Question:

try getting doc to Rx Nystatin Mouthswish – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have been using Flovent 220(oral corticosteroid) for about a year and swishing as directed but I continue to have some level of thrush in my mouth. I use water and Scope mouthwash. Anyone have a better idea? Thanks Jack

Response:

: : doesn’t even really work), get my Dr. to prescribe an oral dose of 150 : mg Diflucan, a anti-fungal designed to treat women’s yeast infections, : but it works wickedly well on my thrush too.  My Dr. has now given me a : standing prescription for Diflucan. Good luck….. : and when the Diflucan stops working, there is a swish and swallow called Fungizone…tastes awful, but it works — Peace, Tish Dreaming permits each and every one of us to be quietly and safely insane every night of our lives.-Charles Fisher

Response:

Mycelex Troches (5/day) works every time for me.  I can’t take the oral anti-fungals because they crank up the liver enzymes! Jan

Response:

Has anyone else tried apple cider vinegar for candida thrush? when i use it works great (although i don’t always use it) either rinse with applecider vinegar and water or rinse with water than drink a glass of water with apple cider vinegar and honey. Catriona

Response:

I have been using Flovent 220(oral corticosteroid) for about a year and swishing as directed but I continue to have some level of thrush in my mouth. I use water and Scope mouthwash. Anyone have a better idea? Thanks Jack

Jack, I constantly have/had problems with thrush from my oral steroids until I hit upon the following combination….  – rinse my mouth twice daily with 2 drops of tea tree oil in water (warning, tea tree oil seems to trigger some asthmatics)  – eat at least 250 grams (small container) of yougurt with natural bifidalfous (sp?) bacteria in it daily.   You can get these bacteria in "capsule" form from drug stores and health food stores as acidophus.   — every 4 weeks when this regieme breaks down (who knows, maybe it doesn’t even really work), get my Dr. to prescribe an oral dose of 150 mg Diflucan, a anti-fungal designed to treat women’s yeast infections, but it works wickedly well on my thrush too.  My Dr. has now given me a standing prescription for Diflucan. Good luck…..

Response:

Although Flovent worked well for me, I had constant thrush, even if I rinsed with water and mouthwash immediately.  My doctor switched me to Pulmicort, which is a breath activated dry powder inhaler.  Although I still occasionally get thrush, it has not been as bad as Flovent.  And Pulmicort seems to work.  No attacks since October, and I had been having one every two months. ALS – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have been using Flovent 220(oral corticosteroid) for about a year and swishing as directed but I continue to have some level of thrush in my mouth. I use water and Scope mouthwash. Anyone have a better idea? Thanks Jack

Response:

writes I have been using Flovent 220(oral corticosteroid) for about a year and swishing as directed but I continue to have some level of thrush in my mouth. I use water and Scope mouthwash. Anyone have a better idea?

Talk to your doctor about using a spacer for the Flovent (I’m assuming that it’s an MDI type) – that may help prevent further bouts of thrush once you’ve got it under control. In the meantime, try an anti-fungal mouthwash – if your doctor can’t recommend one, see what your dentist can come up with ! Chris — Chris King                    | Information provided here should NOT be used http://www.csking.demon.co.uk | practitioner.

Response:

I have been using Flovent 220(oral corticosteroid) for about a year and swishing as directed but I continue to have some level of thrush in my mouth. I use water and Scope mouthwash. Anyone have a better idea? Thanks Jack

Response:

Question:

WK, Now that you’re getting some relief with Xanax, are you going to try getting back into the work world?  Considering how long you’ve had to stay away, you might want to check with your local gov’t., your doctor, whoever, to see if there is "dept." set up to help people with mental disabilities re-enter the work force.  I’d like to say that potential employers will probably just gloss over your 2 year absence, but that’s unlikely.  Sad to say, but there’s still tons of ignorance and some stigma attached to having a disorder.  Anyway, getting back to some sort of go between organization, if it exists, (and I know it does in some states in the U.S.), such a dept. can smooth the waters some in locating employers who’re interested in what you can do and will have been properly briefed that you have an anxiety disorder, but are being treated for it.  Something else to think about, and you may already be doing this, is that for an interview or any particularly stressful event, I’ve found that taking an extra dose or two of Xanax all at once just before the ordeal can make it a lot less stressful. I had to experiment some to find the right amount and you may too (not enuf vs. too much).  Good luck. Doug On 2 Feb 2002 22:19:52 -0800, vegasrules…@yahoo.com (White Knight) wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

I am sick and tired about all these posts trying to scare people away from trying xanax.  As someone who has suffered from bipolar disorder(type 2) for 15 years, tried all the antidepressants, now on a cocktail of meds, including xanax and paxil, my experience is that PAXIL has many more adverse effects versus the marginal benefit of some anxiety relief.  I took Paxil for 5 months and was not taking any xanax, and I got some anticapation anxiety relief at the cost of NO LIBIDO, sleeping 12 hours a day, having no motivation, just didn’t give a shit, already gained 10 pounds in 5 months with the carbo craving…..And people want to talk about xanax dependency and problems with withdrawl.  I am not trying to minimize people’s experience or their pain, but with anxiety or other mental health issues, the word is YOUR MILEAGE MAY VARY(YMMY).  I am a college graduate in electrical engineering from a top 5 engineering college, and now have not worked for over two years mostly because of anxiety and some depression yearly.  After working for 11 years struggling with depression and anxiety, I now have a hard time stepping outside my home.  I have considered suicide 1000’s of times over the last 15 years, actually researched and made the plans and was about to end it, and then I started on the Paxil…….Yeah, my suicidal obsessions went away, but now I was content to veg out all day watching TY or on the Net, my desire to GET A JOB disappeared.  Go research web sites and you will see how many people have problems with SSRI’s, yeah they are alive and taking that $3 pill two times a day or many $3 pills for me, but now I am NUMB and just there.  Prior to Paxil I use to be a emotional person, felt the pain of others and would cry when touched by something, but now I am a Paxil-zombie, yeah some anxiety relief but a LOT OF ME is also gone.  So all those xanax phobics, please allow people to fail with their options without scaring them.  What are people’s choices when it comes to anxiety or panic, yes paxil, yes benzo’s, yes MAIO’s, yes CBT(Cognitive Behavior Therapy).  My experience is PAXIL SUCKS and THE WITHDRAWAL IS HORRIBLE BASED ON MUCH FEEDBACK I HAVE READ ON THE NET, MAIO’S like parnate have some studies that back them up but the food restrictions are VERY DIFFICULT(no cheese, wine, beer, chocolate, many OTC meds, etc.), CBT might work for some but the feedback I have heard is that CBT plus meds work the best and I HAVE DONE THE THERAPY ROUTE and it was a waste of money. As one doctor told me, people who suffer from PANIC and think they are dieing have never been told that "your not going to die, it is all in your head"…Well that was my last session with him.  Just to repeat, this is MY EXPERIENCE and YOUR MILEAGE MAY VARY.  Now I could continue to HIBERNATE IN MY HOUSE, NOT WORK, RUN OUT OF MONEY AND THEN BE HOMELESS…..Or I can be proactive and continue to experiment and try to find some solution that will allow me to work and have a life.  I have taken xanax in the past, just started it one month ago, still taking a low dose of paxil, and I am MUCH MUCH BETTER at dealing with day to day life, interacting with people, giving my shit done, etc. Yeah, maybe I will be taking xanax for the rest of my life but the only side effect I have had is some sleepiness.  And to those who talk about TOLERANCE BUILDUP, that is a CROCK, yes you might have to increase your xanax from .25mg 3 times a day to .50mg 3 times a day, or even 1mg 3 times a day……..The fact is that people level out, there are people who have taken xanax for 5 to 15 years and most leveled out after 1 year at a dose and have no desire to increase. People need to do some research and FIND OUT THE REAL TRUTH, not what BIG PHARMA and BIG BUSINESS OWNED MEDIA OUTLETS want us to believe. Not to be cynical, but $3 no generic available paxil is much better for DRUG COMPANIES, then CHEAP GENERIC XANAX which might be more effective with less side-effects.  Why are benzo’s so hard to get, cause drug lobbiest have access to CONGRESS and made sure that THE NO-PROFIT SOLUTIONS(IE LIKE BENZO’S) are not readily available. Let me make THE NEWCOMERS TO MENTAL ILLNESS aware that HYPE ABOUT THE LATEST ANTIDEPRESSANT HAS EVERYTHING TO DO WITH THE BILLIONS OF DOLLARS THAT WILL BE MADE ON THE DRUG, and the only time you will hear about THE NEGATIVES about that drug will be when it comes off-patent. Now that we have generic prozac, we will hear more about side effects like NO LIBIDO, WEIGHT GAIN, SUICIDE, AND OTHER  EFEECTS.  Of course, as long as Paxil and Zoloft have no generics, MEDIA HYPE will be still muted, but give it time.  Just as all the SSRI’s go generic, we will hear about ALL THE NEGATIVES and out will come the new batch of 8 TO 12 WEEK STUDIED ANTIDEPRESSANTS to start the new profit cycle.  People with mental illness are just pawns, half ass useless meds are approved based on 8 week studies, NO REASON FOR A LONG TERM STUDY, we really don’t want to KNOW THE TRUTH, and as soon as the generics start rolling out, OUT COMES THE DIRTY LAUNDRY, not to HELP US, NO, ONLY SO THAT WE GO ON THE LATEST $5 PILL THAT HAS A 80% SUCCESS RATE AND EVEN LESS SIDE EFFECTS.  Hell as long as everyone is making money, who cares about THE CRAZIES that take the product, we just need them alive and taking their meds.  Now I forget, was I taking about the cigarette industry or drug companies, HELL WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE.  This of course is just the opinion of a mentally ill patient with 15 years of experience popping pills, all of which have a 70% effective rate, but I guess I am the exception, "ALIVE" AND NOT SUICIDAL, AND NOT HAPPY ABOUT IT. White Knight

Response:

White Knight wrote:

I am sick and tired about all these posts trying to scare people away from trying xanax.  As someone who has suffered from bipolar disorder(type 2) for 15 years, tried all the antidepressants, now on a cocktail of meds, including xanax and paxil, my experience is that PAXIL has many more adverse effects versus the marginal benefit of some anxiety relief.  I took Paxil for 5 months and was not taking any xanax, and I got some anticapation anxiety relief at the cost of NO

Which posts? Anyway do you get pre, during and post anxiety or just anticipation and during anxiety? Cause I get all three and am curious about your experience. I the amount I get of each one depends on the situation. Richard — Registered Lunatic #100347

Response:

I..Am..A..Paxil..Zom Bie..You..Need..To Chill..Out..Man.. Simon. "White Knight" <vegasrules…@yahoo.com

wrote in message

news:28eafa9a.0202022219.7ee7d068@posting.google.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

I am sick and tired about all these posts trying to scare people away from trying xanax.  As someone who has suffered from bipolar disorder(type 2) for 15 years, tried all the antidepressants, now on a cocktail of meds, including xanax and paxil, my experience is that PAXIL has many more adverse effects versus the marginal benefit of some anxiety relief.  I took Paxil for 5 months and was not taking any xanax, and I got some anticapation anxiety relief at the cost of NO LIBIDO, sleeping 12 hours a day, having no motivation, just didn’t give a shit, already gained 10 pounds in 5 months with the carbo craving…..And people want to talk about xanax dependency and problems with withdrawl.  I am not trying to minimize people’s experience or their pain, but with anxiety or other mental health issues, the word is YOUR MILEAGE MAY VARY(YMMY).  I am a college graduate in electrical engineering from a top 5 engineering college, and now have not worked for over two years mostly because of anxiety and some depression yearly.  After working for 11 years struggling with depression and anxiety, I now have a hard time stepping outside my home.  I have considered suicide 1000’s of times over the last 15 years, actually researched and made the plans and was about to end it, and then I started on the Paxil…….Yeah, my suicidal obsessions went away, but now I was content to veg out all day watching TY or on the Net, my desire to GET A JOB disappeared.  Go research web sites and you will see how many people have problems with SSRI’s, yeah they are alive and taking that $3 pill two times a day or many $3 pills for me, but now I am NUMB and just there.  Prior to Paxil I use to be a emotional person, felt the pain of others and would cry when touched by something, but now I am a Paxil-zombie, yeah some anxiety relief but a LOT OF ME is also gone.  So all those xanax phobics, please allow people to fail with their options without scaring them.  What are people’s choices when it comes to anxiety or panic, yes paxil, yes benzo’s, yes MAIO’s, yes CBT(Cognitive Behavior Therapy).  My experience is PAXIL SUCKS and THE WITHDRAWAL IS HORRIBLE BASED ON MUCH FEEDBACK I HAVE READ ON THE NET, MAIO’S like parnate have some studies that back them up but the food restrictions are VERY DIFFICULT(no cheese, wine, beer, chocolate, many OTC meds, etc.), CBT might work for some but the feedback I have heard is that CBT plus meds work the best and I HAVE DONE THE THERAPY ROUTE and it was a waste of money. As one doctor told me, people who suffer from PANIC and think they are dieing have never been told that "your not going to die, it is all in your head"…Well that was my last session with him.  Just to repeat, this is MY EXPERIENCE and YOUR MILEAGE MAY VARY.  Now I could continue to HIBERNATE IN MY HOUSE, NOT WORK, RUN OUT OF MONEY AND THEN BE HOMELESS…..Or I can be proactive and continue to experiment and try to find some solution that will allow me to work and have a life.  I have taken xanax in the past, just started it one month ago, still taking a low dose of paxil, and I am MUCH MUCH BETTER at dealing with day to day life, interacting with people, giving my shit done, etc. Yeah, maybe I will be taking xanax for the rest of my life but the only side effect I have had is some sleepiness.  And to those who talk about TOLERANCE BUILDUP, that is a CROCK, yes you might have to increase your xanax from .25mg 3 times a day to .50mg 3 times a day, or even 1mg 3 times a day……..The fact is that people level out, there are people who have taken xanax for 5 to 15 years and most leveled out after 1 year at a dose and have no desire to increase. People need to do some research and FIND OUT THE REAL TRUTH, not what BIG PHARMA and BIG BUSINESS OWNED MEDIA OUTLETS want us to believe. Not to be cynical, but $3 no generic available paxil is much better for DRUG COMPANIES, then CHEAP GENERIC XANAX which might be more effective with less side-effects.  Why are benzo’s so hard to get, cause drug lobbiest have access to CONGRESS and made sure that THE NO-PROFIT SOLUTIONS(IE LIKE BENZO’S) are not readily available. Let me make THE NEWCOMERS TO MENTAL ILLNESS aware that HYPE ABOUT THE LATEST ANTIDEPRESSANT HAS EVERYTHING TO DO WITH THE BILLIONS OF DOLLARS THAT WILL BE MADE ON THE DRUG, and the only time you will hear about THE NEGATIVES about that drug will be when it comes off-patent. Now that we have generic prozac, we will hear more about side effects like NO LIBIDO, WEIGHT GAIN, SUICIDE, AND OTHER  EFEECTS.  Of course, as long as Paxil and Zoloft have no generics, MEDIA HYPE will be still muted, but give it time.  Just as all the SSRI’s go generic, we will hear about ALL THE NEGATIVES and out will come the new batch of 8 TO 12 WEEK STUDIED ANTIDEPRESSANTS to start the new profit cycle.  People with mental illness are just pawns, half ass useless meds are approved based on 8 week studies, NO REASON FOR A LONG TERM STUDY, we really don’t want to KNOW THE TRUTH, and as soon as the generics start rolling out, OUT COMES THE DIRTY LAUNDRY, not to HELP US, NO, ONLY SO THAT WE GO ON THE LATEST $5 PILL THAT HAS A 80% SUCCESS RATE AND EVEN LESS SIDE EFFECTS.  Hell as long as everyone is making money, who cares about THE CRAZIES that take the product, we just need them alive and taking their meds.  Now I forget, was I taking about the cigarette industry or drug companies, HELL WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE.  This of course is just the opinion of a mentally ill patient with 15 years of experience popping pills, all of which have a 70% effective rate, but I guess I am the exception, "ALIVE" AND NOT SUICIDAL, AND NOT HAPPY ABOUT IT. White Knight

Response:

I am sick and tired about all these posts trying to scare people away from trying xanax.  As someone who has suffered from bipolar disorder(type 2) for 15 years, tried all the antidepressants, now on a cocktail of meds, including xanax and paxil, my experience is that PAXIL has many more adverse effects versus the marginal benefit of some anxiety relief.  I took Paxil for 5 months and was not taking any xanax, and I got some anticapation anxiety relief at the cost of NO LIBIDO, sleeping 12 hours a day, having no motivation, just didn’t give a shit, already gained 10 pounds in 5 months with the carbo craving…..And people want to talk about xanax dependency and problems with withdrawl.  I am not trying to minimize people’s experience or their pain, but with anxiety or other mental health issues, the word is YOUR MILEAGE MAY VARY(YMMY).  I am a college graduate in electrical engineering from a top 5 engineering college, and now have not worked for over two years mostly because of anxiety and some depression yearly.  After working for 11 years struggling with depression and anxiety, I now have a hard time stepping outside my home.  I have considered suicide 1000’s of times over the last 15 years, actually researched and made the plans and was about to end it, and then I started on the Paxil…….Yeah, my suicidal obsessions went away, but now I was content to veg out all day watching TY or on the Net, my desire to GET A JOB disappeared.  Go research web sites and you will see how many people have problems with SSRI’s, yeah they are alive and taking that $3 pill two times a day or many $3 pills for me, but now I am NUMB and just there.  Prior to Paxil I use to be a emotional person, felt the pain of others and would cry when touched by something, but now I am a Paxil-zombie, yeah some anxiety relief but a LOT OF ME is also gone.  So all those xanax phobics, please allow people to fail with their options without scaring them.  What are people’s choices when it comes to anxiety or panic, yes paxil, yes benzo’s, yes MAIO’s, yes CBT(Cognitive Behavior Therapy).  My experience is PAXIL SUCKS and THE WITHDRAWAL IS HORRIBLE BASED ON MUCH FEEDBACK I HAVE READ ON THE NET, MAIO’S like parnate have some studies that back them up but the food restrictions are VERY DIFFICULT(no cheese, wine, beer, chocolate, many OTC meds, etc.), CBT might work for some but the feedback I have heard is that CBT plus meds work the best and I HAVE DONE THE THERAPY ROUTE and it was a waste of money. As one doctor told me, people who suffer from PANIC and think they are dieing have never been told that "your not going to die, it is all in your head"…Well that was my last session with him.  Just to repeat, this is MY EXPERIENCE and YOUR MILEAGE MAY VARY.  Now I could continue to HIBERNATE IN MY HOUSE, NOT WORK, RUN OUT OF MONEY AND THEN BE HOMELESS…..Or I can be proactive and continue to experiment and try to find some solution that will allow me to work and have a life.  I have taken xanax in the past, just started it one month ago, still taking a low dose of paxil, and I am MUCH MUCH BETTER at dealing with day to day life, interacting with people, giving my shit done, etc. Yeah, maybe I will be taking xanax for the rest of my life but the only side effect I have had is some sleepiness.  And to those who talk about TOLERANCE BUILDUP, that is a CROCK, yes you might have to increase your xanax from .25mg 3 times a day to .50mg 3 times a day, or even 1mg 3 times a day……..The fact is that people level out, there are people who have taken xanax for 5 to 15 years and most leveled out after 1 year at a dose and have no desire to increase. People need to do some research and FIND OUT THE REAL TRUTH, not what BIG PHARMA and BIG BUSINESS OWNED MEDIA OUTLETS want us to believe. Not to be cynical, but $3 no generic available paxil is much better for DRUG COMPANIES, then CHEAP GENERIC XANAX which might be more effective with less side-effects.  Why are benzo’s so hard to get, cause drug lobbiest have access to CONGRESS and made sure that THE NO-PROFIT SOLUTIONS(IE LIKE BENZO’S) are not readily available. Let me make THE NEWCOMERS TO MENTAL ILLNESS aware that HYPE ABOUT THE LATEST ANTIDEPRESSANT HAS EVERYTHING TO DO WITH THE BILLIONS OF DOLLARS THAT WILL BE MADE ON THE DRUG, and the only time you will hear about THE NEGATIVES about that drug will be when it comes off-patent. Now that we have generic prozac, we will hear more about side effects like NO LIBIDO, WEIGHT GAIN, SUICIDE, AND OTHER  EFEECTS.  Of course, as long as Paxil and Zoloft have no generics, MEDIA HYPE will be still muted, but give it time.  Just as all the SSRI’s go generic, we will hear about ALL THE NEGATIVES and out will come the new batch of 8 TO 12 WEEK STUDIED ANTIDEPRESSANTS to start the new profit cycle.  People with mental illness are just pawns, half ass useless meds are approved based on 8 week studies, NO REASON FOR A LONG TERM STUDY, we really don’t want to KNOW THE TRUTH, and as soon as the generics start rolling out, OUT COMES THE DIRTY LAUNDRY, not to HELP US, NO, ONLY SO THAT WE GO ON THE LATEST $5 PILL THAT HAS A 80% SUCCESS RATE AND EVEN LESS SIDE EFFECTS.  Hell as long as everyone is making money, who cares about THE CRAZIES that take the product, we just need them alive and taking their meds.  Now I forget, was I taking about the cigarette industry or drug companies, HELL WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE.  This of course is just the opinion of a mentally ill patient with 15 years of experience popping pills, all of which have a 70% effective rate, but I guess I am the exception, "ALIVE" AND NOT SUICIDAL, AND NOT HAPPY ABOUT IT. White Knight

Response:

Question:

In most cases in Canada, people would have great difficulty in obtaining their pilots license if they have multiple sclerosis.  This would be especially true if they have any symptoms or problems with balance or difficulty multitasking and making quick life-and-death decisions because of cognitive effects.  PwMS would almost certainly have to appeal to the minister regarding their medical fitness and I doubt whether there would be many exceptions.  It is not a matter of money for training or being able to pass a flight test on a good day. The United States is much more liberal in their licensing of aircraft and pilots as evidenced by the many U.S. pilots who would stop at the border between Alaska and the Yukon to fly from Alaska south following the Alaska Highway using road maps instead of proper aeronautical charts.  This statement is not third hand but rather based on my personal inspection of many of these aircraft and pilots. Many of these pilots were helicopter pilots in Vietnam. Buying an aircraft from Alaska would guarantee years of headaches and expanse with Transport Canada as many of the aircraft in Alaska are maintained or rebuilt by their owners who are not certified aircraft mechanics keeping very detailed log books of dating from the time of manufacture (often 30 or 40 years) as required in Canada.  I checked into it in a lot of detail as I was considering buying a small plane from a friend of mine who as a state trooper in Alaska and had a small airplane with tundra tires and a stall kit for landing in taking off on gravel bars along remote rivers. If you have never been to mainland Alaska, your first observation would probably be all the small aircraft in small fields in the middle of nowhere.  I think the airfield is called Taylor Field near Anchorage and I believe that it had around 5000 private aircraft sitting there when I first saw it around 1980. The following are some of the regulations regarding pilots licenses and medical examinations in Canada. Prohibition Regarding Exercise of Privileges 404.06 (1) Subject to subsection (3), no holder of a permit, licence or rating shall exercise the privileges of the permit, licence or rating if (a) one of the following circumstances exists and could impair the holder’s ability to exercise those privileges safely: (i) the holder suffers from an illness, injury or disability, (ii) the holder is taking a drug, or (iii) the holder is receiving medical treatment; (b) the holder has been involved in an aircraft accident that is wholly or partially the result of any of the circumstances referred to in paragraph (a); (c) the holder has entered the thirtieth week of pregnancy, unless the medical certificate is issued in connection with an air traffic controller licence, in which case the holder may exercise the privileges of the permit, licence or rating until the onset of labour; or (d) the holder has given birth in the preceding six weeks. Division IV – MedicalMinister’s Assessment 404.11 (1) The Minister shall assess any medical reports submitted pursuant to paragraph 404.17(b) to determine whether an applicant for the issuance or renewal of a medical certificate meets the medical fitness requirements set out in the personnel licensing standards that are necessary for the issuance or renewal of the medical certificate Reconsideration of Assessment 404.12 (1) An applicant for the renewal of a medical certificate who is assessed by the Minister as not meeting the requirements referred to in subsection 404.11(1) may, within 30 days after the date that the applicant receives the notification referred to in subsection 404.11(2), (a) request the Minister to reconsider the assessment; and (b) submit additional information to the Minister regarding the medical fitness of the applicant in support of the request. — Larry rather than building character, adversity tends to reveal it written with voice recognition software

Response:

I drive a car with hand controls and a while back, looked into flying lessons for the handicapped. I never read anything about MSers not being able to get pilots licenses, but the cost of lessons is PROHIBITIVE! Since I just spent $31,000 on a new car, an airplane isn’t in my budget now, but flying is really intriguing to me.

Response:

On 15 Jul 2003 22:18:33 GMT, oldfortunetel…@aol.com (OldFortuneTeller) wrote in alt.support.mult-sclerosis:

I drive a car with hand controls and a while back, looked into flying lessons for the handicapped. I never read anything about MSers not being able to get pilots licenses, but the cost of lessons is PROHIBITIVE! Since I just spent $31,000 on a new car, an airplane isn’t in my budget now, but flying is really intriguing to me.

I can speak only for Canada. I was a pilot when I had my first overt symptom of MS, a case of double vision. I did not receive the official diagnosis for another 11 years but I was grounded immediately.  The reason given at the time was that it was unknown what caused the double vision; therefore, it could occur again with sudden onset–I should come back when the cause was known. I received the official diagnosis of MS in 1994 and was told that MS results in immediate and permanent invalidation of my medical certificate, which means I cannot fly as PIC (Pilot In Command) nor can I serve as flight crew. I was pissed off with the grounding in 1983, but given the way the MS progressed I now believe it is a justified precaution on the part of the authorities.  I would likely be dead if I had continued to fly and I would have taken any passengers to their deaths with me.  With the benefit of hindsight and speaking as a pilot, I now believe that a person with MS should not act as PIC. You might find a little entertainment if you use Google and read the following: Message-ID: <82idqs8m48re7hn2ee1lb7rtc263v4c0k1@4ax.com

— Gardening Zones Canada Zone 5a United States Zone 3a Near Ottawa, Ontario

Response:

On 15 Jul 2003 22:18:33 GMT, oldfortunetel…@aol.com (OldFortuneTeller) wrote in alt.support.mult-sclerosis:

I never read anything about MSers not being able to get pilots licenses

One of the first things you do is get a check out by an aviation doctor.  If you answer the questions truthfully then it is unlikely you will receive a passing medical. — Gardening Zones Canada Zone 5a United States Zone 3a Near Ottawa, Ontario

Response:

On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 17:06:00 GMT, "white.lynx" <white.l…@telus.net

wrote in

alt.support.mult-sclerosis:

In most cases in Canada, people would have great difficulty in obtaining their pilots license if they have multiple sclerosis.  This would be especially true if they have any symptoms or problems with balance or difficulty multitasking and making quick life-and-death decisions because of cognitive effects.

And a score of transient things that might happen only occasionally.   — Gardening Zones Canada Zone 5a United States Zone 3a Near Ottawa, Ontario

Response:

I had a Class III medical certificate from the FAA before I got sick. Afterwards, I didn’t even try because I knew I would be turned down. Lessons are relatively inexpensive (compared to getting a plane and maintaining it and storing it, etc.). If you make it clear to the instructor that you will never solo or get your license they can take you up just for fun (and it is). I used to say "I don’t want to learn how to fly, I just want to look around and I want to drive." CFIs are fine to take you up for fun, but CFIIs are more qualified. With a Dx of MS, I would not even try for a FAA medical. The thread is about Canada and I am talking about the US. I do not know your level of disability. I doubt I could even physically get into a small plane today. That is not to mention that I would have to land every hour to pee. If you need hand controls to drive a car, I doubt you could fly a plane at all. You need your feet to work the rudder and there are no adaptive devices. There are some planes that the yoke works the rudder automatically. If you are serious, look into those. I forget which planes do that, but a flying school should know. Fred. oldfortunetel…@aol.com (OldFortuneTeller) wrote in news:20030715181833.29384.00000280@mb-m15.aol.com: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

I drive a car with hand controls and a while back, looked into flying lessons for the handicapped. I never read anything about MSers not being able to get pilots licenses, but the cost of lessons is PROHIBITIVE! Since I just spent $31,000 on a new car, an airplane isn’t in my budget now, but flying is really intriguing to me.

Response:

Our David is or was an airplane mechanic, and when his neuro dx’d MS, he told Dave that it was one of the diseases that he had to report.  David has not been able to work since — and if a mechanic is prohibited you can be sure that the rules for a pilot would be even more stringent. Gaylan "Jim Carter" <spam.f…@softhome.net

wrote in message

news:ir69hvg6ts01ufaht0inu7l4oo1ah629ir@4ax.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

On 15 Jul 2003 22:18:33 GMT, oldfortunetel…@aol.com (OldFortuneTeller)

wrote

in alt.support.mult-sclerosis: I drive a car with hand controls and a while back, looked into flying

lessons

for the handicapped. I never read anything about MSers not being able to

get

pilots licenses, but the cost of lessons is PROHIBITIVE! Since I just spent $31,000 on a new car, an airplane isn’t in my budget

now,

but flying is really intriguing to me. I can speak only for Canada. I was a pilot when I had my first overt symptom of MS, a case of double

vision.

I did not receive the official diagnosis for another 11 years but I was

grounded

immediately.  The reason given at the time was that it was unknown what

caused

the double vision; therefore, it could occur again with sudden onset–I

should

come back when the cause was known. I received the official diagnosis of MS in 1994 and was told that MS

results in

immediate and permanent invalidation of my medical certificate, which

means I

cannot fly as PIC (Pilot In Command) nor can I serve as flight crew. I was pissed off with the grounding in 1983, but given the way the MS

progressed

I now believe it is a justified precaution on the part of the authorities.

I

would likely be dead if I had continued to fly and I would have taken any passengers to their deaths with me.  With the benefit of hindsight and

speaking

as a pilot, I now believe that a person with MS should not act as PIC. You might find a little entertainment if you use Google and read the

following:

Message-ID: <82idqs8m48re7hn2ee1lb7rtc263v4c…@4ax.com — Gardening Zones Canada Zone 5a United States Zone 3a Near Ottawa, Ontario

Response:

I’m a pilot with MS in the U.S.  Haven’t even tried to get the medical certificate since my DX several years ago.  Balance problems would make me ineligible even if the MS alone wouldn’t.  I sure miss flying.  By the way, I still have the license, but it is useless without the medical certificate. "white.lynx" <white.l…@telus.net

wrote in message

news:YvWQa.12108$Ma.2012737@news1.telusplanet.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

In most cases in Canada, people would have great difficulty in obtaining their pilots license if they have multiple sclerosis.  This would be especially true if they have any symptoms or problems with balance or difficulty multitasking and making quick life-and-death decisions because

of

cognitive effects.  PwMS would almost certainly have to appeal to the minister regarding their medical fitness and I doubt whether there would

be

many exceptions.  It is not a matter of money for training or being able

to

pass a flight test on a good day. The United States is much more liberal in their licensing of aircraft and pilots as evidenced by the many U.S. pilots who would stop at the border between Alaska and the Yukon to fly from Alaska south following the Alaska Highway using road maps instead of proper aeronautical charts.  This statement is not third hand but rather based on my personal inspection of many of these aircraft and pilots. Many of these pilots were helicopter pilots in Vietnam. Buying an aircraft from Alaska would guarantee years of headaches and expanse with Transport Canada as many of the aircraft in Alaska are maintained or rebuilt by their owners who are not certified aircraft mechanics keeping very detailed log books of dating from the time of manufacture (often 30 or 40 years) as required in Canada.  I checked into

it

in a lot of detail as I was considering buying a small plane from a friend of mine who as a state trooper in Alaska and had a small airplane with tundra tires and a stall kit for landing in taking off on gravel bars

along

remote rivers. If you have never been to mainland Alaska, your first observation would probably be all the small aircraft in small fields in

the

middle of nowhere.  I think the airfield is called Taylor Field near Anchorage and I believe that it had around 5000 private aircraft sitting there when I first saw it around 1980. The following are some of the regulations regarding pilots licenses and medical examinations in Canada. Prohibition Regarding Exercise of Privileges 404.06 (1) Subject to subsection (3), no holder of a permit, licence or rating shall exercise the privileges of the permit, licence or rating if (a) one of the following circumstances exists and could impair the

holder’s

ability to exercise those privileges safely: (i) the holder suffers from an illness, injury or disability, (ii) the holder is taking a drug, or (iii) the holder is receiving medical treatment; (b) the holder has been involved in an aircraft accident that is wholly or partially the result of any of the circumstances referred to in paragraph (a); (c) the holder has entered the thirtieth week of pregnancy, unless the medical certificate is issued in connection with an air traffic controller licence, in which case the holder may exercise the privileges of the

permit,

licence or rating until the onset of labour; or (d) the holder has given birth in the preceding six weeks. Division IV – MedicalMinister’s Assessment 404.11 (1) The Minister shall assess any medical reports submitted

pursuant

to paragraph 404.17(b) to determine whether an applicant for the issuance

or

renewal of a medical certificate meets the medical fitness requirements

set

out in the personnel licensing standards that are necessary for the

issuance

or renewal of the medical certificate Reconsideration of Assessment 404.12 (1) An applicant for the renewal of a medical certificate who is assessed by the Minister as not meeting the requirements referred to in subsection 404.11(1) may, within 30 days after the date that the applicant receives the notification referred to in subsection 404.11(2), (a) request the Minister to reconsider the assessment; and (b) submit additional information to the Minister regarding the medical fitness of the applicant in support of the request. — Larry rather than building character, adversity tends to reveal it written with voice recognition software

Response:

On Wed, 16 Jul 2003 06:09:53 -0400, "Thomas Young" <tomyo…@accesstoledo.com

wrote: By the way, I still have the license, but it is useless without the medical certificate.

Same as Canada.  I still have a licence, but it is invalid without the medical.

Response:

"white.lynx" <white.l…@telus.net

wrote in message

news:YvWQa.12108$Ma.2012737@news1.telusplanet.net…

In most cases in Canada, people would have great difficulty in obtaining their pilots license if they have multiple sclerosis.

I have retained my motorcycle racing license since my dx. I did check off the appropriate box in the forms last time I renewed it, and my application had no problems. But flying , I don’t know about that. It’s way to risky.:) — Jim Stinnett http://moto-rama.com

Response:

In addition to the possible dangers to the pilot and his passengers, there is dangers to other airplanes and potential crash sites on the ground.  When an aircraft goes missing in Canada, especially in coastal British Columbia, it can cost hundreds of thousands of dollars to search for it and jeopardizes the lives of the searchers.  There is a loophole in the regulations to allow the minister of transport some flexibility, but I can only see it justifiable in the case of a symptom-free individual. I quit driving motor vehicles even though I could probably do it most of the time using hand controls.  I know that in a complicated emergency pressure situation I could not respond quickly enough and  I did not want to take the chance of killing half of someone else’s family because of my pride and the often used "I need my car" excuse.  I suspect that there are many people with multiple sclerosis who should voluntarily quit driving but have not. In British Columbia, Canada you can be tested on a simulator and be taught how to use hand controls.  The thing that keeps many people from doing this is that you require a doctor’s referral (he is required by law to report you to motor vehicle branch if he doubts your ability to drive safely), it costs $300 you have to pay yourself and if you fail, it must be reported to motor vehicle branch in order to get you off the road.  Most people know when they have crossed the line and become a hazard. They should voluntarily quit driving, although some are in denial. — Larry rather than building character, adversity tends to reveal it written with voice recognition software "jim stinnett" <motor…@sbcglobal.net

wrote in message

news:ULfRa.1242$r42.365@newssvr24.news.prodigy.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "white.lynx" <white.l…@telus.net

wrote in message

> news:YvWQa.12108$Ma.2012737@news1.telusplanet.net… > > In most cases in Canada, people would have great difficulty in obtaining > > their pilots license if they have multiple sclerosis. > I have retained my motorcycle racing license since my dx. I did check off > the appropriate box in the forms last time I renewed it, and my application

had no problems. But flying , I don’t know about that. It’s way to risky.:) — Jim Stinnett http://moto-rama.com

Response:

"white.lynx" <white.l…@telus.net

wrote in message

news:U6gRa.16143$xn5.2111621@news0.telusplanet.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

In addition to the possible dangers to the pilot and his passengers, there is dangers to other airplanes and potential crash sites on the ground.

When

an aircraft goes missing in Canada, especially in coastal British

Columbia,

it can cost hundreds of thousands of dollars to search for it and jeopardizes the lives of the searchers.  There is a loophole in the regulations to allow the minister of transport some flexibility, but I can only see it justifiable in the case of a symptom-free individual. I quit driving motor vehicles even though I could probably do it most of

the

time using hand controls.  I know that in a complicated emergency pressure situation I could not respond quickly enough and  I did not want to take

the

chance of killing half of someone else’s family because of my pride and

the

often used "I need my car" excuse.

 i saw on tv today an older man drove thru a crowd of people, in cali,, it was reported he may have had a stroke or maybe a heart attack,, the question is ,when should you relinquish your driving priveledges?,,  how do we determine that time? if this gent had a history of heart condition, maybe his doctor should have the ability to yank their liscences when they show ceretain symptoms or threats of stroke or heart attacks?? if thats what it was.  so when should we decide to stop driving , when it puts others at risk,, how do we determine how bad our condition must be to stop driving???, specially with our cognitive symptoms we experience!!!, i have noticed it is gettin hard to say things at times,, getting the words out,, bobD

Response:

Here in the US (WA state) – I had a friend getting her pilot’s license.  She was on Zoloft for depression but otherwise completely healthy.  The FAA said she had to go off the Zoloft and get a psych note saying she was "stable" and could function w/out the meds. This totally sucked for her but she did it and as soon as she got her license – back on zoloft. ps this was all pre-9/11 jkl

Response:

mswo…@aol.comnothanks (MsWompa) wrote in message <news:20030717065515.14746.00000067@mb-m02.aol.com

… Here in the US (WA state) – I had a friend getting her pilot’s license.  She was on Zoloft for depression but otherwise completely healthy.  The FAA said she had to go off the Zoloft and get a psych note saying she was "stable" and could function w/out the meds. This totally sucked for her but she did it and as soon as she got her license – back on zoloft. ps this was all pre-9/11 jkl

Your friend is asking for big, big trouble.  Go to http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/query.asp (this is The National Transportation Board site) and ignore all spaces except the one labelled "Enter your word string below:"  Put the single word "zoloft" into that space and observe that there are eight hits on the word, each hit representing an accident, most fatal.  Here is just one of them.  This is the synopsis, full narrative is available at the NTSB site. Please point your friend to this site and have her discontinue either the zoloft or flying.  Please. "NTSB Identification: CHI01LA149. The docket is stored on NTSB microfiche number DMS. 14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation Accident occurred Sunday, May 27, 2001 in Kankakee, IL Probable Cause Approval Date: 1/16/03 Aircraft: Geertz Zenith CH 200, registration: N77VZ Injuries: 1 Fatal. The airplane was destroyed on impact with terrain. The pilot was fatally injured. A witness stated, "I watched it start a bank turn to the left and then nosed straight down. There were no other movements of the aircraft after it nosed down. It did not spin while going down. … I could not tell if the engine was running … nor did I notice the propeller. It appeared to me that there was no control of the aircraft after the left bank." The private pilot had 88.9 hours of total flight time and held a third class medical certificate. The pilot listed he used Zoloft and noted no "Mental disorders of any sort … " on the application for that medical certificate. Extracts from the pilot’s personal medical records showed, "…self-discontinued Zoloft 2 weeks ago because of conflict with FAA licensing – patient feels fine off of it. … An entry approximately 6 weeks before the accident indicates "…occasional problem staying asleep – has taken Ambien in past … no problem with concentration … meds – Zoloft 50 mg per day, approximately 3 days per week …" Civil Aeromedical Institute (CAMI) reviewed that application and cautioned the pilot, "Because of your history of anxiety and sleep disturbance, operation of aircraft is prohibited at any time new symptoms or adverse changes occur or any time medication and/or treatment is required." CAMI’s Final Forensic Toxicology Accident Report stated, "SERTRALINE detected in Liver 0.283 (ug/ml, ug/g),DESMETHYLSERTRALINE detected in Liver, and DESMETHYLSERTRALINE detected in Blood." Desmethylsertraline is the predominant metabolite of the antidepressant sertraline, Zoloft. Sertraline, Zoloft is [a] SSRI antidepressant. … ***Warnings – may impair mental and/or physical ability required for the performance of potentially hazardous tasks (e.g.,driving, operating heavy machinery).*** No pre-impact anomalies were found with the airplane. The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident as follows: The loss of control on initial climbout for undetermined reasons.                                         Full narrative available"

Response:

Not much worse than an alchoholic who sobers up just to get their drivers liscence renewed "Jim Carter" <jimcar…@gmx.net

wrote in message

news:33cf2f1c.0307171315.6e2a83b5@posting.google.com…

mswo…@aol.comnothanks (MsWompa) wrote in message

<news:20030717065515.14746.00000067@mb-m02.aol.com

…

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Here in the US (WA state) – I had a friend getting her pilot’s license.

She

was on Zoloft for depression but otherwise completely healthy.  The FAA

said

she had to go off the Zoloft and get a psych note saying she was

"stable" and

could function w/out the meds. This totally sucked for her but she did it and as soon as she got her

license -

back on zoloft. ps this was all pre-9/11 jkl Your friend is asking for big, big trouble.  Go to http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/query.asp (this is The National Transportation Board site) and ignore all spaces except the one labelled "Enter your word string below:"  Put the single word "zoloft" into that space and observe that there are eight hits on the word, each hit representing an accident, most fatal.  Here is just one of them.  This is the synopsis, full narrative is available at the NTSB site. Please point your friend to this site and have her discontinue either the zoloft or flying.  Please. "NTSB Identification: CHI01LA149. The docket is stored on NTSB microfiche number DMS. 14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation Accident occurred Sunday, May 27, 2001 in Kankakee, IL Probable Cause Approval Date: 1/16/03 Aircraft: Geertz Zenith CH 200, registration: N77VZ Injuries: 1 Fatal. The airplane was destroyed on impact with terrain. The pilot was fatally injured. A witness stated, "I watched it start a bank turn to the left and then nosed straight down. There were no other movements of the aircraft after it nosed down. It did not spin while going down. … I could not tell if the engine was running … nor did I notice the propeller. It appeared to me that there was no control of the aircraft after the left bank." The private pilot had 88.9 hours of total flight time and held a third class medical certificate. The pilot listed he used Zoloft and noted no "Mental disorders of any sort … " on the application for that medical certificate. Extracts from the pilot’s personal medical records showed, "…self-discontinued Zoloft 2 weeks ago because of conflict with FAA licensing – patient feels fine off of it. … An entry approximately 6 weeks before the accident indicates "…occasional problem staying asleep – has taken Ambien in past … no problem with concentration … meds – Zoloft 50 mg per day, approximately 3 days per week …" Civil Aeromedical Institute (CAMI) reviewed that application and cautioned the pilot, "Because of your history of anxiety and sleep disturbance, operation of aircraft is prohibited at any time new symptoms or adverse changes occur or any time medication and/or treatment is required." CAMI’s Final Forensic Toxicology Accident Report stated, "SERTRALINE detected in Liver 0.283 (ug/ml, ug/g),DESMETHYLSERTRALINE detected in Liver, and DESMETHYLSERTRALINE detected in Blood." Desmethylsertraline is the predominant metabolite of the antidepressant sertraline, Zoloft. Sertraline, Zoloft is [a] SSRI antidepressant. … ***Warnings – may impair mental and/or physical ability required for the performance of potentially hazardous tasks (e.g.,driving, operating heavy machinery).*** No pre-impact anomalies were found with the airplane. The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident as follows: The loss of control on initial climbout for undetermined reasons.                                         Full narrative available"

Response:

To me, I would rather see my friend on zoloft and flying her sessna (sp?) than depressed b/c she can’t take zoloft just to be a recreational flyer. How the heck can you link zoloft with an airplane accident.  If that was the case you would see a 2Million who take SSRI’s in an a lot more accidents driving their cars. jkl

Response:

it diminished my driving abilities,,last accident (there were 3 or 4) i totaled 2 cars..i stopped driving then. "MsWompa" <mswo…@aol.comnothanks

wrote in message

news:20030717221901.14537.00000158@mb-m04.aol.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

To me, I would rather see my friend on zoloft and flying her sessna (sp?)

than

depressed b/c she can’t take zoloft just to be a recreational flyer. How the heck can you link zoloft with an airplane accident.  If that was

the

case you would see a 2Million who take SSRI’s in an a lot more accidents driving their cars. jkl

Response:

On 18 Jul 2003 02:19:01 GMT, mswo…@aol.comnothanks (MsWompa) wrote in alt.support.mult-sclerosis:

To me, I would rather see my friend on zoloft and flying her sessna (sp?) than depressed b/c she can’t take zoloft just to be a recreational flyer. How the heck can you link zoloft with an airplane accident.  If that was the case you would see a 2Million who take SSRI’s in an a lot more accidents driving their cars.

I just hope that when she crashes her Cesna that she does it in an open area so she doesn’t take anyone else with her. — Joan

Response:

On 18 Jul 2003 02:19:01 GMT, mswo…@aol.comnothanks (MsWompa) wrote: }To me, I would rather see my friend on zoloft and flying her sessna (sp?) than }depressed b/c she can’t take zoloft just to be a recreational flyer. } }How the heck can you link zoloft with an airplane accident.  If that was the }case you would see a 2Million who take SSRI’s in an a lot more accidents }driving their cars.

If an aircraft is functioning properly then the cause of the accident must be the pilot.  If the pilot is taking a drug that interferes with his performance then one can quite easily link the drug with the accident. As a Naval Aviator, this tells me just how irresponsible pilots can be.  And who says that a lot of the accidents on our highways are not caused by people on OTC or prescription drugs who are disregarding the warning labels on the packages? The FAA does not ground a pilot without cause or on a whim. According to the 53rd edition of the Physicians’ Desk Reference (PDR), ZOLOFT is used for treatment of depression, obsessive-compulsive disorder, and panic disorder. Following are the definitions as defined in the PDR. None are the characteristics of a person who must be able to make split second decisions. "Depression…A major depressive episode implies a prominent and relatively persistent depressed or dysphoric mood that usually interferes with daily functioning (nearly every day for at least 2 weeks)…." "Obsessive-compulsive disorder is characterized by recurrent and persistent ideas, thoughts, impulses, or images (obsessions) that are ego-dystomic and/or repetitive, purposeful, and intentional behaviors (compulsion) that are recognized by the person as excessive or unreasonable…." "Panic disorder…a discrete period of intense fear or discomfort in which four (or more) of the following symptoms develop abruptly and reach a peak within 10 minutes; (1) palpitations, pounding heart, or accelerated heart rate; (2) sweating; (3) trembling or shaking; (4) sensations of shortness of breath or smothering; (5) feeling of choking; (6) chest pain or discomfort; (7) nausea or abdominal distress; (8) feeling dizzy, unsteady, lightheaded, or faint; (9) derealization (feelings of unreality) or depersonalization (being unattached from oneself); (10) fear of losing control; (11) fear of dying; (12) paresthesias (numbness or tingling sensations); (13) chills or hot flushes…."

Response:

what about american pilots flying high!!, doing amphetamines to be alert!!! this is a drug and it affects the ability to function while flying,, especially in combat, evidence of this is our 4 canadian soldiers blown away by an american pilot high on dope!!! in his doped up state he was unable to make proper descision or identify or obey the central commands orders. now we find out ALL american fighter pilots fly high on dope!!!! this is common american practice of drugging their pilots in the airforce.  now i know why so many choppers go down, from? drugged up americans fighting the war on drugs and terrorism while stoned on uppers!!!!  bobD "Tom Harkness" <spam.f…@nospam.com

wrote in message

news:b64af89202bae67d157fafaf63c9f2bb@free.teranews.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

On 18 Jul 2003 02:19:01 GMT, mswo…@aol.comnothanks (MsWompa) wrote: }To me, I would rather see my friend on zoloft and flying her sessna (sp?)

than

}depressed b/c she can’t take zoloft just to be a recreational flyer. } }How the heck can you link zoloft with an airplane accident.  If that was

the

}case you would see a 2Million who take SSRI’s in an a lot more accidents }driving their cars. If an aircraft is functioning properly then the cause of the accident must be the pilot.  If the pilot is taking a drug that interferes with his performance then one can quite easily link the drug with the accident. As a Naval Aviator, this tells me just how irresponsible pilots can be.

And

who says that a lot of the accidents on our highways are not caused by people on OTC or prescription drugs who are disregarding the warning

labels

on the packages? The FAA does not ground a pilot without cause or on a whim. According to the 53rd edition of the Physicians’ Desk Reference (PDR), ZOLOFT is used for treatment of depression, obsessive-compulsive disorder, and panic disorder. Following are the definitions as defined in the PDR. None are the characteristics of a person who must be able to make split second decisions. "Depression…A major depressive episode implies a prominent and

relatively

persistent depressed or dysphoric mood that usually interferes with daily functioning (nearly every day for at least 2 weeks)…." "Obsessive-compulsive disorder is characterized by recurrent and

persistent

ideas, thoughts, impulses, or images (obsessions) that are ego-dystomic and/or repetitive, purposeful, and intentional behaviors (compulsion) that are recognized by the person as excessive or unreasonable…." "Panic disorder…a discrete period of intense fear or discomfort in which four (or more) of the following symptoms develop abruptly and reach a peak within 10 minutes; (1) palpitations, pounding heart, or accelerated heart rate; (2) sweating; (3) trembling or shaking; (4) sensations of shortness

of

breath or smothering; (5) feeling of choking; (6) chest pain or

discomfort;

(7) nausea or abdominal distress; (8) feeling dizzy, unsteady,

lightheaded,

or faint; (9) derealization (feelings of unreality) or depersonalization (being unattached from oneself); (10) fear of losing control; (11) fear of dying; (12) paresthesias (numbness or tingling sensations); (13) chills or hot flushes…."

Response:

On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 21:03:50 GMT, "Bob Davidson" <phatb…@shaw.ca

wrote:

}now we find out ALL american fighter pilots fly high on dope!!!! this is }common american practice of drugging their pilots in the airforce.

Take it up with the Air Force.  I am Navy and feel the practice is irresponsible.

Response:

In <news:2382260b508bca06f082da1e53af960e@free.teranews.com

,

Tom Harkness said:

On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 21:03:50 GMT, "Bob Davidson" <phatb…@shaw.ca wrote: }now we find out ALL american fighter pilots fly high on dope!!!! this is }common american practice of drugging their pilots in the airforce. Take it up with the Air Force.  I am Navy and feel the practice is irresponsible.

"Irresponsible"? How about "criminally insane"? ((U))   M

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 15:18:36 -0700, "Michael" <muirh…@island.net

wrote:

}In <news:2382260b508bca06f082da1e53af960e@free.teranews.com

,

}Tom Harkness said: } }

On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 21:03:50 GMT, "Bob Davidson" <phatb…@shaw.ca

}

wrote:

}

}

}now we find out ALL american fighter pilots fly high on dope!!!!

}

this is }common american practice of drugging their pilots in the

}

airforce.

}

}

Take it up with the Air Force.  I am Navy and feel the practice is

}

irresponsible.

} }"Irresponsible"? } }How about "criminally insane"? } }((U)) }  M }

Take it up with the Air Force legal department.  Why am I suddenly the whipping boy for things over which you ought to know I have no control, did not countenance, cannot change, was not present for and am not responsible for?     I think one of you is taking bad drugs.  Or else is not taking his good drugs.  He says, "ALL american fighter pilots fly high on dope!!!!" then goes on to correctly state it is the Air Force.  Notice how quickly we go from ALL fighter pilots to just Air Force fighter pilots. Now you chime in with your two cents of legalese. ("Insane" is a legal, not medical, term.)  What do you expect me say? Why not use your energy to prevent another tragedy from occurring rather than to rehash old tragedies that cannot be undone?  If you cannot contribute to this purpose in a meaningful way then at least start a new message chain for your grievances where you can be ignored and are not detracting from the efforts of the pilots and others here who are trying to prevent another tragedy.  Is this too much to ask of you? I will return to base in another few minutes.  Pat yourselves on your backs for your efforts this day.  You have not helped one bit, but you have added considerable obfuscation in the message chain for those who are trying to help.

Response:

In <news:47d6d50e675fa9c0b6f2401a183c0054@free.teranews.com

,

Tom Harkness said: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 15:18:36 -0700, "Michael" <muirh…@island.net> > wrote: > }In <news:2382260b508bca06f082da1e53af960e@free.teranews.com

,

> }Tom Harkness said: > } > }> On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 21:03:50 GMT, "Bob Davidson" <phatb…@shaw.ca> > }> wrote: > }> > }> }now we find out ALL american fighter pilots fly high on dope!!!! > }> this is }common american practice of drugging their pilots in the > }> airforce. > }> > }> Take it up with the Air Force.  I am Navy and feel the practice is > }> irresponsible. > } > }"Irresponsible"? > } > }How about "criminally insane"? > } > }((U)) > }  M > } > Take it up with the Air Force legal department.  Why am I suddenly the > whipping boy for things over which you ought to know I have no > control, did not countenance, cannot change, was not present for and > am not responsible for?

Easy, Tom… I was commenting on a common Air Force practice, not on you! ((U))   M

Response:

"Tom Harkness" <spam.f…@nospam.com

wrote in message

news:47d6d50e675fa9c0b6f2401a183c0054@free.teranews.com…

help.

tom ,the point i am trying to make is that if they? are going to ban people with ms from flying cause we take medications, then ban all american pilots in ANY sevice that is FORCED to take uppers to fly 134 million dollar jets that bomb people.i dont say canadian pilots cause we dont have a common proctice of forcing our pilots to take uppers or not get the flight time!!!  but hey thanks for pointing out my inconsistencies, and i did pat myself on the back because eveytime i try and discuss what the usa is doing to the world someone corrects my grammar!! but i did get out the fact that there are pilots on drugs flying at mach 2 with big bombs in their holding bay, so whay up with them puttin pressure on msers who fly? t i did make some spelling mistakes buts thats how itype, also i did not get anything right, after i said all pilots, i just said airforce,, thats who flies planes,, i was not differentiating between any of your forces pilots as i did not know it was only the airforce pilots, high on crack how do you know the navy dudes aint taking Da shizznit  too?  bringing up the past is what is called -judicial precedent,, or when making an arguement, you back it up with facts,, like your pilots were on hardcore drugs when they murdered our soldiers who were in a KNOWN training area,, they fucked up!!! i also know john walters is a liar cause i have it on record. it is a fact he lied,, and that the bush oilicies are based on lies,, since you think i should pat myself on the back for something i was not intending in what i said,, i just now said it, and will pat myself now. bobD

Response:

Question:

I’m new to this news group. I’ve been diagnoses with severe ocd. I’m just hoping to connect with some others that have this problem. I am a counselor but you know it’s easier for me to help others than it is for me to help myself. I’ve struggled and studied this for a long time so hopefully I will have useful information for y’all as well. Staggy

Response:

"Micky Stagemeyer" <sta…@charter.net

wrote in message

news:v72poo4cj5qv03@corp.supernews.com…

I’m new to this news group. I’ve been diagnoses with severe ocd. I’m just hoping to connect with some others that have this problem. I am a counselor but you know it’s easier for me to help others than it is for me to help myself. I’ve struggled and studied this for a long time so hopefully I will have useful information for y’all as well. Staggy

Hi Staggy, I too find it easier to dish out advise then to "help myself". Anyway, I am looking forward to your posts. Lain — Warning: Be careful of the right side.

Response:

Lain –   My ocd is mostly what they would refer to as a "pure obsessional". I don’t have much of the compulsions that are typical of ocd. "Fear" of future events is really hard for me. It keeps me isolated. I spent a month in a day hospital during october which did help but I have a lot of work left to do. The cure is worse than the disease itself. Staggy

Response:

"Micky Stagemeyer" <sta…@charter.net

wrote in message

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I’m new to this news group. I’ve been diagnoses with severe ocd. I’m just hoping to connect with some others that have this problem. I am a counselor but you know it’s easier for me to help others than it is for me to help myself. I’ve struggled and studied this for a long time so hopefully I will have useful information for y’all as well. Staggy

Hello Staggy Welcome to the group! Sounds like you’ve come to the right place. Dr Zorg

Response:

"Staggy" <sta…@charter.net

wrote in message

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The cure is worse than the disease itself. Staggy

Yes, "seems" like the is no light at the end of this tunnel. Lain — Warning: Be careful of the right side.

Response:

Staggy wrote:

  My ocd is mostly what they would refer

to as a "pure obsessional". I don’t have

much of the compulsions that are typical

of ocd. "Fear" of future events is really

hard for me. It keeps me isolated.

Copied from a post I wrote a few weeks ago –

‘FWIW, most people who claim to be ‘pure obsessionals’ or to have ‘pure o’ OCD, in fact perform mental compulsions. Which is good news, in a way, cos it was previously believed that people with just obsessions (people with ‘pure o’ OCD) were more difficult to treat because there were no compulsions to deal with. Most experts now see the concept of ‘pure o’ OCD as outdated and not useful for proper treatment as more has been learned about mental compulsions. Now, people who were once labelled as ‘pure o’ and thus ‘difficult to treat’ are seen as just as treatable as people with ‘regular’ OCD.’ I would add that it could be that isolating yourself is a form of OCD avoidance, which is very typical OCD behaviour.  

The cure is worse than the disease itself.

In some cases, yes. In many cases it’s the belief that the treatment is worse than the OCD that is the culprit. There are many studies that show that people with OCD devalue their ability to cope with ‘bad’ experiences, much more than people without OCD. Couple that with tendencies for people with OCD to exaggerate risk, catastrophize and to dwell on the negative, it’s no wonder many people with OCD do not do CBT. — ARQ Add a dot on each side of the ‘r’ in my name and a ‘c’ in front of lara to email me.

Response:

I drove an ambulance for 15 years and I’ve worked in a hospital for most of my adult life but I don’t want to delude you into thinking I’m a DOCTOR or anything. I also find it easier to help others than to help myself. I’ve been on this group for over for over 5 years and have gotten a lot of useful information from this group. I also find the moral support encouraging. I’ve was diagnosed with OCD & depression 12 years ago (have had it longer). I’ve taken Pamalor, Prozac, Paxil, Celexa, & some others with varying results. SOme were pretty good (like Pamalor and Paxil) but I didn’t like the side effects. I’m currently on Zoloft and Tegretol and I am going to stop the Zoloft (gives me diarrhea & makes me anxious) and try Luvox starting tomorrow. Welcome. NK PS- I would be careful about using your real name on usenet. Too many psychos. "Micky Stagemeyer" <sta…@charter.net

wrote in message

news:v72poo4cj5qv03@corp.supernews.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

I’m new to this news group. I’ve been diagnoses with severe ocd. I’m just hoping to connect with some others that have this problem. I am a counselor but you know it’s easier for me to help others than it is for me to help myself. I’ve struggled and studied this for a long time so hopefully I will have useful information for y’all as well. Staggy

Response:

Hi NK,         It is a known fact that diarrhea is a side effect of Zoloft. However, my experience is that you have less risk of it if you take it with a full stomach.  Also, thank you for letting me pick your brain about my current situation. JP

Response:

Question:

What is a good starting dose for paxil. doc said start at 20. Does it cause sexual side effects in men? What about drinking alcohol and taking it. What are some side effects that should be called into the doctor over? Sue Before you buy.

Response:

What is a good starting dose for paxil. doc said start at 20. Does it cause sexual side effects in men? What about drinking alcohol and taking it. What are some side effects that should be called into the doctor over? Sue

Hi Sue, People with anxiety disorders should start Paxil at 5mgs, increasing the dose in 5mg increments every week or so. Paxil should kick in around 6 to 8 weeks. Paxil is notorious for sexual dysfunction in men ( I will enlcose a link for a website that has alot of info on med induced sexual dysfunction. http://panicdisorder.about.com/cs/medsdysfunction/index.htm It is always advisable to not drink while taking AD`s. You should always talk to your doctor about this, and do things in moderation. Any side-effect that is causing significant distress should be discussed with your doctor. Take care Jackie

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What is a good starting dose for paxil. doc said start at 20. Does it cause sexual side effects in men? What about drinking alcohol and taking it. What are some side effects that should be called into the doctor over? Sue Hi Sue, People with anxiety disorders should start Paxil at 5mgs, increasing the dose in 5mg increments every week or so. Paxil should kick in around 6 to 8 weeks. Paxil is notorious for sexual dysfunction in men ( I will enlcose a link for a website that has alot of info on med induced sexual dysfunction. http://panicdisorder.about.com/cs/medsdysfunction/index.htm It is always advisable to not drink while taking AD`s. You should always talk to your doctor about this, and do things in moderation. Any side-effect that is causing significant distress should be discussed with your doctor. Take care Jackie

Thank you very much Jackie. Its apreciated. Sue:-) Before you buy.

Response:

What is a good starting dose for paxil. doc said start at 20.

Sigh…much too high. Start at 5 mg and stay there for a week and then raise the dose in weekly increments of 5 mg or whatever is comfortable. Does it cause sexual side effects in men?

It very often causes sexual dysfunction in men and in women. What about drinking alcohol and taking it.

Every doctor will say it’s a nono but IMO very moderate drinking won;t hurt. What are some side effects that should be called into the doctor over?

What side effects are happening? Sue

Philip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Before you buy.

Response:

Hi Sue, What is a good starting dose for paxil.

About 1/4 the smallest dose tablet. In this case 5mg. Pill cutters available at pharmacies will make cutting easier and less bloody. NOTE1: Okay this with the prescribing doctor first. There may be a good reason why this isn’t okay in some situations, but he/she would need to come up with one.   NOTE2: this doesn’t apply to Paxil, but some antidepressants are available in prolonged release formulations (Effexor XR etc). These should NOT be cut. doc said start at 20.

Doctor needs to be educated about the different needs of anxiety patients compared to those with depression. Antidepressants almost always cause an initial increase in anxiety for purely physical reasons. Most of this can be reduced, though, unfortunately, not completely avoided by starting on small doses and ramping up in similar small doses at 7-10 day intervals. Does it cause sexual side effects in men?

Despite the claims of some manufacturers, all antidepressants may. What about drinking alcohol and taking it.

1)  The biggest problem with alcohol + ADs is that the effect can be unpredictable. Some days you can drink a fair amount of alcohol without greater than usual effect, other days just a small drink will turn your legs to rubber. Alcohol should be treated with caution and no driving etc afterwards. 2) Alcohol can, often does, make anxiety disorders worse. Having 1 or 2 drinks is usually not a problem, indeed may be beneficial, but if it gets to 3-4 then 5-6 etc, you can quickly get into serious trouble because alcohol and anxiety start to feed off each other into a rapid downward spiral. What are some side effects that should be called into the doctor over?

If started at a low dose with small increases, as above, there shouldn’t be any major problems. SSRI meds are very safe, even in huge overdose quantities. Anything that does cause concern should be referred to the prescribing doctor, if only for the re-assurance value. I won’t list all the possible side effects because I can guarantee that half the folk that read it will instantly start experiencing all of them. However, full information about Paxil and other ADs can be found at www.mentalhealth.com  - click the ‘medications’ button and then scroll down the list that appears in the l/h frame. Sue

Good  luck Ian

Response:

Sue, They started me at 20, its now up to 30.  Doc told me not to drink while on the medication, said it’s not a good idea!  Don’t know about the sexual side effects in men, but, with me…well, don’t know if it’s the drug or the problems with my depression and/or anxiety.  Maybe should call doctor if there’s any signs of headaches, fever, dizziness, etc.! Kerri – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What is a good starting dose for paxil. doc said start at 20. Does it cause sexual side effects in men? What about drinking alcohol and taking it. What are some side effects that should be called into the doctor over? Sue Before you buy.

Response:

my experience has been that a lower starting dose has fewer side effects.  I can’t drink alcohol with it, either.  (one beer, okay, but it hits me like a brick wall!) It can lessen sex drive, but I didn’t have that problem. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What is a good starting dose for paxil. doc said start at 20. Does it cause sexual side effects in men? What about drinking alcohol and taking it. What are some side effects that should be called into the doctor over? Sue Before you buy.

Response:

What is a good starting dose for paxil. doc said start at 20.

I think it depends on the disorder. I have anxiety mostly but depression also. When I tried paxil, we started at 5mg for a week, then 10 then 20. Does it cause sexual side effects in men?

It did for me, but it won’t effect everyone the same way so it may not affect you that way. What about drinking alcohol and taking it.

Please don’t. It’ll make everything better if you don’t. What are some side effects that should be called into the doctor over?

I had weight loss, extreme tiredness, sexual dysfunction, involuntary muscle movements/tremors, and it made the anxiety actually worse. It all got significantly worse as soon as we went up to 20mg. That was enough for me and doc to try something else, since I don’t normally have such strong reactions to SSRI’s (I took prozac some years ago and had much milder side-effects). OTOH, a friend of mine takes paxil and had hardly any side effects and it seems to be helping him quite a bit. So, as my doc says, it’s like trying on shoes – try a med untilyou find one that "fits". IMO, it’s ok to talk to the doc about any side effects, particularly if they’re strong or really interfering with your life. We’ve recently switched me to zoloft and, although it’s still pretty early, I am not having side effects to that degree. So I’m in the same boat as you, trying different meds to find the right one…. LS Before you buy.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What is a good starting dose for paxil. doc said start at 20. Does it cause sexual side effects in men? What about drinking alcohol and taking it. What are some side effects that should be called into the doctor over? Sue Before you buy. Paxil should be started at 5mgs then slowly move up.  20mgs for depression and

30-60mgs for panic.  Also for you men.  paxil is also prescribed for premature ejaculation and TRUST me it works.  Paxil will delay your ejaculation and it wont be near as powerfull. donny Confess your sins.  Turn from your sins.  Believe in your heart.  Ask Jesus to save you.

Response:

What is a good starting dose for paxil. doc said start at 20.

I started at 20mg and quickly rose to 60mg with no problem.  Some people seem to need smaller doses and slower increases as they complain about various annoying side effects when starting Paxil. Does it cause sexual side effects in men?

It sure does.  One of Paxil’s off label uses is for the treatment of premature ejaculation and let me tell you this drug does a fantastic job of delaying orgasm.  At 60mg I was totally unable to orgasm even after hours of trying and would just have to give up due to exhaustion and boredom. Before you buy.

Response:

I’d ask your doctor for 20 mg "plain" Paxil tablets, and start with 10 mgs every day with dinner, after a couple weeks, raise the dose to the full 20 mg tablet.  Paxil CR is nothing more than a patent ploy used by that drug manufacturer to keep making a brand name product, because their patent ran out on Paxil – subsequently there are generic brands of plain Paxil available.   I’m hearing rumblings amonst paxil patients that some of the generics are lesser than…. You may want to try brand name Paxil.  I have no use for Paxil CR personally, as you can probably tell by my "thoughts", which you asked for. Gary   I just started Paxil CR for panic disorder. 12.5 and increasing weekly up to 37.5 hopefully.  Over the last 3 days I’ve noticed more sedation than the other SSRI’s I’ve taken.  So, I’m trying to decide if I should take it at night or daytime.  Any thoughts and how has it worked for anyone?   Thanks   Scott

Response:

I’ve been on Paxil CR since 2003. I started at the 12.5 dosage and i’ve been at 37.5 for over a year now. It’s helped me a great deal and it’s gotten my panic disorder under control. I’m going to be coming down off of it this year actually. You know alot of people always think they need to be at the highest dosage possible. I think that you should not fall into that trap. See how the 12.5 works for you if you are okay then maybe you don’t need to increase. I went up gradually going from the 12.5 for a few months, to the 25 for a few months, and the 37.5 for over a year, and that’s where i’ve been at and it’s worked great for me. It takes time to kick in though it took about four weeks or so for it to really do the trick for me. Some of the side effects of waiting for it to kick in are dry mouth and lack of libido. While taking Paxil you may also experience weight gain. So hang in there. I’ll let you know however that Paxil does not work for everyone. It worked for me though and i’m happy about that.

Response:

I just started Paxil CR for panic disorder. 12.5 and increasing weekly up to 37.5 hopefully.  Over the last 3 days I’ve noticed more sedation than the other SSRI’s I’ve taken.  So, I’m trying to decide if I should take it at night or daytime.  Any thoughts and how has it worked for anyone? Thanks Scott

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I switched about 16 months ago from Paxil to Celexa. It was a pretty seamless transition. Celexa has proven very effective for my panic and anxiety (like Paxil), without the sleepiness. I gained lots of weight on Paxil, but have stabilized on Celexa. And I stopped falling asleep at my desk at work every afternoon, which was happening on Paxil! I also have felt for some time that the Celexa actually gave me a better lift for my depression than the Paxil did, especially over the long haul. (I had to increase my Paxil dose after about 6 months, as it was beginning to "poop out" for the depression; I have not had to do this with Celexa.) Hello Anne How did you switch from paxil to celexa. Weaning of paxil,or just a change overnight ? Just wondering,cause I do feel the sedating effect from paxil. Would be glad with some information about the transition Love from Anna I can

Question:

I read somewhere that the NPS considers invasive plants and animals to be a greater threat to the integrity of the park environments then the crush of human visitors.

This is one of the areas where full protection gets very hard to even define. For example, the Great Smokies area parks and some of the national forests nearby, are all either already allowing or considering unlimited fishing of rainbow trout. Why? Because the rainbow isn’t a native species, and they hope that eliminating it from some streams will preserve the native trout (which is technically a char anyway). Park service people are busily figuring out which streams have waterfalls high enough to keep rainbows from returning if fished out (as rainbows are mediocre jumpers compared to the native species), and which ones can’t be kept cleared. It may be ecologically sound overall, but it results in a crazy quilt pattern of fishing policies. I’m waiting for someone to suggest ‘improving’ a few waterfalls to make more streams ‘native species only’. Then there’s the asiatic brown trout, which is also non-native, but is unfortunately an excellent jumper…      Meanwhile, efforts continue to restore once native elk and wolves. Elk seem to be working, but keeping released red wolves alive when they stray out of the park area is highly doubtful, and if they can’t be established as a stable population, then the only way left to control the elk is to allow hunting. There’s also the question of whether red wolves count as a native species, since they all seem to have some domestic canine genes mixed in. Wolves may also help reduce the numbers of wild boar (again a non-native species). But nobody seriously thinks the wild boar can be eliminated by wolf predation…       The situation makes one thing clear. Once you let invasive plants and animals in, and hunt out a few native species, you have a seriously unstable ecosystem on your hands, and every step you take to restore a ‘normal’ ecology is a step into the unknown. All the likelyest scenarios involve other problems developing, and fixes for the fixes for the fixes being required. ‘Full protection’ becomes ‘full protection for native species’, with native usually meaning ‘before the white man came’. Planners don’t generally like to admit it, but they are not even trying to preserve the full diversity of the park’s wildlife, they are trying to set a higher threshold for the coming crash. They don’t expect to have a thousand species of wildflowers in the park in 30 years, but they think that proper management can cut diebacks to 20% or so, or in some areas 50%, and not taking these steps could leave us with 80 or 90% losses to some phyla. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yup and we also have to worry about plans to "localize" control of other areas of wilderness.  This is one of the few instances I can think of where National control of land is far better than state or local control.  Once local control is involved, local, economic concerns, logging, etc. takes over.  Then we all lose what we’ve been lucky enough as a nation to have had in the past. Jerry

Response:

 I still believe we have to recognize that National Parks are, by their very design, places where we have to balance the needs of recreation and protection. – Bob C.

snipped all sorts of agreeable stuff… Here’s the crux of the problem, not all people agree on what the "balance" should be. leads to healthy debate…too bad that’s about as far as it can go in this forum. — Paul Schnettler

Response:

     Don’t know if many have been following a previous post on protections for our National Parks but it seems by the responses that various animals and objects within our parks are not fully protected!  I was always under the assumption that our National Parks were these "Cathedrals" set aside, forever for the people and also for preservation. I think I agree with your sentiments in general, but disagree with the notion that National Parks should be set aside as "Cathedrals".

This was not a suggestion of mine——-simply an observation I had personally made and thought was true! This is more the purpose of other types of protected areas. A National Park is not the same thing as a wilderness area, although it may contain such areas. The mission of the NPS is stated as: "…to promote and regulate the use of the…national parks…which     purpose is to conserve the scenery and the natural and historic objects     and the wild life therein and to provide for the enjoyment of the same in     such manner and by such means as will leave them unimpaired for the     enjoyment of future generations."

Unimpaired for the enjoyment of future generations is a key phrase here. And as was stated in other posts, changing times, habitat loss and other factors may change the general "mission" of the park in future years. A key to the statement is the "enjoyment" aspect. Most of our parks have been created around scenic wonders of the landscape, scenic wonders which people naturally want to go see. (Everglades NP, designated in 1947, was the first park created purely because of the plant and animal life, with supporters admitting that many would consider the scenery to be "confused and monotonous" – having been there twice, however, I can tell you that the abundance of plants and animal life is itself a scenic wonder!). Personally, I think it makes sense to try to make the parks as accessible as possible (within the bounds of leaving them "unimpaired"). The reason I say this is that our National Parks are probably the best school room we have for educating people on the need for protecting our wilderness.

Exactly.  Even though I don’t like the idea of seeing animals in cages in zoos, I agree with the reasons——to educate, inform and enlighten the public on the issues of preservation.  Somewhere along the line, man may have to face the choice of either restricting events that may lead to the complete loss of a species, etc. or lose the species alltogether.  That’s a drastic statement and we as a nation are at this cross road with some species now but will we value our National Parks enough to restrict certain activities in a park that will cause negative affects by overuse? I read somewhere that the NPS considers invasive plants and animals to be a greater threat to the integrity of the park environments then the crush of human visitors.

I somewhat agree.  Vast numbers of visitors can be controlled, after all, you’re dealing with an "intelligent" being.  :-)  But mindless, foreign plants that may have no, local preditors but thrive in their new homes can choke out resident plants because these plants have to contend with the native insects, diseases, etc. I don’t know if this is true, but I can easily believe it given the the human visitation is mostly limited to very small areas of the park and is completely within our control. So bring as many people as possible to the park and give them that environmental education.

Yes.  The vast majority of visitors to the parks never see the "back country". Yes, we do have to be always wary of many of the privatization schemes and other ways in which those hostile to environmental concerns would like to "Disnify" our parks, but I still believe we have to recognize that National Parks are, by their very design, places where we have to balance the needs of recreation and protection.

Yup and we also have to worry about plans to "localize" control of other areas of wilderness.  This is one of the few instances I can think of where National control of land is far better than state or local control.  Once local control is involved, local, economic concerns, logging, etc. takes over.  Then we all lose what we’ve been lucky enough as a nation to have had in the past. Jerry

Response:

Jerry, I know where you’re going with your plea, and I respect that. But why attempt to turn something that was once and is no longer…wilderness, into what it cannot revert back to? It’s an oxymoron… congregating mass quantities of people into an area like Yellowstone renders it no longer a "wilderness" experience.

Well, the way I look at it is that the vast majority of visitors to the park don’t even get into the "back country"!  Many just drive the loops then stay in a motel for the night then head home.  So not that many people are spoiling the parks.  And the few who do make it back into the "wilderness" tend to take care of it.  It’s not a lost cause. Why not keep the truly unmolested areas as wilderness areas for all to see and experience, while leaving other areas not so pristine? Experiencing the wilderness is more of a mindset rather than an event. One (IMHO) cannot expect to funnel people in cars or any other form of mass transportation into an area and then proclaim it as a "wilderness past" experience. In almost every preserve…(I like that word better) type of area I’ve visited, it takes a day of hard paddling or strenuous hiking to get past the day trip mentality people, back to the areas where you really want to spend time exploring. In other words, you put the effort forth to find the "walden" that you seek, each seeker has his/her own expectations.

That’s exactly what I’m talking about. Again, IMHO the mere presence of people threatens the protections afforded the animals in the parks. Any man vs/ animal situation puts the animal at a disadvantage with regards to protections…it’s the human psyche that upsets the balance.

You’re right but just by having people present, doesn’t necessarily have to degrade the immediate environment for animals living there.  That’s where and why we have certain rules to follow to insure a quality experience in our parks.  Somethin’ worth fighting for. Jerry – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — Paul Schnettler

Response:

     Don’t know if many have been following a previous post on protections for our National Parks but it seems by the responses that various animals and objects within our parks are not fully protected!  I was always under the assumption that our National Parks were these "Cathedrals" set aside, forever for the people and also for preservation.  

I think I agree with your sentiments in general, but disagree with the notion that National Parks should be set aside as "Cathedrals". This is more the purpose of other types of protected areas. A National Park is not the same thing as a wilderness area, although it may contain such areas. The mission of the NPS is stated as: "…to promote and regulate the use of the…national parks…which     purpose is to conserve the scenery and the natural and historic objects     and the wild life therein and to provide for the enjoyment of the same in     such manner and by such means as will leave them unimpaired for the     enjoyment of future generations." A key to the statement is the "enjoyment" aspect. Most of our parks have been created around scenic wonders of the landscape, scenic wonders which people naturally want to go see. (Everglades NP, designated in 1947, was the first park created purely because of the plant and animal life, with supporters admitting that many would consider the scenery to be "confused and monotonous" – having been there twice, however, I can tell you that the abundance of plants and animal life is itself a scenic wonder!). Personally, I think it makes sense to try to make the parks as accessible as possible (within the bounds of leaving them "unimpaired"). The reason I say this is that our National Parks are probably the best school room we have for educating people on the need for protecting our wilderness. People who would dismiss me as a tree-hugger and not listen to anything I say will stop and take notice when they’re in a national park listening to a park ranger say the exact same thing. People of all political ideologies seem to have a great deal of respect for park rangers, and I don’t think I ever met a ranger who wasn’t a great deal concerned about protecting the environment. I read somewhere that the NPS considers invasive plants and animals to be a greater threat to the integrity of the park environments then the crush of human visitors. I don’t know if this is true, but I can easily believe it given the the human visitation is mostly limited to very small areas of the park and is completely within our control. So bring as many people as possible to the park and give them that environmental education. Yes, we do have to be always wary of many of the privatization schemes and other ways in which those hostile to environmental concerns would like to "Disnify" our parks, but I still believe we have to recognize that National Parks are, by their very design, places where we have to balance the needs of recreation and protection. – Bob C.

Response:

     Don’t know if many have been following a previous post on protections for our National Parks but it seems by the responses that various animals and objects within our parks are not fully protected!  I was always under the assumption that our National Parks were these "Cathedrals" set aside, forever for the people and also for preservation.  Not so.  So, when you see lobbyists trying to further degrade the only public place that should be held in trust for preservation AND public use that does not degrade your park, speak up.  All Americans have the right to get a glimpse of what the American wilderness used to be.  And future generations should also have the same expectations.      There is plenty of public land outside our National Parks where people can use the land for something other than preservation.  Here’s a "timely" quote from John Muir that perfectly fits various "These temple-destroyers, devotees of ravaging commercialism, seem to have a perfect contempt for Nature, and instead of lifting their eyes to the God of the mountains, lift them to the Almighty Dollar". Jerry

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –      Don’t know if many have been following a previous post on protections for our National Parks but it seems by the responses that various animals and objects within our parks are not fully protected!  I was always under the assumption that our National Parks were these "Cathedrals" set aside, forever for the people and also for preservation.  Not so.  So, when you see lobbyists trying to further degrade the only public place that should be held in trust for preservation AND public use that does not degrade your park, speak up.  All Americans have the right to get a glimpse of what the American wilderness used to be.  And future generations should also have the same expectations.      There is plenty of public land outside our National Parks where people can use the land for something other than preservation.  Here’s a "timely" quote from John Muir that perfectly fits various "These temple-destroyers, devotees of ravaging commercialism, seem to have a perfect contempt for Nature, and instead of lifting their eyes to the God of the mountains, lift them to the Almighty Dollar". Jerry

Jerry, I know where you’re going with your plea, and I respect that. But why attempt to turn something that was once and is no longer…wilderness, into what it cannot revert back to? It’s an oxymoron… congregating mass quantities of people into an area like Yellowstone renders it no longer a "wilderness" experience. Why not keep the truly unmolested areas as wilderness areas for all to see and experience, while leaving other areas not so pristine? Experiencing the wilderness is more of a mindset rather than an event. One (IMHO) cannot expect to funnel people in cars or any other form of mass transportation into an area and then proclaim it as a "wilderness past" experience. In almost every preserve…(I like that word better) type of area I’ve visited, it takes a day of hard paddling or strenuous hiking to get past the day trip mentality people, back to the areas where you really want to spend time exploring. In other words, you put the effort forth to find the "walden" that you seek, each seeker has his/her own expectations. Again, IMHO the mere presence of people threatens the protections afforded the animals in the parks. Any man vs/ animal situation puts the animal at a disadvantage with regards to protections…it’s the human psyche that upsets the balance. — Paul Schnettler

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Question:

Modern SSRI antidepressants are good at preventing both depression and ejaculation…..     It’s a well known but little discussed side effect of drugs like prozac, zoloft, effexor, citalopram….. Hello, I was wondering if anyone can help me with a problem I’ve had since I was a teenager.  Everytime I ejaculate, I get a feeling of depression x approximately 2-3 days.    It has nothing to do with anything psychologically but I feel is biochemical.   Does anyone know of a solution or can direct me to a solution for this problem? Thanks R

– Some of my colleagues think that the chemicals we are experimenting with could potentially cause brain damage, however I think that fish crunchy bits of salami my new red hippie noodle. Naked pool frogs?

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Hello, I was wondering if anyone can help me with a problem I’ve had since I was a teenager.  Everytime I ejaculate, I get a feeling of depression x approximately 2-3 days.    It has nothing to do with anything psychologically but I feel is biochemical.   Does anyone know of a solution or can direct me to a solution for this problem? Thanks R

It is possible to abuse sex. It can be very effective as a means of reducing anxiety. It is an addiction much as drinking exsessive amounts of alcohol. Doubt if it’s biochemical any more then an alcoholic that feels depressed when drinking. Contact a therapist that knows anything about sexual issues. And a lot of them don’t know so don’t settle for the first you find. They might also tell you if there is a possibillity that it is a biochemical reaction. J.

Response:

Hello, I was wondering if anyone can help me with a problem I’ve had since I was a teenager.  Everytime I ejaculate, I get a feeling of depression x approximately 2-3 days.    It has nothing to do with anything psychologically but I feel is biochemical.   Does anyone know of a solution or can direct me to a solution for this problem? Thanks R

Response:

I was wondering if anyone can help me with a problem I’ve had since I was a teenager.  Everytime I ejaculate, I get a feeling of depression x approximately 2-3 days.    It has nothing to do with anything psychologically but I feel is biochemical.   Does anyone know of a solution or can direct me to a solution for this problem?

Stop ejaculating and get some good therapy?? Sincerely Stewart — The Metaphor Man  *and*  The Great Defender of the Self (remove the SPAMBLOCK) Please send me an e-mail copy of your posted response.

Response:

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have used valerian, esp. before I finally broke down, admitted I had a mood disorder, and was put on depakote, then lamictal (another mood stabilizer with fewer side effects — for me — than the depakote).  The valerian made me sleepy consistently, and I felt physically tired and mentally vague, which perhaps mitigated my mood disorder by making me too sleepy to notice how depressed I was.  It didn’t do anything when I was manic, however.  The mania was far stronger than the relatively mild effects of the valerian (I never took a high dose of it).  On the other hand, I’ve never tried it with effexor or wellbutrin, both of which I now take and both of which are fairly activating so I suppose they would offset the dullness factor.  I see no reason why you shouldn’t try it if your pdoc won’t give you a mood stabilizer and you feel you need one.  Why won’t your pdoc give you one?  or an anti-psychotic?  Does he/she not trust your reporting of symptoms that would indicate a need for them?  Maybe you just need a new, and hopefully better-informed, pdoc.  I’ve had five pdocs since beginning medication and not one of them has ever had any problems with prescribing anti-convulsants as mood stabilizers.  What about lithium?  No question that it’s a mood stabilizer, and nothing else.  Don’t overdose on the valerian, though. Start low and see how it goes.  But if I were in your place I’d find another pdoc. Let us know how it goes for you.  Luck. –Allegra

Thanks for the info Allegra… I was thinking of trying Valerian… since my pdoc thinks that i don’t need any kind of medicataion im kinda on my own… wanted to see if ti would help. Tried a veyr low dose for sleep, but it din’t have any effect – wonder if a much larger one would help… Don’t know about Jame’s pdoc, but mine says that there’s nothing biochemically wrong with me… so theres nothing for a pill to fix… how’s that? a pdoc who DOESN’T want to shove medication down your throat!!! last year I wouild have been thinking WOW, but now i’m not so sure… i mean, this guy saw me on Tuesday when i was about readuy to cut my wrists, and told me that my issues would deal with themselves gfiven time! — Kaji/Karenji – dragon/human Shifter depending on mood… *New Dragon Code COMING (one blue moon or another) *ICQ 55339701 – feel free to message me to chat *http://www.labyrinth.net.au/~gsj/Index.html *Wingsister to Viriatha, Tanith, Hespa and Caitlin/Amberynth *Lover of Chocolate, and Occasional Giver of Chocolate Points *Self-Appointed Guardian of the Southern Spring *Keeper of the Sunnydale Lost and Found

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Hey folks: Well, since my pdoc won’t give me some good mood stabalizers or low dose antopsychotic, I am gonna try my 150mg Effexor XR, with a benzo, and Vallerian Root which I HOPE acts in SOME kind of mood stabalizing way. Ya, I know…far from being anything "medically" correct, but it’s much better than the previous cocktail of benzos and codiene I was taking. One thing I noticed with Effexor though is that it can really mess up your memory and alertness all day long. What I may try and do is beg, beg, beg my family doc to take on my psch meds for now, and ask to give a shot at another mood stabalizer or antipsychotic with Effexor or Welbutrin. My family doc was much more enthusiastic about using a mood stabalizer, he started me on depakote, than using benzos. The pdocs don’t seem to want to use ANYTHING not stricly "labled", as I see there is that whole controversy over using different meds for bp. (I guess even if the anticonvulsants are officially "labled" for use in bp, many pdocs still won’t use them.) Yes, there must be a bit of caution in mix and match pharmacy, but we are only here for a limited time, and I want to live as healthy, happy life like everybody does. I think even pdocs (some..not all) don’t realize how painful a mental disorder is. Yes, it’s "different" than physical pain, put the intensity is just as bad. James

Response:

I have used valerian, esp. before I finally broke down, admitted I had a mood disorder, and was put on depakote, then lamictal (another mood stabilizer with fewer side effects — for me — than the depakote).  The valerian made me sleepy consistently, and I felt physically tired and mentally vague, which perhaps mitigated my mood disorder by making me too sleepy to notice how depressed I was.  It didn’t do anything when I was manic, however.  The mania was far stronger than the relatively mild effects of the valerian (I never took a high dose of it).  On the other hand, I’ve never tried it with effexor or wellbutrin, both of which I now take and both of which are fairly activating so I suppose they would offset the dullness factor.  I see no reason why you shouldn’t try it if your pdoc won’t give you a mood stabilizer and you feel you need one.  Why won’t your pdoc give you one?  or an anti-psychotic?  Does he/she not trust your reporting of symptoms that would indicate a need for them?  Maybe you just need a new, and hopefully better-informed, pdoc.  I’ve had five pdocs since beginning medication and not one of them has ever had any problems with prescribing anti-convulsants as mood stabilizers.  What about lithium?  No question that it’s a mood stabilizer, and nothing else.  Don’t overdose on the valerian, though. Start low and see how it goes.  But if I were in your place I’d find another pdoc. Let us know how it goes for you.  Luck. –Allegra

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey folks: Well, since my pdoc won’t give me some good mood stabalizers or low dose antopsychotic, I am gonna try my 150mg Effexor XR, with a benzo, and Vallerian Root which I HOPE acts in SOME kind of mood stabalizing way. Ya, I know…far from being anything "medically" correct, but it’s much better than the previous cocktail of benzos and codiene I was taking. One thing I noticed with Effexor though is that it can really mess up your memory and alertness all day long. What I may try and do is beg, beg, beg my family doc to take on my psch meds for now, and ask to give a shot at another mood stabalizer or antipsychotic with Effexor or Welbutrin. My family doc was much more enthusiastic about using a mood stabalizer, he started me on depakote, than using benzos. The pdocs don’t seem to want to use ANYTHING not stricly "labled", as I see there is that whole controversy over using different meds for bp. (I guess even if the anticonvulsants are officially "labled" for use in bp, many pdocs still won’t use them.) Yes, there must be a bit of caution in mix and match pharmacy, but we are only here for a limited time, and I want to live as healthy, happy life like everybody does. I think even pdocs (some..not all) don’t realize how painful a mental disorder is. Yes, it’s "different" than physical pain, put the intensity is just as bad. James

Response:

Question:

I’ve no idea about the relative pressures involved, but perhaps someone here could cast a bit of light? Maybe by studying old saxophonists we could make a guess about the long-term effects of CPAP without doing the experiment the slow way. Perhaps, but you have to be able to establish: 1. That damage to the lungs is occurring

This will be complicated by existing pulmonary disease, since existing disease is difficult to differentiate from barotrauma.

2. That said damage is by CPAP, and not by the apnea or   other possible causes.

This could most be deduced by pulmonary markers before and after use of CPAP. If you don’t know the complete and comprehensive state of your pulmonary health prior to CPAP use, then any pulmonary damage subsequent to CPAP use will be difficult to trace, er, Tracey.

3. That if CPAP damage does occur, it is does substantially   more damage than either other forms of (possibly ineffective)   treatments, or by leaving the apnea untreated.

This has got to be the most penetrating statement I have ever heard.  This is the epiphany.  Weighing the risks.  Therefore, weighing *all* the risks is better than only having some of the more palatable risks available for scrutiny.

For example, my CPAP setting is set at 9cm, but the negative pressure measured in my lungs without CPAP hovered around -28cm. You’d have to devise a study which could figure out which pressure was the problematic one— the high negative pressure before, or the low positive pressure after. Not sure if saxophone players would necessarily be a good study group either. They may have a great deal of negative pressure, rather than positive.

Although, barotrauma in device therapy can likely be found *most* during exhalation phases of respiration, when there is the most opposition of forces. Maybe a CPAP that could hit an A sharp?

Quite frankly, designing a good study is hard, and takes a great deal of expertise and background knowledge in the area– as I know, having just completed some research of my own, and watched it be picked apart by collegues. T Sconyers

It is easy for device manufacturers and even clinicians to poo poo barotrauma in device therapy, since it IS a slow process, and since there is no better treatment for sleep apnea available today (though the corporation does run the tenor of treatment). We hope it is such a slow process as to be inconsequential within a normal lifespan. But, a lifetime has not passed since the advent of the first CPAP (someone born then is now an older teenager). Cigarette packages must contain caveats about cancer, but medical ventilators do not have to mention barotrauma. Whodathunk Doug

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In article <1998052201452400.VAA28…@ladder03.news.aol.com

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        polkano…@aol.com (PolkaNoble) wrote:

Saxophonists do get a lot of negative pressure, especially when they play out of tune.   We have a lot of other jokes about tubas, piccolos, and alto horns (among others) but positive pressure is used to blow ALL wind instruments except the harmonica which does use negative pressure for some of its notes. Not sure if saxophone players would necessarily be a good<BR study group either. They may have a great deal of negative<BR pressure, snip

Positive for the wind instrument, negative for the player, yes? My main point is that when you play an instrument, you are exhaling forcefully. When you are using CPAP, you are inhaling forcefully. May not be the same thing. Oh course, if you were to hook up a CPAP to a piccolo, then you may have an adequate study T Sconyers

Response:

Since these ideas are thrown around rather liberally . . . As I perceive it, "positive pressure" is any pressure exerted that is higher than atmospheric pressure.  "Negative pressure" is any pressure exerted that is lower than atmospheric pressure. If you blow through a straw, then this is positive pressure, and blowing a "dent" in the top of your coke shows that there is higher pressure than atmospheric pressure.  Your lungs are strong enough to overcome outside pressure, and can push air out the lungs into the outside air, which is positive pressure. Negative pressure is sucking through a straw.  Here, the expanding mouth or lungs make it so that atmospheric pressure pushes air into the mouth.  The mouth or lungs here generate negative pressure until the mouth or lungs are filled with outside air. Air will always go from the positive side to the negative side. Positive pressure will blow leaves off of a sidewalk; negative pressure will suck pennies into a vacuum cleaner. Technically, pressure is based upon number of air molecules per volume.  If the volume is increased (inhalation) then air density goes down, gets thinner, and this is negative pressure, allowing external air to fill the lungs.  If there is upper airway obstruction, then the lungs can still expand (try to expand), increasing the volume, creating a negative pressure, even though outside positive pressure will not be permitted to enter the lungs (until that almighty awakening to lighter sleep!). Therefore, inhalation, or any attempts at inhalation, generate negative pressure within the lungs. Exhalation, or any attempts at exhalation, generate positive pressure within the lungs. **************************************************

Response:

Doug, Your explaination of positive and negative pressure is exactly the same as I assumed in my posts, wordplay on psycological positive and negative pressure is a musician’s little joke.  Anyone playing out of tune would be subject to "negative pressure" from his peers. Maybe I didn’t read your post closely enough, or missed a post.  Clarify  a question if you will.  It seems to me that, given the structure of the laungs, the negative pressure exerted when an apneic attempts to breathe in would do far more damage than the same amount of positive pressure from a CPAP.  I can easily believe negative pressures of 25 to 35 cm H2O are generated by such an attempt. As you have pointed out, the treatment may have a downside, but it is far better than the disease. PolkaNoble (Max Tunnell)

Response:

In article <1998052514222500.KAA06…@ladder03.news.aol.com

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  polkano…@aol.com (PolkaNoble) wrote:

Doug, Your explaination of positive and negative pressure is exactly the same as I assumed in my posts, wordplay on psycological positive and negative pressure is a musician’s little joke.  Anyone playing out of tune would be subject to "negative pressure" from his peers.

In your posts, that pun did give me pause to grin.

Maybe I didn’t read your post closely enough, or missed a post.  Clarify  a question if you will.  It seems to me that, given the structure of the laungs, the negative pressure exerted when an apneic attempts to breathe in would do far more damage than the same amount of positive pressure from a CPAP.  I can easily believe negative pressures of 25 to 35 cm H2O are generated by such an attempt. As you have pointed out, the treatment may have a downside, but it is far better than the disease.

Inhalation does indeed cause negative pressure within the lungs, and this pressure remains negative until the inhalation is complete. Exhalation, on the other hand, involves a natural recoil of lung tissues, and generates a positive intrapulmonary pressure.  Exhalation does not use any muscles, unless ventilation is challenged.  Recoil of the lung occurs naturally from interstitial elastin fibers as well as the attraction of alveolar surfactant molecules to each other (surface tension of the alveolar spheres).  Within the thorax, a lung will collapse in exhalation until the pleural suction ceases the implosion, which leaves an alveolar pressure equal to that of the atmosphere.  Outside of the thorax, a lung will collapse until its air content is completely emptied.  Therefore, it is natural for a lung to collapse. Negative pressures found in inhalation keep the alveoli from "fully" inflating until inhalation is complete.  Even at peak inspiration found in resting-respiration the alveolar compliment is never fully inflated. Therefore, the negative pressure of inhalation against obstruction may actually prevent the alveoli from distending, which becomes more prominent upon *exhalation*. The unrelieved negative pressure of obstructed inhalation may make an alveolus more prone, actually, to "collapse", which is in fact its natural tendency.  An alveolus naturally wishes to collapse in microscopic convolutions owing to attractive forces of its surfactant (WOW!).  Intrapulmonary negative pressure would tend to suck an alveolus in rather than distend it out. Therefore, since of issue is *distension* of an alveolus, the only thing that can cause distension is *exhalation*, and, in particular, vigorous exhalation, to where there is now inordinate *positive* pressure relative to pleural pressure.  Mechanical inflation of a torpid lung is also positive pressure. Personally, I believe you are right that excessive negative pressures found in obstructive breathing can create pulmonary trauma itself, though this type of trauma I could not speculate upon.  It could be reverse-distensive trauma, although reverse distension might most resemble alveolar collapse, which is a natural tendency.  It could be capillary compression and ensuing changes in circulatory rates, etc.  Inspiring against obstruction likely facilitates ongoing implosion of the upper airway.  I can only believe that much COPD found in apnea stems from such alveolar distortions as inhalations against obstruction. Using CPAP has got to be better than not using it — if for nothing else than quality of life.  If CPAP were not so lucrative, tracheostomy would be challenged and perfected.  Any longterm consequences of CPAP await to be seen, which we hope are negligible or non-existent over a normal lifespan. Doug —–== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==—– http://www.dejanews.com/   Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading

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In article <6kcau7$eu…@nnrp1.dejanews.com

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        dr…@inovion.com wrote: <description of pressure in lungs deleted

Doug, can you cite references for this? T Sconyers

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<description of pressure in lungs deleted Doug, can you cite references for this?

Tracy, the first paragraph comes from information in a physician- reference series of books known as the CIBA Collection, volume Respiratory System. Information regarding barotrauma and alveolar distension (volutrauma) comes from studies I have already posted to the group. The remainder was opinion, which I would claim is in-part extrapolation from these sources. Doug

Response:

I’ve seen remarks here about CPAP-related barotrauma, and I’ve heard elsewhere that some long-term saxophone players report pulmonary trouble in later life. I’ve no idea about the relative pressures involved, but perhaps someone here could cast a bit of light? Maybe by studying old saxophonists we could make a guess about the long-term effects of CPAP without doing the experiment the slow way. — Ned nospam = elden

Response:

Since I am in my mid fifties, I have no personal experience on the subject, but I have been involved in community music for over 20 years.  There is antectdotal evidence that, to the contrary, wind instrument playing my be beneficial to the lungs. I have a number of friends in their seventies and eighties who are active players.  They have their share of health problems, but seldom, if ever, are they related to the lungs and heart problems seem to fewer than in the general population. This probably means nothing.  It is encouraging to me.  One of these is a very powerful professional trumpet player about my age with OSA and treated with CPAP.  I play baritone horn and tuba.  It seems that this training have strengthened our diaphram and intercostal muscles to make CPAP at relatively high pressure easier for us. In any case one old tuba-playing friend of mine who died about four years ago at age 80+ had a number of health problems but his doctor always thought the condition of his lungs was remarkably good.   I have no real proof, but I believe a study would reveal more benefits than problems from wind-instrument playing. PolkaNoble (Max Tunnell) "If Music be the food of love, play on"– The beginning of "Twelfth Night" by William Shakespere

Response:

In article <1998052118275100.OAA14…@ladder01.news.aol.com

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  polkano…@aol.com (PolkaNoble) wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Since I am in my mid fifties, I have no personal experience on the subject, but I have been involved in community music for over 20 years.  There is antectdotal evidence that, to the contrary, wind instrument playing my be beneficial to the lungs. I have a number of friends in their seventies and eighties who are active players.  They have their share of health problems, but seldom, if ever, are they related to the lungs and heart problems seem to fewer than in the general population. This probably means nothing.  It is encouraging to me.  One of these is a very powerful professional trumpet player about my age with OSA and treated with CPAP.  I play baritone horn and tuba.  It seems that this training have strengthened our diaphram and intercostal muscles to make CPAP at relatively high pressure easier for us. In any case one old tuba-playing friend of mine who died about four years ago at age 80+ had a number of health problems but his doctor always thought the condition of his lungs was remarkably good. I have no real proof, but I believe a study would reveal more benefits than problems from wind-instrument playing.

Little is really known about barotrauma (or Barry Manilow).  The comprehensive study to-date comes from the journal *Intensive Care Radiology*, in an article titled simply "Barotrauma" (1996, Yale). I’m not sure what they meant, but the study said: "Using intermittent positive pressure breeathing (IPPB) in dogs, Ovenfors found that grossly visible PIE [pulmonary interstitial emphysema] occurred regularly with PIP [peak inspiratory pressure] between 30 and 35 cm H2O.  At 25 cm H2O of peak pressure, PIE was not observed grossly, but it was present microscopically if the IPPB was continued for 12 hours or more . . . . The inspiratory pressures required to produce PIE in humans are not exactly known, but it probably occurs at approximately the same levels as in experimental animals.  Because the normal lung is inflated to total capacity with transpulmonary pressures of 35 cm H2O, it is conceivable that damaged alveoli could rupture even before such pressures are reached. . . . It is an emerging concept supported by recent studies that alveolar overdistention, so called "volutrauma," may play a more significant role than peak inspiratory pressure in the development of barotrauma." So that, barotrauma may be complex.  In placing a balloon into a beer bottle, you can exert very high pressures and not damage the balloon; however, take it out of the bottle, and lesser pressures will distend and pop the balloon.  So this new term "volutrauma" seems to be the appropriate paradigm with regards to barotrauma. Barotrauma from wind instruments may depend upon the nature of the thoracic cage and its ability to support pulmonary structures and prevent alveolar distension.  It may depend upon the way the musician breathes — whether diaphramatically, or by utilizing the higher lungs and intercostal musculature of respiration.  It might depend upon the wind instrument itself, or the number of gigs or jam sessions amassed.  It may depend upon preexisting pulmonary disease as well. Furthermore, the idea of barotrauma has never been clear.  Critical care settings have always regarded it only as pleural rupture or a literal tear of the sack about the lungs.  New medicine suggests subtle damage to the alveolar wall constitutes barotrauma and that it is far more discrete.  Therefore, a wind musician could conceivably have subtle barotrauma, say, with dyspnea, but not be regarded as having barotrauma by traditional markers of airleak phenomena in the lungs. There is at least one medical study documenting barotrauma in a partygoer who blew up several dozen balloons. With regards to wind instruments, much like they did in the balloon study, they determined how many cm H20 pressure it would take to blow up one balloon (or to blow a high note out of a horn?!) and then make comparisons with pressures used in positive pressure ventilation. We will get nowhere with barotrauma until mainstream medicine regards it as a subtle process only discernable microscopically, and with the ability to differentiate it from underlying pulmonary disease. Doug —–== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==—– http://www.dejanews.com/   Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading

Response:

In article <wluJzBA+qAZ1E…@elden.demon.co.uk

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        Ned Clack <N…@nospam.demon.co.uk

wrote: I’ve seen remarks here about CPAP-related barotrauma, and I’ve heard elsewhere that some long-term saxophone players report pulmonary trouble in later life. I’ve no idea about the relative pressures involved, but perhaps someone here could cast a bit of light? Maybe by studying old saxophonists we could make a guess about the long-term effects of CPAP without doing the experiment the slow way.

Perhaps, but you have to be able to establish: 1. That damage to the lungs is occurring 2. That said damage is by CPAP, and not by the apnea or    other possible causes. 3. That if CPAP damage does occur, it is does substantially    more damage than either other forms of (possibly ineffective)    treatments, or by leaving the apnea untreated. For example, my CPAP setting is set at 9cm, but the negative pressure measured in my lungs without CPAP hovered around -28cm. You’d have to devise a study which could figure out which pressure was the problematic one— the high negative pressure before, or the low positive pressure after. Not sure if saxophone players would necessarily be a good study group either. They may have a great deal of negative pressure, rather than positive. Quite frankly, designing a good study is hard, and takes a great deal of expertise and background knowledge in the area– as I know, having just completed some research of my own, and watched it be picked apart by collegues. T Sconyers – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

– Ned nospam = elden

Response:

Saxophonists do get a lot of negative pressure, especially when they play out of tune.   We have a lot of other jokes about tubas, piccolos, and alto horns (among others) but positive pressure is used to blow ALL wind instruments except the harmonica which does use negative pressure for some of its notes. We do sometimes refer to a bad player in terms that equate to "negative pressure", but that is strictly figuratively speaking (grin). Still, I will pass on the negative pressure comment to some Sax Men I know with a since of humor (It helps to have one if you play the sax–See what I mean?) I’ll see if there is some info on exactly how much pressure is generated for instruments in various ranges.  I believe studies have been done on that.   I suspect that for most instruments ( high trumpet excepted) the pressure will be considerably below the 28cm H2O you referred to, probably below 15, and it would be positive. PolkaNoble (Max Tunnell) "The Heckelphone is an ill wind that nobody blows good"– Attributed to Auturo Toscannini but I doubt he said that exactly. T Sconyers wrote snip

Not sure if saxophone players would necessarily be a good<BR study group either. They may have a great deal of negative<BR pressure,

snip

Response:

I am on CPAP at 18cm. When I play sax or clarinet, it feels like much less resistance than the CPAP. Although the 18cm does feel a lot like a clarinet with a way-too-hard reed. regards, eric pearson er…@nospammindspring.com On 22 May 1998 01:45:24 GMT, polkano…@aol.com (PolkaNoble) wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Saxophonists do get a lot of negative pressure, especially when they play out of tune.   We have a lot of other jokes about tubas, piccolos, and alto horns (among others) but positive pressure is used to blow ALL wind instruments except the harmonica which does use negative pressure for some of its notes. We do sometimes refer to a bad player in terms that equate to "negative pressure", but that is strictly figuratively speaking (grin). Still, I will pass on the negative pressure comment to some Sax Men I know with a since of humor (It helps to have one if you play the sax–See what I mean?) I’ll see if there is some info on exactly how much pressure is generated for instruments in various ranges.  I believe studies have been done on that.   I suspect that for most instruments ( high trumpet excepted) the pressure will be considerably below the 28cm H2O you referred to, probably below 15, and it would be positive. PolkaNoble (Max Tunnell) "The Heckelphone is an ill wind that nobody blows good"– Attributed to Auturo Toscannini but I doubt he said that exactly. T Sconyers wrote snip Not sure if saxophone players would necessarily be a good<BR study group either. They may have a great deal of negative<BR pressure, snip

Response:

Question:

Ann, Just wanted to compliment you on your great response to the man asking about the side effects of SJW.  Great job! Ginny

Response:

Just wanted to compliment you on your great response to the man asking about the side effects of SJW.  Great job! Ginny

     Why, thank you SO much, Ginny — you really made my evening!!  :-) Anne  ^  ^  {__} The only problem with finally making it to the top of the mountain is that the only way to go from there is DOWN.

Response:

ORIGINAL MESSAGE BELOW YOu mentioned that you are not interested in the Prozac "nation" type of drugs.  Please don’t forget that St. John’s Wort, even though it’s an herb is still a chemical.  In particular, it is a MAO (Monoamine Oxidase Inhibitor).  There are many prescription drugs that are chemically related. All MAO inhibitor drugs have problems with interactions with OTC medications as well as many foods that contain high amounts of Tyrosine (i.e., aged meats and cheeses).  If your depression is severe enough, I wouln’t discount the effectiveness of certain prescription drugs.  Prozac got a bad rap because of its misuse by doctors that wanted to prescribe for things such as weight loss, etc.  Only a trained Psychiatrist would know when to prescribe because Prozac can bring on manic episodes if the person is predisposed to bi-polar depression. Many people think (the uninformed ones) that herbs are completely safe because they are natural.  They are still powerful chemicals and you have to be completely informed about their appropriate use.  Personally, I have tried St. John’s Wort with no effect.  I am currently on Effexor and have seen dramatic improvement in the span of only 2 weeks. Hope this information helps.  Please be aware, that the above dialogue is my opinion. Jeff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I have a question regarding possible side-effects from St John’s Wort and have not been able to find an answer anywhere else. I’ve looked in over a dozen book that mention SJW/Hypercium and checked with two pharmacists, yet found no mention or possible explanation for my situation. Having wrestled with depression for some time (the diagnosis from a Doc was Dystimia), it was suggested by a friend who suffers from bouts of depression, and-off the record-by a psychiatrist, that I try SJW and see if it helped. The initial results were *very* promising: I felt balanced, energized and normal for the first time in I don’t know how long. Aside from some slight indigestion and grumbling bowels (which were not a problem when I took the SJW with a good breakfast), there were no immediate difficulties. However, about one month into taking SJW I began to have trouble sitting for long periods due to what felt like swollen testicles. They became very sensitive and I began to experience that most unpleasant of male maladies-cracking one’s nuts-on a daily basis. At first I thought I had another hernia (having had one 10 years ago), for the pressure and irritation on and around my lower abdomen was similar. Still, the pressure was different enough-and had started after I started taking SJW-that I suspected otherwise. Perhaps there was an unfortunate interaction between the SJW and some of the other medications I have to take (in this case, for allergies and for psoriasis). I stopped taking everything, and within 10 days the pressure on my testicles was gone. I’d like to start taking the SJW again, but want first to see if there is any knowledge or documentaion of side effects of this nature. The manufacturer’s blanket warning on the SJW bottle (more of a "cover your ass" for the parent company than a conveyor of information) mentions that one should consider avoiding the product if you’ve had prostrate enlargement in the past-yet I have found no where any mention of either prostrate enlargement or testicular swelling as a side-effect of hypercium. One book on herbal medicines did mention that while taking SJW one should abstain from coffee, tea, alcohol ("Great!…now what am I going to drink?!?) and a huge list of foods…but gave no explanation as to why someone should alter their diet such. It’s very important to me to clear up this question (hence my willingness to let it "all hang out" for the on-line world to see), for the positive effects of St Joh’s were extremely helpful in getting my life back on track. (And for the record, while I ‘ve been prescribed  Prozac, I am in no way interested in joining the ProzacNation and dealing with my situation chemically. This is an absolute last-resort measure.) Thanks to anyone who has an answer to this, J.P.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a question regarding possible side-effects from St John’s Wort and have not been able to find an answer anywhere else. I’ve looked in over a dozen book that mention SJW/Hypercium and checked with two pharmacists, yet found no mention or possible explanation for my situation. Having wrestled with depression for some time (the diagnosis from a Doc was Dystimia), it was suggested by a friend who suffers from bouts of depression, and-off the record-by a psychiatrist, that I try SJW and see if it helped. The initial results were *very* promising: I felt balanced, energized and normal for the first time in I don’t know how long. Aside from some slight indigestion and grumbling bowels (which were not a problem when I took the SJW with a good breakfast), there were no immediate difficulties. However, about one month into taking SJW I began to have trouble sitting for long periods due to what felt like swollen testicles. They became very sensitive and I began to experience that most unpleasant of male maladies-cracking one’s nuts-on a daily basis. At first I thought I had another hernia (having had one 10 years ago), for the pressure and irritation on and around my lower abdomen was similar. Still, the pressure was different enough-and had started after I started taking SJW-that I suspected otherwise. Perhaps there was an unfortunate interaction between the SJW and some of the other medications I have to take (in this case, for allergies and for psoriasis).

Testicular swelling is a known possible side-effect of some of the tricyclic antidepressant drugs such as imipramine.  I suspect that St. John’s Wort’s mode of action is similar to the tricyclic class of antidepressants and shares this possible side-effect with them. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I stopped taking everything, and within 10 days the pressure on my testicles was gone. I’d like to start taking the SJW again, but want first to see if there is any knowledge or documentaion of side effects of this nature. The manufacturer’s blanket warning on the SJW bottle (more of a "cover your ass" for the parent company than a conveyor of information) mentions that one should consider avoiding the product if you’ve had prostrate enlargement in the past-yet I have found no where any mention of either prostrate enlargement or testicular swelling as a side-effect of hypercium. One book on herbal medicines did mention that while taking SJW one should abstain from coffee, tea, alcohol ("Great!…now what am I going to drink?!?) and a huge list of foods…but gave no explanation as to why someone should alter their diet such. It’s very important to me to clear up this question (hence my willingness to let it "all hang out" for the on-line world to see), for the positive effects of St Joh’s were extremely helpful in getting my life back on track. (And for the record, while I ‘ve been prescribed  Prozac, I am in no way interested in joining the ProzacNation and dealing with my situation chemically. This is an absolute last-resort measure.)

I don’t understand your reluctance to try Prozac since St. John’s Wort is also a chemical treatment of depression. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Thanks to anyone who has an answer to this, J.P.

Response:

However, about one month into taking SJW I began to have trouble sitting for long periods due to what felt like swollen testicles. They became very sensitive and I began to experience that most unpleasant of male maladies-cracking one’s nuts-on a daily basis. At first I thought I had another hernia (having had one 10 years ago), for the pressure and irritation on and around my lower abdomen was similar. Still, the pressure was different enough-and had started after I started taking SJW-that I suspected otherwise.

     J.P.  – I’m so glad to hear that you have had such good results overall with St. John’s Wort.  Most of what has been said about your problem in this thread so far has been fairly good advice (particularly that concerning the need for being careful of the MAOI-like effects of SJW, and possible VERY adverse food/drug interactions because of that).      I haven’t heard of the discomfort that you are describing PRECISELY, but I have heard of something a little bit similar.  A patient contacted me to ask about a rather strange sort of experience that he was having, wherein he would develop considerable abdominal distention and discomfort, while finding himself to also be developing a spontaneous penile erection at the same time.      After extensive questioning, it was finally determined that this person would develop these strange, distressing symptoms after ingesting an assortment of herbs that he was taking in order to "enhance" his immune system.  As you will see from other posts on this board, just because a preparation is sold as an "herbal" preparation over the counter, without a prescription; that in NO WAY means that it is entirely innocuous!!      In this other person’s case, I finally figured out that what he was having was an odd sort of allergic reaction to the herbs that he was taking, and this was how it was manifesting for him.  When I pointed this out to him, he then related to me an experience that he had had of taking a preparation containing the herb yohimbine; and then having this strange type of side effect SO severely that he (in his own words) nearly passed out and ejaculated at the same time while riding on the subway.      It sounds to me, J.P., as if what you are describing is some sort of mild allergice reaction to the SJW.  One VERY common response to an allergic reaction to something is to retain fluid.  My guess would be that you might very well just be experiencing/noticing the fluid retention of an allergic reaction to the SJW primarily in the scrotal and testicular area.      Part of the biochemical reaction of an allergic reaction is for the body to release excess amounts of a body chemical known as "histamine".  One of the effects of histamine is to mediate sexual response.  In the case of this other individual, he was experiencing that effect somewhat in the extreme.        Perhaps you are experiencing a combination of that, along with some fluid retention — and the resultant effect is the sensations that you have described.  Does what you experience resemble that old male malady commonly referred to colloquially as "blue balls"?  If so, then I would say that what you are experiencing IS indeed an excess histamine response.      If that is the case, you could try an over-the-counter antihistamine (such as ChlorTrimeton or Benadryl) to see if that might help to relieve this problem.  You might also try adding something such as Zantac (which is a partial histamine H-2 blocker), too.        Unfortunately, I don’t know if the addition of something such as these histamine blockers will negate the beneficial effects of the SJW.  Probably the only way to tell is to just simply give it a try.  (They shouldn’t interact adversely with the SJW — I can’t tell you about the other medications that you may be taking, though.)      Although this probably isn’t of any concern to you at this time of year, one other not-insignificant side effect of SJW is photosensitivity.  What this means is that you need to be VERY careful of exposure to ultra-violet light. If you get too much while taking the SJW, you could very easily develop a very bad sunburn and/or bad rash.      Just for the record, to correct a few other minor things that have been said in this thread — it is TYRAMINE in various foods that is of concern when taking an MAOI — not tyrosine.  (Tyrosine is the precursor to tyramine, which then breaks down to norepinephrine in the body.  Not all tyrosine breaks down to tyramine, though; and not all foods high in tyramine are also high in tyrosine.)        MAOI drugs can interact adversely with foods that are high in tyramine (as well as with numerous other medications), and cause a VERY serious — possibly even fatal — hypertensive crisis, J.P.  That is the reason why that book advised against the ingestion of certain foods and beverages when taking SJW.      Also, you probably were told that you suffer from "dysthymia" — not "distimia".  And don’t be TOO quick to knock Prozac — it has saved many people’s lives, and greatly improved many other people’s lives.  No — it’s not a miracle nor a panacea — but nor is it the much-maligned boogey-man that it’s been made out to be, either.  Much like many things in this world, it is an inanimate object — and is what we make of it — good OR bad.      Anyway, I hope that this might be of some help to you.  Good luck! Anne  ^  ^  {__} Have you ever felt as if you’ve finally seen the light at the end of the tunnel — only to discover that it’s really a locomotive aimed straight at you?

Response:

You mentioned the use of Prozac as a way to treat depression, and the "Prozac nation."   I am in no way interested in joining the ProzacNation and dealing with my situation chemically. During my course of treatment for depression I was prescribed several medications, including Prozac, Effexor, Zoloft, and Imiprimine.  Imiprimine was one that I did not tolerate well.  My Psych. then prescribed Zoloft, To which I eventually developed a tolerance; then Effexor, same problem; then Prozac, which I took for a little over 2yrs.  I am now taking SJW to help combat some situational "blues" and a mild case of Seasonal Affected Disorder (Wintertime Blues). During this time I am ACTIVELY PARTICIPATING IN PSYCHOTHERAPY.   My piont is that no one can Heal depression with just chemicals.  If you don’t deal with the life situations that are exacerbating your depression, you may end up taking chemicals for the rest of your life. I am aware that there are some people out there who are diagnosed with depression as a chemical imbalance.  This may ne so, but far more use chemicals to keep from dealing with the shit floating around in their head.  In these situations the meds are just a cop-out. If you are interested in more about SJW try reading: THE NATURAL PROZAC PROGRAM by Johnathan Zeus M.D. For more info on depressioI recommend tracking down a copy of HEALING DEPRESSION, but I don’t have the author’s name handy. I’ll get off ny soapbox now. Rowan Rowan "To Do Is To Be." -Plato "To Be Is To Do." -Socrates "Do Be Do Be Do" -Sinatra

Response:

YOu mentioned that you are not interested in the Prozac "nation" type of drugs.  Please don’t forget that St. John’s Wort, even though it’s an herb is still a chemical.  In particular, it is a MAO (Monoamine Oxidase Inhibitor).  There are many prescription drugs that are chemically related. All MAO inhibitor drugs have problems with interactions with OTC medications as well as many foods that contain high amounts of Tyrosine (i.e., aged meats and cheeses).  If your depression is severe enough, I wouln’t discount the effectiveness of certain prescription drugs.  Prozac got a bad rap because of its misuse by doctors that wanted to prescribe for things such as weight loss, etc.  Only a trained Psychiatrist would know when to prescribe because Prozac can bring on manic episodes if the person is predisposed to bi-polar depression.

I’ve never heard of the prostate warning either (see original message below), but SJW’s mild MAOI property together with the allergy meds (if they contain ephedrine or pseudoephedrine [other no-no's?]) could theoretically cause some overactivation of the sympathetic nervous system (mostly high blood pressure), but again, I’ve never heard of testicle problems being part of the syndrome (I have heard of one man who experienced some kind of partial paralysis or loss of sensation in his penis on SJW).  You (J. P.) might want to ask your pharmacist if a MAOI _drug_ together with any of the meds you’re taking could cause your symptoms.  Regardless of the answer, if you’d like to stick with the SJW, a trial of it sans any meds that are contraindicated for people using MAOIs (your pharmacist, the web, or the library can give you the details) would be an option.   If you could let us/me know how it works out (I write about health — including SJW — professionally), I would appreciate it. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Many people think (the uninformed ones) that herbs are completely safe because they are natural.  They are still powerful chemicals and you have to be completely informed about their appropriate use.  Personally, I have tried St. John’s Wort with no effect.  I am currently on Effexor and have seen dramatic improvement in the span of only 2 weeks. Hope this information helps.  Please be aware, that the above dialogue is my opinion. Jeff I have a question regarding possible side-effects from St John’s Wort and have not been able to find an answer anywhere else. I’ve looked in over a dozen book that mention SJW/Hypercium and checked with two pharmacists, yet found no mention or possible explanation for my situation. Having wrestled with depression for some time (the diagnosis from a Doc was Dystimia), it was suggested by a friend who suffers from bouts of depression, and-off the record-by a psychiatrist, that I try SJW and see if it helped. The initial results were *very* promising: I felt balanced, energized and normal for the first time in I don’t know how long. Aside from some slight indigestion and grumbling bowels (which were not a problem when I took the SJW with a good breakfast), there were no immediate difficulties. However, about one month into taking SJW I began to have trouble sitting for long periods due to what felt like swollen testicles. They became very sensitive and I began to experience that most unpleasant of male maladies-cracking one’s nuts-on a daily basis. At first I thought I had another hernia (having had one 10 years ago), for the pressure and irritation on and around my lower abdomen was similar. Still, the pressure was different enough-and had started after I started taking SJW-that I suspected otherwise. Perhaps there was an unfortunate interaction between the SJW and some of the other medications I have to take (in this case, for allergies and for psoriasis). I stopped taking everything, and within 10 days the pressure on my testicles was gone. I’d like to start taking the SJW again, but want first to see if there is any knowledge or documentaion of side effects of this nature. The manufacturer’s blanket warning on the SJW bottle (more of a "cover your ass" for the parent company than a conveyor of information) mentions that one should consider avoiding the product if you’ve had prostrate enlargement in the past-yet I have found no where any mention of either prostrate enlargement or testicular swelling as a side-effect of hypercium. One book on herbal medicines did mention that while taking SJW one should abstain from coffee, tea, alcohol ("Great!…now what am I going to drink?!?) and a huge list of foods…but gave no explanation as to why someone should alter their diet such. It’s very important to me to clear up this question (hence my willingness to let it "all hang out" for the on-line world to see), for the positive effects of St Joh’s were extremely helpful in getting my life back on track. (And for the record, while I ‘ve been prescribed  Prozac, I am in no way interested in joining the ProzacNation and dealing with my situation chemically. This is an absolute last-resort measure.) Thanks to anyone who has an answer to this, J.P.

Syd                                      ****                                   Syd Baumel   author of Dealing With Depression Naturally (Keats Publishing Inc., 1995)

Response:

Dunno.. Sounds a bit ’strange’ to me.. But I have been wondering about the effects of "getting off" the stuff… Possibly (also?) just a coincidence, but I felt a ‘major case’ of the blues after going without the stuff for a few days awhile ago. Much worse than anything I can remember experiencing before starting to take the stuff!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I have a question regarding possible side-effects from St John’s Wort and have not been able to find an answer anywhere else. I’ve looked in over a dozen book that mention SJW/Hypercium and checked with two pharmacists, yet found no mention or possible explanation for my situation. Having wrestled with depression for some time (the diagnosis from a Doc was Dystimia), it was suggested by a friend who suffers from bouts of depression, and-off the record-by a psychiatrist, that I try SJW and see if it helped. The initial results were *very* promising: I felt balanced, energized and normal for the first time in I don’t know how long. Aside from some slight indigestion and grumbling bowels (which were not a problem when I took the SJW with a good breakfast), there were no immediate difficulties. However, about one month into taking SJW I began to have trouble sitting for long periods due to what felt like swollen testicles. They became very sensitive and I began to experience that most unpleasant of male maladies-cracking one’s nuts-on a daily basis. At first I thought I had another hernia (having had one 10 years ago), for the pressure and irritation on and around my lower abdomen was similar. Still, the pressure was different enough-and had started after I started taking SJW-that I suspected otherwise. Perhaps there was an unfortunate interaction between the SJW and some of the other medications I have to take (in this case, for allergies and for psoriasis). I stopped taking everything, and within 10 days the pressure on my testicles was gone. I’d like to start taking the SJW again, but want first to see if there is any knowledge or documentaion of side effects of this nature. The manufacturer’s blanket warning on the SJW bottle (more of a "cover your ass" for the parent company than a conveyor of information) mentions that one should consider avoiding the product if you’ve had prostrate enlargement in the past-yet I have found no where any mention of either prostrate enlargement or testicular swelling as a side-effect of hypercium. One book on herbal medicines did mention that while taking SJW one should abstain from coffee, tea, alcohol ("Great!…now what am I going to drink?!?) and a huge list of foods…but gave no explanation as to why someone should alter their diet such. It’s very important to me to clear up this question (hence my willingness to let it "all hang out" for the on-line world to see), for the positive effects of St Joh’s were extremely helpful in getting my life back on track. (And for the record, while I ‘ve been prescribed  Prozac, I am in no way interested in joining the ProzacNation and dealing with my situation chemically. This is an absolute last-resort measure.) Thanks to anyone who has an answer to this, J.P.

Response:

I have a question regarding possible side-effects from St John’s Wort and have not been able to find an answer anywhere else. I’ve looked in over a dozen book that mention SJW/Hypercium and checked with two pharmacists, yet found no mention or possible explanation for my situation. Having wrestled with depression for some time (the diagnosis from a Doc was Dystimia), it was suggested by a friend who suffers from bouts of depression, and-off the record-by a psychiatrist, that I try SJW and see if it helped. The initial results were *very* promising: I felt balanced, energized and normal for the first time in I don’t know how long. Aside from some slight indigestion and grumbling bowels (which were not a problem when I took the SJW with a good breakfast), there were no immediate difficulties. However, about one month into taking SJW I began to have trouble sitting for long periods due to what felt like swollen testicles. They became very sensitive and I began to experience that most unpleasant of male maladies-cracking one’s nuts-on a daily basis. At first I thought I had another hernia (having had one 10 years ago), for the pressure and irritation on and around my lower abdomen was similar. Still, the pressure was different enough-and had started after I started taking SJW-that I suspected otherwise. Perhaps there was an unfortunate interaction between the SJW and some of the other medications I have to take (in this case, for allergies and for psoriasis). I stopped taking everything, and within 10 days the pressure on my testicles was gone. I’d like to start taking the SJW again, but want first to see if there is any knowledge or documentaion of side effects of this nature. The manufacturer’s blanket warning on the SJW bottle (more of a "cover your ass" for the parent company than a conveyor of information) mentions that one should consider avoiding the product if you’ve had prostrate enlargement in the past-yet I have found no where any mention of either prostrate enlargement or testicular swelling as a side-effect of hypercium. One book on herbal medicines did mention that while taking SJW one should abstain from coffee, tea, alcohol ("Great!…now what am I going to drink?!?) and a huge list of foods…but gave no explanation as to why someone should alter their diet such. It’s very important to me to clear up this question (hence my willingness to let it "all hang out" for the on-line world to see), for the positive effects of St Joh’s were extremely helpful in getting my life back on track. (And for the record, while I ‘ve been prescribed  Prozac, I am in no way interested in joining the ProzacNation and dealing with my situation chemically. This is an absolute last-resort measure.) Thanks to anyone who has an answer to this, J.P.

Response: