Question:

Generic Cadd is a very good program IMHO.  The latest and supposedly the last version is 6.1.  It is just a tad nicer but either one is good.

Unfortunately what I think is good may not suit you but it does whatever I want very well. If you know where to get additional copies please let me know. ernie fisch

I agree this is a very good program.  I have Generic Cadd 5.0 and never felt the need to upgrade.  It’s a very powerful 2D drafting program not aimed at woodworking specifically.  It’s compatible with Autocad since Autodesk makes both.  The products are described on the web at: <http://www.autodesk.com/prod/prod.htm Mark P.

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Does anyone have any info on Generic Cadd ver6.0 by Autodesk,preferably whether it is good or bad?Any suggestions on a good cadd program?

Generic Cadd is a very good program IMHO.  The latest and supposedly the last version is 6.1.  It is just a tad nicer but either one is good.  Unfortunately what I think is good may not suit you but it does whatever I want very well.  If you know where to get additional copies please let me know. ernie fisch

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Does anyone have any info on Generic Cadd ver6.0 by Autodesk,preferably whether it is good or bad?Any suggestions on a good cadd program? Generic Cadd is a very good program IMHO. … Jeroen

        When Generic Cadd was bought and then abandoned by Autodesk, its authors bolted and have formed a new company which now makes a highly regarded follow up product "Visual CAD".  This new product will read your old Generic Cadd drawings.  The makers have a home page on the web at http://www.neca.com/~wahoo/viscadd.html. Steve Dettinger

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Does anyone have any info on Generic Cadd ver6.0 by Autodesk,preferably whether it is good or bad?Any suggestions on a good cadd program? David White

David, Just went through the CAD program choice loop and wound up with DrawingBoard by Ashlar.  It has many very interesting features. Check out the trial version and the demo available at: http://www.drawingboard.com I tried several and this one is the best all around and easiest to use. Good luck, — Charlie

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The programmers that wrote Generic CAD left Autodesk and are putting out a CAD called Visual CADD. It recognizes Generic CAD files. They can be located at: http://www.neca.com/~wahoo/viscadd.html Dan Hogan

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Does anyone have any info on Generic Cadd ver6.0 by Autodesk,preferably whether it is good or bad?Any suggestions on a good cadd program? David White

I really think it is a pretty good program.  Too bad Autodesk bought it.  It was a really good product with good support, newsletter and stuff.  I heard that the original developers have a new CAD program out but have forgotten the name of the current resurrection. David

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Does anyone have any info on Generic Cadd ver6.0 by Autodesk,preferably whether it is good or bad?Any suggestions on a good cadd program?

I have been using Generic CADD since version 4.0 and upgraded to v 6.0 as soon as I discovered it was available about 2 1/2 years ago. Compared to other CADD programs, whether DOS or Windows based,  I have found GC to be the most user friendly.  AutoCad is good, and damn well should be considering the $2500.00 price tag that accompanies it, however it’s definately overkill for strictly furniture or the like drawings. As mentioned in another response, GC 6.0 isn’t dynamic when it envolves hatching, meaning that if you were to strech or shrink a given area, whaterver hatch is in that area doesn’t shrink or grow with the change.  Other than this one glitch, I cannot think of another shortcoming. The command line structure is by far better than utilizing the menus. Although, you could successfully complete a drawing without using commands, it makes for a long day by not doing so.  After a couple of weeks at the helm of your computer and playing with GC 6.0, you will quickly learn 90% of the 2 letter commands.  The remaining 10% are not used very frequently and when needed they can be accessed by using the cheat card.  The CADD engine recognizes when a command has been entered and immediately executes that command. As far as accuracy is concerned, you are able to set the parameters to seven decimals.  When using fractions as the base measurement, you can set to 1/64th. Overall, I would rate the performace and user-ability of GC 6.0 a strong 9. Cheers, This Q&A has been sent to http://www.shivasys.com/hbk and http://www.cnl.com.au/~hbk for inclusion in what will soon be the world’s most comprehnsive FAQ on every known woodworking topic. — Joe Known on IRC as "Woodchips"

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Ignoer the address below. I don’t have the foggiest idea how that got entered. Dan Hogan

Dan Hogan

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Does anyone have any info on Generic Cadd ver6.0 by Autodesk,preferably whether it is good or bad?Any suggestions on a good cadd program? David White

David,      Generic CADD 6.0 is an excellent  _DOS_ cadd program.     Easy to learn and use.    BUT…  Autodesk is not continuing developement of the software.    Basically, it’s a dead product.      Generic CADD was originally written by Generic Software, which was purchased by Autodesk a number of years ago.   The writters then transfer to the employ of Autodesk, only to be let go just 2 years ago.    Now those same creative people have developed a new Cadd program that uses much of the same feel (and programmability) of Generic in a program called Visual CADD.    The new company is Numera Software and is growing quite nicely.    They have both a 16-bit windows version as well as their new 32-bit version available.      If you would like additional information, suggest you try :                     http://www.numera.com      You won’t be sorry.                                      Bob                             (a satisfied VC user)

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Does anyone have any info on Generic Cadd ver6.0 by Autodesk,preferably whether it is good or bad?Any suggestions on a good cadd program? David White

I have it and use it. It’s one of the best cad programs around, and the experts agree. Unfortunately they no longer make it because they put their emphasis on Auto cad lite. Very easy to learn and extremely versatile.

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Does anyone have any info on Generic Cadd ver6.0 by Autodesk,preferably whether it is good or bad?Any suggestions on a good cadd program? David White

Response:

Does anyone have any info on Generic Cadd ver6.0 by Autodesk,preferably whether it is good or bad?Any suggestions on a good cadd program? Generic Cadd is a very good program IMHO.  The latest and supposedly the last version is 6.1.  It is just a tad nicer but either one is good.  Unfortunately what I think is good may not suit you but it does whatever I want very well.  If you know where to get additional copies please let me know. ernie fisch

I use Generic Cadd 6.0 for furniture designs, for fantasizing about my house, and for drawing technical illustrations for articles that I write when occasionally doing my real job. For 2 dimensional stuff, I think it is fantastic. It can be driven either by menus with a mouse or by (occasionally weird) 2 letter combinations. I find myself using the 2 letter commands most of the time (very fast), and the mouse for the less often used commands. For a program in this price range it has surprisingly powerful features, including multiple windows, multiple undos (the code for this is OO, which I think is cute), and fairly powerful selection tools. A frustrating feature is that "hatches" aren’t dynamic (if you change the size of a wall, the bricks don’t automatically cover more space). Maybe 6.1 fixes this?         About 2 years ago, I tried most of the windows based stuff, including autocad light, turbo cad, and a few others whose names I can’t remember. After a few months, I was back to GCadd. The comparison between GCadd and most of the windows based versions is similar to that between WP5.1 and word for windows. WP5.1 was stable as a rock, could do almost anything if you knew how, and you could always get under the hood and tell it exactly what you want. It was also fast, both in terms of demands on the computer, and once you learned it, in terms of use. Word is easier to learn, and tries to make things easy for you. However, the trade off is that even when you are proficient, it can be very slow for anything fancy, and god help you if it thinks you want something a little different than you actually do. Autocad light seems to manage to combine the worst of both worlds, although I must admit to having given it a fairly limited test, and maybe after a few months, I would have loved it. My impression is that Autodesk is trying to convert its GCadd users to AutoCad light, and so the upgrade path is uncertain/non-existant. On the other hand, if I remember correctly, Autodesk announced this before 6.1 came out, so maybe they have reconsidered. Hope this helps. Jeroen

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Question:

I’d like to hear any first-hand accounts from anyone who has made such a switch.  I’ve been maintaining quite well on Serevent, but if there’s a consensus that Accolate is even better, then I’ll consider changing too! — peterh at p b t dot com … Seattle WA "Would you excuse me?  I cut my foot just now, and my shoe is filling up with blood."  -"Romy & Michelle’s High School Reunion"

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I’d like to hear any first-hand accounts from anyone who has made such a switch.  I’ve been maintaining quite well on Serevent, but if there’s a consensus that Accolate is even better, then I’ll consider changing too! —

Accolate is a pill you take twice a day on an empty stomach. That means 1 hr before eating or 2 hr after eating. Can be a hassle. If considering this approach suggest you consider the newly released Singulair, a pill you take once/day. Doesn’t have to be an empty stomach. See www.singulair.com Singulair works on the same principle as Accolate, and is as effective or more effective. During the transition period I think you might need to take both meds. Note–Serevent is not usually used alone, usually used with long acting asthma preventors like steroid inhalers. If Singulair is successful for you, you might be able to control your asthma with it and an occasional puff of Ventolin/Proventil. Ellis

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I switched from Accolate to Singulair without having to use both medications during the transition.   Singulair seems to be working very well, but I also use Serevent and Flovent in the morning and at night. Laura – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’d like to hear any first-hand accounts from anyone who has made such a switch.  I’ve been maintaining quite well on Serevent, but if there’s a consensus that Accolate is even better, then I’ll consider changing too! — Accolate is a pill you take twice a day on an empty stomach. That means 1 hr before eating or 2 hr after eating. Can be a hassle. If considering this approach suggest you consider the newly released Singulair, a pill you take once/day. Doesn’t have to be an empty stomach. See www.singulair.com Singulair works on the same principle as Accolate, and is as effective or more effective. During the transition period I think you might need to take both meds. Note–Serevent is not usually used alone, usually used with long acting asthma preventors like steroid inhalers. If Singulair is successful for you, you might be able to control your asthma with it and an occasional puff of Ventolin/Proventil. Ellis

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I recently switched from accolate to Singulair.  My doctor had me quit Accolate cold turkey, and begin on Singulair that night.  I expirenced no problems during the transition, and furthermore I am breathing even better now that I am on the Singulair.  It is also a big plus because I don’t have to adjust my eating schedule around my meds.

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I switched from Accolate to Singulair without having to use both medications during the transition.   Singulair seems to be working very well, but I also use Serevent and Flovent in the morning and at night. Laura

To clarify what I meant: During the transition from Serevent to Accolate, or a transition from Serevent to Singulair, you might need to take both meds (the long- acting bronchodilator Serevent and the antileukotriene Accolate or Singulair). Accolate and Singulair work on the same principle, and seem to be equally effective; the advantage being toward the newer drug Singulair since it is only taken once a day instead of twice, and stomach doesn’t have to be empty. However the exact use of the new antileukotriene drugs in asthma therapy has not yet been determined. (See Expert Panel Report 2) Ellis

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Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Enfilade, Effexor is a big time drug to be on for depression – it is usually used for major depression and even some psychotic disorders.  I understand that you want off of the medication because you feel good now – but remember, that is the medication helping you to feel better and control your depression. If you are wanting to try something that won’t turn you into a zombie, ask your doctor about weaning off of it, while being started on something else. If you are taken off of medication completely and you begin to relapse, you could spiral downward before a new drug takes effect (anti-depressants usually take 3-4 weeks before full effect is reached). The consequesnces of that far outweight the benefits of being "drug-free." Also, a relapse is usually worse once being taken off of a medication because of the major changes in the chemicals in your brain… Please be careful I know there is a stigma attached to being on medication for depression, but it is an illness…. Really think of the benefits of the medication vesus the possible results of being off of the medication. Talk to your doc first about switching to a different kind, one that still helps your symptoms, but with less side effects. Good luck

This is wonderful advice, judging from my experience with clinically’ depressed loved ones. Have your doctor help you find a drug that does not interefere with your quality of life–but remember that depression kills. It is a terrible, debilitating disease.

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I have to second this.  These days with managed care, a lot of antidepressants are prescribed by general physicians who frankly don’t have the right pharmocological background.

Yes. And they are prescribing them to people without clinical illness, in many cases. Sometimes I think half the people on antidepressants are not clinically depressed, they just want to "feel better." I think this is dangerous. I’ve been very lucky– in a sense– because my depressions have always been under a psychiatrist’s treatment.  I’m not saying this is true of everyone, but with my history, and my genetics, I have a very strong inclination towards depression.  I would no more try to "tough" out a depression without medication than I would refuse insulin if I were diabetic. I have had the experience of withdrawing off a very tough drug (nardil), and while I never hope to repeat such a thing, it was incredibly important that I do it.  I am now stable on a low dose of Wellbutrin, which seems to have little/no side effects for me.

Wellbutrin has been a wonder drug for a friend of mine. So few side effects for her.

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That red haze is starting to creep back a little, since the doc didn’t in any way suggest that this was a "for the rest of my life" kind of thing until just now.  I feel like I’ve gotten suckered into this situation, and that pisses me off. –Enfilade

I was on Effexor for about three years, and went off it for much the same reasons you mentioned. I’ve been off antidepresants for a couple years now, but it’s getting to be time to start again. Going to have to visit the doc to get a prescription for something other than Effexor. If you do it carefully, with the doc monitoring you closely, I’d sure think it ought to be possible to wean yourself off the Effexor until you can start with something else. Of course if you don’t have health insurance the "close monitoring" thing might be a problem too. We’ll be sending our best purrs that you are able to find a way to make the transition off of Effexor.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This is my first vent here… I want to get off the Effexor I’ve been taking for depression for almost a year now.  I’ve been more stable than DP’s seen me to be in the past 8 years, in the last 6 months.  Unfortunately, in those last 6 months I also sleep about 12 hours a day, and occasionally I get this "Stoned" sensation where stuff gets blurry and I have trouble thinking of words or figuring out just where I am…I’ll wander and then snap out of my reverie like, two hours later, wondering where the time went. The stuff’s expensive as hell, I have no drug coverage, and there’s no way I can do a master’s thesis in September if I’m sleeping more than I’m awake. If I want back on flight operations, I have to lose the drugs that could affect my ability to control an aircraft. So today I’m at the doctor’s and he tells me that if I quit the stuff, I’m almost guaranteed to relapse. DP’s afraid I will, sometime when no one’s around to stop me from cutting my throat–or someone else’s. I’m in my 20s.  I don’t want to be on this crap for the rest of my life.  Hell, the concept of being stuck on drugs is one of the big reasons I left my depression untreated until I became a menace to people around me as well as myself.  I think I know the symptoms well enough–if I start inflicting injury on myself and viewing life through a red rage haze, it’s time to go back on the pills.  I was depressed, I think, since about age 4 or so, but during that time I only had two severe (ie, want-to-kill-myself) episodes, and those 8 years apart.  The minor rounds I could handle without chemical interference.  At that rate, it’d be 2013 before I needed pills again. That’s a lot of money and a lot of drug-free years. That red haze is starting to creep back a little, since the doc didn’t in any way suggest that this was a "for the rest of my life" kind of thing until just now.  I feel like I’ve gotten suckered into this situation, and that pisses me off. –Enfilade

Over the years, I worked my way through just about all the prescription drugs for depression. At this time, I’ve been on Venlafaxine for several years now; according to my shrink, I’ll never develop an "immunity" to it, the way I gradually did to each other. Ask your doctor to consider it.

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If you do it carefully, with the doc monitoring you closely, I’d sure think it ought to be possible to wean yourself off the Effexor until you can start with something else. Of course if you don’t have health insurance the "close monitoring" thing might be a problem too. We’ll be sending our best purrs that you are able to find a way to make the transition off of Effexor.

Howdy folks! Thanks for all your comments.  I really appreciate it. "Close monitoring’ is easy for me because DP is a medical student. Also, in Canada, visiting the doctor is free.  The only thing I have to pay for is the pills. Now, with DP being a medical student, he and I have gone ’round on this one…while he thinks I should be on /something/, he also is willing to live by my decision, if a bit nervously.  At first he insisted that Effexor couldn’t possibly make me sleepy because his medical journals say it causes insomnia; however, today he met up with a neurophysician friend, who said that there are instances of that side effect on record, so NA NAAAA *sticks out tongue* *Serves you right to believe the studies instead of me PPPPPPTHHH!!!* *ahem* As for side effects, once in a snowstorm I did without for three days and aside from a bit of dizziness (I’ve had far worse from the flu) I was fine.  What I don’t like is, the doc says the stuff isn’t addictive, and yet if I’m not supposed to go off it EVER, I might as /well/ be addicted. What am I on it for?  Well, for the most part, I have my stuff pretty well together.  For 25 years I’d hit "lows", which never lasted more than about 6 hours.  I’d spend those days in my room, watching videos if I could concentrate and lying around if I couldn’t, waiting for the "weather to pass."  I could handle this. My first bad time hit when I started feeling abandoned by my friends, broke up with my boyfriend, had health issues, my grades slipped a bit, and I and got kicked out of the house by my mom for taking a spare to address the grades thing.  I was living on people’s couches and/or the public airport, and wanted a lot of support from my friends that they didn’t or couldnt or didn’t know to give (I’m an independent SOB who didn’t know how to ask for help, so it wasn’t entirely their fault.) I was 17, had done all I wanted to do in my life, and didn’t know how I was going to keep myself fed and sheltered until I got to university, or if it wasn’t maybe ready for me to call my life "finished" since I’d met all my goals. My more recent one involved 7 months of looking for work when my EI ran out and I took a job at the mall.  Another 2 months with a jealous co-worker actively trying to get me fired, a position that involved coercive selling despite what I was told at my interview, more unsuccessful job interviews, and me with a master’s degree going apesh!t from boredom, while DPs life was at its high point and he was celebrating being here in this city while I wanted to grab my duffel bag and go back to living in cars and airports if it’d get me out of here. It takes some pretty bad sh!t to set me off…so while I /am/ a little, er, short-fused at those times, normal life doesn’t evoke depression in me.  I’m hopefully in a master’s program full time next year–academia is a stabilizing lifestyle for me.  Better to do another master’s than end up in the nutty house.  Anyway, I think my life will be pretty stable then–DP is such a calming influence on me.  Sometimes I feel like he’s my nurse.  Of course, on his part, he sometimes tends to be quite naive and carefree/careless, and needs me watching his back.  "Just because YOU wouldn’t steal a car doesn’t mean someone else wouldn’t…so LOCK THE CAR." –Fil

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Effexor isn’t the only antidepressant out there, and your doc is greatly remiss in not considering exploring other meds. There are ADs that don’t cause hypersomnia, and which might be less expensive than Effexor. The problem with Effexor is that quitting cold is not an option; it has to be done gradually and incrementally. Quitting all at once produces an extremely undesirable sensation known as "brain spins," "brain shivers," "brain surges," and other unsavory encephalitic phrases. One person described it to me as feeling like your brain is spinning inside your head. Alternatives are out there, and you deserve to have the chance to explore them. I can only add to what everyone else has said.  AD medication is not yet totally understood.  As sufferers, we have to accept that.  After all, we all would like a perfect world, but it just isn’t there yet.  The best thing is to find a practitioner who is willing to try different medication until the benefit outways the side-effects. Don’t forget you need a few weeks to wean off the old drug, and a few weeks for the new one to start to work properly.  It took me a year or two of trying several different drugs until we found one that has almost no side-effects and works really well.

Absolute agreement. The withdrawal effects, and also trying to figure out if the new drug is starting to work, takes time. In some cases, it’s not just clearing confusion. In the case of the MAO inhibitors, not letting another drug clear (about 2 weeks) can kill you. MAO inhibitors are effective, but they have so many drug and food interactions — potentially lethal ones — that they are avoided. A drug that won’t let you have chocolate, chianti, or aged cheese? Perish the thought!   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If this sounds like a long time, it’s not really.  Almost the first drug you try will help with the AD and you will feel better; from there it’s just a matter of fine-tuning the process so that the side-effects are reduced.  Some people will put up with a bit of sleeplessness, others loss of libido, others jitterness.  You just need to find a drug whose side-effects are acceptable to you. Good luck, and don’t give up, because it *does* help in the long run.  I am feeling fine with my drugs and I’ve almost *no* side-effects.

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On 2005-03-09, Karen penned: Well, I’ll tell you what. I work below a doctor’s office, and EVERY (every single  solitary) day, I watch pharmaceutical reps tote in expensive (and I do mean from the BEST places in town) lunches for everyone. It is absolutely *revolting* to see this kind of "bribing" taking place every day. And you should see the vehicles the reps arrive in. No matter how much pharmaceutical companies cry "but it is SOOOOO expensive to research these very necessary drugs" whenever ever drug prices are brought up, I don’t believe it. I believe their marketing budget far outweighs their research. And how many pens and chairs (I kid you not, I saw two stadium chairs stamped with a huge Nexium logo woven right in at a garage sale this summer) and note pads do you see lying around? Makes me just want to urp.

My SIL worked as a biologist for a major pharmaceutical company and said basically the same thing. — monique, who spoils Oscar unmercifully pictures: http://www.bounceswoosh.org/rpca

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What gets to me about the antidepressant drug business is that it’s very well known that some drugs will work for some people while others will work better for other people. But, the only way to find out which one’s right for you is the brute force approach – try ‘em all until you find one that works for you. There’s very little research that examines which antidepressants work best for which people out in the community and why.   <cynic After all, drug manufacturers are probably doing quite well out of the brute force approach… it wouldn’t be in THEIR best interests to sponsor research that might find a better way. would it? </cynic Actually, there is a lot of research, or at least experience that gets shared among the psychiatrists that really want the information.  They may be specialists in psychopharmacology. Sometimes, the extra training there can get them networking with the right people. I remember a scathing editorial on Medscape.com by a pediatric psychopharmacologist, who was furious at all too many psychiatrists who overprescribe the newer drugs. Why?  Not studying?  Too much influence by pharmaceutical companies? Now, pharmacology has always been one of my interests. I’ve found a surprising number of doctors that don’t know the biochemistry of the multiple classes of drugs useful in different kinds of depression and with different patients, including:    Post-synaptic nonselective of ST and NE, operating on the    catechol-O-methyl-transferase enzyme system    Post-synaptic nonselective of ST and NE, operating on the    monoamine oxidase enzyme system    Pre-synaptic selective ST reuptake inhibitors    "Atypical" pre-synaptic ST reuptake inhibitors    Pre-synaptic nonselective ST/NE reuptake inhibitors    Pre-synaptic selective NE reuptake inhibitors    Anticonvulsants    Lithium    Stimulant amines like Ritalin    Strattera … need I go on?  Something that often gets missed is a patient with mixed anxiety and depression, who may need an anxiolytic as well as an antidepressant. There are also drugs that can help minimize the side effects of some of the psychotropics, such as beta-blockers to minimize the hand tremor common with the anticonvulsant valproate. OK, I’m only a number-cruncher – I freely admit that I know nothing about pharmacology and I’m just spouting speculation. But it does seem to me that an awful lot of published drug studies don’t reflect how medications are really used in the community as opposed to what happens in carefully controlled clinical trials.

Precisely. In the US, the manufacturer applies to the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) with a New Drug Application (NDA) seeking licensing of a new drug. The FDA and the manufacturer agreee on the clinical trials that have been done [1] or need to be done, and, when there is sufficient information, an approval officer or panel decides whether to authorize a license. [1] Earlier in the process, a manufacturer, or independent researcher,     can apply for an Investigational New Drug (IND) application, which     gives the authority to use it in clinical trials.  INDs are not     available by prescription, although there is a "compassionate use"     procedure by which a clinician can request a supply of the     experimental drug for a patient in whom all other therapies have     failed. Each NDA is for a specific list of "indications", or conditions the manufacturer asserts the drug will treat.  Physicians are permitted to prescribe drugs for "off-label" indications not in the manufacturers’ literature. Part of the time, off-label prescribing can be a good way to use the knowledge of experienced physicians, especially for rarer conditions where the manufacturer didn’t want to pay for clinical trials for the other indication. An unfortunate other part of the time, however, we have seen pharmaceutical company representatives pushing off-label indications to increase sales, with no data backing it up. Incidentally, I’m not opposed to all pharmaceutical representatives, often called "detail men".  Some are extremely knowledgeable, help independent researchers and clinicians meet one another, and act as a channel between practicing physicians and the company research department. Others have the ethics of used car salesmen — and that’s increasingly common in their profit-driven upper management. It’s sad to remember that the accepted term for the US prescription drug manufacturers was the "ethical pharmaceutical industry."  At one time, many of the manufacturers really did have a commitment to medicine over short-term profit. In Australia (don’t know whether things are different in the USA) hardly anyone would be able to get their antidepressants prescribed by a psychiatrist – there are just so few of them that even if you’re able to pay privately, the waiting list for an appointment will be months long. You really have to be so ill that you’re a danger to other people (a danger to yourself isn’t enough) to be able to see a psychiatrist quickly. So, most people have to go to a GP to get a prescription, and I guess the shared experience of specialist psychiatrists on choosing an antidepressant isn’t reaching them. Then again, the shrinks are probably too darned overworked to publish what they know…

Quite frankly, then, I’ll put in a suggestion to the Australian medical authorities that they might do well to use computer assistance from one of my research areas: expert systems for prescribing. While my work has more been in cardiology and infectious disease, it’s quite possible to construct a "consultant in a box" that can help a primary physician select drugs and find alternatives. Unfortunately, there is an overall problem of specialist knowledge reaching GPs. In the US, there are several annual studies that show poor dissemination of knowledge. For example, cardiologists (a subspecialty of internal medicine, with their own subspecialties beyond that) usually know what drugs have been found good and bad in treating heart attack or congestive heart failures. Some of the effective drugs are NOT intuitive. Internists don’t have as high a knowledge of the correct drugs. The percentage of primary care physicians that know the most up-to-date therapies tends to be even lower. I must say that cuddling a cat is one of the best ways I’ve found to deal with depression in the short term. I personally find a big, heavy one with long whiskers and loud purrs most effective.

Absolutely.  Purring time should be reimbursable under all insurance plans!

Response:

This is my first vent here… I want to get off the Effexor I’ve been taking for depression for almost a year now.  I’ve been more stable than DP’s seen me to be in the past 8 years, in the last 6 months.  Unfortunately, in those last 6 months I also sleep about 12 hours a day, and occasionally I get this "Stoned" sensation where stuff gets blurry and I have trouble thinking of words or figuring out just where I am…I’ll wander and then snap out of my reverie like, two hours later, wondering where the time went. The stuff’s expensive as hell, I have no drug coverage, and there’s no way I can do a master’s thesis in September if I’m sleeping more than I’m awake. If I want back on flight operations, I have to lose the drugs that could affect my ability to control an aircraft. So today I’m at the doctor’s and he tells me that if I quit the stuff, I’m almost guaranteed to relapse. DP’s afraid I will, sometime when no one’s around to stop me from cutting my throat–or someone else’s. I’m in my 20s.  I don’t want to be on this crap for the rest of my life.  Hell, the concept of being stuck on drugs is one of the big reasons I left my depression untreated until I became a menace to people around me as well as myself.  I think I know the symptoms well enough–if I start inflicting injury on myself and viewing life through a red rage haze, it’s time to go back on the pills.  I was depressed, I think, since about age 4 or so, but during that time I only had two severe (ie, want-to-kill-myself) episodes, and those 8 years apart.  The minor rounds I could handle without chemical interference.  At that rate, it’d be 2013 before I needed pills again.  That’s a lot of money and a lot of drug-free years. That red haze is starting to creep back a little, since the doc didn’t in any way suggest that this was a "for the rest of my life" kind of thing until just now.  I feel like I’ve gotten suckered into this situation, and that pisses me off. –Enfilade

Response:

That red haze is starting to creep back a little, since the doc didn’t in any way suggest that this was a "for the rest of my life" kind of thing until just now.  I feel like I’ve gotten suckered into this situation, and that pisses me off. –Enfilade

Aw Fil, I know *EXACTLY* how you feel.  My doctor put me on Effexor because it’s supposed to help with the pain of Fibromyalgia.  Not *ONCE* did he tell me that the withdrawals from this drug are worse than the withdrawals from heroine – and last longer.  Please, *PLEASE*, don’t quit taking this drug cold turkey (that’s what I did because my doctor wouldn’t help me get off them in a gradual way).  I ended up in the emergency room and found out later that I could have killed myself by doing this. My daughter was also put on Effexor, but for depression.  She wanted to get off of them too, but couldn’t, not even with a gradual withdrawal (as soon as she missed one dose she would have horrible, severe flu-like symptoms. Some other withdrawal symptoms of Effexor that I had are feeling like I was being electrocuted with pulsing shock like feelings all through my body, nausea, heart palpitations, cold sweats, insomnia, dizziness, headaches, shakes, going into fugue states and not remembering where I was or what I was doing (really scary when you’re driving), crying jags and screaming rages. There is supposedly a class-action lawsuit against Wyeth-Ayerst Labs because they knew all about these symptoms but still pushed this drug for all kinds or medical problems besides depression.  There are newsgroup and chat rooms dedicated to nothing but the horrible side effects and withdrawal symptoms of this drug. Here is the result of a google search on Effexor withdrawal symptoms: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=effexor+withdrawals. Again, please be very careful how you go about getting off this drug, if you decide to.  I’ve heard that ClaritinD helps somewhat with the withdrawals. Hugs, CatNipped

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Nipped, That is one of the symptoms I had when I first stepped down the dosage – major flu like symptoms, and extremely exhausted. I am now over that, but it took almost a month.  My dr. said it was a Fibromyalgia flare, and it was because the Effexor had been controlling the symptoms and it wasn’t any more. Honestly, I felt WORSE after this drug than I ever did before as far as the fibro went. It is like it exacerbated it, rather than controlling it. Yeah, for me too.  I really didn’t feel any diminishment of pain from the fibro while I was on the Effexor.  It *did* help the depression that was caused by the fibro (finding out that you’re going to be in constant pain for the rest of your life can be quite depressing).  And you’re right, the pain during withdrawals was definitely worse than the pain I had before I started taking it.  I really don’t know why they haven’t taken this drug off the market – there’s beeen thousands of complaints to the FDA about it.  I think there’s been some *marjor* payoffs regarding this golden goose of the drug company that manufactures it.

It really does work for some people – me for one. When I started it I felt like I’d been woken up after years asleep. I’m not good at describing this sort of thing, but on this drug I actually started to feel like I could DO something – make choices and take actions – that might have some sort of effect on my life. I’d been through the usual list of other antidepressants – some didn’t work at all, some worked for a while, one worked well but I had an allergic reaction to it. I’m down to a really low dose now, but am not keen to stop it altogether in case I slide back into that old black hole again. So I can say it’s been good for me, but obviously it’s not good for everyone and probably is dangerous for some. What gets to me about the antidepressant drug business is that it’s very well known that some drugs will work for some people while others will work better for other people. But, the only way to find out which one’s right for you is the brute force approach – try ‘em all until you find one that works for you. There’s very little research that examines which antidepressants work best for which people out in the community and why.    <cynic After all, drug manufacturers are probably doing quite well out of the brute force approach… it wouldn’t be in THEIR best interests to sponsor research that might find a better way. would it? </cynic

Response:

Hi Enfilade, Just want to let you know I wrote you a private email on this subject.  Let me know if you don’t get it. regards, Christine

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This is my first vent here… I want to get off the Effexor I’ve been taking for depression for almost a year now.  I’ve been more stable than DP’s seen me to be in the past 8 years, in the last 6 months.  Unfortunately, in those last 6 months I also sleep about 12 hours a day, and occasionally I get this "Stoned" sensation where stuff gets blurry and I have trouble thinking of words or figuring out just where I am…I’ll wander and then snap out of my reverie like, two hours later, wondering where the time went. The stuff’s expensive as hell, I have no drug coverage, and there’s no way I can do a master’s thesis in September if I’m sleeping more than I’m awake. If I want back on flight operations, I have to lose the drugs that could affect my ability to control an aircraft. So today I’m at the doctor’s and he tells me that if I quit the stuff, I’m almost guaranteed to relapse. DP’s afraid I will, sometime when no one’s around to stop me from cutting my throat–or someone else’s. I’m in my 20s.  I don’t want to be on this crap for the rest of my life.  Hell, the concept of being stuck on drugs is one of the big reasons I left my depression untreated until I became a menace to people around me as well as myself.  I think I know the symptoms well enough–if I start inflicting injury on myself and viewing life through a red rage haze, it’s time to go back on the pills.  I was depressed, I think, since about age 4 or so, but during that time I only had two severe (ie, want-to-kill-myself) episodes, and those 8 years apart.  The minor rounds I could handle without chemical interference.  At that rate, it’d be 2013 before I needed pills again.  That’s a lot of money and a lot of drug-free years. That red haze is starting to creep back a little, since the doc didn’t in any way suggest that this was a "for the rest of my life" kind of thing until just now.  I feel like I’ve gotten suckered into this situation, and that pisses me off. –Enfilade

Response:

Is there a different antidepressant, with fewer side effects, that your doctor can help you switch over to? Nobody wants to be on meds for the long haul. That goes double for a med that’s causing side effects that are as disruptive to daily living as the problem the medicine is supposed to be relieving. But some people, including me, would be in a permanent state of depression without meds. In my case, even what I USED to think of as a normal state was a low-level state of depression, and I’ve wavered between that and flat-out clinical depression since I was 10. (Which means I’ve been dealing with this for over 30 years.) But it was being downsized a few years ago that brought on a really, REALLY severe and unrelenting case of depression. Finally, I went to the doctor because the symptoms were not only debilitating, they were showing no signs of lifting. The prescription I’m on right now is Celexa (citalopram), and it has helped a lot. It also doesn’t have the side effects you were describing. Maybe you can discuss switching over to that or to a different prescription that will help the depression, minus the side effects you’re getting from the Effexor. My husband is on thyroid medication, permanently, because his thyroid doesn’t produce enough hormone on its own. Friends and relatives of mine take insulin or pills to regulate diabetes, since their bodies don’t produce enough insulin. And there’s no difference between their permanent need for meds, and the fact that my body needs some help getting the serotonin level right. There’s no shame in needing any of those meds, or any other prescription, not even if it’s necessary over the long haul. It’s not fun AT ALL to have to deal with these issues. ( But see if you can work with your doctor to change to a different medication. And if this doc won’t work with you on that, it’s time for a second opinion. Keep us posted. Donna

Response:

Effexor isn’t the only antidepressant out there, and your doc is greatly remiss in not considering exploring other meds. There are ADs that don’t cause hypersomnia, and which might be less expensive than Effexor. The problem with Effexor is that quitting cold is not an option; it has to be done gradually and incrementally. Quitting all at once produces an extremely undesirable sensation known as "brain spins," "brain shivers," "brain surges," and other unsavory encephalitic phrases. One person described it to me as feeling like your brain is spinning inside your head. Alternatives are out there, and you deserve to have the chance to explore them.

I can only add to what everyone else has said.  AD medication is not yet totally understood.  As sufferers, we have to accept that.  After all, we all would like a perfect world, but it just isn’t there yet.  The best thing is to find a practitioner who is willing to try different medication until the benefit outways the side-effects. Don’t forget you need a few weeks to wean off the old drug, and a few weeks for the new one to start to work properly.  It took me a year or two of trying several different drugs until we found one that has almost no side-effects and works really well.   If this sounds like a long time, it’s not really.  Almost the first drug you try will help with the AD and you will feel better; from there it’s just a matter of fine-tuning the process so that the side-effects are reduced.  Some people will put up with a bit of sleeplessness, others loss of libido, others jitterness.  You just need to find a drug whose side-effects are acceptable to you. Good luck, and don’t give up, because it *does* help in the long run.  I am feeling fine with my drugs and I’ve almost *no* side-effects.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What gets to me about the antidepressant drug business is that it’s very well known that some drugs will work for some people while others will work better for other people. But, the only way to find out which one’s right for you is the brute force approach – try ‘em all until you find one that works for you. There’s very little research that examines which antidepressants work best for which people out in the community and why.   <cynic After all, drug manufacturers are probably doing quite well out of the brute force approach… it wouldn’t be in THEIR best interests to sponsor research that might find a better way. would it? </cynic Actually, there is a lot of research, or at least experience that gets shared among the psychiatrists that really want the information.  They may be specialists in psychopharmacology. Sometimes, the extra training there can get them networking with the right people. I remember a scathing editorial on Medscape.com by a pediatric psychopharmacologist, who was furious at all too many psychiatrists who overprescribe the newer drugs. Why?  Not studying?  Too much influence by pharmaceutical companies? Now, pharmacology has always been one of my interests. I’ve found a surprising number of doctors that don’t know the biochemistry of the multiple classes of drugs useful in different kinds of depression and with different patients, including:    Post-synaptic nonselective of ST and NE, operating on the    catechol-O-methyl-transferase enzyme system    Post-synaptic nonselective of ST and NE, operating on the    monoamine oxidase enzyme system    Pre-synaptic selective ST reuptake inhibitors    "Atypical" pre-synaptic ST reuptake inhibitors    Pre-synaptic nonselective ST/NE reuptake inhibitors    Pre-synaptic selective NE reuptake inhibitors    Anticonvulsants    Lithium    Stimulant amines like Ritalin    Strattera … need I go on?  Something that often gets missed is a patient with mixed anxiety and depression, who may need an anxiolytic as well as an antidepressant. There are also drugs that can help minimize the side effects of some of the psychotropics, such as beta-blockers to minimize the hand tremor common with the anticonvulsant valproate.

OK, I’m only a number-cruncher – I freely admit that I know nothing about pharmacology and I’m just spouting speculation. But it does seem to me that an awful lot of published drug studies don’t reflect how medications are really used in the community as opposed to what happens in carefully controlled clinical trials. In Australia (don’t know whether things are different in the USA) hardly anyone would be able to get their antidepressants prescribed by a psychiatrist – there are just so few of them that even if you’re able to pay privately, the waiting list for an appointment will be months long. You really have to be so ill that you’re a danger to other people (a danger to yourself isn’t enough) to be able to see a psychiatrist quickly. So, most people have to go to a GP to get a prescription, and I guess the shared experience of specialist psychiatrists on choosing an antidepressant isn’t reaching them. Then again, the shrinks are probably too darned overworked to publish what they know… I must say that cuddling a cat is one of the best ways I’ve found to deal with depression in the short term. I personally find a big, heavy one with long whiskers and loud purrs most effective.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This is my first vent here… I want to get off the Effexor I’ve been taking for depression for almost a year now.  I’ve been more stable than DP’s seen me to be in the past 8 years, in the last 6 months.  Unfortunately, in those last 6 months I also sleep about 12 hours a day, and occasionally I get this "Stoned" sensation where stuff gets blurry and I have trouble thinking of words or figuring out just where I am…I’ll wander and then snap out of my reverie like, two hours later, wondering where the time went. The stuff’s expensive as hell, I have no drug coverage, and there’s no way I can do a master’s thesis in September if I’m sleeping more than I’m awake. If I want back on flight operations, I have to lose the drugs that could affect my ability to control an aircraft. So today I’m at the doctor’s and he tells me that if I quit the stuff, I’m almost guaranteed to relapse. DP’s afraid I will, sometime when no one’s around to stop me from cutting my throat–or someone else’s. I’m in my 20s.  I don’t want to be on this crap for the rest of my life.  Hell, the concept of being stuck on drugs is one of the big reasons I left my depression untreated until I became a menace to people around me as well as myself.  I think I know the symptoms well enough–if I start inflicting injury on myself and viewing life through a red rage haze, it’s time to go back on the pills.  I was depressed, I think, since about age 4 or so, but during that time I only had two severe (ie, want-to-kill-myself) episodes, and those 8 years apart.  The minor rounds I could handle without chemical interference.  At that rate, it’d be 2013 before I needed pills again.  That’s a lot of money and a lot of drug-free years. That red haze is starting to creep back a little, since the doc didn’t in any way suggest that this was a "for the rest of my life" kind of thing until just now.  I feel like I’ve gotten suckered into this situation, and that pisses me off. –Enfilade

Effexor isn’t the only antidepressant out there, and your doc is greatly remiss in not considering exploring other meds. There are ADs that don’t cause hypersomnia, and which might be less expensive than Effexor. The problem with Effexor is that quitting cold is not an option; it has to be done gradually and incrementally. Quitting all at once produces an extremely undesirable sensation known as "brain spins," "brain shivers," "brain surges," and other unsavory encephalitic phrases. One person described it to me as feeling like your brain is spinning inside your head. Alternatives are out there, and you deserve to have the chance to explore them.

Response:

In article – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is there a different antidepressant, with fewer side effects, that your doctor can help you switch over to? Nobody wants to be on meds for the long haul. That goes double for a med that’s causing side effects that are as disruptive to daily living as the problem the medicine is supposed to be relieving. But some people, including me, would be in a permanent state of depression without meds. In my case, even what I USED to think of as a normal state was a low-level state of depression, and I’ve wavered between that and flat-out clinical depression since I was 10. (Which means I’ve been dealing with this for over 30 years.) But it was being downsized a few years ago that brought on a really, REALLY severe and unrelenting case of depression. Finally, I went to the doctor because the symptoms were not only debilitating, they were showing no signs of lifting. The prescription I’m on right now is Celexa (citalopram), and it has helped a lot. It also doesn’t have the side effects you were describing. Maybe you can discuss switching over to that or to a different prescription that will help the depression, minus the side effects you’re getting from the Effexor.

Celexa is in a different family than Effexor. Celexa, along with Paxil and a few others, is considered an "atypical" selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor. I’ve gotten biochemical enough without getting into why these are considered "atypical" with respect to Prozac, Zoloft, etc. Yes, yes, yes. If one psychotropic drug doesn’t work well, there tend to be alternatives, both within the same family and in different families.   For example, I have intolerable dry mouth with the tricyclic antidepressant amitriptyline (Elavil), but not with the closely related nortriptyline (Pamelor). My husband is on thyroid medication, permanently, because his thyroid doesn’t produce enough hormone on its own. Friends and relatives of mine take insulin or pills to regulate diabetes, since their bodies don’t produce enough insulin. And there’s no difference between their permanent need for meds, and the fact that my body needs some help getting the serotonin level right. There’s no shame in needing any of those meds, or any other prescription, not even if it’s necessary over the long haul. It’s not fun AT ALL to have to deal with these issues. ( But see if you can work with your doctor to change to a different medication. And if this doc won’t work with you on that, it’s time for a second opinion.

Exactly. I find more physicians "stuck" with a very few psychotropic drugs than almost any other class of medications. If an infectious disease specialist only wanted to use 2 or 3 classes of antibiotics, they’d be considered candidates for psychotherapy, or at least intensive retraining. Why can’t psychiatrists bother with the alternativews available to them?

Response:

Too many psychiatrists are overly fixated on single drugs or drug classes. They seem to fixate on the newest drugs, rather than older ones that can be quite effective

Well, I’ll tell you what. I work below a doctor’s office, and EVERY (every single  solitary) day, I watch pharmaceutical reps tote in expensive (and I do mean from the BEST places in town) lunches for everyone. It is absolutely *revolting* to see this kind of "bribing" taking place every day. And you should see the vehicles the reps arrive in. No matter how much pharmaceutical companies cry "but it is SOOOOO expensive to research these very necessary drugs" whenever ever drug prices are brought up, I don’t believe it. I believe their marketing budget far outweighs their research. And how many pens and chairs (I kid you not, I saw two stadium chairs stamped with a huge Nexium logo woven right in at a garage sale this summer) and note pads do you see lying around? Makes me just want to urp.

Response:

What gets to me about the antidepressant drug business is that it’s very well known that some drugs will work for some people while others will work better for other people. But, the only way to find out which one’s right for you is the brute force approach – try ‘em all until you find one that works for you. There’s very little research that examines which antidepressants work best for which people out in the community and why.    <cynic After all, drug manufacturers are probably doing quite well out of the brute force approach… it wouldn’t be in THEIR best interests to sponsor research that might find a better way. would it? </cynic

Actually, there is a lot of research, or at least experience that gets shared among the psychiatrists that really want the information.  They may be specialists in psychopharmacology. Sometimes, the extra training there can get them networking with the right people. I remember a scathing editorial on Medscape.com by a pediatric psychopharmacologist, who was furious at all too many psychiatrists who overprescribe the newer drugs. Why?  Not studying?  Too much influence by pharmaceutical companies? Now, pharmacology has always been one of my interests. I’ve found a surprising number of doctors that don’t know the biochemistry of the multiple classes of drugs useful in different kinds of depression and with different patients, including:    Post-synaptic nonselective of ST and NE, operating on the    catechol-O-methyl-transferase enzyme system    Post-synaptic nonselective of ST and NE, operating on the    monoamine oxidase enzyme system    Pre-synaptic selective ST reuptake inhibitors    "Atypical" pre-synaptic ST reuptake inhibitors    Pre-synaptic nonselective ST/NE reuptake inhibitors    Pre-synaptic selective NE reuptake inhibitors    Anticonvulsants    Lithium    Stimulant amines like Ritalin    Strattera … need I go on?  Something that often gets missed is a patient with mixed anxiety and depression, who may need an anxiolytic as well as an antidepressant. There are also drugs that can help minimize the side effects of some of the psychotropics, such as beta-blockers to minimize the hand tremor common with the anticonvulsant valproate.

Response:

(Snip) But some people, including me, would be in a permanent state of depression without meds. In my case, even what I USED to think of as a normal state was a low-level state of depression, and I’ve wavered between that and flat-out clinical depression since I was 10. (Which means I’ve been dealing with this for over 30 years.)

I have to second this.  These days with managed care, a lot of antidepressants are prescribed by general physicians who frankly don’t have the right pharmocological background.  I’ve been very lucky– in a sense– because my depressions have always been under a psychiatrist’s treatment.  I’m not saying this is true of everyone, but with my history, and my genetics, I have a very strong inclination towards depression.  I would no more try to "tough" out a depression without medication than I would refuse insulin if I were diabetic. I have had the experience of withdrawing off a very tough drug (nardil), and while I never hope to repeat such a thing, it was incredibly important that I do it.  I am now stable on a low dose of Wellbutrin, which seems to have little/no side effects for me. Theresa Stinky Pictures: http://community.webshots.com/album/125591586JWEFwh My Blog: http://www.humanitas.blogspot.com

Response:

This is my first vent here… I want to get off the Effexor I’ve been taking for depression for almost a year now.  I’ve been more stable than DP’s seen me to be in the past 8 years, in the last 6 months.  Unfortunately, in those last 6 months I also sleep about 12 hours a day, and occasionally I get this "Stoned" sensation where stuff gets blurry and I have trouble thinking of words or figuring out just where I am…I’ll wander and then snap out of my reverie like, two hours later, wondering where the time went.

Funny how things work — we are looking at it as an alternative, but only if we can’t tweak the dosage on my present drugs. If Effexor does have a positive effect as well as side effects, there is a reasonable class of alternatives: the "first-generation" tricyclic antidepressants (TCA).  Cheap, and with a different side effect profile. Both Effexor and the TCAs differ from the "second generation" selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRI) in being nonselective: they elevate both serotonin and norepinephrine, rather than just serotonin. The two classes do it by different mechanisms. Effexor works presynaptically, slowing the reuptake into the transmitting cell. TCAs work postsynaptically, inhibiting the enzyme catechol-O-methyl-transferase, which metabolizes serotonin and norepinephrine in The stuff’s expensive as hell, I have no drug coverage, and there’s no way I can do a master’s thesis in September if I’m sleeping more than I’m awake. If I want back on flight operations, I have to lose the drugs that could affect my ability to control an aircraft. So today I’m at the doctor’s and he tells me that if I quit the stuff, I’m almost guaranteed to relapse.

Too many psychiatrists are overly fixated on single drugs or drug classes. They seem to fixate on the newest drugs, rather than older ones that can be quite effective — and usually much cheaper. IIRC, a month’s supply of nortriptyline is around USD $10.  TCAs fall into two families, the first drug of one class being amitriptyline and the first drug of the second being imipramine.  The second group tends to be less sedating, although you can usually minimize sedation by changing drugs within the same group. I’m in my 20s.  I don’t want to be on this crap for the rest of my life.  Hell, the concept of being stuck on drugs is one of the big reasons I left my depression untreated until I became a menace to people around me as well as myself.  I think I know the symptoms well enough–if I start inflicting injury on myself and viewing life through a red rage haze, it’s time to go back on the pills.  I was depressed, I think, since about age 4 or so, but during that time I only had two severe (ie, want-to-kill-myself) episodes, and those 8 years apart.  The minor rounds I could handle without chemical interference.  At that rate, it’d be 2013 before I needed pills again.  That’s a lot of money and a lot of drug-free years.

That may be perfectly good reasoning. Having someone that can get creative with the drugs, seeking less sedating and cheaper alternatives, also can be valid. That red haze is starting to creep back a little, since the doc didn’t in any way suggest that this was a "for the rest of my life" kind of thing until just now.  I feel like I’ve gotten suckered into this situation, and that pisses me off.

Personally, I don’t have a "rest of my life" concern with psychotropic drugs, any more than my cardiac drugs — _IF_ they are appropriately prescribed with plenty of thought.

Response:

<very gently snipped My daughter was also put on Effexor, but for depression.  She wanted to

get off of them too, but couldn’t, not even with a gradual withdrawal (as soon as she missed one dose she would have horrible, severe flu-like symptoms. Hi Nipped, That is one of the symptoms I had when I first stepped down the dosage – major flu like symptoms, and extremely exhausted. I am now over that, but it took almost a month.  My dr. said it was a Fibromyalgia flare, and it was because the Effexor had been controlling the symptoms and it wasn’t any more. Honestly, I felt WORSE after this drug than I ever did before as far as the fibro went. It is like it exacerbated it, rather than controlling it. Thanks for the tip on ClaritinD – I will most certainly try it. Patti

Response:

Hi Nipped, That is one of the symptoms I had when I first stepped down the dosage – major flu like symptoms, and extremely exhausted. I am now over that, but it took almost a month.  My dr. said it was a Fibromyalgia flare, and it was because the Effexor had been controlling the symptoms and it wasn’t any more. Honestly, I felt WORSE after this drug than I ever did before as far as the fibro went. It is like it exacerbated it, rather than controlling

it. Yeah, for me too.  I really didn’t feel any diminishment of pain from the fibro while I was on the Effexor.  It *did* help the depression that was caused by the fibro (finding out that you’re going to be in constant pain for the rest of your life can be quite depressing).  And you’re right, the pain during withdrawals was definitely worse than the pain I had before I started taking it.  I really don’t know why they haven’t taken this drug off the market – there’s beeen thousands of complaints to the FDA about it.  I think there’s been some *marjor* payoffs regarding this golden goose of the drug company that manufactures it. Hugs, CatNipped – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks for the tip on ClaritinD – I will most certainly try it. Patti

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This is my first vent here… I want to get off the Effexor I’ve been taking for depression for almost a year now.  I’ve been more stable than DP’s seen me to be in the past 8 years, in the last 6 months.  Unfortunately, in those last 6 months I also sleep about 12 hours a day, and occasionally I get this "Stoned" sensation where stuff gets blurry and I have trouble thinking of words or figuring out just where I am…I’ll wander and then snap out of my reverie like, two hours later, wondering where the time went. The stuff’s expensive as hell, I have no drug coverage, and there’s no way I can do a master’s thesis in September if I’m sleeping more than I’m awake. If I want back on flight operations, I have to lose the drugs that could affect my ability to control an aircraft. So today I’m at the doctor’s and he tells me that if I quit the stuff, I’m almost guaranteed to relapse. DP’s afraid I will, sometime when no one’s around to stop me from cutting my throat–or someone else’s. I’m in my 20s.  I don’t want to be on this crap for the rest of my life.  Hell, the concept of being stuck on drugs is one of the big reasons I left my depression untreated until I became a menace to people around me as well as myself.  I think I know the symptoms well enough–if I start inflicting injury on myself and viewing life through a red rage haze, it’s time to go back on the pills.  I was depressed, I think, since about age 4 or so, but during that time I only had two severe (ie, want-to-kill-myself) episodes, and those 8 years apart.  The minor rounds I could handle without chemical interference.  At that rate, it’d be 2013 before I needed pills again. That’s a lot of money and a lot of drug-free years. That red haze is starting to creep back a little, since the doc didn’t in any way suggest that this was a "for the rest of my life" kind of thing until just now.  I feel like I’ve gotten suckered into this situation, and that pisses me off. –Enfilade

Hi Enfilade, Effexor is a big time drug to be on for depression – it is usually used for major depression and even some psychotic disorders.  I understand that you want off of the medication because you feel good now – but remember, that is the medication helping you to feel better and control your depression. If you are wanting to try something that won’t turn you into a zombie, ask your doctor about weaning off of it, while being started on something else. If you are taken off of medication completely and you begin to relapse, you could spiral downward before a new drug takes effect (anti-depressants usually take 3-4 weeks before full effect is reached). The consequesnces of that far outweight the benefits of being "drug-free." Also, a relapse is usually worse once being taken off of a medication because of the major changes in the chemicals in your brain… Please be careful I know there is a stigma attached to being on medication for depression, but it is an illness…. Really think of the benefits of the medication vesus the possible results of being off of the medication. Talk to your doc first about switching to a different kind, one that still helps your symptoms, but with less side effects. Good luck

Response:

 This is my first vent here…  I want to get off the Effexor I’ve been taking for depression for  almost a year now.  I’ve been more stable than DP’s seen me to be in  the past 8 years, in the last 6 months.  Unfortunately, in those last  6 months I also sleep about 12 hours a day, and occasionally I get  this "Stoned" sensation where stuff gets blurry and I have trouble  thinking of words or figuring out just where I am…I’ll wander and  then snap out of my reverie like, two hours later, wondering where the  time went.  The stuff’s expensive as hell, I have no drug coverage, and there’s no  way I can do a master’s thesis in September if I’m sleeping more than  I’m awake. If I want back on flight operations, I have to lose the  drugs that could affect my ability to control an aircraft.  So today I’m at the doctor’s and he tells me that if I quit the stuff,  I’m almost guaranteed to relapse.  DP’s afraid I will, sometime when no one’s around to stop me from  cutting my throat–or someone else’s.  I’m in my 20s.  I don’t want to be on this crap for the rest of my  life.  Hell, the concept of being stuck on drugs is one of the big  reasons I left my depression untreated until I became a menace to  people around me as well as myself.  I think I know the symptoms well enough–if I start inflicting injury on myself and viewing life through a red rage haze, it’s time to go back on the pills.  I was depressed, I think, since about age 4 or so, but during that time I only had two severe (ie, want-to-kill-myself) episodes, and those 8  years apart.  The minor rounds I could handle without chemical  interference.  At that rate, it’d be 2013 before I needed pills again.   That’s a lot of money and a lot of drug-free years.  That red haze is starting to creep back a little, since the doc didn’t  in any way suggest that this was a "for the rest of my life" kind of  thing until just now.  I feel like I’ve gotten suckered into this  situation, and that pisses me off.  –Enfilade Hi Fil, I have been on Effexor for about 3 years, and am now in the process of stepping down the dose in order to quit.  I was having some of the same symptoms as you – the feeling of ‘not being there’ is one major one, and the just not caring about things. Plus, I am one of the 5 to 10% that develop high blood pressure while taking it.  I finally told my doc that I WAS going to d/c this, with or without his help. He finally agreed, with the proviso that if I become depressed again I would tell him. It hasn’t been completely easy, but at least I am able to feel again. I hope you can get your dr. to take you off this, and that everything goes ok! Patti

Response:

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – i’ve used this three times for bad panic attacks, and while it does sedate me, the after effects are really awful.  the next day when i wake up, i feel like my body is still asleep, like i have to drag my limbs around.  my teeth kind of buzz in my head (like with SSRI withdrawal), and i feel very "out of it", as though i’m watching myself go through the motions from outside my body (depersonalization?).  my pulse seems high, and i just have trouble doing every day things.  this lasts for at least 32 hours after i take even a minute dose (10 mg, my prescription is for 25).  i’ve taken this before for allergies and never had this reaction.  it feel so much like SSRI withdrawal, i wonder if it could be blocking my Effexor or something? i’m only taking Effexor SR 150 mg regularly, no other meds except Atatax 25mg as needed. -kelly

atarax was originally designed as a mild antihistamine similar to other first generation drugs like benadryl-it had a few other effects that seemed to be useful for treating other conditions one being its sedating ability-it really isn’t an anxiolytic-it was also and still is used as a presurgical med-it helps knock you out. It can potentiate the effects of effexor or vice versa, so you may be more deeply sedated from it. The response you have and the side effects you are having are not uncommon even when the drug is used alone LM

Response:

atarax was originally designed as a mild antihistamine similar to other first generation drugs like benadryl-it had a few other effects that seemed to be useful for treating other conditions one being its sedating ability-it really isn’t an anxiolytic-it was also and still is used as a presurgical med-it helps knock you out. It can potentiate the effects of effexor or vice versa, so you may be more deeply sedated from it. The response you have and the side effects you are having are not uncommon even when the drug is used alone

thanks, i’ll be asking for something different at my next appt.  i can’t use a medication that knocks me out for 32 hours afterwards. -kelly

Response:

Atarax is not a good med for anx/pan. Take a benzo like Xanax or Ativan *as needed*, they actually work.

ok… but for now, all i have is Atarax, and i was wondering if anyone else had any similar experiences with it. -kelly

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – i’ve used this three times for bad panic attacks, and while it does sedate me, the after effects are really awful.  the next day when i wake up, i feel like my body is still asleep, like i have to drag my limbs around.  my teeth kind of buzz in my head (like with SSRI withdrawal), and i feel very "out of it", as though i’m watching myself go through the motions from outside my body (depersonalization?).  my pulse seems high, and i just have trouble doing every day things.  this lasts for at least 32 hours after i take even a minute dose (10 mg, my prescription is for 25).  i’ve taken this before for allergies and never had this reaction.  it feel so much like SSRI withdrawal, i wonder if it could be blocking my Effexor or something? i’m only taking Effexor SR 150 mg regularly, no other meds except Atatax 25mg as needed. -kelly

Atarax is not a good med for anx/pan. Take a benzo like Xanax or Ativan *as needed*, they actually work. Philip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

Question:

simion wrote:

I know the feeling. I get the willies when I visit my family. Can hardly hold a cup of tea.

Good one.

Response:

In message <Cjg9b.8108$4j3.7…@bignews6.bellsouth.net

, Smoove B

<to…@bellsouth.net

writes I have tremors also, but my doc diagnosed them as familial tremors.

I know the feeling. I get the willies when I visit my family. Can hardly hold a cup of tea. But also, being chronically tense, as many obsessional people are, can cause the muscles to tremble. That’s my experience anyway. — simon

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

From: "Mike" mikea…@nobody.net This is something that has bothered me ever since I was a teenager.  I’ve never been able to figure it out, so I thought I would post about it here. Anyway, I have this problem with tremors, and fine motor problems in general.  I first noticed it as a teenager, when lying on my side on the bed, propping my head up with my hand and arm so I could read my homework assignment.  I noticed that I couldn’t move my arm or hand smoothly without causing tremors in the muscles being used for that motion.  Subsequently I learned that this is made much worse when the muscles in question have been stressed (such as propping my head up, or carrying a heavy shopping bag.) Also, the more "strength" I put into the motion, the more exacerbated the tremors. As an example, imagine the motion involved with twisting the throttle on a motorcycle.  That movement induces tremors in my hand, particularly if I tense those muscles, or if they’re tired. Also, I’ve always had some fine motor control problems in other ways – my movements seem more "jerky" than other people.  Course, maybe I’m just obsessing over it (I have OCD, after all.) It doesn’t appear that anyone has ever noticed these symptoms, so I don’t want to exaggerate them.  It doesn’t really affect me, other than just making me curious as to the cause. I’ve done some reading in the past, and my symptoms don’t match Parkinson’s or other similar diseases.  The closest match I can find is the diagnosis of "Essential Tremor", which really isn’t a "true" diagnosis at all, but just a catch-all for tremors without any other obvious cause. Just curious if anyone knows if this type of thing is more common among those with OCD and/or Tourette’s?  I.e., could the same chemical imbalances related to these disorders also have an impact on fine motor control? Thanks, Mike

Hi Mike. Curious question to me ! My son is the one in the family with TS – tics only (and is now 22). But ET, Essential Tremor, runs in my family. My father has it, my sister, my brother, and me. All to different degrees. My dad and sister have very shaky hands. People have asked me if my sister has Parkinson’s due to her shaky hands. My brother and I have it very mild where you just see a paper shake if I am holding it up with  unsupported arms. My sister is now in a study with a neurologist who is doing research to see if there is a connection between ET and Parkinson’s. In fact, I was going to call him and see if he treats TS patients, as well. He is so wonderful! He dxed my father with hydrosephalus (sp?), water on the brain, when all other doctors threw up their arms and gave up. So no answers for you, but seems plausible about your theory. Jan

Response:

This is something that has bothered me ever since I was a teenager.  I’ve never been able to figure it out, so I thought I would post about it here. Anyway, I have this problem with tremors, and fine motor problems in general.  I first noticed it as a teenager, when lying on my side on the bed, propping my head up with my hand and arm so I could read my homework assignment.  I noticed that I couldn’t move my arm or hand smoothly without causing tremors in the muscles being used for that motion.  Subsequently I learned that this is made much worse when the muscles in question have been stressed (such as propping my head up, or carrying a heavy shopping bag.) Also, the more "strength" I put into the motion, the more exacerbated the tremors. As an example, imagine the motion involved with twisting the throttle on a motorcycle.  That movement induces tremors in my hand, particularly if I tense those muscles, or if they’re tired. Also, I’ve always had some fine motor control problems in other ways – my movements seem more "jerky" than other people.  Course, maybe I’m just obsessing over it (I have OCD, after all.) It doesn’t appear that anyone has ever noticed these symptoms, so I don’t want to exaggerate them.  It doesn’t really affect me, other than just making me curious as to the cause. I’ve done some reading in the past, and my symptoms don’t match Parkinson’s or other similar diseases.  The closest match I can find is the diagnosis of "Essential Tremor", which really isn’t a "true" diagnosis at all, but just a catch-all for tremors without any other obvious cause. Just curious if anyone knows if this type of thing is more common among those with OCD and/or Tourette’s?  I.e., could the same chemical imbalances related to these disorders also have an impact on fine motor control? Thanks, Mike

Response:

I have tremors also, but my doc diagnosed them as familial tremors. Brandon "Mike" <mikea…@nobody.net

wrote in message

news:uVOdnb4R7tgonP-iU-KYvg@giganews.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

This is something that has bothered me ever since I was a teenager.  I’ve never been able to figure it out, so I thought I would post about it here. Anyway, I have this problem with tremors, and fine motor problems in general.  I first noticed it as a teenager, when lying on my side on the bed, propping my head up with my hand and arm so I could read my homework assignment.  I noticed that I couldn’t move my arm or hand smoothly

without

causing tremors in the muscles being used for that motion.  Subsequently I learned that this is made much worse when the muscles in question have

been

stressed (such as propping my head up, or carrying a heavy shopping bag.) Also, the more "strength" I put into the motion, the more exacerbated the tremors. As an example, imagine the motion involved with twisting the throttle on a motorcycle.  That movement induces tremors in my hand, particularly if I tense those muscles, or if they’re tired. Also, I’ve always had some fine motor control problems in other ways – my movements seem more "jerky" than other people.  Course, maybe I’m just obsessing over it (I have OCD, after all.) It doesn’t appear that anyone has ever noticed these symptoms, so I don’t want to exaggerate them.  It doesn’t really affect me, other than just making me curious as to the cause. I’ve done some reading in the past, and my symptoms don’t match

Parkinson’s

or other similar diseases.  The closest match I can find is the diagnosis

of

"Essential Tremor", which really isn’t a "true" diagnosis at all, but just

a

catch-all for tremors without any other obvious cause. Just curious if anyone knows if this type of thing is more common among those with OCD and/or Tourette’s?  I.e., could the same chemical

imbalances

related to these disorders also have an impact on fine motor control? Thanks, Mike

Response:

Question:

Wellbutrin doesn’t cause sexual side effects!  Effexor XR worked great for me but is a TOTAL b*tch to withdraw from – even if you miss one day you get nauseated and sick – bad news!  It also caused sexual side effects for me, as does Celexa – I would avoid both Celexa and Effexor XR and go for the BuSpar or try Wellbutrin. ~Melissa

Response:

Wellbutrin doesn’t cause sexual side effects!  Effexor XR worked great for me but is a TOTAL b*tch to withdraw from – even if you miss one day you get nauseated and sick – bad news!  It also caused sexual side effects for me, as does Celexa – I would avoid both Celexa and Effexor XR and go for the BuSpar or try Wellbutrin. ~Melissa

 But thats your response to Effexor Melissa. Everyone is different. I have been on Effexor XR now for about 3 months. Last weekend I missed my first daily dose, I was staying at a friends house and was so busy with things going on that I just forgot to take my Effexor. I experienced no side effects at all – none. The next day I took my usual dose of 75mg without noticing anything out of the ordinary. I don’t think you can’t lump everyone into the same catagory – people respond differently. So far Effexor XR has helped me a lot.

Response:

My wife has been suffering from daily anxiety for some time now. It may be related to her diagnoses of multiple sclerosis over a year ago; her menopausal phase; or her hypothyroidism. After taking hormone replacement therapy and synthroid for the thyroid problem, she still has daily anxiety. She has been treating it with Ativan but her doc recommend an anti-depressent. Here’s the problem: her GP recommends Celexa; her neurologist recommends Effexor; and her psychiatrist recommended Buspar (and maybe a second drug as well.) She tried Prozac years ago and it worked well except she lost all interest in sex or orgasm was near impossible. My question is…can anyone give some insight into possible side effects of the 3 ADs mentioned? What might she expect? What about withdrawl from them? Getting off of Prozac was a bitch. Any help would be appreciated.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My wife has been suffering from daily anxiety for some time now. It may be related to her diagnoses of multiple sclerosis over a year ago; her menopausal phase; or her hypothyroidism. After taking hormone replacement therapy and synthroid for the thyroid problem, she still has daily anxiety. She has been treating it with Ativan but her doc recommend an anti-depressent. Here’s the problem: her GP recommends Celexa; her neurologist recommends Effexor; and her psychiatrist recommended Buspar (and maybe a second drug as well.) She tried Prozac years ago and it worked well except she lost all interest in sex or orgasm was near impossible. My question is…can anyone give some insight into possible side effects of the 3 ADs mentioned? What might she expect? What about withdrawl from them? Getting off of Prozac was a bitch. Any help would be appreciated.

Buspar in not like any other anxiety drug and not use for panick attack. It takes effect after a few weeks and does not interfere with the interest in sex. On the contrary, some say that at high dosage, it helps. The only sundesirable side effects i have experienced with Buspar is, sometimes, dizziness and tiredness. Il helps to take the medication with a very large glass of water. If you experience panick attack you could had attivan or something similar for a couple of days. ap

Response:

Question:

Wish i could give you answers….don’t have them.  Just keep fighting, scream when you can’t stand it and request a shoulder when you want one.

Thanks, feel much less down over it today, I guess most people on this newsgroup must have found it impossible to explain to nonmigrainers how they feel, its so nice to be able to speak to people who understand. Heres praying for a miracle (free) cure that will work for everyone. Liz

Response:

I got a look at paroxetine – it’s Paxil, one of the SSRI antidepressants. The others are Celexa/citralopram, Prozac/fluoxetine, Luvox/fluvoxamine, and Zoloft/sertraline. The amount of fatigue is least in Prozac and Luvox. Funny enough, Paxil generates the most yawning! But other side effects that, in you, might feel like fatigue, vary greatly among the five drugs. I really encourage you to get/buy the Drug Facts & Comparisons book. In my 2001 edition, the info you want is on pgs. 934 and 935. I’ve been on Prozac for 12 years, and for me, it doesn’t seem to cause a lot of noticeable fatigue. But with my sleep apnea, I might not be the best person to be measuring fatigue! Hope this helps! Ginnie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Couldn’t think of a better place to let off some steam and whine.  Just getting over a 3 day migraine, it tried to come back earlier today but went again quickly (that would have been 4 days). I’m taking 40mg of propranolol twice a day and 20mg of paroxetine (Seroxat/Paxil) once a day and 5mg of Maxalt as treatment (10mg and I pass out but I don’t get rebounds which I did with naramig).  I have a wierd form of migraine, the neurologist said that my lifelong appetite problems (didn’t get hungry, felt ill for lack of food, but not hungry, if I never hear are you anorexic again it won’t be too soon) and the balance problems and the migraines that go with it were due to an overall lack of serotonin.  All very well but his reason for that is that I shouldn’t have migraine symptoms for 2 months solid as soon as it gets hot in summer. I’m desperate now to find something that works without the side effects. Adding the paroxetine has stopped the balance problems, vertigo and difficulty judging horizontal distances too.  Means if I feel well enough to care about getting in the car, I’m fit to drive, I used to have to check to see if I could get down the stairs without holding, if I couldn’t I couldn’t drive, if I get car sick when I drive, I have to pull over and ditch the car.  Problem is that the paroxetine makes me extremely tired and if I exert myself one day I’m so tierd the next day I want to cry with exhaustion.  I get headaches with my migraines now, but their so much less unpleasant than the every other sense and my moods up the creek that I quite like them, and I don’t find myself banging my head against the wall because it helps now. If Ijust take the propranolol , well I reviewed my lab book and discovered that I’d been breaking health and safety regulations being in the lab about 1/3 of the time, little accidents, vertigo, mistery bruises from walking into things, nausea and bloating, constipation, diarrhea, mental confusion, anxiety and shear blind terror from feeling like I’m falling constantly. Won’t live like that again, wasn’t worth it.  Equally I’m having to change careers because I’ve been told I won’t get a good reference for lab work but I will for the nonlab based aspects. So any suggestions?  I can’t keep on with this little energy but I can’t stop the paroxetine without a suitable replacement. Thanks for listening Liz

Response:

Just want to tell you you’re not alone. Wish I knew what would give you some help w/o the paroxetine side effects, but I keep getting this benign vestibular thing that I’m not convinced is just inner ear architecture, and it’s no fun. I do hear you. The staircase test is a great idea! Thanks! You might hit a library or a pharmacist who has a copy of Drug Facts and Comparisons… mine’s on loan now, or I’d look it up for you. That book takes whole classes of similar drugs – like anticonvulsants, reviews them as a group, gives comparison charts for indications, labeled and off-label indications, relative activity, side effects, etc. It’s a great way to see your drug in comparison with the others like it, so you can possibly find a different one to try. That’s the book the docs and the pharmacists use, not just the PDA. You can buy it on amazon, for about $150

Question:

Hi Pepsi 46 Just want to wish you all the best i am also a mum of two teenagers, they can be quite a handfull without this kind of problems… Want to wish you and your daugther lots of strength, and best wishes ((((((((((((((((Pepsi JR and SR)))))))))))))))) Jeannette

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – To all who replied to my original post–I can’t thank you enough for your thoughtful and kind answers. I have been very upset about this and trying to help her all I can. The doctor who originally prescribed this medication to her was not very helpful and did not take my daughter’s concerns about the side effects seriously.

Response:

To all who replied to my original post–I can’t thank you enough for your thoughtful and kind answers. I have been very upset about this and trying to help her all I can. The doctor who originally prescribed this medication to her was not very helpful and did not take my daughter’s concerns about the side effects seriously.

Hi again, I can relate to your being upset as I am a parent too. My oldest daughter has shown signs of an anxiety disorder and I have done everything in my power to help her.She refuses my help. Fortunately, your daughter wants help. You have the bond. Use it. I would strongly advise to seek a good Psych doc and/ or grill this one about his intensions. There is no need for your daughter to suffer. Best to you, Steph

Response:

I hope one of you can help with some questions I have. My daughter started suffering from panic attacks–3 hospital visits this month alone. The doctor put her on Zoloft 25.mg–I hope that is the correct dosage. Mg?

The starting dose of Zoloft for someone with panic disorder is 12.5 to 25 mg/day. Benzos (e.g. Xanax, Ativan) are often added initially to help with the temporary side effects of increased anxiety and insomnia. She has been having strange symptons since taking this medicine. Like elecrical currents shooting in her head. A strange numbness in the left side of her face. It goes away–this is not constant.

These are called "paresthesias" and are a symptom of Zoloft withdrawal and can occur if one tapers off Zoloft too rapidly. Is she taking her Zoloft every day? If not, she may be experiencing Zoloft withdrawal. She wants to stop the medication–she feels she can handle these panic attacks with the help of a therapist.

You don’t state her age, but I believe a teenager should have some input into his/her treatment. The ER last night suggested she take one tablet today, none tomorrow

When tapering off Zoloft one should take some Zoloft every day (no skipping days). and then taper off over a 2 week period down to none. She has only been taking these tablets 3 weeks. I don’t know all the ins and outs of side effects for this medication. Could someone please help me with some information. Thank you for your time.

Should she experience the effects of Zoloft withdrawal, she can take some Zoloft that day to diminish them. The details of coming off a psychiatric med should be explained by a professional. Chip

Response:

I started Zoloft at 25 mg too, and if I had to do it again, I would have started at 12.5.  Side effects are common until the body gets used to the changes. Your daughter might do better seeing a psychiatrist since they usually know the medicines for anxiety much better.  Cognitive Behavior Therapy with a therapist would help her a lot, too.  Please let us know how she is doing. Take care, Liz – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I hope one of you can help with some questions I have. My daughter started suffering from panic attacks–3 hospital visits this month alone. The doctor put her on Zoloft 25.mg–I hope that is the correct dosage. Mg? She has been having strange symptons since taking this medicine. Like elecrical currents shooting in her head. A strange numbness in the left side of her face. It goes away–this is not constant. She wants to stop the medication–she feels she can handle these panic attacks with the help of a therapist. The ER last night suggested she take one tablet today, none tomorrow and then taper off over a 2 week period down to none. She has only been taking these tablets 3 weeks. I don’t know all the ins and outs of side effects for this medication. Could someone please help me with some information. Thank you for your time.

– Problems are only opportunities in work clothes.                            –Henry Kaiser

Response:

To all who replied to my original post–I can’t thank you enough for your thoughtful and kind answers. I have been very upset about this and trying to help her all I can. The doctor who originally prescribed this medication to her was not very helpful and did not take my daughter’s concerns about the side effects seriously.

Response:

pepsi46 asked: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I hope one of you can help with some questions I have. My daughter started suffering from panic attacks–3 hospital visits this month alone. The doctor put her on Zoloft 25.mg–I hope that is the correct dosage. Mg? She has been having strange symptons since taking this medicine. Like elecrical currents shooting in her head. A strange numbness in the left side of her face. It goes away–this is not constant. She wants to stop the medication–she feels she can handle these panic attacks with the help of a therapist. The ER last night suggested she take one tablet today, none tomorrow and then taper off over a 2 week period down to none. She has only been taking these tablets 3 weeks. I don’t know all the ins and outs of side effects for this medication. Could someone please help me with some information. Thank you for your time.  

Hi, 25 mgs of Zoloft is the usual dose daily for panic disorder initially. It is not unusual for your daughter to be having these side effects. It takes a good 8 weeks or so to wean onto an antidepressant. Actually my drug handbook states that after 1 week the dosage should be upped to 50 mgs, max dose being 200 mgs per day which of course depends on the patient and how they tolerate the med.I would strongly suggest you discuss this with her Physician or P-doc ASAP.You could always call a pharmacy and ask about the S/E if you cannot talk to the Dr soon enough. I was on Zoloft once but it did not help me. I hope your daughter finds relief soon. Take care, Steph

Response:

I hope one of you can help with some questions I have. My daughter started suffering from panic attacks–3 hospital visits this month alone. The doctor put her on Zoloft 25.mg–I hope that is the correct dosage. Mg? She has been having strange symptons since taking this medicine. Like elecrical currents shooting in her head. A strange numbness in the left side of her face. It goes away–this is not constant. She wants to stop the medication–she feels she can handle these panic attacks with the help of a therapist. The ER last night suggested she take one tablet today, none tomorrow and then taper off over a 2 week period down to none. She has only been taking these tablets 3 weeks. I don’t know all the ins and outs of side effects for this medication. Could someone please help me with some information. Thank you for your time.  

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I hope one of you can help with some questions I have. My daughter started suffering from panic attacks–3 hospital visits this month alone. The doctor put her on Zoloft 25.mg–I hope that is the correct dosage. Mg? She has been having strange symptons since taking this medicine. Like elecrical currents shooting in her head. A strange numbness in the left side of her face. It goes away–this is not constant. She wants to stop the medication–she feels she can handle these panic attacks with the help of a therapist. The ER last night suggested she take one tablet today, none tomorrow and then taper off over a 2 week period down to none. She has only been taking these tablets 3 weeks. I don’t know all the ins and outs of side effects for this medication. Could someone please help me with some information. Thank you for your time.  

The electrical currents are Brain shivers which are common with antidepressant medications. But what you and your daughter need to do is contact the doctor that prescribed the Medication and he will help her withdraw from the medication and perhaps start her on something else. SHe should wean with the doctor and he will evaluate her progress. Otherwise the doctor will not know what is going on. I had experienced the brain shivers with Effexor but they were not enough for me to stop taking the medication. But if she is having panic attacks, her treatment may include a benzodiazepine such as Xanax or Ativan, which would help her calm down within a half hour of the attack. I wish you and your daughter well.Julie

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I have been plagued by this question ever since the Glen and Greg fiasco. If I say something that upsets or offends someone… am I to suffer the same fate as Glen and Greg?  Will I be rejected and flammed and ostricized for my posts? I am *not* being sarcastic.  I am very serious, and scared.  This is really concerning me… and I hesitate to post anything ‘political’ now… for fear it might happen.  I hate walking on eggshells… it makes me feel even more fake. The last thing I need right now is to lose my ‘membership’ to this group.  You are all I have right now. Love, Keats xoxox who is sad, confused and scared of being abandoned.

Hi Keats,     Nobody can lose their "membership" unless they are outright abusive or violate one of the other newsgroup rules – which, although I haven’t read the FAQ lately, I assume to be along the lines of no harrassment and no commercial postings.     It’s always possible that one person or another will not like what you have to say.  It’s also possible that in their attempt to express their feelings, someone will make you feel unwanted.     The best thing to do is stay true to yourself, and at the same time stay open to learning from others, even if you disagree (or are disagreed with).     We are imperfect people and this is an imperfect medium of communication.  But there is just so much opportunity to learn and to grow, it would be a shame to let your fear talk you out of continuing to take risks.     Post on! Love, Betsy

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I have been plagued by this question ever since the Glen and Greg fiasco. If I say something that upsets or offends someone… am I to suffer the same fate as Glen and Greg?  Will I be rejected and flammed and ostricized for my posts? I am *not* being sarcastic.  I am very serious, and scared.  This is really concerning me… and I hesitate to post anything ‘political’ now… for fear it might happen.  I hate walking on eggshells… it makes me feel even more fake. The last thing I need right now is to lose my ‘membership’ to this group.  You are all I have right now. Love, Keats xoxox who is sad, confused and scared of being abandoned.

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Keats writes: If I say something that upsets or offends someone… am I to suffer the same fate as Glen and Greg?  Will I be rejected and flammed and ostricized for my posts? I am *not* being sarcastic.  I am very serious, and scared.

Dearest Keats, In response to your concern (which I *totally* understand) that with all the flaming of Glen & Greg that you could be next if someone objected to you…..  I just don’t see it happening.  I usually obsess over stuff like that, and I’m usually very afraid that I will be the next bashing victim of anger that may not eve be there.  But in this case, I don’t think this is likely. I’ve stayed out of this debate, but I think that both Dr.’s G. tended to word their messages (which were often, in my opinion, rather long and preachy) in ways that seemed very condescending.  I believe that they both mean very well and are genuinely concerned about us and the issue of e.d.s.  And I do think they had some good points to make, but there was a lot of (what I considered) superfluous and (imo) preachy stuff that you had to wade through in order to get to the good points.  I think, though, that their main mistakes (not, in my perception, *deliberate* offenses by any stretch of *my* imagination) were in not reading the group long enough before posting, and not thinking about their words before hitting send.  I think the majority is simply errors caused by not learning the ropes here, not figuring out what is said and not said, what the group is capable and not capable of, etc.  And I do believe that there was a bit too much (by *everyone* involved) taking criticisms and anger too personally.  Bottom line, for me:  too many people got hurt.  Hardest part to understand/deal with (imo):  no one *meant* to give offense.  Cause thought, yes.  Hurt others, no. These are the points where I believe a certain level of prejudice entered (from my p.o.v. as well).  1. They’re not coming from strong positions of authority.   2.  They’re men.  Keats, love, you are not handicapped in anyone’s perceptions by either of these two issues. The cause of #1 is a lack of direct experience–not necessarily a lack of concern or desire to learn.  On this group, those of us who are facing/have faced e.d.’s are coming from a position of authority; we know whereof we speak…intimately.  And even though we experiences the e.d.’s and develop the e.d.’s in different ways and for different reasons, we all accept that, at least for each person, those experiences are valid.  These two gentlemen don’t have the validation of *having* the experience, for which, for their sakes, I am grateful.  I believe they *can* have valid points to make on the issue regardless, and there are certainly individuals here who *do* make good points although they’ve not personally experienced an e.d.  I think that their sudden appearance and enthusiastic, frequent postings startled some people and left a bad taste in certain people’s mouths, which I understand, but which I don’t think necessarily invalidates their comments or presence. In terms of point #2, there is a level at which I know some of us (myself very much included) tend to listen less to what men have to say about this issue, especially when they are not directly facing the e.d. themselves. I know that I have serious doubts (this is my own prejudice, for which I apologize if it hurts any feelings; I don’t believe it’s *right*, I just know it’s how I instinctively think and react) about *any* man’s ability to understand how I feel, about *any* man’s ability to understand women’s issues.  This doesn’t mean that I don’t try to explain, or that I never believe they *have* understood, but I often think it’s just too much trouble to explain because I’m so afraid that they won’t understand. I’m sorry for the length and any apparent self-righteousness or offensiveness of this post; I’ve been meaning to say something and never found the time or words or courage. I guess all this boils down to that I have no real problem with Dr.s G remaining, but I hope they will each (as I suspect they have been doing) read a bit more and get more of a feel for what the system is here.  I hope we can all take things less personally, and believe me, I *know* that’s hard.  I take it personally if the *littlest* things happen.  :-) I hope I haven’t said anything too offensive or bad; I just wanted to share what my perception of this whole affair has been. Love, Amilyn

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Dear Keats, PLEASE keep posting.  I love reading what you have to say.  No, not everyone is always going to agree with you, but that’s part of life.  And, I, for one, would not get rid of that part of life for anything.  It is what makes it possible for us all to really connect when we do!  You are an incredibly valuable member of ased (as is everyone else).  Don’t let these fears take you away.  PLEASE. KT — For more information about this service, send e-mail to:

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: If I say something that upsets or offends someone… : am I to suffer the same fate as Glen and Greg?  Will I be rejected and : flammed and ostricized for my posts? : The last thing I need right now is to lose my ‘membership’ to this : group.  You are all I have right now. : who is sad, confused and scared of being abandoned. Keats…         To be completely practical, I see it this way: we know you.  I don’t see us kicking you out for something you say (not that this is like irc where any of us have the *power* to do so).         On a still somewhat practical note:  I dunno who Glen is.  Greg, as far as I remember, posted something about dieting or pills or something totally off base here.  It’s like a satanist posting to alt.christnet or something – you *have* to expect to get flamed doing something like that.  I don’t forsee you posting "New!! Exciting new diet pill on the horizon!! Just 19.95!"         On a not so practical note:  if anyone tries to ban you from here, I’ll have to kick some ***           I will NOT abandon you. *hug* Charlene — For more information about this service, send e-mail to:

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Heya Keats : If I say something that upsets or offends someone… : am I to suffer the same fate as Glen and Greg?  Will I be rejected and : flammed and ostricized for my posts? The honest answer is "It depends on how and what you write". As an extension to that, I don’t believe for one second that _anyone_ could possibly react negatively to anything which _you_ could write, Keats. As Amilyn pointed out in her post, you have an intimate understanding of EDs – of the issues which need to be skated around delicately, and of instances where tip-toeing is the best policy. Even if you were to say something which caused a negative reaction, I don’t think rejection or ostracizion (sp?!) would result. Much of the problem, I feel, with the Dr.s is that people possibly feel they’re, ummm, "outsiders?". Do you see what I mean? To some, maybe they haven’t yet proven themselves; by which I mean their empathy or ability to express their concerns in ways which _don’t_ cause negative reactions. (Greg: I *will* respond to your e-mail, btw, just as soon as I get the time. Bear with me. You, Keats, do have this empathy and the ability to express yourself delicately, clearly, and in cases where clarification _is_ needed, I think you’ve been quite responsive. Speaking from a purely personal point of view, I *hope* I’ve demonstrated some of this ability and empathy myself, as I don’t have an ED. If I haven’t, I wish someone would _please_ tell me..? The last thing anyone wants is to cause others upset. And in as much as that is true, none of us want to be rejected either. : Love, : Keats : xoxox : who is sad, confused and scared of being abandoned. Not a chance, sweetie. Not a _chance_. *HUG* Lots of love, Dave —  ! NOTE: THIS E-MAIL ADDRESS INVALID FROM 15 JUNE 1996 UNTIL FURTHER NOTICE !  ! It’s so easy to become unhappy. It’s harder to work on happiness, because!  ! to be unhappy you’ve just got to sit and wait for it. For happiness, you !  !   need to get up, get out, and grab it. (Message to S.S., 26 June 1995)  !

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I have been plagued by this question ever since the Glen and Greg fiasco. If I say something that upsets or offends someone… am I to suffer the same fate as Glen and Greg?  Will I be rejected and flammed and ostricized for my posts? I am *not* being sarcastic.  I am very serious, and scared.  This is really concerning me… and I hesitate to post anything ‘political’ now… for fear it might happen.  I hate walking on eggshells… it makes me feel even more fake. The last thing I need right now is to lose my ‘membership’ to this group.  You are all I have right now. Love, Keats xoxox who is sad, confused and scared of being abandoned.

Keats,  I know you are being *very* serious, because i worry about the self-same question all the time. I guess that as long as we don’t say anything really hurtful… then we will be okay… now posts are open to a lot of misinterpretation..the very nature of e-d’s make us more vvulnerable and someone. feeling very fragile may be hurt by something  any of us write… but if someone is offended/hurt  by anything YOU say… then i will be very, very surprised Keats… Keats,  you have so much compassion and understanding…i have severe doubts of you ever saying anything to hurt anyone else.. whether it is by accident or by design… please keep posting… i think the majority, if not all of us will fear at least once that something we write will hurt someone.. however unintentionally… and Keats,  no, we would NEVER abandon you  {{{{{ HUGS }}}}}} take good care of yourself.. don’t be afraid to post what is in your heart.. for your heart is full of kindness and love… love and extra special hugs because i think  you deserve them Susan

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have been plagued by this question ever since the Glen and Greg fiasco. If I say something that upsets or offends someone… am I to suffer the same fate as Glen and Greg?  Will I be rejected and flammed and ostricized for my posts? I am *not* being sarcastic.  I am very serious, and scared.  This is really concerning me… and I hesitate to post anything ‘political’ now… for fear it might happen.  I hate walking on eggshells… it makes me feel even more fake. The last thing I need right now is to lose my ‘membership’ to this group.  You are all I have right now. Love, Keats xoxox who is sad, confused and scared of being abandoned.

        We all have these feelings of insecurity sometimes, I think.  In this case it’s clearly irrational.  You’re one of us, one of the people this group exists for, not some outsider trying to use us to feed your bank book or your ego.  We all know and love you and we would never ostracise you — even if you suddenly start posting pyramid scams and ads for diet pills and asking for our credit card numbers we wouldn’t ostracise you; we’d ask what was going on and if somebody had hacked into your account.  <HUG -Cougar Allen :{) The Moving Finger writes; and having writ, Moves on: nor all thy Piety nor Wit Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line, Nor all thy Tears wash out a Word of it.

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writes: If I say something that upsets or offends someone… : am I to suffer the same fate as Glen and Greg?  Will I be rejected and : flammed and ostricized for my posts? : The last thing I need right now is to lose my ‘membership’ to this : group.  You are all I have right now. : who is sad, confused and scared of being abandoned.

Keats, No one can kick you out.  As long as you can turn on your machine, you can and have the right to read and write here.  As for me, I will never abandon you; I’ve been there too many times.  Also, the way I look at it, everyone has the right to their own opinons, that’s what makes them unique.  Some, I don’t look forward to reading, some I do. Now, woman, if you stop writing, I’ll be upset.  You’re a neat person with more insight than you give yourself credit for.  Okay. Hope you’ve got some sunshine up your way, Pj

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Question:

(I crossposted this to alt.eating-disord–those people might prefer to skip to the bottom) The way *I* got checked for sleeping disorders was in the Sleeping Disorders unit at our University Hospital (since we have a college of medicine, we are fortunate enought to have all these latest, greatest, forward-thinking research physicians).  I would suggest a) checking for a doctor or clinic in your area or as far as you’re willing to travel; and b) discussing it further with your primary care physician.  If he still doesn’t refer you, you might consider the cost of one visit–and discuss it thoroughly with the doctor or secretary on the phone FIRST, before you just go in and blah blah.  It might even help to have the doctors who HAVE seen you forward your charts FIRST. The first thing he did was put me on Zoloft. (like Prozac, or any other antidepressant)  THE VERY FIRST NIGHT, I slept through.  I still have trouble FALLING to sleep, but once asleep, I don’t wake more than once or twice until morning.  He is still going to get me into the sleep disorder lab one night to check apnea; I will let you all know what happens. Incidentally, the other side-effects of zoloft were a jackpot to me:  I am much calmer, lessened appetite, smoke less, and can even concentrate better. Donna

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I have been cured of sleep apnea by the use of a machine that helps me sleep. my life has transformed and i will tell my story to anyone interested. — "The rule which forbids ending a sentence with a preposition is the kind of nonsense up with which I will not put."         -Winston Churchill

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