Question:

Thanks to all who replied to my question about Advair. We were very careful to keep the Flovent the same level (she used the Flovent inhaler in addition to the Advair to keep it equal) and she switched from a Serevent diskus, so all things should have been the same. However, I left the choice to her, and she decided to go back to the Serevent diskus and Flovent MDI. She hasn’t been having any problem since. I guess it’s a case of "different strokes for different folks." sue — Susan Hartman/Dirty Linen The Magazine of Folk and World Music http://www.dirtylinen.com

Response:

Does Advair have the same compounds as Pulmicort. Check with your doctor. Lane – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello. I’ve read lots of posts about Advair and seen that most people like it. But I’m still slightly concerned. My 13-y.o. daughter has severe asthma and takes Accolate, Serevent, Flovent, and Zyrtec. She’s been well controlled over the summer. In the past she has tried Pulmicort Turbohaler and had disastrous results. She couldn’t sleep at night, couldn’t wake in the morning, and had awful nightmares and almost "psychotic" dreams/nighttime episodes. This occured between 1-3 weeks after starting Pulmicort, and when we made the connection we put her back on Flovent and she was fine. (And this has happened twice, at 18-mo intervals). Well, she just started Advair about a week and a half ago and is starting to have trouble sleeping and waking. This morning she mentioned that she thinks it might be similar to the Pulmicort experience. But since it’s just the first couple of weeks of school, it’s hard to say whether it’s Advair-related or normal teen adjustment to a daytime schedule! Though she did also just yesterday have her first asthma flare in a long while – several weeks at least (used the neb for the first time since the beginning of summer). So my question is, has anyone had similar problems with Pulmicort Turbohaler, and what is the experience of those "sensitive" people to Advair? Is there something related to the delivery method? Or was the Pulmicort/Flovent difference related to the drug involved? I should also mention that’s she’s one of those unfortunate people who responds "over the top" to prednisone…every bad side effect known to woman! Munchies, water retention, screaming meanies, etc. Thanks for any light you can shed. Sue — Susan Hartman/Dirty Linen The Magazine of Folk and World Music http://www.dirtylinen.com

Response:

Her reaction to Advair shouldn’t be any different than her reaction to Flovent and Serevent since Advair is the combination of the 2 drugs in a more convenient form. What dose is she on? And did she increase her dose? For example if she was on Flovent 220 is her Advair 250/50? Or higher?

Response:

Well, she just started Advair about a week and a half ago and is starting to have trouble sleeping and waking. This morning she mentioned that she thinks it might be similar to the Pulmicort experience.

It may be an issue of dose. It is possible that her technique with the MDI is not optimal so what the doctor thinks is an equivalent dose of the dry powder inhalers is actually an increase. Advair comes in three different strengths so it may be possible to reduce her dose safely. — CBI, MD

Response:

I took Advair for about six weeks and finally decided to take a break inasmuch as my nasal passges have been very sore deuring that time.  I don’t know if there’s a connection, thus the break to see what happens.  If it clears up then reappears when I resume the Advair, then I’ve resolved the problem.  I did find that the NIH resume was most helpful … I don’t have it in front of me, but loss of sleep might’ve been one of the side effects. Hope this helps … Al Fisher

Response:

Hello. I’ve read lots of posts about Advair and seen that most people like it. But I’m still slightly concerned.

I loved Advair.  I was down to one puff a day, and was off my ventolin inhalers completely.  <I am one ofthose people who has cats, sleeps with them – and is allergic However, I also had a concern – I began having heart palpitaitons.  I checked the web for side effects, asked the doctor – and my concerns were dismissed.  I ended up in the hospital with Ventricular Tachycardia (VT). Normally a very healthy (other than the asthma) adult who hikes, bikes and climbs stairs, my energy level was dropping off the bottom. I have since read that the Advair guys had done some tests on VT and Advair, but I don’t know what the results were.  Why would they do the tests if there was no concern?  If you do develop VT from using Advair – does it disappear after you stop using it? Does anyone have any anecdotal evidence on this? Connie

Response:

I found on a switch from Aerobid to Flovent, that the switch itself caused me to be extremely sensitive for about 3 weeks. It wasn’t that the new drug didn’t work, I think it was that the old one quit before the new one built up. Time may help? LA – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello. I’ve read lots of posts about Advair and seen that most people like it. But I’m still slightly concerned. My 13-y.o. daughter has severe asthma and takes Accolate, Serevent, Flovent, and Zyrtec. She’s been well controlled over the summer. In the past she has tried Pulmicort Turbohaler and had disastrous results. She couldn’t sleep at night, couldn’t wake in the morning, and had awful nightmares and almost "psychotic" dreams/nighttime episodes. This occured between 1-3 weeks after starting Pulmicort, and when we made the connection we put her back on Flovent and she was fine. (And this has happened twice, at 18-mo intervals). Well, she just started Advair about a week and a half ago and is starting to have trouble sleeping and waking. This morning she mentioned that she thinks it might be similar to the Pulmicort experience. But since it’s just the first couple of weeks of school, it’s hard to say whether it’s Advair-related or normal teen adjustment to a daytime schedule! Though she did also just yesterday have her first asthma flare in a long while – several weeks at least (used the neb for the first time since the beginning of summer). So my question is, has anyone had similar problems with Pulmicort Turbohaler, and what is the experience of those "sensitive" people to Advair? Is there something related to the delivery method? Or was the Pulmicort/Flovent difference related to the drug involved? I should also mention that’s she’s one of those unfortunate people who responds "over the top" to prednisone…every bad side effect known to woman! Munchies, water retention, screaming meanies, etc. Thanks for any light you can shed. Sue — Susan Hartman/Dirty Linen The Magazine of Folk and World Music http://www.dirtylinen.com

Response:

Hello. I’ve read lots of posts about Advair and seen that most people like it. But I’m still slightly concerned. My 13-y.o. daughter has severe asthma and takes Accolate, Serevent, Flovent, and Zyrtec. She’s been well controlled over the summer. In the past she has tried Pulmicort Turbohaler and had disastrous results. She couldn’t sleep at night, couldn’t wake in the morning, and had awful nightmares and almost "psychotic" dreams/nighttime episodes. This occured between 1-3 weeks after starting Pulmicort, and when we made the connection we put her back on Flovent and she was fine. (And this has happened twice, at 18-mo intervals). Well, she just started Advair about a week and a half ago and is starting to have trouble sleeping and waking. This morning she mentioned that she thinks it might be similar to the Pulmicort experience. But since it’s just the first couple of weeks of school, it’s hard to say whether it’s Advair-related or normal teen adjustment to a daytime schedule! Though she did also just yesterday have her first asthma flare in a long while – several weeks at least (used the neb for the first time since the beginning of summer). So my question is, has anyone had similar problems with Pulmicort Turbohaler, and what is the experience of those "sensitive" people to Advair? Is there something related to the delivery method? Or was the Pulmicort/Flovent difference related to the drug involved? I should also mention that’s she’s one of those unfortunate people who responds "over the top" to prednisone…every bad side effect known to woman! Munchies, water retention, screaming meanies, etc. Thanks for any light you can shed. Sue — Susan Hartman/Dirty Linen The Magazine of Folk and World Music http://www.dirtylinen.com

Response:

Question:

Hi! Sorry about all those bogus Boytko (or whatever) responses you got. A very good suggestion was given to you: to make sure you don’t have sleep apena, and that your asthma isn’t bothering you when you sleep. I would be wary of the theophylline. There are much better drugs for your asthma. Are you on flovent 220 at least 2 times a day? If not, I"d increase that and dump the theophylline. I had *severe* side effects from the theophylline that lasted for years (because I took it for years) and it really affected my sleep. Perhaps try singulair or accolate or something. If you are taking all those medications for asthma you should be seeing a specialist, not just a doctor: and they might be able to help you further with your problems. I personally also had similar side effects from the serevent, but I do know that many others tolerate it well. Intal did nothing for me, and is usually not an "as needed" drug- you have to take it all the time for it to have any affect, right? I found that Intal (and Tilade) actually made my exercise induced asthma *worse* because it irritated me and didn’t help. Also, with all the above, do try to start an exercise program and certainly improve your diet. Just because your diet hasn’t changed in 10 years doesn’t mean *you* haven’t.  It can make a big difference in how you feel energetically, and makes your asthma better too.(the exercise part).  It might also help you sleep longer- 8 hours is a bit more normal. -j – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am taking Flovent, Serevent, Albuterol, Intal (when needed), and Theophylline. Ever since I’ve been taking them faithfully (around 2 years), I feel so tired….even when I’m not doing anything. My diet is kinda lousy; yet, it hasn’t changed 10 years. I averaged six hours of sleep. Don’t have a strenous job. Rarely exercise, but I do walk alot! Has anyone experienced fatique while on medications? If do, what was the culprit? Thanks.. * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

writes <snip do try to start an exercise program

The original post states they walk ‘a lot’.  If that means a brisk walk (e.g. raises the pulse) for half an hour, three or more times a week I would classify that as exercise.  IMHO Walking is underrated as exercise but can be really good if it’s on unmade footpaths (much better that roads or gym floors as each step is slightly different) and up and down hills.  And it doesn’t carry dangers (or they are greatly reduced) of over-use injuries, and on paths away from roads the air is better and the dangers from traffic go away. And walking is weight-bearing which helps prevent osteoporosis – something swimming doesn’t do though weights, gym works & cycling do. <snip — Surfer!

Response:

Mark: I’m 76 and for over 2 years have persistent (without attacks) old age asthma. In times of remission, all breathing parameters are OK. I’ve tried daily 20 min. exercises with a restricted air flow device for about 2 months……

Mark, I’m not sure what you expected this device to do for you.  Just because you make it harder for yourself to breathe does’nt mean you get less air.  Your respiratory center paces your breathing for you and it will make you breathe in such a way as to attain a particular CO2 level in your blood.  Putting a restrictive device in line with your respiaratory tract isn’t going to change anything. What you need to do is practice breathing in such a way as to sustain, over  a prolonged period of time,  a small shortage of air.  You need to do this often. Unless you actually feel like you’re not getting enough air while you’re doing this,  it’s not going to help your respiratory center accommodate to higher levels of CO2. If you want to knock Buteyko by all means, but make sure you’ve actually done the exercises properly before you do. …. with no effect, and then had the idea that asthmatics don’t need Buteyko, since they have plenty of hypoventilation, with (as follows from medical research) some positive results claimed by Buteyko (e.g., less sclerosis).

In early stage asthma CO2 is low, because of hyperventilation.  When asthma is very sever you get to a point where the lungs are so damaged that CO2 can’t get out and Oxygen can’t get in.  You’re right, here the asthmatic is hypoventilated from the point of view of the blood gases.  But there is a state in between where blood CO2 appears to be normal and Oxygen is low.  What happens  here is as follows.  As the disease progresses part of the lungs becomes so badly blocked that it stops being ventilated all together, but it still gets perfused with blood.   That part of the lung which is still functioning becomes hoplessly overventilated, as can be seen from ETCO2 (End tidal  CO2) studies.  The blood that leaves the lungs to get into the arteries therefore contains a mixture of blood from the overventilated and underventilated areas, which means that the CO2 may appear to be normal.  But the CO2 component from the functioning part is very low, and this is what causes it to go into bronchospasm.  So we take Ventolin to open it up.  But that does’nt actually cure anything.  At this stage Buteyko alone won’t help either.  You need to supplement with steroids until you can get your breathing under control and then gradually reverse the process by deliberate hypoventilation.  As you can imagine, by this stage this can be a very difficult process. Sticking a marble in your nostril won’t solve your problem. Peter Kolb Free information provided by grateful ex-asthmatics     http://www.wt.com.au/~pkolb/buteyko.htm

Response:

If you want to knock Buteyko by all means, but make sure you’ve actually done the exercises properly before you do.

So you are saying that I should try something that is dangerous and stupid before I warn others about it? Why don’t you jump off a cliff and then tell us whether or not it is dangerous? In early stage asthma CO2 is low, because of hyperventilation.  When asthma is very sever you get to a point where the lungs are so damaged that CO2 can’t get out and Oxygen can’t get in.

What are you talking about?  You really need to learn something about asthma instead of relying on the stuff the buteyko promoters fabricated. No electrons were harmed in the posting of this message.

Response:

Can I just mention that I tried Buteyko after seeing a documentary on the TV and found a course run by Sasha Stalmatski in York UK in Oct 99. I was on quite a lot of medication at the time, Flixotide, Ventolin, Atrovent, Serevent, Slo Phyllin etc. and before starting the course was extremely tired and could hardly walk upstairs.  I found the course very difficult but persevered.  One year on and I am only on Flixotide and Ventolin and although I visit hospital as an out patient regularly for bronchial/chest infections my asthma is under control and from having an asthma attack regularly every night 12 months ago I do not have any attacks at all now, I do have problems when I have a chest infection but the breathing exercises I learnt on the course have been very helpful and last year I had an attack of pluerisy and used the shallow breathing as I was rushed to hospital and it certainly worked for me.  By the way I have no medical training whatsoever so I cannot give medical advice it certainly didn’t cure me but it has made my life better, I can at least get up stairs now, I haven’t progressed to cycling yet but I am working on it.  I am a middle aged lady and able to do a full time job even if I do occasionally have to have time off for chest infections. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you want to knock Buteyko by all means, but make sure you’ve actually done the exercises properly before you do. So you are saying that I should try something that is dangerous and stupid before I warn others about it? Why don’t you jump off a cliff and then tell us whether or not it is dangerous? In early stage asthma CO2 is low, because of hyperventilation.  When asthma is very sever you get to a point where the lungs are so damaged that CO2 can’t get out and Oxygen can’t get in. What are you talking about?  You really need to learn something about asthma instead of relying on the stuff the buteyko promoters fabricated. No electrons were harmed in the posting of this message.

– Christine Varney Dept of Physics University of York YORK  YO10 5DD  UK tel: 44 (0) 1904 432261 fax: 44 (0) 1904 432214

Response:

I am taking Flovent, Serevent, Albuterol, Intal (when needed), and Theophylline. Ever since I’ve been taking them faithfully (around 2 years), I feel so tired….even when I’m not doing anything. My diet is kinda lousy; yet, it hasn’t changed 10 years. I averaged six hours of sleep. Don’t have a strenous job. Rarely exercise, but I do walk alot! Has anyone experienced fatique while on medications? If do, what was the culprit?

I find fatigue is the product of any single one or combination of the following: 1)      that time of the month 2)      being ill 3)      not getting enough sleep – I usually need 8-9 hours a night 4)      emotional upset like when I had to have two cats put to sleep last year – each time the response was to sleep for a couple of weeks, 16 hours a day or more at first. 5)      stress at work 6)      boredom 7)      prevarication – shall I do some decorating or get another ours sleep?      lack of exercise 9)      not drinking enough water especially if it’s hot – I’ve had a few night cramps 10)     eating too much too late – full stomach is not ideal before bed 11)     I go to sleep fine if I drink too much (e.g. more than 2-3 glasses wine) but then have disturbed dreams As you might imagine I’m a good sleeper!  Luckily too much time in bed gives me a bad back so there’s no danger (at the moment) of my developing a 24-hour per day habit. Before I got my medication (Pulmicort, and inhaled steroid) I *was* chronically tired due to lack of sleep and poor quality sleep.  Starting them made a new woman of me.  But I can’t find a new man to match! So I’ve got some new cats! so check (with your doctor) your asthma medication is working properly – especially at night.  When I’m bad I start snoring and give myself disturbed dreams and intermittent waking especially if I fall asleep with pillows as they prop up my head and close the airway (and are bad for my back & neck).  If you don’t have a peak flow meter get one and use it, drawing a chart of the morning & evening results (or put them in Excel!).  It should be pretty level – if it’s down in the mornings and responds to Intal it suggests you are possibly under-medicated in the steroid department. Also ask your partner (if you have one) how you sleep.  Lots of snoring could be part of, or an indication of, the problem.  Especially if you wake yourself up, or wake because you have almost stopped breathing (sleep apnoea). Good Luck PS Peter Kolb seems to reckon that everything is caused by CHVS. — Surfer!

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am taking Flovent, Serevent, Albuterol, Intal (when needed), and Theophylline. Ever since I’ve been taking them faithfully (around 2 years), I feel so tired….even when I’m not doing anything. My diet is kinda lousy; yet, it hasn’t changed 10 years. I averaged six hours of sleep. Don’t have a strenous job. Rarely exercise, but I do walk alot! Has anyone experienced fatique while on medications? If do, what was the culprit? Thanks.. Hello I can’t say whether or not your medications cause fatigue,  but what I can tell you is that fatigue, listlessness and inability to exercise are some of the very many symptoms of Chronic hyperventilation syndrome (CHVS).  This was first discovered by American Field Surgeon DaCosta in 1870 when he descibed this condition sufffered by American Soldiers under combat stress during the civil war.  While the mechanism by which such stress can cause chronic hyperventilation is well known and understood,  few doctors even seem to be aware of its existence.  This is in spite of the fact that prevalence in the community is between 6 and 11%  (References  have been given on an earlier occasion). There is a very logical treatment which has been developed in Russia for CHVS.  They found it so successful (and quite dramatically so) in the treatment of asthma,  that it has been brought to the west largely as a therapy that reverses the asthma condition.  But any of the symptoms of CHVS can be successfully treated with this therapy. Unfortunately, unlike with conventional medicine,  there are no magic bullets.  Buteyko therapy requires a lot of work and a lot of time, but at least it enables you to get your health back.   Many people have found that there is sufficient information on our web site to help you get rid of your asthma. Peter Kolb BSc(Eng),MSc(Med),CPEng(Biomed) BIOMEDICAL ENGINEER Free information provided by grateful ex-asthmatics

Mark: I’m 76 and for over 2 years have persistent (without attacks) old age asthma. In times of remission, all breathing parameters are OK. I’ve tried daily 20 min. exercises with a restricted air flow device for about 2 months – with no effect, and then had the idea that asthmatics don’t need Buteyko, since they have plenty of hypoventilation, with (as follows from medical research) some positive results claimed by Buteyko (e.g., less sclerosis). – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –    http://www.wt.com.au/~pkolb/buteyko.htm

Response:

I am taking Flovent, Serevent, Albuterol, Intal (when needed), and Theophylline. Ever since I’ve been taking them faithfully (around 2 years), I feel so tired….even when I’m not doing anything. My diet is kinda lousy; yet, it hasn’t changed 10 years. I averaged six hours of sleep. Don’t have a strenous job. Rarely exercise, but I do walk alot! Has anyone experienced fatique while on medications? If do, what was the culprit? Thanks.. * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

I am taking Flovent, Serevent, Albuterol, Intal (when needed), and Theophylline. Ever since I’ve been taking them faithfully (around 2 years), I feel so tired….even when I’m not doing anything. My diet is kinda lousy; yet, it hasn’t changed 10 years. I averaged six hours of sleep. Don’t have a strenous job. Rarely exercise, but I do walk alot! Has anyone experienced fatique while on medications? If do, what was the culprit? Thanks..

Hello I can’t say whether or not your medications cause fatigue,  but what I can tell you is that fatigue, listlessness and inability to exercise are some of the very many symptoms of Chronic hyperventilation syndrome (CHVS).  This was first discovered by American Field Surgeon DaCosta in 1870 when he descibed this condition sufffered by American Soldiers under combat stress during the civil war.  While the mechanism by which such stress can cause chronic hyperventilation is well known and understood,  few doctors even seem to be aware of its existence.  This is in spite of the fact that prevalence in the community is between 6 and 11%  (References  have been given on an earlier occasion).   There is a very logical treatment which has been developed in Russia for CHVS.  They found it so successful (and quite dramatically so) in the treatment of asthma,  that it has been brought to the west largely as a therapy that reverses the asthma condition.  But any of the symptoms of CHVS can be successfully treated with this therapy. Unfortunately, unlike with conventional medicine,  there are no magic bullets.  Buteyko therapy requires a lot of work and a lot of time, but at least it enables you to get your health back.   Many people have found that there is sufficient information on our web site to help you get rid of your asthma. Peter Kolb BSc(Eng),MSc(Med),CPEng(Biomed) BIOMEDICAL ENGINEER Free information provided by grateful ex-asthmatics     http://www.wt.com.au/~pkolb/buteyko.htm

Response:

I am taking Flovent, Serevent, Albuterol, Intal (when needed), and Theophylline. Ever since I’ve been taking them faithfully (around 2 years), I feel so tired….even when I’m not doing anything. My diet is kinda lousy; yet, it hasn’t changed 10 years. I averaged six hours of sleep. Don’t have a strenous job. Rarely exercise, but I do walk alot!

Try sleeping an extra 1/2 hour.  Most people do not get the amount of sleep they need. No electrons were harmed in the posting of this message.

Response:

I can’t say whether or not your medications cause fatigue,  but what I can tell you is that fatigue, listlessness and inability to exercise are some of the very many symptoms of Chronic hyperventilation syndrome (CHVS).

Can you name something that is not a symptom of this imaginary ailment? BTW, can you provide any current medical references that support your diagnosis? And how about providing your qualifications to dispense medical advice? No electrons were harmed in the posting of this message.

Response:

Question:

I have never been diagnosed with depression.  I have panic disorder.  I am not happy with the side effects of the antidepressant, Effexor XR.  I am not happy about my energy level and lack of emotions.  Even though I’m not happy about these symptoms, I don’t feel depressed.  I feel like the med is not letting me be me.  It’s not an ego thing.  It’s just feel that I need more energy and emotions to get back into the midst of life. Tony

Why not skip the ADs and just take Xanax XR or Klonopin? The only problem is tapering off of Effexor but it can be done, obviously. Philip — The charter is available at:

Question:

In article <CBCDB80EF44270BC.26D7666505F55084.E728EE952AB90…@lp.airnews.net

, "Mark

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -and Kristy" <mearn…@airmail.net

wrote: Hey!  I’m new here, have schizophrenia, and I guess the reason I sought it out is cause I’m having negative symptoms for the first time.  I guess I thought it was related to the quitting smoking, but this may be the price I pay to live. This morning, and for the past four mornings, I didn’t get out of bed.  I missed school and three scheduled interviews.  Could this be seasonal, cyclical or something?  It is really the first time this has ever happened to me.  I was thinking about the word, "apathy."  But, I don’t think that’s it.  I still feel and care.  I just don’t have much energy.  I’m also paranoid about school right now.  I feel like they are telling me lies. I wonder if Y’all know what I mean?  Sounds like it.  I’ve never been in a support group for schizophrenics.  I’ve read books.  Blechy!  They make it sound worse than what I have experienced. . . . So, do you think I’m having negative symptoms?  Sure have had a lot of positive ones.  Voices and what not. Well, sorry to ramble on this way. Yours Truly, Kristy

My problem with not smoking is that I start to get TOO energized. I smoke a Cig and I feel (like crap) back to normal. I want to quit soon. Maybe for my birthday. sp

Response:

Risperdal also badly effects my respiratory system. The main reason I won’t take it. No point in being free of sz symptoms if you are dead. <chuckle

You had this too? when i told my doc that i found it hard to breathe, he was very dismissive that it was NOT the medication causing that. I was put on risperdal also. My lackage of energy increased on the meds and found myself sleeping way too much. When i was outside, walking up hills became very difficult to do, would quickly get out of breath. Before and after the meds…i am in physically good shape and find no problems walking up the hills.

Response:

Glad to you hear you are doing O.K. without regular medication.  I thought Risperidone caused weight gain but not as severely as some other anti-psychotics. I also tried Seroquel but noticed a return of my positive symptoms and quickly switched back to Risperidone.  I’ve also heard that Seroquel has few side-effects.  Hopefully it will be available in Australia soon and you can give it a try. Frank. Dan Coyote, Jon Steiner, Fritz on the fritz, BWAG!, Morpheus <Manage…@nospam.com

wrote in message

news:oBei4.52$643.2459@nsw.nnrp.telstra.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Frank wrote in message … Well I’ve stopped wearing my engineering ring because it’s simply too

tight

to get on and off without half removing my finger.  I have to get it resized.  I think this is due to weight gain though not drug-related swelling.  I can still get my wedding ring on, thank goodness. The main side-effects I’ve noticed from Risperidone are a slowed-down or sedated feeling, weight gain and a sexual side-effect when I was on

higher

doses.  Yes I realize it is very personal to mention this but I feel

people

should be open and informed about these things.  I think I’ve read that

the

sexual side-effect only occurs in a small number of people (just lucky I guess). Frank. Many people have mentioned a lessening of libido while on medication. It seems many if not most sz meds affect the sex drive. The weight gain problem of Risperdal was one of the reasons which

persuaded

me to stop taking drugs altogether. It is one of the more virulent meds in promoting weight gain, so I have

been

told by many sources. It was more important to loose weight because of the associated health problems than to worry about the problems of sz *in my case*. Risperdal also badly effects my respiratory system. The main reason I

won’t

take it. No point in being free of sz symptoms if you are dead. <chuckle I have stelizine as a back up if I need it but so far so good. If at all possible I will not take stelizine because of the very real dangers of developing TD…more so than with the newer drugs. I’ve been on the stuff for over 17 years, on and off. And as you may know, the longer you take some of the older drugs, the greater the danger of developing TD. The quantity is also a determining factor. I am waiting for seroquol <sp to come onto the Australian market. Many people say there isn’t the weight gain problem. BTW, it would have been "nice" if the initial "psychiatrist" had mentioned the long term dangers of stelizine. But this was way back in a time long ago when sufferers were not treated with respect. Has it really changed that much today, I sometimes wonder. Many, if not most of us, are between a rock and a hard place. Regards, Jon

Response:

Ditto to the Risperdal thing (I prefer to call it Risperidone).  I started on 3 mg./day and am now down to 1 mg./day.  I found it took a long time completely eliminate my positive symptoms so don’t expect any quick miracles. Frank. Mark and Kristy <mearn…@airmail.net

wrote in message

news:737B2E48E2248BD7.7AC8E6653E7646CA.939762A89352B8BB@lp.airnews.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Wow!  This is interesting!  I’m on the risperdal, too.  Could that be related? Your friend, Kristy

Response:

Frank wrote in message …

Well I’ve stopped wearing my engineering ring because it’s simply too tight to get on and off without half removing my finger.  I have to get it resized.  I think this is due to weight gain though not drug-related swelling.  I can still get my wedding ring on, thank goodness. The main side-effects I’ve noticed from Risperidone are a slowed-down or sedated feeling, weight gain and a sexual side-effect when I was on higher doses.  Yes I realize it is very personal to mention this but I feel people should be open and informed about these things.  I think I’ve read that the sexual side-effect only occurs in a small number of people (just lucky I guess). Frank.

Many people have mentioned a lessening of libido while on medication. It seems many if not most sz meds affect the sex drive. The weight gain problem of Risperdal was one of the reasons which persuaded me to stop taking drugs altogether. It is one of the more virulent meds in promoting weight gain, so I have been told by many sources. It was more important to loose weight because of the associated health problems than to worry about the problems of sz *in my case*. Risperdal also badly effects my respiratory system. The main reason I won’t take it. No point in being free of sz symptoms if you are dead. <chuckle

I have stelizine as a back up if I need it but so far so good. If at all possible I will not take stelizine because of the very real dangers of developing TD…more so than with the newer drugs. I’ve been on the stuff for over 17 years, on and off. And as you may know, the longer you take some of the older drugs, the greater the danger of developing TD. The quantity is also a determining factor. I am waiting for seroquol <sp

to come onto the Australian market. Many

people say there isn’t the weight gain problem. BTW, it would have been "nice" if the initial "psychiatrist" had mentioned the long term dangers of stelizine. But this was way back in a time long ago when sufferers were not treated with respect. Has it really changed that much today, I sometimes wonder. Many, if not most of us, are between a rock and a hard place. Regards, Jon

Response:

Wow, 400 hours of sick time.  You win this contest hands down.  You must have a very understanding employer, like me.  Do you find you are able to distinguish between the negative symptoms of your illness and the sedative effect of Risperidone?  I am never quite sure which one is causing my "negative-like" symptoms, especially when I was on a higher dose of Risperidone. Hang in there. Frank. pete_l <pete_lNOpeS…@altavista.com.invalid

wrote in message

news:37fa504d.1655f846@usw-ex0106-046.remarq.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Hi Frank! I had 400 hours off sick last year.  I turned in at 8:30am and worked 9 hours straight today.  I take 4mg/risperidone day.  If you get a heavy negative period it stays around for weeks.  It is not just one day now and then.  Plus I found If I am getting pissed off and leaned on at work the negatives are harder to work through.  If that happens to you , kick someone. Regards, Peter * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network

*

The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

Well I’ve stopped wearing my engineering ring because it’s simply too tight to get on and off without half removing my finger.  I have to get it resized.  I think this is due to weight gain though not drug-related swelling.  I can still get my wedding ring on, thank goodness. The main side-effects I’ve noticed from Risperidone are a slowed-down or sedated feeling, weight gain and a sexual side-effect when I was on higher doses.  Yes I realize it is very personal to mention this but I feel people should be open and informed about these things.  I think I’ve read that the sexual side-effect only occurs in a small number of people (just lucky I guess). Frank. Dan Coyote, Jon Steiner, Fritz on the fritz, BWAG!, Morpheus <Manage…@nospam.com

wrote in message

news:wZPh4.165$%J2.8086@nsw.nnrp.telstra.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

<enter Jon Frank wrote in message … In my case I’m only on 1 mg./day of Risperidone so I would think any negative symptoms I feel are from my illness and not the medication. Side-effects should be pretty minimal at this dose. Have you ever experienced swelling of the limbs etc as a result of taking Risperadal? Jon

Response:

Yes I found that once a lot of supports were in place and I was on the risperadol I could wake up on time a lot more.  I don’t spend so much time in bed.  I am way more active now. Frank Levy <frank…@netcom.ca

wrote in message

news:Snmh4.205249$5r2.561603@tor-nn1.netcom.ca… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Has anyone found anything that helps with negative symptoms?  I am on Risperidone (1 mg./day) and in the package liner information it claims to help with negative symptoms but I don’t see much evidence of that.  It has my positive symptoms under control though so that’s something to be

thankful

for.  My negative symptoms have diminished somewhat over the past year or so.  I wonder if I can expect them to continue to diminish?

Response:

Frank, It is early days, but it seems to be doing the trick for me.  I hope it works for you too – good luck! Tony http://come.to/theloonybin "Frank" <frank…@netcom.ca

wrote in message

news:PgOh4.206678$5r2.563431@tor-nn1.netcom.ca… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

So you find Seroquel works for negative symptoms as well as positive?  I tried Seroquel when I was recovering from my psychosis and my psychotic symptoms returned so I quickly switched back to Risperidone.  Maybe I’ll

ask > my psychiatrist about Seroquel for negative symptoms.  Thanks for the tip. > Frank. > Vicky and Tony <vickyandt…@cwcom.net

wrote in message

> news:XCAh4.693$M47.11176@news1-hme0… > > Seroquel seems to be working for me Frank.  It was recommended to me as I

am very intolerant of psychiatric medications and so far I am happy with

it.

No real side effects (which is unusual for me) apart from a dry mouth – but that is easily cured Tony http://come.to/theloonybin

Response:

<enter Jon

Frank wrote in message …

In my case I’m only on 1 mg./day of Risperidone so I would think any negative symptoms I feel are from my illness and not the medication. Side-effects should be pretty minimal at this dose.

Have you ever experienced swelling of the limbs etc as a result of taking Risperadal? Jon

Response:

Hey!  I’m new here, have schizophrenia, and I guess the reason I sought it out is cause I’m having negative symptoms for the first time.  I guess I thought it was related to the quitting smoking, but this may be the price I pay to live. This morning, and for the past four mornings, I didn’t get out of bed.  I missed school and three scheduled interviews.  Could this be seasonal, cyclical or something?  It is really the first time this has ever happened to me.  I was thinking about the word, "apathy."  But, I don’t think that’s it.  I still feel and care.  I just don’t have much energy.  I’m also paranoid about school right now.  I feel like they are telling me lies. I wonder if Y’all know what I mean?  Sounds like it.  I’ve never been in a support group for schizophrenics.  I’ve read books.  Blechy!  They make it sound worse than what I have experienced. . . . So, do you think I’m having negative symptoms?  Sure have had a lot of positive ones.  Voices and what not. Well, sorry to ramble on this way. Yours Truly, Kristy

Response:

Wow!  This is interesting!  I’m on the risperdal, too.  Could that be related? Your friend, Kristy

Response:

Hi Kristy, Welcome to the group.  What you’re describing sounds like negative symptoms to me.  For myself lack of motivation is the biggest problem with a bit of apathy thrown in.  That seems to be what you are describing.  I also have trouble getting up at a specific time (especially early in the morning).  I usually am able to pull it off for something important like a meeting at work or a meeting with a client, something like that.  Where I have difficulty is on those regular everyday work days when nothing special is planned.  I find it really tough to get going on those days.  I used to find it hard to get ready to go out with friends or family as well but that seems to have diminished.  It’s mainly work related now. If your positive symptoms are disappearing I wouldn’t be surprised if the negatives are rolling on in.  I haven’t really found anything that helps although Tony has reported that Seroquel is doing the job for him (he just started on it recently).  Drinking coffee seems to help a little.  Of course you have to be out of bed to do that. Hope you feel better, Frank. Mark and Kristy <mearn…@airmail.net

wrote in message

news:CBCDB80EF44270BC.26D7666505F55084.E728EE952AB90237@lp.airnews.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Hey!  I’m new here, have schizophrenia, and I guess the reason I sought it out is cause I’m having negative symptoms for the first time.  I guess I thought it was related to the quitting smoking, but this may be the price

I

pay to live. This morning, and for the past four mornings, I didn’t get out of bed.  I missed school and three scheduled interviews.  Could this be seasonal, cyclical or something?  It is really the first time this has ever happened to me.  I was thinking about the word, "apathy."  But, I don’t think

that’s

it.  I still feel and care.  I just don’t have much energy.  I’m also paranoid about school right now.  I feel like they are telling me lies. I wonder if Y’all know what I mean?  Sounds like it.  I’ve never been in a support group for schizophrenics.  I’ve read books.  Blechy!  They make it sound worse than what I have experienced. . . . So, do you think I’m

having

negative symptoms?  Sure have had a lot of positive ones.  Voices and what not. Well, sorry to ramble on this way. Yours Truly, Kristy

Response:

Well here I am again.  Home from work on a sick day.  I couldn’t get out of bed until 11:30 due to negative symptoms.  The only thing that finally got me out was to see what was new on the newsgroup.  Still I’m not doing too badly.  This is the first sick day I’ve taken in 2000.  Although I have taken a couple of vacation days.  I had over 200 hours of sick time last year.  For that I feel really guilty.  I’m hoping to do much better this year.  Sometimes I think I’m just lazy but I don’t really think that can be the case.  I very rarely missed any sick time before my sz. Has anyone found anything that helps with negative symptoms?  I am on Risperidone (1 mg./day) and in the package liner information it claims to help with negative symptoms but I don’t see much evidence of that.  It has my positive symptoms under control though so that’s something to be thankful for.  My negative symptoms have diminished somewhat over the past year or so.  I wonder if I can expect them to continue to diminish? I’m sure glad to have this computer.  It’s given me hours of enjoyment and allowed me to access this newsgroup. Frank.

Response:

In article <Snmh4.205249$5r2.561…@tor-nn1.netcom.ca

,

  "Frank Levy" <frank…@netcom.ca

wrote:

  I wonder if I can expect them to continue to diminish?

I’m sure glad to have this computer.  It’s given me hours of enjoyment and allowed me to access this newsgroup. Frank.

— It is not laziness but more like a vacuum or a rut, being in a rut was described as a grave with both ends kicked out, but I know how hard it is to get it in gear and doing simple things like keeping a room clean or maintaining things, I think we just quit like many who get into those depression ruts and stay there as a result of trauma or some other cause, but I have often wished that someone would kick me in the rear to get started again, since it can be tough to get motivated and the batteries recharged. I also think we lose focus or direction and things being difficult that use to come easy in decision making or thinking with common sense, knowing I was an accident just waiting to happen or a walking disaster and lost that capacity to care about people and understanding things for what they are and only seeing what we imagine things to be, reading more between the lines than what is black and white and often misunderstand motives etc., but for a year or so i just wanted to find a cave and stay there in just losing that will to keep going, having no feeling for anything or anybody, just got to roll the stone away and come out of the tomb which is a process and not a project, little by little and one day at a time in changing the direction of things. Crazy Lou http://www.grizzadam.com/ Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

Response:

I know where you are coming from when you speak of reading (too much) between the lines and misinterpreting motives, etc.  This was one of my main problems when I was psychotic.  I thought everything someone said had an alternate meaning (something rude or negative) when it wasn’t intended that way at all.  I’m much better at this now. Frank. Grizz <loco…@worldnet.att.net

wrote in message

news:8655fs$l08$1@nnrp1.deja.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

In article <Snmh4.205249$5r2.561…@tor-nn1.netcom.ca,   "Frank Levy" <frank…@netcom.ca wrote:   I wonder if I can expect them to continue to diminish? I’m sure glad to have this computer.  It’s given me hours of enjoyment

and

allowed me to access this newsgroup. Frank. — It is not laziness but more like a vacuum or a rut, being in a rut was described as a grave with both ends kicked out, but I know how hard it is to get it in gear and doing simple things like keeping a room clean or maintaining things, I think we just quit like many who get into those depression ruts and stay there as a result of trauma or some other cause, but I have often wished that someone would kick me in the rear to get started again, since it can be tough to get motivated and the batteries recharged. I also think we lose focus or direction and things being difficult that use to come easy in decision making or thinking with common sense, knowing I was an accident just waiting to happen or a walking disaster and lost that capacity to care about people and understanding things for what they are and only seeing what we imagine things to be, reading more between the lines than what is black and white and often misunderstand motives etc., but for a year or so i just wanted to find a cave and stay there in just losing that will to keep going, having no feeling for anything or anybody, just got to roll the stone away and come out of the tomb which is a process and not a project, little by little and one day at a time in changing the direction of things. Crazy Lou http://www.grizzadam.com/ Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

Response:

Seroquel seems to be working for me Frank.  It was recommended to me as I am very intolerant of psychiatric medications and so far I am happy with it. No real side effects (which is unusual for me) apart from a dry mouth – but that is easily cured Tony http://come.to/theloonybin

Response:

In article <Snmh4.205249$5r2.561…@tor-nn1.netcom.ca

, "Frank Levy"

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -<frank…@netcom.ca

wrote: Well here I am again.  Home from work on a sick day.  I couldn’t get out of bed until 11:30 due to negative symptoms.  The only thing that finally got me out was to see what was new on the newsgroup.  Still I’m not doing too badly.  This is the first sick day I’ve taken in 2000.  Although I have taken a couple of vacation days.  I had over 200 hours of sick time last year.  For that I feel really guilty.  I’m hoping to do much better this year.  Sometimes I think I’m just lazy but I don’t really think that can be the case.  I very rarely missed any sick time before my sz. Has anyone found anything that helps with negative symptoms?  I am on Risperidone (1 mg./day) and in the package liner information it claims to help with negative symptoms but I don’t see much evidence of that.  It has my positive symptoms under control though so that’s something to be thankful for.  My negative symptoms have diminished somewhat over the past year or so.  I wonder if I can expect them to continue to diminish? I’m sure glad to have this computer.  It’s given me hours of enjoyment and allowed me to access this newsgroup. Frank.

I’ve missed allot of work this last year because of Neg symptoms. I’ve been diagnosed with SZ for 20 years, but I’ve never had Neg symptoms before, so this is new to me. I’ve basically been in bed for a year. I drag myself to work, then come home and get in bed. I don’t go out, or do anything. Like you the one thing I do get out of bed for is to get on this newsgroup. Actually I think the meds are what’s causing the "lethargy" Neg symptoms. It’s gotten a little better lately, but still pretty bad. If you figure out an answer, tell me too. SP

Response:

It sure helps to reduce the isolation when you can’t get out!  And it’s something to look forward to! I think that it would be interesting to study the effect of the internet newsgroups and chat rooms on the psychiatric client community.  I imagine it’s opened up communication for a lot of people who previously could only ‘open up’ on the p-doc’s couch. Even a group as socially hidden as the schizophrenic community now finds itself able to share, communicate, and offer support.  What a difference! The ‘Global Village’ idiots rise up, band together,  and discover that they are people, too!  (I mean that in a nice way!  ;-)   ) Love, Strength, and Courage. Frank Levy <frank…@netcom.ca

wrote in message

news:Snmh4.205249$5r2.561603@tor-nn1.netcom.ca… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Well here I am again.  Home from work on a sick day.  I couldn’t get out

of

bed until 11:30 due to negative symptoms.  The only thing that finally got me out was to see what was new on the newsgroup.  Still I’m not doing too badly.  This is the first sick day I’ve taken in 2000.  Although I have taken a couple of vacation days.  I had over 200 hours of sick time last year.  For that I feel really guilty.  I’m hoping to do much better this year.  Sometimes I think I’m just lazy but I don’t really think that can

be

the case.  I very rarely missed any sick time before my sz. Has anyone found anything that helps with negative symptoms?  I am on Risperidone (1 mg./day) and in the package liner information it claims to help with negative symptoms but I don’t see much evidence of that.  It has my positive symptoms under control though so that’s something to be

thankful

for.  My negative symptoms have diminished somewhat over the past year or so.  I wonder if I can expect them to continue to diminish? I’m sure glad to have this computer.  It’s given me hours of enjoyment and allowed me to access this newsgroup. Frank.

Response:

Hi Frank! I had 400 hours off sick last year.  I turned in at 8:30am and worked 9 hours straight today.  I take 4mg/risperidone day.  If you get a heavy negative period it stays around for weeks.  It is not just one day now and then.  Plus I found If I am getting pissed off and leaned on at work the negatives are harder to work through.  If that happens to you , kick someone. Regards, Peter * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

So you find Seroquel works for negative symptoms as well as positive?  I tried Seroquel when I was recovering from my psychosis and my psychotic symptoms returned so I quickly switched back to Risperidone.  Maybe I’ll ask my psychiatrist about Seroquel for negative symptoms.  Thanks for the tip. Frank. Vicky and Tony <vickyandt…@cwcom.net

wrote in message

news:XCAh4.693$M47.11176@news1-hme0… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Seroquel seems to be working for me Frank.  It was recommended to me as I

am

very intolerant of psychiatric medications and so far I am happy with it. No real side effects (which is unusual for me) apart from a dry mouth –

but

that is easily cured Tony http://come.to/theloonybin

Response:

Yea, the meds can definitely cause negative-like symptoms as well. Sometimes it’s hard to know which symptoms are from the illness and which are from the meds.  I’ve asked my psychiatrist how you can tell whether your "negative-like" symptoms are caused by the illness or the meds and she always says "I don’t know". In my case I’m only on 1 mg./day of Risperidone so I would think any negative symptoms I feel are from my illness and not the medication. Side-effects should be pretty minimal at this dose. Anyway, hang in there and I hope you feel better.  At least we still make it to work most of the time, right.  There’s something positive there! Frank. Spiritus <spiri…@sanctus.org

wrote in message

news:spiritus-ya02408000R2001000314400001@news.supernews.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

In article <Snmh4.205249$5r2.561…@tor-nn1.netcom.ca, "Frank Levy" <frank…@netcom.ca wrote: Well here I am again.  Home from work on a sick day.  I couldn’t get out

of

bed until 11:30 due to negative symptoms.  The only thing that finally

got

me out was to see what was new on the newsgroup.  Still I’m not doing

too

badly.  This is the first sick day I’ve taken in 2000.  Although I have taken a couple of vacation days.  I had over 200 hours of sick time last year.  For that I feel really guilty.  I’m hoping to do much better this year.  Sometimes I think I’m just lazy but I don’t really think that can

be

the case.  I very rarely missed any sick time before my sz. Has anyone found anything that helps with negative symptoms?  I am on Risperidone (1 mg./day) and in the package liner information it claims

to

help with negative symptoms but I don’t see much evidence of that.  It

has

my positive symptoms under control though so that’s something to be

thankful

for.  My negative symptoms have diminished somewhat over the past year

or

so.  I wonder if I can expect them to continue to diminish? I’m sure glad to have this computer.  It’s given me hours of enjoyment

and

allowed me to access this newsgroup. Frank. I’ve missed allot of work this last year because of Neg symptoms. I’ve

been

diagnosed with SZ for 20 years, but I’ve never had Neg symptoms before, so this is new to me. I’ve basically been in bed for a year. I drag myself to work, then come home and get in bed. I don’t go out, or do anything. Like you the one thing I do get out of bed for is to get on this newsgroup. Actually I think the meds are what’s causing the "lethargy" Neg symptoms. It’s gotten a little better lately, but still pretty bad. If you figure

out

an answer, tell me too. SP

Response:

My negative symptoms went away for a day.  I got lots of laundry done.  I felt energized and motivated. The only recent change, that might be a cause, is that I have been taking a Probiotic called Culturelle for three days. It is much too soon to draw any conclusions. Nothing I have ever previously done has helped with negative symptoms, so this effect is a surprise.

Response:

newer meds helped me get more work done less sleeping all day — Peter Timusk B.Math Just trying to stay linear www3.sympatico.ca/ptimusk www.webpagex.org "Cubit" <n…@no.not

wrote in message

news:E8sUb.20467$yD.4227@newssvr27.news.prodigy.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

My negative symptoms went away for a day.  I got lots of laundry done.  I felt energized and motivated. The only recent change, that might be a cause, is that I have been taking

a

Probiotic called Culturelle for three days. It is much too soon to draw any conclusions. Nothing I have ever previously done has helped with negative symptoms, so this effect is a surprise.

Response:

Question:

ImJustOne wrote:

If you’re not happy with your body, fix that.  If you’re not employed, get employed.  If you don’t like your clothes, fix that too.  If you can’t talk to people, force yourself to learn.  You can allow yourself to feel depressed and like complaining sometimes, but don’t make it chronic. Focus more on things you can do right now, and have some contempt for long term planning.  (And especially plans for tomorrow, rather than right now.) A positive post like this is like a good shot of caffeine in the morning.

You mean you go back to bed if there’s no positive posts?

Response:

The Putt King wrote:

About 4 years ago I decided to do what you suggested. I haven’t made any attempt whatsoever to find a girlfriend in that time. I decided to concentrate on enjoying my life and doing all the stuff I wanted.

How about if you can’t enjoy anything? I’m getting the feeling that my current Effexor dose won’t be enough to get through this winter. This windy, grey weather today makes my mood dive…

Response:

ImJustOne wrote:

If you’re not happy with your body, fix that.  If you’re not employed, get employed.  If you don’t like your clothes, fix that too.  If you can’t talk to people, force yourself to learn.  You can allow yourself to feel depressed and like complaining sometimes, but don’t make it chronic. Focus more on things you can do right now, and have some contempt for long term planning.  (And especially plans for tomorrow, rather than right now.)

HTF does one learn to talk???

Response:

None wrote:

The Putt King wrote: About 4 years ago I decided to do what you suggested. I haven’t made any attempt whatsoever to find a girlfriend in that time. I decided to concentrate on enjoying my life and doing all the stuff I wanted. How about if you can’t enjoy anything? I’m getting the feeling that my current Effexor dose won’t be enough to get through this winter. This windy, grey weather today makes my mood dive.

Build something. Do-it-Yourself carpentry! Maybe if I hit my thumbs enough times with a hammer, I’d be in a pain that might take my mind off my emotional misery.

Response:

"William P" <will(dot)p…@sympatico.ca

wrote in message

news:Xns940D5B5C56726willdotpatsympaticod@206.172.150.13…  

In our current culture, shorts seem like kind of a no-no on men when you’re dressing remotely to impress anyway.  Fine for being comfortable or playing sports, but it doesn’t particularly make you look good, even with nice legs.  (Endurance weenie shaving culture aside?;) )

I guess not, hence the negative reaction. I suppose I was thinking as a bloke, not a woman. Men like to see the bare legs of women so I figured that women would like to see the bare legs of men. Sad

Response:

"None" <i-dont-want-to-receive-any-ma…@swissonline.ch

wrote in message

news:3f82f6a4$1@news.swissonline.ch…

ImJustOne wrote: If you’re not happy with your body, fix that.  If you’re not employed, get employed.  If you don’t like your clothes, fix that too.  If you can’t talk to people, force yourself to learn.  You can allow yourself

to

feel depressed and like complaining sometimes, but don’t make it

chronic.

Focus more on things you can do right now, and have some contempt for long term planning.  (And especially plans for tomorrow, rather than right now.) HTF does one learn to talk???

I didn’t type that.

Response:

"None" <i-dont-want-to-receive-any-ma…@swissonline.ch

wrote in message

news:3f82f612@news.swissonline.ch…

ImJustOne wrote: If you’re not happy with your body, fix that.  If you’re not employed, get employed.  If you don’t like your clothes, fix that too.  If you can’t talk to people, force yourself to learn.  You can allow yourself

to

feel depressed and like complaining sometimes, but don’t make it

chronic.

Focus more on things you can do right now, and have some contempt for long term planning.  (And especially plans for tomorrow, rather than right now.) A positive post like this is like a good shot of caffeine in the

morning.

You mean you go back to bed if there’s no positive posts?

lol!

Response:

"Sad" <S…@btinternet.com

wrote in message

<news:blplee$t8$1@titan.btinternet.com

… Give up? Yeah damn right! I’ve tried with women, I really have. I’ve tried being witty, intelligent and thoughtful. I’ve even tried appealing to their baser instincts by deliberately wearing shorts in order to show my legs off. An attempt to show bare male skin in a sexual way (I’m desperate!) but what did I get? Either indifference or comments like ‘His legs look yukky’.

Well, at least I’ve never had this problem. On several occasions I’ve actually considered entering one of those "sexy legs" contests that clubs sometimes have, but I’ve never done it because I figure my height and nerdy appearance would subtract too much from what I’m sure wouldn’t be an objective evaluation of my legs. Or maybe I was just too shy to enter any of them. Virgo Cluster (who just finished the grading he needed to do today)   "[10 Greats] (#9) Peter the Great (1672-1725), czar of Russia:    brilliant but cruel despot, who had his own son tortured to    death. After a lifetime of alcoholism, he died of syphilitic    dementia." << Karl Shaw, "The Mammoth Book of Tasteless    Lists", Carroll & Graf Publishers, 1998, p. 279

Response:

whats with the weird names? wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

sports clubs; i am a member of a gliding club and a yacht club. The gliding club is  agood place to talk technical with a whole bunch of mainly older fellas who like relaying their near death experiences national records and glider technicalities, no women but i didnt join it for that. Sailing club is a good place to talk technical about yachts, near death experiences, and how close you cam to winning the national title in your class but still came 30th. few women(blokey atmosphere) but i go there to sail anyway. I dont know why i cant strike up a conversation there easily. i dont feel i have anything to contribute so, yeah, basically i cant think of anything to say. i.e no near death experiences, no national titles. I also think that my shyness can be seen from the outside as a kind of arrogance. as if im above "you lot". so i dont often get approached. Reasons i might be shy now ( i used to be the class clown in primary school) bullied at high school High school was an all boys school once good friends bailed on me been told im a "know all" on more than one occasion been harrassed after speaking in front of the whole school ( it was a memorial as well) made to feel self conscious about my lack of GF (s) First date girl stood me up during the date( i mean the very first date, three weeks ago) second "first date" made me realise how incompetent i am at trying to look intelligent and confident and knowing how to show a girl a good time.

OMB, you seem to have a parallel life to mine until the first date part. Unfortunately, I stood up my first date. -M

Response:

firstly if you are reading out my profile, that isnt my profile. i certainly havent written that i am a dork, i dont play guitar and never claimed i have. http://soulmatesworld.match.com/match/mt.cfm?pg=display_profile&id=MG… sorry i may have mislead about the "match.com" wwtwn? "Insert Pseudonym Here" <i…@iphfakeaddr.com

wrote in message

news:Xns940BD0B45145iphiphfakeaddrcom@68.12.19.6… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

"whats with the weird names?" <n…@ihug.co.nz.no.spam wrote in news:blo4gn$tae$1@lust.ihug.co.nz: Thats the thing though, i have a good job well paid. im satisfied with my body. i enjoy doing interesting things on every weekend (sailing, mtbing, gliding) i’m intelligent (bugger the modesty). (match.com profile : Yotie) I am a member of two sports clubs which i really Hmm…. Okay, this going to be a fairly harsh critique of your ad.  If you’re sensitive, tune out now. Your tagline reads: " i might act like a dork somtimes but i can make a real woman feel like a real woman if you would just give me a chance " Two problems. First, you call yourself a dork.  That’s only cute when cute young women do it. Second, "make a real woman feel like a real woman" might as well read, "You think you’re a real woman?  You ain’t shit until you hop into my bed and PROVE it!"  Maybe not what you had in mind, but that’s what a lot of women are going to take from it.  It sounds like a sexual challenge. " turn-ons: No Answer sense of humor: No Answer " It looks weird that these have no answer.  Surely you have selection criteria and a sense of humor? " i like to go to parties clubs concerts and just have as much fun as posiable i like playing my guitar alot love singing and i love to just get out and do stuff to have fun and live life sweet " True or not: 1) it sounds like you’re bullshitting, and 2) it sounds like all the other ads from guys (who are bullshitting). " im looking for a girl to no complain alot " This makes it sound like you’re looking for a woman to be barefoot, pregnant, and in the kitchen makin’ you a sammich. how do i learn how to talk to people? Get into situations where you’re forced to.  Teach, volunteer, get a part time job as a cashier, etc.  Eventually you’ll learn to stop giving a shit how you come off.  If you come off great, great.  If you come off terribly, so what?  There’s so many people in the world, your chances of making a good impression on some of them are pretty high as long: 1) you’re willing to let it, and 2) your sample size exceeds a single digit.

Response:

"Sad" <S…@btinternet.com

wrote in news:bltlrp$shh$1@titan.btinternet.com:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

"Virgo Cluster" <gamma_n…@yahoo.com wrote in message news:dd95baf2.0310051345.3bed2b48@posting.google.com… Well, at least I’ve never had this problem. On several occasions I’ve actually considered entering one of those "sexy legs" contests that clubs sometimes have, but I’ve never done it because I figure my height and nerdy appearance would subtract too much from what I’m sure wouldn’t be an objective evaluation of my legs. Or maybe I was just too shy to enter any of them. I don’t think I could ever parade my legs like that! I don’t think they look *that* bad to be honest, a bit white perhaps but I’m not sure why I got such a negative reaction. No more shorts for me anyway

In our current culture, shorts seem like kind of a no-no on men when you’re dressing remotely to impress anyway.  Fine for being comfortable or playing sports, but it doesn’t particularly make you look good, even with nice legs.  (Endurance weenie shaving culture aside?;) )

Response:

"Virgo Cluster" <gamma_n…@yahoo.com

wrote in message

news:dd95baf2.0310051345.3bed2b48@posting.google.com…  

Well, at least I’ve never had this problem. On several occasions I’ve actually considered entering one of those "sexy legs" contests that clubs sometimes have, but I’ve never done it because I figure my height and nerdy appearance would subtract too much from what I’m sure wouldn’t be an objective evaluation of my legs. Or maybe I was just too shy to enter any of them.

I don’t think I could ever parade my legs like that! I don’t think they look *that* bad to be honest, a bit white perhaps but I’m not sure why I got such a negative reaction. No more shorts for me anyway Sad

Response:

"whats with the weird names?" <n…@ihug.co.nz.no.spam

wrote in message <news:blo4gn$tae$1@lust.ihug.co.nz… Thats the thing though, i have a good job well paid. im satisfied with my body. i enjoy doing interesting things on every weekend (sailing, mtbing, gliding) i’m intelligent (bugger the modesty). (match.com profile : Yotie) I am a member of two sports clubs which i really enjoy the sporting aspect of but shrink away from the social side. Also have a big bag full of lonliness. and so since i feel like i have enough material possesions i have attempted to conquer my final shortcoming with disasterous results feel like i have everything except a soul sometimes how do i learn how to talk to people?

lots and lots of practice? -w – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Alcohol would make me coma out before it would make me walk across a room to introduce myself to a girl. "The Putt King" <theputtk…@aol.com wrote in message news:20031004191654.13183.00000343@mb-m24.aol.com… <<Spend quite a lot of time, maybe a year or two, focusing on improving yourself, and living a life you consider interesting, and aren’t ashamed to tell people about.  What do you really want to do on weekends?  Make it happen. If you’re not happy with your body, fix that.  If you’re not employed, get employed.  If you don’t like your clothes, fix that too.  If you can’t talk to people, force yourself to learn.  You can allow yourself to feel depressed and like complaining sometimes, but don’t make it chronic. Focus more on things you can do right now, and have some contempt for long term planning.  (And especially plans for tomorrow, rather than right now.) That’s good advice. About 4 years ago I decided to do what you suggested. I haven’t made any attempt whatsoever to find a girlfriend in that time. I decided to  concentrate on enjoying my life and doing all the stuff I wanted.

Response:

"Darkfalz" <darkfalz.nos…@iprimus.com.au

wrote in message

news:blmft7$dt7td$1@ID-108208.news.uni-berlin.de…  

My advice – just give up. At least you won’t feel so shitty for repeatedly failing. Women are selfish, shallow and cruel and even if you could get one to love you, which is to say love your money or whatever else superficial you had to offer, odds are she’d end up making you even worse.

Give up? Yeah damn right! I’ve tried with women, I really have. I’ve tried being witty, intelligent and thoughtful. I’ve even tried appealing to their baser instincts by deliberately wearing shorts in order to show my legs off. An attempt to show bare male skin in a sexual way (I’m desperate!) but what did I get? Either indifference or comments like ‘His legs look yukky’. Sad

Response:

On Sun, 5 Oct 2003 16:51:52 +1300, "whats with the weird names?" <n…@ihug.co.nz.no.spam

wrote: Thats the thing though, i have a good job well paid. im satisfied with my body. i enjoy doing interesting things on every weekend (sailing, mtbing, gliding) i’m intelligent (bugger the modesty). (match.com profile : Yotie) I am a member of two sports clubs which i really enjoy the sporting aspect of but shrink away from the social side.

What are the sporting clubs? Why do you "shrink away" from the social side? Do you feel intimidated by them?  … feel any sort of hostility from them?  … can’t think of anything to say?

Also have a big bag full of lonliness. and so since i feel like i have enough material possesions i have attempted to conquer my final shortcoming with disasterous results feel like i have everything except a soul sometimes how do i learn how to talk to people?

Good question. What are the things you like to talk about?

Alcohol would make me coma out before it would make me walk across a room to introduce myself to a girl.

You will have to face that fear sooner or later, so why not sooner, rather than later? Solitary Soul -

http://users3.ev1.net/~solitarysoul/

—————————————————– If you can act convincingly, they’ll never know the difference.                                        - Captain Obvious

Response:

sports clubs; i am a member of a gliding club and a yacht club. The gliding club is  agood place to talk technical with a whole bunch of mainly older fellas who like relaying their near death experiences national records and glider technicalities, no women but i didnt join it for that. Sailing club is a good place to talk technical about yachts, near death experiences, and how close you cam to winning the national title in your class but still came 30th. few women(blokey atmosphere) but i go there to sail anyway. I dont know why i cant strike up a conversation there easily. i dont feel i have anything to contribute so, yeah, basically i cant think of anything to say. i.e no near death experiences, no national titles. I also think that my shyness can be seen from the outside as a kind of arrogance. as if im above "you lot". so i dont often get approached. Reasons i might be shy now ( i used to be the class clown in primary school) bullied at high school High school was an all boys school once good friends bailed on me been told im a "know all" on more than one occasion been harrassed after speaking in front of the whole school ( it was a memorial as well) made to feel self conscious about my lack of GF (s) First date girl stood me up during the date( i mean the very first date, three weeks ago) second "first date" made me realise how incompetent i am at trying to look intelligent and confident and knowing how to show a girl a good time. I am so used to talking technical my mind draws a blank in situations where i have to try and make the weather sound interesting.  I know i have an interesting side of me, i am not a bored person but my interests arnt that compatible with other people  i meet so any resulting conversation is very thin. "Solitary Soul" <solitarys…@ev1.net

wrote in message

news:nl7vnvk6f3m4pnm0p6n0es42k1p3hvuoa7@4ax.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

On Sun, 5 Oct 2003 16:51:52 +1300, "whats with the weird names?" <n…@ihug.co.nz.no.spam wrote: Thats the thing though, i have a good job well paid. im satisfied with my body. i enjoy doing interesting things on every weekend (sailing, mtbing, gliding) i’m intelligent (bugger the modesty). (match.com profile :

Yotie)

I am a member of two sports clubs which i really enjoy the sporting

aspect

of but shrink away from the social side. What are the sporting clubs? Why do you "shrink away" from the social side? Do you feel intimidated by them?  … feel any sort of hostility from them?  … can’t think of anything to say? Also have a big bag full of lonliness. and so since i feel like i have enough material possesions i have

attempted

to conquer my final shortcoming with disasterous results feel like i have everything except a soul sometimes how do i learn how to talk to people? Good question. What are the things you like to talk about? Alcohol would make me coma out before it would make me walk across a room

to

introduce myself to a girl. You will have to face that fear sooner or later, so why not sooner, rather than later? Solitary Soul – http://users3.ev1.net/~solitarysoul/ —————————————————– If you can act convincingly, they’ll never know the difference.                                        - Captain Obvious

Response:

"whats with the weird names?" <n…@ihug.co.nz.no.spam

wrote in

news:blo4gn$tae$1@lust.ihug.co.nz:

Thats the thing though, i have a good job well paid. im satisfied with my body. i enjoy doing interesting things on every weekend (sailing, mtbing, gliding) i’m intelligent (bugger the modesty). (match.com profile : Yotie) I am a member of two sports clubs which i really

Hmm…. Okay, this going to be a fairly harsh critique of your ad.  If you’re sensitive, tune out now. Your tagline reads: " i might act like a dork somtimes but i can make a real woman feel like a real woman if you would just give me a chance "   Two problems. First, you call yourself a dork.  That’s only cute when cute young women do it. Second, "make a real woman feel like a real woman" might as well read, "You think you’re a real woman?  You ain’t shit until you hop into my bed and PROVE it!"  Maybe not what you had in mind, but that’s what a lot of women are going to take from it.  It sounds like a sexual challenge. " turn-ons:       No Answer         sense of humor: No Answer         " It looks weird that these have no answer.  Surely you have selection criteria and a sense of humor? " i like to go to parties clubs concerts and just have as much fun as posiable i like playing my guitar alot love singing and i love to just get out and do stuff to have fun and live life sweet " True or not: 1) it sounds like you’re bullshitting, and 2) it sounds like all the other ads from guys (who are bullshitting). " im looking for a girl to no complain alot " This makes it sound like you’re looking for a woman to be barefoot, pregnant, and in the kitchen makin’ you a sammich.

how do i learn how to talk to people?

Get into situations where you’re forced to.  Teach, volunteer, get a part time job as a cashier, etc.  Eventually you’ll learn to stop giving a shit how you come off.  If you come off great, great.  If you come off terribly, so what?  There’s so many people in the world, your chances of making a good impression on some of them are pretty high as long: 1) you’re willing to let it, and 2) your sample size exceeds a single digit.

Response:

"William P" <will(dot)p…@sympatico.ca

wrote in message

news:Xns940A775F93C69willdotpatsympaticod@206.172.150.14… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Forget women for awhile.  You’re likely a ways away from the point where you can be successful.  Don’t agree with me?  Are you really sure?  Are you confident that there’s something about you that’s rare that there should be a woman who wants you for it?  Then go sell yourself. Spend quite a lot of time, maybe a year or two, focusing on improving yourself, and living a life you consider interesting, and aren’t ashamed to tell people about.  What do you really want to do on weekends?  Make it happen. If you’re not happy with your body, fix that.  If you’re not employed, get employed.  If you don’t like your clothes, fix that too.  If you can’t talk to people, force yourself to learn.  You can allow yourself to feel depressed and like complaining sometimes, but don’t make it chronic. Focus more on things you can do right now, and have some contempt for long term planning.  (And especially plans for tomorrow, rather than right now.)

A positive post like this is like a good shot of caffeine in the morning.

Response:

1997 new years resolution: this is the year i am going to find my self a girlfriend 1998 18th birthday:  at university, ive got to lose my virginity this year 1999  at work,yeah ok fellas, now you know the truth so stop hasseling me 2000 anytime now 2001 2002 this is bollocks, sigh, someone will come my way if it was meant to be 2003 ive run out of ideas. Match.com profile and two dates that were best forgotten, both a real confidence shatterer and im basically a wreck now. tearing myself apart in private and im mentally going downhill fast. I have always been shy but i seem to be getting worse at the whole social thing. Any suggestions how i can get back before i crack completely and wander off into the bush.

Response:

"whats with the weird names?" <n…@ihug.co.nz.no.spam

wrote in message

news:blma4c$hlv$1@lust.ihug.co.nz…

1997 new years resolution: this is the year i am going to find my self a girlfriend 1998 18th birthday:  at university, ive got to lose my virginity this year 1999  at work,yeah ok fellas, now you know the truth so stop hasseling me 2000 anytime now 2001 2002 this is bollocks, sigh, someone will come my way if it was meant to

be

2003 ive run out of ideas. Match.com profile and two dates that were best forgotten, both a real confidence shatterer and im basically a wreck now. tearing myself apart in private and im mentally going downhill fast. I have always been shy but i seem to be getting worse at the whole social thing. Any suggestions how i can get back before i crack completely and wander off into the bush.

My timeline is remarkably similar. My advice – just give up. At least you won’t feel so shitty for repeatedly failing. Women are selfish, shallow and cruel and even if you could get one to love you, which is to say love your money or whatever else superficial you had to offer, odds are she’d end up making you even worse.

Response:

Darkfalz wrote:

My timeline is remarkably similar. My advice – just give up. At least you won’t feel so shitty for repeatedly failing. Women are selfish, shallow and cruel and even if you could get one to love you, which is to say love your money or whatever else superficial you had to offer, odds are she’d end up making you even worse.

[shudder] Ye gods! That’s the spirit, big guy. MCMLXVI’s Fortune Cookies: "If at first you don’t succeed, redefine success."

Response:

"whats with the weird names?" <n…@ihug.co.nz.no.spam

wrote in

news:blma4c$hlv$1@lust.ihug.co.nz:

1997 new years resolution: this is the year i am going to find my self a girlfriend 1998 18th birthday:  at university, ive got to lose my virginity this year 1999  at work,yeah ok fellas, now you know the truth so stop hasseling me 2000 anytime now 2001 2002 this is bollocks, sigh, someone will come my way if it was meant to be 2003 ive run out of ideas. Match.com profile and two dates that were best forgotten, both a real confidence shatterer and im basically a wreck now. tearing myself apart in private and im mentally going downhill fast. I have always been shy but i seem to be getting worse at the whole social thing. Any suggestions how i can get back before i crack completely and wander off into the bush.

Forget women for awhile.  You’re likely a ways away from the point where you can be successful.  Don’t agree with me?  Are you really sure?  Are you confident that there’s something about you that’s rare that there should be a woman who wants you for it?  Then go sell yourself. Spend quite a lot of time, maybe a year or two, focusing on improving yourself, and living a life you consider interesting, and aren’t ashamed to tell people about.  What do you really want to do on weekends?  Make it happen. If you’re not happy with your body, fix that.  If you’re not employed, get employed.  If you don’t like your clothes, fix that too.  If you can’t talk to people, force yourself to learn.  You can allow yourself to feel depressed and like complaining sometimes, but don’t make it chronic.   Focus more on things you can do right now, and have some contempt for long term planning.  (And especially plans for tomorrow, rather than right now.)

Response:

MCMLXVI <mar…@earthlink.net

wrote in message <news:3F7EC492.3080801@earthlink.net… Darkfalz wrote: My timeline is remarkably similar. My advice – just give up. At least you won’t feel so shitty for repeatedly failing. Women are selfish, shallow and cruel and even if you could get one to love you, which is to say love your money or whatever else superficial you had to offer, odds are she’d end up making you even worse. [shudder] Ye gods! That’s the spirit, big guy.

My timeline is similar, too, just a few years prior to yours.  Time goes on and nothing changes for the shy person.  Even when I got the chance, I couldn’t act on it, too afraid.

Response:

<<Spend quite a lot of time, maybe a year or two, focusing on improving yourself, and living a life you consider interesting, and aren’t ashamed to tell people about.  What do you really want to do on weekends?  Make it happen. If you’re not happy with your body, fix that.  If you’re not employed, get employed.  If you don’t like your clothes, fix that too.  If you can’t talk to people, force yourself to learn.  You can allow yourself to feel depressed and like complaining sometimes, but don’t make it chronic.   Focus more on things you can do right now, and have some contempt for long term planning.  (And especially plans for tomorrow, rather than right now.) That’s good advice. About 4 years ago I decided to do what you suggested. I haven’t made any attempt whatsoever to find a girlfriend in that time. I decided to concentrate on enjoying my life and doing all the stuff I wanted.

Response:

Thats the thing though, i have a good job well paid. im satisfied with my body. i enjoy doing interesting things on every weekend (sailing, mtbing, gliding) i’m intelligent (bugger the modesty). (match.com profile : Yotie) I am a member of two sports clubs which i really enjoy the sporting aspect of but shrink away from the social side. Also have a big bag full of lonliness. and so since i feel like i have enough material possesions i have attempted to conquer my final shortcoming with disasterous results feel like i have everything except a soul sometimes how do i learn how to talk to people? Alcohol would make me coma out before it would make me walk across a room to introduce myself to a girl. "The Putt King" <theputtk…@aol.com

wrote in message

news:20031004191654.13183.00000343@mb-m24.aol.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

<<Spend quite a lot of time, maybe a year or two, focusing on improving yourself, and living a life you consider interesting, and aren’t ashamed to tell people about.  What do you really want to do on weekends?  Make it happen. If you’re not happy with your body, fix that.  If you’re not employed, get employed.  If you don’t like your clothes, fix that too.  If you can’t talk to people, force yourself to learn.  You can allow yourself to feel depressed and like complaining sometimes, but don’t make it chronic. Focus more on things you can do right now, and have some contempt for long term planning.  (And especially plans for tomorrow, rather than right now.) That’s good advice. About 4 years ago I decided to do what you suggested. I haven’t made any attempt whatsoever to find a girlfriend in that time. I decided to

concentrate

on enjoying my life and doing all the stuff I wanted.

Response:

Question:

stupid stupid isp which has been sold and bought by so many companies it is now something like SBC yahOO prOdigy flash stupid stupid stupid dot com dot net dot dot dot… :p—– every new sale means the service gets worse, the subscriber base gets huger, and the download time is longer. and we gots an old slow modem so we are at the back of the dl line anyway. now it is deleting messages from the ng after only two days even tho my preferences have always been set for keeping messages for a couple months which is longer than they actually ever last but at least i had time to pretend i was gonna read more than i did. now they just go poof and i have to unsubscribe and resubscribe to the ng in order to pick up older posts. i don’t even bother to change isp’s cause i see this isp selling stuff going on all over the place and i have no reason to believe that wherever i might take my business won’t suddenly become AOsmell while we’re sleeping and at least i know i hate this isp. i loved it when it was just the flash company. what a great name and it was a good service and all. (thanks to linda of 3creus for the recommendation way back when) so just kvetching and being hopeless cause that is how i am feeling tonite and maybe it’s better to moan about the stupid isp instead of the more ugly hopelessness that is climbing inside of us. goodnight and hello, betsy — You think you are innocent if you say, ‘I love this woman and I want to act in accordance with my love,’ but you are beginning the revolution… You will be driven back: to claim the right to a human act is to attack the forces responsible for all the misery in the world.  - Paul Nizan

Response:

grrrrrrr. sounds really frustrating. ~  sorry that you’re feeling so hopeless. hope you feel better soon.   e – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – stupid stupid isp which has been sold and bought by so many companies it is now something like SBC yahOO prOdigy flash stupid stupid stupid dot com dot net dot dot dot… :p—– every new sale means the service gets worse, the subscriber base gets huger, and the download time is longer. and we gots an old slow modem so we are at the back of the dl line anyway. now it is deleting messages from the ng after only two days even tho my preferences have always been set for keeping messages for a couple months which is longer than they actually ever last but at least i had time to pretend i was gonna read more than i did. now they just go poof and i have to unsubscribe and resubscribe to the ng in order to pick up older posts. i don’t even bother to change isp’s cause i see this isp selling stuff going on all over the place and i have no reason to believe that wherever i might take my business won’t suddenly become AOsmell while we’re sleeping and at least i know i hate this isp. i loved it when it was just the flash company. what a great name and it was a good service and all. (thanks to linda of 3creus for the recommendation way back when) so just kvetching and being hopeless cause that is how i am feeling tonite and maybe it’s better to moan about the stupid isp instead of the more ugly hopelessness that is climbing inside of us. goodnight and hello, betsy — You think you are innocent if you say, ‘I love this woman and I want to act in accordance with my love,’ but you are beginning the revolution… You will be driven back: to claim the right to a human act is to attack the forces responsible for all the misery in the world.  - Paul Nizan

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – stupid stupid isp which has been sold and bought by so many companies it is now something like SBC yahOO prOdigy flash stupid stupid stupid dot com dot net dot dot dot… :p—– every new sale means the service gets worse, the subscriber base gets huger, and the download time is longer. and we gots an old slow modem so we are at the back of the dl line anyway. now it is deleting messages from the ng after only two days even tho my preferences have always been set for keeping messages for a couple months which is longer than they actually ever last but at least i had time to pretend i was gonna read more than i did. now they just go poof and i have to unsubscribe and resubscribe to the ng in order to pick up older posts. i don’t even bother to change isp’s cause i see this isp selling stuff going on all over the place and i have no reason to believe that wherever i might take my business won’t suddenly become AOsmell while we’re sleeping and at least i know i hate this isp. i loved it when it was just the flash company. what a great name and it was a good service and all. (thanks to linda of 3creus for the recommendation way back when)

I have increased in number eh….?  *grins* I’m just sorry they sold out.  So many good companies go that way and become crummy larger companies and innovation and good service&products become stagnation&bloatware.  Look what happened to companies like Bungie after microsnot bought them out.    I wish I could tell you of a local isp in your area like I could here or when I lived in NH.  Those were better and a much smaller user base and different phone lines or they use different switching stations than the biggies do.  There must be something where you are but I don’t know how to find them from here.  The numbers they use to connect is key though.  If you can find one that doesn’t use the same ones as AOL, earthlink and whoever else is big nowadays.  I noticed my local isp was using the same numbers to connect as earthlink was when I had that, so I dumped them and got a different one with three sets of numbers from three providers. I’ll paste in some urls to check maybe if you still are up to it. http://www.ispfinder.com/ http://thelist.internet.com/ if you can swing DSL: http://www.dslreports.com/ so just kvetching and being hopeless cause that is how i am feeling tonite and maybe it’s better to moan about the stupid isp instead of the more ugly hopelessness that is climbing inside of us. goodnight and hello, betsy

I hope that hopelessness climbs right on out of there.  I have to keep shining the searchlite into the darker recesses from time to time to make sure they aren’t hiding anywhere too.  I can’t say the effexor is helping that though.  I think I’ll be changing sometime to something else or not at all.  maybe we can keep shining the lite at each other sometimes.   take care betsy linda — I just wish I had put in a door when I built my wall.

Response:

boo.com has been recommended to me by several people.  it is local and apparently small, careful, and resistant to the biggies and their buying, re-morgaging games. trill hey, linda, howya doin?  We don’t hear much from you, lately.  But, we think of you, fondly, from time to time.     still trill

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – stupid stupid isp which has been sold and bought by so many companies it is now something like SBC yahOO prOdigy flash stupid stupid stupid dot com dot net dot dot dot… :p—– every new sale means the service gets worse, the subscriber base gets huger, and the download time is longer. and we gots an old slow modem so we are at the back of the dl line anyway. now it is deleting messages from the ng after only two days even tho my preferences have always been set for keeping messages for a couple months which is longer than they actually ever last but at least i had time to pretend i was gonna read more than i did. now they just go poof and i have to unsubscribe and resubscribe to the ng in order to pick up older posts. i don’t even bother to change isp’s cause i see this isp selling stuff going on all over the place and i have no reason to believe that wherever i might take my business won’t suddenly become AOsmell while we’re sleeping and at least i know i hate this isp. i loved it when it was just the flash company. what a great name and it was a good service and all. (thanks to linda of 3creus for the recommendation way back when) I have increased in number eh….?  *grins* I’m just sorry they sold out.  So many good companies go that way and become crummy larger companies and innovation and good service&products become stagnation&bloatware.  Look what happened to companies like Bungie after microsnot bought them out.  I wish I could tell you of a local isp in your area like I could here or when I lived in NH.  Those were better and a much smaller user base and different phone lines or they use different switching stations than the biggies do.  There must be something where you are but I don’t know how to find them from here.  The numbers they use to connect is key though.  If you can find one that doesn’t use the same ones as AOL, earthlink and whoever else is big nowadays.  I noticed my local isp was using the same numbers to connect as earthlink was when I had that, so I dumped them and got a different one with three sets of numbers from three providers. I’ll paste in some urls to check maybe if you still are up to it. http://www.ispfinder.com/ http://thelist.internet.com/ if you can swing DSL: http://www.dslreports.com/ so just kvetching and being hopeless cause that is how i am feeling tonite and maybe it’s better to moan about the stupid isp instead of the more ugly hopelessness that is climbing inside of us. goodnight and hello, betsy I hope that hopelessness climbs right on out of there.  I have to keep shining the searchlite into the darker recesses from time to time to make sure they aren’t hiding anywhere too.  I can’t say the effexor is helping that though.  I think I’ll be changing sometime to something else or not at all.  maybe we can keep shining the lite at each other sometimes. take care betsy linda — I just wish I had put in a door when I built my wall.

Response:

p.s.  maybe it is boo.net?  I can’t remember trill

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – boo.com has been recommended to me by several people.  it is local and apparently small, careful, and resistant to the biggies and their buying, re-morgaging games. trill hey, linda, howya doin?  We don’t hear much from you, lately.  But, we think of you, fondly, from time to time.     still trill stupid stupid isp which has been sold and bought by so many companies it is now something like SBC yahOO prOdigy flash stupid stupid stupid dot com dot net dot dot dot… :p—– every new sale means the service gets worse, the subscriber base gets huger, and the download time is longer. and we gots an old slow modem so we are at the back of the dl line anyway. now it is deleting messages from the ng after only two days even tho my preferences have always been set for keeping messages for a couple months which is longer than they actually ever last but at least i had time to pretend i was gonna read more than i did. now they just go poof and i have to unsubscribe and resubscribe to the ng in order to pick up older posts. i don’t even bother to change isp’s cause i see this isp selling stuff going on all over the place and i have no reason to believe that wherever i might take my business won’t suddenly become AOsmell while we’re sleeping and at least i know i hate this isp. i loved it when it was just the flash company. what a great name and it was a good service and all. (thanks to linda of 3creus for the recommendation way back when) I have increased in number eh….?  *grins* I’m just sorry they sold out.  So many good companies go that way and become crummy larger companies and innovation and good service&products become stagnation&bloatware.  Look what happened to companies like Bungie after microsnot bought them out.  I wish I could tell you of a local isp in your area like I could here or when I lived in NH.  Those were better and a much smaller user base and different phone lines or they use different switching stations than the biggies do.  There must be something where you are but I don’t know how to find them from here.  The numbers they use to connect is key though.  If you can find one that doesn’t use the same ones as AOL, earthlink and whoever else is big nowadays.  I noticed my local isp was using the same numbers to connect as earthlink was when I had that, so I dumped them and got a different one with three sets of numbers from three providers. I’ll paste in some urls to check maybe if you still are up to it. http://www.ispfinder.com/ http://thelist.internet.com/ if you can swing DSL: http://www.dslreports.com/ so just kvetching and being hopeless cause that is how i am feeling tonite and maybe it’s better to moan about the stupid isp instead of the more ugly hopelessness that is climbing inside of us. goodnight and hello, betsy I hope that hopelessness climbs right on out of there.  I have to keep shining the searchlite into the darker recesses from time to time to make sure they aren’t hiding anywhere too.  I can’t say the effexor is helping that though.  I think I’ll be changing sometime to something else or not at all.  maybe we can keep shining the lite at each other sometimes. take care betsy linda — I just wish I had put in a door when I built my wall.

Response:

boo.com has been recommended to me by several people.  it is local and apparently small, careful, and resistant to the biggies and their buying, re-morgaging games. trill hey, linda, howya doin?  We don’t hear much from you, lately.  But, we think of you, fondly, from time to time.     still trill

hi trill, I’m doing ok, thanks.  Hope all is well with you also.  I post very little when I’m limited on time or energy.  doesn’t mean I don’t think often of my friends all over usenet.  I try to catch up when I can but lately, between effexor side effects and worries, it’s been sporatic at best.  I’m not a moderator anymore on asarm but you’ll probably see me there more often just because I’m used to it and it’s easy to keep up with.  asd get’s a lot more posts and I get overwhelmed easy.  Jill’s degree (suggestion…grin) is followed more closely here.  *smirk* ducks flying rainbow jello.   I’ve always been one to posts a whole sh*tload and then go quiet for a while.  that’s just me. FWIW.   linda — I just wish I had put in a door when I built my wall.

Response:

Hi linda,

<snip I’m between and below hi trill, I’m doing ok, thanks.  Hope all is well with you also.  I post very little when I’m limited on time or energy.

I get that.  Like I’ve vanished from time to time, especially recently during my move. doesn’t mean I don’t think often of my friends all over usenet.

Wow.  I could never go all over usenet.  I’m glad you’ve got friends in so many places. I try to catch up when I can but lately, between effexor side effects and worries, it’s been sporatic at best.

    Having just come off of my first and so far only round with any antidepressant, I’m still pretty much of the mindset that the "side" effects outweigh the "intended" or hoped-for effects.  Though I experienced the intended ones for a hot second, the negative ones lasted much longer and grew in number and intensity rather than diminishing as I was promised by the mh pros.  Other friends of mine have told me that they do not accept the theory that the "side" effects stop.  Rather, someone put it, one adjust hirself to the side effects by changing diet and sleeping habits to accomodate them.     I don’t know anything for sure, except that after awhile the intended effects stopped for me and I was only left with exhaustion, increased numbers and intensity of migraines, and virtually destroyed appetite.  As for the famous l*b*do effects, well, I don’t even consider those worth mentioning.  I went into the game not caring what became of mine.  It seems cumbersome and irritating when it is around, anyway.     Withdrawal was extremely intense for me, convincing me that the concept of this class of drugs not being addictive is a semantics game and rhetorical manipulation design by the big pharm as a marketing campaign.  In fact, while researching the withdrawal symptoms of coming offa c*lxa, I learned that the reason that drug became so popular so quickly is that it was way more heavily marketed by the big pharm than any other a-d ever before, the line being that it is the most specific ssri, having little to no effect on other neurotransmitters than seratonin, and therefore having the least amt of side effects.  But, when it all came out in the wash of mass distribution and use, it turned out to have pretty much the same side effects at the same rate as all the other SSRIs.  So…     So, good luck.  I hope effexor works well for you with little disturbance.  I’m not a moderator anymore on asarm but you’ll probably see me there more often just because I’m used to it and it’s easy to keep up with.

oh well.  The idea of trying to join another ng for any reason in the whole wide world terrifies me.  You have no idea, but it took mos. of encouragement and gentle proddings by my t and a friend before I even made an attempt to find asd.  Then it took mos of lurking before I even made an attempt to figure out how to get to post here with relative anonymity.     While I sometimes go overboard with posting here, I don’t think anyone will every find me posting at any other ng. Anyway, I’m glad to see you when I do.  asd get’s a lot more posts and I get overwhelmed easy.

    That happens to me, too.  You have no idea how much more of this ng I mark as read without that being the case than I actually read.  No offense to anyone.  It is _mostly_ indiscriminate and based only on MY time and mood, but it is mostly not read.  Therefore, besides getting overwhelmed, I also often get confused.     For instance:  Where’s Beauty and J/c and mags and halina and dyenths, to name a few whom I haven’t seen around for a bit, whom I was used to seeing lots of at different times.  Perhaps they each gave some sort of notice that I missed.  Oh well.  Guess I blew it.  Jill’s degree (suggestion…grin) is followed more closely here.  *smirk*

Sorry.  Sometimes I get carried away.  It’s true.  Soemtimes reading and writing here are my great dissociative escape from the difficulties of my life.     Lately I’ve encountered mnay difficulties in my life. ducks flying rainbow jello.

I like the double entendre of your grammar just above.  I see ducks soaring through rainbow jello.  I see ducks made of rainbow jello.  I see ducks launching rainbow jello offa catapaults and rocket pads.  And I see you ducking the rainbow jello that flies. I’ve always been one to posts a whole sh*tload and then go quiet for a while.  that’s just me. FWIW.

I noticed.  Okay by me. trill – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – linda — I just wish I had put in a door when I built my wall.

Response:

Hey trill We’s here….. Work and gran’pa-ing has been taking their toll on us.. We’s not suffering. mind you(but that’s to be explained in our response to 14’s question)  (waves 14) but we have been enduring quite a bit of pain and discomfort Also been dealing one gawd awful *cold*   sniffle< We got a few responses on the go(but jeese a decent post takes us at least 2 hrs sitting at the keyboard)  moan< I think Beauty would be watching her SO doing his folk dancing in Croatia right about now… mags and the others ,,,I don’t know! We.ve been having trouble picking up mags posts… Been seeing responses to hir but sometimes her post doesn’t show up for a week… been really confusing!! You and me both find usenet intimidating  brrr I wouldn’t even think of venturing around outside of asd… I think you are very brave Linda  waves< betsy…. grrr sorry to hear about your isp… we’re dealing with the same thing up here… all of the dial-ups have been bought out by the corporate telephone monopoly… grrr And they want everybody to switch to DSL It’s even cheaper than dial-up… but you need a pentium to run it… grrr Peter.. Hope to get an email out to you soon.. If not in time .. Hope you enjoy your Canada Day long weekend! Now hope I can finish that other post… whew J/c.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi linda, <snip I’m between and below hi trill, I’m doing ok, thanks.  Hope all is well with you also.  I post very little when I’m limited on time or energy. I get that.  Like I’ve vanished from time to time, especially recently during my move. doesn’t mean I don’t think often of my friends all over usenet. Wow.  I could never go all over usenet.  I’m glad you’ve got friends in so many places. I try to catch up when I can but lately, between effexor side effects and worries, it’s been sporatic at best.     Having just come off of my first and so far only round with any antidepressant, I’m still pretty much of the mindset that the "side" effects outweigh the "intended" or hoped-for effects.  Though I experienced the intended ones for a hot second, the negative ones lasted much longer and grew in number and intensity rather than diminishing as I was promised by the mh pros.  Other friends of mine have told me that they do not accept the theory that the "side" effects stop.  Rather, someone put it, one adjust hirself to the side effects by changing diet and sleeping habits to accomodate them.     I don’t know anything for sure, except that after awhile the intended effects stopped for me and I was only left with exhaustion, increased numbers and intensity of migraines, and virtually destroyed appetite.  As for the famous l*b*do effects, well, I don’t even consider those worth mentioning.  I went into the game not caring what became of mine.  It seems cumbersome and irritating when it is around, anyway.     Withdrawal was extremely intense for me, convincing me that the concept of this class of drugs not being addictive is a semantics game and rhetorical manipulation design by the big pharm as a marketing campaign. In fact, while researching the withdrawal symptoms of coming offa c*lxa, I learned that the reason that drug became so popular so quickly is that it was way more heavily marketed by the big pharm than any other a-d ever before, the line being that it is the most specific ssri, having little to no effect on other neurotransmitters than seratonin, and therefore having the least amt of side effects.  But, when it all came out in the wash of mass distribution and use, it turned out to have pretty much the same side effects at the same rate as all the other SSRIs.  So…     So, good luck.  I hope effexor works well for you with little disturbance.  I’m not a moderator anymore on asarm but you’ll probably see me there more often just because I’m used to it and it’s easy to keep up with. oh well.  The idea of trying to join another ng for any reason in the whole wide world terrifies me.  You have no idea, but it took mos. of encouragement and gentle proddings by my t and a friend before I even made an attempt to find asd.  Then it took mos of lurking before I even made an attempt to figure out how to get to post here with relative anonymity.     While I sometimes go overboard with posting here, I don’t think anyone will every find me posting at any other ng. Anyway, I’m glad to see you when I do.  asd get’s a lot more posts and I get overwhelmed easy.     That happens to me, too.  You have no idea how much more of this ng I mark as read without that being the case than I actually read.  No offense to anyone.  It is _mostly_ indiscriminate and based only on MY time and mood, but it is mostly not read.  Therefore, besides getting overwhelmed, I also often get confused.     For instance:  Where’s Beauty and J/c and mags and halina and dyenths, to name a few whom I haven’t seen around for a bit, whom I was used to seeing lots of at different times.  Perhaps they each gave some sort of notice that I missed.  Oh well.  Guess I blew it.  Jill’s degree (suggestion…grin) is followed more closely here.  *smirk* Sorry.  Sometimes I get carried away.  It’s true.  Soemtimes reading and writing here are my great dissociative escape from the difficulties of my life.     Lately I’ve encountered mnay difficulties in my life. ducks flying rainbow jello. I like the double entendre of your grammar just above.  I see ducks soaring through rainbow jello.  I see ducks made of rainbow jello.  I see ducks launching rainbow jello offa catapaults and rocket pads.  And I see you ducking the rainbow jello that flies. I’ve always been one to posts a whole sh*tload and then go quiet for a while.  that’s just me. FWIW. I noticed.  Okay by me. trill linda — I just wish I had put in a door when I built my wall.

Response:

Hi trill and J/c, Hey trill We’s here….. Work and gran’pa-ing has been taking their toll on us.. We’s not suffering. mind you(but that’s to be explained in our response to 14’s question)  (waves 14) but we have been enduring quite a bit of pain and discomfort Also been dealing one gawd awful *cold*   sniffle<

hope your cold is doing a bit better.  zinc and vit C is my prescription and lots of clear liquids.  :)) most grand’pa’s like the duties all too well, in my experience.  ;-)  I wasn’t real crazy about my inlaws but there were times when I wished someone was around to help me.  I was in the service and then we moved up to NH and again, no foo around on either side, again.  I’m used to it now and the "little" one is 20 and at least 5′10 and still growing.   We got a few responses on the go(but jeese a decent post takes us at least 2 hrs sitting at the keyboard)  moan< I think Beauty would be watching her SO doing his folk dancing in Croatia right about now… mags and the others ,,,I don’t know! We.ve been having trouble picking up mags posts… Been seeing responses to hir but sometimes her post doesn’t show up for a week… been really confusing!! You and me both find usenet intimidating  brrr I wouldn’t even think of venturing around outside of asd… I think you are very brave Linda  waves<

<waves  nice to hear from ya.  I’ve started out on asarm and branched out.   getting 2-c-reus now… I’m not brave at all though, J/c.  I have to clarify that.  Someone on asarm said I was too and I have to clear up that misconception.  I think if someone is brave, they do something [positive] knowing the consequences may be negative and they do it anyway.  I often do things without even caring enough to check into what may happen and there is a "what the h*ll" attached to it.  Kind of a resigned feeling of "it’s only me anyway" thing behind it.   I know that isn’t the best way to think but we’re working on that one…still. As far as posting on various groups goes…well…that depends on what someone has to loose.  If a person has others to watch out for and may suffer a great deal if they were located…the consequences become very high.  For me, there is no real consequences that I give a damn about.  My foo is all drunk, drugged out, d*ad or elsewhere and I doubt they’d even bother to find out where I wound up.  They never did when I was right there.   Other perps are either d*ad or some stranger. I am unemployed so there’s no boss to search for me and I guess I have a pretty lousy attitude about bosses too.   so I guess I rambled on too much about a simple polite statement.  sorry. I don’t like to let myself take credit for something I don’t deserve. I hope everyone who’s down right now with some flu or something else, is feeling  a little better. betsy…. grrr sorry to hear about your isp… we’re dealing with the same thing up here… all of the dial-ups have been bought out by the corporate telephone monopoly… grrr And they want everybody to switch to DSL It’s even cheaper than dial-up… but you need a pentium to run it… grrr

I thought you had gotten a newer one.  you were using the one you built before.  Not sure why I thought that.   I wonder how that translates into Mac requirements?  power pc 604 or G-3? not sure what you have betsy.   For us, cable was do-able since we paid for it anyway and we got in on a starter deal for new hookups when the finished installing the lines out here.   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Peter.. Hope to get an email out to you soon.. If not in time .. Hope you enjoy your Canada Day long weekend! Now hope I can finish that other post… whew J/c. Hi linda, <snip I’m between and below hi trill, I’m doing ok, thanks.  Hope all is well with you also.  I post very little when I’m limited on time or energy. I get that.  Like I’ve vanished from time to time, especially recently during my move. doesn’t mean I don’t think often of my friends all over usenet. Wow.  I could never go all over usenet.  I’m glad you’ve got friends in so many places. I try to catch up when I can but lately, between effexor side effects and worries, it’s been sporatic at best.     Having just come off of my first and so far only round with any antidepressant, I’m still pretty much of the mindset that the "side" effects outweigh the "intended" or hoped-for effects.  Though I experienced the intended ones for a hot second, the negative ones lasted much longer and grew in number and intensity rather than diminishing as I was promised by the mh pros.  Other friends of mine have told me that they do not accept the theory that the "side" effects stop.  Rather, someone put it, one adjust hirself to the side effects by changing diet and sleeping habits to accomodate them.     I don’t know anything for sure, except that after awhile the intended effects stopped for me and I was only left with exhaustion, increased numbers and intensity of migraines, and virtually destroyed appetite.  As for the famous l*b*do effects, well, I don’t even consider those worth mentioning.  I went into the game not caring what became of mine.  It seems cumbersome and irritating when it is around, anyway.     Withdrawal was extremely intense for me, convincing me that the concept of this class of drugs not being addictive is a semantics game and rhetorical manipulation design by the big pharm as a marketing campaign. In fact, while researching the withdrawal symptoms of coming offa c*lxa, I learned that the reason that drug became so popular so quickly is that it was way more heavily marketed by the big pharm than any other a-d ever before, the line being that it is the most specific ssri, having little to no effect on other neurotransmitters than seratonin, and therefore having the least amt of side effects.  But, when it all came out in the wash of mass distribution and use, it turned out to have pretty much the same side effects at the same rate as all the other SSRIs.  So…     So, good luck.  I hope effexor works well for you with little disturbance.

I think I’m coming to a similar conclusion now.  I’ve been on just about all of them and my response is one of either more depressed than before or it does nothing after an intital upswing.  Like I get aclimated to it or something.  I think most my depression is situational and until that improves, then that will also…eventually.  I haven’t given up on finding a T that can help me.  I just know now that the VA isn’t going to help me find one.  Maybe I can find one later if my SSI goes thru or my VA claim for stuff that happened while in the navy.  then I’ll start looking around.  I wanted to give this med a chance since this is a new PDoc (to me) and he’s supposed to be real helpful for us getting assistance.  He is less likely to play the insurance game.  But they still like their medications.  He’s seen my chart though and knows all the meds I’ve already been on.   I’m not a moderator anymore on asarm but you’ll probably see me there more often just because I’m used to it and it’s easy to keep up with. oh well.  The idea of trying to join another ng for any reason in the whole wide world terrifies me.  You have no idea, but it took mos. of encouragement and gentle proddings by my t and a friend before I even made an attempt to find asd.  Then it took mos of lurking before I even made an attempt to figure out how to get to post here with relative anonymity.     While I sometimes go overboard with posting here, I don’t think anyone will every find me posting at any other ng. Anyway, I’m glad to see you when I do.

well, that’s cool too.  sometimes I like it here better.  It depends, like   you say, on what I am needing at the time.  Sometimes one is just not enough and the posts seem too…um…nice.  sometimes I need to talk about things that aren’t so nice and politically correct.  or maybe get feedback from some others who may tell me something I may not want to hear but need to hear.  if that makes any sense.   Other times, that is just about all I can handle and I can’t do confrontations much at all anytime.    asd get’s a lot more posts and I get overwhelmed easy.     That happens to me, too.  You have no idea how much more of this ng I mark as read without that being the case than I actually read.  No offense to anyone.  It is _mostly_ indiscriminate and based only on MY time and mood, but it is mostly not read.  Therefore, besides getting overwhelmed,

yeah, I do that too.  not because I am trying to exclude anyone but more like I just can’t "split" my mind into that many area’s at once.  I tend to be more mono.   I also often get confused.     For instance:  Where’s Beauty and J/c and mags and halina and dyenths, to name a few whom I haven’t seen around for a bit, whom I was used to seeing lots of at different times.  Perhaps they each gave some sort of notice that I missed.  Oh well.  Guess I blew it.  Jill’s degree (suggestion…grin) is followed more closely here.  *smirk* Sorry.  Sometimes I get carried away.  It’s true.  Soemtimes reading and writing here are my great dissociative escape from the difficulties of my life.     Lately I’ve encountered mnay difficulties in my life.

why are you … read more »

Response:

Hey linda Also been dealing one gawd awful *cold*   sniffle< hope your cold is doing a bit better.  zinc and vit C is my prescription and lots of clear liquids.  :))

Yes thanx….. thanx also for indirectly prompting us to re-evaluate our fruit consumption!!  wink< Yes.. we did go and get a couple of orangesand shared some of the granddaughter’s watermelon! I think it helped!! most grand’pa’s like the duties all too well, in my experience.  ;-)

Yup.. Sadly though an unfortunate situation has arisen at her home, and it appears that grandpa’ing is going to be a very full time experience this summer!!!! We do have gr*ve concerns!<<<

 I wasn’t real crazy about my inlaws but there were times when I wished someone was around to help me.  I was in the service and then we moved up to NH and again, no foo around on either side, again.

Sorry linda!!  I know how that is!!!   ( We did it alone too! Not something I could do to my kid though! If she needs me I am there! I’m used to it now and the "little" one is 20 and at least 5′10 and still growing.

Very Big Grin How is he getting along in the new surroundings? <snip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think you are very brave Linda  waves< <waves  nice to hear from ya.  I’ve started out on asarm and branched out. getting 2-c-reus now… I’m not brave at all though, J/c.  I have to clarify that.  Someone on asarm said I was too and I have to clear up that misconception.  I think if someone is brave, they do something [positive] knowing the consequences may be negative and they do it anyway.  I often do things without even caring enough to check into what may happen and there is a "what the h*ll" attached to it.  Kind of a resigned feeling of "it’s only me anyway" thing behind it. I know that isn’t the best way to think but we’re working on that one…still.

OK  we can accept that you don’t feel that this is bravery! ) but…but…. to us.. the thought of it is real sceery! As far as posting on various groups goes…well…that depends on what someone has to loose.  If a person has others to watch out for and may suffer a great deal if they were located…the consequences become very high.  For me, there is no real consequences that I give a damn about.  My foo is all drunk, drugged out, d*ad or elsewhere and I doubt they’d even bother to find out where I wound up.  They never did when I was right there. Other perps are either d*ad or some stranger. I am unemployed so there’s no boss to search for me and I guess I have a pretty lousy attitude about bosses too. so I guess I rambled on too much about a simple polite statement.  sorry. I don’t like to let myself take credit for something I don’t deserve.

Will you let youself take credit for "a very good rant"! ;o) Sorry that you had to have so many crappy people in your life linda!  :o( <snip I thought you had gotten a newer one.  you were using the one you built before.  Not sure why I thought that. I wonder how that translates into Mac requirements?  power pc 604 or G-3? not sure what you have betsy. For us, cable was do-able since we paid for it anyway and we got in on a starter deal for new hookups when the finished installing the lines out here.

Oh… we’ve upgraded pretty much everything except the Y2K handicapped 486 motherboard.. groan.. Looks like it will be quite a while before that happens! Good to hear from you linda! How’s the weather down there? Warm thoughts J/c

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey linda Hi J/c Also been dealing one gawd awful *cold*   sniffle< hope your cold is doing a bit better.  zinc and vit C is my prescription and lots of clear liquids.  :)) Yes thanx….. thanx also for indirectly prompting us to re-evaluate our fruit consumption!!  wink< Yes.. we did go and get a couple of orangesand shared some of the granddaughter’s watermelon! I think it helped!!

Good!  Watermelon has more Vit. C than oranges.  I found that tidbit out in nursing school.  it was a trick question that we all got wrong. most grand’pa’s like the duties all too well, in my experience.  ;-) Yup.. Sadly though an unfortunate situation has arisen at her home, and it appears that grandpa’ing is going to be a very full time experience this summer!!!!

Sorry to hear that her situation is like that.  I know you’ll be the best gramps though.   It can get wearing on you though.  I hope you can take some time for you too.  I know what it feels like to feel overwhelmed and guilty about needing time for myself in order to be more understanding when I’m around others. i wasn’t real crazy about my inlaws but there were times when I wished someone was around to help me.  I was in the service and then we moved up to NH and again, no foo around on either side, again. Sorry linda!!  I know how that is!!!   ( We did it alone too! Not something I could do to my kid though! If she needs me I am there!

same here.  I just needed space from the inlaws and my foo.  my son is a whole different ballgame.  I do wish I could still get some respite though but it isn’t covered in this state evidently.  my so can’t deal with him very much at all.  no patience nor the desire to try to understand it seems sometimes.  that is disturbing me a great deal right now. I’m used to it now and the "little" one is 20 and at least 5′10 and still growing. Very Big Grin How is he getting along in the new surroundings?

he stays in his room most the time except for appointments, meals and the occasional excusion to the mall or fireworks.  stuff like that.  He just can’t wait to get back to his computer, though and is very sullen and unsociable.  I’m hoping to find a youth group he’d consider trying.  He was in one in NH (ch*rch) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think you are very brave Linda  waves< <waves  nice to hear from ya.  I’ve started out on asarm and branched out. getting 2-c-reus now… I’m not brave at all though, J/c.  I have to clarify that.  Someone on asarm said I was too and I have to clear up that misconception.  I think if someone is brave, they do something [positive] knowing the consequences may be negative and they do it anyway.  I often do things without even caring enough to check into what may happen and there is a "what the h*ll" attached to it.  Kind of a resigned feeling of "it’s only me anyway" thing behind it. I know that isn’t the best way to think but we’re working on that one…still. OK  we can accept that you don’t feel that this is bravery! ) but…but…. to us.. the thought of it is real sceery!

ok, I can accept that may be how it’s perceived by others.  thanks for the compliment.  I just hope I didn’t make a mistake. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As far as posting on various groups goes…well…that depends on what someone has to loose.  If a person has others to watch out for and may suffer a great deal if they were located…the consequences become very high.  For me, there is no real consequences that I give a damn about.  My foo is all drunk, drugged out, d*ad or elsewhere and I doubt they’d even bother to find out where I wound up.  They never did when I was right there. Other perps are either d*ad or some stranger. I am unemployed so there’s no boss to search for me and I guess I have a pretty lousy attitude about bosses too. so I guess I rambled on too much about a simple polite statement.  sorry. I don’t like to let myself take credit for something I don’t deserve. Will you let youself take credit for "a very good rant"! ;o) Sorry that you had to have so many crappy people in your life linda!  :o(

grins, ok, I guess I can do that.  thanks J/c. there are lots of good people online and off to make up for the few from before. I thought you had gotten a newer one.  you were using the one you built before.  Not sure why I thought that. I wonder how that translates into Mac requirements?  power pc 604 or G-3? not sure what you have betsy. For us, cable was do-able since we paid for it anyway and we got in on a starter deal for new hookups when the finished installing the lines out here. Oh… we’ve upgraded pretty much everything except the Y2K handicapped 486 motherboard.. groan.. Looks like it will be quite a while before that happens!

I wish I could send you something.  Keep watching the papers and flyers.  we see used pc’s and parts fairly cheap all the time in the little local "nickel" paper. (all want ads) Good to hear from you linda! How’s the weather down there? Warm thoughts J/c

the weather is unbearably hot here.  and dry.  fire alerts all over.   it’s going to be around 110 next week  ick. enjoy your cool weather. linda — –~~There’s a difference between KNOWING the path…and WALKING the path~~

Response:

Question:

Hi everyone. 4 weeks off Zoloft(for Anxiety)- coping fairly well, some days really suck and others are fine. Apparently I do my current job to well or the company is desperate for help.  I dunno, but I am flattered that I am being asked.  My situation is this. I do not need the money ( I guess I could probably make $2. more per hour ) but Christmas is coming – It would help out (If I can stand to shop long enough –  I hate the hustle and bustle) I consider myself fairly intellegent and enjoy doing my job well and having people notice. I do want to be challenged mentally as well as with the anxiety. I do want to "HELP" my struggling boss trying to do 2 + jobs. But: I do not want to supervise a bunch of whining brats. I do not to run around the office like my hair is on fire. I do want to sleep at nite. I tend to (Process) things in my head over and over. I have a week to decide. My main concern is my mental health – I don’t want to stir up anything- but yet I don’t know if just taking the EASIER way – Is the best way to go through the rest of my life. (I’m 31) I guess I feel somewhat obligated to try this out (after all "they think pretty highly of me")- the Supervisor said I could return to my current position if I want to -but could I look him in the eye and ask to be demoted? He probably would talk me out of it just as he is trying to talk me into it. I know that none of you know me or the company I work for- but what do you think? Bonnie Before you buy.

Response:

Glad to hear you’re doing  well off med,and at your job,  BUT  give it a lot of thought before you take the promotion.  I got the shaft recently with a co. who loved me, bragged about me, put me in charge of buying as well as asst. mngr, but, then when I got ill they didn’t want me, harrassed me, lied about me, etc.  It’s much better to be loved where you are than to be treated so poorly.   My last job before this one,  demoted me   for getting ill and missing to much hard long hours, and the only satisfaction is knowing you did your best, and whatever makes us ill, we don;t ask for.  Mine was asthma, no mental problem at that time.    Anyway -Good Luck in your future, and with love and concern I will pray whatever decesion you make that God helps you to make the right one.  We are each diff. LOL Charisma  

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi everyone. 4 weeks off Zoloft(for Anxiety)- coping fairly well, some days really suck and others are fine. Apparently I do my current job to well or the company is desperate for help.  I dunno, but I am flattered that I am being asked.  My situation is this. I do not need the money ( I guess I could probably make $2. more per hour ) but Christmas is coming – It would help out (If I can stand to shop long enough –  I hate the hustle and bustle) I consider myself fairly intellegent and enjoy doing my job well and having people notice. I do want to be challenged mentally as well as with the anxiety. I do want to "HELP" my struggling boss trying to do 2 + jobs. But: I do not want to supervise a bunch of whining brats. I do not to run around the office like my hair is on fire. I do want to sleep at nite. I tend to (Process) things in my head over and over. I have a week to decide. My main concern is my mental health – I don’t want to stir up anything- but yet I don’t know if just taking the EASIER way – Is the best way to go through the rest of my life. (I’m 31) I guess I feel somewhat obligated to try this out (after all "they think pretty highly of me")- the Supervisor said I could return to my current position if I want to -but could I look him in the eye and ask to be demoted? He probably would talk me out of it just as he is trying to talk me into it. I know that none of you know me or the company I work for- but what do you think? Bonnie

Dear Bonnie, Congratulations on being offered a promotion, I am sure that had to make you feel good Only you can decide whether or not you should go for it. I think it is great that your boss would allow you to go back to your old position if need be. I wish you much luck in whatever you decide!! Take care. Jackie ~*~You may be deceived if you trust too much, but you will live in torment if

Response:

Hi, bonnie, Pat yourself on the back for me – it is a tremendous feeling to be noticed and given the chance for a promotion.  About ten years ago I was in the same situation and it made me feel wonderful.  but for many reasons, one being anxiety, I didn’t accept and to this day I know I made the right decision. Absolutely love my job and wouldn’t give it up unless I had to.  Not many people are this fortunate to love their jobs but when you have one you do enjoy it makes going to work much easier.  good luck on your decision making and please let us know wht you decide. smiles, elise

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi everyone. 4 weeks off Zoloft(for Anxiety)- coping fairly well, some days really suck and others are fine. Apparently I do my current job to well or the company is desperate for help.  I dunno, but I am flattered that I am being asked.  My situation is this. I do not need the money ( I guess I could probably make $2. more per hour ) but Christmas is coming – It would help out (If I can stand to shop long enough –  I hate the hustle and bustle) I consider myself fairly intellegent and enjoy doing my job well and having people notice. I do want to be challenged mentally as well as with the anxiety. I do want to "HELP" my struggling boss trying to do 2 + jobs. But: I do not want to supervise a bunch of whining brats. I do not to run around the office like my hair is on fire. I do want to sleep at nite. I tend to (Process) things in my head over and over. I have a week to decide. My main concern is my mental health – I don’t want to stir up anything- but yet I don’t know if just taking the EASIER way – Is the best way to go through the rest of my life. (I’m 31) I guess I feel somewhat obligated to try this out (after all "they think pretty highly of me")- the Supervisor said I could return to my current position if I want to -but could I look him in the eye and ask to be demoted? He probably would talk me out of it just as he is trying to talk me into it. I know that none of you know me or the company I work for- but what do you think? Bonnie Dear Bonnie, Congratulations on being offered a promotion, I am sure that had to make you feel good Only you can decide whether or not you should go for it. I think it is great that your boss would allow you to go back to your old position if need be. I wish you much luck in whatever you decide!! Take care. Jackie ~*~You may be deceived if you trust too much, but you will live in torment if

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi everyone. 4 weeks off Zoloft(for Anxiety)- coping fairly well, some days really suck and others are fine. Apparently I do my current job to well or the company is desperate for help.  I dunno, but I am flattered that I am being asked.  My situation is this. I do not need the money ( I guess I could probably make $2. more per hour ) but Christmas is coming – It would help out (If I can stand to shop long enough –  I hate the hustle and bustle) I consider myself fairly intellegent and enjoy doing my job well and having people notice. I do want to be challenged mentally as well as with the anxiety. I do want to "HELP" my struggling boss trying to do 2 + jobs. But: I do not want to supervise a bunch of whining brats. I do not to run around the office like my hair is on fire. I do want to sleep at nite. I tend to (Process) things in my head over and over. I have a week to decide. My main concern is my mental health – I don’t want to stir up anything- but yet I don’t know if just taking the EASIER way – Is the best way to go through the rest of my life. (I’m 31) I guess I feel somewhat obligated to try this out (after all "they think pretty highly of me")- the Supervisor said I could return to my current position if I want to – but could I look him in the eye and ask to be demoted? He probably would talk me out of it just as he is trying to talk me into it. I know that none of you know me or the company I work for- but what do you think? Bonnie Before you buy. I haven’t decided for sure yet.  But I think I’m going to take a

chance and do the thing I fear most.  I appreciate all of your advice- I’m going into this with my eyes wide open- and if it doesn’t work out and they don’t let me do my old job- well then maybe it’s time to move on. (I fear that too) I will keep you posted. Best of Health to you all, Bonnie Before you buy.

Response:

Question:

Thinking of you, Sandra, & hope your weekend is fine & dandy! My ex was always turned on by the thought of a woman squatting… Aware1 — Toto… I have a feeling we’re not in Kansas anymore.

L-O-L!!!! That’s the reason I was a little leery of posting that! Thanks, Aware. I think the rest of the weekend will go well. Things always seem to go better after a night out with TJOML…..Everyone needs to find one magician in their life, and keep him/her sacred…. Sandra

Response:

Thinking of you, Sandra, & hope your weekend is fine & dandy! My ex was always turned on by the thought of a woman squatting… Aware1 — Toto… I have a feeling we’re not in Kansas anymore.

Response:

The collapse is almost over. I’m exhausted but okay. I managed to make myself go out last night. I’m so glad I did. It was one of the rare times The Joy of My Life and I could go out after his play was done. He was Marc Antony in Julius Caesar, this time, and he really rocked. So we went out to celebrate at the actor’s hangout here in town, and I sat surrounded by handsome men and  beautiful women until the pub kicked us out. For a little while, it was like the old times – he didn’t even mention his lady. He held court, and I was the lady in waiting once again – which I don’t mind in the least. It’s a role I rarely get to play, and therefore, I never get tired of. I managed to make rehearsal today before I collapsed again for the rest of the afternoon. I finally have enough energy to clean house. I drank and drank and drank water today. It’s my drug of choice from now on. The last few weeks, I discovered I could play instruments better (heads, up, Trev, this may work for you) and, ladies and gentlemen, a few minutes ago I discovered I can squat. Now, that may not seem like much to you ( and maybe a little graceless for me to mention) but I have not been able to use my knees or legs to squat in – oh my God – six years. The interesting thing about this, for me, is though my muscle control is now better, the tremor is actually a little worse. I think that may be the increased electrolyte activity. So, Trev, my sister in trembles, this is a down side, but one I can still live with. I’m trying to counter it with massage and back muscle exercise ( I use my back muscles to control the tremors in my arms.) Soooooo….I’m just taking a break from cleaning, and I’m going back to it. I tried posting earlier today, but didn’t really feel like going through stuff yet, so I’ve deleted most posts. ASD overload. I hope you all are having a good weekend. Sandra

Response:

Hey Sandra. Glad you had a good time! I had a great time going out with my friends the other night. Unfortunately though, water was NOT my drug of choice. Oh well…

Well…… last night I had to do the beer thang meself. Otherwise TJOML would drink the whole pitcher ! Take care and I’ll keep you updated on the implant surgery for the tremor. I’m meeting the docs in a couple of weeks to discuss the matter. Love, Trev

I didn’t know it was an implant. I thought the surgery cut a synaptic connection, as in the surgery for Parkinson’s… In any case, good luck with it. Someday, maybe I’ll get fed up with being a human vibrator and have it done myself….. Sandra – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text — Trevorskah THIS IS NOT A TEST ICQ#35428694 The collapse is almost over. I’m exhausted but okay. I managed to make myself go out last night. I’m so glad I did. It was one of the rare times The Joy of My Life and I could go out after his play was done. He was Marc Antony in Julius Caesar, this time, and he really rocked. So we went out to celebrate at the actor’s hangout here in town, and I sat surrounded by handsome men and  beautiful women until the pub kicked us out. For a little while, it was like the old times – he didn’t even mention his lady. He held court, and I was the lady in waiting once again – which I don’t mind in the least. It’s a role I rarely get to play, and therefore, I never get tired of. I managed to make rehearsal today before I collapsed again for the rest of the afternoon. I finally have enough energy to clean house. I drank and drank and drank water today. It’s my drug of choice from now on. The last few weeks, I discovered I could play instruments better (heads, up, Trev, this may work for you) and, ladies and gentlemen, a few minutes ago I discovered I can squat. Now, that may not seem like much to you ( and maybe a little graceless for me to mention) but I have not been able to use my knees or legs to squat in – oh my God – six years. The interesting thing about this, for me, is though my muscle control is now better, the tremor is actually a little worse. I think that may be the increased electrolyte activity. So, Trev, my sister in trembles, this is a down side, but one I can still live with. I’m trying to counter it with massage and back muscle exercise ( I use my back muscles to control the tremors in my arms.) Soooooo….I’m just taking a break from cleaning, and I’m going back to it. I tried posting earlier today, but didn’t really feel like going through stuff yet, so I’ve deleted most posts. ASD overload. I hope you all are having a good weekend. Sandra

Response:

Hey Sandra. Glad you had a good time! I had a great time going out with my friends the other night. Unfortunately though, water was NOT my drug of choice. Oh well… Take care and I’ll keep you updated on the implant surgery for the tremor. I’m meeting the docs in a couple of weeks to discuss the matter. Love, Trev — Trevorskah THIS IS NOT A TEST ICQ#35428694

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The collapse is almost over. I’m exhausted but okay. I managed to make myself go out last night. I’m so glad I did. It was one of the rare times The Joy of My Life and I could go out after his play was done. He was Marc Antony in Julius Caesar, this time, and he really rocked. So we went out to celebrate at the actor’s hangout here in town, and I sat surrounded by handsome men and  beautiful women until the pub kicked us out. For a little while, it was like the old times – he didn’t even mention his lady. He held court, and I was the lady in waiting once again – which I don’t mind in the least. It’s a role I rarely get to play, and therefore, I never get tired of. I managed to make rehearsal today before I collapsed again for the rest of the afternoon. I finally have enough energy to clean house. I drank and drank and drank water today. It’s my drug of choice from now on. The last few weeks, I discovered I could play instruments better (heads, up, Trev, this may work for you) and, ladies and gentlemen, a few minutes ago I discovered I can squat. Now, that may not seem like much to you ( and maybe a little graceless for me to mention) but I have not been able to use my knees or legs to squat in – oh my God – six years. The interesting thing about this, for me, is though my muscle control is now better, the tremor is actually a little worse. I think that may be the increased electrolyte activity. So, Trev, my sister in trembles, this is a down side, but one I can still live with. I’m trying to counter it with massage and back muscle exercise ( I use my back muscles to control the tremors in my arms.) Soooooo….I’m just taking a break from cleaning, and I’m going back to it. I tried posting earlier today, but didn’t really feel like going through stuff yet, so I’ve deleted most posts. ASD overload. I hope you all are having a good weekend. Sandra

Response:

Question:

After a couple wrestless nights, a few fights with my concience, and an exchange of words with a few good detectives, I’ve decided to appologize for being untruthfull and misleading. In a recent post I signed my name as Dr. Robert T. Kralik MD. The truth is, I don’t even have my first degree. But I swear by the good grace of God, someday I will have my Ph.D in mental health, and I will be truely helpfull to my community. I’ve confessed, and I’m sorry, but now it’s up to you to find it in your heart to forgive me. Signed, plain old rob kralik

Hi Rob, It took a lot of courage to post the above.  Sure you are forgiven. You have a talent for writing and sometimes we who are depressed help each other almost as much as our docs help us. Hang in there. J9 "The future is ‘NOW’" Warner Wolf…Imus In The Morning (IITM)

Response:

Signed, plain old rob kralik

Just because you’re not a doctor does not mean you don’t deserve to capitalize on what you have already going for you. try writing "Robert Kralik"  and stand back and take a look at it. Looks good to me.

Response:

Found a fellow named GOSH! posted this to the ASAD NG, yet it is missing here. Good possibility it was cancelled, so I will post it here for him. I think it’s a good and worthwile post.

  Sure Rob, I hold no grudge, and I do wish you a load of luck cause   you’l need it. Your appology a response to the tiger twisting your scrotum   till your balls popped out may help your memory.   Balls or not, many  won’t forget your name for a long time. Putting PhD after it down   the road will evoke many recalls, or restimulations, which you will learn   about down that same road. What’s the real fix Robert?  I don’t know,   but you sure got yourself into a genuine "Fix".   Sure glad for Willie Bell’s stories,  and Mom reading Uncle Rhemus   to me and that I never grabbed that tar baby, BTW Rob, dreams are our greatest friends, and motivators. We must remember what "Only In your dreams" means,  (Discriminate) and learn how to make the good ones come "TRUE." Good Luck with your studies, your intellect, appropriately harnessed, will carry you far GOSH!   GOSH!     After a couple wrestless nights, a few fights with my concience,   and     an     exchange of words with a few good detectives, I’ve decided to     appologize     for being untruthfull and misleading. In a recent post I signed my     name     as Dr. Robert T. Kralik MD. The truth is, I don’t even have my   first     degree. But I swear by the good grace of God, someday I will have   my     Ph.D in     mental health, and I will be truely helpfull to my community. I’ve     confessed, and I’m sorry, but now it’s up to you to find it in   your     heart     to forgive me.     Signed, plain old rob kralik – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – After a couple wrestless nights, a few fights with my concience, and an exchange of words with a few good detectives, I’ve decided to appologize for being untruthfull and misleading. In a recent post I signed my name as Dr. Robert T. Kralik MD. The truth is, I don’t even have my first degree. But I swear by the good grace of God, someday I will have my Ph.D in mental health, and I will be truely helpfull to my community. I’ve confessed, and I’m sorry, but now it’s up to you to find it in your heart to forgive me. Signed, plain old rob kralik

Response:

whoa…wait a sec….the fact that one would propagate such untruths in the first place that robert may have a disturbance of character! and he wants a phd in mental health?….. — Jon Mankowski, L.C.S.W. Far Point Rural Behavioral Health Northern California FAX- 916-474-1693 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – After a couple wrestless nights, a few fights with my concience, and an exchange of words with a few good detectives, I’ve decided to appologize for being untruthfull and misleading. In a recent post I signed my name as Dr. Robert T. Kralik MD. The truth is, I don’t even have my first degree. But I swear by the good grace of God, someday I will have my Ph.D in mental health, and I will be truely helpfull to my community. I’ve confessed, and I’m sorry, but now it’s up to you to find it in your heart to forgive me. That’s "restless", "conscience", "truly" . You’ve got the handwriting part down already. I forsee a great future for you in politics… —    Alex Colvin

Response:

After a couple wrestless nights, a few fights with my concience, and an exchange of words with a few good detectives, I’ve decided to appologize for being untruthfull and misleading. In a recent post I signed my name as Dr. Robert T. Kralik MD. The truth is, I don’t even have my first degree. But I swear by the good grace of God, someday I will have my Ph.D in mental health, and I will be truely helpfull to my community. I’ve confessed, and I’m sorry, but now it’s up to you to find it in your heart to forgive me.

That’s "restless", "conscience", "truly" . You’ve got the handwriting part down already. I forsee a great future for you in politics… —         Alex Colvin

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – After a couple wrestless nights, a few fights with my concience, and an exchange of words with a few good detectives, I’ve decided to appologize for being untruthfull and misleading. In a recent post I signed my name as Dr. Robert T. Kralik MD. The truth is, I don’t even have my first degree. But I swear by the good grace of God, someday I will have my Ph.D in mental health, and I will be truely helpfull to my community. I’ve confessed, and I’m sorry, but now it’s up to you to find it in your heart to forgive me. Signed, plain old rob kralikDoes this mean my Rx is no good?

Response:

whoa…wait a sec….the fact that one would propagate such untruths in the first place that robert may have a disturbance of character! and he wants a phd in mental health?…..

I have to agree that although I bear no grudge against Robert for making a mistake and then apologizing for it, it is essential that he figure out what allowed him to do it in the first place and resolve that problem BEFORE getting into a position where people need to trust him with, in some cases, their lives. In other words, he’s OK by me, but in his present condition I don’t think he’s a safe risk as a mental health professional.  Gotta solve his own problems FIRST. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text — Jon Mankowski, L.C.S.W. Far Point Rural Behavioral Health Northern California FAX- 916-474-1693 After a couple wrestless nights, a few fights with my concience, and an exchange of words with a few good detectives, I’ve decided to appologize for being untruthfull and misleading. In a recent post I signed my name as Dr. Robert T. Kralik MD. The truth is, I don’t even have my first degree. But I swear by the good grace of God, someday I will have my Ph.D in mental health, and I will be truely helpfull to my community. I’ve confessed, and I’m sorry, but now it’s up to you to find it in your heart to forgive me. That’s "restless", "conscience", "truly" . You’ve got the handwriting part down already. I forsee a great future for you in politics… —        Alex Colvin

Don Stauffer | Email is welcome except solicitation, which | | will be forwarded to domain Administrators. |

Response:

This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit         I think I need to agree with Jon here.  I think it is commendable that Rob was able to come forward and confess his mistake and his goals and aspirations for an advanced degree in mental health are equally commendable.  However, as many hinted here, people are extremely vulnerable and often naive in many ways.  A false posting can sometimes be detrimental to the health of an individual if posted by someone claiming a certain level of expertise and responsibility.  This is not to say that anyone with the title "doctor" is without fault.  Certainly, we all know this to be the contrary.  Just as it is important to receive feedback and criticism from a group or individual, it is equally important to be able to understand and identify the source of such feedback.  Specific feedback from a doctor or a proclaimed "doctor" should be weighed from that perspective, while that from a fellow patient should also be weighed.  Each is with tremendous merits and drawbacks.           To Rob:  apology accepted and welcome.  good luck in your studies, I am sure that you will do well.  Remember, that one’s degree and station in life holds far more connotations and responsibility than simply a set of initials.  As much as the letters MD  or Ph.D. may seem to be a statement of status and accomplishment, they are laden with heavy responsibility as well and not to be taken lightly. Respectfully, Michael J. Higgins, MD  (effective May 1997) http://www.erols.com/drhiggy Joint Capital Area Family Practice-Psychiatry Residency Program After a couple wrestless nights, a few fights with my concience, and an exchange of words with a few good detectives, I’ve decided to appologize for being untruthfull and misleading. In a recent post I signed my name as Dr. Robert T. Kralik MD. The truth is, I don’t even have my first degree. But I swear by the good grace of God, someday I will have my Ph.D in mental health, and I will be truely helpfull to my community. I’ve confessed, and I’m sorry, but now it’s up to you to find it in your heart to forgive me. Signed, plain old rob kralik

Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html<head</head<BODY bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"<p<font size=3D2 = color=3D"#000000" face=3D"Rockwell"&#009;I think I need to agree with = Jon here. &nbsp;I think it is commendable that Rob was able to come = forward and confess his mistake and his goals and aspirations for an = advanced degree in mental health are equally commendable. &nbsp;However, = as many hinted here, people are extremely vulnerable and often naive in = many ways. &nbsp;A false posting can sometimes be detrimental to the = health of an individual if posted by someone claiming a certain level of = expertise and responsibility. &nbsp;This is not to say that anyone with = the title &quot;doctor&quot; is without fault. &nbsp;Certainly, we all = know this to be the contrary. &nbsp;Just as it is important to receive = feedback and criticism from a group or individual, it is equally = important to be able to understand and identify the source of such = feedback. &nbsp;Specific feedback from a doctor or a proclaimed = &quot;doctor&quot; should be weighed from that perspective, while that = from a fellow patient should also be weighed. &nbsp;Each is with = tremendous merits and drawbacks. &nbsp;<br<br&#009;To Rob: = &nbsp;apology accepted and welcome. &nbsp;good luck in your studies, I = am sure that you will do well. &nbsp;Remember, that one’s degree and = station in life holds far more connotations and responsibility than = simply a set of initials. &nbsp;As much as the letters MD &nbsp;or Ph.D. = may seem to be a statement of status and accomplishment, they are laden = with heavy responsibility as well and not to be taken = lightly.<br<brRespectfully,<br<brMichael J. Higgins, MD = &nbsp;(effective May = Capital Area Family Practice-Psychiatry Residency = Program<br<br<br<br<br<brRobert Kralik &lt;<font = color=3D"#000000"&gt; wrote in article &lt;<font = net.mb.ca</u<font color=3D"#000000"&gt;…<br&gt; <br&gt; After a = couple wrestless nights, a few fights with my concience, and an <br&gt; = exchange of words with a few good detectives, I’ve decided to appologize = <br&gt; for being untruthfull and misleading. In a recent post I signed = my name <br&gt; as Dr. Robert T. Kralik MD. The truth is, I don’t even = have my first <br&gt; degree. But I swear by the good grace of God, = someday I will have my Ph.D in <br&gt; mental health, and I will be = truely helpfull to my community. I’ve <br&gt; confessed, and I’m sorry, = but now it’s up to you to find it in your heart <br&gt; to forgive = me.<br&gt; Signed, plain old rob kralik<br&gt; </p </font</font</font</font</font</body</html

Response:

Dear Stewart and a few others:   I’m rather surprised that Jon is the only one who has expressed anger over this. Or at least *seems* to be the only one.

Sorry.  I did not take Jon to task for being angry with Robert (yikes, you really gotta follow this thread to understand this post).  I took Jon to task for suggesting that someone with a clinical psychological problem would not make a good mental health professional.  (You might want to read "Welcome to my country", a really good easy to read book that helps to shorten the distance between "us" and "them".)   I think I was probably as angry with Robert as Jon was.  I actually sent a copy of an earlier (IMHO) obnoxious post of Robert’s to his ISP. I posted a copy of what I had done to the newsgroup (alt.support.depression) and someone there e-mailed me some personal information/speculation about Robert.  I told Robert in e-mail that I was seriously thinking of sending a copy of his impersonation of an MD to his ISP.  I asked him if he was an MD, an MD with a mood disorder, or perhaps just someone with a mood disorder.  I was in no hurry.  He e-mailed me an appology and posted one. He told me a bit about his personal life.  *I* felt that was enough to invite him to post more about himself to alt.support.depression.   I did NOT say that I was not angry with his posts, nor did I mean to suggest it.  I just took one thing at a time.  Sorry I didn’t give you more background with my last posts. Sincerely Stewart — The Metaphor Man

Response:

Relax, old buddy. I’m writing to you from alt.support.attn-deficit.  Normally I wold trim my header, but I don’t know what is your "home base" NG. Maybe what’s-his-name’s apology was sincere, maybe it wasn’t.  Maybe he is sincere today and maybe tomorrow will be different.  Your skepticism was a useful expression of what hundreds, maybe thousands, of others probably thought, but didn’t post.   A number of others apparently had different reactions. Golly.  Just sorta like real life to be so ambiguous.  You seem to be a stand-up type of guy.  Don’t go wishy-washy now. "Often wrong, but never in doubt," is my motto. As far as I’m concerned, you are more than welcome to express any of your opinions in alt.support.attn-deficit whenever you wish.  Even, or especially, the ones with which I may not agree.  As a group, however, we tend to not be respecters of credentials and I have observed a tendency to mock "authority". Makes for a lively discussion. In other words, I forgive you for not forgiving what’s-his-name, and proceed at your own risk Mr. L.C.S.W. Best wishes, Tom Fox – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -lookie here… a lot of folks on this list are vulnerable. Vulnerable to grasping at nearly anyhing to allieviate their pain. What i saw on this list were people too quick to forgive an imposter This bothered me so i made a remark regarding his character. Look closely at his mea culpa. i was not "throwing stones" at the fellow. yet i did not want to see him get off the hook so easily. Afterall, he was looking outside himself for forgiveness when in fact he appears to have a lot of his own character searching to do. — Jon Mankowski, L.C.S.W. Far Point Rural Behavioral Health Northern California FAX- 916-474-1693 Oh, dear, whoa…wait a sec….the fact that one would propagate such untruths in the first place that robert may have a disturbance of character! and he wants a phd in mental health?….. — Jon Mankowski, L.C.S.W. Far Point Rural Behavioral Health Northern California FAX- 916-474-1693 After a couple wrestless nights, a few fights with my concience, and an exchange of words with a few good detectives, I’ve decided to appologize for being untruthfull and misleading. In a recent post I signed my name as Dr. Robert T. Kralik MD. The truth is, I don’t even have my first degree. But I swear by the good grace of God, someday I will have my Ph.D in mental health, and I will be truely helpfull to my community. I’ve confessed, and I’m sorry, but now it’s up to you to find it in your heart to forgive me. That’s "restless", "conscience", "truly" . You’ve got the handwriting part down already. I forsee a great future for you in politics… —       Alex Colvin jon.  I guess I’d better come clean – I’m Not really a Goddess.    (Although Toci is, and I’m using her name.)  Or are you just kidding, and not really a social worker?  

Response:

lookie here… A lot of folks on this list are vulnerable.  Vulnerable to grasping at nearly anyhing to allieviate their pain.

     I am sure it does not matter, but I do not know what list/group you are reading this in.  I am reading alt.support.depression (ASD).  We get lots and LOTS of trolls.  Some times it is best to invite them to join the group as a "member" rather than as a troll.  On the other hand, we also make a fine troll stew with SPAM salad.  We work with what we have. What I saw on this list were people too quick to forgive an imposter This bothered me so i made a remark regarding his character. Look closely at his mea culpa. I was not "throwing stones" at the fellow.  

     Here I think you are wrong.  I think you made a really snide comment about how he shouldn’t aspire to work in the mental health field since he has problems of his own.  It sure sounded to me like you picked up a stone from your own yard and through it at his window. Yet I did not want to see him get off the hook so easily. Afterall, he was looking outside himself for forgiveness when in fact he appears to have a lot of his own character searching to do.

     Here I think you are right.  I too think he has a lot of his own character searching to do.  However, given what he did initially (pose in a relatively poorly hidden manner as an MD on a usenet newsgroup), I think he did the perfectly correct thing to appologize.  Now did he learn anything from this episode??  My guess is probably the same as your guess.  Not much, but maybe a little. Just my 2 cents. Sincerely Stewart — The Metaphor Man

Response:

After a couple wrestless nights, a few fights with my concience, and an exchange of words with a few good detectives, I’ve decided to appologize for being untruthfull and misleading. In a recent post I signed my name as Dr. Robert T. Kralik MD. The truth is, I don’t even have my first degree. But I swear by the good grace of God, someday I will have my Ph.D in mental health, and I will be truely helpfull to my community. I’ve confessed, and I’m sorry, but now it’s up to you to find it in your heart to forgive me. Signed, plain old rob kralik

I don’t know about the other groups, or the other people on alt.support.depression (ASD).  I only speak for myself.  Welcome to the group Rob.  Pull up a chair.  Tell us what is going on with you. Sincerely Stewart — The Metaphor Man

Response:

whoa…wait a sec….the fact that one would propagate such untruths in the first place that robert may have a disturbance of character! and he wants a phd in mental health?….. — Jon Mankowski, L.C.S.W. Far Point Rural Behavioral Health

So Jon, do you think that your response here was the sensitive and caring sort of thing that want to see from our "Far Point Rural Behavioral Health" professionals?? How does that people in glass houses thing go again??? Sincerely Stewart — The Metaphor Man

Response:

lookie here… a lot of folks on this list are vulnerable. Vulnerable to grasping at nearly anyhing to allieviate their pain. What i saw on this list were people too quick to forgive an imposter This bothered me so i made a remark regarding his character. Look closely at his mea culpa. i was not "throwing stones" at the fellow. yet i did not want to see him get off the hook so easily. Afterall, he was looking outside himself for forgiveness when in fact he appears to have a lot of his own character searching to do. — Jon Mankowski, L.C.S.W. Far Point Rural Behavioral Health Northern California FAX- 916-474-1693 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Oh, dear, whoa…wait a sec….the fact that one would propagate such untruths in the first place that robert may have a disturbance of character! and he wants a phd in mental health?….. — Jon Mankowski, L.C.S.W. Far Point Rural Behavioral Health Northern California FAX- 916-474-1693 After a couple wrestless nights, a few fights with my concience, and an exchange of words with a few good detectives, I’ve decided to appologize for being untruthfull and misleading. In a recent post I signed my name as Dr. Robert T. Kralik MD. The truth is, I don’t even have my first degree. But I swear by the good grace of God, someday I will have my Ph.D in mental health, and I will be truely helpfull to my community. I’ve confessed, and I’m sorry, but now it’s up to you to find it in your heart to forgive me. That’s "restless", "conscience", "truly" . You’ve got the handwriting part down already. I forsee a great future for you in politics… —   Alex Colvin jon.  I guess I’d better come clean – I’m Not really a Goddess.    (Although Toci is, and I’m using her name.)  Or are you just kidding, and not really a social worker?  

Response:

Oh, dear, – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – whoa…wait a sec….the fact that one would propagate such untruths in the first place that robert may have a disturbance of character! and he wants a phd in mental health?….. — Jon Mankowski, L.C.S.W. Far Point Rural Behavioral Health Northern California FAX- 916-474-1693 After a couple wrestless nights, a few fights with my concience, and an exchange of words with a few good detectives, I’ve decided to appologize for being untruthfull and misleading. In a recent post I signed my name as Dr. Robert T. Kralik MD. The truth is, I don’t even have my first degree. But I swear by the good grace of God, someday I will have my Ph.D in mental health, and I will be truely helpfull to my community. I’ve confessed, and I’m sorry, but now it’s up to you to find it in your heart to forgive me. That’s "restless", "conscience", "truly" . You’ve got the handwriting part down already. I forsee a great future for you in politics… —        Alex Colvin

jon.  I guess I’d better come clean – I’m Not really a Goddess.    (Although Toci is, and I’m using her name.)  Or are you just kidding, and not really a social worker?  

Response:

Sorry to spoil your "provider fantasies" Jon but many of us think our mental health providers are much more in need of intervention than we are. Carma – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Oh, dear, whoa…wait a sec….the fact that one would propagate such untruths in the first place that robert may have a disturbance of character! and he wants a phd in mental health?….. — Jon Mankowski, L.C.S.W. Far Point Rural Behavioral Health Northern California FAX- 916-474-1693 After a couple wrestless nights, a few fights with my concience, and an exchange of words with a few good detectives, I’ve decided to appologize for being untruthfull and misleading. In a recent post I signed my name as Dr. Robert T. Kralik MD. The truth is, I don’t even have my first degree. But I swear by the good grace of God, someday I will have my Ph.D in mental health, and I will be truely helpfull to my community. I’ve confessed, and I’m sorry, but now it’s up to you to find it in your heart to forgive me. That’s "restless", "conscience", "truly" . You’ve got the handwriting part down already. I forsee a great future for you in politics… —      Alex Colvin jon.  I guess I’d better come clean – I’m Not really a Goddess.  (Although Toci is, and I’m using her name.)  Or are you just kidding, and not really a social worker?

Response:

Jon, It must have been nice to be so pure and perfect your entire life. When you go to confess your sins I guess you won’t have anything to say. Anything is possible.  People make mistakes and learn from them. Why shouldn’t he?  Would you hold it against him forever?  "Let he whom has not sinned cast the first stone" (or something like that), remember Mr. Mankowski? I don’t know why I’ve been so kind lately, I’m disgusting myself. I’m going to have to be nasty to even it out so people will like me again. Watch out everyone!;-) Cambela You suck!  (Its a start) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – whoa…wait a sec….the fact that one would propagate such untruths in the first place that robert may have a disturbance of character! and he wants a phd in mental health?….. — Jon Mankowski, L.C.S.W. Far Point Rural Behavioral Health Northern California FAX- 916-474-1693 After a couple wrestless nights, a few fights with my concience, and an exchange of words with a few good detectives, I’ve decided to appologize for being untruthfull and misleading. In a recent post I signed my name as Dr. Robert T. Kralik MD. The truth is, I don’t even have my first degree. But I swear by the good grace of God, someday I will have my Ph.D in mental health, and I will be truely helpfull to my community. I’ve confessed, and I’m sorry, but now it’s up to you to find it in your heart to forgive me. That’s "restless", "conscience", "truly" . You’ve got the handwriting part down already. I forsee a great future for you in politics… —       Alex Colvin

Response:

While I was busy reporting email solicitations on Tue, 22 Apr 1997 My mom worked as Office Administrator for County Mental Health for 25 years….  can’t tell you how many times she has said to me (paraphrasing), "The reason they are so good at helping people is because they have been or are screwed up themselves.  Therefore, they are very good at understanding why the rest of us are screwed up."

… but haven’t got a clue what to do about it. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – lookie here… A lot of folks on this list are vulnerable.  Vulnerable to grasping at nearly anyhing to allieviate their pain.     I am sure it does not matter, but I do not know what list/group you are reading this in.  I am reading alt.support.depression (ASD).  We get lots and LOTS of trolls.  Some times it is best to invite them to join the group as a "member" rather than as a troll.  On the other hand, we also make a fine troll stew with SPAM salad.  We work with what we have. What I saw on this list were people too quick to forgive an imposter This bothered me so i made a remark regarding his character. Look closely at his mea culpa. I was not "throwing stones" at the fellow.       Here I think you are wrong.  I think you made a really snide comment about how he shouldn’t aspire to work in the mental health field since he has problems of his own.  It sure sounded to me like you picked up a stone from your own yard and through it at his window. Yet I did not want to see him get off the hook so easily. Afterall, he was looking outside himself for forgiveness when in fact he appears to have a lot of his own character searching to do.     Here I think you are right.  I too think he has a lot of his own character searching to do.  However, given what he did initially (pose in a relatively poorly hidden manner as an MD on a usenet newsgroup), I think he did the perfectly correct thing to appologize.  Now did he learn anything from this episode??  My guess is probably the same as your guess.  Not much, but maybe a little. Just my 2 cents. Sincerely Stewart — The Metaphor Man

Don Stauffer | Email is welcome except solicitation, which | | will be forwarded to domain Administrators. |

Response:

In article After a couple wrestless nights, a few fights with my concience, and an exchange of words with a few good detectives, I’ve decided to appologize for being untruthfull and misleading. In a recent post I signed my name as Dr. Robert T. Kralik MD. The truth is, I don’t even have my first degree. But I swear by the good grace of God, someday I will have my Ph.D in mental health, and I will be truely helpfull to my community. I’ve confessed, and I’m sorry, but now it’s up to you to find it in your heart to forgive me.

I forgive you.   Mental health, ay??  You *OBVIOUSLY* picked the right field! Do us *BOTH* a big fat favor, dont do something *THAT* damned stupid agian. I forgive you.. were all human.. *JUST DONT DO THAT AGIAN!!* Signed, plain old rob kralik

– The *REAL* Internet users prayer: "Lord, I pray that spam will disappare from the Internet. Lord, I ask if this is to be done, may it be soon. Lord, you know how fustrating it is to find real and valuable information while wadeing throught the garbage. Thank you Lord, Aman"

Response:

whoa…wait a sec….the fact that one would propagate such untruths in the first place that robert may have a disturbance of character! and he wants a phd in mental health?….. — Jon Mankowski, L.C.S.W. Far Point Rural Behavioral Health So Jon, do you think that your response here was the sensitive and caring sort of thing that want to see from our "Far Point Rural Behavioral Health" professionals?? How does that people in glass houses thing go again??? Sincerely Stewart

        Dear Stewart and a few others:         I’m rather surprised that Jon is the only one who has expressed anger over this. Or at least *seems* to be the only one. Now I had no involvement with the individual who lied so I wasn’t hurt or so much as bothered by his actions. On the other hand, if I had been involved and had trusted the so called credentials, I would have been terribly hurt and quite possibly angry as hell. I just wonder if anyone was truly harmed or not.         I think in the short run it once again points out how easily the "anonymity" of the Net can be abused. Therefore we should be as careful here as in the outside world when choosing who to confide in.         One other thing. The comment in regards to Jon’s job. I used to be a mechanic, in fact, a damn good one until my hands were damaged. Many people were quite happy with the work I did and I had no worries about holding a job. On the other hand, if you were to have seen my car you would have wondered who is the idiot who would drive that piece of crap. What Jon does professionally and what he does personally can and probably is two different things. I really don’t think dragging Jon’s job in here will achieve anything other then aggravating the situation.         Just my thoughts on the matter.         Peter Something Evil this way comes.

Response:

My mom worked as Office Administrator for County Mental Health for 25 years….  can’t tell you how many times she has said to me (paraphrasing), "The reason they are so good at helping people is because they have been or are screwed up themselves.  Therefore, they are very good at understanding why the rest of us are screwed up." – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – lookie here… A lot of folks on this list are vulnerable.  Vulnerable to grasping at nearly anyhing to allieviate their pain.     I am sure it does not matter, but I do not know what list/group you are reading this in.  I am reading alt.support.depression (ASD).  We get lots and LOTS of trolls.  Some times it is best to invite them to join the group as a "member" rather than as a troll.  On the other hand, we also make a fine troll stew with SPAM salad.  We work with what we have. What I saw on this list were people too quick to forgive an imposter This bothered me so i made a remark regarding his character. Look closely at his mea culpa. I was not "throwing stones" at the fellow.       Here I think you are wrong.  I think you made a really snide comment about how he shouldn’t aspire to work in the mental health field since he has problems of his own.  It sure sounded to me like you picked up a stone from your own yard and through it at his window. Yet I did not want to see him get off the hook so easily. Afterall, he was looking outside himself for forgiveness when in fact he appears to have a lot of his own character searching to do.     Here I think you are right.  I too think he has a lot of his own character searching to do.  However, given what he did initially (pose in a relatively poorly hidden manner as an MD on a usenet newsgroup), I think he did the perfectly correct thing to appologize.  Now did he learn anything from this episode??  My guess is probably the same as your guess.  Not much, but maybe a little. Just my 2 cents. Sincerely Stewart — The Metaphor Man

Response:

Sure, I’d love to tell all about myself to you guys, but you’ll have to give it some time. Unfortunately I am suffering from severe depression and effexor withdrawal simultaneously dispite the fact that I’m tapering. A funny thing is, I have develloped a kinship with this depression, does this mean I am a masochist? Rabbio

No problem.  We all deal with our cycles of activity and inactivity.  Post when you can. Yup, after a while depression becomes a part of you.  I say "I have a cold", meaning it is separate from me.  Something that *I* "have", like I have a pair of shoes.  But I say "I am depressed", because it is a part of who I am.  So how do I get rid of part of who I am without dying just a little??  It is scarry stuff to change.  How do I know there is anything there behind my depression.  What if I lose the depression only to find that I have lost EVERYTHING??  It is NOT easy stuff to change.  The people who says it is, have not changed anything but their shoes recently. Just my 2 cents of course…. Sincerely Stewart — The Metaphor Man

Response:

You were brave to confess.  You did the right thing by doing it publically.  If others condemn you for it, don’t listen to them. I wish I had friends like you. mari

Response:

I was sincere yesterday, and I’m sincere today. I’m still sorry.

Robert, to reduce the clutter I have started a new thread and kept it to ASD only.   So, you want to tell us anything more about yourself other than that you are sorry?? Sincerely Stewart — The Metaphor Man

Response:

Just drop me an email if you’d like to subscribe and get the full newsletter. Brian             Living with Schizophrenia – A Free Periodic Newsletter                Brought to you by http://www.schizophrenia.com                           Issue #47 – April 22nd, 1997                  A Summary of Schizophrenia News and Events        Note: Please forward this newsletter to others who might benefit.             To Subscribe or Unsubscribe send a note to Brian Chiko   Back issues of this newsletter are available at the following web address:              http://www.schizophrenia.com/news/NEWS1.html Contents: Letters to the Editor: Avoiding weight problems associated with anti-psychotic medications? Your assistance needed in Research Effort in Schizophrenia Genetics Success Stories – Nick’s Story Info Needed on Effectiveness of New Medications – Fighting Health Care Changes MH Providers Bring ANTITRUST Suit Against Nine MH Managed Care Groups Working Memory and Schizophrenia – from Pittsburgh Post-Gazette New Janssen Person to Person program for Schizophrenia – Covered by DJ Jaffe

Response:

Question:

Where do I find veterinarian supply companies?   Maybe I’m being lazy here, but if you know I’d appreciate it. I’ve been to farm supply companies but don’t remember seeing tryptophan.  But then I was there for antibiotics myself. (worked great too!!) Thanks, dn

snipped for brevity – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – LT is available in 100 g. or larger quantities from veterinary suppliers, at a cost substantially less than prescription LT, though still more than the OTC product once cost. Veterinary LT is molecularly identical to the tryptophan we are interested in here, and purity and quality control are probably higher than most old OTC products. One caveat: if you are taking a SSRI (Prozac, Paxil, Zoloft, Effexor) antidepressent, concurrent LT use is strongly contradicated, as taking both together can produce the potentially lethal ’serotonin syndrome,’ due to toxic levels of 5-HT in the body. –Will

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Where do I find veterinarian supply companies?   Maybe I’m being lazy here, but if you know I’d appreciate it. I’ve been to farm supply companies but don’t remember seeing tryptophan.  But then I was there for antibiotics myself. (worked great too!!) Thanks, dn snipped for brevity LT is available in 100 g. or larger quantities from veterinary suppliers, at a cost substantially less than prescription LT, though still more than the OTC product once cost. Veterinary LT is molecularly identical to the tryptophan we are interested in here, and purity

There is a mail-order souce in Tucson, I don’t know their name. Check in alt.support.depression, or sci.med.pharmacy. –Will

Response:

snipped for brevity LT is available in 100 g. or larger quantities from veterinary suppliers, at a cost substantially less than prescription LT, though still more than the OTC product once cost. Veterinary LT is molecularly identical to the tryptophan we are interested in here, and purity There is a mail-order souce in Tucson, I don’t know their name. Check in alt.support.depression, or sci.med.pharmacy. –Will

Please also come have a look at our site for this product. Be Well. QHI — Medicines For The Modern Mainstream http://www.qhi.co.uk

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                         The FDA Ban of                     L-Tryptophan:  Politics,                       Profits and Prozac1*                   By Dean Wolfe Manders, Ph.D.                  Copyright, All Rights Reserved      In the fall of 1989, the FDA recalled L-Tryptophan, an amino acid nutritional supplement, stating that it caused a rare and deadly flu-like condition (Eosinophilia-Myalgia Syndrome — EMS). On March 22, 1990, the FDA banned the public sale dietary of L- Tryptophan completely. This ban continues today.      On March 26, 1990, Newsweek featured a lead article praising the virtues of the anti-depressant drug Prozac. Its multi-color cover displayed a floating, gigantic green and white capsule of Prozac with the caption: "Prozac: A Breakthrough Drug for Depression."      The fact that the FDA ban of L-Tryptophan and the Newsweek Prozac cover story occurred within four days of each other went unnoticed by both the media and the public. Yet, to those who understand the effective properties of L-Tryptophan and Prozac, the concurrence seems "unbelievably coincidental." The link here is the brain neurotransmitter serotonin — a biochemical nerve signal conductor. The action of Prozac and L-Tryptophan are both involved with serotonin, but in totally different ways.      Elevated levels of serotonin in the body often result in the relief of depression, as well as substantial reduction in pain sensitivity, anxiety and stress. Prozac, as well as other new anti- depressant drugs such as Paxil and Zoloft, attempt to enhance levels of serotonin by working on whatever amounts of it already exist in the body (these drugs are known as selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors). None of these drugs, however, produce serotonin. In contrast, ingested L-Tryptophan acts to produce serotonin, even in individuals who generate little serotonin of their own. The most effective way to elevate levels of serotonin would be to use a serotonin producer rather than a serotonin enhancer.      The continuing FDA public ban of L-Tryptophan prevents popular access to this most effective serotonin producer. The millions of Americans who for decades safely had relied upon L-Tryptophan to relieve depression, anxiety and PMS, as well as to control pain and induce natural sleep, have been forced elsewhere for solutions. Routinely, such solutions are pharmaceutical in nature: people are forced to use either often highly addictive, expensive, and some- times dangerous drugs like Xanax, Valium, Halcion, Dalmane, Co- deine, Anafranil, Prozac, and others, or, simply suffer.      Present FDA public policy maintains that L-Tryptophan is an untested, unapproved and hazardous drug. The analytical work done a few years ago by the Centers for Disease Control and the Mayo Clinic, research which traced the fall 1989 outbreak of the serious flu-like condition to contaminants found in batches of L-Tryptophan made by the Japanese company Showa Denko, has not convinced the FDA to allow L-Tryptophan back on the market. This decision is based primarily on the research of FDA and NIMH scientists who state that L-Tryptophan itself, irrespective of contaminants, is a dangerous substance. Other university-based research scientists disagree with these findings.      The public availability of L-Tryptophan is too important an issue only to be argued and shrouded within a scientific debate that remains, ultimately, mystifying to the vast majority of Americans. There are many obvious facts worthy of public attention, and public concern. For example, consider the following:      ~ On February 9, 1993, a United States government patent (#5185157) was issued to use L-Tryptophan to treat, and cure EMS, the very same deadly flu-like condition which prompted the FDA to take L-Tryptophan off the market in 1989.      ~ Notwithstanding its public ban and import alert on L- Tryptophan, the FDA today allows Ajinomoto U.S.A. the right to import from Japan human-use L-Tryptophan.  Distributed from the Ajinomoto plant in Raleigh, North Carolina, the L-Tryptophan is then sold to, and through, a network of compounding pharmacies across the United States. Purchased by individuals only under a physician’s order, L-Tryptophan emerges here as a new prescription drug in the serotonin marketplace; one hundred 500 mg capsules cost about $75.00, approximately five times more than if they were sold as a dietary supplement.      Since the FDA holds the political mandate and power of a public regulatory agency established, ostensibly, to protect people from raw corporate interests in drug production and distribution, the actions of the FDA in concert with Ajinomoto U.S.A. are illumi- nating. By publicly banning L-Tryptophan from its dietary supple- ment status and price, while allowing L-Tryptophan to be sold as a high-priced prescription drug, the naked duplicity of FDA L- Tryptophan policy is revealed.      ~ During and after the 1989 EMS outbreak, the FDA did not totally ban the use of L-Tryptophan in humans — then, as today, the FDA has granted the pharmaceutical industry the protected right to use L-Tryptophan in hospital settings.  Manufactured by Abbott Laboratories, the amino acid injectable solutions Aminosyn and Aminosyn II contain as much as 200 mg of L-Tryptophan.  (Moreover, L-Tryptophan has never been removed from baby food produced and sold within the United States.)      ~ While the FDA has banned the public sale and use of safe, non-contaminated, dietary supplement L-Tryptophan for people, the United States Department of Agriculture still sanctions the legal sale and use of non-contaminated L-Tryptophan for animals.  Today, as in the past, feed grade L-Tryptophan continues to be used as a nutritional and bulk feed additive by the commercial hog and chicken farming industry.  Additionally, L-Tryptophan is now available for use by veterinarians in caring for horses and pets.   ~ Outside of the United States, in countries such as Canada, the Netherlands, Germany, England, and others, L-Tryptophan is widely used. Nowhere, have any serious or widespread health problems occurred.      At bottom, the FDA public ban of safe, non-contaminated L- Tryptophan is uneven, expensive, and biased in favor of the phar- maceutical industry. The FDA proscription effectively awards billions of dollars in profits to pharmaceutical companies and their suppliers in the same proportion as it adds billions of unnecessary dollars to the nation’s already bloated health care expenditures.      On June 15, 1993, the FDA Dietary Supplement Task Force published a report on the work it had been doing in the area of developing FDA policy around nutritional supplements. On page two, the report admits, "The Task Force considered various issues in its deliberations, including… what steps are necessary to ensure that the existence of dietary supplements on the market does not act as a disincentive for drug development."      In this case, the FDA has succeeded in carrying out its stated policy goal. With competition from publicly available L-Tryptophan removed, the rapidly expanding market in prescription serotonin drugs — now among them L-Tryptophan itself — contains no major "disincentives" for the massive accumulation of pharmaceutical industry profits.      It is now time for appropriate congressional committees to review openly and aggressively the entire matter of L-Tryptophan. This will provide a needed forum where political, corporate, and scientific issues of FDA L-Tryptophan regulatory policy may be addressed. There exists ample precedent for such hearings: in the 1980’s and early 1990’s, for example, such investigations uncovered FDA favoritism in the approval of generic drugs and the bribery of FDA officials.      The story of L-Tryptophan illustrates a sad and perverse picture of the politics and priorities of public health in America: A safe, dietary-supplement serotonin producer is publicly unavailable to people, while daily fed to animals by corporate agribusiness.  A drug patent is approved to use L-Tryptophan to cure the very condition the FDA claims it caused.  And, while publicly exclaiming that L-Tryptophan is a dangerous and untested drug, the FDA, more quietly, allows human-use L-Tryptophan to be imported, and then marketed and sold by the pharmaceutical industry.       To allow the FDA ban of L-Tryptophan to continue unreviewed and uninvestigated condemns millions of Americans to unnecessary financial expenditures and needless suffering.      1.  This article appeared in Social Policy, Vol. 26, No. 2, Winter 1995.  Dean Wolfe Manders is a senior lecturer in humanities and sciences at the California College of Arts and Crafts, Oakland/San Francisco.  He has lectured and done extensive research on the medical politics of L-Tryptophan.      *Blazing Tattles, June 96.  Responses to the above article may be quoted in future issues unless writer explicitly requests otherwise.  For information about Blazing Tattles send inquiry to: Tattles at P.O. Box 1073, Half Moon Bay, CA 94019.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yet, to those who understand the effective properties of L-Tryptophan and Prozac, the concurrence seems "unbelievably coincidental." The link here is the brain neurotransmitter serotonin — a biochemical nerve signal conductor. The action of Prozac and L-Tryptophan are both involved with serotonin, but in totally different ways.      Elevated levels of serotonin in the body often result in the relief of depression, as well as substantial reduction in pain sensitivity, anxiety and stress. Prozac, as well as other new anti- depressant drugs such as Paxil and Zoloft, attempt to enhance levels of serotonin by working on whatever amounts of it already exist in the body (these drugs are known as selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors). None of these drugs, however, produce serotonin. In contrast, ingested L-Tryptophan acts to produce serotonin, even in individuals who generate little serotonin of their own. The most effective way to elevate levels of serotonin would be to use a serotonin producer rather than a serotonin enhancer.

Agreed that SSRIs and LTryptophan both work on serotonin. I have used both with good results. The distinction needs to be made that some depressions are more neurologic, others more hormonal or enzymatic. In cases of the former, SSRIs generally work much better, and in the latter, LT works better. I also agree that the continuing FDA ban looks suspicious, and it ought to be lifted immediately. LT is available in 100 g. or larger quantities from veterinary suppliers, at a cost substantially less than prescription LT, though still more than the OTC product once cost. Veterinary LT is molecularly identical to the tryptophan we are interested in here, and purity and quality control are probably higher than most old OTC products. One caveat: if you are taking a SSRI (Prozac, Paxil, Zoloft, Effexor) antidepressent, concurrent LT use is strongly contradicated, as taking both together can produce the potentially lethal ’serotonin syndrome,’ due to toxic levels of 5-HT in the body. –Will

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