Question:

i notice that when i do NYC races in central park (freddiemac 5K most recently) i become terribly asthmatic after about a mile.  i don’t have this problem in the NJ suburbs where i live and run other races. i am on asthma medications (serevent, flovent and nasonex.) and these do a good job for me. wondering if it’s the air quality in central park. -rei

Response:

wondering if it’s the air quality in central park.

It could very well be. I would think the ground level pollution is higher in NYC (more concentration of cars) than in the suburbs…particularly in the warmer months. For example, I used to have chronic bronchitus when I lived in the city.  When I moved to NJ the problem cleared up. Johanna "forever young" Young

Response:

Question:

What is DHEA? When I was in college I had a blood test that said I was low in this, but noone could give me a clear answer on what that meant. Also, what vitamin supplement works? Thanks.

DHEA is a ‘dietary supplement’ that makes up for its lack of demonstrated effectiveness with wildly exaggerated claims. The _only_ indication that for vitamins to have any use at all in the treatment of asthma is for vitamin C.  However this is only as a protective effect against ozone exposure and even then the effect is weak. Anything else is nothing more than hot air. "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has limits." Einstein

Response:

I also suspect a link between my Flovent use and anxiety. Glad to hear it’s not just in my head. Is there any alternative? I’m going to start going for massages, and am considering seeing a counsellor if that doesn’t work. I’ve had a few episodes where my heart rate has jumped to over 130 for no obvious reason, and then taken several hours to come down. If that dosent work, its probably the steroids.  I’ve heard DHEA and a multi vitamin can help with the agitation.

What is DHEA? When I was in college I had a blood test that said I was low in this, but noone could give me a clear answer on what that meant. Also, what vitamin supplement works? Thanks.

Response:

if Ventolin gives you the shakes….it is almsot assuredly responsible for the agitation as well. It works that way with me. Just because it takes a long time to go away doesn’t mean anything. try using an Aerochamber spacer if you don’t already. And talk to your doctor. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My rescue inhaler (not Ventolin) makes me agitated and it comes on quite soon after taking it. Also drinking more coffee than usual does. What dose are you taking of ‘the usual ventolin’? writes I lead a stressful life but I have been handling it. Recently I have been on a sustaining dose ( 2 puffs twice a day of 220 mcg flovent, one niff each nostril twice a day for flonase) of steroids ( plus usual ventolin ). I notice I am getting more "agitated" to the point where I am considering counseling. could this be attributed to the steroids?                      Jerry Freedman,Jr — Surfer! Web site: http://www dot nevis dash view dot demon dot co dot uk Send Email to: {$surfer$} at nevis dash view dot demon dot co dot uk I am the original poster: To be specific I have, apparently – the pulmonary docs keep dancing around by saying "asthma-like condition – coughing asthma that is triggered by a cold/flu. After a bout with a cold or flu I get a killer cough that sometimes won’t even respond to prednisone. The Dr has me using ventolin ( although I never have the asthma symptoms most of the readers have ) 4 times a day – 2 puffs. Since I don’t have the breathing problems most have I often don’t make this. I am aware of the ventolin shakes but the "agitation" I am talking about lasts longer and doesn’t seem to be connected, causally to ventolin.              Jerry Freedman

— Emily

Response:

The feelings that you are experiencing sound very similar to feelings that I have had, when using Flovent 110mcg – two puffs twice daily. When using the Flovent, I become agitated, agressive, and extremely difficult to live with.  In fact, I cannot stand myself, and I do not blame anyone else for complaining  about my behavior. This is just one of many side effects that I have to contend with; however, which is worse – nice with no breathing – or an agressive animal with lots of "lung power"??!!  Lungs that function are an important part of my life! J Meyer love the Lord w/all your heart.                               matt 22:37    

Response:

Yes, I have found this to be true in my past steroidal based inhaler use as well as prednisone.  It is not uncommon.  Counseling may not be a bad idea to help you deal with every day stress as well as the stress of dealing with a chronic illness

Response:

I lead a stressful life but I have been handling it. Recently I have been on a sustaining dose ( 2 puffs twice a day of 220 mcg flovent, one niff each nostril twice a day for flonase) of steroids ( plus usual ventolin ). I notice I am getting more "agitated" to the point where I am considering counseling. could this be attributed to the steroids?  

Do you take your ventolin regularly before your flowvent dosage?  I used too, but stopped being the ventolin made me nervious, and I didn’t really need it.  If your still wheezing, up your steriod dosage and drop the un needed ventolin. If that dosent work, its probably the steroids.  I’ve heard DHEA and a multi vitamin can help with the agitation.

Response:

DEAR JERRY, Iknow how you feel.  I have been taking oral steroids for over 10 years (prednisone-up to 40mg daily) and my nerves are driving me crazy.  It’s the only medication that controls my asthma.  I take "puffers too.  If I know of any help. i"ll let you know.  Please email  me.  I’d like to know more about your problem.  Thanks. julie

Response:

I lead a stressful life but I have been handling it. Recently I have been on a sustaining dose ( 2 puffs twice a day of 220 mcg flovent, one niff each nostril twice a day for flonase) of steroids ( plus usual ventolin ). I notice I am getting more "agitated" to the point where I am considering counseling. could this be attributed to the steroids?

It’s highly unlikely.  It’s more likely that your stressful life is catching up with you. Chris Owens

Response:

I lead a stressful life but I have been handling it. Recently I have been on a sustaining dose ( 2 puffs twice a day of 220 mcg flovent, one niff each nostril twice a day for flonase) of steroids ( plus usual ventolin ). I notice I am getting more "agitated" to the point where I am considering counseling. could this be attributed to the steroids?                       Jerry Freedman,Jr

Response:

My rescue inhaler (not Ventolin) makes me agitated and it comes on quite soon after taking it. Also drinking more coffee than usual does. What dose are you taking of ‘the usual ventolin’? writes I lead a stressful life but I have been handling it. Recently I have been on a sustaining dose ( 2 puffs twice a day of 220 mcg flovent, one niff each nostril twice a day for flonase) of steroids ( plus usual ventolin ). I notice I am getting more "agitated" to the point where I am considering counseling. could this be attributed to the steroids?                      Jerry Freedman,Jr

– Surfer! Web site: http://www dot nevis dash view dot demon dot co dot uk Send Email to: {$surfer$} at nevis dash view dot demon dot co dot uk

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My rescue inhaler (not Ventolin) makes me agitated and it comes on quite soon after taking it. Also drinking more coffee than usual does. What dose are you taking of ‘the usual ventolin’? writes I lead a stressful life but I have been handling it. Recently I have been on a sustaining dose ( 2 puffs twice a day of 220 mcg flovent, one niff each nostril twice a day for flonase) of steroids ( plus usual ventolin ). I notice I am getting more "agitated" to the point where I am considering counseling. could this be attributed to the steroids?                      Jerry Freedman,Jr — Surfer! Web site: http://www dot nevis dash view dot demon dot co dot uk Send Email to: {$surfer$} at nevis dash view dot demon dot co dot uk

I am the original poster: To be specific I have, apparently – the pulmonary docs keep dancing around by saying "asthma-like condition – coughing asthma that is triggered by a cold/flu. After a bout with a cold or flu I get a killer cough that sometimes won’t even respond to prednisone. The Dr has me using ventolin ( although I never have the asthma symptoms most of the readers have ) 4 times a day – 2 puffs. Since I don’t have the breathing problems most have I often don’t make this. I am aware of the ventolin shakes but the "agitation" I am talking about lasts longer and doesn’t seem to be connected, causally to ventolin.              Jerry Freedman

Response:

I lead a stressful life but I have been handling it. Recently I have been on a sustaining dose ( 2 puffs twice a day of 220 mcg flovent, one niff each nostril twice a day for flonase) of steroids ( plus usual ventolin ). I notice I am getting more "agitated" to the point where I am considering counseling. could this be attributed to the steroids?                       Jerry Freedman,Jr

2 pf x 2 of Flovent 220 (880 ug fluticasone) is a High Dose of inhaled steroid, plus the additional from the Flonase. It’s possible to start getting the same side effects as oral steroids like prednisone, when on High Dose inhaled steroids. Be sure to use an AeroChamber spacer with the Flovent 220 MDI; it cuts the side spray and consequent side effects in half. Also rinse, gargle, spit out after inhaling Flovent. Side effects of steroids are dose dependent. Some steroid sparing drugs could be tried to reduce the Flovent dose; theophylline SR, Singulair, Serevent. The Flonase dose may also be reduced in some cases; or try using Nasalcrom (nasal cromolyn) or/and antihistamines, if allergic, and decongestants. If you are allergic to allergens in the air in the house, an air cleaner may help, or other avoidance techniques. Ellis

Response:

Question:

Jack and Lorna You were both spot on with your diagnosis I went to my doctor yesterday and he confirmed I had Thrush, he also put me back on Pulmicot and Bricanyl with instructions to return in two weeks when I should have stabalised and he will then reconsider upping my dosage or possibly introducing another pump to go with the others. Thanks again Alan

Response:

           The word is "thursh" an’ I sure as hell got it when I first started Pulmicort.  Before then I had got away with not rinsing after the other steroids.  Now I normally rinse  a n d  gargle twice religiously after each use.              BTW switching from Pulmicort to Beclofort comparable to switching from gin to beer.  It jus’ won’t get it.                 Hope you use a soft cloth surgical mask in the shop.—jack

Response:

Hi everyone I have been reading this NG for some weeks now and have recently experienced a change in my asthma.   I am 56 years old and had asthma for 15 years I work in a workshop where there is often dust from polishing motors and chemicals which are used for various processes.  As this is my business and I cannot avoid it although I do my best to minimise the effects .

Inhaling metal dust and chemicals can cause many different kinds of lung disease, not just asthma. Well I needed to consult my doctor a week or so ago as my asthma symptoms were causing me more problems than usual ( tight chest and coughing wheezing which refused to get better)  I explained to the doctor that I always have a cough and was wondering if perhaps I should consider a change of pumps. At the time I was on Pulmicort and Brycanel she examined my chest and said it was clear but said my blow test showed my asthma  was worse than normal and agreed to try me on Salamol instead of Brycanel she also prescribed anti histamine tablets.

Pulmicort is one of the best steroid inhalers; Becloforte is an older weaker one. Antihistamines only help if you have allergies; sounds like your problem may be related to the chemicals and metal dust at work. You may need to improve the air quality at work; chemical fume hoods, air cleaner, masks, ventilation, etc.  These tablets gave me many of the side effects mentioned in the instruction sheet so I stopped taking them after three days.  Shortly after I was sent to an asthma clinic for a further check-up and the nurse suggested replacing the Pulmicort with Becloforte now since taking these two new pumps I have suffered a sore throat, headache and a feeling of being generally run down to such an extent that I have had to take to my bed for two days.  This is most unlike me.   I have today decided to returned to my Pulmicort hoping this will rid me of my sore throat and was wondering if any of this strikes a cord with anyone else. Regards Alan UK

You may benefit by a full workup from a chest doctor, including  Pulmonary Function Tests and a chest x-ray. You might have ‘walking pneumonia’ or other lung disease, along with the asthma. Ellis

Response:

Hi everyone I have been reading this NG for some weeks now and have recently experienced a change in my asthma.   I am 56 years old and had asthma for 15 years I work in a workshop where there is often dust from polishing motors and chemicals which are used for various processes.  As this is my business and I cannot avoid it although I do my best to minimise the effects . Well I needed to consult my doctor a week or so ago as my asthma symptoms were causing me more problems than usual ( tight chest and coughing wheezing which refused to get better)  I explained to the doctor that I always have a cough and was wondering if perhaps I should consider a change of pumps. At the time I was on Pulmicort and Brycanel she examined my chest and said it was clear but said my blow test showed my asthma  was worse than normal and agreed to try me on Salamol instead of Brycanel she also prescribed anti histamine tablets.  These tablets gave me many of the side effects mentioned in the instruction sheet so I stopped taking them after three days.  Shortly after I was sent to an asthma clinic for a further check-up and the nurse suggested replacing the Pulmicort with Becloforte now since taking these two new pumps I have suffered a sore throat, headache and a feeling of being generally run down to such an extent that I have had to take to my bed for two days.  This is most unlike me.   I have today decided to returned to my Pulmicort hoping this will rid me of my sore throat and was wondering if any of this strikes a cord with anyone else. Regards Alan UK

Response:

Pulmicourt, once taken, you need to gargle and rinse out your mouth and throat, it can be the cause of your sore throat, it is a steroid and unless you do this, it can cause something called "thrust" so my Dr. says give this a try and see if it helps.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi everyone I have been reading this NG for some weeks now and have recently experienced a change in my asthma.   I am 56 years old and had asthma for 15 years I work in a workshop where there is often dust from polishing motors and chemicals which are used for various processes.  As this is my business and I cannot avoid it although I do my best to minimise the effects . Well I needed to consult my doctor a week or so ago as my asthma symptoms were causing me more problems than usual ( tight chest and coughing wheezing which refused to get better)  I explained to the doctor that I always have a cough and was wondering if perhaps I should consider a change of pumps. At the time I was on Pulmicort and Brycanel she examined my chest and said it was clear but said my blow test showed my asthma  was worse than normal and agreed to try me on Salamol instead of Brycanel she also prescribed anti histamine tablets.  These tablets gave me many of the side effects mentioned in the instruction sheet so I stopped taking them after three days.  Shortly after I was sent to an asthma clinic for a further check-up and the nurse suggested replacing the Pulmicort with Becloforte now since taking these two new pumps I have suffered a sore throat, headache and a feeling of being generally run down to such an extent that I have had to take to my bed for two days.  This is most unlike me.   I have today decided to returned to my Pulmicort hoping this will rid me of my sore throat and was wondering if any of this strikes a cord with anyone else. Regards Alan UK

Response:

I have a 2500 gallon pond, 3 months old, with a Cal 1200 pump.  It just doesn’t do the job and I want to upgrade it to make my waterfall more substantial.  The pump I choose needs to have an inline connection for the in-pond filter (yes, it’s crummy but it was not my design!).  I want something that is cheap to run and, yes, cheap to buy.  I was considering the Cal 2700 but would appreciate any advice or recommendations. Thanks, Gary

Response:

Hi Gary, I am not familiar with Cal pumps since I was advised years ago to stay away from them. I used Little Giant pumps in the past and found that I never had clear water. If water quality and clear water is your goal you should considered using an outside pump and filter system. There will be people on this NG that will disagree but this is my opinion having used both. Outside filters are allot easier to maintain and outside pumps are really cheap to run 24/7. You may be able to pick up a used pump real cheap. see my filter setup at, good luck. http://sites.netscape.net/guppyusa/homepage – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a 2500 gallon pond, 3 months old, with a Cal 1200 pump.  It just doesn’t do the job and I want to upgrade it to make my waterfall more substantial.  The pump I choose needs to have an inline connection for the in-pond filter (yes, it’s crummy but it was not my design!).  I want something that is cheap to run and, yes, cheap to buy.  I was considering the Cal 2700 but would appreciate any advice or recommendations. Thanks, Gary

Response:

I was considering the Cal 2700 but would appreciate any advice or recommendations.

Cal S2700 draws 3.8 amps at 2680 gph at 1 foot head, and costs $280. http://www.calpump.com/prod03.htm Sequence 1000 K3H1.111 draws 1.7 amps at 2590 gph at 4.4 foot head, and costs $375. http://members.aol.com/mdmpumps/pumpspecs.html Operating costs at average US electrical rates ($0.086/ kwh) are $344 and $154 per year for full time use, respectively.  (Of course, the waterfall doesn’t have to be run full time; a smaller pump would suffice for filtration and aeration.) This is just an example to illustrate that efficiency is more important than purchase price.  In this case, the more expensive pump pays for itself in 6 months operation, and may last longer as well.  There are many other brands besides these two. – Rod

Response:

– Hi Gary., I would like to get in on this pump debate. I  do not think it is fair to say one specific pump is better than another one. The answer to your question I think is to do your research on pumps before buying one. The pumps can be divided into at least three groups. Submersible (sealed), submersible (magnetic drive) and in line such as a pool pump. The magnetic drive is very inexpensive on power consumption  but the trade off is a much lower head or less gallons delivered at higher heights. On the plus side the magnetic driven pump has replaceable  parts that the sealed submersible doesn’t have. The in line pump sitting up out of the pond has many advantages that submersible pumps do not have. Some of the options they offer are , offering the ability to draw water off of the bottom of the pond via a bottom drain, definitely more gallonage per hour at very low power consumption.,as low as .88 amps for 1200 gallons per hour.The thing you want to look at first is how much water do you have to move? A small waterfall for example requires 50-60 gallons for every 1 inch wide. so for a waterfall 6 inches wide you would require 300 gallons per hour. If your pond is under 1000 gallons and you have a small filter sitting out of the pond as part of your watercourse you can check the magnetically driven pumps and they will have a chart describing the gallons pumped at each foot of rise.I think you will find that if you can incorporate a submerged pump that in time you will | Roger Pinette | Ponds Beautiful    (604) 534-9133 | http://www.pondsbeautiful.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Gary, I am not familiar with Cal pumps since I was advised years ago to stay away from them. I used Little Giant pumps in the past and found that I never had clear water. If water quality and clear water is your goal you should considered using an outside pump and filter system. There will be people on this NG that will disagree but this is my opinion having used both. Outside filters are allot easier to maintain and outside pumps are really cheap to run 24/7. You may be able to pick up a used pump real cheap. see my filter setup at, good luck. http://sites.netscape.net/guppyusa/homepage I have a 2500 gallon pond, 3 months old, with a Cal 1200 pump.  It just doesn’t do the job and I want to upgrade it to make my waterfall more substantial.  The pump I choose needs to have an inline connection for the in-pond filter (yes, it’s crummy but it was not my design!).  I want something that is cheap to run and, yes, cheap to buy.  I was considering the Cal 2700 but would appreciate any advice or recommendations. Thanks, Gary

Response:

        Thanks Rogeer for a lot of good info. I’d like to mention for discussion my experience with pumps so far. In our two ponds that we got when we moved, each had a Little Giant submersible pump. Both eventually started leaking coolant and had to be replaced.         They lasted only about 13 months (good work, as they are guaranteed for only a year!). One more lasted about the same. So, I replaced it with an above-ground pool pump with skimmer and filter, and that has done yeoman service, plugging away for two years now with no problem. It cost only a little more than the Little Giant even with skimmer and filter.         The dealers I talked with all said those submersible pumps are not designed to work full time without going belly up after about a year.         Any others had similar experiences?  |  NOTE: If you want to e-mail a reply, please strip |  |  off the letters "OOPS" from my address.           |  |              (Spam preventer)                      | – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text — Hi Gary., I would like to get in on this pump debate. I  do not think it is fair to say one specific pump is better than another one. The answer to your question I think is to do your research on pumps before buying one. The pumps can be divided into at least three groups. Submersible (sealed), submersible (magnetic drive) and in line such as a pool pump. The magnetic drive is very inexpensive on power consumption  but the trade off is a much lower head or less gallons delivered at higher heights. On the plus side the magnetic driven pump has replaceable  parts that the sealed submersible doesn’t have. The in line pump sitting up out of the pond has many advantages that submersible pumps do not have. Some of the options they offer are , offering the ability to draw water off of the bottom of the pond via a bottom drain, definitely more gallonage per hour at very low power consumption.,as low as .88 amps for 1200 gallons per hour.The thing you want to look at first is how much water do you have to move? A small waterfall for example requires 50-60 gallons for every 1 inch wide. so for a waterfall 6 inches wide you would require 300 gallons per hour. If your pond is under 1000 gallons and you have a small filter sitting out of the pond as part of your watercourse you can check the magnetically driven pumps and they will have a chart describing the gallons pumped at each foot of rise.I think you will find that if you can incorporate a submerged pump that in time you will | Roger Pinette | Ponds Beautiful    (604) 534-9133 | http://www.pondsbeautiful.com Hi Gary, I am not familiar with Cal pumps since I was advised years ago to stay away from them. I used Little Giant pumps in the past and found that I never had clear water. If water quality and clear water is your goal you should considered using an outside pump and filter system. There will be people on this NG that will disagree but this is my opinion having used both. Outside filters are allot easier to maintain and outside pumps are really cheap to run 24/7. You may be able to pick up a used pump real cheap. see my filter setup at, good luck. http://sites.netscape.net/guppyusa/homepage I have a 2500 gallon pond, 3 months old, with a Cal 1200 pump.  It just doesn’t do the job and I want to upgrade it to make my waterfall more substantial.  The pump I choose needs to have an inline connection for the in-pond filter (yes, it’s crummy but it was not my design!).  I want something that is cheap to run and, yes, cheap to buy.  I was considering the Cal 2700 but would appreciate any advice or recommendations. Thanks, Gary

–

Response:

— Hi Gary., I would like to get in on this pump debate. I  do not think it is fair to say one specific pump is better than another one. The answer to your question I think is to do your research on pumps before buying one. The pumps can be divided into at least three groups. Submersible (sealed), submersible (magnetic drive) and in line such as a pool pump. The magnetic drive is very inexpensive on power consumption  but the trade off is a much lower head or less gallons delivered at higher heights. On the plus side the magnetic driven pump has replaceable  parts that the sealed submersible doesn’t have. The in line pump sitting up out of the pond has many advantages that submersible pumps do not have. Some of the options they offer are , offering the ability to draw water off of the bottom of the pond via a bottom drain,

Depending on how the filter is designed, all pumps mentioned above can draw water off the bottom. I have a Beckett submersible in a gravity-fed filter using the Tetra vacuum bottom drain. ~ jan See my ponds thru the seasons: http://jjspond.home.att.net/         ~Keep ‘em Wet!~      Tri-Cities WA    Zone 7a          To e-mail see website – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -definitely more gallonage per hour at very low power consumption.,as low as .88 amps for 1200 gallons per hour.The thing you want to look at first is how much water do you have to move? A small waterfall for example requires 50-60 gallons for every 1 inch wide. so for a waterfall 6 inches wide you would require 300 gallons per hour. If your pond is under 1000 gallons and you have a small filter sitting out of the pond as part of your watercourse you can check the magnetically driven pumps and they will have a chart describing the gallons pumped at each foot of rise.I think you will find that if you can incorporate a submerged pump that in time you will | Roger Pinette | Ponds Beautiful    (604) 534-9133 | http://www.pondsbeautiful.com Hi Gary, I am not familiar with Cal pumps since I was advised years ago to stay away from them. I used Little Giant pumps in the past and found that I never had clear water. If water quality and clear water is your goal you should considered using an outside pump and filter system. There will be people on this NG that will disagree but this is my opinion having used both. Outside filters are allot easier to maintain and outside pumps are really cheap to run 24/7. You may be able to pick up a used pump real cheap. see my filter setup at, good luck. http://sites.netscape.net/guppyusa/homepage I have a 2500 gallon pond, 3 months old, with a Cal 1200 pump.  It just doesn’t do the job and I want to upgrade it to make my waterfall more substantial.  The pump I choose needs to have an inline connection for the in-pond filter (yes, it’s crummy but it was not my design!).  I want something that is cheap to run and, yes, cheap to buy.  I was considering the Cal 2700 but would appreciate any advice or recommendations. Thanks, Gary

Response:

Hi Rennie, Welcome Back…  It’s great to have you back here where you belong. Between that awful Flu  and your server you’ve been absent for some time ….  Glad your doctors and your server got it all together … A hearty Welcome to Roger!    You know what that means Roger?    Bottom line:     You are Porg!!  You will be assimilated.  All efforts to become disentangled will be useless  (or something like that ;o) Nedra / Missouri / Zone 6 —  Nedra’s Ponds: www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/4836/

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — Hi Gary., I would like to get in on this pump debate. I  do not think it is fair to say one specific pump is better than another one. The answer to your question I think is to do your research on pumps before buying one. The pumps can be divided into at least three groups. Submersible (sealed), submersible (magnetic drive) and in line such as a pool pump. The magnetic drive is very inexpensive on power consumption  but the trade off is a much lower head or less gallons delivered at higher heights. On the plus side the magnetic driven pump has replaceable  parts that the sealed submersible doesn’t have. The in line pump sitting up out of the pond has many advantages that submersible pumps do not have. Some of the options they offer are , offering the ability to draw water off of the bottom of the pond via a bottom drain, definitely more gallonage per hour at very low power consumption.,as low as .88 amps for 1200 gallons per hour.The thing you want to look at first is how much water do you have to move? A small waterfall for example requires 50-60 gallons for every 1 inch wide. so for a waterfall 6 inches wide you would require 300 gallons per hour. If your pond is under 1000 gallons and you have a small filter sitting out of the pond as part of your watercourse you can check the magnetically driven pumps and they will have a chart describing the gallons pumped at each foot of rise.I think you will find that if you can incorporate a submerged pump that in time you will | Roger Pinette | Ponds Beautiful    (604) 534-9133 | http://www.pondsbeautiful.com Roger, welcome to the newsgroup. I’m sure all of us in rec.ponds will benefit from your many years of watergardening and Koi expertise… To the regulars in the NG, this is the gentleman that dropped everything he was doing the day of the vandalism to my pond and rushed out to be of assistance trying to get everything working again. Thank you again Roger for all your help….. Rennie in Abbotsford PS…ISP finally finished system re-build and put rec.ponds back on newsserver…nice to be back……

Response:

PS…ISP finally finished system re-build and put rec.ponds back on newsserver…nice to be back……

Rennie, welcome back, almost had to send the lily fairies after you. Unfortunately many seem to be AWOL from rec.ponds. Time to hit the books & magazines and get more pond related topics going. ;o) ~ jan

Response:

My 300 GPH Little Giant lasted 4 years. I don’t remember the model number but it cost about $60 at Home Depot. I replaced it with the same model and expect to get 4 years from the new one also, It runs 24/7 year round. —      Larry Wasserman     Baltimore, Maryland

Response:

A small waterfall for example requires 50-60 gallons for every 1 inch wide. so for a waterfall 6 inches wide you would require 300 gallons per hour.

That seems quite low… don’t most sources recommend about 100 gph per inch of sill width? – Rod

Response:

On the plus side the magnetic driven pump has replaceable  parts that the sealed submersible doesn’t have.

Are we talking about the same things here?  Most people saying ‘magnetic driven’ are talking strictly about Danner’s Supreme Mag-Drive.  iirc, that’s an epoxy sealed unit that has about 3 replaceable parts.  My ’sealed’ submersible has dozens of replacable parts – including the seals. — Derek (www.netcom.ca/~dbrought/pond) rec.ponds FAQ  http://w3.one.net/~rzutt/faq.html You can’t jail a free man, the best you can do is kill him. – Heinlein

Response:

I have a 2500 gallon pond, 3 months old, with a Cal 1200 pump.  It just doesn’t do the job and I want to upgrade it to make my waterfall more substantial.  The pump I choose needs to have an inline connection for the in-pond filter (yes, it’s crummy but it was not my design!).  I want something that is cheap to run and, yes, cheap to buy.  I was considering the Cal 2700 but would appreciate any advice or recommendations. Thanks, Gary

Response:

Hi Gary, I am not familiar with Cal pumps since I was advised years ago to stay away from them. I used Little Giant pumps in the past and found that I never had clear water. If water quality and clear water is your goal you should considered using an outside pump and filter system. There will be people on this NG that will disagree but this is my opinion having used both. Outside filters are allot easier to maintain and outside pumps are really cheap to run 24/7. You may be able to pick up a used pump real cheap. see my filter setup at, good luck. http://sites.netscape.net/guppyusa/homepage – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a 2500 gallon pond, 3 months old, with a Cal 1200 pump.  It just doesn’t do the job and I want to upgrade it to make my waterfall more substantial.  The pump I choose needs to have an inline connection for the in-pond filter (yes, it’s crummy but it was not my design!).  I want something that is cheap to run and, yes, cheap to buy.  I was considering the Cal 2700 but would appreciate any advice or recommendations. Thanks, Gary

Response:

I was considering the Cal 2700 but would appreciate any advice or recommendations.

Cal S2700 draws 3.8 amps at 2680 gph at 1 foot head, and costs $280. http://www.calpump.com/prod03.htm Sequence 1000 K3H1.111 draws 1.7 amps at 2590 gph at 4.4 foot head, and costs $375. http://members.aol.com/mdmpumps/pumpspecs.html Operating costs at average US electrical rates ($0.086/ kwh) are $344 and $154 per year for full time use, respectively.  (Of course, the waterfall doesn’t have to be run full time; a smaller pump would suffice for filtration and aeration.) This is just an example to illustrate that efficiency is more important than purchase price.  In this case, the more expensive pump pays for itself in 6 months operation, and may last longer as well.  There are many other brands besides these two. – Rod

Response:

– Hi Gary., I would like to get in on this pump debate. I  do not think it is fair to say one specific pump is better than another one. The answer to your question I think is to do your research on pumps before buying one. The pumps can be divided into at least three groups. Submersible (sealed), submersible (magnetic drive) and in line such as a pool pump. The magnetic drive is very inexpensive on power consumption  but the trade off is a much lower head or less gallons delivered at higher heights. On the plus side the magnetic driven pump has replaceable  parts that the sealed submersible doesn’t have. The in line pump sitting up out of the pond has many advantages that submersible pumps do not have. Some of the options they offer are , offering the ability to draw water off of the bottom of the pond via a bottom drain, definitely more gallonage per hour at very low power consumption.,as low as .88 amps for 1200 gallons per hour.The thing you want to look at first is how much water do you have to move? A small waterfall for example requires 50-60 gallons for every 1 inch wide. so for a waterfall 6 inches wide you would require 300 gallons per hour. If your pond is under 1000 gallons and you have a small filter sitting out of the pond as part of your watercourse you can check the magnetically driven pumps and they will have a chart describing the gallons pumped at each foot of rise.I think you will find that if you can incorporate a submerged pump that in time you will | Roger Pinette | Ponds Beautiful    (604) 534-9133 | http://www.pondsbeautiful.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Gary, I am not familiar with Cal pumps since I was advised years ago to stay away from them. I used Little Giant pumps in the past and found that I never had clear water. If water quality and clear water is your goal you should considered using an outside pump and filter system. There will be people on this NG that will disagree but this is my opinion having used both. Outside filters are allot easier to maintain and outside pumps are really cheap to run 24/7. You may be able to pick up a used pump real cheap. see my filter setup at, good luck. http://sites.netscape.net/guppyusa/homepage I have a 2500 gallon pond, 3 months old, with a Cal 1200 pump.  It just doesn’t do the job and I want to upgrade it to make my waterfall more substantial.  The pump I choose needs to have an inline connection for the in-pond filter (yes, it’s crummy but it was not my design!).  I want something that is cheap to run and, yes, cheap to buy.  I was considering the Cal 2700 but would appreciate any advice or recommendations. Thanks, Gary

Response:

        Thanks Rogeer for a lot of good info. I’d like to mention for discussion my experience with pumps so far. In our two ponds that we got when we moved, each had a Little Giant submersible pump. Both eventually started leaking coolant and had to be replaced.         They lasted only about 13 months (good work, as they are guaranteed for only a year!). One more lasted about the same. So, I replaced it with an above-ground pool pump with skimmer and filter, and that has done yeoman service, plugging away for two years now with no problem. It cost only a little more than the Little Giant even with skimmer and filter.         The dealers I talked with all said those submersible pumps are not designed to work full time without going belly up after about a year.         Any others had similar experiences?  |  NOTE: If you want to e-mail a reply, please strip |  |  off the letters "OOPS" from my address.           |  |              (Spam preventer)                      | – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text — Hi Gary., I would like to get in on this pump debate. I  do not think it is fair to say one specific pump is better than another one. The answer to your question I think is to do your research on pumps before buying one. The pumps can be divided into at least three groups. Submersible (sealed), submersible (magnetic drive) and in line such as a pool pump. The magnetic drive is very inexpensive on power consumption  but the trade off is a much lower head or less gallons delivered at higher heights. On the plus side the magnetic driven pump has replaceable  parts that the sealed submersible doesn’t have. The in line pump sitting up out of the pond has many advantages that submersible pumps do not have. Some of the options they offer are , offering the ability to draw water off of the bottom of the pond via a bottom drain, definitely more gallonage per hour at very low power consumption.,as low as .88 amps for 1200 gallons per hour.The thing you want to look at first is how much water do you have to move? A small waterfall for example requires 50-60 gallons for every 1 inch wide. so for a waterfall 6 inches wide you would require 300 gallons per hour. If your pond is under 1000 gallons and you have a small filter sitting out of the pond as part of your watercourse you can check the magnetically driven pumps and they will have a chart describing the gallons pumped at each foot of rise.I think you will find that if you can incorporate a submerged pump that in time you will | Roger Pinette | Ponds Beautiful    (604) 534-9133 | http://www.pondsbeautiful.com Hi Gary, I am not familiar with Cal pumps since I was advised years ago to stay away from them. I used Little Giant pumps in the past and found that I never had clear water. If water quality and clear water is your goal you should considered using an outside pump and filter system. There will be people on this NG that will disagree but this is my opinion having used both. Outside filters are allot easier to maintain and outside pumps are really cheap to run 24/7. You may be able to pick up a used pump real cheap. see my filter setup at, good luck. http://sites.netscape.net/guppyusa/homepage I have a 2500 gallon pond, 3 months old, with a Cal 1200 pump.  It just doesn’t do the job and I want to upgrade it to make my waterfall more substantial.  The pump I choose needs to have an inline connection for the in-pond filter (yes, it’s crummy but it was not my design!).  I want something that is cheap to run and, yes, cheap to buy.  I was considering the Cal 2700 but would appreciate any advice or recommendations. Thanks, Gary

–

Response:

— Hi Gary., I would like to get in on this pump debate. I  do not think it is fair to say one specific pump is better than another one. The answer to your question I think is to do your research on pumps before buying one. The pumps can be divided into at least three groups. Submersible (sealed), submersible (magnetic drive) and in line such as a pool pump. The magnetic drive is very inexpensive on power consumption  but the trade off is a much lower head or less gallons delivered at higher heights. On the plus side the magnetic driven pump has replaceable  parts that the sealed submersible doesn’t have. The in line pump sitting up out of the pond has many advantages that submersible pumps do not have. Some of the options they offer are , offering the ability to draw water off of the bottom of the pond via a bottom drain,

Depending on how the filter is designed, all pumps mentioned above can draw water off the bottom. I have a Beckett submersible in a gravity-fed filter using the Tetra vacuum bottom drain. ~ jan See my ponds thru the seasons: http://jjspond.home.att.net/         ~Keep ‘em Wet!~      Tri-Cities WA    Zone 7a          To e-mail see website – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -definitely more gallonage per hour at very low power consumption.,as low as .88 amps for 1200 gallons per hour.The thing you want to look at first is how much water do you have to move? A small waterfall for example requires 50-60 gallons for every 1 inch wide. so for a waterfall 6 inches wide you would require 300 gallons per hour. If your pond is under 1000 gallons and you have a small filter sitting out of the pond as part of your watercourse you can check the magnetically driven pumps and they will have a chart describing the gallons pumped at each foot of rise.I think you will find that if you can incorporate a submerged pump that in time you will | Roger Pinette | Ponds Beautiful    (604) 534-9133 | http://www.pondsbeautiful.com Hi Gary, I am not familiar with Cal pumps since I was advised years ago to stay away from them. I used Little Giant pumps in the past and found that I never had clear water. If water quality and clear water is your goal you should considered using an outside pump and filter system. There will be people on this NG that will disagree but this is my opinion having used both. Outside filters are allot easier to maintain and outside pumps are really cheap to run 24/7. You may be able to pick up a used pump real cheap. see my filter setup at, good luck. http://sites.netscape.net/guppyusa/homepage I have a 2500 gallon pond, 3 months old, with a Cal 1200 pump.  It just doesn’t do the job and I want to upgrade it to make my waterfall more substantial.  The pump I choose needs to have an inline connection for the in-pond filter (yes, it’s crummy but it was not my design!).  I want something that is cheap to run and, yes, cheap to buy.  I was considering the Cal 2700 but would appreciate any advice or recommendations. Thanks, Gary

Response:

Hi Rennie, Welcome Back…  It’s great to have you back here where you belong. Between that awful Flu  and your server you’ve been absent for some time ….  Glad your doctors and your server got it all together … A hearty Welcome to Roger!    You know what that means Roger?    Bottom line:     You are Porg!!  You will be assimilated.  All efforts to become disentangled will be useless  (or something like that ;o) Nedra / Missouri / Zone 6 —  Nedra’s Ponds: www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/4836/

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — Hi Gary., I would like to get in on this pump debate. I  do not think it is fair to say one specific pump is better than another one. The answer to your question I think is to do your research on pumps before buying one. The pumps can be divided into at least three groups. Submersible (sealed), submersible (magnetic drive) and in line such as a pool pump. The magnetic drive is very inexpensive on power consumption  but the trade off is a much lower head or less gallons delivered at higher heights. On the plus side the magnetic driven pump has replaceable  parts that the sealed submersible doesn’t have. The in line pump sitting up out of the pond has many advantages that submersible pumps do not have. Some of the options they offer are , offering the ability to draw water off of the bottom of the pond via a bottom drain, definitely more gallonage per hour at very low power consumption.,as low as .88 amps for 1200 gallons per hour.The thing you want to look at first is how much water do you have to move? A small waterfall for example requires 50-60 gallons for every 1 inch wide. so for a waterfall 6 inches wide you would require 300 gallons per hour. If your pond is under 1000 gallons and you have a small filter sitting out of the pond as part of your watercourse you can check the magnetically driven pumps and they will have a chart describing the gallons pumped at each foot of rise.I think you will find that if you can incorporate a submerged pump that in time you will | Roger Pinette | Ponds Beautiful    (604) 534-9133 | http://www.pondsbeautiful.com Roger, welcome to the newsgroup. I’m sure all of us in rec.ponds will benefit from your many years of watergardening and Koi expertise… To the regulars in the NG, this is the gentleman that dropped everything he was doing the day of the vandalism to my pond and rushed out to be of assistance trying to get everything working again. Thank you again Roger for all your help….. Rennie in Abbotsford PS…ISP finally finished system re-build and put rec.ponds back on newsserver…nice to be back……

Response:

PS…ISP finally finished system re-build and put rec.ponds back on newsserver…nice to be back……

Rennie, welcome back, almost had to send the lily fairies after you. Unfortunately many seem to be AWOL from rec.ponds. Time to hit the books & magazines and get more pond related topics going. ;o) ~ jan

Response:

My 300 GPH Little Giant lasted 4 years. I don’t remember the model number but it cost about $60 at Home Depot. I replaced it with the same model and expect to get 4 years from the new one also, It runs 24/7 year round. —      Larry Wasserman     Baltimore, Maryland

Response:

A small waterfall for example requires 50-60 gallons for every 1 inch wide. so for a waterfall 6 inches wide you would require 300 gallons per hour.

That seems quite low… don’t most sources recommend about 100 gph per inch of sill width? – Rod

Response:

On the plus side the magnetic driven pump has replaceable  parts that the sealed submersible doesn’t have.

Are we talking about the same things here?  Most people saying ‘magnetic driven’ are talking strictly about Danner’s Supreme Mag-Drive.  iirc, that’s an epoxy sealed unit that has about 3 replaceable parts.  My ’sealed’ submersible has dozens of replacable parts – including the seals. — Derek (www.netcom.ca/~dbrought/pond) rec.ponds FAQ  http://w3.one.net/~rzutt/faq.html You can’t jail a free man, the best you can do is kill him. – Heinlein

Response:

I have a 2500 gallon pond, 3 months old, with a Cal 1200 pump.  It just doesn’t do the job and I want to upgrade it to make my waterfall more substantial.  The pump I choose needs to have an inline connection for the in-pond filter (yes, it’s crummy but it was not my design!).  I want something that is cheap to run and, yes, cheap to buy.  I was considering the Cal 2700 but would appreciate any advice or recommendations. Thanks, Gary

Response:

Hi Gary, I am not familiar with Cal pumps since I was advised years ago to stay away from them. I used Little Giant pumps in the past and found that I never had clear water. If water quality and clear water is your goal you should considered using an outside pump and filter system. There will be people on this NG that will disagree but this is my opinion having used both. Outside filters are allot easier to maintain and outside pumps are really cheap to run 24/7. You may be able to pick up a used pump real cheap. see my filter setup at, good luck. http://sites.netscape.net/guppyusa/homepage – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a 2500 gallon pond, 3 months old, with a Cal 1200 pump.  It just doesn’t do the job and I want to upgrade it to make my waterfall more substantial.  The pump I choose needs to have an inline connection for the in-pond filter (yes, it’s crummy but it was not my design!).  I want something that is cheap to run and, yes, cheap to buy.  I was considering the Cal 2700 but would appreciate any advice or recommendations. Thanks, Gary

Response:

I was considering the Cal 2700 but would appreciate any advice or recommendations.

Cal S2700 draws 3.8 amps at 2680 gph at 1 foot head, and costs $280. http://www.calpump.com/prod03.htm Sequence 1000 K3H1.111 draws 1.7 amps at 2590 gph at 4.4 foot head, and costs $375. http://members.aol.com/mdmpumps/pumpspecs.html Operating costs at average US electrical rates ($0.086/ kwh) are $344 and $154 per year for full time use, respectively.  (Of course, the waterfall doesn’t have to be run full time; a smaller pump would suffice for filtration and aeration.) This is just an example to illustrate that efficiency is more important than purchase price.  In this case, the more expensive pump pays for itself in 6 months operation, and may last longer as well.  There are many other brands besides these two. – Rod

Response:

– Hi Gary., I would like to get in on this pump debate. I  do not think it is fair to say one specific pump is better than another one. The answer to your question I think is to do your research on pumps before buying one. The pumps can be divided into at least three groups. Submersible (sealed), submersible (magnetic drive) and in line such as a pool pump. The magnetic drive is very inexpensive on power consumption  but the trade off is a much lower head or less gallons delivered at higher heights. On the plus side the magnetic driven pump has replaceable  parts that the sealed submersible doesn’t have. The in line pump sitting up out of the pond has many advantages that submersible pumps do not have. Some of the options they offer are , offering the ability to draw water off of the bottom of the pond via a bottom drain, definitely more gallonage per hour at very low power consumption.,as low as .88 amps for 1200 gallons per hour.The thing you want to look at first is how much water do you have to move? A small waterfall for example requires 50-60 gallons for every 1 inch wide. so for a waterfall 6 inches wide you would require 300 gallons per hour. If your pond is under 1000 gallons and you have a small filter sitting out of the pond as part of your watercourse you can check the magnetically driven pumps and they will have a chart describing the gallons pumped at each foot of rise.I think you will find that if you can incorporate a submerged pump that in time you will | Roger Pinette | Ponds Beautiful    (604) 534-9133 | http://www.pondsbeautiful.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Gary, I am not familiar with Cal pumps since I was advised years ago to stay away from them. I used Little Giant pumps in the past and found that I never had clear water. If water quality and clear water is your goal you should considered using an outside pump and filter system. There will be people on this NG that will disagree but this is my opinion having used both. Outside filters are allot easier to maintain and outside pumps are really cheap to run 24/7. You may be able to pick up a used pump real cheap. see my filter setup at, good luck. http://sites.netscape.net/guppyusa/homepage I have a 2500 gallon pond, 3 months old, with a Cal 1200 pump.  It just doesn’t do the job and I want to upgrade it to make my waterfall more substantial.  The pump I choose needs to have an inline connection for the in-pond filter (yes, it’s crummy but it was not my design!).  I want something that is cheap to run and, yes, cheap to buy.  I was considering the Cal 2700 but would appreciate any advice or recommendations. Thanks, Gary

Response:

        Thanks Rogeer for a lot of good info. I’d like to mention for discussion my experience with pumps so far. In our two ponds that we got when we moved, each had a Little Giant submersible pump. Both eventually started leaking coolant and had to be replaced.         They lasted only about 13 months (good work, as they are guaranteed for only a year!). One more lasted about the same. So, I replaced it with an above-ground pool pump with skimmer and filter, and that has done yeoman service, plugging away for two years now with no problem. It cost only a little more than the Little Giant even with skimmer and filter.         The dealers I talked with all said those submersible pumps are not designed to work full time without going belly up after about a year.         Any others had similar experiences?  |  NOTE: If you want to e-mail a reply, please strip |  |  off the letters "OOPS" from my address.           |  |              (Spam preventer)                      | – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text — Hi Gary., I would like to get in on this pump debate. I  do not think it is fair to say one specific pump is better than another one. The answer to your question I think is to do your research on pumps before buying one. The pumps can be divided into at least three groups. Submersible (sealed), submersible (magnetic drive) and in line such as a pool pump. The magnetic drive is very inexpensive on power consumption  but the trade off is a much lower head or less gallons delivered at higher heights. On the plus side the magnetic driven pump has replaceable  parts that the sealed submersible doesn’t have. The in line pump sitting up out of the pond has many advantages that submersible pumps do not have. Some of the options they offer are , offering the ability to draw water off of the bottom of the pond via a bottom drain, definitely more gallonage per hour at very low power consumption.,as low as .88 amps for 1200 gallons per hour.The thing you want to look at first is how much water do you have to move? A small waterfall for example requires 50-60 gallons for every 1 inch wide. so for a waterfall 6 inches wide you would require 300 gallons per hour. If your pond is under 1000 gallons and you have a small filter sitting out of the pond as part of your watercourse you can check the magnetically driven pumps and they will have a chart describing the gallons pumped at each foot of rise.I think you will find that if you can incorporate a submerged pump that in time you will | Roger Pinette | Ponds Beautiful    (604) 534-9133 | http://www.pondsbeautiful.com Hi Gary, I am not familiar with Cal pumps since I was advised years ago to stay away from them. I used Little Giant pumps in the past and found that I never had clear water. If water quality and clear water is your goal you should considered using an outside pump and filter system. There will be people on this NG that will disagree but this is my opinion having used both. Outside filters are allot easier to maintain and outside pumps are really cheap to run 24/7. You may be able to pick up a used pump real cheap. see my filter setup at, good luck. http://sites.netscape.net/guppyusa/homepage I have a 2500 gallon pond, 3 months old, with a Cal 1200 pump.  It just doesn’t do the job and I want to upgrade it to make my waterfall more substantial.  The pump I choose needs to have an inline connection for the in-pond filter (yes, it’s crummy but it was not my design!).  I want something that is cheap to run and, yes, cheap to buy.  I was considering the Cal 2700 but would appreciate any advice or recommendations. Thanks, Gary

–

Response:

— Hi Gary., I would like to get in on this pump debate. I  do not think it is fair to say one specific pump is better than another one. The answer to your question I think is to do your research on pumps before buying one. The pumps can be divided into at least three groups. Submersible (sealed), submersible (magnetic drive) and in line such as a pool pump. The magnetic drive is very inexpensive on power consumption  but the trade off is a much lower head or less gallons delivered at higher heights. On the plus side the magnetic driven pump has replaceable  parts that the sealed submersible doesn’t have. The in line pump sitting up out of the pond has many advantages that submersible pumps do not have. Some of the options they offer are , offering the ability to draw water off of the bottom of the pond via a bottom drain,

Depending on how the filter is designed, all pumps mentioned above can draw water off the bottom. I have a Beckett submersible in a gravity-fed filter using the Tetra vacuum bottom drain. ~ jan See my ponds thru the seasons: http://jjspond.home.att.net/         ~Keep ‘em Wet!~      Tri-Cities WA    Zone 7a          To e-mail see website – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -definitely more gallonage per hour at very low power consumption.,as low as .88 amps for 1200 gallons per hour.The thing you want to look at first is how much water do you have to move? A small waterfall for example requires 50-60 gallons for every 1 inch wide. so for a waterfall 6 inches wide you would require 300 gallons per hour. If your pond is under 1000 gallons and you have a small filter sitting out of the pond as part of your watercourse you can check the magnetically driven pumps and they will have a chart describing the gallons pumped at each foot of rise.I think you will find that if you can incorporate a submerged pump that in time you will | Roger Pinette | Ponds Beautiful    (604) 534-9133 | http://www.pondsbeautiful.com Hi Gary, I am not familiar with Cal pumps since I was advised years ago to stay away from them. I used Little Giant pumps in the past and found that I never had clear water. If water quality and clear water is your goal you should considered using an outside pump and filter system. There will be people on this NG that will disagree but this is my opinion having used both. Outside filters are allot easier to maintain and outside pumps are really cheap to run 24/7. You may be able to pick up a used pump real cheap. see my filter setup at, good luck. http://sites.netscape.net/guppyusa/homepage I have a 2500 gallon pond, 3 months old, with a Cal 1200 pump.  It just doesn’t do the job and I want to upgrade it to make my waterfall more substantial.  The pump I choose needs to have an inline connection for the in-pond filter (yes, it’s crummy but it was not my design!).  I want something that is cheap to run and, yes, cheap to buy.  I was considering the Cal 2700 but would appreciate any advice or recommendations. Thanks, Gary

Response:

Hi Rennie, Welcome Back…  It’s great to have you back here where you belong. Between that awful Flu  and your server you’ve been absent for some time ….  Glad your doctors and your server got it all together … A hearty Welcome to Roger!    You know what that means Roger?    Bottom line:     You are Porg!!  You will be assimilated.  All efforts to become disentangled will be useless  (or something like that ;o) Nedra / Missouri / Zone 6 —  Nedra’s Ponds: www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/4836/

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — Hi Gary., I would like to get in on this pump debate. I  do not think it is fair to say one specific pump is better than another one. The answer to your question I think is to do your research on pumps before buying one. The pumps can be divided into at least three groups. Submersible (sealed), submersible (magnetic drive) and in line such as a pool pump. The magnetic drive is very inexpensive on power consumption  but the trade off is a much lower head or less gallons delivered at higher heights. On the plus side the magnetic driven pump has replaceable  parts that the sealed submersible doesn’t have. The in line pump sitting up out of the pond has many advantages that submersible pumps do not have. Some of the options they offer are , offering the ability to draw water off of the bottom of the pond via a bottom drain, definitely more gallonage per hour at very low power consumption.,as low as .88 amps for 1200 gallons per hour.The thing you want to look at first is how much water do you have to move? A small waterfall for example requires 50-60 gallons for every 1 inch wide. so for a waterfall 6 inches wide you would require 300 gallons per hour. If your pond is under 1000 gallons and you have a small filter sitting out of the pond as part of your watercourse you can check the magnetically driven pumps and they will have a chart describing the gallons pumped at each foot of rise.I think you will find that if you can incorporate a submerged pump that in time you will | Roger Pinette | Ponds Beautiful    (604) 534-9133 | http://www.pondsbeautiful.com Roger, welcome to the newsgroup. I’m sure all of us in rec.ponds will benefit from your many years of watergardening and Koi expertise… To the regulars in the NG, this is the gentleman that dropped everything he was doing the day of the vandalism to my pond and rushed out to be of assistance trying to get everything working again. Thank you again Roger for all your help….. Rennie in Abbotsford PS…ISP finally finished system re-build and put rec.ponds back on newsserver…nice to be back……

Response:

PS…ISP finally finished system re-build and put rec.ponds back on newsserver…nice to be back……

Rennie, welcome back, almost had to send the lily fairies after you. Unfortunately many seem to be AWOL from rec.ponds. Time to hit the books & magazines and get more pond related topics going. ;o) ~ jan

Response:

My 300 GPH Little Giant lasted 4 years. I don’t remember the model number but it cost about $60 at Home Depot. I replaced it with the same model and expect to get 4 years from the new one also, It runs 24/7 year round. —      Larry Wasserman     Baltimore, Maryland

Response:

A small waterfall for example requires 50-60 gallons for every 1 inch wide. so for a waterfall 6 inches wide you would require 300 gallons per hour.

That seems quite low… don’t most sources recommend about 100 gph per inch of sill width? – Rod

Response:

On the plus side the magnetic driven pump has replaceable  parts that the sealed submersible doesn’t have.

Are we talking about the same things here?  Most people saying ‘magnetic driven’ are talking strictly about Danner’s Supreme Mag-Drive.  iirc, that’s an epoxy sealed unit that has about 3 replaceable parts.  My ’sealed’ submersible has dozens of replacable parts – including the seals. — Derek (www.netcom.ca/~dbrought/pond) rec.ponds FAQ  http://w3.one.net/~rzutt/faq.html You can’t jail a free man, the best you can do is kill him. – Heinlein

Response:

I have a 2500 gallon pond, 3 months old, with a Cal 1200 pump.  It just doesn’t do the job and I want to upgrade it to make my waterfall more substantial.  The pump I choose needs to have an inline connection for the in-pond filter (yes, it’s crummy but it was not my design!).  I want something that is cheap to run and, yes, cheap to buy.  I was considering the Cal 2700 but would appreciate any advice or recommendations. Thanks, Gary

Response:

Hi Gary, I am not familiar with Cal pumps since I was advised years ago to stay away from them. I used Little Giant pumps in the past and found that I never had clear water. If water quality and clear water is your goal you should considered using an outside pump and filter system. There will be people on this NG that will disagree but this is my opinion having used both. Outside filters are allot easier to maintain and outside pumps are really cheap to run 24/7. You may be able to pick up a used pump real cheap. see my filter setup at, good luck. http://sites.netscape.net/guppyusa/homepage – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a 2500 gallon pond, 3 months old, with a Cal 1200 pump.  It just doesn’t do the job and I want to upgrade it to make my waterfall more substantial.  The pump I choose needs to have an inline connection for the in-pond filter (yes, it’s crummy but it was not my design!).  I want something that is cheap to run and, yes, cheap to buy.  I was considering the Cal 2700 but would appreciate any advice or recommendations. Thanks, Gary

Response:

I was considering the Cal 2700 but would appreciate any advice or recommendations.

Cal S2700 draws 3.8 amps at 2680 gph at 1 foot head, and costs $280. http://www.calpump.com/prod03.htm Sequence 1000 K3H1.111 draws 1.7 amps at 2590 gph at 4.4 foot head, and costs $375. http://members.aol.com/mdmpumps/pumpspecs.html Operating costs at average US electrical rates ($0.086/ kwh) are $344 and $154 per year for full time use, respectively.  (Of course, the waterfall doesn’t have to be run full time; a smaller pump would suffice for filtration and aeration.) This is just an example to illustrate that efficiency is more important than purchase price.  In this case, the more expensive pump pays for itself in 6 months operation, and may last longer as well.  There are many other brands besides these two. – Rod

Response:

– Hi Gary., I would like to get in on this pump debate. I  do not think it is fair to say one specific pump is better than another one. The answer to your question I think is to do your research on pumps before buying one. The pumps can be divided into at least three groups. Submersible (sealed), submersible (magnetic drive) and in line such as a pool pump. The magnetic drive is very inexpensive on power consumption  but the trade off is a much lower head or less gallons delivered at higher heights. On the plus side the magnetic driven pump has replaceable  parts that the sealed submersible doesn’t have. The in line pump sitting up out of the pond has many advantages that submersible pumps do not have. Some of the options they offer are , offering the ability to draw water off of the bottom of the pond via a bottom drain, definitely more gallonage per hour at very low power consumption.,as low as .88 amps for 1200 gallons per hour.The thing you want to look at first is how much water do you have to move? A small waterfall for example requires 50-60 gallons for every 1 inch wide. so for a waterfall 6 inches wide you would require 300 gallons per hour. If your pond is under 1000 gallons and you have a small filter sitting out of the pond as part of your watercourse you can check the magnetically driven pumps and they will have a chart describing the gallons pumped at each foot of rise.I think you will find that if you can incorporate a submerged pump that in time you will | Roger Pinette | Ponds Beautiful    (604) 534-9133 | http://www.pondsbeautiful.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Gary, I am not familiar with Cal pumps since I was advised years ago to stay away from them. I used Little Giant pumps in the past and found that I never had clear water. If water quality and clear water is your goal you should considered using an outside pump and filter system. There will be people on this NG that will disagree but this is my opinion having used both. Outside filters are allot easier to maintain and outside pumps are really cheap to run 24/7. You may be able to pick up a used pump real cheap. see my filter setup at, good luck. http://sites.netscape.net/guppyusa/homepage I have a 2500 gallon pond, 3 months old, with a Cal 1200 pump.  It just doesn’t do the job and I want to upgrade it to make my waterfall more substantial.  The pump I choose needs to have an inline connection for the in-pond filter (yes, it’s crummy but it was not my design!).  I want something that is cheap to run and, yes, cheap to buy.  I was considering the Cal 2700 but would appreciate any advice or recommendations. Thanks, Gary

Response:

        Thanks Rogeer for a lot of good info. I’d like to mention for discussion my experience with pumps so far. In our two ponds that we got when we moved, each had a Little Giant submersible pump. Both eventually started leaking coolant and had to be replaced.         They lasted only about 13 months (good work, as they are guaranteed for only a year!). One more lasted about the same. So, I replaced it with an above-ground pool pump with skimmer and filter, and that has done yeoman service, plugging away for two years now with no problem. It cost only a little more than the Little Giant even with skimmer and filter.         The dealers I talked with all said those submersible pumps are not designed to work full time without going belly up after about a year.         Any others had similar experiences?  |  NOTE: If you want to e-mail a reply, please strip |  |  off the letters "OOPS" from my address.           |  |              (Spam preventer)                      | – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text — Hi Gary., I would like to get in on this pump debate. I  do not think it is fair to say one specific pump is better than another one. The answer to your question I think is to do your research on pumps before buying one. The pumps can be divided into at least three groups. Submersible (sealed), submersible (magnetic drive) and in line such as a pool pump. The magnetic drive is very inexpensive on power consumption  but the trade off is a much lower head or less gallons delivered at higher heights. On the plus side the magnetic driven pump has replaceable  parts that the sealed submersible doesn’t have. The in line pump sitting up out of the pond has many advantages that submersible pumps do not have. Some of the options they offer are , offering the ability to draw water off of the bottom of the pond via a bottom drain, definitely more gallonage per hour at very low power consumption.,as low as .88 amps for 1200 gallons per hour.The thing you want to look at first is how much water do you have to move? A small waterfall for example requires 50-60 gallons for every 1 inch wide. so for a waterfall 6 inches wide you would require 300 gallons per hour. If your pond is under 1000 gallons and you have a small filter sitting out of the pond as part of your watercourse you can check the magnetically driven pumps and they will have a chart describing the gallons pumped at each foot of rise.I think you will find that if you can incorporate a submerged pump that in time you will | Roger Pinette | Ponds Beautiful    (604) 534-9133 | http://www.pondsbeautiful.com Hi Gary, I am not familiar with Cal pumps since I was advised years ago to stay away from them. I used Little Giant pumps in the past and found that I never had clear water. If water quality and clear water is your goal you should considered using an outside pump and filter system. There will be people on this NG that will disagree but this is my opinion having used both. Outside filters are allot easier to maintain and outside pumps are really cheap to run 24/7. You may be able to pick up a used pump real cheap. see my filter setup at, good luck. http://sites.netscape.net/guppyusa/homepage I have a 2500 gallon pond, 3 months old, with a Cal 1200 pump.  It just doesn’t do the job and I want to upgrade it to make my waterfall more substantial.  The pump I choose needs to have an inline connection for the in-pond filter (yes, it’s crummy but it was not my design!).  I want something that is cheap to run and, yes, cheap to buy.  I was considering the Cal 2700 but would appreciate any advice or recommendations. Thanks, Gary

–

Response:

— Hi Gary., I would like to get in on this pump debate. I  do not think it is fair to say one specific pump is better than another one. The answer to your question I think is to do your research on pumps before buying one. The pumps can be divided into at least three groups. Submersible (sealed), submersible (magnetic drive) and in line such as a pool pump. The magnetic drive is very inexpensive on power consumption  but the trade off is a much lower head or less gallons delivered at higher heights. On the plus side the magnetic driven pump has replaceable  parts that the sealed submersible doesn’t have. The in line pump sitting up out of the pond has many advantages that submersible pumps do not have. Some of the options they offer are , offering the ability to draw water off of the bottom of the pond via a bottom drain,

Depending on how the filter is designed, all pumps mentioned above can draw water off the bottom. I have a Beckett submersible in a gravity-fed filter using the Tetra vacuum bottom drain. ~ jan See my ponds thru the seasons: http://jjspond.home.att.net/         ~Keep ‘em Wet!~      Tri-Cities WA    Zone 7a          To e-mail see website – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -definitely more gallonage per hour at very low power consumption.,as low as .88 amps for 1200 gallons per hour.The thing you want to look at first is how much water do you have to move? A small waterfall for example requires 50-60 gallons for every 1 inch wide. so for a waterfall 6 inches wide you would require 300 gallons per hour. If your pond is under 1000 gallons and you have a small filter sitting out of the pond as part of your watercourse you can check the magnetically driven pumps and they will have a chart describing the gallons pumped at each foot of rise.I think you will find that if you can incorporate a submerged pump that in time you will | Roger Pinette | Ponds Beautiful    (604) 534-9133 | http://www.pondsbeautiful.com Hi Gary, I am not familiar with Cal pumps since I was advised years ago to stay away from them. I used Little Giant pumps in the past and found that I never had clear water. If water quality and clear water is your goal you should considered using an outside pump and filter system. There will be people on this NG that will disagree but this is my opinion having used both. Outside filters are allot easier to maintain and outside pumps are really cheap to run 24/7. You may be able to pick up a used pump real cheap. see my filter setup at, good luck. http://sites.netscape.net/guppyusa/homepage I have a 2500 gallon pond, 3 months old, with a Cal 1200 pump.  It just doesn’t do the job and I want to upgrade it to make my waterfall more substantial.  The pump I choose needs to have an inline connection for the in-pond filter (yes, it’s crummy but it was not my design!).  I want something that is cheap to run and, yes, cheap to buy.  I was considering the Cal 2700 but would appreciate any advice or recommendations. Thanks, Gary

Response:

Hi Rennie, Welcome Back…  It’s great to have you back here where you belong. Between that awful Flu  and your server you’ve been absent for some time ….  Glad your doctors and your server got it all together … A hearty Welcome to Roger!    You know what that means Roger?    Bottom line:     You are Porg!!  You will be assimilated.  All efforts to become disentangled will be useless  (or something like that ;o) Nedra / Missouri / Zone 6 —  Nedra’s Ponds: www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/4836/

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — Hi Gary., I would like to get in on this pump debate. I  do not think it is fair to say one specific pump is better than another one. The answer to your question I think is to do your research on pumps before buying one. The pumps can be divided into at least three groups. Submersible (sealed), submersible (magnetic drive) and in line such as a pool pump. The magnetic drive is very inexpensive on power consumption  but the trade off is a much lower head or less gallons delivered at higher heights. On the plus side the magnetic driven pump has replaceable  parts that the sealed submersible doesn’t have. The in line pump sitting up out of the pond has many advantages that submersible pumps do not have. Some of the options they offer are , offering the ability to draw water off of the bottom of the pond via a bottom drain, definitely more gallonage per hour at very low power consumption.,as low as .88 amps for 1200 gallons per hour.The thing you want to look at first is how much water do you have to move? A small waterfall for example requires 50-60 gallons for every 1 inch wide. so for a waterfall 6 inches wide you would require 300 gallons per hour. If your pond is under 1000 gallons and you have a small filter sitting out of the pond as part of your watercourse you can check the magnetically driven pumps and they will have a chart describing the gallons pumped at each foot of rise.I think you will find that if you can incorporate a submerged pump that in time you will | Roger Pinette | Ponds Beautiful    (604) 534-9133 | http://www.pondsbeautiful.com Roger, welcome to the newsgroup. I’m sure all of us in rec.ponds will benefit from your many years of watergardening and Koi expertise… To the regulars in the NG, this is the gentleman that dropped everything he was doing the day of the vandalism to my pond and rushed out to be of assistance trying to get everything working again. Thank you again Roger for all your help….. Rennie in Abbotsford PS…ISP finally finished system re-build and put rec.ponds back on newsserver…nice to be back……

Response:

PS…ISP finally finished system re-build and put rec.ponds back on newsserver…nice to be back……

Rennie, welcome back, almost had to send the lily fairies after you. Unfortunately many seem to be AWOL from rec.ponds. Time to hit the books & magazines and get more pond related topics going. ;o) ~ jan

Response:

My 300 GPH Little Giant lasted 4 years. I don’t remember the model number but it cost about $60 at Home Depot. I replaced it with the same model and expect to get 4 years from the new one also, It runs 24/7 year round. —      Larry Wasserman     Baltimore, Maryland

Response:

A small waterfall for example requires 50-60 gallons for every 1 inch wide. so for a waterfall 6 inches wide you would require 300 gallons per hour.

That seems quite low… don’t most sources recommend about 100 gph per inch of sill width? – Rod

Response:

On the plus side the magnetic driven pump has replaceable  parts that the sealed submersible doesn’t have.

Are we talking about the same things here?  Most people saying ‘magnetic driven’ are talking strictly about Danner’s Supreme Mag-Drive.  iirc, that’s an epoxy sealed unit that has about 3 replaceable parts.  My ’sealed’ submersible has dozens of replacable parts – including the seals. — Derek (www.netcom.ca/~dbrought/pond) rec.ponds FAQ  http://w3.one.net/~rzutt/faq.html You can’t jail a free man, the best you can do is kill him. – Heinlein

Response:

I have a 2500 gallon pond, 3 months old, with a Cal 1200 pump.  It just doesn’t do the job and I want to upgrade it to make my waterfall more substantial.  The pump I choose needs to have an inline connection for the in-pond filter (yes, it’s crummy but it was not my design!).  I want something that is cheap to run and, yes, cheap to buy.  I was considering the Cal 2700 but would appreciate any advice or recommendations. Thanks, Gary

Response:

Hi Gary, I am not familiar with Cal pumps since I was advised years ago to stay away from them. I used Little Giant pumps in the past and found that I never had clear water. If water quality and clear water is your goal you should considered using an outside pump and filter system. There will be people on this NG that will disagree but this is my opinion having used both. Outside filters are allot easier to maintain and outside pumps are really cheap to run 24/7. You may be able to pick up a used pump real cheap. see my filter setup at, good luck. http://sites.netscape.net/guppyusa/homepage – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a 2500 gallon pond, 3 months old, with a Cal 1200 pump.  It just doesn’t do the job and I want to upgrade it to make my waterfall more substantial.  The pump I choose needs to have an inline connection for the in-pond filter (yes, it’s crummy but it was not my design!).  I want something that is cheap to run and, yes, cheap to buy.  I was considering the Cal 2700 but would appreciate any advice or recommendations. Thanks, Gary

Response:

I was considering the Cal 2700 but would appreciate any advice or recommendations.

Cal S2700 draws 3.8 amps at 2680 gph at 1 foot head, and costs $280. http://www.calpump.com/prod03.htm Sequence 1000 K3H1.111 draws 1.7 amps at 2590 gph at 4.4 foot head, and costs $375. http://members.aol.com/mdmpumps/pumpspecs.html Operating costs at average US electrical rates ($0.086/ kwh) are $344 and $154 per year for full time use, respectively.  (Of course, the waterfall doesn’t have to be run full time; a smaller pump would suffice for filtration and aeration.) This is just an example to illustrate that efficiency is more important than purchase price.  In this case, the more expensive pump pays for itself in 6 months operation, and may last longer as well.  There are many other brands besides these two. – Rod

Response:

– Hi Gary., I would like to get in on this pump debate. I  do not think it is fair to say one specific pump is better than another one. The answer to your question I think is to do your research on pumps before buying one. The pumps can be divided into at least three groups. Submersible (sealed), submersible (magnetic drive) and in line such as a pool pump. The magnetic drive is very inexpensive on power consumption  but the trade off is a much lower head or less gallons delivered at higher heights. On the plus side the magnetic driven pump has replaceable  parts that the sealed submersible doesn’t have. The in line pump sitting up out of the pond has many advantages that submersible pumps do not have. Some of the options they offer are , offering the ability to draw water off of the bottom of the pond via a bottom drain, definitely more gallonage per hour at very low power consumption.,as low as .88 amps for 1200 gallons per hour.The thing you want to look at first is how much water do you have to move? A small waterfall for example requires 50-60 gallons for every 1 inch wide. so for a waterfall 6 inches wide you would require 300 gallons per hour. If your pond is under 1000 gallons and you have a small filter sitting out of the pond as part of your watercourse you can check the magnetically driven pumps and they will have a chart describing the gallons pumped at each foot of rise.I think you will find that if you can incorporate a submerged pump that in time you will | Roger Pinette | Ponds Beautiful    (604) 534-9133 | http://www.pondsbeautiful.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Gary, I am not familiar with Cal pumps since I was advised years ago to stay away from them. I used Little Giant pumps in the past and found that I never had clear water. If water quality and clear water is your goal you should considered using an outside pump and filter system. There will be people on this NG that will disagree but this is my opinion having used both. Outside filters are allot easier to maintain and outside pumps are really cheap to run 24/7. You may be able to pick up a used pump real cheap. see my filter setup at, good luck. http://sites.netscape.net/guppyusa/homepage I have a 2500 gallon pond, 3 months old, with a Cal 1200 pump.  It just doesn’t do the job and I want to upgrade it to make my waterfall more substantial.  The pump I choose needs to have an inline connection for the in-pond filter (yes, it’s crummy but it was not my design!).  I want something that is cheap to run and, yes, cheap to buy.  I was considering the Cal 2700 but would appreciate any advice or recommendations. Thanks, Gary

Response:

        Thanks Rogeer for a lot of good info. I’d like to mention for discussion my experience with pumps so far. In our two ponds that we got when we moved, each had a Little Giant submersible pump. Both eventually started leaking coolant and had to be replaced.         They lasted only about 13 months (good work, as they are guaranteed for only a year!). One more lasted about the same. So, I replaced it with an above-ground pool pump with skimmer and filter, and that has done yeoman service, plugging away for two years now with no problem. It cost only a little more than the Little Giant even with skimmer and filter.         The dealers I talked with all said those submersible pumps are not designed to work full time without going belly up after about a year.         Any others had similar experiences?  |  NOTE: If you want to e-mail a reply, please strip |  |  off the letters "OOPS" from my address.           |  |              (Spam preventer)                      | – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text — Hi Gary., I would like to get in on this pump debate. I  do not think it is fair to say one specific pump is better than another one. The answer to your question I think is to do your research on pumps before buying one. The pumps can be divided into at least three groups. Submersible (sealed), submersible (magnetic drive) and in line such as a pool pump. The magnetic drive is very inexpensive on power consumption  but the trade off is a much lower head or less gallons delivered at higher heights. On the plus side the magnetic driven pump has replaceable  parts that the sealed submersible doesn’t have. The in line pump sitting up out of the pond has many advantages that submersible pumps do not have. Some of the options they offer are , offering the ability to draw water off of the bottom of the pond via a bottom drain, definitely more gallonage per hour at very low power consumption.,as low as .88 amps for 1200 gallons per hour.The thing you want to look at first is how much water do you have to move? A small waterfall for example requires 50-60 gallons for every 1 inch wide. so for a waterfall 6 inches wide you would require 300 gallons per hour. If your pond is under 1000 gallons and you have a small filter sitting out of the pond as part of your watercourse you can check the magnetically driven pumps and they will have a chart describing the gallons pumped at each foot of rise.I think you will find that if you can incorporate a submerged pump that in time you will | Roger Pinette | Ponds Beautiful    (604) 534-9133 | http://www.pondsbeautiful.com Hi Gary, I am not familiar with Cal pumps since I was advised years ago to stay away from them. I used Little Giant pumps in the past and found that I never had clear water. If water quality and clear water is your goal you should considered using an outside pump and filter system. There will be people on this NG that will disagree but this is my opinion having used both. Outside filters are allot easier to maintain and outside pumps are really cheap to run 24/7. You may be able to pick up a used pump real cheap. see my filter setup at, good luck. http://sites.netscape.net/guppyusa/homepage I have a 2500 gallon pond, 3 months old, with a Cal 1200 pump.  It just doesn’t do the job and I want to upgrade it to make my waterfall more substantial.  The pump I choose needs to have an inline connection for the in-pond filter (yes, it’s crummy but it was not my design!).  I want something that is cheap to run and, yes, cheap to buy.  I was considering the Cal 2700 but would appreciate any advice or recommendations. Thanks, Gary

–

Response:

— Hi Gary., I would like to get in on this pump debate. I  do not think it is fair to say one specific pump is better than another one. The answer to your question I think is to do your research on pumps before buying one. The pumps can be divided into at least three groups. Submersible (sealed), submersible (magnetic drive) and in line such as a pool pump. The magnetic drive is very inexpensive on power consumption  but the trade off is a much lower head or less gallons delivered at higher heights. On the plus side the magnetic driven pump has replaceable  parts that the sealed submersible doesn’t have. The in line pump sitting up out of the pond has many advantages that submersible pumps do not have. Some of the options they offer are , offering the ability to draw water off of the bottom of the pond via a bottom drain,

Depending on how the filter is designed, all pumps mentioned above can draw water off the bottom. I have a Beckett submersible in a gravity-fed filter using the Tetra vacuum bottom drain. ~ jan See my ponds thru the seasons: http://jjspond.home.att.net/         ~Keep ‘em Wet!~      Tri-Cities WA    Zone 7a          To e-mail see website – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -definitely more gallonage per hour at very low power consumption.,as low as .88 amps for 1200 gallons per hour.The thing you want to look at first is how much water do you have to move? A small waterfall for example requires 50-60 gallons for every 1 inch wide. so for a waterfall 6 inches wide you would require 300 gallons per hour. If your pond is under 1000 gallons and you have a small filter sitting out of the pond as part of your watercourse you can check the magnetically driven pumps and they will have a chart describing the gallons pumped at each foot of rise.I think you will find that if you can incorporate a submerged pump that in time you will | Roger Pinette | Ponds Beautiful    (604) 534-9133 | http://www.pondsbeautiful.com Hi Gary, I am not familiar with Cal pumps since I was advised years ago to stay away from them. I used Little Giant pumps in the past and found that I never had clear water. If water quality and clear water is your goal you should considered using an outside pump and filter system. There will be people on this NG that will disagree but this is my opinion having used both. Outside filters are allot easier to maintain and outside pumps are really cheap to run 24/7. You may be able to pick up a used pump real cheap. see my filter setup at, good luck. http://sites.netscape.net/guppyusa/homepage I have a 2500 gallon pond, 3 months old, with a Cal 1200 pump.  It just doesn’t do the job and I want to upgrade it to make my waterfall more substantial.  The pump I choose needs to have an inline connection for the in-pond filter (yes, it’s crummy but it was not my design!).  I want something that is cheap to run and, yes, cheap to buy.  I was considering the Cal 2700 but would appreciate any advice or recommendations. Thanks, Gary

Response:

Hi Rennie, Welcome Back…  It’s great to have you back here where you belong. Between that awful Flu  and your server you’ve been absent for some time ….  Glad your doctors and your server got it all together … A hearty Welcome to Roger!    You know what that means Roger?    Bottom line:     You are Porg!!  You will be assimilated.  All efforts to become disentangled will be useless  (or something like that ;o) Nedra / Missouri / Zone 6 —  Nedra’s Ponds: www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/4836/

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — Hi Gary., I would like to get in on this pump debate. I  do not think it is fair to say one specific pump is better than another one. The answer to your question I think is to do your research on pumps before buying one. The pumps can be divided into at least three groups. Submersible (sealed), submersible (magnetic drive) and in line such as a pool pump. The magnetic drive is very inexpensive on power consumption  but the trade off is a much lower head or less gallons delivered at higher heights. On the plus side the magnetic driven pump has replaceable  parts that the sealed submersible doesn’t have. The in line pump sitting up out of the pond has many advantages that submersible pumps do not have. Some of the options they offer are , offering the ability to draw water off of the bottom of the pond via a bottom drain, definitely more gallonage per hour at very low power consumption.,as low as .88 amps for 1200 gallons per hour.The thing you want to look at first is how much water do you have to move? A small waterfall for example requires 50-60 gallons for every 1 inch wide. so for a waterfall 6 inches wide you would require 300 gallons per hour. If your pond is under 1000 gallons and you have a small filter sitting out of the pond as part of your watercourse you can check the magnetically driven pumps and they will have a chart describing the gallons pumped at each foot of rise.I think you will find that if you can incorporate a submerged pump that in time you will | Roger Pinette | Ponds Beautiful    (604) 534-9133 | http://www.pondsbeautiful.com Roger, welcome to the newsgroup. I’m sure all of us in rec.ponds will benefit from your many years of watergardening and Koi expertise… To the regulars in the NG, this is the gentleman that dropped everything he was doing the day of the vandalism to my pond and rushed out to be of assistance trying to get everything working again. Thank you again Roger for all your help….. Rennie in Abbotsford PS…ISP finally finished system re-build and put rec.ponds back on newsserver…nice to be back……

Response:

PS…ISP finally finished system re-build and put rec.ponds back on newsserver…nice to be back……

Rennie, welcome back, almost had to send the lily fairies after you. Unfortunately many seem to be AWOL from rec.ponds. Time to hit the books & magazines and get more pond related topics going. ;o) ~ jan

Response:

My 300 GPH Little Giant lasted 4 years. I don’t remember the model number but it cost about $60 at Home Depot. I replaced it with the same model and expect to get 4 years from the new one also, It runs 24/7 year round. —      Larry Wasserman     Baltimore, Maryland

Response:

A small waterfall for example requires 50-60 gallons for every 1 inch wide. so for a waterfall 6 inches wide you would require 300 gallons per hour.

That seems quite low… don’t most sources recommend about 100 gph per inch of sill width? – Rod

Response:

On the plus side the magnetic driven pump has replaceable  parts that the sealed submersible doesn’t have.

Are we talking about the same things here?  Most people saying ‘magnetic driven’ are talking strictly about Danner’s Supreme Mag-Drive.  iirc, that’s an epoxy sealed unit that has about 3 replaceable parts.  My ’sealed’ submersible has dozens of replacable parts – including the seals. — Derek (www.netcom.ca/~dbrought/pond) rec.ponds FAQ  http://w3.one.net/~rzutt/faq.html You can’t jail a free man, the best you can do is kill him. – Heinlein

Response:

I have a 2500 gallon pond, 3 months old, with a Cal 1200 pump.  It just doesn’t do the job and I want to upgrade it to make my waterfall more substantial.  The pump I choose needs to have an inline connection for the in-pond filter (yes, it’s crummy but it was not my design!).  I want something that is cheap to run and, yes, cheap to buy.  I was considering the Cal 2700 but would appreciate any advice or recommendations. Thanks, Gary

Response:

Hi Gary, I am not familiar with Cal pumps since I was advised years ago to stay away from them. I used Little Giant pumps in the past and found that I never had clear water. If water quality and clear water is your goal you should considered using an outside pump and filter system. There will be people on this NG that will disagree but this is my opinion having used both. Outside filters are allot easier to maintain and outside pumps are really cheap to run 24/7. You may be able to pick up a used pump real cheap. see my filter setup at, good luck. http://sites.netscape.net/guppyusa/homepage – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a 2500 gallon pond, 3 months old, with a Cal 1200 pump.  It just doesn’t do the job and I want to upgrade it to make my waterfall more substantial.  The pump I choose needs to have an inline connection for the in-pond filter (yes, it’s crummy but it was not my design!).  I want something that is cheap to run and, yes, cheap to buy.  I was considering the Cal 2700 but would appreciate any advice or recommendations. Thanks, Gary

Response:

I was considering the Cal 2700 but would appreciate any advice or recommendations.

Cal S2700 draws 3.8 amps at 2680 gph at 1 foot head, and costs $280. http://www.calpump.com/prod03.htm Sequence 1000 K3H1.111 draws 1.7 amps at 2590 gph at 4.4 foot head, and costs $375. http://members.aol.com/mdmpumps/pumpspecs.html Operating costs at average US electrical rates ($0.086/ kwh) are $344 and $154 per year for full time use, respectively.  (Of course, the waterfall doesn’t have to be run full time; a smaller pump would suffice for filtration and aeration.) This is just an example to illustrate that efficiency is more important than purchase price.  In this case, the more expensive pump pays for itself in 6 months operation, and may last longer as well.  There are many other brands besides these two. – Rod

Response:

– Hi Gary., I would like to get in on this pump debate. I  do not think it is fair to say one specific pump is better than another one. The answer to your question I think is to do your research on pumps before buying one. The pumps can be divided into at least three groups. Submersible (sealed), submersible (magnetic drive) and in line such as a pool pump. The magnetic drive is very inexpensive on power consumption  but the trade off is a much lower head or less gallons delivered at higher heights. On the plus side the magnetic driven pump has replaceable  parts that the sealed submersible doesn’t have. The in line pump sitting up out of the pond has many advantages that submersible pumps do not have. Some of the options they offer are , offering the ability to draw water off of the bottom of the pond via a bottom drain, definitely more gallonage per hour at very low power consumption.,as low as .88 amps for 1200 gallons per hour.The thing you want to look at first is how much water do you have to move? A small waterfall for example requires 50-60 gallons for every 1 inch wide. so for a waterfall 6 inches wide you would require 300 gallons per hour. If your pond is under 1000 gallons and you have a small filter sitting out of the pond as part of your watercourse you can check the magnetically driven pumps and they will have a chart describing the gallons pumped at each foot of rise.I think you will find that if you can incorporate a submerged pump that in time you will | Roger Pinette | Ponds Beautiful    (604) 534-9133 | http://www.pondsbeautiful.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Gary, I am not familiar with Cal pumps since I was advised years ago to stay away from them. I used Little Giant pumps in the past and found that I never had clear water. If water quality and clear water is your goal you should considered using an outside pump and filter system. There will be people on this NG that will disagree but this is my opinion having used both. Outside filters are allot easier to maintain and outside pumps are really cheap to run 24/7. You may be able to pick up a used pump real cheap. see my filter setup at, good luck. http://sites.netscape.net/guppyusa/homepage I have a 2500 gallon pond, 3 months old, with a Cal 1200 pump.  It just doesn’t do the job and I want to upgrade it to make my waterfall more substantial.  The pump I choose needs to have an inline connection for the in-pond filter (yes, it’s crummy but it was not my design!).  I want something that is cheap to run and, yes, cheap to buy.  I was considering the Cal 2700 but would appreciate any advice or recommendations. Thanks, Gary

Response:

        Thanks Rogeer for a lot of good info. I’d like to mention for discussion my experience with pumps so far. In our two ponds that we got when we moved, each had a Little Giant submersible pump. Both eventually started leaking coolant and had to be replaced.         They lasted only about 13 months (good work, as they are guaranteed for only a year!). One more lasted about the same. So, I replaced it with an above-ground pool pump with skimmer and filter, and that has done yeoman service, plugging away for two years now with no problem. It cost only a little more than the Little Giant even with skimmer and filter.         The dealers I talked with all said those submersible pumps are not designed to work full time without going belly up after about a year.         Any others had similar experiences?  |  NOTE: If you want to e-mail a reply, please strip |  |  off the letters "OOPS" from my address.           |  |              (Spam preventer)                      | – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text — Hi Gary., I would like to get in on this pump debate. I  do not think it is fair to say one specific pump is better than another one. The answer to your question I think is to do your research on pumps before buying one. The pumps can be divided into at least three groups. Submersible (sealed), submersible (magnetic drive) and in line such as a pool pump. The magnetic drive is very inexpensive on power consumption  but the trade off is a much lower head or less gallons delivered at higher heights. On the plus side the magnetic driven pump has replaceable  parts that the sealed submersible doesn’t have. The in line pump sitting up out of the pond has many advantages that submersible pumps do not have. Some of the options they offer are , offering the ability to draw water off of the bottom of the pond via a bottom drain, definitely more gallonage per hour at very low power consumption.,as low as .88 amps for 1200 gallons per hour.The thing you want to look at first is how much water do you have to move? A small waterfall for example requires 50-60 gallons for every 1 inch wide. so for a waterfall 6 inches wide you would require 300 gallons per hour. If your pond is under 1000 gallons and you have a small filter sitting out of the pond as part of your watercourse you can check the magnetically driven pumps and they will have a chart describing the gallons pumped at each foot of rise.I think you will find that if you can incorporate a submerged pump that in time you will | Roger Pinette | Ponds Beautiful    (604) 534-9133 | http://www.pondsbeautiful.com Hi Gary, I am not familiar with Cal pumps since I was advised years ago to stay away from them. I used Little Giant pumps in the past and found that I never had clear water. If water quality and clear water is your goal you should considered using an outside pump and filter system. There will be people on this NG that will disagree but this is my opinion having used both. Outside filters are allot easier to maintain and outside pumps are really cheap to run 24/7. You may be able to pick up a used pump real cheap. see my filter setup at, good luck. http://sites.netscape.net/guppyusa/homepage I have a 2500 gallon pond, 3 months old, with a Cal 1200 pump.  It just doesn’t do the job and I want to upgrade it to make my waterfall more substantial.  The pump I choose needs to have an inline connection for the in-pond filter (yes, it’s crummy but it was not my design!).  I want something that is cheap to run and, yes, cheap to buy.  I was considering the Cal 2700 but would appreciate any advice or recommendations. Thanks, Gary

–

Response:

— Hi Gary., I would like to get in on this pump debate. I  do not think it is fair to say one specific pump is better than another one. The answer to your question I think is to do your research on pumps before buying one. The pumps can be divided into at least three groups. Submersible (sealed), submersible (magnetic drive) and in line such as a pool pump. The magnetic drive is very inexpensive on power consumption  but the trade off is a much lower head or less gallons delivered at higher heights. On the plus side the magnetic driven pump has replaceable  parts that the sealed submersible doesn’t have. The in line pump sitting up out of the pond has many advantages that submersible pumps do not have. Some of the options they offer are , offering the ability to draw water off of the bottom of the pond via a bottom drain,

Depending on how the filter is designed, all pumps mentioned above can draw water off the bottom. I have a Beckett submersible in a gravity-fed filter using the Tetra vacuum bottom drain. ~ jan See my ponds thru the seasons: http://jjspond.home.att.net/         ~Keep ‘em Wet!~      Tri-Cities WA    Zone 7a          To e-mail see website – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -definitely more gallonage per hour at very low power consumption.,as low as .88 amps for 1200 gallons per hour.The thing you want to look at first is how much water do you have to move? A small waterfall for example requires 50-60 gallons for every 1 inch wide. so for a waterfall 6 inches wide you would require 300 gallons per hour. If your pond is under 1000 gallons and you have a small filter sitting out of the pond as part of your watercourse you can check the magnetically driven pumps and they will have a chart describing the gallons pumped at each foot of rise.I think you will find that if you can incorporate a submerged pump that in time you will | Roger Pinette | Ponds Beautiful    (604) 534-9133 | http://www.pondsbeautiful.com Hi Gary, I am not familiar with Cal pumps since I was advised years ago to stay away from them. I used Little Giant pumps in the past and found that I never had clear water. If water quality and clear water is your goal you should considered using an outside pump and filter system. There will be people on this NG that will disagree but this is my opinion having used both. Outside filters are allot easier to maintain and outside pumps are really cheap to run 24/7. You may be able to pick up a used pump real cheap. see my filter setup at, good luck. http://sites.netscape.net/guppyusa/homepage I have a 2500 gallon pond, 3 months old, with a Cal 1200 pump.  It just doesn’t do the job and I want to upgrade it to make my waterfall more substantial.  The pump I choose needs to have an inline connection for the in-pond filter (yes, it’s crummy but it was not my design!).  I want something that is cheap to run and, yes, cheap to buy.  I was considering the Cal 2700 but would appreciate any advice or recommendations. Thanks, Gary

Response:

Hi Rennie, Welcome Back…  It’s great to have you back here where you belong. Between that awful Flu  and your server you’ve been absent for some time ….  Glad your doctors and your server got it all together … A hearty Welcome to Roger!    You know what that means Roger?    Bottom line:     You are Porg!!  You will be assimilated.  All efforts to become disentangled will be useless  (or something like that ;o) Nedra / Missouri / Zone 6 —  Nedra’s Ponds: www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/4836/

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — Hi Gary., I would like to get in on this pump debate. I  do not think it is fair to say one specific pump is better than another one. The answer to your question I think is to do your research on pumps before buying one. The pumps can be divided into at least three groups. Submersible (sealed), submersible (magnetic drive) and in line such as a pool pump. The magnetic drive is very inexpensive on power consumption  but the trade off is a much lower head or less gallons delivered at higher heights. On the plus side the magnetic driven pump has replaceable  parts that the sealed submersible doesn’t have. The in line pump sitting up out of the pond has many advantages that submersible pumps do not have. Some of the options they offer are , offering the ability to draw water off of the bottom of the pond via a bottom drain, definitely more gallonage per hour at very low power consumption.,as low as .88 amps for 1200 gallons per hour.The thing you want to look at first is how much water do you have to move? A small waterfall for example requires 50-60 gallons for every 1 inch wide. so for a waterfall 6 inches wide you would require 300 gallons per hour. If your pond is under 1000 gallons and you have a small filter sitting out of the pond as part of your watercourse you can check the magnetically driven pumps and they will have a chart describing the gallons pumped at each foot of rise.I think you will find that if you can incorporate a submerged pump that in time you will | Roger Pinette | Ponds Beautiful    (604) 534-9133 | http://www.pondsbeautiful.com Roger, welcome to the newsgroup. I’m sure all of us in rec.ponds will benefit from your many years of watergardening and Koi expertise… To the regulars in the NG, this is the gentleman that dropped everything he was doing the day of the vandalism to my pond and rushed out to be of assistance trying to get everything working again. Thank you again Roger for all your help….. Rennie in Abbotsford PS…ISP finally finished system re-build and put rec.ponds back on newsserver…nice to be back……

Response:

PS…ISP finally finished system re-build and put rec.ponds back on newsserver…nice to be back……

Rennie, welcome back, almost had to send the lily fairies after you. Unfortunately many seem to be AWOL from rec.ponds. Time to hit the books & magazines and get more pond related topics going. ;o) ~ jan

Response:

My 300 GPH Little Giant lasted 4 years. I don’t remember the model number but it cost about $60 at Home Depot. I replaced it with the same model and expect to get 4 years from the new one also, It runs 24/7 year round. —      Larry Wasserman     Baltimore, Maryland

Response:

A small waterfall for example requires 50-60 gallons for every 1 inch wide. so for a waterfall 6 inches wide you would require 300 gallons per hour.

That seems quite low… don’t most sources recommend about 100 gph per inch of sill width? – Rod

Response:

On the plus side the magnetic driven pump has replaceable  parts that the sealed submersible doesn’t have.

Are we talking about the same things here?  Most people saying ‘magnetic driven’ are talking strictly about Danner’s Supreme Mag-Drive.  iirc, that’s an epoxy sealed unit that has about 3 replaceable parts.  My ’sealed’ submersible has dozens of replacable parts – including the seals. — Derek (www.netcom.ca/~dbrought/pond) rec.ponds FAQ  http://w3.one.net/~rzutt/faq.html You can’t jail a free man, the best you can do is kill him. – Heinlein

Response:

I have a 2500 gallon pond, 3 months old, with a Cal 1200 pump.  It just doesn’t do the job and I want to upgrade it to make my waterfall more substantial.  The pump I choose needs to have an inline connection for the in-pond filter (yes, it’s crummy but it was not my design!).  I want something that is cheap to run and, yes, cheap to buy.  I was considering the Cal 2700 but would appreciate any advice or recommendations. Thanks, Gary

Response:

Hi Gary, I am not familiar with Cal pumps since I was advised years ago to stay away from them. I used Little Giant pumps in the past and found that I never had clear water. If water quality and clear water is your goal you should considered using an outside pump and filter system. There will be people on this NG that will disagree but this is my opinion having used both. Outside filters are allot easier to maintain and outside pumps are really cheap to run 24/7. You may be able to pick up a used pump real cheap. see my filter setup at, good luck. http://sites.netscape.net/guppyusa/homepage – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a 2500 gallon pond, 3 months old, with a Cal 1200 pump.  It just doesn’t do the job and I want to upgrade it to make my waterfall more substantial.  The pump I choose needs to have an inline connection for the in-pond filter (yes, it’s crummy but it was not my design!).  I want something that is cheap to run and, yes, cheap to buy.  I was considering the Cal 2700 but would appreciate any advice or recommendations. Thanks, Gary

Response:

I was considering the Cal 2700 but would appreciate any advice or recommendations.

Cal S2700 draws 3.8 amps at 2680 gph at 1 foot head, and costs $280. http://www.calpump.com/prod03.htm Sequence 1000 K3H1.111 draws 1.7 amps at 2590 gph at 4.4 foot head, and costs $375. http://members.aol.com/mdmpumps/pumpspecs.html Operating costs at average US electrical rates ($0.086/ kwh) are $344 and $154 per year for full time use, respectively.  (Of course, the waterfall doesn’t have to be run full time; a smaller pump would suffice for filtration and aeration.) This is just an example to illustrate that efficiency is more important than purchase price.  In this case, the more expensive pump pays for itself in 6 months operation, and may last longer as well.  There are many other brands besides these two. – Rod

Response:

– Hi Gary., I would like to get in on this pump debate. I  do not think it is fair to say one specific pump is better than another one. The answer to your question I think is to do your research on pumps before buying one. The pumps can be divided into at least three groups. Submersible (sealed), submersible (magnetic drive) and in line such as a pool pump. The magnetic drive is very inexpensive on power consumption  but the trade off is a much lower head or less gallons delivered at higher heights. On the plus side the magnetic driven pump has replaceable  parts that the sealed submersible doesn’t have. The in line pump sitting up out of the pond has many advantages that submersible pumps do not have. Some of the options they offer are , offering the ability to draw water off of the bottom of the pond via a bottom drain, definitely more gallonage per hour at very low power consumption.,as low as .88 amps for 1200 gallons per hour.The thing you want to look at first is how much water do you have to move? A small waterfall for example requires 50-60 gallons for every 1 inch wide. so for a waterfall 6 inches wide you would require 300 gallons per hour. If your pond is under 1000 gallons and you have a small filter sitting out of the pond as part of your watercourse you can check the magnetically driven pumps and they will have a chart describing the gallons pumped at each foot of rise.I think you will find that if you can incorporate a submerged pump that in time you will | Roger Pinette | Ponds Beautiful    (604) 534-9133 | http://www.pondsbeautiful.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Gary, I am not familiar with Cal pumps since I was advised years ago to stay away from them. I used Little Giant pumps in the past and found that I never had clear water. If water quality and clear water is your goal you should considered using an outside pump and filter system. There will be people on this NG that will disagree but this is my opinion having used both. Outside filters are allot easier to maintain and outside pumps are really cheap to run 24/7. You may be able to pick up a used pump real cheap. see my filter setup at, good luck. http://sites.netscape.net/guppyusa/homepage I have a 2500 gallon pond, 3 months old, with a Cal 1200 pump.  It just doesn’t do the job and I want to upgrade it to make my waterfall more substantial.  The pump I choose needs to have an inline connection for the in-pond filter (yes, it’s crummy but it was not my design!).  I want something that is cheap to run and, yes, cheap to buy.  I was considering the Cal 2700 but would appreciate any advice or recommendations. Thanks, Gary

Response:

        Thanks Rogeer for a lot of good info. I’d like to mention for discussion my experience with pumps so far. In our two ponds that we got when we moved, each had a Little Giant submersible pump. Both eventually started leaking coolant and had to be replaced.         They lasted only about 13 months (good work, as they are guaranteed for only a year!). One more lasted about the same. So, I replaced it with an above-ground pool pump with skimmer and filter, and that has done yeoman service, plugging away for two years now with no problem. It cost only a little more than the Little Giant even with skimmer and filter.         The dealers I talked with all said those submersible pumps are not designed to work full time without going belly up after about a year.         Any others had similar experiences?  |  NOTE: If you want to e-mail a reply, please strip |  |  off the letters "OOPS" from my address.           |  |              (Spam preventer)                      | – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text — Hi Gary., I would like to get in on this pump debate. I  do not think it is fair to say one specific pump is better than another one. The answer to your question I think is to do your research on pumps before buying one. The pumps can be divided into at least three groups. Submersible (sealed), submersible (magnetic drive) and in line such as a pool pump. The magnetic drive is very inexpensive on power consumption  but the trade off is a much lower head or less gallons delivered at higher heights. On the plus side the magnetic driven pump has replaceable  parts that the sealed submersible doesn’t have. The in line pump sitting up out of the pond has many advantages that submersible pumps do not have. Some of the options they offer are , offering the ability to draw water off of the bottom of the pond via a bottom drain, definitely more gallonage per hour at very low power consumption.,as low as .88 amps for 1200 gallons per hour.The thing you want to look at first is how much water do you have to move? A small waterfall for example requires 50-60 gallons for every 1 inch wide. so for a waterfall 6 inches wide you would require 300 gallons per hour. If your pond is under 1000 gallons and you have a small filter sitting out of the pond as part of your watercourse you can check the magnetically driven pumps and they will have a chart describing the gallons pumped at each foot of rise.I think you will find that if you can incorporate a submerged pump that in time you will | Roger Pinette | Ponds Beautiful    (604) 534-9133 | http://www.pondsbeautiful.com Hi Gary, I am not familiar with Cal pumps since I was advised years ago to stay away from them. I used Little Giant pumps in the past and found that I never had clear water. If water quality and clear water is your goal you should considered using an outside pump and filter system. There will be people on this NG that will disagree but this is my opinion having used both. Outside filters are allot easier to maintain and outside pumps are really cheap to run 24/7. You may be able to pick up a used pump real cheap. see my filter setup at, good luck. http://sites.netscape.net/guppyusa/homepage I have a 2500 gallon pond, 3 months old, with a Cal 1200 pump.  It just doesn’t do the job and I want to upgrade it to make my waterfall more substantial.  The pump I choose needs to have an inline connection for the in-pond filter (yes, it’s crummy but it was not my design!).  I want something that is cheap to run and, yes, cheap to buy.  I was considering the Cal 2700 but would appreciate any advice or recommendations. Thanks, Gary

–

Response:

— Hi Gary., I would like to get in on this pump debate. I  do not think it is fair to say one specific pump is better than another one. The answer to your question I think is to do your research on pumps before buying one. The pumps can be divided into at least three groups. Submersible (sealed), submersible (magnetic drive) and in line such as a pool pump. The magnetic drive is very inexpensive on power consumption  but the trade off is a much lower head or less gallons delivered at higher heights. On the plus side the magnetic driven pump has replaceable  parts that the sealed submersible doesn’t have. The in line pump sitting up out of the pond has many advantages that submersible pumps do not have. Some of the options they offer are , offering the ability to draw water off of the bottom of the pond via a bottom drain,

Depending on how the filter is designed, all pumps mentioned above can draw water off the bottom. I have a Beckett submersible in a gravity-fed filter using the Tetra vacuum bottom drain. ~ jan See my ponds thru the seasons: http://jjspond.home.att.net/         ~Keep ‘em Wet!~      Tri-Cities WA    Zone 7a          To e-mail see website – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -definitely more gallonage per hour at very low power consumption.,as low as .88 amps for 1200 gallons per hour.The thing you want to look at first is how much water do you have to move? A small waterfall for example requires 50-60 gallons for every 1 inch wide. so for a waterfall 6 inches wide you would require 300 gallons per hour. If your pond is under 1000 gallons and you have a small filter sitting out of the pond as part of your watercourse you can check the magnetically driven pumps and they will have a chart describing the gallons pumped at each foot of rise.I think you will find that if you can incorporate a submerged pump that in time you will | Roger Pinette | Ponds Beautiful    (604) 534-9133 | http://www.pondsbeautiful.com Hi Gary, I am not familiar with Cal pumps since I was advised years ago to stay away from them. I used Little Giant pumps in the past and found that I never had clear water. If water quality and clear water is your goal you should considered using an outside pump and filter system. There will be people on this NG that will disagree but this is my opinion having used both. Outside filters are allot easier to maintain and outside pumps are really cheap to run 24/7. You may be able to pick up a used pump real cheap. see my filter setup at, good luck. http://sites.netscape.net/guppyusa/homepage I have a 2500 gallon pond, 3 months old, with a Cal 1200 pump.  It just doesn’t do the job and I want to upgrade it to make my waterfall more substantial.  The pump I choose needs to have an inline connection for the in-pond filter (yes, it’s crummy but it was not my design!).  I want something that is cheap to run and, yes, cheap to buy.  I was considering the Cal 2700 but would appreciate any advice or recommendations. Thanks, Gary

Response:

Hi Rennie, Welcome Back…  It’s great to have you back here where you belong. Between that awful Flu  and your server you’ve been absent for some time ….  Glad your doctors and your server got it all together … A hearty Welcome to Roger!    You know what that means Roger?    Bottom line:     You are Porg!!  You will be assimilated.  All efforts to become disentangled will be useless  (or something like that ;o) Nedra / Missouri / Zone 6 —  Nedra’s Ponds: www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/4836/

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — Hi Gary., I would like to get in on this pump debate. I  do not think it is fair to say one specific pump is better than another one. The answer to your question I think is to do your research on pumps before buying one. The pumps can be divided into at least three groups. Submersible (sealed), submersible (magnetic drive) and in line such as a pool pump. The magnetic drive is very inexpensive on power consumption  but the trade off is a much lower head or less gallons delivered at higher heights. On the plus side the magnetic driven pump has replaceable  parts that the sealed submersible doesn’t have. The in line pump sitting up out of the pond has many advantages that submersible pumps do not have. Some of the options they offer are , offering the ability to draw water off of the bottom of the pond via a bottom drain, definitely more gallonage per hour at very low power consumption.,as low as .88 amps for 1200 gallons per hour.The thing you want to look at first is how much water do you have to move? A small waterfall for example requires 50-60 gallons for every 1 inch wide. so for a waterfall 6 inches wide you would require 300 gallons per hour. If your pond is under 1000 gallons and you have a small filter sitting out of the pond as part of your watercourse you can check the magnetically driven pumps and they will have a chart describing the gallons pumped at each foot of rise.I think you will find that if you can incorporate a submerged pump that in time you will | Roger Pinette | Ponds Beautiful    (604) 534-9133 | http://www.pondsbeautiful.com Roger, welcome to the newsgroup. I’m sure all of us in rec.ponds will benefit from your many years of watergardening and Koi expertise… To the regulars in the NG, this is the gentleman that dropped everything he was doing the day of the vandalism to my pond and rushed out to be of assistance trying to get everything working again. Thank you again Roger for all your help….. Rennie in Abbotsford PS…ISP finally finished system re-build and put rec.ponds back on newsserver…nice to be back……

Response:

PS…ISP finally finished system re-build and put rec.ponds back on newsserver…nice to be back……

Rennie, welcome back, almost had to send the lily fairies after you. Unfortunately many seem to be AWOL from rec.ponds. Time to hit the books & magazines and get more pond related topics going. ;o) ~ jan

Response:

My 300 GPH Little Giant lasted 4 years. I don’t remember the model number but it cost about $60 at Home Depot. I replaced it with the same model and expect to get 4 years from the new one also, It runs 24/7 year round. —      Larry Wasserman     Baltimore, Maryland

Response:

A small waterfall for example requires 50-60 gallons for every 1 inch wide. so for a waterfall 6 inches wide you would require 300 gallons per hour.

That seems quite low… don’t most sources recommend about 100 gph per inch of sill width? – Rod

Response:

On the plus side the magnetic driven pump has replaceable  parts that the sealed submersible doesn’t have.

Are we talking about the same things here?  Most people saying ‘magnetic driven’ are talking strictly about Danner’s Supreme Mag-Drive.  iirc, that’s an epoxy sealed unit that has about 3 replaceable parts.  My ’sealed’ submersible has dozens of replacable parts – including the seals. — Derek (www.netcom.ca/~dbrought/pond) rec.ponds FAQ  http://w3.one.net/~rzutt/faq.html You can’t jail a free man, the best you can do is kill him. – Heinlein

Response:

I have a 2500 gallon pond, 3 months old, with a Cal 1200 pump.  It just doesn’t do the job and I want to upgrade it to make my waterfall more substantial.  The pump I choose needs to have an inline connection for the in-pond filter (yes, it’s crummy but it was not my design!).  I want something that is cheap to run and, yes, cheap to buy.  I was considering the Cal 2700 but would appreciate any advice or recommendations. Thanks, Gary

Response:

Hi Gary, I am not familiar with Cal pumps since I was advised years ago to stay away from them. I used Little Giant pumps in the past and found that I never had clear water. If water quality and clear water is your goal you should considered using an outside pump and filter system. There will be people on this NG that will disagree but this is my opinion having used both. Outside filters are allot easier to maintain and outside pumps are really cheap to run 24/7. You may be able to pick up a used pump real cheap. see my filter setup at, good luck. http://sites.netscape.net/guppyusa/homepage – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a 2500 gallon pond, 3 months old, with a Cal 1200 pump.  It just doesn’t do the job and I want to upgrade it to make my waterfall more substantial.  The pump I choose needs to have an inline connection for the in-pond filter (yes, it’s crummy but it was not my design!).  I want something that is cheap to run and, yes, cheap to buy.  I was considering the Cal 2700 but would appreciate any advice or recommendations. Thanks, Gary

Response:

I was considering the Cal 2700 but would appreciate any advice or recommendations.

Cal S2700 draws 3.8 amps at 2680 gph at 1 foot head, and costs $280. http://www.calpump.com/prod03.htm Sequence 1000 K3H1.111 draws 1.7 amps at 2590 gph at 4.4 foot head, and costs $375. http://members.aol.com/mdmpumps/pumpspecs.html Operating costs at average US electrical rates ($0.086/ kwh) are $344 and $154 per year for full time use, respectively.  (Of course, the waterfall doesn’t have to be run full time; a smaller pump would suffice for filtration and aeration.) This is just an example to illustrate that efficiency is more important than purchase price.  In this case, the more expensive pump pays for itself in 6 months operation, and may last longer as well.  There are many other brands besides these two. – Rod

Response:

– Hi Gary., I would like to get in on this pump debate. I  do not think it is fair to say one specific pump is better than another one. The answer to your question I think is to do your research on pumps before buying one. The pumps can be divided into at least three groups. Submersible (sealed), submersible (magnetic drive) and in line such as a pool pump. The magnetic drive is very inexpensive on power consumption  but the trade off is a much lower head or less gallons delivered at higher heights. On the plus side the magnetic driven pump has replaceable  parts that the sealed submersible doesn’t have. The in line pump sitting up out of the pond has many advantages that submersible pumps do not have. Some of the options they offer are , offering the ability to draw water off of the bottom of the pond via a bottom drain, definitely more gallonage per hour at very low power consumption.,as low as .88 amps for 1200 gallons per hour.The thing you want to look at first is how much water do you have to move? A small waterfall for example requires 50-60 gallons for every 1 inch wide. so for a waterfall 6 inches wide you would require 300 gallons per hour. If your pond is under 1000 gallons and you have a small filter sitting out of the pond as part of your watercourse you can check the magnetically driven pumps and they will have a chart describing the gallons pumped at each foot of rise.I think you will find that if you can incorporate a submerged pump that in time you will | Roger Pinette | Ponds Beautiful    (604) 534-9133 | http://www.pondsbeautiful.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Gary, I am not familiar with Cal pumps since I was advised years ago to stay away from them. I used Little Giant pumps in the past and found that I never had clear water. If water quality and clear water is your goal you should considered using an outside pump and filter system. There will be people on this NG that will disagree but this is my opinion having used both. Outside filters are allot easier to maintain and outside pumps are really cheap to run 24/7. You may be able to pick up a used pump real cheap. see my filter setup at, good luck. http://sites.netscape.net/guppyusa/homepage I have a 2500 gallon pond, 3 months old, with a Cal 1200 pump.  It just doesn’t do the job and I want to upgrade it to make my waterfall more substantial.  The pump I choose needs to have an inline connection for the in-pond filter (yes, it’s crummy but it was not my design!).  I want something that is cheap to run and, yes, cheap to buy.  I was considering the Cal 2700 but would appreciate any advice or recommendations. Thanks, Gary

Response:

        Thanks Rogeer for a lot of good info. I’d like to mention for discussion my experience with pumps so far. In our two ponds that we got when we moved, each had a Little Giant submersible pump. Both eventually started leaking coolant and had to be replaced.         They lasted only about 13 months (good work, as they are guaranteed for only a year!). One more lasted about the same. So, I replaced it with an above-ground pool pump with skimmer and filter, and that has done yeoman service, plugging away for two years now with no problem. It cost only a little more than the Little Giant even with skimmer and filter.         The dealers I talked with all said those submersible pumps are not designed to work full time without going belly up after about a year.         Any others had similar experiences?  |  NOTE: If you want to e-mail a reply, please strip |  |  off the letters "OOPS" from my address.           |  |              (Spam preventer)                      | – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text — Hi Gary., I would like to get in on this pump debate. I  do not think it is fair to say one specific pump is better than another one. The answer to your question I think is to do your research on pumps before buying one. The pumps can be divided into at least three groups. Submersible (sealed), submersible (magnetic drive) and in line such as a pool pump. The magnetic drive is very inexpensive on power consumption  but the trade off is a much lower head or less gallons delivered at higher heights. On the plus side the magnetic driven pump has replaceable  parts that the sealed submersible doesn’t have. The in line pump sitting up out of the pond has many advantages that submersible pumps do not have. Some of the options they offer are , offering the ability to draw water off of the bottom of the pond via a bottom drain, definitely more gallonage per hour at very low power consumption.,as low as .88 amps for 1200 gallons per hour.The thing you want to look at first is how much water do you have to move? A small waterfall for example requires 50-60 gallons for every 1 inch wide. so for a waterfall 6 inches wide you would require 300 gallons per hour. If your pond is under 1000 gallons and you have a small filter sitting out of the pond as part of your watercourse you can check the magnetically driven pumps and they will have a chart describing the gallons pumped at each foot of rise.I think you will find that if you can incorporate a submerged pump that in time you will | Roger Pinette | Ponds Beautiful    (604) 534-9133 | http://www.pondsbeautiful.com Hi Gary, I am not familiar with Cal pumps since I was advised years ago to stay away from them. I used Little Giant pumps in the past and found that I never had clear water. If water quality and clear water is your goal you should considered using an outside pump and filter system. There will be people on this NG that will disagree but this is my opinion having used both. Outside filters are allot easier to maintain and outside pumps are really cheap to run 24/7. You may be able to pick up a used pump real cheap. see my filter setup at, good luck. http://sites.netscape.net/guppyusa/homepage I have a 2500 gallon pond, 3 months old, with a Cal 1200 pump.  It just doesn’t do the job and I want to upgrade it to make my waterfall more substantial.  The pump I choose needs to have an inline connection for the in-pond filter (yes, it’s crummy but it was not my design!).  I want something that is cheap to run and, yes, cheap to buy.  I was considering the Cal 2700 but would appreciate any advice or recommendations. Thanks, Gary

–

Response:

— Hi Gary., I would like to get in on this pump debate. I  do not think it is fair to say one specific pump is better than another one. The answer to your question I think is to do your research on pumps before buying one. The pumps can be divided into at least three groups. Submersible (sealed), submersible (magnetic drive) and in line such as a pool pump. The magnetic drive is very inexpensive on power consumption  but the trade off is a much lower head or less gallons delivered at higher heights. On the plus side the magnetic driven pump has replaceable  parts that the sealed submersible doesn’t have. The in line pump sitting up out of the pond has many advantages that submersible pumps do not have. Some of the options they offer are , offering the ability to draw water off of the bottom of the pond via a bottom drain,

Depending on how the filter is designed, all pumps mentioned above can draw water off the bottom. I have a Beckett submersible in a gravity-fed filter using the Tetra vacuum bottom drain. ~ jan See my ponds thru the seasons: http://jjspond.home.att.net/         ~Keep ‘em Wet!~      Tri-Cities WA    Zone 7a          To e-mail see website – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -definitely more gallonage per hour at very low power consumption.,as low as .88 amps for 1200 gallons per hour.The thing you want to look at first is how much water do you have to move? A small waterfall for example requires 50-60 gallons for every 1 inch wide. so for a waterfall 6 inches wide you would require 300 gallons per hour. If your pond is under 1000 gallons and you have a small filter sitting out of the pond as part of your watercourse you can check the magnetically driven pumps and they will have a chart describing the gallons pumped at each foot of rise.I think you will find that if you can incorporate a submerged pump that in time you will | Roger Pinette | Ponds Beautiful    (604) 534-9133 | http://www.pondsbeautiful.com Hi Gary, I am not familiar with Cal pumps since I was advised years ago to stay away from them. I used Little Giant pumps in the past and found that I never had clear water. If water quality and clear water is your goal you should considered using an outside pump and filter system. There will be people on this NG that will disagree but this is my opinion having used both. Outside filters are allot easier to maintain and outside pumps are really cheap to run 24/7. You may be able to pick up a used pump real cheap. see my filter setup at, good luck. http://sites.netscape.net/guppyusa/homepage I have a 2500 gallon pond, 3 months old, with a Cal 1200 pump.  It just doesn’t do the job and I want to upgrade it to make my waterfall more substantial.  The pump I choose needs to have an inline connection for the in-pond filter (yes, it’s crummy but it was not my design!).  I want something that is cheap to run and, yes, cheap to buy.  I was considering the Cal 2700 but would appreciate any advice or recommendations. Thanks, Gary

Response:

Hi Rennie, Welcome Back…  It’s great to have you back here where you belong. Between that awful Flu  and your server you’ve been absent for some time ….  Glad your doctors and your server got it all together … A hearty Welcome to Roger!    You know what that means Roger?    Bottom line:     You are Porg!!  You will be assimilated.  All efforts to become disentangled will be useless  (or something like that ;o) Nedra / Missouri / Zone 6 —  Nedra’s Ponds: www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/4836/

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — Hi Gary., I would like to get in on this pump debate. I  do not think it is fair to say one specific pump is better than another one. The answer to your question I think is to do your research on pumps before buying one. The pumps can be divided into at least three groups. Submersible (sealed), submersible (magnetic drive) and in line such as a pool pump. The magnetic drive is very inexpensive on power consumption  but the trade off is a much lower head or less gallons delivered at higher heights. On the plus side the magnetic driven pump has replaceable  parts that the sealed submersible doesn’t have. The in line pump sitting up out of the pond has many advantages that submersible pumps do not have. Some of the options they offer are , offering the ability to draw water off of the bottom of the pond via a bottom drain, definitely more gallonage per hour at very low power consumption.,as low as .88 amps for 1200 gallons per hour.The thing you want to look at first is how much water do you have to move? A small waterfall for example requires 50-60 gallons for every 1 inch wide. so for a waterfall 6 inches wide you would require 300 gallons per hour. If your pond is under 1000 gallons and you have a small filter sitting out of the pond as part of your watercourse you can check the magnetically driven pumps and they will have a chart describing the gallons pumped at each foot of rise.I think you will find that if you can incorporate a submerged pump that in time you will | Roger Pinette | Ponds Beautiful    (604) 534-9133 | http://www.pondsbeautiful.com Roger, welcome to the newsgroup. I’m sure all of us in rec.ponds will benefit from your many years of watergardening and Koi expertise… To the regulars in the NG, this is the gentleman that dropped everything he was doing the day of the vandalism to my pond and rushed out to be of assistance trying to get everything working again. Thank you again Roger for all your help….. Rennie in Abbotsford PS…ISP finally finished system re-build and put rec.ponds back on newsserver…nice to be back……

Response:

PS…ISP finally finished system re-build and put rec.ponds back on newsserver…nice to be back……

Rennie, welcome back, almost had to send the lily fairies after you. Unfortunately many seem to be AWOL from rec.ponds. Time to hit the books & magazines and get more pond related topics going. ;o) ~ jan

Response:

My 300 GPH Little Giant lasted 4 years. I don’t remember the model number but it cost about $60 at Home Depot. I replaced it with the same model and expect to get 4 years from the new one also, It runs 24/7 year round. —      Larry Wasserman     Baltimore, Maryland

Response:

A small waterfall for example requires 50-60 gallons for every 1 inch wide. so for a waterfall 6 inches wide you would require 300 gallons per hour.

That seems quite low… don’t most sources recommend about 100 gph per inch of sill width? – Rod

Response:

On the plus side the magnetic driven pump has replaceable  parts that the sealed submersible doesn’t have.

Are we talking about the same things here?  Most people saying ‘magnetic driven’ are talking strictly about Danner’s Supreme Mag-Drive.  iirc, that’s an epoxy sealed unit that has about 3 replaceable parts.  My ’sealed’ submersible has dozens of replacable parts – including the seals. — Derek (www.netcom.ca/~dbrought/pond) rec.ponds FAQ  http://w3.one.net/~rzutt/faq.html You can’t jail a free man, the best you can do is kill him. – Heinlein

Response:

Question:

Hi allemaal; Ik ben toch nog thuis dit weekend, en dat boven alle verwachtingen. Het leek er eerst niet erg op en al helemaal niet toen ik vanmiddag een PA aanval kreeg bij m’n Pdoc op de kamer.  En die was zo ingemeen, het kwam totaal uit het niets. Ik heb Philip nog gebeld deze week en heb ook verteld hoe het er nu voor staat, hij zal jullie het wel laten weten. Volgende week gaat m’n Pdoc de Efexor verhogen, dus het is nog afwachten wat het gaat worden. Ik hoop dat ik wat minder aan PA aanvallen krijg, het maakt je zo moe. En ik ken dan ook beginnen met de CBT, en dat is nu nog niet mogelijk. IK ga nog te vaak op de run, en ik zie het nog niet erg zitten maar misscien komt dat nog. Ik weet wel dat ik het wil proberen, en vooral als jullie achter mij blijven staan. Ik houd van jullie mijn asap family. Liefs Diana.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi allemaal; Ik ben toch nog thuis dit weekend, en dat boven alle verwachtingen. Het leek er eerst niet erg op en al helemaal niet toen ik vanmiddag een PA aanval kreeg bij m’n Pdoc op de kamer.  En die was zo ingemeen, het kwam totaal uit het niets. Ik heb Philip nog gebeld deze week en heb ook verteld hoe het er nu voor staat, hij zal jullie het wel laten weten. Volgende week gaat m’n Pdoc de Efexor verhogen, dus het is nog afwachten wat het gaat worden. Ik hoop dat ik wat minder aan PA aanvallen krijg, het maakt je zo moe. En ik ken dan ook beginnen met de CBT, en dat is nu nog niet mogelijk. IK ga nog te vaak op de run, en ik zie het nog niet erg zitten maar misscien komt dat nog. Ik weet wel dat ik het wil proberen, en vooral als jullie achter mij blijven staan. Ik houd van jullie mijn asap family. Liefs Diana.

TRANSLATION: Hi all; I am at home for the weekend after all, beyond all expectations. I didn’t think I could do it, especially when this afternoon I got a PA in my pdoc’s office. It was a particularly nasty one, completely out of the blue. I called Philip earlier this week and told him how things stand. He will let you know. (Ha! Did that already! PP) Next week the doc will raise the Effexor dose so I have to wait what will happen. I hope I will have fewer PA’s, they make me so tired. I can then start CBT too which is not yet possible now. I still run away too often and I am not feeling well at all but perhaps I will later. I know that I want to try, especially if you are behind me. I love you, my ASAP family! Diana

Response:

[snipped]  I know that I want to try, especially if you are behind me. Yes we are behind you Diana. You sound better. Thanks Philip for translating, – Kinder

Response:

Hi, Diana, It is great to hear from you.  You sound optimistic!  We are here for you and thinking of you all the time…  I am sending you strength to get through this rough time. smiles, Elise

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi allemaal; Ik ben toch nog thuis dit weekend, en dat boven alle verwachtingen. Het leek er eerst niet erg op en al helemaal niet toen ik vanmiddag een PA aanval kreeg bij m’n Pdoc op de kamer.  En die was zo ingemeen, het kwam totaal uit het niets. Ik heb Philip nog gebeld deze week en heb ook verteld hoe het er nu voor staat, hij zal jullie het wel laten weten. Volgende week gaat m’n Pdoc de Efexor verhogen, dus het is nog afwachten wat het gaat worden. Ik hoop dat ik wat minder aan PA aanvallen krijg, het maakt je zo moe. En ik ken dan ook beginnen met de CBT, en dat is nu nog niet mogelijk. IK ga nog te vaak op de run, en ik zie het nog niet erg zitten maar misscien komt dat nog. Ik weet wel dat ik het wil proberen, en vooral als jullie achter mij blijven staan. Ik houd van jullie mijn asap family. Liefs Diana.

Response:

Hi Diana- Just wanted you to know I was at temple tonight and i thought of you when we said a healing prayer. Be well. les. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Hi allemaal; Ik ben toch nog thuis dit weekend, en dat boven alle verwachtingen. Het leek er eerst niet erg op en al helemaal niet toen ik vanmiddag een PA aanval kreeg bij m’n Pdoc op de kamer. En die was zo ingemeen, het kwam totaal uit het niets. Ik heb Philip nog gebeld deze week en heb ook verteld hoe het er nu voor staat, hij zal jullie het wel laten weten. Volgende week gaat m’n Pdoc de Efexor verhogen, dus het is nog afwachten wat het gaat worden. Ik hoop dat ik wat minder aan PA aanvallen krijg, het maakt je zo moe. En ik ken dan ook beginnen met de CBT, en dat is nu nog niet mogelijk. IK ga nog te vaak op de run, en ik zie het nog niet erg zitten maar misscien komt dat nog. Ik weet wel dat ik het wil proberen, en vooral als jullie achter mij blijven staan. Ik houd van jullie mijn asap family. Liefs Diana.

Response:

Diana wrote……. Next week the doc will raise the Effexor dose so I have to wait what will happen. I hope I will have fewer PA’s, they make me so tired. I can then start CBT too which is not yet possible now. I still run away too often and I am not feeling well at all but perhaps I will later. I know that I want to try, especially if you are behind me.

Dear Diana, It is always wonderful to hear from you Good luck with the Effexor and remember that ASAP will always be behind you dear!~ {{{{{Diana}}}}} Jackie

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi allemaal; Ik ben toch nog thuis dit weekend, en dat boven alle verwachtingen. Het leek er eerst niet erg op en al helemaal niet toen ik vanmiddag een PA aanval kreeg bij m’n Pdoc op de kamer.  En die was zo ingemeen, het kwam totaal uit het niets. Ik heb Philip nog gebeld deze week en heb ook verteld hoe het er nu voor staat, hij zal jullie het wel laten weten. Volgende week gaat m’n Pdoc de Efexor verhogen, dus het is nog afwachten wat het gaat worden. Ik hoop dat ik wat minder aan PA aanvallen krijg, het maakt je zo moe. En ik ken dan ook beginnen met de CBT, en dat is nu nog niet mogelijk. IK ga nog te vaak op de run, en ik zie het nog niet erg zitten maar misscien komt dat nog. Ik weet wel dat ik het wil proberen, en vooral als jullie achter mij blijven staan. Ik houd van jullie mijn asap family. Liefs Diana.

Dag dag dag Lieve Diana )))))))) Wat fijn dat je toch even naar huis mocht ! Ik hoop toch zo voor je,dat het vlug wat beter gaat. Je ‘klinkt’ een beetje beter. Wij hier staan altijd achter je !!! Zo dan. Je bent heel moedig. Veel grote kussen van Anna

Response:

Hi Diana, Have no doubt…we are all behind you. I hope the  effexor works out for you. {{{{{{ Diana }}}}}} take care Pete – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Hi all; I am at home for the weekend after all, beyond all expectations. I didn’t think I could do it, especially when this afternoon I got a PA in my pdoc’s office. It was a particularly nasty one, completely out of the blue. I called Philip earlier this week and told him how things stand. He will let you know. (Ha! Did that already! PP) Next week the doc will raise the Effexor dose so I have to wait what will happen. I hope I will have fewer PA’s, they make me so tired. I can then start CBT too which is not yet possible now. I still run away too often and I am not feeling well at all but perhaps I will later. I know that I want to try, especially if you are behind me. I love you, my ASAP family! Diana

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi all; I am at home for the weekend after all, beyond all expectations. I didn’t think I could do it, especially when this afternoon I got a PA in my pdoc’s office. It was a particularly nasty one, completely out of the blue. I called Philip earlier this week and told him how things stand. He will let you know. (Ha! Did that already! PP) Next week the doc will raise the Effexor dose so I have to wait what will happen. I hope I will have fewer PA’s, they make me so tired. I can then start CBT too which is not yet possible now. I still run away too often and I am not feeling well at all but perhaps I will later. I know that I want to try, especially if you are behind me. I love you, my ASAP family! Diana

So glad to hear from you, Diana.  I will keep praying that the Effexor will work for you, and that you will feel better soon.  I think of you often. — Take care, Liz To everything there is a season …and to every season, a special beauty.

Response:

Hoi Diana, Wat fijn dat je toch nog thuis bent gekomen dit weekend en ook nog even van je laat horen. Ik hoop ook dat het echt gauw beter met je gaat. Ook ik vind dat je wat beter klinkt. Ik ga voor je duimen dat het snel beter gaat en dat je gauw kan beginnen met de CBT. Aan jouw uithoudingsvermogen zal het in elk geval niet liggen. Blijf volhouden en natuurlijk blijf ook ik achter je staan. Ik wens je alle sterkte doe die je nu zo hard nodig hebt. Liefs, Francis althijs schreef: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi allemaal; Ik ben toch nog thuis dit weekend, en dat boven alle verwachtingen. Het leek er eerst niet erg op en al helemaal niet toen ik vanmiddag een PA aanval kreeg bij m’n Pdoc op de kamer.  En die was zo ingemeen, het kwam totaal uit het niets. Ik heb Philip nog gebeld deze week en heb ook verteld hoe het er nu voor staat, hij zal jullie het wel laten weten. Volgende week gaat m’n Pdoc de Efexor verhogen, dus het is nog afwachten wat het gaat worden. Ik hoop dat ik wat minder aan PA aanvallen krijg, het maakt je zo moe. En ik ken dan ook beginnen met de CBT, en dat is nu nog niet mogelijk. IK ga nog te vaak op de run, en ik zie het nog niet erg zitten maar misscien komt dat nog. Ik weet wel dat ik het wil proberen, en vooral als jullie achter mij blijven staan. Ik houd van jullie mijn asap family. Liefs Diana.

Response:

Diana,     You really do seem much better! We are all behind you and wishing you well. We care, and we do not forget you. Boyd

: :

: : Hi allemaal; : : Ik ben toch nog thuis dit weekend, en dat boven alle verwachtingen. : Het leek er eerst niet erg op en al helemaal niet toen ik vanmiddag een PA : aanval : kreeg bij m’n Pdoc op de kamer. :  En die was zo ingemeen, het kwam totaal uit het niets. : Ik heb Philip nog gebeld deze week en heb ook verteld hoe het er nu voor : staat, : hij zal jullie het wel laten weten. : Volgende week gaat m’n Pdoc de Efexor verhogen, dus het is nog afwachten wat : het gaat worden. Ik hoop dat ik wat minder aan PA aanvallen krijg, het maakt : je zo moe. : En ik ken dan ook beginnen met de CBT, en dat is nu nog niet mogelijk. : IK ga nog te vaak op de run, en ik zie het nog niet erg zitten maar misscien : komt dat nog. : Ik weet wel dat ik het wil proberen, en vooral als jullie achter mij blijven : staan. : : Ik houd van jullie mijn asap family. : : Liefs Diana. : : TRANSLATION: : : Hi all; : I am at home for the weekend after all, beyond all expectations. : I didn’t think I could do it, especially when this afternoon I got a PA in my : pdoc’s office. It was a particularly nasty one, completely out of the blue. : I called Philip earlier this week and told him how things stand. He will let you : know. : (Ha! Did that already! PP) : Next week the doc will raise the Effexor dose so I have to wait what will : happen. I hope I will have fewer PA’s, they make me so tired. : I can then start CBT too which is not yet possible now. : I still run away too often and I am not feeling well at all but perhaps I will : later. : I know that I want to try, especially if you are behind me. : : I love you, my ASAP family! : : Diana :

Response:

Thanks Phillip :  ) Diana, I’m glad to hear the you are home for the weekend. Are you able to sleep at night now ? I know when I was feeling very out of control and having panic attacks every day that I was able to relax by taking Xanax. Next I went to see a psychiatrist for the first time and he prescribed Zoloft and Clonazepam.  I’m still taking these two meds after 5 years and they do prevent me from having bad panic attacks. I always believed I would get better and I think that one’s attitude makes a big difference for any type of sickness. Everyone is cheering you on at ASAP and we want you to get better. You will get to the beach with Phillip this Spring :  ) Take care, Tony

| |

| | Hi allemaal; | | Ik ben toch nog thuis dit weekend, en dat boven alle verwachtingen. | Het leek er eerst niet erg op en al helemaal niet toen ik vanmiddag een PA | aanval | kreeg bij m’n Pdoc op de kamer. |  En die was zo ingemeen, het kwam totaal uit het niets. | Ik heb Philip nog gebeld deze week en heb ook verteld hoe het er nu voor | staat, | hij zal jullie het wel laten weten. | Volgende week gaat m’n Pdoc de Efexor verhogen, dus het is nog afwachten wat | het gaat worden. Ik hoop dat ik wat minder aan PA aanvallen krijg, het maakt | je zo moe. | En ik ken dan ook beginnen met de CBT, en dat is nu nog niet mogelijk. | IK ga nog te vaak op de run, en ik zie het nog niet erg zitten maar misscien | komt dat nog. | Ik weet wel dat ik het wil proberen, en vooral als jullie achter mij blijven | staan. | | Ik houd van jullie mijn asap family. | | Liefs Diana. | | TRANSLATION: | | Hi all; | I am at home for the weekend after all, beyond all expectations. | I didn’t think I could do it, especially when this afternoon I got a PA in my | pdoc’s office. It was a particularly nasty one, completely out of the blue. | I called Philip earlier this week and told him how things stand. He will let you | know. | (Ha! Did that already! PP) | Next week the doc will raise the Effexor dose so I have to wait what will | happen. I hope I will have fewer PA’s, they make me so tired. | I can then start CBT too which is not yet possible now. | I still run away too often and I am not feeling well at all but perhaps I will | later. | I know that I want to try, especially if you are behind me. | | I love you, my ASAP family! | | Diana | |

Response:

Question:

Richard: My psychiatrist just increased my Prozac to 30MG per day.  He’s reluctant to switch me to anything else since I had previously had a good response from Prozac.  Just be careful in increasing doses….. I was told that as doses of SSRIs increase, so does the risk of seizures.  I would assume that the doses would have to be tremendously high, but it may be worth it to have your serum levels of Prozac tested.  Finally, you may have to pay out of pocket for the test as most insurance companies still consider testing serum levels of Prozac to be experimental.  I haven’t had my blood drawn yet, so I’ll find out if United will or will not pay. Jeff

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jeff,      Thank you. I take 3×20mg Prozac with oxycontin and dilaudid. I thought that I was not getting the same relief from depression as when I use to take only 20 mg Prozac before I was hurt. Very interesting. I hate to switch to a tri-cyclic a-d,  but I might have to. I’ll check with my doc. Thanks Peace,   Richard Sullivan

Response:

  There is a question that I need to find out from any of you (inyour experiences – or any pain mgmt. MDs out there) about what I can expectfrom the Oxycontin.  I am currently taking 20MG twice a day.  It makes thepain tolerable, but doesn’t really erase it.  Is this the best that I should expect?

Your doc could titrate your meds up til you get the relief you need.  Also, he could prescribe something for breakthru pain, such as MSIR,or  OXYir.

Response:

Richard: Thank you SO much for taking the time to write.  To add to this information that seems to be little discussed, my Psychiatrist told me about some of the downsides to pain meds: ravenous appetite decreased libido dry mucus membranes (from the anticholinergic <sp? effects) personality change (anywhere from mild to severe) Plus, anyone out there on any anti-depressants, particularly the SSRI (Prozac, Effexor, etc), you may want to have your doc have serum levels for all meds taken.  Evidently, Oxycontin and these SSRI meds use the SAME liver enzyme pathway (P450) for metabolism.  Depending on the individual person, you may not receive the full benefits from one of the meds as the other one is "winning" out for dominance in the bloodstream.  Also, I was cautioned NOT to take Elavil (Amytriptoline) as an adjunct for pain mgmt as Oxycodone will increase the serum levels of Elavil as much as 400%. I’m not an MD, nor a pharmacist, but I thought that I’d share this info from personal experience. Thanks again for your help! Jeff

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jeff,      I guess it depends on what is ailing us, but on my first visit to my pain clinic, the evaluating Doc told me I would always have pain. He told me I would have remissions where the pain is so low it is like there is none. Not to be a downer but as someone recently said, that’s why we are called chronic. As far as Oxycontin, I have had good luck with it 6 months as my main med. I have never found it to be much longer lasting than 4 or 5 hours, but I like the fact it is clean of additives. After being moved up to where I could take 80 mg 4/day, I still wake up with a pain " alarm clock ". Right know I am shooting for a reduction in my average daily pain. Something we don’t talk alot about is something you brought up. I have gained over 40lbs since I got hurt. One of my meds has given me a sweet tooth, and my suspicion has always been on the oxycontin. Good luck. Peace, Richard

Response:

Jeff,      Thank you. I take 3×20mg Prozac with oxycontin and dilaudid. I thought that I was not getting the same relief from depression as when I use to take only 20 mg Prozac before I was hurt. Very interesting. I hate to switch to a tri-cyclic a-d,  but I might have to. I’ll check with my doc. Thanks Peace,   Richard Sullivan

Response:

Jeff, I too was started on 20mg. Within 6 months I was taking 160 mg. every 6 to 8 hours (and even that wasn’t holding me, when the Dr. asked me  to tell him Honestly was it holding) I soon saw that in the end it came to taking the pain medicine same rate as I was taking short acting meds.I went off of oxycontin when I had to take 560mg. a day. My Doc.. believes in giving what it takes and knows  it’s not some personal vendetta towards him that my tolerance is high. For some Oxycontin works very, very well. For me I was put on 300mg of methadone a day along with 16 mg. of daludid(?) up to every 4 hours.(which is to much for me, knocks me out. (My docs say I have a system the size of a large You WILL find the right dose for yourself. Just be honest with your pain doc. Let us know how you are doing – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dear all: After 3 years of chronic pain, 2 failed back surgeries at L4/5 and a herniated disc at C5/6, I finally took my physical therapist’s advise and went to my neurologist for pain management.  He’s a super MD and is willing to work with me with the meds.  I am going to have a last stab at epidurals with a new, top-notch anesthesiologist at a private hospital where I live. At any rate, it looks as though I will have to be on opiate pain meds for a LONG time.  There is a question that I need to find out from any of you (in your experiences – or any pain mgmt. MDs out there) about what I can expect from the Oxycontin.  I am currently taking 20MG twice a day.  It makes the pain tolerable, but doesn’t really erase it.  Is this the best that I should expect?  Or, should I be expecting total relief from pain?  I am reluctant to take high doses due to the "lovely" side-effects that I already have – weight gain, sleep disturbance, etc. Any advice or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. TIA, Jeff

Response:

Thank you for taking the time to write a response….  just to give additional info, a neurosurgeon did the second operation at the lumbar area. The MRI and Myelogram showed that there is considerable scar tissue not only on the disc, but also on the nerve root itself.  When they did an EMG study, it showed the first level of nerve damage.  I have a feeling that’s why they’re reluctant to do any further surgeries.  If you know of any websites that would be useful in my researching new and cutting-edge procedures, I would REALLY appreciate it as my docs are grateful that I take an active part in my treatment and welcome the research that I find. Thanks again, Jeff

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jeff, If Oxycontin completely erased pain, I think it would be touted as the "Miracle Drug"!  It helps me greatly, but never totally takes the pain away. When you say that you are going to be on Opiates for a long, long time, –may I make a suggestion?  Do with it what you please, but, I had one failed surgery before I met my neuro-surgeon (an orthopaedic surgeon did the failed surgery) and at that time had the same opinion as you, "I am NEVER having surgery again" and "I will just take the pills for the rest of my life"…although taking them again at some point in time may be inevitable, I think you owe yourself a chance at letting your neuro take a shot at fixing it.  I did and what a difference!  It has been 5 weeks now since I have had surgery, and the difference was noticed the same day that I had surgery.  My back is not yet perfect, it may never be, but I am not having to take opiates at this time, I feel like I have my brain back. I don’t know, I just thought to myself, I don’t want to be "ruled" by a little pill for the rest of my life if at all possible, if this operation works, yay! if it helps, good! and well, if it does not make the difference, well, then I am no worse off than I was before. Food for thought, I hope this helps, good luck! Cfische Dear all: After 3 years of chronic pain, 2 failed back surgeries at L4/5 and a herniated disc at C5/6, I finally took my physical therapist’s advise and went to my neurologist for pain management.  He’s a super MD and is willing to work with me with the meds.  I am going to have a last stab at epidurals with a new, top-notch anesthesiologist at a private hospital where I live. At any rate, it looks as though I will have to be on opiate pain meds for a LONG time.  There is a question that I need to find out from any of you (in your experiences – or any pain mgmt. MDs out there) about what I can expect from the Oxycontin.  I am currently taking 20MG twice a day.  It makes the pain tolerable, but doesn’t really erase it.  Is this the best that I should expect?  Or, should I be expecting total relief from pain?  I am reluctant to take high doses due to the "lovely" side-effects that I already have – weight gain, sleep disturbance, etc. Any advice or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. TIA, Jeff

Response:

Jeff,      I guess it depends on what is ailing us, but on my first visit to my pain clinic, the evaluating Doc told me I would always have pain. He told me I would have remissions where the pain is so low it is like there is none. Not to be a downer but as someone recently said, that’s why we are called chronic. As far as Oxycontin, I have had good luck with it 6 months as my main med. I have never found it to be much longer lasting than 4 or 5 hours, but I like the fact it is clean of additives. After being moved up to where I could take 80 mg 4/day, I still wake up with a pain " alarm clock ". Right know I am shooting for a reduction in my average daily pain. Something we don’t talk alot about is something you brought up. I have gained over 40lbs since I got hurt. One of my meds has given me a sweet tooth, and my suspicion has always been on the oxycontin. Good luck. Peace, Richard

Response:

Jeff, If Oxycontin completely erased pain, I think it would be touted as the "Miracle Drug"!  It helps me greatly, but never totally takes the pain away. When you say that you are going to be on Opiates for a long, long time, –may I make a suggestion?  Do with it what you please, but, I had one failed surgery before I met my neuro-surgeon (an orthopaedic surgeon did the failed surgery) and at that time had the same opinion as you, "I am NEVER having surgery again" and "I will just take the pills for the rest of my life"…although taking them again at some point in time may be inevitable, I think you owe yourself a chance at letting your neuro take a shot at fixing it.  I did and what a difference!  It has been 5 weeks now since I have had surgery, and the difference was noticed the same day that I had surgery.  My back is not yet perfect, it may never be, but I am not having to take opiates at this time, I feel like I have my brain back. I don’t know, I just thought to myself, I don’t want to be "ruled" by a little pill for the rest of my life if at all possible, if this operation works, yay! if it helps, good! and well, if it does not make the difference, well, then I am no worse off than I was before. Food for thought, I hope this helps, good luck! Cfische

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dear all: After 3 years of chronic pain, 2 failed back surgeries at L4/5 and a herniated disc at C5/6, I finally took my physical therapist’s advise and went to my neurologist for pain management.  He’s a super MD and is willing to work with me with the meds.  I am going to have a last stab at epidurals with a new, top-notch anesthesiologist at a private hospital where I live. At any rate, it looks as though I will have to be on opiate pain meds for a LONG time.  There is a question that I need to find out from any of you (in your experiences – or any pain mgmt. MDs out there) about what I can expect from the Oxycontin.  I am currently taking 20MG twice a day.  It makes the pain tolerable, but doesn’t really erase it.  Is this the best that I should expect?  Or, should I be expecting total relief from pain?  I am reluctant to take high doses due to the "lovely" side-effects that I already have – weight gain, sleep disturbance, etc. Any advice or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. TIA, Jeff

Response:

Dear all: After 3 years of chronic pain, 2 failed back surgeries at L4/5 and a herniated disc at C5/6, I finally took my physical therapist’s advise and went to my neurologist for pain management.  He’s a super MD and is willing to work with me with the meds.  I am going to have a last stab at epidurals with a new, top-notch anesthesiologist at a private hospital where I live. At any rate, it looks as though I will have to be on opiate pain meds for a LONG time.  There is a question that I need to find out from any of you (in your experiences – or any pain mgmt. MDs out there) about what I can expect from the Oxycontin.  I am currently taking 20MG twice a day.  It makes the pain tolerable, but doesn’t really erase it.  Is this the best that I should expect?  Or, should I be expecting total relief from pain?  I am reluctant to take high doses due to the "lovely" side-effects that I already have – weight gain, sleep disturbance, etc. Any advice or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. TIA, Jeff

Response:

Question:

Hi Jim,     When I lived in the City I saw an excellent pdoc. Her name is Dr. Lauren Gorman, she was at Central Park West. Just wanted to mention a positive Pdoc in the Crazy Crazy City … hummingbrd

Response:

there are  many great doctors in NYC…VERY inexpensive is this place: http://www.nyspi.cpmc.columbia.edu/ Located as part of Columbia,they  offer the newest ideas and most openminded help! Offen for free! ALSO: when I lived on Wooster in  TriBeCa, I often had to work hard to feel clean,bright,special…one of my favorite things to do was the Met. of Art another was to pack a beautiful lunch and  take the ferry to  Statue of Liberty Park…a national Park that over looks a beautiful skyline and ocean scenery,take no alcohol,maybe peaceful tapes and ood food!!Ellis Island gets more crowds, the land around the statue is a delite!maryg Hi Jim,     When I lived in the City I saw an excellent pdoc. Her name is Dr. Lauren Gorman, she was at Central Park West. Just wanted to mention a positive Pdoc in the Crazy Crazy City … hummingbrd

Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

Hi Jim, So it’s Saturday morning and I have a talk therapy appointment at 11. Went to the hospital yesterday to see my psychiatrist, and toughed out the (very) brief meeting with him, not wanting to appear too needy. I’ve been feeling very very crazy & suicidal all week and on Wednesday we upped my Effexor dose to 300mg per day.

Are you still taking Depakote? I had prepared a long logical argument with graphs to convince him that the antidepressant side effects were actually causing more depression than they were treating, but he wanted to try more instead of less (I suggested sliding down from 225mg to 150mg). OK. One of my past bad habits has been becoming so upset & mistrustful of my mental health caregivers that I just bail out. I’m trying to trust this young guy (I’ve been taking SSRIs longer than he’s prescribing them). I think this 300mg dose is starting to undercut the good effects of the Depakote (1250mg).

It may be….I guess only time will tell. Has he considered the possibility of adding a 2nd adjunct MS to the Depakote? But then I had to deal with the billing process and the Medicaid office and the damn back & forth (I’m broke & have no money so the clinic will offer me a sliding scale, but because I need meds I applied for Medicaid, but because I applied for Medicaid the clinic won’t offer me a sliding scale and I won’t find out for 2 weeks whether I’ve been approved for Medicaid und so weiter). It was real bad, very Stanislaw Lem.

The bureaucratic run around is so frustrating….and IMO unnecessary. This is a stressor you definitely don’t need (nor does anyone for that matter)!! I feel like I’m failing, like I’ve failed, like there is nothing ahead of me but decline. I’ve applied for SS Disability but have been denied once and the case is up for review. I haven’t paid rent yet this month, and although my sister has offered financial support, I can’t bring myself to actually avail myself of her help.

Please accept her offer. She wants to help and you can use assistance right now. When I first checked out this newsgroup, I saw a very long and angry rant about (text in quotes roughly from memory) "whiners who expect a handout…should get up off their butts and go out and work for a living…" or something to that effect.

Some of us can, and some cannot…through no fault of our own. I have an internal Republican who also says that kind of stuff to me all day long. He’s also an adamant Social Darwinist who tells me that if I don’t have money I’m worthless and that I should just get off the planet.

You are NOT worthless Jim. Just try to let that thought go!!! I dunno. My history is pretty checkered, but I did manage to keep various jobs for about 27 years. My last job was a vice-presidency. I would really like to get back to work sometime soon, but I feel so sick all the time now…this has been the worst 5 years of my life. SSD would provide a little cushion so I could eat better, not worry so much about turning into one of the myriad homeless, and get back on my feet and put myself back into the world.

I do hope you recieve it soon. Most of the time I think suicide is my only option. I’m so tired of all the pain I live with and I can’t imagine things ever getting any better. Maybe I am just a drain on the resources of others and getting out of everyone’s way would be for the best. If only I could just stop my heart….

I share similar sentiments Jim. I’m so tired of the "med go round." It is neverending. I am filled with hoplessness too <sigh. Mostly what I’m doing is just enduring. Plodding through another miserable day. No suicide, just torture. I have no other tools…. Sorry for the long rant.

Please never apologize for sharing your feelings with us. That is why we exist here. You are a worthwhile person…please  try not to succumb to the negative tapes in your head. I will keep you in my thoughts and prayers. (((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((Jim)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))) Yours,

Response:

So it’s Saturday morning and I have a talk therapy appointment at 11. Went to the hospital yesterday to see my psychiatrist, and toughed out the (very) brief meeting with him, not wanting to appear too needy. I’ve been feeling very very crazy & suicidal all week and on Wednesday we upped my Effexor dose to 300mg per day. I had prepared a long logical argument with graphs to convince him that the antidepressant side effects were actually causing more depression than they were treating, but he wanted to try more instead of less (I suggested sliding down from 225mg to 150mg). OK. One of my past bad habits has been becoming so upset & mistrustful of my mental health caregivers that I just bail out. I’m trying to trust this young guy (I’ve been taking SSRIs longer than he’s prescribing them). I think this 300mg dose is starting to undercut the good effects of the Depakote (1250mg). But then I had to deal with the billing process and the Medicaid office and the damn back & forth (I’m broke & have no money so the clinic will offer me a sliding scale, but because I need meds I applied for Medicaid, but because I applied for Medicaid the clinic won’t offer me a sliding scale and I won’t find out for 2 weeks whether I’ve been approved for Medicaid und so weiter). It was real bad, very Stanislaw Lem. I feel like I’m failing, like I’ve failed, like there is nothing ahead of me but decline. I’ve applied for SS Disability but have been denied once and the case is up for review. I haven’t paid rent yet this month, and although my sister has offered financial support, I can’t bring myself to actually avail myself of her help. When I first checked out this newsgroup, I saw a very long and angry rant about (text in quotes roughly from memory) "whiners who expect a handout…should get up off their butts and go out and work for a living…" or something to that effect. I have an internal Republican who also says that kind of stuff to me all day long. He’s also an adamant Social Darwinist who tells me that if I don’t have money I’m worthless and that I should just get off the planet. I dunno. My history is pretty checkered, but I did manage to keep various jobs for about 27 years. My last job was a vice-presidency. I would really like to get back to work sometime soon, but I feel so sick all the time now…this has been the worst 5 years of my life. SSD would provide a little cushion so I could eat better, not worry so much about turning into one of the myriad homeless, and get back on my feet and put myself back into the world. Most of the time I think suicide is my only option. I’m so tired of all the pain I live with and I can’t imagine things ever getting any better. Maybe I am just a drain on the resources of others and getting out of everyone’s way would be for the best. If only I could just stop my heart…. Mostly what I’m doing is just enduring. Plodding through another miserable day. No suicide, just torture. I have no other tools…. Sorry for the long rant. Jim

Response:

Question:

HELP! I just got an email on Zoloft not warning public about depression being a side effect and the Phil Hartman family is suing cuz his wife was on Zoloft….course she was also on cocaine and alcohol when she shot him. Anyway my breathing symptom has made me depressed and yesterday I had some pretty hard thoughts about my depression. I not a depressed person I dont think and I even posted this. I know the media likes to exagerate any meds sometimes like they say prozac causes violence (probably Littleton teen were on meds).Anyway would like feedback. Hey if it block my pa’s its a great drug for me. Take care Brenda in her fourth week of Zoloft.

Typical, she was stoned out of her brain on coke and booze, but the And in the high school shooting the guys involved were taunted etc for years, but because one was on Luvox, naturally the med was And for a long time Prozac was the "demon" med from hell because some of it’s users commited suicide, totally ignoring the fact that about 20% of those with emotional disorders try this, thats why many were on BULLSHIT!!! Ian

Response:

thnaks for reminding me how hypersensitive we are to news. Listen to this news flash….. (since we are so hypersensitive to suggestion) SSRI are making people well again….drug companies will probably lower the costs Society accredite psych drugs  to helping people get along…no more wars Studies show after year of the stigma of pschologically challenged people find out they had all the answers…. The PDOC were more informed (due to med that gives you PD for one year before you can become a PDOC) prayer brought back into school road ragers given tickets and script for Prozac and Cowboys actually had a better season…..welll maybe not that one

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -thnaks for reminding me how hypersensitive we are to news. Listen to this news flash….. (since we are so hypersensitive to suggestion) SSRI are making people well again….drug companies will probably lower the costs Society accredite psych drugs  to helping people get along…no more wars Studies show after year of the stigma of pschologically challenged people find out they had all the answers…. The PDOC were more informed (due to med that gives you PD for one year before you can become a PDOC) prayer brought back into school road ragers given tickets and script for Prozac and Cowboys actually had a better season…..welll maybe not that one

LOL. But this could happen if a certain "herb" is legalised!!!! But, maybe not, IME most journos are already supplementing their alcohol intake with one or other of the "feel good"  *meds* not normally available at you friendly neighbourhood pharmacy. Ian

Response:

HELP! I just got an email on Zoloft not warning public about depression being a side effect and the Phil Hartman family is suing cuz his wife was on Zoloft….course she was also on cocaine and alcohol when she shot him. Anyway my breathing symptom has made me depressed and yesterday I had some pretty hard thoughts about my depression. I not a depressed person I dont think and I even posted this. I know the media likes to exagerate any meds sometimes like they say prozac causes violence (probably Littleton teen were on meds).Anyway would like feedback. Hey if it block my pa’s its a great drug for me. Take care Brenda in her fourth week of Zoloft.

Response:

Hi Brenda…I also, read this is in the paper(about HArtman’s wife) but as you already mentioned…she was on cocaine as well….i would more than likely blame the coke.  I’ve been on Zoloft for 5 years, and it did not alter me a a person. Kerrie

Response:

If you suddenly start collecting firearms and have a desire for black trench coats then you should stop the meds.  Imo anybody who commits acts of violence is predisposed to the meds are an excuse.  If the dose of an ad is too high people can get hypomanic or a little uncaring a little too spontaneous a little too too-but most people with anxiety could use that little too too so don’t sweat the se of these drugs liten up stop reading this shit and try and relax–if the med isn’t working for you in a few more weeks try another or give it up.  Everybody looks for real stupid excuses for peoples stupid behavior this woem killed a man she’s nuts-period- the kids in co. were off the fn wall there is no excuse just real sick minds.  These meds are scary but taking asprin is scary too no?  Watching the news and reading this stuff when highly sensitized makes you feel ill–so don’t do it for a while LM

Response:

I’ve been on Zoloft for 6 years and I haven’t killed anyone (yet).  :-) My, we’re a suggestable lot. And we have so many side effects to pick from. Sometimes I just read the PDR and wonder if I have the symptoms listed. Sometime I do. But other times I’m not  sure (but I  never eliminate the possibility that I might!). I also do the "what if" thing. That’s when I don’t have the symptom, but I start wondering "what if"   if I did get the symptom. (Just because I don’t have it now is no guarantee I won’t have it in the future!). And there’s another part of that "what if" thing: that’s when I read the side effects, and don’t have them, but I say "what if" I DO HAVE them, but I just don’t realize I have them. Well, I better go now. I feel like I need to throw up.  Also I’ve been thinking about the woman on Zoloft who killed her husband. What was her dose? I’m on a pretty low dose, I hope. I don’t have any guns in the house, but I keep a baseball bat under the bed in case of burglars. I’ve never heard of anyone killing himself with a baseball bat, BUT, "what if" it’s possible? Sometimes I think I worry too much. But, other times I say "what if" I never worried. Now thats got me worried. Are they sure it was the Zoloft that did it? Even if they don’t know for sure, it could have been. Probably was.  : – )

Response:

HELP! I just got an email on Zoloft not warning public about depression being a side effect and the Phil Hartman family is suing cuz his wife was on Zoloft….course she was also on cocaine and alcohol when she shot him. Anyway my breathing symptom has made me depressed and yesterday I had some pretty hard thoughts about my depression. I not a depressed person I dont think and I even posted this. I know the media likes to exagerate any meds sometimes like they say prozac causes violence (probably Littleton teen were on meds).Anyway would like feedback. Hey if it block my pa’s its a great drug for me. Take care Brenda in her fourth week of Zoloft.

I would continue with the Zoloft if I were you. It’s still early days. Zoloft is an *antidepressant* so it’s more likely to counteract than to cause depression although it possibly can occur as a very are adverse effect. If depression was a documented side effect of Zoloft, the manufacturer would have mentioned it in the insert were it only to be legally covered just in case. The media hype around SSRI’s and violence can safely be ignored IMO. Let them change education and the school system and a few other things about contemporary society g, that’s where the real problems are. People do all kinds of things while being on meds or not – any causality is highly unlikely. You are, like most of us, a sensitive soul and a med phobic but please give Zoloft time – after another four weeks you will either feel *much* better or know for sure that Zoloft is not the med for you. My money is on success. Philip

Response:

Question:

I’m wondering if anyone else has had my experience or has any advice. I’ve tried many different AD’s and none of them seems to work.  I’ve tried Prozac, twice, the second time at 40 mg/day; Elavil; Buspar (anti-anxiety drug); a couple of tri-cyclics which gave me too many side effects (Imiprimane and Desipramine [sp?]); Trazodone; and St. John’s  Wort.  I’ve tried each of these for a good amount of time, 2 or more months, except the side-effect ones, which I stopped after a few days because of the side effects. The only thing that ever really helps me is therapy and talking to friends.  I talked to an experienced psychiatrist about this once and he said that some people just don’t respond to AD’s.  I have been extremely annoyed at this whole process during the 2-3 years I’ve been involved in trying all these things.  I haven’t had any insurance and the costs, to say the least, have been excessive.  At the dosage I was on, Prozac and Buspar were $120 per month each!  Plus doctor visit charges.  The thing that annoys me is that I wish I had known that none of them would work BEFORE I spent all that money and time and effort. This also disturbs me when I think about all the other people out there who are desperately trying AD’s to help themselves.  Most of them are helped by AD’s, but some aren’t (I couldn’t be the only one, could I?).  Because the whole process of finding an AD for a patient is so hit-and-miss ("Well, we don’t know if this will help you, but try it and see" is something I’ve heard TOO MANY TIMES), one can easily end up spending lots of money before the doctors realize that nothing is going to work. One thing about my history that may be different from many people’s is that I’ve been depressed most of my life, since the age of 9, because of severe early childhood abuse.  This may mean that my depression is more post-traumatic stress than biochemical.  I don’t know much about the theory of biochemistry causing depression, so I may be getting this wrong, I don’t know. One side note about the St. John’s Wort:  at least it was cheap!  And it did feel good to know I was taking something more natural and less likely to cause negative side effects. Any comments, anyone? –Carol

Response:

Carol, What dosage of SJW did you take? I have found that 5 or 6 300 mg standard capsules morning and evening is what I need. That is 3600 mg per day. I have no side effects from that dosage. I also found that some brands just don’t work. (the Pharmasave house brand, in particular) I use Webber (it’s the cheapest and comes bundled with gincko or a stress herb) If you wish to try larger doses you should build up over two or three days at least. I think it would be safe to go as far as 6000 mg per day if necessary, from what I have read, although I have never needed to go that high. I tried Zoloft and didn’t like the side effects. Peter B. Legere – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m wondering if anyone else has had my experience or has any advice. One side note about the St. John’s Wort:  at least it was cheap!  And it did feel good to know I was taking something more natural and less likely to cause negative side effects. Any comments, anyone? –Carol

Response:

Dear Carol: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve tried many different AD’s and none of them seems to work.  I’ve tried Prozac, twice, the second time at 40 mg/day; Elavil; Buspar (anti-anxiety drug); a couple of tri-cyclics which gave me too many side effects (Imiprimane and Desipramine [sp?]); Trazodone; and St. John’s  Wort.  I’ve tried each of these for a good amount of time, 2 or more months, except the side-effect ones, which I stopped after a few days because of the side effects. The only thing that ever really helps me is therapy and talking to friends.  I talked to an experienced psychiatrist about this once and he said that some people just don’t respond to AD’s.  I have been extremely annoyed at this whole process during the 2-3 years I’ve been involved in trying all these things.  I haven’t had any insurance and the costs, to say the least, have been excessive.  At the dosage I was on, Prozac and Buspar were $120 per month each!  Plus doctor visit charges.  The thing that annoys me is that I wish I had known that none of them would work BEFORE I spent all that money and time and effort.

It’s unfortunate, but, at the current state of the art, there’s no way to predict the likely success or failure of meds on any one individual nor, for sure, which one, if any, will work.  There’s a lot more success with ‘which one’ than ‘whether any’.  There’s considerable research ongoing in both, and other areas, of dealing with clinical depression. While there are meds you’ve not tried and combinations thereof, it’s understandable that you’d be reluctant to spend more money in this way. Somewhere between 20% and 25% of depressives don’t respond to the current antidepressants at all.  Often those who want to give up on a particular antidepressant because of some side effects, if persuaded to stick it out, find the side effects diminish and the drug take effect properly.  Of those depressives refractory to medication, about half respond positively to ECT. This also disturbs me when I think about all the other people out there who are desperately trying AD’s to help themselves.  Most of them are helped by AD’s, but some aren’t (I couldn’t be the only one, could I?).  Because the whole process of finding an AD for a patient is so hit-and-miss ("Well, we don’t know if this will help you, but try it and see" is something I’ve heard TOO MANY TIMES), one can easily end up spending lots of money before the doctors realize that nothing is going to work.

That is, unfortunately, the case.  I don’t think it’s anyone’s fault, just that our knowledge isn’t yet sufficiently great to avoid this. The downside of not trying, of course, is depression and its side effects. If one tries, more than 80% of the time appropriate treatment works. One thing about my history that may be different from many people’s is that I’ve been depressed most of my life, since the age of 9, because of severe early childhood abuse.  This may mean that my depression is more post-traumatic stress than biochemical.  I don’t know much about the theory of biochemistry causing depression, so I may be getting this wrong, I don’t know.

While you may have it right, that shouldn’t seriously affect the choice of meds although it would raise the importance of talk therapy as well. One side note about the St. John’s Wort:  at least it was cheap!  And it did feel good to know I was taking something more natural and less likely to cause negative side effects.

This business of ‘natural’ is, IMHO, highly over rated. There have been no good clinical trials of St. John’s Wort in this country.  The only ones of which I’m aware were in Germany and have been challenged on many counts.  It’s method of action is unclear and there have been far more reports of failure than of success with it here.  When one purchases it one cannot be sure, from purchase to purchase, of the amount of active ingredient one is getting.  Not only that, optimal dosages have yet to be determined. Any comments, anyone?

If you were to ask what I’d do now, if I were you, I suspect that, since I don’t know where you are located and thus can’t be more specific, I’d call the nearest _teaching_ hospital and ask for a referral to a really good psychopharmacologist (biopsychiatrist).  I’d lay out the story in as much detail as possible for hir and see what (s)he says. Best of luck, Peter

[ Nafdi 1K ]

The National Foundation for Depressive Illness, Inc. maintains "800" lines which, presently through a recorded message, provide callers with the symptoms of depression and manic depression and inform them of how to receive a packet of additional information from NAFDI.  This additional information includes a referral list, by state, of doctors and support groups as well as a bibliography, our brochure and additional relevant articles.  The number to call, toll-free, is 1-800-245-4306. If you are familiar with the symptoms of depression and manic depression and prefer not to listen to the recording, you may write to us, The National Foundation for Depressive Illness, Inc. (or NAFDI) at Post Office Box 2257, New York, NY 10116-2257 and request the information.  Please enclose a self-addressed envelope of business size or larger with $1.01 of U.S. postage affixed (for U.S. addresses).  As we are a not-for-profit organization, if you can afford it, please enclose a contribution of $5 or more.  If you can’t afford that, please let us know and we’ll be happy to send you exactly the same material at no charge. You may also visit us at our web page <http://www.depression.org. In any case, we wish you good luck!

Response:

Hi Are you located in a large city?  I go to a non-for-profit organization of doctors and therapists and the costs are much less.  Maybe there’s one listed in your phone book. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Carol, What dosage of SJW did you take? I have found that 5 or 6 300 mg standard capsules morning and evening is what I need. That is 3600 mg per day. I have no side effects from that dosage. I also found that some brands just don’t work. (the Pharmasave house brand, in particular) I use Webber (it’s the cheapest and comes bundled with gincko or a stress herb) If you wish to try larger doses you should build up over two or three days at least. I think it would be safe to go as far as 6000 mg per day if necessary, from what I have read, although I have never needed to go that high. I tried Zoloft and didn’t like the side effects. Peter B. Legere I’m wondering if anyone else has had my experience or has any advice. One side note about the St. John’s Wort:  at least it was cheap!  And it did feel good to know I was taking something more natural and less likely to cause negative side effects. Any comments, anyone? –Carol

Response:

Hi, I am new to this group. I started taking AD’s about 4 months ago. I take 1000mg  of luvox and have been lucky with the side effects, only one I have that bothers me a little is the reduced libido <s Anyway I went back to my dr and told him I didn’t think they were helping so he said well try going off them and see what happens, well apparently they were working : )  So I went back on. Then I read about St. JW and tried that with the Luvox then read you shouldn’t take both, so went off luvox and am presently just taking sjw 1000mg a day and so far its been better than taking nothing, but was wondering about dosage and such, and whether anyone out there takes both the sjw and the  ad drugs together. I had a minor breakdown the other day and ended up on the floor bawling my eyes out and finally saying out loud that I need help. This was after my 3 kids were gone all weekend and home again for around 2 hours and I couldn’t take it, I totally lost it. So I finally called a family services place that will send someone to talk to you and you kids etc., and just making the call I actually felt better than I had in ages. Oops went a little off the track…. <s What I am wondering is, if any one has any information about sjw and combining it with regular ad drugs and if they have had any luck with just the sjw etc…..or maybe I should just try a different ad drug, im not sure. This is all very new to me although in retrospect its been there quite some time. If the info on SJW is redundant feel free to email me directly. Thank you for any info : ) Lorraine – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Carol, What dosage of SJW did you take? I have found that 5 or 6 300 mg standard capsules morning and evening is what I need. That is 3600 mg per day. I have no side effects from that dosage.

Response:

I’m wondering if anyone else has had my experience or has any advice. I’ve tried many different AD’s and none of them seems to work.  I’ve <snip Any comments, anyone? –Carol

Well…..I’ve tried eight AD’s …..First was zoloft..did that for 8 months, and for a time added trazodone along with it.  It worked so-so…. Next was paxil…did that for about 3 months.  I didn’t have energy to do much of anything.  The withdrawl was 2 weeks of misery.   Next I went without anything for about 2 months.  Signed up for a 10 week self esteem class which used a workbook on Cognitive Behavioral Therapy.  I felt worse about myself at the end than I did when I started.   Then I tried prozac for 4 months….helped some (any improvement was better than I was).  Started having significant side effects after the dose went beyond 50mg.  Started feeling more depressed as the dose increased. Started effexor…almost stopped it cuz I felt so yucky, but I think it was due to coming off the prozac.  Effexor worked real well for me for about 15 months. **SOAP BOX TIME** I really don’t think that doctors who work in the field of prescribing antidepressant medications fully appreciate how powerful these drugs are, and how strongly they affect the body.  My doctor, for instance, tends to believe that you can just taper a person (me) off one drug for a week or so and add a new drug at the same time or immediately thereafter, and everything will be hunky dory.  WRONG!!!!  As far as I am concerned, there is always some sort of withdrawl the body goes through when stopping one antidepressant, even if you start another at the same time.  I have gone through this a number of times, and I hope I have been instrumental in helping my doctor learn more about this.  Still, there is that transition period where my life sucks even more when I have changed meds. **END OF SOAP BOX** anyway, coming off the prozac made it seem like the effexor was giving me a bad reaction at first, but I hung in and after about a week things were ok.   After about 15 months, I was feeling sort of down, more depressed than I had been in a while.  I was also feeling "chemicalized" and kind of wanted to stop.  My pdoc was gonna have me start serzone, but I tapered off the effexor (again with a two week withdrawl). So, I then went 3 months taking St. John’s Wort.  It helped some, but I gradually sank down badly again, and when work took a stressful turn, I went down fast. Then I took serzone for 4 months.  It is supposed to make most people a little drowsy, but it had the opposite effect on me.  I felt wired.  It leveled out a bit over time, but during this period I did not sleep very soundly.  It was just moderately effective for the depression. At the beginning of february I started remeron.  Again, in changing meds, I had the usual nausea and stuff associated with withdrawl, but man o man that remeron!! It was like Night of the Living Dead!!  I slept HARD for the 3 weeks I took that stuff.  Supposedly the higher the dose, the more that symptom goes away, but I was still a space cadet even after increasing the dose. So I practically begged my pdoc to let me go back on effexor, which I started again this week.  Right now I’m going through the remeron withdrawls, nausea, diarhea and such, but I feel human again. **THEORY** I believe in my case, having taken antidepressants off and on now for over 3 years, that whatever my depression is, drugs only help it to a moderate degree.  It has been my experience that continually increasing the dosage yields diminishing returns.  It does appear, at least at this time in my life, that I need the help of the antidepressants to handle life.  I am working in other ways on "handling life," and perhaps someday I will obtain some results that will make it unnecessary to take antidepressants. I really don’t know.   But, I think I do best if I take the lowest dose that gives any decent effect. And, I am beginning to believe that my system needs a periodic chemical free period.  So my plan at this point is to take the lowest dose of effexor that will stabilize my mood, which from past experience I think is either 150mg or 225mg.  I think that I will also try to go about a month a year chemical free. I guess to summarize, at least maybe to summarize to myself, it takes a long period of trial and error to find out what works and what doesnt.  The hard part is to somehow hang in there while going through all the ups and downs. Best wishes, Patrick *** To reply by email, remove the zzz from my email address ***

Response:

Patrick, Sounds to me that you are playing Russin Rolette. If you had Diabetis, would you go off your insulin for a month every year? Biocemical depression, is a medical condition. The medication change the chemicals in you brain. You only fall deeper each time you start to treat yourself instead of following your pdoc’s advice.                    Please talk to your doc, about your conserns.                                     Penny – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m wondering if anyone else has had my experience or has any advice. I’ve tried many different AD’s and none of them seems to work.  I’ve <snip Any comments, anyone? –Carol Well…..I’ve tried eight AD’s …..First was zoloft..did that for 8 months, and for a time added trazodone along with it.  It worked so-so…. Next was paxil…did that for about 3 months.  I didn’t have energy to do much of anything.  The withdrawl was 2 weeks of misery.   Next I went without anything for about 2 months.  Signed up for a 10 week self esteem class which used a workbook on Cognitive Behavioral Therapy.  I felt worse about myself at the end than I did when I started.   Then I tried prozac for 4 months….helped some (any improvement was better than I was).  Started having significant side effects after the dose went beyond 50mg.  Started feeling more depressed as the dose increased. Started effexor…almost stopped it cuz I felt so yucky, but I think it was due to coming off the prozac.  Effexor worked real well for me for about 15 months. **SOAP BOX TIME** I really don’t think that doctors who work in the field of prescribing antidepressant medications fully appreciate how powerful these drugs are, and how strongly they affect the body.  My doctor, for instance, tends to believe that you can just taper a person (me) off one drug for a week or so and add a new drug at the same time or immediately thereafter, and everything will be hunky dory.  WRONG!!!!  As far as I am concerned, there is always some sort of withdrawl the body goes through when stopping one antidepressant, even if you start another at the same time.  I have gone through this a number of times, and I hope I have been instrumental in helping my doctor learn more about this.  Still, there is that transition period where my life sucks even more when I have changed meds. **END OF SOAP BOX** anyway, coming off the prozac made it seem like the effexor was giving me a bad reaction at first, but I hung in and after about a week things were ok.   After about 15 months, I was feeling sort of down, more depressed than I had been in a while.  I was also feeling "chemicalized" and kind of wanted to stop.  My pdoc was gonna have me start serzone, but I tapered off the effexor (again with a two week withdrawl). So, I then went 3 months taking St. John’s Wort.  It helped some, but I gradually sank down badly again, and when work took a stressful turn, I went down fast. Then I took serzone for 4 months.  It is supposed to make most people a little drowsy, but it had the opposite effect on me.  I felt wired.  It leveled out a bit over time, but during this period I did not sleep very soundly.  It was just moderately effective for the depression. At the beginning of february I started remeron.  Again, in changing meds, I had the usual nausea and stuff associated with withdrawl, but man o man that remeron!! It was like Night of the Living Dead!!  I slept HARD for the 3 weeks I took that stuff.  Supposedly the higher the dose, the more that symptom goes away, but I was still a space cadet even after increasing the dose. So I practically begged my pdoc to let me go back on effexor, which I started again this week.  Right now I’m going through the remeron withdrawls, nausea, diarhea and such, but I feel human again. **THEORY** I believe in my case, having taken antidepressants off and on now for over 3 years, that whatever my depression is, drugs only help it to a moderate degree.  It has been my experience that continually increasing the dosage yields diminishing returns.  It does appear, at least at this time in my life, that I need the help of the antidepressants to handle life.  I am working in other ways on "handling life," and perhaps someday I will obtain some results that will make it unnecessary to take antidepressants. I really don’t know.   But, I think I do best if I take the lowest dose that gives any decent effect. And, I am beginning to believe that my system needs a periodic chemical free period.  So my plan at this point is to take the lowest dose of effexor that will stabilize my mood, which from past experience I think is either 150mg or 225mg.  I think that I will also try to go about a month a year chemical free. I guess to summarize, at least maybe to summarize to myself, it takes a long period of trial and error to find out what works and what doesnt.  The hard part is to somehow hang in there while going through all the ups and downs. Best wishes, Patrick *** To reply by email, remove the zzz from my email address ***

Response:

What happened with the prozac? SSRIs (Selective Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitors) "Extract" Selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors, or SSRIs, are newer antidepressants which often treat the symptoms of depression more effectively than TCAs and for many people, produce less troublesome side effects. Besides treating depression, SSRIs are sometimes used to treat the symptoms of obsessive-compulsive disorder. Luvox

Question:

Hi gang.  My Mother-in-law called today as she read an article about Taco Neck offending those with ST in Baton Rouge, LA.  There was a local phone number & I called and found there exists a number of people with dystonia living in my area. They have a "group" but it doesn’t meet due to the fact that many members cannot get there as they are homebound.  Most of the members have ST, however, which differs from me as I am generalized.  I did find out that the head of the local group presented ST info to a local neurologist and that physician made a point to go to Houston and learn how to give BOTOX injections.  He has saved several people the long drive and it sounds as if he has done a lot of good.  I had heard of this physician when people thought I had MS and almost contacted him to see if he would like to take a shot at helping my dystonia, but I was afraid he’d look at my records and think I was crazy again…he is in the same clinic with one of the neuros who sent me home with a bag of depression meds; later he said I had a benign essential tremor with "some rigidity". Not!!!   After talking with the head of the group, I learned that none of them accessed info on the computer and he was surprised at how many of us correspond with one another with such frequency.  He asked the cutest question, "Well, tell me, have you been able to find very many people with dystonia by looking in your computer?" He was blown away by my answer!!! Now he wants to try to "rejuvenate" the group  and try to meet again to set up a way to meet regularly.  He wants me to tell them about our newsgroup and all the friends we’ve all made, how we keep each other from feeling misunderstood, alone.  It was a good time to talk to him because I feel like I’ve been losing the battle against dystonia lately…I’m sure it’s temporary as I’ve never been hit this hard for long since I got on the meds.  He said there’s no one in the group who has it all over them this way, but he said that regardless of what happens, I’m going to win anyway, he said he heard it in my voice. (What if I lose my voice!<g) I’m scared to death, but I’m thinking about making an appointment with that physician.  He’s even on my PPO so it will only be $10.  I haven’t seen a doctor since last September and I was there to get a letter that said I was doing great so our group insurance could be moved to a less expensive carrier.  I will be hurt if I subject myself to this man and he comes up with some oddball stress and anxiety diagnosis.  Then he’d probably send that to my primary care physician and mess up the only reasonable avenue I have for help here.  Okay, I’m out of the closet now…the Slipper is scared of being called a nut (well at least by doctors). —Gene, don’t you dare jump on that statement!!!<g The other good news is that our nine-parish newspaper printed the short article about Taco Neck and ST and the phone number.  Perhaps it will get the attention of someone like me. Okay, so that’s that.  I’m no longer an alien life form here in this town. (—I’m warning you Gene..don’t say it!!!<g) Love yaw, Slipper

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi gang.  My Mother-in-law called today as she read an article about Taco Neck offending those with ST in Baton Rouge, LA.  There was a local phone number & I called and found there exists a number of people with dystonia living in my area. They have a "group" but it doesn’t meet due to the fact that many members cannot get there as they are homebound.  Most of the members have ST, however, which differs from me as I am generalized.  I did find out that the head of the local group presented ST info to a local neurologist and that physician made a point to go to Houston and learn how to give BOTOX injections.  He has saved several people the long drive and it sounds as if he has done a lot of good.  I had heard of this physician when people thought I had MS and almost contacted him to see if he would like to take a shot at helping my dystonia, but I was afraid he’d look at my records and think I was crazy again…he is in the same clinic with one of the neuros who sent me home with a bag of depression meds; later he said I had a benign essential tremor with "some rigidity". Not!!!   After talking with the head of the group, I learned that none of them accessed info on the computer and he was surprised at how many of us correspond with one another with such frequency.  He asked the cutest question, "Well, tell me, have you been able to find very many people with dystonia by looking in your computer?" He was blown away by my answer!!! Now he wants to try to "rejuvenate" the group  and try to meet again to set up a way to meet regularly.  He wants me to tell them about our newsgroup and all the friends we’ve all made, how we keep each other from feeling misunderstood, alone.  It was a good time to talk to him because I feel like I’ve been losing the battle against dystonia lately…I’m sure it’s temporary as I’ve never been hit this hard for long since I got on the meds.  He said there’s no one in the group who has it all over them this way, but he said that regardless of what happens, I’m going to win anyway, he said he heard it in my voice. (What if I lose my voice!<g) I’m scared to death, but I’m thinking about making an appointment with that physician.  He’s even on my PPO so it will only be $10.  I haven’t seen a doctor since last September and I was there to get a letter that said I was doing great so our group insurance could be moved to a less expensive carrier.  I will be hurt if I subject myself to this man and he comes up with some oddball stress and anxiety diagnosis.  Then he’d probably send that to my primary care physician and mess up the only reasonable avenue I have for help here.  Okay, I’m out of the closet now…the Slipper is scared of being called a nut (well at least by doctors). —Gene, don’t you dare jump on that statement!!!<g The other good news is that our nine-parish newspaper printed the short article about Taco Neck and ST and the phone number.  Perhaps it will get the attention of someone like me. Okay, so that’s that.  I’m no longer an alien life form here in this town. (—I’m warning you Gene..don’t say it!!!<g) Love yaw, Slipper

Slipper: Sorry to hear you’re on a downer — these slides are tough. In my case it has been deemed too risky for me to see a neurologist as my case got botched so much it became almost political with a large "P". Anyway, it has not escaped my attention what happened after I simply wandered by and posted that "Library Neck" story. Well, well, seems you, Gene and Catherine just jumped on my innocent question about the source of Gene’s humour — er, I mean printed jokes <<g. Boy did you three run with that one! Proving to us all that the three of you are sorta, kinda, somewhat, grudgingly, in an offhanded way, indirectly, less than obviously pals . SO glad <<g I could help!!! Gotta watch those innocent questions of mine! Hi to all John

Response:

writes: ..just send flowers to Gaby, you will know what happened…..<<g Send flowers to Gaby anyway!!! <g Gene, Gene listen, listen to me…behave.

You know I always behave, don’t ya?   <g <<<<<<<<<<<<<<G -Slip

OK! OK!  Slipper you win, you win….<g It is true, Slipper and I are good friends and we don’t fight off line.   It’s a nice sunny day out and it reminds me to wish everyone (including a special someone:-) a great summer.  I am taking a break but will be checking my e-mail sporadically  and responding to anyone who writes. Gene

Response:

. Boy did you three run with that one! Proving to us all that the three of you are sorta, kinda, somewhat, grudgingly, in an offhanded way, indirectly, less than obviously pals .

Actually John, and don’t repeat this, we fight all the time off line. You haven’t seen my eyes….and  bruises here and there, I am a mess….  Now Slipper has instructed the whole gang to.."go get him." Yikes!!!!!!  If you stop hearing from me….just send flowers to Gaby, you will know what happened…..<<g

Response:

writes: ..just send flowers to Gaby, you will know what happened…..<<g

Send flowers to Gaby anyway!!! <g Gene, Gene listen, listen to me…behave. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<G -Slip

Response:

Question:

I sure do know about those meetings with the stone faced and tight lipped teachers and the tables like aircraft carriers!!!

George and Cathi- I know about these too.  I get anxious every time I walk into my son’s school (which is every day to pick him up) when the teachers accost me.  It is always them against me.  And I say to myself, if this is how I feel, imagine how my child must feel!     Judy

Response:

Why is it that the educators are so slow when it comes to Tourette’s and ADD. Why can’t they understand it? One produces books, papers, professional educational advocates and testers, neurologists and psychopharmacologists to explain it to them , and they still don’t get it. Why is there no accountbility in our educational system? Does the American Civil Disabities act address discrimination against the handicapped in our public school ?                                               Dr. George

Response:

I have a unique perspective of this being both a teacher and a mother of a child with TS.  In college, a BA and a MA degree, I never learned one bit about TS or ADD.  Everything I know I learned on my own as I had to deal with students with ADD and now my TS son.  As educators, we walk a very find line.  The law says we have to educate everyone.  The problem is these children can be very disruptive in a classroom.  Then the parents of the other children complain.  It is very difficult to keep all of the parents happy.  In a large school, children who do not succeed in one classroom can always change to another.  In the school where I teach, there is only one class of 5th grade.  There also are no private schools. Again, if you have problems contact the Office of Civil Rights.  They are the branch that investivates and doles out punishment for schools that violate children’s civil rights.  All of these services are FREE.  Contact them through a hotline for the handicapped or your state education department.  

Response:

"They" don’t get it….unless "they" have to…or, perchance, "they" are among the more compassionate, devoted, and tireless (of which there ARE many). Good rule of thumb..don’t assume that all "professionals" are humanists. Take charge of your own destiny..and make certain that "they" have what "they" need to treat you, and your children, correctly. If they don’t, see that they do. One way or another. KAT in CT In <4frn9a$…@newsbf02.news.aol.com

drgeor1…@aol.com (DrGeor107a)

writes:

Why is it that the educators are so slow when it comes to Tourette’s

and

ADD. Why can’t they understand it? One produces books, papers, professional educational advocates and testers, neurologists and

psychopharmacologists – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

to explain it to them , and they still don’t get it. Why is there no accountbility in our educational system? Does the American Civil Disabities act address discrimination against the handicapped in our public school ?                                              Dr. George

Response:

darc…@aol.com (DarcieG) wrote:

The problem is these children can be very disruptive   in a classroom.  Then the parents of the other children   complain.  It is very difficult to keep all of the parents   happy.

Yup. Consider the mother of two sons, one tourettic, the other "normal". Her normal boy is in a classroom with a   severly disabled student who needs constant attention; her tourettic boy is disrupting his own class. She’s experiencing it from both perspectives. It is hard to find the philosophical middle ground. I was a difficult, disruptive student, back in the bad old pre-LD, pre-TS days of the 50’s and 60’s.   My sisters and my father (all educators) glare at me when I say this, but I have long favored the so-called voucher plan where the government gives the parent of each child a voucher valid for education. It’s up to the parent to match the school to the child.   With a diagnosis of TS and what we know now, I would have done   well in a small private school, considerably better than I did in huge public schools. In the larger cities at least, there is the critical mass of special students necessary to support such schools; the public system, however, is inescapably (and often necessarily) mired in a slow moving, slowly reacting, and   frequently unresponsive bureaucracy. Nobody, including the parents of "normal" children seems happy with the US public school system. (But consider our non-US readers, from South Africa, Canada, Ireland or Israel, dealing   with radically different systems of public education; we   actually have it pretty good in the US).   — Mark Odegard         mlom…@nyc.pipeline.com

Response:

It is not fair to generalize about educators . I have found that they are very willing to learn about Tourett’s and will try to make adaptations in their programs. Of course, not all educators are "open" but neither are they all "closed". Educators are facing many more challenges in the classroom right now. Public support is most important. I provide a package of materials for teachers and other people working with my daughter. I also make myself available to the teachers. I also speak to groups of teachers in inservice situation.                                      Regards, Ramona Jennex Williams

Response:

In article <4fqhv3$…@newsbf02.news.aol.com, heyjud…@aol.com (HeyJude49) writes: (written by someone else) I sure do know about those meetings with the stone faced and tight lipped teachers and the tables like aircraft carriers!!! What a great analogy!  I have a follow up meeting tomorrow with Jason’s teachers.  I wonder if I should prepare an opening joke <G. Bonnie Grimaldi   in Columbus, Ohio

WhatEVER you do, don’t wear that T-shirt with the big red sun on it….in light of an earlier post I saw here today, it could be somewhat counterproductive!! (sorry, ya’ll…..I’m losing it this A.M.) KAT in CT

Response:

kat, whata great idea. Mike can wear his "we tic together" shirt, I’ll wear the tourette athletic dept shirt and Neal can wear a TS shirt to our IEP review and transition meeting on Wednesday.  I stopped by our dept.of rehab. services to ask about more info for transitioning kids and getting him in the VECTOR program. Turns out the gal who works with hios high school had been complaining that she notifies the high school several times a year that she is available for transition meeting and they have NEVER called her. Well, I left a note inviting her to his meeting. If she comes, as well as the PACER advocate, we will have some good moral support for Neal. he is nervous about the meeting as the last one, he was seated in back of all the adults at the table and it was a major bashing session on how he needs to do better, if they write an IEP and make all these accomidations for him, they expect him to do better (might help if they followed the IEP). They were also on him about regardless of his "handicapping conditions" (I hate that phrase as much as on task and focused) he cannot miss school. I am hoping for a good positive meeting this time with advocates there to keep the school on the straight and narrow and as a backup for us (we make excuses, are overprotective, don’t push him enough,etc. -and besides that, I know too much!)  Pat

Response:

In <312879F3.4…@metvax.metro.msus.edu

Pat Rummenie

<rumme…@metvax.metro.msus.edu

writes:

 we will have some good moral

support for Neal. he is nervous about the meeting as the last one, he

was

seated in back of all the adults at the table and it was a major

bashing

session on how he needs to do better, if they write an IEP and make

all

these accomidations for him, they expect him to do better (might help

if

they followed the IEP). They were also on him about regardless of his "handicapping conditions"

Ethologists have known for some time now that one of the things that causes "higher animals" such terrific grief and stress is the feeling of loss of control. Picture this: a kid, about half the size and age of the roomful of "grownups" sitting in the back of the room, facing a desk that looks like "an aircraft carrier" (great metaphor, by the way!), waiting to hear what those "grownups" are going to decide to do with his life for the next few years..or longer. If he speaks up, he’s being "out of control, impertinent, willful" etc. If he doesn’t, he’s at risk of finding all his decisions made for him..whether he likes them or not. Either way, he loses. Talk about "loss of control." Is it any wonder then, that our kids go off the wall when they get home, out of school, and out of the straightjacket imposed by society’s "rules of order?" I think not. To me, it seems all perfectly logical. To wit: how many of "our" kids do MUCH better in the summer time…when time and circumstances allow them to be in more control of their own, immediate destinies? Food for thought…at the very least. KAT in CT

Response:

I am hoping for a good positive meeting this time with advocates there to keep the school on the straight and narrow and as a backup for us (we make excuses, are overprotective, don’t push him enough,etc. -and besides that, I know too much!)  Pat

Good luck at your meeting.  Know that there is a group of people out here rooting for you.    Judy

Response:

    Gosh, Pat, does Neal have to be in the room when all of the decisions are made?  That’s enough to make any adult nervous, let alone one of our TS kids.  Does Neal have to put his hand over his heart and promise to …………..? I consider this cruel and usual punishment.  No wonder he is nervous.  I’m nervous for him. I would think this is very counter productive.     I agree with KAT’s wonderful objectivity.  She is always right on.       Good luck.  Let us know what happens.                           Karen in Ohio  

Response:

One approach that should alleviate a lot of school adjustment problems,  is the evolution of more and more long-distance learning technology.   I am right now working on a possible book proposal to write a book to help teachers understand how to use HTML FORMS and CGI scripts,   to develop their course outlines and lesson plans.   Any of the home schooling or long-distance learning technologies might be the answer for lots of these children who just don’t fit the classroom attendance model. I know that this is not much of an answer for right now,  but there is always another approach,  on the horizon.

Response:

In article <312879F3.4…@metvax.metro.msus.edu

, Pat Rummenie

<rumme…@metvax.metro.msus.edu

writes: "handicapping conditions" (I hate that phrase as much as on task and focused) … (we make excuses, are overprotective, don’t push him enough,etc. -and besides that, I know too much!)  Pat

I could have written those words myself, Pat. Sure you haven’t been coming to our meetings??? I wish you a positive meeting (although the school may be on the defensive with advocates present, but hopefully they will also be careful!). I’ve been to enough meetings to last several lifetimes, so you’ve got a sympathetic mom here! So hope it’s a good one, and don’t forget to treat yourself afterwards!!! (I went for a chocolate cream cheese brownie after my last meeting!) Cathi

Response:

Good luck at your meeting.  Know that there is a group of people out here rooting for you.    Judy               Ditto!                       Dr. George

Response:

George- I sure do know about those meetings with the stone faced and tight lipped teachers and the tables like aircraft carriers!!! We have a "team meeting" like this every week! I dread them. You would think I could handle them, because in "my other life" I am a special ed teacher, but when it’s my own child, it’s a whole different world. But I can offer you sympathy, as another parent in a similar boat. At a recent meeting, an administrator told me "Well, he may have Tourette’s, but this is PURPOSEFUL behavior we are talking about."   <Sigh

 I have shared handouts, research articles, books, etc on TS. I’ve

had our physician attend meetings. And here we still are. (Ideas and advice are always welcome, if any of you have any suggestions!) Please keep on posting about your son. And hang in there. Feel free to e-mail if you’d like. Cathi in Vermont In article <4fm7tr$…@newsbf02.news.aol.com

, drgeor1…@aol.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -(DrGeor107a) writes:

I live in a rural town in Massachussetts and have read most of the books on ADD and Tourette’s. My son is on Ritalin ( a low dose because it brings out the ticks) and Nortryptiline.  He suffers from Tourette’s ,

OCD

, ADD , Sensory Integration with touch defensiveness, Dislexia , and has an essential tremor which effects his writing ability. Yet he is

extremely

bright . The school system has responded by keeping him back a year, trying to label him as an emotional problem and basically stonewalling us the whole way. This is a battle my wife and I have been fighting with

them

for years and getting no where.         Most of the hospital centers are great at diagnosing the problem but have no real delivery system for aiding one in dealing with the schools for services. The school makes no effort to inform us of any services for this condition. Our child is the first in the system to have Tourette’s and he is being discriminated against because of it.  I have just hired a professional advocate and a laywer to deal with the school system because I can not take walking into these parent teachers conferences having to face 15 – 20 educators siting stone face and tight lipped around a table that looks more like the deck of an aircraft carrier, saying absolutely nothing other than your child is a slow

learner

and we need to place him in an inclusion class with other slow learners. When told that he is not learning because he is bored out of his mind and that he is two to three grade levels above the other children in math and science and merely has a languaged based processing problem, they fail to respond. We have been going around on this for years , meanwhile my son has become depressed and withdrawn because of the constant teasing and chastisement by the teachers and other students. I am hoping that the advocate can steer us in the right direction , but as with all other professionals we have to wait a month or two because of the back load of people she has to deal with. Got any suggestions?                                     Dr. George

Response:

Dr. George, Many of us can relate to the heartbrake that you and your wife are experiencing.  You need to take action.  Your school is not living in the nineties or even the seventies!  Someone, perhaps your son’s doc. must explain to them that they are doing the worst possible thing for him!  If he’s not being treated by a competent pediatric neurologist, find one fast.  He may very well respond to medication as both of my kids have. The process may be long and difficult but you have to find the right med. or combination.  Insurance companies will reimburse most of your medical expenses.  I don’t know what state you live in, but in most cicilized communities, your school system should be able to help.  You’ve got to get to know the system. Also, stay tuned to here to get some good advise as many of us here have.  You didn’t get into details as far as what paths you have taken, but there are ways to get help for your son.  You and your wife have got to be optimistic.  Good luck.

Response:

     Here is a poem my wife wrote about our son. We are currently experiencing difficulties in the public school system , which has responded to the diagnosis of Tourette’s simply  by hiring an aid to sit behind our son to tell him to stop his ticks everytime he does it. They refuse to believe they are not voluntary behaviors despite being told by a Neurologist.  His current ticks are rocking and picking his nose . Naturally his ticks are becoming worse and the town refuses to respond to his special needs. Meanwhile all our monies are being drained on doctors , lawyers , eductional advocates, with no end in sight. How can this type of ignorance still exist in the nineties?                                      Dr. George                Chris The children call him a tard, life for my son has been hard. Their words burn in his ears. He turns inwards to hide the tears. Rock back and fourth in his pain, people treat him with disdain. They talk to him real slow. It makes him want to get up and go. My son pulls out all his hair, he has to snort, burp,  and swear. If you look at him in the eye makes him feel like he’d die. In sadness he sinks all alone A boy’s heart, heavy as a stone. He’s different from us, can’t you see? He has Tourette’s syndrome and A.D.D. Body and mind in constant motion gentle spirit grows in the commotion. God give him strength I pray, he will be happy someday.                                        by Millie

Response:

    I live in a rural town in Massachussetts and have read most of the books on ADD and Tourette’s. My son is on Ritalin ( a low dose because it brings out the ticks) and Nortryptiline.  He suffers from Tourette’s , OCD , ADD , Sensory Integration with touch defensiveness, Dislexia , and has an essential tremor which effects his writing ability. Yet he is extremely bright . The school system has responded by keeping him back a year, trying to label him as an emotional problem and basically stonewalling us the whole way. This is a battle my wife and I have been fighting with them for years and getting no where.          Most of the hospital centers are great at diagnosing the problem but have no real delivery system for aiding one in dealing with the schools for services. The school makes no effort to inform us of any services for this condition. Our child is the first in the system to have Tourette’s and he is being discriminated against because of it.  I have just hired a professional advocate and a laywer to deal with the school system because I can not take walking into these parent teachers conferences having to face 15 – 20 educators siting stone face and tight lipped around a table that looks more like the deck of an aircraft carrier, saying absolutely nothing other than your child is a slow learner and we need to place him in an inclusion class with other slow learners. When told that he is not learning because he is bored out of his mind and that he is two to three grade levels above the other children in math and science and merely has a languaged based processing problem, they fail to respond. We have been going around on this for years , meanwhile my son has become depressed and withdrawn because of the constant teasing and chastisement by the teachers and other students. I am hoping that the advocate can steer us in the right direction , but as with all other professionals we have to wait a month or two because of the back load of people she has to deal with. Got any suggestions?                                      Dr. George

Response:

I am hoping that the advocate can steer us in the right direction , but as with all other professionals we have to wait a month or two because of the back load of people she has to deal with. Got any suggestions?

The frustration you experience as a result of dealing with the ignorance and hostility of the school system can be overwhelming- I know.  As you anticipate, an impartial outsider who truly understands both TS and the school system may be able to help.  While you are waiting for the advocate to get involved, there are a number of options for you.  Some things to consider are:  enlist the aid of a sympathetic legislator or other community member who has high esteem and/or power in the community (this worked  for us in getting the Committee on Special Education to listen to us); homeschool temporarily until the school makes the necessary educational modifications; give up on public education and opt for either private school or homeschooling.  Meanwhile, make sure you document every contact you have with the school system- keep written records on everything.  It is also necessary to have a doctor who will assist you with the educational problems associated with TS- you need to have a medical report that specifies the behaviors that your son has that are due to a neurological disorder (not emotional) and what educational modifications are necessary because of his neurological disorder.   Good luck-    Judy

Response:

Have you checked out your local office of civil rights (OCR).  As a parent of a special ed. student, you have a tremendous amount of backing.  They will file a lawsuit for you against the school at no cost to you.  But I warn you, teachers/adminstrators don’t like this and will act so coldly towards you that it could backfire.  Darcie

Response:

I live in Eastern Massachusetts. I prefer not give the name of my town because I don’t want my son persecuted any more than he already is. But any suggestions on how to deal with the school systems properly would be greatly appreciated. Feel free to E mail me too.                                Dr. George PS           I posted the poem in the hope that it would strengthen others. My prayers go out for all of you.

Response:

THis year’s

in late March, would be an excellent resource for you, your wife, and some of the educators (if they would go) in your school ;system.< Yes , I am signed up for this, have notified the school , and my newly hired advocate will come as well. She asked me to find a contact person from the Tourette’s support group who deals with school issues near the Worcester area. Can you E mail me who this would be?                            Dr. George

Response:

Ramona writes:

It is not fair to generalize about educators . I have found that they are very willing to learn about Tourett’s and will try to make adaptations in their programs. Of course, not all educators are "open" but neither are they all "closed". Educators are facing many more challenges in the classroom right now. Public support is most important

In the last four years, since my 11 yr old son’s TS symptoms were severe enough to interfere with his classroom behavior, he has had eight teachers (not counting music, art,  health, and gym, which he only has once or twice a week).  Four of them have been accepting, creative, took a positive approach to problem solving, and worked very well with my son. Two of the eight were bordering on abusive (name-calling, ridiculing, screaming) and refused to change their behavior.  The other two are misinformed  defensive and antagonistic, but are trying to be open-minded and are still approachable.   I don’t think anyone is saying all teachers are bad.  In our case, it has been 50%; that is a whopping high proportion.  Fair, you say?  In our district, the median teacher’s salary is $65,000.  These teachers have tenure, unlimited sick leave with pay,  health insurance completely paid for by the school district,  generous retirement plan.  Sorry, I do not support these teachers- they’re getting an awful lot for not doing their job.  BTW, I think the other 50% deserve everything they are getting and more.    Judy Simon

Response: