Question:

Yes, but being a ‘learned scholar’ in one particular area does not mean that your ADVICE will help everyone…which ends up giving out misinformation to patients who are suffering. So instead of expounding on what your career ‘used to be’ and college degree, just try and be compassionate to share what works for you…. it may NOT work for others. The mouthwash DOES NOT do a thing for my thrush….good old mycostatin, and meds does it for me…. I  was a Med/Tech writer editor for 20yrs. but in Radiation Oncology, does that mean I can give advice on curing cancerous lymphomas? I also went to the garage several times, does that make me a mechanic?    LOL Just trying to lighten the mood. thanks

Response:

try using mouth wash( the kind that kills bacteria).  take a swig and hold it in your mouth for as long as you can then spit it out.  this will be a little uncomfortable but it helps

Response:

Dear Carrie,  I had the same problem with the pulmocort and I think you are right about the delivery system.  I rinsed my mouth out faithfully after each use and still had thrush.  I would go off the pulmicort and get the thrush cleared up and go back on it, the thrush would be back within a week.  I finally changed to flovent with the airchamber and have not had any problems.  Pam – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I use a MDI and aerochamber and I rinse my mouth out with water after using my Flovent inhaler.  Ever since I started doing that, I haven’t gotten thrush since.  I don’t know if you have been doing the same, but it has helped me. Carrie I am very upset and miserable. I have thrush again, due to my inhaler. I am on Pulmicort Turbo inhaler. I don’t know if my theory holds any water, but I wondered if I switched to a different mode of delivery….back to a metered dose inhaler…I might not get this thrush as often. With the aero-chamber and a metered dose inhaler I might be able to get it past my tongue better. I have only been on Azmacort and Pulmi-cort. Does Pulmicort come in a metered dose Inhaler? If not, which one would you recommend? Thanks so much DOn * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

do not use a mouth wash that kills bacteria. Thrush is caused by a fungus if you kill the bacteria that normally live in your mouth the naturally occurring fungus will be able to gain a stronger hold on the mucousal surfaces of your mouth and the thrush will become worse.

This information is correct. Antifungal therapy, spacers, mouth rinsing/gargling with water-(try warm water not cold- could solubilize it better), weeker steroid inhalers (I was switched from flovent to  azmacort even though i hohum about it for many reasons)..these are ways to avoid/get rid of thrush. Chilla (the Candida biologist turned science writer)

Response:

I know this information is correct. I’m a microbiologist as well;-)

BTW, hansen’t a gene been identified that produces a susceptibility to yeast infections?  I wonder if (assuming an easy and inexpensive test were available) we could identify if any particular person was more likely to develop thrush? "Keep looking below surface appearances. Don’t shrink from doing so (just) because you might not like what you find."    General Colin Powell

Response:

I know this information is correct. I’m a microbiologist as well;-)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – do not use a mouth wash that kills bacteria. Thrush is caused by a fungus if you kill the bacteria that normally live in your mouth the naturally occurring fungus will be able to gain a stronger hold on the mucousal surfaces of your mouth and the thrush will become worse. This information is correct. Antifungal therapy, spacers, mouth rinsing/gargling with water-(try warm water not cold- could solubilize it better), weeker steroid inhalers (I was switched from flovent to  azmacort even though i hohum about it for many reasons)..these are ways to avoid/get rid of thrush. Chilla (the Candida biologist turned science writer)

Response:

Yes, the mouthwash helped me a bit, temporarily,,,but didnt relieve the horrible pain, peeling, and tenderness of MY thrush; so always end up telling my doc to call in a prescription of "Nystatin" (mycostatin) oral rinse….swish and swallow, boy, does it do the trick for me in two days!!! Just thought this may help those that dont get relef from the home remedies. thanks.

Response:

I am very upset and miserable. I have thrush again, due to my inhaler. I am on Pulmicort Turbo inhaler. I don’t know if my theory holds any water, but I wondered if I switched to a different mode of delivery….back to a metered dose inhaler…I might not get this thrush as often. With the aero-chamber and a metered dose inhaler I might be able to get it past my tongue better. I have only been on Azmacort and Pulmi-cort. Does Pulmicort come in a metered dose Inhaler? If not, which one would you recommend? Thanks so much DOn * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

As far as I know, Pulmicort does not come as a MDI, which is why I’m resisting agains my Doc switching me over to it. I believe that Flovent is just as good, but you would have to ask a doc about that. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am very upset and miserable. I have thrush again, due to my inhaler. I am on Pulmicort Turbo inhaler. I don’t know if my theory holds any water, but I wondered if I switched to a different mode of delivery….back to a metered dose inhaler…I might not get this thrush as often. With the aero-chamber and a metered dose inhaler I might be able to get it past my tongue better. I have only been on Azmacort and Pulmi-cort. Does Pulmicort come in a metered dose Inhaler? If not, which one would you recommend? Thanks so much DOn * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

I use a MDI and aerochamber and I rinse my mouth out with water after using my Flovent inhaler.  Ever since I started doing that, I haven’t gotten thrush since.  I don’t know if you have been doing the same, but it has helped me. Carrie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am very upset and miserable. I have thrush again, due to my inhaler. I am on Pulmicort Turbo inhaler. I don’t know if my theory holds any water, but I wondered if I switched to a different mode of delivery….back to a metered dose inhaler…I might not get this thrush as often. With the aero-chamber and a metered dose inhaler I might be able to get it past my tongue better. I have only been on Azmacort and Pulmi-cort. Does Pulmicort come in a metered dose Inhaler? If not, which one would you recommend? Thanks so much DOn * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

do not use a mouth wash that kills bacteria. Thrush is caused by a fungus if you kill the bacteria that normally live in your mouth the naturally occurring fungus will be able to gain a stronger hold on the mucousal surfaces of your mouth and the thrush will become worse. For what it’s worth I very rarely have trouble with thrush, despite being permanently on oral steroids as well as very high dose inhaled and when I do get it eating natural yoghurt helps heaps.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – try using mouth wash( the kind that kills bacteria).  take a swig and hold it in your mouth for as long as you can then spit it out.  this will be a little uncomfortable but it helps

Response:

Question:

Wellbutrin doesn’t cause sexual side effects!  Effexor XR worked great for me but is a TOTAL b*tch to withdraw from – even if you miss one day you get nauseated and sick – bad news!  It also caused sexual side effects for me, as does Celexa – I would avoid both Celexa and Effexor XR and go for the BuSpar or try Wellbutrin. ~Melissa

Response:

Wellbutrin doesn’t cause sexual side effects!  Effexor XR worked great for me but is a TOTAL b*tch to withdraw from – even if you miss one day you get nauseated and sick – bad news!  It also caused sexual side effects for me, as does Celexa – I would avoid both Celexa and Effexor XR and go for the BuSpar or try Wellbutrin. ~Melissa

 But thats your response to Effexor Melissa. Everyone is different. I have been on Effexor XR now for about 3 months. Last weekend I missed my first daily dose, I was staying at a friends house and was so busy with things going on that I just forgot to take my Effexor. I experienced no side effects at all – none. The next day I took my usual dose of 75mg without noticing anything out of the ordinary. I don’t think you can’t lump everyone into the same catagory – people respond differently. So far Effexor XR has helped me a lot.

Response:

My wife has been suffering from daily anxiety for some time now. It may be related to her diagnoses of multiple sclerosis over a year ago; her menopausal phase; or her hypothyroidism. After taking hormone replacement therapy and synthroid for the thyroid problem, she still has daily anxiety. She has been treating it with Ativan but her doc recommend an anti-depressent. Here’s the problem: her GP recommends Celexa; her neurologist recommends Effexor; and her psychiatrist recommended Buspar (and maybe a second drug as well.) She tried Prozac years ago and it worked well except she lost all interest in sex or orgasm was near impossible. My question is…can anyone give some insight into possible side effects of the 3 ADs mentioned? What might she expect? What about withdrawl from them? Getting off of Prozac was a bitch. Any help would be appreciated.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My wife has been suffering from daily anxiety for some time now. It may be related to her diagnoses of multiple sclerosis over a year ago; her menopausal phase; or her hypothyroidism. After taking hormone replacement therapy and synthroid for the thyroid problem, she still has daily anxiety. She has been treating it with Ativan but her doc recommend an anti-depressent. Here’s the problem: her GP recommends Celexa; her neurologist recommends Effexor; and her psychiatrist recommended Buspar (and maybe a second drug as well.) She tried Prozac years ago and it worked well except she lost all interest in sex or orgasm was near impossible. My question is…can anyone give some insight into possible side effects of the 3 ADs mentioned? What might she expect? What about withdrawl from them? Getting off of Prozac was a bitch. Any help would be appreciated.

Buspar in not like any other anxiety drug and not use for panick attack. It takes effect after a few weeks and does not interfere with the interest in sex. On the contrary, some say that at high dosage, it helps. The only sundesirable side effects i have experienced with Buspar is, sometimes, dizziness and tiredness. Il helps to take the medication with a very large glass of water. If you experience panick attack you could had attivan or something similar for a couple of days. ap

Response:

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dan wrote…… I take xanax before going to bed and get to slepp usually within 10 minutes, but I allways awaken about 1.5 to 2 hours later feeling anxious, and sweating terribly. My hands have gone to sleep due to poor circulation. What is the best med for sleep? PLEASE! Dear Dan, There is a good chance that you are undermedicated when it come to Xanax, the should discuss this with your doctor. How long have you been on Zoloft, what is your current dose and do you feel it has helped you any? How is your anxiety during the day? If Zoloft hasn`t helped you much and is causing you to sleep poorly…..perhaps instead of adding yet another med why not switch to another antidepressant? I have gone through stages where my hands are always falling alseep while I am sleeping I have a bad habit of tucking my arms under my head and that is whats makes them fall asleep. Take care Jackie "Our ultimate freedom is the right and power to decide how anybody or anything outside ourselves will affect us." -Stephen Covey

Jackie-I do the same thing you do with my hands under head for sleepling. I assumed it was just poor circulation that caused the numness, Today a doctor told me it is carpel tunnel that is causing them to go to sleep–or probably a pinched nerve.

Response:

I can get ambien here in FLorida a hell of a lot easier than I can get xanax around here.. Ambien, sonata… (guess cause they aren’t in high demand on the street…)

There’s no problem with the availability of Ambien elsewhere, either. It’s zopiclone that can’t generally be obtained in the US, though it is available in Europe. I personally found zopiclone more effective than Ambien, though Ambien is quite good. -David-

Response:

What is the best med for sleep? PLEASE! Ambien (zolpidem) is pretty good, I found. It’s more or less unique. There is also zopiclone, if you can get a script for it (it’s not generally available in the US).

I can get ambien here in FLorida a hell of a lot easier than I can get xanax around here.. Ambien, sonata… (guess cause they aren’t in high demand on the street…) Or you could try a sedating antidepressant like amitriptyline, doxepin, or mirtazapine (Remeron). But these work in a different way for sleeplessness, and may not work for everyone. -David-

when I added remeron to my xanax and zoloft (4mg and 100mg respectively daily) I have had a much easier time sleeping… YMMV. Much Love, Brooke

Response:

I take xanax before going to bed and get to slepp usually within 10 minutes, but I allways awaken about 1.5 to 2 hours later feeling anxious, and sweating terribly. My hands have gone to sleep due to poor circulation. What is the best med for sleep? PLEASE!

Response:

What is the best med for sleep? PLEASE!

Ambien (zolpidem) is pretty good, I found. It’s more or less unique. There is also zopiclone, if you can get a script for it (it’s not generally available in the US). Or you could try a sedating antidepressant like amitriptyline, doxepin, or mirtazapine (Remeron). But these work in a different way for sleeplessness, and may not work for everyone. -David-

Response:

Dan wrote…… I take xanax before going to bed and get to slepp usually within 10 minutes, but I allways awaken about 1.5 to 2 hours later feeling anxious, and sweating terribly. My hands have gone to sleep due to poor circulation. What is the best med for sleep? PLEASE!

Dear Dan, There is a good chance that you are undermedicated when it come to Xanax, the should discuss this with your doctor. How long have you been on Zoloft, what is your current dose and do you feel it has helped you any? How is your anxiety during the day? If Zoloft hasn`t helped you much and is causing you to sleep poorly…..perhaps instead of adding yet another med why not switch to another antidepressant? I have gone through stages where my hands are always falling alseep while I am sleeping I have a bad habit of tucking my arms under my head and that is whats makes them fall asleep. Take care Jackie "Our ultimate freedom is the right and power to decide how anybody or anything outside ourselves will affect us." -Stephen Covey

Response:

Question:

Justin,     Depression is a bummer, in and of itself. Have you asked your doc to check other things out? I have a thyroid problem and one of the things that surfaces with it is depression and a tendency to sleep 14 hours a day ( really ), skin problems, other health problems can accompany it. Most docs blow us off because, as men, we are in the minority with this, and so they seldom screen for it. Having checked a few things back for about 20 years or more, it is highly probable I’ve had for some time. A couple of simple blood tests and you’ll have a good idea if it is or isn’t, but it is not normal to be depressed and it would be one less worry. It could be something so simple but life changing as this that it would be prudent to discuss it with your doc.     A good place to ask for more question on this might be Alt.Support.Thyroid , as they are good, gentle folks with a lot of answers pertaining to what you’ve described, and it is quite possible to have a life changing event cause a temporary health issue. If that isn’t the case, feel free to vent, rant, or rave here. We’ll listen.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This post is not divorce, but I do need help. I have posted at other ng some have been helpful others have not. I’m looking for advice, I will be preprared to take it. Which can be hard for me. I have posted here before. My name is Justin, I’m 22/m I feel like my life is a real mess, I don’t know how to get out of this rut. Most days I rather be dead then go on. I don’t feel like I will neber ever, ever get better It starts here. Im upset because I feel like I  disappointed my parents at many levels. After graduating high school in 98′ I went off to the University Of Toledo. I stayed 5 days. I left because I was paranoid about some stuff from high school, which I rather not mention. Upon coming home I worked several jobs. I didn’t stay at many because I was too paranoid. I eventually became house bound. The only time I left was to see my doctor. Its almost like my mom hated my mom for not understanding my problems. I wasn’t a perfect kid, but most of my problems stemed from this issue. I finally moved in with my father. I did get better. I started doing the phones at his office and became confident. But living with my father was hell. He made me ill and I became aneroxic at some level. I’m about 5′11" I dropped down to 135Ib. Eventually I moved out. I couldn’t  stand the asshole. I did it overnight without hi knowing (If you ask my father he will tell you what a rotten kid I was) I then moved into an apartment. In a good neighborhood. But even in good areas there are some real nuts. The lady who lived across from me was a cocaine addict. She even proposition me for sex in the middle of the night. I didn’t touch the skank. Eventually, I moved out of that apartment and one across the street. I then met up with this dude, while working at the movie theatre. That was a bad sitution. He never took showers. He left meatloaf out for weeks, he had cereal all over the floor in his room. The list goes on and on. The apartment managers let me break my lease. I now live by myself(boy, im glad I don’t live with anyone) Then 7 months ago. I was so depressed I hooked up with some guy I met on the net. I regret doing this, one because Im not gay. But I was so unhappy. I would do anything to relieve stress. Lately, I look at porn on the net because Im miserable. Then last week I got fired from my job at Nordstroms as a dishwasher.. I was only there for about 5 weeks. So it wasn’t a big deal. The reason is I don’t know how  to do washes. I also put the trash in the wrong place a few times. I know this was my fault. I got a little lazy. The last day I was there this dude got in my face and was yelling at me about how I don’t know how to do dishes. He put his finger in my face. I dont look weak now. I now weigh abou 170 5′11" medium build. Im pissed another dude got in my face. I told my grandfather what happened he said i "fucked up" and on the wrong track in life. Today, its 5:30 am. I feel like shit. I’m thinking about cutting school. I sleep like 14 hrs a day. Im so depressed, and even a little suicidal. I have bad obsessions. I’m always concerned with my looks. I always think Im ugly, but I’m not I’m actually good looking. I stand in the mirrors for awhile picking at whats wrong with my face, and how i could correct it. I’m seething about some other things. I was talking to this kid I know from one of the ng. I told him how sometimes I read posts with advice and I get upset. He told me im too emotional, and then he said im as emotional as a woman. After he said that I started insulting him like crazy. I usually feel bad when Im brutally mean to people this time, I wasn’t. I could barley sleep last  night because of this comment. I don’t feel like I will get over this comment. Boy, am I angry. Then last night I read a helpful post on here. Anyway, I took it the wrong way and got upset. I was then obsessing about it all last night and still am. The comment was just how relationships are 50/50 nothing bad. Well, I then started to worry that Im just a totaly self-absorbed dude. Which Im not, except when it comes to my problems.  I see myself being absorbed in them. After I read that post I was got all paranoid that when Im not absorbed in my own problems Im not interested in others. I dont want people to see me like this, so now im very worried. So I traced back to all the people I talk to at school and wondered if I seemed interested in them. And I did. But now I fear that I will worry if  I seem interested in people and watch everything I say, and maybe say things just so I seem interested. Maybe ask them questions that I might not normally do. I once did this before and I felt fake. I rather be mother fucking dead then to have this obsession return and thats what its fucking doing. To some this may seem like nothing to me this is a huge deal. I rather stay home then bare this worry. What’s funny is people do REALLY like me. People ask me where the parties are, boy if they only knew how horrible my life is. I once took a survery at the mall while I had some extra time. The kid doing the survey was in high school. He said I bet your a frat boy. Its funny because I see myself as an ugly, loser fuck. Will I get better? I have been going through hell for the last 5 years I see a doc, take meds, do everything. nothin works Justin

Response:

 But now I fear that I will worry if  I seem interested in people and watch everything I say, and maybe say things just so I seem interested. Maybe ask them questions that I might not normally do. I once did this before and I felt fake. I rather be mother fucking dead then to have this obsession return and thats what its fucking doing. To some this may seem like nothing to me this is a huge deal. I rather stay home then bare this worry.

Ask your doc if you can get into some sort of support group for obsessives.   I think obsessions can be an offshoot from anxiety disorders, and are not exactly the same as depression.  But ask a pro, i really don’t know.  I do know from experience that medications made obsessions worse for me.  I still deal with them but they’re more under control, and even channeled into positive things sometimes…  I wonder if your past anorexia is related to that, also?  I was told it was all related.  Congrats on getting past that part, that’s a big step that shouldn’t go unnoticed. Good luck.  

Response:

Justin, I am sorry you are feeling so depressed and going through sucha horrible time of it. But As you say this is a divorce support group and I don;t know how much good posting here will do, have you tried posting on the Alt. Support Depressed or depression NG? Have you tired talking to people, to friends to the doctor even?

Response:

This post is not divorce, but I do need help. I have posted at other ng some have been helpful others have not. I’m looking for advice, I will be preprared to take it. Which can be hard for me. I have posted here before. My name is Justin, I’m 22/m Will I get better? I have been going through hell for the last 5 years SNIP, SNIP, SNIP I see a doc, take meds, do everything. nothin works Justin

Will you get better?  Sure you will!  It’s obvious to me that you are TOO HARD ON YOURSELF.  When I was 22 years old I felt the same way…which is pitiful because very few people have found themselves at such an early age…meanwhile a lot of your friends have graduated from college and look like they had all the self-direction in the world.  Don’t believe it. You need to send a cheap little greeting card to your parents every now and then.  Falling out of contact is not very good psychology….even if you’re at a place in life when you don’t like them and think their values stink. I’m going to sing a song… listen to the words… DESYREL, LITHIUM, ZOLOFT, XANAX, LORAZAPAM, NORTRIPTOLEAN, PROZAC and PAXIL. It took over seven years of trial and error to get the right medication before life began to be bearable.   You want advice?  Contruct a diary of your moods and chart the highs and lows.  Write a lil’ story about your past history of abuse and addiction. 2. Go back to your medical doctor and tell him you want to visit a psychiatrist.  He’ll give you a medical referral 3.   A good psychiatrist will ask you 50-100 questions…in rapid fire… He’ll then construct a baseline on where you are right now verses where you ought to be.  4) You’ll have routine visits with him– adjusting medication. PS You know you’re not a loser…just take better care of yourself.

Response:

This post is not divorce, but I do need help. I have posted at other ng some have been helpful others have not. I’m looking for advice, I will be preprared to take it. Which can be hard for me. I have posted here before. My name is Justin, I’m 22/m I feel like my life is a real mess, I don’t know how to get out of this rut. Most days I rather be dead then go on. I don’t feel like I will neber ever, ever get better It starts here. Im upset because I feel like I  disappointed my parents at many levels. After graduating high school in 98′ I went off to the University Of Toledo. I stayed 5 days. I left because I was paranoid about some stuff from high school, which I rather not mention. Upon coming home I worked several jobs. I didn’t stay at many because I was too paranoid. I eventually became house bound. The only time I left was to see my doctor. Its almost like my mom hated my mom for not understanding my problems. I wasn’t a perfect kid, but most of my problems stemed from this issue. I finally moved in with my father. I did get better. I started doing the phones at his office and became confident. But living with my father was hell. He made me ill and I became aneroxic at some level. I’m about 5′11" I dropped down to 135Ib. Eventually I moved out. I couldn’t  stand the asshole. I did it overnight without hi knowing (If you ask my father he will tell you what a rotten kid I was) I then moved into an apartment. In a good neighborhood. But even in good areas there are some real nuts. The lady who lived across from me was a cocaine addict. She even proposition me for sex in the middle of the night. I didn’t touch the skank. Eventually, I moved out of that apartment and one across the street. I then met up with this dude, while working at the movie theatre. That was a bad sitution. He never took showers. He left meatloaf out for weeks, he had cereal all over the floor in his room. The list goes on and on. The apartment managers let me break my lease. I now live by myself(boy, im glad I don’t live with anyone) Then 7 months ago. I was so depressed I hooked up with some guy I met on the net. I regret doing this, one because Im not gay. But I was so unhappy. I would do anything to relieve stress. Lately, I look at porn on the net because Im miserable. Then last week I got fired from my job at Nordstroms as a dishwasher.. I was only there for about 5 weeks. So it wasn’t a big deal. The reason is I don’t know how  to do washes. I also put the trash in the wrong place a few times. I know this was my fault. I got a little lazy. The last day I was there this dude got in my face and was yelling at me about how I don’t know how to do dishes. He put his finger in my face. I dont look weak now. I now weigh abou 170 5′11" medium build. Im pissed another dude got in my face. I told my grandfather what happened he said i "fucked up" and on the wrong track in life. Today, its 5:30 am. I feel like shit. I’m thinking about cutting school. I sleep like 14 hrs a day. Im so depressed, and even a little suicidal. I have bad obsessions. I’m always concerned with my looks. I always think Im ugly, but I’m not I’m actually good looking. I stand in the mirrors for awhile picking at whats wrong with my face, and how i could correct it. I’m seething about some other things. I was talking to this kid I know from one of the ng. I told him how sometimes I read posts with advice and I get upset. He told me im too emotional, and then he said im as emotional as a woman. After he said that I started insulting him like crazy. I usually feel bad when Im brutally mean to people this time, I wasn’t. I could barley sleep last  night because of this comment. I don’t feel like I will get over this comment. Boy, am I angry. Then last night I read a helpful post on here. Anyway, I took it the wrong way and got upset. I was then obsessing about it all last night and still am. The comment was just how relationships are 50/50 nothing bad. Well, I then started to worry that Im just a totaly self-absorbed dude. Which Im not, except when it comes to my problems.  I see myself being absorbed in them. After I read that post I was got all paranoid that when Im not absorbed in my own problems Im not interested in others. I dont want people to see me like this, so now im very worried. So I traced back to all the people I talk to at school and wondered if I seemed interested in them. And I did. But now I fear that I will worry if  I seem interested in people and watch everything I say, and maybe say things just so I seem interested. Maybe ask them questions that I might not normally do. I once did this before and I felt fake. I rather be mother fucking dead then to have this obsession return and thats what its fucking doing. To some this may seem like nothing to me this is a huge deal. I rather stay home then bare this worry. What’s funny is people do REALLY like me. People ask me where the parties are, boy if they only knew how horrible my life is. I once took a survery at the mall while I had some extra time. The kid doing the survey was in high school. He said I bet your a frat boy. Its funny because I see myself as an ugly, loser fuck. Will I get better? I have been going through hell for the last 5 years I see a doc, take meds, do everything. nothin works Justin

Response:

Question:

They say imitation is the sincerest form of flattery… But somebody just ripped off my whole Keywords: line! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Lynd…@bigfoot.com (LyndaNP) wrote:

One of the best ways to learn about medication effects–both positive and negative–is by comparing notes with other patients.  The following index links to forum posts discussing each particular medication.  Read what others have had to say about your medication and share your own experiences. Adapin, Sinequan (doxepin) Anafranil (clomipramine) Buspar (buspirone) Desyrel (trazodone) Celexa (citalopram) Effexor (venlafaxine) Elavil, Endep (amitriptyline) Luvox (fluvoxamine) Nardil (phenelzine) Norpramin, Pertofrane (desipramine) Pamelor (nortryptyline) Parnate (tranylcypromine) Paxil, Seroxat (paroxetine) Prozac (fluoxetine) Remeron (mirtazapine) Serzone  (nefazodone) Surmontil (trimipramine) Tofranil (imipramine) Vestra (reboxetine) Wellbutrin (bupropion) Zoloft (sertraline) — LyndaNP

— "Thou shalt not suffer a witch [poisoner] to live" – Exodus 22:18 "A man or a woman who is a medium or a wizard shall be put to death" – Leviticus 20:27 More more info, visit http://www.drugawareness.org

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No Shit?

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Question:

Hi Everyone, I haven’t posted here before- I’m hoping to find someone here who understands what I’m going through.  I am dealing with the trauma of being sexually abused by my ex-husband and started having flashbacks about a month ago.  It’s been a year since we divorced but I just began to acknowledge that what he did to me was sexual abuse last October.  I think I repressed a lot of the memories because they were too painful to confront.  I was raped on numerous occasions throughout our relationship but at the time didn’t want to acknowledge that rape could happen between married people.  Most of the information I find on sexual abuse is about children who have been abused, which is a horrible thing for any child to have to go through, but I feel alone in that my sexual abuse happened in my adulthood and with the person who said he loved me.   I started taking Zoloft recently for depression and PTSD- supposedly Zoloft has been approved to treat PTSD and the anxiety and stress related to it.  It seems to be helping and I haven’t had any flashbacks since being on it but I’m getting headaches and feeling fatigued most of the time.  Does anyone else taking Zoloft have these side effects?  Just curious. Thanks for reading! Amy

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Amy, Welcome to the ng.  You experiences are not uncommon and although many of us may have experienced differing traumas – the way we react, the symptoms of PTSD are usually extremely similar. It is good that you are getting help now.  The sooner people are treated after the trauma, the chance that the severity of your symptoms can be lessened.  Keep it up – therapy and medications are our most useful tools right now. Medications are often a trial and error process too.  Side effects such as headaches and fatigue may lessen with time.  Most SSRIs like Zoloft need 6 to 8 weeks to become fully effective. If side effects are still present and hard to deal with after 2-3 months, it might be an idea to try another one.  Effexor has also been found to be effective against PTSD.  I’ve taken Prozac, Effexor and am now on Wellbutrin and find they all help to differing degrees.  I changed from Prozac to Effexor because of persistant headaches, then changed to Wellbutrin because of I couldn’t control my weight on the other two.  It takes time but the end result is worth it. There are some good websites with alot of information on PTSD and medications: http://www.trauma-pages.com/index.phtml http://www.ptsd.com/ http://www.mentalhealth.com/ Feel free to ask any questions and take care! Lesleyanne Visit my homepage at http://home.thezone.net/~chech * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

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Hi Lesleyanne, Thanks for replying to my post.  So how does PTSD affect you?  For me, the flashbacks can be brief recollections or I can actually feel like the trauma is reoccurring- kind of a suspension of reality if you know what I mean.  I also deal with this low-level ongoing sense of anxiety. So it actually helps to deal with the trauma sooner rather than waiting? Sometimes I wonder if it’s worth pursuing the trauma- if one can actually reach some kind of resolve.  I’m hoping so. Thanks for the info on the medications.  It helps. Take Care, Amy

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Amy, It is important to deal with the trauma in your therapy.  You need to understand how your condition has progressed from the trauma to your current symptoms.  It helps your mind come to terms with how it has affected you.  A good therapist can help with this while medication helps the symptoms. Dealing with the trauma as quickly as possible after the trauma has ended is key – you can see how this idea is practiced after the school shootings in the states where counsellors are brought in immediately and the students are encouraged to talk about their feelings.  In such cases, followups are imperative so as to intervene if symptoms begin to show. If this had happened for me I have no doubt that I would be in much better shape.  I even saw a psychiatrist after I returned from Bosnia in 94, but he treated me as if I was a trouble maker and indicated that if I didn’t stop, my career would be in jeopardy.  This was all too common practice in the canadian forces up to recently when they initiated a host of programs to prevent and treat PTSD in veterans.  Too late for me and alot of other people….which is what forced them to act. Right now, most of my symptoms are kept in check with medication – wellbutrin and imovane (for sleep).  I don’t work and am waiting for my release from the armed forces.  That in itself I believe will be a great relief for me.  I can’t wait. Take Care Lesleyanne Visit my homepage at http://home.thezone.net/~chech * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

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On 04 Mar 2000 22:26:26 GMT, swissc…@aol.com (SwissChsy) wrote: Hi Amy,

Most of the information I find on sexual abuse is about children who have been abused, which is a horrible thing for any child to have to go through, but I feel alone in that my sexual abuse happened in my adulthood and with the person who said he loved me.  

People here have PTSD from many different types of traumas, but I think that quite often folks can still relate to each other, because they have been through some very difficult experiences or are living with the symptoms of PTSD. You might be able to find some articles, resources, etc, out there however, which do address your own trauma more specifically. I would try looking around on some of the PTSD-related websites out there, including: http://www.trauma-pages.com/index.phtml I hope that helps. Perhaps it might also be worthwhile finding out if there are any active groups/organisations in the area for women who have been through an abusive relationship, as they might be able to offer you support, or to put you in touch with other women who have survived a similar situation…? Just a thought anyway. Either way, welcome to the newsgroup.  :^) Mae Tang (replace "nospam" with "nu-it" for a valid e-mail address) The Scampering Rat Page http://www.nu-it.demon.co.uk/scamp/

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Hi Amy, I just wanted to let you know that you aren’t alone…. I too was sexually (physically and mentally) abused by my ex. as an adult. When you wrote "with the person who said he loved me" it really hit home for me. I believe my ex really thought he loved me… but his idea or definition of love is a hell of a lot different then mine. It makes me so angry when I hear people deny that rape occurs between husband and wife, I am not referring to your self denial that events happened to you… that I understand, but rape is rape no matter how the rapist is related to the victim. I hope you improve with your side affects from the medication and I wish you the best, Patricia. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

I haven’t posted here before- I’m hoping to find someone here who understands what I’m going through.  I am dealing with the trauma of being sexually abused by my ex-husband and started having flashbacks about a month ago.  It’s been a year since we divorced but I just began to acknowledge that what he did to me was sexual abuse last October.  I think I repressed a lot of the memories because they were too painful to confront.  I was raped on numerous occasions throughout our relationship but at the time didn’t want to acknowledge that rape could happen between married people.  Most of the information I find on sexual abuse is about children who have been abused, which is a horrible thing for any child to have to go through, but I feel alone in that my sexual abuse happened in my adulthood and with the person who said he loved me. I started taking Zoloft recently for depression and PTSD- supposedly Zoloft has been approved to treat PTSD and the anxiety and stress related to it.  It seems to be helping and I haven’t had any flashbacks since being on it but I’m getting headaches and feeling fatigued most of the time.  Does anyone else taking Zoloft have these side effects?  Just curious. Thanks for reading! Amy

___________________________________________________________________________ ___ Total Internet privacy — get your Freedom pseudonym at http://www.freedom.net

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Amy, everyone, I am sorry for the offensive language in my previous message. This is the first time my anger got the better of me and I should have waited until I cooled down a bit. It won’t happen again. Patricia. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Hi Everyone, I haven’t posted here before- I’m hoping to find someone here who understands what I’m going through.  I am dealing with the trauma of being sexually abused by my ex-husband and started having flashbacks about a month ago.  It’s been a year since we divorced but I just began to acknowledge that what he did to me was sexual abuse last October.  I think I repressed a lot of the memories because they were too painful to confront.  I was raped on numerous occasions throughout our relationship but at the time didn’t want to acknowledge that rape could happen between married people.  Most of the information I find on sexual abuse is about children who have been abused, which is a horrible thing for any child to have to go through, but I feel alone in that my sexual abuse happened in my adulthood and with the person who said he loved me. I started taking Zoloft recently for depression and PTSD- supposedly Zoloft has been approved to treat PTSD and the anxiety and stress related to it.  It seems to be helping and I haven’t had any flashbacks since being on it but I’m getting headaches and feeling fatigued most of the time.  Does anyone else taking Zoloft have these side effects?  Just curious. Thanks for reading! Amy

___________________________________________________________________________ ___ Total Internet privacy — get your Freedom pseudonym at http://www.freedom.net

Response:

Amy Your post was in no way offensive.  Actually I believe some swearing when you want to vent is not out of the rhelm of the reasonable.  For some reason, some of these words help relieve some of the tension. For my part, I started swearing in French after 4 years in Quebec, so when I returned to an english environment I could swear all I wanted and no one had a clue what I was saying – but it felt just as good. Lesleyanne Visit my homepage at http://home.thezone.net/~chech * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

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Hi Lesleyanne, Actually Patricia was the one who wrote the e-mail she apologized for.  I agree with you- I wasn’t offended by what she said- anger is a normal response to being abused, if anger comes out, so be it.  Letting it out helps to heal, keeping it in eats away at a person. Thanks, Amy

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oops, sorry…..i’ve been having brain farts all week.  I still think it’s Friday. Tabernaque!!! Lesleyanne Visit my homepage at http://home.thezone.net/~chech * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

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Question:

I’ve been on an antidepressant (Effexor) for about six months now. It has been remarkably effective for the depression, but is affecting the quality of my sleep.  I’ve tried taking it at different times if the day, but still have problems.  One thing I notice in particular is that I often wake up after about five hours of sleep and feel tired, but mentally alert.  If I go ahead and go into the office to work super-early, my production is outstanding for about half the day. I get to feeling  very run down after lunch though.   If I go back to bed after waking up alert like this, I am usually able to drift off for another 1-2 hours of sleep.  Unfortunately, after sleeping an extra hour or two,  I FIND IT ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE TO GET UP. Even after loading up on coffee, no-doz, etc., I feel groggy all day.  I guess I don’t understand sleep cycles. How can I be more tired from sleeping two extra hours?  Does this have anything to do with which sleep cycle I’m in when the alarm goes off?  Any ideas on this will be appreciated.

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Hello, DGA – Have you ever been tested for a sleep disorder?  For years doctors tried to tell me that I was suffering from depression because I was sleepy all of the time.  Finally I was diagnosed first with sleep apnea and five years with narcolepsy.  I don’t know how long I had apnea before it was diagnosed, but I had had the narcolepsy for 37 years!  Having untreated sleep disorders can depress anyone! Kent Taylor (Mongo) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -DGA wrote in message …

I’ve been on an antidepressant (Effexor) for about six months now. It has been remarkably effective for the depression, but is affecting the quality of my sleep.  I’ve tried taking it at different times if the day, but still have problems.  One thing I notice in particular is that I often wake up after about five hours of sleep and feel tired, but mentally alert.  If I go ahead and go into the office to work super-early, my production is outstanding for about half the day. I get to feeling  very run down after lunch though.   If I go back to bed after waking up alert like this, I am usually able to drift off for another 1-2 hours of sleep.  Unfortunately, after sleeping an extra hour or two,  I FIND IT ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE TO GET UP. Even after loading up on coffee, no-doz, etc., I feel groggy all day.  I guess I don’t understand sleep cycles. How can I be more tired from sleeping two extra hours?  Does this have anything to do with which sleep cycle I’m in when the alarm goes off?  Any ideas on this will be appreciated.

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On Wed, 04 Aug 1999 19:16:58 GMT, "DGA" <davea…@flash.net

wrote: I’ve been on an antidepressant (Effexor) for about six months now. It has been remarkably effective for the depression, but is affecting the quality of my sleep.  I’ve tried taking it at different times if the day, but still have problems.  One thing I notice in particular is that I often wake up after about five hours of sleep and feel tired, but mentally alert.  If I go ahead and go into the office to work super-early, my production is outstanding for about half the day. I get to feeling  very run down after lunch though.   If I go back to bed after waking up alert like this, I am usually able to drift off for another 1-2 hours of sleep.  Unfortunately, after sleeping an extra hour or two,  I FIND IT ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE TO GET UP. Even after loading up on coffee, no-doz, etc., I feel groggy all day.  I guess I don’t understand sleep cycles. How can I be more tired from sleeping two extra hours?  Does this have anything to do with which sleep cycle I’m in when the alarm goes off?  Any ideas on this will be appreciated.

Try setting an alarm to limit your nap to 20-30 minutes.  Most people will be somewhat refreshed by that without having the body go into the "very groggy" state you describe. When you go to sleep, there are a lot of things that slow down – not just heartrate, many other body systems do this.  By going to sleep for 1-2 hours you give your body time to completely shut down – and you’ve seen how hard it is to get it started again.  By taking a short nap you don’t give your body time to completely shut down, so starting up again is a lot easier. In college I pulled a few long nights now and again.  I found that if I finished early enough to get 3 or more hours of sleep it was worth going to bed.  If I was going to get 1-2 hours (just as you describe) it did the same thing for me it is doing to you – made me really groggy the next day.  So if there was only time for 1-2 hours I just stayed awake (hadn’t been told about short naps then).

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DGA wrote:

I’ve been on an antidepressant (Effexor) for about six months now. It has been remarkably effective for the depression, but is affecting the quality of my sleep.

Greetings!  You’ve definitely come the right spot to talk about sleep problems.  Just remember that most of us here are not medical professionals. We can offer our own experience, and that of others, but it’s just that … our own thoughts and opinions, not a medical training!

One thing I notice in particular is that I often wake up after about five hours of sleep and feel tired, but mentally alert.  …

You might want to check out the patient information for this drug.  You can search for it at http://www.rxlist.com/ where I found indications that this drug for a small percentage of people slightly (very slightly) increased the incidence of insomnia and somnolence. You might want to discuss this with your doctor.  Additionally as Kent pointed out, your depression might well be connnected to sleep problems. Also, (and remember this is my own experience only) you might want to change the time you sleep to 1.5 hours instead of 2 hours.  I find that I feel more rested when I get a multiple of 90 minutes of sleep. Regards, =jbf= John B. Fisher

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I was on Effexor for depression but went off of it. I am very groggy when I get up my resting heartbeat is faster than it should be. and I am always in alot of pains. ie. lower back, etc. among other stress and the like.

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DGA wrote:

I’ve been on an antidepressant (Effexor) for about six months now. I guess I don’t understand sleep cycles. How can I be more tired from sleeping two extra hours?  Does this have anything to do with which sleep cycle I’m in when the alarm goes off?  Any ideas on this will be appreciated.

I’ve been on Effexor for 5 years.  It has caused two sleep related problems for me.  The first is called Rem Behavioral Disorder.  This is a condition where you "act out" your dreams, and it makes your sleep non-restful.  The second is called "Periodic Leg Movement Disorder."  I had a related problem (called Restless Leg Syndrome) before I went on Effexor, but SSRIs can make it much worse.  If you have PLMD without RLS, then you probably don’t even know you have it, and Effexor can make it get much worse.  PLMD means you kick your legs every minute or two, all night long.  (except when you are dreaming) The kicks cause you to stay in a less-restful stage of sleep, and keep you from getting enough of the deep sleep you need in order to get real rest. I have noticed over the years on Effexor that if I wake up naturally, then go back to sleep, I will end up sleeping for up to a whole DAY before I can manage to get myself back out of bed.  (Unless something scares me awake, or my wife physically drags my butt out of bed.) I haven’t ever heard about this before, and I always assumed it was because the meds I take for sleep wear off by morning time.  But you are right, it doesn’t seem to make a lot of sense.  I’ll ask my psychiatrist about it, and see if I can find anything about it on the net. One thing you might want to consider is the VERY short halflife of Effexor.  Do you usually take it in the morning?  If you take it when you get up, but you put off getting up, then that _might_ make it so that you start to experience the very mild beginnings of withdrawal.  Effexor withdrawal can be VERY nasty, and it generally involves migraine headaches, _massive_ periods of fragmented sleep where you often can’t clearly distinguish between being awake and being asleep, and vertigo/balance problems.  I’m on Effexor XR, so that I can get by with only one dose per day.  With normal Effexor, I had to take it twice a day, and if I was more than an hour or two late for the dose, I’d start having the headaches, dizziness, etc. About your weird problems when going back to sleep though, with ME, it seems like I stay in a sleep which is kind of like the sleep I have when I’m going through Effexor withdrawal.  I’m 1/2 awake, and 1/2 asleep, and it is impossible to tell if I’m dreaming or not. Any time I experience that "weird sleep," I usually end up not being able to get out of bed for a long time, and I always end up being exhausted for at least 12 hours or so afterwards.  It’s probably some weird sleep problem caused by Effexor, which someone will end up "discovering" in 10 years.  :) Anyway, my best suggestion is to just get up after 5 hours, and try to stick it out til your normal bedtime the next night.  If you need more than 5 hours sleep per night, then eventually the sleep deficit should help you sleep later.  I don’t have ANY idea what to do about the weird grogginess after going back to sleep.  I never even really gave it much thought as being a problem separate from my OTHER sleep problems until I read your post.  Thanks for the info.  :) -Bret Wood -bretw…@cs.uoregon.edu

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Question:

My hair is thinning, a side effect of zoloft. Any one else have this problem? If I change meds, will my hair come back? Thank you. < Some Prozac people report hair loss, as well. Try MDMA. Lizy

What is MDA

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My hair is thinning, a side effect of zoloft. Any one else have this problem?

If I change meds, will my hair come back? Thank you. < Some Prozac people report hair loss, as well. Try MDMA. Lizy

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My hair is thinning, a side effect of zoloft. Any one else have this problem? If I change meds, will my hair come back? Thank you.

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Question:

x-no archive : yes Hi Cheryl – I am the OTHER Cheryl – Hi ASED! I haven’t been on the Board much lately, but I am the Old doll, the redhead, the former Binge eater – just didn’t want to confuse anyone – maybe one of us could change our name on the Board – what do you think ? I just don’t want anyone to be confused with two of us here !! With love and support to you all – Cheryl.

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there is a new drug that was approved in this country (US) in July called Celexa.  my pdoc just told me about it because i was having bad side effects from effexor.  i’ve only been reading about it on the intenet…it’s still so new.  look it up under any search engine.  i can’t remember how it works but it is classified as an antidepressant. cheers, cheryl – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Has anyone heard of this medication?  Not sure if it is Selexa, or Xelexa, my doc said it is common in Europe, and is thinking of having me try it, as I can’t seem to increase my dose of Paxil over 10mg, for the bingeing, and depression, and he said it isn’t a therapeutic dose.  Just wondering if anyone ever heard of it, and what the experiences were with it. Suzy

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Maybe you are thinking of "Zyprexa," or "Olanzapine," which is fairly new in the USA.  It is an antipsychotic which is being used sometimes to alleviate "delusional thinking" (body dysmorphia) and other aspects of EDs. –Connie   clixpix

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Has anyone heard of this medication?  Not sure if it is Selexa, or Xelexa, my doc said it is common in Europe, and is thinking of having me try it, as I can’t seem to increase my dose of Paxil over 10mg, for the bingeing, and depression, and he said it isn’t a therapeutic dose.  Just wondering if anyone ever heard of it, and what the experiences were with it. Suzy

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Question:

I’ve no idea about the relative pressures involved, but perhaps someone here could cast a bit of light? Maybe by studying old saxophonists we could make a guess about the long-term effects of CPAP without doing the experiment the slow way. Perhaps, but you have to be able to establish: 1. That damage to the lungs is occurring

This will be complicated by existing pulmonary disease, since existing disease is difficult to differentiate from barotrauma.

2. That said damage is by CPAP, and not by the apnea or   other possible causes.

This could most be deduced by pulmonary markers before and after use of CPAP. If you don’t know the complete and comprehensive state of your pulmonary health prior to CPAP use, then any pulmonary damage subsequent to CPAP use will be difficult to trace, er, Tracey.

3. That if CPAP damage does occur, it is does substantially   more damage than either other forms of (possibly ineffective)   treatments, or by leaving the apnea untreated.

This has got to be the most penetrating statement I have ever heard.  This is the epiphany.  Weighing the risks.  Therefore, weighing *all* the risks is better than only having some of the more palatable risks available for scrutiny.

For example, my CPAP setting is set at 9cm, but the negative pressure measured in my lungs without CPAP hovered around -28cm. You’d have to devise a study which could figure out which pressure was the problematic one— the high negative pressure before, or the low positive pressure after. Not sure if saxophone players would necessarily be a good study group either. They may have a great deal of negative pressure, rather than positive.

Although, barotrauma in device therapy can likely be found *most* during exhalation phases of respiration, when there is the most opposition of forces. Maybe a CPAP that could hit an A sharp?

Quite frankly, designing a good study is hard, and takes a great deal of expertise and background knowledge in the area– as I know, having just completed some research of my own, and watched it be picked apart by collegues. T Sconyers

It is easy for device manufacturers and even clinicians to poo poo barotrauma in device therapy, since it IS a slow process, and since there is no better treatment for sleep apnea available today (though the corporation does run the tenor of treatment). We hope it is such a slow process as to be inconsequential within a normal lifespan. But, a lifetime has not passed since the advent of the first CPAP (someone born then is now an older teenager). Cigarette packages must contain caveats about cancer, but medical ventilators do not have to mention barotrauma. Whodathunk Doug

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In article <1998052201452400.VAA28…@ladder03.news.aol.com

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        polkano…@aol.com (PolkaNoble) wrote:

Saxophonists do get a lot of negative pressure, especially when they play out of tune.   We have a lot of other jokes about tubas, piccolos, and alto horns (among others) but positive pressure is used to blow ALL wind instruments except the harmonica which does use negative pressure for some of its notes. Not sure if saxophone players would necessarily be a good<BR study group either. They may have a great deal of negative<BR pressure, snip

Positive for the wind instrument, negative for the player, yes? My main point is that when you play an instrument, you are exhaling forcefully. When you are using CPAP, you are inhaling forcefully. May not be the same thing. Oh course, if you were to hook up a CPAP to a piccolo, then you may have an adequate study T Sconyers

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Since these ideas are thrown around rather liberally . . . As I perceive it, "positive pressure" is any pressure exerted that is higher than atmospheric pressure.  "Negative pressure" is any pressure exerted that is lower than atmospheric pressure. If you blow through a straw, then this is positive pressure, and blowing a "dent" in the top of your coke shows that there is higher pressure than atmospheric pressure.  Your lungs are strong enough to overcome outside pressure, and can push air out the lungs into the outside air, which is positive pressure. Negative pressure is sucking through a straw.  Here, the expanding mouth or lungs make it so that atmospheric pressure pushes air into the mouth.  The mouth or lungs here generate negative pressure until the mouth or lungs are filled with outside air. Air will always go from the positive side to the negative side. Positive pressure will blow leaves off of a sidewalk; negative pressure will suck pennies into a vacuum cleaner. Technically, pressure is based upon number of air molecules per volume.  If the volume is increased (inhalation) then air density goes down, gets thinner, and this is negative pressure, allowing external air to fill the lungs.  If there is upper airway obstruction, then the lungs can still expand (try to expand), increasing the volume, creating a negative pressure, even though outside positive pressure will not be permitted to enter the lungs (until that almighty awakening to lighter sleep!). Therefore, inhalation, or any attempts at inhalation, generate negative pressure within the lungs. Exhalation, or any attempts at exhalation, generate positive pressure within the lungs. **************************************************

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Doug, Your explaination of positive and negative pressure is exactly the same as I assumed in my posts, wordplay on psycological positive and negative pressure is a musician’s little joke.  Anyone playing out of tune would be subject to "negative pressure" from his peers. Maybe I didn’t read your post closely enough, or missed a post.  Clarify  a question if you will.  It seems to me that, given the structure of the laungs, the negative pressure exerted when an apneic attempts to breathe in would do far more damage than the same amount of positive pressure from a CPAP.  I can easily believe negative pressures of 25 to 35 cm H2O are generated by such an attempt. As you have pointed out, the treatment may have a downside, but it is far better than the disease. PolkaNoble (Max Tunnell)

Response:

In article <1998052514222500.KAA06…@ladder03.news.aol.com

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  polkano…@aol.com (PolkaNoble) wrote:

Doug, Your explaination of positive and negative pressure is exactly the same as I assumed in my posts, wordplay on psycological positive and negative pressure is a musician’s little joke.  Anyone playing out of tune would be subject to "negative pressure" from his peers.

In your posts, that pun did give me pause to grin.

Maybe I didn’t read your post closely enough, or missed a post.  Clarify  a question if you will.  It seems to me that, given the structure of the laungs, the negative pressure exerted when an apneic attempts to breathe in would do far more damage than the same amount of positive pressure from a CPAP.  I can easily believe negative pressures of 25 to 35 cm H2O are generated by such an attempt. As you have pointed out, the treatment may have a downside, but it is far better than the disease.

Inhalation does indeed cause negative pressure within the lungs, and this pressure remains negative until the inhalation is complete. Exhalation, on the other hand, involves a natural recoil of lung tissues, and generates a positive intrapulmonary pressure.  Exhalation does not use any muscles, unless ventilation is challenged.  Recoil of the lung occurs naturally from interstitial elastin fibers as well as the attraction of alveolar surfactant molecules to each other (surface tension of the alveolar spheres).  Within the thorax, a lung will collapse in exhalation until the pleural suction ceases the implosion, which leaves an alveolar pressure equal to that of the atmosphere.  Outside of the thorax, a lung will collapse until its air content is completely emptied.  Therefore, it is natural for a lung to collapse. Negative pressures found in inhalation keep the alveoli from "fully" inflating until inhalation is complete.  Even at peak inspiration found in resting-respiration the alveolar compliment is never fully inflated. Therefore, the negative pressure of inhalation against obstruction may actually prevent the alveoli from distending, which becomes more prominent upon *exhalation*. The unrelieved negative pressure of obstructed inhalation may make an alveolus more prone, actually, to "collapse", which is in fact its natural tendency.  An alveolus naturally wishes to collapse in microscopic convolutions owing to attractive forces of its surfactant (WOW!).  Intrapulmonary negative pressure would tend to suck an alveolus in rather than distend it out. Therefore, since of issue is *distension* of an alveolus, the only thing that can cause distension is *exhalation*, and, in particular, vigorous exhalation, to where there is now inordinate *positive* pressure relative to pleural pressure.  Mechanical inflation of a torpid lung is also positive pressure. Personally, I believe you are right that excessive negative pressures found in obstructive breathing can create pulmonary trauma itself, though this type of trauma I could not speculate upon.  It could be reverse-distensive trauma, although reverse distension might most resemble alveolar collapse, which is a natural tendency.  It could be capillary compression and ensuing changes in circulatory rates, etc.  Inspiring against obstruction likely facilitates ongoing implosion of the upper airway.  I can only believe that much COPD found in apnea stems from such alveolar distortions as inhalations against obstruction. Using CPAP has got to be better than not using it — if for nothing else than quality of life.  If CPAP were not so lucrative, tracheostomy would be challenged and perfected.  Any longterm consequences of CPAP await to be seen, which we hope are negligible or non-existent over a normal lifespan. Doug —–== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==—– http://www.dejanews.com/   Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading

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In article <6kcau7$eu…@nnrp1.dejanews.com

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        dr…@inovion.com wrote: <description of pressure in lungs deleted

Doug, can you cite references for this? T Sconyers

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<description of pressure in lungs deleted Doug, can you cite references for this?

Tracy, the first paragraph comes from information in a physician- reference series of books known as the CIBA Collection, volume Respiratory System. Information regarding barotrauma and alveolar distension (volutrauma) comes from studies I have already posted to the group. The remainder was opinion, which I would claim is in-part extrapolation from these sources. Doug

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I’ve seen remarks here about CPAP-related barotrauma, and I’ve heard elsewhere that some long-term saxophone players report pulmonary trouble in later life. I’ve no idea about the relative pressures involved, but perhaps someone here could cast a bit of light? Maybe by studying old saxophonists we could make a guess about the long-term effects of CPAP without doing the experiment the slow way. — Ned nospam = elden

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Since I am in my mid fifties, I have no personal experience on the subject, but I have been involved in community music for over 20 years.  There is antectdotal evidence that, to the contrary, wind instrument playing my be beneficial to the lungs. I have a number of friends in their seventies and eighties who are active players.  They have their share of health problems, but seldom, if ever, are they related to the lungs and heart problems seem to fewer than in the general population. This probably means nothing.  It is encouraging to me.  One of these is a very powerful professional trumpet player about my age with OSA and treated with CPAP.  I play baritone horn and tuba.  It seems that this training have strengthened our diaphram and intercostal muscles to make CPAP at relatively high pressure easier for us. In any case one old tuba-playing friend of mine who died about four years ago at age 80+ had a number of health problems but his doctor always thought the condition of his lungs was remarkably good.   I have no real proof, but I believe a study would reveal more benefits than problems from wind-instrument playing. PolkaNoble (Max Tunnell) "If Music be the food of love, play on"– The beginning of "Twelfth Night" by William Shakespere

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In article <1998052118275100.OAA14…@ladder01.news.aol.com

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  polkano…@aol.com (PolkaNoble) wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Since I am in my mid fifties, I have no personal experience on the subject, but I have been involved in community music for over 20 years.  There is antectdotal evidence that, to the contrary, wind instrument playing my be beneficial to the lungs. I have a number of friends in their seventies and eighties who are active players.  They have their share of health problems, but seldom, if ever, are they related to the lungs and heart problems seem to fewer than in the general population. This probably means nothing.  It is encouraging to me.  One of these is a very powerful professional trumpet player about my age with OSA and treated with CPAP.  I play baritone horn and tuba.  It seems that this training have strengthened our diaphram and intercostal muscles to make CPAP at relatively high pressure easier for us. In any case one old tuba-playing friend of mine who died about four years ago at age 80+ had a number of health problems but his doctor always thought the condition of his lungs was remarkably good. I have no real proof, but I believe a study would reveal more benefits than problems from wind-instrument playing.

Little is really known about barotrauma (or Barry Manilow).  The comprehensive study to-date comes from the journal *Intensive Care Radiology*, in an article titled simply "Barotrauma" (1996, Yale). I’m not sure what they meant, but the study said: "Using intermittent positive pressure breeathing (IPPB) in dogs, Ovenfors found that grossly visible PIE [pulmonary interstitial emphysema] occurred regularly with PIP [peak inspiratory pressure] between 30 and 35 cm H2O.  At 25 cm H2O of peak pressure, PIE was not observed grossly, but it was present microscopically if the IPPB was continued for 12 hours or more . . . . The inspiratory pressures required to produce PIE in humans are not exactly known, but it probably occurs at approximately the same levels as in experimental animals.  Because the normal lung is inflated to total capacity with transpulmonary pressures of 35 cm H2O, it is conceivable that damaged alveoli could rupture even before such pressures are reached. . . . It is an emerging concept supported by recent studies that alveolar overdistention, so called "volutrauma," may play a more significant role than peak inspiratory pressure in the development of barotrauma." So that, barotrauma may be complex.  In placing a balloon into a beer bottle, you can exert very high pressures and not damage the balloon; however, take it out of the bottle, and lesser pressures will distend and pop the balloon.  So this new term "volutrauma" seems to be the appropriate paradigm with regards to barotrauma. Barotrauma from wind instruments may depend upon the nature of the thoracic cage and its ability to support pulmonary structures and prevent alveolar distension.  It may depend upon the way the musician breathes — whether diaphramatically, or by utilizing the higher lungs and intercostal musculature of respiration.  It might depend upon the wind instrument itself, or the number of gigs or jam sessions amassed.  It may depend upon preexisting pulmonary disease as well. Furthermore, the idea of barotrauma has never been clear.  Critical care settings have always regarded it only as pleural rupture or a literal tear of the sack about the lungs.  New medicine suggests subtle damage to the alveolar wall constitutes barotrauma and that it is far more discrete.  Therefore, a wind musician could conceivably have subtle barotrauma, say, with dyspnea, but not be regarded as having barotrauma by traditional markers of airleak phenomena in the lungs. There is at least one medical study documenting barotrauma in a partygoer who blew up several dozen balloons. With regards to wind instruments, much like they did in the balloon study, they determined how many cm H20 pressure it would take to blow up one balloon (or to blow a high note out of a horn?!) and then make comparisons with pressures used in positive pressure ventilation. We will get nowhere with barotrauma until mainstream medicine regards it as a subtle process only discernable microscopically, and with the ability to differentiate it from underlying pulmonary disease. Doug —–== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==—– http://www.dejanews.com/   Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading

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In article <wluJzBA+qAZ1E…@elden.demon.co.uk

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        Ned Clack <N…@nospam.demon.co.uk

wrote: I’ve seen remarks here about CPAP-related barotrauma, and I’ve heard elsewhere that some long-term saxophone players report pulmonary trouble in later life. I’ve no idea about the relative pressures involved, but perhaps someone here could cast a bit of light? Maybe by studying old saxophonists we could make a guess about the long-term effects of CPAP without doing the experiment the slow way.

Perhaps, but you have to be able to establish: 1. That damage to the lungs is occurring 2. That said damage is by CPAP, and not by the apnea or    other possible causes. 3. That if CPAP damage does occur, it is does substantially    more damage than either other forms of (possibly ineffective)    treatments, or by leaving the apnea untreated. For example, my CPAP setting is set at 9cm, but the negative pressure measured in my lungs without CPAP hovered around -28cm. You’d have to devise a study which could figure out which pressure was the problematic one— the high negative pressure before, or the low positive pressure after. Not sure if saxophone players would necessarily be a good study group either. They may have a great deal of negative pressure, rather than positive. Quite frankly, designing a good study is hard, and takes a great deal of expertise and background knowledge in the area– as I know, having just completed some research of my own, and watched it be picked apart by collegues. T Sconyers – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

– Ned nospam = elden

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Saxophonists do get a lot of negative pressure, especially when they play out of tune.   We have a lot of other jokes about tubas, piccolos, and alto horns (among others) but positive pressure is used to blow ALL wind instruments except the harmonica which does use negative pressure for some of its notes. We do sometimes refer to a bad player in terms that equate to "negative pressure", but that is strictly figuratively speaking (grin). Still, I will pass on the negative pressure comment to some Sax Men I know with a since of humor (It helps to have one if you play the sax–See what I mean?) I’ll see if there is some info on exactly how much pressure is generated for instruments in various ranges.  I believe studies have been done on that.   I suspect that for most instruments ( high trumpet excepted) the pressure will be considerably below the 28cm H2O you referred to, probably below 15, and it would be positive. PolkaNoble (Max Tunnell) "The Heckelphone is an ill wind that nobody blows good"– Attributed to Auturo Toscannini but I doubt he said that exactly. T Sconyers wrote snip

Not sure if saxophone players would necessarily be a good<BR study group either. They may have a great deal of negative<BR pressure,

snip

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I am on CPAP at 18cm. When I play sax or clarinet, it feels like much less resistance than the CPAP. Although the 18cm does feel a lot like a clarinet with a way-too-hard reed. regards, eric pearson er…@nospammindspring.com On 22 May 1998 01:45:24 GMT, polkano…@aol.com (PolkaNoble) wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Saxophonists do get a lot of negative pressure, especially when they play out of tune.   We have a lot of other jokes about tubas, piccolos, and alto horns (among others) but positive pressure is used to blow ALL wind instruments except the harmonica which does use negative pressure for some of its notes. We do sometimes refer to a bad player in terms that equate to "negative pressure", but that is strictly figuratively speaking (grin). Still, I will pass on the negative pressure comment to some Sax Men I know with a since of humor (It helps to have one if you play the sax–See what I mean?) I’ll see if there is some info on exactly how much pressure is generated for instruments in various ranges.  I believe studies have been done on that.   I suspect that for most instruments ( high trumpet excepted) the pressure will be considerably below the 28cm H2O you referred to, probably below 15, and it would be positive. PolkaNoble (Max Tunnell) "The Heckelphone is an ill wind that nobody blows good"– Attributed to Auturo Toscannini but I doubt he said that exactly. T Sconyers wrote snip Not sure if saxophone players would necessarily be a good<BR study group either. They may have a great deal of negative<BR pressure, snip

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