Question:

Thanks… Right now, I am doing quite well handling my depression / not having depression.  I have surounded myself with as many supportive people as possible, and I am doing everything I can to deal with issues cognitivly… However, If I dont get this pain a little better under controal, I am afarid that I might slip into a state of depression, which I of course would perfer not to, as I have worked so hard to get out of it…. jamie

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As Mel has mentioned, Jamie, and Gabe indicates here, the advice we give you and others is from our own experiences and different meds affect people in different ways. In my experience, Buspar was a no-winner for anxiety!  I have been on Doxepin (a TCA) for years, and it works better than anything else I have taken for anxiety.  In fact, that was what it was first prescribed for: anxiety and an aid for sleep.  Some of the older TCAs are better than some of the newer meds, in my own opinion, and certainly cheaper.  For me, an exception would be Elavil, which my Rheumy had me on just to see how I would do on that vs. Doxepin.  After a couple months, I was back to Doxepin, so that is my med of choice. I must add that I have Clinical Depression, so your experience may be different, but anxiety goes hand in hand with depression, of which I’m well aware!  So, the 2 antidepressants that I take are Paxil during the day and Doxepin in late afternoon/evening/bedtime.  Both work well for me.  Nanny Hey, I’m a bit confused about what you are on but I’ve had a lot of experience with TCAs. First of all, ditch Elavil (amitryptilene). It is the king of side effects, a dinosaur. Nortryp really is a toss-up. It has helped a lot of people and it is marked for pain relief. It hits NE with a negligible effect on serotonin. It’s pretty good for anxiety. My experience is — and I’ve seen this echoed in the anxiety group — if you are having anxiety don’t be afraid of the TCAs. Nortryp is prob the best and most balanced. As for going off Effexor it’s tough to tell. I can tell you that wellbutrin in prob 90 percent of people worsens anxiety. Effexor withdrawl is tough and long-lasting for many. So it could be the source of the anxiety if you hadn’t really had it before. I don’t know jack about Cymbalta except that it hits NE faster and at lower doses than Effexor. Supposedly. This is all anecdotal- based on some reseach- but mainly other people’s and my experiences. Finally, sometimes you really have to choose btwn depression and anxiety. Like WB for example, won’t do shit for anxiety, but may lift you into a less depressed, more anxious state. So you have to think?? There is prob no perfect solution, which is worse. I find anxiety much easier to live with honestly. There’s excersise of course, or just getting used to it. As for sexual side effects, the serotonin drugs hit that harder than the NE dopamine drugs. And buspar is a total mystery for me. Gabe

Response:

Years ago I was prescribed Zoloft for Anxiety and light OCD symptoms. Buspar was later added on top of the Zoloft for anxiety…but I can’t say it did anything.  To me, it was like taking vitamin C.  However, being many years ago, I don’t remember how large the dose was.

Response:

Hi, Matt, I was on Buspar many years ago for a short period of time for anxiety also. I also felt it didn’t do much for my anxiety level.  Then I was put on Xanax for many years and now onto Klonopin.  I prefer the Klonopin, though it isn’t as fast acting as Xanax, since it stays in the body longer.  I take 1 mg twice daily and it does help a lot. smiles, Elise

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Years ago I was prescribed Zoloft for Anxiety and light OCD symptoms. Buspar was later added on top of the Zoloft for anxiety…but I can’t say it did anything.  To me, it was like taking vitamin C.  However, being many years ago, I don’t remember how large the dose was.

Response:

Research has shown in a couple of studies that high doses of buspar can actually recruit anxiety, whereas the lower doses did not.  I find that the people who are on less than (or equal to) 30 mgs a day seem happiest with it.

I certinally can use it at lower doses.  Then if I find it doesnt do anything then I can drop it…  I think that makes sence, because getting up to 30mg a day should not take too long to get used to… Thanks Jamie

Response:

Actually for some people, the stimulant meds DO have anxiolytic effect, so it’s really not fair to say that they "don’t do shit" for anxiety.  That is true for "most people", but for some, stimulants are calming, which is almost diagnostic for ADD. G

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – HI, I am off of Effexor now, with my doctors permission.  Only thing I have really noticed in that my Anxeity is up a little bit, and I cant decide if this is: a. a withdrawl symptom from effexor b. effexor was doing a little more to help with my anxeity than I thought…. but anyway, I am feeling pretty decent, and really not too depressed,,, I guess a little stressed, but not to depressed at all…  The initial plan I made with my doctor was to start wellbutrin 150XL and buspar now.  Since I made that plan, I have seen the rheumy, who wants me to try, nortriptline or Amitriptyline, and after discussing this with several of you, it sounds like this is worth a try… Here is where I am stuck…  I don’t want to take more meds than I have to… I know I can always dc them later, but,,, I am wondering if I should start WB and buspar if I know I am going to start a TCA? The question I have that I dont really know the answer to at all is this, Can WB and buspar help reduce the side effects of a TCA the way they can help reduce the side effects of a SSRI?  Would it be reasonalbe to try WB, buspar and a TCA all together and see what happends, and reduce if necessary? I really really really want to avoid the majority of sexual side effects if I can, as I am quite sure I will be depressed from that if I have major sexular side effects…  I know there will be a transition period where I have to take time to get used to the tca, but I cant live on a ongoing basis (espically long term, as using the tca for fibro could be a life long type of thing) with major sexual disfunction…… One last question is this, Is it worth thinking about trying cymbalta first before the TCA, or not since I have already tried effexor?  I know larry commented on this and said that the TCA’s can be quite different from effexor, but does the same hold true for cymbalta, I am guessing it does since they are in the same class (effexor and cymbalta = ssnri)  but I have heard thatt cymbalta is a lot better with pain and such from some people…..  Any thoughs on this?  Sorry to make this so confusing…. Thanks again for your time, and your comments on this…. Jamie

Response:

Gabe’s statement about Cymbalta is correct, however the mechanism by which it has impact on pains (neuropathic) is different than the TCA group, and it’s a little harder to tolerate initially than Effexor.  I would like to hear what the definition of the pains / symptoms are, prior to commenting on this much more.

My pain has been wide spread, in most all of my muscles, but much more severe is some than others.  My legs, often ache, even with rest, then they can progress to sharp pain with exersize.  My hands, arms sholders are in pain with a minumal amount of movement.  Also have neck and back pain, which doesnt usally stay as bad because the chiro treats that… Well it would be WB, buspar, and one of the TCA’s…  Plus tricor, and a painkiller like ultram (but ultram is not working well now), and hopefull with the pain more undercontroal, I will be less fatigured and we can reduce / drop dexidrine.  There is also inderal for migranes, that has helped sooo much that I dont really see droping that… jamie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I do not agree that one has to choose betw. being depressed or being anxious, nor does the medical community at large. From a strictly statistical standpoint, anxiety is indeed "easier to live with", given the mortality rates of depression, however, again, see above. Buspar has little, if any effect on sexual function, but it also takes a fair amount of time for it to start working – it’s a "partial serotonin agonist", and takes usually 4 to 6 weeks to really start working well – not going to cover that wellbutrin awfully well.  Honestly, I’m not so sure I really like this plan Jamie.  What is the total med list going to be? Gary Hey, I’m a bit confused about what you are on but I’ve had a lot of experience with TCAs. First of all, ditch Elavil (amitryptilene). It is the king of side effects, a dinosaur. Nortryp really is a toss-up. It has helped a lot of people and it is marked for pain relief. It hits NE with a negligible effect on serotonin. It’s pretty good for anxiety. My experience is — and I’ve seen this echoed in the anxiety group — if you are having anxiety don’t be afraid of the TCAs. Nortryp is prob the best and most balanced. As for going off Effexor it’s tough to tell. I can tell you that wellbutrin in prob 90 percent of people worsens anxiety. Effexor withdrawl is tough and long-lasting for many. So it could be the source of the anxiety if you hadn’t really had it before. I don’t know jack about Cymbalta except that it hits NE faster and at lower doses than Effexor. Supposedly. This is all anecdotal- based on some reseach- but mainly other people’s and my experiences. Finally, sometimes you really have to choose btwn depression and anxiety. Like WB for example, won’t do shit for anxiety, but may lift you into a less depressed, more anxious state. So you have to think?? There is prob no perfect solution, which is worse. I find anxiety much easier to live with honestly. There’s excersise of course, or just getting used to it. As for sexual side effects, the serotonin drugs hit that harder than the NE dopamine drugs. And buspar is a total mystery for me. Gabe

Response:

Atleast anxeity responds very quickly to benzos…. I have not heard of WB causing any weight gain… Wonder if the buspar is causing that?? Jamie

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Crossposted reply: Gabe is correct about wellbutrin and anxiety for sure.  I personally would not want to start that if I was coming off Effexor, but you and your MD Elavil and Pamelor both do the same thing in terms of pain relief, so it’s really a matter of side effect toleration, and yes, Elavil causes more. Usually the starting dose is around 10 mgs of Elavil for sodium channel blockade/NMDA antagonism for chronic pain mgmt. Gabe’s statement about Cymbalta is correct, however the mechanism by which it has impact on pains (neuropathic) is different than the TCA group, and it’s a little harder to tolerate initially than Effexor.  I would like to hear what the definition of the pains / symptoms are, prior to commenting on this much more. I do not agree that one has to choose betw. being depressed or being anxious, nor does the medical community at large. From a strictly statistical standpoint, anxiety is indeed "easier to live with", given the mortality rates of depression, however, again, see above. Buspar has little, if any effect on sexual function, but it also takes a fair amount of time for it to start working – it’s a "partial serotonin agonist", and takes usually 4 to 6 weeks to really start working well – not going to cover that wellbutrin awfully well.  Honestly, I’m not so sure I really like this plan Jamie.  What is the total med list going to be? Gary I’ll add that from what happened to me and others is that Wellbutrin and Buspar. WILL MAKE YOU FAT!  Now that is depressing! And I agree with Gary that Anxiety is easier to control than depression. (IMHO) SnL Hey, I’m a bit confused about what you are on but I’ve had a lot of experience with TCAs. First of all, ditch Elavil (amitryptilene). It is the king of side effects, a dinosaur. Nortryp really is a toss-up. It has helped a lot of people and it is marked for pain relief. It hits NE with a negligible effect on serotonin. It’s pretty good for anxiety. My experience is — and I’ve seen this echoed in the anxiety group — if you are having anxiety don’t be afraid of the TCAs. Nortryp is prob the best and most balanced. As for going off Effexor it’s tough to tell. I can tell you that wellbutrin in prob 90 percent of people worsens anxiety. Effexor withdrawl is tough and long-lasting for many. So it could be the source of the anxiety if you hadn’t really had it before. I don’t know jack about Cymbalta except that it hits NE faster and at lower doses than Effexor. Supposedly. This is all anecdotal- based on some reseach- but mainly other people’s and my experiences. Finally, sometimes you really have to choose btwn depression and anxiety. Like WB for example, won’t do shit for anxiety, but may lift you into a less depressed, more anxious state. So you have to think?? There is prob no perfect solution, which is worse. I find anxiety much easier to live with honestly. There’s excersise of course, or just getting used to it. As for sexual side effects, the serotonin drugs hit that harder than the NE dopamine drugs. And buspar is a total mystery for me. Gabe

Response:

As Mel has mentioned, Jamie, and Gabe indicates here, the advice we give you and others is from our own experiences and different meds affect people in different ways. In my experience, Buspar was a no-winner for anxiety!  I have been on Doxepin (a TCA) for years, and it works better than anything else I have taken for anxiety.  In fact, that was what it was first prescribed for: anxiety and an aid for sleep.  Some of the older TCAs are better than some of the newer meds, in my own opinion, and certainly cheaper.  For me, an exception would be Elavil, which my Rheumy had me on just to see how I would do on that vs. Doxepin.  After a couple months, I was back to Doxepin, so that is my med of choice. I must add that I have Clinical Depression, so your experience may be different, but anxiety goes hand in hand with depression, of which I’m well aware!  So, the 2 antidepressants that I take are Paxil during the day and Doxepin in late afternoon/evening/bedtime.  Both work well for me.  Nanny

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey, I’m a bit confused about what you are on but I’ve had a lot of experience with TCAs. First of all, ditch Elavil (amitryptilene). It is the king of side effects, a dinosaur. Nortryp really is a toss-up. It has helped a lot of people and it is marked for pain relief. It hits NE with a negligible effect on serotonin. It’s pretty good for anxiety. My experience is — and I’ve seen this echoed in the anxiety group — if you are having anxiety don’t be afraid of the TCAs. Nortryp is prob the best and most balanced. As for going off Effexor it’s tough to tell. I can tell you that wellbutrin in prob 90 percent of people worsens anxiety. Effexor withdrawl is tough and long-lasting for many. So it could be the source of the anxiety if you hadn’t really had it before. I don’t know jack about Cymbalta except that it hits NE faster and at lower doses than Effexor. Supposedly. This is all anecdotal- based on some reseach- but mainly other people’s and my experiences. Finally, sometimes you really have to choose btwn depression and anxiety. Like WB for example, won’t do shit for anxiety, but may lift you into a less depressed, more anxious state. So you have to think?? There is prob no perfect solution, which is worse. I find anxiety much easier to live with honestly. There’s excersise of course, or just getting used to it. As for sexual side effects, the serotonin drugs hit that harder than the NE dopamine drugs. And buspar is a total mystery for me. Gabe

Response:

No, buspar is weight neutral.  As a partial agonist, it functions as a sort of "dimmer switch" (like you might find in a dining room for the light fixture).  If you don’t have enough serotonin, it will boost it up some, and if you have too much it will dampen the serotonin down.  It has limitations on how high or low it can change the levels though, and is really not a particularly great medicine (for a lot of people – maybe not you though…) for anxiety control.  Psychiatrists tell me that it yields particularly poor results in patients who have previously taken benzodiazepines for anxiety. The most common side-effects that people tell me they get from taking it – a disconcerting feeling of dizziness, some nausea, inability to tolerate loud or sharp sounds (all these usually go away in about a month or so) and almost everyone tells me that this drug causes them vivid dreams, often frightening and very colorful and/or violent.  I have never had a single person tell me that this drug caused them to gain weight – there may be people who have though, I just haven’t met them.  Prescribing literature describes weight gain as "infrequent", which means it happens more often than if it was cited as "rare".  The dizziness is BY FAR the thing that is most bitterly complained about, and almost virtually universal. Research has shown in a couple of studies that high doses of buspar can actually recruit anxiety, whereas the lower doses did not.  I find that the people who are on less than (or equal to) 30 mgs a day seem happiest with it. Gary

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Atleast anxeity responds very quickly to benzos…. I have not heard of WB causing any weight gain… Wonder if the buspar is causing that?? Jamie Crossposted reply: Gabe is correct about wellbutrin and anxiety for sure.  I personally would not want to start that if I was coming off Effexor, but you and your MD Elavil and Pamelor both do the same thing in terms of pain relief, so it’s really a matter of side effect toleration, and yes, Elavil causes more. Usually the starting dose is around 10 mgs of Elavil for sodium channel blockade/NMDA antagonism for chronic pain mgmt. Gabe’s statement about Cymbalta is correct, however the mechanism by which it has impact on pains (neuropathic) is different than the TCA group, and it’s a little harder to tolerate initially than Effexor.  I would like to hear what the definition of the pains / symptoms are, prior to commenting on this much more. I do not agree that one has to choose betw. being depressed or being anxious, nor does the medical community at large. From a strictly statistical standpoint, anxiety is indeed "easier to live with", given the mortality rates of depression, however, again, see above. Buspar has little, if any effect on sexual function, but it also takes a fair amount of time for it to start working – it’s a "partial serotonin agonist", and takes usually 4 to 6 weeks to really start working well – not going to cover that wellbutrin awfully well.  Honestly, I’m not so sure I really like this plan Jamie.  What is the total med list going to be? Gary I’ll add that from what happened to me and others is that Wellbutrin and Buspar. WILL MAKE YOU FAT!  Now that is depressing! And I agree with Gary that Anxiety is easier to control than depression. (IMHO) SnL Hey, I’m a bit confused about what you are on but I’ve had a lot of experience with TCAs. First of all, ditch Elavil (amitryptilene). It is the king of side effects, a dinosaur. Nortryp really is a toss-up. It has helped a lot of people and it is marked for pain relief. It hits NE with a negligible effect on serotonin. It’s pretty good for anxiety. My experience is — and I’ve seen this echoed in the anxiety group — if you are having anxiety don’t be afraid of the TCAs. Nortryp is prob the best and most balanced. As for going off Effexor it’s tough to tell. I can tell you that wellbutrin in prob 90 percent of people worsens anxiety. Effexor withdrawl is tough and long-lasting for many. So it could be the source of the anxiety if you hadn’t really had it before. I don’t know jack about Cymbalta except that it hits NE faster and at lower doses than Effexor. Supposedly. This is all anecdotal- based on some reseach- but mainly other people’s and my experiences. Finally, sometimes you really have to choose btwn depression and anxiety. Like WB for example, won’t do shit for anxiety, but may lift you into a less depressed, more anxious state. So you have to think?? There is prob no perfect solution, which is worse. I find anxiety much easier to live with honestly. There’s excersise of course, or just getting used to it. As for sexual side effects, the serotonin drugs hit that harder than the NE dopamine drugs. And buspar is a total mystery for me. Gabe

Response:

I am not sure they are quite calming, but they normally dont make my anxeity freak out like I would have though they would.  The pschylogists have always diagnosised me with ADD and GAD, so maybe I am getting a patial benefit from the stimulant in terms of anxeity, or atleast that might explain why it doesnt make it much worse… jamie

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Actually for some people, the stimulant meds DO have anxiolytic effect, so it’s really not fair to say that they "don’t do shit" for anxiety.  That is true for "most people", but for some, stimulants are calming, which is almost diagnostic for ADD. G HI, I am off of Effexor now, with my doctors permission.  Only thing I have really noticed in that my Anxeity is up a little bit, and I cant decide if this is: a. a withdrawl symptom from effexor b. effexor was doing a little more to help with my anxeity than I thought…. but anyway, I am feeling pretty decent, and really not too depressed,,, I guess a little stressed, but not to depressed at all…  The initial plan I made with my doctor was to start wellbutrin 150XL and buspar now.  Since I made that plan, I have seen the rheumy, who wants me to try, nortriptline or Amitriptyline, and after discussing this with several of you, it sounds like this is worth a try… Here is where I am stuck…  I don’t want to take more meds than I have to… I know I can always dc them later, but,,, I am wondering if I should start WB and buspar if I know I am going to start a TCA? The question I have that I dont really know the answer to at all is this, Can WB and buspar help reduce the side effects of a TCA the way they can help reduce the side effects of a SSRI?  Would it be reasonalbe to try WB, buspar and a TCA all together and see what happends, and reduce if necessary? I really really really want to avoid the majority of sexual side effects if I can, as I am quite sure I will be depressed from that if I have major sexular side effects…  I know there will be a transition period where I have to take time to get used to the tca, but I cant live on a ongoing basis (espically long term, as using the tca for fibro could be a life long type of thing) with major sexual disfunction…… One last question is this, Is it worth thinking about trying cymbalta first before the TCA, or not since I have already tried effexor?  I know larry commented on this and said that the TCA’s can be quite different from effexor, but does the same hold true for cymbalta, I am guessing it does since they are in the same class (effexor and cymbalta = ssnri)  but I have heard thatt cymbalta is a lot better with pain and such from some people…..  Any thoughs on this?  Sorry to make this so confusing…. Thanks again for your time, and your comments on this…. Jamie

Response:

HI, I am off of Effexor now, with my doctors permission.  Only thing I have really noticed in that my Anxeity is up a little bit, and I cant decide if this is: a. a withdrawl symptom from effexor b. effexor was doing a little more to help with my anxeity than I thought…. but anyway, I am feeling pretty decent, and really not too depressed,,, I guess a little stressed, but not to depressed at all…  The initial plan I made with my doctor was to start wellbutrin 150XL and buspar now.  Since I made that plan, I have seen the rheumy, who wants me to try, nortriptline or Amitriptyline, and after discussing this with several of you, it sounds like this is worth a try… Here is where I am stuck…  I don’t want to take more meds than I have to… I know I can always dc them later, but,,, I am wondering if I should start WB and buspar if I know I am going to start a TCA? The question I have that I dont really know the answer to at all is this, Can WB and buspar help reduce the side effects of a TCA the way they can help reduce the side effects of a SSRI?  Would it be reasonalbe to try WB, buspar and a TCA all together and see what happends, and reduce if necessary? I really really really want to avoid the majority of sexual side effects if I can, as I am quite sure I will be depressed from that if I have major sexular side effects…  I know there will be a transition period where I have to take time to get used to the tca, but I cant live on a ongoing basis (espically long term, as using the tca for fibro could be a life long type of thing) with major sexual disfunction…… One last question is this, Is it worth thinking about trying cymbalta first before the TCA, or not since I have already tried effexor?  I know larry commented on this and said that the TCA’s can be quite different from effexor, but does the same hold true for cymbalta, I am guessing it does since they are in the same class (effexor and cymbalta = ssnri)  but I have heard thatt cymbalta is a lot better with pain and such from some people…..  Any thoughs on this?  Sorry to make this so confusing…. Thanks again for your time, and your comments on this…. Jamie

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – HI, I am off of Effexor now, with my doctors permission.  Only thing I have really noticed in that my Anxeity is up a little bit, and I cant decide if this is: a. a withdrawl symptom from effexor b. effexor was doing a little more to help with my anxeity than I thought…. but anyway, I am feeling pretty decent, and really not too depressed,,, I guess a little stressed, but not to depressed at all…  The initial plan I made with my doctor was to start wellbutrin 150XL and buspar now. Since I made that plan, I have seen the rheumy, who wants me to try, nortriptline or Amitriptyline, and after discussing this with several of you, it sounds like this is worth a try… Here is where I am stuck…  I don’t want to take more meds than I have to… I know I can always dc them later, but,,, I am wondering if I should start WB and buspar if I know I am going to start a TCA? The question I have that I dont really know the answer to at all is this, Can WB and buspar help reduce the side effects of a TCA the way they can help reduce the side effects of a SSRI?

Just a guess: Probably, except that the TCA is likely to have more unpleasant side effects than the SSRI. Would it be reasonalbe to try WB, buspar and a TCA all together and see what happends, and reduce if necessary?

As much sense as it would to take an SSRI with the others and tailer the others. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I really really really want to avoid the majority of sexual side effects if I can, as I am quite sure I will be depressed from that if I have major sexular side effects…  I know there will be a transition period where I have to take time to get used to the tca, but I cant live on a ongoing basis (espically long term, as using the tca for fibro could be a life long type of thing) with major sexual disfunction…… One last question is this, Is it worth thinking about trying cymbalta first before the TCA, or not since I have already tried effexor?  I know larry commented on this and said that the TCA’s can be quite different from effexor, but does the same hold true for cymbalta, I am guessing it does since they are in the same class (effexor and cymbalta = ssnri)  but I have heard thatt cymbalta is a lot better with pain and such from some people…..  Any thoughs on this?  Sorry to make this so confusing…. Thanks again for your time, and your comments on this…. Jamie

– Nom dePlume, Ph.D. Why, yes, in fact, I am a rocket scientist. Guide to Medications for Mental Illness: http://www.geocities.com/nomdeplume1000/ =====

Response:

Hey, I’m a bit confused about what you are on but I’ve had a lot of experience with TCAs. First of all, ditch Elavil (amitryptilene). It is the king of side effects, a dinosaur. Nortryp really is a toss-up. It has helped a lot of people and it is marked for pain relief. It hits NE with a negligible effect on serotonin. It’s pretty good for anxiety. My experience is — and I’ve seen this echoed in the anxiety group — if you are having anxiety don’t be afraid of the TCAs. Nortryp is prob the best and most balanced. As for going off Effexor it’s tough to tell. I can tell you that wellbutrin in prob 90 percent of people worsens anxiety. Effexor withdrawl is tough and long-lasting for many. So it could be the source of the anxiety if you hadn’t really had it before. I don’t know jack about Cymbalta except that it hits NE faster and at lower doses than Effexor. Supposedly. This is all anecdotal- based on some reseach- but mainly other people’s and my experiences. Finally, sometimes you really have to choose btwn depression and anxiety. Like WB for example, won’t do shit for anxiety, but may lift you into a less depressed, more anxious state. So you have to think?? There is prob no perfect solution, which is worse. I find anxiety much easier to live with honestly. There’s excersise of course, or just getting used to it. As for sexual side effects, the serotonin drugs hit that harder than the NE dopamine drugs. And buspar is a total mystery for me. Gabe

Response:

Gabe is correct about wellbutrin and anxiety for sure.  I personally would not want to start that if I was coming off Effexor, but you and your MD must Elavil and Pamelor both do the same thing in terms of pain relief, so it’s really a matter of side effect toleration, and yes, Elavil causes more. Usually the starting dose is around 10 mgs of Elavil for sodium channel blockade/NMDA antagonism for chronic pain mgmt. Gabe’s statement about Cymbalta is correct, however the mechanism by which it has impact on pains (neuropathic) is different than the TCA group, and it’s a little harder to tolerate initially than Effexor.  I would like to hear what the definition of the pains / symptoms are, prior to commenting on this much more. I do not agree that one has to choose betw. being depressed or being anxious, nor does the medical community at large. From a strictly statistical standpoint, anxiety is indeed "easier to live with", given the mortality rates of depression, however, again, see above. Buspar has little, if any effect on sexual function, but it also takes a fair amount of time for it to start working – it’s a "partial serotonin agonist", and takes usually 4 to 6 weeks to really start working well – not going to cover that wellbutrin awfully well.  Honestly, I’m not so sure I really like this plan Jamie.  What is the total med list going to be? Gary

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey, I’m a bit confused about what you are on but I’ve had a lot of experience with TCAs. First of all, ditch Elavil (amitryptilene). It is the king of side effects, a dinosaur. Nortryp really is a toss-up. It has helped a lot of people and it is marked for pain relief. It hits NE with a negligible effect on serotonin. It’s pretty good for anxiety. My experience is — and I’ve seen this echoed in the anxiety group — if you are having anxiety don’t be afraid of the TCAs. Nortryp is prob the best and most balanced. As for going off Effexor it’s tough to tell. I can tell you that wellbutrin in prob 90 percent of people worsens anxiety. Effexor withdrawl is tough and long-lasting for many. So it could be the source of the anxiety if you hadn’t really had it before. I don’t know jack about Cymbalta except that it hits NE faster and at lower doses than Effexor. Supposedly. This is all anecdotal- based on some reseach- but mainly other people’s and my experiences. Finally, sometimes you really have to choose btwn depression and anxiety. Like WB for example, won’t do shit for anxiety, but may lift you into a less depressed, more anxious state. So you have to think?? There is prob no perfect solution, which is worse. I find anxiety much easier to live with honestly. There’s excersise of course, or just getting used to it. As for sexual side effects, the serotonin drugs hit that harder than the NE dopamine drugs. And buspar is a total mystery for me. Gabe

Response:

Crossposted reply:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Gabe is correct about wellbutrin and anxiety for sure.  I personally would not want to start that if I was coming off Effexor, but you and your MD Elavil and Pamelor both do the same thing in terms of pain relief, so it’s really a matter of side effect toleration, and yes, Elavil causes more. Usually the starting dose is around 10 mgs of Elavil for sodium channel blockade/NMDA antagonism for chronic pain mgmt. Gabe’s statement about Cymbalta is correct, however the mechanism by which it has impact on pains (neuropathic) is different than the TCA group, and it’s a little harder to tolerate initially than Effexor.  I would like to hear what the definition of the pains / symptoms are, prior to commenting on this much more. I do not agree that one has to choose betw. being depressed or being anxious, nor does the medical community at large. From a strictly statistical standpoint, anxiety is indeed "easier to live with", given the mortality rates of depression, however, again, see above. Buspar has little, if any effect on sexual function, but it also takes a fair amount of time for it to start working – it’s a "partial serotonin agonist", and takes usually 4 to 6 weeks to really start working well – not going to cover that wellbutrin awfully well.  Honestly, I’m not so sure I really like this plan Jamie.  What is the total med list going to be? Gary

I’ll add that from what happened to me and others is that Wellbutrin and Buspar. WILL MAKE YOU FAT!  Now that is depressing! And I agree with Gary that Anxiety is easier to control than depression. (IMHO) SnL – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey, I’m a bit confused about what you are on but I’ve had a lot of experience with TCAs. First of all, ditch Elavil (amitryptilene). It is the king of side effects, a dinosaur. Nortryp really is a toss-up. It has helped a lot of people and it is marked for pain relief. It hits NE with a negligible effect on serotonin. It’s pretty good for anxiety. My experience is — and I’ve seen this echoed in the anxiety group — if you are having anxiety don’t be afraid of the TCAs. Nortryp is prob the best and most balanced. As for going off Effexor it’s tough to tell. I can tell you that wellbutrin in prob 90 percent of people worsens anxiety. Effexor withdrawl is tough and long-lasting for many. So it could be the source of the anxiety if you hadn’t really had it before. I don’t know jack about Cymbalta except that it hits NE faster and at lower doses than Effexor. Supposedly. This is all anecdotal- based on some reseach- but mainly other people’s and my experiences. Finally, sometimes you really have to choose btwn depression and anxiety. Like WB for example, won’t do shit for anxiety, but may lift you into a less depressed, more anxious state. So you have to think?? There is prob no perfect solution, which is worse. I find anxiety much easier to live with honestly. There’s excersise of course, or just getting used to it. As for sexual side effects, the serotonin drugs hit that harder than the NE dopamine drugs. And buspar is a total mystery for me. Gabe

Response:

Question:

Anorexia is one of the more pronounced side effects of Prozac, and the manufacturer seriously was or is trying to get it indicated for weight control!! It was prescribed to me for depression when my family had major problems, but it just happened to be just what I needed for my migraines. That was like I said, maybe 16-18 years ago. I have no idea whether it’s STILL helping my migraines, but I’ve been to MHNI twice since then, and nobody’s ever questioned or reconsidered the Prozac…   But by now, for all I know, it might be useless for my migraines, but if I stop taking it, my personality gets kinda dark and sad, because I’m naturally serotonin deficient, so maybe yes, it’s working on SOMETHING? Same for the Elavil – I’ve been taking it since 1993. It helps with the serotonin situation, but it really helps me sleep, too, and I need that, because of my severe sleep apnea, and it’s nonaddictive, so it’s better than a sleeping pill. Plus, Elavil is indicated in other painful conditions, one of which I have: Interstitial cystitis. But Elavil is the biggest culprit in the dry eyes that prevent my eye doctor from giving me the contacts I want. But it’s a good drug, and I’m glad I have it. And when I run out of Flexeril, I’ll take half an Elavil in a pinch. They’re very similar. As for weight, I’ve heard that Elavil is supposed to put weight ON, but frankly, I’ve got so many drugs in my personal stew that I couldn’t begin to tell you which ones are driving my weight one way or the other, unless there’s been a big change in my drugs recently, like switching from Depakote to Topamax 6 months ago, and promptly losing 10 pounds. The BuSpar I don’t remember very well, as far as migraines are concerned… MHNI prescribed it during another bad-family period – my dad had died and I was still freaked about it, and I think the BuSpar was more for keeping ME off the ceiling, than to help with my headpain. It’s a great little drug, that doesn’t wrack you up with side effects. I think it kinda has one foot in the antidepressant category, and the other foot in the tranquilizer category. Ginnie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Really, prozac caused weight loss for you?  Seems funny since most of the other antidepressants seem to do just the opposite.  I gained ten pounds on Paxil. Is any of this helping with your migraines? Thanks! Michelle

Response:

I have used Topopmax, Nortriptelyne and Prozac. Topomax worked except for dizzyness, Nortriptylene weight gain and Prozak nothing. Other high powered ones also caused extreme dizzyness amd nuaseau. If you can handle Topomax or Amitriptylene they might help. A good Neurologist is best way to go. Dr. Ken Moore is great out of Chicago area. This is his only specialialty. He is also covered by BCBS. http://www.helpforheadaches.com/ Even if you are from out of state he may be of help. 70% of his patients are from out of state. Jim

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi all, I am looking at possibly going back on an antidepressant.  I’ve been on Paxil in the past and Effexor.  My experiences with Paxil and Effexor were both pretty good, but I did gain weight on the Paxil.  I wonder if people who have been on any of the antidepressants can share their experiences with them, i.e. did it help any of your migraines, chronic daily headaches, and did you experience side effects (and what were they)? The meds that come to my mind are Paxil, Effexor, Zoloft, Celexa, and Buspar.  Any others?  I’m not looking at diving into a heavy duty antidepressant…something mild is just fine.  Any comments, experiences, etc. are welcome. Thanks! Michelle

Response:

Priscilla, did you notice any weight gain with the Celexa and do you use any triptans as an abortive?  I noticed on the Celexa site that they warn against using some of the triptans…didn’t know if that was an issue for you?

I think I gained a bit of weight during the time I was on Zoloft (my dress size went up), but then I don’t watch my weight and generally eat what makes my body feel good, without attention to calories.  I don’t own bathroom scales. There’s no real problem taking triptans with SSRIs.  I use Imitrex, and I’ve taken it while on Prozac, Zoloft, and Celexa.  It does a very different thing from what the SSRIs do. Sleepiness for me at night would be very welcome…during the day would not.

This is during the day.  Can’t sit/lie down to read a book without zzzzzzing out.  At bedtime, however, I often need help from melatonin or Benedryl. Priscilla — "As you get older, physical deterioration is offset by a larger world view and a deeper sense of gratitude."  Diane Keaton

Response:

Hi all, I am looking at possibly going back on an antidepressant.  I’ve been on Paxil in the past and Effexor.  My experiences with Paxil and Effexor were both pretty good, but I did gain weight on the Paxil.  I wonder if people who have been on any of the antidepressants can share their experiences with them, i.e. did it help any of your migraines, chronic daily headaches, and did you experience side effects (and what were they)?

I’ve tried both tricyclics and SSRIs for ordinary migraines in the misty distant past.  The tricyclics seemed to help quite a bit, but had really weird side effects.  The SSRIs had barely-tolerable side effects (all different, I tried a bunch) and had just-barely perceptible effects on my headaches, I could never be sure if they were helping. Now I have chronic daily headaches, and Topomax is keeping them partly under control (I’m still in constant pain, but between the Topomax and the painkillers, it’s not quite so bad all the time.  Except when it flares up a few times a week.)  I tried adding a tricyclic antidepressant (25mg nortriptyline) as a preventative, and also for the antidepressant effects, because the Topomax and chronic pain together are awfully depressing.   I was only on the Nortriptyline for 3 days, because the side effects were so bad.  I used to describe my tricyclic (and a lot of other medication side effects) as "dizziness," or "motion sickness," even though it was oddly unlike vertigo.  It was like hallucinating, only with my sense of balance and that sense that tells you where your feet are without looking at them.  I’ve had "distorted perceptions" before, many times, but they usually last only a few minutes, and I can perceive reality kind of in the background.  With Nortriptyline, the distortion was much more intense, and it lasted about half an hour each time.  I did some research, and figured out that these were probably partial seizures.  I had 5 one day, 6 the next, then 4 the third day (when I tried to empty out half the powder in the nortriptyline capsule.)  I also had more absence seizures than I could count. The meds that come to my mind are Paxil, Effexor, Zoloft, Celexa, and Buspar.  Any others?  I’m not looking at diving into a heavy duty antidepressant…something mild is just fine.  Any comments, experiences, etc. are welcome.

One of my doctors said that the tricyclics were supposed to be most effective as migraine preventatives.  If you want something mild, you would want a low dose.  But all the tricyclics have the same risk of lowering the seizure threshold.  I think I had a mild seizure disorder for a long time, without knowing it, but going on and off the anti- seizure drugs (Depakote and Neurontin) and other drugs that were supposed to prevent migraine could have lowered my seizure threshold even further.   Adrian Turtle sidewalk radical

Response:

Actually I have used all of those with exception of the Prozac.  The topomax experience was not one I could continue because of severe hives that developed about eight months into the treatment.  The amitriptylene is kind of sketchy because I tried it so many years ago and it didn’t work then and I had side effects that made me quit. I’m actually looking for the antidepressant for the antidepressant effect and hoping to help my CDHs as a side issue. Thanks! Michelle

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have used Topopmax, Nortriptelyne and Prozac. Topomax worked except for dizzyness, Nortriptylene weight gain and Prozak nothing. Other high powered ones also caused extreme dizzyness amd nuaseau. If you can handle Topomax or Amitriptylene they might help. A good Neurologist is best way to go. Dr. Ken Moore is great out of Chicago area. This is his only specialialty. He is also covered by BCBS. http://www.helpforheadaches.com/ Even if you are from out of state he may be of help. 70% of his patients are from out of state. Jim Hi all, I am looking at possibly going back on an antidepressant.  I’ve been on Paxil in the past and Effexor.  My experiences with Paxil and Effexor were both pretty good, but I did gain weight on the Paxil.  I wonder if people who have been on any of the antidepressants can share their experiences with them, i.e. did it help any of your migraines, chronic daily headaches, and did you experience side effects (and what were they)? The meds that come to my mind are Paxil, Effexor, Zoloft, Celexa, and Buspar.  Any others?  I’m not looking at diving into a heavy duty antidepressant…something mild is just fine.  Any comments, experiences, etc. are welcome. Thanks! Michelle

Response:

Hi Michelle, I think during the time that I experienced CDH I tried about every SSRI they had out.  I think there may be a few new ones that i didn’t go on but the point is the entire time I took anti-depressants I also dealt with CDH and intractable migraines . I also took Desyrel to help me sleep and it did sleep me. But didn’t make any difference in the headaches. Since going off SSRI’s May of 2001 I’ve had a total of 3 migraines. Only 1 of them required more then imitrex to abort.  My CDH is just gone.  Yeah, I do still get headaches.  I’m a stress sponge I swear and when I get stressed I still get a headache, but believe it or not i can actually treat them OTC. That’s just my experience We’re all different but I can’t help but wonder if i had quit everything sooner what would have happened. Please understand that at the same time I quit the anti-deprssents i also got rid of a lot of other drugs.  Klonopin, muscle relaxors and percodan to name a few.  Any one of them or a combination of all of them could have contributed to my headaches. Hope this helps Karen – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi all, I am looking at possibly going back on an antidepressant.  I’ve been on Paxil in the past and Effexor.  My experiences with Paxil and Effexor were both pretty good, but I did gain weight on the Paxil.  I wonder if people who have been on any of the antidepressants can share their experiences with them, i.e. did it help any of your migraines, chronic daily headaches, and did you experience side effects (and what were they)? The meds that come to my mind are Paxil, Effexor, Zoloft, Celexa, and Buspar.  Any others?  I’m not looking at diving into a heavy duty antidepressant…something mild is just fine.  Any comments, experiences, etc. are welcome. Thanks! Michelle

Response:

Just thought I’d post this here FYI There is also a class action going against glaxosmithkline for paxil withdrawal information on it can also be found at this site (see url at end of article) Prozac, Zoloft, and Paxil Antidepressant Users v. Eli Lilly, Pfizer, and GlaxoSmithKline Commonly-Prescribed Antidepressants Are Extremely Dangerous for Some Some 200 legal actions have been filed against Eli Lilly, Pfizer, and GlaxoSmithKline, the manufacturers of Prozac (fluoxetine), Zoloft (sertraline), and Paxil (paroxetine), respectively, to recover for suicides or homicides–some completed, some only attempted–by patients in the first few days or weeks after they were prescribed one of these drugs.These three medications are in the same family, called SSRIs, for selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors. They are commonly prescribed for depression, and they work by increasing the amount of a chemical called serotonin in the brain. The actions against the drug companies claim that the companies knew–but failed to warn physicians and patients–that a small number of patients will experience a condition called akathisia, an overwhelming physical and mental restlessness, shortly after they begin taking these drugs. Other patients may, after beginning one of these medications, find themselves sufficiently energized to harm themselves, but not yet helped enough by the drug to control their destructive thoughts. Attorneys representing the patients or their survivors have discovered documents the companies hid–documents showing that these risks exist for all three antidepressants. Some of the patients who have suffered an akathisia reaction have been driven to horrible deeds. Matthew Miller was a 13-year-old who committed suicide less than a week after starting to take Zoloft. Donald Schell, 60, took two Paxil tablets before experiencing hallucinations and then shooting himself, his wife, their daughter, and their granddaughter to death on Feb. 13, 1998. On March 4, 1993, two weeks after starting to take Prozac, William Forsyth stabbed his wife 15 times as she lay in bed, and then leaned on the knife to kill himself. Reginald Payne, 63, a teacher in Great Britain, suffocated his wife and threw himself off a cliff in March 1996, after having taking Prozac for just 11 days. In July, 2001, a federal jury in Cheyenne, Wyoming ordered GlaxoSmithKline to pay $6.4 million to Donald Schell’s relatives. In that case, the relatives found internal GlaxoSmithKline documents showing the company was aware that a small number of people could become agitated or violent from Paxil. Despite this knowledge, Paxil packaging does not include a warning about suicide, violence or aggression. Documents Are Damning The documents discovered about Prozac are particularly revealing: 1. In 1990, Eli Lilly scientists were pressured by corporate executives to alter records on physicians’ experiences with Prozac, changing mentions of suicide attempts to "overdose" and suicidal thoughts to "depression." 2. Three years before Prozac received approval by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA), a similar agency in Germany had such serious reservations about Prozac’s safety that it refused to approve the antidepressant. Eli Lilly’s studies showed that previously nonsuicidal patients who took the drug had a five-fold higher rate of suicide and suicide attempts than those on older antidepressants, and a three-fold higher rate than those taking placebos. 3. Lilly’s own figures indicate that one in 100 previously nonsuicidal patients who took the drug in early clinical trials developed akathisia, causing them to attempt or commit suicide during the studies. It has also been discovered that the patent for a new version of Prozac, which Eli Lilly paid $90 million to acquire, states that the new formulation would reduce "the usual adverse effects" of the original Prozac, including "nervousness, anxiety, insomnia, inner restlessness (akathisia), suicidal thoughts, self-mutilation, manic behavior." Prozac was introduced by Eli Lilly to the U.S. market in January, 1988. Zoloft and Paxil followed in December, 1991, and December, 1992, respectively. Some 45,000 reports of adverse reactions to Prozac have been filed with the FDA. These include reports of about 2500 deaths, with the large majority linked to suicide or violence. Physicians Report Suicidal Reactions Dr. Martin Teicher of Harvard Medical School reported in 1990 that he and his colleagues had observed suicidal thoughts in six patients who were taking Prozac. More recently, Dr. David Healy, an expert on the brain’s serotonin system and the director of the North Wales Department of Psychological Medicine at the University of Wales, estimated that "probably 50,000 people have committed suicide on Prozac since its launch, over and above the number who would have done so if left untreated." Meanwhile, the drug companies continue to rely on a 1991 finding from an FDA advisory panel that "there is no credible evidence of a causal link between the use of antidepressant drugs, including Prozac, and suicidality or violent behaviour." http://www.classactionamerica.com/cases/case.asp?cid=1087

Response:

I have no problem with Nortriptyline which I am taking for 2 weeks.  I started and stayed on 10 mgs with no side effects to speak of; I have just increased my dose to 20 mgs, and I restarted Prozac yesterday.  I am also wearing the NTI appliance and my headaches are better [after 3 weeks].  I also take 1/3 of a triptan the last couple of days and may continue that as a preventative for a week or two and see how that works out.   Also, when I was on Paxil a few years ago, I think it cut down on some of my headaches at that time, but it had plenty of side effects. Joy

Response:

Thanks, Karen.  Interesting.  I had a conversation with my doctor today about the antidepressants and my experience with Paxil (weight gain and icky withdrawal).  He said it doesn’t have to be that way if a doctor closely manages the patient, but he also said Paxil really is bad for those two reasons.  He doesn’t typically prescribe it.  He said the newer drugs are actually turning out to have better results.  He mentioned Lexolor or something like that, but we agreed on Effexor for now since I did have good results with it last time.  We’ll see. I’ll check out the Paxil link…interesting. Thanks, Michelle

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just thought I’d post this here FYI There is also a class action going against glaxosmithkline for paxil withdrawal information on it can also be found at this site (see url at end of article) Prozac, Zoloft, and Paxil Antidepressant Users v. Eli Lilly, Pfizer, and GlaxoSmithKline Commonly-Prescribed Antidepressants Are Extremely Dangerous for Some Some 200 legal actions have been filed against Eli Lilly, Pfizer, and GlaxoSmithKline, the manufacturers of Prozac (fluoxetine), Zoloft (sertraline), and Paxil (paroxetine), respectively, to recover for suicides or homicides–some completed, some only attempted–by patients in the first few days or weeks after they were prescribed one of these drugs.These three medications are in the same family, called SSRIs, for selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors. They are commonly prescribed for depression, and they work by increasing the amount of a chemical called serotonin in the brain. The actions against the drug companies claim that the companies knew–but failed to warn physicians and patients–that a small number of patients will experience a condition called akathisia, an overwhelming physical and mental restlessness, shortly after they begin taking these drugs. Other patients may, after beginning one of these medications, find themselves sufficiently energized to harm themselves, but not yet helped enough by the drug to control their destructive thoughts. Attorneys representing the patients or their survivors have discovered documents the companies hid–documents showing that these risks exist for all three antidepressants. Some of the patients who have suffered an akathisia reaction have been driven to horrible deeds. Matthew Miller was a 13-year-old who committed suicide less than a week after starting to take Zoloft. Donald Schell, 60, took two Paxil tablets before experiencing hallucinations and then shooting himself, his wife, their daughter, and their granddaughter to death on Feb. 13, 1998. On March 4, 1993, two weeks after starting to take Prozac, William Forsyth stabbed his wife 15 times as she lay in bed, and then leaned on the knife to kill himself. Reginald Payne, 63, a teacher in Great Britain, suffocated his wife and threw himself off a cliff in March 1996, after having taking Prozac for just 11 days. In July, 2001, a federal jury in Cheyenne, Wyoming ordered GlaxoSmithKline to pay $6.4 million to Donald Schell’s relatives. In that case, the relatives found internal GlaxoSmithKline documents showing the company was aware that a small number of people could become agitated or violent from Paxil. Despite this knowledge, Paxil packaging does not include a warning about suicide, violence or aggression. Documents Are Damning The documents discovered about Prozac are particularly revealing: 1. In 1990, Eli Lilly scientists were pressured by corporate executives to alter records on physicians’ experiences with Prozac, changing mentions of suicide attempts to "overdose" and suicidal thoughts to "depression." 2. Three years before Prozac received approval by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA), a similar agency in Germany had such serious reservations about Prozac’s safety that it refused to approve the antidepressant. Eli Lilly’s studies showed that previously nonsuicidal patients who took the drug had a five-fold higher rate of suicide and suicide attempts than those on older antidepressants, and a three-fold higher rate than those taking placebos. 3. Lilly’s own figures indicate that one in 100 previously nonsuicidal patients who took the drug in early clinical trials developed akathisia, causing them to attempt or commit suicide during the studies. It has also been discovered that the patent for a new version of Prozac, which Eli Lilly paid $90 million to acquire, states that the new formulation would reduce "the usual adverse effects" of the original Prozac, including "nervousness, anxiety, insomnia, inner restlessness (akathisia), suicidal thoughts, self-mutilation, manic behavior." Prozac was introduced by Eli Lilly to the U.S. market in January, 1988. Zoloft and Paxil followed in December, 1991, and December, 1992, respectively. Some 45,000 reports of adverse reactions to Prozac have been filed with the FDA. These include reports of about 2500 deaths, with the large majority linked to suicide or violence. Physicians Report Suicidal Reactions Dr. Martin Teicher of Harvard Medical School reported in 1990 that he and his colleagues had observed suicidal thoughts in six patients who were taking Prozac. More recently, Dr. David Healy, an expert on the brain’s serotonin system and the director of the North Wales Department of Psychological Medicine at the University of Wales, estimated that "probably 50,000 people have committed suicide on Prozac since its launch, over and above the number who would have done so if left untreated." Meanwhile, the drug companies continue to rely on a 1991 finding from an FDA advisory panel that "there is no credible evidence of a causal link between the use of antidepressant drugs, including Prozac, and suicidality or violent behaviour." http://www.classactionamerica.com/cases/case.asp?cid=1087

Response:

Joy, About the Paxil side effects…that’s what my doctor said.  He doesn’t typically prescribe it unless a patient had a history with it that was good. I went with Effexor since I had used that before, but he also mentioned something like Lexolor (sp?), but I never heard of that. Michelle

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have no problem with Nortriptyline which I am taking for 2 weeks.  I started and stayed on 10 mgs with no side effects to speak of; I have just increased my dose to 20 mgs, and I restarted Prozac yesterday.  I am also wearing the NTI appliance and my headaches are better [after 3 weeks].  I also take 1/3 of a triptan the last couple of days and may continue that as a preventative for a week or two and see how that works out.   Also, when I was on Paxil a few years ago, I think it cut down on some of my headaches at that time, but it had plenty of side effects. Joy

Response:

Thanks, Holly, Mine are mainly caused by hormones.  I have since started taking Effexor since I did have success with it in the past.  It actually has helped and I have had five out of seven days migraine free.  The other two days I suspect were caused by the upper level low that came sweeping in with massive rain (another trigger–weather). Thanks, though. Michelle

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have used several anti-depressants for migraine control.  I also am deficient in serotonin.  They all gave me out of control carbohydrate cravings.  This is a common side-effect – it changes your appetite control centers.  Some people become anorexic others get terrible hunger.  But, I invested in a light-box.  It simulates sunlight (sunlight is supposed to increase serotonin levels in the brain, which is what ssri’s do also) and has totally kept my migraines at bay without use of any drugs.  If you keep track of migraine cycles you may be able to see if they decrease when you spend more time outside in brilliant sunshine.  Holly

Response:

I have used several anti-depressants for migraine control.  I also am deficient in serotonin.  They all gave me out of control carbohydrate cravings.  This is a common side-effect – it changes your appetite control centers.  Some people become anorexic others get terrible hunger.  But, I invested in a light-box.  It simulates sunlight (sunlight is supposed to increase serotonin levels in the brain, which is what ssri’s do also) and has totally kept my migraines at bay without use of any drugs.  If you keep track of migraine cycles you may be able to see if they decrease when you spend more time outside in brilliant sunshine.  Holly

Response:

hello, ask your doctor about amitryptyline… works wonders for me…only on 40 mg a day. Psylocke — "Friends are bacon bits in the salad of life"

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi all, I am looking at possibly going back on an antidepressant.  I’ve been on Paxil in the past and Effexor.  My experiences with Paxil and Effexor were both pretty good, but I did gain weight on the Paxil.  I wonder if people who have been on any of the antidepressants can share their experiences with them, i.e. did it help any of your migraines, chronic daily headaches, and did you experience side effects (and what were they)? The meds that come to my mind are Paxil, Effexor, Zoloft, Celexa, and Buspar.  Any others?  I’m not looking at diving into a heavy duty antidepressant…something mild is just fine.  Any comments, experiences, etc. are welcome. Thanks! Michelle

Response:

The only anti-depressant I take is Prozac and that is for my depression and for Attention Deficit Disorder. I take it once a day and it dosen’t do anything for my migraine headaches. barbara Booth

Response:

Really, prozac caused weight loss for you?  Seems funny since most of the other antidepressants seem to do just the opposite.  I gained ten pounds on Paxil. Is any of this helping with your migraines? Thanks! Michelle

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve been on the SSRI Prozac for maybe 16-18 years, and while it has some side effects I don’t care for (farting, tinnitus, dry mouth), it has some that are helpful (anorexia, wakeful-need to take it in the a.m.). And it’s available in a generic now. Prozac is also good at keeping weight off – they were or are marketing it as a weight reduction aid. I also take Elavil/actually I take Amitriptyline the generic at night, because it helps me sleep, and Elavil is good for overall pain syndromes in that it not only boosts the serotonin, but it also relaxes the muscles at night, which helps ensure better sleep. And it’s inexpensive. But its drawbacks are DRY mouth and dry eyes, and maybe tinnitus. I also took BuSpar several years ago, but it technically is a

tranquilizer, not an – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – antidepressant, even though it binds to serotonin receptors, and doesn’t make you sleepy. It’s a good drug, and fairly benign as far as side effects go. It was prescribed for me at MHNI. Ginnie Hi all, I am looking at possibly going back on an antidepressant.  I’ve been on Paxil in the past and Effexor.  My experiences with Paxil and Effexor were both pretty good, but I did gain weight on the Paxil.  I wonder if people who have been on any of the antidepressants can share their experiences with them, i.e. did it help any of your migraines, chronic daily headaches, and did you experience side effects (and what were they)? The meds that come to my mind are Paxil, Effexor, Zoloft, Celexa, and Buspar.  Any others?  I’m not looking at diving into a heavy duty antidepressant…something mild is just fine.  Any comments, experiences, etc. are welcome. Thanks! Michelle

Response:

Priscilla, did you notice any weight gain with the Celexa and do you use any triptans as an abortive?  I noticed on the Celexa site that they warn against using some of the triptans…didn’t know if that was an issue for you? Sleepiness for me at night would be very welcome…during the day would not. Thanks, Michelle

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi all, I am looking at possibly going back on an antidepressant.  I’ve been on Paxil in the past and Effexor.  My experiences with Paxil and Effexor were both pretty good, but I did gain weight on the Paxil.  I wonder if people who have been on any of the antidepressants can share their experiences with them, i.e. did it help any of your migraines, chronic daily headaches, and did you experience side effects (and what were they)? The meds that come to my mind are Paxil, Effexor, Zoloft, Celexa, and Buspar.  Any others?  I’m not looking at diving into a heavy duty antidepressant…something mild is just fine.  Any comments, experiences, etc. are welcome. I’m going off Celexa and back to Zoloft because I suspect Celexa may be responsible for my terrible sleepiness.  It worked well as an antidepressant, as did Zoloft before (and I hope again!). Priscilla — "As you get older, physical deterioration is offset by a larger world view and a deeper sense of gratitude."  Diane Keaton

Response:

I’ve been on the SSRI Prozac for maybe 16-18 years, and while it has some side effects I don’t care for (farting, tinnitus, dry mouth), it has some that are helpful (anorexia, wakeful-need to take it in the a.m.). And it’s available in a generic now. Prozac is also good at keeping weight off – they were or are marketing it as a weight reduction aid. I also take Elavil/actually I take Amitriptyline the generic at night, because it helps me sleep, and Elavil is good for overall pain syndromes in that it not only boosts the serotonin, but it also relaxes the muscles at night, which helps ensure better sleep. And it’s inexpensive. But its drawbacks are DRY mouth and dry eyes, and maybe tinnitus. I also took BuSpar several years ago, but it technically is a tranquilizer, not an antidepressant, even though it binds to serotonin receptors, and doesn’t make you sleepy. It’s a good drug, and fairly benign as far as side effects go. It was prescribed for me at MHNI. Ginnie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi all, I am looking at possibly going back on an antidepressant.  I’ve been on Paxil in the past and Effexor.  My experiences with Paxil and Effexor were both pretty good, but I did gain weight on the Paxil.  I wonder if people who have been on any of the antidepressants can share their experiences with them, i.e. did it help any of your migraines, chronic daily headaches, and did you experience side effects (and what were they)? The meds that come to my mind are Paxil, Effexor, Zoloft, Celexa, and Buspar.  Any others?  I’m not looking at diving into a heavy duty antidepressant…something mild is just fine.  Any comments, experiences, etc. are welcome. Thanks! Michelle

Response:

Hi all, I am looking at possibly going back on an antidepressant.  I’ve been on Paxil in the past and Effexor.  My experiences with Paxil and Effexor were both pretty good, but I did gain weight on the Paxil.  I wonder if people who have been on any of the antidepressants can share their experiences with them, i.e. did it help any of your migraines, chronic daily headaches, and did you experience side effects (and what were they)? The meds that come to my mind are Paxil, Effexor, Zoloft, Celexa, and Buspar.  Any others?  I’m not looking at diving into a heavy duty antidepressant…something mild is just fine.  Any comments, experiences, etc. are welcome.

I’m going off Celexa and back to Zoloft because I suspect Celexa may be responsible for my terrible sleepiness.  It worked well as an antidepressant, as did Zoloft before (and I hope again!). Priscilla — "As you get older, physical deterioration is offset by a larger world view and a deeper sense of gratitude."  Diane Keaton

Response:

Have tried the tricyclics (no help, much weight gain); three SSRIs (no help & no libido either); and Welbutrin (no help, spoiled my occasional cigar…hee hee). Sorry. Hope your experience is better. –Julianne

Response:

Hi all, I am looking at possibly going back on an antidepressant.  I’ve been on Paxil in the past and Effexor.  My experiences with Paxil and Effexor were both pretty good, but I did gain weight on the Paxil.  I wonder if people who have been on any of the antidepressants can share their experiences with them, i.e. did it help any of your migraines, chronic daily headaches, and did you experience side effects (and what were they)? The meds that come to my mind are Paxil, Effexor, Zoloft, Celexa, and Buspar.  Any others?  I’m not looking at diving into a heavy duty antidepressant…something mild is just fine.  Any comments, experiences, etc. are welcome. Thanks! Michelle

Response:

Question:

http://www.effexorfx.freeuk.com/

It linked to http://rxlist.com and I noted the connection between Effexor and blood pressure.  Though the data played down the impact of Effexor, it did indicate that Effexor did raise blood pressure in proportion to dose. I just had my blood pressure taken after 9 months of Effexor XR 150mg.  The first systolic reading was 170 and the second was 160.  The nurse was worried that I was about to have a stroke!  I stopped taking it for several days, today my reading was 145/90 (still too high but not stroke-level). I am going to go for a week without it and see what my blood pressure drops to.  Although I am somewhat overweight and my diet is not too good, I am convinced that the Effexor is the chief cause of my high blood pressure.  Just 2 years ago it was only 125 in a doctor’s office.

Response:

http://www.effexorfx.freeuk.com/

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Question:

Hi, I’ve been on 50mg of Zoloft for 8 weeks which has worked great overall.  My only complaint is a lot of muscle tension.  It’s faded somewhat over these first 2 months, but is it likely to subside even more or am I probably stuck with it? Thanks! Fritz

Response:

Wow, I didn’t get the muscle tension.  I got an upset tummy and the runs for a few weeks and then that went away.  The only lingering side effect I have is lack of sex drive.  Hate it. Hope your tension goes away.  Good luck,  Amanda – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, I’ve been on 50mg of Zoloft for 8 weeks which has worked great overall.  My only complaint is a lot of muscle tension.  It’s faded somewhat over these first 2 months, but is it likely to subside even more or am I probably stuck with it? Thanks! Fritz

Response:

For me zoloft killed my libido seemingly forever…I no longer have ‘the fire’ and i do miss it!! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Wow, I didn’t get the muscle tension.  I got an upset tummy and the runs for a few weeks and then that went away.  The only lingering side effect I have is lack of sex drive.  Hate it. Hope your tension goes away.  Good luck,  Amanda Hi, I’ve been on 50mg of Zoloft for 8 weeks which has worked great overall.  My only complaint is a lot of muscle tension.  It’s faded somewhat over these first 2 months, but is it likely to subside even more or am I probably stuck with it? Thanks! Fritz

Response:

Wow. I’m glad it wasn’t just me. My doctor warned me about it, but I figured that it was more important to get through every day with a clear head than get a little action once a month. That’s my only side effect, but it’s a doozy! ~Paul For me zoloft killed my libido seemingly forever…I no longer have ‘the fire’ and i do miss it!!

The only lingering side effect – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have is lack of sex drive.  Hate it.

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Question:

Hi Betsy, Excellent thread! For those of you who are on antidepressants, what different sorts of experiences have you had that show they’re working? We’re all taught to recognize such symptoms of depression as deep sadness, lack of energy, apathy, etc.

What shows they are working.  I think it’s good to approach this from both the lack of negative symptoms *and* the return of positives: – Less deep sadness, replaced by feelings of calm or "normalcy".  The "normalcy" is noticed by realizations that "hey!  this is how I used to feel when I wasn’t depressed!". – Lack of energy, replaced by just the ability to get out of bed and in the shower in order to make it to work on time.  Feeling rested after a normal nights sleep, instead of wanting to sleep all day. – Apathy replaced by hope that things can get better, and caring about that, which also can ironically cause some fear in me.  In the 3 weeks I’ve been taking meds for dysthymia (low grade chronic depression), these things, to the less profound degree I’ve felt them, have cleared up.  

Good!  I’m glad for you! But a more noticeable difference for me is a greater ability/willingness to be open and honest with my feelings *before* a fuse gets lit — I don’t keep from speaking up and let things fester so much.  Then a problem can be resolved when it’s still small, and my feelings stay more neutral during and after the resolution.  It’s weird.  : )

I’ve noticed that I tend to be able to resolve things in a more tactful appropriate manner sooner when I’m doing well on antidepressants.  One concern that I have is that one of the meds I take is Klonopin, and it gives me what I would consider an artificial self confidence and changes my personality in ways that I’m more laid back and I’ve noticed that people respond very positively to that.  My sense of humor increases too, or at least my ability to convey it. The concern is that Klonopin is addictive, and I must moderate its use.  I never take more than the prescribed dosage, but sometimes recently I have been taking up to 2mg (like today), so I want to go a week or so without it, or maybe taking only .5mg. Two of the lesser-talked-about symptoms of depression are persistent feelings of low self-worth and guilt.  I’m not saying that antidepressants are the cure-all for these feelings, but I wonder if the meds are helping to relieve some of these feelings in me so that speaking up is a more tolerable option now?

I think this goes back to speaking up — that can help relieve guilt. If you’re feeling less depressed and good about yourself in general, it’s easier to brush off someone else’s inappropriate guilt feelings. This past weekend I told my Mom I was going to try to contact the Make a Wish Foundation to see if she could get tickets to see Tiger Woods in Rockford.  My Mom’s been through a lot, she loves Tiger Woods, and it would make her sooooooo happy.  It would make me equally or more happy to be able to make her happy.  Well, when I asked my Mom if I have her permission to do that, my sister said, in an irritated condescending tone of voice that Make a Wish is only for terminally ill children. Well, my first feeling was hurt.  I had taken a risk and gone out of my way to try to do something positive, and immediately it was shot down by my sister (but my Mom liked the idea — anything to see Tiger Woods  My sister started to say more, and I realized I didn’t want to get into a debate with her.  So, I said I didn’t want to talk about it.  She called me rude for not wanting to talk about it, that when someone wants to talk I "should" talk.  I said no, I’m setting a boundary and I choose not to talk about it. Mainly, because I saw it as a lose-lose conversation or a win-lose conversation.  In converstations like that, I don’t want to be the winner or loser.  I want it to be win-win, or an intelligent discussion of the ways to find out what the Make a Wish covers, and also an acknowledgement of the intent. If I were in depression, I may not have been as internally comfortable about how I handled it.  I was at peace after I set the boundary, event though my sister was frustrated and tried to get me to participate more in the conversation. She also has a young daughter.  During the weekend she said "Kevin!!! Shannon has hair spray in her hand, you "should" have closed the bathroom door".  I said "Sure, no problem, I will be happy to do that in the future.  I just need to be informed of these things and you hadn’t let me know to do that".  She said yes, I know I did because I told Randy (my brother).  (as if someone else is evidence that she told me).  I left it as a final "I don’t believe you told me otherwise I would have gladly complied, but I’ll be sure to do it in the future". It’s almost like the meds have taken the power out of the "excuses" depression makes me vulnerable to (I’m too tired; it’ll never work; I’m not good enough) and the healthier thoughts I’ve been planting all along in therapy, etc. have a chance to actually be heard — by me.

YES.  *This* is what meds (IMO) are good for.  The depression support group I go to says this too, and this is my experience.  For me, the meds put me in a state where I’m more willing to remember and apply the healthy thoughts from therapy and other sources, and it also makes therapy more effective — instead of always dealing with depression in therapy and "dysthymia-struggles" (to coin a term), it can get to dealing more in the soluiton. Of course, it could all be placebo effect, too.  At this point I really don’t care.  : )  Just wondered what you guys have experienced?

I don’t think it’s the placebo effect.  After years of taking meds, not taking them when I was supposed to, forgetting to take them, not taking them as prescribed, taking them while drinking, I eventually had a lot of empirical data that leads me to believe, for me anyway, that the meds do help a lot.  I have been taking them as prescribed, except for Klonopin which I choose to take as needed because I know how addictive it can be. Betsy

Another point about meds.  Sometimes it takes a loooong time to find a good match, or the right meds (not to mention a good psychiatrist). Right now, crossing fingers, the combination of 150mg of Effexor XR, with 50mg Zoloft recently re-added (because I was proactive and contacted the psychiatrist), occasional use of Klonopin as needed, and 50-100mg of Trazodone for sleeping (I almost always take 50mg) works very well.  Today, I can honestly say I feel "normal" (just for today).  Maybe a little depressed and sad, but at least functional. About the placebo effect.  I wonder whether the full spectrum lights and the SAD lights have a placebo effect for me.  I don’t care.  All I know is that after a long day at work under my full spectrum light, when I go out into the dark winter here, I almost feel like I had a day of sunshine and the dark night seems more natural.  So, the lighting helps also. Kevin P.S. — thanks for your recent e-mail Betsy, I’ll try to get back to you (and a few others who’ve e-mailed in the last few weeks, some of whom I haven’t heard from in a while)

Response:

For those of you who are on antidepressants, what different sorts of experiences have you had that show they’re working? We’re all taught to recognize such symptoms of depression as deep sadness, lack of energy, apathy, etc.  In the 3 weeks I’ve been taking meds for dysthymia (low grade chronic depression), these things, to the less profound degree I’ve felt them, have cleared up.  But a more noticeable difference for me is a greater ability/willingness to be open and honest with my feelings *before* a fuse gets lit — I don’t keep from speaking up and let things fester so much.  Then a problem can be resolved when it’s still small, and my feelings stay more neutral during and after the resolution.  It’s weird.  : ) Two of the lesser-talked-about symptoms of depression are persistent feelings of low self-worth and guilt.  I’m not saying that antidepressants are the cure-all for these feelings, but I wonder if the meds are helping to relieve some of these feelings in me so that speaking up is a more tolerable option now? It’s almost like the meds have taken the power out of the "excuses" depression makes me vulnerable to (I’m too tired; it’ll never work; I’m not good enough) and the healthier thoughts I’ve been planting all along in therapy, etc. have a chance to actually be heard — by me. Of course, it could all be placebo effect, too.  At this point I really don’t care.  : )  Just wondered what you guys have experienced? Betsy

Response:

– Lack of energy, replaced by just the ability to get out of bed and in the shower in order to make it to work on time.  Feeling rested after a normal nights sleep, instead of wanting to sleep all day.

I’ve stopped taking 3-4 hour naps on the weekends.  : )  There’s all sorts of stuff to do when you look for it. I’ve noticed that I tend to be able to resolve things in a more tactful appropriate manner sooner when I’m doing well on antidepressants.  One concern that I have is that one of the meds I take is Klonopin, and it gives me what I would consider an artificial self confidence and changes my personality in ways that I’m more laid back and I’ve noticed that people respond very positively to that.

Is it an antianxiety med?  It’s interesting that you say it feels like an artificial self-confidence.  Does that mean that anxiety feels natural for you??  I don’t quite know how to respond, except that you seem to be staying self-aware about your use of it and that’s a good thing. I think this goes back to speaking up — that can help relieve guilt. If you’re feeling less depressed and good about yourself in general, it’s easier to brush off someone else’s inappropriate guilt feelings.

Exactly.  And the low self-esteem, that also leads to not speaking up or even counting my needs and feelings as important enough to bother dealing with. It’s a sort of self-sustaining loop in depression, apathy/low self-worth/lethargy. Regarding the incident with your sister, she sounds more than a little stressed-out herself.  : )  But you handled her very well! It’s almost like the meds have taken the power out of the "excuses" depression makes me vulnerable to (I’m too tired; it’ll never work; I’m not good enough) and the healthier thoughts I’ve been planting all along in therapy, etc. have a chance to actually be heard — by me. YES.  *This* is what meds (IMO) are good for.  The depression support group I go to says this too, and this is my experience.

You don’t know how encouraging it is to hear this, Kevin. One of the worst things about chronic depression is that little by little, year by year, you’re just resigning yourself to the fact that this is what life feels like.  You don’t even think it CAN be different.  It’s such a relief to know there’s something that can actually help.  And yet, I don’t feel as if the meds are "doing" it to me, I feel like I’m the one making the choices and changing my behavior.  I don’t think it’s the placebo effect.  After years of taking meds, not taking them when I was supposed to, forgetting to take them, not taking them as prescribed, taking them while drinking, I eventually had a lot of empirical data that leads me to believe, for me anyway, that the meds do help a lot.  I have been taking them as prescribed, except for Klonopin which I choose to take as needed because I know how addictive it can be.

Thank you so much for sharing your experience, it really is valuable to me. You’ve been around the block with this and I know you speak from experience. Happy New Year! Betsy

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Shanon, How is it different that I am using a drug to alter the way I feel in somewhat the same way that they are using drugs to alter the way that they feel. -)  You are being monitored by a professional throughout the complete period of taking your "drugs" — your friends are not. -)  You are being prescribed the correct dosage of your "drug" — your friends not. -)  Your friends may become addicted to their drugs — you are *very* unlikely to become addicted to yours.

I agree with you completely.  I’m not a chemist, so when I was using pot all those years I really had no idea exactly what dosage I needed to obtain the feeling I wanted.  And I didn’t want to alleviate a painful condition, I wanted to obtain a high. The partnership with one and maybe two professionals, if you have a therapist, makes treatment with meds for depression a vastly different experience than chasing a high with street drugs. Betsy

Response:

Shanon, How is it different that I am using a drug to alter the way I feel in somewhat the same way that they are using drugs to alter the way that they feel.

-)  You are being monitored by a professional throughout the complete period of taking your "drugs" — your friends are not. -)  You are being prescribed the correct dosage of your "drug" — your friends not. -)  Your friends may become addicted to their drugs — you are *very* unlikely to become addicted to yours. Yes, medicine can also be a "drug" and basically humans can become addicted to almost anything, I think. Drugs have been widely used since the beginning of mankind. Weren’t it the Maya who used leaves of the coke plant to enhance their bodily capabilities?? The main difference between the drug known as medicine and what people think of as "real" drugs is that there is a safety/precaution variable included — your doc. If you’re self-medicating yourself its drug abuse and may lead to dependency. At least I think of it that way. Hope that helped. Pete ;O) — ~ But if you’re in the eye of storm. Think of the lonely dove. The experience of survival is the key. To the gravitiy of love. ~ -Enigma

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Since I have started Paxil, I have noticed so many positive effects.. First of all, my anxiety level has plummetted  - thank God!!  Secondly, my need to complete everything in order has subsided a little bit, I no longer panic if I don’t follow a schedule  or stick to an exact plan.  My depression has gotten so much better as well, I still feel bad sometimes, but nothing how I used to feel. But, then I wonder if this is a good thing.  I mean, I have friends who do drugs like pot and ecstacy – they say that the drugs make them happy – ecstacy makes them feel empathetic and like they have a connection with people.  Pot makes them calm, helps them concentrate, takes the edge off of their angry dispositions.  So I’m wondering, how am I different from them in my own use of Paxil?  How is it different that I am using a drug to alter the way I feel in somewhat the same way that they are using drugs to alter the way that they feel.  The only difference is that my drugs are legal.   I guess I’m rambling.. Shanon

Response:

For those of you who are on antidepressants, what different sorts of experiences have you had that show they’re working?

I am able to sleep.  I am able to not obsess about things, to let things go, to go to work.  I am able to eat better without so much worry that I will wake up the next morning weighting a ton.  When I have gone off my antidepressants the first thing I notice returning is my anxiety, which results in insomnia and obsessive compulsive behaviors.  I have gone off and back on many times against medical advise, and I know that they help me tremendously.  When I am off, I crash so bad.  Love Kal

Response:

i am not as reactive emotionally. but in a good way.  i can still cry and i do feel anger, but its not rage anymore.

What a relief this must be.  I have had flashes of rage throughout the years, for me I think they’re related to unrelenting depression.   it has slowed my mind down.  my mind used to race so fast , i talked fast, etc.  now i am more even keeled.  it has helped me to sleep better and longer.  which is wonderful considering my history of insomnia.  and i am more positive thinking now, i dont get so down on myself and i dont feel hopeless. i look for solutions to problems now and it helps to keep my chin up

but you’re an important part of ase-d for me. You are not your struggles, you are the person inside and I just wanted to let you know I see you.  : ) Happy New Year! Betsy

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Question:

How do you deal with it? I’m having a difficult time with these issues

right now. I feel that the number one goal in my life right now is to get healthy, and find a "path" with heart, but my mind keeps dwelling on my lack of true, deep, committed relationships, with friends or a lover… I was talking to someone once about priorities and in which order should you establish a healthy foundation upon which to build a strong loving relationship. The person I was with sighted the aircraft safety routine as a suitable example as how to survive. In the event of a cabin depressurization the oxygen masks drop from the locker above for you to place over your face, but sat next to you is your child. Should you place the mask on yourself first and then onto your child or should you attend to your child first? The aircraft safety videos recommend that your priority is yourself first and then those around you because you’re little if any use to anyone else if in pain or worse still – dead. Yes I know it’s trite but it’s oh so true, if you’re to have a healthy and happy relationship then it’s essential that you learn to love yourself first. The love of someone else can be like oxygen and take you high and makes you feel wonderful, but alas what happens when they deprive you of that oxygen, you fall crumpled into a heap on the floor struggling for breath. You have to learn to breath for yourself. There’s the opposite swing to that pendulum which is just as bad, if not worse, that of being too capable and not needing anyone. I don’t know which is the lesser of the two crappy situations. But as a certain asd’er would say "it’s all about balance". Your number one goal is to get healthy, the rest will follow. Regards Michael

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p&e I’m there, knowing and living the feeling, Trevor.  I would be content to just have the connection part right now.  Someone to hold my hand and tell me that they could give and receive what I take and share. Karl I still remember the dream there I still remember the time you said goodbye – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – But boy, what I wouldn’t do to have someone to hold tonight, and not just anyone, but someone I could love, and connect with on many levels.

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How do you deal with it? I’m having a difficult time with these issues right now. I feel that the number one goal in my life right now is to get healthy, and find a "path" with heart, but my mind keeps dwelling on my lack of true, deep, committed relationships, with friends or a lover… Recommended reading: R.D. Laing, "The Politics of Experience." It’s helping me get through this. But boy, what I wouldn’t do to have someone to hold tonight, and not just anyone, but someone I could love, and connect with on many levels. Alas, I’m sleeping with myself tonight. Trevor "THIS IS NOT A TEST" Pratt ICQ#36663009

Response:

It’s a good analogy Michael.

Thanks Trevor but I can’t claim the credit for it I get really devastated when I break up with someone. I think I must have an abandonment issue somewhere…my father, maybe. Not getting enough love from my mom? Being sexually abused by my stepfather. I don’t know.

Not only are the above issues to be considered Trevor, but they now form the fundamental structure to those behavioral patterns we employ when faced with parallel issues such as love, belonging, need etc (aside from the sexual abuse we share similar experiences). The one thing I’ve learnt is to accept that we have what society would affectionately term a warped sense of normality meaning that we can’t have a regular relationship without working flat out to maintain normality, not to smother, not to be aloof, overly self protective, abusive etc. I have had to learn what normal means if I’m to share my existence with a partner. My normality runs in-between self imposed parallel lines, boundaries of constraint. When someone behaves in a way that forces me to cross my parameter fence, I have to stop and ask myself "is this normal, is this safe, am I to explore previously uncharted grounds or am I being attacked?"  There are times I would give anything to know what a normal well adjusted person thinks when presented with something beyond their normal perceived range of vision. In adult life we rarely stop to change or readjust our emotional clothing, but carry on wearing those same old clothes that no longer fit. When confronted with a situation that bears a passing resemblance to a past experience such as looking for love, being needed etc – we engage automatic and travel along our established route, a route which is now redundant and only goes to Disaster Street. The first thing we do when we’ve crapped up another situation is beat the living shit out of ourselves, but that’s like punishing a child for being blind and letting the child that blinded him – go free. : I don’t think I could take being alone for the rest of my life, and that’s one of my greatest fears. It may sound a callus thing to say Trevor but if you’re to find what you’re looking for then it’s essential that you work on yourself first. People like us can’t rush into relationships carrying out pasts upon our backs because we don’t have regular and therefore safe notions of love, need, confidence and security. If you rush into a situation without hiding some of those intimidating legacies then you’re gonna scare ten bells of crap out of everyone Regards Michael

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was talking to someone once about priorities and in which order should you establish a healthy foundation upon which to build a strong loving relationship. The person I was with sighted the aircraft safety routine as a suitable example as how to survive. In the event of a cabin depressurization the oxygen masks drop from the locker above for you to place over your face, but sat next to you is your child. Should you place the mask on yourself first and then onto your child or should you attend to your child first? The aircraft safety videos recommend that your priority is yourself first and then those around you because you’re little if any use to anyone else if in pain or worse still – dead. Yes I know it’s trite but it’s oh so true, if you’re to have a healthy and happy relationship then it’s essential that you learn to love yourself first. The love of someone else can be like oxygen and take you high and makes you feel wonderful, but alas what happens when they deprive you of that oxygen, you fall crumpled into a heap on the floor struggling for breath. You have to learn to breath for yourself.

It’s a good analogy Michael. I get really devastated when I break up with someone. I think I must have an abandonment issue somewhere…my father, maybe. Not getting enough love from my mom? Being sexually abused by my stepfather. I don’t know. There’s the opposite swing to that pendulum which is just as bad, if not worse, that of being too capable and not needing anyone. I don’t know which is the lesser of the two crappy situations. But as a certain asd’er would say "it’s all about balance". Your number one goal is to get healthy, the rest will follow. Regards Michael

Thanks Michael. Balance. Because we’re never going to be perfect. We are not rocks. We are not islands. (Lots of song metaphors going on in this thread Love is like oxygen, you get too much, you get too high, not enough and you’re gonna die) I’m actually feeling less "crazed" about being alone than, say last month, or the month before that, but then I wonder, where is that point? The point when I’m ok to love someone, and they love me. Can I love myself if I’m depressed? I think that I’m pretty ok, actually, not great, not horrible, but some- place in-between. I have depression, and Essential Tremor. I’m also very smart, kinda attractive in an unusual way (androgenous, I guess, especially since my once long hair is now about 1/2in" long!), known to diplay wit and humour at times, and an extremely empathetic person. (Working hard at being non-judgemental right now) I think I like myself. Is that not good enough? How healthy do I have to be to deserve love? How fucking long do I have to wait for a good person to come along? Is it bad to need love? Healthy love? Need? Want? What does it all mean? Ahhhhhhhg. I’m so confused. I see people all around me with lovers, partners, husbands, wives, children. Are they better than me in some way? Looking at them, it doesn’t seem so. I can live without someone’s arms around me, someone to be intimate with. I’ve been doing it for quite some time. I’m still alive. I just feel a longing, that’s it, a longing to have someone understand me, and care, and vice-verca. I don’t think I could take being alone for the rest of my life, and that’s one of my greatest fears. Namaste, Trevor

Response:

Question:

HomemakerJ wrote:

I thought walnut trees were the ones choked everything else out because of their high whatever (acidity?) so that nothing will grow under them. I know they’re the ones that shed so many leaves you are never done raking them.  I’m not sure how people friendly they are if they’re in your own back yard.

Well, actually I was sort of thinking of them being in orchards.  Maybe instead of coca in South America.  But I don’t know where they grow well.  I know we have them in Northern California, but I don’t think I have heard of them growing in dry arid areas (where I think even olive trees can survive).  But we have a ‘growing’ market in olive oils – why not in walnut oils (especially if they come in different grades…sounds yuppie enough to me). I think its olive trees that ‘take over’, but it could be walnuts as well.  But isn’t walnut a valued hardwood? Wendy hypo…@aol.com

Response:

On 2 Nov 1998 06:02:10 GMT, hypo…@aol.com (Hypoint) wrote:

I think its olive trees that ‘take over’, but it could be walnuts as well.  But isn’t walnut a valued hardwood?

It most certainly is in Europe. The wood has beautiful patterns. I think it’s more of a forest tree as they are very big and slow growing.  Of course, these days I’d have thought dwarfing/fast growing root stocks would be available if walnuts were considered commercial enough! Bestishes Joanna

Response:

Joanna wrote:

(Hypoint) wrote: I think its olive trees that ‘take over’, but it could be walnuts as well. But isn’t walnut a valued hardwood? It most certainly is in Europe. The wood has beautiful patterns. I think it’s more of a forest tree as they are very big and slow growing.  Of course, these days I’d have thought dwarfing/fast growing root stocks would be available if walnuts were considered commercial enough! Bestishes

I’ve seen dwarf fruit trees, but I don’t recall ever seeing any dwarf nut trees, but I never really looked. In California, walnut trees could very well increase in value commercially if indeed they provide an oil that is both considered beneficial and able to be produced in various grades.  California is experiencing a re-surgence of olive tree plantings and lots of varieties of flavored olive oils are showing up in all sorts of stores.  So I wonder what walnut oil could be flavored with? Wendy hypo…@aol.com

Response:

Valery, I use Natural Progesterone and supplements of Magnesium and Vit B-6 for my strong peri-symptoms.  I have used them for the past 2 1/2 years and have been able to use it alone instead of Imatrex for migraines and Xanax and Zoloft for anxiety and depression associated with my peri.  Feel free to visit my web site at http://www.expage.com/page/hotflash as well as the Hotflash Bulletin Board, theres lots of great articles there on alternatives. Itchy http://www.insidetheweb.com/mbs.cgi/mb129876 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Valery wrote:

Thanks again, everybody, for your insights and understanding when I posted earlier this week  You helped me through a really stressful week, and I really appreciate it. I know this has probably been discussed before, but what herbs/vitamins are good for our peri symptoms?  Seems like Gingko helps, but is there anything else?  Thought about trying the Kava kava again, but I don’t respond to it as dramatically as some people – unfortunately.  Took some Valerian compound yesterday and this morning, and think it helps some. Thanks also for all the food information!  Even though reading through it makes me hungry    :  )   Can’t wait to try the Tapenade!  Sounds yummy! Val

Response:

Itchy wrote:

supplements of Magnesium and Vit B-6 for my strong peri-symptoms.  

Val, I think a similar post is what triggered my research into the food sources for various supplements.  If you search for Chicken using DejaNews you will find a recipe or two for Chicken with Beans that gives you nutritional sources of both Magnesium and B-6.  I will also see if I can round up a few more. I feel since we have to eat everyday anyway, we might as well figure out how to do it in a way that nourishes us a little better than if we didn’t put much thought into it. Wendy hypo…@aol.com

Response:

The URL Itchy offered up leads to her commercial web site. While she may be posting out of a genuine desire to be helpful, it’s important for folks to know she sells the supplements she uses. Regards, vlhb…@aol.com

Response:

Hypoint wrote:

… California is experiencing a re-surgence of olive tree plantings and lots of varieties of flavored olive oils are showing up in all sorts of stores.  So I wonder what walnut oil could be flavored with?

The flavored varieties of olive oil usually use the "light" (late pressing?) olive oils, which have so little flavor of their own that they can handle being doctored with garlic, chilis, etc. Flavored olive oils are classic marketing success story: With virgin and extra-virgin olive oil gaining favor in the American market, the olive growers found a way to dress up the "less desirable" "pure" quality oil, call it a specialty product and jack up the price. Walnut oil, like extra-virgin olive oil, has a fairly robust flavor of its own; if you wanted to flavor it, you’d either have to filter the walnut taste out, or add flavors that went well with walnut. Hm. I’ll have to ponder that for a while… –Pat Kight figuring "walnut chocolate oil" is probably right out … kig…@peak.org

Response:

Vlhb002 wrote:

The URL Itchy offered up leads to her commercial web site. While she may be posting out of a genuine desire to be helpful, it’s important for folks to know she sells the supplements she uses.

… and that the "natural progesterone" products, in particular, are the subject of a fair amount of controversy over whether they (a) contain any significant level of progesterone at all and (b) work, except in the sense that placebos sometimes "work." –Pat Kight kig…@peak.org

Response:

I hope someone else can come up with some good non commercial herb websites for Valery, Here is one that mentions scientific studies on Ginkgo biloba .  None of the other herbs usually mentioned for menopause are listed in this article. http://www.ti.ubc.ca/pages/letter25.htm Herbal medicines, an evidence based look I see Maida Taylor, MD has an article on Black Cohosh http://www.hcrc.org/faqs/c/cohosh.html On Tue, 03 Nov 1998 13:23:20 -0500, itchy…@postoffice.swbell.net wrote:

Valery, I use Natural Progesterone

Natural Progesterone is a hormone drug and should be considered in consultation with a health professional.   It is not an herb or vitamin. For  <non commercial

information on Natural Progesterone, otc and/or

prescription, not in any particular order  we have: http://www.menopause.org/naturals.htm http://www.menopause-online.com/progestins.htm http://www.pangea.ca/~afi/volxino1/progesterone.html http://www.rxmed.com/monographs/promet.html http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/english/archives/96-97/97_31e.htm http://www.sma.org/smj/97aug16.htm http://www.cponline.gsm.com/scripts/fullmono/showmono.pl?mononum=562&… http://www.thelancet.com/newlancet/reg/issues/vol350no9070/news_sm35…. http://www.thelancet.com/newlancet/reg/issues/vol351no9111/research12… http://www.fda.gov/cder/approval/index.htm http://www.sciam.com/1998/0698womens/0698leibenbox1.html http://www.medscape.com/Medscape/womens.health/1998/v03.n05/wh5646.pe… http://www.hcrc.org/contrib/taylor/taylor.html http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/wildyam.html And probably many more. My point being there is no reason to consult with itchybaun about the use of this product. ( Medscape and The Lancet interactive require free registration for access) But rather than slogging through those urls, any good menopause book will have information on hormone drugs, including natural progesterone. I recommend Dr. Susan Love’s Hormone book, should be at any public library or now available in paperback. Kathryn droz…@direct.ca

Response:

Karen and Wendy wrote (sort of): walnut oil recipes? Karen wrote:

They are lowcarb recipes, not lowfat. Also, I did get them from the web somewhere, so they are out there. Since I don’t use a free-standing newsreader, I’d have to type them in, and since this is crunch time at work, I’m just not going to do that. I’m too close to an RSI right now. I looked for it at Trader Joe’s today, and didn’t see any, so I’ll check out a health food store in Castro Valley that carries lots of food stuffs. Trader Joe’s now sells lox bits, $2.50 for 8 oz. Perfect for omelets. And for eating out of the pkg.:)

I’ll search for walnut oil recipes. Got my salmon patties at Trader Joe’s today.  Also they were demo’ing lox. Didn’t notice the lox bits – will look for them next time.  Sounds like a good thing to take to work.  Thanks. Wendy hypo…@aol.com

Response:

the Greeks have a wonderful cake that I can’t remember the name of that is chock full of walnuts and walnut flavor.]

Remembered it.   Karydthopita …. transliterally Wendy hypo…@aol.com

Response:

Wendy wrote: Karen wrote:

BTW – haven’t done the research yet, but was curious does anyone know if anyone makes walnut oil? I can’t recommend a brand, but yes, it’s a common ‘gourmet’ oil.

Have you ever used it?? Wendy hypo…@aol.com

Response:

Wendy asks:

BTW – haven’t done the research yet, but was curious does anyone know if anyone makes walnut oil?  Seems like it might be a good thing for sweet types of food since walnuts are a source of omega-3

Hain has made walnut oil for as long as I can remember. I first bought it in the 60s. It makes a very pleasant mayonnaise. Although it comes from walnuts, it’s very delicately flavored. Regards, vlhb…@aol.com

Response:

vlhb002 wrote:

Wendy asks: BTW – haven’t done the research yet, but was curious does anyone know if anyone makes walnut oil?  Seems like it might be a good thing for sweet types of food since walnuts are a source of omega-3 Hain has made walnut oil for as long as I can remember. I first bought it in the 60s. It makes a very pleasant mayonnaise. Although it comes from walnuts, it’s very delicately flavored.

Thanks, it’s now on my shopping list.  Various books recommend it when olive oil would not be appropriate and you want something more flavorful than a canola oil.  Also came across a review of a cookbook in my searchings where someone said they were  **tired** of all these recipes with olive oil, so I wanted to explore alternatives that would be as beneficial or better in some respects. Yesterday I was musing that walnut oil is probably a nice environmentally friendly crop (like olive oil, obviously).  Comes from trees which cleanse the air, probably requiring little fertilization, and no post harvest burning (except that they probably burn branches with their yearly pruning).  Do walnut trees only grow in certain types of climates?  Does anyone know? I know we have lots of groves in Northern California. Wondering where it might be good to use it as a substitute for butter or margarine in various recipes. Wendy hypo…@aol.com

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Pat Kight wrote:

Hypoint <hypo…@aol.com wrote: BTW – haven’t done the research yet, but was curious does anyone know if anyone makes walnut oil?  Seems like it might be a good thing for sweet types of food since walnuts are a source of omega-3.  [Just thinking about it makes thoughts of baklava run through my brain  ... and the Greeks have a wonderful cake that I can't remember the name of that is chock full of walnuts and walnut flavor.] Yes, walnut oil is available in trendy supermarkets and gourmet food departments. Pricey, but delicious. Buy it in small quantities — it goes rancid fairly fast. And it’s not just for sweets — walnut oil is a *great* substitute for olive oil in vinaigrette-type salad dressings!  One of my all-time favorite salads is a mixture of really fresh greens dressed with walnut oil and balsamic vinegar and sprinkled with chopped walnuts, diced fresh pears and blue cheese!

Sounds wonderful!!  Are pears still in season? This *research project* has certainly affected me.  I don’t think I will ever be the same again.  I am sitting here eating my salmon patty that I sort of poached in my stir fry of green beans and 3 colors of bell peppers (with lots of garlic).  Then I threw in a bunch of my mediterrean olives at the end.  It tastes so good. Can’t wait to get Karen’s walnut oil recipes.  I love walnuts.  And knowing that their fat is good for the brain is great. Wendy hypo…@aol.com

Response:

Hypoint wrote:

Yesterday I was musing that walnut oil is probably a nice environmentally friendly crop (like olive oil, obviously).  Comes from trees which cleanse the air, probably requiring little fertilization, and no post harvest burning

I thought walnut trees were the ones choked everything else out because of their high whatever (acidity?) so that nothing will grow under them. I know they’re the ones that shed so many leaves you are never done raking them.  I’m not sure how people friendly they are if they’re in your own back yard. Cool Runnings, HomemakerJ

Response:

In article <19981101023111.08075.00002…@ng39.aol.com

,

Hypoint <hypo…@aol.com

wrote: BTW – haven’t done the research yet, but was curious does anyone know if anyone makes walnut oil?  Seems like it might be a good thing for sweet types of food since walnuts are a source of omega-3.  [Just thinking about it makes thoughts of baklava run through my brain  ... and the Greeks have a wonderful cake that I can't remember the name of that is chock full of walnuts and walnut flavor.]

Yes, walnut oil is available in trendy supermarkets and gourmet food departments. Pricey, but delicious. Buy it in small quantities — it goes rancid fairly fast. And it’s not just for sweets — walnut oil is a *great* substitute for olive oil in vinaigrette-type salad dressings!  One of my all-time favorite salads is a mixture of really fresh greens dressed with walnut oil and balsamic vinegar and sprinkled with chopped walnuts, diced fresh pears and blue cheese! –Pat Kight kig…@peak.org

Response:

I strongly recommend to NOT TAKE KAVA.  I had a severe reaction where my throat closed off.  My husband did the heimlach maneuver. The pill was not stuck in my throat, but put my esophagous into spasms about 2 hrs. after I took it.  I know of someone else that had the same thing happen. I work with drs. and they have had several cases that arrived in ER.  It was also written up in a medical journal. This should be taken off the market.

HELLO FROM NANCY FROM FLORIDA

Response:

I wonder if this is what has caused my husband to have esophagus problems — severe — over the last few months?!!!  He started taking kava in July (lots of it) and, since September, has been to several doctors and the emergency room just this week because of this!  Thank you!  You may have helped diagnosed a major concern in our lives for the last two months!  He loves how the kava helps his tension, but maybe there’s an alternative.  Thank you so much for posting this information — it might help others, too!     n2…@webtv.net wrote in message <1704-363C76F…@newsd-133.iap.bryant.webtv.net

…

    I strongly recommend to NOT TAKE KAVA.  I had a severe reaction where my     throat closed off.  My husband did the heimlach maneuver. The pill was     not stuck in my throat, but put my esophagous into spasms about 2 hrs.     after I took it.  I know of someone else that had the same thing happen.     I work with drs. and they have had several cases that arrived in ER.  It     was also written up in a medical journal. This should be taken off the     market.

Response:

Karen Kay wrote in message <71ghna$n4…@samba.rahul.net

… Jane Weaver wrote…gingko seemed to worsen my bleeding and clotting. The info about gingko makes sense–that’s what it’s for! (To increase blood

flow.) I had read that it would act more like cayenne, increasing the blood flow while at the same time decreasing the clots.  Instead, it seemed to bring on the megaclots and also appeared to contribute to the hemmoraging that ensued.   I now agree wholeheartedly with vhlb — herbs are no more innocuous than prescription medicine, and need to be treated with the same caution. Medscape’s Women’s Health tends to have up-to-the-minute articles (I think the base site is also listed on vhlb’s links). http://www.medscape.com/Home/Topics/WomensHealth/womenshealth.html

Response:

Val,

Thanks also for all the food information!  Even though reading through it makes me hungry    :  )   Can’t wait to try the Tapenade!  Sounds yummy!

That’s the plan.   Get yourself a good vitamin / mineral supplement and take it regularly.  I like to take the more trendy type at Trader Joe’s or one of the warehouse stores. Normally they have more ’stuff’ in it reflecting recent research.   And keep reading the FOOD and RECIPE posts because I’m going to keep pursuing nummy delicious irresistible  ways to get the benefits that a lot of the supplements are targeting. BTW – haven’t done the research yet, but was curious does anyone know if anyone makes walnut oil?  Seems like it might be a good thing for sweet types of food since walnuts are a source of omega-3.  [Just thinking about it makes thoughts of baklava run through my brain  ... and the Greeks have a wonderful cake that I can't remember the name of that is chock full of walnuts and walnut flavor.] Wendy hypo…@aol.com

Response:

Jane Weaver wrote in message <71g9p4$cm…@autumn.news.rcn.net

… I was taking St. John’s wort, and also tried cranberry, kava kava, and

black

cohesh, as well as some other "menopausal" formulas I ran across.  I think the St. John’s wort did help mild mood swings, but gingko seemed to worsen my bleeding and clotting

Interesting!  My period came about at Day 23 the last time, and started with a flurry of small clots!  Usually they start out pretty light and then get into the clot thing in a day or so.  And I’ve been taking lots of gingko. And since I’ve been taking Gingko (about 3 months), I’ve had some awfully long periods  One lasted 11 days!  Thanks for this info.

The most helpful thing I’ve found, though, is really making an extra effort to eat a wide variety of whatever foods are in season, making sure I get plenty of exercise, and taking some supplements just to be sure of enough vitamins — especially chewable calcium (not Tums, which contain things I felt I don’t need).

I know I’m lacking in the water and exercise department.  From other posts I’ve read, not drinking enough water is probably a contributing factor to other difficulties.

I try to eat only virgin olive oil,   I continue to drink many herbal teas.  My favorites are Celestial Seasonings, not the specialty brands, although I experiment with everything.  I do think Sleepytime and Emperor’s Choice are the most relaxing, wonderful herbal concoctions I’ve found!  I also drink a lot of other Ginseng and green teas and love Royal jelly (especially the Korean variety).  Again, I feel they are calming.

Thanks to hubby (who’s a great and very particular cook), we always have virgin olive oil on hand.  And herbal and various green  teas, too — he’s a tea addict. Thanks for reminding me to make use of what’s readily available!  Gosh, I get so caught up in putting out fires and managing crises that I can’t even think of the obvious!  I’m going to make an effort to add your suggestions to the daily routine.  Will keep you posted, and you do the same — let us know how you’re doing. Val

Response:

Thanks again, everybody, for your insights and understanding when I posted earlier this week  You helped me through a really stressful week, and I really appreciate it. I know this has probably been discussed before, but what herbs/vitamins are good for our peri symptoms?  Seems like Gingko helps, but is there anything else?  Thought about trying the Kava kava again, but I don’t respond to it as dramatically as some people – unfortunately.  Took some Valerian compound yesterday and this morning, and think it helps some. Thanks also for all the food information!  Even though reading through it makes me hungry    :  )   Can’t wait to try the Tapenade!  Sounds yummy! Val

Response:

I was taking St. John’s wort, and also tried cranberry, kava kava, and black cohesh, as well as some other "menopausal" formulas I ran across.  I think the St. John’s wort did help mild mood swings, but gingko seemed to worsen my bleeding and clotting.  I really saw no real improvement with kava kava or black cohesh.  When the clots were not huge, cayenne clearly did break them up.  Cranberry may have helped.  I think oatmeal is the very best thing I’ve found for digestion, or Ralston.  With severe symptoms, I found that none of these things worked well, and did finally switch for health reasons to more traditional medicine. The most helpful thing I’ve found, though, is really making an extra effort to eat a wide variety of whatever foods are in season, making sure I get plenty of exercise, and taking some supplements just to be sure of enough vitamins — especially chewable calcium (not Tums, which contain things I felt I don’t need).  I felt that it really did make a difference in the moods after just a few weeks (I also try to get 2 cups of 1% milk or equivalent yogurt each day in addition).  I also think drinking lots more water than one would think is necessary has been the best dietary change I’ve made (about 8 cups).  My skin improved and female discomfort diminished markedly in only about a week after I started the water regimen. I try to eat only virgin olive oil, and if I *really* want butter or margarine, I occasionally whip real unsalted butter with olive oil into a soft spread (or canola oil, if it’s going to go on something with a delicate taste that olive oil could overpower).  I continue to drink many herbal teas.  My favorites are Celestial Seasonings, not the specialty brands, although I experiment with everything.  I do think Sleepytime and Emperor’s Choice are the most relaxing, wonderful herbal concoctions I’ve found!  I also drink a lot of other Ginseng and green teas and love Royal jelly (especially the Korean variety).  Again, I feel they are calming. Please let us know what you decide to try, and with what results! –Jane – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Valery wrote in message <71g0cr$…@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com

… Thanks again, everybody, for your insights and understanding when I posted earlier this week  You helped me through a really stressful week, and I really appreciate it. I know this has probably been discussed before, but what herbs/vitamins are good for our peri symptoms?  Seems like Gingko helps, but is there anything else?  Thought about trying the Kava kava again, but I don’t respond to it as dramatically as some people – unfortunately.  Took some Valerian

compound

yesterday and this morning, and think it helps some. Thanks also for all the food information!  Even though reading through it makes me hungry    :  )   Can’t wait to try the Tapenade!  Sounds yummy! Val

Response:

Valery asked about herbs: This is most emphatically *not* my bailiwick, as my eyes glaze over at the tincture recipes. But I understand from plenty of folks that the "gold standard" for herbal advice on menopause is _Menopausal Years_ by Susun Weed. Weed is quoted extensively in _Dr. Susan Love’s Hormone Book_, and by any number of other health care practitioners. You can find some of Weed’s recommendations  echoed in Love’s book, as noted…and in a truly hilarious online article, "Hotter than a Red-Assed Bee," whose URL escapes me at the moment, but there’s a link to it at http://members.tripod.com/menopause/ Probably the most important thing to remember about herbs, as I understand it, is that they’re not necessarily innocuous. It’s a good idea to read carefully and proceed with caution. For further information, see the web site of the American Botanical Council at http://www.herbalgram.org Regards, vlhb…@aol.com

Response:

Question:

  I usually wake up after 4 or 5 hours (usually to go to the bathroom), and can*t get back to sleep.  My doctor has me on Zoloft for anxiety and Trazadone for insomnia.  These help, but I don*t think he can find anything else wrong with me (I exercise, there*s no stress in my life, I don*t work shifts, I don*t do drugs, I feel great, etc).  Sometimes my mind races, and I can*t shut it off.  I*m afraid of more powerful drugs.  I*ve tried relaxation, but thought it was dumb.  My (ex)psychologist suggested computerized biofeedback.  (I*m dealing with the insurance now)  I D E A S ? T H A N K S

Response:

I tend to do that a lot too, but when I take a xanax before bed, I never wake up before I’m supposed to, and I have many very clear dreams that I always remember.  It’s a huge difference.  YMMV. -deb

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You just explained me to a TEE, unfortunately. I am on the Trazodone for day #3 now, and Zoloft for 3 years. I thought the Trazadone would be alot easier on me than it is. I am EXHAUSTED! I dont know whether my body is just making up for all the sleep deprivation all of this time or what, but I cannot wake-up all this weekend. I feel like I have been weighted down with bricks…I am questioning which is the lesser of two evils: staying up all night, having nightmares and twilight sleep when I can sleep, or this damned Trazadone. I am ready to call it quits to everything! Geesh! I find myself angry with everyone right now. I keep thinking my counsellor is good, helpful, knowledgeable… Okay, so why cant I seem to get better? Two and a half years ago of Zoloft I was about 90% panic free. Now, I am upping dosages, taking more meds, feeling like I am crazy, taking my frustration out on anyone within shouting distance (Including the jerk who had the AUDACITY to steal my parking spot!). I feel like I am on this constant spiral downward lately, and no matter how much I want to believe I am going to be on the "up" side, it doesnt happen. I had one small success recently, and even that isnt enough to help me. I am depressed, I cry at the drop of a hat… Tonight was so bad any slightest noise went straight for my spine and reverbarated (SP?) the whole way. Hard to have peace and quiet with little ones running aorund…My kids jokingly call me the grump now. It isnt funny any more. I dont enjoy anything, I dont want to go anywhere, I sit and cry, and that is all… Why bother going out? RIght now it is better to hide, which is scary- been there, done that– told myself I would never go down to that level again. My husband was always my biggest support person and now even he is losing his patience with me,… I dont understand how other people seem to handle this. Whats worse, the depression, the panic, the combonation of the two?… I am sick of hearing myself moan groan and complain. I find myself always apologising for being such a broken record….Good Lord, how much is my family supposed to take of me?? I dont know the answer to your question about stronger meds. I wanted to try something like Xanax or Ativan, but I was told no, they were too habit forming… What are we to do?? I havent a clue! When you find an answer, be sure to let me in on the secret, wont you???? Wishing you the best of luck!! — Miriam The Complainer    (These opinions are mine and mine alone… YMMV) It’s hard to make a comeback when you haven’t been anywhere.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   I usually wake up after 4 or 5 hours (usually to go to the bathroom), and can*t get back to sleep.  My doctor has me on Zoloft for anxiety and Trazadone for insomnia.  These help, but I don*t think he can find anything else wrong with me (I exercise, there*s no stress in my life, I don*t work shifts, I don*t do drugs, I feel great, etc).  Sometimes my mind races, and I can*t shut it off.  I*m afraid of more powerful drugs.     I*ve tried relaxation, but thought it was dumb.  My (ex)psychologist suggested computerized biofeedback.  (I*m dealing with the insurance now)  I D E A S ? T H A N K S

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  I usually wake up after 4 or 5 hours (usually to go to the bathroom), and can*t get back to sleep.  My doctor has me on Zoloft for anxiety and Trazadone for insomnia.  These help, but I don*t think he can find anything else wrong with me (I exercise, there*s no stress in my life, I don*t work shifts, I don*t do drugs, I feel great, etc).  Sometimes my mind races, and I can*t shut it off.  I*m afraid of more powerful drugs.  I*ve tried relaxation, but thought it was dumb.  My (ex)psychologist suggested computerized biofeedback.  (I*m dealing with the insurance now)  I D E A S ? T H A N K S

I think, if it were me, I’d go back to my doctor and have a complete review of my treatment. You don’t say whether it has been effective for your anxiety but, assuming it has been, there must be more effective sleeping aids s/he could give you. This ‘racing mind syndrome’ is something I suffer from too and it’s a swine, I know. I do find that a benzo knocks it right out, but I’m not sure whether I’d be willing to use one to do that on a very regular basis. Then again, sleep does seem to be quite dependent on patterns and habits so might it be that if you could re-establish a new sleeping pattern with occasional use of a benzo, that might help? Just a thought, FWIW — Gary Cooper

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I know how you feel.  I had the same problem for two months.  I have two pieces of advice for you. 1. set up a normal sleep time and stick to it. go to bed and wake at the same time every day.  I found this a real pain, since I would sometimes find myself lying in bed somewhere between asleep and wide awake for a couple of hours.  2.  Keep your house as cool as possible, this one really helps me.  It sucks when you get the electric bill, but I find the extra money worth it.  I believe the book that I read said between 60 and 70.  I keep mine at 70, at night. I am not saying that you still wont wake up to go to the bathroom (when you gotta go you gotta go!). What I am saying you should get a little more consistent about falling back to sleep. of course YMMV and IMO. This took me about a month or so, but it really helped. Good luck d – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   I usually wake up after 4 or 5 hours (usually to go to the bathroom), and can*t get back to sleep.  My doctor has me on Zoloft for anxiety and Trazadone for insomnia.  These help, but I don*t think he can find anything else wrong with me (I exercise, there*s no stress in my life, I don*t work shifts, I don*t do drugs, I feel great, etc).  Sometimes my mind races, and I can*t shut it off.  I*m afraid of more powerful drugs.     I*ve tried relaxation, but thought it was dumb.  My (ex)psychologist suggested computerized biofeedback.  (I*m dealing with the insurance now)  I D E A S ? T H A N K S

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  I usually wake up after 4 or 5 hours (usually to go to the bathroom), and can*t get back to sleep.  My doctor has me on Zoloft for anxiety and Trazadone for insomnia.  These help, but I don*t think he can find anything else wrong with me (I exercise, there*s no stress in my life, I don*t work shifts, I don*t do drugs, I feel great, etc).  Sometimes my mind races, and I can*t shut it off.  I*m afraid of more powerful drugs.  I*ve tried relaxation, but thought it was dumb.  My (ex)psychologist suggested computerized biofeedback.  (I*m dealing with the insurance now)  I D E A S ? T H A N K S

Used to have this problem until I started taking Klonopin (3mgs per day) and Xanax (.25 to 1 mg. per day) Now, I sleep very well. I rarely wake up before I am "supposed to". I alos no longer have nocturnal panic attacks, which had plagued me since I was 16 (38 now). The other benefit is that I was diagnosed withfibromyalgia a few years back. The symptoms are worse with interrupted sleep. I no longer have symptoms since being on the meds. I also have no side-effects from the meds. Best Wishes, Jen

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I’m afraid I can’t offer much advice but I can empathize with your experience. I sometimes wake up in the middle night with my stress meter fully pegged. It doesn’t sound like much, but I have found that if I concentrate on asking myself why I would need to feel so stressed I am able to eventually ease back down. josh   I usually wake up after 4 or 5 hours (usually to go to the bathroom), and can*t get back to sleep.  My doctor has me on Zoloft for anxiety and Trazadone for insomnia.  These help, but I don*t think he can find anything else wrong with me (I exercise, there*s no stress in my life, I don*t work shifts, I don*t do drugs, I feel great, etc).  Sometimes my mind races, and I can*t shut it off. — Gary Cooper

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In article <   I usually wake up after 4 or 5 hours (usually to go to the bathroom), and can*t get back to sleep.  My doctor has me on Zoloft for anxiety and Trazadone for insomnia.  These help, but I don*t think he can find anything else wrong with me (I exercise, there*s no stress in my life, I don*t work shifts, I don*t do drugs, I feel great, etc).  Sometimes my mind races, and I can*t shut it off.  I*m afraid of more powerful drugs.     I*ve tried relaxation, but thought it was dumb.  My (ex)psychologist suggested computerized biofeedback.  (I*m dealing with the insurance now)  I D E A S ? T H A N K S

This person’s an idiot-"I DONT DO DRUGS" – of course you do!-ZOLOFT/coffee and who knows how many wines/beers a week they consume, much less cigarettes!!!

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John, Not to be too dysphoric but some of us litle ole bipolars are smart enough to know the difference between depression and a CNS depressant. Amazing tho that may seem.

From the evidence of my eyes and memory, a lot of depressed people don’t. The information is probably news to someone reading it, old hat though it was to you. —          The opinions given above may be mine. They might also            just be what I feel like saying right now, okay?

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Can anyone tell me what the dangers are of taking Zoloft and alcohol together?  Is it just that the Zoloft may not be affective, or are there physical dangers? Well, Zoloft is an antidepressant. Alcohol is a CNS depressant. Your call. Danny

It is possible to have seizures and also strokes when combining alcohol and zoloft. TheDelser

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: OUCH! nothing more to say…;) : I’ve taken Zoloft for 3 years and drank for 3+ years.  Zoloft has helped, and has been therapeutic.  I no longer take Zoloft, but I still have my beers. will

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Ahcohol is a depressant, no matter what else you think about how good it  makes you feel. It interferes with you Zoloft. Carma – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Can anyone tell me what the dangers are of taking Zoloft and alcohol together?  Is it just that the Zoloft may not be affective, or are there physical dangers?

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Excellent response. I really wish someone had given me this advice before I got into it. SNIP Many to totally stupid and embarassing  things in public.

That would be me. This may get you taked about but not in a light you would like.

And how. The danger is that you don’t know what will happen.  For damn sure don’t have to plan on driving.  I went into a corn field one night on two Vodka martinis, sound asleep at the wheel.  They check for the level and it was only .15.  But the combination of that and my BP pills knocked my but out.

Okay, are you sure you mean .15? Legally drunk is .10, you know… Just checking. G. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -SNIP

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Can anyone tell me what the dangers are of taking Zoloft and alcohol together?  Is it just that the Zoloft may not be affective, or are there physical dangers?

Zoloft (sertraline) is an antidepressant; alcohol is a central nervous system depressant, so the expectation would likely be that drinking while depressed would not be helpful to recovery. This is not to say that an occasional sip of alcohol would hurt, but it is always wise to speak with your own physician about these drinking while on psychiatric medications. I no longer drink while taking medications. I used to. Didn’t help at all to drink, in fact made it worse, so I quit. -jim

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Can anyone tell me what the dangers are of taking Zoloft and alcohol together?  Is it just that the Zoloft may not be affective, or are there physical dangers?

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: Ahcohol is a depressant, no matter what else you think about how good : it  makes you feel. It interferes with you Zoloft.       The term "depressant", when used in reference to alcohol, means that it slows you down, NOT that it causes the condition known as "depression". Alcohol *CAN* be dangerous with zoloft; it can make you MUCH drowsier/drunker than you expect, and long term alcohol use *CAN* cause depression (not because it’s a "depressant", but because of other changes that heavy use of alcohol causes in your body)      But light drinking is fairly safe.  The reason you’re told to avoid alcohol on zoloft is because you don’t have carte blanche freedom to drink as much as you want.

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Hi all,  I’d like to mention an additional danger besides the one listed. Zoloft (as do ALL antidepressants) tends to lower the seizure threshold (i.e. make it easier to have a seizure) as does alcohol.  For most people this might not be a problem, but if you’re borderline seizure oriented, or especially overtired, be VERY careful of this combination.  I’d remind people as well, that this being cough/cold season, LIQUID nyquil is 50 proof or 25% alcohol.  Email welcome.  John Abeel — John Abeel, R.P.H. http://www.servtech.com/public/rxman " He who hath no scruples isn’t worth a dram " – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : John, : Not to be too dysphoric but some of us litle ole bipolars are smart : enough to know the difference between depression and a CNS depressant. : Amazing tho that may seem.      Why, then, didn’t you use the term "depressant" correctly in the following post that you made? : : Ahcohol is a depressant, no matter what else you think about how good : : it  makes you feel. It interferes with you Zoloft.

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While on ADs, the effects of alcohol on my system are unpredictable. I

The effects of alcohol on bipolar people, on AD or not, is unpredictable. |Home page:http://reality.sgi.com/employees/chokshi_clubfed/ |Silicon Graphics, Inc., voice: (301) 572-1678, fax: (301) 572-8778 |—Mortal, why doth thou live like thou art immortal?

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Can anyone tell me what the dangers are of taking Zoloft and alcohol together?  Is it just that the Zoloft may not be affective, or are there physical dangers?

Well, Zoloft is an antidepressant. Alcohol is a CNS depressant. Your call. Danny

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: It is possible to have seizures and also strokes when combining alcohol : and zoloft.      Strangely, this is NOT mentioned in any of the literature on zoloft. Care to substantiate this claim, oh ignoble bullshitter?

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John, Not to be too dysphoric but some of us litle ole bipolars are smart enough to know the difference between depression and a CNS depressant. Amazing tho that may seem. Carma – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : Ahcohol is a depressant, no matter what else you think about how good : it  makes you feel. It interferes with you Zoloft.       The term "depressant", when used in reference to alcohol, means that it slows you down, NOT that it causes the condition known as "depression". Alcohol *CAN* be dangerous with zoloft; it can make you MUCH drowsier/drunker than you expect, and long term alcohol use *CAN* cause depression (not because it’s a "depressant", but because of other changes that heavy use of alcohol causes in your body)      But light drinking is fairly safe.  The reason you’re told to avoid alcohol on zoloft is because you don’t have carte blanche freedom to drink as much as you want.

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Well let’s see perhaps it is just I’ve been studying the wrong books but the last time I checked all forms of ETOH were listed as major central nervous system depressants and the formula 1 CNSD + 1 CNSD still looks like too drugged to cogitate properly let alone breath. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : John, : Not to be too dysphoric but some of us litle ole bipolars are smart : enough to know the difference between depression and a CNS depressant. : Amazing tho that may seem.      Why, then, didn’t you use the term "depressant" correctly in the following post that you made? : : Ahcohol is a depressant, no matter what else you think about how good : : it  makes you feel. It interferes with you Zoloft.

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: John, : Not to be too dysphoric but some of us litle ole bipolars are smart : enough to know the difference between depression and a CNS depressant. : Amazing tho that may seem.      Why, then, didn’t you use the term "depressant" correctly in the following post that you made? : : Ahcohol is a depressant, no matter what else you think about how good : : it  makes you feel. It interferes with you Zoloft.

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OUCH! nothing more to say…;)

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Zoloft affects Serotonin, while alcohol affects GABA transmission and recption.  Unless there’s effects we’re not aware of.

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Can anyone tell me what the dangers are of taking Zoloft and alcohol together?  Is it just that the Zoloft may not be affective, or are there physical dangers?

You may get drunk a LOT faster. Then again, you may not. Charlie’s Sneaker Pages: http://sneakers.pair.com/ Best Value in Airplanes: http://www.boeing.com/

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