Question:

Jim:  Have you ever had a cardiac workup? Bob

Response:

I’ve told her.  She didn’t seem highly concerned.  In fact, she began tapering my other meds.  (My peak flow was up.)  So now what? Aleta – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi!     If your albuterol (which is the same thing as salbuterol) isn’t working – tell your doctor NOW!  When you have a severe attack albuterol and drugs related are the first line of treatment used to get you breathing again.  It is very serious if these types of drugs do not work for you as it gives the emergeny treatment team few options to use to improve your breathing quickly.  Please don’t panic when you read this – there can be many reasons why it doesn’t seem to be working for you such as inhalation techniques, expiration dates, over reliance on rescue medication, etc. but do look into this now. Marion B.Sc.Pharmacy And I use Albuterol, and it’s never let me down, either. Good thing there are medications that always work! So what does it mean when your albuterol inhaler doesn’t do anything?  My asthma is fairly mild, but when I get an attack, I cough and cough.  Sometimes the albuterol stopes it right away, but other times it doesn’t seem to have any effect.  I don’t notice any difference in the coughing between the times that it does work and when it doesn’t (which I would expect if something other than asthma caused the non-responsive cough). Aleta

Response:

Hi!    If your albuterol (which is the same thing as salbuterol)

snip Marion B.Sc.Pharmacy

Hi, "Salbutamol" [not salbuterol]  is the WHO recommended name generally in use outside of the USA for  "Albuterol". See Asthma FAQ medications: ftp://rtfm.mit.edu/pub/usenet/news.answers/medicine/asthma/medications  Colleen

Response:

Hi Colleen! I see I made a spelling error. Thanks for pointing it out, Marion – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi!    If your albuterol (which is the same thing as salbuterol) snip Marion B.Sc.Pharmacy Hi, "Salbutamol" [not salbuterol]  is the WHO recommended name generally in use outside of the USA for  "Albuterol". See Asthma FAQ medications: ftp://rtfm.mit.edu/pub/usenet/news.answers/medicine/asthma/medications  Colleen

Response:

And I use Albuterol, and it’s never let me down, either. Good thing there are medications that always work!

So what does it mean when your albuterol inhaler doesn’t do anything?  My asthma is fairly mild, but when I get an attack, I cough and cough.  Sometimes the albuterol stopes it right away, but other times it doesn’t seem to have any effect.  I don’t notice any difference in the coughing between the times that it does work and when it doesn’t (which I would expect if something other than asthma caused the non-responsive cough). Aleta

Response:

And I use Albuterol, and it’s never let me down, either. Good thing there are medications that always work! So what does it mean when your albuterol inhaler doesn’t do anything?  My asthma is fairly mild, but when I get an attack, I cough and cough.  Sometimes the albuterol stopes it right away, but other times it doesn’t seem to have any effect.  I don’t notice any difference in the coughing between the times that it does work and when it doesn’t (which I would expect if something other than asthma caused the non-responsive cough). Aleta

Not all cough is caused by asthma; you could have a co-existing condition contributing to the cough. See: http://www.ummed.edu/dept/pulmonary/irwin/pitfalls.htm Common Pitfalls in Managing Patients with Chronic Cough "If patients continue to complain of persistently troublesome cough even after an extensive evaluation, reconsider the following pitfalls in management as possible contributing factors: 4.not considering that more than one condition is  simultaneously contributing to the cough;

Response:

Hi!     If your albuterol (which is the same thing as salbuterol) isn’t working – tell your doctor NOW!  When you have a severe attack albuterol and drugs related are the first line of treatment used to get you breathing again.  It is very serious if these types of drugs do not work for you as it gives the emergeny treatment team few options to use to improve your breathing quickly.  Please don’t panic when you read this – there can be many reasons why it doesn’t seem to be working for you such as inhalation techniques, expiration dates, over reliance on rescue medication, etc. but do look into this now. Marion B.Sc.Pharmacy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – And I use Albuterol, and it’s never let me down, either. Good thing there are medications that always work! So what does it mean when your albuterol inhaler doesn’t do anything?  My asthma is fairly mild, but when I get an attack, I cough and cough.  Sometimes the albuterol stopes it right away, but other times it doesn’t seem to have any effect.  I don’t notice any difference in the coughing between the times that it does work and when it doesn’t (which I would expect if something other than asthma caused the non-responsive cough). Aleta

Response:

I seem to get a violent chest compressing asthma attack in the last few years once a day or so, that feels like somoene is sitting on my chest and I am about to strangulate. I have life long asthma and it is much worse in the spring and fall, I am on Flovent, and here is my point: Ventolin is amazing! I have used it for 20 years, but it is still amazing the little off blue inhaler buddy has saved my life hundreds of times.

Response:

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – x-no-archive:yes x-no-archive:yes The crappiest part of working a real late-night shift is seeing the sun come up in the morning while you’re still there. Ugh. There’s just something about that that feels wrong, no matter what. Sure, before I started this shift I would see the sunrise from home, but it’s different in some way when you’re sitting at a desk and look up to see the horizon turning that pale pinkish-grey colour. There’s something spiritually uncomfortable about it. It is worth it, though. My team started working in the new building last night, and we got our pick of desks. I have a nice, roomy cubicle and sit by my hubby, right across from another woman I’ve become very good friends with. I’ve never had my own cubicle before. It makes me feel so employed! It’s *my* cubicle that I don’t have to timeshare with anyone else. Now I can brighten it up with pictures of my kitties. oooh. i’m jealous. i want a cubicle. It’s fun. Except my computer is white. At the other building we had sleek, sexy black computers, and now we have generic looking whitish ones. Ah, well. Black would have clashed with the baby-poo yellow of the walls, I suppose.

Gosh! It never crossed my mind to think how the color of my computer in my office goes with the color of the walls. Is it because I am a boy??? One month, three days, 8 hours, 22 minutes and 2 seconds. 858 cigarettes not smoked, saving $133.10. Life saved: 2 days, 23 hours, 30 minutes. — Teilhard The Extraterrestrial

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – x-no-archive:yes The crappiest part of working a real late-night shift is seeing the sun come up in the morning while you’re still there. Ugh. There’s just something about that that feels wrong, no matter what. Sure, before I started this shift I would see the sunrise from home, but it’s different in some way when you’re sitting at a desk and look up to see the horizon turning that pale pinkish-grey colour. There’s something spiritually uncomfortable about it. It is worth it, though. My team started working in the new building last night, and we got our pick of desks. I have a nice, roomy cubicle and sit by my hubby, right across from another woman I’ve become very good friends with. I’ve never had my own cubicle before. It makes me feel so employed! It’s *my* cubicle that I don’t have to timeshare with anyone else. Now I can brighten it up with pictures of my kitties.

Hey, I have a cubicle too. But it is so small, that it would be too personal to have a visitor in there, LOL. One month, three days, 8 hours, 14 minutes and 56 seconds. 858 cigarettes not smoked, saving $133.08. Life saved: 2 days, 23 hours, 30 minutes. — Teilhard The Extraterrestrial

Response:

Question:

I have suffered with severe sinus infections for the last ten years. When I wake with a headache, I dread getting out of bed.  You are at tmes totally incapacitated with these.  Nothing ever helped.  Even antibiotics did not do the job at this point.  I read an article in a magazine about the benefits of drinking a teaspoon of apple cider vinegar in an 8 oz. glass of water each day.  I did more research on this and found that it is supposed to be very beneficial.  Knock on wood, since I started this regimen about 6 weeks ago, I have not had a serious sinus headache.  If I wake with the sinus stuffiness and drainage, the apple cider vinegar and water quickly relieve the condition.  Good luck to all who have this problem.  

Response:

How odd… i heard two tablespoons of warm apple cider vinegar was good for the arthristis…  wonder what else it is good for except maybe salad dressing?! -pam – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have suffered with severe sinus infections for the last ten years. When I wake with a headache, I dread getting out of bed.  You are at tmes totally incapacitated with these.  Nothing ever helped.  Even antibiotics did not do the job at this point.  I read an article in a magazine about the benefits of drinking a teaspoon of apple cider vinegar in an 8 oz. glass of water each day.  I did more research on this and found that it is supposed to be very beneficial.  Knock on wood, since I started this regimen about 6 weeks ago, I have not had a serious sinus headache.  If I wake with the sinus stuffiness and drainage, the apple cider vinegar and water quickly relieve the condition.  Good luck to all who have this problem.  

Response:

Hi Pam and everyone else: Finally got the strength to go back to a doctor only a kinder one this time and she gave me a five day treatment of Zithromax. It, along with a good OTC saline solution and Nasalcrom is working wonders for me, but I might get some more antibiotics because five days may not be enough to completely cure it. Also thinking of going to allergist to solve the flare ups once and for all,:) Happy Holidays to all:) Coral. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – About a week ago, I started noticing: I had a pain going across my forehead and between my eyes, felt like my face was hurting me, My nose was stuffier than usual, (I always have a stuffy nose) Coughing up thick brown phlem. Post nasal drip Feeling constantly dizzy all day long, has lasted about 3 days now. Constantly running to the bathroom to spit up phlem. Ears and hearing are annoying me. I went to a doctor a few days ago, and had Is this a Sinus Infection? This is what I had starting Dec1st.  Coughing earaches sore throat and sore chest.  Primary doctor put me on 6 days of antibiotics for 6 days.  A week later came back and went to allergist and he gave me a shot of cortisone and another double round of antibiotics and I am fine.  This is your difference where the primary doctor does not have time for all the patients.  A specialist will go a step further and cover all the bases.  I did have blaring of vision and dizziness.  See an allergist.  You woun’t be sorry. chest X ray Spirometry test EKG blood test. all were good and the doctor delcared me healthy, BUT he didnt check my nose for imflammation or give me a sinus Xray, my question is, could I have a sinus infection, is feeling dizzy a possible symptom with Sinus infectioned. — Re:  Serevent and Flovent.  My biggest problem is not being permitted to Before you buy.

Response:

Finally got the strength to go back to a doctor only a kinder one this time and she gave me a five day treatment of Zithromax but I might get some more antibiotics because five days may not be enough to completely cure it.

Zythromax is different than most antibioyics and 5 days is like taking 10 days of them.  If I understand correctly, it keeps working for days after you stop it.

Response:

I thank you very large. reble

me too Ellis…this has really helped over the last couple of days…thanks eric "the alternative to seeing things in black and white is to see them in full colour"

Response:

Hi Pam and everyone else: Finally got the strength to go back to a doctor only a kinder one this time and she gave me a five day treatment of Zithromax. It, along with a good OTC saline solution and Nasalcrom is working wonders for me, but I might get some more antibiotics because five days may not be enough to completely cure it. Also thinking of going to allergist to solve the flare ups once and

for Sinus Infections in the winter are caused from being in the house where the air is too dry.  We are going to kick up our humidifier on the furnace and hope that will help.  Also using ocean spray in the nostrils should help.  I am finnally at the point that I am not coughing after three weeks and the visit to the allergist.  I still have a lot of days to finish on the antibiotics but I am finally starting to feel good.  However, I do find that the 24 hr Clairitn-d keeps me from sleeping so I am going to take the 12 hr.  Hope everyone else gets better.  I think I will also use the nasal chrome.  And hopefully all my problems will disappear for good. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – all,:) Happy Holidays to all:) Coral. About a week ago, I started noticing: I had a pain going across my forehead and between my eyes, felt like my face was hurting me, My nose was stuffier than usual, (I always have a stuffy nose) Coughing up thick brown phlem. Post nasal drip Feeling constantly dizzy all day long, has lasted about 3 days now. Constantly running to the bathroom to spit up phlem. Ears and hearing are annoying me. I went to a doctor a few days ago, and had Is this a Sinus Infection? This is what I had starting Dec1st.  Coughing earaches sore throat and sore chest.  Primary doctor put me on 6 days of antibiotics for 6 days.  A week later came back and went to allergist and he gave me a shot of cortisone and another double round of antibiotics and I am fine.  This is your difference where the primary doctor does not have time for all the patients.  A specialist will go a step further and cover all the bases.  I did have blaring of vision and dizziness.  See an allergist.  You woun’t be sorry. chest X ray Spirometry test EKG blood test. all were good and the doctor delcared me healthy, BUT he didnt check my nose for imflammation or give me a sinus Xray, my question is, could I have a sinus infection, is feeling dizzy a possible symptom with Sinus infectioned. — Re:  Serevent and Flovent.  My biggest problem is not being permitted to Before you buy.

– Re:  Serevent and Flovent.  My biggest problem is not being permitted to Before you buy.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – About a week ago, I started noticing: I had a pain going across my forehead and between my eyes,  felt like my face was hurting me, My nose was stuffier than usual, (I always have a stuffy nose) Coughing up thick brown phlem. Post nasal drip Feeling constantly dizzy all day long, has lasted about 3 days now. Constantly running to the bathroom to spit up phlem. Ears and hearing are annoying me. —cut—-  The first thing to try for rhinitis is Nasalcrom (cromolyn) nasal spray, now OTC. It has virtually no side effects. I also recommend saline washes; the simple way is mix some warm salt water, inhale from palm of hand. Ellis — How much saline solution are you talking about? Is this essentially the same a using a saline nasal spary such as "Ocean" available OTC? reble OTC saline solution could be used, but it’s expensive. You could take a half a cup of warm water, sprinkle in some salt; pour into palm of one hand and inhale with one nostril, tip head back so it starts to run down throat, cough and spit out. Repeat on the other side, as is necessary to clear the mucus. If there is not enough or too much salt, there will be a burning sensation. Here’s a link with a recipe: http://www.aos-jax.com/nasal.htm Excerpt: "What is nasal irrigation? This is a procedure in which the nasal cavity is washed with a soothing solution. It can be done by using a bulb syringe or an electric dental device (such as Water Pik). Why would I need to do nasal irrigation? People with upper airway problems may have dry nasal membranes. Also, the mucous secretion is thick and the hairs are not able to move the mucus out. In some people, the mucus dries and forms crusts that interfere with sinus drainage. Crusting and poor drainage also causes headaches, infection, and bad odors. By using nose drops and nasal irrigation, this problem can be relieved and comfort restored. Irrigation with a Bulb Syringe or an Electric Dental Device Equipment needed: Bulb syringe or electric dental device (Water Pik) Irrigation tips (if using Water Pik) Saline solution: One gallon of boiled or distilled water 4 teaspoons of sea salt or canning salt 1 teaspoon of Arm & Hammer baking soda Solution may be warmed prior to irrigation. Always use caution if warming solution to avoid excessive heating. Have a thermometer handy to measure the temperature. Temperature should be 103

Question:

Can anyone tell me if Pulmicort is as effective as I have heard from people? Side effects?  I am currently on intal, becloforte and singulair but my asthma is not completly controlled. Thanks Scott

Response:

Dear Scott, Pulmicort is approximately the same potency as Becloforte.  The most significant difference between them is that Becloforte is a traditional spray inhaler and Pulmicort is a dry powder inhaler without aerosol propellant.  Some people find that dry powder inhalers are much easier to use than an aerosol.  Many people find it difficult to inhale from spray front moving at more than 100 kilometers per hour.  For such people, switching to Pulmicort (or a comparable dry powder inhaler like Flovent Diskus) can improve asthma control.  If patients can use an aerosol inhaler and a dry powder inhaler with equal ease, Becloforte and Pulmicort will generally produce similar clinical benefit.  Has your doctor, pharmacist or other caregiver watched you using your inhaler to be sure that you can use it adequately? Your treatment regimen seems a bit confused.  Most asthma experts find that there is little benefit from adding Intal to a high concentration inhaled steroid like Becloforte.  Is your asthma being monitored by a specialist? Good luck. — Kenneth Chapman Director Asthma Centre of The Toronto Hospital Professor of Medicine University of Toronto

Response:

I have moderate asthma and have been on Pulmicort since 2/98.  I used to take Flovent 220mcg.  I was switched to Pulmicort as it did not have the systemic steroid side effects as Flovent. I have found Pulmicort to be very effective in controlling my asthma.  It has been used in europe for years prior to being approved for use here in the States.

Response:

One thing that is important is the way you take the medication. Do not tip the inhaler upward when delivering a dose.  It is easier to tip you head back slightly to open the airway and inhale the medication. It take a little time to get used to using this inhaler versus the propellant type inhaler we where all used to taking.  Good Luck!  

Response:

Can anyone tell me if Pulmicort is as effective as I have heard from people? Side effects?  I am currently on intal, becloforte and singulair but my asthma is not completly controlled. Thanks Scott If you would like current and past scientific research material, then I

suggest you refer to the internet site http://www.nlm.nih.gov/databases/freemedl.html and then click on INTERNET GRATEFUL MED and enter in the Query Terms: pulmicort, side effects, and efficacy, which should result in 17 articles you can look up in your nearest health science library or you can get an overview of the information by reading the abstracts. Budesonide, generic for Pulmicort,  is the first corticosteroid dry powder inhaler for the maintenance treatment of asthma that is used in prophylactic drug therapy. The usual dosage is 2-3 puffs per day in which there is 200mcg/puff. The drug should improve nighttime symptoms and reduce the dependence on direct beta-2-agonist bronchodilators such as albuterol sulfate. The most common associated side effects are respiratory infection, headache, orad candidiasis, dysphonia, and pharyngitis, but inhaled corticosteroids are relatively safe and effective anti-inflammatory medications. However, as with any medication, your doctor should monitor your drug therapy and any switches/add-ons to your current medications. Also, a common consumer complaint is that the drug is very fine so you might not see the drug inhalation. Intal, a mast cell stabilizer, and Singulair, a leukotriene modifier, act on different steps of the body’s reaction asthmatic attacks. There are other internet sites available to consumer such as http://www.rxmed.com and http://www.fda.gov that provide helpful new and past drug information, including clinical trial information, dosage available, drug interactions, and contraindications. If you click on http://www.pslgroup.com/ASTMA.HTM, there are over 50 internet sites that are linked including the American Lung Association and more discussion groups available. Also, http//www.publinet.it/pol/cmol/steroids/htm has individual drug monographs available on other asthma drug medications. Finally, Pulmicort should be more effective then your current medications, and if you use it chromically, it should help you to control the asthma to improve your quality of life.                                                         Bly I hope the information I suggested will be helpful to you, but I cannot make any guarantees as to its accuracy, completeness, usefulness, or relevance to your particular situation. There is no substitute for having an ongoing, two-way dialogue with a licensed health professional whom you know and trust. Good luck.

Response:

Can anyone tell me if Pulmicort is as effective as I have heard from people? Side effects?  I am currently on intal, becloforte and singulair but my asthma is not completly controlled. Thanks Scott If you would like current and past scientific research material, then I

suggest you refer to the internet site www.nlm..nih.gov./databases/freemedl.html  then click on INTERNET GRATEFUL MED and enter in the Query Terms: pulmicort, side effects, and efficacy, which should result in 17 articles you can look up in your nearest health science library or you can get an overview of the information by reading the abstracts. Budesonide, generic for If you would like current and past scientific research material, then I suggest you refer to the internet site Pulmicort,  is the first corticosteroid dry powder inhaler for the maintenance treatment of asthma that is used in prophylactic drug therapy. The usual dosage is 2-3 puffs per day in which there is 200mcg/puff. The drug should improve nighttime symptoms and reduce the dependence on direct beta-2-agonist bronchodilators such as albuterol sulfate. The most common associated side effects are respiratory infection, headache, orad candidiasis, dysphonia, and pharyngitis, but inhaled corticosteroids are relatively safe and effective anti-inflammatory medications. However, as with any medication, your doctor should monitor your drug therapy and any switches/add-ons to your current medications. Also, a common consumer complaint is that the drug is very fine so you might not see the drug inhalation. Intal, a mast cell stabilizer, and Singulair, a leukotriene modifier, act on different steps of the body

Question:

I remember day 5 thru 10 to be the worst. day 15 (sweating profusely, brain shocks,couldn’t eat, or drink coffee, drank huge amounts of water) , it was had  already tapered down. Day 30 I had brain shocks maybe once every 2-3 days, but other than that I was pretty normal Week 8 I was completely back to normal. BTW, if you sample a fair amount of posts, you’ll find that they are all in their first 2 weeks of withdrawal. After that not many people post anymore. That is an encouraging sign.

Response:

Uther, I hate to be harsh, but ultimately, it just doesn’t matter.

amen.  sux, tha truth. Take your new medicine and continue the taper.  It will end when it ends.  Sorry, but that’s it.

i hate bottom lines !  and unfortunately , Gary’s right.. you can’t rush a detox from that crap.

Response:

I’ll keep telling my brain shocks they don’t matter and maybe they’ll get bored and go bother someone else

thanks a HEAP !  i gottem now.. oh holy.. i just read the rest of yer post, Uther.. i don’t think there’s any addictive pharmacological properties in Effexor, unless it’s that red dye. probly more mental. want some REAL withdrawals?  eat xanax for a few and cold turkey THAT… you will commune with your life, as flashed before your eyes…. 24/7, i promise you.   ~tanya

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ll keep telling my brain shocks they don’t matter and maybe they’ll get bored and go bother someone else thanks a HEAP !  i gottem now.. oh holy.. i just read the rest of yer post, Uther.. i don’t think there’s any addictive pharmacological properties in Effexor, unless it’s that red dye. probly more mental. want some REAL withdrawals?  eat xanax for a few and cold turkey THAT… you will commune with your life, as flashed before your eyes…. 24/7, i promise you.   ~tanya

Unfortunately Effexor is associated with withdrawal problems that can be just as bad as Xanax withdrawal. A way to get around it is switch to Prozac and then taper off of Prozac which is much easier to stop. Philip

Response:

The worst withdrawal I ever had was from quitting good old fashioned coffee cold turkey. I was in my 20’s and lived in a very rural area, was doing a pot of coffee a day. Big snowstorm showed up, out of coffee, no way to get to town to get my fix. Horrible headaches for 3 days, stomach cramps etc. I gave up coffee for awhile after that, went back to it, later decided to cut down, tapered slowly, no withdrawal. Now I do 1 mug of black coffee each morning, forgot it one morning and didn’t notice. I tapered xanax last summer, cut down by .25 mg every 3 days, no withdrawal, stopped it for nearly a month, then some serious shit happened in my life, a family member phoned screaming at me at 2 am  and I ran for the xanax bottle. Xanax not only keeps me sane, it keeps some people who have to be around me sane too. I don’t recommend quitting cold turkey for any substance. Withdrawals are hell. —-’Course – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – want some REAL withdrawals? eat xanax for a few and cold turkey THAT… you will commune with your life, as flashed before your eyes…. 24/7, i promise you. ~tanya —

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ll keep telling my brain shocks they don’t matter and maybe they’ll get bored and go bother someone else thanks a HEAP !  i gottem now.. oh holy.. i just read the rest of yer post, Uther.. i don’t think there’s any addictive pharmacological properties in Effexor, unless it’s that red dye. probly more mental. want some REAL withdrawals?  eat xanax for a few and cold turkey THAT… you will commune with your life, as flashed before your eyes…. 24/7, i promise you.   ~tanya Unfortunately Effexor is associated with withdrawal problems that can be just as bad as Xanax withdrawal. A way to get around it is switch to Prozac and then taper off of Prozac which is much easier to stop. Philip

I found withdrawing from Effexor extraordinarily difficult but necessary. Fortunately I had Xanax to help and the knowledge that I was starting a new AD. Despite the problems withdrawing, Effexor worked well for me for 5 years. Meryl

Response:

I found withdrawing from Effexor extraordinarily difficult but necessary. Fortunately I had Xanax to help and the knowledge that I was starting a new AD. Despite the problems withdrawing, Effexor worked well for me for 5 years. Meryl

Hi Meryl, how come you had to quit after 5 years?  I found it tough enough after 4 weeks Uthur

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I found withdrawing from Effexor extraordinarily difficult but necessary. Fortunately I had Xanax to help and the knowledge that I was starting a new AD. Despite the problems withdrawing, Effexor worked well for me for 5 years. Meryl Hi Meryl, how come you had to quit after 5 years?  I found it tough enough after 4 weeks Uthur

I developed adverse side effects. The worrying one was high blood pressure so I had to switch ADs. It was also pooping out as an antidepressant. I had climbed to 300 mg over the years but my depression was not controlled by the end. Meryl

Response:

Uther, I hate to be harsh, but ultimately, it just doesn’t matter.  Take your new medicine and continue the taper.  It will end when it ends.  Sorry, but that’s it. Gary

Thanks Gary, your philosophical approach is refreshing.  I’ll keep telling my brain shocks they don’t matter and maybe they’ll get bored and go bother someone else Uthur – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Howdy friends, I’m currently going through the less than enjoyable process of coming off this strange old drug.  Here’s my situation: I was on 75mg Effexor XL a day for 4 weeks in total. I went from that to 37.5mg for 14 days. Then I went to 37.5mg every second day for about 10 days. 3 days ago I took my last dose. I felt pretty bad last night and again today.  My questions are these – when do you think the withdrawal will peak, and how long before it is completely gone?  I came off Celexa a year ago a bit too abruptly and had withdrawal for 10 weeks – I hope I won’t go through that again! All opinions are welcome.  Thanks. Uthur

Response:

Uther, I hate to be harsh, but ultimately, it just doesn’t matter.  Take your new medicine and continue the taper.  It will end when it ends.  Sorry, but that’s it. Gary

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Howdy friends, I’m currently going through the less than enjoyable process of coming off this strange old drug.  Here’s my situation: I was on 75mg Effexor XL a day for 4 weeks in total. I went from that to 37.5mg for 14 days. Then I went to 37.5mg every second day for about 10 days. 3 days ago I took my last dose. I felt pretty bad last night and again today.  My questions are these – when do you think the withdrawal will peak, and how long before it is completely gone?  I came off Celexa a year ago a bit too abruptly and had withdrawal for 10 weeks – I hope I won’t go through that again! All opinions are welcome.  Thanks. Uthur

Response:

Howdy friends, I’m currently going through the less than enjoyable process of coming off this strange old drug.  Here’s my situation: I was on 75mg Effexor XL a day for 4 weeks in total. I went from that to 37.5mg for 14 days. Then I went to 37.5mg every second day for about 10 days. 3 days ago I took my last dose. I felt pretty bad last night and again today.  My questions are these – when do you think the withdrawal will peak, and how long before it is completely gone?  I came off Celexa a year ago a bit too abruptly and had withdrawal for 10 weeks – I hope I won’t go through that again! All opinions are welcome.  Thanks. Uthur

Response:

Question:

Anyone have any experience with Effexor.  I’ve tried Prozac, Paxil, Wellbutrin.  None of them work well. Thanx!

See earlier comments. Effexor, although some people have good experiences with it, is not a first choice in treating PAD. Philip

Response:

Anyone have any experience with Effexor.  I’ve tried Prozac, Paxil, Wellbutrin.  None of them work well. Thanx! See earlier comments. Effexor, although some people have good experiences with it, is not a first choice in treating PAD. Philip

Hi…I have been on Effexor (was on) XR for a month. At first, it seemed to lift a bit of my depression and worry, but after, my anxiety became really bad. I seemed to become almost "hypo-manic", and my sleep was WORSE then it ever had been. I could fall asleep fairly easy, but would wake up VERY early, feeling really "hung-over". I really had alot of hope for this drug, but I guess everbody does <g. Well..back to the drawing board…. Peace… James

Response:

Anyone have any experience with Effexor.  I’ve tried Prozac, Paxil, Wellbutrin.  None of them work well. Thanx!

Response:

Anyone have any experience with Effexor.  I’ve tried Prozac, Paxil, Wellbutrin. None of them work well. Thanx!

     I was on venlafaxine (Effexor) for about 3 months.  It worked great for my depression and pain, however the only side effect was sexual dysfunction, so I discontinued it for that reason.  Can’t say it worked on any of my anxiety because I’m on clonazepam (Klonopin) for that, but I know it didn’t cause any increase in anxiety either.  My dosage was 75 mg bid (twice daily).  My dose of clonazepam is really low, almost subtherapeutic, 0.5 mg bid. Good Luck, Chris

Response:

hi all my doc suggested today that i go off clonazepam and start taking effexor as she is not happy with me being on clonazepam for indefinitely.  i have tried many SSRI and was as sick as a dog and had anxiety like 24 hours a day for a long time.  what has your experience of effexor been??? also how long does it take to taper off clonazepam??? thanks a lot kim

Does clonazepam work for you? If so, don’t switch meds but doctors. Effexor is not an SSRI but close enough. *If* you should decide to try Effexor do *not* stop clonazepam at the same time as you risk experiencing both Effexor initial side effects (including worsening of anxiety) and clomazepam withdrawal symptoms. Tapering off of clonazepam takes as long as it takes depending on how high the dose is and how you’ve been taking it. Diminishing the dose with one fourth or less every two weeks or so is a good pace as a rule but YMMV. But once again: if clonazepam works well, why fix something that isn’t broken? Philip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

hi all my doc suggested today that i go off clonazepam and start taking effexor as she is not happy with me being on clonazepam for indefinitely.  i have tried many SSRI and was as sick as a dog and had anxiety like 24 hours a day for a long time.  what has your experience of effexor been??? also how long does it take to taper off clonazepam??? thanks a lot kim

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – hi all my doc suggested today that i go off clonazepam and start taking effexor as she is not happy with me being on clonazepam for indefinitely.  i have tried many SSRI and was as sick as a dog and had anxiety like 24 hours a day for a long time.  what has your experience of effexor been??? also how long does it take to taper off clonazepam??? thanks a lot kim

ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh this is stoopid medicine your doc is a benzophobe and believes that effexor is less addictive or dependency causing then a benzo-it isn’t. It has to be weaned on and weaned off and is not less toxic a compound then clonazepam. If the Klonopin helps you then why tamper with what works-find another doc if possible effexor is a very good medication in more comprehensive in its ability then ssri’s similar to tca’s-in low doses it works well for loads of people-its main side effect is gastrointestinal and increased levels of anxiety similar to the ssri’s I wouldn’t hesitate to use it if it is indicated or in conjunction with klonopin if needed but your doc’s reasoning for using it is downright wrong LM

Response:

I was put on Effexor and it help me as far as the depression, I started on 150 mg and then my doc put me on Clonazepam (klonapin) .5 mg a day half in the morning and half at night. At the same time he increased my Effexor to 225 mg and to be honest I think the Klonapin is helping better because it takes care of my anxiety to a point and without anxiety I am not depressed…….lol I think Effexor works but I am going to talk my doc into lowering the effexor and increasing the klonapin…

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – For me it helped less with the panic/anxiety part. Had to supplement it with klonopin. It takes about 2-6 weeks to work. Less sexual side effects for me than paxil — "Oh dear, I think you’ll find reality’s on the blink again." — Marvin The Paranoid Android : hi everyone. I need your help . I was on PAXIL CR for a year for panic : attacks but had to be taken off of it cause it was raising my liver : enzyme level too high. So my doctor changed my medication to EFFEXOR. : Does anyone know anything about this medicine? Any bad side effects to : it? How long will it take for it to work? Well any information would be : helpful and much appreciated. Thanks so much. Tony : : : : : :

Response:

I was put on Effexor and it help me as far as the depression, I started on 150 mg and then my doc put me on Clonazepam (klonapin) .5 mg a day half in the morning and half at night. At the same time he increased my Effexor to 225 mg and to be honest I think the Klonapin is helping better because it takes care of my anxiety to a point and without anxiety I am not depressed…….lol I think Effexor works but I am going to talk my doc into lowering the effexor and increasing the klonapin…

keep in mind that the two meds treat different symptoms of anxiety.  the effexor is good for the obsessive worries, "rumination" as my therapist calls it.  the nagging thoughts in the back of your head that won’t leave you alone.  benzos don’t help much with those, but they relieve the physical symptoms, the fear, the dumping of adrenaline, etc.  i think you have a good combo there (i’m on both as well).  :-) -kelly

Response:

hi everyone. I need your help . I was on PAXIL CR for a year for panic attacks but had to be taken off of it cause it was raising my liver enzyme level too high. So my doctor changed my medication to EFFEXOR. Does anyone know anything about this medicine? Any bad side effects to it? How long will it take for it to work? Well any information would be helpful and much appreciated. Thanks so much. Tony

Response:

For me it helped less with the panic/anxiety part. Had to supplement it with klonopin. It takes about 2-6 weeks to work. Less sexual side effects for me than paxil — "Oh dear, I think you’ll find reality’s on the blink again." — Marvin The Paranoid Android

: hi everyone. I need your help . I was on PAXIL CR for a year for panic : attacks but had to be taken off of it cause it was raising my liver : enzyme level too high. So my doctor changed my medication to EFFEXOR. : Does anyone know anything about this medicine? Any bad side effects to : it? How long will it take for it to work? Well any information would be : helpful and much appreciated. Thanks so much. Tony : : : : : :

Response:

Question:

On Mon, 28 Jul 2003 15:51:24 GMT, "Dee" <particl…@earthlink.net

wrote:

Norma, I am SO bad about thinking about ME ….

there’s a silly line from Ally McBeal where one character says "Why is everything always about you?"  Her answer, I believe, is "because it’s my life."  something to that effect.  of course you’re thinking about you. You are in pain and scared and that is how humans look at the world – through their eyes.

I have to say this: I have been told by a therapist at one time … that I have a small amount of borderline personality disorder.  I know I do .. cause I’ve read about it … and I fit it perfectly!  All except the wanting to commit suicide and cutting myself .. ick .. would never do that!

I would like to clarify – cutting (self-injury in general) is not a property of borderline personality disorder.  I’m sure "borderlines" do sometimes have this problem but it is not part and parcel of the disorder but a seperate issue that can be seen in the most otherwise mentally healthy individual.  Suicidal ideation is also not solely attributable to BPD and in fact the BPD people I know well do not have any desire to commit suicide.  I see more of each of these problems in bipolar disorder as well as in unipolar depression.  Are you getting treatment other than a therp saying you have BPD tendencies?  

BUT … part of the condition is being completely absorbed into the man in your life … and not being able to let go of what ‘he’s’ thinking ..

I think that is part of you.  The BPD individual I am closest to, really could care less about what her family, friends or significant other thinks or feels.

feeling .. doing.  And jealousy and trust is a HUGE thing for me!  

trust should be a huge thing.  Jealousy is something we can learn to deal with but trust is critical to any relationship.  You can not trust him, he’s shown you that.  

I’m seriously thinking of asking my doctor for an antidepressant during this time.. cause I KNOW if left on my own …. I’ll go crazy and do some damage to my system by the worrying and obsessions.

please do check into it.  But also make sure that this doc knows as much about meds and BPD as possible.  Some of the antidepressants can aggravate the anxiety levels of a situation and make it tougher for you to cope rather than easier.  I am not well-versed in treating BPD but fairly familiar with treating depression (bipolar or unipolar) and would recommend you talk to a good therp as well as a good psychiatrist (prescribing doc.)  

He did prescribe Zoloft for me once .. but I never took them .. threw them away … maybe he’ll just call them in for me.  I’m very scared to take them … cause I’m on meds for hypertension and rapid heartbeat, and I think they raise the blood pressure … will have to talk to him about it.  But I do know I may need something … for the obsessivness .. or I’ll just lose it!

some of the SRIs and SSRIs like zoloft, effexor and so on can increase BP.  I didn’t have this problem when I was on effexor but it sure had other side effects.  I don’t know if a tricyclic is the right treatment for you but I do know that this type of AD tends to lower b.p.  It can also increase your appetite tremendously.  I take Remeron now and then for that purpose only – one dose gives me 2-3 days of appetite and keeps me at a safe weight (I’m too thin – the disease prevents me from properly absorbing nutrients.)  The best known tricyclic is Elavil (Amitryptiline.)  I took Trazadone for sleep – a tricyclic not really that effective for depression – and it lowered my b.p. too much.  I had "brown outs" several times a day and had to stop the drug.

PS… if I sound ungrateful or bitchy .. I truly don’t mean to come across that way … I’m just really hurting today!

likewise -if we sound preachy and know-it-all it’s ’cause we want to help. kcat

Response:

What she said!! I’ve been there too- and while it is hard, it’s so freeing to be away from abuse.  I think you might find that you will feel better physically too… the stress of this whole things being behind you. My marriage to an abusive man broke up 6 years ago and I look back now, see how God carried me through it, and see where I am now–  and would do it over in a heartbeat. Hang in there! -Kristin "Opinion8d" <mm…@cox.net

wrote in message

news:ceoVa.151933$o86.40550@news1.central.cox.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "Dee" <particl…@earthlink.net

wrote in message

> news:7F9Va.122682$Io.10500495@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net… > > I’m just gonna vent and spill out my feelings for a bit .. hope you don’t

mind … I sit here feeling terrible … as expected I’m sure.  I know it seems that when a bad thing stops, it’s suppose to be good … but not so … at least not right away.  How could I make him leave his home?  The only place he knew?  His office sits there with his computer, his papers … books .. software .. he SO wanted to learn Dreamweaver … I sit here crying as I type … cause I’m not so sure I wasn’t the one who made this go bad. [snip]    I hate this!!  I know .. time .. time .. time .. but what if I made a mistake? ?????? I’m done now …. anybody? Dee Hi Dee. Can you feel the virtual arms of your pals here around you?? The first year is the worst……and yes, we tend to put ourselves on more severe guilt trips than the former "other" could ever dream up on their

own.

Your reactions to the emotions surging through your life are normal and natural. Acknowledge the anger, the frustration, guilt, and jealousy (the fear of

him

rebounding directly into another woman’s arms)……cry about it, scream about it, rag on and on to all your friends about it…………and

everyday

remind yourself that you MUST look after your own interests. Ahw hell……just read your post "Trying to Understand My Husband" over your morning coffee………that should help reinforce all the reasons

that

you have made your decision to remove the source of negativity that can

only

be described as destructive.    I know it would for me!! Yeah, I said and did all those things you mentioned when my first husband and I split……if only I had………if only things could have been different…….if only I was a better {insert your choice here}……..on and on and on………….. I entertained all sorts of crazy fantasies………ones that always ended with my daughter and I starting over in a new place with new names, and never worrying about the presence of the beast again………eventually I quit running from my emotions. I sat down and had the biggest cry of my life!!  A couple of hours later I felt calm and had an amazingly clear headed……..in that moment, I determined that I would not let the beast haunt me……..this is my life and I a responsible for my own destiny………God gave me all the tools

and

knowledge to survive and take care of myself — it was up to me to utilize them. The hardest thing for anyone to do is leave an abusive relationship…….and abuse comes in many more forms that the traditional smack in the choppers……you are the victim here.  From this day forward it is up to you………live your life as a victim, or face your future

with

hope and expectations of success. The road you are on now is rough and full of boulders………this too

shall

pass……..stick to your resolve, and make YOUR life happen.  In time,

the

pain begins to ease, and you can reflect on that relationship with a new perspective that allows you to move forward without any guilt or shame. Get a copy of "Women Who Love Too Much"  from your library…….block off an entire day, and read it cover to cover.  I cried most of the way

through

it…..tears of recognition……..tears of resolve…….tears of guilt

and

frustration……..and later, tears of relief.  I had recognized that I

was

in an unhealthy relationship and had the wisdom and courage to get out of it…….through the tears I learned what events in my life had influenced the decisions I had made, and how to recognize and avoid stimuli that triggered poor relationship choices. Marie

Response:

"Dee" <particl…@earthlink.net

wrote in message

news:7F9Va.122682$Io.10500495@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net…

I’m just gonna vent and spill out my feelings for a bit .. hope you don’t mind … I sit here feeling terrible … as expected I’m sure.  I know it seems

that

when a bad thing stops, it’s suppose to be good … but not so … at

least

not right away.  How could I make him leave his home?  The only place he knew?  His office sits there with his computer, his papers … books .. software .. he SO wanted to learn Dreamweaver … I sit here crying as I type … cause I’m not so sure I wasn’t the one who made this go bad.

[snip]

   I hate this!!  I know .. time .. time .. time .. but what if I made a mistake? ?????? I’m done now …. anybody? Dee

Hi Dee. Can you feel the virtual arms of your pals here around you?? The first year is the worst……and yes, we tend to put ourselves on more severe guilt trips than the former "other" could ever dream up on their own. Your reactions to the emotions surging through your life are normal and natural. Acknowledge the anger, the frustration, guilt, and jealousy (the fear of him rebounding directly into another woman’s arms)……cry about it, scream about it, rag on and on to all your friends about it…………and everyday remind yourself that you MUST look after your own interests. Ahw hell……just read your post "Trying to Understand My Husband" over your morning coffee………that should help reinforce all the reasons that you have made your decision to remove the source of negativity that can only be described as destructive.    I know it would for me!! Yeah, I said and did all those things you mentioned when my first husband and I split……if only I had………if only things could have been different…….if only I was a better {insert your choice here}……..on and on and on………….. I entertained all sorts of crazy fantasies………ones that always ended with my daughter and I starting over in a new place with new names, and never worrying about the presence of the beast again………eventually I quit running from my emotions. I sat down and had the biggest cry of my life!!  A couple of hours later I felt calm and had an amazingly clear headed……..in that moment, I determined that I would not let the beast haunt me……..this is my life and I a responsible for my own destiny………God gave me all the tools and knowledge to survive and take care of myself — it was up to me to utilize them. The hardest thing for anyone to do is leave an abusive relationship…….and abuse comes in many more forms that the traditional smack in the choppers……you are the victim here.  From this day forward it is up to you………live your life as a victim, or face your future with hope and expectations of success. The road you are on now is rough and full of boulders………this too shall pass……..stick to your resolve, and make YOUR life happen.  In time, the pain begins to ease, and you can reflect on that relationship with a new perspective that allows you to move forward without any guilt or shame. Get a copy of "Women Who Love Too Much"  from your library…….block off an entire day, and read it cover to cover.  I cried most of the way through it…..tears of recognition……..tears of resolve…….tears of guilt and frustration……..and later, tears of relief.  I had recognized that I was in an unhealthy relationship and had the wisdom and courage to get out of it…….through the tears I learned what events in my life had influenced the decisions I had made, and how to recognize and avoid stimuli that triggered poor relationship choices. Marie

Response:

Dee, I have been sitting in your position in the past.  Please trust us on the NG here, that you made the right decision…it is hard because you are afraid. I have at least 5 major health disorders and I have emotional disorders as well.  In the past the completely bizarre feeling that if my husband leaves I will literally *disappear*–some strange feeling of getting "lost" and never getting found again.  These feeling have a completely logical basis for little children, but sometimes as adults we don’t realize that we have not outgrown all of them. You do need to think about supporting yourself, and not overdoing yourself. the best thing he can give you, rather than "the large monitor and the mouse" is temporary support.  Depending on the state you live in the court can order it.  Get as much as you can for as long as you can, and you should know that amount right up front.  that will bring your anxiety level down several notches. Take things in little steps.  I have so much more I could tell you, but this is so much right here.  I didn’t have time to read all of your posts… but I will go back. When the feelings get really bad, just find something to do.  And we are here for you. It’s gonna be okay. But more imortantly, it *is* okay, right now. I’ts okay.  It IS okay. You’re not bleeding. Take a deep breath. the house is not on fire. Take a deep breath. Your heart hurts badly Cry and feel the hurt Its okay to be hurting Its not fun, but its okay Take a deep breath. Mair "Dee" <particl…@earthlink.net

wrote in message

news:7F9Va.122682$Io.10500495@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

I’m just gonna vent and spill out my feelings for a bit .. hope you don’t mind … I sit here feeling terrible … as expected I’m sure.  I know it seems

that

when a bad thing stops, it’s suppose to be good … but not so … at

least

not right away.  How could I make him leave his home?  The only place he knew?  His office sits there with his computer, his papers … books .. software .. he SO wanted to learn Dreamweaver … I sit here crying as I type … cause I’m not so sure I wasn’t the one who made this go bad. I know .. you will say I’m blaming myself … and letting him get to me

…

but no .. not really .. I guess I’m really trying to be  honest with

myself.

I wasn’t the perfect wife by no means … I mean… I know the REASON I yelled at him … and bitched … was because he hurt me .. and wasn’t

there

for me.. but he wasn’t there for me the way "I" wanted him to be … the

way

I needed.   Was that HIS fault?  Or was it just that he wasn’t the man I needed .. and never could be … and all my yellling and bitching … and calling him names .. and yes I admit .. I did call him so pretty bad things… did any of that help?  No!  All it did was push him further from me … and hurt him inside.  I guess I wish he were feeling these things

too

… it would make it easier on me .. that he’s hurting too .. that he’s sorry HE hurt ME too … He did so many things for me … while married … and before he left ..

he

set me up with my own business in the beginning .. not pushing me to work … and just work on my business … I did that for many years .. and did bring in some income .. but I would quit one idea and go to the next .. so my business never really took off good … nor did I ever make allot of money from it.  He worked hard .. all the time … and he never gave me a problem about working.  ok .. a few times he would say maybe I should go

to

work … and to tell the truth, back before I got sick … I just hated working!  I would find excuses … and he would accept them. Now .. I truly am sick … and it’s hard to imagine myself working full

time

… I’m almost positive I can’t.  I’m not sure about part time … I do

know

that I’m painting … and selling the paintings a little on ebay.  I just made a few cloth dolls and sold a them on ebay also.  I have an idea I’m working on with a few other women … with dolls .. and it might go over well and bring in some income … and I’ve thought of having home shows

with

dolls that other folks make … and I resell .. but I’m not sure I have

the

energy for that either.  I’d really love to work on my paintings … and sell them more often. I may HAVE to go to work part time…. but it scares me so! He did so many things he didn’t have to do .. before he left …. he gave

me

his BIG monitor .. his new mouse, and ALL his memory … so I could have a nice computer system to work with.  He also gave me the printer.  He took out the mattress he had been sleeping on this morning before going to work … and he put his clothes in a plastic garbage bag.    :-( It hurt me so much to see him have to give up everything!  I had a short talk with him before he left … and told him that I’ve tried to do this

as

nice as I can … and that he knew we had to separate, that he wanted it

too

… and there was no easy way of doing it.  I told him I was so sorry that he had no money or place to stay … but I was scared for myself too … what I’m going to do … where I’m getting the money to live. He acted

upset

.. and hurt … more upset .. annoyed .. angry .. and that made me feel worse. I just don’t know … I’m so confused!  I’m SO scared that he’ll be in another woman’s arms soon … he’s in the pitcrew for his newphews racing team … and at the track there are so many opportunities.  I still do

love

him .. and yet I know he hurt me … and I know he wasn’t good for me in many ways … yet I hurt him too, and I wasn’t good for him.    I hate this!!  I know .. time .. time .. time .. but what if I made a mistake? ?????? I’m done now …. anybody? Dee

Response:

Honey, I know you are hurting. It is the biggest hurt in the world.  Like my mom has told me "once you get over this hurt, a man will never be able to hurt you like that again"  That has been true for me. There are a lot of things you can’t see right now. Believe me, his guilt is not your guilt. We all have been jealousy at one time or another and that is a nasty emotion, but you can overcome this day. Whenever you are ready I am here.  Cry it out. Then one day you will wonder why you shed those tears over a damn man.  Honey, he or no other man is worth it. I’m just trying to be as honest with you as I can. Don’t get mad at any of us for trying to help, please. It can piss you off, but we are thinking about you not him. Norma "Dee" <particl…@earthlink.net

wrote in message

news:0EbVa.25257$Mc.1957704@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Norma, I am SO bad about thinking about ME …. I have to say this: I have been told by a therapist at one time … that I have a small amount of borderline personality disorder.  I know I do .. cause I’ve read about it … and I fit it perfectly!  All except the

wanting

to commit suicide and cutting myself .. ick .. would never do that! BUT … part of the condition is being completely absorbed into the man in your life … and not being able to let go of what ‘he’s’ thinking .. feeling .. doing.  And jealousy and trust is a HUGE thing for me!  I mean

I

get SO hysterical .. that I’ll do some pretty stupid things out of jealousy!!  I dwell and dwell on what he’s doing when I’m not there …

how

he’ll be with women .. what they’ll do .. say … where they’ll go… how much happier he’ll be without me .. how much nicer they’ll treat him .. that somebody else .. younger, and healthier will treat him better .. and make him happy … and that will just KILL me … it will do me in, I

swear!

That’s how I am!!  I hate it … but it’s a reality! I’m seriously thinking of asking my doctor for an antidepressant during

this

time.. cause I KNOW if left on my own …. I’ll go crazy and do some

damage

to my system by the worrying and obsessions. He did prescribe Zoloft for me once .. but I never took them .. threw them away … maybe he’ll just call them in for me.  I’m very scared to take

them

… cause I’m on meds for hypertension and rapid heartbeat, and I think

they

raise the blood pressure … will have to talk to him about it.  But I do know I may need something … for the obsessivness .. or I’ll just lose

it!

Thanks so much for being here … As for ‘guilt’ .. as soon as I read what you said … and J too … I got defensive .. I mean .. inside my head and heart .. I said … NO .. he wasn’t making me feel guilty .. he  did it to be nice … he wanted me to have a nice computer when he was gone … and I still think that. Yes, I might consider talking on the phone .. maybe not just yet …

today’s > a hard day … crying lots and bleeding hard… some combination .. huh? > Thanks so much … truly I mean that! > Hugs, > Dee > PS… if I sound ungrateful or bitchy .. I truly don’t mean to come across > that way … I’m just really hurting today! > Norma <lup…@hotmail.com

wrote in message

> news:viag6pkd7vrc76@corp.supernews.com… > > Dee Dee Dee: > > Bless your heart. I know the pain seems impossible now, but you will be > > okay. Yes, time is the answer. It will get better day to day, week to > week. > > Honey, it takes two to make a marriage and it takes two to break a > marriage. > > Stop placing the all blame on yourself. > > According to his background you should be appalled. The only reason he > > "left" you the computer, etc. is called "GUILT".  He knows he’s done > wrong, > > but won’t admit it.  However, that is no reason, just an excuse. > > Get your feelings straightened out and get on with it.  Yes, dear it does > > take time and we’ve all been there, so know, that it will get better. > > If you want to send me a private email with your phone number, I will be > > glad to call you and talk. > > You have to concentrate on feeling better. That is the #1 priority. > > Thinking of you, > > Norma > > "Dee" <particl…@earthlink.net

wrote in message

> > news:7F9Va.122682$Io.10500495@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net… > > > I’m just gonna vent and spill out my feelings for a bit .. hope you > don’t > > > mind … > > > I sit here feeling terrible … as expected I’m sure.  I know it seems > > that > > > when a bad thing stops, it’s suppose to be good … but not so … at > > least > > > not right away.  How could I make him leave his home?  The only place he

knew?  His office sits there with his computer, his papers … books

..

software .. he SO wanted to learn Dreamweaver … I sit here crying as

I

type … cause I’m not so sure I wasn’t the one who made this go bad. I know .. you will say I’m blaming myself … and letting him get to

me

… but no .. not really .. I guess I’m really trying to be  honest with myself. I wasn’t the perfect wife by no means … I mean… I know the REASON

I

yelled at him … and bitched … was because he hurt me .. and wasn’t there for me.. but he wasn’t there for me the way "I" wanted him to be …

the

way I needed.   Was that HIS fault?  Or was it just that he wasn’t the man

I

needed .. and never could be … and all my yellling and bitching … and calling him names .. and yes I admit .. I did call him so pretty bad things… did any of that help?  No!  All it did was push him further from me … and hurt him inside.  I guess I wish he were feeling these

things

too … it would make it easier on me .. that he’s hurting too .. that

he’s

sorry HE hurt ME too … He did so many things for me … while married … and before he left

..

he set me up with my own business in the beginning .. not pushing me to work … and just work on my business … I did that for many years .. and did bring in some income .. but I would quit one idea and go to the next

..

so my business never really took off good … nor did I ever make allot

of

money from it.  He worked hard .. all the time … and he never gave

me

a problem about working.  ok .. a few times he would say maybe I should

go

to work … and to tell the truth, back before I got sick … I just

hated

working!  I would find excuses … and he would accept them. Now .. I truly am sick … and it’s hard to imagine myself working

full

time … I’m almost positive I can’t.  I’m not sure about part time … I

do

know that I’m painting … and selling the paintings a little on ebay.  I just made a few cloth dolls and sold a them on ebay also.  I have an idea

I’m

working on with a few other women … with dolls .. and it might go

over

well and bring in some income … and I’ve thought of having home

shows

with dolls that other folks make … and I resell .. but I’m not sure I

have

the energy for that either.  I’d really love to work on my paintings …

and

sell them more often. I may HAVE to go to work part time…. but it scares me so! He did so many things he didn’t have to do .. before he left …. he gave me his BIG monitor .. his new mouse, and ALL his memory … so I could

have

a nice computer system to work with.  He also gave me the printer.  He took out the mattress he had been sleeping on this morning before going to work … and he put his clothes in a plastic garbage bag.    :-( It hurt me so much to see him have to give up everything!  I had a

short

talk with him before he left … and told him that I’ve tried to do

this

as nice as I can … and that he knew we had to separate, that he wanted

it

too … and there was no easy way of doing it.  I told him I was so sorry that he had no money or place to stay … but I was scared for myself too

…

what I’m going to do … where I’m getting the money to live. He acted upset .. and hurt … more upset .. annoyed .. angry .. and that made me

feel

worse. I just don’t know … I’m so confused!  I’m SO scared that he’ll be in another woman’s arms soon … he’s in the pitcrew for his newphews racing team … and at the track there are so many opportunities.  I still do love him .. and yet I know he hurt me … and I know he wasn’t good for me

in

many ways … yet I hurt him too, and I wasn’t good for him.    I hate this!!  I know .. time .. time .. time .. but what if I made

a

mistake? ?????? I’m done now …. anybody? Dee

Response:

Hi J, I know … it seems that way .. but for today … and for a bit .. it will be hard for me to believe that.    :-( I do truly believe he wanted me to have nice things … all though I AM the one who asked for his monitor, he didn’t vollunteer it .. but he DID put in all his memory for me … Sorry … I’m starting to cry again … got to go … bad day .. first day … you know. Thanks so much for being here … Hugs, Dee J Rogow <JRo…@SpammenotNewsguy.com

wrote in message

news:bg3e0302tir@enews3.newsguy.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

He’s trying to send you on a major guilt-trip. Don’t go! Dee wrote: I’m just gonna vent and spill out my feelings for a bit .. hope you don’t mind … I sit here feeling terrible … as expected I’m sure.  I know it seems that when a bad thing stops, it’s suppose to be good … but not so … at least not right away.  How could I make him leave his home?  The only place he knew?  His office sits there with his computer, his papers … books .. software .. he SO wanted to learn Dreamweaver … I sit here crying as I type … cause I’m not so sure I wasn’t the one who made this go bad. I know .. you will say I’m blaming myself … and letting him get to me … but no .. not really .. I guess I’m really trying to be honest with myself. I wasn’t the perfect wife by no means … I mean… I know the REASON I yelled at him … and bitched … was because he hurt me .. and wasn’t there for me.. but he wasn’t there for me the way "I" wanted him to be … the way I needed.   Was that HIS fault?  Or was it just that he wasn’t the man I needed .. and never could be … and all my yellling and bitching … and calling him names .. and yes I admit .. I did call him so pretty bad things… did any of that help?  No!  All it did was push him further from me … and hurt him inside.  I guess I wish he were feeling these things too … it would make it easier on me .. that he’s hurting too .. that he’s sorry HE hurt ME too … He did so many things for me … while married … and before he left .. he set me up with my own business in the beginning .. not pushing me to work … and just work on my business … I did that for many years .. and did bring in some income .. but I would quit one idea and go to the next .. so my business never really took off good … nor did I ever make allot of money from it.  He worked hard .. all the time … and he never gave me a problem about working.  ok .. a few times he would say maybe I should go to work … and to tell the truth, back before I got sick … I just hated working!  I would find excuses … and he would accept them. Now .. I truly am sick … and it’s hard to imagine myself working full time … I’m almost positive I can’t.  I’m not sure about part time … I do know that I’m painting … and selling the paintings a little on ebay.  I just made a few cloth dolls and sold a them on ebay also.  I have an idea I’m working on with a few other women … with dolls .. and it might go over well and bring in some income … and I’ve thought of having home shows with dolls that other folks make … and I resell .. but I’m not sure I have the energy for that either.  I’d really love to work on my paintings … and sell them more often. I may HAVE to go to work part time…. but it scares me so! He did so many things he didn’t have to do .. before he left …. he gave me his BIG monitor .. his new mouse, and ALL his memory … so I could have a nice computer system to work with.  He also gave me the printer.  He took out the mattress he had been sleeping on this morning before going to work … and he put his clothes in a plastic garbage bag.    :-( It hurt me so much to see him have to give up everything!  I had a short talk with him before he left … and told him that I’ve tried to do this as nice as I can … and that he knew we had to separate, that he wanted it too … and there was no easy way of doing it.  I told him I was so sorry that he had no money or place to stay … but I was scared for myself too … what I’m going to do … where I’m getting the money to live. He acted upset .. and hurt … more upset .. annoyed .. angry .. and that made me feel worse. I just don’t know … I’m so confused!  I’m SO scared that he’ll be in another woman’s arms soon … he’s in the pitcrew for his newphews racing team … and at the track there are so many opportunities.  I still do love him .. and yet I know he hurt me … and I know he wasn’t good for me in many ways … yet I hurt him too, and I wasn’t    good for him. I hate this!!  I know .. time .. time .. time .. but what if I made a mistake? ?????? I’m done now …. anybody? Dee

Response:

Norma, I am SO bad about thinking about ME …. I have to say this: I have been told by a therapist at one time … that I have a small amount of borderline personality disorder.  I know I do .. cause I’ve read about it … and I fit it perfectly!  All except the wanting to commit suicide and cutting myself .. ick .. would never do that! BUT … part of the condition is being completely absorbed into the man in your life … and not being able to let go of what ‘he’s’ thinking .. feeling .. doing.  And jealousy and trust is a HUGE thing for me!  I mean I get SO hysterical .. that I’ll do some pretty stupid things out of jealousy!!  I dwell and dwell on what he’s doing when I’m not there … how he’ll be with women .. what they’ll do .. say … where they’ll go… how much happier he’ll be without me .. how much nicer they’ll treat him .. that somebody else .. younger, and healthier will treat him better .. and make him happy … and that will just KILL me … it will do me in, I swear! That’s how I am!!  I hate it … but it’s a reality! I’m seriously thinking of asking my doctor for an antidepressant during this time.. cause I KNOW if left on my own …. I’ll go crazy and do some damage to my system by the worrying and obsessions. He did prescribe Zoloft for me once .. but I never took them .. threw them away … maybe he’ll just call them in for me.  I’m very scared to take them … cause I’m on meds for hypertension and rapid heartbeat, and I think they raise the blood pressure … will have to talk to him about it.  But I do know I may need something … for the obsessivness .. or I’ll just lose it! Thanks so much for being here … As for ‘guilt’ .. as soon as I read what you said … and J too … I got defensive .. I mean .. inside my head and heart .. I said … NO .. he wasn’t making me feel guilty .. he  did it to be nice … he wanted me to have a nice computer when he was gone … and I still think that. Yes, I might consider talking on the phone .. maybe not just yet … today’s a hard day … crying lots and bleeding hard… some combination .. huh? Thanks so much … truly I mean that! Hugs, Dee PS… if I sound ungrateful or bitchy .. I truly don’t mean to come across that way … I’m just really hurting today! Norma <lup…@hotmail.com

wrote in message

news:viag6pkd7vrc76@corp.supernews.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Dee Dee Dee: Bless your heart. I know the pain seems impossible now, but you will be okay. Yes, time is the answer. It will get better day to day, week to

week.

Honey, it takes two to make a marriage and it takes two to break a

marriage.

Stop placing the all blame on yourself. According to his background you should be appalled. The only reason he "left" you the computer, etc. is called "GUILT".  He knows he’s done

wrong, > but won’t admit it.  However, that is no reason, just an excuse. > Get your feelings straightened out and get on with it.  Yes, dear it does > take time and we’ve all been there, so know, that it will get better. > If you want to send me a private email with your phone number, I will be > glad to call you and talk. > You have to concentrate on feeling better. That is the #1 priority. > Thinking of you, > Norma > "Dee" <particl…@earthlink.net

wrote in message

> news:7F9Va.122682$Io.10500495@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net… > > I’m just gonna vent and spill out my feelings for a bit .. hope you don’t

mind … I sit here feeling terrible … as expected I’m sure.  I know it seems that when a bad thing stops, it’s suppose to be good … but not so … at least not right away.  How could I make him leave his home?  The only place he knew?  His office sits there with his computer, his papers … books .. software .. he SO wanted to learn Dreamweaver … I sit here crying as I type … cause I’m not so sure I wasn’t the one who made this go bad. I know .. you will say I’m blaming myself … and letting him get to me … but no .. not really .. I guess I’m really trying to be  honest with myself. I wasn’t the perfect wife by no means … I mean… I know the REASON I yelled at him … and bitched … was because he hurt me .. and wasn’t there for me.. but he wasn’t there for me the way "I" wanted him to be … the way I needed.   Was that HIS fault?  Or was it just that he wasn’t the man I needed .. and never could be … and all my yellling and bitching …

and

calling him names .. and yes I admit .. I did call him so pretty bad things… did any of that help?  No!  All it did was push him further

from

me … and hurt him inside.  I guess I wish he were feeling these things too … it would make it easier on me .. that he’s hurting too .. that he’s sorry HE hurt ME too … He did so many things for me … while married … and before he left .. he set me up with my own business in the beginning .. not pushing me to

work

… and just work on my business … I did that for many years .. and

did

bring in some income .. but I would quit one idea and go to the next ..

so

my business never really took off good … nor did I ever make allot of money from it.  He worked hard .. all the time … and he never gave me

a

problem about working.  ok .. a few times he would say maybe I should go to work … and to tell the truth, back before I got sick … I just hated working!  I would find excuses … and he would accept them. Now .. I truly am sick … and it’s hard to imagine myself working full time … I’m almost positive I can’t.  I’m not sure about part time … I do know that I’m painting … and selling the paintings a little on ebay.  I

just

made a few cloth dolls and sold a them on ebay also.  I have an idea I’m working on with a few other women … with dolls .. and it might go over well and bring in some income … and I’ve thought of having home shows with dolls that other folks make … and I resell .. but I’m not sure I have the energy for that either.  I’d really love to work on my paintings … and sell them more often. I may HAVE to go to work part time…. but it scares me so! He did so many things he didn’t have to do .. before he left …. he

gave

me his BIG monitor .. his new mouse, and ALL his memory … so I could have

a

nice computer system to work with.  He also gave me the printer.  He

took

out the mattress he had been sleeping on this morning before going to

work

… and he put his clothes in a plastic garbage bag.    :-( It hurt me so much to see him have to give up everything!  I had a short talk with him before he left … and told him that I’ve tried to do this as nice as I can … and that he knew we had to separate, that he wanted it too … and there was no easy way of doing it.  I told him I was so sorry

that

he had no money or place to stay … but I was scared for myself too … what I’m going to do … where I’m getting the money to live. He acted upset .. and hurt … more upset .. annoyed .. angry .. and that made me feel worse. I just don’t know … I’m so confused!  I’m SO scared that he’ll be in another woman’s arms soon … he’s in the pitcrew for his newphews

racing

team … and at the track there are so many opportunities.  I still do love him .. and yet I know he hurt me … and I know he wasn’t good for me in many ways … yet I hurt him too, and I wasn’t good for him.    I hate this!!  I know .. time .. time .. time .. but what if I made a mistake? ?????? I’m done now …. anybody? Dee

Response:

Dee Dee Dee: Bless your heart. I know the pain seems impossible now, but you will be okay. Yes, time is the answer. It will get better day to day, week to week. Honey, it takes two to make a marriage and it takes two to break a marriage. Stop placing the all blame on yourself. According to his background you should be appalled. The only reason he "left" you the computer, etc. is called "GUILT".  He knows he’s done wrong, but won’t admit it.  However, that is no reason, just an excuse. Get your feelings straightened out and get on with it.  Yes, dear it does take time and we’ve all been there, so know, that it will get better. If you want to send me a private email with your phone number, I will be glad to call you and talk. You have to concentrate on feeling better. That is the #1 priority. Thinking of you, Norma "Dee" <particl…@earthlink.net

wrote in message

news:7F9Va.122682$Io.10500495@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

I’m just gonna vent and spill out my feelings for a bit .. hope you don’t mind … I sit here feeling terrible … as expected I’m sure.  I know it seems

that

when a bad thing stops, it’s suppose to be good … but not so … at

least

not right away.  How could I make him leave his home?  The only place he knew?  His office sits there with his computer, his papers … books .. software .. he SO wanted to learn Dreamweaver … I sit here crying as I type … cause I’m not so sure I wasn’t the one who made this go bad. I know .. you will say I’m blaming myself … and letting him get to me

…

but no .. not really .. I guess I’m really trying to be  honest with

myself.

I wasn’t the perfect wife by no means … I mean… I know the REASON I yelled at him … and bitched … was because he hurt me .. and wasn’t

there

for me.. but he wasn’t there for me the way "I" wanted him to be … the

way

I needed.   Was that HIS fault?  Or was it just that he wasn’t the man I needed .. and never could be … and all my yellling and bitching … and calling him names .. and yes I admit .. I did call him so pretty bad things… did any of that help?  No!  All it did was push him further from me … and hurt him inside.  I guess I wish he were feeling these things

too

… it would make it easier on me .. that he’s hurting too .. that he’s sorry HE hurt ME too … He did so many things for me … while married … and before he left ..

he

set me up with my own business in the beginning .. not pushing me to work … and just work on my business … I did that for many years .. and did bring in some income .. but I would quit one idea and go to the next .. so my business never really took off good … nor did I ever make allot of money from it.  He worked hard .. all the time … and he never gave me a problem about working.  ok .. a few times he would say maybe I should go

to

work … and to tell the truth, back before I got sick … I just hated working!  I would find excuses … and he would accept them. Now .. I truly am sick … and it’s hard to imagine myself working full

time

… I’m almost positive I can’t.  I’m not sure about part time … I do

know

that I’m painting … and selling the paintings a little on ebay.  I just made a few cloth dolls and sold a them on ebay also.  I have an idea I’m working on with a few other women … with dolls .. and it might go over well and bring in some income … and I’ve thought of having home shows

with

dolls that other folks make … and I resell .. but I’m not sure I have

the

energy for that either.  I’d really love to work on my paintings … and sell them more often. I may HAVE to go to work part time…. but it scares me so! He did so many things he didn’t have to do .. before he left …. he gave

me

his BIG monitor .. his new mouse, and ALL his memory … so I could have a nice computer system to work with.  He also gave me the printer.  He took out the mattress he had been sleeping on this morning before going to work … and he put his clothes in a plastic garbage bag.    :-( It hurt me so much to see him have to give up everything!  I had a short talk with him before he left … and told him that I’ve tried to do this

as

nice as I can … and that he knew we had to separate, that he wanted it

too

… and there was no easy way of doing it.  I told him I was so sorry that he had no money or place to stay … but I was scared for myself too … what I’m going to do … where I’m getting the money to live. He acted

upset

.. and hurt … more upset .. annoyed .. angry .. and that made me feel worse. I just don’t know … I’m so confused!  I’m SO scared that he’ll be in another woman’s arms soon … he’s in the pitcrew for his newphews racing team … and at the track there are so many opportunities.  I still do

love

him .. and yet I know he hurt me … and I know he wasn’t good for me in many ways … yet I hurt him too, and I wasn’t good for him.    I hate this!!  I know .. time .. time .. time .. but what if I made a mistake? ?????? I’m done now …. anybody? Dee

Response:

He’s trying to send you on a major guilt-trip. Don’t go! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Dee wrote:

I’m just gonna vent and spill out my feelings for a bit .. hope you don’t mind … I sit here feeling terrible … as expected I’m sure.  I know it seems that when a bad thing stops, it’s suppose to be good … but not so … at least not right away.  How could I make him leave his home?  The only place he knew?  His office sits there with his computer, his papers … books .. software .. he SO wanted to learn Dreamweaver … I sit here crying as I type … cause I’m not so sure I wasn’t the one who made this go bad. I know .. you will say I’m blaming myself … and letting him get to me … but no .. not really .. I guess I’m really trying to be honest with myself. I wasn’t the perfect wife by no means … I mean… I know the REASON I yelled at him … and bitched … was because he hurt me .. and wasn’t there for me.. but he wasn’t there for me the way "I" wanted him to be … the way I needed.   Was that HIS fault?  Or was it just that he wasn’t the man I needed .. and never could be … and all my yellling and bitching … and calling him names .. and yes I admit .. I did call him so pretty bad things… did any of that help?  No!  All it did was push him further from me … and hurt him inside.  I guess I wish he were feeling these things too … it would make it easier on me .. that he’s hurting too .. that he’s sorry HE hurt ME too … He did so many things for me … while married … and before he left .. he set me up with my own business in the beginning .. not pushing me to work … and just work on my business … I did that for many years .. and did bring in some income .. but I would quit one idea and go to the next .. so my business never really took off good … nor did I ever make allot of money from it.  He worked hard .. all the time … and he never gave me a problem about working.  ok .. a few times he would say maybe I should go to work … and to tell the truth, back before I got sick … I just hated working!  I would find excuses … and he would accept them. Now .. I truly am sick … and it’s hard to imagine myself working full time … I’m almost positive I can’t.  I’m not sure about part time … I do know that I’m painting … and selling the paintings a little on ebay.  I just made a few cloth dolls and sold a them on ebay also.  I have an idea I’m working on with a few other women … with dolls .. and it might go over well and bring in some income … and I’ve thought of having home shows with dolls that other folks make … and I resell .. but I’m not sure I have the energy for that either.  I’d really love to work on my paintings … and sell them more often. I may HAVE to go to work part time…. but it scares me so! He did so many things he didn’t have to do .. before he left …. he gave me his BIG monitor .. his new mouse, and ALL his memory … so I could have a nice computer system to work with.  He also gave me the printer.  He took out the mattress he had been sleeping on this morning before going to work … and he put his clothes in a plastic garbage bag.    :-( It hurt me so much to see him have to give up everything!  I had a short talk with him before he left … and told him that I’ve tried to do this as nice as I can … and that he knew we had to separate, that he wanted it too … and there was no easy way of doing it.  I told him I was so sorry that he had no money or place to stay … but I was scared for myself too … what I’m going to do … where I’m getting the money to live. He acted upset .. and hurt … more upset .. annoyed .. angry .. and that made me feel worse. I just don’t know … I’m so confused!  I’m SO scared that he’ll be in another woman’s arms soon … he’s in the pitcrew for his newphews racing team … and at the track there are so many opportunities.  I still do love him .. and yet I know he hurt me … and I know he wasn’t good for me in many ways … yet I hurt him too, and I wasn’t    good for him. I hate this!!  I know .. time .. time .. time .. but what if I made a mistake? ?????? I’m done now …. anybody? Dee

Response:

I just felt I needed to tell what he did to hurt me in our marriage… cause as I re-read my first post, I see me blaming myself for everything … well .. for allot. I think the things that hurt the most were:  him being immature and not standing up for me with his family, not taking MY side .. but theirs.  Not making his children respect me when they first met me.  His brother can do NO wrong … and he’s hurt me terribly standing up for his brother over me and my feelings.  When his nephews would talk vulgar and degrading about women (which is MOST of the time), and I told him it bothered me to be around them … he got mad at ME … telling me that’s how they are … and either I don’t go to the house … or I accept it… instead of him saying something .. standing up for me. He had a past with very young girls .. as you recall …. and I always felt (all though he never said this) that I was in competition with them … and with the last live-in 16 year old he was with.  She of course, was 16 .. and healthy … lively .. and loved the races!  Her father and brother raced too … so she was raised in it, and knew all about it .. which I never did.  I enjoyed going with him on occasion, but when I did … it would be the family that talks vulgar … and they pretty much ignored me most of the night … but Jim would get upset at me for not being more friendly … but I was .. it’s just that they’re so cold … and I feel very uncomfortable around them.  But he always wanted to go anyway … without me … and he did several times … and I sat home sad and lonely. He was very unaffectionate … and hardly ever hugged me, or kissed me on his own.  We could go for days without touching … if I didn’t approach him.  It was very hard on me.. as I’m a very lovable person.  Even when I DID approach him, many times he got annoyed … or would ‘grab’ me … and want sex.  Now mind you .. I love sex … probably more than he does … so that wasn’t a problem him wanting sex .. but it WAS a problem that sex was always ‘FU—-G’ if you can read between the letters.  And it was always quick and dirty .. him using very vulgar words and expressions.  I didn’t mind that once in a while … but not all the time!  When I would ask him to make love to me … he would get annoyed and not know what to do! And when I tried talking to him about these things .. he would get mad or annoyed and say that if I didn’t find fault (that’s his way of saying that I want to talk about things that were bothering me) … then he could be the husband I needed.  I doubt it .. cause when we were in marriage counseling … I followed the counselor and went 2 straight weeks without asking him for anything … or picking on him … or finding any fault .. or asking him to talk .. nothing.  I was as sweet and loving and helpful to him as I could be.  What happened?  He got me flowers once .. and that’s it!  He dropped the bomb on me … and never did much of anything else .. that the counselor told him to work on.  The counselor told me that he just didn’t want to work on his life .. or our marriage.  ’sigh’ His whole family is cold … and hard to get close to … and critical .. so I guess he’s part of the family! I really didn’t mean to just come in here and bash him … I guess I’m sort of journaling publicly .. to see how he’s hurt me … to remember … but .. ’sigh’ … when I feel sad about things .. it still doesn’t help.    :-( Hold my hand guys … and lend a shoulder … this is the hard time’s a comin! Hugs, Dee

Response:

I’m just gonna vent and spill out my feelings for a bit .. hope you don’t mind … I sit here feeling terrible … as expected I’m sure.  I know it seems that when a bad thing stops, it’s suppose to be good … but not so … at least not right away.  How could I make him leave his home?  The only place he knew?  His office sits there with his computer, his papers … books .. software .. he SO wanted to learn Dreamweaver … I sit here crying as I type … cause I’m not so sure I wasn’t the one who made this go bad. I know .. you will say I’m blaming myself … and letting him get to me … but no .. not really .. I guess I’m really trying to be  honest with myself. I wasn’t the perfect wife by no means … I mean… I know the REASON I yelled at him … and bitched … was because he hurt me .. and wasn’t there for me.. but he wasn’t there for me the way "I" wanted him to be … the way I needed.   Was that HIS fault?  Or was it just that he wasn’t the man I needed .. and never could be … and all my yellling and bitching … and calling him names .. and yes I admit .. I did call him so pretty bad things… did any of that help?  No!  All it did was push him further from me … and hurt him inside.  I guess I wish he were feeling these things too … it would make it easier on me .. that he’s hurting too .. that he’s sorry HE hurt ME too … He did so many things for me … while married … and before he left .. he set me up with my own business in the beginning .. not pushing me to work … and just work on my business … I did that for many years .. and did bring in some income .. but I would quit one idea and go to the next .. so my business never really took off good … nor did I ever make allot of money from it.  He worked hard .. all the time … and he never gave me a problem about working.  ok .. a few times he would say maybe I should go to work … and to tell the truth, back before I got sick … I just hated working!  I would find excuses … and he would accept them. Now .. I truly am sick … and it’s hard to imagine myself working full time … I’m almost positive I can’t.  I’m not sure about part time … I do know that I’m painting … and selling the paintings a little on ebay.  I just made a few cloth dolls and sold a them on ebay also.  I have an idea I’m working on with a few other women … with dolls .. and it might go over well and bring in some income … and I’ve thought of having home shows with dolls that other folks make … and I resell .. but I’m not sure I have the energy for that either.  I’d really love to work on my paintings … and sell them more often. I may HAVE to go to work part time…. but it scares me so! He did so many things he didn’t have to do .. before he left …. he gave me his BIG monitor .. his new mouse, and ALL his memory … so I could have a nice computer system to work with.  He also gave me the printer.  He took out the mattress he had been sleeping on this morning before going to work … and he put his clothes in a plastic garbage bag.    :-( It hurt me so much to see him have to give up everything!  I had a short talk with him before he left … and told him that I’ve tried to do this as nice as I can … and that he knew we had to separate, that he wanted it too … and there was no easy way of doing it.  I told him I was so sorry that he had no money or place to stay … but I was scared for myself too … what I’m going to do … where I’m getting the money to live. He acted upset .. and hurt … more upset .. annoyed .. angry .. and that made me feel worse. I just don’t know … I’m so confused!  I’m SO scared that he’ll be in another woman’s arms soon … he’s in the pitcrew for his newphews racing team … and at the track there are so many opportunities.  I still do love him .. and yet I know he hurt me … and I know he wasn’t good for me in many ways … yet I hurt him too, and I wasn’t good for him.    I hate this!!  I know .. time .. time .. time .. but what if I made a mistake? ?????? I’m done now …. anybody? Dee

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Question:

I am on celexa, and for me the sexual side effects are the same, very low desire.  Best of luck to you! Chad Love is true when you can’t see eye to eye, but can still walk hand in hand.

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:Hi, i have been on  zoloft(50mgs) with .25 xanax(as needed) for about a :year now. i have not had a panic attack since but feel i could panic at :times. i am a compulsive thinker and usually have the "anxiety" feeling :in my stomach(knots or whatever). i think i want to try celexa but dont :want to screw up my progress i have with zoloft but zoloft seems to make :me numb and dumb. i use to be very sexual but now i can care less about :sex. before when i saw arousing things(naked women) my heart would pound :and i would get that "aroused" feeling. now i could look at nudity and :get the same effect as a gardening magazine:((  i heard celexa has less :sexual side effects so this is why i am considering switching meds. my :sexual side effect from zoloft is not impotence but very low desire and :ejaculation takes very very long. any ideas on celexa for me? :experiences? anything?

Celexa may have less effect on your libido, or it may be worse. The only way to find out is to try it. In most cases you can switch between SSRIs (and SSRIs to TCAs, SSNRIs) overnight. But there are other things you could try first.  Do a search of ASAP’s archives at Deja (or whatever they are now called) for " sexual dysfunction ". Best wishes Ian

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Hi, i have been on  zoloft(50mgs) with .25 xanax(as needed) for about a year now. i have not had a panic attack since but feel i could panic at times. i am a compulsive thinker and usually have the "anxiety" feeling in my stomach(knots or whatever). i think i want to try celexa but dont want to screw up my progress i have with zoloft but zoloft seems to make me numb and dumb. i use to be very sexual but now i can care less about sex. before when i saw arousing things(naked women) my heart would pound and i would get that "aroused" feeling. now i could look at nudity and get the same effect as a gardening magazine:((  i heard celexa has less sexual side effects so this is why i am considering switching meds. my sexual side effect from zoloft is not impotence but very low desire and ejaculation takes very very long. any ideas on celexa for me? experiences? anything?

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Question:

How do you deal with it? I’m having a difficult time with these issues

right now. I feel that the number one goal in my life right now is to get healthy, and find a "path" with heart, but my mind keeps dwelling on my lack of true, deep, committed relationships, with friends or a lover… I was talking to someone once about priorities and in which order should you establish a healthy foundation upon which to build a strong loving relationship. The person I was with sighted the aircraft safety routine as a suitable example as how to survive. In the event of a cabin depressurization the oxygen masks drop from the locker above for you to place over your face, but sat next to you is your child. Should you place the mask on yourself first and then onto your child or should you attend to your child first? The aircraft safety videos recommend that your priority is yourself first and then those around you because you’re little if any use to anyone else if in pain or worse still – dead. Yes I know it’s trite but it’s oh so true, if you’re to have a healthy and happy relationship then it’s essential that you learn to love yourself first. The love of someone else can be like oxygen and take you high and makes you feel wonderful, but alas what happens when they deprive you of that oxygen, you fall crumpled into a heap on the floor struggling for breath. You have to learn to breath for yourself. There’s the opposite swing to that pendulum which is just as bad, if not worse, that of being too capable and not needing anyone. I don’t know which is the lesser of the two crappy situations. But as a certain asd’er would say "it’s all about balance". Your number one goal is to get healthy, the rest will follow. Regards Michael

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p&e I’m there, knowing and living the feeling, Trevor.  I would be content to just have the connection part right now.  Someone to hold my hand and tell me that they could give and receive what I take and share. Karl I still remember the dream there I still remember the time you said goodbye – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – But boy, what I wouldn’t do to have someone to hold tonight, and not just anyone, but someone I could love, and connect with on many levels.

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How do you deal with it? I’m having a difficult time with these issues right now. I feel that the number one goal in my life right now is to get healthy, and find a "path" with heart, but my mind keeps dwelling on my lack of true, deep, committed relationships, with friends or a lover… Recommended reading: R.D. Laing, "The Politics of Experience." It’s helping me get through this. But boy, what I wouldn’t do to have someone to hold tonight, and not just anyone, but someone I could love, and connect with on many levels. Alas, I’m sleeping with myself tonight. Trevor "THIS IS NOT A TEST" Pratt ICQ#36663009

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It’s a good analogy Michael.

Thanks Trevor but I can’t claim the credit for it I get really devastated when I break up with someone. I think I must have an abandonment issue somewhere…my father, maybe. Not getting enough love from my mom? Being sexually abused by my stepfather. I don’t know.

Not only are the above issues to be considered Trevor, but they now form the fundamental structure to those behavioral patterns we employ when faced with parallel issues such as love, belonging, need etc (aside from the sexual abuse we share similar experiences). The one thing I’ve learnt is to accept that we have what society would affectionately term a warped sense of normality meaning that we can’t have a regular relationship without working flat out to maintain normality, not to smother, not to be aloof, overly self protective, abusive etc. I have had to learn what normal means if I’m to share my existence with a partner. My normality runs in-between self imposed parallel lines, boundaries of constraint. When someone behaves in a way that forces me to cross my parameter fence, I have to stop and ask myself "is this normal, is this safe, am I to explore previously uncharted grounds or am I being attacked?"  There are times I would give anything to know what a normal well adjusted person thinks when presented with something beyond their normal perceived range of vision. In adult life we rarely stop to change or readjust our emotional clothing, but carry on wearing those same old clothes that no longer fit. When confronted with a situation that bears a passing resemblance to a past experience such as looking for love, being needed etc – we engage automatic and travel along our established route, a route which is now redundant and only goes to Disaster Street. The first thing we do when we’ve crapped up another situation is beat the living shit out of ourselves, but that’s like punishing a child for being blind and letting the child that blinded him – go free. : I don’t think I could take being alone for the rest of my life, and that’s one of my greatest fears. It may sound a callus thing to say Trevor but if you’re to find what you’re looking for then it’s essential that you work on yourself first. People like us can’t rush into relationships carrying out pasts upon our backs because we don’t have regular and therefore safe notions of love, need, confidence and security. If you rush into a situation without hiding some of those intimidating legacies then you’re gonna scare ten bells of crap out of everyone Regards Michael

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was talking to someone once about priorities and in which order should you establish a healthy foundation upon which to build a strong loving relationship. The person I was with sighted the aircraft safety routine as a suitable example as how to survive. In the event of a cabin depressurization the oxygen masks drop from the locker above for you to place over your face, but sat next to you is your child. Should you place the mask on yourself first and then onto your child or should you attend to your child first? The aircraft safety videos recommend that your priority is yourself first and then those around you because you’re little if any use to anyone else if in pain or worse still – dead. Yes I know it’s trite but it’s oh so true, if you’re to have a healthy and happy relationship then it’s essential that you learn to love yourself first. The love of someone else can be like oxygen and take you high and makes you feel wonderful, but alas what happens when they deprive you of that oxygen, you fall crumpled into a heap on the floor struggling for breath. You have to learn to breath for yourself.

It’s a good analogy Michael. I get really devastated when I break up with someone. I think I must have an abandonment issue somewhere…my father, maybe. Not getting enough love from my mom? Being sexually abused by my stepfather. I don’t know. There’s the opposite swing to that pendulum which is just as bad, if not worse, that of being too capable and not needing anyone. I don’t know which is the lesser of the two crappy situations. But as a certain asd’er would say "it’s all about balance". Your number one goal is to get healthy, the rest will follow. Regards Michael

Thanks Michael. Balance. Because we’re never going to be perfect. We are not rocks. We are not islands. (Lots of song metaphors going on in this thread Love is like oxygen, you get too much, you get too high, not enough and you’re gonna die) I’m actually feeling less "crazed" about being alone than, say last month, or the month before that, but then I wonder, where is that point? The point when I’m ok to love someone, and they love me. Can I love myself if I’m depressed? I think that I’m pretty ok, actually, not great, not horrible, but some- place in-between. I have depression, and Essential Tremor. I’m also very smart, kinda attractive in an unusual way (androgenous, I guess, especially since my once long hair is now about 1/2in" long!), known to diplay wit and humour at times, and an extremely empathetic person. (Working hard at being non-judgemental right now) I think I like myself. Is that not good enough? How healthy do I have to be to deserve love? How fucking long do I have to wait for a good person to come along? Is it bad to need love? Healthy love? Need? Want? What does it all mean? Ahhhhhhhg. I’m so confused. I see people all around me with lovers, partners, husbands, wives, children. Are they better than me in some way? Looking at them, it doesn’t seem so. I can live without someone’s arms around me, someone to be intimate with. I’ve been doing it for quite some time. I’m still alive. I just feel a longing, that’s it, a longing to have someone understand me, and care, and vice-verca. I don’t think I could take being alone for the rest of my life, and that’s one of my greatest fears. Namaste, Trevor

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Question:

David responds: You are lucky that you only felt a little wired! Approximately 25% of people who have used Zoloft and Prozac type meds have experienced some of the MANY side effects listed on the rap sheet available at the pharmacy. Of those 25% I experienced a reaction several hours after taking my first pill; nausea and diarrhea. The next day, after taking my second pill, I plunged headlong into every known side effect listed by the pharmaceutical company and then some. I was not predisposed to expect any; in fact my GP made it sound like this was a miracle drug, cure-all and I couldn’t wait to take it in anticipation of relief from PD. After the second pill I experienced the following violent reactions: -Severe nausea without vomitting -Six substantial bowel discharges of pink water only -Vertigo so severe, that I had to crawl to the toilet -Stabbing pinpoint pain in the back of my head, lower left side -Severe chills while sweating profusely alternating with… -Severe hot flashes, while my skin was contracting into goosebumps -Total body weakness -Body spasms -Upon closing my eyes, pictures of brilliantly coloured (dazzling) mundane objects would rotate through my ‘mind’s eye’, akin to what people have described while on a bad LSD trip. -Uncontrollable shaking and trembling -Inability to sleep for two full nights It took three days to recuperate enough to be able to get up and around again. I checked with my doctor and pharmacist and both claimed that none of these symtoms were unusual but said that most people who do experience side effects, only have one or two at most. However, my supervisor at work had taken Zoloft a year prior to me and had never spoken about his experience till I told him mine. He had suffered the same reactions on the day of his second pill. Just recounting my experience brought him to tears, thinking back to how bad his reaction had been. I was switched to Paxil and then to Manerix (sp??) Both of those drugs caused lesser but totally intolerable side effects mostly in the GI tract. One year after my encounter with Zoloft, a young woman at the office was prescribed the same drug and dosage and she only experienced nausea for the first week and then was perfectly fine. However, three years into her therapy and still on Zoloft, she has not conquered one symptom of PD and is now on long term disability insurance, unable to work and suffering severely from agoraphobia.  She considers it a triumph to get out of her flat once a month, with the help of two friends; one on either side of her. Three years of Zoloft and at thirty three she has been reduced to a fearful, agoraphobic, unemployed and suicidal mess. While I agree that different drug therapies and also combinations of therapies are needed based on the individual rather than the disorder, I would tend to agree that benzos are most efficient for PD. My specialist agrees and only uses Paxil or Zoloft if firstly, the patient can tolerate it, and secondly, they have chronic depression as well as PD. He has been treating PD exclusively for 25 years and finds that almost everyone who cannot tolerate Prozac family of drugs for depression, can tolerate Imipramine. Unfortunately one must go through 4-6 weeks of  extremely light sleep before tolerating it. This is the reason that Imipramine was prescribed at one time for children who were bed-wetters. It kept them from achieving deep levels of sleep, given in short, periodic doses. I think you will find great success with the benzo route but do not be discouraged if  Klonopin is not the one which works for you and your body chemistry. I had miraculous freedom from severe PD in a three stage therapy starting with Xanax (extremely fast acting, short lived), euphoric relief with Lectopam (medium lasting) as my doctor brought me down to Rivotril (very long lasting) which keeps the symtoms at bay but not as effectively as the fast acting benzos. My advice would be that if the Klonopin is not working to your satisfction within ten days, it probably is not the drug you need and you should try a new one. Good luck with your new meds.!! David To other readers; I am not knocking Zoloft as a med. I just feel that people should be aware that they MIGHT be unfortunate enough to experience mild to severe side effects. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I guess Zoloft and I were not a match made in heaven.  After just three days I found myself so wired last night, I felt like I had eaten an entire package of No Doz!  This was entirely different than the generalized anxiety I often feel.  I called the p-doc around 10:30 and he told me to stop taking it.  I’m seeing him Friday to talk about what’s next. Probably benzos.  Most likely Klonopin.  So, all of you Klonopin success stories–I’d love to hear them! Iris —

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IMO, we should all become our own doctors as it’s our bodies.  No, I don’t mean not to consult an actual doctor; you know what I mean. Love and hugs to the whooooole board.  Janie. I entirely agree with you, Janie – that we need to educate ourselves to the maximum about our conditions and then work *with* our doctors

Not that you would ever be encouraged by any doctor to actually do so of course…  Job security and all that. Iris —

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I’m becoming more convinced of that everyday.  Based on what I’ve read here and elsewhere, it seems benzos have the better track record by far. That’s not to discount SSRI’s or any AD, but for dealing with the disabling panic quickly, benzos seem to be the way to go.  My thought now is to deal with the panic and anticipatory anxiety which is crippling me right now.  Then, if I find some underlying depression, or things still a

Iris, even when I took SSRI’s for Depression, they made me so agitated that I had to take them with Klonopin. this was way before I had PD. So I have strong opinions about treating PD with SSRIs as the first step. Benzos would seem a much wiser way to go. As Cooper said, there is no proven link between Serotonin and PD as there is with Serotonin and Depression. That’s why my Doc back in Boston was adamant about my going on Parnate, an MAO, and sticking with the Benzos. He does nothing but research in psychopharmacology and really knows this stuff backwards and forwards. And he’s been following me from a distance and hooking me up with good docs wherever I move to,  for 17 years, even though I’ve been gone from Boston all that time. As us Jews say, this is a real "mensch". This means MAN in Yiddish. As in good, responsible, kind, etc.. Listen, this guy is a genius. his name is Dr. Harrison Pope. He’s at McLean Hospital in Belmont. He does 99% research but he does have one patient. I call it his private private private practice. At the very least he could refer you to someone who knows PD inside and out. He knows everyone in and out of Boston who’s in the field. This may not be covered by insurance but it would be worth it to talk to someone who really cares and really knows his stuff. He was in the Esquire "most promising people under 40" section. Has been on 20/20, etc. Sorry to extoll his virtues ad nauseum but I don’t like or trust many people and he’s one of those few. If you want, e-mail me and I will hook you up with him. He’s a doll and he listens and he cares. I’m sorry I didn’t think of this sooner. I only recently figured out that you live in Boston and that you were only on an AD. I really believe that that Benzos will help you, Iris. You deserve to sleep and have some quality of life. If the doc you have doesn’t listen to you or doesn’t seem knowledgeable, then let me know. All of us in here are praying for you, Iris. all our love, Veronica et al WRITER/CATCH MY TRAIN OF THOUGHT "You can’t have everything. Where would you put it?" (Steven Wright)

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David responds: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – (Casamiro) writes: own doctor! Iris IMO, we should all become our own doctors as it’s our bodies.  No, I don’t mean not to consult an actual doctor; you know what I mean.   ME TOO.  In fact, my own doctor believes this as well.  He thinks people need to read up and be informed of what is going on, as not all doctors do.  He also left the option to take xanax as my choice, since he told me it was ‘addictive’ and I would need to be weaned off of it.

My doctor has been treating PD for over twenty-five years and he encourages  his patients to participate in their meds therapy. As a responsible and caring doctor, he encourages all patients who are able, to become their own ’specialist’ by providing as much info as possible about PD and about the meds. In his book on PD he lists several pages of treatment therapies based on how the PD is manifesting, by sypmtoms. He also speaks harshly about people (doctors and researchers included)  who say that certain meds such as Xanax are "addictive". The analogy is; is insulin addictive given that a diabetic needs it every day and suffers seriously if the drug is withdrawn?  The same applies to Xanax, one of the most beneficial drugs in fighting PD. So much bullshit is put on the ‘net about Xanax and people love to recount their horror stories of coming "off" the drug. If someone has an allergic reaction, I can sympathize since I am allergic to many meds including pain killers, but this is a different issue.  The problem with Xanax is that it is clean, efficient, fast acting and not only controls PD but eliminates it for the short duration that it stays active in one’s body. The sad part is that most GPs will only prescribe .5 mg. three times per day, when the American Psychiatric Ass. recommends that up to 6-9 mg. may be required to effectively control PD. One of the reasons that doctors try to get patients off Xanax and on a slow acting benzo is simply to eliminate the need to take pills every two to three hours.  I feel sorry for those who recount all the terrible withdrawal symptoms and the living hell they went through coming off Xanax, when in fact all that really happened was a reoccurrence of PD symptoms. It’s sad that people with PD can’t recognize the symptoms of their own disorder and try to blame them on drug withdrawal. One more reason that we need to be ‘our own doctors’. Not by securing drugs without the consent of a doctor, but by becoming aware of the nature of PD and each of the many symptoms it creates. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Lee

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Hi, Iris. I just tried to send you email but it bounced.  Do you have spam-preventing characters in your address, perchance? Thanks — –Kathleen — "Hope is the thing with feathers" — Emily Dickinson Delete * in address to reply by e-mail

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(Casamiro) writes: own doctor! Iris

IMO, we should all become our own doctors as it’s our bodies.  No, I don’t mean

not to consult an actual doctor; you know what I mean.

  ME TOO.  In fact, my own doctor believes this as well.  He thinks people need to read up and be informed of what is going on, as not all doctors do.  He also left the option to take xanax as my choice, since he told me it was ‘addictive’ and I would need to be weaned off of it. Lee A little snogging goes a long way… <EG

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I guess Zoloft and I were not a match made in heaven.  After just three days I found myself so wired last night, I felt like I had eaten an entire package of No Doz!  This was entirely different than the generalized anxiety I often feel.  I called the p-doc around 10:30 and he told me to

stop taking it.  I’m seeing him Friday to talk about what’s next.

Probably benzos.  Most likely Klonopin.  So, all of you Klonopin success

stories–I’d love to hear them!   Sorry to hear this Iris.  But at least now you know you can take medication. That in itself is something to celebrate.  Good luck with the next one :):) Lee A little snogging goes a long way… <EG

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David responds: You are lucky that you only felt a little wired! Approximately 25% of people who have used Zoloft and Prozac type meds have experienced some of the MANY side effects listed on the rap sheet available at the pharmacy. Of those 25% I experienced a reaction several hours after taking my first pill; nausea and diarrhea. The next day, after taking my second pill, I plunged headlong into every known side effect listed by the pharmaceutical company and then some. I was not predisposed to expect any; in fact my GP made it sound like this was a miracle drug, cure-all and I couldn’t wait to take it in anticipation of relief from PD. After the second pill I experienced the following violent reactions: -Severe nausea without vomitting -Six substantial bowel discharges of pink water only -Vertigo so severe, that I had to crawl to the toilet -Stabbing pinpoint pain in the back of my head, lower left side -Severe chills while sweating profusely alternating with… -Severe hot flashes, while my skin was contracting into goose bumps -Total body weakness -Body spasms -Upon closing my eyes, pictures of brilliantly coloured (dazzling) mundane objects would rotate through my ‘mind’s eye’, akin to what people have described while on a bad LSD trip. -Uncontrollable shaking and trembling -Inability to sleep for two full nights It took three days to recuperate enough to be able to get up and around again. I checked with my doctor and pharmacist and both claimed that none of these symptoms were unusual but said that most people who do experience side effects, only have one or two at most. However, my supervisor at work had taken Zoloft a year prior to me and had never spoken about his experience till I told him mine. He had suffered the same reactions on the day of his second pill. Just recounting my experience brought him to tears, thinking back to how bad his reaction had been. I was switched to Paxil and then to Manerix (sp??) Both of those drugs caused lesser but totally intolerable side effects mostly in the GI tract. One year after my encounter with Zoloft, a young woman at the office was prescribed the same drug and dosage and she only experienced nausea for the first week and then was perfectly fine. However, three years into her therapy and still on Zoloft, she has not conquered one symptom of PD and is now on long term disability insurance, unable to work and suffering severely from agoraphobia.  She considers it a triumph to get out of her flat once a month, with the help of two friends; one on either side of her. Three years of Zoloft and at thirty three she has been reduced to a fearful, agoraphobic, unemployed and suicidal mess. While I agree that different drug therapies and also combinations of therapies are needed based on the individual rather than the disorder, I would tend to agree that benzos are most efficient for PD. My specialist agrees and only uses Paxil or Zoloft if firstly, the patient can tolerate it, and secondly, they have chronic depression as well as PD. He has been treating PD exclusively for 25 years and finds that almost everyone who cannot tolerate Prozac family of drugs for depression, can tolerate Imipramine. Unfortunately one must go through 4-6 weeks of  extremely light sleep before tolerating it. This is the reason that Imipramine was prescribed at one time for children who were bed-wetters. It kept them from achieving deep levels of sleep, given in short, periodic doses. I think you will find great success with the benzo route but do not be discouraged if  Klonopin is not the one which works for you and your body chemistry. I had miraculous freedom from severe PD in a three stage therapy starting with Xanax (extremely fast acting, short lived), euphoric relief with Lectopam (medium lasting) as my doctor brought me down to Rivotril (very long lasting) which keeps the symtoms at bay but not as effectively as the fast acting benzos. My advice would be that if the Klonopin is not working to your satisfaction within ten days, it probably is not the drug you need and you should try a new one. Good luck with your new meds.!! David To other readers; I am not knocking Zoloft as a med. I just feel that people should be aware that they MIGHT be unfortunate enough to experience mild to severe side effects. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I guess Zoloft and I were not a match made in heaven.  After just three days I found myself so wired last night, I felt like I had eaten an entire package of No Doz!  This was entirely different than the generalized anxiety I often feel.  I called the p-doc around 10:30 and he told me to stop taking it.  I’m seeing him Friday to talk about what’s next. Probably benzos.  Most likely Klonopin.  So, all of you Klonopin success stories–I’d love to hear them! Iris —

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The doctor put me on zoloft for depression and panic attacks with agorophobia and the result was like magic, at least with respect to the panic attacks: after 24 hours (1 dose!) NO MORE PANIC ATTACKS and no more AGOROPHOBIA!  The depression remains and I continue to take the Zoloft for it.  The major side effect that I experience is insomnia (can’t get to sleep) but once I get to sleep I sleep better than ever. I just got some Ambien for sleep — I’ll try the first pill tonight.   I just hope that it works for my depression.  I have read that it takes between 7 and 28 days to see the antidepressant effects of Zoloft.  I’m taking only 50 mg a day.

I’m very glad you are able to take the Zoloft with such success.  However, I don’t know if it is that effective after just one dose. When I took Zoloft, the big buzz would set in 10-12 hours after I took it.  I was taking my dose in the morning, but in retrospect, taking it at night would have been better.  If you think about when the drug affects you most and adjust the timing of your dose accordingly, it may help. Sorry I can’t be more optimistic re: Zoloft.  I only took it 4 days but I couldn’t stand the way it made me feel. Iris —

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doctor! Iris

IMO, we should all become our own doctors as it’s our bodies.  No, I don’t mean not to consult an actual doctor; you know what I mean. Love and hugs to the whooooole board.  Janie.

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I’m becoming more convinced of that everyday.  Based on what I’ve read here and elsewhere, it seems benzos have the better track record by far. That’s not to discount SSRI’s or any AD, but for dealing with the disabling panic quickly, benzos seem to be the way to go.  My thought now is to deal with the panic and anticipatory anxiety which is crippling me right now.  Then, if I find some underlying depression, or things still aren’t "right" I’d consider the AD.  In this case, most likely Prozac since I have two family members who have taken it for depression with no side effects (three, if you count our dog!).  Also, Prozac can be taken in liquid form, so I could start with as little as 2-5 mg and work my way up.

Actually, that’s a very good point, Iris. A long while ago, the reminder that Prozac is available in liquid form was commonly given on this NG and we’ve rather let that drop of late. It could be the ideal way for people starting Prozac to begin. Sheesh–I"m becoming my own doctor!

Who else would you trust? — Gary Cooper

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IMO, we should all become our own doctors as it’s our bodies.  No, I don’t mean not to consult an actual doctor; you know what I mean. Love and hugs to the whooooole board.  Janie.

I entirely agree with you, Janie – that we need to educate ourselves to the maximum about our conditions and then work *with* our doctors — Gary Cooper

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The doctor put me on zoloft for depression and panic attacks with agorophobia and the result was like magic, at least with respect to the panic attacks: after 24 hours (1 dose!) NO MORE PANIC ATTACKS and no more AGOROPHOBIA!  The depression remains and I continue to take the Zoloft for it.  The major side effect that I experience is insomnia (can’t get to sleep) but once I get to sleep I sleep better than ever. I just got some Ambien for sleep — I’ll try the first pill tonight.   I just hope that it works for my depression.  I have read that it takes between 7 and 28 days to see the antidepressant effects of Zoloft.  I’m taking only 50 mg a day.

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Boy, I hope Klonopin has fewer side effects!  I’m just now, at 4 pm the next day, starting to feel more "normal" (whatever normal is for a PD sufferer).  I’m just realizing how jittery I felt the last few days

Sorry this didn’t work for you, Iris but at least you tried and I know that was a big step for you. I hope you are giving yourself credit for that. I just got a lecture from a friend of mine who was on Xanax and Zoloft for quite some time.  She’s off the Xanax now, but still on Zoloft.  She told me she thought benzos wouldn’t solve the problem as they don’t affect serotonin levels, etc., etc.  I told her she might not have been able to stand the Zoloft if she hadn’t been on Xanax first.

Good response and sounds like someone you might need to tune out a bit in your quest for what works for you. Sigh.  I don’t know what the right answer is.

If only it was the same for all of us.  I suppose it’s whatever works for me, isn’t it?

Yup, and you will find it.  I think you will find the benzos much more…user friendly.  Good luck! Gwen

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Hi Iris I have a suggestion.  My Dr. has discussed using prozac for me eventually.  Now he knows of my fear of meds and I have not been able to get on an AD so far. The way he told me we would do it is to take a 10 mg prozac and open it into a 4oz baby bottle of apple juice.  That way I can start on a very very low dosage 1/2 oz a day and then 1 oz a day etc…  He said I would feel less side effects that way and the meds would build up slowly plus it gives me some control over the med.  Maybe you could mention this to your dr. and see if it would be an option for you also.  It will take longer to get to a therapeutic dosage but at least it would help with the side effects Blessings, Kelly

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Boy, I hope Klonopin has fewer side effects!  I’m just now, at 4 pm the next day, starting to feel more "normal" (whatever normal is for a PD sufferer).  I’m just realizing how jittery I felt the last few days.  By last night I wasn’t even able to think straight.  My 7 year old beat me in checkers around 3pm.  By 7pm I was climbing the walls.  I didn’t sleep all night.  I woke up wired.  I can’t stand that "buzzed" feeling.  I’m hoping for better results with a benzo.  My p-doc says he might still want to try an AD on me–perhaps Prozac since my sister was on it with no side effects.  Perhaps we’ll see.  If Klonopin can do the trick right now, so be it.

Hi, Iris – I’d have thought there’s every chance that Klonopin will do the trick. To be honest, I grow more sceptical by the day about the current policy of resorting to SSRIs first. The worst Klonopin is likely to do is make you drowsy, IMO. I just got a lecture from a friend of mine who was on Xanax and Zoloft for quite some time.  She’s off the Xanax now, but still on Zoloft.  She told me she thought benzos wouldn’t solve the problem as they don’t affect serotonin levels, etc., etc.  I told her she might not have been able to stand the Zoloft if she hadn’t been on Xanax first.

Your friend’s wrong. There is no certainty that serotonin is the implicated chemical in A/PD – it could be one of several, including GABA, which is what benzos work on. This is a case of YMMV and what worked for her simply may not be right for you. Sigh.  I don’t know what the right answer is.  I suppose it’s whatever works for me, isn’t it?

Cetainly is – good luck! — Gary Cooper

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Hi, Iris – I’d have thought there’s every chance that Klonopin will do the trick. To be honest, I grow more sceptical by the day about the current policy of resorting to SSRIs first. The worst Klonopin is likely to do is make you drowsy, IMO.

I’m becoming more convinced of that everyday.  Based on what I’ve read here and elsewhere, it seems benzos have the better track record by far. That’s not to discount SSRI’s or any AD, but for dealing with the disabling panic quickly, benzos seem to be the way to go.  My thought now is to deal with the panic and anticipatory anxiety which is crippling me right now.  Then, if I find some underlying depression, or things still aren’t "right" I’d consider the AD.  In this case, most likely Prozac since I have two family members who have taken it for depression with no side effects (three, if you count our dog!).  Also, Prozac can be taken in liquid form, so I could start with as little as 2-5 mg and work my way up. Sheesh–I"m becoming my own doctor! Iris I just got a lecture from a friend of mine who was on Xanax and Zoloft for quite some time.  She’s off the Xanax now, but still on Zoloft.  She told me she thought benzos wouldn’t solve the problem as they don’t affect serotonin levels, etc., etc.  I told her she might not have been able to stand the Zoloft if she hadn’t been on Xanax first. Your friend’s wrong. There is no certainty that serotonin is the implicated chemical in A/PD – it could be one of several, including GABA, which is what benzos work on. This is a case of YMMV and what worked for her simply may not be right for you.

She had terrible depression as well, which at this point, I haven’t seen in myself. Iris —

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Iris I have a suggestion.  My Dr. has discussed using prozac for me eventually.  Now he knows of my fear of meds and I have not been able to get on an AD so far. The way he told me we would do it is to take a 10 mg prozac and open it into a 4oz baby bottle of apple juice.  That way I can start on a very very low dosage 1/2 oz a day and then 1 oz a day etc…  He said I would feel less side effects that way and the meds would build up slowly plus it gives me some control over the med.  Maybe you could mention this to your dr. and see if it would be an option for you also.  It will take longer to get to a therapeutic dosage but at least it would help with the side effects Blessings, Kelly

Good suggestion. As I posted earlier in response to Gary’s post, I’m going to get on the benzo first, see how that goes, then review whether or not I need the AD.  If so, Prozac may be a good choice for me. Iris —

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I guess Zoloft and I were not a match made in heaven.  After just three days I found myself so wired last night, I felt like I had eaten an entire package of No Doz!  This was entirely different than the generalized anxiety I often feel.  I called the p-doc around 10:30 and he told me to stop taking it.  I’m seeing him Friday to talk about what’s next. Probably benzos.  Most likely Klonopin.  So, all of you Klonopin success stories–I’d love to hear them! Iris —

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I’ve been maintained on Klonopin for at least 8 years.  I was able to start attending college.  Hey, I was even able to SIT in the class without running for the nearest door…. I can tell you some stories about speech class!  Talk about being shaky, but I made it.  Hopefully, it will work for you, too.

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I couldnt tolerate Zoloft either.  Klonopin has helped anxiety, not a cure by any means, but it helps without any side effects.  Good luck PETER

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I guess Zoloft and I were not a match made in heaven.  After just threedays I

found myself so wired last night, I felt like I had eaten an entirepackage of No Doz!  This was entirely different than the generalizedanxiety I often feel.  I called the p-doc around 10:30 and he told me tostop taking it.  I’m seeing him Friday to talk about what’s next. Probably benzos.  Most likely Klonopin.  So, all of you Klonopin success stories–I’d love to hear them! Iris Been on Klonopin for about 10 yrs – - currently on .5(1/2mg.) 3 x per day (a

low dose IMO) for panic and generalized anxiety.  I’m also on 20 mg Paxil for depression.  Doing well on these dosages except when I have to do something out of the ordinary, like today I’m going to a new gym so I know I will have a huge amount of anxiety.   My vote’s for Klonopin!  Good luck.  Love, Janie. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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I guess Zoloft and I were not a match made in heaven.  After just three days I found myself so wired last night, I felt like I had eaten an entire package of No Doz!  This was entirely different than the generalized anxiety I often feel.  I called the p-doc around 10:30 and he told me to stop taking it.  I’m seeing him Friday to talk about what’s next. Probably benzos.  Most likely Klonopin.  So, all of you Klonopin success stories–I’d love to hear them!

Sorry to hear it didn’t work out, Iris I’m one of those who also had a lot of problems with Zoloft and had to give it up – I’m sure you’ll be lots better with Klonopin, though as it has very few side effects. Good luck! — Gary Cooper

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I guess Zoloft and I were not a match made in heaven.  After just three days I found myself so wired last night, I felt like I had eaten an entire package of No Doz!  This was entirely different than the generalized anxiety I often feel.  I called the p-doc around 10:30 and he told me to stop taking it.  I’m seeing him Friday to talk about what’s next. Probably benzos.  Most likely Klonopin.  So, all of you Klonopin success stories–I’d love to hear them! Sorry to hear it didn’t work out, Iris I’m one of those who also had a lot of problems with Zoloft and had to give it up – I’m sure you’ll be lots better with Klonopin, though as it has very few side effects. Good luck! — Gary Cooper

Boy, I hope Klonopin has fewer side effects!  I’m just now, at 4 pm the next day, starting to feel more "normal" (whatever normal is for a PD sufferer).  I’m just realizing how jittery I felt the last few days.  By last night I wasn’t even able to think straight.  My 7 year old beat me in checkers around 3pm.  By 7pm I was climbing the walls.  I didn’t sleep all night.  I woke up wired.  I can’t stand that "buzzed" feeling.  I’m hoping for better results with a benzo.  My p-doc says he might still want to try an AD on me–perhaps Prozac since my sister was on it with no side effects.  Perhaps we’ll see.  If Klonopin can do the trick right now, so be it. I just got a lecture from a friend of mine who was on Xanax and Zoloft for quite some time.  She’s off the Xanax now, but still on Zoloft.  She told me she thought benzos wouldn’t solve the problem as they don’t affect serotonin levels, etc., etc.  I told her she might not have been able to stand the Zoloft if she hadn’t been on Xanax first. Sigh.  I don’t know what the right answer is.  I suppose it’s whatever works for me, isn’t it? Iris —

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Sorry to hear it didn’t work out, Iris I’m one of those who also had a lot of problems with Zoloft and had to give it up – I’m sure you’ll be lots better with Klonopin, though as it has very few side effects. Good luck! Gary Cooper Boy, I hope Klonopin has fewer side effects!  I’m just now, at 4 pm thenext

day, starting to feel more "normal" (whatever normal is for a PDsufferer). I’m just realizing how jittery I felt the last few days.  Bylast night I wasn’t even able to think straight.  My 7 year old beat me incheckers around 3pm.  By 7pm I was climbing the walls.  I didn’t sleep allnight.  I woke up wired.  I can’t stand that "buzzed" feeling.  I’m hopingfor better results with a benzo.  My p-doc says he might still want to tryan AD on me–perhaps Prozac since my sister was on it with no sideeffects.  Perhaps we’ll see.  If Klonopin can do the trick right now, sobe it. I just got a lecture from a friend of mine who was on Xanax and Zoloft

forquite some time.  She’s off the Xanax now, but still on Zoloft.  She toldme she thought benzos wouldn’t solve the problem as they don’t affectserotonin levels, etc., etc.  I told her she might not have been able tostand the Zoloft if she hadn’t been on Xanax first. Sigh.  I don’t know what the right answer is.  I suppose it’s whateverworks for me, isn’t it? Iris

Iris, I needed the Klonopin to control my GAD and PD.  Janie. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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