Question:

Dear Coral,     Have you tried to set an alarm for when to take your meds.  I have my inhalers by my toothbrush that way I can take the flovent BEFORE I brush my teeth. When I had to take the inhaled steroid in the middle of the day I set my watch alarm to remind me.  I think they even make little med reminder clocks that you can set to remind you.  Hope this helps  Pam.

Response:

I don’t know if this applies to you, Coral, but I work in the computer industry, and I’m at a computer 8-10 hours a day. I’ve set reminders in Outlook that pop up so that I don’t forget to take my meds. Whatever you try, good luck! — Grant Thornley   "Do you like my mask? It brings thing back from the dead."     Giles, Season 3

Response:

Thanks for replying guys: Chris, yes, Im going to check that pill thing out in a while after I leave the computer, Pam, thats a good idea,and yes I ve tried an alarm but I share the alarm with my hubby, who needs it to wake him up for work, so thats no good. Grant, thats a good idea, didnt think about that. (in a rush) thanks Coral

Response:

I realize that I have to take my maintenance meds if I want to live, but my problem is that I constantly loose track of the time that I have to take them and end up skipping a night or two. Now, Ive been on Flovent and Serevent night and day for two months now and begining to feel like a crack head constantly inhaling on my areochamber.lol but seriously, sometimes I cant keep track of the time and I end up forgetting to take em. And after a while it feels like I going through some type of withdrawal.

At almost any drug store, you can get a pill box with a built-in alarm.  In almost any department store, you can get a watch with a built-in alarm.  Either will cost you less than $50, and be well-worth the expense if it helps you remember your meds. Chris Owens

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I realize that I have to take my maintenance meds if I want to live, but my problem is that I constantly loose track of the time that I have to take them and end up skipping a night or two. Now, Ive been on Flovent and Serevent night and day for two months now and begining to feel like a crack head constantly inhaling on my areochamber.lol but seriously, sometimes I cant keep track of the time and I end up forgetting to take em. And after a while it feels like I going through some type of withdrawal. Coral

Response:

Question:

Dear Joan, I am a Candida biologist. Candida albicans, a dimorphic fungus with yeast and hyphal (like other fungi) phases, is the major causative agent of thrush, followed by some other Candida species. WHile all organisms grow on sugars, Candida albicans thrives well on serum (which does have glucose in it of course as well) and on human tissues. Indeed if you stop cells from making the hyphal form, they are no longer infective. Serum in the absence of added sugars, promotes this invasive hyphal form. I think adding more sugar may stimulate the yeast form a bit-( hmm I never tried that experiment – adding more glucose to the serum plates). Candida is not like bakers yeast, and bakers yeast does not encourage the growth of Candida albicans. You can also consume sugar in normal quantities (if you’re not diaetic of course). The books that deal with candida cleansing diets are not supported by scientific studies. The scientific Candida community has analysed the theories and treatments proposed in these books (diets and the claims they make) They are unfounded. I have looked the studies up on medline myself- and I see that the authors of several books on the subject have made huge assumptions based on very very little data, and actually have thwarted the truth. A complete if not outdated book on Candida infections which even reviews the book "the yeast connection" is "Candida and Candidosis: A review and bibliography" (1989-I think) by FC Odds who was at Leeds in the UK for many years and is now at Jaansen (ie also own J&J) in belgium. He refuses to write a new edition. But his book  remains the most complete and unbiased medical book on the subject. It is out of print. I do have a photocopy of it, or libraries should be able to get you a copy. Medical Schools should have a copy or access to one. Every single study on Candida up to the pub. date is covered in that book- very factual. I have looked over all of the alternative suggestions proposed on this thread. None of them have proven to my knowledge. Definitely do not use any mouthwashs or treatments that kill the bacteria in you mouth. The bacteria help you to fight off thrush.  Gingivitiis is bacterial in origin- do not use washes that treat this. I even asked my pharmacist to confirm this when I had recurrent thrush. Lots of healthy garlic has been shown to kill candida and bacteria- but yikes (yes the scientific community acknowkedges this)- but actualy the studies are in vitro. No proof that consuming garlic helps -to my knowledge. Unfortunately, steroid inhalers I believe affect the same immune cells in the mouth that keep Candida at bay.  I had to switch from flovent (a stronger steroid) to azmacort (which does not work as well for me). Fungal infections are stubborn. 1) you want to treat the underlying cause if possible causes can include: being on antibiotics, diabetes immune disorders (i.e.AIDS) treatment with immunosuppressive agents (ie. us asthmatics) Chemotherapy dentures 2) You need to stick to the antifungal treatment until the thrush clears up, and also solve the underlying cause or it will just recur.  Why? The antifungals being used, do not kill the candida too well, but do stop them from growing (they can’t make their cell membranes). There may be some nongrowing cells that stick around and thus the infection can recur. You need to make sure those immune cells in the mouth are ok. So rinsing with water and using a spacer are critical with the steroid inhalers. Good Luck! Chilla ps. you could also have a drug resisitant strain of candida in your mouth . You could try other classes of antifungals. Nystatin vs. the azoles (like clortrimazole). These belong to different chemical classes

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I didn’t intend to sound critical.  Just wanted to add to the pool of information.   SJ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Cleaning your inhalation paraphenalia is important but not enough, supplimenting that with scrupulous oral hygiene is at least as or more important.  Ask your doctor to prescribe "Chlorhexidine Gluconate" (oral rinse), generally prescribed by dentists for treating gingivititus and other infectious oral abnormalities, use both before and after inhaling meds.   Be aware, though, of the following information on the chlorhexidine box: "Chlorhexidine Gluconate Oral Rinse may cause some tooth discoloration, or increases in tarter (calculus) formation, particularly in areas where stain and tartar usually form.  It is important to see your dentist for removal of any stain or tartar at least every six months, or more frequently if your dentist advises." "Both stain and tartar can be removed by your dentist or hygientist. Chlorhexidine gluconate may cause permanent discoloration of some front-tooth fillings." I noticed definite tooth staining and filling discoloration after using it once a day for 2 weeks. SR That’s why I suggested frequent brushing and flossing, particularly with the Sensonic.  I’ve been adhereing to the aformentioned regimen for more than 3 years now, with no indication of out of the ordinary staining… and of course Clorhexidine gluconate, like any other prescription drug, would be used under the supervison of a physician, with all the same admonishments about reporting back immediately when any adverse conditions begin to occur.  Clorohexidine gluconate works for me, besides, it’s only a suggestion.   Sheldon On a recent Night Court rerun, Judge Harry Stone had a wonderful line: "I try to keep an open mind, but not so open that my brains fall out."

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joan, i don’t know of anything else that you can take that would help prevent thrush. I do have a lot of patients on prednisone and steroid inhalers, but i have not seen as much problem with thrush as it is in your case. Just make sure that you don’t have diabetes or steroid induced hyperglycemia (elevated blood sugars). yatin j patel md http://md4lungs.com – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is there any remedy for thrush other than prescriptions like Mycelex or Nystatin? Does acidophilus really act as a preventative? I use a spacer with my inhaled Flovent and I rinse faithfully but keep getting thrush over and over again. Somebody must be buying a lot of acidophilus for some reason as even the pharmacies in my area are out of it. I am on Prednisone now, and I know it’s only a matter of days before I will have thrush once again. Can anybody offer any suggestions? If not, I guess it’s back to the doctor for another prescription drug. Joan

– Yatin J Patel MD http://md4lungs.com If you have asthma, this is your home. Join Dr. Patel every wednesday 7 PM Indiana Time for online chats. Before you buy.

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* also try and keep your sugar and yeast intake as low as possible.. these help grow the yeast.

I do not think that this is accurate. It’s a terrible responsibility – but somebody has to be the Americans.

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I had thrush and my doctor told me that it was probably a result of the inhaled steroids rather than oral (I was on flovent too.)  What you need to do is rinse your mouth and throat after using your inhaler so the steroid is not sticking to the membranes in your mouth. Hope this helps. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is there any remedy for thrush other than prescriptions like Mycelex or Nystatin? Does acidophilus really act as a preventative? I use a spacer with my inhaled Flovent and I rinse faithfully but keep getting thrush over and over again. Somebody must be buying a lot of acidophilus for some reason as even the pharmacies in my area are out of it. I am on Prednisone now, and I know it’s only a matter of days before I will have thrush once again. Can anybody offer any suggestions? If not, I guess it’s back to the doctor for another prescription drug. Joan

Response:

i work in a health food store, and have tried a few natural remidies…(with all the other prescriptions i’m on, i don’t want another!) here are a few suggestions that i have found to work.. *Acidophilus.. i prefer PB8 but any with 10 billion or more active cultures is good *gargling with tea tree oil mouthwash or vinegar and water.. i actually do both sometimes, after i use my inhalers and after i brush my teeth. * also try and keep your sugar and yeast intake as low as possible.. these help grow the yeast.  these are more preventitive than a cure… but i have found that it does help, i have very infrequent problems now instead of every month or so… good luck!

Response:

Cleaning your inhalation paraphenalia is important but not enough, supplimenting that with scrupulous oral hygiene is at least as or more important.  Ask your doctor to prescribe "Chlorhexidine Gluconate" (oral rinse), generally prescribed by dentists for treating gingivititus and other infectious oral abnormalities, use both before and after inhaling meds.  

Be aware, though, of the following information on the chlorhexidine box: "Chlorhexidine Gluconate Oral Rinse may cause some tooth discoloration, or increases in tarter (calculus) formation, particularly in areas where stain and tartar usually form.  It is important to see your dentist for removal of any stain or tartar at least every six months, or more frequently if your dentist advises." "Both stain and tartar can be removed by your dentist or hygientist. Chlorhexidine gluconate may cause permanent discoloration of some front-tooth fillings." I noticed definite tooth staining and filling discoloration after using it once a day for 2 weeks. SR

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Cleaning your inhalation paraphenalia is important but not enough, supplimenting that with scrupulous oral hygiene is at least as or more important.  Ask your doctor to prescribe "Chlorhexidine Gluconate" (oral rinse), generally prescribed by dentists for treating gingivititus and other infectious oral abnormalities, use both before and after inhaling meds.   Be aware, though, of the following information on the chlorhexidine box: "Chlorhexidine Gluconate Oral Rinse may cause some tooth discoloration, or increases in tarter (calculus) formation, particularly in areas where stain and tartar usually form.  It is important to see your dentist for removal of any stain or tartar at least every six months, or more frequently if your dentist advises." "Both stain and tartar can be removed by your dentist or hygientist. Chlorhexidine gluconate may cause permanent discoloration of some front-tooth fillings." I noticed definite tooth staining and filling discoloration after using it once a day for 2 weeks. SR

That’s why I suggested frequent brushing and flossing, particularly with the Sensonic.  I’ve been adhereing to the aformentioned regimen for more than 3 years now, with no indication of out of the ordinary staining… and of course Clorhexidine gluconate, like any other prescription drug, would be used under the supervison of a physician, with all the same admonishments about reporting back immediately when any adverse conditions begin to occur.  Clorohexidine gluconate works for me, besides, it’s only a suggestion.   Sheldon On a recent Night Court rerun, Judge Harry Stone had a wonderful line: "I try to keep an open mind, but not so open that my brains fall out."

Response:

I’m just guessing here but would yogurt (With live cultures) help?  How about a vinegar and water mouthwash?  Just trying to remember what the natural remedies for yeast problems are. While they don’t usually work well as a cure, maybe as a preventive? Jo An Firey * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

Is there any remedy for thrush other than prescriptions like Mycelex or Nystatin? Does acidophilus really act as a preventative? I use a spacer with my inhaled Flovent and I rinse faithfully but keep getting thrush over and over again. Somebody must be buying a lot of acidophilus for some reason as even the pharmacies in my area are out of it. I am on Prednisone now, and I know it’s only a matter of days before I will have thrush once again. Can anybody offer any suggestions? If not, I guess it’s back to the doctor for another prescription drug.

Cleaning your inhalation paraphenalia is important but not enough, supplimenting that with scrupulous oral hygiene is at least as or more important.  Ask your doctor to prescribe "Chlorhexidine Gluconate" (oral rinse), generally prescribed by dentists for treating gingivititus and other infectious oral abnormalities, use both before and after inhaling meds.  Also, Colgate Palmolive’s "Peroxyl" (nonprescription) is a very good oral antiseptic, with the benefit of being pleasant-tasting, especially effective when used right before bedtime, after you’re brushed and flossed.  You might also want to seriously consider treating yourself to Teledyne Water Pik’s "SENSONIC" tooth brush, an excellent product, leagues ahead of any ordinary toothbrush, even the other mundane electric toothbrushes. I used to really suffer with constant bouts of thrush but no more after adopting the above regimen, a much better alternative to guzzling liter after liter of Nystatin, BLECH! Sheldon On a recent Night Court rerun, Judge Harry Stone had a wonderful line: "I try to keep an open mind, but not so open that my brains fall out."

Response:

Is there any remedy for thrush other than prescriptions like Mycelex or Nystatin? Does acidophilus really act as a preventative? I use a spacer with my inhaled Flovent and I rinse faithfully but keep getting thrush over and over again. Somebody must be buying a lot of acidophilus for some reason as even the pharmacies in my area are out of it. I am on Prednisone now, and I know it’s only a matter of days before I will have thrush once again. Can anybody offer any suggestions? If not, I guess it’s back to the doctor for another prescription drug. Joan

Response:

Question:

Just curious which specific portable nebulizer model you found to be the most portable and reliable?   Thanks! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Michelle.."Been there, done that, and have the T shirt to prove it.’  I am in the same boat…only I have been messing around since October with this.  I have had 4 colds that progressed me to big trouble…turning into bronchitis..pneumonia..and now the latest I have been diagnosed with "vocal cord dysfunction."  When I get a  attack my vocal cords spasm shut at times cutting off my total airway.   So needless to say these docs take no chances with me and I am on a boatload of meds and sky high prednisone.  So I can relate to being sick….You know I am on neb treatnents also every 4-6 hours and I have a portable nebulizer…it is great..it works on batteries or electricity.  If you checked into something like this you could do your treatment anywhere.  The neb kit does not look like a piece of medical equipment.  Before I got this I invested into a car cigarette  plug thing..to allow my portable nebulizer to run in my car.  At least I could do my treatments in the car then.  But now the battery neb has me spoiled and has allowed me to gain somemore independence from being sick.  I like you just want to get better.  Feel free to e mail me if you want to talk.

—Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.—

Response:

Just curious which specific portable nebulizer model you found to be the most portable and reliable?   Thanks!

I have the Omron.  Expensive, but about the size of an electric shaver and can run off ‘AA’ batteries. "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has limits." Einstein

Response:

Hi Michelle.."Been there, done that, and have the T shirt to prove it.’  I am in the same boat…only I have been messing around since October with this.  I have had 4 colds that progressed me to big trouble…turning into bronchitis..pneumonia..and now the latest I have been diagnosed with "vocal cord dysfunction."  When I get a  attack my vocal cords spasm shut at times cutting off my total airway.   So needless to say these docs take no chances with me and I am on a boatload of meds and sky high prednisone.  So I can relate to being sick….You know I am on neb treatnents also every 4-6 hours and I have a portable nebulizer…it is great..it works on batteries or electricity.  If you checked into something like this you could do your treatment anywhere.  The neb kit does not look like a piece of medical equipment.  Before I got this I invested into a car cigarette  plug thing..to allow my portable nebulizer to run in my car.  At least I could do my treatments in the car then.  But now the battery neb has me spoiled and has allowed me to gain somemore independence from being sick.  I like you just want

Response:

  My 6 year old went threw the same thing a little while ago. He had to take his nebs.  every 4 hours and a couple liquids.  Did you get a chest xray?It sounds like you have pnemonia.That is what my son had and you have to be put on a stronger antibiotic and it will take time and rest!!!!! Plenty of rest to get better!!!or you may get sicker as he did . You cant keep a six year old down. But hes better now.  Hope you feel better!!! and good luck with your Dr.

Response:

Michelle, I have the same problem… but only occurs when I am stressed… it usually doesn’t matter weather its mental or physical… it just occurs.  By doing my best to ‘calm-down’ usually helps the most… Good luck, Neal – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello.  I have been on a number of medicines for almost three years (Flovent 110, Serevent, MaxAir, Albuterol with nebulizer, Rinocort, Allegra-D, and Zyrtec).  I have been feeling okay until about a month ago when I developed a terrible cough.  My peak flows have been low (down to 270 in the mornings with 460 being my best).  Last month the doc told me I had a respiratory infection and put me on an antibiotic.  It is now almost May and I am still coughing.  My lungs feel very congested but I can’t cough anything up.  Now the doctor is telling me to increase my nebulizer treatment to 5-6 times a day.  I am 22 and trying to go to college.  I really don’t have time to come home and take these treatments every 4 hours and I don’t feel comfortable taking it in public.  Anyway, I am getting frustrated with all of this medicine and not feeling any better.  Just wanted to know if anyone else has had a similar experience.

Response:

Hi, I am trying to go to college right now and am having a major flare-up. Steroids, antibiotics, Proventil…You know the drill.  I was really frusterated.  My grades plummeted.  I was an A student and now I am barely getting Cs.  However, things are looking up.  I washed down my room with some help from other people.  I got a steam cleaner and cleaned the carpets.  Then rinsed them with clear water in the steamer.  I wiped down the walls with plain water.  I got a dust-mite cover for my mattress, and dust-mite resistant pillows and a hyperallergenic, dust-mite resistant comforter.  It took a lot of breath to do all this, and I realize that the last thing that you want to do is move anymore than you haveto.  I could not figure out what was triggering my asthma, and frankly still haven’t, but really cleaning my room where I sleep made a big difference.  I also got a HEPA air filter.  I was willing to try anything to feel better.  I do feel better, not perfect, but definitely better.  I actually did a lot better on my last computer project!!!!  Good luck in school and don’t give up!!!! Lisa R.

Response:

Hello.  I have been on a number of medicines for almost three years (Flovent 110, Serevent, MaxAir, Albuterol with nebulizer, Rinocort, Allegra-D, and Zyrtec).  I have been feeling okay until about a month ago when I developed a terrible cough.  My peak flows have been low (down to 270 in the mornings with 460 being my best).  Last month the doc told me I had a respiratory infection and put me on an antibiotic.  It is now almost May and I am still coughing.  My lungs feel very congested but I can’t cough anything up.  Now the doctor is telling me to increase my nebulizer treatment to 5-6 times a day.  I am 22 and trying to go to college.  I really don’t have time to come home and take these treatments every 4 hours and I don’t feel comfortable taking it in public.  Anyway, I am getting frustrated with all of this medicine and not feeling any better.  Just wanted to know if anyone else has had a similar experience.

Perhaps you need to find out if all of those medicines are really necessary. Talk to your Dr or get another opinion if necessary. I found out the hard way that medicines don’t always work in the same way for everyone. As the consutlant said to me, "One man’s poison is another man’s …". Jo

Response:

Hello.  I have been on a number of medicines for almost three years (Flovent 110, Serevent, MaxAir, Albuterol with nebulizer, Rinocort, Allegra-D, and Zyrtec).  I have been feeling okay until about a month ago when I developed a terrible cough.  My peak flows have been low (down to 270 in the mornings with 460 being my best).  Last month the doc told me I had a respiratory infection and put me on an antibiotic.  It is now almost May and I am still coughing.  My lungs feel very congested but I can’t cough anything up.  Now the doctor is telling me to increase my nebulizer treatment to 5-6 times a day.  I am 22 and trying to go to college.  I really don’t have time to come home and take these treatments every 4 hours and I don’t feel comfortable taking it in public.  Anyway, I am getting frustrated with all of this medicine and not feeling any better.  Just wanted to know if anyone else has had a similar experience.

Some quick comments; *Be sure to drink a lot of water, 6-8 glasses or so a day, to help liquify the mucus in your lungs so you can cough it up. Guafensin may help, available OTC. Some cough medicine has it. *Antihistamines tend to dry up secrections, may make it harder to cough up; same thing for pseudoephedrine the decongestant in Allegra-D. You’re not taking both Zyrtec and Allegra-D are you? I would question the use of antihistamines at this time.  The alternative treatment for nasal problems is nasal sprays; like Nasalcrom (OTC), or steroid nasal sprays like Rhinocort, Flonase. *5-6 nebulizer treatments a day sounds excessive. Each typical 2.5 mg treatment is equivalent to 10 puffs of albuterol by MDI inhaler, like Ventolin; so you are getting up to 50-60 pf/day of albuterol. WOW. Most asthmatics get all the albuterol they need from a Ventolin MDI, even for exacerbations, according to the Expert Panel Report 2. Albuterol probably won’t help treat the lung congestion, it’s a bronchodilator. How much Flovent 110 are you using. You may need to go the stronger version, Flovent 220 (or increase the Flovent 110) Steroid inhalers like Flovent or Pulmicort are what treat the inflammation and help control mucus. Postural drainage can be used to aid in coughing up phlegm; head has to be lower than rest of body. I had these same symptoms one time from acute bronchitis, a viral infection (antibiotics don’t help if viral, according to doctor). I recommend a 2nd opinion from another doctor, preferably a specialist; like a pulmonologist, allergist, or ENT. Ellis

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Hello.  I have been on a number of medicines for almost three years (Flovent 110, Serevent, MaxAir, Albuterol with nebulizer, Rinocort, Allegra-D, and Zyrtec).  I have been feeling okay until about a month ago when I developed a terrible cough.  My peak flows have been low (down to 270 in the mornings with 460 being my best).  Last month the doc told me I had a respiratory infection and put me on an antibiotic.  It is now almost May and I am still coughing.  My lungs feel very congested but I can’t cough anything up.  Now the doctor is telling me to increase my nebulizer treatment to 5-6 times a day.  I am 22 and trying to go to college.  I really don’t have time to come home and take these treatments every 4 hours and I don’t feel comfortable taking it in public.  Anyway, I am getting frustrated with all of this medicine and not feeling any better.  Just wanted to know if anyone else has had a similar experience.

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Question:

You have learned a very important thing about there being no upward bound.  The key is to make sure the patient is titrated upward properly.  Many doctors mistakenly believe that at a certain dosage, resp failure will ensue.  That is BS just as long as the patient has been *gradually* taken up to their dosages. As for cost, Oxy and MS-Con are VERY expensive.  Oramorph is about the same price also.   90 Oxycontin of 40 mg strength can run anywhere from $400 to $500. (I’ve heard that the methadone equivalent of these is about $15-$25. You can see why some patients might need to use methadone). That is ALOT of dough for either Oxy or MS-Contin.  It is important for pain physicians to discuss what insurance their patients have and to work with them to make sure they can afford the meds.  Before the doc even pulls out the prescription pad, a discussion should take place about what insurance the patient has (if any).  Most people can simply not afford paying over $1000 per month out of pocket (assuming prescriptions for Oxycontin and a breakthru med like Oxyfast). – Jon  (:o)}< – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – First, this is my own personal preferences.  Doctors are allowed to be fickle too (most are MORE so).  I guess if I start using it more and get more comfortable with it, then I’ll start to use it more.  The hospice I direct has contracts for MS Contin/Oxy Contin so they get it cheaper.  The residency program I came from had a pharmacy that had both Oxy/MS and methadone.  I just preferred the first two. Now allow me to clear up one misconception you stated: there are no upper limits for ANY opiate that is not mixed with something else.  So there is no upper limit for morphine, oxycodone or methadone.  You keep taking more until you get the dose that benefits you.  That is one simple rule that many docs don’t like.  Some incorrectly believe that there is some "magic" number that if they pass that dose, the patient (still in horrible pain) will stop breathing.  That is simply NOT true.  No one will be dying from respiratory failure from too much narcotic while they still have significant pain.  Pain is the PERFECT antagonist for opiates…better than naloxone. Cost can be a significant factor, but I have not encountered that yet.  I know I will, just not yet. It does sound like you have a great pain doc.  Stick with her and tell your friends about her too. — Bill Work Personally, it is my last choice for long-acting, oral narcotics. Notice I said "personally".  It has a half-life of 24 hours but you must take it three times a day for pain relief. Is the 3x/day dosing the reason you don’t like the methadone, or is there another reason for not liking it? It surely is a life saver cost wise for those who cannot afford the high prices of OxyContin and other meds which have no generics. My pain-management physician also says that there is no upper limit on methadone. She prescribes whatever it takes to reach the goal that one is seeking for pain relief and gives breakthrough medication also. Now a few questions…who in the world put you on OxyContin four times a day?  What if you took 80 mg every 12 hours (not twice a day but every 12 hours)?  Does it make you too sleepy?  Do you get too much breakthrough pain? I was on OxyContin a while back and found it to be practically useless for me. My first pain-management physician started me out on 3x/day because he said that it didn’t last longer than 8 hours for most people. I can’t see any difference between taking OxyContin 3x/day and methadone 3x/day except for the fact that methadone works much better for me than OxyContin, and I have saved a bundle of money. Annie B.

Response:

Thank you Harley for the inforation you provided….printed alot of it off and have it ready for my Dr appointment  on Thursday. It should give him some idea on what I’m talking about. Thanks again…I appreciate all the help everyone has given me…….Joan

Response:

Hi Joan. I am 28yrs. and I would like to share my medication history with you.  I have been on narcotics for the treatment of Avascular Necrosis for the past 3yrs  I am currently taking 30mg of methadone every 6hrs; 120mg/day.  75mg of morphine ER/day ;30-45mg twice a day . Also, oxycodone 10mg every 4hrs.; 60mg/day.  However, I am still in a great deal of pain every second of the day.  Before switching to Methadone, I was on oxycontin 80mg/day along with the same dose of oxycodone and things where pretty much the same.  So, if cost is the only issue, I would give methadone a try.But i was recently told that methadone can damage the bones.  Therefor, I am now lookng for a drug to replace methadone since I already have a bone disease. I pray that you will soon find the right medication for you.

Response:

I agree…so I guess I need to only treat patients with good insurance????? No, you made some good points. — Bill Work

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You have learned a very important thing about there being no upward bound.  The key is to make sure the patient is titrated upward properly.  Many doctors mistakenly believe that at a certain dosage, resp failure will ensue.  That is BS just as long as the patient has been *gradually* taken up to their dosages. As for cost, Oxy and MS-Con are VERY expensive.  Oramorph is about the same price also. 90 Oxycontin of 40 mg strength can run anywhere from $400 to $500. (I’ve heard that the methadone equivalent of these is about $15-$25. You can see why some patients might need to use methadone). That is ALOT of dough for either Oxy or MS-Contin.  It is important for pain physicians to discuss what insurance their patients have and to work with them to make sure they can afford the meds.  Before the doc even pulls out the prescription pad, a discussion should take place about what insurance the patient has (if any).  Most people can simply not afford paying over $1000 per month out of pocket (assuming prescriptions for Oxycontin and a breakthru med like Oxyfast). – Jon  (:o)}< First, this is my own personal preferences.  Doctors are allowed to be fickle too (most are MORE so).  I guess if I start using it more and get more comfortable with it, then I’ll start to use it more.  The hospice I direct has contracts for MS Contin/Oxy Contin so they get it cheaper. The residency program I came from had a pharmacy that had both Oxy/MS and methadone.  I just preferred the first two. Now allow me to clear up one misconception you stated: there are no upper limits for ANY opiate that is not mixed with something else.  So there is no upper limit for morphine, oxycodone or methadone.  You keep taking more until you get the dose that benefits you.  That is one simple rule that many docs don’t like.  Some incorrectly believe that there is some "magic" number that if they pass that dose, the patient (still in horrible pain) will stop breathing.  That is simply NOT true.  No one will be dying from respiratory failure from too much narcotic while they still have significant pain. Pain is the PERFECT antagonist for opiates…better than naloxone. Cost can be a significant factor, but I have not encountered that yet.  I know I will, just not yet. It does sound like you have a great pain doc.  Stick with her and tell your friends about her too. — Bill Work Personally, it is my last choice for long-acting, oral narcotics. Notice I said "personally".  It has a half-life of 24 hours but you must take it three times a day for pain relief. Is the 3x/day dosing the reason you don’t like the methadone, or is there another reason for not liking it? It surely is a life saver cost wise for those who cannot afford the high prices of OxyContin and other meds which have no generics. My pain-management physician also says that there is no upper limit on methadone. She prescribes whatever it takes to reach the goal that one is seeking for pain relief and gives breakthrough medication also. Now a few questions…who in the world put you on OxyContin four times a day?  What if you took 80 mg every 12 hours (not twice a day but every 12 hours)?  Does it make you too sleepy?  Do you get too much breakthrough pain? I was on OxyContin a while back and found it to be practically useless for me. My first pain-management physician started me out on 3x/day because he said that it didn’t last longer than 8 hours for most people. I can’t see any difference between taking OxyContin 3x/day and methadone 3x/day except for the fact that methadone works much better for me than OxyContin, and I have saved a bundle of money. Annie B.

Response:

May I ask why you are on so many different narcotics?????  You should be on only ONE narcotic and maximize that to its fullest potential. Reminds me of hospice referrals we would get from the Internal Medicine teams.  They would discharge someone on Duragesic patches, OxyContin, Percocets and MS IR (no joke!).  BTW, the patient would still be in 7/10 pain. So, your dose of methadone is too small.  If this is the drug of choice for you (I hadn’t heard about the bone stuff), then it should be maximized. What is the limit?  There is NO limit.  You take an increasing dose until you either have the pain to a manageable level or you get tired of taking so many pills. As a pain physician, I would be VERY uncomfortable giving you that diverse of a medication regimen.  It sounds too complex and more likely to have problems getting the proper doses. Just my two cents…and I didn’t even bill you for it… — Bill Work

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Joan. I am 28yrs. and I would like to share my medication history with you.  I have been on narcotics for the treatment of Avascular Necrosis for the past 3yrs  I am currently taking 30mg of methadone every 6hrs; 120mg/day.  75mg of morphine ER/day ;30-45mg twice a day . Also, oxycodone 10mg every 4hrs.; 60mg/day.  However, I am still in a great deal of pain every second of the day.  Before switching to Methadone, I was on oxycontin 80mg/day along with the same dose of oxycodone and things where pretty much the same.  So, if cost is the only issue, I would give methadone a try.But i was recently told that methadone can damage the bones.  Therefor, I am now lookng for a drug to replace methadone since I already have a bone disease. I pray that you will soon find the right medication for you.

Response:

Ironman is quite right. Trying to last 12 hours on one pill did not come close to helping me anyway. I have found the change to QID, yes every 6 hours for oxycontin has a made major improvement in my quality of life – at least for me. TID is a near norm with many I’ve read over the last year. Some thoughts I wanted to pass along. My previous pain doc used methadone as his fist narcotic of choice for some chronic patients because of it being affordable. This enabled him to treat all folks with pain both rich and the poor uninsured – me. Fortunately I now receive help due to past employment before I could not work. I’m still paying on the previous bills for medication over several years.  I hope and pray each month my medications go through one more time. I could never afford the meds and would be back to my past situation borrowing money. Oxy works best for me, unfortunately. Thought you might find this interesting. Have a good day, Matt

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Personally, it is my last choice for long-acting, oral narcotics.  Notice I said "personally".  It has a half-life of 24 hours but you must take it three times a day for pain relief. Now a few questions…who in the world put you on OxyContin four times a day?  What if you took 80 mg every 12 hours (not twice a day but every 12 hours)?  Does it make you too sleepy?  Do you get too much breakthrough pain? Dr. Work, While OxyContin is a very good pain reliever, it doesn’t last 12 hours. IMHO it stops being effective after 6-8 hours. YMMV, but she could need to take 40 mg. 4x per day. This is just my spin on the situation. ironman Got questions?  Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. Up to 100 minutes free! http://www.keen.com

Response:

Dear Doc.  Thank you for the info.  I am certainly going to request that my medications be re_ evaluated.  My pain alway ranges 7to 10.  I was starting to feel that there was no hope of having my pain managed.  My doc said that 120mg of methadone was as high as it could be.  That is why morphine er was added.  The oxycodone is for breakthrough pain and my pain is so grea that I take it every 4hrs. around the clock. THANKS FOR ANY HELP YOU CAN GIVE

Response:

William: I know you were joking, but no…..the key is to use drugs that have generic formularies with under- or noninsured patients. Methadone comes to mind for a "long-term" delivery drug. Another option is to use a suspension form of hydrocodone in syrup form.  This tends to stay in the body for an extended period of time. Bunch of these on the market for people with severe coughing. Still nothing wrong with Percocet/dan.  Keep in mind that the drug companies have now come out with 2.5/5/10 mg formulations.  Drs need to specify which strength they are writing for. Vicoden ES or its generics are cheaper (by comparison).  Norco is not all that expensive either. OR…..if you have a compounding pharmacy near your practice and you want to avoid APAP toxicity……have the pharmacist compound pure hydrocodone.  IT CAN BE DONE. With poorer folks, you just need to be a little bit more creative. They will thank you for it 1000% over tho  (:o) – Jon  (:o)}< – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I agree…so I guess I need to only treat patients with good insurance????? No, you made some good points. — Bill Work You have learned a very important thing about there being no upward bound.  The key is to make sure the patient is titrated upward properly.  Many doctors mistakenly believe that at a certain dosage, resp failure will ensue.  That is BS just as long as the patient has been *gradually* taken up to their dosages. As for cost, Oxy and MS-Con are VERY expensive.  Oramorph is about the same price also. 90 Oxycontin of 40 mg strength can run anywhere from $400 to $500. (I’ve heard that the methadone equivalent of these is about $15-$25. You can see why some patients might need to use methadone). That is ALOT of dough for either Oxy or MS-Contin.  It is important for pain physicians to discuss what insurance their patients have and to work with them to make sure they can afford the meds.  Before the doc even pulls out the prescription pad, a discussion should take place about what insurance the patient has (if any).  Most people can simply not afford paying over $1000 per month out of pocket (assuming prescriptions for Oxycontin and a breakthru med like Oxyfast). – Jon  (:o)}< First, this is my own personal preferences.  Doctors are allowed to be fickle too (most are MORE so).  I guess if I start using it more and get more comfortable with it, then I’ll start to use it more.  The hospice I direct has contracts for MS Contin/Oxy Contin so they get it cheaper. The residency program I came from had a pharmacy that had both Oxy/MS and methadone.  I just preferred the first two. Now allow me to clear up one misconception you stated: there are no upper limits for ANY opiate that is not mixed with something else.  So there is no upper limit for morphine, oxycodone or methadone.  You keep taking more until you get the dose that benefits you.  That is one simple rule that many docs don’t like.  Some incorrectly believe that there is some "magic" number that if they pass that dose, the patient (still in horrible pain) will stop breathing.  That is simply NOT true.  No one will be dying from respiratory failure from too much narcotic while they still have significant pain. Pain is the PERFECT antagonist for opiates…better than naloxone. Cost can be a significant factor, but I have not encountered that yet.  I know I will, just not yet. It does sound like you have a great pain doc.  Stick with her and tell your friends about her too. — Bill Work Personally, it is my last choice for long-acting, oral narcotics. Notice I said "personally".  It has a half-life of 24 hours but you must take it three times a day for pain relief. Is the 3x/day dosing the reason you don’t like the methadone, or is there another reason for not liking it? It surely is a life saver cost wise for those who cannot afford the high prices of OxyContin and other meds which have no generics. My pain-management physician also says that there is no upper limit on methadone. She prescribes whatever it takes to reach the goal that one is seeking for pain relief and gives breakthrough medication also. Now a few questions…who in the world put you on OxyContin four times a day?  What if you took 80 mg every 12 hours (not twice a day but every 12 hours)?  Does it make you too sleepy?  Do you get too much breakthrough pain? I was on OxyContin a while back and found it to be practically useless for me. My first pain-management physician started me out on 3x/day because he said that it didn’t last longer than 8 hours for most people. I can’t see any difference between taking OxyContin 3x/day and methadone 3x/day except for the fact that methadone works much better for me than OxyContin, and I have saved a bundle of money. Annie B.

Response:

What this demonstrates is that everyone is different and everything about the person must be taken into account…..snippage I am never concerned about a chronic pain patient over-medicating.  They would have to prove to me that they are incompetant with their meds before I begin to get worried.  I know a pain doc here in town who on the first visit, gives the patient a large amount of MS IR to use and asks them to write down each day how much and how often they use it.  He then re-evaluates them in one month and starts them on a chronic dose.  I personally don’t do that but instead make an educated guess as to how much to start and give breakthrough MS IR/Oxy IR then make the adjustment.

When I began methadone I was prescribed 100 5 mg tablets. I was instructed to start at 5 mg every 6 hours for three days and then titrate the doseage by 5 mg increments every three days till I felt comfortable. I then settled at 10mg every 6 hours, a relatively small dose. I am now at 20 mg every 6 hours but I have only needed two small adjustments in 18 months. It took me two years of agony to get into that doctor’s care, I certainly don’t recommend that you take that long to find the right MD! I never take stuff for granted after having gone through so much. I know how fortunate I am because I don’t live in this NG anymore! I actually have days now, where I forget about this stuff entirely. Jim S Jim S

Response:

Many many patients find that Oxycontin does not last 12 hours.  It is more like 8 hours.  Many Oxy prescriptions are now for dosing one TID. I’ve read reports of patients on 4x daily dosing.  Since the drug comes in so many different strengths, it is very useful for the clinician since they can easily titrate the dose. Since different patients metabolize oxycodone at different rates, I can imagine patients who might need QID dosing.  We’ve had patients on this newsgroup that were/are taking "heroic" amounts of Oxycontin on a daily basis and their pain was barely in check. Pain management requires an "exploratory" mindset.  Just because the manufacturer promises a certain delivery, does not mean a given patient will achieve that. If I had lost my insurance, I would give methadone major consideration.  It is dirt cheap and works very well. – Jon  (:o)}< – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Personally, it is my last choice for long-acting, oral narcotics.  Notice I said "personally".  It has a half-life of 24 hours but you must take it three times a day for pain relief. Now a few questions…who in the world put you on OxyContin four times a day?  What if you took 80 mg every 12 hours (not twice a day but every 12 hours)?  Does it make you too sleepy?  Do you get too much breakthrough pain? — Bill Work I have been lurking for several months and have gotten alot of help from this group. I am looking for information on methodone…how well does it work for pain control and where could I find web sites to learn more about it? I am on oxycontine 40 mg 4 x a day right now for neck and arm pain (cervical injury)…..however my insurance company, workers comp, has stopped paying for my meds and I am having a very difficult time paying for all the meds my dr. prescribes. I have heard that methodone is cheaper, but want to know if it is some thing I should , or would want to start on in place of oxycontine. I have a very compassionate dr who is willing to help me in any way he can, however admits he does not know enough about the methadone, being used for chronic pain, to tell me if it would be the right drug for me, or how well it really works. I would appreciate any help that you could give me on this. Thank you…..Joan

Response:

First, this is my own personal preferences.  Doctors are allowed to be fickle too (most are MORE so).  I guess if I start using it more and get more comfortable with it, then I’ll start to use it more.  The hospice I direct has contracts for MS Contin/Oxy Contin so they get it cheaper.  The residency program I came from had a pharmacy that had both Oxy/MS and methadone.  I just preferred the first two. Now allow me to clear up one misconception you stated: there are no upper limits for ANY opiate that is not mixed with something else.  So there is no upper limit for morphine, oxycodone or methadone.  You keep taking more until you get the dose that benefits you.  That is one simple rule that many docs don’t like.  Some incorrectly believe that there is some "magic" number that if they pass that dose, the patient (still in horrible pain) will stop breathing.  That is simply NOT true.  No one will be dying from respiratory failure from too much narcotic while they still have significant pain.  Pain is the PERFECT antagonist for opiates…better than naloxone. Cost can be a significant factor, but I have not encountered that yet.  I know I will, just not yet. It does sound like you have a great pain doc.  Stick with her and tell your friends about her too. — Bill Work

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Personally, it is my last choice for long-acting, oral narcotics. Notice I said "personally".  It has a half-life of 24 hours but you must take it three times a day for pain relief. Is the 3x/day dosing the reason you don’t like the methadone, or is there another reason for not liking it? It surely is a life saver cost wise for those who cannot afford the high prices of OxyContin and other meds which have no generics. My pain-management physician also says that there is no upper limit on methadone. She prescribes whatever it takes to reach the goal that one is seeking for pain relief and gives breakthrough medication also. Now a few questions…who in the world put you on OxyContin four times a day?  What if you took 80 mg every 12 hours (not twice a day but every 12 hours)?  Does it make you too sleepy?  Do you get too much breakthrough pain? I was on OxyContin a while back and found it to be practically useless for me. My first pain-management physician started me out on 3x/day because he said that it didn’t last longer than 8 hours for most people. I can’t see any difference between taking OxyContin 3x/day and methadone 3x/day except for the fact that methadone works much better for me than OxyContin, and I have saved a bundle of money. Annie B.

Response:

I was wondering if you or anyone else would know where I can find information on methodone for pain management that I can print out for my Dr to read.

Joan–.–    I’ll find you something and either post it or send it to you directly, your choice.  Methadone is `wonderful` stuff!  It, at the very LEAST, doubled the quality and intensity of my life! –

Question:

Does anyone have experience with taking Celexa vs. Prozac?  Thanks so much.

Response:

Does anyone have experience with taking Celexa vs. Prozac?  Thanks so much.

I tried Prozac once a long time ago, but I had to stop after a few days. Prozac made me extremely anxious. Celexa is the best SSRI I have taken. I just switched from Zoloft to Celexa, and Celexa is equally or more effective as an anti-depressant with fewer and milder side effects than Zoloft, which is already a lot better than Prozac.

Response:

Question:

Travis, I currently take Zoloft as well and I have never heard about this kind of side effect. My friend suffered with seizures over the last ten years and was told he was epileptic but it turns out he had a brain tumor and went to the Mayo Clinic to have it removed. Maybe a MRI as requested by your doctor would rule this out? Maybe Benzo’s wouldn’t help you because you were reacting to Zoloft withdrawal, Klonopin would be worth a try now to see if it helps. Good Luck. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Do you take an anti-seizure medication? I tried it (before i chose to stop the Zoloft a while back) but it didn’t help at all.

Response:

Why on earth would you continue to take a drug that caused seizures? Why would any competent doctor prescribe it? Do you take an anti-seizure medication?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I get seizers from Zoloft. Unfortunately, it was the only medication that did anything to help. Since I restarted my medication, I have only passed out three times. But then again, I am not yet at full dosage yet (started at 25mg, increase by 25mg every other week until I reach my needed dose of 200mg). Probably once I get to full dose, I will start the shakes more often. It’s somewhat funny really, I am partially conscious the whole time. I hear but can’t see. I feel but feel no pain. It really freaks people out when it happens in public. Their all like "what do I do?" and stuff. AT least I know when I am going to have one. I just feel somewhat dizzy and seem to emit some sort of mediciney odor (smells like opening a new bottle of medicine). I usually have enough time to prepare, such as setting down the glass of water I may be holding, or sitting down, or whatever. I have yet to get hurt from it. When I fall, it is more of a slow slumping. Anybody else get this type of reaction to Zoloft? ~Travis — My Web: http://www.megalink.net/~farmers/ Gaming section yet to be finished. MT Bike section almost fully compleated. (trail pics work now)

Response:

No offense, man, but I wish I hadn’t read this. Does your doc know? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I get seizers from Zoloft. Unfortunately, it was the only medication that did anything to help. Since I restarted my medication, I have only passed out three times. But then again, I am not yet at full dosage yet (started at 25mg, increase by 25mg every other week until I reach my needed dose of 200mg). Probably once I get to full dose, I will start the shakes more often. It’s somewhat funny really, I am partially conscious the whole time. I hear but can’t see. I feel but feel no pain. It really freaks people out when it happens in public. Their all like "what do I do?" and stuff. AT least I know when I am going to have one. I just feel somewhat dizzy and seem to emit some sort of mediciney odor (smells like opening a new bottle of medicine). I usually have enough time to prepare, such as setting down the glass of water I may be holding, or sitting down, or whatever. I have yet to get hurt from it. When I fall, it is more of a slow slumping. Anybody else get this type of reaction to Zoloft? ~Travis — My Web: http://www.megalink.net/~farmers/ Gaming section yet to be finished. MT Bike section almost fully compleated. (trail pics work now)

Response:

Question:

ROFLMAO! Brilliant! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Nashua, NH (March 6) – Diets high in carbohydrates are known for causing extreme laziness but researchers have show that they can also impair memory in humans, The Enquirer reported Monday. Studies of overweight humans which had been fed diets high in carbohydrates since birth showed they did not perform typical tasks as well as lean humans raised on a low carbohydrate diet. "High carbohydrate diets impair activity on virtually all of our measures," said Alfred E. Newman of the Baywatch Center for Bovine Care in California. In our study the lean adult humans went about their chores as one would expect.  The high carb diet humans however, were a different story.  They spent hours in front of the television and had apparently forgotten where the treadmill was, and even where the lawn mower was to be able to cut the lawn.  They seemed oblivious of the fact that the world outside was passing them by. "It’s remarkable how impaired these people are." Newman and his colleagues suspect that carbohydrates interfere with insulin and prevents the brain from using glucose.  They are concerned that the high carbohydrate diet consisting of french fries, potato chips and other snacks preferred by most teenagers could be damaging pathways to the brain. "And maybe the developing brain is much more susceptible than the older brain." "Maybe the developing brain is much more susceptible than the older brain. Did I say that already?", Newman added.

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Yeah, this is truly wonderful, John… still laughing – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Nashua, NH (March 6) – Diets high in carbohydrates are known for causing extreme laziness but researchers have show that they can also impair memory in humans, The Enquirer reported Monday. Studies of overweight humans which had been fed diets high in carbohydrates since birth showed they did not perform typical tasks as well as lean humans raised on a low carbohydrate diet. "High carbohydrate diets impair activity on virtually all of our measures," said Alfred E. Newman of the Baywatch Center for Bovine Care in California. In our study the lean adult humans went about their chores as one would expect.  The high carb diet humans however, were a different story.  They spent hours in front of the television and had apparently forgotten where the treadmill was, and even where the lawn mower was to be able to cut the lawn.  They seemed oblivious of the fact that the world outside was passing them by. "It’s remarkable how impaired these people are." Newman and his colleagues suspect that carbohydrates interfere with insulin and prevents the brain from using glucose.  They are concerned that the high carbohydrate diet consisting of french fries, potato chips and other snacks preferred by most teenagers could be damaging pathways to the brain. "And maybe the developing brain is much more susceptible than the older brain." "Maybe the developing brain is much more susceptible than the older brain. Did I say that already?", Newman added. Just came across this and it was of some concern. Not sure if the low carb WOE, is protective against the fat or not. Any comments? Fatty Diet Clogs Up Brain As Well As Arteries Reuters LONDON (March 1) – Diets high in fat are well known for causing blocked arteries but Canadian researchers have shown they can also impair memory in rats, New Scientist magazine reported Wednesday. Studies of adolescent rats which had been fed diets rich in animal and vegetable fats since birth showed they did not perform trained tasks as well as lean rodents raised on a more balanced diet. "High-fat diets impair performance on virtually all our measures," said Gordon Winocur of the Baycrest Center for Geriatric Care in Toronto. "It’s remarkable how impaired these animals are." Winocur and his colleagues suspect the fat interferes with insulin and prevents the brain from using glucose. They are concerned that the high fat diet preferred by most teenagers could be damaging pathways in the brain. "And maybe the developing brain is much more susceptible than the older brain," Winocur added. 14:23 02-28-01 Copyright 2001 Reuters Limited.  All rights reserved.  Republication or redistribution of Reuters content, including by framing or similar means, is expressly prohibited without the prior written consent of Reuters. Reuters shall not be liable for any errors or delays in the content, or for any actions taken in reliance thereon.  All active hyperlinks have been inserted by AOL.

Response:

Yeah, this was reported in the New Scientist as well. Dryad, who wonders exactly how this "study" was done, and on whom — 279/275/160 Begun 2/14/01

Response:

Nashua, NH (March 6) – Diets high in carbohydrates are known for causing extreme laziness but researchers have show that they can also impair memory in humans, The Enquirer reported Monday. Studies of overweight humans which had been fed diets high in carbohydrates since birth showed they did not perform typical tasks as well as lean humans raised on a low carbohydrate diet. "High carbohydrate diets impair activity on virtually all of our measures," said Alfred E. Newman of the Baywatch Center for Bovine Care in California. In our study the lean adult humans went about their chores as one would expect.  The high carb diet humans however, were a different story.  They spent hours in front of the television and had apparently forgotten where the treadmill was, and even where the lawn mower was to be able to cut the lawn.  They seemed oblivious of the fact that the world outside was passing them by. "It’s remarkable how impaired these people are." Newman and his colleagues suspect that carbohydrates interfere with insulin and prevents the brain from using glucose.  They are concerned that the high carbohydrate diet consisting of french fries, potato chips and other snacks preferred by most teenagers could be damaging pathways to the brain. "And maybe the developing brain is much more susceptible than the older brain." "Maybe the developing brain is much more susceptible than the older brain. Did I say that already?", Newman added.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just came across this and it was of some concern. Not sure if the low carb WOE, is protective against the fat or not. Any comments? Fatty Diet Clogs Up Brain As Well As Arteries Reuters LONDON (March 1) – Diets high in fat are well known for causing blocked arteries but Canadian researchers have shown they can also impair memory in rats, New Scientist magazine reported Wednesday. Studies of adolescent rats which had been fed diets rich in animal and vegetable fats since birth showed they did not perform trained tasks as well as lean rodents raised on a more balanced diet. "High-fat diets impair performance on virtually all our measures," said Gordon Winocur of the Baycrest Center for Geriatric Care in Toronto. "It’s remarkable how impaired these animals are." Winocur and his colleagues suspect the fat interferes with insulin and prevents the brain from using glucose. They are concerned that the high fat diet preferred by most teenagers could be damaging pathways in the brain. "And maybe the developing brain is much more susceptible than the older brain," Winocur added. 14:23 02-28-01 Copyright 2001 Reuters Limited.  All rights reserved.  Republication or redistribution of Reuters content, including by framing or similar means, is expressly prohibited without the prior written consent of Reuters. Reuters shall not be liable for any errors or delays in the content, or for any actions taken in reliance thereon.  All active hyperlinks have been inserted by

AOL.

Response:

Just came across this and it was of some concern. Not sure if the low carb WOE, is protective against the fat or not. Any comments? Fatty Diet Clogs Up Brain As Well As Arteries Reuters LONDON (March 1) – Diets high in fat are well known for causing blocked arteries but Canadian researchers have shown they can also impair memory in rats, New Scientist magazine reported Wednesday. Studies of adolescent rats which had been fed diets rich in animal and vegetable fats since birth showed they did not perform trained tasks as well as lean rodents raised on a more balanced diet. "High-fat diets impair performance on virtually all our measures," said Gordon Winocur of the Baycrest Center for Geriatric Care in Toronto. "It’s remarkable how impaired these animals are." Winocur and his colleagues suspect the fat interferes with insulin and prevents the brain from using glucose. They are concerned that the high fat diet preferred by most teenagers could be damaging pathways in the brain. "And maybe the developing brain is much more susceptible than the older brain," Winocur added. 14:23 02-28-01 Copyright 2001 Reuters Limited.  All rights reserved.  Republication or redistribution of Reuters content, including by framing or similar means, is expressly prohibited without the prior written consent of Reuters.  Reuters shall not be liable for any errors or delays in the content, or for any actions taken in reliance thereon.  All active hyperlinks have been inserted by AOL.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just came across this and it was of some concern. Not sure if the low carb WOE, is protective against the fat or not. Any comments? Fatty Diet Clogs Up Brain As Well As Arteries Reuters LONDON (March 1) – Diets high in fat are well known for causing blocked arteries but Canadian researchers have shown they can also impair memory in rats, New Scientist magazine reported Wednesday. Studies of adolescent rats which had been fed diets rich in animal and vegetable fats since birth showed they did not perform trained tasks as well as lean rodents raised on a more balanced diet. "High-fat diets impair performance on virtually all our measures," said Gordon Winocur of the Baycrest Center for Geriatric Care in Toronto. "It’s remarkable how impaired these animals are." Winocur and his colleagues suspect the fat interferes with insulin and prevents the brain from using glucose. They are concerned that the high fat diet preferred by most teenagers could be damaging pathways in the brain. "And maybe the developing brain is much more susceptible than the older brain," Winocur added. 14:23 02-28-01 Copyright 2001 Reuters Limited.  All rights reserved.  Republication or redistribution of Reuters content, including by framing or similar means, is expressly prohibited without the prior written consent of Reuters.  Reuters shall not be liable for any errors or delays in the content, or for any actions taken in reliance thereon.  All active hyperlinks have been inserted by AOL.

Certainly, a high fat and high carbohydrate diet can cause multiple problems. (If you are metabolising sugar, you aren’t using the fat you are consuming). No such correlation has been shown with high fat/low carbohydrate diets. Note this statement: Winocur and his colleagues suspect the fat interferes with insulin and prevents the brain from using glucose. From everything I have read, the brain and red blood cells need sugar for part of their function (other body tissues do not). But the brain and blood cells don’t need insulin to use sugar (while other body tissues do). So it doesn’t follow that even if fat interfered with insulin, that it should prevent the brain from using glucose.

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Just came across this and it was of some concern. Not sure if the low carb WOE, is protective against the fat or not. Any comments? <snip Winocur and his colleagues suspect the fat interferes with insulin and prevents the brain from using glucose. They are concerned that the high fat diet preferred by most teenagers could be damaging pathways in the brain. "And maybe the developing brain is much more susceptible than the older brain," Winocur added. 14:23 02-28-01

They’ve left out some information: the animals are not on an lc diet. Studies in humans have shown that a ketogenic (high fat, low everything else) diet can stop epileptic seizures. That’s because the brain does not use glucose as a primary source of food – it uses ketones! Since going on this diet, my sclerosis symptoms (except when I was taking in too much B-6, which brought them back) have cleared up completely. And my benign essential tremor (think of it as Katherine Hepburn shakes) has become a lot milder. My memory is better, my motor functions are up, in other words – bullshit! Also, from the comments Winocur made, (that a developing brain is more susceptible than an older brain, when brain damage research has shown that actually the opposite is true, because developing brain tissure is more regenerative and adaptable) he seems to be doing these experiments without any regard to the research of other scientists, or to what other factors are present in the animals’ environment. He has set out to prove a specific point, and to that end, has basically rigged the experiment to fulfill his expectations. Perhaps not consciously, but he’s getting what he wants. What the public doesn’t know is, often, when scientists report these "important" findings, we rarely hear, or make the connection, when they have to recant earlier findings down the road. In other words – don’t worry. Sandra

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Question:

Have your blood pressure checked

Had it checked a few weeks ago.  It was fine.  If anything, it is too low. I’m dealing with the VA!!  Jerks that they are, just got off the phone with a VA pharmacist who told me that "perhaps I was coming down with the flu."  Doc is not in, and nobody seems to know when he WILL be in. <sigh

Luanne

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LuanneP <luan…@aol.comet

wrote: Have your blood pressure checked Had it checked a few weeks ago.  It was fine.  If anything, it is too low.

If it’s a bit on the low side, than it could be orthostatic hypotension. Have it myself as long as I can remember – it’s causing dizzyness after a (rapid) change of position. I experienced  a total _different_ kind of dizzyness due to effexor: it’s like all my limbs and my head are way ahead of me all the time – I can _see_ where my arms and legs are, but I sense them way behind, and it takes a while for the visual and sensoreous input to  catch up.  That leads to a very intruiging kind of drowsiness when I move my head – interesting experience, but I’m glad it’s over now! dagdag, sterre — .nosig

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Luanne, I am on Serzone and I have had slight dizziness recently.  I dont know if its the chemical, but there are other reasons for dizziness.  One is that there is a bug going round at the moment that causes dizziness.  There are other things, like ear infections, low blood sugar, stress etc. best wishes estelle.

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Maybe somebody can help me with this.  I am on 300 mg. Effexor daily, along with 1.5 mgs and 25 mgs desyrel at night (for sleep.)  I have been on this ‘current cocktail’ for three years now.  Just recently, I started to experience extreme dizziness if, for instance, I bend over to pick up something, and stand up again.  Usually happens in the early part of the day, and kind of scary… Does this happen to anyone here, and why, after three years would I start to experience this side effect now?  This morning, I almost fell over, I got so dizzy after picking up some change I dropped on the floor. Sincerely, Luanne

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You’re safest thing to do is to call and speak with your doctor as soon as you can.  It may be something as simple as your body changing as you get older and requiring an adjustment in the medication.

 Thanks, Wall, That’s what I was going to do….call my doc on Monday.  Thing is, I’ve been sneezing all day, so maybe getting a headcold so that would explain the dizziness too.   Now y’all know a Dizzy Blonde! <g

Luanne

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luan…@aol.comet (LuanneP) wrote:

Maybe somebody can help me with this.  I am on 300 mg. Effexor daily, along with 1.5 mgs and 25 mgs desyrel at night (for sleep.)  I have been on this ‘current cocktail’ for three years now.  Just recently, I started to experience extreme dizziness if, for instance, I bend over to pick up something, and stand up again.  Usually happens in the early part of the day, and kind of scary…

Have your blood pressure checked.  One of the possible side effects of Effexor is elevated blood pressure.  While I was on it, I was also taking two blood pressure medications, and still found myself in the ER a few times with blood pressure of 230/150.  It wasn’t pretty.  Now that I’m on Wellbutrin, I only have to take one medication for blood pressure, and it’s under perfect control.  Just one possibility … ask your doctor about the blood pressure thing, though. (BTW, symptoms of blood pressure problems (for me) included:  dizziness, pounding in the head, and I could feel the blood throbbing through my carotid artery (the big ones in the front corners of the neck) and in my chest.) Hope you find whatever is wrong and get it straightened out. Carol ********* The Mercurial Mind ********* The Wonderful World of Bipolar Disorder http://members.xoom.com/merc_mind/

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Question:

i am 30 years of age and two years ago-suffered a major panic attact and then depression-PAXIL has been a life saver-the first dose was bad for me, but then it was ok i think you should give it a try-but take it faithfully-just recently i skipped a few doses and the attacks and depression are back-i saw my doctor last week and she gave me a presc. to take with my paxil -10grams of celex-i haven’t tried yet-as panic suffers are against medication-i think i am fixing to try it-good luck let me know how it turns out

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i am 30 years of age and two years ago-suffered a major panic attact and then depression-PAXIL has been a life saver-the first dose was bad for me, but then it was ok i think you should give it a try-but take it faithfully-just recently i skipped a few doses and the attacks and depression are back-i saw my doctor last week and she gave me a presc. to take with my paxil -10grams of celex-i haven’t tried yet-as panic suffers are against medication-i think i am fixing to try it-good luck let me know how it turns out

Do you mean *Celexa?* In that case I would be interested to know why your doctor prescribes two SRI’s for you. Not that I think it’s wrong, just interested. Philip

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Dolores, I’m so sorry for your loss.  Thanksgiving was melancholy for me because my mom is in a nursing home after having a stroke 3 weeks ago.  I know it’s not the same as losing someone to death, but she’s not the same person anymore so in that sense I’m grieving the loss of the beautiful mother I knew.  Christmas won’t be much better I’m afraid. I’m on Paxil and I can highly recommend it, if you’re not bothered by the sexual side effects.  I’m not married so it’s no big deal for me. I’m not sure if Zoloft is the same way.  Anyway, Paxil got me through some very rough times over the past few weeks (with a little help from xanax) so I can recommend it from personal experience. If you go with Paxil, I would start ASAP because by the time the holidays hit it should have kicked in for you.  Start slowly at about 10 mg. and increase after 10 days or so.  All with your doctor’s guidance, of course. Best of luck and let us know how you’re doing. Sharon

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i TRIED PAXIL FOR 2 MONTHS AND I WAS A ZOMBIE ALL THE TIME, I FELL ASLEEP DRIVING TWICE, NOW I AM ON MY 3RD MONTH OF ZOLOFT AND DOING GREAT!  GOOD LUCK

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I knew the holidays were going to be rough this year (widowed 4/98) and I also felt that the .5 mg of Klonopin wasn’t going to carry me though  the next month. I was right. I’ve been weepy for the last two weeks, and the panic and anxiety are starting up again, which I have been free of since August! So you see, I need to do something. I’m so sick of this and wish I could propel myself into the future just to be normal again. Tomorrow I’m going to make an appt. to get my meds changed. I think I need the SSRI as my doc kept drilling into me, but Prozac didn’t work well for me. So what has been your experiences with Paxil or Zoloft? I have a friend who said Paxil gave him diahrea -don’t want that! Would a Zoloft/Klonopin mix work? Does that sound reasonable?

Maybe you only have to raise the Klonopin dose from .5 mgs to the average therapeutic dose which is around 3 mgs. If that doesn’t work after, say, two weeks, it might be a good idea to add an AD. Zoloft and Klonopin make a good combination if you’re not troubles by Zoloft side effects such as sexual dysfunction. Philip

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Try the Paxil.  You need to really give it a chance, though.  It can take up to three weeks to notice any results.  The thing with medications such as Paxil, people think they will feel ‘happy’, or their problems will go away.  This is not true.  It will put you in a mindset to deal with your problems like ‘normal’ people.  Normal meaning: someone with regular amounts of serratonnin in their brain.  Good luck. S

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I knew the holidays were going to be rough this year (widowed 4/98)

Dolores, I am so sorry for the death of your husband….. death is never easy to deal with when it comes to someone you love, but, the holidays can just stink, because of it. I lost my step mom (who truly *was* my mother, in the highest sense of the word) four years ago, this month. Then my sister, two years ago, this month, and last year, my grandmother. Novembers just BLOW, AFAIC. I think I know some of what you’re feeling, and I am feeling right along with you. Taking an antidepressant is a good starting place. When life is this tough, you sometimes need a biological correction to get you to a point where you can help yourself heal. (healthy diet, exercise, socializing, hobbies, etc.) It can really make the difference between being so stuck that you can’t find a way out, and feeling confident enough to work on taking care of yourself. There is also the phenomena associated with extended grief, which I am very familiar with — it can promote anxiety, panic attacks, clinical depression and obsessive thinking. Physically, it can prompt a first diagnosis of fibromyalgia in a person who is prone to it, and it can also compromise your immune system. Any of the a/d’s are probably as good as any others to start with, as there is no "blood test" they can do to target what biochemicals are unbalanced. You’ve already tried Prozac, so that probably isn’t an option, right now. There are many very effective ones out there, but, none of them are correct for everyone. Celexa seems to be the most promising as far as limited side effects. Maybe you could suggest that one to your doctor. He’s probably been bombarded with samples from the pharmaceutical rep, anyway. I’ve tried about eight or ten different ones, over the last two years, and haven’t yet found the one that works best for me. All have seemed to have their complications, even though I start each trial with every hope that this time, I’ve got the *right* one. <G But, this seems to be a lot more to do with the other disorders and dysfunctions that I have than it has to do with effects on the Panic Disorder. You’ll have to try them until you find the one that suits you. Most people hit on the right one within just a few tries, I would bet. (Just from what I’ve read on ASAP and mailing lists. So, you should feel confident that there is help on the way. If you go with Paxil, you will need to start with "micro" doses – very small doses, to avoid triggering anxiety and some of the side effects (Which vary tremendously from person to person!) If you take Paxil for more than about two months (I think that’s right?) you will also have to discontinue it slowly. Zoloft is another good choice — it works wonders for many people. As do Serzone, Effexor, and some of the older tricyclics. AFAIK, all of the antidepressants can be used at the same time as the benzodiazepines, such as Klonopin. But, just a thought — Klonopin is known to induce depression in some anxiety patients, while xanax has an anti-depressant effect all by itself, in others. I am not sure that only .5mg/day of Klonopin would be enough to induce dysphoria or depression, but, if you are susceptible to that particular effect, it can’t be doing the depression much good. At the same time, I am not sure that only .5mg/day of Klonopin is enough to keep the anxiety under control, but, maybe someone else can jump in here. It might be trial and error, but, OTOH, it just might be "trial and win!" in your case. Very best of luck to you!! Elizabeth

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I knew the holidays were going to be rough this year (widowed 4/98) and I also felt that the .5 mg of Klonopin wasn’t going to carry me though  the next month. I was right. I’ve been weepy for the last two weeks, and the panic and anxiety are starting up again, which I have been free of since August! So you see, I need to do something. I’m so sick of this and wish I could propel myself into the future just to be normal again. Tomorrow I’m going to make an appt. to get my meds changed. I think I need the SSRI as my doc kept drilling into me, but Prozac didn’t work well for me. So what has been your experiences with Paxil or Zoloft? I have a friend who said Paxil gave him diahrea -don’t want that! Would a Zoloft/Klonopin mix work? Does that sound reasonable?

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Question:

PS……if you couldn’t tell by the X-File sig.

NIK!  You’re not Gizzie from the X-Files newsgroup, are you?!  I haven’t read that group for a long time, but I sure remember Giz! — Bunny

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NIK!  You’re not Gizzie from the X-Files newsgroup, are you?!  I haven’t read that group for a long time, but I sure remember Giz!

No hon…….haven’t really posted there (although I have lurked).  I just had changed from NikNik7 to MycatGiz cuz I was getting tired of 50 spam e-mails and 1 personal one. Plus I got paranoid that people might find me here and use it against me.  Of course, now that I have made it common knowledge and got over my little incident of paranoia I can say….. NIKNIK7 is also MYCATGIZ. Nik They say, "she’s crazy as anyone can be" That’s what they say, they say of me…….Sheryl Crow "On the Outside"

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Gee, can you say…….Frivolous Lawsuits. I’m not sure, let me try… Frivvawassa roosuts.

You’re singing backup for Baba Wawa these days? — Bunny

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Did I hear you say law suit?  Don’t just stand by and do nothing about it.  You know what it takes for evil to prosper … oh, give me a break!  I went thru it too but I hardly think it warrants a friggin lawsuit. Gee, can you say…….Frivolous Lawsuits. Nik

o.k., granted this *would* be a frivolous lawsuit, imho… but just barely.  i don’t know how bad your withdrawal was, but with mine had i had a steady job at the time (i was a student, and still am, actually) i would have missed about a week’s worth of work…and i like to think of myself as pretty hardy.   anyway, comisseration to any who have had to deal with coming off effexor. not anything i’d ever want to do again…i actually still have the occasional side effect (did something get permenantly fucked in my brain?) even though i’ve been off the stuff for over 2 years.  fun, fun, fun. -m.

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PS……if you couldn’t tell by the X-File sig. Hope it isn’t too long for you Mark…..I tried to keep it short just for you but am thinking of adding the entire lyrics to Stairway to Heaven and the 13 think? Nik They say, "she’s crazy as anyone can be" That’s what they say, they say of me…….Sheryl Crow "On the Outside"

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Hey, Nik, you’re not "niknik" of old, are you?

Nik They say, "she’s crazy as anyone can be" That’s what they say, they say of me…….Sheryl Crow "On the Outside"

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Did I hear you say law suit?  Don’t just stand by and do nothing about it.  You know what it takes for evil to prosper …

oh, give me a break!  I went thru it too but I hardly think it warrants a friggin lawsuit. Gee, can you say…….Frivolous Lawsuits. Nik They say, "she’s crazy as anyone can be" That’s what they say, they say of me…….Sheryl Crow "On the Outside"

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I could go on and on about the interesting and and accute withdrawal symptoms I have been experiencing, but if you are taking Effexor, or thinking about it you should try to search AltaVista for "effexor withrdrawal" and look at the nearly 200,000 hits that come up.  No you won’t find any warning listed with your prescription. Most of the doctors who prescibe this stuff don’t know about this side effect.   Did I hear you say law suit?  Don’t just stand by and do nothing about it.  You know what it takes for evil to prosper … These statements are my personal opinions, and should not be considered medical advice or a call for any illegal or improper actions.

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Don’t start taking this drug, you will be *sorry* when you stop.

It isn’t like that for most people that take the drug, for most it has very few side effects and withdrawal only has minor ones if any.  The three weeks of suffering you will go through are not worth it.

I had a lot more than three weeks. I had trouble all the while I took it and then coming off I had to go so slow that it took eight weeks just to get off it and some of the side effects persisted for six more weeks after that. Still though, for a lot of people Effexor is an effective drug with few side effects. I think that the difference in people’s reactions to it may indicate differing etiologies or pathologies or both for clinical depression. — bev . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . http://members.tripod.com/~Veb

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Don’t start taking this drug, you will be *sorry* when you stop.  The three weeks of suffering you will go through are not worth it.  Find and ask someone better informed that the doctor who gave you this idea.

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Don’t start taking this drug, you will be *sorry* when you stop.  The three weeks of suffering you will go through are not worth it.  Find and ask someone better informed that the doctor who gave you this idea.

I didn’t have any joy going thru the withdrawal of Effexor however I would hardly say I regret being on it for 2 1/2 years.  It *did* work and the only thing I told my pdoc was that I wished I had known how bad the withdrawal was….something he didn’t know of yet, either. If Effexor works for you or your doc thinks it might…don’t judge the medication just because of what it is like to go off of it.  Some people may be fortunate enough to find it works for them and even if for a couple years….isn’t that better than being depressed for a couple more years….even if it mean a couple months of being uncomfortable? Nik They say, "she’s crazy as anyone can be" That’s what they say, they say of me…….Sheryl Crow "On the Outside"

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Effexor is a mood elevator. When you go off this drug,

I got dangerous side effects while on the drug. Hell, we even increased the dose after they started; thought it had more to do with a situational problem than internal workings of the neural system. The side effects worsened during withdrawal but were present before withdrawal. — bev . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . http://members.tripod.com/~Veb

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Some questions: How much does Effexor cost in California if you have to buy it yourself?

I paid $80.95 for one months supply of Effxor ER  150 mG at a store called "The Medicine Shoppe" in California.  Prices vary, call around to different stores. Welcome to California, the land of fruits, nuts, and flakes. Charles

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I have very mixed feelings about Effexor…it was very helpful to me while on it, but insurance problems prevented me from continuing on the medication, and not having anything to fall back on I had to quit taking it. I did this in a phased withdrawl but it was still very difficult. I would only recomenned Effexor if a person knows that they will be covered by insurance and will always have access to it. Otherwise go with something that is cheaper (it’s VERY expensive) and you know you can get with no problem.

Oh dear. Effexor has been an absolute life-saver for me (literally).  In the UK, we pay the same whatever our medication, so that’s okay.  But I’m now moving to the US (getting married), and I’ve no idea what my insurance situation will be.  I can get 3 months worth of Effexor from my GP to take with me.  I am sure I can safely halve my dose and make that last for 6 months.  But I don’t know what I’ll do then. Some questions: How much does Effexor cost in California if you have to buy it yourself? Does anyone by any chance have an insurance company they can recommend, who will cover ADs? Has anyone mixed Effexor with any herbal ADs? Christine  Christine Daae on the Web   http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/~cdaae/

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                             Effexor withdrawal Hello there.  You guys talk a lot about effexor and withdrawal but provide few details, and I am CURIOUS… Could you please enlighten me? Thanks

Sorry…several of us have been through it and you forget there are others here whom are unfamiliar with the drug. Effexor is a mood elevator. When you go off this drug, and this is especially true if it happens suddenly (though in a phased withdrawl bad things can happen too), you can drop into some very frightening and VERY dangerous depression. If you have already had problems with suicidal thoughts they come back with a vengeance, and in my case I spent entire days either weeping or unable to do anything apart from lie in bed and feel terrorized. I have very mixed feelings about Effexor…it was very helpful to me while on it, but insurance problems prevented me from continuing on the medication, and not having anything to fall back on I had to quit taking it. I did this in a phased withdrawl but it was still very difficult. I would only recomenned Effexor if a person knows that they will be covered by insurance and will always have access to it. Otherwise go with something that is cheaper (it’s VERY expensive) and you know you can get with no problem. Jeff (Drop the x to e-mail)

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