Question:

"Kevin" <sevenths…@hotmail.com

wrote in message

news:MPG.14c266efb4650b0c9896bb@news.ntlworld.com…

Thanks for that story TC – what a tough decision, but it’s obvious that you had to do it. Providing a frame so that two other adults can ignore the mess they’ve made is not much of a life – and not really fair to anybody.

Sigh. You’re missing something rather significant, though.  TC left because she was in a bad relationship with an abusive alchoholic.  She needed to leave that relationship for her own health, safety and state of mind, if nothing else, and it was impossible to do so and still salvage the relationship with her–for all intents and purposes–stepdaughter. I’ve heard this type of advice from many of you–three this week, that I remember; I think nearly *all* of you at one point or another.  And I *know* that your advice comes from your concern for me, and I love you for that concern.  But one of these days I’m going to be what appears to be one of those spontaneous combustion cases–they’re going to walk in and find char and ashes all around my computer chair and nothing else damaged.  So please let me re-iterate and get out everything that I need to say, one last time. And then I have to stop discussing this with you all, because it exhausts me to have to explain myself over and over and I just cannot do it anymore. You folks want me to leave a perfectly good friendship with a person who just happens to be my ex-husband because *you* think I need to.  I disagree. If DH was a female roommate, would you all say that it was impossible for me to have a life while living here with her?  What if she had a child that I helped her with?  My friend’s best friend is a single mother and so my friend spends a lot of time and effort helping her raise her son.  Should she walk away too?  Because she has no ties to this child and needs to get on with her *own* life?  Merrie once asked me why I would continue a relationship that wasn’t going anywhere?  I remember it because it seemed like such a bizarre question to ask about a friendship.  Are your friendships "going" somewhere?  Are they all leading to marriage?  Because if they are, I think you’re right…I need to get new friends.  All of your concern hinges on the fact that he’s my ex-husband and this doesn’t follow the traditional divorce pattern, so everybody wants to tell me that it’s wrong or unhealthy. I never got my copy of The Big Book of Divorce, but I’ll tell you something…I consider mine pretty successful.  I have everything that I set out to have at the time that I left DH–things I never thought I would have again.  And I don’t feel that I’m losing *anything* in the process.  So if you’re all just holding your breath, waiting for the day that I cut off all ties with DH and stepson for no reason other than "so that I can get on with my life", I think you’d better find a new hobby.  I *have* gotten on with my life and, thankfully, have managed to keep one of my best friends and a relationship with the child that I love. You folks need to understand and appreciate that I’m not going anywhere anytime soon…and when I do, I won’t be going far.  I’ll still be best friends with DH, and will still be special friends with my stepson.  Until such time that something unavoidable happens–like a new woman in DH’s life–this is the way that things will continue.  Because *I* want it to. And, currently, so do DH and stepson.  It’s unorthodox, and I completely appreciate your not understanding it.  But socially, right now, I feel 100% fulfilled, just the way things are, and I have no desire to change it.  Get me a job and shave five years off my age, and I’d be very, very happy with my life right now. I know an awful lot of parasites–people who’s only concern for me is my ability to do things for them.  I just had this discussion earlier this year with Merrie, when I was trying to end a friendship with a person I no longer valued as a friend.  I’m currently dealing with two others–one being Roomie–and I’m just keeping my head above water with them, trying to see if there’s anything left to salvage.  The idea of leaving a wonderful, fulfilling friendship for absolutely no reason is ludicrous. When I left DH, I told my brother that my mom was worried about what the family would say.  He turned to me and said, "Leslie, anybody who was at that wedding would *not* be surprised that it turned out like this."  And it’s true–I never heard a word from anybody at my wedding.  My distant family, however, all think that I *need* to go back to him.  My distant friends think I *need* to cut off all ties with him completely.  The people who really know me and have actually met DH and I are all happy that things have turned out so well and that everyone is happy with the current situation.  What do you think that says? I’m not one of those people who think that support means agreeing with everything I say and do.  You’ve given me your advice and I’ve read it, understood where it was coming from, and appreciated it.  But I have to do what’s right for me and, having explained that all before, I cannot keep going in this same circle. lil — "It’s hard when you discover what keeps you going keeps you all alone."  – Blue Rodeo

Response:

You know, it’s not a hive mind here.

Buzz.  (Snicker.)  For some reason, that line of yours cracked me up, Anne.  I was kind of wondering where you were – I like to read something funny everyone now and then on here. ~~~~~~~~~~ Geri   ^   ^      

 ’  ’ <

"There is no snooze button on a cat who wants breakfast."- Anonymous ~~~~~~~~~~

Response:

"Jennaii" <jenn…@aol.com

wrote in message

news:20010110193658.15383.00000587@ng-fu1.aol.com…

Personalities – they already know they won’t kill each other and can

accept

their idiosyncrazies.

Here’s a funny little story.  When I moved to Toronto, I moved in with a cousin of my mother’s.  She had a spare bedroom that she rented out to college students and it was available at the time.  I’d never met her before and she was *very* nice.  I asked her how much she wanted for it and she said, "Well, you just get to Toronto and get yourself a job.  Then we’ll talk about rent." The third day I was there, I found a note that said that my rent for that month was to be $240.  When I found a job, she would raise it to $280.  And if I started eating more than I already was (I hadn’t touched a single item of food), she’d have to look into that as well. We lived in an apartment and the kitchen was tiny, but it was mostly taken up by a large, full-sized deep freeze.  Everything was frozen.  I would buy groceries, put them away, and the next day I’d find them in the freezer. Bread, cheese, milk…she thought that things that were frozen lasted longer and so she took the liberty of doing such with my things as well. She never slept.  One night I woke up to hammering on the bathroom wall, which was the same as my bedroom wall and right next to my head.  I woke to find that she’d turned our blue bathroom into a pink one.  The woman had painted and wallpapered.  We had this frilly pink shower curtain and pink towels and rugs.  There were little wicker hats and flowered pictures hung on the wall.  I mean, this woman had been *really* busy during the night. She would turn straight from Jeckyll to Hyde.  One night she talked me into attending the Thanksgiving services with her and her family (which, as we all remember, is my family as well).  I really didn’t want to, but the kids begged me not to make them suffer alone, so I went.  After *several* hours of service, they decided to break before starting the sing-along.  Her son was taking the kids home, so I arranged to have him drop me off on his way. When we met up with my cousin in the lobby, she said, sweetly, "You don’t mind staying, do you Leslie?"  I told her that I thought I had better be getting home, and she snapped, "Well, how do you think you’re going to get there???" She hated men.  She was constantly taking messages from my boyfriend that she never passed on and would tell me that he was seeing other women.  Men were responsible for everything bad that ever happened–except in the case of her sons.  With them, it was all their ex-wives’ faults. The worst part was her cat.  The woman worked a full-time job during the day, a part-time job most evenings, and went away every weekend, all weekend.  But she had a cat.  Now before you ask why I didn’t just let it into my room, I deathly allergic to cats.  Other people’s cats don’t bother me as much, but I cannot have them in my sleeping area for any real length of time.  So although she left her bedroom door open and the cat otherwise had the run of the entire apartment, it would park itself outside my door all night and *howl*!  I needed to get my rest so that I could work in the morning, so eventually I got myself a squirt gun.  Pretty soon the cat could recognize by the sound of my bedsprings that I was getting up and he’d take off like a shot.  Of course, he always came back. One day I made the horrible mistake of telling my cousin that the cat seemed to have fleas.  Thus began the flea baths.  She would douse the cat in flea solution and then lock it in the bathroom (which, as we all remember, is right behind my bedroom wall).  All night the cat would howl and pound on the door.  "MREOWWWW!!! Thump, thump, thump, thump, thump."  The first night a really horrible thought hit me–I had seen that the doorstop had been taken off the door and I’d replaced it.  One of those spring doorstops, with the rubber end.  So I laid there in bed, praying, "Please don’t find the doorstop!  Please don’t find the doorstop!"  The next second I heard, "MREOWWWW!!!  Thump, thump, thump, thump…PE-TWANG!!!!!"  The bloody cat found the doorstop. Are we starting to get why I don’t want anymore surprise roommates?  :-)

And he is "fine" with this situation.

<smile

Well, I don’t know about "fine", but he knows about it and he’s still here. I think he knows that until he makes me a better offer he doesn’t have much right to complain! lil — "It’s hard when you discover what keeps you going keeps you all alone."  – Blue Rodeo

Response:

I think it’s possible to just be good friends with your exhusband and live together as JUST GOOD FRIENDS.   This would be, in my mind, a "roommate" situation.  And if that roommate had a small child I cared about I would certainly voice my opinion.   As I would if it were my nieces or nephews or SD.  And if I felt the child’s wellbeing was at stake I would certainly feel comfortable venting here about it.   And there are other benefits to this arrangement too: Financially for one.  (*I* cannot live on what I make.  Period, the end.) Safety – my best roommates were men who were just friends.  My parents approved because they didn’t want me living alone and they liked that there was a "man" around. Personalities – they already know they won’t kill each other and can accept their idiosyncrazies. Lil HAS "moved on".  She has a boyfriend.   And he is "fine" with this situation.   Please keep posting Lil, and hugs.

If you have no interest in helping me work through it or find other options, it’s probably best if you all tell me that right now.

"This time: gonna do it RIGHT!" — Bob Seger Jennaii

Response:

"Anne Robotti" <arobo…@fastpointcom.com

wrote in message

news:3A5CD921.74D7DE5D@fastpointcom.com…

You know, it’s not a hive mind here. Some people probably are interested

in

helping you work through it or find other options. Some probably aren’t.

If

you can get something out of the board or contribute something, great. I

think

you’re getting in trouble because you’re thinking that everybody feels or

thinks

this or that about your situation, which is not true. I mean, I think it’s

hurting

your feelings and you’re missing out on some stuff.

Oh no, definitely…I didn’t mean to imply that at all.  I know of a number of people who fully appreciate my situation, others who seem to straddle the fence and come down on whichever side seems to apply at the time, and then–of course–others still who think I’m dead wrong. I’m feeling a little displaced is all, Anne.  Actually, I’m feeling a *lot* displaced.  I don’t necessarily belong here anymore, and I feel it.  But I don’t belong anywhere else, either, so I stay.  But when it looks to me like the majority of the others feel that I’m in the wrong place as well, I have to seriously rethink the situation.

I didn’t know there was a specific issue you were looking for help with

right

now. Is it the medicine thing?

No, the medicine thing was a vent.  I was frustrated–very frustrated.  As I said to Melissa, I’d feel the same about any child that was being unecessarily medicated because the mother wanted a scape goat.  If I lived in a house, I’d probably walk into the bathroom, lock the door and scream and scream until I got it all out of my system.  As it is, I live in an apartment and I couldn’t complain about the idiots downstairs if I started making more noise than they do.  So, since you guys knew about it all, I did my screaming here.  Then I painted a smile on my face, turned around and said, "Has <stepson

had his medication yet?"  I keeps me from becoming a

shrew.  It makes my living arrangement a lot more comfortable when I’m not screaming to Rob about something that I already *know* is not really my business (although, as I said to Melissa, as soon as I feel it oversteps the line between unecessary medication and abuse, I firmly believe it becomes my business). And just maybe I was hoping for a comment or two like Jennaii’s, when she said that she thought that biomom should be medicated.  :-)

What if my advice would be, "Let SS’s parents deal with this and here are the ten reasons I think that’s what I would do

in

your situation"? Should I not post that? Or are you just asking for more

sen-

sitivity?

I’d like to think that we all know that I don’t come here to be stroked–I’ve never asked for it and I can’t recall ever expecting it.  Most of my favorite responses have come from you, Kim and Jane Lawrence, and none of you can be accused of being overly subtle.  :-) I’d *like* to know your top ten reasons for letting his parents deal with it.  Unless they’re all "IT’S NOT YOUR BUSINESS", that will give me ten things to chew on for awhile.  And in the end, you might very well find me agreeing with you.  It might seem hard to believe, but I’m not interested in making excuses for myself.  I’m hard headed and unbelievably stubborn, but I welcome having a flip-side of things pointed out to me.  If I didn’t, I wouldn’t be here. At any rate, my comment to Melissa was sort of generic and–short of someone dealing with Roomie for me–there *is* nothing in particularly I’m looking for right now.  But I will admit to being a little nervous about the next time I am. lil — "It’s hard when you discover what keeps you going keeps you all alone."  – Blue Rodeo

Response:

lilblakdog wrote:

The point to this post was exactly that.  This option doesn’t work for me. If you have no interest in helping me work through it or find other options, it’s probably best if you all tell me that right now.

You know, it’s not a hive mind here. Some people probably are interested in helping you work through it or find other options. Some probably aren’t. If you can get something out of the board or contribute something, great. I think you’re getting in trouble because you’re thinking that everybody feels or thinks this or that about your situation, which is not true. I mean, I think it’s hurting your feelings and you’re missing out on some stuff. I didn’t know there was a specific issue you were looking for help with right now. Is it the medicine thing? What if my advice would be, "Let SS’s parents deal with this and here are the ten reasons I think that’s what I would do in your situation"? Should I not post that? Or are you just asking for more sen- sitivity? Anne

Response:

"Melissa " <laa…@aol.comspamfree

wrote in message

news:20010110112100.12429.00000803@ng-mh1.aol.com…

Are you this involved with any of your friends kids?  Would you ever feel comfortable doing

that? No and yes…which is the reason I’m not.  I have one close friend who has children.  I was there from day one with the oldest–spending days holding and feeding and cuddling, so that my friend would be able to sleep or shower or do whatever it is she needed to do.  I’ve had an extremely strong bond with him from the first moment I saw him in the hospital.  I have all kinds of problems with the way my friend raises him and it’s caused some very ugly moments.  So I meet my friend for lunch when she’s working and stay away from them as a family.

If you and Dh are truly just friends than your role in his son’s life is alot less than your role as his

stepmom. Of course it is.  And I’ve adjusted it accordingly.

There are certain things that no matter how hard the are for you to let go

of

are not yours to deal with any more, and what medication your friend puts

his

son on is one of them

This isn’t true.  If the neighbors were beating their children, it would be my business.  When I have knowledge of a circumstance where I know that a child is receiving incorrect and possibly harmful medication *because his mother orchestrated it that way*, I see that as my business too.  I’m not saying anything to DH, but if I notice significant negative changes in stepson’s behavior, or find alarming new information about the drug, you’d better believe that I’ll be sending a letter outlining my concerns to social services.

If she were your former lover I would. You and Dh aren’t just friends but friends that used to be married.  the dynamic of the relationship is automatically going to change.  You are not merely friends you are friends

that

shared a marriage.  It’s not the same thing, and can’t compare.

No, *you* see it as not the same thing.  *I* don’t.  I don’t go along with the idea that what is one way for some people *has* to be that way for everybody.  I’m the only one who knows what sort of role our relatioship played in my life and the impact that it made.

I can almost guarentee that you would not have the same emotional

attachment to

that child that you would with SS.

You’d be wrong.  I have very much the same attachment to my best friend’s oldest child, as well as the two boys I’ve been involved with for the last 18.5 years.

Because Lil many of us don’t view your relationship with Dh as a

friendship. Again, this is not my concern.  *I* do view it that way.

you still live with him, still refer to him as DH and not DF, still think

of SS

as your SS and not the son of your friend.

So this is where the problem comes from?  Because I still refer to him as DH?  Well, I do it for sake of clarity, as I’ve pointed out to you before. But since it’s obviously still a concern, from now on he’ll be Rob.  But don’t expect me to use a child’s name or start referring to him as "the son of my friend".  If everybody wants me to switch over to "Chuck" or "Bob" or something, because it’s easier for everybody to deal with, I’ll be more than happy to.

The fact that your friends with you ex is not wrong and unhealthy, the

fact

that you two might still be playing husband and wife in some cases might

be

unhealthy.

GOOD LORD, where on earth do you get this idea?????????? The very idea that Rob and I play husband and wife is ludicrous…anybody who’s actually seen us together (Nikki, for instance) will be happy to back that up.  I *myself* have a hard time imagining what things were like when we were more than friends, it so far from my mind.  Rob is Rob.  I am me. We’re a better option for each other than living alone.  It doesn’t mean we have illusions of playing "husband and wife".  A good 60% of our problem was that I didn’t *want* to be married…I’m sure as heck not going to fantasize about it now!

 Your continued involvement in SS’s life, might be unhealthy for your own psyche.

I grew up in a neighborhood where I was raised by over two dozen families, as well as certain teachers and church members–not to mention extended family members and friends.  A lot of those people were from other countries, like Italy, Scotland, Fiji and the Philapines.  A couple of them were commune households of hippies.  One house was primarily First Nation. Some would play music or make crafts; others would just watch television and talk.  One even taught my friend and I summer school, when we were out for vacation. I consider myself very fortunate to have that kind of input in my life.  I’m not black and white–I’m rainbow coloured.  So if you want to tell me that putting an effort into making a difference in a  child’s life might be unhealthy for my psyche, you’ll have to excuse me for disagreeing whole-heartedly.  I can’t think of anything else in the world that’s more fulfilling.

No Lil.  What you do with DH and SS really doesn’t matter much in the

grand

scheme of my life, but when you post you have to expect that we’ll have opinions about all of this.

Yes.  And when I say that option doesn’t work for me, I expect people to understand that.  If they have nothing further to suggest, so be it. Perhaps there’s another option, though, that they can suggest. The point to this post was exactly that.  This option doesn’t work for me. If you have no interest in helping me work through it or find other options, it’s probably best if you all tell me that right now. lil — "It’s hard when you discover what keeps you going keeps you all alone."  – Blue Rodeo

Response:

The point to this post was exactly that.  This option doesn’t work for me. If you have no interest in helping me work through it or find other options, it’s probably best if you all tell me that right now. lil —

Whoa Lil!!!   I am so sorry that this has strayed so far from your original issues. It seems that the main focus for ‘a few’ has become re-defining lil’s relationship with DH, and SS…  I realize that this may or may not make a whole lot of difference to you, but I personally admire you for the role that you have ‘chosen’ to take in your SS’s life.   I would almost equate your role as a very active aunt, and friend. (not that it is my job to define anything in your life) it seems to be easier for me to equate you and DH as brother and sister when I read your posts.  We know that there are others on this board, like Jana who has a nephew that she cared for and had to deal with issues of her brother, and her nephew.  I did not ever hear anyone say that she should step out of her nephews life.  Then there is me with my Step Grand-daughter, where most were telling me I should try to get primary custody of her (although that has several difficulties in itself). It was never suggested to me that I should just abandon her to the elements. Maybe I am a bit more open minded than some (not all), because of my upbringing.  I was brought up around a very eclectic group of people, ranging from (what other people might call) dirty bikers (yes, actually a few of them did not bathe very often), stunt men, etc…  My mother was one of the few Women in the 70’s, and 80’s who actually owned and maintained her own Harley Davidson. To going to fancy balls in Beverly Hills, Movie stars, and some people in very high political offices.  My Aunt owns an NFL Football team, and my oldest sister ran for Lieutenant Governor of California. I would honestly say that what ever works for you, then so be it!!!   I have a best friend in my life right now, that has been involved with my life and family for the past 6 years, she has known my daughter since she was two, and she is known to all around us as Aunt ****.  I turn to her for advice on many things, even though she has never had children of her own I would be ’shocked’ if she saw something going on in DD8’s life and did not say anything about it, or try to do anything about it.  She has a ‘very’ strong connection to DD8 (and a very strong personality to boot), and I respect her opinion greatly.  There was a time when I was very ill, and I could not even walk to the bathroom my self for several months, and this woman kindly came into my home, and took over all of the things that I was not able to do.  I could not even pick my daughter up to give her a hug, and this lovely woman came in and gave a large piece of her heart to us and generously gave something to my daughter that she desperately needed at the time.  We have since have had many re-defining moments in our lives, from being friends, to her being my employee, and friend, to her becoming a primary caregiver to my child, to her getting together with a man who has children moving into a new relationship with him , gaining step children, having to not work for me anymore, and being friends again.  I miss our daily interaction sometimes, and I accuse her of ‘abandonment’ when she is particularly busy, but I would not change her for the world!!!  In many ways your strength, and caring heart remind me of her I can speak for myself, and I am sure that there are others who agree, when I say that I would be more than willing to help you try to work through your difficulties, and look for other options in your situation.  Nothing in life is ever black and white, besides I think I prefer rainbows anyway And just for good measure, because it sounds like you really need it I am sending bunches of (((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((HUGS)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))) )))))) your way!!!!!! — Victoria… ~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~ http://www.emerysdiesel.com ~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~ When you think you have no chance at getting what you want, you probably won’t get it, but if you believe in yourself, you probably sooner or later will get it.

Response:

<T.C.

wrote in message news:3a5a57e5.932923110@enews.newsguy.com… No offense taken on my part – and dammit, you’re gonna come to Nashville some time.

<<<<<<<<<BREATH OUT

I’ve been holding my breath since I wrote back to you.  I’m so glad you weren’t angry. And Nashville is *so* high up on my list of priorities, you’d be amazed. It’s somewhere right below "get a job" and just above "pay the Sears bill". lil  (who’s gonna go check out airfare prices again, just for fun!) — "It’s hard when you discover what keeps you going keeps you all alone."  – Blue Rodeo

Response:

You folks want me to leave a perfectly good friendship with a person who just happens to be my ex-husband because *you* think I need to.  I disagree.

Lil this has nothing to do with leaveing a friendship.  Are you this involved with any of your friends kids?  Would you ever feel comfortable doing that? I’m not saying that you have to even move away but you dod need to step back and let DH and BM handle this for themselves.  If you and Dh are truly just friends than your role in his son’s life is alot less than your role as his stepmom. There are certain things that no matter how hard the are for you to let go of are not yours to deal with any more, and what medication your friend puts his son on is one of them

If DH was a female roommate, would you all say that it was impossible for me to have a life while living here with her?  

If she were your former lover I would. You and Dh aren’t just friends but friends that used to be married.  the dynamic of the relationship is automatically going to change.  You are not merely friends you are friends that shared a marriage.  It’s not the same thing, and can’t compare.

What if she had a child that I helped her with?  

I can almost guarentee that you would not have the same emotional attachment to that child that you would with SS.

Merrie once asked me why I would continue a relationship that wasn’t going anywhere?  I remember it because it seemed like such a bizarre question to ask about a friendship.  Are your friendships "going" somewhere?  Are they all leading to marriage?

Because Lil many of us don’t view your relationship with Dh as a friendship. you still live with him, still refer to him as DH and not DF, still think of SS as your SS and not the son of your friend.  Also I don’t think that you would ever be involved with a friend’s child the way you are with DH’s son.

All of your concern hinges on the fact that he’s my ex-husband and this doesn’t follow the traditional divorce pattern, so everybody wants to tell me that it’s wrong or unhealthy.

The fact that your friends with you ex is not wrong and unhealthy, the fact that you two might still be playing husband and wife in some cases might be unhealthy.  Your continued involvement in SS’s life, might be unhealthy for your own psyche.

So if you’re all just holding your breath, waiting for the day that I cut off all ties with DH and stepson for no reason other than "so that I can get on with my life", I think you’d better find a new hobby.

No Lil.  What you do with DH and SS really doesn’t matter much in the grand scheme of my life, but when you post you have to expect that we’ll have opinions about all of this.

But I have to do what’s right for me and, having explained that all before, I cannot keep going in this same circle. lil

well then do what you were already doing Lil. Love, Melissa "I’m a born again Q".

Response:

"Kim Scheinberg" <i…@panix.com

wrote in message

news:93d1go$ebr$1@panix6.panix.com…

Lil, I’ve written and rejected maybe a dozen responses to this. None of them were particularly kind, though they all came from genuine concern

<grin

I wouldn’t expect you to be particularly kind.  And I know that anything you have to say comes from genuine concern, because you’re not the kind to waste your breath on people you don’t really give a rat’s ass about.

You have been here for years telling us you’re allergic to strawberries.

Almonds.  I’m allergic to almonds.  Several years back, when I was *finally* diagnosed with asthma, I was sent for allergy testing.  Cat hair, feathers, dust, nearly every kind of tree or grass, raw corn, raw peas, raw beans and almonds. Most of this was alright with me.  I hate cats.  I *loath* birds.  Dust gets in my way occasionally, as do the trees or grass, but I’m not dying to live like The Boy in the Plastic Bubble.  Corn and peas can always be cooked and I’ve been looking for a reason to avoid beans since I was a small child. But I told the allergist that almonds were not an option–I wasn’t going to give them up. Since he’d now mentioned it, I did see that almonds caused my asthma to act up.  Nothing life threatening, but an occasionally irritating problem. Still, I liked almonds and I wasn’t planning to give that up because he thought that I needed to.  I would just have to learn to work around the problem.  He could continue to tell me I have to stop eating the almonds while I continue to smile benignly and let it drift out the other ear, or he could accept that and we could talk about other solutions. So I still eat almonds because the problem they cause does not outweigh my liking them.  And when I start to cough, I give myself a shot of FloVent and carry on.

Everything else is just rationalization and bullshit

Bullshit, I don’t know about.  I believe everything I’m saying, but I’m not always the brightest crayon in the box.  Rationalization, sure.  Like I said to Martha, I have this bizarre notion that I owe more than a "no thanks" to you guys.  I’ve always been like that–I answer questions with a story. At any rate, the rationalizations have a point.  I’m not here because I’m hell bent on proving you guys wrong.  Ask my mom…nothing anybody’s ever said has had any real influence on how I actually decide to live my life.  I tell you that I won’t give up almonds for all the reasons you say I won’t give up strawberries and more.  But the fact of the matter is simple–I like them.  Likewise with DH.  So far that still outweighs the things that bother me. lil — "It’s hard when you discover what keeps you going keeps you all alone."  – Blue Rodeo

Response:

<filipi…@osu.edu

wrote in message

news:filipic.3-0801011124120001@164.107.35.122…

I think a lot of the feedback you’ve been getting has stemmed from things you’ve told us… here’s one item I believe you wrote…

Yes, I said that the idea of packing up and leaving was tempting.  And I don’t know which thread that was (I keep no record of anything that I’m not thrilled about DH reading), but the Paxil thread was very clearly labled a vent.  I have days where it would be easier to pack up and leave my life–I’m sure you do, too.  That day they stemmed from stepson’s medication.  Some days they stem from my bills.  My bills are *far* more difficult to overcome than my problems with stepson.  I could declare bankruptcy tomorrow–I have no assets to lose and I’d never have to worry about these bills again.  That’s the easy way out.  It’s harder to make a commitment to take responsibility for something that you took on with your eyes open.  So do I still fantasize about bankruptcy?  You bet.  Would I like myself much if I did it?  Nope.

I think people here understand those kinds of difficulties more than they understand the positives you experience in the relationship you have with your ex.

Exactly.  And as I said, I truly love you all for the concern that you have for me.  I’m just tired of feeling that I have to explain why somebody else’s solution isn’t right for me.  Certainly not right now.  Maybe not ever.  To be totally honest, with a little more fine tuning this kind of a living arrangement really agrees with me.  Anne was very close to the mark when she called it a marriage without sex.  But it’s also a marriage without guilt or encumbrances.  I’m free to do what I like–travel where I like, hang out where I like, date who I like.  So is DH.  And when we come home, there’s somebody here to talk to.  This works for me.

Don’t worry so much about explaining every last detail to all of us. Take what is helpful, and let the rest slide away to internet-oblivion.

Sigh. Therein lies the problem, though.  Sometimes it’s hard to see the concern and I just feel like you all are waiting to see who wins the break-up pool. And private e-mails are so much more difficult to ignore than posts, because they’re right there in your face from people that you love and who you know care about what happens to you.  And "thanks, but no," doesn’t seem to cut it as a response–especially when people have trusted you with their own painful history as an example. lil — "It’s hard when you discover what keeps you going keeps you all alone."  – Blue Rodeo

Response:

"lilblakdog" <lbdcreati…@dog.com

writes You folks want me to leave a perfectly good friendship with a person who just happens to be my ex-husband because *you* think I need to.  I disagree.

Lil, I’ve written and rejected maybe a dozen responses to this. None of them were particularly kind, though they all came from genuine concern You have been here for years telling us you’re allergic to strawberries. You give us the details of every rash that occurs after eating them (most especially, I’ll note, on Halloween and Xmas). You relay agonizing details about the short-term effects these strawberries have, and occasionally wonder if they might not have long-term effects, too When we tell you in all manner of ways to STOP EATING THE STRAWBERRIES you remind us how good they taste, how much you enjoy them, how you’ve devoted years to collecting and perfecting various strawberry recipes. You’re invested in strawberries. You have strawberry bushes in your yard. You have a wholesale strawberry business you can’t afford to give up You’ve stopped eating them, you say. Now you’ve reduced your life to growing them and picking them and cooking with them and just enjoying the scent. They benefit your life somehow Guess what? You’re still having allergic reactions. Maybe you don’t wash your hands well enough after handling them. Maybe it’s absorbed through your skin. I don’t know BUT THE STRAWBERRIES ARE SLOWLY KILLING YOU Everything else is just rationalization and bullshit Find a new business, Lil. Grow a different garden. Get out. How many people need to observe this? How many of us can be so wrongity-wrong? -k.

Response:

Hi lil, I understand the frustration you’re feeling right now. But I think a lot of the feedback you’ve been getting has stemmed from things you’ve told us… here’s one item I believe you wrote:

I know.  But the only way to do it would be to actually pack up and leave, cutting them off completely.  And that idea is *soooo* tempting right now, to be totally honest with you.  I can’t think about this stuff, because it’s killing me.  The idea of feeding *my* child unnecessary drugs makes me sick.

It almost sounds as if you wanted to hear that it would be OK if you decided to just remove yourself totally from the situation. And I think people here responded to that. But of course it’s OK to stick with it, too, if that’s what you want to do. In fact, as long as you have the strength and energy and desire to continue it, it sounds like the input you’ll have on SS’s life will be an incredibly positive influence. It could become difficult at times, because as a step, you’re at the mercy of the bioparents’ wishes. And I think people here understand those kinds of difficulties more than they understand the positives you experience in the relationship you have with your ex. Don’t worry so much about explaining every last detail to all of us. Take what is helpful, and let the rest slide away to internet-oblivion. All the best, Martha In article <2L566.2705$O8.32…@newscontent-01.sprint.ca

, "lilblakdog"

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -<lbdcreati…@dog.com

wrote: Sigh. You’re missing something rather significant, though.  TC left because she was in a bad relationship with an abusive alchoholic.  She needed to leave that relationship for her own health, safety and state of mind, if nothing else, and it was impossible to do so and still salvage the relationship with her–for all intents and purposes–stepdaughter. I’ve heard this type of advice from many of you–three this week, that I remember; I think nearly *all* of you at one point or another.  And I *know* that your advice comes from your concern for me, and I love you for that concern.  But one of these days I’m going to be what appears to be one of those spontaneous combustion cases–they’re going to walk in and find char and ashes all around my computer chair and nothing else damaged.  So please let me re-iterate and get out everything that I need to say, one last time. And then I have to stop discussing this with you all, because it exhausts me to have to explain myself over and over and I just cannot do it anymore. You folks want me to leave a perfectly good friendship with a person who just happens to be my ex-husband because *you* think I need to.  I disagree. If DH was a female roommate, would you all say that it was impossible for me to have a life while living here with her?  What if she had a child that I helped her with?  My friend’s best friend is a single mother and so my friend spends a lot of time and effort helping her raise her son.  Should she walk away too?  Because she has no ties to this child and needs to get on with her *own* life?  Merrie once asked me why I would continue a relationship that wasn’t going anywhere?  I remember it because it seemed like such a bizarre question to ask about a friendship.  Are your friendships "going" somewhere?  Are they all leading to marriage?  Because if they are, I think you’re right…I need to get new friends.  All of your concern hinges on the fact that he’s my ex-husband and this doesn’t follow the traditional divorce pattern, so everybody wants to tell me that it’s wrong or unhealthy. I never got my copy of The Big Book of Divorce, but I’ll tell you something…I consider mine pretty successful.  I have everything that I set out to have at the time that I left DH–things I never thought I would have again.  And I don’t feel that I’m losing *anything* in the process.  So if you’re all just holding your breath, waiting for the day that I cut off all ties with DH and stepson for no reason other than "so that I can get on with my life", I think you’d better find a new hobby.  I *have* gotten on with my life and, thankfully, have managed to keep one of my best friends and a relationship with the child that I love. You folks need to understand and appreciate that I’m not going anywhere anytime soon…and when I do, I won’t be going far.  I’ll still be best friends with DH, and will still be special friends with my stepson.  Until such time that something unavoidable happens–like a new woman in DH’s life–this is the way that things will continue.  Because *I* want it to. And, currently, so do DH and stepson.  It’s unorthodox, and I completely appreciate your not understanding it.  But socially, right now, I feel 100% fulfilled, just the way things are, and I have no desire to change it.  Get me a job and shave five years off my age, and I’d be very, very happy with my life right now. I know an awful lot of parasites–people who’s only concern for me is my ability to do things for them.  I just had this discussion earlier this year with Merrie, when I was trying to end a friendship with a person I no longer valued as a friend.  I’m currently dealing with two others–one being Roomie–and I’m just keeping my head above water with them, trying to see if there’s anything left to salvage.  The idea of leaving a wonderful, fulfilling friendship for absolutely no reason is ludicrous. When I left DH, I told my brother that my mom was worried about what the family would say.  He turned to me and said, "Leslie, anybody who was at that wedding would *not* be surprised that it turned out like this."  And it’s true–I never heard a word from anybody at my wedding.  My distant family, however, all think that I *need* to go back to him.  My distant friends think I *need* to cut off all ties with him completely.  The people who really know me and have actually met DH and I are all happy that things have turned out so well and that everyone is happy with the current situation.  What do you think that says? I’m not one of those people who think that support means agreeing with everything I say and do.  You’ve given me your advice and I’ve read it, understood where it was coming from, and appreciated it.  But I have to do what’s right for me and, having explained that all before, I cannot keep going in this same circle. lil — "It’s hard when you discover what keeps you going keeps you all alone."  – Blue Rodeo

Response:

Okay, so the medication is really just the tip of a rather jagged iceberg. I’m noticing some things in the past year that really have me concerned. And yeah, I know…it’s none of my business.  But they’ve still got me concerned. They seem to have begun around the time Nikki came to visit.  Why that would trigger a problem, I’m not sure…although biomom was *livid* that Nikki, DH and I stayed in the hotel that DH and biomom used to have their torrid weekends in.  And insisted that we didn’t introduce Nikki to her (even though she didn’t even bother to come out of the back of the house when we arrived), so that she felt like a second-class citizen in her own home). *And* stepson was full of "Nikki did this" and "Nikki did that" when he got home.  Anyhow, it seemed to have brought out all her anger at DH leaving her and marrying me (*years* in between, but nonetheless…). Less than a week later, she decided to pull DH’s spring visitation at the last minute.  We didn’t see him again for over a month.  I don’t know what was said when DH had stepson phone her during our camping trip, but he was in tears for hours afterward…then she tried to cut our vacation short. And yes, there were extenuating circumstances, but she was still *really* put out that DH wouldn’t rush him home immediately upon her request.  And I think she was even more angry that it was stepson himself who decided that he’d prefer to camp…I don’t think she ever expected that he’d one day choose us over her.  She refused to let us have him for Halloween.  For *some* reason (DH says it was his idea, but it doesn’t fit his profile and *does* fit hers), we didn’t see stepson on Christmas.  And our "half of vacation" was whittled down to the three days of New Year’s weekend.  She called on the second day, during dinner, and wanted to talk to stepson.  He told her he was eating but she still had him on the phone for nearly twenty minutes–wanting to know what he got for Christmas, what he was doing, where he slept, WHERE DH AND I SLEPT (at which point I very nearly took the phone away from him and hung it up, and *will* the next time), etc.  Then she told DH she wanted him to call her back at midnight.  She saw him the day before and was seeing him again the next day…I don’t get the point.  This was supposed to be DH’s weekend (one of only *four* in the past year), and yet it seemed to revolve around her. I know she’s been furious that DH won’t rush to her side anymore, whenever she screams crisis.  I’m sure she thought that DH would want to attend her father’s funeral, and asking him to come home would just seem obvious.  The medication just seems to be one more attention grabber–like the eurology testing and the zillions of trips to the emergency room.  But I feel like we’re poisoning him against our will (and yes, it is "us", because DH doesn’t remember to give him the medication).  And she behaves as though she’s put one over on us.  She hands DH the medication with a smug look on her face and practically *dares* him to challenge her.  And the fact that DH *doesn’t* makes my blood run even colder.  How can a man who cares so much do so little??? I’ve cried over this.  I’ve lost sleep.  I’ve thrown up.  I feel like throwing up just writing about it.  Sometimes I wonder why she doesn’t just put a bullet to his head, so that she and DH can "share" in their grief.  I honestly don’t know what kind of a life he’ll have otherwise.  She resents his making his own decisions if it doesn’t work in her favor.  Any time DH doesn’t do exactly as she wants, she does something more to stepson.  This time it’s anti-depressants.  Next time will it be a labotomy, like Frances Farmer?  I don’t know where it all ends.  And stepson’s nothing more to her than a voodoo doll she can hug one minute and stick a pin into the next. But what do I do?  Walk away?  It would help me, but what will it do to stepson?  How can I punish him for something his mother is doing?  He needs all the sane, rational support he can get, but it’s really, really killing me to watch this unfold.  I feel like picking him up and running as far and fast as possible–away from both of his screwy parents! lil — "It’s hard when you discover what keeps you going keeps you all alone."  – Blue Rodeo

Response:

    I don’t know how Lindsay would interpret your past actions, but I suspect it would be beneficial for her to know that in regards to her parents – it’s them not her – that are screwed up.     It sometimes seems so obvious – but often not to the kid. Merrie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

I dream sometimes of trying to track down Lindsay when she is older. To try to explain to her why I had to leave.  Some day when she is old enough to understand it.  I still question whether this would be beneficial or detrimental to her.  Maybe some day she will find me again.

Response:

In article <3a54d380.505886…@enews.newsguy.com

, posted Thu, 04 Jan

2001 02:49:44 GMT, T.C. says… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

On Mon, 1 Jan 2001 15:30:59 -0800, "lilblakdog" <lbdcreati…@dog.com wrote: But what do I do?  Walk away?  It would help me, but what will it do to stepson?  How can I punish him for something his mother is doing?  He needs all the sane, rational support he can get, but it’s really, really killing me to watch this unfold.  I feel like picking him up and running as far and fast as possible–away from both of his screwy parents! Ok Lil,this may make me really unpopular but here goes… At some point you will just have to walk away. I lived with a man who was an alcoholic and had two daughters.  Their mother was a bona-fide wacko – she’d already been remarried twice when I came on the scene (the girls were 3 and 5).  I was the sanest person in their lives and the oldest child, Lindsay and I developed a very close, very special bond.  Lindsay’s mother was intimidated by the child’s intelligence and either degraded her or ignored her – I encouraged her to grow and develop her intelligence.  I tried to instill self confidence in her, tried to nurture her, tried to help her as best I could. She was 8 the day I walked out the door.  I *had* to go.  I could no longer live with a man that was co-dependent, emotionally abusive, and becoming physically abusive.  I could no longer support him financially while at the same time post-poning my own education and growth.  *I* had to go.  I had to go for *me*. I will never forget Lindsay standing on the front porch screaming for me not to leave.  I still cry when I think about it. A few years later I met DH – I’d sworn I would never get involved with another man with kids.  But he got to me.  I had to have him and I’ve never regretted marrying him.  But I wouldn’t have him, I wouldn’t have grown into the person I am, I wouldn’t have *finally* found happiness if I had stayed in a bad relationship for a child that wasn’t mine.   It crossed my mind several times over the years to try to contact Lindsay.  She found me once when I moved to Nashville and we talked for a short time on the phone.  But it was better that I stayed silent for the most part.  I could only cause her more pain as I couldn’t be there for her on a regular basis.  I couldn’t help her.  I saw her father last year and he told me that she was in a treatment center. She was having emotional problems.  He lost custody after I left – he couldn’t hold it together without me, or he chose not to.  It was easier to blame me for leaving.  Her mother continued with her wacky behavior and she eventually lost *both* girls, the younger is living with her paternal grandmother (a good woman, I might add, despite the fact that she *hates* me).  It hurt me to hear about what happened to them, but I had done everything I could.  It boiled down to the fact that I was not a parent, I had no say in their lives.  And, no matter how much I wanted to, I could not take them with me.  I could not sacrifice my future and the future of my as-yet-to-be-born children. I dream sometimes of trying to track down Lindsay when she is older. To try to explain to her why I had to leave.  Some day when she is old enough to understand it.  I still question whether this would be beneficial or detrimental to her.  Maybe some day she will find me again. Lil, you can’t change either of his parents – they have to change themselves.  It sounds like neither one of them is ready to do that. You, on the other hand, are making changes in your life.  You are trying to move forward and grow.  I think you should move on.  It’ll hurt, terribly.  And there will always be some regret – but you need to do it. If I were I your shoes, I would find another apartment and move out. Even if it’s a hovel – you need your own space and a break from this situation. DH needs to stand on his own two feet, and he won’t do that as long as you continue to give him a place to ‘lean’.  He needs to learn to take care of SS himself.  BM shows no signs of changing, but she doesn’t have to as long as she’s got you to back her up as well. Cut them both loose.  Make your own future – don’t let them dictate what it will be.

Thanks for that story TC – what a tough decision, but it’s obvious that you had to do it. Providing a frame so that two other adults can ignore the mess they’ve made is not much of a life – and not really fair to anybody. Kevin — Quotes of a five year old girl "Life. It can be scary sometimes, you know, like when there’s a fire or it’s dark or blah blah blah."

Response:

In article <Llr46.9191$EX5.95…@newscontent-01.sprint.ca

, posted Tue, 2

Jan 2001 13:04:49 -0800, lilblakdog says…

"Melissa " <laa…@aol.comspamfree wrote in message news:20010102121023.00467.00000871@ng-fj1.aol.com… Yes Lil, you are stressing yourself to the breaking point over a situation you can do nothing about.  You and DH are divorced, he won’t step up to the plate, BM will take advantage of it.  It’s going to happen.  There is nothing you can do. I know.  But the only way to do it would be to actually pack up and leave, cutting them off completely.  And that idea is *soooo* tempting right now, to be totally honest with you.  I can’t think about this stuff, because it’s killing me.  The idea of feeding *my* child unnecessary drugs makes me sick.

There’s something in here that keeps niggling at me. Something to do with relationship balances. It seems to me, Lil, that you fulfill a very specific role in the life of stepson, taking up responsibilities which normally would come from the parents. Is it possible, that should you withdraw from the situation,  - besides being probably healthier for you – that it would actually trigger off some latent similar parenting integrity in Biomom and DH which are at the moment your ‘property’? I have seen this happen, and it doesn’t happen quick. However right now, you could be in a way enabling them both to be complacent. There’s no need for them to change because . . you’re there doing the hard work which covers up their mistakes…. It’s a tough decision, because you would never know until after the fact whether it was right or not. Kevin — Quotes of a five year old girl "If I look for a long time at myself in the mirror I start to look grown up. It’s starting to happen now. I’m growing, like beans. So mirrors are very special."

Response:

"Kevin" <sevenths…@hotmail.com

wrote in message

news:MPG.14bc8b876f5e84259896b6@news.ntlworld.com…

Is it possible, that should you withdraw from the situation,  - besides being probably healthier for you – that it would actually trigger off some latent similar parenting integrity in Biomom and DH which are at the moment your ‘property’?

Uh-uh.  Biomom lives in total denial of what I do, and goes to great lengths to destroy any progress I make, immediately after I make it.  The only thing that my disappearing will do for her is that she’ll be able to continue as she wishes without anybody lobbying for stepson and what is actually best for him.  Biomom would be perfectly happy to have stepson live with her forever, totally dependent on her.  She has often seemed to me (her father’s death being an excellent for-instance) incapable of dealing with certain things without stepson being with her. As for DH, I can very nearly guarantee you that he will allow stepson to slip out of his life completely.  He had neglected all of his friendships to near death until I came on the scene and revived them.  I got them all into varrying degrees of health before giving up completely (due to a total lack of support on his part), and DH hasn’t seen any of them since we were married.  It was and is very much the same thing with his family relationships.  Without me–or someone else to fulfill my role–DH will be unable to have any real degree of visitation.  He works in retail management, and weekends off are few and far between, as are holiday weekends.  Any visitation he has will more than likely be spent in near silence, in front of the television, and they will slip further and further apart.  Biomom will, in turn, use this to keep stepson at home more and more, until DH becomes the typical biological father who shows up at graduation, weddings and the occasional birthday/holiday. Now, none of this is my business and I don’t lose any sleep over it.  I can’t be there to hold everybody upright.  What *is* my business is that I took on a certain role when I married DH–a role that was a lot more involved than most NC stepparents.  I take that role and the current reprecussions from it very seriously.  Stepson looks to me for nearly everything when he’s with us; my removing myself from his life and leaving him to whatever fate is waiting for him is not going to happen, unless I’m forced too.  *I* built this relationship, with all of my heart and my good intentions.  I haven’t committed to a hell of a lot in my life, but I’m committed to this.  I cannot simply walk away because it’s suddenly too difficult, or I want to see what biomom or DH will do when I’m gone.  After nearly eight years of studying both of them, I *know* what they’ll do when I’m gone.  The only thing worse than what stepson is going through now, and what more than likely continues to wait for him in his future, is for him to have to go through it without *any* outside support and wondering where in hell I went???  If biomom or DH want to instigate that and live with the fallout, that’s their choice.  But I’m not going to. FWIW, though, I don’t "parent" in the same way I used to.  I force DH to plan their day, plan their meals, and cover all expenses incurred.  I offer my opinion as a concerned friend of both DH and stepson (often rather passionately), but I don’t beat a dead horse.  I do only as much disciplining as is normal for an adult figure living in this house.  If stepson gets too noisy, I ask him to settle down.  If he’s touching something that I don’t wish touched, I let him know.  If he’s making too big a mess, I ask him to begin cleaning up.  But any of the heavy duty parenting is done by DH or isn’t done at all.  I have happily relinquished myself of most of that role, and enjoy being "just a friend". lil — "It’s hard when you discover what keeps you going keeps you all alone."  – Blue Rodeo

Response:

"C&HWood" <line…@in.epix.net

wrote in message

news:3a5253f4.30495413@news.epix.net…

A while ago on the list, someone talked about a "Circle of Control" where they literally drew a circle, and put everything they can control inside the circle, and everything they can’t outside.  Do you remember that – I’m a little fuzzy on the details.

<grin

I’m a dismal failure at "Circle of Control."  I’m of the opinion that *everything’s* in my control.  I’m not good with the idea that I can’t do anything that I put enough effort into.  :-) For instance:

Decide appropriate medication

I have stepson’s medical insurance number.  I still have identification that says that I am Mrs. DH…not that the doctor has ever asked for it.  I can take stepson to the doctor he sees here and say, "This is what he’s being given.  This is his history."  I could even bring in half a dozen witnesses, which is something biomom can’t.  And at the very *least*, I can get the medication changed.  I can get a letter from the doctor to biomom.  If I did that, DH would take it to biomom and say, "This is the new situation, based on the truth about <stepson

’s condition.  This time *you* don’t fight

*me*." DH will do it…if I do the legwork, as always.

BD’s attitude & activity with son & ex

I can badger the hell out of DH until he does something to deal with the ex. It’s worked before.  As for his activity with his son, that’s *always* been in my control.  DH won’t even plan lunch for the two of them without my input and/or approval.

Whether you work with SS in school

This one I’ve let go of anyway.  I told DH that I would help stepson if I had his and biomom’s total support and assistance.  I haven’t got it.  I won’t help.  I’m done with the annual blood, sweat and tears, trying to teach him the things that he should have learned in school, only to have him forget them again after he goes home.

If not, at least know that there’s a perfect stranger who’s sending you good vibes and wishing you well with your difficulties.

<smile

Thanks, Holly! lil — "It’s hard when you discover what keeps you going keeps you all alone."  – Blue Rodeo

Response:

Hi Lil, I normally just lurk here (for years, posting once in a while) but I wanted to reply to your situation here: "lilblakdog" <lbdcreati…@dog.com

wrote: "Melissa " <laa…@aol.comspamfree wrote in message news:20010102121023.00467.00000871@ng-fj1.aol.com… Yes Lil, you are stressing yourself to the breaking point over a situation you can do nothing about.  You and DH are divorced, he won’t step up to the plate, BM will take advantage of it.  It’s going to happen.  There is nothing you can do. I know.  But the only way to do it would be to actually pack up and leave, cutting them off completely.

I know you’re stressed, and it might seem like it has to be all or nothing, but it’s not. A while ago on the list, someone talked about a "Circle of Control" where they literally drew a circle, and put everything they can control inside the circle, and everything they can’t outside.  Do you remember that – I’m a little fuzzy on the details. It seems to me there is a lot that you can do (and are doing) for this little boy you love so much, but because of your situation, there’s a lot you can’t do, too.  And you’re stressing a lot over the stuff that you can’t actually change. For instance, regarding the paxil and other recent issues, you could put things like Decide appropriate medication BD’s attitude & activity with son & ex Whether you work with SS in school         all outside your circle of control.  Because they aren’t something you can control, no matter how much you want to, and stressing about them is *only* going to stress you, not change anything.   But you can put all kinds of things *inside* your circle, because you can do them.  Things like talking to SS when you see him, researching about whatever condition he is supposedly being medcated for, helping him learn techniques for dealing with it (if he has it – doubtful, I know) or ways to deal with his wacko mother (not that you’d ever call her that in front of him , help him with school & learning when you do see him, work on bettering and continuing *your* relationship with SS so he knows you care, and so forth.  And those are all good, worthwhile things, and thinking about the positive things you can do has *got* to be better than thinking about the stuff you want to change, but can’t. I don’t know if this making sense, I have my own set of "things outside my circle of control" and one of them is having my brain work somedays.  I hope you understand I offer this advice with the best of intentions and hopes that it can help you at least a little.  If not, at least know that there’s a perfect stranger who’s sending you good vibes and wishing you well with your difficulties. Holly

Response:

But what do I do?  Walk away?

Yes Lil, you are stressing yourself to the breaking point over a situation you can do nothing about.  You and DH are divorced, he won’t step up to the plate, BM will take advantage of it.  It’s going to happen.  There is nothing you can do. Maybe you should take an SS vacation fo awhile.  Don’t discuss it with DH, don’t even think about it.  Take some time to regroup. Love, Melissa "I’m a born again Q".

Response:

"lilblakdog" <lbdcreati…@dog.com

wrote in message

news:To846.8824$EX5.85869@newscontent-01.sprint.ca…

But what do I do?  Walk away?  It would help me, but what will it do to stepson?  How can I punish him for something his mother is doing?

Oh, {{{{{{HUGS}}}}}, Lil!      I understand how you feel.  It’s like being 500 feet away from an accident that is occurring and you can see it all unfolding in slow motion before your eyes.  You think that if the drivers’ of each car could just hear your instructions they could minimize the damage.  You realize they can’t hear you so you wonder about how you could run in and ’save’ the situation.  But you can’t.  It’s happening anyway and has already been happening.  Remember, though, that *YOU* did NOT cause the accident.  *THEY* did.  You can only do so much and then it’s out of your hands.  You’re still going to see the accident happening and you’re only human to feel ill and uneasy with being a witness to it all.      But, like a ‘real’ accident, emergency personnel must assess the situation and see how ’safe’ it is.  If it is unsafe for *them* they MUST make it so or they will die in the process of ‘rescue’.  Failing to ’save’ anyone else and throwing their own life away at the same time.      You need to make the situation ’safe’ for *you* first.  There is a strong impulse in you to help, but you need to come at it with making sure *you* are in a safe place first.  Otherwise, you just become another piece in the ‘accident’.      OK, I’m sorry if that advice seems as clear as mud.  I just hate seeing you internalize something that is NOT your fault and not something that you can ‘fix’.  You can only work with *you* in the equation because that is the only thing you truly have absolute control over.      I’m also feeling bad that the New Year has started off on such a bad note for you. Tea

Response:

"Melissa " <laa…@aol.comspamfree

wrote in message

news:20010102121023.00467.00000871@ng-fj1.aol.com…

Yes Lil, you are stressing yourself to the breaking point over a situation

you

can do nothing about.  You and DH are divorced, he won’t step up to the

plate,

BM will take advantage of it.  It’s going to happen.  There is nothing you

can

do.

I know.  But the only way to do it would be to actually pack up and leave, cutting them off completely.  And that idea is *soooo* tempting right now, to be totally honest with you.  I can’t think about this stuff, because it’s killing me.  The idea of feeding *my* child unnecessary drugs makes me sick. But that’s the problem.  For nearly eight years now, he’s been *my* child–with everybody’s blessing.  I was ravingly unsuccessful at bearing any of my own and that’s made him more than just my step-child.  I know that some day DH or biomom could decide that enough’s enough and I don’t get to see him anymore and I’m prepared for that day.  But it’s totally different to just get up and walk away from it voluntarily. When I think of doing it, it’s easier to imagine that I’d be able to amputate my own limb.  And that’s *really* a dangerous thing…I don’t need anybody to tell me that.  But this seems to be the hazaard of marrying someone with a child that you love–you can’t make yourself stop loving the child, just because you’re no longer married to the parent. lil — "It’s hard when you discover what keeps you going keeps you all alone."  – Blue Rodeo

Response:

It’s too bad we can’t force medicate your BM.

She hands DH the medication with a smug look on her face and practically *dares* him to challenge her.

"This time: gonna do it RIGHT!" — Bob Seger Jennaii

Response:

Question:

i did literature search using Medline this afternoon, in between the patients ! But i did not find any article on "flovent and acne" or "flovent and rash" or "flovent and skin" good luck with aerobid. yatin j patel md http://md4lungs.com – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – –WebTV-Mail-24826-3781 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Thanks for your response. My doctor put me on Aerobid about two weeks ago. So far I seem to be doing alright on it. Then again, I have been on an antibiotic, as well as O2. I finish it tonight. We shall see. However, I still have the red bumps. Perhaps they will clear up with time. I must tell you that I have COPD. Scaring on my left lung since childhood,bronchitis, and asthma. I became sick four years ago. Had to be hospitalized for a week, and was sent home with the O2. I was on it for about two months. Had to go back on two weeks ago. I checked out your website. I will be visiting often. We all use the same treatments and medications. –WebTV-Mail-24826-3781 Content-Description: signature Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Text/HTML; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit <html<clock</clock</html –WebTV-Mail-24826-3781–

– Yatin J Patel MD http://md4lungs.com If you have asthma, this is your home. Join Dr. Patel every wednesday 7 PM Indiana Time for online chats. Before you buy.

Response:

Thanks for your response. My doctor put me on Aerobid about two weeks ago. So far I seem to be doing alright on it. Then again, I have been on an antibiotic, as well as O2. I finish it tonight. We shall see. However, I  still have the red bumps. Perhaps they will clear up with time. I must tell you that I have COPD. Scaring on my left lung since childhood,bronchitis, and asthma. I became sick four years ago. Had to be hospitalized for a week, and was sent home with the O2. I was on it for about two months. Had to go back on two weeks ago. I checked out your website. I will be visiting often. We all use the same treatments and medications.

Response:

have you tried other steroid inhalers like aerobid or pulmicort? yatin j patel md – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – –WebTV-Mail-14553-2611 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit I do use a spacer. I do not have red bumps around my mouth, I have acne on my face, (not around my mouth) and red bumps on my arms and legs. When I am on this medication for very long periods my neck also turns red. When it first happened my pulmonary doctor sent me to a dermatologist, he said it was from sun and weather. When I went off it I cleared up. I know this is going to sound crazy, but when I first go off Flovent I can breathe better. Unfortunately I have to go back on it. I would like to know if any one using inhaled steroids has been diagnosed with hypohyroidism. I was diagnosed with it about six months after starting Flovent. It may or may not be a factor, but I can’t see inhaling anything can be good for my thyroid. My doc says no. After all they know best. If I sound fed up, it’s because I am. They just don’t listen. I’m scared. Any ideas? Thanks….. –WebTV-Mail-14553-2611 Content-Description: signature Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Text/HTML; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit <html<clock</clock</html –WebTV-Mail-14553-2611–

– Yatin J Patel MD http://md4lungs.com If you have asthma, this is your home. Join Dr. Patel every wednesday 7 PM Indiana Time for online chats. Before you buy.

Response:

I’m also very, very fair-skinned. Blonde hair, lashes, brows. I have never had zits, but I did have "follicle infections" due to a hormone imbalance … but that was 25 years ago! My doctor at that time told me to wash my face, rubbing the sores til they bled, and then apply Polysporin ointment. Even with the ointment, it took a month or more for each sore to heal. Birth control pills helped the hormone problem and the sores (of course, if you’re male…. ignore this advice). This time it’s not hormones. I do use a spacer. I got desperate over the weekend and I used Victoria Principal’s blemish buster on each sore. They’re about 50% improved overnight. I’m also overweight, but I blame that on developing asthma 2 years ago and not being able to exercise as often as I want/need. I thought about seeing a dermatologist, but what’s the use of being on tetracycline when I’m still on Flovent? I’m on a 4-week tapering program. My allergist wants me off Servent BEFORE going off Flovent. So next week I stop the Serevent, and then 2 weeks later (if I survive), I try going off Flovent … no inhalers. But I’m on a double-dose of Claritin (2 a day). – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, I have been lurking for months, afraid to post. Your post on Flovent prompted me to take the plunge. I have had the same problem. Was on Flovent for three years. Have had acne, and small red raised bumps on my legs and arms. Every time I go off the Flovent I clear up. My pulmonary doctor changed me to another steroid, Aerobid. However, I am afraid it is not any better. I hate the steroids. I am 40lbs. over my normal weight. I don’t even recognize myself. I was also told it was non-related. I have very fair skin, this may have something to do with it. I feel some doctors are not educated on the side affects of some of these drugs. That’s why we have to educate ourselves. Just wanted you to know you are not alone.

Response:

Hello, I am so glad you posted.  This is a support newsgroup…please don’t be afraid to be involved.  I will admit it gets pretty intense at times, but most folks here are in the same boat.  We have asthma and we use this newsgroup as a method to exchange information and to share experiences, plus gain some support if we happen to be having a hard time with our illness or meds.  There is no one person here that has all the answers, but all are willing to try and help.  Glad to see you here! I also gained weight after starting meds….I don’t know why.  I have always been a thin kind of girl, but not now.  :o(  I work out whenever I have the breath and do pretty well most times.  To me it’s a real battle and hits in the old self esteem area pretty hard.  I just keep doing the best I can. Take care, Patrice

Hi, I have been lurking for months, afraid to post. Your post on Flovent prompted me to take the plunge. I have had the same problem. Was on Flovent for three years. Have had acne, and small red raised bumps on my legs and arms. Every time I go off the Flovent I clear up. My pulmonary doctor changed me to another steroid, Aerobid. However, I am afraid it is not any better. I hate the steroids. I am 40lbs. over my normal weight. I don’t even recognize myself. I was also told it was non-related. I have very fair skin, this may have something to do with it. I feel some doctors are not educated on the side affects of some of these drugs. That’s why we have to educate ourselves. Just wanted you to know you are not alone.

Response:

I do use a spacer. I do not have red bumps around my mouth, I have acne on my face, (not around my mouth) and red bumps on my arms and legs. When I am on this medication for very long periods my neck also turns red. When it first happened my pulmonary doctor sent me to a dermatologist, he said it was from sun and weather. When I went off it I cleared up. I know this is going to sound crazy, but when I first go off Flovent I can breathe better. Unfortunately I have to go back on it. I would like to know if any one using inhaled steroids has been diagnosed with hypohyroidism. I was diagnosed with it about six months after starting Flovent. It may or may not be a factor, but I can’t see inhaling anything can be good for my thyroid. My doc says no. After all they know best. If I sound fed up, it’s because I am. They just don’t listen. I’m scared. Any ideas? Thanks…..

Response:

Hi, I have been lurking for months, afraid to post. Your post on Flovent prompted me to take the plunge. I have had the same problem. Was on Flovent for three years. Have had acne, and small red raised bumps on my legs and arms. Every time I go off the Flovent I clear up. My pulmonary doctor changed me to another steroid, Aerobid. However, I am afraid it is not any better. I hate the steroids. I am 40lbs. over my normal weight. I don’t even recognize myself. I was also told it was non-related. I have very fair skin, this may have something to do with it. I feel some doctors are not educated on the side affects of some of these drugs. That’s why we have to educate ourselves. Just wanted you to know you are not alone.

Response:

Using flovent inhaler without a spacer would increase the oral deposition of the medicine. This may predispose one to those bumps on the skin around the lips. In article Nope, not on prednisone, and I don’t have a history of acne. In fact, I’ve always been complimented on my porcelain skin. That’s why this is a horrific experience for me. are you on prednisone also? because i take flovent and serevent, and only get the redness and welts when i’m on the prednisone also…

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Do you have a history of acne? PErhaps you have developed it and it is totally unrelated to the asthma. Two doctors tell me that the dozens of pimples/sores on my face are not related to Flovent, yet the Flovent insert mentions follicle infections as a rare side effect. It cleared up when I was on antibiotics for a sinus infection but it came right back. I went off Flovent for 2 weeks and saw minor improvement, but my asthma doc said I could not be on Serevent without being on Flovent, so I had to go back on Flovent. He wants me to wean off both eventually, if possible. In the meantime, I’m using an antibiotic ointment called MetroGel on my face, but it only controls the severity of the welts; it doesn’t make it go away. Anybody have a similar experience? Any hope?

– Yatin J Patel MD http://md4lungs.com If you have asthma, this is your home. Join Dr. Patel every wednesday 7 PM Indiana Time for online chats. Before you buy.

Response:

are you on prednisone also? because i take flovent and serevent, and only get the redness and welts when i’m on the prednisone also…

Response:

Nope, not on prednisone, and I don’t have a history of acne. In fact, I’ve always been complimented on my porcelain skin. That’s why this is a horrific experience for me. are you on prednisone also? because i take flovent and serevent, and only get the redness and welts when i’m on the prednisone also… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Do you have a history of acne?  PErhaps you have developed it and it is totally unrelated to the asthma. Two doctors tell me that the dozens of pimples/sores on my face are not related to Flovent, yet the Flovent insert mentions follicle infections as a rare side effect. It cleared up when I was on antibiotics for a sinus infection but it came right back. I went off Flovent for 2 weeks and saw minor improvement, but my asthma doc said I could not be on Serevent without being on Flovent, so I had to go back on Flovent. He wants me to wean off both eventually, if possible. In the meantime, I’m using an antibiotic ointment called MetroGel on my face, but it only controls the severity of the welts; it doesn’t make it go away. Anybody have a similar experience? Any hope?

Response:

Do you have a history of acne?  PErhaps you have developed it and it is totally unrelated to the asthma. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Two doctors tell me that the dozens of pimples/sores on my face are not related to Flovent, yet the Flovent insert mentions follicle infections as a rare side effect. It cleared up when I was on antibiotics for a sinus infection but it came right back. I went off Flovent for 2 weeks and saw minor improvement, but my asthma doc said I could not be on Serevent without being on Flovent, so I had to go back on Flovent. He wants me to wean off both eventually, if possible. In the meantime, I’m using an antibiotic ointment called MetroGel on my face, but it only controls the severity of the welts; it doesn’t make it go away. Anybody have a similar experience? Any hope?

Response:

Two doctors tell me that the dozens of pimples/sores on my face are not related to Flovent, yet the Flovent insert mentions follicle infections as a rare side effect. It cleared up when I was on antibiotics for a sinus infection but it came right back. I went off Flovent for 2 weeks and saw minor improvement, but my asthma doc said I could not be on Serevent without being on Flovent, so I had to go back on Flovent. He wants me to wean off both eventually, if possible. In the meantime, I’m using an antibiotic ointment called MetroGel on my face, but it only controls the severity of the welts; it doesn’t make it go away. Anybody have a similar experience? Any hope?

Response:

Question:

Just curious which specific portable nebulizer model you found to be the most portable and reliable?   Thanks! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Michelle.."Been there, done that, and have the T shirt to prove it.’  I am in the same boat…only I have been messing around since October with this.  I have had 4 colds that progressed me to big trouble…turning into bronchitis..pneumonia..and now the latest I have been diagnosed with "vocal cord dysfunction."  When I get a  attack my vocal cords spasm shut at times cutting off my total airway.   So needless to say these docs take no chances with me and I am on a boatload of meds and sky high prednisone.  So I can relate to being sick….You know I am on neb treatnents also every 4-6 hours and I have a portable nebulizer…it is great..it works on batteries or electricity.  If you checked into something like this you could do your treatment anywhere.  The neb kit does not look like a piece of medical equipment.  Before I got this I invested into a car cigarette  plug thing..to allow my portable nebulizer to run in my car.  At least I could do my treatments in the car then.  But now the battery neb has me spoiled and has allowed me to gain somemore independence from being sick.  I like you just want to get better.  Feel free to e mail me if you want to talk.

—Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.—

Response:

Just curious which specific portable nebulizer model you found to be the most portable and reliable?   Thanks!

I have the Omron.  Expensive, but about the size of an electric shaver and can run off ‘AA’ batteries. "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has limits." Einstein

Response:

Hi Michelle.."Been there, done that, and have the T shirt to prove it.’  I am in the same boat…only I have been messing around since October with this.  I have had 4 colds that progressed me to big trouble…turning into bronchitis..pneumonia..and now the latest I have been diagnosed with "vocal cord dysfunction."  When I get a  attack my vocal cords spasm shut at times cutting off my total airway.   So needless to say these docs take no chances with me and I am on a boatload of meds and sky high prednisone.  So I can relate to being sick….You know I am on neb treatnents also every 4-6 hours and I have a portable nebulizer…it is great..it works on batteries or electricity.  If you checked into something like this you could do your treatment anywhere.  The neb kit does not look like a piece of medical equipment.  Before I got this I invested into a car cigarette  plug thing..to allow my portable nebulizer to run in my car.  At least I could do my treatments in the car then.  But now the battery neb has me spoiled and has allowed me to gain somemore independence from being sick.  I like you just want

Response:

  My 6 year old went threw the same thing a little while ago. He had to take his nebs.  every 4 hours and a couple liquids.  Did you get a chest xray?It sounds like you have pnemonia.That is what my son had and you have to be put on a stronger antibiotic and it will take time and rest!!!!! Plenty of rest to get better!!!or you may get sicker as he did . You cant keep a six year old down. But hes better now.  Hope you feel better!!! and good luck with your Dr.

Response:

Michelle, I have the same problem… but only occurs when I am stressed… it usually doesn’t matter weather its mental or physical… it just occurs.  By doing my best to ‘calm-down’ usually helps the most… Good luck, Neal – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello.  I have been on a number of medicines for almost three years (Flovent 110, Serevent, MaxAir, Albuterol with nebulizer, Rinocort, Allegra-D, and Zyrtec).  I have been feeling okay until about a month ago when I developed a terrible cough.  My peak flows have been low (down to 270 in the mornings with 460 being my best).  Last month the doc told me I had a respiratory infection and put me on an antibiotic.  It is now almost May and I am still coughing.  My lungs feel very congested but I can’t cough anything up.  Now the doctor is telling me to increase my nebulizer treatment to 5-6 times a day.  I am 22 and trying to go to college.  I really don’t have time to come home and take these treatments every 4 hours and I don’t feel comfortable taking it in public.  Anyway, I am getting frustrated with all of this medicine and not feeling any better.  Just wanted to know if anyone else has had a similar experience.

Response:

Hi, I am trying to go to college right now and am having a major flare-up. Steroids, antibiotics, Proventil…You know the drill.  I was really frusterated.  My grades plummeted.  I was an A student and now I am barely getting Cs.  However, things are looking up.  I washed down my room with some help from other people.  I got a steam cleaner and cleaned the carpets.  Then rinsed them with clear water in the steamer.  I wiped down the walls with plain water.  I got a dust-mite cover for my mattress, and dust-mite resistant pillows and a hyperallergenic, dust-mite resistant comforter.  It took a lot of breath to do all this, and I realize that the last thing that you want to do is move anymore than you haveto.  I could not figure out what was triggering my asthma, and frankly still haven’t, but really cleaning my room where I sleep made a big difference.  I also got a HEPA air filter.  I was willing to try anything to feel better.  I do feel better, not perfect, but definitely better.  I actually did a lot better on my last computer project!!!!  Good luck in school and don’t give up!!!! Lisa R.

Response:

Hello.  I have been on a number of medicines for almost three years (Flovent 110, Serevent, MaxAir, Albuterol with nebulizer, Rinocort, Allegra-D, and Zyrtec).  I have been feeling okay until about a month ago when I developed a terrible cough.  My peak flows have been low (down to 270 in the mornings with 460 being my best).  Last month the doc told me I had a respiratory infection and put me on an antibiotic.  It is now almost May and I am still coughing.  My lungs feel very congested but I can’t cough anything up.  Now the doctor is telling me to increase my nebulizer treatment to 5-6 times a day.  I am 22 and trying to go to college.  I really don’t have time to come home and take these treatments every 4 hours and I don’t feel comfortable taking it in public.  Anyway, I am getting frustrated with all of this medicine and not feeling any better.  Just wanted to know if anyone else has had a similar experience.

Perhaps you need to find out if all of those medicines are really necessary. Talk to your Dr or get another opinion if necessary. I found out the hard way that medicines don’t always work in the same way for everyone. As the consutlant said to me, "One man’s poison is another man’s …". Jo

Response:

Hello.  I have been on a number of medicines for almost three years (Flovent 110, Serevent, MaxAir, Albuterol with nebulizer, Rinocort, Allegra-D, and Zyrtec).  I have been feeling okay until about a month ago when I developed a terrible cough.  My peak flows have been low (down to 270 in the mornings with 460 being my best).  Last month the doc told me I had a respiratory infection and put me on an antibiotic.  It is now almost May and I am still coughing.  My lungs feel very congested but I can’t cough anything up.  Now the doctor is telling me to increase my nebulizer treatment to 5-6 times a day.  I am 22 and trying to go to college.  I really don’t have time to come home and take these treatments every 4 hours and I don’t feel comfortable taking it in public.  Anyway, I am getting frustrated with all of this medicine and not feeling any better.  Just wanted to know if anyone else has had a similar experience.

Some quick comments; *Be sure to drink a lot of water, 6-8 glasses or so a day, to help liquify the mucus in your lungs so you can cough it up. Guafensin may help, available OTC. Some cough medicine has it. *Antihistamines tend to dry up secrections, may make it harder to cough up; same thing for pseudoephedrine the decongestant in Allegra-D. You’re not taking both Zyrtec and Allegra-D are you? I would question the use of antihistamines at this time.  The alternative treatment for nasal problems is nasal sprays; like Nasalcrom (OTC), or steroid nasal sprays like Rhinocort, Flonase. *5-6 nebulizer treatments a day sounds excessive. Each typical 2.5 mg treatment is equivalent to 10 puffs of albuterol by MDI inhaler, like Ventolin; so you are getting up to 50-60 pf/day of albuterol. WOW. Most asthmatics get all the albuterol they need from a Ventolin MDI, even for exacerbations, according to the Expert Panel Report 2. Albuterol probably won’t help treat the lung congestion, it’s a bronchodilator. How much Flovent 110 are you using. You may need to go the stronger version, Flovent 220 (or increase the Flovent 110) Steroid inhalers like Flovent or Pulmicort are what treat the inflammation and help control mucus. Postural drainage can be used to aid in coughing up phlegm; head has to be lower than rest of body. I had these same symptoms one time from acute bronchitis, a viral infection (antibiotics don’t help if viral, according to doctor). I recommend a 2nd opinion from another doctor, preferably a specialist; like a pulmonologist, allergist, or ENT. Ellis

Response:

Hello.  I have been on a number of medicines for almost three years (Flovent 110, Serevent, MaxAir, Albuterol with nebulizer, Rinocort, Allegra-D, and Zyrtec).  I have been feeling okay until about a month ago when I developed a terrible cough.  My peak flows have been low (down to 270 in the mornings with 460 being my best).  Last month the doc told me I had a respiratory infection and put me on an antibiotic.  It is now almost May and I am still coughing.  My lungs feel very congested but I can’t cough anything up.  Now the doctor is telling me to increase my nebulizer treatment to 5-6 times a day.  I am 22 and trying to go to college.  I really don’t have time to come home and take these treatments every 4 hours and I don’t feel comfortable taking it in public.  Anyway, I am getting frustrated with all of this medicine and not feeling any better.  Just wanted to know if anyone else has had a similar experience.

Response:

Question:

Maybe your son should try inhalers with a spacer if he is old enough.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello everyone, This is my first post to this newsgroup — thanks for the warm welcome! My son has asthma and requires 2-3 nebulizer treatments a day.   We’d like to find an easier alternative than lugging around his bulky nebulizer machine and trying to locate AC power when traveling.   Has anyone here tried the Medisana Ultrasonic Nebulizer (http://www.shoplifestyleonline.com/md811.html)?   Are you happy with it? I can’t seem to find any details on the portable nebulizer.  It says that we’ll get about 3 treatments from a single charge — I’m assuming his has an AC cord for recharging? Thanks! – Kendall F. Stratton III Fort Fairfield, Maine USA http://home.maine.rr.com/k3 "The Mind, once stretched by an empowering idea, can never fully shrink back to it’s original dimensions." –

Response:

Acknowledged, I may have made an unwise generalization here.  For a child unable to use an MDI/spacer/DPI properly a nebulizer _may_ be necessary. "Generally" people using nebs a lot are using them with bronchodilators; if so this is more appropriately addressed some other way. Cromolyn is a safe alternative and if effective is a good way to go. It also needs multiple daily treatments to be effective; hence your treatment program with the neb. If that program is working for you without serious problems or relapses than on the surface it appears sound. I know people can get kind of touchy on these sites. I don’t contribute often since there is a fair amount of good advice here. My primary point was actually the battery issue and maybe I should have stuck to that. Whenever you give a snippet of advice on an incomplete subject there is the risk of missing some significant information. A full asthma instruction set takes 6+ hours for a patient and myself. Even then I expect most people only get 20-30% of the information, but that’s usually 29% more than they had before and doesn’t include correcting misconceptions. Fritz Merkel – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As a therapeutic aside, if he normally _needs_ 2-3 neb treatments/day he is not being appropriately controlled. This should be looked at first. I suggest you spend some time in this group or look over some of the sites explaining appropriate asthma control. Fritz Merkel Respiratory Care Practitioner Asthma and Allergy Foundation of America-Wa Branch http://www.aafawa.org/ Well, wait a minute, my son is also on 3 treatments per day.  He takes cromolyn sodium.  He experienced a side effect with Pulmicort (sleep deprivation) within 3 days of beginning the once-a-day treatment.  So his pediatrician took him off of Pulmicort and started him on the cromolyn. The only side effect is the occasional post-nasal drip.  Both of these were nebulized, as he’s only 2 years old.  I actually prefer the cromolyn, be- cause the Pulmicort’s growth-stunting side effect scares me. If there is a non-steriod once-a-day treatment that’s nebulizable, please tell me.  Otherwise, I have to wait until he’s able to use an inhaler, correct? LR This is my first post to this newsgroup — thanks for the warm welcome! My son has asthma and requires 2-3 nebulizer treatments a day.   We’d like to find an easier alternative than lugging around his bulky nebulizer machine and trying to locate AC power when traveling.   Has anyone here tried the Medisana Ultrasonic Nebulizer (http://www.shoplifestyleonline.com/md811.html)?   Are you happy with it? I can’t seem to find any details on the portable nebulizer.  It says that we’ll get about 3 treatments from a single charge — I’m assuming his has an AC cord for recharging? Thanks! – Kendall F. Stratton III Fort Fairfield, Maine USA http://home.maine.rr.com/k3 "The Mind, once stretched by an empowering idea, can never fully shrink back to it’s original dimensions." –

Response:

I was previously using my albuterol MDI "rescue" inhaler every 4 hours. I now use it about 2 times a week, almost invariably in anticipation of activity. Boyd "The cure for boredom is curiosity. There is no cure for curiosity." (Ellen Parr- author)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sigh, that’s what I get for speaking in generalities… My medical team (MD and PharmD/PhD Physiologist) have come up with a plan which calls for me to use a nebulizer 2X daily with atrovent and albuterol. So you are using atrovent AND albuterol so you don’t have to use your albuterol as much?? Run that by me again. This has been very effective, improving my breathing and reducing my albuterol from every 4 hours to a couple of times a week. Are they incompetent, or don’t you know what you’re talking about? I’m pleased that your breathing is better and you don’t have to use your albuterol as much. Probably to you I don’t know what I’m talking about. Boyd Fritz Merkel Respiratory Care Practitioner Asthma and Allergy Foundation of America-Wa Branch http://www.aafawa.org/

Response:

Fritz, thank you for the comments. LR – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Acknowledged, I may have made an unwise generalization here.  For a child unable to use an MDI/spacer/DPI properly a nebulizer _may_ be necessary. "Generally" people using nebs a lot are using them with bronchodilators; if so this is more appropriately addressed some other way. Cromolyn is a safe alternative and if effective is a good way to go. It also needs multiple daily treatments to be effective; hence your treatment program with the neb. If that program is working for you without serious problems or relapses than on the surface it appears sound. I know people can get kind of touchy on these sites. I don’t contribute often since there is a fair amount of good advice here. My primary point was actually the battery issue and maybe I should have stuck to that. Whenever you give a snippet of advice on an incomplete subject there is the risk of missing some significant information. A full asthma instruction set takes 6+ hours for a patient and myself. Even then I expect most people only get 20-30% of the information, but that’s usually 29% more than they had before and doesn’t include correcting misconceptions. Fritz Merkel As a therapeutic aside, if he normally _needs_ 2-3 neb treatments/day he is not being appropriately controlled. This should be looked at first. I suggest you spend some time in this group or look over some of the sites explaining appropriate asthma control. Fritz Merkel Respiratory Care Practitioner Asthma and Allergy Foundation of America-Wa Branch http://www.aafawa.org/ Well, wait a minute, my son is also on 3 treatments per day.  He takes cromolyn sodium.  He experienced a side effect with Pulmicort (sleep deprivation) within 3 days of beginning the once-a-day treatment.  So his pediatrician took him off of Pulmicort and started him on the cromolyn. The only side effect is the occasional post-nasal drip.  Both of these were nebulized, as he’s only 2 years old.  I actually prefer the cromolyn, be- cause the Pulmicort’s growth-stunting side effect scares me. If there is a non-steriod once-a-day treatment that’s nebulizable, please tell me.  Otherwise, I have to wait until he’s able to use an inhaler, correct? LR This is my first post to this newsgroup — thanks for the warm welcome! My son has asthma and requires 2-3 nebulizer treatments a day.   We’d like to find an easier alternative than lugging around his bulky nebulizer machine and trying to locate AC power when traveling.   Has anyone here tried the Medisana Ultrasonic Nebulizer (http://www.shoplifestyleonline.com/md811.html)?   Are you happy with it? I can’t seem to find any details on the portable nebulizer.  It says that we’ll get about 3 treatments from a single charge — I’m assuming his has an AC cord for recharging? Thanks! – Kendall F. Stratton III Fort Fairfield, Maine USA http://home.maine.rr.com/k3 "The Mind, once stretched by an empowering idea, can never fully shrink back to it’s original dimensions." –

Response:

My medical team (MD and PharmD/PhD Physiologist) have come up with a plan which calls for me to use a nebulizer 2X daily with atrovent and albuterol. This has been very effective, improving my breathing and reducing my albuterol from every 4 hours to a couple of times a week. Are they incompetent, or don’t you know what you’re talking about? Boyd — "The cure for boredom is curiosity. There is no cure for curiosity." (Ellen Parr- author)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I looked at the site; at $170 it is a pretty low price for a portable USN. A concern would be the rechargeable battery. They tend to be proprietary (not owner replaceable) and very expensive for most of the portables. Compressor driven models usually don’t perform as well as A/C models so they don’t get used while at home and the battery goes bad from neglect. I have no experience with this particular model though. You might take a look at the OMRON, more expensive, some find it fragile (I expect the Medisana is also), but it can use normal AA batteries or rechargeable AA’s for a fraction of the cost. As a therapeutic aside, if he normally _needs_ 2-3 neb treatments/day he is not being appropriately controlled. This should be looked at first. I suggest you spend some time in this group or look over some of the sites explaining appropriate asthma control. Fritz Merkel Respiratory Care Practitioner Asthma and Allergy Foundation of America-Wa Branch http://www.aafawa.org/ This is my first post to this newsgroup — thanks for the warm welcome! My son has asthma and requires 2-3 nebulizer treatments a day.   We’d like to find an easier alternative than lugging around his bulky nebulizer machine and trying to locate AC power when traveling.   Has anyone here tried the Medisana Ultrasonic Nebulizer (http://www.shoplifestyleonline.com/md811.html)?   Are you happy with it? I can’t seem to find any details on the portable nebulizer.  It says that we’ll get about 3 treatments from a single charge — I’m assuming his has an AC cord for recharging? Thanks! – Kendall F. Stratton III Fort Fairfield, Maine USA http://home.maine.rr.com/k3 "The Mind, once stretched by an empowering idea, can never fully shrink back to it’s original dimensions." –

Response:

As ever, Boyd, straight for the jugular, more strength to your elbow, sometimes you know, I reckon these medics should talk to the people with the problems and then make practical suggestions, the two consultants whose care I am in for COPD and Ulcerative Colitis always kick off with, well William hows it been for you is A working or B if not lets sort it. Kind Regards Bill

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My medical team (MD and PharmD/PhD Physiologist) have come up with a plan which calls for me to use a nebulizer 2X daily with atrovent and albuterol. This has been very effective, improving my breathing and reducing my albuterol from every 4 hours to a couple of times a week. Are they incompetent, or don’t you know what you’re talking about? Boyd — "The cure for boredom is curiosity. There is no cure for curiosity." (Ellen Parr- author) I looked at the site; at $170 it is a pretty low price for a portable USN. A concern would be the rechargeable battery. They tend to be proprietary (not owner replaceable) and very expensive for most of the portables. Compressor driven models usually don’t perform as well as A/C models so they don’t get used while at home and the battery goes bad from neglect. I have no experience with this particular model though. You might take a look at the OMRON, more expensive, some find it fragile (I expect the Medisana is also), but it can use normal AA batteries or rechargeable AA’s for a fraction of the cost. As a therapeutic aside, if he normally _needs_ 2-3 neb treatments/day he is not being appropriately controlled. This should be looked at first. I suggest you spend some time in this group or look over some of the sites explaining appropriate asthma control. Fritz Merkel Respiratory Care Practitioner Asthma and Allergy Foundation of America-Wa Branch http://www.aafawa.org/ This is my first post to this newsgroup — thanks for the warm welcome! My son has asthma and requires 2-3 nebulizer treatments a day.   We’d like to find an easier alternative than lugging around his bulky nebulizer machine and trying to locate AC power when traveling.   Has anyone here tried the Medisana Ultrasonic Nebulizer (http://www.shoplifestyleonline.com/md811.html)?   Are you happy with it? I can’t seem to find any details on the portable nebulizer.  It says that we’ll get about 3 treatments from a single charge — I’m assuming his has an AC cord for recharging? Thanks! – Kendall F. Stratton III Fort Fairfield, Maine USA http://home.maine.rr.com/k3 "The Mind, once stretched by an empowering idea, can never fully shrink back to it’s original dimensions." –

Response:

Sigh, that’s what I get for speaking in generalities… My medical team (MD and PharmD/PhD Physiologist) have come up with a plan which calls for me to use a nebulizer 2X daily with atrovent and

albuterol. So you are using atrovent AND albuterol so you don’t have to use your albuterol as much?? Run that by me again. This has been very effective, improving my breathing and reducing my albuterol from every 4 hours to a couple of times a week. Are they incompetent, or don’t you know what you’re talking about?

I’m pleased that your breathing is better and you don’t have to use your albuterol as much. Probably to you I don’t know what I’m talking about. Boyd

Fritz Merkel Respiratory Care Practitioner Asthma and Allergy Foundation of America-Wa Branch http://www.aafawa.org/

Response:

As a therapeutic aside, if he normally _needs_ 2-3 neb treatments/day he is not being appropriately controlled. This should be looked at first. I suggest you spend some time in this group or look over some of the sites explaining appropriate asthma control. Fritz Merkel Respiratory Care Practitioner Asthma and Allergy Foundation of America-Wa Branch http://www.aafawa.org/

Well, wait a minute, my son is also on 3 treatments per day.  He takes cromolyn sodium.  He experienced a side effect with Pulmicort (sleep deprivation) within 3 days of beginning the once-a-day treatment.  So his pediatrician took him off of Pulmicort and started him on the cromolyn. The only side effect is the occasional post-nasal drip.  Both of these were nebulized, as he’s only 2 years old.  I actually prefer the cromolyn, be- cause the Pulmicort’s growth-stunting side effect scares me. If there is a non-steriod once-a-day treatment that’s nebulizable, please tell me.  Otherwise, I have to wait until he’s able to use an inhaler, correct? LR – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This is my first post to this newsgroup — thanks for the warm welcome! My son has asthma and requires 2-3 nebulizer treatments a day.   We’d like to find an easier alternative than lugging around his bulky nebulizer machine and trying to locate AC power when traveling.   Has anyone here tried the Medisana Ultrasonic Nebulizer (http://www.shoplifestyleonline.com/md811.html)?   Are you happy with it? I can’t seem to find any details on the portable nebulizer.  It says that we’ll get about 3 treatments from a single charge — I’m assuming his has an AC cord for recharging? Thanks! – Kendall F. Stratton III Fort Fairfield, Maine USA http://home.maine.rr.com/k3 "The Mind, once stretched by an empowering idea, can never fully shrink back to it’s original dimensions." –

Response:

Hello everyone, This is my first post to this newsgroup — thanks for the warm welcome! My son has asthma and requires 2-3 nebulizer treatments a day.   We’d like to find an easier alternative than lugging around his bulky nebulizer machine and trying to locate AC power when traveling.   Has anyone here tried the Medisana Ultrasonic Nebulizer (http://www.shoplifestyleonline.com/md811.html)?   Are you happy with it? I can’t seem to find any details on the portable nebulizer.  It says that we’ll get about 3 treatments from a single charge — I’m assuming his has an AC cord for recharging? Thanks! Kendall F. Stratton III Fort Fairfield, Maine USA http://home.maine.rr.com/k3 "The Mind, once stretched by an empowering idea, can never fully shrink back to it’s original dimensions."

Response:

We’d like to find an easier alternative than lugging around his bulky nebulizer machine and trying to locate AC power when traveling.  

Not knowing as to what method of traveling you are referring to, when I was at the VA clinic the other day I saw one using a nebulizer plugged into his lighter socket.

Response:

We’d like to find an easier alternative than lugging around his bulky nebulizer machine and trying to locate AC power when traveling. Not knowing as to what method of traveling you are referring to, when I was at the VA clinic the other day I saw one using a nebulizer plugged into his lighter socket.

When I mentioned "traveling" I meant driving far distances and staying in hotel/motel rooms.   We’d just like to be able to avoid stopping at rest areas, having to lug out the nebulizer, and searching for AC outlets at 10:00 at night when a nebulizer treatment is needed. Things would be so much easier if our son could just sit in the back seat and have his treatment.   I have considered buying one of the DC-to-AC converters that plugs into the power outlet on the vehicle, but a product like I mentioned would seem to be easier. Thanks for the reply! Kendall F. Stratton III Fort Fairfield, Maine USA http://home.maine.rr.com/k3 "The Mind, once stretched by an empowering idea, can never fully shrink back to it’s original dimensions."

Response:

I know exactaly what you mean. I have a pulmo-aid and it is bulky and heavy. My insurance would not help pay for a portable one and they are very expensive. Since I am a very severe asthmatic I do not leave home any length of time with out it. Sometimes I have to nebulize every 4hrs around the clock when I feel bad. I solved the problem by using a inverter to plug into the ciger lighter in the car which  I plug the nebulizer into. ( We did have to change the lighters fuse) This works very well and it will reach into the back seat without a problem. For the hotels I set my nebulizer up on the table with all the meds beside it.  ( I don’t have little kids to worry about getting into the bottles) The beds are usually close enough the nebulizer can reach the bed without a problem.  I know it is a hassle to awalys carry the thing around and it takes up alot of room in the car. But it does give me the freedom to go places I would not be able to without worrying about right electrial outlets and clean condictions to nebulize in.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello everyone, This is my first post to this newsgroup — thanks for the warm welcome! My son has asthma and requires 2-3 nebulizer treatments a day.   We’d like to find an easier alternative than lugging around his bulky nebulizer machine and trying to locate AC power when traveling.   Has anyone here tried the Medisana Ultrasonic Nebulizer (http://www.shoplifestyleonline.com/md811.html)?   Are you happy with it? I can’t seem to find any details on the portable nebulizer.  It says that we’ll get about 3 treatments from a single charge — I’m assuming his has an AC cord for recharging? Thanks! – Kendall F. Stratton III Fort Fairfield, Maine USA http://home.maine.rr.com/k3 "The Mind, once stretched by an empowering idea, can never fully shrink back to it’s original dimensions." –

Response:

I looked at the site; at $170 it is a pretty low price for a portable USN. A concern would be the rechargeable battery. They tend to be proprietary (not owner replaceable) and very expensive for most of the portables. Compressor driven models usually don’t perform as well as A/C models so they don’t get used while at home and the battery goes bad from neglect. I have no experience with this particular model though. You might take a look at the OMRON, more expensive, some find it fragile (I expect the Medisana is also), but it can use normal AA batteries or rechargeable AA’s for a fraction of the cost. As a therapeutic aside, if he normally _needs_ 2-3 neb treatments/day he is not being appropriately controlled. This should be looked at first. I suggest you spend some time in this group or look over some of the sites explaining appropriate asthma control. Fritz Merkel Respiratory Care Practitioner Asthma and Allergy Foundation of America-Wa Branch http://www.aafawa.org/ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This is my first post to this newsgroup — thanks for the warm welcome! My son has asthma and requires 2-3 nebulizer treatments a day.   We’d like to find an easier alternative than lugging around his bulky nebulizer machine and trying to locate AC power when traveling.   Has anyone here tried the Medisana Ultrasonic Nebulizer (http://www.shoplifestyleonline.com/md811.html)?   Are you happy with it? I can’t seem to find any details on the portable nebulizer.  It says that we’ll get about 3 treatments from a single charge — I’m assuming his has an AC cord for recharging? Thanks! – Kendall F. Stratton III Fort Fairfield, Maine USA http://home.maine.rr.com/k3 "The Mind, once stretched by an empowering idea, can never fully shrink back to it’s original dimensions." –

Response:

Question:

Excellent post Gordo thats why my GI told me not to take it on tx. I wouldn’t want to take anything that could give a false reading on my labs while on tx. No way!                                              Juanita

Response:

Thanks for passing that on, Gordo. Should I or shouldn’t I?  The answer is only one phone call away.  Call or no call? Naw, I don’t wanna know.   Elmo ////////////   I think I was the one who started this last year when I was on tx. Here’s the background: We use a family of enzymes called "Cytochrome P450" (or "CYP") to get rid of a lot of substances (such as many drugs) from our bodies. The amount of a drug (such as ribavirin) that you take and how often you take it is based on how fast your body gets rid of it. You need a certain amount in you for the drug to work, and the faster your body gets rid of it the more you have to take, and you have to take it more often. So if I’m taking a drug that is metabolized by a CYP, and I take another drug that changes how that CYP works (slows it down or speeds it up) then there’s the potential that I could end up with way too much of the first drug (because it’s not getting cleared as fast) or too little (because it’s getting cleared too fast.) Possible overdose, or the drug just won’t work. It gets kind of technical but if you like this stuff I thought this site was a good overview: http://www.anaesthetist.com/physiol/basics/metabol/cyp/cyp.htm#all Milk Thistle has repeatedly been shown to impair one of the CYP enzymes – CYP3A4 – and had a significant impact on the metabolism of several substances that are metabolized by that enzyme. This is exactly the same situation that has caused many toxic drug interactions. Where it gets confusing is that these studies are done using liver cells in cultures and there’s one study that looked for, and didn’t find, the same effects in people. So what’s this mean for people on treatment? From: http://www.drugs.com/PDR/Ribavirin__USP_Capsules.html "Results of in vitro studies using both human and rat liver microsome preparations indicated little or no cytochrome P450 enzyme-mediated metabolism of ribavirin, with minimal potential for P450 enzyme-based drug interactions." So there doesn’t seem to be a potential for interaction with Ribavirin. Same thing for pegasys: "Peginterferon-a -2a (40kD) showed no significant effects on drug metabolism mediated by CYP2C9, 2C19, 2D6 and 3A4 isoenzymes in healthy nonsmoking male volunteers." (from http://janis7hepc.com/differences_between_pegasys_and.htm) People on tx tend to take a lot of other drugs, though, and this site lists a lot of drugs that use the same enzyme that Milk Thistle, in the lab, has been shown to inhibit: http://www.catie.ca/supple-e.nsf/0/7b09aa55a412896c85256c6e0070bf60?O… ocument The effects of Milk Thistle are mostly based on "I took it and it made my liver better" reports, and by looking at its activity in cells in test tubes – the same type of test tubes that show it has a negative interaction with some other drugs (meaning of someone is going to use the argument that the test tube studies don’t apply to bodies, they have to admit that it applies to the supposed benefits as well.) One recent clinical study which attempted to show some benefit to using it found none at all: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/05/050504003425.htm So end result: there is no predicted interaction with interferon or ribavirin. There is a possible interaction with a lot of other drugs that people on tx take (and that I was taking). A recent study shows that it doesn’t seem to have the beneficial effect that people have been saying it has. I decided not to take it. Gordo In article <L9nwe.5387$Bn6.179@trndny08

, "john" <otk…@hotmail.com

wrote: To be honest, everyone in the group is saying it’s not good to take milk thistle while on interferon and the doc said its fine.With the vast knowledge from this group i have learned more in 2 days here then 9 monthes with the doctor.Thanks everyone…… "AguaGirl" <some…@somewhere.com

wrote in message

news:RYGdnWWn6JIr9FzfRVn-iA@adelphia.com… <elmoemer…@webtv.net

wrote in message

news:10915-42C08C99-698@storefull-3256.bay.webtv.net… ahahahahahahahahaha!!! If it was good for good ole AG, it must be good for you. Her response to you defies what many knowledgable experts on the matter have stated. Milk thistle has a history of interfering with the absorbtion of other drugs and it’s not known for sure if it has the same negative effect on combination drugs, but many of the hepc experts recommend not taking it while on tx. Why chance it? AG’s response isn’t so much about milk thistle as it is about disagreeing with me. LOL. As she said though, do your research and you’ll see there’s been much speculation about whether you should take milk thistle and do tx at the same time. Elmo Your wrong elmo. I honestly don’t give you much thought one way or the other….and I didn’t say it was good for everyone. I basically said there is disagreement in the medical community about milk thistles interaction with the tx. You are not a doctor nor am I. John has a doctor. What I told John was to run EVERYTHING he reads or hears past his doctor which is what I did. (which is why I continued to take it). Your first post sounded definitive. The case against milk thistle is speculative…which is exactly what I said and what you parroted in your reply. I didn’t even disagree with what you posted at first, merely said it wasn’t ‘fact’ as much as speculation. AG http://community.webtv.net/elmoemerson/DocElmosHepFile http://community.webtv.net/elmoemerson/TheFamilyAlbum

Response:

In article <10915-42C08C99-…@storefull-3256.bay.webtv.net

,

 elmoemer…@webtv.net wrote:

 Milk thistle has a history of interfering with the absorbtion of other drugs and it’s not known for sure if it has the same negative effect on combination drugs, but many of the hepc experts recommend not taking it while on tx.  Why chance it?

The active ingredient in Milk Thistle has the _potential_ to interfere with a liver enzyme which is used by the body to metabolize many different drugs. One study with one anti-HIV Protease Inhibitor showed that taking it with Milk Thistle somewhat reduced the amount that was absorbed from one dose but most importantly, when levels of the PI were measured at the "trough" point – right before the next scheduled dose – it was an average of 25% and as much as 60% lower than it should be.  That’s significant and bad and could lead to resistance. So even though some people take it with other meds with no apparent problems, there is evidence that the potential it has to interfere is very real. Seems to me that something of such unproven benefit – which at least one study has shown to have no benefit – that has the potential to cause problems isn’t something I’d want to take while taking other serious meds. From: http://www.catie.ca/supple-e.nsf/0/7b09aa55a412896c85256c6e0070bf60?O… ocument ————— Below is a short list of some other medications that are processed through the CYP3A4 enzyme. Based on the effect of milk thistle on liver enzymes in the lab, it is possible that levels of these medications may increase if taken by people who are also using milk thistle. This list is not exhaustive:    

Question:

Top post Rick I have my panic/anxiety under management ATM having used quite a few of the excellent suggestions you posted. I love the way you confronted the issues and constuctively offered opinion, ideas and options that are realistic and based on proven experience. I have extensive experience in dealing with anxiety and still found your post to provide better ways of taking control of anxiety situations. I found this particular part most interesting for me: It turned out to be better to take control of the situation by accepting my symptoms for what they were (simply my body’s physical reaction to being over stressed). Instead of trying to resist the feelings, I take control and using other coping skills (deep breathing, and especially positive self-talk such as ICHI) to minimize their affect until my symptoms have disappeared.

For situational panic I wish I could learn to apply this technique better. I am almost there but still find I use distraction as a way to manage. I am still too afraid to let a panic (derealisation in my case) to ride through me. BTW what is ICHI? Also, I am going to try and find your original post as I’m keen to have a look at your website as I work in web and eLearning design field. I am a novice trying to learn "Authorware" and it is very hard. P.S Like Meryl, I am from Melbourne Australia and if you wish to email me you just need to remove the "no spam" from my hotmail addy. take care, Vanessa [off to search for your first post}

- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text - Hi  Michelle, I hope you're feeling better and I am glad that you've found the ASAP newsgroup. You'll find that you are amongst people who know first hand what you are experiencing and I'm sure someone here at ASAP will be able to help you find the answer(s) you seek. Before I offer my advice, I want to first compliment you on your determination to overcome your anxiety "monsters". Rather than choosing the role of the victim of your situation, you have chosen to take control of your problem and find out how to beat it. Not letting your anxiety take control of you takes real courage (which is ironic considering how much we worry in our lives). So again my sincere, heartfelt congratulations! When I first started experiencing my anxiety disorder (over 10 years ago), I pretty much followed the self-help regime that you described in your post so let me start by saying that you have been making excellent choices. I'm sorry that they haven't given you the results you were hoping for. Maybe some of my experiences below will give you insights as to why these skills haven't been helping you, because I am at a loss to understand their ineffectiveness. The coping skills you've been practicing are the ones recommended by many anxiety experts. When my anxiety got out of control, I too started exercising regularly. I also went to a therapist and I practiced self-talk. I listened to relaxation tapes (rather than the meditation route). Like yourself, I even focused on doing something else when the panic attacks kicked in to try and keep my mind distracted to keep me from worrying about the symptoms I was feeling. Also like yourself, my doctor prescribed Paxil for me, but in my case the meds actually helped (despite some unwanted side effects). In response to your post, I would like to offer you (and anyone else reading this post) six suggestions as well as five additional coping skills that I use and find particularly useful. You may have tried some of them and not mentioned them in your post, but hopefully you'll find something worth trying. I prefer to write a lot (because I want to help as many people as I can in dealing with this problem), so feel free to skip the points that don't apply to you. Others may read this post and some of my advice, which isn't applicable to your situation, may help them. (By the way, if you would like to know my story, feel free to read my very first post to ASAP entitled "Hello ASAP from a Newbie" posted on March 20, 2004. You'll find my introduction to the group and hopefully recognize that the advice that follows comes from someone who really understands first hand what a drag anxiety disorder can be for us.) MY SIX SUGGESTIONS Suggestion #1: Seek Out a Local Support Group One thing you didn't list in your post was whether or not you have sought out an anxiety support group in your own city (as opposed to on the Web). If you haven't, I would suggest that you do so. You're sure to get good advice here in cyberspace, but there is something to be said for face-to-face communication and as humans, we need the company of other people - the glowing smiles, the voices of concern (and even the occasional encouraging hug). Joining a real world support group also gives you the opportunity to get out of the house (which can be an added benefit to those suffering from depression or feeling agoraphobic). Family and friends can certainly offer you support, but being amongst people who truly know what you're going through can be extremely beneficial, both emotional and educationally - I know it certainly was for me. If you agree, consider talking to your counsellor or doctor and see if they know of a local support group. Of course, please continue visiting ASAP because you'll find good advice and support here, too. And when you do find your solution, please be sure to share your story here since we do care. Besides, your post perhaps could inspire others. Suggestion #2: Keep Practicing Your Coping Skills, Even If You Feeling Fine You write in your post that you have always been able to identify your trigger. I'm glad to read this because that suggests to me that you are aware that dealing with anxiety disorder can be a lifetime challenge. I made the mistake of thinking that once I beat it the first time, I was "cured". I stopped exercising regularly, I went back to my bad habit of listening to my negative voice and I started drinking more coffee. So my second suggestion may not necessarily be for you but for anyone else who is reading this post. Once you have overcome your anxiety disorder, don't make the mistake that I made and think you've beaten it forever. If you don't learn how to manage your anxiety properly, the panic attacks will return. Suggestion #3: Avoidance Is Not an Effective Coping Skill As I wrote in my previous suggestion, not only was I not managing my anxiety, I was actually putting out the welcome mat for its return. I made the mistake of thinking that avoidance was a coping skill! (I was not being assertive  nor was I confronting the problems I had with co-workers.) By not resolving my difficulties at my workplace, I just added those concerns to my worry pile and eventually the pile grew so large, it collapsed on me. Suggestion #4: Avoid Self Medication - It's Only a Temporary Solution I was avoiding confronting the underlining causes of  my stress by self-medicating. Fortunately I didn't turn to drugs or alcohol (because my father was an alcoholic). My medicine of choice was TV and I used it to tune out life's stresses and block out my negative thinking. Suggestion #5: Watch What Your Telling Yourself I've done a lot of research on anxiety disorder over the years and one truism I've learned is this: What you tell yourself is what you believe. If you tell yourself that you can't overcome your anxiety, then you can't. (After all, why would you lie to yourself?) If you say that you can't ride a bus, won't get into an elevator, etc., you can't and you won't. And worst of all, by not facing your stress triggers, you're subconsciously validating these false assumptions. If it's true that you believe the negative things you tell yourself, it's equally true that you believe the positive things. For example, say you have a problem with elevators. If instead of saying you can't ride on elevators, you start saying that you can. Eventually you will be able to do so. Maybe not right away, but you can do it. You just need to believe it, really want it and with the right coping skills, particularly coping skill #1 visualization (see below) and self-talk, you can accomplish it. I mean, it's riding an elevator, it's not flying to the top of the building. People ride elevators everyday. Those that don't are, truth be known, unable to do so simply because they tell themselves they can't. With any challenge, first clearly define the goal you want to accomplish (e.g., riding in elevators) and then clearly see the reward you'll get from reaching your goal (so you'll do the work needed to overcome the challenge). Next, set the steps you'll need to accomplish your goal. One bit of advice: if you are someone who gets easily discouraged, work in small steps. Begin by listening to relaxation tapes to calm your mind.  It's also important to be exercising regularly so that you'll be physically ready to take on your "challenge". Next (continuing with the elevator example), begin visualizing getting on the elevator, see yourself feeling calm and peaceful. See the experience as a positive, unstressful moment (as it probably was earlier in your life). Repeat the visualization as often as you feel is necessary. Remind yourself the importance of your goal and then go to the elevator. Pick one that's empty. Take a friend along for support if necessary. Be sure that your friend clearly understands your problem and will be supportive. Also be sure that your friend wants you to get better because some friends don't (they may want you to remain helpless because then you'll need to rely on them). Fill your lungs with a deep breath to

... read more »

Response:

that's a really incredible post! One to save, for sure. -regards, z _

- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text - Hi  Michelle, I hope you're feeling better and I am glad that you've found the ASAP newsgroup. You'll find that you are amongst people who know first hand what you are experiencing and I'm sure someone here at ASAP will be able to help you find the answer(s) you seek. Before I offer my advice, I want to first compliment you on your determination to overcome your anxiety "monsters". Rather than choosing the role of the victim of your situation, you have chosen to take control of your problem and find out how to beat it. Not letting your anxiety take control of you takes real courage (which is ironic considering how much we worry in our lives). So again my sincere, heartfelt congratulations! When I first started experiencing my anxiety disorder (over 10 years ago), I pretty much followed the self-help regime that you described in your post so let me start by saying that you have been making excellent choices. I'm sorry that they haven't given you the results you were hoping for. Maybe some of my experiences below will give you insights as to why these skills haven't been helping you, because I am at a loss to understand their ineffectiveness. The coping skills you've been practicing are the ones recommended by many anxiety experts. When my anxiety got out of control, I too started exercising regularly. I also went to a therapist and I practiced self-talk. I listened to relaxation tapes (rather than the meditation route). Like yourself, I even focused on doing something else when the panic attacks kicked in to try and keep my mind distracted to keep me from worrying about the symptoms I was feeling. Also like yourself, my doctor prescribed Paxil for me, but in my case the meds actually helped (despite some unwanted side effects). In response to your post, I would like to offer you (and anyone else reading this post) six suggestions as well as five additional coping skills that I use and find particularly useful. You may have tried some of them and not mentioned them in your post, but hopefully you'll find something worth trying. I prefer to write a lot (because I want to help as many people as I can in dealing with this problem), so feel free to skip the points that don't apply to you. Others may read this post and some of my advice, which isn't applicable to your situation, may help them. (By the way, if you would like to know my story, feel free to read my very first post to ASAP entitled "Hello ASAP from a Newbie" posted on March 20, 2004. You'll find my introduction to the group and hopefully recognize that the advice that follows comes from someone who really understands first hand what a drag anxiety disorder can be for us.) MY SIX SUGGESTIONS Suggestion #1: Seek Out a Local Support Group One thing you didn't list in your post was whether or not you have sought out an anxiety support group in your own city (as opposed to on the Web). If you haven't, I would suggest that you do so. You're sure to get good advice here in cyberspace, but there is something to be said for face-to-face communication and as humans, we need the company of other people - the glowing smiles, the voices of concern (and even the occasional encouraging hug). Joining a real world support group also gives you the opportunity to get out of the house (which can be an added benefit to those suffering from depression or feeling agoraphobic). Family and friends can certainly offer you support, but being amongst people who truly know what you're going through can be extremely beneficial, both emotional and educationally - I know it certainly was for me. If you agree, consider talking to your counsellor or doctor and see if they know of a local support group. Of course, please continue visiting ASAP because you'll find good advice and support here, too. And when you do find your solution, please be sure to share your story here since we do care. Besides, your post perhaps could inspire others. Suggestion #2: Keep Practicing Your Coping Skills, Even If You Feeling Fine You write in your post that you have always been able to identify your trigger. I'm glad to read this because that suggests to me that you are aware that dealing with anxiety disorder can be a lifetime challenge. I made the mistake of thinking that once I beat it the first time, I was "cured". I stopped exercising regularly, I went back to my bad habit of listening to my negative voice and I started drinking more coffee. So my second suggestion may not necessarily be for you but for anyone else who is reading this post. Once you have overcome your anxiety disorder, don't make the mistake that I made and think you've beaten it forever. If you don't learn how to manage your anxiety properly, the panic attacks will return. Suggestion #3: Avoidance Is Not an Effective Coping Skill As I wrote in my previous suggestion, not only was I not managing my anxiety, I was actually putting out the welcome mat for its return. I made the mistake of thinking that avoidance was a coping skill! (I was not being assertive  nor was I confronting the problems I had with co-workers.) By not resolving my difficulties at my workplace, I just added those concerns to my worry pile and eventually the pile grew so large, it collapsed on me. Suggestion #4: Avoid Self Medication - It's Only a Temporary Solution I was avoiding confronting the underlining causes of  my stress by self-medicating. Fortunately I didn't turn to drugs or alcohol (because my father was an alcoholic). My medicine of choice was TV and I used it to tune out life's stresses and block out my negative thinking. Suggestion #5: Watch What Your Telling Yourself I've done a lot of research on anxiety disorder over the years and one truism I've learned is this: What you tell yourself is what you believe. If you tell yourself that you can't overcome your anxiety, then you can't. (After all, why would you lie to yourself?) If you say that you can't ride a bus, won't get into an elevator, etc., you can't and you won't. And worst of all, by not facing your stress triggers, you're subconsciously validating these false assumptions. If it's true that you believe the negative things you tell yourself, it's equally true that you believe the positive things. For example, say you have a problem with elevators. If instead of saying you can't ride on elevators, you start saying that you can. Eventually you will be able to do so. Maybe not right away, but you can do it. You just need to believe it, really want it and with the right coping skills, particularly coping skill #1 visualization (see below) and self-talk, you can accomplish it. I mean, it's riding an elevator, it's not flying to the top of the building. People ride elevators everyday. Those that don't are, truth be known, unable to do so simply because they tell themselves they can't. With any challenge, first clearly define the goal you want to accomplish (e.g., riding in elevators) and then clearly see the reward you'll get from reaching your goal (so you'll do the work needed to overcome the challenge). Next, set the steps you'll need to accomplish your goal. One bit of advice: if you are someone who gets easily discouraged, work in small steps. Begin by listening to relaxation tapes to calm your mind.  It's also important to be exercising regularly so that you'll be physically ready to take on your "challenge". Next (continuing with the elevator example), begin visualizing getting on the elevator, see yourself feeling calm and peaceful. See the experience as a positive, unstressful moment (as it probably was earlier in your life). Repeat the visualization as often as you feel is necessary. Remind yourself the importance of your goal and then go to the elevator. Pick one that's empty. Take a friend along for support if necessary. Be sure that your friend clearly understands your problem and will be supportive. Also be sure that your friend wants you to get better because some friends don't (they may want you to remain helpless because then you'll need to rely on them). Fill your lungs with a deep breath to help relax you, use positive self-talk, get on the elevator and press the button. Some people with severe anxiety need to have the added assurance of an "out" before they begin overcoming their challenge. In the case of the elevator, the out would be permission to get exit before the door closes. Maybe, at first, just getting on the elevator will be all you can do. Maybe you'll be able to ride it up only one or two floors. Or maybe you'll ride it to the top and then wonder how this could have ever been a problem for you. Your anxiety may be so strong that you'll turn away and not even make the attempt. All these scenarios could happen. The important thing is that you made the effort to control your anxiety (rather than have it control you.) If you made it to the top, congratulate yourself and use the experience as ammunition to confront your next challenge. If on the other hand, you didn't accomplish your goal, don't focus on your "failure" but rather focus on the courage you showed in making the attempt. Recognize that you have that courage, and just work harder to prepare yourself for the next attempt. Lower your expectations and maybe set a new goal of just getting on the elevator. Get on and then get off. Repeat that until your inner voice tells you that you're ready to take the next step

... read more »

Response:

Hi Michelle - After reading Rick's response, I don't think there's much left to cover! But I felt I should post anyway.  It definitely takes time to find the answers. Different methods work for different people.  So, don't give up! If you don't feel well, work with your doctor in trying different combinations of therapy/meds. Sometimes it really is a trial&error type of situation.  Hang in there. -take care, z [aka rob]

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have been a really anxious person all of my life, but have always been able to identify the trigger.  That is until last September.  I often feel like I am off balance, shaky, weak, dizzy, like one more movement and I will colapse.  I tried to take paxil but got brutally sick.  I am now on Effexor 150 mg.  I started it in October.  The problem is that the symptom still come and last all day. I have tried exercise, meditation (but I can’t concentrate), focusing on doing something else, self talk, I’ve talked to a counsellor, and nothing eases the symptoms. They last until I am at the point I am ready to give up before they ease. Does anyone have any ideas of anything I can try.

Response:

I have been a really anxious person all of my life, but have always been able to identify the trigger.  That is until last September.  I often feel like I am off balance, shaky, weak, dizzy, like one more movement and I will colapse.

Sometimes there are no triggers and I’ve had all those symptoms above. Of course it could be the actual anxiety itself causing you worry and well, have more anxiety. That’s the vicious circle. I tried to take paxil but got brutally sick.  I am now on Effexor 150 mg.  I started it in October.  The problem is that the symptom still come and last all day. I have tried exercise, meditation (but I can’t concentrate), focusing on doing something else, self talk, I’ve talked to a counsellor, and nothing eases the symptoms. They last until I am at the point I am ready to give up before they ease. Does anyone have any ideas of anything I can try.

I’ve tried Paxil myself for 3 months to help my anxiety. It made it worse in my case as well. I’m on Xanax to help with my PA’s but still have anxiety daily. I notice you mentioned you just about hit rock bottom before it eases up. Well, that’s what I’ve learned in my case too. So after a certain amount of time I’ve come to realize that fighting those symptoms has this effect. It’s scary but if you just let them happen you’ll see they go away much faster and after a while less often. It took me a while to build up enough courage to not flee situations (whatever that may be in your case) when they occur but I did and glad I did. The worse of my symptom was nearly passing out but this has never happened in the last 8 years dealing with anxiety. Good Luck!

Response:

Boy Rick, This is brilliant. I an saving it. There is too much for me to digest in one reading. Truly inspirational and very practical. Meryl – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi  Michelle, I hope you’re feeling better and I am glad that you’ve found the ASAP newsgroup. You’ll find that you are amongst people who know first hand what you are experiencing and I’m sure someone here at ASAP will be able to help you find the answer(s) you seek. Before I offer my advice, I want to first compliment you on your determination to overcome your anxiety "monsters". Rather than choosing the role of the victim of your situation, you have chosen to take control of your problem and find out how to beat it. Not letting your anxiety take control of you takes real courage (which is ironic considering how much we worry in our lives). So again my sincere, heartfelt congratulations! When I first started experiencing my anxiety disorder (over 10 years ago), I pretty much followed the self-help regime that you described in your post so let me start by saying that you have been making excellent choices. I’m sorry that they haven’t given you the results you were hoping for. Maybe some of my experiences below will give you insights as to why these skills haven’t been helping you, because I am at a loss to understand their ineffectiveness. The coping skills you’ve been practicing are the ones recommended by many anxiety experts. When my anxiety got out of control, I too started exercising regularly. I also went to a therapist and I practiced self-talk. I listened to relaxation tapes (rather than the meditation route). Like yourself, I even focused on doing something else when the panic attacks kicked in to try and keep my mind distracted to keep me from worrying about the symptoms I was feeling. Also like yourself, my doctor prescribed Paxil for me, but in my case the meds actually helped (despite some unwanted side effects). In response to your post, I would like to offer you (and anyone else reading this post) six suggestions as well as five additional coping skills that I use and find particularly useful. You may have tried some of them and not mentioned them in your post, but hopefully you’ll find something worth trying. I prefer to write a lot (because I want to help as many people as I can in dealing with this problem), so feel free to skip the points that don’t apply to you. Others may read this post and some of my advice, which isn’t applicable to your situation, may help them. (By the way, if you would like to know my story, feel free to read my very first post to ASAP entitled "Hello ASAP from a Newbie" posted on March 20, 2004. You’ll find my introduction to the group and hopefully recognize that the advice that follows comes from someone who really understands first hand what a drag anxiety disorder can be for us.) MY SIX SUGGESTIONS Suggestion #1: Seek Out a Local Support Group One thing you didn’t list in your post was whether or not you have sought out an anxiety support group in your own city (as opposed to on the Web). If you haven’t, I would suggest that you do so. You’re sure to get good advice here in cyberspace, but there is something to be said for face-to-face communication and as humans, we need the company of other people – the glowing smiles, the voices of concern (and even the occasional encouraging hug). Joining a real world support group also gives you the opportunity to get out of the house (which can be an added benefit to those suffering from depression or feeling agoraphobic). Family and friends can certainly offer you support, but being amongst people who truly know what you’re going through can be extremely beneficial, both emotional and educationally – I know it certainly was for me. If you agree, consider talking to your counsellor or doctor and see if they know of a local support group. Of course, please continue visiting ASAP because you’ll find good advice and support here, too. And when you do find your solution, please be sure to share your story here since we do care. Besides, your post perhaps could inspire others. Suggestion #2: Keep Practicing Your Coping Skills, Even If You Feeling Fine You write in your post that you have always been able to identify your trigger. I’m glad to read this because that suggests to me that you are aware that dealing with anxiety disorder can be a lifetime challenge. I made the mistake of thinking that once I beat it the first time, I was "cured". I stopped exercising regularly, I went back to my bad habit of listening to my negative voice and I started drinking more coffee. So my second suggestion may not necessarily be for you but for anyone else who is reading this post. Once you have overcome your anxiety disorder, don’t make the mistake that I made and think you’ve beaten it forever. If you don’t learn how to manage your anxiety properly, the panic attacks will return. Suggestion #3: Avoidance Is Not an Effective Coping Skill As I wrote in my previous suggestion, not only was I not managing my anxiety, I was actually putting out the welcome mat for its return. I made the mistake of thinking that avoidance was a coping skill! (I was not being assertive  nor was I confronting the problems I had with co-workers.) By not resolving my difficulties at my workplace, I just added those concerns to my worry pile and eventually the pile grew so large, it collapsed on me. Suggestion #4: Avoid Self Medication – It’s Only a Temporary Solution I was avoiding confronting the underlining causes of  my stress by self-medicating. Fortunately I didn’t turn to drugs or alcohol (because my father was an alcoholic). My medicine of choice was TV and I used it to tune out life’s stresses and block out my negative thinking. Suggestion #5: Watch What Your Telling Yourself I’ve done a lot of research on anxiety disorder over the years and one truism I’ve learned is this: What you tell yourself is what you believe. If you tell yourself that you can’t overcome your anxiety, then you can’t. (After all, why would you lie to yourself?) If you say that you can’t ride a bus, won’t get into an elevator, etc., you can’t and you won’t. And worst of all, by not facing your stress triggers, you’re subconsciously validating these false assumptions. If it’s true that you believe the negative things you tell yourself, it’s equally true that you believe the positive things. For example, say you have a problem with elevators. If instead of saying you can’t ride on elevators, you start saying that you can. Eventually you will be able to do so. Maybe not right away, but you can do it. You just need to believe it, really want it and with the right coping skills, particularly coping skill #1 visualization (see below) and self-talk, you can accomplish it. I mean, it’s riding an elevator, it’s not flying to the top of the building. People ride elevators everyday. Those that don’t are, truth be known, unable to do so simply because they tell themselves they can’t. With any challenge, first clearly define the goal you want to accomplish (e.g., riding in elevators) and then clearly see the reward you’ll get from reaching your goal (so you’ll do the work needed to overcome the challenge). Next, set the steps you’ll need to accomplish your goal. One bit of advice: if you are someone who gets easily discouraged, work in small steps. Begin by listening to relaxation tapes to calm your mind.  It’s also important to be exercising regularly so that you’ll be physically ready to take on your "challenge". Next (continuing with the elevator example), begin visualizing getting on the elevator, see yourself feeling calm and peaceful. See the experience as a positive, unstressful moment (as it probably was earlier in your life). Repeat the visualization as often as you feel is necessary. Remind yourself the importance of your goal and then go to the elevator. Pick one that’s empty. Take a friend along for support if necessary. Be sure that your friend clearly understands your problem and will be supportive. Also be sure that your friend wants you to get better because some friends don’t (they may want you to remain helpless because then you’ll need to rely on them). Fill your lungs with a deep breath to help relax you, use positive self-talk, get on the elevator and press the button. Some people with severe anxiety need to have the added assurance of an "out" before they begin overcoming their challenge. In the case of the elevator, the out would be permission to get exit before the door closes. Maybe, at first, just getting on the elevator will be all you can do. Maybe you’ll be able to ride it up only one or two floors. Or maybe you’ll ride it to the top and then wonder how this could have ever been a problem for you. Your anxiety may be so strong that you’ll turn away and not even make the attempt. All these scenarios could happen. The important thing is that you made the effort to control your anxiety (rather than have it control you.) If you made it to the top, congratulate yourself and use the experience as ammunition to confront your next challenge. If on the other hand, you didn’t accomplish your goal, don’t focus on your "failure" but rather focus on the courage you showed in making the attempt. Recognize that you have that courage, and just work harder to prepare yourself for the next attempt. Lower your expectations and maybe set a new goal of just getting on the elevator. Get on and then get off. Repeat that until your inner voice tells you that you’re ready to take the next step (but remember to listen to your true inner voice, not the negative voice that has been lying to you about being unable to do the normal activities that you

… read more »

Response:

I have been a really anxious person all of my life, but have always been able to identify the trigger.  That is until last September.  I often feel like I am off balance, shaky, weak, dizzy, like one more movement and I will colapse.  I tried to take paxil but got brutally sick.  I am now on Effexor 150 mg.  I started it in October.  The problem is that the symptom still come and last all day. I have tried exercise, meditation (but I can’t concentrate), focusing on doing something else, self talk, I’ve talked to a counsellor, and nothing eases the symptoms. They last until I am at the point I am ready to give up before they ease. Does anyone have any ideas of anything I can try.

Response:

Meds are often a hard thing to get right with conditions like ours.  I would suggest you talk to your doctor about switching meds.  I ended up trying a couple before I found the right combo for me, and you will find that is most peoples experience.  Paxil is rather difficult to get on so I would not feel bad about not being able to do it.  Effexor is a good one if it works for you, but in this case it does not seem to be.  There are several other meds out there and experiences going on them varies by individual.  If you feel the initial side effects are a bit much maybe your doc can give you a benzo to get you over the initial period.  For now hang in there, and good Luck! d

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have been a really anxious person all of my life, but have always been able to identify the trigger.  That is until last September.  I often feel like I am off balance, shaky, weak, dizzy, like one more movement and I will colapse.  I tried to take paxil but got brutally sick.  I am now on Effexor 150 mg.  I started it in October.  The problem is that the symptom still come and last all day. I have tried exercise, meditation (but I can’t concentrate), focusing on doing something else, self talk, I’ve talked to a counsellor, and nothing eases the symptoms. They last until I am at the point I am ready to give up before they ease. Does anyone have any ideas of anything I can try.

Response:

Hi  Michelle, I hope you’re feeling better and I am glad that you’ve found the ASAP newsgroup. You’ll find that you are amongst people who know first hand what you are experiencing and I’m sure someone here at ASAP will be able to help you find the answer(s) you seek. Before I offer my advice, I want to first compliment you on your determination to overcome your anxiety "monsters". Rather than choosing the role of the victim of your situation, you have chosen to take control of your problem and find out how to beat it. Not letting your anxiety take control of you takes real courage (which is ironic considering how much we worry in our lives). So again my sincere, heartfelt congratulations! When I first started experiencing my anxiety disorder (over 10 years ago), I pretty much followed the self-help regime that you described in your post so let me start by saying that you have been making excellent choices. I’m sorry that they haven’t given you the results you were hoping for. Maybe some of my experiences below will give you insights as to why these skills haven’t been helping you, because I am at a loss to understand their ineffectiveness. The coping skills you’ve been practicing are the ones recommended by many anxiety experts. When my anxiety got out of control, I too started exercising regularly. I also went to a therapist and I practiced self-talk. I listened to relaxation tapes (rather than the meditation route). Like yourself, I even focused on doing something else when the panic attacks kicked in to try and keep my mind distracted to keep me from worrying about the symptoms I was feeling. Also like yourself, my doctor prescribed Paxil for me, but in my case the meds actually helped (despite some unwanted side effects). In response to your post, I would like to offer you (and anyone else reading this post) six suggestions as well as five additional coping skills that I use and find particularly useful. You may have tried some of them and not mentioned them in your post, but hopefully you’ll find something worth trying. I prefer to write a lot (because I want to help as many people as I can in dealing with this problem), so feel free to skip the points that don’t apply to you. Others may read this post and some of my advice, which isn’t applicable to your situation, may help them. (By the way, if you would like to know my story, feel free to read my very first post to ASAP entitled "Hello ASAP from a Newbie" posted on March 20, 2004. You’ll find my introduction to the group and hopefully recognize that the advice that follows comes from someone who really understands first hand what a drag anxiety disorder can be for us.) MY SIX SUGGESTIONS Suggestion #1: Seek Out a Local Support Group One thing you didn’t list in your post was whether or not you have sought out an anxiety support group in your own city (as opposed to on the Web). If you haven’t, I would suggest that you do so. You’re sure to get good advice here in cyberspace, but there is something to be said for face-to-face communication and as humans, we need the company of other people – the glowing smiles, the voices of concern (and even the occasional encouraging hug). Joining a real world support group also gives you the opportunity to get out of the house (which can be an added benefit to those suffering from depression or feeling agoraphobic). Family and friends can certainly offer you support, but being amongst people who truly know what you’re going through can be extremely beneficial, both emotional and educationally – I know it certainly was for me. If you agree, consider talking to your counsellor or doctor and see if they know of a local support group. Of course, please continue visiting ASAP because you’ll find good advice and support here, too. And when you do find your solution, please be sure to share your story here since we do care. Besides, your post perhaps could inspire others. Suggestion #2: Keep Practicing Your Coping Skills, Even If You Feeling Fine You write in your post that you have always been able to identify your trigger. I’m glad to read this because that suggests to me that you are aware that dealing with anxiety disorder can be a lifetime challenge. I made the mistake of thinking that once I beat it the first time, I was "cured". I stopped exercising regularly, I went back to my bad habit of listening to my negative voice and I started drinking more coffee. So my second suggestion may not necessarily be for you but for anyone else who is reading this post. Once you have overcome your anxiety disorder, don’t make the mistake that I made and think you’ve beaten it forever. If you don’t learn how to manage your anxiety properly, the panic attacks will return. Suggestion #3: Avoidance Is Not an Effective Coping Skill As I wrote in my previous suggestion, not only was I not managing my anxiety, I was actually putting out the welcome mat for its return. I made the mistake of thinking that avoidance was a coping skill! (I was not being assertive  nor was I confronting the problems I had with co-workers.) By not resolving my difficulties at my workplace, I just added those concerns to my worry pile and eventually the pile grew so large, it collapsed on me. Suggestion #4: Avoid Self Medication – It’s Only a Temporary Solution I was avoiding confronting the underlining causes of  my stress by self-medicating. Fortunately I didn’t turn to drugs or alcohol (because my father was an alcoholic). My medicine of choice was TV and I used it to tune out life’s stresses and block out my negative thinking. Suggestion #5: Watch What Your Telling Yourself I’ve done a lot of research on anxiety disorder over the years and one truism I’ve learned is this: What you tell yourself is what you believe. If you tell yourself that you can’t overcome your anxiety, then you can’t. (After all, why would you lie to yourself?) If you say that you can’t ride a bus, won’t get into an elevator, etc., you can’t and you won’t. And worst of all, by not facing your stress triggers, you’re subconsciously validating these false assumptions. If it’s true that you believe the negative things you tell yourself, it’s equally true that you believe the positive things. For example, say you have a problem with elevators. If instead of saying you can’t ride on elevators, you start saying that you can. Eventually you will be able to do so. Maybe not right away, but you can do it. You just need to believe it, really want it and with the right coping skills, particularly coping skill #1 visualization (see below) and self-talk, you can accomplish it. I mean, it’s riding an elevator, it’s not flying to the top of the building. People ride elevators everyday. Those that don’t are, truth be known, unable to do so simply because they tell themselves they can’t. With any challenge, first clearly define the goal you want to accomplish (e.g., riding in elevators) and then clearly see the reward you’ll get from reaching your goal (so you’ll do the work needed to overcome the challenge). Next, set the steps you’ll need to accomplish your goal. One bit of advice: if you are someone who gets easily discouraged, work in small steps. Begin by listening to relaxation tapes to calm your mind.  It’s also important to be exercising regularly so that you’ll be physically ready to take on your "challenge". Next (continuing with the elevator example), begin visualizing getting on the elevator, see yourself feeling calm and peaceful. See the experience as a positive, unstressful moment (as it probably was earlier in your life). Repeat the visualization as often as you feel is necessary. Remind yourself the importance of your goal and then go to the elevator. Pick one that’s empty. Take a friend along for support if necessary. Be sure that your friend clearly understands your problem and will be supportive. Also be sure that your friend wants you to get better because some friends don’t (they may want you to remain helpless because then you’ll need to rely on them). Fill your lungs with a deep breath to help relax you, use positive self-talk, get on the elevator and press the button. Some people with severe anxiety need to have the added assurance of an "out" before they begin overcoming their challenge. In the case of the elevator, the out would be permission to get exit before the door closes. Maybe, at first, just getting on the elevator will be all you can do. Maybe you’ll be able to ride it up only one or two floors. Or maybe you’ll ride it to the top and then wonder how this could have ever been a problem for you. Your anxiety may be so strong that you’ll turn away and not even make the attempt. All these scenarios could happen. The important thing is that you made the effort to control your anxiety (rather than have it control you.) If you made it to the top, congratulate yourself and use the experience as ammunition to confront your next challenge. If on the other hand, you didn’t accomplish your goal, don’t focus on your "failure" but rather focus on the courage you showed in making the attempt. Recognize that you have that courage, and just work harder to prepare yourself for the next attempt. Lower your expectations and maybe set a new goal of just getting on the elevator. Get on and then get off. Repeat that until your inner voice tells you that you’re ready to take the next step (but remember to listen to your true inner voice, not the negative voice that has been lying to you about being unable to do the normal activities that you really want to accomplish). Eventually you’ll overcome your challenge. Like everything else in life, it just takes work, practice, and time but most importantly the desire to succeed. Now elevators are probably not a problem for you, Michelle ,but if you are as anxious as you say you are, there’s probably something else you could substitute, such as a trip to the dentist. Whatever it is, … read more »

Response:

Question:

Has anyone heard of Zoloft withdrawal lasting longer than a couple of weeks? I was taking 200 to 250 mg Zoloft daily (increased during PMS) and then switched to Celexa. I was frustrated with neither of them helping my depression, so I unwisely abruptly discontinued the medication. My withdrawal symptoms ranged from moderate to severe…initially, I experienced extreme agitation, anxiety, crying, uncharacteristic rage, and formication (sensation that bugs were crawling on me). With the help of my doctor, I restarted a low dose of Celexa (I had been on 20 mg prior to this) and tapered off–but still quicker than I should have because I’m stubborn. The main problems that persisted for a couple of weeks were numbness and tingling in my arms and legs, and then spontaneous pain or muscle spasms in my legs. (Pretty darn painful). That and gastro-intestinal distress. My doctor felt that most of this was actually withdrawal from the Zoloft, not Celexa. She felt that the Celexa had prevented me from going into Zoloft withdrawal, but when I discontinued Celexa, the Zoloft withdrawal kicked in. From what I’ve read about other people’s experiences with Zoloft withdrawal, my symptoms do appear to match theirs. I had been taking Zoloft (at different doses) for about 4 years. I tried other medications during that time, but I was unable to tolerate most of them. I am very sensitive to medications and tend to have side effects with just about everything I take, usually to the point where I don’t want to take anything. Back to the symptoms–after 2-1/2 weeks, these symptoms diminished. 3-1/2 weeks after the initial discontinuation, however, I had a flare-up of gastro-intenstinal distress that lasted a day or two. Then, 4-1/2 weeks after the initial discontinuation (maybe 2 weeks since stopping the mild tapering-off) I experienced the leg pain, numbness, tingling along with severe stomach cramps and such. I did not expect to still be experiencing withdrawal symptoms, so I’m confused. Am I imagining things? Is this something else? Thank you for any help you can provide.

Response:

Question:

Hey everyone. i was wondering if anyone had any side effects from zoloft?  I’ve been on zoloft for 6 weeks now and after 4 weeks I got terrible diareah and nausea and the wieredest thing is i missed my period.  Any other women have that sort of thing happen to them?  The only reason I’m asking is I’m trying to figure out if i might possibly be pregnant.  So let me know. Joanne

Response:

I take 150 mgs of zoloft daily and had/have absolutely no symptoms at all. It never affected my periods either.  Maybe you’d better get one of those little test kits? td "Joanne Johnson" <za…@worldnet.att.net

wrote in message

news:7K1F7.155058$3d2.5648274@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Hey everyone. i was wondering if anyone had any side effects from zoloft?  I’ve been on zoloft for 6 weeks now and after 4 weeks I got terrible diareah and nausea and the wieredest thing is i missed my period.  Any other women have that sort of thing happen to them?  The only reason I’m asking is I’m trying to figure out if i might possibly be pregnant.  So let me know. Joanne

Response:

Joanne, Common adverse effects of Zoloft are as follows: Nausea Somnolence Diarrhea Insomnia Constipation Ejaculatory Dysfunction Dyspepsia Agitation Anorexia Impotence Weight gain Your missed period could be a coincidence. The other two symptoms are common side effects of Zoloft. Talk to your doctor if the symptoms are more than a minor inconvenience. Risa Whenever I wake up on top of the mattress, I know I’m getting up on the right side of the bed.

Response:

Sure.  Look at the   Fruits and  Nuts  in  here. KCOM missed his  period  too. Joanne Johnson <za…@worldnet.att.net

wrote in message

news:7K1F7.155058$3d2.5648274@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Hey everyone. i was wondering if anyone had any side effects from zoloft?  I’ve been on zoloft for 6 weeks now and after 4 weeks I got terrible diareah and nausea and the wieredest thing is i missed my period.  Any other women have that sort of thing happen to them?  The only reason I’m asking is I’m trying to figure out if i might possibly be pregnant.  So let me know. Joanne

Response:

wired me like a coke freak or something. I couldn’t handle the extra anxiety that it gave me. harumph

Response:

I’ve never missed a period while being on it.  But at first, it made me really hyper.  After about 8-9 weeks, that stopped.  I didn’t have any other side effects from it, luckily. kat "Joanne Johnson" <za…@worldnet.att.net

wrote in message

news:7K1F7.155058$3d2.5648274@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Hey everyone. i was wondering if anyone had any side effects from zoloft?  I’ve been on zoloft for 6 weeks now and after 4 weeks I got terrible diareah and nausea and the wieredest thing is i missed my period.  Any other women have that sort of thing happen to them?  The only reason I’m asking is I’m trying to figure out if i might possibly be pregnant.  So let me know. Joanne

Response:

Had a close friend who experienced hypomania and increased aggressionand "magical speaking dreams" from it .She was unaware of it for some time. She wreaked havoc amongst her work colleagues and pals.She changed meds after the shrink realised (months later) what was up. Helski

Response:

I talk to my Dr and they say that its not from the zoloft.  I’m still testing negative on the home pregnancy tests.  I’ve got to go in and have blood work done to find out for sure.  I’ll let ya all know one way or the other what happens. Joanne

Response:

Hi Joanne, Taking Zoloft (Lustral over here in the UK) was an awful mistake for me. Within hours, I was experiencing a really clamping jaw tension – which my daft doctor stupidly claimed I had always had even though I had never had it before. My eyes went odd and starey, and felt pressured – this settled down after a few days but they were never right while I was on it. I had the awful nausea you mentioned, plus the upset stomach, headaches, and all sorts of other goodies. The nausea stayed after taking it, so did the bad stomach. Oh and I had tremors as well. Boy that stuff loved me. NOT. I suggest you keep an eye on it as it may be that it doesn’t agree with you. I wish I had come off sooner. Maybe have a chat about alternatives if it continues to be a problem. I found these side effects with all SSRI’s I tried (= Prozac and Seroxat). If you get muscle tension that you haven’t had before, like I did in my jaw, then I think that may be a real indication it is wrong for you. That said, you may decide that even this ‘wrong’ is more right for you than being without the benefits of the drug. Everyone is unique, chemically. BFN, Cary Charles ;O) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

"Joanne Johnson" <za…@worldnet.att.net wrote in message news:7K1F7.155058$3d2.5648274@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net… Hey everyone. i was wondering if anyone had any side effects from zoloft?  I’ve been

on

zoloft for 6 weeks now and after 4 weeks I got terrible diareah and

nausea

and the wieredest thing is i missed my period.  Any other women have

that

sort of thing happen to them?  The only reason I’m asking is I’m trying

to

figure out if i might possibly be pregnant.  So let me know. Joanne

Response:

Cary wrote:

Taking Zoloft (Lustral over here in the UK) was an awful mistake for me. Within hours, I was experiencing a really clamping jaw tension … My eyes went odd and starey, and felt pressured…

I’m surprised by your doctor’s attitude about what were obviously some bad side effects. I was inpatient when the treating psychiatrist ordered clonazepam (Klonopin in the U.S.) to slow me down a little bit. I had that same clamping jaw tension and weirdness in my vision. It was diagnosed as a mild allergic reaction. I was immediately given diphenhydramine (Benadryl) by injection. A couple of hours of sleep and I was good to go. No more of that med for me. I now use a program for my Palm pilot called Epocrates. It’s like a portable PDR (Physician’s Desk Reference), which is the 4" thick, 6-8 lb. (3.63 kg) tome that doctor’s in the U.S. use as a medication reference. I can look up any medication in seconds. I KNOW what to expect before I take the med, and I can search through classes of meds for something with less annoying or fewer side effects. That way, I’m as well informed as my doctor. E-mail me if you have more questions. Risa War doesn’t decide who’s right, only who’s left.

Response:

Unless you wish to be pregnant, I’ll pray that you aren’t I guess the diarehia is from the zoloft then… good to know… I wish everything goes well with you and zoloft… i think i’m going to have my pdoc take me off of it… i’ll try it out till the 11th and see… love ya’s! Tia

Response:

"RisaCaitlin" <risacait…@aol.competition

wrote in message

news:20011128071357.04371.00003384@mb-fc.aol.com…

I’m surprised by your doctor’s attitude about what were obviously some bad

side

effects.

So was I and my whole family, but at that time I had only had PTSD for about 18 years and they hadn’t diagnosed it – I ended up researching the problem on the internet and finding out that I had PTSD, then having to convince them, then having an assessment which ended with the guy telling me he had been told to disprove that I had PTSD, but instead was appalled at how I had been treated and that, yes, I definitely had PTSD! How is that for an easy ride? NOT!

I was inpatient when the treating psychiatrist ordered clonazepam

(Klonopin in

the U.S.) to slow me down a little bit. I had that same clamping jaw

tension

and weirdness in my vision. It was diagnosed as a mild allergic reaction. I was immediately given diphenhydramine (Benadryl) by injection. A couple of hours of sleep and I

was

good to go. No more of that med for me.

Well in hindsight I think I may have experienced something similar. I also wonder if it did long-term damage as my digestive system has never been the same since and I still have the awful clamping jaw that I never had before I took the stuff. I wonder if it altered something for the worse. Anyway, Kava Kava helps relax it if it is too bad. I did hear from an accident and emergency nurse though, and she said that she had encountered this muscular tension with SSRI usage, and that it was a sign that it really wasn’t agreeing with a person. Instead of keeping on taking it, they should come off it. Wish I had known that back then, or better still, that my doctor had! Never mind.

I now use a program for my Palm pilot called Epocrates. It’s like a

portable

PDR (Physician’s Desk Reference), which is the 4" thick, 6-8 lb. (3.63 kg)

tome

that doctor’s in the U.S. use as a medication reference. I can look up any medication in seconds. I KNOW what to expect before I take the med, and I

can

search through classes of meds for something with less annoying or fewer

side

effects. That way, I’m as well informed as my doctor.

I think that is a really sensible and responsible approach. I do loads of research before I take anything significant. I have learned the hard way, but it pays to be in the know.

E-mail me if you have more questions.

Thanks for that, and for your reply! BFN, Cary )

Response:

Finaly got into see my ob/gyn and i’m not pregnant but they think my hormones are messed up.  The side effects from the zoloft have gone away. Now I’ll have to have some blood work done to find out which hormores are messed up.  Maybe i will finally get some good help. Joanne UTend2KillMe <queenweasel…@aol.com

wrote in message

news:ef3a60d2.0111281922.502b9234@posting.google.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Unless you wish to be pregnant, I’ll pray that you aren’t I guess the diarehia is from the zoloft then… good to know… I wish everything goes well with you and zoloft… i think i’m going to have my pdoc take me off of it… i’ll try it out till the 11th and see… love ya’s! Tia

Response:

"RisaCaitlin" <risacait…@aol.competition

wrote in message

news:20011128071357.04371.00003384@mb-fc.aol.com…

I was inpatient when the treating psychiatrist ordered clonazepam

(Klonopin in

the U.S.) to slow me down a little bit. I had that same clamping jaw

tension

and weirdness in my vision. <snip

Risa, I am supposed to be taking Klonopin for Restless Leg Syndrome, and it helped a lot for that.  I am having problems with my legs now I’m off of it. I find the muscle problems with Zoloft interesting in that I have fibromyalgia (and I believe Chronic Myofasial Pain Disorder).  Add to that the osteoarthritis (was on Celebrex) and I have muscles and joints hurting literally everywhere.  I am also supposed to be on neurontin.  I’m to the point where I just want my anti-depressant, estrogen, klonopin, celebrex and the ambien.  I am ready to ditch the other four meds I was on, but I think I ended up with them to counteract the side effects of the original meds (swelling in the feet and hands and high blood pressure).  I can never tell which ailment is causing which "feeling!"  No wonder the doctors just throw up their hands.  :-/ *HUGS* Jacque ~**~**~**~**~**~**~**~**~**~**~**~**~**~ Jacque Keller www.tjkeller.net/jkeller/Jacque/ (personal) www.bramblerose.net (business)

Response:

Question:

I take a total of 375mg of Effexor (75mg tablets).  Does it matter when I take it?  I know that certain drugs it doesn’t matter when or how you break up the dosage, but in others it does make a difference.  Thanks for your help. T*A*R

Response:

Apparently, Effexor needs to be taken twice a day as it doesn’t stay in the system as long as others. p – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I take a total of 375mg of Effexor (75mg tablets).  Does it matter when I take it?  I know that certain drugs it doesn’t matter when or how you break up the dosage, but in others it does make a difference.  Thanks for your help. T*A*R

Response:

<Posted and Mailed Apparently, Effexor needs to be taken twice a day as it doesn’t stay in the system as long as others.

With that (375 mg) high of a dose of Effexor, I would definitely suggest taking it 4 times per day in order to level out the amount of antidepressant in a person’s system. I found that taking Effexor only twice per day induced ultra-rapid hypomanic swings in me. There is now a new extended release form of Effexor that should reduce this probability. However I have not personally tried that formulation. p I take a total of 375mg of Effexor (75mg tablets). Does it matter when I take it?  I know that certain drugs it doesn’t matter when or how you break up the dosage, but in others it does make a difference.  Thanks for your help.

That is a lot of Effexor! My guess is that your mood stabilizer is not doing its job for you adequately — if you need that large of a dosage of AD to keep you out of depression. I suggest that you talk with your pdoc if you are not satisfied with the effectiveness of your current mood stabilizer. If you start to take either of the two newer mood stabilizers (Neurontin or Lamictal), I strongly recommend that you discuss with your pdoc about cutting way back on your Effexor dose — else you will run the risk of being rapidly sent into (hypo)mania. BTW I take all my meds (with the exception of certain antibiotics and insulin) with meals or milk. This seems to help with stomach irritation and nausea. YSMV (Your Stomach May Vary). T*A*R

HTH! Best regards from, James — * Since I do not get a complete Newsfeed, I would appreciate receiving * * a copy of any responding posts. Please also indicate if you are      * * posting as well as emailing me. Thanks for helping me out!           *

Response:

Question:

I’ve been off the stuff for about 3 days now..can’t really say I feel that bad…I actually feel BETTER….my body feel so much less sluggish and I want to DO stuff and I don’t feel uneven or unstable by any stretch of the imagination. I just feel good because this is actually turhing out to be an "up" week for me.  Maybe I don’t need the meds…  I dunno….things are on an upward curve for me at eh moment.  I feel great….great great great…..not upity, but just plain old great. i think.

dear spacegurl, i’ve done what you’ve done so many times…hell, i’m not on any mood stabilizers right now (shhh!) actually, i’m going to my doctor to trade my (rash-inducing…but that was just me…) tegretol for what i’m guessing will be neurontin, since i’ve tried most others. my summary of life without meds: short term, i felt fine. long term, i never have really gotten better. i haven’t had any unusual catastrophes, but i’ve just never been able to really "heal." my mood/neuro-issues still interfere with my life. it’s cyclical, so somtimes i think i’ll be fine without… in fact, i stayed off meds for seven years. but i am coming back to try again. i haven’t been able to produce much artwork (except for my website) or hold a job for long, i feel alternately sad and without energy or frightened/agitated, and my boyfriend and i are increasingly socially isolated due to my having a panic attack half of the times we try to go out. note: i also haven’t been able to stick to an exercise schedule of any kind when depressed! this seems pathetic to me, as i used to take ballet, race bikes, etc. so i am urging you to try different meds instead- and on your terms. my first time on lithium, i gained a ton of weight and consequently felt so betrayed by my doctors, who didn’t even warn me…and i’ve also tried depakote. neither worked for me anyway… I do’nt see how any meds that make you gain weight can make you happy.  At least not for me.

i really do agree. as i’ve said before (on this newsgroup,) every med i try is a gamble- it may help, it may not. whereas i *k*n*o*w* that the more weight i gain, the more depressed i’ll get. it’s just common sense to be unwilling to take a drug that makes me depressed via weight gain when i’m taking it to alleviate depression in the first place! call it vanity if you wish, but that’s my philosophy. I know, I need to change my views on this, but hey…I am doing what I need to do.

i know- believe me. but before you leave the mystical world of psychopharmacology, i really wanted to show you this: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ask the Expert – Mood Disorder Meds Weigh In Q. What mood disorder medications are most likely/least likely to cause weight gain? Information on both bipolar and unipolar drug therapy would be appreciated. A. The following is a basic summary of the effects of various mood medications, and their usual effect on weight: Key +++ weight gain very likely, often exceeding 8 lbs ++ weight gain sometimes seen, usually modest (5-6 lbs) + weight gain uncommon (less than 5% of patients) and usually less than 5 lbs. Antidepressants Fluoxetine (Prozac), Sertraline (Zoloft), Paroxetine (Paxil) + Bupropion (Wellbutrin) + Venlafaxine (Effexor) + Tricyclics Elavil, Tofranil, Doxepin and others +++ Mood stabilizers Lithium +++ (average weight gain=9 lbs) Valproate (Depakote) ++ Carbamazepine (Tegretol) + Note: Some elderly patients actually lose weight while taking Prozac. These figures are based on the literature, and my own experience. Patients vary greatly in their responses, however, and there are always patients who gain weight when they weren’t supposed to on a given agent.

i’m admittedly not sure where i got this.. it was a well-established website that i found easily by entering "weight" and "bipolar" into a search engine. spacegurl, i just want to let you know that not all drugs cause fattening. some even encourage loss (wellbutrin has been known to cause a loss of over 5 pounds in about 25% of the people who take it, for example. i wouldn’t really recommend  it as the most effective drug out there, but your results may differ.) i haven’t seen most of your posts leading up to this, but if you’re really quitting meds over the weight issue alone, you still have a range of options you could try (tegretol, neurontin…) love and luck, selene

Response:

Well,  I just thought I’d check in with you guyus and first of all thanks you all sooooooo much for your e-mails and responses on here.  they really did help me.  I know you guys think that I am drilling a hole in my foot doing what i"M doin, but I can’t think of any other way.  I’ve been off the stuff for about 3 days now..can’t really say I feel that bad…I actually feel BETTER….my body feel so much less sluggish and I want to DO stuff and I don’t feel uneven or unstable by any stretch of the imagination. I just feel good because this is actually turhing out to be an "up" week for me.  Maybe I don’t need the meds…  I dunno….things are on an upward curve for me at eh moment.  I feel great….great great great…..not upity, but just plain old great. i think. But the weight thing was just a pisser for me.  I do’nt see how any meds that make you gain weight can make you happy.  At least not for me.  I know, I need to change my views on this, but hey…I am doing what I need to do. I think it is great that people out there are able to get help w/ the medication.  I won’t ever go backk on the stuff….i won’t. never ever ever…yuck. So, just thought I"d let you all know I am doing excellent w/ out the meds! — For more information about this service, send e-mail to:

Response: