Question:

Has anyone ordered from here? I am instrested in the Kramer that is $179 (I forgot the model and am to lazy to load up the browser I has 2 "quad rail" humbukers and 1 double rail humbuker in the middle. Also comes with a Floyd Rose tremolo and some kick ass tuners. So, any good? Or has anyone ordered from their yet? Thanks Nicola

I’m interested too… it’d be nice to have a backup guitar with a floyd for gigs if my JEM breaks a string… *sigh* why can’t I be endorsed for JEMs?   Hehehe…  Where is the company located?  *crosses fingers* please say Canada… -=Devon Lougheed=- "if politics is the blind leading the blind, entertainment is the f**ked up leading the hypnotised" to reply remove NOSPAM from email adress

Response:

I bought the same guitar your looking at. I love it! Right now I own two Les Pauls, a JB player PRS copy, and a Cort Flying V. This guitar doesn’t sound like any of them. The sound is close to a Jackson or Ibanez but a little beefier. I play mainly hard rock in the vain of Ratt and it does great for what I need it for. I haven’t played out with it yet but I’ve recorded with it and it did great!! No Noise. I have a Line 6 Flextone 300 watt head through a Peavy 412e cab. So just about any guitar would sound great to me!! It will depend a lot on what type of setup you have and what style of music you play. The guitar stays in tune providing you have it setup correctly. It seems like it will hold up against the test of a musicians time!! My experience with music yo was very good. I placed my order and got a receipt number right away, then a thank you for your order the next day as well as a confirmation of shipment with a UPS tracking number. It was here in 6 days. These Krammers are made by Gibson and are shipped from the Gibson factory in Nash. Tenn. You can email Gibson for more info on the Krammer line. (since they are real quite about it online) Visit www.gibson.com Good Luck Laura

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Has anyone ordered from here? I am instrested in the Kramer that is $179 (I forgot the model and am to lazy to load up the browser I has 2 "quad rail" humbukers and 1 double rail humbuker in the middle. Also comes with a Floyd Rose tremolo and some kick ass tuners. So, any good? Or has anyone ordered from their yet? Thanks Nicola

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I bought the same guitar your looking at. I love it! Right now I own two Les Pauls, a JB player PRS copy, and a Cort Flying V. This guitar doesn’t sound like any of them. The sound is close to a Jackson or Ibanez but a little beefier. I play mainly hard rock in the vain of Ratt and it does great for what I need it for. I haven’t played out with it yet but I’ve recorded with it and it did great!! No Noise. I have a Line 6 Flextone 300 watt head through a Peavy 412e cab. So just about any guitar would sound great to me!! It will depend a lot on what type of setup you have and what style of music you play. The guitar stays in tune providing you have it setup correctly. It seems like it will hold up against the test of a musicians time!! My experience with music yo was very good. I placed my order and got a receipt number right away, then a thank you for your order the next day as well as a confirmation of shipment with a UPS tracking number. It was here in 6 days. These Krammers are made by Gibson and are shipped from the Gibson factory in Nash. Tenn. You can email Gibson for more info on the Krammer line. (since they are real quite about it online) Visit www.gibson.com Good Luck

Just that everyone understands, the new Kramer Strikers may be "shipped" from Gibson’s factory in Nashville TN but they are made in Korea. I’m still looking for someone here to post a review of the guitar. I’m looking for quality and playability.  I have to be honest in that I am intrested in picking one up (can’t beat the price) but the one thing that holds me back in the "rail" pickups that the guitar comes with. The MusicYo site states that the rail pickup’s have a 2/4 configuration where you can pull up on the tone knob to turn on all four pickup rails.  The problem for me is if I don’t like the pickups it doens’t seem like it would be very easy to just replace them with better pickups. The 2/4 pickup selector switch may have to be replaced as well.  I have played the new Kramer Baretta’s with the rail pickups and I wasn’t that impressed. The Jackson DK’s sounded much better (with the Duncan design pickups).   So can anyone who has purchased a new Kramer Striker from MusicYo post an in-depth review of the guitar (quility, sound, opinion of the "rail" pickups etc..). Regards, — — Matt Costanza Austin, TX USA

Response:

Very good company for their guitars, great service. For strings, give www.stringsdirect.co.uk a try – they are also apparently excellent but have far cheaper delivery costs. Stu

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, Has anybody else had any dealings with MusicYo.com ? I logged on a couple of days ago to look at buying a few items, which initially looked good on pricing. However when it actually came to delivery costs, sheesh, it worked out more expensive than buying it from my local retailer ! I am based in the UK, and delivery for 1 (or 10) sets of strings worked out at 39.85 dollars standard delivery ( from the European warehouse) or $97.13 dollars for express delivery ( from the European warehouse) – I nearly fell off my chair ….. Any feedback mush appreciated Rgds Gary

Response:

Hi, Has anybody else had any dealings with MusicYo.com ? I logged on a couple of days ago to look at buying a few items, which initially looked good on pricing. However when it actually came to delivery costs, sheesh, it worked out more expensive than buying it from my local retailer ! I am based in the UK, and delivery for 1 (or 10) sets of strings worked out at 39.85 dollars standard delivery ( from the European warehouse) or $97.13 dollars for express delivery ( from the European warehouse) – I nearly fell off my chair ….. Any feedback mush appreciated

I purchased a guitar (Steinberger Spirit GT-Pro), gigbag, etc. from them.  I’ve been very pleased with their service, incl. customer service & tech support (I used email for both). Dave Morgenlender

Response:

I’ve dealt with them pretty extensively and have been happy with the instruments I purchased. I have purchased strings from them, but since I live in the US, shipping cost is not a major concern. My guess is you might be better off purchasing strings locally as suggested, unless they are the sole source (like for my Steinberger). If these are regular strings, I’d recommend also checking out musicians friend or American Musical Supply for bulk discounts and shipping. If you’r not concerned with brand names, they may have generic bulk strings you may purchase. Another possibility with Music Yo is to contact them to see if they will ship via your preffered shipper. They might be willing to do it for you. Contact is by email only, however, they have responded to some requests in the past and have been a pleasure to deal with. Toby

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Has anybody else had any dealings with MusicYo.com ? I logged on a couple of days ago to look at buying a few items, which initially looked good on pricing. However when it actually came to delivery costs, sheesh, it worked out more expensive than buying it from my local retailer ! I am based in the UK, and delivery for 1 (or 10) sets of strings worked out at 39.85 dollars standard delivery ( from the European warehouse) or $97.13 dollars for express delivery ( from the European warehouse) – I nearly fell off my chair ….. Well, I don’t know about their shipping prices on small items like Christmas gift last year…….but I think if I was going to actually buy anything from them, it would be something like a guitar or amp and not strings.  Is there a reason you can’t go to a local store for strings? Charles — Head Papershuffler Paper Airplane Division (currently assigned to the Rubber Band Flight Dynamics project)

Response:

Hi, Has anybody else had any dealings with MusicYo.com ? I logged on a couple of days ago to look at buying a few items, which initially looked good on pricing. However when it actually came to delivery costs, sheesh, it worked out more expensive than buying it from my local retailer ! I am based in the UK, and delivery for 1 (or 10) sets of strings worked out at 39.85 dollars standard delivery ( from the European warehouse) or $97.13 dollars for express delivery ( from the European warehouse) – I nearly fell off my chair

I noticed the UK prices are much higher. I have no idea about tariffs or costs in the US. The prices in the US are lower and you can use the US postal service to lower the delivery costs – something a lot of places are now using after the tech bubble collapsed and freebies and subsidies went out the window as wel las the feeling that online sales was the future of retailing. Fuel costs also rose with the rise of oil prices causing a rise a shipping prices. I got my bass delviered I think for $12 or so by the postal service and it got here in about a week about the same as UPS which would have cost $30-40.  

Response:

Has anybody else had any dealings with MusicYo.com ? I logged on a couple of days ago to look at buying a few items, which initially looked good on pricing. However when it actually came to delivery costs, sheesh, it worked out more expensive than buying it from my local retailer ! I am based in the UK, and delivery for 1 (or 10) sets of strings worked out at 39.85 dollars standard delivery ( from the European warehouse) or $97.13 dollars for express delivery ( from the European warehouse) – I nearly fell off my chair …..

Well, I don’t know about their shipping prices on small items like gift last year…….but I think if I was going to actually buy anything from them, it would be something like a guitar or amp and not strings.  Is there a reason you can’t go to a local store for strings? Charles — Head Papershuffler Paper Airplane Division (currently assigned to the Rubber Band Flight Dynamics project)

Response:

Hi, Has anybody else had any dealings with MusicYo.com ? I logged on a couple of days ago to look at buying a few items, which initially looked good on pricing. However when it actually came to delivery costs, sheesh, it worked out more expensive than buying it from my local retailer ! I am based in the UK, and delivery for 1 (or 10) sets of strings worked out at 39.85 dollars standard delivery ( from the European warehouse) or $97.13 dollars for express delivery ( from the European warehouse) – I nearly fell off my chair ….. Any feedback mush appreciated Rgds Gary

Response:

Question:

It could be the propellant you are having a problem with or the medication myself.  I had problems with aerobid inhaler, it made me feel worse.  My doctor switched me to azmacort and I am free sailing now.  

Response:

Actually, to me the Steroid works best out of my three different types of medications, keeping my asthma at the minimal attacks. — Aaron Kennell – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

It could be the propellant you are having a problem with or the medication myself.  I had problems with aerobid inhaler, it made me feel worse.  My doctor switched me to azmacort and I am free sailing now.  

A few years ago, my pulmonologist put me on Becloforte. After a few months, trying to inhale it was making me caugh with the result that I was not inhaling it at all or almost. He then switched me to Pulmicort and I had no problem. I had maybe, he said, become allergic to the gas propellant… Yves Dussault

Response:

Actually, to me the Steroid works best out of my three different types of medications, keeping my asthma at the minimal attacks.

If you had tried breathing thechniques you would also have less steroids, and perhaps no asthma attacks.. |-| /- |-< |-< ||| – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — Aaron Kennell

Response:

Question:

Excellent post Gordo thats why my GI told me not to take it on tx. I wouldn’t want to take anything that could give a false reading on my labs while on tx. No way!                                              Juanita

Response:

Thanks for passing that on, Gordo. Should I or shouldn’t I?  The answer is only one phone call away.  Call or no call? Naw, I don’t wanna know.   Elmo ////////////   I think I was the one who started this last year when I was on tx. Here’s the background: We use a family of enzymes called "Cytochrome P450" (or "CYP") to get rid of a lot of substances (such as many drugs) from our bodies. The amount of a drug (such as ribavirin) that you take and how often you take it is based on how fast your body gets rid of it. You need a certain amount in you for the drug to work, and the faster your body gets rid of it the more you have to take, and you have to take it more often. So if I’m taking a drug that is metabolized by a CYP, and I take another drug that changes how that CYP works (slows it down or speeds it up) then there’s the potential that I could end up with way too much of the first drug (because it’s not getting cleared as fast) or too little (because it’s getting cleared too fast.) Possible overdose, or the drug just won’t work. It gets kind of technical but if you like this stuff I thought this site was a good overview: http://www.anaesthetist.com/physiol/basics/metabol/cyp/cyp.htm#all Milk Thistle has repeatedly been shown to impair one of the CYP enzymes – CYP3A4 – and had a significant impact on the metabolism of several substances that are metabolized by that enzyme. This is exactly the same situation that has caused many toxic drug interactions. Where it gets confusing is that these studies are done using liver cells in cultures and there’s one study that looked for, and didn’t find, the same effects in people. So what’s this mean for people on treatment? From: http://www.drugs.com/PDR/Ribavirin__USP_Capsules.html "Results of in vitro studies using both human and rat liver microsome preparations indicated little or no cytochrome P450 enzyme-mediated metabolism of ribavirin, with minimal potential for P450 enzyme-based drug interactions." So there doesn’t seem to be a potential for interaction with Ribavirin. Same thing for pegasys: "Peginterferon-a -2a (40kD) showed no significant effects on drug metabolism mediated by CYP2C9, 2C19, 2D6 and 3A4 isoenzymes in healthy nonsmoking male volunteers." (from http://janis7hepc.com/differences_between_pegasys_and.htm) People on tx tend to take a lot of other drugs, though, and this site lists a lot of drugs that use the same enzyme that Milk Thistle, in the lab, has been shown to inhibit: http://www.catie.ca/supple-e.nsf/0/7b09aa55a412896c85256c6e0070bf60?O… ocument The effects of Milk Thistle are mostly based on "I took it and it made my liver better" reports, and by looking at its activity in cells in test tubes – the same type of test tubes that show it has a negative interaction with some other drugs (meaning of someone is going to use the argument that the test tube studies don’t apply to bodies, they have to admit that it applies to the supposed benefits as well.) One recent clinical study which attempted to show some benefit to using it found none at all: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/05/050504003425.htm So end result: there is no predicted interaction with interferon or ribavirin. There is a possible interaction with a lot of other drugs that people on tx take (and that I was taking). A recent study shows that it doesn’t seem to have the beneficial effect that people have been saying it has. I decided not to take it. Gordo In article <L9nwe.5387$Bn6.179@trndny08

, "john" <otk…@hotmail.com

wrote: To be honest, everyone in the group is saying it’s not good to take milk thistle while on interferon and the doc said its fine.With the vast knowledge from this group i have learned more in 2 days here then 9 monthes with the doctor.Thanks everyone…… "AguaGirl" <some…@somewhere.com

wrote in message

news:RYGdnWWn6JIr9FzfRVn-iA@adelphia.com… <elmoemer…@webtv.net

wrote in message

news:10915-42C08C99-698@storefull-3256.bay.webtv.net… ahahahahahahahahaha!!! If it was good for good ole AG, it must be good for you. Her response to you defies what many knowledgable experts on the matter have stated. Milk thistle has a history of interfering with the absorbtion of other drugs and it’s not known for sure if it has the same negative effect on combination drugs, but many of the hepc experts recommend not taking it while on tx. Why chance it? AG’s response isn’t so much about milk thistle as it is about disagreeing with me. LOL. As she said though, do your research and you’ll see there’s been much speculation about whether you should take milk thistle and do tx at the same time. Elmo Your wrong elmo. I honestly don’t give you much thought one way or the other….and I didn’t say it was good for everyone. I basically said there is disagreement in the medical community about milk thistles interaction with the tx. You are not a doctor nor am I. John has a doctor. What I told John was to run EVERYTHING he reads or hears past his doctor which is what I did. (which is why I continued to take it). Your first post sounded definitive. The case against milk thistle is speculative…which is exactly what I said and what you parroted in your reply. I didn’t even disagree with what you posted at first, merely said it wasn’t ‘fact’ as much as speculation. AG http://community.webtv.net/elmoemerson/DocElmosHepFile http://community.webtv.net/elmoemerson/TheFamilyAlbum

Response:

In article <10915-42C08C99-…@storefull-3256.bay.webtv.net

,

 elmoemer…@webtv.net wrote:

 Milk thistle has a history of interfering with the absorbtion of other drugs and it’s not known for sure if it has the same negative effect on combination drugs, but many of the hepc experts recommend not taking it while on tx.  Why chance it?

The active ingredient in Milk Thistle has the _potential_ to interfere with a liver enzyme which is used by the body to metabolize many different drugs. One study with one anti-HIV Protease Inhibitor showed that taking it with Milk Thistle somewhat reduced the amount that was absorbed from one dose but most importantly, when levels of the PI were measured at the "trough" point – right before the next scheduled dose – it was an average of 25% and as much as 60% lower than it should be.  That’s significant and bad and could lead to resistance. So even though some people take it with other meds with no apparent problems, there is evidence that the potential it has to interfere is very real. Seems to me that something of such unproven benefit – which at least one study has shown to have no benefit – that has the potential to cause problems isn’t something I’d want to take while taking other serious meds. From: http://www.catie.ca/supple-e.nsf/0/7b09aa55a412896c85256c6e0070bf60?O… ocument ————— Below is a short list of some other medications that are processed through the CYP3A4 enzyme. Based on the effect of milk thistle on liver enzymes in the lab, it is possible that levels of these medications may increase if taken by people who are also using milk thistle. This list is not exhaustive:    

Question:

I know this is a common subject, but hot flashes are driving me nuts.  They started near the end of chemo. I have about 20 a day.  I have tried natural progesterone cream.  I was interested in black cohosh, but after reading on the internet that it is "estrogen-like", I am afraid of it.  My lump was ER+. I have been using the progesterone cream for 3 weeks.  I have seen absolutely no abatement of the hot flashes with this. Does anyone have any ideas?  Is there anything which works but does not increase the chances of recurrence? thanks, nana

Response:

" Does anyone have any ideas?  Is there anything which works but does not increase the chances of recurrence?

Hi Nana, It’s my understanding that a Effexor, an antidepressant, is used to help hot flashes.  I was diagnosed almost twenty years ago and completed a year of CMF chemo a year after diagnosis.  The chemo induced a premature menopause and with it came the hot flashes.  They abated a bit for quite a few years, but are back now (probably coinciding with the time of my natural menopause).  I haven’t asked my Dr. about the Effexor because I know that the antidepressants come with some side effects.  While I hate the hot flashes, I’ll put up with them over the possible side effects of a tricyclic antidepressant.  Good luck to you! Barb

Response:

I was interested in black cohosh, but after reading on the internet that it is "estrogen-like", I am afraid of it.  My lump was ER+.

Susan Love debunks this on her site: http://www.susanlovemd.com/community/flashes/hotflash030725.htm

Response:

Barb, I think Effexor is not a tricyclic antidepressant. I believe it works in a similar way to the ‘new’ antidepressants like Prozac.  The older tricyclics have some unpleasant side effects but I understand that the new antidepressants are relatively free of significant side effects.  With Effexor, the main problems seem to be nausea, sweating and insomnia but I know that these don’t affect everybody and I suppose the severity must be related to the dose. My wife couldn’t tolerate these drugs after her chemo and she had to put up with the hot flashes.  However, I know people who get along just fine with Effexor and it is a great help to them.  It would be a shame if anybody had to suffer unnecessarily because of concerns about Effexor side effects. Some people don’t have any side effects at all. I know a lot of people don’t like the thought of taking antidepressants and it’s certainly not for me to say they are right or wrong.  However, if these drugs can help with the hot flashes, some might consider it worthwhile to speak to their doctor. Best wishes to you, Richard

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – " Does anyone have any ideas?  Is there anything which works but does not increase the chances of recurrence? Hi Nana, It’s my understanding that a Effexor, an antidepressant, is used to help hot flashes.  I was diagnosed almost twenty years ago and completed a year of CMF chemo a year after diagnosis.  The chemo induced a premature menopause and with it came the hot flashes.  They abated a bit for quite a few years, but are back now (probably coinciding with the time of my natural menopause).  I haven’t asked my Dr. about the Effexor because I know that the antidepressants come with some side effects.  While I hate the hot flashes, I’ll put up with them over the possible side effects of a tricyclic antidepressant.  Good luck to you! Barb

Response:

Hi Nana, I don’t know if this is true for all but whenever  I ate foods with sugar I would get an almost immediate hot flash.  Avoiding those foods helped a great deal.  Then, if and when I did get one I tried to ride it through like a wave on the ocean.  Doing that me feel like I had some sense of control and that helped, too. Do hope these are lessened for you—take care…

Response:

I had unbearable hot flashes after CMF-induced chemopause at age 43.  Every 20-30 minutes,  24/7, dripping sweat on the floor….  I tried the yam cream (no help), clonidine patches (wouldn’t stick I sweat so much)- finally my onc tried Effexor XR– I got almost immediate relief (I take 75 mg in the AM)  The major side effect is that it can raise your blood pressure.  I have zero side effects.  jeannette

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I know this is a common subject, but hot flashes are driving me nuts. They started near the end of chemo. I have about 20 a day.  I have tried natural progesterone cream.  I was interested in black cohosh, but after reading on the internet that it is "estrogen-like", I am afraid of it.  My lump was ER+. I have been using the progesterone cream for 3 weeks.  I have seen absolutely no abatement of the hot flashes with this. Does anyone have any ideas?  Is there anything which works but does not increase the chances of recurrence? thanks, nana

Response:

I am a little nervous.  I reviewed my pathology report and remembered that my lump was both ER+ and PR+.  I have been using the natural progesterone cream for 3 weeks.  Do you think this could have caused a problem? I am not going to use any more "natural" methods such as progesterone cream or black cohosh.  Black Cohosh is estrogen like and therefore could possibly encourage tumor growth.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I know this is a common subject, but hot flashes are driving me nuts. They started near the end of chemo. I have about 20 a day.  I have tried natural progesterone cream.  I was interested in black cohosh, but after reading on the internet that it is "estrogen-like", I am afraid of it.  My lump was ER+. I have been using the progesterone cream for 3 weeks.  I have seen absolutely no abatement of the hot flashes with this. Does anyone have any ideas?  Is there anything which works but does not increase the chances of recurrence? thanks, nana

Response:

Barb, I think Effexor is not a tricyclic antidepressant. I believe it works in a similar way to the ‘new’ antidepressants like Prozac.

You are correct; Effexor is a selective serotonin reuptake inhibiter (SSRI).  As with any drug, it may have unwanted side effects, but is generally better tolerated than the tricyclics (which aren’t that bad for many people).  Clonidine (Catapres(R)), an alpha adrenergic blocker usually used for blood pressure control helps some folks, as does Bellergal or similar mixtures, evening primrose oil, and vitamin E.  I think the SSRIs are currently preferred.  Zoloft and Effexor are both good. Both can be associated with either weight gain or loss; Effexor is a little more likely to cause weight loss than gain, while most of the others cause gain more frequently than loss. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The older tricyclics have some unpleasant side effects but I understand that the new antidepressants are relatively free of significant side effects.  With Effexor, the main problems seem to be nausea, sweating and insomnia but I know that these don’t affect everybody and I suppose the severity must be related to the dose. My wife couldn’t tolerate these drugs after her chemo and she had to put up with the hot flashes.  However, I know people who get along just fine with Effexor and it is a great help to them.  It would be a shame if anybody had to suffer unnecessarily because of concerns about Effexor side effects. Some people don’t have any side effects at all. I know a lot of people don’t like the thought of taking antidepressants and it’s certainly not for me to say they are right or wrong.  However, if these drugs can help with the hot flashes, some might consider it worthwhile to speak to their doctor. Best wishes to you, Richard " Does anyone have any ideas?  Is there anything which works but does not increase the chances of recurrence? Hi Nana, It’s my understanding that a Effexor, an antidepressant, is used to help hot flashes.  I was diagnosed almost twenty years ago and completed a year of CMF chemo a year after diagnosis.  The chemo induced a premature menopause and with it came the hot flashes.  They abated a bit for quite a few years, but are back now (probably coinciding with the time of my natural menopause).  I haven’t asked my Dr. about the Effexor because I know that the antidepressants come with some side effects.  While I hate the hot flashes, I’ll put up with them over the possible side effects of a tricyclic antidepressant.  Good luck to you! Barb

Response:

Thanks for the correction.  I knew when I wrote it that it didn’t look right, and should have known better.  My daughter took many, many of the SSRI’s a couple of years ago for postpartum depression.  She had a hard time finding the right one and did have significant side effects with this category of drugs.  That doesn’t mean that another person would have the same.  I just prefer to put up with the hot flashes rather than risk the possible side effects.  It’s great when a person gets the optimum benefit with few of the hassles, isn’t it?  Thanks again for clearing my "boo-boo". Barb

Response:

Hi, Nana:     I must be one of the weird ones. I have the hot flashes, but I love the blinkin’ things — first time I’ve been warm in years.     I was also ER+. Nonetheless, when I started having the hot flashes, by onc offered to put me on an estrogen ring which would emit just enough estrogen to keep the hot flashes down but not enough to exacerbate the cancer. I didn’t take it because, as I said, I’m crazy and love my hot flashes.     If any body here would have an answer for you, it would be Tim. As far as I’m concerned, he’s our guru. But I wouldn’t take anything without talking first with your oncologist. Until you do, grab a fan and ice water, girlfriend! I wish I could take your flashes for you. I only get them every 3 minutes!     Hugs,         Mary K

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am a little nervous.  I reviewed my pathology report and remembered that my lump was both ER+ and PR+.  I have been using the natural progesterone cream for 3 weeks.  Do you think this could have caused a problem? I am not going to use any more "natural" methods such as progesterone cream or black cohosh.  Black Cohosh is estrogen like and therefore could possibly encourage tumor growth. I know this is a common subject, but hot flashes are driving me nuts. They started near the end of chemo. I have about 20 a day.  I have tried natural progesterone cream.  I was interested in black cohosh, but after reading on the internet that it is "estrogen-like", I am afraid of it.  My lump was ER+. I have been using the progesterone cream for 3 weeks.  I have seen absolutely no abatement of the hot flashes with this. Does anyone have any ideas?  Is there anything which works but does not increase the chances of recurrence? thanks, nana

Response:

I don’t really know very much about this.  I would certainly think that progesterone cream was a bad idea if the cancer is PR+, however the effect on potential tumours is relatively long term, so I doubt that 3 weeks has caused a problem. With regard to Black Cohosh and its ilk, there seem to be differing opinions, and the research results seem to be uncertain.  One obviously wants to minimise estrogen activity, but to replace the function of estrogen in -parts- of the body.  So the fact that it is estrogen-like is not necessarily a bad thing, it depends on the specific effects on breast cancer tissue, ie which particular estrogen receptors it can bind to.  After all Tamoxifen is estrogen-like in that it binds to estrogen receptors, but of course having done so it dos not activate them. I wouldn’t rule it out yet, but I’d read up on the latest research before using it, and of course consult with your oncologist before prescribing yourself anything, ‘natural’ or otherwise. Tim Jackson – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –     If any body here would have an answer for you, it would be Tim. I am a little nervous.  I reviewed my pathology report and remembered that my lump was both ER+ and PR+.  I have been using the natural progesterone cream for 3 weeks.  Do you think this could have caused a problem? I am not going to use any more "natural" methods such as progesterone cream or black cohosh.  Black Cohosh is estrogen like and therefore could possibly encourage tumor growth.

Response:

Too bad the abstract didn’t list WHICH Vit. E — there are four, each with it’s own individual properties. Lady8

Response:

<< Too bad the abstract didn’t list WHICH Vit. E — there are four, each with it’s own individual properties. Lady8   I don’t know that much about vitamins but do think we need to be cautious about anything out-of-the norm that we opt to take.  One important fact about vitamins and supplements–they are considered dietary aids and are under different regulations for manufacture than medications.  What is contained and what the label states is contained do not have to be the same.  Because they are considered ‘dietary,’ they are allowed some leeway in that regard.  So, if decides to take them it is good to ascertain whether or not the company that you are getting them from guarantees that the ingredients and % of amounts are accurate.  Some vitamin manufacturers, however, do guarantee that their products and labels are accurate  even though they are not required to do so (state that they are guaranteed, accurate, or even be accurate).

Response:

Dee wrote <<   The Vitamin E worked to reduce the severity and made the flashes tolerable.  I was surprised at a doctor making that suggestion. I really don’t know alot about vitamins but there appear to be mixed reviews on whether they are or aren’t good for those with breast cancer. "http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/htbin-post/Entrez/query?uid=11807780&form… b=m&Dopt=r "1: Int J Cancer 2002 Feb 10;97(5):574-9 Oxidant-antioxidant status in relation to survival among breast cancer patients. Saintot M, Mathieu-Daude H, Astre C, Grenier J, Simony-Lafontaine J, Gerber M. Centre de Recherche en Cancerologie, INSERM-CRLCC, Val D’Aurelle, Parc Euromedecine, Montpellier, France. The role of plasma oxidant-antioxidant status in survival after breast cancer surgery was investigated in a cohort of patients (n = 363) hospitalized in Southern France between 1989 and 1992. The median follow-up was 8 years after surgery for histologically confirmed breast cancer. Plasma analyses were performed after diagnosis and before surgery and adjuvant therapy. We found an inverse relationship between plasma lipoperoxides (MDA) and tumor size at diagnosis, together with higher lipoperoxide levels in node-negative tumors than in node-positive ones (TNM). The longitudinal approach revealed an increased risk of recurrence for patients with plasma lipoperoxides in the highest tertile of the sample (RR = 2.1, 95% CI 1.1-4.0). In addition, the risk of recurrence increased (RR = 1.7, 95%CI 1.0-3.0), after adjustment for the known prognostic factors (TNM), for patients with plasma lipid-adjusted vitamin E levels of over 22 micromol/l. The risk of breast cancer death was twice as great for patients with plasma lipid-adjusted vitamin E levels above this value. Excesses of plasma lipoperoxides and vitamin E appear to be factors in poor prognosis for breast cancer-specific survival (OVS) and disease-free survival (DFS), respectively, independent of tumor characteristics at diagnosis. Several hypotheses are advanced to explain the possible role of plasma vitamin E as a factor in poor prognosis for survival. Copyright 2001 Wiley-Liss, Inc. MeSH Terms: *       Adult *       Aged *       Aged, 80 and over *       Antioxidants/metabolism* *       Biological Markers/blood *       Breast Neoplasms/surgery *       Breast Neoplasms/secondary *       Breast Neoplasms/mortality* *       Breast Neoplasms/metabolism* *       Carcinoma, Infiltrating Duct/surgery *       Carcinoma, Infiltrating Duct/secondary *       Carcinoma, Infiltrating Duct/metabolism* *       Carcinoma, Infiltrating Duct/epidemiology *       Carcinoma, Intraductal, Noninfiltrating/surgery *       Carcinoma, Intraductal, Noninfiltrating/metabolism* *       Carcinoma, Intraductal, Noninfiltrating/epidemiology *       Carcinoma, Lobular/surgery *       Carcinoma, Lobular/secondary *       Carcinoma, Lobular/metabolism* *       Carcinoma, Lobular/epidemiology *       Cholesterol/blood *       Cohort Studies *       Disease-Free Survival *       Female *       Follow-Up Studies *       France/epidemiology *       Human *       Lipid Peroxides/blood *       Longitudinal Studies *       Lymphatic Metastasis *       Middle Age *       Neoplasm Recurrence, Local *       Oxidants/blood* *       Receptors, Estrogen/metabolism *       Survival Rate Substances: *       Cholesterol *       Receptors, Estrogen *       Oxidants *       Lipid Peroxides *       Biological Markers *       Antioxidants PMID: 11807780 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]"

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Interesting.  I suppose I could learn.  No I hadn’t heard of that either One might theorise about the tissue’s response to T which makes it ineffective after five years.  Something like preferentially breeding cell lines which are resistant to T.  Perhaps a similar effect occurs in other tissues and maybe that can cause a withdrawal effect when you stop. Do you know which arm of ATAC you were on, or is it totally blind? Tim

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I don’t really know very much about this. Well perhaps you know something about this: In late June I finished the five year course of the ATAC programme (Arimidex, Tamoxifen, Alone or Combined). About two weeks after that I had a hot flush (being English – it’s what we say!) The incidents have increased, now I have them two or three times a day. Might there be a link? Mary (not due to menopause, that was fourteen years ago!)

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Interesting.  I suppose I could learn.  No I hadn’t heard of that either One might theorise about the tissue’s response to T which makes it ineffective after five years.  Something like preferentially breeding cell lines which are resistant to T.  Perhaps a similar effect occurs in other tissues and maybe that can cause a withdrawal effect when you stop. Do you know which arm of ATAC you were on, or is it totally blind?

Totally blind. No clues at all. No-one knows. As I said, it might not be related but the co-incidence at my age might be significant. As you said, it’s interesting Mary – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Tim I don’t really know very much about this. Well perhaps you know something about this: In late June I finished the five year course of the ATAC programme (Arimidex, Tamoxifen, Alone or Combined). About two weeks after that I had a hot flush (being English – it’s what we say!) The incidents have increased, now I have them two or three times a day. Might there be a link? Mary (not due to menopause, that was fourteen years ago!)

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My problem is I don’t understand what mechanism causes the hot flushes.  I understand that they happen in estrogen withdrawal, but I don’t know why. My thinking about Tamoxifen resistance is that most of our body tissues are constantly slowly being renewed, especially those in which cancer can occur. So if we change the regime of growth factors in which this happen we prevent the cell lines which are promoted by the particular growth factor, in this case estrogen, from being replaced as they die out, and cell lines which use other mechanisms become prevalent.  Pure Darwin.  And so the tissue becomes refractory to the drug.  We know the cells have the potential to use different growth factors because we get cancers which do.  This mechanism would equally apply to aromatase inhibitors, it is directly dependent on the absence of estrogen stimulation however caused and exactly parallels the cancer suppression. If this is the mechanism then one would expect the incidence of ER+ cancers to have fallen immediately the drug was introduced, to a plateau where it would pretty much stay even after the drug was eventually withdrawn, but the incidence of ER- cancers would have slowly risen because of the increased proportion of non-estrogen dependent cell lines (but of course not by as much as the ER+ fell, because they are the prevalent cancer).  Another prediction of the model is that if a woman who was post 5 years Tamoxifen took estrogen therapy, or became pregnant, her breasts would not enlarge as much as they normally do. In this scenario it is clear that the reintroduction of estrogen would do -something- although it would have little effect on breast tissue growth. It should for example still inhibit osteoclasts (bone removal cells), as the removal of an inhibition would not have suppressed cell line evolution.  If I understood how estrogen withdrawal actually causes spurious fluctuations in the temperature control system, then maybe I could use this model to explain a similar effect on reintroduction. Tim Jackson – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – One might theorise about the tissue’s response to T which makes it ineffective after five years. In late June I finished the five year course of the ATAC programme (Arimidex, Tamoxifen, Alone or Combined). About two weeks after that I had a hot flush (being English – it’s what we say!)

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My problem is I don’t understand what mechanism causes the hot flushes.  I understand that they happen in estrogen withdrawal, but I don’t know why. My thinking about Tamoxifen resistance is that most of our body tissues are constantly slowly being renewed, especially those in which cancer can occur. So if we change the regime of growth factors in which this happen we prevent the cell lines which are promoted by the particular growth factor, in this case estrogen, from being replaced as they die out, and cell lines which use other mechanisms become prevalent.  Pure Darwin.  And so the tissue becomes refractory to the drug.  We know the cells have the potential to use different growth factors because we get cancers which do.  This mechanism would equally apply to aromatase inhibitors, it is directly dependent on the absence of estrogen stimulation however caused and exactly parallels the cancer suppression.

Um. I -think- I understand some of that … If this is the mechanism then one would expect the incidence of ER+ cancers to have fallen immediately the drug was introduced, to a plateau where it would pretty much stay even after the drug was eventually withdrawn, but the incidence of ER- cancers would have slowly risen because of the increased proportion of non-estrogen dependent cell lines (but of course not by as much as the ER+ fell, because they are the prevalent cancer).  Another prediction of the model is that if a woman who was post 5 years Tamoxifen took estrogen therapy, or became pregnant, her breasts would not enlarge as much as they normally do.

Mine was ER+, I -think- that’s comforting … In this scenario it is clear that the reintroduction of estrogen would do -something- although it would have little effect on breast tissue growth. It should for example still inhibit osteoclasts (bone removal cells), as the removal of an inhibition would not have suppressed cell line evolution.

As I -think- I unerstand that it suggests that I should have estrogen re-introduced – although perhaps I’m still producing my own. I was tested post menopausally be pre-cancer diagnosis and told I had an excess of estrogen. If I understood how estrogen withdrawal actually causes spurious fluctuations in the temperature control system, then maybe I could use this model to explain a similar effect on reintroduction.

Of course I only started the flushes at menopause but all my life I’ve been a hot and sweaty person. Still am. I sweat in bed while Spouse shivers, he’s always warmed himself on me. Today I’m in shorts and T-shirt (not a pretty sight but I’m comfortable). He’s in jeans and sweat shirt. He says it’s because his thermostat works and mine doesn’t Mary – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Tim Jackson One might theorise about the tissue’s response to T which makes it ineffective after five years. In late June I finished the five year course of the ATAC programme (Arimidex, Tamoxifen, Alone or Combined). About two weeks after that I had a hot flush (being English – it’s what we say!)

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No one has mentioned Vitamin E pills?  Tthe gyn recommended trying it and said there were prescription drugs that might help, if it didn’t.  The Vitamin E worked to reduce the severity and made the flashes tolerable.  I was surprised at a doctor making that suggestion. Also, don’t some people call them "power surges."

I know this is a common subject, but hot flashes are driving me nuts.  They started near the end of chemo. I have about 20 a day.  I have tried natural progesterone cream.  I was interested in black cohosh, but after reading on the internet that it is "estrogen-like", I am afraid of it.  My lump was ER+. I have been using the progesterone cream for 3 weeks.  I have seen absolutely no abatement of the hot flashes with this. Does anyone have any ideas?  Is there anything which works but does not increase the chances of recurrence? thanks, nana

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No one has mentioned Vitamin E pills?  Tthe gyn recommended trying it and said there were prescription drugs that might help, if it didn’t.  The Vitamin E worked to reduce the severity and made the flashes tolerable.  I was surprised at a doctor making that suggestion. Also, don’t some people call them "power surges."

LOL! I’ll try to remember that Mary

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Yeah, they do call them power surges! Believe me, my power *really* surges, too!! I do take the Vitamin E. 2,000IU per day. It also is supposed to help the mind and is recommended often for Alzheimer’s patients. I must be hopeless: I still have the hot flashes BIG time. My husband has the Alzheimer’s disease and he does seem to be doing pretty well. I, on the other hand, forget where I put my car keys, checkbook, etc. Mary K

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – No one has mentioned Vitamin E pills?  Tthe gyn recommended trying it and said there were prescription drugs that might help, if it didn’t.  The Vitamin E worked to reduce the severity and made the flashes tolerable.  I was surprised at a doctor making that suggestion. Also, don’t some people call them "power surges." I know this is a common subject, but hot flashes are driving me nuts. They started near the end of chemo. I have about 20 a day.  I have tried natural progesterone cream.  I was interested in black cohosh, but after reading on the internet that it is "estrogen-like", I am afraid of it.  My lump was ER+. I have been using the progesterone cream for 3 weeks.  I have seen absolutely no abatement of the hot flashes with this. Does anyone have any ideas?  Is there anything which works but does not increase the chances of recurrence? thanks, nana

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the reintroduction of estrogen would… for example still inhibit osteoclasts (bone removal cells) As I -think- I unerstand that it suggests that I should have estrogen re-introduced – although perhaps I’m still producing my own. I was tested post menopausally be pre-cancer diagnosis and told I had an excess of estrogen.

Yes. I wouldn’t advocate adding to what you already produce yourself.  That shouldn’t have changed. Of course I only started the flushes at menopause but all my life I’ve been a hot and sweaty person. Still am. I sweat in bed while Spouse shivers, he’s always warmed himself on me. Today I’m in shorts and T-shirt (not a pretty sight but I’m comfortable). He’s in jeans and sweat shirt. He says it’s because his thermostat works and mine doesn’t

Yes, this is the fascinating bit.  I know everyone’s thermostat is different and it depends on body weight and things, and it probably has something to do with fat metabolism, and so does (aromatase) estrogen production, but I can’t quite see the connection all the same. Tim

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I don’t really know very much about this.

Well perhaps you know something about this: In late June I finished the five year course of the ATAC programme (Arimidex, Tamoxifen, Alone or Combined). About two weeks after that I had a hot flush (being English – it’s what we say!) The incidents have increased, now I have them two or three times a day. Might there be a link? Mary (not due to menopause, that was fourteen years ago!)

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Question:

I have been taking zoloft for 2 years now and I have noticed that I do not feel as good as I had. It did stop my head chatters. I think it is an OCD thought pattern but I am becoming more irritable and tired. Also my BP went up after starting zoloft and I have psoriasis and this also worsened. I am down to 25 mg every other day and will stop all next week. I feel better but some of the thought pattern has come back. This is ok I can deal. Has anyone come off and feel they do not need it anylonger. I weened myself off xanex a year ago and have done great without it also. Joan

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I am down to 25 mg every other day and will stop all next week. A daily Zoloft dose would be preferrable to every other day dosing. I realize those 50 mg tabs are hard to cut up with a knife, but I’ve done it. Chip

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Hi,   I have also been on zoloft for 2 yrs.at one point i went off of them and felt great for about 5 months,then slowly but surely the panic attacks and depression came back. its been over a year since i went back on zoloft,ive been doing really well.but i don’t want to take it forever if i don’t have to.i am also  weening off the zoloft.so far i feel good,but have noticed a few things,dizziness,tingleling around my mouth and heart flutters,im not sure if this is from weening off or these herbs that i am trying(5-htp).i called my doc about it and she said i took too high of a dose of the herb,i think it’s a combo of both.if these herbs don’t work i will go back on zoloft and forget about tring other things.my only complaint about zoloft is the weight i’ve gained,other then that it’s been great.also it did seem like lately it wasn’t working as well,so instead of upping my dose i decided to try 5-htp.   hope this helps. ~~~  Your goals,minus your doubts,equal your reality ~~~~                                Julie

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I  have been prescribed zoloft (25mg 1 week then 50) by my Dr. I went to him complaining of very bad irritability. I mean to say I get mad and aggitated very easily. I had PA’s for about 7 years and they went away after stopping my high caffiene intake and depression runs in my family. The DR. thought that my temper problem could be a mild depression and thus the zoloft pescription. I would like to know what side effects I may have and if anyone has had the same thing prescribed for these symptoms. Dan

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I  have been prescribed zoloft (25mg 1 week then 50) by my Dr. I went to him complaining of very bad irritability. I mean to say I get mad and aggitated very easily. I had PA’s for about 7 years and they went away after stopping my high caffiene intake and depression runs in my family. The DR. thought that my temper problem could be a mild depression and thus the zoloft pescription. I would like to know what side effects I may have and if anyone has had the same thing prescribed for these symptoms. Dan Hi Dan,

I have been on Zoloft 25mg for a couple of months.  It wasn’t my first ssri- I started with Paxil and switched to Zoloft – so I missed out on the weaning on process.  The only thing I did/do experience was stomach discomfort(long story) other than that I can relate to your temper and irritability – I still get that way sometimes but It doesn’t CONSUME me.  I can let it go- no problem.  Sucks living without coffee doesn’t it?- I think I’m going through withdrawal – gosh -I could go for cup right now.  No beer, No cigs, No Coffee- Is this hell or what? Just kidding Bonnie Before you buy.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I  have been prescribed zoloft (25mg 1 week then 50) by my Dr. I went to him complaining of very bad irritability. I mean to say I get mad and aggitated very easily. I had PA’s for about 7 years and they went away after stopping my high caffiene intake and depression runs in my family. The DR. thought that my temper problem could be a mild depression and thus the zoloft pescription. I would like to know what side effects I may have and if anyone has had the same thing prescribed for these symptoms. Dan

Hi Dan, Weaning on it you might not get any side effects. The most noticeable for me was upset stomach and dry mouth. Oh yes I also Yawned allot. If you get side effects that bother you talk to your doctor. You can always cut back to a quarter of the 25. I started out at 12.5 and upped it from there. Charla Got questions?  Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. Up to 100 minutes free! http://www.keen.com

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Ah no, actually it is technically not an MAOI I got that all wrong. I am back to my norminal condition now.

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Apparently according to my doc the smallest dose is 50mg. Mabe the pharmesuitical ( ) companies thing that people in the Uk are harder and can start on 50mg *shrug* I had to stop it I could not work. Instead I am going back on st johns whilst waiting to see if I can see a physchatrist.

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Apparently according to my doc the smallest dose is 50mg. Mabe the pharmesuitical ( ) companies thing that people in the Uk are harder and can start on 50mg *shrug* I had to stop it I could not work. Instead I am going back on st johns whilst waiting to see if I can see a physchatrist.

Jason, they should be available in 25mg tablets.  Even if they’re not, invest in a pill cutter and make them smaller (don’t try to use a knife, you’ll wind up with a bunch of powder). Matt

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And that is the same as Sertraline hydroxide isn’t it? I woudn’t worry but I had bad stuff happening on a dose of 50mg.

No wonder as this is far too high a dose to start on. A good starting dose would be 12.5 mg… Philip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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Addendum – I had taken an MAOI for ten days previously. St John’s wort. (hypericum)

It is imperative to have at least a two week washing out period between a MAOI and an SSRI. Whether SJW actually *is* a MAOI remains to be seen but it is sometimes said to have MAOI-like properties at higher doses. Philip

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Addendum – I had taken an MAOI for ten days previously. St John’s wort. (hypericum)

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Can’t SJW +MAOIs cause the same sorts of problems SSRIs or TCAs with MAOIs can? I can’t believe that there wasn’t a waiting period with the MAOI.  This should be very disturbing to you Jason, and suggests strongly you seek another p-doc, or a p-doc if you’re with a GP.  (Though it’s such a basic fact about psychotropic drugs, s/he *had* to know about the risk of mixing MAOIs and SSRIs.) If you’re feeling really depressed and can handle some agitation for a few days, you probably could start at 25mg.  I always start off an SSRI at a really low dose (in this case 12.5mg) because of my high level of anxiety. Matt

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And that is the same as Sertraline hydroxide isn’t it? I woudn’t worry but I had bad stuff happening on a dose of 50mg. These were my symptoms: Day 1 Panic, very anxious, high pulse rate, fidgeting, hot/cold, odd sense of smell/taste, Cannot eat much, Talking to myself more than usual, shaky, hypermania, langauge difficulties, Can’t sleep. DAY 2 Spelling difficulties ( I spelt ofcourse as +ACI-obvcourse+ACI-  ), Slight anxiety, sweating lots, got out of bed 3.30am, felt afraid for some reason. – This is when I decided to stop. I have stopped taking them now. And feel much better. I still have some written langauge difficulties, and some hypertension. It is very rare indeed to get all of these symptoms, it’s wasn’t hugely traumatic and a doctor I saw wasn’t worried. ( tried to persuade me to carry on – but I HAVE to work next week )

Response:

I  have been prescribed zoloft (25mg 1 week then 50) by my Dr. I went to him complaining of very bad irritability. I mean to say I get mad and aggitated very easily. I had PA’s for about 7 years and they went away after stopping my high caffiene intake and depression runs in my family. The DR. thought that my temper problem could be a mild depression and thus the zoloft pescription. I would like to know what side effects I may have and if anyone has had the same thing prescribed for these symptoms. Dan

Dan, SSRIs have a tendency to make people less sensitive to events in their life.  Some people even complain of apathy as a result of taking them. I’ve heard of them being used successfully for irritability, or at least having the effect of making people less irritable.  If I recall correctly (it’s been a while), Peter Kramer even notes this in _Listening to Prozac_ (with respect to Prozac). There is some info on SSRIs and apathy at dr-bob.org/tips  search under "apathy" Best, Matt

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Question:

Ditto to everything Chip and Randee posted.  There is absolutely no evidence to support that any SSRI causes permanent brain damage….in rats or in humans….and they sliced up a lot of rodents to find this out.  SPECT and MRI scans indicate the same for humans….and I’m sure that over the next decade, posthumous studies will produce the same results.  What you should know is that the average age of onset for most Axis I diagnoses is 18-25. More than likely your continued problems are as Philip described synchronous rather than caused by the meds.  We have all been angry about the seeming failure of our body chemistry as expressed by psych symptoms.  However, blaming it on the meds, is a cop-out of taking responsibility for making yourself well…..and posting such accusations here causes a lot of unnecessary worry by people who need their energies to focus on REAL problems.  Get some counseling.   ~Valerie

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I take zoloft and I was crazy before I took it. Panic and the constant thought pattern ruined my life. Zoloft has really helped me. Yes, I had some side effects but nothing like I had on other meds. I will not say neg on xanex but I am sure long term use may also cause you to go crazy. I also have psoriasis and this is not caused by zoloft. Got that before the zoloft or panic. Read up on psoriasis.Psoriasis may aggrivate the zoloft. Some meds do. Good luck on your research but remember many of us need this medication and unless you are 100% sure of what you have found I would be careful before you scare to many people. Joan

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –     ***I’m trying to get to the bottom of this *** I am posting this because of this problem and research I am doing on Zoloft… I have also found another person that has te same exact problems that I have because of this anti-depressant.. First of all , I think it causes permanent brain damage.. I also think that a person who starts out on zoloft will need some sort of anti-depressant for the rest of their life because of the damage it does.. Well, I’ll just try to be short here because I dont know how many of you will have the same problem..   When I was 18, I took zoloft.. I felt very weird in the beggining. Like a draining , kind of brain meltdown feeling… And ever since then (6 years without zoloft) I have had a constant numbing feeling on the left side of my head… It makes me feel more prone to stress/anxiety/panic.. Since then I have also developed a social phobia , psoriasis , and psoriatic arthritis….  Even though I was a little depressed when I was 18, I never knew that this crazyness was going to happen.. It made my condition much worse.. Now i’m stuck with taking xanax for the rest of my life….Anybody else expierence simaler symptoms?? We should sue these damn companies for this garbage.

I’d say it’s doubtful that your complaints are the result of having taken Zoloft. There seems to be a *synchronicity* here but not necessarily a *causal* relationship. It might be the original anxiety for all I know (or can conclude from the sparse data you provided). Does Xanax work for these symptoms as you say that you’re taking it? If it works (at what dose?) it’s obviously a better med for you than Zoloft was. Some of us (including me) will have to be on meds for the rest of our lives. I’d rather not be on meds but it’s the only way for me to have a life. You may be just like me… Philip

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    ***I’m trying to get to the bottom of this *** I am posting this because of this problem and research I am doing on Zoloft… I have also found another person that has te same exact problems that I have because of this anti-depressant.. First of all , I think it causes permanent brain damage.. I also think that a person who starts out on zoloft will need some sort of anti-depressant for the rest of their life because of the damage it does..

 Well, I’ll just try to be short here because I dont know how many of you will have the same problem..   When I was 18, I took zoloft.. I felt very weird in the beggining. Like a draining , kind of brain meltdown feeling… And ever since then (6 years without zoloft) I have had a constant numbing feeling on the left side of my head… It makes me feel more prone to stress/anxiety/panic.. Since then I have also developed a social phobia , psoriasis , and psoriatic arthritis….  Even though I was a little depressed when I was 18, I never knew that this crazyness was going to happen.. It made my condition much worse.. Now i’m stuck with taking xanax for the rest of my life….Anybody else expierence simaler symptoms?? We should sue these damn companies for this garbage.

Mike you can spend the rest of your life trying to figure out why you have this disorder. I seriously doubt that Zoloft is the cause. You were put on Zoloft for a reason, what was that reason? Depression and anxiety are closely related. My disorder started when I was 18, one day I was fine and the next day I was different. Mike you can try to find the reason for your disorder, and try to place blame. You are going to make yourself nuts trying to find the cause. Even if you do find the cause, it won`t help you much. Unless you accept your disorder and own it, you are not going to move on and get better. There are many people that have never been on anti-depressants, that have depression, anxiety, panic, social phobia and psoriasis. How do you explain that Mike? Take all this energy that you are using to blame Zoloft into getting better instead. Jackie

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Would it be safe to say…that Zoloft is a powerful drug?For me the answer is YES. Did Zoloft increase my Anxiety?…yes for me it did! The first month or so were the weirdest (kind of a slight mania….depersonalization ) it pretty much went away.(.except for Anxiety) the longer I stayed on it! I can see how it can help people, I think it helped me with a uplifting state of mind; but it didn’t seem to be worth the price of continuing if I still had to deal Tension and Anxiety. I have discontinued Zoloft for about 2 weeks and I can’t tell much difference; except I can tell I’m not quite as know) I wanted them all to work wonders for me…but they created there own little draw-backs. I’ve given Zoloft 2 trys. I can see why somebody posted about the effects of this drug…I’ve read many places and from ASAP posters on the things I went through…I know that I’m not alone. BUT I know this drug has worked wonders for many other people. Anyway just sharing…not an expert(Obviously) Oh by the way if anybody can offer me a better alternative drug….I’m all EARS! Thanks Much       Wild & Crazy                                                            P.S. my other 2 drugs are Trazodone and Zanax( I really like the Zanax!) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –     ***I’m trying to get to the bottom of this *** I am posting this because of this problem and research I am doing on Zoloft… I have also found another person that has te same exact problems that I have because of this anti-depressant.. First of all , I think it causes permanent brain damage.. I also think that a person who starts out on zoloft will need some sort of anti-depressant for the rest of their life because of the damage it does.. Well, I’ll just try to be short here because I dont know how many of you will have the same problem..   When I was 18, I took zoloft.. I felt very weird in the beggining. Like a draining , kind of brain meltdown feeling… And ever since then (6 years without zoloft) I have had a constant numbing feeling on the left side of my head… It makes me feel more prone to stress/anxiety/panic.. Since then I have also developed a social phobia , psoriasis , and psoriatic arthritis….  Even though I was a little depressed when I was 18, I never knew that this crazyness was going to happen.. It made my condition much worse.. Now i’m stuck with taking xanax for the rest of my life….Anybody else expierence simaler symptoms?? We should sue these damn companies for this garbage. My wife has been on Imiprimine, Luvox, and Zoloft.  The imiprimine helped her depression but the side effects were almost bad enough that the depression was better.  The Luvox had very mild side effects, but it didn’t do much for her depression.  Zoloft has been effective with her depression and with very mild side effects.  I see no evidence of brain dammage. I was on prozac (an SSRI, the same family as Zoloft) for 2 weeks.  It gave me tinnitus and halucinations.  I won’t take an SSRI again.  These are very rare side effects for Prozac, but I’m not the first to get them.  However, just because SSRIs are a bad choice for me, doesn’t mean that huge numbers of users haven’t been helped by them.  Xanax is what helps me, and I may have to take it the rest of my life, but there’s enough research to suggest that there’s a good chance that I won’t. If Zoloft really does cause brain dammage, I think it would of turned up prior to now.  I agree with the prior posts that say you have an anxiety/panc disorder that just happend to manifest itself after you went off the Zoloft. I would also say that you at least have a chance that it’s not permenant. Good Luck,  Mark Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –     ***I’m trying to get to the bottom of this *** I am posting this because of this problem and research I am doing on Zoloft… I have also found another person that has te same exact problems that I have because of this anti-depressant.. First of all , I think it causes permanent brain damage.. I also think that a person who starts out on zoloft will need some sort of anti-depressant for the rest of their life because of the damage it does.. Well, I’ll just try to be short here because I dont know how many of you will have the same problem..   When I was 18, I took zoloft.. I felt very weird in the beggining. Like a draining , kind of brain meltdown feeling… And ever since then (6 years without zoloft) I have had a constant numbing feeling on the left side of my head… It makes me feel more prone to stress/anxiety/panic.. Since then I have also developed a social phobia , psoriasis , and psoriatic arthritis….  Even though I was a little depressed when I was 18, I never knew that this crazyness was going to happen.. It made my condition much worse.. Now i’m stuck with taking xanax for the rest of my life….Anybody else expierence simaler symptoms?? We should sue these damn companies for this garbage.

My wife has been on Imiprimine, Luvox, and Zoloft.  The imiprimine helped her depression but the side effects were almost bad enough that the depression was better.  The Luvox had very mild side effects, but it didn’t do much for her depression.  Zoloft has been effective with her depression and with very mild side effects.  I see no evidence of brain dammage. I was on prozac (an SSRI, the same family as Zoloft) for 2 weeks.  It gave me tinnitus and halucinations.  I won’t take an SSRI again.  These are very rare side effects for Prozac, but I’m not the first to get them.  However, just because SSRIs are a bad choice for me, doesn’t mean that huge numbers of users haven’t been helped by them.  Xanax is what helps me, and I may have to take it the rest of my life, but there’s enough research to suggest that there’s a good chance that I won’t. If Zoloft really does cause brain dammage, I think it would of turned up prior to now.  I agree with the prior posts that say you have an anxiety/panc disorder that just happend to manifest itself after you went off the Zoloft. I would also say that you at least have a chance that it’s not permenant. Good Luck,   Mark Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I am posting this because of this problem and research I am doing on Zoloft… I have also found another person that has te same exact problems that I have because of this anti-depressant.. First of all , I think it causes permanent brain damage.. I also think that a person who starts out on zoloft will need some sort of anti-depressant for the rest of their life because of the damage it does.. Well, I’ll just try to be short here because I dont know how many of you will have the same problem..  When I was 18, I took zoloft.. I felt very weird in the beggining. Like a draining , kind of brain meltdown feeling… And ever since then (6 years without zoloft) I have had a constant numbing feeling on the left side of my head… It makes me feel more prone to stress/anxiety/panic.. Since then I have also developed a social phobia , psoriasis , and psoriatic arthritis….  Even though I was a little depressed when I was 18, I never knew that this crazyness was going to happen.. It made my condition much worse.. Now i’m stuck with taking xanax for the rest of my life….Anybody else expierence simaler symptoms?? We should sue these damn companies for this garbage.

You may be confusing cause and effect here. There are many people on this NG who take or have taken Zoloft as well as many other AD’s. The symptoms that you describe could mean that you are still have problems with depression. I’m not saying outright that you are wrong, however, there is no current evidence to support your claim, either from the med reaearch or, more importantly, anecodotes posted to the NG’s. Is it possible than somehow in your mind that it might be easier to believe your symptoms were induced by your use of Zoloft than to acknowledge that you have an ongoing problem with Panic and/or depression? Keep us up to date if you find any research on the topic. Regards, JaneB

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   These kind of messages really make me mad.Keep your opinions to yourself. Its not enough that I have to take this but then there are people like you who have to make it worse for me.Zoloft is really helping me and I definatly have no brain damage and i’m not depressed.So when you have real proof then post it!!!! Randee

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –     ***I’m trying to get to the bottom of this *** I am posting this because of this problem and research I am doing on Zoloft… I have also found another person that has te same exact problems that I have because of this anti-depressant.. First of all , I think it causes permanent brain damage.. I also think that a person who starts out on zoloft will need some sort of anti-depressant for the rest of their life because of the damage it does.. Well, I’ll just try to be short here because I dont know how many of you will have the same problem..   When I was 18, I took zoloft.. I felt very weird in the beggining. Like a draining , kind of brain meltdown feeling… And ever since then (6 years without zoloft) I have had a constant numbing feeling on the left side of my head… It makes me feel more prone to stress/anxiety/panic.. Since then I have also developed a social phobia , psoriasis , and psoriatic arthritis….  Even though I was a little depressed when I was 18, I never knew that this crazyness was going to happen.. It made my condition much worse.. Now i’m stuck with taking xanax for the rest of my life….Anybody else expierence simaler symptoms?? We should sue these damn companies for this garbage.

  I don’t know about this either…I have had fewer side-effects on Zoloft than I’ve had on any other med but aspirin and ibuprofen (no kidding)…Antibiotics give me flu-like symptoms, antihistimines knock me on my ass and cause dizziness…The list goes on…I have had almost NIL side-effects on Zoloft…Not only that, but like others have said, I was drained and sick WELL before I took Zoloft…If I still am when I get off, I can only assume I still need it, not that it caused it…   Finally, all the research I have read recently is starting to suggest just the opposite of what you say…That depression and anxiety (specifically cortisol and other hormones that are overstimulated in depressed and anxious folks) CAUSES brain damage…Long time depressives have smaller brains in some places  (I cannot remember the specific region at 12:20 PM! ) that control emotions…This seems to be reversible, but that is inconclusive…Also, research shows that taking medications and getting therapy immediately is the best way to prevent this effect and reduce or eliminate further epsiodes… Best, — Charles Phipps

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I’d be interested in whatever you find out about zoloft. I have been on it since March 99. Only 50mg. Haven’t seen a lot of improvement, but I thought it was to treat depression. I went to the Pdoc complaining of anxiety,panic and lack of sleep. Although, he did give me xanax as well for that. You may be right in your claim about zoloft, but I have not heard this before about the medicine.

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Hi, New Jersey! Haven’t  I seen you before down on the boardwalk in Atlantic City , and over there at the Trump Plaza? You look familiar.  : ) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -New Jersey writes: I’m trying to get to the bottom of this. I am posting this because of this problem and research I am doing on Zoloft… I have also found another person that has te same exact problems that I have because of this anti-depressant.. First of all , I think it causes permanent brain damage.. I also think that a person who starts out on zoloft will need some sort of anti-depressant for the rest of their life because of the damage it does.. Well, I’ll just try to be short here because I dont know how many of you will have the same problem.. When I was 18, I took zoloft.. I felt very weird in the beggining. Like a draining , kind of brain meltdown feeling… And ever since then (6 years without zoloft) I have had a constant numbing feeling on the left side of my head… It makes me feel more prone to stress/anxiety/panic.. Since then I have also developed a social phobia , psoriasis , and psoriatic arthritis…. Even though I was a little depressed when I was 18, I never knew that this crazyness was going to happen.. It made my condition much worse.. Now i’m stuck with taking xanax for the rest of my life….Anybody else expierence simaler symptoms?? We should sue these damn companies for this garbage.

NJ, I’ve been on Zoloft for the last 6 years, and so far, no brain damage, just less depression and anxiety. And I’ve been very pleased with this med. And I have never even heard that it causes brain damage. And untill someone shows me proof, I won’t believe it. Just because you met someone that claims his problems are due to brain damage caused by Zoloft doesn’t mean it’s true. It sounds like you were depressed enough at 18 to be treated with Zoloft. I don’t know how long you took it. It seems you now have anxieties, phobias, numbness on your face.  All of these are part of an anxiety disorder. Some, like you,  get depressed first, and later on get the anxiety symptoms. Others have the anxiety symptoms first and may get depressed later on. I had depression in my late teens, and onset of panic disorder  and phobias at age 22. And I had alot of strange feelings all over my body and thought I had disease. But I didn’t. It sounds like you have the same problems we  have here at ASAP. And they’re not due to brain damage from meds. So, are you ever going to go back down to Atlantic City, again?  : ) Take care, Chip

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    ***I’m trying to get to the bottom of this *** I am posting this because of this problem and research I am doing on Zoloft… I have also found another person that has te same exact problems that I have because of this anti-depressant.. First of all , I think it causes permanent brain damage.. I also think that a person who starts out on zoloft will need some sort of anti-depressant for the rest of their life because of the damage it does.. Well, I’ll just try to be short here because I dont know how many of you will have the same problem..   When I was 18, I took zoloft.. I felt very weird in the beggining. Like a draining , kind of brain meltdown feeling… And ever since then (6 years without zoloft) I have had a constant numbing feeling on the left side of my head… It makes me feel more prone to stress/anxiety/panic.. Since then I have also developed a social phobia , psoriasis , and psoriatic arthritis….  Even though I was a little depressed when I was 18, I never knew that this crazyness was going to happen.. It made my condition much worse.. Now i’m stuck with taking xanax for the rest of my life….Anybody else expierence simaler symptoms?? We should sue these damn companies for this garbage.

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Question:

   I seriously think my pd doc. is nuts.I just came from seeing him and he told me starting today to up my zoloft from 50mgs to 100mgs.He said I was going too slow thats why I don’t feel better yet You can’t go too slow. Why do these docs act like they have a plane to catch? snipped Philip

A lot of them do have a plane to catch, Philip. To Zurich to visit their money!!!!      <no joke  :-( Ian

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  I seriously think my pd doc. is nuts.

You are probably right, Randee. A lot of shrinks have their own shrinks!!  And you probably know that they have the highest suicide rate of any of the medical specialities (the stats for docs generally are also higher than the general population). I just came from seeing him and he told me starting today to up my zoloft from 50mgs to 100mgs.He said I was going too slow thats why I don’t feel better yet.I think i’m doing just fine and i’m going to stay at 50mgs for now and find a new doc.

generally, an increase from 50 to 100mg is easier than 0 to 50, but the real determining factor should be how you feel about increasing, not how your doc feels. I tried to tell him why I was weening slow and he told me there is no risk or side-effects by upping it so high.

Did you start rolling on the floor laughing?  I would have. So I asked him if he ever took an SSRI. He didn’t like that one bit..lol

ADs when taken by those without a problem seem to have very few effects beyond S.Es, so IMO all doctors should be required to take a short course of one. This would do wonders for their care of patients! At least they are calling my insurance company today and trying to get zoloft approved.That would be a huge help.I’m still in good spirits though.Not many side-effects on 50mgs. I’m hoping to be breathing better soon.                                        Randee

take care ian

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   I seriously think my pd doc. is nuts.I just came from seeing him and he told me starting today to up my zoloft from 50mgs to 100mgs.He said I was going too slow thats why I don’t feel better yet

You can’t go too slow. Why do these docs act like they have a plane to catch? If you’re feeling ready to raise the Zoloft dose, raise it to 75 mgs first, there is no hurry and your own pace is the best pace. For most people 50 mgs won’t do the trick but if you feel OK there is no reason to do anything about it….. .I think i’m doing just fine and i’m going to stay at 50mgs for now and find a new doc. I tried to tell him why I was weening slow and he told me there is no risk or side-effects by upping it so high

Oh yeah…… .So I asked him if he ever took an SSRI. He didn’t like that one bit..lol At least they are calling my insurance company today and trying to get zoloft approved.That would be a huge help.I’m still in good spirits though.Not many side-effects on 50mgs. I’m hoping to be breathing better soon.

Well, so far so good. I admire you for standing up for yourself, it isn’t all that easy…                                         Randee

Philip

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   I seriously think my pd doc. is nuts.I just came from seeing him and he told me starting today to up my zoloft from 50mgs to 100mgs.He said I was going too slow thats why I don’t feel better yet.I think i’m doing just fine and i’m going to stay at 50mgs for now and find a new doc. I tried to tell him why I was weening slow and he told me there is no risk or side-effects by upping it so high.So I asked him if he ever took an SSRI. He didn’t like that one bit..lol At least they are calling my insurance company today and trying to get zoloft approved.That would be a huge help.I’m still in good spirits though.Not many side-effects on 50mgs. I’m hoping to be breathing better soon.                                         Randee

Randee –   In no way am I questioning your personal descision on Zoloft…However, I thought I would share my experience with you…I was at 50 mg for 2 weeks…By then I had few side effects (like you)…However, only my depression seemed better…No effect on anxiety…My doc suggested upping to 100 mg…I said fine since I was having few side effects…Within 5 days my anxiety was markedly improved…I was very glad to have upped my dose…I did have renewed side effects, but these lasted only 2 days (really)…It seemed like going from 50-100 was much easier than 0-50…Anyway, like I said, it is your decision, I just wanted you to know about my experience as it might aid your decision one way or the other… Later and good luck, — Charles Phipps

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   I seriously think my pd doc. is nuts.I just came from seeing him and he told me starting today to up my zoloft from 50mgs to 100mgs.He said I was going too slow thats why I don’t feel better yet.I think i’m doing just fine and i’m going to stay at 50mgs for now and find a new doc. I tried to tell him why I was weening slow and he told me there is no risk or side-effects by upping it so high.So I asked him if he ever took an SSRI. He didn’t like that one bit..lol At least they are calling my insurance company today and trying to get zoloft approved.That would be a huge help.I’m still in good spirits though.Not many side-effects on 50mgs. I’m hoping to be breathing better soon.                                         Randee

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  I seriously think my pd doc. is nuts.I just came from seeing him and he told me starting today to up my zoloft from 50mgs to 100mgs.He said I was going too slow thats why I don’t feel better yet.I think i’m doing just fine and i’m going to stay at 50mgs for now and find a new doc. I tried to tell him why I was weening slow and he told me there is no risk or side-effects by upping it so high.So I asked him if he ever took an SSRI. He didn’t like that one bit..lol At least they are calling my insurance company today and trying to get zoloft approved.That would be a huge help.I’m still in good spirits though.Not many side-effects on 50mgs. I’m hoping to be breathing better soon.

Hi Randee, Your Pdoc is more than nuts, and I agree, time  for a new one. I am so glad that you stood up for yourself and defended your right to wean on Zoloft  your way, which is the right way. It makes me so angry when I hear doctors with attitudes like yours. I can only imagine how many people have been turned off to anti-depressants because they started at too high a dose, and couldn`t handle it and got off the med. Hang in there,  you will be feeling better soon. Take care!! Jackie

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Question:

Geno, That is very sad about your wife =(   Is she on meds??? Maybe she should go to a pain center???  I have those terrible migraines also and they do make you feel like chopping your head off as the pain is so severe.  I have compressed nerve at C-5, and I have a lot of the same problems as your wife…It is tough you must find a caring MD to help her with the pain…. All my best, Kim

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<snip I want some doc to actually help me!!!!  Is that so much to expect?  What types of docs have you seen for the occipital neuralgia?  What other diagnoses have you been given?  If anyone has a list of good links for Occipital neuralgia, I would love to have them!

As you and I have discussed, I too was diagnosed with migraines by four or so neurologists. More recently, my internist and my pain doc both believe that most of my headaches are actually occipital neuralgia (ON), particularly due to the specific tender area around the base of my skull. I think that in my case I have gotten a mix of different kinds of headaches. I have certainly had migraines in the past, but I think they have mostly gone away since I had a septal spur (a pointy piece of bone that was perforating my sinus membranes) removed and my deviated septum straightened almost a year ago, to get rid of chronic sinusitis (all of this was probably triggering most of my migraines). I believe that pretty much all I get *now* are headaches from ON. At this point I tend to believe my pain doc; it’s just a feeling I have about my symptoms and how they fit with ON. I certainly know what you mean about docs thinking they are the ONLY ones that can be right! Geez, talk about a God Complex! Many of them don’t seem to believe themselves capable of making mistakes. One of the docs I respected most was the one that said he could not explain my back pain, but that there might be someone else who could; he actually encouraged me to not stop trying for an answer just because he didn’t have it. It’s too bad he didn’t have the experience to really be of continued help to me, because I appreciated his honesty (he also warned me about not being too hasty to pursue a surgical solution – that my pain could always be made worse). I have a few docs who are also willing to admit when they don’t have an answer or solution, and I value them greatly. Any doc that starts trashing the opinions of previous docs, or just plain ignores my history, sets off warning bells in my head, and such docs have never failed to prove themselves arrogant asses in short order. I will let you know what the new doc says on Tuesday! Cherise

I wish you well in finding a Dx in which you can believe; I know how difficult and frustrating this can be when your health and sanity are stake. John — John Martinez "I have a plastic laminated ID card, therefore I am." Visit our humble Home page at http://members.home.net/nojunkmmart2/index.html Remove the nojunk to get my address or URL.

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Thank you John! Your encouragement means a lot to me! Cherise

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The neurosurgeon said that if a nerve block at C2 helps then it is c2 neuropathy.  BUT I say a rheumatologist today who said that I probably have all of the various diagnosis that I have been given.  That my pain is caused by greater occipital nerve, lesser occipital nerve, nerves at c2 and migraines.  He also said that since I have already tried all of the possible treatments and preventatives and he suggested that surgery may only solve a portion of the problem, that I should consider taking narcotics on a regular basis to treat the pain.  He said all of those diagnoses are hard to prove and harder to solve and that treating the pain is the best solution.  He said this today so we will see how it goes.  At least it is great that I don’t have to suffer so much anymore. The big problem with neuropathy, neuralgia and migraines is that there is no way to determine if that is exactly what a person has.  A doc hears the symptoms and classifies it as whatever he or she thinks it MIGHT be. It is really frustrating and I am sorry that your wife has had so much trouble.  Please tell your wife not to give up.  It takes many many doctors and many tries to find something that works and then it usually only works for a period of time before you are back out there trying it all over again. What types of docs has your wife seen? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  My wife wants to know what tests were done to get the diagnosis of c-2 neuropothy ?  She got an injection of Novacaine in the back of the head to migraines, you have O.N. ! Migraines are quick, easy diagnosis’ that many doctors use when they ‘guessing’ without proof. I get sick and tired of the BS that doctors use to pretend they know what they’re talking about. I can tell if a person is psychotic, but I cannot tell you the exact is causing the my computer, but I’m not a meteorologist ! It’s all guessing at first. Doctors need to work alittle harder at finding out really what the problem is, what’s causing it, and fix the problem !! My wife is currently using a TENS unit. It only helps with ‘minor’ headaches, not the big ones. She is very depressed and has talked of killing herself because of the "possible future" she believes thats in store for her. I keep reminding her that all options haven’t been exhausted yet and to not talk or threaten taking her life. I honestly believe that surgery by a specialized neurosurgeon is going to be the ultimate and final solution. I figure that something(obviously)is causing her pain and it’s physical presence is something to be operated on to cure the problem. We are going on year 4 with her headaches and it’s wrecking the both of us. Please reply with any

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Geno sent me an e-mail to ask me to join the discussion and I want you to know that I have not posted in the last few days because I am extremely frustrated with doctors and have not wanted to frustrate anyone else! For the last three years and about $50,000, I have and continue to be diagnosed and treated by some for Migraines, rebound headaches, etc. In the last three months, two docs have diagnosed me without migraines, but with pain from the occipital nerves.  Once called occipital neuralgia and the other called it C2 neuropathy.  Since both wanted to perform surgery, I figured I better find out exactly want I have.  So I saw another neuro.   He said migraines. So at a friends suggestions, I am trying a Rheumatologist on tuesday.  I haven’t seen one of those yet!!! I have tried an enormous amount of things and the most effective was nerve blocks.  But they only last five days and I am sore the first three of those from the injection. So I too am in search of solutions.  I have heard bad things about surgery not being effective and sometimes making it worse!  I am just sick of being diagnosed with different problems and docs thinking that only they can possibly be right.  They are not willing to believe you when you tell them that you have already tried that several times and it did not work. Anyway, so I have rambled and not helped at all.  I am sorry! I want some doc to actually help me!!!!  Is that so much to expect?  What types of docs have you seen for the occipital neuralgia?  What other diagnoses have you been given?  If anyone has a list of good links for Occipital neuralgia, I would love to have them! I will let you know what the new doc says on Tuesday! Cherise Cherise,

  My wife wants to know what tests were done to get the diagnosis of c-2 neuropothy ?  She got an injection of Novacaine in the back of the head to migraines, you have O.N. ! Migraines are quick, easy diagnosis’ that many doctors use when they ‘guessing’ without proof. I get sick and tired of the BS that doctors use to pretend they know what they’re talking about. I can tell if a person is psychotic, but I cannot tell you the exact is causing the computer, but I’m not a meteorologist ! It’s all guessing at first. Doctors need to work alittle harder at finding out really what the problem is, what’s causing it, and fix the problem !! My wife is currently using a TENS unit. It only helps with ‘minor’ headaches, not the big ones. She is very depressed and has talked of killing herself because of the "possible future" she believes thats in store for her. I keep reminding her that all options haven’t been exhausted yet and to not talk or threaten taking her life. I honestly believe that surgery by a specialized neurosurgeon is going to be the ultimate and final solution. I figure that something(obviously)is causing her pain and it’s physical presence is something to be operated on to cure the problem. We are going on year 4 with her headaches and it’s wrecking the both of us. Please reply with any

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Cherise. Few people understand how much pain we have!! Sure HOPE your Dr. will understand and help you on Tuesday!! I said a prayer for you. Hope that’s OK with you?      CW CARES – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Geno sent me an e-mail to ask me to join the discussion and I want you to know that I have not posted in the last few days because I am extremely frustrated with doctors and have not wanted to frustrate anyone else! For the last three years and about $50,000, I have and continue to be diagnosed and treated by some for Migraines, rebound headaches, etc. In the last three months, two docs have diagnosed me without migraines, but with pain from the occipital nerves.  Once called occipital neuralgia and the other called it C2 neuropathy.  Since both wanted to perform surgery, I figured I better find out exactly want I have.  So I saw another neuro.   He said migraines. So at a friends suggestions, I am trying a Rheumatologist on tuesday.  I haven’t seen one of those yet!!! I have tried an enormous amount of things and the most effective was nerve blocks.  But they only last five days and I am sore the first three of those from the injection. So I too am in search of solutions.  I have heard bad things about surgery not being effective and sometimes making it worse!  I am just sick of being diagnosed with different problems and docs thinking that only they can possibly be right.  They are not willing to believe you when you tell them that you have already tried that several times and it did not work. Anyway, so I have rambled and not helped at all.  I am sorry! I want some doc to actually help me!!!!  Is that so much to expect?  What types of docs have you seen for the occipital neuralgia?  What other diagnoses have you been given?  If anyone has a list of good links for Occipital neuralgia, I would love to have them! I will let you know what the new doc says on Tuesday! Cherise

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Have you visited this site? Http://www.medtronic.com/neuro/apt – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – John ,   Thanks for responding. I’ve read similar data about implanted electrodes like you previously descibed. My wife got fitted for her external TENS unit today and so far is feeling somewhat more relieved, however I believe like any good pain medication, the body will find a way to adjust to the extra electrical stimulation and the pain will return full strength. I am not optimistic about the TENS units’ ability to completely remove her discomfort. Like you mentioned, I too believe that the medical community is every bit IGNORANT about the treatments for neuralgia cases. I, on the other hand, believe it is quite simple. If your electric window in you use. The problem is a damaged nerve root or bundle. She never had this problem prior to her car accident and just because it’s not so evident on a MRI doesn’t mean that nothing is wrong. MRIs don’t find pain. I’ll keep us with future updates on my wife’s condition hoping to find the right treatment for her and everyone else. However, please watch out for doctors that are only concerned with the quality of your insurance !!

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I suffer from occiputal neuralgia, too asa result from a rear end car accident in 1991 and a fall on a train that worsened the C5-C6 disk degeneration. My complete neurological workup consisted of MRI of cervical spine, examination, and EMG nerve conduction study.  The EMG revealed nerve damage at C6 right nerve root. The nerve conduction study is also an important piece of the puzzle because the test addresses nerve impulse-MRI only reveals muscle,spinal cord and bone tissue matter at the celluar level. Insist on an EMG !!!!! Good luck! Mary

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Geno sent me an e-mail to ask me to join the discussion and I want you to know that I have not posted in the last few days because I am extremely frustrated with doctors and have not wanted to frustrate anyone else! For the last three years and about $50,000, I have and continue to be diagnosed and treated by some for Migraines, rebound headaches, etc. In the last three months, two docs have diagnosed me without migraines, but with pain from the occipital nerves.  Once called occipital neuralgia and the other called it C2 neuropathy.  Since both wanted to perform surgery, I figured I better find out exactly want I have.  So I saw another neuro.   He said migraines. So at a friends suggestions, I am trying a Rheumatologist on tuesday.  I haven’t seen one of those yet!!! I have tried an enormous amount of things and the most effective was nerve blocks.  But they only last five days and I am sore the first three of those from the injection. So I too am in search of solutions.  I have heard bad things about surgery not being effective and sometimes making it worse!  I am just sick of being diagnosed with different problems and docs thinking that only they can possibly be right.  They are not willing to believe you when you tell them that you have already tried that several times and it did not work. Anyway, so I have rambled and not helped at all.  I am sorry! I want some doc to actually help me!!!!  Is that so much to expect?  What types of docs have you seen for the occipital neuralgia?  What other diagnoses have you been given?  If anyone has a list of good links for Occipital neuralgia, I would love to have them! I will let you know what the new doc says on Tuesday! Cherise

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John ,   Thanks for responding. I’ve read similar data about implanted electrodes like you previously descibed. My wife got fitted for her external TENS unit today and so far is feeling somewhat more relieved, however I believe like any good pain medication, the body will find a way to adjust to the extra electrical stimulation and the pain will return full strength. I am not optimistic about the TENS units’ ability to completely remove her discomfort. Like you mentioned, I too believe that the medical community is every bit IGNORANT about the treatments for neuralgia cases. I, on the other hand, believe it is quite simple. If your electric window in you use. The problem is a damaged nerve root or bundle. She never had this problem prior to her car accident and just because it’s not so evident on a MRI doesn’t mean that nothing is wrong. MRIs don’t find pain. I’ll keep us with future updates on my wife’s condition hoping to find the right treatment for her and everyone else. However, please watch out for doctors that are only concerned with the quality of your insurance !!

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<snipped details of occipital neuralgia problems and would appreciate any new treatment knowledge of any kind. I read that you are thinking of using a TENS unit. Are you using one now ? Do you know of anyone that is ? I feel that surgery is really the only outlet, but my wife wants to try everything first. We feel she has damage in the C2 area in the back of her head and that doctors have just missed it on MRIs. Please respond.

Geno, I am sorry to hear about your wife’s troubles; it sounds like her head pain is more intense and harder to control than mine. I have been finding that I always have a tender area near the base of my skull and along the side of my head, in the back. I can get temporary relief (or at least diminished pain) many times by pressing or massaging these areas. I have tried using the TENS unit, and have had some success with it; the problem is that, unless I start shaving around the base of skull, there is too much hair (I keep my hair cut the same as when I an Air Force officer – short) to have the electrode stick well, so I pretty much have to lay down on it to keep it in place. When it is working properly, I get the sensation that the muscle stimulation from the TENS "masks" the feelings of pain, but I can’t say how much pain it might be able to mask. My doc, while not advocating it right now, said that, if things became unbearable, I could have electrodes  (and a signal-generating unit) implanted. This would allow me have the same effect as the TENS, but without it falling off. This is more drastic than I am willing to do right now, but I am comforted in knowing that there is *something* more permanent available. I have also found some relief from a massage therapist who is very good at trigger-point release; it hurts more while she is doing it, but I feel better for hours because she is able to loosen up the muscles that get so tensed up. As far as surgery for your wife goes, have you had spinal/neck specialists read her MRI films directly? I know that you have been through doc after doc, as many of here have done, but how many do you feel took a serious look for structural cause for the neuralgia? Has she ever tried epidural injections or something similar? It seems, in principle, that if a specific nerve root can be identified as the source of the problems, that she become a candidate for an implanted medication pump (I am just brainstorming here). Does she get help from wearing a soft cervical collar, or from muscle relaxants (e.g, baclofen, soma, skelaxen, etc.)? I wish I could give more answers and hope for improvement. I have gathered from what I have read and been told that a significant number of Occ. Neuralgia cases are not really explained by the present understanding of the medical community (i.e., they can’t point to bony spur or someting as the irritant for the nerve. In this way it is similar to myofascial pain syndrome (which I also have), fibromyalgia, and chronic fatigue syndrome. All these ailments (and I am sure there are more) are now accepted to be real, physical problems that can be definitively diagnosed by the right specialist (physical medicine specialists seem to have more training in many of these things than most), but the causes are poorly understood which means that there are no well-defined treatments either. In the words of a good doc I know, who went through a very difficult medical problem that latest many years, we need to hope that we can just last long enough for medical science to catch up to us. Take care, John — John Martinez "I have a plastic laminated ID card, therefore I am." Visit our humble Home page at http://members.home.net/nojunkmmart2/index.html Remove the nojunk to get my address or URL.

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botox injections have been shown to be very effective for occipital neuralgia – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just recently found out that Occipital Neuralgia was what I had.  I have had nerve blocks that last about five days.  Of course, I am sore from the procedure for three of those five. I am looking for a doc who has suggestions on a more permanent solution. They all go right to surgery, but I would like to know all of my options. What about you?  What have you heard as possible solutions? Cherise I am still trying to find someone to treat me. Like you, I spent most of the last year assuming I was experiencing a form of migraine. Right now I can’t find a neuro to treat me (they freak out when they hear of my meds for my back pain), so I am seeing my pain doc tomorrow to see what ideas he has. What kind of surgery has been suggested to you? What kind of doc was it that suggested it? John — John Martinez "I have a plastic laminated ID card, therefore I am." Visit our humble Home page at http://members.home.net/nojunkmmart2/index.html Remove the nojunk to get my address or URL.

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John, One doc was an anesthesiologist who specialized in pain management.  He wanted to do Rhizitomy, where they freeze the nerves.  But for a pain doc, he would not help ease the pain in the meantime with pain meds. The other is a neurosurgeon who wants to remove the ganglion part of the nerves. Keep me up to date on what you learn. I had trouble e-mailing you.  Where are you looking for a doc?  What Area? (you can e-mail me the answers) Thanks, Cherise – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I am still trying to find someone to treat me. Like you, I spent most of the last year assuming I was experiencing a form of migraine. Right now I can’t find a neuro to treat me (they freak out when they hear of my meds for my back pain), so I am seeing my pain doc tomorrow to see what ideas he has. What kind of surgery has been suggested to you? What kind of doc was it that suggested it? John — John Martinez "I have a plastic laminated ID card, therefore I am." Visit our humble Home page at

http://members.home.net/nojunkmmart2/index.html – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Remove the nojunk to get my address or URL.

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Mike, How does this work?  What are the risks? Cherise botox injections have been shown to be very effective for occipital

neuralgia

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botox is being used in a wide variety of neurological and muscluar disorders.. basically botox is injected into a muscle at which time the toxin blocks the impulses of the nerves as it reaches the muscle. It takes a series of injections to be effective and the results are temporary, usually lasting 3-6 months. The risks are the same for any invasive procedure, ie, risk of infection at the injection sites, reaction to sedation (if used), its usually done under consious sedation. i’ve heard it being used to treat everything from cerebral palsy, rsd inversion, peripheral neuropathy to plastic surgery. one thing to note is the actual organism is not injected so there is no risk of botulism. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Mike, How does this work?  What are the risks? Cherise botox injections have been shown to be very effective for occipital neuralgia

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John, One doc was an anesthesiologist who specialized in pain management.  He wanted to do Rhizitomy, where they freeze the nerves.  But for a pain doc, he would not help ease the pain in the meantime with pain meds. The other is a neurosurgeon who wants to remove the ganglion part of the nerves. Keep me up to date on what you learn.

So far I have only found that I have no "structural" explanation for the neuralgia, just pain. I am suprised that your docs would leap to such invasive and irreversible procedures so quickly (if I understand the timing of all this correctly) after making the diagnosis; they sound pretty aggressive (maybe too aggressive). My pain doc is having me try electrical stimulation (using a TENS unit) to combat the pain; I am not certain yet how much it helps, it will be trying it out more over the weekend. I don’t know quite what he has in mind to do if it does work for me. I had trouble e-mailing you.  Where are you looking for a doc?  What Area? (you can e-mail me the answers) Thanks, Cherise

– John Martinez "I have a plastic laminated ID card, therefore I am." Visit our humble Home page at http://members.home.net/nojunkmmart2/index.html Remove the nojunk to get my address or URL.

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John, One doc was an anesthesiologist who specialized in pain management.  He wanted to do Rhizitomy, where they freeze the nerves.  But for a pain doc, he would not help ease the pain in the meantime with pain meds. The other is a neurosurgeon who wants to remove the ganglion part of the nerves. Keep me up to date on what you learn.

Hello Everyone,   My name is Geno. I do not suffer from occipital neuralgia, but my wife a rear-end collision that forced her head,neck and really her entire body into the back seat of her old car. This whiplashing effect brought on instant headaches immeasurable to the average person. I know, I live with her. I have seen her go through doctors left and right, medications (neurontin, zoloft, xanax, fiornal, loracet, soma, vicadin, midrin, depakote,etc.,etc.—to name a very few, and clinics (headache,physical therapy and now sports medicine). I have to type this for her because after a while her headaches become more severe due to concentration,etc. I went web searching for newsgroups, websites, etc., that could possibly give us answers that doctors appear to miss. My wife recently went through a procedure that would temporarily FREEZE the nerve in the back of her head causing her extreme headaches,unfortunately, the current doctor while probing to find the nerve caused her such pain that the procedure had to be stopped. I told her this was insane and that this procedure wasn’t worth the pain if it was to come back in a few months. The doctors , realizing that meds would not control the pain, suggested nerve blocks (shots to temporarily suppress the nerve actions). One was tried. The pain was back in 24 hours. I’ve read much about this neuralgia, mostly from patients and doctors from Harvard Medical School. My wife has contemplated suicide in the past because the headaches wouldn’t go away. I love my wife and would appreciate any new treatment knowledge of any kind. I read that you are thinking of using a TENS unit. Are you using one now ? Do you know of anyone that is ? I feel that surgery is really the only outlet, but my wife wants to try everything first. We feel she has damage in the C2 area in the back of her head and that doctors have just missed it on MRIs. Please respond. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So far I have only found that I have no "structural" explanation for the neuralgia, just pain. I am suprised that your docs would leap to such invasive and irreversible procedures so quickly (if I understand the timing of all this correctly) after making the diagnosis; they sound pretty aggressive (maybe too aggressive). My pain doc is having me try electrical stimulation (using a TENS unit) to combat the pain; I am not certain yet how much it helps, it will be trying it out more over the weekend. I don’t know quite what he has in mind to do if it does work for me. I had trouble e-mailing you.  Where are you looking for a doc?  What Area? (you can e-mail me the answers) Thanks, Cherise — John Martinez "I have a plastic laminated ID card, therefore I am." Visit our humble Home page at http://members.home.net/nojunkmmart2/index.html Remove the nojunk to get my address or URL.

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I just recently found out that Occipital Neuralgia was what I had.  I have had nerve blocks that last about five days.  Of course, I am sore from the procedure for three of those five. I am looking for a doc who has suggestions on a more permanent solution. They all go right to surgery, but I would like to know all of my options. What about you?  What have you heard as possible solutions? Cherise

I am still trying to find someone to treat me. Like you, I spent most of the last year assuming I was experiencing a form of migraine. Right now I can’t find a neuro to treat me (they freak out when they hear of my meds for my back pain), so I am seeing my pain doc tomorrow to see what ideas he has. What kind of surgery has been suggested to you? What kind of doc was it that suggested it? John — John Martinez "I have a plastic laminated ID card, therefore I am." Visit our humble Home page at http://members.home.net/nojunkmmart2/index.html Remove the nojunk to get my address or URL.

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I just recently found out that Occipital Neuralgia was what I had.  I have had nerve blocks that last about five days.  Of course, I am sore from the procedure for three of those five. I am looking for a doc who has suggestions on a more permanent solution. They all go right to surgery, but I would like to know all of my options. What about you?  What have you heard as possible solutions? Cherise

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I went to the pain clinic at Cedars-Sinai for over a year.  My doc was very compassionate, but unfortunately treated my migraines for a year, seeing them once a week at $250 per 15 minute visit.  Only for me to find out that I do not have migraines, I have occipital neuralgia.  If they had only tried a nerve block, they could have saved me a bundle and a year of extreme suffering.  So as you can see I am EXTREMELY FRUSTRATED with the care that I received from Cedars. Please let me know if you find any doc that is outstanding in Los Angeles. Cherise

Cherise Sorry to hear it took so long to figure this one out. I am in a similar situation WRT headaches and occipital neuralgia. In my case, I tried a nerve block, but it only helped while the block was still working (about 6 hours) and the pain came right back (w/ added soreness from the injection). How are you treating this condition, now that you know what it is? Do you know of any more "permanent" treatments to relieve this type of problem? Thanks, John — John Martinez "I have a plastic laminated ID card, therefore I am." Visit our humble Home page at http://members.home.net/nojunkmmart2/index.html Remove the nojunk to get my address or URL.

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I went to the pain clinic at Cedars-Sinai for over a year.  My doc was very compassionate, but unfortunately treated my migraines for a year, seeing them once a week at $250 per 15 minute visit.  Only for me to find out that I do not have migraines, I have occipital neuralgia.  If they had only tried a nerve block, they could have saved me a bundle and a year of extreme suffering.  So as you can see I am EXTREMELY FRUSTRATED with the care that I received from Cedars. Please let me know if you find any doc that is outstanding in Los Angeles. Cherise – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The pain clinic at Cedars-Sinai has a good reputation.

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The pain clinic at Cedars-Sinai has a good reputation. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi to all of you and happy new year. I’m new in this group or any news group for that matter. I’ve been taking vicodin for my pain pretty long term and belong to pretty crappy health insurance group.  And never found a doctor that will really deal with my back problem.  I’ve had very sever injuries in my life most of them to my back such as car accidents and very violent robberies that I was a victim of that almost killed me more than once.  Needless to say that I live in los angeles.  I stopped taking the vicodin about 2 1/2 to 3 1/2 weeks ago because I was sick of taking meds ( my own choice offcourse)  I did not suffer any great withdrawall symptoms of any kind actually non except for the unbarebale pain offcourse.  I found a pain clinic that was listed on some list on the web that was closest to me and went in.  And the way that I got treated there was just unbelievably discusting.  The doctor there told me that he was sure that I am some kind of drug addict  and acted like I had no pain in his opinion.  While I haven’t been taking meds for a while out of my own choice and never asked him for any.  I think that my only crime was that I was not of Korean origin as was he and all the patients that I saw there.  Which leads me to believe that, that was the reason that he didn’t even want to deal with me.  Pretty depressing.  After about 3 1/2 weeks of not taking any meds and barely being able to get out of bed (mind you I need to work in order to support myself and veryone who is dependent on me).  I went back to my medical group and asked to have more meds until my next MRI.  And they refused.  Saying that I’ve been taking it too often even though I actually took it a lot less than what they told me to.  Now I am in horrible pain and can barely get out of bed.  I have no idea how I will go to work on monday and deal with my business and customers when I am in so much pain. Does anybody have any suggestions what to do I’m pretty much lost for answers at this point. Thanks for any help Tom

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I would go to an emergency room, get the medication necessary to function. Then I would fire my "medical group" and complain to someone in authority with your insurance company. Demand  referral to a pain specialist, and meanwhile find a competent doctor to evaluate my long term needs. If that fails I would recommend filing a formal complaint with any regulatory agencies in california that deal with malpractice etc. It pays to be assertive. Jim Mas rapido! http://members.aol.com/Motomij/yourhere.html

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Hi to all of you and happy new year. I’m new in this group or any news group for that matter. I’ve been taking vicodin for my pain pretty long term and belong to pretty crappy health insurance group.  And never found a doctor that will really deal with my back problem.  I’ve had very sever injuries in my life most of them to my back such as car accidents and very violent robberies that I was a victim of that almost killed me more than once.  Needless to say that I live in los angeles.  I stopped taking the vicodin about 2 1/2 to 3 1/2 weeks ago because I was sick of taking meds ( my own choice offcourse)  I did not suffer any great withdrawall symptoms of any kind actually non except for the unbarebale pain offcourse.  I found a pain clinic that was listed on some list on the web that was closest to me and went in.  And the way that I got treated there was just unbelievably discusting.  The doctor there told me that he was sure that I am some kind of drug addict  and acted like I had no pain in his opinion.  While I haven’t been taking meds for a while out of my own choice and never asked him for any.  I think that my only crime was that I was not of Korean origin as was he and all the patients that I saw there.  Which leads me to believe that, that was the reason that he didn’t even want to deal with me.  Pretty depressing.  After about 3 1/2 weeks of not taking any meds and barely being able to get out of bed (mind you I need to work in order to support myself and veryone who is dependent on me).  I went back to my medical group and asked to have more meds until my next MRI.  And they refused.  Saying that I’ve been taking it too often even though I actually took it a lot less than what they told me to.  Now I am in horrible pain and can barely get out of bed.  I have no idea how I will go to work on monday and deal with my business and customers when I am in so much pain. Does anybody have any suggestions what to do I’m pretty much lost for answers at this point. Thanks for any help Tom

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I have never had so many problems witha vehicle till i got this ford.. first it was a thermostat, then i had to replace 2 oxygen sensors, which supposidly go out religously at 40,000 miles on explorers, then cam the water pump.. whats next? couple hundred dollares every couple weeks is kinda pricey, i think i may have to go to a honda.. or i shoulda at least kept my chevy pickup.

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I have never had so many problems witha vehicle till i got this ford.. first it was a thermostat, then i had to replace 2 oxygen sensors, which supposidly go out religously at 40,000 miles on explorers, then cam the water pump.. whats next? couple hundred dollares every couple weeks is kinda pricey, i think i may have to go to a honda.. or i shoulda at least kept my chevy pickup.

What year and engine??? You bought it used?? or New? Why do you thnk you need to go to Honda (Rodeo)? Its not even really a Honda. Total in repairs I have spent less than $200 (not including tires, or clutch) in the entire 5 years Ive owned the vehicle…… BTW, 50k-75k is about right for O2 sensors…. — Paul O’Gorman   Boeing (BCAG) 777 division   93 Explorer Sport-R 4×4 97 Neon SOHC 16v

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I have 91 Explorer that has not been to the shop except for some early recalls (none of which actually required anything to be done except change the radius arm bushings).  Only cost other than gas has been oil changes with filters, antifreeze change out, shocks, front brakes, and a strap to fasten a loose shield on the catalytic converter. Just added a new 97 to the garage.  Hope it is as good as the 91 was.

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hello everyone.  i am posting again for some advice (maybe some encouragement) my love (who has BP) is having second thoughts about us.  she is not sure if it is the way she truly feels or just another episode.  it really has me scared i dont want to loose her.  if any of you have any advice im all ears. thank you

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hello everyone.  i am posting again for some advice (maybe some encouragement) my love (who has BP) is having second thoughts about us.  she is not sure if it is the way she truly feels or just another episode.  it really has me scared i dont want to loose her.  if any of you have any advice im all ears. thank you

I am newly on meds and I have been on the other side of this a lot.  The best thing you can do is let her know you’re there for her and here’s the important part, *BACK* *OFF*.  Let her have her space to decide what’s right for her.  When my man tries to affectionate or make relatiohship talk when I’m in an episode I want to tear his face off and it makes me want to get out of the relationship immediately just to not have to deal with it.  Yeah, I have a long trail of broken hearts because of this.  Your chances are a little better since she knows she is BP and most of my life I did not. Best of luck, Aurora

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hello everyone.  i am posting again for some advice (maybe some encouragement) my love (who has BP) is having second thoughts about us.  she is not sure if it is the way she truly feels or just another episode.  it really has me scared i dont want to loose her.  if any of you have any advice im all ears. thank you

Hi b329a   I’ve lost count of the number of times that second thoughts have occurred in our 15 years.  I’m not going to say that it’s all Bi-Polar or Borderline Personality Disorder (my wifes dual diagnosis) but if you can’t think of anything you’ve done lately, or anything you haven’t done lately (me doing the gardening is a common one) or should that be not doing the gardening – I’ve lost my machete. then wonder upon the just another episode.  I don’t have the fortune of being able to have Nolene’s analysis of the situation. She’s VERY black and white when depressed.  These episodes with us only occur during Nolene’s depressions but at the time they are very serious.  I’ve found I have to step back and let things run their course.  If she starts throwing my things out then I’ll worry.  Fortunately hasn’t got to that yet.   Of course I’m just a great guy <grin  ??gloat? brag? lie?? In good times I’m often asked why I put up with her. I’ll figure out the answer on day (well that;’s what I tell her) Tony

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Thanks Marge, I don’t remember doing this but then when you are putting along you probable don’t know you did this unless someone points it out to you as you did or like you finally figure it out.?Will make sure I don’t do this just in casse this was what caused it.—— Marge Sulla wrote in – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -The only time that has ever happened with my mail (and it did not affect my news groups) was when I opened an attachment instead of saving it and opening later. That happened when I was using Netscape 3. Now I’ve got MSIE 4.0 and I’ve not had that happen. No one could tell me why. After 3 times of this, I finally got a clue and no longer opened attachments like Word documents while still in the mail system; I saved to a file and opened later. Sorry I can’t be of more help than that. Marge S. I have Norton Anti Virus and yet sometime last night or today everything in my sent mail and delete box was gone, gone, gone. The ngs were gone and had to be totally reloaded and now there are very few posts for the Feb 3. I called MSN and they said I would need to talk to technical (so what eles is new for them to say? The last call I made to them cost $13.00. The month before that I made 4 calls and finally told whoever was on the phone I wanted to speak to a supervisor who told me "Yes, we’ve had problems for a number of days and it all finally crashed." so you can understand why I don’t want to call them back anymore. There was no power outage, the computer was off, no one eles used the computer, nothing new was added or downloaded  so can someone tell me why this happened?

Response:

The only time that has ever happened with my mail (and it did not affect my news groups) was when I opened an attachment instead of saving it and opening later. That happened when I was using Netscape 3. Now I’ve got MSIE 4.0 and I’ve not had that happen. No one could tell me why. After 3 times of this, I finally got a clue and no longer opened attachments like Word documents while still in the mail system; I saved to a file and opened later. Sorry I can’t be of more help than that. Marge S. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have Norton Anti Virus and yet sometime last night or today everything in my sent mail and delete box was gone, gone, gone. The ngs were gone and had to be totally reloaded and now there are very few posts for the Feb 3. I called MSN and they said I would need to talk to technical (so what eles is new for them to say? The last call I made to them cost $13.00. The month before that I made 4 calls and finally told whoever was on the phone I wanted to speak to a supervisor who told me "Yes, we’ve had problems for a number of days and it all finally crashed." so you can understand why I don’t want to call them back anymore. There was no power outage, the computer was off, no one eles used the computer, nothing new was added or downloaded  so can someone tell me why this happened?

Response:

I have Norton Anti Virus and yet sometime last night or today everything in my sent mail and delete box was gone, gone, gone. The ngs were gone and had to be totally reloaded and now there are very few posts for the Feb 3. I called MSN and they said I would need to talk to technical (so what eles is new for them to say? The last call I made to them cost $13.00. The month before that I made 4 calls and finally told whoever was on the phone I wanted to speak to a supervisor who told me "Yes, we’ve had problems for a number of days and it all finally crashed." so you can understand why I don’t want to call them back anymore. There was no power outage, the computer was off, no one eles used the computer, nothing new was added or downloaded  so can someone tell me why this happened?

Response:

Thanks Marge, I don’t remember doing this but then when you are putting along you probable don’t know you did this unless someone points it out to you as you did or like you finally figure it out.?Will make sure I don’t do this just in casse this was what caused it.—— Marge Sulla wrote in – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -The only time that has ever happened with my mail (and it did not affect my news groups) was when I opened an attachment instead of saving it and opening later. That happened when I was using Netscape 3. Now I’ve got MSIE 4.0 and I’ve not had that happen. No one could tell me why. After 3 times of this, I finally got a clue and no longer opened attachments like Word documents while still in the mail system; I saved to a file and opened later. Sorry I can’t be of more help than that. Marge S. I have Norton Anti Virus and yet sometime last night or today everything in my sent mail and delete box was gone, gone, gone. The ngs were gone and had to be totally reloaded and now there are very few posts for the Feb 3. I called MSN and they said I would need to talk to technical (so what eles is new for them to say? The last call I made to them cost $13.00. The month before that I made 4 calls and finally told whoever was on the phone I wanted to speak to a supervisor who told me "Yes, we’ve had problems for a number of days and it all finally crashed." so you can understand why I don’t want to call them back anymore. There was no power outage, the computer was off, no one eles used the computer, nothing new was added or downloaded  so can someone tell me why this happened?

Response:

The only time that has ever happened with my mail (and it did not affect my news groups) was when I opened an attachment instead of saving it and opening later. That happened when I was using Netscape 3. Now I’ve got MSIE 4.0 and I’ve not had that happen. No one could tell me why. After 3 times of this, I finally got a clue and no longer opened attachments like Word documents while still in the mail system; I saved to a file and opened later. Sorry I can’t be of more help than that. Marge S. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have Norton Anti Virus and yet sometime last night or today everything in my sent mail and delete box was gone, gone, gone. The ngs were gone and had to be totally reloaded and now there are very few posts for the Feb 3. I called MSN and they said I would need to talk to technical (so what eles is new for them to say? The last call I made to them cost $13.00. The month before that I made 4 calls and finally told whoever was on the phone I wanted to speak to a supervisor who told me "Yes, we’ve had problems for a number of days and it all finally crashed." so you can understand why I don’t want to call them back anymore. There was no power outage, the computer was off, no one eles used the computer, nothing new was added or downloaded  so can someone tell me why this happened?

Response:

I have Norton Anti Virus and yet sometime last night or today everything in my sent mail and delete box was gone, gone, gone. The ngs were gone and had to be totally reloaded and now there are very few posts for the Feb 3. I called MSN and they said I would need to talk to technical (so what eles is new for them to say? The last call I made to them cost $13.00. The month before that I made 4 calls and finally told whoever was on the phone I wanted to speak to a supervisor who told me "Yes, we’ve had problems for a number of days and it all finally crashed." so you can understand why I don’t want to call them back anymore. There was no power outage, the computer was off, no one eles used the computer, nothing new was added or downloaded  so can someone tell me why this happened?

Response:

I am looking for people who have the following: 94 Vision 93 Dodge Dakota I am trying to document problems with those vehicles. Please try to be as accurate as possible. If you know of any other news groups where I could gather information I would appreciate that as well. thank you.

Response:

I am looking for people who have the following: 94 Vision 93 Dodge Dakota I am trying to document problems with those vehicles. Please try to be as accurate as possible.

I have a 1994 Eagle Vision TSi. Fully loaded. Love the car, however…  - two a/c evaporator replacements.  - one a/c condensor replacement.  - one a/c compressor replacement.  - transmission replaced after complaint of harsh/bumpy shifting. Numerous other "little" problems with the first transmission like rough torque converter lock-up, transfer chain rattle and so forth. Replacement tranny has been fine.  - power antenna replaced (wouldn’t retract fully).  - front brake rotors replaced at about 18,000km because warped. Still fine now at 95,000 km.  - fuel rail replaced (TSB) because of rattle sound.  - front c/v (axle) joints replaced because of accellerate/decellerate clunk.  - tranny cooler lines replaced twice: first time small drip, second time it exploded and pissed tranny fluid all over the engine compartment. All of this has been covered by my Gold Plan extended warranty. Hope this helps…     Mike Knox – Reply to: mknox "at" ican "dot" net                      

Response:

I am looking for people who have the following: 94 Vision 93 Dodge Dakota I am trying to document problems with those vehicles. Please try to be as accurate as possible. If you know of any other news groups where I could gather information I would appreciate that as well. thank you.

If you haven’t done it yet, go to: http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/problems/ and click on CONSUMER COMPLAINTS. — James A. Jones N5LQM Team OS/2 Baton Rouge, LA

Response:

I am looking for people who have the following: 94 Vision 93 Dodge Dakota I am trying to document problems with those vehicles. Please try to be as accurate as possible. If you know of any other news groups where I could gather information I would appreciate that as well. thank you.

Response:

I am looking for people who have the following: 94 Vision 93 Dodge Dakota I am trying to document problems with those vehicles. Please try to be as accurate as possible.

I have a 1994 Eagle Vision TSi. Fully loaded. Love the car, however…  - two a/c evaporator replacements.  - one a/c condensor replacement.  - one a/c compressor replacement.  - transmission replaced after complaint of harsh/bumpy shifting. Numerous other "little" problems with the first transmission like rough torque converter lock-up, transfer chain rattle and so forth. Replacement tranny has been fine.  - power antenna replaced (wouldn’t retract fully).  - front brake rotors replaced at about 18,000km because warped. Still fine now at 95,000 km.  - fuel rail replaced (TSB) because of rattle sound.  - front c/v (axle) joints replaced because of accellerate/decellerate clunk.  - tranny cooler lines replaced twice: first time small drip, second time it exploded and pissed tranny fluid all over the engine compartment. All of this has been covered by my Gold Plan extended warranty. Hope this helps…     Mike Knox – Reply to: mknox "at" ican "dot" net                      

Response:

I am looking for people who have the following: 94 Vision 93 Dodge Dakota I am trying to document problems with those vehicles. Please try to be as accurate as possible. If you know of any other news groups where I could gather information I would appreciate that as well. thank you.

If you haven’t done it yet, go to: http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/problems/ and click on CONSUMER COMPLAINTS. — James A. Jones N5LQM Team OS/2 Baton Rouge, LA

Response:

Question:

ENOUGH WITH THE DAMN ACCESS DEBATE THREADS! Living in the UK, I frequently unsubscribe from rec.boats.paddle because there’s too much which isn’t relevant to the UK paddler.   When I resubscribe (as I did last month), I’m always delighted when I find that Scott Weiser is still winding up paddlers, especially in the US. Best wishes

What a compliment.  Many thanks…. Regards, Scott Weiser ****** "I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend upon my friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" ****** http://www.dimensional.com/~weiser/ Copyright 1998 by Scott Weiser Under the UCC, by the act of transmitting any commercial e-mail advertisment to this address, you are expressly contracting with me in my professional capacity for a consultation on the ad’s effectiveness and you expressly agree to pay to me the sum of $250.00 for each such consultation within 10 days of my report to the original sending address.  You further expressly agree that all actions for recovery of fees owed shall be subject solely to the laws of the State of Colorado, which shall have sole jurisdiction.

Response:

ENOUGH WITH THE DAMN ACCESS DEBATE THREADS!

Living in the UK, I frequently unsubscribe from rec.boats.paddle because there’s too much which isn’t relevant to the UK paddler.   When I resubscribe (as I did last month), I’m always delighted when I find that Scott Weiser is still winding up paddlers, especially in the US. Best wishes Keith — |/| |_  |_) |_) /    /   canoeing instead of climbing when I |  | |__ | | /    __/  realised I could swim but not fly!"

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It’s all well and good to say that you, one individual boater, does no identifiable harm, but this ignores the impacts of scale, and when a hundred, or a thousand, or ten thousand boaters use the area, the cumulative impacts become significant.  Just look at the Grand Canyon. yes – and that’s why most public lands that incur use impacts are placed in management plans. These plans seek to find the right balance – though I’ll admit it can be arbitrary – especially when it comes to mulltiple-use determinations. It’s a delicate balance of the two, but remember that preserving to pass stewardship on does *not* necessarily mean passing it to the public who want to use the land for recreation. indeed. the ‘public’ is the government. All land public or private is regulation by Federal, State, and local laws that prevent land-owners from using their land when the impacts of such use affect the public. If you don’t believe this.. try something like a 1000 head feed-lot on your property… or placer mining… or eve condos… none of these will you do without a ‘permit’ and the government decides on behalf of the public if your proposal is ‘in the public interest’. Some folks of late consider these ‘takings’ but underlying ‘public interest’ concept is intact.

This is true, and I’ve never denied the validity of properly constructed land-use law, but *restricting* a property owner’s use to protect the health, welfare and safety of the public is substantially different from *appropriating* his property for the use of the public. But this is true ONLY IF the 100 cattle *do* damage the riverbank. Such impacts are not really comparative in nature.  Negative impacts cause by paddlers are not "better", or "less negative" impacts simply because they are caused by a paddler instead of a cow, they stand on their own, and when those impacts are unnecessary to begin with, they are that much more improper. hmmm.. they *are* comparative in terms of impacts… whether it is recreation, farming, mining.. all of these distill down to impacts that can be quantified in terms of water quality, habitat destruction, etc.  

Yes, but an unnecessary impact is an unnecessary impact, no matter how small it may be. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Cattle may cause negative impacts, which can be mitigated by proper management practices, but cattle are *necessary* impacts in most cases, because they are what pay the taxes and create the profits that are used to continue to preserve the area.   It’s all well and good to say "cattle-free in 2003" or whatever (though this mostly applies to federal lands) but the bills have to get paid somehow.     I suppose when paddlers fork over the thousands of dollars a year to pay the taxes and maintain the property, then I’ll consider allowing them to trespass.   Until then, their impacts, however slight, are *not necessary* to the preservation of the resource, and therefore they are justifiably banned. "can be mitigated by proper management practices" leaves it up to the landowner whoever that happens to be at a given time. this does not work when money is involved. Many landowners justify the destruction of the land they own for ‘economic benefits’. You are not unilaterally entitled to un-regulated economic activity just because you own the land. Your activity has to be compatible with the ‘public interest’ as there is hardly anything (economic)  you can do on your property that won’t ultimately affect the public. There are thousands and thousands of local, state, federal laws that restrict you every which way from Sunday. You may consider recreation not necessary – the public may think otherwise – the same goes for what you think is ‘necessary’. If you public disagrees with you then you may be restricted.

Absolutely correct, but the fact that the government may regulate my activities in the public interest has no nexus to my ability to regulate YOUR activities on my land.  As we have seen, even the government recognizes the impacts of recreationalists on public waters and has chosen to regulate them as well.  I’m not sure what your point is. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  I’am also amused by the ’scaring the wildlife’ argument – somewhat because there may be a ‘hint’ of truth for some species but how many species in the last few decades have been not only ’scared’ but just plain wiped-out because the habitat they lived on was used by the landowner for ‘other purposes’? Again, you are comparing apples and oranges.  The fact that species and habitat may have been impacted by landowners is a broad generalization and an irrelevant comparison.   In my case this is not the case, as is true in many other places, and you cannot claim that your impacts are legitimate merely because other impacts occur. Your impacts stand alone, on their own merits, and you are not excused by the bad behavior of others.   Using your logic, you should be able to toss beer cans on the bank, leave rubbish around and cut down trees for firewood just because somebody else does so somewhere else. That’s fallacious logic at best. I follow the consistency argument and agree but behavior is governed by law whether it occurs on private or public property – though different laws may apply depending on the behavior – for instance some usually can be arrested for ’speeding on your property’ because the law does not apply to private property.

I don’t understand.  You seem to be contradicting yourself. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If the ’scaring the wildlife’ arugment were true then most of the official ‘wild & scenic’ rivers in this nation – which are heavily travelled by recreation paddlers – would be completely devoid of wildlife. The reverse is true – once the land is dedicated by recreational use ONLY – the wildlife return and thrive.. and with the exception of certain ’shy’ species become confortable with humans – especially if they are not shooting them. It’s not the presence of the human itself that disturbs most animals – it is WHAT the human is doing and animals *know* that there is risk is hanging around. This is simply not true.  No one said that the riparian zone would become ‘devoid’ of life, and while wildlife may become habituated to some degree, the stresses of human intrusion *remain* to negatively affect populations and vigor.   And that wildlife you may see, which may be habituated, ignores those "shy" species, which are in the majority, which may indeed leave the area altogether, or may simply begin a gradual decline. Our federal lands are managed for *multiple* use with the recognition that humans *will* have impacts, and those impacts are balanced against the benefits which accrue to the public.  Factually, from a political point of view, it would be highly desireable to simply forbid human access to *most* wilderness areas in order to preserve the habitat, but it’s politically impossible to do so, so we instead try to mitigate the impacts we do have.  That’s why permit systems are cropping up on more and more rivers.  The impacts of scale have become clear and limitations are required to preserve the resource. Indeed – with respect to ‘wilderness designation’, it’s not the paddlers or recreation folks or environmentalists that are fighting it.. it’s the folks that want to build roads and use motors. Impacts from recreation are easily mitigated.. you employ a permit system and if an area has eagle nests.. then you close it off entirely. The right fringe/landowner rights movement is trying to strike down all of these laws.. they want it all wide open … so that power boats, ski doos, etc can you AND the impacts ARE comparative. 100 canoes CAN and ARE compared to 100 ski-doos. One single four-wheel drive can severly damage a trail… and it has become recognized that hikers can do but it’ll take a 1000 of them… so you permit the use.. no 4-wheel and only 10 hikers per day.. etc etc

True, but largely irrelevant.  You do prove my point however that mitigating and preventing impacts is a legitimate method of preserving the resource. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The ‘difficulty’ is that if Colorado actually did what you suggest – that there would be a firestorm and the arugment would be over with very quickly. You would lose big time. Very significant tourism and the public’s perception of being ‘welcome’ are involved. No sane public official would even consider it.. that’ why they’re content to let it be the way it is. Public officials don’t make the decisions, wrong… if the public doesn’t like the court decision they’ll change the law. The ‘law’ is determined by the legislature which consists of publically-elected officials. the Courts do.   No amount of feverish desire in pursuit of the almighty dollar can prevent me, or someone else from filing a suit in court claiming an improper taking of private property for public use without just compensation. That’s the purpose of the Constitution, to prevent the tyranny of the majority and the infringements of the rights of the individual by the public. yep…but even the constition can be ammended if the people want it.

True, and when you succeed in repealing the Fifth Amendment, get back to me. While you are technically correct, you must recognize that private property ownership and the prohibitions against the government exproprating property without compensation are one of the core beliefs of our nation, and it’s simply not credible that the vast majority of the public, *who are property owners*, will tear up the Constitution simply to suit a *small number* of boating recreationists who aren’t satisfied with the public … read more »

Response:

 It’s all well and good to say that you, one individual boater, does no identifiable harm, but this ignores the impacts of scale, and when a hundred, or a thousand, or ten thousand boaters use the area, the cumulative impacts become significant.  Just look at the Grand Canyon.

yes – and that’s why most public lands that incur use impacts are placed in management plans. These plans seek to find the right balance – though I’ll admit it can be arbitrary – especially when it comes to mulltiple-use determinations. It’s a delicate balance of the two, but remember that preserving to pass stewardship on does *not* necessarily mean passing it to the public who want to use the land for recreation.

indeed. the ‘public’ is the government. All land public or private is regulation by Federal, State, and local laws that prevent land-owners from using their land when the impacts of such use affect the public. If you don’t believe this.. try something like a 1000 head feed-lot on your property… or placer mining… or eve condos… none of these will you do without a ‘permit’ and the government decides on behalf of the public if your proposal is ‘in the public interest’. Some folks of late consider these ‘takings’ but underlying ‘public interest’ concept is intact. But this is true ONLY IF the 100 cattle *do* damage the riverbank. Such impacts are not really comparative in nature.  Negative impacts cause by paddlers are not "better", or "less negative" impacts simply because they are caused by a paddler instead of a cow, they stand on their own, and when those impacts are unnecessary to begin with, they are that much more improper.

 hmmm.. they *are* comparative in terms of impacts… whether it is recreation, farming, mining.. all of these distill down to impacts that can be quantified in terms of water quality, habitat destruction, etc.   Cattle may cause negative impacts, which can be mitigated by proper management practices, but cattle are *necessary* impacts in most cases, because they are what pay the taxes and create the profits that are used to continue to preserve the area.   It’s all well and good to say "cattle-free in 2003" or whatever (though this mostly applies to federal lands) but the bills have to get paid somehow.     I suppose when paddlers fork over the thousands of dollars a year to pay the taxes and maintain the property, then I’ll consider allowing them to trespass.   Until then, their impacts, however slight, are *not necessary* to the preservation of the resource, and therefore they are justifiably banned.

"can be mitigated by proper management practices" leaves it up to the landowner whoever that happens to be at a given time. this does not work when money is involved. Many landowners justify the destruction of the land they own for ‘economic benefits’. You are not unilaterally entitled to un-regulated economic activity just because you own the land. Your activity has to be compatible with the ‘public interest’ as there is hardly anything (economic)  you can do on your property that won’t ultimately affect the public. There are thousands and thousands of local, state, federal laws that restrict you every which way from Sunday. You may consider recreation not necessary – the public may think otherwise – the same goes for what you think is ‘necessary’. If you public disagrees with you then you may be restricted. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  I’am also amused by the ’scaring the wildlife’ argument – somewhat because there may be a ‘hint’ of truth for some species but how many species in the last few decades have been not only ’scared’ but just plain wiped-out because the habitat they lived on was used by the landowner for ‘other purposes’? Again, you are comparing apples and oranges.  The fact that species and habitat may have been impacted by landowners is a broad generalization and an irrelevant comparison.   In my case this is not the case, as is true in many other places, and you cannot claim that your impacts are legitimate merely because other impacts occur. Your impacts stand alone, on their own merits, and you are not excused by the bad behavior of others.   Using your logic, you should be able to toss beer cans on the bank, leave rubbish around and cut down trees for firewood just because somebody else does so somewhere else. That’s fallacious logic at best.

I follow the consistency argument and agree but behavior is governed by law whether it occurs on private or public property – though different laws may apply depending on the behavior – for instance some usually can be arrested for ’speeding on your property’ because the law does not apply to private property. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If the ’scaring the wildlife’ arugment were true then most of the official ‘wild & scenic’ rivers in this nation – which are heavily travelled by recreation paddlers – would be completely devoid of wildlife. The reverse is true – once the land is dedicated by recreational use ONLY – the wildlife return and thrive.. and with the exception of certain ’shy’ species become confortable with humans – especially if they are not shooting them. It’s not the presence of the human itself that disturbs most animals – it is WHAT the human is doing and animals *know* that there is risk is hanging around. This is simply not true.  No one said that the riparian zone would become ‘devoid’ of life, and while wildlife may become habituated to some degree, the stresses of human intrusion *remain* to negatively affect populations and vigor.   And that wildlife you may see, which may be habituated, ignores those "shy" species, which are in the majority, which may indeed leave the area altogether, or may simply begin a gradual decline. Our federal lands are managed for *multiple* use with the recognition that humans *will* have impacts, and those impacts are balanced against the benefits which accrue to the public.  Factually, from a political point of view, it would be highly desireable to simply forbid human access to *most* wilderness areas in order to preserve the habitat, but it’s politically impossible to do so, so we instead try to mitigate the impacts we do have.  That’s why permit systems are cropping up on more and more rivers.  The impacts of scale have become clear and limitations are required to preserve the resource.

Indeed – with respect to ‘wilderness designation’, it’s not the paddlers or recreation folks or environmentalists that are fighting it.. it’s the folks that want to build roads and use motors. Impacts from recreation are easily mitigated.. you employ a permit system and if an area has eagle nests.. then you close it off entirely. The right fringe/landowner rights movement is trying to strike down all of these laws.. they want it all wide open … so that power boats, ski doos, etc can you AND the impacts ARE comparative. 100 canoes CAN and ARE compared to 100 ski-doos. One single four-wheel drive can severly damage a trail… and it has become recognized that hikers can do but it’ll take a 1000 of them… so you permit the use.. no 4-wheel and only 10 hikers per day.. etc etc The ‘difficulty’ is that if Colorado actually did what you suggest – that there would be a firestorm and the arugment would be over with very quickly. You would lose big time. Very significant tourism and the public’s perception of being ‘welcome’ are involved. No sane public official would even consider it.. that’ why they’re content to let it be the way it is. Public officials don’t make the decisions,

wrong… if the public doesn’t like the court decision they’ll change the law. The ‘law’ is determined by the legislature which consists of publically-elected officials. the Courts do.   No amount of feverish desire in pursuit of the almighty dollar can prevent me, or someone else from filing a suit in court claiming an improper taking of private property for public use without just compensation. That’s the purpose of the Constitution, to prevent the tyranny of the majority and the infringements of the rights of the individual by the public.

 yep…but even the constition can be ammended if the people want it. If I were to do as I suggest, *something* would happen, either the trespassers would be arrested, or *I* would be arrested for "illegally" preventing them from trespassing, or they would file a suit, or I would.  And as soon as the matter comes to court, the LAW rules, and I am quite confident in the strength of my legal case.

Like I said… if the law in Colorado was rigidly enforced along the lines that you suggest… and paddlers were kicked off of the major streams.. you could expect the law to change – regardless of how the courts feel. When you have a law like they have in Colorado and it’s not enforced.. there is a message in it. Federal Laws can force changes in Colorado law also – and do all the time. In the end… in a democracy… "rights" are decided by the people. You have no "right" to economic activity or even landowner rights if the public that votes disagrees with you. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Regards, Scott Weiser ****** "I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend upon my friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" ****** http://www.dimensional.com/~weiser/ Copyright 1998 by Scott Weiser Under the UCC, by the act of transmitting any commercial e-mail advertisment to this address, you are expressly contracting with me in my professional capacity for a consultation on the ad’s effectiveness and you expressly agree to pay to me the sum of $250.00 for each such consultation within 10 days of my report to the original sending address.  You further expressly agree that all actions for recovery of fees owed shall be subject solely to the laws of the State of Colorado, which shall have sole

… read more »

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Correct, and the point is that *somebody* just might own such places, and you could lose the access in a heartbeat due to the malefactions of one or two individual paddlers. yep – actually this is more common that most folks either know or will admit. In Virginia – The Cowpasture River ( not great whitewater but a really beautify mountain river) is essentially off-limits. Others include Back Creek and the Jackson. Had a little old lady point a long-barreled 45 at our group on the Bullpasture. She wanted us off of "her damned land" NOW! People have been arrested in the past and many others are "warned" by local landowners before they even put in. Interestingly, we *used* to be able to get permission from the landowner group for a number of years and then suddenly we were refused. Not because we had done anything wrong – we ALWAYS sought permission and ALWAYS were polite –  but because 1 landowner out of dozens didn’t want ANYBODY and didn’t care whether they were polite or respectful or anything else. End of story. All of years of carefully trying to not step on anyones toes went for naught. Um….I think this qualifies as a "broad generalization" of the type which Richard was objecting to when applied to paddlers, so I guess I have to object to it when applied to "landowners".   After all, my purpose is not to develop or destroy the resource, it’s to protect it from the damage caused by public use. yep, i erred in the generalization. there is a link however. I don’t buy your ‘protection’ argument. I’ve paddled hundreds of rivers in 30 years of boating and damage, if any, is miniscule compared to cattle, 4 wheelers, local trash dumps, roadside dumps, fishermen – believe it of not!, logging, farming, and industry.

This may be true elsewhere, but the fact that others may cause more damage does not reduce the impacts which boaters cause, and since whatever those impacts are are unnecessary, it’s perfectly proper to prevent them. Actually, of late, many rivers have been saved from damage by pointing out that they are used significantly for recreation. also interesting is that once a River becomes officially protected and becomes a destination for paddlers – the localities reap economic benefit AND the river then becomes essentially off-limits to single-minded proposals that *would* damage it.

If economic benefits were the only criteria perhaps this would be valid.   You do make a valid point that public awareness of the particular value of a particular river can be helpful in protecting the resource, but far too often the negative impacts of public access do more harm than good.   It’s all well and good to say that you, one individual boater, does no identifiable harm, but this ignores the impacts of scale, and when a hundred, or a thousand, or ten thousand boaters use the area, the cumulative impacts become significant.  Just look at the Grand Canyon. It’s a delicate balance of the two, but remember that preserving to pass stewardship on does *not* necessarily mean passing it to the public who want to use the land for recreation. I don’t think it is a ‘delicate balance’ at all. In most cases, it is fairly clear what the landowners intentions are.. you can see it in the way they take care of ( or not ) the land. Recreation does not harm the land on near the same scale as say cattle. A hundred cattle can totally ruin a river bank and turn a clean stream into a mess. A 100 paddlers – even if they all urinated in unison wouldn’t even come close.

But this is true ONLY IF the 100 cattle *do* damage the riverbank. Such impacts are not really comparative in nature.  Negative impacts cause by paddlers are not "better", or "less negative" impacts simply because they are caused by a paddler instead of a cow, they stand on their own, and when those impacts are unnecessary to begin with, they are that much more improper.   Cattle may cause negative impacts, which can be mitigated by proper management practices, but cattle are *necessary* impacts in most cases, because they are what pay the taxes and create the profits that are used to continue to preserve the area.   It’s all well and good to say "cattle-free in 2003" or whatever (though this mostly applies to federal lands) but the bills have to get paid somehow.     I suppose when paddlers fork over the thousands of dollars a year to pay the taxes and maintain the property, then I’ll consider allowing them to trespass.   Until then, their impacts, however slight, are *not necessary* to the preservation of the resource, and therefore they are justifiably banned.  I’am also amused by the ’scaring the wildlife’ argument – somewhat because there may be a ‘hint’ of truth for some species but how many species in the last few decades have been not only ’scared’ but just plain wiped-out because the habitat they lived on was used by the landowner for ‘other purposes’?

Again, you are comparing apples and oranges.  The fact that species and habitat may have been impacted by landowners is a broad generalization and an irrelevant comparison.   In my case this is not the case, as is true in many other places, and you cannot claim that your impacts are legitimate merely because other impacts occur. Your impacts stand alone, on their own merits, and you are not excused by the bad behavior of others.   Using your logic, you should be able to toss beer cans on the bank, leave rubbish around and cut down trees for firewood just because somebody else does so somewhere else. That’s fallacious logic at best. If the ’scaring the wildlife’ arugment were true then most of the official ‘wild & scenic’ rivers in this nation – which are heavily travelled by recreation paddlers – would be completely devoid of wildlife. The reverse is true – once the land is dedicated by recreational use ONLY – the wildlife return and thrive.. and with the exception of certain ’shy’ species become confortable with humans – especially if they are not shooting them. It’s not the presence of the human itself that disturbs most animals – it is WHAT the human is doing and animals *know* that there is risk is hanging around.

This is simply not true.  No one said that the riparian zone would become ‘devoid’ of life, and while wildlife may become habituated to some degree, the stresses of human intrusion *remain* to negatively affect populations and vigor.   And that wildlife you may see, which may be habituated, ignores those "shy" species, which are in the majority, which may indeed leave the area altogether, or may simply begin a gradual decline. Our federal lands are managed for *multiple* use with the recognition that humans *will* have impacts, and those impacts are balanced against the benefits which accrue to the public.  Factually, from a political point of view, it would be highly desireable to simply forbid human access to *most* wilderness areas in order to preserve the habitat, but it’s politically impossible to do so, so we instead try to mitigate the impacts we do have.  That’s why permit systems are cropping up on more and more rivers.  The impacts of scale have become clear and limitations are required to preserve the resource. Those impacts are just as present on Boulder Creek, though to a lesser degree.   The difficulty is that many jurisdictions are relying upon the  *** snip legal rambling **** Pity I don’t own such a parcel…..I could bring this thing to a head quite quickly…. The ‘difficulty’ is that if Colorado actually did what you suggest – that there would be a firestorm and the arugment would be over with very quickly. You would lose big time. Very significant tourism and the public’s perception of being ‘welcome’ are involved. No sane public official would even consider it.. that’ why they’re content to let it be the way it is.

Public officials don’t make the decisions, the Courts do.   No amount of feverish desire in pursuit of the almighty dollar can prevent me, or someone else from filing a suit in court claiming an improper taking of private property for public use without just compensation. That’s the purpose of the Constitution, to prevent the tyranny of the majority and the infringements of the rights of the individual by the public. If I were to do as I suggest, *something* would happen, either the trespassers would be arrested, or *I* would be arrested for "illegally" preventing them from trespassing, or they would file a suit, or I would.  And as soon as the matter comes to court, the LAW rules, and I am quite confident in the strength of my legal case. Regards, Scott Weiser ****** "I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend upon my friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" ****** http://www.dimensional.com/~weiser/ Copyright 1998 by Scott Weiser Under the UCC, by the act of transmitting any commercial e-mail advertisment to this address, you are expressly contracting with me in my professional capacity for a consultation on the ad’s effectiveness and you expressly agree to pay to me the sum of $250.00 for each such consultation within 10 days of my report to the original sending address.  You further expressly agree that all actions for recovery of fees owed shall be subject solely to the laws of the State of Colorado, which shall have sole jurisdiction.

Response:

Correct, and the point is that *somebody* just might own such places, and you could lose the access in a heartbeat due to the malefactions of one or two individual paddlers.

 yep – actually this is more common that most folks either know or will admit. In Virginia – The Cowpasture River ( not great whitewater but a really beautify mountain river) is essentially off-limits. Others include Back Creek and the Jackson. Had a little old lady point a long-barreled 45 at our group on the Bullpasture. She wanted us off of "her damned land" NOW!  People have been arrested in the past and many others are "warned" by local landowners before they even put in. Interestingly, we *used* to be able to get permission from the landowner group for a number of years and then suddenly we were refused. Not because we had done anything wrong – we ALWAYS sought permission and ALWAYS were polite –  but because 1 landowner out of dozens didn’t want ANYBODY and didn’t care whether they were polite or respectful or anything else. End of story. All of years of carefully trying to not step on anyones toes went for naught. Um….I think this qualifies as a "broad generalization" of the type which Richard was objecting to when applied to paddlers, so I guess I have to object to it when applied to "landowners".   After all, my purpose is not to develop or destroy the resource, it’s to protect it from the damage caused by public use.

 yep, i erred in the generalization. there is a link however. I don’t buy your ‘protection’ argument. I’ve paddled hundreds of rivers in 30 years of boating and damage, if any, is miniscule compared to cattle, 4 wheelers, local trash dumps, roadside dumps, fishermen – believe it of not!, logging, farming, and industry. Actually, of late, many rivers have been saved from damage by pointing out that they are used significantly for recreation. also interesting is that once a River becomes officially protected and becomes a destination for paddlers – the localities reap economic benefit AND the river then becomes essentially off-limits to single-minded proposals that *would* damage it. It’s a delicate balance of the two, but remember that preserving to pass stewardship on does *not* necessarily mean passing it to the public who want to use the land for recreation.

I don’t think it is a ‘delicate balance’ at all. In most cases, it is fairly clear what the landowners intentions are.. you can see it in the way they take care of ( or not ) the land. Recreation does not harm the land on near the same scale as say cattle. A hundred cattle can totally ruin a river bank and turn a clean stream into a mess. A 100 paddlers – even if they all urinated in unison wouldn’t even come close.  I’am also amused by the ’scaring the wildlife’ argument – somewhat because there may be a ‘hint’ of truth for some species but how many species in the last few decades have been not only ’scared’ but just plain wiped-out because the habitat they lived on was used by the landowner for ‘other purposes’? If the ’scaring the wildlife’ arugment were true then most of the official ‘wild & scenic’ rivers in this nation – which are heavily travelled by recreation paddlers – would be completely devoid of wildlife. The reverse is true – once the land is dedicated by recreational use ONLY – the wildlife return and thrive.. and with the exception of certain ’shy’ species become confortable with humans – especially if they are not shooting them. It’s not the presence of the human itself that disturbs most animals – it is WHAT the human is doing and animals *know* that there is risk is hanging around. The difficulty is that many jurisdictions are relying upon the

  *** snip legal rambling **** Pity I don’t own such a parcel…..I could bring this thing to a head quite quickly….

 The ‘difficulty’ is that if Colorado actually did what you suggest – that there would be a firestorm and the arugment would be over with very quickly. You would lose big time. Very significant tourism and the public’s perception of being ‘welcome’ are involved. No sane public official would even consider it.. that’ why they’re content to let it be the way it is. Absolutely correct, and only by dialog between landowners and river users can such conflicts be peacefully and properly resolved with benefit to everyone.

I actually agree with the basic premise that no one is guanranteed access to private land because they are engaging in what they perceive as a ‘noble’ activity. Usually, it’s scumballs who cloak themselves with the ‘noble activity’ and then abuse the landowner. We’ve seen it with hunting and to some extent with boating. I’ve always subscribed to the idea that if someone owns the land that *I* need to *ask permission* and if they refuse – they refuse. It is their right. It burns my butt when 99 paddlers are polite and ask permission and then Mr asshole waltz’s in and screws it up for everybody. Folks from the ‘big’ cities are often the worst offenders. For some odd reason, I’ve never been able to understand they think they are ‘entitled’ to treaspass once in the rural landscape. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Regards, Scott Weiser ****** "I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend upon my friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" ****** http://www.dimensional.com/~weiser/ Copyright 1998 by Scott Weiser Under the UCC, by the act of transmitting any commercial e-mail advertisment to this address, you are expressly contracting with me in my professional capacity for a consultation on the ad’s effectiveness and you expressly agree to pay to me the sum of $250.00 for each such consultation within 10 days of my report to the original sending address.  You further expressly agree that all actions for recovery of fees owed shall be subject solely to the laws of the State of Colorado, which shall have sole jurisdiction.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am willing to conceed to Scott that there is a valid interest in these dicussions on this newsgroup, but I do wish I could make the "NOT weiser" boolean search request work on my newsreader client.  The problem I have with these posts is that Scott seems to be preoccupied with preaching legal findings and citing past relevant rulings to paddlers that are responding back with statements like "If I can paddle it, the river is navigable!" and "Just try to stop me!".  Reading these threads is like sitting in a nicely furnished living room watching an acclaimed vet scold his dog by using the following phrase…"Sparky, the reason you should not urinate on the carpet is because the acidic nature of your fluid excrement has an adverse effect on both the optical appearance of this synthetic-based floor covering and also tends to react unpleasantly with the olfactory processes of myself and my house guests. Please, Sparky, give me a reason why I should not confine you to your pre-designated travel container."  Whereas, the more intelligent vet, the person that learns through careful observation would say "Bad Dog, go to your box.", realizing that dogs do not make for good argument.

ROTFLMAO.   What a hoot….I had not thought to compare kayakers to untrainable dogs.   I sort of thought by presenting the evidence in (hopefully) a manner which the average adult could understand, that people would discover the logic involved themselves and make good decisions based upon that knowledge.   I’ve had quite a bit of evidence that this is indeed the case. While you may tire of repetition (as I do), there is a constant stream of people who *don’t* understand and might like to who deserve to be informed of the controversy and the facts surrounding it so that they, too, can make informed decisions. My suggestion is that those who know the material and have made the decision, one way or the other, simply skip the threads altogether and allow those who *are* interested debate the matter with me in peace and quiet.   Unfortunately, those who have seen the material cannot seem to control themselves and insist on insulting me and interrupting valid and interesting conversations among others.  It’s a lot like a high-school student running into a class full of 8th graders and shouting "Hey, teach, shut the **ck up! I’ve heard all this before and you annoy me!" Why can’t those who don’t like the nature of the discussion simply switch off and go for a paddle and leave those who wish to discuss alone? I suspect it’s because such people are violently opposed to my particular argument and see it as dangerous, and decide to do whatever they can to disrupt the flow of information.  It’s a lame attempt at censorship, nothing more, and I’ll tell you here and now it won’t work. I guess what I am trying to say here is that the best communicators are the ones that can tailor a response, argumentative or otherwise, to the intended audience.  Make your point and make it clear.  There is nothing wrong with being a highly intelligent, well versed, individual, but make no mistake…a highly- intelligent, well-versed idiot is still an idiot. Finally, Scott, if you feel the need to reply to this posting, I will assume that you deem me a colleague worth engaging with in meaningful debate.      If your words truly express your feelings about me…

I think you have made a trenchant statement of fact, and I appreciate your candor.  I hope that my reply is likewise informative.  We agree more  than we disagree, but I have a policy about "Shut the **ck UP!" threads, which is that I reply to them with whatever degree of politeness is called for until those posting to the thread….shut the **ck up. Then I return to the adult debates about access issues and the law with those who wish to discuss the issue.  When nobody cares to discuss it anymore, then the thread dies and I retreat to my place under the bridge for a time, until some event stimulates me to begin again, for a new crop of paddlers who may be in need of enlightenment. (Your Previous Posting) <CLIP If you don’t like the course of the conversation, then toddle off and start one of your own instead of sniping at the adults who are having an interesting discussion.   You sound like a three-year-old who’s whining and throwing a temper tantrum because Mommy is ignoring you. <CLIP …then why do you bother post a reply, I personally do not waste my time reasoning with someone that sounded like a spoiled three-year-old.

It’s not for *their* benefit, it’s for the benefit of others, and for my own amusement. If you do repond and I do not, please do not feel bad.  Sometimes I go out and paddle instead of talking about it in this newsgroup.

Good plan. BTW- I apologize for the YELLING in my first post, it was uncalled for.

No problem, I’m a very forgiving kind of guy. Regards, Scott Weiser ****** "I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend upon my friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" ****** http://www.dimensional.com/~weiser/ Copyright 1998 by Scott Weiser Under the UCC, by the act of transmitting any commercial e-mail advertisment to this address, you are expressly contracting with me in my professional capacity for a consultation on the ad’s effectiveness and you expressly agree to pay to me the sum of $250.00 for each such consultation within 10 days of my report to the original sending address.  You further expressly agree that all actions for recovery of fees owed shall be subject solely to the laws of the State of Colorado, which shall have sole jurisdiction.

Response:

Hey, hey. We should be counting our blessings. Suppose Mr. Weiser owned the put-in to the Ocoee or Chatooga?  

Correct, and the point is that *somebody* just might own such places, and you could lose the access in a heartbeat due to the malefactions of one or two individual paddlers. Paddlers need to know about folks like him AND how he thinks. Mr. Weiser is representative of many ‘landowner rights’ advocates some of whom also belong to the ‘Wise Use’ groups. They usually not only want to keep paddlers off the rivers but they want to develop their land in any way they please even if it destroys natural resources.

Um….I think this qualifies as a "broad generalization" of the type which Richard was objecting to when applied to paddlers, so I guess I have to object to it when applied to "landowners".   After all, my purpose is not to develop or destroy the resource, it’s to protect it from the damage caused by public use. Some folks think if they own land that it ‘ALL MINE’ and I can do with it what I want while others see themselves as temporary stewards responsible for passing the land on to others to also will practice stewardship.

It’s a delicate balance of the two, but remember that preserving to pass stewardship on does *not* necessarily mean passing it to the public who want to use the land for recreation. It is a significant movement and unless paddlers and others become involved and pay attention – you’ll see more and more rivers placed off-limits. I’m amazed that if Colorado Law is what Mr. Weiser sez it is that ANY rivers out there can be accessed legally. Something doesn’t fit. I wonder how popular rivers fare on the access issue in that state.

The difficulty is that many jurisdictions are relying upon the Attorney General’s opinion of the effects of changing the definition of "premises", including the state Department of Natural Resources, which leads to inconsistent enforcement of the law and a misunderstanding of the law itself.   The issue is still unresolved because no case has been brought to overturn the AG’s opinion and confirm the Emmert Court’s decision.   I hope it won’t come to that, because such a ruling would *shut down* public recreational use of most of the important recreational waters of the state, including the Number section of the Arkansas, which, while most of it is on BLM or Forest Service land, is criss-crossed by private "inholdings", any one of which could choose at any time to prohibit trespass and thereby destroy the ability to complete the float at all, since there’s no way to egress at the closed properties. This is why I propose a system which allows the state to, in this example, *condemn* a recreational easement if necessary to assure continued access to the entire run.  But the essential part is that the state must *pay for* the access.   After all, commercial whitewater recreation on the Arkansas is a multi-million dollar industry, which makes that easement quite valuable. I’ve suggested before the possibility that a landowner who owns a strip of land under the river somewhere in the middle of the popular section could simply take photos of every commercial raft which passes by in a season, identify the outfitter, count the number of heads and send them a bill at, say, $5.00 a head for a "trespass fee."    I imagine this would get the attention of the recreational community rather quickly. Pity I don’t own such a parcel…..I could bring this thing to a head quite quickly…. The thread has been excellent raising awareness  and I’ll bet more than a few now realize how important it is to contribute/join the AWA who works on behalf paddlers on access issues.

Absolutely correct, and only by dialog between landowners and river users can such conflicts be peacefully and properly resolved with benefit to everyone. Regards, Scott Weiser ****** "I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend upon my friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" ****** http://www.dimensional.com/~weiser/ Copyright 1998 by Scott Weiser Under the UCC, by the act of transmitting any commercial e-mail advertisment to this address, you are expressly contracting with me in my professional capacity for a consultation on the ad’s effectiveness and you expressly agree to pay to me the sum of $250.00 for each such consultation within 10 days of my report to the original sending address.  You further expressly agree that all actions for recovery of fees owed shall be subject solely to the laws of the State of Colorado, which shall have sole jurisdiction.

Response:

Shut Up, Shut up, Shut Up!!! For the love of God people please stop this nonesense. Like everyone else I give a damn but I’m F%#$ing tired of seeing all these lame Wesier posts. Dear lord have mercy on our souls!! T.J.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey, hey. We should be counting our blessings. Suppose Mr. Weiser owned the put-in to the Ocoee or Chatooga? Paddlers need to know about folks like him AND how he thinks. Mr. Weiser is representative of many ‘landowner rights’ advocates some of whom also belong to the ‘Wise Use’ groups. They usually not only want to keep paddlers off the rivers but they want to develop their land in any way they please even if it destroys natural resources. Some folks think if they own land that it ‘ALL MINE’ and I can do with it what I want while others see themselves as temporary stewards responsible for passing the land on to others to also will practice stewardship. It is a significant movement and unless paddlers and others become involved and pay attention – you’ll see more and more rivers placed off-limits. I’m amazed that if Colorado Law is what Mr. Weiser sez it is that ANY rivers out there can be accessed legally. Something doesn’t fit. I wonder how popular rivers fare on the access issue in that state. The thread has been excellent raising awareness  and I’ll bet more than a few now realize how important it is to contribute/join the AWA who works on behalf paddlers on access issues.

I will go against the spirit of my original post and add a few more coals to the fire. Larry, you make a good point here.  It is important that people reading this newsgroup realize the opinions of Scott and landowners like him.  I do admit that I skimmed over the legal content of your posting pretty lightly, because I myself (speaking only for myself) do not give much consideration to written law while paddling.  Not to say that I am a scofflaw, I just rely on simple common sense and judgement when leaving the city for a relaxing paddling trip.  In my opinion, many access laws are on the books for liability reasons.  There is a certain river here in the Southeast, that is officially banned from access.  I have been told by local law enforcement officials that they do not particularly mind paddlers on the river, nor do they bother them if the right attitude is excercised by the group.  The law was enacted to protect the state in the event of an unforseen accident.  When I paddle, I paddle until told not to.  If a local landowner expresses their concern in my paddling, I respect their wishes.  If I should get arrested and am legally "in the wrong", I pay my fine and do not visit that particular area again. This approach has not failed me yet. Mutual respect goes quite a long way here in the Southeast.  Maybe things are different in Colorado, I really do not know.  I am not saying we should feel that we have the right to paddle anywhere.  I am simply saying that 9 times out of ten, if you are not making a problem for anyone, people usually do not make problems for you.  If Mr. Weiser’s family property on Boulder Creek contains a fence to control livestock, and by Colorado law they have a right to maintain that fence, then I would say paddling that section does impose a problem on someone, so it shold be avoided.  It is quite possible that if there was no need for the fence, the Weisers may not care if their property is paddled across, who knows, it does not really matter.  If I am paddling down a "legal" creek and a trout fisherman has inadvertantly snagged his line across the river,  I wait, or help, or get out and walk around.  I do not care who is or is not supposed to be there. (enough rambling, I will try to make my point here.) I am willing to conceed to Scott that there is a valid interest in these dicussions on this newsgroup, but I do wish I could make the "NOT weiser" boolean search request work on my newsreader client.  The problem I have with these posts is that Scott seems to be preoccupied with preaching legal findings and citing past relevant rulings to paddlers that are responding back with statements like "If I can paddle it, the river is navigable!" and "Just try to stop me!".  Reading these threads is like sitting in a nicely furnished living room watching an acclaimed vet scold his dog by using the following phrase…"Sparky, the reason you should not urinate on the carpet is because the acidic nature of your fluid excrement has an adverse effect on both the optical appearance of this synthetic-based floor covering and also tends to react unpleasantly with the olfactory processes of myself and my house guests. Please, Sparky, give me a reason why I should not confine you to your pre-designated travel container."  Whereas, the more intelligent vet, the person that learns through careful observation would say "Bad Dog, go to your box.", realizing that dogs do not make for good argument. I guess what I am trying to say here is that the best communicators are the ones that can tailor a response, argumentative or otherwise, to the intended audience.  Make your point and make it clear.  There is nothing wrong with being a highly intelligent, well versed, individual, but make no mistake…a highly- intelligent, well-versed idiot is still an idiot. Finally, Scott, if you feel the need to reply to this posting, I will assume that you deem me a colleague worth engaging with in meaningful debate.  If your words truly express your feelings about me… (Your Previous Posting) <CLIP If you don’t like the course of the conversation, then toddle off and start one of your own instead of sniping at the adults who are having an interesting discussion.   You sound like a three-year-old who’s whining and throwing a temper tantrum because Mommy is ignoring you.

<CLIP …then why do you bother post a reply, I personally do not waste my time reasoning with someone that sounded like a spoiled three-year-old. If you do repond and I do not, please do not feel bad.  Sometimes I go out and paddle instead of talking about it in this newsgroup. BTW- I apologize for the YELLING in my first post, it was uncalled for. SYOTR (well maybe 99.9% of you) -Craig

Response:

From, Mick "Better to be paddlin’ hard than hardly paddlin’ "

Response:

I think it’s kind of funny. Near the beginning of the great return of Weiser, everyone was more or less agreeing with him. Now he’s isolated himself against the NG again by posting more to this newsgroup on a few days than I have since I’ve started looking at it.

Of course, the slingers of insults who *start* the threads have *nothing* to do with it…..not… If only the "vocal minority" were able to leave well enough alone, then perhaps these pyrotechnic offshoots wouldn’t happen, but of course, unable to audit their conduct, they just *have* to get a dig in there.   Well, poke me and I poke right back.  You want it to stop, you stop it. Regards, Scott Weiser ****** "I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend upon my friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" ****** http://www.dimensional.com/~weiser/ Copyright 1998 by Scott Weiser Under the UCC, by the act of transmitting any commercial e-mail advertisment to this address, you are expressly contracting with me in my professional capacity for a consultation on the ad’s effectiveness and you expressly agree to pay to me the sum of $250.00 for each such consultation within 10 days of my report to the original sending address.  You further expressly agree that all actions for recovery of fees owed shall be subject solely to the laws of the State of Colorado, which shall have sole jurisdiction.

Response:

Hey, hey. We should be counting our blessings. Suppose Mr. Weiser owned the put-in to the Ocoee or Chatooga?   Paddlers need to know about folks like him AND how he thinks. Mr. Weiser is representative of many ‘landowner rights’ advocates some of whom also belong to the ‘Wise Use’ groups. They usually not only want to keep paddlers off the rivers but they want to develop their land in any way they please even if it destroys natural resources. Some folks think if they own land that it ‘ALL MINE’ and I can do with it what I want while others see themselves as temporary stewards responsible for passing the land on to others to also will practice stewardship. It is a significant movement and unless paddlers and others become involved and pay attention – you’ll see more and more rivers placed off-limits. I’m amazed that if Colorado Law is what Mr. Weiser sez it is that ANY rivers out there can be accessed legally. Something doesn’t fit. I wonder how popular rivers fare on the access issue in that state. The thread has been excellent raising awareness  and I’ll bet more than a few now realize how important it is to contribute/join the AWA who works on behalf paddlers on access issues.

Response:

I apologize in advance, but there really is no diplomatic way to state this… ENOUGH WITH THE DAMN ACCESS DEBATE THREADS!

Thank you for that trenchant commentary. I am a kayaker.  I view and post to this newsgroup in order to keep abreast of new happenings in the sport I love.

And access debates have nothing to do with your sport?   Boy, are you deluded. And just what makes you think that anyone else is obliged to give a rodent’s fundamental orifice about why YOU choose to participate here or what YOU like or want? When I see three postings (or threads) involving a river access issue, I think "Good debate, there have been some valid issues presented here".  When I see thirty posts, mostly by one individual, I think "These (expletive’in) people have nothing better to do with their time."

Well, I do rather enjoy jousting with the fine folks here…and the Netwits too.  It’s my time to waste though, so what’s your beef? Remember, I only post in reply to a query or discussion from someone else who, axiomatically, *is* interested in the subject. Please, If you are absolutely hot-and-bothered to the point that you are treating this news group like your own personal chat-room, I understand…But keep it private, e-mail is really an ideal medium for this type of thing. Don’t clog this otherwise interesting group with twenty different post that are essentially the same in content.

Clog the group?   Have you ever heard of a concept called the "delete" key?  How about the "down arrow" key?  Both of them will allow you to completely bypass any discussion which might cause consternation and confusion in your tiny mind. There’s and even better one….it’s called the "OFF" switch.  Use it in good health, but USE it. If the posts are the same in content, it’s because others keep asking the same questions, and as long as they do, I’ll keep responding to them because it’s the polite thing to do. For the record, Yes, I do now know that Scott Weiser(sp?) is very familiar with private domain laws in Colorado and he would prefer that kayakers show a little more respect towards his family’s legal wishes.  I also know that there are a lot of disrespectful boaters out there that believe once the water droplet leaves the cloud, it is there God-given right to use it at their convenience.  Well folks, these are things I learned in the first few posts. I can see both sides of the argument, but really do not give a flying (expletive)!

And so you would impose your will on everyone else, some of whom might be interested, simply because you don’t have the wit to skip a thread. How very altruistic of you.  If you have any other opinions that you think I am interested in past that point, know that I am not.  If any of you involved in this thread think of any other gems that need to be discussed pertaining to this topic. Please, WRITE YOUR (EXPLETIVE’IN) CONGRESSMAN OR SHUT THE (EXPLETIVE) UP!

Let me see if I can put this delicately……No. If you don’t like the course of the conversation, then toddle off and start one of your own instead of sniping at the adults who are having an interesting discussion.   You sound like a three-year-old who’s whining and throwing a temper tantrum because Mommy is ignoring you. Grow up and act like an adult. Regards, Scott Weiser ****** "I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend upon my friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" ****** http://www.dimensional.com/~weiser/ Copyright 1998 by Scott Weiser Under the UCC, by the act of transmitting any commercial e-mail advertisment to this address, you are expressly contracting with me in my professional capacity for a consultation on the ad’s effectiveness and you expressly agree to pay to me the sum of $250.00 for each such consultation within 10 days of my report to the original sending address.  You further expressly agree that all actions for recovery of fees owed shall be subject solely to the laws of the State of Colorado, which shall have sole jurisdiction.

Response:

I think it’s kind of funny. Near the beginning of the great return of Weiser, everyone was more or less agreeing with him. Now he’s isolated himself against the NG again by posting more to this newsgroup on a few days than I have since I’ve started looking at it. "Regards," Sam Glover

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You know, I agree with just about everything Scott said in this post. Nobody forces you to read every article on the newsgroup.  Just skip over the threads you don’t like.  I know we’ve gone over this subject a zillion times, but apparently we keep getting new people in the group who are not aware of the differences in access laws from place to place.  Some of these people want argue with Scott, but it really won’t do them any good–they can’t change the laws of the state of Colorado. They do, however, learn from the exchanges.  And for every person who posts in the thread, there are at least ten who are reading it and learning from it.  If paddlers improve their behaviour wrt access, then maybe some irate landowners who have the power to block access to put-ins or even to the entire river may decide that paddlers aren’t so bad.  If these threads improve our collective behaviour enough that the closure of just one river is avoided, then it will be worthwhile.

Well said. I do take issue with one of Scott’s statements, though. Remember, I only post in reply to a query or discussion from someone else who, axiomatically, *is* interested in the subject. Scott, you were the first poster on this subject.  So one out of the dozens of your posts was NOT a repy.  (OK, I may be picking at straws there, but read on.)  Also, just the other day, you replied to a post that was completely unrelated (i.e. had nothing to do with access), and did so in a manner that seemed (to me) aimed at starting another big thread.  Hence, you do not ONLY post to reply to questions about access, although I would agree that the vast majority of your posts are valid replies.  If you had said that you "usually" or "generally only reply… then I would have no argument with your statement.

Well, you’ve got me there.  I admit to priming the pan from time to time, but you can hardly blame me when the flash occurs.   It’s possible for everyone to simply ignore my flashy lures, but it’s also highly unlikely, as I have discovered, and so I take advantage of that phenomenon to stimulate debate, and this has been another interesting and lively debate, and, as you so succintly said, some people learned something new.  Whether they like what they learned, or agree with it is unimportant, what’s important is that they have had their horizons expanded, which is *always* a good thing. Regards, Scott Weiser ****** "I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend upon my friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" ****** http://www.dimensional.com/~weiser/ Copyright 1998 by Scott Weiser Under the UCC, by the act of transmitting any commercial e-mail advertisment to this address, you are expressly contracting with me in my professional capacity for a consultation on the ad’s effectiveness and you expressly agree to pay to me the sum of $250.00 for each such consultation within 10 days of my report to the original sending address.  You further expressly agree that all actions for recovery of fees owed shall be subject solely to the laws of the State of Colorado, which shall have sole jurisdiction.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I apologize in advance, but there really is no diplomatic way to state this… ENOUGH WITH THE DAMN ACCESS DEBATE THREADS! I am a kayaker.  I view and post to this newsgroup in order to keep abreast of new happenings in the sport I love. When I see three postings (or threads) involving a river access issue, I think "Good debate, there have been some valid issues presented here".  When I see thirty posts, mostly by one individual, I think "These (expletive’in) people have nothing better to do with their time." Please, If you are absolutely hot-and-bothered to the point that you are treating this news group like your own personal chat-room, I understand…But keep it private, e-mail is really an ideal medium for this type of thing. Don’t clog this otherwise interesting group with twenty different post that are essentially the same in content. For the record, Yes, I do now know that Scott Weiser(sp?) is very familiar with private domain laws in Colorado and he would prefer that kayakers show a little more respect towards his family’s legal wishes.  I also know that there are a lot of disrespectful boaters out there that believe once the water droplet leaves the cloud, it is there God-given right to use it at their convenience.  Well folks, these are things I learned in the first few posts. I can see both sides of the argument, but really do not give a flying (expletive)!  If you have any other opinions that you think I am interested in past that point, know that I am not.  If any of you involved in this thread think of any other gems that need to be discussed pertaining to this topic. Please, WRITE YOUR (EXPLETIVE’IN) CONGRESSMAN OR SHUT THE (EXPLETIVE) UP! By the way, if any of you would like to paddle this weekend, let me know Let me out of this concrete jungle, -Craig "no playboat yet" Geist

You better watch out buddy … you started a new possible deadly feud here … you better know that Mr. Weiser is a very fast typist, commands the English language like no other, is an expert of all laws of the king’s land, he is a sharp shooter (he is also a gunsmithlike expert) and a land "king size" owner. You are doomed my friend! Scotty will beam your tired sorry paddling ass up! PS: I really felt sorry for the incident and for the two idiots that went after Mr. Weiser’s mother but this is to much! Fred Fred Mechini Visit my homepage  http://pluto.njcc.com/~fmec/Welcome.html A WEB PAGE DEDICATED TO OLYMPIC SPRINT KAYAK

Response:

You know, I agree with just about everything Scott said in this post. Nobody forces you to read every article on the newsgroup.  Just skip over the threads you don’t like.  I know we’ve gone over this subject a zillion times, but apparently we keep getting new people in the group who are not aware of the differences in access laws from place to place.  Some of these people want argue with Scott, but it really won’t do them any good–they can’t change the laws of the state of Colorado. They do, however, learn from the exchanges.  And for every person who posts in the thread, there are at least ten who are reading it and learning from it.  If paddlers improve their behaviour wrt access, then maybe some irate landowners who have the power to block access to put-ins or even to the entire river may decide that paddlers aren’t so bad.  If these threads improve our collective behaviour enough that the closure of just one river is avoided, then it will be worthwhile. I do take issue with one of Scott’s statements, though. Remember, I only post in reply to a query or discussion from someone else who, axiomatically, *is* interested in the subject.

Scott, you were the first poster on this subject.  So one out of the dozens of your posts was NOT a repy.  (OK, I may be picking at straws there, but read on.)  Also, just the other day, you replied to a post that was completely unrelated (i.e. had nothing to do with access), and did so in a manner that seemed (to me) aimed at starting another big thread.  Hence, you do not ONLY post to reply to questions about access, although I would agree that the vast majority of your posts are valid replies.  If you had said that you "usually" or "generally only reply… then I would have no argument with your statement. -Paul

Response:

I apologize in advance, but there really is no diplomatic way to state this… ENOUGH WITH THE DAMN ACCESS DEBATE THREADS! I am a kayaker.  I view and post to this newsgroup in order to keep abreast of new happenings in the sport I love. When I see three postings (or threads) involving a river access issue, I think "Good debate, there have been some valid issues presented here".  When I see thirty posts, mostly by one individual, I think "These (expletive’in) people have nothing better to do with their time." Please, If you are absolutely hot-and-bothered to the point that you are treating this news group like your own personal chat-room, I understand…But keep it private, e-mail is really an ideal medium for this type of thing. Don’t clog this otherwise interesting group with twenty different post that are essentially the same in content. For the record, Yes, I do now know that Scott Weiser(sp?) is very familiar with private domain laws in Colorado and he would prefer that kayakers show a little more respect towards his family’s legal wishes.  I also know that there are a lot of disrespectful boaters out there that believe once the water droplet leaves the cloud, it is there God-given right to use it at their convenience.  Well folks, these are things I learned in the first few posts. I can see both sides of the argument, but really do not give a flying (expletive)!  If you have any other opinions that you think I am interested in past that point, know that I am not.  If any of you involved in this thread think of any other gems that need to be discussed pertaining to this topic. Please, WRITE YOUR (EXPLETIVE’IN) CONGRESSMAN OR SHUT THE (EXPLETIVE) UP! By the way, if any of you would like to paddle this weekend, let me know Let me out of this concrete jungle, -Craig "no playboat yet" Geist

Response:

Question:

Ann, Just wanted to compliment you on your great response to the man asking about the side effects of SJW.  Great job! Ginny

Response:

Just wanted to compliment you on your great response to the man asking about the side effects of SJW.  Great job! Ginny

     Why, thank you SO much, Ginny — you really made my evening!!  :-) Anne  ^  ^  {__} The only problem with finally making it to the top of the mountain is that the only way to go from there is DOWN.

Response:

ORIGINAL MESSAGE BELOW YOu mentioned that you are not interested in the Prozac "nation" type of drugs.  Please don’t forget that St. John’s Wort, even though it’s an herb is still a chemical.  In particular, it is a MAO (Monoamine Oxidase Inhibitor).  There are many prescription drugs that are chemically related. All MAO inhibitor drugs have problems with interactions with OTC medications as well as many foods that contain high amounts of Tyrosine (i.e., aged meats and cheeses).  If your depression is severe enough, I wouln’t discount the effectiveness of certain prescription drugs.  Prozac got a bad rap because of its misuse by doctors that wanted to prescribe for things such as weight loss, etc.  Only a trained Psychiatrist would know when to prescribe because Prozac can bring on manic episodes if the person is predisposed to bi-polar depression. Many people think (the uninformed ones) that herbs are completely safe because they are natural.  They are still powerful chemicals and you have to be completely informed about their appropriate use.  Personally, I have tried St. John’s Wort with no effect.  I am currently on Effexor and have seen dramatic improvement in the span of only 2 weeks. Hope this information helps.  Please be aware, that the above dialogue is my opinion. Jeff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I have a question regarding possible side-effects from St John’s Wort and have not been able to find an answer anywhere else. I’ve looked in over a dozen book that mention SJW/Hypercium and checked with two pharmacists, yet found no mention or possible explanation for my situation. Having wrestled with depression for some time (the diagnosis from a Doc was Dystimia), it was suggested by a friend who suffers from bouts of depression, and-off the record-by a psychiatrist, that I try SJW and see if it helped. The initial results were *very* promising: I felt balanced, energized and normal for the first time in I don’t know how long. Aside from some slight indigestion and grumbling bowels (which were not a problem when I took the SJW with a good breakfast), there were no immediate difficulties. However, about one month into taking SJW I began to have trouble sitting for long periods due to what felt like swollen testicles. They became very sensitive and I began to experience that most unpleasant of male maladies-cracking one’s nuts-on a daily basis. At first I thought I had another hernia (having had one 10 years ago), for the pressure and irritation on and around my lower abdomen was similar. Still, the pressure was different enough-and had started after I started taking SJW-that I suspected otherwise. Perhaps there was an unfortunate interaction between the SJW and some of the other medications I have to take (in this case, for allergies and for psoriasis). I stopped taking everything, and within 10 days the pressure on my testicles was gone. I’d like to start taking the SJW again, but want first to see if there is any knowledge or documentaion of side effects of this nature. The manufacturer’s blanket warning on the SJW bottle (more of a "cover your ass" for the parent company than a conveyor of information) mentions that one should consider avoiding the product if you’ve had prostrate enlargement in the past-yet I have found no where any mention of either prostrate enlargement or testicular swelling as a side-effect of hypercium. One book on herbal medicines did mention that while taking SJW one should abstain from coffee, tea, alcohol ("Great!…now what am I going to drink?!?) and a huge list of foods…but gave no explanation as to why someone should alter their diet such. It’s very important to me to clear up this question (hence my willingness to let it "all hang out" for the on-line world to see), for the positive effects of St Joh’s were extremely helpful in getting my life back on track. (And for the record, while I ‘ve been prescribed  Prozac, I am in no way interested in joining the ProzacNation and dealing with my situation chemically. This is an absolute last-resort measure.) Thanks to anyone who has an answer to this, J.P.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a question regarding possible side-effects from St John’s Wort and have not been able to find an answer anywhere else. I’ve looked in over a dozen book that mention SJW/Hypercium and checked with two pharmacists, yet found no mention or possible explanation for my situation. Having wrestled with depression for some time (the diagnosis from a Doc was Dystimia), it was suggested by a friend who suffers from bouts of depression, and-off the record-by a psychiatrist, that I try SJW and see if it helped. The initial results were *very* promising: I felt balanced, energized and normal for the first time in I don’t know how long. Aside from some slight indigestion and grumbling bowels (which were not a problem when I took the SJW with a good breakfast), there were no immediate difficulties. However, about one month into taking SJW I began to have trouble sitting for long periods due to what felt like swollen testicles. They became very sensitive and I began to experience that most unpleasant of male maladies-cracking one’s nuts-on a daily basis. At first I thought I had another hernia (having had one 10 years ago), for the pressure and irritation on and around my lower abdomen was similar. Still, the pressure was different enough-and had started after I started taking SJW-that I suspected otherwise. Perhaps there was an unfortunate interaction between the SJW and some of the other medications I have to take (in this case, for allergies and for psoriasis).

Testicular swelling is a known possible side-effect of some of the tricyclic antidepressant drugs such as imipramine.  I suspect that St. John’s Wort’s mode of action is similar to the tricyclic class of antidepressants and shares this possible side-effect with them. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I stopped taking everything, and within 10 days the pressure on my testicles was gone. I’d like to start taking the SJW again, but want first to see if there is any knowledge or documentaion of side effects of this nature. The manufacturer’s blanket warning on the SJW bottle (more of a "cover your ass" for the parent company than a conveyor of information) mentions that one should consider avoiding the product if you’ve had prostrate enlargement in the past-yet I have found no where any mention of either prostrate enlargement or testicular swelling as a side-effect of hypercium. One book on herbal medicines did mention that while taking SJW one should abstain from coffee, tea, alcohol ("Great!…now what am I going to drink?!?) and a huge list of foods…but gave no explanation as to why someone should alter their diet such. It’s very important to me to clear up this question (hence my willingness to let it "all hang out" for the on-line world to see), for the positive effects of St Joh’s were extremely helpful in getting my life back on track. (And for the record, while I ‘ve been prescribed  Prozac, I am in no way interested in joining the ProzacNation and dealing with my situation chemically. This is an absolute last-resort measure.)

I don’t understand your reluctance to try Prozac since St. John’s Wort is also a chemical treatment of depression. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Thanks to anyone who has an answer to this, J.P.

Response:

However, about one month into taking SJW I began to have trouble sitting for long periods due to what felt like swollen testicles. They became very sensitive and I began to experience that most unpleasant of male maladies-cracking one’s nuts-on a daily basis. At first I thought I had another hernia (having had one 10 years ago), for the pressure and irritation on and around my lower abdomen was similar. Still, the pressure was different enough-and had started after I started taking SJW-that I suspected otherwise.

     J.P.  – I’m so glad to hear that you have had such good results overall with St. John’s Wort.  Most of what has been said about your problem in this thread so far has been fairly good advice (particularly that concerning the need for being careful of the MAOI-like effects of SJW, and possible VERY adverse food/drug interactions because of that).      I haven’t heard of the discomfort that you are describing PRECISELY, but I have heard of something a little bit similar.  A patient contacted me to ask about a rather strange sort of experience that he was having, wherein he would develop considerable abdominal distention and discomfort, while finding himself to also be developing a spontaneous penile erection at the same time.      After extensive questioning, it was finally determined that this person would develop these strange, distressing symptoms after ingesting an assortment of herbs that he was taking in order to "enhance" his immune system.  As you will see from other posts on this board, just because a preparation is sold as an "herbal" preparation over the counter, without a prescription; that in NO WAY means that it is entirely innocuous!!      In this other person’s case, I finally figured out that what he was having was an odd sort of allergic reaction to the herbs that he was taking, and this was how it was manifesting for him.  When I pointed this out to him, he then related to me an experience that he had had of taking a preparation containing the herb yohimbine; and then having this strange type of side effect SO severely that he (in his own words) nearly passed out and ejaculated at the same time while riding on the subway.      It sounds to me, J.P., as if what you are describing is some sort of mild allergice reaction to the SJW.  One VERY common response to an allergic reaction to something is to retain fluid.  My guess would be that you might very well just be experiencing/noticing the fluid retention of an allergic reaction to the SJW primarily in the scrotal and testicular area.      Part of the biochemical reaction of an allergic reaction is for the body to release excess amounts of a body chemical known as "histamine".  One of the effects of histamine is to mediate sexual response.  In the case of this other individual, he was experiencing that effect somewhat in the extreme.        Perhaps you are experiencing a combination of that, along with some fluid retention — and the resultant effect is the sensations that you have described.  Does what you experience resemble that old male malady commonly referred to colloquially as "blue balls"?  If so, then I would say that what you are experiencing IS indeed an excess histamine response.      If that is the case, you could try an over-the-counter antihistamine (such as ChlorTrimeton or Benadryl) to see if that might help to relieve this problem.  You might also try adding something such as Zantac (which is a partial histamine H-2 blocker), too.        Unfortunately, I don’t know if the addition of something such as these histamine blockers will negate the beneficial effects of the SJW.  Probably the only way to tell is to just simply give it a try.  (They shouldn’t interact adversely with the SJW — I can’t tell you about the other medications that you may be taking, though.)      Although this probably isn’t of any concern to you at this time of year, one other not-insignificant side effect of SJW is photosensitivity.  What this means is that you need to be VERY careful of exposure to ultra-violet light. If you get too much while taking the SJW, you could very easily develop a very bad sunburn and/or bad rash.      Just for the record, to correct a few other minor things that have been said in this thread — it is TYRAMINE in various foods that is of concern when taking an MAOI — not tyrosine.  (Tyrosine is the precursor to tyramine, which then breaks down to norepinephrine in the body.  Not all tyrosine breaks down to tyramine, though; and not all foods high in tyramine are also high in tyrosine.)        MAOI drugs can interact adversely with foods that are high in tyramine (as well as with numerous other medications), and cause a VERY serious — possibly even fatal — hypertensive crisis, J.P.  That is the reason why that book advised against the ingestion of certain foods and beverages when taking SJW.      Also, you probably were told that you suffer from "dysthymia" — not "distimia".  And don’t be TOO quick to knock Prozac — it has saved many people’s lives, and greatly improved many other people’s lives.  No — it’s not a miracle nor a panacea — but nor is it the much-maligned boogey-man that it’s been made out to be, either.  Much like many things in this world, it is an inanimate object — and is what we make of it — good OR bad.      Anyway, I hope that this might be of some help to you.  Good luck! Anne  ^  ^  {__} Have you ever felt as if you’ve finally seen the light at the end of the tunnel — only to discover that it’s really a locomotive aimed straight at you?

Response:

You mentioned the use of Prozac as a way to treat depression, and the "Prozac nation."   I am in no way interested in joining the ProzacNation and dealing with my situation chemically. During my course of treatment for depression I was prescribed several medications, including Prozac, Effexor, Zoloft, and Imiprimine.  Imiprimine was one that I did not tolerate well.  My Psych. then prescribed Zoloft, To which I eventually developed a tolerance; then Effexor, same problem; then Prozac, which I took for a little over 2yrs.  I am now taking SJW to help combat some situational "blues" and a mild case of Seasonal Affected Disorder (Wintertime Blues). During this time I am ACTIVELY PARTICIPATING IN PSYCHOTHERAPY.   My piont is that no one can Heal depression with just chemicals.  If you don’t deal with the life situations that are exacerbating your depression, you may end up taking chemicals for the rest of your life. I am aware that there are some people out there who are diagnosed with depression as a chemical imbalance.  This may ne so, but far more use chemicals to keep from dealing with the shit floating around in their head.  In these situations the meds are just a cop-out. If you are interested in more about SJW try reading: THE NATURAL PROZAC PROGRAM by Johnathan Zeus M.D. For more info on depressioI recommend tracking down a copy of HEALING DEPRESSION, but I don’t have the author’s name handy. I’ll get off ny soapbox now. Rowan Rowan "To Do Is To Be." -Plato "To Be Is To Do." -Socrates "Do Be Do Be Do" -Sinatra

Response:

YOu mentioned that you are not interested in the Prozac "nation" type of drugs.  Please don’t forget that St. John’s Wort, even though it’s an herb is still a chemical.  In particular, it is a MAO (Monoamine Oxidase Inhibitor).  There are many prescription drugs that are chemically related. All MAO inhibitor drugs have problems with interactions with OTC medications as well as many foods that contain high amounts of Tyrosine (i.e., aged meats and cheeses).  If your depression is severe enough, I wouln’t discount the effectiveness of certain prescription drugs.  Prozac got a bad rap because of its misuse by doctors that wanted to prescribe for things such as weight loss, etc.  Only a trained Psychiatrist would know when to prescribe because Prozac can bring on manic episodes if the person is predisposed to bi-polar depression.

I’ve never heard of the prostate warning either (see original message below), but SJW’s mild MAOI property together with the allergy meds (if they contain ephedrine or pseudoephedrine [other no-no's?]) could theoretically cause some overactivation of the sympathetic nervous system (mostly high blood pressure), but again, I’ve never heard of testicle problems being part of the syndrome (I have heard of one man who experienced some kind of partial paralysis or loss of sensation in his penis on SJW).  You (J. P.) might want to ask your pharmacist if a MAOI _drug_ together with any of the meds you’re taking could cause your symptoms.  Regardless of the answer, if you’d like to stick with the SJW, a trial of it sans any meds that are contraindicated for people using MAOIs (your pharmacist, the web, or the library can give you the details) would be an option.   If you could let us/me know how it works out (I write about health — including SJW — professionally), I would appreciate it. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Many people think (the uninformed ones) that herbs are completely safe because they are natural.  They are still powerful chemicals and you have to be completely informed about their appropriate use.  Personally, I have tried St. John’s Wort with no effect.  I am currently on Effexor and have seen dramatic improvement in the span of only 2 weeks. Hope this information helps.  Please be aware, that the above dialogue is my opinion. Jeff I have a question regarding possible side-effects from St John’s Wort and have not been able to find an answer anywhere else. I’ve looked in over a dozen book that mention SJW/Hypercium and checked with two pharmacists, yet found no mention or possible explanation for my situation. Having wrestled with depression for some time (the diagnosis from a Doc was Dystimia), it was suggested by a friend who suffers from bouts of depression, and-off the record-by a psychiatrist, that I try SJW and see if it helped. The initial results were *very* promising: I felt balanced, energized and normal for the first time in I don’t know how long. Aside from some slight indigestion and grumbling bowels (which were not a problem when I took the SJW with a good breakfast), there were no immediate difficulties. However, about one month into taking SJW I began to have trouble sitting for long periods due to what felt like swollen testicles. They became very sensitive and I began to experience that most unpleasant of male maladies-cracking one’s nuts-on a daily basis. At first I thought I had another hernia (having had one 10 years ago), for the pressure and irritation on and around my lower abdomen was similar. Still, the pressure was different enough-and had started after I started taking SJW-that I suspected otherwise. Perhaps there was an unfortunate interaction between the SJW and some of the other medications I have to take (in this case, for allergies and for psoriasis). I stopped taking everything, and within 10 days the pressure on my testicles was gone. I’d like to start taking the SJW again, but want first to see if there is any knowledge or documentaion of side effects of this nature. The manufacturer’s blanket warning on the SJW bottle (more of a "cover your ass" for the parent company than a conveyor of information) mentions that one should consider avoiding the product if you’ve had prostrate enlargement in the past-yet I have found no where any mention of either prostrate enlargement or testicular swelling as a side-effect of hypercium. One book on herbal medicines did mention that while taking SJW one should abstain from coffee, tea, alcohol ("Great!…now what am I going to drink?!?) and a huge list of foods…but gave no explanation as to why someone should alter their diet such. It’s very important to me to clear up this question (hence my willingness to let it "all hang out" for the on-line world to see), for the positive effects of St Joh’s were extremely helpful in getting my life back on track. (And for the record, while I ‘ve been prescribed  Prozac, I am in no way interested in joining the ProzacNation and dealing with my situation chemically. This is an absolute last-resort measure.) Thanks to anyone who has an answer to this, J.P.

Syd                                      ****                                   Syd Baumel   author of Dealing With Depression Naturally (Keats Publishing Inc., 1995)

Response:

Dunno.. Sounds a bit ’strange’ to me.. But I have been wondering about the effects of "getting off" the stuff… Possibly (also?) just a coincidence, but I felt a ‘major case’ of the blues after going without the stuff for a few days awhile ago. Much worse than anything I can remember experiencing before starting to take the stuff!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I have a question regarding possible side-effects from St John’s Wort and have not been able to find an answer anywhere else. I’ve looked in over a dozen book that mention SJW/Hypercium and checked with two pharmacists, yet found no mention or possible explanation for my situation. Having wrestled with depression for some time (the diagnosis from a Doc was Dystimia), it was suggested by a friend who suffers from bouts of depression, and-off the record-by a psychiatrist, that I try SJW and see if it helped. The initial results were *very* promising: I felt balanced, energized and normal for the first time in I don’t know how long. Aside from some slight indigestion and grumbling bowels (which were not a problem when I took the SJW with a good breakfast), there were no immediate difficulties. However, about one month into taking SJW I began to have trouble sitting for long periods due to what felt like swollen testicles. They became very sensitive and I began to experience that most unpleasant of male maladies-cracking one’s nuts-on a daily basis. At first I thought I had another hernia (having had one 10 years ago), for the pressure and irritation on and around my lower abdomen was similar. Still, the pressure was different enough-and had started after I started taking SJW-that I suspected otherwise. Perhaps there was an unfortunate interaction between the SJW and some of the other medications I have to take (in this case, for allergies and for psoriasis). I stopped taking everything, and within 10 days the pressure on my testicles was gone. I’d like to start taking the SJW again, but want first to see if there is any knowledge or documentaion of side effects of this nature. The manufacturer’s blanket warning on the SJW bottle (more of a "cover your ass" for the parent company than a conveyor of information) mentions that one should consider avoiding the product if you’ve had prostrate enlargement in the past-yet I have found no where any mention of either prostrate enlargement or testicular swelling as a side-effect of hypercium. One book on herbal medicines did mention that while taking SJW one should abstain from coffee, tea, alcohol ("Great!…now what am I going to drink?!?) and a huge list of foods…but gave no explanation as to why someone should alter their diet such. It’s very important to me to clear up this question (hence my willingness to let it "all hang out" for the on-line world to see), for the positive effects of St Joh’s were extremely helpful in getting my life back on track. (And for the record, while I ‘ve been prescribed  Prozac, I am in no way interested in joining the ProzacNation and dealing with my situation chemically. This is an absolute last-resort measure.) Thanks to anyone who has an answer to this, J.P.

Response:

I have a question regarding possible side-effects from St John’s Wort and have not been able to find an answer anywhere else. I’ve looked in over a dozen book that mention SJW/Hypercium and checked with two pharmacists, yet found no mention or possible explanation for my situation. Having wrestled with depression for some time (the diagnosis from a Doc was Dystimia), it was suggested by a friend who suffers from bouts of depression, and-off the record-by a psychiatrist, that I try SJW and see if it helped. The initial results were *very* promising: I felt balanced, energized and normal for the first time in I don’t know how long. Aside from some slight indigestion and grumbling bowels (which were not a problem when I took the SJW with a good breakfast), there were no immediate difficulties. However, about one month into taking SJW I began to have trouble sitting for long periods due to what felt like swollen testicles. They became very sensitive and I began to experience that most unpleasant of male maladies-cracking one’s nuts-on a daily basis. At first I thought I had another hernia (having had one 10 years ago), for the pressure and irritation on and around my lower abdomen was similar. Still, the pressure was different enough-and had started after I started taking SJW-that I suspected otherwise. Perhaps there was an unfortunate interaction between the SJW and some of the other medications I have to take (in this case, for allergies and for psoriasis). I stopped taking everything, and within 10 days the pressure on my testicles was gone. I’d like to start taking the SJW again, but want first to see if there is any knowledge or documentaion of side effects of this nature. The manufacturer’s blanket warning on the SJW bottle (more of a "cover your ass" for the parent company than a conveyor of information) mentions that one should consider avoiding the product if you’ve had prostrate enlargement in the past-yet I have found no where any mention of either prostrate enlargement or testicular swelling as a side-effect of hypercium. One book on herbal medicines did mention that while taking SJW one should abstain from coffee, tea, alcohol ("Great!…now what am I going to drink?!?) and a huge list of foods…but gave no explanation as to why someone should alter their diet such. It’s very important to me to clear up this question (hence my willingness to let it "all hang out" for the on-line world to see), for the positive effects of St Joh’s were extremely helpful in getting my life back on track. (And for the record, while I ‘ve been prescribed  Prozac, I am in no way interested in joining the ProzacNation and dealing with my situation chemically. This is an absolute last-resort measure.) Thanks to anyone who has an answer to this, J.P.

Response: