Question:

Hi! Sorry about all those bogus Boytko (or whatever) responses you got. A very good suggestion was given to you: to make sure you don’t have sleep apena, and that your asthma isn’t bothering you when you sleep. I would be wary of the theophylline. There are much better drugs for your asthma. Are you on flovent 220 at least 2 times a day? If not, I"d increase that and dump the theophylline. I had *severe* side effects from the theophylline that lasted for years (because I took it for years) and it really affected my sleep. Perhaps try singulair or accolate or something. If you are taking all those medications for asthma you should be seeing a specialist, not just a doctor: and they might be able to help you further with your problems. I personally also had similar side effects from the serevent, but I do know that many others tolerate it well. Intal did nothing for me, and is usually not an "as needed" drug- you have to take it all the time for it to have any affect, right? I found that Intal (and Tilade) actually made my exercise induced asthma *worse* because it irritated me and didn’t help. Also, with all the above, do try to start an exercise program and certainly improve your diet. Just because your diet hasn’t changed in 10 years doesn’t mean *you* haven’t.  It can make a big difference in how you feel energetically, and makes your asthma better too.(the exercise part).  It might also help you sleep longer- 8 hours is a bit more normal. -j – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am taking Flovent, Serevent, Albuterol, Intal (when needed), and Theophylline. Ever since I’ve been taking them faithfully (around 2 years), I feel so tired….even when I’m not doing anything. My diet is kinda lousy; yet, it hasn’t changed 10 years. I averaged six hours of sleep. Don’t have a strenous job. Rarely exercise, but I do walk alot! Has anyone experienced fatique while on medications? If do, what was the culprit? Thanks.. * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

writes <snip do try to start an exercise program

The original post states they walk ‘a lot’.  If that means a brisk walk (e.g. raises the pulse) for half an hour, three or more times a week I would classify that as exercise.  IMHO Walking is underrated as exercise but can be really good if it’s on unmade footpaths (much better that roads or gym floors as each step is slightly different) and up and down hills.  And it doesn’t carry dangers (or they are greatly reduced) of over-use injuries, and on paths away from roads the air is better and the dangers from traffic go away. And walking is weight-bearing which helps prevent osteoporosis – something swimming doesn’t do though weights, gym works & cycling do. <snip — Surfer!

Response:

Mark: I’m 76 and for over 2 years have persistent (without attacks) old age asthma. In times of remission, all breathing parameters are OK. I’ve tried daily 20 min. exercises with a restricted air flow device for about 2 months……

Mark, I’m not sure what you expected this device to do for you.  Just because you make it harder for yourself to breathe does’nt mean you get less air.  Your respiratory center paces your breathing for you and it will make you breathe in such a way as to attain a particular CO2 level in your blood.  Putting a restrictive device in line with your respiaratory tract isn’t going to change anything. What you need to do is practice breathing in such a way as to sustain, over  a prolonged period of time,  a small shortage of air.  You need to do this often. Unless you actually feel like you’re not getting enough air while you’re doing this,  it’s not going to help your respiratory center accommodate to higher levels of CO2. If you want to knock Buteyko by all means, but make sure you’ve actually done the exercises properly before you do. …. with no effect, and then had the idea that asthmatics don’t need Buteyko, since they have plenty of hypoventilation, with (as follows from medical research) some positive results claimed by Buteyko (e.g., less sclerosis).

In early stage asthma CO2 is low, because of hyperventilation.  When asthma is very sever you get to a point where the lungs are so damaged that CO2 can’t get out and Oxygen can’t get in.  You’re right, here the asthmatic is hypoventilated from the point of view of the blood gases.  But there is a state in between where blood CO2 appears to be normal and Oxygen is low.  What happens  here is as follows.  As the disease progresses part of the lungs becomes so badly blocked that it stops being ventilated all together, but it still gets perfused with blood.   That part of the lung which is still functioning becomes hoplessly overventilated, as can be seen from ETCO2 (End tidal  CO2) studies.  The blood that leaves the lungs to get into the arteries therefore contains a mixture of blood from the overventilated and underventilated areas, which means that the CO2 may appear to be normal.  But the CO2 component from the functioning part is very low, and this is what causes it to go into bronchospasm.  So we take Ventolin to open it up.  But that does’nt actually cure anything.  At this stage Buteyko alone won’t help either.  You need to supplement with steroids until you can get your breathing under control and then gradually reverse the process by deliberate hypoventilation.  As you can imagine, by this stage this can be a very difficult process. Sticking a marble in your nostril won’t solve your problem. Peter Kolb Free information provided by grateful ex-asthmatics     http://www.wt.com.au/~pkolb/buteyko.htm

Response:

If you want to knock Buteyko by all means, but make sure you’ve actually done the exercises properly before you do.

So you are saying that I should try something that is dangerous and stupid before I warn others about it? Why don’t you jump off a cliff and then tell us whether or not it is dangerous? In early stage asthma CO2 is low, because of hyperventilation.  When asthma is very sever you get to a point where the lungs are so damaged that CO2 can’t get out and Oxygen can’t get in.

What are you talking about?  You really need to learn something about asthma instead of relying on the stuff the buteyko promoters fabricated. No electrons were harmed in the posting of this message.

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Can I just mention that I tried Buteyko after seeing a documentary on the TV and found a course run by Sasha Stalmatski in York UK in Oct 99. I was on quite a lot of medication at the time, Flixotide, Ventolin, Atrovent, Serevent, Slo Phyllin etc. and before starting the course was extremely tired and could hardly walk upstairs.  I found the course very difficult but persevered.  One year on and I am only on Flixotide and Ventolin and although I visit hospital as an out patient regularly for bronchial/chest infections my asthma is under control and from having an asthma attack regularly every night 12 months ago I do not have any attacks at all now, I do have problems when I have a chest infection but the breathing exercises I learnt on the course have been very helpful and last year I had an attack of pluerisy and used the shallow breathing as I was rushed to hospital and it certainly worked for me.  By the way I have no medical training whatsoever so I cannot give medical advice it certainly didn’t cure me but it has made my life better, I can at least get up stairs now, I haven’t progressed to cycling yet but I am working on it.  I am a middle aged lady and able to do a full time job even if I do occasionally have to have time off for chest infections. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you want to knock Buteyko by all means, but make sure you’ve actually done the exercises properly before you do. So you are saying that I should try something that is dangerous and stupid before I warn others about it? Why don’t you jump off a cliff and then tell us whether or not it is dangerous? In early stage asthma CO2 is low, because of hyperventilation.  When asthma is very sever you get to a point where the lungs are so damaged that CO2 can’t get out and Oxygen can’t get in. What are you talking about?  You really need to learn something about asthma instead of relying on the stuff the buteyko promoters fabricated. No electrons were harmed in the posting of this message.

– Christine Varney Dept of Physics University of York YORK  YO10 5DD  UK tel: 44 (0) 1904 432261 fax: 44 (0) 1904 432214

Response:

I am taking Flovent, Serevent, Albuterol, Intal (when needed), and Theophylline. Ever since I’ve been taking them faithfully (around 2 years), I feel so tired….even when I’m not doing anything. My diet is kinda lousy; yet, it hasn’t changed 10 years. I averaged six hours of sleep. Don’t have a strenous job. Rarely exercise, but I do walk alot! Has anyone experienced fatique while on medications? If do, what was the culprit?

I find fatigue is the product of any single one or combination of the following: 1)      that time of the month 2)      being ill 3)      not getting enough sleep – I usually need 8-9 hours a night 4)      emotional upset like when I had to have two cats put to sleep last year – each time the response was to sleep for a couple of weeks, 16 hours a day or more at first. 5)      stress at work 6)      boredom 7)      prevarication – shall I do some decorating or get another ours sleep?      lack of exercise 9)      not drinking enough water especially if it’s hot – I’ve had a few night cramps 10)     eating too much too late – full stomach is not ideal before bed 11)     I go to sleep fine if I drink too much (e.g. more than 2-3 glasses wine) but then have disturbed dreams As you might imagine I’m a good sleeper!  Luckily too much time in bed gives me a bad back so there’s no danger (at the moment) of my developing a 24-hour per day habit. Before I got my medication (Pulmicort, and inhaled steroid) I *was* chronically tired due to lack of sleep and poor quality sleep.  Starting them made a new woman of me.  But I can’t find a new man to match! So I’ve got some new cats! so check (with your doctor) your asthma medication is working properly – especially at night.  When I’m bad I start snoring and give myself disturbed dreams and intermittent waking especially if I fall asleep with pillows as they prop up my head and close the airway (and are bad for my back & neck).  If you don’t have a peak flow meter get one and use it, drawing a chart of the morning & evening results (or put them in Excel!).  It should be pretty level – if it’s down in the mornings and responds to Intal it suggests you are possibly under-medicated in the steroid department. Also ask your partner (if you have one) how you sleep.  Lots of snoring could be part of, or an indication of, the problem.  Especially if you wake yourself up, or wake because you have almost stopped breathing (sleep apnoea). Good Luck PS Peter Kolb seems to reckon that everything is caused by CHVS. — Surfer!

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am taking Flovent, Serevent, Albuterol, Intal (when needed), and Theophylline. Ever since I’ve been taking them faithfully (around 2 years), I feel so tired….even when I’m not doing anything. My diet is kinda lousy; yet, it hasn’t changed 10 years. I averaged six hours of sleep. Don’t have a strenous job. Rarely exercise, but I do walk alot! Has anyone experienced fatique while on medications? If do, what was the culprit? Thanks.. Hello I can’t say whether or not your medications cause fatigue,  but what I can tell you is that fatigue, listlessness and inability to exercise are some of the very many symptoms of Chronic hyperventilation syndrome (CHVS).  This was first discovered by American Field Surgeon DaCosta in 1870 when he descibed this condition sufffered by American Soldiers under combat stress during the civil war.  While the mechanism by which such stress can cause chronic hyperventilation is well known and understood,  few doctors even seem to be aware of its existence.  This is in spite of the fact that prevalence in the community is between 6 and 11%  (References  have been given on an earlier occasion). There is a very logical treatment which has been developed in Russia for CHVS.  They found it so successful (and quite dramatically so) in the treatment of asthma,  that it has been brought to the west largely as a therapy that reverses the asthma condition.  But any of the symptoms of CHVS can be successfully treated with this therapy. Unfortunately, unlike with conventional medicine,  there are no magic bullets.  Buteyko therapy requires a lot of work and a lot of time, but at least it enables you to get your health back.   Many people have found that there is sufficient information on our web site to help you get rid of your asthma. Peter Kolb BSc(Eng),MSc(Med),CPEng(Biomed) BIOMEDICAL ENGINEER Free information provided by grateful ex-asthmatics

Mark: I’m 76 and for over 2 years have persistent (without attacks) old age asthma. In times of remission, all breathing parameters are OK. I’ve tried daily 20 min. exercises with a restricted air flow device for about 2 months – with no effect, and then had the idea that asthmatics don’t need Buteyko, since they have plenty of hypoventilation, with (as follows from medical research) some positive results claimed by Buteyko (e.g., less sclerosis). – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –    http://www.wt.com.au/~pkolb/buteyko.htm

Response:

I am taking Flovent, Serevent, Albuterol, Intal (when needed), and Theophylline. Ever since I’ve been taking them faithfully (around 2 years), I feel so tired….even when I’m not doing anything. My diet is kinda lousy; yet, it hasn’t changed 10 years. I averaged six hours of sleep. Don’t have a strenous job. Rarely exercise, but I do walk alot! Has anyone experienced fatique while on medications? If do, what was the culprit? Thanks.. * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

I am taking Flovent, Serevent, Albuterol, Intal (when needed), and Theophylline. Ever since I’ve been taking them faithfully (around 2 years), I feel so tired….even when I’m not doing anything. My diet is kinda lousy; yet, it hasn’t changed 10 years. I averaged six hours of sleep. Don’t have a strenous job. Rarely exercise, but I do walk alot! Has anyone experienced fatique while on medications? If do, what was the culprit? Thanks..

Hello I can’t say whether or not your medications cause fatigue,  but what I can tell you is that fatigue, listlessness and inability to exercise are some of the very many symptoms of Chronic hyperventilation syndrome (CHVS).  This was first discovered by American Field Surgeon DaCosta in 1870 when he descibed this condition sufffered by American Soldiers under combat stress during the civil war.  While the mechanism by which such stress can cause chronic hyperventilation is well known and understood,  few doctors even seem to be aware of its existence.  This is in spite of the fact that prevalence in the community is between 6 and 11%  (References  have been given on an earlier occasion).   There is a very logical treatment which has been developed in Russia for CHVS.  They found it so successful (and quite dramatically so) in the treatment of asthma,  that it has been brought to the west largely as a therapy that reverses the asthma condition.  But any of the symptoms of CHVS can be successfully treated with this therapy. Unfortunately, unlike with conventional medicine,  there are no magic bullets.  Buteyko therapy requires a lot of work and a lot of time, but at least it enables you to get your health back.   Many people have found that there is sufficient information on our web site to help you get rid of your asthma. Peter Kolb BSc(Eng),MSc(Med),CPEng(Biomed) BIOMEDICAL ENGINEER Free information provided by grateful ex-asthmatics     http://www.wt.com.au/~pkolb/buteyko.htm

Response:

I am taking Flovent, Serevent, Albuterol, Intal (when needed), and Theophylline. Ever since I’ve been taking them faithfully (around 2 years), I feel so tired….even when I’m not doing anything. My diet is kinda lousy; yet, it hasn’t changed 10 years. I averaged six hours of sleep. Don’t have a strenous job. Rarely exercise, but I do walk alot!

Try sleeping an extra 1/2 hour.  Most people do not get the amount of sleep they need. No electrons were harmed in the posting of this message.

Response:

I can’t say whether or not your medications cause fatigue,  but what I can tell you is that fatigue, listlessness and inability to exercise are some of the very many symptoms of Chronic hyperventilation syndrome (CHVS).

Can you name something that is not a symptom of this imaginary ailment? BTW, can you provide any current medical references that support your diagnosis? And how about providing your qualifications to dispense medical advice? No electrons were harmed in the posting of this message.

Response:

Question:

Has anyone ordered from here? I am instrested in the Kramer that is $179 (I forgot the model and am to lazy to load up the browser I has 2 "quad rail" humbukers and 1 double rail humbuker in the middle. Also comes with a Floyd Rose tremolo and some kick ass tuners. So, any good? Or has anyone ordered from their yet? Thanks Nicola

I’m interested too… it’d be nice to have a backup guitar with a floyd for gigs if my JEM breaks a string… *sigh* why can’t I be endorsed for JEMs?   Hehehe…  Where is the company located?  *crosses fingers* please say Canada… -=Devon Lougheed=- "if politics is the blind leading the blind, entertainment is the f**ked up leading the hypnotised" to reply remove NOSPAM from email adress

Response:

I bought the same guitar your looking at. I love it! Right now I own two Les Pauls, a JB player PRS copy, and a Cort Flying V. This guitar doesn’t sound like any of them. The sound is close to a Jackson or Ibanez but a little beefier. I play mainly hard rock in the vain of Ratt and it does great for what I need it for. I haven’t played out with it yet but I’ve recorded with it and it did great!! No Noise. I have a Line 6 Flextone 300 watt head through a Peavy 412e cab. So just about any guitar would sound great to me!! It will depend a lot on what type of setup you have and what style of music you play. The guitar stays in tune providing you have it setup correctly. It seems like it will hold up against the test of a musicians time!! My experience with music yo was very good. I placed my order and got a receipt number right away, then a thank you for your order the next day as well as a confirmation of shipment with a UPS tracking number. It was here in 6 days. These Krammers are made by Gibson and are shipped from the Gibson factory in Nash. Tenn. You can email Gibson for more info on the Krammer line. (since they are real quite about it online) Visit www.gibson.com Good Luck Laura

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Has anyone ordered from here? I am instrested in the Kramer that is $179 (I forgot the model and am to lazy to load up the browser I has 2 "quad rail" humbukers and 1 double rail humbuker in the middle. Also comes with a Floyd Rose tremolo and some kick ass tuners. So, any good? Or has anyone ordered from their yet? Thanks Nicola

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I bought the same guitar your looking at. I love it! Right now I own two Les Pauls, a JB player PRS copy, and a Cort Flying V. This guitar doesn’t sound like any of them. The sound is close to a Jackson or Ibanez but a little beefier. I play mainly hard rock in the vain of Ratt and it does great for what I need it for. I haven’t played out with it yet but I’ve recorded with it and it did great!! No Noise. I have a Line 6 Flextone 300 watt head through a Peavy 412e cab. So just about any guitar would sound great to me!! It will depend a lot on what type of setup you have and what style of music you play. The guitar stays in tune providing you have it setup correctly. It seems like it will hold up against the test of a musicians time!! My experience with music yo was very good. I placed my order and got a receipt number right away, then a thank you for your order the next day as well as a confirmation of shipment with a UPS tracking number. It was here in 6 days. These Krammers are made by Gibson and are shipped from the Gibson factory in Nash. Tenn. You can email Gibson for more info on the Krammer line. (since they are real quite about it online) Visit www.gibson.com Good Luck

Just that everyone understands, the new Kramer Strikers may be "shipped" from Gibson’s factory in Nashville TN but they are made in Korea. I’m still looking for someone here to post a review of the guitar. I’m looking for quality and playability.  I have to be honest in that I am intrested in picking one up (can’t beat the price) but the one thing that holds me back in the "rail" pickups that the guitar comes with. The MusicYo site states that the rail pickup’s have a 2/4 configuration where you can pull up on the tone knob to turn on all four pickup rails.  The problem for me is if I don’t like the pickups it doens’t seem like it would be very easy to just replace them with better pickups. The 2/4 pickup selector switch may have to be replaced as well.  I have played the new Kramer Baretta’s with the rail pickups and I wasn’t that impressed. The Jackson DK’s sounded much better (with the Duncan design pickups).   So can anyone who has purchased a new Kramer Striker from MusicYo post an in-depth review of the guitar (quility, sound, opinion of the "rail" pickups etc..). Regards, — — Matt Costanza Austin, TX USA

Response:

Very good company for their guitars, great service. For strings, give www.stringsdirect.co.uk a try – they are also apparently excellent but have far cheaper delivery costs. Stu

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, Has anybody else had any dealings with MusicYo.com ? I logged on a couple of days ago to look at buying a few items, which initially looked good on pricing. However when it actually came to delivery costs, sheesh, it worked out more expensive than buying it from my local retailer ! I am based in the UK, and delivery for 1 (or 10) sets of strings worked out at 39.85 dollars standard delivery ( from the European warehouse) or $97.13 dollars for express delivery ( from the European warehouse) – I nearly fell off my chair ….. Any feedback mush appreciated Rgds Gary

Response:

Hi, Has anybody else had any dealings with MusicYo.com ? I logged on a couple of days ago to look at buying a few items, which initially looked good on pricing. However when it actually came to delivery costs, sheesh, it worked out more expensive than buying it from my local retailer ! I am based in the UK, and delivery for 1 (or 10) sets of strings worked out at 39.85 dollars standard delivery ( from the European warehouse) or $97.13 dollars for express delivery ( from the European warehouse) – I nearly fell off my chair ….. Any feedback mush appreciated

I purchased a guitar (Steinberger Spirit GT-Pro), gigbag, etc. from them.  I’ve been very pleased with their service, incl. customer service & tech support (I used email for both). Dave Morgenlender

Response:

I’ve dealt with them pretty extensively and have been happy with the instruments I purchased. I have purchased strings from them, but since I live in the US, shipping cost is not a major concern. My guess is you might be better off purchasing strings locally as suggested, unless they are the sole source (like for my Steinberger). If these are regular strings, I’d recommend also checking out musicians friend or American Musical Supply for bulk discounts and shipping. If you’r not concerned with brand names, they may have generic bulk strings you may purchase. Another possibility with Music Yo is to contact them to see if they will ship via your preffered shipper. They might be willing to do it for you. Contact is by email only, however, they have responded to some requests in the past and have been a pleasure to deal with. Toby

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Has anybody else had any dealings with MusicYo.com ? I logged on a couple of days ago to look at buying a few items, which initially looked good on pricing. However when it actually came to delivery costs, sheesh, it worked out more expensive than buying it from my local retailer ! I am based in the UK, and delivery for 1 (or 10) sets of strings worked out at 39.85 dollars standard delivery ( from the European warehouse) or $97.13 dollars for express delivery ( from the European warehouse) – I nearly fell off my chair ….. Well, I don’t know about their shipping prices on small items like Christmas gift last year…….but I think if I was going to actually buy anything from them, it would be something like a guitar or amp and not strings.  Is there a reason you can’t go to a local store for strings? Charles — Head Papershuffler Paper Airplane Division (currently assigned to the Rubber Band Flight Dynamics project)

Response:

Hi, Has anybody else had any dealings with MusicYo.com ? I logged on a couple of days ago to look at buying a few items, which initially looked good on pricing. However when it actually came to delivery costs, sheesh, it worked out more expensive than buying it from my local retailer ! I am based in the UK, and delivery for 1 (or 10) sets of strings worked out at 39.85 dollars standard delivery ( from the European warehouse) or $97.13 dollars for express delivery ( from the European warehouse) – I nearly fell off my chair

I noticed the UK prices are much higher. I have no idea about tariffs or costs in the US. The prices in the US are lower and you can use the US postal service to lower the delivery costs – something a lot of places are now using after the tech bubble collapsed and freebies and subsidies went out the window as wel las the feeling that online sales was the future of retailing. Fuel costs also rose with the rise of oil prices causing a rise a shipping prices. I got my bass delviered I think for $12 or so by the postal service and it got here in about a week about the same as UPS which would have cost $30-40.  

Response:

Has anybody else had any dealings with MusicYo.com ? I logged on a couple of days ago to look at buying a few items, which initially looked good on pricing. However when it actually came to delivery costs, sheesh, it worked out more expensive than buying it from my local retailer ! I am based in the UK, and delivery for 1 (or 10) sets of strings worked out at 39.85 dollars standard delivery ( from the European warehouse) or $97.13 dollars for express delivery ( from the European warehouse) – I nearly fell off my chair …..

Well, I don’t know about their shipping prices on small items like gift last year…….but I think if I was going to actually buy anything from them, it would be something like a guitar or amp and not strings.  Is there a reason you can’t go to a local store for strings? Charles — Head Papershuffler Paper Airplane Division (currently assigned to the Rubber Band Flight Dynamics project)

Response:

Hi, Has anybody else had any dealings with MusicYo.com ? I logged on a couple of days ago to look at buying a few items, which initially looked good on pricing. However when it actually came to delivery costs, sheesh, it worked out more expensive than buying it from my local retailer ! I am based in the UK, and delivery for 1 (or 10) sets of strings worked out at 39.85 dollars standard delivery ( from the European warehouse) or $97.13 dollars for express delivery ( from the European warehouse) – I nearly fell off my chair ….. Any feedback mush appreciated Rgds Gary

Response:

Question:

Let’s see; the OP said specifically that the onset of the increased symptoms was directly related to irrigation..

One can’t tell reliably what is related to what just by sequence of occurrences.   Better to look for underlying factors to avoid mixing up triggers with causes. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

. Odd that his thyroid would slow to a crawl each time he irrigated, eh?  :-)

Response:

So you’re saying that irrigation is the trigger of a metabolic slowdown?

No I am not.

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On 12/5/05 1:23 PM, in article 1133817823.808457.32…@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com, "dougred…@gmail.com" <dougred…@gmail.com

wrote: I am not using bottled water, just a PUR filter on my faucet.  Should I use distilled water with the Breathe Ease XL?

Unless your tap water is especially bad,regular PUR filter or any bottled water is OK with Breathe.ease XL

Response:

On 12/5/05 2:03 PM, in article d0e9p15e7ofpv4tf2ge3smtfv4p4umc…@4ax.com, – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -"Don Brady" <dbr…@pobox.com

wrote: On 5 Dec 2005 13:21:29 -0800, dougred…@gmail.com wrote: Don Brady wrote: Really! Hmm I wonder if there could possibly be a metabolic or immune status issue then. This is entirely possible; I am actually a hypopituitary patient.  My endocrinologist Dr. Te Friedman is actually at Cedars Sinaii where Dr. Grossan is.  I’ve been planning to make an appointment with Dr. Grossan the next time I see Dr. Friedman. In a nutshell – Dr. Friedman is about as thorough an endocrinologist as can be found anywhere, and he’s gotten all of my hormones into the mid to high normal range that were low (which was most of them). Do you know what your TSH (thyroid) numeric value is?  It is a blood test. If possible, the numeric value is desirable rather than a conclusion as refernce ranges vary and are being revised. I don’t recall TSH or T3, T4 measurements but at the time I was on 88mcg of T4 which Dr. Friedman raised to 125mcg, and based on a later test, back down to 117mcg. Also I would check fasting B12 level and white blood cell morphology. I can’t answer either of these at the moment, although I do take B12 supplements. Are you tired all the time? Yes indeed.  I am not sure if this is due to some yet to be found hormonal issue related to my pituitary (head trauma is what caused the damage) or if this is sleep related.  I suspect sleep, as there HAVE been times when I have slept well and noticed a definite improvement. But, it appears to be dependent on both possible nocturnal asthma being under control, AND clear nasal breathing.  Nasal CPAP was worthless as I had predicted considering how closed off my nasal passages are.  You can’t force air through pinholes. I have a CPAP machine and I’m considering trying it with an OPAP (oral) mask as it seems at the moment at least, mouth breathing at night is my best and possibly only option. Ok that is what I suspected – there are some underlying metabolic/hormonal factiors here.   You are right on top of them though. Lack of sleep also will cause inflammation through the body, so it could be that alone. I  think that it is among those factors that the cause of your sinusitis lies…..

One of the important findings re sleep apnea is the need to take antioxidant vitamin supplements due to the accumulation of oxidative products during the apneic periods.

Response:

I should note as well that between my nose and lower airways, I get sleep apnea as a result.  When I use Advair and the Afrin / Singulair / Claritin nasal spray before bed, I sleep better than I have ever slept.  If I only use Advair and no nasal spray I still have restless sleep and visa versa.

Response:

On 1 Dec 2005 16:52:44 -0800, dougred…@gmail.com wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Here is my history: – Allergy shots for several years – Septoplasty & turbinectomy 3 years ago – Using oral claritin and singulair before bed – tried all the various nasal sprays to no avail – tried irrigation both isotonic and hypertonic and it didn’t help much – allergist had me try Afrin a few times just to see what would happen. It did almost nothing. After reading this board for awhile I tried concocting my own spray. First I tried saline + Singulair + Benedryl and this spray seemed to work a bit, but was still disappointing Next, I tried 1/2 oz Afrin, mixed with 30mg crushed Singulair and 3 crushed Claritin tablets.  This actually works pretty well. Next, I’m going to try saline (Breathe Ease) 1/2 ounce + 3 crushed Singulair tabs and 3 crushed Claritin tabs to see if it will have the same effect WITHOUT the Afrin. My question is: 1) am I using too much of the Claritin or Singulair and 2) could I mix these with a cortisone spray instead? Also, I believe the spray I tried mixing in Benadryl, I used too little Benadryl.  I wonder if I should try Benadryl instead of Claritin at a higher dose? I only use the Afrin combination once a day, before bed.  This helps my sleep a LOT.  I clearly have a real problem breathing through the nose and also some twitchy lower airways (and possible nocturnal asthma) and I’m hoping to come up with a spray combination that I can use several times per day without worrying about resistance or making the problem worse.  I’m thinking: 1) Use a corisone + Singulair + Claritin spray 2) Start hypertonic irrigation again with Breathe EaseXL twice per day 3) Hopefully, combining #1 and #2 will keep my nose clear. 4) Continue allergy shots and hope that eventually, they cure my nose ailments. All comments welcome.

Afrin is often (always?) addictive if used for over a few days so it is not recommended to  use it continually. Some of the others are antihistamines.  They can be ok but can tend to dry out your sinuses too much which can limit the drainage needed to keep them clear. Yes this stops the irritating drainage onto the turbinates but may have its own price long term.  I would get a CT scan to make sure that sinusitis is not the underlying problem (if not done already) and that you would not make it worse by preventing drainage with too much drying. The steroid spray has few problems. I’d bet you are allergic or sensitive to dust or mold in your work or home and that if you could totally clear that up (very hard to do), that might eliminate the need for all of these medicines. Meanwhile  and get whatever medication combo you are taking signed off on by your allergist.  As long as you do the latter, then you are a lot safer than totally winging it on your own…

Response:

On 12/1/05 7:30 PM, in article 7uevo1tgdobbcic79n1eo220jqvevb9…@4ax.com, – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -"Don Brady" <dbr…@pobox.com

wrote: On 1 Dec 2005 16:52:44 -0800, dougred…@gmail.com wrote: Here is my history: – Allergy shots for several years – Septoplasty & turbinectomy 3 years ago – Using oral claritin and singulair before bed – tried all the various nasal sprays to no avail – tried irrigation both isotonic and hypertonic and it didn’t help much – allergist had me try Afrin a few times just to see what would happen. It did almost nothing. After reading this board for awhile I tried concocting my own spray. First I tried saline + Singulair + Benedryl and this spray seemed to work a bit, but was still disappointing Next, I tried 1/2 oz Afrin, mixed with 30mg crushed Singulair and 3 crushed Claritin tablets.  This actually works pretty well. Next, I’m going to try saline (Breathe Ease) 1/2 ounce + 3 crushed Singulair tabs and 3 crushed Claritin tabs to see if it will have the same effect WITHOUT the Afrin. My question is: 1) am I using too much of the Claritin or Singulair and 2) could I mix these with a cortisone spray instead? Also, I believe the spray I tried mixing in Benadryl, I used too little Benadryl.  I wonder if I should try Benadryl instead of Claritin at a higher dose? I only use the Afrin combination once a day, before bed.  This helps my sleep a LOT.  I clearly have a real problem breathing through the nose and also some twitchy lower airways (and possible nocturnal asthma) and I’m hoping to come up with a spray combination that I can use several times per day without worrying about resistance or making the problem worse.  I’m thinking: 1) Use a corisone + Singulair + Claritin spray 2) Start hypertonic irrigation again with Breathe EaseXL twice per day 3) Hopefully, combining #1 and #2 will keep my nose clear. 4) Continue allergy shots and hope that eventually, they cure my nose ailments. All comments welcome. Afrin is often (always?) addictive if used for over a few days so it is not recommended to  use it continually. Some of the others are antihistamines.  They can be ok but can tend to dry out your sinuses too much which can limit the drainage needed to keep them clear. Yes this stops the irritating drainage onto the turbinates but may have its own price long term.  I would get a CT scan to make sure that sinusitis is not the underlying problem (if not done already) and that you would not make it worse by preventing drainage with too much drying. The steroid spray has few problems. I’d bet you are allergic or sensitive to dust or mold in your work or home and that if you could totally clear that up (very hard to do), that might eliminate the need for all of these medicines. Meanwhile  and get whatever medication combo you are taking signed off on by your allergist.  As long as you do the latter, then you are a lot safer than totally winging it on your own…

Your are out there all alone, no one can guide you because no one has studied this. Merck spoke of a singular nasal spray some years ago but … I don’t know what the solubility of these products are. In theory you can open the benadryl capsule and use that. The coating of the claritin is a problem. Let us know how your experiment works out. If it does, get a patent.

Response:

Here is my history: – Allergy shots for several years – Septoplasty & turbinectomy 3 years ago – Using oral claritin and singulair before bed – tried all the various nasal sprays to no avail – tried irrigation both isotonic and hypertonic and it didn’t help much – allergist had me try Afrin a few times just to see what would happen.  It did almost nothing. After reading this board for awhile I tried concocting my own spray. First I tried saline + Singulair + Benedryl and this spray seemed to work a bit, but was still disappointing Next, I tried 1/2 oz Afrin, mixed with 30mg crushed Singulair and 3 crushed Claritin tablets.  This actually works pretty well. Next, I’m going to try saline (Breathe Ease) 1/2 ounce + 3 crushed Singulair tabs and 3 crushed Claritin tabs to see if it will have the same effect WITHOUT the Afrin. My question is: 1) am I using too much of the Claritin or Singulair and 2) could I mix these with a cortisone spray instead? Also, I believe the spray I tried mixing in Benadryl, I used too little Benadryl.  I wonder if I should try Benadryl instead of Claritin at a higher dose? I only use the Afrin combination once a day, before bed.  This helps my sleep a LOT.  I clearly have a real problem breathing through the nose and also some twitchy lower airways (and possible nocturnal asthma) and I’m hoping to come up with a spray combination that I can use several times per day without worrying about resistance or making the problem worse.  I’m thinking: 1) Use a corisone + Singulair + Claritin spray 2) Start hypertonic irrigation again with Breathe EaseXL twice per day 3) Hopefully, combining #1 and #2 will keep my nose clear. 4) Continue allergy shots and hope that eventually, they cure my nose ailments. All comments welcome. Doug

Response:

On 12/5/05 11:52 AM, in article 4569p19iud5l544s8bc1ju1hlpbv5cv…@4ax.com, – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -"Don Brady" <dbr…@pobox.com

wrote: On 5 Dec 2005 11:39:13 -0800, dougred…@gmail.com wrote: Don and Susan, thank you for your comments about Afrin. I have found unfortunately that my nose becomes "addicted" to Afrin even using it only once per day, before bed.  However, it is my understanding that it is a preservative in Afrin that causes this and not the actual active ingredient??? Why on EARTH would they not change their formula if that is the case, or why wouldn’t a competitor release a generic with a preservative that does not have this problem?? Actually I think it is the active ingredient but I am sure that others will claify. As far as cleaning up my area goes, before having to move for work reasons I had a brand new house built with all hardwood flooring, and the best Consumer Reports whole-house Aprilaire air purifier.  I also had top of the line HEPA room units in my bedroom and my office.  All pillows / bedding allergen proofed.  There literally was NOWHERE for any allergen to be in those rooms.  They may have well have been Intel cleanrooms.  This didn’t help, either Really!   Hmm I wonder if there could possibly be a metabolic or immune status issue then. Do you know what your TSH (thyroid) numeric value is?  It is a blood test. If possible, the numeric value is desirable rather than a conclusion as refernce ranges vary and are being revised. Also I would check fasting B12 level and white blood cell morphology. Are you tired all the time? Are you on any kind of fad diet or do you have major digestive problems?

one way to break the afrin addicition is to dilute the afrin with saline 1/2 and 1/2 each week.

Response:

On 5 Dec 2005 19:01:27 -0800, dougred…@gmail.com wrote:

Don Brady wrote: Ok that is what I suspected – there are some underlying metabolic/hormonal factiors here.   You are right on top of them though. Lack of sleep also will cause inflammation through the body, so it could be that alone. I  think that it is among those factors that the cause of your sinusitis lies….. Unfortunately if that is the case I don’t know what can be done, as all of my hormone levels are now at least midrange and in most cases towards high normal.

If it was only recently then it will take time for all layers of the skin etc. to fully recover. But the sleep angle is the other one I referred to.

Response:

Don Brady wrote:

Ok that is what I suspected – there are some underlying metabolic/hormonal factiors here.   You are right on top of them though. Lack of sleep also will cause inflammation through the body, so it could be that alone. I  think that it is among those factors that the cause of your sinusitis lies…..

Unfortunately if that is the case I don’t know what can be done, as all of my hormone levels are now at least midrange and in most cases towards high normal.

Response:

I just nuke the filtered tap water to kill any microbes that might be present.  Your experience sounds like irrigating is making your sinuses worse (I don’t think you’re withdrawing from antigens) and it made me wonder if you were shooting pathogens up your nose. It sounds as if that’s a strong possibility.

How much time is required to ensure that all microbes are killed? I assume just bring the water to a boil and let it cool?

Response:

It appears he’s irrigating with unsterile water.  That one’s a lot more obvious and easy to fix.

As I said, I do not agee that it is more obvious.  I happen to think it is extremely unlikely that mere unsterile water matters much.   Lots of people go swimming every day.  

I’m interested in your metabolism theory; do you have cites or some material that indicates this may be the case?  Also, what do you mean by slow?  Are you referring to thyroid status, insulin resistance, or something else?

The most common cause of slow metabolism is low thyroid (which is extremely common!. Here’s one reference: http://health.yahoo.com/centers/allergy/154 "Non-allergic rhinitis may also be triggered by pregnancy, thyroid problems, stress or by certain medications. These triggers of non-allergic rhinitis do not cause your body’s immune system to react. Thus they are not an allergen. But they may still irritate your mucous membranes, causing inflammation and your rhinitis symptoms." Really it is no surprise – low thyroid has effects throughout the body and on the skin.  How could it not have the potential to affect the linings of the sinuses and nose also? These matters are covered in any book on endocrinology. As to sleep, it  also profoundly affects natural cortisol levels.  Inflammation throughout the body will result from lack of enough sleep.   The worst thing is that if this is the case in an individual, the sinuses are just one marker. Elevated inflammation will increase the risk of heart disease also amd many other diseases. This is covered in many recent articles on sleep. My sinuses are now getting back close to what they were right after surgery (very good) just by getting *lots* more sleep. In me, sleep is *far* more signficant than streroid sprays.   My thyroid is also bodferline low (TSH is borderline high) but in me it is part;y caused by low caloric intake, which is not too hard to remedy…..

Response:

I am not using bottled water, just a PUR filter on my faucet.  Should I use distilled water with the Breathe Ease XL?

Response:

On 5 Dec 2005 13:21:29 -0800, dougred…@gmail.com wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Don Brady wrote: Really! Hmm I wonder if there could possibly be a metabolic or immune status issue then. This is entirely possible; I am actually a hypopituitary patient.  My endocrinologist Dr. Te Friedman is actually at Cedars Sinaii where Dr. Grossan is.  I’ve been planning to make an appointment with Dr. Grossan the next time I see Dr. Friedman. In a nutshell – Dr. Friedman is about as thorough an endocrinologist as can be found anywhere, and he’s gotten all of my hormones into the mid to high normal range that were low (which was most of them). Do you know what your TSH (thyroid) numeric value is?  It is a blood test. If possible, the numeric value is desirable rather than a conclusion as refernce ranges vary and are being revised. I don’t recall TSH or T3, T4 measurements but at the time I was on 88mcg of T4 which Dr. Friedman raised to 125mcg, and based on a later test, back down to 117mcg. Also I would check fasting B12 level and white blood cell morphology. I can’t answer either of these at the moment, although I do take B12 supplements. Are you tired all the time? Yes indeed.  I am not sure if this is due to some yet to be found hormonal issue related to my pituitary (head trauma is what caused the damage) or if this is sleep related.  I suspect sleep, as there HAVE been times when I have slept well and noticed a definite improvement. But, it appears to be dependent on both possible nocturnal asthma being under control, AND clear nasal breathing.  Nasal CPAP was worthless as I had predicted considering how closed off my nasal passages are.  You can’t force air through pinholes. I have a CPAP machine and I’m considering trying it with an OPAP (oral) mask as it seems at the moment at least, mouth breathing at night is my best and possibly only option.

Ok that is what I suspected – there are some underlying metabolic/hormonal factiors here.   You are right on top of them though. Lack of sleep also will cause inflammation through the body, so it could be that alone. I  think that it is among those factors that the cause of your sinusitis lies…..

Response:

On Mon, 05 Dec 2005 15:06:26 -0500, Susan <neverm…@nomail.com

wrote: More horse than zebralike, I wonder if the irrigation solution is sterile?

Fair enough question but I actually think that slow metabolism is a major factor in soem forms of sinsusitis. View may differ on which is the horse and which is the zebra….

Response:

Don Brady wrote:

Really! Hmm I wonder if there could possibly be a metabolic or immune status issue then.

This is entirely possible; I am actually a hypopituitary patient.  My endocrinologist Dr. Te Friedman is actually at Cedars Sinaii where Dr. Grossan is.  I’ve been planning to make an appointment with Dr. Grossan the next time I see Dr. Friedman. In a nutshell – Dr. Friedman is about as thorough an endocrinologist as can be found anywhere, and he’s gotten all of my hormones into the mid to high normal range that were low (which was most of them).

Do you know what your TSH (thyroid) numeric value is?  It is a blood test. If possible, the numeric value is desirable rather than a conclusion as refernce ranges vary and are being revised.

I don’t recall TSH or T3, T4 measurements but at the time I was on 88mcg of T4 which Dr. Friedman raised to 125mcg, and based on a later test, back down to 117mcg.

Also I would check fasting B12 level and white blood cell morphology.

I can’t answer either of these at the moment, although I do take B12 supplements.

Are you tired all the time?

Yes indeed.  I am not sure if this is due to some yet to be found hormonal issue related to my pituitary (head trauma is what caused the damage) or if this is sleep related.  I suspect sleep, as there HAVE been times when I have slept well and noticed a definite improvement. But, it appears to be dependent on both possible nocturnal asthma being under control, AND clear nasal breathing.  Nasal CPAP was worthless as I had predicted considering how closed off my nasal passages are.  You can’t force air through pinholes. I have a CPAP machine and I’m considering trying it with an OPAP (oral) mask as it seems at the moment at least, mouth breathing at night is my best and possibly only option.

Are you on any kind of fad diet or do you have major digestive problems?

No fad diets.  I don’t believe in them.  No digestive problems that I am aware of aside from excess stomach acid and this can be eliminated by dietary adjustments.  But, I LOVE hot / spicy foods unfortunately lol. Thank you for the help. Doug

Response:

Don and Susan, thank you for your comments about Afrin. I have found unfortunately that my nose becomes "addicted" to Afrin even using it only once per day, before bed.  However, it is my understanding that it is a preservative in Afrin that causes this and not the actual active ingredient??? Why on EARTH would they not change their formula if that is the case, or why wouldn’t a competitor release a generic with a preservative that does not have this problem?? As far as cleaning up my area goes, before having to move for work reasons I had a brand new house built with all hardwood flooring, and the best Consumer Reports whole-house Aprilaire air purifier.  I also had top of the line HEPA room units in my bedroom and my office.  All pillows / bedding allergen proofed.  There literally was NOWHERE for any allergen to be in those rooms.  They may have well have been Intel cleanrooms.  This didn’t help, either.  My allergist referred me to an ENT and I had a CT which showed no infection but I did have oversized turbinates, and one turbinate had a cyst / nodule or something on it. I had at turbinectomy and that didn’t help, either. Dr. Grossan, I’m actually not using Claritin, I am using Costco generic and this does not appear to have any sort of coating on it.  Since Afrin was starting to give me rebound problems I quit using it and started using Singulair + Claritin in saline.  It seemed to help a bit, but not NEARLY as much.  Not enough help to even bother so I quit using spray entirely.  My nose has completely recovered from the Afrin as I didn’t use it very long. However, I HAVE continued to use my Hydropulse 2X per day, hypertonic. This time around, it seems to be having a positive effect and it’s only been a few days now.  I am using Breathe Ease XL this time, whereas last time I was just using regular salt and baking soda.  Since irrigating however, (and this happened last time as well) I have felt TERRIBLE – I would liken it to the "withdrawal" one may feel when going on a diet that restricts a lot of foods they previously ate.  Really foggy head, very tired, can definitely feel it in my sinuses and eyes. I am guessing that this is my body reacting to the abscencse (or greatly reduced level) of offending allergens in my nasal passages and hence the "withdrawal" feeling? I am hoping that what will happen if I continue to irrigate is, this will go away and I will feel better than before.  How common are these symptoms and any idea how long this process can take?

Response:

On 5 Dec 2005 11:39:13 -0800, dougred…@gmail.com wrote:

Don and Susan, thank you for your comments about Afrin. I have found unfortunately that my nose becomes "addicted" to Afrin even using it only once per day, before bed.  However, it is my understanding that it is a preservative in Afrin that causes this and not the actual active ingredient??? Why on EARTH would they not change their formula if that is the case, or why wouldn’t a competitor release a generic with a preservative that does not have this problem??

Actually I think it is the active ingredient but I am sure that others will claify.

As far as cleaning up my area goes, before having to move for work reasons I had a brand new house built with all hardwood flooring, and the best Consumer Reports whole-house Aprilaire air purifier.  I also had top of the line HEPA room units in my bedroom and my office.  All pillows / bedding allergen proofed.  There literally was NOWHERE for any allergen to be in those rooms.  They may have well have been Intel cleanrooms.  This didn’t help, either

Really!   Hmm I wonder if there could possibly be a metabolic or immune status issue then. Do you know what your TSH (thyroid) numeric value is?  It is a blood test. If possible, the numeric value is desirable rather than a conclusion as refernce ranges vary and are being revised. Also I would check fasting B12 level and white blood cell morphology. Are you tired all the time? Are you on any kind of fad diet or do you have major digestive problems?

Response:

Question:

I have been taking Serzone for at least 3 months. Before that i took Zoloft very briefly. I had a lot of side effects on Zoloft.  Started out on 50mg of Serzone now at 300mg. I havnt noticed any strong reaction one way or another. No real bad side effects and no real help for sp. No weight gain. I think I have been feeling alittle less anxious- like I dont care as much what people think. I do feel alittle tired during the day tho but I cant say for sure its because of that. My therapist recommends I go a higher dose -she thinks I will feel more of an affect then. We shall see. Renee

Response:

From: zkwyed1 zkwyed1NOzkS…@yahoo.co I’ve been taking Serzone for about two months now. Before that I had taken Wellbutrin for about two months. On the Wellbutrin I was having a lot of trouble sleeping and problems with trembling and feeling on edge, not to mention it didn’t help with anxiety much. So I switched to Serzone which helps sleeping a lot, in fact one of the problems I had the first couple of weeks was that I could hardly wake up. I could shut of my alarm after eight hours of sleep and still sleep for hours after that… my bed would just call to me with some sort of siren song thing…

LOL. I know that feeling.  I’ve been taking it 2 weeks now and I still have a hard time waking up.  I’m hoping that will pass.  Today (Saturday)  I slept till 10:00 am ! I haven’t done that in a long time. I am feeling very sluggish tho.  and I’m really hoping that will go away.  

 That was the only problem I had with weight gain, I felt like a giant slug and didn’t want to move much. It has gotten a lot better in that regard. In fact, I would say that if you’re someone with anxiety, Serzone doesn’t add the tense jittery feeling that Wellbutrin seemed to for me. That is definitely only my opinion.

I don’t feel the least bit jittery on this med  : )  I didn’t understand about the weight gain, did you gain weight on this med??  I’m asking because my doc told me I would gain weight on this one.  (that’s what they all say, huh)

On another note, I have been lurking about eight months here, and I appreciate being able to read what everyone posts here. Every single one of you is important to those of us who reads these posts but hasn’t gotten to the point of interacting here. Thanks to all of you and good luck to everyone. The quiet one.

Thanks quiet one, I hope you delurk again *soon*  : ) Pam – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

From: g…@execpc.com  (Doug) Pam, I took 100 to 150 mg of Serzone along with 40 mg of Paxil per day for almost two years.  I used the Serzone to try to help me sleep, which it did, but because it was mixed with the Paxil, I can’t isolate what it did for me besides helping me to sleep better.

Doug,   I see….well although it’s been way to soon, that is about all I’m seeing from it too.  But it’s still ealry Pam

Response:

In article <20000109202032.20893.00001…@ng-cu1.aol.com

,

mzp…@aol.com (MzPami) wrote:

Well, I m making the switch from Celexa to Serzone, I can’t go back on Remeron cuz of the weight gain thing, and Celexa is giving me insomnia or something, so  I’m going to take Serzone untill I loose some weight . (great motivation!) P-Doc says it works like Remeron but doesn’t increase the appetite like Remeron,  So if any one has any experience with it *please* post it.  I’m counting on you lurkers too : ) thanks Pam

 I’ve been taking Serzone for about two months now. Before that I had taken Wellbutrin for about two months. On the Wellbutrin I was having a lot of trouble sleeping and problems with trembling and feeling on edge, not to mention it didn’t help with anxiety much. So I switched to Serzone which helps sleeping a lot, in fact one of the problems I had the first couple of weeks was that I could hardly wake up. I could shut of my alarm after eight hours of sleep and still sleep for hours after that… my bed would just call to me with some sort of siren song thing…   That was the only problem I had with weight gain, I felt like a giant slug and didn’t want to move much. It has gotten a lot better in that regard. In fact, I would say that if you’re someone with anxiety, Serzone doesn’t add the tense jittery feeling that Wellbutrin seemed to for me. That is definitely only my opinion.  On another note, I have been lurking about eight months here, and I appreciate being able to read what everyone posts here. Every single one of you is important to those of us who reads these posts but hasn’t gotten to the point of interacting here. Thanks to all of you and good luck to everyone. The quiet one. * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

In article <20000109202032.20893.00001…@ng-cu1.aol.com

,

mzp…@aol.com (MzPami) wrote:

Well, I m making the switch from Celexa to Serzone, I can’t go back on Remeron cuz of the weight gain thing, and Celexa is giving me insomnia or something, so  I’m going to take Serzone untill I loose some weight . (great  motivation!)   P-Doc says it works like Remeron but doesn’t increase the appetite like Remeron,  So if any one has any experience with it *please* post it.  I’m counting on you lurkers too : ) thanks Pam

Back in my NIMH days, I was put on Serzone for a while. I can’t say that it did much of anything, for good or for ill. Craig

Response:

Well, I m making the switch from Celexa to Serzone, I can’t go back on Remeron cuz of the weight gain thing, and Celexa is giving me insomnia or something, so  I’m going to take Serzone untill I loose some weight . (great motivation!)   P-Doc says it works like Remeron but doesn’t increase the appetite like Remeron,  So if any one has any experience with it *please* post it.  I’m counting on you lurkers too : ) thanks Pam

Response:

On 10 Jan 2000 01:20:32 GMT, mzp…@aol.com (MzPami) wrote:

Well, I m making the switch from Celexa to Serzone, I can’t go back on Remeron cuz of the weight gain thing, and Celexa is giving me insomnia or something, so I’m going to take Serzone untill I loose some weight . (great motivation!)   P-Doc says it works like Remeron but doesn’t increase the appetite like Remeron,  So if any one has any experience with it *please* post it.  I’m counting on you lurkers too : ) thanks Pam

Pam, I took 100 to 150 mg of Serzone along with 40 mg of Paxil per day for almost two years.  I used the Serzone to try to help me sleep, which it did, but because it was mixed with the Paxil, I can’t isolate what it did for me besides helping me to sleep better.

Response:

I too went from Remeron to Serzone but for different reasons.  The first couple of months on Serzone I couldn’t stand the sight of food. That’s the good part.  The bad part was that it made me very nervous and irritable.  I stuck it out and by month 3 I was feeling pretty good and the sp was tolerable. Unfortunatly I also got my appetite back (w/o weight gain)  Sad to say I developed a serious side effect after 6 months and had to quit taking it.  So it’s back to hit and miss with the meds again.  I hope you have good luck with it.                     Gina * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

That happens when they find out I’m a cheap date! You what??? (What are you on today? I think I want some.) — Connie=^..^= : i love you : : : : : : : On Wed, 15 May 2002 02:24:08 GMT, "ConnieKat" : :

True, true!

:

And I have no brain to mouth filter.

:

You’d have fun with that !

:

:

And I could go on for a month, on a $5 supply of liquor.

:

:

—

:

Connie=^..^=

:

"%" <f…@pris.ca wrote in message

:

news:3ce1c589.17686053@news.cis.dfn.de…

:

:

:

: i like a babbler ,

:

: check out my track record around here .

:

:

:

:

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:

:

:

:

: On Wed, 15 May 2002 02:15:50 GMT, "ConnieKat"

:

: <cbdsgn2=^….@pacbell.net wrote:

:

:

:

: Heck,

:

: Half a beer, and I’m drunk.

:

: Can’t stop talking after that. If you want me to stop talking, get me

a :

: shot, and I’ll pass out.

:

: Sheesh, I’m a cheap date!

: >:

: >:

—

: >:

Connie=^..^=

: >:

: >:

: >:

:

:

: : you couldn’t handle most of what i’m on ,

:

: : but my anti depressant might be ok for you ,

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: : if you break it in half .

: >:

:

: >:

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: >:

:

:

: : On Wed, 15 May 2002 02:06:22 GMT, "ConnieKat"

: >:

: <cbdsgn2=^….@pacbell.net wrote:

: >:

:

:

: : I think mine is not from Serzone.

:

: : Bummer, does that mean we can’t share drugs?

: >: >:

: >: >:

: >: >:

—

: >: >:

Connie=^..^=

: >: >:

"%" <f…@pris.ca wrote in message

:

: : news:3ce1c123.16560159@news.cis.dfn.de…

: >: >:

:

:

: : : well it did that to me ,

:

: : : but i’m not speaking for everyone

: >: >:

:

: >: >:

:

: >: >:

:

: >: >:

:

: >: >:

:

:

: : : On Wed, 15 May 2002 01:26:25 GMT, "ConnieKat"

: >: >:

: <cbdsgn2=^….@pacbell.net wrote:

: >: >:

:

:

: : : Is that what’s causing it?

:

: : : I thought I just wasn’t eating the right stuff.

: >: >: >:

: >: >: >:

—

: >: >: >:

Connie=^..^=

: >: >: >:

: >: >: >:

:

: : : : i tried it , but didn’t like ,

:

: : : : running to the toilet every 10 minutes

: >: >: >:

:

: >: >: >:

:

: >: >: >:

:

: >: >: >:

:

: >: >: >:

:

:

: : : : On Wed, 15 May 2002 00:36:44 GMT, "ConnieKat"

: >: >: >:

: <cbdsgn2=^….@pacbell.net wrote:

: >: >: >:

:

:

: : : : I’ve been on it for 2-3 years now. works good for me, almost

no :

: : : : Side-effects. Little nausea 1-3 hours after I take it, but  I

:

take

:

: it

:

: : : before

:

: : : : I go to sleep.

:

: : : : I like being on it.

: >: >: >: >:

: >: >: >: >:

—

: >: >: >: >:

Connie=^..^=

: >: >: >: >:

:

: : : :

:

: : : : : Has anyone taken Serzone?  It was prescribed to me for

chronic :

: : : : : insomnia.

:

: : : : : Would appreciate knowing if it has worked for anyone, and

side :

: : effects

:

: : : : : you might have experienced.

: >: >: >: >:

:

: >: >: >: >:

: >: >: >: >:

: >: >: >:

:

: >: >: >:

: >: >: >:

: >: >:

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:

:

Response:

i’m on the chair . On Wed, 15 May 2002 02:44:39 GMT, "ConnieKat" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -<cbdsgn2=^….@pacbell.net

wrote: That happens when they find out I’m a cheap date! You what??? (What are you on today? I think I want some.) — Connie=^..^= : i love you : : : : : : : On Wed, 15 May 2002 02:24:08 GMT, "ConnieKat" : : True, true! : And I have no brain to mouth filter. : You’d have fun with that ! : : And I could go on for a month, on a $5 supply of liquor. : : — : Connie=^..^= : "%" <f…@pris.ca wrote in message : news:3ce1c589.17686053@news.cis.dfn.de… : : : : i like a babbler , : : check out my track record around here . : : : : : : : : : : On Wed, 15 May 2002 02:15:50 GMT, "ConnieKat" : : <cbdsgn2=^….@pacbell.net wrote: : : : : Heck, : : Half a beer, and I’m drunk. : : Can’t stop talking after that. If you want me to stop talking, get me a : : shot, and I’ll pass out. : : Sheesh, I’m a cheap date! : : : : — : : Connie=^..^= : : : : : : : : : : you couldn’t handle most of what i’m on , : : : but my anti depressant might be ok for you , : : : if you break it in half . : : : : : : : : : : : : On Wed, 15 May 2002 02:06:22 GMT, "ConnieKat" : : : <cbdsgn2=^….@pacbell.net wrote: : : : : : : I think mine is not from Serzone. : : : Bummer, does that mean we can’t share drugs? : : : : : : : : : — : : : Connie=^..^= : : : "%" <f…@pris.ca wrote in message : : : news:3ce1c123.16560159@news.cis.dfn.de… : : : : : : : : well it did that to me , : : : : but i’m not speaking for everyone : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : On Wed, 15 May 2002 01:26:25 GMT, "ConnieKat" : : : : <cbdsgn2=^….@pacbell.net wrote: : : : : : : : : Is that what’s causing it? : : : : I thought I just wasn’t eating the right stuff. : : : : : : : : — : : : : Connie=^..^= : : : : : : : : : : : : : i tried it , but didn’t like , : : : : : running to the toilet every 10 minutes : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : On Wed, 15 May 2002 00:36:44 GMT, "ConnieKat" : : : : : <cbdsgn2=^….@pacbell.net wrote: : : : : : : : : : : I’ve been on it for 2-3 years now. works good for me, almost no : : : : : Side-effects. Little nausea 1-3 hours after I take it, but  I : take : : it : : : : before : : : : : I go to sleep. : : : : : I like being on it. : : : : : : : : : : — : : : : : Connie=^..^= : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : Has anyone taken Serzone?  It was prescribed to me for chronic : : : : : : insomnia. : : : : : : Would appreciate knowing if it has worked for anyone, and side : : : effects : : : : : : you might have experienced. : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : :

Response:

mee too! — Connie=^..^= :

:

: i love you

:

:

:

:

:

:

:

:

:

:

:

:

:

: On Wed, 15 May 2002 02:24:08 GMT, "ConnieKat"

:

:

:

:

: True, true!

:

: And I have no brain to mouth filter.

:

: You’d have fun with that !

: >:

:

: And I could go on for a month, on a $5 supply of liquor.

: >:

:

: —

:

: Connie=^..^=

:

: "%" <f…@pris.ca wrote in message

:

: news:3ce1c589.17686053@news.cis.dfn.de…

: >:

:

:

: : i like a babbler ,

:

: : check out my track record around here .

: >:

:

: >:

:

: >:

:

: >:

:

:

: : On Wed, 15 May 2002 02:15:50 GMT, "ConnieKat"

:

: : <cbdsgn2=^….@pacbell.net wrote:

: >:

:

:

: : Heck,

:

: : Half a beer, and I’m drunk.

:

: : Can’t stop talking after that. If you want me to stop talking, get

me :

a

:

: : shot, and I’ll pass out.

:

: : Sheesh, I’m a cheap date!

: >: >:

: >:

: —

: >:

: Connie=^..^=

: >: >:

: >: >:

: >: >:

:

:

: : : you couldn’t handle most of what i’m on ,

:

: : : but my anti depressant might be ok for you ,

:

: : : if you break it in half .

: >: >:

:

: >: >:

:

: >: >:

:

:

: : : On Wed, 15 May 2002 02:06:22 GMT, "ConnieKat"

: >:

: : <cbdsgn2=^….@pacbell.net wrote:

: >: >:

:

:

: : : I think mine is not from Serzone.

:

: : : Bummer, does that mean we can’t share drugs?

: >: >: >:

: >: >: >:

: >: >:

: —

: >: >:

: Connie=^..^=

: >: >:

: "%" <f…@pris.ca wrote in message

:

: : : news:3ce1c123.16560159@news.cis.dfn.de…

: >: >: >:

:

:

: : : : well it did that to me ,

:

: : : : but i’m not speaking for everyone

: >: >: >:

:

: >: >: >:

:

: >: >: >:

:

: >: >: >:

:

: >: >: >:

:

:

: : : : On Wed, 15 May 2002 01:26:25 GMT, "ConnieKat"

: >: >:

: : <cbdsgn2=^….@pacbell.net wrote:

: >: >: >:

:

:

: : : : Is that what’s causing it?

:

: : : : I thought I just wasn’t eating the right stuff.

: >: >: >: >:

: >: >: >:

: —

: >: >: >:

: Connie=^..^=

: >: >: >: >:

: >: >: >: >:

:

: : : : : i tried it , but didn’t like ,

:

: : : : : running to the toilet every 10 minutes

: >: >: >: >:

:

: >: >: >: >:

:

: >: >: >: >:

:

: >: >: >: >:

:

: >: >: >: >:

:

:

: : : : : On Wed, 15 May 2002 00:36:44 GMT, "ConnieKat"

: >: >: >:

: : <cbdsgn2=^….@pacbell.net wrote:

: >: >: >: >:

:

:

: : : : : I’ve been on it for 2-3 years now. works good for me,

almost :

no

:

: : : : : Side-effects. Little nausea 1-3 hours after I take it, but

I :

: take

:

: : it

:

: : : : before

:

: : : : : I go to sleep.

:

: : : : : I like being on it.

: >: >: >: >: >:

: >: >: >: >:

: —

: >: >: >: >:

: Connie=^..^=

: >: >: >: >: >:

:

: : : : :

:

: : : : : : Has anyone taken Serzone?  It was prescribed to me for

:

chronic

:

: : : : : : insomnia.

:

: : : : : : Would appreciate knowing if it has worked for anyone,

and :

side

:

: : : effects

:

: : : : : : you might have experienced.

: >: >: >: >: >:

:

: >: >: >: >: >:

: >: >: >: >: >:

: >: >: >: >:

:

: >: >: >: >:

: >: >: >: >:

: >: >: >:

:

: >: >: >:

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: >: >:

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: >: >:

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Response:

True, true! And I have no brain to mouth filter. You’d have fun with that ! And I could go on for a month, on a $5 supply of liquor. — Connie=^..^= "%" <f…@pris.ca

wrote in message

news:3ce1c589.17686053@news.cis.dfn.de… : : i like a babbler , : check out my track record around here . : : : : : On Wed, 15 May 2002 02:15:50 GMT, "ConnieKat" : <cbdsgn2=^….@pacbell.net

wrote:

: :

Heck,

:

Half a beer, and I’m drunk.

:

Can’t stop talking after that. If you want me to stop talking, get me a

:

shot, and I’ll pass out.

:

Sheesh, I’m a cheap date!

:

:

—

:

Connie=^..^=

:

:

:

:

:

: you couldn’t handle most of what i’m on ,

:

: but my anti depressant might be ok for you ,

:

: if you break it in half .

:

:

:

:

:

:

:

: On Wed, 15 May 2002 02:06:22 GMT, "ConnieKat"

: >: <cbdsgn2=^….@pacbell.net

wrote:

:

:

:

: I think mine is not from Serzone.

:

: Bummer, does that mean we can’t share drugs?

: >:

: >:

: >:

—

: >:

Connie=^..^=

: >: >"%" <f…@pris.ca

wrote in message

:

: news:3ce1c123.16560159@news.cis.dfn.de…

: >:

:

:

: : well it did that to me ,

:

: : but i’m not speaking for everyone

: >:

:

: >:

:

: >:

:

: >:

:

: >:

:

:

: : On Wed, 15 May 2002 01:26:25 GMT, "ConnieKat"

: >: >: <cbdsgn2=^….@pacbell.net

wrote:

: >:

:

:

: : Is that what’s causing it?

:

: : I thought I just wasn’t eating the right stuff.

: >: >:

: >: >:

—

: >: >:

Connie=^..^=

: >: >:

: >: >:

:

: : : i tried it , but didn’t like ,

:

: : : running to the toilet every 10 minutes

: >: >:

:

: >: >:

:

: >: >:

:

: >: >:

:

: >: >:

:

:

: : : On Wed, 15 May 2002 00:36:44 GMT, "ConnieKat"

: >: >: >: <cbdsgn2=^….@pacbell.net

wrote:

: >: >:

:

:

: : : I’ve been on it for 2-3 years now. works good for me, almost no

:

: : : Side-effects. Little nausea 1-3 hours after I take it, but  I

take :

it

:

: : before

:

: : : I go to sleep.

:

: : : I like being on it.

: >: >: >:

: >: >: >:

—

: >: >: >:

Connie=^..^=

: >: >: >:

:

: : :

:

: : : : Has anyone taken Serzone?  It was prescribed to me for chronic

:

: : : : insomnia.

:

: : : : Would appreciate knowing if it has worked for anyone, and side

:

: effects

:

: : : : you might have experienced.

: >: >: >:

:

: >: >: >:

: >: >: >:

: >: >:

:

: >: >:

: >: >:

: >:

:

: >:

: >:

:

:

:

:

:

Response:

I took it for almost 2 yrs. It worked for the insomnia, but towards the end , it gave me hot flashes and daytime drowsiness. "Erleichda" <70471.1…@compuserve.com

wrote in message

news:vq43eu4aqr6hosp5967s9covpp61qa2g6l@4ax.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Has anyone taken Serzone?  It was prescribed to me for chronic insomnia. Would appreciate knowing if it has worked for anyone, and side effects you might have experienced.

Response:

I see, you like it when they’re passed out? — Connie=^..^= "Ian" <i…@ian.net

wrote in message

news:a6j3eu8ns4n5ca9pjmbfn7l13pn3vrhi8s@4ax.com… : On Wed, 15 May 2002 02:24:08 GMT, "ConnieKat" : <cbdsgn2=^….@pacbell.net

wrote:

: :

And I could go on for a month, on a $5 supply of liquor.

: : I used to date girls like you in high school……

Response:

Could you had gotten any less? — Connie=^..^= "%" <f…@pris.ca

wrote in message news:3ce1ea22.2120130@news.cis.dfn.de…

: : i expected nothing less : : : : : : On Wed, 15 May 2002 04:44:52 GMT, "ConnieKat" : <cbdsgn2=^….@pacbell.net

wrote:

: :

hmm, a rhetorical question with an answer.

:

You trying to trick me into thinking again?

:

Ain’t gonna work this time, pal

:

:

—

:

Connie=^..^=

:

:

:

: then your question has an answer

:

:

:

:

:

:

:

:

:

:

:

:

:

: On Wed, 15 May 2002 04:15:43 GMT, "ConnieKat"

: >: <cbdsgn2=^….@pacbell.net

wrote:

:

:

:

: I know you’re fine.

: >:

: >:

—

: >:

Connie=^..^=

: >:

: >:

:

:

: : ok , f…@pris.ca

: >:

:

: >:

:

: >:

:

: >:

:

:

: : On Wed, 15 May 2002 03:52:14 GMT, "ConnieKat"

: >: >: <cbdsgn2=^….@pacbell.net

wrote:

: >:

:

:

: : ok, what?

:

: : My, you’re agreeable today!

: >: >:

: >: >:

—

: >: >:

Connie=^..^=

: >: >:

:

: : : ok

: >: >:

:

: >: >:

:

: >: >:

:

: >: >:

:

: >: >:

:

:

: : : On Wed, 15 May 2002 02:53:48 GMT, "ConnieKat"

: >: >:

: >: >:

:

:

: : : mee too!

: >: >: >:

: >: >: >:

—

: >: >: >:

Connie=^..^=

: >: >: >:

: >: >: >:

: >: >: >:

: >: >: >:

: >: >: >:

: >: >: >: >:

:

: : : : : i love you

: >: >: >: >:

:

: >: >: >: >:

:

: >: >: >: >:

:

: >: >: >: >:

:

: >: >: >: >:

:

: >: >: >: >:

:

:

: : : : : On Wed, 15 May 2002 02:24:08 GMT, "ConnieKat"

: >: >: >: >:

: >: >: >: >:

:

:

: : : : : True, true!

:

: : : : : And I have no brain to mouth filter.

:

: : : : : You’d have fun with that !

: >: >: >: >: >:

:

: : : : : And I could go on for a month, on a $5 supply of liquor.

: >: >: >: >: >:

: >: >: >: >: >:

—

: >: >: >: >: >:

Connie=^..^=

:

: : : : : "%" <f…@pris.ca wrote in message

:

: : : : : news:3ce1c589.17686053@news.cis.dfn.de…

: >: >: >: >: >:

:

:

: : : : : : i like a babbler ,

:

: : : : : : check out my track record around here .

: >: >:

: >: >:

: >: >:

: >:

:

: >:

: >:

:

:

:

:

:

Response:

i expected nothing less On Wed, 15 May 2002 04:44:52 GMT, "ConnieKat" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -<cbdsgn2=^….@pacbell.net

wrote: hmm, a rhetorical question with an answer. You trying to trick me into thinking again? Ain’t gonna work this time, pal — Connie=^..^= : then your question has an answer : : : : : : : On Wed, 15 May 2002 04:15:43 GMT, "ConnieKat" : <cbdsgn2=^….@pacbell.net wrote: : : I know you’re fine. : : — : Connie=^..^= : : : : : ok , f…@pris.ca : : : : : : : : : : On Wed, 15 May 2002 03:52:14 GMT, "ConnieKat" : : <cbdsgn2=^….@pacbell.net wrote: : : : : ok, what? : : My, you’re agreeable today! : : : : — : : Connie=^..^= : : : : : ok : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : On Wed, 15 May 2002 02:53:48 GMT, "ConnieKat" : : : : : : : : mee too! : : : : : : — : : : Connie=^..^= : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : i love you : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : On Wed, 15 May 2002 02:24:08 GMT, "ConnieKat" : : : : : : : : : : : : : : True, true! : : : : : And I have no brain to mouth filter. : : : : : You’d have fun with that ! : : : : : : : : : : And I could go on for a month, on a $5 supply of liquor. : : : : : : : : : : — : : : : : Connie=^..^= : : : : : "%" <f…@pris.ca wrote in message : : : : : news:3ce1c589.17686053@news.cis.dfn.de… : : : : : : : : : : : : i like a babbler , : : : : : : check out my track record around here . : : : : : : : : : : :

Response:

hmm, a rhetorical question with an answer. You trying to trick me into thinking again? Ain’t gonna work this time, pal — Connie=^..^= : then your question has an answer : : : : : : : On Wed, 15 May 2002 04:15:43 GMT, "ConnieKat" : <cbdsgn2=^….@pacbell.net

wrote:

: :

I know you’re fine.

:

:

—

:

Connie=^..^=

:

:

:

:

: ok , f…@pris.ca

:

:

:

:

:

:

:

:

:

: On Wed, 15 May 2002 03:52:14 GMT, "ConnieKat"

: >: <cbdsgn2=^….@pacbell.net

wrote:

:

:

:

: ok, what?

:

: My, you’re agreeable today!

: >:

: >:

—

: >:

Connie=^..^=

: >:

:

: : ok

: >:

:

: >:

:

: >:

:

: >:

:

: >:

:

:

: : On Wed, 15 May 2002 02:53:48 GMT, "ConnieKat"

: >:

: >:

:

:

: : mee too!

: >: >:

: >: >:

—

: >: >:

Connie=^..^=

: >: >:

: >: >:

: >: >:

: >: >:

: >: >:

: >: >: >:

:

: : : : i love you

: >: >: >:

:

: >: >: >:

:

: >: >: >:

:

: >: >: >:

:

: >: >: >:

:

: >: >: >:

:

:

: : : : On Wed, 15 May 2002 02:24:08 GMT, "ConnieKat"

: >: >: >:

: >: >: >:

:

:

: : : : True, true!

:

: : : : And I have no brain to mouth filter.

:

: : : : You’d have fun with that !

: >: >: >: >:

:

: : : : And I could go on for a month, on a $5 supply of liquor.

: >: >: >: >:

: >: >: >: >:

—

: >: >: >: >:

Connie=^..^=

:

: : : : "%" <f…@pris.ca wrote in message

:

: : : : news:3ce1c589.17686053@news.cis.dfn.de…

: >: >: >: >:

:

:

: : : : : i like a babbler ,

:

: : : : : check out my track record around here .

: >:

: >:

: >:

:

:

:

:

:

Response:

then your question has an answer On Wed, 15 May 2002 04:15:43 GMT, "ConnieKat" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -<cbdsgn2=^….@pacbell.net

wrote: I know you’re fine. — Connie=^..^= : : ok , f…@pris.ca : : : : : On Wed, 15 May 2002 03:52:14 GMT, "ConnieKat" : <cbdsgn2=^….@pacbell.net wrote: : : ok, what? : My, you’re agreeable today! : : — : Connie=^..^= : : : ok : : : : : : : : : : : : On Wed, 15 May 2002 02:53:48 GMT, "ConnieKat" : : : : : mee too! : : : : — : : Connie=^..^= : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : i love you : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : On Wed, 15 May 2002 02:24:08 GMT, "ConnieKat" : : : : : : : : : : : True, true! : : : : And I have no brain to mouth filter. : : : : You’d have fun with that ! : : : : : : : : And I could go on for a month, on a $5 supply of liquor. : : : : : : : : — : : : : Connie=^..^= : : : : "%" <f…@pris.ca wrote in message : : : : news:3ce1c589.17686053@news.cis.dfn.de… : : : : : : : : : : i like a babbler , : : : : : check out my track record around here . : : : :

Response:

ok , f…@pris.ca On Wed, 15 May 2002 03:52:14 GMT, "ConnieKat" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -<cbdsgn2=^….@pacbell.net

wrote: ok, what? My, you’re agreeable today! — Connie=^..^= : ok : : : : : : On Wed, 15 May 2002 02:53:48 GMT, "ConnieKat" : : mee too! : : — : Connie=^..^= : : : : : : : : : : i love you : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : On Wed, 15 May 2002 02:24:08 GMT, "ConnieKat" : : : : : : : : True, true! : : : And I have no brain to mouth filter. : : : You’d have fun with that ! : : : : : : And I could go on for a month, on a $5 supply of liquor. : : : : : : — : : : Connie=^..^= : : : "%" <f…@pris.ca wrote in message : : : news:3ce1c589.17686053@news.cis.dfn.de… : : : : : : : : i like a babbler , : : : : check out my track record around here .

Response:

I know you’re fine. — Connie=^..^= : : ok , f…@pris.ca : : : : : On Wed, 15 May 2002 03:52:14 GMT, "ConnieKat" : <cbdsgn2=^….@pacbell.net

wrote:

: :

ok, what?

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My, you’re agreeable today!

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—

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Connie=^..^=

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: ok

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: On Wed, 15 May 2002 02:53:48 GMT, "ConnieKat"

:

:

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: mee too!

: >:

: >:

—

: >:

Connie=^..^=

: >:

: >:

: >:

: >:

: >:

: >: >:

:

: : : i love you

: >: >:

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: >: >:

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: : : On Wed, 15 May 2002 02:24:08 GMT, "ConnieKat"

: >: >:

: >: >:

:

:

: : : True, true!

:

: : : And I have no brain to mouth filter.

:

: : : You’d have fun with that !

: >: >: >:

:

: : : And I could go on for a month, on a $5 supply of liquor.

: >: >: >:

: >: >: >:

—

: >: >: >:

Connie=^..^=

:

: : : "%" <f…@pris.ca wrote in message

:

: : : news:3ce1c589.17686053@news.cis.dfn.de…

: >: >: >:

:

:

: : : : i like a babbler ,

:

: : : : check out my track record around here .

:

:

:

:

Response:

ok, what? My, you’re agreeable today! — Connie=^..^= : ok : : : : : : On Wed, 15 May 2002 02:53:48 GMT, "ConnieKat" : :

mee too!

:

:

—

:

Connie=^..^=

:

:

:

:

:

: >:

:

: : i love you

:

: :

:

: :

:

: :

:

: :

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: :

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: :

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: : On Wed, 15 May 2002 02:24:08 GMT, "ConnieKat"

: >:

:

: :

:

: : True, true!

:

: : And I have no brain to mouth filter.

:

: : You’d have fun with that !

: >: >:

:

: : And I could go on for a month, on a $5 supply of liquor.

: >: >:

: >: >:

—

: >: >:

Connie=^..^=

:

: : "%" <f…@pris.ca wrote in message

:

: : news:3ce1c589.17686053@news.cis.dfn.de…

: >:

: :

:

: : : i like a babbler ,

:

: : : check out my track record around here .

Response:

ok On Wed, 15 May 2002 02:53:48 GMT, "ConnieKat" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -<cbdsgn2=^….@pacbell.net

wrote: mee too! — Connie=^..^= : : : i love you : : : : : : : : : : : : : : On Wed, 15 May 2002 02:24:08 GMT, "ConnieKat" : : : : : True, true! : : And I have no brain to mouth filter. : : You’d have fun with that ! : : : : And I could go on for a month, on a $5 supply of liquor. : : : : — : : Connie=^..^= : : "%" <f…@pris.ca wrote in message : : news:3ce1c589.17686053@news.cis.dfn.de… : : : : : : i like a babbler , : : : check out my track record around here . : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : On Wed, 15 May 2002 02:15:50 GMT, "ConnieKat" : : : <cbdsgn2=^….@pacbell.net wrote: : : : : : : Heck, : : : Half a beer, and I’m drunk. : : : Can’t stop talking after that. If you want me to stop talking, get me : a : : : shot, and I’ll pass out. : : : Sheesh, I’m a cheap date! : : : : : : — : : : Connie=^..^= : : : : : : : : : : : : : : you couldn’t handle most of what i’m on , : : : : but my anti depressant might be ok for you , : : : : if you break it in half . : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : On Wed, 15 May 2002 02:06:22 GMT, "ConnieKat" : : : : <cbdsgn2=^….@pacbell.net wrote: : : : : : : : : I think mine is not from Serzone. : : : : Bummer, does that mean we can’t share drugs? : : : : : : : : : : : : — : : : : Connie=^..^= : : : : "%" <f…@pris.ca wrote in message : : : : news:3ce1c123.16560159@news.cis.dfn.de… : : : : : : : : : : well it did that to me , : : : : : but i’m not speaking for everyone : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : On Wed, 15 May 2002 01:26:25 GMT, "ConnieKat" : : : : : <cbdsgn2=^….@pacbell.net wrote: : : : : : : : : : : Is that what’s causing it? : : : : : I thought I just wasn’t eating the right stuff. : : : : : : : : : : — : : : : : Connie=^..^= : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : i tried it , but didn’t like , : : : : : : running to the toilet every 10 minutes : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : On Wed, 15 May 2002 00:36:44 GMT, "ConnieKat" : : : : : : <cbdsgn2=^….@pacbell.net wrote: : : : : : : : : : : : : I’ve been on it for 2-3 years now. works good for me, almost : no : : : : : : Side-effects. Little nausea 1-3 hours after I take it, but I : : take : : : it : : : : : before : : : : : : I go to sleep. : : : : : : I like being on it. : : : : : : : : : : : : — : : : : : : Connie=^..^= : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : Has anyone taken Serzone?  It was prescribed to me for : chronic : : : : : : : insomnia. : : : : : : : Would appreciate knowing if it has worked for anyone, and : side : : : : effects : : : : : : : you might have experienced. : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : :

Response:

i like a babbler , check out my track record around here . On Wed, 15 May 2002 02:15:50 GMT, "ConnieKat" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -<cbdsgn2=^….@pacbell.net

wrote: Heck, Half a beer, and I’m drunk. Can’t stop talking after that. If you want me to stop talking, get me a shot, and I’ll pass out. Sheesh, I’m a cheap date! — Connie=^..^= : : you couldn’t handle most of what i’m on , : but my anti depressant might be ok for you , : if you break it in half . : : : : On Wed, 15 May 2002 02:06:22 GMT, "ConnieKat" : <cbdsgn2=^….@pacbell.net wrote: : : I think mine is not from Serzone. : Bummer, does that mean we can’t share drugs? : : : — : Connie=^..^= : "%" <f…@pris.ca wrote in message : news:3ce1c123.16560159@news.cis.dfn.de… : : : : well it did that to me , : : but i’m not speaking for everyone : : : : : : : : : : : : On Wed, 15 May 2002 01:26:25 GMT, "ConnieKat" : : <cbdsgn2=^….@pacbell.net wrote: : : : : Is that what’s causing it? : : I thought I just wasn’t eating the right stuff. : : : : — : : Connie=^..^= : : : : : : : i tried it , but didn’t like , : : : running to the toilet every 10 minutes : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : On Wed, 15 May 2002 00:36:44 GMT, "ConnieKat" : : : <cbdsgn2=^….@pacbell.net wrote: : : : : : : I’ve been on it for 2-3 years now. works good for me, almost no : : : Side-effects. Little nausea 1-3 hours after I take it, but  I take it : : before : : : I go to sleep. : : : I like being on it. : : : : : : — : : : Connie=^..^= : : : : : : : : : : Has anyone taken Serzone?  It was prescribed to me for chronic : : : : insomnia. : : : : Would appreciate knowing if it has worked for anyone, and side : effects : : : : you might have experienced. : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : :

Response:

i love you On Wed, 15 May 2002 02:24:08 GMT, "ConnieKat" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -<cbdsgn2=^….@pacbell.net

wrote: True, true! And I have no brain to mouth filter. You’d have fun with that ! And I could go on for a month, on a $5 supply of liquor. — Connie=^..^= "%" <f…@pris.ca wrote in message news:3ce1c589.17686053@news.cis.dfn.de… : : i like a babbler , : check out my track record around here . : : : : : On Wed, 15 May 2002 02:15:50 GMT, "ConnieKat" : <cbdsgn2=^….@pacbell.net wrote: : : Heck, : Half a beer, and I’m drunk. : Can’t stop talking after that. If you want me to stop talking, get me a : shot, and I’ll pass out. : Sheesh, I’m a cheap date! : : — : Connie=^..^= : : : : : : you couldn’t handle most of what i’m on , : : but my anti depressant might be ok for you , : : if you break it in half . : : : : : : : : On Wed, 15 May 2002 02:06:22 GMT, "ConnieKat" : : <cbdsgn2=^….@pacbell.net wrote: : : : : I think mine is not from Serzone. : : Bummer, does that mean we can’t share drugs? : : : : : : — : : Connie=^..^= : : "%" <f…@pris.ca wrote in message : : news:3ce1c123.16560159@news.cis.dfn.de… : : : : : : well it did that to me , : : : but i’m not speaking for everyone : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : On Wed, 15 May 2002 01:26:25 GMT, "ConnieKat" : : : <cbdsgn2=^….@pacbell.net wrote: : : : : : : Is that what’s causing it? : : : I thought I just wasn’t eating the right stuff. : : : : : : — : : : Connie=^..^= : : : : : : : : : : i tried it , but didn’t like , : : : : running to the toilet every 10 minutes : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : On Wed, 15 May 2002 00:36:44 GMT, "ConnieKat" : : : : <cbdsgn2=^….@pacbell.net wrote: : : : : : : : : I’ve been on it for 2-3 years now. works good for me, almost no : : : : Side-effects. Little nausea 1-3 hours after I take it, but  I take : it : : : before : : : : I go to sleep. : : : : I like being on it. : : : : : : : : — : : : : Connie=^..^= : : : : : : : : : : : : : Has anyone taken Serzone?  It was prescribed to me for chronic : : : : : insomnia. : : : : : Would appreciate knowing if it has worked for anyone, and side : : effects : : : : : you might have experienced. : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : :

Response:

Has anyone taken Serzone?  It was prescribed to me for chronic insomnia. Would appreciate knowing if it has worked for anyone, and side effects you might have experienced.

Response:

I’ve been on it for 2-3 years now. works good for me, almost no Side-effects. Little nausea 1-3 hours after I take it, but  I take it before I go to sleep. I like being on it. — Connie=^..^= : Has anyone taken Serzone?  It was prescribed to me for chronic : insomnia. : Would appreciate knowing if it has worked for anyone, and side effects : you might have experienced. :

Response:

i tried it , but didn’t like , running to the toilet every 10 minutes On Wed, 15 May 2002 00:36:44 GMT, "ConnieKat" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -<cbdsgn2=^….@pacbell.net

wrote: I’ve been on it for 2-3 years now. works good for me, almost no Side-effects. Little nausea 1-3 hours after I take it, but  I take it before I go to sleep. I like being on it. — Connie=^..^= : Has anyone taken Serzone?  It was prescribed to me for chronic : insomnia. : Would appreciate knowing if it has worked for anyone, and side effects : you might have experienced. :

Response:

Is that what’s causing it? I thought I just wasn’t eating the right stuff. — Connie=^..^= : i tried it , but didn’t like , : running to the toilet every 10 minutes : : : : : : On Wed, 15 May 2002 00:36:44 GMT, "ConnieKat" : <cbdsgn2=^….@pacbell.net

wrote:

: :

I’ve been on it for 2-3 years now. works good for me, almost no

:

Side-effects. Little nausea 1-3 hours after I take it, but  I take it

before :

I go to sleep.

:

I like being on it.

:

:

—

:

Connie=^..^=

:

:

:

: Has anyone taken Serzone?  It was prescribed to me for chronic

:

: insomnia.

:

: Would appreciate knowing if it has worked for anyone, and side effects

:

: you might have experienced.

:

:

:

:

:

Response:

well it did that to me , but i’m not speaking for everyone On Wed, 15 May 2002 01:26:25 GMT, "ConnieKat" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -<cbdsgn2=^….@pacbell.net

wrote: Is that what’s causing it? I thought I just wasn’t eating the right stuff. — Connie=^..^= : i tried it , but didn’t like , : running to the toilet every 10 minutes : : : : : : On Wed, 15 May 2002 00:36:44 GMT, "ConnieKat" : <cbdsgn2=^….@pacbell.net wrote: : : I’ve been on it for 2-3 years now. works good for me, almost no : Side-effects. Little nausea 1-3 hours after I take it, but  I take it before : I go to sleep. : I like being on it. : : — : Connie=^..^= : : : : Has anyone taken Serzone?  It was prescribed to me for chronic : : insomnia. : : Would appreciate knowing if it has worked for anyone, and side effects : : you might have experienced. : : : : :

Response:

I think mine is not from Serzone. Bummer, does that mean we can’t share drugs? — Connie=^..^= "%" <f…@pris.ca

wrote in message

news:3ce1c123.16560159@news.cis.dfn.de… : : well it did that to me , : but i’m not speaking for everyone : : : : : : On Wed, 15 May 2002 01:26:25 GMT, "ConnieKat" : <cbdsgn2=^….@pacbell.net

wrote:

: :

Is that what’s causing it?

:

I thought I just wasn’t eating the right stuff.

:

:

—

:

Connie=^..^=

:

:

:

: i tried it , but didn’t like ,

:

: running to the toilet every 10 minutes

:

:

:

:

:

:

:

:

:

:

:

: On Wed, 15 May 2002 00:36:44 GMT, "ConnieKat"

: >: <cbdsgn2=^….@pacbell.net

wrote:

:

:

:

: I’ve been on it for 2-3 years now. works good for me, almost no

:

: Side-effects. Little nausea 1-3 hours after I take it, but  I take it

:

before

:

: I go to sleep.

:

: I like being on it.

: >:

: >:

—

: >:

Connie=^..^=

: >:

:

:

:

: : Has anyone taken Serzone?  It was prescribed to me for chronic

:

: : insomnia.

:

: : Would appreciate knowing if it has worked for anyone, and side

effects :

: : you might have experienced.

: >:

:

: >:

: >:

:

:

:

:

:

Response:

you couldn’t handle most of what i’m on , but my anti depressant might be ok for you , if you break it in half . On Wed, 15 May 2002 02:06:22 GMT, "ConnieKat" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -<cbdsgn2=^….@pacbell.net

wrote: I think mine is not from Serzone. Bummer, does that mean we can’t share drugs? — Connie=^..^= "%" <f…@pris.ca wrote in message news:3ce1c123.16560159@news.cis.dfn.de… : : well it did that to me , : but i’m not speaking for everyone : : : : : : On Wed, 15 May 2002 01:26:25 GMT, "ConnieKat" : <cbdsgn2=^….@pacbell.net wrote: : : Is that what’s causing it? : I thought I just wasn’t eating the right stuff. : : — : Connie=^..^= : : : : i tried it , but didn’t like , : : running to the toilet every 10 minutes : : : : : : : : : : : : On Wed, 15 May 2002 00:36:44 GMT, "ConnieKat" : : <cbdsgn2=^….@pacbell.net wrote: : : : : I’ve been on it for 2-3 years now. works good for me, almost no : : Side-effects. Little nausea 1-3 hours after I take it, but  I take it : before : : I go to sleep. : : I like being on it. : : : : — : : Connie=^..^= : : : : : : : Has anyone taken Serzone?  It was prescribed to me for chronic : : : insomnia. : : : Would appreciate knowing if it has worked for anyone, and side effects : : : you might have experienced. : : : : : : : : : : : :

Response:

Heck, Half a beer, and I’m drunk. Can’t stop talking after that. If you want me to stop talking, get me a shot, and I’ll pass out. Sheesh, I’m a cheap date! — Connie=^..^= : : you couldn’t handle most of what i’m on , : but my anti depressant might be ok for you , : if you break it in half . : : : : On Wed, 15 May 2002 02:06:22 GMT, "ConnieKat" : <cbdsgn2=^….@pacbell.net

wrote:

: :

I think mine is not from Serzone.

:

Bummer, does that mean we can’t share drugs?

:

:

:

—

:

Connie=^..^=

:

"%" <f…@pris.ca wrote in message

:

news:3ce1c123.16560159@news.cis.dfn.de…

:

:

:

: well it did that to me ,

:

: but i’m not speaking for everyone

:

:

:

:

:

:

:

:

:

:

:

: On Wed, 15 May 2002 01:26:25 GMT, "ConnieKat"

: >: <cbdsgn2=^….@pacbell.net

wrote:

:

:

:

: Is that what’s causing it?

:

: I thought I just wasn’t eating the right stuff.

: >:

: >:

—

: >:

Connie=^..^=

: >:

: >:

:

: : i tried it , but didn’t like ,

:

: : running to the toilet every 10 minutes

: >:

:

: >:

:

: >:

:

: >:

:

: >:

:

:

: : On Wed, 15 May 2002 00:36:44 GMT, "ConnieKat"

: >: >: <cbdsgn2=^….@pacbell.net

wrote:

: >:

:

:

: : I’ve been on it for 2-3 years now. works good for me, almost no

:

: : Side-effects. Little nausea 1-3 hours after I take it, but  I take

it :

: before

:

: : I go to sleep.

:

: : I like being on it.

: >: >:

: >: >:

—

: >: >:

Connie=^..^=

: >: >:

:

: :

:

: : : Has anyone taken Serzone?  It was prescribed to me for chronic

:

: : : insomnia.

:

: : : Would appreciate knowing if it has worked for anyone, and side

:

effects

:

: : : you might have experienced.

: >: >:

:

: >: >:

: >: >:

: >:

:

: >:

: >:

:

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:

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:

Response:

Question:

Hi everyone. 4 weeks off Zoloft(for Anxiety)- coping fairly well, some days really suck and others are fine. Apparently I do my current job to well or the company is desperate for help.  I dunno, but I am flattered that I am being asked.  My situation is this. I do not need the money ( I guess I could probably make $2. more per hour ) but Christmas is coming – It would help out (If I can stand to shop long enough –  I hate the hustle and bustle) I consider myself fairly intellegent and enjoy doing my job well and having people notice. I do want to be challenged mentally as well as with the anxiety. I do want to "HELP" my struggling boss trying to do 2 + jobs. But: I do not want to supervise a bunch of whining brats. I do not to run around the office like my hair is on fire. I do want to sleep at nite. I tend to (Process) things in my head over and over. I have a week to decide. My main concern is my mental health – I don’t want to stir up anything- but yet I don’t know if just taking the EASIER way – Is the best way to go through the rest of my life. (I’m 31) I guess I feel somewhat obligated to try this out (after all "they think pretty highly of me")- the Supervisor said I could return to my current position if I want to -but could I look him in the eye and ask to be demoted? He probably would talk me out of it just as he is trying to talk me into it. I know that none of you know me or the company I work for- but what do you think? Bonnie Before you buy.

Response:

Glad to hear you’re doing  well off med,and at your job,  BUT  give it a lot of thought before you take the promotion.  I got the shaft recently with a co. who loved me, bragged about me, put me in charge of buying as well as asst. mngr, but, then when I got ill they didn’t want me, harrassed me, lied about me, etc.  It’s much better to be loved where you are than to be treated so poorly.   My last job before this one,  demoted me   for getting ill and missing to much hard long hours, and the only satisfaction is knowing you did your best, and whatever makes us ill, we don;t ask for.  Mine was asthma, no mental problem at that time.    Anyway -Good Luck in your future, and with love and concern I will pray whatever decesion you make that God helps you to make the right one.  We are each diff. LOL Charisma  

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi everyone. 4 weeks off Zoloft(for Anxiety)- coping fairly well, some days really suck and others are fine. Apparently I do my current job to well or the company is desperate for help.  I dunno, but I am flattered that I am being asked.  My situation is this. I do not need the money ( I guess I could probably make $2. more per hour ) but Christmas is coming – It would help out (If I can stand to shop long enough –  I hate the hustle and bustle) I consider myself fairly intellegent and enjoy doing my job well and having people notice. I do want to be challenged mentally as well as with the anxiety. I do want to "HELP" my struggling boss trying to do 2 + jobs. But: I do not want to supervise a bunch of whining brats. I do not to run around the office like my hair is on fire. I do want to sleep at nite. I tend to (Process) things in my head over and over. I have a week to decide. My main concern is my mental health – I don’t want to stir up anything- but yet I don’t know if just taking the EASIER way – Is the best way to go through the rest of my life. (I’m 31) I guess I feel somewhat obligated to try this out (after all "they think pretty highly of me")- the Supervisor said I could return to my current position if I want to -but could I look him in the eye and ask to be demoted? He probably would talk me out of it just as he is trying to talk me into it. I know that none of you know me or the company I work for- but what do you think? Bonnie

Dear Bonnie, Congratulations on being offered a promotion, I am sure that had to make you feel good Only you can decide whether or not you should go for it. I think it is great that your boss would allow you to go back to your old position if need be. I wish you much luck in whatever you decide!! Take care. Jackie ~*~You may be deceived if you trust too much, but you will live in torment if

Response:

Hi, bonnie, Pat yourself on the back for me – it is a tremendous feeling to be noticed and given the chance for a promotion.  About ten years ago I was in the same situation and it made me feel wonderful.  but for many reasons, one being anxiety, I didn’t accept and to this day I know I made the right decision. Absolutely love my job and wouldn’t give it up unless I had to.  Not many people are this fortunate to love their jobs but when you have one you do enjoy it makes going to work much easier.  good luck on your decision making and please let us know wht you decide. smiles, elise

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi everyone. 4 weeks off Zoloft(for Anxiety)- coping fairly well, some days really suck and others are fine. Apparently I do my current job to well or the company is desperate for help.  I dunno, but I am flattered that I am being asked.  My situation is this. I do not need the money ( I guess I could probably make $2. more per hour ) but Christmas is coming – It would help out (If I can stand to shop long enough –  I hate the hustle and bustle) I consider myself fairly intellegent and enjoy doing my job well and having people notice. I do want to be challenged mentally as well as with the anxiety. I do want to "HELP" my struggling boss trying to do 2 + jobs. But: I do not want to supervise a bunch of whining brats. I do not to run around the office like my hair is on fire. I do want to sleep at nite. I tend to (Process) things in my head over and over. I have a week to decide. My main concern is my mental health – I don’t want to stir up anything- but yet I don’t know if just taking the EASIER way – Is the best way to go through the rest of my life. (I’m 31) I guess I feel somewhat obligated to try this out (after all "they think pretty highly of me")- the Supervisor said I could return to my current position if I want to -but could I look him in the eye and ask to be demoted? He probably would talk me out of it just as he is trying to talk me into it. I know that none of you know me or the company I work for- but what do you think? Bonnie Dear Bonnie, Congratulations on being offered a promotion, I am sure that had to make you feel good Only you can decide whether or not you should go for it. I think it is great that your boss would allow you to go back to your old position if need be. I wish you much luck in whatever you decide!! Take care. Jackie ~*~You may be deceived if you trust too much, but you will live in torment if

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi everyone. 4 weeks off Zoloft(for Anxiety)- coping fairly well, some days really suck and others are fine. Apparently I do my current job to well or the company is desperate for help.  I dunno, but I am flattered that I am being asked.  My situation is this. I do not need the money ( I guess I could probably make $2. more per hour ) but Christmas is coming – It would help out (If I can stand to shop long enough –  I hate the hustle and bustle) I consider myself fairly intellegent and enjoy doing my job well and having people notice. I do want to be challenged mentally as well as with the anxiety. I do want to "HELP" my struggling boss trying to do 2 + jobs. But: I do not want to supervise a bunch of whining brats. I do not to run around the office like my hair is on fire. I do want to sleep at nite. I tend to (Process) things in my head over and over. I have a week to decide. My main concern is my mental health – I don’t want to stir up anything- but yet I don’t know if just taking the EASIER way – Is the best way to go through the rest of my life. (I’m 31) I guess I feel somewhat obligated to try this out (after all "they think pretty highly of me")- the Supervisor said I could return to my current position if I want to – but could I look him in the eye and ask to be demoted? He probably would talk me out of it just as he is trying to talk me into it. I know that none of you know me or the company I work for- but what do you think? Bonnie Before you buy. I haven’t decided for sure yet.  But I think I’m going to take a

chance and do the thing I fear most.  I appreciate all of your advice- I’m going into this with my eyes wide open- and if it doesn’t work out and they don’t let me do my old job- well then maybe it’s time to move on. (I fear that too) I will keep you posted. Best of Health to you all, Bonnie Before you buy.

Response:

Question:

Richard: My psychiatrist just increased my Prozac to 30MG per day.  He’s reluctant to switch me to anything else since I had previously had a good response from Prozac.  Just be careful in increasing doses….. I was told that as doses of SSRIs increase, so does the risk of seizures.  I would assume that the doses would have to be tremendously high, but it may be worth it to have your serum levels of Prozac tested.  Finally, you may have to pay out of pocket for the test as most insurance companies still consider testing serum levels of Prozac to be experimental.  I haven’t had my blood drawn yet, so I’ll find out if United will or will not pay. Jeff

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jeff,      Thank you. I take 3×20mg Prozac with oxycontin and dilaudid. I thought that I was not getting the same relief from depression as when I use to take only 20 mg Prozac before I was hurt. Very interesting. I hate to switch to a tri-cyclic a-d,  but I might have to. I’ll check with my doc. Thanks Peace,   Richard Sullivan

Response:

  There is a question that I need to find out from any of you (inyour experiences – or any pain mgmt. MDs out there) about what I can expectfrom the Oxycontin.  I am currently taking 20MG twice a day.  It makes thepain tolerable, but doesn’t really erase it.  Is this the best that I should expect?

Your doc could titrate your meds up til you get the relief you need.  Also, he could prescribe something for breakthru pain, such as MSIR,or  OXYir.

Response:

Richard: Thank you SO much for taking the time to write.  To add to this information that seems to be little discussed, my Psychiatrist told me about some of the downsides to pain meds: ravenous appetite decreased libido dry mucus membranes (from the anticholinergic <sp? effects) personality change (anywhere from mild to severe) Plus, anyone out there on any anti-depressants, particularly the SSRI (Prozac, Effexor, etc), you may want to have your doc have serum levels for all meds taken.  Evidently, Oxycontin and these SSRI meds use the SAME liver enzyme pathway (P450) for metabolism.  Depending on the individual person, you may not receive the full benefits from one of the meds as the other one is "winning" out for dominance in the bloodstream.  Also, I was cautioned NOT to take Elavil (Amytriptoline) as an adjunct for pain mgmt as Oxycodone will increase the serum levels of Elavil as much as 400%. I’m not an MD, nor a pharmacist, but I thought that I’d share this info from personal experience. Thanks again for your help! Jeff

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jeff,      I guess it depends on what is ailing us, but on my first visit to my pain clinic, the evaluating Doc told me I would always have pain. He told me I would have remissions where the pain is so low it is like there is none. Not to be a downer but as someone recently said, that’s why we are called chronic. As far as Oxycontin, I have had good luck with it 6 months as my main med. I have never found it to be much longer lasting than 4 or 5 hours, but I like the fact it is clean of additives. After being moved up to where I could take 80 mg 4/day, I still wake up with a pain " alarm clock ". Right know I am shooting for a reduction in my average daily pain. Something we don’t talk alot about is something you brought up. I have gained over 40lbs since I got hurt. One of my meds has given me a sweet tooth, and my suspicion has always been on the oxycontin. Good luck. Peace, Richard

Response:

Jeff,      Thank you. I take 3×20mg Prozac with oxycontin and dilaudid. I thought that I was not getting the same relief from depression as when I use to take only 20 mg Prozac before I was hurt. Very interesting. I hate to switch to a tri-cyclic a-d,  but I might have to. I’ll check with my doc. Thanks Peace,   Richard Sullivan

Response:

Jeff, I too was started on 20mg. Within 6 months I was taking 160 mg. every 6 to 8 hours (and even that wasn’t holding me, when the Dr. asked me  to tell him Honestly was it holding) I soon saw that in the end it came to taking the pain medicine same rate as I was taking short acting meds.I went off of oxycontin when I had to take 560mg. a day. My Doc.. believes in giving what it takes and knows  it’s not some personal vendetta towards him that my tolerance is high. For some Oxycontin works very, very well. For me I was put on 300mg of methadone a day along with 16 mg. of daludid(?) up to every 4 hours.(which is to much for me, knocks me out. (My docs say I have a system the size of a large You WILL find the right dose for yourself. Just be honest with your pain doc. Let us know how you are doing – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dear all: After 3 years of chronic pain, 2 failed back surgeries at L4/5 and a herniated disc at C5/6, I finally took my physical therapist’s advise and went to my neurologist for pain management.  He’s a super MD and is willing to work with me with the meds.  I am going to have a last stab at epidurals with a new, top-notch anesthesiologist at a private hospital where I live. At any rate, it looks as though I will have to be on opiate pain meds for a LONG time.  There is a question that I need to find out from any of you (in your experiences – or any pain mgmt. MDs out there) about what I can expect from the Oxycontin.  I am currently taking 20MG twice a day.  It makes the pain tolerable, but doesn’t really erase it.  Is this the best that I should expect?  Or, should I be expecting total relief from pain?  I am reluctant to take high doses due to the "lovely" side-effects that I already have – weight gain, sleep disturbance, etc. Any advice or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. TIA, Jeff

Response:

Thank you for taking the time to write a response….  just to give additional info, a neurosurgeon did the second operation at the lumbar area. The MRI and Myelogram showed that there is considerable scar tissue not only on the disc, but also on the nerve root itself.  When they did an EMG study, it showed the first level of nerve damage.  I have a feeling that’s why they’re reluctant to do any further surgeries.  If you know of any websites that would be useful in my researching new and cutting-edge procedures, I would REALLY appreciate it as my docs are grateful that I take an active part in my treatment and welcome the research that I find. Thanks again, Jeff

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jeff, If Oxycontin completely erased pain, I think it would be touted as the "Miracle Drug"!  It helps me greatly, but never totally takes the pain away. When you say that you are going to be on Opiates for a long, long time, –may I make a suggestion?  Do with it what you please, but, I had one failed surgery before I met my neuro-surgeon (an orthopaedic surgeon did the failed surgery) and at that time had the same opinion as you, "I am NEVER having surgery again" and "I will just take the pills for the rest of my life"…although taking them again at some point in time may be inevitable, I think you owe yourself a chance at letting your neuro take a shot at fixing it.  I did and what a difference!  It has been 5 weeks now since I have had surgery, and the difference was noticed the same day that I had surgery.  My back is not yet perfect, it may never be, but I am not having to take opiates at this time, I feel like I have my brain back. I don’t know, I just thought to myself, I don’t want to be "ruled" by a little pill for the rest of my life if at all possible, if this operation works, yay! if it helps, good! and well, if it does not make the difference, well, then I am no worse off than I was before. Food for thought, I hope this helps, good luck! Cfische Dear all: After 3 years of chronic pain, 2 failed back surgeries at L4/5 and a herniated disc at C5/6, I finally took my physical therapist’s advise and went to my neurologist for pain management.  He’s a super MD and is willing to work with me with the meds.  I am going to have a last stab at epidurals with a new, top-notch anesthesiologist at a private hospital where I live. At any rate, it looks as though I will have to be on opiate pain meds for a LONG time.  There is a question that I need to find out from any of you (in your experiences – or any pain mgmt. MDs out there) about what I can expect from the Oxycontin.  I am currently taking 20MG twice a day.  It makes the pain tolerable, but doesn’t really erase it.  Is this the best that I should expect?  Or, should I be expecting total relief from pain?  I am reluctant to take high doses due to the "lovely" side-effects that I already have – weight gain, sleep disturbance, etc. Any advice or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. TIA, Jeff

Response:

Jeff,      I guess it depends on what is ailing us, but on my first visit to my pain clinic, the evaluating Doc told me I would always have pain. He told me I would have remissions where the pain is so low it is like there is none. Not to be a downer but as someone recently said, that’s why we are called chronic. As far as Oxycontin, I have had good luck with it 6 months as my main med. I have never found it to be much longer lasting than 4 or 5 hours, but I like the fact it is clean of additives. After being moved up to where I could take 80 mg 4/day, I still wake up with a pain " alarm clock ". Right know I am shooting for a reduction in my average daily pain. Something we don’t talk alot about is something you brought up. I have gained over 40lbs since I got hurt. One of my meds has given me a sweet tooth, and my suspicion has always been on the oxycontin. Good luck. Peace, Richard

Response:

Jeff, If Oxycontin completely erased pain, I think it would be touted as the "Miracle Drug"!  It helps me greatly, but never totally takes the pain away. When you say that you are going to be on Opiates for a long, long time, –may I make a suggestion?  Do with it what you please, but, I had one failed surgery before I met my neuro-surgeon (an orthopaedic surgeon did the failed surgery) and at that time had the same opinion as you, "I am NEVER having surgery again" and "I will just take the pills for the rest of my life"…although taking them again at some point in time may be inevitable, I think you owe yourself a chance at letting your neuro take a shot at fixing it.  I did and what a difference!  It has been 5 weeks now since I have had surgery, and the difference was noticed the same day that I had surgery.  My back is not yet perfect, it may never be, but I am not having to take opiates at this time, I feel like I have my brain back. I don’t know, I just thought to myself, I don’t want to be "ruled" by a little pill for the rest of my life if at all possible, if this operation works, yay! if it helps, good! and well, if it does not make the difference, well, then I am no worse off than I was before. Food for thought, I hope this helps, good luck! Cfische

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dear all: After 3 years of chronic pain, 2 failed back surgeries at L4/5 and a herniated disc at C5/6, I finally took my physical therapist’s advise and went to my neurologist for pain management.  He’s a super MD and is willing to work with me with the meds.  I am going to have a last stab at epidurals with a new, top-notch anesthesiologist at a private hospital where I live. At any rate, it looks as though I will have to be on opiate pain meds for a LONG time.  There is a question that I need to find out from any of you (in your experiences – or any pain mgmt. MDs out there) about what I can expect from the Oxycontin.  I am currently taking 20MG twice a day.  It makes the pain tolerable, but doesn’t really erase it.  Is this the best that I should expect?  Or, should I be expecting total relief from pain?  I am reluctant to take high doses due to the "lovely" side-effects that I already have – weight gain, sleep disturbance, etc. Any advice or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. TIA, Jeff

Response:

Dear all: After 3 years of chronic pain, 2 failed back surgeries at L4/5 and a herniated disc at C5/6, I finally took my physical therapist’s advise and went to my neurologist for pain management.  He’s a super MD and is willing to work with me with the meds.  I am going to have a last stab at epidurals with a new, top-notch anesthesiologist at a private hospital where I live. At any rate, it looks as though I will have to be on opiate pain meds for a LONG time.  There is a question that I need to find out from any of you (in your experiences – or any pain mgmt. MDs out there) about what I can expect from the Oxycontin.  I am currently taking 20MG twice a day.  It makes the pain tolerable, but doesn’t really erase it.  Is this the best that I should expect?  Or, should I be expecting total relief from pain?  I am reluctant to take high doses due to the "lovely" side-effects that I already have – weight gain, sleep disturbance, etc. Any advice or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. TIA, Jeff

Response:

Question:

dragon wrote:

Guess what? My wife was diagnosed with severe OCD this morning.  I guess she may change her views.  What a mind trip! Calvin

Hi Calvin, What a strange twist. So, now what? — monkey http://pages.hotbot.com/health/sillychickens/ mon…@gilligansisland.net (to email me axe ‘gilligans’) —

Response:

dragon wrote:

Guess what? My wife was diagnosed with severe OCD this morning.  I guess she may change her views.  What a mind trip!

Wow!  I hope that she can change her views but only time will tell. Kind regards, Steve

Response:

Guess what? My wife was diagnosed with severe OCD this morning.  I guess she may change her views.  What a mind trip! Calvin * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

dragon wrote:

My wife says that if I take these medications, her and my son will be ashamed of me and that they are no different than illegal drugs.

and …

She is from China.  So she has a different view on everything due to her culture.

Hi Dragon, Like a few of the other posters said, you could take your wife to the doctor with you. Also, maybe you could locate a doctor that is Chinese and/or go to a Chinese Medicine clinic where maybe you could speak with someone who might help build a bridge between the ‘western’ medicine thought and the views your wife has. — monkey http://pages.hotbot.com/health/sillychickens/ mon…@gilligansisland.net (to email me axe ‘gilligans’) —

Response:

dragon wrote:

She is from China.  So she has a different view on everything due to her culture.

Hmmm… that’s a tough one. I can’t think of a better idea than fuzzybrain’s at the moment. I suppose that you could ignore her views but it could be a very unsatisfactory solution, especially if she has a lot of influence over your son. Kind regards, Steve

Response:

She is from China.  So she has a different view on everything due to her culture. Calvin Tait * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

Dear Dragon Sounds like, if you can arrange it, you and your wife might benefit from a session together with your MD or whomever it was that prescribed the drugs. — peace from fuzzybrain I’m not GOING crazy, I’m already there!!!! dragon <p_taitNOp_S…@yahoo.com.invalid

wrote in message

news:028f1bce.06d3b421@usw-ex0106-048.remarq.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Does anyone use Effexor for OCD?  I have taken Paxil, Zoloft, and now Effexor XR with Klonopin for OCD and Anxiety. I take 150 mg a day. I have been diagnosed only a month ago with OCD My wife says that if I take these medications, her and my son will be ashamed of me and that they are no different than illegal drugs. * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network

*

The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

dragon wrote:

Does anyone use Effexor for OCD?  I have taken Paxil, Zoloft, and now Effexor XR with Klonopin for OCD and Anxiety. I take 150 mg a day.

I used to take Paxil (50 mg) and I now take Effexor (375 mg).

I have been diagnosed only a month ago with OCD

It’s early days then. You may not notice any benefits from the Effexor for a while yet.

My wife says that if I take these medications, her and my son will be ashamed of me and that they are no different than illegal drugs.

What an extraordinary attitude! There must be some reason for your wife thinking like this. I think that fuzzybrain’s suggestion of letting your wife talk to your psychiatrist about medications was a very good one. Does she have some strong religious beliefs that perhaps forbid taking medications? She obviously feels very strongly about this and seems to also be prepared to influence your son’s thinking. Perhaps she regards OCD as a "weakness"? Can you talk with her to find out what’s going on? Kind regards, Steve

Response:

My wife says that if I take these medications, her and my son will be ashamed of me and that they are no different than illegal drugs.

That is terrible!  They are different from illegal drugs.  People use illegal drugs to get "high", to feel what a normal person cannot feel in a normal day of their lives. We use our medications to feel normal, to have a normal day in our life. Our brains (I would argue) seem to be lacking some important chemicals… and the drugs give us what we need to function close to normally. There is a myth among ‘normal’ people that prozac, and other drugs will make you happy.  They think it somehow magically makes you feel great everyday of your life ever after.  They have no clue what it’s really like to need these drugs. I’m so sorry that your wife feels that way.  If you need the drugs, take them. orlan

Response:

Does anyone use Effexor for OCD?  I have taken Paxil, Zoloft, and now Effexor XR with Klonopin for OCD and Anxiety. I take 150 mg a day. I have been diagnosed only a month ago with OCD My wife says that if I take these medications, her and my son will be ashamed of me and that they are no different than illegal drugs. * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

Would your wife be ashamed of you if you had high blood pressure and had to take medicine to control it? She is *seriously* misinformed about OCD and medication. I can not advise you specifically about Effexor because I take a different medication, but I *can* tell you that antidepressants have improved my life considerably. They *are* different than illegal drugs. No comparison. Maybe your doctor can talk some sense into her. Don’t let her fears and/or antipathy stop you from doing something that will probably help you in the long run. Regards, Ida dragon <p_taitNOp_S…@yahoo.com.invalid

wrote in message

news:028f1bce.06d3b421@usw-ex0106-048.remarq.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Does anyone use Effexor for OCD?  I have taken Paxil, Zoloft, and now Effexor XR with Klonopin for OCD and Anxiety. I take 150 mg a day. I have been diagnosed only a month ago with OCD My wife says that if I take these medications, her and my son will be ashamed of me and that they are no different than illegal drugs. * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network

*

The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

Question:

I am a 25 female who has been on Paxil and Zoloft for anxiety attacks. I went off of them two years ago but now my anxiety is back. The doctor wanted me back on them but being I had very bad withdrawl going off I said no. So he gave me prozac which made me feel crappy and very tired. Now he put me on Wellbutrin because I also suffer from depression but I am afraid to start it because of side effects. Has anyone been on this realtively new drug? I occasionally take Xanax but I don’t very often because it makes me so tired, even on a low dose.   Can anyone recommend a good drug without bad side effects for anxiety? Also does anyone get really run down and achey like feelings from anxiety? I am constantly tired and feel flu-like but the doctors say I’m fine. I don’t feel very fine. Thanks, ERIN

Response:

Hi Erin, I have anxiety and panic attacks and depression. I just started about a month ago on Effexor XR. So far it has been working well without any bad side effects for anxiety. In fact very few side effects at all. I’m also on a low dose of Xanax. I’ve never taken Wellbutrin so I can’t help you there. Your feelings of being run down and achy could be coming from the fact that you’re depressed. Finding the right doctor and the right meds can be tough. I hope you find something that works for you soon. Don’t give up! Best wishes, LInda

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am a 25 female who has been on Paxil and Zoloft for anxiety attacks. I went off of them two years ago but now my anxiety is back. The doctor wanted me back on them but being I had very bad withdrawl going off I said no. So he gave me prozac which made me feel crappy and very tired. Now he put me on Wellbutrin because I also suffer from depression but I am afraid to start it because of side effects. Has anyone been on this realtively new drug? I occasionally take Xanax but I don’t very often because it makes me so tired, even on a low dose.   Can anyone recommend a good drug without bad side effects for anxiety? Also does anyone get really run down and achey like feelings from anxiety? I am constantly tired and feel flu-like but the doctors say I’m fine. I don’t feel very fine. Thanks, ERIN

Response:

Hi – I’m like you Erin- also had horrible time coming off Paxil – so I’d hate to repeat that. I took Wellbutrin about a year ago. Started out w/ one 150mg each morning. (about a week) Then doc wanted me to take 1 in a.m. and 1p.m. Had to stop this as it made me very jittery and could not sleep at nite. Did fine on just the one 150mg each a.m. Then I went to one every other day- Didn’t really help me w/ anxiety. Then went to Serzone- Serzone helped me somewhat but I had to stop as it gave me heart palps and an unexplainable rash ! (heart palps- I guess it didnt help w/ anxiety after all). Now I am trying Celexa- very drowsy right now in the first wks – so if you feel run down, you may not want to try. Have you been checked for thryoid problems ? I was just diagnosed w/ hypothyroid and symptoms are no energy, depression, inability to tolerate cold (to name a few). simple test in doc’s office- and treatment relatively easy- med (that is very inexpensive). good luck, kim – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Erin, I have anxiety and panic attacks and depression. I just started about a month ago on Effexor XR. So far it has been working well without any bad side effects for anxiety. In fact very few side effects at all. I’m also on a low dose of Xanax. I’ve never taken Wellbutrin so I can’t help you there. Your feelings of being run down and achy could be coming from the fact that you’re depressed. Finding the right doctor and the right meds can be tough. I hope you find something that works for you soon. Don’t give up! Best wishes, LInda I am a 25 female who has been on Paxil and Zoloft for anxiety attacks. I went off of them two years ago but now my anxiety is back. The doctor wanted me back on them but being I had very bad withdrawl going off I said no. So he gave me prozac which made me feel crappy and very tired. Now he put me on Wellbutrin because I also suffer from depression but I am afraid to start it because of side effects. Has anyone been on this realtively new drug? I occasionally take Xanax but I don’t very often because it makes me so tired, even on a low dose.   Can anyone recommend a good drug without bad side effects for anxiety? Also does anyone get really run down and achey like feelings from anxiety? I am constantly tired and feel flu-like but the doctors say I’m fine. I don’t feel very fine. Thanks, ERIN

Response:

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <major snippage I’ve been in constant pain for months and they’ve run more tests than I wanted them to, cat scans and ultrasounds in addition to blood tests. They tell me that pain can be from being BP. Are you saying not? brownee Brownee, I’ve had chronic back pain since a teenager, some…er…30 years ago. I even had an operation on a couple of disks back in ‘84, but was still in a lot of pain and used a cane to get around, had a handicapped plate, the whole bit.  When I started on my first antidepressant, I became pain free within three months.  That was 5+ years ago, and I don’t even remember where my cane is now.  So in my case, the pain was certainly related at least to the depressive side of bipolar;  but since I’ve been hypomanic nearly all my life, I’d vote that it’s the BP making me feel the pain.

That makes me think — an occasionally meritorious thing to do IMO — if not carried to excess of course. I wonder if BP-heightened sensitivities could somehow magnify small "normal" aches and pains into what becomes excruciating sensations for us??? It’s like the pain signals are being processed through a mental amplifier before impacting upon the portions of our brains that register pain. Hummm …. So it is all in my head after all. <G Brian

James

Response:

hey mc, same here. recently increased zoloft and all achey all over. also last summer while manic and on no meds i was in terrible pain that i couldn’t explain–neck, back, joints, bones, feet—even my hair hurt. must be that hypersensitivity or maybe the psychic pain manifesting as physical.     best, lny

Response:

Hi Brownee–I have major aches and pains, too. I’ve blamed it on fibromyalgia–or something– for quite some time…… Just read tonight that one of the more obscure side effects of Zoloft ( and the other SSRI’s, I assume ) is major joint aches…..Interesting, since I’ve been alot worse lately and have also recently upped my dose of Z. You might also do a search on Substance P. It’s a neurotransmitter that is related to pain transmission and they’ve also found it to have marvelous AD effects…..They’re making it sound like it’s gonna be the next generation of successful ADs…..and pain relievers.   mc

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <major snippage I’ve been in constant pain for months and they’ve run more tests than I wanted them to, cat scans and ultrasounds in addition to blood tests. They tell me that pain can be from being BP. Are you saying not? brownee Brownee, I’ve had chronic back pain since a teenager, some…er…30 years ago. I even had an operation on a couple of disks back in ‘84, but was still in a lot of pain and used a cane to get around, had a handicapped plate, the whole bit.  When I started on my first antidepressant, I became pain free within three months.  That was 5+ years ago, and I don’t even remember where my cane is now.  So in my case, the pain was certainly related at least to the depressive side of bipolar;  but since I’ve been hypomanic nearly all my life, I’d vote that it’s the BP making me feel the pain.

Hey, thanks for giving me some hope that there will be some relief to this pain. I have a lot of joint pain which they insist is not arthritis and sometimes move so stiffly and awkwardly that I scare the cats. I was not looking forward to that for the rest of my life. That makes me think — an occasionally meritorious thing to do IMO — if not carried to excess of course. I wonder if BP-heightened sensitivities could somehow magnify small "normal" aches and pains into what becomes excruciating sensations for us??? It’s like the pain signals are being processed through a mental amplifier before impacting upon the portions of our brains that register pain. Hummm …. So it is all in my head after all. <G Brian James

That’s kind of what I was thinking throughout the "intrusions" thread. Maybe it’s all the same thing. Maybe we’re just so hypersensitive to everything. On the other hand, when I had surgery to relieve pain, the doctors felt that, based on my behavior, I could wait until the next non-emergency surgery, 2 weeks away. When I woke up, the doctor was there apologizing for making me wait those 2 weeks — what he’d found inside would have made him schedule immediate surgery if he’d known. Maybe we learn to "maintain" in front of the "normals"? Well, speaking of intrusions, today was a nice rainy day in the NW and I didn’t have to leave the house today or even do too much around the house and got to enjoy the peaceful sound of rain on the skylight. No kids shrieking, no bass thrumming, no basketballs thwumping. no dogs barking. Just rain. It was wonderful. brownee

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The following link is with a collection of links about poisonous plants: http://www.ScienceOxygen.com/botany95.html It does not provide any answer directly. But you might start from there to check the associated information.

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Hi All, I have been paging through the various seed catalogs and have seen a wide variety of flowers I’d love to grow.  I have been disappointed in many cases when I saw that Thompson & Morgan listed them as "poisonous".

Don’t be disappointed, it’s a fact that many plants are poisonous, and T&M are simply helping remind the reader of the fact. Two or three seeds of Ricinus can kill a child if eaten, and Aconitum plant fluids are very deadly, as may be the seeds as well. On the other hand, it would take eating a lot of Datura to kill anybody. Most of the buttercup family are fairly poisonous (Aconites, Ranunculus, Trollius, etc.). There are so many plants that are poisonous, though fewer are quickly fatal at small dosages, that it is not really feasible to eliminate them from one’s garden. I would avoid planting Castor beans and Aconites around children’s playgrounds, though, especially, and perhaps some other plants. It is generally wise to teach all children never to put any plants in their mouths. When I was a kid I remember sucking on honeysuckles and stuff we called ’sourgrass’ and lots of other things, with no ill effects. But kids may experiment beyond what local lore has as ‘edible’. Sucking the juice out of the friendly looking Lily of the Valley can be deadly.

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I have been paging through the various seed catalogs and have seen a wide variety of flowers I’d love to grow.  I have been disappointed in many cases when I saw that Thompson & Morgan listed them as "poisonous". This is the case for datura, sweet peas, four o’ clocks, many varieties of nicotiana and others.  Other catalogs (Burpees, Select Seeds, WFF) do not give a similar warning for many of the flowers.  I’m not a toxicologist and have no way of knowing how "poisonous" these plants are. Can anyone shed some light on this subject?

Steve, When a plant is labeled as poisonous, the level of toxicity may not be known.  The range could be anything from deadly to just causing a mild rash. The toxicity of the plant should be considered in two major areas. The first deals with children and animals.  If you have children, they may come in contact, or even ingest, the plants in your garden.  The same is true for pets or farm animals.  The presence of poisonous plants needs to be considered. The second area of concern deals with the gardener’s safety.  Direct contact with the plants may cause negative effects.  Taking precautions like long sleeves and gloves may be all it takes.  The warning of being poisonous in the catalog may be just a flag for you to be careful. If toxicity is a concern before you buy, check out exactly what level of poisoning your dealing with on the plants and flowers you are considering.   For a general guide to toxicity of plants, check out "Take Care With Plants" at –          http://www.ucdmc.ucdavis.edu/poison_control/plants.html This is part of the internet edition The Poison Center Answer Book prepared by the University of California, Davis, Medical Center (UCDMC) Regional Poison Control Center. Hope this helps.  Good luck with your garden. Marc

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Hi All, I have been paging through the various seed catalogs and have seen a wide variety of flowers I’d love to grow.  I have been disappointed in many cases when I saw that Thompson & Morgan listed them as "poisonous". This is the case for datura, sweet peas, four o’ clocks, many varieties of nicotiana and others.  Other catalogs (Burpees, Select Seeds, WFF) do not give a similar warning for many of the flowers.  I’m not a toxicologist and have no way of knowing how "poisonous" these plants are. Can anyone shed some light on this subject? Steve Cook Macungie, PA USDA

Many of the plants referred to as ‘poisonous’ are not very toxic. Some, like holly or mistletoe, will cause a mild stomach ache or the like.  Those plants that are very toxic should be considered carefully.  It is confusing when many varieties of plants are categorized as being toxic or poisonous when most of them aren’t really poisonous enough to be of any consequence.  If you have any doubt, ask a nurseryman in your area for advice.  For reference some common plants which are highly toxic are as follows:         Dieffenbachia         Oleander         Rhubarb (green parts of leaves)         Digitalis (foxgloves)         some cacti         most Solanum sp.         Datura (angel’s trumpets)         You should also consider that many plants with milky sap are also very toxic, as are the pits of many fruits (cyanide).  Even the rinds of some fruits like passion fruit have been found to be toxic enough for consideration.  Likewise, some plants often listed as poisonous, but not much so are as follows:         Philodendron         Grasses         Ficus

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Hi All, I have been paging through the various seed catalogs and have seen a wide variety of flowers I’d love to grow.  I have been disappointed in many cases when I saw that Thompson & Morgan listed them as "poisonous". This is the case for datura, sweet peas, four o’ clocks, many varieties of nicotiana and others.  Other catalogs (Burpees, Select Seeds, WFF) do not give a similar warning for many of the flowers.  I’m not a toxicologist and have no way of knowing how "poisonous" these plants are. Can anyone shed some light on this subject?

Hi Steve, The warning of poisonous in your T&M catalogue is merely a courtesy, most catalogues don’t bother. Datura is a hallucinogenic (sp?), nicotanias contain nicotine and so on. (Although I’m curious about the sweet peas, I’ve never heard there was a problem with them) Don’t let the warning deter you from planting these plants. Most garden plants are only poisonous if they are eaten, not by handling. Even edible plants can be poisonous if not used correctly, for example, more that one tablespoon of fresh rosemary leaves can cause a toxic reaction in an adult human and rhubard *leaves* (not stalks) can cause internal bleeding, severe stomach cramps and poisoning. Some plants can kill, some can make you very sick, while others are perfectly safe. The only time you need to truly worry about this is when very young children will be in and around plantings. Children are very likely to put leaves and flowers into their mouths. Small children should never be left unattended in a garden where the possibility of poison exist. (Actually the period in that last sentence should probably fall after the word ‘garden’.) There are several books that refer to the toxicity of plants, unfortunately I don’t have any references for you, perhaps someone else will. The rule for anyone though is: never, *never*, NEVER eat from a plant, in the garden or the wild, unless you know exactly what it is and whether it is safe. But Steve, don’t let the poisonous label deter you from planting the flowers in your garden unless you have the above-mentioned small children. If you do, check out the edible flower thread that is currently going on. You can get some suggestions for ’safe’ plants there. Hope this helps Marianne — As soon as I have something important to say, I’ll put it here.

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I have been paging through the various seed catalogs and have seen a wide variety of flowers I’d love to grow.  I have been disappointed in many cases when I saw that Thompson & Morgan listed them as "poisonous". This is the case for datura, sweet peas, four o’ clocks, many varieties of nicotiana and others.  Other catalogs (Burpees, Select Seeds, WFF) do not give a similar warning for many of the flowers.  I’m not a toxicologist and have no way of knowing how "poisonous" these plants are. Can anyone shed some light on this subject?

The real question is whether it matters to you that the plants are poisonous. I guess the seed companies are just trying to protect themselves from dorks who try to sue them ("I added those Sweet Pea seeds to soup and they poisoned me – it’s your fault!"). There are few if any species which will harm you unless you actually eat the seeds or plant, and unless the plant actually looks attractive to eat, this is most unlikely (with the attractive berries of Deadly Nightshade – Atropa belladonna being an exception). So long as *you* aren’t going to eat the plant, and you are satisfied that young children won’t, then there’s little to worry about. I guess I didn’t answer your question of *how* poisonous they are! In the case of the deadly nightshade – very! I’d guess the Sweet Pea seeds are like many other dried pulses (peas/beans) that you can buy to eat – not good for you unless soaked and boiled. Nicotiana – they make cigarettes out of it. Datura – well discussed in recent threads, but a very attractive plant. I don’t know about Four o’clock – Mirabilis jalapa, except that I’ve seen the ‘poisonous’ notices on it too. — Clarke Brunt (CCB), Principal Software Engineer, Laser-Scan Ltd, Science Park, Milton Rd, CAMBRIDGE, CB4 4FY, England. Tel: (+44) (0)1223 420414; Fax: 420044

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Hi All, I have been paging through the various seed catalogs and have seen a wide variety of flowers I’d love to grow.  I have been disappointed in many cases when I saw that Thompson & Morgan listed them as "poisonous". This is the case for datura, sweet peas, four o’ clocks, many varieties of nicotiana and others.  Other catalogs (Burpees, Select Seeds, WFF) do not give a similar warning for many of the flowers.  I’m not a toxicologist and have no way of knowing how "poisonous" these plants are. Can anyone shed some light on this subject? Steve Cook Macungie, PA USDA Z6 — * Air Products and Chemicals, Inc.          Tel. (610) 481-2135     * * 7201 Hamilton Blvd.                       FAX  (610) 481-8803     * * Allentown, PA 18195                                               * * USA                                                               * *             Emacs – the choice of a GNU generation                * * Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are those of the author.  * *             Any resemblance between my opinions and those of Air  * *             Products is purely coincidental…                    *

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