Question:

I posted earlier that it’s starting to seem that albuterol is either not working, or, is actually starting to tighten me up, rather than loosen me up (paradoxical reaction?).  I seem to be tight all the time (have been checked for heart and other lung issues, but, nothing shows up). I finally convinced my doctor to try me on another MDI, so, he gave me Alupent.  I’ve tried it twice today (first time 2 puffs, second time, 8 hours later, three puffs, and don’t really see that it does anything–my pulse isn’t even going up, and, I don’t have any kind of nervous feeling. Any others have experiences with this? TIA!

Response:

Yep, I have asthma–all my life, and I’m 50.  I’m using Flovent and Serevent, too.  My doctor wanted to try me on MaxAir, rather than Alupent, but, the Pharmacy doesn’t stock it.  I’ve used the Alupent several times, and, it doesn’t really seem to do…anything–not even making my heart race. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I posted earlier that it’s starting to seem that albuterol is either not working, or, is actually starting to tighten me up, rather than loosen me up (paradoxical reaction?).  I seem to be tight all the time (have been checked for heart and other lung issues, but, nothing shows up). I finally convinced my doctor to try me on another MDI, so, he gave me Alupent.  I’ve tried it twice today (first time 2 puffs, second time, 8 hours later, three puffs, and don’t really see that it does anything–my pulse isn’t even going up, and, I don’t have any kind of nervous feeling. Any others have experiences with this? TIA! Alupent is generaly not considered as good a beta2-agonist bronchodilator for asthma, as albuterol. Alupent is not listed as a preferred drug in the latest asthma guidelines. There are other beta2 agonists that are listed, like terbutaline & pirbuterol. It sounds like you may need a steroid inhaler for long term maintenance; like Pulmicort or Flovent. Have you had PFTs [pulmonary function tests] to demonstrate you have asthma? Ellis

Response:

Question:

I’d like to hear any first-hand accounts from anyone who has made such a switch.  I’ve been maintaining quite well on Serevent, but if there’s a consensus that Accolate is even better, then I’ll consider changing too! — peterh at p b t dot com … Seattle WA "Would you excuse me?  I cut my foot just now, and my shoe is filling up with blood."  -"Romy & Michelle’s High School Reunion"

Response:

I’d like to hear any first-hand accounts from anyone who has made such a switch.  I’ve been maintaining quite well on Serevent, but if there’s a consensus that Accolate is even better, then I’ll consider changing too! —

Accolate is a pill you take twice a day on an empty stomach. That means 1 hr before eating or 2 hr after eating. Can be a hassle. If considering this approach suggest you consider the newly released Singulair, a pill you take once/day. Doesn’t have to be an empty stomach. See www.singulair.com Singulair works on the same principle as Accolate, and is as effective or more effective. During the transition period I think you might need to take both meds. Note–Serevent is not usually used alone, usually used with long acting asthma preventors like steroid inhalers. If Singulair is successful for you, you might be able to control your asthma with it and an occasional puff of Ventolin/Proventil. Ellis

Response:

I switched from Accolate to Singulair without having to use both medications during the transition.   Singulair seems to be working very well, but I also use Serevent and Flovent in the morning and at night. Laura – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’d like to hear any first-hand accounts from anyone who has made such a switch.  I’ve been maintaining quite well on Serevent, but if there’s a consensus that Accolate is even better, then I’ll consider changing too! — Accolate is a pill you take twice a day on an empty stomach. That means 1 hr before eating or 2 hr after eating. Can be a hassle. If considering this approach suggest you consider the newly released Singulair, a pill you take once/day. Doesn’t have to be an empty stomach. See www.singulair.com Singulair works on the same principle as Accolate, and is as effective or more effective. During the transition period I think you might need to take both meds. Note–Serevent is not usually used alone, usually used with long acting asthma preventors like steroid inhalers. If Singulair is successful for you, you might be able to control your asthma with it and an occasional puff of Ventolin/Proventil. Ellis

Response:

I recently switched from accolate to Singulair.  My doctor had me quit Accolate cold turkey, and begin on Singulair that night.  I expirenced no problems during the transition, and furthermore I am breathing even better now that I am on the Singulair.  It is also a big plus because I don’t have to adjust my eating schedule around my meds.

Response:

I switched from Accolate to Singulair without having to use both medications during the transition.   Singulair seems to be working very well, but I also use Serevent and Flovent in the morning and at night. Laura

To clarify what I meant: During the transition from Serevent to Accolate, or a transition from Serevent to Singulair, you might need to take both meds (the long- acting bronchodilator Serevent and the antileukotriene Accolate or Singulair). Accolate and Singulair work on the same principle, and seem to be equally effective; the advantage being toward the newer drug Singulair since it is only taken once a day instead of twice, and stomach doesn’t have to be empty. However the exact use of the new antileukotriene drugs in asthma therapy has not yet been determined. (See Expert Panel Report 2) Ellis

Response:

Question:

Top post Rick I have my panic/anxiety under management ATM having used quite a few of the excellent suggestions you posted. I love the way you confronted the issues and constuctively offered opinion, ideas and options that are realistic and based on proven experience. I have extensive experience in dealing with anxiety and still found your post to provide better ways of taking control of anxiety situations. I found this particular part most interesting for me: It turned out to be better to take control of the situation by accepting my symptoms for what they were (simply my body’s physical reaction to being over stressed). Instead of trying to resist the feelings, I take control and using other coping skills (deep breathing, and especially positive self-talk such as ICHI) to minimize their affect until my symptoms have disappeared.

For situational panic I wish I could learn to apply this technique better. I am almost there but still find I use distraction as a way to manage. I am still too afraid to let a panic (derealisation in my case) to ride through me. BTW what is ICHI? Also, I am going to try and find your original post as I’m keen to have a look at your website as I work in web and eLearning design field. I am a novice trying to learn "Authorware" and it is very hard. P.S Like Meryl, I am from Melbourne Australia and if you wish to email me you just need to remove the "no spam" from my hotmail addy. take care, Vanessa [off to search for your first post}

- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text - Hi  Michelle, I hope you're feeling better and I am glad that you've found the ASAP newsgroup. You'll find that you are amongst people who know first hand what you are experiencing and I'm sure someone here at ASAP will be able to help you find the answer(s) you seek. Before I offer my advice, I want to first compliment you on your determination to overcome your anxiety "monsters". Rather than choosing the role of the victim of your situation, you have chosen to take control of your problem and find out how to beat it. Not letting your anxiety take control of you takes real courage (which is ironic considering how much we worry in our lives). So again my sincere, heartfelt congratulations! When I first started experiencing my anxiety disorder (over 10 years ago), I pretty much followed the self-help regime that you described in your post so let me start by saying that you have been making excellent choices. I'm sorry that they haven't given you the results you were hoping for. Maybe some of my experiences below will give you insights as to why these skills haven't been helping you, because I am at a loss to understand their ineffectiveness. The coping skills you've been practicing are the ones recommended by many anxiety experts. When my anxiety got out of control, I too started exercising regularly. I also went to a therapist and I practiced self-talk. I listened to relaxation tapes (rather than the meditation route). Like yourself, I even focused on doing something else when the panic attacks kicked in to try and keep my mind distracted to keep me from worrying about the symptoms I was feeling. Also like yourself, my doctor prescribed Paxil for me, but in my case the meds actually helped (despite some unwanted side effects). In response to your post, I would like to offer you (and anyone else reading this post) six suggestions as well as five additional coping skills that I use and find particularly useful. You may have tried some of them and not mentioned them in your post, but hopefully you'll find something worth trying. I prefer to write a lot (because I want to help as many people as I can in dealing with this problem), so feel free to skip the points that don't apply to you. Others may read this post and some of my advice, which isn't applicable to your situation, may help them. (By the way, if you would like to know my story, feel free to read my very first post to ASAP entitled "Hello ASAP from a Newbie" posted on March 20, 2004. You'll find my introduction to the group and hopefully recognize that the advice that follows comes from someone who really understands first hand what a drag anxiety disorder can be for us.) MY SIX SUGGESTIONS Suggestion #1: Seek Out a Local Support Group One thing you didn't list in your post was whether or not you have sought out an anxiety support group in your own city (as opposed to on the Web). If you haven't, I would suggest that you do so. You're sure to get good advice here in cyberspace, but there is something to be said for face-to-face communication and as humans, we need the company of other people - the glowing smiles, the voices of concern (and even the occasional encouraging hug). Joining a real world support group also gives you the opportunity to get out of the house (which can be an added benefit to those suffering from depression or feeling agoraphobic). Family and friends can certainly offer you support, but being amongst people who truly know what you're going through can be extremely beneficial, both emotional and educationally - I know it certainly was for me. If you agree, consider talking to your counsellor or doctor and see if they know of a local support group. Of course, please continue visiting ASAP because you'll find good advice and support here, too. And when you do find your solution, please be sure to share your story here since we do care. Besides, your post perhaps could inspire others. Suggestion #2: Keep Practicing Your Coping Skills, Even If You Feeling Fine You write in your post that you have always been able to identify your trigger. I'm glad to read this because that suggests to me that you are aware that dealing with anxiety disorder can be a lifetime challenge. I made the mistake of thinking that once I beat it the first time, I was "cured". I stopped exercising regularly, I went back to my bad habit of listening to my negative voice and I started drinking more coffee. So my second suggestion may not necessarily be for you but for anyone else who is reading this post. Once you have overcome your anxiety disorder, don't make the mistake that I made and think you've beaten it forever. If you don't learn how to manage your anxiety properly, the panic attacks will return. Suggestion #3: Avoidance Is Not an Effective Coping Skill As I wrote in my previous suggestion, not only was I not managing my anxiety, I was actually putting out the welcome mat for its return. I made the mistake of thinking that avoidance was a coping skill! (I was not being assertive  nor was I confronting the problems I had with co-workers.) By not resolving my difficulties at my workplace, I just added those concerns to my worry pile and eventually the pile grew so large, it collapsed on me. Suggestion #4: Avoid Self Medication - It's Only a Temporary Solution I was avoiding confronting the underlining causes of  my stress by self-medicating. Fortunately I didn't turn to drugs or alcohol (because my father was an alcoholic). My medicine of choice was TV and I used it to tune out life's stresses and block out my negative thinking. Suggestion #5: Watch What Your Telling Yourself I've done a lot of research on anxiety disorder over the years and one truism I've learned is this: What you tell yourself is what you believe. If you tell yourself that you can't overcome your anxiety, then you can't. (After all, why would you lie to yourself?) If you say that you can't ride a bus, won't get into an elevator, etc., you can't and you won't. And worst of all, by not facing your stress triggers, you're subconsciously validating these false assumptions. If it's true that you believe the negative things you tell yourself, it's equally true that you believe the positive things. For example, say you have a problem with elevators. If instead of saying you can't ride on elevators, you start saying that you can. Eventually you will be able to do so. Maybe not right away, but you can do it. You just need to believe it, really want it and with the right coping skills, particularly coping skill #1 visualization (see below) and self-talk, you can accomplish it. I mean, it's riding an elevator, it's not flying to the top of the building. People ride elevators everyday. Those that don't are, truth be known, unable to do so simply because they tell themselves they can't. With any challenge, first clearly define the goal you want to accomplish (e.g., riding in elevators) and then clearly see the reward you'll get from reaching your goal (so you'll do the work needed to overcome the challenge). Next, set the steps you'll need to accomplish your goal. One bit of advice: if you are someone who gets easily discouraged, work in small steps. Begin by listening to relaxation tapes to calm your mind.  It's also important to be exercising regularly so that you'll be physically ready to take on your "challenge". Next (continuing with the elevator example), begin visualizing getting on the elevator, see yourself feeling calm and peaceful. See the experience as a positive, unstressful moment (as it probably was earlier in your life). Repeat the visualization as often as you feel is necessary. Remind yourself the importance of your goal and then go to the elevator. Pick one that's empty. Take a friend along for support if necessary. Be sure that your friend clearly understands your problem and will be supportive. Also be sure that your friend wants you to get better because some friends don't (they may want you to remain helpless because then you'll need to rely on them). Fill your lungs with a deep breath to

... read more »

Response:

that's a really incredible post! One to save, for sure. -regards, z _

- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text - Hi  Michelle, I hope you're feeling better and I am glad that you've found the ASAP newsgroup. You'll find that you are amongst people who know first hand what you are experiencing and I'm sure someone here at ASAP will be able to help you find the answer(s) you seek. Before I offer my advice, I want to first compliment you on your determination to overcome your anxiety "monsters". Rather than choosing the role of the victim of your situation, you have chosen to take control of your problem and find out how to beat it. Not letting your anxiety take control of you takes real courage (which is ironic considering how much we worry in our lives). So again my sincere, heartfelt congratulations! When I first started experiencing my anxiety disorder (over 10 years ago), I pretty much followed the self-help regime that you described in your post so let me start by saying that you have been making excellent choices. I'm sorry that they haven't given you the results you were hoping for. Maybe some of my experiences below will give you insights as to why these skills haven't been helping you, because I am at a loss to understand their ineffectiveness. The coping skills you've been practicing are the ones recommended by many anxiety experts. When my anxiety got out of control, I too started exercising regularly. I also went to a therapist and I practiced self-talk. I listened to relaxation tapes (rather than the meditation route). Like yourself, I even focused on doing something else when the panic attacks kicked in to try and keep my mind distracted to keep me from worrying about the symptoms I was feeling. Also like yourself, my doctor prescribed Paxil for me, but in my case the meds actually helped (despite some unwanted side effects). In response to your post, I would like to offer you (and anyone else reading this post) six suggestions as well as five additional coping skills that I use and find particularly useful. You may have tried some of them and not mentioned them in your post, but hopefully you'll find something worth trying. I prefer to write a lot (because I want to help as many people as I can in dealing with this problem), so feel free to skip the points that don't apply to you. Others may read this post and some of my advice, which isn't applicable to your situation, may help them. (By the way, if you would like to know my story, feel free to read my very first post to ASAP entitled "Hello ASAP from a Newbie" posted on March 20, 2004. You'll find my introduction to the group and hopefully recognize that the advice that follows comes from someone who really understands first hand what a drag anxiety disorder can be for us.) MY SIX SUGGESTIONS Suggestion #1: Seek Out a Local Support Group One thing you didn't list in your post was whether or not you have sought out an anxiety support group in your own city (as opposed to on the Web). If you haven't, I would suggest that you do so. You're sure to get good advice here in cyberspace, but there is something to be said for face-to-face communication and as humans, we need the company of other people - the glowing smiles, the voices of concern (and even the occasional encouraging hug). Joining a real world support group also gives you the opportunity to get out of the house (which can be an added benefit to those suffering from depression or feeling agoraphobic). Family and friends can certainly offer you support, but being amongst people who truly know what you're going through can be extremely beneficial, both emotional and educationally - I know it certainly was for me. If you agree, consider talking to your counsellor or doctor and see if they know of a local support group. Of course, please continue visiting ASAP because you'll find good advice and support here, too. And when you do find your solution, please be sure to share your story here since we do care. Besides, your post perhaps could inspire others. Suggestion #2: Keep Practicing Your Coping Skills, Even If You Feeling Fine You write in your post that you have always been able to identify your trigger. I'm glad to read this because that suggests to me that you are aware that dealing with anxiety disorder can be a lifetime challenge. I made the mistake of thinking that once I beat it the first time, I was "cured". I stopped exercising regularly, I went back to my bad habit of listening to my negative voice and I started drinking more coffee. So my second suggestion may not necessarily be for you but for anyone else who is reading this post. Once you have overcome your anxiety disorder, don't make the mistake that I made and think you've beaten it forever. If you don't learn how to manage your anxiety properly, the panic attacks will return. Suggestion #3: Avoidance Is Not an Effective Coping Skill As I wrote in my previous suggestion, not only was I not managing my anxiety, I was actually putting out the welcome mat for its return. I made the mistake of thinking that avoidance was a coping skill! (I was not being assertive  nor was I confronting the problems I had with co-workers.) By not resolving my difficulties at my workplace, I just added those concerns to my worry pile and eventually the pile grew so large, it collapsed on me. Suggestion #4: Avoid Self Medication - It's Only a Temporary Solution I was avoiding confronting the underlining causes of  my stress by self-medicating. Fortunately I didn't turn to drugs or alcohol (because my father was an alcoholic). My medicine of choice was TV and I used it to tune out life's stresses and block out my negative thinking. Suggestion #5: Watch What Your Telling Yourself I've done a lot of research on anxiety disorder over the years and one truism I've learned is this: What you tell yourself is what you believe. If you tell yourself that you can't overcome your anxiety, then you can't. (After all, why would you lie to yourself?) If you say that you can't ride a bus, won't get into an elevator, etc., you can't and you won't. And worst of all, by not facing your stress triggers, you're subconsciously validating these false assumptions. If it's true that you believe the negative things you tell yourself, it's equally true that you believe the positive things. For example, say you have a problem with elevators. If instead of saying you can't ride on elevators, you start saying that you can. Eventually you will be able to do so. Maybe not right away, but you can do it. You just need to believe it, really want it and with the right coping skills, particularly coping skill #1 visualization (see below) and self-talk, you can accomplish it. I mean, it's riding an elevator, it's not flying to the top of the building. People ride elevators everyday. Those that don't are, truth be known, unable to do so simply because they tell themselves they can't. With any challenge, first clearly define the goal you want to accomplish (e.g., riding in elevators) and then clearly see the reward you'll get from reaching your goal (so you'll do the work needed to overcome the challenge). Next, set the steps you'll need to accomplish your goal. One bit of advice: if you are someone who gets easily discouraged, work in small steps. Begin by listening to relaxation tapes to calm your mind.  It's also important to be exercising regularly so that you'll be physically ready to take on your "challenge". Next (continuing with the elevator example), begin visualizing getting on the elevator, see yourself feeling calm and peaceful. See the experience as a positive, unstressful moment (as it probably was earlier in your life). Repeat the visualization as often as you feel is necessary. Remind yourself the importance of your goal and then go to the elevator. Pick one that's empty. Take a friend along for support if necessary. Be sure that your friend clearly understands your problem and will be supportive. Also be sure that your friend wants you to get better because some friends don't (they may want you to remain helpless because then you'll need to rely on them). Fill your lungs with a deep breath to help relax you, use positive self-talk, get on the elevator and press the button. Some people with severe anxiety need to have the added assurance of an "out" before they begin overcoming their challenge. In the case of the elevator, the out would be permission to get exit before the door closes. Maybe, at first, just getting on the elevator will be all you can do. Maybe you'll be able to ride it up only one or two floors. Or maybe you'll ride it to the top and then wonder how this could have ever been a problem for you. Your anxiety may be so strong that you'll turn away and not even make the attempt. All these scenarios could happen. The important thing is that you made the effort to control your anxiety (rather than have it control you.) If you made it to the top, congratulate yourself and use the experience as ammunition to confront your next challenge. If on the other hand, you didn't accomplish your goal, don't focus on your "failure" but rather focus on the courage you showed in making the attempt. Recognize that you have that courage, and just work harder to prepare yourself for the next attempt. Lower your expectations and maybe set a new goal of just getting on the elevator. Get on and then get off. Repeat that until your inner voice tells you that you're ready to take the next step

... read more »

Response:

Hi Michelle - After reading Rick's response, I don't think there's much left to cover! But I felt I should post anyway.  It definitely takes time to find the answers. Different methods work for different people.  So, don't give up! If you don't feel well, work with your doctor in trying different combinations of therapy/meds. Sometimes it really is a trial&error type of situation.  Hang in there. -take care, z [aka rob]

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have been a really anxious person all of my life, but have always been able to identify the trigger.  That is until last September.  I often feel like I am off balance, shaky, weak, dizzy, like one more movement and I will colapse.  I tried to take paxil but got brutally sick.  I am now on Effexor 150 mg.  I started it in October.  The problem is that the symptom still come and last all day. I have tried exercise, meditation (but I can’t concentrate), focusing on doing something else, self talk, I’ve talked to a counsellor, and nothing eases the symptoms. They last until I am at the point I am ready to give up before they ease. Does anyone have any ideas of anything I can try.

Response:

I have been a really anxious person all of my life, but have always been able to identify the trigger.  That is until last September.  I often feel like I am off balance, shaky, weak, dizzy, like one more movement and I will colapse.

Sometimes there are no triggers and I’ve had all those symptoms above. Of course it could be the actual anxiety itself causing you worry and well, have more anxiety. That’s the vicious circle. I tried to take paxil but got brutally sick.  I am now on Effexor 150 mg.  I started it in October.  The problem is that the symptom still come and last all day. I have tried exercise, meditation (but I can’t concentrate), focusing on doing something else, self talk, I’ve talked to a counsellor, and nothing eases the symptoms. They last until I am at the point I am ready to give up before they ease. Does anyone have any ideas of anything I can try.

I’ve tried Paxil myself for 3 months to help my anxiety. It made it worse in my case as well. I’m on Xanax to help with my PA’s but still have anxiety daily. I notice you mentioned you just about hit rock bottom before it eases up. Well, that’s what I’ve learned in my case too. So after a certain amount of time I’ve come to realize that fighting those symptoms has this effect. It’s scary but if you just let them happen you’ll see they go away much faster and after a while less often. It took me a while to build up enough courage to not flee situations (whatever that may be in your case) when they occur but I did and glad I did. The worse of my symptom was nearly passing out but this has never happened in the last 8 years dealing with anxiety. Good Luck!

Response:

Boy Rick, This is brilliant. I an saving it. There is too much for me to digest in one reading. Truly inspirational and very practical. Meryl – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi  Michelle, I hope you’re feeling better and I am glad that you’ve found the ASAP newsgroup. You’ll find that you are amongst people who know first hand what you are experiencing and I’m sure someone here at ASAP will be able to help you find the answer(s) you seek. Before I offer my advice, I want to first compliment you on your determination to overcome your anxiety "monsters". Rather than choosing the role of the victim of your situation, you have chosen to take control of your problem and find out how to beat it. Not letting your anxiety take control of you takes real courage (which is ironic considering how much we worry in our lives). So again my sincere, heartfelt congratulations! When I first started experiencing my anxiety disorder (over 10 years ago), I pretty much followed the self-help regime that you described in your post so let me start by saying that you have been making excellent choices. I’m sorry that they haven’t given you the results you were hoping for. Maybe some of my experiences below will give you insights as to why these skills haven’t been helping you, because I am at a loss to understand their ineffectiveness. The coping skills you’ve been practicing are the ones recommended by many anxiety experts. When my anxiety got out of control, I too started exercising regularly. I also went to a therapist and I practiced self-talk. I listened to relaxation tapes (rather than the meditation route). Like yourself, I even focused on doing something else when the panic attacks kicked in to try and keep my mind distracted to keep me from worrying about the symptoms I was feeling. Also like yourself, my doctor prescribed Paxil for me, but in my case the meds actually helped (despite some unwanted side effects). In response to your post, I would like to offer you (and anyone else reading this post) six suggestions as well as five additional coping skills that I use and find particularly useful. You may have tried some of them and not mentioned them in your post, but hopefully you’ll find something worth trying. I prefer to write a lot (because I want to help as many people as I can in dealing with this problem), so feel free to skip the points that don’t apply to you. Others may read this post and some of my advice, which isn’t applicable to your situation, may help them. (By the way, if you would like to know my story, feel free to read my very first post to ASAP entitled "Hello ASAP from a Newbie" posted on March 20, 2004. You’ll find my introduction to the group and hopefully recognize that the advice that follows comes from someone who really understands first hand what a drag anxiety disorder can be for us.) MY SIX SUGGESTIONS Suggestion #1: Seek Out a Local Support Group One thing you didn’t list in your post was whether or not you have sought out an anxiety support group in your own city (as opposed to on the Web). If you haven’t, I would suggest that you do so. You’re sure to get good advice here in cyberspace, but there is something to be said for face-to-face communication and as humans, we need the company of other people – the glowing smiles, the voices of concern (and even the occasional encouraging hug). Joining a real world support group also gives you the opportunity to get out of the house (which can be an added benefit to those suffering from depression or feeling agoraphobic). Family and friends can certainly offer you support, but being amongst people who truly know what you’re going through can be extremely beneficial, both emotional and educationally – I know it certainly was for me. If you agree, consider talking to your counsellor or doctor and see if they know of a local support group. Of course, please continue visiting ASAP because you’ll find good advice and support here, too. And when you do find your solution, please be sure to share your story here since we do care. Besides, your post perhaps could inspire others. Suggestion #2: Keep Practicing Your Coping Skills, Even If You Feeling Fine You write in your post that you have always been able to identify your trigger. I’m glad to read this because that suggests to me that you are aware that dealing with anxiety disorder can be a lifetime challenge. I made the mistake of thinking that once I beat it the first time, I was "cured". I stopped exercising regularly, I went back to my bad habit of listening to my negative voice and I started drinking more coffee. So my second suggestion may not necessarily be for you but for anyone else who is reading this post. Once you have overcome your anxiety disorder, don’t make the mistake that I made and think you’ve beaten it forever. If you don’t learn how to manage your anxiety properly, the panic attacks will return. Suggestion #3: Avoidance Is Not an Effective Coping Skill As I wrote in my previous suggestion, not only was I not managing my anxiety, I was actually putting out the welcome mat for its return. I made the mistake of thinking that avoidance was a coping skill! (I was not being assertive  nor was I confronting the problems I had with co-workers.) By not resolving my difficulties at my workplace, I just added those concerns to my worry pile and eventually the pile grew so large, it collapsed on me. Suggestion #4: Avoid Self Medication – It’s Only a Temporary Solution I was avoiding confronting the underlining causes of  my stress by self-medicating. Fortunately I didn’t turn to drugs or alcohol (because my father was an alcoholic). My medicine of choice was TV and I used it to tune out life’s stresses and block out my negative thinking. Suggestion #5: Watch What Your Telling Yourself I’ve done a lot of research on anxiety disorder over the years and one truism I’ve learned is this: What you tell yourself is what you believe. If you tell yourself that you can’t overcome your anxiety, then you can’t. (After all, why would you lie to yourself?) If you say that you can’t ride a bus, won’t get into an elevator, etc., you can’t and you won’t. And worst of all, by not facing your stress triggers, you’re subconsciously validating these false assumptions. If it’s true that you believe the negative things you tell yourself, it’s equally true that you believe the positive things. For example, say you have a problem with elevators. If instead of saying you can’t ride on elevators, you start saying that you can. Eventually you will be able to do so. Maybe not right away, but you can do it. You just need to believe it, really want it and with the right coping skills, particularly coping skill #1 visualization (see below) and self-talk, you can accomplish it. I mean, it’s riding an elevator, it’s not flying to the top of the building. People ride elevators everyday. Those that don’t are, truth be known, unable to do so simply because they tell themselves they can’t. With any challenge, first clearly define the goal you want to accomplish (e.g., riding in elevators) and then clearly see the reward you’ll get from reaching your goal (so you’ll do the work needed to overcome the challenge). Next, set the steps you’ll need to accomplish your goal. One bit of advice: if you are someone who gets easily discouraged, work in small steps. Begin by listening to relaxation tapes to calm your mind.  It’s also important to be exercising regularly so that you’ll be physically ready to take on your "challenge". Next (continuing with the elevator example), begin visualizing getting on the elevator, see yourself feeling calm and peaceful. See the experience as a positive, unstressful moment (as it probably was earlier in your life). Repeat the visualization as often as you feel is necessary. Remind yourself the importance of your goal and then go to the elevator. Pick one that’s empty. Take a friend along for support if necessary. Be sure that your friend clearly understands your problem and will be supportive. Also be sure that your friend wants you to get better because some friends don’t (they may want you to remain helpless because then you’ll need to rely on them). Fill your lungs with a deep breath to help relax you, use positive self-talk, get on the elevator and press the button. Some people with severe anxiety need to have the added assurance of an "out" before they begin overcoming their challenge. In the case of the elevator, the out would be permission to get exit before the door closes. Maybe, at first, just getting on the elevator will be all you can do. Maybe you’ll be able to ride it up only one or two floors. Or maybe you’ll ride it to the top and then wonder how this could have ever been a problem for you. Your anxiety may be so strong that you’ll turn away and not even make the attempt. All these scenarios could happen. The important thing is that you made the effort to control your anxiety (rather than have it control you.) If you made it to the top, congratulate yourself and use the experience as ammunition to confront your next challenge. If on the other hand, you didn’t accomplish your goal, don’t focus on your "failure" but rather focus on the courage you showed in making the attempt. Recognize that you have that courage, and just work harder to prepare yourself for the next attempt. Lower your expectations and maybe set a new goal of just getting on the elevator. Get on and then get off. Repeat that until your inner voice tells you that you’re ready to take the next step (but remember to listen to your true inner voice, not the negative voice that has been lying to you about being unable to do the normal activities that you

… read more »

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I have been a really anxious person all of my life, but have always been able to identify the trigger.  That is until last September.  I often feel like I am off balance, shaky, weak, dizzy, like one more movement and I will colapse.  I tried to take paxil but got brutally sick.  I am now on Effexor 150 mg.  I started it in October.  The problem is that the symptom still come and last all day. I have tried exercise, meditation (but I can’t concentrate), focusing on doing something else, self talk, I’ve talked to a counsellor, and nothing eases the symptoms. They last until I am at the point I am ready to give up before they ease. Does anyone have any ideas of anything I can try.

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Meds are often a hard thing to get right with conditions like ours.  I would suggest you talk to your doctor about switching meds.  I ended up trying a couple before I found the right combo for me, and you will find that is most peoples experience.  Paxil is rather difficult to get on so I would not feel bad about not being able to do it.  Effexor is a good one if it works for you, but in this case it does not seem to be.  There are several other meds out there and experiences going on them varies by individual.  If you feel the initial side effects are a bit much maybe your doc can give you a benzo to get you over the initial period.  For now hang in there, and good Luck! d

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have been a really anxious person all of my life, but have always been able to identify the trigger.  That is until last September.  I often feel like I am off balance, shaky, weak, dizzy, like one more movement and I will colapse.  I tried to take paxil but got brutally sick.  I am now on Effexor 150 mg.  I started it in October.  The problem is that the symptom still come and last all day. I have tried exercise, meditation (but I can’t concentrate), focusing on doing something else, self talk, I’ve talked to a counsellor, and nothing eases the symptoms. They last until I am at the point I am ready to give up before they ease. Does anyone have any ideas of anything I can try.

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Hi  Michelle, I hope you’re feeling better and I am glad that you’ve found the ASAP newsgroup. You’ll find that you are amongst people who know first hand what you are experiencing and I’m sure someone here at ASAP will be able to help you find the answer(s) you seek. Before I offer my advice, I want to first compliment you on your determination to overcome your anxiety "monsters". Rather than choosing the role of the victim of your situation, you have chosen to take control of your problem and find out how to beat it. Not letting your anxiety take control of you takes real courage (which is ironic considering how much we worry in our lives). So again my sincere, heartfelt congratulations! When I first started experiencing my anxiety disorder (over 10 years ago), I pretty much followed the self-help regime that you described in your post so let me start by saying that you have been making excellent choices. I’m sorry that they haven’t given you the results you were hoping for. Maybe some of my experiences below will give you insights as to why these skills haven’t been helping you, because I am at a loss to understand their ineffectiveness. The coping skills you’ve been practicing are the ones recommended by many anxiety experts. When my anxiety got out of control, I too started exercising regularly. I also went to a therapist and I practiced self-talk. I listened to relaxation tapes (rather than the meditation route). Like yourself, I even focused on doing something else when the panic attacks kicked in to try and keep my mind distracted to keep me from worrying about the symptoms I was feeling. Also like yourself, my doctor prescribed Paxil for me, but in my case the meds actually helped (despite some unwanted side effects). In response to your post, I would like to offer you (and anyone else reading this post) six suggestions as well as five additional coping skills that I use and find particularly useful. You may have tried some of them and not mentioned them in your post, but hopefully you’ll find something worth trying. I prefer to write a lot (because I want to help as many people as I can in dealing with this problem), so feel free to skip the points that don’t apply to you. Others may read this post and some of my advice, which isn’t applicable to your situation, may help them. (By the way, if you would like to know my story, feel free to read my very first post to ASAP entitled "Hello ASAP from a Newbie" posted on March 20, 2004. You’ll find my introduction to the group and hopefully recognize that the advice that follows comes from someone who really understands first hand what a drag anxiety disorder can be for us.) MY SIX SUGGESTIONS Suggestion #1: Seek Out a Local Support Group One thing you didn’t list in your post was whether or not you have sought out an anxiety support group in your own city (as opposed to on the Web). If you haven’t, I would suggest that you do so. You’re sure to get good advice here in cyberspace, but there is something to be said for face-to-face communication and as humans, we need the company of other people – the glowing smiles, the voices of concern (and even the occasional encouraging hug). Joining a real world support group also gives you the opportunity to get out of the house (which can be an added benefit to those suffering from depression or feeling agoraphobic). Family and friends can certainly offer you support, but being amongst people who truly know what you’re going through can be extremely beneficial, both emotional and educationally – I know it certainly was for me. If you agree, consider talking to your counsellor or doctor and see if they know of a local support group. Of course, please continue visiting ASAP because you’ll find good advice and support here, too. And when you do find your solution, please be sure to share your story here since we do care. Besides, your post perhaps could inspire others. Suggestion #2: Keep Practicing Your Coping Skills, Even If You Feeling Fine You write in your post that you have always been able to identify your trigger. I’m glad to read this because that suggests to me that you are aware that dealing with anxiety disorder can be a lifetime challenge. I made the mistake of thinking that once I beat it the first time, I was "cured". I stopped exercising regularly, I went back to my bad habit of listening to my negative voice and I started drinking more coffee. So my second suggestion may not necessarily be for you but for anyone else who is reading this post. Once you have overcome your anxiety disorder, don’t make the mistake that I made and think you’ve beaten it forever. If you don’t learn how to manage your anxiety properly, the panic attacks will return. Suggestion #3: Avoidance Is Not an Effective Coping Skill As I wrote in my previous suggestion, not only was I not managing my anxiety, I was actually putting out the welcome mat for its return. I made the mistake of thinking that avoidance was a coping skill! (I was not being assertive  nor was I confronting the problems I had with co-workers.) By not resolving my difficulties at my workplace, I just added those concerns to my worry pile and eventually the pile grew so large, it collapsed on me. Suggestion #4: Avoid Self Medication – It’s Only a Temporary Solution I was avoiding confronting the underlining causes of  my stress by self-medicating. Fortunately I didn’t turn to drugs or alcohol (because my father was an alcoholic). My medicine of choice was TV and I used it to tune out life’s stresses and block out my negative thinking. Suggestion #5: Watch What Your Telling Yourself I’ve done a lot of research on anxiety disorder over the years and one truism I’ve learned is this: What you tell yourself is what you believe. If you tell yourself that you can’t overcome your anxiety, then you can’t. (After all, why would you lie to yourself?) If you say that you can’t ride a bus, won’t get into an elevator, etc., you can’t and you won’t. And worst of all, by not facing your stress triggers, you’re subconsciously validating these false assumptions. If it’s true that you believe the negative things you tell yourself, it’s equally true that you believe the positive things. For example, say you have a problem with elevators. If instead of saying you can’t ride on elevators, you start saying that you can. Eventually you will be able to do so. Maybe not right away, but you can do it. You just need to believe it, really want it and with the right coping skills, particularly coping skill #1 visualization (see below) and self-talk, you can accomplish it. I mean, it’s riding an elevator, it’s not flying to the top of the building. People ride elevators everyday. Those that don’t are, truth be known, unable to do so simply because they tell themselves they can’t. With any challenge, first clearly define the goal you want to accomplish (e.g., riding in elevators) and then clearly see the reward you’ll get from reaching your goal (so you’ll do the work needed to overcome the challenge). Next, set the steps you’ll need to accomplish your goal. One bit of advice: if you are someone who gets easily discouraged, work in small steps. Begin by listening to relaxation tapes to calm your mind.  It’s also important to be exercising regularly so that you’ll be physically ready to take on your "challenge". Next (continuing with the elevator example), begin visualizing getting on the elevator, see yourself feeling calm and peaceful. See the experience as a positive, unstressful moment (as it probably was earlier in your life). Repeat the visualization as often as you feel is necessary. Remind yourself the importance of your goal and then go to the elevator. Pick one that’s empty. Take a friend along for support if necessary. Be sure that your friend clearly understands your problem and will be supportive. Also be sure that your friend wants you to get better because some friends don’t (they may want you to remain helpless because then you’ll need to rely on them). Fill your lungs with a deep breath to help relax you, use positive self-talk, get on the elevator and press the button. Some people with severe anxiety need to have the added assurance of an "out" before they begin overcoming their challenge. In the case of the elevator, the out would be permission to get exit before the door closes. Maybe, at first, just getting on the elevator will be all you can do. Maybe you’ll be able to ride it up only one or two floors. Or maybe you’ll ride it to the top and then wonder how this could have ever been a problem for you. Your anxiety may be so strong that you’ll turn away and not even make the attempt. All these scenarios could happen. The important thing is that you made the effort to control your anxiety (rather than have it control you.) If you made it to the top, congratulate yourself and use the experience as ammunition to confront your next challenge. If on the other hand, you didn’t accomplish your goal, don’t focus on your "failure" but rather focus on the courage you showed in making the attempt. Recognize that you have that courage, and just work harder to prepare yourself for the next attempt. Lower your expectations and maybe set a new goal of just getting on the elevator. Get on and then get off. Repeat that until your inner voice tells you that you’re ready to take the next step (but remember to listen to your true inner voice, not the negative voice that has been lying to you about being unable to do the normal activities that you really want to accomplish). Eventually you’ll overcome your challenge. Like everything else in life, it just takes work, practice, and time but most importantly the desire to succeed. Now elevators are probably not a problem for you, Michelle ,but if you are as anxious as you say you are, there’s probably something else you could substitute, such as a trip to the dentist. Whatever it is, … read more »

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Question:

I know I am highly suggestible. I see I just can’t read anything negative about anything right now…it’s not in my best interest. Lorri – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -And this is one of the reasons the anti benzo brigade get such a hard time here. Not because of the dependency issue, which is admitted – just check ASAP’s FAQ, but because they blow it out of all proportion and scare people off what can be a very useful group of anti-anx/pan meds. I had a very hard time with Xanax some years ago. But it wasn’t the med that was at fault, but my expectations that it would cause certain things to happen, based on what had been mostly misinformation. What some of these doom merchants fail to realise, or perhaps don’t care about, is that suggestions can be very powerful. I remember a study done many years ago which basically consisted of giving half the subjects a cup of warm milk just before bedtime and the other half got strong coffee. As expected the warm milk group slept soundly, while most of the coffee group couldn’t sleep at all. However, what they didn’t know was that the coffee was decaf and the warm milk was laced with about 3 strong coffees worth of caffeine. Tell folk that they are going to suffer the agonies of the damned when they wean of their benzo and most of them will. Yes, dependency is an issue, just as it is with many medications. Fail to wean slowly from beta blockers or many blood pressure meds and the withdrawal effect can be initially high blood pressure, quickly followed by zero blood pressure. Permanently zero BP!! Weaned from correctly, benzos usually don’t present any greater difficulty than most other dependency producing drugs. Indeed, on some evidence, they appear to be much easier to quit than aspirin (see my comments in the Aspirin thread).                                       Zu Enlil

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I know I am highly suggestible. I see I just can’t read anything negative about anything right now…it’s not in my best interest. Lorri

Dear Lorri, From one med phobic to another, what you are going through is very common. What I did when I was weaning on paxil was to *not* read any threads that had to do with Paxil. It took alot of willpower on my part to also not give into my urges to surf the net to read all about paxil.  Once you have been on the Klonopin for awhile and your anxiety has decreased, you should find that your suggestibility when it comes to Klonopin will decrease too. Take care Jackie

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Hi Jackie, Now I just pop it and try not to think too much about it. Hugs Lorri

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I know I am highly suggestible. I see I just can’t read anything negative about anything right now…it’s not in my best interest. Lorri

Lorri, I know a bit about meds and how they work, but my pharmacist knows that she should take the info sheets out of my AD packets!!!! Some things you just don’t need to think about.   Take care                                             Zu

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Thankfully, before and even after the lasik, these 45 yr old eyes couldn’t really read the tiny print of the inserts. Now if I only can keep off the websites! Lorri – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Lorri, I know a bit about meds and how they work, but my pharmacist knows that she should take the info sheets out of my AD packets!!!! Some things you just don’t need to think about.   Take care                                            Zu

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Hi Jackie, Now I just pop it and try not to think too much about it. Hugs Lorri

Hi Lorri, I can also relate to being very med phobic. I am very curious to know if the Klonopin is working for you so far. How are you feeling on it? Have you felt less anxious? Hugs, Steph

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Hi Stephanie, As of now my Zoloft dose is up to 50 mg and last night after a friend said something to me, I freaked and took .5mg of K. It seemed to calm me down somewhat. I’m going to ask my Dr if I might be better off taking a dose in the morning and in the evening. I kind of had an epiphany today. I drive for a living and put in more than 4 hours on the road….and boy do we have some rotten highways. Anyway, my anxiety level was kind of high and I just decided to except it, not try to fight it or push it away. Well, it worked. I feel much better when I’m not waiting for the inevitable doom to stike. Heres hoping that I can contine to reinforce this. (((((hugs)))) Lorri

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Hi Rita, It’s funny but taking the Zoloft doesnt scare me at all, it was the K that frightened me. I guess all the talk about dependence and addiction was part of the scare. I went up on a site last night to read about the K and I found myself getting scared…I dont think I read more than one line.

snipped And this is one of the reasons the anti benzo brigade get such a hard time here. Not because of the dependency issue, which is admitted – just check ASAP’s FAQ, but because they blow it out of all proportion and scare people off what can be a very useful group of anti-anx/pan meds. I had a very hard time with Xanax some years ago. But it wasn’t the med that was at fault, but my expectations that it would cause certain things to happen, based on what had been mostly misinformation. What some of these doom merchants fail to realise, or perhaps don’t care about, is that suggestions can be very powerful. I remember a study done many years ago which basically consisted of giving half the subjects a cup of warm milk just before bedtime and the other half got strong coffee. As expected the warm milk group slept soundly, while most of the coffee group couldn’t sleep at all. However, what they didn’t know was that the coffee was decaf and the warm milk was laced with about 3 strong coffees worth of caffeine. Tell folk that they are going to suffer the agonies of the damned when they wean of their benzo and most of them will. Yes, dependency is an issue, just as it is with many medications. Fail to wean slowly from beta blockers or many blood pressure meds and the withdrawal effect can be initially high blood pressure, quickly followed by zero blood pressure. Permanently zero BP!! Weaned from correctly, benzos usually don’t present any greater difficulty than most other dependency producing drugs. Indeed, on some evidence, they appear to be much easier to quit than aspirin (see my comments in the Aspirin thread).                                        Zu Enlil

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Followup: I got brave and took another 2.5 mg of K right before I went to bed last night. I did some serious relaxation exercises before hand and had one of the best sleeps I’ve had in weeks. I was also able to fall back to sleep when I woke up at 6AM. No, I dont intend to use it every night but I need it for now. I have med paranioa that makes me think my meds are going to have an opposite effect on me. I have to get over this. Lorri

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Followup: I got brave and took another 2.5 mg of K right before I went to bed last night. I did some serious relaxation exercises before hand and had one of the best sleeps I’ve had in weeks. I was also able to fall back to sleep when I woke up at 6AM. No, I dont intend to use it every night but I need it for now. I have med paranioa that makes me think my meds are going to have an opposite effect on me. I have to get over this. Lorri

good for you I’m proud of you for taking the med and confronting your fear as well as realizing it is your fear not a side effect you are feeling. LM

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Followup: I got brave and took another 2.5 mg of K right before I went to bed last night. I did some serious relaxation exercises before hand and had one of the best sleeps I’ve had in weeks. I was also able to fall back to sleep when I woke up at 6AM. No, I dont intend to use it every night but I need it for now. I have med paranioa that makes me think my meds are going to have an opposite effect on me. I have to get over this. Lorri

Most PAD-sufferers are med phobic. I know I am. And up to a point this can initially work against us. For example: when I started Xanax three years ago I had all the listed side effects plus some unlisted ones <g five minutes after I took the first pill…. As a matter of fact Dr. Shipko goes so far as to state that people who are really phobic of a new med shouldn’t take it because they will produce a *self-fulfilling prophecy*. I strongly disagree with his reasoning though. From my own experience (and that of many others) I know that a med will do its work properly because it *does* work…. regardless of what we think of it. In his view, I feel, *placebo* (or, rather *deplacebo*) is rated much too high. Although I agree that placebo effects play a large role in the treatment of PAD (and are, in the positive sense, proper effects too which can be put to good use) the substances in our meds are real enough just like penicilline will work even if we don’t believe it will. Also research has shown time and again that placebo may often occur but that nevertheless meds *do* work a whole lot better. You have now proven to yourself that Klonopin works, your *med paranoia* notwithstanding. Yes, you have to get over this, but just taking the med will do that for you. Philip

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I know I have to get over the fear..I figured I would "just do it" and NOT dwell on any "what ifs"…that part of my problem anyway, LOL. Sigh, this time my PAs were triggered by the Lasik surgery I had almost three weeks ago. This is NOT the thing to do if you have constant anxiety hanging over you. I swear they should give a pych test before doing the Lasik. The first 2 post lasik days were perfect, then the old fears of "OMG, what if my Dr made a mistake, what if he put the wrong corrections into the computer, what if I’m permently blinded, what if, what if, what if? Sheesh, does this train of throught sound familar?? Thankfully, my medical Dr told me that I just found a new focus for old fears and if it wasnt the lasik, I would still be dwelling on brain tumors, cancer, etc! Thanks for caring! Lorri – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -good for you I’m proud of you for taking the med and confronting your fear as well as realizing it is your fear not a side effect you are feeling. LM

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Thankfully, my medical Dr told me that I just found a new focus for old fears and if it wasnt the lasik, I would still be dwelling on brain tumors,

he is correct–you have a persoanlity style that worries and this worry will attach itself onto any credible tangible thing it can-what you can learn to do with cbt is slow down your thinking and learn to dispute the irrational beliefs before you react to them.By recognizing that negativity and catastrophic thinking is a bad habit and can be changed will take you a long way towards recovery. You may forever be a sensitive worrier but you can ramp down its overall reaction to your living a happy healthy life. what if he put the wrong corrections into the computer,

a normie may think this too but the difference is you believe it and even though you know that believing it is not objective you still believe it or at least think that by hedging and believing part of it you safeguard it from happening-sort of like believing in magic-if I worry enough it won’t happen. Your motives for the surgery were rational the procedure is relatively safe and has agood track record your doc wasn’t a foot doctor working on eyes and you survived it with comfort and are healing- when I wake up in the morning I can easily start catastrophizing and slip into the void of feeling anxious-but I actively and consciously don’t do it-I force myself to think differently and it becomes a habit-I will not be a mr.happy go lucky smiling bafoon but I will not be a chronic worrier either-this type of thinking is obsessive negativity try using it’s opposite for a week be obsessively positive even if you don’t believe it-when you believe it you will see it and you will slowly but surely.paste positive affirmations everywhere and read them write down every negative thought you have just the cumbersomeness will help abate some learn to recognize them and challenge them forcefully-klonopin will relax you but it will not change your negativity you can do that and will if you grow tired enough of the results of being negative-Remember that klonopin is used at doses of up to 4.5 mg a day so your dose is way lower then many who use it-the fear you have is just an attempt to negate a positive or proactive move-you are trying to keep yourself stuck and sabotoge growth-growth is scary-and its ok to be scared give yourself permission to be anxious it really is ok-no one likes to take meds no one wants to feel badly-the role of the meds are as a tool to help you not to harm you regardless of lots of misinformed nonsense you may read from time to time-one step forward at a time LM

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I said: Thankfully, my medical Dr told me that I just found a new focus for old fears and if it wasnt the lasik, I would still be dwelling on brain tumors,

LM came back with: he is correct–you have a persoanlity style that worries and this worry will attach itself onto any credible tangible thing it can- snip< a normie may think this too but the difference is you believe it and even though you know that believing it is not objective you still believe it or at least think that by hedging and believing part of it you safeguard it from happening-sort of like believing in magic-if I worry enough it won’t happen.

I can’t believe you hit the nail right on the head with your super insight. I was just telling someone last night that my fears (today the lasik) is kind of like a fearful flier that just knows the plane will crash if they relax. I also realized that I am afraid to let go of my fears….there is something almost comforting in the familiar anxiety I have. Thank you, I have saved this post and will go back and read it again. Lorri

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Steph Think about what you just said. It doesn’t make sense. If she ( I don’t think she said ) just started taking .2mgs of K and got a jittery feeling, how does that indicate that she is under medicated unless of course she was experiencing the same jitteriness all along. But if this is a reaction to the drug, then why would you say to go up on it  ?  Yes it isn’t a lot of K  but I would be curious to ask her if she felt the jitteriness came as a result of the meds.  If so then, what is the point of taking more ?  To try to cover up what the .2mgs are doing ?    Oh well, people on benzos can’t think too clearly anyway ( myself included .   I’m down to 3 mgs Valium a day and feeling OK but some transient bad muscle stiffness and some other things.  I thought I would have problems around here but so far so good.  BTW  FWIW  point2 mgs of K is equal to about  4 mgs valium. Let’s have a don’t trust your dang fool doctor day and see if anyone here starts to get better. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I took .2 mgs of Klonopin for the first time last night. I was fine until I tried to sleep. I felt very jittery. I was wondering if this is common with the drug. If this is how it’s going to effect me, I won’t take it…I do the jitters just fine on my own, thank you very much Lorri Hi Lorri! I’m surprised that you had the jitters. I myself have never experienced this. Please give it about a week or two to get into your system. I take 0.5 mgs 2-3 times daily and as I told you I had no problem. IMHO, 0.2 mg is undermedicated. Is that the dosage your Physician prescribed? How many times a day? Let me hear from you. Steph

Response:

Hi Lorrie, I agree with Philip on this one.  A drug is designed to do a certain job, and no matter what I "think" about it, it’s going to still do the job it was meant to do.  Once I accepted that concept, I relaxed and stopped worrying about it.  I also threw away all my med info books. I am the type that would compulsively read up on each and every med given to me and then would scare myself half to death. I found out the less I knew, the better off I was.  That’s just me.  Now if I want to know something, I call my psych doc and ask him. That’s the only way I knew how to "cure" my drug phobia.:-) ~Rita~ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Followup: I got brave and took another 2.5 mg of K right before I went to bed last night. I did some serious relaxation exercises before hand and had one of the best sleeps I’ve had in weeks. I was also able to fall back to sleep when I woke up at 6AM. No, I dont intend to use it every night but I need it for now. I have med paranioa that makes me think my meds are going to have an opposite effect on me. I have to get over this. Lorri Most PAD-sufferers are med phobic. I know I am. And up to a point this can initially work against us. For example: when I started Xanax three years ago I had all the listed side effects plus some unlisted ones <g five minutes after I took the first pill…. As a matter of fact Dr. Shipko goes so far as to state that people who are really phobic of a new med shouldn’t take it because they will produce a *self-fulfilling prophecy*. I strongly disagree with his reasoning though. From my own experience (and that of many others) I know that a med will do its work properly because it *does* work…. regardless of what we think of it. In his view, I feel, *placebo* (or, rather *deplacebo*) is rated much too high. Although I agree that placebo effects play a large role in the treatment of PAD (and are, in the positive sense, proper effects too which can be put to good use) the substances in our meds are real enough just like penicilline will work even if we don’t believe it will. Also research has shown time and again that placebo may often occur but that nevertheless meds *do* work a whole lot better. You have now proven to yourself that Klonopin works, your *med paranoia* notwithstanding. Yes, you have to get over this, but just taking the med will do that for you. Philip

Before you buy.

Response:

Hi Rita, It’s funny but taking the Zoloft doesnt scare me at all, it was the K that frightened me. I guess all the talk about dependence and addiction was part of the scare. I went up on a site last night to read about the K and I found myself getting scared…I dont think I read more than one line. I take the K at night and find myself being kind of anal about it..should I take it at 9, will I be better off taking it at 10…will I become dependent?? Sheesh, at that point I tell myself to shut up and I swallow the damned thing. I also popped a Tylenol with it because I had a headache…YEAAAAA! Lorri – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Hi Lorrie, I agree with Philip on this one.  A drug is designed to do a certain job, and no matter what I "think" about it, it’s going to still do the job it was meant to do.  Once I accepted that concept, I relaxed and stopped worrying about it.  I also threw away all my med info books. I am the type that would compulsively read up on each and every med given to me and then would scare myself half to death. I found out the less I knew, the better off I was.  That’s just me.  Now if I want to know something, I call my psych doc and ask him. That’s the only way I knew how to "cure" my drug phobia.:-) ~Rita~ Followup: I got brave and took another 2.5 mg of K right before I went to bed last night. I did some serious relaxation exercises before hand and had one of the best sleeps I’ve had in weeks. I was also able to fall back to sleep when I woke up at 6AM. No, I dont intend to use it every night but I need it for now. I have med paranioa that makes me think my meds are going to have an opposite effect on me. I have to get over this. Lorri Most PAD-sufferers are med phobic. I know I am. And up to a point this can initially work against us. For example: when I started Xanax three years ago I had all the listed side effects plus some unlisted ones <g five minutes after I took the first pill…. As a matter of fact Dr. Shipko goes so far as to state that people who are really phobic of a new med shouldn’t take it because they will produce a *self-fulfilling prophecy*. I strongly disagree with his reasoning though. From my own experience (and that of many others) I know that a med will do its work properly because it *does* work…. regardless of what we think of it. In his view, I feel, *placebo* (or, rather *deplacebo*) is rated much too high. Although I agree that placebo effects play a large role in the treatment of PAD (and are, in the positive sense, proper effects too which can be put to good use) the substances in our meds are real enough just like penicilline will work even if we don’t believe it will. Also research has shown time and again that placebo may often occur but that nevertheless meds *do* work a whole lot better. You have now proven to yourself that Klonopin works, your *med paranoia* notwithstanding. Yes, you have to get over this, but just taking the med will do that for you. Philip Before you buy.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Steph Think about what you just said. It doesn’t make sense. If she ( I don’t think she said ) just started taking .2mgs of K and got a jittery feeling, how does that indicate that she is under medicated unless of course she was experiencing the same jitteriness all along. But if this is a reaction to the drug, then why would you say to go up on it  ?  Yes it isn’t a lot of K  but I would be curious to ask her if she felt the jitteriness came as a result of the meds.  If so then, what is the point of taking more ?  To try to cover up what the .2mgs are doing ?    Oh well, people on benzos can’t think too clearly anyway ( myself included .   I’m down to 3 mgs Valium a day and feeling OK but some transient bad muscle stiffness and some other things.  I thought I would have problems around here but so far so good.  BTW  FWIW  point2 mgs of K is equal to about  4 mgs valium. Let’s have a don’t trust your dang fool doctor day and see if anyone here starts to get better.

Good Heavens! You are an idiot! I never told her to up her dosage. I clearly stated IMHO (which you NEVER do, BTW) I asked her if that was what her Physician prescribed and how many times per day.IMHO means just that. It does not mean I told her to up her dosage. It just means IMHO that *I* feel she may be undermedicated. Get your shit together. Don’t take me for a fool Rand. I’ll come back everytime and bust your balls. Stephanie

Response:

I took .2 mgs of Klonopin for the first time last night. I was fine until I tried to sleep. I felt very jittery. I was wondering if this is common with the drug. If this is how it’s going to effect me, I won’t take it…I do the jitters just fine on my own, thank you very much Lorri

Hi Lorri! I’m surprised that you had the jitters. I myself have never experienced this. Please give it about a week or two to get into your system. I take 0.5 mgs 2-3 times daily and as I told you I had no problem. IMHO, 0.2 mg is undermedicated. Is that the dosage your Physician prescribed? How many times a day? Let me hear from you. Steph

Response:

You are making the event of medicating yourself an anxiety trigger

You know, I think you’re right. I have always been afraid to medicate myself…even the thought of an aspirin makes me wonder what side effects I will have. Sigh, I took my first Zoloft this morning and waited for the worst to happen. I honestly think this is a deep seated control issue for me. Thank you for your response. Lorri

Response:

Lorri, I have found that many meds do make me jittery at night.  What I do is take my last daily med around 8:00 pm and go to bed a few hours later.  If I take it right before I go to bed I do end up jittery.  Try taking it earlier in the evening.  Hope it works! smiles, elise

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I took .2 mgs of Klonopin for the first time last night. I was fine until I tried to sleep. I felt very jittery. I was wondering if this is common with the drug. If this is how it’s going to effect me, I won’t take it…I do the jitters just fine on my own, thank you very much Lorri

Response:

I honestly think this is a deep seated control issue for me.

it isn’t deep seated or a control issue no one likes taking meds unless you really have a problem of abuse or severe hypochndriasis-meds can be scary justifiably so-what you can do is weigh the benefit vrs risk issue and truly examine he significant side effects of the med you want to use. Klonopin zoloft asprin aren’t LSD or cyanide-the dramatic fear response one has is similar to the fear response they have when thinking of how they will react when having a panic attack-bottom line if you examine how many people in a given day take zoloft or asprin and how many of them benefit without significant risk you put this in somewhat of a more realistic perspective. The combination of zoloft and klonopin is a good one so stick with it -start your zoloft low and give it a full 6 weeks to work after you reach the full dose-do use the klonopin at your docs rec. dosing -this may be in your best interests not your worse-be patient LM

Response:

it isn’t deep seated or a control issue no one likes taking meds unless you really have a problem of abuse or severe hypochndriasis-

When I said I have a control issue, I meant losing control of myself. I’m afraid of nt being able to handle what I feel….sigh…it goes on and on. Anyway, I’m going to stick with the Zoloft and give it a chance to work. Lorri

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I took .2 mgs of Klonopin for the first time last night. I was fine until I tried to sleep. I felt very jittery. I was wondering if this is common with the drug. If this is how it’s going to effect me, I won’t take it…I do the jitters just fine on my own, thank you very much Lorri

no actually the opposite many nuerologists use it to stop tremors and jitters this is an example of creating more anxiety then the drug can reduce-which at this dose is easy. You are making the event of medicating yourself an anxiety trigger-unless you are indeed having a paradoxical reaction- a larger dose would be te telling sign if you are willing to experince or try it again following your docs prescribing dose LM

Response:

I took .2 mgs of Klonopin for the first time last night. I was fine until I tried to sleep. I felt very jittery. I was wondering if this is common with the drug. If this is how it’s going to effect me, I won’t take it…I do the jitters just fine on my own, thank you very much Lorri

Response:

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ugh I had a rotten night yesterday. It started out alright – I decided to drop my Serzone and see if maybe that was making me feel so icky lately.  So I never took my morning dose.  Things went fine for most of the day. I had some things to get ready – it was our 3rd year anniversary today and I was waiting for my partner to get home from work. After supper things really went downhill – I started to feel really nauseated and bloated (it wasn’t my less than wonderful cooking either – Mel my partner was fine).  And from there is just lead to just horrible anxiety – by late in the evening I was just pacing back and forth – wondering if I should head to the emergency or not.  I decided to start the Serzone again and took my evening dose and it seemed to settle things down after about an hour or so.  Serzone does help some of the way for me – but I still don’t feel 100% or even 75% well on it – but it does take me to at least a somewhat toerable level of anxiety. I am making an appointment with the pdoc and see what can be done.  I had horrible luck on  a few of the SSRI’s but I have some good things about Celexa (yes I know it is an SSRI too) so maybe I will suggest that and see what the pdoc thinks.  Oh yes I do have Xanax around but for some reason I never take it – I don’t know why – I just cannot seem to make the decision to take it when I really need it.  If under docs orders of course, I started to take Xanax regularly – would it clear up these anxiety symptoms fast – would I notice a marked improvement almost right away ? – or would it take several weeks of usage to make me feel good again ?

Hi, Patrick….. I have been taking the same dose of Xanax for about 15 years now…… 0.5mg three times a day.  If I have a really bad pa, or if I’m facing something very challenging for me, I have my pdoc’s permission to take an extra tablet or two…… What it seems to do *for me* is to keep the panic and anxiety more *at bay*…… I rarely have a full-blown pa anymore…… maybe once a year.  As I remember, the Xanax was rather quick…….I didn’t have to wait weeks for it to help…. While you may likely become *dependent* on it after a long time (meaning you would have to wean off of it very slowly), it is not addictive…… I have never had the urge to take more and more….. as I said, I’m still at the same dosage I began with 15 years ago. I hope this helps a bit…… and I hope you get to feeling better soon, guy! I know it must suck to be feeling puny all the time….. Take care….. MikeH

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ugh I had a rotten night yesterday. It started out alright – I decided to drop my Serzone and see if maybe that was making me feel so icky lately.  So I never took my morning dose.  Things went fine for most of the day. I had some things to get ready – it was our 3rd year anniversary today and I was waiting for my partner to get home from work. After supper things really went downhill – I started to feel really nauseated and bloated (it wasn’t my less than wonderful cooking either – Mel my partner was fine).  And from there is just lead to just horrible anxiety – by late in the evening I was just pacing back and forth – wondering if I should head to the emergency or not.  I decided to start the Serzone again and took my evening dose and it seemed to settle things down after about an hour or so.  Serzone does help some of the way for me – but I still don’t feel 100% or even 75% well on it – but it does take me to at least a somewhat toerable level of anxiety.

Serzone is not a first choice med for PAD although it works for some people. But stopping it suddenly will cause a reaction like yours. All AD’s should be weaned off. I am making an appointment with the pdoc and see what can be done.  I had horrible luck on  a few of the SSRI’s but I have some good things about Celexa (yes I know it is an SSRI too) so maybe I will suggest that and see what the pdoc thinks.  Oh yes I do have Xanax around but for some reason I never take it – I don’t know why – I just cannot seem to make the decision to take it when I really need it.  If under docs orders of course, I started to take Xanax regularly – would it clear up these anxiety symptoms fast – would I notice a marked improvement almost right away ? – or would it take several weeks of usage to make me feel good again ?

Xanax works *immediately*, after 10-40 minutes, that is. It is IMO the best anti-anxiety med around (as a rule). You will get dependent on it which means you will have to stop it by way of a slow taper (like the AD’s) which is easy for some and very difficult for others. Some doctors don’t prescribe benzodiazepines (*benzos*) like Xanax because they confuse *dependence* with *addiction*. This means they haven’t done their homework. Hopefully your doc is not a so-called *benzophobe*. Of the SSRI’s Celexa seems to be the one with the lowest side effect profile. Still, if you had bad experiences with two or three other SSRI’s (after having given them enough time for a fair trial – 6-8 weeks) you might want to ask your doc about a TCA. Don’t mix Serzone and Xanax. It’s a bad combo as Serzone more than doubles the effect of Xanax and generally the two don’t interact well. I am feeling really achy today – and my stomach is still bothering me. Could be a stomach flu I suppose – but I tend to feel achy a lot these days so who can say for sure (I had all the tests done for achy muscles – there is no physical problem there).  I feel like my body was just beaten up.  I am so tired of feeling sick all the time.

Yeah…tell me about it…. this may well be Serzone withdrawal. Philip

Response:

I am feeling really achy today – and my stomach is still bothering me. Could be a stomach flu I suppose – but I tend to feel achy a lot these days so who can say for sure (I had all the tests done for achy muscles – there is no physical problem there).  I feel like my body was just beaten up.  I am so tired of feeling sick all the time. Yeah…tell me about it…. this may well be Serzone withdrawal. Philip

I found Serzone to be the most potent meds I was ever on. I just found that I was taking 300mgs a day and after a couple of months stopped it cold turkey. Bad mistake…don’t stop it without your Drs help. I became very sick and depressed for a couple of weeks. Lorri http://hometown.aol.com/lorr1/myhomepage5indexhtlm.html http://hometown.aol.com/lorr1/myhomepage4index.html

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ugh I had a rotten night yesterday. It started out alright – I decided to drop my Serzone and see if maybe that was making me feel so icky lately.  So I never took my morning dose.  Things went fine for most of the day. I had some things to get ready – it was our 3rd year anniversary today and I was waiting for my partner to get home from work.   After supper things really went downhill – I started to feel really nauseated and bloated (it wasn’t my less than wonderful cooking either – Mel my partner was fine).  And from there is just lead to just horrible anxiety – by late in the evening I was just pacing back and forth – wondering if I should head to the emergency or not.  I decided to start the Serzone again and took my evening dose and it seemed to settle things down after about an hour or so.  Serzone does help some of the way for me – but I still don’t feel 100% or even 75% well on it – but it does take me to at least a somewhat toerable level of anxiety. I am making an appointment with the pdoc and see what can be done.  I had horrible luck on  a few of the SSRI’s but I have some good things about Celexa (yes I know it is an SSRI too) so maybe I will suggest that and see what the pdoc thinks.  Oh yes I do have Xanax around but for some reason I never take it – I don’t know why – I just cannot seem to make the decision to take it when I really need it.  If under docs orders of course, I started to take Xanax regularly – would it clear up these anxiety symptoms fast – would I notice a marked improvement almost right away ? – or would it take several weeks of usage to make me feel good again ? I am feeling really achy today – and my stomach is still bothering me. Could be a stomach flu I suppose – but I tend to feel achy a lot these days so who can say for sure (I had all the tests done for achy muscles – there is no physical problem there).  I feel like my body was just beaten up.  I am so tired of feeling sick all the time.

Hi Patrick! I’m hoping you feel better today! Hugs, Di

Response:

Ugh I had a rotten night yesterday. It started out alright – I decided to drop my Serzone and see if maybe that was making me feel so icky lately.  So I never took my morning dose.  Things went fine for most of the day. I had some things to get ready – it was our 3rd year anniversary today and I was waiting for my partner to get home from work.   After supper things really went downhill – I started to feel really nauseated and bloated (it wasn’t my less than wonderful cooking either – Mel my partner was fine).  And from there is just lead to just horrible anxiety – by late in the evening I was just pacing back and forth – wondering if I should head to the emergency or not.  I decided to start the Serzone again and took my evening dose and it seemed to settle things down after about an hour or so.  Serzone does help some of the way for me – but I still don’t feel 100% or even 75% well on it – but it does take me to at least a somewhat toerable level of anxiety. I am making an appointment with the pdoc and see what can be done.  I had horrible luck on  a few of the SSRI’s but I have some good things about Celexa (yes I know it is an SSRI too) so maybe I will suggest that and see what the pdoc thinks.  Oh yes I do have Xanax around but for some reason I never take it – I don’t know why – I just cannot seem to make the decision to take it when I really need it.  If under docs orders of course, I started to take Xanax regularly – would it clear up these anxiety symptoms fast – would I notice a marked improvement almost right away ? – or would it take several weeks of usage to make me feel good again ? I am feeling really achy today – and my stomach is still bothering me. Could be a stomach flu I suppose – but I tend to feel achy a lot these days so who can say for sure (I had all the tests done for achy muscles – there is no physical problem there).  I feel like my body was just beaten up.  I am so tired of feeling sick all the time.

Response:

I know it is hard to up the xanax, but .25 is an extremly low dose. A few years ago , I  started getting panic attacks, and the doc prescibed .25/3X per day. It did abosolutely nothing, but I was too scared to take more. So after 2 weeks of constant attacks and horrible anxiety, I finally told myself "if I take 2 of these, what do I have to lose, I am going to die anyway and I took a .5 dose and another .5 dose 4 hrs later and boom..it was gone..I felt normal again. The point is  a .25 dose is not a dose for us panic sufferers. Dr’s give a dose like that to a patient who does not have PA or GAD , but just "going thru a roughtime". Talk to your Doc and bump the dose up to .5 3x a day. Believe me , it will help. Then when the zoloft kicks in (and it will) start lowering the xanax and soon you will be xanax free. When I was on zoloft, it hit me hard as well for the 1st 2 months, I was up to 4-5 mgs of xanax a day. But by the 5th month, the zoloft was working great and I was completely off the xanax. Hope this helps – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I had a pretty rotten night these last two.  The night before last I hardly slept at all but I managed to get to work and get through the day – barely.  Then last night after work I was doing some work on the computer and I felt strange – I started to perspire profusely, got all shaky, hot flushes up and down my body and felt short of breath  - basically it started to get out of hand – I paced the hallway in our apt here for a bit tried to calm myself but I just felt like I was gonna die.  I took a .25 mg Xanax – still phobic about taking anymore for some reason and it help a small bit but not enough.  I couldn’t do it this morning – I took the day off sick and made an appt to see the pdoc again (see him this Tuesday). I am on Zoloft – first 10 days at 25 mg and today would be my fifth day at 50 mg.  I don’t understand why the drug is hitting me so hard this time since when I was on it before for anxiety problems I seemed to handle it better.  Zoloft worked so well for me the last time I took it – I hope it starts to work soon for me here – it seems that it started to work faster for me the first time I took it – the thing that does concern me is that I am not seeing any positive effects after 15 days – I know 4-6 weeks for effect but shouldn’t I be seeing some improvement by now?

Response:

If you had a positive response to Zoloft before, you will most likely have a positive response again. The first few days of any increase in Zoloft dose often results in increased anxiety as a side effect. Xanax 0.25 mg is a very small dose (at least for me). I used to take 10.0 mg/day. I would suggest you increase your dose of Xanax (i.e. take 0.50 or 0.75 mg as needed) until you stop having PAs and this side effect of the Zoloft dissipates. Good luck, Chip last night   I had a pretty rotten night these last two. The night before last I hardly slept at all but I managed to get to work and get through the day – barely. Then last night after work I was doing some work on the computer and I felt strange – I started to perspire profusely, got all shaky, hot flushes up and down my body and felt short of breath – basically it started to get out of hand – I paced the hallway in our apt here for a bit tried to calm myself but I just felt like I was gonna die. I took a .25 mg Xanax – still phobic about taking anymore for some reason and it help a small bit but not enough. I couldn’t do it this morning – I took the day off sick and made an appt to see the pdoc again (see him this Tuesday). I am on Zoloft – first 10 days at 25 mg and today would be my fifth day at 50 mg. I don’t understand why the drug is hitting me so hard this time since when I was on it before for anxiety problems I seemed to handle it better. Zoloft worked so well for me the last time I took it – I hope it starts to work soon for me here – it seems that it started to work faster for me the first time I took it – the thing that does concern me is that I am not seeing any positive effects after 15 days – I know 4-6 weeks for effect but shouldn’t I be seeing some improvement by now?

Response:

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My name is Caz and I have been on antidepressants for five years for panic disorder, agoraphobia and generalised anxiety disorder.  I was extremely afraid of antidepressants as most anxiety sufferers are.  I was on Aropax for five years after being convinced by my doctor that I have a chemical imbalance and I managed quite well for two of those years, although I still had panic attacks but I learnt to put up with them. However the past year I have had a relapse with my anxiety and the Aropax was no longer working for me. My anxiety was getting so bad that I was thinking of suicide just to relieve the anxiety.  I am agoraphobic at the moment, so a psychiatrist has changed my medication to effexor.  I have read on the internet about Effexor and it seems to be the best medication for anxiety and depression.  I have only started the medication three days ago so I can’t tell you what kind of effect it has had on me yet, but if you would like to keep in touch, I can let you know of my progress.  I am also taking a low dose of Xanax to counteract the side effects of Effexor but my doctor insists that Xanax is easy to come off when done gradually.  I have been so bad lately that I will do anything to relieve the anxiety, since I would rather be alive and overcome it than dead and never know the outcome of my life. If I had it my way, I wouldn’t be on any medication at all but my brain does not function normally enough without the damn tablets. I am going to have ongoing psychological therapy as this is the second most important step in recovery. It will be a very slow process which I have been through before but it is easy to forget that people like us need ongoing help especially when we are beginning to feel better. Effexor is the only antidepressant that affects the serotonin and Norepinephrine chemicals in our brain, which means we have a better chance of recovery.  Have you looked up Effexor on the net?  It may help you to make a clearer decision. Please reply as I am interested in your response. Regards, Caz

In case you are curious, I have pulled some stuff from Doc’s bulliten boards and Medline on even further possibilities of combining a smaller dose of Effexor with an SSRI. It has been done very safely with good results. To me, it acts like a strong shield against depression and anxiety. As far as what you where saying about the dual action of Effexor…it’s really hard to tell. Only tou will know. I have to say this though..from the info I have read, and did myself, is VERY VERY slowly come onto it, as it can also mess up any anciety problems. Best wishes.. James

Response:

My name is Caz and I have been on antidepressants for five years for panic disorder, agoraphobia and generalised anxiety disorder.  I was extremely afraid of antidepressants as most anxiety sufferers are.  I was on Aropax for five years after being convinced by my doctor that I have a chemical imbalance and I managed quite well for two of those years, although I still had panic attacks but I learnt to put up with them.

Hi Caz and welcome to ASAP! You have come to the right place, we *all* suffer from anxiety disorders here. However the past year I have had a relapse with my anxiety and the Aropax was no longer working for me.

That’s the problem with SSRI-type antidepressants, they tend to poop out on you after an indefinite period of time. My anxiety was getting so bad that I was thinking of suicide just to relieve the anxiety.

BTDT… I am agoraphobic at the moment, so a psychiatrist has changed my medication to effexor.  I have read on the internet about Effexor and it seems to be the best medication for anxiety and depression.

Effexor is one of the newer antidepressants. Unfortunately there is *no* cure-all pill on the market (yet?) but Effexor is one of many good possibilities.  I have only started the medication three days ago so I can’t tell you what kind of effect it has had on me yet, but if you would like to keep in touch, I can let you know of my progress.

What dose are you on, Caz? It is advisable to *start low – go slow* in order to avoid or at least minimize initial side effects.  I am also taking a low dose of Xanax to counteract the side effects of Effexor but my doctor insists that Xanax is easy to come off when done gradually.

Xanax certainly is a first choice anxiolytic. When stopped it should be tapered off slowly as your doctor says. For some this is relatviely easy to do, for others it will be much more difficult. Most of our reactions to meds are very personal, there is no telling how you will do. But it is a good thing to have Xanax alongside Effexor. I have been so bad lately that I will do anything to relieve the anxiety, since I would rather be alive and overcome it than dead and never know the outcome of my life.

That’s the spirit! If I had it my way, I wouldn’t be on any medication at all but my brain does not function normally enough without the damn tablets.

Yeah….tell me about it… I am going to have ongoing psychological therapy as this is the second most important step in recovery. It will be a very slow process which I have been through before but it is easy to forget that people like us need ongoing help especially when we are beginning to feel better.

What kind of therapy are you doing? Experience has proven that most *talk therapy*, however helpful in other areas, as a rule doesn’t have much effect on panic symptoms. *Cognitive Behavioural Therapy* (CBT) on the other hand has a good track record with PAD and can relieve you of your worst agoraphobia rather quickly – how agoraphobic are you. are you actually housebound? Effexor is the only antidepressant that affects the serotonin and Norepinephrine chemicals in our brain, which means we have a better chance of recovery.  Have you looked up Effexor on the net?  It may help you to make a clearer decision.

There are several antidepressants (including old TCA’s) which work in different ways on both sertonin and norepinephrine receptors and there is no noted difference as regards success, partly because the etiology of PD isn’t quite understood as yet and neither are the workings of meds. It’s by and large a matter of trial and error. I hope Effexor will work for you. Please reply as I am interested in your response. Regards, Caz

Philip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

  Hi everyone .  I have been posting here quite a bit lately.  I saw the Psych Dr.  today.  I explained to him that I am terrified of meds but know theres no way around it at this point.  Ive had GAD/Depression for the past 3 years. Ive been getting weekly counseling.  I have a horrible fear of something going wrong wth my heart, health,etc… Very irrational.  So this med decision is really scaty for me .  I hear effexor can effect BLood Pressure.  I also dont want to get on something thats going to make me gain weight.  I know they all have there sides . My Dr wants me to take effexor .  He says its more apt to help me.  I was just getting use to the idea of celexa,luvox or even zoloft.  I obsess over ever symptom any way so I know This is going to be tough . I will start  one of these tomorrow.  Please let me know anything good or bad bout these meds.  Thank you so mu ch.!!!     Lissa

Response:

My name is Caz and I have been on antidepressants for five years for panic disorder, agoraphobia and generalised anxiety disorder.  I was extremely afraid of antidepressants as most anxiety sufferers are.  I was on Aropax for five years after being convinced by my doctor that I have a chemical imbalance and I managed quite well for two of those years, although I still had panic attacks but I learnt to put up with them. However the past year I have had a relapse with my anxiety and the Aropax was no longer working for me. My anxiety was getting so bad that I was thinking of suicide just to relieve the anxiety.  I am agoraphobic at the moment, so a psychiatrist has changed my medication to effexor.  I have read on the internet about Effexor and it seems to be the best medication for anxiety and depression.  I have only started the medication three days ago so I can’t tell you what kind of effect it has had on me yet, but if you would like to keep in touch, I can let you know of my progress.  I am also taking a low dose of Xanax to counteract the side effects of Effexor but my doctor insists that Xanax is easy to come off when done gradually.  I have been so bad lately that I will do anything to relieve the anxiety, since I would rather be alive and overcome it than dead and never know the outcome of my life. If I had it my way, I wouldn’t be on any medication at all but my brain does not function normally enough without the damn tablets. I am going to have ongoing psychological therapy as this is the second most important step in recovery. It will be a very slow process which I have been through before but it is easy to forget that people like us need ongoing help especially when we are beginning to feel better. Effexor is the only antidepressant that affects the serotonin and Norepinephrine chemicals in our brain, which means we have a better chance of recovery.  Have you looked up Effexor on the net?  It may help you to make a clearer decision. Please reply as I am interested in your response. Regards, Caz * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

Question:

   I seriously think my pd doc. is nuts.I just came from seeing him and he told me starting today to up my zoloft from 50mgs to 100mgs.He said I was going too slow thats why I don’t feel better yet You can’t go too slow. Why do these docs act like they have a plane to catch? snipped Philip

A lot of them do have a plane to catch, Philip. To Zurich to visit their money!!!!      <no joke  :-( Ian

Response:

  I seriously think my pd doc. is nuts.

You are probably right, Randee. A lot of shrinks have their own shrinks!!  And you probably know that they have the highest suicide rate of any of the medical specialities (the stats for docs generally are also higher than the general population). I just came from seeing him and he told me starting today to up my zoloft from 50mgs to 100mgs.He said I was going too slow thats why I don’t feel better yet.I think i’m doing just fine and i’m going to stay at 50mgs for now and find a new doc.

generally, an increase from 50 to 100mg is easier than 0 to 50, but the real determining factor should be how you feel about increasing, not how your doc feels. I tried to tell him why I was weening slow and he told me there is no risk or side-effects by upping it so high.

Did you start rolling on the floor laughing?  I would have. So I asked him if he ever took an SSRI. He didn’t like that one bit..lol

ADs when taken by those without a problem seem to have very few effects beyond S.Es, so IMO all doctors should be required to take a short course of one. This would do wonders for their care of patients! At least they are calling my insurance company today and trying to get zoloft approved.That would be a huge help.I’m still in good spirits though.Not many side-effects on 50mgs. I’m hoping to be breathing better soon.                                        Randee

take care ian

Response:

   I seriously think my pd doc. is nuts.I just came from seeing him and he told me starting today to up my zoloft from 50mgs to 100mgs.He said I was going too slow thats why I don’t feel better yet

You can’t go too slow. Why do these docs act like they have a plane to catch? If you’re feeling ready to raise the Zoloft dose, raise it to 75 mgs first, there is no hurry and your own pace is the best pace. For most people 50 mgs won’t do the trick but if you feel OK there is no reason to do anything about it….. .I think i’m doing just fine and i’m going to stay at 50mgs for now and find a new doc. I tried to tell him why I was weening slow and he told me there is no risk or side-effects by upping it so high

Oh yeah…… .So I asked him if he ever took an SSRI. He didn’t like that one bit..lol At least they are calling my insurance company today and trying to get zoloft approved.That would be a huge help.I’m still in good spirits though.Not many side-effects on 50mgs. I’m hoping to be breathing better soon.

Well, so far so good. I admire you for standing up for yourself, it isn’t all that easy…                                         Randee

Philip

Response:

   I seriously think my pd doc. is nuts.I just came from seeing him and he told me starting today to up my zoloft from 50mgs to 100mgs.He said I was going too slow thats why I don’t feel better yet.I think i’m doing just fine and i’m going to stay at 50mgs for now and find a new doc. I tried to tell him why I was weening slow and he told me there is no risk or side-effects by upping it so high.So I asked him if he ever took an SSRI. He didn’t like that one bit..lol At least they are calling my insurance company today and trying to get zoloft approved.That would be a huge help.I’m still in good spirits though.Not many side-effects on 50mgs. I’m hoping to be breathing better soon.                                         Randee

Randee –   In no way am I questioning your personal descision on Zoloft…However, I thought I would share my experience with you…I was at 50 mg for 2 weeks…By then I had few side effects (like you)…However, only my depression seemed better…No effect on anxiety…My doc suggested upping to 100 mg…I said fine since I was having few side effects…Within 5 days my anxiety was markedly improved…I was very glad to have upped my dose…I did have renewed side effects, but these lasted only 2 days (really)…It seemed like going from 50-100 was much easier than 0-50…Anyway, like I said, it is your decision, I just wanted you to know about my experience as it might aid your decision one way or the other… Later and good luck, — Charles Phipps

Response:

   I seriously think my pd doc. is nuts.I just came from seeing him and he told me starting today to up my zoloft from 50mgs to 100mgs.He said I was going too slow thats why I don’t feel better yet.I think i’m doing just fine and i’m going to stay at 50mgs for now and find a new doc. I tried to tell him why I was weening slow and he told me there is no risk or side-effects by upping it so high.So I asked him if he ever took an SSRI. He didn’t like that one bit..lol At least they are calling my insurance company today and trying to get zoloft approved.That would be a huge help.I’m still in good spirits though.Not many side-effects on 50mgs. I’m hoping to be breathing better soon.                                         Randee

Response:

  I seriously think my pd doc. is nuts.I just came from seeing him and he told me starting today to up my zoloft from 50mgs to 100mgs.He said I was going too slow thats why I don’t feel better yet.I think i’m doing just fine and i’m going to stay at 50mgs for now and find a new doc. I tried to tell him why I was weening slow and he told me there is no risk or side-effects by upping it so high.So I asked him if he ever took an SSRI. He didn’t like that one bit..lol At least they are calling my insurance company today and trying to get zoloft approved.That would be a huge help.I’m still in good spirits though.Not many side-effects on 50mgs. I’m hoping to be breathing better soon.

Hi Randee, Your Pdoc is more than nuts, and I agree, time  for a new one. I am so glad that you stood up for yourself and defended your right to wean on Zoloft  your way, which is the right way. It makes me so angry when I hear doctors with attitudes like yours. I can only imagine how many people have been turned off to anti-depressants because they started at too high a dose, and couldn`t handle it and got off the med. Hang in there,  you will be feeling better soon. Take care!! Jackie

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Question:

if you are taking effexor and are thinkin of going off for whatever reason, or have thought of trying it out, please be advised that the side effects of going off can be horrendous. have watched friends go off other anti-depress. meds to try newer meds and tho they have reactions (either depression before new med kicks in, or side effects of new drug) they have not had the physical reactions we are having. spoilered for talk of physical reactions, just in case it’s too graphic…no splatteroos 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 been positive we had bone cancer, or lupus, or mono, or hepatitis and trying to move home at same time has been nearly impossible. didn’t know what was wrong. sleep all the time but not the kind that comes with depression, just horrible bone tired exhaustion. joints aching so much it is hard to move body. at all. stomach all messed up, bloated, shooting pains, no appetite. lots of mental confusion (you can snicker, is ok) but not just normal diss kind. hard to put thoughts together and if we can, can’t retain for more than 2 seconds. zip…gone into the murk. sleep is passing out and then jerking awake from aching body. head aches 24/7. thought we had tumor or stroke coming. seriously. started thinking about wanting to die just to make constant physical hurting go away. this is not us. have always been able to diss. away physical discomfort. no painkiller at dentist (don’t need it), had viral menigitis once and didn’t pay attention to hurting till it was real bad. doc freaked and put on lots of meds and sent to bed (no getting up, no moving fast or lifting, be a loaf of bread he said). this is just to say, physical is never big problem. till this effexor. literature says should go off over period of at least 2 weeks. we have been tapering for 6 weeks and effects are getting worse and worse. wasn’t until last night went to pharminfonet and read threads from ppl who went off, are going off…and found every damn symptom (except sore throat that plagues us still) mentioned by ppl. and they all are saying takes way more than 2 weeks to get off. so angry could absolutely…can’t say what we want to do cause it makes us ashamed but still want to do it. hate this drug and company that lies about horrible effects of quitting. docs are not aware of this and so don’t take it into account when prescribing. also, didn’t want to go to doctor because we knew that we would be ignored as crazy person with psychosomatic symptoms. really, honestly thought we were dying. hatehatehate. don’t need more problems. need less. has been good drug as anti-depress. but couldn’t afford it anymore and wanted to try st.johns wort (hypericum). been in the literature for 2400 years. think that is much better track record for us. hypericum has web page for anyone who is curious. anyway. rant rant. hate wyeth drug co. will avoid buying anything they produce. will prolly write a letter when brain clears. not that they give a shit. but will make us feel little better to scream at them. maybe also copy to fda, just for the heck of it. expect no response but maybe someone will notice… so, don’t know what to say. not telling anyone not to take drug. like we say, been good at what it does. but never want to feel this much physical pain again. badhorriblestupid. cause even if didn’t have to go off drug now, someday hope to not have to take meds and so it would happen sooner or later. and no one says how horrible it can be. just vague corporate lies…scum. all done. sorry about anger. is much huger than what is showing. b., geep, KAT, Susie, Rachel — For more information about this service, send e-mail to:

Response:

Thanks for posting about this!  I’ve been taking Effexor for about a year now, and always want to hear what other people’s experiences with it are.  I’ve not been in the position yet to try withdrawal, as so far it’s worked well for me as an anti-d. I hope the nasty withdrawal stuff goes away soon for you… Take good care, Kanga – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – if you are taking effexor and are thinkin of going off for whatever reason, or have thought of trying it out, please be advised that the side effects of going off can be horrendous. have watched friends go off other anti-depress. meds to try newer meds and tho they have reactions (either depression before new med kicks in, or side effects of new drug) they have not had the physical reactions we are having. spoilered for talk of physical reactions, just in case it’s too graphic…no splatteroos 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 been positive we had bone cancer, or lupus, or mono, or hepatitis and trying to move home at same time has been nearly impossible. didn’t know what was wrong. sleep all the time but not the kind that comes with depression, just horrible bone tired exhaustion. joints aching so much it is hard to move body. at all. stomach all messed up, bloated, shooting pains, no appetite. lots of mental confusion (you can snicker, is ok) but not just normal diss kind. hard to put thoughts together and if we can, can’t retain for more than 2 seconds. zip…gone into the murk. sleep is passing out and then jerking awake from aching body. head aches 24/7. thought we had tumor or stroke coming. seriously. started thinking about wanting to die just to make constant physical hurting go away. this is not us. have always been able to diss. away physical discomfort. no painkiller at dentist (don’t need it), had viral menigitis once and didn’t pay attention to hurting till it was real bad. doc freaked and put on lots of meds and sent to bed (no getting up, no moving fast or lifting, be a loaf of bread he said). this is just to say, physical is never big problem. till this effexor. literature says should go off over period of at least 2 weeks. we have been tapering for 6 weeks and effects are getting worse and worse. wasn’t until last night went to pharminfonet and read threads from ppl who went off, are going off…and found every damn symptom (except sore throat that plagues us still) mentioned by ppl. and they all are saying takes way more than 2 weeks to get off. so angry could absolutely…can’t say what we want to do cause it makes us ashamed but still want to do it. hate this drug and company that lies about horrible effects of quitting. docs are not aware of this and so don’t take it into account when prescribing. also, didn’t want to go to doctor because we knew that we would be ignored as crazy person with psychosomatic symptoms. really, honestly thought we were dying. hatehatehate. don’t need more problems. need less. has been good drug as anti-depress. but couldn’t afford it anymore and wanted to try st.johns wort (hypericum). been in the literature for 2400 years. think that is much better track record for us. hypericum has web page for anyone who is curious. anyway. rant rant. hate wyeth drug co. will avoid buying anything they produce. will prolly write a letter when brain clears. not that they give a shit. but will make us feel little better to scream at them. maybe also copy to fda, just for the heck of it. expect no response but maybe someone will notice… so, don’t know what to say. not telling anyone not to take drug. like we say, been good at what it does. but never want to feel this much physical pain again. badhorriblestupid. cause even if didn’t have to go off drug now, someday hope to not have to take meds and so it would happen sooner or later. and no one says how horrible it can be. just vague corporate lies…scum. all done. sorry about anger. is much huger than what is showing. b., geep, KAT, Susie, Rachel — For more information about this service, send e-mail to:

Response:

thank you veryvery much Pope C. just like figuring out the effexor was causing all this horriblehorrible was huge relief, having the symptoms verified and explained is most empowering. not jus using that word accidentally. it gives me power in the head to know why this is happening and how to compare it with something. better to compare it to real brother, coke drug withdrawal, than to search for as yet unpublished effexor withdrawal symptoms or see it all as similar to dread diseases. we can work better with truth. funny how that works…. we were on drug for almost (i think) two years at 300mg a day which is up at top of dose level. this may be why the crash was so awful. also, 44 years old and ectomorph (is that the skinny body type? if so, thas us) tend to run at higher speeds and crash into feeling things without protection. oh fuzzy brain. does that last make sense. it has always felt like body was not protected by nice cushion and so all physical stuff was sort of heightened, accelerated…something…and then when we finally would notice physical discomfort it was huge and our body totally unprepared.  i think i am babbling. no, no doc to tell us how to go off. just followed what we know of drug withdrawal protocol. 300mg to250 for a week, to 200 for a week, to 150 for a week, and so on, down to taking only fraction (one third down to one quarter) of tablet 3x a day down to twice a day. tried to do it long and slow and careful. think this only prolonged the hurting. once we figured out was the effexor, we just quit. get it out of body now!!! one thing we discovered in last few days is that taking ambien sleeping pill (one at night) has helped make most excruciating symptoms abate for better part of the day. maybe just prolonging the withdrawal this way, but at least we can move around and get simple day to day tasks done without thinking we are dying. maybe this is like your suggestion about painkillers. as well as letters to fda and wyeth, i am going to send letter to dr.sid wolfe at nader founded group called health research group. used to work for organization that housed hrg and think sid will be interested. can i send him copy of your post (minus all identifiers) as it is good foil to my venting about symptoms. gives to hurting (amorphous) a basis in fact. docs like facts. will only do if you say is ok. thank you again for this information. you will never realize how validating and helpful it was. we still feel crappy but at least we know why and how. knowledge really is power. thank you all of Pope C. b. and all of coney s. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : if you are taking effexor and are thinkin of going off for whatever : reason, or have thought of trying it out, please be advised that the : side effects of going off can be horrendous. have watched friends go off : other anti-depress. meds to try newer meds and tho they have reactions : (either depression before new med kicks in, or side effects of new drug) : they have not had the physical reactions we are having. : spoilered for talk of physical reactions, just in case it’s too : graphic…no splatteroos : 1 : 2 : 3 : 4 : 5 : 6 : 7 : 8 : 9 : 0 : 1 : 2 : 3 : been positive we had bone cancer, or lupus, or mono, or hepatitis and : trying to move home at same time has been nearly impossible. didn’t know : what was wrong. sleep all the time but not the kind that comes with : depression, just horrible bone tired exhaustion. joints aching so much : it is hard to move body. at all. stomach all messed up, bloated, : shooting pains, no appetite. lots of mental confusion (you can snicker, : is ok) but not just normal diss kind. hard to put thoughts together and : if we can, can’t retain for more than 2 seconds. zip…gone into the : murk. sleep is passing out and then jerking awake from aching body. head : aches 24/7. thought we had tumor or stroke coming. seriously. started : thinking about wanting to die just to make constant physical hurting go : away. Woof.  That sounds much worse than the "average" withdrawal from effexor, but they’re usually pretty bad from what I hear.  Basically you are going through the equivalent of "speed" or cocaine withdrawal, cold-turkey.  I researched Effexor for a friend last year. Here’s what’s going on, if it would help to know (I wrote something similar for asar last year):    The SSRIs are called that because they are *Selective* serotonin    reuptake inhibitors.  They don’t affect too much else, at least on    purpose.    Effexor is *not* an SSRI; it’s an SRI, but it’s also a dopamine    reuptake inhibitor.  This means it increases the dopamine levels in    your system, which can boost your mood and is why it’s such an    effective anti-depressant, but it means it’s also capable of    becoming physically addictive in the same way that speed or cocaine    are.  (Those are both dopamine-mimics, in the sense that they    stimulate the dopamine receptors in the brain.) Effectively you’re going through the equivalent of a really bad and prolonged amphetamine or cocaine withdrawal.  Yours seems to be worse than usual.  Maybe it will help to know this, I don’t know. Oh yeah, the SSRIs and SRIs all raise the pain threshold – SSRIs are now being prescribed for cancer victims along with conventional painkillers – so going off the SRI component presumably lowers it. That’s probably making the physical pain worse too. [...] : literature says should go off over period of at least 2 weeks. we have : been tapering for 6 weeks and effects are getting worse and worse. Ugh.  They will wear off eventually but it’s awful that it’s going on so long. : wasn’t until last night went to pharminfonet and read threads from ppl : who went off, are going off…and found every damn symptom (except sore : throat that plagues us still) mentioned by ppl. and they all are saying : takes way more than 2 weeks to get off. Yeah, that’s what I warned my friend last year. : so angry could : absolutely…can’t say what we want to do cause it makes us ashamed but : still want to do it. hate this drug and company that lies about horrible : effects of quitting. docs are not aware of this and so don’t take it : into account when prescribing. The drug industry is all excited about Effexor, because it’s the first in potentially a whole new class of phenethylamine-based SRIs.  We can hope that all of them don’t have this kind of effect.  (Phenethylamines are one of the two major families of chemicals from which most psychedelic drugs are derived: mescaline, MDA, X or "Ecstasy", etc. Most SSRIs are distantly related to the other such family, tryptamines.) Unfortunately too many doctors don’t read anything but the PDR for drug info, even though it’s based entirely on info provided by the drug manufacturers.  (And it tends to be updated more slowly than other sources.) I still use it as a source, but I try to look at other sources if I can, and I always do my own research on any drug I’m taking. Did your doctor taper you down very gradually, like they’re supposed to (if they keep up on the literature) or did they cut down the dosage for you more rapidly from full dosage to almost nothing?  (Either because they didn’t know or because of side-effects that were too dangerous to taper down slowly.) Talk to doctor about withdrawal effects, but if they won’t take you seriously, you might try:   1) asking for conventional painkillers to help you get through it;   2) ask if you can start phasing in another SSRI during the      withdrawal (this might not be safe due to untested interactions);   3) drink lots of coffee during the withdrawal period (seriously –      coffee stimulates dopamine release and might somewhat reduce the      effects.) This is purely my own weird advice, not endorsed by any      doctror. : also, didn’t want to go to doctor because we knew that we would be : ignored as crazy person with psychosomatic symptoms. really, honestly : thought we were dying. hatehatehate. don’t need more problems. need : less. I know what you mean… : anyway. rant rant. hate wyeth drug co. will avoid buying anything they : produce. will prolly write a letter when brain clears. not that they : give a shit. but will make us feel little better to scream at them. : maybe also copy to fda, just for the heck of it. expect no response but : maybe someone will notice… It’s a good idea.  Eventually, with enough letters like that, the FDA may force them to at least add more warnings to the PDR and package inserts, which is pretty much all that a lot of doctors read. : so, don’t know what to say. not telling anyone not to take drug. like we : say, been good at what it does. but never want to feel this much : physical pain again. badhorriblestupid. cause even if didn’t have to go : off drug now, someday hope to not have to take meds and so it would : happen sooner or later. and no one says how horrible it can be. just : vague corporate lies…scum. Yep.  That’s corporate America – or at this point, the world.  Most corporations are severely dysfunctional and in denial. <1/2 g : all done. sorry about anger. is much huger than what is showing. Anger is a feeling.  It’s fine to be angry.  You did not use it as an excuse to behave badly towards anyone, at least that I can see, so there is no need to apologize.  Thank you for

… read more »

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Question:

Where do I find veterinarian supply companies?   Maybe I’m being lazy here, but if you know I’d appreciate it. I’ve been to farm supply companies but don’t remember seeing tryptophan.  But then I was there for antibiotics myself. (worked great too!!) Thanks, dn

snipped for brevity – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – LT is available in 100 g. or larger quantities from veterinary suppliers, at a cost substantially less than prescription LT, though still more than the OTC product once cost. Veterinary LT is molecularly identical to the tryptophan we are interested in here, and purity and quality control are probably higher than most old OTC products. One caveat: if you are taking a SSRI (Prozac, Paxil, Zoloft, Effexor) antidepressent, concurrent LT use is strongly contradicated, as taking both together can produce the potentially lethal ’serotonin syndrome,’ due to toxic levels of 5-HT in the body. –Will

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Where do I find veterinarian supply companies?   Maybe I’m being lazy here, but if you know I’d appreciate it. I’ve been to farm supply companies but don’t remember seeing tryptophan.  But then I was there for antibiotics myself. (worked great too!!) Thanks, dn snipped for brevity LT is available in 100 g. or larger quantities from veterinary suppliers, at a cost substantially less than prescription LT, though still more than the OTC product once cost. Veterinary LT is molecularly identical to the tryptophan we are interested in here, and purity

There is a mail-order souce in Tucson, I don’t know their name. Check in alt.support.depression, or sci.med.pharmacy. –Will

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snipped for brevity LT is available in 100 g. or larger quantities from veterinary suppliers, at a cost substantially less than prescription LT, though still more than the OTC product once cost. Veterinary LT is molecularly identical to the tryptophan we are interested in here, and purity There is a mail-order souce in Tucson, I don’t know their name. Check in alt.support.depression, or sci.med.pharmacy. –Will

Please also come have a look at our site for this product. Be Well. QHI — Medicines For The Modern Mainstream http://www.qhi.co.uk

Response:

                         The FDA Ban of                     L-Tryptophan:  Politics,                       Profits and Prozac1*                   By Dean Wolfe Manders, Ph.D.                  Copyright, All Rights Reserved      In the fall of 1989, the FDA recalled L-Tryptophan, an amino acid nutritional supplement, stating that it caused a rare and deadly flu-like condition (Eosinophilia-Myalgia Syndrome — EMS). On March 22, 1990, the FDA banned the public sale dietary of L- Tryptophan completely. This ban continues today.      On March 26, 1990, Newsweek featured a lead article praising the virtues of the anti-depressant drug Prozac. Its multi-color cover displayed a floating, gigantic green and white capsule of Prozac with the caption: "Prozac: A Breakthrough Drug for Depression."      The fact that the FDA ban of L-Tryptophan and the Newsweek Prozac cover story occurred within four days of each other went unnoticed by both the media and the public. Yet, to those who understand the effective properties of L-Tryptophan and Prozac, the concurrence seems "unbelievably coincidental." The link here is the brain neurotransmitter serotonin — a biochemical nerve signal conductor. The action of Prozac and L-Tryptophan are both involved with serotonin, but in totally different ways.      Elevated levels of serotonin in the body often result in the relief of depression, as well as substantial reduction in pain sensitivity, anxiety and stress. Prozac, as well as other new anti- depressant drugs such as Paxil and Zoloft, attempt to enhance levels of serotonin by working on whatever amounts of it already exist in the body (these drugs are known as selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors). None of these drugs, however, produce serotonin. In contrast, ingested L-Tryptophan acts to produce serotonin, even in individuals who generate little serotonin of their own. The most effective way to elevate levels of serotonin would be to use a serotonin producer rather than a serotonin enhancer.      The continuing FDA public ban of L-Tryptophan prevents popular access to this most effective serotonin producer. The millions of Americans who for decades safely had relied upon L-Tryptophan to relieve depression, anxiety and PMS, as well as to control pain and induce natural sleep, have been forced elsewhere for solutions. Routinely, such solutions are pharmaceutical in nature: people are forced to use either often highly addictive, expensive, and some- times dangerous drugs like Xanax, Valium, Halcion, Dalmane, Co- deine, Anafranil, Prozac, and others, or, simply suffer.      Present FDA public policy maintains that L-Tryptophan is an untested, unapproved and hazardous drug. The analytical work done a few years ago by the Centers for Disease Control and the Mayo Clinic, research which traced the fall 1989 outbreak of the serious flu-like condition to contaminants found in batches of L-Tryptophan made by the Japanese company Showa Denko, has not convinced the FDA to allow L-Tryptophan back on the market. This decision is based primarily on the research of FDA and NIMH scientists who state that L-Tryptophan itself, irrespective of contaminants, is a dangerous substance. Other university-based research scientists disagree with these findings.      The public availability of L-Tryptophan is too important an issue only to be argued and shrouded within a scientific debate that remains, ultimately, mystifying to the vast majority of Americans. There are many obvious facts worthy of public attention, and public concern. For example, consider the following:      ~ On February 9, 1993, a United States government patent (#5185157) was issued to use L-Tryptophan to treat, and cure EMS, the very same deadly flu-like condition which prompted the FDA to take L-Tryptophan off the market in 1989.      ~ Notwithstanding its public ban and import alert on L- Tryptophan, the FDA today allows Ajinomoto U.S.A. the right to import from Japan human-use L-Tryptophan.  Distributed from the Ajinomoto plant in Raleigh, North Carolina, the L-Tryptophan is then sold to, and through, a network of compounding pharmacies across the United States. Purchased by individuals only under a physician’s order, L-Tryptophan emerges here as a new prescription drug in the serotonin marketplace; one hundred 500 mg capsules cost about $75.00, approximately five times more than if they were sold as a dietary supplement.      Since the FDA holds the political mandate and power of a public regulatory agency established, ostensibly, to protect people from raw corporate interests in drug production and distribution, the actions of the FDA in concert with Ajinomoto U.S.A. are illumi- nating. By publicly banning L-Tryptophan from its dietary supple- ment status and price, while allowing L-Tryptophan to be sold as a high-priced prescription drug, the naked duplicity of FDA L- Tryptophan policy is revealed.      ~ During and after the 1989 EMS outbreak, the FDA did not totally ban the use of L-Tryptophan in humans — then, as today, the FDA has granted the pharmaceutical industry the protected right to use L-Tryptophan in hospital settings.  Manufactured by Abbott Laboratories, the amino acid injectable solutions Aminosyn and Aminosyn II contain as much as 200 mg of L-Tryptophan.  (Moreover, L-Tryptophan has never been removed from baby food produced and sold within the United States.)      ~ While the FDA has banned the public sale and use of safe, non-contaminated, dietary supplement L-Tryptophan for people, the United States Department of Agriculture still sanctions the legal sale and use of non-contaminated L-Tryptophan for animals.  Today, as in the past, feed grade L-Tryptophan continues to be used as a nutritional and bulk feed additive by the commercial hog and chicken farming industry.  Additionally, L-Tryptophan is now available for use by veterinarians in caring for horses and pets.   ~ Outside of the United States, in countries such as Canada, the Netherlands, Germany, England, and others, L-Tryptophan is widely used. Nowhere, have any serious or widespread health problems occurred.      At bottom, the FDA public ban of safe, non-contaminated L- Tryptophan is uneven, expensive, and biased in favor of the phar- maceutical industry. The FDA proscription effectively awards billions of dollars in profits to pharmaceutical companies and their suppliers in the same proportion as it adds billions of unnecessary dollars to the nation’s already bloated health care expenditures.      On June 15, 1993, the FDA Dietary Supplement Task Force published a report on the work it had been doing in the area of developing FDA policy around nutritional supplements. On page two, the report admits, "The Task Force considered various issues in its deliberations, including… what steps are necessary to ensure that the existence of dietary supplements on the market does not act as a disincentive for drug development."      In this case, the FDA has succeeded in carrying out its stated policy goal. With competition from publicly available L-Tryptophan removed, the rapidly expanding market in prescription serotonin drugs — now among them L-Tryptophan itself — contains no major "disincentives" for the massive accumulation of pharmaceutical industry profits.      It is now time for appropriate congressional committees to review openly and aggressively the entire matter of L-Tryptophan. This will provide a needed forum where political, corporate, and scientific issues of FDA L-Tryptophan regulatory policy may be addressed. There exists ample precedent for such hearings: in the 1980’s and early 1990’s, for example, such investigations uncovered FDA favoritism in the approval of generic drugs and the bribery of FDA officials.      The story of L-Tryptophan illustrates a sad and perverse picture of the politics and priorities of public health in America: A safe, dietary-supplement serotonin producer is publicly unavailable to people, while daily fed to animals by corporate agribusiness.  A drug patent is approved to use L-Tryptophan to cure the very condition the FDA claims it caused.  And, while publicly exclaiming that L-Tryptophan is a dangerous and untested drug, the FDA, more quietly, allows human-use L-Tryptophan to be imported, and then marketed and sold by the pharmaceutical industry.       To allow the FDA ban of L-Tryptophan to continue unreviewed and uninvestigated condemns millions of Americans to unnecessary financial expenditures and needless suffering.      1.  This article appeared in Social Policy, Vol. 26, No. 2, Winter 1995.  Dean Wolfe Manders is a senior lecturer in humanities and sciences at the California College of Arts and Crafts, Oakland/San Francisco.  He has lectured and done extensive research on the medical politics of L-Tryptophan.      *Blazing Tattles, June 96.  Responses to the above article may be quoted in future issues unless writer explicitly requests otherwise.  For information about Blazing Tattles send inquiry to: Tattles at P.O. Box 1073, Half Moon Bay, CA 94019.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yet, to those who understand the effective properties of L-Tryptophan and Prozac, the concurrence seems "unbelievably coincidental." The link here is the brain neurotransmitter serotonin — a biochemical nerve signal conductor. The action of Prozac and L-Tryptophan are both involved with serotonin, but in totally different ways.      Elevated levels of serotonin in the body often result in the relief of depression, as well as substantial reduction in pain sensitivity, anxiety and stress. Prozac, as well as other new anti- depressant drugs such as Paxil and Zoloft, attempt to enhance levels of serotonin by working on whatever amounts of it already exist in the body (these drugs are known as selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors). None of these drugs, however, produce serotonin. In contrast, ingested L-Tryptophan acts to produce serotonin, even in individuals who generate little serotonin of their own. The most effective way to elevate levels of serotonin would be to use a serotonin producer rather than a serotonin enhancer.

Agreed that SSRIs and LTryptophan both work on serotonin. I have used both with good results. The distinction needs to be made that some depressions are more neurologic, others more hormonal or enzymatic. In cases of the former, SSRIs generally work much better, and in the latter, LT works better. I also agree that the continuing FDA ban looks suspicious, and it ought to be lifted immediately. LT is available in 100 g. or larger quantities from veterinary suppliers, at a cost substantially less than prescription LT, though still more than the OTC product once cost. Veterinary LT is molecularly identical to the tryptophan we are interested in here, and purity and quality control are probably higher than most old OTC products. One caveat: if you are taking a SSRI (Prozac, Paxil, Zoloft, Effexor) antidepressent, concurrent LT use is strongly contradicated, as taking both together can produce the potentially lethal ’serotonin syndrome,’ due to toxic levels of 5-HT in the body. –Will

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Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -bm…@haven.ios.com wrote:

In <01bb6ec9.66374280$5de5d3c6@#glang, "Lori Lang" <70471.1…@compuserve.com writes: I need some help from anyone who can give it.  I’m 36 years old and I’ve been an insomniac my whole life.  I have trouble getting to sleep and if I get to sleep I can’t stay asleep.  I get 2-3 hours of sleep a night.  When I was young, I started taking antihistamines at night (I had allergies) and although I didn’t feel great the next day, I slept.  Any time I didn’t take them, no sleep.  I’ve gone more than a week with no sleep at different times in my life.  I could take antihistamines until last year, when they started irritating my stomach.  I had to get some help. I follow all of the rules:  no eating after dinner, turn down the lights at night, meditate, stress reduction, blah blah blah.  I’m convinced that whoever came up with the list has never had a sleepless night, because those things don’t seem to matter.  I’ve tried melatonin, homeopathic remedies, acupuncture, herbs.  I finally went to the doctor and had a sleep study done.  It came back that my sleep is severely abnormal, I’m not getting to stage 3 or 4, and that I should take antidepressants. I’ve tried 4 different antidepressants.  I had allergic reactions to 2 of them (Prozac, Effexor), and two made me sick (Pamelor, Serzone).  The only thing that has helped is Ambien, but that’s nothing that anyone will prescribe for me on an ongoing basis.  But it’s heaven.  It’s the only thing that works. Unfortunately, I’m not someone who feels okay without sleep.  I’ve been told by three doctors now just to live with it because that’s the way I am.  I’d almost rather be dead than live like this.  It’s a nightmare (so to speak). Nobody feels okay without sleep.  Almost everyone on this newsgroup knows how devistating sleep deprivation can be.  It’s a shame you found three separate doctors who merely told you to "live with it".  Are these general practitioners? Have you seen a sleep specialist?  It seems to me that you need the help of someone who specializes in sleep problems and can understand the severity of your problems when you don’t sleep.  I don’t know too much about Ambien but I have seen postings here from people who have taken it regularly – one person for a couple years, I believe. Please, see a doctor who is both willing and capable of understanding your sleep problems.  Too many doctors know very little about sleep disorders and don’t understand their seriousness. –BillM

http://www.micronet.fr/~mondor

Response:

"Lori Lang" <70471.1…@compuserve.com

wrote: I finally went to the doctor and had a sleep study done.  It came back that my sleep is severely abnormal, I’m not getting to stage 3 or 4, and that I should take antidepressants.   I’ve tried 4 different antidepressants.  I had allergic reactions to 2 of them (Prozac, Effexor), and two made me sick (Pamelor, Serzone).  The only thing that has helped is Ambien, but that’s nothing that anyone will prescribe for me on an ongoing basis.  But it’s heaven.  It’s the only thing that works.

First, let me say I sympathize with you.  Don’t give up hope!  Myself I have had a very bizarre sleep schedule my whole life, but I feel better since I recently figured out I have Delayed Sleep Phase Syndrome (with a non-regular pattern and bouts of sleep-deprivation…but anyway…) I might not have any advice for you, but I have a question because I am very curious about sleep disorders.  This question is for anyone who happens to know:     Why/when are anti-depressants prescribed for sleeplessness?  Are they only used in cases like hers where the sleep is very abnormal? When I complained to my physician of frequent insomnia, I was first told to take benadryl, and another time prescribed Xanax (only 10 of them.)  So, those would be more in the sedative category I guess (with benadryl actually an antihistamine and drowsiness being a side-effect?) I always hated the way those made me feel the next day–I don’t WANT to sleep for 9-10 hours and wake up feeling as though I have a brick on my forehead!  I love to be awake and doing stuff.  I tried melatonin too–it made me groggy but did not make me want to sleep, and when I finally went to sleep it was for 9-10 hours and I’d wake up a little groggy.   So, now I know that my natural sleep schedule is somewhere around sleeping from 9AM to 5PM, and I’d be comfortable doing that.  BUT in the mean time, I have in the past lost jobs for being late, been late for class, and I can’t guarantee I’ll ever make it to the bank, the post office, a dentist appointment, etc.  I’m almost impossible to wake up before that time–I sleep through all kinds of alarm clocks.   Now I have to get a job (I’m beyond broke from my summertime binge of sleeping when I want–but I ended up feeling like I was home with a disability), which means I have to get up at a decent hour to apply for a job, even to apply to work the night shift.  I have just recently tried taking 5mg of Valium, and am amazed that it has worked great for me!  I thought I would end up feeling groggy, but I have felt sleepy in a natural way in about 15 minutes after taking it, and wake up in the morning (ok well, it’s still the afternoon, but at least it’s early afternoon) feeling ALERT, moreso than I normally do. My alarm clock wakes me up!  (Still takes a few to get me out of bed, but at least I hear the alarms now.)  And I can do that after sleeping only 6-7 hours. So, can anyone tell me about problems taking Valium in order to sleep? Is my reaction similar to other people’s, and could I possibly use it to reset my circadian clock?  I have only tried it three times so far. I’d much rather sleep naturally, but it looks like that’s not going to happen. Thanks for listening, ~Moo * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Speak out against hatred and discrimination! Write your Senators TODAY and tell them to vote NO to the ridiculous "Defense of marriage act." * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * http://www.mindspring.com/~moomoo/index.html

Response:

In <01bb6ec9.66374280$5de5d3c6@#glang

, "Lori Lang" <70471.1…@compuserve.com writes:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

I need some help from anyone who can give it.  I’m 36 years old and I’ve been an insomniac my whole life.  I have trouble getting to sleep and if I get to sleep I can’t stay asleep.  I get 2-3 hours of sleep a night.  When I was young, I started taking antihistamines at night (I had allergies) and although I didn’t feel great the next day, I slept.  Any time I didn’t take them, no sleep.  I’ve gone more than a week with no sleep at different times in my life.  I could take antihistamines until last year, when they started irritating my stomach.  I had to get some help. I follow all of the rules:  no eating after dinner, turn down the lights at night, meditate, stress reduction, blah blah blah.  I’m convinced that whoever came up with the list has never had a sleepless night, because those things don’t seem to matter.  I’ve tried melatonin, homeopathic remedies, acupuncture, herbs.  I finally went to the doctor and had a sleep study done.  It came back that my sleep is severely abnormal, I’m not getting to stage 3 or 4, and that I should take antidepressants.   I’ve tried 4 different antidepressants.  I had allergic reactions to 2 of them (Prozac, Effexor), and two made me sick (Pamelor, Serzone).  The only thing that has helped is Ambien, but that’s nothing that anyone will prescribe for me on an ongoing basis.  But it’s heaven.  It’s the only thing that works. Unfortunately, I’m not someone who feels okay without sleep.  I’ve been told by three doctors now just to live with it because that’s the way I am.  I’d almost rather be dead than live like this.  It’s a nightmare (so to speak).

Nobody feels okay without sleep.  Almost everyone on this newsgroup knows how devistating sleep deprivation can be.  It’s a shame you found three separate doctors who merely told you to "live with it".  Are these general practitioners? Have you seen a sleep specialist?  It seems to me that you need the help of someone who specializes in sleep problems and can understand the severity of your problems when you don’t sleep.  I don’t know too much about Ambien but I have seen postings here from people who have taken it regularly – one person for a couple years, I believe. Please, see a doctor who is both willing and capable of understanding your sleep problems.  Too many doctors know very little about sleep disorders and don’t understand their seriousness. –BillM

Response:

I need some help from anyone who can give it.  I’m 36 years old and I’ve been an insomniac my whole life.  I have trouble getting to sleep and if I get to sleep I can’t stay asleep.  I get 2-3 hours of sleep a night.  When I was young, I started taking antihistamines at night (I had allergies) and although I didn’t feel great the next day, I slept.  Any time I didn’t take them, no sleep.  I’ve gone more than a week with no sleep at different times in my life.  I could take antihistamines until last year, when they started irritating my stomach.  I had to get some help. I follow all of the rules:  no eating after dinner, turn down the lights at night, meditate, stress reduction, blah blah blah.  I’m convinced that whoever came up with the list has never had a sleepless night, because those things don’t seem to matter.  I’ve tried melatonin, homeopathic remedies, acupuncture, herbs.  I finally went to the doctor and had a sleep study done.  It came back that my sleep is severely abnormal, I’m not getting to stage 3 or 4, and that I should take antidepressants.   I’ve tried 4 different antidepressants.  I had allergic reactions to 2 of them (Prozac, Effexor), and two made me sick (Pamelor, Serzone).  The only thing that has helped is Ambien, but that’s nothing that anyone will prescribe for me on an ongoing basis.  But it’s heaven.  It’s the only thing that works. Unfortunately, I’m not someone who feels okay without sleep.  I’ve been told by three doctors now just to live with it because that’s the way I am.  I’d almost rather be dead than live like this.  It’s a nightmare (so to speak). Does anyone have anything to offer that I haven’t tried? Thank you.  Sorry if I sound whiney, I’m just sort of desperate. Lori

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