Question:

After reading your post on the allergy group a while back I tried adding a couple ml of hydrogen peroxide to a half bottle of Ocean salt water spray. This worked fine and seemed to really help. However after I ran out of this bottle and mixed up a batch myself, I either added too much hydrogen peroxide or my sinus infection was already well established as the second bottle seemed to irritate my already inflamed sinuses. I’ll try again with a weaker formulation after my sinuses heal. Thanks for the suggestions. — "Dissent is the highest form of patriotism"   Thomas Jefferson "CanDo" <rasm1…@bellsouth.net

wrote in message

news:rcwic.2918$7a5.2178@bignews6.bellsouth.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

After suffering with multiple sinus infections, year after year, for decades, I experimented with flooding my sinuses with a mixture of diluted 3% hydrogen peroxide, baking soda and kosher salt. I kept my forehead down for quite a while, hoping that the anti-infective mixture could get to the infected area(s) within my sinuses and nasal passages.  . It worked! I have been sinus infection free for about 30 months.  . I have fully documented my experience and how I did it at Healthboards.com. There are posts over there by people who have tried my "upside down sinus flooding", and by who don’t think that it is a good idea. I have no connection at all with Healthboards. I consider it to be the best facility for discussing  health problems on the Internet.  . To find out more, select one of the following links:  . Here is the link to a discussion about the "Upside Down Sinus Flooding": . http://www.healthboards.com/boards/showthread.php?t=129210  . Here is the link to the detailed documentation of the "Upside Down Sinus Flooding" and also some discussion:  . http://www.healthboards.com/boards/showthread.php?t=139765

Response:

NorthShoreCEO wrote:

What is the long term effect of hydrogen peroxide on tissue?  Does anyone know?

If you believe that the decomposition of h2o2 produces free radicals and you believe that free radicals can cause cancer then you may be inclined to believe that cancer could be a long term effect. I certainly wouldn’t take a chance being so close to the brain.

Response:

"knob" <h…@dontemailme.com

wrote in message

news:Ouajc.10$Q5.7@fe39.usenetserver.com…

NorthShoreCEO wrote: What is the long term effect of hydrogen peroxide on tissue?  Does anyone know? If you believe that the decomposition of h2o2 produces free radicals and you believe that free radicals can cause cancer then you may be inclined to believe that cancer could be a long term effect. I certainly wouldn’t take a chance being so close to the brain.

3% Hydrogen Peroxide has been used for decades by millions of people, for cuts and for gargling, to prevent infection and to help remove mucus and phlegm. It is readily available at most super markets, discount stores, retail stores, etc. There are no health warnings on the bottles. If you feel that it is a cancer risk, you should get in touch with the proper authorities and warn them.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -CanDo wrote:

"knob" <h…@dontemailme.com wrote in message news:Ouajc.10$Q5.7@fe39.usenetserver.com… NorthShoreCEO wrote: What is the long term effect of hydrogen peroxide on tissue?  Does anyone know? If you believe that the decomposition of h2o2 produces free radicals and you believe that free radicals can cause cancer then you may be inclined to believe that cancer could be a long term effect. I certainly wouldn’t take a chance being so close to the brain. 3% Hydrogen Peroxide has been used for decades by millions of people, for cuts and for gargling, to prevent infection and to help remove mucus and phlegm. It is readily available at most super markets, discount stores, retail stores, etc. There are no health warnings on the bottles. If you feel that it is a cancer risk, you should get in touch with the proper authorities and warn them.

I didn’t say hydrogen peroxide was a cancer risk.

Response:

"CanDo" <rasm1…@bellsouth.net

wrote in message

news:pE9jc.9861$oN1.256@bignews5.bellsouth.net…

I know that you are looking for more scientific feedback, or feedback from the medical community, but I figured I’d offer my personal experience.

Thanks for sharing your experience.  Yes, I was looking for more scientific feedback, but also for use on longer term use than 30 months.  With all the research I do, I’ve not been able to find anything substantive.

Response:

Hydrogen peroxide can’t be too awfully toxic. I used to got to an alt. med MD who also did IV chelation therapy and I saw many patients in his office do large IV drips of hydrogen peroxide solution and this wasn’t the 3% variety. I think they were doing the IVs to protect their heart. I can’t remember the specific rational because it’s been 10 years or so. I’m sure a Google search would tell you whatever their theory was behind ingesting hydrogen peroxide. I remember some of the patients also drank hydrogen peroxide. — "Dissent is the highest form of patriotism"   Thomas Jefferson "NorthShoreCEO" <NorthShore…@aol.com

wrote in message

news:Mp7jc.39999$w96.2823833@attbi_s54… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

What is the long term effect of hydrogen peroxide on tissue?  Does anyone know?

Response:

Before western culture learned of it, 3,000 years ago the Yoga did rapid in and out sniffing of saline. They did it very rapidly at a low pressure. Which, essentially is what the Hydro Pulse does . This rapid in and out did stimulate cilia and did remove dust and pollen. Try to teach this today ! good luck. Most patients this gentle low pressure means about 70 PSI which will damage the nose. Murray Grossan, M.D. http://www.ent-consult.com

Response:

"Steven Litvintchouk" <sdlit…@earthlinkNOSPAM.net

wrote in message

news:pvwic.8554$gH6.6757@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net…

spam2death wrote: I’m currently on my second round of antibiotics in this years edition of my never ending battle against chronic sinus infections. I’m sorry to hear that.  I hope that throwing more and more antibiotics at the problem isn’t the only thing your doctors are doing for you.  The most important thing your doctors should be doine for you, is trying to figure out why you keep getting recurrent sinus infections in the first place.

I’ve had horrible allergies my entire life. I currently treat them with Flonase, Astelin, Nasal Crom, Singulair and whatever else is necessary. I’ve also taken desensitization shots several times and taken enough allergy pills to fill a 55 gallon drum. Once any of my sinuses or eustachen tubes clogs securely, an infection won’t be far behind.  I don’t even remember large portions of junior high because I was so zoned out on various allergy pills or sick with repeated sinus infections. My problem with sinus infections is that I probably wait much too long before beginning antibiotics and the infections are usually well advanced. Augmentin made me have diarreha so I was only on it two days. I’m taking Tequin now. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

What did people do for chronic severe sinus infections prior to the availability

of

antibiotics? IIRC:  nasal irrigation and surgery.  Pretty much what they do now! The first diagnoses of chronic maxillary sinus infections were first made around the 17th century.  And over time, better and better surgical procedures were devised.  (The Caldwell-Luc surgical procedure, for many years the state-of-the-art in sinus surgery, was invented in the late 19th century.) In the 18th century, doctors realized that some sinus infections were caused by dental abscesses and could be helped by extractions of the upper molars.  Nasal irrigation was employed for the first time in the 18th century too. I remember seeing a couple of pictures of the elaborate mechanical apparatuses they used for nasal irrigation, before the invention of electric irrigators.  One of them was a big tank that was fastened high on the wall, way above your head.  You put the hose into your nose, turned the crank, and gravity and siphoning pulled the water down into your nose and thru your nasopharynx. — Steven L.

I use saline nasal spray 4-6 times a day. It seems to help. Having nasal surgery scares the poop out of me as a friend went into the local hospital as an outpatient to clear a minor nasal blockage and immediately came down with incurable MRSA and also strep in his sinuses. He had to have repeated major surgeries to try and cure the infection. The infections and related pain eventually cost him his job and career. I’d probably have to be fighting a malignancy before I’d risk surgery, but if I further lost my ability to breathe, I might change my mind. Thanks for the medical history lessons and suggestions.   spam2death

Response:

spam2death wrote:

I’ve had horrible allergies my entire life. I currently treat them with Flonase, Astelin, Nasal Crom, Singulair and whatever else is necessary. I’ve also taken desensitization shots several times and taken enough allergy pills to fill a 55 gallon drum. Once any of my sinuses or eustachen tubes clogs securely, an infection won’t be far behind.  I don’t even remember large portions of junior high because I was so zoned out on various allergy pills or sick with repeated sinus infections. My problem with sinus infections is that I probably wait much too long before beginning antibiotics and the infections are usually well advanced. Augmentin made me have diarreha so I was only on it two days. I’m taking Tequin now.

Have you seen an ENT?  If so, what did he say?

I use saline nasal spray 4-6 times a day. It seems to help.

You might find that irrigation works better than spray. I use the Grossan irrigator religiously.  It works better for me than any nasal spray.

Having nasal surgery scares the poop out of me as a friend went into the local hospital as an outpatient to clear a minor nasal blockage and immediately came down with incurable MRSA and also strep in his sinuses.

Hmm, this is a new one for me. What the heck is "incurable MRSA?" Was this one of those brand-new strains of MRSA that’s even resistant to vancomycin? Not all hospitals are as careless as the one you describe.  Many of us have had sinus surgery and we didn’t get MRSA.  But we didn’t go to just any surgeon and just any hospital.  We chose carefully. — Steven L.

Response:

"NorthShoreCEO" wrote: "What is the long term effect of hydrogen peroxide on

tissue?  Does anyone know?" <================================

I’ve flooding my sinuses with a mixture of Hydrogen peroxide, baking soda and kosher salt for about 30 months, an average of less than twice a month. Total flooding time averages about 15 minutes. After decades of sinus misery, my sinuses have never been better. I’ve also use electro-acupuncture to treat my sinuses, and watch my diet, and I have made changes to my environment, so I can’t attribute my good sinus health to just the flooding. So far, I have not had any bad effects from the contact of the peroxide with my sinuses. I know that you are looking for more scientific feedback, or feedback from the medical community, but I figured I’d offer my personal experience. ===

"Hydrogen peroxide is water with extra oxygen attached. The formula for

water is H2O, and for hydrogen peroxide is H2O2. Another name for hydrogen peroxide would be hydrogen dioxide." <===

Response:

What is the long term effect of hydrogen peroxide on tissue?  Does anyone know?

Response:

"spam2death" wrote: After reading your post on the allergy group a while

back I tried adding a couple ml of hydrogen peroxide to a half bottle of Ocean salt water spray. This worked fine and seemed to really help. However after I ran out of this bottle and mixed up a batch myself, I either added too much hydrogen peroxide or my sinus infection was already well established as the second bottle seemed to irritate my already inflamed sinuses. I’ll try again with a weaker formulation after my sinuses heal.  Thanks for the suggestions." << <=============================

When I’ve used too much peroxide, it has caused my sinuses to swell shut for about three straight days. I am careful not to use more than one part peroxide to 10 parts water. Even that much used to sting my sinuses, but not any more. If the powerful anti-infective mixture of peroxide, baking soda and kosher salt can get to the source of infection, or infected material, then it can fight the infection and help to prevent recurring infections. If it can’t get to the source of the infection, then the benefits are limited. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

— "Dissent is the highest form of patriotism"   Thomas Jefferson "CanDo" <rasm1…@bellsouth.net wrote in message news:rcwic.2918$7a5.2178@bignews6.bellsouth.net… After suffering with multiple sinus infections, year after year, for decades, I experimented with flooding my sinuses with a mixture of

diluted

3% hydrogen peroxide, baking soda and kosher salt. I kept my forehead

down

for quite a while, hoping that the anti-infective mixture could get to

the

infected area(s) within my sinuses and nasal passages.  . It worked! I have been sinus infection free for about 30 months.  . I have fully documented my experience and how I did it at

Healthboards.com.

There are posts over there by people who have tried my "upside down

sinus

flooding", and by who don’t think that it is a good idea. I have no connection at all with Healthboards. I consider it to be the best

facility

for discussing  health problems on the Internet.  . To find out more, select one of the following links:  . Here is the link to a discussion about the "Upside Down Sinus Flooding": . http://www.healthboards.com/boards/showthread.php?t=129210  . Here is the link to the detailed documentation of the "Upside Down Sinus Flooding" and also some discussion:  . http://www.healthboards.com/boards/showthread.php?t=139765

Response:

I’m currently on my second round of antibiotics in this years edition of my never ending battle against chronic sinus infections. What did people do for chronic severe sinus infections prior to the availability of antibiotics? Anyone have a brief explanation of archaic treatments used for sinus infections used in the years before antibiotics? Any medical historians in the group? thanks,    congested to death but still curious — "Dissent is the highest form of patriotism"   Thomas Jefferson

Response:

After suffering with multiple sinus infections, year after year, for decades, I experimented with flooding my sinuses with a mixture of diluted 3% hydrogen peroxide, baking soda and kosher salt. I kept my forehead down for quite a while, hoping that the anti-infective mixture could get to the infected area(s) within my sinuses and nasal passages.  . It worked! I have been sinus infection free for about 30 months.  . I have fully documented my experience and how I did it at Healthboards.com. There are posts over there by people who have tried my "upside down sinus flooding", and by who don’t think that it is a good idea. I have no connection at all with Healthboards. I consider it to be the best facility for discussing  health problems on the Internet.  . To find out more, select one of the following links:  . Here is the link to a discussion about the "Upside Down Sinus Flooding": . http://www.healthboards.com/boards/showthread.php?t=129210  . Here is the link to the detailed documentation of the "Upside Down Sinus Flooding" and also some discussion:  . http://www.healthboards.com/boards/showthread.php?t=139765

Response:

spam2death wrote:

I’m currently on my second round of antibiotics in this years edition of my never ending battle against chronic sinus infections.

I’m sorry to hear that.  I hope that throwing more and more antibiotics at the problem isn’t the only thing your doctors are doing for you.  The most important thing your doctors should be doine for you, is trying to figure out why you keep getting recurrent sinus infections in the first place.

What did people do for chronic severe sinus infections prior to the availability of antibiotics?

IIRC:  nasal irrigation and surgery.  Pretty much what they do now! The first diagnoses of chronic maxillary sinus infections were first made around the 17th century.  And over time, better and better surgical procedures were devised.  (The Caldwell-Luc surgical procedure, for many years the state-of-the-art in sinus surgery, was invented in the late 19th century.) In the 18th century, doctors realized that some sinus infections were caused by dental abscesses and could be helped by extractions of the upper molars.  Nasal irrigation was employed for the first time in the 18th century too. I remember seeing a couple of pictures of the elaborate mechanical apparatuses they used for nasal irrigation, before the invention of electric irrigators.  One of them was a big tank that was fastened high on the wall, way above your head.  You put the hose into your nose, turned the crank, and gravity and siphoning pulled the water down into your nose and thru your nasopharynx. — Steven L.

Response:

Question:

On 17 Jan 2004 20:01:09 -0800, goyg…@aol.com (goygirl) wrote:

Today my NP called me and told me that the CT was abnormal and that I have either nasal polyps and or cysts (3) and she is referring me to an ENT specialist. Today was the happiest and most hopeful day I have had in my life!!!! She is dubious about this being the casuse of all my suffering but I am not.  This must be the answer, please let it be. I have read alot in the last 12 hours and I believe this must be it.  I cannot go on like this much longer and I have been a terrible father and husband for a long time now, Finally, my question fot the group.  Now what???  Should I just go with whatever course of action this unknown Dr. suggests??

*If* they recommend surgery, I would not go right away with a randomly-chosen surgeon. Because surgery is a major thing, and can *occasionally* go wrong, and is a bit of an art, I would first see also other sinus surgeons, including one or two at a major University medical center, preferably including a conservative one such as Mayo.   You can easily do this under the guise of getting "second opinions." Find them yourself though, not via asking your current doctors for names. Then, *if* you still want surgery, go with the most experienced one.  They will all be glad to see you becasue sinus surgery is *big dollars*. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

I am really desperate for some relief (I even posted on the net for the first time)  I dont want to be anything less than aggresive with this problem which has caused me to suffer for so long.

Response:

Have you read about the "upside down sinus flooding" with peroxide/ baking soda and kosher salt for dealing with sinus disease? If you want to follow along with other sinus sufferers who are finding some relief using it, and read the documentation check out the forum at Healthboards at: http://www.healthboards.com/boards/showthread.php?t=129210 The shortness of breath after going to bed is not normally considered a "sinus condition". I get it. I let a sinus infection go too long without treatment, and it caused me to become over sensitive to things that I was only slightly allergic to before, like cotton. When I lie in bed, my heart get irritated and starts to palpitate, and I’ll get shortness of breath. If I lie on my leather recliner without sheets or blankets, my heart remains stable. ===

Larry, you wrote: "My symptoms were as follows

 1. headache over my eyes from about 2-4 hours after awakening lasting the entire day and night  2. shortness of breath (this just started recently) only in the evening until  sleep  3.  dizziness, slight nausea  4.  facial pain (I have only recently learned to distinguish this from a headache)<===

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -goygirl wrote:

I need help and advice with a very serious problem.  For about 28 months now, I have had moderate to severe headaches and facial pain. I believed that this stemmed from an unsatisfactory lasik procedure and two dissapointing enhancements that followed shortly thereafter.  I encountered boursts of severe pain in the eye in question as well, so I naturally assumed that this was the cause.  I saw 3 lasik specialists and they could find nothing that would cause this pain.  I was angry and depressed.  I have been healthy my whole life and now this pain, every day, and it seemed I had chosen it.  About six to eight months ago, the eye pain stopped, but the headaches and the facial pain persisted. I found that no OTC pain med helped me but percocet taken in small doses did take away most of the pain.  OK, if noone could help me, I would address the issue with medication.  I was concerned with becoming addicted to the drug, but not concerned enough to stop, the pain was too much. I had a brain MRI and went to a couple of doctors but nothing.  

Who ordered the MRI?  What type of doctors did you see?  Did you ever see a qualified neurologist? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

I was becoming more and more depressed and taking it out on my wife and kid.  I decided to rededicate myself to finding out what was wrong. Finally, a nurse practicioner at my Drs office suggested I have a CT of my sinus last week and I did.  I was  not very hopeful because I didnt seem to have any nasal congestion and almost never get a cold or the flu but what the heck. My symptoms were as follows 1. headache over my eyes from about 2-4 hours after awakening lasting the    entire day and night 2. shortness of breath (this just started recently) only in the evening  until  sleep 3.  dizziness, sligh nausea 4.  facial pain (I have only recently learned to distinguish this from a      headache) Today my NP called me and told me that the CT was abnormal and that I have either nasal polyps and or cysts (3) and she is referring me to an ENT specialist. Today was the happiest and most hopeful day I have had in my life!!!! She is dubious about this being the casuse of all my suffering but I am not.  

I don’t want to make you feel bad, but I have to say that I am not sure it’s the cause either. I don’t know anything about lasik, but I don’t understand how it could have triggered chronic sinusitis, unless you had developed some kind of post-operative eye infection and your surgeons should have been able to detect that.  The cysts and polyps could be coincidental.  Some folks have polyps for years with no symptoms. I even searched the Internet for you, to find any possible connection between sinus problems and Lasik.  I haven’t found anything.

This must be the answer, please let it be. I have read alot in the last 12 hours and I believe this must be it.  I cannot go on like this much longer and I have been a terrible father and husband for a long time now, Finally, my question fot the group.  Now what???  Should I just go with whatever course of action this unknown Dr. suggests??  

You should never do that for any course of action by any unknown doctor. Explain to this ENT all about your lasik surgery and when the problems started.  After this ENT has seen your CT scan films and told you what he thinks (is it sinusitis or a complication of lasik), start researching the ENTs in your area and find a good one, and get a second opinion from him. If you haven’t seen a neurologist yet, you should see one, and show him your MRI films. — Steven L.

Response:

On 23 Jan 2004 11:35:31 -0800, goyg…@aol.com (goygirl) wrote:

p.s.  I dont hink this is a neck problem

Why not?

Response:

I need help and advice with a very serious problem.  For about 28 months now, I have had moderate to severe headaches and facial pain. I believed that this stemmed from an unsatisfactory lasik procedure and two dissapointing enhancements that followed shortly thereafter.  I encountered boursts of severe pain in the eye in question as well, so I naturally assumed that this was the cause.  I saw 3 lasik specialists and they could find nothing that would cause this pain.  I was angry and depressed.  I have been healthy my whole life and now this pain, every day, and it seemed I had chosen it.  About six to eight months ago, the eye pain stopped, but the headaches and the facial pain persisted. I found that no OTC pain med helped me but percocet taken in small doses did take away most of the pain.  OK, if noone could help me, I would address the issue with medication.  I was concerned with becoming addicted to the drug, but not concerned enough to stop, the pain was too much. I had a brain MRI and went to a couple of doctors but nothing.  I was becoming more and more depressed and taking it out on my wife and kid.  I decided to rededicate myself to finding out what was wrong. Finally, a nurse practicioner at my Drs office suggested I have a CT of my sinus last week and I did.  I was  not very hopeful because I didnt seem to have any nasal congestion and almost never get a cold or the flu but what the heck. My symptoms were as follows 1. headache over my eyes from about 2-4 hours after awakening lasting the    entire day and night 2. shortness of breath (this just started recently) only in the evening  until  sleep 3.  dizziness, sligh nausea 4.  facial pain (I have only recently learned to distinguish this from a      headache) Today my NP called me and told me that the CT was abnormal and that I have either nasal polyps and or cysts (3) and she is referring me to an ENT specialist. Today was the happiest and most hopeful day I have had in my life!!!! She is dubious about this being the casuse of all my suffering but I am not.  This must be the answer, please let it be. I have read alot in the last 12 hours and I believe this must be it.  I cannot go on like this much longer and I have been a terrible father and husband for a long time now, Finally, my question fot the group.  Now what???  Should I just go with whatever course of action this unknown Dr. suggests??  I am really desperate for some relief (I even posted on the net for the first time)  I dont want to be anything less than aggresive with this problem which has caused me to suffer for so long. Any advice and wisdom from those with knowlede is very much appreciated Thanks, Larry

Response:

He didn’t say if he ever saw a neurologist.  I would think that’s at least as important as seeing an ENT. — Steven L. as usual Steve is right again. Steve, did you learn from me or is it vice versa? The headaches he is describing can be cervical. The first division of the trigeminal nerve is affected by cervical stimuli and is felt as a V1 pain. Murray Grossan, M.D. http://www.ent-consult.com

Response:

entcons…@aol.comnospam (ENTconsult) wrote in message <news:20040119011638.22671.00000255@mb-m18.aol.com

… The symptoms you describe are often due to neck problems. Cysts of the sinuses do  not give this type of pain. I have seen patients with this history cured by getting their auto seat adjusted, or getting rid of the glare when they type. I would recommend referral to a licensed physical therapist. Murray Grossan, M.D. http://www.ent-consult.com

just a quick follow -up for those who took the time to read my post. Went to the allergist 4 days ago, after much advice, prior to my ent. Tested for alleraies as well as a breathing test.  Not much difference before and after the med with the breathing test and was positive for many allergies.  Follow-up appt next week for results. ENT yesterday in Phoenix, finally I may get some answers on this facial pain.  Gave him my history before he read my CT, tried not to leave anything out.  Then he started reading me the results of my CT which I already knew.  I asked him if he had read the CT and he said NO, only the report from the drs at the imaging center where it was taken.  I explained that I had waited 2 weeks to see him so he could read the CT and I was dissapointed.  He said he would order it by courier and call me when he had read it in a couple of days.  Very dissapointing.  I told him I would go get it and bring it within the hour and he said fine. Anyway when he read it, he said my sinuses looked fairly healthy and he seriously doubted that my facial pain could come from the one polyp on the right side.  He gave me some Astelin and Singulair and sent me on my way.  Told me to handle it with the allergist, that was where the problem probably lies.  I was very dissapointed that there was not something he could spot on the CT.  Im back to square one with no help from the astelin in 3 doses but will continue Any suggestions?? p.s.  I dont hink this is a neck problem Larry

Response:

All your syptoms I have. I had the CT and it was sinus problems. My ENT put a tiny scope (camera) inside my nose. I have large polyps, The Ct showed a crooked septum and he said my turbinates are large. I seen another ENT for a secound opinion. He said the same thing. He used a nose spreader and a magnifier and said and showed a large polyp and bad irratation. I said I have a CT in my car and should I bring it in for him to look at. He laughed and said he never has a problem being the 2nd opinion Doctor. He looked at it and showed me each area one at a time taking plenty of time. He said it was in the severe class. Left maxillart and tube is completely blocked right side is 1/2. upper somewhat.  ect. The pain gets very bad. So now its time to have it done. Get 2 Doctors and ask other people. Ask If the Doctor has done at least 200-300 sinus operations. using FESS. Well good luck

Response:

On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 15:53:40 GMT, Steven Litvintchouk <sdlit…@earthlinkNOSPAM.net

wrote: Before he goes down this track too far: Have you ever heard of any scenario in which Lasik eye surgery could possibly cause chronic sinusitis?  The only thing I can think of would be a post-op eye infection, and his surgeons should have spotted that easily.

I could not find anything searching the Internet.

He didn’t say if he ever saw a neurologist.  I would think that’s at least as important as seeing an ENT.

I agree. Since he has a complicated problem, if he does not find a likely cause he might consider going to Mayo, which has excellent cross-disciplinary diagnostic approaches, and does not easily give up on a problem until they find the cause. Far too many other providers just rule out one cause at a time, without enough consultation across specialties.

Response:

Don and Steve Yes I did get an MRI by a qualified neurologist and he saw nothing.  I might add that I did recieve Punctal Plugs to help with the Dry Eye I experienced.  Any chance that may be the problem?  They worked wonders for my Dry Eye but I hate to think they were tthe cause of all this pain.  I aked my optomotrist friend if there is any possible connection and he said no. Larry

Response:

On 18 Jan 2004 13:13:36 -0800, goyg…@aol.com (goygirl) wrote:

Don and Steve Yes I did get an MRI by a qualified neurologist and he saw nothing.  I might add that I did recieve Punctal Plugs to help with the Dry Eye I experienced.  Any chance that may be the problem?  They worked wonders for my Dry Eye but I hate to think they were tthe cause of all this pain.  I aked my optomotrist friend if there is any possible connection and he said no.

Dry Eyes are a common complication of Lasik.  They may be asssociated with pain.    But one would expect the punctal plugs to help with that, not make it worse.  They are very commonly used. I would see what some sinus experts think of the CT scan before anything else….. Pain *above* the eyes could correspond to the ethmoid or possibly frontal sinsuses..   Is that where the polyps are or are the in the maxillary (cheek) sinuses?  Really you will know better after seeing the sinus specialist…..

Response:

The symptoms you describe are often due to neck problems. Cysts of the sinuses do  not give this type of pain. I have seen patients with this history cured by getting their auto seat adjusted, or getting rid of the glare when they type. I would recommend referral to a licensed physical therapist. Murray Grossan, M.D. http://www.ent-consult.com

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Don Brady wrote:

On 17 Jan 2004 20:01:09 -0800, goyg…@aol.com (goygirl) wrote: Today my NP called me and told me that the CT was abnormal and that I have either nasal polyps and or cysts (3) and she is referring me to an ENT specialist. Today was the happiest and most hopeful day I have had in my life!!!! She is dubious about this being the casuse of all my suffering but I am not.  This must be the answer, please let it be. I have read alot in the last 12 hours and I believe this must be it.  I cannot go on like this much longer and I have been a terrible father and husband for a long time now, Finally, my question fot the group.  Now what???  Should I just go with whatever course of action this unknown Dr. suggests?? *If* they recommend surgery, I would not go right away with a randomly-chosen surgeon. Because surgery is a major thing, and can *occasionally* go wrong, and is a bit of an art, I would first see also other sinus surgeons, including one or two at a major University medical center, preferably including a conservative one such as Mayo.  

Before he goes down this track too far: Have you ever heard of any scenario in which Lasik eye surgery could possibly cause chronic sinusitis?  The only thing I can think of would be a post-op eye infection, and his surgeons should have spotted that easily. He didn’t say if he ever saw a neurologist.  I would think that’s at least as important as seeing an ENT. — Steven L.

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Question:

Oh you poor soul.  No one should have the daily pain that you have.  Does your doctor ever tell you about anti- seizure drugs like Neurontin, etc.?  I was having daily headaches (always started at 5:00 p.m.).  I am also bipolar and when my psychiatrist prescribed Neurontin and ramped me up to 800 mg four times a day, the headaches mysteriously went away.  They started getting less painful until one day I noticed, they were just gone.  I do have the beginning of migraines about once a month, or when I get blasted by loud noise or bright flickering lights, but with the Neurontin, a Bellamine-S and Esgic Plus pretty much nip it in the bud. Neurontin carries very few side effects, maybe you will sleep a lot better, and the few it does have. your body gets used to. I told my doctor once, "We who have migraines–if you would offer us a million dollars or to never have another headache, we would take the never have another headache."  His face showed that he finally understood our plight. I sincerely hope you can find something that works for you.  BTW, the Neurontin is good for nerve pain other places, too.  You poor thing.  You don’t deserve this. Val in Boise

Response:

Chuck,     I am  in the same situation I have had nonstop pain in my head too I’m on my 9th year of this.I am 30, and when I had my 3rd{last} child afterward I just started having pain that was sheer h*!!. It just kept intensifying,.I am usually  pretty nauseas for a lot of the time. I am taking Phenerghan for it. I am so sensitive to many medications. Ones that don’t work,or makeme worse  etc. . I have pain through my whole body. I have Fibromyalgia, Where you hurt at the pressure points located throughout your body. I have Neuropathy as well which is like going around droppingthings, or mylegs just give out, when walking.  I alsohave Rheaumatoid  Arthritis I can tell whenwe are going toget bad weather. Because ofmy body hurting so bad.  You mightbeable to doa google search and type in  diferent words, ya know like Chronic Pain.. Here  is a link if you’re interested inchecking it out. Its not only for people suffering, but for the ones that see them and feel bad about it. Their’ friend or family member or anyone else. It is a wonderful support group. http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/chronicpainstories/   I hope that things start getting better for everyone!!!  Ican’t wait till we get warm weather again.  We are getting ready tobuild an edition on to our trailer. When we get done it will look just like an average house. Wegot some footers dug a little. I am notgoing to be able todo too much, because ofbeing disabled. I’m under drs.orders to not drive. That sucks. I get auras where everything gets pitch black or blinding excruciating bright white. Imostly wear  sunglasses. So depressed. But hey I’m dealing withit. Starting to stand up , take action. For ourrights,For  the DEA to quit sticking their noses where they don’t belong. It is all of ourdutyto speak up. They are trying totake pain medicine away from everyone suffering to the point of needing toget treated by drs. Take care Chuck, and everyone else reading this. A friend of mine has had an intense headache for the last 3 years – it varies in intensity, but on a scale from 1 – 10 he’s averaging a 7. It started suddenly and never stops. He often has attacks (3 or 4 a week) where the headache quickly get worse, and he passes out from the pain and is totally unresponsive. Before this happens, he usually complains that his arm hurts. He’s gone to tonnes of doctors – neurologists, dieticians, psychiatrists, accupuncture, tried diets to eliminate food groups and allergens, had MRI’s and cat scans and spinal taps. Tried all sorts of drugs –  morphine and other pain killers, anti-siezure, etc. Nothing has helped and no one has any idea what’s going on. He’s healthy otherwise and very rarely had headaches before this one. Anyone have any similar experiences, or helpful suggestions? Chuck A friend of mine has had an intense headache for the last 3 years – it varies in intensity, but on a scale from 1 – 10 he’s averaging a 7. It started suddenly and never stops. He often has attacks (3 or 4 a week) where the headache quickly get worse, and he passes out from the pain and is totally unresponsive. Before this happens, he usually complains that his arm hurts. He’s gone to tonnes of doctors – neurologists, dieticians, psychiatrists, accupuncture, tried diets to eliminate food groups and allergens, had MRI’s and cat scans and spinal taps. Tried all sorts of drugs –  morphine and other pain killers, anti-siezure, etc. Nothing has helped and no one has any idea what’s going on. He’s healthy otherwise and very rarely had headaches before this one. Anyone have any similar experiences, or helpful suggestions? Chuck A friend of mine has had an intense headache for the last 3 years – it varies in intensity, but on a scale from 1 – 10 he’s averaging a 7. It started suddenly and never stops. He often has attacks (3 or 4 a week) where the headache quickly get worse, and he passes out from the pain and is totally unresponsive. Before this happens, he usually complains that his arm hurts. He’s gone to tonnes of doctors – neurologists, dieticians, psychiatrists, accupuncture, tried diets to eliminate food groups and allergens, had MRI’s and cat scans and spinal taps. Tried all sorts of drugs –  morphine and other pain killers, anti-siezure, etc. Nothing has helped and no one has any idea what’s going on. He’s healthy otherwise and very rarely had headaches before this one. Anyone have any similar experiences, or helpful suggestions?

Response:

Neurontin carries very few side effects, maybe you will sleep a lot better, and the few it does have. your body gets used to.

Hi Val, I too have fibromyalgia and at one point my doc prescribed neurontin, it seems to be the drug of choice for prevention and control of fms symptoms. However, recently there were 2 class action lawsuit against the manufacturers of Neurontin.  It seems that one of the side effects of this drug is suicidal (or homicidal depending on your state of mind I guess) tendencies.  since one of the problems of fms is major clinical depression it is something that shouldn’t be taken lightly.  I’d talk to your doc about weighing the benefits. The second lawsuit has to do with the fact that 80% of the neurontin prescriptions were for conditions that the drug was not approved for.  I’m including a statement here about that.  You can also do a search for neurontin lawsuit and read a little more about it. Hate to be the bearer of bad news Good Luck, Karen Neurontin lawsuit Neurontin – Neurontin was approved for sale in the mid-1990s as a treatment for epileptic seizures. However it is believed that approximately 80 percent of all Neurontin prescriptions were filled for unapproved medical conditions. Neurontin is also believed to be linked to suicidal behavior. It is believed that Parke-Davis which was acquired by Pfizer in 2000 had a systematic strategy to market and promote Neurontin for untested uses, such as chronic pain, bipolar disorder and migraine. It is not illegal for a doctor to prescribe a drug for unapproved conditions, however it is illegal for a drug company to market a medication for unapproved uses. In July 2003, Dateline broadcasted an investigation which accused Parke-Davis of deliberately falsifying medical information about Neurontin so doctors would prescribe the drug to treat "off-label" conditions. State and Federal prosecutors have launched investigations into the allegedly illegal marketing of Neurontin. In its year-long investigation, Dateline interviewed a former Parke-Davis scientist who alleges company officials encouraged him to persuade physicians to prescribe Neurontin for a number of disorders, including attention deficit disorder and bipolar disease, even though there was minimal preliminary data indicating that Neurontin could help patients with those diseases. In May 2003, The US attorney’s office in Boston said in court documents that the drug company Parke-Davis, now Pfizer, gave illegal kickbacks to doctors, including trips to Puerto Rico and tickets to the 1996 Summer Olympics, to prescribe what has become the nation’s best-selling anticonvulsant, Neurontin. Below is a list of the unapproved conditions that Neurontin was marketed to treat: The 11 illegally promoted unapproved uses for Neurontin are: *Bipolar Disorder *Pain Syndromes, Peripheral Neuropathy, and Diabetic Neuropathy *Treatment of Epilepsy alone (as monotherapy) *Reflex Sympathetic Dystrophy (RSD) *Attention Deficit Disorder (ADD) *Restless Leg Syndrome (RLS) *Trigeminal Neuralgia *Post-Hepatic Neuralgia (PHN) *Essential Tremor Periodic Limb Movement *Migraine *Drug and Alcohol Withdrawal Seizures

Response:

UnfortunatelyVal,   I   am  already on it. I take 1800 mgs. aday,, No help from it.  Thanks though. I’m gladto hearthat they help you  some. Take Care, migraine momma – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Oh you poor soul.  No one should have the daily pain that you have.  Does your doctor ever tell you about anti- seizure drugs like Neurontin, etc.?  I was having daily headaches (always started at 5:00 p.m.).  I am also bipolar and when my psychiatrist prescribed Neurontin and ramped me up to 800 mg four times a day, the headaches mysteriously went away.  They started getting less painful until one day I noticed, they were just gone.  I do have the beginning of migraines about once a month, or when I get blasted by loud noise or bright flickering lights, but with the Neurontin, a Bellamine-S and Esgic Plus pretty much nip it in the bud. Neurontin carries very few side effects, maybe you will sleep a lot better, and the few it does have. your body gets used to. I told my doctor once, "We who have migraines–if you would offer us a million dollars or to never have another headache, we would take the never have another headache."  His face showed that he finally understood our plight. I sincerely hope you can find something that works for you.  BTW, the Neurontin is good for nerve pain other places, too.  You poor thing.  You don’t deserve this. Val in Boise

Response:

Question:

As mentioned before, Creation and evolution go hand in hand. Do you mean the word creation …. well maybe. If you mean biblical creation – nonsense! Biblical Creation and evolution can go hand in hand by a scientific stand point to tie up the "theory of evolutions" loose ends that scientists cannot explain.  All one has to do is to use all knowledge of mankind at his disposal, without throwing out a vast amount of it, dismissing it as fairy tales and fallasies.

Creationism and ToE can go hand in hand, but wont be accepted by any one with a scientific mind. You don’t supply answers for the holes. YOU SEARCH FOR THE TRUTH not what makes you feel complete. Scientists are comfortable with the holes, more to work on. Scientists aren’t comfortable with half- assed answeres to questions with realy truth behind them. One cannot be truthfully explained without the other. Science has done quite well explaing things without needing (or finiding evidence for) a god! Science is as baffled at this Creation and evolution thing today as it was a hundred years ago.  Many scientists, who are Christian, are turning to the Bible for answers to loose ends in the "theory of evolution".

Because those "scientists" are cowards — can’t accept reality (that we are still ignorant). Not having answers to all of the questions does not make creationism true. It means more must be discovered, not fabricated. If it were so, then one or the other would have overtaken the world with little or know question whatsoever. Bull shit! Science has answers — plenty of them. Science has many loose ends that cannot be explained without God or the Biblical history.

Can not be explained by ignorant fearfull theists who *need* god inorder to live a good life. Science does not have ALL the answers, and never will.

Does that make god or you religion true? NO!!!!!!! Because it dismisses too many facts leaving a lot of unanswered questions and loose ends that cannot be explained any other way except with God.

How did earth form? — god. How did Columbus find the americas? — god. How does my computer work? — god. How did I find my keys this morning? — god. Just because I may not know how my computer works, the earth formed, or how I found my keys doesn’t mean that god did it. It means that I am not knowledgable or rational enough to conclude an intelligent answer. And the same goes for humanity in general. We can’t explain everythign (as you pointed out many times) and the reason is because we are still too ignorant and have not found the answers, not that god is responsible. Science is STILL based in reality, facts and evidence; creationism is still based in fables and fairy tales. With a mentality like this, it is a wonder you made it out of Kindergarten.

Rather than ridculing, point out where his logic is wrong. And, by the way, his logic is not wrong. Creationsim has no evidence, it has NEVER been witnessed anywhere, ever. It has less credibility than evolution. (here is the point where you respond with one of your pointless pseudo- insults rather than addressing the issue)

Response:

Why, my friend, are you waiting for your next athesistic laugh?  You appear to live and devote your entire life to making jokes, so I would guess that you are.

Don’t try to make judgments about someone’s "entire life" based on a few USENET posts.  It makes you look ridiculous. Jon

Response:

You obviously don’t understand human nature very well. I understand human nature better than YOU will ever know.

How do you know? I might have a degree in sociology or philosophy. Maybe I have been to dozens of countrys or studied anthropolgy under eminent professors and philosophers. You don’t know so don’t assume that I can’t know as much, or more, about human nature than you do. (*christian arrogance* : I know best) Evolution is a fact of reality for life, planetary formation, and the development of the universe. The "theory of evolution", which it still is, is still chopped up with many holes like swiss cheese, and remains to have too many unanswered questions in it.

I didn’t use evolution in the context of human evolution. I used it to represent the process of change. There is a process to the formation of planets, solar systems, minerals and life. You can’t disagree that formation has a process can you? Evolution is merely change, thats all. And I already have a clue from what you have written that you are not very familiar with scientific procedures. A theory, as it is used in the SCIENTIFIC sense is a formula or construct that has successfuly stood up to all tests, but has not found the single piece of proof that makes it a law. Simliar to proving a mathematical formula. Some formulas can describe a set of numbers from x to any number you care to crunch. But since numbers go to infity you cant say that since the fromula works for the first billion numbers it must work for all. Same with evolution. Everything that we can test it with, genetics, diseases, speciation, etc.. it stands up to it. But since no one was around 100million years ago we can’t say for certain evolution worked the same way then. We can say though that from this poitn on evolution seems to work. I have studied evolution for a few years now, under intellgient professors, and all of these holes you speak of are not realy there. These holes are only visible to ignorant uneducated people. Once you have studied evolution you not just find it to be logical but rather mundane in its process. (I am not implying that you are uneducated or ignorant in these matters and I really don’t care.) If evolution was accepted by everyone then creationism will become a fairy tale. Creation will never become a fairy tale to anyone except the atheists who seek to destroy humanity at all costs.

Creationism will become a fairy tale once people stop believing in it. Just as Zeus, Ra and all of those old world gods have become. Once there is no one to believe in somethign it no longer exists. And on my weekends I, sit in a dark room clutching a glass of brandy planing world domination… give me a break man. Atheists aren’t trying to destroy humanity, every religion, every culture has individuals who cause negative repricussion on society. If you really wish to single out atheists as if EVER ONE OF THEM wanted to take away your freedoms and destroy your culture then give me a half an hour and I will be able to pull up a hundred sources saying the same about any religion. I recomend we do not go down this path of blame.. it never gets us anywhere. Our spontaneous creation by god is the fundamental cornerstone of christianity and many other religions. If we no longer were intentionally created, but instead evolved from other life forms, religions would completely loose any foundation it may have. This is why there is such resistance to evolution, not that it requires creationsim, but people are too scared to be wrong. Another reply that is wrought with loopholes and falasies using methods that still have work to be done to prove the atheist theory that the "theory of evolution" is the key to the beginnings of the human race.

Please point out my loopholes in the previous paragraph. I will break it down for you to make it simpler. 1. Creationsim is a foundation of Christianity (True / False)? 2. Evolution says creationsim is b.s. and we evolved from simpler life             forms (True / False)? 3. IF EVOLUTION IS TRUE then we are no longer spontaneously created by god.             (True / False)? 4. If our existence is nothing more than chance, then we have no more             purpose than any other creature (True / False)? 5. If we are no longer special then christianity will loose its strongest             cornerstone (True / False)? You still haven’t proven a thing.

I never had any intention to prove anything. Do you?

Response:

You obviously don’t understand human nature very well. I understand human nature better than YOU will ever know.  I have lived it as well as studied the human mind from the best perspective that one can study anything.  So believe what you will, it is your right in a free society.

Huh.  What exactly is the best perspective that one can study anything? It seems to me that someone convinced that their perspective is "best" probably doesn’t have much interest in perspective at all. Evolution is a fact of reality for life, planetary formation, and the development of the universe. The "theory of evolution", which it still is, is still chopped up with many holes like swiss cheese, and remains to have too many unanswered questions in it.

Therein lies its beauty. For some reason, people are attracted to neat little answers that can be expressed in sound bites.  But if an answer is too easy, it’s probably not true. The theory of evolution doesn’t boil down to a sound bite.  It’s an ongoing, fluid attempt to answer questions about the origin of different species on Earth. These issues are not simple. Ancient Greeks believed lightning could be explained in a sound bite: "Zeus is throwing bolts from the sky."  It turned out that lightning was the result of incredibly complex electrical dynamics between the earth and suspended clouds of water vapor, which I am at a loss to explain fully. Research into this matter continues today: the Japanese have built a supercomputer the likes of which has never been seen, dedicated to running large-scale weather and geological simulations. In the middle ages, another prevailing belief was also a sound bite: "The heavens rotate around the earth."  No dice.  Galileo observed that orbits did not follow this pattern.  Kepler attempted to devise a system of mathematics to describe planetary motion.  It was on the right track, but wrong.  Newton attempted further explanation, which proved insightful but incomplete.  Einstein’s theories of general relativity, years after his death, proved useful in explaining certain orbital anomalies.  Research into orbits and gravitation continues today: NASA is engaged in a study of gravitational libration points – often-unstable areas where gravitational forces cancel each other out and leave a net sum of zero. I am unwilling to believe that the sound bite: "God created all the animals and humans as they are" could have any more validity than those.  The origin of life, and the origin of species, are incredibly complex issues, which deserve our full attention and study. Attempts to reduce evolution to a sound bite, like "Species evolve through natural selection" or "Man descended from monkeys", mistakenly render it as ridiculous as any other sound bite.  That’s not what evolution is about. Evolution is about inductive research: gather evidence, form theories, test those theories.  It is an ongoing, incomplete process. If evolution was accepted by everyone then creationism will become a fairy tale. Creation will never become a fairy tale to anyone except the atheists who seek to destroy humanity at all costs.

That’s not really a fair statement: those atheists I know are dedicated to preserving humanity at all costs.  Some creationists, on the other hand, are eagerly anticipating the end of the world. Our spontaneous creation by god is the fundamental cornerstone of christianity and many other religions. If we no longer were intentionally created, but instead evolved from other life forms, religions would completely loose any foundation it may have. This is why there is such resistance to evolution, not that it requires creationsim, but people are too scared to be wrong. Another reply that is wrought with loopholes and falasies using methods that still have work to be done to prove the atheist theory that the "theory of evolution" is the key to the beginnings of the human race. You still haven’t proven a thing.

I think, in life, you will find that it’s nearly impossible to prove anything at all. But that doesn’t give us carte blanche to write our own stories and ignore the world around us. Jon

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I found the following a long time ago and could not help but read it again to better understand why God exists.  After looking at the world around me, it is obvious because man needs all the help he can get to not blow up the world for his own pleasur like a little child with a temper tantrum.  And going out on our own away from God, that is exactly what we have become; little children with a bad temper and a lust for all the possessions we can get.  Well, happy reading and I hope this helps someone out there find a new understanding of who Jesus is and why God does exists. … When will you publish your next paper, Doctor Freud? Why, my friend, are you waiting for your next athesistic laugh?  You appear to live and devote your entire life to making jokes, so I would guess that you are.

He’s got to do something during this LONG wait for one of you creationist assholes to present ANY valid evidence to support your claims!

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you’re looking for proof that God exists in the Bible, forget it! If you search for a thing from the wrong POINT OF VIEW, you will never prove a thing.  Try a different approach.  This philosophy goes along with anything in life, and not limited to religious nature.  I will let your intelligent and scientific mind find that approach for yourself.  It is the only fair thing to do in order to keep you from feeling utterly USELESS.  God is truly beyond our human comprehension, and to box in, narrowly define and limit God to a book is totally asinine. Man, in all of his infinite wisdom, has already tried to place God in a box, with little success, I might add to the point of limiting him in almost every aspect of human life.  God is still in control of this world, whether we care to believe or not. Let me picture it this way for you.  If Jesus had come off of the cross at Calvary by divine power, what would the world be doing today?

            Getting beaten like DOGS by Him….. Paul – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  Ponder over this question for a while and get back with me.  Emails welcome, and are subject to use by me in whatever way that I see fit. Deletion is possible. So – since you cannot prove god exists, there is no valid reason to assume god exists! So, my friend, have you proven that God doesn’t exist?  That is the other question I pose tonight.  You have yet to do so in any form whatsoever, except to argue over trivial things because you appear to enjoy it. Oh, by the way, God is only unprovable to those who cannot, or will not believe. Shalom, Bill But the Bible is God’s Word for us to live by. You haven’t proven god exists – so any claims about the bible are meaningless! You have not proven that God doesn’t exist, so any claims that your infinite wisdom have presented are TOTALLY MEANINGLESS. Good night, and may God bless your life forever. Edgar

Response:

Unscientific, non-reality based opinion.

Yes, that is exactly where your mentality has lead you. Christianity and the belief in Creation is very scientific if looked about in the right way. How? Banging your head agasint the wall for a day, and then taking a double dose of LSD? You can only look at science in a scientific way!

A pity.  Limited mentality in your case is very dangerous.  How much LSD have you taken in a lifetime?  There might be a few missing or dead brain cells. As mentioned before, Creation and evolution go hand in hand. Do you mean the word creation …. well maybe. If you mean biblical creation – nonsense!

Biblical Creation and evolution can go hand in hand by a scientific stand point to tie up the "theory of evolutions" loose ends that scientists cannot explain.  All one has to do is to use all knowledge of mankind at his disposal, without throwing out a vast amount of it, dismissing it as fairy tales and fallasies. One cannot be truthfully explained without the other. Science has done quite well explaing things without needing (or finiding evidence for) a god!

Science is as baffled at this Creation and evolution thing today as it was a hundred years ago.  Many scientists, who are Christian, are turning to the Bible for answers to loose ends in the "theory of evolution". If it were so, then one or the other would have overtaken the world with little or know question whatsoever. Bull shit! Science has answers — plenty of them.

Science has many loose ends that cannot be explained without God or the Biblical history. Science does not have ALL the answers, and never will.

Because it dismisses too many facts leaving a lot of unanswered questions and loose ends that cannot be explained any other way except with God. Science is STILL based in reality, facts and evidence; creationism is still based in fables and fairy tales.

With a mentality like this, it is a wonder you made it out of Kindergarten.  Today, that age old debate still rages on, and on, and on. The debate is over. Unfortunately that does not stop ignorance from trying to spread.

As long as atheists and non-believers persist, ignorance will persist in the world, and scientific questions will go unanswered forever. When you take away a part of history, gaps begin to form, and holes in theories keep them as that, just theories. We will never fully understand until we accept reality that God does exist in this universe and all around us. I will accept that reality the moment you PROVE that reality! You haven’t, you won’t, you can’t! You can no more prove YOUR god than the acient Romans and Greeks could prove their multiple gods!

And I will except your reality the moment you can PROVE your theories without you eliminating many facts of human history.  It still hasn’t been done by the all-knowing, all-powerful atheists and non-believers. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – BTW….there is a born again, fundamentalist christian in the White  House who, it appears, is just like the arrogant, selfish and uncontrollable child you  describe. Funny, I know that G.W. is a Christian, and to my belief has handled this crisin we are in quite well. I assume you mean crisis. He CREATED this crisis, by handling a situation like a moron! he is no longer concerned (interested?) in bin Laden (the man who caluse the tragedy) and is now trying to engage us in an invasion of a nation that has little, if anything, to do with 9/11!

And if you have concrete proof of this, then why don’t you excercise your rights in this nation and head up an impeachment procedure to remove him from office.  With your infinite wisdom, you do know that you can do that?  Of course you did.   Even better than I believed at first as he rushed off to start a war.  But he has not blasted Iraq out of existence because he knows that Saddam is waiting for him or someone to do just that so he can pounce like a waiting cat stalking its prey.  Saddam wants the US to go rushing in blindly bombing Iraq and the innocent peoples so he can look very good in the eyes of the world.  If you cannot see this, you are blind as a bat. Iraq has nothing to do qith 9/11. It is ENTIRELY a Bush corrupt, incompetent, political move!

And you have concrete proof of this?  We are dealing with a maniac in this little nation of Iraq that would sell his own grandmother for a buck, and a chance to remain in power, as would many Americans, if not all.  Do you have concrete proof that he was NOT supplying weapons to terrorists factions of the Muslim religion of Islam?  If so, present it.  I am sure the state department, as well as the president would like to see it as well, or are you as a Darwinian evolutionist used to hiding, withholding, destroying, or discarding the facts?  Bush and his administration have handled this situation very well despite how it started out. So why is he no longer interested in the man that caused the death of thousands of Americans?

And you have privy information on the inside of his mind that the rest of us are not privy to?  Enlighten us so we can believe too. If war is to be, then it has to be and will be time, but no sooner, or not a minute later.  Read Ecclesiastes 3:1-8.  If you have a Bible, look it up and read it.

You can acquire a Bible at any retail store, book store, or library. It would be a useful tool for you to broaden your search for the truth. War does not have to be … that’s deranged. You bible quotes mean nothing!

The Bible is God’s plan, our guide, and a book that is good for discipline, wisdom, finances, moral values, history, psychology, families, education, medical, and much, much more.  You should try reading it sometimes.  A lot of your questions and falasies in your beliefs could be answered.  The loopholes that you believe in could become closed, and your intelligence might be greatly improved. So you see, God has allowed mankind a time for everything that is under heaven. What god? You haven’t proven ANY god!

 I took the liberty of writing this for you all to see it for yourself and that I am not making it up. No one accused you of making up the bible; just that the bible (YOUR religous beliefs) are based on fables and fairy tales – not fact!

are just fairy tales?  Interesting.  The kingdoms and peoples that existed in the past, and the past in general, are all just fairy tales.  An interesting concept of our World History, you should write silently I smile with a smirking grin! I have given you the scriptures to view it for yourselves which is a very good practice rather than taking ones word for it as many people in our history have done due to illiteracy which reigned supreme and gave many religious leaders power to control their lives for a long, long time. Your "scriptures" mean nothing! They are a part of your religion – not the real world!

Christ and Christianity are as much a part of the real world as dinosaurs, man, and all that is in it.  Your philosophy is so full of holes that it can never possibly hold water (or anything else).  I see you didn’t post the scriptures, but you left the place where they could be found in the only book that has withstood the test of time. God does exist, and if you open your eyes, ears, and mind, you can see him too, in all of his glory.  Happy reading and may God richly bless you for doing this. My eyes, ears and mind are always open … to evidence. You have none; only religious babbling!

As is your babbling about things that you cannot prove.  My eyes, ears, and mind are too always open to everything and not just bits and pieces I choose for my own.  I am open to science, Creation, Evolution, God, Heaven, Hell, witchcraft and occult, and much, much more, because I believe that all of it plays a vital part of our human history and ancestry.  Atheists and non-believers, however, discard and dismiss parts of it and thus limits our history, knowledge, and understanding.  Atheists are as the Liberals of our democratic society here in America.  They only see what they wish to see, and dismiss the rest as "fairy tales". That blows your whole delusion to bits! It does nothing to anything as you have not yet proven that God doesn’t exist. You haven’t shown one shred of evidence god does exist! The burden is yours.

A typical atheistic cop out.  The burden also rest upon yourself.  You have an infinite wisdom, use it without deleting the facts of history and removing them from the eyes and ears of our children to prove that God doesnt’ exist.  Until I see it, I will always believe that GOD DOES EXIST regardless of what fractured evidence you might present Of course you can’t, so I don’t have to worry.   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  Try giving the real Jesus a try and step away from your denominalational Jesus.  You will see the difference for once in your life.  I did, and he has helped me through some of the toughest times of my life.  You also cannot explain away the miracles that still happen today as we go through this life.  So give God a try

… read more »

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You obviously don’t understand human nature very well. I understand human nature better than YOU will ever know.  I have lived it as well as studied the human mind from the best perspective that one can study anything.  So believe what you will, it is your right in a free society. Evolution is a fact of reality for life, planetary formation, and the development of the universe. The "theory of evolution", which it still is, is still chopped up with many holes like swiss cheese, and remains to have too many unanswered questions in it. If evolution was accepted by everyone then creationism will become a fairy tale. Creation will never become a fairy tale to anyone except the atheists who seek to destroy humanity at all costs. Our spontaneous creation by god is the fundamental cornerstone of christianity and many other religions. If we no longer were intentionally created, but instead evolved from other life forms, religions would completely loose any foundation it may have. This is why there is such resistance to evolution, not that it requires creationsim, but people are too scared to be wrong. Another reply that is wrought with loopholes and falasies using methods that still have work to be done to prove the atheist theory that the "theory of evolution" is the key to the beginnings of the human race. You still haven’t proven a thing.

Neither have you. Cosmopolite God delights in diversity.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you’re looking for proof that God exists in the Bible, forget it! God is truly beyond our human comprehension, and to box in, narrowly define and limit God to a book is totally asinine. So – since you cannot prove god exists, there is no valid reason to assume god exists! Shalom, Bill But the Bible is God’s Word for us to live by. You haven’t proven god exists – so any claims about the bible are meaningless!

I second this one

Response:

Unscientific, non-reality based opinion. Christianity and the belief in Creation is very scientific if looked about in the right way.  As mentioned before, Creation and evolution go hand in hand.  One cannot be truthfully explained without the other.  If it were so, then one or the other would have overtaken the world with little or know question whatsoever.  Today, that age old debate still rages on, and on, and on.  We will never fully understand until we accept reality that God does exist in this universe and all around us.

I thout the age old question was   Wich came first the chican or the egg – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – BTW….there is a born again, fundamentalist christian in the White House who, it appears, is just like the arrogant, selfish and uncontrollable child you describe. Funny, I know that G.W. is a Christian, and to my belief has handled this crisin we are in quite well.  Even better than I believed at first as he rushed off to start a war.  But he has not blasted Iraq out of existence because he knows that Saddam is waiting for him or someone to do just that so he can pounce like a waiting cat stalking its prey.  Saddam wants the US to go rushing in blindly bombing Iraq and the innocent peoples so he can look very good in the eyes of the world.  If you cannot see this, you are blind as a bat.  Bush and his administration have handled this situation very well despite how it started out.  If war is to be, then it has to be and will be time, but no sooner, or not a minute later.  Read Ecclesiastes 3:1-8.  If you have a Bible, look it up and read it. 1.  "To everything there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven. 2.  A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted; 3.  A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up; 4.  A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance; 5.  A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain form embracing; 6.  A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away. 7.  A time rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak; 8.  A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace." So you see, God has allowed mankind a time for everything that is under heaven.  I took the liberty of writing this for you all to see it for yourself and that I am not making it up.  I have given you the scriptures to view it for yourselves which is a very good practice rather than taking ones word for it as many people in our history have done due to illiteracy which reigned supreme and gave many religious leaders power to control their lives for a long, long time. God does exist, and if you open your eyes, ears, and mind, you can see him too, in all of his glory.  Happy reading and may God richly bless you for doing this. That blows your whole delusion to bits! It does nothing to anything as you have not yet proven that God doesn’t exist.  Try giving the real Jesus a try and step away from your denominalational Jesus.  You will see the difference for once in your life.  I did, and he has helped me through some of the toughest times of my life.  You also cannot explain away the miracles that still happen today as we go through this life.  So give God a try through Jesus Christ.

Response:

If you’re looking for proof that God exists in the Bible, forget it!

If you search for a thing from the wrong POINT OF VIEW, you will never prove a thing.  Try a different approach.  This philosophy goes along with anything in life, and not limited to religious nature.  I will let your intelligent and scientific mind find that approach for yourself.  It is the only fair thing to do in order to keep you from feeling utterly USELESS.  God is truly beyond our human comprehension, and to box in, narrowly define and limit God to a book is totally asinine.

Man, in all of his infinite wisdom, has already tried to place God in a box, with little success, I might add to the point of limiting him in almost every aspect of human life.  God is still in control of this world, whether we care to believe or not. Let me picture it this way for you.  If Jesus had come off of the cross at Calvary by divine power, what would the world be doing today?  Ponder over this question for a while and get back with me.  Emails welcome, and are subject to use by me in whatever way that I see fit. Deletion is possible. So – since you cannot prove god exists, there is no valid reason to assume god exists!

So, my friend, have you proven that God doesn’t exist?  That is the other question I pose tonight.  You have yet to do so in any form whatsoever, except to argue over trivial things because you appear to enjoy it. Oh, by the way, God is only unprovable to those who cannot, or will not believe. Shalom, Bill But the Bible is God’s Word for us to live by. You haven’t proven god exists – so any claims about the bible are meaningless!

You have not proven that God doesn’t exist, so any claims that your infinite wisdom have presented are TOTALLY MEANINGLESS. Good night, and may God bless your life forever. Edgar

Response:

Unscientific, non-reality based opinion. Christianity and the belief in Creation is very scientific if looked about in the right way.  As mentioned before, Creation and evolution go hand in hand.  One cannot be truthfully explained without the other.  If it were so, then one or the other would have overtaken the world with little or know question whatsoever.  

You obviously don’t understand human nature very well. Evolution is a fact of reality for life, planetary formation, and the development of the universe. If evolution was accepted by everyone then creationism will become a fairy tale. Our spontaneous creation by god is the fundamental cornerstone of christianity and many other religions. If we no longer were intentionally created, but instead evolved from other life forms, religions would completely loose any foundation it may have. This is why there is such resistance to evolution, not that it requires creationsim, but people are too scared to be wrong.

Response:

I found the following a long time ago and could not help but read it again to better understand why God exists.  After looking at the world around me, it is obvious because man needs all the help he can get to not blow up the world for his own pleasur like a little child with a temper tantrum.  And going out on our own away from God, that is exactly what we have become; little children with a bad temper and a lust for all the possessions we can get.  Well, happy reading and I hope this helps someone out there find a new understanding of who Jesus is and why God does exists. … When will you publish your next paper, Doctor Freud?

Why, my friend, are you waiting for your next athesistic laugh?  You appear to live and devote your entire life to making jokes, so I would guess that you are.

Response:

You obviously don’t understand human nature very well.

I understand human nature better than YOU will ever know.  I have lived it as well as studied the human mind from the best perspective that one can study anything.  So believe what you will, it is your right in a free society. Evolution is a fact of reality for life, planetary formation, and the development of the universe.

The "theory of evolution", which it still is, is still chopped up with many holes like swiss cheese, and remains to have too many unanswered questions in it. If evolution was accepted by everyone then creationism will become a fairy tale.

Creation will never become a fairy tale to anyone except the atheists who seek to destroy humanity at all costs. Our spontaneous creation by god is the fundamental cornerstone of christianity and many other religions. If we no longer were intentionally created, but instead evolved from other life forms, religions would completely loose any foundation it may have. This is why there is such resistance to evolution, not that it requires creationsim, but people are too scared to be wrong.

Another reply that is wrought with loopholes and falasies using methods that still have work to be done to prove the atheist theory that the "theory of evolution" is the key to the beginnings of the human race. You still haven’t proven a thing.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Unscientific, non-reality based opinion. Christianity and the belief in Creation is very scientific if looked about in the right way.  As mentioned before, Creation and evolution go hand in hand.  One cannot be truthfully explained without the other.  If it were so, then one or the other would have overtaken the world with little or know question whatsoever.  Today, that age old debate still rages on, and on, and on.  We will never fully understand until we accept reality that God does exist in this universe and all around us. BTW….there is a born again, fundamentalist christian in the White House who, it appears, is just like the arrogant, selfish and uncontrollable child you describe. Funny, I know that G.W. is a Christian, and to my belief has handled this crisin we are in quite well.  Even better than I believed at first as he rushed off to start a war.  But he has not blasted Iraq out of existence because he knows that Saddam is waiting for him or someone to do just that so he can pounce like a waiting cat stalking its prey.  Saddam wants the US to go rushing in blindly bombing Iraq and the innocent peoples so he can look very good in the eyes of the world.  If you cannot see this, you are blind as a bat.  Bush and his administration have handled this situation very well despite how it started out.  If war is to be, then it has to be and will be time, but no sooner, or not a minute later.  Read Ecclesiastes 3:1-8.  If you have a Bible, look it up and read it. 1.  "To everything there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven. 2.  A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted; 3.  A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up; 4.  A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance; 5.  A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain form embracing; 6.  A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away. 7.  A time rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak; 8.  A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace." So you see, God has allowed mankind a time for everything that is under heaven.  I took the liberty of writing this for you all to see it for yourself and that I am not making it up.  I have given you the scriptures to view it for yourselves which is a very good practice rather than taking ones word for it as many people in our history have done due to illiteracy which reigned supreme and gave many religious leaders power to control their lives for a long, long time. God does exist, and if you open your eyes, ears, and mind, you can see him too, in all of his glory.  Happy reading and may God richly bless you for doing this. That blows your whole delusion to bits! It does nothing to anything as you have not yet proven that God doesn’t exist.  Try giving the real Jesus a try and step away from your denominalational Jesus.  You will see the difference for once in your life.  I did, and he has helped me through some of the toughest times of my life.  You also cannot explain away the miracles that still happen today as we go through this life.  So give God a try through Jesus Christ. Please explain the " miracles " that are mentioned above. Cosmopolite God delights in diversity.

Miracles are the christians way of spells and wichcraft but they say it is richas and thusfore Good

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you’re looking for proof that God exists in the Bible, forget it! God is truly beyond our human comprehension, and to box in, narrowly define and limit God to a book is totally asinine. Shalom, Bill But the Bible is God’s Word for us to live by.  It is a guidebook, a book of discipline, a history book, a psychology book, as well as a book of prophesy that explains things that many an adult cannot fathom or come anywhere close to understanding.  Why?  Because most seculiar humans are looking at God from a worldly point of view without ever knowing him personally.  In this way, he becomes ever elusive seeking out only those who believe by faith and ask Jesus for forgiveness of their sins, for it is this man Jesus who has bridged the gap between God and man over the great divide of sin that separates the two. Without him, despite what many atheists, wiccans, and non-believers would say, no one will see the Father in heaven. Thank you for your time in allowing me to respond to this post.  May God bless you in your life forever.

the bible is nothing more than a fictianal noval created buy people with a need to hide ther lust for money ,power,and pleshur

Response:

Unscientific, non-reality based opinion. Christianity and the belief in Creation is very scientific if looked about in the right way.

How? Banging your head agasint the wall for a day, and then taking a double dose of LSD? You can only look at science in a scientific way! As mentioned before, Creation and evolution go hand in hand.

Do you mean the word creation …. well maybe. If you mean biblical creation – nonsense! One cannot be truthfully explained without the other.

Science has done quite well explaing things without needing (or finiding evidence for) a god! If it were so, then one or the other would have overtaken the world with little or know question whatsoever.

Bull shit! Science has answers — plenty of them. Science does not have ALL the answers, and never will. Science is STILL based in reality, facts and evidence; creationism is still based in fables and fairy tales.  Today, that age old debate still rages on, and on, and on.

The debate is over. Unfortunately that does not stop ignorance from trying to spread. We will never fully understand until we accept reality that God does exist in this universe and all around us.

I will accept that reality the moment you PROVE that reality! You haven’t, you won’t, you can’t! You can no more prove YOUR god than the acient Romans and Greeks could prove their multiple gods! BTW….there is a born again, fundamentalist christian in the White House who, it appears, is just like the arrogant, selfish and uncontrollable child you describe. Funny, I know that G.W. is a Christian, and to my belief has handled this crisin we are in quite well.

I assume you mean crisis. He CREATED this crisis, by handling a situation like a moron! he is no longer concerned (interested?) in bin Laden (the man who caluse the tragedy) and is now trying to engage us in an invasion of a nation that has little, if anything, to do with 9/11!   Even better than I believed at first as he rushed off to start a war.  But he has not blasted Iraq out of existence because he knows that Saddam is waiting for him or someone to do just that so he can pounce like a waiting cat stalking its prey.  Saddam wants the US to go rushing in blindly bombing Iraq and the innocent peoples so he can look very good in the eyes of the world.  If you cannot see this, you are blind as a bat.

Iraq has nothing to do qith 9/11. It is ENTIRELY a Bush corrupt, incompetent, political move!  Bush and his administration have handled this situation very well despite how it started out.

So why is he no longer interested in the man that caused the death of thousands of Americans? If war is to be, then it has to be and will be time, but no sooner, or not a minute later.  Read Ecclesiastes 3:1-8.  If you have a Bible, look it up and read it.

War does not have to be … that’s deranged. You bible quotes mean nothing! So you see, God has allowed mankind a time for everything that is under heaven.

What god? You haven’t proven ANY god!  I took the liberty of writing this for you all to see it for yourself and that I am not making it up.

No one accused you of making up the bible; just that the bible (YOUR religous beliefs) are based on fables and fairy tales – not fact! I have given you the scriptures to view it for yourselves which is a very good practice rather than taking ones word for it as many people in our history have done due to illiteracy which reigned supreme and gave many religious leaders power to control their lives for a long, long time.

Your "scriptures" mean nothing! They are a part of your religion – not the real world! God does exist, and if you open your eyes, ears, and mind, you can see him too, in all of his glory.  Happy reading and may God richly bless you for doing this.

My eyes, ears and mind are always open … to evidence. You have none; only religious babbling! That blows your whole delusion to bits! It does nothing to anything as you have not yet proven that God doesn’t exist.

You haven’t shown one shred of evidence god does exist! The burden is yours.  Try giving the real Jesus a try and step away from your denominalational Jesus.  You will see the difference for once in your life.  I did, and he has helped me through some of the toughest times of my life.  You also cannot explain away the miracles that still happen today as we go through this life.  So give God a try through Jesus Christ.

The very moment you provide evidence! and don’t even think about that insane crap that I have to try it first in order to believe! All that says is I have to be brainwashed into learning that what I’m being brainwashed about is true!

Response:

I found the following a long time ago and could not help but read it again to better understand why God exists.  After looking at the world around me, it is obvious because man needs all the help he can get to not blow up the world for his own pleasur like a little child with a temper tantrum.  And going out on our own away from God, that is exactly what we have become; little children with a bad temper and a lust for all the possessions we can get.  Well, happy reading and I hope this helps someone out there find a new understanding of who Jesus is and why God does exists.

Unscientific, non-reality based opinion. BTW….there is a born again, fundamentalist christian in the White House who, it appears, is just like the arrogant, selfish and uncontrollable child you describe. That blows your whole delusion to bits!

Response:

If you’re looking for proof that God exists in the Bible, forget it!  God is truly beyond our human comprehension, and to box in, narrowly define and limit God to a book is totally asinine. Shalom, Bill

But the Bible is God’s Word for us to live by.  It is a guidebook, a book of discipline, a history book, a psychology book, as well as a book of prophesy that explains things that many an adult cannot fathom or come anywhere close to understanding.  Why?  Because most seculiar humans are looking at God from a worldly point of view without ever knowing him personally.  In this way, he becomes ever elusive seeking out only those who believe by faith and ask Jesus for forgiveness of their sins, for it is this man Jesus who has bridged the gap between God and man over the great divide of sin that separates the two. Without him, despite what many atheists, wiccans, and non-believers would say, no one will see the Father in heaven. Thank you for your time in allowing me to respond to this post.  May God bless you in your life forever.

Response:

Unscientific, non-reality based opinion.

Christianity and the belief in Creation is very scientific if looked about in the right way.  As mentioned before, Creation and evolution go hand in hand.  One cannot be truthfully explained without the other.  If it were so, then one or the other would have overtaken the world with little or know question whatsoever.  Today, that age old debate still rages on, and on, and on.  We will never fully understand until we accept reality that God does exist in this universe and all around us. BTW….there is a born again, fundamentalist christian in the White House who, it appears, is just like the arrogant, selfish and uncontrollable child you describe.

Funny, I know that G.W. is a Christian, and to my belief has handled this crisin we are in quite well.  Even better than I believed at first as he rushed off to start a war.  But he has not blasted Iraq out of existence because he knows that Saddam is waiting for him or someone to do just that so he can pounce like a waiting cat stalking its prey.  Saddam wants the US to go rushing in blindly bombing Iraq and the innocent peoples so he can look very good in the eyes of the world.  If you cannot see this, you are blind as a bat.  Bush and his administration have handled this situation very well despite how it started out.  If war is to be, then it has to be and will be time, but no sooner, or not a minute later.  Read Ecclesiastes 3:1-8.  If you have a Bible, look it up and read it. 1.  "To everything there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven. 2.  A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted; 3.  A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up; 4.  A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance; 5.  A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain form embracing; 6.  A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away. 7.  A time rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak; 8.  A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace." So you see, God has allowed mankind a time for everything that is under heaven.  I took the liberty of writing this for you all to see it for yourself and that I am not making it up.  I have given you the scriptures to view it for yourselves which is a very good practice rather than taking ones word for it as many people in our history have done due to illiteracy which reigned supreme and gave many religious leaders power to control their lives for a long, long time. God does exist, and if you open your eyes, ears, and mind, you can see him too, in all of his glory.  Happy reading and may God richly bless you for doing this. That blows your whole delusion to bits!

It does nothing to anything as you have not yet proven that God doesn’t exist.  Try giving the real Jesus a try and step away from your denominalational Jesus.  You will see the difference for once in your life.  I did, and he has helped me through some of the toughest times of my life.  You also cannot explain away the miracles that still happen today as we go through this life.  So give God a try through Jesus Christ.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Unscientific, non-reality based opinion. Christianity and the belief in Creation is very scientific if looked about in the right way.  As mentioned before, Creation and evolution go hand in hand.  One cannot be truthfully explained without the other.  If it were so, then one or the other would have overtaken the world with little or know question whatsoever.  Today, that age old debate still rages on, and on, and on.  We will never fully understand until we accept reality that God does exist in this universe and all around us. BTW….there is a born again, fundamentalist christian in the White House who, it appears, is just like the arrogant, selfish and uncontrollable child you describe. Funny, I know that G.W. is a Christian, and to my belief has handled this crisin we are in quite well.  Even better than I believed at first as he rushed off to start a war.  But he has not blasted Iraq out of existence because he knows that Saddam is waiting for him or someone to do just that so he can pounce like a waiting cat stalking its prey.  Saddam wants the US to go rushing in blindly bombing Iraq and the innocent peoples so he can look very good in the eyes of the world.  If you cannot see this, you are blind as a bat.  Bush and his administration have handled this situation very well despite how it started out.  If war is to be, then it has to be and will be time, but no sooner, or not a minute later.  Read Ecclesiastes 3:1-8.  If you have a Bible, look it up and read it. 1.  "To everything there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven. 2.  A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted; 3.  A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up; 4.  A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance; 5.  A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain form embracing; 6.  A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away. 7.  A time rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak; 8.  A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace." So you see, God has allowed mankind a time for everything that is under heaven.  I took the liberty of writing this for you all to see it for yourself and that I am not making it up.  I have given you the scriptures to view it for yourselves which is a very good practice rather than taking ones word for it as many people in our history have done due to illiteracy which reigned supreme and gave many religious leaders power to control their lives for a long, long time. God does exist, and if you open your eyes, ears, and mind, you can see him too, in all of his glory.  Happy reading and may God richly bless you for doing this. That blows your whole delusion to bits! It does nothing to anything as you have not yet proven that God doesn’t exist.  Try giving the real Jesus a try and step away from your denominalational Jesus.  You will see the difference for once in your life.  I did, and he has helped me through some of the toughest times of my life.  You also cannot explain away the miracles that still happen today as we go through this life.  So give God a try through Jesus Christ.

Please explain the " miracles " that are mentioned above. Cosmopolite God delights in diversity.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I found the following a long time ago and could not help but read it again to better understand why God exists.  After looking at the world around me, it is obvious because man needs all the help he can get to not blow up the world for his own pleasur like a little child with a temper tantrum.  And going out on our own away from God, that is exactly what we have become; little children with a bad temper and a lust for all the possessions we can get.  Well, happy reading and I hope this helps someone out there find a new understanding of who Jesus is and why God does exists. Saturday, March 8, 2003: Devotional: Orderliness in our Christian life: Science and Creation together as one: an old concept in a new light: To the Christian, Creation reveals God’s wisdom and power and orderliness. The study of science provides a means for us to get a glimpse of His unfathomable wisdom. The Bible says, "The works of the Lord are great, studied by all who have pleasure in them" (Psalm 111:2). Finding pleasure in the works of God is a legitimate, pure motivation to pursue the study of science. By contrast a humanist, atheist, or agnostic, and non-believer typically looks at science as a means of showing that God is not needed. He next assumes that since God is not needed that it is irrational to believe that He does exist. The scientific method is simply a process which earlier scientists developed in an effort to qualify the order that they observed in the universe. It consists of: 1) developing models, such that the models describe how the universe normally behaves, 2) testing the models in an experiment in order to determine the scopes of their validities, and then 3) modifying the models as necessary to make them more consistent with the observations. Thus, the scientific method is limited to providing us with information in the form of descriptions and measurements. It does not tell us the underlying reasons for anything. The Bible teaches that God is a God of order and not confusion. As a scientist looks at Creation, he not only recognizes orderliness in the structure of things, but his entire system is founded and dependent on its existence. Even the modern field of "chaos theory" is dependent upon observed events which are chaotic from man’s perspective but which still have certain characteristic qualities which render them capable of analysis. Thus, the Christian sees the orderliness of the universe as an outward expression of God’s innate orderliness. In one sense, science does not have the tools to determine this: there is no tool or instrument which can measure the boundaries of Deity, by the very definition of Deity. Yet, science is not necessarily completely silent on the issue either. Let’s consider the origin of life, which the Bible presents as among the greatest of God’s works. I believe that if an attempt is made to reduce the origin of life to purely natural, "scientific" causes, one ends up with nothing but dead ends and contradictions. This may not be what is typically taught by atheists within the science community, but I will attempt to justify this position over the next several chapters. Let’s suppose we can indeed show that one runs into dead ends and contradictions whenever he attempts to explain the origin of life through natural means exclusively, apart from intervention by God. Then we would be left with the only rational explanation for life being that God is its source. This in turn would imply that He exists. Furthermore, the Bible teaches that God considers this to be a valid argument. Therefore, a person should be very, very cautious about discarding it, particularly before he considers carefully the evidence. "The heavens declare the glory of God; and the expanse of heaven shows the work of His hands" (Psalm 19:1). "Let everything that has breath praise the Lord"  (Psalm 150:6). . I hope this is helpful to anyone who is struggling with the age old debate of science and religion Creation and Evolution.  It can be easily explained if one does not discard any valuable information such as we already know.  This valuable information includes the theories that have come before us by the very scientists and theologists who have gone on now to know the truth.  They were the forerunners of our own understanding of the universe in which we live whether they were Christian or not.  Many still do not believe in the Creation theory, but I have always believed that evolution and Creation can go hand in hand if one accepts the theory of the "order of the universe" and will not discard a valuable variable such as God as fallacy, fantasy, or fairy tales.  When we do this, there is a tendency to create confusion among the population as it would be to discard the variable of evolution.  The two go hand in hand and should be treated as such. "…..For we trust we have a good conscience, in all things willing to live honestly

If you’re looking for proof that God exists in the Bible, forget it!  God is truly beyond our human comprehension, and to box in, narrowly define and limit God to a book is totally asinine. Shalom, Bill

Response:

If you’re looking for proof that God exists in the Bible, forget it! God is truly beyond our human comprehension, and to box in, narrowly define and limit God to a book is totally asinine.

So – since you cannot prove god exists, there is no valid reason to assume god exists! Shalom, Bill But the Bible is God’s Word for us to live by.

You haven’t proven god exists – so any claims about the bible are meaningless!

Response:

I found the following a long time ago and could not help but read it again to better understand why God exists.  After looking at the world around me, it is obvious because man needs all the help he can get to not blow up the world for his own pleasur like a little child with a temper tantrum.  And going out on our own away from God, that is exactly what we have become; little children with a bad temper and a lust for all the possessions we can get.  Well, happy reading and I hope this helps someone out there find a new understanding of who Jesus is and why God does exists.

… When will you publish your next paper, Doctor Freud?

Response:

I found the following a long time ago and could not help but read it again to better understand why God exists.  After looking at the world around me, it is obvious because man needs all the help he can get to not blow up the world for his own pleasur like a little child with a temper tantrum.  And going out on our own away from God, that is exactly what we have become; little children with a bad temper and a lust for all the possessions we can get.  Well, happy reading and I hope this helps someone out there find a new understanding of who Jesus is and why God does exists. Saturday, March 8, 2003: Devotional: Orderliness in our Christian life: Science and Creation together as one: an old concept in a new light: To the Christian, Creation reveals God’s wisdom and power and orderliness. The study of science provides a means for us to get a glimpse of His unfathomable wisdom. The Bible says, "The works of the Lord are great, studied by all who have pleasure in them" (Psalm 111:2). Finding pleasure in the works of God is a legitimate, pure motivation to pursue the study of science. By contrast a humanist, atheist, or agnostic, and non-believer typically looks at science as a means of showing that God is not needed. He next assumes that since God is not needed that it is irrational to believe that He does exist. The scientific method is simply a process which earlier scientists developed in an effort to qualify the order that they observed in the universe. It consists of: 1) developing models, such that the models describe how the universe normally behaves, 2) testing the models in an experiment in order to determine the scopes of their validities, and then 3) modifying the models as necessary to make them more consistent with the observations. Thus, the scientific method is limited to providing us with information in the form of descriptions and measurements. It does not tell us the underlying reasons for anything. The Bible teaches that God is a God of order and not confusion. As a scientist looks at Creation, he not only recognizes orderliness in the structure of things, but his entire system is founded and dependent on its existence. Even the modern field of "chaos theory" is dependent upon observed events which are chaotic from man’s perspective but which still have certain characteristic qualities which render them capable of analysis. Thus, the Christian sees the orderliness of the universe as an outward expression of God’s innate orderliness. In one sense, science does not have the tools to determine this: there is no tool or instrument which can measure the boundaries of Deity, by the very definition of Deity. Yet, science is not necessarily completely silent on the issue either. Let’s consider the origin of life, which the Bible presents as among the greatest of God’s works. I believe that if an attempt is made to reduce the origin of life to purely natural, "scientific" causes, one ends up with nothing but dead ends and contradictions. This may not be what is typically taught by atheists within the science community, but I will attempt to justify this position over the next several chapters. Let’s suppose we can indeed show that one runs into dead ends and contradictions whenever he attempts to explain the origin of life through natural means exclusively, apart from intervention by God. Then we would be left with the only rational explanation for life being that God is its source. This in turn would imply that He exists. Furthermore, the Bible teaches that God considers this to be a valid argument. Therefore, a person should be very, very cautious about discarding it, particularly before he considers carefully the evidence. "The heavens declare the glory of God; and the expanse of heaven shows the work of His hands" (Psalm 19:1). "Let everything that has breath praise the Lord"  (Psalm 150:6). . I hope this is helpful to anyone who is struggling with the age old debate of science and religion Creation and Evolution.  It can be easily explained if one does not discard any valuable information such as we already know.  This valuable information includes the theories that have come before us by the very scientists and theologists who have gone on now to know the truth.  They were the forerunners of our own understanding of the universe in which we live whether they were Christian or not.  Many still do not believe in the Creation theory, but I have always believed that evolution and Creation can go hand in hand if one accepts the theory of the "order of the universe" and will not discard a valuable variable such as God as fallacy, fantasy, or fairy tales.  When we do this, there is a tendency to create confusion among the population as it would be to discard the variable of evolution.  The two go hand in hand and should be treated as such. "…..For we trust we have a good conscience, in all things willing to live honestly

Response:

Question:

Been on 75 mgs of Effexor for two days now and am feeling just fine. No nausea this time, just a bit wired.  I was given a 7 37.5 mgs to alternate for the first two weeks, one day 75 the next day 37.5, but after day one I felt fine on the 75 mgs so I decided just to take the full dose everyday. I took a Xanax the other day, had a pap test, which causes me so much anxiety I could puke.  I felt awful, real, real tired.  I like the Klonopin better even though it takes longer to take effect.  I guess that’s the way it is, medication works differently for everyone. I am feeling better anxiety wise too, I’ve been taking Effexor ER for a month now.  Am going grocery shopping today and only feel mildy anxious about it.  Which is a big step for me because grocery shopping and the big stores are a huge cause of my anxiety. Hope to be around here more, I am off to check out the German newsreader.  Hugs,  Annette

Response:

So glad your med increase if working out well, Annette.  May your grocery shopping be uneventful. Take care, Liz – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Been on 75 mgs of Effexor for two days now and am feeling just fine. No nausea this time, just a bit wired.  I was given a 7 37.5 mgs to alternate for the first two weeks, one day 75 the next day 37.5, but after day one I felt fine on the 75 mgs so I decided just to take the full dose everyday. I took a Xanax the other day, had a pap test, which causes me so much anxiety I could puke.  I felt awful, real, real tired.  I like the Klonopin better even though it takes longer to take effect.  I guess that’s the way it is, medication works differently for everyone. I am feeling better anxiety wise too, I’ve been taking Effexor ER for a month now.  Am going grocery shopping today and only feel mildy anxious about it.  Which is a big step for me because grocery shopping and the big stores are a huge cause of my anxiety. Hope to be around here more, I am off to check out the German newsreader.  Hugs,  Annette

Response:

:Been on 75 mgs of Effexor for two days now and am feeling just fine. :No nausea this time, just a bit wired.  I was given a 7 37.5 mgs to :alternate for the first two weeks, one day 75 the next day 37.5, but :after day one I felt fine on the 75 mgs so I decided just to take the :full dose everyday. Dear Annette, Glad to hear that you are doing well on your increased effexor dose Jackie ~*~I answer the heroic question "Death, where is they sting?" with "It is here in my heart and mind and memories~*~  ~Maya Angelou~

Response:

Question:

you go girl!!!!!!!

Response:

I can understand that some posters may wish to use screen names to protect their identity or that of their kids when talking about personal AD/HD issues. (Although personally I have never had any problem with letting people know that I have AD/HD – but that is my choice and I respect the rights of others to choose to retain whatever level of privacy they feel comfortable with.) That apart, why would anybody wish to remain anonymous if they were genuinely interested in contributing to a rational and informed debate about treatment options ? This guy is not writing about personal stuff … he is just posting selected articles, a bit like a press clipping service.  There is very little original comment or analysis involved. Is he a guy who is just a teeny weensy bit obsessional about psychiatric " abuse " as a result of a bad personal experience ?  Is he a representative of a group which considers it has a " message " to give to the public ?  I don’t know …   All I know is that I have a distrust of writers who just quote ( or maybe misquote) other people’s stuff without making any sort of personal contribution to the news group. Again, that is my own opinion / prejudice. Ian N Ford

Response:

It is this scetion that got my attention:   "Domain System inverse mapping provided by:    GATEKEEPER.EOP.GOV  198.137.241.3    SEC1.DNS.PSI.NET  38.8.92.2    SEC2.DNS.PSI.NET  38.8.93.2" If he is running through Psi.net, they have a very strict abuse policy online and I might actually be able to get it stopped. I am afraid I don’t know enough about headers yet but i’ll read up on it and let you know…. Susan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The govt. header is obviously forged.  Do you think that the UFO cult path is real? George Maybe he’s beaming down from a UFO? I wonder what the FBI would say about his NNTP posting host : <snipped Path: news1.rdc2.pa.home.com!newshub1.rdc2.pa.home.com!a-newshub1.rdc2.pa.home .com !newshub2.home.com!news.home.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.alt.net!churc h.of .scientology.org!lafayette.ronald.hubbard!UFO Doncha just love that path. :-/ — Light, Love, & Laughter, Kitten, Goddess of Mischief "Thousands of years ago, cats were worshipped as gods. Cats have never forgotten this." – Anonymous "Just for today, do not worry;  Just for today, do not anger; Earn your living honestly; Honor your parents, teachers and elders; Show gratitude for every living thing."- Dr. Mikao Usui Before you buy. Before you buy. — Light, Love, & Laughter, Kitten, Goddess of Mischief "Thousands of years ago, cats were worshipped as gods. Cats have never forgotten this." – Anonymous "Just for today, do not worry;  Just for today, do not anger; Earn your living honestly; Honor your parents, teachers and elders; Show gratitude for every living thing."- Dr. Mikao Usui Before you buy.

Response:

The govt. header is obviously forged.  Do you think that the UFO cult path is real? George

Maybe he’s beaming down from a UFO? I wonder what the FBI would say about his NNTP posting host : <snipped Path:

news1.rdc2.pa.home.com!newshub1.rdc2.pa.home.com!a-newshub1.rdc2.pa.home .com

!newshub2.home.com!news.home.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.alt.net!churc – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – h.of .scientology.org!lafayette.ronald.hubbard!UFO Doncha just love that path. :-/ — Light, Love, & Laughter, Kitten, Goddess of Mischief "Thousands of years ago, cats were worshipped as gods. Cats have never forgotten this." – Anonymous "Just for today, do not worry;  Just for today, do not anger; Earn your living honestly; Honor your parents, teachers and elders; Show gratitude for every living thing."- Dr. Mikao Usui Before you buy. Before you buy.

– Light, Love, & Laughter, Kitten, Goddess of Mischief "Thousands of years ago, cats were worshipped as gods. Cats have never forgotten this." – Anonymous "Just for today, do not worry;  Just for today, do not anger; Earn your living honestly; Honor your parents, teachers and elders; Show gratitude for every living thing."- Dr. Mikao Usui Before you buy.

Response:

I wonder what the FBI would say about his NNTP posting host : <snipped Path:

news1.rdc2.pa.home.com!newshub1.rdc2.pa.home.com!a-newshub1.rdc2.pa.home.co m !newshub2.home.com!news.home.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.alt.net!church.o f .scientology.org!lafayette.ronald.hubbard!UFO

Doncha just love that path. :-/ — Light, Love, & Laughter, Kitten, Goddess of Mischief "Thousands of years ago, cats were worshipped as gods. Cats have never forgotten this." – Anonymous "Just for today, do not worry;  Just for today, do not anger; Earn your living honestly; Honor your parents, teachers and elders; Show gratitude for every living thing."- Dr. Mikao Usui Before you buy.

Response:

The govt. header is obviously forged.  Do you think that the UFO cult path is real? George I wonder what the FBI would say about his NNTP posting host : <snipped Path:

news1.rdc2.pa.home.com!newshub1.rdc2.pa.home.com!a-newshub1.rdc2.pa.home .com !newshub2.home.com!news.home.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.alt.net!churc h.of – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – .scientology.org!lafayette.ronald.hubbard!UFO Doncha just love that path. :-/ — Light, Love, & Laughter, Kitten, Goddess of Mischief "Thousands of years ago, cats were worshipped as gods. Cats have never forgotten this." – Anonymous "Just for today, do not worry;  Just for today, do not anger; Earn your living honestly; Honor your parents, teachers and elders; Show gratitude for every living thing."- Dr. Mikao Usui Before you buy.

Before you buy.

Response:

No kidding, you’ll vote for the most screwed up candidate?  Maybe that explains some of Bush’s support:  "He almost killed his sister while driving under the influence?  Excellent, he’s our boy!" – Jeff Anyway, I’m infuriated, and voting for Bush STRICTLY because he’s been around the block a few times.  I love every piece of mind-altering scoop they get on him.

– ‘98 Rans V-Rex    ==–%   Waltham, MA    ()    O http://www.BlueSNAFU.com – v2.36

Response:

I would love to get the story out that the Government is Spaming the Usenet and how unfair it is since we are powerless to stop it. If it is true, I almost hope it is….

Spammers, net kooks, and trolls love to forge their headers.  One of their favorite things to do is put in bogus governmental tracking info or to put in tracking info for three or four bogus originating services. — Light, Love, & Laughter, Kitten, Goddess of Mischief "Thousands of years ago, cats were worshipped as gods. Cats have never forgotten this." – Anonymous "Just for today, do not worry;  Just for today, do not anger; Earn your living honestly; Honor your parents, teachers and elders; Show gratitude for every living thing."- Dr. Mikao Usui Before you buy.

Response:

I would love to get the story out that the Government is Spaming the Usenet and how unfair it is since we are powerless to stop it. If it is true, I almost hope it is…. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – OH MY GOD! I DESPISE THE OUR GOVERNMENT!  I knew they would stoop to such lengths!  I will be away from my PC till Tuesday but believe me I intend to get to the bottom of this.  I have been on an anti-DEA crusade for over 5 years.  I can feel the chunks rising again. OA.EOP.GOV stands for Office of Administration, Executive Office of the President.  I do not know if this is an alius that wack-o was able to use or if its really them. Anyway, I’m infuriated, and voting for Bush STRICTLY because he’s been around the block a few times.  I love every piece of mind-altering scoop they get on him. Susan Aschner Kearny, NJ (So the DEA can find me better). I wonder what the FBI would say about his NNTP posting host : Executive Office Of The President USA (NET-EOPNET-C1)    Room NEOB 4208    725 17th Street NW    Washington, DC 20503    US    Netname: EOPNET-C1    Netblock: 198.137.240.0 – 198.137.240.255    Coordinator:       (202) 395-6417    Domain System inverse mapping provided by:    GATEKEEPER.EOP.GOV  198.137.241.3    SEC1.DNS.PSI.NET  38.8.92.2    SEC2.DNS.PSI.NET  38.8.93.2    Record last updated on 04-May-1999.    Database last updated on 4-Nov-2000 18:06:29 EDT.Path: news1.rdc2.pa.home.com!newshub1.rdc2.pa.home.com!a-newshub1.rdc2.pa.home.co m !newshub2.home.com!news.home.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.alt.net!church.o f .scientology.org!lafayette.ronald.hubbard!UFO Newsgroups: alt.support.survivors.prozac,alt.support.attn-deficit,alt.support.depressio n .medication,alt.support.depression,alt.support.depression.manic,alt.society . mental-health,misc.kids.health,alt.parenting.solutions Organization: Mental Health Liberation Front Lines: 95 NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.137.240.127 Keywords: Serzone Nefadar nefazodone Anafranil clomipramine Celexa Cipramil citalopram Luvox Floxyfral fluvoxamine Sarafem Prozac Fontex fluoxetine Zoloft sertraline Paxil paroxetine Effexor venlafaxine Lamictal lamotrigine Normud zimelidine Upstene indalpine Adapin Sinequan doxepin Amitid Elavil Endep amitriptyline Haldol haloperidol Vestra reboxetine Nembutol pentobarbital Pertrofrane desipramine Neurontin gabapentin Wellbutrin Zyban bupropion Nardil phenelzine Asendin amoxapine Tofranil imipramine Vivactil protriptyline Surmontin trimipramine Ludiomil maprotiline Norpramin desipramine Dutonin nefazodone Parnate Aventyl Pamelor nortriptyline tranylcypromine Desyrel trazodone Marplan isocarboxazid Remeron mirtazapine Aurorix Mannerix moclobemide Seroxat paroxetine Xanax alprazolam Klonopin clonazepam Tolvon minaserin Desyrel trazodone tranylcypromin St John’s Wort hypericin monoamine oxidase inhibitor selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor tricyclic antidepressant Xref: newshub1.rdc2.pa.home.com alt.support.survivors.prozac:30014220 alt.support.attn-deficit:30119798 alt.support.depression.medication:30061886 alt.support.depression:30785838 alt.support.depression.manic:30146558 alt.society.mental-health:30017788 misc.kids.health:30040893 alt.parenting.solutions:30161942 Well, to him I’d like to say…. Do NOT talk to me about hating Ritalin until you find yourself walking away and going on to the next task prematurely before even flushing the toilet, or putting on BOTH shoes instead of just one. Do not talk to me until you realize that you have run out of the house and gotten on a train before turning off the piolet light on the stove, or left the iron on, or left a cigarette burning. Do not talk to me until you see your life as a mile-high pile of thoughts that could never be sorted, and can barely think of having friends because you can never get organized enough to leave your house before dark! Do not talk to me until you find out that you will ALWAYS think this way unless you go to a shrink every month and get a "Controlled Substance" prescription ON PAPER because the DEA won’t allow it any other way. What Magical Herb do you have for me that I havent tried? I believe Ritalin saves my life and possibly my neighborhood everyday.  Ritalin does NOT make me feel great, I feel just possibly a tiny bit normal, possibly. To see how we feel, go without sleep for 48 hours and then make everything in your life a desparately important priority. The wired rushing around and confused thinking you are experiencing is how we feel everyday.  Go ahead try it, I dare you. Or actually I do have a spare room, you are welcome to come live here and observe.  I’ll even go off Ritalin for you and it’ll be a real kick!  You’ll love following me around turning things off, and watching me cry over never being able to find anything at all. You have an open invitation: I live in Kearny, NJ and I will pick you up at Newark airport anyday you’d like.  Stay for as long as you can stand! Sincerily, Susan Aschner Kearny, NJ

Response:

Well, to him I’d like to say…. Do NOT talk to me about hating Ritalin until you find yourself walking away and going on to the next task prematurely before even flushing the toilet, or putting on BOTH shoes instead of just one. Do not talk to me until you realize that you have run out of the house and gotten on a train before turning off the piolet light on the stove, or left the iron on, or left a cigarette burning. Do not talk to me until you see your life as a mile-high pile of thoughts that could never be sorted, and can barely think of having friends because you can never get organized enough to leave your house before dark! Do not talk to me until you find out that you will ALWAYS think this way unless you go to a shrink every month and get a "Controlled Substance" prescription ON PAPER because the DEA won’t allow it any other way. What Magical Herb do you have for me that I havent tried? I believe Ritalin saves my life and possibly my neighborhood everyday.  Ritalin does NOT make me feel great, I feel just possibly a tiny bit normal, possibly. To see how we feel, go without sleep for 48 hours and then make everything in your life a desparately important priority. The wired rushing around and confused thinking you are experiencing is how we feel everyday.  Go ahead try it, I dare you. Or actually I do have a spare room, you are welcome to come live here and observe.  I’ll even go off Ritalin for you and it’ll be a real kick!  You’ll love following me around turning things off, and watching me cry over never being able to find anything at all. You have an open invitation: I live in Kearny, NJ and I will pick you up at Newark airport anyday you’d like.  Stay for as long as you can stand! Sincerily, Susan Aschner Kearny, NJ

Response:

Susan, are you *sure* you’d want to consider bringing into your home someone with "hate" in all his fake Usenet names? Joe Parsons

[snip] Or actually I do have a spare room, you are welcome to come live here and observe.  I’ll even go off Ritalin for you and it’ll be a real kick!  You’ll love following me around turning things off, and watching me cry over never being able to find anything at all. You have an open invitation: I live in Kearny, NJ and I will pick you up at Newark airport anyday you’d like.  Stay for as long as you can stand!

Frequently Asked Questions for alt.support.attn-deficit and other resources for dealing with attention deficit disorder are at http://www.cyber-mall.com/asad/faq.html

Response:

I believe I can turn anyone who witnesses my daily life around from Hating helpful prescription drugs! In fact I think we’d get a formal apology! Susan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Susan, are you *sure* you’d want to consider bringing into your home someone with "hate" in all his fake Usenet names? Joe Parsons [snip] Or actually I do have a spare room, you are welcome to come live here and observe.  I’ll even go off Ritalin for you and it’ll be a real kick!  You’ll love following me around turning things off, and watching me cry over never being able to find anything at all. You have an open invitation: I live in Kearny, NJ and I will pick you up at Newark airport anyday you’d like.  Stay for as long as you can stand! Frequently Asked Questions for alt.support.attn-deficit and other resources for dealing with attention deficit disorder are at http://www.cyber-mall.com/asad/faq.html

Response:

Susan, He’s a raving lunatic.  He’s homeless and stays at a Y. He lost his job as a teacher.  He refuses treatment. His wife and kids left him after being abused by him. He’s much worse off than you but he’s too paranoid to improve his situation.  He’s very pathetic, but there’s no hope of helping him from our position. George – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I believe I can turn anyone who witnesses my daily life around from Hating helpful prescription drugs! In fact I think we’d get a formal apology! Susan Susan, are you *sure* you’d want to consider bringing into your home someone with "hate" in all his fake Usenet names? Joe Parsons [snip] Or actually I do have a spare room, you are welcome to come live here and observe.  I’ll even go off Ritalin for you and it’ll be a real kick!  You’ll love following me around turning things off, and watching me cry over never being able to find anything at all. You have an open invitation: I live in Kearny, NJ and I will pick you up at Newark airport anyday you’d like.  Stay for as long as you can stand! Frequently Asked Questions for alt.support.attn-deficit and other resources for dealing with attention deficit disorder are at http://www.cyber-mall.com/asad/faq.html

Before you buy.

Response:

Oh, well I certainly do not need another ADD’er living in this house! I am about all I can take.  Thanks for the advice.  Sounds like a real problem child, I can’t believe he’s not even in any position to talk! I’ll ignore him for now but next week I will try to track him down and get rid of him (from online, I mean). Susan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Susan, He’s a raving lunatic.  He’s homeless and stays at a Y. He lost his job as a teacher.  He refuses treatment. His wife and kids left him after being abused by him. He’s much worse off than you but he’s too paranoid to improve his situation.  He’s very pathetic, but there’s no hope of helping him from our position. George I believe I can turn anyone who witnesses my daily life around from Hating helpful prescription drugs! In fact I think we’d get a formal apology! Susan Susan, are you *sure* you’d want to consider bringing into your home someone with "hate" in all his fake Usenet names? Joe Parsons [snip] Or actually I do have a spare room, you are welcome to come live here and observe.  I’ll even go off Ritalin for you and it’ll be a real kick!  You’ll love following me around turning things off, and watching me cry over never being able to find anything at all. You have an open invitation: I live in Kearny, NJ and I will pick you up at Newark airport anyday you’d like.  Stay for as long as you can stand! Frequently Asked Questions for alt.support.attn-deficit and other resources for dealing with attention deficit disorder are at http://www.cyber-mall.com/asad/faq.html Before you buy.

Response:

Susan, are you *sure* you’d want to consider bringing into your home someone with "hate" in all his fake Usenet names?

Susan, are you *sure* you’d want to consider bringing somebody into Kearny, NJ? I must admit I’m biased.  My loving husband had to go there for a project, working day and night.  He could see the accordion wire-topped lots from his hotel window.   E. Penrose

Response:

I wonder what the FBI would say about his NNTP posting host : Executive Office Of The President USA (NET-EOPNET-C1)    Room NEOB 4208    725 17th Street NW    Washington, DC 20503    US    Netname: EOPNET-C1    Netblock: 198.137.240.0 – 198.137.240.255    Coordinator:       (202) 395-6417    Domain System inverse mapping provided by:    GATEKEEPER.EOP.GOV  198.137.241.3    SEC1.DNS.PSI.NET  38.8.92.2    SEC2.DNS.PSI.NET  38.8.93.2    Record last updated on 04-May-1999.    Database last updated on 4-Nov-2000 18:06:29 EDT.Path: news1.rdc2.pa.home.com!newshub1.rdc2.pa.home.com!a-newshub1.rdc2.pa.home.co m !newshub2.home.com!news.home.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.alt.net!church.o f .scientology.org!lafayette.ronald.hubbard!UFO Newsgroups: alt.support.survivors.prozac,alt.support.attn-deficit,alt.support.depressio n .medication,alt.support.depression,alt.support.depression.manic,alt.society . mental-health,misc.kids.health,alt.parenting.solutions Organization: Mental Health Liberation Front Lines: 95 NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.137.240.127 Keywords: Serzone Nefadar nefazodone Anafranil clomipramine Celexa Cipramil citalopram Luvox Floxyfral fluvoxamine Sarafem Prozac Fontex fluoxetine Zoloft sertraline Paxil paroxetine Effexor venlafaxine Lamictal lamotrigine Normud zimelidine Upstene indalpine Adapin Sinequan doxepin Amitid Elavil Endep amitriptyline Haldol haloperidol Vestra reboxetine Nembutol pentobarbital Pertrofrane desipramine Neurontin gabapentin Wellbutrin Zyban bupropion Nardil phenelzine Asendin amoxapine Tofranil imipramine Vivactil protriptyline Surmontin trimipramine Ludiomil maprotiline Norpramin desipramine Dutonin nefazodone Parnate Aventyl Pamelor nortriptyline tranylcypromine Desyrel trazodone Marplan isocarboxazid Remeron mirtazapine Aurorix Mannerix moclobemide Seroxat paroxetine Xanax alprazolam Klonopin clonazepam Tolvon minaserin Desyrel trazodone tranylcypromin St John’s Wort hypericin monoamine oxidase inhibitor selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor tricyclic antidepressant Xref: newshub1.rdc2.pa.home.com alt.support.survivors.prozac:30014220 alt.support.attn-deficit:30119798 alt.support.depression.medication:30061886 alt.support.depression:30785838 alt.support.depression.manic:30146558 alt.society.mental-health:30017788 misc.kids.health:30040893 alt.parenting.solutions:30161942

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, to him I’d like to say…. Do NOT talk to me about hating Ritalin until you find yourself walking away and going on to the next task prematurely before even flushing the toilet, or putting on BOTH shoes instead of just one. Do not talk to me until you realize that you have run out of the house and gotten on a train before turning off the piolet light on the stove, or left the iron on, or left a cigarette burning. Do not talk to me until you see your life as a mile-high pile of thoughts that could never be sorted, and can barely think of having friends because you can never get organized enough to leave your house before dark! Do not talk to me until you find out that you will ALWAYS think this way unless you go to a shrink every month and get a "Controlled Substance" prescription ON PAPER because the DEA won’t allow it any other way. What Magical Herb do you have for me that I havent tried? I believe Ritalin saves my life and possibly my neighborhood everyday.  Ritalin does NOT make me feel great, I feel just possibly a tiny bit normal, possibly. To see how we feel, go without sleep for 48 hours and then make everything in your life a desparately important priority. The wired rushing around and confused thinking you are experiencing is how we feel everyday.  Go ahead try it, I dare you. Or actually I do have a spare room, you are welcome to come live here and observe.  I’ll even go off Ritalin for you and it’ll be a real kick!  You’ll love following me around turning things off, and watching me cry over never being able to find anything at all. You have an open invitation: I live in Kearny, NJ and I will pick you up at Newark airport anyday you’d like.  Stay for as long as you can stand! Sincerily, Susan Aschner Kearny, NJ

Response:

Oh, well I certainly do not need another ADD’er living in this house! I am about all I can take.  Thanks for the advice.  Sounds like a real problem child, I can’t believe he’s not even in any position to talk! I’ll ignore him for now but next week I will try to track him down and get rid of him (from online, I mean). Susan

In this house we have more than one. We have had to find creative ways to cope But it’s not easy that’s for sure. — Norma Destination —- Procrastination

Response:

OH MY GOD! I DESPISE THE OUR GOVERNMENT!  I knew they would stoop to such lengths!  I will be away from my PC till Tuesday but believe me I intend to get to the bottom of this.  I have been on an anti-DEA crusade for over 5 years.  I can feel the chunks rising again. OA.EOP.GOV stands for Office of Administration, Executive Office of the President.  I do not know if this is an alius that wack-o was able to use or if its really them. Anyway, I’m infuriated, and voting for Bush STRICTLY because he’s been around the block a few times.  I love every piece of mind-altering scoop they get on him. Susan Aschner Kearny, NJ (So the DEA can find me better). – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I wonder what the FBI would say about his NNTP posting host : Executive Office Of The President USA (NET-EOPNET-C1)    Room NEOB 4208    725 17th Street NW    Washington, DC 20503    US    Netname: EOPNET-C1    Netblock: 198.137.240.0 – 198.137.240.255    Coordinator:       (202) 395-6417    Domain System inverse mapping provided by:    GATEKEEPER.EOP.GOV  198.137.241.3    SEC1.DNS.PSI.NET  38.8.92.2    SEC2.DNS.PSI.NET  38.8.93.2    Record last updated on 04-May-1999.    Database last updated on 4-Nov-2000 18:06:29 EDT.Path: news1.rdc2.pa.home.com!newshub1.rdc2.pa.home.com!a-newshub1.rdc2.pa.home.co m !newshub2.home.com!news.home.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.alt.net!church.o f .scientology.org!lafayette.ronald.hubbard!UFO Newsgroups: alt.support.survivors.prozac,alt.support.attn-deficit,alt.support.depressio n .medication,alt.support.depression,alt.support.depression.manic,alt.society . mental-health,misc.kids.health,alt.parenting.solutions Organization: Mental Health Liberation Front Lines: 95 NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.137.240.127 Keywords: Serzone Nefadar nefazodone Anafranil clomipramine Celexa Cipramil citalopram Luvox Floxyfral fluvoxamine Sarafem Prozac Fontex fluoxetine Zoloft sertraline Paxil paroxetine Effexor venlafaxine Lamictal lamotrigine Normud zimelidine Upstene indalpine Adapin Sinequan doxepin Amitid Elavil Endep amitriptyline Haldol haloperidol Vestra reboxetine Nembutol pentobarbital Pertrofrane desipramine Neurontin gabapentin Wellbutrin Zyban bupropion Nardil phenelzine Asendin amoxapine Tofranil imipramine Vivactil protriptyline Surmontin trimipramine Ludiomil maprotiline Norpramin desipramine Dutonin nefazodone Parnate Aventyl Pamelor nortriptyline tranylcypromine Desyrel trazodone Marplan isocarboxazid Remeron mirtazapine Aurorix Mannerix moclobemide Seroxat paroxetine Xanax alprazolam Klonopin clonazepam Tolvon minaserin Desyrel trazodone tranylcypromin St John’s Wort hypericin monoamine oxidase inhibitor selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor tricyclic antidepressant Xref: newshub1.rdc2.pa.home.com alt.support.survivors.prozac:30014220 alt.support.attn-deficit:30119798 alt.support.depression.medication:30061886 alt.support.depression:30785838 alt.support.depression.manic:30146558 alt.society.mental-health:30017788 misc.kids.health:30040893 alt.parenting.solutions:30161942 Well, to him I’d like to say…. Do NOT talk to me about hating Ritalin until you find yourself walking away and going on to the next task prematurely before even flushing the toilet, or putting on BOTH shoes instead of just one. Do not talk to me until you realize that you have run out of the house and gotten on a train before turning off the piolet light on the stove, or left the iron on, or left a cigarette burning. Do not talk to me until you see your life as a mile-high pile of thoughts that could never be sorted, and can barely think of having friends because you can never get organized enough to leave your house before dark! Do not talk to me until you find out that you will ALWAYS think this way unless you go to a shrink every month and get a "Controlled Substance" prescription ON PAPER because the DEA won’t allow it any other way. What Magical Herb do you have for me that I havent tried? I believe Ritalin saves my life and possibly my neighborhood everyday.  Ritalin does NOT make me feel great, I feel just possibly a tiny bit normal, possibly. To see how we feel, go without sleep for 48 hours and then make everything in your life a desparately important priority. The wired rushing around and confused thinking you are experiencing is how we feel everyday.  Go ahead try it, I dare you. Or actually I do have a spare room, you are welcome to come live here and observe.  I’ll even go off Ritalin for you and it’ll be a real kick!  You’ll love following me around turning things off, and watching me cry over never being able to find anything at all. You have an open invitation: I live in Kearny, NJ and I will pick you up at Newark airport anyday you’d like.  Stay for as long as you can stand! Sincerily, Susan Aschner Kearny, NJ

Response:

Question:

Hi Bonnie, Good to see you posting again! Zoloft and Prozac have virtually the same profile, as far as side effects, effectiveness, the whole nine yards. But since they are different drugs, it is entirely possible that Prozac will work better than Zoloft for you. 60-80mgs of Prozac will be roughly equivalent to your dose of Zoloft. Actually, 80mgs of Prozac is pretty high. Newer drugs like Celexa have not been shown to be any more or less effective than older ADs like Prozac. The selling point of Celexa is that it is  a more selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor than the older ADs, so each should cause less of the wonderful AD side effects. It is a good drug, and I take it, but it is only a marginal improvement over the others, not a quantum leap. Clinical trials on Celexa show absolutely no benefit to taking more than 40mgs a day. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi All: I know that it’s been awhile since I’ve posted, hope nobody forgot me. My p/doc switched a/d. I was taking Zoloft, 200mgs a day. and now she has me on Prozac. Does anyone have any input on this? I have been on a real bad rollercoaster ride and I damn near fell out of the car! I have had the nastiest mood swing lately. Man! Hope to hear that everyone is doing well, and I’ll try not to stay away so long. Thanks everyone. Bonnie~aka~bonster~aka~bon in IRC

Response:

hi Bonnie, I was taking Zoloft 150, didn’t work for me and got switched to prozac about 1 month ago, I feel better than I ever have before, hope it works for you to…mary

Response:

Hi All: I know that it’s been awhile since I’ve posted, hope nobody forgot me. My p/doc switched a/d. I was taking Zoloft, 200mgs a day. and now she has me on Prozac. Does anyone have any input on this?

I have been on 60 mgs of prozac for nearly six months now.  Prozac by itself made me very manic.  Mixed with Klonopin and Neurontin my feet are on the floor and the rollercoaster has screeched to a grinding halt. I really like prozac.  The first few weeks I had nasty side effects… but they did subside.  I am very used to it now and I find it is an effective AD. I have been on a real bad rollercoaster ride and I damn near fell out of the car! I have had the nastiest mood swing lately. Man! Hope to hear that everyone is doing well, and I’ll try not to stay away so long. Thanks everyone.

Welcome back Bonnie and lots of luck. Julez — It’s spring fever–you don’t know quite what it is you want, but it just fairly makes your heart ache, you want it so. – - Mark Twain [Samuel Langhornne Clemens] (1835-1910)

Response:

Have been on prozac and depakote for a year (almost) and the swings have slowed to toleration.  Prozac alone made me manic as all get out (Bulletproof was my term for it). You might try a stabilizer with prozac, if your pdoc allows.  That’s what worked for me. Dio – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi All: I know that it’s been awhile since I’ve posted, hope nobody forgot me. My p/doc switched a/d. I was taking Zoloft, 200mgs a day. and now she has me on Prozac. Does anyone have any input on this? I have been on 60 mgs of prozac for nearly six months now.  Prozac by itself made me very manic.  Mixed with Klonopin and Neurontin my feet are on the floor and the rollercoaster has screeched to a grinding halt. I really like prozac.  The first few weeks I had nasty side effects… but they did subside.  I am very used to it now and I find it is an effective AD. I have been on a real bad rollercoaster ride and I damn near fell out of the car! I have had the nastiest mood swing lately. Man! Hope to hear that everyone is doing well, and I’ll try not to stay away so long. Thanks everyone. Welcome back Bonnie and lots of luck. Julez — It’s spring fever–you don’t know quite what it is you want, but it just fairly makes your heart ache, you want it so. – - Mark Twain [Samuel Langhornne Clemens] (1835-1910)

Response:

hi Bonnie, I was taking Zoloft 150, didn’t work for me and got switched to prozac about 1 month ago, I feel better than I ever have before, hope it works for you to…mary

Thanks Mary: me too!

Response:

Hi Dio:

Yes, in fact, I do take a mood stabilizer, she has me on Lithobid. Hopefully this stuff will work. If not, back to the drawing board again. Stuff happens! Thanks, Bonnie

Response:

Hey Bon Bon! Wondering why you Pdoc switched you from Zoloft? Side-effects or not working? Prozac is a "first level" anti-depressant. The stuff they give to "normal" people. I took it for years before I was properly diagnoised.  For me, it was like giving 200mg of Motrin for pain relief to a person with a gun shot wound. Not too effective. How much are you taking? I think I remember reading that 80mg is pretty much the top dose for Prozac, but don’t quote me.  Did you ask him about Celexa? It is a newer SSRI anti-depressant that was approved last summer (but used in Sweden for years). My Pdoc explained that Celexa is "more specific" than the old SSRIs (sorry I can’t explain, ‘cuz I don’t understand all the receptors and such). Ki – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Bonnie,I remember you posting and have missed them.Welcome back.I don.t post much.I have taken prozac for four years and helps obsessions greatly but I still need wellbutrin and zyprexa to keep stable.Hope you feel better.Hang in there.  Carolyn Thanks Carolyn: I have been so out of whack lately, I was wondering how good Prozac is. Anyway, take care and don’t be a stranger, and I’ll try not to either. lol

Response:

Hi All: I know that it’s been awhile since I’ve posted, hope nobody forgot me. My p/doc switched a/d. I was taking Zoloft, 200mgs a day. and now she has me on Prozac. Does anyone have any input on this? I have been on a real bad rollercoaster ride and I damn near fell out of the car! I have had the nastiest mood swing lately. Man! Hope to hear that everyone is doing well, and I’ll try not to stay away so long. Thanks everyone. Bonnie~aka~bonster~aka~bon in IRC

Response:

Hi Bonnie,I remember you posting and have missed them.Welcome back.I don.t post much.I have taken prozac for four years and helps obsessions greatly but I still need wellbutrin and zyprexa to keep stable.Hope you feel better.Hang in there.  Carolyn

Response:

Hi Bonnie,I remember you posting and have missed them.Welcome back.I don.t post much.I have taken prozac for four years and helps obsessions greatly but I still need wellbutrin and zyprexa to keep stable.Hope you feel better.Hang in there.  Carolyn

Thanks Carolyn: I have been so out of whack lately, I was wondering how good Prozac is. Anyway, take care and don’t be a stranger, and I’ll try not to either. lol

Response:

Hi All: I know that it’s been awhile since I’ve posted, hope nobody forgot me. My p/doc switched a/d. I was taking Zoloft, 200mgs a day. and now she has me on Prozac. Does anyone have any input on this? I have been on a real bad rollercoaster ride and I damn near fell out of the car! I have had the nastiest mood swing lately. Man! Hope to hear that everyone is doing well, and I’ll try not to stay away so long. Thanks everyone.

Dear Bonnie, It is so good to hear from you. We missed you. And no you weren’t forgotten! I did take Prozac and a host of other ADs, Unfortunately they either triggered a mania or else did nothing at all. So now we have forgone all ADs and are attempting combination terapy (Neuontin and Topomax) for better control of my cycling. I take Zyprexa when I am dydsphoric and it has been effective. Please keep on posting~ Yours, Lynda Reach beyond your grasp!

Response:

Is anyone able tell me how the Depakote/Prozac combo work in a M/D patient with an anger disorder? I hae heard good things, but still wary…..Thank you for your help.

Response:

Is anyone able tell me how the Depakote/Prozac combo work in a M/D patient with an anger disorder? I hae heard good things, but still wary…..Thank you for your help.

There’s no easy answer here. We are all Guinea pigs and each has her or his own body chemistry with which to deal. Therapy on top of meds could help with the rage. Good luck. dp

Response:

Hi and Welcome to ASDM, Thanks for posting here. Is anyone able tell me how the Depakote/Prozac combo work in a M/D patient with an anger disorder? I hae heard good things, but still wary…..Thank you for your help.

I took that med combo for awhile although I did not have specific anger issues at the time. For me, the Prozac induced dysphoria and the Depakote did not prevent my cycling. I hope some can share their experiences with this combo and anger. Peace, — Lynda

Response:

Prozac has worked on me when everything else failed. The only side effect I’ve had is weight gain (a small price to pay for sanity). But it is an individual thing. Like lithium. It works for some, but it almost killed me. Good day, Richard

Response:

Hiya … I was interested to see your reference re: weight gain on Prozac … I experienced the same thing however my pdoc insists it’s not the Prozac causing weight gain because it is supposedly a ’stimulant’ … we’ve been having this argument for months now … so I was interested to hear someone else with the same side effect … seems we are in the minority … but the Prozac does/did work for me and the weight gain seems under control now that I also take Neurontin …

Prozac has worked on me when everything else failed. The only side effect I’ve had is weight gain (a small price to pay for sanity). But it is an individual thing. Like lithium. It works for some, but it almost killed me. Good day, Richard

Response:

Question:

Hi Jim,     When I lived in the City I saw an excellent pdoc. Her name is Dr. Lauren Gorman, she was at Central Park West. Just wanted to mention a positive Pdoc in the Crazy Crazy City … hummingbrd

Response:

there are  many great doctors in NYC…VERY inexpensive is this place: http://www.nyspi.cpmc.columbia.edu/ Located as part of Columbia,they  offer the newest ideas and most openminded help! Offen for free! ALSO: when I lived on Wooster in  TriBeCa, I often had to work hard to feel clean,bright,special…one of my favorite things to do was the Met. of Art another was to pack a beautiful lunch and  take the ferry to  Statue of Liberty Park…a national Park that over looks a beautiful skyline and ocean scenery,take no alcohol,maybe peaceful tapes and ood food!!Ellis Island gets more crowds, the land around the statue is a delite!maryg Hi Jim,     When I lived in the City I saw an excellent pdoc. Her name is Dr. Lauren Gorman, she was at Central Park West. Just wanted to mention a positive Pdoc in the Crazy Crazy City … hummingbrd

Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

Hi Jim, So it’s Saturday morning and I have a talk therapy appointment at 11. Went to the hospital yesterday to see my psychiatrist, and toughed out the (very) brief meeting with him, not wanting to appear too needy. I’ve been feeling very very crazy & suicidal all week and on Wednesday we upped my Effexor dose to 300mg per day.

Are you still taking Depakote? I had prepared a long logical argument with graphs to convince him that the antidepressant side effects were actually causing more depression than they were treating, but he wanted to try more instead of less (I suggested sliding down from 225mg to 150mg). OK. One of my past bad habits has been becoming so upset & mistrustful of my mental health caregivers that I just bail out. I’m trying to trust this young guy (I’ve been taking SSRIs longer than he’s prescribing them). I think this 300mg dose is starting to undercut the good effects of the Depakote (1250mg).

It may be….I guess only time will tell. Has he considered the possibility of adding a 2nd adjunct MS to the Depakote? But then I had to deal with the billing process and the Medicaid office and the damn back & forth (I’m broke & have no money so the clinic will offer me a sliding scale, but because I need meds I applied for Medicaid, but because I applied for Medicaid the clinic won’t offer me a sliding scale and I won’t find out for 2 weeks whether I’ve been approved for Medicaid und so weiter). It was real bad, very Stanislaw Lem.

The bureaucratic run around is so frustrating….and IMO unnecessary. This is a stressor you definitely don’t need (nor does anyone for that matter)!! I feel like I’m failing, like I’ve failed, like there is nothing ahead of me but decline. I’ve applied for SS Disability but have been denied once and the case is up for review. I haven’t paid rent yet this month, and although my sister has offered financial support, I can’t bring myself to actually avail myself of her help.

Please accept her offer. She wants to help and you can use assistance right now. When I first checked out this newsgroup, I saw a very long and angry rant about (text in quotes roughly from memory) "whiners who expect a handout…should get up off their butts and go out and work for a living…" or something to that effect.

Some of us can, and some cannot…through no fault of our own. I have an internal Republican who also says that kind of stuff to me all day long. He’s also an adamant Social Darwinist who tells me that if I don’t have money I’m worthless and that I should just get off the planet.

You are NOT worthless Jim. Just try to let that thought go!!! I dunno. My history is pretty checkered, but I did manage to keep various jobs for about 27 years. My last job was a vice-presidency. I would really like to get back to work sometime soon, but I feel so sick all the time now…this has been the worst 5 years of my life. SSD would provide a little cushion so I could eat better, not worry so much about turning into one of the myriad homeless, and get back on my feet and put myself back into the world.

I do hope you recieve it soon. Most of the time I think suicide is my only option. I’m so tired of all the pain I live with and I can’t imagine things ever getting any better. Maybe I am just a drain on the resources of others and getting out of everyone’s way would be for the best. If only I could just stop my heart….

I share similar sentiments Jim. I’m so tired of the "med go round." It is neverending. I am filled with hoplessness too <sigh. Mostly what I’m doing is just enduring. Plodding through another miserable day. No suicide, just torture. I have no other tools…. Sorry for the long rant.

Please never apologize for sharing your feelings with us. That is why we exist here. You are a worthwhile person…please  try not to succumb to the negative tapes in your head. I will keep you in my thoughts and prayers. (((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((Jim)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))) Yours,

Response:

So it’s Saturday morning and I have a talk therapy appointment at 11. Went to the hospital yesterday to see my psychiatrist, and toughed out the (very) brief meeting with him, not wanting to appear too needy. I’ve been feeling very very crazy & suicidal all week and on Wednesday we upped my Effexor dose to 300mg per day. I had prepared a long logical argument with graphs to convince him that the antidepressant side effects were actually causing more depression than they were treating, but he wanted to try more instead of less (I suggested sliding down from 225mg to 150mg). OK. One of my past bad habits has been becoming so upset & mistrustful of my mental health caregivers that I just bail out. I’m trying to trust this young guy (I’ve been taking SSRIs longer than he’s prescribing them). I think this 300mg dose is starting to undercut the good effects of the Depakote (1250mg). But then I had to deal with the billing process and the Medicaid office and the damn back & forth (I’m broke & have no money so the clinic will offer me a sliding scale, but because I need meds I applied for Medicaid, but because I applied for Medicaid the clinic won’t offer me a sliding scale and I won’t find out for 2 weeks whether I’ve been approved for Medicaid und so weiter). It was real bad, very Stanislaw Lem. I feel like I’m failing, like I’ve failed, like there is nothing ahead of me but decline. I’ve applied for SS Disability but have been denied once and the case is up for review. I haven’t paid rent yet this month, and although my sister has offered financial support, I can’t bring myself to actually avail myself of her help. When I first checked out this newsgroup, I saw a very long and angry rant about (text in quotes roughly from memory) "whiners who expect a handout…should get up off their butts and go out and work for a living…" or something to that effect. I have an internal Republican who also says that kind of stuff to me all day long. He’s also an adamant Social Darwinist who tells me that if I don’t have money I’m worthless and that I should just get off the planet. I dunno. My history is pretty checkered, but I did manage to keep various jobs for about 27 years. My last job was a vice-presidency. I would really like to get back to work sometime soon, but I feel so sick all the time now…this has been the worst 5 years of my life. SSD would provide a little cushion so I could eat better, not worry so much about turning into one of the myriad homeless, and get back on my feet and put myself back into the world. Most of the time I think suicide is my only option. I’m so tired of all the pain I live with and I can’t imagine things ever getting any better. Maybe I am just a drain on the resources of others and getting out of everyone’s way would be for the best. If only I could just stop my heart…. Mostly what I’m doing is just enduring. Plodding through another miserable day. No suicide, just torture. I have no other tools…. Sorry for the long rant. Jim

Response:

Question:

Where do I find veterinarian supply companies?   Maybe I’m being lazy here, but if you know I’d appreciate it. I’ve been to farm supply companies but don’t remember seeing tryptophan.  But then I was there for antibiotics myself. (worked great too!!) Thanks, dn

snipped for brevity – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – LT is available in 100 g. or larger quantities from veterinary suppliers, at a cost substantially less than prescription LT, though still more than the OTC product once cost. Veterinary LT is molecularly identical to the tryptophan we are interested in here, and purity and quality control are probably higher than most old OTC products. One caveat: if you are taking a SSRI (Prozac, Paxil, Zoloft, Effexor) antidepressent, concurrent LT use is strongly contradicated, as taking both together can produce the potentially lethal ’serotonin syndrome,’ due to toxic levels of 5-HT in the body. –Will

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Where do I find veterinarian supply companies?   Maybe I’m being lazy here, but if you know I’d appreciate it. I’ve been to farm supply companies but don’t remember seeing tryptophan.  But then I was there for antibiotics myself. (worked great too!!) Thanks, dn snipped for brevity LT is available in 100 g. or larger quantities from veterinary suppliers, at a cost substantially less than prescription LT, though still more than the OTC product once cost. Veterinary LT is molecularly identical to the tryptophan we are interested in here, and purity

There is a mail-order souce in Tucson, I don’t know their name. Check in alt.support.depression, or sci.med.pharmacy. –Will

Response:

snipped for brevity LT is available in 100 g. or larger quantities from veterinary suppliers, at a cost substantially less than prescription LT, though still more than the OTC product once cost. Veterinary LT is molecularly identical to the tryptophan we are interested in here, and purity There is a mail-order souce in Tucson, I don’t know their name. Check in alt.support.depression, or sci.med.pharmacy. –Will

Please also come have a look at our site for this product. Be Well. QHI — Medicines For The Modern Mainstream http://www.qhi.co.uk

Response:

                         The FDA Ban of                     L-Tryptophan:  Politics,                       Profits and Prozac1*                   By Dean Wolfe Manders, Ph.D.                  Copyright, All Rights Reserved      In the fall of 1989, the FDA recalled L-Tryptophan, an amino acid nutritional supplement, stating that it caused a rare and deadly flu-like condition (Eosinophilia-Myalgia Syndrome — EMS). On March 22, 1990, the FDA banned the public sale dietary of L- Tryptophan completely. This ban continues today.      On March 26, 1990, Newsweek featured a lead article praising the virtues of the anti-depressant drug Prozac. Its multi-color cover displayed a floating, gigantic green and white capsule of Prozac with the caption: "Prozac: A Breakthrough Drug for Depression."      The fact that the FDA ban of L-Tryptophan and the Newsweek Prozac cover story occurred within four days of each other went unnoticed by both the media and the public. Yet, to those who understand the effective properties of L-Tryptophan and Prozac, the concurrence seems "unbelievably coincidental." The link here is the brain neurotransmitter serotonin — a biochemical nerve signal conductor. The action of Prozac and L-Tryptophan are both involved with serotonin, but in totally different ways.      Elevated levels of serotonin in the body often result in the relief of depression, as well as substantial reduction in pain sensitivity, anxiety and stress. Prozac, as well as other new anti- depressant drugs such as Paxil and Zoloft, attempt to enhance levels of serotonin by working on whatever amounts of it already exist in the body (these drugs are known as selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors). None of these drugs, however, produce serotonin. In contrast, ingested L-Tryptophan acts to produce serotonin, even in individuals who generate little serotonin of their own. The most effective way to elevate levels of serotonin would be to use a serotonin producer rather than a serotonin enhancer.      The continuing FDA public ban of L-Tryptophan prevents popular access to this most effective serotonin producer. The millions of Americans who for decades safely had relied upon L-Tryptophan to relieve depression, anxiety and PMS, as well as to control pain and induce natural sleep, have been forced elsewhere for solutions. Routinely, such solutions are pharmaceutical in nature: people are forced to use either often highly addictive, expensive, and some- times dangerous drugs like Xanax, Valium, Halcion, Dalmane, Co- deine, Anafranil, Prozac, and others, or, simply suffer.      Present FDA public policy maintains that L-Tryptophan is an untested, unapproved and hazardous drug. The analytical work done a few years ago by the Centers for Disease Control and the Mayo Clinic, research which traced the fall 1989 outbreak of the serious flu-like condition to contaminants found in batches of L-Tryptophan made by the Japanese company Showa Denko, has not convinced the FDA to allow L-Tryptophan back on the market. This decision is based primarily on the research of FDA and NIMH scientists who state that L-Tryptophan itself, irrespective of contaminants, is a dangerous substance. Other university-based research scientists disagree with these findings.      The public availability of L-Tryptophan is too important an issue only to be argued and shrouded within a scientific debate that remains, ultimately, mystifying to the vast majority of Americans. There are many obvious facts worthy of public attention, and public concern. For example, consider the following:      ~ On February 9, 1993, a United States government patent (#5185157) was issued to use L-Tryptophan to treat, and cure EMS, the very same deadly flu-like condition which prompted the FDA to take L-Tryptophan off the market in 1989.      ~ Notwithstanding its public ban and import alert on L- Tryptophan, the FDA today allows Ajinomoto U.S.A. the right to import from Japan human-use L-Tryptophan.  Distributed from the Ajinomoto plant in Raleigh, North Carolina, the L-Tryptophan is then sold to, and through, a network of compounding pharmacies across the United States. Purchased by individuals only under a physician’s order, L-Tryptophan emerges here as a new prescription drug in the serotonin marketplace; one hundred 500 mg capsules cost about $75.00, approximately five times more than if they were sold as a dietary supplement.      Since the FDA holds the political mandate and power of a public regulatory agency established, ostensibly, to protect people from raw corporate interests in drug production and distribution, the actions of the FDA in concert with Ajinomoto U.S.A. are illumi- nating. By publicly banning L-Tryptophan from its dietary supple- ment status and price, while allowing L-Tryptophan to be sold as a high-priced prescription drug, the naked duplicity of FDA L- Tryptophan policy is revealed.      ~ During and after the 1989 EMS outbreak, the FDA did not totally ban the use of L-Tryptophan in humans — then, as today, the FDA has granted the pharmaceutical industry the protected right to use L-Tryptophan in hospital settings.  Manufactured by Abbott Laboratories, the amino acid injectable solutions Aminosyn and Aminosyn II contain as much as 200 mg of L-Tryptophan.  (Moreover, L-Tryptophan has never been removed from baby food produced and sold within the United States.)      ~ While the FDA has banned the public sale and use of safe, non-contaminated, dietary supplement L-Tryptophan for people, the United States Department of Agriculture still sanctions the legal sale and use of non-contaminated L-Tryptophan for animals.  Today, as in the past, feed grade L-Tryptophan continues to be used as a nutritional and bulk feed additive by the commercial hog and chicken farming industry.  Additionally, L-Tryptophan is now available for use by veterinarians in caring for horses and pets.   ~ Outside of the United States, in countries such as Canada, the Netherlands, Germany, England, and others, L-Tryptophan is widely used. Nowhere, have any serious or widespread health problems occurred.      At bottom, the FDA public ban of safe, non-contaminated L- Tryptophan is uneven, expensive, and biased in favor of the phar- maceutical industry. The FDA proscription effectively awards billions of dollars in profits to pharmaceutical companies and their suppliers in the same proportion as it adds billions of unnecessary dollars to the nation’s already bloated health care expenditures.      On June 15, 1993, the FDA Dietary Supplement Task Force published a report on the work it had been doing in the area of developing FDA policy around nutritional supplements. On page two, the report admits, "The Task Force considered various issues in its deliberations, including… what steps are necessary to ensure that the existence of dietary supplements on the market does not act as a disincentive for drug development."      In this case, the FDA has succeeded in carrying out its stated policy goal. With competition from publicly available L-Tryptophan removed, the rapidly expanding market in prescription serotonin drugs — now among them L-Tryptophan itself — contains no major "disincentives" for the massive accumulation of pharmaceutical industry profits.      It is now time for appropriate congressional committees to review openly and aggressively the entire matter of L-Tryptophan. This will provide a needed forum where political, corporate, and scientific issues of FDA L-Tryptophan regulatory policy may be addressed. There exists ample precedent for such hearings: in the 1980’s and early 1990’s, for example, such investigations uncovered FDA favoritism in the approval of generic drugs and the bribery of FDA officials.      The story of L-Tryptophan illustrates a sad and perverse picture of the politics and priorities of public health in America: A safe, dietary-supplement serotonin producer is publicly unavailable to people, while daily fed to animals by corporate agribusiness.  A drug patent is approved to use L-Tryptophan to cure the very condition the FDA claims it caused.  And, while publicly exclaiming that L-Tryptophan is a dangerous and untested drug, the FDA, more quietly, allows human-use L-Tryptophan to be imported, and then marketed and sold by the pharmaceutical industry.       To allow the FDA ban of L-Tryptophan to continue unreviewed and uninvestigated condemns millions of Americans to unnecessary financial expenditures and needless suffering.      1.  This article appeared in Social Policy, Vol. 26, No. 2, Winter 1995.  Dean Wolfe Manders is a senior lecturer in humanities and sciences at the California College of Arts and Crafts, Oakland/San Francisco.  He has lectured and done extensive research on the medical politics of L-Tryptophan.      *Blazing Tattles, June 96.  Responses to the above article may be quoted in future issues unless writer explicitly requests otherwise.  For information about Blazing Tattles send inquiry to: Tattles at P.O. Box 1073, Half Moon Bay, CA 94019.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yet, to those who understand the effective properties of L-Tryptophan and Prozac, the concurrence seems "unbelievably coincidental." The link here is the brain neurotransmitter serotonin — a biochemical nerve signal conductor. The action of Prozac and L-Tryptophan are both involved with serotonin, but in totally different ways.      Elevated levels of serotonin in the body often result in the relief of depression, as well as substantial reduction in pain sensitivity, anxiety and stress. Prozac, as well as other new anti- depressant drugs such as Paxil and Zoloft, attempt to enhance levels of serotonin by working on whatever amounts of it already exist in the body (these drugs are known as selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors). None of these drugs, however, produce serotonin. In contrast, ingested L-Tryptophan acts to produce serotonin, even in individuals who generate little serotonin of their own. The most effective way to elevate levels of serotonin would be to use a serotonin producer rather than a serotonin enhancer.

Agreed that SSRIs and LTryptophan both work on serotonin. I have used both with good results. The distinction needs to be made that some depressions are more neurologic, others more hormonal or enzymatic. In cases of the former, SSRIs generally work much better, and in the latter, LT works better. I also agree that the continuing FDA ban looks suspicious, and it ought to be lifted immediately. LT is available in 100 g. or larger quantities from veterinary suppliers, at a cost substantially less than prescription LT, though still more than the OTC product once cost. Veterinary LT is molecularly identical to the tryptophan we are interested in here, and purity and quality control are probably higher than most old OTC products. One caveat: if you are taking a SSRI (Prozac, Paxil, Zoloft, Effexor) antidepressent, concurrent LT use is strongly contradicated, as taking both together can produce the potentially lethal ’serotonin syndrome,’ due to toxic levels of 5-HT in the body. –Will

Response: