Question:

: : I just recieved a nebuliser to help me with this bronchitis I have.  This : is my third case since fall.  It is like I get over one case of it and : then walk right into another one.  This time the flu turned into : bronchitis.  Then my lungs dried out.  I was coughing up hard mucus.  This : hurt real bad. [snip] : : shown.  Also, for the thick mucous, drink plenty of water.  This is your : best friend.  The water keeps the secretions hydrated so you can bring them : up easier and decrease your chances of continuous infections.  Thick : mucous can lead to mucous plugging, leading to worse problems than : bronchitis.  Ask the doctor about an expectorant to help along with the : water.  If you are having continous bouts of infection, chances are it is : being set off from an allergic reaction to something.  Have you come : in contact with something new?  Might want to go see an allergist, or : if you have a HMO dr., insist that he refer you to one.  Find out now to : get a better handle on this. :          Good Luck,   Donna Another potential hint for the thick mucus:  use a humidifier of some sort, particularly at night – that might help keep things moist.  YMMV on this, of course – I found that humid air is harder to breathe, even when I’m sick, though for some reason a hot shower helps without bothering me. And make sure to clean/disinfect the humidifier regularly to prevent growth of mold/bacteria. …Marie and ‘Fang’ (Joey) 8/13/94… …He’s learned to climb – the end of Life As We Know It!  Aiiigggghhhhh!

Response:

I just recieved a nebuliser to help me with this bronchitis I have.  This is my third case since fall.  It is like I get over one case of it and then walk right into another one.  This time the flu turned into bronchitis.  Then my lungs dried out.  I was coughing up hard mucus.  This hurt real bad. I want to ad that I love my neb.  It is a pain in the butt to clean it, but I have been consistent.  I feel much better after using it(much better than the albuterol cannister).  I was on it every 4 hours at first.  Now I am on it just 3 times a day or as needed.  For awhile if felt like I was tied to the nebuliser!  I added up the time spent using and cleaning it (15 minutes every use).  I spent close to 1-2 hours a day getting to know that machine.

First of all.  There is no need to clean the nebulizer chamber after each treatment.  Every two days is sufficient, as studies have shown.  Also, for the thick mucous, drink plenty of water.  This is your best friend.  The water keeps the secretions hydrated so you can bring them up easier and decrease your chances of continuous infections.  Thick mucous can lead to mucous plugging, leading to worse problems than bronchitis.  Ask the doctor about an expectorant to help along with the water.  If you are having continous bouts of infection, chances are it is being set off from an allergic reaction to something.  Have you come in contact with something new?  Might want to go see an allergist, or if you have a HMO dr., insist that he refer you to one.  Find out now to get a better handle on this.          Good Luck,   Donna

Response:

I just recieved a nebuliser to help me with this bronchitis I have.  This is my third case since fall.  It is like I get over one case of it and then walk right into another one.  This time the flu turned into bronchitis.  Then my lungs dried out.  I was coughing up hard mucus.  This hurt real bad. This really stinks(except I lost a pant size on the flu diet).  I am trying to keep a good mental outlook but it is hard as I watch the dollars fly out of my pocket!  Ha. I want to ad that I love my neb.  It is a pain in the butt to clean it, but I have been consistent.  I feel much better after using it(much better than the albuterol cannister).  I was on it every 4 hours at first.  Now I am on it just 3 times a day or as needed.  For awhile if felt like I was tied to the nebuliser!  I added up the time spent using and cleaning it (15 minutes every use).  I spent close to 1-2 hours a day getting to know that machine.   I have been on Biaxin for almost 7 days now and I am still coughing up GAK.  Anyone have any suggestions for me?  Have any of you had bronchitis this bad?  I am just so thankful it wasn’t a Pneumonia diagnosis.  I have heard about that hell. Thanks in advance for any support or input!   Suz in Arizona(gagging and huffing, oh well people leave me alone when I shop at least! Ha.)

Response:

After a bad cold I think I might have bronchitis, which feels different than my usual asthma.  Can anyone tell me what bronchitis feels like? Do you have to have a fever?  Do antibiotics help?  Is there a test or something?  There is this "spot" I feel where I wheeze.  Cough is no longer productive. Any experience out there?  It’s still here 3 wks leter…

Antibiotics help if the bronchitis is caused by bacteria but not for virus. If you are still wheezing or your Peak Flow is below 80% of Personal Best, you may not be taking enough long-acting preventor meds like inhaled steroids. Here’s my links on bronchitis to research: http://www.vh.org/Beyond/PeerReviews/31Bronchitis.html Virtual Hospital,    Bronchitis http://www.familyinternet.com/peds/top/000124.htm  Acute Bronchitis http://www.njc.org/MFhtml/URI_MF.html  URI (Colds) &  Acute Bronchitis http://www.njc.org/PRhtml/!k_bronc.htm  Chronic Bronchitis http://www.charm.net/~epi1/mycoplas.htm  Mycoplasma http://www.sk.sympatico.ca/Contents/Health/REV_HTML/R7738.html Bronchitis    Resources http://www.springnet.com/ce/j701as1.htm Table. Causative Organisms     of Acute Bronchitis http://www.njc.org/MFhtml/RDE_MF.html Resources for COPD  (Chronic Bronchitis, Emphysema)

Question:

I don’t know if it is because of Advair or not, but my father went into V-Fib 1 month after taking advair. He was very happy with the way he felt being on Advair, but never mentioned anything about the warnings. I just noticed that the warnings say that Advair can change heart rhythm.  That is exactly what happened to my father.  He never had heart problems before, in fact, his Dr has commented before that he has a very strong heart. I’m not sure where to go with this.  I just want to make sure that everyone takes these warnings seriously. Please be careful.  Having this happen to my father has been very difficult. Dave

Response:

It may have been a cumulative effect was he taking something else before Advair. Many asthma sufferers take a form of steroids and albuterol and heart problems are frequent. My best wishes to you and your family and thanks for a difficult reminder. Lane

Response:

Your comments can be true.  However, since being on Advair, he hasn’t used his inhaler, and he hasn’t taken prednisone for quite some time. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It may have been a cumulative effect was he taking something else before Advair. Many asthma sufferers take a form of steroids and albuterol and heart problems are frequent. My best wishes to you and your family and thanks for a difficult reminder. Lane

Response:

It is always difficult to know if a drug side effect is responsible or not. The PDR lists the same 101 side effects for every drug. While I was takng "anyoldmycin" my stocks plunged, my car wouldn’t start and I cut myself shaving. Was all this caused by "anyoldmycin"? Unfortunately it takes a very long time to decide which – if any – ofthe 101 side effects are "real" and requires withdrawal of a medication. The ingredients in Advair are quite common ones and seem to help many persons. Murray Grossan, M.D. http://www.ent-consult.com http://www.TinnitusRelief.net http://www.emedicine.com/ent/topic516.htm

Response:

Many people find Advair and Flovent disagreeable immedeiately.  So they switch to Pulmicort, which, conversely, is not for everyone.  These two are both powerful and effective steroids. Address:http://www.consumerlawpage.com/article/asthma.shtml Changed:9:56 PM on Friday, November 8, 2002

Response:

Question:

I know that there has to be others on RAB that have asthma, take inhaled steroids and get tattooed.   I am new to the asthma thing, started taking Flovent in Dec. Anyway, some of it’s side effects are thinning of the skin, depleting the body of potassium, and bruising.. I take potassium for leg cramps due to this sometimes, but not on a regular basis. Got 3 hs of tattoo work yesterday on my arm and am very bruised.  It started showing up an hr after the tattoo.  I KNOW this is the med. so please don’t fault the dear artist who was very light handed as I told him of the possibility of this.  I am just kinda shocked that it is this extensive and am concerned that this med is destroying me inside out… the questions: Any tattoo artists with experience with this?  Seen it before? Any asthma peoples with experiences similar and  any suggestions?   My thought is to take my potassium regularly (we have lots more work to do) and hope for the best. Wish I could just quit the meds but I gotta breathe. Tattoo Artists:  If ya see inhaled steroids on a release form for medications your customer is taking let them know there is a possibility of bruising.  Altho they may already know this from how easily they bruise anyway…. Emily Tessier Under The Surface

Response:

I know that there has to be others on RAB that have asthma, take inhaled steroids and get tattooed. I am new to the asthma thing, started taking Flovent in Dec. Anyway, some of it’s side effects are thinning of the skin, depleting the body of potassium, and bruising..

I use a similar product, Pulmicort, and have never experienced such side effects! I actually did a search on Flovent but didn’t find any extensive listings of possible side effects… I know I’ve never heard of these side effects concerning Pulmicort, and I have read a lot about it. I like to know what I’m doing to my body! Perhaps you could talk to your doctor about switching to Pulmicort, if this would alleviate your problems? Ulf

Response:

I know that there has to be others on RAB that have asthma, take inhaled steroids and get tattooed. I am new to the asthma thing, started taking Flovent in Dec. Anyway, some of it’s side effects are thinning of the skin, depleting the body of potassium, and bruising..

Did your doctor tell you this? Those would be side effects of steroids administered systemically (not sure about the bruising though, I’ll look it up), not topically. From http://www.rxmed.com/monographs/flovent.html: "Fluticasone is a highly potent glucocorticoid anti-inflammatory steroid with strong topical and negligible systemic activity. When administered by inhalation at therapeutic dosages, it has a direct potent anti-inflammatory action within the lungs, resulting in reduced symptoms and exacerbations of asthma without the adverse effects observed when corticosteroids are administered systemically. (…) A portion of an inhaled dose will be swallowed; however, oral bioavailability of fluticasone approaches zero due to poor absorption and extensive first-pass metabolism. Following oral administration, 87 to 100% of the dose is excreted in the feces (…) Adverse Effects: No major side effects attributable to the use of fluticasone have been reported. (…) Candidiasis: Therapeutic dosages frequently cause the appearance of C. albicans (thrush) in the mouth and throat." This means that the fluticasone you inhale does not enter the bloodstream, and that what you swallow is not taken up to an extent that could cause systemic side effects. There must be a different reason for the bruising. I think you should talk to your doc about this. I checked a German drug reference and it said the same things. I take potassium for leg cramps due to this sometimes, but not on a regular basis.

Leg cramps are often associated with magnesium deficiency also. Nina — http://members.xoom.com/critterwoman Seeing that water is so important for life, it has to be a decision by an intelligent being to make water from H2O and not Oil from H2O.      -from alt.atheism.satire

Response:

hmm, I’m asthmatic, tattooed, and until Thursday, had never bruised. I thought my bruising was caused because it is an arm opiece, and the skin on the inner arm is more delicate…also because my arm is a _little_ flabby (lol) and the tattooist had to hold the skin taut….oh well.. carmen (with a beautiful new tattoo on her flabby arm.)xxx — "I feel much better now that I’ve abandoned all hope". – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I know that there has to be others on RAB that have asthma, take inhaled steroids and get tattooed. I am new to the asthma thing, started taking Flovent in Dec. Anyway, some of it’s side effects are thinning of the skin, depleting the body of potassium, and bruising.. Did your doctor tell you this? Those would be side effects of steroids administered systemically (not sure about the bruising though, I’ll look it up), not topically. From http://www.rxmed.com/monographs/flovent.html: "Fluticasone is a highly potent glucocorticoid anti-inflammatory steroid with strong topical and negligible systemic activity. When administered by inhalation at therapeutic dosages, it has a direct potent anti-inflammatory action within the lungs, resulting in reduced symptoms and exacerbations of asthma without the adverse effects observed when corticosteroids are administered systemically. (…) A portion of an inhaled dose will be swallowed; however, oral bioavailability of fluticasone approaches zero due to poor absorption and extensive first-pass metabolism. Following oral administration, 87 to 100% of the dose is excreted in the feces (…) Adverse Effects: No major side effects attributable to the use of fluticasone have been reported. (…) Candidiasis: Therapeutic dosages frequently cause the appearance of C. albicans (thrush) in the mouth and throat." This means that the fluticasone you inhale does not enter the bloodstream, and that what you swallow is not taken up to an extent that could cause systemic side effects. There must be a different reason for the bruising. I think you should talk to your doc about this. I checked a German drug reference and it said the same things. I take potassium for leg cramps due to this sometimes, but not on a regular basis. Leg cramps are often associated with magnesium deficiency also. Nina — http://members.xoom.com/critterwoman Seeing that water is so important for life, it has to be a decision by an intelligent being to make water from H2O and not Oil from H2O.      -from alt.atheism.satire

Response:

Your asthma inhaler should not cause you all this harm. I have been on soo many asthma meds, and never a problem like that. I take a pill to, this pill is called singulair (so far has proven itself to be the best controller). This pill makes the body produce less phlegm, and has no steroid properties. I also do asthmacort, and Proventil HFA. all of these are good, and I have never had problems like that. I do infact have problems w the IV steroids, but that is so different. Please ask your doc if you could try the non steroidal pill… it works wonderz! — "~LOBE

Question:

I need some help/advise. Heres my story. I am reposting it again to make sure everyone reads this. And maybe SOMEONE can help me. here goes… hello. I am a 23 yr old male, married, with 2 kids. I have come to the conclusion that i may be suffering from a major mental sickness, well, i know i am, but i just dont know which one. I have been put on anti depressents but they dont work. But, i have never told anyone of all my symptoms, and have never heard of anyone else having them and feel like i am all alone. I could really use some feedback. ass normal symptoms of depression, but you;’ll see some disturbing ones that are MORE than depresiion. 1.Wild mood swings, depression to almost on a high, can happen several times in a day. one minute i can feel like i am better than everyone, and next, i can feel that everyone is better than me. and i am shit. 2.Weight loss and gain. 3.moods go with weather, when it rains i feel more confident and happy, when its sunny, i feel like shit. this isnt always the case, but alot of the time 4. sometimes hyper, sometimes lazy 5. uncomfortable around people who i think are more attractive than me, or people my own age 6. fear that everyone is looking at me, and feer of embarassment, EXTREME fear of talking in front of more than a couple people. 7.Sometimes dont wanna leave the house and i dont know why… it’s like i wanna leave but cant. 8. get chest pains and think i am dying….. 9. dangerous and spontaneous behavior, like reckless driving, gambling 10. when i know i have to be still, i tremer uncontrolably… like when someone is watching me do something with my hands, they will go OUT of CONTROL. even when i am getting a haircut, if i know they are cutting like my baings or sides, and i KNOW my head has to stay still, it will jerk  really fast, and my neck muscles will tighten up, and then my head will like tremer. 11. sometimes very weird thoughts, and like someone is running me down inside my head. like calling me a fuck up and stuff like that. 12. sometimes i feel uncomfortable around my closest freinds, and dont know what to say… and have to leave. 13. cant do anything in front of anyone except close friends or family, like type, or even hold my hands steady, etc. 14. I find myself in these very weird moods where I feel like someone else 15. marijuana makes everything worse most the time. dont do it anymore. but once i was talking to myself out loud on it, and thought the devil was inside my head, and weird stuff like that. i was told it’s depression and social phobia, but i think it has to be more. have been put on, paxil, prozac, effexor, none work and gives me sexual side effects. Right now i am on nuerontin for my panic symptoms and a mood stabalizor, nuthing for depression because it doesnt work, and xanax for extreme panic, but i save my xanax for like haircuts, or first days on jobs. If i take like 3mg xanax(big dose) before my haircut, it’s not as bad, but it’s still there. Xanax has helped me the most so far, but i am becoming too dependent on it. I mean, who has to take xanax so there head dont shake for a haircut? Or say they can control their hands from shanking uncontollably when doing a job in front of someone. especially in that high of dose. a small dose has never worked for me. I feel helpless, and almost dead in a way. my family or freinds dont know about this, and has been gradually getting worse since the age of around 17 i beleieve. i would like to go back to school, but I would rather take a bullet to the head, than have to recite a speech in front of people. Xanax couldnt even help me there. I am so scared and confused. Its very hard for me to make friends too because of this. I am beggining to think that its some sort of manic symptoms, but dont know. have been to mental health sites, but cant find any kinda disease about the UNCONTOLLABLE shakes and tremers. I welcome all replies, and hope someone has been thru this and made it. Have had some thoughts of suicide, but would never do it, there no way cause of my kids, and i’d just be way to scared and the damage it would do to my family. someone please help me. have been to shrinks, but havent told them everything, probably wont. I just want honest replies and maybe someone knows whats wrng with me. Please help me, i pray to god every night for help, maybe i will find it here. Thanks! and also, and opinions on the meds i am currently taking? I will go now! PEACE!!!!!!!

Response:

I’d say you got manic bi-polar depression or just a case of bi-polar II, maybe some seasonal depression, Social aniexty/panic disorder…. not sure though but it seems you fall into that area.. I have the same symtoms like you said you got, except I was very shy and quiet, and didn’t have as bad of panic attacks.. I feel the same shit, just not as bad.. I take 0.5mg Xanax 3 times a day and 40mg Celexa once a day and I feel normal, like I never felt before… I been on Depakote 500mg twice a day for about 6 months then I stopped it because it made me lazy, and even after I stopped it, my manic side was still somewhat dead. That was about 8 months ago, and I still feel great now. I found nothing to kill my shyness, until I found Dextromethorphan  I wanted to get high on something, marijuana just made me act stupid and makes you think about your problems too much and you get all down from that..   So I read on the net, Robotussin Maximum Strenght Cough , one 4oz bottle only contains about Dextromethorphan HBr 355mg as the active ingredent.  My first time I chugged down the whole 4oz at once, within a hour I started to feel the effects of the DXM. It was nothing like marijuana, but it’s more up into the area with LSD, depends on the dose you take. After about 8 hours the high was almost gone, and I went to sleep.. The next 2 weeks after that, just being on my regular medication and not redosing the DXM, I felt like a new person. My shyness was almost totally gone, I could talk to people without mumbling and even keep a good convosation going without shyness or panic or worrying how I am acting.. I regularly use DXM now, just about twice a month, at a dose of about 600mg.. I have done all the way up to 1.1g to see the effects. It’s non addictive, maybe mildly "mentally" addictive for some. My point is here, I spent so much money on all different kinds of mental drugs for shyness, aniexty and depression, and all I needed was a bottle of Robitussin for $4.95.. Amazing stuff, it even cleared all the acne from my face. (19/male) Now I am about to start college soon, I am going for a good degree from a univeristy for Chemistry, and maybe into Bio-chem too.            -shroomy/Rob

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I need some help/advise. Heres my story. I am reposting it again to make sure everyone reads this. And maybe SOMEONE can help me. here goes… hello. I am a 23 yr old male, married, with 2 kids. I have come to the conclusion that i may be suffering from a major mental sickness, well, i know i am, but i just dont know which one. I have been put on anti depressents but they dont work. But, i have never told anyone of all my symptoms, and have never heard of anyone else having them and feel like i am all alone. I could really use some feedback. ass normal symptoms of depression, but you;’ll see some disturbing ones that are MORE than depresiion. 1.Wild mood swings, depression to almost on a high, can happen several times in a day. one minute i can feel like i am better than everyone, and next, i can feel that everyone is better than me. and i am shit. 2.Weight loss and gain. 3.moods go with weather, when it rains i feel more confident and happy, when its sunny, i feel like shit. this isnt always the case, but alot of the time 4. sometimes hyper, sometimes lazy 5. uncomfortable around people who i think are more attractive than me, or people my own age 6. fear that everyone is looking at me, and feer of embarassment, EXTREME fear of talking in front of more than a couple people. 7.Sometimes dont wanna leave the house and i dont know why… it’s like i wanna leave but cant. 8. get chest pains and think i am dying….. 9. dangerous and spontaneous behavior, like reckless driving, gambling 10. when i know i have to be still, i tremer uncontrolably… like when someone is watching me do something with my hands, they will go OUT of CONTROL. even when i am getting a haircut, if i know they are cutting like my baings or sides, and i KNOW my head has to stay still, it will jerk  really fast, and my neck muscles will tighten up, and then my head will like tremer. 11. sometimes very weird thoughts, and like someone is running me down inside my head. like calling me a fuck up and stuff like that. 12. sometimes i feel uncomfortable around my closest freinds, and dont know what to say… and have to leave. 13. cant do anything in front of anyone except close friends or family, like type, or even hold my hands steady, etc. 14. I find myself in these very weird moods where I feel like someone else 15. marijuana makes everything worse most the time. dont do it anymore. but once i was talking to myself out loud on it, and thought the devil was inside my head, and weird stuff like that. i was told it’s depression and social phobia, but i think it has to be more. have been put on, paxil, prozac, effexor, none work and gives me sexual side effects. Right now i am on nuerontin for my panic symptoms and a mood stabalizor, nuthing for depression because it doesnt work, and xanax for extreme panic, but i save my xanax for like haircuts, or first days on jobs. If i take like 3mg xanax(big dose) before my haircut, it’s not as bad, but it’s still there. Xanax has helped me the most so far, but i am becoming too dependent on it. I mean, who has to take xanax so there head dont shake for a haircut? Or say they can control their hands from shanking uncontollably when doing a job in front of someone. especially in that high of dose. a small dose has never worked for me. I feel helpless, and almost dead in a way. my family or freinds dont know about this, and has been gradually getting worse since the age of around 17 i beleieve. i would like to go back to school, but I would rather take a bullet to the head, than have to recite a speech in front of people. Xanax couldnt even help me there. I am so scared and confused. Its very hard for me to make friends too because of this. I am beggining to think that its some sort of manic symptoms, but dont know. have been to mental health sites, but cant find any kinda disease about the UNCONTOLLABLE shakes and tremers. I welcome all replies, and hope someone has been thru this and made it. Have had some thoughts of suicide, but would never do it, there no way cause of my kids, and i’d just be way to scared and the damage it would do to my family. someone please help me. have been to shrinks, but havent told them everything, probably wont. I just want honest replies and maybe someone knows whats wrng with me. Please help me, i pray to god every night for help, maybe i will find it here. Thanks! and also, and opinions on the meds i am currently taking? I will go now! PEACE!!!!!!!

Response:

Path: lobby!ngtf-m01.news.aol.com!portc01.blue.aol.com!howland.erols.net!newshu

b2.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc1.ne.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Newsgroups: alt.support.depression.medication Lines: 98 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.22.162.6 X-Trace: news1.rdc1.ne.home.com 1002821635 24.22.162.6 (Thu, 11 Oct 2001 10:33:55 PDT) I need some help/advise. Heres my story. I am reposting it again to make sure everyone reads this. And maybe SOMEONE can help me. here goes… hello. I am a 23 yr old male, married, with 2 kids. I have come to the conclusion that i may be suffering from a major mental sickness, well, i know i am, but i just dont know which one. I have been put on anti depressents but they dont work. But, i have never told anyone of all my symptoms, and have never heard of anyone else having them and feel like i am all alone. I could really use some feedback. ass normal symptoms of depression, but you;’ll see some disturbing ones that are MORE than depresiion. 1.Wild mood swings, depression to almost on a high, can happen several times in a day. one minute i can feel like i am better than everyone, and next, i can feel that everyone is better than me. and i am shit. 2.Weight loss and gain. 3.moods go with weather, when it rains i feel more confident and happy, when its sunny, i feel like shit. this isnt always the case, but alot of the time 4. sometimes hyper, sometimes lazy 5. uncomfortable around people who i think are more attractive than me, or people my own age 6. fear that everyone is looking at me, and feer of embarassment, EXTREME fear of talking in front of more than a couple people. 7.Sometimes dont wanna leave the house and i dont know why… it’s like i wanna leave but cant. 8. get chest pains and think i am dying….. 9. dangerous and spontaneous behavior, like reckless driving, gambling 10. when i know i have to be still, i tremer uncontrolably… like when someone is watching me do something with my hands, they will go OUT of CONTROL. even when i am getting a haircut, if i know they are cutting like my baings or sides, and i KNOW my head has to stay still, it will jerk  really fast, and my neck muscles will tighten up, and then my head will like tremer. 11. sometimes very weird thoughts, and like someone is running me down inside my head. like calling me a fuck up and stuff like that. 12. sometimes i feel uncomfortable around my closest freinds, and dont know what to say… and have to leave. 13. cant do anything in front of anyone except close friends or family, like type, or even hold my hands steady, etc. 14. I find myself in these very weird moods where I feel like someone else 15. marijuana makes everything worse most the time. dont do it anymore. but once i was talking to myself out loud on it, and thought the devil was inside my head, and weird stuff like that. i was told it’s depression and social phobia, but i think it has to be more. have been put on, paxil, prozac, effexor, none work and gives me sexual side effects. Right now i am on nuerontin for my panic symptoms and a mood stabalizor, nuthing for depression because it doesnt work, and xanax for extreme panic, but i save my xanax for like haircuts, or first days on jobs. If i take like 3mg xanax(big dose) before my haircut, it’s not as bad, but it’s still there. Xanax has helped me the most so far, but i am becoming too dependent on it. I mean, who has to take xanax so there head dont shake for a haircut? Or say they can control their hands from shanking uncontollably when doing a job in front of someone. especially in that high of dose. a small dose has never worked for me. I feel helpless, and almost dead in a way. my family or freinds dont know about this, and has been gradually getting worse since the age of around 17 i beleieve. i would like to go back to school, but I would rather take a bullet to the head, than have to recite a speech in front of people. Xanax couldnt even help me there. I am so scared and confused. Its very hard for me to make friends too because of this. I am beggining to think that its some sort of manic symptoms, but dont know. have been to mental health sites, but cant find any kinda disease about the UNCONTOLLABLE shakes and tremers. I welcome all replies, and hope someone has been thru this and made it. Have had some thoughts of suicide, but would never do it, there no way cause of my kids, and i’d just be way to scared and the damage it would do to my family. someone please help me. have been to shrinks, but havent told them everything, probably wont. I just want honest replies and maybe someone knows whats wrng with me. Please help me, i pray to god every night for help, maybe i will find it here. Thanks! and also, and opinions on the meds i am currently taking? I will go now! PEACE!!!!!!!

the fact you are on mood stablizers…and an AP   rather than neurontic…is indicative your doctors are way awead of you   perhaps they dx’d you as bipolar II or classic manic depression but didnt tell you or something? they do that if they dont think the patient can handle it…or if you have a good job, and insurance…that you might lose if dxd as bipolar…etc.. yes, – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

    I’m piggybacking on this post because I never saw the original.  Have you ever described all of these symptoms to a doctor?  I don’t want to try to "diagnose" you but I will say that when a disorder goes undiagnosed for a long time a lot of complications can come out of it.  I had anxiety disorder and depression (still do, I guess) at age 16 and had probably had them since I was about 12.  What prompted me to get help was that the panic attacks started scaring me quite badly and I absolutely would not go out in public – at first I’d cross the street to avoid people looking at me, then I’d walk instead of taking the bus, then I stopped going to school because I was having panic attacks constantly.  Being 16 and never treated I had no idea what was wrong with me and I was sure I was just plain CRAZY.  I got help after refusing to leave my house for 2 months straight.     Anyway, all I’m trying to say is that I’m sure the symptoms are as horrible as you describe, but they probably don’t indicate any horrible dreadful untreatable disease, most likely the result of living with them for a time and paying a lot of attention to them.  Get yourself to a doctor and remember, antidepressants do take some time to work.  You shouldn’t have to take that much Xanax to stop shaking in public but if you get treatment and "start small" you might find that your anxiety eases up over time and eventually you’ll be able to handle those situations.  A word on the Xanax – it’s quite addictive and when you’re done with it you need to taper off slowly if you’ve been taking it on a regular (daily, every other day) basis or you’ll have the weirdest symptoms ever and you might not know what’s going on (and think you’re going crazy – just what you need, right?).     For what it’s worth, I still have the occasional, very occasional, panic attack but it’s been 14 years since I first started getting treatment for them and have learned to "manage" them.  I have trouble now comprehending how terrifying it used to be for me to sit on a bus on a "sideways" seat, you know where you look into the aisle at all the other people?  There are a lot of things I couldn’t do back then that I mostly just take for granted now. Get help, and be honest with your doctor about ALL the symptoms.    Best of luck to you,         Liz B

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’d say you got manic bi-polar depression or just a case of bi-polar II, maybe some seasonal depression, Social aniexty/panic disorder…. not sure though but it seems you fall into that area.. I have the same symtoms like you said you got, except I was very shy and quiet, and didn’t have as bad of panic attacks.. I feel the same shit, just not as bad.. I take 0.5mg Xanax 3 times a day and 40mg Celexa once a day and I feel normal, like I never felt before… I been on Depakote 500mg twice a day for about 6 months then I stopped it because it made me lazy, and even after I stopped it, my manic side was still somewhat dead. That was about 8 months ago, and I still feel great now. I found nothing to kill my shyness, until I found Dextromethorphan  I wanted to get high on something, marijuana just made me act stupid and makes you think about your problems too much and you get all down from that.. So I read on the net, Robotussin Maximum Strenght Cough , one 4oz bottle only contains about Dextromethorphan HBr 355mg as the active ingredent.  My first time I chugged down the whole 4oz at once, within a hour I started to feel the effects of the DXM. It was nothing like marijuana, but it’s more up into the area with LSD, depends on the dose you take. After about 8 hours the high was almost gone, and I went to sleep.. The next 2 weeks after that, just being on my regular medication and not redosing the DXM, I felt like a new person. My shyness was almost totally gone, I could talk to people without mumbling and even keep a good convosation going without shyness or panic or worrying how I am acting.. I regularly use DXM now, just about twice a month, at a dose of about 600mg.. I have done all the way up to 1.1g to see the effects. It’s non addictive, maybe mildly "mentally" addictive for some. My point is here, I spent so much money on all different kinds of mental drugs for shyness, aniexty and depression, and all I needed was a bottle of Robitussin for $4.95.. Amazing stuff, it even cleared all the acne from my face. (19/male) Now I am about to start college soon, I am going for a good degree from a univeristy for Chemistry, and maybe into Bio-chem too.            -shroomy/Rob I need some help/advise. Heres my story. I am reposting it again to make sure everyone reads this. And maybe SOMEONE can help me. here goes… hello. I am a 23 yr old male, married, with 2 kids. I have come to the conclusion that i may be suffering from a major mental sickness, well, i know i am, but i just dont know which one. I have been put on anti depressents but they dont work. But, i have never told anyone of all my symptoms, and have never heard of anyone else having them and feel like i am all alone. I could really use some feedback. half ass normal symptoms of depression, but you;’ll see some disturbing ones that are MORE than depresiion. 1.Wild mood swings, depression to almost on a high, can happen several times in a day. one minute i can feel like i am better than everyone, and next, i can feel that everyone is better than me. and i am shit. 2.Weight loss and gain. 3.moods go with weather, when it rains i feel more confident and happy, when its sunny, i feel like shit. this isnt always the case, but alot of the time 4. sometimes hyper, sometimes lazy 5. uncomfortable around people who i think are more attractive than me, or people my own age 6. fear that everyone is looking at me, and feer of embarassment, EXTREME fear of talking in front of more than a couple people. 7.Sometimes dont wanna leave the house and i dont know why… it’s like i wanna leave but cant. 8. get chest pains and think i am dying….. 9. dangerous and spontaneous behavior, like reckless driving, gambling 10. when i know i have to be still, i tremer uncontrolably… like when someone is watching me do something with my hands, they will go OUT of CONTROL. even when i am getting a haircut, if i know they are cutting like my baings or sides, and i KNOW my head has to stay still, it will jerk  really fast, and my neck muscles will tighten up, and then my head will like tremer. 11. sometimes very weird thoughts, and like someone is running me down inside my head. like calling me a fuck up and stuff like that. 12. sometimes i feel uncomfortable around my closest freinds, and dont know what to say… and have to leave. 13. cant do anything in front of anyone except close friends or family, like type, or even hold my hands steady, etc. 14. I find myself in these very weird moods where I feel like someone else 15. marijuana makes everything worse most the time. dont do it anymore. but once i was talking to myself out loud on it, and thought the devil was inside my head, and weird stuff like that. i was told it’s depression and social phobia, but i think it has to be more. have been put on, paxil, prozac, effexor, none work and gives me sexual side effects. Right now i am on nuerontin for my panic symptoms and a mood stabalizor, nuthing for depression because it doesnt work, and xanax for extreme panic, but i save my xanax for like haircuts, or first days on jobs. If i take like 3mg xanax(big dose) before my haircut, it’s not as bad, but it’s still there. Xanax has helped me the most so far, but i am becoming too dependent on it. I mean, who has to take xanax so there head dont shake for a haircut? Or say they can control their hands from shanking uncontollably when doing a job in front of someone. especially in that high of dose. a small dose has never worked for me. I feel helpless, and almost dead in a way. my family or freinds dont know about this, and has been gradually getting worse since the age of around 17 i beleieve. i would like to go back to school, but I would rather take a bullet to the head, than have to recite a speech in front of people. Xanax couldnt even help me there. I am so scared and confused. Its very hard for me to make friends too because of this. I am beggining to think that its some sort of manic symptoms, but dont know. have been to mental health sites, but cant find any kinda disease about the UNCONTOLLABLE shakes and tremers. I welcome all replies, and hope someone has been thru this and made it. Have had some thoughts of suicide, but would never do it, there no way cause of my kids, and i’d just be way to scared and the damage it would do to my family. someone please help me. have been to shrinks, but havent told them everything, probably wont. I just want honest replies and maybe someone knows whats wrng with me. Please help me, i pray to god every night for help, maybe i will find it here. Thanks! and also, and opinions on the meds i am currently taking? I will go now! PEACE!!!!!!!

Response:

Question:

Ketoacidosis is not ketosis. Very different states. Ketoacidosis is indeed life threatening and must be treated immediately. Ketoacidosis is generally caused by diabetes which is out of control. Diabetes (except type I diabetes) is caused by carbohydrate metabolism.

Can anyone tell me the difference between ketoacidosis and lactoacidosis? I remember lactoacidosis being one of the potential (and extremely life-threatening) side-effects of taking the drug metformin (which I’ve since stopped taking) Is it the same as ketoacidosis? thanks ~~~~~ Rachel Outside of a dog, a book is man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. – Groucho Marx ~~~~

Response:

  Fact: ten years from now, people will look back at Atkins and his FAD diet and shake their heads and wonder if the horrible effects can be reversed.

LOL Try reading the book … Dr Atkins and his diet have been around for over 20 years now … jackass ~~~~~ Rachel Outside of a dog, a book is man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. – Groucho Marx ~~~~

Response:

"Nina" wrote … I just hate, fads, fashions, pop culture and anything else that worms its way into the mainstream culture by praying on the desperate.  This whole Dr. "Quack" Atkins thing just hits a nerve; a very sore nerve at that! Ah, so you’re here to save us from ourselves.  Good chap. <snip Thanks darling! You’re simply divine.

*laffin’ my @ss off!* ~~~~~ Rachel Outside of a dog, a book is man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. – Groucho Marx ~~~~

Response:

"Lisa C." wrote Also, I see you post to other diet newsgroups as well. Is this for the betterment of man-kind? How wonderful of you.

I was wondering how long it would take for people to bite, I’ve seen quite a few anti-low-carb messages from this guy today – poor Nigel No-Mates needs to annoy people to get any attention … poor diddums! Every newsgroup needs a troll to play with! ~~~~~ Rachel Outside of a dog, a book is man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. – Groucho Marx

Response:

Ahh, so you think that no one holds the answer.  The Doctors may not be right all the time.  And Encylopedia Britainica?  More knowledgable that PhD education biochemists?  What makes you so sure you hold the "right" answer anymore than the doctors who do recommend this diet?  Half the people in any arguement are correct, you think you way, we will think out way.  Just don’t try to save us from ourselves, and we won’t tell YOU how to run your life either. Hope (PMS’ing and bitchy from being tempted by the pizza monster tonight at a friend’s place) 183/180/145 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – And my doctor wanted to put me on medication for the rest of my life to "control" a potential blood pressure problem at the age of 14.  A year’s worth of running a mile every day and the problem disappeared, doctors can’t even explain that one. So, in my opinon, medical doctors rate just about as low as TV evangelists in my books.  BTW, notice how if they have the choice of 5 different mefications to subscribe, they choose the newest, most expensive one by default, unless otherwise instructed?

Response:

1. Extended periods of ketosis affect the chemical composition of the blood in such a way that you increase risk of cardiac incident (blood ketoacidosis). 2. In a state of ketoacidosis, carbon dioxide accumulates in the tissues. Oxygen delivery to the cells is impaired. This can lead to a wide range of disastrous consequences ranging from respiratory ailments to metabolic illness. 3. Toxic ammonia buildup resulting from severe cases of ketoacidosis can be lethal.

You neglected to note that ketoacidosis is a condition limited to Type I diabetics.  In people who are capable of producing insulin, feedback mechanisms in the body prevent dietary ketosis from becoming ketoacidosis. When ketone concentrations reach a certain level, the body releases insulin and inhibits metabolism of fats. —                 "There’s a seeker born every minute."

Response:

I love it Nina!!   lol Cath

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I don’t sell anything, actually I work for the Wildlife Conservation Society. I just hate, fads, fashions, pop culture and anything else that worms its way into the mainstream culture by praying on the desperate.  This whole Dr. "Quack" Atkins thing just hits a nerve; a very sore nerve at that! Ah, so you’re here to save us from ourselves.  Good chap. Thank you ever so much for your concern regarding my health.  In this day and age of ever-increasing apathy, it heartens me to know that you are looking out for my health needs. Thanks darling! You’re simply divine. Ta- Nina —

Response:

So far be it for me to even bother trying to help anyone further.

 Oh, good – does this mean you’ll go away now??

Response:

Well, I was posting this to keep everyone informed.  I’m not saying you don’t lose weight on this diet, I just wanted to enighten some people that only had the information being fed (no pun intended) to them by Atkins, with some objective references.

Except, the references you’ve given aren’t objective. Or complete. Encyclopedias have always been put together by biased people. You can read encyclopedias of the past to understand how this is true. For example, a writer I am fond of, Lytton Strachey, was a homosexual and lived with a woman artist he had a platonic lifelong affair with, for a good portion of his adult life. (Early 20th century) An encyclopedia from the early seventies that I was doing research in, claimed he was a lifelong bachelor, who lived until his death with his mother. This was a so-called authoritative text! Read old encyclopedias, and the archaic ideas put out by them will shock you. Read medical books from a few years back and you’ll run into the same situation. This has been true for centuries. Ketosis CAN be a symptom of a number of disorders. That does not mean it is always a symptom of a disorder. Ketogenic diets are increasingly recognized as an excellent way to deal with brain and nerve system disorders such as epilepsy & sclerosis. I know that it is certainly making a difference in my condition, benign essential tremor. There is a reason why the quotation "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing" is so true. I don’t like seeing people being taken advantage of, but everyone here seems to know everything there is about the side effects of the diet. (Or at least they want to believe everything Atkins has told them, without question.)  So far be it for me to even bother trying to help anyone further. The information is right there for anyone who wants to remove the blinders for a second.  There’s no sense in me trying to show it to you, as the saying goes, "You can lead a horse to water…"

You are assuming we are all idiots. Far from it. I didn’t leap into this diet. I was concerned about it for years. But the more I have learned, and the more I do it, the more I know I’ve made a good choice. And if you are concerned about side effects, take a look at all the pharmaceutical ads that are promoting wonder drugs right now, that must by law list the side effects of the drugs. You think this diet is dangerous? God. Sandra – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m not desperate.  I like lowcarbing and it is working for me and most of the people on the NG.  I appreciate your concern and your need to "warn" us, but honestly, nobody is dropping dead on this diet. Give it some time… the effects will start to show their ugly face. Fact: eating high protein low/no carb acidifies the body Fact: In an attempt to raise system PH, the body calls on it’s mineral stores Fact: the primary mineral stores are within the bones Fact: EATING LOWCARB WILL de-mineralize your bones THUS lead you into an osteoporotic state…. you will sneeze and fracture your ribs….EEEOUCH! Fact: if you disagree with ANY of the above, you need to research these FACTS!

Fact: It takes more than writing "Fact" to make something a Fact. Thought I would explain that to you, since you seem confused. I hate for FACTS to get in the way of a good argument, but alas, it’s now to be the case.  Before I killfile you, I’ll leave you with this: I’m imagining you’re talking about the FALLACY that "protein causes calcium loss."  I’d also imgine you’ve got nothing to back up your claim except that your mother’s-brother’s-friend-who-once-knew-a-nutritionist told you. There’s much more that goes into bone density, like activity level and hormones.  But that would be like, facts, which I think you have no desire to be in possession of.  Before you go into my killfile (ta!) I’ll leave you with this. High Protein Diets and Bone Loss by Elzi Volk http://www.allprotraining.com/Articles/NutritionCenter/2000/May/highp… (She actually uses, like, references and stuff.  But again, let’s not have facts get in the way of things) It’s believed that the old research was poorly designed and is outdated. A wee bit o’ current research. Proc Nutr Soc 1999 May;58(2):403-13 Optimal intakes of protein in the human diet. Millward DJ Centre for Nutrition and Food Safety, School of Biological Sciences, For protein, progress is slow in defining quantifiable indicators of adequacy other than balance and growth. As far as current requirements are concerned, only in the case of infants and children is there any case for revision, and  this change is to lower values. Such intakes would appear to be safe  when consumed as milk formula. In pregnancy, notwithstanding the concern that deficiency  may influence programming of disease in later life, there is little  evidence of any increased need, and some evidence that increased intakes would pose a  risk. For the elderly there is no evidence of an increased requirement  or of benefit from increased intakes, except possibly for bone health. For adults, while we  now know much more about metabolic adaptation to varying intakes, there  would appear to be no case for a change in current recommendations. As far as  risks and benefits of high intakes are concerned, there is now only a weak case for risk for renal function. For bone health the established views of risk of high protein intakes are not supported by newly-emerging data, with benefit indicated in the elderly. There is also circumstantial evidence for benefit on blood  pressure and stroke mortality. With athletes there is little evidence of benefit of increased intakes in terms of performance, with older literature suggesting an adverse influence. Thus, given that a safe upper limit is currently defined as twice the reference nutrient intake, and that for individuals with high energy requirements this value (1.5 g/kg per d) is easily exceeded, there is a  case for revising thedefinition of a safe upper limit. Cheers, Nina — 100% Sweat http://www.theslack.com/diet2.html

Response:

Ketosis-lipolysis is NOT ketoacidosis http://www.lowcarb.org/ketosis.html      Please don’t feed the TROLL.   Lee Rodgers Lee Rodgers The Lowcarb Retreat http://www.lowcarb.org LOSE weight for LOOSE jeans.  LOSERS have LOOSER jeans. "I have to say, if your mind weren’t so narrow, your waist would be." Dr.A Read the FAQ jack   http://www.grossweb.com/asdlc Lowcarb Cookbooks   http://www.lowcarb.org/cook_bks.html

Response:

Well, I was posting this to keep everyone informed.  I’m not saying you don’t lose weight on this diet, I just wanted to enighten some people that only had the information being fed (no pun intended) to them by Atkins, with some objective references. I don’t like seeing people being taken advantage of, but everyone here seems to know everything there is about the side effects of the diet. (Or at least they want to believe everything Atkins has told them, without question.)  So far be it for me to even bother trying to help anyone further. The information is right there for anyone who wants to remove the blinders for a second.  There’s no sense in me trying to show it to you, as the saying goes, "You can lead a horse to water…"

Response:

Well, I was posting this to keep everyone informed.  I’m not saying you don’t lose weight on this diet, I just wanted to enighten some people that only had the information being fed (no pun intended) to them by Atkins, with some objective references.

Everyone here is not on Atkins. I don’t like seeing people being taken advantage of, but everyone here seems to know everything there is about the side effects of the diet. (Or at least they want to believe everything Atkins has told them, without question.)  So far be it for me to even bother trying to help anyone further. The information is right there for anyone who wants to remove the blinders for a second.  There’s no sense in me trying to show it to you, as the saying goes, "You can lead a horse to water…"

Back’atcha.  Read a book once and awhile.  You might learn something. Cheers, Nina — 100% Sweat http://www.theslack.com/diet2.html

Response:

I’m not desperate.  I like lowcarbing and it is working for me and most of the people on the NG.  I appreciate your concern and your need to "warn" us, but honestly, nobody is dropping dead on this diet.

Give it some time… the effects will start to show their ugly face. Fact: eating high protein low/no carb acidifies the body Fact: In an attempt to raise system PH, the body calls on it’s mineral stores Fact: the primary mineral stores are within the bones Fact: EATING LOWCARB WILL de-mineralize your bones THUS lead you into an osteoporotic state…. you will sneeze and fracture your ribs….EEEOUCH! Fact: if you disagree with ANY of the above, you need to research these FACTS! Fact: ten years from now, people will look back at Atkins and his FAD diet and shake their heads and wonder if the horrible effects can be reversed. Fact: The Atkin’s DIE-t WILL go the way of the dinosaurs, leisure suits, AMC Pacers, disco, …etc. Maybe it’s just Atkins’ way of ridding the world of really dumb folk?… YA NEVER KNOW

Response:

And my doctor wanted to put me on medication for the rest of my life to "control" a potential blood pressure problem at the age of 14.  A year’s worth of running a mile every day and the problem disappeared, doctors can’t even explain that one. So, in my opinon, medical doctors rate just about as low as TV evangelists in my books.  BTW, notice how if they have the choice of 5 different mefications to subscribe, they choose the newest, most expensive one by default, unless otherwise instructed? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You know, my Dr. who is a DO BTW told me to go on this diet.  Is he a quack too?  I think not.  If you pay attention to history refined flours and sugars weren’t eaten in the mass quantity that they are now.  In the beginning of the 1800’s people ate only about 10 lbs. of sugar a year.  By the beginning of the 1900’s people were eating 150 lbs. of sugar a year. That is a significant increase, and that’s also the same time obesity went on the rise. I’m sure you’re thinking that people have always eaten bread and potatoes and pasta, and you’re right. But they were eating the bread and pasta from whole grain flour, which is healthier.  I’m sure that people 200 years ago were probably in a state of ketosis all the time..and they all did fine. Dr.Atkins sells his products because there is a need for them.  You don’t have to buy them if you don’t want to though.  I didn’t, I just bought the book is all.  I take my multivitamin from the vitamins I already have.  If I choose to buy shakes, I doubt I’ll buy Atkins since they’re more expensive than another brand I found that does the same thing. You should read Dr.Atkins book BEFORE judging the diet as a whole.  And you should also consider that many of us on this diet were either told to go on it by a Dr. or are under a Dr’s supervision. — -Michelle in Michigan 280/270/170 Atkins since 3-5-01

Response:

You know, my Dr. who is a DO BTW told me to go on this diet.  Is he a quack too?  I think not.  If you pay attention to history refined flours and sugars weren’t eaten in the mass quantity that they are now.  In the beginning of the 1800’s people ate only about 10 lbs. of sugar a year.  By the beginning of the 1900’s people were eating 150 lbs. of sugar a year. That is a significant increase, and that’s also the same time obesity went on the rise. I’m sure you’re thinking that people have always eaten bread and potatoes and pasta, and you’re right. But they were eating the bread and pasta from whole grain flour, which is healthier.  I’m sure that people 200 years ago were probably in a state of ketosis all the time..and they all did fine. Dr.Atkins sells his products because there is a need for them.  You don’t have to buy them if you don’t want to though.  I didn’t, I just bought the book is all.  I take my multivitamin from the vitamins I already have.  If I choose to buy shakes, I doubt I’ll buy Atkins since they’re more expensive than another brand I found that does the same thing. You should read Dr.Atkins book BEFORE judging the diet as a whole.  And you should also consider that many of us on this diet were either told to go on it by a Dr. or are under a Dr’s supervision. — -Michelle in Michigan 280/270/170 Atkins since 3-5-01

Response:

May I assume then that you have no association with the poorly designed home made web page that you quote other than the Britannica site or the products being sold there? You should update FrontPage. Also, I see you post to other diet newsgroups as well. Is this for the betterment of man-kind? How wonderful of you.              :-)     LiLi                              (180/169/125)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I don’t sell anything, actually I work for the Wildlife Conservation Society. I just hate, fads, fashions, pop culture and anything else that worms its way into the mainstream culture by praying on the desperate.  This whole Dr. "Quack" Atkins thing just hits a nerve; a very sore nerve at that! Anyway, I didn’t notice any ads in that message *shrug*. Wow Doc! Looks like you are selling a few products of your own! Is that "for the betterment of man-kind" or your pocketbook? —              :-)     LiLi                              (180/169/125) Read these articles taken form various sites on the Web: ketosis – metabolic disorder marked by high levels of ketones in the tissues and body fluids, including blood and urine. There is less sugar than normal in the blood and less glycogen (the storage form of sugar) in the liver; fat accumulates in the liver, as do amino acids, from which the liver can produce more glycogen. Ketosis may be present in diabetes mellitus. When cattle are affected, they lose weight and produce less milk; dietary adjustment to meet the special requirements of individual cattle helps avoid the condition. (Britannica.com) Now this: With further fasting, lipolysis continues to increase for a few days before it plateaus at a high rate. A large proportion of elevated fatty acids are converted to the "ketone bodies" in the liver, a process enhanced by the high level of glucagon. The brain, previously an avid and fastidious consumer of glucose, begins to use ketones as well as glucose. Eventually, more than one-half of the brain’s daily metabolic energy needs are met by the ketone bodies, thus substantially diminishing the need for hepatic glucose production. The decrease in gluconeogenesis reduces the need for protein-derived amino acids, sparing muscle and making survival during prolonged fasting possible. Starvation is characterized by very low levels of insulin, elevated concentrations of glucagon, and very high concentration of circulating free fatty acids and ketones. (Britannica.com) — When you consume a healthful and supportive diet complete with proteins, carbs, and fats, the carbohydrates are broken down into glucose. Glucose is actually blood sugar. Some of that glucose is transported and stored in muscle tissue as "glycogen." This is sort of the fuel in your fuel tank. That’s important to understand. Glycogen = Fuel. Glycogen is used to produce energy that fuels muscle contraction. ALL muscle contraction! Don’t think of muscle contraction only as exercise. Any movement requires the contraction of muscle, from blinking your eye to rising from bed in the morning. Without glycogen, you don’t have any fuel in the fuel tank. As long as you’re consuming carbs, you continue to re-fuel. You access and burn up stored glycogen, but quickly replace it with new muscle fuel. An understanding of that simple fact, that carbohydrates are the source of muscle fuel should raise an immediate red flag toward anything that suggests eliminating carbs. Once you understand the basic premise behind muscle glycogen, you should understand that the liver also plays a role in fuel storage. Some of the carbs that you eat ultimately wind up stored as liver glycogen. Think of the liver as sort of a "pump" for blood sugar. The brain burns more calories than any other organ in your body, and guess what it uses as its primary source of fuel. Glucose! Carbohydrates! As the brain results in the "burning" of blood glucose, the liver accesses its glycogen stores to keep blood glucose in adequate supply. Again, as you expend glycogen, the carbs that you ingest replete your supply. Atkins asks you to give up carbs. At first you’re doing just fine because you have glycogen stored. After a day or two, you’re using up your stored glycogen and you’re not replacing it. Your body shortly thereafter begins producing ketone bodies. I mentioned Atkins’ praise of a ketotic state already. Let’s look a bit further into this condition. Ketones are intermediaries in the process of metabolizing fat that are found in abnormal amounts in the blood and urine during periods of metabolic impairment. Give up all of your stored glycogen without replacing it and you’re likely going to be in such a state (Note: if you take in too many protein calories, it is possible to avoid carbs and never enter a state of ketosis rendering his low-carb ketosis theories useless). Atkins leads you to believe that the presence of these ketone bodies indicates ongoing fat release. He also assures you that they feed the brain. That is partially true. Here are just a few of the issues he neglects to address: 1. Extended periods of ketosis affect the chemical composition of the blood in such a way that you increase risk of cardiac incident (blood ketoacidosis). 2. In a state of ketoacidosis, carbon dioxide accumulates in the tissues. Oxygen delivery to the cells is impaired. This can lead to a wide range of disastrous consequences ranging from respiratory ailments to metabolic illness. 3. Toxic ammonia buildup resulting from severe cases of ketoacidosis can be lethal. I believe Atkins neglects to share that information with readers. He also neglects to tell you that the liver is called into play to "filter" the abnormal chemicals building up in the blood. This leads to a residual buildup of uric acid. Interestingly, this uric acid accumulation can lead to . . . formation of kidney stones! Kidney stones may be common among low carb dieters, but don’t mistake that for an indication that they’re normal! If all is working optimally, uric acid levels stay quite manageable, the kidneys continue to function normally, and you will likely never have stones accumulating in your urinary tract. (Thefitnesstruth.com) —— I have a lot of friends on low carb diets and for years now I’ve just had a feeling that something wasn’t right, after all, we all didn’t learn the 5 food groups in kindergarten just to throw it away later in life. Dr. Atkins supports the idea of placing your body in a state of Ketosis, in fact, this is what causes his diet to work.  After reading some of those articles above I have to ask "Why?".  Why would anyone want to place their body in this unhealthy state? Here’s a summary of Ketosis.  Your body starts using stored fat cells to provide fuel after the carbs are depleted.  The energy provided to the brain is only a little over 50% of the energy it needs to function, as opposed to the 100% provided by carbohydrates.  Ironically, people in this state of Ketosis don’t realize their reactions are being affected BECAUSE thier brain is operating too slowly to tell (Sorta like being unable to see the forest from the trees). Victims of starvation and insulin dependant diabetics who missed their insulin, are the ones commonly found in this state.  The first two words in the encyclopedia’s entry are "metobolic disorder".  Why then are people flocking to this diet if it requires placing your body in harm’s way? Ketosis is a bodies reaction and defense against illness.  Not only are diabetics found in this sate, anyone who has been sick for prolonged periods of time (Influenza, Bronchitis, etc.) also suffer form Ketosis, since they don’t eat as much as they should and force their body to go into this state of "emergency".  Why do you think people lose weight and look sickly thin when they’ve been sick for a while? I just can’t stress enough how unnatural this is.  It’s unnatural to artificailly place a healthy body in this sate of emergency when everything you need for a healthy living is right there in front of you. I could stand to lose a few pounds myself.  I was tempted to try a diet like this, but declined since it just didn’t sound right.  After reading what I have, I’m glad I did.  I hope some of you out there haven’t been completely suckered ito this diet by Atkins’ promise.  What he sells is a half-truth.  He lives by the phrase "A sucker is born every minute". Think about it, if he was doing this for the betterment of man-kind, why would he sell his products???

Response:

I don’t sell anything, actually I work for the Wildlife Conservation Society. I just hate, fads, fashions, pop culture and anything else that worms its way into the mainstream culture by praying on the desperate.  This whole Dr. "Quack" Atkins thing just hits a nerve; a very sore nerve at that!

Ah, so you’re here to save us from ourselves.  Good chap. Thank you ever so much for your concern regarding my health.  In this day and age of ever-increasing apathy, it heartens me to know that you are looking out for my health needs. Since you have now established yourself to be a virtual "Guardian Angel" over my well-being, I imagine you could and would be agreeable to extending your caring attitude towards the other areas of my life also. Firstly, please contact me as soon as possible so we can discuss my laundry.  I have a back-up of about three loads to do, and could you make sure to do the delicates by hand?   Secondly, Peanut the dog could really use a bath.  Please pick up the special Lytar soap at the Specialty Pet Store.  He could use a nail clip as well.  Then the bathtub will need scrubbing and, well, since you are looking out for my health, please scrub the entire bathroom whilst you’re at it.  Wouldn’t want any of those nasty germs to interfere with my health. Oh, and the car could use some gassing up and then maybe a quick sweep of the apartment.   Doc, love, you’re right up there with Mother Teresa and Princess Di. I’ll notify Stockholm. The Nobel Committmee will want to hear about this! Thanks darling! You’re simply divine. Ta- Nina — 100% Sweat http://www.theslack.com/diet2.html

Response:

Hey, I’m not desperate.  I like lowcarbing and it is working for me and most of the people on the NG.  I appreciate your concern and your need to "warn" us, but honestly, nobody is dropping dead on this diet.  I really have never felt better in my life.  Don’t get me wrong.  In my 20’s, I lost weight on the mainstream, low-fat, high complex carbo diet.  I tried it again, now that I’m in my late 30’s, and it wasn’t happening for me.  However, I started low carb and the pounds are coming off, albeit slowly, but hey, I’m in no hurry.  I personally don’t believe it’s healthy to eat all the carbs I was eating on a "normal" diet.  I don’t think Atkins is a fad diet…he’s been around since the early 70’s.  Maybe you could try the old saying, "Don’t knock it ’til you’ve tried it." Gwendolyn

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I don’t sell anything, actually I work for the Wildlife Conservation Society. I just hate, fads, fashions, pop culture and anything else that worms its way into the mainstream culture by praying on the desperate.  This whole Dr. "Quack" Atkins thing just hits a nerve; a very sore nerve at that! Anyway, I didn’t notice any ads in that message *shrug*. Wow Doc! Looks like you are selling a few products of your own! Is that "for the betterment of man-kind" or your pocketbook? —              :-)     LiLi                              (180/169/125) Read these articles taken form various sites on the Web: ketosis – metabolic disorder marked by high levels of ketones in the tissues and body fluids, including blood and urine. There is less sugar than normal in the blood and less glycogen (the storage form of sugar) in the liver; fat accumulates in the liver, as do amino acids, from which the liver can produce more glycogen. Ketosis may be present in diabetes mellitus. When cattle are affected, they lose weight and produce less milk; dietary adjustment to meet the special requirements of individual cattle helps avoid the condition. (Britannica.com) Now this: With further fasting, lipolysis continues to increase for a few days before it plateaus at a high rate. A large proportion of elevated fatty acids are converted to the "ketone bodies" in the liver, a process enhanced by the high level of glucagon. The brain, previously an avid and fastidious consumer of glucose, begins to use ketones as well as glucose. Eventually, more than one-half of the brain’s daily metabolic energy needs are met by the ketone bodies, thus substantially diminishing the need for hepatic glucose production. The decrease in gluconeogenesis reduces the need for protein-derived amino acids, sparing muscle and making survival during prolonged fasting possible. Starvation is characterized by very low levels of insulin, elevated concentrations of glucagon, and very high concentration of circulating free fatty acids and ketones. (Britannica.com) — When you consume a healthful and supportive diet complete with proteins, carbs, and fats, the carbohydrates are broken down into glucose. Glucose is actually blood sugar. Some of that glucose is transported and stored in muscle tissue as "glycogen." This is sort of the fuel in your fuel tank. That’s important to understand. Glycogen = Fuel. Glycogen is used to produce energy that fuels muscle contraction. ALL muscle contraction! Don’t think of muscle contraction only as exercise. Any movement requires the contraction of muscle, from blinking your eye to rising from bed in the morning. Without glycogen, you don’t have any fuel in the fuel tank. As long as you’re consuming carbs, you continue to re-fuel. You access and burn up stored glycogen, but quickly replace it with new muscle fuel. An understanding of that simple fact, that carbohydrates are the source of muscle fuel should raise an immediate red flag toward anything that suggests eliminating carbs. Once you understand the basic premise behind muscle glycogen, you should understand that the liver also plays a role in fuel storage. Some of the carbs that you eat ultimately wind up stored as liver glycogen. Think of the liver as sort of a "pump" for blood sugar. The brain burns more calories than any other organ in your body, and guess what it uses as its primary source of fuel. Glucose! Carbohydrates! As the brain results in the "burning" of blood glucose, the liver accesses its glycogen stores to keep blood glucose in adequate supply. Again, as you expend glycogen, the carbs that you ingest replete your supply. Atkins asks you to give up carbs. At first you’re doing just fine because you have glycogen stored. After a day or two, you’re using up your stored glycogen and you’re not replacing it. Your body shortly thereafter begins producing ketone bodies. I mentioned Atkins’ praise of a ketotic state already. Let’s look a bit further into this condition. Ketones are intermediaries in the process of metabolizing fat that are found in abnormal amounts in the blood and urine during periods of metabolic impairment. Give up all of your stored glycogen without replacing it and you’re likely going to be in such a state (Note: if you take in too many protein calories, it is possible to avoid carbs and never enter a state of ketosis rendering his low-carb ketosis theories useless). Atkins leads you to believe that the presence of these ketone bodies indicates ongoing fat release. He also assures you that they feed the brain. That is partially true. Here are just a few of the issues he neglects to address: 1. Extended periods of ketosis affect the chemical composition of the blood in such a way that you increase risk of cardiac incident (blood ketoacidosis). 2. In a state of ketoacidosis, carbon dioxide accumulates in the tissues. Oxygen delivery to the cells is impaired. This can lead to a wide range of disastrous consequences ranging from respiratory ailments to metabolic illness. 3. Toxic ammonia buildup resulting from severe cases of ketoacidosis can be lethal. I believe Atkins neglects to share that information with readers. He also neglects to tell you that the liver is called into play to "filter" the abnormal chemicals building up in the blood. This leads to a residual buildup of uric acid. Interestingly, this uric acid accumulation can lead to . . . formation of kidney stones! Kidney stones may be common among low carb dieters, but don’t mistake that for an indication that they’re normal! If all is working optimally, uric acid levels stay quite manageable, the kidneys continue to function normally, and you will likely never have stones accumulating in your urinary tract. (Thefitnesstruth.com) —— I have a lot of friends on low carb diets and for years now I’ve just had a feeling that something wasn’t right, after all, we all didn’t learn the 5 food groups in kindergarten just to throw it away later in life. Dr. Atkins supports the idea of placing your body in a state of Ketosis, in fact, this is what causes his diet to work.  After reading some of those articles above I have to ask "Why?".  Why would anyone want to place their body in this unhealthy state? Here’s a summary of Ketosis.  Your body starts using stored fat cells to provide fuel after the carbs are depleted.  The energy provided to the brain is only a little over 50% of the energy it needs to function, as opposed to the 100% provided by carbohydrates.  Ironically, people in this state of Ketosis don’t realize their reactions are being affected BECAUSE thier brain is operating too slowly to tell (Sorta like being unable to see the forest from the trees). Victims of starvation and insulin dependant diabetics who missed their insulin, are the ones commonly found in this state.  The first two words in the encyclopedia’s entry are "metobolic disorder".  Why then are people flocking to this diet if it requires placing your body in harm’s way? Ketosis is a bodies reaction and defense against illness.  Not only are diabetics found in this sate, anyone who has been sick for prolonged periods of time (Influenza, Bronchitis, etc.) also suffer form Ketosis, since they don’t eat as much as they should and force their body to go into this state of "emergency".  Why do you think people lose weight and look sickly thin when they’ve been sick for a while? I just can’t stress enough how unnatural this is.  It’s unnatural to artificailly place a healthy body in this sate of emergency when everything you need for a healthy living is right there in front of you. I could stand to lose a few pounds myself.  I was tempted to try a diet like this, but declined since it just didn’t sound right.  After reading what I have, I’m glad I did.  I hope some of you out there haven’t been completely suckered ito this diet by Atkins’ promise.  What he sells is a half-truth.  He lives by the phrase "A sucker is born every minute". Think about it, if he was doing this for the betterment of man-kind, why would he sell his products???

Response:

Cute. Lets examine some of your quotations and conclusions… Read these articles taken form various sites on the Web: ketosis – metabolic disorder marked by high levels of ketones in the tissues and body fluids, including blood and urine. There is less sugar than normal in the blood and less glycogen (the storage form of sugar) in the liver; fat accumulates in the liver, as do amino acids, from which the liver can produce more glycogen. Ketosis may be present in diabetes mellitus. When cattle are affected, they lose weight and produce less milk; dietary adjustment to meet the special requirements of individual cattle helps avoid the condition. (Britannica.com)

Ketoacidosis is not ketosis. Very different states. Ketoacidosis is indeed life threatening and must be treated immediately. Ketoacidosis is generally caused by diabetes which is out of control. Diabetes (except type I diabetes) is caused by carbohydrate metabolism. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Now this: With further fasting, lipolysis continues to increase for a few days before it plateaus at a high rate. A large proportion of elevated fatty acids are converted to the "ketone bodies" in the liver, a process enhanced by the high level of glucagon. The brain, previously an avid and fastidious consumer of glucose, begins to use ketones as well as glucose. Eventually, more than one-half of the brain’s daily metabolic energy needs are met by the ketone bodies, thus substantially diminishing the need for hepatic glucose production. The decrease in gluconeogenesis reduces the need for protein-derived amino acids, sparing muscle and making survival during prolonged fasting possible. Starvation is characterized by very low levels of insulin, elevated concentrations of glucagon, and very high concentration of circulating free fatty acids and ketones. (Britannica.com) —

Ketosis from low carbohydrate consumption is not the same state as ketosis from starvation. Whatever diet you may be on, starvation is bad news. When you consume a healthful and supportive diet complete with proteins, carbs, and fats, the carbohydrates are broken down into glucose. Glucose is actually blood sugar. Some of that glucose is transported and stored in muscle tissue as "glycogen." This is sort of the fuel in your fuel tank. That’s important to understand. Glycogen = Fuel.

Your body can burn sugar for fuel. It can also burn ethanol. And it can burn fat. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Glycogen is used to produce energy that fuels muscle contraction. ALL muscle contraction! Don’t think of muscle contraction only as exercise. Any movement requires the contraction of muscle, from blinking your eye to rising from bed in the morning. Without glycogen, you don’t have any fuel in the fuel tank. As long as you’re consuming carbs, you continue to re-fuel. You access and burn up stored glycogen, but quickly replace it with new muscle fuel. An understanding of that simple fact, that carbohydrates are the source of muscle fuel should raise an immediate red flag toward anything that suggests eliminating carbs. Once you understand the basic premise behind muscle glycogen, you should understand that the liver also plays a role in fuel storage. Some of the carbs that you eat ultimately wind up stored as liver glycogen. Think of the liver as sort of a "pump" for blood sugar. The brain burns more calories than any other organ in your body, and guess what it uses as its primary source of fuel. Glucose! Carbohydrates! As the brain results in the "burning" of blood glucose, the liver accesses its glycogen stores to keep blood glucose in adequate supply. Again, as you expend glycogen, the carbs that you ingest replete your supply. Atkins asks you to give up carbs. At first you’re doing just fine because you have glycogen stored. After a day or two, you’re using up your stored glycogen and you’re not replacing it. Your body shortly thereafter begins producing ketone bodies. I mentioned Atkins’ praise of a ketotic state already. Let’s look a bit further into this condition. Ketones are intermediaries in the process of metabolizing fat that are found in abnormal amounts in the blood and urine during periods of

How do you determine what is abnormal here? Ketones are normally present in fat metabolism, normally absent in carbohydrate metabolism. metabolic impairment. Give up all of your stored glycogen without replacing it and you’re likely going to be in such a state (Note: if you take in too many protein calories, it is possible to avoid carbs and never enter a state of ketosis rendering his low-carb ketosis theories useless). Atkins leads you to believe that the presence of these ketone bodies indicates ongoing fat release. He also assures you that they feed the brain. That is partially true. Here are just a few of the issues he neglects to address: 1. Extended periods of ketosis affect the chemical composition of the blood in such a way that you increase risk of cardiac incident (blood ketoacidosis).

No. Ketosis is not ketoacidosis. 2. In a state of ketoacidosis, carbon dioxide accumulates in the tissues. Oxygen delivery to the cells is impaired. This can lead to a wide range of disastrous consequences ranging from respiratory ailments to metabolic illness.

Also sudden death. But nobody deliberately induces ketoacidosis. 3. Toxic ammonia buildup resulting from severe cases of ketoacidosis can be lethal.

Yes. I believe Atkins neglects to share that information with readers. He

Since Dr. Atkins does not propose the inducement of a ketoacidotic state, he doesn’t generally warn his readers against that — though he does advise that ketosis is not ketoacidosis. also neglects to tell you that the liver is called into play to "filter" the abnormal chemicals building up in the blood. This leads to a

What abnormal chemicals? residual buildup of uric acid. Interestingly, this uric acid accumulation can lead to . . . formation of kidney stones!

Where did you come up with this. I have been in a state of ketosis over 7 months. Just had blood work done. No abnormal chemicals noted in the blood work. Kidney function is doing great. Kidney stones may be common among low carb dieters, but don’t mistake that for an indication that they’re normal! If all is working optimally, uric acid levels stay quite manageable, the kidneys continue to function normally, and you will likely never have stones accumulating in your urinary tract.

What makes you think that kidney stones are common among low carb eaters. Where did you get that idea? (Thefitnesstruth.com) —— I have a lot of friends on low carb diets and for years now I’ve just had a feeling that something wasn’t right, after all, we all didn’t learn the 5 food groups in kindergarten just to throw it away later in life.

I learned a lot before I was six that I discarded when I was 7. Dr. Atkins supports the idea of placing your body in a state of Ketosis, in fact, this is what causes his diet to work.  After reading some of those articles above I have to ask "Why?".  Why would anyone want to place their body in this unhealthy state?

What makes you think this is an unhealthy state? Here’s a summary of Ketosis.  Your body starts using stored fat cells to provide fuel after the carbs are depleted.  The energy provided to the brain is only a little over 50% of the energy it needs to function, as opposed to the 100% provided by carbohydrates.  Ironically, people in this state of Ketosis don’t realize their reactions are being affected BECAUSE thier brain is operating too slowly to tell (Sorta like being unable to see the forest from the trees).

That is actually funny. The brain and red blood cells do need sugar. They get all they need during ketosis by the conversion of protein to sugar. All the cells of your body need fat and are quite happy using fat for energy. I run a health care facility — a very demanding job. If my brain has been slowed down so much that I can’t even notice it, don’t you think everyone else would? Don’t you think my wife would notice that I had suddenly become slow and stupid? Victims of starvation and insulin dependant diabetics who missed their insulin, are the ones commonly found in this state.  The first two words in the encyclopedia’s entry are "metobolic disorder".  Why then are people flocking to this diet if it requires placing your body in harm’s way?

Diabetic ketoacidosis is indeed a metabolic disorder caused by the body’s inability to tolerate sugar. I certainly believe that it is wise to avoid diabetic ketoacidosis. A low carbohydrate diet is the best way to avoid that condition. Ketosis is a bodies reaction and defense against illness.  Not only are diabetics found in this sate, anyone who has been sick for prolonged periods of time (Influenza, Bronchitis, etc.) also suffer form Ketosis, since they don’t eat as much as they should and force their body to go into this state of "emergency".  Why do you think people lose weight and look sickly thin when they’ve been sick for a while?

What makes you say that ketosis is an ‘emergency state’? It is a quite normal state. The body can burn sugar (which results in one state) or fat (which results in another state). Why do you feel that one state is normal while the other is not? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just can’t stress enough how unnatural this is.  It’s unnatural to artificailly place a healthy body in this sate of emergency when everything you need for a healthy living is right there in front of you. I could stand to lose a few pounds myself.  I was tempted to try a diet like this, but declined since it just didn’t sound right.  After reading what I have, I’m glad I did.  I hope some

… read more »

Response:

Actually, in my biochem med class Yesterday I asked my professor… the brain actually prefers ketones… and she showed me. The brain doesn’t like glucose. I’d like to see a study with IQ and diet… it wouldn’t surprise me if (with a large sample size), we could show higher scores under Ketosis. That article, was… incorrect. I’ll agree with you about the media… science and health are reported inaccurately more then half the time. The fat craze is one great example. Study after study show that a calorie is a calorie is a calorie.. yet people actually try to cut back on Fat. I bet there are still doctors out there who think ulcers are related to stress… that was disproved.. its a bacterial infection… within a few years we will see the atkins diet become the diet. FDA should take over the nutrition business… why our food suppliers are telling us what is healthy is beyond me. American Heart Association Labels on Apple Jacks… get real. Just as grain production increased the pyramid… and the ratios provided (servings) is remarkably close to the grain surplus when divided spastically. I take it you probably don’t have a weight problem… or if you did… u may have been one of those who just ate too da*n much. I have no respect for those people at all. My doctor (MD, duel PhD (biochem) was the one who recommended it. Along with my sisters endocrinologist who is #1 in the world right now.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I don’t sell anything, actually I work for the Wildlife Conservation Society. I just hate, fads, fashions, pop culture and anything else that worms its way into the mainstream culture by praying on the desperate.  This whole Dr. "Quack" Atkins thing just hits a nerve; a very sore nerve at that! Anyway, I didn’t notice any ads in that message *shrug*. Wow Doc! Looks like you are selling a few products of your own! Is that "for the betterment of man-kind" or your pocketbook? —              :-)     LiLi                              (180/169/125) Read these articles taken form various sites on the Web: ketosis – metabolic disorder marked by high levels of ketones in the tissues and body fluids, including blood and urine. There is less sugar than normal in the blood and less glycogen (the storage form of sugar) in the liver; fat accumulates in the liver, as do amino acids, from which the liver can produce more glycogen. Ketosis may be present in diabetes mellitus. When cattle are affected, they lose weight and produce less milk; dietary adjustment to meet the special requirements of individual cattle helps avoid the condition. (Britannica.com) Now this: With further fasting, lipolysis continues to increase for a few days before it plateaus at a high rate. A large proportion of elevated fatty acids are converted to the "ketone bodies" in the liver, a process enhanced by the high level of glucagon. The brain, previously an avid and fastidious consumer of glucose, begins to use ketones as well as glucose. Eventually, more than one-half of the brain’s daily metabolic energy needs are met by the ketone bodies, thus substantially diminishing the need for hepatic glucose production. The decrease in gluconeogenesis reduces the need for protein-derived amino acids, sparing muscle and making survival during prolonged fasting possible. Starvation is characterized by very low levels of insulin, elevated concentrations of glucagon, and very high concentration of circulating free fatty acids and ketones. (Britannica.com) — When you consume a healthful and supportive diet complete with proteins, carbs, and fats, the carbohydrates are broken down into glucose. Glucose is actually blood sugar. Some of that glucose is transported and stored in muscle tissue as "glycogen." This is sort of the fuel in your fuel tank. That’s important to understand. Glycogen = Fuel. Glycogen is used to produce energy that fuels muscle contraction. ALL muscle contraction! Don’t think of muscle contraction only as exercise. Any movement requires the contraction of muscle, from blinking your eye to rising from bed in the morning. Without glycogen, you don’t have any fuel in the fuel tank. As long as you’re consuming carbs, you continue to re-fuel. You access and burn up stored glycogen, but quickly replace it with new muscle fuel. An understanding of that simple fact, that carbohydrates are the source of muscle fuel should raise an immediate red flag toward anything that suggests eliminating carbs. Once you understand the basic premise behind muscle glycogen, you should understand that the liver also plays a role in fuel storage. Some of the carbs that you eat ultimately wind up stored as liver glycogen. Think of the liver as sort of a "pump" for blood sugar. The brain burns more calories than any other organ in your body, and guess what it uses as its primary source of fuel. Glucose! Carbohydrates! As the brain results in the "burning" of blood glucose, the liver accesses its glycogen stores to keep blood glucose in adequate supply. Again, as you expend glycogen, the carbs that you ingest replete your supply. Atkins asks you to give up carbs. At first you’re doing just fine because you have glycogen stored. After a day or two, you’re using up your stored glycogen and you’re not replacing it. Your body shortly thereafter begins producing ketone bodies. I mentioned Atkins’ praise of a ketotic state already. Let’s look a bit further into this condition. Ketones are intermediaries in the process of metabolizing fat that are found in abnormal amounts in the blood and urine during periods of metabolic impairment. Give up all of your stored glycogen without replacing it and you’re likely going to be in such a state (Note: if you take in too many protein calories, it is possible to avoid carbs and never enter a state of ketosis rendering his low-carb ketosis theories useless). Atkins leads you to believe that the presence of these ketone bodies indicates ongoing fat release. He also assures you that they feed the brain. That is partially true. Here are just a few of the issues he neglects to address: 1. Extended periods of ketosis affect the chemical composition of the blood in such a way that you increase risk of cardiac incident (blood ketoacidosis). 2. In a state of ketoacidosis, carbon dioxide accumulates in the tissues. Oxygen delivery to the cells is impaired. This can lead to a wide range of disastrous consequences ranging from respiratory ailments to metabolic illness. 3. Toxic ammonia buildup resulting from severe cases of ketoacidosis can be lethal. I believe Atkins neglects to share that information with readers. He also neglects to tell you that the liver is called into play to "filter" the abnormal chemicals building up in the blood. This leads to a residual buildup of uric acid. Interestingly, this uric acid accumulation can lead to . . . formation of kidney stones! Kidney stones may be common among low carb dieters, but don’t mistake that for an indication that they’re normal! If all is working optimally, uric acid levels stay quite manageable, the kidneys continue to function normally, and you will likely never have stones accumulating in your urinary tract. (Thefitnesstruth.com) —— I have a lot of friends on low carb diets and for years now I’ve just had a feeling that something wasn’t right, after all, we all didn’t learn the 5 food groups in kindergarten just to throw it away later in life. Dr. Atkins supports the idea of placing your body in a state of Ketosis, in fact, this is what causes his diet to work.  After reading some of those articles above I have to ask "Why?".  Why would anyone want to place their body in this unhealthy state? Here’s a summary of Ketosis.  Your body starts using stored fat cells to provide fuel after the carbs are depleted.  The energy provided to the brain is only a little over 50% of the energy it needs to function, as opposed to the 100% provided by carbohydrates.  Ironically, people in this state of Ketosis don’t realize their reactions are being affected BECAUSE thier brain is operating too slowly to tell (Sorta like being unable to see the forest from the trees). Victims of starvation and insulin dependant diabetics who missed their insulin, are the ones commonly found in this state.  The first two words in the encyclopedia’s entry are "metobolic disorder".  Why then are people flocking to this diet if it requires placing your body in harm’s way? Ketosis is a bodies reaction and defense against illness.  Not only are diabetics found in this sate, anyone who has been sick for prolonged periods of time (Influenza, Bronchitis, etc.) also suffer form Ketosis, since they don’t eat as much as they should and force their body to go into this state of "emergency".  Why do you think people lose weight and look sickly thin when they’ve been sick for a while? I just can’t stress enough how unnatural this is.  It’s unnatural to artificailly place a healthy body in this sate of emergency when

… read more »

Response:

OH BROTHER!!! I am not even going to go into trying to explain the safety and medical aspect of this diet – except to point out that Dr. Atkins is a Doctor, a cardiologist, in fact. Go buy his book. And there is a HUGE difference between ketosis and KETOACIDOSIS or Diabetic Ketoacidosis or DKA. After reading your "interesting" post, I went and did some research that would put the difference into simple English. I don’t know what your agenda is, but here is what I found from emedicine.com and thestream.com: KETOSIS "Ketosis is a metabolic state in which the body will burn fat for fuel and is producing "ketones" (also called ketone bodies) as a byproduct. This change in metabolism occurs when the body no longer has a supply of carbohydrates to produce glycogen and after the liver has been depleted of stored glycogen. When either stored body fat or incoming dietary fat is used as fuel it breaks down into ketones. Ketones can be used as fuel for your body or discarded via your breath or urination. It is the rise in ketone production that means you are "in ketosis". Take note that although you are in ketosis this does not mean that you are *only* burning body fat. The released ketones may be from either body fat or dietary fat. Obviously, since we are trying to lose weight, we want to be in a metabolic state where body fat is being burned off.  Therefore, understanding the biochemical foundation of ketosis, we cut starches and sugars, this is called "low carbing", and  without incoming carbs, and without consuming too many grams of dietary fat or protein, our bodies will be burning stored body fat as fuel. Positive side effects of being in ketosis are that it can be protein sparing (allowing us to retain lean body mass) and that it can lead to a decrease in appetite, for some people." KETOACIDOSIS on the other hand is caused by hyperglycemia which causes an osmotic diuresis that leads to excessive loss of free water and electrolytes. Resultant hypovolemia leads to tissue hypoperfusion and lactic acidosis. The danger from electrolyte imbalances are the consequences of hyperglycemia, hyperosmolality and acidosis. CARB DIET "This biochemical process is safe. It is not a "fad" diet, it is one that our ancestors at almost exclusively. High in lean meats, fresh fruits and vegetables, low in most carbohydrates.  For a typical American at least 70% of calories are provided by foods that were practically unavailable early human times, namely processed foods such as oils, margarine, refined sugar and cereals. These typical western foods are low in minerals, vitamins and soluble fiber but high in fat and salt. There is much evidence indicating that some of these dietary factors are important causes of common western disorders like CORONARY HEART DISEASE, STROKE and DIABETES.  Rather than being harmful, there is mounting evidence that the low carbohydrate diet is extremely helpful."

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Read these articles taken form various sites on the Web: ketosis – metabolic disorder marked by high levels of ketones in the tissues and body fluids, including blood and urine. There is less sugar than normal in the blood and less glycogen (the storage form of sugar) in the liver; fat accumulates in the liver, as do amino acids, from which the liver can produce more glycogen. Ketosis may be present in diabetes mellitus. When cattle are affected, they lose weight and produce less milk; dietary adjustment to meet the special requirements of individual cattle helps avoid the condition. (Britannica.com) Now this: With further fasting, lipolysis continues to increase for a few days before it plateaus at a high rate. A large proportion of elevated fatty acids are converted to the "ketone bodies" in the liver, a process enhanced by the high level of glucagon. The brain, previously an avid and fastidious consumer of glucose, begins to use ketones as well as glucose. Eventually, more than one-half of the brain’s daily metabolic energy needs are met by the ketone bodies, thus substantially diminishing the need for hepatic glucose production. The decrease in gluconeogenesis reduces the need for protein-derived amino acids, sparing muscle and making survival during prolonged fasting possible. Starvation is characterized by very low levels of insulin, elevated concentrations of glucagon, and very high concentration of circulating free fatty acids and ketones. (Britannica.com) — When you consume a healthful and supportive diet complete with proteins, carbs, and fats, the carbohydrates are broken down into glucose. Glucose is actually blood sugar. Some of that glucose is transported and stored in muscle tissue as "glycogen." This is sort of the fuel in your fuel tank. That’s important to understand. Glycogen = Fuel. Glycogen is used to produce energy that fuels muscle contraction. ALL muscle contraction! Don’t think of muscle contraction only as exercise. Any movement requires the contraction of muscle, from blinking your eye to rising from bed in the morning. Without glycogen, you don’t have any fuel in the fuel tank. As long as you’re consuming carbs, you continue to re-fuel. You access and burn up stored glycogen, but quickly replace it with new muscle fuel. An understanding of that simple fact, that carbohydrates are the source of muscle fuel should raise an immediate red flag toward anything that suggests eliminating carbs. Once you understand the basic premise behind muscle glycogen, you should understand that the liver also plays a role in fuel storage. Some of the carbs that you eat ultimately wind up stored as liver glycogen. Think of the liver as sort of a "pump" for blood sugar. The brain burns more calories than any other organ in your body, and guess what it uses as its primary source of fuel. Glucose! Carbohydrates! As the brain results in the "burning" of blood glucose, the liver accesses its glycogen stores to keep blood glucose in adequate supply. Again, as you expend glycogen, the carbs that you ingest replete your supply. Atkins asks you to give up carbs. At first you’re doing just fine because you have glycogen stored. After a day or two, you’re using up your stored glycogen and you’re not replacing it. Your body shortly thereafter begins producing ketone bodies. I mentioned Atkins’ praise of a ketotic state already. Let’s look a bit further into this condition. Ketones are intermediaries in the process of metabolizing fat that are found in abnormal amounts in the blood and urine during periods of metabolic impairment. Give up all of your stored glycogen without replacing it and you’re likely going to be in such a state (Note: if you take in too many protein calories, it is possible to avoid carbs and never enter a state of ketosis rendering his low-carb ketosis theories useless). Atkins leads you to believe that the presence of these ketone bodies indicates ongoing fat release. He also assures you that they feed the brain. That is partially true. Here are just a few of the issues he neglects to address: 1. Extended periods of ketosis affect the chemical composition of the blood in such a way that you increase risk of cardiac incident (blood ketoacidosis). 2. In a state of ketoacidosis, carbon dioxide accumulates in the tissues. Oxygen delivery to the cells is impaired. This can lead to a wide range of disastrous consequences ranging from respiratory ailments to metabolic illness. 3. Toxic ammonia buildup resulting from severe cases of ketoacidosis can be lethal. I believe Atkins neglects to share that information with readers. He also neglects to tell you that the liver is called into play to "filter" the abnormal chemicals building up in the blood. This leads to a residual buildup of uric acid. Interestingly, this uric acid accumulation can lead to . . . formation of kidney stones! Kidney stones may be common among low carb dieters, but don’t mistake that for an indication that they’re normal! If all is working optimally, uric acid levels stay quite manageable, the kidneys continue to function normally, and you will likely never have stones accumulating in your urinary tract. (Thefitnesstruth.com) —— I have a lot of friends on low carb diets and for years now I’ve just had a feeling that something wasn’t right, after all, we all didn’t learn the 5 food groups in kindergarten just to throw it away later in life. Dr. Atkins supports the idea of placing your body in a state of Ketosis, in fact, this is what causes his diet to work.  After reading some of those articles above I have to ask "Why?".  Why would anyone want to place their body in this unhealthy state? Here’s a summary of Ketosis.  Your body starts using stored fat cells to provide fuel after the carbs are depleted.  The energy provided to the brain is only a little over 50% of the energy it needs to function, as opposed to the 100% provided by carbohydrates.  Ironically, people in this state of Ketosis don’t realize their reactions are being affected BECAUSE thier brain is operating too slowly to tell (Sorta like being unable to see the forest from the trees). Victims of starvation and insulin dependant diabetics who missed their insulin, are the ones commonly found in this state.  The first two words in the encyclopedia’s entry are "metobolic disorder".  Why then are people flocking to this diet if it requires placing your body in harm’s way? Ketosis is a bodies reaction and defense against illness.  Not only are diabetics found in this sate, anyone who has been sick for prolonged periods of time (Influenza, Bronchitis, etc.) also suffer form Ketosis,

… read more »

Response:

I don’t sell anything, actually I work for the Wildlife Conservation Society. I just hate, fads, fashions, pop culture and anything else that worms its way into the mainstream culture by praying on the desperate.  This whole Dr. "Quack" Atkins thing just hits a nerve; a very sore nerve at that! Anyway, I didn’t notice any ads in that message *shrug*. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Wow Doc! Looks like you are selling a few products of your own! Is that "for the betterment of man-kind" or your pocketbook? —              :-)     LiLi                              (180/169/125) Read these articles taken form various sites on the Web: ketosis – metabolic disorder marked by high levels of ketones in the tissues and body fluids, including blood and urine. There is less sugar than normal in the blood and less glycogen (the storage form of sugar) in the liver; fat accumulates in the liver, as do amino acids, from which the liver can produce more glycogen. Ketosis may be present in diabetes mellitus. When cattle are affected, they lose weight and produce less milk; dietary adjustment to meet the special requirements of individual cattle helps avoid the condition. (Britannica.com) Now this: With further fasting, lipolysis continues to increase for a few days before it plateaus at a high rate. A large proportion of elevated fatty acids are converted to the "ketone bodies" in the liver, a process enhanced by the high level of glucagon. The brain, previously an avid and fastidious consumer of glucose, begins to use ketones as well as glucose. Eventually, more than one-half of the brain’s daily metabolic energy needs are met by the ketone bodies, thus substantially diminishing the need for hepatic glucose production. The decrease in gluconeogenesis reduces the need for protein-derived amino acids, sparing muscle and making survival during prolonged fasting possible. Starvation is characterized by very low levels of insulin, elevated concentrations of glucagon, and very high concentration of circulating free fatty acids and ketones. (Britannica.com) — When you consume a healthful and supportive diet complete with proteins, carbs, and fats, the carbohydrates are broken down into glucose. Glucose is actually blood sugar. Some of that glucose is transported and stored in muscle tissue as "glycogen." This is sort of the fuel in your fuel tank. That’s important to understand. Glycogen = Fuel. Glycogen is used to produce energy that fuels muscle contraction. ALL muscle contraction! Don’t think of muscle contraction only as exercise. Any movement requires the contraction of muscle, from blinking your eye to rising from bed in the morning. Without glycogen, you don’t have any fuel in the fuel tank. As long as you’re consuming carbs, you continue to re-fuel. You access and burn up stored glycogen, but quickly replace it with new muscle fuel. An understanding of that simple fact, that carbohydrates are the source of muscle fuel should raise an immediate red flag toward anything that suggests eliminating carbs. Once you understand the basic premise behind muscle glycogen, you should understand that the liver also plays a role in fuel storage. Some of the carbs that you eat ultimately wind up stored as liver glycogen. Think of the liver as sort of a "pump" for blood sugar. The brain burns more calories than any other organ in your body, and guess what it uses as its primary source of fuel. Glucose! Carbohydrates! As the brain results in the "burning" of blood glucose, the liver accesses its glycogen stores to keep blood glucose in adequate supply. Again, as you expend glycogen, the carbs that you ingest replete your supply. Atkins asks you to give up carbs. At first you’re doing just fine because you have glycogen stored. After a day or two, you’re using up your stored glycogen and you’re not replacing it. Your body shortly thereafter begins producing ketone bodies. I mentioned Atkins’ praise of a ketotic state already. Let’s look a bit further into this condition. Ketones are intermediaries in the process of metabolizing fat that are found in abnormal amounts in the blood and urine during periods of metabolic impairment. Give up all of your stored glycogen without replacing it and you’re likely going to be in such a state (Note: if you take in too many protein calories, it is possible to avoid carbs and never enter a state of ketosis rendering his low-carb ketosis theories useless). Atkins leads you to believe that the presence of these ketone bodies indicates ongoing fat release. He also assures you that they feed the brain. That is partially true. Here are just a few of the issues he neglects to address: 1. Extended periods of ketosis affect the chemical composition of the blood in such a way that you increase risk of cardiac incident (blood ketoacidosis). 2. In a state of ketoacidosis, carbon dioxide accumulates in the tissues. Oxygen delivery to the cells is impaired. This can lead to a wide range of disastrous consequences ranging from respiratory ailments to metabolic illness. 3. Toxic ammonia buildup resulting from severe cases of ketoacidosis can be lethal. I believe Atkins neglects to share that information with readers. He also neglects to tell you that the liver is called into play to "filter" the abnormal chemicals building up in the blood. This leads to a residual buildup of uric acid. Interestingly, this uric acid accumulation can lead to . . . formation of kidney stones! Kidney stones may be common among low carb dieters, but don’t mistake that for an indication that they’re normal! If all is working optimally, uric acid levels stay quite manageable, the kidneys continue to function normally, and you will likely never have stones accumulating in your urinary tract. (Thefitnesstruth.com) —— I have a lot of friends on low carb diets and for years now I’ve just had a feeling that something wasn’t right, after all, we all didn’t learn the 5 food groups in kindergarten just to throw it away later in life. Dr. Atkins supports the idea of placing your body in a state of Ketosis, in fact, this is what causes his diet to work.  After reading some of those articles above I have to ask "Why?".  Why would anyone want to place their body in this unhealthy state? Here’s a summary of Ketosis.  Your body starts using stored fat cells to provide fuel after the carbs are depleted.  The energy provided to the brain is only a little over 50% of the energy it needs to function, as opposed to the 100% provided by carbohydrates.  Ironically, people in this state of Ketosis don’t realize their reactions are being affected BECAUSE thier brain is operating too slowly to tell (Sorta like being unable to see the forest from the trees). Victims of starvation and insulin dependant diabetics who missed their insulin, are the ones commonly found in this state.  The first two words in the encyclopedia’s entry are "metobolic disorder".  Why then are people flocking to this diet if it requires placing your body in harm’s way? Ketosis is a bodies reaction and defense against illness.  Not only are diabetics found in this sate, anyone who has been sick for prolonged periods of time (Influenza, Bronchitis, etc.) also suffer form Ketosis, since they don’t eat as much as they should and force their body to go into this state of "emergency".  Why do you think people lose weight and look sickly thin when they’ve been sick for a while? I just can’t stress enough how unnatural this is.  It’s unnatural to artificailly place a healthy body in this sate of emergency when everything you need for a healthy living is right there in front of you. I could stand to lose a few pounds myself.  I was tempted to try a diet like this, but declined since it just didn’t sound right.  After reading what I have, I’m glad I did.  I hope some of you out there haven’t been completely suckered ito this diet by Atkins’ promise.  What he sells is a half-truth.  He lives by the phrase "A sucker is born every minute". Think about it, if he was doing this for the betterment of man-kind, why would he sell his products???

Response:

Wow Doc! Looks like you are selling a few products of your own! Is that "for the betterment of man-kind" or your pocketbook? —              :-)     LiLi                              (180/169/125)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Read these articles taken form various sites on the Web: ketosis – metabolic disorder marked by high levels of ketones in the tissues and body fluids, including blood and urine. There is less sugar than normal in the blood and less glycogen (the storage form of sugar) in the liver; fat accumulates in the liver, as do amino acids, from which the liver can produce more glycogen. Ketosis may be present in diabetes mellitus. When cattle are affected, they lose weight and produce less milk; dietary adjustment to meet the special requirements of individual cattle helps avoid the condition. (Britannica.com) Now this: With further fasting, lipolysis continues to increase for a few days before it plateaus at a high rate. A large proportion of elevated fatty acids are converted to the "ketone bodies" in the liver, a process enhanced by the high level of glucagon. The brain, previously an avid and fastidious consumer of glucose, begins to use ketones as well as glucose. Eventually, more than one-half of the brain’s daily metabolic energy needs are met by the ketone bodies, thus substantially diminishing the need for hepatic glucose production. The decrease in gluconeogenesis reduces the need for protein-derived amino acids, sparing muscle and making survival during prolonged fasting possible. Starvation is characterized by very low levels of insulin, elevated concentrations of glucagon, and very high concentration of circulating free fatty acids and ketones. (Britannica.com) — When you consume a healthful and supportive diet complete with proteins, carbs, and fats, the carbohydrates are broken down into glucose. Glucose is actually blood sugar. Some of that glucose is transported and stored in muscle tissue as "glycogen." This is sort of the fuel in your fuel tank. That’s important to understand. Glycogen = Fuel. Glycogen is used to produce energy that fuels muscle contraction. ALL muscle contraction! Don’t think of muscle contraction only as exercise. Any movement requires the contraction of muscle, from blinking your eye to rising from bed in the morning. Without glycogen, you don’t have any fuel in the fuel tank. As long as you’re consuming carbs, you continue to re-fuel. You access and burn up stored glycogen, but quickly replace it with new muscle fuel. An understanding of that simple fact, that carbohydrates are the source of muscle fuel should raise an immediate red flag toward anything that suggests eliminating carbs. Once you understand the basic premise behind muscle glycogen, you should understand that the liver also plays a role in fuel storage. Some of the carbs that you eat ultimately wind up stored as liver glycogen. Think of the liver as sort of a "pump" for blood sugar. The brain burns more calories than any other organ in your body, and guess what it uses as its primary source of fuel. Glucose! Carbohydrates! As the brain results in the "burning" of blood glucose, the liver accesses its glycogen stores to keep blood glucose in adequate supply. Again, as you expend glycogen, the carbs that you ingest replete your supply. Atkins asks you to give up carbs. At first you’re doing just fine because you have glycogen stored. After a day or two, you’re using up your stored glycogen and you’re not replacing it. Your body shortly thereafter begins producing ketone bodies. I mentioned Atkins’ praise of a ketotic state already. Let’s look a bit further into this condition. Ketones are intermediaries in the process of metabolizing fat that are found in abnormal amounts in the blood and urine during periods of metabolic impairment. Give up all of your stored glycogen without replacing it and you’re likely going to be in such a state (Note: if you take in too many protein calories, it is possible to avoid carbs and never enter a state of ketosis rendering his low-carb ketosis theories useless). Atkins leads you to believe that the presence of these ketone bodies indicates ongoing fat release. He also assures you that they feed the brain. That is partially true. Here are just a few of the issues he neglects to address: 1. Extended periods of ketosis affect the chemical composition of the blood in such a way that you increase risk of cardiac incident (blood ketoacidosis). 2. In a state of ketoacidosis, carbon dioxide accumulates in the tissues. Oxygen delivery to the cells is impaired. This can lead to a wide range of disastrous consequences ranging from respiratory ailments to metabolic illness. 3. Toxic ammonia buildup resulting from severe cases of ketoacidosis can be lethal. I believe Atkins neglects to share that information with readers. He also neglects to tell you that the liver is called into play to "filter" the abnormal chemicals building up in the blood. This leads to a residual buildup of uric acid. Interestingly, this uric acid accumulation can lead to . . . formation of kidney stones! Kidney stones may be common among low carb dieters, but don’t mistake that for an indication that they’re normal! If all is working optimally, uric acid levels stay quite manageable, the kidneys continue to function normally, and you will likely never have stones accumulating in your urinary tract. (Thefitnesstruth.com) —— I have a lot of friends on low carb diets and for years now I’ve just had a feeling that something wasn’t right, after all, we all didn’t learn the 5 food groups in kindergarten just to throw it away later in life. Dr. Atkins supports the idea of placing your body in a state of Ketosis, in fact, this is what causes his diet to work.  After reading some of those articles above I have to ask "Why?".  Why would anyone want to place their body in this unhealthy state? Here’s a summary of Ketosis.  Your body starts using stored fat cells to provide fuel after the carbs are depleted.  The energy provided to the brain is only a little over 50% of the energy it needs to function, as opposed to the 100% provided by carbohydrates.  Ironically, people in this state of Ketosis don’t realize their reactions are being affected BECAUSE thier brain is operating too slowly to tell (Sorta like being unable to see the forest from the trees). Victims of starvation and insulin dependant diabetics who missed their insulin, are the ones commonly found in this state.  The first two words in the encyclopedia’s entry are "metobolic disorder".  Why then are people flocking to this diet if it requires placing your body in harm’s way? Ketosis is a bodies reaction and defense against illness.  Not only are diabetics found in this sate, anyone who has been sick for prolonged periods of time (Influenza, Bronchitis, etc.) also suffer form Ketosis, since they don’t eat as much as they should and force their body to go into this state of "emergency".  Why do you think people lose weight and look sickly thin when they’ve been sick for a while? I just can’t stress enough how unnatural this is.  It’s unnatural to artificailly place a healthy body in this sate of emergency when everything you need for a healthy living is right there in front of you. I could stand to lose a few pounds myself.  I was tempted to try a diet like this, but declined since it just didn’t sound right.  After reading what I have, I’m glad I did.  I hope some of you out there haven’t been completely suckered ito this diet by Atkins’ promise.  What he sells is a half-truth.  He lives by the phrase "A sucker is born every minute". Think about it, if he was doing this for the betterment of man-kind, why would he sell his products???

Response:

Read these articles taken form various sites on the Web: ketosis – metabolic disorder marked by high levels of ketones in the tissues and body fluids, including blood and urine. There is less sugar than normal in the blood and less glycogen (the storage form of sugar) in the liver; fat accumulates in the liver, as do amino acids, from which the liver can produce more glycogen. Ketosis may be present in diabetes mellitus. When cattle are affected, they lose weight and produce less milk; dietary adjustment to meet the special requirements of individual cattle helps avoid the condition. (Britannica.com) Now this: With further fasting, lipolysis continues to increase for a few days before it plateaus at a high rate. A large proportion of elevated fatty acids are converted to the "ketone bodies" in the liver, a process enhanced by the high level of glucagon. The brain, previously an avid and fastidious consumer of glucose, begins to use ketones as well as glucose. Eventually, more than one-half of the brain’s daily metabolic energy needs are met by the ketone bodies, thus substantially diminishing the need for hepatic glucose production. The decrease in gluconeogenesis reduces the need for protein-derived amino acids, sparing muscle and making survival during prolonged fasting possible. Starvation is characterized by very low levels of insulin, elevated concentrations of glucagon, and very high concentration of circulating free fatty acids and ketones. (Britannica.com) — When you consume a healthful and supportive diet complete with proteins, carbs, and fats, the carbohydrates are broken down into glucose. Glucose is actually blood sugar. Some of that glucose is transported and stored in muscle tissue as "glycogen." This is sort of the fuel in your fuel tank. That’s important to understand. Glycogen = Fuel. Glycogen is used to produce energy that fuels muscle contraction. ALL muscle contraction! Don’t think of muscle contraction only as exercise. Any movement requires the contraction of muscle, from blinking your eye to rising from bed in the morning. Without glycogen, you don’t have any fuel in the fuel tank. As long as you’re consuming carbs, you continue to re-fuel. You access and burn up stored glycogen, but quickly replace it with new muscle fuel. An understanding of that simple fact, that carbohydrates are the source of muscle fuel should raise an immediate red flag toward anything that suggests eliminating carbs. Once you understand the basic premise behind muscle glycogen, you should understand that the liver also plays a role in fuel storage. Some of the carbs that you eat ultimately wind up stored as liver glycogen. Think of the liver as sort of a "pump" for blood sugar. The brain burns more calories than any other organ in your body, and guess what it uses as its primary source of fuel. Glucose! Carbohydrates! As the brain results in the "burning" of blood glucose, the liver accesses its glycogen stores to keep blood glucose in adequate supply. Again, as you expend glycogen, the carbs that you ingest replete your supply. Atkins asks you to give up carbs. At first you’re doing just fine because you have glycogen stored. After a day or two, you’re using up your stored glycogen and you’re not replacing it. Your body shortly thereafter begins producing ketone bodies. I mentioned Atkins’ praise of a ketotic state already. Let’s look a bit further into this condition. Ketones are intermediaries in the process of metabolizing fat that are found in abnormal amounts in the blood and urine during periods of metabolic impairment. Give up all of your stored glycogen without replacing it and you’re likely going to be in such a state (Note: if you take in too many protein calories, it is possible to avoid carbs and never enter a state of ketosis rendering his low-carb ketosis theories useless). Atkins leads you to believe that the presence of these ketone bodies indicates ongoing fat release. He also assures you that they feed the brain. That is partially true. Here are just a few of the issues he neglects to address: 1. Extended periods of ketosis affect the chemical composition of the blood in such a way that you increase risk of cardiac incident (blood ketoacidosis). 2. In a state of ketoacidosis, carbon dioxide accumulates in the tissues. Oxygen delivery to the cells is impaired. This can lead to a wide range of disastrous consequences ranging from respiratory ailments to metabolic illness. 3. Toxic ammonia buildup resulting from severe cases of ketoacidosis can be lethal. I believe Atkins neglects to share that information with readers. He also neglects to tell you that the liver is called into play to "filter" the abnormal chemicals building up in the blood. This leads to a residual buildup of uric acid. Interestingly, this uric acid accumulation can lead to . . . formation of kidney stones! Kidney stones may be common among low carb dieters, but don’t mistake that for an indication that they’re normal! If all is working optimally, uric acid levels stay quite manageable, the kidneys continue to function normally, and you will likely never have stones accumulating in your urinary tract. (Thefitnesstruth.com) —— I have a lot of friends on low carb diets and for years now I’ve just had a feeling that something wasn’t right, after all, we all didn’t learn the 5 food groups in kindergarten just to throw it away later in life. Dr. Atkins supports the idea of placing your body in a state of Ketosis, in fact, this is what causes his diet to work.  After reading some of those articles above I have to ask "Why?".  Why would anyone want to place their body in this unhealthy state? Here’s a summary of Ketosis.  Your body starts using stored fat cells to provide fuel after the carbs are depleted.  The energy provided to the brain is only a little over 50% of the energy it needs to function, as opposed to the 100% provided by carbohydrates.  Ironically, people in this state of Ketosis don’t realize their reactions are being affected BECAUSE thier brain is operating too slowly to tell (Sorta like being unable to see the forest from the trees). Victims of starvation and insulin dependant diabetics who missed their insulin, are the ones commonly found in this state.  The first two words in the encyclopedia’s entry are "metobolic disorder".  Why then are people flocking to this diet if it requires placing your body in harm’s way? Ketosis is a bodies reaction and defense against illness.  Not only are diabetics found in this sate, anyone who has been sick for prolonged periods of time (Influenza, Bronchitis, etc.) also suffer form Ketosis, since they don’t eat as much as they should and force their body to go into this state of "emergency".  Why do you think people lose weight and look sickly thin when they’ve been sick for a while? I just can’t stress enough how unnatural this is.  It’s unnatural to artificailly place a healthy body in this sate of emergency when everything you need for a healthy living is right there in front of you. I could stand to lose a few pounds myself.  I was tempted to try a diet like this, but declined since it just didn’t sound right.  After reading what I have, I’m glad I did.  I hope some of you out there haven’t been completely suckered ito this diet by Atkins’ promise.  What he sells is a half-truth.  He lives by the phrase "A sucker is born every minute". Think about it, if he was doing this for the betterment of man-kind, why would he sell his products???

Response:

Question:

no ….never,

Response:

Hi Charles… I don’t like it. I’m sure…. This form was a ghost. Aline – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a question for you. Someone have an auditive or visual hallucination with Paxil or Effexor? Aline With Effexor I had a variety of symptoms, some could be classed as visual hallucinations.  To me, it was more like dream state while I was awake, or awake state while I thought I was asleep. It also didn’t work on my depression, so I quit. No experience with Paxil. I have had what I think of as break-through dreams while awake on almost all the ADs I have used, usually within the first few weeks, and that goes away with time.

Response:

I have a question for you. Someone have an auditive or visual hallucination with Paxil or Effexor? Aline

With Effexor I had a variety of symptoms, some could be classed as visual hallucinations.  To me, it was more like dream state while I was awake, or awake state while I thought I was asleep. It also didn’t work on my depression, so I quit. No experience with Paxil. I have had what I think of as break-through dreams while awake on almost all the ADs I have used, usually within the first few weeks, and that goes away with time.

Response:

I have never seen Ally McBeal. I don’t watch prozakian American TV. Bri — If you post, please don’t email

Response:

No… It’s not med. You don’t understand me. Too expensive it’s not med but psychotherapy because psychotherapy change nothing for me.  I don’t want pay for nothing. Aline – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – you want me to go get the post you wrote , where you told me , you’re not taking meds anymore , because they are too expensive and they make you feel bad ? I don’t stopped my meds %%%%%%% The doctor prescribed me Effexor. I need to take med.  I don’t have a choice. Aline I have a question for you. Someone have an auditive or visual hallucination with Paxil or Effexor? Aline it doesn’t matter , you stopped taking meds , remember . —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—– —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

ok Aline , whatever , have a nice day … bye . – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -It’s real… I stopped Paxil during 3 weeks because this med wasn’t good for me. Because my depression, the doctor told me I have no choice to take meds. He prescribed me an other antidepressant. Aline then why did you tell me you stopped taking all meds ? I had auditive hallucination with Paxil and Thursday evening I had visual hallucination with Effexor. I saw a strange form who disappeared rapidely.  This form was white, fluid and opaque in the same time. I don’t sleep when I saw this. Now I’m afraid… I don’t want see this again. Aline I have had several visual hallucinations with paroxetine; I had little people dancing on the end of my bed. It was cute watching them. Bri — If you post, please don’t email —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

—–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

It’s real… I stopped Paxil during 3 weeks because this med wasn’t good for me. Because my depression, the doctor told me I have no choice to take meds. He prescribed me an other antidepressant. Aline – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – then why did you tell me you stopped taking all meds ? I had auditive hallucination with Paxil and Thursday evening I had visual hallucination with Effexor. I saw a strange form who disappeared rapidely.  This form was white, fluid and opaque in the same time. I don’t sleep when I saw this. Now I’m afraid… I don’t want see this again. Aline I have had several visual hallucinations with paroxetine; I had little people dancing on the end of my bed. It was cute watching them. Bri — If you post, please don’t email —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

you want me to go get the post you wrote , where you told me , you’re not taking meds anymore , because they are too expensive and they make you feel bad ? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I don’t stopped my meds %%%%%%% The doctor prescribed me Effexor. I need to take med.  I don’t have a choice. Aline I have a question for you. Someone have an auditive or visual hallucination with Paxil or Effexor? Aline it doesn’t matter , you stopped taking meds , remember . —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

—–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

then why did you tell me you stopped taking all meds ? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I had auditive hallucination with Paxil and Thursday evening I had visual hallucination with Effexor. I saw a strange form who disappeared rapidely.  This form was white, fluid and opaque in the same time. I don’t sleep when I saw this. Now I’m afraid… I don’t want see this again. Aline I have had several visual hallucinations with paroxetine; I had little people dancing on the end of my bed. It was cute watching them. Bri — If you post, please don’t email

—–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

I don’t stopped my meds %%%%%%% The doctor prescribed me Effexor. I need to take med.  I don’t have a choice. Aline – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a question for you. Someone have an auditive or visual hallucination with Paxil or Effexor? Aline it doesn’t matter , you stopped taking meds , remember . —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

I had auditive hallucination with Paxil and Thursday evening I had visual hallucination with Effexor. I saw a strange form who disappeared rapidely.  This form was white, fluid and opaque in the same time. I don’t sleep when I saw this. Now I’m afraid… I don’t want see this again. Aline – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have had several visual hallucinations with paroxetine; I had little people dancing on the end of my bed. It was cute watching them. Bri — If you post, please don’t email

Response:

I have a question for you. Someone have an auditive or visual hallucination with Paxil or Effexor? Aline

Response:

I have had several visual hallucinations with paroxetine; I had little people dancing on the end of my bed. It was cute watching them. Bri — If you post, please don’t email

Response:

I have a question for you. Someone have an auditive or visual hallucination with Paxil or Effexor? Aline

it doesn’t matter , you stopped taking meds , remember . —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

Question:

I am a 25 female who has been on Paxil and Zoloft for anxiety attacks. I went off of them two years ago but now my anxiety is back. The doctor wanted me back on them but being I had very bad withdrawl going off I said no. So he gave me prozac which made me feel crappy and very tired. Now he put me on Wellbutrin because I also suffer from depression but I am afraid to start it because of side effects. Has anyone been on this realtively new drug? I occasionally take Xanax but I don’t very often because it makes me so tired, even on a low dose.   Can anyone recommend a good drug without bad side effects for anxiety? Also does anyone get really run down and achey like feelings from anxiety? I am constantly tired and feel flu-like but the doctors say I’m fine. I don’t feel very fine. Thanks, ERIN

Response:

Hi Erin, I have anxiety and panic attacks and depression. I just started about a month ago on Effexor XR. So far it has been working well without any bad side effects for anxiety. In fact very few side effects at all. I’m also on a low dose of Xanax. I’ve never taken Wellbutrin so I can’t help you there. Your feelings of being run down and achy could be coming from the fact that you’re depressed. Finding the right doctor and the right meds can be tough. I hope you find something that works for you soon. Don’t give up! Best wishes, LInda

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am a 25 female who has been on Paxil and Zoloft for anxiety attacks. I went off of them two years ago but now my anxiety is back. The doctor wanted me back on them but being I had very bad withdrawl going off I said no. So he gave me prozac which made me feel crappy and very tired. Now he put me on Wellbutrin because I also suffer from depression but I am afraid to start it because of side effects. Has anyone been on this realtively new drug? I occasionally take Xanax but I don’t very often because it makes me so tired, even on a low dose.   Can anyone recommend a good drug without bad side effects for anxiety? Also does anyone get really run down and achey like feelings from anxiety? I am constantly tired and feel flu-like but the doctors say I’m fine. I don’t feel very fine. Thanks, ERIN

Response:

Hi – I’m like you Erin- also had horrible time coming off Paxil – so I’d hate to repeat that. I took Wellbutrin about a year ago. Started out w/ one 150mg each morning. (about a week) Then doc wanted me to take 1 in a.m. and 1p.m. Had to stop this as it made me very jittery and could not sleep at nite. Did fine on just the one 150mg each a.m. Then I went to one every other day- Didn’t really help me w/ anxiety. Then went to Serzone- Serzone helped me somewhat but I had to stop as it gave me heart palps and an unexplainable rash ! (heart palps- I guess it didnt help w/ anxiety after all). Now I am trying Celexa- very drowsy right now in the first wks – so if you feel run down, you may not want to try. Have you been checked for thryoid problems ? I was just diagnosed w/ hypothyroid and symptoms are no energy, depression, inability to tolerate cold (to name a few). simple test in doc’s office- and treatment relatively easy- med (that is very inexpensive). good luck, kim – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Erin, I have anxiety and panic attacks and depression. I just started about a month ago on Effexor XR. So far it has been working well without any bad side effects for anxiety. In fact very few side effects at all. I’m also on a low dose of Xanax. I’ve never taken Wellbutrin so I can’t help you there. Your feelings of being run down and achy could be coming from the fact that you’re depressed. Finding the right doctor and the right meds can be tough. I hope you find something that works for you soon. Don’t give up! Best wishes, LInda I am a 25 female who has been on Paxil and Zoloft for anxiety attacks. I went off of them two years ago but now my anxiety is back. The doctor wanted me back on them but being I had very bad withdrawl going off I said no. So he gave me prozac which made me feel crappy and very tired. Now he put me on Wellbutrin because I also suffer from depression but I am afraid to start it because of side effects. Has anyone been on this realtively new drug? I occasionally take Xanax but I don’t very often because it makes me so tired, even on a low dose.   Can anyone recommend a good drug without bad side effects for anxiety? Also does anyone get really run down and achey like feelings from anxiety? I am constantly tired and feel flu-like but the doctors say I’m fine. I don’t feel very fine. Thanks, ERIN

Response:

Question:

i am 30 years of age and two years ago-suffered a major panic attact and then depression-PAXIL has been a life saver-the first dose was bad for me, but then it was ok i think you should give it a try-but take it faithfully-just recently i skipped a few doses and the attacks and depression are back-i saw my doctor last week and she gave me a presc. to take with my paxil -10grams of celex-i haven’t tried yet-as panic suffers are against medication-i think i am fixing to try it-good luck let me know how it turns out

Response:

i am 30 years of age and two years ago-suffered a major panic attact and then depression-PAXIL has been a life saver-the first dose was bad for me, but then it was ok i think you should give it a try-but take it faithfully-just recently i skipped a few doses and the attacks and depression are back-i saw my doctor last week and she gave me a presc. to take with my paxil -10grams of celex-i haven’t tried yet-as panic suffers are against medication-i think i am fixing to try it-good luck let me know how it turns out

Do you mean *Celexa?* In that case I would be interested to know why your doctor prescribes two SRI’s for you. Not that I think it’s wrong, just interested. Philip

Response:

Dolores, I’m so sorry for your loss.  Thanksgiving was melancholy for me because my mom is in a nursing home after having a stroke 3 weeks ago.  I know it’s not the same as losing someone to death, but she’s not the same person anymore so in that sense I’m grieving the loss of the beautiful mother I knew.  Christmas won’t be much better I’m afraid. I’m on Paxil and I can highly recommend it, if you’re not bothered by the sexual side effects.  I’m not married so it’s no big deal for me. I’m not sure if Zoloft is the same way.  Anyway, Paxil got me through some very rough times over the past few weeks (with a little help from xanax) so I can recommend it from personal experience. If you go with Paxil, I would start ASAP because by the time the holidays hit it should have kicked in for you.  Start slowly at about 10 mg. and increase after 10 days or so.  All with your doctor’s guidance, of course. Best of luck and let us know how you’re doing. Sharon

Response:

i TRIED PAXIL FOR 2 MONTHS AND I WAS A ZOMBIE ALL THE TIME, I FELL ASLEEP DRIVING TWICE, NOW I AM ON MY 3RD MONTH OF ZOLOFT AND DOING GREAT!  GOOD LUCK

Response:

I knew the holidays were going to be rough this year (widowed 4/98) and I also felt that the .5 mg of Klonopin wasn’t going to carry me though  the next month. I was right. I’ve been weepy for the last two weeks, and the panic and anxiety are starting up again, which I have been free of since August! So you see, I need to do something. I’m so sick of this and wish I could propel myself into the future just to be normal again. Tomorrow I’m going to make an appt. to get my meds changed. I think I need the SSRI as my doc kept drilling into me, but Prozac didn’t work well for me. So what has been your experiences with Paxil or Zoloft? I have a friend who said Paxil gave him diahrea -don’t want that! Would a Zoloft/Klonopin mix work? Does that sound reasonable?

Maybe you only have to raise the Klonopin dose from .5 mgs to the average therapeutic dose which is around 3 mgs. If that doesn’t work after, say, two weeks, it might be a good idea to add an AD. Zoloft and Klonopin make a good combination if you’re not troubles by Zoloft side effects such as sexual dysfunction. Philip

Response:

Try the Paxil.  You need to really give it a chance, though.  It can take up to three weeks to notice any results.  The thing with medications such as Paxil, people think they will feel ‘happy’, or their problems will go away.  This is not true.  It will put you in a mindset to deal with your problems like ‘normal’ people.  Normal meaning: someone with regular amounts of serratonnin in their brain.  Good luck. S

Response:

I knew the holidays were going to be rough this year (widowed 4/98)

Dolores, I am so sorry for the death of your husband….. death is never easy to deal with when it comes to someone you love, but, the holidays can just stink, because of it. I lost my step mom (who truly *was* my mother, in the highest sense of the word) four years ago, this month. Then my sister, two years ago, this month, and last year, my grandmother. Novembers just BLOW, AFAIC. I think I know some of what you’re feeling, and I am feeling right along with you. Taking an antidepressant is a good starting place. When life is this tough, you sometimes need a biological correction to get you to a point where you can help yourself heal. (healthy diet, exercise, socializing, hobbies, etc.) It can really make the difference between being so stuck that you can’t find a way out, and feeling confident enough to work on taking care of yourself. There is also the phenomena associated with extended grief, which I am very familiar with — it can promote anxiety, panic attacks, clinical depression and obsessive thinking. Physically, it can prompt a first diagnosis of fibromyalgia in a person who is prone to it, and it can also compromise your immune system. Any of the a/d’s are probably as good as any others to start with, as there is no "blood test" they can do to target what biochemicals are unbalanced. You’ve already tried Prozac, so that probably isn’t an option, right now. There are many very effective ones out there, but, none of them are correct for everyone. Celexa seems to be the most promising as far as limited side effects. Maybe you could suggest that one to your doctor. He’s probably been bombarded with samples from the pharmaceutical rep, anyway. I’ve tried about eight or ten different ones, over the last two years, and haven’t yet found the one that works best for me. All have seemed to have their complications, even though I start each trial with every hope that this time, I’ve got the *right* one. <G But, this seems to be a lot more to do with the other disorders and dysfunctions that I have than it has to do with effects on the Panic Disorder. You’ll have to try them until you find the one that suits you. Most people hit on the right one within just a few tries, I would bet. (Just from what I’ve read on ASAP and mailing lists. So, you should feel confident that there is help on the way. If you go with Paxil, you will need to start with "micro" doses – very small doses, to avoid triggering anxiety and some of the side effects (Which vary tremendously from person to person!) If you take Paxil for more than about two months (I think that’s right?) you will also have to discontinue it slowly. Zoloft is another good choice — it works wonders for many people. As do Serzone, Effexor, and some of the older tricyclics. AFAIK, all of the antidepressants can be used at the same time as the benzodiazepines, such as Klonopin. But, just a thought — Klonopin is known to induce depression in some anxiety patients, while xanax has an anti-depressant effect all by itself, in others. I am not sure that only .5mg/day of Klonopin would be enough to induce dysphoria or depression, but, if you are susceptible to that particular effect, it can’t be doing the depression much good. At the same time, I am not sure that only .5mg/day of Klonopin is enough to keep the anxiety under control, but, maybe someone else can jump in here. It might be trial and error, but, OTOH, it just might be "trial and win!" in your case. Very best of luck to you!! Elizabeth

Response:

I knew the holidays were going to be rough this year (widowed 4/98) and I also felt that the .5 mg of Klonopin wasn’t going to carry me though  the next month. I was right. I’ve been weepy for the last two weeks, and the panic and anxiety are starting up again, which I have been free of since August! So you see, I need to do something. I’m so sick of this and wish I could propel myself into the future just to be normal again. Tomorrow I’m going to make an appt. to get my meds changed. I think I need the SSRI as my doc kept drilling into me, but Prozac didn’t work well for me. So what has been your experiences with Paxil or Zoloft? I have a friend who said Paxil gave him diahrea -don’t want that! Would a Zoloft/Klonopin mix work? Does that sound reasonable?

Response:

Question:

ENOUGH WITH THE DAMN ACCESS DEBATE THREADS! Living in the UK, I frequently unsubscribe from rec.boats.paddle because there’s too much which isn’t relevant to the UK paddler.   When I resubscribe (as I did last month), I’m always delighted when I find that Scott Weiser is still winding up paddlers, especially in the US. Best wishes

What a compliment.  Many thanks…. Regards, Scott Weiser ****** "I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend upon my friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" ****** http://www.dimensional.com/~weiser/ Copyright 1998 by Scott Weiser Under the UCC, by the act of transmitting any commercial e-mail advertisment to this address, you are expressly contracting with me in my professional capacity for a consultation on the ad’s effectiveness and you expressly agree to pay to me the sum of $250.00 for each such consultation within 10 days of my report to the original sending address.  You further expressly agree that all actions for recovery of fees owed shall be subject solely to the laws of the State of Colorado, which shall have sole jurisdiction.

Response:

ENOUGH WITH THE DAMN ACCESS DEBATE THREADS!

Living in the UK, I frequently unsubscribe from rec.boats.paddle because there’s too much which isn’t relevant to the UK paddler.   When I resubscribe (as I did last month), I’m always delighted when I find that Scott Weiser is still winding up paddlers, especially in the US. Best wishes Keith — |/| |_  |_) |_) /    /   canoeing instead of climbing when I |  | |__ | | /    __/  realised I could swim but not fly!"

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It’s all well and good to say that you, one individual boater, does no identifiable harm, but this ignores the impacts of scale, and when a hundred, or a thousand, or ten thousand boaters use the area, the cumulative impacts become significant.  Just look at the Grand Canyon. yes – and that’s why most public lands that incur use impacts are placed in management plans. These plans seek to find the right balance – though I’ll admit it can be arbitrary – especially when it comes to mulltiple-use determinations. It’s a delicate balance of the two, but remember that preserving to pass stewardship on does *not* necessarily mean passing it to the public who want to use the land for recreation. indeed. the ‘public’ is the government. All land public or private is regulation by Federal, State, and local laws that prevent land-owners from using their land when the impacts of such use affect the public. If you don’t believe this.. try something like a 1000 head feed-lot on your property… or placer mining… or eve condos… none of these will you do without a ‘permit’ and the government decides on behalf of the public if your proposal is ‘in the public interest’. Some folks of late consider these ‘takings’ but underlying ‘public interest’ concept is intact.

This is true, and I’ve never denied the validity of properly constructed land-use law, but *restricting* a property owner’s use to protect the health, welfare and safety of the public is substantially different from *appropriating* his property for the use of the public. But this is true ONLY IF the 100 cattle *do* damage the riverbank. Such impacts are not really comparative in nature.  Negative impacts cause by paddlers are not "better", or "less negative" impacts simply because they are caused by a paddler instead of a cow, they stand on their own, and when those impacts are unnecessary to begin with, they are that much more improper. hmmm.. they *are* comparative in terms of impacts… whether it is recreation, farming, mining.. all of these distill down to impacts that can be quantified in terms of water quality, habitat destruction, etc.  

Yes, but an unnecessary impact is an unnecessary impact, no matter how small it may be. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Cattle may cause negative impacts, which can be mitigated by proper management practices, but cattle are *necessary* impacts in most cases, because they are what pay the taxes and create the profits that are used to continue to preserve the area.   It’s all well and good to say "cattle-free in 2003" or whatever (though this mostly applies to federal lands) but the bills have to get paid somehow.     I suppose when paddlers fork over the thousands of dollars a year to pay the taxes and maintain the property, then I’ll consider allowing them to trespass.   Until then, their impacts, however slight, are *not necessary* to the preservation of the resource, and therefore they are justifiably banned. "can be mitigated by proper management practices" leaves it up to the landowner whoever that happens to be at a given time. this does not work when money is involved. Many landowners justify the destruction of the land they own for ‘economic benefits’. You are not unilaterally entitled to un-regulated economic activity just because you own the land. Your activity has to be compatible with the ‘public interest’ as there is hardly anything (economic)  you can do on your property that won’t ultimately affect the public. There are thousands and thousands of local, state, federal laws that restrict you every which way from Sunday. You may consider recreation not necessary – the public may think otherwise – the same goes for what you think is ‘necessary’. If you public disagrees with you then you may be restricted.

Absolutely correct, but the fact that the government may regulate my activities in the public interest has no nexus to my ability to regulate YOUR activities on my land.  As we have seen, even the government recognizes the impacts of recreationalists on public waters and has chosen to regulate them as well.  I’m not sure what your point is. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  I’am also amused by the ’scaring the wildlife’ argument – somewhat because there may be a ‘hint’ of truth for some species but how many species in the last few decades have been not only ’scared’ but just plain wiped-out because the habitat they lived on was used by the landowner for ‘other purposes’? Again, you are comparing apples and oranges.  The fact that species and habitat may have been impacted by landowners is a broad generalization and an irrelevant comparison.   In my case this is not the case, as is true in many other places, and you cannot claim that your impacts are legitimate merely because other impacts occur. Your impacts stand alone, on their own merits, and you are not excused by the bad behavior of others.   Using your logic, you should be able to toss beer cans on the bank, leave rubbish around and cut down trees for firewood just because somebody else does so somewhere else. That’s fallacious logic at best. I follow the consistency argument and agree but behavior is governed by law whether it occurs on private or public property – though different laws may apply depending on the behavior – for instance some usually can be arrested for ’speeding on your property’ because the law does not apply to private property.

I don’t understand.  You seem to be contradicting yourself. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If the ’scaring the wildlife’ arugment were true then most of the official ‘wild & scenic’ rivers in this nation – which are heavily travelled by recreation paddlers – would be completely devoid of wildlife. The reverse is true – once the land is dedicated by recreational use ONLY – the wildlife return and thrive.. and with the exception of certain ’shy’ species become confortable with humans – especially if they are not shooting them. It’s not the presence of the human itself that disturbs most animals – it is WHAT the human is doing and animals *know* that there is risk is hanging around. This is simply not true.  No one said that the riparian zone would become ‘devoid’ of life, and while wildlife may become habituated to some degree, the stresses of human intrusion *remain* to negatively affect populations and vigor.   And that wildlife you may see, which may be habituated, ignores those "shy" species, which are in the majority, which may indeed leave the area altogether, or may simply begin a gradual decline. Our federal lands are managed for *multiple* use with the recognition that humans *will* have impacts, and those impacts are balanced against the benefits which accrue to the public.  Factually, from a political point of view, it would be highly desireable to simply forbid human access to *most* wilderness areas in order to preserve the habitat, but it’s politically impossible to do so, so we instead try to mitigate the impacts we do have.  That’s why permit systems are cropping up on more and more rivers.  The impacts of scale have become clear and limitations are required to preserve the resource. Indeed – with respect to ‘wilderness designation’, it’s not the paddlers or recreation folks or environmentalists that are fighting it.. it’s the folks that want to build roads and use motors. Impacts from recreation are easily mitigated.. you employ a permit system and if an area has eagle nests.. then you close it off entirely. The right fringe/landowner rights movement is trying to strike down all of these laws.. they want it all wide open … so that power boats, ski doos, etc can you AND the impacts ARE comparative. 100 canoes CAN and ARE compared to 100 ski-doos. One single four-wheel drive can severly damage a trail… and it has become recognized that hikers can do but it’ll take a 1000 of them… so you permit the use.. no 4-wheel and only 10 hikers per day.. etc etc

True, but largely irrelevant.  You do prove my point however that mitigating and preventing impacts is a legitimate method of preserving the resource. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The ‘difficulty’ is that if Colorado actually did what you suggest – that there would be a firestorm and the arugment would be over with very quickly. You would lose big time. Very significant tourism and the public’s perception of being ‘welcome’ are involved. No sane public official would even consider it.. that’ why they’re content to let it be the way it is. Public officials don’t make the decisions, wrong… if the public doesn’t like the court decision they’ll change the law. The ‘law’ is determined by the legislature which consists of publically-elected officials. the Courts do.   No amount of feverish desire in pursuit of the almighty dollar can prevent me, or someone else from filing a suit in court claiming an improper taking of private property for public use without just compensation. That’s the purpose of the Constitution, to prevent the tyranny of the majority and the infringements of the rights of the individual by the public. yep…but even the constition can be ammended if the people want it.

True, and when you succeed in repealing the Fifth Amendment, get back to me. While you are technically correct, you must recognize that private property ownership and the prohibitions against the government exproprating property without compensation are one of the core beliefs of our nation, and it’s simply not credible that the vast majority of the public, *who are property owners*, will tear up the Constitution simply to suit a *small number* of boating recreationists who aren’t satisfied with the public … read more »

Response:

 It’s all well and good to say that you, one individual boater, does no identifiable harm, but this ignores the impacts of scale, and when a hundred, or a thousand, or ten thousand boaters use the area, the cumulative impacts become significant.  Just look at the Grand Canyon.

yes – and that’s why most public lands that incur use impacts are placed in management plans. These plans seek to find the right balance – though I’ll admit it can be arbitrary – especially when it comes to mulltiple-use determinations. It’s a delicate balance of the two, but remember that preserving to pass stewardship on does *not* necessarily mean passing it to the public who want to use the land for recreation.

indeed. the ‘public’ is the government. All land public or private is regulation by Federal, State, and local laws that prevent land-owners from using their land when the impacts of such use affect the public. If you don’t believe this.. try something like a 1000 head feed-lot on your property… or placer mining… or eve condos… none of these will you do without a ‘permit’ and the government decides on behalf of the public if your proposal is ‘in the public interest’. Some folks of late consider these ‘takings’ but underlying ‘public interest’ concept is intact. But this is true ONLY IF the 100 cattle *do* damage the riverbank. Such impacts are not really comparative in nature.  Negative impacts cause by paddlers are not "better", or "less negative" impacts simply because they are caused by a paddler instead of a cow, they stand on their own, and when those impacts are unnecessary to begin with, they are that much more improper.

 hmmm.. they *are* comparative in terms of impacts… whether it is recreation, farming, mining.. all of these distill down to impacts that can be quantified in terms of water quality, habitat destruction, etc.   Cattle may cause negative impacts, which can be mitigated by proper management practices, but cattle are *necessary* impacts in most cases, because they are what pay the taxes and create the profits that are used to continue to preserve the area.   It’s all well and good to say "cattle-free in 2003" or whatever (though this mostly applies to federal lands) but the bills have to get paid somehow.     I suppose when paddlers fork over the thousands of dollars a year to pay the taxes and maintain the property, then I’ll consider allowing them to trespass.   Until then, their impacts, however slight, are *not necessary* to the preservation of the resource, and therefore they are justifiably banned.

"can be mitigated by proper management practices" leaves it up to the landowner whoever that happens to be at a given time. this does not work when money is involved. Many landowners justify the destruction of the land they own for ‘economic benefits’. You are not unilaterally entitled to un-regulated economic activity just because you own the land. Your activity has to be compatible with the ‘public interest’ as there is hardly anything (economic)  you can do on your property that won’t ultimately affect the public. There are thousands and thousands of local, state, federal laws that restrict you every which way from Sunday. You may consider recreation not necessary – the public may think otherwise – the same goes for what you think is ‘necessary’. If you public disagrees with you then you may be restricted. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  I’am also amused by the ’scaring the wildlife’ argument – somewhat because there may be a ‘hint’ of truth for some species but how many species in the last few decades have been not only ’scared’ but just plain wiped-out because the habitat they lived on was used by the landowner for ‘other purposes’? Again, you are comparing apples and oranges.  The fact that species and habitat may have been impacted by landowners is a broad generalization and an irrelevant comparison.   In my case this is not the case, as is true in many other places, and you cannot claim that your impacts are legitimate merely because other impacts occur. Your impacts stand alone, on their own merits, and you are not excused by the bad behavior of others.   Using your logic, you should be able to toss beer cans on the bank, leave rubbish around and cut down trees for firewood just because somebody else does so somewhere else. That’s fallacious logic at best.

I follow the consistency argument and agree but behavior is governed by law whether it occurs on private or public property – though different laws may apply depending on the behavior – for instance some usually can be arrested for ’speeding on your property’ because the law does not apply to private property. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If the ’scaring the wildlife’ arugment were true then most of the official ‘wild & scenic’ rivers in this nation – which are heavily travelled by recreation paddlers – would be completely devoid of wildlife. The reverse is true – once the land is dedicated by recreational use ONLY – the wildlife return and thrive.. and with the exception of certain ’shy’ species become confortable with humans – especially if they are not shooting them. It’s not the presence of the human itself that disturbs most animals – it is WHAT the human is doing and animals *know* that there is risk is hanging around. This is simply not true.  No one said that the riparian zone would become ‘devoid’ of life, and while wildlife may become habituated to some degree, the stresses of human intrusion *remain* to negatively affect populations and vigor.   And that wildlife you may see, which may be habituated, ignores those "shy" species, which are in the majority, which may indeed leave the area altogether, or may simply begin a gradual decline. Our federal lands are managed for *multiple* use with the recognition that humans *will* have impacts, and those impacts are balanced against the benefits which accrue to the public.  Factually, from a political point of view, it would be highly desireable to simply forbid human access to *most* wilderness areas in order to preserve the habitat, but it’s politically impossible to do so, so we instead try to mitigate the impacts we do have.  That’s why permit systems are cropping up on more and more rivers.  The impacts of scale have become clear and limitations are required to preserve the resource.

Indeed – with respect to ‘wilderness designation’, it’s not the paddlers or recreation folks or environmentalists that are fighting it.. it’s the folks that want to build roads and use motors. Impacts from recreation are easily mitigated.. you employ a permit system and if an area has eagle nests.. then you close it off entirely. The right fringe/landowner rights movement is trying to strike down all of these laws.. they want it all wide open … so that power boats, ski doos, etc can you AND the impacts ARE comparative. 100 canoes CAN and ARE compared to 100 ski-doos. One single four-wheel drive can severly damage a trail… and it has become recognized that hikers can do but it’ll take a 1000 of them… so you permit the use.. no 4-wheel and only 10 hikers per day.. etc etc The ‘difficulty’ is that if Colorado actually did what you suggest – that there would be a firestorm and the arugment would be over with very quickly. You would lose big time. Very significant tourism and the public’s perception of being ‘welcome’ are involved. No sane public official would even consider it.. that’ why they’re content to let it be the way it is. Public officials don’t make the decisions,

wrong… if the public doesn’t like the court decision they’ll change the law. The ‘law’ is determined by the legislature which consists of publically-elected officials. the Courts do.   No amount of feverish desire in pursuit of the almighty dollar can prevent me, or someone else from filing a suit in court claiming an improper taking of private property for public use without just compensation. That’s the purpose of the Constitution, to prevent the tyranny of the majority and the infringements of the rights of the individual by the public.

 yep…but even the constition can be ammended if the people want it. If I were to do as I suggest, *something* would happen, either the trespassers would be arrested, or *I* would be arrested for "illegally" preventing them from trespassing, or they would file a suit, or I would.  And as soon as the matter comes to court, the LAW rules, and I am quite confident in the strength of my legal case.

Like I said… if the law in Colorado was rigidly enforced along the lines that you suggest… and paddlers were kicked off of the major streams.. you could expect the law to change – regardless of how the courts feel. When you have a law like they have in Colorado and it’s not enforced.. there is a message in it. Federal Laws can force changes in Colorado law also – and do all the time. In the end… in a democracy… "rights" are decided by the people. You have no "right" to economic activity or even landowner rights if the public that votes disagrees with you. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Regards, Scott Weiser ****** "I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend upon my friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" ****** http://www.dimensional.com/~weiser/ Copyright 1998 by Scott Weiser Under the UCC, by the act of transmitting any commercial e-mail advertisment to this address, you are expressly contracting with me in my professional capacity for a consultation on the ad’s effectiveness and you expressly agree to pay to me the sum of $250.00 for each such consultation within 10 days of my report to the original sending address.  You further expressly agree that all actions for recovery of fees owed shall be subject solely to the laws of the State of Colorado, which shall have sole

… read more »

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Correct, and the point is that *somebody* just might own such places, and you could lose the access in a heartbeat due to the malefactions of one or two individual paddlers. yep – actually this is more common that most folks either know or will admit. In Virginia – The Cowpasture River ( not great whitewater but a really beautify mountain river) is essentially off-limits. Others include Back Creek and the Jackson. Had a little old lady point a long-barreled 45 at our group on the Bullpasture. She wanted us off of "her damned land" NOW! People have been arrested in the past and many others are "warned" by local landowners before they even put in. Interestingly, we *used* to be able to get permission from the landowner group for a number of years and then suddenly we were refused. Not because we had done anything wrong – we ALWAYS sought permission and ALWAYS were polite –  but because 1 landowner out of dozens didn’t want ANYBODY and didn’t care whether they were polite or respectful or anything else. End of story. All of years of carefully trying to not step on anyones toes went for naught. Um….I think this qualifies as a "broad generalization" of the type which Richard was objecting to when applied to paddlers, so I guess I have to object to it when applied to "landowners".   After all, my purpose is not to develop or destroy the resource, it’s to protect it from the damage caused by public use. yep, i erred in the generalization. there is a link however. I don’t buy your ‘protection’ argument. I’ve paddled hundreds of rivers in 30 years of boating and damage, if any, is miniscule compared to cattle, 4 wheelers, local trash dumps, roadside dumps, fishermen – believe it of not!, logging, farming, and industry.

This may be true elsewhere, but the fact that others may cause more damage does not reduce the impacts which boaters cause, and since whatever those impacts are are unnecessary, it’s perfectly proper to prevent them. Actually, of late, many rivers have been saved from damage by pointing out that they are used significantly for recreation. also interesting is that once a River becomes officially protected and becomes a destination for paddlers – the localities reap economic benefit AND the river then becomes essentially off-limits to single-minded proposals that *would* damage it.

If economic benefits were the only criteria perhaps this would be valid.   You do make a valid point that public awareness of the particular value of a particular river can be helpful in protecting the resource, but far too often the negative impacts of public access do more harm than good.   It’s all well and good to say that you, one individual boater, does no identifiable harm, but this ignores the impacts of scale, and when a hundred, or a thousand, or ten thousand boaters use the area, the cumulative impacts become significant.  Just look at the Grand Canyon. It’s a delicate balance of the two, but remember that preserving to pass stewardship on does *not* necessarily mean passing it to the public who want to use the land for recreation. I don’t think it is a ‘delicate balance’ at all. In most cases, it is fairly clear what the landowners intentions are.. you can see it in the way they take care of ( or not ) the land. Recreation does not harm the land on near the same scale as say cattle. A hundred cattle can totally ruin a river bank and turn a clean stream into a mess. A 100 paddlers – even if they all urinated in unison wouldn’t even come close.

But this is true ONLY IF the 100 cattle *do* damage the riverbank. Such impacts are not really comparative in nature.  Negative impacts cause by paddlers are not "better", or "less negative" impacts simply because they are caused by a paddler instead of a cow, they stand on their own, and when those impacts are unnecessary to begin with, they are that much more improper.   Cattle may cause negative impacts, which can be mitigated by proper management practices, but cattle are *necessary* impacts in most cases, because they are what pay the taxes and create the profits that are used to continue to preserve the area.   It’s all well and good to say "cattle-free in 2003" or whatever (though this mostly applies to federal lands) but the bills have to get paid somehow.     I suppose when paddlers fork over the thousands of dollars a year to pay the taxes and maintain the property, then I’ll consider allowing them to trespass.   Until then, their impacts, however slight, are *not necessary* to the preservation of the resource, and therefore they are justifiably banned.  I’am also amused by the ’scaring the wildlife’ argument – somewhat because there may be a ‘hint’ of truth for some species but how many species in the last few decades have been not only ’scared’ but just plain wiped-out because the habitat they lived on was used by the landowner for ‘other purposes’?

Again, you are comparing apples and oranges.  The fact that species and habitat may have been impacted by landowners is a broad generalization and an irrelevant comparison.   In my case this is not the case, as is true in many other places, and you cannot claim that your impacts are legitimate merely because other impacts occur. Your impacts stand alone, on their own merits, and you are not excused by the bad behavior of others.   Using your logic, you should be able to toss beer cans on the bank, leave rubbish around and cut down trees for firewood just because somebody else does so somewhere else. That’s fallacious logic at best. If the ’scaring the wildlife’ arugment were true then most of the official ‘wild & scenic’ rivers in this nation – which are heavily travelled by recreation paddlers – would be completely devoid of wildlife. The reverse is true – once the land is dedicated by recreational use ONLY – the wildlife return and thrive.. and with the exception of certain ’shy’ species become confortable with humans – especially if they are not shooting them. It’s not the presence of the human itself that disturbs most animals – it is WHAT the human is doing and animals *know* that there is risk is hanging around.

This is simply not true.  No one said that the riparian zone would become ‘devoid’ of life, and while wildlife may become habituated to some degree, the stresses of human intrusion *remain* to negatively affect populations and vigor.   And that wildlife you may see, which may be habituated, ignores those "shy" species, which are in the majority, which may indeed leave the area altogether, or may simply begin a gradual decline. Our federal lands are managed for *multiple* use with the recognition that humans *will* have impacts, and those impacts are balanced against the benefits which accrue to the public.  Factually, from a political point of view, it would be highly desireable to simply forbid human access to *most* wilderness areas in order to preserve the habitat, but it’s politically impossible to do so, so we instead try to mitigate the impacts we do have.  That’s why permit systems are cropping up on more and more rivers.  The impacts of scale have become clear and limitations are required to preserve the resource. Those impacts are just as present on Boulder Creek, though to a lesser degree.   The difficulty is that many jurisdictions are relying upon the  *** snip legal rambling **** Pity I don’t own such a parcel…..I could bring this thing to a head quite quickly…. The ‘difficulty’ is that if Colorado actually did what you suggest – that there would be a firestorm and the arugment would be over with very quickly. You would lose big time. Very significant tourism and the public’s perception of being ‘welcome’ are involved. No sane public official would even consider it.. that’ why they’re content to let it be the way it is.

Public officials don’t make the decisions, the Courts do.   No amount of feverish desire in pursuit of the almighty dollar can prevent me, or someone else from filing a suit in court claiming an improper taking of private property for public use without just compensation. That’s the purpose of the Constitution, to prevent the tyranny of the majority and the infringements of the rights of the individual by the public. If I were to do as I suggest, *something* would happen, either the trespassers would be arrested, or *I* would be arrested for "illegally" preventing them from trespassing, or they would file a suit, or I would.  And as soon as the matter comes to court, the LAW rules, and I am quite confident in the strength of my legal case. Regards, Scott Weiser ****** "I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend upon my friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" ****** http://www.dimensional.com/~weiser/ Copyright 1998 by Scott Weiser Under the UCC, by the act of transmitting any commercial e-mail advertisment to this address, you are expressly contracting with me in my professional capacity for a consultation on the ad’s effectiveness and you expressly agree to pay to me the sum of $250.00 for each such consultation within 10 days of my report to the original sending address.  You further expressly agree that all actions for recovery of fees owed shall be subject solely to the laws of the State of Colorado, which shall have sole jurisdiction.

Response:

Correct, and the point is that *somebody* just might own such places, and you could lose the access in a heartbeat due to the malefactions of one or two individual paddlers.

 yep – actually this is more common that most folks either know or will admit. In Virginia – The Cowpasture River ( not great whitewater but a really beautify mountain river) is essentially off-limits. Others include Back Creek and the Jackson. Had a little old lady point a long-barreled 45 at our group on the Bullpasture. She wanted us off of "her damned land" NOW!  People have been arrested in the past and many others are "warned" by local landowners before they even put in. Interestingly, we *used* to be able to get permission from the landowner group for a number of years and then suddenly we were refused. Not because we had done anything wrong – we ALWAYS sought permission and ALWAYS were polite –  but because 1 landowner out of dozens didn’t want ANYBODY and didn’t care whether they were polite or respectful or anything else. End of story. All of years of carefully trying to not step on anyones toes went for naught. Um….I think this qualifies as a "broad generalization" of the type which Richard was objecting to when applied to paddlers, so I guess I have to object to it when applied to "landowners".   After all, my purpose is not to develop or destroy the resource, it’s to protect it from the damage caused by public use.

 yep, i erred in the generalization. there is a link however. I don’t buy your ‘protection’ argument. I’ve paddled hundreds of rivers in 30 years of boating and damage, if any, is miniscule compared to cattle, 4 wheelers, local trash dumps, roadside dumps, fishermen – believe it of not!, logging, farming, and industry. Actually, of late, many rivers have been saved from damage by pointing out that they are used significantly for recreation. also interesting is that once a River becomes officially protected and becomes a destination for paddlers – the localities reap economic benefit AND the river then becomes essentially off-limits to single-minded proposals that *would* damage it. It’s a delicate balance of the two, but remember that preserving to pass stewardship on does *not* necessarily mean passing it to the public who want to use the land for recreation.

I don’t think it is a ‘delicate balance’ at all. In most cases, it is fairly clear what the landowners intentions are.. you can see it in the way they take care of ( or not ) the land. Recreation does not harm the land on near the same scale as say cattle. A hundred cattle can totally ruin a river bank and turn a clean stream into a mess. A 100 paddlers – even if they all urinated in unison wouldn’t even come close.  I’am also amused by the ’scaring the wildlife’ argument – somewhat because there may be a ‘hint’ of truth for some species but how many species in the last few decades have been not only ’scared’ but just plain wiped-out because the habitat they lived on was used by the landowner for ‘other purposes’? If the ’scaring the wildlife’ arugment were true then most of the official ‘wild & scenic’ rivers in this nation – which are heavily travelled by recreation paddlers – would be completely devoid of wildlife. The reverse is true – once the land is dedicated by recreational use ONLY – the wildlife return and thrive.. and with the exception of certain ’shy’ species become confortable with humans – especially if they are not shooting them. It’s not the presence of the human itself that disturbs most animals – it is WHAT the human is doing and animals *know* that there is risk is hanging around. The difficulty is that many jurisdictions are relying upon the

  *** snip legal rambling **** Pity I don’t own such a parcel…..I could bring this thing to a head quite quickly….

 The ‘difficulty’ is that if Colorado actually did what you suggest – that there would be a firestorm and the arugment would be over with very quickly. You would lose big time. Very significant tourism and the public’s perception of being ‘welcome’ are involved. No sane public official would even consider it.. that’ why they’re content to let it be the way it is. Absolutely correct, and only by dialog between landowners and river users can such conflicts be peacefully and properly resolved with benefit to everyone.

I actually agree with the basic premise that no one is guanranteed access to private land because they are engaging in what they perceive as a ‘noble’ activity. Usually, it’s scumballs who cloak themselves with the ‘noble activity’ and then abuse the landowner. We’ve seen it with hunting and to some extent with boating. I’ve always subscribed to the idea that if someone owns the land that *I* need to *ask permission* and if they refuse – they refuse. It is their right. It burns my butt when 99 paddlers are polite and ask permission and then Mr asshole waltz’s in and screws it up for everybody. Folks from the ‘big’ cities are often the worst offenders. For some odd reason, I’ve never been able to understand they think they are ‘entitled’ to treaspass once in the rural landscape. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Regards, Scott Weiser ****** "I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend upon my friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" ****** http://www.dimensional.com/~weiser/ Copyright 1998 by Scott Weiser Under the UCC, by the act of transmitting any commercial e-mail advertisment to this address, you are expressly contracting with me in my professional capacity for a consultation on the ad’s effectiveness and you expressly agree to pay to me the sum of $250.00 for each such consultation within 10 days of my report to the original sending address.  You further expressly agree that all actions for recovery of fees owed shall be subject solely to the laws of the State of Colorado, which shall have sole jurisdiction.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am willing to conceed to Scott that there is a valid interest in these dicussions on this newsgroup, but I do wish I could make the "NOT weiser" boolean search request work on my newsreader client.  The problem I have with these posts is that Scott seems to be preoccupied with preaching legal findings and citing past relevant rulings to paddlers that are responding back with statements like "If I can paddle it, the river is navigable!" and "Just try to stop me!".  Reading these threads is like sitting in a nicely furnished living room watching an acclaimed vet scold his dog by using the following phrase…"Sparky, the reason you should not urinate on the carpet is because the acidic nature of your fluid excrement has an adverse effect on both the optical appearance of this synthetic-based floor covering and also tends to react unpleasantly with the olfactory processes of myself and my house guests. Please, Sparky, give me a reason why I should not confine you to your pre-designated travel container."  Whereas, the more intelligent vet, the person that learns through careful observation would say "Bad Dog, go to your box.", realizing that dogs do not make for good argument.

ROTFLMAO.   What a hoot….I had not thought to compare kayakers to untrainable dogs.   I sort of thought by presenting the evidence in (hopefully) a manner which the average adult could understand, that people would discover the logic involved themselves and make good decisions based upon that knowledge.   I’ve had quite a bit of evidence that this is indeed the case. While you may tire of repetition (as I do), there is a constant stream of people who *don’t* understand and might like to who deserve to be informed of the controversy and the facts surrounding it so that they, too, can make informed decisions. My suggestion is that those who know the material and have made the decision, one way or the other, simply skip the threads altogether and allow those who *are* interested debate the matter with me in peace and quiet.   Unfortunately, those who have seen the material cannot seem to control themselves and insist on insulting me and interrupting valid and interesting conversations among others.  It’s a lot like a high-school student running into a class full of 8th graders and shouting "Hey, teach, shut the **ck up! I’ve heard all this before and you annoy me!" Why can’t those who don’t like the nature of the discussion simply switch off and go for a paddle and leave those who wish to discuss alone? I suspect it’s because such people are violently opposed to my particular argument and see it as dangerous, and decide to do whatever they can to disrupt the flow of information.  It’s a lame attempt at censorship, nothing more, and I’ll tell you here and now it won’t work. I guess what I am trying to say here is that the best communicators are the ones that can tailor a response, argumentative or otherwise, to the intended audience.  Make your point and make it clear.  There is nothing wrong with being a highly intelligent, well versed, individual, but make no mistake…a highly- intelligent, well-versed idiot is still an idiot. Finally, Scott, if you feel the need to reply to this posting, I will assume that you deem me a colleague worth engaging with in meaningful debate.      If your words truly express your feelings about me…

I think you have made a trenchant statement of fact, and I appreciate your candor.  I hope that my reply is likewise informative.  We agree more  than we disagree, but I have a policy about "Shut the **ck UP!" threads, which is that I reply to them with whatever degree of politeness is called for until those posting to the thread….shut the **ck up. Then I return to the adult debates about access issues and the law with those who wish to discuss the issue.  When nobody cares to discuss it anymore, then the thread dies and I retreat to my place under the bridge for a time, until some event stimulates me to begin again, for a new crop of paddlers who may be in need of enlightenment. (Your Previous Posting) <CLIP If you don’t like the course of the conversation, then toddle off and start one of your own instead of sniping at the adults who are having an interesting discussion.   You sound like a three-year-old who’s whining and throwing a temper tantrum because Mommy is ignoring you. <CLIP …then why do you bother post a reply, I personally do not waste my time reasoning with someone that sounded like a spoiled three-year-old.

It’s not for *their* benefit, it’s for the benefit of others, and for my own amusement. If you do repond and I do not, please do not feel bad.  Sometimes I go out and paddle instead of talking about it in this newsgroup.

Good plan. BTW- I apologize for the YELLING in my first post, it was uncalled for.

No problem, I’m a very forgiving kind of guy. Regards, Scott Weiser ****** "I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend upon my friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" ****** http://www.dimensional.com/~weiser/ Copyright 1998 by Scott Weiser Under the UCC, by the act of transmitting any commercial e-mail advertisment to this address, you are expressly contracting with me in my professional capacity for a consultation on the ad’s effectiveness and you expressly agree to pay to me the sum of $250.00 for each such consultation within 10 days of my report to the original sending address.  You further expressly agree that all actions for recovery of fees owed shall be subject solely to the laws of the State of Colorado, which shall have sole jurisdiction.

Response:

Hey, hey. We should be counting our blessings. Suppose Mr. Weiser owned the put-in to the Ocoee or Chatooga?  

Correct, and the point is that *somebody* just might own such places, and you could lose the access in a heartbeat due to the malefactions of one or two individual paddlers. Paddlers need to know about folks like him AND how he thinks. Mr. Weiser is representative of many ‘landowner rights’ advocates some of whom also belong to the ‘Wise Use’ groups. They usually not only want to keep paddlers off the rivers but they want to develop their land in any way they please even if it destroys natural resources.

Um….I think this qualifies as a "broad generalization" of the type which Richard was objecting to when applied to paddlers, so I guess I have to object to it when applied to "landowners".   After all, my purpose is not to develop or destroy the resource, it’s to protect it from the damage caused by public use. Some folks think if they own land that it ‘ALL MINE’ and I can do with it what I want while others see themselves as temporary stewards responsible for passing the land on to others to also will practice stewardship.

It’s a delicate balance of the two, but remember that preserving to pass stewardship on does *not* necessarily mean passing it to the public who want to use the land for recreation. It is a significant movement and unless paddlers and others become involved and pay attention – you’ll see more and more rivers placed off-limits. I’m amazed that if Colorado Law is what Mr. Weiser sez it is that ANY rivers out there can be accessed legally. Something doesn’t fit. I wonder how popular rivers fare on the access issue in that state.

The difficulty is that many jurisdictions are relying upon the Attorney General’s opinion of the effects of changing the definition of "premises", including the state Department of Natural Resources, which leads to inconsistent enforcement of the law and a misunderstanding of the law itself.   The issue is still unresolved because no case has been brought to overturn the AG’s opinion and confirm the Emmert Court’s decision.   I hope it won’t come to that, because such a ruling would *shut down* public recreational use of most of the important recreational waters of the state, including the Number section of the Arkansas, which, while most of it is on BLM or Forest Service land, is criss-crossed by private "inholdings", any one of which could choose at any time to prohibit trespass and thereby destroy the ability to complete the float at all, since there’s no way to egress at the closed properties. This is why I propose a system which allows the state to, in this example, *condemn* a recreational easement if necessary to assure continued access to the entire run.  But the essential part is that the state must *pay for* the access.   After all, commercial whitewater recreation on the Arkansas is a multi-million dollar industry, which makes that easement quite valuable. I’ve suggested before the possibility that a landowner who owns a strip of land under the river somewhere in the middle of the popular section could simply take photos of every commercial raft which passes by in a season, identify the outfitter, count the number of heads and send them a bill at, say, $5.00 a head for a "trespass fee."    I imagine this would get the attention of the recreational community rather quickly. Pity I don’t own such a parcel…..I could bring this thing to a head quite quickly…. The thread has been excellent raising awareness  and I’ll bet more than a few now realize how important it is to contribute/join the AWA who works on behalf paddlers on access issues.

Absolutely correct, and only by dialog between landowners and river users can such conflicts be peacefully and properly resolved with benefit to everyone. Regards, Scott Weiser ****** "I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend upon my friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" ****** http://www.dimensional.com/~weiser/ Copyright 1998 by Scott Weiser Under the UCC, by the act of transmitting any commercial e-mail advertisment to this address, you are expressly contracting with me in my professional capacity for a consultation on the ad’s effectiveness and you expressly agree to pay to me the sum of $250.00 for each such consultation within 10 days of my report to the original sending address.  You further expressly agree that all actions for recovery of fees owed shall be subject solely to the laws of the State of Colorado, which shall have sole jurisdiction.

Response:

Shut Up, Shut up, Shut Up!!! For the love of God people please stop this nonesense. Like everyone else I give a damn but I’m F%#$ing tired of seeing all these lame Wesier posts. Dear lord have mercy on our souls!! T.J.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey, hey. We should be counting our blessings. Suppose Mr. Weiser owned the put-in to the Ocoee or Chatooga? Paddlers need to know about folks like him AND how he thinks. Mr. Weiser is representative of many ‘landowner rights’ advocates some of whom also belong to the ‘Wise Use’ groups. They usually not only want to keep paddlers off the rivers but they want to develop their land in any way they please even if it destroys natural resources. Some folks think if they own land that it ‘ALL MINE’ and I can do with it what I want while others see themselves as temporary stewards responsible for passing the land on to others to also will practice stewardship. It is a significant movement and unless paddlers and others become involved and pay attention – you’ll see more and more rivers placed off-limits. I’m amazed that if Colorado Law is what Mr. Weiser sez it is that ANY rivers out there can be accessed legally. Something doesn’t fit. I wonder how popular rivers fare on the access issue in that state. The thread has been excellent raising awareness  and I’ll bet more than a few now realize how important it is to contribute/join the AWA who works on behalf paddlers on access issues.

I will go against the spirit of my original post and add a few more coals to the fire. Larry, you make a good point here.  It is important that people reading this newsgroup realize the opinions of Scott and landowners like him.  I do admit that I skimmed over the legal content of your posting pretty lightly, because I myself (speaking only for myself) do not give much consideration to written law while paddling.  Not to say that I am a scofflaw, I just rely on simple common sense and judgement when leaving the city for a relaxing paddling trip.  In my opinion, many access laws are on the books for liability reasons.  There is a certain river here in the Southeast, that is officially banned from access.  I have been told by local law enforcement officials that they do not particularly mind paddlers on the river, nor do they bother them if the right attitude is excercised by the group.  The law was enacted to protect the state in the event of an unforseen accident.  When I paddle, I paddle until told not to.  If a local landowner expresses their concern in my paddling, I respect their wishes.  If I should get arrested and am legally "in the wrong", I pay my fine and do not visit that particular area again. This approach has not failed me yet. Mutual respect goes quite a long way here in the Southeast.  Maybe things are different in Colorado, I really do not know.  I am not saying we should feel that we have the right to paddle anywhere.  I am simply saying that 9 times out of ten, if you are not making a problem for anyone, people usually do not make problems for you.  If Mr. Weiser’s family property on Boulder Creek contains a fence to control livestock, and by Colorado law they have a right to maintain that fence, then I would say paddling that section does impose a problem on someone, so it shold be avoided.  It is quite possible that if there was no need for the fence, the Weisers may not care if their property is paddled across, who knows, it does not really matter.  If I am paddling down a "legal" creek and a trout fisherman has inadvertantly snagged his line across the river,  I wait, or help, or get out and walk around.  I do not care who is or is not supposed to be there. (enough rambling, I will try to make my point here.) I am willing to conceed to Scott that there is a valid interest in these dicussions on this newsgroup, but I do wish I could make the "NOT weiser" boolean search request work on my newsreader client.  The problem I have with these posts is that Scott seems to be preoccupied with preaching legal findings and citing past relevant rulings to paddlers that are responding back with statements like "If I can paddle it, the river is navigable!" and "Just try to stop me!".  Reading these threads is like sitting in a nicely furnished living room watching an acclaimed vet scold his dog by using the following phrase…"Sparky, the reason you should not urinate on the carpet is because the acidic nature of your fluid excrement has an adverse effect on both the optical appearance of this synthetic-based floor covering and also tends to react unpleasantly with the olfactory processes of myself and my house guests. Please, Sparky, give me a reason why I should not confine you to your pre-designated travel container."  Whereas, the more intelligent vet, the person that learns through careful observation would say "Bad Dog, go to your box.", realizing that dogs do not make for good argument. I guess what I am trying to say here is that the best communicators are the ones that can tailor a response, argumentative or otherwise, to the intended audience.  Make your point and make it clear.  There is nothing wrong with being a highly intelligent, well versed, individual, but make no mistake…a highly- intelligent, well-versed idiot is still an idiot. Finally, Scott, if you feel the need to reply to this posting, I will assume that you deem me a colleague worth engaging with in meaningful debate.  If your words truly express your feelings about me… (Your Previous Posting) <CLIP If you don’t like the course of the conversation, then toddle off and start one of your own instead of sniping at the adults who are having an interesting discussion.   You sound like a three-year-old who’s whining and throwing a temper tantrum because Mommy is ignoring you.

<CLIP …then why do you bother post a reply, I personally do not waste my time reasoning with someone that sounded like a spoiled three-year-old. If you do repond and I do not, please do not feel bad.  Sometimes I go out and paddle instead of talking about it in this newsgroup. BTW- I apologize for the YELLING in my first post, it was uncalled for. SYOTR (well maybe 99.9% of you) -Craig

Response:

From, Mick "Better to be paddlin’ hard than hardly paddlin’ "

Response:

I think it’s kind of funny. Near the beginning of the great return of Weiser, everyone was more or less agreeing with him. Now he’s isolated himself against the NG again by posting more to this newsgroup on a few days than I have since I’ve started looking at it.

Of course, the slingers of insults who *start* the threads have *nothing* to do with it…..not… If only the "vocal minority" were able to leave well enough alone, then perhaps these pyrotechnic offshoots wouldn’t happen, but of course, unable to audit their conduct, they just *have* to get a dig in there.   Well, poke me and I poke right back.  You want it to stop, you stop it. Regards, Scott Weiser ****** "I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend upon my friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" ****** http://www.dimensional.com/~weiser/ Copyright 1998 by Scott Weiser Under the UCC, by the act of transmitting any commercial e-mail advertisment to this address, you are expressly contracting with me in my professional capacity for a consultation on the ad’s effectiveness and you expressly agree to pay to me the sum of $250.00 for each such consultation within 10 days of my report to the original sending address.  You further expressly agree that all actions for recovery of fees owed shall be subject solely to the laws of the State of Colorado, which shall have sole jurisdiction.

Response:

Hey, hey. We should be counting our blessings. Suppose Mr. Weiser owned the put-in to the Ocoee or Chatooga?   Paddlers need to know about folks like him AND how he thinks. Mr. Weiser is representative of many ‘landowner rights’ advocates some of whom also belong to the ‘Wise Use’ groups. They usually not only want to keep paddlers off the rivers but they want to develop their land in any way they please even if it destroys natural resources. Some folks think if they own land that it ‘ALL MINE’ and I can do with it what I want while others see themselves as temporary stewards responsible for passing the land on to others to also will practice stewardship. It is a significant movement and unless paddlers and others become involved and pay attention – you’ll see more and more rivers placed off-limits. I’m amazed that if Colorado Law is what Mr. Weiser sez it is that ANY rivers out there can be accessed legally. Something doesn’t fit. I wonder how popular rivers fare on the access issue in that state. The thread has been excellent raising awareness  and I’ll bet more than a few now realize how important it is to contribute/join the AWA who works on behalf paddlers on access issues.

Response:

I apologize in advance, but there really is no diplomatic way to state this… ENOUGH WITH THE DAMN ACCESS DEBATE THREADS!

Thank you for that trenchant commentary. I am a kayaker.  I view and post to this newsgroup in order to keep abreast of new happenings in the sport I love.

And access debates have nothing to do with your sport?   Boy, are you deluded. And just what makes you think that anyone else is obliged to give a rodent’s fundamental orifice about why YOU choose to participate here or what YOU like or want? When I see three postings (or threads) involving a river access issue, I think "Good debate, there have been some valid issues presented here".  When I see thirty posts, mostly by one individual, I think "These (expletive’in) people have nothing better to do with their time."

Well, I do rather enjoy jousting with the fine folks here…and the Netwits too.  It’s my time to waste though, so what’s your beef? Remember, I only post in reply to a query or discussion from someone else who, axiomatically, *is* interested in the subject. Please, If you are absolutely hot-and-bothered to the point that you are treating this news group like your own personal chat-room, I understand…But keep it private, e-mail is really an ideal medium for this type of thing. Don’t clog this otherwise interesting group with twenty different post that are essentially the same in content.

Clog the group?   Have you ever heard of a concept called the "delete" key?  How about the "down arrow" key?  Both of them will allow you to completely bypass any discussion which might cause consternation and confusion in your tiny mind. There’s and even better one….it’s called the "OFF" switch.  Use it in good health, but USE it. If the posts are the same in content, it’s because others keep asking the same questions, and as long as they do, I’ll keep responding to them because it’s the polite thing to do. For the record, Yes, I do now know that Scott Weiser(sp?) is very familiar with private domain laws in Colorado and he would prefer that kayakers show a little more respect towards his family’s legal wishes.  I also know that there are a lot of disrespectful boaters out there that believe once the water droplet leaves the cloud, it is there God-given right to use it at their convenience.  Well folks, these are things I learned in the first few posts. I can see both sides of the argument, but really do not give a flying (expletive)!

And so you would impose your will on everyone else, some of whom might be interested, simply because you don’t have the wit to skip a thread. How very altruistic of you.  If you have any other opinions that you think I am interested in past that point, know that I am not.  If any of you involved in this thread think of any other gems that need to be discussed pertaining to this topic. Please, WRITE YOUR (EXPLETIVE’IN) CONGRESSMAN OR SHUT THE (EXPLETIVE) UP!

Let me see if I can put this delicately……No. If you don’t like the course of the conversation, then toddle off and start one of your own instead of sniping at the adults who are having an interesting discussion.   You sound like a three-year-old who’s whining and throwing a temper tantrum because Mommy is ignoring you. Grow up and act like an adult. Regards, Scott Weiser ****** "I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend upon my friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" ****** http://www.dimensional.com/~weiser/ Copyright 1998 by Scott Weiser Under the UCC, by the act of transmitting any commercial e-mail advertisment to this address, you are expressly contracting with me in my professional capacity for a consultation on the ad’s effectiveness and you expressly agree to pay to me the sum of $250.00 for each such consultation within 10 days of my report to the original sending address.  You further expressly agree that all actions for recovery of fees owed shall be subject solely to the laws of the State of Colorado, which shall have sole jurisdiction.

Response:

I think it’s kind of funny. Near the beginning of the great return of Weiser, everyone was more or less agreeing with him. Now he’s isolated himself against the NG again by posting more to this newsgroup on a few days than I have since I’ve started looking at it. "Regards," Sam Glover

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You know, I agree with just about everything Scott said in this post. Nobody forces you to read every article on the newsgroup.  Just skip over the threads you don’t like.  I know we’ve gone over this subject a zillion times, but apparently we keep getting new people in the group who are not aware of the differences in access laws from place to place.  Some of these people want argue with Scott, but it really won’t do them any good–they can’t change the laws of the state of Colorado. They do, however, learn from the exchanges.  And for every person who posts in the thread, there are at least ten who are reading it and learning from it.  If paddlers improve their behaviour wrt access, then maybe some irate landowners who have the power to block access to put-ins or even to the entire river may decide that paddlers aren’t so bad.  If these threads improve our collective behaviour enough that the closure of just one river is avoided, then it will be worthwhile.

Well said. I do take issue with one of Scott’s statements, though. Remember, I only post in reply to a query or discussion from someone else who, axiomatically, *is* interested in the subject. Scott, you were the first poster on this subject.  So one out of the dozens of your posts was NOT a repy.  (OK, I may be picking at straws there, but read on.)  Also, just the other day, you replied to a post that was completely unrelated (i.e. had nothing to do with access), and did so in a manner that seemed (to me) aimed at starting another big thread.  Hence, you do not ONLY post to reply to questions about access, although I would agree that the vast majority of your posts are valid replies.  If you had said that you "usually" or "generally only reply… then I would have no argument with your statement.

Well, you’ve got me there.  I admit to priming the pan from time to time, but you can hardly blame me when the flash occurs.   It’s possible for everyone to simply ignore my flashy lures, but it’s also highly unlikely, as I have discovered, and so I take advantage of that phenomenon to stimulate debate, and this has been another interesting and lively debate, and, as you so succintly said, some people learned something new.  Whether they like what they learned, or agree with it is unimportant, what’s important is that they have had their horizons expanded, which is *always* a good thing. Regards, Scott Weiser ****** "I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend upon my friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" ****** http://www.dimensional.com/~weiser/ Copyright 1998 by Scott Weiser Under the UCC, by the act of transmitting any commercial e-mail advertisment to this address, you are expressly contracting with me in my professional capacity for a consultation on the ad’s effectiveness and you expressly agree to pay to me the sum of $250.00 for each such consultation within 10 days of my report to the original sending address.  You further expressly agree that all actions for recovery of fees owed shall be subject solely to the laws of the State of Colorado, which shall have sole jurisdiction.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I apologize in advance, but there really is no diplomatic way to state this… ENOUGH WITH THE DAMN ACCESS DEBATE THREADS! I am a kayaker.  I view and post to this newsgroup in order to keep abreast of new happenings in the sport I love. When I see three postings (or threads) involving a river access issue, I think "Good debate, there have been some valid issues presented here".  When I see thirty posts, mostly by one individual, I think "These (expletive’in) people have nothing better to do with their time." Please, If you are absolutely hot-and-bothered to the point that you are treating this news group like your own personal chat-room, I understand…But keep it private, e-mail is really an ideal medium for this type of thing. Don’t clog this otherwise interesting group with twenty different post that are essentially the same in content. For the record, Yes, I do now know that Scott Weiser(sp?) is very familiar with private domain laws in Colorado and he would prefer that kayakers show a little more respect towards his family’s legal wishes.  I also know that there are a lot of disrespectful boaters out there that believe once the water droplet leaves the cloud, it is there God-given right to use it at their convenience.  Well folks, these are things I learned in the first few posts. I can see both sides of the argument, but really do not give a flying (expletive)!  If you have any other opinions that you think I am interested in past that point, know that I am not.  If any of you involved in this thread think of any other gems that need to be discussed pertaining to this topic. Please, WRITE YOUR (EXPLETIVE’IN) CONGRESSMAN OR SHUT THE (EXPLETIVE) UP! By the way, if any of you would like to paddle this weekend, let me know Let me out of this concrete jungle, -Craig "no playboat yet" Geist

You better watch out buddy … you started a new possible deadly feud here … you better know that Mr. Weiser is a very fast typist, commands the English language like no other, is an expert of all laws of the king’s land, he is a sharp shooter (he is also a gunsmithlike expert) and a land "king size" owner. You are doomed my friend! Scotty will beam your tired sorry paddling ass up! PS: I really felt sorry for the incident and for the two idiots that went after Mr. Weiser’s mother but this is to much! Fred Fred Mechini Visit my homepage  http://pluto.njcc.com/~fmec/Welcome.html A WEB PAGE DEDICATED TO OLYMPIC SPRINT KAYAK

Response:

You know, I agree with just about everything Scott said in this post. Nobody forces you to read every article on the newsgroup.  Just skip over the threads you don’t like.  I know we’ve gone over this subject a zillion times, but apparently we keep getting new people in the group who are not aware of the differences in access laws from place to place.  Some of these people want argue with Scott, but it really won’t do them any good–they can’t change the laws of the state of Colorado. They do, however, learn from the exchanges.  And for every person who posts in the thread, there are at least ten who are reading it and learning from it.  If paddlers improve their behaviour wrt access, then maybe some irate landowners who have the power to block access to put-ins or even to the entire river may decide that paddlers aren’t so bad.  If these threads improve our collective behaviour enough that the closure of just one river is avoided, then it will be worthwhile. I do take issue with one of Scott’s statements, though. Remember, I only post in reply to a query or discussion from someone else who, axiomatically, *is* interested in the subject.

Scott, you were the first poster on this subject.  So one out of the dozens of your posts was NOT a repy.  (OK, I may be picking at straws there, but read on.)  Also, just the other day, you replied to a post that was completely unrelated (i.e. had nothing to do with access), and did so in a manner that seemed (to me) aimed at starting another big thread.  Hence, you do not ONLY post to reply to questions about access, although I would agree that the vast majority of your posts are valid replies.  If you had said that you "usually" or "generally only reply… then I would have no argument with your statement. -Paul

Response:

I apologize in advance, but there really is no diplomatic way to state this… ENOUGH WITH THE DAMN ACCESS DEBATE THREADS! I am a kayaker.  I view and post to this newsgroup in order to keep abreast of new happenings in the sport I love. When I see three postings (or threads) involving a river access issue, I think "Good debate, there have been some valid issues presented here".  When I see thirty posts, mostly by one individual, I think "These (expletive’in) people have nothing better to do with their time." Please, If you are absolutely hot-and-bothered to the point that you are treating this news group like your own personal chat-room, I understand…But keep it private, e-mail is really an ideal medium for this type of thing. Don’t clog this otherwise interesting group with twenty different post that are essentially the same in content. For the record, Yes, I do now know that Scott Weiser(sp?) is very familiar with private domain laws in Colorado and he would prefer that kayakers show a little more respect towards his family’s legal wishes.  I also know that there are a lot of disrespectful boaters out there that believe once the water droplet leaves the cloud, it is there God-given right to use it at their convenience.  Well folks, these are things I learned in the first few posts. I can see both sides of the argument, but really do not give a flying (expletive)!  If you have any other opinions that you think I am interested in past that point, know that I am not.  If any of you involved in this thread think of any other gems that need to be discussed pertaining to this topic. Please, WRITE YOUR (EXPLETIVE’IN) CONGRESSMAN OR SHUT THE (EXPLETIVE) UP! By the way, if any of you would like to paddle this weekend, let me know Let me out of this concrete jungle, -Craig "no playboat yet" Geist

Response:

Question:

Group A relatively short-time ago, a questionnaire appeared about medication, etc.–I tried to answer it but had a difficult "computer day"–(i..e. couldn’t send it via trumpet news reader. Given that, is there any way that I can view the results of this survey??–could it be posted to the group???  Or I would like it via my Thanks!! chief

Response:

: A relatively short-time ago, a questionnaire appeared about medication, : etc.–I tried to answer it but had a difficult "computer day"–(i..e. couldn’t : send it via trumpet news reader. : : Given that, is there any way that I can view the results of this : survey??–could it be posted to the group???  Or I would like it via my Hi Chief, That survey was not exactly a *survey*, but rather a means of sharing our collective experience with a variety of therapies, medications, and coping techniques. A copy of the questionnaire follows for anyone who would like to give it a try. So far, about 80 people have tried this and the feedback has been mostly positive. In my own case, it proved helpful with finding appropriate and effective medications, which I have been exploring with the guidance of a doctor. One of the best sources for help these days is the anxiety clinics appearing in major metropolitan hospitals. Some doctors specializing in anxiety and panic disorders are really beginning to understand such disorders and how to treat them. Most other doctors, however, are still very unfamiliar with anxiety and panic disorders. Be cautious about independant clinics that are not associated with a hospital.                                         Best Wishes,                                         Arthur        A Questionnaire of Symptoms and Treatments             for Anxiety and Panic Disorders Introduction: This is a questionnaire regarding the symptoms and treatments associated with anxiety and panic disorders. If you fill out this questionnaire and send it to confidential database with the responses of others. Based on case by case similarities, a private report will be generated for your specific case which will suggest treatments that other related cases have found helpful. This private report will be sent to you via e-mail so that you and your doctor may explore such treatments at your discretion. There is no fee associated with this service. The only public reports that may be posted in future would regard general observations of the many cases and will not include names or data specific to any one case. Processing of all questionnaires and generation of reports have no professional certification in medicine, psychiatry, or psychology. I am, however, a fellow sufferer of panic disorder and am applying my background in science and computing to help us find relief from chronic anxiety and panic. This effort is driven by the current lack of adequate diagnostics for anxiety and panic disorders. Instructions: If you have ever experienced an anxiety or panic disorder, please fill out this questionnaire. Even if you consider yourself recovered, please fill out this questionnaire as best as you can remember your experiences. Enter your answers to the right of each question or item. Answers do not have to be precise, simply an approximate guess will do. Do not to focus on your worst or last attack, but consider your attacks in general as you answer these questions. When finished, please e-mail (DO NOT POST) your completed completely confidential. General Questions: Please indicate your Sex (M/F). At what Age do you believe your anxiety or panic disorder began? How long ago was your last anxiety or panic attack? (five years ago? three months ago? yesterday?) Currently, do you feel that your life is being more controlled or less controlled by anxiety or panic attacks? (less/same/more) Do you think there is a history of anxiety-panic disorder in your family? (Y/N) The following sentences describe anxiety or panic of different severity. For each sentence, indicate how often you experience such anxiety or panic. 0 = never 1 = several times over several years 2 = several times a year 4 = several times a month 6 = several times a week 8 = several times a day 10 = constantly every day I am nervous, but I can still function. I am very nervous, but I think I can get through the next hour. I am scared, and would like to go home immediately. I am very frightened, and don’t feel comfortable anywhere. I am terrified and feel like I’m about to pass out. I am terrified and feel that I am about to die. I am horrified beyond death-like terror. I am actually "paralyzed" with unimaginable horror. During our anxiety or panic disorder, we may experience a variety of symptoms. These symptoms may occur either during or between attacks. Please rate the severity of which you have experienced each of the following symptoms on a scale of zero to ten. (Blank or 0 = not at all, …, 10 = extremely severe) Fears and Phobias: Agoraphobia (a fear of anxiety or panic attacks that often results in a growing avoidance of things or situations) Fear of Being Alone Fear of Being With People Fear of Closed Spaces (Claustrophobia) Fear of Confrontation Fear of Dark Rooms Fear of Diseases (Hypochondria) Fear of Dying Fear of Fear Fear of Food Poisoning or Contamination Fear of God Fear of Going Insane Fear of Heights (Acrophobia) Fear of Help Not Being Available Fear of Humiliation Fear of Living Fear of Open Spaces Fear of Persecution Fear of Public Places Fear of Public Speaking Fear of Responsibility (Performance Anxiety) Fear of Social Diseases (VD, AIDS, etc.) Fear of Social Situations Fear of Snakes Fear of Specific People Fear of Spiders (Arachniphobia) Fear of Standing in Lines Fear of Traveling Psychological Sensations: Anger Anxiety (In Certain Situations) Anxiety (Generalized, Anytime) Anxiety (School, Work, Career) Anxiety (Family) Anxiety (Friends) Anxiety (Romance) Compulsive or Overly Repetitive Behavior Concentration Difficulty Chronic Nightmares Chronic Worrying Crying Depression Derealisation (Feeling of Unreality) Depersonalisation Dissociation Eating Disorder (Bulimia, Anorexia) Eating Disorder (Compulsive, Binge) Escape into Fantasy Feelings of Guilt Feelings of Persecution (present tense) Hopelessness Housebound Low Self-Esteem Memory Problems (Short Term) Memory Problems (Long Term) Mood Swings Obsessive Thinking Panic Attacks (In Certain Situations) Panic Attacks (Random, Anytime) Recurring Memories of Traumatic Event Self Abuse (Bruising, Cutting, etc.) Suicidal Thoughts Physical Sensations: Headaches Craving for Alcohol Insomnia (Trouble Getting to Sleep) Sleepiness (During Awake Hours) Dizziness or Vertigo Light-headedness Fainting (Actually Passing Out) Temporary Paralysis Easily Startled (Jumpy) Allergies Dry Eyes Watery Eyes Overly Sensitive to Sunlight Visual Disturbances Burning or Pressure Around Eye or Nose Area Overly Sensitive to Odors Sinus Congestion Overly Sensitive to Noise Ringing in Ears Dry Mouth Dehydration (Often Thirsty) Breathing Difficulties (Hyperventilating, etc.) Feeling of Abnormal Heartbeat Chest Pains Appetite Loss Appetite Gain Weight Loss Weight Gain Nausea Intestinal Pains (Irritable Bowel Syndrome) Diarrhea Joint Pain Muscular Pain Muscular Tension Muscular Tics, Twitches, or Spasms Weakness in Arms or Legs Overly Sensitive to The Way Things Feel (Tactile) Uncontrollable Shaking or Trembling Unsteadiness Cold, Clammy Skin Cold Extremities (Hands or Feet) Cold Chills Sweating Hot Flashes Numbness in Arms or Legs "Pins and Needles" Sensation Itching Excema and Rashes Fatigue (Tired, Low Energy) Hyperness (Too Much Energy) Erratic Blood Sugar (Hypoglycemia) Reduced Resistance to Colds or Viruses If you have experience with symptoms not listed here (fears, psychological or physical sensations), please list them below along with a severity from zero to ten. Please rate your experience of each of the following treatments on a scale of -10, …, 0, …, +10. (-10 = very negative reaction to treatment, …, blank or 0 = have not tried or not at all helpful, …, 10 = extremely helpful) Medications and Supplements: Acetaminophen (Tylenol) Atenolol Ativan Buspar Buspirone Clonazepam (Rivotril, Klonopin) Colofac (Mebervine) Desipramine DHEA Effexor (venlafaxine) Fluanxol (Flupenthixol) GABA Gammanil (Lofepramine) GLS Gravol Halcion Haloperidol Herbal Suppliments Ibuprofen (Advil) Imipramine Inderal (Propranalol) Kava Kava L-Tryptophan (Tryptan) Lecithin Lectopam Librium Lorazepam Ludiomil Lustral (Setraline hydrochloride) Luvox (fluvoxamine) Magnesium Oxide Melatonin Modulon Motilium Nardil Nortriptyline (Aventyl) Pantothenic Acid Parlodal (Bromocriptine) Parnate Paxil (Paroxetine, Seroxat) Prothiaden (Dothiepin hydrochloride) Prozac (fluoxetine) Serax Serzone (Nefazodone) Thyroid Hormone Valerian Valium Vitamin B Complex Vitamin B12 Vitamin C Wellbutrin Xanax (Alprazolam) Zantac Zoloft (sertraline) Psychological Therapies: Behavioral Therapy Biofeedback Cognitive Therapy Cognitive Behavioral Therapy Counseling or Social Work Group Therapy Hypnotic Psychotherapy Hypnotic Suggestion Positive Thoughts Psychotherapy (Gestalt or Psychoanalysis) Support Group Other: Acupuncture Adjusting Lifestyle (School, Work, Career) Adjusting Lifestyle (Family) Adjusting Lifestyle (Friends) Adjusting Lifestyle (Romance) Breathing Exercises Chiropractic Confronting Fears Discovering or Expressing True Self Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing (EMDR) Faith, Religion, or Spiritual Pursuits Gardening Physical Exercise Planned or Controlled Diet Playing with Children or Pets Homeopathy Laughter Massage Meditation (Deep Relaxation, Yoga, … read more »

Response: