Question:

Fred, andrew, now LyndaNP, always somebody obsessively flooding this poor NG.with CROSSPOSTS!

Does lynda np really have bipolar depression?  Anyway depression is part of bipolar so I suppose it is ok for her to post to the depression group.  But it is very VERY dangerous to medicate bipolar depression the same way you medicate plain old depression. (if there is such a thing)  I say this because some doktors in research think that reoccurring depression is on the bipolar spectrum. Diana has schizoaffective disorder and you have not complained about here being over there, or have you?

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I think it says a great deal. We’re looking at direct reflections back to the self appointed monopolizer of the any ngs she wishes to join. Moll

Then, you may want to check out your ISP’s TOS because lots of you are going to get reported for usenet abuse. if the self appointed monopolizer is abusing her service, report her; if not, kill file her but all of you jerks who do nothing more than repost her articles are no better than she is–in terms of signal to noise, it isn’t she who’s producing the noise. — Love is a fruit in season at all times, and within reach of every hand.                Mother Teresa http://home.gwi.net/~mdmpsyd/index.htm for mail remove PETERHOOD69

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I think in this case it goes way beyond monopolizing, because the NEW  NG isnt a bipolar NG. its the much beleaguered,  alt.support. depression.medication, for sufferers of depression, that …This PARTY, suffering bipolar disorder is obsessively flooding with posts also CROSSPOSTED  to the bipolar support groups, DAILY, as in every day, she floods us with 20 NEW threads crossposted to the bipolar NG. If she was a sufferer fo depression, her doing what she is doing be monopoloizing.  But being she sufferers an entirely different disorder, while flooding sufferers of distinctly different disorder and then crossposts them too,  this is outright TROLLING. Fred, andrew, now LyndaNP, always somebody obsessively flooding this poor NG.with CROSSPOSTS! … – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think it says a great deal. We’re looking at direct reflections back to the self appointed monopolizer of the any ngs she wishes to join. Moll AboutLyndaNPsXposting wrote nothing: your point is? — Love is a fruit in season at all times, and within reach of every hand.                Mother Teresa http://home.gwi.net/~mdmpsyd/index.htm for mail remove PETERHOOD69

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I think it says a great deal. We’re looking at direct reflections back to the self appointed monopolizer of the any ngs she wishes to join. Moll – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – AboutLyndaNPsXposting wrote nothing: your point is? — Love is a fruit in season at all times, and within reach of every hand.                Mother Teresa http://home.gwi.net/~mdmpsyd/index.htm for mail remove PETERHOOD69

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AboutLyndaNPsXposting wrote nothing: your point is? — Love is a fruit in season at all times, and within reach of every hand.                Mother Teresa http://home.gwi.net/~mdmpsyd/index.htm for mail remove PETERHOOD69

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – http://pharmacology.about.com/health/pharmacology/library/weekly/aa00031 4a.htm Generic Drugs FAQ Prescription drugs can be a costly medical expense, especially for older people and those who are chronically ill. However, in the United States, each state has a law that allows pharmacists to substitute less expensive generic drugs for many brand-name products. Depending on your prescription needs, your savings could be significant. The same reasoning applies also to non-prescription, or over the counter, medications. What’s the difference between a generic and brand-name drug? The names are different, and the price of the generic drug is usually lower than that of a name-brand drug. A generic drug is called by its chemical name; a manufacturer assigns a brand name. Both generic and brand-name products have the same active ingredients. Overall, in a population, the generic drug is just as safe and effective as the brand-name drug. However, generics are not necessarily formulated in an identical manner to corresponding brand-name drugs. Because of that, there can be occasional differences in individual side-effects (nausea, for example; it may be better or worse with a generic versus a brand-name drug). There can also be occasional differences in an individual’s response to a generic drug (compared to the brand-name drug), since formulation differences can affect factors such as how much actually enters the bloodstream after oral administration. Do all drugs have generic equivalents? No. Newer drugs are protected by patents and are supplied by only one company. However, when the patent expires, other manufacturers can produce its generic version. Currently, about half the drugs on the market are available in generic form.  In addition to asking your physician or pharmacist about the availability of a specific generic drug, you can also investigate which drugs are available as generics by using our How To Find Drug Info page. How can I get generic drugs? Talk with your doctor or pharmacist. Explain that you want the most effective drug at the best price. Ask your doctor to write prescriptions for generic drugs when possible. Are there exceptions to the law? Yes. If your doctor writes on the prescription form that a specific brand-name drug is required, your pharmacist must fill the prescription as written. That is, a generic drug cannot be substituted. However, your pharmacist can talk with your doctor about the prescription. Perhaps there’s an acceptable generic drug that your doctor is not aware of. Your pharmacist can compare and evaluate generic and brand-name drugs and may be able to consult with your doctor to provide the right medication at the lowest possible price. Will my doctor automatically prescribe generic drugs? It depends on the physician. You can ask your doctor to write a prescription permitting substitution of a generic drug product when appropriate. You also can ask whether a generic product will be as effective and less costly. Or, you can request that only brand-name products be used to fill your prescriptions. Where can I get more information? See the links below. SOURCE: U.S. Federal Trade Commission; modified and some parts copied, as allowed. Information and links in this article were accurate as of the date near the title of the article. You can search this site or check New Drug Approvals or Drugs in the News for updates or more recent information. Additional InformationFeatured Articles         Other Drug Links Use the back button on your browser to return here. Better yet, bookmark this page Are Generic Drugs Appropriate Substitutes for Brand-name Drugs? – Yes From the American Council on Science and Health. A brief, but thorough, discussion. FDA Approval Process for Generic Medications An excellent explanation of a complicated process. From Stadtlander’s Pharmacy. Generic Drug Review Process The real thing, from the U.S. FDA. An interactive chart that provides an overview of how the FDA determines the safety and bioequivalence of generic drug products before approval for marketing. Generic Drugs From the Merck Manual of Medical Information Home Edition. A clearly-written chapter. Generic Pharmaceuticals: An Inside Look Excellent resource. From the Mylan Institute of Pharmacy, which is associated with generic drugs. Office of Generic Drugs From the U.S. FDA. A good starting point for detailed info. Plain Talk About Generics Very brief article, from Optimal Health. The Value of Generic Drugs Very brief, but a good read. Therapeutic Equivalence of Generic Drugs FDA letter to health practitioners. ABC News also has a story on the letter. Therapeutic Equivalence of Generic Drugs FDA response to U.S. National Association of Boards of Pharmacy. A different letter than the one above. How To Find Drug InfoDrug Manufacturer’s Web SitesNew Drug ApprovalsDrugs in the News IndexPharmacology HomeFor more information or details concerning this topic or specific drugs, try searching this web site. If you still need more info concerning individual drugs, it can usually be obtained by following the tips listed on our How To Find Drug Info page. Drug Manufacturer’s Web Sites are also a good source, especially for newer drugs when other information is less readily available. If you’ve tried and still can’t find the info you need, try posting your question on the Pharmacology Bulletin Board. I personally reply to some questions posted on the BB, but if you have a particular interest or expertise, please, feel free to reply to questions or add your comments or opinions. I regret that I can’t answer email questions, although your comments are always welcome. The Contact Information and FAQs Page is also always available. Disclaimer: The material in this Pharmacology web site is provided for education and information purposes only, and should not replace or substitute for advice from your physician or other health care professional. — LyndaNP Reality isn’t the way you wish things to be, nor the way they appear to be, but the way they actually are. – Robert J. Ringer — LyndaNP Reality isn’t the way you wish things to be, nor the way they appear to be, but the way they actually are. – Robert J. Ringer

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Question:

yes, but if the poster is right that the buildup is basically caused by static electricity, then I’ll just wash the Aerochamber every day with some dishwashing liquid.  Why take chances.  It’s not that big an effort to keep it clean.  I was just curious.

Considering the quality of many of its posts, I would strongly suggest you look for a more reliable reference. Ted

Response:

Ted

Question:

By the manufacturer’s own admission, "discontinuation effects are well-known to occur with anti-depressants".  Mr. Pittasso’s list is a very accurate one, and it’s very unfortunate that your 70 year old father did what he did, I am sure he suffered considerably.  This will happen with all of the SSRI medications if stopped abruptly, particularly after higher doses and long periods of use.  The syndrome WILL end, but not without some degree of torment to the patient. I hope that your Dad does not suffer any permanent injury from having fallen, as is so often the case with elderly people. Gary

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – From http://www.adrugrecall.com/zoloft/effects.html "In addition to the Zoloft side effects that occur while taking the drug, patients who have decided to stop treatment have found that the Zoloft side effects resulting from withdrawal can be even worse. Although all SSRIs carry the risk of withdrawal, with Paxil’s among the worst, Zoloft side effects tend to rank as a close second. Patients who have stopped taking the drug have reported Zoloft side effects from withdrawal that include jolting electric "zaps", dizziness, extreme nausea and vomiting, high fever, abdominal discomfort, flu symptoms, agitation, anxiety, insomnia, aggression, nightmares, tremor, seizure, and confusion. The Zoloft side effects stemming from withdrawal can become so painful that some patients have committed suicide to end their misery. A more common result of Zoloft withdrawal is misinterpretation by the physician and/or patient, with a wrongful diagnosis of regression. " Can someone please tell me the side effects of a fit 70 year old man stopping Zoloft abruptly?  Dad has been taking 100mg of Zoloft for at least 2 years, maybe longer.  He stopped about 2-2 1/2 weeks ago.  Didn’t taper, just stopped.  Yesterday he was taken by ambulance and admitted to the hospital for having fallen off a ladder.  He’s been dizzy, he passed out and vomited.  He’s been sick at his stomach.  In the ER, he started shaking/tremors violently.  Looked like he was convulsing.  After two hours and 2 rounds of Atavan, he stopped.  He thought he was dying  All tests, including CTscan of the head, EKG, blood tests, blood oxygen, chest x-rays were normal.  BP normal except during the convulsions.  I know you shouldn’t stop this medication abruptly but I can’t find on the net WHAT to expect if you do. Thanks, Monica

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Can someone please tell me the side effects of a fit 70 year old man stopping Zoloft abruptly?  Dad has been taking 100mg of Zoloft for at least 2 years, maybe longer.  He stopped about 2-2 1/2 weeks ago.  Didn’t taper, just stopped.  Yesterday he was taken by ambulance and admitted to the hospital for having fallen off a ladder.  He’s been dizzy, he passed out and vomited.  He’s been sick at his stomach.  In the ER, he started shaking/tremors violently.  Looked like he was convulsing.  After two hours and 2 rounds of Atavan, he stopped.  He thought he was dying  All tests, including CTscan of the head, EKG, blood tests, blood oxygen, chest x-rays were normal.  BP normal except during the convulsions.  I know you shouldn’t stop this medication abruptly but I can’t find on the net WHAT to expect if you do. Thanks, Monica

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From http://www.adrugrecall.com/zoloft/effects.html "In addition to the Zoloft side effects that occur while taking the drug, patients who have decided to stop treatment have found that the Zoloft side effects resulting from withdrawal can be even worse. Although all SSRIs carry the risk of withdrawal, with Paxil’s among the worst, Zoloft side effects tend to rank as a close second. Patients who have stopped taking the drug have reported Zoloft side effects from withdrawal that include jolting electric "zaps", dizziness, extreme nausea and vomiting, high fever, abdominal discomfort, flu symptoms, agitation, anxiety, insomnia, aggression, nightmares, tremor, seizure, and confusion. The Zoloft side effects stemming from withdrawal can become so painful that some patients have committed suicide to end their misery. A more common result of Zoloft withdrawal is misinterpretation by the physician and/or patient, with a wrongful diagnosis of regression. "

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Can someone please tell me the side effects of a fit 70 year old man stopping Zoloft abruptly?  Dad has been taking 100mg of Zoloft for at least 2 years, maybe longer.  He stopped about 2-2 1/2 weeks ago.  Didn’t taper, just stopped.  Yesterday he was taken by ambulance and admitted to the hospital for having fallen off a ladder.  He’s been dizzy, he passed out and vomited.  He’s been sick at his stomach.  In the ER, he started shaking/tremors violently.  Looked like he was convulsing.  After two hours and 2 rounds of Atavan, he stopped.  He thought he was dying  All tests, including CTscan of the head, EKG, blood tests, blood oxygen, chest x-rays were normal.  BP normal except during the convulsions.  I know you shouldn’t stop this medication abruptly but I can’t find on the net WHAT to expect if you do. Thanks, Monica

Response:

Can someone please tell me the side effects of a fit 70 year old man stopping Zoloft abruptly?  Dad has been taking 100mg of Zoloft for at least 2 years, maybe longer.  He stopped about 2-2 1/2 weeks ago.  Didn’t taper, just stopped.  Yesterday he was taken by ambulance and admitted to the hospital for having fallen off a ladder.  He’s been dizzy, he passed out and vomited.  He’s been sick at his stomach.  In the ER, he started shaking/tremors violently.  Looked like he was convulsing.  After two hours and 2 rounds of Atavan, he stopped.  He thought he was dying  All tests, including CTscan of the head, EKG, blood tests, blood oxygen, chest x-rays were normal.  BP normal except during the convulsions.  I know you shouldn’t stop this medication abruptly but I can’t find on the net WHAT to expect if you do.

Abrupt cessation of SSRI’s will cause the kind of symptoms your father experienced. A planned taper off  these medications should always be undertaken!! See: http://www.namiscc.org/News/2002/Summer/PaxilWithdrawal.htm

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Thank you both for the information you posted!!  This describes dad’s symptoms exactly. Monica

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Can someone please tell me the side effects of a fit 70 year old man stopping Zoloft abruptly?  Dad has been taking 100mg of Zoloft for at least

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Question:

I had major side effects with Zoloft. I’m now using Welbutrin and things are better for me.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you read Jonathans post dated 5/25/02 ("Hear me out.") you will have a good idea of what I’ve experienced. Right now my doctor is putting me on Wellbutrin and slowly off of Zoloft. But it is in all probability too late to reverse any adverse side effects. What choice do I have, I would rather be how I am than miserable with depression. I know that I wouldn’t have been able to hold a job and get to where I am without the medication. I am close to 50 years old, and in my present job occupation for 15 years which is the same time I’ve been on Zoloft. Before that I was never able to hold a job for longer than 18 months. Very hard to deal with and raise a family that way. With my present troubles (feeling like the medication isn’t working as effectively as before and new stresses at work) I feel very vulnerable. So far I’ve seen some improvement with the combo of Zoloft and Wellbutrin. I’ve been on 100mg of Zoloft for 15 years. Just be glad that is the only problem you are having. If you don’t mind me asking, what long-term and short-term side-effects ahve you experienced? — Regards, .

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I’ve been on 100mg of Zoloft for 15 years. Just be glad that is the only problem you are having.

If you don’t mind me asking, what long-term and short-term side-effects ahve you experienced? — Regards, .

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If you read Jonathans post dated 5/25/02 ("Hear me out.") you will have a good idea of what I’ve experienced. Right now my doctor is putting me on Wellbutrin and slowly off of Zoloft. But it is in all probability too late to reverse any adverse side effects. What choice do I have, I would rather be how I am than miserable with depression. I know that I wouldn’t have been able to hold a job and get to where I am without the medication. I am close to 50 years old, and in my present job occupation for 15 years which is the same time I’ve been on Zoloft. Before that I was never able to hold a job for longer than 18 months. Very hard to deal with and raise a family that way. With my present troubles (feeling like the medication isn’t working as effectively as before and new stresses at work) I feel very vulnerable. So far I’ve seen some improvement with the combo of Zoloft and Wellbutrin.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve been on 100mg of Zoloft for 15 years. Just be glad that is the only problem you are having. If you don’t mind me asking, what long-term and short-term side-effects ahve you experienced? — Regards, .

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I’m taking 200mg per day for 1 yr now.  I’ve noticed that my hands are

shaky and sometimes my arms twitch while in bed.  Is this a normal side-effect of Zoloft?  Anyone else having symptoms like this? I’ve been on 100mg of Zoloft for 15 years. Just be glad that is the only problem you are having.

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For a more serious respone – yes.  My friend is on Zoloft and started having shakiness.  Since she’s on many different drugs we did an extensive search on the web and narrowed down the cause to the Zoloft.  So I yes – it can cause the symptoms you’re having. -Jessica

I’m taking 200mg per day for 1 yr now.  I’ve noticed that my hands are

shaky and sometimes my arms twitch while in bed.  Is this a normal side-effect of Zoloft?  Anyone else having symptoms like this? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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Don’t take Zoloft if you have a dog!!!!!

hehe The Dangers of Bread A recent Cincinnati Enquirer headline read, "Smell of baked bread may be health hazard." The article went on to describe the dangers of the smell of baking bread. The main danger, apparently, is that the organic components of this aroma may break down ozone (I’m not making this stuff up). I was horrified. When are we going to do something about bread- induced global warming? Sure, we attack tobacco companies, but when is the government going to go after Big Bread? Well, I’ve done a little research, and what I’ve discovered should make anyone think twice…. More than 98 percent of convicted felons are bread eaters. Fully HALF of all children who grow up in bread-consuming households score below average on standardized tests. In the 18th century, when virtually all bread was baked in the home, the average life expectancy was less than 50 years; infant mortality rates were unacceptably high; many women died in childbirth; and diseases such as typhoid, yellow fever and influenza ravaged whole nations. More than 90 percent of violent crimes are committed within 24 hours of eating bread. Bread is made from a substance called "dough." It has been proven that as little as one pound of dough can be used to suffocate a mouse. The average American eats more bread than that in one month! Primitive tribal societies that have no bread exhibit a low occurrence of cancer, Alzheimer’s, Parkinson’s disease and osteoporosis. Bread has been proven to be addictive. Subjects deprived of bread and given only water to eat begged for bread after only two days. Bread is often a "gateway" food item, leading the user to "harder" items such as butter, jelly, peanut butter and even cold cuts. Bread has been proven to absorb water. Since the human body is more than 90 percent water, it follows that eating bread could lead to your body being taken over by this absorptive food product, turning you into a soggy, gooey bread-pudding person. Newborn babies can choke on bread. Bread is baked at temperatures as high as 400 degrees Fahrenheit! That kind of heat can kill an adult in less than one minute. Most American bread eaters are utterly unable to distinguish between significant scientific fact and meaningless statistical babbling. In light of these frightening statistics, we propose the following bread restrictions: No sale of bread to minors. No advertising of bread within 1000 feet of a school. A 300 percent federal tax on all bread to pay for all the societal ills we might associate with bread. No animal or human images, nor any primary colors (which may appeal to children) may be used to promote bread usage. A $4.2 zillion fine on the three biggest bread manufacturers. Please send this e-mail on to everyone you know who cares about this crucial issue. — Regards, .

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I’m taking 200mg per day for 1 yr now.  I’ve noticed that my hands are shaky and sometimes my arms twitch while in bed.  Is this a normal side-effect of Zoloft?  Anyone else having symptoms like this?

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I’m taking 200mg per day for 1 yr now.   I’ve noticed that my hands are shaky and sometimes my arms twitch while in bed.   Is this a normal side-effect of Zoloft?   Anyone else having symptoms like this?

normal. — Regards, .

Response:

I’m taking 200mg per day for 1 yr now.  I’ve noticed that my hands are shaky and sometimes my arms twitch while in bed.  Is this a normal side-effect of Zoloft? Anyone else having symptoms like this?

You’re lucky those are the only symptoms you have.  Zoloft has been known to make people go on shooting sprees (Phil Hartman’s wife).

Response:

You’re lucky those are the only symptoms you have.  Zoloft has been known to make people go on shooting sprees (Phil Hartman’s wife).

What a load of shit. — Regards, .

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Question:

How long did withdrawal symptoms stay with you when you came off Zoloft? I’ve been completely off for over 2 weeks and am still getting the electric shocks in the back of my head. Headaches have gone and most of the faintness has too. But I’m still not through with it, I don’t think. I don’t feel depressed off them, I just feel like hell. HOw long is it gonna last? I’m gonna  try and sit it out rather than go back on to stop the physical symptoms. Thanks in advance

Response:

I had similar symptoms when I went off Celexa.  The doctor on call didn’t even know anything about Celexa withdrawal, but I found proof on the net (so I knew I wasn’t crazy).  Anyway, they lasted a long time for me.  They continued to wane and get better, but it was at least a month before I felt more "normal" again.  And I still had minor lingering effects past that. Don’t give up, it will continue to wear off. Good luck, Jessica

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How long did withdrawal symptoms stay with you when you came off Zoloft? I’ve been completely off for over 2 weeks and am still getting the electric shocks in the back of my head. Headaches have gone and most of the faintness has too. But I’m still not through with it, I don’t think. I don’t feel depressed off them, I just feel like hell. HOw long is it gonna last? I’m gonna  try and sit it out rather than go back on to stop the physical symptoms. Thanks in advance

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Question:

Jews don’t  have a man made God. Arab refugees  were intentionally not absorbed into the Arab lands to which they fled, despite the vast Arab territory. Out of 100,000,000 refugees since World War II, theirs is the only refugees group in the world that has never been absorbed or integrated into their own peoples land. Israel makes up I think less than 2% of the people in Arab territory. You can tell who has God. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Zionism Only Exist Through Terrorism The Philosophies of Terrorism and Force Since Zionism relies upon a form of apartheid, it should be led to destroy its foes based upon the principle of apartheid that teaches "survival is for the best". In other words, in order to protect themselves, the superior race has authority to control, by whatever means, the lower, inferior race. This is considered to be a natural law of survival. However, the Zionists also rely on the false claim that the Jews have been persecuted throughout ages, which gives them the justification to behave as they do.  According to the Zionist perspective, the Jew has lived under continual persecution throughout time and therefore he has to raise his sword against all his foes and seek retribution. Begin believed that the Jews would not be able to live peacefully unless they proved that they were the strongest, that they have to be merciless, because being merciful is a sign of weakness and would threaten the existence of the Jews. In addition to natural philosophy and false history, Zionism has tried to achieve the establishment of a so-called "vital domain", which entails the erection of walls and easily defendable borders, or the creation of a natural extension to the State, so as to facilitate its political, economic and ideological movement. Thus, the existence of the State of Israel naturally requires the use of force, because this State is surrounded by the Arabs, who should be sent a clear message that they will be exterminated if they do not accept the Zionist ideology. The philosophy and practices of the Zionists rely on both modern ideas as well as the ancient religion of the Jews. This is because the Jewish religion, as created by the rabbis, remains as a source of inspiration for all those who adopt terrorism and glorify force. The Prophet Ezekeil says, "Do not be merciful, murder everybody, including the young, the old, the virgins, the children and the women, all of whom should be destroyed." It is also mentioned in the Talmud that, "The Jew should murder an infidel because this will make him closer to God." It also says, "Jesus Christ and his disciples are infidels". Yahuthkia says that, "This statement includes all the pagans". On the other hand, Memanoud interprets the words of God, which say "Do not kill" as meaning "God prohibits the killing of the Jews", and in addition, the Jews should "Forgive the non-Jew even he is an atheist, kills an Israeli, or if he has slept with a Jewish woman, as long as he becomes a Jew".  Hence, we have two representations of murder: the first urges the committing of murder, regardless of any ethical or moral reference, and it considers murder a permitted action, without any limitations or restrictions, being applicable for all, men, women, children and the elderly. The second representation supplements the first, because it permits the killing of non-Jews in retribution; this applies to all peoples who are not of the Jews, including Jesus, and all his followers, who are considered to be infidels. Consequently, the world is divided into two parts; the first is the realm of the Jew who stands with a raised sword, and the second is the realm which belongs to all non-Jews, who must be exterminated. This philosophy is a result of the belief that the Jew is the mirror of God on earth, and that therefore in his role as God’s reflection on earth, he is capable of distinguishing between faith and unfaith. Again, this is similar to the image of the Arian, as used in the Hitlerite philosophy of Resenburgh, which divides the world into black and white, or man and beasts, with the role of man being to clear the earth of all fierce and primitive life forms.  The Jewish theology teaches, that the universe will not be beautiful unless it is cleansed by the Jewish sword of all the foes of the Jews; hence murder has become the sole means of achieving this beauty. In searching for this beauty, the Zionists have simplified the first teachings of Zionism, so that they are close to the teachings of the church and political reality, which rely on terrorism. Under these teachings, since most of people are barbarians, the best way to rule them is through violence and terrorism, rather than through democracy or social debates. The wise men can impose absolute racial discrimination, because the world is divided into savages and the chosen few, who have the right to govern the entire world. Thus the Zionists do not simply talk about the kingdom of Jerusalem, the Promised Land, or Utopia, they believe that they have the right to rule the whole world.  As we have already discussed, the Zionists believe that this can only be achieved through murder and war. Indeed, it is argued that war is the beginning and the end, and that it is the way of the strong, while politics is for the weak. The wise men of Zion found their beliefs on history and human experience-they believe that people were originally ruled by brutal, blind force and later by law, which they see as being one and the same thing. Zionism expresses three facts: first, that brutality is an innate part of human nature; secondly, Zionism accepts the brutal side of human history and does not recognize the enlightenment, which emphasizes the right of all peoples to live peacefully. It does not even approach the humanitarian ideas of Russell, Albert Einstein, and Karl Marx, instead it refers to the pre-human phase or the "human cattle" society, where man was ruled solely by instinct, far away from the rational development phases of humanity. Thus Zionism adopts the use of blind instinct and refers to the man of the primitive era, where he was ruled by instinct, while it disregards the development of human societies, rationally, ethically and culturally; and thirdly, because Zionism disregards the development of the human society, it equates modern law with the natural laws of brutal force, thus completing its circle of darkness.  Zionism epitomizes the use of war instead of politics, persecution instead of debate, instinct instead of reason, the old instead of the new, and the Jews instead of all others. As they have said, "We are the source of terrorism everywhere, and all people belonging to various origins and faiths are keen on serving our goals." They state that their policy is one of force and double-dealing because they can see that success can be achieved by force, especially force which is necessary for the politician who must depend upon his genius, violence and cunning. Zionism does not only adopt the use of terrorism, war and force, it also disdains all that is considered to be humane and ethical, thus it glorifies double-dealing and cunning, and considers them innate qualities for the genius. Such a philosophy binds humanity with evil, sheds blood and denies the human standards, which confirms the unity of human society, the development of reason and the promotion of the human culture. This is because racialism denies humanity, sheds blood, monopolizes the human qualities, and generally does not recognize humanity, except as an inferior standard. Ben Gurion rationalized and justified terrorism when he said that the rifle was invented to kill others and that the soldier is the means to carry this out, and that this is the case just as water is for drinking and air is for breathing. Furthermore, that "Armed and powerful people are to be considered as a danger against themselves as well as others, especially when they are more powerful than the others, consequently we should exterminate them. This is the mission of the Hagana members who must always be merciless, bearing in mind that man has never been an angel, but consists merely of flesh and blood, that he may misuse his powers unless he is always under control." Ben Gurion has revived the teachings of Zion’s wise men, and he has rationalized these teachings, proposing that the armed man is a natural phenomenon that develops just as all other natural phenomena do. He teaches that arms are a natural part of the universe, and that the fighter grows as naturally as the plants; this is an idea that is similar in many ways to the belief in the law of the jungle. On another level, he discusses the political economy of force, which, he argues, will turn upon its creator as well as society unless it is channelled through carefully chosen methods, such as terrorism. He proposes that such a policy will achieve balance in the society which otherwise risks being destroyed. This is similar to the power of sexual energy, which can cause negative and destructive psychiatric symptoms, unless it is released. Consequently, in order to preserve both the body and soul, the use of violence is deemed to be a necessity. Respectively, the means to control this energy is through a ’superpower’, which does not suppress violence but rather systematically unleashes it. Thus, according to Ben Gurion, the State is the instrument to control and channel violence to the right path, that, although violence should be regulated, it is essential to the existence of the State.  This philosophy considers violence to be a natural instinct and murder a natural necessity, that man cannot achieve a healthy balance unless he releases his destructive

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Response:

Zionism Only Exist Through Terrorism

Garbage deleted. Why is it that the people using Muslim names in here spout the most insane anti-Jewish trash I have ever had the displeasure to read? If someone was to speak like this in a free country, we’d consider them a bit touched in the head.

Response:

SO, BUBU Why are muslems more entitled to a state of their own thatn would be others? How do arabs live unhindered in Israel? DO tell the answers to these questions o great one

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Zionism Only Exist Through Terrorism The Philosophies of Terrorism and Force Since Zionism relies upon a form of apartheid, it should be led to destroy its foes based upon the principle of apartheid that teaches "survival is for the best". In other words, in order to protect themselves, the superior race has authority to control, by whatever means, the lower, inferior race. This is considered to be a natural law of survival. However, the Zionists also rely on the false claim that the Jews have been persecuted throughout ages, which gives them the justification to behave as they do.  According to the Zionist perspective, the Jew has lived under continual persecution throughout time and therefore he has to raise his sword against all his foes and seek retribution. Begin believed that the Jews would not be able to live peacefully unless they proved that they were the strongest, that they have to be merciless, because being merciful is a sign of weakness and would threaten the existence of the Jews. In addition to natural philosophy and false history, Zionism has tried to achieve the establishment of a so-called "vital domain", which entails the erection of walls and easily defendable borders, or the creation of a natural extension to the State, so as to facilitate its political, economic and ideological movement. Thus, the existence of the State of Israel naturally requires the use of force, because this State is surrounded by the Arabs, who should be sent a clear message that they will be exterminated if they do not accept the Zionist ideology. The philosophy and practices of the Zionists rely on both modern ideas as well as the ancient religion of the Jews. This is because the Jewish religion, as created by the rabbis, remains as a source of inspiration for all those who adopt terrorism and glorify force. The Prophet Ezekeil says, "Do not be merciful, murder everybody, including the young, the old, the virgins, the children and the women, all of whom should be destroyed." It is also mentioned in the Talmud that, "The Jew should murder an infidel because this will make him closer to God." It also says, "Jesus Christ and his disciples are infidels". Yahuthkia says that, "This statement includes all the pagans". On the other hand, Memanoud interprets the words of God, which say "Do not kill" as meaning "God prohibits the killing of the Jews", and in addition, the Jews should "Forgive the non-Jew even he is an atheist, kills an Israeli, or if he has slept with a Jewish woman, as long as he becomes a Jew".  Hence, we have two representations of murder: the first urges the committing of murder, regardless of any ethical or moral reference, and it considers murder a permitted action, without any limitations or restrictions, being applicable for all, men, women, children and the elderly. The second representation supplements the first, because it permits the killing of non-Jews in retribution; this applies to all peoples who are not of the Jews, including Jesus, and all his followers, who are considered to be infidels. Consequently, the world is divided into two parts; the first is the realm of the Jew who stands with a raised sword, and the second is the realm which belongs to all non-Jews, who must be exterminated. This philosophy is a result of the belief that the Jew is the mirror of God on earth, and that therefore in his role as God’s reflection on earth, he is capable of distinguishing between faith and unfaith. Again, this is similar to the image of the Arian, as used in the Hitlerite philosophy of Resenburgh, which divides the world into black and white, or man and beasts, with the role of man being to clear the earth of all fierce and primitive life forms.  The Jewish theology teaches, that the universe will not be beautiful unless it is cleansed by the Jewish sword of all the foes of the Jews; hence murder has become the sole means of achieving this beauty. In searching for this beauty, the Zionists have simplified the first teachings of Zionism, so that they are close to the teachings of the church and political reality, which rely on terrorism. Under these teachings, since most of people are barbarians, the best way to rule them is through violence and terrorism, rather than through democracy or social debates. The wise men can impose absolute racial discrimination, because the world is divided into savages and the chosen few, who have the right to govern the entire world. Thus the Zionists do not simply talk about the kingdom of Jerusalem, the Promised Land, or Utopia, they believe that they have the right to rule the whole world.  As we have already discussed, the Zionists believe that this can only be achieved through murder and war. Indeed, it is argued that war is the beginning and the end, and that it is the way of the strong, while politics is for the weak. The wise men of Zion found their beliefs on history and human experience-they believe that people were originally ruled by brutal, blind force and later by law, which they see as being one and the same thing. Zionism expresses three facts: first, that brutality is an innate part of human nature; secondly, Zionism accepts the brutal side of human history and does not recognize the enlightenment, which emphasizes the right of all peoples to live peacefully. It does not even approach the humanitarian ideas of Russell, Albert Einstein, and Karl Marx, instead it refers to the pre-human phase or the "human cattle" society, where man was ruled solely by instinct, far away from the rational development phases of humanity. Thus Zionism adopts the use of blind instinct and refers to the man of the primitive era, where he was ruled by instinct, while it disregards the development of human societies, rationally, ethically and culturally; and thirdly, because Zionism disregards the development of the human society, it equates modern law with the natural laws of brutal force, thus completing its circle of darkness.  Zionism epitomizes the use of war instead of politics, persecution instead of debate, instinct instead of reason, the old instead of the new, and the Jews instead of all others. As they have said, "We are the source of terrorism everywhere, and all people belonging to various origins and faiths are keen on serving our goals." They state that their policy is one of force and double-dealing because they can see that success can be achieved by force, especially force which is necessary for the politician who must depend upon his genius, violence and cunning. Zionism does not only adopt the use of terrorism, war and force, it also disdains all that is considered to be humane and ethical, thus it glorifies double-dealing and cunning, and considers them innate qualities for the genius. Such a philosophy binds humanity with evil, sheds blood and denies the human standards, which confirms the unity of human society, the development of reason and the promotion of the human culture. This is because racialism denies humanity, sheds blood, monopolizes the human qualities, and generally does not recognize humanity, except as an inferior standard. Ben Gurion rationalized and justified terrorism when he said that the rifle was invented to kill others and that the soldier is the means to carry this out, and that this is the case just as water is for drinking and air is for breathing. Furthermore, that "Armed and powerful people are to be considered as a danger against themselves as well as others, especially when they are more powerful than the others, consequently we should exterminate them. This is the mission of the Hagana members who must always be merciless, bearing in mind that man has never been an angel, but consists merely of flesh and blood, that he may misuse his powers unless he is always under control." Ben Gurion has revived the teachings of Zion’s wise men, and he has rationalized these teachings, proposing that the armed man is a natural phenomenon that develops just as all other natural phenomena do. He teaches that arms are a natural part of the universe, and that the fighter grows as naturally as the plants; this is an idea that is similar in many ways to the belief in the law of the jungle. On another level, he discusses the political economy of force, which, he argues, will turn upon its creator as well as society unless it is channelled through carefully chosen methods, such as terrorism. He proposes that such a policy will achieve balance in the society which otherwise risks being destroyed. This is similar to the power of sexual energy, which can cause negative and destructive psychiatric symptoms, unless it is released. Consequently, in order to preserve both the body and soul, the use of violence is deemed to be a necessity. Respectively, the means to control this energy is through a ’superpower’, which does not suppress violence but rather systematically unleashes it. Thus, according to Ben Gurion, the State is the instrument to control and channel violence to the right path, that, although violence should be regulated, it is essential to the existence of the State.  This philosophy considers violence to be a natural instinct and murder a natural necessity, that man cannot achieve a healthy balance unless he releases his destructive potential through the act of killing. It is interesting to note here that Ben Gurion has ignored the possibility of releasing this latent

… read more »

Response:

Zionism Only Exist Through Terrorism The Philosophies of Terrorism and Force   Since Zionism relies upon a form of apartheid, it should be led to destroy its foes based upon the principle of apartheid that teaches "survival is for the best". In other words, in order to protect themselves, the superior race has authority to control, by whatever means, the lower, inferior race. This is considered to be a natural law of survival. However, the Zionists also rely on the false claim that the Jews have been persecuted throughout ages, which gives them the justification to behave as they do.  According to the Zionist perspective, the Jew has lived under continual persecution throughout time and therefore he has to raise his sword against all his foes and seek retribution. Begin believed that the Jews would not be able to live peacefully unless they proved that they were the strongest, that they have to be merciless, because being merciful is a sign of weakness and would threaten the existence of the Jews. In addition to natural philosophy and false history, Zionism has tried to achieve the establishment of a so-called "vital domain", which entails the erection of walls and easily defendable borders, or the creation of a natural extension to the State, so as to facilitate its political, economic and ideological movement. Thus, the existence of the State of Israel naturally requires the use of force, because this State is surrounded by the Arabs, who should be sent a clear message that they will be exterminated if they do not accept the Zionist ideology. The philosophy and practices of the Zionists rely on both modern ideas as well as the ancient religion of the Jews. This is because the Jewish religion, as created by the rabbis, remains as a source of inspiration for all those who adopt terrorism and glorify force. The Prophet Ezekeil says, "Do not be merciful, murder everybody, including the young, the old, the virgins, the children and the women, all of whom should be destroyed." It is also mentioned in the Talmud that, "The Jew should murder an infidel because this will make him closer to God." It also says, "Jesus Christ and his disciples are infidels". Yahuthkia says that, "This statement includes all the pagans". On the other hand, Memanoud interprets the words of God, which say "Do not kill" as meaning "God prohibits the killing of the Jews", and in addition, the Jews should "Forgive the non-Jew even he is an atheist, kills an Israeli, or if he has slept with a Jewish woman, as long as he becomes a Jew".  Hence, we have two representations of murder: the first urges the committing of murder, regardless of any ethical or moral reference, and it considers murder a permitted action, without any limitations or restrictions, being applicable for all, men, women, children and the elderly. The second representation supplements the first, because it permits the killing of non-Jews in retribution; this applies to all peoples who are not of the Jews, including Jesus, and all his followers, who are considered to be infidels. Consequently, the world is divided into two parts; the first is the realm of the Jew who stands with a raised sword, and the second is the realm which belongs to all non-Jews, who must be exterminated. This philosophy is a result of the belief that the Jew is the mirror of God on earth, and that therefore in his role as God’s reflection on earth, he is capable of distinguishing between faith and unfaith. Again, this is similar to the image of the Arian, as used in the Hitlerite philosophy of Resenburgh, which divides the world into black and white, or man and beasts, with the role of man being to clear the earth of all fierce and primitive life forms.  The Jewish theology teaches, that the universe will not be beautiful unless it is cleansed by the Jewish sword of all the foes of the Jews; hence murder has become the sole means of achieving this beauty. In searching for this beauty, the Zionists have simplified the first teachings of Zionism, so that they are close to the teachings of the church and political reality, which rely on terrorism. Under these teachings, since most of people are barbarians, the best way to rule them is through violence and terrorism, rather than through democracy or social debates. The wise men can impose absolute racial discrimination, because the world is divided into savages and the chosen few, who have the right to govern the entire world. Thus the Zionists do not simply talk about the kingdom of Jerusalem, the Promised Land, or Utopia, they believe that they have the right to rule the whole world.  As we have already discussed, the Zionists believe that this can only be achieved through murder and war. Indeed, it is argued that war is the beginning and the end, and that it is the way of the strong, while politics is for the weak. The wise men of Zion found their beliefs on history and human experience-they believe that people were originally ruled by brutal, blind force and later by law, which they see as being one and the same thing. Zionism expresses three facts: first, that brutality is an innate part of human nature; secondly, Zionism accepts the brutal side of human history and does not recognize the enlightenment, which emphasizes the right of all peoples to live peacefully. It does not even approach the humanitarian ideas of Russell, Albert Einstein, and Karl Marx, instead it refers to the pre-human phase or the "human cattle" society, where man was ruled solely by instinct, far away from the rational development phases of humanity. Thus Zionism adopts the use of blind instinct and refers to the man of the primitive era, where he was ruled by instinct, while it disregards the development of human societies, rationally, ethically and culturally; and thirdly, because Zionism disregards the development of the human society, it equates modern law with the natural laws of brutal force, thus completing its circle of darkness.  Zionism epitomizes the use of war instead of politics, persecution instead of debate, instinct instead of reason, the old instead of the new, and the Jews instead of all others. As they have said, "We are the source of terrorism everywhere, and all people belonging to various origins and faiths are keen on serving our goals." They state that their policy is one of force and double-dealing because they can see that success can be achieved by force, especially force which is necessary for the politician who must depend upon his genius, violence and cunning. Zionism does not only adopt the use of terrorism, war and force, it also disdains all that is considered to be humane and ethical, thus it glorifies double-dealing and cunning, and considers them innate qualities for the genius. Such a philosophy binds humanity with evil, sheds blood and denies the human standards, which confirms the unity of human society, the development of reason and the promotion of the human culture. This is because racialism denies humanity, sheds blood, monopolizes the human qualities, and generally does not recognize humanity, except as an inferior standard. Ben Gurion rationalized and justified terrorism when he said that the rifle was invented to kill others and that the soldier is the means to carry this out, and that this is the case just as water is for drinking and air is for breathing. Furthermore, that "Armed and powerful people are to be considered as a danger against themselves as well as others, especially when they are more powerful than the others, consequently we should exterminate them. This is the mission of the Hagana members who must always be merciless, bearing in mind that man has never been an angel, but consists merely of flesh and blood, that he may misuse his powers unless he is always under control." Ben Gurion has revived the teachings of Zion’s wise men, and he has rationalized these teachings, proposing that the armed man is a natural phenomenon that develops just as all other natural phenomena do. He teaches that arms are a natural part of the universe, and that the fighter grows as naturally as the plants; this is an idea that is similar in many ways to the belief in the law of the jungle. On another level, he discusses the political economy of force, which, he argues, will turn upon its creator as well as society unless it is channelled through carefully chosen methods, such as terrorism. He proposes that such a policy will achieve balance in the society which otherwise risks being destroyed. This is similar to the power of sexual energy, which can cause negative and destructive psychiatric symptoms, unless it is released. Consequently, in order to preserve both the body and soul, the use of violence is deemed to be a necessity. Respectively, the means to control this energy is through a ’superpower’, which does not suppress violence but rather systematically unleashes it. Thus, according to Ben Gurion, the State is the instrument to control and channel violence to the right path, that, although violence should be regulated, it is essential to the existence of the State.  This philosophy considers violence to be a natural instinct and murder a natural necessity, that man cannot achieve a healthy balance unless he releases his destructive potential through the act of killing. It is interesting to note here that Ben Gurion has ignored the possibility of releasing this latent energy through other means, such as sports, arts and community work. The reasoning here is flawed because it does not give any investigation into other possibilities, rather it ignores them because they do not suit the desired objective, the supremacy of the Jews and the annihilation of all other races. Despite this flawed philosophy, the Zionist ideology is able to permeate daily life with continual violence, soldiers and the importance of the State. Hagana itself is a terrorist organization based on its own political and economic principles. A predicament for Zionism … read more »

Response:

Question:

I have just been put on Wellbutrin SR 150 mgs twice a day (morning and night) for ADD and depression symptoms(diagnosed 4 weeks ago).  I tried Ritalin, but it made depression worse, so now I have been on Wellbutrin for 3 days.  My depression is no better and I seem to be lightheaded (in a daze). My son, age 7 (ADHD/ODD/Depression) has also been put on Wellbutrin 75 mgs twice a day, he has been on it three days and does not show much improvement with Depression. He seems to be going around in a daze, but still very emotional.  He is also on Ritalin and Clonidine. He was weaned off Paxil a week ago. Can anyone tell me if this effect of Wellbutrin is common (the glazed look)? Does this wear off??  When does Wellbutrin start to really help??  Also, my son’s appetite has been effected and he does not need that.  He is already underweight. Is the appetite suppression temporary, or a long term effect of medication?  Also, when does the jitteryness and agitation go away?  My son has had an hour and a half of that to deal with at school before he is able to calm down.  The teacher is beside herself during that time. If any of you can help us, I would appreciate it.   Thanks. Penzack

Response:

My understanding from everything I have read and talked to others is fogginess in the head is common and can take up to 2 weeks for the body to adjust to it. The appetite is probably the Ritalin.  That is a normal side effect.  My son has this too, but the Clonadine he takes at nite works well and I let him eat alot then.  He is 7 lbs. underweight. Regina … – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Can anyone tell me if this effect of Wellbutrin is common (the glazed look)? Does this wear off??  When does Wellbutrin start to really help??  Also, my son’s appetite has been effected and he does not need that.  He is already underweight. Is the appetite suppression temporary, or a long term effect of medication?  Also, when does the jitteryness and agitation go away?  My son has had an hour and a half of that to deal with at school before he is able to calm down.  The teacher is beside herself during that time. If any of you can help us, I would appreciate it. Thanks. Penzack

Response:

Hi Penzack: I’ve been on Wellbutrin, and Dexedrine spansule ( long acting ) for six months, and haven’t encountered the side-effects you describe. Wellbutrin takes seven days to build up the blood levels to be effective. One possibility, might be simple anxiety ( that sounds sick ) but anxiety has a way of producing physical symptoms. The wellbutrin has actually helped me to reduce my anxiety. Let me know if I can be of more help. Regards, David. I have just been put on Wellbutrin SR 150 mgs twice a day (morning and

night)

Response:

Can anyone tell me if this effect of Wellbutrin is common (the glazed look)? Does this wear off??  When does Wellbutrin start to really help??  Also, my son’s appetite has been effected and he does not need that.  He is already underweight. Is the appetite suppression temporary, or a long term effect of medication?  Also, when does the jitteryness and agitation go away?  My son has had an hour and a half of that to deal with at school before he is able to calm down.  The teacher is beside herself during that time.

I didn’t take Wellbutrin, my son did.  All I can tell you is it takes time to build up in your system.  The psych said up to four weeks. Mark settled down after a few weeks.  We did find, however, after long term use (two years) Wellbutrin seemed to bring out an argumentative, agressive streak in him.  We had to take him off of it.  He’s the dreamy, inattentive ADHD type, with some depression (although that has thankfully begun to lift, I think with maturity.  He’s beginning to gain some control over his own life, and he’s happier for it.  He’s 18 now) — Ann Illegitimi non Carborundum annbal*at*thecia*dot*net

Response:

Different people have different responses.  It often takes Wellbutrin a while to show any significant benefit–I’ve been on it 4 months now and I’m still seeing changes. I _wish_ Wellbutrin suppressed _my_ appetite.  On Ritalin, before it quit working for me, I managed to lose something like 30 pounds.  Since I’ve been on Wellbutrin I’ve gained that back and maybe a wee bit more. — — –John Reply to jclarke at eye bee em dot net

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I have just been put on Wellbutrin SR 150 mgs twice a day (morning and night) for ADD and depression symptoms(diagnosed 4 weeks ago).  I tried Ritalin, but it made depression worse, so now I have been on Wellbutrin for 3 days.  My depression is no better and I seem to be lightheaded (in a daze). My son, age 7 (ADHD/ODD/Depression) has also been put on Wellbutrin 75 mgs twice a day, he has been on it three days and does not show much improvement with Depression. He seems to be going around in a daze, but still very emotional.  He is also on Ritalin and Clonidine. He was weaned off Paxil a week ago. Can anyone tell me if this effect of Wellbutrin is common (the glazed look)? Does this wear off??  When does Wellbutrin start to really help??  Also, my son’s appetite has been effected and he does not need that.  He is already underweight. Is the appetite suppression temporary, or a long term effect of medication?  Also, when does the jitteryness and agitation go away?  My son has had an hour and a half of that to deal with at school before he is able to calm down.  The teacher is beside herself during that time. If any of you can help us, I would appreciate it. Thanks. Penzack

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have just been put on Wellbutrin SR 150 mgs twice a day (morning and night) for ADD and depression symptoms(diagnosed 4 weeks ago).  I tried Ritalin, but it made depression worse, so now I have been on Wellbutrin for 3 days.  My depression is no better and I seem to be lightheaded (in a daze). My son, age 7 (ADHD/ODD/Depression) has also been put on Wellbutrin 75 mgs twice a day, he has been on it three days and does not show much improvement with Depression. He seems to be going around in a daze, but still very emotional.  He is also on Ritalin and Clonidine. He was weaned off Paxil a week ago. Can anyone tell me if this effect of Wellbutrin is common (the glazed look)? Does this wear off??  When does Wellbutrin start to really help??  Also, my son’s appetite has been effected and he does not need that.  He is already underweight. Is the appetite suppression temporary, or a long term effect of medication?  Also, when does the jitteryness and agitation go away? Thanks. Penzack

Hi, Just wanted to mention here that I am using Wellbutrin SR for smoking cessation.  I was to take 2 pills a day, but had to cut back to 1, as I was getting dizzy spells, and could not sleep at night.  As for my appetite, I am just the opposite, I am gaining too much weight. As for the glazed look, I felt dopey, not tired, but all in all it has helped me in my quest to stop smoking.

Response:

You might want to check out this web page "http://www.mayohealth.org/usp/html/202098b.htm".  It’s a clinical trial overview of the drug.   I’ve been taking wellbutrin for only about 3 to 4 weeks.  When my dose was initially doubled up to 300 mg per day (in 2 doses) boy, did I get some un-nerving side-effects!  Heavy dissiness that would come in waves, feeling quite ‘out of it’, yet being more interactive with others.  Strange huh?  I also noticed that I was having trouble maintaining my tolerance level, ("snapping out" more easily) I believe that this was caused also by the cesasion of paxil over the last couple of weeks as well (withdraw simptoms).   I was also having a great deal of trouble sleeping through the night — 12 to 7, became 2 – 4.   I was very concerned about the side effects, especially the waves of dissiness.  They seemed almost like a rush that would make my nerves tingle and my eyes want to roll back in my head.  After discussing them with my doctor she cut me back to 1/2 doses. I am going to continue with the medication because of its reputation of becoming more effective with less noticeable side-effects as time goes on. If you are concerned by all means talk to your doctor, perhaps he/she may be able to suggest something to help him through this tough time.  I hope that your son (as well as myself) soon start to notice the more positive effects of Wellbutrin. Hang in there.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -You might want to check out this web page "http://www.mayohealth.org/usp/html/202098b.htm".  It’s a clinical trial overview of the drug.   I’ve been taking wellbutrin for only about 3 to 4 weeks.  When my dose was initially doubled up to 300 mg per day (in 2 doses) boy, did I get some un-nerving side-effects!  Heavy dissiness that would come in waves, feeling quite ‘out of it’, yet being more interactive with others.  Strange huh?  I also noticed that I was having trouble maintaining my tolerance level, ("snapping out" more easily) I believe that this was caused also by the cesasion of paxil over the last couple of weeks as well (withdraw simptoms). I was also having a great deal of trouble sleeping through the night — 12 to 7, became 2 – 4.   I was very concerned about the side effects, especially the waves of dissiness. They seemed almost like a rush that would make my nerves tingle and my eyes want to roll back in my head.  After discussing them with my doctor she cut me back to 1/2 doses. I am going to continue with the medication because of its reputation of becoming more effective with less noticeable side-effects as time goes on. If you are concerned by all means talk to your doctor, perhaps he/she may be able to suggest something to help him through this tough time.  I hope that your son (as well as myself) soon start to notice the more positive effects of Wellbutrin. Hang in there.

I am not against Wellbutrin, please don’t take this post that way. I just want to point out that Wellbutrin, like ANY medication or herbal supplement should be tested on you in low doses before you make a decision on whether it is for you. I nearly had a heart attack on 5mg of Wellbutrin.. because of an allergic reaction. My sister stopped eating altogether when they put her on it. Please, everyone, be safe. ~Wendy

Response:

out: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have just been put on Wellbutrin SR 150 mgs twice a day (morning and night) for ADD and depression symptoms(diagnosed 4 weeks ago).  I tried Ritalin, but it made depression worse, so now I have been on Wellbutrin for 3 days.  My depression is no better and I seem to be lightheaded (in a daze). My son, age 7 (ADHD/ODD/Depression) has also been put on Wellbutrin 75 mgs twice a day, he has been on it three days and does not show much improvement with Depression. He seems to be going around in a daze, but still very emotional.  He is also on Ritalin and Clonidine. He was weaned off Paxil a week ago. Can anyone tell me if this effect of Wellbutrin is common (the glazed look)? Does this wear off??  When does Wellbutrin start to really help??  Also, my son’s appetite has been effected and he does not need that.  He is already underweight. Is the appetite suppression temporary, or a long term effect of medication?  Also, when does the jitteryness and agitation go away? Thanks. Penzack Hi, Just wanted to mention here that I am using Wellbutrin SR for smoking cessation.  I was to take 2 pills a day, but had to cut back to 1, as I was getting dizzy spells, and could not sleep at night.  As for my appetite, I am just the opposite, I am gaining too much weight. As for the glazed look, I felt dopey, not tired, but all in all it has helped me in my quest to stop smoking.

Wellbutrin was the first drug that I took for treatment of my ADD and depression. It worked pretty well in the short time that I took it – it really helped my concentration, and I liked the appetite suppression aspect of it since I’m overweight, but my body just couldn’t tolerate it. I got dizzy, sleepy yet hyper at the same time, nervous, shaky, headachey, and just a feeling of sickness and toxicity – a bad taste in my mouth. I put up with it for a while, tried cutting back the dosage, but it only kept getting worse. I think my body just wasn’t excreting it well. Wellbutrin is in a class by itself. It’s not like any other drug. From what I understand, it’s not a reuptake inhibitor, and they are unsure as to what exactly the action is that it takes to make seratonin, norepenephrin and dopamine more available. Although it’s classed as an antidepressant, it actually acts like a stimulant on the CNS. Personally I don’t do too well on stimulants. Low doses of caffiene and dexedrine, ritalin, etc, don’t have much effect. Higher doses start to have a beneficial, calming effect, helping my concentration, etc, but then after a time I start to get sick, dizzy, nervous, headachey, etc etc, and the symptoms get progressively worse, as if it’s building up in my body and not being excreted, and making me sick. But in general I think I have a pretty sensitive system. In all the drugs I’ve tried since (Nortriptaline, Prozac, Effexor) I’ve only ever needed the lowest dose of the drug for effectiveness. I know people who take Wellbutrin and do great on it. I have a young cousin who takes it for ADD and it has had no negative side effects. My ex-husband takes it for alcohol addiction, and he said the only side effect was the loss of appetite. I would say that if the bad side effects, the dizziness and such continue, and you don’t seem to be getting any positive effects, then talk to your doctor about switching to something else. There are many other drugs out there you can try if Wellbutrin doesn’t work. wherever, at primenet dot com wherever you are…there you go.

Response:

I have a 7yr old child who is on Ritalin, Clonidine and Wellbutrin 150mg SR once daily.  It will take up to 4 weeks before your body starts to effectively absorb the medication and then you will start to see results. it is a slow progress, you can’t expect to notice a difference in just a few days.  Just don’t give up.

s.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My 7 yr old was put on Wellbutrin 100mg a day.  We have seen great improvement.  He was taking Effexor for a while and I never did see the change.  With the Wellbutrin, it took probably 1-2 weeks to see a difference.  My son was talking about suicide and how everyone hated him and he couldn’t do anything right.  On the Wellbutrin, I haven’t heard hardly any depressive comments.  It’s been great.  But if you stick with it a while and you can’t tell a difference, try something else.  It’s my opinion that medications effect everyone differently. I have just been put on Wellbutrin SR 150 mgs twice a day (morning and night) for ADD and depression symptoms(diagnosed 4 weeks ago).  I tried Ritalin, but it made depression worse, so now I have been on Wellbutrin for 3 days. My depression is no better and I seem to be lightheaded (in a daze). My son, age 7 (ADHD/ODD/Depression) has also been put on Wellbutrin 75 mgs twice a day, he has been on it three days and does not show much improvement with Depression. He seems to be going around in a daze, but still very emotional.  He is also on Ritalin and Clonidine. He was weaned off Paxil a week ago. Can anyone tell me if this effect of Wellbutrin is common (the glazed look)? Does this wear off??  When does Wellbutrin start to really help??  Also, my son’s appetite has been effected and he does not need that.  He is already underweight. Is the appetite suppression temporary, or a long term effect of medication?  Also, when does the jitteryness and agitation go away?  My son has had an hour and a half of that to deal with at school before he is able to calm down.  The teacher is beside herself during that time. If any of you can help us, I would appreciate it. Thanks. Penzack

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My 7 yr old was put on Wellbutrin 100mg a day.  We have seen great improvement.  He was taking Effexor for a while and I never did see the change.  With the Wellbutrin, it took probably 1-2 weeks to see a difference.  My son was talking about suicide and how everyone hated him and he couldn’t do anything right.  On the Wellbutrin, I haven’t heard hardly any depressive comments.  It’s been great.  But if you stick with it a while and you can’t tell a difference, try something else.  It’s my opinion that medications effect everyone differently. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I have just been put on Wellbutrin SR 150 mgs twice a day (morning and night) for ADD and depression symptoms(diagnosed 4 weeks ago).  I tried Ritalin, but it made depression worse, so now I have been on Wellbutrin for 3 days.  My depression is no better and I seem to be lightheaded (in a daze). My son, age 7 (ADHD/ODD/Depression) has also been put on Wellbutrin 75 mgs twice a day, he has been on it three days and does not show much improvement with Depression. He seems to be going around in a daze, but still very emotional.  He is also on Ritalin and Clonidine. He was weaned off Paxil a week ago. Can anyone tell me if this effect of Wellbutrin is common (the glazed look)? Does this wear off??  When does Wellbutrin start to really help??  Also, my son’s appetite has been effected and he does not need that.  He is already underweight. Is the appetite suppression temporary, or a long term effect of medication?  Also, when does the jitteryness and agitation go away?  My son has had an hour and a half of that to deal with at school before he is able to calm down.  The teacher is beside herself during that time. If any of you can help us, I would appreciate it.   Thanks. Penzack

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Oh Blue, this is so true…. I was perfectly sane (cough cough cough) much however.  I would give my life for him… With Metta & Blessings,  Jehanne "It is good to have an end to journey toward;   but it is the journey that matters, in the end"             Ursula Le Guin

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says… you know, money tends to run in families. Maybe that’s biological too, like there’s a money gene or something. ..Don’t laugh, that’s the way these researchers think. On the lighter side, did you know that having children tends to run in families? If your parents didn’t have children, chances are you won’t either.

Did you know that insanity is hereditary?  You get it from your children. Bluebird oh, is *that* where it came from?

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you know, money tends to run in families. Maybe that’s biological too, like there’s a money gene or something. ..Don’t laugh, that’s the way these researchers think. On the lighter side, did you know that having children tends to run in families? If your parents didn’t have children, chances are you won’t either.

doh… Leslie — Mom always told me I could be whatever I wanted to be when I grew up, "within reason."  When I asked her what she meant by "within reason," she said, "You ask a lot of questions for a garbage man." – Jack Handey Visit My Website! http://www.flex.net/users/tuesday

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it’s CATCHING!!!!!!!

for *real* well, i don’t suppose i’ve ever actually *driven* someone to depression, but i know it’s *really* hard to live with a depressive person, specially someone who wants to prove how unlovable they are. anna xxx

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Owlgirl, Thanks for confirming something I long suspected!  lol Thanks for the chuckle. Brenda

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you know, money tends to run in families. Maybe that’s biological too, like there’s a money gene or something. ..Don’t laugh, that’s the way these researchers think. On the lighter side, did you know that having children tends to run in families? If your parents didn’t have children, chances are you won’t either.

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you know…both my parents (who, nb, are NOT my biologial parents) have depression and are on medication. Same with my ex-de facto, my uncle and aunt, and 3 close rl friends. I could never relate to it, but now, i’ve finally succumbed myself. aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrggggggghhhhhhhhhhh! this can only mean one thing: it’s CATCHING!!!!!!! warn all your friends and family….. owlgirl – who had a shitty aftyernoon, thanx to zoloft withdrawal, but who feels good cos you are all here, and is especially grateful for the posts from Cris/z, Eva Marisa, and kdaly. Thanx.  :)

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Question:

‘Nother meds question– I was just wondering if anyone else has ever taken serzone. I started taking antid*pr*ssants about four years ago, when I hit a colossal d*pr*ssion, and was first prescribed prozac. I stayed on that for about six months, and although the d*pr*ssion remained, it seemed ~slightly~ more controlable; but the amazing thing that seemed to happen with the prozac was that I could actually read again! However, after a while, I started thinking that there must be something better than this. I was still d*pr*ssed, still failing school, still barely functional. So, I went on "The Great Med Quest." I tried everything, and nothing seemed to help me with what I was looking for– something to help me be more functional, and to help me to concentrate enough to be able to read and to focus enough to do my coursework. After ritalin, wellbutrin, zoloft, effexor, and others which I have forgotten, I went back on prozac, because at least I had been able to read when I was on it before. I took it for about a year– going up to sixty and sometimes eighty mg’s a day. I pretended that I was not d*pr*ssed anymore, and I could still barely focus. A little over a month ago I woke up, and realized exactly how d*pr*ssed I was. A couple of days later, I found myself in the h*sp*t*l. I asked my p to change meds, so he said that my options were either serzone or paxil, and that that was it, there wasn’t anything else for me to take. However, the side effects with the serzone seem incredible. I have only been taking it for a few weeks, and pretty irregularly due to the side effects– i.e. if I choose to take it on a given day, I can expect not to be able to drive, walk straight, eat, or sleep for less than fourteen hours. However, I feel like this is kind of my last hope of ever feeling "normal." I wonder if I just took it regularly for a few weeks and rode the side effects through if they would eventually disappear and the meds would end up helping me. Has anybody had serzone work for them? … Or what about paxil? Any advice, words of wisdom, suggestions, etc, desparately sought… Erica

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ‘Nother meds question– I was just wondering if anyone else has ever taken serzone. I started taking antid*pr*ssants about four years ago, when I hit a colossal d*pr*ssion, and was first prescribed prozac. I stayed on that for about six months, and although the d*pr*ssion remained, it seemed ~slightly~ more controlable; but the amazing thing that seemed to happen with the prozac was that I could actually read again! However, after a while, I started thinking that there must be something better than this. I was still d*pr*ssed, still failing school, still barely functional. So, I went on "The Great Med Quest." I tried everything, and nothing seemed to help me with what I was looking for– something to help me be more functional, and to help me to concentrate enough to be able to read and to focus enough to do my coursework. After ritalin, wellbutrin, zoloft, effexor, and others which I have forgotten, I went back on prozac, because at least I had been able to read when I was on it before. I took it for about a year– going up to sixty and sometimes eighty mg’s a day. I pretended that I was not d*pr*ssed anymore, and I could still barely focus. A little over a month ago I woke up, and realized exactly how d*pr*ssed I was. A couple of days later, I found myself in the h*sp*t*l. I asked my p to change meds, so he said that my options were either serzone or paxil, and that that was it, there wasn’t anything else for me to take. However, the side effects with the serzone seem incredible. I have only been taking it for a few weeks, and pretty irregularly due to the side effects– i.e. if I choose to take it on a given day, I can expect not to be able to drive, walk straight, eat, or sleep for less than fourteen hours. However, I feel like this is kind of my last hope of ever feeling "normal." I wonder if I just took it regularly for a few weeks and rode the side effects through if they would eventually disappear and the meds would end up helping me. Has anybody had serzone work for them? … Or what about paxil? Any advice, words of wisdom, suggestions, etc, desparately sought… Erica

Hi Erica, I was on paxil for about 2 months last year. I found that it lifted the depression to a degree, but the side effects (lack of sleep, tremor, feeling really agitated and unbelievable night-mares every night), were out-weighing the anti-depressant function. These tablets are hard to gauge though. One fits some-one but doesn’t fit the other person. It’s all a matter of trial and error as you seem to know. I thought that I would never find a med to alleviate some of my more severe symptoms, but this year have found an old tri-cyclic that seems to be doing a pretty good job….and I went through the whole range too…. Good luck… Hope you find something that helps you… Grace

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i took serazone for a while, ttwice acctually, the first time it worked really well for me (i had less side effects than i did on prozac), and i went off meds entirely after a whille.  then i went back on it not too long ago, and the side effectts weren’t too bad until my time sense left and i didn’t realize how many doses i had missed…  for me, if i’ve missed doses i get really bad side effects unless i taper back on the same way as if i was just starting it. different people react better to different meds, and there may not be one currently that will really work for you (i hope there is one). good luck elf

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I also took Serzone for a while.  I had the simular side affect the if I missed a dose, I would get really sick in taking the next dose unless I tapered myself back on it. Other than that I had no side effects, but fro me it didn’t help with my depression.  It was the last hope for me because I’d been on Effexor,Prozac, Zoloft, Paxil, tricyclics, MAOI’s. The only thin I haven’t tried is Remeron (sp). But none of the docs will even consider it. Margaret i took serazone for a while, ttwice acctually, the first time it worked really well for me (i had less side effects than i did on prozac), and i went off meds entirely after a whille.  then i went back on it not too long ago, and the side effectts weren’t too bad until my time sense left and i didn’t realize how many doses i had missed…  for me, if i’ve missed doses i get really bad side effects unless i taper back on the same way as if i was just starting it. different people react better to different meds, and there may not be one currently that will really work for you (i hope there is one). good luck elf

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Hi Erica, hihi, Grace  = ) I was on paxil for about 2 months last year. I found that it lifted the depression to a degree, but the side effects (lack of sleep, tremor, feeling really agitated and unbelievable night-mares every night), were out-weighing the anti-depressant function.

that sux. i thnk that that is what zoloft did when i was on it… These tablets are hard to gauge though. One fits some-one but doesn’t fit the other person. It’s all a matter of trial and error as you seem to know.

yeah, i know = … i wish it were easier I thought that I would never find a med to alleviate some of my more severe symptoms, but this year have found an old tri-cyclic that seems to be doing a pretty good job….and I went through the whole range too…. Good luck… Hope you find something that helps you… Grace

thank you = ) erica "… I’m just having thoughts of Marianne she could outrun the fastest slug she could Marianne quickest girl in the frying pan"

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Question:

This is an interesting question.  I have been seeking the answer to this for some time now.  My past two cars have been HUGE GM party barges.  A ‘79 Pontiac Bonneville and a ‘84 Buick Park Ave.  I purchased the first in ‘88 and it had about 36K mi. on it for 3100 dollars US. and sold it five years later for about $500 US. At that time it had about 106K mi.  The total cost of non-maintainance repairs was about 600$.  That means the cost of depreciation and repairs was about 5 cents per mile.  Insurance was also really inexpensive too since I paid cash and didn’t carry anything but liability.  It was really a great car.  It did however tend to drink gas, about 16 around town and 19 on the highway. My current car the ‘84 Buick Park Ave.  I purchased for 4500$ about two years ago.  It had about 53K mi. on it at the time.  Now it has about 83k mi. on it.  I have had two problems with it.  The total cost has been about 475 dollars so far.  The car still runs great and I plan on keeping it for another three years.  After that time I anticipate being able to sell it for 700-1000 dollars.  This is a really cheap way to drive. My next car may be an old Volvo or Mercedes.  These cars run forever and have an incredible reseale value.  Maintianance and repairs will cost more but the money will be recooped in better reseale values.  I figure if you buy a convertable Mercedes or a Volvo wagon, about 10-12 years old, you will be able to sell it for about what you paid for it five years later.  That is provided that you keep it in good condition.  Hey, if you buy the right older car, you could even make money on the whole deal.  New cars and Leases are for suckeres B-).  Buy a good used car.  Spend a little on keeping it looking good and running well and enjoy a coar that costs peanuts to run. Just my 2 cents.  Is there anyone else out there that does this out of necessity or out of the desire to save a few grand? Sincerely, Richard F. Giersch

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: On a 60 month loan, 10% interest rate, 67% of the first 2 yrs. payments go to : reducing principle.  Even on the first payment, 61% goes toward principle. : This according to a loan amortization table I just generated in Excel. : Auto loans are not amortized in the same manner as mortgages; they use : the Rule of 78’s method of allocating principal.  As such, up-front : payments are almost entirely interest, and ones near the end, : principal. It’s a good thing you lease your cars now, because if this is the kind of loan you get for your car, someone’s screwing you over. I have a car loan.  It is amortized the same way as my home loan.  All my car loans have been.  There’s nothing magical about it. —   Technology Group   Applied Micro Circuits Corp.

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[snip] : Doubtful. There are too many restrictions on a lease that can never : prove advantageous in all situations. And your addition of the gains [snip] Those leasing restrictions aren’t very attractive to those of us who like to modify their cars a lot.  To me, leasing seems like driving a rental car all the time; it’s like you’re just borrowing the car.  You can put a certain amount of mileage on it, you have to pay for gas and upkeep, but you can’t change it to suit yourself.  I guess if you just consider your car "basic transportation," then a lease might be alright, but if you love cars, forget it.      Danny

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The primary factor in the lease/finance/cash decision should be the interest rate: if one can borrow money at a lower rate than one can obtain by investing it, one should borrow.  Leasing is just another form of borrowing, and leases almost always beat auto loans in terms of interest rate; the average is around 7%, but can be as low as zero.

Not exactly John. A second, heavily determining factor is just how long are you willing to live with one car. If your aim is to frequently trade up to new cars, say every 3-4 years, leasing is almost always the best way to go. I can’t imagine any form of purchase, cash or otherwise, that would put you ahead once you factor in depreciation, etc. On the other hand, if your plan is to just find the cheapest way to run a car, period, then nothing, and I mean nothing, can prove cheaper then the old adage of buying cash and "running it `till the wheels fall off". This is hardly virgin territory we are treading here, as the subject has been the focus of countless studies (including the dissertation of a fellow doctoral graduate of mine some years back). The answer comes up the same every single time, and with an even larger lead in more recent times with the improving longevity of modern vehicles. It may not be the coolest thing to drive in a 10-year old car, but you’d have to have lease payments under $30/month to beat the money layout, including repairs, on a car which has been paid for in cash and driven 10 years (or 150,000 miles). Eventually everyone will catch on, and all cars will be leased. I’m on my fourth one, and much richer as a result: the money I left in GE stock rather than putting down on a car is now worth eight times what it was in 1986, so that $25K I could have used to buy the 1986 Mercedes is now worth over $200K.  And all the lease payments I’ve made since then total only to about $35K.

Doubtful. There are too many restrictions on a lease that can never prove advantageous in all situations. And your addition of the gains in stock is irrelevant to the cost factor of operating your vehicle. Your stock would have made equal profit had you leased your car, bought it, or rode a bike. You could counter that you may not have had the cash to invest had you purchased, but then again you could have invested in a bum scheme and lost all that money. In that case the capital in a car that you *owned* would have better return then your investments and lease payments. Investment is investment, and I’ve also made a lot of money for myself investing, while buying all my cars in cash. So let’s keep seperate subjects just that. So what was that about cash being the best way to buy a car? Thanks, but no thanks.

Again, it depends on usage. Between my job and my business, I drive a LOT. I’ve traded my last two Saabs and one BMW with well over 200,000 miles on them. I’m also an amateur racer and run my Porsche 911 Turbo at local club events. No lease of any type would give a better value than a cash purchase for the former. And no lease contract would even permit the latter. As they say, "your mileage may vary". What was that about "someday everyone will lease"? Thanks, but no thanks. Cheers, – Daryl

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Two year lease, 10% down.  Pay for just the filet.  Let someone else pay for the bone, tail and head.  You will never lose any money and have options at the end of the lease versus long term obligations.  Bear in mind that on a five year loan only 14% during the first two years goes toward principle reduction.  86% is pure interest. Not a judgment – just a factual correction: On a 60 month loan, 10% interest rate, 67% of the first 2 yrs. payments go to reducing principle.  Even on the first payment, 61% goes toward principle. This according to a loan amortization table I just generated in Excel.

Auto loans are not amortized in the same manner as mortgages; they use the Rule of 78’s method of allocating principal.  As such, up-front payments are almost entirely interest, and ones near the end, principal. Auto leases may also be amortized in this same manner, but this is less of a problem because of their shorther length, and the availability of "gap" insurance; this reduces or eliminates the financial impact if one’s car is totalled or stolen.  With financing, one could be seriously "upside-down." The primary factor in the lease/finance/cash decision should be the interest rate: if one can borrow money at a lower rate than one can obtain by investing it, one should borrow.  Leasing is just another form of borrowing, and leases almost always beat auto loans in terms of interest rate; the average is around 7%, but can be as low as zero. Just ask for the lease’s Money Factor and multiply by 24 to get the equivalent APR.  If this number is less than a loan interest rate, leasing is better than financing.  If however, you keep all your savings in a passbook savings account at 2.75%, then you’re probably better off buying with cash, although, there are many subsidized leases available with interest rates lower than this. Eventually everyone will catch on, and all cars will be leased. I’m on my fourth one, and much richer as a result: the money I left in GE stock rather than putting down on a car is now worth eight times what it was in 1986, so that $25K I could have used to buy the 1986 Mercedes is now worth over $200K.  And all the lease payments I’ve made since then total only to about $35K. So what was that about cash being the best way to buy a car? Thanks, but no thanks. Martin Marietta Government Electronic Systems    Moorestown NJ 08057 WPI Class of ‘75, Temple Class of ‘94 My new car history:   1975    1978    1982       1986        1989      1992      1995    VW –  Audi – Audi  - Mercedes – Mercedes – Audi – Mercedes Scirocco Fox GTI  4000S    190E 2.3    190E 2.6    100CS     S320 POSSLQ’s* new car history:           1978      1981      1985       1988      1990      1993         Triumph – Toyota – Toyota  -   VW    - Audi –   Audi         Spitfire   Tercel    Corolla    Jetta GL    80       90S *POSSLQ = Person of Opposite Sex Sharing Living Quarters Note: All Audis and Mercedes above were sold to friends or family.

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:: Two year lease, 10% down.  Pay for just the filet.  Let someone else pay :: for the bone, tail and head.  You will never lose any money and have :: options at the end of the lease versus long term obligations.  Bear in :: mind that on a five year loan only 14% during the first two years goes :: toward principle reduction.  86% is pure interest. : Not a judgment – just a factual correction: : : On a 60 month loan, 10% interest rate, 67% of the first 2 yrs. payments go to : reducing principle.  Even on the first payment, 61% goes toward principle. : This according to a loan amortization table I just generated in Excel. Your Excel spreadsheet is correct.  And, for a 5yr, 8% simple-interest loan, 72.5% of the first 24 payments go toward principle.  Furthermore, for equal APR’s, a lease will *ALWAYS* have the higher interest expense because the average unpaid balance is higher.  And please don’t forget that on a lease you’re probably also paying sales tax on the interest. Leases *do* have advantages, but interest expense is *NOT* one of them. …a loan is just a lease with a $0.00 residual, Mark

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: Two year lease, 10% down.  Pay for just the filet.  Let someone else pay : for the bone, tail and head.  You will never lose any money and have : options at the end of the lease versus long term obligations.  Bear in : mind that on a five year loan only 14% during the first two years goes : toward principle reduction.  86% is pure interest.   Funny, I’ve got a 5 year car loan with a $325 a month payment.  According to my bank statement, about $100 a month goes to interest, the rest to principal.  This is for the first month or two, where the amount to interest will be the greatest.  Now, that means that roughly 65% of the payment goes to principle reduction. But you state only 14% goes towards principle reduction.  huh.. mathematician. —   Technology Group   Applied Micro Circuits Corp.

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Two year lease, 10% down.  Pay for just the filet.  Let someone else pay for the bone, tail and head.  You will never lose any money and have options at the end of the lease versus long term obligations.  Bear in mind that on a five year loan only 14% during the first two years goes toward principle reduction.  86% is pure interest.

Not a judgment – just a factual correction: On a 60 month loan, 10% interest rate, 67% of the first 2 yrs. payments go to reducing principle.  Even on the first payment, 61% goes toward principle. This according to a loan amortization table I just generated in Excel. – David

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Two year lease, 10% down.  Pay for just the filet.  Let someone else pay for the bone, tail and head.  You will never lose any money and have options at the end of the lease versus long term obligations.  Bear in mind that on a five year loan only 14% during the first two years goes toward principle reduction.  86% is pure interest.  A normal vehicle will depreciate 40% during the first two years.  So long term loans cause negative equity and then you are forced to spend for wearable items such as tires, tunes brakes, stuff that never ad any value to the vehicle. It’s pure expense.  Just pay for the filet…the first two years depreciation then change cars instead of tires.

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Does anybody know by experience or by being clever with the calculator as to the cheapest way to own and run a car. Is it cheaper to Lease?  If so, over what period? Is it cheaper to by new and sell?  If so, when do you sell? Is it cheaper to buy second hand? If so, how old? As you can see, there are so many different variations. Perhaps an ex-salesman might have the answers. Please post any comments you have.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Path: news.redstone.army.mil!news.msfc.nasa.gov!bcm!cs.utexas.edu!uwm.edu!lll-win ken.llnl.gov!enews.sgi.com!decwrl!waikato!auckland.ac.nz!dmar04.cs.aukuni.a c.nz Newsgroups: rec.autos.misc Organization: University of Auckland Lines: 12 NNTP-Posting-Host: cs26.cs.auckland.ac.nz Summary: Cheapest way to own/run a car? X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #3 (NOV) Does anybody know by experience or by being clever with the calculator as to the cheapest way to own and run a car. Is it cheaper to Lease?  If so, over what period? Is it cheaper to by new and sell?  If so, when do you sell? Is it cheaper to buy second hand? If so, how old? As you can see, there are so many different variations. Perhaps an ex-salesman might have the answers. Please post any comments you have.

Good article in this month’s Esquire (Bruce Willis in on the cover) magazine that addresses many of the points that you raise…. Glenn E. Painter – SESI Redstone Arsenal, AL (205) 876-2325  DSN 746-2325 CompuServ 74357,1152

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