Question:

It could be the propellant you are having a problem with or the medication myself.  I had problems with aerobid inhaler, it made me feel worse.  My doctor switched me to azmacort and I am free sailing now.  

Response:

Actually, to me the Steroid works best out of my three different types of medications, keeping my asthma at the minimal attacks. — Aaron Kennell – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

It could be the propellant you are having a problem with or the medication myself.  I had problems with aerobid inhaler, it made me feel worse.  My doctor switched me to azmacort and I am free sailing now.  

A few years ago, my pulmonologist put me on Becloforte. After a few months, trying to inhale it was making me caugh with the result that I was not inhaling it at all or almost. He then switched me to Pulmicort and I had no problem. I had maybe, he said, become allergic to the gas propellant… Yves Dussault

Response:

Actually, to me the Steroid works best out of my three different types of medications, keeping my asthma at the minimal attacks.

If you had tried breathing thechniques you would also have less steroids, and perhaps no asthma attacks.. |-| /- |-< |-< ||| – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — Aaron Kennell

Response:

Question:

What say you all???

I say all things in moderation. I don’t see how it could be any worse than breathing while driving a car, or drinking treated water, drinking regular coke or coffee, or getting a measles shot. .. Bridget M. Atkins maintenance for life.

Response:

Hello All, I have read in Adkin’s books about Splenda which is a artificial sweetner.  I have heard some folks swear by it because they can cook with it. I live overseas on an Air Force Base and I was shocked that we had it so I got some.  I only have it maybe twice a day with my caffine free coffee or my green tea.  That is the ONLY sugur I have used in weeks now. When you use that little you might try real sugar and see if you can handle it. To me Splenda seems too processed and unnatural.

And your statement "seems" like unscientific garbage. Sugar is  processed from beets or canes and then further processed into Splenda. Wonderful things happen when you don’t eat as much sweet anymore and I  think using something "safe" like Splenda to sweeten might make you use more and thus will keep you addicted to sweetness, thus ruining the experience of real food. If you use sugar you know you have to limit your intake.

Don’t listen to this dumbass.  Use the Splenda, and DON’T use sugar. –Bryan

Response:

I say, neither, but rather, like most things, some good and some evil.   Priscilla — Minutus cantorum, minutus balorum, minutus carborata descendum pantorum.   (thanks be to topfive.com)

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello All, I have read in Adkin’s books about Splenda which is a artificial sweetner.  I have heard some folks swear by it because they can cook with it. I live overseas on an Air Force Base and I was shocked that we had it so I got some.  I only have it maybe twice a day with my caffine free coffee or my green tea.  That is the ONLY sugur I have used in weeks now. When you use that little you might try real sugar and see if you can handle it. To me Splenda seems too processed and unnatural. And your statement "seems" like unscientific garbage. Sugar is  processed from beets or canes and then further processed into Splenda. Wonderful things happen when you don’t eat as much sweet anymore and I  think using something "safe" like Splenda to sweeten might make you use more and thus will keep you addicted to sweetness, thus ruining the experience of real food. If you use sugar you know you have to limit your intake. Don’t listen to this dumbass.  Use the Splenda, and DON’T use sugar.

Geez, what’s your problem?  I think what he said makes a lot of sense. Priscilla — Minutus cantorum, minutus balorum, minutus carborata descendum pantorum.   (thanks be to topfive.com)

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello All, I have read in Adkin’s books about Splenda which is a artificial sweetner.  I have heard some folks swear by it because they can cook with it. I live overseas on an Air Force Base and I was shocked that we had it so I got some.  I only have it maybe twice a day with my caffine free coffee or my green tea.  That is the ONLY sugur I have used in weeks now. When you use that little you might try real sugar and see if you can handle it. To me Splenda seems too processed and unnatural. And your statement "seems" like unscientific garbage. Sugar is  processed from beets or canes and then further processed into Splenda. Wonderful things happen when you don’t eat as much sweet anymore and I think using something "safe" like Splenda to sweeten might make you use more and thus will keep you addicted to sweetness, thus ruining the experience of real food. If you use sugar you know you have to limit your intake. Don’t listen to this dumbass.  Use the Splenda, and DON’T use sugar. Geez, what’s your problem?  I think what he said makes a lot of sense.

i think so too.  i can handle small amounts of sugar – a tablespoon of organic sugar or maple syrup in my oatmeal doesn’t send me over the moon with cravings.  i’m one of those annoying people who prefers "real" food over "artificial," so for my purposes small amounts of sugar work just fine.  

Response:

i think so too.  i can handle small amounts of sugar – a tablespoon of organic sugar or maple syrup in my oatmeal doesn’t send me over the moon with cravings.  i’m one of those annoying people who prefers "real" food over "artificial," so for my purposes small amounts of sugar work just fine.  

My summertime morning iced tea tastes putrid to me with only artificial sweetener in it, so I use some sugar and some fake sweetener and am getting used to having it be not nearly as sweet as I used to drink it.   In cool weather my mug of hot tea in the morning has one level teaspoon of real sugar in it.  It doesn’t taste right otherwise.  One teaspoon doesn’t seem to spike me much, and sugar is a much safer carb to eat than, say, potatoes. Priscilla, T2, good control with LC — Minutus cantorum, minutus balorum, minutus carborata descendum pantorum.   (thanks be to topfive.com)

Response:

I agree completely, but have never been able to word it as well, Archon.  I use a little sugar in my hot beverages and control the amount very carefully.  I do not seek to replace all manner of sweets and carbs through articifical means and don’t feel prohibited or cheated because the basic lo carb diet is stabilizing enough to have banished my former cravings. Your reply is particularly timely because I was about to go shopping for Stevia today even though I’m having no hitch in my weight loss with the small of amounts (as compared to before) of sugar I’m consuming.  What do you think of Stevia, btw? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – When you use that little you might try real sugar and see if you can handle it. To me Splenda seems too processed and unnatural. Sugar is processed from beets or canes and then further processed into Splenda. Wonderful things happen when you don’t eat as much sweet anymore and I think using something "safe" like Splenda to sweeten might make you use more and thus will keep you addicted to sweetness, thus ruining the experience of real food. If you use sugar you know you have to limit your intake.

Response:

Great post, Michael.  I’ve been wondering about Splenda myself and what you said made a lot of sense.  I for one do not trust everything the government says is safe.  Prime example is a drug I’ve been trying to get off of for 2 months now.  Just a "harmless" antidepressant. Noone told the millions of people using it that it would be addictive and hell to get off of.  There are people all over the internet signing petitions to start a class action lawsuit against the drug company.  Anyway, I digress, but my point is that just because the government says Splenda is safe, imo, does not necessarily make it so. I’ve been reading a few things on it lately and it’s made me a little cautious of using it now. jmo

Nasty. See why I dislike medication? I wasn’t saying – have no expertice to do so – that Splenda is or may be harmful. Just that I don’t like the idea. Btw it does remind me about the margerine episode – replace butter with margerine. It’s fat altered so the body doesn’t recognize it as fat – like with Splenda it’s sugar altered so the body doesn’t recognize it as sugar. I prefer something the body knows what is and then just use less of it. — Michael Nielsen M.Sc.EE Music:   http://mp3.com/archon2 Website: http://www.archonia.dk

Response:

BTW, How many carbs in a teaspoon of sugar vs sugar substitutes? DC 187/174/155 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I say, neither, but rather, like most things, some good and some evil.   Priscilla

Response:

BTW, How many carbs in a teaspoon of sugar vs sugar substitutes?

A standard teaspoon (5 ml) sugar is 4 gram. — Michael Nielsen M.Sc.EE Music:   http://mp3.com/archon2 Website: http://www.archonia.dk

Response:

Don’t listen to this dumbass.  Use the Splenda, and DON’T use sugar.

Do you earn your living selling Splenda? If not, why so emotionally involved? — Michael Nielsen M.Sc.EE Music:   http://mp3.com/archon2 Website: http://www.archonia.dk

Response:

I agree completely, but have never been able to word it as well, Archon.  I use a little sugar in my hot beverages and control the amount very carefully.

A small teapsoon (5 gram) in my tea is too sweet for me (6 months ago I’d NEVER believe I would EVER say "it’s too sweet for me"!). I just use a squirt of heavy cream that gives a very pleasant mouth feel and satisfying effect and also sweetens it, smoothes the tannin, and produces a taste that kinda turns me on!   I do not seek to replace all manner of sweets and carbs through articifical means and don’t feel prohibited or cheated because the basic lo carb diet is stabilizing enough to have banished my former cravings.

One must beware of not becoming fanatic (see note) about it and treat oneself sometimes. And I find it more romantic and "healthy for the soul" to use natural things. I like some of the mottos for these diets: Don’t eat processed/refined foods, eat whole foods. I thinks it’s a shame that everything have to be so synthetic these days (I really hate those polyester shirts!) There’s medicine for the silliest things – I don’t have any drugs in the house – not even headache pills. When I was given a prescription for something silly I didn’t take it (if I was a doctor I’d say "get off all non critical medication, eat lowcarb, and buy some good inline skates and get out there and exercise". dealing with everythign with medicine weakens the body’s natural defence). And in my area I’m the one who’s least ill and sick – I saw a post theorizing that saturated fat may improve the immune system and I have always eaten huge amounts of whipped cream! My research is about improving performance in agriculture without using chemical means. Optimising fertilizer leaving no residual fertilizer in the soil, and minimizing need for toxins and finally leading to mechanical weeding. Note: Since I started this diet I’ve often been accused of being fanatic, though! I tell that I don’t deny myself of things, but the food I eat now is actually better. Last time I was called fanatic I could tell that I had just the day before felt like having good old-fashioned Danish pancakes (sweet crepes with raw cane sugar and strawberry jam). So I just made them – ate all I could eat (which was less than I used to be able to) and so I got my pancake fix (didn’t have any jam in the house so I used strawberries and whipped cream instead – so actually more lowcarb than I’d normally eat them!) Your reply is particularly timely because I was about to go shopping for Stevia today even though I’m having no hitch in my weight loss with the small of amounts (as compared to before) of sugar I’m consuming.  What do you think of Stevia, btw?

I’m not familiar with it – is it what used to be called Nutrasweet (which got banned in Denmark when I was a teenager)? — Michael Nielsen M.Sc.EE Music:   http://mp3.com/archon2 Website: http://www.archonia.dk

Response:

Many diabetics and LC`ers use them, I mean millions of us, are we all wrong and those two right?

so the millions of you that use it are either diabetic or overweight? hmmm…..

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Great post, Michael.  I’ve been wondering about Splenda myself and what you said made a lot of sense.  I for one do not trust everything the government says is safe.  Prime example is a drug I’ve been trying to get off of for 2 months now.  Just a "harmless" antidepressant.  Which antidepressant? — Mike Graham                  | Metalworker, rustic, part-time zealot. <http://www.metalmangler.com| First run on low-carb: 320lbs to 210lbs.            Restarted June 01/2003 – 245/236/not sure.                  DENIQUE DIAETAM EFFICACEM INVENI

Effexor.  Do a google search on Effexor withdrawals.  Thousands of people are suffering needlessly. ~~Lisa~~ 230/217/150 Started Atkins 06/04/03 Mark 10:26 ~ With God all things are possible.   The only thing worse then being alone is wishing you were.

Response:

Hi, Great post, Michael.  I’ve been wondering about Splenda myself and what you said made a lot of sense.  I for one do not trust everything the government says is safe.  Prime example is a drug I’ve been trying to get off of for 2 months now.  Just a "harmless" antidepressant.   Which antidepressant?

I’m guessing Paxil.  It’s got a bad rep for that sort of thing. Take care, Carmen

Response:

Hi Lisa, Great post, Michael.  I’ve been wondering about Splenda myself and what you said made a lot of sense.  I for one do not trust everything the government says is safe.  Prime example is a drug I’ve been trying to get off of for 2 months now.  Just a "harmless" antidepressant.  Which antidepressant? Effexor.  Do a google search on Effexor withdrawals.  Thousands of people are suffering needlessly.

I guessed wrong then.  I thought it was Paxil.  How did Effexor work with the depression? Take care, Carmen

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Lisa, Great post, Michael.  I’ve been wondering about Splenda myself and what you said made a lot of sense.  I for one do not trust everything the government says is safe.  Prime example is a drug I’ve been trying to get off of for 2 months now.  Just a "harmless" antidepressant.  Which antidepressant? Effexor.  Do a google search on Effexor withdrawals.  Thousands of people are suffering needlessly. I guessed wrong then.  I thought it was Paxil.  How did Effexor work with the depression? Take care, Carmen

Carmen, It did okay, but if I missed a dose by an hour or so the withdrawal symptoms were terrible.  I just couldn’t help thinking what this crap was doing to my body and my brain that I would react that way. I’ve never been much of a drug person anyway and so I’ve just decided to try and get off of it all and treat the FMS some other way. I’m researching vitamin therapy at the moment. ~~Lisa~~ 230/217/150 Started Atkins 06/04/03 Mark 10:26 ~ With God all things are possible.   The only thing worse then being alone is wishing you were.

Response:

Effexor.  Do a google search on Effexor withdrawals.  Thousands of people are suffering needlessly.

  I was curious because I’ve known several people who went on Wellbutrin for a short period (to quit smoking) and none of them had any difficulties with it. — Mike Graham                  | Metalworker, rustic, part-time zealot. <http://www.metalmangler.com| First run on low-carb: 320lbs to 210lbs.             Restarted June 01/2003 – 245/236/not sure.                   DENIQUE DIAETAM EFFICACEM INVENI

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello All, I have read in Adkin’s books about Splenda which is a artificial sweetner.  I have heard some folks swear by it because they can cook with it. I live overseas on an Air Force Base and I was shocked that we had it so I got some.  I only have it maybe twice a day with my caffine free coffee or my green tea.  That is the ONLY sugur I have used in weeks now. When you use that little you might try real sugar and see if you can handle it. To me Splenda seems too processed and unnatural. Sugar is processed from beets or canes and then further processed into Splenda. Wonderful things happen when you don’t eat as much sweet anymore and I think using something "safe" like Splenda to sweeten might make you use more and thus will keep you addicted to sweetness, thus ruining the experience of real food. If you use sugar you know you have to limit your intake. — Michael Nielsen M.Sc.EE

Great post, Michael.  I’ve been wondering about Splenda myself and what you said made a lot of sense.  I for one do not trust everything the government says is safe.  Prime example is a drug I’ve been trying to get off of for 2 months now.  Just a "harmless" antidepressant. Noone told the millions of people using it that it would be addictive and hell to get off of.  There are people all over the internet signing petitions to start a class action lawsuit against the drug company.  Anyway, I digress, but my point is that just because the government says Splenda is safe, imo, does not necessarily make it so. I’ve been reading a few things on it lately and it’s made me a little cautious of using it now. jmo ~~Lisa~~ 230/217/150 Started Atkins 06/04/03 Mark 10:26 ~ With God all things are possible.   The only thing worse then being alone is wishing you were.

Response:

i think so too.  i can handle small amounts of sugar – a tablespoon of organic sugar   Just so’s you know, sugar is sugar.  ’Organic sugar’ is no better for you than the regular sucrose that you get in the big bag for cheap.  The organic stuff is more likely to have contamination issues, as well.

i’m well aware that sugar is sugar; however, cane sugar tastes different than beet sugar does, and performs differently in baking.   evaporated cane juice sugar, to me, tastes better and gives better baking results – so that’s what i buy.  evaporated cane juice sugar is usually organic.  i don’t go out of my way to buy organic anything ever (i’m too poor), but the brand of sugar i prefer happens to be organic. so that’s what i typed.  

Response:

Great post, Michael.  I’ve been wondering about Splenda myself and what you said made a lot of sense.  I for one do not trust everything the government says is safe.  Prime example is a drug I’ve been trying to get off of for 2 months now.  Just a "harmless" antidepressant.

  Which antidepressant? — Mike Graham                  | Metalworker, rustic, part-time zealot. <http://www.metalmangler.com| First run on low-carb: 320lbs to 210lbs.             Restarted June 01/2003 – 245/236/not sure.                   DENIQUE DIAETAM EFFICACEM INVENI

Response:

i think so too.  i can handle small amounts of sugar – a tablespoon of organic sugar

  Just so’s you know, sugar is sugar.  ’Organic sugar’ is no better for you than the regular sucrose that you get in the big bag for cheap.  The organic stuff is more likely to have contamination issues, as well. — Mike Graham                  | Metalworker, rustic, part-time zealot. <http://www.metalmangler.com| First run on low-carb: 320lbs to 210lbs.             Restarted June 01/2003 – 245/236/not sure.                   DENIQUE DIAETAM EFFICACEM INVENI

Response:

Hello All, I have read in Adkin’s books about Splenda which is a artificial sweetner.  I have heard some folks swear by it because they can cook with it. I live overseas on an Air Force Base and I was shocked that we had it so I got some.  I only have it maybe twice a day with my caffine free coffee or my green tea.  That is the ONLY sugur I have used in weeks now. Now I read that it may be very bad for me.  Should I stop using it and just use regular sugar?  I hate Sweetnlow so that wasn’t an option, and the Equal has got Aspartme (sp).  Having a little sweet something now and then is a treat that I’m hoping I can get one way or the other, I just want to make the best choice. What say you all???

Response:

Hello All, I have read in Adkin’s books about Splenda which is a artificial sweetner.  I have heard some folks swear by it because they can cook with it. I live overseas on an Air Force Base and I was shocked that we had it so I got some.  I only have it maybe twice a day with my caffine free coffee or my green tea.  That is the ONLY sugur I have used in weeks now. Now I read that it may be very bad for me.  Should I stop using it and just use regular sugar?  I hate Sweetnlow so that wasn’t an option, and the Equal has got Aspartme (sp).  Having a little sweet something now and then is a treat that I’m hoping I can get one way or the other, I just want to make the best choice. What say you all???

Hi, Splenda and aspartame are completely and totally safe. They both been repeatedly tested by a whole lot of government regulatory agencies in a whole lot of different countries, and always passed. The possible and imaginary dangers are from the distorted minds of Mad Betty Martin and lunatic David Icke ( in th US and the UK respectively). Many diabetics and LC`ers use them, I mean millions of us, are we all wrong and those two right? hth — Al, Melton Mowbray, UK, diabetic Low-Carb a la Bernstein

Response:

Hello All, I have read in Adkin’s books about Splenda which is a artificial sweetner.  I have heard some folks swear by it because they can cook with it. I live overseas on an Air Force Base and I was shocked that we had it so I got some.  I only have it maybe twice a day with my caffine free coffee or my green tea.  That is the ONLY sugur I have used in weeks now.

When you use that little you might try real sugar and see if you can handle it. To me Splenda seems too processed and unnatural. Sugar is processed from beets or canes and then further processed into Splenda. Wonderful things happen when you don’t eat as much sweet anymore and I think using something "safe" like Splenda to sweeten might make you use more and thus will keep you addicted to sweetness, thus ruining the experience of real food. If you use sugar you know you have to limit your intake. — Michael Nielsen M.Sc.EE Music:   http://mp3.com/archon2 Website: http://www.archonia.dk

Response:

Question:

snip More sleep will help. I thank you so much for caring, and wish you a beautiful day.

Thank you ) You certainly sound more cheerful now – I’m glad you found a doctor you can get along with.  Good luck for tomorrow; I hope you do make it out to the shops. — —  Whiskers

Response:

Sorry. New to this group. Haven’t read the FAQ yet ( Too desperately scared and exhausted. Hello and welcome to ASD ) I’m a Brit, but there are several Americans here too – I hope you feel at home.

 { Courtseys and thanks you most humbly ) } I haven’t read the full FAQ yet either – too big!  (I’ve only been here a year and a bit)  There is a much shorter version here, and other good stuff too <http://www.meowkitty.net/asd/

  THANK YOU! (Didn’t mean to scream ) How did you get on with the doctor this time?

    Oooh, thanks for asking! Had my 1st night’s sleep (6-7 hours!!!) in several days, no nightmares until towards the AM, and less scarey!     Nice, *older* doc; boss of doc who caused the pain. Immediately prescribed Elavil, the only anti-depressant that helps me function. My husband helped me describe symptoms & history, as I was still in major panic attack mode. ) He was an angel, as was the Dr., as are you )     Was given something to help me sleep,too. Feeling 30% better, at least. Can’t get rid of the feeling depression won’t relax as much as it can until I get home again (US) …..but working on attitude restructure. Praying to be able to go out & raid charity shops for strange clothes tomorrow ) Don’t know if *out* is possible yet; maybe with another night’s sleep. {prays to Someone} More sleep will help. I thank you so much for caring, and wish you a beautiful day. SC

Response:

Sorry. New to this group. Haven’t read the FAQ yet ( Too desperately scared and exhausted.

Hello and welcome to ASD ) I’m a Brit, but there are several Americans here too – I hope you feel at home. I haven’t read the full FAQ yet either – too big!  (I’ve only been here a year and a bit)  There is a much shorter version here, and other good stuff too <http://www.meowkitty.net/asd/ How did you get on with the doctor this time? — —  Whiskers

Response:

I’m sorry about your plight. It must be very difficult to adjust to living in a new country when you start out depressed.

   Depression was under control when I arrived here, because of Elavil and and antihistamine combo thaT worked for me. . In fact, I was rather euphoric to be coming to a new country to be with my soul mate. Same year, I was divorced after 14 years of the *wrong* marriage to a wonderful person. Many other changes. I had idealized England for so many years. I took myself off my medications, a very stupid thing, thinking I no longer needed them, that maybe my depression had been situational. Hopeful thinking, and not the most rational, as I’d been medicated for depression (hospitalized twice) throughout past 20  years. But, I thought, "New Life…."      But changes: working 50+ hours per week to no work here due to 8 month wait for a visa, which finally arrived a couple of weeks ago & now I can’t work. Never much of a housewife, and that’s basically my job here,although husband quite understanding. Accustomed to lots of interaction with diverse socio-economic-cultural community. *Zero* interaction here, due to lack of transportation & no $ /

Question:

I read somewhere that the NPS considers invasive plants and animals to be a greater threat to the integrity of the park environments then the crush of human visitors.

This is one of the areas where full protection gets very hard to even define. For example, the Great Smokies area parks and some of the national forests nearby, are all either already allowing or considering unlimited fishing of rainbow trout. Why? Because the rainbow isn’t a native species, and they hope that eliminating it from some streams will preserve the native trout (which is technically a char anyway). Park service people are busily figuring out which streams have waterfalls high enough to keep rainbows from returning if fished out (as rainbows are mediocre jumpers compared to the native species), and which ones can’t be kept cleared. It may be ecologically sound overall, but it results in a crazy quilt pattern of fishing policies. I’m waiting for someone to suggest ‘improving’ a few waterfalls to make more streams ‘native species only’. Then there’s the asiatic brown trout, which is also non-native, but is unfortunately an excellent jumper…      Meanwhile, efforts continue to restore once native elk and wolves. Elk seem to be working, but keeping released red wolves alive when they stray out of the park area is highly doubtful, and if they can’t be established as a stable population, then the only way left to control the elk is to allow hunting. There’s also the question of whether red wolves count as a native species, since they all seem to have some domestic canine genes mixed in. Wolves may also help reduce the numbers of wild boar (again a non-native species). But nobody seriously thinks the wild boar can be eliminated by wolf predation…       The situation makes one thing clear. Once you let invasive plants and animals in, and hunt out a few native species, you have a seriously unstable ecosystem on your hands, and every step you take to restore a ‘normal’ ecology is a step into the unknown. All the likelyest scenarios involve other problems developing, and fixes for the fixes for the fixes being required. ‘Full protection’ becomes ‘full protection for native species’, with native usually meaning ‘before the white man came’. Planners don’t generally like to admit it, but they are not even trying to preserve the full diversity of the park’s wildlife, they are trying to set a higher threshold for the coming crash. They don’t expect to have a thousand species of wildflowers in the park in 30 years, but they think that proper management can cut diebacks to 20% or so, or in some areas 50%, and not taking these steps could leave us with 80 or 90% losses to some phyla. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yup and we also have to worry about plans to "localize" control of other areas of wilderness.  This is one of the few instances I can think of where National control of land is far better than state or local control.  Once local control is involved, local, economic concerns, logging, etc. takes over.  Then we all lose what we’ve been lucky enough as a nation to have had in the past. Jerry

Response:

 I still believe we have to recognize that National Parks are, by their very design, places where we have to balance the needs of recreation and protection. – Bob C.

snipped all sorts of agreeable stuff… Here’s the crux of the problem, not all people agree on what the "balance" should be. leads to healthy debate…too bad that’s about as far as it can go in this forum. — Paul Schnettler

Response:

     Don’t know if many have been following a previous post on protections for our National Parks but it seems by the responses that various animals and objects within our parks are not fully protected!  I was always under the assumption that our National Parks were these "Cathedrals" set aside, forever for the people and also for preservation. I think I agree with your sentiments in general, but disagree with the notion that National Parks should be set aside as "Cathedrals".

This was not a suggestion of mine——-simply an observation I had personally made and thought was true! This is more the purpose of other types of protected areas. A National Park is not the same thing as a wilderness area, although it may contain such areas. The mission of the NPS is stated as: "…to promote and regulate the use of the…national parks…which     purpose is to conserve the scenery and the natural and historic objects     and the wild life therein and to provide for the enjoyment of the same in     such manner and by such means as will leave them unimpaired for the     enjoyment of future generations."

Unimpaired for the enjoyment of future generations is a key phrase here. And as was stated in other posts, changing times, habitat loss and other factors may change the general "mission" of the park in future years. A key to the statement is the "enjoyment" aspect. Most of our parks have been created around scenic wonders of the landscape, scenic wonders which people naturally want to go see. (Everglades NP, designated in 1947, was the first park created purely because of the plant and animal life, with supporters admitting that many would consider the scenery to be "confused and monotonous" – having been there twice, however, I can tell you that the abundance of plants and animal life is itself a scenic wonder!). Personally, I think it makes sense to try to make the parks as accessible as possible (within the bounds of leaving them "unimpaired"). The reason I say this is that our National Parks are probably the best school room we have for educating people on the need for protecting our wilderness.

Exactly.  Even though I don’t like the idea of seeing animals in cages in zoos, I agree with the reasons——to educate, inform and enlighten the public on the issues of preservation.  Somewhere along the line, man may have to face the choice of either restricting events that may lead to the complete loss of a species, etc. or lose the species alltogether.  That’s a drastic statement and we as a nation are at this cross road with some species now but will we value our National Parks enough to restrict certain activities in a park that will cause negative affects by overuse? I read somewhere that the NPS considers invasive plants and animals to be a greater threat to the integrity of the park environments then the crush of human visitors.

I somewhat agree.  Vast numbers of visitors can be controlled, after all, you’re dealing with an "intelligent" being.  :-)  But mindless, foreign plants that may have no, local preditors but thrive in their new homes can choke out resident plants because these plants have to contend with the native insects, diseases, etc. I don’t know if this is true, but I can easily believe it given the the human visitation is mostly limited to very small areas of the park and is completely within our control. So bring as many people as possible to the park and give them that environmental education.

Yes.  The vast majority of visitors to the parks never see the "back country". Yes, we do have to be always wary of many of the privatization schemes and other ways in which those hostile to environmental concerns would like to "Disnify" our parks, but I still believe we have to recognize that National Parks are, by their very design, places where we have to balance the needs of recreation and protection.

Yup and we also have to worry about plans to "localize" control of other areas of wilderness.  This is one of the few instances I can think of where National control of land is far better than state or local control.  Once local control is involved, local, economic concerns, logging, etc. takes over.  Then we all lose what we’ve been lucky enough as a nation to have had in the past. Jerry

Response:

Jerry, I know where you’re going with your plea, and I respect that. But why attempt to turn something that was once and is no longer…wilderness, into what it cannot revert back to? It’s an oxymoron… congregating mass quantities of people into an area like Yellowstone renders it no longer a "wilderness" experience.

Well, the way I look at it is that the vast majority of visitors to the park don’t even get into the "back country"!  Many just drive the loops then stay in a motel for the night then head home.  So not that many people are spoiling the parks.  And the few who do make it back into the "wilderness" tend to take care of it.  It’s not a lost cause. Why not keep the truly unmolested areas as wilderness areas for all to see and experience, while leaving other areas not so pristine? Experiencing the wilderness is more of a mindset rather than an event. One (IMHO) cannot expect to funnel people in cars or any other form of mass transportation into an area and then proclaim it as a "wilderness past" experience. In almost every preserve…(I like that word better) type of area I’ve visited, it takes a day of hard paddling or strenuous hiking to get past the day trip mentality people, back to the areas where you really want to spend time exploring. In other words, you put the effort forth to find the "walden" that you seek, each seeker has his/her own expectations.

That’s exactly what I’m talking about. Again, IMHO the mere presence of people threatens the protections afforded the animals in the parks. Any man vs/ animal situation puts the animal at a disadvantage with regards to protections…it’s the human psyche that upsets the balance.

You’re right but just by having people present, doesn’t necessarily have to degrade the immediate environment for animals living there.  That’s where and why we have certain rules to follow to insure a quality experience in our parks.  Somethin’ worth fighting for. Jerry – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — Paul Schnettler

Response:

     Don’t know if many have been following a previous post on protections for our National Parks but it seems by the responses that various animals and objects within our parks are not fully protected!  I was always under the assumption that our National Parks were these "Cathedrals" set aside, forever for the people and also for preservation.  

I think I agree with your sentiments in general, but disagree with the notion that National Parks should be set aside as "Cathedrals". This is more the purpose of other types of protected areas. A National Park is not the same thing as a wilderness area, although it may contain such areas. The mission of the NPS is stated as: "…to promote and regulate the use of the…national parks…which     purpose is to conserve the scenery and the natural and historic objects     and the wild life therein and to provide for the enjoyment of the same in     such manner and by such means as will leave them unimpaired for the     enjoyment of future generations." A key to the statement is the "enjoyment" aspect. Most of our parks have been created around scenic wonders of the landscape, scenic wonders which people naturally want to go see. (Everglades NP, designated in 1947, was the first park created purely because of the plant and animal life, with supporters admitting that many would consider the scenery to be "confused and monotonous" – having been there twice, however, I can tell you that the abundance of plants and animal life is itself a scenic wonder!). Personally, I think it makes sense to try to make the parks as accessible as possible (within the bounds of leaving them "unimpaired"). The reason I say this is that our National Parks are probably the best school room we have for educating people on the need for protecting our wilderness. People who would dismiss me as a tree-hugger and not listen to anything I say will stop and take notice when they’re in a national park listening to a park ranger say the exact same thing. People of all political ideologies seem to have a great deal of respect for park rangers, and I don’t think I ever met a ranger who wasn’t a great deal concerned about protecting the environment. I read somewhere that the NPS considers invasive plants and animals to be a greater threat to the integrity of the park environments then the crush of human visitors. I don’t know if this is true, but I can easily believe it given the the human visitation is mostly limited to very small areas of the park and is completely within our control. So bring as many people as possible to the park and give them that environmental education. Yes, we do have to be always wary of many of the privatization schemes and other ways in which those hostile to environmental concerns would like to "Disnify" our parks, but I still believe we have to recognize that National Parks are, by their very design, places where we have to balance the needs of recreation and protection. – Bob C.

Response:

     Don’t know if many have been following a previous post on protections for our National Parks but it seems by the responses that various animals and objects within our parks are not fully protected!  I was always under the assumption that our National Parks were these "Cathedrals" set aside, forever for the people and also for preservation.  Not so.  So, when you see lobbyists trying to further degrade the only public place that should be held in trust for preservation AND public use that does not degrade your park, speak up.  All Americans have the right to get a glimpse of what the American wilderness used to be.  And future generations should also have the same expectations.      There is plenty of public land outside our National Parks where people can use the land for something other than preservation.  Here’s a "timely" quote from John Muir that perfectly fits various "These temple-destroyers, devotees of ravaging commercialism, seem to have a perfect contempt for Nature, and instead of lifting their eyes to the God of the mountains, lift them to the Almighty Dollar". Jerry

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –      Don’t know if many have been following a previous post on protections for our National Parks but it seems by the responses that various animals and objects within our parks are not fully protected!  I was always under the assumption that our National Parks were these "Cathedrals" set aside, forever for the people and also for preservation.  Not so.  So, when you see lobbyists trying to further degrade the only public place that should be held in trust for preservation AND public use that does not degrade your park, speak up.  All Americans have the right to get a glimpse of what the American wilderness used to be.  And future generations should also have the same expectations.      There is plenty of public land outside our National Parks where people can use the land for something other than preservation.  Here’s a "timely" quote from John Muir that perfectly fits various "These temple-destroyers, devotees of ravaging commercialism, seem to have a perfect contempt for Nature, and instead of lifting their eyes to the God of the mountains, lift them to the Almighty Dollar". Jerry

Jerry, I know where you’re going with your plea, and I respect that. But why attempt to turn something that was once and is no longer…wilderness, into what it cannot revert back to? It’s an oxymoron… congregating mass quantities of people into an area like Yellowstone renders it no longer a "wilderness" experience. Why not keep the truly unmolested areas as wilderness areas for all to see and experience, while leaving other areas not so pristine? Experiencing the wilderness is more of a mindset rather than an event. One (IMHO) cannot expect to funnel people in cars or any other form of mass transportation into an area and then proclaim it as a "wilderness past" experience. In almost every preserve…(I like that word better) type of area I’ve visited, it takes a day of hard paddling or strenuous hiking to get past the day trip mentality people, back to the areas where you really want to spend time exploring. In other words, you put the effort forth to find the "walden" that you seek, each seeker has his/her own expectations. Again, IMHO the mere presence of people threatens the protections afforded the animals in the parks. Any man vs/ animal situation puts the animal at a disadvantage with regards to protections…it’s the human psyche that upsets the balance. — Paul Schnettler

Response:

Question:

I have been on prozac, effexor. paxil, celexa, and back to prozac over a 15 year period give or take a few years. and i was wondering if there is any way for getting over my depression, panic, personality disorder, and other things that i have, I dont want to be with this stuff for ever, how can i get rid of it….?

Response:

Hi and Welcome to the ng, I have been on prozac, effexor. paxil, celexa, and back to prozac over a 15 year period give or take a few years. and i was wondering if there is any way for getting over my depression, panic, personality disorder, and other things that i have, I dont want to be with this stuff for ever, how can i get rid of it….?

Are you in therapy now? Peace, Lynda — LyndaNP Reality isn’t the way you wish things to be, nor the way they appear to be, but the way they actually are. – Robert J. Ringer

Response:

I have been on prozac, effexor. paxil, celexa, and back to prozac over a 15 year period give or take a few years. and i was wondering if there is any way for getting over my depression, panic, personality disorder, and other things that i have, I dont want to be with this stuff for ever, how can i get rid of it….?

Have you given therapy with a really good therapist a try? Fiona — If we had no winter, the spring would not be so pleasant: if we did not sometimes taste the adversity, prosperity would not be so welcome.      – Anne Bradstreet, Meditations Divine and Moral, 1664

Response:

Yes I am in therapy. I dont see how just talking helps I get to feeling like all i do is cry. Its not like i always have bad things that happen all the time. It just seems like they get me down the most….. how come i dont get happy when good thing happen….Actually i have been to see several therapist…. and counselors….. and psychiatrist……. i just get the feeling like they just sit and agree with me. beckie — "If you have a candle, the light won’t glow any dimmer if I light yours off of mine." (STEVEN TYLER) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Are you in therapy now? Peace, Lynda — LyndaNP Reality isn’t the way you wish things to be, nor the way they appear to be, but the way they actually are. – Robert J. Ringer Have you given therapy with a really good therapist a try? Fiona — If we had no winter, the spring would not be so pleasant: if we did not sometimes taste the adversity, prosperity would not be so welcome.      – Anne Bradstreet, Meditations Divine and Moral, 1664

Response:

Hi again, Yes I am in therapy. I dont see how just talking helps I get to feeling like all i do is cry. Its not like i always have bad things that happen all the time. It just seems like they get me down the most….. how come i dont get happy when good thing happen….Actually i have been to see several therapist…. and counselors….. and psychiatrist……. i just get the feeling like they just sit and agree with me. beckie

 Beckie I am so very sorry. Email me anytime. Peace, Lynda

Response:

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dan wrote…… I take xanax before going to bed and get to slepp usually within 10 minutes, but I allways awaken about 1.5 to 2 hours later feeling anxious, and sweating terribly. My hands have gone to sleep due to poor circulation. What is the best med for sleep? PLEASE! Dear Dan, There is a good chance that you are undermedicated when it come to Xanax, the should discuss this with your doctor. How long have you been on Zoloft, what is your current dose and do you feel it has helped you any? How is your anxiety during the day? If Zoloft hasn`t helped you much and is causing you to sleep poorly…..perhaps instead of adding yet another med why not switch to another antidepressant? I have gone through stages where my hands are always falling alseep while I am sleeping I have a bad habit of tucking my arms under my head and that is whats makes them fall asleep. Take care Jackie "Our ultimate freedom is the right and power to decide how anybody or anything outside ourselves will affect us." -Stephen Covey

Jackie-I do the same thing you do with my hands under head for sleepling. I assumed it was just poor circulation that caused the numness, Today a doctor told me it is carpel tunnel that is causing them to go to sleep–or probably a pinched nerve.

Response:

I can get ambien here in FLorida a hell of a lot easier than I can get xanax around here.. Ambien, sonata… (guess cause they aren’t in high demand on the street…)

There’s no problem with the availability of Ambien elsewhere, either. It’s zopiclone that can’t generally be obtained in the US, though it is available in Europe. I personally found zopiclone more effective than Ambien, though Ambien is quite good. -David-

Response:

What is the best med for sleep? PLEASE! Ambien (zolpidem) is pretty good, I found. It’s more or less unique. There is also zopiclone, if you can get a script for it (it’s not generally available in the US).

I can get ambien here in FLorida a hell of a lot easier than I can get xanax around here.. Ambien, sonata… (guess cause they aren’t in high demand on the street…) Or you could try a sedating antidepressant like amitriptyline, doxepin, or mirtazapine (Remeron). But these work in a different way for sleeplessness, and may not work for everyone. -David-

when I added remeron to my xanax and zoloft (4mg and 100mg respectively daily) I have had a much easier time sleeping… YMMV. Much Love, Brooke

Response:

I take xanax before going to bed and get to slepp usually within 10 minutes, but I allways awaken about 1.5 to 2 hours later feeling anxious, and sweating terribly. My hands have gone to sleep due to poor circulation. What is the best med for sleep? PLEASE!

Response:

What is the best med for sleep? PLEASE!

Ambien (zolpidem) is pretty good, I found. It’s more or less unique. There is also zopiclone, if you can get a script for it (it’s not generally available in the US). Or you could try a sedating antidepressant like amitriptyline, doxepin, or mirtazapine (Remeron). But these work in a different way for sleeplessness, and may not work for everyone. -David-

Response:

Dan wrote…… I take xanax before going to bed and get to slepp usually within 10 minutes, but I allways awaken about 1.5 to 2 hours later feeling anxious, and sweating terribly. My hands have gone to sleep due to poor circulation. What is the best med for sleep? PLEASE!

Dear Dan, There is a good chance that you are undermedicated when it come to Xanax, the should discuss this with your doctor. How long have you been on Zoloft, what is your current dose and do you feel it has helped you any? How is your anxiety during the day? If Zoloft hasn`t helped you much and is causing you to sleep poorly…..perhaps instead of adding yet another med why not switch to another antidepressant? I have gone through stages where my hands are always falling alseep while I am sleeping I have a bad habit of tucking my arms under my head and that is whats makes them fall asleep. Take care Jackie "Our ultimate freedom is the right and power to decide how anybody or anything outside ourselves will affect us." -Stephen Covey

Response:

Question:

They still do not know for sure if Ecstasy even cause brain damage.

Yes it does!! Go to Medscape and use the key words "Ecstasy and brain damage", and see all the info there is. We`ve had two posters at this newsgroup that know of people that have devastating brain damage from using Ecstasy. In many case, the brain damage is a fate worse than death. Not to mention that people have died after using Ecstasy just ONE time. Jackie Here is a small sample of what is at Medscape: [Clinical and toxicologic aspects of the use of Ecstasy (see comments)] [Klinische en toxicologische aspecten van ecstasygebruik.] Ned Tijdschr Geneeskd 1998 Aug 29;142(35):1942-6   (ISSN: 0028-2162) Pennings EJ; Konijn KZ; de Wolff FA [Find other articles with these Authors] Leids Universitair Medisch Centrum, afd. Klinische Chemie, Leiden. Methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA, the active compound of ecstacy (XTC) tablets) is a psychoactive amphetamine congener which in humans has a stimulatory effect and enhances feelings of openness and solidarity. MDMA is neurotoxic in animals. It depletes axonal serotonin stores, it inhibits serotonin synthesis by inhibiting tryptophan hydroxylase, and it inhibits the reuptake of serotonin into the neuron. These events lead to destruction of serotonergic axon terminals in animal brain. Selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors protect against the neurotoxic effects of MDMA. Binding of (+)[11C]McN-5652, a selective neuroligand for the serotonin transporter, is decreased in the brains of XTC-users. This indicates that XTC damages serotonergic axon terminals in human brain, also. We strongly advise against the use of XTC as the long-term clinical consequences are not known. In man, somatic life-threatening complications after XTC use include hyperthermia, hyponatraemia and liver failure. Psychiatric complications include psychosis, depression, panic disorder, and impulsive behaviour. The chronic psychosis responds poorly to therapy. Comment in: Ned Tijdschr Geneeskd 1998 Oct 17; 142(42):2321-2 [Ecstasy: psychostimulant, hallucinogen and toxic substance] [L'ecstasy: psychostimulant, hallucinogene et toxique.] Presse Med 1996 Sep 14;25(26):1208-12   (ISSN: 0755-4982) Burnat P; Le Brumant-Payen C; Huart B; Ceppa F; Pailler FM [Find other articles with these Authors] Laboratoire de Biochimie et de Toxicologie cliniques, Hopital d’Instruction des Armees Begin, Saint-Mande. MDMA or 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine, more commonly called "ecstasy", is a drug classified as a stupefiant and increasingly used by young people for its stimulant and hallucinogen effects. This popular designer drug is often used in techno or rave parties and perceived by users as relatively harmless. It has however been associated with disorders of thermoregulation and has been the cause of several deaths. In addition, the drug has been shown to destroy serotonin receptors in the brain in the monkey and leads to serious physchiatric disorders and liver damage in man. Adverse reactions with 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA; ‘ecstasy’). Drug Saf 1996 Aug;15(2):107-15   (ISSN: 0114-5916) McCann UD; Slate SO; Ricaurte GA [Find other articles with these Authors] Unit on Anxiety Disorders, National Institute of Mental Health, Bethesda, Maryland, USA. 3,4-Methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA; ‘ecstasy’) is an increasingly popular recreational drug in the US, Western Europe and Australia. In animals, including nonhuman primates, MDMA is known to damage brain serotonin (5-hydroxytryptamine; 5-HT) neurons. It is not known whether MDMA damages serotonin neurons in the human brain but there is some indication that it may. Although the large majority of individuals who have used MDMA recreationally do not develop acute complications, as the popularity of MDMA has increased, so have reports of adverse nonpsychiatric and psychiatric consequences associated with use of the drug. Further, since manifestations of MDMA-induced serotonin injury might only become apparent with age, or under periods of stress, it is possible that some individuals with no apparent abnormalities might develop complications over time. High intensity dependence of auditory evoked dipole source activity indicates decreased serotonergic activity in abstinent ecstasy (MDMA) users. Neuropsychopharmacology 2000 Jun;22(6):608-17   (ISSN: 0893-133X) Tuchtenhagen F; Daumann J; Norra C; Gobbele R; Becker S; Pelz S; Sass H; Buchner H; Gouzoulis-Mayfrank E [Find other articles with these Authors] Department of Psychiatry and Psychotherapy, Medical Faculty of the University of Technology, Pauwelsstrasse 30, D-52074, Aachen, Germany. Neurotoxic damage of central serotonergic systems has been demonstrated in numerous animal studies after exposure to methylenedioxyamphetamines (ecstasy). A high intensity dependence of auditory evoked potentials and, particularly, of the tangential N1/P2 source activity has been associated with low levels of serotonergic neurotransmission in humans. We performed an auditory evoked potentials study in 28 abstinent recreational ecstasy users and two equally sized groups of cannabis users and nonusers. The ecstasy users exhibited an increase of the amplitude of the tangential N1/P2 source activity with higher stimulus intensities; whereas, both control groups failed to exhibit this feature. These data are in line with the hypothesis that abstinent ecstasy users present with diminished central serotonergic activity. This feature of information processing is probably related to the well-recognized neurotoxic potential of ecstasy. Our data indicate that recreational ecstasy use may cause long-term alterations in the function (and possibly structure) of the human brain.

Response:

Hi, I was

here before talking about worries I had about SSRI’s. I am not a doctor. I do

have a degree in Sociology (a B.A.), but this whole informal study of mine was

due to some concerns I had about restarting taking SSRIs. It seemed to some

of you that I thought they were awful, but that really was not the case. I’d

like to start posting non-related concerns, posts, etc., so I thought I should

clear up this old one first. Ok, here goes…. My Conclusion as of Now

(conclusions can always change): #1 – In light of the fact that panic and

anxiety can be debilitating and these meds have shown positive effects in

people, they are worth a shot and have few concerns attached to them. They are

almost totally harmless to the point that I would almost say they are not

harmless at all. *see note #1* #2 – It is my opinion and the opinion of many

doctors(at least I get the impression) that these meds are best used to "pick you up" out of a period of stress/depression and not for a lifetime. I say this mostly because one cannot always count on a medicine to work or to be available. There may be some very small long term concerns with the meds as

well. They are very small but worth a little "concern". In my opinion and from

what I have gathered, the best way to use an SSRI, Effexor, or Buspar is for a

short period of time to help you to overcome the problems. It is best to

actually overcome one’s problems by oneself and it is my belief that the meds

act as aides in your OWN recovery process, which when fully complete will see you medicine free. #3 – While I do not wish to put down these meds, I believe from experience that one should go about solving one’s problems with stress in

the following manner (a) Therapy of any sort in which no medicine is administered (b) Medicine with therapy (c) However one chooses to go when

one is "better" (relatively speaking- I am an optimist so I DO – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -think one can get 100% better). #4 – This might be a bit of a rehash of another point, but it only makes logical sense to first try everything besides medication for the anxiety unless the anxiety becomes somewhat debilitating. Then, it makes sense to take a med for a period of time while working on the causes of the anxiety. This may seem like common sense so far. What I am REALLY trying to say is that there are SLIGHT risks associated with these meds and SIDE EFFECTS, so obviously the best approach possible would be to take no

meds at all. I say this because some of us have not tried everything out there

yet. EXAMPLE: Some of my major problems are specific phobias that grip me in

certain situations. Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprogramming is supposed

to work for this. Also, Reiki or "the Healing Touch" has been proven

scientifically legitimate as a method of relieving stress. Some of us rush to

the medication without trying enough of the alternatives. I think it is wise to

FIRST try to deal with it without the meds or at least use the meds as a

"helper" while doing other therapy that will ultimately bring you to a stage of being as well as possible. #5 – When calculating the risks of the meds, one

should factor in what having the stress itself could possibly cause. In my case, I came to the conclusion that taking an SSRI again might be worth it to me because stress can cause heart attacks. Even if the SSRI itself may cause some minor physical problems (if they do they would be minor), the effect of taking away the stress would outweight the bad parts. #6 – The actual

concerns I still have to a small degree: Heart- Although, many medical

studies concluded that SSRI’s have no effect on the heart, I did find a couple

noting some problems in some people and in animals in the cardio area. One

noted that SSRIs affected Calcium and Sodium in some manner related to the heart – I don’t remember but the effect was related to Calcium and Sodium. I did not fully understand the significance of this, but I believe it is small. I also found some articles in which EKG’s were affected SLIGHTLY due to SSRIs.

HOWEVER, it should be noted that even people who have had heart attacks have

taken SSRIs and MOST do not have any problems. MOST of the elderly who take

these meds do not have cardio problems because of the meds. SO, what I would

say to do here is periodically get your heart checked to ensure that you do not

have any cardio problems. My main fear here comes from the fact that Trycyclics

and drugs such as Phen-Fen DID have effects on the heart that were

significantly bad. Studies show that the SSRIs are almost completely safe, but

*personally* I would periodically get my heart checked to ensure nothing was developing. Blood Pressure – Effexor does cause an elevation in blood pressure. For this reason, I will not even take Effexor. My blood pressure is perfect so, *personally* I will not take Effexor unless nothing helps at all. OR, I would perhaps try Effexor and see if it did not do this… If it did not, I might go with it. Brain – The study I noted about rats and

SSRIs and brain damage was not fully completed. That particular study showed

that rat brain cells shrunk and also took on "corkscrew-like" shapes. This was with a high dosage. I have since been alerted that my logic was wrong in this regard. Taking lower doses of the meds over time will not likely have this effect. However, the study did say "this raises concerns". For myself, I am considering the usage of the medicine a short term aide that

is part of a bigger plan. I wish there were more studies on the effect of SSRIs on the brain in the long term. I do not think they will cause serious problems unless one notices them during treatment. Most of the problems, such as tics, go away when the medicine is discontinued. Liver – There was some

literature that found that there were some concerns with liver enzymes but

these were again just concerns. They did not seem enough to make someone not

take the medicine. I believe the concerns were based on Prozac more than any other SSRI. Mental/Emotional Effects – I would like to further research this area. Sometimes and for some people, these meds can cause negative mental events, such as mania .04% in Sertraline (too much for me personally). Does anyone know if this is something that will either happen right away or could these pop up all of sudden??? I would hate to be taking an SSRI and then after 2 years or so on the med have an episode of mania. Is this

possible? I just don’t know right now. I tend to believe if the medicine does

not cause these effects after it is started that it will not cause them in the

future. Can anyone validify that??? Anyway, the point here is, as with anything

uncertain, the better path would be to use the meds to cope until one could get off of them. The actual risk of "going crazy" is really low. I apologize that I do not fully understand this aspect. Does anyone know if the people who "flip out" have it happen right away or if that can happen out of the blue once treatment is well underway????? Note: It is not unfair to say that these effects have happened. In some people they have. Parkinson’s –

They are not sure, but they believe the drug Ecstasy may cause Parkinson’s.

They found in the infamous rat study that the effects of SSRIs were similar to

that of Ecstasy. However, these studies did not have any definitive answers and

it should be noted that Ecstasy is a lot more potent of a medicine with a

different chemistry. I only used it here for comparison. So far, there is no

evidence linking SSRIs to Parkinson’s or brain damage. They still do not know for sure if Ecstasy even cause brain damage. Other: Some people get movement

disorders (small %). Circulatory problems have been noted as a possibility

(nothing life threatening I believe and in a small % people). The normal side effects have been reported as "not worth it" by some. How I have decided to

deal with these concerns: (a) Consider the treatment with an SSRI to be a short term solution. (b) Consider the small risk of mostly minor problems (most of the concerns- even minor brain damage can be overcome) to be insignificant in

comparison of the help the meds may bring to me. (c) Realize that the

percentages of people reporting any problems of any magnitude is very small. (d) Realize that right now it is all speculation, as it is possible that any long term "side effect" could be due to something else in that person’s life. Ex: Someone having a heart attack while on an SSRI does not necessarily mean they cause heart attacks. The most important

realization I have had: My psychiatrist(I hate the term "pdoc" -sorry) told

me that taking these meds is like taking Aspirin, Tylenol, or Advil. You can choose which to take and you can choose to stop them. I feel this is the best attitude. I still would heartily recommend checking oneself medically more frequently than other people may. I do not say this to cause anxiety in anyone. I say this because there are SLIGHT issues that are still being looked into regarding these medicines. I can show anyone who wants to see it the article on the actual effect on the heart (sounds minor- would

have to look up what this effect actually means/ it could mean really nothing at all). Also, I used to take Paxil and I think it did help me. It is very hard to tell for me as regular life can sometimes cause things to get better and worse. Anyway, I believe it did help and I know that the only real annoying problem was that if I took an entire 20mg pill before bed I would wake up exactly  6 hours later. I am considering going back on Paxil

or trying Zoloft. I don’t think I gave Paxil enough of a chance because I drank

coffee while taking it, so – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I will perhaps go with it again.

… read more »

Response:

NOTE: I lumped Effexor and Buspar in here. Effexor had many of the same effects of an SSRI. There really wasn’t too much info on Buspar. I read somewhere that they think Buspar might actually *help* people with Parkinson’s (read this in "Beyond Prozac") so that’s kind of encouraging as far as the safety issue.

Response:

Before you take an SSRI I think you should read about this. You won’t likely get it from taking too much of one SSRI (allegedly impossible to get it from just taking a lot of one SSRI), but you can get it when you mix certain meds. They think it only applies with MAO-Inhibitors and SSRIs. I could have sworn I read that it’s possible to get from mixing two different SSRIs, but that may not be true. Nonetheless, you should at least be aware of it as a phenomenon.

Response:

Hi, I was here before talking about worries I had about SSRI’s. I am not a doctor. I do have a degree in Sociology (a B.A.), but this whole informal study of mine was due to some concerns I had about restarting taking SSRIs. It seemed to some of you that I thought they were awful, but that really was not the case. I’d like to start posting non-related concerns, posts, etc., so I thought I should clear up this old one first. Ok, here goes…. My Conclusion as of Now (conclusions can always change): #1 – In light of the fact that panic and anxiety can be debilitating and these meds have shown positive effects in people, they are worth a shot and have few concerns attached to them. They are almost totally harmless to the point that I would almost say they are not harmless at all. *see note #1* #2 – It is my opinion and the opinion of many doctors(at least I get the impression) that these meds are best used to "pick you up" out of a period of stress/depression and not for a lifetime. I say this mostly because one cannot always count on a medicine to work or to be available. There may be some very small long term concerns with the meds as well. They are very small but worth a little "concern". In my opinion and from what I have gathered, the best way to use an SSRI, Effexor, or Buspar is for a short period of time to help you to overcome the problems. It is best to actually overcome one’s problems by oneself and it is my belief that the meds act as aides in your OWN recovery process, which when fully complete will see you medicine free. #3 – While I do not wish to put down these meds, I believe from experience that one should go about solving one’s problems with stress in the following manner (a) Therapy of any sort in which no medicine is administered (b) Medicine with therapy (c) However one chooses to go when one is "better" (relatively speaking- I am an optimist so I DO think one can get 100% better). #4 – This might be a bit of a rehash of another point, but it only makes logical sense to first try everything besides medication for the anxiety unless the anxiety becomes somewhat debilitating. Then, it makes sense to take a med for a period of time while working on the causes of the anxiety. This may seem like common sense so far. What I am REALLY trying to say is that there are SLIGHT risks associated with these meds and SIDE EFFECTS, so obviously the best approach possible would be to take no meds at all. I say this because some of us have not tried everything out there yet. EXAMPLE: Some of my major problems are specific phobias that grip me in certain situations. Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprogramming is supposed to work for this. Also, Reiki or "the Healing Touch" has been proven scientifically legitimate as a method of relieving stress. Some of us rush to the medication without trying enough of the alternatives. I think it is wise to FIRST try to deal with it without the meds or at least use the meds as a "helper" while doing other therapy that will ultimately bring you to a stage of being as well as possible. #5 – When calculating the risks of the meds, one should factor in what having the stress itself could possibly cause. In my case, I came to the conclusion that taking an SSRI again might be worth it to me because stress can cause heart attacks. Even if the SSRI itself may cause some minor physical problems (if they do they would be minor), the effect of taking away the stress would outweight the bad parts. #6 – The actual concerns I still have to a small degree: Heart- Although, many medical studies concluded that SSRI’s have no effect on the heart, I did find a couple noting some problems in some people and in animals in the cardio area. One noted that SSRIs affected Calcium and Sodium in some manner related to the heart – I don’t remember but the effect was related to Calcium and Sodium. I did not fully understand the significance of this, but I believe it is small. I also found some articles in which EKG’s were affected SLIGHTLY due to SSRIs. HOWEVER, it should be noted that even people who have had heart attacks have taken SSRIs and MOST do not have any problems. MOST of the elderly who take these meds do not have cardio problems because of the meds. SO, what I would say to do here is periodically get your heart checked to ensure that you do not have any cardio problems. My main fear here comes from the fact that Trycyclics and drugs such as Phen-Fen DID have effects on the heart that were significantly bad. Studies show that the SSRIs are almost completely safe, but *personally* I would periodically get my heart checked to ensure nothing was developing. Blood Pressure – Effexor does cause an elevation in blood pressure. For this reason, I will not even take Effexor. My blood pressure is perfect so, *personally* I will not take Effexor unless nothing helps at all. OR, I would perhaps try Effexor and see if it did not do this… If it did not, I might go with it. Brain – The study I noted about rats and SSRIs and brain damage was not fully completed. That particular study showed that rat brain cells shrunk and also took on "corkscrew-like" shapes. This was with a high dosage. I have since been alerted that my logic was wrong in this regard. Taking lower doses of the meds over time will not likely have this effect. However, the study did say "this raises concerns". For myself, I am considering the usage of the medicine a short term aide that is part of a bigger plan. I wish there were more studies on the effect of SSRIs on the brain in the long term. I do not think they will cause serious problems unless one notices them during treatment. Most of the problems, such as tics, go away when the medicine is discontinued. Liver – There was some literature that found that there were some concerns with liver enzymes but these were again just concerns. They did not seem enough to make someone not take the medicine. I believe the concerns were based on Prozac more than any other SSRI. Mental/Emotional Effects – I would like to further research this area. Sometimes and for some people, these meds can cause negative mental events, such as mania .04% in Sertraline (too much for me personally). Does anyone know if this is something that will either happen right away or could these pop up all of sudden??? I would hate to be taking an SSRI and then after 2 years or so on the med have an episode of mania. Is this possible? I just don’t know right now. I tend to believe if the medicine does not cause these effects after it is started that it will not cause them in the future. Can anyone validify that??? Anyway, the point here is, as with anything uncertain, the better path would be to use the meds to cope until one could get off of them. The actual risk of "going crazy" is really low. I apologize that I do not fully understand this aspect. Does anyone know if the people who "flip out" have it happen right away or if that can happen out of the blue once treatment is well underway????? Note: It is not unfair to say that these effects have happened. In some people they have. Parkinson’s – They are not sure, but they believe the drug Ecstasy may cause Parkinson’s. They found in the infamous rat study that the effects of SSRIs were similar to that of Ecstasy. However, these studies did not have any definitive answers and it should be noted that Ecstasy is a lot more potent of a medicine with a different chemistry. I only used it here for comparison. So far, there is no evidence linking SSRIs to Parkinson’s or brain damage. They still do not know for sure if Ecstasy even cause brain damage. Other: Some people get movement disorders (small %). Circulatory problems have been noted as a possibility (nothing life threatening I believe and in a small % people). The normal side effects have been reported as "not worth it" by some. How I have decided to deal with these concerns: (a) Consider the treatment with an SSRI to be a short term solution. (b) Consider the small risk of mostly minor problems (most of the concerns- even minor brain damage can be overcome) to be insignificant in comparison of the help the meds may bring to me. (c) Realize that the percentages of people reporting any problems of any magnitude is very small. (d) Realize that right now it is all speculation, as it is possible that any long term "side effect" could be due to something else in that person’s life. Ex: Someone having a heart attack while on an SSRI does not necessarily mean they cause heart attacks. The most important realization I have had: My psychiatrist(I hate the term "pdoc" -sorry) told me that taking these meds is like taking Aspirin, Tylenol, or Advil. You can choose which to take and you can choose to stop them. I feel this is the best attitude. I still would heartily recommend checking oneself medically more frequently than other people may. I do not say this to cause anxiety in anyone. I say this because there are SLIGHT issues that are still being looked into regarding these medicines. I can show anyone who wants to see it the article on the actual effect on the heart (sounds minor- would have to look up what this effect actually means/ it could mean really nothing at all). Also, I used to take Paxil and I think it did help me. It is very hard to tell for me as regular life can sometimes cause things to get better and worse. Anyway, I believe it did help and I know that the only real annoying problem was that if I took an entire 20mg pill before bed I would wake up exactly  6 hours later. I am considering going back on Paxil or trying Zoloft. I don’t think I gave Paxil enough of a chance because I drank coffee while taking it, so I will perhaps go with it again. As far as other meds, I have not found anything really worrisome about Clonazepam except that some believe one can become addicted to it. I definitely have not become addicted to it. Anyway, I hope everyone realizes that I do think taking … read more »

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Question:

Without blinking an eye, he wrote a script for testosterone cream. I’d actually heard about it on the Leeza show and on Oprah, but figured my HMO would never provide such a thing–it has to be compounded. I have been on the testosterone cream for about 3 months–and my desire is SOOOO much better–not like when I was 20, but at least sex is now a regular activity for us.

You’ve got a very cool doctor.  I never thought of that.  Thanks for mentioning it.  

Response:

Without blinking an eye, he wrote a script for testosterone cream. I’d actually heard about it on the Leeza show and on Oprah, but figured my HMO would never provide such a thing–it has to be compounded. I have been on the testosterone cream for about 3 months–and my desire is SOOOO much better–not like when I was 20, but at least sex is now a regular activity for us. You’ve got a very cool doctor.  I never thought of that.  Thanks for mentioning it.  

I saw him on a fluke.  I now have a NEW ob/gyn.  I was so afraid he would not speak english due to his name–I made hubby go with me. you see, I found a growth–or so I thought and I was really scared. Turns out to be just an extra flap of tissue and nothing to worry about. Also, the testosterone cream has totally alleviated my vulvodena–a pain in the you know where! LOL Nancy To respond via email, delete "nospam" from my address. Please visit the new moderated recovery group at alt.med.fibromyalgia.recovery.info Also, check out the guafenisin group at alt.med.fibromyalgia.guaifenesin Please visit the new group, alt.talk.grandparents.

Response:

I have been on trazadone for almost 20 years.  Last summer, I lost all sexual desire–I don tthink it was the traz or other meds–maybe just stress of my situation. First I tried OTC synthetic progesterone and wild yam cream–that helped quite a bit.  Then I had a urgent appointment with a new ob/gyn (I am female) on another issue.and told him about my desire issue. Without blinking an eye, he wrote a script for testosterone cream. I’d actually heard about it on the Leeza show and on Oprah, but figured my HMO would never provide such a thing–it has to be compounded. I have been on the testosterone cream for about 3 months–and my desire is SOOOO much better–not like when I was 20, but at least sex is now a regular activity for us. HTH someone, Nancy To respond via email, delete "nospam" from my address. Please visit the new moderated recovery group at alt.med.fibromyalgia.recovery.info Also, check out the guafenisin group at alt.med.fibromyalgia.guaifenesin Please visit the new group, alt.talk.grandparents.

Response:

I found this message board with posts from pdocs and others talking about how to revive sex drives in depressed patients who lose it through taking anti depressants.  I thought it might be of interest. Dr. Bob’s Psychopharmacology Tips SSRI sexual dysfunction —— I have had good experience withe use of buspirone to reverse SSRI effects on libido and orgasm and find this method to be more useful than other approaches touted in the literature. —— I haven’t had much luck with buspirone reversing sexual dysfunction (I am having better luck with bupropion). —— He responded very well to Prozac. Unfortunately he developed intolerable retarded ejaculation. Bupropion would be a good choice as it seldom causes sexual dysfunction. Trazodone can seldom be given in doses high enough to be effective without being too sedating. If the bupropion does not help, you might consider restarting the Prozac and co-administering buspirone 10-20 mg tid. Buspirone has been reported to protect some men from the sexual side effects of the SSRIs. If the buspirone fails, some other medications that may help sexual function are amantadine and cyproheptadine. —— I have found a number of strategies useful with this type of problem but no one panacea. Sometimes, adding 75 mg of bupropion can make a difference. There has been some success for some of my patients with cyproheptadine 2-4 mg about an hour before sex although most of my colleagues have not been impressed. There is the danger of the anti-serotonin effect with this drug but I have never encountered it. The sedation might also be a problem (since about half the people using antihistamines become sedated). Of course, sedation would be a big problem with trazodone, especially for those of us who favor morning sex. —— Although I haven’t had a report from any patients yet, I’ve heard that nefazodone (Serzone) is similar to bupropion in absence of sexual side effects. —— Either treat the sexual dysfunction secondary to SSRIs with one of the anecdotal treatments, e.g. buspirone 10-20 mg po tid, amantidine, or cyproheptidine, or switch to venlafaxine (in my experience less sexual dysfunction) or bupropion. —— Dr. John Feighner (creater of the Feighner criteria, which led to the RDC and then to DSM-III and IV) states that he has successfully treated SSRI-associated sexual dysfunction in 3 individuals with methylphenidate (Ritalin), 10-30 mg/day. This fits conceptually with reports of the efficacy of amantadine, another dopamine agonist, and with the idea that SSRI-associated apathy (including lowered libido) may be related to dopamine down-regulation. —— I’ve had fairly good (75%, small n) luck with cyproheptadine, 2-4 mg several hours before sex or 2-4 mg TID regularly, for sexual dysfunction/loss of interest with SSRIs. One also can try adding small doses of bupropion to the SSRI for both depression and loss of sexual interest. —— Some of us have had success with telling patients to skip the dose the day of expected sexual acitivity, and that works pretty well with venlafaxine (Effexor) (not a true SSRI, but…) in my experience. I have also noticed that just switching SSRIs can often alleviate the problem. I seem to be seeing that on the Prozac-Zoloft-Paxil axis I can just move a patient from one to another and often clear things up. I’ll bet that is a buggy solution and that my "n" is not large enough to justify any conclusions, but as long as it works I guess I’ll keep going with it. I have also been disappointed that trying to switch my patients to Wellbutrin, now touted for its lack of sexual side effects, doesn’t seem to help many of them. In the really problematic cases, I urge them to give a TCA a trial, because despite some of the other side effects those are still very reliable medications. I just don’t like having that lethal overdose potential and I prefer the rapid onset of action the SSRIs seem to demonstrate. —— My 2 cents’ worth: Lower SSRI dose. Try SSRI vacation on weekends. Add cyproheptadine 4-28 mg 30-60 min prior to sex (if they can stay awake). Add trazodone if problem seems to be erectile failure. Add bupropion 75-100 mg in AM (adrenergic effect seems to help). Switch out of class to therapeutic dose of bupropion, nefazodone, etc. My experience is that switching within class rarely works but is worth try in some cases. Re-think if this is medication side effect, consider work with couple. —— There are a few more psychopharmacologic interventions that are often useful: amantadine 100 mg bid or tid buspirone 5-10 mg tid or qid (may increase desire too) dextroamphetamine 5 mg tid or qid methylphenidate 10 mg tid or qid. —— I’ve also had good luck adding yohimbine, 5.4 mg bid to tid. —— Yohimbine is often effective but may precipitate manic episodes in pholks with bipolar disorder. —— Try adding buspirone (Buspar). Michael Norden recently reported benefits. I have been doing the same for about a year with substantial benefits about 1/2 the time. I use 5 mg bid upped qweek by 5 bid to 20-30 bid total. Usually it takes a couple of weeks to get effects. If the patient is on high dose SSRIs, be careful. One of my patients had a mild serotonin syndrome-like event on Buspar 60/d and Paxil 60/day. It is also helpful to be more specific about the sexual side effects. Decreased libido and ejaculatory latency are different phenomena and the latter may respond better to Buspar addition. In addition, many (maybe most) men on SSRIs report decreased masturbation frequency. But this does not necessarily indicate sexual dysfunction — since on closer questioning, many of these same men report intact erotic responsiveness to external sexual stimuli. —— One thing to consider is whether you can lower the dose of the SSRI. That was helpful for three of my female patients. Another female patient did well with cyproheptadine (Periactin) though it cut down on spontaneity. —— My experience with SSRIs is that they [can] cause decreased libido as well as anorgasmia. Personally, I believe that the problems are rather difficult to treat. I have had little success with adding Periactin, Buspar or Wellbutrin. I have found that more often than not I am forced to lower the SSRI or stop it completely when the patient complains about these side effects. —— I have found that loss of sex drive in depressed patients often occurs separately from the symptom of diminished libido that is part of depression. The … read more »

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Question:

Hi Sherri.  I was here about two years ago and now I’m back.  But I don’t feel depressed.  Right now, I should add.  I take prozac and I am also 28. Depression is pretty much a biweekly battle for me (meaning, every two weeks, it tries to take me down). – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was here about a year ago, looking for some support for this horrible feeling. Now I’m back. I don’t think this will ever go away. Sometimes giving in sounds much better.  From some of your post you know what i mean. I was really gone last year at this time, but I’m feeling better now. Who knows about tomorrow. Well anyway I really would like to get to know some of you. But I really don’t know how to start. I was wondering how many woman verses men there are that  suffer  from depression. And also the age. I’m wondering if you fell the same as I do. Are most of you taking medication? If so what do you take, and are you getting better? I’ve probably taken about 15 different kinds. I feel like I’m riding a roller coaster ride that makes me sick. UP Down UP DOWN   Hopefully you can answer some of my questions. Anxiously awaiting you reply.                 Sherri

Response:

Note: the following sweeping generalizations are based on my opinion and experience, not on anything scientifically reliable, like a Cosmo quiz or Glamour poll Realize that Men Don’t Cry

Question:

    Recently I read a study on sibutramine (Meridia).  I had read several others, but not recently.  In this study patients on 5 mg lost more weight than those on placebo.  Patients taking 20 mg lost far more than those taking 5 mg or placebo.  All patients were consuming structured diets, using behavioral modification, and mild exercise.     My question is this: since the drug appears useful in weight reduction (which I guess it’d have to be, to have ever been approved) why are so many people not seeing results with it?  I know a few people have seen results, but the majority, myself included, have been disappointed.     Why would prior phen-fen use make one less likely to benefit from Meridia (which seems to be the common opinion)?  I only took Meridia for 4 weeks; I didn’t want to fork out that much money for another month if it wasn’t doing anything.  Do the effects increase with time?  The study I refer to was only a 12-week study, although none of the participants  were currently using other meds, so phen users would have been excluded from the study.     Any ideas? Adria

Response:

I’ve been on 10mg per day of Meridia for two weeks and I’ve lost 8 pounds. As a purely subjective speculation, I wonder if it may be effective for so few people because it may work on just a single cause of obesity, that being due to an out-of-whack appetite. For as long as I can remember I’ve been able to look at what most people would consider a normal sized portion of food and know before I ever start eating that my appetite won’t be satisfied until I eat two or three times that amount. This is even more of a problem with sweet and/or fatty foods than it is with things like fruits and vegetables. I also tend to think about food very frequently throughout the day and as a result eat frequent snacks. This is independent of habit, mood, emotional or physical condition or any other variable I can think of. The bottom line is I just seem to be hard-wired to overeat. The Meridia seems to have almost magically "reset" my perception of how much food is enough. I prepare small portions of relatively healthful, varied kinds of foods, and even though sometimes my stomach feels physically hungry, I can easily resist what is now a much weakened urge to snack or overeat. And although it’s a distant secondary consideration, the price of the medication is a motivating factor, too! I’d hate to be spending so much money on something that turned out to be ineffective. Of course I realize 2 weeks isn’t very long, but since my doctor is concerned about my gradually but steadily increasing blood pressure and has told me a weight loss of even 10 or 20 pounds will likely prevent my having to control it with medication, even the weight I’ve already lost is of beneft.

<most of reply snipped – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -4) In the Meridia studies, patients did the best on the larger doses (20 and 30 mg), but the blood pressure results were unacceptable. The largest dose Knoll could get approved was 15 mg. Of the surveys I’ve gotten (something like 300 of them), I’d say about 80 percent of the people were not satisfied with the results they got. Barbara Barbara Hirsch, Publisher Obesity Meds and Research News OMR Web Site: http://www.obesity-news.com

Response:

   Why would prior phen-fen use make one less likely to benefit from Meridia (which seems to be the common opinion)?  

Here are a few reasons: 1) Phentermine and fenfluramine are releasers and reuptake inhibitors, Meridia is only a reuptake inhibitor of norepinephrine and serotonin. 2) Phentermine works on dopamine, whereas Meridia has a very small action on dopamine (which is one of the reasons some folks get sleepy on it). 3) Most people develop some what of a tolerance to obesity medications after a while. So if you develop a tolerance,  and you start taking a weaker drug, you are likely to see poor results. Of course, every one’s receptors are different, and YMMV. 4) In the Meridia studies, patients did the best on the larger doses (20 and 30 mg), but the blood pressure results were unacceptable. The largest dose Knoll could get approved was 15 mg. Of the surveys I’ve gotten (something like 300 of them), I’d say about 80 percent of the people were not satisfied with the results they got. Barbara Barbara Hirsch, Publisher Obesity Meds and Research News OMR Web Site: http://www.obesity-news.com

Response:

I’ve been on 10mg per day of Meridia for two weeks and I’ve lost 8 pounds. As a purely subjective speculation, I wonder if it may be effective for so few people because it may work on just a single cause of obesity, that being due to an out-of-whack appetite.

Meridia doesn’t work on any cause of obesity, it’s an appetite suppressant, and the serotonin component *may* help with OCD. But the jury is still out on that. But phen/fen didn’t work on a cause of obesity either. At this point in time researchers conclude that a variety of "susceptibility genes" cause people to be obese. The only way you could accurately treat an obese person is by knowing what those genes were, and then develop drugs or gene therapy to treat. We are many, many years from that point. I can easily resist what is now a much weakened urge to snack or overeat. And although it’s a distant secondary consideration, the price of the medication is a motivating factor, too! I’d hate to be spending so much money on something that turned out to be ineffective.

I’m glad it’s working for you. There’s no arguing with success <G! Of course I realize 2 weeks isn’t very long

No it isn’t. Let me know how you feel in another six months. If you still think it’s effective. Barbara Barbara Hirsch, Publisher Obesity Meds and Research News OMR Web Site: http://www.obesity-news.com

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –    Recently I read a study on sibutramine (Meridia).  I had read several others, but not recently.  In this study patients on 5 mg lost more weight than those on placebo.  Patients taking 20 mg lost far more than those taking 5 mg or placebo.  All patients were consuming structured diets, using behavioral modification, and mild exercise.    My question is this: since the drug appears useful in weight reduction (which I guess it’d have to be, to have ever been approved) why are so many people not seeing results with it?  I know a few people have seen results, but the majority, myself included, have been disappointed.    Why would prior phen-fen use make one less likely to benefit from Meridia (which seems to be the common opinion)?  I only took Meridia for 4 weeks; I didn’t want to fork out that much money for another month if it wasn’t doing anything.  Do the effects increase with time?  The study I refer to was only a 12-week study, although none of the participants  were currently using other meds, so phen users would have been excluded from the study.

My own belief is that the mechanisms involved are quite different.  If you were having success with phen/fen, this points heavily in the direction of problems with serotonin levels (Phen increases the release of serotonin, fen slows down the reabsobtion).  Meridia does not greatly affect the serotonin levels – it works (when it works) in other ways.  So it PROBABLY would be true in the other direction as well – IF you are helped by Meridia the odds would be good that Phen/Fen wouldn’t help you much (if you could get it).

Response:

My own belief is that the mechanisms involved are quite different.  If you were having success with phen/fen, this points heavily in the direction of problems with serotonin levels (Phen increases the release of serotonin, fen slows down the reabsobtion).

Phentermine is thought to act by releasing dopamine and retarding its reuptake.  I’ve never heard of it affecting serotonin. Meridia does not greatly affect the serotonin levels – it works (when it works) in other ways.

Siburamine is, like venlafaxine (Effexor), a NE/SRI, reducing the reuptake of both norepinephrine and serotonin. — Steve Dyer

Response:

Harold, I read what you wrote about Phentermine. You got it all wrong. I’d suggest reading the articles on Phentermine on the web site for Rx on the Internet. Love your Dutch name. I am Dutch also.   John Bowen   Nipomo, California   http://www.thegrid.net/jhbowen/life.htm  "Too bad the only people who know how to run this country are too   busy driving cabs and cutting hair." — George Burns

Response:

phentermine releases stored norepinephrine. Main site of activity appears to be thecerebral cortex and the reticular activating system. Promotes nerve impulse transmissions by releasing stored norepinephrine from nerve terminals in the  brain.

I always understood amphetamine, phentermine and the like worked (to the extent that we know how any of these drugs "work") by enhancing the release and reducing the reuptake of dopamine, not NE. — Steve Dyer

Response:

phentermine releases stored norepinephrine. Main site of activity appears to be thecerebral cortex and the reticular activating system. Promotes nerve impulse transmissions by releasing stored norepinephrine from nerve terminals in the  brain.

Response:

Steve, Since sibutramine inhibits re-uptake of serotonin and dopamine, do you think that Wellbutrin (buproprion) would also work for weight loss since it is a dopamine-reuptake inhibitor?   Thanks! Cindy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – phentermine releases stored norepinephrine. Main site of activity appears to be thecerebral cortex and the reticular activating system. Promotes nerve impulse transmissions by releasing stored norepinephrine from nerve terminals in the  brain. I always understood amphetamine, phentermine and the like worked (to the extent that we know how any of these drugs "work") by enhancing the release and reducing the reuptake of dopamine, not NE. — Steve Dyer

Response:

Since sibutramine inhibits re-uptake of serotonin and dopamine, do you

Serotonin and norepinephrine. think that Wellbutrin (buproprion) would also work for weight loss since it is a dopamine-reuptake inhibitor?  

Although bupropion is one of the few antidepressants that rarely causes weight gain, and often causes a slight amount of weight loss in people taking it for depression, and even though it’s chemically related to the anorectic drug diethylpropion (Tenuate), I don’t think it’s a very powerful drug when it comes to weight loss. — Steve Dyer

Response:

If one is already taking Prozac, is it safe to try Meridia? I used Fen/Phen and Prozac successfully with no side affects and had good results in  weight loss, FM pain relief, and depression control. My doctor is recommending Meridia, but would like to have me discontinue the Prozac, I’m worried about removing the Prozac. Have been advised by other doctors not to stop taking it because of previous "crashes" following attempts to come off it.

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If one is already taking Prozac, is it safe to try Meridia?

Meridia product info specifically states "no Prozac." My doctor said the same thing. Weening off Prozac should help "crashes." This is conjecture…I "crashed" big time 4 weeks after stopping cold (only 20mg dose/day). It was not fun, but only lasted about 2 weeks. Waited another week before starting Meridia and am not having any difficulty. I used Fen/Phen and Prozac successfully with no side affects and had good results in  weight loss, FM pain relief, and depression control. My doctor is recommending Meridia, but would like to have me discontinue the Prozac, I’m worried about removing the Prozac. Have been advised by other doctors not to stop taking it because of previous "crashes" following attempts to come off it.

– Mary

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I don’t know about Meridia, but if it’s like Phentermine you CAN’T take Prozac with it. Please refer to an MIT study posted at: http://drugawareness.org/MIT.html Appetite suppressants are MAO inhibitors and cause an internal battlefield when paired with anti-depressant drugs such as Prozac (or fenfluramine, the phen/fen combo we all know and love.) From the article: "Maher said that the information that appears on drug labels, in the   Physician’s Desk Reference and on package inserts that reach   consumers is negotiated between the manufacturer and the    FDA."When the labels for phentermine and Sudafed were negotiated,    their MAO inhibitory activity was not known or appreciated or    considered to be important. And apparently there was no requirement    for phentermine’s label to be updated 20 years ago when it was first    shown to be an MAO inhibitor," he said.    The new findings also probably explain why only a handful of the tens     of millions of patients outside America who took drugs in the     fenfluramine family without phentermine developed pulmonary     hypertension or heart valve lesions, and almost all of these people were     also taking other drugs that we have found are unrecognized MAO      inhibitors," he said." So, my advice would be to find out if Meridia (like all other appetite suppresants is an MAO inhibitor). If so, Prozac and Meridia can be a dangerous combination. Good luck – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If one is already taking Prozac, is it safe to try Meridia? Meridia product info specifically states "no Prozac." My doctor said the same thing. Weening off Prozac should help "crashes." This is conjecture…I "crashed" big time 4 weeks after stopping cold (only 20mg dose/day). It was not fun, but only lasted about 2 weeks. Waited another week before starting Meridia and am not having any difficulty. I used Fen/Phen and Prozac successfully with no side affects and had good results in  weight loss, FM pain relief, and depression control. My doctor is recommending Meridia, but would like to have me discontinue the Prozac, I’m worried about removing the Prozac. Have been advised by other doctors not to stop taking it because of previous "crashes" following attempts to come off it. — Mary

Response:

I don’t know about Meridia, but if it’s like Phentermine you CAN’T take Prozac with it.

There’s no absolute contraindication in taking phentermine with Prozac. Please refer to an MIT study posted at: http://drugawareness.org/MIT.html Appetite suppressants are MAO inhibitors and cause an internal battlefield when paired with anti-depressant drugs such as Prozac (or fenfluramine, the phen/fen combo we all know and love.)

Appetite suppressants like amphetamine and phentermine are "MAO inhibitors" only in an extremely restricted sense; one with unproven clinical relevance, despite the claims on that web page. The reason you wouldn’t want to take Prozac and Meridia together is that they both act as serotonin-reuptake inhibitors (with Meridia also acting as a norepinephrine-reuptake inhibitor.) — Steve Dyer

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