Question:

Dear Joan, I am a Candida biologist. Candida albicans, a dimorphic fungus with yeast and hyphal (like other fungi) phases, is the major causative agent of thrush, followed by some other Candida species. WHile all organisms grow on sugars, Candida albicans thrives well on serum (which does have glucose in it of course as well) and on human tissues. Indeed if you stop cells from making the hyphal form, they are no longer infective. Serum in the absence of added sugars, promotes this invasive hyphal form. I think adding more sugar may stimulate the yeast form a bit-( hmm I never tried that experiment – adding more glucose to the serum plates). Candida is not like bakers yeast, and bakers yeast does not encourage the growth of Candida albicans. You can also consume sugar in normal quantities (if you’re not diaetic of course). The books that deal with candida cleansing diets are not supported by scientific studies. The scientific Candida community has analysed the theories and treatments proposed in these books (diets and the claims they make) They are unfounded. I have looked the studies up on medline myself- and I see that the authors of several books on the subject have made huge assumptions based on very very little data, and actually have thwarted the truth. A complete if not outdated book on Candida infections which even reviews the book "the yeast connection" is "Candida and Candidosis: A review and bibliography" (1989-I think) by FC Odds who was at Leeds in the UK for many years and is now at Jaansen (ie also own J&J) in belgium. He refuses to write a new edition. But his book  remains the most complete and unbiased medical book on the subject. It is out of print. I do have a photocopy of it, or libraries should be able to get you a copy. Medical Schools should have a copy or access to one. Every single study on Candida up to the pub. date is covered in that book- very factual. I have looked over all of the alternative suggestions proposed on this thread. None of them have proven to my knowledge. Definitely do not use any mouthwashs or treatments that kill the bacteria in you mouth. The bacteria help you to fight off thrush.  Gingivitiis is bacterial in origin- do not use washes that treat this. I even asked my pharmacist to confirm this when I had recurrent thrush. Lots of healthy garlic has been shown to kill candida and bacteria- but yikes (yes the scientific community acknowkedges this)- but actualy the studies are in vitro. No proof that consuming garlic helps -to my knowledge. Unfortunately, steroid inhalers I believe affect the same immune cells in the mouth that keep Candida at bay.  I had to switch from flovent (a stronger steroid) to azmacort (which does not work as well for me). Fungal infections are stubborn. 1) you want to treat the underlying cause if possible causes can include: being on antibiotics, diabetes immune disorders (i.e.AIDS) treatment with immunosuppressive agents (ie. us asthmatics) Chemotherapy dentures 2) You need to stick to the antifungal treatment until the thrush clears up, and also solve the underlying cause or it will just recur.  Why? The antifungals being used, do not kill the candida too well, but do stop them from growing (they can’t make their cell membranes). There may be some nongrowing cells that stick around and thus the infection can recur. You need to make sure those immune cells in the mouth are ok. So rinsing with water and using a spacer are critical with the steroid inhalers. Good Luck! Chilla ps. you could also have a drug resisitant strain of candida in your mouth . You could try other classes of antifungals. Nystatin vs. the azoles (like clortrimazole). These belong to different chemical classes

Response:

I didn’t intend to sound critical.  Just wanted to add to the pool of information.   SJ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Cleaning your inhalation paraphenalia is important but not enough, supplimenting that with scrupulous oral hygiene is at least as or more important.  Ask your doctor to prescribe "Chlorhexidine Gluconate" (oral rinse), generally prescribed by dentists for treating gingivititus and other infectious oral abnormalities, use both before and after inhaling meds.   Be aware, though, of the following information on the chlorhexidine box: "Chlorhexidine Gluconate Oral Rinse may cause some tooth discoloration, or increases in tarter (calculus) formation, particularly in areas where stain and tartar usually form.  It is important to see your dentist for removal of any stain or tartar at least every six months, or more frequently if your dentist advises." "Both stain and tartar can be removed by your dentist or hygientist. Chlorhexidine gluconate may cause permanent discoloration of some front-tooth fillings." I noticed definite tooth staining and filling discoloration after using it once a day for 2 weeks. SR That’s why I suggested frequent brushing and flossing, particularly with the Sensonic.  I’ve been adhereing to the aformentioned regimen for more than 3 years now, with no indication of out of the ordinary staining… and of course Clorhexidine gluconate, like any other prescription drug, would be used under the supervison of a physician, with all the same admonishments about reporting back immediately when any adverse conditions begin to occur.  Clorohexidine gluconate works for me, besides, it’s only a suggestion.   Sheldon On a recent Night Court rerun, Judge Harry Stone had a wonderful line: "I try to keep an open mind, but not so open that my brains fall out."

Response:

joan, i don’t know of anything else that you can take that would help prevent thrush. I do have a lot of patients on prednisone and steroid inhalers, but i have not seen as much problem with thrush as it is in your case. Just make sure that you don’t have diabetes or steroid induced hyperglycemia (elevated blood sugars). yatin j patel md http://md4lungs.com – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is there any remedy for thrush other than prescriptions like Mycelex or Nystatin? Does acidophilus really act as a preventative? I use a spacer with my inhaled Flovent and I rinse faithfully but keep getting thrush over and over again. Somebody must be buying a lot of acidophilus for some reason as even the pharmacies in my area are out of it. I am on Prednisone now, and I know it’s only a matter of days before I will have thrush once again. Can anybody offer any suggestions? If not, I guess it’s back to the doctor for another prescription drug. Joan

– Yatin J Patel MD http://md4lungs.com If you have asthma, this is your home. Join Dr. Patel every wednesday 7 PM Indiana Time for online chats. Before you buy.

Response:

* also try and keep your sugar and yeast intake as low as possible.. these help grow the yeast.

I do not think that this is accurate. It’s a terrible responsibility – but somebody has to be the Americans.

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I had thrush and my doctor told me that it was probably a result of the inhaled steroids rather than oral (I was on flovent too.)  What you need to do is rinse your mouth and throat after using your inhaler so the steroid is not sticking to the membranes in your mouth. Hope this helps. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is there any remedy for thrush other than prescriptions like Mycelex or Nystatin? Does acidophilus really act as a preventative? I use a spacer with my inhaled Flovent and I rinse faithfully but keep getting thrush over and over again. Somebody must be buying a lot of acidophilus for some reason as even the pharmacies in my area are out of it. I am on Prednisone now, and I know it’s only a matter of days before I will have thrush once again. Can anybody offer any suggestions? If not, I guess it’s back to the doctor for another prescription drug. Joan

Response:

i work in a health food store, and have tried a few natural remidies…(with all the other prescriptions i’m on, i don’t want another!) here are a few suggestions that i have found to work.. *Acidophilus.. i prefer PB8 but any with 10 billion or more active cultures is good *gargling with tea tree oil mouthwash or vinegar and water.. i actually do both sometimes, after i use my inhalers and after i brush my teeth. * also try and keep your sugar and yeast intake as low as possible.. these help grow the yeast.  these are more preventitive than a cure… but i have found that it does help, i have very infrequent problems now instead of every month or so… good luck!

Response:

Cleaning your inhalation paraphenalia is important but not enough, supplimenting that with scrupulous oral hygiene is at least as or more important.  Ask your doctor to prescribe "Chlorhexidine Gluconate" (oral rinse), generally prescribed by dentists for treating gingivititus and other infectious oral abnormalities, use both before and after inhaling meds.  

Be aware, though, of the following information on the chlorhexidine box: "Chlorhexidine Gluconate Oral Rinse may cause some tooth discoloration, or increases in tarter (calculus) formation, particularly in areas where stain and tartar usually form.  It is important to see your dentist for removal of any stain or tartar at least every six months, or more frequently if your dentist advises." "Both stain and tartar can be removed by your dentist or hygientist. Chlorhexidine gluconate may cause permanent discoloration of some front-tooth fillings." I noticed definite tooth staining and filling discoloration after using it once a day for 2 weeks. SR

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Cleaning your inhalation paraphenalia is important but not enough, supplimenting that with scrupulous oral hygiene is at least as or more important.  Ask your doctor to prescribe "Chlorhexidine Gluconate" (oral rinse), generally prescribed by dentists for treating gingivititus and other infectious oral abnormalities, use both before and after inhaling meds.   Be aware, though, of the following information on the chlorhexidine box: "Chlorhexidine Gluconate Oral Rinse may cause some tooth discoloration, or increases in tarter (calculus) formation, particularly in areas where stain and tartar usually form.  It is important to see your dentist for removal of any stain or tartar at least every six months, or more frequently if your dentist advises." "Both stain and tartar can be removed by your dentist or hygientist. Chlorhexidine gluconate may cause permanent discoloration of some front-tooth fillings." I noticed definite tooth staining and filling discoloration after using it once a day for 2 weeks. SR

That’s why I suggested frequent brushing and flossing, particularly with the Sensonic.  I’ve been adhereing to the aformentioned regimen for more than 3 years now, with no indication of out of the ordinary staining… and of course Clorhexidine gluconate, like any other prescription drug, would be used under the supervison of a physician, with all the same admonishments about reporting back immediately when any adverse conditions begin to occur.  Clorohexidine gluconate works for me, besides, it’s only a suggestion.   Sheldon On a recent Night Court rerun, Judge Harry Stone had a wonderful line: "I try to keep an open mind, but not so open that my brains fall out."

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I’m just guessing here but would yogurt (With live cultures) help?  How about a vinegar and water mouthwash?  Just trying to remember what the natural remedies for yeast problems are. While they don’t usually work well as a cure, maybe as a preventive? Jo An Firey * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

Is there any remedy for thrush other than prescriptions like Mycelex or Nystatin? Does acidophilus really act as a preventative? I use a spacer with my inhaled Flovent and I rinse faithfully but keep getting thrush over and over again. Somebody must be buying a lot of acidophilus for some reason as even the pharmacies in my area are out of it. I am on Prednisone now, and I know it’s only a matter of days before I will have thrush once again. Can anybody offer any suggestions? If not, I guess it’s back to the doctor for another prescription drug.

Cleaning your inhalation paraphenalia is important but not enough, supplimenting that with scrupulous oral hygiene is at least as or more important.  Ask your doctor to prescribe "Chlorhexidine Gluconate" (oral rinse), generally prescribed by dentists for treating gingivititus and other infectious oral abnormalities, use both before and after inhaling meds.  Also, Colgate Palmolive’s "Peroxyl" (nonprescription) is a very good oral antiseptic, with the benefit of being pleasant-tasting, especially effective when used right before bedtime, after you’re brushed and flossed.  You might also want to seriously consider treating yourself to Teledyne Water Pik’s "SENSONIC" tooth brush, an excellent product, leagues ahead of any ordinary toothbrush, even the other mundane electric toothbrushes. I used to really suffer with constant bouts of thrush but no more after adopting the above regimen, a much better alternative to guzzling liter after liter of Nystatin, BLECH! Sheldon On a recent Night Court rerun, Judge Harry Stone had a wonderful line: "I try to keep an open mind, but not so open that my brains fall out."

Response:

Is there any remedy for thrush other than prescriptions like Mycelex or Nystatin? Does acidophilus really act as a preventative? I use a spacer with my inhaled Flovent and I rinse faithfully but keep getting thrush over and over again. Somebody must be buying a lot of acidophilus for some reason as even the pharmacies in my area are out of it. I am on Prednisone now, and I know it’s only a matter of days before I will have thrush once again. Can anybody offer any suggestions? If not, I guess it’s back to the doctor for another prescription drug. Joan

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Question:

    I’ve recently started taking Serevent and Flovent. In spite of rinsing my mouth after each use I have some rough, whitish, patches in my mouth. Can this be thrush? My Dr. prescribed antibiotics but it seems to be getting worse and now I’m wondering… If this is Thrush, isn’t it related to yeast infection? I know that antibiotics can cause yeast infections. I need to call the Dr. back this morning but I’m wondering if it’s time for a new Dr…. Debi

I’ve had Asthma for years and years.  The inhalers can cause thrush and I’ve had it a time or two. I’ve got a habit of taking the inhalers without actually getting out of bed in the middle of the night.  Once I took the pills that they give you for other yeast infections when it was fairly severe.  Usually There is a mouthwash that is prescribed that will kill off the yeast.  (Also when I’ve had thrush it’s been more in by thriat than in my mouth.)  Also, I’ve used the inhalers for 20+ years and have only had thrush maybe four times. Also, take it easy on your mouth.  A sip of water or swish is enough. Your mouth could be irritated from over brushing or from too harsh toothpaste and mouthwash ingredients.  The worst mouth problems I’ve had were caused by an anti-tartar mouthwash my former dentist pushed. My current dentist says lots of prople can’t tolerate them. Jo Before you buy.

Response:

No, it’s time to inform your Dr. about your symptoms.  If, upon examination, your Dr. determines you do indeed have Thrush there are various medicinal remedys available, as well as personal hygiene regimens you can adhere to for lessening the possiblity of future Thrush outbreaks.  Preventing Thrush outbreaks is much more your responsibility than your Dr.’s.

     Maybe you can help me. The insert that came with the medication said to rinse my mouth with water. I’ve been doing that and then brushing and flossing. What else should I be doing?     I’m still waiting for a call back from the Dr.’s office. Debi

Response:

(Debi) writes: No, it’s time to inform your Dr. about your symptoms.  If, upon examination, your Dr. determines you do indeed have Thrush there are various medicinal remedys available, as well as personal hygiene regimens you can adhere to for lessening the possiblity of future Thrush outbreaks.  Preventing Thrush outbreaks is much more your responsibility than your Dr.’s. Maybe you can help me. The insert that came with the medication said to rinse my mouth with water. I’ve been doing that and then brushing and flossing.

That may help in preventing a Thrush episode form occuring but will do nothing to control it once it’s begun. What else should I be doing?    I’m still waiting for a call back from the Dr.’s office.

You need to be seen by a medical professional as quickly as possible.  The longer a Thrush outbreak is left unattended the more difficult it is to place into remission.  If your regular health care professional can’t see you, recommend a covering physician or prescribe something over the phone, for whatever reason, then proceed to seek help elsewhere…. maybe your local hospital ER.  The white patches seen inside your mouth are not so problematic as those not so easily seen, those deeper down in your throat. Sheldon On a recent Night Court rerun, Judge Harry Stone had a wonderful line: "I try to keep an open mind, but not so open that my brains fall out."

Response:

    I’ve recently started taking Serevent and Flovent. In spite of rinsing my mouth after each use I have some rough, whitish, patches in my mouth. Can this be thrush? My Dr. prescribed antibiotics but it seems to be getting worse and now I’m wondering… If this is Thrush, isn’t it related to yeast infection? I know that antibiotics can cause yeast infections. I need to call the Dr. back this morning but I’m wondering if it’s time for a new Dr…. Debi

Response:

(Debi) writes:   I’ve recently started taking Serevent and Flovent. In spite of rinsing my mouth after each use I have some rough, whitish, patches in my mouth. Can this be thrush?

Probably so. My Dr. prescribed antibiotics but it seems to be getting worse and now I’m wondering… If this is Thrush, isn’t it related to yeast infection?

Thrush IS a yeast infection. I know that antibiotics can cause yeast infections. I need to call the Dr. back this morning but I’m wondering if it’s time for a new Dr…. Debi

No, it’s time to inform your Dr. about your symptoms.  If, upon examination, your Dr. determines you do indeed have Thrush there are various medicinal remedys available, as well as personal hygiene regimens you can adhere to for lessening the possiblity of future Thrush outbreaks.  Preventing Thrush outbreaks is much more your responsibility than your Dr.’s. Sheldon On a recent Night Court rerun, Judge Harry Stone had a wonderful line: "I try to keep an open mind, but not so open that my brains fall out."

Response:

Anyone here ever get oral thrush from using Albuterol? I have had a devil of a time.  Coated toungue and roof-of-mouth sores.  Also some kind of virus (feels like a cold) which has knocked me out. I have "exercise-induced" asthma (reactive airwaves) and take a few puffs of Albuterol before walking on treadmill, etc. This is the only thing I can think that could have caused the thrush (yes, I know I "should" have been rinsing my mouth out) and not rinsing after has been a hard lesson to learn. Doc gave me Nystain and Diflucan.  Seems to be clearing up, but I feel like crap.  Not sure if that is a result of the meds or the virus. Ugh.  Anybody have experience with this? — Sal Sessa / Events Photography Dallas, TX / USA

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We started adding Acidophilus tablets to our daughters milk every morning. It’s a capsule so it can be opened and dumped.  I’m sure an adult can just take it like a regular pill. It adds the normal flora back to the body that can help prevent yeast infections.  It’s worked well to keep down the thrush in her mouth as well as the yeast infections in her privates. Ursula – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anyone here ever get oral thrush from using Albuterol? I have had a devil of a time.  Coated toungue and roof-of-mouth sores. Also some kind of virus (feels like a cold) which has knocked me out. I have "exercise-induced" asthma (reactive airwaves) and take a few puffs of Albuterol before walking on treadmill, etc. This is the only thing I can think that could have caused the thrush (yes, I know I "should" have been rinsing my mouth out) and not rinsing after has been a hard lesson to learn. Doc gave me Nystain and Diflucan.  Seems to be clearing up, but I feel like crap.  Not sure if that is a result of the meds or the virus. Ugh.  Anybody have experience with this? — Sal Sessa / Events Photography Dallas, TX / USA

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We started adding Acidophilus tablets to our daughters milk every morning.

Thanks. I’m doing the same.  Also trying to avoid the little beasties favorite foods, e.g., sugars, milk, starches, etc. — Sal Sessa / Events Photography Dallas, TX / USA

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Try using an AEROCHAMBER, they have been proven in multiple studies to reduce oropharyngeal deposition over and over again. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anyone here ever get oral thrush from using Albuterol? I have had a devil of a time.  Coated toungue and roof-of-mouth sores.  Also some kind of virus (feels like a cold) which has knocked me out. I have "exercise-induced" asthma (reactive airwaves) and take a few puffs of Albuterol before walking on treadmill, etc. This is the only thing I can think that could have caused the thrush (yes, I know I "should" have been rinsing my mouth out) and not rinsing after has been a hard lesson to learn. Doc gave me Nystain and Diflucan.  Seems to be clearing up, but I feel like crap.  Not sure if that is a result of the meds or the virus. Ugh.  Anybody have experience with this? — Sal Sessa / Events Photography Dallas, TX / USA

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Albuterol does nothing to affect the oral flora and is not an immune modulator and thus cannot cause thrush. I don’ think that thrush makes one systemically ill but I am not certain of this. Other things can of course.

That’s what I thought also! I guess it must be a virus that I have, and what I think is thrush is actually just "cold sores," or something. Doctor said "thrush," though. Thanks. — Sal Sessa / Events Photography Dallas, TX / USA

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Thrush does coat your tongue and throat with white areas.  I believe that we were told that Asthmacort and not Proventil can cause it…..the aerochamber works for our son. As well as washing his mouth out. — Suzie Politeness is the art of choosing among one’s real thoughts. —  Abel Stevens

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Albuterol is not clinically shown to cause thrush. Are you taking any other medications?

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Albuterol is not clinically shown to cause thrush. Are you taking any other medications?

Not really.  A little Flonase here and there, but lately almost "none" to speak of. I really don’t know how I got it (gone now, thanks to Nystatin & Diflucan.) Got a virus along with it that lasted about 10 days. Go figure. — Sal Sessa / Events Photography Dallas, TX / USA

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If you have systemic Candida, the nystain and Diflucan would cause burn off which would make you feel like crap. check this web sit and you’ll learn about Candida – http://infoseek.go.com/?win=_search&sv=M6&lk=noframes&nh=10&ud9=IE5&q… da&oq=&url=http%3A//www.panix.com/%7Ecandida/&ti=The+Candida+Page&top= .  A friend of mine had the very same thing and he is going through Candid treatment.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anyone here ever get oral thrush from using Albuterol? I have had a devil of a time.  Coated toungue and roof-of-mouth sores. Also some kind of virus (feels like a cold) which has knocked me out. I have "exercise-induced" asthma (reactive airwaves) and take a few puffs of Albuterol before walking on treadmill, etc. This is the only thing I can think that could have caused the thrush (yes, I know I "should" have been rinsing my mouth out) and not rinsing after has been a hard lesson to learn. Doc gave me Nystain and Diflucan.  Seems to be clearing up, but I feel like crap.  Not sure if that is a result of the meds or the virus. Ugh.  Anybody have experience with this? — Sal Sessa / Events Photography Dallas, TX / USA

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Oh another good product which I use is Yeast Defense.  You can get it in the nutrition part of your supermarket.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We started adding Acidophilus tablets to our daughters milk every morning. Thanks. I’m doing the same.  Also trying to avoid the little beasties favorite foods, e.g., sugars, milk, starches, etc. — Sal Sessa / Events Photography Dallas, TX / USA

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Jackie, That’s really interesting and a new one for me.  I’m so glad there was something you could put together and that it did help. God Bless, Judy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks, Judy! I did finally speak with a nurse and she suggested a home solution to tide us over until I can get out to get it (DH got home too late to pick it up). Because this is the first prescription I’ve needed for the baby, the pharmacy needs my insurance card and of course the pharmacy (CVS) where the prescription was called in to doesn’t do deliveries ( For anybody else out there who might be interested in the home remedy, here it is: 1/4 tsp. of Baking Soda 1 to 2 drops of Ivory Liquid (YES, dish soap… almost any brand of the liquid dish soaps will do) 8 ounces of water Mix thoroughly and apply (with a soft face cloth) to affected areas. So far so good, almost immediately at his next feeding he was eating better and I am making sure that I rinse myself off after each nursing session so we don’t keep passing it back and forth! — Jackie M. SAHM to four wonderful kids: 9.5 (girl), 8 (girl), 21 months (boy), and 2 months (boy)!! Jackie, from my search, it appears you will have to use a prescription (Nystatin) from the doctor.  Many pharmacies deliver.  Are there any in your area that might deliver & save you from dragging all the munchkins out into the snow?  That way the doctor could just phone something in & you could have it sent out. Hugs, Judy It’s been about 8 years since I’ve had to deal with any baby having thrush — my eldest never had it, nor did my now 21 month old son. Now, apparently, at 2 months, I notice it on my son’s tongue — only his tongue. It’s not on the roof or sides of his mouth, but there is some whitish film on the insides of his lips. I’ve put a call into the pediatrician and am STILL waiting to hear back if they can call a prescription in, but I know there has to be something that can be done at home for this — right now it’s snowing at about 2 inches per hour and I am NOT really all that thrilled about popping all four kids into the car and going to the pharmacy in this weather! HELP! — Jackie M. SAHM to four wonderful kids: 9.5 (girl), 8 (girl), 21 months (boy), and 2 months (boy)!!

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Thanks, Judy! I did finally speak with a nurse and she suggested a home solution to tide us over until I can get out to get it (DH got home too late to pick it up). Because this is the first prescription I’ve needed for the baby, the pharmacy needs my insurance card and of course the pharmacy (CVS) where the prescription was called in to doesn’t do deliveries ( For anybody else out there who might be interested in the home remedy, here it is: 1/4 tsp. of Baking Soda 1 to 2 drops of Ivory Liquid (YES, dish soap… almost any brand of the liquid dish soaps will do) 8 ounces of water Mix thoroughly and apply (with a soft face cloth) to affected areas. So far so good, almost immediately at his next feeding he was eating better and I am making sure that I rinse myself off after each nursing session so we don’t keep passing it back and forth! — Jackie M. SAHM to four wonderful kids: 9.5 (girl), 8 (girl), 21 months (boy), and 2 months (boy)!!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jackie, from my search, it appears you will have to use a prescription (Nystatin) from the doctor.  Many pharmacies deliver.  Are there any in your area that might deliver & save you from dragging all the munchkins out into the snow?  That way the doctor could just phone something in & you could have it sent out. Hugs, Judy It’s been about 8 years since I’ve had to deal with any baby having thrush — my eldest never had it, nor did my now 21 month old son. Now, apparently, at 2 months, I notice it on my son’s tongue — only his tongue. It’s not on the roof or sides of his mouth, but there is some whitish film on the insides of his lips. I’ve put a call into the pediatrician and am STILL waiting to hear back if they can call a prescription in, but I know there has to be something that can be done at home for this — right now it’s snowing at about 2 inches per hour and I am NOT really all that thrilled about popping all four kids into the car and going to the pharmacy in this weather! HELP! — Jackie M. SAHM to four wonderful kids: 9.5 (girl), 8 (girl), 21 months (boy), and 2 months (boy)!!

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Jackie, from my search, it appears you will have to use a prescription (Nystatin) from the doctor.  Many pharmacies deliver.  Are there any in your area that might deliver & save you from dragging all the munchkins out into the snow?  That way the doctor could just phone something in & you could have it sent out. Hugs, Judy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It’s been about 8 years since I’ve had to deal with any baby having thrush — my eldest never had it, nor did my now 21 month old son. Now, apparently, at 2 months, I notice it on my son’s tongue — only his tongue. It’s not on the roof or sides of his mouth, but there is some whitish film on the insides of his lips. I’ve put a call into the pediatrician and am STILL waiting to hear back if they can call a prescription in, but I know there has to be something that can be done at home for this — right now it’s snowing at about 2 inches per hour and I am NOT really all that thrilled about popping all four kids into the car and going to the pharmacy in this weather! HELP! — Jackie M. SAHM to four wonderful kids: 9.5 (girl), 8 (girl), 21 months (boy), and 2 months (boy)!!

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It’s been about 8 years since I’ve had to deal with any baby having thrush — my eldest never had it, nor did my now 21 month old son.  Now, apparently, at 2 months, I notice it on my son’s tongue — only his tongue. It’s not on the roof or sides of his mouth, but there is some whitish film on the insides of his lips. I’ve put a call into the pediatrician and am STILL waiting to hear back if they can call a prescription in, but I know there has to be something that can be done at home for this — right now it’s snowing at about 2 inches per hour and I am NOT really all that thrilled about popping all four kids into the car and going to the pharmacy in this weather! HELP! — Jackie M. SAHM to four wonderful kids: 9.5 (girl), 8 (girl), 21 months (boy), and 2 months (boy)!!

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Question:

Hello is something happening in here Pleased request my question

Response:

recently replied to a question from Dawn Waker who was hoping to power a Macintosh Notebook from a 12VDC electrical system. George Schemm stated that 2 LM317T adjustable voltage regulators parralleled together could be used to supply 7.5 volts at 2 amps from the 12vdc supply. I am interested in building the same circuit but have not been able to find out how the LM317T should be wired up.  I have tried Radiospares but they do not have a Data sheet on this integrated circuit. than one pound sterling each this must be a very cost effective solution to the problem. I expect that the circuit will be very simple and will require few components. Any assistance with such a circuit would be greatly appreciated. — Barry Harvey

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My friedn (we both have asthma) has been struggling along for some time with both inhaled & oral steroids.  Her GP (we live in the UK) has started her with Singulair and she is at present (touch wood etc.) off the oral stuff, which has to be better for her than previously.  She has been on it a couple of weeks, though I don’t know how long her response took.  Singulair has only arrived in the UK since last time I saw my GP so I can’t currently have any personal experience. We wait to see her long-term outlook on Singulair. Note the posts saying that some people have no response at all to Singulair & Accolate. writes Hi, Hope newcomers are welcome. I have just discovered this ng. I have had asthma for a long time and recently my internist put me on Accolate. I am interested to hear from others on this medication and their response to it. Has it been effective? How long did it take to help? Also, has anyone been on Allergra? Has it helped? Thanks. Peace,                nyteowl

– Surfer! http://www.nevis-vieww.demon.co.uk http://www.nevis-vieww.demon.co.uk/flash Hopeful anti-spam: alter double ‘w’ to single ‘w’ to view site & send Email.

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Hi, Hope newcomers are welcome.

Newcomers are welcome. I have just discovered this ng. I have had asthma for a long time and recently my internist put me on Accolate. I am interested to hear from others on this medication and their response to it. Has it been effective? How long did it take to help?

Accolate seems to be a ‘wonder drug’ for about 1/3 of the people who try it, shows some results for another 1/3, and does absolutely nothing for the last third.  A very few people taking it have had elevated liver enzymes and had to stop.  Some doctors feel that this is something that should be checked and others apparently do not. Also, has anyone been on Allergra? Has it helped?

I have tried Allegera and noticed that it helps my allergies during ‘hay fever’ season but have not really noticed a detectable asthma improvement.

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of weeks to feel the difference.  As for the drawbacks, you must make sure that you take it 2-3 hrs. before or after eating.  It doesn’t metabolize well and have the strongest affect if taken with food.

Actually it is the other way around.  Accolate should not be taken within 1 hour before a meal or 2 hours after. Taking Accolate during this time peroid reduces the effectivness of the medication by 40%.  (Source: Pharmicist’s Data Sheet for Accolate).

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 I have just discovered this ng. I have had asthma for a long time and recently my internist put me on Accolate. I am interested to hear from others on this medication and their response to it. Has it been effective? How long did it take to help?

I don’t take Accolate, so I can’t be any help there.  Also, has anyone been on Allergra? Has it helped?

I do take Allegra for allergies.  It is God’s own gift! Chris Owens

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Hi and welcome. THere has been a lot of discussion, info, etc on Accolate and Singulair – a newvomer that has a similar mechanism. posts thatn may not be carried on our newserver any longer. Hi,  Hope newcomers are welcome.  I have just discovered this ng. I have had asthma for a long time and recently my internist put me on Accolate. I am interested to hear from others on this medication and their response to it. Has it been effective? How long did it take to help?

there are two kinds of responses: some people have incredible results and they can occur in a few days. the majority improve on these meds but it can take a month or so to be sure.  So take your  whole scrip before making a decision.  BTE, about a third of patients show absolutely NO response to these drugs. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  Also, has anyone been on Allergra? Has it helped?  Thanks.  Peace,                 nyteowl

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Hi,  Hope newcomers are welcome.  I have just discovered this ng. I have had asthma for a long time and recently my internist put me on Accolate. I am interested to hear from others on this medication and their response to it. Has it been effective? How long did it take to help?  Also, has anyone been on Allergra? Has it helped?  Thanks.  Peace,                 nyteowl

Response:

Hi nyteowl: Welcome… in response to your post, I was on Accolate for 16 months.  I found it very effective and had no problems with it.  I was recently taken off it and have now been put on Singular. Accolate has a few drawbacks to it, and don’t be surprised if you don’t feel the results immediately.  It usually will take a few days to even a couple of weeks to feel the difference.  As for the drawbacks, you must make sure that you take it 2-3 hrs. before or after eating.  It doesn’t metabolize well and have the strongest affect if taken with food.  Also, one of the side effects is a high liver enzyme count.  Make sure your doctor takes blood tests to monitor this.  I had no problems, and if a problem does occur, usually by stopping it for a few days will lower the count, thus allowing you to begin taking it again.  Accolate must also be taken twice a day.  What I found when taking it, and again this is just me,( as I’m sure others have different experiences ) is that at times I had problems sleeping (no asthma symptoms), sometimes I had a bigger appetite and craved sweets (which I don’t eat).  Most of this occurred when I first went on it.  I had a few severe asthma attacks, that was brought on by a cold/infection which put me into the hospital for a week.  There was no warning of an attack, which Accolate is supposed to help, but not stop the attack. As for Singular, I’ve been on it for a month now and it’s so much better for me.  It’s taken at night only, and you can take it with food.  I sleep great, feel stronger and don’t have any tightness at all.  My peak flows have improved almost 50%, and I use my inhaler 1X a day, 2 puffs. There are no found side effects (liver or other), and I haven’t had any asthma attacks or breathing difficulties. Good Luck,          -Althea

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Hello. I have a daughter 7 y/o 2 week ago she was at hospital with the type I diabetes what shall I do? what can I do? Is it possible to convert my daughter from type I to type II ? Can my daughter  100% or partly  be cured? I need ANY INFORMATION Thank You.

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Hello. I have a daughter 7 y/o 2 week ago she was at hospital with the type I diabetes what shall I do? what can I do? Is it possible to convert my daughter from type I to type II ? Can my daughter  100% or partly  be cured? I need ANY INFORMATION Thank You.

You can find a lot of information at http://www.jdfcure.org which is the Juvenile Diabetes Foundation International. Jude —                  - Coming Soon –  BestOrgs.NET         Oak Park, IL  708-848-0134  URL: http://www.pobox.com/~jcrouch

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Hello Eduard Hello.  I am new to this newsgroup but have been a diabetic since I was 14, am 30 now.  I remember when I was diagnosed, my father felt completely frustrated and helpless.  But, my step mother went through the steps with me to learn to deal with diabetes.  We learned together to take shots, meal plans, exercise, etc.  It was nice to have someone there learning with me. It was also nice cause if I didnt feel like taking the shot myself, she could give it to me. I am not always the best diabetic, and being a father now I know there is nothing I can say that will completely relieve your fears for your daughter. But what I can say is that if you take the time to learn about diabetes with her, and make sure she follows the plan and makes her diabetes care a routine;  that she will become stronger from it and be able to manage as healthy lifestyle as another other child.  Maybe even healthier because she will be following a good strong diet. I wish the best for you and your daughter. Jim — Captain {OTH}, Ouch, That H3RTZ http://othserver.coxinet.net/ MARS Cars-2, Nascar 3 Driver #147 http://www.mars-racing.com/ http://members.tripod.com/rage613mars/

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello. I have a daughter 7 y/o 2 week ago she was at hospital with the type I diabetes what shall I do? what can I do? Is it possible to convert my daughter from type I to type II ? Can my daughter  100% or partly  be cured? I need ANY INFORMATION Thank You.

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Hello. I have a daughter 7 y/o 2 week ago she was at hospital with the type I diabetes what shall I do? what can I do?

Hi Eduard, First of all calm down, and take a deep breath. No need for this much stress on your part or to pass panic messages to your child through your behavior. I’m sure you’ll get plenty of answers about diabetes, but I’m going to talk to you about being the parent of a "different" child, and coping with the unexpected. While my son was not diabetic, he had many other problems. I remember feeling like you are right now when my son was diagnosed as a dwarf with a predicted adult height of slightly over 4 feet, and facing daily injections of growth hormone. What you can and will do, it educate yourself about your daughters condition. I know you asked for messages to be posted to your personal mail, but you need also to stay with this group, alt.support.diabetes and read lots of messages. You can get information about diabetes from your duaghter’s medical team, and your local diabetes assn, but I promise you you’ll learn faster here, and you’ll come to understand what your daughter is going through faster. What you can also do is remember your daughter is still the person she was before and parent her. Some parents tend to freak on medical issues and forget to do stuff like read bedtime stories, go to the park to play, and those kinds of things. Keep your life as normal as possible. Expect your daughter to be able to live as normal a life as possible, so you don’t handicap her with limited expectations. Please write us again and tell us what you feel powerless to cope with or what actions you want to take that you can’t figure out how to accomplish. Maybe then we could give you greater support. Is it possible to convert my daughter from type I to type II ?

No. Not anymore likely than saying I’d rather my daughter’s left arm was borken instead of her right. Can we do that doctor?  Of course not. Can my daughter  100% or partly  be cured?

Not today, but we all hope for a cure in our lifetimes. There is promising research out there. Carol D.

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I am struggling here and am grateful that there are some understanding folks on this site.  Was diagnosed last Oct. and am still trying to get the medication right (comfortable???).  Finally, I am trying Lithium.  The only problem is, we(my doc and I) thought I was having this weird side effect so we are slowly weaning me off it to see if this side effect subsides. Therefore, I am taking a very low dose and even prior to this I was low because I was awaiting my blood levels as this is new med for me. What I want to ask is this, have any of you experienced headaches on Lith. How about weight gain.  Wanting to eat more?  Do you take this med with other medication?   would you consider Lithium a MS?  What effect does it have on depression ?  Alas, have any of you experienced sleep disruption on it?  The latter problem i have experienced recently.

Hi Debie, I hope your treatment goes smoothly and your pdocs can work well with you. I was on lith for about 5 months. It didn’t work all that well for me but its a long story I tell in another post… It was the first aproved mood stablizer that worked with out sedating the heck out of people. But it is a very strong CNS depresant drug.  I had some sleep problems and some sleep improvement on lithium.  The time release formulation is far superior and will give a dose of the drug upfront.  Lith does make most people drowsy. But its not activly targeting brain areas that have to do with sleep. Like the benzodiphine receptors. As a sleeping pill its not very good. But when I was on it  (the normal version) I would sometimes become intencely sleepy about an hour or so after taking it. This drug will alter your sleep. I had real problems waking up in the middle of the night and not being able to get back to sleep. Taking higher doses of lithium at night will really screw up your sleep because of its strong CNS depresant effect. If you have ocational sleep problems I would ask your pdoc for newer sleep medicine like temazapam or ambiem. They both have short half lifes so you generaly don’t have a hangover. You might also try trazodone. Most pdocs will give this out first. Its an older sedating antidepresant that works ok for sleep at low non theraputic doses. Its not a drug that you can keep upping the dose with for sleep problems with out experencing hangovers. A lot of people take trazodone every night just for sleep. If it doesn’t work for you TELL your pdoc and look at the alternatives and their risks. Some other benzodiphine drugs that are also used for sleep are clonazapam (klonipin) or lorazipam (antivan). Klonipin has strong anti convulsant properties so can be uses as "night time mood stablizer". All benzo drugs have the risk of dependance if you keep using them at higher doses. I hope this helps. Reid

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Hi Debbie, I’ll try to keep this really short.  I hate long posts. I don’t want to discourage you, but I was diagnosed five years ago, and I’m still trying to find the right cocktail of drugs.  I can tell you for certain, the ONLY mood stabilizer I responded to right off the bat was Lithium.  It was "the" miracle" drug for me.  Now years later, they’ve added Tegratol into the mix.   As far as sides go, the only time I had them was when my last doctor damn near killed me with toxicity.  He had me on way too much.  I experienced heavy discusting sweating, body twitches, and the worst was the hand tremors.  I couldn’t even sign my own name.  The other major one was vision imparement.  Now these are side effects of toxicity.  Not normal routine dosages.   Now I’ll try to answer your other questions:  I have migraines.  Always have so I don’t know if Lithium makes them worse.  They’re unpredictable at best.  Weight gain?  Not really.  I’ve been this weight for forever… always a bit over.  The med regimine I’m on now consist of 1200mg Lithium, 800m. Tegratol, 150mg. Wellbutrin, and 100-200mg of Trazodone.  The last is for sleep purposes only.  Having said that, you need to also know that I take other meds for other conditions.  How they play into the BP mix is anyone’s guess.  Confusion and memory problems for me are a constant… with or without meds. One very important thing to note with Lithium usage, is to get your blood levels drawn regularly.  I have mine done every 3 months.  And I’ve failed to keep this short. <g I wish you the very best.  And should you have any questions at all, please feel free to email me. Linda (Briteyes) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am struggling here and am grateful that there are some understanding folks on this site.  Was diagnosed last Oct. and am still trying to get the medication right (comfortable???).  Finally, I am trying Lithium.  The only problem is, we(my doc and I) thought I was having this weird side effect so we are slowly weaning me off it to see if this side effect subsides. Therefore, I am taking a very low dose and even prior to this I was low because I was awaiting my blood levels as this is new med for me. What I want to ask is this, have any of you experienced headaches on Lith. How about weight gain.  Wanting to eat more?  Do you take this med with other medication?   would you consider Lithium a MS?  What effect does it have on depression ?  Alas, have any of you experienced sleep disruption on it?  The latter problem i have experienced recently. I have lots of confusion and some memory problems.  I do not know if this is the nature of bp or if the meds I have taken are the cause.  I am tired of this whole business and am STILL trying to accept that I have this illness. There are not a whole lot of folks out here who I can discuss this with. Again, I am grateful I can discuss this with you.  Thanks for sharing your experience-Debbie N

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I am struggling here and am grateful that there are some understanding folks on this site.

Welcome,  Debbie. Tristana

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Hi Debbie, Welcome to ASDM. I am struggling here and am grateful that there are some understanding folks on this site.  Was diagnosed last Oct. and am still trying to get the medication right (comfortable???).  Finally, I am trying Lithium.  The only problem is, we(my doc and I) thought I was having this weird side effect so we are slowly weaning me off it to see if this side effect subsides. Therefore, I am taking a very low dose and even prior to this I was low because I was awaiting my blood levels as this is new med for me.

That is the prudent action to take. Have you discussed other medication options. There are 20 meds from which to chosse today. What I want to ask is this, have any of you experienced headaches on Lith.

It can happen. How about weight gain.

Yes…many have gained weight while taking Lithium. Wanting to eat more? Do you take this med with other medication?  

It can be augmented with another MS. would you consider Lithium a MS?

It is a MS…one of the oldest ones.   What effect does it have on depression ?

Not effective with depression. The newer MS like Lamictal and Neurontin have AD properties. Alas, have any of you experienced sleep disruption on it?  The latter problem i have experienced recently.

I never did but it can happen I have lots of confusion and some memory problems.  I do not know if this is the nature of bp or if the meds I have taken are the cause.

Lithium  has the potential of causing these side effects. I am tired of this whole business and am STILL trying to accept that I have this illness. There are not a whole lot of folks out here who I can discuss this with. Again, I am grateful I can discuss this with you.  Thanks for sharing your experience-Debbie N

Please discuss these side effects with your pdoc. I have enclosed James Milton’s post about the 20 medications available to treat BP stabilization in the US. Peace, "Twenty Medications Used for Bipolar Mood Stabilization in the US" By James D. Milton Last Updated: 7/30/99 <For best results specify that display and printing be done 80 characters/line  with a fixed pitch font to avoid line wrapping. Please see below for various psychotropic meds that are presently being used as mood stabilizing meds in the United States. I have not attempted to list either all of the adverse side effects or all the potential benefits from these psychoaffective medications because they vary considerably from person to person. In addition an entire book could easily be written about the pros and cons of these meds. A person with a Bipolar (BP) disorder will just have to keep on experimenting until they find the meds that are effective for each individual with side effects that can be personally tolerated. In general most people usually find that the newer mood stabilizers will have a more benign adverse side effect profile than the older meds. Also these meds may well prove to be more effective — particularly when the traditional older mood stabilizers have failed for some reason or another. For additional most important information about the efficacy of the newer mood stabilizers please see the following article: Current Treatments in Bipolar Disorder: http://www.cme-reviews.com/supplements.html Since these newer meds have not been available as long, the long term benefits and disadvantages are not as well known as the mood stabilizers that preceded them. Each person should thoroughly discuss ALL the various medication options together with their associated pros and cons with their pdoc (psychiatrist or psychopharmacologist). I strongly advocate a collaborative team approach between patient and their physician. You can find out a lot about the treatment of bipolar disorder by visiting the following most informative Web page compiled by Dr. Ivan Goldberg and then following the many valuable links to other educational sites about bipolar disorder: Bipolar (Manic-Depressive) Disorder: http://www.psycom.net/depression.central.bipolar.html Knowledge, Patience, Persistence, and Med Compliance IMO are vital keys to victory over our common illness. I wish you all the very best in your search for mental stability and well being!                   "Information Regarding BP Mood Stabilizers" Note: Only some of the potentially important effects are listed in the       following tables. Since there are NO universal responses to any       particular psychotropic medication, a person MAY or MAY NOT       experience the positive benefits or the negative adverse side       effects. YBMV (Your Brain May Vary) — and likely will!                             Older Primary Mood Stabilizers Lithium       — Lithobid, Eskalith CR (thyroid damage? tremors? weight gain?) Divalproex    – Depakote, Epival (liver damage? hair loss? weight gain?) Carbamazepine — Tegretol XR, Carbatrol (rare life-threatening anemia and rash?)                   Newer Primary Mood Stabilizers (Anticonvulsants) Gabapentin  – Neurontin (antidepressant? antianxiety med? IMPROVES COGNITION?) Lamotrigine — Lamictal (antidepressant? rashes? rare life-threatening rash?) Topiramate  – Topamax (antidepressant? kidneystones? heart probs? WEIGHT LOSS?) Tiagabine   — Gabatril (blocks reuptake of GABA? cognitive impairment?) Felbamate   — Felbatol (possibility of developing fatal aplastic anemia?) Gamma-vinyl-GABA — Vigabatrin (GVG may aid in cocaine and nicotine addiction?)     Calcium Channel Blockers (to be used ONLY as Secondary Mood Stabilizers) Verapamil  – Calan SR, Isoptin SR (anti-dysrhythmic/anginal/hypertensive agent) Nimodipine — Nimotop (improves cognition? aids multiple sclerosis depression?) Amlodipine — Norvasc, Lotrel (anti-hypertensive agent) Diltiazem  – Cardizem CD (anti-hypertensive/anginal agent) Felodipine — Plendil (anti-hypertensive agent) Isradipine — DynaCirc (anti-hypertensive agent) Nicardipine– Cardene (anti-hypertensive agent) Nifedipine — Procardia XL (anti-hypertensive/anginal/pulmonary-edema agent)             Adjunctive Medications Having Mood Stabilizing Properties Clozapine — Clozaril (older antipsychotic to be used only with anticonvulsants) Levothyroxine — Synthroid (adjust T4 level to 25% the upper limit of normal) Liothyronine sodium — Cytomel (adjust T3 level to treat refractory depression) Combining two (or more) mood stabilizers MAY be more effective than when each is taken alone. This is called "polytherapy" as opposed to the more traditional "monotherapy". One med may "potentiate" the effectiveness of another — so that the total effect becomes greater than the sum of its individual contributors. I believe that the efficacy of this approach is becoming increasingly apparent — particularly in refractory cases. It is my personal belief that polytherapy should also be utilized in nonrefractory BP cases as well. This concept is a "defense-in-depth" approach. Where one mood stabilizer is weak, hopefully another will be able to compensate for this weakness. For additional important technical information on "combination" or polytherapy please see: The Role of Complex Combination Therapy in the Treatment of Refractory Bipolar Illness: http://www.cme-reviews.com/CNS598_post.html Lithium carbonate (or another mood stabilizer) may prove helpful as a secondary adjunct to one of the newer mood stabilizers which have demonstrated powerful antidepressive properties for some people. Consequently for example I suggest that Neurontin-lithium and Lamictal-lithium combinations be considered. It is also possible that subtherapeutic dosages of lithium carbonate may be taken so as to minimize its adverse side effects. My recommendation for optimal results is Neurontin-Lamictal. However due to the potential strong antidepressive properties of each med, suggested conservative dosage titration protocols are given below. Of course only one mood stabilizer dosage should be adjusted at a time. A calcium channel blocker should at this point only be used as a secondary mood stabilizer — solely in conjunction with an effective primary mood stabilizer. There is some evidence to suggest that calcium channel blockers may be effectively used as antimanic agents — possibly as a replacement for lithium. They appear to have a much more benign side effect profile because they do not cause weight gain, do not cause tremors, and are well tolerated for gastrointestinal upsets and other adverse side effects. Of the 8 calcium channel blockers listed above, verapamil and nimodipine are the ones most commonly being used. Nimodipine is unfortunately quite expensive but shows promise under certain circumstances. Nimodipine is one of the few drugs found to increase the cerebrospinal fluid levels of somatostatin, a neuropeptide known to be permanently reduced in patients with Alzheimer’s and transiently reduced during active episodes of both depression and multiple sclerosis. Somatostatin depletion is also associated with problems of learning and memory. Subjectively, a number of patients felt more cognitively clear on nimodipine. Clozaril (clozapine) is … read more »

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I am struggling here and am grateful that there are some understanding folks on this site.  Was diagnosed last Oct. and am still trying to get the medication right (comfortable???).  Finally, I am trying Lithium.  The only problem is, we(my doc and I) thought I was having this weird side effect so we are slowly weaning me off it to see if this side effect subsides. Therefore, I am taking a very low dose and even prior to this I was low because I was awaiting my blood levels as this is new med for me. What I want to ask is this, have any of you experienced headaches on Lith. How about weight gain.  Wanting to eat more?  Do you take this med with other medication?   would you consider Lithium a MS?  What effect does it have on depression ?  Alas, have any of you experienced sleep disruption on it?  The latter problem i have experienced recently. I have lots of confusion and some memory problems.  I do not know if this is the nature of bp or if the meds I have taken are the cause.  I am tired of this whole business and am STILL trying to accept that I have this illness. There are not a whole lot of folks out here who I can discuss this with. Again, I am grateful I can discuss this with you.  Thanks for sharing your experience-Debbie N

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Dear Debbie, welcome to the group, I am glad you found us. It is nice to see you here. I personally do not have any experience taking lithium so I will leave it to others to talk about that. But I just wanted to say that I can empathize with you about the struggle to accept the illness.  It is a huge change in how you see yourself, at least it was for me. and the struggle to get the medications right is a major hassle. One of the things I find most frustrating is that the body chemistry and life circumstances that affect it, keep changing, so my meds have to be changed and fine tuned. I wish I could get the meds settled once and for all.  One of the keys is to try to establish a stable life routine, particularly a healthy sleep schedule. I am not so good at that, sometimes I end up staying up way too late. Also I don’t have a great diet and exercise plan. I am definitely not the model bipolar. However, even with my shortcomings I am doing well in my life, and I wish for you a similar success. — For info about this service, see http://www.twwells.com/anon/ or e-mail:

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Thanks for the tip -Ephraim – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just got a new computer and I can access the Net from my house instead of having to go to the library. I wonder, have any of you explored the Depression Central link on Dr. Bob’s Psychopharmacology Tips site, http://uhs.bsd.uchicago.edu/dr-bob/tips/tips.html ? Dr. Bob has a great site for people who want to learn about the scientific aspect of mood disorders. I first heard of Neurontin while exploring his site, and, though it took a while to find a Psychiatrist who would let me give it a try, once I found one and started taking it I discovered the first antimanic agent that I’m responsive to. I have mixed episodes, so I’m treatment-resistant, but now I’m on Wellbutrin and Neurontin and it’s the most effective combination of medications I’ve encountered. The Depression Central site has more info on Bipolar Disorder than I’ve ever encountered before. I can spend hours reading and re-reading the articles. I’ve found that you get used to the scientific jargon after a while if you just keep digging. I wish my Psychiatrist would read the articles therein. The problem with Psychiatrist is that they treat a whole spectrum of illnesses and don’t have the inclination to do any deep digging for info on BPD. It wasn’t until I printed out a series of posts to DBPT and read sections of them to my shrink that he finally agreed to give Neurontin a try. He didn’t think that I was suffering from mixed episodes, even though that was the diagnosis I got when I was an ‘inmate’ at the Cleveland Clinic Psych ward. Knowledge is power, inform yourselves.

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I just got a new computer and I can access the Net from my house instead of having to go to the library. ….snipped…. Knowledge is power, inform yourselves.

Welcome and thanks for sharing the sites.  Fascinating info, isn’t it? Others in the group have provided great links for learning and will be able to direct you further.  Also, and you probably know this but I am the "queen of the obvious", type "bipolar disorder" or "manic depression" into a search engine for more quick sites. regards, julie

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I just got a new computer and I can access the Net from my house instead of having to go to the library. I wonder, have any of you explored the Depression Central link on Dr. Bob’s Psychopharmacology Tips site, http://uhs.bsd.uchicago.edu/dr-bob/tips/tips.html ? Dr. Bob has a great site for people who want to learn about the scientific aspect of mood disorders. I first heard of Neurontin while exploring his site, and, though it took a while to find a Psychiatrist who would let me give it a try, once I found one and started taking it I discovered the first antimanic agent that I’m responsive to. I have mixed episodes, so I’m treatment-resistant, but now I’m on Wellbutrin and Neurontin and it’s the most effective combination of medications I’ve encountered. The Depression Central site has more info on Bipolar Disorder than I’ve ever encountered before. I can spend hours reading and re-reading the articles. I’ve found that you get used to the scientific jargon after a while if you just keep digging. I wish my Psychiatrist would read the articles therein. The problem with Psychiatrist is that they treat a whole spectrum of illnesses and don’t have the inclination to do any deep digging for info on BPD. It wasn’t until I printed out a series of posts to DBPT and read sections of them to my shrink that he finally agreed to give Neurontin a try. He didn’t think that I was suffering from mixed episodes, even though that was the diagnosis I got when I was an ‘inmate’ at the Cleveland Clinic Psych ward. Knowledge is power, inform yourselves.

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Suzie,   Welcome to the group!  You’ll love it here.  Everyone is very supportive and VERY helpful. Sue

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Suzie,  Welcome to the group!  You’ll love it here.  Everyone is very supportive and VERY helpful. Sue

Amen!! Jane

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hi, my name is Suzie and I have JRA for 20  years and I was looking for a support who can relate to having arthritis,surgeries,(replacement, and meds. I let a message in the othe new group-misc.health.arthritis too. I just move to NJ, from Brooklyn, NY and I miss all my friends so I was hoping to make new ones. Is anybody interested? Suzie

Response:

hi, my name is Suzie and I have JRA for 20  years and I was looking for a support who can relate to having arthritis,surgeries,(replacement, and meds. I let a message in the othe new group-misc.health.arthritis too. I just move to NJ, from Brooklyn, NY and I miss all my friends so I was hoping to make new ones. Is anybody interested? Suzie

Suzie, You’ll find lots of support here! A great bunch of people! You can whine, bitch and cry here….and everyone knows how you feel! Keep Smilin’ ~Krissy "The most thoroughly wasted of all days is that  in which one has not laughed." Nicolas Chamfort

Response:

Hi Marge — have you been lurking or just missing for a few weeks? Duckie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi! Welcome!  There are many friendly, warm people here. I can share what has worked wonderful for me for almost 4 1/2 years now. I take Minocin, an antibiotic.The  book The New Arthritis Breakthrough By Henry Scammell helps explain this  theory.

Response:

Welcome to the group, Carol! Cindy is one of those who can’t be trusted with the chocoloate. So here, let ME hold it for you instead! hugs! -kk p.s. I have RA (rheumatoid arthritis). I have to take strong meds for it but it’s better than ending up with my joints damaged. So be sure to take the advice of others here and get a good rheumatologist to check you out! p.p.s. Notice the body of this note is about chocolate, and the subject of arthritis is relegated to the PS! You can tell from that what is important around here! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello Carol, and welcome to the group.  I’m sorry to hear that you’re having some discomfort.  Pain in the knees and hands was the first symptoms of what turned out to be RA.  Please keep going to doctors (especially rheumatologists) until you get a diagnosis and some treatment.  It would be better for  your future if you were diagnosed and treated early in the game. Investigate the possibilities of herbal medications, too, but let your doctor know what you are taking. Stick around….there are a lot of knowledgeable people here who will have information to help you. Cindy R. p.s. – do you like chocolate? Do you happen to have any with you?  Better let me hold it for you….some people in here can’t be trusted! ;- Hi all I have been suffering from arthritis for a couple of years now.  First of all my right knee and then I had an anthroscopy.  Seems to be worse since I had that done.  My right elbow has got bad now and difficult to pick up anything.  If I carry anthing for too long it is very painful.  Have tried glugosamine and chondroitin.  Worked to begin with but not doesnt make any difference. Any tips.  Doctors dont seem to be very helpful.   Knee is very stiff.  I am like an old lady when it comes to walking and my leg has deformed a bit now. Carol

Response:

Welcome to the group, Carol! Cindy is one of those who can’t be trusted with the chocoloate. So here, let ME hold it for you instead!

kk, Now you know you shouldn’t be lifting things with that costo flaring. Here, i’ll just go ahead and help you out……. Aim To reply via email, make sure to remove the DEATH-TO-SPAMMERS from my address! It should read:  aimgrrrl at mindspring dot com

Response:

I started acupuncture for my shoulder about 5 week ago and it has really helped with the pain.  It took about 7 treatments before I really seen a difference.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi all I have been suffering from arthritis for a couple of years now.  First of all my right knee and then I had an anthroscopy.  Seems to be worse since I had that done.  My right elbow has got bad now and difficult to pick up anything.  If I carry anthing for too long it is very painful.  Have tried glugosamine and chondroitin.  Worked to begin with but not doesnt make any difference. Any tips.  Doctors dont seem to be very helpful.   Knee is very stiff.  I am like an old lady when it comes to walking and my leg has deformed a bit now. Carol

Response:

Hi! Welcome!  There are many friendly, warm people here. I can share what has worked wonderful for me for almost 4 1/2 years now. I take Minocin, an antibiotic.The  book The New Arthritis Breakthrough By Henry Scammell helps explain this  theory. I was sick and on many traditional treatments for over 16 years and,for me, not good results.  Minocin has allowed me to wean off Pred, off MTX aa well as stomach meds and sleep meds. I take no pain meds and have gotten a lot of my old strength back.  There have been clinical trials for minocin proving it safe and effective for RA and it has done well with the newly diagnosed especially. My daughter( also an Ra-er) is in remission on Minocin for over 3 yrs now. The website www.roadback.org has a lot of information on it as well as a free protocol. There is a bulletin board to ask questions  under online support.. If I can help in any way, let me know I was so happy to find this treatment. It has really given me back a great quality of life! Love, Marge Marge

Response:

Hi all I have been suffering from arthritis for a couple of years now.  First of all my right knee and then I had an anthroscopy.  Seems to be worse since I had that done.  My right elbow has got bad now and difficult to pick up anything.  If I carry anthing for too long it is very painful.  Have tried glugosamine and chondroitin.  Worked to begin with but not doesnt make any difference. Any tips.  Doctors dont seem to be very helpful.   Knee is very stiff.  I am like an old lady when it comes to walking and my leg has deformed a bit now. Carol

Response:

Welcome (((Carol)))  Plenty of freindly and informed people on this site. Have you got a really good Rheumatologist?  If not as a first priority get one to diagnose you etc.  maureen   UK

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi all I have been suffering from arthritis for a couple of years now.  First of all my right knee and then I had an anthroscopy.  Seems to be worse since I had that done.  My right elbow has got bad now and difficult to pick up anything.  If I carry anthing for too long it is very painful.  Have tried glugosamine and chondroitin.  Worked to begin with but not doesnt make any difference. Any tips.  Doctors dont seem to be very helpful.   Knee is very stiff.  I am like an old lady when it comes to walking and my leg has deformed a bit now. Carol

Response:

Hello Carol, and welcome to the group.  I’m sorry to hear that you’re having some discomfort.  Pain in the knees and hands was the first symptoms of what turned out to be RA.  Please keep going to doctors (especially rheumatologists) until you get a diagnosis and some treatment.  It would be better for  your future if you were diagnosed and treated early in the game. Investigate the possibilities of herbal medications, too, but let your doctor know what you are taking.     Stick around….there are a lot of knowledgeable people here who will have information to help you. Cindy R. p.s. – do you like chocolate? Do you happen to have any with you?  Better let me hold it for you….some people in here can’t be trusted! ;-

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi all I have been suffering from arthritis for a couple of years now.  First of all my right knee and then I had an anthroscopy.  Seems to be worse since I had that done.  My right elbow has got bad now and difficult to pick up anything.  If I carry anthing for too long it is very painful.  Have tried glugosamine and chondroitin.  Worked to begin with but not doesnt make any difference. Any tips.  Doctors dont seem to be very helpful.   Knee is very stiff.  I am like an old lady when it comes to walking and my leg has deformed a bit now. Carol

Response:

Hi Carol: have you seen a rheumatologist [RD]?  If not you need to do that first. Get a start to a diagnosis and then on to a medicine choice which will help you before you get any joint damage. Here are two good sites for reference work: http://www.arthritisinsight.com http://www.arthritis.co.za/   This site even has a section on preparing for your first visit to a RD. Keep us posted. Duckie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi all I have been suffering from arthritis for a couple of years now.  First of all my right knee and then I had an anthroscopy.  Seems to be worse since I had that done.  My right elbow has got bad now and difficult to pick up anything.  If I carry anthing for too long it is very painful.  Have tried glugosamine and chondroitin.  Worked to begin with but not doesnt make any difference. Any tips.  Doctors dont seem to be very helpful.   Knee is very stiff.  I am like an old lady when it comes to walking and my leg has deformed a bit now. Carol

Response:

Suzie,   Welcome to the group!  You’ll love it here.  Everyone is very supportive and VERY helpful. Sue

Response:

Suzie,  Welcome to the group!  You’ll love it here.  Everyone is very supportive and VERY helpful. Sue

Amen!! Jane

Response:

hi, my name is Suzie and I have JRA for 20  years and I was looking for a support who can relate to having arthritis,surgeries,(replacement, and meds. I let a message in the othe new group-misc.health.arthritis too. I just move to NJ, from Brooklyn, NY and I miss all my friends so I was hoping to make new ones. Is anybody interested? Suzie

Response:

hi, my name is Suzie and I have JRA for 20  years and I was looking for a support who can relate to having arthritis,surgeries,(replacement, and meds. I let a message in the othe new group-misc.health.arthritis too. I just move to NJ, from Brooklyn, NY and I miss all my friends so I was hoping to make new ones. Is anybody interested? Suzie

Suzie, You’ll find lots of support here! A great bunch of people! You can whine, bitch and cry here….and everyone knows how you feel! Keep Smilin’ ~Krissy "The most thoroughly wasted of all days is that  in which one has not laughed." Nicolas Chamfort

Response:

Hi Marge — have you been lurking or just missing for a few weeks? Duckie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi! Welcome!  There are many friendly, warm people here. I can share what has worked wonderful for me for almost 4 1/2 years now. I take Minocin, an antibiotic.The  book The New Arthritis Breakthrough By Henry Scammell helps explain this  theory.

Response:

Welcome to the group, Carol! Cindy is one of those who can’t be trusted with the chocoloate. So here, let ME hold it for you instead! hugs! -kk p.s. I have RA (rheumatoid arthritis). I have to take strong meds for it but it’s better than ending up with my joints damaged. So be sure to take the advice of others here and get a good rheumatologist to check you out! p.p.s. Notice the body of this note is about chocolate, and the subject of arthritis is relegated to the PS! You can tell from that what is important around here! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello Carol, and welcome to the group.  I’m sorry to hear that you’re having some discomfort.  Pain in the knees and hands was the first symptoms of what turned out to be RA.  Please keep going to doctors (especially rheumatologists) until you get a diagnosis and some treatment.  It would be better for  your future if you were diagnosed and treated early in the game. Investigate the possibilities of herbal medications, too, but let your doctor know what you are taking. Stick around….there are a lot of knowledgeable people here who will have information to help you. Cindy R. p.s. – do you like chocolate? Do you happen to have any with you?  Better let me hold it for you….some people in here can’t be trusted! ;- Hi all I have been suffering from arthritis for a couple of years now.  First of all my right knee and then I had an anthroscopy.  Seems to be worse since I had that done.  My right elbow has got bad now and difficult to pick up anything.  If I carry anthing for too long it is very painful.  Have tried glugosamine and chondroitin.  Worked to begin with but not doesnt make any difference. Any tips.  Doctors dont seem to be very helpful.   Knee is very stiff.  I am like an old lady when it comes to walking and my leg has deformed a bit now. Carol

Response:

Welcome to the group, Carol! Cindy is one of those who can’t be trusted with the chocoloate. So here, let ME hold it for you instead!

kk, Now you know you shouldn’t be lifting things with that costo flaring. Here, i’ll just go ahead and help you out……. Aim To reply via email, make sure to remove the DEATH-TO-SPAMMERS from my address! It should read:  aimgrrrl at mindspring dot com

Response:

I started acupuncture for my shoulder about 5 week ago and it has really helped with the pain.  It took about 7 treatments before I really seen a difference.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi all I have been suffering from arthritis for a couple of years now.  First of all my right knee and then I had an anthroscopy.  Seems to be worse since I had that done.  My right elbow has got bad now and difficult to pick up anything.  If I carry anthing for too long it is very painful.  Have tried glugosamine and chondroitin.  Worked to begin with but not doesnt make any difference. Any tips.  Doctors dont seem to be very helpful.   Knee is very stiff.  I am like an old lady when it comes to walking and my leg has deformed a bit now. Carol

Response:

Hi! Welcome!  There are many friendly, warm people here. I can share what has worked wonderful for me for almost 4 1/2 years now. I take Minocin, an antibiotic.The  book The New Arthritis Breakthrough By Henry Scammell helps explain this  theory. I was sick and on many traditional treatments for over 16 years and,for me, not good results.  Minocin has allowed me to wean off Pred, off MTX aa well as stomach meds and sleep meds. I take no pain meds and have gotten a lot of my old strength back.  There have been clinical trials for minocin proving it safe and effective for RA and it has done well with the newly diagnosed especially. My daughter( also an Ra-er) is in remission on Minocin for over 3 yrs now. The website www.roadback.org has a lot of information on it as well as a free protocol. There is a bulletin board to ask questions  under online support.. If I can help in any way, let me know I was so happy to find this treatment. It has really given me back a great quality of life! Love, Marge Marge

Response:

Hi all I have been suffering from arthritis for a couple of years now.  First of all my right knee and then I had an anthroscopy.  Seems to be worse since I had that done.  My right elbow has got bad now and difficult to pick up anything.  If I carry anthing for too long it is very painful.  Have tried glugosamine and chondroitin.  Worked to begin with but not doesnt make any difference. Any tips.  Doctors dont seem to be very helpful.   Knee is very stiff.  I am like an old lady when it comes to walking and my leg has deformed a bit now. Carol

Response:

Welcome (((Carol)))  Plenty of freindly and informed people on this site. Have you got a really good Rheumatologist?  If not as a first priority get one to diagnose you etc.  maureen   UK

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi all I have been suffering from arthritis for a couple of years now.  First of all my right knee and then I had an anthroscopy.  Seems to be worse since I had that done.  My right elbow has got bad now and difficult to pick up anything.  If I carry anthing for too long it is very painful.  Have tried glugosamine and chondroitin.  Worked to begin with but not doesnt make any difference. Any tips.  Doctors dont seem to be very helpful.   Knee is very stiff.  I am like an old lady when it comes to walking and my leg has deformed a bit now. Carol

Response:

Hello Carol, and welcome to the group.  I’m sorry to hear that you’re having some discomfort.  Pain in the knees and hands was the first symptoms of what turned out to be RA.  Please keep going to doctors (especially rheumatologists) until you get a diagnosis and some treatment.  It would be better for  your future if you were diagnosed and treated early in the game. Investigate the possibilities of herbal medications, too, but let your doctor know what you are taking.     Stick around….there are a lot of knowledgeable people here who will have information to help you. Cindy R. p.s. – do you like chocolate? Do you happen to have any with you?  Better let me hold it for you….some people in here can’t be trusted! ;-

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi all I have been suffering from arthritis for a couple of years now.  First of all my right knee and then I had an anthroscopy.  Seems to be worse since I had that done.  My right elbow has got bad now and difficult to pick up anything.  If I carry anthing for too long it is very painful.  Have tried glugosamine and chondroitin.  Worked to begin with but not doesnt make any difference. Any tips.  Doctors dont seem to be very helpful.   Knee is very stiff.  I am like an old lady when it comes to walking and my leg has deformed a bit now. Carol

Response:

Hi Carol: have you seen a rheumatologist [RD]?  If not you need to do that first. Get a start to a diagnosis and then on to a medicine choice which will help you before you get any joint damage. Here are two good sites for reference work: http://www.arthritisinsight.com http://www.arthritis.co.za/   This site even has a section on preparing for your first visit to a RD. Keep us posted. Duckie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi all I have been suffering from arthritis for a couple of years now.  First of all my right knee and then I had an anthroscopy.  Seems to be worse since I had that done.  My right elbow has got bad now and difficult to pick up anything.  If I carry anthing for too long it is very painful.  Have tried glugosamine and chondroitin.  Worked to begin with but not doesnt make any difference. Any tips.  Doctors dont seem to be very helpful.   Knee is very stiff.  I am like an old lady when it comes to walking and my leg has deformed a bit now. Carol

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello everyone, I’m so happy this group exists. January 20 is my first quit date but 3rd attempt. It’s not the nicotine at all. It’s the oral fixation, and I don’t know how to handle it because I can’t have pretzels or licorice because of my diet. Chinese licorce, however, does substitute alright except you don’t get the smoke Man, I don’t know what to do to break this. It is so damn hard because like everyone else who smokes, i think, I incorporated it into every facet of my life. I’m really happy that my girlfriend really wants me to quit. And I just think of it like "well quit" and every argument against it I think of a counter argument. I will go now and I hope to talk to you guys soon because you are doing a great serves to others who are trying to quit. Sincerely, Kyle

hi Kile! If you imagine it will be such a hard time for you, then you might benefit from some preparation. For instance: have you considered using patches or Zyban, or any other aid? In this group, there have been a lot of discussions about the aids, and you can also find information (and see the faces of the people here!) on www.quitbuddies.org. Preparation, for me, also consists of doing things I like. I make sure I’ve got plenty of fat fantasy novels in the house, and allow myself to eat whatever I like, for a few weeks. In short, I’m *nice* to myself. Keep reading, and posting, so you feel familiar here and feel comfortable to shout for support (or fun, or chat) when the time has come. It is your quit, and yours alone. May the road rise to meet you, and be welcome to the Rockers 2004! Gita … I have not smoked in two days and 15 hours. 47 cigarettes remained unbought, saving fl 7,95. Time saved to save the earth and wonder about the meaning of life: 3 hours, 55 minutes.

Response:

Congrats on making the decision to quit, Kyle.  I’m glad you’ve set a date; now is the time to prepare, and you’re in the right place.  Jump on in here, read the posts, scour the internet for credible information, post here as much as you want, and get yourself psyched up for the most important decision you’ll ever make.  It likely won’t be an easy thing to do but the people here can make it bearable (and even fun sometimes!); the support to be found in this group is second to none. Yes you are right that smoking becomes an ingrained activity that we associate with everything we do.  That’s a pretty key point when it comes to this and it’s great to see it early on.  You’ll be changing lots and lots of habitual behaviors and it can help you to have a plan, or at least to have presence of mind about this so that you can change your habits. In fact, you can start working on this now, before you even quit.  For example, you could think about each cigarette you smoke and think about what you might be able to do as a non-smoker in this circumstance instead.  You can start planning those trigger-shifting habits now, as part of your preparation.  You can also start shifting the way you think about smoking now, by looking at each cigarette you smoke in a different way.  Each time you light one, tell yourself that the cigarette is just a poison delivery system, that it’s nothing but a paper tube filled with burning leaves, and ask yourself if any sane, non-addicted person would be caught dead putting that thing in their mouth… and answer honestly, every time you light up. Stuff like that, as preparation, can help you when the time comes. Glad to have you with us hugs, elle

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello everyone, I’m so happy this group exists. January 20 is my first quit date but 3rd attempt. It’s not the nicotine at all. It’s the oral fixation, and I don’t know how to handle it because I can’t have pretzels or licorice because of my diet. Chinese licorce, however, does substitute alright except you don’t get the smoke Man, I don’t know what to do to break this. It is so damn hard because like everyone else who smokes, i think, I incorporated it into every facet of my life. I’m really happy that my girlfriend really wants me to quit. And I just think of it like "well quit" and every argument against it I think of a counter argument. I will go now and I hope to talk to you guys soon because you are doing a great serves to others who are trying to quit. Sincerely, Kyle

Response:

Welcome Kyle, get comfy & settle in here. You can do this! Cat

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello everyone, I’m so happy this group exists. January 20 is my first quit date but 3rd attempt. It’s not the nicotine at all. It’s the oral fixation, and I don’t know how to handle it because I can’t have pretzels or licorice because of my diet. Chinese licorce, however, does substitute alright except you don’t get the smoke Man, I don’t know what to do to break this. It is so damn hard because like everyone else who smokes, i think, I incorporated it into every facet of my life. I’m really happy that my girlfriend really wants me to quit. And I just think of it like "well quit" and every argument against it I think of a counter argument. I will go now and I hope to talk to you guys soon because you are doing a great serves to others who are trying to quit. Sincerely, Kyle

Welcome along Kyle! Heaps of good advice in this thread already, so will just trot out my favourite thing to do when preparing for a quit. Make lists. Lists of why you want to quit – all the awful things about smoking that make you feel like this is it, you have gotta lose this habit, and for good. Lists of what you will do during a crave…be it chew some NRT gum, or normal gum, drink a glass of water, have a cup of tea, take a shower, go for a walk…your list will be as individual as you. And finally, my favourite, a list of rewards for each milestone. This might be something as simple as a soak in the bath with a new bubble bath, or a cd, or movie, or even saving up for a major indulgence (some folks got bikes, or kites, or whatever their thing was)… Best wishes to you. Get prepared. You can do this…and using the time until 20th January for preparation means that your quit is going to be that much better. Paula

Response:

Kyle,    Don’t know what your dietary issues are, but if you can have sugar at all try some hard candies.  I used to suck on REEDS Cinnamon candies.  One role, a tad larger than life savers, would last a day and the strong cinnamon flavor handled the oral fixation part of smoking.    Hang in there cause as I can tell you a cold turkey quit can be tough at first.  It does start to get easier earlier than other methods but still the first few weeks are real mind benders. Ian OOF — 8y 11m 2d 15:39 smoke-free, 110,789 cigs not smoked, $13,671.36 saved, – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello everyone, I’m so happy this group exists. January 20 is my first quit date but 3rd attempt. It’s not the nicotine at all. It’s the oral fixation, and I don’t know how to handle it because I can’t have pretzels or licorice because of my diet. Chinese licorce, however, does substitute alright except you don’t get the smoke Man, I don’t know what to do to break this. It is so damn hard because like everyone else who smokes, i think, I incorporated it into every facet of my life. I’m really happy that my girlfriend really wants me to quit. And I just think of it like "well quit" and every argument against it I think of a counter argument. I will go now and I hope to talk to you guys soon because you are doing a great serves to others who are trying to quit. Sincerely, Kyle

Response:

You’ve come to the right place Kyle, my friend. Getting over the constant oral stimulation was a challenge for me too.  (Oh, I can hear the jokes now!) I also missed the hand to mouth motion.  M&Ms helped but weight gain is a concern for me.  So (as someone here suggested) I made a smoking straw.  Cut a soda straw in half and stuff one end with cotton.  The cotton can be "flavored" by a drop of vanilla, mint, eucalyptus, clove, whatever.  When the craves got overpowering I would "smoke" my straw.  It helped alot.  I mean ALOT. Looking forward to getting to know you Kyle. Chris 4M

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello everyone, I’m so happy this group exists. January 20 is my first quit date but 3rd attempt. It’s not the nicotine at all. It’s the oral fixation, and I don’t know how to handle it because I can’t have pretzels or licorice because of my diet. Chinese licorce, however, does substitute alright except you don’t get the smoke Man, I don’t know what to do to break this. It is so damn hard because like everyone else who smokes, i think, I incorporated it into every facet of my life. I’m really happy that my girlfriend really wants me to quit. And I just think of it like "well quit" and every argument against it I think of a counter argument. I will go now and I hope to talk to you guys soon because you are doing a great serves to others who are trying to quit. Sincerely, Kyle

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello everyone, I’m so happy this group exists. January 20 is my first quit date but 3rd attempt. It’s not the nicotine at all. It’s the oral fixation, and I don’t know how to handle it because I can’t have pretzels or licorice because of my diet. Chinese licorce, however, does substitute alright except you don’t get the smoke Man, I don’t know what to do to break this. It is so damn hard because like everyone else who smokes, i think, I incorporated it into every facet of my life. I’m really happy that my girlfriend really wants me to quit. And I just think of it like "well quit" and every argument against it I think of a counter argument. I will go now and I hope to talk to you guys soon because you are doing a great serves to others who are trying to quit. Sincerely, Kyle

Welcome, Kyle!  Can you have celery or carrots?  Apple slices or Altoids? Do you have a short drinking straw or a toothpick?  Suck on some bottled water for fun!  You can do this.  Perhaps the girlfriend can suggest other distractions to take your mind off cigarettes . . . ? Welcome to the elite January 2004 quitters.  We rock! Maude

Response:

Welcome to the group….I started posting a month before I quit although I usually only lurked….I really built myself up…use this NG as a tool to get ya hyped! — Steff Medic1455

Hello everyone, I’m so happy this group exists. January 20 is my first quit date but 3rd attempt. It’s not the nicotine at all. It’s

the oral fixation, and I don’t know how to handle it because I can’t have pretzels or licorice because of my diet. Chinese licorce,

however, does substitute alright except you don’t get the smoke Man, I

don’t know what to do to break this. It is so damn hard because like everyone else who smokes, i think, I incorporated it into every

facet of my life. I’m really happy that my girlfriend really wants me to quit. And I just think of it like "well quit" and every argument

against it I think of a counter argument. I will go now and I hope to talk to you guys

soon because you are – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – doing a great serves to others who are trying to quit. Sincerely, Kyle

Response:

Hey Kyle…you’ve come to the right place. Keep reading, it really helps to hear what others are/have going/gone thru.  :- Oh …and what the hell is Chinese licorce?? Ripley / placid in Pink — Nuttin nasty in here!!  :-) Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

Response:

Hello everyone, I’m so happy this group exists. January 20 is my first quit date but 3rd attempt. It’s not the nicotine at all. It’s the oral fixation, and I don’t know how to handle it because I can’t have pretzels or licorice because of my diet. Chinese licorce, however, does substitute alright except you don’t get the smoke Man, I don’t know what to do to break this. It is so damn hard because like everyone else who smokes, i think, I incorporated it into every facet of my life. I’m really happy that my girlfriend really wants me to quit. And I just think of it like "well quit" and every argument against it I think of a counter argument. I will go now and I hope to talk to you guys soon because you are doing a great serves to others who are trying to quit. Sincerely, Kyle

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello everyone, I’m so happy this group exists. January 20 is my first quit date but 3rd attempt. It’s not the nicotine at all. It’s the oral fixation, and I don’t know how to handle it because I can’t have pretzels or licorice because of my diet. Chinese licorce, however, does substitute alright except you don’t get the smoke Man, I don’t know what to do to break this. It is so damn hard because like everyone else who smokes, i think, I incorporated it into every facet of my life. I’m really happy that my girlfriend really wants me to quit. And I just think of it like "well quit" and every argument against it I think of a counter argument. I will go now and I hope to talk to you guys soon because you are doing a great serves to others who are trying to quit. Sincerely, Kyle

hi Kile! If you imagine it will be such a hard time for you, then you might benefit from some preparation. For instance: have you considered using patches or Zyban, or any other aid? In this group, there have been a lot of discussions about the aids, and you can also find information (and see the faces of the people here!) on www.quitbuddies.org. Preparation, for me, also consists of doing things I like. I make sure I’ve got plenty of fat fantasy novels in the house, and allow myself to eat whatever I like, for a few weeks. In short, I’m *nice* to myself. Keep reading, and posting, so you feel familiar here and feel comfortable to shout for support (or fun, or chat) when the time has come. It is your quit, and yours alone. May the road rise to meet you, and be welcome to the Rockers 2004! Gita … I have not smoked in two days and 15 hours. 47 cigarettes remained unbought, saving fl 7,95. Time saved to save the earth and wonder about the meaning of life: 3 hours, 55 minutes.

Response:

Congrats on making the decision to quit, Kyle.  I’m glad you’ve set a date; now is the time to prepare, and you’re in the right place.  Jump on in here, read the posts, scour the internet for credible information, post here as much as you want, and get yourself psyched up for the most important decision you’ll ever make.  It likely won’t be an easy thing to do but the people here can make it bearable (and even fun sometimes!); the support to be found in this group is second to none. Yes you are right that smoking becomes an ingrained activity that we associate with everything we do.  That’s a pretty key point when it comes to this and it’s great to see it early on.  You’ll be changing lots and lots of habitual behaviors and it can help you to have a plan, or at least to have presence of mind about this so that you can change your habits. In fact, you can start working on this now, before you even quit.  For example, you could think about each cigarette you smoke and think about what you might be able to do as a non-smoker in this circumstance instead.  You can start planning those trigger-shifting habits now, as part of your preparation.  You can also start shifting the way you think about smoking now, by looking at each cigarette you smoke in a different way.  Each time you light one, tell yourself that the cigarette is just a poison delivery system, that it’s nothing but a paper tube filled with burning leaves, and ask yourself if any sane, non-addicted person would be caught dead putting that thing in their mouth… and answer honestly, every time you light up. Stuff like that, as preparation, can help you when the time comes. Glad to have you with us hugs, elle

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello everyone, I’m so happy this group exists. January 20 is my first quit date but 3rd attempt. It’s not the nicotine at all. It’s the oral fixation, and I don’t know how to handle it because I can’t have pretzels or licorice because of my diet. Chinese licorce, however, does substitute alright except you don’t get the smoke Man, I don’t know what to do to break this. It is so damn hard because like everyone else who smokes, i think, I incorporated it into every facet of my life. I’m really happy that my girlfriend really wants me to quit. And I just think of it like "well quit" and every argument against it I think of a counter argument. I will go now and I hope to talk to you guys soon because you are doing a great serves to others who are trying to quit. Sincerely, Kyle

Response:

Welcome Kyle, get comfy & settle in here. You can do this! Cat

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello everyone, I’m so happy this group exists. January 20 is my first quit date but 3rd attempt. It’s not the nicotine at all. It’s the oral fixation, and I don’t know how to handle it because I can’t have pretzels or licorice because of my diet. Chinese licorce, however, does substitute alright except you don’t get the smoke Man, I don’t know what to do to break this. It is so damn hard because like everyone else who smokes, i think, I incorporated it into every facet of my life. I’m really happy that my girlfriend really wants me to quit. And I just think of it like "well quit" and every argument against it I think of a counter argument. I will go now and I hope to talk to you guys soon because you are doing a great serves to others who are trying to quit. Sincerely, Kyle

Welcome along Kyle! Heaps of good advice in this thread already, so will just trot out my favourite thing to do when preparing for a quit. Make lists. Lists of why you want to quit – all the awful things about smoking that make you feel like this is it, you have gotta lose this habit, and for good. Lists of what you will do during a crave…be it chew some NRT gum, or normal gum, drink a glass of water, have a cup of tea, take a shower, go for a walk…your list will be as individual as you. And finally, my favourite, a list of rewards for each milestone. This might be something as simple as a soak in the bath with a new bubble bath, or a cd, or movie, or even saving up for a major indulgence (some folks got bikes, or kites, or whatever their thing was)… Best wishes to you. Get prepared. You can do this…and using the time until 20th January for preparation means that your quit is going to be that much better. Paula

Response:

Kyle,    Don’t know what your dietary issues are, but if you can have sugar at all try some hard candies.  I used to suck on REEDS Cinnamon candies.  One role, a tad larger than life savers, would last a day and the strong cinnamon flavor handled the oral fixation part of smoking.    Hang in there cause as I can tell you a cold turkey quit can be tough at first.  It does start to get easier earlier than other methods but still the first few weeks are real mind benders. Ian OOF — 8y 11m 2d 15:39 smoke-free, 110,789 cigs not smoked, $13,671.36 saved, – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello everyone, I’m so happy this group exists. January 20 is my first quit date but 3rd attempt. It’s not the nicotine at all. It’s the oral fixation, and I don’t know how to handle it because I can’t have pretzels or licorice because of my diet. Chinese licorce, however, does substitute alright except you don’t get the smoke Man, I don’t know what to do to break this. It is so damn hard because like everyone else who smokes, i think, I incorporated it into every facet of my life. I’m really happy that my girlfriend really wants me to quit. And I just think of it like "well quit" and every argument against it I think of a counter argument. I will go now and I hope to talk to you guys soon because you are doing a great serves to others who are trying to quit. Sincerely, Kyle

Response:

You’ve come to the right place Kyle, my friend. Getting over the constant oral stimulation was a challenge for me too.  (Oh, I can hear the jokes now!) I also missed the hand to mouth motion.  M&Ms helped but weight gain is a concern for me.  So (as someone here suggested) I made a smoking straw.  Cut a soda straw in half and stuff one end with cotton.  The cotton can be "flavored" by a drop of vanilla, mint, eucalyptus, clove, whatever.  When the craves got overpowering I would "smoke" my straw.  It helped alot.  I mean ALOT. Looking forward to getting to know you Kyle. Chris 4M

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello everyone, I’m so happy this group exists. January 20 is my first quit date but 3rd attempt. It’s not the nicotine at all. It’s the oral fixation, and I don’t know how to handle it because I can’t have pretzels or licorice because of my diet. Chinese licorce, however, does substitute alright except you don’t get the smoke Man, I don’t know what to do to break this. It is so damn hard because like everyone else who smokes, i think, I incorporated it into every facet of my life. I’m really happy that my girlfriend really wants me to quit. And I just think of it like "well quit" and every argument against it I think of a counter argument. I will go now and I hope to talk to you guys soon because you are doing a great serves to others who are trying to quit. Sincerely, Kyle

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello everyone, I’m so happy this group exists. January 20 is my first quit date but 3rd attempt. It’s not the nicotine at all. It’s the oral fixation, and I don’t know how to handle it because I can’t have pretzels or licorice because of my diet. Chinese licorce, however, does substitute alright except you don’t get the smoke Man, I don’t know what to do to break this. It is so damn hard because like everyone else who smokes, i think, I incorporated it into every facet of my life. I’m really happy that my girlfriend really wants me to quit. And I just think of it like "well quit" and every argument against it I think of a counter argument. I will go now and I hope to talk to you guys soon because you are doing a great serves to others who are trying to quit. Sincerely, Kyle

Welcome, Kyle!  Can you have celery or carrots?  Apple slices or Altoids? Do you have a short drinking straw or a toothpick?  Suck on some bottled water for fun!  You can do this.  Perhaps the girlfriend can suggest other distractions to take your mind off cigarettes . . . ? Welcome to the elite January 2004 quitters.  We rock! Maude

Response:

Welcome to the group….I started posting a month before I quit although I usually only lurked….I really built myself up…use this NG as a tool to get ya hyped! — Steff Medic1455

Hello everyone, I’m so happy this group exists. January 20 is my first quit date but 3rd attempt. It’s not the nicotine at all. It’s

the oral fixation, and I don’t know how to handle it because I can’t have pretzels or licorice because of my diet. Chinese licorce,

however, does substitute alright except you don’t get the smoke Man, I

don’t know what to do to break this. It is so damn hard because like everyone else who smokes, i think, I incorporated it into every

facet of my life. I’m really happy that my girlfriend really wants me to quit. And I just think of it like "well quit" and every argument

against it I think of a counter argument. I will go now and I hope to talk to you guys

soon because you are – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – doing a great serves to others who are trying to quit. Sincerely, Kyle

Response:

Hey Kyle…you’ve come to the right place. Keep reading, it really helps to hear what others are/have going/gone thru.  :- Oh …and what the hell is Chinese licorce?? Ripley / placid in Pink — Nuttin nasty in here!!  :-) Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

Response:

Hello everyone, I’m so happy this group exists. January 20 is my first quit date but 3rd attempt. It’s not the nicotine at all. It’s the oral fixation, and I don’t know how to handle it because I can’t have pretzels or licorice because of my diet. Chinese licorce, however, does substitute alright except you don’t get the smoke Man, I don’t know what to do to break this. It is so damn hard because like everyone else who smokes, i think, I incorporated it into every facet of my life. I’m really happy that my girlfriend really wants me to quit. And I just think of it like "well quit" and every argument against it I think of a counter argument. I will go now and I hope to talk to you guys soon because you are doing a great serves to others who are trying to quit. Sincerely, Kyle

Response:

Question:

My 80 year old farther(in pretty good shape looks more like 65) has bouts of depression…last time lasted 2 months and had to move in  with me and my family.Finnaly got off zanax(very unpleasent) , now will start on prozac???He doesn’t seem tolerante to these medications…sometimes making him worse.Depression started in again about a week ago…any good results with anything..including prozac?Bill

Xanax is a benzodiazepine, in the same class of drugs as Valium. It is commonly used to treat anxiety disorders, including anxiety due to depression However, ALL benzodiazepines are very sedating, and they should not be used for treatment of depressive disorders without anxiety. Prozac (fluoxetine) and Zoloft (sertraline) are Selective Serotonin Receptor uptake Inhibitors (SSRI’s) These constitute a newer class of antidepressants with greater specificity and proportedly lower incidence of side-effects, but YMMV. Since up to a third of diabetics (with studies ranging from 20 – 50%) will develop symptoms of depression during their lifetimes, depression is not uncommon and may respond to the right drug or combination of drugs for treatment of the depression. Parenthetically, Tricyclic anitdepressants (TCA) like Elavil (ami ryptaline), Desipramine (norpramine) and Imipramine (Tofranil) have also been effectively used to manage pain due to peripheral diabetic neuropathy. Hope things go well for Dad.

Response:

Your information about the seratonin receptors, Prozac and Zoloft was most interesting.  You say, one third of all diabetics suffer from depression. Would this account for "black moods"?  Moods that seem to make one snappy and irritable?  Would that constitue depression or just a borderline kind of thing one needs to live with?  Are there any nonmedicational prescriptions that are just as effective. If on Prozac, do people tend to become more conscientious about taking care of themselves. I tend to find that there is a cycle at play.  Feeling bad, overeating, raised sugars, feeling irritable, eating, etc. What are your thoughts?  Is Prozac effective incombating some of these cyclic problems?  Do you find that Prozac or Zoloft is effective in helping with relationships. The family is taking quite a beating.

Response:

<snip He doesn’t seem tolerante to these medications…sometimes making him worse.Depression started in again about a week ago…any good results with anything..including prozac?Bill

Karen Knox Responds: I have had good luck with zoloft, which is a cousin to prozac.  I did have some naseau at first and jumped between being tired and jittery. I am now taking my 150 mgs in the am which allows me to sleep at night. Not all have this good experiemce.  I have taken Pamelor and had good results, but the side effects were very hard for me (dry mouth) because I teach.  Good luck. Karen Knox in chilly Maine

Response:

My 80 year old farther(in pretty good shape looks more like 65) has bouts of depression…last time lasted 2 months and had to move in  with me and my family.Finnaly got off zanax(very unpleasent) , now will start on prozac???He doesn’t seem tolerante to these medications…sometimes making him worse.Depression started in again about a week ago…any good results with anything..including prozac?Bill

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am s depressed. Can someone help me? I am reading Diabetis For Dummies. It is a good book but so depressing. I can not keep my glucose under control. Yes, it is depressing, no different than dealing with any other chronic health problems. I *strongly* urge you to either find or start a support/social group with other diabetics in your area. Having access to that kind of accumilated wisdom is great and inspiring, but sometimes you just need a hug from someone who’s been there, and you can’t get that from the Usenet. I read if you’ve had one heart attack you have a 80% chance of having another within 5 years. I’ve gon 4 and a half. Does that mean I only have 6 mths left? Please help me. My father has had two heart transplants, about two years apart. After the second one, he was told that he likely had only seven years to live (the typical expectency for someone having a transplant and already on anti-rejection medication.) That was almost 13 years ago, and he is still very much alive, healthy and (to my great happiness) spending his children’s inheritence with abandon The statistics are merely *averages*. For every three people who have a second heart attack within five years, there is one who has it sooner and one who has it latter. There are people who, because of changes in their lifestyles, NEVER have a second. Certainly you’ve learned the drill from your reading, so repeat after me: "I will NOT have seconds. I will NOT have seconds…."

Hello, I’m new to the group but have some input on your subject.  As to the Depression, if it lasts more than a week or so seek professional help.  I know as I am a Manic/Depressive (BiPolar I) and I have an Anxiety Disorder.  These I’ve been treated for over 6 years now and its under control. I just found out 8 months ago I was a Type II Diabetic, tried several of the pills but they didn’t agree with my IBC (Irritable Bowel Syndrome) so I take Humulin N injections 1x a day.  At the beginning this started to depress me but with the help of my therapist and a positive attitude that it was just another bump in the road of life I have accepted my condition. As to worrying about another heart attach, well my father died about 3 days after his 48th birthday of heart disease and from the age of 30 to 47 I worried about it or thought about it almost every day.  I’m now 48 1/2 and realize that all that worry was for nothing.  I enjoy each day as though it might be my last.  Treat others as I would like to be treated, go to Mass regularly and try to follow my doctors advice as well as educate myself on my various illness’s. Your on your way with the education part, now just accept you have it and learn to deal with it. "The Internet is like a giant jellyfish. You can’t step on it. You can’t go around it. You’ve got to get through it."                                 -John Evans TIA & Regards, Tom  

Question:

ENOUGH WITH THE DAMN ACCESS DEBATE THREADS! Living in the UK, I frequently unsubscribe from rec.boats.paddle because there’s too much which isn’t relevant to the UK paddler.   When I resubscribe (as I did last month), I’m always delighted when I find that Scott Weiser is still winding up paddlers, especially in the US. Best wishes

What a compliment.  Many thanks…. Regards, Scott Weiser ****** "I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend upon my friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" ****** http://www.dimensional.com/~weiser/ Copyright 1998 by Scott Weiser Under the UCC, by the act of transmitting any commercial e-mail advertisment to this address, you are expressly contracting with me in my professional capacity for a consultation on the ad’s effectiveness and you expressly agree to pay to me the sum of $250.00 for each such consultation within 10 days of my report to the original sending address.  You further expressly agree that all actions for recovery of fees owed shall be subject solely to the laws of the State of Colorado, which shall have sole jurisdiction.

Response:

ENOUGH WITH THE DAMN ACCESS DEBATE THREADS!

Living in the UK, I frequently unsubscribe from rec.boats.paddle because there’s too much which isn’t relevant to the UK paddler.   When I resubscribe (as I did last month), I’m always delighted when I find that Scott Weiser is still winding up paddlers, especially in the US. Best wishes Keith — |/| |_  |_) |_) /    /   canoeing instead of climbing when I |  | |__ | | /    __/  realised I could swim but not fly!"

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It’s all well and good to say that you, one individual boater, does no identifiable harm, but this ignores the impacts of scale, and when a hundred, or a thousand, or ten thousand boaters use the area, the cumulative impacts become significant.  Just look at the Grand Canyon. yes – and that’s why most public lands that incur use impacts are placed in management plans. These plans seek to find the right balance – though I’ll admit it can be arbitrary – especially when it comes to mulltiple-use determinations. It’s a delicate balance of the two, but remember that preserving to pass stewardship on does *not* necessarily mean passing it to the public who want to use the land for recreation. indeed. the ‘public’ is the government. All land public or private is regulation by Federal, State, and local laws that prevent land-owners from using their land when the impacts of such use affect the public. If you don’t believe this.. try something like a 1000 head feed-lot on your property… or placer mining… or eve condos… none of these will you do without a ‘permit’ and the government decides on behalf of the public if your proposal is ‘in the public interest’. Some folks of late consider these ‘takings’ but underlying ‘public interest’ concept is intact.

This is true, and I’ve never denied the validity of properly constructed land-use law, but *restricting* a property owner’s use to protect the health, welfare and safety of the public is substantially different from *appropriating* his property for the use of the public. But this is true ONLY IF the 100 cattle *do* damage the riverbank. Such impacts are not really comparative in nature.  Negative impacts cause by paddlers are not "better", or "less negative" impacts simply because they are caused by a paddler instead of a cow, they stand on their own, and when those impacts are unnecessary to begin with, they are that much more improper. hmmm.. they *are* comparative in terms of impacts… whether it is recreation, farming, mining.. all of these distill down to impacts that can be quantified in terms of water quality, habitat destruction, etc.  

Yes, but an unnecessary impact is an unnecessary impact, no matter how small it may be. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Cattle may cause negative impacts, which can be mitigated by proper management practices, but cattle are *necessary* impacts in most cases, because they are what pay the taxes and create the profits that are used to continue to preserve the area.   It’s all well and good to say "cattle-free in 2003" or whatever (though this mostly applies to federal lands) but the bills have to get paid somehow.     I suppose when paddlers fork over the thousands of dollars a year to pay the taxes and maintain the property, then I’ll consider allowing them to trespass.   Until then, their impacts, however slight, are *not necessary* to the preservation of the resource, and therefore they are justifiably banned. "can be mitigated by proper management practices" leaves it up to the landowner whoever that happens to be at a given time. this does not work when money is involved. Many landowners justify the destruction of the land they own for ‘economic benefits’. You are not unilaterally entitled to un-regulated economic activity just because you own the land. Your activity has to be compatible with the ‘public interest’ as there is hardly anything (economic)  you can do on your property that won’t ultimately affect the public. There are thousands and thousands of local, state, federal laws that restrict you every which way from Sunday. You may consider recreation not necessary – the public may think otherwise – the same goes for what you think is ‘necessary’. If you public disagrees with you then you may be restricted.

Absolutely correct, but the fact that the government may regulate my activities in the public interest has no nexus to my ability to regulate YOUR activities on my land.  As we have seen, even the government recognizes the impacts of recreationalists on public waters and has chosen to regulate them as well.  I’m not sure what your point is. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  I’am also amused by the ’scaring the wildlife’ argument – somewhat because there may be a ‘hint’ of truth for some species but how many species in the last few decades have been not only ’scared’ but just plain wiped-out because the habitat they lived on was used by the landowner for ‘other purposes’? Again, you are comparing apples and oranges.  The fact that species and habitat may have been impacted by landowners is a broad generalization and an irrelevant comparison.   In my case this is not the case, as is true in many other places, and you cannot claim that your impacts are legitimate merely because other impacts occur. Your impacts stand alone, on their own merits, and you are not excused by the bad behavior of others.   Using your logic, you should be able to toss beer cans on the bank, leave rubbish around and cut down trees for firewood just because somebody else does so somewhere else. That’s fallacious logic at best. I follow the consistency argument and agree but behavior is governed by law whether it occurs on private or public property – though different laws may apply depending on the behavior – for instance some usually can be arrested for ’speeding on your property’ because the law does not apply to private property.

I don’t understand.  You seem to be contradicting yourself. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If the ’scaring the wildlife’ arugment were true then most of the official ‘wild & scenic’ rivers in this nation – which are heavily travelled by recreation paddlers – would be completely devoid of wildlife. The reverse is true – once the land is dedicated by recreational use ONLY – the wildlife return and thrive.. and with the exception of certain ’shy’ species become confortable with humans – especially if they are not shooting them. It’s not the presence of the human itself that disturbs most animals – it is WHAT the human is doing and animals *know* that there is risk is hanging around. This is simply not true.  No one said that the riparian zone would become ‘devoid’ of life, and while wildlife may become habituated to some degree, the stresses of human intrusion *remain* to negatively affect populations and vigor.   And that wildlife you may see, which may be habituated, ignores those "shy" species, which are in the majority, which may indeed leave the area altogether, or may simply begin a gradual decline. Our federal lands are managed for *multiple* use with the recognition that humans *will* have impacts, and those impacts are balanced against the benefits which accrue to the public.  Factually, from a political point of view, it would be highly desireable to simply forbid human access to *most* wilderness areas in order to preserve the habitat, but it’s politically impossible to do so, so we instead try to mitigate the impacts we do have.  That’s why permit systems are cropping up on more and more rivers.  The impacts of scale have become clear and limitations are required to preserve the resource. Indeed – with respect to ‘wilderness designation’, it’s not the paddlers or recreation folks or environmentalists that are fighting it.. it’s the folks that want to build roads and use motors. Impacts from recreation are easily mitigated.. you employ a permit system and if an area has eagle nests.. then you close it off entirely. The right fringe/landowner rights movement is trying to strike down all of these laws.. they want it all wide open … so that power boats, ski doos, etc can you AND the impacts ARE comparative. 100 canoes CAN and ARE compared to 100 ski-doos. One single four-wheel drive can severly damage a trail… and it has become recognized that hikers can do but it’ll take a 1000 of them… so you permit the use.. no 4-wheel and only 10 hikers per day.. etc etc

True, but largely irrelevant.  You do prove my point however that mitigating and preventing impacts is a legitimate method of preserving the resource. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The ‘difficulty’ is that if Colorado actually did what you suggest – that there would be a firestorm and the arugment would be over with very quickly. You would lose big time. Very significant tourism and the public’s perception of being ‘welcome’ are involved. No sane public official would even consider it.. that’ why they’re content to let it be the way it is. Public officials don’t make the decisions, wrong… if the public doesn’t like the court decision they’ll change the law. The ‘law’ is determined by the legislature which consists of publically-elected officials. the Courts do.   No amount of feverish desire in pursuit of the almighty dollar can prevent me, or someone else from filing a suit in court claiming an improper taking of private property for public use without just compensation. That’s the purpose of the Constitution, to prevent the tyranny of the majority and the infringements of the rights of the individual by the public. yep…but even the constition can be ammended if the people want it.

True, and when you succeed in repealing the Fifth Amendment, get back to me. While you are technically correct, you must recognize that private property ownership and the prohibitions against the government exproprating property without compensation are one of the core beliefs of our nation, and it’s simply not credible that the vast majority of the public, *who are property owners*, will tear up the Constitution simply to suit a *small number* of boating recreationists who aren’t satisfied with the public … read more »

Response:

 It’s all well and good to say that you, one individual boater, does no identifiable harm, but this ignores the impacts of scale, and when a hundred, or a thousand, or ten thousand boaters use the area, the cumulative impacts become significant.  Just look at the Grand Canyon.

yes – and that’s why most public lands that incur use impacts are placed in management plans. These plans seek to find the right balance – though I’ll admit it can be arbitrary – especially when it comes to mulltiple-use determinations. It’s a delicate balance of the two, but remember that preserving to pass stewardship on does *not* necessarily mean passing it to the public who want to use the land for recreation.

indeed. the ‘public’ is the government. All land public or private is regulation by Federal, State, and local laws that prevent land-owners from using their land when the impacts of such use affect the public. If you don’t believe this.. try something like a 1000 head feed-lot on your property… or placer mining… or eve condos… none of these will you do without a ‘permit’ and the government decides on behalf of the public if your proposal is ‘in the public interest’. Some folks of late consider these ‘takings’ but underlying ‘public interest’ concept is intact. But this is true ONLY IF the 100 cattle *do* damage the riverbank. Such impacts are not really comparative in nature.  Negative impacts cause by paddlers are not "better", or "less negative" impacts simply because they are caused by a paddler instead of a cow, they stand on their own, and when those impacts are unnecessary to begin with, they are that much more improper.

 hmmm.. they *are* comparative in terms of impacts… whether it is recreation, farming, mining.. all of these distill down to impacts that can be quantified in terms of water quality, habitat destruction, etc.   Cattle may cause negative impacts, which can be mitigated by proper management practices, but cattle are *necessary* impacts in most cases, because they are what pay the taxes and create the profits that are used to continue to preserve the area.   It’s all well and good to say "cattle-free in 2003" or whatever (though this mostly applies to federal lands) but the bills have to get paid somehow.     I suppose when paddlers fork over the thousands of dollars a year to pay the taxes and maintain the property, then I’ll consider allowing them to trespass.   Until then, their impacts, however slight, are *not necessary* to the preservation of the resource, and therefore they are justifiably banned.

"can be mitigated by proper management practices" leaves it up to the landowner whoever that happens to be at a given time. this does not work when money is involved. Many landowners justify the destruction of the land they own for ‘economic benefits’. You are not unilaterally entitled to un-regulated economic activity just because you own the land. Your activity has to be compatible with the ‘public interest’ as there is hardly anything (economic)  you can do on your property that won’t ultimately affect the public. There are thousands and thousands of local, state, federal laws that restrict you every which way from Sunday. You may consider recreation not necessary – the public may think otherwise – the same goes for what you think is ‘necessary’. If you public disagrees with you then you may be restricted. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  I’am also amused by the ’scaring the wildlife’ argument – somewhat because there may be a ‘hint’ of truth for some species but how many species in the last few decades have been not only ’scared’ but just plain wiped-out because the habitat they lived on was used by the landowner for ‘other purposes’? Again, you are comparing apples and oranges.  The fact that species and habitat may have been impacted by landowners is a broad generalization and an irrelevant comparison.   In my case this is not the case, as is true in many other places, and you cannot claim that your impacts are legitimate merely because other impacts occur. Your impacts stand alone, on their own merits, and you are not excused by the bad behavior of others.   Using your logic, you should be able to toss beer cans on the bank, leave rubbish around and cut down trees for firewood just because somebody else does so somewhere else. That’s fallacious logic at best.

I follow the consistency argument and agree but behavior is governed by law whether it occurs on private or public property – though different laws may apply depending on the behavior – for instance some usually can be arrested for ’speeding on your property’ because the law does not apply to private property. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If the ’scaring the wildlife’ arugment were true then most of the official ‘wild & scenic’ rivers in this nation – which are heavily travelled by recreation paddlers – would be completely devoid of wildlife. The reverse is true – once the land is dedicated by recreational use ONLY – the wildlife return and thrive.. and with the exception of certain ’shy’ species become confortable with humans – especially if they are not shooting them. It’s not the presence of the human itself that disturbs most animals – it is WHAT the human is doing and animals *know* that there is risk is hanging around. This is simply not true.  No one said that the riparian zone would become ‘devoid’ of life, and while wildlife may become habituated to some degree, the stresses of human intrusion *remain* to negatively affect populations and vigor.   And that wildlife you may see, which may be habituated, ignores those "shy" species, which are in the majority, which may indeed leave the area altogether, or may simply begin a gradual decline. Our federal lands are managed for *multiple* use with the recognition that humans *will* have impacts, and those impacts are balanced against the benefits which accrue to the public.  Factually, from a political point of view, it would be highly desireable to simply forbid human access to *most* wilderness areas in order to preserve the habitat, but it’s politically impossible to do so, so we instead try to mitigate the impacts we do have.  That’s why permit systems are cropping up on more and more rivers.  The impacts of scale have become clear and limitations are required to preserve the resource.

Indeed – with respect to ‘wilderness designation’, it’s not the paddlers or recreation folks or environmentalists that are fighting it.. it’s the folks that want to build roads and use motors. Impacts from recreation are easily mitigated.. you employ a permit system and if an area has eagle nests.. then you close it off entirely. The right fringe/landowner rights movement is trying to strike down all of these laws.. they want it all wide open … so that power boats, ski doos, etc can you AND the impacts ARE comparative. 100 canoes CAN and ARE compared to 100 ski-doos. One single four-wheel drive can severly damage a trail… and it has become recognized that hikers can do but it’ll take a 1000 of them… so you permit the use.. no 4-wheel and only 10 hikers per day.. etc etc The ‘difficulty’ is that if Colorado actually did what you suggest – that there would be a firestorm and the arugment would be over with very quickly. You would lose big time. Very significant tourism and the public’s perception of being ‘welcome’ are involved. No sane public official would even consider it.. that’ why they’re content to let it be the way it is. Public officials don’t make the decisions,

wrong… if the public doesn’t like the court decision they’ll change the law. The ‘law’ is determined by the legislature which consists of publically-elected officials. the Courts do.   No amount of feverish desire in pursuit of the almighty dollar can prevent me, or someone else from filing a suit in court claiming an improper taking of private property for public use without just compensation. That’s the purpose of the Constitution, to prevent the tyranny of the majority and the infringements of the rights of the individual by the public.

 yep…but even the constition can be ammended if the people want it. If I were to do as I suggest, *something* would happen, either the trespassers would be arrested, or *I* would be arrested for "illegally" preventing them from trespassing, or they would file a suit, or I would.  And as soon as the matter comes to court, the LAW rules, and I am quite confident in the strength of my legal case.

Like I said… if the law in Colorado was rigidly enforced along the lines that you suggest… and paddlers were kicked off of the major streams.. you could expect the law to change – regardless of how the courts feel. When you have a law like they have in Colorado and it’s not enforced.. there is a message in it. Federal Laws can force changes in Colorado law also – and do all the time. In the end… in a democracy… "rights" are decided by the people. You have no "right" to economic activity or even landowner rights if the public that votes disagrees with you. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Regards, Scott Weiser ****** "I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend upon my friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" ****** http://www.dimensional.com/~weiser/ Copyright 1998 by Scott Weiser Under the UCC, by the act of transmitting any commercial e-mail advertisment to this address, you are expressly contracting with me in my professional capacity for a consultation on the ad’s effectiveness and you expressly agree to pay to me the sum of $250.00 for each such consultation within 10 days of my report to the original sending address.  You further expressly agree that all actions for recovery of fees owed shall be subject solely to the laws of the State of Colorado, which shall have sole

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Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Correct, and the point is that *somebody* just might own such places, and you could lose the access in a heartbeat due to the malefactions of one or two individual paddlers. yep – actually this is more common that most folks either know or will admit. In Virginia – The Cowpasture River ( not great whitewater but a really beautify mountain river) is essentially off-limits. Others include Back Creek and the Jackson. Had a little old lady point a long-barreled 45 at our group on the Bullpasture. She wanted us off of "her damned land" NOW! People have been arrested in the past and many others are "warned" by local landowners before they even put in. Interestingly, we *used* to be able to get permission from the landowner group for a number of years and then suddenly we were refused. Not because we had done anything wrong – we ALWAYS sought permission and ALWAYS were polite –  but because 1 landowner out of dozens didn’t want ANYBODY and didn’t care whether they were polite or respectful or anything else. End of story. All of years of carefully trying to not step on anyones toes went for naught. Um….I think this qualifies as a "broad generalization" of the type which Richard was objecting to when applied to paddlers, so I guess I have to object to it when applied to "landowners".   After all, my purpose is not to develop or destroy the resource, it’s to protect it from the damage caused by public use. yep, i erred in the generalization. there is a link however. I don’t buy your ‘protection’ argument. I’ve paddled hundreds of rivers in 30 years of boating and damage, if any, is miniscule compared to cattle, 4 wheelers, local trash dumps, roadside dumps, fishermen – believe it of not!, logging, farming, and industry.

This may be true elsewhere, but the fact that others may cause more damage does not reduce the impacts which boaters cause, and since whatever those impacts are are unnecessary, it’s perfectly proper to prevent them. Actually, of late, many rivers have been saved from damage by pointing out that they are used significantly for recreation. also interesting is that once a River becomes officially protected and becomes a destination for paddlers – the localities reap economic benefit AND the river then becomes essentially off-limits to single-minded proposals that *would* damage it.

If economic benefits were the only criteria perhaps this would be valid.   You do make a valid point that public awareness of the particular value of a particular river can be helpful in protecting the resource, but far too often the negative impacts of public access do more harm than good.   It’s all well and good to say that you, one individual boater, does no identifiable harm, but this ignores the impacts of scale, and when a hundred, or a thousand, or ten thousand boaters use the area, the cumulative impacts become significant.  Just look at the Grand Canyon. It’s a delicate balance of the two, but remember that preserving to pass stewardship on does *not* necessarily mean passing it to the public who want to use the land for recreation. I don’t think it is a ‘delicate balance’ at all. In most cases, it is fairly clear what the landowners intentions are.. you can see it in the way they take care of ( or not ) the land. Recreation does not harm the land on near the same scale as say cattle. A hundred cattle can totally ruin a river bank and turn a clean stream into a mess. A 100 paddlers – even if they all urinated in unison wouldn’t even come close.

But this is true ONLY IF the 100 cattle *do* damage the riverbank. Such impacts are not really comparative in nature.  Negative impacts cause by paddlers are not "better", or "less negative" impacts simply because they are caused by a paddler instead of a cow, they stand on their own, and when those impacts are unnecessary to begin with, they are that much more improper.   Cattle may cause negative impacts, which can be mitigated by proper management practices, but cattle are *necessary* impacts in most cases, because they are what pay the taxes and create the profits that are used to continue to preserve the area.   It’s all well and good to say "cattle-free in 2003" or whatever (though this mostly applies to federal lands) but the bills have to get paid somehow.     I suppose when paddlers fork over the thousands of dollars a year to pay the taxes and maintain the property, then I’ll consider allowing them to trespass.   Until then, their impacts, however slight, are *not necessary* to the preservation of the resource, and therefore they are justifiably banned.  I’am also amused by the ’scaring the wildlife’ argument – somewhat because there may be a ‘hint’ of truth for some species but how many species in the last few decades have been not only ’scared’ but just plain wiped-out because the habitat they lived on was used by the landowner for ‘other purposes’?

Again, you are comparing apples and oranges.  The fact that species and habitat may have been impacted by landowners is a broad generalization and an irrelevant comparison.   In my case this is not the case, as is true in many other places, and you cannot claim that your impacts are legitimate merely because other impacts occur. Your impacts stand alone, on their own merits, and you are not excused by the bad behavior of others.   Using your logic, you should be able to toss beer cans on the bank, leave rubbish around and cut down trees for firewood just because somebody else does so somewhere else. That’s fallacious logic at best. If the ’scaring the wildlife’ arugment were true then most of the official ‘wild & scenic’ rivers in this nation – which are heavily travelled by recreation paddlers – would be completely devoid of wildlife. The reverse is true – once the land is dedicated by recreational use ONLY – the wildlife return and thrive.. and with the exception of certain ’shy’ species become confortable with humans – especially if they are not shooting them. It’s not the presence of the human itself that disturbs most animals – it is WHAT the human is doing and animals *know* that there is risk is hanging around.

This is simply not true.  No one said that the riparian zone would become ‘devoid’ of life, and while wildlife may become habituated to some degree, the stresses of human intrusion *remain* to negatively affect populations and vigor.   And that wildlife you may see, which may be habituated, ignores those "shy" species, which are in the majority, which may indeed leave the area altogether, or may simply begin a gradual decline. Our federal lands are managed for *multiple* use with the recognition that humans *will* have impacts, and those impacts are balanced against the benefits which accrue to the public.  Factually, from a political point of view, it would be highly desireable to simply forbid human access to *most* wilderness areas in order to preserve the habitat, but it’s politically impossible to do so, so we instead try to mitigate the impacts we do have.  That’s why permit systems are cropping up on more and more rivers.  The impacts of scale have become clear and limitations are required to preserve the resource. Those impacts are just as present on Boulder Creek, though to a lesser degree.   The difficulty is that many jurisdictions are relying upon the  *** snip legal rambling **** Pity I don’t own such a parcel…..I could bring this thing to a head quite quickly…. The ‘difficulty’ is that if Colorado actually did what you suggest – that there would be a firestorm and the arugment would be over with very quickly. You would lose big time. Very significant tourism and the public’s perception of being ‘welcome’ are involved. No sane public official would even consider it.. that’ why they’re content to let it be the way it is.

Public officials don’t make the decisions, the Courts do.   No amount of feverish desire in pursuit of the almighty dollar can prevent me, or someone else from filing a suit in court claiming an improper taking of private property for public use without just compensation. That’s the purpose of the Constitution, to prevent the tyranny of the majority and the infringements of the rights of the individual by the public. If I were to do as I suggest, *something* would happen, either the trespassers would be arrested, or *I* would be arrested for "illegally" preventing them from trespassing, or they would file a suit, or I would.  And as soon as the matter comes to court, the LAW rules, and I am quite confident in the strength of my legal case. Regards, Scott Weiser ****** "I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend upon my friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" ****** http://www.dimensional.com/~weiser/ Copyright 1998 by Scott Weiser Under the UCC, by the act of transmitting any commercial e-mail advertisment to this address, you are expressly contracting with me in my professional capacity for a consultation on the ad’s effectiveness and you expressly agree to pay to me the sum of $250.00 for each such consultation within 10 days of my report to the original sending address.  You further expressly agree that all actions for recovery of fees owed shall be subject solely to the laws of the State of Colorado, which shall have sole jurisdiction.

Response:

Correct, and the point is that *somebody* just might own such places, and you could lose the access in a heartbeat due to the malefactions of one or two individual paddlers.

 yep – actually this is more common that most folks either know or will admit. In Virginia – The Cowpasture River ( not great whitewater but a really beautify mountain river) is essentially off-limits. Others include Back Creek and the Jackson. Had a little old lady point a long-barreled 45 at our group on the Bullpasture. She wanted us off of "her damned land" NOW!  People have been arrested in the past and many others are "warned" by local landowners before they even put in. Interestingly, we *used* to be able to get permission from the landowner group for a number of years and then suddenly we were refused. Not because we had done anything wrong – we ALWAYS sought permission and ALWAYS were polite –  but because 1 landowner out of dozens didn’t want ANYBODY and didn’t care whether they were polite or respectful or anything else. End of story. All of years of carefully trying to not step on anyones toes went for naught. Um….I think this qualifies as a "broad generalization" of the type which Richard was objecting to when applied to paddlers, so I guess I have to object to it when applied to "landowners".   After all, my purpose is not to develop or destroy the resource, it’s to protect it from the damage caused by public use.

 yep, i erred in the generalization. there is a link however. I don’t buy your ‘protection’ argument. I’ve paddled hundreds of rivers in 30 years of boating and damage, if any, is miniscule compared to cattle, 4 wheelers, local trash dumps, roadside dumps, fishermen – believe it of not!, logging, farming, and industry. Actually, of late, many rivers have been saved from damage by pointing out that they are used significantly for recreation. also interesting is that once a River becomes officially protected and becomes a destination for paddlers – the localities reap economic benefit AND the river then becomes essentially off-limits to single-minded proposals that *would* damage it. It’s a delicate balance of the two, but remember that preserving to pass stewardship on does *not* necessarily mean passing it to the public who want to use the land for recreation.

I don’t think it is a ‘delicate balance’ at all. In most cases, it is fairly clear what the landowners intentions are.. you can see it in the way they take care of ( or not ) the land. Recreation does not harm the land on near the same scale as say cattle. A hundred cattle can totally ruin a river bank and turn a clean stream into a mess. A 100 paddlers – even if they all urinated in unison wouldn’t even come close.  I’am also amused by the ’scaring the wildlife’ argument – somewhat because there may be a ‘hint’ of truth for some species but how many species in the last few decades have been not only ’scared’ but just plain wiped-out because the habitat they lived on was used by the landowner for ‘other purposes’? If the ’scaring the wildlife’ arugment were true then most of the official ‘wild & scenic’ rivers in this nation – which are heavily travelled by recreation paddlers – would be completely devoid of wildlife. The reverse is true – once the land is dedicated by recreational use ONLY – the wildlife return and thrive.. and with the exception of certain ’shy’ species become confortable with humans – especially if they are not shooting them. It’s not the presence of the human itself that disturbs most animals – it is WHAT the human is doing and animals *know* that there is risk is hanging around. The difficulty is that many jurisdictions are relying upon the

  *** snip legal rambling **** Pity I don’t own such a parcel…..I could bring this thing to a head quite quickly….

 The ‘difficulty’ is that if Colorado actually did what you suggest – that there would be a firestorm and the arugment would be over with very quickly. You would lose big time. Very significant tourism and the public’s perception of being ‘welcome’ are involved. No sane public official would even consider it.. that’ why they’re content to let it be the way it is. Absolutely correct, and only by dialog between landowners and river users can such conflicts be peacefully and properly resolved with benefit to everyone.

I actually agree with the basic premise that no one is guanranteed access to private land because they are engaging in what they perceive as a ‘noble’ activity. Usually, it’s scumballs who cloak themselves with the ‘noble activity’ and then abuse the landowner. We’ve seen it with hunting and to some extent with boating. I’ve always subscribed to the idea that if someone owns the land that *I* need to *ask permission* and if they refuse – they refuse. It is their right. It burns my butt when 99 paddlers are polite and ask permission and then Mr asshole waltz’s in and screws it up for everybody. Folks from the ‘big’ cities are often the worst offenders. For some odd reason, I’ve never been able to understand they think they are ‘entitled’ to treaspass once in the rural landscape. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Regards, Scott Weiser ****** "I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend upon my friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" ****** http://www.dimensional.com/~weiser/ Copyright 1998 by Scott Weiser Under the UCC, by the act of transmitting any commercial e-mail advertisment to this address, you are expressly contracting with me in my professional capacity for a consultation on the ad’s effectiveness and you expressly agree to pay to me the sum of $250.00 for each such consultation within 10 days of my report to the original sending address.  You further expressly agree that all actions for recovery of fees owed shall be subject solely to the laws of the State of Colorado, which shall have sole jurisdiction.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am willing to conceed to Scott that there is a valid interest in these dicussions on this newsgroup, but I do wish I could make the "NOT weiser" boolean search request work on my newsreader client.  The problem I have with these posts is that Scott seems to be preoccupied with preaching legal findings and citing past relevant rulings to paddlers that are responding back with statements like "If I can paddle it, the river is navigable!" and "Just try to stop me!".  Reading these threads is like sitting in a nicely furnished living room watching an acclaimed vet scold his dog by using the following phrase…"Sparky, the reason you should not urinate on the carpet is because the acidic nature of your fluid excrement has an adverse effect on both the optical appearance of this synthetic-based floor covering and also tends to react unpleasantly with the olfactory processes of myself and my house guests. Please, Sparky, give me a reason why I should not confine you to your pre-designated travel container."  Whereas, the more intelligent vet, the person that learns through careful observation would say "Bad Dog, go to your box.", realizing that dogs do not make for good argument.

ROTFLMAO.   What a hoot….I had not thought to compare kayakers to untrainable dogs.   I sort of thought by presenting the evidence in (hopefully) a manner which the average adult could understand, that people would discover the logic involved themselves and make good decisions based upon that knowledge.   I’ve had quite a bit of evidence that this is indeed the case. While you may tire of repetition (as I do), there is a constant stream of people who *don’t* understand and might like to who deserve to be informed of the controversy and the facts surrounding it so that they, too, can make informed decisions. My suggestion is that those who know the material and have made the decision, one way or the other, simply skip the threads altogether and allow those who *are* interested debate the matter with me in peace and quiet.   Unfortunately, those who have seen the material cannot seem to control themselves and insist on insulting me and interrupting valid and interesting conversations among others.  It’s a lot like a high-school student running into a class full of 8th graders and shouting "Hey, teach, shut the **ck up! I’ve heard all this before and you annoy me!" Why can’t those who don’t like the nature of the discussion simply switch off and go for a paddle and leave those who wish to discuss alone? I suspect it’s because such people are violently opposed to my particular argument and see it as dangerous, and decide to do whatever they can to disrupt the flow of information.  It’s a lame attempt at censorship, nothing more, and I’ll tell you here and now it won’t work. I guess what I am trying to say here is that the best communicators are the ones that can tailor a response, argumentative or otherwise, to the intended audience.  Make your point and make it clear.  There is nothing wrong with being a highly intelligent, well versed, individual, but make no mistake…a highly- intelligent, well-versed idiot is still an idiot. Finally, Scott, if you feel the need to reply to this posting, I will assume that you deem me a colleague worth engaging with in meaningful debate.      If your words truly express your feelings about me…

I think you have made a trenchant statement of fact, and I appreciate your candor.  I hope that my reply is likewise informative.  We agree more  than we disagree, but I have a policy about "Shut the **ck UP!" threads, which is that I reply to them with whatever degree of politeness is called for until those posting to the thread….shut the **ck up. Then I return to the adult debates about access issues and the law with those who wish to discuss the issue.  When nobody cares to discuss it anymore, then the thread dies and I retreat to my place under the bridge for a time, until some event stimulates me to begin again, for a new crop of paddlers who may be in need of enlightenment. (Your Previous Posting) <CLIP If you don’t like the course of the conversation, then toddle off and start one of your own instead of sniping at the adults who are having an interesting discussion.   You sound like a three-year-old who’s whining and throwing a temper tantrum because Mommy is ignoring you. <CLIP …then why do you bother post a reply, I personally do not waste my time reasoning with someone that sounded like a spoiled three-year-old.

It’s not for *their* benefit, it’s for the benefit of others, and for my own amusement. If you do repond and I do not, please do not feel bad.  Sometimes I go out and paddle instead of talking about it in this newsgroup.

Good plan. BTW- I apologize for the YELLING in my first post, it was uncalled for.

No problem, I’m a very forgiving kind of guy. Regards, Scott Weiser ****** "I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend upon my friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" ****** http://www.dimensional.com/~weiser/ Copyright 1998 by Scott Weiser Under the UCC, by the act of transmitting any commercial e-mail advertisment to this address, you are expressly contracting with me in my professional capacity for a consultation on the ad’s effectiveness and you expressly agree to pay to me the sum of $250.00 for each such consultation within 10 days of my report to the original sending address.  You further expressly agree that all actions for recovery of fees owed shall be subject solely to the laws of the State of Colorado, which shall have sole jurisdiction.

Response:

Hey, hey. We should be counting our blessings. Suppose Mr. Weiser owned the put-in to the Ocoee or Chatooga?  

Correct, and the point is that *somebody* just might own such places, and you could lose the access in a heartbeat due to the malefactions of one or two individual paddlers. Paddlers need to know about folks like him AND how he thinks. Mr. Weiser is representative of many ‘landowner rights’ advocates some of whom also belong to the ‘Wise Use’ groups. They usually not only want to keep paddlers off the rivers but they want to develop their land in any way they please even if it destroys natural resources.

Um….I think this qualifies as a "broad generalization" of the type which Richard was objecting to when applied to paddlers, so I guess I have to object to it when applied to "landowners".   After all, my purpose is not to develop or destroy the resource, it’s to protect it from the damage caused by public use. Some folks think if they own land that it ‘ALL MINE’ and I can do with it what I want while others see themselves as temporary stewards responsible for passing the land on to others to also will practice stewardship.

It’s a delicate balance of the two, but remember that preserving to pass stewardship on does *not* necessarily mean passing it to the public who want to use the land for recreation. It is a significant movement and unless paddlers and others become involved and pay attention – you’ll see more and more rivers placed off-limits. I’m amazed that if Colorado Law is what Mr. Weiser sez it is that ANY rivers out there can be accessed legally. Something doesn’t fit. I wonder how popular rivers fare on the access issue in that state.

The difficulty is that many jurisdictions are relying upon the Attorney General’s opinion of the effects of changing the definition of "premises", including the state Department of Natural Resources, which leads to inconsistent enforcement of the law and a misunderstanding of the law itself.   The issue is still unresolved because no case has been brought to overturn the AG’s opinion and confirm the Emmert Court’s decision.   I hope it won’t come to that, because such a ruling would *shut down* public recreational use of most of the important recreational waters of the state, including the Number section of the Arkansas, which, while most of it is on BLM or Forest Service land, is criss-crossed by private "inholdings", any one of which could choose at any time to prohibit trespass and thereby destroy the ability to complete the float at all, since there’s no way to egress at the closed properties. This is why I propose a system which allows the state to, in this example, *condemn* a recreational easement if necessary to assure continued access to the entire run.  But the essential part is that the state must *pay for* the access.   After all, commercial whitewater recreation on the Arkansas is a multi-million dollar industry, which makes that easement quite valuable. I’ve suggested before the possibility that a landowner who owns a strip of land under the river somewhere in the middle of the popular section could simply take photos of every commercial raft which passes by in a season, identify the outfitter, count the number of heads and send them a bill at, say, $5.00 a head for a "trespass fee."    I imagine this would get the attention of the recreational community rather quickly. Pity I don’t own such a parcel…..I could bring this thing to a head quite quickly…. The thread has been excellent raising awareness  and I’ll bet more than a few now realize how important it is to contribute/join the AWA who works on behalf paddlers on access issues.

Absolutely correct, and only by dialog between landowners and river users can such conflicts be peacefully and properly resolved with benefit to everyone. Regards, Scott Weiser ****** "I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend upon my friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" ****** http://www.dimensional.com/~weiser/ Copyright 1998 by Scott Weiser Under the UCC, by the act of transmitting any commercial e-mail advertisment to this address, you are expressly contracting with me in my professional capacity for a consultation on the ad’s effectiveness and you expressly agree to pay to me the sum of $250.00 for each such consultation within 10 days of my report to the original sending address.  You further expressly agree that all actions for recovery of fees owed shall be subject solely to the laws of the State of Colorado, which shall have sole jurisdiction.

Response:

Shut Up, Shut up, Shut Up!!! For the love of God people please stop this nonesense. Like everyone else I give a damn but I’m F%#$ing tired of seeing all these lame Wesier posts. Dear lord have mercy on our souls!! T.J.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey, hey. We should be counting our blessings. Suppose Mr. Weiser owned the put-in to the Ocoee or Chatooga? Paddlers need to know about folks like him AND how he thinks. Mr. Weiser is representative of many ‘landowner rights’ advocates some of whom also belong to the ‘Wise Use’ groups. They usually not only want to keep paddlers off the rivers but they want to develop their land in any way they please even if it destroys natural resources. Some folks think if they own land that it ‘ALL MINE’ and I can do with it what I want while others see themselves as temporary stewards responsible for passing the land on to others to also will practice stewardship. It is a significant movement and unless paddlers and others become involved and pay attention – you’ll see more and more rivers placed off-limits. I’m amazed that if Colorado Law is what Mr. Weiser sez it is that ANY rivers out there can be accessed legally. Something doesn’t fit. I wonder how popular rivers fare on the access issue in that state. The thread has been excellent raising awareness  and I’ll bet more than a few now realize how important it is to contribute/join the AWA who works on behalf paddlers on access issues.

I will go against the spirit of my original post and add a few more coals to the fire. Larry, you make a good point here.  It is important that people reading this newsgroup realize the opinions of Scott and landowners like him.  I do admit that I skimmed over the legal content of your posting pretty lightly, because I myself (speaking only for myself) do not give much consideration to written law while paddling.  Not to say that I am a scofflaw, I just rely on simple common sense and judgement when leaving the city for a relaxing paddling trip.  In my opinion, many access laws are on the books for liability reasons.  There is a certain river here in the Southeast, that is officially banned from access.  I have been told by local law enforcement officials that they do not particularly mind paddlers on the river, nor do they bother them if the right attitude is excercised by the group.  The law was enacted to protect the state in the event of an unforseen accident.  When I paddle, I paddle until told not to.  If a local landowner expresses their concern in my paddling, I respect their wishes.  If I should get arrested and am legally "in the wrong", I pay my fine and do not visit that particular area again. This approach has not failed me yet. Mutual respect goes quite a long way here in the Southeast.  Maybe things are different in Colorado, I really do not know.  I am not saying we should feel that we have the right to paddle anywhere.  I am simply saying that 9 times out of ten, if you are not making a problem for anyone, people usually do not make problems for you.  If Mr. Weiser’s family property on Boulder Creek contains a fence to control livestock, and by Colorado law they have a right to maintain that fence, then I would say paddling that section does impose a problem on someone, so it shold be avoided.  It is quite possible that if there was no need for the fence, the Weisers may not care if their property is paddled across, who knows, it does not really matter.  If I am paddling down a "legal" creek and a trout fisherman has inadvertantly snagged his line across the river,  I wait, or help, or get out and walk around.  I do not care who is or is not supposed to be there. (enough rambling, I will try to make my point here.) I am willing to conceed to Scott that there is a valid interest in these dicussions on this newsgroup, but I do wish I could make the "NOT weiser" boolean search request work on my newsreader client.  The problem I have with these posts is that Scott seems to be preoccupied with preaching legal findings and citing past relevant rulings to paddlers that are responding back with statements like "If I can paddle it, the river is navigable!" and "Just try to stop me!".  Reading these threads is like sitting in a nicely furnished living room watching an acclaimed vet scold his dog by using the following phrase…"Sparky, the reason you should not urinate on the carpet is because the acidic nature of your fluid excrement has an adverse effect on both the optical appearance of this synthetic-based floor covering and also tends to react unpleasantly with the olfactory processes of myself and my house guests. Please, Sparky, give me a reason why I should not confine you to your pre-designated travel container."  Whereas, the more intelligent vet, the person that learns through careful observation would say "Bad Dog, go to your box.", realizing that dogs do not make for good argument. I guess what I am trying to say here is that the best communicators are the ones that can tailor a response, argumentative or otherwise, to the intended audience.  Make your point and make it clear.  There is nothing wrong with being a highly intelligent, well versed, individual, but make no mistake…a highly- intelligent, well-versed idiot is still an idiot. Finally, Scott, if you feel the need to reply to this posting, I will assume that you deem me a colleague worth engaging with in meaningful debate.  If your words truly express your feelings about me… (Your Previous Posting) <CLIP If you don’t like the course of the conversation, then toddle off and start one of your own instead of sniping at the adults who are having an interesting discussion.   You sound like a three-year-old who’s whining and throwing a temper tantrum because Mommy is ignoring you.

<CLIP …then why do you bother post a reply, I personally do not waste my time reasoning with someone that sounded like a spoiled three-year-old. If you do repond and I do not, please do not feel bad.  Sometimes I go out and paddle instead of talking about it in this newsgroup. BTW- I apologize for the YELLING in my first post, it was uncalled for. SYOTR (well maybe 99.9% of you) -Craig

Response:

From, Mick "Better to be paddlin’ hard than hardly paddlin’ "

Response:

I think it’s kind of funny. Near the beginning of the great return of Weiser, everyone was more or less agreeing with him. Now he’s isolated himself against the NG again by posting more to this newsgroup on a few days than I have since I’ve started looking at it.

Of course, the slingers of insults who *start* the threads have *nothing* to do with it…..not… If only the "vocal minority" were able to leave well enough alone, then perhaps these pyrotechnic offshoots wouldn’t happen, but of course, unable to audit their conduct, they just *have* to get a dig in there.   Well, poke me and I poke right back.  You want it to stop, you stop it. Regards, Scott Weiser ****** "I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend upon my friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" ****** http://www.dimensional.com/~weiser/ Copyright 1998 by Scott Weiser Under the UCC, by the act of transmitting any commercial e-mail advertisment to this address, you are expressly contracting with me in my professional capacity for a consultation on the ad’s effectiveness and you expressly agree to pay to me the sum of $250.00 for each such consultation within 10 days of my report to the original sending address.  You further expressly agree that all actions for recovery of fees owed shall be subject solely to the laws of the State of Colorado, which shall have sole jurisdiction.

Response:

Hey, hey. We should be counting our blessings. Suppose Mr. Weiser owned the put-in to the Ocoee or Chatooga?   Paddlers need to know about folks like him AND how he thinks. Mr. Weiser is representative of many ‘landowner rights’ advocates some of whom also belong to the ‘Wise Use’ groups. They usually not only want to keep paddlers off the rivers but they want to develop their land in any way they please even if it destroys natural resources. Some folks think if they own land that it ‘ALL MINE’ and I can do with it what I want while others see themselves as temporary stewards responsible for passing the land on to others to also will practice stewardship. It is a significant movement and unless paddlers and others become involved and pay attention – you’ll see more and more rivers placed off-limits. I’m amazed that if Colorado Law is what Mr. Weiser sez it is that ANY rivers out there can be accessed legally. Something doesn’t fit. I wonder how popular rivers fare on the access issue in that state. The thread has been excellent raising awareness  and I’ll bet more than a few now realize how important it is to contribute/join the AWA who works on behalf paddlers on access issues.

Response:

I apologize in advance, but there really is no diplomatic way to state this… ENOUGH WITH THE DAMN ACCESS DEBATE THREADS!

Thank you for that trenchant commentary. I am a kayaker.  I view and post to this newsgroup in order to keep abreast of new happenings in the sport I love.

And access debates have nothing to do with your sport?   Boy, are you deluded. And just what makes you think that anyone else is obliged to give a rodent’s fundamental orifice about why YOU choose to participate here or what YOU like or want? When I see three postings (or threads) involving a river access issue, I think "Good debate, there have been some valid issues presented here".  When I see thirty posts, mostly by one individual, I think "These (expletive’in) people have nothing better to do with their time."

Well, I do rather enjoy jousting with the fine folks here…and the Netwits too.  It’s my time to waste though, so what’s your beef? Remember, I only post in reply to a query or discussion from someone else who, axiomatically, *is* interested in the subject. Please, If you are absolutely hot-and-bothered to the point that you are treating this news group like your own personal chat-room, I understand…But keep it private, e-mail is really an ideal medium for this type of thing. Don’t clog this otherwise interesting group with twenty different post that are essentially the same in content.

Clog the group?   Have you ever heard of a concept called the "delete" key?  How about the "down arrow" key?  Both of them will allow you to completely bypass any discussion which might cause consternation and confusion in your tiny mind. There’s and even better one….it’s called the "OFF" switch.  Use it in good health, but USE it. If the posts are the same in content, it’s because others keep asking the same questions, and as long as they do, I’ll keep responding to them because it’s the polite thing to do. For the record, Yes, I do now know that Scott Weiser(sp?) is very familiar with private domain laws in Colorado and he would prefer that kayakers show a little more respect towards his family’s legal wishes.  I also know that there are a lot of disrespectful boaters out there that believe once the water droplet leaves the cloud, it is there God-given right to use it at their convenience.  Well folks, these are things I learned in the first few posts. I can see both sides of the argument, but really do not give a flying (expletive)!

And so you would impose your will on everyone else, some of whom might be interested, simply because you don’t have the wit to skip a thread. How very altruistic of you.  If you have any other opinions that you think I am interested in past that point, know that I am not.  If any of you involved in this thread think of any other gems that need to be discussed pertaining to this topic. Please, WRITE YOUR (EXPLETIVE’IN) CONGRESSMAN OR SHUT THE (EXPLETIVE) UP!

Let me see if I can put this delicately……No. If you don’t like the course of the conversation, then toddle off and start one of your own instead of sniping at the adults who are having an interesting discussion.   You sound like a three-year-old who’s whining and throwing a temper tantrum because Mommy is ignoring you. Grow up and act like an adult. Regards, Scott Weiser ****** "I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend upon my friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" ****** http://www.dimensional.com/~weiser/ Copyright 1998 by Scott Weiser Under the UCC, by the act of transmitting any commercial e-mail advertisment to this address, you are expressly contracting with me in my professional capacity for a consultation on the ad’s effectiveness and you expressly agree to pay to me the sum of $250.00 for each such consultation within 10 days of my report to the original sending address.  You further expressly agree that all actions for recovery of fees owed shall be subject solely to the laws of the State of Colorado, which shall have sole jurisdiction.

Response:

I think it’s kind of funny. Near the beginning of the great return of Weiser, everyone was more or less agreeing with him. Now he’s isolated himself against the NG again by posting more to this newsgroup on a few days than I have since I’ve started looking at it. "Regards," Sam Glover

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You know, I agree with just about everything Scott said in this post. Nobody forces you to read every article on the newsgroup.  Just skip over the threads you don’t like.  I know we’ve gone over this subject a zillion times, but apparently we keep getting new people in the group who are not aware of the differences in access laws from place to place.  Some of these people want argue with Scott, but it really won’t do them any good–they can’t change the laws of the state of Colorado. They do, however, learn from the exchanges.  And for every person who posts in the thread, there are at least ten who are reading it and learning from it.  If paddlers improve their behaviour wrt access, then maybe some irate landowners who have the power to block access to put-ins or even to the entire river may decide that paddlers aren’t so bad.  If these threads improve our collective behaviour enough that the closure of just one river is avoided, then it will be worthwhile.

Well said. I do take issue with one of Scott’s statements, though. Remember, I only post in reply to a query or discussion from someone else who, axiomatically, *is* interested in the subject. Scott, you were the first poster on this subject.  So one out of the dozens of your posts was NOT a repy.  (OK, I may be picking at straws there, but read on.)  Also, just the other day, you replied to a post that was completely unrelated (i.e. had nothing to do with access), and did so in a manner that seemed (to me) aimed at starting another big thread.  Hence, you do not ONLY post to reply to questions about access, although I would agree that the vast majority of your posts are valid replies.  If you had said that you "usually" or "generally only reply… then I would have no argument with your statement.

Well, you’ve got me there.  I admit to priming the pan from time to time, but you can hardly blame me when the flash occurs.   It’s possible for everyone to simply ignore my flashy lures, but it’s also highly unlikely, as I have discovered, and so I take advantage of that phenomenon to stimulate debate, and this has been another interesting and lively debate, and, as you so succintly said, some people learned something new.  Whether they like what they learned, or agree with it is unimportant, what’s important is that they have had their horizons expanded, which is *always* a good thing. Regards, Scott Weiser ****** "I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend upon my friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" ****** http://www.dimensional.com/~weiser/ Copyright 1998 by Scott Weiser Under the UCC, by the act of transmitting any commercial e-mail advertisment to this address, you are expressly contracting with me in my professional capacity for a consultation on the ad’s effectiveness and you expressly agree to pay to me the sum of $250.00 for each such consultation within 10 days of my report to the original sending address.  You further expressly agree that all actions for recovery of fees owed shall be subject solely to the laws of the State of Colorado, which shall have sole jurisdiction.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I apologize in advance, but there really is no diplomatic way to state this… ENOUGH WITH THE DAMN ACCESS DEBATE THREADS! I am a kayaker.  I view and post to this newsgroup in order to keep abreast of new happenings in the sport I love. When I see three postings (or threads) involving a river access issue, I think "Good debate, there have been some valid issues presented here".  When I see thirty posts, mostly by one individual, I think "These (expletive’in) people have nothing better to do with their time." Please, If you are absolutely hot-and-bothered to the point that you are treating this news group like your own personal chat-room, I understand…But keep it private, e-mail is really an ideal medium for this type of thing. Don’t clog this otherwise interesting group with twenty different post that are essentially the same in content. For the record, Yes, I do now know that Scott Weiser(sp?) is very familiar with private domain laws in Colorado and he would prefer that kayakers show a little more respect towards his family’s legal wishes.  I also know that there are a lot of disrespectful boaters out there that believe once the water droplet leaves the cloud, it is there God-given right to use it at their convenience.  Well folks, these are things I learned in the first few posts. I can see both sides of the argument, but really do not give a flying (expletive)!  If you have any other opinions that you think I am interested in past that point, know that I am not.  If any of you involved in this thread think of any other gems that need to be discussed pertaining to this topic. Please, WRITE YOUR (EXPLETIVE’IN) CONGRESSMAN OR SHUT THE (EXPLETIVE) UP! By the way, if any of you would like to paddle this weekend, let me know Let me out of this concrete jungle, -Craig "no playboat yet" Geist

You better watch out buddy … you started a new possible deadly feud here … you better know that Mr. Weiser is a very fast typist, commands the English language like no other, is an expert of all laws of the king’s land, he is a sharp shooter (he is also a gunsmithlike expert) and a land "king size" owner. You are doomed my friend! Scotty will beam your tired sorry paddling ass up! PS: I really felt sorry for the incident and for the two idiots that went after Mr. Weiser’s mother but this is to much! Fred Fred Mechini Visit my homepage  http://pluto.njcc.com/~fmec/Welcome.html A WEB PAGE DEDICATED TO OLYMPIC SPRINT KAYAK

Response:

You know, I agree with just about everything Scott said in this post. Nobody forces you to read every article on the newsgroup.  Just skip over the threads you don’t like.  I know we’ve gone over this subject a zillion times, but apparently we keep getting new people in the group who are not aware of the differences in access laws from place to place.  Some of these people want argue with Scott, but it really won’t do them any good–they can’t change the laws of the state of Colorado. They do, however, learn from the exchanges.  And for every person who posts in the thread, there are at least ten who are reading it and learning from it.  If paddlers improve their behaviour wrt access, then maybe some irate landowners who have the power to block access to put-ins or even to the entire river may decide that paddlers aren’t so bad.  If these threads improve our collective behaviour enough that the closure of just one river is avoided, then it will be worthwhile. I do take issue with one of Scott’s statements, though. Remember, I only post in reply to a query or discussion from someone else who, axiomatically, *is* interested in the subject.

Scott, you were the first poster on this subject.  So one out of the dozens of your posts was NOT a repy.  (OK, I may be picking at straws there, but read on.)  Also, just the other day, you replied to a post that was completely unrelated (i.e. had nothing to do with access), and did so in a manner that seemed (to me) aimed at starting another big thread.  Hence, you do not ONLY post to reply to questions about access, although I would agree that the vast majority of your posts are valid replies.  If you had said that you "usually" or "generally only reply… then I would have no argument with your statement. -Paul

Response:

I apologize in advance, but there really is no diplomatic way to state this… ENOUGH WITH THE DAMN ACCESS DEBATE THREADS! I am a kayaker.  I view and post to this newsgroup in order to keep abreast of new happenings in the sport I love. When I see three postings (or threads) involving a river access issue, I think "Good debate, there have been some valid issues presented here".  When I see thirty posts, mostly by one individual, I think "These (expletive’in) people have nothing better to do with their time." Please, If you are absolutely hot-and-bothered to the point that you are treating this news group like your own personal chat-room, I understand…But keep it private, e-mail is really an ideal medium for this type of thing. Don’t clog this otherwise interesting group with twenty different post that are essentially the same in content. For the record, Yes, I do now know that Scott Weiser(sp?) is very familiar with private domain laws in Colorado and he would prefer that kayakers show a little more respect towards his family’s legal wishes.  I also know that there are a lot of disrespectful boaters out there that believe once the water droplet leaves the cloud, it is there God-given right to use it at their convenience.  Well folks, these are things I learned in the first few posts. I can see both sides of the argument, but really do not give a flying (expletive)!  If you have any other opinions that you think I am interested in past that point, know that I am not.  If any of you involved in this thread think of any other gems that need to be discussed pertaining to this topic. Please, WRITE YOUR (EXPLETIVE’IN) CONGRESSMAN OR SHUT THE (EXPLETIVE) UP! By the way, if any of you would like to paddle this weekend, let me know Let me out of this concrete jungle, -Craig "no playboat yet" Geist

Response:

Question:

I’ve been off the stuff for about 3 days now..can’t really say I feel that bad…I actually feel BETTER….my body feel so much less sluggish and I want to DO stuff and I don’t feel uneven or unstable by any stretch of the imagination. I just feel good because this is actually turhing out to be an "up" week for me.  Maybe I don’t need the meds…  I dunno….things are on an upward curve for me at eh moment.  I feel great….great great great…..not upity, but just plain old great. i think.

dear spacegurl, i’ve done what you’ve done so many times…hell, i’m not on any mood stabilizers right now (shhh!) actually, i’m going to my doctor to trade my (rash-inducing…but that was just me…) tegretol for what i’m guessing will be neurontin, since i’ve tried most others. my summary of life without meds: short term, i felt fine. long term, i never have really gotten better. i haven’t had any unusual catastrophes, but i’ve just never been able to really "heal." my mood/neuro-issues still interfere with my life. it’s cyclical, so somtimes i think i’ll be fine without… in fact, i stayed off meds for seven years. but i am coming back to try again. i haven’t been able to produce much artwork (except for my website) or hold a job for long, i feel alternately sad and without energy or frightened/agitated, and my boyfriend and i are increasingly socially isolated due to my having a panic attack half of the times we try to go out. note: i also haven’t been able to stick to an exercise schedule of any kind when depressed! this seems pathetic to me, as i used to take ballet, race bikes, etc. so i am urging you to try different meds instead- and on your terms. my first time on lithium, i gained a ton of weight and consequently felt so betrayed by my doctors, who didn’t even warn me…and i’ve also tried depakote. neither worked for me anyway… I do’nt see how any meds that make you gain weight can make you happy.  At least not for me.

i really do agree. as i’ve said before (on this newsgroup,) every med i try is a gamble- it may help, it may not. whereas i *k*n*o*w* that the more weight i gain, the more depressed i’ll get. it’s just common sense to be unwilling to take a drug that makes me depressed via weight gain when i’m taking it to alleviate depression in the first place! call it vanity if you wish, but that’s my philosophy. I know, I need to change my views on this, but hey…I am doing what I need to do.

i know- believe me. but before you leave the mystical world of psychopharmacology, i really wanted to show you this: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ask the Expert – Mood Disorder Meds Weigh In Q. What mood disorder medications are most likely/least likely to cause weight gain? Information on both bipolar and unipolar drug therapy would be appreciated. A. The following is a basic summary of the effects of various mood medications, and their usual effect on weight: Key +++ weight gain very likely, often exceeding 8 lbs ++ weight gain sometimes seen, usually modest (5-6 lbs) + weight gain uncommon (less than 5% of patients) and usually less than 5 lbs. Antidepressants Fluoxetine (Prozac), Sertraline (Zoloft), Paroxetine (Paxil) + Bupropion (Wellbutrin) + Venlafaxine (Effexor) + Tricyclics Elavil, Tofranil, Doxepin and others +++ Mood stabilizers Lithium +++ (average weight gain=9 lbs) Valproate (Depakote) ++ Carbamazepine (Tegretol) + Note: Some elderly patients actually lose weight while taking Prozac. These figures are based on the literature, and my own experience. Patients vary greatly in their responses, however, and there are always patients who gain weight when they weren’t supposed to on a given agent.

i’m admittedly not sure where i got this.. it was a well-established website that i found easily by entering "weight" and "bipolar" into a search engine. spacegurl, i just want to let you know that not all drugs cause fattening. some even encourage loss (wellbutrin has been known to cause a loss of over 5 pounds in about 25% of the people who take it, for example. i wouldn’t really recommend  it as the most effective drug out there, but your results may differ.) i haven’t seen most of your posts leading up to this, but if you’re really quitting meds over the weight issue alone, you still have a range of options you could try (tegretol, neurontin…) love and luck, selene

Response:

Well,  I just thought I’d check in with you guyus and first of all thanks you all sooooooo much for your e-mails and responses on here.  they really did help me.  I know you guys think that I am drilling a hole in my foot doing what i"M doin, but I can’t think of any other way.  I’ve been off the stuff for about 3 days now..can’t really say I feel that bad…I actually feel BETTER….my body feel so much less sluggish and I want to DO stuff and I don’t feel uneven or unstable by any stretch of the imagination. I just feel good because this is actually turhing out to be an "up" week for me.  Maybe I don’t need the meds…  I dunno….things are on an upward curve for me at eh moment.  I feel great….great great great…..not upity, but just plain old great. i think. But the weight thing was just a pisser for me.  I do’nt see how any meds that make you gain weight can make you happy.  At least not for me.  I know, I need to change my views on this, but hey…I am doing what I need to do. I think it is great that people out there are able to get help w/ the medication.  I won’t ever go backk on the stuff….i won’t. never ever ever…yuck. So, just thought I"d let you all know I am doing excellent w/ out the meds! — For more information about this service, send e-mail to:

Response:

Question:

WebfootVA schreef: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – BTW, though you said you take it at night.  Do you eat dinner late or do you take it with a snack?  If I started to eat my dinner at 9pm I would not only have bad indigestion, I’d probably weigh about 10 pounds more than I do now! Hi Iris, I do both.  I used to eat late dinners when I worked until 9pm so I could eat with my husband in the past.  For me, this was never a big deal.  I either eat a very light dinner at 5pm with my kids and a big snack later on, or I just have a late dinner, but I always eat before the meds. I also work out 5-6 times a week in the mornings at the gym as I’ve tended to gain weight with any of the meds in the past and I didn’t want to go that route again.  It also helps a lot with the everyday stress and gives me exposure to the rapid heart rate….rapid breathing symptoms, which I’m hoping will eventually help me prevent relapse once this goes into remission again. take care, Lene Well, I’ll probably have to take it in the morning then, or at least with my dinner around 7pm.  If I eat much later, I feel queasy when I go to bed. I need to start working out again.  I don’t have a weight problem but I am noticing a growing flab problem!  Exercise was my salvation when I had PA’s 10 years ago, but now I’ve developed a bit of a phobia–also, I suspect tied to the rapid heart rate, sweating, etc. BTW, the doc wants me to start out on 25 mg for a week then increase to 50mg where I’ll stay if the drug is successful.  Is 25 mg a low enough dose to start? Should I ask him for a lower dose?  I only weigh about 112, although I have a friend who doesn’t even tip the scales at 100 lbs and she started at 50 mg with no problem. Ever more questions. Iris —

  Iris, I feel your doctor knows about your fear of meds (which I recognize completely) and therefore starts your medication on a very low dose indeed. You should have no problems taking this at any time of the day. And: the proof of the pudding is in the eating. Try it and do it asap because you’ve been torturing yourself for too long now. Just do it! You’ll survive. Just as I did, so many times now (and still fraking out over every new med but having learnt to take it. If I can do it, you certainly can! I wish you knew me better to discover how true this is… Philip Peters

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – WebfootVA schreef: BTW, though you said you take it at night.  Do you eat dinner late or do you take it with a snack?  If I started to eat my dinner at 9pm I would not only have bad indigestion, I’d probably weigh about 10 pounds more than I do now! Hi Iris, I do both.  I used to eat late dinners when I worked until 9pm so I could eat with my husband in the past.  For me, this was never a big deal.  I either eat a very light dinner at 5pm with my kids and a big snack later on, or I just have a late dinner, but I always eat before the meds. I also work out 5-6 times a week in the mornings at the gym as I’ve tended to gain weight with any of the meds in the past and I didn’t want to go that route again.  It also helps a lot with the everyday stress and gives me exposure to the rapid heart rate….rapid breathing symptoms, which I’m hoping will eventually help me prevent relapse once this goes into remission again. take care, Lene Well, I’ll probably have to take it in the morning then, or at least with my dinner around 7pm.  If I eat much later, I feel queasy when I go to bed. I need to start working out again.  I don’t have a weight problem but I am noticing a growing flab problem!  Exercise was my salvation when I had PA’s 10 years ago, but now I’ve developed a bit of a phobia–also, I suspect tied to the rapid heart rate, sweating, etc. BTW, the doc wants me to start out on 25 mg for a week then increase to 50mg where I’ll stay if the drug is successful.  Is 25 mg a low enough dose to start? Should I ask him for a lower dose?  I only weigh about 112, although I have a friend who doesn’t even tip the scales at 100 lbs and she started at 50 mg with no problem. Ever more questions. Iris —   Iris, I feel your doctor knows about your fear of meds (which I recognize completely) and therefore starts your medication on a very low dose indeed. You should have no problems taking this at any time of the day. And: the proof of the pudding is in the eating. Try it and do it asap because you’ve been torturing yourself for too long now. Just do it! You’ll survive. Just as I did, so many times now (and still fraking out over every new med but having learnt to take it. If I can do it, you certainly can! I wish you knew me better to discover how true this is… Philip Peters

Philip: What a nice reply!  I’m going to print it out and tape it to the mirror, ’cause I’ve decided I’m going to start tonight! Iris (hoping to be successful…) —

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – BTW, though you said you take it at night.  Do you eat dinner late or do you take it with a snack?  If I started to eat my dinner at 9pm I would not only have bad indigestion, I’d probably weigh about 10 pounds more than I do now! Hi Iris, I do both.  I used to eat late dinners when I worked until 9pm so I could eat with my husband in the past.  For me, this was never a big deal.  I either eat a very light dinner at 5pm with my kids and a big snack later on, or I just have a late dinner, but I always eat before the meds. I also work out 5-6 times a week in the mornings at the gym as I’ve tended to gain weight with any of the meds in the past and I didn’t want to go that route again.  It also helps a lot with the everyday stress and gives me exposure to the rapid heart rate….rapid breathing symptoms, which I’m hoping will eventually help me prevent relapse once this goes into remission again. take care, Lene

Well, I’ll probably have to take it in the morning then, or at least with my dinner around 7pm.  If I eat much later, I feel queasy when I go to bed. I need to start working out again.  I don’t have a weight problem but I am noticing a growing flab problem!  Exercise was my salvation when I had PA’s 10 years ago, but now I’ve developed a bit of a phobia–also, I suspect tied to the rapid heart rate, sweating, etc. BTW, the doc wants me to start out on 25 mg for a week then increase to 50mg where I’ll stay if the drug is successful.  Is 25 mg a low enough dose to start? Should I ask him for a lower dose?  I only weigh about 112, although I have a friend who doesn’t even tip the scales at 100 lbs and she started at 50 mg with no problem. Ever more questions. Iris —

Response:

BTW, though you said you take it at night.  Do you eat dinner late or do you take it with a snack?  If I started to eat my dinner at 9pm I would not only have bad indigestion, I’d probably weigh about 10 pounds more than I do now! Hi Iris,

I do both.  I used to eat late dinners when I worked until 9pm so I could eat with my husband in the past.  For me, this was never a big deal.  I either eat a very light dinner at 5pm with my kids and a big snack later on, or I just have a late dinner, but I always eat before the meds. I also work out 5-6 times a week in the mornings at the gym as I’ve tended to gain weight with any of the meds in the past and I didn’t want to go that route again.  It also helps a lot with the everyday stress and gives me exposure to the rapid heart rate….rapid breathing symptoms, which I’m hoping will eventually help me prevent relapse once this goes into remission again. take care, Lene – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

Okay, after taking Zoloft for the first time last night, I felt so wired up today. How long are the side effects going to take? Why do some people have more side effects at first than others? PS make sure you eat with it.  I noticed a BIG difference in severity of side effects depending on whether I had a full stomache or not.

Good advice Lene.  I’m still working on starting my Zoloft (sigh…) and the reason I was leaning toward taking it at breakfast was to lessen the side effect possibility.  I’ve had this reaction with several other drugs. If I take them with food (if it’s an option), I always tolerate them better.  I’m not a scientist, but I think food slows the absorbtion rate, so your body can better adjust. BTW, though you said you take it at night.  Do you eat dinner late or do you take it with a snack?  If I started to eat my dinner at 9pm I would not only have bad indigestion, I’d probably weigh about 10 pounds more than I do now! Iris —

Response:

Okay, after taking Zoloft for the first time last night, I felt so wired up today. How long are the side effects going to take?

<snipped for space I’m not a doctor but I do believe that, while there is a possibility that you are experiencing a reaction to Zoloft, it’s an infinitessimal one. Most likely you have hyped yourself up over it with anticipation. ISTM a little too early for any reaction at all, good or bad… Sad to say, we anxiety types do this all too easily — Gary Cooper

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Okay, after taking Zoloft for the first time last night, I felt so wired up today. How long are the side effects going to take? Why do some people have more side effects at first than others?

Side effects with zoloft at first are extremely common.  I’ve been on it for 10 weeks, My side effects lasted about four weeks.  However, my husband who is also on zoloft for chronic pain management had few side effects and none of the ones that I did.    I found that I had to work a bit with the time I took it, to manage the side effects better at first. Some people are just more sensitive to meds.  Myself included.  I usually have side effects to everything.  Try and keep in mind that that the side effects are a temporary situation and well worth getting through in order to give it a chance and see if this is the answer for you. PS make sure you eat with it.  I noticed a BIG difference in severity of side effects depending on whether I had a full stomache or not. take care Lene – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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Okay, after taking Zoloft for the first time last night, I felt so wired up today. How long are the side effects going to take? Why do some people have more side effects at first than others? Is it kind of a Riddlin effect.  Kids who take it and don’t need it tend to react to it differently and get hyped up.  and whereas kids who need the medication the most feel the effect immediately.    mmm.  in that case  is it true that if you’re feeling overanxious when initially using Zoloft   that you’re closer to healthy than you are sick?    just a hopeful thought

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Question:

What’s the difference?  Is there anyone with experience with both?

Response:

What’s the difference?  Is there anyone with experience with both?

Big difference!  Prozac started it all and many other (paxil, zoloft, effexor, luvox) followed.  The basis is the same, but for more info I would suggest doing a search on any one in particular or investing in a drug book for lay people or checking out a PDR.  There are many here that have been on both, perhaps if you specify what it is you wantr to know…. Gwen

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What’s the difference?  Is there anyone with experience with both?

  Years ago my pDoc was reluctant to put me on Prozac.  I was already on Imipramine with Ativan for GAD and Prozac was known to cause anxiety.  However since depression was also a major problem for me, he finally put me on Prozac.  Worked great for me for a couple of years.  It did make me more anxious, but greatly helped my depression and panic.  Eventually I switched to Paxil because the anxiety got to be too much.  Paxil did have less of an anxiety effect on me and also helped panic and depression.  Paxil has a shorter half-life and this can make withdrawl from it more difficult (it did for me).    A search of this NG (and alt.support.depression) should provide all sorts of experiences with both. Depends on your needs as to which is best and of course YMMV.    Of course the Web has lots of info too, like these: http://www.gold.net/users/ad88/sideedi.htm http://www.MedsiteNavigator.com/drugs/drugs.html    (Prozac=Fluoxetine,Paxil=Paroxetine) Cheers, Bill

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:       What is a therapeutic dose of PAXIL. That depends on you and your doctor.  SmithKline makes 10 mg (new), 20 mg, and 30 mg tablets I believe. Some of

these have scores in the middle, some don’t.  I believe the 20 mg does. One possible advantage of Paxil is faster onset of action.  Prozac usually takes weeks, Paxil is faster.  It took me about 20 minutes.  I take 20 mg.  Initial side-effects that wore off: jitters, uneven feelings.   Prolonged side-effects: inability to sleep without klonopin or Excedrin PM, libido decreasing from little to almost zilch.  Frankly, I like that, as I am going through a divorce.  My wife doesn’t want me, and I don’t want anyone else.  I would take it for that reason alone.  It makes building a network of friends easier (no ulterior motives!).  I had previously had some panic/anxiety symptoms and have had none since I started, although I do have times when I am down.

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<much really good stuff snipped In my opinion (panic disorder for 27 years), what is important is for each of us to have a doctor who understands that each of us is fighting a problem that has a biological core and many psychological side effects.  

I think you’ve really encapsulated it well there, Tom. It seems to me that the worst doctor one can have is the type who has *one* cure which s/he applies universally and if it doesn’t work, the patient is at fault. The testimonies on ASAP alone bear witness to just how many different solutions there are. — Gary Cooper

Response:

My doctor is moving me from prozac to paxil; she is under the impression that paxil has an advantage over prozac in handling anxiety. I am not good at search the literature; can anyone confirm or deny my doctor’s impression (for one thing, I dread the change-over period). Kristin —                     Kristin Rachael Hayward                 http://130.111.120.13/~hayward

Hello All!! Happy Holidays! My personal experience has been that Paxil is much more effective against panic disorder than Prozac.  I also know many others who have benefitted from Prozac re panic attacks. I tried Prozac for a short while, and it actually <<induced panic attacks, even though I started out with a gradual, upward tapering dosage.  I have friends who felt very shaky and energized while starting Paxil, but I never experiened that set of side effects either. I think the lesson to be learned is that each of us has his/her own biochemistry and (to quote Dr. George Sheehan) "each of us is an experiment of one".  We all respond differently and need to be treated as such.  For me, Paxil has been an excellent anti-panic med and Prozac was a dismal failure.  For the next person, however, the reverse could be true.  I believe that the SSRI’s and the benzos (and the tricyclics-imipramine, etc) all have a place in treating panic disorder. In my opinion (panic disorder for 27 years), what is important is for each of us to have a doctor who understands that each of us is fighting a problem that has a biological core and many psychological side effects.   I wish all of you the best in 1997 Regards, Tom — *****TRG Technologies*****                                       Tom Getts-Principal Consultant                             Web Pages                      Database Services (specialty: Oracle) General Internet Consulting    Scientific Consulting http://www.trg-tech.com                                                                    

Response:

:       What is a therapeutic dose of PAXIL. I believe the standard therapeutic dosage for Paxil is 40mg, but you may end up on a higher or lower dosage depending on what is effective with tollerable side effects. I’m pretty comfortable at 30mg right now and may not have to move up to 40mg.                                         Best Wishes,                                         Arthur

Arthur Thanks I had a feeling 10 and 20 were low Did you get any REAL benefit at 10 or 20 (rather what did you feel happening ????) ie… No regular anxiety or just no PA ???? thanks …. John

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : : Arthur : : Thanks I had a feeling 10 and 20 were low : : Did you get any REAL benefit at 10 or 20 (rather what did you feel : happening ????) ie… No regular anxiety or just no PA ???? Well, I still have some anxiety problems at 30mg, but the PAs have stopped (I’m still celebrating that one!!!). Basically, I experienced increasing relief from the biologically caused anxiety as my dosage increased, but you can’t just get rid of all your anxiety with increased dosage. It’s natural to have some residue of psychological anxiety after experiencing severe anxiety or panic attacks, and this is best adressed with some form of psychotherapy. And let’s not forget, some degree of anxiety is simply part of a healthy mental state. The medications are a very important tool, but some of the work we just have to do ourselves.                                         Best Wishes,                                         Arthur

Thanks         I’ll keep in touch and let you now how its going John

Response:

[snip Anyone have the address to Noodle's page?  I can never remember it. But, it has a lot of info about anxiety there! Good luck! JLS --

[snip] The URL is http://www.algy.com/anxiety/anxiety.html Best wishes, Hirsch address in header has been changed to avoid junk mail

Response:

: : Arthur : : Thanks I had a feeling 10 and 20 were low : : Did you get any REAL benefit at 10 or 20 (rather what did you feel : happening ????) ie… No regular anxiety or just no PA ???? Well, I still have some anxiety problems at 30mg, but the PAs have stopped (I’m still celebrating that one!!!). Basically, I experienced increasing relief from the biologically caused anxiety as my dosage increased, but you can’t just get rid of all your anxiety with increased dosage. It’s natural to have some residue of psychological anxiety after experiencing severe anxiety or panic attacks, and this is best adressed with some form of psychotherapy. And let’s not forget, some degree of anxiety is simply part of a healthy mental state. The medications are a very important tool, but some of the work we just have to do ourselves.                                         Best Wishes,                                         Arthur

Response:

:       What is a therapeutic dose of PAXIL. I believe the standard therapeutic dosage for Paxil is 40mg, but you may end up on a higher or lower dosage depending on what is effective with tollerable side effects. I’m pretty comfortable at 30mg right now and may not have to move up to 40mg.                                         Best Wishes,                                         Arthur

Response:

My doctor is moving me from prozac to paxil; she is under the impression that paxil has an advantage over prozac in handling anxiety. I am not good at search the literature; can anyone confirm or deny my doctor’s impression (for one thing, I dread the change-over period). Kristin —                     Kristin Rachael Hayward                 http://130.111.120.13/~hayward

Kristin, I am on Paxil for anxiety, because I get really wound up, and the Dr. said it would take the edge off and calm me down.  My SO, who is bi-polar, is on Prozac, because he needs to be boosted up (He could sleep for days).  I feel better on Paxil, but it was the first med I have been on in years.  YOu can check the Anxiety Web Page to get more info. Anyone have the address to Noodle’s page?  I can never remember it. But, it has a lot of info about anxiety there! Good luck! JLS — "I’ve been searching for the Daughter of the Devil Himself, I’ve been searching for an Angel in White, I’ve been looking for a woman who’s a little of both, and I can feel her, but she’s no where in sight…"       Funny, I thought I heard someone was calling my name… http://www.winternet.com/~zodiac

Response:

: My doctor is moving me from prozac to paxil; she is under the impression that : paxil has an advantage over prozac in handling anxiety. : : I am not good at search the literature; can anyone confirm or deny : my doctor’s impression (for one thing, I dread the change-over period). Hi Kristin, I think the most important question here is whether or not the prozac has significantly helped you? If you seem to be doing well on the prozac, then I don’t see much reason to change. However, if the prozac isn’t helping enough or if the prozac has unreliable affects, then paxil is certainly worth a try. I take paxil, but a close friend of mine takes prozac for anxiety. As long as the prozac works well for him, I wouldn’t encourage him to change. As far as I know, the only reason to prefer paxil over prozac is that, in general, people respond more reliably to paxil. Prozac may be harder to predict, but when it works for someone it seems to work as well as paxil.                                         Best Wishes,                                         Arthur

Response:

My doctor is moving me from prozac to paxil; she is under the impression that paxil has an advantage over prozac in handling anxiety. I am not good at search the literature; can anyone confirm or deny my doctor’s impression (for one thing, I dread the change-over period). Kristin —                    Kristin Rachael Hayward                http://130.111.120.13/~hayward

Technically, Paxil has been approved by the FDA for anxiety treatment, while Prozac has not. Practically, both are used, and the responses to meds vary greatly from person to person.  The question you need to ask about the Prozac is:  Is it working??  If the Prozac has relieved your anxiety, why change??  OTOH, if you are still having problems with anxiety even after giving Prozac a chance to work, then Paxil is a reasonable alternative.  There is no one right med for anxiety, and finding the one that works best for you often involves trial and error. Please bear in mind that any of the SRI meds  (which include Prozac and PAxil) will take several weeks before they will have any effect on anxiety.  Also, it is worth noting that one of the possible side effects of these meds is an _increase_  in anxiety in the early stages.  You can get around this, if it’s a problem, by starting at a very low dose, and then working up to the therapeutic dose.  Also, a short-term prescription for a benzodiazepine can also help reduce anxiety in starting an SRI. Hope this helps, Hirsch address in header has been changed to avoid junk mail

Response:

Please bear in mind that any of the SRI meds  (which include Prozac and PAxil) will take several weeks before they will have any effect on anxiety.  Also, it is worth noting that one of the possible side effects of these meds is an _increase_  in anxiety in the early stages.  You can get around this, if it’s a problem, by starting at a very low dose, and then working up to the therapeutic dose.  Also, a short-term prescription for a benzodiazepine can also help reduce anxiety in starting an SRI. Hope this helps, Hirsch address in header has been changed to avoid junk mail

PMJI,         What is a therapeutic dose of PAXIL.  I had a major PA ( had to get out of the car and calm down ) on a trip to new York one Sunday a month and a half ago and after that incident the next week was hell even had problems driving alone, then went to see a Psychiatrist he prescribed the PAXIL. after that could drive alone a little better.  I started at 10mg for a month and felt a only slightly better. On Sunday I moved up to 20mgs and then On Christmas eve I had to drive the family and our au-pare 45 mins away and although I had pins and needles in my hands and mild anxiesty i finished the trip up with no major problems,  once there no problemns and on the way home only  slight anxiety. ( better I think???) now I am wondering what to expect and what is the dose….. Thanks John A quiet sufferer for 15 years……

Response:

My doctor is moving me from prozac to paxil; she is under the impression that paxil has an advantage over prozac in handling anxiety. I am not good at search the literature; can anyone confirm or deny my doctor’s impression (for one thing, I dread the change-over period). Kristin —                     Kristin Rachael Hayward                 http://130.111.120.13/~hayward

Response:

My doctor is moving me from prozac to paxil; she is under the impression that paxil has an advantage over prozac in handling anxiety. I am not good at search the literature; can anyone confirm or deny my doctor’s impression (for one thing, I dread the change-over period).

If I recall, Paxil has US approval for anxiety problems – but I’m not sure whether that means it’s any better as such. As I understand it, it just means the manufacturer has bothered to get it approved for that purpose. Anecdotally, I have heard it claimed that it is better for this use than Prozac, but I’m not aware of any studies that prove that. If Prozac hasn’t been ‘doing the trick’, it’s a popular alternative though. Good luck with it! — Gary Cooper

Response:

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi All, Yikes!!!  Yesterday I was ‘locked out’ of newsgroup because of some stuff Worldnet was doing with the Usenet so I am very far behind. I spoke with a woman in Idaho yesterday who wants to write a grant to Albertson’s (a food chain).  Apparently they fund stuff for kids with illnesses.  I was thinking that there must be some kids with generalized who need equipment of some type (ie computers, wheelchairs, etc). Christine needs numbers of kids affected by ITD, numbers from a quotable source.  Also some specifics on what kids might need.  Christine is an adult with torticollis so her knowledge is limited regarding ITD.  I told her I would try to get back to her on Thursday Oct 3rd…thinking I could post yesterday. Anyhow, your expertise would be much appreciated!! Thanks, MBValerie Kinch has a questionnaire on the WWW page and Bob Campbell might be able to help in getting some numbers put together. There is nothing in the literature that gives a number. The only possibility is maybe extrapolating ITD by contacting Chicago getting a percentage and applying it to 300,000 people. I would also contact Mike [of Jeff Harris who has disappeared, why?] and asking for input. Also get your hands on 8 to 18.

Hi Larry, I have 8-18.  I will contact Michael (don’t know what happened to him!). Christine already spoke to Chicago, however she was so vague with them that I am sure that is why they couldn’t help her.  I had to be pretty pushy on the phone just to center her on one topic and I find it hard to be pushy (believe it or not).  TY for the input! MB

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi All, Yikes!!!  Yesterday I was ‘locked out’ of newsgroup because of some stuff Worldnet was doing with the Usenet so I am very far behind. I spoke with a woman in Idaho yesterday who wants to write a grant to Albertson’s (a food chain).  Apparently they fund stuff for kids with illnesses.  I was thinking that there must be some kids with generalized who need equipment of some type (ie computers, wheelchairs, etc). Christine needs numbers of kids affected by ITD, numbers from a quotable source.  Also some specifics on what kids might need.  Christine is an adult with torticollis so her knowledge is limited regarding ITD.  I told her I would try to get back to her on Thursday Oct 3rd…thinking I could post yesterday. Anyhow, your expertise would be much appreciated!! Thanks, MBValerie Kinch has a questionnaire on the WWW page and Bob Campbell might

be able to help in getting some numbers put together. There is nothing in the literature that gives a number. The only possibility is maybe extrapolating ITD by contacting Chicago getting a percentage and applying it to 300,000 people. I would also contact Mike [of Jeff Harris who has disappeared, why?] and asking for input. Also get your hands on 8 to 18.

Response:

Hi All, Yikes!!!  Yesterday I was ‘locked out’ of newsgroup because of some stuff Worldnet was doing with the Usenet so I am very far behind. I spoke with a woman in Idaho yesterday who wants to write a grant to Albertson’s (a food chain).  Apparently they fund stuff for kids with illnesses.  I was thinking that there must be some kids with generalized who need equipment of some type (ie computers, wheelchairs, etc).   Christine needs numbers of kids affected by ITD, numbers from a quotable source.  Also some specifics on what kids might need.  Christine is an adult with torticollis so her knowledge is limited regarding ITD.  I told her I would try to get back to her on Thursday Oct 3rd…thinking I could post yesterday. Anyhow, your expertise would be much appreciated!! Thanks, MB

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi All, Yikes!!!  Yesterday I was ‘locked out’ of newsgroup because of some stuff Worldnet was doing with the Usenet so I am very far behind. I spoke with a woman in Idaho yesterday who wants to write a grant to Albertson’s (a food chain).  Apparently they fund stuff for kids with illnesses.  I was thinking that there must be some kids with generalized who need equipment of some type (ie computers, wheelchairs, etc). Christine needs numbers of kids affected by ITD, numbers from a quotable source.  Also some specifics on what kids might need.  Christine is an adult with torticollis so her knowledge is limited regarding ITD.  I told her I would try to get back to her on Thursday Oct 3rd…thinking I could post yesterday. Anyhow, your expertise would be much appreciated!! Thanks, MBValerie Kinch has a questionnaire on the WWW page and Bob Campbell might be able to help in getting some numbers put together. There is nothing in the literature that gives a number. The only possibility is maybe extrapolating ITD by contacting Chicago getting a percentage and applying it to 300,000 people. I would also contact Mike [of Jeff Harris who has disappeared, why?] and asking for input. Also get your hands on 8 to 18.

I’m here, Larry – just been busy so my posts have been few and far between.  Michael has not been "on line" for a while, but it you have anything for him send it to me and I’ll pass it along.  (BTW, MEDICALLY he’s been doing VERY well.  Today was a "spasmy" day, but on Rosh Hashana he STOOD on the Bima and helped lead the prayers in Junior Congregation!  (His Bar Mitzvah is a year away). As far as statistics, neither he nor I would have anything.  The best person I can think of for extrapolating numbers might be Debbie DeLeon.  I’m sure in doing the genetic models she must have percentages.  The other person who might have something would be Ron Cabay, the Childrens Advocacy leader. Jeff H.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi All, Yikes!!!  Yesterday I was ‘locked out’ of newsgroup because of some stuff Worldnet was doing with the Usenet so I am very far behind. I spoke with a woman in Idaho yesterday who wants to write a grant to Albertson’s (a food chain).  Apparently they fund stuff for kids with illnesses.  I was thinking that there must be some kids with generalized who need equipment of some type (ie computers, wheelchairs, etc). Christine needs numbers of kids affected by ITD, numbers from a quotable source.  Also some specifics on what kids might need.  Christine is an adult with torticollis so her knowledge is limited regarding ITD.  I told her I would try to get back to her on Thursday Oct 3rd…thinking I could post yesterday. Anyhow, your expertise would be much appreciated!! Thanks, MBValerie Kinch has a questionnaire on the WWW page and Bob Campbell might be able to help in getting some numbers put together. There is nothing in the literature that gives a number. The only possibility is maybe extrapolating ITD by contacting Chicago getting a percentage and applying it to 300,000 people. I would also contact Mike [of Jeff Harris who has disappeared, why?] and asking for input. Also get your hands on 8 to 18. Hi Larry, I have 8-18.  I will contact Michael (don’t know what happened to him!). Christine already spoke to Chicago, however she was so vague with them that I am sure that is why they couldn’t help her.  I had to be pretty pushy on the phone just to center her on one topic and I find it hard to be pushy (believe it or not).  TY for the input! MB

How about writing the NIH? Nationa Institute of Neuro Disorders and Stroke Building 10,  Room 5N226 10 CENTER DR. MISC 1428 BETHESDA MD 20892-1428 Phone (301)496-1561  (before 8 AM in CA it’s cheap and good time to get them back East.

Response:

It is a horrible feeling of extreme isolation when looked out of this news group.  I understand how you felt.   I’m so glad your fund-raising dinner went well.  Good Job!  And to top it off, you were able to spend som quality time with Jennifer.   Now, to your needed suggestions.  Somewhere in the archieves for this newsgroup, I remember reading about one of the children with ITD needing voice activated software, like Dragon Dictate.  It is a wonderful program for someone who has limited mobility using their arms, hands, and shoulder area.  I have the program, because for a while I could barely use my right arm and hand.  It is very easy for a non-computer literate person to learn to use. (More complicated for us old-timers who are stuck in our ways.) It runs with most windows based programs, so a child would have access to programs for doing their homework as well as playing a few games.  It runs about $500 to $600 for a start-up set of disks, which has a smaller dictionary.  The dictionary would be adequate for most grade school and high school students.  The program can be added to, if the child decided to attend college and needed a larger vocabulary.  I believe there is only the PC version available, but checking with Dragon Dictate would clarify whether or not there is a Mac version.  I believe it is useable on laptops with enough memory installed, so a child could use it both at school and home.  Information can be obtained from Dragon Systems, Inc., 320 Nevada Street, Newton, MA 02160, Tel (617) 965-5200, Fax (617) 527-0372. Hope this helps. Sherrie

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It is a horrible feeling of extreme isolation when looked out of this news group.  I understand how you felt.   I’m so glad your fund-raising dinner went well.  Good Job!  And to top it off, you were able to spend som quality time with Jennifer.   Now, to your needed suggestions.  Somewhere in the archieves for this newsgroup, I remember reading about one of the children with ITD needing voice activated software, like Dragon Dictate.  It is a wonderful program for someone who has limited mobility using their arms, hands, and shoulder area.  I have the program, because for a while I could barely use my right arm and hand.  It is very easy for a non-computer literate person to learn to use. (More complicated for us old-timers who are stuck in our ways.) It runs with most windows based programs, so a child would have access to programs for doing their homework as well as playing a few games.  It runs about $500 to $600 for a start-up set of disks, which has a smaller dictionary.  The dictionary would be adequate for most grade school and high school students.  The program can be added to, if the child decided to attend college and needed a larger vocabulary.  I believe there is only the PC version available, but checking with Dragon Dictate would clarify whether or not there is a Mac version.  I believe it is useable on laptops with enough memory installed, so a child could use it both at school and home.  Information can be obtained from Dragon Systems, Inc., 320 Nevada Street, Newton, MA 02160, Tel (617) 965-5200, Fax (617) 527-0372. Hope this helps. Sherrie

Thanks so much, Sherrie!!  I am supposed to phone Chris today and I will most definitely give her this info.  I also remember that topic, now that you have jogged my memory…it gets harder and harder, the older one becomes <<VBG I really enjoyed the time with Jennifer…she is such a doll.  I refuse to use the word ’success’ yet in describing the event.  Perhaps in time and with some perspective, my attitude will change.  Right now I desparately need a ‘holiday from dystonia’. Take care, sweetheart! MB

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Hi! This is an informal survey of who among us Dystonia sufferers are still driving and who were forced to surrender their driver’s license. Please answer the following questions  truthfully: 1) Do you still drive despite your dystonia?   Yes            No 2) What type of dystonia do you have? 3) Did anyone of you lose your driver’s license because of your illness, dystonia? 4) To those who lost their license, were you able to get one again? I am making this informal survey because I am about to lose my license simply because my primary physician or any physician I know does not want to vouch for me that I am "medically and physically able to drive a motor vehicle safely? I don’t know what I will do without a driver’s license. I am very depressed.

Hi, Ador.  I’m a parent – not a patient – and Michael is only 12, so my answer to your survey wouldn’t be meaningful; but a couple of suggestions: Plan A – Ways you might keep your license: 1) Contact the Independent Living Center in your area.  There are driving programs/drivers ed programs especially designed for people with disabilities ("PWD") , and also specialized equipment that enables many PWD to operate a vehicle safely.  This training might convince your doctor; OR maybe they know a doctor who is more sensitive on the issues. 2) Discuss this with your Movement Disorder neurologist – NOT your primary care physician.   3) Contact some of the dealers of Adapted Vehicles and Equipment for suggestions. Keep in touch!  Maybe we can come up with other ideas LOL– Jeff H.

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Hi! This is an informal survey of who among us Dystonia sufferers are still driving and who were forced to surrender their driver’s license. Please answer the following questions  truthfully: 1) Do you still drive despite your dystonia?   Yes            No 2) What type of dystonia do you have? 3) Did anyone of you lose your driver’s license because of your illness, dystonia? 4) To those who lost their license, were you able to get one again? I am making this informal survey because I am about to lose my license simply because my primary physician or any physician I know does not want to vouch for me that I am "medically and physically able to drive a motor vehicle safely? I don’t know what I will do without a driver’s license. I am very depressed.

Ador, I am hearing your ‘fear’ of becoming dependent, rather than remaining independent.  I am concerned.  I have generalized dystonia and must use a walker to get around, but I have driven for years with no questions from doctors or our CA Motor Vehicle Dept.  You have lingual dystonia, isn’t that right?  Does it impair your ability to drive?  I cannot quite visualize that…please help us understand so that we can help, OK?  We are HERE for you, Ador!  Please talk with us, OK? Love, MB

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Hi! This is an informal survey of who among us Dystonia sufferers are still driving and who were forced to surrender their driver’s license. Please answer the following questions  truthfully: 1) Do you still drive despite your dystonia?   Yes            No 2) What type of dystonia do you have? 3) Did anyone of you lose your driver’s license because of your illness, dystonia? 4) To those who lost their license, were you able to get one again? I am making this informal survey because I am about to lose my license simply because my primary physician or any physician I know does not want to vouch for me that I am "medically and physically able to drive a motor vehicle safely? I don’t know what I will do without a driver’s license. I am very depressed.

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Hi! This is an informal survey of who among us Dystonia sufferers are still driving and who were forced to surrender their driver’s license. Please answer the following questions  truthfully: 1) Do you still drive despite your dystonia?   Yes            No 2) What type of dystonia do you have? 3) Did anyone of you lose your driver’s license because of your illness, dystonia? 4) To those who lost their license, were you able to get one again? I am making this informal survey because I am about to lose my license simply because my primary physician or any physician I know does not want to vouch for me that I am "medically and physically able to drive a motor vehicle safely? I don’t know what I will do without a driver’s license. I am very depressed.

(emailed as well as posted) Hi Ador: Yes, I still drive.  I have ST.  I also have panic disorder with severe depressive episodes and Essential Tremor.  So I shake like a leaf most of the time and my head nid-nods, panic attacks can be *hell* and sometimes I can slide into a big, black hole of depresssion.  And if someone even *hinted* that I should lose my license because of any or all of that, you would hear the explosion all the way from BC Canada!  ): That depression is probably our worst enemy, because it just takes away the energy to enjoy anything and turns everything grey.  But it’s part of our being affected with disabling disorders you know.  Everything I’ve read says that we have to be aware that this can strike at us, my specialist says the same thing. PLEASE take steps to get some treatment for your depression ASAP.  It makes all the difference, I promise you.  Ask your specialist or your MD to refer you to a specialist in mood disorders so that you can get the help you need.  I know it’s hellish, but it’s a *symptom* and not a true emotion of the real you.  You need to hang on to that Ador, the depression is a symptom and can be cured – the way it makes you feel is not really you at all. As far as the license goes, a primare care physician is not capable of making that kind of decision.  Only a specialist in dystonia can do so.  Fight off that depression, pick up the phone and call a lawyer (Legal Aide if necessary) if you have to.  But FIRST get the appointment arranged for help with the depression. THEN do battle with the bureaucrats if you have to, you’ll more than likely be helping someone else who is unable to take on that battle who has run into the same discrimination.  Put on that red suit with the big yellow S on it!  :)  And after you read this, go subscribe to alt.support.depression – some wonderful, *caring* people there. Hope that helps a little.  Give ‘em HELL Ador. Mally  :)  (Who hopes Ador will not be offended by Mally in a bossy mood…who gets that way when she’s worried about someone.)

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Hi Ador: I just had to stick my two cents in here.  I have two friends who come to mind when I read your posting.  One has CP, very bad spasms all the time, and this coupled with the fact that she’s now 73 years old.  The other was a Thalidamide (sp) baby, she’s now 46, has no arms nor legs. Both are still driving.  They didn’t have to get permission from their doctors or have them vouch for them.  This is in Texas so I don’t know about other states – but both took the driver’s test – both drive specially equiped vehicles – and drive under handicapped license plates. They had no problems as long as they could pass the exam. I know it is a major adjustment when we loose our ability to do things that we used to do – and I might add – took for granted – at least I certainly did.  And of course in the case of ones ability to get in their car and go when they want to would be hard to give up.  I understand that – I watched this happen with my father.  But Ador, he had to ask himself and be honest with himself on the answer of "Was he still able to drive safely".  Hard question for one to answer and be honest about it as it was (for him) letting go of his independence in having his own car, etc.  I’m not saying that you’re in this situation but it’s something to think about for all of us as we age, loose eyesight, whatever. Have you checked with your states requirements on this and if you were able to pass a drivers test would you have to get a doctors voucher? What about contacting your states organization for people with disabilities – I am sure they have one – I know this thought is depressing to you.  It would be to anyone – BUT – you can overcome this obsticle – do some research on it – Mally had a great point that a primary physician really doesn’t know the ins and outs of dystnia – mine only knows what I’ve told him – You’ve got a world of folks out here who you don’t even know Ador and we’re all pulling for you.  Hang in there and explore other avenues – you never know what your going to find around that corner. Good luck and big hugs from South Texas – Anne Here in San Antonio, we have wonderful bus services for people with disabilities.  It is a blessing for those who either can’t drive anymore or who never drove. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi! This is an informal survey of who among us Dystonia sufferers are still driving and who were forced to surrender their driver’s license. Please answer the following questions  truthfully: 1) Do you still drive despite your dystonia?   Yes            No 2) What type of dystonia do you have? 3) Did anyone of you lose your driver’s license because of your illness, dystonia? 4) To those who lost their license, were you able to get one again? I am making this informal survey because I am about to lose my license simply because my primary physician or any physician I know does not want to vouch for me that I am "medically and physically able to drive a motor vehicle safely? I don’t know what I will do without a driver’s license. I am very depressed. (emailed as well as posted) Hi Ador: Yes, I still drive.  I have ST.  I also have panic disorder with severe depressive episodes and Essential Tremor.  So I shake like a leaf most of the time and my head nid-nods, panic attacks can be *hell* and sometimes I can slide into a big, black hole of depresssion.  And if someone even *hinted* that I should lose my license because of any or all of that, you would hear the explosion all the way from BC Canada!  ): That depression is probably our worst enemy, because it just takes away the energy to enjoy anything and turns everything grey.  But it’s part of our being affected with disabling disorders you know.  Everything I’ve read says that we have to be aware that this can strike at us, my specialist says the same thing. PLEASE take steps to get some treatment for your depression ASAP.  It makes all the difference, I promise you.  Ask your specialist or your MD to refer you to a specialist in mood disorders so that you can get the help you need.  I know it’s hellish, but it’s a *symptom* and not a true emotion of the real you.  You need to hang on to that Ador, the depression is a symptom and can be cured – the way it makes you feel is not really you at all. As far as the license goes, a primare care physician is not capable of making that kind of decision.  Only a specialist in dystonia can do so.  Fight off that depression, pick up the phone and call a lawyer (Legal Aide if necessary) if you have to.  But FIRST get the appointment arranged for help with the depression. THEN do battle with the bureaucrats if you have to, you’ll more than likely be helping someone else who is unable to take on that battle who has run into the same discrimination.  Put on that red suit with the big yellow S on it!  :)  And after you read this, go subscribe to alt.support.depression – some wonderful, *caring* people there. Hope that helps a little.  Give ‘em HELL Ador. Mally  :)  (Who hopes Ador will not be offended by Mally in a bossy mood…who gets that way when she’s worried about someone.)

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi! This is an informal survey of who among us Dystonia sufferers are still driving and who were forced to surrender their driver’s license. Please answer the following questions  truthfully: 1) Do you still drive despite your dystonia?   Yes            No 2) What type of dystonia do you have? 3) Did anyone of you lose your driver’s license because of your illness, dystonia? 4) To those who lost their license, were you able to get one again? I am making this informal survey because I am about to lose my license simply because my primary physician or any physician I know does not want to vouch for me that I am "medically and physically able to drive a motor vehicle safely? I don’t know what I will do without a driver’s license. I am very depressed. (emailed as well as posted) Hi Ador: Yes, I still drive.  I have ST.  I also have panic disorder with severe depressive episodes and Essential Tremor.  So I shake like a leaf most of the time and my head nid-nods, panic attacks can be *hell* and sometimes I can slide into a big, black hole of depresssion.  And if someone even *hinted* that I should lose my license because of any or all of that, you would hear the explosion all the way from BC Canada!  ): That depression is probably our worst enemy, because it just takes away the energy to enjoy anything and turns everything grey.  But it’s part of our being affected with disabling disorders you know.  Everything I’ve read says that we have to be aware that this can strike at us, my specialist says the same thing. PLEASE take steps to get some treatment for your depression ASAP.  It makes all the difference, I promise you.  Ask your specialist or your MD to refer you to a specialist in mood disorders so that you can get the help you need.  I know it’s hellish, but it’s a *symptom* and not a true emotion of the real you.  You need to hang on to that Ador, the depression is a symptom and can be cured – the way it makes you feel is not really you at all. As far as the license goes, a primare care physician is not capable of making that kind of decision.  Only a specialist in dystonia can do so.  Fight off that depression, pick up the phone and call a lawyer (Legal Aide if necessary) if you have to.  But FIRST get the appointment arranged for help with the depression. THEN do battle with the bureaucrats if you have to, you’ll more than likely be helping someone else who is unable to take on that battle who has run into the same discrimination.  Put on that red suit with the big yellow S on it!  :)  And after you read this, go subscribe to alt.support.depression – some wonderful, *caring* people there. Hope that helps a little.  Give ‘em HELL Ador. Mally  :)  (Who hopes Ador will not be offended by Mally in a bossy mood…who gets that way when she’s worried about someone.)

Blessings Mally MB

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Hi! This is an informal survey of who among us Dystonia sufferers are still driving and who were forced to surrender their driver’s license. Please answer the following questions  truthfully: 1) Do you still drive despite your dystonia?   Yes            No 2) What type of dystonia do you have? 3) Did anyone of you lose your driver’s license because of your illness, dystonia? 4) To those who lost their license, were you able to get one again? I am making this informal survey because I am about to lose my license simply because my primary physician or any physician I know does not want to vouch for me that I am "medically and physically able to drive a motor vehicle safely? I don’t know what I will do without a driver’s license. I am very depressed.

Hi Ador. I suppose your GP is afraid of your leg dystonia.  I wouldn’t take his word. I have lingual dystonia but I also react with a wild general myoconic motions in all parts of m body when a certain sound is heard.  If first happened on an evoked potential test, then on MRI and sometimes it happens listening to music, altho on that if I can get to the raido soon enough no lasting harm done. Howeverer I insisted on showing my present Neuro what happens on the sound of the Evoked Potentials.  He knows other sounds d it too but he hasnever pulled my license. Suggest you go on your neuro’s decission. Catherine

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Hi! This is an informal survey of who among us Dystonia sufferers are still driving and who were forced to surrender their driver’s license. Please answer the following questions  truthfully: 1) Do you still drive despite your dystonia?   Yes            No 2) What type of dystonia do you have? 3) Did anyone of you lose your driver’s license because of your illness, dystonia? 4) To those who lost their license, were you able to get one again? I am making this informal survey because I am about to lose my license simply because my primary physician or any physician I know does not want to vouch for me that I am "medically and physically able to drive a motor vehicle safely? I don’t know what I will do without a driver’s license. I am very depressed.

Hi, The answer to question #1 isn’t applicable to me as I never had a driver’s lincense, and I’m 55 yrs old.  I did take driving lessons a couple of yrs ago — and I was doing quite well with the instructor I had, but unfortunately he quit his job just as I was gaining self-confidence…  I didn’t do anything to him for him to quit the job…  <g.  So, I never pursued my ‘dream’ for a driver’s lincense after this episode.  I could have gone to my state’s (Maryland) rehab center for driving lesons — I tried it once, but didn’t like the "snob" of instructor that was doing the teaching…  This brings to mind a question you — have u looked into your state’s rehab center — they could retrian you?  Why not write a letter to your congressman and see what he/she could do for you in issueing another driver’s license?  I know the feeling fof rejection.  You aren’t alone in this… The answer to question #2:  I have cerebral palsy  and generalized dystonia .  I can do anything I make up my mind to do.  If I want to do something — nothing stands in my way!  So, if you’re about to lose your license — why don’t ‘fight’ for it?  I have to fight for eveything I want — that’s the way the ball bounces.  I wished I didn’t have to fight for everything, but I do — to keep above board…  :-) Sorry, I can’t answer questions 3 & 4. There, I’ve said my 2 cents worth!  I *love* surveys!!… Cheerio, Becky

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Mally, bless you for the caring response to Ador about  her license and depression.  You said it all!! (I am on AOL and know how to "quote" when replying to e-mail but when in n/g it does not quote the same way; sorry) BTW, finally, met someone else with dystonia!!! Thru my dr., I have met another patient and had dinner with him and his wife Saturday.  What a joy for both of us. He is 62 with no computer and was fascinated by my telling him all I have found. You can be sure I will print some of these posts from a.s.d. to show him what a caring group can be found online. It really has helped my depression knowing every morning I can go to a.s.d. and "be" with others who truly know and understand. Love & Hugs,  Bonnie (hey, Texas is drying out!

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Dear MB, I think you are right. I have "fear" of becoming dependent rather than being indepen- dent which implies, among other things, the freedom to drive anywhere I please. I have generalized dystonia. I have dystonia of the foot but my neuro,a movement disorder specialist, says that my right leg is rigid only when I walk. Dystonia does not manifest itself or bother me when I am sitting or lying down so it does not affect my driving. I do use two canes when walking but that is to help me maintain my balance. I also have lingual dystonia which has caused me speech, chewing and swallowing difficulties—which do not affect my driving. The request for a medical examination report came about as a result of a minor vehicular accident wherein I caused a few scratches on the right rear side of the   other   vehicle involved. This was my first accident since I started driving here in the US in 1983 and since I was diagnosed with dystonia in 1991.DMV sent me a medical examination report for me and my doctor to accomplish to determine whether I am medically and physically fit to drive a motor vehicle safely. I went to my HMO (U.S. Healthcare) primary physician and asked him to fill up the report but he declined saying that since my illness is neurological in nature, I should ask my neurologist to accomplish the report. When we left his clinic, I was very depressed and I literally cried in the car going home because I knew that I stand to lose my driver’s license if I cannot find a doctor who will vouch for me as "medically and physically able to drive a motor vehicle safely."  I don’t know what I will do without a car. I am sure my depression will become worse if I become homebound. I have been driving a lot before the accident but since that accident, I think I have used the car only twice a week. I believe I am a careful driver because I have never been involved in an accident nor received a ticket for traffic violation since 1991 and 1983.      

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(U.S. Healthcare) primary physician and asked him to fill up the report but he declined saying that since my illness is neurological in nature, I should ask my neurologist to accomplish the report. When we left his clinic, I was very depressed and I literally cried in the car going home because I knew that I stand to lose my driver’s license if I cannot find a doctor who will vouch for me as "medically and physically able to drive a motor vehicle safely."

Have you been to see your neuro yet?  Seems that since, as you said, your leg is only rigid when you’re standing, he should have no problem in filling out the form for you and getting you back behind the wheel. It’s easy to right away worry about the "worst case" scenario, and becomse quite upset and depressed, but often things turn out to be not that bad (as we hope is the case in this situation!). Do keep us posted as to your neuro’s decision. Cathy. —  (—-)                                                     (—-)   "  "         http://www.cuug.ab.ca:8001/~collisoc          "  "

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dear MB, I think you are right. I have "fear" of becoming dependent rather than being indepen- dent which implies, among other things, the freedom to drive anywhere I please. I have generalized dystonia. I have dystonia of the foot but my neuro,a movement disorder specialist, says that my right leg is rigid only when I walk. Dystonia does not manifest itself or bother me when I am sitting or lying down so it does not affect my driving. I do use two canes when walking but that is to help me maintain my balance. I also have lingual dystonia which has caused me speech, chewing and swallowing difficulties—which do not affect my driving. The request for a medical examination report came about as a result of a minor vehicular accident wherein I caused a few scratches on the right rear side of the   other   vehicle involved. This was my first accident since I started driving here in the US in 1983 and since I was diagnosed with dystonia in 1991.DMV sent me a medical examination report for me and my doctor to accomplish to determine whether I am medically and physically fit to drive a motor vehicle safely. I went to my HMO (U.S. Healthcare) primary physician and asked him to fill up the report but he declined saying that since my illness is neurological in nature, I should ask my neurologist to accomplish the report. When we left his clinic, I was very depressed and I literally cried in the car going home because I knew that I stand to lose my driver’s license if I cannot find a doctor who will vouch for me as "medically and physically able to drive a motor vehicle safely."  I don’t know what I will do without a car. I am sure my depression will become worse if I become homebound. I have been driving a lot before the accident but since that accident, I think I have used the car only twice a week. I believe I am a careful driver because I have never been involved in an accident nor received a ticket for traffic violation since 1991 and 1983.      

Dear Ador, You have made my day by responding to all of us here on a.s.d. I want you to listen carefully!  I use a walker to get around due to generalized dystonia.  I have driven since 1962 and have been lucky to have had no accidents yet [knock on wood!].  I also am relaxed when sitting down so driving is not a problem for me.  I caught something in your other post that waved a major red flag to me…you said that you have Parkinson’s…perhaps that is part of the problem now because Parkinson’s is a progressive disease that leads to severe immobility and eventual death.  Dystonia is a damn nuisance, but does not kill us! Would Mitchel Brin be willing to fill out the form for you?  He apparently acknowledges that sitting & driving are no problem for you. Perhaps some of our NY connections on asd will have some suggestions!  It might be worth the trip to Columbia to attempt to get this resolved!  I am certain that you are a careful driver…I kinda think I am careful because I value my freedom to drive too much to risk throwing it away.   Maybe even a trip to your DMV office with info on dystonia [print out some stuff from the web pages http://www.ziplink.net/users/dystonia] and FIGHT for your license, Ador, knowing that there are a whole bunch of us here supporting you! Please keep us posted and Best Of Luck…I know you can do it, Ador!!! Much Love, MB

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Dear A.S.D. friends: I was overwhelmed by the response to my post re driver’s license for dystonia patients.. Thank you to all those who responded. I was deeply touched. But in my haste to post "Driver’s license for dystonia patients" I failed to include some valuable information which may change your opinion. Even so, I want to be honest to you. The request for Medical Examination from DMV was the result of a minor vehicu- lar accident I was involved in last December 28, 1966. I was driving south on Moonachie road at about 35 mph when a north-bound car swerved to the left into the driveway of Segovia Restaurant. I didn’t see it swerve to the left and I didn’t notice if the other car gave a warning signal. Half of the car body was inside the driveway when I noticed it. But considering the speed at which the other car entered the driveway, I thought that my speed was slow enough to pass the other car safely. But instead of moving on, the other  car suddenly stopped with its rear end protruding. When I saw the other car not moving and its rear end in my path, I hit the brake but the road was wet, my car skidded and struck the rear right side of the other car. The police report said I was trying to beat the other car in getting into the driveway but this is not true. I was going home which is one block away from the site of the accident. I think the reason the other car stopped abruptly is that the other driver realized he entered the wrong way. He entered the driveway exit instead of the entrance to the one-way driveway. The police noticed I was using two canes to walk and he asked me about my medical condition. I told him I have Parkinson’s disease. The police sent a copy of the report to DMV. The DMV sent me a medical examination report which they want me and "my doctor" to accomplish to determine whether I am medically and physically able to drive a motor vehicle safely". I went to my US Healthcare (HMO) primary physician and asked him to accomplish the report but he declined saying that since my illness is neurological in nature, he thinks a neurologist should accomplish the report. When we left his clinic, I was very depressed and I literally cried in the car going home because I knew I stand to lose my driver’s license if I cannot find a doctor who will certify that I am mentally and physically fit to drive. I strongly believe I am mentally and physically fit to drive because I did a lot of driving last year, driving as far north as Paramus which is 10 miles away from home. I can still do it in my present condition. I also believe I am a careful driver but for this accident last Dec. 28, 1996, I think the other driver is partly to blame. I never had an accident before, not even a ticket for a traffic violation. This accident was my first since I started driving in the US IN 1983. I continued to drive even after I was diagnosed with dystonia in 1991. My illness, dystonia of the foot makes walking very difficult for me but not driving. Dr. M. Brin of Mount Sinai Medical Center said my right leg is rigid only when I am walking, but not when I am at rest. My foot dystonia does not manifest itself or bother me when I am sitting or lying down. Hence, it does not affect my driving.         I use two canes when walking to help  me maintain my balance. My tongue dystonia does not interrfere with my driving although it caused me speech, chewing and swallowing difficulty. My illness has some features of Parkinson’s disease and examples of those symptoms are drooling, impaired speech and balance problem–all of which do not affect my driving. I am willing to take driving test for physically challenged people. I am not new to this kind of test. I was given a "Behind-the-wheel evaluation training program" by an Adaptive Driving Specialist from DMV after I completed my physical and speech therapy at Kessler Institute for Rehabilitation in 1993. I passed the test. The Adaptive Driving Specialist makes suggestions for changes/additions or adaptive measures for  cars of people with disabilities so they can continue to drive. My ADS said my car did not need any. Before I can take a new driving test, I need a doctor to certify that I am medically and physically able to drive a motor vehicle safely. If I can’t   get one, I will lose my license by March 18, 1997. I don’t want to be homebound by being denied the privilege to drive. If I become homebound, I am sure my depression will become worse. I just sent my request to my neuro the medical examination report but I am not sure she will agree to accomplish it. I guess doctors are afraid of legal suits if something happens to somebody they certified as medically and physically able to drive a motor vehicle safely. Thank you all for your support and prayers. Ador Peralta

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – (I am on AOL and know how to "quote" when replying to e-mail but when in n/g it does not quote the same way; sorry) Hey, Bonnie. I’m on AOL too and have finally figured it out.  When in doubt, read the directions. If you want it to look like what you wrote above, click on Members, then Preferences, then Mail.  Take the ‘x’ off of "Use AOL style quotes."  Then, when you w I’m still contemplating on your idea of an AOL chat group.  There’s something that ‘doesn’t feel right’ about it but I don’t know what it is.  You, of course, Still getting over my p-neumonia but much better, Chana Mitzvah g’dolah l’hiyot b’simcha. "It is a great mitzvah to exist in a state of joy." Mass General has chat rooms open all the time for neuro patients.  There is one reserved for movement disorders.  We can set up a time and meet there if anyone is interested.  No Ports, No servers , etc.   Easy on and eas off if it doesn’t work.  I’m availabe most times.  Any suggestions on meting times.?

And yet another suggestion, check out the new IRCing program called Orbit IRC. It’s very much a WYSIWYG program, all set out for you.  You can give each person a different colour or font, all kinds of neat stuff useable with just a click. It’s shareware and you can download it from their site.  Sorry, don’t have URL handy, but just do a search on it. Mally  :)

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – (I am on AOL and know how to "quote" when replying to e-mail but when in n/g it does not quote the same way; sorry) Hey, Bonnie. I’m on AOL too and have finally figured it out.  When in doubt, read the directions. If you want it to look like what you wrote above, click on Members, then Preferences, then Mail.  Take the ‘x’ off of "Use AOL style quotes."  Then, when you w I’m still contemplating on your idea of an AOL chat group.  There’s something that ‘doesn’t feel right’ about it but I don’t know what it is.  You, of course, Still getting over my p-neumonia but much better, Chana Mitzvah g’dolah l’hiyot b’simcha. "It is a great mitzvah to exist in a state of joy."

Mass General has chat rooms open all the time for neuro patients.  There is one reserved for movement disorders.  We can set up a time and meet there if anyone is interested.  No Ports, No servers , etc.   Easy on and eas off if it doesn’t work.  I’m availabe most times.  Any suggestions on meting times.? Catherine

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(I am on AOL and know how to "quote" when replying to e-mail but when in n/g it does not quote the same way; sorry)

Hey, Bonnie. I’m on AOL too and have finally figured it out.  When in doubt, read the directions. If you want it to look like what you wrote above, click on Members, then Preferences, then Mail.  Take the ‘x’ off of "Use AOL style quotes."  Then, when you want to quote … either in e-mail or n/gs … just highlight what you want and hit Reply.  BTW, this is called ‘Internet style quoting.’ I’m still contemplating on your idea of an AOL chat group.  There’s something that ‘doesn’t feel right’ about it but I don’t know what it is.  You, of course, are free to do what you want but you wouldn’t be ’sanctioned’ by DMRF or a.s.d. I don’t think.  Are  you having trouble with mIRC or, like for me, it’s almost too busy to follow and talk at the same time with all those people? Still getting over my p-neumonia but much better, Chana Mitzvah g’dolah l’hiyot b’simcha. "It is a great mitzvah to exist in a state of joy."

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Mally, bless you for the caring response to Ador about  her license and depression.  You said it all!! (I am on AOL and know how to "quote" when replying to e-mail but when in n/g it does not quote the same way; sorry) BTW, finally, met someone else with dystonia!!! Thru my dr., I have met another patient and had dinner with him and his wife Saturday.  What a joy for both of us. He is 62 with no computer and was fascinated by my telling him all I have found. You can be sure I will print some of these posts from a.s.d. to show him what a caring group can be found online. It really has helped my depression knowing every morning I can go to a.s.d. and "be" with others who truly know and understand. Love & Hugs,  Bonnie (hey, Texas is drying out!

Hi Bonnie!  I am so very glad that you have met another person with dystonia…it took me 40 years to find another!!  Just a slight correction if ya don’t mind!  Ador is a ‘he’, not a ’she’!  In fact I wonder how he is doing??  Ador, how about an update?? Later, MB

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Question:

Where do I find veterinarian supply companies?   Maybe I’m being lazy here, but if you know I’d appreciate it. I’ve been to farm supply companies but don’t remember seeing tryptophan.  But then I was there for antibiotics myself. (worked great too!!) Thanks, dn

snipped for brevity – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – LT is available in 100 g. or larger quantities from veterinary suppliers, at a cost substantially less than prescription LT, though still more than the OTC product once cost. Veterinary LT is molecularly identical to the tryptophan we are interested in here, and purity and quality control are probably higher than most old OTC products. One caveat: if you are taking a SSRI (Prozac, Paxil, Zoloft, Effexor) antidepressent, concurrent LT use is strongly contradicated, as taking both together can produce the potentially lethal ’serotonin syndrome,’ due to toxic levels of 5-HT in the body. –Will

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Where do I find veterinarian supply companies?   Maybe I’m being lazy here, but if you know I’d appreciate it. I’ve been to farm supply companies but don’t remember seeing tryptophan.  But then I was there for antibiotics myself. (worked great too!!) Thanks, dn snipped for brevity LT is available in 100 g. or larger quantities from veterinary suppliers, at a cost substantially less than prescription LT, though still more than the OTC product once cost. Veterinary LT is molecularly identical to the tryptophan we are interested in here, and purity

There is a mail-order souce in Tucson, I don’t know their name. Check in alt.support.depression, or sci.med.pharmacy. –Will

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snipped for brevity LT is available in 100 g. or larger quantities from veterinary suppliers, at a cost substantially less than prescription LT, though still more than the OTC product once cost. Veterinary LT is molecularly identical to the tryptophan we are interested in here, and purity There is a mail-order souce in Tucson, I don’t know their name. Check in alt.support.depression, or sci.med.pharmacy. –Will

Please also come have a look at our site for this product. Be Well. QHI — Medicines For The Modern Mainstream http://www.qhi.co.uk

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                         The FDA Ban of                     L-Tryptophan:  Politics,                       Profits and Prozac1*                   By Dean Wolfe Manders, Ph.D.                  Copyright, All Rights Reserved      In the fall of 1989, the FDA recalled L-Tryptophan, an amino acid nutritional supplement, stating that it caused a rare and deadly flu-like condition (Eosinophilia-Myalgia Syndrome — EMS). On March 22, 1990, the FDA banned the public sale dietary of L- Tryptophan completely. This ban continues today.      On March 26, 1990, Newsweek featured a lead article praising the virtues of the anti-depressant drug Prozac. Its multi-color cover displayed a floating, gigantic green and white capsule of Prozac with the caption: "Prozac: A Breakthrough Drug for Depression."      The fact that the FDA ban of L-Tryptophan and the Newsweek Prozac cover story occurred within four days of each other went unnoticed by both the media and the public. Yet, to those who understand the effective properties of L-Tryptophan and Prozac, the concurrence seems "unbelievably coincidental." The link here is the brain neurotransmitter serotonin — a biochemical nerve signal conductor. The action of Prozac and L-Tryptophan are both involved with serotonin, but in totally different ways.      Elevated levels of serotonin in the body often result in the relief of depression, as well as substantial reduction in pain sensitivity, anxiety and stress. Prozac, as well as other new anti- depressant drugs such as Paxil and Zoloft, attempt to enhance levels of serotonin by working on whatever amounts of it already exist in the body (these drugs are known as selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors). None of these drugs, however, produce serotonin. In contrast, ingested L-Tryptophan acts to produce serotonin, even in individuals who generate little serotonin of their own. The most effective way to elevate levels of serotonin would be to use a serotonin producer rather than a serotonin enhancer.      The continuing FDA public ban of L-Tryptophan prevents popular access to this most effective serotonin producer. The millions of Americans who for decades safely had relied upon L-Tryptophan to relieve depression, anxiety and PMS, as well as to control pain and induce natural sleep, have been forced elsewhere for solutions. Routinely, such solutions are pharmaceutical in nature: people are forced to use either often highly addictive, expensive, and some- times dangerous drugs like Xanax, Valium, Halcion, Dalmane, Co- deine, Anafranil, Prozac, and others, or, simply suffer.      Present FDA public policy maintains that L-Tryptophan is an untested, unapproved and hazardous drug. The analytical work done a few years ago by the Centers for Disease Control and the Mayo Clinic, research which traced the fall 1989 outbreak of the serious flu-like condition to contaminants found in batches of L-Tryptophan made by the Japanese company Showa Denko, has not convinced the FDA to allow L-Tryptophan back on the market. This decision is based primarily on the research of FDA and NIMH scientists who state that L-Tryptophan itself, irrespective of contaminants, is a dangerous substance. Other university-based research scientists disagree with these findings.      The public availability of L-Tryptophan is too important an issue only to be argued and shrouded within a scientific debate that remains, ultimately, mystifying to the vast majority of Americans. There are many obvious facts worthy of public attention, and public concern. For example, consider the following:      ~ On February 9, 1993, a United States government patent (#5185157) was issued to use L-Tryptophan to treat, and cure EMS, the very same deadly flu-like condition which prompted the FDA to take L-Tryptophan off the market in 1989.      ~ Notwithstanding its public ban and import alert on L- Tryptophan, the FDA today allows Ajinomoto U.S.A. the right to import from Japan human-use L-Tryptophan.  Distributed from the Ajinomoto plant in Raleigh, North Carolina, the L-Tryptophan is then sold to, and through, a network of compounding pharmacies across the United States. Purchased by individuals only under a physician’s order, L-Tryptophan emerges here as a new prescription drug in the serotonin marketplace; one hundred 500 mg capsules cost about $75.00, approximately five times more than if they were sold as a dietary supplement.      Since the FDA holds the political mandate and power of a public regulatory agency established, ostensibly, to protect people from raw corporate interests in drug production and distribution, the actions of the FDA in concert with Ajinomoto U.S.A. are illumi- nating. By publicly banning L-Tryptophan from its dietary supple- ment status and price, while allowing L-Tryptophan to be sold as a high-priced prescription drug, the naked duplicity of FDA L- Tryptophan policy is revealed.      ~ During and after the 1989 EMS outbreak, the FDA did not totally ban the use of L-Tryptophan in humans — then, as today, the FDA has granted the pharmaceutical industry the protected right to use L-Tryptophan in hospital settings.  Manufactured by Abbott Laboratories, the amino acid injectable solutions Aminosyn and Aminosyn II contain as much as 200 mg of L-Tryptophan.  (Moreover, L-Tryptophan has never been removed from baby food produced and sold within the United States.)      ~ While the FDA has banned the public sale and use of safe, non-contaminated, dietary supplement L-Tryptophan for people, the United States Department of Agriculture still sanctions the legal sale and use of non-contaminated L-Tryptophan for animals.  Today, as in the past, feed grade L-Tryptophan continues to be used as a nutritional and bulk feed additive by the commercial hog and chicken farming industry.  Additionally, L-Tryptophan is now available for use by veterinarians in caring for horses and pets.   ~ Outside of the United States, in countries such as Canada, the Netherlands, Germany, England, and others, L-Tryptophan is widely used. Nowhere, have any serious or widespread health problems occurred.      At bottom, the FDA public ban of safe, non-contaminated L- Tryptophan is uneven, expensive, and biased in favor of the phar- maceutical industry. The FDA proscription effectively awards billions of dollars in profits to pharmaceutical companies and their suppliers in the same proportion as it adds billions of unnecessary dollars to the nation’s already bloated health care expenditures.      On June 15, 1993, the FDA Dietary Supplement Task Force published a report on the work it had been doing in the area of developing FDA policy around nutritional supplements. On page two, the report admits, "The Task Force considered various issues in its deliberations, including… what steps are necessary to ensure that the existence of dietary supplements on the market does not act as a disincentive for drug development."      In this case, the FDA has succeeded in carrying out its stated policy goal. With competition from publicly available L-Tryptophan removed, the rapidly expanding market in prescription serotonin drugs — now among them L-Tryptophan itself — contains no major "disincentives" for the massive accumulation of pharmaceutical industry profits.      It is now time for appropriate congressional committees to review openly and aggressively the entire matter of L-Tryptophan. This will provide a needed forum where political, corporate, and scientific issues of FDA L-Tryptophan regulatory policy may be addressed. There exists ample precedent for such hearings: in the 1980’s and early 1990’s, for example, such investigations uncovered FDA favoritism in the approval of generic drugs and the bribery of FDA officials.      The story of L-Tryptophan illustrates a sad and perverse picture of the politics and priorities of public health in America: A safe, dietary-supplement serotonin producer is publicly unavailable to people, while daily fed to animals by corporate agribusiness.  A drug patent is approved to use L-Tryptophan to cure the very condition the FDA claims it caused.  And, while publicly exclaiming that L-Tryptophan is a dangerous and untested drug, the FDA, more quietly, allows human-use L-Tryptophan to be imported, and then marketed and sold by the pharmaceutical industry.       To allow the FDA ban of L-Tryptophan to continue unreviewed and uninvestigated condemns millions of Americans to unnecessary financial expenditures and needless suffering.      1.  This article appeared in Social Policy, Vol. 26, No. 2, Winter 1995.  Dean Wolfe Manders is a senior lecturer in humanities and sciences at the California College of Arts and Crafts, Oakland/San Francisco.  He has lectured and done extensive research on the medical politics of L-Tryptophan.      *Blazing Tattles, June 96.  Responses to the above article may be quoted in future issues unless writer explicitly requests otherwise.  For information about Blazing Tattles send inquiry to: Tattles at P.O. Box 1073, Half Moon Bay, CA 94019.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yet, to those who understand the effective properties of L-Tryptophan and Prozac, the concurrence seems "unbelievably coincidental." The link here is the brain neurotransmitter serotonin — a biochemical nerve signal conductor. The action of Prozac and L-Tryptophan are both involved with serotonin, but in totally different ways.      Elevated levels of serotonin in the body often result in the relief of depression, as well as substantial reduction in pain sensitivity, anxiety and stress. Prozac, as well as other new anti- depressant drugs such as Paxil and Zoloft, attempt to enhance levels of serotonin by working on whatever amounts of it already exist in the body (these drugs are known as selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors). None of these drugs, however, produce serotonin. In contrast, ingested L-Tryptophan acts to produce serotonin, even in individuals who generate little serotonin of their own. The most effective way to elevate levels of serotonin would be to use a serotonin producer rather than a serotonin enhancer.

Agreed that SSRIs and LTryptophan both work on serotonin. I have used both with good results. The distinction needs to be made that some depressions are more neurologic, others more hormonal or enzymatic. In cases of the former, SSRIs generally work much better, and in the latter, LT works better. I also agree that the continuing FDA ban looks suspicious, and it ought to be lifted immediately. LT is available in 100 g. or larger quantities from veterinary suppliers, at a cost substantially less than prescription LT, though still more than the OTC product once cost. Veterinary LT is molecularly identical to the tryptophan we are interested in here, and purity and quality control are probably higher than most old OTC products. One caveat: if you are taking a SSRI (Prozac, Paxil, Zoloft, Effexor) antidepressent, concurrent LT use is strongly contradicated, as taking both together can produce the potentially lethal ’serotonin syndrome,’ due to toxic levels of 5-HT in the body. –Will

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