Prescription Medication Knowledge Base » Of Flovent And » Ethmoid problem?

Ethmoid problem?

Question:

Thank you for the specific advice re: irrigation. Much appreciated. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Duncan Robertson wrote: Hi!

I had trouble with my maxillary sinuses before last April when I began to irrigate my nose with saline/ bicarbonate and after that found Dr.Jones’s papers on xylitol. Now, after nearly six months’ regular spraying/irrigation with 10% xylitol in normal saline, my sinuses don’t pain any more and discharges are a thing of the past. So, listen to the voice crying in the wilderness, irrigate your nose intensively with xylitol soln., inclininng your head to the side to let the fluid gather where the ethmoid sinus openings are, high up on the lateral wall of your nasal cavity. Irrigate 2ml at a time, and let the stuff have time to penetrate. Don’t blow your nose hard to expel the stream of mucus. After, say, a week, you should begin to feel less congestion and some relief of the pain. Xylitol comes in when all the antibiotics have tried and failed. best of luck, Duncan.

Response:

NBoles613 wrote:

Hi, Instead of blindly letting the doctors switch you from antibiotic to antibiotic, my advice is to find an ENT who will do a sinus culture. I have this done whenever I get an infection because I will not tolerate the primary care docs guessing games with abx anymore after a lifetime of mismanagement of my sinuses. The ENT should go as far into the sinus as he can to get an accurate swab. When done by an experienced ENt this is not painful. All I feel is stinging and its over rather quickly. After having packing removed 10 days post-sugery everyhing else is a piece of cake! Rread my latest post on "Pseudomonas from Water Pik" and you’ll see why the culture is so important. Best of luck, Nadine

Thank you, Nadine–I’ll be sure to ask the ENT about this. That’s very helpful advice. I’ve been thinking about a culture/sensitivity, actually, and wondering why they don’t seem to do them more routinely for humans? When I take my pet birds to the avian vet, they invariably do a C/S to find out which drug to use when there’s an infection. zg (Ziggy Blum)

Response:

The reason this isn’t done routinely is because many ENT’s beleive that sinus culturing is not accurate due to so much normal flora in the sinus and nose that can cause false results. My ENT looks up my nostril with a high intensity light and holds the nostril open with a short, bent hemostat. When he sees a pustule or mucus he samples directly from it. Just swabbing the inside of the nose is worthless. Its not painful, just a minute of dicomfort that is well worth it. Nadine – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

I’ve been thinking about a culture/sensitivity, actually, and wondering why they don’t seem to do them more routinely for humans?

Response:

Hi, Instead of blindly letting the doctors switch you from antibiotic to antibiotic, my advice is to find an ENT who will do a sinus culture. I have this done whenever I get an infection because I will not tolerate the primary care docs guessing games with abx anymore after a lifetime of mismanagement of my sinuses. The ENT should go as far into the sinus as he can to get an accurate swab. When done by an experienced ENt this is not painful. All I feel is stinging and its over rather quickly. After having packing removed 10 days post-sugery everyhing else is a piece of cake! Rread my latest post on "Pseudomonas from Water Pik" and you’ll see why the culture is so important. Best of luck, Nadine

Response:

And thanks very much for the non-surgery perspective as well. I am not at all eager for such surgery, and am *definitely* going to look into all options thoroughly before embarking on it! thanks again, zg

Response:

Follow-up note–my allergist brought up the subject before I did today and recommended an ENT. I’ll be glad to see him and get his perspective, but certainly won’t be rushing into anything. It actually feels a little funny to be talking about anything as selfish as sinuses on a day like this. At least I have sinuses to talk about. zg

Response:

"Pythoness" <zig…@efn.org

wrote in message

news:3B9EBF77.2F900807@efn.org…

And thanks very much for the non-surgery perspective as well. I am not at all eager for such surgery, and am *definitely* going to look into all options thoroughly before embarking on it! thanks again, zg

Hi! I had trouble with my maxillary sinuses before last April when I began to irrigate my nose with saline/ bicarbonate and after that found Dr.Jones’s papers on xylitol. Now, after nearly six months’ regular spraying/irrigation with 10% xylitol in normal saline, my sinuses don’t pain any more and discharges are a thing of the past. So, listen to the voice crying in the wilderness, irrigate your nose intensively with xylitol soln., inclininng your head to the side to let the fluid gather where the ethmoid sinus openings are, high up on the lateral wall of your nasal cavity. Irrigate 2ml at a time, and let the stuff have time to penetrate. Don’t blow your nose hard to expel the stream of mucus. After, say, a week, you should begin to feel less congestion and some relief of the pain. Xylitol comes in when all the antibiotics have tried and failed. best of luck, Duncan.

Response:

On 11 Sep 2001 13:34:05 -0700, ray_kill…@hotmail.com (Ray Killeen) wrote:

There are some very knowledgeable people on this site who give out good advise most of the time however the vocal group is the group that is quick to recommend an ENT or operation. Unfortunately most ENTs are practicing surgeons who are looking for new victims,I mean patients,so you will get a similar response from most of them also. You may need an operation but you may also have many options to try prior to it.

I agree that surgery should not be undertaken lightly, especially given that the experience and techniques of surgeons vary widely, and that some are likely to recommend procedures too casually or do them inappropriately (taking shortcuts to save time). Also, don’t forget that the anesthetic is a risk. On the other hand, there can be risks in *not* having surgery in some cases.

Definitely see an ENT but also consider the following. Are you irrigating with a Waterpick? Definitely irrigate morning and night with an addition salt-water sniff at lunch. Have you considered steroid nasal sprays topical antibiotics and lets not forget the Xylitol? Have you read "Sinus Cure" and "Sinus Survival". Have you considered how physiologically sensitive your nose and sinus area is before allowing a surgeon to mutilate, I mean operate on them. If in the end you decide to take the plunge make sure you consider the same doctor Don went to, he seems to be satisfied and his doctor as far as I am concerned is definitely the most experienced.

Yes I am satisfied with David Kennedy MD, chairman of the Dept. of Otolarynogology of U. Penn. Philadelphia, Chief of Otolaryngology at the Hospital of U. Penn., and the pioneer of endoscopic sinus surgery in the U.S. He also is one of the best comunicators I have met, which I value a lot. He will frankly state statistics that surgery will help and will not do it unless he thinks it will. But you will wait 6 months to see him, if he will see you. Seeing someone like that enormously increases odds of success because they publish their success rates and their reputation rides on not having a disaster. It’s best to have some CT scans ready to send him by mail first. You might want to see some others first so that you can educate yourself as to what to ask, get CT scans etc. But yes, explore all options carefully, non-surgical and surgical. I put off surgery for many years before having it. (But I never had pain etc.) On the one hand, my sinusitis progressed into all sinuses during that period. On the other hand, techniques improved in a major way and I educated myself toward a better decision, I think.

Response:

yep, see an ENT. I went years without knowing I had a deviated septum(much of my left side was supposedly blocked) and acid reflux into my sinuses which damages the sinuses(hard to believe, since I never feel acid in my chest) until I recently went to an ENT. Allergists and other doctors never mentioned anything about a deviated septum or acid reflux. Some type of sinus surgery may help you greatly. An ENT will probably look up your nose with a flexible camera/light and maybe order a CAT Scan of your sinuses, which can diagnose structural problems far better than regular X-rays. At first my ENT took an X-ray and thought things looked better than he thought based on the X-ray. Then I had the CT scan and he could see that my septum was deviated and hampering drainage and causing sinus infections. http://www.meetotheradults.cm http://www.photographsofnature.com "Don Brady" <dbr…@pobox.com

wrote in message

news:jSidOxokdthdtfUrdQGtSzO7fCk0@4ax.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

On Mon, 10 Sep 2001 13:17:38 -0700, Pythoness <zig…@efn.org wrote: Hi– I’ve lurked here on & off for sometime but I don’t recall posting before (might’ve once or twice). I’ve had minor chronic sinusitis for a looong time (ie, pain and some yellow discharge periodically, especially during allergy season), but acute flareups (with fever and discharge) have been limited to once or twice a year and responded well to ampicillin or Zithromax. Over the last couple of months I’ve had an altogether new and awful problem involving wandering mild to moderate facial pain, vague stuffiness, and, by far the worst of all, a pungent and persistant smell of acrid smoke that varies from mild to appalling. No discharge. Both my GP and my allergist diagnosed infection, and a CT scan showed thickening in my ethmoid cells, which apparently is consistant with middle-of-the-face pain and weird smells. The problem is that it’s just not budging. My GP gave me Augmentin, which I proved to be allergic to. Then I went to my allergist, who gave me Zithromax. The smell and pain went down to nonexistant and sprang right back up again. She then gave me Biaxin, which after a week had produced no result whatsoever, and I was having ear pain and fever, so she switched me to two weeks of Tequin. After one week I thought the Tequin was really going to do the job–I had two days where the pain was minimal and I only experienced the smell for a few seconds a day. Then I took an antihistimine so I could get my regular allergy shot, and to my extreme disappointment ALL the symptoms returned within a couple hours–the smell and the pain and the lassitude. ARRRRRGHH! Well antihistamines do dry out and can restrict mucous flow. Really they

are

not a good idea if you have sinusitis. That was Thursday. I continued to improve slowly until yesterday, when I felt almost normal–and today the smell is back, the pain is back, I have a (very) low fever, *and* a slight bloody yellow discharge. I have never experienced anything like this and I’m feeling pretty helpless. I’m asthmatic and sinus infections always act as a trigger, so I’m on a heavier than usual dose of Flovent and I’m not happy about that either. I’m irrigating once or twice a day (per allergist’s instructions) with salt water. I’ve had unusual tenderness above my left eyebrow and just under my left eye–to a lesser extent on the other side as well. Any suggestions or information would be welcomed. Thanks. I would see an otolaryngologist specializing in sinuses as well as an allergist. You need both.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Pythoness wrote:

Hi– I’ve lurked here on & off for sometime but I don’t recall posting before (might’ve once or twice). I’ve had minor chronic sinusitis for a looong time (ie, pain and some yellow discharge periodically, especially during allergy season), but acute flareups (with fever and discharge) have been limited to once or twice a year and responded well to ampicillin or Zithromax. Over the last couple of months I’ve had an altogether new and awful problem involving wandering mild to moderate facial pain, vague stuffiness, and, by far the worst of all, a pungent and persistant smell of acrid smoke that varies from mild to appalling. No discharge. Both my GP and my allergist diagnosed infection, and a CT scan showed thickening in my ethmoid cells, which apparently is consistant with middle-of-the-face pain and weird smells. The problem is that it’s just not budging.

Congratulations. You have reached the point where it’s time to consider surgery. We all end up that way eventually. Please contact an ENT who has extensive experience in endoscopic sinus surgery (several hundred operations at least), and discuss it with him. As my ENT said: "Every sinus patient starts out trying antibiotics, home remedies, and everything else they can think of. Then, after years go by, and they just can’t take it anymore, then they go for surgery." — Steven D. Litvintchouk Email: sdlit…@earthlink.net "I guess I could have paid a little closer attention when I was in English class, but it all worked out OK. I’m gainfully employed." – President George W. Bush

Response:

Steven Litvintchouk wrote:

Congratulations. You have reached the point where it’s time to consider surgery. We all end up that way eventually.

Heigh ho; I suspected as much. Thanks for the advice, Steven et al! I’ll ask for a referral to an ENT at my next appointment this week. zg

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Pythoness <zig…@efn.org

wrote in message <news:3B9D1FE2.34675130@efn.org… Hi– I’ve lurked here on & off for sometime but I don’t recall posting before (might’ve once or twice). I’ve had minor chronic sinusitis for a looong time (ie, pain and some yellow discharge periodically, especially during allergy season), but acute flareups (with fever and discharge) have been limited to once or twice a year and responded well to ampicillin or Zithromax. Over the last couple of months I’ve had an altogether new and awful problem involving wandering mild to moderate facial pain, vague stuffiness, and, by far the worst of all, a pungent and persistant smell of acrid smoke that varies from mild to appalling. No discharge. Both my GP and my allergist diagnosed infection, and a CT scan showed thickening in my ethmoid cells, which apparently is consistant with middle-of-the-face pain and weird smells. …

There are some very knowledgeable people on this site who give out good advise most of the time however the vocal group is the group that is quick to recommend an ENT or operation. Unfortunately most ENTs are practicing surgeons who are looking for new victims,I mean patients,so you will get a similar response from most of them also. You may need an operation but you may also have many options to try prior to it. Definitely see an ENT but also consider the following. Are you irrigating with a Waterpick? Definitely irrigate morning and night with an addition salt-water sniff at lunch. Have you considered steroid nasal sprays topical antibiotics and lets not forget the Xylitol? Have you read "Sinus Cure" and "Sinus Survival". Have you considered how physiologically sensitive your nose and sinus area is before allowing a surgeon to mutilate, I mean operate on them. If in the end you decide to take the plunge make sure you consider the same doctor Don went to, he seems to be satisfied and his doctor as far as I am concerned is definitely the most experienced.

Response:

Hi– I’ve lurked here on & off for sometime but I don’t recall posting before (might’ve once or twice). I’ve had minor chronic sinusitis for a looong time (ie, pain and some yellow discharge periodically, especially during allergy season), but acute flareups (with fever and discharge) have been limited to once or twice a year and responded well to ampicillin or Zithromax. Over the last couple of months I’ve had an altogether new and awful problem involving wandering mild to moderate facial pain, vague stuffiness, and, by far the worst of all, a pungent and persistant smell of acrid smoke that varies from mild to appalling. No discharge. Both my GP and my allergist diagnosed infection, and a CT scan showed thickening in my ethmoid cells, which apparently is consistant with middle-of-the-face pain and weird smells. The problem is that it’s just not budging. My GP gave me Augmentin, which I proved to be allergic to. Then I went to my allergist, who gave me Zithromax. The smell and pain went down to nonexistant and sprang right back up again. She then gave me Biaxin, which after a week had produced no result whatsoever, and I was having ear pain and fever, so she switched me to two weeks of Tequin. After one week I thought the Tequin was really going to do the job–I had two days where the pain was minimal and I only experienced the smell for a few seconds a day. Then I took an antihistimine so I could get my regular allergy shot, and to my extreme disappointment ALL the symptoms returned within a couple hours–the smell and the pain and the lassitude. ARRRRRGHH! That was Thursday. I continued to improve slowly until yesterday, when I felt almost normal–and today the smell is back, the pain is back, I have a (very) low fever, *and* a slight bloody yellow discharge. I have never experienced anything like this and I’m feeling pretty helpless. I’m asthmatic and sinus infections always act as a trigger, so I’m on a heavier than usual dose of Flovent and I’m not happy about that either. I’m irrigating once or twice a day (per allergist’s instructions) with salt water. I’ve had unusual tenderness above my left eyebrow and just under my left eye–to a lesser extent on the other side as well. Any suggestions or information would be welcomed. Thanks. Ziggy

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -On Mon, 10 Sep 2001 13:17:38 -0700, Pythoness <zig…@efn.org

wrote: Hi– I’ve lurked here on & off for sometime but I don’t recall posting before (might’ve once or twice). I’ve had minor chronic sinusitis for a looong time (ie, pain and some yellow discharge periodically, especially during allergy season), but acute flareups (with fever and discharge) have been limited to once or twice a year and responded well to ampicillin or Zithromax. Over the last couple of months I’ve had an altogether new and awful problem involving wandering mild to moderate facial pain, vague stuffiness, and, by far the worst of all, a pungent and persistant smell of acrid smoke that varies from mild to appalling. No discharge. Both my GP and my allergist diagnosed infection, and a CT scan showed thickening in my ethmoid cells, which apparently is consistant with middle-of-the-face pain and weird smells. The problem is that it’s just not budging. My GP gave me Augmentin, which I proved to be allergic to. Then I went to my allergist, who gave me Zithromax. The smell and pain went down to nonexistant and sprang right back up again. She then gave me Biaxin, which after a week had produced no result whatsoever, and I was having ear pain and fever, so she switched me to two weeks of Tequin. After one week I thought the Tequin was really going to do the job–I had two days where the pain was minimal and I only experienced the smell for a few seconds a day. Then I took an antihistimine so I could get my regular allergy shot, and to my extreme disappointment ALL the symptoms returned within a couple hours–the smell and the pain and the lassitude. ARRRRRGHH!

Well antihistamines do dry out and can restrict mucous flow. Really they are not a good idea if you have sinusitis.

That was Thursday. I continued to improve slowly until yesterday, when I felt almost normal–and today the smell is back, the pain is back, I have a (very) low fever, *and* a slight bloody yellow discharge. I have never experienced anything like this and I’m feeling pretty helpless. I’m asthmatic and sinus infections always act as a trigger, so I’m on a heavier than usual dose of Flovent and I’m not happy about that either. I’m irrigating once or twice a day (per allergist’s instructions) with salt water. I’ve had unusual tenderness above my left eyebrow and just under my left eye–to a lesser extent on the other side as well. Any suggestions or information would be welcomed. Thanks.

I would see an otolaryngologist specializing in sinuses as well as an allergist. You need both.

Response:

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Prescription Medication Knowledge Base » Zoloft Dose » Splitting zoloft dose up twice a day….is it OK?

Splitting zoloft dose up twice a day….is it OK?

Question:

Thanks for the man-hating comments. I’m sure others appreciate it too.

Response:

You did a great job speaking for all of us. Thanks hon.

yer welcome, and i’m usually so quiet’n demure… it WAS’ah stretch. xoxoxoxox ~t

Response:

It takes alot to offend US here. Sounds like this is not the group for you friend. And benzos don’t make you high.

My first and last cigarette made me feel high. All benzo’s ever did was ease my anxiety… I WANT my money back ! ! ! They help with anxiety and PANIC attacks.

Not sure if ARPASH (alt.recovery.panic-anxiety.self-help) is still around but as stated in their FAQ "We do not discuss or compare medications". So this may be the group for a_Friend.

Response:

That may prove to be the case, mama. However, I do have some concern about the amount of prescribing and medical information by non-practitioners. I believe it is against the law in most states and provinces to operate as a physican. And I certainly think it is an ethical issue for professionals to be advising others on the appropriate use of medications in an on-line forum. However, "benzos don’t make you high". ROFL. They are one of the most abused substances that phsycians prescribe for that reason. Nice try, no cigar. De Nile is more than just a river in Egypt, Ms. New Oleans.

Response:

Thanks vanessa, Despite any information in the charter for this group, prescribing and advising online may be a legal issue of acting as a doctor. For those who are practitioners, there is an ethical issue of providing medical advice to any patient without appropriate examination and history. Laws vary from one jurisdiction to the next as I recall. I hope the behaviour is addressed.

Response:

People here merely offer their opinions and share their experiences re medication. In what country/ies are you referring to about the legality of medical advice?

Response:

Thanks vanessa, Despite any information in the charter for this group, prescribing and advising online may be a legal issue of acting as a doctor.

#1, EINSTEIN: nobody’s prescibing medication and there’s no legalities connected with these rooms… tha best yer gonna do’s tha "exit" door and it’s in that lil box in tha upper left hand corner of this square yer lookin ‘ in.. PUSH IT, QUICK ! For those who are practitioners, there is an ethical issue of providing medical advice to any patient without appropriate examination and history.

#2, MR. MENZA: WHO does that? post an example.. and NOT out’ah context.. but just ta make ya right’n give ya grounds ta participate in’ah litigious arena: EVERYONE ::POPPAHCOUPLAHBLUEZ:: IMMEDIATELY, I PRESCRIBE XANAX BLUES OR BARS FOR ALL OF AMERICA ! I AM NOW THA PRESIDENT OF THA WORLD’N THERE’LL BE’AH XANAX IN EVERY POT ! (this is especially attractive for tha stoners of america.) Laws vary from one jurisdiction to the next as I recall.

why you gotta keep on with tha rhetoric… "as i recall" is assumed, we can figger that out. you just like typin? I hope the behaviour is addressed.

3913 SE 26 Del City, OK 73115 there.. yer dreams came true.. it CAN happen ta you.. (you been wishin’ upon stars? cuz yer hazin’ muh groove, dude.. GET OFF’AH MUH CLOUD !) hey hey hee hee ! ~tanya

Response:

Oh, Tanya: "#1, EINSTEIN: nobody’s prescibing medication and there’s no legalities connected with these rooms… tha best yer gonna do’s tha "exit" door and it’s in that lil box in tha upper left hand corner of this square yer lookin ‘ in.. PUSH IT, QUICK !" Of course, there are legal issues. Medical practitioners are governed by the ethics and requirements of their licensing colleges as well as the local laws. I would type more slowly, but I don’t think it would help your comprehension. *winks*

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We disagree, Marie. Each post that I have opened entails some dilemma over the ingestion of some chemical. Frankly, I had enough of the chemicals that will ultimately harm my liver, or my kidneys, or some other necessary system for life. The treatments are worse than the ailments in my view. i see they skipped all them vital organs and went due north’n right SKRAIT for yer last vestige of’ah brain cell. that was mighty generous, in retrospect, doncha think? Now, what I did find interesting was your reply. Interestingly, in merely posing an alternative perspective, you had assumed that I was speaking aobut herbs, or oils, or some other external cure. We are the only species that I know of that has direct and immediate control over our experiential existence. "immediate control"? ROFLMAOOOOOO !!!! "immediate control".. now THERE’s a concept. even if control WAS a possibility, i don’t think you’d have it considerin’ tha option/possibility of sumbody dosin’ ya right quick’n makin’ their own experiment… (it’s called "choice", a_fried) and we excersise tha right to that choice… WELCOME TO AMERICA !!! please take yer seat in tha "i try ta look so enFUCKINlightened but just can’t seem to succeed" corner. happy ta have ya here, yer truly a treasured addition to our country, as ya make us all look like Einstein, by comparison… whad’ah magnanimous gesture ! As to any "failed" attempts, I am curious thoough on what you were expecting ‘them’ to deliver? this ain’t even my question and i can answer that, it’s rocket science, ::lookin’ at tha room topic in case i missed sumthin:: …and another contribution (as aforementioned) to tha world… yer tha poster child for "true humanitarian" !!!!!!! ~ya guessed it ! ~tanya

I gotta admit, I had to look up at the room topic, too…..making sure that I wasn’t missing something here. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

TROLL

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We disagree, Marie.

Response:

You did a great job speaking for all of us. Thanks hon.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As a group, it seems everyone here is pretty dedicated to prescription medication as a source of relief for suffering. Sorry for any offence, but I found the name of this group mislead. alt.support.medsanddocs is more the case. Nothing like a good benzo for a good high…if memory serves. amen. perhaps you ARE in the wrong forum, as we are all REAL anxiety/panic sufferers. yes… medication is a viable and available alternative to the impact of…… a sudden meteoric rise in heartbeat, off the charts, stroke level blood pressure, KNOWING your heart is beating so hard that you are dying at any moment, the humiliation and embarrassment that goes along with "knowing somehow in your head" that this isn’t real, the inability to treat it as "not real", as it’s not possible… ~~THAT knowledge in itself is overwhelming~~ being unable to indulge the coherent awareness/reality of that which we have no control or power over, trying every possible verbosity to explain to others (those of us that are ‘out of the closet’ with our disorder, as THAT is a feat in itself,) the phenomenon manifested and internalized as extremely visible to the world, knowing we cannot IGNORE what is happening in lieu of our intellectual mind set as the current "reality" supercedes this, especially in a public arena, enduring embarrassment of major proportions, having fear as our closest cohort in life, fear of attacks, fear of …including fear that the possibility of having our next prescription denied exists, our "fear" is always by our side, dependable, ever present, persistent if nothing else. to KNOW the world is staring directly at us with judgment as we die die considering the moment of exiting a door from home, for some, a major accomplishment, after 30 years, having missed out on their kid’s first home run, all home runs, the crowning of their daughter as homecoming queen, graduations, family functions, holidays spent alone, enslaving the whole family to the dictation of needs via this disorder, subjecting your children and husband to a life of ‘excuses for mom’s absence’, and the list goes on, to be aware that our goal of "management" is the only thing that separates us from the world in which we dwell and the one possible, to know we are by far not the only victims of this suffering, our friends and family are just as victimized, the burden of guilt …. guilt as we are inflicting our own discomfort on those that love us, a horrific cross to bear, understanding that understanding is not something they do well, and not a thing we can gift them… we don’t understand it ourselves. we are FAR from stupid the creativity we employ to "not be noticed" or even "found out" dictates a creativity, an intelligence level not to be ignored, even an awareness level that is not to be reckoned with. go to the "diabetes support" forum and suggest the participants get the HELL off their meds, pills or insulin. go to the "new mothers in crisis support" forum and suggest they take their 3 month premature baby out of the incubator and out of the hands of … as you so eloquently phrased it "medsanddocs" and of course, remove the oxygen, (nothin’ like’ah good dose of oxygen for a good high). YES, medication is a source of relief and suffering. YOU BET YOUR ASS IT IS!!!! and when the shit hits the proverbial fan, and YOUR son is suffering from a pain beknownst, the magnitude, the intensity, to him and only him… let’s see where the shit lands then. let’s see what tune you’re singing when a simple pill administered provides him relief… or would you be so bold as to jerk that opportunity out of the reach of his little hands as tears of angst and pain are opted for by YOU as you parcipitate his horror, his nightmare… what a ghastly thought, even punctuated by the possibility that it is probable in your case, as you have shown your selfish agenda in all to vivid color. one thing you have apparently, in all your wisdom and judgment NOW noticed… is that not ONE of us on medication speaks of a "high"… as not one of us is fortunate enough to experience such a "pleasurable" byproduct of our medication. THAT would be a minor payoff, muh boy… and i DO mean minor. YOUR memory, i’m sure, serves you well. that smacks of a past of benzo abuse that created a "high" for you…. WELLLLLLLLLLLLL, let me tell you something. it does NOT create a high for us, and i can speak for everyone in this group. WHY? we’re WAY too busy depending on that little blue pill for our next breath, to subside our DESPERATE FEAR that is inexplicable, to just give us one more chance to live, while praying to our own personal God to please… please.. just give us one more chance, to PLEASE make this go away and even making promises to this God that we will NEVER have another attack if the gift of one more chance is offered, a promise absurd, and borne of despair. as you have come here to prove, (ineffectively, i might add), that you are in an enlightened arena of panic/anxiety sufferers that have overcome by the grace of what you perceive as a ’superior thought process’… you have proven not only the contradiction of this "superior thinking" as the dichotomy lies within your own words, consistently, but that you are a narcissist of major proportions with the discernment abilities of a fruit fly. you wouldn’t know support from pantyhose. (or maybe i speak from an unenlightened position on that one, who knows)… and support is not always in the form of advice, medication technicalities, but also laughter, humor, chiding, acceptance… acceptance that we may find one another intolerable on a day to day basis and it COULD be due to anxiety, personal issues, (which we put on the table freely, son) or issues that have nothing to do with our behavior towards another here. we convene not so much for solutions, but for cohesion. cohering, and a comfort zone.. one which dictates that we do not have to be onstage for a few minutes of our lives proving we’re "ok" to the nonaccepting masses. yeah, i’m speaking for everyone, which is NOT my right, i will claim all of the above as my OWN … and feel certain that i have touched upon things others feel. ..and i’ll be seein’ YOU in the "men suffering from lorena bobbit syndrome support" forum, sans a prosthesis, of course, that might make your life a little too easy.. and i’ll be happy to lend you my own balls, as you have none… looks like your ENTIRE 3 PIECE SUITE FELL VICTIM !!!!!! …. and in closing? live it up…. life in your solo arena will serve you well, i’m sure. ~tanya p.s. your attempt at intellect is futile. intellect is not mutually exclusive of sensibility, rationale, and consistency.. just the opposite, in fact. do yourself a favor and do NOT try that again, it does NOT become you.

Response:

It takes alot to offend US here. Sounds like this is not the group for you friend. And benzos don’t make you high. They help with anxiety and PANIC attacks.

Response:

i see they skipped all them vital organs and went due north’n right SKRAIT for yer last vestige of’ah brain cell. that was mighty generous, in retrospect, doncha think? Now, what I did find interesting was your reply. Interestingly, in merely posing an alternative perspective, you had assumed that I was speaking aobut herbs, or oils, or some other external cure. We are the only species that I know of that has direct and immediate control over our experiential existence.

"immediate control"? ROFLMAOOOOOO !!!! "immediate control".. now THERE’s a concept. even if control WAS a possibility, i don’t think you’d have it considerin’ tha option/possibility of sumbody dosin’ ya right quick’n makin’ their own experiment… (it’s called "choice", a_fried) and we excersise tha right to that choice… WELCOME TO AMERICA !!! please take yer seat in tha "i try ta look so enFUCKINlightened but just can’t seem to succeed" corner. happy ta have ya here, yer truly a treasured addition to our country, as ya make us all look like Einstein, by comparison… whad’ah magnanimous gesture ! As to any "failed" attempts, I am curious thoough on what you were expecting ‘them’ to deliver?

this ain’t even my question and i can answer that, it’s rocket science, ::lookin’ at tha room topic in case i missed sumthin:: …and another contribution (as aforementioned) to tha world… yer tha poster child for "true humanitarian" !!!!!!! ~ya guessed it ! ~tanya

Response:

If Im on 100mg Zoloft do I have to take the entire pill at once? It seems as if I have a sharp increase in anxiety issues about 12-14 hours after taking the drug. Does anyone out there split their dose up twice a day, does it work? Also I dont understand if zoloft takes 6 weeks to work and stays in your system for so long how can I feel immediate results (hours)? Is it all in my head?

Response:

Ask your Doctor!!!!!!

Response:

I’m on 100mg of Zoloft and take it at night. Sometimes I’ll break it in half since I know the lower the dosage the better. I find that the 100mg gives me more anxiety so that’s usually when I’ll go a few days of 50mg….

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If Im on 100mg Zoloft do I have to take the entire pill at once? It seems as if I have a sharp increase in anxiety issues about 12-14 hours after taking the drug. Does anyone out there split their dose up twice a day, does it work? Also I dont understand if zoloft takes 6 weeks to work and stays in your system for so long how can I feel immediate results (hours)? Is it all in my head? I was on Zoloft for a number of years up until the beginning of 2003. I used to take 100mg a day most of the time. However, sometimes during the winter I would start to feel a little worse, so I would take 1 1/2, I would just break the Zoloft. Other times, especially late spring/summer I would be feeling pretty well so I would only take 1/2 a day. Ask your doctor if he/she thinks it would be OK to take a lower amount of Zoloft. How long have you been taking it? Some SSRI’s can make you feel a little worse for a week or two until as your body adjusts. An there is the possibility that Zoloft may not be right for you. For example, I just started taking Paxil CR today. I won’t be taking it again tomorrow. I just didn’t feel right. I had tried Paxil a few years ago and only used it for two day and after today, I now remember why I stopped : ) Don’t hesitate to talk to your doc about it, that is what they are there for. Best, JimD

Response:

As a group, it seems everyone here is pretty dedicated to prescription medication as a source of relief for suffering. Sorry for any offence, but I found the name of this group mislead. alt.support.medsanddocs is more the case. Nothing like a good benzo for a good high…if memory serves.

Response:

As a group, it seems everyone here is pretty dedicated to prescription medication as a source of relief for suffering.

Actually I find folks in this group the most med-resistant and med-phobic of them all. Prescription meds are stronger and work much more effectively than lavendar oils and tea leaves. The natural route is for your garden variety anxiety. I tried the natural route (needles, herbs, and therapy) for three months and wasted time and money and got my condition worsened. The naturopaths promise healing and "no side effects," but they failed to deliver and, ironically, referred me to the PDocs. The PDocs don’t make promises about anything being free of side effects. Currently they are delivering far more for these folks and for me.

Response:

For many medication is and may remain necessary. Anxiety disorders are most often biological/genetic as well as psychological (*learned behaviour*). CBT is the first choice therapy and taking meds without CBT is not the best treatment. Philip

Response:

We disagree, Marie. Each post that I have opened entails some dilemma over the ingestion of some chemical. Frankly, I had enough of the chemicals that will ultimately harm my liver, or my kidneys, or some other necessary system for life. The treatments are worse than the ailments in my view. Now, what I did find interesting was your reply. Interestingly, in merely posing an alternative perspective, you had assumed that I was speaking aobut herbs, or oils, or some other external cure. We are the only species that I know of that has direct and immediate control over our experiential existence. As to any "failed" attempts, I am curious thoough on what you were expecting ‘them’ to deliver?

Response:

amen. perhaps you ARE in the wrong forum, as we are all REAL anxiety/panic sufferers. yes… medication is a viable and available alternative to the impact of…… a sudden meteoric rise in heartbeat, off the charts, stroke level blood pressure, KNOWING your heart is beating so hard that you are dying at any moment, the humiliation and embarrassment that goes along with "knowing somehow in your head" that this isn’t real, the inability to treat it as "not real", as it’s not possible… ~~THAT knowledge in itself is overwhelming~~ being unable to indulge the coherent awareness/reality of that which we have no control or power over, trying every possible verbosity to explain to others (those of us that are ‘out of the closet’ with our disorder, as THAT is a feat in itself,) the phenomenon manifested and internalized as extremely visible to the world, knowing we cannot IGNORE what is happening in lieu of our intellectual mind set as the current "reality" supercedes this, especially in a public arena, enduring embarrassment of major proportions, having fear as our closest cohort in life, fear of attacks, fear of …including fear that the possibility of having our next prescription denied exists, our "fear" is always by our side, dependable, ever present, persistent if nothing else. to KNOW the world is staring directly at us with judgment as we die die considering the moment of exiting a door from home, for some, a major accomplishment, after 30 years, having missed out on their kid’s first home run, all home runs, the crowning of their daughter as homecoming queen, graduations, family functions, holidays spent alone, enslaving the whole family to the dictation of needs via this disorder, subjecting your children and husband to a life of ‘excuses for mom’s absence’, and the list goes on, to be aware that our goal of "management" is the only thing that separates us from the world in which we dwell and the one possible, to know we are by far not the only victims of this suffering, our friends and family are just as victimized, the burden of guilt …. guilt as we are inflicting our own discomfort on those that love us, a horrific cross to bear, understanding that understanding is not something they do well, and not a thing we can gift them… we don’t understand it ourselves. we are FAR from stupid the creativity we employ to "not be noticed" or even "found out" dictates a creativity, an intelligence level not to be ignored, even an awareness level that is not to be reckoned with. go to the "diabetes support" forum and suggest the participants get the HELL off their meds, pills or insulin. go to the "new mothers in crisis support" forum and suggest they take their 3 month premature baby out of the incubator and out of the hands of … as you so eloquently phrased it "medsanddocs" and of course, remove the oxygen, (nothin’ like’ah good dose of oxygen for a good high). YES, medication is a source of relief and suffering. YOU BET YOUR ASS IT IS!!!! and when the shit hits the proverbial fan, and YOUR son is suffering from a pain beknownst, the magnitude, the intensity, to him and only him… let’s see where the shit lands then. let’s see what tune you’re singing when a simple pill administered provides him relief… or would you be so bold as to jerk that opportunity out of the reach of his little hands as tears of angst and pain are opted for by YOU as you parcipitate his horror, his nightmare… what a ghastly thought, even punctuated by the possibility that it is probable in your case, as you have shown your selfish agenda in all to vivid color. one thing you have apparently, in all your wisdom and judgment NOW noticed… is that not ONE of us on medication speaks of a "high"… as not one of us is fortunate enough to experience such a "pleasurable" byproduct of our medication. THAT would be a minor payoff, muh boy… and i DO mean minor. YOUR memory, i’m sure, serves you well. that smacks of a past of benzo abuse that created a "high" for you…. WELLLLLLLLLLLLL, let me tell you something. it does NOT create a high for us, and i can speak for everyone in this group. WHY? we’re WAY too busy depending on that little blue pill for our next breath, to subside our DESPERATE FEAR that is inexplicable, to just give us one more chance to live, while praying to our own personal God to please… please.. just give us one more chance, to PLEASE make this go away and even making promises to this God that we will NEVER have another attack if the gift of one more chance is offered, a promise absurd, and borne of despair. as you have come here to prove, (ineffectively, i might add), that you are in an enlightened arena of panic/anxiety sufferers that have overcome by the grace of what you perceive as a ’superior thought process’… you have proven not only the contradiction of this "superior thinking" as the dichotomy lies within your own words, consistently, but that you are a narcissist of major proportions with the discernment abilities of a fruit fly. you wouldn’t know support from pantyhose. (or maybe i speak from an unenlightened position on that one, who knows)… and support is not always in the form of advice, medication technicalities, but also laughter, humor, chiding, acceptance… acceptance that we may find one another intolerable on a day to day basis and it COULD be due to anxiety, personal issues, (which we put on the table freely, son) or issues that have nothing to do with our behavior towards another here. we convene not so much for solutions, but for cohesion. cohering, and a comfort zone.. one which dictates that we do not have to be onstage for a few minutes of our lives proving we’re "ok" to the nonaccepting masses. yeah, i’m speaking for everyone, which is NOT my right, i will claim all of the above as my OWN … and feel certain that i have touched upon things others feel. ..and i’ll be seein’ YOU in the "men suffering from lorena bobbit syndrome support" forum, sans a prosthesis, of course, that might make your life a little too easy.. and i’ll be happy to lend you my own balls, as you have none… looks like your ENTIRE 3 PIECE SUITE FELL VICTIM !!!!!! …. and in closing? live it up…. life in your solo arena will serve you well, i’m sure. ~tanya p.s. your attempt at intellect is futile. intellect is not mutually exclusive of sensibility, rationale, and consistency.. just the opposite, in fact. do yourself a favor and do NOT try that again, it does NOT become you.

Response:

Author: admin on
Category: Zoloft Dose
Tags: Zoloft Dose

Prescription Medication Knowledge Base » Effexor Xr 150 » Therapist #1, second interview

Therapist #1, second interview

Question:

I saw the first therapist again, because the first session was mostly a case history; this year’s been really incredible. She said I pretty much had GAD and some depression, which is what I thought. We had a CBT session on my topmost issue, which is giving up our place in town and having to move to my wife’s place out in the country. She showed me I was catastrophizing there and had me look at alternatives. I did see that CBT is no deep dark mystery; it’s what I used to call "brainstorming": toss out alternatives with someone else and try a few. I think I could work with her. I’ll admit, I couldn’t have heard from someone at the public clinic about the moving issue, since I was afraid they wouldn’t be sympathetic; many of their clients are one step from being out on the street! So now I feel better about the public clinic. I also know that I have an alternative. Since I’m getting my meds (Effexor XR, 150 mg; Depakote 1000 mg) at the clinic, it would be better to have them coordinate. I’ll give it all more thought. Dennis — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Hi, Dennis, Sounds like the therapy appointment went well. Please keep us updated on how it is going… smiles, Elise

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I saw the first therapist again, because the first session was mostly a case history; this year’s been really incredible. She said I pretty much had GAD and some depression, which is what I thought. We had a CBT session on my topmost issue, which is giving up our place in town and having to move to my wife’s place out in the country. She showed me I was catastrophizing there and had me look at alternatives. I did see that CBT is no deep dark mystery; it’s what I used to call "brainstorming": toss out alternatives with someone else and try a few. I think I could work with her. I’ll admit, I couldn’t have heard from someone at the public clinic about the moving issue, since I was afraid they wouldn’t be sympathetic; many of their clients are one step from being out on the street! So now I feel better about the public clinic. I also know that I have an alternative. Since I’m getting my meds (Effexor XR, 150 mg; Depakote 1000 mg) at the clinic, it would be better to have them coordinate. I’ll give it all more thought. Dennis — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

– The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Author: admin on
Category: Effexor Xr 150
Tags: Effexor Xr 150

Prescription Medication Knowledge Base » Zoloft Dose » normal Zoloft dose

normal Zoloft dose

Question:

So how did it go Elise ? Did you pdoc make any changes in your meds ? Curiously, Tony

Response:

Hi, Tony, Well I made it through my appt. During the course of being in the waiting room an irate guy came in hollering about this, that and everything else. He did let us all know he was bi-polar, yada, yada, yada…but this kind of stuff really raises my anxiety. I am always afraid someone will pull a gun out or some other kind of violence. So my anxiety did raise a little. Talked with the pdoc and I am going to increase the Zoloft 12.5 for the next 2 weeks and then up another 12.5 (total 75 mgs). Then I see him in 6 weeks or so. Of course, we went through the "you need to get into therapy" for which I said "Remember, I don’t drive more than 3 miles…" – lol!!! I told him I was going to be going away Memorial Day and probably flying and that I had some anxiety about this. And we talked about how Zoloft is good for anxiety and agoraphobia and that I was at a minimal dose and increasing it could help. So, keeping my fingers crossed. Thanks for asking, Tony!!! smiles, Elise

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So how did it go Elise ? Did you pdoc make any changes in your meds ? Curiously, Tony

Response:

Hi, Tony, I don’t think I was ever intended to be able to relax. Some things I do relax me but anxiety is always in the background – just waiting to escalate. It would be nice to just wake up and not have to think about how the day is going to be based upon anxiety…Ugh! Speaking of football, one time (NO not at band camp…hehe) we were watching the Browns vs Steelers and the game got so anxiety producing (a real nail biter) that I had to leave the room… smiles, Elise

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : I think I was taking 1 mg 2 times a day. It never got that feeling that the : med had "kicked in" like the quick relief you get with Xanax. Zoloft has : improved my outlook on life. I don’t sleep all of the time any more and : have a little more motivation. Though there is still room for improvement. : My pdoc knows about my driving and just suggests therapy. He knows how I : feel about the fact that it’s not in my driving radius and I got tired of : having someone go with me every week. It really is an imposition and I just : despise being so needy on my family for this. : Do you know the feeling of relief you get when you deep breath and you feel : less tense, well I have a very difficult time getting to that state. I have : never been able to "float" when I have done relaxation tapes. Plain and : simple I just can’t relax – always tense. : smiles, : Elise : It sounds like the Clonazepam wasn’t "right" for you. I think some of us are just hard-wired to be anxious and anticipatory. There are advantages to this, especially in sports where your mind is always thinking and seeing the play develop in your mind before it happens. Being on edge also tends to make one very quick. That’s me : ) I have slowed down quite and lost alot of my anxiousness with age but I still have enough where it isn’t healthy in RL. Can you relax in a quiet room ? Just close your eyes and repeat the word one or love or something with one syllable with every outgoing breath. I haven’t done this in a while but it definitely works for me. I can relax when I lose "myself" in listening to music, playing music, playing sports, watching a movie, watching Seinfeld, etc. I think the times I can’t relax may be partly caused by distorted thinking and partly from the way I am wired. I’m getting very, very sleepy. It’s late : ) Hope your pdoc appointment goes well. Take it easy Elise, Tony

Response:

: I think I was taking 1 mg 2 times a day. It never got that feeling that the : med had "kicked in" like the quick relief you get with Xanax. Zoloft has : improved my outlook on life. I don’t sleep all of the time any more and : have a little more motivation. Though there is still room for improvement. : My pdoc knows about my driving and just suggests therapy. He knows how I : feel about the fact that it’s not in my driving radius and I got tired of : having someone go with me every week. It really is an imposition and I just : despise being so needy on my family for this. : Do you know the feeling of relief you get when you deep breath and you feel : less tense, well I have a very difficult time getting to that state. I have : never been able to "float" when I have done relaxation tapes. Plain and : simple I just can’t relax – always tense. : smiles, : Elise : It sounds like the Clonazepam wasn’t "right" for you. I think some of us are just hard-wired to be anxious and anticipatory. There are advantages to this, especially in sports where your mind is always thinking and seeing the play develop in your mind before it happens. Being on edge also tends to make one very quick. That’s me : ) I have slowed down quite and lost alot of my anxiousness with age but I still have enough where it isn’t healthy in RL. Can you relax in a quiet room ? Just close your eyes and repeat the word one or love or something with one syllable with every outgoing breath. I haven’t done this in a while but it definitely works for me. I can relax when I lose "myself" in listening to music, playing music, playing sports, watching a movie, watching Seinfeld, etc. I think the times I can’t relax may be partly caused by distorted thinking and partly from the way I am wired. I’m getting very, very sleepy. It’s late : ) Hope your pdoc appointment goes well. Take it easy Elise, Tony

Response:

I think I was taking 1 mg 2 times a day. It never got that feeling that the med had "kicked in" like the quick relief you get with Xanax. Zoloft has improved my outlook on life. I don’t sleep all of the time any more and have a little more motivation. Though there is still room for improvement. My pdoc knows about my driving and just suggests therapy. He knows how I feel about the fact that it’s not in my driving radius and I got tired of having someone go with me every week. It really is an imposition and I just despise being so needy on my family for this. Do you know the feeling of relief you get when you deep breath and you feel less tense, well I have a very difficult time getting to that state. I have never been able to "float" when I have done relaxation tapes. Plain and simple I just can’t relax – always tense. smiles, Elise – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How much Clonazepam were you taking ? I took Xanax for a week to help me relax before I could see a pdoc for the first time. It definitely took away the generalized and anticipatory anxiety. Zoloft tends to improve one’s mood. One way to describe it is the satisfying feeling you have after a good meal. The improvement in mood helps keep you in a positive frame of mind and limits the negative and anticipatory thoughts. This change will clear your mind and give you a clean slate to work on your vocabulary of positive thoughts which in turn will boost your confidence in situations that presently cause you to feel increased anxiety. Just tell your pdoc how you feel about driving and whatever else is bothering you and he will probably increase your Zoloft dosage. Take care, Tony

Response:

I have also been extremely anxious all of my life. Not a fun way to live… I do take Xanax regularly (1 mg per day, if I take more I am too exhausted and sleep all of the time). I did take Clonazepam for a few months but it just didn’t seem to work for me. smiles, Elise

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Elise, You may want to look into taking a long term benzo like Clonazepam. I believe you take Xanax as needed right now. Clonazepam works for me. I have always been overly anxious and the Clonazepam helps me to relax so I can function in RL without getting worn out every day. Tony

Response:

: Hi, Tony, : Wise decision. No sense attempting a med change when you are under stress. : I hope things work out for you with the new position at work – sometimes you : just got keep on pushing… : smiles, : Elise I am definitely persistent. I’ll move a mountain stone by stone if it matters. Thanks, Tony

Response:

: I have also been extremely anxious all of my life. Not a fun way to live… : I do take Xanax regularly (1 mg per day, if I take more I am too exhausted : and sleep all of the time). I did take Clonazepam for a few months but it : just didn’t seem to work for me. : smiles, : Elise How much Clonazepam were you taking ? I took Xanax for a week to help me relax before I could see a pdoc for the first time. It definitely took away the generalized and anticipatory anxiety. Zoloft tends to improve one’s mood. One way to describe it is the satisfying feeling you have after a good meal. The improvement in mood helps keep you in a positive frame of mind and limits the negative and anticipatory thoughts. This change will clear your mind and give you a clean slate to work on your vocabulary of positive thoughts which in turn will boost your confidence in situations that presently cause you to feel increased anxiety. Just tell your pdoc how you feel about driving and whatever else is bothering you and he will probably increase your Zoloft dosage. Take care, Tony

Response:

Hi, Tony, Wise decision. No sense attempting a med change when you are under stress. I hope things work out for you with the new position at work – sometimes you just got keep on pushing… smiles, Elise

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : Hi, Tony, : I am just still experiencing anxiety – sometimes slight and other times high : anxiety. I am hoping a med increase will help to get rid of some of this : anxiety (and tenseness) so I can try to do more exposure due to the agor. : What a darn vicious cycle this all is… : Are you still doing well with lowering the Clonazepam? : smiles, : Elise Hi Elise, I did that for a week and decided that now is not the right time for change. I’m still pushing hard for a change in position at work and it can be stressful dealing with management. They always talk about people being their most important resource but when it comes time to "walk the talk" they tend to be non-existent. So I’m still pushing. I push until I get what I want : ) Thanks, Tony

Response:

Elise, You may want to look into taking a long term benzo like Clonazepam. I believe you take Xanax as needed right now. Clonazepam works for me. I have always been overly anxious and the Clonazepam helps me to relax so I can function in RL without getting worn out every day. Tony

Response:

: Hi, Tony, : I am just still experiencing anxiety – sometimes slight and other times high : anxiety. I am hoping a med increase will help to get rid of some of this : anxiety (and tenseness) so I can try to do more exposure due to the agor. : What a darn vicious cycle this all is… : Are you still doing well with lowering the Clonazepam? : smiles, : Elise Hi Elise, I did that for a week and decided that now is not the right time for change. I’m still pushing hard for a change in position at work and it can be stressful dealing with management. They always talk about people being their most important resource but when it comes time to "walk the talk" they tend to be non-existent. So I’m still pushing. I push until I get what I want : ) Thanks, Tony

Response:

Hi, Tony, I am just still experiencing anxiety – sometimes slight and other times high anxiety. I am hoping a med increase will help to get rid of some of this anxiety (and tenseness) so I can try to do more exposure due to the agor. What a darn vicious cycle this all is… Are you still doing well with lowering the Clonazepam? smiles, Elise

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : Hi, all, : Tomorrow I go to my pdoc. It’s been almost 3 weeks since I started the 50 : mg dose. Am I right that this is a minimal dose? Should I see about an : increase? Still having agor feelings and don’t like to be places alone… : smiles, : Elise : Hi Elise, I take 100 mg Zoloft every day. I have tried going down to 50 mg but I was feeling depression lurking back into my life so I went back to 100 mg. I have never tried 75 mg which is something I may try in the future. My first pdoc was very aggressive and when I told him I was still having panic attacks at 100 mg, he boosted me up to 200 mg which I stayed on for about one year. The panic attacks did get blocked at 200 mg. I had lots of energy and negative thoughts rarely came up in my head. I did feel "too normal" though. I missed the range of emotions that I used to have and felt like too much like a "normie" : ) Over time I dropped down to 150 mg for several months, then 100 mg, then 50 mg. Each time I changed my dosage I would go through a period of about 2 weeks where I felt "different" during the transition. You may feel a slight increase in anxiety during this transition period. Just keep your seat belt on and know that you’re going to be alright and feel "level" again after a week or two of adjusting to the new dose. It’s worth it when you feel the relief from anxiety and panic attacks at the higher dosage. None of my experiences may apply to you so I think you should let your pdoc know exactly how you are feeling and let the pdoc determine if and how much you should increase your Zoloft dosage. If I were your pdoc I would boost your dosage up to 75 mg for a month or two and see how that works. Dr. Tony

Response:

Hi, Liz, Thanks for the good wishes. I will see what he says tomorrow about increasing the dose… smiles, Elise

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, all, Tomorrow I go to my pdoc. It’s been almost 3 weeks since I started the 50 mg dose. Am I right that this is a minimal dose? Should I see about an increase? Still having agor feelings and don’t like to be places alone… smiles, Elise I do well on 50mg, Elise, but would not mind raising it at all if needed. You can try a higher dose and if it does not seem to help, then try something different. Sending you good wishes for a productive visit tomorrow. Take care, Liz

Response:

Hi, Philip, I agree that I need to do CBT and more exposure for my agor but I am struggling with constant anxiety (sometimes slight anxiety and other times higher anxiety). I am hoping the increase in the med will help get rid of some of this anxiety. smiles, Elise

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, all, Tomorrow I go to my pdoc. It’s been almost 3 weeks since I started the 50 mg dose. Am I right that this is a minimal dose? Should I see about an increase? Still having agor feelings and don’t like to be places alone… smiles, Elise Maybe your Zoloft dose needs upping. IMO agoraphobia (including going to or being in places alone) is best addressed by way of CBT. Philip

Response:

: Hi, all, : Tomorrow I go to my pdoc. It’s been almost 3 weeks since I started the 50 : mg dose. Am I right that this is a minimal dose? Should I see about an : increase? Still having agor feelings and don’t like to be places alone… : smiles, : Elise : : : One alternative is to increase to Zoloft 75 or 100 mg/day. Another is to add : a benzo taken on a regular basis. A two prong attack works alot better for : me. I’m on Zoloft 100 mg/day and Konopin 3 mg/day. : : Chip : I’ve had success at 100 mg Zoloft and 2 mg Clonazepam for many years. Tony

Response:

: Hi, all, : Tomorrow I go to my pdoc. It’s been almost 3 weeks since I started the 50 : mg dose. Am I right that this is a minimal dose? Should I see about an : increase? Still having agor feelings and don’t like to be places alone… : smiles, : Elise : Hi Elise, I take 100 mg Zoloft every day. I have tried going down to 50 mg but I was feeling depression lurking back into my life so I went back to 100 mg. I have never tried 75 mg which is something I may try in the future. My first pdoc was very aggressive and when I told him I was still having panic attacks at 100 mg, he boosted me up to 200 mg which I stayed on for about one year. The panic attacks did get blocked at 200 mg. I had lots of energy and negative thoughts rarely came up in my head. I did feel "too normal" though. I missed the range of emotions that I used to have and felt like too much like a "normie" : ) Over time I dropped down to 150 mg for several months, then 100 mg, then 50 mg. Each time I changed my dosage I would go through a period of about 2 weeks where I felt "different" during the transition. You may feel a slight increase in anxiety during this transition period. Just keep your seat belt on and know that you’re going to be alright and feel "level" again after a week or two of adjusting to the new dose. It’s worth it when you feel the relief from anxiety and panic attacks at the higher dosage. None of my experiences may apply to you so I think you should let your pdoc know exactly how you are feeling and let the pdoc determine if and how much you should increase your Zoloft dosage. If I were your pdoc I would boost your dosage up to 75 mg for a month or two and see how that works. Dr. Tony

Response:

Hi, all, Tomorrow I go to my pdoc. It’s been almost 3 weeks since I started the 50 mg dose. Am I right that this is a minimal dose? Should I see about an increase? Still having agor feelings and don’t like to be places alone… smiles, Elise

Maybe your Zoloft dose needs upping. IMO agoraphobia (including going to or being in places alone) is best addressed by way of CBT. Philip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

I do well on 50mg, Elise, but would not mind raising it at all if needed. You can try a higher dose and if it does not seem to help, then try something different. Sending you good wishes for a productive visit tomorrow. Take care, Liz

Response:

Hi, Les, the Zoloft is doing okay for now. I probably need an increase. I am still having a lot of agor feelings and those just scare me to death. smiles, Elise

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Good luck tomorrow! 50mg is a pretty low dose. I think maybe i started at 50, either that or 25. I am taking zoloft still and am at 250mg. it has worked pretty well for me. i am also on lots of other meds though. how is it working for ya? les. Hi, all, Tomorrow I go to my pdoc. It’s been almost 3 weeks since I started the 50 mg dose. Am I right that this is a minimal dose? Should I see about an increase? Still having agor feelings and don’t like to be places alone… smiles, Elise

Response:

Good luck tomorrow! 50mg is a pretty low dose. I think maybe i started at 50, either that or 25. I am taking zoloft still and am at 250mg. it has worked pretty well for me. i am also on lots of other meds though. how is it working for ya? les.

Response:

One alternative is to increase to Zoloft 75 or 100 mg/day. Another is to add a benzo taken on a regular basis. A two prong attack works alot better for me. I’m on Zoloft 100 mg/day and Konopin 3 mg/day. Chip

Response:

Hi Elise, I was on the 50mg amount for 4 weeks after weening on at 25mg for 6 weeks, I felt better but just not right yet, so I talk to my doc about this and we increased to 100mg , thats where I am now and doing very well. Sometimes that little kick more of zoloft will make a difference. I would ask the doctor to increase yours, I think you will benefit more from it. Good luck Sandy

Response:

i m presently taking 100 mgs/day of zoloft, but the doc said that if need b, i can increase that but, i want off of it, not 2 take more am also taking 40 mgs of buspar and .5 mg of ativan u really have 2 watch with the zoloft bcuz 1 of the side effects is sexual that is y i want off of it, or at least reduce it, the higher the dose, the worse the side effects hope this might have helped

Response:

Elise wrote…… Tomorrow I go to my pdoc. It’s been almost 3 weeks since I started the 50 mg dose. Am I right that this is a minimal dose? Should I see about an increase? Still having agor feelings and don’t like to be places alone… smiles, Elise

Dear Elise, 50mgs can be a therapeutic dose for "some" and not enough for others, it is a low dose in general. Being you have invested so much time into slowly weaning on Zoloft, and you don`t seem to be happy where you are at this point, it can`t hurt to increase your dose. Take care and good luck! Jackie ~*~Flowers have spoken to me more than I can tell in written words. They are the hieroglyphics of angels, loved by all men for the beauty of the character, though few can decypher even fragments of their meaning…..

Response:

Author: admin on
Category: Zoloft Dose
Tags: Zoloft Dose

Prescription Medication Knowledge Base » Zoloft Effexor » Serafem

Serafem

Question:

Yesterday I caught a story on NPR where a woman confessed that her PMDD was ruining here family life and that the Prozac=Serafem drug helped her cope and live a normal life. Has anyone else tried this treatment? I think if it’s true it could save my marriage from the constant monthly depression and fighting that’s becoming the norm in my home. Here’s a link to listen to the NPR report that is more about the marketing of Serafem but still informative: http://www.npr.org/ramfiles/atc/20010423.atc.12.rmm JaKe

Response:

Serafim (fluoxetine HCL) is very effective for this purpose. It works quickly, unlike the way it works for depression. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -JaKe wrote:

Yesterday I caught a story on NPR where a woman confessed that her PMDD was ruining here family life and that the Prozac=Serafem drug helped her cope and live a normal life. Has anyone else tried this treatment? I think if it’s true it could save my marriage from the constant monthly depression and fighting that’s becoming the norm in my home. Here’s a link to listen to the NPR report that is more about the marketing of Serafem but still informative: http://www.npr.org/ramfiles/atc/20010423.atc.12.rmm JaKe

Response:

On Tue, 24 Apr 2001 19:33:02 GMT, Peter Ross <pr…@att.net

wrote: Serafim (fluoxetine HCL) is very effective for this purpose. It works quickly, unlike the way it works for depression.

OTOH, it diminishes sex drive, and there are other possible approaches, notably hormone balancing, that could be taken first. Just a thought… — Empress "The vote means nothing to women. We should be armed." -Edna O’Brien

Response:

"Empress of the Known Universe" <empresso…@yahoo.com

wrote in message

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On Tue, 24 Apr 2001 19:33:02 GMT, Peter Ross <pr…@att.net wrote: Serafim (fluoxetine HCL) is very effective for this purpose. It works quickly, unlike the way it works for depression. OTOH, it diminishes sex drive, and there are other possible approaches, notably hormone balancing, that could be taken first. Just a thought… — Empress

Regulating the hormones is another approach to managing perimenstrual problems. Taking calcium supplements and vitamin B6 may also have some value. Different drugs can affect people in unique ways so I try not to discount a side effect as impossible, however, decreased sex drive is not the usual form of "sexual dysfunction" that people refer to with SSRI’s like Prozac/Sarafem. Usually the drive is intact but the ability to reach orgasm is impaired in 30-50% of women. Whether it is preferable to take antidepressants, other meds, hormones, or no medications is a personal decision. I find most women who are not on oral contraceptives already prefer to not take them. — CBI, MD

Response:

"Empress of the Known Universe" <empresso…@yahoo.com

wrote in message

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On Tue, 24 Apr 2001 23:12:58 -0400, "CBI" <replytothegr…@nospam.spamnet wrote: Usually the drive is intact but the ability to reach orgasm is impaired in 30-50% of women. Hmm. I think I’d rather just not have a drive, thank you.

Yeah, but the guys kind of like it (not to mention their partners).

Response:

On Tue, 24 Apr 2001 17:55:58 GMT, JaKe <jkdrum…@yahoo.com

wrote: Yesterday I caught a story on NPR where a woman confessed that her PMDD was ruining here family life and that the Prozac=Serafem drug helped her cope and live a normal life. Has anyone else tried this treatment? I think if it’s true it could save my marriage from the constant monthly depression and fighting that’s becoming the norm in my home. Here’s a link to listen to the NPR report that is more about the marketing of Serafem but still informative: http://www.npr.org/ramfiles/atc/20010423.atc.12.rmm JaKe

Does that mean everything is peachy-keen for three weeks and then you descend into hell for a week? I don’t know … sounds too simple to me. I’d talk with qualified medical doctors about possible approaches rather than asking them to prescribe something just because you heard about it in a news report or a commercial. Perhaps she has other more treatable medical problems … thyroid problems mimic depression so I’ve read … so can out of whack hormones. FloridaNB

Response:

What you say is exactly right, and is THE biggest problem in treating depression. As much as people who have never had depression like to think they know what it’s like, they plain and simply DON’T. There is NO scientific proof as to the actual cause of depression, there are plenty of theories, but no actual tests that can be done. That’s why depression is such a hit and miss illness, and why some people think you should "just get over it". I’ve suffered from it for a number of years, and luckily Zoloft has really helped me out. As for the sexual side effects, my wife is quite happy with them (premature ejaculation? Ha!). They don’t cause a decrease in sexual drive, just delayed orgasm, DEPRESSION causes a decrease in sexual drive. Just my two cents PS – whatever happended to Oceanmomma, and Momalot ??? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -floridaNB wrote:

On Tue, 24 Apr 2001 17:55:58 GMT, JaKe <jkdrum…@yahoo.com wrote: Yesterday I caught a story on NPR where a woman confessed that her PMDD was ruining here family life and that the Prozac=Serafem drug helped her cope and live a normal life. Has anyone else tried this treatment? I think if it’s true it could save my marriage from the constant monthly depression and fighting that’s becoming the norm in my home. Here’s a link to listen to the NPR report that is more about the marketing of Serafem but still informative: http://www.npr.org/ramfiles/atc/20010423.atc.12.rmm JaKe Does that mean everything is peachy-keen for three weeks and then you descend into hell for a week? I don’t know … sounds too simple to me. I’d talk with qualified medical doctors about possible approaches rather than asking them to prescribe something just because you heard about it in a news report or a commercial. Perhaps she has other more treatable medical problems … thyroid problems mimic depression so I’ve read … so can out of whack hormones. FloridaNB

Response:

On Wed, 25 Apr 2001 15:48:41 GMT, floridanew…@hotmail.com (floridaNB) wrote:

Does that mean everything is peachy-keen for three weeks and then you descend into hell for a week? I don’t know … sounds too simple to me. I’d talk with qualified medical doctors about possible approaches rather than asking them to prescribe something just because you heard about it in a news report or a commercial. Perhaps she has other more treatable medical problems … thyroid problems mimic depression so I’ve read … so can out of whack hormones.

This is exactly why direct-to-consumer advertising of prescription pharmaceuticals needs to be better regulated, if not completely banned. We do just fine without cigarette commercials on TV.

Response:

All right, enough with the details already! JaKe – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Corolla Guy wrote:

What you say is exactly right, and is THE biggest problem in treating depression. As much as people who have never had depression like to think they know what it’s like, they plain and simply DON’T. There is NO scientific proof as to the actual cause of depression, there are plenty of theories, but no actual tests that can be done. That’s why depression is such a hit and miss illness, and why some people think you should "just get over it". I’ve suffered from it for a number of years, and luckily Zoloft has really helped me out. As for the sexual side effects, my wife is quite happy with them (premature ejaculation? Ha!). They don’t cause a decrease in sexual drive, just delayed orgasm, DEPRESSION causes a decrease in sexual drive. Just my two cents PS – whatever happended to Oceanmomma, and Momalot ??? floridaNB wrote: On Tue, 24 Apr 2001 17:55:58 GMT, JaKe <jkdrum…@yahoo.com wrote: Yesterday I caught a story on NPR where a woman confessed that her PMDD was ruining here family life and that the Prozac=Serafem drug helped her cope and live a normal life. Has anyone else tried this treatment? I think if it’s true it could save my marriage from the constant monthly depression and fighting that’s becoming the norm in my home. Here’s a link to listen to the NPR report that is more about the marketing of Serafem but still informative: http://www.npr.org/ramfiles/atc/20010423.atc.12.rmm JaKe Does that mean everything is peachy-keen for three weeks and then you descend into hell for a week? I don’t know … sounds too simple to me. I’d talk with qualified medical doctors about possible approaches rather than asking them to prescribe something just because you heard about it in a news report or a commercial. Perhaps she has other more treatable medical problems … thyroid problems mimic depression so I’ve read … so can out of whack hormones. FloridaNB

Response:

Corolla Guy <james_ha…@excite.com

wrote:

: What you say is exactly right, and is THE biggest problem in treating : depression. As much as people who have never had depression like to : think they know what it’s like, they plain and simply DON’T. There is NO : scientific proof as to the actual cause of depression, there are plenty : of theories, but no actual tests that can be done. That’s why depression : is such a hit and miss illness, and why some people think you should : "just get over it". I’ve suffered from it for a number of years, and : luckily Zoloft has really helped me out. As for the sexual side effects, : my wife is quite happy with them (premature ejaculation? Ha!). They : don’t cause a decrease in sexual drive, just delayed orgasm, DEPRESSION : causes a decrease in sexual drive. Just a quick question: okay, so the climanx is delayed. Is it weaker? I find mine is. Sort of descends into "Forty-five minutes, for this?" *gak!* Emma — "Love looks not with the eyes, but with the mind; And therefore is wing’d Cupid painted blind." (A Midsummer Night’s Dream,I,i)

Response:

misscee <miss…@my-dejanews.com

wrote:

: Thanks for the link. I have been taking Prozac for about a year. My : opinion is that people should go on a powerful drug like prozac because : emotionally they have reached rock bottom, not to improve their : marriage. : Are you asking this question because you want to get your wife on : antidepressents? Be careful what you ask for – they can affect your sex : drive and I have heard all kinds of horror stories about these drugs. That is a very difficult dilemma to figure out. Maybe he loves his wife more than he loves his sex life. (Now that’s one rare devoted man!) ;

ECV — "Love looks not with the eyes, but with the mind; And therefore is wing’d Cupid painted blind." (A Midsummer Night’s Dream,I,i)

Response:

Empress of the Known Universe <empresso…@yahoo.com

wrote:

: On Tue, 24 Apr 2001 19:33:02 GMT, Peter Ross <pr…@att.net

wrote:

:

Serafim (fluoxetine HCL) is very effective for this purpose. It works

:

quickly, unlike the way it works for depression.

: OTOH, it diminishes sex drive, and there are other possible : approaches, notably hormone balancing, that could be taken first. : Just a thought… : — : Empress I found it made me more frisky. But it took away the potential of orgasm. (Now doesn’t *that* just bite!) Emma — "Love looks not with the eyes, but with the mind; And therefore is wing’d Cupid painted blind." (A Midsummer Night’s Dream,I,i)

Response:

All Re-Uptake Inhibitors (prozac, zoloft, effexor, etc) have the probability of diminishing sex drive or causing/increasing anorgasmia (unable to have orgasms) The one specifically geared to have the least effect on sex drive/orgasms is Wellbutrin (same drug in the quit smoking pill). However, Wellbutrin is sometimes less effective than the others. ::shrug:: I’d rather be alive & have a lower sex drive. For me, my mental illness is biochemical & deadly (manic depression). My Tuppence, Autum – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -On Tue, 24 Apr 2001 17:55:58 GMT, JaKe <jkdrum…@yahoo.com

wrote: Yesterday I caught a story on NPR where a woman confessed that her PMDD was ruining here family life and that the Prozac=Serafem drug helped her cope and live a normal life. Has anyone else tried this treatment? I think if it’s true it could save my marriage from the constant monthly depression and fighting that’s becoming the norm in my home. Here’s a link to listen to the NPR report that is more about the marketing of Serafem but still informative: http://www.npr.org/ramfiles/atc/20010423.atc.12.rmm JaKe

Response:

I cannot say this enough, AVOID WELLBUTRIN AT ALL COSTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AVOID WELLBUTRIN AT ALL COSTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AVOID WELLBUTRIN AT ALL COSTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AVOID WELLBUTRIN AT ALL COSTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AVOID WELLBUTRIN AT ALL COSTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am a member of a family support group for family members who care for others with Mental Illness. Almost 1/5th of our membership has this basically same story: Their ‘consumer’ was mis-diagnosed as manic/depressive or bipolar. Given moderate to large doses of zoloft and/or depakote. To quite smoking, they started taking wellbutrin. The chemical combination was an automatic trigger (within literally one to two doses) of full extreme psychotic episodes. While these people were actually schizoprenic or schizoaffective, and were mis-diagnosed, keep in mind that the average schizoid sufferer is mis-diagnosed 3 times, and isn’t properly classified or treated for the first 8-10 years following onset of symptomatic behavior. Wellbutrin is like cyanide to schizophrenics – not physically fatal, by psychiatrically damaging. I don’t know if any formal studies have been done, but I have heard this about 5 times in 4 weeks. People who were responding to treatment, or only slightly symptomatic, got prodromal after 1 dose, and fully (multi-week) psychotic by the second or third dose of wellbutrin. AVOID WELLBUTRIN AT ALL COSTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AVOID WELLBUTRIN AT ALL COSTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AVOID WELLBUTRIN AT ALL COSTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! RichP "Autum" <gol…@nospam.hotmail.com

wrote in message

news:3aedb0d2.14618676@news.qwest.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

All Re-Uptake Inhibitors (prozac, zoloft, effexor, etc) have the probability of diminishing sex drive or causing/increasing anorgasmia (unable to have orgasms) The one specifically geared to have the least effect on sex drive/orgasms is Wellbutrin (same drug in the quit smoking pill). However, Wellbutrin is sometimes less effective than the others. ::shrug:: I’d rather be alive & have a lower sex drive. For me, my mental illness is biochemical & deadly (manic depression). My Tuppence, Autum On Tue, 24 Apr 2001 17:55:58 GMT, JaKe <jkdrum…@yahoo.com wrote: Yesterday I caught a story on NPR where a woman confessed that her PMDD was ruining here family life and that the Prozac=Serafem drug helped her cope and live a normal life. Has anyone else tried this treatment? I think if it’s true it could save my marriage from the constant monthly depression and fighting that’s becoming the norm in my home. Here’s a link to listen to the NPR report that is more about the marketing of Serafem but still informative: http://www.npr.org/ramfiles/atc/20010423.atc.12.rmm JaKe

Response:

On Wed, 02 May 2001 04:32:53 GMT, "RichP" <ri…@ilnk.com

wrote: I cannot say this enough, AVOID WELLBUTRIN AT ALL COSTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AVOID WELLBUTRIN AT ALL COSTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AVOID WELLBUTRIN AT ALL COSTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AVOID WELLBUTRIN AT ALL COSTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AVOID WELLBUTRIN AT ALL COSTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

<snip

Their ‘consumer’ was mis-diagnosed as manic/depressive or bipolar. Given moderate to large doses of zoloft and/or depakote. To quite smoking, they started taking wellbutrin. The chemical combination was an automatic trigger (within literally one to two doses) of full extreme psychotic episodes.

Rich, while your sentiments are appreciated, read your own words. These people were adding an SSNRI (selective seretonin and norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor) to Zoloft which is either an SSRI or SSNRI itself. It is BAD to COMBINE the medications. ESPECIALLY if you’re manic depressive, one of the symptoms of which is psychotic episodes while manic. It is made VERY clear to doctors that if a manic-depressive gets too high of dosages of antidepressant, that it will trigger manic states. The higher the dosages, the worse the mania. Taken REASONABLY, however, antidepressants such as Zoloft, Paxil, Effexor, and Wellbutrin (yes, even Wellbutrin, which is basically the same thing as Effexor but not quite so strong & just a slightly different tweak to the Seretonin/Norepinephrine levels) are completely effective, expecially when taken in combination with anti-convulsants that provide an anti-manic effect, such as Depakote and Tegretol. Make sure you know what you’re talking about next time before trying to scare a whole bunch of people away from a necessary treatment regimen. Thank you for being concerned, however. The thought is appreciated. Autum

Response:

Author: admin on
Category: Zoloft Effexor
Tags: Zoloft Effexor

Prescription Medication Knowledge Base » Zoloft Effexor » i am finally getting some help!!

i am finally getting some help!!

Question:

That is so excellent, every step in the right direction is a huge step forward! ok…went to see my ob/gyn yesterday for a checkup…and i finally broke down and told him i was suffering with depression…i was so embarrassed…started crying and everything…but he gave me some sample of this drug called Effexor…(spelled right?) i haven’t started taking it yet, guess i’m a little nervous of the side effects, if it has any. and he also gave me a couple of 800 numbers to call to see about therapy…too nervous to call them yet. but just wanted everyone to know, i’m on my way to getting "there" hopefully will be "happy" again… Toni

– "Anything is hard to find, when you will not open your eyes."

Response:

Effexor XR was a good med for me. We’re going to try Zoloft. Effexor XR was fine but I still had some deep depressions. G

Response:

Good to see you working in the solution. Now if I could just KEEP my head out of the problem more often. G

Response:

Good for you, Toni! I’ve been through therapy too, and I know you will find it worth it. Howard

Response:

ok…went to see my ob/gyn yesterday for a checkup…and i finally broke down and told him i was suffering with depression…i was so embarrassed…started crying and everything…but he gave me some sample of this drug called Effexor…(spelled right?) i haven’t started taking it yet, guess i’m a little nervous of the side effects, if it has any. and he also gave me a couple of 800 numbers to call to see about therapy…too nervous to call them yet. but just wanted everyone to know, i’m on my way to getting "there" hopefully will be "happy" again… Toni

Response:

Author: admin on
Category: Zoloft Effexor
Tags: Zoloft Effexor

Prescription Medication Knowledge Base » Effexor Xr 150 » New on Neurontin, help!

New on Neurontin, help!

Question:

Twice a day won’t work with Neurontin unless you are worried about seizures. It wears off! If you can’t do at least 3x a day I am afraid you may be wasting your money. On 4x a day maybe you could take less. I don’t think Wellbutrin is the AD for you. I suggest something in the Celexa line, or if you could use help getting to sleep, Remeron. Just have your pharmacist give me a call. Keith – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Do you think going higher in dosage would help? James suggests taking it every 6 hours would help. I have a hard enough time remembering it twice a day. At work it is chaos at times and remembering to take the medication would be very difficult. So far I see no adverse reactions. I can go higher. It is costing me 300 a month but I would pay 500 or even 1000 dollars a month if I could enjoy life on a daily basis. It took away my high highs… now I am left with really some bad bad lows. But I do cycle out for a few short hours… but mornings are hell. I take the meds at noon and in the evening. That isn’t spaced out right though. Should take the evening dose later but the morning dose wears off. I don’t know if raising the wellbutrin would help. Maybe I need to ask for Lamictal. So tired of this. Life was so much easier years ago.

Response:

Do you think going higher in dosage would help? James suggests taking it every 6 hours would help. I have a hard enough time remembering it twice a day. At work it is chaos at times and remembering to take the medication would be very difficult. So far I see no adverse reactions. I can go higher. It is costing me 300 a month but I would pay 500 or even 1000 dollars a month if I could enjoy life on a daily basis. It took away my high highs… now I am left with really some bad bad lows. But I do cycle out for a few short hours… but mornings are hell. I take the meds at noon and in the evening. That isn’t spaced out right though. Should take the evening dose later but the morning dose wears off. I don’t know if raising the wellbutrin would help. Maybe I need to ask for Lamictal. So tired of this. Life was so much easier years ago. — O ooo Cindy O – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am on 2400mg and still cycle….I just have lower lows and lower highs. I don’t feel clearer in thinking…but compared to lithium..whew! This is MUCH better. Just wish it would help more with the depressions. There appears to be no known therapeutic blood serum level for gabapentin used in bipolar. Each person will need a different amount. You could go as high as your doctor would allow, but money would be a limiting factor.

Response:

There appears to be no known therapeutic blood serum level for gabapentin used in bipolar. Each person will need a different amount. You could go as high as your doctor would allow, but money would be a limiting factor.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 4800mg is considered high, and the therapeutic range seems to span all dosages, at least for bipolar. Greetings everybody, I have rapid cyclings with sometimes mixed states. I never had any manic episode. I never took any mood stabilizer in my life. I’ve been taking antidepressants and anxiolytics for 10 years now with moderate results. And i lost so many jobs… So Neurontin is my first mood stabilizer. I’ve been taking Neurontin (100 mg x 4 per day) for 2 weeks now. I also take Effexor XR 150 mg per day. My mood is better. I’m not anymore angry and the anxiety is almost gone. My concentration is improved too. It’s great. I’m starting again to live after a long nightmare. However, i still have sometimes cyclings even if they are more rare and lower in intensity. What is the therapeutic range of Neurontin? I want to feel fine but to be honest i’m afraid to be *zombified* by a too much high dose of Neurontin. Suggestions? Thanks in advance. Eric

Eric when I was on this drug, which was way back when it first came out on the market. I was one of the test people for the drug. I took 3600mgs. So higher doseages can be tolerated for this drug. I was on it at least 3 different times for different reasons. I was taken off 2 times and put back on it 2 other times to make it a total of 3 times. The other mood stabilizer I was on it with I think was either Depakote or Lithium. I am almost quite sure it was Depakote. Betsy

Response:

I am on 2400mg and still cycle….I just have lower lows and lower highs. I don’t feel clearer in thinking…but compared to lithium..whew! This is MUCH better. Just wish it would help more with the depressions. — O ooo Cindy O – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Neurontin has been extremely helpful to me as an anti-depressant, mood stabilizer for me recently. I am a manic depressive. I’m nearly certain that the therapeutic range is about 400 to 2500 mgs. I am taking 2000mgs or just simply 2gs. By the way, I don’t feel "zombefied". On the contrary I feel very alert and relatively up. Good luck Ephriam Greetings everybody, I have rapid cyclings with sometimes mixed states. I never had any manic episode. I never took any mood stabilizer in my life. I’ve been taking antidepressants and anxiolytics for 10 years now with moderate results. And i lost so many jobs… So Neurontin is my first mood stabilizer. I’ve been taking Neurontin (100 mg x 4 per day) for 2 weeks now. I also take Effexor XR 150 mg per day. My mood is better. I’m not anymore angry and the anxiety is almost gone. My concentration is improved too. It’s great. I’m starting again to live after a long nightmare. However, i still have sometimes cyclings even if they are more rare and lower in intensity. What is the therapeutic range of Neurontin? I want to feel fine but to be honest i’m afraid to be *zombified* by a too much high dose of Neurontin. Suggestions? Thanks in advance. Eric

Response:

Which mood stabizer did you use along with neurontin? — O ooo Cindy O – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Greetings everybody, I have rapid cyclings with sometimes mixed states. I never had any manic episode. I never took any mood stabilizer in my life. I’ve been taking antidepressants and anxiolytics for 10 years now with moderate results. And i lost so many jobs… So Neurontin is my first mood stabilizer. I’ve been taking Neurontin (100 mg x 4 per day) for 2 weeks now. I also take Effexor XR 150 mg per day. My mood is better. I’m not anymore angry and the anxiety is almost gone. My concentration is improved too. It’s great. I’m starting again to live after a long nightmare. However, i still have sometimes cyclings even if they are more rare and lower in intensity. What is the therapeutic range of Neurontin? I want to feel fine but to be honest i’m afraid to be *zombified* by a too much high dose of Neurontin. Suggestions? You can use more than one mood stabilizer. Neurontin should be taken every six hours. A good therapeutic dose for me was 300 mgs 4 x per day until I added another mood stabilizer. Once I had polytherapy I was able to lower my dose of Neurontin to 600 to 900 mgs per day. Good luck to you. Julie Thanks in advance. Eric

Response:

Do i still have to take Neurontin 4 times a day if i increase the dosage from 400 to 600 or even 800 mg? What are the side effects of Neurontin at this dosage? Thanks.

Eric: The Neurontin is excreted every six hours. Eight if you have a slow renal excretion rate. The six hours apart is crucial if it is your only mood stabilizer. Even if you have increased the dosage. I learned that the hard way and ended up ultra rapidly cycling till I joined the ranks of the James Milton Philosophy It had it’s drawbacks, like setting my alarm for three am just to take a pill. I did get used to it and it was effective. I also got tired of it and now take 2 mood stabilizers and only take Neurontin 2x per day. Good Luck! Julie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Eric

Response:

4800mg is considered high, and the therapeutic range seems to span all dosages, at least for bipolar. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Greetings everybody, I have rapid cyclings with sometimes mixed states. I never had any manic episode. I never took any mood stabilizer in my life. I’ve been taking antidepressants and anxiolytics for 10 years now with moderate results. And i lost so many jobs… So Neurontin is my first mood stabilizer. I’ve been taking Neurontin (100 mg x 4 per day) for 2 weeks now. I also take Effexor XR 150 mg per day. My mood is better. I’m not anymore angry and the anxiety is almost gone. My concentration is improved too. It’s great. I’m starting again to live after a long nightmare. However, i still have sometimes cyclings even if they are more rare and lower in intensity. What is the therapeutic range of Neurontin? I want to feel fine but to be honest i’m afraid to be *zombified* by a too much high dose of Neurontin. Suggestions? Thanks in advance. Eric

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Greetings everybody, I have rapid cyclings with sometimes mixed states. I never had any manic episode. I never took any mood stabilizer in my life. I’ve been taking antidepressants and anxiolytics for 10 years now with moderate results. And i lost so many jobs… So Neurontin is my first mood stabilizer. I’ve been taking Neurontin (100 mg x 4 per day) for 2 weeks now. I also take Effexor XR 150 mg per day. My mood is better. I’m not anymore angry and the anxiety is almost gone. My concentration is improved too. It’s great. I’m starting again to live after a long nightmare. However, i still have sometimes cyclings even if they are more rare and lower in intensity. What is the therapeutic range of Neurontin? I want to feel fine but to be honest i’m afraid to be *zombified* by a too much high dose of Neurontin. Suggestions?

You can use more than one mood stabilizer. Neurontin should be taken every six hours. A good therapeutic dose for me was 300 mgs 4 x per day until I added another mood stabilizer. Once I had polytherapy I was able to lower my dose of Neurontin to 600 to 900 mgs per day. Good luck to you. Julie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks in advance. Eric

Response:

Do i still have to take Neurontin 4 times a day if i increase the dosage from 400 to 600 or even 800 mg? What are the side effects of Neurontin at this dosage? Thanks. Eric

Response:

Greetings everybody, I have rapid cyclings with sometimes mixed states. I never had any manic episode. I never took any mood stabilizer in my life. I’ve been taking antidepressants and anxiolytics for 10 years now with moderate results. And i lost so many jobs… So Neurontin is my first mood stabilizer. I’ve been taking Neurontin (100 mg x 4 per day) for 2 weeks now. I also take Effexor XR 150 mg per day. My mood is better. I’m not anymore angry and the anxiety is almost gone. My concentration is improved too. It’s great. I’m starting again to live after a long nightmare. However, i still have sometimes cyclings even if they are more rare and lower in intensity. What is the therapeutic range of Neurontin? I want to feel fine but to be honest i’m afraid to be *zombified* by a too much high dose of Neurontin. Suggestions? Thanks in advance. Eric

Response:

Neurontin has been extremely helpful to me as an anti-depressant, mood stabilizer for me recently. I am a manic depressive. I’m nearly certain that the therapeutic range is about 400 to 2500 mgs. I am taking 2000mgs or just simply 2gs. By the way, I don’t feel "zombefied". On the contrary I feel very alert and relatively up. Good luck Ephriam – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Greetings everybody, I have rapid cyclings with sometimes mixed states. I never had any manic episode. I never took any mood stabilizer in my life. I’ve been taking antidepressants and anxiolytics for 10 years now with moderate results. And i lost so many jobs… So Neurontin is my first mood stabilizer. I’ve been taking Neurontin (100 mg x 4 per day) for 2 weeks now. I also take Effexor XR 150 mg per day. My mood is better. I’m not anymore angry and the anxiety is almost gone. My concentration is improved too. It’s great. I’m starting again to live after a long nightmare. However, i still have sometimes cyclings even if they are more rare and lower in intensity. What is the therapeutic range of Neurontin? I want to feel fine but to be honest i’m afraid to be *zombified* by a too much high dose of Neurontin. Suggestions? Thanks in advance. Eric

Response:

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Prescription Medication Knowledge Base » Discontinue Use Of Zoloft In Lewy Body Caus » Scott Weiser Related Discussions

Scott Weiser Related Discussions

Question:

ENOUGH WITH THE DAMN ACCESS DEBATE THREADS! Living in the UK, I frequently unsubscribe from rec.boats.paddle because there’s too much which isn’t relevant to the UK paddler. When I resubscribe (as I did last month), I’m always delighted when I find that Scott Weiser is still winding up paddlers, especially in the US. Best wishes

What a compliment. Many thanks…. Regards, Scott Weiser ****** "I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend upon my friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" ****** http://www.dimensional.com/~weiser/ Copyright 1998 by Scott Weiser Under the UCC, by the act of transmitting any commercial e-mail advertisment to this address, you are expressly contracting with me in my professional capacity for a consultation on the ad’s effectiveness and you expressly agree to pay to me the sum of $250.00 for each such consultation within 10 days of my report to the original sending address. You further expressly agree that all actions for recovery of fees owed shall be subject solely to the laws of the State of Colorado, which shall have sole jurisdiction.

Response:

ENOUGH WITH THE DAMN ACCESS DEBATE THREADS!

Living in the UK, I frequently unsubscribe from rec.boats.paddle because there’s too much which isn’t relevant to the UK paddler. When I resubscribe (as I did last month), I’m always delighted when I find that Scott Weiser is still winding up paddlers, especially in the US. Best wishes Keith — |/| |_ |_) |_) / / canoeing instead of climbing when I | | |__ | | / __/ realised I could swim but not fly!"

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It’s all well and good to say that you, one individual boater, does no identifiable harm, but this ignores the impacts of scale, and when a hundred, or a thousand, or ten thousand boaters use the area, the cumulative impacts become significant. Just look at the Grand Canyon. yes – and that’s why most public lands that incur use impacts are placed in management plans. These plans seek to find the right balance – though I’ll admit it can be arbitrary – especially when it comes to mulltiple-use determinations. It’s a delicate balance of the two, but remember that preserving to pass stewardship on does *not* necessarily mean passing it to the public who want to use the land for recreation. indeed. the ‘public’ is the government. All land public or private is regulation by Federal, State, and local laws that prevent land-owners from using their land when the impacts of such use affect the public. If you don’t believe this.. try something like a 1000 head feed-lot on your property… or placer mining… or eve condos… none of these will you do without a ‘permit’ and the government decides on behalf of the public if your proposal is ‘in the public interest’. Some folks of late consider these ‘takings’ but underlying ‘public interest’ concept is intact.

This is true, and I’ve never denied the validity of properly constructed land-use law, but *restricting* a property owner’s use to protect the health, welfare and safety of the public is substantially different from *appropriating* his property for the use of the public. But this is true ONLY IF the 100 cattle *do* damage the riverbank. Such impacts are not really comparative in nature. Negative impacts cause by paddlers are not "better", or "less negative" impacts simply because they are caused by a paddler instead of a cow, they stand on their own, and when those impacts are unnecessary to begin with, they are that much more improper. hmmm.. they *are* comparative in terms of impacts… whether it is recreation, farming, mining.. all of these distill down to impacts that can be quantified in terms of water quality, habitat destruction, etc.

Yes, but an unnecessary impact is an unnecessary impact, no matter how small it may be. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Cattle may cause negative impacts, which can be mitigated by proper management practices, but cattle are *necessary* impacts in most cases, because they are what pay the taxes and create the profits that are used to continue to preserve the area. It’s all well and good to say "cattle-free in 2003" or whatever (though this mostly applies to federal lands) but the bills have to get paid somehow. I suppose when paddlers fork over the thousands of dollars a year to pay the taxes and maintain the property, then I’ll consider allowing them to trespass. Until then, their impacts, however slight, are *not necessary* to the preservation of the resource, and therefore they are justifiably banned. "can be mitigated by proper management practices" leaves it up to the landowner whoever that happens to be at a given time. this does not work when money is involved. Many landowners justify the destruction of the land they own for ‘economic benefits’. You are not unilaterally entitled to un-regulated economic activity just because you own the land. Your activity has to be compatible with the ‘public interest’ as there is hardly anything (economic) you can do on your property that won’t ultimately affect the public. There are thousands and thousands of local, state, federal laws that restrict you every which way from Sunday. You may consider recreation not necessary – the public may think otherwise – the same goes for what you think is ‘necessary’. If you public disagrees with you then you may be restricted.

Absolutely correct, but the fact that the government may regulate my activities in the public interest has no nexus to my ability to regulate YOUR activities on my land. As we have seen, even the government recognizes the impacts of recreationalists on public waters and has chosen to regulate them as well. I’m not sure what your point is. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’am also amused by the ’scaring the wildlife’ argument – somewhat because there may be a ‘hint’ of truth for some species but how many species in the last few decades have been not only ’scared’ but just plain wiped-out because the habitat they lived on was used by the landowner for ‘other purposes’? Again, you are comparing apples and oranges. The fact that species and habitat may have been impacted by landowners is a broad generalization and an irrelevant comparison. In my case this is not the case, as is true in many other places, and you cannot claim that your impacts are legitimate merely because other impacts occur. Your impacts stand alone, on their own merits, and you are not excused by the bad behavior of others. Using your logic, you should be able to toss beer cans on the bank, leave rubbish around and cut down trees for firewood just because somebody else does so somewhere else. That’s fallacious logic at best. I follow the consistency argument and agree but behavior is governed by law whether it occurs on private or public property – though different laws may apply depending on the behavior – for instance some usually can be arrested for ’speeding on your property’ because the law does not apply to private property.

I don’t understand. You seem to be contradicting yourself. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If the ’scaring the wildlife’ arugment were true then most of the official ‘wild & scenic’ rivers in this nation – which are heavily travelled by recreation paddlers – would be completely devoid of wildlife. The reverse is true – once the land is dedicated by recreational use ONLY – the wildlife return and thrive.. and with the exception of certain ’shy’ species become confortable with humans – especially if they are not shooting them. It’s not the presence of the human itself that disturbs most animals – it is WHAT the human is doing and animals *know* that there is risk is hanging around. This is simply not true. No one said that the riparian zone would become ‘devoid’ of life, and while wildlife may become habituated to some degree, the stresses of human intrusion *remain* to negatively affect populations and vigor. And that wildlife you may see, which may be habituated, ignores those "shy" species, which are in the majority, which may indeed leave the area altogether, or may simply begin a gradual decline. Our federal lands are managed for *multiple* use with the recognition that humans *will* have impacts, and those impacts are balanced against the benefits which accrue to the public. Factually, from a political point of view, it would be highly desireable to simply forbid human access to *most* wilderness areas in order to preserve the habitat, but it’s politically impossible to do so, so we instead try to mitigate the impacts we do have. That’s why permit systems are cropping up on more and more rivers. The impacts of scale have become clear and limitations are required to preserve the resource. Indeed – with respect to ‘wilderness designation’, it’s not the paddlers or recreation folks or environmentalists that are fighting it.. it’s the folks that want to build roads and use motors. Impacts from recreation are easily mitigated.. you employ a permit system and if an area has eagle nests.. then you close it off entirely. The right fringe/landowner rights movement is trying to strike down all of these laws.. they want it all wide open … so that power boats, ski doos, etc can you AND the impacts ARE comparative. 100 canoes CAN and ARE compared to 100 ski-doos. One single four-wheel drive can severly damage a trail… and it has become recognized that hikers can do but it’ll take a 1000 of them… so you permit the use.. no 4-wheel and only 10 hikers per day.. etc etc

True, but largely irrelevant. You do prove my point however that mitigating and preventing impacts is a legitimate method of preserving the resource. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The ‘difficulty’ is that if Colorado actually did what you suggest – that there would be a firestorm and the arugment would be over with very quickly. You would lose big time. Very significant tourism and the public’s perception of being ‘welcome’ are involved. No sane public official would even consider it.. that’ why they’re content to let it be the way it is. Public officials don’t make the decisions, wrong… if the public doesn’t like the court decision they’ll change the law. The ‘law’ is determined by the legislature which consists of publically-elected officials. the Courts do. No amount of feverish desire in pursuit of the almighty dollar can prevent me, or someone else from filing a suit in court claiming an improper taking of private property for public use without just compensation. That’s the purpose of the Constitution, to prevent the tyranny of the majority and the infringements of the rights of the individual by the public. yep…but even the constition can be ammended if the people want it.

True, and when you succeed in repealing the Fifth Amendment, get back to me. While you are technically correct, you must recognize that private property ownership and the prohibitions against the government exproprating property without compensation are one of the core beliefs of our nation, and it’s simply not credible that the vast majority of the public, *who are property owners*, will tear up the Constitution simply to suit a *small number* of boating recreationists who aren’t satisfied with the public … read more »

Response:

It’s all well and good to say that you, one individual boater, does no identifiable harm, but this ignores the impacts of scale, and when a hundred, or a thousand, or ten thousand boaters use the area, the cumulative impacts become significant. Just look at the Grand Canyon.

yes – and that’s why most public lands that incur use impacts are placed in management plans. These plans seek to find the right balance – though I’ll admit it can be arbitrary – especially when it comes to mulltiple-use determinations. It’s a delicate balance of the two, but remember that preserving to pass stewardship on does *not* necessarily mean passing it to the public who want to use the land for recreation.

indeed. the ‘public’ is the government. All land public or private is regulation by Federal, State, and local laws that prevent land-owners from using their land when the impacts of such use affect the public. If you don’t believe this.. try something like a 1000 head feed-lot on your property… or placer mining… or eve condos… none of these will you do without a ‘permit’ and the government decides on behalf of the public if your proposal is ‘in the public interest’. Some folks of late consider these ‘takings’ but underlying ‘public interest’ concept is intact. But this is true ONLY IF the 100 cattle *do* damage the riverbank. Such impacts are not really comparative in nature. Negative impacts cause by paddlers are not "better", or "less negative" impacts simply because they are caused by a paddler instead of a cow, they stand on their own, and when those impacts are unnecessary to begin with, they are that much more improper.

hmmm.. they *are* comparative in terms of impacts… whether it is recreation, farming, mining.. all of these distill down to impacts that can be quantified in terms of water quality, habitat destruction, etc. Cattle may cause negative impacts, which can be mitigated by proper management practices, but cattle are *necessary* impacts in most cases, because they are what pay the taxes and create the profits that are used to continue to preserve the area. It’s all well and good to say "cattle-free in 2003" or whatever (though this mostly applies to federal lands) but the bills have to get paid somehow. I suppose when paddlers fork over the thousands of dollars a year to pay the taxes and maintain the property, then I’ll consider allowing them to trespass. Until then, their impacts, however slight, are *not necessary* to the preservation of the resource, and therefore they are justifiably banned.

"can be mitigated by proper management practices" leaves it up to the landowner whoever that happens to be at a given time. this does not work when money is involved. Many landowners justify the destruction of the land they own for ‘economic benefits’. You are not unilaterally entitled to un-regulated economic activity just because you own the land. Your activity has to be compatible with the ‘public interest’ as there is hardly anything (economic) you can do on your property that won’t ultimately affect the public. There are thousands and thousands of local, state, federal laws that restrict you every which way from Sunday. You may consider recreation not necessary – the public may think otherwise – the same goes for what you think is ‘necessary’. If you public disagrees with you then you may be restricted. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’am also amused by the ’scaring the wildlife’ argument – somewhat because there may be a ‘hint’ of truth for some species but how many species in the last few decades have been not only ’scared’ but just plain wiped-out because the habitat they lived on was used by the landowner for ‘other purposes’? Again, you are comparing apples and oranges. The fact that species and habitat may have been impacted by landowners is a broad generalization and an irrelevant comparison. In my case this is not the case, as is true in many other places, and you cannot claim that your impacts are legitimate merely because other impacts occur. Your impacts stand alone, on their own merits, and you are not excused by the bad behavior of others. Using your logic, you should be able to toss beer cans on the bank, leave rubbish around and cut down trees for firewood just because somebody else does so somewhere else. That’s fallacious logic at best.

I follow the consistency argument and agree but behavior is governed by law whether it occurs on private or public property – though different laws may apply depending on the behavior – for instance some usually can be arrested for ’speeding on your property’ because the law does not apply to private property. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If the ’scaring the wildlife’ arugment were true then most of the official ‘wild & scenic’ rivers in this nation – which are heavily travelled by recreation paddlers – would be completely devoid of wildlife. The reverse is true – once the land is dedicated by recreational use ONLY – the wildlife return and thrive.. and with the exception of certain ’shy’ species become confortable with humans – especially if they are not shooting them. It’s not the presence of the human itself that disturbs most animals – it is WHAT the human is doing and animals *know* that there is risk is hanging around. This is simply not true. No one said that the riparian zone would become ‘devoid’ of life, and while wildlife may become habituated to some degree, the stresses of human intrusion *remain* to negatively affect populations and vigor. And that wildlife you may see, which may be habituated, ignores those "shy" species, which are in the majority, which may indeed leave the area altogether, or may simply begin a gradual decline. Our federal lands are managed for *multiple* use with the recognition that humans *will* have impacts, and those impacts are balanced against the benefits which accrue to the public. Factually, from a political point of view, it would be highly desireable to simply forbid human access to *most* wilderness areas in order to preserve the habitat, but it’s politically impossible to do so, so we instead try to mitigate the impacts we do have. That’s why permit systems are cropping up on more and more rivers. The impacts of scale have become clear and limitations are required to preserve the resource.

Indeed – with respect to ‘wilderness designation’, it’s not the paddlers or recreation folks or environmentalists that are fighting it.. it’s the folks that want to build roads and use motors. Impacts from recreation are easily mitigated.. you employ a permit system and if an area has eagle nests.. then you close it off entirely. The right fringe/landowner rights movement is trying to strike down all of these laws.. they want it all wide open … so that power boats, ski doos, etc can you AND the impacts ARE comparative. 100 canoes CAN and ARE compared to 100 ski-doos. One single four-wheel drive can severly damage a trail… and it has become recognized that hikers can do but it’ll take a 1000 of them… so you permit the use.. no 4-wheel and only 10 hikers per day.. etc etc The ‘difficulty’ is that if Colorado actually did what you suggest – that there would be a firestorm and the arugment would be over with very quickly. You would lose big time. Very significant tourism and the public’s perception of being ‘welcome’ are involved. No sane public official would even consider it.. that’ why they’re content to let it be the way it is. Public officials don’t make the decisions,

wrong… if the public doesn’t like the court decision they’ll change the law. The ‘law’ is determined by the legislature which consists of publically-elected officials. the Courts do. No amount of feverish desire in pursuit of the almighty dollar can prevent me, or someone else from filing a suit in court claiming an improper taking of private property for public use without just compensation. That’s the purpose of the Constitution, to prevent the tyranny of the majority and the infringements of the rights of the individual by the public.

yep…but even the constition can be ammended if the people want it. If I were to do as I suggest, *something* would happen, either the trespassers would be arrested, or *I* would be arrested for "illegally" preventing them from trespassing, or they would file a suit, or I would. And as soon as the matter comes to court, the LAW rules, and I am quite confident in the strength of my legal case.

Like I said… if the law in Colorado was rigidly enforced along the lines that you suggest… and paddlers were kicked off of the major streams.. you could expect the law to change – regardless of how the courts feel. When you have a law like they have in Colorado and it’s not enforced.. there is a message in it. Federal Laws can force changes in Colorado law also – and do all the time. In the end… in a democracy… "rights" are decided by the people. You have no "right" to economic activity or even landowner rights if the public that votes disagrees with you. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Regards, Scott Weiser ****** "I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend upon my friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" ****** http://www.dimensional.com/~weiser/ Copyright 1998 by Scott Weiser Under the UCC, by the act of transmitting any commercial e-mail advertisment to this address, you are expressly contracting with me in my professional capacity for a consultation on the ad’s effectiveness and you expressly agree to pay to me the sum of $250.00 for each such consultation within 10 days of my report to the original sending address. You further expressly agree that all actions for recovery of fees owed shall be subject solely to the laws of the State of Colorado, which shall have sole

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Correct, and the point is that *somebody* just might own such places, and you could lose the access in a heartbeat due to the malefactions of one or two individual paddlers. yep – actually this is more common that most folks either know or will admit. In Virginia – The Cowpasture River ( not great whitewater but a really beautify mountain river) is essentially off-limits. Others include Back Creek and the Jackson. Had a little old lady point a long-barreled 45 at our group on the Bullpasture. She wanted us off of "her damned land" NOW! People have been arrested in the past and many others are "warned" by local landowners before they even put in. Interestingly, we *used* to be able to get permission from the landowner group for a number of years and then suddenly we were refused. Not because we had done anything wrong – we ALWAYS sought permission and ALWAYS were polite – but because 1 landowner out of dozens didn’t want ANYBODY and didn’t care whether they were polite or respectful or anything else. End of story. All of years of carefully trying to not step on anyones toes went for naught. Um….I think this qualifies as a "broad generalization" of the type which Richard was objecting to when applied to paddlers, so I guess I have to object to it when applied to "landowners". After all, my purpose is not to develop or destroy the resource, it’s to protect it from the damage caused by public use. yep, i erred in the generalization. there is a link however. I don’t buy your ‘protection’ argument. I’ve paddled hundreds of rivers in 30 years of boating and damage, if any, is miniscule compared to cattle, 4 wheelers, local trash dumps, roadside dumps, fishermen – believe it of not!, logging, farming, and industry.

This may be true elsewhere, but the fact that others may cause more damage does not reduce the impacts which boaters cause, and since whatever those impacts are are unnecessary, it’s perfectly proper to prevent them. Actually, of late, many rivers have been saved from damage by pointing out that they are used significantly for recreation. also interesting is that once a River becomes officially protected and becomes a destination for paddlers – the localities reap economic benefit AND the river then becomes essentially off-limits to single-minded proposals that *would* damage it.

If economic benefits were the only criteria perhaps this would be valid. You do make a valid point that public awareness of the particular value of a particular river can be helpful in protecting the resource, but far too often the negative impacts of public access do more harm than good. It’s all well and good to say that you, one individual boater, does no identifiable harm, but this ignores the impacts of scale, and when a hundred, or a thousand, or ten thousand boaters use the area, the cumulative impacts become significant. Just look at the Grand Canyon. It’s a delicate balance of the two, but remember that preserving to pass stewardship on does *not* necessarily mean passing it to the public who want to use the land for recreation. I don’t think it is a ‘delicate balance’ at all. In most cases, it is fairly clear what the landowners intentions are.. you can see it in the way they take care of ( or not ) the land. Recreation does not harm the land on near the same scale as say cattle. A hundred cattle can totally ruin a river bank and turn a clean stream into a mess. A 100 paddlers – even if they all urinated in unison wouldn’t even come close.

But this is true ONLY IF the 100 cattle *do* damage the riverbank. Such impacts are not really comparative in nature. Negative impacts cause by paddlers are not "better", or "less negative" impacts simply because they are caused by a paddler instead of a cow, they stand on their own, and when those impacts are unnecessary to begin with, they are that much more improper. Cattle may cause negative impacts, which can be mitigated by proper management practices, but cattle are *necessary* impacts in most cases, because they are what pay the taxes and create the profits that are used to continue to preserve the area. It’s all well and good to say "cattle-free in 2003" or whatever (though this mostly applies to federal lands) but the bills have to get paid somehow. I suppose when paddlers fork over the thousands of dollars a year to pay the taxes and maintain the property, then I’ll consider allowing them to trespass. Until then, their impacts, however slight, are *not necessary* to the preservation of the resource, and therefore they are justifiably banned. I’am also amused by the ’scaring the wildlife’ argument – somewhat because there may be a ‘hint’ of truth for some species but how many species in the last few decades have been not only ’scared’ but just plain wiped-out because the habitat they lived on was used by the landowner for ‘other purposes’?

Again, you are comparing apples and oranges. The fact that species and habitat may have been impacted by landowners is a broad generalization and an irrelevant comparison. In my case this is not the case, as is true in many other places, and you cannot claim that your impacts are legitimate merely because other impacts occur. Your impacts stand alone, on their own merits, and you are not excused by the bad behavior of others. Using your logic, you should be able to toss beer cans on the bank, leave rubbish around and cut down trees for firewood just because somebody else does so somewhere else. That’s fallacious logic at best. If the ’scaring the wildlife’ arugment were true then most of the official ‘wild & scenic’ rivers in this nation – which are heavily travelled by recreation paddlers – would be completely devoid of wildlife. The reverse is true – once the land is dedicated by recreational use ONLY – the wildlife return and thrive.. and with the exception of certain ’shy’ species become confortable with humans – especially if they are not shooting them. It’s not the presence of the human itself that disturbs most animals – it is WHAT the human is doing and animals *know* that there is risk is hanging around.

This is simply not true. No one said that the riparian zone would become ‘devoid’ of life, and while wildlife may become habituated to some degree, the stresses of human intrusion *remain* to negatively affect populations and vigor. And that wildlife you may see, which may be habituated, ignores those "shy" species, which are in the majority, which may indeed leave the area altogether, or may simply begin a gradual decline. Our federal lands are managed for *multiple* use with the recognition that humans *will* have impacts, and those impacts are balanced against the benefits which accrue to the public. Factually, from a political point of view, it would be highly desireable to simply forbid human access to *most* wilderness areas in order to preserve the habitat, but it’s politically impossible to do so, so we instead try to mitigate the impacts we do have. That’s why permit systems are cropping up on more and more rivers. The impacts of scale have become clear and limitations are required to preserve the resource. Those impacts are just as present on Boulder Creek, though to a lesser degree. The difficulty is that many jurisdictions are relying upon the *** snip legal rambling **** Pity I don’t own such a parcel…..I could bring this thing to a head quite quickly…. The ‘difficulty’ is that if Colorado actually did what you suggest – that there would be a firestorm and the arugment would be over with very quickly. You would lose big time. Very significant tourism and the public’s perception of being ‘welcome’ are involved. No sane public official would even consider it.. that’ why they’re content to let it be the way it is.

Public officials don’t make the decisions, the Courts do. No amount of feverish desire in pursuit of the almighty dollar can prevent me, or someone else from filing a suit in court claiming an improper taking of private property for public use without just compensation. That’s the purpose of the Constitution, to prevent the tyranny of the majority and the infringements of the rights of the individual by the public. If I were to do as I suggest, *something* would happen, either the trespassers would be arrested, or *I* would be arrested for "illegally" preventing them from trespassing, or they would file a suit, or I would. And as soon as the matter comes to court, the LAW rules, and I am quite confident in the strength of my legal case. Regards, Scott Weiser ****** "I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend upon my friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" ****** http://www.dimensional.com/~weiser/ Copyright 1998 by Scott Weiser Under the UCC, by the act of transmitting any commercial e-mail advertisment to this address, you are expressly contracting with me in my professional capacity for a consultation on the ad’s effectiveness and you expressly agree to pay to me the sum of $250.00 for each such consultation within 10 days of my report to the original sending address. You further expressly agree that all actions for recovery of fees owed shall be subject solely to the laws of the State of Colorado, which shall have sole jurisdiction.

Response:

Correct, and the point is that *somebody* just might own such places, and you could lose the access in a heartbeat due to the malefactions of one or two individual paddlers.

yep – actually this is more common that most folks either know or will admit. In Virginia – The Cowpasture River ( not great whitewater but a really beautify mountain river) is essentially off-limits. Others include Back Creek and the Jackson. Had a little old lady point a long-barreled 45 at our group on the Bullpasture. She wanted us off of "her damned land" NOW! People have been arrested in the past and many others are "warned" by local landowners before they even put in. Interestingly, we *used* to be able to get permission from the landowner group for a number of years and then suddenly we were refused. Not because we had done anything wrong – we ALWAYS sought permission and ALWAYS were polite – but because 1 landowner out of dozens didn’t want ANYBODY and didn’t care whether they were polite or respectful or anything else. End of story. All of years of carefully trying to not step on anyones toes went for naught. Um….I think this qualifies as a "broad generalization" of the type which Richard was objecting to when applied to paddlers, so I guess I have to object to it when applied to "landowners". After all, my purpose is not to develop or destroy the resource, it’s to protect it from the damage caused by public use.

yep, i erred in the generalization. there is a link however. I don’t buy your ‘protection’ argument. I’ve paddled hundreds of rivers in 30 years of boating and damage, if any, is miniscule compared to cattle, 4 wheelers, local trash dumps, roadside dumps, fishermen – believe it of not!, logging, farming, and industry. Actually, of late, many rivers have been saved from damage by pointing out that they are used significantly for recreation. also interesting is that once a River becomes officially protected and becomes a destination for paddlers – the localities reap economic benefit AND the river then becomes essentially off-limits to single-minded proposals that *would* damage it. It’s a delicate balance of the two, but remember that preserving to pass stewardship on does *not* necessarily mean passing it to the public who want to use the land for recreation.

I don’t think it is a ‘delicate balance’ at all. In most cases, it is fairly clear what the landowners intentions are.. you can see it in the way they take care of ( or not ) the land. Recreation does not harm the land on near the same scale as say cattle. A hundred cattle can totally ruin a river bank and turn a clean stream into a mess. A 100 paddlers – even if they all urinated in unison wouldn’t even come close. I’am also amused by the ’scaring the wildlife’ argument – somewhat because there may be a ‘hint’ of truth for some species but how many species in the last few decades have been not only ’scared’ but just plain wiped-out because the habitat they lived on was used by the landowner for ‘other purposes’? If the ’scaring the wildlife’ arugment were true then most of the official ‘wild & scenic’ rivers in this nation – which are heavily travelled by recreation paddlers – would be completely devoid of wildlife. The reverse is true – once the land is dedicated by recreational use ONLY – the wildlife return and thrive.. and with the exception of certain ’shy’ species become confortable with humans – especially if they are not shooting them. It’s not the presence of the human itself that disturbs most animals – it is WHAT the human is doing and animals *know* that there is risk is hanging around. The difficulty is that many jurisdictions are relying upon the

*** snip legal rambling **** Pity I don’t own such a parcel…..I could bring this thing to a head quite quickly….

The ‘difficulty’ is that if Colorado actually did what you suggest – that there would be a firestorm and the arugment would be over with very quickly. You would lose big time. Very significant tourism and the public’s perception of being ‘welcome’ are involved. No sane public official would even consider it.. that’ why they’re content to let it be the way it is. Absolutely correct, and only by dialog between landowners and river users can such conflicts be peacefully and properly resolved with benefit to everyone.

I actually agree with the basic premise that no one is guanranteed access to private land because they are engaging in what they perceive as a ‘noble’ activity. Usually, it’s scumballs who cloak themselves with the ‘noble activity’ and then abuse the landowner. We’ve seen it with hunting and to some extent with boating. I’ve always subscribed to the idea that if someone owns the land that *I* need to *ask permission* and if they refuse – they refuse. It is their right. It burns my butt when 99 paddlers are polite and ask permission and then Mr asshole waltz’s in and screws it up for everybody. Folks from the ‘big’ cities are often the worst offenders. For some odd reason, I’ve never been able to understand they think they are ‘entitled’ to treaspass once in the rural landscape. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Regards, Scott Weiser ****** "I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend upon my friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" ****** http://www.dimensional.com/~weiser/ Copyright 1998 by Scott Weiser Under the UCC, by the act of transmitting any commercial e-mail advertisment to this address, you are expressly contracting with me in my professional capacity for a consultation on the ad’s effectiveness and you expressly agree to pay to me the sum of $250.00 for each such consultation within 10 days of my report to the original sending address. You further expressly agree that all actions for recovery of fees owed shall be subject solely to the laws of the State of Colorado, which shall have sole jurisdiction.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am willing to conceed to Scott that there is a valid interest in these dicussions on this newsgroup, but I do wish I could make the "NOT weiser" boolean search request work on my newsreader client. The problem I have with these posts is that Scott seems to be preoccupied with preaching legal findings and citing past relevant rulings to paddlers that are responding back with statements like "If I can paddle it, the river is navigable!" and "Just try to stop me!". Reading these threads is like sitting in a nicely furnished living room watching an acclaimed vet scold his dog by using the following phrase…"Sparky, the reason you should not urinate on the carpet is because the acidic nature of your fluid excrement has an adverse effect on both the optical appearance of this synthetic-based floor covering and also tends to react unpleasantly with the olfactory processes of myself and my house guests. Please, Sparky, give me a reason why I should not confine you to your pre-designated travel container." Whereas, the more intelligent vet, the person that learns through careful observation would say "Bad Dog, go to your box.", realizing that dogs do not make for good argument.

ROTFLMAO. What a hoot….I had not thought to compare kayakers to untrainable dogs. I sort of thought by presenting the evidence in (hopefully) a manner which the average adult could understand, that people would discover the logic involved themselves and make good decisions based upon that knowledge. I’ve had quite a bit of evidence that this is indeed the case. While you may tire of repetition (as I do), there is a constant stream of people who *don’t* understand and might like to who deserve to be informed of the controversy and the facts surrounding it so that they, too, can make informed decisions. My suggestion is that those who know the material and have made the decision, one way or the other, simply skip the threads altogether and allow those who *are* interested debate the matter with me in peace and quiet. Unfortunately, those who have seen the material cannot seem to control themselves and insist on insulting me and interrupting valid and interesting conversations among others. It’s a lot like a high-school student running into a class full of 8th graders and shouting "Hey, teach, shut the **ck up! I’ve heard all this before and you annoy me!" Why can’t those who don’t like the nature of the discussion simply switch off and go for a paddle and leave those who wish to discuss alone? I suspect it’s because such people are violently opposed to my particular argument and see it as dangerous, and decide to do whatever they can to disrupt the flow of information. It’s a lame attempt at censorship, nothing more, and I’ll tell you here and now it won’t work. I guess what I am trying to say here is that the best communicators are the ones that can tailor a response, argumentative or otherwise, to the intended audience. Make your point and make it clear. There is nothing wrong with being a highly intelligent, well versed, individual, but make no mistake…a highly- intelligent, well-versed idiot is still an idiot. Finally, Scott, if you feel the need to reply to this posting, I will assume that you deem me a colleague worth engaging with in meaningful debate. If your words truly express your feelings about me…

I think you have made a trenchant statement of fact, and I appreciate your candor. I hope that my reply is likewise informative. We agree more than we disagree, but I have a policy about "Shut the **ck UP!" threads, which is that I reply to them with whatever degree of politeness is called for until those posting to the thread….shut the **ck up. Then I return to the adult debates about access issues and the law with those who wish to discuss the issue. When nobody cares to discuss it anymore, then the thread dies and I retreat to my place under the bridge for a time, until some event stimulates me to begin again, for a new crop of paddlers who may be in need of enlightenment. (Your Previous Posting) <CLIP If you don’t like the course of the conversation, then toddle off and start one of your own instead of sniping at the adults who are having an interesting discussion. You sound like a three-year-old who’s whining and throwing a temper tantrum because Mommy is ignoring you. <CLIP …then why do you bother post a reply, I personally do not waste my time reasoning with someone that sounded like a spoiled three-year-old.

It’s not for *their* benefit, it’s for the benefit of others, and for my own amusement. If you do repond and I do not, please do not feel bad. Sometimes I go out and paddle instead of talking about it in this newsgroup.

Good plan. BTW- I apologize for the YELLING in my first post, it was uncalled for.

No problem, I’m a very forgiving kind of guy. Regards, Scott Weiser ****** "I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend upon my friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" ****** http://www.dimensional.com/~weiser/ Copyright 1998 by Scott Weiser Under the UCC, by the act of transmitting any commercial e-mail advertisment to this address, you are expressly contracting with me in my professional capacity for a consultation on the ad’s effectiveness and you expressly agree to pay to me the sum of $250.00 for each such consultation within 10 days of my report to the original sending address. You further expressly agree that all actions for recovery of fees owed shall be subject solely to the laws of the State of Colorado, which shall have sole jurisdiction.

Response:

Hey, hey. We should be counting our blessings. Suppose Mr. Weiser owned the put-in to the Ocoee or Chatooga?

Correct, and the point is that *somebody* just might own such places, and you could lose the access in a heartbeat due to the malefactions of one or two individual paddlers. Paddlers need to know about folks like him AND how he thinks. Mr. Weiser is representative of many ‘landowner rights’ advocates some of whom also belong to the ‘Wise Use’ groups. They usually not only want to keep paddlers off the rivers but they want to develop their land in any way they please even if it destroys natural resources.

Um….I think this qualifies as a "broad generalization" of the type which Richard was objecting to when applied to paddlers, so I guess I have to object to it when applied to "landowners". After all, my purpose is not to develop or destroy the resource, it’s to protect it from the damage caused by public use. Some folks think if they own land that it ‘ALL MINE’ and I can do with it what I want while others see themselves as temporary stewards responsible for passing the land on to others to also will practice stewardship.

It’s a delicate balance of the two, but remember that preserving to pass stewardship on does *not* necessarily mean passing it to the public who want to use the land for recreation. It is a significant movement and unless paddlers and others become involved and pay attention – you’ll see more and more rivers placed off-limits. I’m amazed that if Colorado Law is what Mr. Weiser sez it is that ANY rivers out there can be accessed legally. Something doesn’t fit. I wonder how popular rivers fare on the access issue in that state.

The difficulty is that many jurisdictions are relying upon the Attorney General’s opinion of the effects of changing the definition of "premises", including the state Department of Natural Resources, which leads to inconsistent enforcement of the law and a misunderstanding of the law itself. The issue is still unresolved because no case has been brought to overturn the AG’s opinion and confirm the Emmert Court’s decision. I hope it won’t come to that, because such a ruling would *shut down* public recreational use of most of the important recreational waters of the state, including the Number section of the Arkansas, which, while most of it is on BLM or Forest Service land, is criss-crossed by private "inholdings", any one of which could choose at any time to prohibit trespass and thereby destroy the ability to complete the float at all, since there’s no way to egress at the closed properties. This is why I propose a system which allows the state to, in this example, *condemn* a recreational easement if necessary to assure continued access to the entire run. But the essential part is that the state must *pay for* the access. After all, commercial whitewater recreation on the Arkansas is a multi-million dollar industry, which makes that easement quite valuable. I’ve suggested before the possibility that a landowner who owns a strip of land under the river somewhere in the middle of the popular section could simply take photos of every commercial raft which passes by in a season, identify the outfitter, count the number of heads and send them a bill at, say, $5.00 a head for a "trespass fee." I imagine this would get the attention of the recreational community rather quickly. Pity I don’t own such a parcel…..I could bring this thing to a head quite quickly…. The thread has been excellent raising awareness and I’ll bet more than a few now realize how important it is to contribute/join the AWA who works on behalf paddlers on access issues.

Absolutely correct, and only by dialog between landowners and river users can such conflicts be peacefully and properly resolved with benefit to everyone. Regards, Scott Weiser ****** "I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend upon my friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" ****** http://www.dimensional.com/~weiser/ Copyright 1998 by Scott Weiser Under the UCC, by the act of transmitting any commercial e-mail advertisment to this address, you are expressly contracting with me in my professional capacity for a consultation on the ad’s effectiveness and you expressly agree to pay to me the sum of $250.00 for each such consultation within 10 days of my report to the original sending address. You further expressly agree that all actions for recovery of fees owed shall be subject solely to the laws of the State of Colorado, which shall have sole jurisdiction.

Response:

Shut Up, Shut up, Shut Up!!! For the love of God people please stop this nonesense. Like everyone else I give a damn but I’m F%#$ing tired of seeing all these lame Wesier posts. Dear lord have mercy on our souls!! T.J.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey, hey. We should be counting our blessings. Suppose Mr. Weiser owned the put-in to the Ocoee or Chatooga? Paddlers need to know about folks like him AND how he thinks. Mr. Weiser is representative of many ‘landowner rights’ advocates some of whom also belong to the ‘Wise Use’ groups. They usually not only want to keep paddlers off the rivers but they want to develop their land in any way they please even if it destroys natural resources. Some folks think if they own land that it ‘ALL MINE’ and I can do with it what I want while others see themselves as temporary stewards responsible for passing the land on to others to also will practice stewardship. It is a significant movement and unless paddlers and others become involved and pay attention – you’ll see more and more rivers placed off-limits. I’m amazed that if Colorado Law is what Mr. Weiser sez it is that ANY rivers out there can be accessed legally. Something doesn’t fit. I wonder how popular rivers fare on the access issue in that state. The thread has been excellent raising awareness and I’ll bet more than a few now realize how important it is to contribute/join the AWA who works on behalf paddlers on access issues.

I will go against the spirit of my original post and add a few more coals to the fire. Larry, you make a good point here. It is important that people reading this newsgroup realize the opinions of Scott and landowners like him. I do admit that I skimmed over the legal content of your posting pretty lightly, because I myself (speaking only for myself) do not give much consideration to written law while paddling. Not to say that I am a scofflaw, I just rely on simple common sense and judgement when leaving the city for a relaxing paddling trip. In my opinion, many access laws are on the books for liability reasons. There is a certain river here in the Southeast, that is officially banned from access. I have been told by local law enforcement officials that they do not particularly mind paddlers on the river, nor do they bother them if the right attitude is excercised by the group. The law was enacted to protect the state in the event of an unforseen accident. When I paddle, I paddle until told not to. If a local landowner expresses their concern in my paddling, I respect their wishes. If I should get arrested and am legally "in the wrong", I pay my fine and do not visit that particular area again. This approach has not failed me yet. Mutual respect goes quite a long way here in the Southeast. Maybe things are different in Colorado, I really do not know. I am not saying we should feel that we have the right to paddle anywhere. I am simply saying that 9 times out of ten, if you are not making a problem for anyone, people usually do not make problems for you. If Mr. Weiser’s family property on Boulder Creek contains a fence to control livestock, and by Colorado law they have a right to maintain that fence, then I would say paddling that section does impose a problem on someone, so it shold be avoided. It is quite possible that if there was no need for the fence, the Weisers may not care if their property is paddled across, who knows, it does not really matter. If I am paddling down a "legal" creek and a trout fisherman has inadvertantly snagged his line across the river, I wait, or help, or get out and walk around. I do not care who is or is not supposed to be there. (enough rambling, I will try to make my point here.) I am willing to conceed to Scott that there is a valid interest in these dicussions on this newsgroup, but I do wish I could make the "NOT weiser" boolean search request work on my newsreader client. The problem I have with these posts is that Scott seems to be preoccupied with preaching legal findings and citing past relevant rulings to paddlers that are responding back with statements like "If I can paddle it, the river is navigable!" and "Just try to stop me!". Reading these threads is like sitting in a nicely furnished living room watching an acclaimed vet scold his dog by using the following phrase…"Sparky, the reason you should not urinate on the carpet is because the acidic nature of your fluid excrement has an adverse effect on both the optical appearance of this synthetic-based floor covering and also tends to react unpleasantly with the olfactory processes of myself and my house guests. Please, Sparky, give me a reason why I should not confine you to your pre-designated travel container." Whereas, the more intelligent vet, the person that learns through careful observation would say "Bad Dog, go to your box.", realizing that dogs do not make for good argument. I guess what I am trying to say here is that the best communicators are the ones that can tailor a response, argumentative or otherwise, to the intended audience. Make your point and make it clear. There is nothing wrong with being a highly intelligent, well versed, individual, but make no mistake…a highly- intelligent, well-versed idiot is still an idiot. Finally, Scott, if you feel the need to reply to this posting, I will assume that you deem me a colleague worth engaging with in meaningful debate. If your words truly express your feelings about me… (Your Previous Posting) <CLIP If you don’t like the course of the conversation, then toddle off and start one of your own instead of sniping at the adults who are having an interesting discussion. You sound like a three-year-old who’s whining and throwing a temper tantrum because Mommy is ignoring you.

<CLIP …then why do you bother post a reply, I personally do not waste my time reasoning with someone that sounded like a spoiled three-year-old. If you do repond and I do not, please do not feel bad. Sometimes I go out and paddle instead of talking about it in this newsgroup. BTW- I apologize for the YELLING in my first post, it was uncalled for. SYOTR (well maybe 99.9% of you) -Craig

Response:

From, Mick "Better to be paddlin’ hard than hardly paddlin’ "

Response:

I think it’s kind of funny. Near the beginning of the great return of Weiser, everyone was more or less agreeing with him. Now he’s isolated himself against the NG again by posting more to this newsgroup on a few days than I have since I’ve started looking at it.

Of course, the slingers of insults who *start* the threads have *nothing* to do with it…..not… If only the "vocal minority" were able to leave well enough alone, then perhaps these pyrotechnic offshoots wouldn’t happen, but of course, unable to audit their conduct, they just *have* to get a dig in there. Well, poke me and I poke right back. You want it to stop, you stop it. Regards, Scott Weiser ****** "I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend upon my friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" ****** http://www.dimensional.com/~weiser/ Copyright 1998 by Scott Weiser Under the UCC, by the act of transmitting any commercial e-mail advertisment to this address, you are expressly contracting with me in my professional capacity for a consultation on the ad’s effectiveness and you expressly agree to pay to me the sum of $250.00 for each such consultation within 10 days of my report to the original sending address. You further expressly agree that all actions for recovery of fees owed shall be subject solely to the laws of the State of Colorado, which shall have sole jurisdiction.

Response:

Hey, hey. We should be counting our blessings. Suppose Mr. Weiser owned the put-in to the Ocoee or Chatooga? Paddlers need to know about folks like him AND how he thinks. Mr. Weiser is representative of many ‘landowner rights’ advocates some of whom also belong to the ‘Wise Use’ groups. They usually not only want to keep paddlers off the rivers but they want to develop their land in any way they please even if it destroys natural resources. Some folks think if they own land that it ‘ALL MINE’ and I can do with it what I want while others see themselves as temporary stewards responsible for passing the land on to others to also will practice stewardship. It is a significant movement and unless paddlers and others become involved and pay attention – you’ll see more and more rivers placed off-limits. I’m amazed that if Colorado Law is what Mr. Weiser sez it is that ANY rivers out there can be accessed legally. Something doesn’t fit. I wonder how popular rivers fare on the access issue in that state. The thread has been excellent raising awareness and I’ll bet more than a few now realize how important it is to contribute/join the AWA who works on behalf paddlers on access issues.

Response:

I apologize in advance, but there really is no diplomatic way to state this… ENOUGH WITH THE DAMN ACCESS DEBATE THREADS!

Thank you for that trenchant commentary. I am a kayaker. I view and post to this newsgroup in order to keep abreast of new happenings in the sport I love.

And access debates have nothing to do with your sport? Boy, are you deluded. And just what makes you think that anyone else is obliged to give a rodent’s fundamental orifice about why YOU choose to participate here or what YOU like or want? When I see three postings (or threads) involving a river access issue, I think "Good debate, there have been some valid issues presented here". When I see thirty posts, mostly by one individual, I think "These (expletive’in) people have nothing better to do with their time."

Well, I do rather enjoy jousting with the fine folks here…and the Netwits too. It’s my time to waste though, so what’s your beef? Remember, I only post in reply to a query or discussion from someone else who, axiomatically, *is* interested in the subject. Please, If you are absolutely hot-and-bothered to the point that you are treating this news group like your own personal chat-room, I understand…But keep it private, e-mail is really an ideal medium for this type of thing. Don’t clog this otherwise interesting group with twenty different post that are essentially the same in content.

Clog the group? Have you ever heard of a concept called the "delete" key? How about the "down arrow" key? Both of them will allow you to completely bypass any discussion which might cause consternation and confusion in your tiny mind. There’s and even better one….it’s called the "OFF" switch. Use it in good health, but USE it. If the posts are the same in content, it’s because others keep asking the same questions, and as long as they do, I’ll keep responding to them because it’s the polite thing to do. For the record, Yes, I do now know that Scott Weiser(sp?) is very familiar with private domain laws in Colorado and he would prefer that kayakers show a little more respect towards his family’s legal wishes. I also know that there are a lot of disrespectful boaters out there that believe once the water droplet leaves the cloud, it is there God-given right to use it at their convenience. Well folks, these are things I learned in the first few posts. I can see both sides of the argument, but really do not give a flying (expletive)!

And so you would impose your will on everyone else, some of whom might be interested, simply because you don’t have the wit to skip a thread. How very altruistic of you. If you have any other opinions that you think I am interested in past that point, know that I am not. If any of you involved in this thread think of any other gems that need to be discussed pertaining to this topic. Please, WRITE YOUR (EXPLETIVE’IN) CONGRESSMAN OR SHUT THE (EXPLETIVE) UP!

Let me see if I can put this delicately……No. If you don’t like the course of the conversation, then toddle off and start one of your own instead of sniping at the adults who are having an interesting discussion. You sound like a three-year-old who’s whining and throwing a temper tantrum because Mommy is ignoring you. Grow up and act like an adult. Regards, Scott Weiser ****** "I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend upon my friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" ****** http://www.dimensional.com/~weiser/ Copyright 1998 by Scott Weiser Under the UCC, by the act of transmitting any commercial e-mail advertisment to this address, you are expressly contracting with me in my professional capacity for a consultation on the ad’s effectiveness and you expressly agree to pay to me the sum of $250.00 for each such consultation within 10 days of my report to the original sending address. You further expressly agree that all actions for recovery of fees owed shall be subject solely to the laws of the State of Colorado, which shall have sole jurisdiction.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You know, I agree with just about everything Scott said in this post. Nobody forces you to read every article on the newsgroup. Just skip over the threads you don’t like. I know we’ve gone over this subject a zillion times, but apparently we keep getting new people in the group who are not aware of the differences in access laws from place to place. Some of these people want argue with Scott, but it really won’t do them any good–they can’t change the laws of the state of Colorado. They do, however, learn from the exchanges. And for every person who posts in the thread, there are at least ten who are reading it and learning from it. If paddlers improve their behaviour wrt access, then maybe some irate landowners who have the power to block access to put-ins or even to the entire river may decide that paddlers aren’t so bad. If these threads improve our collective behaviour enough that the closure of just one river is avoided, then it will be worthwhile.

Well said. I do take issue with one of Scott’s statements, though. Remember, I only post in reply to a query or discussion from someone else who, axiomatically, *is* interested in the subject. Scott, you were the first poster on this subject. So one out of the dozens of your posts was NOT a repy. (OK, I may be picking at straws there, but read on.) Also, just the other day, you replied to a post that was completely unrelated (i.e. had nothing to do with access), and did so in a manner that seemed (to me) aimed at starting another big thread. Hence, you do not ONLY post to reply to questions about access, although I would agree that the vast majority of your posts are valid replies. If you had said that you "usually" or "generally only reply… then I would have no argument with your statement.

Well, you’ve got me there. I admit to priming the pan from time to time, but you can hardly blame me when the flash occurs. It’s possible for everyone to simply ignore my flashy lures, but it’s also highly unlikely, as I have discovered, and so I take advantage of that phenomenon to stimulate debate, and this has been another interesting and lively debate, and, as you so succintly said, some people learned something new. Whether they like what they learned, or agree with it is unimportant, what’s important is that they have had their horizons expanded, which is *always* a good thing. Regards, Scott Weiser ****** "I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend upon my friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" ****** http://www.dimensional.com/~weiser/ Copyright 1998 by Scott Weiser Under the UCC, by the act of transmitting any commercial e-mail advertisment to this address, you are expressly contracting with me in my professional capacity for a consultation on the ad’s effectiveness and you expressly agree to pay to me the sum of $250.00 for each such consultation within 10 days of my report to the original sending address. You further expressly agree that all actions for recovery of fees owed shall be subject solely to the laws of the State of Colorado, which shall have sole jurisdiction.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I apologize in advance, but there really is no diplomatic way to state this… ENOUGH WITH THE DAMN ACCESS DEBATE THREADS! I am a kayaker. I view and post to this newsgroup in order to keep abreast of new happenings in the sport I love. When I see three postings (or threads) involving a river access issue, I think "Good debate, there have been some valid issues presented here". When I see thirty posts, mostly by one individual, I think "These (expletive’in) people have nothing better to do with their time." Please, If you are absolutely hot-and-bothered to the point that you are treating this news group like your own personal chat-room, I understand…But keep it private, e-mail is really an ideal medium for this type of thing. Don’t clog this otherwise interesting group with twenty different post that are essentially the same in content. For the record, Yes, I do now know that Scott Weiser(sp?) is very familiar with private domain laws in Colorado and he would prefer that kayakers show a little more respect towards his family’s legal wishes. I also know that there are a lot of disrespectful boaters out there that believe once the water droplet leaves the cloud, it is there God-given right to use it at their convenience. Well folks, these are things I learned in the first few posts. I can see both sides of the argument, but really do not give a flying (expletive)! If you have any other opinions that you think I am interested in past that point, know that I am not. If any of you involved in this thread think of any other gems that need to be discussed pertaining to this topic. Please, WRITE YOUR (EXPLETIVE’IN) CONGRESSMAN OR SHUT THE (EXPLETIVE) UP! By the way, if any of you would like to paddle this weekend, let me know Let me out of this concrete jungle, -Craig "no playboat yet" Geist

You better watch out buddy … you started a new possible deadly feud here … you better know that Mr. Weiser is a very fast typist, commands the English language like no other, is an expert of all laws of the king’s land, he is a sharp shooter (he is also a gunsmithlike expert) and a land "king size" owner. You are doomed my friend! Scotty will beam your tired sorry paddling ass up! PS: I really felt sorry for the incident and for the two idiots that went after Mr. Weiser’s mother but this is to much! Fred Fred Mechini Visit my homepage http://pluto.njcc.com/~fmec/Welcome.html A WEB PAGE DEDICATED TO OLYMPIC SPRINT KAYAK

Response:

You know, I agree with just about everything Scott said in this post. Nobody forces you to read every article on the newsgroup. Just skip over the threads you don’t like. I know we’ve gone over this subject a zillion times, but apparently we keep getting new people in the group who are not aware of the differences in access laws from place to place. Some of these people want argue with Scott, but it really won’t do them any good–they can’t change the laws of the state of Colorado. They do, however, learn from the exchanges. And for every person who posts in the thread, there are at least ten who are reading it and learning from it. If paddlers improve their behaviour wrt access, then maybe some irate landowners who have the power to block access to put-ins or even to the entire river may decide that paddlers aren’t so bad. If these threads improve our collective behaviour enough that the closure of just one river is avoided, then it will be worthwhile. I do take issue with one of Scott’s statements, though. Remember, I only post in reply to a query or discussion from someone else who, axiomatically, *is* interested in the subject.

Scott, you were the first poster on this subject. So one out of the dozens of your posts was NOT a repy. (OK, I may be picking at straws there, but read on.) Also, just the other day, you replied to a post that was completely unrelated (i.e. had nothing to do with access), and did so in a manner that seemed (to me) aimed at starting another big thread. Hence, you do not ONLY post to reply to questions about access, although I would agree that the vast majority of your posts are valid replies. If you had said that you "usually" or "generally only reply… then I would have no argument with your statement. -Paul

Response:

I apologize in advance, but there really is no diplomatic way to state this… ENOUGH WITH THE DAMN ACCESS DEBATE THREADS! I am a kayaker. I view and post to this newsgroup in order to keep abreast of new happenings in the sport I love. When I see three postings (or threads) involving a river access issue, I think "Good debate, there have been some valid issues presented here". When I see thirty posts, mostly by one individual, I think "These (expletive’in) people have nothing better to do with their time." Please, If you are absolutely hot-and-bothered to the point that you are treating this news group like your own personal chat-room, I understand…But keep it private, e-mail is really an ideal medium for this type of thing. Don’t clog this otherwise interesting group with twenty different post that are essentially the same in content. For the record, Yes, I do now know that Scott Weiser(sp?) is very familiar with private domain laws in Colorado and he would prefer that kayakers show a little more respect towards his family’s legal wishes. I also know that there are a lot of disrespectful boaters out there that believe once the water droplet leaves the cloud, it is there God-given right to use it at their convenience. Well folks, these are things I learned in the first few posts. I can see both sides of the argument, but really do not give a flying (expletive)! If you have any other opinions that you think I am interested in past that point, know that I am not. If any of you involved in this thread think of any other gems that need to be discussed pertaining to this topic. Please, WRITE YOUR (EXPLETIVE’IN) CONGRESSMAN OR SHUT THE (EXPLETIVE) UP! By the way, if any of you would like to paddle this weekend, let me know Let me out of this concrete jungle, -Craig "no playboat yet" Geist

Response:

Author: admin on
Category: Discontinue Use Of Zoloft In Lewy Body Caus
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Prescription Medication Knowledge Base » Zoloft Withdrawal » environment vs heredity

environment vs heredity

Question:

Oh Blue, this is so true…. I was perfectly sane (cough cough cough) much however. I would give my life for him… With Metta & Blessings, Jehanne "It is good to have an end to journey toward; but it is the journey that matters, in the end" Ursula Le Guin

Response:

says… you know, money tends to run in families. Maybe that’s biological too, like there’s a money gene or something. ..Don’t laugh, that’s the way these researchers think. On the lighter side, did you know that having children tends to run in families? If your parents didn’t have children, chances are you won’t either.

Did you know that insanity is hereditary? You get it from your children. Bluebird oh, is *that* where it came from?

Response:

you know, money tends to run in families. Maybe that’s biological too, like there’s a money gene or something. ..Don’t laugh, that’s the way these researchers think. On the lighter side, did you know that having children tends to run in families? If your parents didn’t have children, chances are you won’t either.

doh… Leslie — Mom always told me I could be whatever I wanted to be when I grew up, "within reason." When I asked her what she meant by "within reason," she said, "You ask a lot of questions for a garbage man." – Jack Handey Visit My Website! http://www.flex.net/users/tuesday

Response:

it’s CATCHING!!!!!!!

for *real* well, i don’t suppose i’ve ever actually *driven* someone to depression, but i know it’s *really* hard to live with a depressive person, specially someone who wants to prove how unlovable they are. anna xxx

Response:

Owlgirl, Thanks for confirming something I long suspected! lol Thanks for the chuckle. Brenda

Response:

you know…both my parents (who, nb, are NOT my biologial parents) have depression and are on medication. Same with my ex-de facto, my uncle and aunt, and 3 close rl friends. I could never relate to it, but now, i’ve finally succumbed myself. aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrggggggghhhhhhhhhhh! this can only mean one thing: it’s CATCHING!!!!!!! warn all your friends and family….. owlgirl – who had a shitty aftyernoon, thanx to zoloft withdrawal, but who feels good cos you are all here, and is especially grateful for the posts from Cris/z, Eva Marisa, and kdaly. Thanx. :)

Response:

Author: admin on
Category: Zoloft Withdrawal
Tags: Zoloft Withdrawal

Prescription Medication Knowledge Base » Eessential Tremor Effexor » Botox B

Botox B

Question:

Hi Andy: It’s been a while. I am in the Bot B study too and recieved 10,000 U the 1st time and had maybe 10 days that seemed to be some improvement, but only with the tremor not the spasms. 11 weeks later, now 2 weeks ago, I recieved 12,500 U and once again, it was only a small improvement. It is kinda dissapointing! Like you, I have antibodies to A. I will be in Nashville this weekend and am looking forward to hearing some other ideas. Although, my MDS at Emory here in Atlanta, really keeps up and in discouraging the Selective Deneration procedure. One of the surgeons here is doing the Deep Brain Stimulation on Parkinson’s and essential tremor with wonderful results. I guess that is my hope! My MDS tried to find him(Dr, Jerry Vitek) today so I could talk to him about when he was going to start this procedure on Dystonia patients and we couldn’t hook up with him, so my doc is suppose to talk to him about it. Did you have any symptoms of dry mouth or difficulty swallowing after the Bot B? I did, and became very excited believing it was going to help and it did some but only a short period of time (2 weeks). Just thought I would share that with you! Take care, Kathie Nsta of GA

Response:

Dear Andy, I’m so sorry about the Botox B not working for you. As Elf already asked, I too thought that the B was made specifically for those who had antibodies for the A. I can’t know for sure how you feel, but can imagine that your hopes were very high. Again, I’m so sorry and sad that it didn’t work for you. Take Care, Gina

Response:

BOTULINUM TOXIN TYPE A Botulinum toxin type A (BOT-yoo-lye-num) is used to treat certain eye conditions, such as: Blepharospasm — A condition in which the eyelid will not stay open, because of a spasm of a muscle of the eye. Strabismus — A condition in which the eyes do not line up properly. Botulinum toxin type A is injected into the surrounding muscle or tissue of the eye, but not into the eye itself. Depending on your condition, more than one treatment may be required. This medicine is to be administered only by, or under the immediate supervision of, your doctor. It is available in the following dosage form: Parenteral-Local Injection (U.S. and Canada) Before Receiving This Medicine In deciding to receive a medicine, the risks of receiving the medicine must be weighed against the good it will do. This is a decision you and your doctor will make. For botulinum toxin type A, the following should be considered: Allergies – Tell your doctor if you have ever had any unusual or allergic reaction to botulinum toxin type A. Also tell your health care professional if you are allergic to any other substances. Pregnancy — Studies on effects in pregnancy have not been done in either humans or animals. Breast-feeding — It is not known whether botulinum toxin type A passes into the breast milk. However, this medicine has not been reported to cause problems in nursing babies. Children – Studies on this medicine have been done only in adult patients, and there is no specific information comparing use of botulinum toxin type A in children up to 12 years of age with use in other age groups. Older adults — Many medicines have not been studied specifically in older people. Therefore, it may not be known whether they work exactly the same way they do in younger adults. Although there is no specific information comparing use of botulinum toxin type A in the elderly with use in other age groups, this medicine is not expected to cause different side effects or problems in older people than it does in younger adults. Other medicines – Although certain medicines should not be used together at all, in other cases two different medicines may be used together even if an interaction might occur. In these cases, your doctor may want to change the dose, or other precautions may be necessary. Tell your health care professional if you are using any other ophthalmic prescription or nonprescription (over-the-counter [OTC]) medicine. Other medical problems – The presence of other medical problems may affect the use of botulinum toxin type A. Make sure you tell your doctor if you have any other medical problems, especially: Heart problems or other medical conditions that may worsen with rapidly increasing activity — Treatment with botulinum toxin type A may give you better vision and the desire to become more active in your daily life; this may put a strain on your heart and body. Infection with Clostridium botulinum toxin (botulism poisoning), history of — Persons with a history of infection with Clostridium botulinum toxin (botulism poisoning) may have produced antibodies that may interfere with botulinum toxin type A therapy and make it less effective. Proper Use of This Medicine Dosing — The dose of botulinum toxin type A will be different for different patients. The following information includes only the average doses of botulinum toxin type A. For injection dosage form: – For certain eye conditions: Adults and children 12 years of age and older — One or more injections into the muscles around the eyes one or more times, depending on the condition being treated. Children up to 12 years of age — Use and dose must be determined by your doctor. Precautions After Receiving This Medicine. After you have received this medicine and your vision is better, you may find that you are a lot more active than you were before. You should increase your activities slowly and carefully to allow your heart and body time to get stronger. Also, before you start any exercise program, check with your doctor. Side Effects of This Medicine. Along with its needed effects, a medicine may cause some unwanted effects. Although not all of these side effects may occur, if they do occur they may need medical attention. Check with your doctor as soon as possible if any of the following side effects occur: More common Dryness of the eye; inability to close the eyelid completely. Less common or rare. Decreased blinking; irritation of the cornea (colored portion) of the eye; turning outward or inward of the edge of the eyelid. Other side effects may occur that usually do not need medical attention. These side effects may go away as your body adjusts to the medicine. However, check with your doctor if any of the following side effects continue or are bothersome: More common Blue or purplish bruise on eyelid; drooping of the upper eyelid; eye pointing upward or downward instead of straight ahead; irritation or watering of the eye; sensitivity of the eye to light. Less common or rare. Difficulty finding the location of objects; double vision; skin rash; swelling of the eyelid skin. Other side effects not listed above may also occur in some patients. If you notice any other effects, check with your doctor.

Response:

I heard the final phase for Botox B will be in March or April and then probably a year later for FDA approval. FYI Andy

Response:

Hi Kathie, Thanks for all the info. on Botox B. I’m really interested in this, as Botox A has never really worked for me and I feel it’s even made my dystonia worse. Do you know if ‘they’ are checking out the possibility of symtems getting worse like with the ‘A’ ? Keep us posted !! Gina

Response:

Hi Everyone: Just wanted to let you know that I am in the Bot B (NeuroBloc) study here in Atlanta at Emory. I am in the dose escalation study. 1st time, I recieved 10,000units (equal to about 200units of A), for me I developed hoarseness the next day, some difficulty swallowing for about 2 weeks, and a very dry mouth-like you get with the anti-cholinergics(Artane)), I have a very active dystonic tremor more than a pulling and it helped with the tremor for about 2-3 weeks the 1st time. I didn’t recieve that much effect with the pain level though. 2nd series (12,500 unitsgiven=250 of A) was 4 weeks ago,that was 11 weeks after the 1st. I had a more positive effect this time- the tremor is more diminished, the pain is decreased and so far at 4 weeks, it is still effective. I had developed antibodies to A after 3 years, and that was in 1994 so this has been a tremendous relief to me. It seems that the dose range with the B is what they are trying to determine, also the safety factor. For me, it does not seem to help quite as much as A did for me but my dstonia has progressed in the last 3 years. It is hard to pull out of my MDS much info about other patients he is treating with the B. I have the info from the first double blind trials with B, and they were not using a large enough dose to see a lot of improvement,but there was more when they used the 10,000u (that was the highest dose they gave at Emory) so there is hope. I will keep you all updated on my progress. By the way, you can e-mail Aethna Neurosciences and they will send you info on the 1st study. You all are a great bunch of people at a.s.d., I don’t get to check the posts often but when I do I can feel the love and support through my p.c. I was in Nashville for the Symposium. It was great! By the way, everyone at the sym. was given a copy of the PSA that was done about dystonia by LA Lakers Jerry West, has anyone heard if that is being run anywhere? Much thanks to David Stein(who does the 1-800-HURTFUL calls for NSTA) he was the one who arranged the PSA. Also, thanks to Deb who posted the highlights from Nashville here-I wasn’t attentive enough to catch all of that!!! Best wishes to everyone, Kathie

Response:

Oxford (UK) is just about to start trials for Botox B. What have the results been like in USA/Canada? is it something to get excited about? Any different side effects? Thanks – Chris Usenet

If I remember right, Botox B is not quite as good as the original, but if you develop anti-bodies to the original, it is a very good option. Ray T.

Response:

Chris, I just got back from the NSTA supposium (well the 1st day that is:) and they did address Botox B (which will be marketed as "NeuroBloc") …. Some of their patients are seeing results …. ?? I don’t know personally though… Andy might be able to "share" some information with you <G I’ll let him "tell ya". Elf in Tn…Romona – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Oxford (UK) is just about to start trials for Botox B. What have the results been like in USA/Canada? is it something to get excited about? Any different side effects? Thanks – Chris

Response:

Oxford (UK) is just about to start trials for Botox B. What have the results been like in USA/Canada? is it something to get excited about? Any different side effects? Thanks – Chris

Response:

Hi gang, It has been awhile since I posted. No luck with Botox B for me.

Sorry to read this, Andy. I hadn’t heard from you for a while and figured everything was okay. You mentioned stress. I found stress was "the great exacerbater" of muscle spasms, so much so, that I had to stop working. I am an accountant by profession. On a few occasions, I thought of returning back to work and, every time, memories of what it was like at the office made me turn into a cold sweat. Dystonia made my life miserable, I think that at one point, at least this is what a psychologist mentioned, there was a danger of suicide. Living this way, in constant pain, and the pressures at work, was too much. Sorry for bringing this up, but if there are any out there who feel this way, and feel guilty about having second thoughts regarding their careers, my advice to you is don’t feel this way. Dystonia is a serious syndrome, don’t let anyone tell you differently. Regarding Phenol, I think you may find what you are looking for at: http://www.rehabnet.com/monographs/nblock.htm Regards, Gene http://personal.nbnet.nb.ca/ev or http://personal.nbnet.nb.ca/ev/index.html

Response:

I am going to try to beat Tommye to this one, Teresa! What are facets? Do they fasten your ribs to the rest of you? Do they hook your knees to your legs? I do not think I have any facets, could be my problem–LOL–Sue

Response:

Hi gang, It has been awhile since I posted. No luck with Botox B for me. I tried it twice and the second time getting the maxium allowed under the study. I have heard that it has helped other ST’ers. So, that is good! I am trying Mexiletane now to see if this helps. I don’t know if Botox B is not working becuase of the stress I am under (work, personnal) or that I have antibodies to Botox A and still have them for Botox B. Stress is killing me. I hope I can relax a little in 98. Will see. Doctor thinks antibodies… Lucky me. Just thought I would keep you posted. New: Well my doctor is going to start his own study with Phenol (don’t know about this just like ITX which no one is trying yet) because it destorys the nerves to the muscles (they way I understand it). It may be good for some people but me I don’t want to destory nothing at this time. Also, he wants to try some of the new Parkinsons medication approved by FDA as well. Will keep you posted. Andy

Response:

(APENFAN) writes: It has been awhile since I posted. No luck with Botox B for me. I tried it

twice and the second time getting the maxium allowed under the study. Andy! We have missed you! So glad you are back with us, although the botox debacle is a bummer! Post again, okay? Love, Mary Beth

Response:

Stress and dystonia is wierd for me. There are times when, under great stress, that my spasms are not any worse at all; then at other times, with the same level of stress, by spasms go bozonkers! Take care- Gina

Odd, isn’t it? What works for one, won’t for another. Stress, as you say, exacerbates "at times". It’s as if dystonia is responding to exterior forces, and what it is I haven’t got a clue. Dr. Joseph Tsui, in conversation with Professor Eugene Smith, discussed this delema. Here is how it went: If dystonia symptoms originate because of a problem in the brain, have you neurologists studied the brain enough to know what’s really going on there? Attempts have been done. This is a conditiontion of motor control and therefore lots of programs in motor control are involved with that. There have been recent publications on the use of PET scans–PET meaning positro emission tomography –in writer’s cramp, for example. When you activate certain movements, the certain areas of the brain can light up. They pick up some very subtle abnormalities–that is, a little deviating compared with the normal. But all these are so embryonic in their development that they are so difficult to interprets. We don’t even have a good pattern for normal. What we understand currently I can only put into a very simple example. The basal ganglia is likened to something like a computer–a computer chip. To simplify it, it seems to contain all the complex movement patterns of the body and store them in terms of programs. These programs are stored there when we’re young. You learn certain complex movements. You learn to play a piano and when you’re young the basal ganglia is a very plastic structure. It accepts all sorts of programming, but once the programs are there, and as one grows older, this plasticity is lost. That is, you learn things with much more difficulty when you are getting older. These programs are interconnected with each other, executing through the cortex so we can do several things at the same time. I can talk to you, but I can also get my hand and play around with it without even thinking about it. Then I am just pulling on a few switches. These are all activated like computer switches. But in dystonia some of these programs go wrong, particularly in focal dystonia. In writer’s cramp, for example, the writing program goes wrong, but the hand is completely normal doing any other things. When you want to flip on the switch of writing, it starts going crazy. The interesting issue is that there are at least two writing programs–one using the wrist and fingers, the other by using more proximal shoulder movements. Now most patients with writer’s cramp when they write have problems, but when they use chalk to write on a blackboard, they all right. They can write perfectly well. So all this helps us to understand that it is actually much more complex than a computer–that there are motor-programming problems within the basal ganglia, and, if something goes wrong there, the action will be abnormal. That area also governs the normal posture of different parts of the body, so if that program goes wrong and it decides that the neck should be twisted, then unfortunately the brain would have to listen to this program. So we believe that it is probably a biochemical abnormality, but even that conclusion is standing on shaky grounds. Because right now if you believe in the connections, maybe the biochemical substance there is correct but the connections are wrong. but the theory about this biochemical imbalance is that, in some patients with dystonia, you can improve the dystonia by giving them therapeutic agents like anti-cholinergic drugs, and therefore we think that it may be a biochemical imbalance. But unfortunately not all patients respond to the same drugs. A well-known example is that –if you know the transmitter called dopamine for Parkinson’s disease–some patients respond very well to dopamine, that is, a drug that enhances dopamine. But some other patients respond to drugs that oppose dopamine, and so we are completely at a loss. We are confused. Drugs that work in totally different directions can be beneficial in one patient and vice versa in another patient, and it is only dopamine. The we come to talk about cholinergic substances. People have been using anti-cholinergic drugs, and there has been a report on cholinergic substances–that is again a different direction–that work well in the same kind of illness. The more convincing issue is that some patients with neck dystonia can come with a history that initially the head turns to the left and after a while turns to the right. So we don’t really know what everything means. In writer’s cramp, for example, some patients will start off having problems with the right hand, then shift to the use of the left hand to write. A small proportion of these patients actually after years develop the same problem in the other hand. This also helps to support the fact that it may be a central problem rather than a more peripheral problem. the theories are not very well founded. It could be a biochemical imbalance, but I suspect that in some patients, particularly in specific problems, it may be something more subtle than a biochemical imbalance. Well, if you don’t know what causes dystonia, or if it has more than one possible cause, how can you treat it? Or do you sometimes have to say, "You will just have to live with it"? Anything short of knowledge of the underlying cause we really cannot provide a cure for the condition. Symptomatic treatments for the condition with all the medications have been very unsatisfactory. Most patients get temporary relief but the side-effects are so bad that most of them would finally give up the medications, and therefore it is not good at all. Although it is not a cure, botulinum toxin provides a very good symptomatic relief for many patients. It has provided at least some hope and also given the doctors something to do to help the patient. And that actually significantly improved the awareness of the condition. Lots of research has been done, and the funding agencies have paid more attention to funding research in dystonia. Botulism: the first reported case was in 1897. The word comes from the Latin word for sausages-food poisoning from sausages, bad sausage. Two types of neurotoxins have been identified initially-type A and type B neurotoxin. More and more protein types of the toxin have been found-to 1970 up to 7 types described: A, B, C, D, E, F, G (C further subdivided into I and 2). In 1924 the bacterium was finally given a name, clostridium botulinum. All neurotoxins are inactivated by boiling, and only A, B, E, F have been shown to give rise to human clinical botulism. Only type A has been a marketed drug, though type F was recently investigated and shown to be effective in patients who have grown resistant to type A; the duration of effectiveness was much shorter weeks rather than months. Type B toxin is currently being investigated in a multi-center study. What the toxin does in the body is to go to a junction between nerves and muscles, and it blocks the impulses between nerves and muscles. Normally what happens is that, when you want the arm to move or want to contract a certain muscle of the arm, your brain sets off an electrical impulse that is conducted by a nerve like a piece of wire right down to the junction between the nerve and the muscle. But it is not electricity that goes through to the muscle. At the end of the nerve it releases a chemical, and that chemical goes on to tell the muscle to contract. Botulinum toxin actually stops this process. It prevents the release of this chemical from the nerve endings and as a result it gives rise to paralysis or weakness of the muscle, depending on the dose. The toxin attaches itself to the nerve terminals; it is something like ingested by the nerve terminal and then within the nerve cell it exerts its action to prevent the release of the substance called acetylcholine. About the history of the toxin I think full credit has to be given to Alan Scott, who collaborated with the bacteriologist Edward Shantz. They worked together in the development of the toxin. Alan Scott is an ophthalmologist in San Francisco. He had been always longing to develop a method to replace surgery to treat a condition called strabismus, which is a condition of crossed eyes in children. In these children the eyes actually look in different directions, and the way to help them is to cut away one muscle that pulls the eye to one side and therefore the eyes can be restored to look straight ahead. This procedure, he thought, might be replaced by an injection of a substance which could temporarily weaken the muscle. As the child growsup, the condition may be self-correcting, so if they are left with a normal muscle they probably will end up better. He had been working on that, and in 1973 in a publication we found out that this botullnum toxin A had been able to do that. That is, the substance is quite safe. It does not produce any generalized bad reactions. It does not produce any local reactions, and it can also give rise to a rather predictable weakness for a period of time, ranging from several months up to eight months in the monkey. With that he worked on to actually apply it in the human, and in 1980 he made the first publication of its use as an alternative to surgery in children, and he was quite successful with that. The story would have just ended there, but there’s another condition called blepharospasm. This condition, now classified as a neurological condition, is a focal dystonia. But because the symptoms occur in the eyelids, most patients go to see eye doctors because the eyes are

Response:

Andy, I’m so sorry that Botox just doesn’t work for you!!! I’d really do some major research before I go the "phenol route"–but if you pain is bad enough, you will get to the point you will try anything, but Let’s just hope and pray that it doesn’t get that bad!! I’m here if you need a shoulder…you know, sometimes we all do. Keep us informed on yourself, please. Love Ya, Tommye – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Andy, Long time no hear from kiddo …. I’m so sorry to hear about the second round of Botox B (max dose) not working….:::major sad face::: Phenol … I’ve read about that … Gene sent a post with url(s) a few months ago …. hum ..guess I need to go back and re-read it. I knew that it could cause "damage" … but a niggling of memory is there …isn’t he phenol a effective treatment in managing some of the symptoms … ????? Good luck at the next dr.s appt … keep us updated on how everything is going …the good, bad and duckly(opps that wouldn’t apply since your with Dr.B:) …many hugs and lots of love from all the "elves" here in TN…Romona

Response:

Andy, Long time no hear from kiddo …. I’m so sorry to hear about the second round of Botox B (max dose) not working….:::major sad face::: Phenol … I’ve read about that … Gene sent a post with url(s) a few months ago …. hum ..guess I need to go back and re-read it. I knew that it could cause "damage" … but a niggling of memory is there …isn’t he phenol a effective treatment in managing some of the symptoms … ????? Good luck at the next dr.s appt … keep us updated on how everything is going …the good, bad and duckly(opps that wouldn’t apply since your with Dr.B:) …many hugs and lots of love from all the "elves" here in TN…Romona

Response:

Gang, I had to add my 2 cents worth on this one-lol. I, as everyone else have tried conventional and other medicine. I had the facets in my upper lumbar spine fractured (I believe by chiropractor) years ago. I worked for and was also treated by a Pain Specialist last year. He used Phenol on the nerves going to the facets. I STILL HAVE NO PAIN THERE!!!!!!! I had some weird reaction in my knee and leg muscles on that side for a day or two – did not last long – no other problems. You might want to consider giving it a try. If I had that choice, with my limited experience and success – I would try it. Teresa

Response:

Wow Gene!! What an excellent response – Thank You!! Gina – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Stress and dystonia is wierd for me. There are times when, under great stress, that my spasms are not any worse at all; then at other times, with the same level of stress, by spasms go bozonkers! Take care- Gina Odd, isn’t it? What works for one, won’t for another. Stress, as you say, exacerbates "at times". It’s as if dystonia is responding to exterior forces, and what it is I haven’t got a clue. Dr. Joseph Tsui, in conversation with Professor Eugene Smith, discussed this delema. Here is how it went: If dystonia symptoms originate because of a problem in the brain, have you neurologists studied the brain enough to know what’s really going on there? Attempts have been done. This is a conditiontion of motor control and therefore lots of programs in motor control are involved with that. There have been recent publications on the use of PET scans–PET meaning positro emission tomography –in writer’s cramp, for example. When you activate certain movements, the certain areas of the brain can light up. They pick up some very subtle abnormalities–that is, a little deviating compared with the normal. But all these are so embryonic in their development that they are so difficult to interprets. We don’t even have a good pattern for normal. What we understand currently I can only put into a very simple example. The basal ganglia is likened to something like a computer–a computer chip. To simplify it, it seems to contain all the complex movement patterns of the body and store them in terms of programs. These programs are stored there when we’re young. You learn certain complex movements. You learn to play a piano and when you’re young the basal ganglia is a very plastic structure. It accepts all sorts of programming, but once the programs are there, and as one grows older, this plasticity is lost. That is, you learn things with much more difficulty when you are getting older. These programs are interconnected with each other, executing through the cortex so we can do several things at the same time. I can talk to you, but I can also get my hand and play around with it without even thinking about it. Then I am just pulling on a few switches. These are all activated like computer switches. But in dystonia some of these programs go wrong, particularly in focal dystonia. In writer’s cramp, for example, the writing program goes wrong, but the hand is completely normal doing any other things. When you want to flip on the switch of writing, it starts going crazy. The interesting issue is that there are at least two writing programs–one using the wrist and fingers, the other by using more proximal shoulder movements. Now most patients with writer’s cramp when they write have problems, but when they use chalk to write on a blackboard, they all right. They can write perfectly well. So all this helps us to understand that it is actually much more complex than a computer–that there are motor-programming problems within the basal ganglia, and, if something goes wrong there, the action will be abnormal. That area also governs the normal posture of different parts of the body, so if that program goes wrong and it decides that the neck should be twisted, then unfortunately the brain would have to listen to this program. So we believe that it is probably a biochemical abnormality, but even that conclusion is standing on shaky grounds. Because right now if you believe in the connections, maybe the biochemical substance there is correct but the connections are wrong. but the theory about this biochemical imbalance is that, in some patients with dystonia, you can improve the dystonia by giving them therapeutic agents like anti-cholinergic drugs, and therefore we think that it may be a biochemical imbalance. But unfortunately not all patients respond to the same drugs. A well-known example is that –if you know the transmitter called dopamine for Parkinson’s disease–some patients respond very well to dopamine, that is, a drug that enhances dopamine. But some other patients respond to drugs that oppose dopamine, and so we are completely at a loss. We are confused. Drugs that work in totally different directions can be beneficial in one patient and vice versa in another patient, and it is only dopamine. The we come to talk about cholinergic substances. People have been using anti-cholinergic drugs, and there has been a report on cholinergic substances–that is again a different direction–that work well in the same kind of illness. The more convincing issue is that some patients with neck dystonia can come with a history that initially the head turns to the left and after a while turns to the right. So we don’t really know what everything means. In writer’s cramp, for example, some patients will start off having problems with the right hand, then shift to the use of the left hand to write. A small proportion of these patients actually after years develop the same problem in the other hand. This also helps to support the fact that it may be a central problem rather than a more peripheral problem. the theories are not very well founded. It could be a biochemical imbalance, but I suspect that in some patients, particularly in specific problems, it may be something more subtle than a biochemical imbalance. Well, if you don’t know what causes dystonia, or if it has more than one possible cause, how can you treat it? Or do you sometimes have to say, "You will just have to live with it"? Anything short of knowledge of the underlying cause we really cannot provide a cure for the condition. Symptomatic treatments for the condition with all the medications have been very unsatisfactory. Most patients get temporary relief but the side-effects are so bad that most of them would finally give up the medications, and therefore it is not good at all. Although it is not a cure, botulinum toxin provides a very good symptomatic relief for many patients. It has provided at least some hope and also given the doctors something to do to help the patient. And that actually significantly improved the awareness of the condition. Lots of research has been done, and the funding agencies have paid more attention to funding research in dystonia. Botulism: the first reported case was in 1897. The word comes from the Latin word for sausages-food poisoning from sausages, bad sausage. Two types of neurotoxins have been identified initially-type A and type B neurotoxin. More and more protein types of the toxin have been found-to 1970 up to 7 types described: A, B, C, D, E, F, G (C further subdivided into I and 2). In 1924 the bacterium was finally given a name, clostridium botulinum. All neurotoxins are inactivated by boiling, and only A, B, E, F have been shown to give rise to human clinical botulism. Only type A has been a marketed drug, though type F was recently investigated and shown to be effective in patients who have grown resistant to type A; the duration of effectiveness was much shorter weeks rather than months. Type B toxin is currently being investigated in a multi-center study. What the toxin does in the body is to go to a junction between nerves and muscles, and it blocks the impulses between nerves and muscles. Normally what happens is that, when you want the arm to move or want to contract a certain muscle of the arm, your brain sets off an electrical impulse that is conducted by a nerve like a piece of wire right down to the junction between the nerve and the muscle. But it is not electricity that goes through to the muscle. At the end of the nerve it releases a chemical, and that chemical goes on to tell the muscle to contract. Botulinum toxin actually stops this process. It prevents the release of this chemical from the nerve endings and as a result it gives rise to paralysis or weakness of the muscle, depending on the dose. The toxin attaches itself to the nerve terminals; it is something like ingested by the nerve terminal and then within the nerve cell it exerts its action to prevent the release of the substance called acetylcholine. About the history of the toxin I think full credit has to be given to Alan Scott, who collaborated with the bacteriologist Edward Shantz. They worked together in the development of the toxin. Alan Scott is an ophthalmologist in San Francisco. He had been always longing to develop a method to replace surgery to treat a condition called strabismus, which is a condition of crossed eyes in children. In these children the eyes actually look in different directions, and the way to help them is to cut away one muscle that pulls the eye to one side and therefore the eyes can be restored to look straight ahead. This procedure, he thought, might be replaced by an injection of a substance which could temporarily weaken the muscle. As the child growsup, the condition may be self-correcting, so if they are left with a normal muscle they probably will end up better. He had been working on that, and in 1973 in a publication we found out that this botullnum toxin A had been able to do that. That is, the substance is quite safe. It does not produce any generalized bad reactions. It does not produce any local reactions, and it can also give rise to a rather predictable weakness for a period of time, ranging from several months up to eight months in the monkey. With that he worked on to actually apply it in the human, and in 1980 he made the

Response:

(GGMCJP) writes: Stress and dystonia is wierd for me. There are times when, under great stress,

that my spasms are not any worse at all; then at other times, with the same

level of stress, by spasms go bozonkers! Take care- Gina I am also that way. There have been moments when people would of thought I’d be jerking/spasms really bad and I’m cool. Then something else comes up and wammo. Thats the problem you just never know for sure. And, at times I can’t recall anything in particular happening and wammo! Where not boring, thats for sure! Anne

Response:

Hi Teresa, Do you happen to know ‘off hand’ if a person would qualify if they (me) are receiving a ‘widows pension’? Even though I’ve remarried, I still receive this income from my late husband’s place of employment. I worked for over 20 years, but haven’ worked in the last 4 years. Just curious, but probably need to contact my local SSD office. Thanks in advance, should you have any info on this! Gina – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Mary Beth, You cannot be working at all to apply and get SSI and SSD. However, once you get it you can get up $499.99 per month working part-time. So whatever you do, file before you go back to work. That is what I am going to try to do. If I finally get it, work part time, if I can. Teresa

Response:

MB your SSD is Social Security Disability that you will be entitled to from so many quarters you’ve worked (nothing to do with income) but, SSI, depends on income–Jimmy and I together make too much so I can’t get it. When I get 65 yrs old, My SSD will just turn into Social Security and my employer disability insurance stops completely and retirement starts. If you aren’t sure, you might better start out part-time—-full-time is very hard if you’re in a lot of pain especially–or, you may just not have the energy to work full time. Something to think about, though. My MDS says that I’ll never work again, even though I already knew it. Love Ya, Tommye – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Mary Beth, I’d think that starting out part time would be a good idea. If you’re doing well, you can always increase your hours, days and workload. It’s much more difficult to begin with full time work and then have to cut back. Also, IMO I think this might be a less stressful approach. Take care = Gina Please excuse some ‘outloud’ processing here, my friends…but does all this posting regarding how difficult working full-time can be, mean that I maybe need to reconsider my stubborn determination to return to working full-time after 8 years of ‘freedom’? Maybe I should consider part-time? If it were true, and I am NOT admitting to that, I can no longer maintain the stamina of working, would I be able to qualify for SSD or SSI or does one have to be without resources in order to do this? I can’t believe that I am actually writing this and sending it even…OY! MB Gene, before I quit work, it was almost too much for me, too!! I really worked longer than I should have tried to-was in constant horrible pain, having to take pain med in order to even work and getting reprimanded for taking med at work. I gave it up (work) at 2:30 on a Mon afternoon-I finally just broke down and knew that I couldn’t go any farther…..then, my supervisor called me that night to see how I was doing and if I thought I’d be at work the next morning. LOL then, I told her that I wasn’t coming back that I had finally give up—that was a terrible feeling, but, yes, stress plays a major role in dystonia!!!

Response:

Mary Beth, You cannot be working at all to apply and get SSI and SSD. However, once you get it you can get up $499.99 per month working part-time. So whatever you do, file before you go back to work. That is what I am going to try to do. If I finally get it, work part time, if I can. Teresa

Response:

Yes, Yes, Gene, we will win this war against dystonia!!! The only way that we can and are even supposed to live is one day at a time and hope and pray for a cure—if not in our generation, then, the next one for sure!! but, I’m looking for it to happen in our generation, aren’t you??? Love Ya, Tommye – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Gene, before I quit work, it was almost too much for me, too!! I really worked longer than I should have tried to-was in constant horrible pain, having to take pain med in order to even work and getting reprimanded for taking med at work. I gave it up (work) at 2:30 on a Mon afternoon-I finally just broke down and knew that I couldn’t go any farther…..then, my supervisor called me that night to see how I was doing and if I thought I’d be at work the next morning. LOL then, I told her that I wasn’t coming back that I had finally give up—that was a terrible feeling, but, yes, stress plays a major role in dystonia!!! Love Ya, Tommye Having read the above, it brought back so many memories. Strange how we squirrel away bad moments! It seems to over shadow all good recollections. I was listening to a scientist philosopher type talk about the mind yesterday. And, he made reference to the very subject. According to him, it seems that the moment we are born, it’s downhill from there because there are so many diseases, and potential for accidents, etc. It’s as if all the odds were against us. But, it says something about the human spirit doesn’t it? People with dystonia are survivors. We will win this war, even though many battles have been lost, in the end, we will win. The trick is to never give up, there is always another day ahead, and it might just be the day that a cure is discovered. Gene http://personal.nbnet.nb.ca/ev or http://personal.nbnet.nb.ca/ev/index.html

Response:

Hey Tommye Girl!! Did I miss something here? Gina – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – OK "Miss SuzyQ", you beat me to it this time, but have you found out yet what are "facets"?? ROFLOL If I have any, mine must not be working, either!! LOL couldn’t be "faucets" could it?? I’ve got many of those!! Harry and Charlie!!! (ref: Ralph and Louie) LOL Love Ya, Tommye I am going to try to beat Tommye to this one, Teresa! What are facets? Do they fasten your ribs to the rest of you? Do they hook your knees to your legs? I do not think I have any facets, could be my problem–LOL–Sue

Response:

Gene, You are just a fountain of information – don’t know what we’d do without you! Thanks for all the website(s) information on just about everything. Gina Hi Dan, So sorry about the Botox B not working. This is just so frustrating! I’m sorry to ask this if you’ve already posted about it, but have you tried the new batch of Botox A? I’ve been ‘botoxed’ with the old A and found it to be pretty useless for me. But (for me) this new batch of ‘A’ is just so awesome! I hope there are others out there who have seen good results with the new A, and others yet, who will try it. Stress and dystonia is wierd for me. There are times when, under great stress, that my spasms are not any worse at all; then at other times, with the same level of stress, by spasms go bozonkers! Take care- Gina – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi gang, It has been awhile since I posted. No luck with Botox B for me. Sorry to read this, Andy. I hadn’t heard from you for a while and figured everything was okay. You mentioned stress. I found stress was "the great exacerbater" of muscle spasms, so much so, that I had to stop working. I am an accountant by profession. On a few occasions, I thought of returning back to work and, every time, memories of what it was like at the office made me turn into a cold sweat. Dystonia made my life miserable, I think that at one point, at least this is what a psychologist mentioned, there was a danger of suicide. Living this way, in constant pain, and the pressures at work, was too much. Sorry for bringing this up, but if there are any out there who feel this way, and feel guilty about having second thoughts regarding their careers, my advice to you is don’t feel this way. Dystonia is a serious syndrome, don’t let anyone tell you differently. Regarding Phenol, I think you may find what you are looking for at: http://www.rehabnet.com/monographs/nblock.htm Regards, Gene http://personal.nbnet.nb.ca/ev or http://personal.nbnet.nb.ca/ev/index.html

Response:

Teresa, thanks for the information…. I swear I had never heard of such a thing but I bet mine are beauts in my neck! Sue

Response:

Gene, before I quit work, it was almost too much for me, too!! I really worked longer than I should have tried to-was in constant horrible pain, having to take pain med in order to even work and getting reprimanded for taking med at work. I gave it up (work) at 2:30 on a Mon afternoon-I finally just broke down and knew that I couldn’t go any farther…..then, my supervisor called me that night to see how I was doing and if I thought I’d be at work the next morning. LOL then, I told her that I wasn’t coming back that I had finally give up—that was a terrible feeling, but, yes, stress plays a major role in dystonia!!! Love Ya, Tommye

Having read the above, it brought back so many memories. Strange how we squirrel away bad moments! It seems to over shadow all good recollections. I was listening to a scientist philosopher type talk about the mind yesterday. And, he made reference to the very subject. According to him, it seems that the moment we are born, it’s downhill from there because there are so many diseases, and potential for accidents, etc. It’s as if all the odds were against us. But, it says something about the human spirit doesn’t it? People with dystonia are survivors. We will win this war, even though many battles have been lost, in the end, we will win. The trick is to never give up, there is always another day ahead, and it might just be the day that a cure is discovered. Gene http://personal.nbnet.nb.ca/ev or http://personal.nbnet.nb.ca/ev/index.html

Response:

Please excuse some ‘outloud’ processing here, my friends…but does all this posting regarding how difficult working full-time can be, mean that I maybe need to reconsider my stubborn determination to return to working full-time after 8 years of ‘freedom’? Maybe I should consider part-time? If it were true, and I am NOT admitting to that, I can no longer maintain the stamina of working, would I be able to qualify for SSD or SSI or does one have to be without resources in order to do this? I can’t believe that I am actually writing this and sending it even…OY! MB Gene, before I quit work, it was almost too much for me, too!! I really

worked longer than I should have tried to-was in constant horrible pain,

having to take pain med in order to even work and getting reprimanded for

taking med at work. I gave it up (work) at 2:30 on a Mon afternoon-I

finally just broke down and knew that I couldn’t go any farther…..then,

my supervisor called me that night to see how I was doing and if I thought

I’d be at work the next morning. LOL then, I told her that I wasn’t coming

back that I had finally give up—that was a terrible feeling, but, yes,

stress plays a major role in dystonia!!!

Response:

OK "Miss SuzyQ", you beat me to it this time, but have you found out yet what are "facets"?? ROFLOL If I have any, mine must not be working, either!! LOL couldn’t be "faucets" could it?? I’ve got many of those!! Harry and Charlie!!! (ref: Ralph and Louie) LOL Love Ya, Tommye – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am going to try to beat Tommye to this one, Teresa! What are facets? Do they fasten your ribs to the rest of you? Do they hook your knees to your legs? I do not think I have any facets, could be my problem–LOL–Sue

Response:

Hi, I’m sorry that you had to quit work today. I was diagnosed with Dystonia July 1996 and was terminated by my employer in September 1997 because I was unable to perform by duties. The pain is so bad not to mention the embarrassment. I wish you lots of luck. Have you applied for disability?

Response:

Wasn’t it also a major relief to finally say "Enough"? Gina – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Gene, before I quit work, it was almost too much for me, too!! I really worked longer than I should have tried to-was in constant horrible pain, having to take pain med in order to even work and getting reprimanded for taking med at work. I gave it up (work) at 2:30 on a Mon afternoon-I finally just broke down and knew that I couldn’t go any farther…..then, my supervisor called me that night to see how I was doing and if I thought I’d be at work the next morning. LOL then, I told her that I wasn’t coming back that I had finally give up—that was a terrible feeling, but, yes, stress plays a major role in dystonia!!! Love Ya, Tommye Hi gang, It has been awhile since I posted. No luck with Botox B for me. Sorry to read this, Andy. I hadn’t heard from you for a while and figured everything was okay. You mentioned stress. I found stress was "the great exacerbater" of muscle spasms, so much so, that I had to stop working. I am an accountant by profession. On a few occasions, I thought of returning back to work and, every time, memories of what it was like at the office made me turn into a cold sweat. Dystonia made my life miserable, I think that at one point, at least this is what a psychologist mentioned, there was a danger of suicide. Living this way, in constant pain, and the pressures at work, was too much. Sorry for bringing this up, but if there are any out there who feel this way, and feel guilty about having second thoughts regarding their careers, my advice to you is don’t feel this way. Dystonia is a serious syndrome, don’t let anyone tell you differently. Regarding Phenol, I think you may find what you are looking for at: http://www.rehabnet.com/monographs/nblock.htm Regards, Gene http://personal.nbnet.nb.ca/ev or http://personal.nbnet.nb.ca/ev/index.html

Response:

Yes, Gina, goma doll, it surely was!! the next day I started paperwork for my employee disability, as my district supervisor came to my house and brought all of the paperwork, we filled everything out, and it was just final–so fast!! then I got pay for short term disability, built up sick days and 3 weeks vacation!! and was able to keep my hospital ins. until I’m 65 by paying it myself and they were real great….they let me keep $10,000 of $80,000 life insurance that I had. Of course, they still have my retirement, I’m considering getting out and putting into something else because if I didn’t, Jimmy will only get half of it, if I don’t get it out!! It was a wonderful releif to know that I wouldn’t have to sit there 8-9 hrs a day with my head down all day–at about 2:00 every afternoon, the pain was horrible from then on the rest of the day. Love Ya, Tommye – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Wasn’t it also a major relief to finally say "Enough"? Gina Gene, before I quit work, it was almost too much for me, too!! I really worked longer than I should have tried to-was in constant horrible pain, having to take pain med in order to even work and getting reprimanded for taking med at work. I gave it up (work) at 2:30 on a Mon afternoon-I finally just broke down and knew that I couldn’t go any farther…..then, my supervisor called me that night to see how I was doing and if I thought I’d be at work the next morning. LOL then, I told her that I wasn’t coming back that I had finally give up—that was a terrible feeling, but, yes, stress plays a major role in dystonia!!! Love Ya, Tommye Hi gang, It has been awhile since I posted. No luck with Botox B for me. Sorry to read this, Andy. I hadn’t heard from you for a while and figured everything was okay. You mentioned stress. I found stress was "the great exacerbater" of muscle spasms, so much so, that I had to stop working. I am an accountant by profession. On a few occasions, I thought of returning back to work and, every time, memories of what it was like at the office made me turn into a cold sweat. Dystonia made my life miserable, I think that at one point, at least this is what a psychologist mentioned, there was a danger of suicide. Living this way, in constant pain, and the pressures at work, was too much. Sorry for bringing this up, but if there are any out there who feel this way, and feel guilty about having second thoughts regarding their careers, my advice to you is don’t feel this way. Dystonia is a serious syndrome, don’t let anyone tell you differently. Regarding Phenol, I think you may find what you are looking for at: http://www.rehabnet.com/monographs/nblock.htm Regards, Gene http://personal.nbnet.nb.ca/ev or http://personal.nbnet.nb.ca/ev/index.html

Response:

Well, I thought if Ralph is "right" and Louie is "left" then, Charlie would be "cold water" and Harry would be "hot water"–LOL make any sense??? thought not, as I’m on one of my crazy "modes"!!! Love Ya, Tommye – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey Tommye Girl!! Did I miss something here? Gina OK "Miss SuzyQ", you beat me to it this time, but have you found out yet what are "facets"?? ROFLOL If I have any, mine must not be working, either!! LOL couldn’t be "faucets" could it?? I’ve got many of those!! Harry and Charlie!!! (ref: Ralph and Louie) LOL Love Ya, Tommye I am going to try to beat Tommye to this one, Teresa! What are facets? Do they fasten your ribs to the rest of you? Do they hook your knees to your legs? I do not think I have any facets, could be my problem–LOL–Sue

Response:

Mary Beth, I’d think that starting out part time would be a good idea. If you’re doing well, you can always increase your hours, days and workload. It’s much more difficult to begin with full time work and then have to cut back. Also, IMO I think this might be a less stressful approach. Take care = Gina – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Please excuse some ‘outloud’ processing here, my friends…but does all this posting regarding how difficult working full-time can be, mean that I maybe need to reconsider my stubborn determination to return to working full-time after 8 years of ‘freedom’? Maybe I should consider part-time? If it were true, and I am NOT admitting to that, I can no longer maintain the stamina of working, would I be able to qualify for SSD or SSI or does one have to be without resources in order to do this? I can’t believe that I am actually writing this and sending it even…OY! MB Gene, before I quit work, it was almost too much for me, too!! I really worked longer than I should have tried to-was in constant horrible pain, having to take pain med in order to even work and getting reprimanded for taking med at work. I gave it up (work) at 2:30 on a Mon afternoon-I finally just broke down and knew that I couldn’t go any farther…..then, my supervisor called me that night to see how I was doing and if I thought I’d be at work the next morning. LOL then, I told her that I wasn’t coming back that I had finally give up—that was a terrible feeling, but, yes, stress plays a major role in dystonia!!!

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Article: 8240 of alt.support.dystonia Path: betanews.compulink.co.uk!news.cix.co.uk!not-for-mail Newsgroups: alt.support.dystonia Organization: CIX – Compulink Information eXchange Lines: 5 NNTP-Posting-Host: oare.compulink.co.uk Xref: betanews.compulink.co.uk alt.support.dystonia:8240 Just re-joined this conference after a break. My son has been told that he will be part of a trial of Botox B in the UK, having become immune to Botox A. What is the current opinion about the effectiveness of Botox B? Barry

Anyone suggest where I should look to find more about Botox B please? Barry

Response:

Just re-joined this conference after a break. My son has been told that he will be part of a trial of Botox B in the UK, having become immune to Botox A. What is the current opinion about the effectiveness of Botox B? Barry

Response:

I had Bot B injx last month. I, too, was more sore than with Botox A. I think there is a lot more of the Bot B solution that has to be injected so this may explain part of it. Also, seems like they missed a muscle and hit my salivary gland, as I’ve had almost no saliva since the toxin kicked in. They called it a "side effect". Oh, well. Given this torture, its still worth it so far. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I wrote a message about Myobloc, but maybe its the wrong name. I just got the new Botox injections. I am really sore and having strange feelings. Wondered how anyone else felt. I have read many posts of people trying the Myobloc and none of them seems satisfied with it yet. Can’t help but wonder if the doctors should have experimented a little more with it. Hope you soon start to feel better. Good luck, Anna

Response:

I have had the same problem after injections in my neck ,side effects of Botox …during about one week and it was finished . Eat and drink in the same time , not very polite ,but we have to survive ! marie:) LaBeeJay a

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