Question:

Allen, I’ve never heard of Cymbalta, what’s its closest relative ? Sounds like you’ve tried them all. Good luck my friend. LJ

It’s a new SNRI cooked up recently by those lovely folks at Eli-Lilly that also gave us Prozac. P. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve been prescribed Cymbalta by my MD yesterday. 30mg pills and I am told to increase to 60mg when I feel ready and if I am not feeling any side effects. Yesterday was the first day I was on it and I didn’t have any side effects except for fatique. The Fatique seems less today. Do people think this may possible be a good drug for panic disorder, depression and dysthymia? I’ve been off medication for almost a year, so now I’m on klonopin 1mg 2x a day, along with Restoril 15mg-30mg at night as needed and the Cymbalta of course. Drugs prior to this always seem to work for a few short weeks, but they always poop out. I’ve been on Lexapro, Celexa, Zoloft, Paxil, Effexor XR, Imipramine, Desipramine, and Amitryptiline, Xanax, Valium, Ativan and Provigil for depression and anxiety. I’m just looking for any words of help and information. I hope this drug works out for me as I don’t know what else there is for me to try. I see a psychiatrist sometime this week if she can get me in and I’ll see what she says about the current regimine I am on. Thanks for any ideas and help. — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

– The charter is available at:

Question:

Actually, the story is a bit more complicated. He was supposed to start on 10 mg, go to 20 mg (10×2) in a week, then 30 (10×3). The pharmacy goofed and put 18s in the bottle, so he started on 18. He experienced almost immediate positive affects, in terms of behavior in school. But he also was having drowsy spells and stomach aches, and sometimes just seems drugged up – he falls asleep in the car for the first time since he was an infant. Fortunately, we noticed the error before it was time for him to take two, and immediately cut him back to 10. Which brings us to our present circumstances – side effects with 18, insufficient effects with 10. During his time with me this summer, I have chosen to give him 10 – he has more chance for physical exercise, and less requirement to be still and attentive. But I’m more interested in determining a good long-term solution for him, and none has been forthcoming from his physicial or Lilly.

You need to give the drug time, a few weeks, before you will know what staying side effects will be. Drowsiness and stomach aches are common on reuptake inhibitors and often go away with time. You have raised another issue as regards the four hour half life. His physician’s solution to the side-effects was to suggest he take the medication in the evening. I was concerned that he was still being overmedicated, but just sleeping through the symptoms. But I am now further concerned that by giving him the medication in the evening, most of the effect is wasted, thus requiring a higher dosage to maintain the effect. Also, his physician said that it builds up in the blood, but this is also apparently wrong. More info on half-life and other issues at: http://www.mosbysdrugconsult.com/DrugConsult/003578.html

Taking it at night to avoid drowsiness during the day is a good idea and often helps reduce drowsiness – not always, but sometimes. Taking it at night will make no difference to its positive effects. With reuptake inhibitors, the blood half life has little to do with the positive effect. However, it may have a lot to do with side effects. These are nothing like stimulants where you only have an effect while it is in your blood. Reuptake inhibitors can take weeks before the drugs start having the effect you want, and after you quit can take a long time to stop "working" also. Just follow your doctors orders and stop panicking.

Response:

The pharmacy goofed and put 18s in the bottle, so he started on 18. He experienced almost immediate positive affects, in terms of behavior in school. But he also was having drowsy spells and stomach aches, and sometimes just seems drugged up – he falls asleep in the car for the first time since he was an infant. Fortunately, we noticed the error before it was time for him to take two, and immediately cut him back to 10. Which brings us to our present circumstances – side effects with 18, insufficient effects with 10.

In our experience (our son is 10) the side effects you mentioned go away pretty quickly — and were greatly lessened by dosing at night (which we still do). The medication has been very helpful for us. I suggest you go back to 18 and take it at night.  In time, you may be able to switch to morning dosing (we may do this when school starts; right now bedtime is a much more predictable time than morning is.) -Dawn Mom to Henry, 10

Response:

Actually, the story is a bit more complicated. He was supposed to start on 10 mg, go to 20 mg (10×2) in a week, then 30 (10×3). The pharmacy goofed and put 18s in the bottle, so he started on 18. He experienced almost immediate positive affects, in terms of behavior in school. But he also was having drowsy spells and stomach aches, and sometimes just seems drugged up – he falls asleep in the car for the first time since he was an infant. Fortunately, we noticed the error before it was time for him to take two, and immediately cut him back to 10. Which brings us to our present circumstances – side effects with 18, insufficient effects with 10. During his time with me this summer, I have chosen to give him 10 – he has more chance for physical exercise, and less requirement to be still and attentive. But I’m more interested in determining a good long-term solution for him, and none has been forthcoming from his physicial or Lilly. You have raised another issue as regards the four hour half life. His physician’s solution to the side-effects was to suggest he take the medication in the evening. I was concerned that he was still being overmedicated, but just sleeping through the symptoms. But I am now further concerned that by giving him the medication in the evening, most of the effect is wasted, thus requiring a higher dosage to maintain the effect. Also, his physician said that it builds up in the blood, but this is also apparently wrong. More info on half-life and other issues at: http://www.mosbysdrugconsult.com/DrugConsult/003578.html

Response:

Actually, the story is a bit more complicated. He was supposed to start on 10 mg, go to 20 mg (10×2) in a week, then 30 (10×3). The pharmacy goofed and put 18s in the bottle, so he started on 18. He experienced almost immediate positive affects, in terms of behavior in school. But he also was having drowsy spells and stomach aches, and sometimes just seems drugged up – he falls asleep in the car for the first time since he was an infant.

Is he sleeping the night through?  One side effect some people experience with Strattera is that it interrupts their sleep.  I wasn’t able to sleep more than 3 hours at a stretch when I was on it. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Fortunately, we noticed the error before it was time for him to take two, and immediately cut him back to 10. Which brings us to our present circumstances – side effects with 18, insufficient effects with 10. During his time with me this summer, I have chosen to give him 10 – he has more chance for physical exercise, and less requirement to be still and attentive. But I’m more interested in determining a good long-term solution for him, and none has been forthcoming from his physicial or Lilly. You have raised another issue as regards the four hour half life. His physician’s solution to the side-effects was to suggest he take the medication in the evening. I was concerned that he was still being overmedicated, but just sleeping through the symptoms. But I am now further concerned that by giving him the medication in the evening, most of the effect is wasted, thus requiring a higher dosage to maintain the effect. Also, his physician said that it builds up in the blood, but this is also apparently wrong. More info on half-life and other issues at: http://www.mosbysdrugconsult.com/DrugConsult/003578.html

– –John Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Response:

So far as I know, he is sleeping through the night. The problem we’re having is that when he takes 18 mg, he is often drowsy during the day. The doctor’s solution to this was to switch to giving him the medication at dinner instead of breakfast. This seems foolish to me, though – Strattera levels peak in 1-2 hours, and it has a half-life of 5.2 hours. So by morning, 3/4 of the medication is gone. Seems better to me to give him the medication two hours before school for maximum effect. However, the Lilly support rep said that effects of Strattera persist after blood levels drop – she said they suspect it stays in the brain after it is gone from the blood, but they aren’t sure about this. I am leaning toward morning administration on an empty stomach, and we’ll see how that goes. I just wish there were more authoritative guidance on this.

Response:

My 7 year old son has been using Strattera for about a month, with reportedly good effects. Unfortunately, it seems that 10 mg is not enough for him, but 18 mg produces substantial side-effects. Since there is no such thing as 14 mg, and you can’t break the capsules, does anyone have any experience with daily alternating between 10 and 18 mg?  His physician is making contradictory statements – on the one hand, you must never miss a day on Strattera because it builds up in your blood – but on the other hand, alternating dosages will create huge swings in effect. It seems to me that if it’s a cumulative buildup, there should be very little swinging induced by alternating doses. Lilly says they have no information on this since it wasn’t part of their clinical trial.

Response:

What are the side effects? If he has only been on 18mg for a week, that is probably not long enough to judge the side effects. With these types of drugs, often the initial side effects go away. Maybe not, but I would give it more than two weeks and then start looking at the side effects. The half-life of Strattera is only about 4 hours. So, you wont get any smoothing out of blood levels by alternating doses. You start fresh every day with Strattera. Thats not to say other mechanisms besides blood levels wont smooth out somehow. I dont know. This page is where I found the half-life: http://lists.chadd-mc.org/pipermail/chadd-mc/2002-November/000063.html For me, the nausea side effects from Effexor (which partly inhibits the reuptake of norepinephrine like Strattra dose) went away in a few days. The sleepy side effects never went away. I doubt you will know ahead of time if alternating between 10 and 18 would work. Some of the side effects happen immediately, others take time. Going from 10mg to 18, you would be taking almost double the dose every other day. You would NEVER do this with Effexor, for example – because you would be nauseous and have a headache every day. You would go though withdrawal on the half-dose days, and experience the side effects of the increased dose on the double-dose days. At least with Effexor, and other anti-depressants (I cant say about Strattera) its very important to have a steady dose. Any variation only causes more side effects. You probably can open the capsule and remove 22% of the contents. Doctors rarely let you do this because they dont trust you to do it right. And, some of them may mistakenly believe you will disrupt the absorption or time-release functions of the capsule. Anyone with any sense of statistics would see this is not a problem except for specialized capsules like Concerta. But, Strattera is not a time-release capsule anyway. And there would be no change in absorption. Again, I am curious, what are the side effects? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My 7 year old son has been using Strattera for about a month, with reportedly good effects. Unfortunately, it seems that 10 mg is not enough for him, but 18 mg produces substantial side-effects. Since there is no such thing as 14 mg, and you can’t break the capsules, does anyone have any experience with daily alternating between 10 and 18 mg?  His physician is making contradictory statements – on the one hand, you must never miss a day on Strattera because it builds up in your blood – but on the other hand, alternating dosages will create huge swings in effect. It seems to me that if it’s a cumulative buildup, there should be very little swinging induced by alternating doses. Lilly says they have no information on this since it wasn’t part of their clinical trial.

Response:

Question:

How many here are at least 50 years old? If you are what anti-depressant are you using and have you been using it since turning 50 years young? I know this probably doesn’t make much sense to lots of people in here–but I’m trying to find out if one medicine is prescribed more for older folks? We live in a world of numbers and age of course bing the biggest factor of all in the numbers "game". (Another example of numbers that I read is that 66% of all alcoholics who have quit drinking, have mental problems of some sort) Even car insurance companies use age in figuring their fees for insurance–another number. What is your income level–another number. So what I’m asking here is simple. 50 years of age and up: what anti-depressant are you taking and how is it working for you? Now if no one replies, then I know that I’m the oldie in here. Thanks Much and allways remember in all you do this one very important factor: "If it doesn’t fit, You MUST acquit"

Response:

Dan: I am 51, and while I stopped taking meds this fall, I was previously on Celexa 20 mg for 3 years and Paxil 20 mg and then 30 mg for one year. – Anne

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How many here are at least 50 years old? If you are what anti-depressant are you using and have you been using it since turning 50 years young? I know this probably doesn’t make much sense to lots of people in here–but I’m trying to find out if one medicine is prescribed more for older folks? We live in a world of numbers and age of course bing the biggest factor of all in the numbers "game". (Another example of numbers that I read is that 66% of all alcoholics who have quit drinking, have mental problems of some sort) Even car insurance companies use age in figuring their fees for insurance–another number. What is your income level–another number. So what I’m asking here is simple. 50 years of age and up: what anti-depressant are you taking and how is it working for you? Now if no one replies, then I know that I’m the oldie in here. Thanks Much and allways remember in all you do this one very important factor: "If it doesn’t fit, You MUST acquit"

I am 54 and am currently on *imipramine* and Xanax and they work well for me. In the first 18 years or so of my PD which started in 1968 when I was 20 I was only on a benzo. Around age 42 or so I needed to add an AD which was *clomipramine*, another TCA (and one that is much researched and  often prescribed in Europe while imipramine seems more of an American first choice TCA). At some point clomipramine seemed to *poop out* on me and I tried SSRI’s and even the RIMA *moclobemide* (always together with a benzo) which worked but I seem to respond just a bit better to TCA’s. In my case I don’t think any of this has anything to do with age. Philip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -How many here are at least 50 years old? If you are what anti-depressant are you using and have you been using it since turning 50 years young? I know this probably doesn’t make much sense to lots of people in here–but I’m trying to find out if one medicine is prescribed more for older folks? We live in a world of numbers and age of course bing the biggest factor of all in the numbers "game". (Another example of numbers that I read is that 66% of all alcoholics who have quit drinking, have mental problems of some sort) Even car insurance companies use age in figuring their fees for insurance–another number. What is your income level–another number. So what I’m asking here is simple. 50 years of age and up: what anti-depressant are you taking and how is it working for you? Now if no one replies, then I know that I’m the oldie in here. Thanks Much and allways remember in all you do this one very important factor: "If it doesn’t fit, You MUST acquit"

I’m 57, and have been on the TCA dothiepin (prothiaden) for some years – though recently discontinued it, and have felt no ill effect from that: therapy alone is now enough for me. Before the TCA, I was on Paxil, which didn’t agree with me – too many side effects. If I needed an AD again, I would go back to dothiepin. -David-

Response:

Hi Dan! I’m 57 and I’ve been on Paxil for about 4 – 5 years.  I only require 10 mg.  I seem to be very sensitive to meds, but I don’t know if it’s due to age or not.  Even that amount, combined with .5 mg Ativan twice a day makes me lethargic. Dot

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How many here are at least 50 years old? If you are what anti-depressant are you using and have you been using it since turning 50 years young? I know this probably doesn’t make much sense to lots of people in here–but I’m trying to find out if one medicine is prescribed more for older folks? We live in a world of numbers and age of course bing the biggest factor of all in the numbers "game". (Another example of numbers that I read is that 66% of all alcoholics who have quit drinking, have mental problems of some sort) Even car insurance companies use age in figuring their fees for insurance–another number. What is your income level–another number. So what I’m asking here is simple. 50 years of age and up: what anti-depressant are you taking and how is it working for you? Now if no one replies, then I know that I’m the oldie in here. Thanks Much and allways remember in all you do this one very important factor: "If it doesn’t fit, You MUST acquit" I am 54 and am currently on *imipramine* and Xanax and they work well for me. In the first 18 years or so of my PD which started in 1968 when I was 20 I was only on a benzo. Around age 42 or so I needed to add an AD which was *clomipramine*, another TCA (and one that is much researched and  often prescribed in Europe while imipramine seems more of an American first choice TCA). At some point clomipramine seemed to *poop out* on me and I tried SSRI’s and even the RIMA *moclobemide* (always together with a benzo) which worked but I seem to respond just a bit better to TCA’s. In my case I don’t think any of this has anything to do with age. Philip Thanks Philip, Is that "imipramine" the generic name or the other name form.

It’s the generic name. Most common brand name: *Tofranil*. I should buy a medical book to look these up.

You can find them on the net at Arthur’s excellent dictionary at http://www.anxiety-panic.com Is it taken daily and in what measurements does it come.

Here the smalles dosage is 25 mg (and I also mean the pill is so small that one can hardly cut it in half). In the US tabs 0f 10 mg are available. It is taken daily, like with all AD’s it’s a matter of finding out whether taking it in the AM or in the PM agrees best with you. I actually take part of it in the AM and part of it in the PM, don’t really remember why Like all TCA’s is has a large therapeutic window, from 75 mg to, say, 225 mg. Too high TCA doses are toxic though which angain is individual and can, if necessary, being measured by blood work. (Just as a side note, my regular MD, told me yesterday–that I sould ask my psycharist to switch me to another medicine, when I told him I was no lonfer taking celexa-because of excessive sleepiness).

If that sleepiness bothers you too much it may be a good idea. I am going to ask my Pdoc about it–but I’m not so sure he’ll put me on it anyway.

Another good choice may be Effexor, a newer med which, like TCA’s but in a somewhat different way, targets both serotonin and norepinephrine receptors. The different types of doctors–if they do one thing–it is protect their territory–when you ask for a med. change.

I have been rather lucky in this dept. as my pdoc actually agreed to my own choice of meds. Also you MAY be right about age making no difference, but if so–then it’s one of those very RARE things where age doesn’t count.

This is a big *YMMV*, I was strictly talking about myself. Medication for the elderly (but we’re not yet there when we are in our fifties or early sixties IMO) can sometimes be different (as in smaller benzo doses, for instance, or no TCA’s when having cardiovascular problems etc.etc.) Philip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

So what I’m asking here is simple. 50 years of age and up: what anti-depressant are you taking and how is it working for you?

Zoloft for anxiety and depression, Ativan when needed, and Concerta to keep me peppy. Take care, Liz

Response:

So what I’m asking here is simple. 50 years of age and up: what anti-depressant are you taking and how is it working for you? Now if no one replies, then I know that I’m the oldie in here. I’m 58 and started Zoloft for depression 10 years ago (when I was 48). My dose of Zoloft depends on whether I am depressed or not. I also take a TCA called desipramine to boost the effects of the Zoloft. Zoloft works well for me. I take Klonopin for anxiety/panic/agoraphobia. Chip

Thank you each and every one . As for zoloft–I just could not take that–it kept me awake. Celexa–the opposite. Basically–I can use xanax for attacks of anxiety–with no problem, but I would definately like to try something else. Good suggestions here–will he write me something different is the question.

Response:

I am posting this for LM being his post never showed up – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -ubject: If You are at least 50 Years of age and on anti-depressants How many here are at least 50 years old? If you are what anti-depressant are you using and have you been using it since turning 50 years young? I know this probably doesn’t make much sense to lots of people in here–but I’m trying to find out if one medicine is prescribed more for older folks? We live in a world of numbers and age of course bing the biggest factor of all in the numbers "game". (Another example of numbers that I read is that 66% of all alcoholics who have quit drinking, have mental problems of some sort) Even car insurance companies use age in figuring their fees for insurance–another number. What is your income level–another number. So what I’m asking here is simple. 50 years of age and up: what anti-depressant are you taking and how is it working for you? Now if no one replies, then I know that I’m the oldie in here. Thanks Much and allways remember in all you do this one very important factor: "If it doesn’t fit, You MUST acquit"

the only time age is a factor in prescribing any medication is if the patient is geriatric in nature, or has some compromised abilities in metabolizing some types of drugs-usually the longer half life drugs like valium, klonopin and prozac etc… other then that profile of patient and drug are used as a methodology for prescribing LM ~*~I may not be perfectly beautiful, I may not be perfectly wise, I may not be perfectly obedient, but I am perfectly me~*~

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How many here are at least 50 years old? If you are what anti-depressant are you using and have you been using it since turning 50 years young? I know this probably doesn’t make much sense to lots of people in here–but I’m trying to find out if one medicine is prescribed more for older folks? We live in a world of numbers and age of course bing the biggest factor of all in the numbers "game". (Another example of numbers that I read is that 66% of all alcoholics who have quit drinking, have mental problems of some sort) Even car insurance companies use age in figuring their fees for insurance–another number. What is your income level–another number. So what I’m asking here is simple. 50 years of age and up: what anti-depressant are you taking and how is it working for you? Now if no one replies, then I know that I’m the oldie in here. Thanks Much and allways remember in all you do this one very important factor: "If it doesn’t fit, You MUST acquit" I am 54 and am currently on *imipramine* and Xanax and they work well for me. In the first 18 years or so of my PD which started in 1968 when I was 20 I was only on a benzo. Around age 42 or so I needed to add an AD which was *clomipramine*, another TCA (and one that is much researched and  often prescribed in Europe while imipramine seems more of an American first choice TCA). At some point clomipramine seemed to *poop out* on me and I tried SSRI’s and even the RIMA *moclobemide* (always together with a benzo) which worked but I seem to respond just a bit better to TCA’s. In my case I don’t think any of this has anything to do with age. Philip

Thanks Philip, Is that "imipramine" the generic name or the other name form. I should buy a medical book to look these up. Is it taken daily and in what measurements does it come. (Just as a side note, my regular MD, told me yesterday–that I sould ask my psycharist to switch me to another medicine, when I told him I was no lonfer taking celexa-because of excessive sleepiness). I am going to ask my Pdoc about it–but I’m not so sure he’ll put me on it anyway. The different types of doctors–if they do one thing–it is protect their territory–when you ask for a med. change. Also you MAY be right about age making no difference, but if so–then it’s one of those very RARE things where age doesn’t count. Thanks much for your comment.

Response:

So what I’m asking here is simple. 50 years of age and up: what anti-depressant are you taking and how is it working for you? Now if no one replies, then I know that I’m the oldie in here.

I’m 58 and started Zoloft for depression 10 years ago (when I was 48). My dose of Zoloft depends on whether I am depressed or not. I also take a TCA called desipramine to boost the effects of the Zoloft. Zoloft works well for me. I take Klonopin for anxiety/panic/agoraphobia. Chip

Response:

Question:

…from 3 years of Anafranil and Prozac.  Excuse this garbled message (probably a result of the damage, but I am so depressed right now because I know *exactly* what is wrong, but I am powerless to do anything about it. My brain is permanently fried from that med.  Here is the damage I notice: 1). Word retrieval – I can "picture" the word I want to say but I can’t find the word to use. Often, I have to substitute other, less efficient words to express what I’m trying to say. 2.) Thought retention – My mind just feels foggy and thoughts slip away very easily.  For example, when talking to myself I frequently have trouble recalling a sequence of thoughts from just a few seconds ago. It slips away so easily. My thoughts contain only about 2-3 words or "chunks" (at most). Beyond that I forget very easily.  Therefore, I lose the "word base" from which to form more complex thoughts. Everyone, please skip to the bottom if this post bores you. It is the absolute truth of my experience with SSRIs, and right now I’m feeling very frustrated at what is happening.. I’ve BEEN OFF MEDICATION FOR OVER A YEAR AND MY COGNITIVE ABILITIES HAVE NOT IMPROVED. Most of the damage (I feel) is subtle.. My doctor doesn’t believe there is damage. I have posted here once a long time ago and some people thought I was just an antimedication fanatic of the school of scientology.  Genimi from Vegas (don’t know if she still posts here) and "indiferent" were among those who believed it could/might happen. I believe I might have an oversensitivity in my brain that may have caused the damage to be GREATER than most people.. or maybe it is genetic. I do not know.  All I can tell you is my experience only, I have no scientific proof, all I’m saying is that I notice these effects LONG AFTER QUITTING, and I never HAD THESE PROBLEMS PRIOR TO THE MEDS.   Most of the effects are subtle, so this post may actually sound halfway intelligent. But if you read more closely, the word choice is very limited.. I can’t even explain the damage I feel because I’ve lost the rich, complex and fluid linguistic capacity to express it.   To have brain damage and KNOW it, but be unable to express it except in an adolescent fashion is a double-whammy to me.  I know this post is also disjointed and I use the word "I" too much.   That is also a sign of the damage, although no one on this board would know because I’ve never written here prior to the damage.   I can’t even convince my docs that this damage has really occurred, because I no longer have the verbal eloquence to express myself in a reasoned, intelligent way. I just sound hysterical and histrionical… as though these are just my fears and nothing else.  BUT I TELL YOU, I FEEL THE DAMAGE AND I’M ANGRY BECAUSE I DON’T KNOW HOW TO WORD IT IN QUITE A WAY THAT EXPRESSES HOW IT FEELS TO STRUGGLE WITH PERMANENT BRAIN DAMAGE.  I FEEL AS IF I’VE BEEN IN A CAR ACCIDENT, the damage feels very diffuse, as if my brain is a sweater that has gone through the dryer too many times – frayed synapses and torn connections.   I know this post also sounds very black and white, because I’ve lost my ability to employ my formally rich and subtle grasp of the English language to convey my point across… all I’m doing here is rambling and whining.  I think I’ve also lost some of my organizational ability (because my short-term memory is fried) so I’m sorry if this post is winding, convoluted and very horribly worded.   Also (I feel) Anafranil and Prozac have also given me acquired ADD (Attention Deficit Disorder). Sorry this post is so disorganized.  I can no longer express myself and I have trouble remembering where I am in a thought and where my thoughts are leading (if these are in fact thoughts at all!). The most frightening damaged I’ve noticed from the meds is that I found an old diary of mine (written 5 years ago PRIOR to the meds) and I’m amazed that some of the words used were even part of my vocabulary.  I no longer have the retention to recall those words or their context of usage.  SORRY IF I’M USING CAPS HERE BECAUSE MY WORDS NO LONGER HAVE ANY IMPACT AND I AM UNABLE TO EXPRESS MYSELF EXCEPT LIKE A TEENAGER. This is not to scare people off meds. Some people will need them for life because their symptoms are so severe. I’m just talking from my own experience with one (Anafranil), and am expressing my frustration and sadness from the loss(es) I’ve experienced more than anything.. I also notice a permanent emotional flattening (or dulling) that I can’t explain either.  This is very scary to me also, because I’m only 35 and have many more years to live.   I am almost certain that if this gets worse over time, and the damage is compounded with natural deterioration from aging, I will no longer want to be alive.     I am a shell of my former self, and am struggling with these subtle cognitive effects THAT HAVE NOT LET UP EVEN AFTER OVER A YEAR BEING OFF THE ANAFRANIL AND PROZAC. So obviously something has happened, but I don’t know what.  Obviously my psychiatrist won’t tell me anything because THAT’S WHAT HE IS PAID TO DO – PRESCRIBE MEDICATION!  Most of his education (I’m sure) is funded by the drug companies.. and I’m sure he rationalizes his prescribing of this brain damaging shit by thinking "Oh, well if she kills herself or something, then I can’t say I didn’t try my best to help her."   No doubt, SSRI’s and other meds have some positive effects. The *only* positive effect I’ve noticed is my lows aren’t quite as low as they used to be. That’s about it.  Other than that, I’m a brain damaged vegetable who can no longer carry on a conversation. THERE ARE NO THOUGHTS IN MY HEAD ANYMORE.  I struggle to write this post.  I’m sure it is longwinded as I’ve completely lost my sense of verbal precision. I hope someone who has had the same experience can post. I feel so alone. patricia

Response:

Hi Patricia.. I dont know how long ago you posted but people here do now take seriously the side and after effects of medications.. Many here suffer from such and are dealing with them.. Off the bat I have to say whatever you think.. your post is intelligent..  coherent and extremely articulate..not at all as you imagine it to be Gemini does still post here and I am sure will respond. there are many here who have had or are having similar experiences so you dont have to feel so alone .. It is usenet. so you could just ignore the occasional scienos under the beds post. Im sorry you are struggling with such problems and fears but you are by no means on your own. regards, Bob

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – …from 3 years of Anafranil and Prozac.  Excuse this garbled message (probably a result of the damage, but I am so depressed right now because I know *exactly* what is wrong, but I am powerless to do anything about it. My brain is permanently fried from that med.  Here is the damage I notice: 1). Word retrieval – I can "picture" the word I want to say but I can’t find the word to use. Often, I have to substitute other, less efficient words to express what I’m trying to say. 2.) Thought retention – My mind just feels foggy and thoughts slip away very easily.  For example, when talking to myself I frequently have trouble recalling a sequence of thoughts from just a few seconds ago. It slips away so easily. My thoughts contain only about 2-3 words or "chunks" (at most). Beyond that I forget very easily.  Therefore, I lose the "word base" from which to form more complex thoughts. Everyone, please skip to the bottom if this post bores you. It is the absolute truth of my experience with SSRIs, and right now I’m feeling very frustrated at what is happening.. I’ve BEEN OFF MEDICATION FOR OVER A YEAR AND MY COGNITIVE ABILITIES HAVE NOT IMPROVED. Most of the damage (I feel) is subtle.. My doctor doesn’t believe there is damage. I have posted here once a long time ago and some people thought I was just an antimedication fanatic of the school of scientology.  Genimi from Vegas (don’t know if she still posts here) and "indiferent" were among those who believed it could/might happen. I believe I might have an oversensitivity in my brain that may have caused the damage to be GREATER than most people.. or maybe it is genetic. I do not know.  All I can tell you is my experience only, I have no scientific proof, all I’m saying is that I notice these effects LONG AFTER QUITTING, and I never HAD THESE PROBLEMS PRIOR TO THE MEDS. Most of the effects are subtle, so this post may actually sound halfway intelligent. But if you read more closely, the word choice is very limited.. I can’t even explain the damage I feel because I’ve lost the rich, complex and fluid linguistic capacity to express it. To have brain damage and KNOW it, but be unable to express it except in an adolescent fashion is a double-whammy to me.  I know this post is also disjointed and I use the word "I" too much.   That is also a sign of the damage, although no one on this board would know because I’ve never written here prior to the damage. I can’t even convince my docs that this damage has really occurred, because I no longer have the verbal eloquence to express myself in a reasoned, intelligent way. I just sound hysterical and histrionical… as though these are just my fears and nothing else.  BUT I TELL YOU, I FEEL THE DAMAGE AND I’M ANGRY BECAUSE I DON’T KNOW HOW TO WORD IT IN QUITE A WAY THAT EXPRESSES HOW IT FEELS TO STRUGGLE WITH PERMANENT BRAIN DAMAGE.  I FEEL AS IF I’VE BEEN IN A CAR ACCIDENT, the damage feels very diffuse, as if my brain is a sweater that has gone through the dryer too many times – frayed synapses and torn connections. I know this post also sounds very black and white, because I’ve lost my ability to employ my formally rich and subtle grasp of the English language to convey my point across… all I’m doing here is rambling and whining.  I think I’ve also lost some of my organizational ability (because my short-term memory is fried) so I’m sorry if this post is winding, convoluted and very horribly worded. Also (I feel) Anafranil and Prozac have also given me acquired ADD (Attention Deficit Disorder). Sorry this post is so disorganized.  I can no longer express myself and I have trouble remembering where I am in a thought and where my thoughts are leading (if these are in fact thoughts at all!). The most frightening damaged I’ve noticed from the meds is that I found an old diary of mine (written 5 years ago PRIOR to the meds) and I’m amazed that some of the words used were even part of my vocabulary.  I no longer have the retention to recall those words or their context of usage.  SORRY IF I’M USING CAPS HERE BECAUSE MY WORDS NO LONGER HAVE ANY IMPACT AND I AM UNABLE TO EXPRESS MYSELF EXCEPT LIKE A TEENAGER. This is not to scare people off meds. Some people will need them for life because their symptoms are so severe. I’m just talking from my own experience with one (Anafranil), and am expressing my frustration and sadness from the loss(es) I’ve experienced more than anything.. I also notice a permanent emotional flattening (or dulling) that I can’t explain either.  This is very scary to me also, because I’m only 35 and have many more years to live. I am almost certain that if this gets worse over time, and the damage is compounded with natural deterioration from aging, I will no longer want to be alive. I am a shell of my former self, and am struggling with these subtle cognitive effects THAT HAVE NOT LET UP EVEN AFTER OVER A YEAR BEING OFF THE ANAFRANIL AND PROZAC. So obviously something has happened, but I don’t know what.  Obviously my psychiatrist won’t tell me anything because THAT’S WHAT HE IS PAID TO DO – PRESCRIBE MEDICATION!  Most of his education (I’m sure) is funded by the drug companies.. and I’m sure he rationalizes his prescribing of this brain damaging shit by thinking "Oh, well if she kills herself or something, then I can’t say I didn’t try my best to help her." No doubt, SSRI’s and other meds have some positive effects. The *only* positive effect I’ve noticed is my lows aren’t quite as low as they used to be. That’s about it.  Other than that, I’m a brain damaged vegetable who can no longer carry on a conversation. THERE ARE NO THOUGHTS IN MY HEAD ANYMORE.  I struggle to write this post.  I’m sure it is longwinded as I’ve completely lost my sense of verbal precision. I hope someone who has had the same experience can post. I feel so alone. patricia

Response:

Dear Patricia, I have a background in writing — I have also up to this past June 2001 been on a variety of psychiatric drugs… such as Lithium , Seroquel, Tompamax and Carbamazepine.  I did find taking this combination of cocktail… to be rather disturbing in respect to my language and cognitive abilities.  When attempts were made to speak — often I had problems bringing out the exact wordage I wanted to use. However since June, I have gradually taken myself off of all of the above medications and as of tomorrow will be going back onto just 100mg of Topamax, I have otherwise found myself to better concentrate since being off of the above mentioned cocktail combination. In respect to your message here.  I had found no difficulty in understanding what you were trying to express…. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – …from 3 years of Anafranil and Prozac.  Excuse this garbled message (probably a result of the damage, but I am so depressed right now because I know *exactly* what is wrong, but I am powerless to do anything about it. My brain is permanently fried from that med.  Here is the damage I notice: 1). Word retrieval – I can "picture" the word I want to say but I can’t find the word to use. Often, I have to substitute other, less efficient words to express what I’m trying to say. 2.) Thought retention – My mind just feels foggy and thoughts slip away very easily.  For example, when talking to myself I frequently have trouble recalling a sequence of thoughts from just a few seconds ago. It slips away so easily. My thoughts contain only about 2-3 words or "chunks" (at most). Beyond that I forget very easily.  Therefore, I lose the "word base" from which to form more complex thoughts. Everyone, please skip to the bottom if this post bores you. It is the absolute truth of my experience with SSRIs, and right now I’m feeling very frustrated at what is happening.. I’ve BEEN OFF MEDICATION FOR OVER A YEAR AND MY COGNITIVE ABILITIES HAVE NOT IMPROVED. Most of the damage (I feel) is subtle.. My doctor doesn’t believe there is damage. I have posted here once a long time ago and some people thought I was just an antimedication fanatic of the school of scientology.  Genimi from Vegas (don’t know if she still posts here) and "indiferent" were among those who believed it could/might happen. I believe I might have an oversensitivity in my brain that may have caused the damage to be GREATER than most people.. or maybe it is genetic. I do not know.  All I can tell you is my experience only, I have no scientific proof, all I’m saying is that I notice these effects LONG AFTER QUITTING, and I never HAD THESE PROBLEMS PRIOR TO THE MEDS. Most of the effects are subtle, so this post may actually sound halfway intelligent. But if you read more closely, the word choice is very limited.. I can’t even explain the damage I feel because I’ve lost the rich, complex and fluid linguistic capacity to express it. To have brain damage and KNOW it, but be unable to express it except in an adolescent fashion is a double-whammy to me.  I know this post is also disjointed and I use the word "I" too much.   That is also a sign of the damage, although no one on this board would know because I’ve never written here prior to the damage. I can’t even convince my docs that this damage has really occurred, because I no longer have the verbal eloquence to express myself in a reasoned, intelligent way. I just sound hysterical and histrionical… as though these are just my fears and nothing else.  BUT I TELL YOU, I FEEL THE DAMAGE AND I’M ANGRY BECAUSE I DON’T KNOW HOW TO WORD IT IN QUITE A WAY THAT EXPRESSES HOW IT FEELS TO STRUGGLE WITH PERMANENT BRAIN DAMAGE.  I FEEL AS IF I’VE BEEN IN A CAR ACCIDENT, the damage feels very diffuse, as if my brain is a sweater that has gone through the dryer too many times – frayed synapses and torn connections. I know this post also sounds very black and white, because I’ve lost my ability to employ my formally rich and subtle grasp of the English language to convey my point across… all I’m doing here is rambling and whining.  I think I’ve also lost some of my organizational ability (because my short-term memory is fried) so I’m sorry if this post is winding, convoluted and very horribly worded. Also (I feel) Anafranil and Prozac have also given me acquired ADD (Attention Deficit Disorder). Sorry this post is so disorganized.  I can no longer express myself and I have trouble remembering where I am in a thought and where my thoughts are leading (if these are in fact thoughts at all!). The most frightening damaged I’ve noticed from the meds is that I found an old diary of mine (written 5 years ago PRIOR to the meds) and I’m amazed that some of the words used were even part of my vocabulary.  I no longer have the retention to recall those words or their context of usage.  SORRY IF I’M USING CAPS HERE BECAUSE MY WORDS NO LONGER HAVE ANY IMPACT AND I AM UNABLE TO EXPRESS MYSELF EXCEPT LIKE A TEENAGER. This is not to scare people off meds. Some people will need them for life because their symptoms are so severe. I’m just talking from my own experience with one (Anafranil), and am expressing my frustration and sadness from the loss(es) I’ve experienced more than anything.. I also notice a permanent emotional flattening (or dulling) that I can’t explain either.  This is very scary to me also, because I’m only 35 and have many more years to live. I am almost certain that if this gets worse over time, and the damage is compounded with natural deterioration from aging, I will no longer want to be alive. I am a shell of my former self, and am struggling with these subtle cognitive effects THAT HAVE NOT LET UP EVEN AFTER OVER A YEAR BEING OFF THE ANAFRANIL AND PROZAC. So obviously something has happened, but I don’t know what.  Obviously my psychiatrist won’t tell me anything because THAT’S WHAT HE IS PAID TO DO – PRESCRIBE MEDICATION!  Most of his education (I’m sure) is funded by the drug companies.. and I’m sure he rationalizes his prescribing of this brain damaging shit by thinking "Oh, well if she kills herself or something, then I can’t say I didn’t try my best to help her." No doubt, SSRI’s and other meds have some positive effects. The *only* positive effect I’ve noticed is my lows aren’t quite as low as they used to be. That’s about it.  Other than that, I’m a brain damaged vegetable who can no longer carry on a conversation. THERE ARE NO THOUGHTS IN MY HEAD ANYMORE.  I struggle to write this post.  I’m sure it is longwinded as I’ve completely lost my sense of verbal precision. I hope someone who has had the same experience can post. I feel so alone. patricia

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – …from 3 years of Anafranil and Prozac.  Excuse this garbled message (probably a result of the damage, but I am so depressed right now because I know *exactly* what is wrong, but I am powerless to do anything about it. My brain is permanently fried from that med.  Here is the damage I notice: 1). Word retrieval – I can "picture" the word I want to say but I can’t find the word to use. Often, I have to substitute other, less efficient words to express what I’m trying to say. 2.) Thought retention – My mind just feels foggy and thoughts slip away very easily.  For example, when talking to myself I frequently have trouble recalling a sequence of thoughts from just a few seconds ago. It slips away so easily. My thoughts contain only about 2-3 words or "chunks" (at most). Beyond that I forget very easily.  Therefore, I lose the "word base" from which to form more complex thoughts. Everyone, please skip to the bottom if this post bores you. It is the absolute truth of my experience with SSRIs, and right now I’m feeling very frustrated at what is happening.. I’ve BEEN OFF MEDICATION FOR OVER A YEAR AND MY COGNITIVE ABILITIES HAVE NOT IMPROVED. Most of the damage (I feel) is subtle.. My doctor doesn’t believe there is damage. I have posted here once a long time ago and some people thought I was just an antimedication fanatic of the school of scientology.  Genimi from Vegas (don’t know if she still posts here) and "indiferent" were among those who believed it could/might happen. I believe I might have an oversensitivity in my brain that may have caused the damage to be GREATER than most people.. or maybe it is genetic. I do not know.  All I can tell you is my experience only, I have no scientific proof, all I’m saying is that I notice these effects LONG AFTER QUITTING, and I never HAD THESE PROBLEMS PRIOR TO THE MEDS. Most of the effects are subtle, so this post may actually sound halfway intelligent. But if you read more closely, the word choice is very limited.. I can’t even explain the damage I feel because I’ve lost the rich, complex and fluid linguistic capacity to express it. To have brain damage and KNOW it, but be unable to express it except in an adolescent fashion is a double-whammy to me.  I know this post is also disjointed and I use the word "I" too much.   That is also a sign of the damage, although no one on this board would know because I’ve never written here prior to the damage. I can’t even convince my docs that this damage has really occurred, because I no longer have the verbal eloquence to express myself in a reasoned, intelligent way. I just sound hysterical and histrionical… as though these are just my fears and nothing else.  BUT I TELL YOU, I FEEL THE DAMAGE AND I’M ANGRY BECAUSE I DON’T KNOW HOW TO WORD IT IN QUITE A WAY THAT EXPRESSES HOW IT FEELS TO STRUGGLE WITH PERMANENT BRAIN DAMAGE.  I FEEL AS IF I’VE BEEN IN A CAR ACCIDENT, the damage feels very diffuse, as if my brain is a sweater that has gone through the dryer too many times – frayed synapses and torn connections. I know this post also sounds very black and white, because I’ve lost my ability to employ my formally rich and subtle grasp of the English language to convey my point across… all I’m doing here is rambling and whining.  I think I’ve also lost some of my organizational ability (because my short-term memory is fried) so I’m sorry if this post is winding, convoluted and very horribly worded. Also (I feel) Anafranil and Prozac have also given me acquired ADD (Attention Deficit Disorder). Sorry this post is so disorganized.  I can no longer express myself and I have trouble remembering where I am in a thought and where my thoughts are leading (if these are in fact thoughts at all!). The most frightening damaged I’ve noticed from the meds is that I found an old diary of mine (written 5 years ago PRIOR to the meds) and I’m amazed that some of the words used were even part of my vocabulary.  I no longer have the retention to recall those words or their context of usage.  SORRY IF I’M USING CAPS HERE BECAUSE MY WORDS NO LONGER HAVE ANY IMPACT AND I AM UNABLE TO EXPRESS MYSELF EXCEPT LIKE A TEENAGER. This is not to scare people off meds. Some people will need them for life because their symptoms are so severe. I’m just talking from my own experience with one (Anafranil), and am expressing my frustration and sadness from the loss(es) I’ve experienced more than anything.. I also notice a permanent emotional flattening (or dulling) that I can’t explain either.  This is very scary to me also, because I’m only 35 and have many more years to live. I am almost certain that if this gets worse over time, and the damage is compounded with natural deterioration from aging, I will no longer want to be alive. I am a shell of my former self, and am struggling with these subtle cognitive effects THAT HAVE NOT LET UP EVEN AFTER OVER A YEAR BEING OFF THE ANAFRANIL AND PROZAC. So obviously something has happened, but I don’t know what.  Obviously my psychiatrist won’t tell me anything because THAT’S WHAT HE IS PAID TO DO – PRESCRIBE MEDICATION!  Most of his education (I’m sure) is funded by the drug companies.. and I’m sure he rationalizes his prescribing of this brain damaging shit by thinking "Oh, well if she kills herself or something, then I can’t say I didn’t try my best to help her." No doubt, SSRI’s and other meds have some positive effects. The *only* positive effect I’ve noticed is my lows aren’t quite as low as they used to be. That’s about it.  Other than that, I’m a brain damaged vegetable who can no longer carry on a conversation. THERE ARE NO THOUGHTS IN MY HEAD ANYMORE.  I struggle to write this post.  I’m sure it is longwinded as I’ve completely lost my sense of verbal precision. I hope someone who has had the same experience can post. I feel so alone. patricia

Hi Patricia:     I suffer a lot of the *brain damage* descriptions you mention.  These are quite normal for persons suffering from depression.  I’ve taken every type of med there is and had ECTs.  I’m quite treatment resistant. Currently, I’m taking Parnate and Topamax.  Topamax does leave me *looking for that word* you describe.  This present combination is becoming more and more ineffective and will abandon it shortly and they are damaging my liver. But, sure I walk around feeling brain damaged.  For 3 years now – this time. Three years the last time also.  I’m told by my pdoc, I’m such a lovely candidate for recurring episodes of major depression.  I hope each episode they come up with newer and new and safer meds, huh?     Having ECTs has lead to a lot of comments from people referring to the fact that *hey, I bet you are brain damaged*.  I’ve never taken alcohol or rec drugs, and I often wonder how many of those people making statements like that to me can claim the same.  ha-ha.     I have days where I talk and forget what I’m talking about it while I’m talking about it.  So I just don’t talk.  I’m alone usually, so it does not matter.  I often go somewhere and can not remember why I’m there.  Upsetting event, because this will cause the usual panic and anxiety attack.     I’ve now entered the *zone* where I just don’t care really.  I have lost who I was and do not know who I can be.  I am constantly doubtful that I can contribute intelligently to a conversation with anyone in this group.  I believe depression the disease, wears out your brain.  If you are fortunate enough to find a compatible medication with your chemistry – viola – you become well and all the ugly symptoms you speak of will go unnoticed.  So will mine.     I’ve tried – Tricyclics (sp? – duh), Lithium, Prozac, Effexor, Paxil, Manerix, ECTs, Nardil (MAOI), Wellbutrin+Celexa, Parnate(MAOI)+Topamax(MS).     MAOIs do work for me, but dosage must be kept low due to liver problems. So why bother now?  I’m sure there are more we could chuck in there.     For me, a common side effect with everything (except MAOIs) was that I had to go to extremely high doses to get any effect and even that would wear out – but I would get all the side effects.  In a nutshell, I took ADs to get ugly side effects and no relief from major depression.     I often think that my existence is for what?  To live like a terrorized animal in a cage with my eyes open so wide that I don’t see anything? Noises so loud I don’t hear anything one thing?  How can live like this? And to know that ***IF*** this can be finally, after 3 years put under control, it is just going to return.     I have the age old question, why am I here?  What was my purpose?  I’ve have only one reason.  I brought the most wonderful son into the world who will be good and kind to all people.  A special person who a suffered a lot more than he should have already.  A natural peacekeeper. Take Care Sorry for my rambles Carrie

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Patricia…this is Gemini. So so sorry for what you been through and are going through and feeling.. I know what you are saying…it’s been nearly a year I been off all meds except thyroid meds. and its the same for me.. I  get called dummy girl, imbecile, demented, stupid, idiot..still on account of it. Tis not true. .Like you say, its subtle and effects ability to articulate,  access and retrieve right words, and such..not your thinking or cognition  itself.

Exactly. Even though I have somewhat of a muted picture of what I really want to say, I can’t find the words to say it.   What part(s) of the brain govern this I wonder? I researched it and there is now a NAME might apply  . P.A.N.E.S   for Persistant Adverse Neurological Effects Stopping SSRI’s I post any articles, I have found about it…

Thanks for posting it.  Maybe if it is an actual website I can add my own story to it.  Some of the symptoms described on that site are similar to mine – disinhibition (?), mild irritability and a mild facial tic. so do a  goggle search using  P.A.N.E.S  will produce one or more of the articles on it for you.. I think I know how scared you must be. (I am)

I’m very scared. I just don’t know how much damage it has done, and since I’m in my mid-thirties, will this effect multiply as I lose more cells due to aging? This whole thing is freaking me out. I been trying out and getting some relief, with dietary changes… then supplementing big time with a bunch of vitamins..etc.  I am now  looking into idea a gluten intolerance or food intolerance of some kind made it so..I didnt metabolize meds like NORM,  and they got delivered to my brain in a toxic fashion..for me.

What kind of vitamins do you take? Is it helping? You mention gluten intolerance.. do you mean MSG and soy products. I read somewhere that they can also have an impact on the brain. Holistic healing…research on my part, is ongoing  big time…researching chelation,  YOGA supposed to help,  BREATHING improving circulation, anything….  However I just breached the tip of the iceberg in those areas… SSRIS are vascocontricters,  maybe prolonged use makes it remain constricted unless you do a lot of shit to open up airways.. why I am looking into ways of opening up breathing so more oxygen to brain.. might dissipate a little of this problem Only thing helped me in years…alternate remedies.alll  .one by one adding up to improvements..

Thanks for posting. I would be very interested in what kinds of remedies specifically you’re using.   Its Jan…mid January  and the first one in a decade I wasnt on a med, where I didnt sink into clinicla depression, thanks to what I done so far.

That’s good. Depression is the worst evil, and if you can overcome that to some degree then you’ve succeeded. I was having a panic attack recently, and someone suggested I use this alternate breathing technique rather than call in for zanax, and IT stopped the growing panic,  dead.in a matter of hours..after I begun it. So I am hopeful…I can improve some fo the problems  via diet, exercise and knowlege of holistic,  living..and then living more holistically…

Thanks for sharing your hope. BTW, I’ll be checking this newsgroup on a regular basis (been a while since posting but I remember yours and Mike’s posts) and if you have time could you share some things that have worked for you the most cognitively speaking? I’m very interested. Gingko Biloba is something I’m considering now, but not sure about the long term effects (at least it is natural!)  - Patricia

Response:

Dear Patricia, I have a background in writing — I have also up to this past June 2001 been on a variety of psychiatric drugs… such as Lithium , Seroquel, Tompamax and Carbamazepine.  I did find taking this combination of cocktail… to be rather disturbing in respect to my language and cognitive abilities.  When attempts were made to speak — often I had problems bringing out the exact wordage I wanted to use.

Did you mean speaking vs. writing? I’m finding a problem with speaking even more than writing- at least on paper the previous thought is written down, so that is the crutch I use to recall my previous train of thought and continue it further. However since June, I have gradually taken myself off of all of the above medications and as of tomorrow will be going back onto just 100mg of Topamax, I have otherwise found myself to better concentrate since being off of the above mentioned cocktail combination.

How long were you on the other meds (excluding Topomax)? In respect to your message here.  I had found no difficulty in understanding what you were trying to express….

Same here in regards to your post.   Patricia – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – …from 3 years of Anafranil and Prozac.  Excuse this garbled message (probably a result of the damage, but I am so depressed right now because I know *exactly* what is wrong, but I am powerless to do anything about it. My brain is permanently fried from that med.  Here is the damage I notice: 1). Word retrieval – I can "picture" the word I want to say but I can’t find the word to use. Often, I have to substitute other, less efficient words to express what I’m trying to say. 2.) Thought retention – My mind just feels foggy and thoughts slip away very easily.  For example, when talking to myself I frequently have trouble recalling a sequence of thoughts from just a few seconds ago. It slips away so easily. My thoughts contain only about 2-3 words or "chunks" (at most). Beyond that I forget very easily.  Therefore, I lose the "word base" from which to form more complex thoughts. Everyone, please skip to the bottom if this post bores you. It is the absolute truth of my experience with SSRIs, and right now I’m feeling very frustrated at what is happening.. I’ve BEEN OFF MEDICATION FOR OVER A YEAR AND MY COGNITIVE ABILITIES HAVE NOT IMPROVED. Most of the damage (I feel) is subtle.. My doctor doesn’t believe there is damage. I have posted here once a long time ago and some people thought I was just an antimedication fanatic of the school of scientology.  Genimi from Vegas (don’t know if she still posts here) and "indiferent" were among those who believed it could/might happen. I believe I might have an oversensitivity in my brain that may have caused the damage to be GREATER than most people.. or maybe it is genetic. I do not know.  All I can tell you is my experience only, I have no scientific proof, all I’m saying is that I notice these effects LONG AFTER QUITTING, and I never HAD THESE PROBLEMS PRIOR TO THE MEDS. Most of the effects are subtle, so this post may actually sound halfway intelligent. But if you read more closely, the word choice is very limited.. I can’t even explain the damage I feel because I’ve lost the rich, complex and fluid linguistic capacity to express it. To have brain damage and KNOW it, but be unable to express it except in an adolescent fashion is a double-whammy to me.  I know this post is also disjointed and I use the word "I" too much.   That is also a sign of the damage, although no one on this board would know because I’ve never written here prior to the damage. I can’t even convince my docs that this damage has really occurred, because I no longer have the verbal eloquence to express myself in a reasoned, intelligent way. I just sound hysterical and histrionical… as though these are just my fears and nothing else.  BUT I TELL YOU, I FEEL THE DAMAGE AND I’M ANGRY BECAUSE I DON’T KNOW HOW TO WORD IT IN QUITE A WAY THAT EXPRESSES HOW IT FEELS TO STRUGGLE WITH PERMANENT BRAIN DAMAGE.  I FEEL AS IF I’VE BEEN IN A CAR ACCIDENT, the damage feels very diffuse, as if my brain is a sweater that has gone through the dryer too many times – frayed synapses and torn connections. I know this post also sounds very black and white, because I’ve lost my ability to employ my formally rich and subtle grasp of the English language to convey my point across… all I’m doing here is rambling and whining.  I think I’ve also lost some of my organizational ability (because my short-term memory is fried) so I’m sorry if this post is winding, convoluted and very horribly worded. Also (I feel) Anafranil and Prozac have also given me acquired ADD (Attention Deficit Disorder). Sorry this post is so disorganized.  I can no longer express myself and I have trouble remembering where I am in a thought and where my thoughts are leading (if these are in fact thoughts at all!). The most frightening damaged I’ve noticed from the meds is that I found an old diary of mine (written 5 years ago PRIOR to the meds) and I’m amazed that some of the words used were even part of my vocabulary.  I no longer have the retention to recall those words or their context of usage.  SORRY IF I’M USING CAPS HERE BECAUSE MY WORDS NO LONGER HAVE ANY IMPACT AND I AM UNABLE TO EXPRESS MYSELF EXCEPT LIKE A TEENAGER. This is not to scare people off meds. Some people will need them for life because their symptoms are so severe. I’m just talking from my own experience with one (Anafranil), and am expressing my frustration and sadness from the loss(es) I’ve experienced more than anything.. I also notice a permanent emotional flattening (or dulling) that I can’t explain either.  This is very scary to me also, because I’m only 35 and have many more years to live. I am almost certain that if this gets worse over time, and the damage is compounded with natural deterioration from aging, I will no longer want to be alive. I am a shell of my former self, and am struggling with these subtle cognitive effects THAT HAVE NOT LET UP EVEN AFTER OVER A YEAR BEING OFF THE ANAFRANIL AND PROZAC. So obviously something has happened, but I don’t know what.  Obviously my psychiatrist won’t tell me anything because THAT’S WHAT HE IS PAID TO DO – PRESCRIBE MEDICATION!  Most of his education (I’m sure) is funded by the drug companies.. and I’m sure he rationalizes his prescribing of this brain damaging shit by thinking "Oh, well if she kills herself or something, then I can’t say I didn’t try my best to help her." No doubt, SSRI’s and other meds have some positive effects. The *only* positive effect I’ve noticed is my lows aren’t quite as low as they used to be. That’s about it.  Other than that, I’m a brain damaged vegetable who can no longer carry on a conversation. THERE ARE NO THOUGHTS IN MY HEAD ANYMORE.  I struggle to write this post.  I’m sure it is longwinded as I’ve completely lost my sense of verbal precision. I hope someone who has had the same experience can post. I feel so alone. patricia

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – …from 3 years of Anafranil and Prozac.  Excuse this garbled message (probably a result of the damage, but I am so depressed right now because I know *exactly* what is wrong, but I am powerless to do anything about it. My brain is permanently fried from that med.  Here is the damage I notice: 1). Word retrieval – I can "picture" the word I want to say but I can’t find the word to use. Often, I have to substitute other, less efficient words to express what I’m trying to say. 2.) Thought retention – My mind just feels foggy and thoughts slip away very easily.  For example, when talking to myself I frequently have trouble recalling a sequence of thoughts from just a few seconds ago. It slips away so easily. My thoughts contain only about 2-3 words or "chunks" (at most). Beyond that I forget very easily.  Therefore, I lose the "word base" from which to form more complex thoughts. Everyone, please skip to the bottom if this post bores you. It is the absolute truth of my experience with SSRIs, and right now I’m feeling very frustrated at what is happening.. I’ve BEEN OFF MEDICATION FOR OVER A YEAR AND MY COGNITIVE ABILITIES HAVE NOT IMPROVED. Most of the damage (I feel) is subtle.. My doctor doesn’t believe there is damage. I have posted here once a long time ago and some people thought I was just an antimedication fanatic of the school of scientology.  Genimi from Vegas (don’t know if she still posts here) and "indiferent" were among those who believed it could/might happen. I believe I might have an oversensitivity in my brain that may have caused the damage to be GREATER than most people.. or maybe it is genetic. I do not know.  All I can tell you is my experience only, I have no scientific proof, all I’m saying is that I notice these effects LONG AFTER QUITTING, and I never HAD THESE PROBLEMS PRIOR TO THE MEDS. Most of the effects are subtle, so this post may actually sound halfway intelligent. But if you read more closely, the word choice is very limited.. I can’t even explain the damage I feel because I’ve lost the rich, complex and fluid linguistic capacity to express it. To have brain damage and KNOW it, but be unable to express it except in an adolescent fashion is a double-whammy to me.  I know this post is also disjointed and I use the word "I" too much.   That is also a sign of the damage, although no one on this board would know because I’ve never written here prior to the damage. I can’t even convince my docs that this damage has really occurred, because I no longer have the verbal eloquence to express myself in a reasoned, intelligent way. I just sound hysterical and histrionical… as though these are just my fears and nothing else.  BUT I TELL YOU, I FEEL THE DAMAGE AND I’M ANGRY BECAUSE I DON’T KNOW HOW TO WORD IT IN QUITE A WAY THAT EXPRESSES HOW IT FEELS TO STRUGGLE WITH PERMANENT BRAIN DAMAGE.  I FEEL AS IF I’VE BEEN IN A CAR ACCIDENT, the damage feels very diffuse, as if my brain is a sweater that has gone through the dryer too many times – frayed synapses and torn connections. I know this post also sounds very black and white, because I’ve lost my ability to employ my formally rich and subtle grasp of the English language to convey my point across… all I’m doing here is rambling and whining.  I think I’ve also lost some of my organizational ability (because my short-term memory is fried) so I’m sorry if this post is winding, convoluted and very horribly worded. Also (I feel) Anafranil and Prozac have also given me acquired ADD (Attention Deficit Disorder). Sorry this post is so disorganized.  I can no longer express myself and I have trouble remembering where I am in a thought and where my thoughts are leading (if these are in fact thoughts at all!). The most frightening damaged I’ve noticed from the meds is that I found an old diary of mine (written 5 years ago PRIOR to the meds) and I’m amazed that some of the words used were even part of my vocabulary.  I no longer have the retention to recall those words or their context of usage.  SORRY IF I’M USING CAPS HERE BECAUSE MY WORDS NO LONGER HAVE ANY IMPACT AND I AM UNABLE TO EXPRESS MYSELF EXCEPT LIKE A TEENAGER. This is not to scare people off meds. Some people will need them for life because their symptoms are so severe. I’m just talking from my own experience with one (Anafranil), and am expressing my frustration and sadness from the loss(es) I’ve experienced more than anything.. I also notice a permanent emotional flattening (or dulling) that I can’t explain either.  This is very scary to me also, because I’m only 35 and have many more years to live. I am almost certain that if this gets worse over time, and the damage is compounded with natural deterioration from aging, I will no longer want to be alive. I am a shell of my former self, and am struggling with these subtle cognitive effects THAT HAVE NOT LET UP EVEN AFTER OVER A YEAR BEING OFF THE ANAFRANIL AND PROZAC. So obviously something has happened, but I don’t know what.  Obviously my psychiatrist won’t tell me anything because THAT’S WHAT HE IS PAID TO DO – PRESCRIBE MEDICATION!  Most of his education (I’m sure) is funded by the drug companies.. and I’m sure he rationalizes his prescribing of this brain damaging shit by thinking "Oh, well if she kills herself or something, then I can’t say I didn’t try my best to help her." No doubt, SSRI’s and other meds have some positive effects. The *only* positive effect I’ve noticed is my lows aren’t quite as low as they used to be. That’s about it.  Other than that, I’m a brain damaged vegetable who can no longer carry on a conversation. THERE ARE NO THOUGHTS IN MY HEAD ANYMORE.  I struggle to write this post.  I’m sure it is longwinded as I’ve completely lost my sense of verbal precision. I hope someone who has had the same experience can post. I feel so alone. patricia Hi Patricia:    I suffer a lot of the *brain damage* descriptions you mention.  These are quite normal for persons suffering from depression.  I’ve taken every type of med there is and had ECTs.  I’m quite treatment resistant. Currently, I’m taking Parnate and Topamax.  Topamax does leave me *looking for that word* you describe.  

You are one of many people who have describe word-finding difficulties while on psychotropics. I’m not sure exactly what Topamax is or does, but I do notice the same effect while on the meds, and after quitting they seem to have left a lasting imprint. This present combination is becoming more and more ineffective and will abandon it shortly and they are damaging my liver. But, sure I walk around feeling brain damaged.  For 3 years now – this time. Three years the last time also.  I’m told by my pdoc, I’m such a lovely candidate for recurring episodes of major depression.  I hope each episode they come up with newer and new and safer meds, huh?    Having ECTs has lead to a lot of comments from people referring to the fact that *hey, I bet you are brain damaged*.  I’ve never taken alcohol or rec drugs, and I often wonder how many of those people making statements like that to me can claim the same.  ha-ha.

That’s interesting about alcohol – I often wonder whether the brain damage would have been less being an alcoholic for a few years. How do you feel the ECT affected you?    I have days where I talk and forget what I’m talking about it while I’m talking about it.  So I just don’t talk.  

Same here. At work people are joking around and I can’t even say a single sentence without stumbling. Often when I’m talking I find myself out on a limb- I forget where I’m headed with the thought. So yes, I’ve found being forgetful can reduce the confidence level quite a bit. I’m alone usually, so it does not matter.  

Me too. I often go somewhere and can not remember why I’m there.  Upsetting event, because this will cause the usual panic and anxiety attack.    I’ve now entered the *zone* where I just don’t care really.  I have lost who I was and do not know who I can be.  

Same here.  I have lost who I was too, and the hardest thing I’ve been dealing with is how to adjust to this new persona. I really feel for your apathy state.. I have the same feeling. Most of the time my mind is just a blank. I am constantly doubtful that I can contribute intelligently to a conversation with anyone in this group.  

You sound intelligent to me, although I have no idea what your previous level was. I know the feelings of doubt though, and the need to just withdraw and retreat from other people. I have about 0% the confidence level I had before the bouts with the SSRIs, and that includes a new feeling that I don’t come across warm or caring enough. It’s as if something in my brain that regulates emotion got eroded somehow. believe depression the disease, wears out your brain.

It does, depression too can damage the brain. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you are fortunate enough to find a compatible medication with your chemistry – viola – you become well and all the ugly symptoms you speak of will go unnoticed.  So will mine.    I’ve tried – Tricyclics (sp? – duh), Lithium, Prozac, Effexor, Paxil, Manerix, ECTs, Nardil (MAOI), Wellbutrin+Celexa, Parnate(MAOI)+Topamax(MS).    MAOIs do work for me, but dosage must be kept low due to liver problems. So why bother now?  I’m sure there are more we could chuck in there.    For me, a common side effect with everything (except MAOIs) was that I had to go to

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Response:

Thanks Bob.   Patricia – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Patricia.. I dont know how long ago you posted but people here do now take seriously the side and after effects of medications.. Many here suffer from such and are dealing with them.. Off the bat I have to say whatever you think.. your post is intelligent.. coherent and extremely articulate..not at all as you imagine it to be Gemini does still post here and I am sure will respond. there are many here who have had or are having similar experiences so you dont have to feel so alone .. It is usenet. so you could just ignore the occasional scienos under the beds post. Im sorry you are struggling with such problems and fears but you are by no means on your own. regards, Bob …from 3 years of Anafranil and Prozac.  Excuse this garbled message (probably a result of the damage, but I am so depressed right now because I know *exactly* what is wrong, but I am powerless to do anything about it. My brain is permanently fried from that med.  Here is the damage I notice: 1). Word retrieval – I can "picture" the word I want to say but I can’t find the word to use. Often, I have to substitute other, less efficient words to express what I’m trying to say. 2.) Thought retention – My mind just feels foggy and thoughts slip away very easily.  For example, when talking to myself I frequently have trouble recalling a sequence of thoughts from just a few seconds ago. It slips away so easily. My thoughts contain only about 2-3 words or "chunks" (at most). Beyond that I forget very easily.  Therefore, I lose the "word base" from which to form more complex thoughts. Everyone, please skip to the bottom if this post bores you. It is the absolute truth of my experience with SSRIs, and right now I’m feeling very frustrated at what is happening.. I’ve BEEN OFF MEDICATION FOR OVER A YEAR AND MY COGNITIVE ABILITIES HAVE NOT IMPROVED. Most of the damage (I feel) is subtle.. My doctor doesn’t believe there is damage. I have posted here once a long time ago and some people thought I was just an antimedication fanatic of the school of scientology.  Genimi from Vegas (don’t know if she still posts here) and "indiferent" were among those who believed it could/might happen. I believe I might have an oversensitivity in my brain that may have caused the damage to be GREATER than most people.. or maybe it is genetic. I do not know.  All I can tell you is my experience only, I have no scientific proof, all I’m saying is that I notice these effects LONG AFTER QUITTING, and I never HAD THESE PROBLEMS PRIOR TO THE MEDS. Most of the effects are subtle, so this post may actually sound halfway intelligent. But if you read more closely, the word choice is very limited.. I can’t even explain the damage I feel because I’ve lost the rich, complex and fluid linguistic capacity to express it. To have brain damage and KNOW it, but be unable to express it except in an adolescent fashion is a double-whammy to me.  I know this post is also disjointed and I use the word "I" too much.   That is also a sign of the damage, although no one on this board would know because I’ve never written here prior to the damage. I can’t even convince my docs that this damage has really occurred, because I no longer have the verbal eloquence to express myself in a reasoned, intelligent way. I just sound hysterical and histrionical… as though these are just my fears and nothing else.  BUT I TELL YOU, I FEEL THE DAMAGE AND I’M ANGRY BECAUSE I DON’T KNOW HOW TO WORD IT IN QUITE A WAY THAT EXPRESSES HOW IT FEELS TO STRUGGLE WITH PERMANENT BRAIN DAMAGE.  I FEEL AS IF I’VE BEEN IN A CAR ACCIDENT, the damage feels very diffuse, as if my brain is a sweater that has gone through the dryer too many times – frayed synapses and torn connections. I know this post also sounds very black and white, because I’ve lost my ability to employ my formally rich and subtle grasp of the English language to convey my point across… all I’m doing here is rambling and whining.  I think I’ve also lost some of my organizational ability (because my short-term memory is fried) so I’m sorry if this post is winding, convoluted and very horribly worded. Also (I feel) Anafranil and Prozac have also given me acquired ADD (Attention Deficit Disorder). Sorry this post is so disorganized.  I can no longer express myself and I have trouble remembering where I am in a thought and where my thoughts are leading (if these are in fact thoughts at all!). The most frightening damaged I’ve noticed from the meds is that I found an old diary of mine (written 5 years ago PRIOR to the meds) and I’m amazed that some of the words used were even part of my vocabulary.  I no longer have the retention to recall those words or their context of usage.  SORRY IF I’M USING CAPS HERE BECAUSE MY WORDS NO LONGER HAVE ANY IMPACT AND I AM UNABLE TO EXPRESS MYSELF EXCEPT LIKE A TEENAGER. This is not to scare people off meds. Some people will need them for life because their symptoms are so severe. I’m just talking from my own experience with one (Anafranil), and am expressing my frustration and sadness from the loss(es) I’ve experienced more than anything.. I also notice a permanent emotional flattening (or dulling) that I can’t explain either.  This is very scary to me also, because I’m only 35 and have many more years to live. I am almost certain that if this gets worse over time, and the damage is compounded with natural deterioration from aging, I will no longer want to be alive. I am a shell of my former self, and am struggling with these subtle cognitive effects THAT HAVE NOT LET UP EVEN AFTER OVER A YEAR BEING OFF THE ANAFRANIL AND PROZAC. So obviously something has happened, but I don’t know what.  Obviously my psychiatrist won’t tell me anything because THAT’S WHAT HE IS PAID TO DO – PRESCRIBE MEDICATION!  Most of his education (I’m sure) is funded by the drug companies.. and I’m sure he rationalizes his prescribing of this brain damaging shit by thinking "Oh, well if she kills herself or something, then I can’t say I didn’t try my best to help her." No doubt, SSRI’s and other meds have some positive effects. The *only* positive effect I’ve noticed is my lows aren’t quite as low as they used to be. That’s about it.  Other than that, I’m a brain damaged vegetable who can no longer carry on a conversation. THERE ARE NO THOUGHTS IN MY HEAD ANYMORE.  I struggle to write this post.  I’m sure it is longwinded as I’ve completely lost my sense of verbal precision. I hope someone who has had the same experience can post. I feel so alone. patricia

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Patricia…this is Gemini. So so sorry for what you been through and are going through and feeling.. I know what you are saying…it’s been nearly a year I been off all meds except thyroid meds. and its the same for me.. I  get called dummy girl, imbecile, demented, stupid, idiot..still on account of it. Tis not true. .Like you say, its subtle and effects ability to articulate,  access and retrieve right words, and such..not your thinking or cognition  itself. Exactly. Even though I have somewhat of a muted picture of what I really want to say, I can’t find the words to say it.   What part(s) of the brain govern this I wonder? I don’t know.  I liken this problem to one I have regards colors on my computer monitor.  It is capable of , and supposed to be able to use 256 colors, but I have always only been able to get 16 colors! I am never without words, like my monitor is never without color  BUT..not always the precise word, or right color…and with such a limited number offered up to chose from  when articulating, I find my description is always much harsher than words

Me too. I find I have that problem frequently, like not wanting to seem to "black and white" in my thinking or too simplistic. But my arsenal of vocabulary is so limited that I end up choosing words that communicate a very caricaturistic picture. But I notice that you express yourself in a very interesting way. You seem to break some of the "rules" on purpose and your posts seem richer and more flavorful than most. I would have used or like my screen colors  are harsher lacking access to the full array and color schemes my old monitor had. Sometimes while seeking to find the words to articulate a thought, an image will flash through my mind instead, revealing my meaning.    people then wind up being told they behave like altar boys, and ghouls, and snakes and sharks and other animals,  especially reptiles a lot.  LOL Their actually the lucky ones…as the ones I got no picture shortcut to articulate my meanings get these rambling replies…where  not finding the right words to make the point..have to settle for my suggesting what my point is..LOL

Sometimes images are very powerful, but I see what you mean. At this point however, my brain is at a juncture where even images don’t appear anymore.   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I researched it and there is now a NAME might apply  . P.A.N.E.S   for Persistant Adverse Neurological Effects Stopping SSRI’s I post any articles, I have found about it… Thanks for posting it.  Maybe if it is an actual website I can add my own story to it.  Some of the symptoms described on that site are similar to mine – disinhibition (?), mild irritability and a mild facial tic. Disinhibition,  where you  have no qualms about doing or saying in public what you normally be too inhibited to do or say, due to social conventions or your own personal code when normal. .

That’s what I thought. It sounds almost like a frontal lobotomy effect. I have the rest of what you wrote saved.,   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

You wrote somewhere that people will not admit that what you write doesn’t make sense. Well it makes sense to me..   Patricia – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Patricia…this is Gemini. So so sorry for what you been through and are going through and feeling.. I know what you are saying…it’s been nearly a year I been off all meds except thyroid meds. and its the same for me.. I  get called dummy girl, imbecile, demented, stupid, idiot..still on account of it. Tis not true. .Like you say, its subtle and effects ability to articulate,  access and retrieve right words, and such..not your thinking or cognition  itself. Exactly. Even though I have somewhat of a muted picture of what I really want to say, I can’t find the words to say it.   What part(s) of the brain govern this I wonder? I don’t know.  I liken this problem to one I have regards colors on my computer monitor.  It is capable of , and supposed to be able to use 256 colors, but I have always only been able to get 16 colors! If you relate to my analogy at all…my computer must be missing  the Drivers..that allow it to display 256 colors its capable of  rather than only the 16 it now does…. . same with my brain…the capacity is there…same with the knowledge,  all there…stored..I am sure. So I  must be missing drivers needed for complete search  or in the search engine itself sustained damage…so only so much of what I know is presented during retrieval.. forcing me to choose among much more limited range of words and info to express my ideas, thoughts and beliefs…. Regards this.kind of problem…I like what Scott Hamilton has to say…."only disability in life is a bad attitude"  . I am never without words, like my monitor is never without color  BUT..not always the precise word, or right color…and with such a limited number offered up to chose from  when articulating, I find my description is always much harsher than words I would have used or like my screen colors  are harsher lacking access to the full array and color schemes my old monitor had. Sometimes while seeking to find the words to articulate a thought, an image will flash through my mind instead, revealing my meaning.    people then wind up being told they behave like altar boys, and ghouls, and snakes and sharks and other animals,  especially reptiles a lot.  LOL Their actually the lucky ones…as the ones I got no picture shortcut to articulate my meanings get these rambling replies…where  not finding the right words to make the point..have to settle for my suggesting what my point is..LOL I researched it and there is now a NAME might apply  . P.A.N.E.S   for Persistant Adverse Neurological Effects Stopping SSRI’s I post any articles, I have found about it… Thanks for posting it.  Maybe if it is an actual website I can add my own story to it.  Some of the symptoms described on that site are similar to mine – disinhibition (?), mild irritability and a mild facial tic. Disinhibition,  where you  have no qualms about doing or saying in public what you normally be too inhibited to do or say, due to social conventions or your own personal code when normal. . so do a  goggle search using  P.A.N.E.S  will produce one or more of the articles on it for you.. I think I know how scared you must be. (I am) I’m very scared. I just don’t know how much damage it has done, and since I’m in my mid-thirties, will this effect multiply as I lose more cells due to aging? This whole thing is freaking me out. I been trying out and getting some relief, with dietary changes… then supplementing big time with a bunch of vitamins..etc.  I am now looking into idea a gluten intolerance or food intolerance of some kind made it so..I didnt metabolize meds like NORM,  and they got delivered to my brain in a toxic fashion..for me. What kind of vitamins do you take? Is it helping?  You mention gluten intolerance.. do you mean MSG and soy products. I read somewhere that they can also have an impact on the brain. Holistic healing…research on my part, is ongoing  big time…researching chelation,  YOGA supposed to help,  BREATHING improving circulation, anything….  However I just breached the tip of the iceberg in those areas… SSRIS are vascocontricters,  maybe prolonged use makes it remain constricted unless you do a lot of shit to open up airways.. why I am looking into ways of opening up breathing so more oxygen to brain.. might dissipate a little of this problem Only thing helped me in years…alternate remedies.alll  .one by one adding up to improvements.. Thanks for posting. I would be very interested in what kinds of remedies specifically you’re using. First I changed my diet, to a low carb, no sugar one. and that helped quite a bit. Then I took Evening Primrose, Omega 3, Calcium, Vitamin E…all recommended for PMS..plus this creme  Progestacare  made from Mexican Yam..containing Natural Progesteron,  and that helped some. Then I began walking, and that helped some. Then I added Vitamin B-100 complex and that helped two problems BIGTIME, the PMS and the depression. Drastic improvement within about 10 days of taking B-100. NO more horrific PMS since began taking B-100 about 4-5 months ago.  HUMONgous help to me. . Then I added vitamin A.with no noticable effect. I have Hashimotos Hypothyroidism, an autoimmune disorder incited disease and was reading how one can protect autoimmune system, with things like Magnesium, Selenium, Zinc, Tyrosine, and Vitamin C..so I added them and it was like night and day for me regards reaction to my environment… HELPED big time. Before taking them, my life was so awful.  I was so extraordinarily sensitive to my environment, what was going on outsdie me, had my full attention, because heightened sensitivity made me easily . annoyed and irritated and always always so easiluy inflamed .  Felt like I had no inner centeredness…so reactive to my environment never had the time or inner peace to be inside myself,  and no ability whatsoever to think through my reactions…just always reacting, with emotion, leading the way, not other way round.. Toward the end my body was reacting to everything outside as a threat, and increase my production of adrenalin…so constant state of fight response prevailed…..and in that state  blind by emotion, become irrational, stop thinking, stop articulating,  ADD big problem in that state.. Since I began taking the second batch too…I stopped reacting to most things…able to maintain my calm, not easily flamed and inflamed..feel much more centered,  in control, even keeled, not feeling  threatened by every little thing,  and with no more of that awful autoimmune response, blinding me with Feelings, cant think through…things way better regards this other problem. Doent improve the problme itself…but least its not compounded by awful stress response.makes it 5 times worse, regards articulation,  ADD, memory, word retrieval etc. Recently, it came to my attention alll my problems altogether are symptomatic of celiac disease…or gluten intolerance..which is an inability to metabloze some grains,   wheat, barley, oats..etc.. Upon that discovery, I changed my diet to gluten free….one…which I like better, cause except for breads, I never have like glutens much any way, but surre missed carb high foods like potatos..etc. Helped some too. We been having some discussion here of the role oxygen deprivation plays in depression.  Then i was feeling panicy about something, and getting paniced over feeling panicky when someone told me about the alt. nostril breathing..and it TOOK care of that problem.  Encouraged, I decided to see if some more experiements in this are  produce some improvement. Up to then I been walking, regular.  But, wanting to experiement some…I bought a bike..trying to, do something might cause rapid breathing… and being winded,  (here I having problems finding the words)  just doing something make my systme work harder and faster…you know where you get that exhilirated feeling from activity…and I find following more rigorous excersise like that… big improvement, though temporary with this problem we been discussing.  but immediately following rigorous exercise I have more clarity of thought,  more ability to articulate, less ADD…soon turns back to shit… but least I know how I can clear my mind up some…then MAKE important phone calls..or appointments for business matters. Lately I been busy, busy, busy, not much time for usenet, or on line activities…and I have notices it doesnt get so bad for me until I sit down at computer which has me  wondering if I am one of those people effected by the various emissions from computers..such I .NEED to house this thing..so NOT impaired by emission while using it!  LOL Do you happne to have to

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Response:

Question:

I have tappered down my Effexor dose (with Doctor supervision, over ~ 2 months, from 75 mg XR, once daily) to the lowest I can get, which is 37.5 mg, which I take in the morning.  Suprisinlgy with it’s short half life, I seem to feel no withdrawl effects by the end of the day. However, now my dose is zero, and I think, after 24 hours, I began to feel some withdrawl effects.  It’s best described (by others) as a brain zap (a bit like vertigo).  It seems not an uncommon effect.  I have s light headache, some fatigue, but certianly not incapacitating.  But it does freak me out and I am battling not to take a tablet to make it go away.  I went on AD when I had some health issues.  Freaky things happening to my body don’t help me very much. I have only been Effexor free for 48 h, it does seem to be getting a little worse.  Can anyone suggest how long I need to stick it out  ? One week ?  One month ?  It seems to vary person to person, but a guide would be good. My Doc has no advice on this. Appreciated, RDJ

Response:

You did a good taper-down, but effexor is notoriously hell to wash-out. 10 days to 2 weeks is the norm. This is a stupid suggestion, but I was helped by using Thera-flu (or the generic versions)…you know, those hot lemon-flavored antihistamine thingies? Jim M.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have tappered down my Effexor dose (with Doctor supervision, over ~ 2 months, from 75 mg XR, once daily) to the lowest I can get, which is 37.5 mg, which I take in the morning.  Suprisinlgy with it’s short half life, I seem to feel no withdrawl effects by the end of the day. However, now my dose is zero, and I think, after 24 hours, I began to feel some withdrawl effects.  It’s best described (by others) as a brain zap (a bit like vertigo).  It seems not an uncommon effect.  I have s light headache, some fatigue, but certianly not incapacitating.  But it does freak me out and I am battling not to take a tablet to make it go away.  I went on AD when I had some health issues.  Freaky things happening to my body don’t help me very much. I have only been Effexor free for 48 h, it does seem to be getting a little worse.  Can anyone suggest how long I need to stick it out  ? One week ?  One month ?  It seems to vary person to person, but a guide would be good. My Doc has no advice on this. Appreciated, RDJ

Response:

Thanks for the reply.  Unfortunately, I couldn’t hack the withdrawl and took a tab.  Bad thing is, I felt better within an hour.  I was hoping waht I was feeling was unrelated to withdrawl, maybe juat a vrius or something.  I am now taking 37.5 mg every second day.  By the end of the second day, I start to feel the withdrawl.  I intend to do this for a week or so to get to know what thw withdrawl feels like, so I am less freaked out by it. In Australia, 37.5 mg seems to be the lowest dose available, according to my Doc.  I am not confident of tablet splitting. The lemon things are around.   Do you think it’s the anti-histamnine that does the job ? You did a good taper-down, but effexor is notoriously hell to wash-out. 10 days to 2 weeks is the norm. This is a stupid suggestion, but I was helped by using Thera-flu (or the generic versions)…you know, those hot lemon-flavored antihistamine thingies? Jim M.

[snip]

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6 months or so ago my pdoc tried weaning me off effexor. From 150mg on down…when I hit 37.5 I started withrawal. Dizzy, headache, felt like I was walkin sidewys, brain zaps, nausea. I was put on Wellbuterin. I eventually got  totally off. AAAHHHH I called my pdoc crying just having a fit becase I vomited twice. The depression was awaful. I had forgotten how disgusting depression was. Waves of major depression. I did use some benedryl which did help some. So he put me back on Effexor. I am on lithium, lamictal, effexor, ativan and restoril. In my out of mind state I was crying, "with all the drugs I am on how can this happen??!" just crying a way. First he tried clinical terms….forget it, I barely knew where I was. So he put it to me like this, " You have a car, it has a body, wheels and an engine also a steering wheel. You can have all that but, if you do not have the  key you cannot start the car you aren’t going anywhere. Effexor is one of your keys. If you do not have it with your other meds you do not receive what your brain needs." Good luck with your effexor. When I was put back on I felt so much better. maridee

*

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Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve posted on here several times over the last few months.  I’m having a hard time feeling a ‘part off.’  No one is really reaching out to me. That’s not a criticism people, just a feeling.  I could use some support.  I’m tied of being the sarcastic know-it-all. Aware1, Arethusa, vegboy, Robert Mass, Kramer, Dreamcatcher, Jill, Mary Beth, Chirmia, to name a few.  I’ ve talked to you in the past.  I could use just a ‘Hello’ from you know. Thanks… i read all your posts.  i don’t know why.  your name, maybe. it’s a good, strong name.  i’ve never thought of you as a sarcastic know-it-all.  i don’t really know where you get that idea. anyway, hello, John.  i hope you have a lovely christmas.  :) denise

God, I sound like I’m whining, don’t I?  Thanks Denise.  I appreciate the compliment very much. — I can’t think of a single movie that couldn’t be improved by a lesbian sex scene.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve posted on here several times over the last few months.  I’m having a hard time feeling a ‘part off.’  No one is really reaching out to me. <Mary Beth reaches out her arm as far as she can That’s not a criticism people, just a feeling.  I could use some support.  I’m tied of being the sarcastic know-it-all. No-one knows it all. If they did, they would be boring. So, what’s up? How can I support you? Would you like to talk about something? Mary Beth

Hi Mary Beth.  I think I love you most of all.  You know what I’m really afraid of?  Remember the movie ‘Awakenings?’  I feel very good now, when I’m not taking handfuls of klonopin.  I’m afraid this is a ‘chemical window’ of happiness that will soon close, and I will go back to being the way I was.  I just refuse to live that way, especially since I know what it fees like now to be happy, confident, and not afraid of bridges, people, or just going outside. I won’t accept life as it was before, and that is scary.  I have been through a couple of med changes.  First effexor, which my pdoc and I ran up to 375 mg. a day.  That made me house bound and I had to hospitalized again.  The a got a new Dr and we did Zoloft, wellbutrin, buspar, inostital, kava kava.  I didn’t like the zoloft, so I am back on just 225 mg of effexor and 300 mg of wellbutrin.  I fell much better when I don’t take the klonopin, but my Dr insists I take 1 .5 in the morning and 1 .5 at night.  Fuck him, I just haven’t been taking it, until this weekend, when I binged on it.  I don’t even like the high.  It’s not like the valiums of hold. PS.  I have 1 year sober (again) on 12/14/99.  AD’s are my only hope, as I have had time before. Thanks for asking.  How about you? — I can’t think of a single movie that couldn’t be improved by a lesbian sex scene.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, I read you.  You have been seen and heard! I’ve posted on here several times over the last few months.  I’m having a hard time feeling a ‘part off.’  No one is really reaching out to me. That’s not a criticism people, just a feeling.  I could use some support.  I’m tied of being the sarcastic know-it-all. Aware1, Arethusa, vegboy, Robert Mass, Kramer, Dreamcatcher, Jill, Mary Beth, Chirmia, to name a few.  I’ ve talked to you in the past.  I could use just a ‘Hello’ from you know. Thanks… — I can’t think of a single movie that couldn’t be improved by a lesbian sex scene.

Thanks Amy.  Sometimes that’s all it takes. — I can’t think of a single movie that couldn’t be improved by a lesbian sex scene.

Response:

No problem, John. Good to see you. —                     _    bear         _.-’ )                (_ . ‘ __                  __^/` _)                .-’_                   (_.’    ’–.                    /_ /`-._/                   (__/ email: The_bearster_at_aol_dot_com

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Today, I fighting through that benzodiazeoine hangover, but I don’t want anymore.  I think I should throw them away.

Nooo, send them to me, I’ll pay the postage even!!! Thanks for asking.  How are you doing?

You’ve got a lot on your plate right now, John. Good for you for keeping your head above water. Other than a nasty persistent infection, I feel great, too. ) — Toto… I don’t think we’re in Kansas anymore.

Response:

Hi Mary Beth.  I think I love you most of all.

Wow, you just earned some serious brownie points there. You know what I’m really afraid of?  Remember the movie ‘Awakenings?’  I feel very good now, when I’m not taking handfuls of klonopin.  I’m afraid this is a ‘chemical window’ of happiness that will soon close, and I will go back to being the way I was.

I do understand. The movie "Awakenings" is my favorite movie as I have talked about in other movie threads here. I think it’s because I relate to it to a point. I have good times and times I just "shut down." As for your meds and your choice not to take the Klonopin. That’s YOUR right and if you feel it isn’t helping, don’t take it. Put your foot down and see what your doctor says. I’ve done that more than once myself. PS.  I have 1 year sober (again) on 12/14/99.  AD’s are my only hope, as I have had time before. Thanks for asking.  How about you?

Congratulations. I am fine, thanks for asking. Mary Beth p’ed and e’d

Response:

Would a hi instead of a hello do, John?  :o) What’s up? How was your day? How are you surviving the holidays? Aware1 — Toto… I don’t think we’re in Kansas anymore.

Yes, it would.  The last couple of week’s have been great.  I stopped taking the klonopin because I though it was working against the effexor/wellbutrin.  I kept them in the fridge and on Friday night, I just thought it would be fun to take a bunch this weekend.  I barely remember writing all these posts. Today, I fighting through that benzodiazeoine hangover, but I don’t want anymore.  I think I should throw them away. This time last year I was in a hotel room with a gun to my head.  On the 14th, I checked (well, I was baker acted) into a hospital and diagnosed with depression.  That gave me effexor.  I’m convinced it saved my like.  I have been feeling great.  So, why the self-destrucive binge on the klonopin? My parents are both in a nursing home in Indiana.  I had to put both of there there last November. I write computer software.  I am a genius.  Wily coyote, super genius. I’m good at work.  The rest of my life is a confusing jumble of emotional chaos. Thanks for asking.  How are you doing? — I can’t think of a single movie that couldn’t be improved by a lesbian sex scene.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello John.  I’m not sure why you feel left out or isolated, but I can understand those feelings. Hope you’re feeling better soon. best wishes, —                     _    bear         _.-’ )                (_ . ‘ __                  __^/` _)                .-’_                   (_.’    ’–.                    /_ /`-._/                   (__/ email: The_bearster_at_aol_dot_com That was nice.  Sort of like a form letter, but a nice effort. — ***** Perhaps you could post a description of what you expect to see in a "reaching out" post. —                     _    bear         _.-’ )                (_ . ‘ __                  __^/` _)                .-’_                   (_.’    ’–.                    /_ /`-._/                   (__/ email: The_bearster_at_aol_dot_com

Thanks Bear.  That was perfectly OK.  Sorry for being a smart-ass. Love your Bear… — I can’t think of a single movie that couldn’t be improved by a lesbian sex scene.

Response:

Hello, I read you.  You have been seen and heard! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve posted on here several times over the last few months.  I’m having a hard time feeling a ‘part off.’  No one is really reaching out to me. That’s not a criticism people, just a feeling.  I could use some support.  I’m tied of being the sarcastic know-it-all. Aware1, Arethusa, vegboy, Robert Mass, Kramer, Dreamcatcher, Jill, Mary Beth, Chirmia, to name a few.  I’ ve talked to you in the past.  I could use just a ‘Hello’ from you know. Thanks… — I can’t think of a single movie that couldn’t be improved by a lesbian sex scene.

Response:

I’ve posted on here several times over the last few months.  I’m having a hard time feeling a ‘part off.’  No one is really reaching out to me.

<Mary Beth reaches out her arm as far as she can That’s not a criticism people, just a feeling.  I could use some support.  I’m tied of being the sarcastic know-it-all.

No-one knows it all. If they did, they would be boring. So, what’s up? How can I support you? Would you like to talk about something? Mary Beth

Response:

Would a hi instead of a hello do, John?  :o) What’s up? How was your day? How are you surviving the holidays? Aware1 — Toto… I don’t think we’re in Kansas anymore.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello John.  I’m not sure why you feel left out or isolated, but I can understand those feelings. Hope you’re feeling better soon. best wishes, —                     _    bear         _.-’ )                (_ . ‘ __                  __^/` _)                .-’_                   (_.’    ’–.                    /_ /`-._/                   (__/ email: The_bearster_at_aol_dot_com That was nice.  Sort of like a form letter, but a nice effort. —

***** Perhaps you could post a description of what you expect to see in a "reaching out" post. —                     _    bear         _.-’ )                (_ . ‘ __                  __^/` _)                .-’_                   (_.’    ’–.                    /_ /`-._/                   (__/ email: The_bearster_at_aol_dot_com

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello John.  I’m not sure why you feel left out or isolated, but I can understand those feelings. Hope you’re feeling better soon. best wishes, —                     _    bear         _.-’ )                (_ . ‘ __                  __^/` _)                .-’_                   (_.’    ’–.                    /_ /`-._/                   (__/ email: The_bearster_at_aol_dot_com

That was nice.  Sort of like a form letter, but a nice effort. — I can’t think of a single movie that couldn’t be improved by a lesbian sex scene.

Response:

Hello John.  I’m not sure why you feel left out or isolated, but I can understand those feelings. Hope you’re feeling better soon. best wishes, —                     _    bear         _.-’ )                (_ . ‘ __                  __^/` _)                .-’_                   (_.’    ’–.                    /_ /`-._/                   (__/ email: The_bearster_at_aol_dot_com

Response:

I’ve posted on here several times over the last few months.  I’m having a hard time feeling a ‘part off.’  No one is really reaching out to me. That’s not a criticism people, just a feeling.  I could use some support.  I’m tied of being the sarcastic know-it-all. Aware1, Arethusa, vegboy, Robert Mass, Kramer, Dreamcatcher, Jill, Mary Beth, Chirmia, to name a few.  I’ ve talked to you in the past.  I could use just a ‘Hello’ from you know. Thanks… — I can’t think of a single movie that couldn’t be improved by a lesbian sex scene.

Response:

Question:

: Hi, I am new here and I am grateful that there are newsgroups available : to share these panic and anxiety experiences.   : I have been diagnosed with having a severe depression episode and also : am having panic and anxiety attacks.  Primarily while I am driving : to work.  My doctor gave me some medication called effexor to try and : it made me sick to my stomach and really spaced out.  Needless to say : I only took those once. When I went back and told him that they were awful : he gave me some zoloft.  I took one of those and I got a dry mouth, : and felt ’speedy’ and not really like myself. I also felt sick to : my stomach and frankly I didn’t like it at all.  Is this the way : antidepressants are?  Do you always have to feel like a glassy eyed : sick zombie?  I guess I am just wondering if this is normal? The : thought of taking medication in the first place is troubling to me, : let alone having myself turn in to some space cadet. Hi Kelly, I’m currently taking Luvox and desipramine for panic disorder and depression. I too was reluctant to take meds at first but now I’m so relieved to be on them. The Luvox made me very sleepy and nauseated, but that subsided within a couple of weeks. With desipramine I was definitely "spacey" (prob. due to lowered blood pressure) but that went away pretty quickly as well. Most side effects go away within a couple of weeks. I like to think of them as signs that the drugs are working–i.e. they’re starting to change my body chemistry. I’m probably completely off base but it works for me. Please try to ride out the side effects if you can–I have some ideas on how to make them better. You’ll feel a lot better, and knowing the SEs are temporary will give you incentive to stick with them. Going on and off meds is going to do you more harm than good, IMHO. Feel free to email anytime. Doris —                         Doris Ostendorf "Show me a sane man and I will cure him for you."                                                   C.G. Jung

Response:

You might want to look in Imipramine. It is pretty mild and works very good. You will notice dry mouth but hey that is why we have water. Thomas

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, I am new here and I am grateful that there are newsgroups available to share these panic and anxiety experiences.   I have been diagnosed with having a severe depression episode and also am having panic and anxiety attacks.  Primarily while I am driving to work.  My doctor gave me some medication called effexor to try and it made me sick to my stomach and really spaced out.  Needless to say I only took those once. When I went back and told him that they were awful he gave me some zoloft.  I took one of those and I got a dry mouth, and felt ’speedy’ and not really like myself. I also felt sick to my stomach and frankly I didn’t like it at all.  Is this the way antidepressants are?  Do you always have to feel like a glassy eyed sick zombie?  I guess I am just wondering if this is normal? The thought of taking medication in the first place is troubling to me, let alone having myself turn in to some space cadet. The good thing was I was definitely not depressed anymore.  I was too sick and stoned to feel anything!!!  thanks for listening — kel

Antidepressants work differently for different people. Unfortunately, doctors sometimes have to try different drugs on some people to find the right one. I was diagnosed as being severly depressed and an accompanying anxiety disorder to boot. I was given Prozac first which made me feel MUCH worse (I literally "crashed" and had horrible anxiety problems as well). After being admitted to the hospital, I was given Luvox (a close cousin of Prozac and was almost brand new on the market at the time) which seemed to do the trick after a few weeks. Mind you I was a virtual zombie since I was on way too high a dose! Doctors don’t seem to pay too much attention to psychiatric patients in the hospital. I was mostly just very, very tired from the Luvox and a bit of a dry mouth. The dry mouth went away pretty quickly but since I was on other meds as well, it may or may not have been the Luvox. My guess is that it was. After my hospital stay, another psychitrist (who actually listened!) saw that I was zombified by the dose and cut it down from 150mg to 100mg. It’s been just over a year and I’m now down to 50mg (so far so good!) and I take an Ativan (.5mg) once in a while when I need it. So it may just be a case of finding the right drug for you. It’s bizarre how greatly the side effects are from drug to drug even though they are all very similar (Prozac, Luvox, Zoloft, Effexor). The dose your doctor gave you might be a bit too high – but i guess you have to be on them for a while for them to consider that. I don’t know if this helps you at all other than the fact that many of us here have gone through/going through the same thing! Take heart – you’ll get better! And the crap wears off – really! Thomas

Response:

My doctor gave me some medication called effexor to try and it made me sick to my stomach and really spaced out.  Needless to say I only took those once….

Many side effects can be reduced by s*l*o*w*l*y increasing dosages to the desired level.  Discuss this with your doctor. I guess I am just wondering if this is normal?

Many people have trouble (real or imagined) with "normal" drug dosing. Mike Creswick Practical Software Solutions Member Association of Online Professionals Member HTML Writers’ Guild

Response:

l.  Is this the way   antidepressants are?  Do you always have to feel like a glassy eyed sick zombie?  I guess I am just wondering if this is normal?  

Hi Kelly, Usually, one starts with a very low (subtherapeutic) dose of these meds in order to minimize the side effects, and gradually increase it as your body gets more comfortable with the medicine.  Yes…it is kind of rough in the beginning, but usually these side effects go away after a week or two, and the dosage can be gently increased to a therapeutic level. I had the same problem with Zoloft, and after a few weeks I felt fine and am able to things I haven’t done in 8 years. Good luck! Andy

Response:

Hi, I am new here and I am grateful that there are newsgroups available to share these panic and anxiety experiences.   I have been diagnosed with having a severe depression episode and also am having panic and anxiety attacks.  Primarily while I am driving to work.  My doctor gave me some medication called effexor to try and it made me sick to my stomach and really spaced out.  Needless to say I only took those once. When I went back and told him that they were awful he gave me some zoloft.  I took one of those and I got a dry mouth, and felt ’speedy’ and not really like myself. I also felt sick to my stomach and frankly I didn’t like it at all.  Is this the way antidepressants are?  Do you always have to feel like a glassy eyed sick zombie?  I guess I am just wondering if this is normal? The thought of taking medication in the first place is troubling to me, let alone having myself turn in to some space cadet. The good thing was I was definitely not depressed anymore.  I was too sick and stoned to feel anything!!!   thanks for listening — kel

Response:

I have been diagnosed with having a severe depression episode and also am having panic and anxiety attacks.  Primarily while I am driving to work.  My doctor gave me some medication called effexor to try and it made me sick to my stomach and really spaced out.  Needless to say I only took those once. When I went back and told him that they were awful he gave me some zoloft.

Hmm, sounds to me like your doctor didnt explain things fully too you. Anti-depresssents are renown for making you feel really grotty for the first few days however the key is to bear with them and things should sort themselves out in a week or so. The amount of grottyness you experience depends on the family of anti-depressants your particular one belongs too. I am taking  Seroxat 20mg ( Peroxatine) which I admit I have never heard mentioned here. My current specialist is one of the most senior psycotherapists in London (he’s on the NHS too, for all you UK chaps out there.. a miricle!!) and he was telling me that this is now the leading drug used to combat anxiety and panic disorders.Apparently for all the hype Prozac is in fact as he put it " a pretty crude" drug and though good at treating depression is not so good at treating anxiety and panic disorder. Anyway he fully explained the side effects and though a bit like having  hangover because I expected them I coped ok and now I take them without any problems. Thankfully they seem to be having the desired effect. What was more imprsssive and actually helped me have faith in my therapist and the drugs was the fact that when I returned to see him after a couple of weeks he suggested how I should have felt day by day and indeed myu own personal notes mirrored this. It’s  3 months on now and I have to admit I’m in much better shape and closer to my old self after 2 years of hell. Try to stick with the drugs if you can. About a year after my first panic attack my own local doctor gave me Seroxat to take while I waited for my fisrt appointment with a behavioural therapist. Unfortuantely he didnt describe the side effects properly and of course  I became even more panicy when they started and stopped taking them. I wish I’d stayed with them …perhaps I could have saved myself another 12 months of grief. Good luck….things do get better…eventually..just keep on fighting Paul

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just started taking zoloft for my panic attacks, I have been on xanax for three months, I was just wondering if anyone has experienced the feeling of not really feeling like your in your right mind, almost like your peering through a glass at the rest of the world when you first started taking anti-depressant medications and does it get better with time? It almost feels like I’m in my mind but I’m really not,, Oh well sorry to take up your time on a stupid question, it just kinda worries me, any help or support would be greatly appreciated….. Thanks Paul Florida

Yes, I have experienced that.  Many of us call it the "Zombie" brain feeling. Clouded thinking is a beginning side-effect that many Zoloft users experience. It does go away for some.  You just have to stay on it for awhile to see if the sun gets brighter or dimmer.  If you don’t feel better, like say after 8 weeks on a therapeutic dose, talk to your doctor.  Matter of fact, it’s always a good plan to call your doctor or pharmacist for any side-effects. Mel

Response:

Not a stupid question at all.  I get that brain-fogged feeling from a lot of medications; indeed, it it also a symptom of anxiety in the first place.  If you only get it as a medication side effect, I would give it a couple of weeks to see if it goes away, as many side effects disappear or become more tolerable as one adjusts to the medication.  If on the other hand it is unbearable, perhaps you should try something different.  

Response:

I just started taking zoloft for my panic attacks, I have been on xanax for three months, I was just wondering if anyone has experienced the feeling of not really feeling like your in your right mind, almost like your peering through a glass at the rest of the world when you first started taking anti-depressant medications and does it get better with time? It almost feels like I’m in my mind but I’m really not,, Oh well sorry to take up your time on a stupid question, it just kinda worries me, any help or support would be greatly appreciated…..

Hi Paul, Do you feel like things around you are unreal, or that you are in a dream? It sounds to me like you *might* be having some derealization/depersonalization, which is frightening, but not dangerous. Derealization/depersonalization is the feeling that one is living in a dream, feeling that nothing is real, feeling detached from oneself. It is another symptom of anxiety and I have heard people that start anti-depressants complain of this also. I had this symptom toward the end of my last setback and it is quite frightening. Since being on Paxil I don`t have this symptom except when having a migraine. How much Zoloft are you taking and how many days have you been on Zoloft? This feeling is probably a side-effect of the Zoloft and more than likely will diminish over the next few weeks as your body gets accustomed to the Zoloft. Have you noticed if the Xanax helps this symptom? If you are concerned about this, don`t hesitate to call your doctor. I know that you are worried, but I can assure you that it is not dangerous, just very uncomfortable. It will get better. Take care. Jackie

Response:

I just started taking zoloft for my panic attacks, I have been on xanax for three months, I was just wondering if anyone has experienced the feeling of not really feeling like your in your right mind, almost like your peering through a glass at the rest of the world when you first started taking anti-depressant medications and does it get better with time? It almost feels like I’m in my mind but I’m really not,, Oh well sorry to take up your time on a stupid question, it just kinda worries me, any help or support would be greatly appreciated….. Thanks Paul Florida

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Question:

Snip  I don’t know what she thought about that but now she has put me on 50mg of zoloft but did give me the .75 a day of xanex too. I guess to make a long story short is what is this zoloft and will it help with the panic attacks?  I seem to be ok with the xanex.  I am so confused about all these meds.

Ara, Zoloft is an anti depressent in the same family as Prozac (SSRIs).  It is commonly used for anxiety/panic with a lot of success.  However, as with most anti depressents, you may feel worse before you feel better.  It’s a common practice to perscribe a little Xanax to help out while getting past the initial anti depressent adjustment period.  Also, the initial adjustment period can be as long as 8 weeks.  So, after 8 weeks, if the Zoloft isn’t helping, it probably won’t help and it’s time to try another med.  People commonly see an improvement prior to 8 weeks though.  Many people have been helped by Zoloft, but a minority are not (I can’t take SSRIs because I get rare side effects).  You should have got a sheet from your pharmacist listing the common side effects, you should look those over so you don’t freak if one of them happens. While Xanax is very effective, and people who criticise Xanax in this NG usually get a lot of flack, it has the potential for users to develop a "dependency" on it, meaning you can’t quit taking it after you’ve used it for a while without withdraw symptoms; it must be slowly weaned off.  So, in parts of the medical comunity, Xanax is not politically correct.  Also, people who have a history of substance abuse are more likely to abuse Xanax; but this is rare for most panic/anxiety people.  The irony is that any drug that crosses the blood brain barrier like Zoloft, Xanax, Prozac, most beta blockers, etc. can’t be just stopped, they must be weaned off.  So what makes Xanax so bad?  I’m not sure. Odds are good that Zoloft will help you.  If it doesn’t or you can’t take the side effects (often they stop after a while) there’s lots of other meds to try. BTW, .75 mg of Xanax / day is a low dose, you may find yourself needing more later if the Zoloft does not kick in soon enough, be sure to see your Dr. if this happens. Your Dr. seems to be following a common strategy for anxiety/panic that’s helpful for many people.  You’ll just have to wait and see if it works for you. God bless,   Mark Before you buy.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi all, New here.  Don’t want to start the newbie stuff.  Just had a couple of questions if you all could help out.  To give a quick recap of what has been going on, I ended up in the ER last month with chest pains (nothing wrong with the heart)and tingly sensations in my neck, head and eyes. The ER doc put me on .5 mg of xanex 4 times a day. Said that it was probably a panic attack. Then he told me to see my regular doc in a couple of days and I did and she put me on .25mg 2 to 3 times a day. She basically said just take the two.  I didn’t seem enough so I took 3 a day and that seemed to be better.  Anyway, went today to get a refill. I told her that the 2 a day wasn’t enough and that I was taking 3.  I told her that the tingly sensations would start coming back if I only took the 2.  I also told her that the more stressed I got the worse the tingly sensations.  I don’t know what she thought about that but now she has put me on 50mg of zoloft but did give me the .75 a day of xanex too. I guess to make a long story short is what is this zoloft and will it help with the panic attacks?  I seem to be ok with the xanex.  I am so confused about all these meds. Thanks for all the help, Ara

Hi Ara & welcome to ASAP! Many doctors have trouble prescribing Xanax and other benzodiazepines because they mistakenly think they are *addictive*. This is not the case. Benzos, like almost all psychotropic and many non-psychotropic meds, will cause some *dependance* which means that you’d better not stop them suddenly but taper off slowly to avoid withdrawal symptoms. Xanax can be taken in two ways: *as needed* (when you feel a PA coming on) or as a maintenance med in a regular daily dose. Xanax is a fast- but short acting med, it works for 5 hours average which means that appr. 5 hours after having taking one your body will warn you that it’s time for another dose. To prescribe Xanax in whatever dose to be taken twice a day is not very sensible becausae 24 hours divided by 5 = (more than) 4 times. The average therapeutic dose of Xanax is anywhere between 2-6 mgs. Its most important side effect is *sedation* which will cease or at least diminish a lot after your body has become accustomed to it. Obviously your doctor feels not comfortable treating you with Xanax alone and also maybe is undersubscribing so she gave you Zoloft which is an antidepressant from the SSRI-group which are often used for PD and are first choice meds just like the benzos are. AD’s will worsen your anxiety in the beginning and sometimes throw in some weird initial side effects of their own which is a reason to *start low – go slow*. Starting someone on 50 mgs of Zoloft is asking for trouble. Best is 12,5 mgs for a week and then slowly raise it in 12,5 mgs increments a week until therapeutic dose is reached. In itself the choice of Zoloft isn’t a bad one and the combo of an SSRI and a benzo is a good one (Xanax will also help avoiding or minimizing initial Zoloft side effects). Philip

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Hi all, New here.  Don’t want to start the newbie stuff.  Just had a couple of questions if you all could help out.  To give a quick recap of what has been going on, I ended up in the ER last month with chest pains (nothing wrong with the heart)and tingly sensations in my neck, head and eyes. The ER doc put me on .5 mg of xanex 4 times a day. Said that it was probably a panic attack. Then he told me to see my regular doc in a couple of days and I did and she put me on .25mg 2 to 3 times a day. She basically said just take the two.  I didn’t seem enough so I took 3 a day and that seemed to be better.  Anyway, went today to get a refill. I told her that the 2 a day wasn’t enough and that I was taking 3.  I told her that the tingly sensations would start coming back if I only took the 2.  I also told her that the more stressed I got the worse the tingly sensations.  I don’t know what she thought about that but now she has put me on 50mg of zoloft but did give me the .75 a day of xanex too. I guess to make a long story short is what is this zoloft and will it help with the panic attacks?  I seem to be ok with the xanex.  I am so confused about all these meds. Thanks for all the help, Ara Before you buy.

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Question:

The FDA has issued a new warning on the nonsedating antihistamine Hismanal. See FDA Talk Paper: "T98-5                       Ivy Fleischer Kupec:  301-827-6242 Feb. 9, 1998                Broadcast Media:      301-827-3434                             Consumer Inquiries:   800-532-4440  IMPORTANT NEW SAFETY INFORMATION ABOUT HISMANAL FDA today is warning consumers and health care providers about new safety information regarding the prescription antihistamine Hismanal (astemizole). This warning is being issued in conjunction with the addition of more information in the product label about cardiovascular adverse events, new potentially serious drug interactions and rare reports of anaphylaxis, a potentially life-threatening reaction. The following can be used to answer questions: Hismanal is associated with risks of death due to irregular heart rhythms when taken with certain other drugs and when used at higher than the recommended labeled dose. The new labeling provides information about a specific warning against simultaneously using Hismanal with other types of drugs such as the hypertension drug, Posicor (mibefradil dihydrochloride), and the antibiotics, Biaxin (clarithromycin) and TAO (troleandomycin). The new labeling also provides additional precautions against using Hismanal with a number of other drugs. These include: HIV protease inhibitors such as Crixivan (indinavir), Norvir (ritonavir), Invirase (saquinavir) and Viracept (elfinavir); serotonin reuptake inhibitors such as Prozac (fluoxetine), Luvox (fluvoxamine), Zoloft (sertraline), Serzone (nefazodone) and Paxil (paroxetine); and the antiasthma medication Zyflo (zileuton). Additionally, the label now recommends that Hismanal should not be taken with grapefruit juice. These recommendations are based on the potential of these drugs and grapefruit juice to interfere with the body’s handling and metabolism of Hismanal. The new labeling also emphasizes that patients with liver disorders should not take Hismanal. The new labeling is designed to give health care providers and consumers who use Hismanal the latest available information about these risks. In the event of Hismanal-related adverse events, health care providers are urged to contact the manufacturer, Janssen Pharmaceuticals One-to-One Customer Action Center at 1-800-JANSSEN (526-7736) or FDA MedWatch at (phone) 1-800-FDA-1088, (fax) 1-800-FDA-1078 or (mail) FDA, HF-2, 5600 Fishers Lane, Rockville, MD 20857. #### "

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Thanks for the Warning, I already new about the Grapefruit juice. I just started Hismanal a few months ago.  Doesn’t do much for the itchy eyes, but it dries the heck out of my nose and mouth. Thank god my air-purifier is plugged in! _____ Environmental Consultant:  Management of Indoor Quality air.  MY Primary Management is on setting up Home-Businesses for people with little or no money                                              1-800-481-3181  

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You may wish to refer to an article by Dr. Paul Wenders group at U. Utah:: Reimarr, F et al ,An open trial of L-Tyrosine in the Treatment of Attention Deficit Disorder, Residual Type. AMERICAN JOURNAL OF PSYCHIATRY, 144:8 August 1987, pp 1071-3 This study used doses of 50-150mg/kg in adults with ADD.  Eight of twelve patients had a "marked to moderate" response after 2 weeks, but all developed tolerance at 6 weeks.   In re the comments about tyrosine not effecting CNS levels of dopamine and norepinephrine (as compared to tryptophane — serotonin) I doubt that its that simple.   Why would tyrosine/phenylanaine supplementation have a positive effec in some cases of depression? You may wish to look up some writings by Dr. Richard Wurtman that will correlate amino acid loading with increase in central neurotransmitters. Are you also taking supplements of B vitamine (B6) that will aid the production of dopamine? In closing, you may find as I have that tyrosine used concurrently with a stimulant will have even better results than either alone.  Good luck Bob

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You may wish to refer to an article by Dr. Paul Wenders group at U. Utah:: Reimarr, F et al ,An open trial of L-Tyrosine in the Treatment of Attention Deficit Disorder, Residual Type. AMERICAN JOURNAL OF PSYCHIATRY, 144:8 August 1987, pp 1071-3 This study used doses of 50-150mg/kg in adults with ADD.  Eight of twelve patients had a "marked to moderate" response after 2 weeks, but all developed tolerance at 6 weeks.   In re the comments about tyrosine not effecting CNS levels of dopamine and norepinephrine (as compared to tryptophane — serotonin) I doubt that its that simple.   Why would tyrosine/phenylanaine supplementation have a positive effec in some cases of depression? You may wish to look up some writings by Dr. Richard Wurtman that will correlate amino acid loading with increase in central neurotransmitters.

Just to let you know where I’m coming from, for what it’s worth, here’s a quote from "The Molecular Foundations of Psychiatry" by S.E.Hyman & E.J. Nestler, pg 71:         Tyrosine hydroxylase is the rate limiting enzyme of catecholamine         [i.e. dopamine and norepinephrine] synthesis…Because tyrosine         hydroxylase exists at relatively low levels, and *under normal         conditions* is already supersaturated by the amount of tyrosine         found in the brain, it is very difficult to influence brain         catecholamine synthesis through variations in dietary tyrosine. Notice the qualification "under normal conditions".  There could be exceptions, for example, in persons with abnormal brain chemistry. Stanley – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Are you also taking supplements of B vitamine (B6) that will aid the production of dopamine? In closing, you may find as I have that tyrosine used concurrently with a stimulant will have even better results than either alone.  Good luck Bob

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Which is the reason that L-Dopa is used to treat Parkinson’s disease rather than tyrosine.  I beleive that too many people expect too great of results from substances such as amino acids  Similarly too many in the medical/scientific community are just as fast to write off any real effect.   To simply state that tyrosine hydroxylase is the rate limiting factor may be a simplification.  (Does this consider variations depending on time of day?)   The Wender writing stated that a period of two weeks passed before an effect was noticed, which he compared to the delayed response found in most antidepressant drugs.  (Similarly he found no usefulness beyond 6 weeks, tolerance?) To my understanding, tricyclic antidepressants cause an immediate blockage of reuptake and consequential increase in synaptic transmitter levels but clinical response is delayed 2-6 weeks.  Why?  This suggests actions beyond the immediate cast of players, be it amino acids, enzymes, neurotransmitters and/or drugs, on an IMMEDIATE basis. I hope to respond to you giving a few other citations later. I invite your comments on a relate issue, ie, the differing actions of d-amphetamine and methylphenidate.  As a person with ADD, I had extreme problems (anxiety, dysphoria) with larger doses of Ritalin(40-60mg/dose), which my doctor simply excused to my greater awareness to the world.  I have no such problems with ROUGHLY equivalent doses of Dexedrine(15mg).  I have read that these two drugs act on different dopamine pools in the brain, and that methylphenidate actually inhibits the actions of amphetamine.(Research I beleive done by a researcher at Duke, McEwen or similar name reported in TIPS mid 80s)  Similarly methylphenidate seems to provoke epileptic activity, where amphetamine tends to inhibit it (Dexedrine is marketed as an anticonvulsant in Canada, I doubt this is only for its anti-drowsiness effects re phenobarbital) As a child I experienced nocturnal epilepsy but I have read nothing clinically about the selection of antiADD drugs in epileptics for example.  What is the current thinking (theoretically as well as clinically) regarding this diffenence between the actions of thes amphetamine like drugs and the methylphenidate like drugs?. Regards Bob

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Tyrosine is a great way to prevent depletion of neurotransmitters as a result of psychostimulant therapy. Phenylalanine competes with tryptophan for entry to the brain and should not even be considered – it made me angry as all hell!! All by itself its probably nowhere near as effective, because the body is good at keeping levels where it thinks they should be. L-Dopa effectively bypasses this mechanism – anyone got any data on it? L-Dopa can [according to a friend] be made by feeding potatoes lots of tyrosine, then eating them [he didnt say whether they were cooked or not] — Its always the same / Im the only one who’s always left to blame / Take what you can take / Hurt is your only idea of a game / To break away / I dont have that within me / And I’m not afraid / So I bite the hand that feeds me… / When all you do is break me / And put me in a cage     Front 242, Animal.

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Someone posted a message recently about Tyrosine conflicting with antidepressants. Anyone have any details?

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: I really hate these kinds of replies. : Why do you bother doing this without getting the facts?  Gosh.. You’ve : succeeded in making me angry. : I have probably been diagnosed with ADD more times than you have, Ed. : about 3 or 4.  from neurologists and psychiatrists.  I have tried every : drug known from stimulants to wellbutrin. : lay off, and find out the facts before you waste your time talking without : knowing. : If you don know, ASK.  don’t suggest things that have already been done IN : EXCESS! : Now, if someone could INTELLECTUALLY respond to my message,  I would : appreciate it.   : I appologize to all reading this, it just makes me upset to have someone : respond to me like this. Jason, you _asked_ for opinions; and that’s what you got.  Don’t complain that somebody offered you the best advice that anybody could in response to your description of experimenting with self-treatment for ADD "symptoms". I’ve tried Ritalin, switched to Dexedrine, went back to Ritalin, added Effexor along with Ritalin, and still some of my symptoms persist. However, all through this process (a little over 2 years now) I’ve been seeing a therapist (psychologist) on a regular basis, as well at the less frequent appointments with neurologist, neuropsychologist, and psychiatrist. Oh, can’t forget my general practicioner MD, either. For many people, drugs are not enough–some type of therapy or counselling can help them take control over their life.  For some of us it’s the first time ever we’ve felt even close to being in the driver’s seat, and it can be a frightening/frustrating experience–not knowing what we’re supposed to do first, or do next, or do after that, or… Final note: regarding self-prescribed vitamin, mineral, amino acid, "natural" supplements, a biochemical/medical researcher (PhD+) advised me, "I recommend against it; when you start messing with chemical balance in your brain you can really screw things up."   _I’d_ recommend taking Ed’s advice: seek professional help and stick with it. (I apologize if the tone of this post started getting hot, but what you’re  doing _is_ playing with fire.  Be really careful!)       "Well, heck. It sounded like a _really_good_idea_, at the time."

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I really hate these kinds of replies. Why do you bother doing this without getting the facts?  Gosh.. You’ve succeeded in making me angry. I have probably been diagnosed with ADD more times than you have, Ed. about 3 or 4.  from neurologists and psychiatrists.  I have tried every drug known from stimulants to wellbutrin. lay off, and find out the facts before you waste your time talking without knowing. If you don know, ASK.  don’t suggest things that have already been done IN EXCESS! Now, if someone could INTELLECTUALLY respond to my message,  I would appreciate it.   I appologize to all reading this, it just makes me upset to have someone respond to me like this. Jason —- The fear of the unknown is a response to the excesses of the imagination.

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