Prescription Medication Knowledge Base » Flovent 220 » Medic Alert

Medic Alert

Question:

Hi Relating to Medic Alert bracelets: Does anyone else wear them? I have moderate to severe asthma, and am on periodic bursts of prednisone, but not on any maintainance doses. I also use flovent 220 4 puffs a day. Does anyone think this would be a situation requiring one – and if so what would it say? Asthma, corticosteroid use? I don’t have a clue, although some friends have suggested I should wear one. Thanks for any help. Sherry

Response:

I wear a Medic Alert necklace, with the medallion hanging in back. The engraving just says ‘asthma’ plus an ID # plus a phone # to call for more info. My personal info and drug useage is on file with Medic Alert. I am on Low dose inhaled steroids (6 pf Vanceril/day). Your dose of Flovent 220 is in the High dose category (3 pf Flovent 220/day) so I would be inclined to add ’steroid dependent’. You are also considered steroid dependent if you have used oral steroids in the last 6-12 mo. The tag could be very useful to emergency personnel if you were in an accident. Ellis

Response:

I’ve got one. My asthma isn’t all that bad, but my parents would prefer that if I end up in an emergency situation, the doctors know that I have asthma and to be aware of that fact. Of course, I’m also allergic to any form of penicillian and any sulfa-type antibiotics, so that’s on there too. I guess all of these are pretty important, so that was my Christmas present last year. When you fill out their paperwork, they ask what medications you take and who your doctors are, along with who to contact. Personally, being away at college (for the next 2 years, anyway) and not having family close, I kind of appreciate the thouroghness of the system. If I were in an accident, or needed emergency care, the bracelet knows more than my friends, and probably more than my parents would remember janet

Response:

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Category: Flovent 220
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Prescription Medication Knowledge Base » Pulmicort And Fflovent » Asthma med, bruising, tattoo

Asthma med, bruising, tattoo

Question:

I know that there has to be others on RAB that have asthma, take inhaled steroids and get tattooed. I am new to the asthma thing, started taking Flovent in Dec. Anyway, some of it’s side effects are thinning of the skin, depleting the body of potassium, and bruising.. I take potassium for leg cramps due to this sometimes, but not on a regular basis. Got 3 hs of tattoo work yesterday on my arm and am very bruised. It started showing up an hr after the tattoo. I KNOW this is the med. so please don’t fault the dear artist who was very light handed as I told him of the possibility of this. I am just kinda shocked that it is this extensive and am concerned that this med is destroying me inside out… the questions: Any tattoo artists with experience with this? Seen it before? Any asthma peoples with experiences similar and any suggestions? My thought is to take my potassium regularly (we have lots more work to do) and hope for the best. Wish I could just quit the meds but I gotta breathe. Tattoo Artists: If ya see inhaled steroids on a release form for medications your customer is taking let them know there is a possibility of bruising. Altho they may already know this from how easily they bruise anyway…. Emily Tessier Under The Surface

Response:

I use a similar product, Pulmicort, and have never experienced such side effects! I actually did a search on Flovent but didn’t find any extensive listings of possible side effects… I know I’ve never heard of these side effects concerning Pulmicort, and I have read a lot about it. I like to know what I’m doing to my body! Perhaps you could talk to your doctor about switching to Pulmicort, if this would alleviate your problems? Ulf

Response:

Did your doctor tell you this? Those would be side effects of steroids administered systemically (not sure about the bruising though, I’ll look it up), not topically. From http://www.rxmed.com/monographs/flovent.html: "Fluticasone is a highly potent glucocorticoid anti-inflammatory steroid with strong topical and negligible systemic activity. When administered by inhalation at therapeutic dosages, it has a direct potent anti-inflammatory action within the lungs, resulting in reduced symptoms and exacerbations of asthma without the adverse effects observed when corticosteroids are administered systemically. (…) A portion of an inhaled dose will be swallowed; however, oral bioavailability of fluticasone approaches zero due to poor absorption and extensive first-pass metabolism. Following oral administration, 87 to 100% of the dose is excreted in the feces (…) Adverse Effects: No major side effects attributable to the use of fluticasone have been reported. (…) Candidiasis: Therapeutic dosages frequently cause the appearance of C. albicans (thrush) in the mouth and throat." This means that the fluticasone you inhale does not enter the bloodstream, and that what you swallow is not taken up to an extent that could cause systemic side effects. There must be a different reason for the bruising. I think you should talk to your doc about this. I checked a German drug reference and it said the same things. I take potassium for leg cramps due to this sometimes, but not on a regular basis.

Leg cramps are often associated with magnesium deficiency also. Nina — http://members.xoom.com/critterwoman Seeing that water is so important for life, it has to be a decision by an intelligent being to make water from H2O and not Oil from H2O. -from alt.atheism.satire

Response:

hmm, I’m asthmatic, tattooed, and until Thursday, had never bruised. I thought my bruising was caused because it is an arm opiece, and the skin on the inner arm is more delicate…also because my arm is a _little_ flabby (lol) and the tattooist had to hold the skin taut….oh well.. carmen (with a beautiful new tattoo on her flabby arm.)xxx — "I feel much better now that I’ve abandoned all hope". – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I know that there has to be others on RAB that have asthma, take inhaled steroids and get tattooed. I am new to the asthma thing, started taking Flovent in Dec. Anyway, some of it’s side effects are thinning of the skin, depleting the body of potassium, and bruising.. Did your doctor tell you this? Those would be side effects of steroids administered systemically (not sure about the bruising though, I’ll look it up), not topically. From http://www.rxmed.com/monographs/flovent.html: "Fluticasone is a highly potent glucocorticoid anti-inflammatory steroid with strong topical and negligible systemic activity. When administered by inhalation at therapeutic dosages, it has a direct potent anti-inflammatory action within the lungs, resulting in reduced symptoms and exacerbations of asthma without the adverse effects observed when corticosteroids are administered systemically. (…) A portion of an inhaled dose will be swallowed; however, oral bioavailability of fluticasone approaches zero due to poor absorption and extensive first-pass metabolism. Following oral administration, 87 to 100% of the dose is excreted in the feces (…) Adverse Effects: No major side effects attributable to the use of fluticasone have been reported. (…) Candidiasis: Therapeutic dosages frequently cause the appearance of C. albicans (thrush) in the mouth and throat." This means that the fluticasone you inhale does not enter the bloodstream, and that what you swallow is not taken up to an extent that could cause systemic side effects. There must be a different reason for the bruising. I think you should talk to your doc about this. I checked a German drug reference and it said the same things. I take potassium for leg cramps due to this sometimes, but not on a regular basis. Leg cramps are often associated with magnesium deficiency also. Nina — http://members.xoom.com/critterwoman Seeing that water is so important for life, it has to be a decision by an intelligent being to make water from H2O and not Oil from H2O. -from alt.atheism.satire

Response:

Your asthma inhaler should not cause you all this harm. I have been on soo many asthma meds, and never a problem like that. I take a pill to, this pill is called singulair (so far has proven itself to be the best controller). This pill makes the body produce less phlegm, and has no steroid properties. I also do asthmacort, and Proventil HFA. all of these are good, and I have never had problems like that. I do infact have problems w the IV steroids, but that is so different. Please ask your doc if you could try the non steroidal pill… it works wonderz! — "~LOBE

Author: admin on
Category: Pulmicort And Fflovent
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Prescription Medication Knowledge Base » Pulmicort And Fflovent » Advair effects

Advair effects

Question:

Advair is a combo drug and you may have better luck with something else. I use Pulmicort and a rescue inhaler and it work well for me as I can adjust the Pulmicort steroid independently. Lane

Response:

My son takes the 500/50 dose every day for a year now and is LOSING weight…what gives? Good question. My Brother-In-Law is taking Serevent and having the same problem and so am I. Just wondering if it is the Serevent.

There are some lung diseases that tend to have weight loss as a side effect, like NTM. See: http://www.ntminfo.com/ Nontuberculous Micobacteria "Common Symptoms of NTM: Loss of Weight and Loss of Appetite – It is not uncommon to lose weight and therefore it is important to be aware of weight changes. Please consult with your doctor and/or a nutritionist to determine how to modify and augment your diet so that you get enough calories to maintain your weight at an ideal level that helps your body fight the illness and keep up your strength. Eat, eat, eat. The mycobacteria may compete with your body for calories. "

Response:

My son takes the 500/50 dose every day for a year now and is LOSING weight…what gives?

Good question. My Brother-In-Law is taking Serevent and having the same problem and so am I. Just wondering if it is the Serevent.

Response:

My son takes the 500/50 dose every day for a year now and is LOSING weight…what gives?

Response:

Steroids should be used in the minimum dose to control the problem.

[Side effects are a function of the dose] National asthma guidelines recommend that a Patient Action plan

be followed, to adjust doses of asthma drugs according to symptoms and peak flow readings. Typically the steroid inhaler dose is doubled and bronchodilator used as needed when peak flow drops into the Yellow Zone [50-80% personal best] http://www.vh.org/Providers/ClinGuide/AsthmaIM/comp1/AssessmentB.html

Periodic Assessment and Monitoring http://www.NationalJewish.org/medfacts/asthma_action_plan.html Ellis

Are peak flow readings really dependable enough to determine when to use steroid inhaler and bronchodilator? I think the way the person feels is more dependable. My first peak flow meter had strange highs, up to 770. Sometimes I felt chest tightness above 600 or might feel good at 300. I called the tollfree product information phone number, and after several steps, they offered a free peak flow meter of a new model, which of course I accepted. That newer peak flow meter is not prone to unreasonable highs, but still is not the whole story. I don’t use it regularly.

Response:

Steroids should be used in the minimum dose to control the problem. [Side effects are a function of the dose] National asthma guidelines recommend that a Patient Action plan be followed, to adjust doses of asthma drugs according to symptoms and peak flow readings. Typically the steroid inhaler dose is doubled and bronchodilator used as needed when peak flow drops into the Yellow Zone [50-80% personal best] http://www.vh.org/Providers/ClinGuide/AsthmaIM/comp1/AssessmentB.html Periodic Assessment and Monitoring http://www.NationalJewish.org/medfacts/asthma_action_plan.html Ellis

Response:

If your other medications control your asthma well – and please do check with your doctor to see that your symptoms are under control to his/her satisfaction as well – then the fact that you can do without an inhaled steroid is good news, indeed. If I were you, I would spend a month or two on the 100/50 Advair before getting off it completely, just to ease the transition, or at least be prepared to go back on it if the need arises. Singulair is a miracle medicine, in my opinion. My son, who suffers from mild asthma, takes Singulair every day of his life now but no other asthma medication on a regular basis. He does use a Serevent diskus beforehand when he knows he’ll have an active day and that does seem to help, and you might consider that option as well. Although I have noticed it is a distinctly unpopular opinion to hold on this newsgroup, there are some people, my son among them, for whom the Serevent component without the Flovent steroid provides effect treatment. (For what it’s worth, I, too, tried Serevent without Flovent but I seem to need them both.) Best of luck with it all. -S- – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have adult onset asthma (come from family where childhood asthma was frequent, usually outgrown) diagnosed 15 years ago. I am 61 and have been on a variety of medications over the years. Right now I am on Uniphyl, singular and about a year ago I switched from two different inhaled medicines (one steroid) to Advair Discus — which is a combined medicine, definitely including an inhaled steroid. It has controlled the asthma very well. However I started gaining weight and am now 35 lbs heavier — all in my stomach, neck and face (funny pouches of fat on the sides of my neck) — definitely cushingoid effects (I have no official diagnosis, only read about it on the internet) Also bruising red easily. I was on 500/50 dosage until about a month ago. I was on a pretty rigorous exercise/diet program for 6 weeks and lost not a lb. I finally determined that the steroids were the cause — though I have been told that the inhaled steroids did not have side effects. About a month ago I asked my doctor to reduce the dosage and went down to the 250/50 About 10 days ago I went to the 100 and do not have any significant changes. Two days ago I decided to skip several days to see if I could do without. I can tell no difference (I expected to wake up wheezing in the middle of the night and have to use my Ventolin). I am calling my allergist tomorrow to make an appointment with him. Maybe my pretty serious asthma is better (have been doing a lot of breath work and yoga) and maybe I can stop the steroids. I feel like I have a bowling ball instead of a stomach and my waistline has disappeared. On the otherhand I have pretty serious asthma — had to be hospitalized 4 years ago with an attack and have had pneumonia twice in the last 3 years. I surely don’t want to lose control of the asthma, but am hoping there is some alternative to the daily use of inhaled steroids. Sorry this is so long. My first chance to talk to my peers about our common bond — asthma. . — Judy Turnipseed

Response:

I have adult onset asthma (come from family where childhood asthma was frequent, usually outgrown) diagnosed 15 years ago. I am 61 and have been on a variety of medications over the years. Right now I am on Uniphyl, singular and about a year ago I switched from two different inhaled medicines (one steroid) to Advair Discus — which is a combined medicine, definitely including an inhaled steroid. It has controlled the asthma very well. However I started gaining weight and am now 35 lbs heavier — all in my stomach, neck and face (funny pouches of fat on the sides of my neck) — definitely cushingoid effects (I have no official diagnosis, only read about it on the internet) Also bruising red easily. I was on 500/50 dosage until about a month ago. I was on a pretty rigorous exercise/diet program for 6 weeks and lost not a lb. I finally determined that the steroids were the cause — though I have been told that the inhaled steroids did not have side effects. About a month ago I asked my doctor to reduce the dosage and went down to the 250/50 About 10 days ago I went to the 100 and do not have any significant changes. Two days ago I decided to skip several days to see if I could do without. I can tell no difference (I expected to wake up wheezing in the middle of the night and have to use my Ventolin). I am calling my allergist tomorrow to make an appointment with him. Maybe my pretty serious asthma is better (have been doing a lot of breath work and yoga) and maybe I can stop the steroids. I feel like I have a bowling ball instead of a stomach and my waistline has disappeared. On the otherhand I have pretty serious asthma — had to be hospitalized 4 years ago with an attack and have had pneumonia twice in the last 3 years. I surely don’t want to lose control of the asthma, but am hoping there is some alternative to the daily use of inhaled steroids. Sorry this is so long. My first chance to talk to my peers about our common bond — asthma. . — Judy Turnipseed

Response:

Author: admin on
Category: Pulmicort And Fflovent
Tags: 1

Prescription Medication Knowledge Base » Zoloft For Anxiety » Medication Advice….

Medication Advice….

Question:

Thanks… Right now, I am doing quite well handling my depression / not having depression. I have surounded myself with as many supportive people as possible, and I am doing everything I can to deal with issues cognitivly… However, If I dont get this pain a little better under controal, I am afarid that I might slip into a state of depression, which I of course would perfer not to, as I have worked so hard to get out of it…. jamie

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As Mel has mentioned, Jamie, and Gabe indicates here, the advice we give you and others is from our own experiences and different meds affect people in different ways. In my experience, Buspar was a no-winner for anxiety! I have been on Doxepin (a TCA) for years, and it works better than anything else I have taken for anxiety. In fact, that was what it was first prescribed for: anxiety and an aid for sleep. Some of the older TCAs are better than some of the newer meds, in my own opinion, and certainly cheaper. For me, an exception would be Elavil, which my Rheumy had me on just to see how I would do on that vs. Doxepin. After a couple months, I was back to Doxepin, so that is my med of choice. I must add that I have Clinical Depression, so your experience may be different, but anxiety goes hand in hand with depression, of which I’m well aware! So, the 2 antidepressants that I take are Paxil during the day and Doxepin in late afternoon/evening/bedtime. Both work well for me. Nanny Hey, I’m a bit confused about what you are on but I’ve had a lot of experience with TCAs. First of all, ditch Elavil (amitryptilene). It is the king of side effects, a dinosaur. Nortryp really is a toss-up. It has helped a lot of people and it is marked for pain relief. It hits NE with a negligible effect on serotonin. It’s pretty good for anxiety. My experience is — and I’ve seen this echoed in the anxiety group — if you are having anxiety don’t be afraid of the TCAs. Nortryp is prob the best and most balanced. As for going off Effexor it’s tough to tell. I can tell you that wellbutrin in prob 90 percent of people worsens anxiety. Effexor withdrawl is tough and long-lasting for many. So it could be the source of the anxiety if you hadn’t really had it before. I don’t know jack about Cymbalta except that it hits NE faster and at lower doses than Effexor. Supposedly. This is all anecdotal- based on some reseach- but mainly other people’s and my experiences. Finally, sometimes you really have to choose btwn depression and anxiety. Like WB for example, won’t do shit for anxiety, but may lift you into a less depressed, more anxious state. So you have to think?? There is prob no perfect solution, which is worse. I find anxiety much easier to live with honestly. There’s excersise of course, or just getting used to it. As for sexual side effects, the serotonin drugs hit that harder than the NE dopamine drugs. And buspar is a total mystery for me. Gabe

Response:

Years ago I was prescribed Zoloft for Anxiety and light OCD symptoms. Buspar was later added on top of the Zoloft for anxiety…but I can’t say it did anything. To me, it was like taking vitamin C. However, being many years ago, I don’t remember how large the dose was.

Response:

Hi, Matt, I was on Buspar many years ago for a short period of time for anxiety also. I also felt it didn’t do much for my anxiety level. Then I was put on Xanax for many years and now onto Klonopin. I prefer the Klonopin, though it isn’t as fast acting as Xanax, since it stays in the body longer. I take 1 mg twice daily and it does help a lot. smiles, Elise

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Years ago I was prescribed Zoloft for Anxiety and light OCD symptoms. Buspar was later added on top of the Zoloft for anxiety…but I can’t say it did anything. To me, it was like taking vitamin C. However, being many years ago, I don’t remember how large the dose was.

Response:

Research has shown in a couple of studies that high doses of buspar can actually recruit anxiety, whereas the lower doses did not. I find that the people who are on less than (or equal to) 30 mgs a day seem happiest with it.

I certinally can use it at lower doses. Then if I find it doesnt do anything then I can drop it… I think that makes sence, because getting up to 30mg a day should not take too long to get used to… Thanks Jamie

Response:

Actually for some people, the stimulant meds DO have anxiolytic effect, so it’s really not fair to say that they "don’t do shit" for anxiety. That is true for "most people", but for some, stimulants are calming, which is almost diagnostic for ADD. G

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – HI, I am off of Effexor now, with my doctors permission. Only thing I have really noticed in that my Anxeity is up a little bit, and I cant decide if this is: a. a withdrawl symptom from effexor b. effexor was doing a little more to help with my anxeity than I thought…. but anyway, I am feeling pretty decent, and really not too depressed,,, I guess a little stressed, but not to depressed at all… The initial plan I made with my doctor was to start wellbutrin 150XL and buspar now. Since I made that plan, I have seen the rheumy, who wants me to try, nortriptline or Amitriptyline, and after discussing this with several of you, it sounds like this is worth a try… Here is where I am stuck… I don’t want to take more meds than I have to… I know I can always dc them later, but,,, I am wondering if I should start WB and buspar if I know I am going to start a TCA? The question I have that I dont really know the answer to at all is this, Can WB and buspar help reduce the side effects of a TCA the way they can help reduce the side effects of a SSRI? Would it be reasonalbe to try WB, buspar and a TCA all together and see what happends, and reduce if necessary? I really really really want to avoid the majority of sexual side effects if I can, as I am quite sure I will be depressed from that if I have major sexular side effects… I know there will be a transition period where I have to take time to get used to the tca, but I cant live on a ongoing basis (espically long term, as using the tca for fibro could be a life long type of thing) with major sexual disfunction…… One last question is this, Is it worth thinking about trying cymbalta first before the TCA, or not since I have already tried effexor? I know larry commented on this and said that the TCA’s can be quite different from effexor, but does the same hold true for cymbalta, I am guessing it does since they are in the same class (effexor and cymbalta = ssnri) but I have heard thatt cymbalta is a lot better with pain and such from some people….. Any thoughs on this? Sorry to make this so confusing…. Thanks again for your time, and your comments on this…. Jamie

Response:

Gabe’s statement about Cymbalta is correct, however the mechanism by which it has impact on pains (neuropathic) is different than the TCA group, and it’s a little harder to tolerate initially than Effexor. I would like to hear what the definition of the pains / symptoms are, prior to commenting on this much more.

My pain has been wide spread, in most all of my muscles, but much more severe is some than others. My legs, often ache, even with rest, then they can progress to sharp pain with exersize. My hands, arms sholders are in pain with a minumal amount of movement. Also have neck and back pain, which doesnt usally stay as bad because the chiro treats that… Well it would be WB, buspar, and one of the TCA’s… Plus tricor, and a painkiller like ultram (but ultram is not working well now), and hopefull with the pain more undercontroal, I will be less fatigured and we can reduce / drop dexidrine. There is also inderal for migranes, that has helped sooo much that I dont really see droping that… jamie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I do not agree that one has to choose betw. being depressed or being anxious, nor does the medical community at large. From a strictly statistical standpoint, anxiety is indeed "easier to live with", given the mortality rates of depression, however, again, see above. Buspar has little, if any effect on sexual function, but it also takes a fair amount of time for it to start working – it’s a "partial serotonin agonist", and takes usually 4 to 6 weeks to really start working well – not going to cover that wellbutrin awfully well. Honestly, I’m not so sure I really like this plan Jamie. What is the total med list going to be? Gary Hey, I’m a bit confused about what you are on but I’ve had a lot of experience with TCAs. First of all, ditch Elavil (amitryptilene). It is the king of side effects, a dinosaur. Nortryp really is a toss-up. It has helped a lot of people and it is marked for pain relief. It hits NE with a negligible effect on serotonin. It’s pretty good for anxiety. My experience is — and I’ve seen this echoed in the anxiety group — if you are having anxiety don’t be afraid of the TCAs. Nortryp is prob the best and most balanced. As for going off Effexor it’s tough to tell. I can tell you that wellbutrin in prob 90 percent of people worsens anxiety. Effexor withdrawl is tough and long-lasting for many. So it could be the source of the anxiety if you hadn’t really had it before. I don’t know jack about Cymbalta except that it hits NE faster and at lower doses than Effexor. Supposedly. This is all anecdotal- based on some reseach- but mainly other people’s and my experiences. Finally, sometimes you really have to choose btwn depression and anxiety. Like WB for example, won’t do shit for anxiety, but may lift you into a less depressed, more anxious state. So you have to think?? There is prob no perfect solution, which is worse. I find anxiety much easier to live with honestly. There’s excersise of course, or just getting used to it. As for sexual side effects, the serotonin drugs hit that harder than the NE dopamine drugs. And buspar is a total mystery for me. Gabe

Response:

Atleast anxeity responds very quickly to benzos…. I have not heard of WB causing any weight gain… Wonder if the buspar is causing that?? Jamie

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Crossposted reply: Gabe is correct about wellbutrin and anxiety for sure. I personally would not want to start that if I was coming off Effexor, but you and your MD Elavil and Pamelor both do the same thing in terms of pain relief, so it’s really a matter of side effect toleration, and yes, Elavil causes more. Usually the starting dose is around 10 mgs of Elavil for sodium channel blockade/NMDA antagonism for chronic pain mgmt. Gabe’s statement about Cymbalta is correct, however the mechanism by which it has impact on pains (neuropathic) is different than the TCA group, and it’s a little harder to tolerate initially than Effexor. I would like to hear what the definition of the pains / symptoms are, prior to commenting on this much more. I do not agree that one has to choose betw. being depressed or being anxious, nor does the medical community at large. From a strictly statistical standpoint, anxiety is indeed "easier to live with", given the mortality rates of depression, however, again, see above. Buspar has little, if any effect on sexual function, but it also takes a fair amount of time for it to start working – it’s a "partial serotonin agonist", and takes usually 4 to 6 weeks to really start working well – not going to cover that wellbutrin awfully well. Honestly, I’m not so sure I really like this plan Jamie. What is the total med list going to be? Gary I’ll add that from what happened to me and others is that Wellbutrin and Buspar. WILL MAKE YOU FAT! Now that is depressing! And I agree with Gary that Anxiety is easier to control than depression. (IMHO) SnL Hey, I’m a bit confused about what you are on but I’ve had a lot of experience with TCAs. First of all, ditch Elavil (amitryptilene). It is the king of side effects, a dinosaur. Nortryp really is a toss-up. It has helped a lot of people and it is marked for pain relief. It hits NE with a negligible effect on serotonin. It’s pretty good for anxiety. My experience is — and I’ve seen this echoed in the anxiety group — if you are having anxiety don’t be afraid of the TCAs. Nortryp is prob the best and most balanced. As for going off Effexor it’s tough to tell. I can tell you that wellbutrin in prob 90 percent of people worsens anxiety. Effexor withdrawl is tough and long-lasting for many. So it could be the source of the anxiety if you hadn’t really had it before. I don’t know jack about Cymbalta except that it hits NE faster and at lower doses than Effexor. Supposedly. This is all anecdotal- based on some reseach- but mainly other people’s and my experiences. Finally, sometimes you really have to choose btwn depression and anxiety. Like WB for example, won’t do shit for anxiety, but may lift you into a less depressed, more anxious state. So you have to think?? There is prob no perfect solution, which is worse. I find anxiety much easier to live with honestly. There’s excersise of course, or just getting used to it. As for sexual side effects, the serotonin drugs hit that harder than the NE dopamine drugs. And buspar is a total mystery for me. Gabe

Response:

As Mel has mentioned, Jamie, and Gabe indicates here, the advice we give you and others is from our own experiences and different meds affect people in different ways. In my experience, Buspar was a no-winner for anxiety! I have been on Doxepin (a TCA) for years, and it works better than anything else I have taken for anxiety. In fact, that was what it was first prescribed for: anxiety and an aid for sleep. Some of the older TCAs are better than some of the newer meds, in my own opinion, and certainly cheaper. For me, an exception would be Elavil, which my Rheumy had me on just to see how I would do on that vs. Doxepin. After a couple months, I was back to Doxepin, so that is my med of choice. I must add that I have Clinical Depression, so your experience may be different, but anxiety goes hand in hand with depression, of which I’m well aware! So, the 2 antidepressants that I take are Paxil during the day and Doxepin in late afternoon/evening/bedtime. Both work well for me. Nanny

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey, I’m a bit confused about what you are on but I’ve had a lot of experience with TCAs. First of all, ditch Elavil (amitryptilene). It is the king of side effects, a dinosaur. Nortryp really is a toss-up. It has helped a lot of people and it is marked for pain relief. It hits NE with a negligible effect on serotonin. It’s pretty good for anxiety. My experience is — and I’ve seen this echoed in the anxiety group — if you are having anxiety don’t be afraid of the TCAs. Nortryp is prob the best and most balanced. As for going off Effexor it’s tough to tell. I can tell you that wellbutrin in prob 90 percent of people worsens anxiety. Effexor withdrawl is tough and long-lasting for many. So it could be the source of the anxiety if you hadn’t really had it before. I don’t know jack about Cymbalta except that it hits NE faster and at lower doses than Effexor. Supposedly. This is all anecdotal- based on some reseach- but mainly other people’s and my experiences. Finally, sometimes you really have to choose btwn depression and anxiety. Like WB for example, won’t do shit for anxiety, but may lift you into a less depressed, more anxious state. So you have to think?? There is prob no perfect solution, which is worse. I find anxiety much easier to live with honestly. There’s excersise of course, or just getting used to it. As for sexual side effects, the serotonin drugs hit that harder than the NE dopamine drugs. And buspar is a total mystery for me. Gabe

Response:

No, buspar is weight neutral. As a partial agonist, it functions as a sort of "dimmer switch" (like you might find in a dining room for the light fixture). If you don’t have enough serotonin, it will boost it up some, and if you have too much it will dampen the serotonin down. It has limitations on how high or low it can change the levels though, and is really not a particularly great medicine (for a lot of people – maybe not you though…) for anxiety control. Psychiatrists tell me that it yields particularly poor results in patients who have previously taken benzodiazepines for anxiety. The most common side-effects that people tell me they get from taking it – a disconcerting feeling of dizziness, some nausea, inability to tolerate loud or sharp sounds (all these usually go away in about a month or so) and almost everyone tells me that this drug causes them vivid dreams, often frightening and very colorful and/or violent. I have never had a single person tell me that this drug caused them to gain weight – there may be people who have though, I just haven’t met them. Prescribing literature describes weight gain as "infrequent", which means it happens more often than if it was cited as "rare". The dizziness is BY FAR the thing that is most bitterly complained about, and almost virtually universal. Research has shown in a couple of studies that high doses of buspar can actually recruit anxiety, whereas the lower doses did not. I find that the people who are on less than (or equal to) 30 mgs a day seem happiest with it. Gary

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Atleast anxeity responds very quickly to benzos…. I have not heard of WB causing any weight gain… Wonder if the buspar is causing that?? Jamie Crossposted reply: Gabe is correct about wellbutrin and anxiety for sure. I personally would not want to start that if I was coming off Effexor, but you and your MD Elavil and Pamelor both do the same thing in terms of pain relief, so it’s really a matter of side effect toleration, and yes, Elavil causes more. Usually the starting dose is around 10 mgs of Elavil for sodium channel blockade/NMDA antagonism for chronic pain mgmt. Gabe’s statement about Cymbalta is correct, however the mechanism by which it has impact on pains (neuropathic) is different than the TCA group, and it’s a little harder to tolerate initially than Effexor. I would like to hear what the definition of the pains / symptoms are, prior to commenting on this much more. I do not agree that one has to choose betw. being depressed or being anxious, nor does the medical community at large. From a strictly statistical standpoint, anxiety is indeed "easier to live with", given the mortality rates of depression, however, again, see above. Buspar has little, if any effect on sexual function, but it also takes a fair amount of time for it to start working – it’s a "partial serotonin agonist", and takes usually 4 to 6 weeks to really start working well – not going to cover that wellbutrin awfully well. Honestly, I’m not so sure I really like this plan Jamie. What is the total med list going to be? Gary I’ll add that from what happened to me and others is that Wellbutrin and Buspar. WILL MAKE YOU FAT! Now that is depressing! And I agree with Gary that Anxiety is easier to control than depression. (IMHO) SnL Hey, I’m a bit confused about what you are on but I’ve had a lot of experience with TCAs. First of all, ditch Elavil (amitryptilene). It is the king of side effects, a dinosaur. Nortryp really is a toss-up. It has helped a lot of people and it is marked for pain relief. It hits NE with a negligible effect on serotonin. It’s pretty good for anxiety. My experience is — and I’ve seen this echoed in the anxiety group — if you are having anxiety don’t be afraid of the TCAs. Nortryp is prob the best and most balanced. As for going off Effexor it’s tough to tell. I can tell you that wellbutrin in prob 90 percent of people worsens anxiety. Effexor withdrawl is tough and long-lasting for many. So it could be the source of the anxiety if you hadn’t really had it before. I don’t know jack about Cymbalta except that it hits NE faster and at lower doses than Effexor. Supposedly. This is all anecdotal- based on some reseach- but mainly other people’s and my experiences. Finally, sometimes you really have to choose btwn depression and anxiety. Like WB for example, won’t do shit for anxiety, but may lift you into a less depressed, more anxious state. So you have to think?? There is prob no perfect solution, which is worse. I find anxiety much easier to live with honestly. There’s excersise of course, or just getting used to it. As for sexual side effects, the serotonin drugs hit that harder than the NE dopamine drugs. And buspar is a total mystery for me. Gabe

Response:

I am not sure they are quite calming, but they normally dont make my anxeity freak out like I would have though they would. The pschylogists have always diagnosised me with ADD and GAD, so maybe I am getting a patial benefit from the stimulant in terms of anxeity, or atleast that might explain why it doesnt make it much worse… jamie

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Actually for some people, the stimulant meds DO have anxiolytic effect, so it’s really not fair to say that they "don’t do shit" for anxiety. That is true for "most people", but for some, stimulants are calming, which is almost diagnostic for ADD. G HI, I am off of Effexor now, with my doctors permission. Only thing I have really noticed in that my Anxeity is up a little bit, and I cant decide if this is: a. a withdrawl symptom from effexor b. effexor was doing a little more to help with my anxeity than I thought…. but anyway, I am feeling pretty decent, and really not too depressed,,, I guess a little stressed, but not to depressed at all… The initial plan I made with my doctor was to start wellbutrin 150XL and buspar now. Since I made that plan, I have seen the rheumy, who wants me to try, nortriptline or Amitriptyline, and after discussing this with several of you, it sounds like this is worth a try… Here is where I am stuck… I don’t want to take more meds than I have to… I know I can always dc them later, but,,, I am wondering if I should start WB and buspar if I know I am going to start a TCA? The question I have that I dont really know the answer to at all is this, Can WB and buspar help reduce the side effects of a TCA the way they can help reduce the side effects of a SSRI? Would it be reasonalbe to try WB, buspar and a TCA all together and see what happends, and reduce if necessary? I really really really want to avoid the majority of sexual side effects if I can, as I am quite sure I will be depressed from that if I have major sexular side effects… I know there will be a transition period where I have to take time to get used to the tca, but I cant live on a ongoing basis (espically long term, as using the tca for fibro could be a life long type of thing) with major sexual disfunction…… One last question is this, Is it worth thinking about trying cymbalta first before the TCA, or not since I have already tried effexor? I know larry commented on this and said that the TCA’s can be quite different from effexor, but does the same hold true for cymbalta, I am guessing it does since they are in the same class (effexor and cymbalta = ssnri) but I have heard thatt cymbalta is a lot better with pain and such from some people….. Any thoughs on this? Sorry to make this so confusing…. Thanks again for your time, and your comments on this…. Jamie

Response:

HI, I am off of Effexor now, with my doctors permission. Only thing I have really noticed in that my Anxeity is up a little bit, and I cant decide if this is: a. a withdrawl symptom from effexor b. effexor was doing a little more to help with my anxeity than I thought…. but anyway, I am feeling pretty decent, and really not too depressed,,, I guess a little stressed, but not to depressed at all… The initial plan I made with my doctor was to start wellbutrin 150XL and buspar now. Since I made that plan, I have seen the rheumy, who wants me to try, nortriptline or Amitriptyline, and after discussing this with several of you, it sounds like this is worth a try… Here is where I am stuck… I don’t want to take more meds than I have to… I know I can always dc them later, but,,, I am wondering if I should start WB and buspar if I know I am going to start a TCA? The question I have that I dont really know the answer to at all is this, Can WB and buspar help reduce the side effects of a TCA the way they can help reduce the side effects of a SSRI? Would it be reasonalbe to try WB, buspar and a TCA all together and see what happends, and reduce if necessary? I really really really want to avoid the majority of sexual side effects if I can, as I am quite sure I will be depressed from that if I have major sexular side effects… I know there will be a transition period where I have to take time to get used to the tca, but I cant live on a ongoing basis (espically long term, as using the tca for fibro could be a life long type of thing) with major sexual disfunction…… One last question is this, Is it worth thinking about trying cymbalta first before the TCA, or not since I have already tried effexor? I know larry commented on this and said that the TCA’s can be quite different from effexor, but does the same hold true for cymbalta, I am guessing it does since they are in the same class (effexor and cymbalta = ssnri) but I have heard thatt cymbalta is a lot better with pain and such from some people….. Any thoughs on this? Sorry to make this so confusing…. Thanks again for your time, and your comments on this…. Jamie

Response:

Just a guess: Probably, except that the TCA is likely to have more unpleasant side effects than the SSRI. Would it be reasonalbe to try WB, buspar and a TCA all together and see what happends, and reduce if necessary?

As much sense as it would to take an SSRI with the others and tailer the others. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I really really really want to avoid the majority of sexual side effects if I can, as I am quite sure I will be depressed from that if I have major sexular side effects… I know there will be a transition period where I have to take time to get used to the tca, but I cant live on a ongoing basis (espically long term, as using the tca for fibro could be a life long type of thing) with major sexual disfunction…… One last question is this, Is it worth thinking about trying cymbalta first before the TCA, or not since I have already tried effexor? I know larry commented on this and said that the TCA’s can be quite different from effexor, but does the same hold true for cymbalta, I am guessing it does since they are in the same class (effexor and cymbalta = ssnri) but I have heard thatt cymbalta is a lot better with pain and such from some people….. Any thoughs on this? Sorry to make this so confusing…. Thanks again for your time, and your comments on this…. Jamie

– Nom dePlume, Ph.D. Why, yes, in fact, I am a rocket scientist. Guide to Medications for Mental Illness: http://www.geocities.com/nomdeplume1000/ =====

Response:

Hey, I’m a bit confused about what you are on but I’ve had a lot of experience with TCAs. First of all, ditch Elavil (amitryptilene). It is the king of side effects, a dinosaur. Nortryp really is a toss-up. It has helped a lot of people and it is marked for pain relief. It hits NE with a negligible effect on serotonin. It’s pretty good for anxiety. My experience is — and I’ve seen this echoed in the anxiety group — if you are having anxiety don’t be afraid of the TCAs. Nortryp is prob the best and most balanced. As for going off Effexor it’s tough to tell. I can tell you that wellbutrin in prob 90 percent of people worsens anxiety. Effexor withdrawl is tough and long-lasting for many. So it could be the source of the anxiety if you hadn’t really had it before. I don’t know jack about Cymbalta except that it hits NE faster and at lower doses than Effexor. Supposedly. This is all anecdotal- based on some reseach- but mainly other people’s and my experiences. Finally, sometimes you really have to choose btwn depression and anxiety. Like WB for example, won’t do shit for anxiety, but may lift you into a less depressed, more anxious state. So you have to think?? There is prob no perfect solution, which is worse. I find anxiety much easier to live with honestly. There’s excersise of course, or just getting used to it. As for sexual side effects, the serotonin drugs hit that harder than the NE dopamine drugs. And buspar is a total mystery for me. Gabe

Response:

Gabe is correct about wellbutrin and anxiety for sure. I personally would not want to start that if I was coming off Effexor, but you and your MD must Elavil and Pamelor both do the same thing in terms of pain relief, so it’s really a matter of side effect toleration, and yes, Elavil causes more. Usually the starting dose is around 10 mgs of Elavil for sodium channel blockade/NMDA antagonism for chronic pain mgmt. Gabe’s statement about Cymbalta is correct, however the mechanism by which it has impact on pains (neuropathic) is different than the TCA group, and it’s a little harder to tolerate initially than Effexor. I would like to hear what the definition of the pains / symptoms are, prior to commenting on this much more. I do not agree that one has to choose betw. being depressed or being anxious, nor does the medical community at large. From a strictly statistical standpoint, anxiety is indeed "easier to live with", given the mortality rates of depression, however, again, see above. Buspar has little, if any effect on sexual function, but it also takes a fair amount of time for it to start working – it’s a "partial serotonin agonist", and takes usually 4 to 6 weeks to really start working well – not going to cover that wellbutrin awfully well. Honestly, I’m not so sure I really like this plan Jamie. What is the total med list going to be? Gary

Response:

Crossposted reply:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Gabe is correct about wellbutrin and anxiety for sure. I personally would not want to start that if I was coming off Effexor, but you and your MD Elavil and Pamelor both do the same thing in terms of pain relief, so it’s really a matter of side effect toleration, and yes, Elavil causes more. Usually the starting dose is around 10 mgs of Elavil for sodium channel blockade/NMDA antagonism for chronic pain mgmt. Gabe’s statement about Cymbalta is correct, however the mechanism by which it has impact on pains (neuropathic) is different than the TCA group, and it’s a little harder to tolerate initially than Effexor. I would like to hear what the definition of the pains / symptoms are, prior to commenting on this much more. I do not agree that one has to choose betw. being depressed or being anxious, nor does the medical community at large. From a strictly statistical standpoint, anxiety is indeed "easier to live with", given the mortality rates of depression, however, again, see above. Buspar has little, if any effect on sexual function, but it also takes a fair amount of time for it to start working – it’s a "partial serotonin agonist", and takes usually 4 to 6 weeks to really start working well – not going to cover that wellbutrin awfully well. Honestly, I’m not so sure I really like this plan Jamie. What is the total med list going to be? Gary

I’ll add that from what happened to me and others is that Wellbutrin and Buspar. WILL MAKE YOU FAT! Now that is depressing! And I agree with Gary that Anxiety is easier to control than depression. (IMHO) SnL – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey, I’m a bit confused about what you are on but I’ve had a lot of experience with TCAs. First of all, ditch Elavil (amitryptilene). It is the king of side effects, a dinosaur. Nortryp really is a toss-up. It has helped a lot of people and it is marked for pain relief. It hits NE with a negligible effect on serotonin. It’s pretty good for anxiety. My experience is — and I’ve seen this echoed in the anxiety group — if you are having anxiety don’t be afraid of the TCAs. Nortryp is prob the best and most balanced. As for going off Effexor it’s tough to tell. I can tell you that wellbutrin in prob 90 percent of people worsens anxiety. Effexor withdrawl is tough and long-lasting for many. So it could be the source of the anxiety if you hadn’t really had it before. I don’t know jack about Cymbalta except that it hits NE faster and at lower doses than Effexor. Supposedly. This is all anecdotal- based on some reseach- but mainly other people’s and my experiences. Finally, sometimes you really have to choose btwn depression and anxiety. Like WB for example, won’t do shit for anxiety, but may lift you into a less depressed, more anxious state. So you have to think?? There is prob no perfect solution, which is worse. I find anxiety much easier to live with honestly. There’s excersise of course, or just getting used to it. As for sexual side effects, the serotonin drugs hit that harder than the NE dopamine drugs. And buspar is a total mystery for me. Gabe

Response:

Author: admin on
Category: Zoloft For Anxiety
Tags: Zoloft For Anxiety

Prescription Medication Knowledge Base » Zoloft Sertraline » Zyprexa(olanzapine) and Zoloft(sertraline) in schizophrenia and major depression.

Zyprexa(olanzapine) and Zoloft(sertraline) in schizophrenia and major depression.

Question:

My mistake. As from 1/1/2004 the concessional rate is $3.80 and the general rate is $23.70. "." <asspu…@punkass.com

wrote in message

news:MPG.1adf1ed2a3199a6b989740@news.individual.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Tim Dicinoski wrote… me $2.80 per prescription as a pensioner (it would be $15.60 as a

general

patient. Isn’t it $3.60 and $22.50? — Regards, .

Response:

Yes, I am Australian. "ABroaD" <lhj8…@hanafos.com

wrote in message

news:c52s0m$f10$1@news.hananet.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> are you an australian? > "Tim Dicinoski" <timino…@dodo.com.au

wrote in message

> news:407406f8@news.comindico.com.au… > > I was hospitalised on Christmas Eve after taking 100 paracetamol during a

major psychotic episode with paranoid delusions. (It’s amazing I still have a functioning liver). I am now taking Zyprexa (olanzapine) 5mg b.d. and Zoloft (sertraline)100mg b.d., and feel better than I have in years.

The

only side effects I have experienced are dry mouth and (slight) sexual dysfunction. I was previously on Risperdal (risperidone) which caused

extremely unpleasant case of tardive dyskinesia & extrapyramidal disorders. I simply cannot recommend these medications (Risperdal & Zoloft) too highly. And thanks to the Australian Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme, they only cost me $2.80 per prescription as a pensioner (it would be $15.60 as a

general

patient. Tim Dicinoski.

Response:

I was hospitalised on Christmas Eve after taking 100 paracetamol during a major psychotic episode with paranoid delusions. (It’s amazing I still have a functioning liver). I am now taking Zyprexa (olanzapine) 5mg b.d. and Zoloft (sertraline)100mg b.d., and feel better than I have in years. The only side effects I have experienced are dry mouth and (slight) sexual dysfunction. I was previously on Risperdal (risperidone) which caused an extremely unpleasant case of tardive dyskinesia & extrapyramidal disorders. I simply cannot recommend these medications (Risperdal & Zoloft) too highly. And thanks to the Australian Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme, they only cost me $2.80 per prescription as a pensioner (it would be $15.60 as a general patient. Tim Dicinoski.

Response:

Tim Dicinoski wrote…

me $2.80 per prescription as a pensioner (it would be $15.60 as a general patient.

Isn’t it $3.60 and $22.50? — Regards, .

Response:

Paracetamol is also known as acetaminophen. "Tim Dicinoski" <timino…@dodo.com.au

wrote in message

news:407406f8@news.comindico.com.au… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

I was hospitalised on Christmas Eve after taking 100 paracetamol during a major psychotic episode with paranoid delusions. (It’s amazing I still

have

a functioning liver). I am now taking Zyprexa (olanzapine) 5mg b.d. and Zoloft (sertraline)100mg b.d., and feel better than I have in years. The only side effects I have experienced are dry mouth and (slight) sexual dysfunction. I was previously on Risperdal (risperidone) which caused an extremely unpleasant case of tardive dyskinesia & extrapyramidal

disorders.

I simply cannot recommend these medications (Risperdal & Zoloft) too

highly.

And thanks to the Australian Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme, they only

cost

me $2.80 per prescription as a pensioner (it would be $15.60 as a general patient. Tim Dicinoski.

Response:

How much Risperdal were you taking, that allegedly led to the problems? "Tim Dicinoski" <timino…@dodo.com.au

wrote in message

news:407406f8@news.comindico.com.au… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

I was hospitalised on Christmas Eve after taking 100 paracetamol during a major psychotic episode with paranoid delusions. (It’s amazing I still

have

a functioning liver). I am now taking Zyprexa (olanzapine) 5mg b.d. and Zoloft (sertraline)100mg b.d., and feel better than I have in years. The only side effects I have experienced are dry mouth and (slight) sexual dysfunction. I was previously on Risperdal (risperidone) which caused an extremely unpleasant case of tardive dyskinesia & extrapyramidal

disorders.

I simply cannot recommend these medications (Risperdal & Zoloft) too

highly.

And thanks to the Australian Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme, they only

cost

me $2.80 per prescription as a pensioner (it would be $15.60 as a general patient. Tim Dicinoski.

Response:

are you an australian? "Tim Dicinoski" <timino…@dodo.com.au

wrote in message

news:407406f8@news.comindico.com.au… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

I was hospitalised on Christmas Eve after taking 100 paracetamol during a major psychotic episode with paranoid delusions. (It’s amazing I still

have

a functioning liver). I am now taking Zyprexa (olanzapine) 5mg b.d. and Zoloft (sertraline)100mg b.d., and feel better than I have in years. The only side effects I have experienced are dry mouth and (slight) sexual dysfunction. I was previously on Risperdal (risperidone) which caused an extremely unpleasant case of tardive dyskinesia & extrapyramidal

disorders.

I simply cannot recommend these medications (Risperdal & Zoloft) too

highly.

And thanks to the Australian Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme, they only

cost

me $2.80 per prescription as a pensioner (it would be $15.60 as a general patient. Tim Dicinoski.

Response:

Initially 1 mg b.d., increasing to 3 mg b.d. by week 4. And the dyskinesia was hardly alleged: people thought I was a spastic. "Cubit" <n…@no.not

wrote in message

news:jm3dc.19516$LG5.13631@newssvr27.news.prodigy.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> How much Risperdal were you taking, that allegedly led to the problems? > "Tim Dicinoski" <timino…@dodo.com.au

wrote in message

> news:407406f8@news.comindico.com.au… > > I was hospitalised on Christmas Eve after taking 100 paracetamol during a

major psychotic episode with paranoid delusions. (It’s amazing I still have a functioning liver). I am now taking Zyprexa (olanzapine) 5mg b.d. and Zoloft (sertraline)100mg b.d., and feel better than I have in years.

The

only side effects I have experienced are dry mouth and (slight) sexual dysfunction. I was previously on Risperdal (risperidone) which caused

extremely unpleasant case of tardive dyskinesia & extrapyramidal disorders. I simply cannot recommend these medications (Risperdal & Zoloft) too highly. And thanks to the Australian Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme, they only cost me $2.80 per prescription as a pensioner (it would be $15.60 as a

general

patient. Tim Dicinoski.

Response:

I am currently on a very low dose of Risperdal, thank God. —– – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Cubit wrote:

How much Risperdal were you taking, that allegedly led to the problems?

Response:

good! join Madites Intelligence Agency! "Tim Dicinoski" <timino…@dodo.com.au

wrote in message

news:4074fc1e@news.comindico.com.au… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Yes, I am Australian. > "ABroaD" <lhj8…@hanafos.com

wrote in message

> news:c52s0m$f10$1@news.hananet.net… > > are you an australian? > > "Tim Dicinoski" <timino…@dodo.com.au

wrote in message

> > news:407406f8@news.comindico.com.au… > > > I was hospitalised on Christmas Eve after taking 100 paracetamol during

a major psychotic episode with paranoid delusions. (It’s amazing I

still

have a functioning liver). I am now taking Zyprexa (olanzapine) 5mg b.d.

and

Zoloft (sertraline)100mg b.d., and feel better than I have in years. The only side effects I have experienced are dry mouth and (slight) sexual dysfunction. I was previously on Risperdal (risperidone) which caused an extremely unpleasant case of tardive dyskinesia & extrapyramidal disorders. I simply cannot recommend these medications (Risperdal & Zoloft) too highly. And thanks to the Australian Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme, they only cost me $2.80 per prescription as a pensioner (it would be $15.60 as a general patient. Tim Dicinoski.

Response:

Author: admin on
Category: Zoloft Sertraline
Tags: Zoloft Sertraline

Prescription Medication Knowledge Base » Zoloft Xanax » What is the most effective treatment for BiPolar Depression?

What is the most effective treatment for BiPolar Depression?

Question:

Lamictal

Response:

Worn_Out, you seem to be feeling a little better, are you? hopefully

Response:

I am doing better. My wife says I am talking more & I have started kidding with my 24 year old daughter, again. I think the tofranil is helping & I am on my third week on testosterone injections. I have decided that bi-polar disorder is forever. I woke up this morning in very bad shape, but have gotten over it. Somehow we must all manage to survive because the bad times come and go and if things are bad now, they WILL get better. Thanks Worn_Out, you seem to be feeling a little better, are you? hopefully

Before you buy.

Response:

What % of manic depressives commit suicide?

I have heard that one in five commit suicide, but I wouldn’t swear by it. I hope you find a treatment that works for you. The future brings us the hope of new drugs and new treatments. Web Page at: www.robertpo.com For email replies remove the ****

Response:

What % of manic depressives commit suicide? I have heard that one in five commit suicide, but I wouldn’t swear by it. I hope you find a treatment that works for you. The future brings us the hope of new drugs and new treatments. Web Page at: www.robertpo.com For email replies remove the ****

I’ve seen studies that showed that 1 in 5 bipolars who refused treatment committed suicide. But…these were bipolars sick enough that they had been hospitalized, that’s where they were found for the study. Also, it stands to reason that those who refuse treatment are sicker with more personality problems than average. Also, these were people who were hospitalized in public hospitals, which again indicates that they were sicker…someone in a private hospital probably has been able to work until recently, and hasn’t alienated or shoved away family and friends yet. Still, taking your meds and working with your doctor is the best way to keep from getting worse…and worse can be very, very bad.

Response:

Paxil worked for me. Not to high though-Reached an even – level of comfort. It sounds like you have to find a MD (preferably, a psychopharmacologist) who knows how to mix different combinations of drugs. Don’t lose hope, though. If you do you start asking questions about suicide, and you might have to live it all again in the next life. At this point, paying for drugs is a bigger problem for the long haul than taking them. Any advice? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – After 13 years with BiPolar Disorder I have yet to find effective treatment for its depression. What is the most effective treatment for BiPolar Depression? What % of manic depressives commit suicide? Before you buy.

Response:

At this point, paying for drugs is a bigger problem for the long haul than taking them. Any advice?

I have been started on Tofranil/Imipramine and my pharmacy dispensed it in its generic form. Instead of paying a copay of $7.00 for the name brand I pay $2.00 for the generic. The book, "The Essential Guide to Psychiatric Drugs", shows that the name brand would be $.62/pill and the generic would be $.05/pill (the book was published in 1990). If this is still true, a great deal can be saved by buying generic, if possible. The book, "The Essential Guide to Psychiatric Drugs", by Jack M. Gorman, MD. is the best help in this area that I have found. If you can find a recent edition, I highly reccomend it. Good luck! Before you buy.

Response:

Drop trou Nihil You know you get a spanking for saying bad stuff like that. Bend over, ten whacks with the leather strap. 1 *[SMACK]* ( oouch) 2 *[WACK]* (stop) 3 *[CRACK]* ( I take it back, please stop) Let those warm yer buns a while, I’ll fix you a few fresh ones in a bit. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – x-no-archive: yes After 13 years with BiPolar Disorder I have yet to find effective treatment for its depression. What is the most effective treatment for BiPolar Depression? Personally, I think that Doctor Kevorkian, whom I consider to be a Saint, has the best treatment.

Response:

Everyone is different. Tell me what you’ve tried, kay? Also, let me know what your additional symptoms are, etc. Have you had partial relief with certain drugs? There may be treatments that are better for BPI and treatments that are better for BPII. A lot of people take different drug cocktails, as I’m sure you know. A friend of mine is on lithium AND neurontin, among other things. I’ve been on lots of diff. stuff simultaneously: buspar, trazodone, klonopin, prozac, lithium, depakote, and neurontin are the bulk of the things I’ve been on. Are you taking an antidepressant and a mood stabilizer? -bpkittycat – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – After 13 years with BiPolar Disorder I have yet to find effective treatment for its depression. What is the most effective treatment for BiPolar Depression? What % of manic depressives commit suicide? Before you buy.

Response:

I am now on Tofranil and Lithobid. I have had about 35 ECT treatments (unilateral and bilateral). I have been on: Xanax Elavil Dexedrine Anafranil Welbutrin Buspar Tegretol Librium Valium Effexor Prozac Tofranil Librium Eskalith Ritalin Nardil Serzone Pamelor Parnate Paxil Prozac Risperdal Zoloft Xanax Thyroid Hormone Testosterone I appreciate your interest. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Everyone is different. Tell me what you’ve tried, kay? Also, let me know what your additional symptoms are, etc. Have you had partial relief with certain drugs? There may be treatments that are better for BPI and treatments that are better for BPII. A lot of people take different drug cocktails, as I’m sure you know. A friend of mine is on lithium AND neurontin, among other things. I’ve been on lots of diff. stuff simultaneously: buspar, trazodone, klonopin, prozac, lithium, depakote, and neurontin are the bulk of the things I’ve been on. Are you taking an antidepressant and a mood stabilizer? -bpkittycat

Before you buy.

Response:

Worn Out- I can see why you are frustrated I’ve forgotten what Tofranil is for. Antipsychotic? Antidepressant? MAOI or Tricyclic? What symptoms do you have the most trouble with? I seem to be depressed a lot, and have had depression for most of my life, and "only" a few major manic episodes. I suffer from migraines as well, and hope that the neurontin that I’ve just started will help in preventing the attacks (mania and migraine). I am wondering what you have tried and what you know about diet and how it affects mood. I would suggest, if you are not already doing so, to severely cut down on all carbohydrates, have lots of protein, and consume 3T of flax seed oil every day. Always use olive oil when you can, too (like in salad dressings, for dipping bread in, etc.). These new drugs for seizures are supposed to work for many treatment-resistant patients. check out the Neurontin facts posted earlier today if you haven’t already. Good luck, and I hope you get some good advice and new ideas from others… -bpkittycat – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am now on Tofranil and Lithobid. I have had about 35 ECT treatments (unilateral and bilateral). I have been on: Xanax Elavil Dexedrine Anafranil Welbutrin Buspar Tegretol Librium Valium Effexor Prozac Tofranil Librium Eskalith Ritalin Nardil Serzone Pamelor Parnate Paxil Prozac Risperdal Zoloft Xanax Thyroid Hormone Testosterone I appreciate your interest. Everyone is different. Tell me what you’ve tried, kay? Also, let me know what your additional symptoms are, etc. Have you had partial relief with certain drugs? There may be treatments that are better for BPI and treatments that are better for BPII. A lot of people take different drug cocktails, as I’m sure you know. A friend of mine is on lithium AND neurontin, among other things. I’ve been on lots of diff. stuff simultaneously: buspar, trazodone, klonopin, prozac, lithium, depakote, and neurontin are the bulk of the things I’ve been on. Are you taking an antidepressant and a mood stabilizer? -bpkittycat Before you buy.

Response:

After 13 years with BiPolar Disorder I have yet to find effective treatment for its depression. What is the most effective treatment for BiPolar Depression? What % of manic depressives commit suicide? Before you buy.

Response:

re: question #1: that’s the question, all right re: question #2: between 15 & 20% (some confusion, apparently, about whether this means *all* people with bipolar or just the untreated ones). What about the undiagnosed ones, then? I interpolate all this to indicate that the figure refers to all bipolars. — Deep – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – After 13 years with BiPolar Disorder I have yet to find effective treatment for its depression. What is the most effective treatment for BiPolar Depression? What % of manic depressives commit suicide? Before you buy.

Response:

: After 13 years with BiPolar Disorder I have yet to find effective : treatment for its depression. : : What is the most effective treatment for BiPolar Depression? There is no most effective treatment, it varies with the circumstances and individual. Passage of time usually brings with it some relief of symptoms. : : What % of manic depressives commit suicide? It is higher for untreated sufferers……15-20% if I recall correctly. nm : : : Before you buy. :

Response:

Author: admin on
Category: Zoloft Xanax
Tags: Zoloft Xanax

Prescription Medication Knowledge Base » Zoloft Side Effects » Prozac?

Prozac?

Question:

Hi Bonnie, Good to see you posting again! Zoloft and Prozac have virtually the same profile, as far as side effects, effectiveness, the whole nine yards. But since they are different drugs, it is entirely possible that Prozac will work better than Zoloft for you. 60-80mgs of Prozac will be roughly equivalent to your dose of Zoloft. Actually, 80mgs of Prozac is pretty high. Newer drugs like Celexa have not been shown to be any more or less effective than older ADs like Prozac. The selling point of Celexa is that it is a more selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor than the older ADs, so each should cause less of the wonderful AD side effects. It is a good drug, and I take it, but it is only a marginal improvement over the others, not a quantum leap. Clinical trials on Celexa show absolutely no benefit to taking more than 40mgs a day. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi All: I know that it’s been awhile since I’ve posted, hope nobody forgot me. My p/doc switched a/d. I was taking Zoloft, 200mgs a day. and now she has me on Prozac. Does anyone have any input on this? I have been on a real bad rollercoaster ride and I damn near fell out of the car! I have had the nastiest mood swing lately. Man! Hope to hear that everyone is doing well, and I’ll try not to stay away so long. Thanks everyone. Bonnie~aka~bonster~aka~bon in IRC

Response:

hi Bonnie, I was taking Zoloft 150, didn’t work for me and got switched to prozac about 1 month ago, I feel better than I ever have before, hope it works for you to…mary

Response:

I have been on 60 mgs of prozac for nearly six months now. Prozac by itself made me very manic. Mixed with Klonopin and Neurontin my feet are on the floor and the rollercoaster has screeched to a grinding halt. I really like prozac. The first few weeks I had nasty side effects… but they did subside. I am very used to it now and I find it is an effective AD. I have been on a real bad rollercoaster ride and I damn near fell out of the car! I have had the nastiest mood swing lately. Man! Hope to hear that everyone is doing well, and I’ll try not to stay away so long. Thanks everyone.

Welcome back Bonnie and lots of luck. Julez — It’s spring fever–you don’t know quite what it is you want, but it just fairly makes your heart ache, you want it so. – - Mark Twain [Samuel Langhornne Clemens] (1835-1910)

Response:

Have been on prozac and depakote for a year (almost) and the swings have slowed to toleration. Prozac alone made me manic as all get out (Bulletproof was my term for it). You might try a stabilizer with prozac, if your pdoc allows. That’s what worked for me. Dio – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi All: I know that it’s been awhile since I’ve posted, hope nobody forgot me. My p/doc switched a/d. I was taking Zoloft, 200mgs a day. and now she has me on Prozac. Does anyone have any input on this? I have been on 60 mgs of prozac for nearly six months now. Prozac by itself made me very manic. Mixed with Klonopin and Neurontin my feet are on the floor and the rollercoaster has screeched to a grinding halt. I really like prozac. The first few weeks I had nasty side effects… but they did subside. I am very used to it now and I find it is an effective AD. I have been on a real bad rollercoaster ride and I damn near fell out of the car! I have had the nastiest mood swing lately. Man! Hope to hear that everyone is doing well, and I’ll try not to stay away so long. Thanks everyone. Welcome back Bonnie and lots of luck. Julez — It’s spring fever–you don’t know quite what it is you want, but it just fairly makes your heart ache, you want it so. – - Mark Twain [Samuel Langhornne Clemens] (1835-1910)

Response:

hi Bonnie, I was taking Zoloft 150, didn’t work for me and got switched to prozac about 1 month ago, I feel better than I ever have before, hope it works for you to…mary

Thanks Mary: me too!

Response:

Hi Dio:

Yes, in fact, I do take a mood stabilizer, she has me on Lithobid. Hopefully this stuff will work. If not, back to the drawing board again. Stuff happens! Thanks, Bonnie

Response:

Hey Bon Bon! Wondering why you Pdoc switched you from Zoloft? Side-effects or not working? Prozac is a "first level" anti-depressant. The stuff they give to "normal" people. I took it for years before I was properly diagnoised. For me, it was like giving 200mg of Motrin for pain relief to a person with a gun shot wound. Not too effective. How much are you taking? I think I remember reading that 80mg is pretty much the top dose for Prozac, but don’t quote me. Did you ask him about Celexa? It is a newer SSRI anti-depressant that was approved last summer (but used in Sweden for years). My Pdoc explained that Celexa is "more specific" than the old SSRIs (sorry I can’t explain, ‘cuz I don’t understand all the receptors and such). Ki – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Bonnie,I remember you posting and have missed them.Welcome back.I don.t post much.I have taken prozac for four years and helps obsessions greatly but I still need wellbutrin and zyprexa to keep stable.Hope you feel better.Hang in there. Carolyn Thanks Carolyn: I have been so out of whack lately, I was wondering how good Prozac is. Anyway, take care and don’t be a stranger, and I’ll try not to either. lol

Response:

Hi All: I know that it’s been awhile since I’ve posted, hope nobody forgot me. My p/doc switched a/d. I was taking Zoloft, 200mgs a day. and now she has me on Prozac. Does anyone have any input on this? I have been on a real bad rollercoaster ride and I damn near fell out of the car! I have had the nastiest mood swing lately. Man! Hope to hear that everyone is doing well, and I’ll try not to stay away so long. Thanks everyone. Bonnie~aka~bonster~aka~bon in IRC

Response:

Hi Bonnie,I remember you posting and have missed them.Welcome back.I don.t post much.I have taken prozac for four years and helps obsessions greatly but I still need wellbutrin and zyprexa to keep stable.Hope you feel better.Hang in there. Carolyn

Response:

Thanks Carolyn: I have been so out of whack lately, I was wondering how good Prozac is. Anyway, take care and don’t be a stranger, and I’ll try not to either. lol

Response:

Dear Bonnie, It is so good to hear from you. We missed you. And no you weren’t forgotten! I did take Prozac and a host of other ADs, Unfortunately they either triggered a mania or else did nothing at all. So now we have forgone all ADs and are attempting combination terapy (Neuontin and Topomax) for better control of my cycling. I take Zyprexa when I am dydsphoric and it has been effective. Please keep on posting~ Yours, Lynda Reach beyond your grasp!

Response:

Is anyone able tell me how the Depakote/Prozac combo work in a M/D patient with an anger disorder? I hae heard good things, but still wary…..Thank you for your help.

Response:

Is anyone able tell me how the Depakote/Prozac combo work in a M/D patient with an anger disorder? I hae heard good things, but still wary…..Thank you for your help.

There’s no easy answer here. We are all Guinea pigs and each has her or his own body chemistry with which to deal. Therapy on top of meds could help with the rage. Good luck. dp

Response:

Hi and Welcome to ASDM, Thanks for posting here. Is anyone able tell me how the Depakote/Prozac combo work in a M/D patient with an anger disorder? I hae heard good things, but still wary…..Thank you for your help.

I took that med combo for awhile although I did not have specific anger issues at the time. For me, the Prozac induced dysphoria and the Depakote did not prevent my cycling. I hope some can share their experiences with this combo and anger. Peace, — Lynda

Response:

Prozac has worked on me when everything else failed. The only side effect I’ve had is weight gain (a small price to pay for sanity). But it is an individual thing. Like lithium. It works for some, but it almost killed me. Good day, Richard

Response:

Hiya … I was interested to see your reference re: weight gain on Prozac … I experienced the same thing however my pdoc insists it’s not the Prozac causing weight gain because it is supposedly a ’stimulant’ … we’ve been having this argument for months now … so I was interested to hear someone else with the same side effect … seems we are in the minority … but the Prozac does/did work for me and the weight gain seems under control now that I also take Neurontin …

Response:

Author: admin on
Category: Zoloft Side Effects
Tags: Zoloft Side Effects

Prescription Medication Knowledge Base » Discontinue Use Of Zoloft In Lewy Body Caus » Scott Weiser Related Discussions

Scott Weiser Related Discussions

Question:

ENOUGH WITH THE DAMN ACCESS DEBATE THREADS! Living in the UK, I frequently unsubscribe from rec.boats.paddle because there’s too much which isn’t relevant to the UK paddler. When I resubscribe (as I did last month), I’m always delighted when I find that Scott Weiser is still winding up paddlers, especially in the US. Best wishes

What a compliment. Many thanks…. Regards, Scott Weiser ****** "I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend upon my friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" ****** http://www.dimensional.com/~weiser/ Copyright 1998 by Scott Weiser Under the UCC, by the act of transmitting any commercial e-mail advertisment to this address, you are expressly contracting with me in my professional capacity for a consultation on the ad’s effectiveness and you expressly agree to pay to me the sum of $250.00 for each such consultation within 10 days of my report to the original sending address. You further expressly agree that all actions for recovery of fees owed shall be subject solely to the laws of the State of Colorado, which shall have sole jurisdiction.

Response:

ENOUGH WITH THE DAMN ACCESS DEBATE THREADS!

Living in the UK, I frequently unsubscribe from rec.boats.paddle because there’s too much which isn’t relevant to the UK paddler. When I resubscribe (as I did last month), I’m always delighted when I find that Scott Weiser is still winding up paddlers, especially in the US. Best wishes Keith — |/| |_ |_) |_) / / canoeing instead of climbing when I | | |__ | | / __/ realised I could swim but not fly!"

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It’s all well and good to say that you, one individual boater, does no identifiable harm, but this ignores the impacts of scale, and when a hundred, or a thousand, or ten thousand boaters use the area, the cumulative impacts become significant. Just look at the Grand Canyon. yes – and that’s why most public lands that incur use impacts are placed in management plans. These plans seek to find the right balance – though I’ll admit it can be arbitrary – especially when it comes to mulltiple-use determinations. It’s a delicate balance of the two, but remember that preserving to pass stewardship on does *not* necessarily mean passing it to the public who want to use the land for recreation. indeed. the ‘public’ is the government. All land public or private is regulation by Federal, State, and local laws that prevent land-owners from using their land when the impacts of such use affect the public. If you don’t believe this.. try something like a 1000 head feed-lot on your property… or placer mining… or eve condos… none of these will you do without a ‘permit’ and the government decides on behalf of the public if your proposal is ‘in the public interest’. Some folks of late consider these ‘takings’ but underlying ‘public interest’ concept is intact.

This is true, and I’ve never denied the validity of properly constructed land-use law, but *restricting* a property owner’s use to protect the health, welfare and safety of the public is substantially different from *appropriating* his property for the use of the public. But this is true ONLY IF the 100 cattle *do* damage the riverbank. Such impacts are not really comparative in nature. Negative impacts cause by paddlers are not "better", or "less negative" impacts simply because they are caused by a paddler instead of a cow, they stand on their own, and when those impacts are unnecessary to begin with, they are that much more improper. hmmm.. they *are* comparative in terms of impacts… whether it is recreation, farming, mining.. all of these distill down to impacts that can be quantified in terms of water quality, habitat destruction, etc.

Yes, but an unnecessary impact is an unnecessary impact, no matter how small it may be. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Cattle may cause negative impacts, which can be mitigated by proper management practices, but cattle are *necessary* impacts in most cases, because they are what pay the taxes and create the profits that are used to continue to preserve the area. It’s all well and good to say "cattle-free in 2003" or whatever (though this mostly applies to federal lands) but the bills have to get paid somehow. I suppose when paddlers fork over the thousands of dollars a year to pay the taxes and maintain the property, then I’ll consider allowing them to trespass. Until then, their impacts, however slight, are *not necessary* to the preservation of the resource, and therefore they are justifiably banned. "can be mitigated by proper management practices" leaves it up to the landowner whoever that happens to be at a given time. this does not work when money is involved. Many landowners justify the destruction of the land they own for ‘economic benefits’. You are not unilaterally entitled to un-regulated economic activity just because you own the land. Your activity has to be compatible with the ‘public interest’ as there is hardly anything (economic) you can do on your property that won’t ultimately affect the public. There are thousands and thousands of local, state, federal laws that restrict you every which way from Sunday. You may consider recreation not necessary – the public may think otherwise – the same goes for what you think is ‘necessary’. If you public disagrees with you then you may be restricted.

Absolutely correct, but the fact that the government may regulate my activities in the public interest has no nexus to my ability to regulate YOUR activities on my land. As we have seen, even the government recognizes the impacts of recreationalists on public waters and has chosen to regulate them as well. I’m not sure what your point is. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’am also amused by the ’scaring the wildlife’ argument – somewhat because there may be a ‘hint’ of truth for some species but how many species in the last few decades have been not only ’scared’ but just plain wiped-out because the habitat they lived on was used by the landowner for ‘other purposes’? Again, you are comparing apples and oranges. The fact that species and habitat may have been impacted by landowners is a broad generalization and an irrelevant comparison. In my case this is not the case, as is true in many other places, and you cannot claim that your impacts are legitimate merely because other impacts occur. Your impacts stand alone, on their own merits, and you are not excused by the bad behavior of others. Using your logic, you should be able to toss beer cans on the bank, leave rubbish around and cut down trees for firewood just because somebody else does so somewhere else. That’s fallacious logic at best. I follow the consistency argument and agree but behavior is governed by law whether it occurs on private or public property – though different laws may apply depending on the behavior – for instance some usually can be arrested for ’speeding on your property’ because the law does not apply to private property.

I don’t understand. You seem to be contradicting yourself. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If the ’scaring the wildlife’ arugment were true then most of the official ‘wild & scenic’ rivers in this nation – which are heavily travelled by recreation paddlers – would be completely devoid of wildlife. The reverse is true – once the land is dedicated by recreational use ONLY – the wildlife return and thrive.. and with the exception of certain ’shy’ species become confortable with humans – especially if they are not shooting them. It’s not the presence of the human itself that disturbs most animals – it is WHAT the human is doing and animals *know* that there is risk is hanging around. This is simply not true. No one said that the riparian zone would become ‘devoid’ of life, and while wildlife may become habituated to some degree, the stresses of human intrusion *remain* to negatively affect populations and vigor. And that wildlife you may see, which may be habituated, ignores those "shy" species, which are in the majority, which may indeed leave the area altogether, or may simply begin a gradual decline. Our federal lands are managed for *multiple* use with the recognition that humans *will* have impacts, and those impacts are balanced against the benefits which accrue to the public. Factually, from a political point of view, it would be highly desireable to simply forbid human access to *most* wilderness areas in order to preserve the habitat, but it’s politically impossible to do so, so we instead try to mitigate the impacts we do have. That’s why permit systems are cropping up on more and more rivers. The impacts of scale have become clear and limitations are required to preserve the resource. Indeed – with respect to ‘wilderness designation’, it’s not the paddlers or recreation folks or environmentalists that are fighting it.. it’s the folks that want to build roads and use motors. Impacts from recreation are easily mitigated.. you employ a permit system and if an area has eagle nests.. then you close it off entirely. The right fringe/landowner rights movement is trying to strike down all of these laws.. they want it all wide open … so that power boats, ski doos, etc can you AND the impacts ARE comparative. 100 canoes CAN and ARE compared to 100 ski-doos. One single four-wheel drive can severly damage a trail… and it has become recognized that hikers can do but it’ll take a 1000 of them… so you permit the use.. no 4-wheel and only 10 hikers per day.. etc etc

True, but largely irrelevant. You do prove my point however that mitigating and preventing impacts is a legitimate method of preserving the resource. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The ‘difficulty’ is that if Colorado actually did what you suggest – that there would be a firestorm and the arugment would be over with very quickly. You would lose big time. Very significant tourism and the public’s perception of being ‘welcome’ are involved. No sane public official would even consider it.. that’ why they’re content to let it be the way it is. Public officials don’t make the decisions, wrong… if the public doesn’t like the court decision they’ll change the law. The ‘law’ is determined by the legislature which consists of publically-elected officials. the Courts do. No amount of feverish desire in pursuit of the almighty dollar can prevent me, or someone else from filing a suit in court claiming an improper taking of private property for public use without just compensation. That’s the purpose of the Constitution, to prevent the tyranny of the majority and the infringements of the rights of the individual by the public. yep…but even the constition can be ammended if the people want it.

True, and when you succeed in repealing the Fifth Amendment, get back to me. While you are technically correct, you must recognize that private property ownership and the prohibitions against the government exproprating property without compensation are one of the core beliefs of our nation, and it’s simply not credible that the vast majority of the public, *who are property owners*, will tear up the Constitution simply to suit a *small number* of boating recreationists who aren’t satisfied with the public … read more »

Response:

It’s all well and good to say that you, one individual boater, does no identifiable harm, but this ignores the impacts of scale, and when a hundred, or a thousand, or ten thousand boaters use the area, the cumulative impacts become significant. Just look at the Grand Canyon.

yes – and that’s why most public lands that incur use impacts are placed in management plans. These plans seek to find the right balance – though I’ll admit it can be arbitrary – especially when it comes to mulltiple-use determinations. It’s a delicate balance of the two, but remember that preserving to pass stewardship on does *not* necessarily mean passing it to the public who want to use the land for recreation.

indeed. the ‘public’ is the government. All land public or private is regulation by Federal, State, and local laws that prevent land-owners from using their land when the impacts of such use affect the public. If you don’t believe this.. try something like a 1000 head feed-lot on your property… or placer mining… or eve condos… none of these will you do without a ‘permit’ and the government decides on behalf of the public if your proposal is ‘in the public interest’. Some folks of late consider these ‘takings’ but underlying ‘public interest’ concept is intact. But this is true ONLY IF the 100 cattle *do* damage the riverbank. Such impacts are not really comparative in nature. Negative impacts cause by paddlers are not "better", or "less negative" impacts simply because they are caused by a paddler instead of a cow, they stand on their own, and when those impacts are unnecessary to begin with, they are that much more improper.

hmmm.. they *are* comparative in terms of impacts… whether it is recreation, farming, mining.. all of these distill down to impacts that can be quantified in terms of water quality, habitat destruction, etc. Cattle may cause negative impacts, which can be mitigated by proper management practices, but cattle are *necessary* impacts in most cases, because they are what pay the taxes and create the profits that are used to continue to preserve the area. It’s all well and good to say "cattle-free in 2003" or whatever (though this mostly applies to federal lands) but the bills have to get paid somehow. I suppose when paddlers fork over the thousands of dollars a year to pay the taxes and maintain the property, then I’ll consider allowing them to trespass. Until then, their impacts, however slight, are *not necessary* to the preservation of the resource, and therefore they are justifiably banned.

"can be mitigated by proper management practices" leaves it up to the landowner whoever that happens to be at a given time. this does not work when money is involved. Many landowners justify the destruction of the land they own for ‘economic benefits’. You are not unilaterally entitled to un-regulated economic activity just because you own the land. Your activity has to be compatible with the ‘public interest’ as there is hardly anything (economic) you can do on your property that won’t ultimately affect the public. There are thousands and thousands of local, state, federal laws that restrict you every which way from Sunday. You may consider recreation not necessary – the public may think otherwise – the same goes for what you think is ‘necessary’. If you public disagrees with you then you may be restricted. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’am also amused by the ’scaring the wildlife’ argument – somewhat because there may be a ‘hint’ of truth for some species but how many species in the last few decades have been not only ’scared’ but just plain wiped-out because the habitat they lived on was used by the landowner for ‘other purposes’? Again, you are comparing apples and oranges. The fact that species and habitat may have been impacted by landowners is a broad generalization and an irrelevant comparison. In my case this is not the case, as is true in many other places, and you cannot claim that your impacts are legitimate merely because other impacts occur. Your impacts stand alone, on their own merits, and you are not excused by the bad behavior of others. Using your logic, you should be able to toss beer cans on the bank, leave rubbish around and cut down trees for firewood just because somebody else does so somewhere else. That’s fallacious logic at best.

I follow the consistency argument and agree but behavior is governed by law whether it occurs on private or public property – though different laws may apply depending on the behavior – for instance some usually can be arrested for ’speeding on your property’ because the law does not apply to private property. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If the ’scaring the wildlife’ arugment were true then most of the official ‘wild & scenic’ rivers in this nation – which are heavily travelled by recreation paddlers – would be completely devoid of wildlife. The reverse is true – once the land is dedicated by recreational use ONLY – the wildlife return and thrive.. and with the exception of certain ’shy’ species become confortable with humans – especially if they are not shooting them. It’s not the presence of the human itself that disturbs most animals – it is WHAT the human is doing and animals *know* that there is risk is hanging around. This is simply not true. No one said that the riparian zone would become ‘devoid’ of life, and while wildlife may become habituated to some degree, the stresses of human intrusion *remain* to negatively affect populations and vigor. And that wildlife you may see, which may be habituated, ignores those "shy" species, which are in the majority, which may indeed leave the area altogether, or may simply begin a gradual decline. Our federal lands are managed for *multiple* use with the recognition that humans *will* have impacts, and those impacts are balanced against the benefits which accrue to the public. Factually, from a political point of view, it would be highly desireable to simply forbid human access to *most* wilderness areas in order to preserve the habitat, but it’s politically impossible to do so, so we instead try to mitigate the impacts we do have. That’s why permit systems are cropping up on more and more rivers. The impacts of scale have become clear and limitations are required to preserve the resource.

Indeed – with respect to ‘wilderness designation’, it’s not the paddlers or recreation folks or environmentalists that are fighting it.. it’s the folks that want to build roads and use motors. Impacts from recreation are easily mitigated.. you employ a permit system and if an area has eagle nests.. then you close it off entirely. The right fringe/landowner rights movement is trying to strike down all of these laws.. they want it all wide open … so that power boats, ski doos, etc can you AND the impacts ARE comparative. 100 canoes CAN and ARE compared to 100 ski-doos. One single four-wheel drive can severly damage a trail… and it has become recognized that hikers can do but it’ll take a 1000 of them… so you permit the use.. no 4-wheel and only 10 hikers per day.. etc etc The ‘difficulty’ is that if Colorado actually did what you suggest – that there would be a firestorm and the arugment would be over with very quickly. You would lose big time. Very significant tourism and the public’s perception of being ‘welcome’ are involved. No sane public official would even consider it.. that’ why they’re content to let it be the way it is. Public officials don’t make the decisions,

wrong… if the public doesn’t like the court decision they’ll change the law. The ‘law’ is determined by the legislature which consists of publically-elected officials. the Courts do. No amount of feverish desire in pursuit of the almighty dollar can prevent me, or someone else from filing a suit in court claiming an improper taking of private property for public use without just compensation. That’s the purpose of the Constitution, to prevent the tyranny of the majority and the infringements of the rights of the individual by the public.

yep…but even the constition can be ammended if the people want it. If I were to do as I suggest, *something* would happen, either the trespassers would be arrested, or *I* would be arrested for "illegally" preventing them from trespassing, or they would file a suit, or I would. And as soon as the matter comes to court, the LAW rules, and I am quite confident in the strength of my legal case.

Like I said… if the law in Colorado was rigidly enforced along the lines that you suggest… and paddlers were kicked off of the major streams.. you could expect the law to change – regardless of how the courts feel. When you have a law like they have in Colorado and it’s not enforced.. there is a message in it. Federal Laws can force changes in Colorado law also – and do all the time. In the end… in a democracy… "rights" are decided by the people. You have no "right" to economic activity or even landowner rights if the public that votes disagrees with you. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Regards, Scott Weiser ****** "I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend upon my friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" ****** http://www.dimensional.com/~weiser/ Copyright 1998 by Scott Weiser Under the UCC, by the act of transmitting any commercial e-mail advertisment to this address, you are expressly contracting with me in my professional capacity for a consultation on the ad’s effectiveness and you expressly agree to pay to me the sum of $250.00 for each such consultation within 10 days of my report to the original sending address. You further expressly agree that all actions for recovery of fees owed shall be subject solely to the laws of the State of Colorado, which shall have sole

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Correct, and the point is that *somebody* just might own such places, and you could lose the access in a heartbeat due to the malefactions of one or two individual paddlers. yep – actually this is more common that most folks either know or will admit. In Virginia – The Cowpasture River ( not great whitewater but a really beautify mountain river) is essentially off-limits. Others include Back Creek and the Jackson. Had a little old lady point a long-barreled 45 at our group on the Bullpasture. She wanted us off of "her damned land" NOW! People have been arrested in the past and many others are "warned" by local landowners before they even put in. Interestingly, we *used* to be able to get permission from the landowner group for a number of years and then suddenly we were refused. Not because we had done anything wrong – we ALWAYS sought permission and ALWAYS were polite – but because 1 landowner out of dozens didn’t want ANYBODY and didn’t care whether they were polite or respectful or anything else. End of story. All of years of carefully trying to not step on anyones toes went for naught. Um….I think this qualifies as a "broad generalization" of the type which Richard was objecting to when applied to paddlers, so I guess I have to object to it when applied to "landowners". After all, my purpose is not to develop or destroy the resource, it’s to protect it from the damage caused by public use. yep, i erred in the generalization. there is a link however. I don’t buy your ‘protection’ argument. I’ve paddled hundreds of rivers in 30 years of boating and damage, if any, is miniscule compared to cattle, 4 wheelers, local trash dumps, roadside dumps, fishermen – believe it of not!, logging, farming, and industry.

This may be true elsewhere, but the fact that others may cause more damage does not reduce the impacts which boaters cause, and since whatever those impacts are are unnecessary, it’s perfectly proper to prevent them. Actually, of late, many rivers have been saved from damage by pointing out that they are used significantly for recreation. also interesting is that once a River becomes officially protected and becomes a destination for paddlers – the localities reap economic benefit AND the river then becomes essentially off-limits to single-minded proposals that *would* damage it.

If economic benefits were the only criteria perhaps this would be valid. You do make a valid point that public awareness of the particular value of a particular river can be helpful in protecting the resource, but far too often the negative impacts of public access do more harm than good. It’s all well and good to say that you, one individual boater, does no identifiable harm, but this ignores the impacts of scale, and when a hundred, or a thousand, or ten thousand boaters use the area, the cumulative impacts become significant. Just look at the Grand Canyon. It’s a delicate balance of the two, but remember that preserving to pass stewardship on does *not* necessarily mean passing it to the public who want to use the land for recreation. I don’t think it is a ‘delicate balance’ at all. In most cases, it is fairly clear what the landowners intentions are.. you can see it in the way they take care of ( or not ) the land. Recreation does not harm the land on near the same scale as say cattle. A hundred cattle can totally ruin a river bank and turn a clean stream into a mess. A 100 paddlers – even if they all urinated in unison wouldn’t even come close.

But this is true ONLY IF the 100 cattle *do* damage the riverbank. Such impacts are not really comparative in nature. Negative impacts cause by paddlers are not "better", or "less negative" impacts simply because they are caused by a paddler instead of a cow, they stand on their own, and when those impacts are unnecessary to begin with, they are that much more improper. Cattle may cause negative impacts, which can be mitigated by proper management practices, but cattle are *necessary* impacts in most cases, because they are what pay the taxes and create the profits that are used to continue to preserve the area. It’s all well and good to say "cattle-free in 2003" or whatever (though this mostly applies to federal lands) but the bills have to get paid somehow. I suppose when paddlers fork over the thousands of dollars a year to pay the taxes and maintain the property, then I’ll consider allowing them to trespass. Until then, their impacts, however slight, are *not necessary* to the preservation of the resource, and therefore they are justifiably banned. I’am also amused by the ’scaring the wildlife’ argument – somewhat because there may be a ‘hint’ of truth for some species but how many species in the last few decades have been not only ’scared’ but just plain wiped-out because the habitat they lived on was used by the landowner for ‘other purposes’?

Again, you are comparing apples and oranges. The fact that species and habitat may have been impacted by landowners is a broad generalization and an irrelevant comparison. In my case this is not the case, as is true in many other places, and you cannot claim that your impacts are legitimate merely because other impacts occur. Your impacts stand alone, on their own merits, and you are not excused by the bad behavior of others. Using your logic, you should be able to toss beer cans on the bank, leave rubbish around and cut down trees for firewood just because somebody else does so somewhere else. That’s fallacious logic at best. If the ’scaring the wildlife’ arugment were true then most of the official ‘wild & scenic’ rivers in this nation – which are heavily travelled by recreation paddlers – would be completely devoid of wildlife. The reverse is true – once the land is dedicated by recreational use ONLY – the wildlife return and thrive.. and with the exception of certain ’shy’ species become confortable with humans – especially if they are not shooting them. It’s not the presence of the human itself that disturbs most animals – it is WHAT the human is doing and animals *know* that there is risk is hanging around.

This is simply not true. No one said that the riparian zone would become ‘devoid’ of life, and while wildlife may become habituated to some degree, the stresses of human intrusion *remain* to negatively affect populations and vigor. And that wildlife you may see, which may be habituated, ignores those "shy" species, which are in the majority, which may indeed leave the area altogether, or may simply begin a gradual decline. Our federal lands are managed for *multiple* use with the recognition that humans *will* have impacts, and those impacts are balanced against the benefits which accrue to the public. Factually, from a political point of view, it would be highly desireable to simply forbid human access to *most* wilderness areas in order to preserve the habitat, but it’s politically impossible to do so, so we instead try to mitigate the impacts we do have. That’s why permit systems are cropping up on more and more rivers. The impacts of scale have become clear and limitations are required to preserve the resource. Those impacts are just as present on Boulder Creek, though to a lesser degree. The difficulty is that many jurisdictions are relying upon the *** snip legal rambling **** Pity I don’t own such a parcel…..I could bring this thing to a head quite quickly…. The ‘difficulty’ is that if Colorado actually did what you suggest – that there would be a firestorm and the arugment would be over with very quickly. You would lose big time. Very significant tourism and the public’s perception of being ‘welcome’ are involved. No sane public official would even consider it.. that’ why they’re content to let it be the way it is.

Public officials don’t make the decisions, the Courts do. No amount of feverish desire in pursuit of the almighty dollar can prevent me, or someone else from filing a suit in court claiming an improper taking of private property for public use without just compensation. That’s the purpose of the Constitution, to prevent the tyranny of the majority and the infringements of the rights of the individual by the public. If I were to do as I suggest, *something* would happen, either the trespassers would be arrested, or *I* would be arrested for "illegally" preventing them from trespassing, or they would file a suit, or I would. And as soon as the matter comes to court, the LAW rules, and I am quite confident in the strength of my legal case. Regards, Scott Weiser ****** "I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend upon my friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" ****** http://www.dimensional.com/~weiser/ Copyright 1998 by Scott Weiser Under the UCC, by the act of transmitting any commercial e-mail advertisment to this address, you are expressly contracting with me in my professional capacity for a consultation on the ad’s effectiveness and you expressly agree to pay to me the sum of $250.00 for each such consultation within 10 days of my report to the original sending address. You further expressly agree that all actions for recovery of fees owed shall be subject solely to the laws of the State of Colorado, which shall have sole jurisdiction.

Response:

Correct, and the point is that *somebody* just might own such places, and you could lose the access in a heartbeat due to the malefactions of one or two individual paddlers.

yep – actually this is more common that most folks either know or will admit. In Virginia – The Cowpasture River ( not great whitewater but a really beautify mountain river) is essentially off-limits. Others include Back Creek and the Jackson. Had a little old lady point a long-barreled 45 at our group on the Bullpasture. She wanted us off of "her damned land" NOW! People have been arrested in the past and many others are "warned" by local landowners before they even put in. Interestingly, we *used* to be able to get permission from the landowner group for a number of years and then suddenly we were refused. Not because we had done anything wrong – we ALWAYS sought permission and ALWAYS were polite – but because 1 landowner out of dozens didn’t want ANYBODY and didn’t care whether they were polite or respectful or anything else. End of story. All of years of carefully trying to not step on anyones toes went for naught. Um….I think this qualifies as a "broad generalization" of the type which Richard was objecting to when applied to paddlers, so I guess I have to object to it when applied to "landowners". After all, my purpose is not to develop or destroy the resource, it’s to protect it from the damage caused by public use.

yep, i erred in the generalization. there is a link however. I don’t buy your ‘protection’ argument. I’ve paddled hundreds of rivers in 30 years of boating and damage, if any, is miniscule compared to cattle, 4 wheelers, local trash dumps, roadside dumps, fishermen – believe it of not!, logging, farming, and industry. Actually, of late, many rivers have been saved from damage by pointing out that they are used significantly for recreation. also interesting is that once a River becomes officially protected and becomes a destination for paddlers – the localities reap economic benefit AND the river then becomes essentially off-limits to single-minded proposals that *would* damage it. It’s a delicate balance of the two, but remember that preserving to pass stewardship on does *not* necessarily mean passing it to the public who want to use the land for recreation.

I don’t think it is a ‘delicate balance’ at all. In most cases, it is fairly clear what the landowners intentions are.. you can see it in the way they take care of ( or not ) the land. Recreation does not harm the land on near the same scale as say cattle. A hundred cattle can totally ruin a river bank and turn a clean stream into a mess. A 100 paddlers – even if they all urinated in unison wouldn’t even come close. I’am also amused by the ’scaring the wildlife’ argument – somewhat because there may be a ‘hint’ of truth for some species but how many species in the last few decades have been not only ’scared’ but just plain wiped-out because the habitat they lived on was used by the landowner for ‘other purposes’? If the ’scaring the wildlife’ arugment were true then most of the official ‘wild & scenic’ rivers in this nation – which are heavily travelled by recreation paddlers – would be completely devoid of wildlife. The reverse is true – once the land is dedicated by recreational use ONLY – the wildlife return and thrive.. and with the exception of certain ’shy’ species become confortable with humans – especially if they are not shooting them. It’s not the presence of the human itself that disturbs most animals – it is WHAT the human is doing and animals *know* that there is risk is hanging around. The difficulty is that many jurisdictions are relying upon the

*** snip legal rambling **** Pity I don’t own such a parcel…..I could bring this thing to a head quite quickly….

The ‘difficulty’ is that if Colorado actually did what you suggest – that there would be a firestorm and the arugment would be over with very quickly. You would lose big time. Very significant tourism and the public’s perception of being ‘welcome’ are involved. No sane public official would even consider it.. that’ why they’re content to let it be the way it is. Absolutely correct, and only by dialog between landowners and river users can such conflicts be peacefully and properly resolved with benefit to everyone.

I actually agree with the basic premise that no one is guanranteed access to private land because they are engaging in what they perceive as a ‘noble’ activity. Usually, it’s scumballs who cloak themselves with the ‘noble activity’ and then abuse the landowner. We’ve seen it with hunting and to some extent with boating. I’ve always subscribed to the idea that if someone owns the land that *I* need to *ask permission* and if they refuse – they refuse. It is their right. It burns my butt when 99 paddlers are polite and ask permission and then Mr asshole waltz’s in and screws it up for everybody. Folks from the ‘big’ cities are often the worst offenders. For some odd reason, I’ve never been able to understand they think they are ‘entitled’ to treaspass once in the rural landscape. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Regards, Scott Weiser ****** "I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend upon my friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" ****** http://www.dimensional.com/~weiser/ Copyright 1998 by Scott Weiser Under the UCC, by the act of transmitting any commercial e-mail advertisment to this address, you are expressly contracting with me in my professional capacity for a consultation on the ad’s effectiveness and you expressly agree to pay to me the sum of $250.00 for each such consultation within 10 days of my report to the original sending address. You further expressly agree that all actions for recovery of fees owed shall be subject solely to the laws of the State of Colorado, which shall have sole jurisdiction.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am willing to conceed to Scott that there is a valid interest in these dicussions on this newsgroup, but I do wish I could make the "NOT weiser" boolean search request work on my newsreader client. The problem I have with these posts is that Scott seems to be preoccupied with preaching legal findings and citing past relevant rulings to paddlers that are responding back with statements like "If I can paddle it, the river is navigable!" and "Just try to stop me!". Reading these threads is like sitting in a nicely furnished living room watching an acclaimed vet scold his dog by using the following phrase…"Sparky, the reason you should not urinate on the carpet is because the acidic nature of your fluid excrement has an adverse effect on both the optical appearance of this synthetic-based floor covering and also tends to react unpleasantly with the olfactory processes of myself and my house guests. Please, Sparky, give me a reason why I should not confine you to your pre-designated travel container." Whereas, the more intelligent vet, the person that learns through careful observation would say "Bad Dog, go to your box.", realizing that dogs do not make for good argument.

ROTFLMAO. What a hoot….I had not thought to compare kayakers to untrainable dogs. I sort of thought by presenting the evidence in (hopefully) a manner which the average adult could understand, that people would discover the logic involved themselves and make good decisions based upon that knowledge. I’ve had quite a bit of evidence that this is indeed the case. While you may tire of repetition (as I do), there is a constant stream of people who *don’t* understand and might like to who deserve to be informed of the controversy and the facts surrounding it so that they, too, can make informed decisions. My suggestion is that those who know the material and have made the decision, one way or the other, simply skip the threads altogether and allow those who *are* interested debate the matter with me in peace and quiet. Unfortunately, those who have seen the material cannot seem to control themselves and insist on insulting me and interrupting valid and interesting conversations among others. It’s a lot like a high-school student running into a class full of 8th graders and shouting "Hey, teach, shut the **ck up! I’ve heard all this before and you annoy me!" Why can’t those who don’t like the nature of the discussion simply switch off and go for a paddle and leave those who wish to discuss alone? I suspect it’s because such people are violently opposed to my particular argument and see it as dangerous, and decide to do whatever they can to disrupt the flow of information. It’s a lame attempt at censorship, nothing more, and I’ll tell you here and now it won’t work. I guess what I am trying to say here is that the best communicators are the ones that can tailor a response, argumentative or otherwise, to the intended audience. Make your point and make it clear. There is nothing wrong with being a highly intelligent, well versed, individual, but make no mistake…a highly- intelligent, well-versed idiot is still an idiot. Finally, Scott, if you feel the need to reply to this posting, I will assume that you deem me a colleague worth engaging with in meaningful debate. If your words truly express your feelings about me…

I think you have made a trenchant statement of fact, and I appreciate your candor. I hope that my reply is likewise informative. We agree more than we disagree, but I have a policy about "Shut the **ck UP!" threads, which is that I reply to them with whatever degree of politeness is called for until those posting to the thread….shut the **ck up. Then I return to the adult debates about access issues and the law with those who wish to discuss the issue. When nobody cares to discuss it anymore, then the thread dies and I retreat to my place under the bridge for a time, until some event stimulates me to begin again, for a new crop of paddlers who may be in need of enlightenment. (Your Previous Posting) <CLIP If you don’t like the course of the conversation, then toddle off and start one of your own instead of sniping at the adults who are having an interesting discussion. You sound like a three-year-old who’s whining and throwing a temper tantrum because Mommy is ignoring you. <CLIP …then why do you bother post a reply, I personally do not waste my time reasoning with someone that sounded like a spoiled three-year-old.

It’s not for *their* benefit, it’s for the benefit of others, and for my own amusement. If you do repond and I do not, please do not feel bad. Sometimes I go out and paddle instead of talking about it in this newsgroup.

Good plan. BTW- I apologize for the YELLING in my first post, it was uncalled for.

No problem, I’m a very forgiving kind of guy. Regards, Scott Weiser ****** "I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend upon my friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" ****** http://www.dimensional.com/~weiser/ Copyright 1998 by Scott Weiser Under the UCC, by the act of transmitting any commercial e-mail advertisment to this address, you are expressly contracting with me in my professional capacity for a consultation on the ad’s effectiveness and you expressly agree to pay to me the sum of $250.00 for each such consultation within 10 days of my report to the original sending address. You further expressly agree that all actions for recovery of fees owed shall be subject solely to the laws of the State of Colorado, which shall have sole jurisdiction.

Response:

Hey, hey. We should be counting our blessings. Suppose Mr. Weiser owned the put-in to the Ocoee or Chatooga?

Correct, and the point is that *somebody* just might own such places, and you could lose the access in a heartbeat due to the malefactions of one or two individual paddlers. Paddlers need to know about folks like him AND how he thinks. Mr. Weiser is representative of many ‘landowner rights’ advocates some of whom also belong to the ‘Wise Use’ groups. They usually not only want to keep paddlers off the rivers but they want to develop their land in any way they please even if it destroys natural resources.

Um….I think this qualifies as a "broad generalization" of the type which Richard was objecting to when applied to paddlers, so I guess I have to object to it when applied to "landowners". After all, my purpose is not to develop or destroy the resource, it’s to protect it from the damage caused by public use. Some folks think if they own land that it ‘ALL MINE’ and I can do with it what I want while others see themselves as temporary stewards responsible for passing the land on to others to also will practice stewardship.

It’s a delicate balance of the two, but remember that preserving to pass stewardship on does *not* necessarily mean passing it to the public who want to use the land for recreation. It is a significant movement and unless paddlers and others become involved and pay attention – you’ll see more and more rivers placed off-limits. I’m amazed that if Colorado Law is what Mr. Weiser sez it is that ANY rivers out there can be accessed legally. Something doesn’t fit. I wonder how popular rivers fare on the access issue in that state.

The difficulty is that many jurisdictions are relying upon the Attorney General’s opinion of the effects of changing the definition of "premises", including the state Department of Natural Resources, which leads to inconsistent enforcement of the law and a misunderstanding of the law itself. The issue is still unresolved because no case has been brought to overturn the AG’s opinion and confirm the Emmert Court’s decision. I hope it won’t come to that, because such a ruling would *shut down* public recreational use of most of the important recreational waters of the state, including the Number section of the Arkansas, which, while most of it is on BLM or Forest Service land, is criss-crossed by private "inholdings", any one of which could choose at any time to prohibit trespass and thereby destroy the ability to complete the float at all, since there’s no way to egress at the closed properties. This is why I propose a system which allows the state to, in this example, *condemn* a recreational easement if necessary to assure continued access to the entire run. But the essential part is that the state must *pay for* the access. After all, commercial whitewater recreation on the Arkansas is a multi-million dollar industry, which makes that easement quite valuable. I’ve suggested before the possibility that a landowner who owns a strip of land under the river somewhere in the middle of the popular section could simply take photos of every commercial raft which passes by in a season, identify the outfitter, count the number of heads and send them a bill at, say, $5.00 a head for a "trespass fee." I imagine this would get the attention of the recreational community rather quickly. Pity I don’t own such a parcel…..I could bring this thing to a head quite quickly…. The thread has been excellent raising awareness and I’ll bet more than a few now realize how important it is to contribute/join the AWA who works on behalf paddlers on access issues.

Absolutely correct, and only by dialog between landowners and river users can such conflicts be peacefully and properly resolved with benefit to everyone. Regards, Scott Weiser ****** "I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend upon my friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" ****** http://www.dimensional.com/~weiser/ Copyright 1998 by Scott Weiser Under the UCC, by the act of transmitting any commercial e-mail advertisment to this address, you are expressly contracting with me in my professional capacity for a consultation on the ad’s effectiveness and you expressly agree to pay to me the sum of $250.00 for each such consultation within 10 days of my report to the original sending address. You further expressly agree that all actions for recovery of fees owed shall be subject solely to the laws of the State of Colorado, which shall have sole jurisdiction.

Response:

Shut Up, Shut up, Shut Up!!! For the love of God people please stop this nonesense. Like everyone else I give a damn but I’m F%#$ing tired of seeing all these lame Wesier posts. Dear lord have mercy on our souls!! T.J.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey, hey. We should be counting our blessings. Suppose Mr. Weiser owned the put-in to the Ocoee or Chatooga? Paddlers need to know about folks like him AND how he thinks. Mr. Weiser is representative of many ‘landowner rights’ advocates some of whom also belong to the ‘Wise Use’ groups. They usually not only want to keep paddlers off the rivers but they want to develop their land in any way they please even if it destroys natural resources. Some folks think if they own land that it ‘ALL MINE’ and I can do with it what I want while others see themselves as temporary stewards responsible for passing the land on to others to also will practice stewardship. It is a significant movement and unless paddlers and others become involved and pay attention – you’ll see more and more rivers placed off-limits. I’m amazed that if Colorado Law is what Mr. Weiser sez it is that ANY rivers out there can be accessed legally. Something doesn’t fit. I wonder how popular rivers fare on the access issue in that state. The thread has been excellent raising awareness and I’ll bet more than a few now realize how important it is to contribute/join the AWA who works on behalf paddlers on access issues.

I will go against the spirit of my original post and add a few more coals to the fire. Larry, you make a good point here. It is important that people reading this newsgroup realize the opinions of Scott and landowners like him. I do admit that I skimmed over the legal content of your posting pretty lightly, because I myself (speaking only for myself) do not give much consideration to written law while paddling. Not to say that I am a scofflaw, I just rely on simple common sense and judgement when leaving the city for a relaxing paddling trip. In my opinion, many access laws are on the books for liability reasons. There is a certain river here in the Southeast, that is officially banned from access. I have been told by local law enforcement officials that they do not particularly mind paddlers on the river, nor do they bother them if the right attitude is excercised by the group. The law was enacted to protect the state in the event of an unforseen accident. When I paddle, I paddle until told not to. If a local landowner expresses their concern in my paddling, I respect their wishes. If I should get arrested and am legally "in the wrong", I pay my fine and do not visit that particular area again. This approach has not failed me yet. Mutual respect goes quite a long way here in the Southeast. Maybe things are different in Colorado, I really do not know. I am not saying we should feel that we have the right to paddle anywhere. I am simply saying that 9 times out of ten, if you are not making a problem for anyone, people usually do not make problems for you. If Mr. Weiser’s family property on Boulder Creek contains a fence to control livestock, and by Colorado law they have a right to maintain that fence, then I would say paddling that section does impose a problem on someone, so it shold be avoided. It is quite possible that if there was no need for the fence, the Weisers may not care if their property is paddled across, who knows, it does not really matter. If I am paddling down a "legal" creek and a trout fisherman has inadvertantly snagged his line across the river, I wait, or help, or get out and walk around. I do not care who is or is not supposed to be there. (enough rambling, I will try to make my point here.) I am willing to conceed to Scott that there is a valid interest in these dicussions on this newsgroup, but I do wish I could make the "NOT weiser" boolean search request work on my newsreader client. The problem I have with these posts is that Scott seems to be preoccupied with preaching legal findings and citing past relevant rulings to paddlers that are responding back with statements like "If I can paddle it, the river is navigable!" and "Just try to stop me!". Reading these threads is like sitting in a nicely furnished living room watching an acclaimed vet scold his dog by using the following phrase…"Sparky, the reason you should not urinate on the carpet is because the acidic nature of your fluid excrement has an adverse effect on both the optical appearance of this synthetic-based floor covering and also tends to react unpleasantly with the olfactory processes of myself and my house guests. Please, Sparky, give me a reason why I should not confine you to your pre-designated travel container." Whereas, the more intelligent vet, the person that learns through careful observation would say "Bad Dog, go to your box.", realizing that dogs do not make for good argument. I guess what I am trying to say here is that the best communicators are the ones that can tailor a response, argumentative or otherwise, to the intended audience. Make your point and make it clear. There is nothing wrong with being a highly intelligent, well versed, individual, but make no mistake…a highly- intelligent, well-versed idiot is still an idiot. Finally, Scott, if you feel the need to reply to this posting, I will assume that you deem me a colleague worth engaging with in meaningful debate. If your words truly express your feelings about me… (Your Previous Posting) <CLIP If you don’t like the course of the conversation, then toddle off and start one of your own instead of sniping at the adults who are having an interesting discussion. You sound like a three-year-old who’s whining and throwing a temper tantrum because Mommy is ignoring you.

<CLIP …then why do you bother post a reply, I personally do not waste my time reasoning with someone that sounded like a spoiled three-year-old. If you do repond and I do not, please do not feel bad. Sometimes I go out and paddle instead of talking about it in this newsgroup. BTW- I apologize for the YELLING in my first post, it was uncalled for. SYOTR (well maybe 99.9% of you) -Craig

Response:

From, Mick "Better to be paddlin’ hard than hardly paddlin’ "

Response:

I think it’s kind of funny. Near the beginning of the great return of Weiser, everyone was more or less agreeing with him. Now he’s isolated himself against the NG again by posting more to this newsgroup on a few days than I have since I’ve started looking at it.

Of course, the slingers of insults who *start* the threads have *nothing* to do with it…..not… If only the "vocal minority" were able to leave well enough alone, then perhaps these pyrotechnic offshoots wouldn’t happen, but of course, unable to audit their conduct, they just *have* to get a dig in there. Well, poke me and I poke right back. You want it to stop, you stop it. Regards, Scott Weiser ****** "I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend upon my friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" ****** http://www.dimensional.com/~weiser/ Copyright 1998 by Scott Weiser Under the UCC, by the act of transmitting any commercial e-mail advertisment to this address, you are expressly contracting with me in my professional capacity for a consultation on the ad’s effectiveness and you expressly agree to pay to me the sum of $250.00 for each such consultation within 10 days of my report to the original sending address. You further expressly agree that all actions for recovery of fees owed shall be subject solely to the laws of the State of Colorado, which shall have sole jurisdiction.

Response:

Hey, hey. We should be counting our blessings. Suppose Mr. Weiser owned the put-in to the Ocoee or Chatooga? Paddlers need to know about folks like him AND how he thinks. Mr. Weiser is representative of many ‘landowner rights’ advocates some of whom also belong to the ‘Wise Use’ groups. They usually not only want to keep paddlers off the rivers but they want to develop their land in any way they please even if it destroys natural resources. Some folks think if they own land that it ‘ALL MINE’ and I can do with it what I want while others see themselves as temporary stewards responsible for passing the land on to others to also will practice stewardship. It is a significant movement and unless paddlers and others become involved and pay attention – you’ll see more and more rivers placed off-limits. I’m amazed that if Colorado Law is what Mr. Weiser sez it is that ANY rivers out there can be accessed legally. Something doesn’t fit. I wonder how popular rivers fare on the access issue in that state. The thread has been excellent raising awareness and I’ll bet more than a few now realize how important it is to contribute/join the AWA who works on behalf paddlers on access issues.

Response:

I apologize in advance, but there really is no diplomatic way to state this… ENOUGH WITH THE DAMN ACCESS DEBATE THREADS!

Thank you for that trenchant commentary. I am a kayaker. I view and post to this newsgroup in order to keep abreast of new happenings in the sport I love.

And access debates have nothing to do with your sport? Boy, are you deluded. And just what makes you think that anyone else is obliged to give a rodent’s fundamental orifice about why YOU choose to participate here or what YOU like or want? When I see three postings (or threads) involving a river access issue, I think "Good debate, there have been some valid issues presented here". When I see thirty posts, mostly by one individual, I think "These (expletive’in) people have nothing better to do with their time."

Well, I do rather enjoy jousting with the fine folks here…and the Netwits too. It’s my time to waste though, so what’s your beef? Remember, I only post in reply to a query or discussion from someone else who, axiomatically, *is* interested in the subject. Please, If you are absolutely hot-and-bothered to the point that you are treating this news group like your own personal chat-room, I understand…But keep it private, e-mail is really an ideal medium for this type of thing. Don’t clog this otherwise interesting group with twenty different post that are essentially the same in content.

Clog the group? Have you ever heard of a concept called the "delete" key? How about the "down arrow" key? Both of them will allow you to completely bypass any discussion which might cause consternation and confusion in your tiny mind. There’s and even better one….it’s called the "OFF" switch. Use it in good health, but USE it. If the posts are the same in content, it’s because others keep asking the same questions, and as long as they do, I’ll keep responding to them because it’s the polite thing to do. For the record, Yes, I do now know that Scott Weiser(sp?) is very familiar with private domain laws in Colorado and he would prefer that kayakers show a little more respect towards his family’s legal wishes. I also know that there are a lot of disrespectful boaters out there that believe once the water droplet leaves the cloud, it is there God-given right to use it at their convenience. Well folks, these are things I learned in the first few posts. I can see both sides of the argument, but really do not give a flying (expletive)!

And so you would impose your will on everyone else, some of whom might be interested, simply because you don’t have the wit to skip a thread. How very altruistic of you. If you have any other opinions that you think I am interested in past that point, know that I am not. If any of you involved in this thread think of any other gems that need to be discussed pertaining to this topic. Please, WRITE YOUR (EXPLETIVE’IN) CONGRESSMAN OR SHUT THE (EXPLETIVE) UP!

Let me see if I can put this delicately……No. If you don’t like the course of the conversation, then toddle off and start one of your own instead of sniping at the adults who are having an interesting discussion. You sound like a three-year-old who’s whining and throwing a temper tantrum because Mommy is ignoring you. Grow up and act like an adult. Regards, Scott Weiser ****** "I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend upon my friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" ****** http://www.dimensional.com/~weiser/ Copyright 1998 by Scott Weiser Under the UCC, by the act of transmitting any commercial e-mail advertisment to this address, you are expressly contracting with me in my professional capacity for a consultation on the ad’s effectiveness and you expressly agree to pay to me the sum of $250.00 for each such consultation within 10 days of my report to the original sending address. You further expressly agree that all actions for recovery of fees owed shall be subject solely to the laws of the State of Colorado, which shall have sole jurisdiction.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You know, I agree with just about everything Scott said in this post. Nobody forces you to read every article on the newsgroup. Just skip over the threads you don’t like. I know we’ve gone over this subject a zillion times, but apparently we keep getting new people in the group who are not aware of the differences in access laws from place to place. Some of these people want argue with Scott, but it really won’t do them any good–they can’t change the laws of the state of Colorado. They do, however, learn from the exchanges. And for every person who posts in the thread, there are at least ten who are reading it and learning from it. If paddlers improve their behaviour wrt access, then maybe some irate landowners who have the power to block access to put-ins or even to the entire river may decide that paddlers aren’t so bad. If these threads improve our collective behaviour enough that the closure of just one river is avoided, then it will be worthwhile.

Well said. I do take issue with one of Scott’s statements, though. Remember, I only post in reply to a query or discussion from someone else who, axiomatically, *is* interested in the subject. Scott, you were the first poster on this subject. So one out of the dozens of your posts was NOT a repy. (OK, I may be picking at straws there, but read on.) Also, just the other day, you replied to a post that was completely unrelated (i.e. had nothing to do with access), and did so in a manner that seemed (to me) aimed at starting another big thread. Hence, you do not ONLY post to reply to questions about access, although I would agree that the vast majority of your posts are valid replies. If you had said that you "usually" or "generally only reply… then I would have no argument with your statement.

Well, you’ve got me there. I admit to priming the pan from time to time, but you can hardly blame me when the flash occurs. It’s possible for everyone to simply ignore my flashy lures, but it’s also highly unlikely, as I have discovered, and so I take advantage of that phenomenon to stimulate debate, and this has been another interesting and lively debate, and, as you so succintly said, some people learned something new. Whether they like what they learned, or agree with it is unimportant, what’s important is that they have had their horizons expanded, which is *always* a good thing. Regards, Scott Weiser ****** "I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend upon my friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" ****** http://www.dimensional.com/~weiser/ Copyright 1998 by Scott Weiser Under the UCC, by the act of transmitting any commercial e-mail advertisment to this address, you are expressly contracting with me in my professional capacity for a consultation on the ad’s effectiveness and you expressly agree to pay to me the sum of $250.00 for each such consultation within 10 days of my report to the original sending address. You further expressly agree that all actions for recovery of fees owed shall be subject solely to the laws of the State of Colorado, which shall have sole jurisdiction.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I apologize in advance, but there really is no diplomatic way to state this… ENOUGH WITH THE DAMN ACCESS DEBATE THREADS! I am a kayaker. I view and post to this newsgroup in order to keep abreast of new happenings in the sport I love. When I see three postings (or threads) involving a river access issue, I think "Good debate, there have been some valid issues presented here". When I see thirty posts, mostly by one individual, I think "These (expletive’in) people have nothing better to do with their time." Please, If you are absolutely hot-and-bothered to the point that you are treating this news group like your own personal chat-room, I understand…But keep it private, e-mail is really an ideal medium for this type of thing. Don’t clog this otherwise interesting group with twenty different post that are essentially the same in content. For the record, Yes, I do now know that Scott Weiser(sp?) is very familiar with private domain laws in Colorado and he would prefer that kayakers show a little more respect towards his family’s legal wishes. I also know that there are a lot of disrespectful boaters out there that believe once the water droplet leaves the cloud, it is there God-given right to use it at their convenience. Well folks, these are things I learned in the first few posts. I can see both sides of the argument, but really do not give a flying (expletive)! If you have any other opinions that you think I am interested in past that point, know that I am not. If any of you involved in this thread think of any other gems that need to be discussed pertaining to this topic. Please, WRITE YOUR (EXPLETIVE’IN) CONGRESSMAN OR SHUT THE (EXPLETIVE) UP! By the way, if any of you would like to paddle this weekend, let me know Let me out of this concrete jungle, -Craig "no playboat yet" Geist

You better watch out buddy … you started a new possible deadly feud here … you better know that Mr. Weiser is a very fast typist, commands the English language like no other, is an expert of all laws of the king’s land, he is a sharp shooter (he is also a gunsmithlike expert) and a land "king size" owner. You are doomed my friend! Scotty will beam your tired sorry paddling ass up! PS: I really felt sorry for the incident and for the two idiots that went after Mr. Weiser’s mother but this is to much! Fred Fred Mechini Visit my homepage http://pluto.njcc.com/~fmec/Welcome.html A WEB PAGE DEDICATED TO OLYMPIC SPRINT KAYAK

Response:

You know, I agree with just about everything Scott said in this post. Nobody forces you to read every article on the newsgroup. Just skip over the threads you don’t like. I know we’ve gone over this subject a zillion times, but apparently we keep getting new people in the group who are not aware of the differences in access laws from place to place. Some of these people want argue with Scott, but it really won’t do them any good–they can’t change the laws of the state of Colorado. They do, however, learn from the exchanges. And for every person who posts in the thread, there are at least ten who are reading it and learning from it. If paddlers improve their behaviour wrt access, then maybe some irate landowners who have the power to block access to put-ins or even to the entire river may decide that paddlers aren’t so bad. If these threads improve our collective behaviour enough that the closure of just one river is avoided, then it will be worthwhile. I do take issue with one of Scott’s statements, though. Remember, I only post in reply to a query or discussion from someone else who, axiomatically, *is* interested in the subject.

Scott, you were the first poster on this subject. So one out of the dozens of your posts was NOT a repy. (OK, I may be picking at straws there, but read on.) Also, just the other day, you replied to a post that was completely unrelated (i.e. had nothing to do with access), and did so in a manner that seemed (to me) aimed at starting another big thread. Hence, you do not ONLY post to reply to questions about access, although I would agree that the vast majority of your posts are valid replies. If you had said that you "usually" or "generally only reply… then I would have no argument with your statement. -Paul

Response:

I apologize in advance, but there really is no diplomatic way to state this… ENOUGH WITH THE DAMN ACCESS DEBATE THREADS! I am a kayaker. I view and post to this newsgroup in order to keep abreast of new happenings in the sport I love. When I see three postings (or threads) involving a river access issue, I think "Good debate, there have been some valid issues presented here". When I see thirty posts, mostly by one individual, I think "These (expletive’in) people have nothing better to do with their time." Please, If you are absolutely hot-and-bothered to the point that you are treating this news group like your own personal chat-room, I understand…But keep it private, e-mail is really an ideal medium for this type of thing. Don’t clog this otherwise interesting group with twenty different post that are essentially the same in content. For the record, Yes, I do now know that Scott Weiser(sp?) is very familiar with private domain laws in Colorado and he would prefer that kayakers show a little more respect towards his family’s legal wishes. I also know that there are a lot of disrespectful boaters out there that believe once the water droplet leaves the cloud, it is there God-given right to use it at their convenience. Well folks, these are things I learned in the first few posts. I can see both sides of the argument, but really do not give a flying (expletive)! If you have any other opinions that you think I am interested in past that point, know that I am not. If any of you involved in this thread think of any other gems that need to be discussed pertaining to this topic. Please, WRITE YOUR (EXPLETIVE’IN) CONGRESSMAN OR SHUT THE (EXPLETIVE) UP! By the way, if any of you would like to paddle this weekend, let me know Let me out of this concrete jungle, -Craig "no playboat yet" Geist

Response:

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Category: Discontinue Use Of Zoloft In Lewy Body Caus
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Prescription Medication Knowledge Base » Eessential Tremor Effexor » Survey Results!!!

Survey Results!!!

Question:

Add another one to that number–numbers are my game! I have a degree in mathematics, and have made a living in the past both teaching math, and working as both a technical typist and an administrative assistant in the research area. I do all the gathering and tabulating numbers for the taxes, etc. for our repair service business that my husband and I run! And I have had migraines for about 40 years now! Barbara — Barbara Lemmond – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey, maybe that’s something that goes with migraines too! I enjoy tabulating and typing too. <g Vicky , Must be the "type A" migraine personality in us coming out! LOL Judy

Response:

Vicky , Must be the "type A" migraine personality in us coming out! LOL

<Helen A+!!! </Helen butting (went to http://www.peterzale.com and fell in love…) (oh, that’s a different Helen, btw…) — Bryce Utting http://www.cs.waikato.ac.nz/~butting the cross before me, the world behind me no turning back

Response:

Ingrid… I don’t know if you’re still taking results of the survey, but just in case….I had to add my two cents… Low BP (90/60) Cold Extremities Low Temperature (c. 97.4 degrees) Insomnia Fatigue Sinus problems Acute senses (hearing, smell, touch) Seziures Benign brain cyst Bruxism Mitral Valve Prolapse PTSD Good idea taking this survey! Thanks for taking the time to tabulate eveything…. Raven Cultural Advisor ~ Ceili Convention Committee The Once and Future Con ~ 12-14 June 1998 http://www.mindwell.com/~anubis/oafc "From this life to the next…."

Response:

Hey, maybe that’s something that goes with migraines too! I enjoy tabulating and typing too. <g

Vicky , Must be the "type A" migraine personality in us coming out! LOL Judy

Response:

See…..now *there* is a survey that Mario and I could take part in!!!! Bob

Gee, that sounds even more fun!!

Response:

Vicky , Must be the "type A" migraine personality in us coming out! LOL

<Helen A+!!! </Helen butting (went to http://www.peter-zale.com and fell in love…) — Bryce Utting http://www.cs.waikato.ac.nz/~butting the cross before me, the world behind me no turning back

Response:

PS, I’m glad you thought this was fun…I now know I have a kindred soul here (and one whose hubby has the same sick sense of humor mine does! LOL!)

Hey, maybe that’s something that goes with migraines too! I enjoy tabulating and typing too. <g — Vicky

Response:

JLR) writes: the same sick sense of humor mine does! LOL!)

See…..now *there* is a survey that Mario and I could take part in!!!! Bob Never Blame the Rainbows for the Rain [J.H.& R.T.]

Response:

PTSD 1 What is that?

PTSD=Post Traumatic Stress Disorder

Response:

Ingrid, Nice job on this!. I’m curious about a couple of things… I’m guessing that the female:male ratio on this is pretty high…do you happen to know? Also, am wondering if you just looked at those with the low BP, are there other prevalant symptoms going along with that… i.e., how many with low BP have cold extremities, low temperature, etc? Again, thanks for doing this! Judy PS, I’m glad you thought this was fun…I now know I have a kindred soul here (and one whose hubby has the same sick sense of humor mine does! LOL!)

Response:

PTSD 1 What is that?

I will take a stab at it and say Post Traumatic Stress Disorder? Ingrid — — My house is maintained for the comfort of my dogs, if you don’t like it – leave. —

– Charity bot food: http://www.e-scrub.com/cgi-bin/wpoison/wpoison.cgi Remove NoJunkMail and replace with slepcevc

Response:

Summary: 50 total responses Low BP 36 2 high BP Gastric Problems 18 Did not separate out for IBS Cold Extremities 17 Low Temperature 13 2 high Insomnia 12 Fast Pulse 12 Allergies 10 Fatigue 10 Depression 9 Raynauds Syndrome 6 Sinus Problems 6 Acute Senses 5 I lumped smell, hearing and sensitive eye Endometriosis 5 Asthma 4 Disc Problems 3 Geographic Tongue 3 Anxiety 2 Fibromyalgia 2 Motion Sickness 2 Osteoarthritis 2 Seizures 2 Vasomotor Rhinitis 2 ARAD/S 1 My almost son-in-law has that! Benign Essential Tremor 1 Blood Clots 1 Bruxism 1 Gallbladder 1 Low Thyroid 1 Mitral Valve Prolapse 1 PTSD 1 What is that? Rheumatic Fever 1 Shingles 1 Urinary Tract problems 1 From reading other threads I was under the impression that more people had seizures. Unfortunately, I could realistically only tabulate those under the "Common" thread. I left out symptoms occurring during migraines, since we were looking for "other" common problems. I still find the incidence of low BP amazing and was especially interested that a German doctor felt it should be treated. When I was home in Germany over Christmas my Mom’s doctor asked me what I was being treated with for the low BP. She was quite shocked that the doctors in the US don’t seem to think it important. This was fun! Ingrid — — My house is maintained for the comfort of my dogs, if you don’t like it – leave. —

Response:

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Category: Eessential Tremor Effexor
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Prescription Medication Knowledge Base » Do Xanax And Zoloft Hinder Libido » My Story and The American Tinnitus Association

My Story and The American Tinnitus Association

Question:

Hello to everyone. I am new to this and am so glad to find support from many others suffering from tinnitus. It seems that nobody in my family or any of my friends understand just how troublesome tinnitus can be. I only have T in my left ear and it absolutely drives me crazy! Sometimes I think that my sinuses cause the T to be worse (like today for instance – I live in Michigan and the humidity is 100% – YUCK!) Other times I think that my TMJ is causing the T since it is only on the left side of my jaw. And then I wonder if some of the medications that I am taking could be attributing to my T. I take zoloft and xanax for anxiety. I know that zoloft can cause tinnitus, but I have been taking it for a year now and I can’t just stop taking it. I have to taper myself off of the medicine. I also take two different medications for sinuses (claritin and rutuss) and high blood pressure medicine (atenelol). Yes, I know, I sound like a real mess! And I’m only 27 years old! I just recently went to a health food store and purchased some herbs to try to help some of my problems. I HATE being dependant on drugs! Not only that, but most of them don’t even seem to work! The sad thing is, I know that I am grasping at straws to try and find the answer to where my T is coming from. Some people seem to know exactly when their T started, but I can’t attribute the start of my tinnitus to an illness, taking aspirin, or anything else. I have read a lot of messages from people who are wondering if xanax is a good medication to take for T. If I may be blunt – PLEASE do not try xanax if you don’t absolutely have to. I have been on it for a little over a year for anxiety and my body has become chemically dependant upon it. My doctor is trying to slowly wean me off of it, but it is VERY DIFFICULT! Every day I tell myself that this is the day that I am just going to stop taking my xanax! But every day I end up taking 1 or 2, especially before I go to bed at night! Anyway, not only is my body chemically dependant on xanax, but it doesn’t help my T AT ALL! Just recently I called the American Tinnitus Association to order the publication of the International Tinnitus Seminar which occured on July 12-15th, 1995. The seminar was held in Portland and many tinnitus specialists attended, contributing their findings and treatments regarding tinnitus. The publication costs $25.00 plus Shipping and Handling. While I was on the phone, I was asked if I would like to subscribe to the American Tinnitus Association. This includes Tinnitus magazines that come out 4 times a year and all sorts of information, books, an audio tape, and other things that come up throughout the year. This was also $25.00. I just thought that I would share this information. It is about 1:20 A.M. and I couldn’t sleep due to a strange pulsing ringing in my ear. Gee, I wonder what that could be? If anyone would like the address, it is: American Tinnitus Association P.O. Box 5 Portland, OR 97207-0005 Or you can call and charge by phone at (503) 248-9985. If anyone else can’t sleep due to ringing in their ears, feel free to e-mail me anytime – I’ll probably be up and I love getting email! Leslie Grobbel

Response:

I too take Xanax and Zoloft. I too only have T on my left side. I too had not been bothered by T until about 4 months ago. It just started….no reason I can think of. ENT did a work up and said it is due to hearing loss and will probably get worse. I am not buying his explanation for a few reasons, one of which is that I felt the "brush off" cuz T isn’t that exciting to an ENT. I am trying Zinc and B12 sublingual. No noticable difference. My computer seems to make the T worse and I have taken to wearing earplugs when working on the computer. My T sort of "comes and goes"….silent (or barely audible) for a few days….loud as heck for a few more. You are correct about Xanax…very hard to get off once you start and I have been taking it for 3 years, so obviously if it was gonna work for T, it would have. I plan on just checking in periodically and dealing with this thing best I can. Good Luck Steve

Response:

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Category: Do Xanax And Zoloft Hinder Libido
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