Question:

White Knight — I am similar to you in a lot of ways  (top education, unable to work, worried about going bankrupt and losing my home, etc.) and would really like to hear your wisdom.  But it’s just impossible for me to read what you have to say through all the ranting and shouting. I hope you will get some relief and be able to have the career that seems important to you.  I am having trouble not giving up, but I am getting really bored with daytime t.v. and internet stuff. "If this is coffee, please bring me some tea.  If this is tea, please bring me some coffee."                                                            - Abraham Lincoln

Response:

I am sick and tired about all these posts trying to scare people away from trying xanax.  As someone who has suffered from bipolar disorder(type 2) for 15 years, tried all the antidepressants, now on a cocktail of meds, including xanax and paxil, my experience is that PAXIL has many more adverse effects versus the marginal benefit of some anxiety relief.  I took Paxil for 5 months and was not taking any xanax, and I got some anticapation anxiety relief at the cost of NO LIBIDO, sleeping 12 hours a day, having no motivation, just didn’t give a shit, already gained 10 pounds in 5 months with the carbo craving…..And people want to talk about xanax dependency and problems with withdrawl.  I am not trying to minimize people’s experience or their pain, but with anxiety or other mental health issues, the word is YOUR MILEAGE MAY VARY(YMMY).  I am a college graduate in electrical engineering from a top 5 engineering college, and now have not worked for over two years mostly because of anxiety and some depression yearly.  After working for 11 years struggling with depression and anxiety, I now have a hard time stepping outside my home.  I have considered suicide 1000’s of times over the last 15 years, actually researched and made the plans and was about to end it, and then I started on the Paxil…….Yeah, my suicidal obsessions went away, but now I was content to veg out all day watching TY or on the Net, my desire to GET A JOB disappeared.  Go research web sites and you will see how many people have problems with SSRI’s, yeah they are alive and taking that $3 pill two times a day or many $3 pills for me, but now I am NUMB and just there.  Prior to Paxil I use to be a emotional person, felt the pain of others and would cry when touched by something, but now I am a Paxil-zombie, yeah some anxiety relief but a LOT OF ME is also gone.  So all those xanax phobics, please allow people to fail with their options without scaring them.  What are people’s choices when it comes to anxiety or panic, yes paxil, yes benzo’s, yes MAIO’s, yes CBT(Cognitive Behavior Therapy).  My experience is PAXIL SUCKS and THE WITHDRAWAL IS HORRIBLE BASED ON MUCH FEEDBACK I HAVE READ ON THE NET, MAIO’S like parnate have some studies that back them up but the food restrictions are VERY DIFFICULT(no cheese, wine, beer, chocolate, many OTC meds, etc.), CBT might work for some but the feedback I have heard is that CBT plus meds work the best and I HAVE DONE THE THERAPY ROUTE and it was a waste of money. As one doctor told me, people who suffer from PANIC and think they are dieing have never been told that "your not going to die, it is all in your head"…Well that was my last session with him.  Just to repeat, this is MY EXPERIENCE and YOUR MILEAGE MAY VARY.  Now I could continue to HIBERNATE IN MY HOUSE, NOT WORK, RUN OUT OF MONEY AND THEN BE HOMELESS…..Or I can be proactive and continue to experiment and try to find some solution that will allow me to work and have a life.  I have taken xanax in the past, just started it one month ago, still taking a low dose of paxil, and I am MUCH MUCH BETTER at dealing with day to day life, interacting with people, giving my shit done, etc. Yeah, maybe I will be taking xanax for the rest of my life but the only side effect I have had is some sleepiness.  And to those who talk about TOLERANCE BUILDUP, that is a CROCK, yes you might have to increase your xanax from .25mg 3 times a day to .50mg 3 times a day, there are people who have taken xanax for 5 to 15 years and most leveled out after 1 year at a dose and have no desire to increase. People need to do some research and FIND OUT THE REAL TRUTH, not what BIG PHARMA and BIG BUSINESS OWNED MEDIA OUTLETS want us to believe. Not to be cynical, but $3 no generic available paxil is much better for DRUG COMPANIES, then CHEAP GENERIC XANAX which might be more effective with less side-effects.  Why are benzo’s so hard to get, cause drug lobbiest have access to CONGRESS and made sure that THE NO-PROFIT SOLUTIONS(IE LIKE BENZO’S) are not readily available. Let me make THE NEWCOMERS TO MENTAL ILLNESS aware that HYPE ABOUT THE LATEST ANTIDEPRESSANT HAS EVERYTHING TO DO WITH THE BILLIONS OF DOLLARS THAT WILL BE MADE ON THE DRUG, and the only time you will hear about THE NEGATIVES about that drug will be when it comes off-patent. Now that we have generic prozac, we will hear more about side effects like NO LIBIDO, WEIGHT GAIN, SUICIDE, AND OTHER  EFEECTS.  Of course, as long as Paxil and Zoloft have no generics, MEDIA HYPE will be still muted, but give it time.  Just as all the SSRI’s go generic, we will hear about ALL THE NEGATIVES and out will come the new batch of 8 TO 12 WEEK STUDIED ANTIDEPRESSANTS to start the new profit cycle.  People with mental illness are just pawns, half ass useless meds are approved based on 8 week studies, NO REASON FOR A LONG TERM STUDY, we really don’t want to KNOW THE TRUTH, and as soon as the generics start rolling out, OUT COMES THE DIRTY LAUNDRY, not to HELP US, NO, ONLY SO THAT WE GO ON THE LATEST $5 PILL THAT HAS A 80% SUCCESS RATE AND EVEN LESS SIDE EFFECTS.  Hell as long as everyone is making money, who cares about THE CRAZIES that take the product, we just need them alive and taking their meds.  Now I forget, was I taking about the cigarette industry or drug companies, HELL WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE.  This of course is just the opinion of a mentally ill patient with 15 years of experience popping pills, all of which have a 70% effective rate, but I guess I am the exception, "ALIVE" AND NOT SUICIDAL, AND NOT HAPPY ABOUT IT. White Knight

Response:

Question:

Theoretically the canisters should last 30 days, but I find them running low quicker than that.  So with Advair you wouldn’t have to worry about that.

Right 28 days with a counter which reduces after each dose,

Response:

there is a major advantage in patient compliance having only one product to use instead of two. Another advantage is that the dose is adjustable. – it comes in low and high doses. It seems that the attractive package does make it more patient compliant, as soon as he recovers from the sticker shock. Murray Grossan, M.D. http://www.ent-consult.com http://www.TinnitusRelief.net http://www.emedicine.com/ent/topic516.htm

Response:

My doctor told me the Advair was more expensive.   Is it really true that the Servent/Flovent is more expensive?  And, I’m talking about the real cost, not the fact that I’d have one copay instead of two. Another factor is, for me, I don’t get

Advair is more expensive versus one inhaler but if you add the Flovent inhaler and the Serevent inhaler they will be less.

Response:

 The final question is cost: does your health insurance cover Advair.

It should as you save around $30.00 by using the advair rather then the Flovent and Serevent separately.I would think if you presented this to the insurance people they would appreciate you trying to save them money.

Response:

 The final question is cost: does your health insurance cover Advair. It should as you save around $30.00 by using the advair rather then the Flovent and Serevent separately.I would think if you presented this to the insurance people they would appreciate you trying to save them money.

My doctor told me the Advair was more expensive.   Is it really true that the Servent/Flovent is more expensive?  And, I’m talking about the real cost, not the fact that I’d have one copay instead of two. Another factor is, for me, I don’t get the 120 doses per canister of Serevent and Flovent.  Theoretically the canisters should last 30 days, but I find them running low quicker than that.  So with Advair you wouldn’t have to worry about that.

Response:

Is there something about combining Flovent and Serevent into one package that is more effective than taking them separately?

There are two advantages. 1) The delivery system takes less kill/practice and since MDI technique is notoriously horrible it is hoped that the delivery will be better. 2) Cost. The Advair discuss is priced less than the two inhalers separately and if you pay by the copay it will probably be only one instead of two. — CBI, MD "Believe those who are seeking the truth; doubt those who find it." -Andre Gide

Response:

My doctor told me the Advair was more expensive.   Is it really true that the Servent/Flovent is more expensive?  And, I’m talking about the real cost, not the fact that I’d have one copay instead of two.

All prices are AWP (average wholesale price). Induhvidual indusurers may make special deals. That said: Advair is more expensive that either Flovent or Serevent alone but less expensive than both. Since the Pulmicort Turbuhaler has three months worth of medicine in each device it is less expensive than Flovent and the combo od Pulmicort and Serevent is about the same as Advair. Oc course, if it cuts two co-pays to one it is cheaper for you regardless of AWP. In my experience the only insurers that won’t pay for Advair also don’t pay for Serevent. Another factor is, for me, I don’t get the 120 doses per canister of Serevent and Flovent.  Theoretically the canisters should last 30 days, but I find them running low quicker than that.  So with Advair you wouldn’t have to worry about that.

Correct. Since it has a numerical counter and a delivery device that does not rely on gas pressures you would not have to guess exactly when it will run out either. — CBI, MD

Response:

Why all this hype about Advair?  All it is, is a combination of Flovent’s active ingredient + Serevent’s active ingredient, in a funny new package. Is there something about combining Flovent and Serevent into one package that is more effective than taking them separately? — Steven D. Litvintchouk                   Advair cuts down on number of inhalers used: from two to one. Also  the

delivery system is different: Advair uses a powder and Flovent is a mdi. If you have problems with an mdi, then, on that basis, the switch to advair could be indicated. The problem with Advair is that during an exacerbation you cannot vary the Advair dosage, you will have to supplement with Flovent in whatever strength is required. In terms of efficacy, from personal experience, I find no difference and this is supported by my pulmonologist.  The final question is cost: does your health insurance cover Advair. John – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

Why all this hype about Advair?  All it is, is a combination of Flovent’s active ingredient + Serevent’s active ingredient, in a funny new package. Is there something about combining Flovent and Serevent into one package that is more effective than taking them separately?

According to my Pulmologist the powder form is more effective in getting into your lungs and does a better job.

Response:

Only a couple of differences. — It’s a dry powder inhaler, so no propellant to react to. — It’s one puff twice daily, not 2 each twice daily (i.e., 1 not 4, twice daily)  Helps compliance — There’s a counter on the device.  Helps keep track of when to replace. There were studies about it being more effective than just flovent, but I haven’t seen anything about it being better than the pair of medications prescribed separately.  Other than what’s listed above, it would appear to be a compliance issue.  I prefer it since I cough after taking the 4 puffs, but not after taking advair.  YMMV. Liam

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My pulmonologist wants to try switching me from Flovent to Advair. And I’ve heard so many other asthma and COPD patients praising Advair. Why all this hype about Advair?  All it is, is a combination of Flovent’s active ingredient + Serevent’s active ingredient, in a funny new package. Is there something about combining Flovent and Serevent into one package that is more effective than taking them separately? — Steven D. Litvintchouk

Response:

My pulmonologist wants to try switching me from Flovent to Advair. And I’ve heard so many other asthma and COPD patients praising Advair. Why all this hype about Advair?  All it is, is a combination of Flovent’s active ingredient + Serevent’s active ingredient, in a funny new package. Is there something about combining Flovent and Serevent into one package that is more effective than taking them separately? — Steven D. Litvintchouk                  

Response:

Question:

I am a 23 year old who has had excercise induced asthma since I was 16.  Until I was 22, I was able to control my symptoms with Proventil. In the past year, I developed horrible asthma symptoms on a regular basis, not just from excercise.  While I have been able to control the symptoms with Pulmicort and Serevent during regular activity, I am still unable to excercise easily.  It take me weeks to build up the ability to jog on a treadmill for 10 minutes.  I have always been an active person and have become frustrated and angered by my inability to excercise.

Ask your doctor about FloVent.  I consider it a miracle drug since my asthma and COPD are slowly improving ever since I started taking it. If anyone has any suggestions on medications and/or other techniques that help them with their excercise induced asthma, please contact me by email at Monitoring you lung condition with a peak flow meter can let you know where you are at: an Action Plan can be used to adjust asthma drugs per peak flow readings. Before vigorous exercise you should be near the top of the Green Zone. Monitor the smog level and pollen levels (if allergic) and exercise when levels are low; usually in the morning or late evening. Breathe thru the nose to filter out irritatants and humidify the air (some wear a surgical mask). Warm up slowly. Links;

Try Tai Chi.  It is good exercise, promotes physical mobility and flexibility and once you get good at it, you will be surprised at the increase in fitness. http://www.physsportsmed.com/issues/jan_96/rupp.htm   Diagnosis and Management of Exercise-Induced Asthma, Jan 96 http://asthma.miningco.com/msub5.htm Sports and Exercise http://www.aaaai.org/public/publicedmat/tips/tip01.html EXERCISE-INDUCED ASTHM & BRONCHOSPASM (AAAAI) http://www.runnersworld.com/injuries/asthma.html ASTHMA, EXERCISE-INDUCED Ellis

Sue "It was said she held a grudge until it died of old age, and then had it stuff and mounted…"                         David Weber

Response:

Aha – Norm – I’m one step ahead of you again – I’ve set up my own interstellar spamming station – now even extraterrestrials will be prewarned about your spamtastic spuriosity!! You see Norm – once again buteyko fails in the face of scientific rigour and advancement. For those interested SETI – The Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence – have created a downloadable data-chunk screensaver that will allow you to http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/ Rich. (In addition there are reports of a distinct lack of intelligent life on planet Buteyko!!!!!!!)

Response:

Hi Richard I’m amused, I’m sure you can do better than that. I couldn’t find any reference to asthma in you posting at all. Norman – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Aha – Norm – I’m one step ahead of you again – I’ve set up my own interstellar spamming station – now even extraterrestrials will be prewarned about your spamtastic spuriosity!! You see Norm – once again buteyko fails in the face of scientific rigour and advancement. For those interested SETI – The Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence – have created a downloadable data-chunk screensaver that will allow you to http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/ Rich. (In addition there are reports of a distinct lack of intelligent life on planet Buteyko!!!!!!!)

Response:

Hi Richard – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Richard I’m amused, I’m sure you can do better than that. I couldn’t find any reference to asthma in you posting at all. Norman Ahhh Norm – your ignorance is once again apparent – ET asked for email replies – read her post – I am not interested in public displays and proliferation – just helping fellow asthmatics and sportspeople.

Yes I know, my mistake. I noticed that just after I’d posted it to the ng. So I sent a reply by email as well. Norman

Response:

Hi Richard I’m amused, I’m sure you can do better than that. I couldn’t find any reference to asthma in you posting at all. Norman

Ahhh Norm – your ignorance is once again apparent – ET asked for email replies – read her post – I am not interested in public displays and proliferation – just helping fellow asthmatics and sportspeople.

Response:

I would suggest you speak to your pulmonologist about one of the leukotriene inhibitors (ACCOLATE, ZYFLO or my preference SINGULAIR).  All of these have been beneficial to various degrees in exercise induced asthma. Scooby RCP, EMT-P

Response:

I am a 23 year old who has had excercise induced asthma since I was 16.  Until I was 22, I was able to control my symptoms with Proventil. In the past year, I developed horrible asthma symptoms on a regular basis, not just from excercise.  While I have been able to control the symptoms with Pulmicort and Serevent during regular activity, I am still unable to excercise easily.  It take me weeks to build up the ability to jog on a treadmill for 10 minutes.  I have always been an active person and have become frustrated and angered by my inability to excercise.   If anyone has any suggestions on medications and/or other techniques that help them with their excercise induced asthma, please contact me by email at

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am a 23 year old who has had exercise induced asthma since I was 16. Until I was 22, I was able to control my symptoms with Proventil. In the past year, I developed horrible asthma symptoms on a regular basis, not just from excercise. While I have been able to control the symptoms with Pulmicort and Serevent during regular activity, I am still unable to excercise easily.  It take me weeks to build up the ability to jog on a treadmill for 10 minutes.  I have always been an active person and have become frustrated and angered by my inability to excercise. If anyone has any suggestions on medications and/or other techniques that help them with their excercise induced asthma, please contact me by email at

Hi I’ve found the Buteyko breathing technique very useful when exercising, I now no longer need to use Ventolin before exercise. Give it a try. Buteyko is a breathing technique. But unlike many other breathing methods Buteyko’s aim is to breath less. Buteyko has improved my asthma, reduced my Ventolin to zero and my steroids by half. I would recommend all asthmatics to try it to see if it works for them. However a word of warning, some have felt so good after using it for a few months they have thrown their medication away. You should continue to carry your medication even though your asthma may be in remission. Buteyko is a great method to help reduce asthma – it is not a miracle cure. For a good introducing and more information on Buteyko try http://www.wt.com.au/~pkolb/buteyko.htm. It is best viewed by using the option to download the whole site and then read at leisure. There is quite a lot of it. See the ‘Get Started Now’ section, to get you started. It is completely free. But for both sides of the camp go to http://home.netscape.com/ and search for Buteyko using SNAP. This will give you other sites of interest including http://home.pacbell.net/colin/ which is Colin Campell’s rejection of the method (which I disagree with). Norman

Response:

Question:

Paul, perhaps try some Paxil instead of prozac. If you are Bipolar, try some Lamictal <sp which has some anti-depressant properties. This is what helps my seasonal depression to some degree. (this has not been a good year for me, since my Mother passed away January 2003) Hugs, Ralph

It does? My pdoc gave me some. I’m taking Paxil currently. I feel like depression is often at the core of my problems. MorphGrrl

Response:

Yes, Lamictal is a mood stableizer with some anti-depressant properties. You will discover that my Bipolar Disorder takes the unenviable configuration of  98% depression, 1% "normal" (whatever that is?), and 1% mixed states, irritable depression, also known as "Rotten Ralph" <grin.

I tend to get euphoric at times and learned how bring it out in some way. But it still is much depression even if slightly now. I did better in sales today at work so that made me happier. Before I went to work I was a teeny bit ho hum in a sense, but looking at sites that made me laugh a little, helped my mood. Remembering it’s Valentine’s day makes my mood go in a roller coaster. Over all it’s not a bad dip because of the meds, but annoying in a sense. I’m the serial hugger, today. Hugs, Ralph

Ahhhhh, thanks Ralph! MorphGrrl

Response:

Every so often I go into deep drepressive cycles. I don’t want to be depressed. I live on Wellbutrin, Xanax, and Seroquel for sleeping at night. However, I can’t shake it. It’s like drowning or being smothered by a wet blanket. I manage to work, but I engage in self destructive behavior. Certain external things must trigger the depresssion, but it’s also got to be chemical.  The last time this stuff happened was the end of August, beginning of September. I ended up overdosing on xanax and spent a couple of days in the hospital detoxing. It was a very stressful and not very helpful experience. People on this board were very helpful in suggesting strongly help. Some of the earlier stressful things are moot.  The psychiatrist said he thought I had something like a post traumatic stress syndrome, whatever that exactly means. I’ve had life-long depression; and I finally found, I think a therapist who can deal with all of the abuse issues, if I can make it until some problems are solved, if they are solveable.  I’m one of those rare middle aged males who feel better when they’ve cut themselves.  There are some days when I feel that I can’t turn myself off and I get little sleep for days and then the deep depression returns.  The doctor insists I’m not bi-polar.     Should I suggest upping the Wellbutrin dosage from 300 mg to 400?   This stuff can be dangerous. I’ve already taken tricyclics, trazodone, prozac, effexor (horrible to quit), and even large amounts of lithium (which I"ve overdosed on twice, so maybe taking it isn’t a great idea)   as a  mood stabilizer plus some klonopin and other meds over the years. The Wellbutrin helped at first. However, after a year or so of it the effects seem to be less effective.     I guess what I really want to know is can one put Humpty Dumpty back together again?  Maybe some of us are really too damaged goods. I’m really depressed with unexplained cyring fits yet. I’m so tired of  this routine. I undermine good things and compliments just make me more depressed.     I only write to this board when I’m in a crisis, which doesn’t make me a very helpful person. However, if someone could offer some hope, I’d appreciate it.  People were exceptionally helpful last September.  Maybe just writing to this address makes me feel better. I even took up excercising. I seem to be doing everything right, but I still feel so depressed; and cutting myself with razor blades, even if I’m just nicking myself and drawing blood, can’t be a good omen. I do feel better though.  If  I sound confused I am; and, I’m tired. Can a person live indefinitely on Wellbutrin, Xanax, and Seroquel?  It doesn’t sound like a constructive way of life.     Thanks for any suggestions,        Paul

Response:

Question:

One junior aspirin is ok, but large doses are contraindicated with insulin or glucose-reducing tablets. Possible hypos you see. References Professor Peter Sonksen Emeritus Professor of Endocrinology Guy`s, King`s and St. Thomas` Hospitals` School of Medicine St. Thomas Hospital London Dr. Charles Fox Consultant Physician Northampton General Hospital Sue Judd DSN St. Thomas` Hospital London — Al. Idiopathic t1 HbA1c 5.95 Total Chol 2.7 Blood Pressure 105/70 Beef Lente 1x Beef Neutral 2x

Response:

Many diabetologists prescribe 75mg aspirin per day as a matter of course since stroke is major danger for T2s.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is it the same for paracetamol? Ian I done some searching, and the supposed dangers of paracetamol are just one more urban myth. http://tinyurl.com/zau9 A website that has a vested interest. They also don’t mention liver damage due to paracetamol which eventually causes death. They quote 30+ tablets are required to kill you. They don’t say that liver damage can occur with far fewer. They also don’t point out that a tub of 100 can be bought for a couple of quid, or that an overdose of, for example, 100 prozac/effexor can be survived but are POM. Al, with your inherehent cynicism I’m surprised you don’t look for the info that’s between the lines.

With my inherent cynicism I don`t trust a mere paramedic dxed less than 6 months ago. Is your HbA1c less than 6mmol yet? Might be, if so good. Is your total chol below 4 yet? If so good Stick around a bit, some of us here were dxed decades ago, you might learn, but with you inherent arrogance you might not. I remember you claiming on upsd that dm can cause immediate organ failure. Oh no, it is takes 20+ years to do it slowly and painfully. Paracetamol used correctly takes at least that long to cause liver failure. Al Cynical to my last dying breath.

Response:

Is it the same for paracetamol? Ian

I done some searching, and the supposed dangers of paracetamol are just one more urban myth. http://tinyurl.com/zau9 — Al. Idiopathic t1 HbA1c 5.95 Total Chol 2.7 Blood Pressure 105/70 Beef Lente 1x Beef Neutral 2x

Response:

One junior aspirin is ok, but large doses are contraindicated with insulin or glucose-reducing tablets. Possible hypos you see.

Funny, my GP said that when I asked about using aspirin as an anti- coagulant: no more than 75 mg. He didn’t connect it with diabetes though. — Joe Soap

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is it the same for paracetamol? Ian Not afaik. But paracetamol in very very large doses damages the liver, or so I am told,  by a doctor I used to trust back in the good old 1970`s when I was not diabetic. Paracetamol is dangerous in *not very* large dosages. In fact I’d go as far as to say it is probably the most dangerous non-prescription medicinal drug.

Do you have an URL, please? You might well be right, I certainly prefer not to touch it. — Al. Idiopathic t1 HbA1c 5.95 Total Chol 2.7 Blood Pressure 105/70 Beef Lente 1x Beef Neutral 2x

Response:

Is it the same for paracetamol? Ian

Not afaik. But paracetamol in very very large doses damages the liver, or so I am told,  by a doctor I used to trust back in the good old 1970`s when I was not diabetic. — Al. Idiopathic t1 HbA1c 5.95 Total Chol 2.7 Blood Pressure 105/70 Beef Lente 1x Beef Neutral 2x

Response:

Is it the same for paracetamol? Ian

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – One junior aspirin is ok, but large doses are contraindicated with insulin or glucose-reducing tablets. Possible hypos you see. References Professor Peter Sonksen Emeritus Professor of Endocrinology Guy`s, King`s and St. Thomas` Hospitals` School of Medicine St. Thomas Hospital London Dr. Charles Fox Consultant Physician Northampton General Hospital Sue Judd DSN St. Thomas` Hospital London — Al. Idiopathic t1 HbA1c 5.95 Total Chol 2.7 Blood Pressure 105/70 Beef Lente 1x Beef Neutral 2x

Response:

Is it the same for paracetamol? Ian Not afaik. But paracetamol in very very large doses damages the liver, or so I am told,  by a doctor I used to trust back in the good old 1970`s when I was not diabetic.

A great many suicides are caused by overdosing on paracetamol. The sad bit is that death is not immediate, but if not treated within a few hours, the liver damage is irreversible, so the patient dies slowly over the next few days even though they might have had a change of heart about killing themselves. Many suicide attempts are in reality a cry for help, not a genuine desire to end it all. At one time it was suggested that all paracetamol tablets have the antidote incorporated into them, so that the more tablets you took, the more antidote you got, and the whole thing was self neutralising, but nothing ever happened and the suicides continue. I had a relative who had a very close shave overdosing with paracetamol. — Chris E-mail: christopher[dot]hogg[at]virgin[dot]net

Response:

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m a 30 year old male already suffering from hairloss. I was thinking of starting to take antidepressants, but I don’t want to take a drug that will accelerate my already natural hairloss. Has anyone experienced hairloss using the following drugs: 1. Fluvoxamine (Luvox) 2. Fluoxetine (Prozac) 3. Sertraline (Zoloft) 4. Paroxetine (Paxil) 5. Citalopram (Celexa) 6. Clomipramine (Anafranil) 7. Venlafaxine (Effexor) Try Wellbutrin. It causes a larger output of…er…you know. The intensity  will make you forget about hair loss. Do a google search on ASD-med  using words hair and Wellbutrin. Posters have repeatedly reported hair loss,  and or courser hair from WB. .

My hair is growing faster. I think everything is being produced faster. I just started Rispardol and it put a slight damper on everythiung feelings-wise. (.5 mg)

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m a 30 year old male already suffering from hairloss. I was thinking of starting to take antidepressants, but I don’t want to take a drug that will accelerate my already natural hairloss. Has anyone experienced hairloss using the following drugs: 1. Fluvoxamine (Luvox) 2. Fluoxetine (Prozac) 3. Sertraline (Zoloft) 4. Paroxetine (Paxil) 5. Citalopram (Celexa) 6. Clomipramine (Anafranil) 7. Venlafaxine (Effexor) Try Wellbutrin. It causes a larger output of…er…you know. The intensity  will make you forget about hair loss.

Do a google search on ASD-med  using words hair and Wellbutrin. Posters have repeatedly reported hair loss,  and or courser hair from WB. .

Response:

I’m a 30 year old male already suffering from hairloss. I was thinking of starting to take antidepressants, but I don’t want to take a drug that will accelerate my already natural hairloss. Has anyone experienced hairloss using the following drugs:

LOL. Don’t worry about the hairloss. I’ve never heard of SSRIs causing hairloss. Of the ones you listed I would pick fluoxetine because (I’m assuming you’re in the U.S.), it’s the cheapest – you can get generic fluoxetine now because Eli Lilly’s patent has run out. None of them are necessarily better than any other, but they have slightly different side-effect profiles. Zoloft was very friendly side-effects wise for me, so you may want to consider that. However because it has a short half-life, you may get withdrawals (I did). I don’t think anyone has got withdrawals from fluoxetine because of its very long half life. I would leave Effexor as a second option if the SSRI stops working, or doesn’t work at all. It has very bad withdrawals from what I’ve read. And it seems it’s extremely expensive over there (correct me if I’m wrong). — Regards, .

Response:

stimulants like wellbutrin will only make it worse in the long run and wellbutrin is even more likely to give you tardive dyskinesia than the ssris’s – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m a 30 year old male already suffering from hairloss. I was thinking of starting to take antidepressants, but I don’t want to take a drug that will accelerate my already natural hairloss. Has anyone experienced hairloss using the following drugs: 1. Fluvoxamine (Luvox) 2. Fluoxetine (Prozac) 3. Sertraline (Zoloft) 4. Paroxetine (Paxil) 5. Citalopram (Celexa) 6. Clomipramine (Anafranil) 7. Venlafaxine (Effexor) Try Wellbutrin. It causes a larger output of…er…you know. The intensity  will make you forget about hair loss.

– Steroids caused my depression, infertility, breast development and shrunken testicles …prednisone should be used conservatively Eric

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m a 30 year old male already suffering from hairloss. I was thinking of starting to take antidepressants, but I don’t want to take a drug that will accelerate my already natural hairloss. Has anyone experienced hairloss using the following drugs: 1. Fluvoxamine (Luvox) 2. Fluoxetine (Prozac) 3. Sertraline (Zoloft) 4. Paroxetine (Paxil) 5. Citalopram (Celexa) 6. Clomipramine (Anafranil) 7. Venlafaxine (Effexor)

Try Wellbutrin. It causes a larger output of…er…you know. The intensity  will make you forget about hair loss.

Response:

Why not try mirtazapine? I can’t believe how fast my hair has been growing since i started it. My barber has even commented on it.

Response:

Sorry, too depressed to care about hair loss. — Teilhard Knight The Extraterrestrial Who ate my sandwich? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m a 30 year old male already suffering from hairloss. I was thinking of starting to take antidepressants, but I don’t want to take a drug that will accelerate my already natural hairloss. Has anyone experienced hairloss using the following drugs: 1. Fluvoxamine (Luvox) 2. Fluoxetine (Prozac) 3. Sertraline (Zoloft) 4. Paroxetine (Paxil) 5. Citalopram (Celexa) 6. Clomipramine (Anafranil) 7. Venlafaxine (Effexor)

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m a 30 year old male already suffering from hairloss. I was thinking of starting to take antidepressants, but I don’t want to take a drug that will accelerate my already natural hairloss. Has anyone experienced hairloss using the following drugs: 1. Fluvoxamine (Luvox) 2. Fluoxetine (Prozac) 3. Sertraline (Zoloft) 4. Paroxetine (Paxil) 5. Citalopram (Celexa) 6. Clomipramine (Anafranil) 7. Venlafaxine (Effexor)

Shave your head. It’s the *in* thing to do anyway. Lots of girls are liking the "Mr. Clean" look nowadays.

Response:

I’m a 30 year old male already suffering from hairloss. I was thinking of starting to take antidepressants, but I don’t want to take a drug that will accelerate my already natural hairloss. Has anyone experienced hairloss using the following drugs: 3. Sertraline (Zoloft)

No 4. Paroxetine (Paxil)

No 7. Venlafaxine (Effexor)

No Don’t know about the others (yet) Monkeyboy ***risk all, go extreme***

Response:

I’m a 30 year old male already suffering from hairloss. I was thinking of starting to take antidepressants, but I don’t want to take a drug that will accelerate my already natural hairloss. Has anyone experienced hairloss using the following drugs: 1. Fluvoxamine (Luvox) 2. Fluoxetine (Prozac) 3. Sertraline (Zoloft) 4. Paroxetine (Paxil) 5. Citalopram (Celexa) 6. Clomipramine (Anafranil) 7. Venlafaxine (Effexor)

Response:

Question:

I have tappered down my Effexor dose (with Doctor supervision, over ~ 2 months, from 75 mg XR, once daily) to the lowest I can get, which is 37.5 mg, which I take in the morning.  Suprisinlgy with it’s short half life, I seem to feel no withdrawl effects by the end of the day. However, now my dose is zero, and I think, after 24 hours, I began to feel some withdrawl effects.  It’s best described (by others) as a brain zap (a bit like vertigo).  It seems not an uncommon effect.  I have s light headache, some fatigue, but certianly not incapacitating.  But it does freak me out and I am battling not to take a tablet to make it go away.  I went on AD when I had some health issues.  Freaky things happening to my body don’t help me very much. I have only been Effexor free for 48 h, it does seem to be getting a little worse.  Can anyone suggest how long I need to stick it out  ? One week ?  One month ?  It seems to vary person to person, but a guide would be good. My Doc has no advice on this. Appreciated, RDJ

Response:

You did a good taper-down, but effexor is notoriously hell to wash-out. 10 days to 2 weeks is the norm. This is a stupid suggestion, but I was helped by using Thera-flu (or the generic versions)…you know, those hot lemon-flavored antihistamine thingies? Jim M.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have tappered down my Effexor dose (with Doctor supervision, over ~ 2 months, from 75 mg XR, once daily) to the lowest I can get, which is 37.5 mg, which I take in the morning.  Suprisinlgy with it’s short half life, I seem to feel no withdrawl effects by the end of the day. However, now my dose is zero, and I think, after 24 hours, I began to feel some withdrawl effects.  It’s best described (by others) as a brain zap (a bit like vertigo).  It seems not an uncommon effect.  I have s light headache, some fatigue, but certianly not incapacitating.  But it does freak me out and I am battling not to take a tablet to make it go away.  I went on AD when I had some health issues.  Freaky things happening to my body don’t help me very much. I have only been Effexor free for 48 h, it does seem to be getting a little worse.  Can anyone suggest how long I need to stick it out  ? One week ?  One month ?  It seems to vary person to person, but a guide would be good. My Doc has no advice on this. Appreciated, RDJ

Response:

Thanks for the reply.  Unfortunately, I couldn’t hack the withdrawl and took a tab.  Bad thing is, I felt better within an hour.  I was hoping waht I was feeling was unrelated to withdrawl, maybe juat a vrius or something.  I am now taking 37.5 mg every second day.  By the end of the second day, I start to feel the withdrawl.  I intend to do this for a week or so to get to know what thw withdrawl feels like, so I am less freaked out by it. In Australia, 37.5 mg seems to be the lowest dose available, according to my Doc.  I am not confident of tablet splitting. The lemon things are around.   Do you think it’s the anti-histamnine that does the job ? You did a good taper-down, but effexor is notoriously hell to wash-out. 10 days to 2 weeks is the norm. This is a stupid suggestion, but I was helped by using Thera-flu (or the generic versions)…you know, those hot lemon-flavored antihistamine thingies? Jim M.

[snip]

Response:

6 months or so ago my pdoc tried weaning me off effexor. From 150mg on down…when I hit 37.5 I started withrawal. Dizzy, headache, felt like I was walkin sidewys, brain zaps, nausea. I was put on Wellbuterin. I eventually got  totally off. AAAHHHH I called my pdoc crying just having a fit becase I vomited twice. The depression was awaful. I had forgotten how disgusting depression was. Waves of major depression. I did use some benedryl which did help some. So he put me back on Effexor. I am on lithium, lamictal, effexor, ativan and restoril. In my out of mind state I was crying, "with all the drugs I am on how can this happen??!" just crying a way. First he tried clinical terms….forget it, I barely knew where I was. So he put it to me like this, " You have a car, it has a body, wheels and an engine also a steering wheel. You can have all that but, if you do not have the  key you cannot start the car you aren’t going anywhere. Effexor is one of your keys. If you do not have it with your other meds you do not receive what your brain needs." Good luck with your effexor. When I was put back on I felt so much better. maridee

*

Response:

Question:

Risa, Diet isn’t my problem right now.  I fell on my knee in November and tore the cartilage so I have not been able to do any exercise at all.  But I have maintained my weight (210 lbs). I’m hoping to have something done soon so that I can get back to at least going for walks.  I’ve been practically housebound with this.  I can’t even swim with this, so once it’s fixed I’m hoping with the wellbutrin and better diet that i’ve had to go to since being housebound that the exercise will start to help the pounds to drop. Keep the fingers crossed Lesleyanne Visit my homepage at http://home.thezone.net/~chech * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

In article <0258552c.332fc…@usw-ex0102-015.remarq.com

, La

Chech <la_chechNOlaS…@my-deja.com.invalid

wrote: Risa, Diet isn’t my problem right now.  I fell on my knee in November and tore the cartilage so I have not been able to do any

exercise

at all.

Did I forget to mention that I lost the weight without exercising? I had an infected toe at the time and could hardly walk myself. Sorry about your knee. I’ve had 6 knee surgeries so far and I can relate. (I played ice hockey in college. It’s murder on the knees.) Risa Be curious always! For knowledge will not acquire you, you must acquire it. * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

Risa, Ah ha!  What is this diet? Is there a website? Lesleyanne Visit my homepage at http://home.thezone.net/~chech * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

In article <1e25befc.d62d6…@usw-ex0102-015.remarq.com

, La

Chech <la_chechNOlaS…@my-deja.com.invalid

wrote: Risa, Ah ha!  What is this diet? Is there a website?

Sort of. It’s just the publisher hawking the book. http://www.avonbooks.com/avon_user/book.html?book_id=36414 Risa Be curious always! For knowledge will not acquire you, you must acquire it. * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

Effexor withdrawal got me into a whole lot of trouble – throwing up all the time, sick as a dog.  Switching to Zoloft was a relief while it lasted, but now I’m on good old Prozac.  It’s that same old bugaboo about everyone’s body chemistry being different…

Response:

"M. Allison" wrote:

Hello all,   My doctor has given me two weeks’ worth of Effexor XR 37.5 mg.  Does anyone have any experience with this SSRI/SNRI?  I’ve been doing some searching online, and I’m looking for personal experiences as well as any contraindications for Effexor and antibiotics. TIA, Mellissa — **Insert Witty Sig File Here** —

I take 225 mg of effexor every day it is the only medicine that has accually worked. I have taken alot of others.   I have had no problem taking effexor with antibiotics. any more question email back

Response:

I’m now on the max daily dose of effexor it’s the second time I’ve been on it. I have not experienced any side effects but remember when I came off it the last time I was ill for 3 days. I’m not looking forward to a repeat of that though. Pete

Response:

Hello,   I just wanted to thank everyone who responded to my question – you’ve set aside some of my concerns.  I’ve been taking it for 6 days now, and while I don’t notice a significant change, I am feeling more motivated.  I hope this continues. Mellissa — **Insert Witty Sig File Here** Get the lead out to reply. Visit my webpage! http://users.uniserve.com/~muddles

Response:

I’m now on the max daily dose of effexor it’s the second time I’ve been on it. I have not experienced any side effects but remember when I came off it

What exactly is the ‘max dose?’  I am on 300 mg’s a day – 150 two times daily. Best, Luanne

Response:

LuanneP wrote in message

I’m now on the max daily dose of effexor it’s the second time I’ve been on it. I have not experienced any side effects but remember when I came off

it

What exactly is the ‘max dose?’  I am on 300 mg’s a day – 150 two times

daily.

Back when I was on it I was getting 375 a day (half in the am, half in the pm, and it was combined with Knolopin (sp?)) They told me then that it was the max therapeutic dose at the time.  Weather or not that has changed in the past few years is beyond me. I cannot comment further because I was taught if you cant say something nice, dont say anything at all. *LOL*  My experiences with psych drugs were not positive. Kate Minola How did it get so late so soon? It’s night before it’s afternoon. December is here before it’s June. My goodness how the time has flewn. How did it get so late so soon?”                          -Dr. Seuss

Response:

you are correct.  the max dose of effexor is still 375 mg a day.

Response:

Hello all,   My doctor has given me two weeks’ worth of Effexor XR 37.5 mg.  Does anyone have any experience with this SSRI/SNRI?  I’ve been doing some searching online, and I’m looking for personal experiences as well as any contraindications for Effexor and antibiotics. TIA, Mellissa — **Insert Witty Sig File Here** —

Response:

Mellissa, I started taking effexor after weaning abit off Prozac.  I had absolutely no side effects that I can think of.  Now, it’s possible that having been on prozac so long, my body was use to the drug, as effexor is similar to prozac.  But when I switched from Effexor to Wellbutrin I was out for the count for almost a week with fever, nausea, headaches etc.  They did wear off. Everyone is different.  Effexor is one of the drugs touted as being helpful for PTSD and while I gained weight on prozac, my weight stabilized on effexor.  I’m on wellbutrin trying to lose the 60 lbs I put on while on prozac. http://www.mentalhealth.com/ This site can give you a great deal of information of the medications include adverse effects etc.   As for anti-biotics, I have taken them several times while taking SSRIs and been told that there’s no problems with combining the two. Take Care Lesleyanne Visit my homepage at http://home.thezone.net/~chech * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

In article <ilKy4.18260$Dv1.206…@news1.rdc1.bc.home.com

, "M.

Allison" <mudd…@holycow.com

wrote: Hello all,  My doctor has given me two weeks’ worth of Effexor XR 37.5

mg.  Does

anyone have any experience with this SSRI/SNRI?  I’ve been

doing some

searching online, and I’m looking for personal experiences as

well as any

contraindications for Effexor and antibiotics.

I’ve been taking Effexor XR for about 8 months now. It’s the best med I’ve had to date other than the Ritalin. One of the biggest side effects I’ve had to date is increased blood pressure from the Effexor. At the dose you’re taking it shouldn’t be a problem, but if your doctor raises the dose, keep an eye on it. I had to lower my dose to keep the blood pressure at a safe level. http://www.onlinepsych.com/public/search/medsrcfr.htm http://www.healthtouch.com/level1/p_dri.htm These are the two sites I have for information about psych medications. Good Luck. Risa Be curious always! For knowledge will not acquire you, you must acquire it. * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

My doctor has given me two weeks’ worth of Effexor XR 37.5 mg.  Does anyone have any experience with this SSRI/SNRI?

That’s the dosage I started on although now I take Effexor XR 150 mg twice daily.  It works for me.  I have heard that going off of it HAS to be a gradual thing because the side effects are not too nice. Best, Luanne

Response:

But when I switched from Effexor to Wellbutrin I was out for the count for almost a week with fever, nausea, headaches etc.  They did wear off

Lesley, Didn’t your doctor make you cut down your dosage gradually?  That’s what my sister did when she "graduated" to another drug. I have heard a lot of bad things about the side effects regarding "Effexor Withdrawal." Best, Luanne

Response:

In article <0a85f304.6097a…@usw-ex0102-015.remarq.com

, La

Chech <la_chechNOlaS…@my-deja.com.invalid

wrote:

(snip)

I’m on wellbutrin trying to lose the 60 lbs I put on while on prozac.

I’m using the Atkins’ diet. I lost 20 lbs. the first month. It’s not something that I would do forever (even though that’s what he recommends) but it’s been more successful than anything else I’ve tried. Email if you want to talk about this more. Risa Be curious always! For knowledge will not acquire you, you must acquire it. * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

Question:

Sam I was on Zoloft for 6 years. It gave me back my life. Don’t be afraid of it. You only hear the negatives , never the success stories. Be well.  Bob

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I guess I would do well to tell you a little bit about myself… -snipped the background- So I’ve been going to my doctor and seeing a psychologist. My GP has been trying to get me on medication for months. I take 2mg of Xanax to help me sleep (rather unsuccessfuly) and the Zoloft now. My psychologist resigned and moved interstate so I had to go to another one…it was hideous. So unpleasant. We argued for an hour. He said that I wasn’t depressed I was just very lazy and that perhaps I wasn’t as good as I think I am. I was shattered. So upset. This was about a month or so ago. I have been refusing to see one ever since. My GP wants me to see a psychiatrist but now I’m frightened of such negative judgements, I’m refusing to go. Does Zoloft only work in conjunction with therapy? Finding a good therapist that is a good match for you can often be more difficult and emotion/time consuming than finding a useful medication. And for some people all they need is the medication.  Everyone is different.  But one thing is for sure, medication doesn’t work as well in conjunction with a *shitty* therapist!!!   Don’t give up on getting good help.  Rely on your gut.  If one therapist is a jerk, just remember that they are only human.  Look for another one. Good luck.  Maybe keep us posted (so to speak) on your efforts?? Sincerely Stewart PS.  Your GP *can* prescribe zoloft for you, tho he/she *may* not want to do so, and may prefer to defer to a specialist for that.  If you really want to try an antidepressant and you really don’t want to talk with a psychiatrist to get it, you can find another GP who might be more willing to prescribe it for you.  Most GP’s hand out zoloft like it was candy (not that I personally think that is such a good thing, but it’s there….) — The Metaphor Man  *and*  The Great Defender of the Self (remove the SPAMBLOCK) Please send me an e-mail copy of your posted response.

Well, first of all finding a therapist who "fits" is important.  From my own experience, I was severely depressed for for years and saw a therapist for three of those four years.  We did absolutely no ‘therapy’ because I was too depressed to actually talk, but he cared about me, helped me have flashes where I almost believed I wasn’t evil – the depression was making me think so.  I think I would have died if it weren’t for my therapists support.   Angela

Response:

I guess I would do well to tell you a little bit about myself…

-snipped the background- So I’ve been going to my doctor and seeing a psychologist. My GP has been trying to get me on medication for months. I take 2mg of Xanax to help me sleep (rather unsuccessfuly) and the Zoloft now. My psychologist resigned and moved interstate so I had to go to another one…it was hideous. So unpleasant. We argued for an hour. He said that I wasn’t depressed I was just very lazy and that perhaps I wasn’t as good as I think I am. I was shattered. So upset. This was about a month or so ago. I have been refusing to see one ever since. My GP wants me to see a psychiatrist but now I’m frightened of such negative judgements, I’m refusing to go. Does Zoloft only work in conjunction with therapy?

Finding a good therapist that is a good match for you can often be more difficult and emotion/time consuming than finding a useful medication. And for some people all they need is the medication.  Everyone is different.  But one thing is for sure, medication doesn’t work as well in conjunction with a *shitty* therapist!!!   Don’t give up on getting good help.  Rely on your gut.  If one therapist is a jerk, just remember that they are only human.  Look for another one. Good luck.  Maybe keep us posted (so to speak) on your efforts?? Sincerely Stewart PS.  Your GP *can* prescribe zoloft for you, tho he/she *may* not want to do so, and may prefer to defer to a specialist for that.  If you really want to try an antidepressant and you really don’t want to talk with a psychiatrist to get it, you can find another GP who might be more willing to prescribe it for you.  Most GP’s hand out zoloft like it was candy (not that I personally think that is such a good thing, but it’s there….) — The Metaphor Man  *and*  The Great Defender of the Self (remove the SPAMBLOCK) Please send me an e-mail copy of your posted response.

Response:

Hi Stewart, Thanks for taking the time to write to me. I do appreciate it a whole lot. I guess I would do well to tell you a little bit about myself… I am a 19yo university student. I began uni. this year, enrolled in Arts/Music. I play classical piano. I’ve been very successful at it and was given the best teacher imaginable. he only accepted three students in the entire country. At the time I was over the moon, but very soon expectation kicked in. Success equals demise. Every time I find success, the expectations associated with it make me push myself away from it. I lasted a semester, withdrew from the Music component. People actually screamed at me. It was a hard decision. Music has always been what I do. I went to a specialist secondary school for music and dance students so it’s been my life for a long time. So that left me in Arts. I was studying Philosophy and Literature. I stopped going about 2 months ago and have failed the lot. Everything. Expectations! Always told how well I’m going to do, so I lash back against it. I’ve failed the lot. Everything. Anyway, so i’ve had a lot of time on my hands… and have been doing a lot of accompanying. Opera is my love. I am working with 4 fantastic singers at the moment. Only been doing it for a couple of months and already the expectations are kicking in. I’ve been too successful again. This really really bothers me. Positive comments from important people left, right and centre. Invited to play in front of 15 000 people on X-mas eve. And I’m not even studying music!!! So now that I’m succeeding at it, I’m losing interest….along with everything else *sigh*. I think perhaps I’m scared of success. If you are successful at something, failing at it becomes so much worse. So I’ve been going to my doctor and seeing a psychologist. My GP has been trying to get me on medication for months. I take 2mg of Xanax to help me sleep (rather unsuccessfuly) and the Zoloft now. My psychologist resigned and moved interstate so I had to go to another one…it was hideous. So unpleasant. We argued for an hour. He said that I wasn’t depressed I was just very lazy and that perhaps I wasn’t as good as I think I am. I was shattered. So upset. This was about a month or so ago. I have been refusing to see one ever since. My GP wants me to see a psychiatrist but now I’m frightened of such negative judgements, I’m refusing to go. Does Zoloft only work in conjunction with therapy? Hope to hear from you soon. Keep well and try to be happy. Sam

Response:

Hi everyone, Sam here again. I tried and tried to get myself through depression without drugs…but finally admitted defeat on Wednesday. I’m now taking Zoloft, 50mg for a week then up to 100mg. I’ve been rather alarmed at the negative response I’ve been reading online about the drug. I’m sure you’re all bored to tears by the topic, but could we please discuss Zoloft for my benefit??? I would really appreciate it *ingratiating smile* Thanks Sam

Sam, I was one of the people that was posting about negative side effects from Zoloft.  But, the side effects I was having (it gave me really bad agitation and anxiety and screwed up my thinking even more than it was screwed up from the depression alone), are actually very rare side-effects for Zoloft.  Many people have had good results from this drug, and it’s actually one of the drugs that causes the least amount of side effects in most people.  So, I would try it, and see if it works for YOU.  If it doesn’t, you can always try something else.  Good luck! persephone — "It

Question:

–                             Rational Negativism:                A Divergent Theory of Emotional Disorder Objective: To account for self-worth related emotion (i.e., needs for    love, acceptance, moral integrity, recognition, achievement,    purpose, meaning, etc.) and emotional disorder (e.g., depression,    suicide, etc.) within the context of an evolutionary scenario; i.e., to    synthesize natural science and the humanities; i.e., to answer the    question:  ’Why is there a species of naturally selected organism    expending huge quantities of effort and energy on the survivalistically    bizarre non-physical objective of  maximizing self-worth?’ Observation: The species in which rationality is most developed is    also the one in which individuals have the greatest difficulty in    maintaining an adequate sense of self-worth, often going to    extraordinary lengths in doing so (e.g., Evel Knievel, celibate monks,    self-endangering Greenpeacers, etc.). Hypothesis: Rationality is antagonistic to psychocentric stability (i.e.,    maintaining an adequate sense of self-worth). Synopsis: In much the manner reasoning allows for the subordination    of lower emotional concerns and values (pain, fear, anger, sex, etc.)    to more global concerns (concern for the self as a whole), so too,    these more global concerns and values can themselves become    reevaluated and subordinated to other more global, more objective    considerations. And if this is so, and assuming that emotional    disorder emanates from a deficiency in self-worth resulting from    precisely this sort of experiencially based reevaluation, then it can    reasonably be construed as a natural malfunction resulting from    one’s rational faculties functioning a tad too well. Normalcy and Disorder: Assuming this is correct, then some    explanation for the relative "normalcy" of most individuals would    seem necessary. This is accomplished simply by postulating    different levels or degrees of consciousness.  From this perspective,    emotional disorder would then be construed as a valuative affliction    resulting from an increase in semantic content in the engram indexed    by the linguistic expression, "I am insignificant", which all persons of    common sense "know" to be true, but which the "emotionally    disturbed" have come to "realize", through abstract thought,    devaluing experience, etc. Implications: So-called "free will" and the incessant activity presumed    to emanate from it is simply the insatiable appetite we all have for    self-significating experience which, in turn, is simply nature’s way of    attempting to counter the objectifying influences of our rational    faculties. This also implies that the engine in the first "free-thinking"    artifact is probably going to be a diesel.    "Another simile would be an atomic pile of less than critical size: an    injected idea is to correspond to a neutron entering the pile from    without. Each such neutron will cause a certain disturbance which    eventually dies away. If, however, the size of the pile is sufficiently    increased, the disturbance caused by such an incoming neutron will    very likely go on and on increasing until the whole pile is destroyed.    Is there a corresponding phenomenon for minds?" (A. M. Turing). Additional Implications: Since the explanation I have proposed    amounts to the contention that the most rational species    (presumably) is beginning to exhibit signs of transcending the    formalism of nature’s fixed objective (accomplished in man via    intentional self-concern, i.e., the prudence program) it can reasonably    be construed as providing evidence and argumentation in support of    Lucas/Godel. Not only does this imply that the aforementioned    artifact probably won’t be a computer, but it would also explain why a    question such as "Can Human Irrationality Be Experimentally    Demonstrated?" (Cohen, 1981) has led to controversy, in that it    presupposes the possibility of a discrete (formalizable) answer to a    question which can only be addressed in comparative    (non-formalizable) terms (e.g. X is more rational than Y, the norm, etc.).      Along these same lines, the theory can also be construed as an    endorsement or metajustification for comparative approaches in    epistemology (explanationism, plausiblism, etc.)    "The short answer [to Lucas/Godel and more recently, Penrose]     is that, although it is established that there are limitations to the    powers of any particular machine, it has only been stated, without    any sort of proof, that no such limitations apply to human intellect "    (A. M. Turing).    "So even if mathematicians are superb cognizers of mathematical    truth, and even if there is no algorithm, practical or otherwise,    for cognizing mathematical truth, it does not follow that the power    of mathematicians to cognize mathematical truth is not entirely    explicable in terms of their brain’s executing an algorithm.  Not    an algorhithm for intuiting mathematical truth —  we can suppose that    Penrose [via Godel] has proved that there could be no such thing.      What would the algorithm be for, then?  Most plausibly it would be an    algorithm — one of very many — for trying to stay alive … " (D. C.    Dennett). Oops!  Sorry!  Wrong again, old bean.      "My ruling passion is the love of literary fame" (David Hume).    "I have often felt as though I had inherited all the defiance and all the    passions with which our ancestors defended their Temple and could    gladly sacrifice my life for one great moment in history" (Sigmund    Freud).    "He, too [Ludwig Wittgenstein], suffered from depressions and for long    periods considered killing himself because he considered his life    worthless, but the stubbornness inherited from his father may have    helped him to survive" (Hans Sluga).    "The inquest [Alan Turing's] established that it was suicide.  The    evidence was perfunctory, not for any irregular reason, but because    it was so transparently clear a case" (Andrew Hodges) —                Phil Roberts, Jr. Feelings of Worthlessness and So-Called Cognitive Science         http://www.geocities.com/Athens/5476

Response:

Perhaps we could start with defining self-worth, and considering evolutionary roots leading to it, or how it is seen (or not seen) in lower animals. Below is a suggestion of the meaning of "self worth."  There are needs for certain aspects of belonginness.  Perhaps self-worth would include an assessment of the probability of their being met.  Perhaps this would also include an assessment of one’s "deservingness" of their being met, or in other words, an absence of shame or guilt. We might also consider that there may be brain based templates for such things as shame or guilt, such that if they are stimulated, or their conditions met, an unpleasant feeling is generated, which has the effect of modifying behavior. (more)

 :–  :                            Rational Negativism:  :               A Divergent Theory of Emotional Disorder  :  :Objective: To account for self-worth related emotion (i.e., needs for  :   love, acceptance, moral integrity, recognition, achievement,  :   purpose, meaning, etc.) and emotional disorder (e.g., depression,  :   suicide, etc.) within the context of an evolutionary scenario; i.e.,  :to  :   synthesize natural science and the humanities; i.e., to answer the  :   question:  ’Why is there a species of naturally selected organism  :   expending huge quantities of effort and energy on the  :survivalistically  :   bizarre non-physical objective of  maximizing self-worth?’  : If we view nature films of animals which live in groups, we find the existence of a heirarchy in many of them.  Often that heirarchy is constantly shifting, and is frequently re-ordered.  Sometimes, an individual is on the low end so often, he becomes a permanently low-status member.  He is fearful, and doesn’t even dare to challenge a higher-status member. Since the capacity for this behavior is species-wide, there must be templates for those behaviors involved.  Certainly, one can not impose them on reptiles, or solitary animals like certain cats.  Coincidentally, those seem to be the same animals which are prone to domestication. What are those templates?  How about feelings, such as shame, guilt, fear, a feeling of "less than," of being impressed with another who is "more than." In other words, feelings of a lack of self-worth.  And why do some individuals strive to change the pecking order?  Because those feelings are unpleasant, and they wish for them to be lost.  The way to lose those feelings is to increase one’s status, and with an absence of shame and fear, one has a greater feeling of self-worth. Viewing this in an evolutionary way, why would it happen?  For one thing, a group is more efficient in meeting its needs if it is organized.  For another, lower status enhances cooperation.  And it may be that the higher status individuals breed more often, passing along the genes of the stronger members of the group more frequently than those of the weaker ones. Thus, it is advantageous that the lower ones should strive for higher status, as a test of their potential for ancestry of a future group.  And it may be advantageous if the bolder ones lead the group in defending against intruders. Consequently, we have negative feelings and if not opposite feelings, then at least the absence of the negative ones. There is also an element of confidence.  With confidence, one feels that his behavior is likely to produce a desired result.  And he feels that he has the personal ability to carry out the behaviors.   Consequently, he is more likely to act when he is unable to know the outcome, than would a less confident individual.  Feelings of self-worth seem to be necessary for one to have confidence, and energy to carry out a plan. With the problem of bipolar disorder, this mechanism seems to go astray. The person attains such high confidence, he gambles on high risk propositions.  He has the energy to do a lot of work, and may be aggressive without purpose, as if he were at the top of a pack. Then he swings toward the opposite end, and lacks all confidence, lacks all energy, as if he were at the very bottom.  Is it possible that bipolar disorder means that existing templates for feelings and behavior are being triggered without environmental information which generally does that?  :Observation: The species in which rationality is most developed is  :   also the one in which individuals have the greatest difficulty in  :   maintaining an adequate sense of self-worth, often going to  :   extraordinary lengths in doing so (e.g., Evel Knievel, celibate  :monks,  self-endangering Greenpeacers, etc.).  : We have imposed culture upon our biological nature.  Where other creatures might be satisfied to find a place within a small pack, humans overlay their learning on this impulse, and seek through displays of wealth or education to gain the esteem of others, to bolster their self-esteem.  They may be holier than thou, humbler than thou, stronger or more beautiful, wherever they might find their niche.  Their learning may communicate to them that better means more powerful or more envied, or that better means more right.  :Hypothesis: Rationality is antagonistic to psychocentric stability  :(i.e.,  :   maintaining an adequate sense of self-worth).  :  :Synopsis: In much the manner reasoning allows for the subordination  :   of lower emotional concerns and values (pain, fear, anger, sex, etc.)  :   to more global concerns (concern for the self as a whole), so too,  :   these more global concerns and values can themselves become  :   reevaluated and subordinated to other more global, more objective  :   considerations. And if this is so, and assuming that emotional  :   disorder emanates from a deficiency in self-worth resulting from  :   precisely this sort of experiencially based reevaluation, then it can  :   reasonably be construed as a natural malfunction resulting from  :   one’s rational faculties functioning a tad too well.  : Negative information can cause negative feelings, but negative feelings can also cause all information to seem negative.  There is also a theory that depression has an evolutionary survival function. There was an observation of I think, some perigrene falcons, which mate for life.  The female did not return to the nest, and the male waited for her until he starved to death.  It was concluded that this was not helpful to the species, and therefore, depression was a fluke of nature. However, what would have happened if he had eventually concluded that she was not returning, and he was hungry and needed to find a meal?  Possibly the behavior of mating for life would have been weakened, which is connected to the survival of that species.  So if that happened a lot, and such birds passed along their genes and increased in number, the behavior may have diminished or disappeared, together with its survival function. So a very strong motivation to be loyal to the partner to the very end, possibly contributes to the survival of that species.  Consequently, depression is not without its function there (assuming the bird was depressed, of course.)  :Normalcy and Disorder: Assuming this is correct, then some  :   explanation for the relative "normalcy" of most individuals would  :   seem necessary. This is accomplished simply by postulating  :   different levels or degrees of consciousness.  From this perspective,  :   emotional disorder would then be construed as a valuative affliction  :   resulting from an increase in semantic content in the engram indexed  :   by the linguistic expression, "I am insignificant", which all persons  :of  :   common sense "know" to be true, but which the "emotionally  :   disturbed" have come to "realize", through abstract thought,  :   devaluing experience, etc.  :  :Implications: So-called "free will" and the incessant activity presumed  :   to emanate from it is simply the insatiable appetite we all have for  :   self-significating experience which, in turn, is simply nature’s way  :of  :   attempting to counter the objectifying influences of our rational  :   faculties. This also implies that the engine in the first  :"free-thinking"  :   artifact is probably going to be a diesel.  : Huh?  :  :   "Another simile would be an atomic pile of less than critical size:  :an  :   injected idea is to correspond to a neutron entering the pile from  :   without. Each such neutron will cause a certain disturbance which  :   eventually dies away. If, however, the size of the pile is  :sufficiently  :   increased, the disturbance caused by such an incoming neutron will  :   very likely go on and on increasing until the whole pile is  :destroyed.  :   Is there a corresponding phenomenon for minds?" (A. M. Turing).  :  :  :Additional Implications: Since the explanation I have proposed  :   amounts to the contention that the most rational species  :   (presumably) is beginning to exhibit signs of transcending the  :   formalism of nature’s fixed objective (accomplished in man via  :   intentional self-concern, i.e., the prudence program) it can  :reasonably  :   be construed as providing evidence and argumentation in support of  :   Lucas/Godel. Not only does this imply that the aforementioned  :   artifact probably won’t be a computer, but it would also explain why  :a  :   question such as "Can Human Irrationality Be Experimentally  :   Demonstrated?" (Cohen, 1981) has led to controversy, in that it  :   presupposes the possibility of a discrete (formalizable) answer to a  :   question which can only be addressed in comparative  :   (non-formalizable) terms (e.g. X is more rational than Y, the norm,  :etc.).  : There are some games, including the prisoner’s dilemma, which generally result in irrationality.  There is also a bird which has a behavior of tearing down its neighbor’s nest.  The bird has several choices.  1.) Spend all his time guarding what part of his nest is built, 2.) Look for new … read more »

Response: