Question:

Generic Cadd is a very good program IMHO.  The latest and supposedly the last version is 6.1.  It is just a tad nicer but either one is good.

Unfortunately what I think is good may not suit you but it does whatever I want very well. If you know where to get additional copies please let me know. ernie fisch

I agree this is a very good program.  I have Generic Cadd 5.0 and never felt the need to upgrade.  It’s a very powerful 2D drafting program not aimed at woodworking specifically.  It’s compatible with Autocad since Autodesk makes both.  The products are described on the web at: <http://www.autodesk.com/prod/prod.htm Mark P.

Response:

Does anyone have any info on Generic Cadd ver6.0 by Autodesk,preferably whether it is good or bad?Any suggestions on a good cadd program?

Generic Cadd is a very good program IMHO.  The latest and supposedly the last version is 6.1.  It is just a tad nicer but either one is good.  Unfortunately what I think is good may not suit you but it does whatever I want very well.  If you know where to get additional copies please let me know. ernie fisch

Response:

Does anyone have any info on Generic Cadd ver6.0 by Autodesk,preferably whether it is good or bad?Any suggestions on a good cadd program? Generic Cadd is a very good program IMHO. … Jeroen

        When Generic Cadd was bought and then abandoned by Autodesk, its authors bolted and have formed a new company which now makes a highly regarded follow up product "Visual CAD".  This new product will read your old Generic Cadd drawings.  The makers have a home page on the web at http://www.neca.com/~wahoo/viscadd.html. Steve Dettinger

Response:

Does anyone have any info on Generic Cadd ver6.0 by Autodesk,preferably whether it is good or bad?Any suggestions on a good cadd program? David White

David, Just went through the CAD program choice loop and wound up with DrawingBoard by Ashlar.  It has many very interesting features. Check out the trial version and the demo available at: http://www.drawingboard.com I tried several and this one is the best all around and easiest to use. Good luck, — Charlie

Response:

The programmers that wrote Generic CAD left Autodesk and are putting out a CAD called Visual CADD. It recognizes Generic CAD files. They can be located at: http://www.neca.com/~wahoo/viscadd.html Dan Hogan

Response:

Does anyone have any info on Generic Cadd ver6.0 by Autodesk,preferably whether it is good or bad?Any suggestions on a good cadd program? David White

I really think it is a pretty good program.  Too bad Autodesk bought it.  It was a really good product with good support, newsletter and stuff.  I heard that the original developers have a new CAD program out but have forgotten the name of the current resurrection. David

Response:

Does anyone have any info on Generic Cadd ver6.0 by Autodesk,preferably whether it is good or bad?Any suggestions on a good cadd program?

I have been using Generic CADD since version 4.0 and upgraded to v 6.0 as soon as I discovered it was available about 2 1/2 years ago. Compared to other CADD programs, whether DOS or Windows based,  I have found GC to be the most user friendly.  AutoCad is good, and damn well should be considering the $2500.00 price tag that accompanies it, however it’s definately overkill for strictly furniture or the like drawings. As mentioned in another response, GC 6.0 isn’t dynamic when it envolves hatching, meaning that if you were to strech or shrink a given area, whaterver hatch is in that area doesn’t shrink or grow with the change.  Other than this one glitch, I cannot think of another shortcoming. The command line structure is by far better than utilizing the menus. Although, you could successfully complete a drawing without using commands, it makes for a long day by not doing so.  After a couple of weeks at the helm of your computer and playing with GC 6.0, you will quickly learn 90% of the 2 letter commands.  The remaining 10% are not used very frequently and when needed they can be accessed by using the cheat card.  The CADD engine recognizes when a command has been entered and immediately executes that command. As far as accuracy is concerned, you are able to set the parameters to seven decimals.  When using fractions as the base measurement, you can set to 1/64th. Overall, I would rate the performace and user-ability of GC 6.0 a strong 9. Cheers, This Q&A has been sent to http://www.shivasys.com/hbk and http://www.cnl.com.au/~hbk for inclusion in what will soon be the world’s most comprehnsive FAQ on every known woodworking topic. — Joe Known on IRC as "Woodchips"

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Ignoer the address below. I don’t have the foggiest idea how that got entered. Dan Hogan

Dan Hogan

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Does anyone have any info on Generic Cadd ver6.0 by Autodesk,preferably whether it is good or bad?Any suggestions on a good cadd program? David White

David,      Generic CADD 6.0 is an excellent  _DOS_ cadd program.     Easy to learn and use.    BUT…  Autodesk is not continuing developement of the software.    Basically, it’s a dead product.      Generic CADD was originally written by Generic Software, which was purchased by Autodesk a number of years ago.   The writters then transfer to the employ of Autodesk, only to be let go just 2 years ago.    Now those same creative people have developed a new Cadd program that uses much of the same feel (and programmability) of Generic in a program called Visual CADD.    The new company is Numera Software and is growing quite nicely.    They have both a 16-bit windows version as well as their new 32-bit version available.      If you would like additional information, suggest you try :                     http://www.numera.com      You won’t be sorry.                                      Bob                             (a satisfied VC user)

Response:

Does anyone have any info on Generic Cadd ver6.0 by Autodesk,preferably whether it is good or bad?Any suggestions on a good cadd program? David White

I have it and use it. It’s one of the best cad programs around, and the experts agree. Unfortunately they no longer make it because they put their emphasis on Auto cad lite. Very easy to learn and extremely versatile.

Response:

Does anyone have any info on Generic Cadd ver6.0 by Autodesk,preferably whether it is good or bad?Any suggestions on a good cadd program? David White

Response:

Does anyone have any info on Generic Cadd ver6.0 by Autodesk,preferably whether it is good or bad?Any suggestions on a good cadd program? Generic Cadd is a very good program IMHO.  The latest and supposedly the last version is 6.1.  It is just a tad nicer but either one is good.  Unfortunately what I think is good may not suit you but it does whatever I want very well.  If you know where to get additional copies please let me know. ernie fisch

I use Generic Cadd 6.0 for furniture designs, for fantasizing about my house, and for drawing technical illustrations for articles that I write when occasionally doing my real job. For 2 dimensional stuff, I think it is fantastic. It can be driven either by menus with a mouse or by (occasionally weird) 2 letter combinations. I find myself using the 2 letter commands most of the time (very fast), and the mouse for the less often used commands. For a program in this price range it has surprisingly powerful features, including multiple windows, multiple undos (the code for this is OO, which I think is cute), and fairly powerful selection tools. A frustrating feature is that "hatches" aren’t dynamic (if you change the size of a wall, the bricks don’t automatically cover more space). Maybe 6.1 fixes this?         About 2 years ago, I tried most of the windows based stuff, including autocad light, turbo cad, and a few others whose names I can’t remember. After a few months, I was back to GCadd. The comparison between GCadd and most of the windows based versions is similar to that between WP5.1 and word for windows. WP5.1 was stable as a rock, could do almost anything if you knew how, and you could always get under the hood and tell it exactly what you want. It was also fast, both in terms of demands on the computer, and once you learned it, in terms of use. Word is easier to learn, and tries to make things easy for you. However, the trade off is that even when you are proficient, it can be very slow for anything fancy, and god help you if it thinks you want something a little different than you actually do. Autocad light seems to manage to combine the worst of both worlds, although I must admit to having given it a fairly limited test, and maybe after a few months, I would have loved it. My impression is that Autodesk is trying to convert its GCadd users to AutoCad light, and so the upgrade path is uncertain/non-existant. On the other hand, if I remember correctly, Autodesk announced this before 6.1 came out, so maybe they have reconsidered. Hope this helps. Jeroen

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Question:

I was on oral prednisone for about 3 months, 40MG with a slow taper, I found I had bruising problems, which declined as I got down below 10MG. I also use Pulmicort, and before that, Flovent, and have seen no problems with those alone. As has been pointed out, people vary in their sensitivity. Boyd — "The cure for boredom is curiosity. There is no cure for curiosity." (Ellen Parr- author) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi does anyone know if my medications (Ventolin- Seratide 250- Uniphyllin) has anything to do with the bad bruises that keep appearing. I don’t even know why I am getting them as I don’t really knock myself or anything. Just wondered if they were related. Thanks in advance for any replies.

Response:

I also get lots of bruises.  I think it also depends on the person.  Some people are more sensitive to the side effects. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Any steroid can lead to bruising. When I am on Prednisone my legs look like I have been kicked by Jackie Chan! Denise Hi does anyone know if my medications (Ventolin- Seratide 250- Uniphyllin) has anything to do with the bad bruises that keep appearing. I don’t even know why I am getting them as I don’t really knock myself or anything. Just wondered if they were related. Thanks in advance for any replies.

Response:

I have noticed since my son started Pulmicort that he bruises much more easily.  He had a nasty insect bite on his leg that left a black and blue mark for weeks.  His doctor said that inhaled steroids do that sometimes.  But the kid’s not wheezing anymore. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi does anyone know if my medications (Ventolin- Seratide 250- Uniphyllin) has anything to do with the bad bruises that keep appearing. I don’t even know why I am getting them as I don’t really knock myself or anything. Just wondered if they were related. Thanks in advance for any replies.

Response:

Any steroid can lead to bruising. When I am on Prednisone my legs look like I have been kicked by Jackie Chan! Denise – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi does anyone know if my medications (Ventolin- Seratide 250- Uniphyllin) has anything to do with the bad bruises that keep appearing. I don’t even know why I am getting them as I don’t really knock myself or anything. Just wondered if they were related. Thanks in advance for any replies.

Response:

Hi does anyone know if my medications (Ventolin- Seratide 250- Uniphyllin) has anything to do with the bad bruises that keep appearing. I don’t even know why I am getting them as I don’t really knock myself or anything. Just wondered if they were related. Thanks in advance for any replies.

Response:

Hello, I’ve been lurking for quit some time now. I’ve had diabetes for 3 years and was taking oral medications. Now my doctor has put me on insulin, this is my question. Is any one else that uses insulin’s  tummy as bruised as mine is? What am I doing wrong? It doesn’t hurt. It just looks horrible. Also sometimes a little bubble of insulin seeps out of my skin is this normal? I always hate to call the doctor for every little problem, so I was hoping some one could answer these questions for me.

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Gale, I get bruising from time to time. I can’t explain why it happens. I have heard it could be from pinching a to small of an area.It doesn’t matter where I shoot I can get bruising. A bubble does appear sometime right after I shoot but it is nothing to be concerned about. keep the faith rik — Padded room with a view                                    RWC3

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Hi Gale., I did have brusing when I first started, came from shoving the needle in to quickly for me.. Once I let the needle fall into the skin then slowly push it the rest of the way, the problems stopped. For *me* I found shooting at an angle wasn’t an option, I go straight in. But as with this.. its a YMMV also, the little bubble is normal, not enough to worry about, keep the needle inserted a extra couple seconds so it all gets dispensed.. should end that problem also. Good luck — RK [T1 that was smarter then her previous Doctors!][dx'd 5/00][Lantus Lover w/Novolog] http://www.diabeticnet.com – Main alt.support.diabetes website – Be fooled by no other imitations! http://www.zerolimit.net/files/zl-mirc.exe (#diabeticnet chatroom software)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, I’ve been lurking for quit some time now. I’ve had diabetes for 3 years and was taking oral medications. Now my doctor has put me on insulin, this is my question. Is any one else that uses insulin’s  tummy as bruised as mine is? What am I doing wrong? It doesn’t hurt. It just looks horrible. Also sometimes a little bubble of insulin seeps out of my skin is this normal? I always hate to call the doctor for every little problem, so I was hoping some one could answer these questions for me.

Response:

press down on the injection site for 10 seconds after your shot — kate

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, I’ve been lurking for quit some time now. I’ve had diabetes for 3 years and was taking oral medications. Now my doctor has put me on insulin, this is my question. Is any one else that uses insulin’s  tummy as bruised as mine is? What am I doing wrong? It doesn’t hurt. It just looks horrible. Also sometimes a little bubble of insulin seeps out of my skin is this normal? I always hate to call the doctor for every little problem, so I was hoping some one could answer these questions for me.

Response:

Hello, I’ve been lurking for quit some time now. I’ve had diabetes for 3 years and was taking oral medications. Now my doctor has put me on insulin, this is my question. Is any one else that uses insulin’s  tummy as bruised as mine is? What am I doing wrong? It doesn’t hurt. It just looks horrible. Also sometimes a little bubble of insulin seeps out of my skin is this normal? I always hate to call the doctor for every little problem, so I was hoping some one could answer these questions for me.

Well, I did at first also a little. For one thing, inject the insulin slowly. As for the insulin seeping out, count to 10 or so before withdrawing. — Dave – 5:23:57 PM T2 – 8/98 Glucophage, U & H A 4th generation Diabetic – Davors Daily Aphorism: I have a speech impediment… my foot. — —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

press down on the injection site for 10 seconds after your shot — kate

Ten seconds is apparently the  correct time to hold the needle in place before *slowly* withdrawing. So say Novo and Lilly in their literature. Bruising is usually the result of just catching a blood vessel under the skin. So slow insertion and removal helps prevent damage to those vessels caused by too-fast movement. It’s just one of those things we all live with. I can go a fortnight without a bruise and then get three in a day. Ratty

Response:

Hello, I’ve been lurking for quit some time now. I’ve had diabetes for 3 years and was taking oral medications. Now my doctor has put me on insulin, this is my question. Is any one else that uses insulin’s  tummy as bruised as mine is? What am I doing wrong? It doesn’t hurt. It just looks horrible. Also sometimes a little bubble of insulin seeps out of my skin is this normal? I always hate to call the doctor for every little problem, so I was hoping some one could answer these questions for me.

If your stomach is the only place you are injecting then you are ignoring other good locations and not allowing your stomach area enough time to heal.  I found that by setting up and following an exact injection site rotation schedule that I eliminated most of the bruising.  You can inject in your upper arm, the closer to the back of it the better, your upper thighs and even around your back as far as you can reach.  I learned that by keening up against a door frame that I could either pull my upper arm tight or with a twist I could bunch up the skin and then inject using one hand.  The trick is to stay leaning up against the door frame until you remove the syringe.  It is akward at first but with a little practice it can be done in the dame amount of time that it takes to inject in the thigh or stomach area. By injecting in the upper arm on one side and then the stomach area on the same side and then the thigh and then switching sides and going back up to the arm and then starting over, you will allow enough time to heal between injections in the same area. The back flow of insulin from the injection is nothing to be concerned about.  It can be avoided by simply placing your fingertip directly on the injection site and applying pressure for a few seconds immediately after pulling the syringe out. Derek Type 1 since 1975 Minimed 508 Insulin Pump http://www.diabeticnet.com http://sweetblood.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org http://www.diabetesinterview.com http://www.zerolimit.net (irc server webpage for our chat room) #diabeticnet is the name of our IRC chat on zerolimit.net http://www.zerolimit.net/files/zl-mirc.exe  http://www.irchelp.org/irchelp/misc/webtv.html http://www.xs4all.nl/~ircle/  <–Ircle Mac IRC software http://www.ftc.gov/opa/2001/06/cureall.htm

Response:

Thank you all for the support, I will give it a try. It’s a good thing I don’t wear a bikini any more….lol…thanks you all have been great. Gale

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, I’ve been lurking for quit some time now. I’ve had diabetes for 3 years and was taking oral medications. Now my doctor has put me on insulin, this is my question. Is any one else that uses insulin’s  tummy as bruised as mine is? What am I doing wrong? It doesn’t hurt. It just looks horrible. Also sometimes a little bubble of insulin seeps out of my skin is this normal? I always hate to call the doctor for every little problem, so I was hoping some one could answer these questions for me.

Response:

<snip  I learned that by keening up against a door frame that I could either pull my upper arm tight or with a twist I could bunch up the skin and then inject using one hand.  The trick is to stay leaning up against the door frame until you remove the syringe.  It is akward at first but with a little practice it can be done in the dame amount of time that it takes to inject in the thigh or stomach area. <sniip i got this image of me doing this in a resturant just as my meal arrives. d.

I always used my stomach when injecting in restaurants. Derek Type 1 since 1975 Minimed 508 Insulin Pump http://www.diabeticnet.com http://sweetblood.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org http://www.diabetesinterview.com http://www.zerolimit.net (irc server webpage for our chat room) #diabeticnet is the name of our IRC chat on zerolimit.net http://www.zerolimit.net/files/zl-mirc.exe  http://www.irchelp.org/irchelp/misc/webtv.html http://www.xs4all.nl/~ircle/  <–Ircle Mac IRC software http://www.ftc.gov/opa/2001/06/cureall.htm

Response:

Has anyone experienced bruising after squeezing a pimple? If so, do you know how to treat it properly without it causing an infection? And why does this happen with some pimples and not others? Thanks! -Bobbi

Response:

:Has anyone experienced bruising after squeezing a pimple? : :If so, do you know how to treat it properly without it causing an :infection? :And why does this happen with some pimples and not others? You have bruised becuase you squeezed hard enough to burst fine blood vessels under the skin.  This was too hard and is probably resulting in causing more serious problems. Please go to a profesional skin care specialist and have them show you the proper way to extract them. Jeff :Thanks! :-Bobbi AAEA – American Aestheticians Education Association   (A non-profit professional organization dedicated to generic    and non-biased education, litigation and research for the    Esthetic and Beauty Care Service Provider Industries.)

Response:

: :Has anyone experienced bruising after squeezing a pimple?

: You have bruised becuase you squeezed hard enough to burst fine blood : vessels under the skin.  This was too hard and is probably resulting : in causing more serious problems. On rare occasion I have had a cyst bruise which I didn’t squeeze. It would do so after "hanging around" for a long time, neither getting better nor getting worse. Maybe this is a result of the stuff inside being "backed up,"  or "stuck." Val Butler

Response:

One should not squeeze pimples.  Bruising can lead to nodule formation and boil-like eruptions.  It usually makes matters worse in the medium to long-term, although it might appear cosmetically more attractive in the short-term. Cheers, Dr P M Lassoff London "Bake those donuts with extra grease This batch is for the Chief of Police"                          – The Pop-O-Pies

Response:

Has anyone experienced bruising after squeezing a pimple? If so, do you know how to treat it properly without it causing an infection? And why does this happen with some pimples and not others? Thanks! -Bobbi

Response:

:Has anyone experienced bruising after squeezing a pimple? : :If so, do you know how to treat it properly without it causing an :infection? :And why does this happen with some pimples and not others? You have bruised becuase you squeezed hard enough to burst fine blood vessels under the skin.  This was too hard and is probably resulting in causing more serious problems. Please go to a profesional skin care specialist and have them show you the proper way to extract them. Jeff :Thanks! :-Bobbi AAEA – American Aestheticians Education Association   (A non-profit professional organization dedicated to generic    and non-biased education, litigation and research for the    Esthetic and Beauty Care Service Provider Industries.)

Response:

: :Has anyone experienced bruising after squeezing a pimple?

: You have bruised becuase you squeezed hard enough to burst fine blood : vessels under the skin.  This was too hard and is probably resulting : in causing more serious problems. On rare occasion I have had a cyst bruise which I didn’t squeeze. It would do so after "hanging around" for a long time, neither getting better nor getting worse. Maybe this is a result of the stuff inside being "backed up,"  or "stuck." Val Butler

Response:

One should not squeeze pimples.  Bruising can lead to nodule formation and boil-like eruptions.  It usually makes matters worse in the medium to long-term, although it might appear cosmetically more attractive in the short-term. Cheers, Dr P M Lassoff London "Bake those donuts with extra grease This batch is for the Chief of Police"                          – The Pop-O-Pies

Response:

Kenneth, you state you have been or currently are on prednsoine. That should be the answer to the bruising problem. It generally takes some time to be affected, you did not state the # of milg. you are on, if it is a high dosage then it could set it off earlier then one who has been on a small dosage for a number of years. If you continue on pred. I would suggest a med. called FOLGARD it helps somewhat after a period of time. Check with your local druggist and or Dr. D.S.M. (DM Ret. US Govt. Int. Affairs)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – grapefruit ? What foods contain flavanoids? Bruising, without the slightest trauma, usually reflects thinning of the dermis. What ever you are taking for nutritional supplements…they are not working. It is   remedied quite easily by consuming a diet rich in flavanoids. Along with a basic  supplement regimen of Vitamin E, Vitamin C and Essential Fatty Acids. Ken.W  7 Years Med Free All of a sudden my arms, legs, and stomach are covered in bruises for no apparent reason. I have been moving house, but I didn’t do any of the heavy lifting or anything! So this seems really unusual for me. Has this happened to anyone else before? I have UC, have been taking Mesasal for 18months, Imuran for 13 months (the last 6 at the proper weight-based dose of 100mg/day), recently used Salofalk enemas (4g) in addition to the 12 Mesasal for one month, and have used Colifoam for about 6 or 7 months. I have always had low iron but am not taking any supplements, and I recently found out I already had osteopaenia 18months ago before I was diagnosed with UC and took steroids. Pretty scary for a 25 year old but apparently it is not uncommon in IBD patients. So I haven’t really started on any new medications that would explain these bruises, although perhaps by coincidence just as the bruises started appearing, I also experienced significant improvement in my UC, giving me hope that I am going into remission for the first time since diagnosed. Only 2 toilet trips a day for the last week or so! That is the first time I have been that "healthy" since I was on 50mg of pred. Anyone have any suggestions for me about what might be causing those bruises? Thanks, Amy Melbourne, Australia

Response:

grapefruit ?

****** Wouldn’t eating grapefruit  be  a  bad idea? Aside from the acidity I mean. m Wouldn’t the grapefruit  iinteract with any meds you’re takiing? Violet Tigress

Response:

 Vi Wouldn’t eating grapefruit  be  a  bad idea? Aside from the acidity I  Vi mean. m Wouldn’t the grapefruit  iinteract with any meds you’re  Vi takiing?  Vi Violet Tigress         For what it is worth, my wife has continued to eat grapefruit         and other citrus plus tomatoes through all her problems. She         claims that she sees no ill effects and the last time at the         doctor, he said if it doesnt bother than eat it.         Quite recently I read an article claiming that the effects of         grapefruit on the meds MAY not be as bad as first thought. What         is good for today is gonna kill ya tomorrow.  Ya cant win!!                         Art ___ Blue Wave/DOS v2.30

Response:

grapefruit ? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What foods contain flavanoids? Bruising, without the slightest trauma, usually reflects thinning of the dermis. What ever you are taking for nutritional supplements…they are not working. It is   remedied quite easily by consuming a diet rich in flavanoids. Along with a basic  supplement regimen of Vitamin E, Vitamin C and Essential Fatty Acids. Ken.W  7 Years Med Free All of a sudden my arms, legs, and stomach are covered in bruises for no apparent reason. I have been moving house, but I didn’t do any of the heavy lifting or anything! So this seems really unusual for me. Has this happened to anyone else before? I have UC, have been taking Mesasal for 18months, Imuran for 13 months (the last 6 at the proper weight-based dose of 100mg/day), recently used Salofalk enemas (4g) in addition to the 12 Mesasal for one month, and have used Colifoam for about 6 or 7 months. I have always had low iron but am not taking any supplements, and I recently found out I already had osteopaenia 18months ago before I was diagnosed with UC and took steroids. Pretty scary for a 25 year old but apparently it is not uncommon in IBD patients. So I haven’t really started on any new medications that would explain these bruises, although perhaps by coincidence just as the bruises started appearing, I also experienced significant improvement in my UC, giving me hope that I am going into remission for the first time since diagnosed. Only 2 toilet trips a day for the last week or so! That is the first time I have been that "healthy" since I was on 50mg of pred. Anyone have any suggestions for me about what might be causing those bruises? Thanks, Amy Melbourne, Australia

Response:

I saw my GP yesterday, and she ordered a whole lot of blood tests (they took 6 vials from me) – FBE, LFT, iron, etc. Hopefully that will shed some light on the problem. Will these tests tell me about my platelets? I hope so, because I heard somewhere that platelets should be checked when there is bruising. I’ll find out the results next week. Thanks for the suggestion Amy. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – All of a sudden my arms, legs, and stomach are covered in bruises for no apparent reason. Have you had your platelets checked recently?

Response:

What foods contain flavanoids? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Bruising, without the slightest trauma, usually reflects thinning of the dermis. What ever you are taking for nutritional supplements…they are not working. It is   remedied quite easily by consuming a diet rich in flavanoids. Along with a basic  supplement regimen of Vitamin E, Vitamin C and Essential Fatty Acids. Ken.W  7 Years Med Free All of a sudden my arms, legs, and stomach are covered in bruises for no apparent reason. I have been moving house, but I didn’t do any of the heavy lifting or anything! So this seems really unusual for me. Has this happened to anyone else before? I have UC, have been taking Mesasal for 18months, Imuran for 13 months (the last 6 at the proper weight-based dose of 100mg/day), recently used Salofalk enemas (4g) in addition to the 12 Mesasal for one month, and have used Colifoam for about 6 or 7 months. I have always had low iron but am not taking any supplements, and I recently found out I already had osteopaenia 18months ago before I was diagnosed with UC and took steroids. Pretty scary for a 25 year old but apparently it is not uncommon in IBD patients. So I haven’t really started on any new medications that would explain these bruises, although perhaps by coincidence just as the bruises started appearing, I also experienced significant improvement in my UC, giving me hope that I am going into remission for the first time since diagnosed. Only 2 toilet trips a day for the last week or so! That is the first time I have been that "healthy" since I was on 50mg of pred. Anyone have any suggestions for me about what might be causing those bruises? Thanks, Amy Melbourne, Australia

Response:

All of a sudden my arms, legs, and stomach are covered in bruises for no apparent reason.

Have you had your platelets checked recently?

Response:

I bruise more when taking Imuran or prednisone.  Sometimes all it takes is just pressing my skin up against a surface too hard (such as leaning it on a box, etc). Be well- Tracy CD class of ‘98 my homepage: http://home.talkcity.com/ParadiseDr/goodboie/index.html  : )  smile – it makes people wonder what you’re up to!

Response:

Another strange side-effect I had while on Imuran was bleeding.  The tiniest scratch would cause awful bleeding and would take up to a half- hour to stop.  I work alot outside in my gardens and last summer, while on pred and Imuran, I had to carry a couple papertowels in my pocket as every time I turned around, I’d be bleeding from somewhere. Hugs,  Linda – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I bruise more when taking Imuran or prednisone.  Sometimes all it takes is just pressing my skin up against a surface too hard (such as leaning it on a box, etc). Be well- Tracy CD class of ‘98 my homepage: http://home.talkcity.com/ParadiseDr/goodboie/index.html  : )  smile – it makes people wonder what you’re up to!

Response:

Bruising, without the slightest trauma, usually reflects thinning of the dermis. What ever you are taking for nutritional supplements…they are not working. It is   remedied quite easily by consuming a diet rich in flavanoids. Along with a basic  supplement regimen of Vitamin E, Vitamin C and Essential Fatty Acids. Ken.W  7 Years Med Free

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – All of a sudden my arms, legs, and stomach are covered in bruises for no apparent reason. I have been moving house, but I didn’t do any of the heavy lifting or anything! So this seems really unusual for me. Has this happened to anyone else before? I have UC, have been taking Mesasal for 18months, Imuran for 13 months (the last 6 at the proper weight-based dose of 100mg/day), recently used Salofalk enemas (4g) in addition to the 12 Mesasal for one month, and have used Colifoam for about 6 or 7 months. I have always had low iron but am not taking any supplements, and I recently found out I already had osteopaenia 18months ago before I was diagnosed with UC and took steroids. Pretty scary for a 25 year old but apparently it is not uncommon in IBD patients. So I haven’t really started on any new medications that would explain these bruises, although perhaps by coincidence just as the bruises started appearing, I also experienced significant improvement in my UC, giving me hope that I am going into remission for the first time since diagnosed. Only 2 toilet trips a day for the last week or so! That is the first time I have been that "healthy" since I was on 50mg of pred. Anyone have any suggestions for me about what might be causing those bruises? Thanks, Amy Melbourne, Australia

Response:

Hi Amy, I have UC to and take prednisolone and mesalazine (same as mesasal). I find that everyfew months I will get tons of brusies coveing my arms and legs for a few weeks and then they just go. They are usually just little bruises but sometimes I find that they can be quite big too. Hope this helps Sarah

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – All of a sudden my arms, legs, and stomach are covered in bruises for no apparent reason. I have been moving house, but I didn’t do any of the heavy lifting or anything! So this seems really unusual for me. Has this happened to anyone else before? I have UC, have been taking Mesasal for 18months, Imuran for 13 months (the last 6 at the proper weight-based dose of 100mg/day), recently used Salofalk enemas (4g) in addition to the 12 Mesasal for one month, and have used Colifoam for about 6 or 7 months. I have always had low iron but am not taking any supplements, and I recently found out I already had osteopaenia 18months ago before I was diagnosed with UC and took steroids. Pretty scary for a 25 year old but apparently it is not uncommon in IBD patients. So I haven’t really started on any new medications that would explain these bruises, although perhaps by coincidence just as the bruises started appearing, I also experienced significant improvement in my UC, giving me hope that I am going into remission for the first time since diagnosed. Only 2 toilet trips a day for the last week or so! That is the first time I have been that "healthy" since I was on 50mg of pred. Anyone have any suggestions for me about what might be causing those bruises? Thanks, Amy Melbourne, Australia

Response:

  LOL! Hugs,  Linda – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Not if the horse was a good dancer! Debs Thanks Linda, so it might be the Imuran and it has finally kicked in! Being kicked in the thigh by a horse sounds PAINFUL. I had one step on my foot once, got a lovely looking bruise but that is to be expected! Amy. Hi Amy, I don’t bruise easily – no bruise even after being kicked in the thigh by a horse that didn’t want to go into the horsetrailer but while I was taking Imuran, I’d find bruises when I didn’t remember hitting anything.  I seemed to get alot on the backs of my hands and on my arms.  Since being off Imuran, I haven’t bruised at all. Hugs,  Linda All of a sudden my arms, legs, and stomach are covered in bruises for no apparent reason. I have been moving house, but I didn’t do any of the heavy lifting or anything! So this seems really unusual for me. Has this happened to anyone else before? I have UC, have been taking Mesasal for 18months, Imuran for 13 months (the last 6 at the proper weight-based dose of 100mg/day), recently used Salofalk enemas (4g) in addition to the 12 Mesasal for one month, and have used Colifoam for about 6 or 7 months. I have always had low iron but am not taking any supplements, and I recently found out I already had osteopaenia 18months ago before I was diagnosed with UC and took steroids. Pretty scary for a 25 year old but apparently it is not uncommon in IBD patients. So I haven’t really started on any new medications that would explain these bruises, although perhaps by coincidence just as the bruises started appearing, I also experienced significant improvement in my UC, giving me hope that I am going into remission for the first time since diagnosed. Only 2 toilet trips a day for the last week or so! That is the first time I have been that "healthy" since I was on 50mg of pred. Anyone have any suggestions for me about what might be causing those bruises? Thanks, Amy Melbourne, Australia

Response:

YW Amy  About two summers ago, a friend’s horse stepped on my pinky toe and I’m sure she broke it.  Nothing I did for it made it feel better except to wear my cowboy boots.  I sure looked kinda funny that summer with my shorts and cowboy boots everywhere I went, LOL!   Hugs,  Linda – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks Linda, so it might be the Imuran and it has finally kicked in! Being kicked in the thigh by a horse sounds PAINFUL. I had one step on my foot once, got a lovely looking bruise but that is to be expected! Amy. Hi Amy, I don’t bruise easily – no bruise even after being kicked in the thigh by a horse that didn’t want to go into the horsetrailer but while I was taking Imuran, I’d find bruises when I didn’t remember hitting anything.  I seemed to get alot on the backs of my hands and on my arms.  Since being off Imuran, I haven’t bruised at all. Hugs,  Linda All of a sudden my arms, legs, and stomach are covered in bruises for no apparent reason. I have been moving house, but I didn’t do any of the heavy lifting or anything! So this seems really unusual for me. Has this happened to anyone else before? I have UC, have been taking Mesasal for 18months, Imuran for 13 months (the last 6 at the proper weight-based dose of 100mg/day), recently used Salofalk enemas (4g) in addition to the 12 Mesasal for one month, and have used Colifoam for about 6 or 7 months. I have always had low iron but am not taking any supplements, and I recently found out I already had osteopaenia 18months ago before I was diagnosed with UC and took steroids. Pretty scary for a 25 year old but apparently it is not uncommon in IBD patients. So I haven’t really started on any new medications that would explain these bruises, although perhaps by coincidence just as the bruises started appearing, I also experienced significant improvement in my UC, giving me hope that I am going into remission for the first time since diagnosed. Only 2 toilet trips a day for the last week or so! That is the first time I have been that "healthy" since I was on 50mg of pred. Anyone have any suggestions for me about what might be causing those bruises? Thanks, Amy Melbourne, Australia

Response:

Not if the horse was a good dancer! Debs – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks Linda, so it might be the Imuran and it has finally kicked in! Being kicked in the thigh by a horse sounds PAINFUL. I had one step on my foot once, got a lovely looking bruise but that is to be expected! Amy. Hi Amy, I don’t bruise easily – no bruise even after being kicked in the thigh by a horse that didn’t want to go into the horsetrailer but while I was taking Imuran, I’d find bruises when I didn’t remember hitting anything.  I seemed to get alot on the backs of my hands and on my arms.  Since being off Imuran, I haven’t bruised at all. Hugs,  Linda All of a sudden my arms, legs, and stomach are covered in bruises for no apparent reason. I have been moving house, but I didn’t do any of the heavy lifting or anything! So this seems really unusual for me. Has this happened to anyone else before? I have UC, have been taking Mesasal for 18months, Imuran for 13 months (the last 6 at the proper weight-based dose of 100mg/day), recently used Salofalk enemas (4g) in addition to the 12 Mesasal for one month, and have used Colifoam for about 6 or 7 months. I have always had low iron but am not taking any supplements, and I recently found out I already had osteopaenia 18months ago before I was diagnosed with UC and took steroids. Pretty scary for a 25 year old but apparently it is not uncommon in IBD patients. So I haven’t really started on any new medications that would explain these bruises, although perhaps by coincidence just as the bruises started appearing, I also experienced significant improvement in my UC, giving me hope that I am going into remission for the first time since diagnosed. Only 2 toilet trips a day for the last week or so! That is the first time I have been that "healthy" since I was on 50mg of pred. Anyone have any suggestions for me about what might be causing those bruises? Thanks, Amy Melbourne, Australia

Response:

Thanks Linda, so it might be the Imuran and it has finally kicked in! Being kicked in the thigh by a horse sounds PAINFUL. I had one step on my foot once, got a lovely looking bruise but that is to be expected! Amy. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Amy, I don’t bruise easily – no bruise even after being kicked in the thigh by a horse that didn’t want to go into the horsetrailer but while I was taking Imuran, I’d find bruises when I didn’t remember hitting anything.  I seemed to get alot on the backs of my hands and on my arms.  Since being off Imuran, I haven’t bruised at all. Hugs,  Linda All of a sudden my arms, legs, and stomach are covered in bruises for no apparent reason. I have been moving house, but I didn’t do any of the heavy lifting or anything! So this seems really unusual for me. Has this happened to anyone else before? I have UC, have been taking Mesasal for 18months, Imuran for 13 months (the last 6 at the proper weight-based dose of 100mg/day), recently used Salofalk enemas (4g) in addition to the 12 Mesasal for one month, and have used Colifoam for about 6 or 7 months. I have always had low iron but am not taking any supplements, and I recently found out I already had osteopaenia 18months ago before I was diagnosed with UC and took steroids. Pretty scary for a 25 year old but apparently it is not uncommon in IBD patients. So I haven’t really started on any new medications that would explain these bruises, although perhaps by coincidence just as the bruises started appearing, I also experienced significant improvement in my UC, giving me hope that I am going into remission for the first time since diagnosed. Only 2 toilet trips a day for the last week or so! That is the first time I have been that "healthy" since I was on 50mg of pred. Anyone have any suggestions for me about what might be causing those bruises? Thanks, Amy Melbourne, Australia

Response:

Hi Amy, I don’t bruise easily – no bruise even after being kicked in the thigh by a horse that didn’t want to go into the horsetrailer but while I was taking Imuran, I’d find bruises when I didn’t remember hitting anything.  I seemed to get alot on the backs of my hands and on my arms.  Since being off Imuran, I haven’t bruised at all. Hugs,  Linda – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – All of a sudden my arms, legs, and stomach are covered in bruises for no apparent reason. I have been moving house, but I didn’t do any of the heavy lifting or anything! So this seems really unusual for me. Has this happened to anyone else before? I have UC, have been taking Mesasal for 18months, Imuran for 13 months (the last 6 at the proper weight-based dose of 100mg/day), recently used Salofalk enemas (4g) in addition to the 12 Mesasal for one month, and have used Colifoam for about 6 or 7 months. I have always had low iron but am not taking any supplements, and I recently found out I already had osteopaenia 18months ago before I was diagnosed with UC and took steroids. Pretty scary for a 25 year old but apparently it is not uncommon in IBD patients. So I haven’t really started on any new medications that would explain these bruises, although perhaps by coincidence just as the bruises started appearing, I also experienced significant improvement in my UC, giving me hope that I am going into remission for the first time since diagnosed. Only 2 toilet trips a day for the last week or so! That is the first time I have been that "healthy" since I was on 50mg of pred. Anyone have any suggestions for me about what might be causing those bruises? Thanks, Amy Melbourne, Australia

Response:

It seems, at least for me, that bruises just appear.  I have gotten them from just little bumps against furniture to anemia (a simple blood test can tell you if you are really low).  I find the skin reacts for some reason I really don’t understand myself and I have CD.  If you are real tired and the bruises are a lot contact your dr to be sure it’s ok.  UM MOM Susan

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – All of a sudden my arms, legs, and stomach are covered in bruises for no apparent reason. I have been moving house, but I didn’t do any of the heavy lifting or anything! So this seems really unusual for me. Has this happened to anyone else before? I have UC, have been taking Mesasal for 18months, Imuran for 13 months (the last 6 at the proper weight-based dose of 100mg/day), recently used Salofalk enemas (4g) in addition to the 12 Mesasal for one month, and have used Colifoam for about 6 or 7 months. I have always had low iron but am not taking any supplements, and I recently found out I already had osteopaenia 18months ago before I was diagnosed with UC and took steroids. Pretty scary for a 25 year old but apparently it is not uncommon in IBD patients. So I haven’t really started on any new medications that would explain these bruises, although perhaps by coincidence just as the bruises started appearing, I also experienced significant improvement in my UC, giving me hope that I am going into remission for the first time since diagnosed. Only 2 toilet trips a day for the last week or so! That is the first time I have been that "healthy" since I was on 50mg of pred. Anyone have any suggestions for me about what might be causing those bruises? Thanks, Amy Melbourne, Australia

Response:

All of a sudden my arms, legs, and stomach are covered in bruises for no apparent reason. I have been moving house, but I didn’t do any of the heavy lifting or anything! So this seems really unusual for me. Has this happened to anyone else before? I have UC, have been taking Mesasal for 18months, Imuran for 13 months (the last 6 at the proper weight-based dose of 100mg/day), recently used Salofalk enemas (4g) in addition to the 12 Mesasal for one month, and have used Colifoam for about 6 or 7 months. I have always had low iron but am not taking any supplements, and I recently found out I already had osteopaenia 18months ago before I was diagnosed with UC and took steroids. Pretty scary for a 25 year old but apparently it is not uncommon in IBD patients. So I haven’t really started on any new medications that would explain these bruises, although perhaps by coincidence just as the bruises started appearing, I also experienced significant improvement in my UC, giving me hope that I am going into remission for the first time since diagnosed. Only 2 toilet trips a day for the last week or so! That is the first time I have been that "healthy" since I was on 50mg of pred. Anyone have any suggestions for me about what might be causing those bruises? Thanks, Amy Melbourne, Australia

Response:

Question:

My very casual and not even remotely statistically valid impression is that on the (entirely reasonable) basis of package and company warnings, most doctors are probably under the impression that these side effects are relatively uncommon, affecting perhaps of the order of 10% to 30%. This in turn is probably representative of how many people in trials were prepared to speak up and discuss the resultant effects (which, for a single, depressed person, might not be something you really want to discuss with a stranger). On the other hand, casual late night discussions in IRC (it’s always late night for someone, somewhere, so we have these sorts of discussions at any hour!) would suggest that if such side effects aren’t universal, they’re certainly the rule rather than the exception. It’s difficult to imagine how you go about researching the prevelance of anorgasmia in SSRI patients (there, I said it!) without outright asking the single ones if wanking has become a waste of time and effort…. I’ve heard it suggested that SSRIs work by suppressing libido, thus removing the single most potent basis for depression, feeling lonely and single. OK, we were joking, but thats an indication of how common this stuff is. As for me? Well I’d love to test if there has been any adverse sexual effect from my effexor, but noone has offered to help me investigate, (which also raises the question of what is adverse and who it’s adverse for) and I would never do such a thing on my own! Graham For any Aussies present, my GP used to be Dr Feelgood, which made discussing this sort of stuff a good deal easier; I used to tell her they’d perfected the male contraceptive, it was an SSRI. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A new study found that patient complaints of sexual dysfunction caused by antidepressants are almost two times greater than believed by physicians, according to a report presented at the American Psychiatric Association’s annual meeting. Researchers studied 6,297 patients enrolled at 1,101 primary care offices throughout the U.S. and evaluated 10 different new generation antidepressants. Although selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs) and serotonin and norephinephrine reuptake inhibitors (SNRIs) are associated with a higher rate of sexual dysfunction, newer antidepressants such as bupropion (Wellbutrin) and nefazodone have shown a lower incidence of the problem. "The SSRIs are known to cause sexual dysfunction as a side effect, but until now, there hasn’t been a study to look at all the new generation antidepressants to see how they compare," said Dr. Anita Clayton, associate professor and vice chair of the Department of Psychiatric Medicine at the University of Virginia and lead investigator of the study. "Physicians and patients are generally reluctant to talk about sexual problems. Therefore, physicians often underestimate the prevalence of antidepressant-associated sexual dysfunction and the impact on patients, as shown in this study." Wellbutrin SR (bupropion HCI) Sustained-Release was associated with the lowest rate of sexual dysfunction (25 percent) after Wellbutrin (bupropion HCI) (22 percent), compared with an average of 40 percent with the SSRIs venlafaxine (Effexor) and mirtazapine (Remeron). The prevalence rate of sexual dysfunction ranged from 7 percent of patients receiving Wellbutrin SR to 23 to 30 percent for patients receiving the other antidepressants, including fluoxetine (Prozac), citalopram (Celexa) and venlafaxine XR. This article is brought to you by the "Depression Week" online newsletter. This newletter presents the latest news and views on developments in Depression, it is one of a family of specialized medical newsletters brought to you by Medical Week, LLC. http://www.depressionweek.org/

– Some of my colleagues think that the chemicals we are experimenting with could potentially cause brain damage, however I think that fish crunchy bits of salami my new red hippie noodle. Naked pool frogs?

Response:

A new study found that patient complaints of sexual dysfunction caused by antidepressants are almost two times greater than believed by physicians, according to a report presented at the American Psychiatric Association’s annual meeting. Researchers studied 6,297 patients enrolled at 1,101 primary care offices throughout the U.S. and evaluated 10 different new generation antidepressants. Although selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs) and serotonin and norephinephrine reuptake inhibitors (SNRIs) are associated with a higher rate of sexual dysfunction, newer antidepressants such as bupropion (Wellbutrin) and nefazodone have shown a lower incidence of the problem. "The SSRIs are known to cause sexual dysfunction as a side effect, but until now, there hasn’t been a study to look at all the new generation antidepressants to see how they compare," said Dr. Anita Clayton, associate professor and vice chair of the Department of Psychiatric Medicine at the University of Virginia and lead investigator of the study. "Physicians and patients are generally reluctant to talk about sexual problems. Therefore, physicians often underestimate the prevalence of antidepressant-associated sexual dysfunction and the impact on patients, as shown in this study." Wellbutrin SR (bupropion HCI) Sustained-Release was associated with the lowest rate of sexual dysfunction (25 percent) after Wellbutrin (bupropion HCI) (22 percent), compared with an average of 40 percent with the SSRIs venlafaxine (Effexor) and mirtazapine (Remeron). The prevalence rate of sexual dysfunction ranged from 7 percent of patients receiving Wellbutrin SR to 23 to 30 percent for patients receiving the other antidepressants, including fluoxetine (Prozac), citalopram (Celexa) and venlafaxine XR. This article is brought to you by the "Depression Week" online newsletter. This newletter presents the latest news and views on developments in Depression, it is one of a family of specialized medical newsletters brought to you by Medical Week, LLC. http://www.depressionweek.org/

Response:

Question:

Modern SSRI antidepressants are good at preventing both depression and ejaculation…..     It’s a well known but little discussed side effect of drugs like prozac, zoloft, effexor, citalopram….. Hello, I was wondering if anyone can help me with a problem I’ve had since I was a teenager.  Everytime I ejaculate, I get a feeling of depression x approximately 2-3 days.    It has nothing to do with anything psychologically but I feel is biochemical.   Does anyone know of a solution or can direct me to a solution for this problem? Thanks R

– Some of my colleagues think that the chemicals we are experimenting with could potentially cause brain damage, however I think that fish crunchy bits of salami my new red hippie noodle. Naked pool frogs?

Response:

Hello, I was wondering if anyone can help me with a problem I’ve had since I was a teenager.  Everytime I ejaculate, I get a feeling of depression x approximately 2-3 days.    It has nothing to do with anything psychologically but I feel is biochemical.   Does anyone know of a solution or can direct me to a solution for this problem? Thanks R

It is possible to abuse sex. It can be very effective as a means of reducing anxiety. It is an addiction much as drinking exsessive amounts of alcohol. Doubt if it’s biochemical any more then an alcoholic that feels depressed when drinking. Contact a therapist that knows anything about sexual issues. And a lot of them don’t know so don’t settle for the first you find. They might also tell you if there is a possibillity that it is a biochemical reaction. J.

Response:

Hello, I was wondering if anyone can help me with a problem I’ve had since I was a teenager.  Everytime I ejaculate, I get a feeling of depression x approximately 2-3 days.    It has nothing to do with anything psychologically but I feel is biochemical.   Does anyone know of a solution or can direct me to a solution for this problem? Thanks R

Response:

I was wondering if anyone can help me with a problem I’ve had since I was a teenager.  Everytime I ejaculate, I get a feeling of depression x approximately 2-3 days.    It has nothing to do with anything psychologically but I feel is biochemical.   Does anyone know of a solution or can direct me to a solution for this problem?

Stop ejaculating and get some good therapy?? Sincerely Stewart — The Metaphor Man  *and*  The Great Defender of the Self (remove the SPAMBLOCK) Please send me an e-mail copy of your posted response.

Response:

Question:

Hi all, My fiance has been put on Zoloft for anxiety.  He’s taking 25 mg daily, which is half of the proscribed dosage, but he feels it’s working well enough to stick with that dosage.  His neuro put him on nortriptyline last week for migraines and said "it tends to work well in conjunction with zoloft."  Problem is the drowsiness it’s causing is leaving him a zombie, and he feels the migraines are better than the drowsiness.  Furthermore, he looked in his drug reference book and, according to that, zoloft and nortriptyline do EXACTLY the same thing in terms of serotonin reuptake. So my questions are: Why would a neuro prescribe nortriptyline and zoloft at the same time?  Do they really do the same thing/is there any benefit to taking them both at the same time?  Is anyone out there taking zoloft and nortriptyline together?  And–probably most important–how long can he expect the drowsiness to last?  He’s already decided to quit the nortriptyline altogether and double the zoloft dose, but we’re both sort of wondering if that’s the right thing to do. — someone

Response:

Okay, let me clarify.  First, he only took nortriptyline for about 4 days, as it was *just* prescribed by his neuro.  So the fact that he quit "cold turkey" isn’t really significant IMO.  The neuro did indeed tell him it would take about 6 weeks for any "noticeable effects," and that the drowsiness would last maybe 2-4 weeks; but he decided that he could not deal with it for that long.  (BTW he was taking it at bedtime and then sleeping for 10+ hours, but was still like a zombie the next day.)  As for the zoloft, that was prescribed by his psychiatrist for anxiety.  He started that in the usual fashion with an extremely small dose and worked up to .25 mg, which is half of the proscribed "full dose."  His shrink had intended for him to advance to the full dose, but he stopped at .25 mg because he felt it was doing a very good job with the anxiety at that level, so taking more was not necessary (he discussed this with his shrink just last week, and even he felt that was pretty sound logic).  Then when he read that zoloft and nortriptyline do the same thing, he decided to drop the nortryptiline and up the zoloft to the originally intended dose. Incidentally, *now* he’s not sure he’s even *having* migraines anymore; he says now that he thinks about it, he can’t remember the last time he had a *real* migraine.  He has some of the symptoms all the time, like flashing lights, etc., but as far as *pain* goes, he’s beginning to think that those are either tension headaches or Excedrin rebound headaches–since they don’t occur just on one side like his usual migraines.  Seems like the *possible* (we hope) disappearance of full-blown migraines correlates pretty well with when he started taking zoloft.  We’ve got our fingers crossed. And here’s an interesting side note: Last October he underwent a sleep study to test for possible sleep apnea.  He has serious problems getting up in the morning, and is physically tired all day regardless of how much sleep he gets.  The study did not turn up any signs of sleep apnea, but did show an early-onset of REM which, according to the neuro, is common in people who suffer from depression (which causes which, nobody knows).  BUT he does not suffer from depression at all, at least no outward signs.  Is it possible to have "clinical depression" without *ever* feeling depressed?  Anyway the neuro said nortryptiline is especially good at treating depression, and "works well in conjunction with zoloft."  Too bad he couldn’t handle the drowsiness. BTW, he is still taking zoloft at bedtime, with xanax to counteract the jitters.  I guess the nortryptiline did *too good* of a job counteracting them. Whew!  So then, you seem to have a certain amount of medical background. What do you think of all this? — Ninerfan (a.k.a. Someone–now posting from her own computer instead of her boyfriend’s)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Zoloft (a selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor, a/k/a SSRI)often causes "jitters," and difficulty in getting to sleep or staying asleep. The sedating tricyclic/heterocyclic(TCAs or HCAs) antidepressants (ADs) cause drowsiness or deep sleep without addiction. (Some drugs in that class aren’t sedating.) Both are useful for migraine prophylaxis (px); ergo, each prescribed together, with extra potential to prevent migraines, increase your actual physical pain tolerance, increase the effectiveness of analgesics and each (with luck) canceling out some of the side effects of each other. This is awfully clever prescribing, actually, and I wish my docs had thought of it! Pamelor (nortriptyline) is a second-generation tricyclic, a direct derivative of Elavil or Tofranil (I forget which)–sort of a pre-digested Elavil/Tofranil. First-generation drugs go through a bunch o’ changes as they’re metabolized. The thinking was that for depression, if you could give patients something which was farther along in the process of conversion to a substance useful to the body, the AD would work faster. This might mean patients wouldn’t have to wait 4-6 weeks to see if the AD would work. Unfortunately, second- and third-generation ADs were no faster at lifting depressions. However, they had fewer serious side effects for many people while still maintaining the effectiveness of the older drugs for many people. Pamelor is generally prescribed before bedtime and Zoloft in the morning. Anxiety disorders generally don’t respond well to the TCAs or HCAs, but many of the SSRIs and the neither/or ADs (Desyrel/trazodone, for instance) are very useful in obsess.-comp. dis., gen’l anx. dis., etc. ABSOLUTELY do not d/c nortriptyline abruptly!!! This is very important. And NEVER double the dosage of a psych medicine on your own. Some cause heart arrythmias, some cause whacko neurological problems, wierd thoughts/behavior, etc. Call the doctor and state the complaint. Hi all, My fiance has been put on Zoloft for anxiety.  He’s taking 25 mg daily, which is half of the proscribed dosage, but he feels it’s working well enough to stick with that dosage.  His neuro put him on nortriptyline last week for migraines and said "it tends to work well in conjunction with zoloft."  Problem is the drowsiness it’s causing is leaving him a zombie, and he feels the migraines are better than the drowsiness.  Furthermore, he looked in his drug reference book and, according to that, zoloft and nortriptyline do EXACTLY the same thing in terms of serotonin reuptake. So my questions are: Why would a neuro prescribe nortriptyline and zoloft at the same time?  Do they really do the same thing/is there any benefit to taking them both at the same time?  Is anyone out there taking zoloft and nortriptyline together?  And–probably most important–how long can he expect the drowsiness to last?  He’s already decided to quit the nortriptyline altogether and double the zoloft dose, but we’re both sort of wondering if that’s the right thing to do. — someone

Response:

Question: *Why* is it a "good idea" to wean yourself off of a medication which is preventing migraines?

My opinion…. A medication takes upwards to 6 weeks at times to fully get into ones system….. stopping a medication quickly can shock ones system and might cause further medical complications… the medications dont know that we are taking them for migraines…… I take a blood pressure medication called Inderal… if I were to stop taking this completely cold turkey, it might shock my pressure and system and cause all sorts of difficulities…… make sense? Kristen Leigh

Response:

Hi Debby, He only took nortriptyline for about 4 days, so we’re not really worried about side effects.  I’m concerned that maybe he didn’t give it long enough, but he’s a big boy, so I can’t really make him take it if he doesn’t want to. Question: *Why* is it a "good idea" to wean yourself off of a medication which is preventing migraines? — Ninerfan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – and I agree would be a good idea.  Please be very careful—if you are considering changing medication don’t do it suddenly or without consulting your doctor–there can be VERY nasty side effects from sudden withdrawal. Debby

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Zoloft (a selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor, a/k/a SSRI)often causes "jitters," and difficulty in getting to sleep or staying asleep. The sedating tricyclic/heterocyclic(TCAs or HCAs) antidepressants (ADs) cause drowsiness or deep sleep without addiction. (Some drugs in that class aren’t sedating.) Both are useful for migraine prophylaxis (px); ergo, each prescribed together, with extra potential to prevent migraines, increase your actual physical pain tolerance, increase the effectiveness of analgesics and each (with luck) canceling out some of the side effects of each other. This is awfully clever prescribing, actually, and I wish my docs had thought of it! Pamelor (nortriptyline) is a second-generation tricyclic, a direct derivative of Elavil or Tofranil (I forget which)–sort of a pre-digested Elavil/Tofranil. First-generation drugs go through a bunch o’ changes as they’re metabolized. The thinking was that for depression, if you could give patients something which was farther along in the process of conversion to a substance useful to the body, the AD would work faster. This might mean patients wouldn’t have to wait 4-6 weeks to see if the AD would work. Unfortunately, second- and third-generation ADs were no faster at lifting depressions. However, they had fewer serious side effects for many people while still maintaining the effectiveness of the older drugs for many people. Pamelor is generally prescribed before bedtime and Zoloft in the morning. Anxiety disorders generally don’t respond well to the TCAs or HCAs, but many of the SSRIs and the neither/or ADs (Desyrel/trazodone, for instance) are very useful in obsess.-comp. dis., gen’l anx. dis., etc. ABSOLUTELY do not d/c nortriptyline abruptly!!! This is very important. And NEVER double the dosage of a psych medicine on your own. Some cause heart arrythmias, some cause whacko neurological problems, wierd thoughts/behavior, etc. Call the doctor and state the complaint. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi all, My fiance has been put on Zoloft for anxiety.  He’s taking 25 mg daily, which is half of the proscribed dosage, but he feels it’s working well enough to stick with that dosage.  His neuro put him on nortriptyline last week for migraines and said "it tends to work well in conjunction with zoloft."  Problem is the drowsiness it’s causing is leaving him a zombie, and he feels the migraines are better than the drowsiness.  Furthermore, he looked in his drug reference book and, according to that, zoloft and nortriptyline do EXACTLY the same thing in terms of serotonin reuptake. So my questions are: Why would a neuro prescribe nortriptyline and zoloft at the same time?  Do they really do the same thing/is there any benefit to taking them both at the same time?  Is anyone out there taking zoloft and nortriptyline together?  And–probably most important–how long can he expect the drowsiness to last?  He’s already decided to quit the nortriptyline altogether and double the zoloft dose, but we’re both sort of wondering if that’s the right thing to do. — someone

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I am taking Elavil and Prozac together, and I had the same questions as to why take two antidepressants together.  I’m not sure what the reasoning is behind it, but it’s quite common for migraines.  I take the Elavil at night and it helps me sleep.  The first week or so I was a zombie, but it got better after about 10 days.  Tell him to hang in there, it gets better.

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snip<  i THINK that nortriptyline is amytriptyline (sp?) (elavil)? & is classified as a tricyclic, wheras zoloft is an SSRI (selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor).  

Nortriptyline is the generic name for Pamelar and amytriptyline is the generic name for Elavil.  They are similar but not the same.   I’m not sure if they are classified as tricyclics…I never did understand what tricyclics were anyway. if that’s the case, perhaps they work a little differently, albeit both on the serotonin. in any event, my experience with the drowsiness is that it passes after awhile.  it was the dry mouth (from elavil; i haven’t been on zoloft) that bummed me out.

I’ve been on nortriptyline for 5 years.  My dosage has ranged from 50 to 100 mgs.  I barely notice the side effects.  I keep trying to find a less stressful time so that I can start to wean myself which my doctor and I agree would be a good idea.  Please be very careful—if you are considering changing medication don’t do it suddenly or without consulting your doctor–there can be VERY nasty side effects from sudden withdrawal. Debby

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: , he : looked in his drug reference book and, according to that, zoloft and : nortriptyline do EXACTLY the same thing in terms of serotonin reuptake. :  i THINK that nortriptyline is amytriptyline (sp?) (elavil)? & is classified : as a tricyclic, wheras zoloft is an SSRI (selective serotonin reuptake : inhibitor).   if that’s the case, perhaps they work a little differently, : albeit both on the serotonin. in any event, my experience with the : drowsiness is that it passes after awhile.  it was the dry mouth (from : elavil; i haven’t been on zoloft) that bummed me out. I believe nortriptyline is *related* to amitriptyline (none of this spelling looks right to me), not the same thing. Many of these antidepressants do *roughly* the same thing, but in slightly different ways.  This is why they may have different side effects and may work better in combination than alone. I’m switching off of Zoloft, and am trying Wellbutrin.  (Actually I’m on both now, as the Wellbutrin settles in, so I don’t get left with a period with no antidepressant — I have clinical depression.)  I may, however, end up taking two different antidepressants, taking one which has sleepiness side effects in the evening and Wellbutrin, which has energizing side effects, earlier in the day.  Lots of folks do it that way.  The sedative effect of the med taken in the evening helps one sleep. Years ago I was on amitryptaline to see if it would help my migraines, and I discovered that I could count on falling asleep almost exactly 30 minutes after I took my dose.  Which was great, because I often have trouble falling asleep. Priscilla

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, he looked in his drug reference book and, according to that, zoloft and nortriptyline do EXACTLY the same thing in terms of serotonin reuptake.

 i THINK that nortriptyline is amytriptyline (sp?) (elavil)? & is classified as a tricyclic, wheras zoloft is an SSRI (selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor).   if that’s the case, perhaps they work a little differently, albeit both on the serotonin. in any event, my experience with the drowsiness is that it passes after awhile.  it was the dry mouth (from elavil; i haven’t been on zoloft) that bummed me out.

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You miss the point.  Why stop at all, if that medication is preventing the migraines?  Isn’t this sort of telling the patient that the migraine is all in your head and you just have to deal with it?  As if you have agoraphobia or something that you just have to "get over"?  To put it another way, if you were taking insulin shots for diabetes, would your doctor attempt to "wean" you off of insulin?

No, I dont think it is the same thing and I dont think that the doctors are saying that it is all in our heads.. at least the good ones…… what I do think is that… as I posted earlier….. I was told that it is possible that the migraine is cyclic… meaning that they come in cycles and if that cycle is broken, it is possible to be without the medications for a while…. I am not a doctor, nor do I pretend to be one.. all I know is what I have been told and learned myself….. and that is that I see two possibilities for weaning off a medication… one the med isnt working and one is at a dosage that is too high just to stop cold turkey and switch….. as is the case I have with the inderal I am on… or two….. that the doctor wants to see if the patient is able to survive off the medications without getting the migraines back again…… if I had the possibility of breaking a cycle of migraines and living life with one or two a year and NOT being on medications….. well, it would be a dream come true….. I would think that it would be worth a shot at least to find out….. from a laymans point of view……unlike a diabetic….. blood sugar levels are able to be tested where as migraines (at least most from what I gather) cannot be found on any one test…. this leaves open a lot of room for opinion and differences  in treatments……. if a diabetic’s system were to improve then this person would need less and less insulin…. possibly even get to a point where they dont need it….. as has happened with juvinile diabetis… sooooooo  lets get hypothetical for a moment….. if there WERE a test for migraines.. and a patients system were to show that they are needing less and less of a medication… wouldnt it make sense for them to take the lesser dosage necessary?  so in that respect… since there ISNT a test to tell this…. one must try it and see…. as with us trying different medications and different courses of treatment.. each is different… each doctor is different.. each migraine is different… all one can do is experiment and try to get to the as I said, this is just my opinion and what I have been told….. Again, I am not a doctor and cannot speak for why individuals are weaned off meds or not, it is just a theory which in my laypersons opinion.. think is a valid one that if I were to get to the point that I  did not have a migraine in lets say  a year …. I would certaintly want to TRY and see if I were able to survive without all these drugs…. I hate taking them at all times and even now dream for the day to live life without them…… it is a constant fight going on within… why at 25 do I have to take all this junk…… what did I ever do… I might never have that answer…. who knows? Kristen Leigh

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You miss the point.  Why stop at all, if that medication is preventing the migraines?  Isn’t this sort of telling the patient that the migraine is all in your head and you just have to deal with it?  As if you have agoraphobia or something that you just have to "get over"?  To put it another way, if you were taking insulin shots for diabetes, would your doctor attempt to "wean" you off of insulin? — Ninerfan

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Question: *Why* is it a "good idea" to wean yourself off of a medication which is preventing migraines? My opinion…. A medication takes upwards to 6 weeks at times to fully get into ones system….. stopping a medication quickly can shock ones system and might cause further medical complications… the medications dont know that we are taking them for migraines…… I take a blood pressure medication called Inderal… if I were to stop taking this completely cold turkey, it might shock my pressure and system and cause all sorts of difficulities…… make sense? Kristen Leigh

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: Question: *Why* is it a "good idea" to wean yourself off of a medication : which is preventing migraines? Because stopping *any* medication too suddenly can shock the body and produce unpleasant effects. Priscilla

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Hi Debby, snip< Question: *Why* is it a "good idea" to wean yourself off of a medication which is preventing migraines? — Ninerfan

Hi Ninerfan, Sorry it has taken me so long to reply to your question. I’ve been taking nortriptyline in varying dosages for about six years. In the meantime, I have also taken various other combinations of medicine to prevent my migraines and to treat my chronic daily headaches.  In addition to the nortriptyline, I also take Verapamil (calan){as a preventative} which is a calcium-channel blocker usually prescribed for high blood pressure.  When I began taking the Verapamil several years ago, my chronic daily headaches disappeared almost immediately.  Unless I am extremely stressed, my migraines (with aura) are pretty infrequent and they respond well to a combination of midrin and compazine or to DHE. I started taking nortriptyline when I was first being treated for rebound headaches from taking too much tylenol.  At that time I was having headaches every day and migraines, as often as 2 – 3 times a week.  Since my headaches seem to be much less of a problem, it seems like a good idea to try to eliminate one of the medicines I take every day.  I expect to take Verapamil or other blood pressure medicines for quite some time since I am also taking them because I have moderately elevated blood pressure.  We’re trying to determine if I still need to take the nortriptyline anymore. I’m not a doctor nor do I play one on this newsgroup but I hope that this explanantion is helpful. Debby

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Question:

Hi, From how I understand it, it is the degree of the movement and the length they last.  Like with myoclonus, is fast quick jerky movememts.  I know there is a site that describes each movement much better, but do not have that address. I know someone will add that info. (Thanks). Hope that helps alittle. Cathy

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Thanks. Just trying to figure out just what it is exactly that I have, besides Essential Tremor. Trevor – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, From how I understand it, it is the degree of the movement and the length they last.  Like with myoclonus, is fast quick jerky movememts.  I know there is a site that describes each movement much better, but do not have that address. I know someone will add that info. (Thanks). Hope that helps alittle. Cathy

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Hi all. I’m new here. I’ve had Essential Tremor for 23 years (since I was 13) and now my doc has told me I have Myoclonus too. I’ve looked into that, and it seems to me that Myoclonus and dystonia are very similar. I don’t understand much medical terminology, so if anyone would be kind enough to explain the difference in plain English, I’d appreciate it. T

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Question:

Perhaps we could start with defining self-worth, and considering evolutionary roots leading to it, or how it is seen (or not seen) in lower animals. Below is a suggestion of the meaning of "self worth."  There are needs for certain aspects of belonginness.  Perhaps self-worth would include an assessment of the probability of their being met.  Perhaps this would also include an assessment of one’s "deservingness" of their being met, or in other words, an absence of shame or guilt. We might also consider that there may be brain based templates for such things as shame or guilt, such that if they are stimulated, or their conditions met, an unpleasant feeling is generated, which has the effect of modifying behavior. (more)

 :–  :                            Rational Negativism:  :               A Divergent Theory of Emotional Disorder  :  :Objective: To account for self-worth related emotion (i.e., needs for  :   love, acceptance, moral integrity, recognition, achievement,  :   purpose, meaning, etc.) and emotional disorder (e.g., depression,  :   suicide, etc.) within the context of an evolutionary scenario; i.e.,  :to  :   synthesize natural science and the humanities; i.e., to answer the  :   question:  ’Why is there a species of naturally selected organism  :   expending huge quantities of effort and energy on the  :survivalistically  :   bizarre non-physical objective of  maximizing self-worth?’  : If we view nature films of animals which live in groups, we find the existence of a heirarchy in many of them.  Often that heirarchy is constantly shifting, and is frequently re-ordered.  Sometimes, an individual is on the low end so often, he becomes a permanently low-status member.  He is fearful, and doesn’t even dare to challenge a higher-status member. Since the capacity for this behavior is species-wide, there must be templates for those behaviors involved.  Certainly, one can not impose them on reptiles, or solitary animals like certain cats.  Coincidentally, those seem to be the same animals which are prone to domestication. What are those templates?  How about feelings, such as shame, guilt, fear, a feeling of "less than," of being impressed with another who is "more than." In other words, feelings of a lack of self-worth.  And why do some individuals strive to change the pecking order?  Because those feelings are unpleasant, and they wish for them to be lost.  The way to lose those feelings is to increase one’s status, and with an absence of shame and fear, one has a greater feeling of self-worth. Viewing this in an evolutionary way, why would it happen?  For one thing, a group is more efficient in meeting its needs if it is organized.  For another, lower status enhances cooperation.  And it may be that the higher status individuals breed more often, passing along the genes of the stronger members of the group more frequently than those of the weaker ones. Thus, it is advantageous that the lower ones should strive for higher status, as a test of their potential for ancestry of a future group.  And it may be advantageous if the bolder ones lead the group in defending against intruders. Consequently, we have negative feelings and if not opposite feelings, then at least the absence of the negative ones. There is also an element of confidence.  With confidence, one feels that his behavior is likely to produce a desired result.  And he feels that he has the personal ability to carry out the behaviors.   Consequently, he is more likely to act when he is unable to know the outcome, than would a less confident individual.  Feelings of self-worth seem to be necessary for one to have confidence, and energy to carry out a plan. With the problem of bipolar disorder, this mechanism seems to go astray. The person attains such high confidence, he gambles on high risk propositions.  He has the energy to do a lot of work, and may be aggressive without purpose, as if he were at the top of a pack. Then he swings toward the opposite end, and lacks all confidence, lacks all energy, as if he were at the very bottom.  Is it possible that bipolar disorder means that existing templates for feelings and behavior are being triggered without environmental information which generally does that?  :Observation: The species in which rationality is most developed is  :   also the one in which individuals have the greatest difficulty in  :   maintaining an adequate sense of self-worth, often going to  :   extraordinary lengths in doing so (e.g., Evel Knievel, celibate  :monks,  self-endangering Greenpeacers, etc.).  : We have imposed culture upon our biological nature.  Where other creatures might be satisfied to find a place within a small pack, humans overlay their learning on this impulse, and seek through displays of wealth or education to gain the esteem of others, to bolster their self-esteem.  They may be holier than thou, humbler than thou, stronger or more beautiful, wherever they might find their niche.  Their learning may communicate to them that better means more powerful or more envied, or that better means more right.  :Hypothesis: Rationality is antagonistic to psychocentric stability  :(i.e.,  :   maintaining an adequate sense of self-worth).  :  :Synopsis: In much the manner reasoning allows for the subordination  :   of lower emotional concerns and values (pain, fear, anger, sex, etc.)  :   to more global concerns (concern for the self as a whole), so too,  :   these more global concerns and values can themselves become  :   reevaluated and subordinated to other more global, more objective  :   considerations. And if this is so, and assuming that emotional  :   disorder emanates from a deficiency in self-worth resulting from  :   precisely this sort of experiencially based reevaluation, then it can  :   reasonably be construed as a natural malfunction resulting from  :   one’s rational faculties functioning a tad too well.  : Negative information can cause negative feelings, but negative feelings can also cause all information to seem negative.  There is also a theory that depression has an evolutionary survival function. There was an observation of I think, some perigrene falcons, which mate for life.  The female did not return to the nest, and the male waited for her until he starved to death.  It was concluded that this was not helpful to the species, and therefore, depression was a fluke of nature. However, what would have happened if he had eventually concluded that she was not returning, and he was hungry and needed to find a meal?  Possibly the behavior of mating for life would have been weakened, which is connected to the survival of that species.  So if that happened a lot, and such birds passed along their genes and increased in number, the behavior may have diminished or disappeared, together with its survival function. So a very strong motivation to be loyal to the partner to the very end, possibly contributes to the survival of that species.  Consequently, depression is not without its function there (assuming the bird was depressed, of course.)  :Normalcy and Disorder: Assuming this is correct, then some  :   explanation for the relative "normalcy" of most individuals would  :   seem necessary. This is accomplished simply by postulating  :   different levels or degrees of consciousness.  From this perspective,  :   emotional disorder would then be construed as a valuative affliction  :   resulting from an increase in semantic content in the engram indexed  :   by the linguistic expression, "I am insignificant", which all persons  :of  :   common sense "know" to be true, but which the "emotionally  :   disturbed" have come to "realize", through abstract thought,  :   devaluing experience, etc.  :  :Implications: So-called "free will" and the incessant activity presumed  :   to emanate from it is simply the insatiable appetite we all have for  :   self-significating experience which, in turn, is simply nature’s way  :of  :   attempting to counter the objectifying influences of our rational  :   faculties. This also implies that the engine in the first  :"free-thinking"  :   artifact is probably going to be a diesel.  : Huh?  :  :   "Another simile would be an atomic pile of less than critical size:  :an  :   injected idea is to correspond to a neutron entering the pile from  :   without. Each such neutron will cause a certain disturbance which  :   eventually dies away. If, however, the size of the pile is  :sufficiently  :   increased, the disturbance caused by such an incoming neutron will  :   very likely go on and on increasing until the whole pile is  :destroyed.  :   Is there a corresponding phenomenon for minds?" (A. M. Turing).  :  :  :Additional Implications: Since the explanation I have proposed  :   amounts to the contention that the most rational species  :   (presumably) is beginning to exhibit signs of transcending the  :   formalism of nature’s fixed objective (accomplished in man via  :   intentional self-concern, i.e., the prudence program) it can  :reasonably  :   be construed as providing evidence and argumentation in support of  :   Lucas/Godel. Not only does this imply that the aforementioned  :   artifact probably won’t be a computer, but it would also explain why  :a  :   question such as "Can Human Irrationality Be Experimentally  :   Demonstrated?" (Cohen, 1981) has led to controversy, in that it  :   presupposes the possibility of a discrete (formalizable) answer to a  :   question which can only be addressed in comparative  :   (non-formalizable) terms (e.g. X is more rational than Y, the norm,  :etc.).  : There are some games, including the prisoner’s dilemma, which generally result in irrationality.  There is also a bird which has a behavior of tearing down its neighbor’s nest.  The bird has several choices.  1.) Spend all his time guarding what part of his nest is built, 2.) Look for new … read more »

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–                             Rational Negativism:                A Divergent Theory of Emotional Disorder Objective: To account for self-worth related emotion (i.e., needs for    love, acceptance, moral integrity, recognition, achievement,    purpose, meaning, etc.) and emotional disorder (e.g., depression,    suicide, etc.) within the context of an evolutionary scenario; i.e., to    synthesize natural science and the humanities; i.e., to answer the    question:  ’Why is there a species of naturally selected organism    expending huge quantities of effort and energy on the survivalistically    bizarre non-physical objective of  maximizing self-worth?’ Observation: The species in which rationality is most developed is    also the one in which individuals have the greatest difficulty in    maintaining an adequate sense of self-worth, often going to    extraordinary lengths in doing so (e.g., Evel Knievel, celibate monks,    self-endangering Greenpeacers, etc.). Hypothesis: Rationality is antagonistic to psychocentric stability (i.e.,    maintaining an adequate sense of self-worth). Synopsis: In much the manner reasoning allows for the subordination    of lower emotional concerns and values (pain, fear, anger, sex, etc.)    to more global concerns (concern for the self as a whole), so too,    these more global concerns and values can themselves become    reevaluated and subordinated to other more global, more objective    considerations. And if this is so, and assuming that emotional    disorder emanates from a deficiency in self-worth resulting from    precisely this sort of experiencially based reevaluation, then it can    reasonably be construed as a natural malfunction resulting from    one’s rational faculties functioning a tad too well. Normalcy and Disorder: Assuming this is correct, then some    explanation for the relative "normalcy" of most individuals would    seem necessary. This is accomplished simply by postulating    different levels or degrees of consciousness.  From this perspective,    emotional disorder would then be construed as a valuative affliction    resulting from an increase in semantic content in the engram indexed    by the linguistic expression, "I am insignificant", which all persons of    common sense "know" to be true, but which the "emotionally    disturbed" have come to "realize", through abstract thought,    devaluing experience, etc. Implications: So-called "free will" and the incessant activity presumed    to emanate from it is simply the insatiable appetite we all have for    self-significating experience which, in turn, is simply nature’s way of    attempting to counter the objectifying influences of our rational    faculties. This also implies that the engine in the first "free-thinking"    artifact is probably going to be a diesel.    "Another simile would be an atomic pile of less than critical size: an    injected idea is to correspond to a neutron entering the pile from    without. Each such neutron will cause a certain disturbance which    eventually dies away. If, however, the size of the pile is sufficiently    increased, the disturbance caused by such an incoming neutron will    very likely go on and on increasing until the whole pile is destroyed.    Is there a corresponding phenomenon for minds?" (A. M. Turing). Additional Implications: Since the explanation I have proposed    amounts to the contention that the most rational species    (presumably) is beginning to exhibit signs of transcending the    formalism of nature’s fixed objective (accomplished in man via    intentional self-concern, i.e., the prudence program) it can reasonably    be construed as providing evidence and argumentation in support of    Lucas/Godel. Not only does this imply that the aforementioned    artifact probably won’t be a computer, but it would also explain why a    question such as "Can Human Irrationality Be Experimentally    Demonstrated?" (Cohen, 1981) has led to controversy, in that it    presupposes the possibility of a discrete (formalizable) answer to a    question which can only be addressed in comparative    (non-formalizable) terms (e.g. X is more rational than Y, the norm, etc.).      Along these same lines, the theory can also be construed as an    endorsement or metajustification for comparative approaches in    epistemology (explanationism, plausiblism, etc.)    "The short answer [to Lucas/Godel and more recently, Penrose]     is that, although it is established that there are limitations to the    powers of any particular machine, it has only been stated, without    any sort of proof, that no such limitations apply to human intellect "    (A. M. Turing).    "So even if mathematicians are superb cognizers of mathematical    truth, and even if there is no algorithm, practical or otherwise,    for cognizing mathematical truth, it does not follow that the power    of mathematicians to cognize mathematical truth is not entirely    explicable in terms of their brain’s executing an algorithm.  Not    an algorhithm for intuiting mathematical truth —  we can suppose that    Penrose [via Godel] has proved that there could be no such thing.      What would the algorithm be for, then?  Most plausibly it would be an    algorithm — one of very many — for trying to stay alive … " (D. C.    Dennett). Oops!  Sorry!  Wrong again, old bean.      "My ruling passion is the love of literary fame" (David Hume).    "I have often felt as though I had inherited all the defiance and all the    passions with which our ancestors defended their Temple and could    gladly sacrifice my life for one great moment in history" (Sigmund    Freud).    "He, too [Ludwig Wittgenstein], suffered from depressions and for long    periods considered killing himself because he considered his life    worthless, but the stubbornness inherited from his father may have    helped him to survive" (Hans Sluga).    "The inquest [Alan Turing's] established that it was suicide.  The    evidence was perfunctory, not for any irregular reason, but because    it was so transparently clear a case" (Andrew Hodges) —                Phil Roberts, Jr. Feelings of Worthlessness and So-Called Cognitive Science         http://www.geocities.com/Athens/5476

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Question:

Would anyone tell me expiriences on this medication?

I take Sinequan which is doxepin hydrochloride. It is an older, tricyclic anti-depressant. I find it very sedating. I am taking 150mg/day. Gives me the munchies. — bev . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . http://members.tripod.com/~Veb

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I slept non-stop for two days…my sister and boyfriend dragged me to the BR when they could. I stopped taking those pills right then. Nowadays they have MUCH BETTER meds…. Try Prozac, effexor,etc. Kathy

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Would anyone tell me expiriences on this medication?

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Question:

What’s the difference?  Is there anyone with experience with both?

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What’s the difference?  Is there anyone with experience with both?

Big difference!  Prozac started it all and many other (paxil, zoloft, effexor, luvox) followed.  The basis is the same, but for more info I would suggest doing a search on any one in particular or investing in a drug book for lay people or checking out a PDR.  There are many here that have been on both, perhaps if you specify what it is you wantr to know…. Gwen

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What’s the difference?  Is there anyone with experience with both?

  Years ago my pDoc was reluctant to put me on Prozac.  I was already on Imipramine with Ativan for GAD and Prozac was known to cause anxiety.  However since depression was also a major problem for me, he finally put me on Prozac.  Worked great for me for a couple of years.  It did make me more anxious, but greatly helped my depression and panic.  Eventually I switched to Paxil because the anxiety got to be too much.  Paxil did have less of an anxiety effect on me and also helped panic and depression.  Paxil has a shorter half-life and this can make withdrawl from it more difficult (it did for me).    A search of this NG (and alt.support.depression) should provide all sorts of experiences with both. Depends on your needs as to which is best and of course YMMV.    Of course the Web has lots of info too, like these: http://www.gold.net/users/ad88/sideedi.htm http://www.MedsiteNavigator.com/drugs/drugs.html    (Prozac=Fluoxetine,Paxil=Paroxetine) Cheers, Bill

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:       What is a therapeutic dose of PAXIL. That depends on you and your doctor.  SmithKline makes 10 mg (new), 20 mg, and 30 mg tablets I believe. Some of

these have scores in the middle, some don’t.  I believe the 20 mg does. One possible advantage of Paxil is faster onset of action.  Prozac usually takes weeks, Paxil is faster.  It took me about 20 minutes.  I take 20 mg.  Initial side-effects that wore off: jitters, uneven feelings.   Prolonged side-effects: inability to sleep without klonopin or Excedrin PM, libido decreasing from little to almost zilch.  Frankly, I like that, as I am going through a divorce.  My wife doesn’t want me, and I don’t want anyone else.  I would take it for that reason alone.  It makes building a network of friends easier (no ulterior motives!).  I had previously had some panic/anxiety symptoms and have had none since I started, although I do have times when I am down.

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<much really good stuff snipped In my opinion (panic disorder for 27 years), what is important is for each of us to have a doctor who understands that each of us is fighting a problem that has a biological core and many psychological side effects.  

I think you’ve really encapsulated it well there, Tom. It seems to me that the worst doctor one can have is the type who has *one* cure which s/he applies universally and if it doesn’t work, the patient is at fault. The testimonies on ASAP alone bear witness to just how many different solutions there are. — Gary Cooper

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My doctor is moving me from prozac to paxil; she is under the impression that paxil has an advantage over prozac in handling anxiety. I am not good at search the literature; can anyone confirm or deny my doctor’s impression (for one thing, I dread the change-over period). Kristin —                     Kristin Rachael Hayward                 http://130.111.120.13/~hayward

Hello All!! Happy Holidays! My personal experience has been that Paxil is much more effective against panic disorder than Prozac.  I also know many others who have benefitted from Prozac re panic attacks. I tried Prozac for a short while, and it actually <<induced panic attacks, even though I started out with a gradual, upward tapering dosage.  I have friends who felt very shaky and energized while starting Paxil, but I never experiened that set of side effects either. I think the lesson to be learned is that each of us has his/her own biochemistry and (to quote Dr. George Sheehan) "each of us is an experiment of one".  We all respond differently and need to be treated as such.  For me, Paxil has been an excellent anti-panic med and Prozac was a dismal failure.  For the next person, however, the reverse could be true.  I believe that the SSRI’s and the benzos (and the tricyclics-imipramine, etc) all have a place in treating panic disorder. In my opinion (panic disorder for 27 years), what is important is for each of us to have a doctor who understands that each of us is fighting a problem that has a biological core and many psychological side effects.   I wish all of you the best in 1997 Regards, Tom — *****TRG Technologies*****                                       Tom Getts-Principal Consultant                             Web Pages                      Database Services (specialty: Oracle) General Internet Consulting    Scientific Consulting http://www.trg-tech.com                                                                    

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:       What is a therapeutic dose of PAXIL. I believe the standard therapeutic dosage for Paxil is 40mg, but you may end up on a higher or lower dosage depending on what is effective with tollerable side effects. I’m pretty comfortable at 30mg right now and may not have to move up to 40mg.                                         Best Wishes,                                         Arthur

Arthur Thanks I had a feeling 10 and 20 were low Did you get any REAL benefit at 10 or 20 (rather what did you feel happening ????) ie… No regular anxiety or just no PA ???? thanks …. John

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : : Arthur : : Thanks I had a feeling 10 and 20 were low : : Did you get any REAL benefit at 10 or 20 (rather what did you feel : happening ????) ie… No regular anxiety or just no PA ???? Well, I still have some anxiety problems at 30mg, but the PAs have stopped (I’m still celebrating that one!!!). Basically, I experienced increasing relief from the biologically caused anxiety as my dosage increased, but you can’t just get rid of all your anxiety with increased dosage. It’s natural to have some residue of psychological anxiety after experiencing severe anxiety or panic attacks, and this is best adressed with some form of psychotherapy. And let’s not forget, some degree of anxiety is simply part of a healthy mental state. The medications are a very important tool, but some of the work we just have to do ourselves.                                         Best Wishes,                                         Arthur

Thanks         I’ll keep in touch and let you now how its going John

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[snip Anyone have the address to Noodle's page?  I can never remember it. But, it has a lot of info about anxiety there! Good luck! JLS --

[snip] The URL is http://www.algy.com/anxiety/anxiety.html Best wishes, Hirsch address in header has been changed to avoid junk mail

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: : Arthur : : Thanks I had a feeling 10 and 20 were low : : Did you get any REAL benefit at 10 or 20 (rather what did you feel : happening ????) ie… No regular anxiety or just no PA ???? Well, I still have some anxiety problems at 30mg, but the PAs have stopped (I’m still celebrating that one!!!). Basically, I experienced increasing relief from the biologically caused anxiety as my dosage increased, but you can’t just get rid of all your anxiety with increased dosage. It’s natural to have some residue of psychological anxiety after experiencing severe anxiety or panic attacks, and this is best adressed with some form of psychotherapy. And let’s not forget, some degree of anxiety is simply part of a healthy mental state. The medications are a very important tool, but some of the work we just have to do ourselves.                                         Best Wishes,                                         Arthur

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:       What is a therapeutic dose of PAXIL. I believe the standard therapeutic dosage for Paxil is 40mg, but you may end up on a higher or lower dosage depending on what is effective with tollerable side effects. I’m pretty comfortable at 30mg right now and may not have to move up to 40mg.                                         Best Wishes,                                         Arthur

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My doctor is moving me from prozac to paxil; she is under the impression that paxil has an advantage over prozac in handling anxiety. I am not good at search the literature; can anyone confirm or deny my doctor’s impression (for one thing, I dread the change-over period). Kristin —                     Kristin Rachael Hayward                 http://130.111.120.13/~hayward

Kristin, I am on Paxil for anxiety, because I get really wound up, and the Dr. said it would take the edge off and calm me down.  My SO, who is bi-polar, is on Prozac, because he needs to be boosted up (He could sleep for days).  I feel better on Paxil, but it was the first med I have been on in years.  YOu can check the Anxiety Web Page to get more info. Anyone have the address to Noodle’s page?  I can never remember it. But, it has a lot of info about anxiety there! Good luck! JLS — "I’ve been searching for the Daughter of the Devil Himself, I’ve been searching for an Angel in White, I’ve been looking for a woman who’s a little of both, and I can feel her, but she’s no where in sight…"       Funny, I thought I heard someone was calling my name… http://www.winternet.com/~zodiac

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: My doctor is moving me from prozac to paxil; she is under the impression that : paxil has an advantage over prozac in handling anxiety. : : I am not good at search the literature; can anyone confirm or deny : my doctor’s impression (for one thing, I dread the change-over period). Hi Kristin, I think the most important question here is whether or not the prozac has significantly helped you? If you seem to be doing well on the prozac, then I don’t see much reason to change. However, if the prozac isn’t helping enough or if the prozac has unreliable affects, then paxil is certainly worth a try. I take paxil, but a close friend of mine takes prozac for anxiety. As long as the prozac works well for him, I wouldn’t encourage him to change. As far as I know, the only reason to prefer paxil over prozac is that, in general, people respond more reliably to paxil. Prozac may be harder to predict, but when it works for someone it seems to work as well as paxil.                                         Best Wishes,                                         Arthur

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My doctor is moving me from prozac to paxil; she is under the impression that paxil has an advantage over prozac in handling anxiety. I am not good at search the literature; can anyone confirm or deny my doctor’s impression (for one thing, I dread the change-over period). Kristin —                    Kristin Rachael Hayward                http://130.111.120.13/~hayward

Technically, Paxil has been approved by the FDA for anxiety treatment, while Prozac has not. Practically, both are used, and the responses to meds vary greatly from person to person.  The question you need to ask about the Prozac is:  Is it working??  If the Prozac has relieved your anxiety, why change??  OTOH, if you are still having problems with anxiety even after giving Prozac a chance to work, then Paxil is a reasonable alternative.  There is no one right med for anxiety, and finding the one that works best for you often involves trial and error. Please bear in mind that any of the SRI meds  (which include Prozac and PAxil) will take several weeks before they will have any effect on anxiety.  Also, it is worth noting that one of the possible side effects of these meds is an _increase_  in anxiety in the early stages.  You can get around this, if it’s a problem, by starting at a very low dose, and then working up to the therapeutic dose.  Also, a short-term prescription for a benzodiazepine can also help reduce anxiety in starting an SRI. Hope this helps, Hirsch address in header has been changed to avoid junk mail

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Please bear in mind that any of the SRI meds  (which include Prozac and PAxil) will take several weeks before they will have any effect on anxiety.  Also, it is worth noting that one of the possible side effects of these meds is an _increase_  in anxiety in the early stages.  You can get around this, if it’s a problem, by starting at a very low dose, and then working up to the therapeutic dose.  Also, a short-term prescription for a benzodiazepine can also help reduce anxiety in starting an SRI. Hope this helps, Hirsch address in header has been changed to avoid junk mail

PMJI,         What is a therapeutic dose of PAXIL.  I had a major PA ( had to get out of the car and calm down ) on a trip to new York one Sunday a month and a half ago and after that incident the next week was hell even had problems driving alone, then went to see a Psychiatrist he prescribed the PAXIL. after that could drive alone a little better.  I started at 10mg for a month and felt a only slightly better. On Sunday I moved up to 20mgs and then On Christmas eve I had to drive the family and our au-pare 45 mins away and although I had pins and needles in my hands and mild anxiesty i finished the trip up with no major problems,  once there no problemns and on the way home only  slight anxiety. ( better I think???) now I am wondering what to expect and what is the dose….. Thanks John A quiet sufferer for 15 years……

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My doctor is moving me from prozac to paxil; she is under the impression that paxil has an advantage over prozac in handling anxiety. I am not good at search the literature; can anyone confirm or deny my doctor’s impression (for one thing, I dread the change-over period). Kristin —                     Kristin Rachael Hayward                 http://130.111.120.13/~hayward

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My doctor is moving me from prozac to paxil; she is under the impression that paxil has an advantage over prozac in handling anxiety. I am not good at search the literature; can anyone confirm or deny my doctor’s impression (for one thing, I dread the change-over period).

If I recall, Paxil has US approval for anxiety problems – but I’m not sure whether that means it’s any better as such. As I understand it, it just means the manufacturer has bothered to get it approved for that purpose. Anecdotally, I have heard it claimed that it is better for this use than Prozac, but I’m not aware of any studies that prove that. If Prozac hasn’t been ‘doing the trick’, it’s a popular alternative though. Good luck with it! — Gary Cooper

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