Question:

Sorry to dissapoint you, but the thirst is not from drinking and sixpack doesn’t refer to beer…

Response:

Yes,I am expiriencing that also,but not enough to drink four gallons.I am taking singulair,albuterol,prednisone,Claritin,and Vanceril.

Jamie, It could possibly be from the Prednisone.  Prednisone tends to make you retain water.  I also drink a lot of fluids.  Four gallons of water in a day as the other person stated is a massive amount, but I do consume more than most people. Chrystal

Response:

That is a good suggestion, what intially had thought of,  but I went to the doctor a month ago and had a blood work and a urine sample to check everything out because I was and still am having problems with muscle cramps/spasms. Everything came back normal except for a slighty high level of creatine in my body.  Any other ideas?

I had a big problem with dehydration before I was diagnosed with asthma.  It turns out that untreated (or undertreated) airways inflammation caused you to lose water through respiration at a much greater rate. When I got the asthma under control the dehydration went away. "Usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea — massive, diffucult to redirect, aew-inspiring, entertaining, and a source of mind boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it." Gene Spafford 1992

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Have you been tested for diabetes?  If not, you should be.  Also, it’s true that a person can die from drinking too much of anything, including water. It takes a large amount to kill a person, but it’s possible.  See your doctor before it’s too late.  Chew some gum.  That might help until you have time to get an appointment.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Has anyone had any problems with extreme thirst while taking asthma medications?  There are days where I have literally drank over four gallons of water and still felt extremely thirsty.  I take serevent, flovent, singulair, and was just recently finished a 10 day course of Prednisone.  Any info would be helpful. Thanks.

Response:

Has anyone had any problems with extreme thirst while taking asthma medications?  There are days where I have literally drank over four gallons of water and still felt extremely thirsty.  I take serevent, flovent, singulair, and was just recently finished a 10 day course of Prednisone.  Any info would be helpful.   Thanks.

Response:

Has anyone had any problems with extreme thirst while taking asthma medications?  There are days where I have literally drank over four gallons of water and still felt extremely thirsty.  I take serevent, flovent, singulair, and was just recently finished a 10 day course of Prednisone.  Any info would be helpful.  

Four gallons is an enormous quantity of liquid for any human to consume in a 24 hour period… could an explanation possibly be associated with your screen name… maybe change it to <iP4gals? <G Sheldon On a recent Night Court rerun, Judge Harry Stone had a wonderful line: "I try to keep an open mind, but not so open that my brains fall out."

Response:

Excessive thirst and frequent urination are common symptoms of diabetes.  I suggest you talk with your doctor about this possibility. -Aleta – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Has anyone had any problems with extreme thirst while taking asthma medications?  There are days where I have literally drank over four gallons of water and still felt extremely thirsty.  I take serevent, flovent, singulair, and was just recently finished a 10 day course of Prednisone.  Any info would be helpful. Thanks.

Response:

That is a good suggestion, what intially had thought of,  but I went to the doctor a month ago and had a blood work and a urine sample to check everything out because I was and still am having problems with muscle cramps/spasms. Everything came back normal except for a slighty high level of creatine in my body.  Any other ideas?

Response:

Question:

I am trying to find a way to get Pulmicort. My doctor gave me a sample of about two weeks’ worth. She also gave a prescription for some. I took this to the local CVS and their response, after a day of trying to order it, was that the manufacturer does not supply. Should I try a different chain of pharmacy’s and hope that their response is different or is there something I should know about? Suggestions appreciated. -j "He’s more machine now than man, twisted and evil." –Ben Kenobi, a long time ago.

Response:

I am trying to find a way to get Pulmicort. My doctor gave me a sample of about two weeks’ worth. She also gave a prescription for some. I took this to the local CVS and their response, after a day of trying to order it, was that the manufacturer does not supply. Should I try a different chain of pharmacy’s and hope that their response is different or is there something I should know about? Suggestions appreciated.

I ge it at Eckerd without a problem. Good Luck, Jeff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – -j "He’s more machine now than man, twisted and evil." –Ben Kenobi, a long time ago.

Response:

I ge it at Eckerd without a problem.

Thanks. I have since contact the doctor again and had the prescription called through at the local Eckerd without an apparent problem. Maybe CVS is just being silly. -j "He’s more machine now than man, twisted and evil." –Ben Kenobi, a long time ago.

Response:

I checked the Walgreen’s website and they have it.  I know CVS and drugstore.com don’t (or don’t list it if it is available). – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am trying to find a way to get Pulmicort. My doctor gave me a sample of about two weeks’ worth. She also gave a prescription for some. I took this to the local CVS and their response, after a day of trying to order it, was that the manufacturer does not supply. Should I try a different chain of pharmacy’s and hope that their response is different or is there something I should know about? Suggestions appreciated. -j "He’s more machine now than man, twisted and evil." –Ben Kenobi, a long time ago.

Response:

Should I try a different chain of pharmacy’s and hope that their response is different or is there something I should know about? Suggestions appreciated.

I just picked up a refill from a local independent pharmacy on the way home from work. "Keep looking below surface appearances. Don’t shrink from doing so (just) because you might not like what you find."    General Colin Powell

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I thought that Pulmicort was supposed to be available by now in the US.  I have the prescription from the Dr. and now that my son’s full size sample is fast running out, no pharmacy has it yet, but they have all attended the seminar for learning how to dispense it and provide instructions to the patient.  They are all still waiting.  Does anyone know what happened with the availability?  I can get another from the Dr. in the meantime but I’m just curious… Mary-Ellen

I think another responder mention Jan 28 availability in US. I don’t know what’s causing the delay. Here is a link to the US Pulmicort Turbuhaler site (Astra): http://www.pltbhinfo.com/ Pulmicort DPI

Response:

Hi, I was in touch with the Pharmacy before the holidays and was told that the FDA had forced a reformulation of the drug. She said that the drug should be available on Jan 28,1998. Hope this helps. — Regards and God Speed, Gary W. Sandvik

:   : I thought that Pulmicort was supposed to be available by now in the US.  I have : the prescription from the Dr. and now that my son’s full size sample is fast : running out, no pharmacy has it yet, but they have all attended the seminar for : learning how to dispense it and provide instructions to the patient. They are : all still waiting.  Does anyone know what happened with the availability?  I : can get another from the Dr. in the meantime but I’m just curious… : Mary-Ellen : : I think another responder mention Jan 28 availability in US. : I don’t know what’s causing the delay. : : Here is a link to the US Pulmicort Turbuhaler site (Astra): : http://www.pltbhinfo.com/ Pulmicort DPI :

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : : I thought that Pulmicort was supposed to be available by now in the US.  I have : the prescription from the Dr. and now that my son’s full size sample is fast : running out, no pharmacy has it yet, but they have all attended the seminar for : learning how to dispense it and provide instructions to the patient. They are : all still waiting.  Does anyone know what happened with the availability?  I : can get another from the Dr. in the meantime but I’m just curious… : Mary-Ellen : : I think another responder mention Jan 28 availability in US. : I don’t know what’s causing the delay. : : Here is a link to the US Pulmicort Turbuhaler site (Astra): : http://www.pltbhinfo.com/ Pulmicort DPI :

I live in Canada and started using Pulmicort 5 years ago.  It has truly changed the way I live with my asthma.  I have had asthma since 1976 and had tried almost everything on the market. I started using Pulmicort and Rhinocort (for sinusitus and nasal polyps) and I feel like a new person. I hope the FDA will approve this terrific product for your use in the U.S.  (No, I don’t work for Astra) Best of luck to you in the new year. Your northern neighbor.

Response:

I thought that Pulmicort was supposed to be available by now in the US.  I have the prescription from the Dr. and now that my son’s full size sample is fast running out, no pharmacy has it yet, but they have all attended the seminar for learning how to dispense it and provide instructions to the patient.  They are all still waiting.  Does anyone know what happened with the availability?  I can get another from the Dr. in the meantime but I’m just curious… Mary-Ellen

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Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Enfilade, Effexor is a big time drug to be on for depression – it is usually used for major depression and even some psychotic disorders.  I understand that you want off of the medication because you feel good now – but remember, that is the medication helping you to feel better and control your depression. If you are wanting to try something that won’t turn you into a zombie, ask your doctor about weaning off of it, while being started on something else. If you are taken off of medication completely and you begin to relapse, you could spiral downward before a new drug takes effect (anti-depressants usually take 3-4 weeks before full effect is reached). The consequesnces of that far outweight the benefits of being "drug-free." Also, a relapse is usually worse once being taken off of a medication because of the major changes in the chemicals in your brain… Please be careful I know there is a stigma attached to being on medication for depression, but it is an illness…. Really think of the benefits of the medication vesus the possible results of being off of the medication. Talk to your doc first about switching to a different kind, one that still helps your symptoms, but with less side effects. Good luck

This is wonderful advice, judging from my experience with clinically’ depressed loved ones. Have your doctor help you find a drug that does not interefere with your quality of life–but remember that depression kills. It is a terrible, debilitating disease.

Response:

I have to second this.  These days with managed care, a lot of antidepressants are prescribed by general physicians who frankly don’t have the right pharmocological background.

Yes. And they are prescribing them to people without clinical illness, in many cases. Sometimes I think half the people on antidepressants are not clinically depressed, they just want to "feel better." I think this is dangerous. I’ve been very lucky– in a sense– because my depressions have always been under a psychiatrist’s treatment.  I’m not saying this is true of everyone, but with my history, and my genetics, I have a very strong inclination towards depression.  I would no more try to "tough" out a depression without medication than I would refuse insulin if I were diabetic. I have had the experience of withdrawing off a very tough drug (nardil), and while I never hope to repeat such a thing, it was incredibly important that I do it.  I am now stable on a low dose of Wellbutrin, which seems to have little/no side effects for me.

Wellbutrin has been a wonder drug for a friend of mine. So few side effects for her.

Response:

That red haze is starting to creep back a little, since the doc didn’t in any way suggest that this was a "for the rest of my life" kind of thing until just now.  I feel like I’ve gotten suckered into this situation, and that pisses me off. –Enfilade

I was on Effexor for about three years, and went off it for much the same reasons you mentioned. I’ve been off antidepresants for a couple years now, but it’s getting to be time to start again. Going to have to visit the doc to get a prescription for something other than Effexor. If you do it carefully, with the doc monitoring you closely, I’d sure think it ought to be possible to wean yourself off the Effexor until you can start with something else. Of course if you don’t have health insurance the "close monitoring" thing might be a problem too. We’ll be sending our best purrs that you are able to find a way to make the transition off of Effexor.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This is my first vent here… I want to get off the Effexor I’ve been taking for depression for almost a year now.  I’ve been more stable than DP’s seen me to be in the past 8 years, in the last 6 months.  Unfortunately, in those last 6 months I also sleep about 12 hours a day, and occasionally I get this "Stoned" sensation where stuff gets blurry and I have trouble thinking of words or figuring out just where I am…I’ll wander and then snap out of my reverie like, two hours later, wondering where the time went. The stuff’s expensive as hell, I have no drug coverage, and there’s no way I can do a master’s thesis in September if I’m sleeping more than I’m awake. If I want back on flight operations, I have to lose the drugs that could affect my ability to control an aircraft. So today I’m at the doctor’s and he tells me that if I quit the stuff, I’m almost guaranteed to relapse. DP’s afraid I will, sometime when no one’s around to stop me from cutting my throat–or someone else’s. I’m in my 20s.  I don’t want to be on this crap for the rest of my life.  Hell, the concept of being stuck on drugs is one of the big reasons I left my depression untreated until I became a menace to people around me as well as myself.  I think I know the symptoms well enough–if I start inflicting injury on myself and viewing life through a red rage haze, it’s time to go back on the pills.  I was depressed, I think, since about age 4 or so, but during that time I only had two severe (ie, want-to-kill-myself) episodes, and those 8 years apart.  The minor rounds I could handle without chemical interference.  At that rate, it’d be 2013 before I needed pills again. That’s a lot of money and a lot of drug-free years. That red haze is starting to creep back a little, since the doc didn’t in any way suggest that this was a "for the rest of my life" kind of thing until just now.  I feel like I’ve gotten suckered into this situation, and that pisses me off. –Enfilade

Over the years, I worked my way through just about all the prescription drugs for depression. At this time, I’ve been on Venlafaxine for several years now; according to my shrink, I’ll never develop an "immunity" to it, the way I gradually did to each other. Ask your doctor to consider it.

Response:

If you do it carefully, with the doc monitoring you closely, I’d sure think it ought to be possible to wean yourself off the Effexor until you can start with something else. Of course if you don’t have health insurance the "close monitoring" thing might be a problem too. We’ll be sending our best purrs that you are able to find a way to make the transition off of Effexor.

Howdy folks! Thanks for all your comments.  I really appreciate it. "Close monitoring’ is easy for me because DP is a medical student. Also, in Canada, visiting the doctor is free.  The only thing I have to pay for is the pills. Now, with DP being a medical student, he and I have gone ’round on this one…while he thinks I should be on /something/, he also is willing to live by my decision, if a bit nervously.  At first he insisted that Effexor couldn’t possibly make me sleepy because his medical journals say it causes insomnia; however, today he met up with a neurophysician friend, who said that there are instances of that side effect on record, so NA NAAAA *sticks out tongue* *Serves you right to believe the studies instead of me PPPPPPTHHH!!!* *ahem* As for side effects, once in a snowstorm I did without for three days and aside from a bit of dizziness (I’ve had far worse from the flu) I was fine.  What I don’t like is, the doc says the stuff isn’t addictive, and yet if I’m not supposed to go off it EVER, I might as /well/ be addicted. What am I on it for?  Well, for the most part, I have my stuff pretty well together.  For 25 years I’d hit "lows", which never lasted more than about 6 hours.  I’d spend those days in my room, watching videos if I could concentrate and lying around if I couldn’t, waiting for the "weather to pass."  I could handle this. My first bad time hit when I started feeling abandoned by my friends, broke up with my boyfriend, had health issues, my grades slipped a bit, and I and got kicked out of the house by my mom for taking a spare to address the grades thing.  I was living on people’s couches and/or the public airport, and wanted a lot of support from my friends that they didn’t or couldnt or didn’t know to give (I’m an independent SOB who didn’t know how to ask for help, so it wasn’t entirely their fault.) I was 17, had done all I wanted to do in my life, and didn’t know how I was going to keep myself fed and sheltered until I got to university, or if it wasn’t maybe ready for me to call my life "finished" since I’d met all my goals. My more recent one involved 7 months of looking for work when my EI ran out and I took a job at the mall.  Another 2 months with a jealous co-worker actively trying to get me fired, a position that involved coercive selling despite what I was told at my interview, more unsuccessful job interviews, and me with a master’s degree going apesh!t from boredom, while DPs life was at its high point and he was celebrating being here in this city while I wanted to grab my duffel bag and go back to living in cars and airports if it’d get me out of here. It takes some pretty bad sh!t to set me off…so while I /am/ a little, er, short-fused at those times, normal life doesn’t evoke depression in me.  I’m hopefully in a master’s program full time next year–academia is a stabilizing lifestyle for me.  Better to do another master’s than end up in the nutty house.  Anyway, I think my life will be pretty stable then–DP is such a calming influence on me.  Sometimes I feel like he’s my nurse.  Of course, on his part, he sometimes tends to be quite naive and carefree/careless, and needs me watching his back.  "Just because YOU wouldn’t steal a car doesn’t mean someone else wouldn’t…so LOCK THE CAR." –Fil

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Effexor isn’t the only antidepressant out there, and your doc is greatly remiss in not considering exploring other meds. There are ADs that don’t cause hypersomnia, and which might be less expensive than Effexor. The problem with Effexor is that quitting cold is not an option; it has to be done gradually and incrementally. Quitting all at once produces an extremely undesirable sensation known as "brain spins," "brain shivers," "brain surges," and other unsavory encephalitic phrases. One person described it to me as feeling like your brain is spinning inside your head. Alternatives are out there, and you deserve to have the chance to explore them. I can only add to what everyone else has said.  AD medication is not yet totally understood.  As sufferers, we have to accept that.  After all, we all would like a perfect world, but it just isn’t there yet.  The best thing is to find a practitioner who is willing to try different medication until the benefit outways the side-effects. Don’t forget you need a few weeks to wean off the old drug, and a few weeks for the new one to start to work properly.  It took me a year or two of trying several different drugs until we found one that has almost no side-effects and works really well.

Absolute agreement. The withdrawal effects, and also trying to figure out if the new drug is starting to work, takes time. In some cases, it’s not just clearing confusion. In the case of the MAO inhibitors, not letting another drug clear (about 2 weeks) can kill you. MAO inhibitors are effective, but they have so many drug and food interactions — potentially lethal ones — that they are avoided. A drug that won’t let you have chocolate, chianti, or aged cheese? Perish the thought!   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If this sounds like a long time, it’s not really.  Almost the first drug you try will help with the AD and you will feel better; from there it’s just a matter of fine-tuning the process so that the side-effects are reduced.  Some people will put up with a bit of sleeplessness, others loss of libido, others jitterness.  You just need to find a drug whose side-effects are acceptable to you. Good luck, and don’t give up, because it *does* help in the long run.  I am feeling fine with my drugs and I’ve almost *no* side-effects.

Response:

On 2005-03-09, Karen penned: Well, I’ll tell you what. I work below a doctor’s office, and EVERY (every single  solitary) day, I watch pharmaceutical reps tote in expensive (and I do mean from the BEST places in town) lunches for everyone. It is absolutely *revolting* to see this kind of "bribing" taking place every day. And you should see the vehicles the reps arrive in. No matter how much pharmaceutical companies cry "but it is SOOOOO expensive to research these very necessary drugs" whenever ever drug prices are brought up, I don’t believe it. I believe their marketing budget far outweighs their research. And how many pens and chairs (I kid you not, I saw two stadium chairs stamped with a huge Nexium logo woven right in at a garage sale this summer) and note pads do you see lying around? Makes me just want to urp.

My SIL worked as a biologist for a major pharmaceutical company and said basically the same thing. — monique, who spoils Oscar unmercifully pictures: http://www.bounceswoosh.org/rpca

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What gets to me about the antidepressant drug business is that it’s very well known that some drugs will work for some people while others will work better for other people. But, the only way to find out which one’s right for you is the brute force approach – try ‘em all until you find one that works for you. There’s very little research that examines which antidepressants work best for which people out in the community and why.   <cynic After all, drug manufacturers are probably doing quite well out of the brute force approach… it wouldn’t be in THEIR best interests to sponsor research that might find a better way. would it? </cynic Actually, there is a lot of research, or at least experience that gets shared among the psychiatrists that really want the information.  They may be specialists in psychopharmacology. Sometimes, the extra training there can get them networking with the right people. I remember a scathing editorial on Medscape.com by a pediatric psychopharmacologist, who was furious at all too many psychiatrists who overprescribe the newer drugs. Why?  Not studying?  Too much influence by pharmaceutical companies? Now, pharmacology has always been one of my interests. I’ve found a surprising number of doctors that don’t know the biochemistry of the multiple classes of drugs useful in different kinds of depression and with different patients, including:    Post-synaptic nonselective of ST and NE, operating on the    catechol-O-methyl-transferase enzyme system    Post-synaptic nonselective of ST and NE, operating on the    monoamine oxidase enzyme system    Pre-synaptic selective ST reuptake inhibitors    "Atypical" pre-synaptic ST reuptake inhibitors    Pre-synaptic nonselective ST/NE reuptake inhibitors    Pre-synaptic selective NE reuptake inhibitors    Anticonvulsants    Lithium    Stimulant amines like Ritalin    Strattera … need I go on?  Something that often gets missed is a patient with mixed anxiety and depression, who may need an anxiolytic as well as an antidepressant. There are also drugs that can help minimize the side effects of some of the psychotropics, such as beta-blockers to minimize the hand tremor common with the anticonvulsant valproate. OK, I’m only a number-cruncher – I freely admit that I know nothing about pharmacology and I’m just spouting speculation. But it does seem to me that an awful lot of published drug studies don’t reflect how medications are really used in the community as opposed to what happens in carefully controlled clinical trials.

Precisely. In the US, the manufacturer applies to the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) with a New Drug Application (NDA) seeking licensing of a new drug. The FDA and the manufacturer agreee on the clinical trials that have been done [1] or need to be done, and, when there is sufficient information, an approval officer or panel decides whether to authorize a license. [1] Earlier in the process, a manufacturer, or independent researcher,     can apply for an Investigational New Drug (IND) application, which     gives the authority to use it in clinical trials.  INDs are not     available by prescription, although there is a "compassionate use"     procedure by which a clinician can request a supply of the     experimental drug for a patient in whom all other therapies have     failed. Each NDA is for a specific list of "indications", or conditions the manufacturer asserts the drug will treat.  Physicians are permitted to prescribe drugs for "off-label" indications not in the manufacturers’ literature. Part of the time, off-label prescribing can be a good way to use the knowledge of experienced physicians, especially for rarer conditions where the manufacturer didn’t want to pay for clinical trials for the other indication. An unfortunate other part of the time, however, we have seen pharmaceutical company representatives pushing off-label indications to increase sales, with no data backing it up. Incidentally, I’m not opposed to all pharmaceutical representatives, often called "detail men".  Some are extremely knowledgeable, help independent researchers and clinicians meet one another, and act as a channel between practicing physicians and the company research department. Others have the ethics of used car salesmen — and that’s increasingly common in their profit-driven upper management. It’s sad to remember that the accepted term for the US prescription drug manufacturers was the "ethical pharmaceutical industry."  At one time, many of the manufacturers really did have a commitment to medicine over short-term profit. In Australia (don’t know whether things are different in the USA) hardly anyone would be able to get their antidepressants prescribed by a psychiatrist – there are just so few of them that even if you’re able to pay privately, the waiting list for an appointment will be months long. You really have to be so ill that you’re a danger to other people (a danger to yourself isn’t enough) to be able to see a psychiatrist quickly. So, most people have to go to a GP to get a prescription, and I guess the shared experience of specialist psychiatrists on choosing an antidepressant isn’t reaching them. Then again, the shrinks are probably too darned overworked to publish what they know…

Quite frankly, then, I’ll put in a suggestion to the Australian medical authorities that they might do well to use computer assistance from one of my research areas: expert systems for prescribing. While my work has more been in cardiology and infectious disease, it’s quite possible to construct a "consultant in a box" that can help a primary physician select drugs and find alternatives. Unfortunately, there is an overall problem of specialist knowledge reaching GPs. In the US, there are several annual studies that show poor dissemination of knowledge. For example, cardiologists (a subspecialty of internal medicine, with their own subspecialties beyond that) usually know what drugs have been found good and bad in treating heart attack or congestive heart failures. Some of the effective drugs are NOT intuitive. Internists don’t have as high a knowledge of the correct drugs. The percentage of primary care physicians that know the most up-to-date therapies tends to be even lower. I must say that cuddling a cat is one of the best ways I’ve found to deal with depression in the short term. I personally find a big, heavy one with long whiskers and loud purrs most effective.

Absolutely.  Purring time should be reimbursable under all insurance plans!

Response:

This is my first vent here… I want to get off the Effexor I’ve been taking for depression for almost a year now.  I’ve been more stable than DP’s seen me to be in the past 8 years, in the last 6 months.  Unfortunately, in those last 6 months I also sleep about 12 hours a day, and occasionally I get this "Stoned" sensation where stuff gets blurry and I have trouble thinking of words or figuring out just where I am…I’ll wander and then snap out of my reverie like, two hours later, wondering where the time went. The stuff’s expensive as hell, I have no drug coverage, and there’s no way I can do a master’s thesis in September if I’m sleeping more than I’m awake. If I want back on flight operations, I have to lose the drugs that could affect my ability to control an aircraft. So today I’m at the doctor’s and he tells me that if I quit the stuff, I’m almost guaranteed to relapse. DP’s afraid I will, sometime when no one’s around to stop me from cutting my throat–or someone else’s. I’m in my 20s.  I don’t want to be on this crap for the rest of my life.  Hell, the concept of being stuck on drugs is one of the big reasons I left my depression untreated until I became a menace to people around me as well as myself.  I think I know the symptoms well enough–if I start inflicting injury on myself and viewing life through a red rage haze, it’s time to go back on the pills.  I was depressed, I think, since about age 4 or so, but during that time I only had two severe (ie, want-to-kill-myself) episodes, and those 8 years apart.  The minor rounds I could handle without chemical interference.  At that rate, it’d be 2013 before I needed pills again.  That’s a lot of money and a lot of drug-free years. That red haze is starting to creep back a little, since the doc didn’t in any way suggest that this was a "for the rest of my life" kind of thing until just now.  I feel like I’ve gotten suckered into this situation, and that pisses me off. –Enfilade

Response:

That red haze is starting to creep back a little, since the doc didn’t in any way suggest that this was a "for the rest of my life" kind of thing until just now.  I feel like I’ve gotten suckered into this situation, and that pisses me off. –Enfilade

Aw Fil, I know *EXACTLY* how you feel.  My doctor put me on Effexor because it’s supposed to help with the pain of Fibromyalgia.  Not *ONCE* did he tell me that the withdrawals from this drug are worse than the withdrawals from heroine – and last longer.  Please, *PLEASE*, don’t quit taking this drug cold turkey (that’s what I did because my doctor wouldn’t help me get off them in a gradual way).  I ended up in the emergency room and found out later that I could have killed myself by doing this. My daughter was also put on Effexor, but for depression.  She wanted to get off of them too, but couldn’t, not even with a gradual withdrawal (as soon as she missed one dose she would have horrible, severe flu-like symptoms. Some other withdrawal symptoms of Effexor that I had are feeling like I was being electrocuted with pulsing shock like feelings all through my body, nausea, heart palpitations, cold sweats, insomnia, dizziness, headaches, shakes, going into fugue states and not remembering where I was or what I was doing (really scary when you’re driving), crying jags and screaming rages. There is supposedly a class-action lawsuit against Wyeth-Ayerst Labs because they knew all about these symptoms but still pushed this drug for all kinds or medical problems besides depression.  There are newsgroup and chat rooms dedicated to nothing but the horrible side effects and withdrawal symptoms of this drug. Here is the result of a google search on Effexor withdrawal symptoms: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=effexor+withdrawals. Again, please be very careful how you go about getting off this drug, if you decide to.  I’ve heard that ClaritinD helps somewhat with the withdrawals. Hugs, CatNipped

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Nipped, That is one of the symptoms I had when I first stepped down the dosage – major flu like symptoms, and extremely exhausted. I am now over that, but it took almost a month.  My dr. said it was a Fibromyalgia flare, and it was because the Effexor had been controlling the symptoms and it wasn’t any more. Honestly, I felt WORSE after this drug than I ever did before as far as the fibro went. It is like it exacerbated it, rather than controlling it. Yeah, for me too.  I really didn’t feel any diminishment of pain from the fibro while I was on the Effexor.  It *did* help the depression that was caused by the fibro (finding out that you’re going to be in constant pain for the rest of your life can be quite depressing).  And you’re right, the pain during withdrawals was definitely worse than the pain I had before I started taking it.  I really don’t know why they haven’t taken this drug off the market – there’s beeen thousands of complaints to the FDA about it.  I think there’s been some *marjor* payoffs regarding this golden goose of the drug company that manufactures it.

It really does work for some people – me for one. When I started it I felt like I’d been woken up after years asleep. I’m not good at describing this sort of thing, but on this drug I actually started to feel like I could DO something – make choices and take actions – that might have some sort of effect on my life. I’d been through the usual list of other antidepressants – some didn’t work at all, some worked for a while, one worked well but I had an allergic reaction to it. I’m down to a really low dose now, but am not keen to stop it altogether in case I slide back into that old black hole again. So I can say it’s been good for me, but obviously it’s not good for everyone and probably is dangerous for some. What gets to me about the antidepressant drug business is that it’s very well known that some drugs will work for some people while others will work better for other people. But, the only way to find out which one’s right for you is the brute force approach – try ‘em all until you find one that works for you. There’s very little research that examines which antidepressants work best for which people out in the community and why.    <cynic After all, drug manufacturers are probably doing quite well out of the brute force approach… it wouldn’t be in THEIR best interests to sponsor research that might find a better way. would it? </cynic

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Hi Enfilade, Just want to let you know I wrote you a private email on this subject.  Let me know if you don’t get it. regards, Christine

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This is my first vent here… I want to get off the Effexor I’ve been taking for depression for almost a year now.  I’ve been more stable than DP’s seen me to be in the past 8 years, in the last 6 months.  Unfortunately, in those last 6 months I also sleep about 12 hours a day, and occasionally I get this "Stoned" sensation where stuff gets blurry and I have trouble thinking of words or figuring out just where I am…I’ll wander and then snap out of my reverie like, two hours later, wondering where the time went. The stuff’s expensive as hell, I have no drug coverage, and there’s no way I can do a master’s thesis in September if I’m sleeping more than I’m awake. If I want back on flight operations, I have to lose the drugs that could affect my ability to control an aircraft. So today I’m at the doctor’s and he tells me that if I quit the stuff, I’m almost guaranteed to relapse. DP’s afraid I will, sometime when no one’s around to stop me from cutting my throat–or someone else’s. I’m in my 20s.  I don’t want to be on this crap for the rest of my life.  Hell, the concept of being stuck on drugs is one of the big reasons I left my depression untreated until I became a menace to people around me as well as myself.  I think I know the symptoms well enough–if I start inflicting injury on myself and viewing life through a red rage haze, it’s time to go back on the pills.  I was depressed, I think, since about age 4 or so, but during that time I only had two severe (ie, want-to-kill-myself) episodes, and those 8 years apart.  The minor rounds I could handle without chemical interference.  At that rate, it’d be 2013 before I needed pills again.  That’s a lot of money and a lot of drug-free years. That red haze is starting to creep back a little, since the doc didn’t in any way suggest that this was a "for the rest of my life" kind of thing until just now.  I feel like I’ve gotten suckered into this situation, and that pisses me off. –Enfilade

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Is there a different antidepressant, with fewer side effects, that your doctor can help you switch over to? Nobody wants to be on meds for the long haul. That goes double for a med that’s causing side effects that are as disruptive to daily living as the problem the medicine is supposed to be relieving. But some people, including me, would be in a permanent state of depression without meds. In my case, even what I USED to think of as a normal state was a low-level state of depression, and I’ve wavered between that and flat-out clinical depression since I was 10. (Which means I’ve been dealing with this for over 30 years.) But it was being downsized a few years ago that brought on a really, REALLY severe and unrelenting case of depression. Finally, I went to the doctor because the symptoms were not only debilitating, they were showing no signs of lifting. The prescription I’m on right now is Celexa (citalopram), and it has helped a lot. It also doesn’t have the side effects you were describing. Maybe you can discuss switching over to that or to a different prescription that will help the depression, minus the side effects you’re getting from the Effexor. My husband is on thyroid medication, permanently, because his thyroid doesn’t produce enough hormone on its own. Friends and relatives of mine take insulin or pills to regulate diabetes, since their bodies don’t produce enough insulin. And there’s no difference between their permanent need for meds, and the fact that my body needs some help getting the serotonin level right. There’s no shame in needing any of those meds, or any other prescription, not even if it’s necessary over the long haul. It’s not fun AT ALL to have to deal with these issues. ( But see if you can work with your doctor to change to a different medication. And if this doc won’t work with you on that, it’s time for a second opinion. Keep us posted. Donna

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Effexor isn’t the only antidepressant out there, and your doc is greatly remiss in not considering exploring other meds. There are ADs that don’t cause hypersomnia, and which might be less expensive than Effexor. The problem with Effexor is that quitting cold is not an option; it has to be done gradually and incrementally. Quitting all at once produces an extremely undesirable sensation known as "brain spins," "brain shivers," "brain surges," and other unsavory encephalitic phrases. One person described it to me as feeling like your brain is spinning inside your head. Alternatives are out there, and you deserve to have the chance to explore them.

I can only add to what everyone else has said.  AD medication is not yet totally understood.  As sufferers, we have to accept that.  After all, we all would like a perfect world, but it just isn’t there yet.  The best thing is to find a practitioner who is willing to try different medication until the benefit outways the side-effects. Don’t forget you need a few weeks to wean off the old drug, and a few weeks for the new one to start to work properly.  It took me a year or two of trying several different drugs until we found one that has almost no side-effects and works really well.   If this sounds like a long time, it’s not really.  Almost the first drug you try will help with the AD and you will feel better; from there it’s just a matter of fine-tuning the process so that the side-effects are reduced.  Some people will put up with a bit of sleeplessness, others loss of libido, others jitterness.  You just need to find a drug whose side-effects are acceptable to you. Good luck, and don’t give up, because it *does* help in the long run.  I am feeling fine with my drugs and I’ve almost *no* side-effects.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What gets to me about the antidepressant drug business is that it’s very well known that some drugs will work for some people while others will work better for other people. But, the only way to find out which one’s right for you is the brute force approach – try ‘em all until you find one that works for you. There’s very little research that examines which antidepressants work best for which people out in the community and why.   <cynic After all, drug manufacturers are probably doing quite well out of the brute force approach… it wouldn’t be in THEIR best interests to sponsor research that might find a better way. would it? </cynic Actually, there is a lot of research, or at least experience that gets shared among the psychiatrists that really want the information.  They may be specialists in psychopharmacology. Sometimes, the extra training there can get them networking with the right people. I remember a scathing editorial on Medscape.com by a pediatric psychopharmacologist, who was furious at all too many psychiatrists who overprescribe the newer drugs. Why?  Not studying?  Too much influence by pharmaceutical companies? Now, pharmacology has always been one of my interests. I’ve found a surprising number of doctors that don’t know the biochemistry of the multiple classes of drugs useful in different kinds of depression and with different patients, including:    Post-synaptic nonselective of ST and NE, operating on the    catechol-O-methyl-transferase enzyme system    Post-synaptic nonselective of ST and NE, operating on the    monoamine oxidase enzyme system    Pre-synaptic selective ST reuptake inhibitors    "Atypical" pre-synaptic ST reuptake inhibitors    Pre-synaptic nonselective ST/NE reuptake inhibitors    Pre-synaptic selective NE reuptake inhibitors    Anticonvulsants    Lithium    Stimulant amines like Ritalin    Strattera … need I go on?  Something that often gets missed is a patient with mixed anxiety and depression, who may need an anxiolytic as well as an antidepressant. There are also drugs that can help minimize the side effects of some of the psychotropics, such as beta-blockers to minimize the hand tremor common with the anticonvulsant valproate.

OK, I’m only a number-cruncher – I freely admit that I know nothing about pharmacology and I’m just spouting speculation. But it does seem to me that an awful lot of published drug studies don’t reflect how medications are really used in the community as opposed to what happens in carefully controlled clinical trials. In Australia (don’t know whether things are different in the USA) hardly anyone would be able to get their antidepressants prescribed by a psychiatrist – there are just so few of them that even if you’re able to pay privately, the waiting list for an appointment will be months long. You really have to be so ill that you’re a danger to other people (a danger to yourself isn’t enough) to be able to see a psychiatrist quickly. So, most people have to go to a GP to get a prescription, and I guess the shared experience of specialist psychiatrists on choosing an antidepressant isn’t reaching them. Then again, the shrinks are probably too darned overworked to publish what they know… I must say that cuddling a cat is one of the best ways I’ve found to deal with depression in the short term. I personally find a big, heavy one with long whiskers and loud purrs most effective.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This is my first vent here… I want to get off the Effexor I’ve been taking for depression for almost a year now.  I’ve been more stable than DP’s seen me to be in the past 8 years, in the last 6 months.  Unfortunately, in those last 6 months I also sleep about 12 hours a day, and occasionally I get this "Stoned" sensation where stuff gets blurry and I have trouble thinking of words or figuring out just where I am…I’ll wander and then snap out of my reverie like, two hours later, wondering where the time went. The stuff’s expensive as hell, I have no drug coverage, and there’s no way I can do a master’s thesis in September if I’m sleeping more than I’m awake. If I want back on flight operations, I have to lose the drugs that could affect my ability to control an aircraft. So today I’m at the doctor’s and he tells me that if I quit the stuff, I’m almost guaranteed to relapse. DP’s afraid I will, sometime when no one’s around to stop me from cutting my throat–or someone else’s. I’m in my 20s.  I don’t want to be on this crap for the rest of my life.  Hell, the concept of being stuck on drugs is one of the big reasons I left my depression untreated until I became a menace to people around me as well as myself.  I think I know the symptoms well enough–if I start inflicting injury on myself and viewing life through a red rage haze, it’s time to go back on the pills.  I was depressed, I think, since about age 4 or so, but during that time I only had two severe (ie, want-to-kill-myself) episodes, and those 8 years apart.  The minor rounds I could handle without chemical interference.  At that rate, it’d be 2013 before I needed pills again.  That’s a lot of money and a lot of drug-free years. That red haze is starting to creep back a little, since the doc didn’t in any way suggest that this was a "for the rest of my life" kind of thing until just now.  I feel like I’ve gotten suckered into this situation, and that pisses me off. –Enfilade

Effexor isn’t the only antidepressant out there, and your doc is greatly remiss in not considering exploring other meds. There are ADs that don’t cause hypersomnia, and which might be less expensive than Effexor. The problem with Effexor is that quitting cold is not an option; it has to be done gradually and incrementally. Quitting all at once produces an extremely undesirable sensation known as "brain spins," "brain shivers," "brain surges," and other unsavory encephalitic phrases. One person described it to me as feeling like your brain is spinning inside your head. Alternatives are out there, and you deserve to have the chance to explore them.

Response:

In article – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is there a different antidepressant, with fewer side effects, that your doctor can help you switch over to? Nobody wants to be on meds for the long haul. That goes double for a med that’s causing side effects that are as disruptive to daily living as the problem the medicine is supposed to be relieving. But some people, including me, would be in a permanent state of depression without meds. In my case, even what I USED to think of as a normal state was a low-level state of depression, and I’ve wavered between that and flat-out clinical depression since I was 10. (Which means I’ve been dealing with this for over 30 years.) But it was being downsized a few years ago that brought on a really, REALLY severe and unrelenting case of depression. Finally, I went to the doctor because the symptoms were not only debilitating, they were showing no signs of lifting. The prescription I’m on right now is Celexa (citalopram), and it has helped a lot. It also doesn’t have the side effects you were describing. Maybe you can discuss switching over to that or to a different prescription that will help the depression, minus the side effects you’re getting from the Effexor.

Celexa is in a different family than Effexor. Celexa, along with Paxil and a few others, is considered an "atypical" selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor. I’ve gotten biochemical enough without getting into why these are considered "atypical" with respect to Prozac, Zoloft, etc. Yes, yes, yes. If one psychotropic drug doesn’t work well, there tend to be alternatives, both within the same family and in different families.   For example, I have intolerable dry mouth with the tricyclic antidepressant amitriptyline (Elavil), but not with the closely related nortriptyline (Pamelor). My husband is on thyroid medication, permanently, because his thyroid doesn’t produce enough hormone on its own. Friends and relatives of mine take insulin or pills to regulate diabetes, since their bodies don’t produce enough insulin. And there’s no difference between their permanent need for meds, and the fact that my body needs some help getting the serotonin level right. There’s no shame in needing any of those meds, or any other prescription, not even if it’s necessary over the long haul. It’s not fun AT ALL to have to deal with these issues. ( But see if you can work with your doctor to change to a different medication. And if this doc won’t work with you on that, it’s time for a second opinion.

Exactly. I find more physicians "stuck" with a very few psychotropic drugs than almost any other class of medications. If an infectious disease specialist only wanted to use 2 or 3 classes of antibiotics, they’d be considered candidates for psychotherapy, or at least intensive retraining. Why can’t psychiatrists bother with the alternativews available to them?

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Too many psychiatrists are overly fixated on single drugs or drug classes. They seem to fixate on the newest drugs, rather than older ones that can be quite effective

Well, I’ll tell you what. I work below a doctor’s office, and EVERY (every single  solitary) day, I watch pharmaceutical reps tote in expensive (and I do mean from the BEST places in town) lunches for everyone. It is absolutely *revolting* to see this kind of "bribing" taking place every day. And you should see the vehicles the reps arrive in. No matter how much pharmaceutical companies cry "but it is SOOOOO expensive to research these very necessary drugs" whenever ever drug prices are brought up, I don’t believe it. I believe their marketing budget far outweighs their research. And how many pens and chairs (I kid you not, I saw two stadium chairs stamped with a huge Nexium logo woven right in at a garage sale this summer) and note pads do you see lying around? Makes me just want to urp.

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What gets to me about the antidepressant drug business is that it’s very well known that some drugs will work for some people while others will work better for other people. But, the only way to find out which one’s right for you is the brute force approach – try ‘em all until you find one that works for you. There’s very little research that examines which antidepressants work best for which people out in the community and why.    <cynic After all, drug manufacturers are probably doing quite well out of the brute force approach… it wouldn’t be in THEIR best interests to sponsor research that might find a better way. would it? </cynic

Actually, there is a lot of research, or at least experience that gets shared among the psychiatrists that really want the information.  They may be specialists in psychopharmacology. Sometimes, the extra training there can get them networking with the right people. I remember a scathing editorial on Medscape.com by a pediatric psychopharmacologist, who was furious at all too many psychiatrists who overprescribe the newer drugs. Why?  Not studying?  Too much influence by pharmaceutical companies? Now, pharmacology has always been one of my interests. I’ve found a surprising number of doctors that don’t know the biochemistry of the multiple classes of drugs useful in different kinds of depression and with different patients, including:    Post-synaptic nonselective of ST and NE, operating on the    catechol-O-methyl-transferase enzyme system    Post-synaptic nonselective of ST and NE, operating on the    monoamine oxidase enzyme system    Pre-synaptic selective ST reuptake inhibitors    "Atypical" pre-synaptic ST reuptake inhibitors    Pre-synaptic nonselective ST/NE reuptake inhibitors    Pre-synaptic selective NE reuptake inhibitors    Anticonvulsants    Lithium    Stimulant amines like Ritalin    Strattera … need I go on?  Something that often gets missed is a patient with mixed anxiety and depression, who may need an anxiolytic as well as an antidepressant. There are also drugs that can help minimize the side effects of some of the psychotropics, such as beta-blockers to minimize the hand tremor common with the anticonvulsant valproate.

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(Snip) But some people, including me, would be in a permanent state of depression without meds. In my case, even what I USED to think of as a normal state was a low-level state of depression, and I’ve wavered between that and flat-out clinical depression since I was 10. (Which means I’ve been dealing with this for over 30 years.)

I have to second this.  These days with managed care, a lot of antidepressants are prescribed by general physicians who frankly don’t have the right pharmocological background.  I’ve been very lucky– in a sense– because my depressions have always been under a psychiatrist’s treatment.  I’m not saying this is true of everyone, but with my history, and my genetics, I have a very strong inclination towards depression.  I would no more try to "tough" out a depression without medication than I would refuse insulin if I were diabetic. I have had the experience of withdrawing off a very tough drug (nardil), and while I never hope to repeat such a thing, it was incredibly important that I do it.  I am now stable on a low dose of Wellbutrin, which seems to have little/no side effects for me. Theresa Stinky Pictures: http://community.webshots.com/album/125591586JWEFwh My Blog: http://www.humanitas.blogspot.com

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This is my first vent here… I want to get off the Effexor I’ve been taking for depression for almost a year now.  I’ve been more stable than DP’s seen me to be in the past 8 years, in the last 6 months.  Unfortunately, in those last 6 months I also sleep about 12 hours a day, and occasionally I get this "Stoned" sensation where stuff gets blurry and I have trouble thinking of words or figuring out just where I am…I’ll wander and then snap out of my reverie like, two hours later, wondering where the time went.

Funny how things work — we are looking at it as an alternative, but only if we can’t tweak the dosage on my present drugs. If Effexor does have a positive effect as well as side effects, there is a reasonable class of alternatives: the "first-generation" tricyclic antidepressants (TCA).  Cheap, and with a different side effect profile. Both Effexor and the TCAs differ from the "second generation" selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRI) in being nonselective: they elevate both serotonin and norepinephrine, rather than just serotonin. The two classes do it by different mechanisms. Effexor works presynaptically, slowing the reuptake into the transmitting cell. TCAs work postsynaptically, inhibiting the enzyme catechol-O-methyl-transferase, which metabolizes serotonin and norepinephrine in The stuff’s expensive as hell, I have no drug coverage, and there’s no way I can do a master’s thesis in September if I’m sleeping more than I’m awake. If I want back on flight operations, I have to lose the drugs that could affect my ability to control an aircraft. So today I’m at the doctor’s and he tells me that if I quit the stuff, I’m almost guaranteed to relapse.

Too many psychiatrists are overly fixated on single drugs or drug classes. They seem to fixate on the newest drugs, rather than older ones that can be quite effective — and usually much cheaper. IIRC, a month’s supply of nortriptyline is around USD $10.  TCAs fall into two families, the first drug of one class being amitriptyline and the first drug of the second being imipramine.  The second group tends to be less sedating, although you can usually minimize sedation by changing drugs within the same group. I’m in my 20s.  I don’t want to be on this crap for the rest of my life.  Hell, the concept of being stuck on drugs is one of the big reasons I left my depression untreated until I became a menace to people around me as well as myself.  I think I know the symptoms well enough–if I start inflicting injury on myself and viewing life through a red rage haze, it’s time to go back on the pills.  I was depressed, I think, since about age 4 or so, but during that time I only had two severe (ie, want-to-kill-myself) episodes, and those 8 years apart.  The minor rounds I could handle without chemical interference.  At that rate, it’d be 2013 before I needed pills again.  That’s a lot of money and a lot of drug-free years.

That may be perfectly good reasoning. Having someone that can get creative with the drugs, seeking less sedating and cheaper alternatives, also can be valid. That red haze is starting to creep back a little, since the doc didn’t in any way suggest that this was a "for the rest of my life" kind of thing until just now.  I feel like I’ve gotten suckered into this situation, and that pisses me off.

Personally, I don’t have a "rest of my life" concern with psychotropic drugs, any more than my cardiac drugs — _IF_ they are appropriately prescribed with plenty of thought.

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<very gently snipped My daughter was also put on Effexor, but for depression.  She wanted to

get off of them too, but couldn’t, not even with a gradual withdrawal (as soon as she missed one dose she would have horrible, severe flu-like symptoms. Hi Nipped, That is one of the symptoms I had when I first stepped down the dosage – major flu like symptoms, and extremely exhausted. I am now over that, but it took almost a month.  My dr. said it was a Fibromyalgia flare, and it was because the Effexor had been controlling the symptoms and it wasn’t any more. Honestly, I felt WORSE after this drug than I ever did before as far as the fibro went. It is like it exacerbated it, rather than controlling it. Thanks for the tip on ClaritinD – I will most certainly try it. Patti

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Hi Nipped, That is one of the symptoms I had when I first stepped down the dosage – major flu like symptoms, and extremely exhausted. I am now over that, but it took almost a month.  My dr. said it was a Fibromyalgia flare, and it was because the Effexor had been controlling the symptoms and it wasn’t any more. Honestly, I felt WORSE after this drug than I ever did before as far as the fibro went. It is like it exacerbated it, rather than controlling

it. Yeah, for me too.  I really didn’t feel any diminishment of pain from the fibro while I was on the Effexor.  It *did* help the depression that was caused by the fibro (finding out that you’re going to be in constant pain for the rest of your life can be quite depressing).  And you’re right, the pain during withdrawals was definitely worse than the pain I had before I started taking it.  I really don’t know why they haven’t taken this drug off the market – there’s beeen thousands of complaints to the FDA about it.  I think there’s been some *marjor* payoffs regarding this golden goose of the drug company that manufactures it. Hugs, CatNipped – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks for the tip on ClaritinD – I will most certainly try it. Patti

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This is my first vent here… I want to get off the Effexor I’ve been taking for depression for almost a year now.  I’ve been more stable than DP’s seen me to be in the past 8 years, in the last 6 months.  Unfortunately, in those last 6 months I also sleep about 12 hours a day, and occasionally I get this "Stoned" sensation where stuff gets blurry and I have trouble thinking of words or figuring out just where I am…I’ll wander and then snap out of my reverie like, two hours later, wondering where the time went. The stuff’s expensive as hell, I have no drug coverage, and there’s no way I can do a master’s thesis in September if I’m sleeping more than I’m awake. If I want back on flight operations, I have to lose the drugs that could affect my ability to control an aircraft. So today I’m at the doctor’s and he tells me that if I quit the stuff, I’m almost guaranteed to relapse. DP’s afraid I will, sometime when no one’s around to stop me from cutting my throat–or someone else’s. I’m in my 20s.  I don’t want to be on this crap for the rest of my life.  Hell, the concept of being stuck on drugs is one of the big reasons I left my depression untreated until I became a menace to people around me as well as myself.  I think I know the symptoms well enough–if I start inflicting injury on myself and viewing life through a red rage haze, it’s time to go back on the pills.  I was depressed, I think, since about age 4 or so, but during that time I only had two severe (ie, want-to-kill-myself) episodes, and those 8 years apart.  The minor rounds I could handle without chemical interference.  At that rate, it’d be 2013 before I needed pills again. That’s a lot of money and a lot of drug-free years. That red haze is starting to creep back a little, since the doc didn’t in any way suggest that this was a "for the rest of my life" kind of thing until just now.  I feel like I’ve gotten suckered into this situation, and that pisses me off. –Enfilade

Hi Enfilade, Effexor is a big time drug to be on for depression – it is usually used for major depression and even some psychotic disorders.  I understand that you want off of the medication because you feel good now – but remember, that is the medication helping you to feel better and control your depression. If you are wanting to try something that won’t turn you into a zombie, ask your doctor about weaning off of it, while being started on something else. If you are taken off of medication completely and you begin to relapse, you could spiral downward before a new drug takes effect (anti-depressants usually take 3-4 weeks before full effect is reached). The consequesnces of that far outweight the benefits of being "drug-free." Also, a relapse is usually worse once being taken off of a medication because of the major changes in the chemicals in your brain… Please be careful I know there is a stigma attached to being on medication for depression, but it is an illness…. Really think of the benefits of the medication vesus the possible results of being off of the medication. Talk to your doc first about switching to a different kind, one that still helps your symptoms, but with less side effects. Good luck

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 This is my first vent here…  I want to get off the Effexor I’ve been taking for depression for  almost a year now.  I’ve been more stable than DP’s seen me to be in  the past 8 years, in the last 6 months.  Unfortunately, in those last  6 months I also sleep about 12 hours a day, and occasionally I get  this "Stoned" sensation where stuff gets blurry and I have trouble  thinking of words or figuring out just where I am…I’ll wander and  then snap out of my reverie like, two hours later, wondering where the  time went.  The stuff’s expensive as hell, I have no drug coverage, and there’s no  way I can do a master’s thesis in September if I’m sleeping more than  I’m awake. If I want back on flight operations, I have to lose the  drugs that could affect my ability to control an aircraft.  So today I’m at the doctor’s and he tells me that if I quit the stuff,  I’m almost guaranteed to relapse.  DP’s afraid I will, sometime when no one’s around to stop me from  cutting my throat–or someone else’s.  I’m in my 20s.  I don’t want to be on this crap for the rest of my  life.  Hell, the concept of being stuck on drugs is one of the big  reasons I left my depression untreated until I became a menace to  people around me as well as myself.  I think I know the symptoms well enough–if I start inflicting injury on myself and viewing life through a red rage haze, it’s time to go back on the pills.  I was depressed, I think, since about age 4 or so, but during that time I only had two severe (ie, want-to-kill-myself) episodes, and those 8  years apart.  The minor rounds I could handle without chemical  interference.  At that rate, it’d be 2013 before I needed pills again.   That’s a lot of money and a lot of drug-free years.  That red haze is starting to creep back a little, since the doc didn’t  in any way suggest that this was a "for the rest of my life" kind of  thing until just now.  I feel like I’ve gotten suckered into this  situation, and that pisses me off.  –Enfilade Hi Fil, I have been on Effexor for about 3 years, and am now in the process of stepping down the dose in order to quit.  I was having some of the same symptoms as you – the feeling of ‘not being there’ is one major one, and the just not caring about things. Plus, I am one of the 5 to 10% that develop high blood pressure while taking it.  I finally told my doc that I WAS going to d/c this, with or without his help. He finally agreed, with the proviso that if I become depressed again I would tell him. It hasn’t been completely easy, but at least I am able to feel again. I hope you can get your dr. to take you off this, and that everything goes ok! Patti

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Question:

Let me just take a wild guess here and assume u took an ssri. I’ve been on and off mine for years, off now for at least a year, and I get the shakes in the morning for no reason. I now believe what it took exacerbated my anxiety but so did other things. You could cut out all caffeine, tobacco, get more exercise, practice deep breathing, go to cognitive behavioral therapy, but most important at all, i think, is not to obsess about it. just enjoy it until it goes away- it’s nothing to worry about.

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You could cut out all caffeine, tobacco, get more exercise, practice deep breathing, go to cognitive behavioral therapy, but most important at all, i think, is not to obsess about it. just enjoy it until it goes away- it’s nothing to worry about.

Thanks a lot! I have been heading towards the same conclusion myself! More than the trembling, it is the _anticipation_ of the trembling that exacerbates it.Thank you for your comments.

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Hello there,   I have had bouts of mild depression ,but i had taken medication and am now not on medicines. But, I have occasional bouts of trembling hands or legs and excessive sweating. This happens (not surprisingly) when there are other people arpund. When I take a spoon of sugar to put it into someones cup, my hands shake visibly. When I get onstage to speak , my legs shake like there is some spring inside them (I have never had shaky legs while going onstage until about a year ago -even though I did have stage fear). And, when I talk to people I suddenly start sweating profusely and sometimes my speach slurs (I then feel like words are crashing throgh my mind and my mouth ain’t fast enough to speak my thoughts).Once or twice , I’ve woken up with a start due to marked twiching of some part of my body which disappears as soon as I get up.This is a source of real social embarrassment for me. What’s worse is that when I start trembling or sweating, I also get anxious that I am t. or s. and this acts like some feedback mechanism and _increases_ the t. and s.   I am 18 years old and am otherwise healthy. I do not want to take medicine for this.Can anyone tell me a way out of this which involves only exercise and proper diet? And yes, my sleep cycles are awry and I have a sizeable sleep debt.

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Depending on what medication you were on it may still be some lingering side effect. I am not a doctor but I have heard of this happening sometimes. It sounds to me that you may have symptoms of some anxiety disorder. I would go to the docotor and get checked to rule out anything else. I sure you hate to take meds however we all do but you gotta do what ya gotta do sometimes. Hopefully some type of exercise will work for you. Take care. Paul

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Wow, another young one!  I’m 18 as well, as of October 3rd. Anyway, I am on Zoloft, Xanax, and BuSpar, and the first week or so my speech slurred as well, not much, but it was noticeable.  My mom said it sounded like I was drunk.  So, as BlueFin said, it could still be a side-effect, depending on when you stopped the meds.  About the trembling, if it’s violent shaking you should talk to your doctor.  My arms and legs, especially my hands, tremble sometimes and shake when they are not supported and I am really anxious.  My psychologist said that this happened because an anxious person’s heart is pumping blood so fast that it takes it away from the limbs and they start to get tingly and shake.  Since you can still get up on stage, I say you’re doing great!  I couldn’t imagine doing something like that right now. Hope this helped,     Robin Michelle – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello there,   I have had bouts of mild depression ,but i had taken medication and am now not on medicines. But, I have occasional bouts of trembling hands or legs and excessive sweating. This happens (not surprisingly) when there are other people arpund. When I take a spoon of sugar to put it into someones cup, my hands shake visibly. When I get onstage to speak , my legs shake like there is some spring inside them (I have never had shaky legs while going onstage until about a year ago -even though I did have stage fear). And, when I talk to people I suddenly start sweating profusely and sometimes my speach slurs (I then feel like words are crashing throgh my mind and my mouth ain’t fast enough to speak my thoughts).Once or twice , I’ve woken up with a start due to marked twiching of some part of my body which disappears as soon as I get up.This is a source of real social embarrassment for me. What’s worse is that when I start trembling or sweating, I also get anxious that I am t. or s. and this acts like some feedback mechanism and _increases_ the t. and s.   I am 18 years old and am otherwise healthy. I do not want to take medicine for this.Can anyone tell me a way out of this which involves only exercise and proper diet? And yes, my sleep cycles are awry and I have a sizeable sleep debt.

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Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – you have the right to ask him this very question-there may be enumerable reasons why he wants you to go off zoloft-some may even be valid, but that does not mean you have to, or he is right. It is fine for a doc to change their mind,  but their principal obligation is to you as your medical doctor who’s goal is to make your life better, not more confusing or anxiety producing. Please don’t spend time worrying about his motives his comments or his attitude. Enjoy your holiday as best as you can and deal with this next week. If he does not give you a reasonable explanation, it may be time to find another doctor-you may have outgrown this one. LM, Brilliant post.  You know, now that you mention it, one of my main complaints with him  is that I don’t think this particular doc specializes in Anxiety disorders.  Thus, if we are talking about anxiety or GAD, he doesn’t mind saying what "could" happen.  As in: "Yes, zoloft works for you, but it ‘could’ fail you.", etc.  I feel like saying:  Well, Gee whiz doc, I had never thought of what ‘could’ happen….Why don’t you tell me something else that COULD happen? Could Zoloft cause any permanent physical problems?  "There is no evidence that it causes heart valve failure, but similar drugs do, so heart valve failure ‘could’ happen." I have left many appointments feeling more anxious than when I went in. I think for the new year I’ll hunt for a new Pdoc  (by the way, why do people use the term Pdoc in here?)

Hi, Ron — I think it’s the convention of the group to use the term pdoc to refer to the doctor one sees to treat one’s complaints/problems or whatnot.  For a lot of people, if not most, I think the word pdoc is seen as a shortened term for psychiatrist.  However, there are instances in which people are being treated for their anxiety/panic disorder by someone who is not a psychiatrist – be it psychologist, general practice doctor, or medicine man. Best Wishes — Blue (one who is now seeing a psychiatrist – FINALLY!… ) Remove mypants to email me

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Yes that’s me…sigh.  I don’t know.  5 years ago he said I’d probably be on it the rest of my life.  Now this year, there is this push for me to scale back.  I don’t get it.

you have the right to ask him this very question-there may be enumerable reasons why he wants you to go off zoloft-some may even be valid, but that does not mean you have to, or he is right. It is fine for a doc to change their mind,  but their principal obligation is to you as your medical doctor who’s goal is to make your life better, not more confusing or anxiety producing. Please don’t spend time worrying about his motives his comments or his attitude. Enjoy your holiday as best as you can and deal with this next week. If he does not give you a reasonable explanation, it may be time to find another doctor-you may have outgrown this one. LM

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Ron, Find a new psychiatrist. Run away from this guy.  Run don’t walk !!!! Start looking now while you still have a prescription. Try to speak to potential psychiatrists and explain the situation to them. See how they respond and go with the pdoc that you feel understands you. You are the customer. Find a new source for your health care. Tony

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Well, I just got back from meeting with my Psychiatrist.  I told him I am feeling much better now that I am back up to my original dose of 100mg. of Zoloft.  And the whole nine yards… After I finished my speal about "whew, I’m glad all that (anxiety) is over…."  He then took that opportunity to tell me he recommends I still scale down if not off completely from zoloft and that I see a therapist to work through some issues I have with my childhood.  He said this process will take a long time possibly years, but it would be for the best.

It’s time to go doctor shopping, Ron. Finally something works again and he wants to take you off it…that is not only bad medicine, it’s also downright cruel. Many people need meds and at this pojt you seem to be one of them (as am I). Moreover *working through issues you have with your childhood* is totally useless as a therapy to get rid of anxiety symptoms as any doc worth his salt should know. The therapy of choice is *Cognitive Behavioral Therapy* which is very much a here-and-now therapy. Have you ever tried it? If not, it is highly recommended. I asked him what gave him the idea that I could be off of meds and still function?  His response was that my depression/anxiety was at a moderate to moderate/low level and as such, doesn’t necessarily require medication to fight.

I see…*he* know what you go through better than *you* do? I don’t think so. I am feeling totally confused now.  I’ve tried to scale off of zoloft twice now.  Perhaps I went too rapidly both times, I don’t know.  I dropped off Zoloft completely the first time in about 8 weeks.  The second time I dropped my dosage by .25mg increments and started having anxiety attacks when I hit .50mg (1/2 my optimal dose)   How am I supposed to scale off this time?  Drop by 12.5mg increments and pray?

I wouldn’t stop taking it. It helps you. I *would* do CBT, see what that gets me and if I can maybe do without meds then. If not, that’s fine too. I don’t know folks…what do you think?  Cut my dose in half?  I’d love to.  Elliminate it completely?  There is nothing I’d like better – I’d even do back flips.

Why? If it works, it works. And a med that works is a thing to cherish.  But I just don’t know how I’m going to do it unless I could be hospitalized or something.  I lost 6 months of my life to anxiety the first time I agressively quit zoloft.  When I scaled back, I suffered for 3 weeks till I got stabilized again.  

Please find another pdoc, someone who knows what (s)he is talking about,. Don’t let this clown confuse you. Philip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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:Also, this whole situation is causing me alot of anxiety as well. amn.  After almost 2 weeks without Xanax I am feeling like I need one :now. {{{{{Ron}}}}} Your pdoc is suppose to help decrease your anxiety, not add to it. Your anxiety might be trying to tell you that you aren`t ready to stop taking zoloft. Listen to your gut. Jackie ~*~The bad things of life were very transitory.It was the good things , the ribbed sand, the wind blowing over the white capped waves , the sunshine and the stars, that were so tough and durable~*~

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.S. I am going out of town tomorrow to spend the day and night at the :in-laws….that has me anxious as well – I suppose many of you can :relate. Very understandable! Happy Thanksgiving I hope you are able to enjoy yourself. Jackie ~*~The bad things of life were very transitory.It was the good things , the ribbed sand, the wind blowing over the white capped waves , the sunshine and the stars, that were so tough and durable~*~

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I just got back from meeting with my Psychiatrist. he recommends I still scale down if not off completely from zoloft and that I see a therapist to work through some issues I have with my childhood.

That’s bullshit. Going into all the perils of your childhood won’t replace the zoloft and your being anxiety free, – what is done is done, (in my opinion).  I think it’s time you shopped around for someone who knows how to treat anxiety disorders. I wish you well – K  

Response:

you have the right to ask him this very question-there may be enumerable reasons why he wants you to go off zoloft-some may even be valid, but that does not mean you have to, or he is right. It is fine for a doc to change their mind,  but their principal obligation is to you as your medical doctor who’s goal is to make your life better, not more confusing or anxiety producing. Please don’t spend time worrying about his motives his comments or his attitude. Enjoy your holiday as best as you can and deal with this next week. If he does not give you a reasonable explanation, it may be time to find another doctor-you may have outgrown this one.

LM, Brilliant post.  You know, now that you mention it, one of my main complaints with him  is that I don’t think this particular doc specializes in Anxiety disorders.  Thus, if we are talking about anxiety or GAD, he doesn’t mind saying what "could" happen.  As in: "Yes, zoloft works for you, but it ‘could’ fail you.", etc.  I feel like saying:  Well, Gee whiz doc, I had never thought of what ‘could’ happen….Why don’t you tell me something else that COULD happen? Could Zoloft cause any permanent physical problems?  "There is no evidence that it causes heart valve failure, but similar drugs do, so heart valve failure ‘could’ happen." I have left many appointments feeling more anxious than when I went in. I think for the new year I’ll hunt for a new Pdoc  (by the way, why do people use the term Pdoc in here?)

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ron, Find a new psychiatrist. Run away from this guy.  Run don’t walk !!!! Start looking now while you still have a prescription. Try to speak to potential psychiatrists and explain the situation to them. See how they respond and go with the pdoc that you feel understands you. You are the customer. Find a new source for your health care. Tony

Tony, I think you are right.  I’ve still got some time – time to go pdoc shopping. Ron

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, I just got back from meeting with my Psychiatrist.  I told him I am feeling much better now that I am back up to my original dose of 100mg. of Zoloft.  And the whole nine yards… After I finished my speal about "whew, I’m glad all that (anxiety) is over…."  He then took that opportunity to tell me he recommends I still scale down if not off completely from zoloft and that I see a therapist to work through some issues I have with my childhood.  He said this process will take a long time possibly years, but it would be for the best. I asked him what gave him the idea that I could be off of meds and still function?  His response was that my depression/anxiety was at a moderate to moderate/low level and as such, doesn’t necessarily require medication to fight. I am feeling totally confused now.  I’ve tried to scale off of zoloft twice now.  Perhaps I went too rapidly both times, I don’t know.  I dropped off Zoloft completely the first time in about 8 weeks.  The second time I dropped my dosage by .25mg increments and started having anxiety attacks when I hit .50mg (1/2 my optimal dose)   How am I supposed to scale off this time?  Drop by 12.5mg increments and pray? I don’t know folks…what do you think?  Cut my dose in half?  I’d love to.  Elliminate it completely?  There is nothing I’d like better – I’d even do back flips.  But I just don’t know how I’m going to do it unless I could be hospitalized or something.  I lost 6 months of my life to anxiety the first time I agressively quit zoloft.  When I scaled back, I suffered for 3 weeks till I got stabilized again.   Ron

Dear Ron. My suggestion is to get a second opinion… You are doing better by being on that dose of zoloft. It is imo that you should remain on that while you talk with a therapist and not worry about weaning. I don’t understand why your pysch would even mention this to you at this point. You need to get your meds adjusted, then work with a therapist. I don’t want to sound negative but I would get a second viewpoint regarding your anxiety, medications etc. I feel when a doctor or pyschiatrist starts to disgust tapering off BEFORE any set therapy or mentions that you should be off it altogether is not in your best intersests at this point in your recovery. Some people, regardless of therapy, have to maintain medications through out there life time. That shouldn’t be the issue. SO I suggest the second opinion. My doc has been so good regarding the Effexor and Ativan that I take. I wish everyone had a doctor as compassionate and patient as mine. I tried to wean off the effxor and got down to 150 per day when I started to feel so sad and anxious. So I am taking the 300 per day and am doing just fine. I take the Ativan as needed. I had childhood issues to deal with and even though I am comfortable with the results, I am still taking the medications. Maybe in a year or so I can try and wean again but my doctor says it is when I AM READY to do it… I wish you all the best and please let me know if and when you see another doctor regarding your anxiety and medications. Julie

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – :I don’t know folks…what do you think?  Cut my dose in half?  I’d :love to.  Elliminate it completely?  There is nothing I’d like better :- I’d even do back flips.  But I just don’t know how I’m going to do :it unless I could be hospitalized or something.  I lost 6 months of my :life to anxiety the first time I agressively quit zoloft.  When I :scaled back, I suffered for 3 weeks till I got stabilized again.   Dear Ron, Aren`t you the poster that increased their zoloft dose about 3 1/2 weeks ago because you were having a setback? If so, then I really don`t understand why your doctor would want you to stop taking a med after you just got stabilized on it. I also question his recommending "analyze your childhood" type of therapy. A lot of people, myself included have done the talk therapy, rehashing one`s childhood and the past with very little to no impact on our anxiety disorder. That`s not saying that no one benefits from disorders is congnitive behavioral therapy. You can also do therapy while on medication. If I were you I would get a second opinion. What do you want to do? You seem hesitant about getting off zoloft which is understandable. Take care Jackie ~*~The bad things of life were very transitory.It was the good things , the ribbed sand, the wind blowing over the white capped waves , the sunshine and the stars, that were so tough and durable~*~

Jackie, Yes that’s me…sigh.  I don’t know.  5 years ago he said I’d probably be on it the rest of my life.  Now this year, there is this push for me to scale back.  I don’t get it. Also, this whole situation is causing me alot of anxiety as well. Damn.  After almost 2 weeks without Xanax I am feeling like I need one now. Ron

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Hey Ron, He sounds like he needs those TALK sessions in HIS piggy bank, you just aren’t worth the effort for him if you are so easily managed on meds. sorry to sound so cold and heartless, but thats my NSHO ( NOT so humble opinion) Once in this anx/pan thing we seem to go round on a merry go round, maybe its NOT childhood issues but real life/real time issues. My GP and I do not always see eye to eye on details, but his philosophy here in this hospitality/resort area is that most of us in hospitality professions need medication support because our jobs are so seasonally whacky, we go from 100 MPH to zip  and back and must always be cheerful, helpful, and  NOT STRESSED~~, the epitome of   Yassa Massta. He has joked with me in the past that he thinks he ought to sneak a patent ~~~~~~~ not serious. He’s your doc, but you don’t have to be Yassa Massta.  Good point that you are comfortable at your current dose and want to stay there for a while…… in 3 or 6 or 9 months  or more you may have different insights. Feel Well Ron.  Make it a body memory like walking, running, breathing, eating, laughing, sleeping.   Most of us get stable on a med and then want to get off, we don’t take the time to internalize the good feeling and  own it. Thanks for bringing this up, disagreements with docs should give us opportunities to express our own thoughts. have a happy gobbleday, stay in your PJ/s as long as possible and absolutely indulge in the after meal nap. Sue

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, I just got back from meeting with my Psychiatrist.  I told him I am feeling much better now that I am back up to my original dose of 100mg. of Zoloft.  And the whole nine yards… After I finished my speal about "whew, I’m glad all that (anxiety) is over…."  He then took that opportunity to tell me he recommends I still scale down if not off completely from zoloft and that I see a therapist to work through some issues I have with my childhood.  He said this process will take a long time possibly years, but it would be for the best. I asked him what gave him the idea that I could be off of meds and still function?  His response was that my depression/anxiety was at a moderate to moderate/low level and as such, doesn’t necessarily require medication to fight. I am feeling totally confused now.  I’ve tried to scale off of zoloft twice now.  Perhaps I went too rapidly both times, I don’t know.  I dropped off Zoloft completely the first time in about 8 weeks.  The second time I dropped my dosage by .25mg increments and started having anxiety attacks when I hit .50mg (1/2 my optimal dose) How am I supposed to scale off this time?  Drop by 12.5mg increments and pray? I don’t know folks…what do you think?  Cut my dose in half?  I’d love to.  Elliminate it completely?  There is nothing I’d like better – I’d even do back flips.  But I just don’t know how I’m going to do it unless I could be hospitalized or something.  I lost 6 months of my life to anxiety the first time I agressively quit zoloft.  When I scaled back, I suffered for 3 weeks till I got stabilized again. Ron

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – :I don’t know folks…what do you think?  Cut my dose in half?  I’d :love to.  Elliminate it completely?  There is nothing I’d like better :- I’d even do back flips.  But I just don’t know how I’m going to do :it unless I could be hospitalized or something.  I lost 6 months of my :life to anxiety the first time I agressively quit zoloft.  When I :scaled back, I suffered for 3 weeks till I got stabilized again.   Dear Ron, Aren`t you the poster that increased their zoloft dose about 3 1/2 weeks ago because you were having a setback? If so, then I really don`t understand why your doctor would want you to stop taking a med after you just got stabilized on it. I also question his recommending "analyze your childhood" type of therapy. A lot of people, myself included have done the talk therapy, rehashing one`s childhood and the past with very little to no impact on our anxiety disorder. That`s not saying that no one benefits from disorders is congnitive behavioral therapy. You can also do therapy while on medication. If I were you I would get a second opinion. What do you want to do? You seem hesitant about getting off zoloft which is understandable. Take care Jackie ~*~The bad things of life were very transitory.It was the good things , the ribbed sand, the wind blowing over the white capped waves , the sunshine and the stars, that were so tough and durable~*~

P.S. I am going out of town tomorrow to spend the day and night at the in-laws….that has me anxious as well – I suppose many of you can relate.

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If you are comfortable on the med and doing well, then I fail to understand your pdoc’s point of view.  I think you are right to stay on it. Take care, Liz – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, I just got back from meeting with my Psychiatrist.  I told him I am feeling much better now that I am back up to my original dose of 100mg. of Zoloft.  And the whole nine yards… After I finished my speal about "whew, I’m glad all that (anxiety) is over…."  He then took that opportunity to tell me he recommends I still scale down if not off completely from zoloft and that I see a therapist to work through some issues I have with my childhood.  He said this process will take a long time possibly years, but it would be for the best. I asked him what gave him the idea that I could be off of meds and still function?  His response was that my depression/anxiety was at a moderate to moderate/low level and as such, doesn’t necessarily require medication to fight. I am feeling totally confused now.  I’ve tried to scale off of zoloft twice now.  Perhaps I went too rapidly both times, I don’t know.  I dropped off Zoloft completely the first time in about 8 weeks.  The second time I dropped my dosage by .25mg increments and started having anxiety attacks when I hit .50mg (1/2 my optimal dose)   How am I supposed to scale off this time?  Drop by 12.5mg increments and pray? I don’t know folks…what do you think?  Cut my dose in half?  I’d love to.  Elliminate it completely?  There is nothing I’d like better – I’d even do back flips.  But I just don’t know how I’m going to do it unless I could be hospitalized or something.  I lost 6 months of my life to anxiety the first time I agressively quit zoloft.  When I scaled back, I suffered for 3 weeks till I got stabilized again.   Ron

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:I don’t know folks…what do you think?  Cut my dose in half?  I’d :love to.  Elliminate it completely?  There is nothing I’d like better :- I’d even do back flips.  But I just don’t know how I’m going to do :it unless I could be hospitalized or something.  I lost 6 months of my :life to anxiety the first time I agressively quit zoloft.  When I :scaled back, I suffered for 3 weeks till I got stabilized again.   Dear Ron, Aren`t you the poster that increased their zoloft dose about 3 1/2 weeks ago because you were having a setback? If so, then I really don`t understand why your doctor would want you to stop taking a med after you just got stabilized on it. I also question his recommending "analyze your childhood" type of therapy. A lot of people, myself included have done the talk therapy, rehashing one`s childhood and the past with very little to no impact on our anxiety disorder. That`s not saying that no one benefits from disorders is congnitive behavioral therapy. You can also do therapy while on medication. If I were you I would get a second opinion. What do you want to do? You seem hesitant about getting off zoloft which is understandable. Take care Jackie ~*~The bad things of life were very transitory.It was the good things , the ribbed sand, the wind blowing over the white capped waves , the sunshine and the stars, that were so tough and durable~*~

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Well, I just got back from meeting with my Psychiatrist.  I told him I am feeling much better now that I am back up to my original dose of 100mg. of Zoloft.  And the whole nine yards… After I finished my speal about "whew, I’m glad all that (anxiety) is over…."  He then took that opportunity to tell me he recommends I still scale down if not off completely from zoloft and that I see a therapist to work through some issues I have with my childhood.  He said this process will take a long time possibly years, but it would be for the best. I asked him what gave him the idea that I could be off of meds and still function?  His response was that my depression/anxiety was at a moderate to moderate/low level and as such, doesn’t necessarily require medication to fight. I am feeling totally confused now.  I’ve tried to scale off of zoloft twice now.  Perhaps I went too rapidly both times, I don’t know.  I dropped off Zoloft completely the first time in about 8 weeks.  The second time I dropped my dosage by .25mg increments and started having anxiety attacks when I hit .50mg (1/2 my optimal dose)   How am I supposed to scale off this time?  Drop by 12.5mg increments and pray? I don’t know folks…what do you think?  Cut my dose in half?  I’d love to.  Elliminate it completely?  There is nothing I’d like better – I’d even do back flips.  But I just don’t know how I’m going to do it unless I could be hospitalized or something.  I lost 6 months of my life to anxiety the first time I agressively quit zoloft.  When I scaled back, I suffered for 3 weeks till I got stabilized again.   Ron

Response:

Question:

Hi Mark,   I am a third year pharmacy student at the University of Illinois.  I read your letter last week about Zoloft side effects, and would like to respond to it.  I don’t know when you started taking Zoloft but what you should know is that in order for the medication to work you have to take it for at leat 3-4 weeks.  Usually physicians will give you another medication to take concurrently with Zoloft to cover you until it will start working. Klonopin is sometimes used for this purpose.  I looked up some links for you, so you could get some extra information about both meds.  If you have some time, look at: http://www.fairlite.com/ocd/medications/zoloft.shtml This link has a list of all side effects of zoloft that were ever reported.  I checked the list and 2.6% of population experience anxiety.  (the entire article is kind of long so please scroll down).  Some other nice links about your medications are: http://www.begin.com/redoak/medications/klonopin.html http://www.pfizer.com/hml/pi’s/zoloftpi.html  Before you stop Zoloft – inform you physician.  Recently, there were many reports about Zoloft withdrawal syndrome.  This means you cannot just stop, you have to decrease the doses day by day, and then stop.  There is a link that explains it: http://www.pharminfo.com/pin_hp.html  I hope the information I suggested will be helpful to you, but I cannot make any guarantees as to its accuracy, completeness, usefulness, or relevance to your particular situation.  There is no substitute for having an ongoing, two-way dialogue with a licensed health professional whom you know and trust. Good luck. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am using Zoloft and feel anxiety and confusion with my other medication Klonopin. Can you help me? I am concerned this is not normal and I dont know what to expect. I am much better but I just don

Question:

    Recently I read a study on sibutramine (Meridia).  I had read several others, but not recently.  In this study patients on 5 mg lost more weight than those on placebo.  Patients taking 20 mg lost far more than those taking 5 mg or placebo.  All patients were consuming structured diets, using behavioral modification, and mild exercise.     My question is this: since the drug appears useful in weight reduction (which I guess it’d have to be, to have ever been approved) why are so many people not seeing results with it?  I know a few people have seen results, but the majority, myself included, have been disappointed.     Why would prior phen-fen use make one less likely to benefit from Meridia (which seems to be the common opinion)?  I only took Meridia for 4 weeks; I didn’t want to fork out that much money for another month if it wasn’t doing anything.  Do the effects increase with time?  The study I refer to was only a 12-week study, although none of the participants  were currently using other meds, so phen users would have been excluded from the study.     Any ideas? Adria

Response:

I’ve been on 10mg per day of Meridia for two weeks and I’ve lost 8 pounds. As a purely subjective speculation, I wonder if it may be effective for so few people because it may work on just a single cause of obesity, that being due to an out-of-whack appetite. For as long as I can remember I’ve been able to look at what most people would consider a normal sized portion of food and know before I ever start eating that my appetite won’t be satisfied until I eat two or three times that amount. This is even more of a problem with sweet and/or fatty foods than it is with things like fruits and vegetables. I also tend to think about food very frequently throughout the day and as a result eat frequent snacks. This is independent of habit, mood, emotional or physical condition or any other variable I can think of. The bottom line is I just seem to be hard-wired to overeat. The Meridia seems to have almost magically "reset" my perception of how much food is enough. I prepare small portions of relatively healthful, varied kinds of foods, and even though sometimes my stomach feels physically hungry, I can easily resist what is now a much weakened urge to snack or overeat. And although it’s a distant secondary consideration, the price of the medication is a motivating factor, too! I’d hate to be spending so much money on something that turned out to be ineffective. Of course I realize 2 weeks isn’t very long, but since my doctor is concerned about my gradually but steadily increasing blood pressure and has told me a weight loss of even 10 or 20 pounds will likely prevent my having to control it with medication, even the weight I’ve already lost is of beneft.

<most of reply snipped – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -4) In the Meridia studies, patients did the best on the larger doses (20 and 30 mg), but the blood pressure results were unacceptable. The largest dose Knoll could get approved was 15 mg. Of the surveys I’ve gotten (something like 300 of them), I’d say about 80 percent of the people were not satisfied with the results they got. Barbara Barbara Hirsch, Publisher Obesity Meds and Research News OMR Web Site: http://www.obesity-news.com

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   Why would prior phen-fen use make one less likely to benefit from Meridia (which seems to be the common opinion)?  

Here are a few reasons: 1) Phentermine and fenfluramine are releasers and reuptake inhibitors, Meridia is only a reuptake inhibitor of norepinephrine and serotonin. 2) Phentermine works on dopamine, whereas Meridia has a very small action on dopamine (which is one of the reasons some folks get sleepy on it). 3) Most people develop some what of a tolerance to obesity medications after a while. So if you develop a tolerance,  and you start taking a weaker drug, you are likely to see poor results. Of course, every one’s receptors are different, and YMMV. 4) In the Meridia studies, patients did the best on the larger doses (20 and 30 mg), but the blood pressure results were unacceptable. The largest dose Knoll could get approved was 15 mg. Of the surveys I’ve gotten (something like 300 of them), I’d say about 80 percent of the people were not satisfied with the results they got. Barbara Barbara Hirsch, Publisher Obesity Meds and Research News OMR Web Site: http://www.obesity-news.com

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I’ve been on 10mg per day of Meridia for two weeks and I’ve lost 8 pounds. As a purely subjective speculation, I wonder if it may be effective for so few people because it may work on just a single cause of obesity, that being due to an out-of-whack appetite.

Meridia doesn’t work on any cause of obesity, it’s an appetite suppressant, and the serotonin component *may* help with OCD. But the jury is still out on that. But phen/fen didn’t work on a cause of obesity either. At this point in time researchers conclude that a variety of "susceptibility genes" cause people to be obese. The only way you could accurately treat an obese person is by knowing what those genes were, and then develop drugs or gene therapy to treat. We are many, many years from that point. I can easily resist what is now a much weakened urge to snack or overeat. And although it’s a distant secondary consideration, the price of the medication is a motivating factor, too! I’d hate to be spending so much money on something that turned out to be ineffective.

I’m glad it’s working for you. There’s no arguing with success <G! Of course I realize 2 weeks isn’t very long

No it isn’t. Let me know how you feel in another six months. If you still think it’s effective. Barbara Barbara Hirsch, Publisher Obesity Meds and Research News OMR Web Site: http://www.obesity-news.com

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –    Recently I read a study on sibutramine (Meridia).  I had read several others, but not recently.  In this study patients on 5 mg lost more weight than those on placebo.  Patients taking 20 mg lost far more than those taking 5 mg or placebo.  All patients were consuming structured diets, using behavioral modification, and mild exercise.    My question is this: since the drug appears useful in weight reduction (which I guess it’d have to be, to have ever been approved) why are so many people not seeing results with it?  I know a few people have seen results, but the majority, myself included, have been disappointed.    Why would prior phen-fen use make one less likely to benefit from Meridia (which seems to be the common opinion)?  I only took Meridia for 4 weeks; I didn’t want to fork out that much money for another month if it wasn’t doing anything.  Do the effects increase with time?  The study I refer to was only a 12-week study, although none of the participants  were currently using other meds, so phen users would have been excluded from the study.

My own belief is that the mechanisms involved are quite different.  If you were having success with phen/fen, this points heavily in the direction of problems with serotonin levels (Phen increases the release of serotonin, fen slows down the reabsobtion).  Meridia does not greatly affect the serotonin levels – it works (when it works) in other ways.  So it PROBABLY would be true in the other direction as well – IF you are helped by Meridia the odds would be good that Phen/Fen wouldn’t help you much (if you could get it).

Response:

My own belief is that the mechanisms involved are quite different.  If you were having success with phen/fen, this points heavily in the direction of problems with serotonin levels (Phen increases the release of serotonin, fen slows down the reabsobtion).

Phentermine is thought to act by releasing dopamine and retarding its reuptake.  I’ve never heard of it affecting serotonin. Meridia does not greatly affect the serotonin levels – it works (when it works) in other ways.

Siburamine is, like venlafaxine (Effexor), a NE/SRI, reducing the reuptake of both norepinephrine and serotonin. — Steve Dyer

Response:

Harold, I read what you wrote about Phentermine. You got it all wrong. I’d suggest reading the articles on Phentermine on the web site for Rx on the Internet. Love your Dutch name. I am Dutch also.   John Bowen   Nipomo, California   http://www.thegrid.net/jhbowen/life.htm  "Too bad the only people who know how to run this country are too   busy driving cabs and cutting hair." — George Burns

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phentermine releases stored norepinephrine. Main site of activity appears to be thecerebral cortex and the reticular activating system. Promotes nerve impulse transmissions by releasing stored norepinephrine from nerve terminals in the  brain.

I always understood amphetamine, phentermine and the like worked (to the extent that we know how any of these drugs "work") by enhancing the release and reducing the reuptake of dopamine, not NE. — Steve Dyer

Response:

phentermine releases stored norepinephrine. Main site of activity appears to be thecerebral cortex and the reticular activating system. Promotes nerve impulse transmissions by releasing stored norepinephrine from nerve terminals in the  brain.

Response:

Steve, Since sibutramine inhibits re-uptake of serotonin and dopamine, do you think that Wellbutrin (buproprion) would also work for weight loss since it is a dopamine-reuptake inhibitor?   Thanks! Cindy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – phentermine releases stored norepinephrine. Main site of activity appears to be thecerebral cortex and the reticular activating system. Promotes nerve impulse transmissions by releasing stored norepinephrine from nerve terminals in the  brain. I always understood amphetamine, phentermine and the like worked (to the extent that we know how any of these drugs "work") by enhancing the release and reducing the reuptake of dopamine, not NE. — Steve Dyer

Response:

Since sibutramine inhibits re-uptake of serotonin and dopamine, do you

Serotonin and norepinephrine. think that Wellbutrin (buproprion) would also work for weight loss since it is a dopamine-reuptake inhibitor?  

Although bupropion is one of the few antidepressants that rarely causes weight gain, and often causes a slight amount of weight loss in people taking it for depression, and even though it’s chemically related to the anorectic drug diethylpropion (Tenuate), I don’t think it’s a very powerful drug when it comes to weight loss. — Steve Dyer

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If one is already taking Prozac, is it safe to try Meridia? I used Fen/Phen and Prozac successfully with no side affects and had good results in  weight loss, FM pain relief, and depression control. My doctor is recommending Meridia, but would like to have me discontinue the Prozac, I’m worried about removing the Prozac. Have been advised by other doctors not to stop taking it because of previous "crashes" following attempts to come off it.

Response:

If one is already taking Prozac, is it safe to try Meridia?

Meridia product info specifically states "no Prozac." My doctor said the same thing. Weening off Prozac should help "crashes." This is conjecture…I "crashed" big time 4 weeks after stopping cold (only 20mg dose/day). It was not fun, but only lasted about 2 weeks. Waited another week before starting Meridia and am not having any difficulty. I used Fen/Phen and Prozac successfully with no side affects and had good results in  weight loss, FM pain relief, and depression control. My doctor is recommending Meridia, but would like to have me discontinue the Prozac, I’m worried about removing the Prozac. Have been advised by other doctors not to stop taking it because of previous "crashes" following attempts to come off it.

– Mary

Response:

I don’t know about Meridia, but if it’s like Phentermine you CAN’T take Prozac with it. Please refer to an MIT study posted at: http://drugawareness.org/MIT.html Appetite suppressants are MAO inhibitors and cause an internal battlefield when paired with anti-depressant drugs such as Prozac (or fenfluramine, the phen/fen combo we all know and love.) From the article: "Maher said that the information that appears on drug labels, in the   Physician’s Desk Reference and on package inserts that reach   consumers is negotiated between the manufacturer and the    FDA."When the labels for phentermine and Sudafed were negotiated,    their MAO inhibitory activity was not known or appreciated or    considered to be important. And apparently there was no requirement    for phentermine’s label to be updated 20 years ago when it was first    shown to be an MAO inhibitor," he said.    The new findings also probably explain why only a handful of the tens     of millions of patients outside America who took drugs in the     fenfluramine family without phentermine developed pulmonary     hypertension or heart valve lesions, and almost all of these people were     also taking other drugs that we have found are unrecognized MAO      inhibitors," he said." So, my advice would be to find out if Meridia (like all other appetite suppresants is an MAO inhibitor). If so, Prozac and Meridia can be a dangerous combination. Good luck – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If one is already taking Prozac, is it safe to try Meridia? Meridia product info specifically states "no Prozac." My doctor said the same thing. Weening off Prozac should help "crashes." This is conjecture…I "crashed" big time 4 weeks after stopping cold (only 20mg dose/day). It was not fun, but only lasted about 2 weeks. Waited another week before starting Meridia and am not having any difficulty. I used Fen/Phen and Prozac successfully with no side affects and had good results in  weight loss, FM pain relief, and depression control. My doctor is recommending Meridia, but would like to have me discontinue the Prozac, I’m worried about removing the Prozac. Have been advised by other doctors not to stop taking it because of previous "crashes" following attempts to come off it. — Mary

Response:

I don’t know about Meridia, but if it’s like Phentermine you CAN’T take Prozac with it.

There’s no absolute contraindication in taking phentermine with Prozac. Please refer to an MIT study posted at: http://drugawareness.org/MIT.html Appetite suppressants are MAO inhibitors and cause an internal battlefield when paired with anti-depressant drugs such as Prozac (or fenfluramine, the phen/fen combo we all know and love.)

Appetite suppressants like amphetamine and phentermine are "MAO inhibitors" only in an extremely restricted sense; one with unproven clinical relevance, despite the claims on that web page. The reason you wouldn’t want to take Prozac and Meridia together is that they both act as serotonin-reuptake inhibitors (with Meridia also acting as a norepinephrine-reuptake inhibitor.) — Steve Dyer

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Question:

Oh Blue, this is so true…. I was perfectly sane (cough cough cough) much however.  I would give my life for him… With Metta & Blessings,  Jehanne "It is good to have an end to journey toward;   but it is the journey that matters, in the end"             Ursula Le Guin

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says… you know, money tends to run in families. Maybe that’s biological too, like there’s a money gene or something. ..Don’t laugh, that’s the way these researchers think. On the lighter side, did you know that having children tends to run in families? If your parents didn’t have children, chances are you won’t either.

Did you know that insanity is hereditary?  You get it from your children. Bluebird oh, is *that* where it came from?

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you know, money tends to run in families. Maybe that’s biological too, like there’s a money gene or something. ..Don’t laugh, that’s the way these researchers think. On the lighter side, did you know that having children tends to run in families? If your parents didn’t have children, chances are you won’t either.

doh… Leslie — Mom always told me I could be whatever I wanted to be when I grew up, "within reason."  When I asked her what she meant by "within reason," she said, "You ask a lot of questions for a garbage man." – Jack Handey Visit My Website! http://www.flex.net/users/tuesday

Response:

it’s CATCHING!!!!!!!

for *real* well, i don’t suppose i’ve ever actually *driven* someone to depression, but i know it’s *really* hard to live with a depressive person, specially someone who wants to prove how unlovable they are. anna xxx

Response:

Owlgirl, Thanks for confirming something I long suspected!  lol Thanks for the chuckle. Brenda

Response:

you know, money tends to run in families. Maybe that’s biological too, like there’s a money gene or something. ..Don’t laugh, that’s the way these researchers think. On the lighter side, did you know that having children tends to run in families? If your parents didn’t have children, chances are you won’t either.

Response:

you know…both my parents (who, nb, are NOT my biologial parents) have depression and are on medication. Same with my ex-de facto, my uncle and aunt, and 3 close rl friends. I could never relate to it, but now, i’ve finally succumbed myself. aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrggggggghhhhhhhhhhh! this can only mean one thing: it’s CATCHING!!!!!!! warn all your friends and family….. owlgirl – who had a shitty aftyernoon, thanx to zoloft withdrawal, but who feels good cos you are all here, and is especially grateful for the posts from Cris/z, Eva Marisa, and kdaly. Thanx.  :)

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Question:

Ok, I have read all the literature I can find, and talked to my pharmacist and a doctor (not the psychiatrist who prescribed it because I know more about the drug than he does). All the "official" stuff tells me that serzone doesn’t affect sexual function. So why, since I have been on it, had by sex drive dropped off to next to nothing? And why is it more difficult for me to achieve orgasm. When I was on Zoloft, I had the same thing happen, but sexual disfunction is a side effect of Zoloft. Anyone have experiences similar to mine? (BTW, I have a different doctor prescribing my meds now). Thanks in advance, Ev emorgan <at slonet <dot org eem <at efn <dot org Replying to the header is futile. Junk e-mail will be illiminated. And for good measure: There is a $1000 US fee for unsolicited commercial e-mail to any of my aforementioned addresses. This is your only warning. Die NetScum! Die!

Response:

[posted and emailed] Ok, I have read all the literature I can find, and talked to my pharmacist and a doctor (not the psychiatrist who prescribed it because I know more about the drug than he does). All the "official" stuff tells me that serzone doesn’t affect sexual function. So why, since I have been on it, had by sex drive dropped off to next to nothing? And why is it more difficult for me to achieve orgasm. When I was on Zoloft, I had the same thing happen, but sexual disfunction is a side effect of Zoloft. Anyone have experiences similar to mine?

yes, only "statistically" does serzone not affect sexual function. that means it wasnt likely.. ‘cept in your case… what about wellbutrin? Thomas A. Ott http://www.geocities.com/heartland/5294 "All Things Are Possible Except Skiing Through A Revolving Door…" [remove "nospam." from my sig to respond...]

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Question:

The following link is with a collection of links about poisonous plants: http://www.ScienceOxygen.com/botany95.html It does not provide any answer directly. But you might start from there to check the associated information.

Response:

Hi All, I have been paging through the various seed catalogs and have seen a wide variety of flowers I’d love to grow.  I have been disappointed in many cases when I saw that Thompson & Morgan listed them as "poisonous".

Don’t be disappointed, it’s a fact that many plants are poisonous, and T&M are simply helping remind the reader of the fact. Two or three seeds of Ricinus can kill a child if eaten, and Aconitum plant fluids are very deadly, as may be the seeds as well. On the other hand, it would take eating a lot of Datura to kill anybody. Most of the buttercup family are fairly poisonous (Aconites, Ranunculus, Trollius, etc.). There are so many plants that are poisonous, though fewer are quickly fatal at small dosages, that it is not really feasible to eliminate them from one’s garden. I would avoid planting Castor beans and Aconites around children’s playgrounds, though, especially, and perhaps some other plants. It is generally wise to teach all children never to put any plants in their mouths. When I was a kid I remember sucking on honeysuckles and stuff we called ’sourgrass’ and lots of other things, with no ill effects. But kids may experiment beyond what local lore has as ‘edible’. Sucking the juice out of the friendly looking Lily of the Valley can be deadly.

Response:

I have been paging through the various seed catalogs and have seen a wide variety of flowers I’d love to grow.  I have been disappointed in many cases when I saw that Thompson & Morgan listed them as "poisonous". This is the case for datura, sweet peas, four o’ clocks, many varieties of nicotiana and others.  Other catalogs (Burpees, Select Seeds, WFF) do not give a similar warning for many of the flowers.  I’m not a toxicologist and have no way of knowing how "poisonous" these plants are. Can anyone shed some light on this subject?

Steve, When a plant is labeled as poisonous, the level of toxicity may not be known.  The range could be anything from deadly to just causing a mild rash. The toxicity of the plant should be considered in two major areas. The first deals with children and animals.  If you have children, they may come in contact, or even ingest, the plants in your garden.  The same is true for pets or farm animals.  The presence of poisonous plants needs to be considered. The second area of concern deals with the gardener’s safety.  Direct contact with the plants may cause negative effects.  Taking precautions like long sleeves and gloves may be all it takes.  The warning of being poisonous in the catalog may be just a flag for you to be careful. If toxicity is a concern before you buy, check out exactly what level of poisoning your dealing with on the plants and flowers you are considering.   For a general guide to toxicity of plants, check out "Take Care With Plants" at –          http://www.ucdmc.ucdavis.edu/poison_control/plants.html This is part of the internet edition The Poison Center Answer Book prepared by the University of California, Davis, Medical Center (UCDMC) Regional Poison Control Center. Hope this helps.  Good luck with your garden. Marc

Response:

Hi All, I have been paging through the various seed catalogs and have seen a wide variety of flowers I’d love to grow.  I have been disappointed in many cases when I saw that Thompson & Morgan listed them as "poisonous". This is the case for datura, sweet peas, four o’ clocks, many varieties of nicotiana and others.  Other catalogs (Burpees, Select Seeds, WFF) do not give a similar warning for many of the flowers.  I’m not a toxicologist and have no way of knowing how "poisonous" these plants are. Can anyone shed some light on this subject? Steve Cook Macungie, PA USDA

Many of the plants referred to as ‘poisonous’ are not very toxic. Some, like holly or mistletoe, will cause a mild stomach ache or the like.  Those plants that are very toxic should be considered carefully.  It is confusing when many varieties of plants are categorized as being toxic or poisonous when most of them aren’t really poisonous enough to be of any consequence.  If you have any doubt, ask a nurseryman in your area for advice.  For reference some common plants which are highly toxic are as follows:         Dieffenbachia         Oleander         Rhubarb (green parts of leaves)         Digitalis (foxgloves)         some cacti         most Solanum sp.         Datura (angel’s trumpets)         You should also consider that many plants with milky sap are also very toxic, as are the pits of many fruits (cyanide).  Even the rinds of some fruits like passion fruit have been found to be toxic enough for consideration.  Likewise, some plants often listed as poisonous, but not much so are as follows:         Philodendron         Grasses         Ficus

Response:

Hi All, I have been paging through the various seed catalogs and have seen a wide variety of flowers I’d love to grow.  I have been disappointed in many cases when I saw that Thompson & Morgan listed them as "poisonous". This is the case for datura, sweet peas, four o’ clocks, many varieties of nicotiana and others.  Other catalogs (Burpees, Select Seeds, WFF) do not give a similar warning for many of the flowers.  I’m not a toxicologist and have no way of knowing how "poisonous" these plants are. Can anyone shed some light on this subject?

Hi Steve, The warning of poisonous in your T&M catalogue is merely a courtesy, most catalogues don’t bother. Datura is a hallucinogenic (sp?), nicotanias contain nicotine and so on. (Although I’m curious about the sweet peas, I’ve never heard there was a problem with them) Don’t let the warning deter you from planting these plants. Most garden plants are only poisonous if they are eaten, not by handling. Even edible plants can be poisonous if not used correctly, for example, more that one tablespoon of fresh rosemary leaves can cause a toxic reaction in an adult human and rhubard *leaves* (not stalks) can cause internal bleeding, severe stomach cramps and poisoning. Some plants can kill, some can make you very sick, while others are perfectly safe. The only time you need to truly worry about this is when very young children will be in and around plantings. Children are very likely to put leaves and flowers into their mouths. Small children should never be left unattended in a garden where the possibility of poison exist. (Actually the period in that last sentence should probably fall after the word ‘garden’.) There are several books that refer to the toxicity of plants, unfortunately I don’t have any references for you, perhaps someone else will. The rule for anyone though is: never, *never*, NEVER eat from a plant, in the garden or the wild, unless you know exactly what it is and whether it is safe. But Steve, don’t let the poisonous label deter you from planting the flowers in your garden unless you have the above-mentioned small children. If you do, check out the edible flower thread that is currently going on. You can get some suggestions for ’safe’ plants there. Hope this helps Marianne — As soon as I have something important to say, I’ll put it here.

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I have been paging through the various seed catalogs and have seen a wide variety of flowers I’d love to grow.  I have been disappointed in many cases when I saw that Thompson & Morgan listed them as "poisonous". This is the case for datura, sweet peas, four o’ clocks, many varieties of nicotiana and others.  Other catalogs (Burpees, Select Seeds, WFF) do not give a similar warning for many of the flowers.  I’m not a toxicologist and have no way of knowing how "poisonous" these plants are. Can anyone shed some light on this subject?

The real question is whether it matters to you that the plants are poisonous. I guess the seed companies are just trying to protect themselves from dorks who try to sue them ("I added those Sweet Pea seeds to soup and they poisoned me – it’s your fault!"). There are few if any species which will harm you unless you actually eat the seeds or plant, and unless the plant actually looks attractive to eat, this is most unlikely (with the attractive berries of Deadly Nightshade – Atropa belladonna being an exception). So long as *you* aren’t going to eat the plant, and you are satisfied that young children won’t, then there’s little to worry about. I guess I didn’t answer your question of *how* poisonous they are! In the case of the deadly nightshade – very! I’d guess the Sweet Pea seeds are like many other dried pulses (peas/beans) that you can buy to eat – not good for you unless soaked and boiled. Nicotiana – they make cigarettes out of it. Datura – well discussed in recent threads, but a very attractive plant. I don’t know about Four o’clock – Mirabilis jalapa, except that I’ve seen the ‘poisonous’ notices on it too. — Clarke Brunt (CCB), Principal Software Engineer, Laser-Scan Ltd, Science Park, Milton Rd, CAMBRIDGE, CB4 4FY, England. Tel: (+44) (0)1223 420414; Fax: 420044

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Hi All, I have been paging through the various seed catalogs and have seen a wide variety of flowers I’d love to grow.  I have been disappointed in many cases when I saw that Thompson & Morgan listed them as "poisonous". This is the case for datura, sweet peas, four o’ clocks, many varieties of nicotiana and others.  Other catalogs (Burpees, Select Seeds, WFF) do not give a similar warning for many of the flowers.  I’m not a toxicologist and have no way of knowing how "poisonous" these plants are. Can anyone shed some light on this subject? Steve Cook Macungie, PA USDA Z6 — * Air Products and Chemicals, Inc.          Tel. (610) 481-2135     * * 7201 Hamilton Blvd.                       FAX  (610) 481-8803     * * Allentown, PA 18195                                               * * USA                                                               * *             Emacs – the choice of a GNU generation                * * Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are those of the author.  * *             Any resemblance between my opinions and those of Air  * *             Products is purely coincidental…                    *

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