Question:

I remember day 5 thru 10 to be the worst. day 15 (sweating profusely, brain shocks,couldn’t eat, or drink coffee, drank huge amounts of water) , it was had  already tapered down. Day 30 I had brain shocks maybe once every 2-3 days, but other than that I was pretty normal Week 8 I was completely back to normal. BTW, if you sample a fair amount of posts, you’ll find that they are all in their first 2 weeks of withdrawal. After that not many people post anymore. That is an encouraging sign.

Response:

Uther, I hate to be harsh, but ultimately, it just doesn’t matter.

amen.  sux, tha truth. Take your new medicine and continue the taper.  It will end when it ends.  Sorry, but that’s it.

i hate bottom lines !  and unfortunately , Gary’s right.. you can’t rush a detox from that crap.

Response:

I’ll keep telling my brain shocks they don’t matter and maybe they’ll get bored and go bother someone else

thanks a HEAP !  i gottem now.. oh holy.. i just read the rest of yer post, Uther.. i don’t think there’s any addictive pharmacological properties in Effexor, unless it’s that red dye. probly more mental. want some REAL withdrawals?  eat xanax for a few and cold turkey THAT… you will commune with your life, as flashed before your eyes…. 24/7, i promise you.   ~tanya

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ll keep telling my brain shocks they don’t matter and maybe they’ll get bored and go bother someone else thanks a HEAP !  i gottem now.. oh holy.. i just read the rest of yer post, Uther.. i don’t think there’s any addictive pharmacological properties in Effexor, unless it’s that red dye. probly more mental. want some REAL withdrawals?  eat xanax for a few and cold turkey THAT… you will commune with your life, as flashed before your eyes…. 24/7, i promise you.   ~tanya

Unfortunately Effexor is associated with withdrawal problems that can be just as bad as Xanax withdrawal. A way to get around it is switch to Prozac and then taper off of Prozac which is much easier to stop. Philip

Response:

The worst withdrawal I ever had was from quitting good old fashioned coffee cold turkey. I was in my 20’s and lived in a very rural area, was doing a pot of coffee a day. Big snowstorm showed up, out of coffee, no way to get to town to get my fix. Horrible headaches for 3 days, stomach cramps etc. I gave up coffee for awhile after that, went back to it, later decided to cut down, tapered slowly, no withdrawal. Now I do 1 mug of black coffee each morning, forgot it one morning and didn’t notice. I tapered xanax last summer, cut down by .25 mg every 3 days, no withdrawal, stopped it for nearly a month, then some serious shit happened in my life, a family member phoned screaming at me at 2 am  and I ran for the xanax bottle. Xanax not only keeps me sane, it keeps some people who have to be around me sane too. I don’t recommend quitting cold turkey for any substance. Withdrawals are hell. —-’Course – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – want some REAL withdrawals? eat xanax for a few and cold turkey THAT… you will commune with your life, as flashed before your eyes…. 24/7, i promise you. ~tanya —

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ll keep telling my brain shocks they don’t matter and maybe they’ll get bored and go bother someone else thanks a HEAP !  i gottem now.. oh holy.. i just read the rest of yer post, Uther.. i don’t think there’s any addictive pharmacological properties in Effexor, unless it’s that red dye. probly more mental. want some REAL withdrawals?  eat xanax for a few and cold turkey THAT… you will commune with your life, as flashed before your eyes…. 24/7, i promise you.   ~tanya Unfortunately Effexor is associated with withdrawal problems that can be just as bad as Xanax withdrawal. A way to get around it is switch to Prozac and then taper off of Prozac which is much easier to stop. Philip

I found withdrawing from Effexor extraordinarily difficult but necessary. Fortunately I had Xanax to help and the knowledge that I was starting a new AD. Despite the problems withdrawing, Effexor worked well for me for 5 years. Meryl

Response:

I found withdrawing from Effexor extraordinarily difficult but necessary. Fortunately I had Xanax to help and the knowledge that I was starting a new AD. Despite the problems withdrawing, Effexor worked well for me for 5 years. Meryl

Hi Meryl, how come you had to quit after 5 years?  I found it tough enough after 4 weeks Uthur

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I found withdrawing from Effexor extraordinarily difficult but necessary. Fortunately I had Xanax to help and the knowledge that I was starting a new AD. Despite the problems withdrawing, Effexor worked well for me for 5 years. Meryl Hi Meryl, how come you had to quit after 5 years?  I found it tough enough after 4 weeks Uthur

I developed adverse side effects. The worrying one was high blood pressure so I had to switch ADs. It was also pooping out as an antidepressant. I had climbed to 300 mg over the years but my depression was not controlled by the end. Meryl

Response:

Uther, I hate to be harsh, but ultimately, it just doesn’t matter.  Take your new medicine and continue the taper.  It will end when it ends.  Sorry, but that’s it. Gary

Thanks Gary, your philosophical approach is refreshing.  I’ll keep telling my brain shocks they don’t matter and maybe they’ll get bored and go bother someone else Uthur – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Howdy friends, I’m currently going through the less than enjoyable process of coming off this strange old drug.  Here’s my situation: I was on 75mg Effexor XL a day for 4 weeks in total. I went from that to 37.5mg for 14 days. Then I went to 37.5mg every second day for about 10 days. 3 days ago I took my last dose. I felt pretty bad last night and again today.  My questions are these – when do you think the withdrawal will peak, and how long before it is completely gone?  I came off Celexa a year ago a bit too abruptly and had withdrawal for 10 weeks – I hope I won’t go through that again! All opinions are welcome.  Thanks. Uthur

Response:

Uther, I hate to be harsh, but ultimately, it just doesn’t matter.  Take your new medicine and continue the taper.  It will end when it ends.  Sorry, but that’s it. Gary

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Howdy friends, I’m currently going through the less than enjoyable process of coming off this strange old drug.  Here’s my situation: I was on 75mg Effexor XL a day for 4 weeks in total. I went from that to 37.5mg for 14 days. Then I went to 37.5mg every second day for about 10 days. 3 days ago I took my last dose. I felt pretty bad last night and again today.  My questions are these – when do you think the withdrawal will peak, and how long before it is completely gone?  I came off Celexa a year ago a bit too abruptly and had withdrawal for 10 weeks – I hope I won’t go through that again! All opinions are welcome.  Thanks. Uthur

Response:

Howdy friends, I’m currently going through the less than enjoyable process of coming off this strange old drug.  Here’s my situation: I was on 75mg Effexor XL a day for 4 weeks in total. I went from that to 37.5mg for 14 days. Then I went to 37.5mg every second day for about 10 days. 3 days ago I took my last dose. I felt pretty bad last night and again today.  My questions are these – when do you think the withdrawal will peak, and how long before it is completely gone?  I came off Celexa a year ago a bit too abruptly and had withdrawal for 10 weeks – I hope I won’t go through that again! All opinions are welcome.  Thanks. Uthur

Response:

Question:

Hello. I am a Canadian female, mid-40s, married, an at-home mother. I have diabetes type 2 since Dec. 1999, have suffered from depression for perhaps seven years now, and have been tentatively diagnosed with Bipolar 2 this past March by a psychiatrist. The doctor recommended I add Wellbrutin S.R. (150 mg x a day) to the Effexor XR (150 mg x a day) . I didn’t think that either meds were working, until earlier last week when my libido kicked in. (I was ‘neutral’, so to speak, for many months.) It was quite a pleasant experience for my husband and I. But then, within a few days, it’s as if my increased libido "overtook" me and I began to flirt (playfully, I would say, but with sexual overtones) with various men, men I didn’t even know, in a chat group.  Without revealing too many details, one of these flirty episodes turned out badly yesterday evening. I took this *very* badly, and it triggered an episode of self-injury, something I hadn’t done in over twenty years. Along with the seemingly never-ending tears, I began to scratch – using my own fingernails – my upper and lower back, my upper chest, my breasts, my waist and parts of my legs. This crying/scratching last over one hour, until my husband’s 2nd attempt to calm me down worked. I share all of this with you not to be condemned, but to ask if the oral meds I am taking could be responsible for (1) my increased libido (where previously there was almost none), (2) this urge to flirt with strangers, and (3) thoughts and actions of self-injury. Thank you for listening. — Yvonne

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello. I am a Canadian female, mid-40s, married, an at-home mother. I have diabetes type 2 since Dec. 1999, have suffered from depression for perhaps seven years now, and have been tentatively diagnosed with Bipolar 2 this past March by a psychiatrist. The doctor recommended I add Wellbrutin S.R. (150 mg x a day) to the Effexor XR (150 mg x a day) . I didn’t think that either meds were working, until earlier last week when my libido kicked in. (I was ‘neutral’, so to speak, for many months.) It was quite a pleasant experience for my husband and I. But then, within a few days, it’s as if my increased libido "overtook" me and I began to flirt (playfully, I would say, but with sexual overtones) with various men, men I didn’t even know, in a chat group. Without revealing too many details, one of these flirty episodes turned out badly yesterday evening. I took this *very* badly, and it triggered an episode of self-injury, something I hadn’t done in over twenty years. Along with the seemingly never-ending tears, I began to scratch – using my own fingernails – my upper and lower back, my upper chest, my breasts, my waist and parts of my legs. This crying/scratching last over one hour, until my husband’s 2nd attempt to calm me down worked. I share all of this with you not to be condemned, but to ask if the oral meds I am taking could be responsible for (1) my increased libido (where previously there was almost none), (2) this urge to flirt with strangers, and (3) thoughts and actions of self-injury. Thank you for listening. To me, and I am in no way a doctor, it would seem that it is possible that the anti-depressants that you are taking are throwing you into a manic episode (it’s a common occurrence). If your pdoc thinks that you are bipolar then he should add a mood stabilizer into the mix. I suggest that you call him immediately and let him know what’s going on. Good luck Thank you for responding, Hilaire, and for your advice. I hadn’t thought of the possibility of a manic episode. I saw my case-worker today and she said the same thing you did, plus she told me to stop taking the Wellbutrin. She’s also scheduled me for an "emergency" appointment to see the psychiatrist tomorrow (instead of waiting for the one I had for June 4th) to see what type of med would be better suited for my condition. I’m feeling somewhat better this evening, but the need to rock back and forth and to keep my body in some kind of motion is still with me. As well, I am extremely tired as if I haven’t slept in days. But, at least I know it’s only a few more hours before I see the psychiatrist. Again, thank you for replying. No problem It sounds like you’ve got a good case worker. I also thought you should stop taking the Wellbutrin, but would never give out that advice on-line. Let us know how it goes. BTW – Wellbutrin made me wildly manic within a couple of hours of taking it for the first time. Hilaire WOW! For years I thought I was weird, have had many similar circumstances and at that time I was undiagnosed and manic. Whew, it was good to hear another woman stating that the same stuff happened with her. Definitely do something about the meds, you can’t go through life wrapped in gauze and afraid to talk to men for fear of the repercussions. Sounds like you have a very supportive husband girl, it takes a lot for our men to stay through the worst, but the best will come. My best to you and yours, Tanja

when taking wellbutrin,i was irritable(imagine that)so that my case manager thretened to resign.& i was flirtatious(to say how successful might be embarassing).what you’re experiencing might be related to medications,or you could be getting a bit hypo- or manic.I’m bd 1 but the effects are similiar,some enjoyable.Harry("not well")

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello. I am a Canadian female, mid-40s, married, an at-home mother. I have diabetes type 2 since Dec. 1999, have suffered from depression for perhaps seven years now, and have been tentatively diagnosed with Bipolar 2 this past March by a psychiatrist. The doctor recommended I add Wellbrutin S.R. (150 mg x a day) to the Effexor XR (150 mg x a day) . I didn’t think that either meds were working, until earlier last week when my libido kicked in. (I was ‘neutral’, so to speak, for many months.) It was quite a pleasant experience for my husband and I. But then, within a few days, it’s as if my increased libido "overtook" me and I began to flirt (playfully, I would say, but with sexual overtones) with various men, men I didn’t even know, in a chat group. Without revealing too many details, one of these flirty episodes turned out badly yesterday evening. I took this *very* badly, and it triggered an episode of self-injury, something I hadn’t done in over twenty years. Along with the seemingly never-ending tears, I began to scratch – using my own fingernails – my upper and lower back, my upper chest, my breasts, my waist and parts of my legs. This crying/scratching last over one hour, until my husband’s 2nd attempt to calm me down worked. I share all of this with you not to be condemned, but to ask if the oral meds I am taking could be responsible for (1) my increased libido (where previously there was almost none), (2) this urge to flirt with strangers, and (3) thoughts and actions of self-injury. Thank you for listening. To me, and I am in no way a doctor, it would seem that it is possible that the anti-depressants that you are taking are throwing you into a manic episode (it’s a common occurrence). If your pdoc thinks that you are bipolar then he should add a mood stabilizer into the mix. I suggest that you call him immediately and let him know what’s going on. Good luck Thank you for responding, Hilaire, and for your advice. I hadn’t thought of the possibility of a manic episode. I saw my case-worker today and she said the same thing you did, plus she told me to stop taking the Wellbutrin. She’s also scheduled me for an "emergency" appointment to see the psychiatrist tomorrow (instead of waiting for the one I had for June 4th) to see what type of med would be better suited for my condition. I’m feeling somewhat better this evening, but the need to rock back and forth and to keep my body in some kind of motion is still with me. As well, I am extremely tired as if I haven’t slept in days. But, at least I know it’s only a few more hours before I see the psychiatrist. Again, thank you for replying.

No problem It sounds like you’ve got a good case worker. I also thought you should stop taking the Wellbutrin, but would never give out that advice on-line. Let us know how it goes. BTW – Wellbutrin made me wildly manic within a couple of hours of taking it for the first time. Hilaire

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello. I am a Canadian female, mid-40s, married, an at-home mother. I have diabetes type 2 since Dec. 1999, have suffered from depression for perhaps seven years now, and have been tentatively diagnosed with Bipolar 2 this past March by a psychiatrist. The doctor recommended I add Wellbrutin S.R. (150 mg x a day) to the Effexor XR (150 mg x a day) . I didn’t think that either meds were working, until earlier last week when my libido kicked in. (I was ‘neutral’, so to speak, for many months.) It was quite a pleasant experience for my husband and I. But then, within a few days, it’s as if my increased libido "overtook" me and I began to flirt (playfully, I would say, but with sexual overtones) with various men, men I didn’t even know, in a chat group. Without revealing too many details, one of these flirty episodes turned out badly yesterday evening. I took this *very* badly, and it triggered an episode of self-injury, something I hadn’t done in over twenty years. Along with the seemingly never-ending tears, I began to scratch – using my own fingernails – my upper and lower back, my upper chest, my breasts, my waist and parts of my legs. This crying/scratching last over one hour, until my husband’s 2nd attempt to calm me down worked. I share all of this with you not to be condemned, but to ask if the oral meds I am taking could be responsible for (1) my increased libido (where previously there was almost none), (2) this urge to flirt with strangers, and (3) thoughts and actions of self-injury. Thank you for listening. To me, and I am in no way a doctor, it would seem that it is possible that the anti-depressants that you are taking are throwing you into a manic episode (it’s a common occurrence). If your pdoc thinks that you are bipolar then he should add a mood stabilizer into the mix. I suggest that you call him immediately and let him know what’s going on. Good luck Thank you for responding, Hilaire, and for your advice. I hadn’t thought of the possibility of a manic episode. I saw my case-worker today and she said the same thing you did, plus she told me to stop taking the Wellbutrin. She’s also scheduled me for an "emergency" appointment to see the psychiatrist tomorrow (instead of waiting for the one I had for June 4th) to see what type of med would be better suited for my condition. I’m feeling somewhat better this evening, but the need to rock back and forth and to keep my body in some kind of motion is still with me. As well, I am extremely tired as if I haven’t slept in days. But, at least I know it’s only a few more hours before I see the psychiatrist. Again, thank you for replying. No problem It sounds like you’ve got a good case worker. I also thought you should stop taking the Wellbutrin, but would never give out that advice on-line. Let us know how it goes. BTW – Wellbutrin made me wildly manic within a couple of hours of taking it for the first time. Hilaire WOW! For years I thought I was weird, have had many similar circumstances

and at that time I was undiagnosed and manic. Whew, it was good to hear another woman stating that the same stuff happened with her. Definitely do something about the meds, you can’t go through life wrapped in gauze and afraid to talk to men for fear of the repercussions. Sounds like you have a very supportive husband girl, it takes a lot for our men to stay through the worst, but the best will come. My best to you and yours, Tanja

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello. I am a Canadian female, mid-40s, married, an at-home mother. I have diabetes type 2 since Dec. 1999, have suffered from depression for perhaps seven years now, and have been tentatively diagnosed with Bipolar 2 this past March by a psychiatrist. The doctor recommended I add Wellbrutin S.R. (150 mg x a day) to the Effexor XR (150 mg x a day) . I didn’t think that either meds were working, until earlier last week when my libido kicked in. (I was ‘neutral’, so to speak, for many months.) It was quite a pleasant experience for my husband and I. But then, within a few days, it’s as if my increased libido "overtook" me and I began to flirt (playfully, I would say, but with sexual overtones) with various men, men I didn’t even know, in a chat group. Without revealing too many details, one of these flirty episodes turned out badly yesterday evening. I took this *very* badly, and it triggered an episode of self-injury, something I hadn’t done in over twenty years. Along with the seemingly never-ending tears, I began to scratch – using my own fingernails – my upper and lower back, my upper chest, my breasts, my waist and parts of my legs. This crying/scratching last over one hour, until my husband’s 2nd attempt to calm me down worked. I share all of this with you not to be condemned, but to ask if the oral meds I am taking could be responsible for (1) my increased libido (where previously there was almost none), (2) this urge to flirt with strangers, and (3) thoughts and actions of self-injury. Thank you for listening. To me, and I am in no way a doctor, it would seem that it is possible that the anti-depressants that you are taking are throwing you into a manic episode (it’s a common occurrence). If your pdoc thinks that you are bipolar then he should add a mood stabilizer into the mix. I suggest that you call him immediately and let him know what’s going on. Good luck

Thank you for responding, Hilaire, and for your advice. I hadn’t thought of the possibility of a manic episode. I saw my case-worker today and she said the same thing you did, plus she told me to stop taking the Wellbutrin. She’s also scheduled me for an "emergency" appointment to see the psychiatrist tomorrow (instead of waiting for the one I had for June 4th) to see what type of med would be better suited for my condition. I’m feeling somewhat better this evening, but the need to rock back and forth and to keep my body in some kind of motion is still with me. As well, I am extremely tired as if I haven’t slept in days. But, at least I know it’s only a few more hours before I see the psychiatrist. Again, thank you for replying. — Yvonne

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Hello. I am a Canadian female, mid-40s, married, an at-home mother. I have diabetes type 2 since Dec. 1999, have suffered from depression for perhaps seven years now, and have been tentatively diagnosed with Bipolar 2 this past March by a psychiatrist. The doctor recommended I add Wellbrutin S.R. (150 mg x a day) to the Effexor XR (150 mg x a day) . I didn’t think that either meds were working, until earlier last week when my libido kicked in. (I was ‘neutral’, so to speak, for many months.) It was quite a pleasant experience for my husband and I. But then, within a few days, it’s as if my increased libido "overtook" me and I began to flirt (playfully, I would say, but with sexual overtones) with various men, men I didn’t even know, in a chat group. Without revealing too many details, one of these flirty episodes turned out badly yesterday evening. I took this *very* badly, and it triggered an episode of self-injury, something I hadn’t done in over twenty years. Along with the seemingly never-ending tears, I began to scratch – using my own fingernails – my upper and lower back, my upper chest, my breasts, my waist and parts of my legs. This crying/scratching last over one hour, until my husband’s 2nd attempt to calm me down worked. I share all of this with you not to be condemned, but to ask if the oral meds I am taking could be responsible for (1) my increased libido (where previously there was almost none), (2) this urge to flirt with strangers, and (3) thoughts and actions of self-injury. Thank you for listening.

To me, and I am in no way a doctor, it would seem that it is possible that the anti-depressants that you are taking are throwing you into a manic episode (it’s a common occurrence). If your pdoc thinks that you are bipolar then he should add a mood stabilizer into the mix. I suggest that you call him immediately and let him know what’s going on. Good luck Hilaire

Response:

Question:

Ok, so my doctor agreed to try another SSRI, but she wanted me to wean off Paxil first! Told her I could wean off one and wean onto another at the same time, but she was dubious about that so I asked her to look it up and ask around… now she agrees. She has prescribed Effexor.

Although Effexor technically is not an SSRI it is cross tolerant with SSRI’s so switching this way should be no problem. I’ve been told to take 20 mgs of paxil(instead of 40) and to add 37,5mgs of effexor for the next 3 days, then drop the paxil completely and raise the effexor to 75mgs. Does this sound about right? It seems like a fast changeover to me, but I’d rather deal with any side effects and get this change over with quickly myself anyway.

I agree that this may be a tad fast but I think it can be done if you are prepared to white-knuckle through some possible temporary side effects. My other question; is the target does of 75 mgs of effexor comparible to the 40 mgs of paxil I’ve been taking?

That is impossible to say as our reactions to meds are so personal. 75 mg of Effexor sound OK to me and if after a few weeks you feel it doesn’t work well enough you can always raise the dose a bit more. My xanax has been switched from 2x .5mg per day to 1x 1mg xanax XR per day. Hopefully it will stop me feeling like a yo-yo, I may need to ask for a dose increase I think.

I think so too considering the AD change. I take Xanax XR and IMO it is far preferable to *normal* Xanax. No rollercoatser effect anymore but a comparatively very smooth ride. Any thoughts/comments about this change in meds?

No ) Keep us posted! Philip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

Ok, so my doctor agreed to try another SSRI, but she wanted me to wean off Paxil first! Told her I could wean off one and wean onto another at the same time, but she was dubious about that so I asked her to look it up and ask around… now she agrees. She has prescribed Effexor. I’ve been told to take 20mgs of paxil(instead of 40) and to add 37,5mgs of effexor for the next 3 days, then drop the paxil completely and raise the effexor to 75mgs. Does this sound about right? It seems like a fast changeover to me, but I’d rather deal with any side effects and get this change over with quickly myself anyway. My other question; is the target does of 75 mgs of effexor comparible to the 40 mgs of paxil I’ve been taking? My xanax has been switched from 2x .5mg per day to 1x 1mg xanax XR per day. Hopefully it will stop me feeling like a yo-yo, I may need to ask for a dose increase I think. I’ll soon find out, considering the other med change! : ) Any thoughts/comments about this change in meds? I mean to start the changeover tommorow… Vashti

Response:

From what you say above, and below, Vashti, it doesn’t seem like she has a good grip on these medications, but at least is open minded. Both frustrating and refreshing at the same time!

well could be dangerous to be less savy about things one prescribes Yes, I think it’s far too fast and large a drop in Paxil,

I concur My biggest concern would be that sudden drop of Paxil from 40 to 20, with a "starter" dose of Effexor ( 37.5 mg ) to take the place of 20 mg of Paxil?  I don’t think so!!

nope best off dropping paxil by 5mg a day per week until off Remember, they may be very slight, if much at all. So much depends on how ‘you’ react, not how some others have.

true 150 mg of Effexor to 40 mg of Paxil??

or  more since paxil is up to 17 times more potent at the synapse then prozac effexor hits multiple sites at higher doses and is basicaly serotonergic at lower ones so a sliding conversion may not be too bad-as a phenethylamine compound it excerts reuptake inhibition on serotonin first noradrenaline second and weakly dopaminergic thirdly so in some ways in works like a tca but in reverse where the tca hits adrenergic sites first serotonin sites second. it would be somewhat difficult to make a comparative dose per dose response due to the different pharmacokinetics and individual responses From what I understand, the XR should work out very well.

yes it would bot Rita and Philip use this med with good success You’re not alone..

Microbes are everywhere

Response:

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – what are side withdrawl symptoms from coming off paxil? I am been off it 3 days now and my doc switched me to effexor and I just feel really spacy all day. And my body feels like shocks are going through it

its hard to tell which drug is doing what when you make a slide type conversion like this-but chances are its the washout of paxil-give it some time another week to adjust. LM

Response:

what are side withdrawl symptoms from coming off paxil? I am been off it 3 days now and my doc switched me to effexor and I just feel really spacy all day. And my body feels like shocks are going through it

These could very well be Paxil withdrawal symptoms (which are often described as such) in combination with initial Effexor side effects. It will be a temporary inconvenience hopefully as Effexor will have taken over soon. Philip

Response:

what are side withdrawl symptoms from coming off paxil? I am been off it 3 days now and my doc switched me to effexor and I just feel really spacy all day. And my body feels like shocks are going through it

Quite a few people who are weaning off paxil or quit paxil cold turkey complain of those *shock* like feelings in their body. They are not dangerous and it will pass with time. The spacy feeling could be caused by paxil withdrawals and/or weaning on effexor. Again this should pass with time. Take care. Jackie ~~I can’t understand why people are frightened of new ideas. I’m frightened of the old ones~~

Response:

I wonder if it’s the effexor. I am getting electric shocks through my body after I’ve been upped to 150 mg. This shocks start a panic attack. I’ve taken more ativan than I can count lately, and I try to stay away from it. Wanda

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – what are side withdrawl symptoms from coming off paxil? I am been off it 3 days now and my doc switched me to effexor and I just feel really spacy all day. And my body feels like shocks are going through it

Response:

My therapist put me on paxil and it scared me and I stopped taking it because it made me feel like I was loosing control of my muscles, especially in the jaw area.  I was not taking it long enough to really notice any side affects after stopping.  But what has been a big help to me is when I get my anxiety attacks I take hydroxizine.  It makes you pretty drowsy but it takes the edge of the really long anxiety attacks and doesnt make you feel as jittery.  Hang in there and you will find something that works for you.

Response:

what are side withdrawl symptoms from coming off paxil? I am been off it 3 days now and my doc switched me to effexor and I just feel really spacy all day. And my body feels like shocks are going through it

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Question:

I’ve been off of Zoloft for about 6-months….it helped a little bit….I guess?; I’m starting to feel that depression-thing( I never realized I had, until I’d been on Anti-Depressants! ( Zoloft) I had to stop, cause I just couldn’t stand the Anxiety…..while it seemed to give me a more up-beat Just looking for feed-back?  I haven’t started, as my mail-order has not come in yet!!!   "but I have good expections!!!!"  Everybody around here seems to think; if one drug doesn’t work…then try a different one. thanks for listening!!!      Wild & Crazy

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I’ve been off of Zoloft for about 6-months….it helped a little bit….I guess?; I’m starting to feel that depression-thing( I never realized I had, until I’d been on Anti-Depressants! ( Zoloft) I had to stop, cause I just couldn’t stand the Anxiety…..while it seemed to give me a more up-beat Just looking for feed-back?  I haven’t started, as my mail-order has not come in yet!!!   "but I have good expections!!!!"  Everybody around here seems to think; if one drug doesn’t work…then try a different one. thanks for listening!!!      Wild & Crazy

Hi Wild & Crazy, It is true, if one med doesn`t work, move on to another one. Paxil has been a good med for me and *hopefully* you will have good results too. It is important to start Paxil at a low dose, 5 mgs is a good starting dose. You would stay at this dose for one week. Do all your increases in 5mg increments and stay at each increase for one week. Weaning like this will hopefully keep any side-effects that you have to a minimum. Having a benzo such a Xanax or Klonopin would help you deal with any increased anxiety you might experience. Give Paxil 6 to 8 weeks to kick in. Good luck!!! Jackie Hope is a strange invention– A Patent of the Heart– In unremitting action Yet never wearing out.

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Wild and Crazy I guess what you have to decide is what is worse, the side-effects, or the illness

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To Wild&Crazy,I have been on Prozac,Adivan,Buspar,Celexa,Zoloft,Xanax,and now Paxil.As you can see I’ve been through some meds.But I’m replying to you to let you know that Paxil(I take 10 mg. a day)is what has stopped my panic attacks.Zoloft seemed to make me have more attacks.Paxil is for PD more so than it is for depression.I don’t notice any side effects either. I have been on it for about 4 months. Good Luck. I know what you are going through. For 10 years I’ve been a sufferer. * Sent from AltaVista http://www.altavista.com Where you can also find related Web Pages, Images, Audios, Videos, News, and Shopping.  Smart is Beautiful

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I need some input on Paxil. I’ve done the Zoloft thing…and it really made me nervous; and I gave it more than enough time, 6 or 7 months. What about Paxil? I’m considering trying Paxil…… Just looking for helpful input!                  Thanks,  Wild & Crazy

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I need some input on Paxil. I’ve done the Zoloft thing…and it really made me nervous; and I gave it more than enough time, 6 or 7 months. What about Paxil? I’m considering trying Paxil…… Just looking for helpful input!                  Thanks,  Wild & Crazy

There is nothing sensible to say about this as our reactions to meds are totally individual. As a rule though if a med from a certain group (in this case the SSRI’s) doesn’t work for you it’s often a good idea to try another med from the same group first. I would try Paxil if I were you but if it doesn’t work well after eight weeks or so I would advise trying another group of meds (TCA’s, benzos) Philip

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mr. zoloft worked on some of my obsessional thinking, then it killed my penis! no erection or orgasm for a month. i thought my doc poisoned me. got a new doc, put me on paxil. i have nothing but praise for mr. paxil at this point, but have only been on it for about a month. almost panic attack free. mr. zoloft is fucking poison for me. see another doctor if yours is giving you the nad killer. if mr. paxil doesn’t work for you, then try mr. effexor. if that doesn’t work then go back to steady, heavy drinking. lot’s of side effects in the morning, but no panic attacks and you don’t need a script. all kidding aside, paxil is the one! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I need some input on Paxil. I’ve done the Zoloft thing…and it really made me nervous; and I gave it more than enough time, 6 or 7 months. What about Paxil? I’m considering trying Paxil…… Just looking for helpful input!                  Thanks,  Wild & Crazy

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Question:

Does anyone have experience with combinations of any of the following meds:  Wellbutrin, Zoloft, Effexor, and Ritalin? Thanks, groucho

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Took them all, but I don’t think it was ever in combination with each other. Like most of the meds I have taken, they worked for a while then ZIPPO. It appears that the Paxil, Buspar, Neurontin Combo I am now on has gone ZIPPO on me. When you feel better without meds than you do on meds, "Somethin’ is screwie in St. Louie!!"          Ralph – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Does anyone have experience with combinations of any of the following meds:  Wellbutrin, Zoloft, Effexor, and Ritalin? Thanks, groucho

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What dose is the ritaalin for depression?

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Question:

Perhaps we could start with defining self-worth, and considering evolutionary roots leading to it, or how it is seen (or not seen) in lower animals. Below is a suggestion of the meaning of "self worth."  There are needs for certain aspects of belonginness.  Perhaps self-worth would include an assessment of the probability of their being met.  Perhaps this would also include an assessment of one’s "deservingness" of their being met, or in other words, an absence of shame or guilt. We might also consider that there may be brain based templates for such things as shame or guilt, such that if they are stimulated, or their conditions met, an unpleasant feeling is generated, which has the effect of modifying behavior. (more)

 :–  :                            Rational Negativism:  :               A Divergent Theory of Emotional Disorder  :  :Objective: To account for self-worth related emotion (i.e., needs for  :   love, acceptance, moral integrity, recognition, achievement,  :   purpose, meaning, etc.) and emotional disorder (e.g., depression,  :   suicide, etc.) within the context of an evolutionary scenario; i.e.,  :to  :   synthesize natural science and the humanities; i.e., to answer the  :   question:  ’Why is there a species of naturally selected organism  :   expending huge quantities of effort and energy on the  :survivalistically  :   bizarre non-physical objective of  maximizing self-worth?’  : If we view nature films of animals which live in groups, we find the existence of a heirarchy in many of them.  Often that heirarchy is constantly shifting, and is frequently re-ordered.  Sometimes, an individual is on the low end so often, he becomes a permanently low-status member.  He is fearful, and doesn’t even dare to challenge a higher-status member. Since the capacity for this behavior is species-wide, there must be templates for those behaviors involved.  Certainly, one can not impose them on reptiles, or solitary animals like certain cats.  Coincidentally, those seem to be the same animals which are prone to domestication. What are those templates?  How about feelings, such as shame, guilt, fear, a feeling of "less than," of being impressed with another who is "more than." In other words, feelings of a lack of self-worth.  And why do some individuals strive to change the pecking order?  Because those feelings are unpleasant, and they wish for them to be lost.  The way to lose those feelings is to increase one’s status, and with an absence of shame and fear, one has a greater feeling of self-worth. Viewing this in an evolutionary way, why would it happen?  For one thing, a group is more efficient in meeting its needs if it is organized.  For another, lower status enhances cooperation.  And it may be that the higher status individuals breed more often, passing along the genes of the stronger members of the group more frequently than those of the weaker ones. Thus, it is advantageous that the lower ones should strive for higher status, as a test of their potential for ancestry of a future group.  And it may be advantageous if the bolder ones lead the group in defending against intruders. Consequently, we have negative feelings and if not opposite feelings, then at least the absence of the negative ones. There is also an element of confidence.  With confidence, one feels that his behavior is likely to produce a desired result.  And he feels that he has the personal ability to carry out the behaviors.   Consequently, he is more likely to act when he is unable to know the outcome, than would a less confident individual.  Feelings of self-worth seem to be necessary for one to have confidence, and energy to carry out a plan. With the problem of bipolar disorder, this mechanism seems to go astray. The person attains such high confidence, he gambles on high risk propositions.  He has the energy to do a lot of work, and may be aggressive without purpose, as if he were at the top of a pack. Then he swings toward the opposite end, and lacks all confidence, lacks all energy, as if he were at the very bottom.  Is it possible that bipolar disorder means that existing templates for feelings and behavior are being triggered without environmental information which generally does that?  :Observation: The species in which rationality is most developed is  :   also the one in which individuals have the greatest difficulty in  :   maintaining an adequate sense of self-worth, often going to  :   extraordinary lengths in doing so (e.g., Evel Knievel, celibate  :monks,  self-endangering Greenpeacers, etc.).  : We have imposed culture upon our biological nature.  Where other creatures might be satisfied to find a place within a small pack, humans overlay their learning on this impulse, and seek through displays of wealth or education to gain the esteem of others, to bolster their self-esteem.  They may be holier than thou, humbler than thou, stronger or more beautiful, wherever they might find their niche.  Their learning may communicate to them that better means more powerful or more envied, or that better means more right.  :Hypothesis: Rationality is antagonistic to psychocentric stability  :(i.e.,  :   maintaining an adequate sense of self-worth).  :  :Synopsis: In much the manner reasoning allows for the subordination  :   of lower emotional concerns and values (pain, fear, anger, sex, etc.)  :   to more global concerns (concern for the self as a whole), so too,  :   these more global concerns and values can themselves become  :   reevaluated and subordinated to other more global, more objective  :   considerations. And if this is so, and assuming that emotional  :   disorder emanates from a deficiency in self-worth resulting from  :   precisely this sort of experiencially based reevaluation, then it can  :   reasonably be construed as a natural malfunction resulting from  :   one’s rational faculties functioning a tad too well.  : Negative information can cause negative feelings, but negative feelings can also cause all information to seem negative.  There is also a theory that depression has an evolutionary survival function. There was an observation of I think, some perigrene falcons, which mate for life.  The female did not return to the nest, and the male waited for her until he starved to death.  It was concluded that this was not helpful to the species, and therefore, depression was a fluke of nature. However, what would have happened if he had eventually concluded that she was not returning, and he was hungry and needed to find a meal?  Possibly the behavior of mating for life would have been weakened, which is connected to the survival of that species.  So if that happened a lot, and such birds passed along their genes and increased in number, the behavior may have diminished or disappeared, together with its survival function. So a very strong motivation to be loyal to the partner to the very end, possibly contributes to the survival of that species.  Consequently, depression is not without its function there (assuming the bird was depressed, of course.)  :Normalcy and Disorder: Assuming this is correct, then some  :   explanation for the relative "normalcy" of most individuals would  :   seem necessary. This is accomplished simply by postulating  :   different levels or degrees of consciousness.  From this perspective,  :   emotional disorder would then be construed as a valuative affliction  :   resulting from an increase in semantic content in the engram indexed  :   by the linguistic expression, "I am insignificant", which all persons  :of  :   common sense "know" to be true, but which the "emotionally  :   disturbed" have come to "realize", through abstract thought,  :   devaluing experience, etc.  :  :Implications: So-called "free will" and the incessant activity presumed  :   to emanate from it is simply the insatiable appetite we all have for  :   self-significating experience which, in turn, is simply nature’s way  :of  :   attempting to counter the objectifying influences of our rational  :   faculties. This also implies that the engine in the first  :"free-thinking"  :   artifact is probably going to be a diesel.  : Huh?  :  :   "Another simile would be an atomic pile of less than critical size:  :an  :   injected idea is to correspond to a neutron entering the pile from  :   without. Each such neutron will cause a certain disturbance which  :   eventually dies away. If, however, the size of the pile is  :sufficiently  :   increased, the disturbance caused by such an incoming neutron will  :   very likely go on and on increasing until the whole pile is  :destroyed.  :   Is there a corresponding phenomenon for minds?" (A. M. Turing).  :  :  :Additional Implications: Since the explanation I have proposed  :   amounts to the contention that the most rational species  :   (presumably) is beginning to exhibit signs of transcending the  :   formalism of nature’s fixed objective (accomplished in man via  :   intentional self-concern, i.e., the prudence program) it can  :reasonably  :   be construed as providing evidence and argumentation in support of  :   Lucas/Godel. Not only does this imply that the aforementioned  :   artifact probably won’t be a computer, but it would also explain why  :a  :   question such as "Can Human Irrationality Be Experimentally  :   Demonstrated?" (Cohen, 1981) has led to controversy, in that it  :   presupposes the possibility of a discrete (formalizable) answer to a  :   question which can only be addressed in comparative  :   (non-formalizable) terms (e.g. X is more rational than Y, the norm,  :etc.).  : There are some games, including the prisoner’s dilemma, which generally result in irrationality.  There is also a bird which has a behavior of tearing down its neighbor’s nest.  The bird has several choices.  1.) Spend all his time guarding what part of his nest is built, 2.) Look for new … read more »

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–                             Rational Negativism:                A Divergent Theory of Emotional Disorder Objective: To account for self-worth related emotion (i.e., needs for    love, acceptance, moral integrity, recognition, achievement,    purpose, meaning, etc.) and emotional disorder (e.g., depression,    suicide, etc.) within the context of an evolutionary scenario; i.e., to    synthesize natural science and the humanities; i.e., to answer the    question:  ’Why is there a species of naturally selected organism    expending huge quantities of effort and energy on the survivalistically    bizarre non-physical objective of  maximizing self-worth?’ Observation: The species in which rationality is most developed is    also the one in which individuals have the greatest difficulty in    maintaining an adequate sense of self-worth, often going to    extraordinary lengths in doing so (e.g., Evel Knievel, celibate monks,    self-endangering Greenpeacers, etc.). Hypothesis: Rationality is antagonistic to psychocentric stability (i.e.,    maintaining an adequate sense of self-worth). Synopsis: In much the manner reasoning allows for the subordination    of lower emotional concerns and values (pain, fear, anger, sex, etc.)    to more global concerns (concern for the self as a whole), so too,    these more global concerns and values can themselves become    reevaluated and subordinated to other more global, more objective    considerations. And if this is so, and assuming that emotional    disorder emanates from a deficiency in self-worth resulting from    precisely this sort of experiencially based reevaluation, then it can    reasonably be construed as a natural malfunction resulting from    one’s rational faculties functioning a tad too well. Normalcy and Disorder: Assuming this is correct, then some    explanation for the relative "normalcy" of most individuals would    seem necessary. This is accomplished simply by postulating    different levels or degrees of consciousness.  From this perspective,    emotional disorder would then be construed as a valuative affliction    resulting from an increase in semantic content in the engram indexed    by the linguistic expression, "I am insignificant", which all persons of    common sense "know" to be true, but which the "emotionally    disturbed" have come to "realize", through abstract thought,    devaluing experience, etc. Implications: So-called "free will" and the incessant activity presumed    to emanate from it is simply the insatiable appetite we all have for    self-significating experience which, in turn, is simply nature’s way of    attempting to counter the objectifying influences of our rational    faculties. This also implies that the engine in the first "free-thinking"    artifact is probably going to be a diesel.    "Another simile would be an atomic pile of less than critical size: an    injected idea is to correspond to a neutron entering the pile from    without. Each such neutron will cause a certain disturbance which    eventually dies away. If, however, the size of the pile is sufficiently    increased, the disturbance caused by such an incoming neutron will    very likely go on and on increasing until the whole pile is destroyed.    Is there a corresponding phenomenon for minds?" (A. M. Turing). Additional Implications: Since the explanation I have proposed    amounts to the contention that the most rational species    (presumably) is beginning to exhibit signs of transcending the    formalism of nature’s fixed objective (accomplished in man via    intentional self-concern, i.e., the prudence program) it can reasonably    be construed as providing evidence and argumentation in support of    Lucas/Godel. Not only does this imply that the aforementioned    artifact probably won’t be a computer, but it would also explain why a    question such as "Can Human Irrationality Be Experimentally    Demonstrated?" (Cohen, 1981) has led to controversy, in that it    presupposes the possibility of a discrete (formalizable) answer to a    question which can only be addressed in comparative    (non-formalizable) terms (e.g. X is more rational than Y, the norm, etc.).      Along these same lines, the theory can also be construed as an    endorsement or metajustification for comparative approaches in    epistemology (explanationism, plausiblism, etc.)    "The short answer [to Lucas/Godel and more recently, Penrose]     is that, although it is established that there are limitations to the    powers of any particular machine, it has only been stated, without    any sort of proof, that no such limitations apply to human intellect "    (A. M. Turing).    "So even if mathematicians are superb cognizers of mathematical    truth, and even if there is no algorithm, practical or otherwise,    for cognizing mathematical truth, it does not follow that the power    of mathematicians to cognize mathematical truth is not entirely    explicable in terms of their brain’s executing an algorithm.  Not    an algorhithm for intuiting mathematical truth —  we can suppose that    Penrose [via Godel] has proved that there could be no such thing.      What would the algorithm be for, then?  Most plausibly it would be an    algorithm — one of very many — for trying to stay alive … " (D. C.    Dennett). Oops!  Sorry!  Wrong again, old bean.      "My ruling passion is the love of literary fame" (David Hume).    "I have often felt as though I had inherited all the defiance and all the    passions with which our ancestors defended their Temple and could    gladly sacrifice my life for one great moment in history" (Sigmund    Freud).    "He, too [Ludwig Wittgenstein], suffered from depressions and for long    periods considered killing himself because he considered his life    worthless, but the stubbornness inherited from his father may have    helped him to survive" (Hans Sluga).    "The inquest [Alan Turing's] established that it was suicide.  The    evidence was perfunctory, not for any irregular reason, but because    it was so transparently clear a case" (Andrew Hodges) —                Phil Roberts, Jr. Feelings of Worthlessness and So-Called Cognitive Science         http://www.geocities.com/Athens/5476

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Question:

I started trying to get pregnant.  This is my first cycle without the Zoloft and I am due for AF any day now and I am soooooooo cranky and most of all sooooooooo sad all the time.  Does anyone have any suggestions on how to deal with this?  Today is so bad that I had to take my 2 yr old daughter over to my mom’s house because she doesn’t understand why I cry so much and it makes her so sad to see my crying.  I feel like a total failure because I can’t even take care of the daughter I do have when I am like this.         Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. KD Pearce remove the 4 before replying

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Hi- It sounds as though maybe you are having zoloft withdrawal.  Do you know a lot about this med?  Did your doctor explain to you that zoloft is a strong anti depressant?  Maybe you could benefit by taking something milder.  Good luck to you.

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as soon as I started trying (seriouly) to get pregnant 1.5 years ago my dr. took me off all meds. even the one for pms and it has been a huge ajustment and my poor husband and 4 year old are always the butt end of all my anger and sadness! My only suggestion is to ask your husband to help more. And ask your Re if you can take an over the counter drug for pms. they told me I could , but so far I have’nt. good luckMissy

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Question:

Hi. I have not posted here before, as I only recently became aware of this ng. It certainly loads faster than the Fairlite BB. I am just wondering if anyone else here is recovering from a substance abuse problem. I am, and the thing is, I feel inhibited sharing about my OCD at AA meetings because I might stigmatize myself as "crazy". At meetings, we are supposed to share our problems in order to recover, but my most pressing ones I feel I cannot share. I have been in an OCD support group, but it is on hold because of poor attendance. I have an individual counselor, and am on Zoloft, but this subject is a very troublesome one for me. Any answers?                         Chuck E. —

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On 5 May 1997, ChuckE wrote:

Hi. I have not posted here before, as I only recently became aware of this ng. It certainly loads faster than the Fairlite BB. I am just wondering if anyone else here is recovering from a substance abuse problem. I am, and the thing is, I feel inhibited sharing about my OCD at AA meetings because I might stigmatize myself as "crazy". At meetings, we are supposed to share our problems in order to recover, but my most pressing ones I feel I cannot share. I have been in an OCD support group, but it is on hold because of poor attendance. I have an individual counselor, and am on Zoloft, but this subject is a very troublesome one for me. Any answers?

    Hi, Chuck!  I’m Dennis, and I’m new here too.  I’m not a substance abuser, but I’ve been active in AlAnon, for people involved with substance abusers, so I’m familiar with 12-Step programs.  I don’t currently have active OCD, but I did when I was a teenager.  My recovery from that is a long story, that I will share here as I go.  I’m still interested in OCD because I still have a lot of the personality characteristics.  I’ve never been to an in-person OCD support meeting.     I’ve shared about OCD at some AlAnon meetings.  No one thought I was crazy, but no one identified very strongly either.  However, control and letting go of the need to control are central AlAnon topics and receive plenty of discussion at AlAnon meetings.  I use Alanon ideas to help. Meditation is a good exercise in letting go for me.     I discussed my OCD with one AA and he told me it sounded like some AA problems (the desire for magic, the desire for ultimate power, etc.)  He suggested I try going to some open AA meetings, and I plan to do that. However, OCD is obviously different from addiction in other ways.  There’s no substance involved, and usually no denial either.     I now suffer from chronic daily headaches.  My headache doc says it could be related to my former OCD, since migraine, depression, and OCD are all serotonin problems.  I’ve tried every SSRI that I know of (Luvox, Prozac, Zoloft, Effexor, Wellbutrin, Paxil) except Serzone.  I’ve also tried Anafranil and Desyrel.  Of all those, Prozac, Desyrel, and Paxil have helped the most.  Right now I’m using Paxil, along with verapamil and Sansert.  That’s helping a lot with the headaches.     Because of my tendency to obsessively focus on things, I was preoccupied with my headaches for the last several years.  However, I finally realized that focusing on pain was a sure way to stay miserable. AlAnon ideas helped me to realize that.  Now I use AlAnon, and I’ve found personal interests I like to focus on, too.     I hope that helps some. More later, Dennis — For more information about this service, send e-mail to: h…@anon.twwells.com   — for an automatically returned help message ad…@anon.twwells.com  – for the service’s administrator ano…@anon.twwells.com — anonymous mail to the administrator

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This is for ChuckE, who noted that the Fairlite OCD site takes a long time to load.  Actually, it loads pretty quickly if you turn off your graphics and get text-only.  There’s nothing much to see on that site, but there’s some invaluable information. KimJ

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Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I have been plagued by this question ever since the Glen and Greg fiasco. If I say something that upsets or offends someone… am I to suffer the same fate as Glen and Greg?  Will I be rejected and flammed and ostricized for my posts? I am *not* being sarcastic.  I am very serious, and scared.  This is really concerning me… and I hesitate to post anything ‘political’ now… for fear it might happen.  I hate walking on eggshells… it makes me feel even more fake. The last thing I need right now is to lose my ‘membership’ to this group.  You are all I have right now. Love, Keats xoxox who is sad, confused and scared of being abandoned.

Hi Keats,     Nobody can lose their "membership" unless they are outright abusive or violate one of the other newsgroup rules – which, although I haven’t read the FAQ lately, I assume to be along the lines of no harrassment and no commercial postings.     It’s always possible that one person or another will not like what you have to say.  It’s also possible that in their attempt to express their feelings, someone will make you feel unwanted.     The best thing to do is stay true to yourself, and at the same time stay open to learning from others, even if you disagree (or are disagreed with).     We are imperfect people and this is an imperfect medium of communication.  But there is just so much opportunity to learn and to grow, it would be a shame to let your fear talk you out of continuing to take risks.     Post on! Love, Betsy

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I have been plagued by this question ever since the Glen and Greg fiasco. If I say something that upsets or offends someone… am I to suffer the same fate as Glen and Greg?  Will I be rejected and flammed and ostricized for my posts? I am *not* being sarcastic.  I am very serious, and scared.  This is really concerning me… and I hesitate to post anything ‘political’ now… for fear it might happen.  I hate walking on eggshells… it makes me feel even more fake. The last thing I need right now is to lose my ‘membership’ to this group.  You are all I have right now. Love, Keats xoxox who is sad, confused and scared of being abandoned.

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Keats writes: If I say something that upsets or offends someone… am I to suffer the same fate as Glen and Greg?  Will I be rejected and flammed and ostricized for my posts? I am *not* being sarcastic.  I am very serious, and scared.

Dearest Keats, In response to your concern (which I *totally* understand) that with all the flaming of Glen & Greg that you could be next if someone objected to you…..  I just don’t see it happening.  I usually obsess over stuff like that, and I’m usually very afraid that I will be the next bashing victim of anger that may not eve be there.  But in this case, I don’t think this is likely. I’ve stayed out of this debate, but I think that both Dr.’s G. tended to word their messages (which were often, in my opinion, rather long and preachy) in ways that seemed very condescending.  I believe that they both mean very well and are genuinely concerned about us and the issue of e.d.s.  And I do think they had some good points to make, but there was a lot of (what I considered) superfluous and (imo) preachy stuff that you had to wade through in order to get to the good points.  I think, though, that their main mistakes (not, in my perception, *deliberate* offenses by any stretch of *my* imagination) were in not reading the group long enough before posting, and not thinking about their words before hitting send.  I think the majority is simply errors caused by not learning the ropes here, not figuring out what is said and not said, what the group is capable and not capable of, etc.  And I do believe that there was a bit too much (by *everyone* involved) taking criticisms and anger too personally.  Bottom line, for me:  too many people got hurt.  Hardest part to understand/deal with (imo):  no one *meant* to give offense.  Cause thought, yes.  Hurt others, no. These are the points where I believe a certain level of prejudice entered (from my p.o.v. as well).  1. They’re not coming from strong positions of authority.   2.  They’re men.  Keats, love, you are not handicapped in anyone’s perceptions by either of these two issues. The cause of #1 is a lack of direct experience–not necessarily a lack of concern or desire to learn.  On this group, those of us who are facing/have faced e.d.’s are coming from a position of authority; we know whereof we speak…intimately.  And even though we experiences the e.d.’s and develop the e.d.’s in different ways and for different reasons, we all accept that, at least for each person, those experiences are valid.  These two gentlemen don’t have the validation of *having* the experience, for which, for their sakes, I am grateful.  I believe they *can* have valid points to make on the issue regardless, and there are certainly individuals here who *do* make good points although they’ve not personally experienced an e.d.  I think that their sudden appearance and enthusiastic, frequent postings startled some people and left a bad taste in certain people’s mouths, which I understand, but which I don’t think necessarily invalidates their comments or presence. In terms of point #2, there is a level at which I know some of us (myself very much included) tend to listen less to what men have to say about this issue, especially when they are not directly facing the e.d. themselves. I know that I have serious doubts (this is my own prejudice, for which I apologize if it hurts any feelings; I don’t believe it’s *right*, I just know it’s how I instinctively think and react) about *any* man’s ability to understand how I feel, about *any* man’s ability to understand women’s issues.  This doesn’t mean that I don’t try to explain, or that I never believe they *have* understood, but I often think it’s just too much trouble to explain because I’m so afraid that they won’t understand. I’m sorry for the length and any apparent self-righteousness or offensiveness of this post; I’ve been meaning to say something and never found the time or words or courage. I guess all this boils down to that I have no real problem with Dr.s G remaining, but I hope they will each (as I suspect they have been doing) read a bit more and get more of a feel for what the system is here.  I hope we can all take things less personally, and believe me, I *know* that’s hard.  I take it personally if the *littlest* things happen.  :-) I hope I haven’t said anything too offensive or bad; I just wanted to share what my perception of this whole affair has been. Love, Amilyn

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Dear Keats, PLEASE keep posting.  I love reading what you have to say.  No, not everyone is always going to agree with you, but that’s part of life.  And, I, for one, would not get rid of that part of life for anything.  It is what makes it possible for us all to really connect when we do!  You are an incredibly valuable member of ased (as is everyone else).  Don’t let these fears take you away.  PLEASE. KT — For more information about this service, send e-mail to:

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: If I say something that upsets or offends someone… : am I to suffer the same fate as Glen and Greg?  Will I be rejected and : flammed and ostricized for my posts? : The last thing I need right now is to lose my ‘membership’ to this : group.  You are all I have right now. : who is sad, confused and scared of being abandoned. Keats…         To be completely practical, I see it this way: we know you.  I don’t see us kicking you out for something you say (not that this is like irc where any of us have the *power* to do so).         On a still somewhat practical note:  I dunno who Glen is.  Greg, as far as I remember, posted something about dieting or pills or something totally off base here.  It’s like a satanist posting to alt.christnet or something – you *have* to expect to get flamed doing something like that.  I don’t forsee you posting "New!! Exciting new diet pill on the horizon!! Just 19.95!"         On a not so practical note:  if anyone tries to ban you from here, I’ll have to kick some ***           I will NOT abandon you. *hug* Charlene — For more information about this service, send e-mail to:

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Heya Keats : If I say something that upsets or offends someone… : am I to suffer the same fate as Glen and Greg?  Will I be rejected and : flammed and ostricized for my posts? The honest answer is "It depends on how and what you write". As an extension to that, I don’t believe for one second that _anyone_ could possibly react negatively to anything which _you_ could write, Keats. As Amilyn pointed out in her post, you have an intimate understanding of EDs – of the issues which need to be skated around delicately, and of instances where tip-toeing is the best policy. Even if you were to say something which caused a negative reaction, I don’t think rejection or ostracizion (sp?!) would result. Much of the problem, I feel, with the Dr.s is that people possibly feel they’re, ummm, "outsiders?". Do you see what I mean? To some, maybe they haven’t yet proven themselves; by which I mean their empathy or ability to express their concerns in ways which _don’t_ cause negative reactions. (Greg: I *will* respond to your e-mail, btw, just as soon as I get the time. Bear with me. You, Keats, do have this empathy and the ability to express yourself delicately, clearly, and in cases where clarification _is_ needed, I think you’ve been quite responsive. Speaking from a purely personal point of view, I *hope* I’ve demonstrated some of this ability and empathy myself, as I don’t have an ED. If I haven’t, I wish someone would _please_ tell me..? The last thing anyone wants is to cause others upset. And in as much as that is true, none of us want to be rejected either. : Love, : Keats : xoxox : who is sad, confused and scared of being abandoned. Not a chance, sweetie. Not a _chance_. *HUG* Lots of love, Dave —  ! NOTE: THIS E-MAIL ADDRESS INVALID FROM 15 JUNE 1996 UNTIL FURTHER NOTICE !  ! It’s so easy to become unhappy. It’s harder to work on happiness, because!  ! to be unhappy you’ve just got to sit and wait for it. For happiness, you !  !   need to get up, get out, and grab it. (Message to S.S., 26 June 1995)  !

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I have been plagued by this question ever since the Glen and Greg fiasco. If I say something that upsets or offends someone… am I to suffer the same fate as Glen and Greg?  Will I be rejected and flammed and ostricized for my posts? I am *not* being sarcastic.  I am very serious, and scared.  This is really concerning me… and I hesitate to post anything ‘political’ now… for fear it might happen.  I hate walking on eggshells… it makes me feel even more fake. The last thing I need right now is to lose my ‘membership’ to this group.  You are all I have right now. Love, Keats xoxox who is sad, confused and scared of being abandoned.

Keats,  I know you are being *very* serious, because i worry about the self-same question all the time. I guess that as long as we don’t say anything really hurtful… then we will be okay… now posts are open to a lot of misinterpretation..the very nature of e-d’s make us more vvulnerable and someone. feeling very fragile may be hurt by something  any of us write… but if someone is offended/hurt  by anything YOU say… then i will be very, very surprised Keats… Keats,  you have so much compassion and understanding…i have severe doubts of you ever saying anything to hurt anyone else.. whether it is by accident or by design… please keep posting… i think the majority, if not all of us will fear at least once that something we write will hurt someone.. however unintentionally… and Keats,  no, we would NEVER abandon you  {{{{{ HUGS }}}}}} take good care of yourself.. don’t be afraid to post what is in your heart.. for your heart is full of kindness and love… love and extra special hugs because i think  you deserve them Susan

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have been plagued by this question ever since the Glen and Greg fiasco. If I say something that upsets or offends someone… am I to suffer the same fate as Glen and Greg?  Will I be rejected and flammed and ostricized for my posts? I am *not* being sarcastic.  I am very serious, and scared.  This is really concerning me… and I hesitate to post anything ‘political’ now… for fear it might happen.  I hate walking on eggshells… it makes me feel even more fake. The last thing I need right now is to lose my ‘membership’ to this group.  You are all I have right now. Love, Keats xoxox who is sad, confused and scared of being abandoned.

        We all have these feelings of insecurity sometimes, I think.  In this case it’s clearly irrational.  You’re one of us, one of the people this group exists for, not some outsider trying to use us to feed your bank book or your ego.  We all know and love you and we would never ostracise you — even if you suddenly start posting pyramid scams and ads for diet pills and asking for our credit card numbers we wouldn’t ostracise you; we’d ask what was going on and if somebody had hacked into your account.  <HUG -Cougar Allen :{) The Moving Finger writes; and having writ, Moves on: nor all thy Piety nor Wit Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line, Nor all thy Tears wash out a Word of it.

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writes: If I say something that upsets or offends someone… : am I to suffer the same fate as Glen and Greg?  Will I be rejected and : flammed and ostricized for my posts? : The last thing I need right now is to lose my ‘membership’ to this : group.  You are all I have right now. : who is sad, confused and scared of being abandoned.

Keats, No one can kick you out.  As long as you can turn on your machine, you can and have the right to read and write here.  As for me, I will never abandon you; I’ve been there too many times.  Also, the way I look at it, everyone has the right to their own opinons, that’s what makes them unique.  Some, I don’t look forward to reading, some I do. Now, woman, if you stop writing, I’ll be upset.  You’re a neat person with more insight than you give yourself credit for.  Okay. Hope you’ve got some sunshine up your way, Pj

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