Question:

says… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A patent does not last 20 or 30 years.  It is something like 7 or 11 years, (I don’t remember exactly). 20 years from the date it was filed with the patent office.  There are a few ways to extend them to a certain extent, if the patent office was really slow, or it took forever to get FDA approval. I thought so. Now, what if they "enhance" the design of the originally patented technology. Does the 20-year clock start over? I’m asking because it sounds like that’s what ALZA did for Concerta. They took their original design and added a coating of med on the outside so that it would release an initial dose of medication.

In that case I suspect that the patent is on the coating technology. — — –John Reply to jclarke at eye bee em dot net

Response:

The Concerta web page says that if you take 15 mg Methylphenidate 2x/day or 15 mg Methylphenidate 3x/day or 60 mg Methylphenidate-SR, then you should take  54 mg of Concerta every morning by taking a 36 mg and an 18 mg at the same time. Daily dosage above 54 mg is not recommended. The URL is http://www.concerta.net/info.html Katswan

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, I am going to my Doctor tomorrow, and he has expressed interest in trying Concerta. I have a question on this, however. I am an adult, 31 years old. I have been on 20mg (non-SR) Ritalin 3 times a day (60 mg total per day) for the past 5 years. Considering this, what dosage of Concerta should I be on? The 60 mg per day worked fine for me, but I dont see how that dose (per day) can be obtained from the size tablets being offered right now for Concerta (only 18mg or 36mg). I am at a total loss as to why there is no good indicators of what an adult should be taking for Concerta, if (s)he is coming from a regular release Ritalin dosage of 60mg per day? Taking 2 x 36mg. Concerta might be considered to be too high of a dose. There is a new 54mg coming out (I am wondering if it is out yet… possibly). But would this be enough for me? Also, I can find no literature that talks about how much (in mg) is released on the outside-coating ‘immediate release’ of Concerta tabs, and then, how much is released in each remaining layer (2 more layers), and at what time are they released? I went to Concerta.net, but cannot find any data that answers these questions. Can anyone provide some answers to these questions? Thanks. Chris

Response:

I just had a thought, they have generic Ritalin SR, do they have it yet for Concerta? <Christopher wrote No, it is brand new, less than one year old. (Curious again) How long does it take for a generic to be approved and shipping? I think only generics are approved for the type of insurance my daughter has, unless there is a good reason she has to take a brand name medication.

When a new med is developed, that company that developed it has exclusive rights to market it, as with any patented invention. After, I think, 20 or 30 years or so, they lose the exclusivity and other products can copy their design/formula. They can also "lease" the right to use the patented formula/design during their exclusive rights period. ALZA’s web site says that their OROS delivery system has been used for 20 years, but that Concerta uses an enhanced OROS system, so the clock may have restarted ticking, it may be like a new patent. Most health/medical insurance policies push generics (list of covered meds). When my daughter was on Ritalin, I had to make certain the doctor put "Brand name medically necessary" on every prescription, or our previous insurance company would only pay for the generic, since it was available. To get our new insurance company to pay for Concerta, we had to jump through some hoops. The doctor had to write a letter (for which I had to provide him information since we’re new to the practice), detailing all the meds daughter has been on, why they weren’t effective or were problematic, and why we think Concerta will be different. Since daughter’s tried everything, they approved our request and are paying for Concerta. They did not approve it for son, however, as he hasn’t tried Ritalin-SR (much cheaper than Concerta and theoretically similar). I won’t put him on Ritalin-SR, however, because I think the dose is too high for him. When he was on Ritalin, he took 5mg 3x/day. He currently takes 5mg Adderall 2x/day. No way do these dosages compare to 20 mg R-SR, which would be expected to dump 20mg of meds into his system in 4 hours less than he got 15mg of meds (and twice as much meds as he’s taking now). He doesn’t need more med, he needs it spread over a longer day. So I paid for his first month’s Rx for Concerta (nearly $70). Now that we know it’s working well for him, the doctor will write another letter requesting approval. Katswan

Response:

<part of reply snipped They did not approve it for son, however, as he hasn’t tried Ritalin-SR (much cheaper than Concerta and theoretically similar). I won’t put him on Ritalin-SR, however, because I think the dose is too high for him. When he was on Ritalin, he took 5mg 3x/day. He currently takes 5mg Adderall 2x/day. No way do these dosages compare to 20 mg R-SR, which would be expected to dump 20mg of meds into his system in 4 hours less than he got 15mg of meds (and twice as much meds as he’s taking now). He doesn’t need more med, he needs it spread over a longer day. So I paid for his first month’s Rx for Concerta (nearly $70). Now that we know it’s working well for him, the doctor will write another letter requesting approval. Katswan

Thanks for the reply. It is something for me to think about.        Norma   <Sigline space for rent

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just had a thought, they have generic Ritalin SR, do they have it yet for Concerta? <Christopher wrote No, it is brand new, less than one year old. (Curious again) How long does it take for a generic to be approved and shipping? I think only generics are approved for the type of insurance my daughter has, unless there is a good reason she has to take a brand name medication. When a new med is developed, that company that developed it has exclusive rights to market it, as with any patented invention. After, I think, 20 or 30 years or so, they lose the exclusivity and other products can copy their design/formula.

A patent does not last 20 or 30 years.  It is something like 7 or 11 years, (I don’t remember exactly). Copyrights last longer than patents and can be renewed.  Copyrights don’t cover the same thing; they protect expressions of ideas, like books or pictures. Patents give companies (or people) the exclusive right to construct or sell or use a process or principle of operation. However, to get copyright protection for a period, you must disclose exactly how to do it, and anyone can get copies from the patent office after it has expired. Alternatively, companies can just keep things secret.  These are trade secrets, but if someone else comes up with the same idea, the company has nothing they can legally do about it. -Chris Eliot

Response:

says… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just had a thought, they have generic Ritalin SR, do they have it yet for Concerta? <Christopher wrote No, it is brand new, less than one year old. (Curious again) How long does it take for a generic to be approved and shipping? I think only generics are approved for the type of insurance my daughter has, unless there is a good reason she has to take a brand name medication. When a new med is developed, that company that developed it has exclusive rights to market it, as with any patented invention. After, I think, 20 or 30 years or so, they lose the exclusivity and other products can copy their design/formula. A patent does not last 20 or 30 years.  It is something like 7 or 11 years, (I don’t remember exactly). Copyrights last longer than patents and can be renewed.  Copyrights don’t cover the same thing; they protect expressions of ideas, like books or pictures. Patents give companies (or people) the exclusive right to construct or sell or use a process or principle of operation. However, to get copyright protection for a period, you must disclose exactly how to do it, and anyone can get copies from the patent office after it has expired.

Well, sorta.  The "game", I am told by folks who have cause to know such things, is to tell enough to get the patent but not enough that someone can reproduce the technology.  Georgia Tech has a course in which you are given a patent and required to design a working device based on that patent.  It very quickly becomes evident how much information is _not_ included in the patent.  Of course this assumes that the device described by the patent will actually work.  One engineer I knew collected whacky patents for stuff that couldn’t possibly work–had his office wallpapered with them. Alternatively, companies can just keep things secret.  These are trade secrets, but if someone else comes up with the same idea, the company has nothing they can legally do about it. -Chris Eliot

– — –John Reply to jclarke at eye bee em dot net

Response:

We switched daughter back to Adderall this morning largely based on what daughter was telling us. It just wasn’t working for her. Now we her taking 30 long however I wonder if she can take another 20 mg dose around 2PM? Is there an Adderall website?? Is anyone taking Adderall this way, three doses a day? Last time we talked to her doctor we found that she was splitting her afternoon dose by taking 10 mg at lunch plus 10 mg later in the afternoon which the the lower split dose. This was one of the reasons he suggested trying Concerta

Response:

A patent does not last 20 or 30 years.  It is something like 7 or 11 years, (I don’t remember exactly).

20 years from the date it was filed with the patent office.  There are a few ways to extend them to a certain extent, if the patent office was really slow, or it took forever to get FDA approval.

Response:

A patent does not last 20 or 30 years.  It is something like 7 or 11 years, (I don’t remember exactly). 20 years from the date it was filed with the patent office.  There are a few ways to extend them to a certain extent, if the patent office was really slow, or it took forever to get FDA approval.

Really?? OK, I didn’t think it was so long.

Response:

A patent does not last 20 or 30 years.  It is something like 7 or 11 years, (I don’t remember exactly). 20 years from the date it was filed with the patent office.  There are a few ways to extend them to a certain extent, if the patent office was really slow, or it took forever to get FDA approval.

I thought so. Now, what if they "enhance" the design of the originally patented technology. Does the 20-year clock start over? I’m asking because it sounds like that’s what ALZA did for Concerta. They took their original design and added a coating of med on the outside so that it would release an initial dose of medication. Katswan

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anyone know of a free online PDR reference for Concerta and Adderall? We are at 56 mg/day on a 14yr old and wonder if we have the option of increasing or possibly we may end up going back to the Adderall and try to figure out a better way of managing its level As a medic, I would recommend talking to her Dr first. PDR’s should be available at most libraries. While my USP DI is a bit old (1996, they ain’t cheap), the usual pediatric dose for 6 years of age and older for Adderall, states that the dose does not usually exceed 40 mg daily. Concerta is not listed, as it is newer than my book. I saw a company chart comparing 18 mg concerta with 5 mg Ritalin taken three times a day. My guess is that there is some loss due to the special delivery capsule, and that otherwise you can do very rough dosing estimates by comparing 18 mg concerta to 15 mg Ritalin spread out over a day.  This is only my guess, though; no one who understands about it has told me anything like this.

That’s how our pediatrician explained it to us. — Light, Love, & Laughter, Kitten, Goddess of Mischief "Thousands of years ago, cats were worshipped as gods. Cats have never forgotten this." – Anonymous "Just for today, do not worry;  Just for today, do not anger; Earn your living honestly; Honor your parents, teachers and elders; Show gratitude for every living thing."- Dr. Mikao Usui

Response:

As a medic, I would recommend talking to her Dr first. PDR’s should be available at most libraries.

Concerta does not appear in our Libraries 2000 PDR and of course although I have to talk to her psychiatrist before we increase (ie to get a script) I was wondering if increasing the dose was an option. I don’t think she gets the kick (maybe poor choice of words) that she got from the Adderall. The Concerta is probably much slower and more gradual delivery and change in the blood level.

Response:

I saw a company chart comparing 18 mg concerta with 5 mg Ritalin taken three times a day. My guess is that there is some loss due to the special delivery capsule, and that otherwise you can do very rough dosing estimates by comparing 18 mg concerta to 15 mg Ritalin spread out over a day.  This is only my guess, though; no one who understands about it has told me anything like this. That’s how our pediatrician explained it to us.

I just had a thought, they have generic Ritalin SR, do they have it yet for Concerta?  Curious,            Norma        Norma   <Sigline space for rent

Response:

I got confused about the attributions here.  Sorry if I’m misquoting. I saw a company chart comparing 18 mg concerta with 5 mg Ritalin taken three times a day. My guess is that there is some loss due to the special delivery capsule, and that otherwise you can do very rough dosing estimates by comparing 18 mg concerta to 15 mg Ritalin spread out over a day.  This is only my guess, though; no one who understands about it has told me anything like this.

That’s how we’ve switched dosages here. Son went from 5mg Ritalin 3x/day to 5mg Adderall 2x/day (but really needing a 3rd dose too late to give it to him) to 18mg Concerta 1x/day. Daughter went from 20mg Ritalin-SR in the AM plus 10mg Ritalin regular in the PM (and still never being stable in the meds’ effects) to 10mg Adderall 2x/day (but really needing a third dose too late to give it to her) to 36mg Concerta 1x/day. That’s how our pediatrician explained it to us.

I just had a thought, they have generic Ritalin SR, do they have it yet for Concerta?

Well, the med in Concerta is methylphenidate HCl (a form of Ritalin), so it’s already a generic. The delivery system in the body is what is unique and what makes it so expensive. It’s called OROS and was developed by ALZA. It’s been used to deliver other medications for about 20 years, although it’s been enhanced for Concerta to give an intial "shot" of medication. I’m sure ALZA with hold on to the rights/patents for as long as they can. Here’s ALZA’s Concerta web site URL: http://www.concerta.net/index.htm Katswan

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I saw a company chart comparing 18 mg concerta with 5 mg Ritalin taken three times a day. My guess is that there is some loss due to the special delivery capsule, and that otherwise you can do very rough dosing estimates by comparing 18 mg concerta to 15 mg Ritalin spread out over a day.  This is only my guess, though; no one who understands about it has told me anything like this. That’s how our pediatrician explained it to us. I just had a thought, they have generic Ritalin SR, do they have it yet for Concerta?

No, it is brand new, less than one year old. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  Curious,            Norma        Norma   <Sigline space for rent

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just had a thought, they have generic Ritalin SR, do they have it yet for Concerta? <Christopher wrote No, it is brand new, less than one year old. (Curious again) How long does it take for a generic to be approved and shipping? I think only generics are approved for the type of insurance my daughter has, unless there is a good reason she has to take a brand name medication.

The patents have to expire first, and that takes a number of years. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –        Norma   <Sigline space for rent

Response:

Hello, I am going to my Doctor tomorrow, and he has expressed interest in trying Concerta. I have a question on this, however. I am an adult, 31 years old. I have been on 20mg (non-SR) Ritalin 3 times a day (60 mg total per day) for the past 5 years. Considering this, what dosage of Concerta should I be on? The 60 mg per day worked fine for me, but I dont see how that dose (per day) can be obtained from the size tablets being offered right now for Concerta (only 18mg or 36mg). I am at a total loss as to why there is no good indicators of what an adult should be taking for Concerta, if (s)he is coming from a regular release Ritalin dosage of 60mg per day? Taking 2 x 36mg. Concerta might be considered to be too high of a dose. There is a new 54mg coming out (I am wondering if it is out yet… possibly). But would this be enough for me? Also, I can find no literature that talks about how much (in mg) is released on the outside-coating ‘immediate release’ of Concerta tabs, and then, how much is released in each remaining layer (2 more layers), and at what time are they released? I went to Concerta.net, but cannot find any data that answers these questions. Can anyone provide some answers to these questions? Thanks. Chris

Response:

I am going to my Doctor tomorrow, and he has expressed interest in trying Concerta. I have a question on this, however. I am an adult, 31 years old. I have been on 20mg (non-CR) Ritalin 3 times a day (60 mg total per day) for the past 5 years. What dosage of Concerta should I be on? The 60 mg per day worked fine for me, but I dont see how that dose (per day) can be obtained from the size tablets being offered right now for Concerta (18 or 36mg).

From what our pediatrician told us about the conversion from Ritalin to Concerta, you would need 2 36mg caplets in the morning to receive the equivalent of your current 60mg/day of Ritalin.  (18mg Concerta = 15mg {3 5mg doses} Ritalin) I am at a total loss as to why there is no good indicators of what an adult should be taking for Concerta, if (s)he is coming from a regular release Ritalin dosage of 60mg per day? Taking 2 36mg. Concerta might be considered to be too high of a dose. There is a new 54mg coming out (maybe out now, possibly). But would this be enough?

With the conversion above, I don’t see how 2 36mg would be considered too high.  It’s an equivalent dosage to what you are currently taking. Also, I can find no literature that talks about how much (in mg) is released on the outside coating immediate release of Concerta tabs, and then, how much is released in each remaining layer (2 more layers), and at what time are they released? I went to Concerta.net, but cannot find any of this data. Can anyone provide some info on this?

I’ve a pdf on Concerta.  I’m not sure if it has the info you’re looking for, but if you’d like me to email it to you, let me know. — Light, Love, & Laughter, Kitten, Goddess of Mischief "Thousands of years ago, cats were worshipped as gods. Cats have never forgotten this." – Anonymous "Just for today, do not worry;  Just for today, do not anger; Earn your living honestly; Honor your parents, teachers and elders; Show gratitude for every living thing."- Dr. Mikao Usui

Response:

I just had a thought, they have generic Ritalin SR, do they have it yet for Concerta?

<Christopher wrote No, it is brand new, less than one year old.

(Curious again) How long does it take for a generic to be approved and shipping? I think only generics are approved for the type of insurance my daughter has, unless there is a good reason she has to take a brand name medication.        Norma   <Sigline space for rent

Response:

I am going to my Doctor tomorrow, and he has expressed interest in trying Concerta. I have a question on this, however. I am an adult, 31 years old. I have been on 20mg (non-CR) Ritalin 3 times a day (60 mg total per day) for the past 5 years. What dosage of Concerta should I be on? The 60 mg per day worked fine for me, but I dont see how that dose (per day) can be obtained from the size tablets being offered right now for Concerta (18 or 36mg). I am at a total loss as to why there is no good indicators of what an adult should be taking for Concerta, if (s)he is coming from a regular release Ritalin dosage of 60mg per day? Taking 2 36mg. Concerta might be considered to be too high of a dose. There is a new 54mg coming out (maybe out now, possibly). But would this be enough? Also, I can find no literature that talks about how much (in mg) is released on the outside coating immediate release of Concerta tabs, and then, how much is released in each remaining layer (2 more layers), and at what time are they released? I went to Concerta.net, but cannot find any of this data. Can anyone provide some info on this? Thanks. Chris

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just had a thought, they have generic Ritalin SR, do they have it yet for Concerta? Well, the med in Concerta is methylphenidate HCl (a form of Ritalin), so it’s already a generic. The delivery system in the body is what is unique and what makes it so expensive. It’s called OROS and was developed by ALZA. It’s been used to deliver other medications for about 20 years, although it’s been enhanced for Concerta to give an intial "shot" of medication. I’m sure ALZA with hold on to the rights/patents for as long as they can. Here’s ALZA’s Concerta web site URL: http://www.concerta.net/index.htm Katswan

Thanks for the info.        Norma   <Sigline space for rent

Response:

Anyone know of a free online PDR reference for Concerta and Adderall? We are at 56 mg/day on a 14yr old and wonder if we have the option of increasing or possibly we may end up going back to the Adderall and try to figure out a better way of managing its level

Response:

Anyone know of a free online PDR reference for Concerta and Adderall? We are at 56 mg/day on a 14yr old and wonder if we have the option of increasing or possibly we may end up going back to the Adderall and try to figure out a better way of managing its level

Have you talked to her doctor?   Nessa — Life’s a dance. You learn as you go. Sometimes you lead, sometimes you follow Don’t worry ’bout what you don’t know, life’s a dance you learn as you go!

Response:

Anyone know of a free online PDR reference for Concerta and Adderall? We are at 56 mg/day on a 14yr old and wonder if we have the option of increasing or possibly we may end up going back to the Adderall and try to figure out a better way of managing its level

As a medic, I would recommend talking to her Dr first. PDR’s should be available at most libraries. While my USP DI is a bit old (1996, they ain’t cheap), the usual pediatric dose for 6 years of age and older for Adderall, states that the dose does not usually exceed 40 mg daily. Concerta is not listed, as it is newer than my book. The dosage info for Adderal is backed by the PDR info at: http://www.healthsquare.com/drugmain.htm You should also be able to find the info on Concerta there. Chewy — Kitten’s Main Squeeze We live in a technological society that creates many illusions of reality…it’s the most irresponsible behaving entity that ever lived on this planet.  This civilization is not about responsibility, it’s about guilt, sin, blame and aggressive bad behavior.  That is the shadow world… The real world is about fulfilling our responsibility to life. — John Trudell

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anyone know of a free online PDR reference for Concerta and Adderall? We are at 56 mg/day on a 14yr old and wonder if we have the option of increasing or possibly we may end up going back to the Adderall and try to figure out a better way of managing its level As a medic, I would recommend talking to her Dr first. PDR’s should be available at most libraries. While my USP DI is a bit old (1996, they ain’t cheap), the usual pediatric dose for 6 years of age and older for Adderall, states that the dose does not usually exceed 40 mg daily. Concerta is not listed, as it is newer than my book.

I saw a company chart comparing 18 mg concerta with 5 mg Ritalin taken three times a day. My guess is that there is some loss due to the special delivery capsule, and that otherwise you can do very rough dosing estimates by comparing 18 mg concerta to 15 mg Ritalin spread out over a day.  This is only my guess, though; no one who understands about it has told me anything like this. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The dosage info for Adderal is backed by the PDR info at: http://www.healthsquare.com/drugmain.htm You should also be able to find the info on Concerta there. Chewy — Kitten’s Main Squeeze We live in a technological society that creates many illusions of reality…it’s the most irresponsible behaving entity that ever lived on this planet.  This civilization is not about responsibility, it’s about guilt, sin, blame and aggressive bad behavior.  That is the shadow world… The real world is about fulfilling our responsibility to life. — John Trudell

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Question:

Have you?  I mean, tried a tablespoon or 18 grams a day of inositol for anxiety (not bi-polar or depression).  Does it work?  Will less than 18g work?  The studies seem a bit dated and aren’t very plentiful. Figaro Yes. It works for me. Albeit, my panic attacks came on in middle age. The GP said I was a "classic case" I found it funny as I wasn’t anxious only uncomfortable.

Do you mean that yoou weren’t conscious of having anxiety, even outside of panic attacks?  That opens the question as to whether inositol would help people with GAD, or only PD, OCD and/or depression. I won’t expect a lot of studies. Myo-inositol is unpatentable; therefore, it can’t be a cash cow for some giant drug company.

Yes, I understand your point.  Our drug development system relies too much on capitalistic greed <g.  Still, most of the studies seemed to originate from Ben Gurion U and I didn’t see anything particularly recent.  Some of the European countries are more active in exploring non-pharmaceutical/herbal/dietary supplement types of treatments.  Would be nice to see something from one of those countries, Germany in particular. It works by restoring serotonin sensitivity in part though according to the following abstract this is not the complete story. PMID 11853115  Used to Tx OCD     date 2002

I couldn’t see anything in the abstract that speculated/concluded anything about "restoring serotonin sensitivity".  Do you have any other references I can check? Did that help?

Don’t know yet.  But it’s worth looking into somemore.  Thanks for the info. Figaro

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Have you?  I mean, tried a tablespoon or 18 grams a day of inositol for anxiety (not bi-polar or depression).  Does it work?  Will less than 18g work?  The studies seem a bit dated and aren’t very plentiful. Figaro Yes. It works for me. Albeit, my panic attacks came on in middle age. The GP said I was a "classic case" I found it funny as I wasn’t anxious only uncomfortable. Do you mean that you weren’t conscious of having anxiety, even outside of panic attacks?

Yes. That opens the question as to whether inositol would help people with GAD, or only PD, OCD and/or depression.

It may "only" be the latter. I’d sure try it for the former, if I could if I had the problem. I recall it having effects similar to a SSRI drug per what I’ve read. It also helps with binge eating and bulimia nervosa per our Israeli friends. I won’t expect a lot of studies. Myo-inositol is unpatentable; therefore, it can’t be a cash cow for some giant drug company. Yes, I understand your point.  Our drug development system relies too much on capitalistic greed <g.  Still, most of the studies seemed to originate from Ben Gurion U and I didn’t see anything particularly recent.  Some of the European countries are more active in exploring non-pharmaceutical/herbal/dietary supplement types of treatments.  Would be nice to see something from one of those countries, Germany in particular.

Given that it works for me, I’ll trust Ben Gurion University. The date of their work matches my definition of recent. There is some relatively recent work using a metabolite of myo-inositol called D-chiro-inositol that may "decrease insulin resistance and act to at least partially restore insulin sensitivity and glucose disposal." This is American research on diabetic rats, rhesus monkeys, and homo sapiens. PMID 11900279 I think this finding is suggestive. Anyway, it suggests the supra-nutritional levels of inositol has other applications. But here again this related compound seems to be enhancing the action of a receptor; albeit, not in the nervous system. It works by restoring serotonin sensitivity in part though according to the following abstract this is not the complete story. PMID 11853115  Used to Tx OCD     date 2002 I couldn’t see anything in the abstract that speculated/concluded anything about "restoring serotonin sensitivity".  Do you have any other references I can check?

I see that the abstract entitled in my computer as "mechanism" does not quite say that it "restores serotonin sensitivity". Still that is how I understand it. see PMID 11853115 This paper indicates that its actions are "downstream" of the receptor. It is entitled, "Defining the neuromolecular action of myo-inositol: application to OCD." by Harvey BH, Brink CB, Seedat S, Stein DJ. The paper is originates in South Africa and is a discussion of mechanism. Myo-inositol action is to increase the "message" resulting from the binding serotonin to its receptor, matches my definition for restoring serotonin sensitivity. Did that help? Don’t know yet.  But it’s worth looking into somemore.  Thanks for the info. Figaro

Fair enough.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Did you ever try a tablespoonful of inositol powder per day? Do a PUBMED search if you don’t believe me. Use search words "inositol", "panic", and "anxiety", Might help with the anxiety, however, inositol is a 2nd messenger (precursor) in cellular transmission.  Over excitation of this transmission process is primarily the most accepted theory of bipolar mania.  Lithium is thought to deplete the secondary messengers. Lithium is used in the treatment of bipolar.  Hummh? Anxiety or Mania? MP A valid point. I seem to recall posting a similar caveat some years ago somewhere on the Usenet. But just to keep it interesting, there is early experimental evidence that inositol supplementation may have role in "drug resistant" bipolar patients.  Here is a quote from an article off of www.medscape.com that reports a recent medical conference. " Andrew Nierenberg, MD, (15) of the Dept of Psycahiatry at Massachusetts General Hospital, reported a small 6-week placebo-controlled study using inositol, a natural substance involved in the phosphoinositide (PI) cycle. The PI cycle has long been implicated in the pathophysiology of BPAD and the mechanism of action of lithium. Inositol or matching placebo was given to 16 subjects with bipolar depression resistant to several weeks of treatment with therapeutic levels of litium or valproate. Although mania rating scales did not change significantly in either group, 33% of the inositol group met criteria for response vs none of the placebo group. Of interest, inositol is being evaluated in a randomized placebo-controlled fashoin in the STEP-BD study, so larger scale data on this interesting option are forthcoming." STEP-BD study  = Systematic Treatment Enhancement Program for BPAD BPAD  = Bipolar affective disorder BP =  Bipolar disorder William A. Noyes Very interesting research.  I will definitely review the article(s) that hopefully will be published from this research.  My curiousity is what happens to persons who are otherwise normal who would take inositol as a supplement.  Haven’t taken the time to review any research on inositol as an adjunt or treatment.  Just am familiar with the mechanisms of it and its possible role in mania. MP

In normals person, it will have no effect on mental function, consciousness, etc. It also is said to have antioxidant and antigylcating properties.

Response:

Did you ever try a tablespoonful of inositol powder per day? Do a PUBMED search if you don’t believe me. Use search words "inositol", "panic", and "anxiety", Have you?  I mean, tried a tablespoon or 18 grams a day of inositol for anxiety (not bi-polar or depression).  Does it work?  Will less than 18g work?  The studies seem a bit dated and aren’t very plentiful. Figaro

Yes. It works for me. Albeit, my panic attacks came on in middle age. The GP said I was a "classic case" I found it funny as I wasn’t anxious only uncomfortable. I felt as if short of breath but not, the pulse rate was elevated, and had a desire for cool outdoor air. So I found myself sitting out on the porch in the middle of the night. I was fortunate as I knew what was going on from the start …….even before I talked to GP. He said it was all in my head. Gee thanks…I thought. No help there.  Fortunately, I had heard of inositol And yes, a lower dose of a heaping teaspoonful  (6 grams ?) serves as an effective maintenance dose for me. But doses at the 1 or 2 gram levels don’t help. I won’t expect a lot of studies. Myo-inositol is unpatentable; therefore, it can’t be a cash cow for some giant drug company. It works by restoring serotonin sensitivity in part though according to the following abstract this is not the complete story. PMID 11853115  Used to Tx OCD     date 2002 Inositol has antioxidant and antiglycating properties. And seems to have anticancer properties by way of boosting natural killer T-lymphocytes. Inositol up because it works for me, because it is vastly safer than the meds. I am not saying it will work for everyone but it seems like it should a first line Tx for panic attacks and OCD. It use in pregnant women is controversial as it is alleged to tend to induce uterine contractions. PMID 9855568 — Review of Uses — not a mainstream journal Still this part of the population would seem also to a target of inositol supplementation as it be used to prevent some neural tube defects in neonates. PMID 12542915 —  date 2003 I’ve taken inositol for some years, now. Off and on at the start. Now regularly at the lower dose. I haven’t had a full-blown panic attack since the late 90’s. I bump the dose up, if I feel like one is possible. Did that help? YMMV .

Response:

Did you ever try a tablespoonful of inositol powder per day? Do a PUBMED search if you don’t believe me. Use search words "inositol", "panic", and "anxiety",

Have you?  I mean, tried a tablespoon or 18 grams a day of inositol for anxiety (not bi-polar or depression).  Does it work?  Will less than 18g work?  The studies seem a bit dated and aren’t very plentiful. Figaro

Response:

Did you ever try a tablespoonful of inositol powder per day? Do a PUBMED search if you don’t believe me. Use search words "inositol", "panic", and "anxiety", Might help with the anxiety, however, inositol is a 2nd messenger (precursor) in cellular transmission.  Over excitation of this transmission process is primarily the most accepted theory of bipolar mania.  Lithium is thought to deplete the secondary messengers. Lithium is used in the treatment of bipolar.  Hummh? Anxiety or Mania? MP

A valid point. I seem to recall posting a similar caveat some years ago somewhere on the Usenet. But just to keep it interesting, there is early experimental evidence that inositol supplementation may have role in "drug resistant" bipolar patients.  Here is a quote from an article off of www.medscape.com that reports a recent medical conference. " Andrew Nierenberg, MD, (15) of the Dept of Psycahiatry at Massachusetts General Hospital, reported a small 6-week placebo-controlled study using inositol, a natural substance involved in the phosphoinositide (PI) cycle. The PI cycle has long been implicated in the pathophysiology of BPAD and the mechanism of action of lithium. Inositol or matching placebo was given to 16 subjects with bipolar depression resistant to several weeks of treatment with therapeutic levels of litium or valproate. Although mania rating scales did not change significantly in either group, 33% of the inositol group met criteria for response vs none of the placebo group. Of interest, inositol is being evaluated in a randomized placebo-controlled fashoin in the STEP-BD study, so larger scale data on this interesting option are forthcoming." STEP-BD study  = Systematic Treatment Enhancement Program for BPAD BPAD  = Bipolar affective disorder BP =  Bipolar disorder William A. Noyes

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Did you ever try a tablespoonful of inositol powder per day? Do a PUBMED search if you don’t believe me. Use search words "inositol", "panic", and "anxiety", Might help with the anxiety, however, inositol is a 2nd messenger (precursor) in cellular transmission.  Over excitation of this transmission process is primarily the most accepted theory of bipolar mania.  Lithium is thought to deplete the secondary messengers. Lithium is used in the treatment of bipolar.  Hummh? Anxiety or Mania? MP A valid point. I seem to recall posting a similar caveat some years ago somewhere on the Usenet. But just to keep it interesting, there is early experimental evidence that inositol supplementation may have role in "drug resistant" bipolar patients.  Here is a quote from an article off of www.medscape.com that reports a recent medical conference. " Andrew Nierenberg, MD, (15) of the Dept of Psycahiatry at Massachusetts General Hospital, reported a small 6-week placebo-controlled study using inositol, a natural substance involved in the phosphoinositide (PI) cycle. The PI cycle has long been implicated in the pathophysiology of BPAD and the mechanism of action of lithium. Inositol or matching placebo was given to 16 subjects with bipolar depression resistant to several weeks of treatment with therapeutic levels of litium or valproate. Although mania rating scales did not change significantly in either group, 33% of the inositol group met criteria for response vs none of the placebo group. Of interest, inositol is being evaluated in a randomized placebo-controlled fashoin in the STEP-BD study, so larger scale data on this interesting option are forthcoming." STEP-BD study  = Systematic Treatment Enhancement Program for BPAD BPAD  = Bipolar affective disorder BP =  Bipolar disorder William A. Noyes

Very interesting research.  I will definitely review the article(s) that hopefully will be published from this research.  My curiousity is what happens to persons who are otherwise normal who would take inositol as a supplement.  Haven’t taken the time to review any research on inositol as an adjunt or treatment.  Just am familiar with the mechanisms of it and its possible role in mania. MP

Response:

Did you ever try a tablespoonful of inositol powder per day? Do a PUBMED search if you don’t believe me. Use search words "inositol", "panic", and "anxiety",

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello everyone, I posted here a few weeks ago about being prescribed seroquel for GAD/panic.  I really appreciated the feedback, and I don’t want to go on that med. I was on rivotril for years and years, until I started to have some memory problems.  After discussion with my P, I weaned myself off.  I have been med-free for three months, but I really can’t live this way…despite using the CBT techniques as best I can.  SO, my shrink first prescribed celexa….and I HATED it.   So that was where the seroquel came in next. I will be seeing my P next week, and I wanted to have some suggestions for other options.  I am really not interested in SSRI’s, although I know they are the first line.  I HATE their sexual side effects, the feeling I am emotionally flat, and bodily electrified.  So I would like to find something else.  What about buspirone?  What about remeron?  If not these drugs, any other suggestions? Thanks loads! Ron

Response:

Did you ever try a tablespoonful of inositol powder per day? Do a PUBMED search if you don’t believe me. Use search words "inositol", "panic", and "anxiety",

Might help with the anxiety, however, inositol is a 2nd messenger (precursor) in cellular transmission.  Over excitation of this transmission process is primarily the most accepted theory of bipolar mania.  Lithium is thought to deplete the secondary messengers. Lithium is used in the treatment of bipolar.  Hummh? Anxiety or Mania? MP

Response:

Hello everyone, I posted here a few weeks ago about being prescribed seroquel for GAD/panic.  I really appreciated the feedback, and I don’t want to go on that med. I was on rivotril for years and years, until I started to have some memory problems.  After discussion with my P, I weaned myself off.  I have been med-free for three months, but I really can’t live this way…despite using the CBT techniques as best I can.  SO, my shrink first prescribed celexa….and I HATED it.   So that was where the seroquel came in next. I will be seeing my P next week, and I wanted to have some suggestions for other options.  I am really not interested in SSRI’s, although I know they are the first line.  I HATE their sexual side effects, the feeling I am emotionally flat, and bodily electrified.  So I would like to find something else.  What about buspirone?  What about remeron?  If not these drugs, any other suggestions? Thanks loads! Ron

Response:

They say Zoloft helps anxiety, I take it more for depression, but I think it’s helped for both, how about that?  What really really helps me is Xanax. I would not have gotten as far as I have with anxiety relief without it.  I also take BuSpar, but I don’t know how well it works… I’m not sure if it is that that is helping, or the Zoloft, so…I don’t know. Good Luck, Robin

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello everyone, I posted here a few weeks ago about being prescribed seroquel for GAD/panic.  I really appreciated the feedback, and I don’t want to go on that med. I was on rivotril for years and years, until I started to have some memory problems.  After discussion with my P, I weaned myself off.  I have been med-free for three months, but I really can’t live this way…despite using the CBT techniques as best I can.  SO, my shrink first prescribed celexa….and I HATED it.   So that was where the seroquel came in next. I will be seeing my P next week, and I wanted to have some suggestions for other options.  I am really not interested in SSRI’s, although I know they are the first line.  I HATE their sexual side effects, the feeling I am emotionally flat, and bodily electrified.  So I would like to find something else.  What about buspirone?  What about remeron?  If not these drugs, any other suggestions? Thanks loads! Ron

Response:

4ax.com:  What about remeron?  If not these drugs, any other suggestions?

I’m taking remeron (aka avanza in Australia), and apparently its meant to be a good all round drug for depression and anxiety. BUT, in my experience while it has lifted my depression, it hasn’t done much for my anxiety – though now I’m on valium to help manage that. On the upside, it helps with sleeping (becareful with your first couple of doses, as it will knock you flat on your back..with my first dose, I slept for 14 + hours, and that was half a tablet heh). It doesn’t have the sexual side effects of SSRI’s. I don’t know if it is just me, but it seemed to work alot quicker than the SSRI’s I’ve been on (Ciprimil, Luvox, Prozac and Zoloft). I also don’t have the depersonalisation that I experienced while on SSRI’s. On the downside, it will probably make you put on weight (I put on about 5- 10kgs, but I’ve read reports of alot higher weight gains), Until your body gets used to it, you’ll probably sleep alot . And, because its eliminated from the body relatively quickly, if you skip one dose, you might start to feel some withdrawal effects. Of course, this is just my experience with it, and you might respond completely differently.

Response:

What about buspirone?  What about remeron?  If not these drugs, any other suggestions?

When you are making selections on what medication to choose, there are a few things that you should take into consideration.  Symptoms, age, past treatment response, family history of response, side effects, and drug interactions to name a few.  If anyone in your family, maybe a father or mother has taken medication for a similar condition, it may just as well work for you.  If you are older (elderly), you may want to avoid the tricyclic’s (TCA’s) due to their side effect profile.  It sounds like you’re main concern is regarding side effects, so I will list some other medications and their possible side effects for you. You mentioned you didn’t want to take SSRI’s, which are 1st line in the long term therapy of GAD, but there are others. Alternatives: Some nonpharmacologic modalities include avoiding caffeine, stimulants, diet pills, and getting plenty of execise (these choices are "on top of"). Benzodiazepines (BZD’s) are the most effective and safe med’s used to treat acute anxiety symptoms in GAD.  The dose is individualized, and duration of therapy usually should not exceed 4-6 months, but some patients require longer treatment.  They are usually used in addition to other medications if needed to treat anxiety. Bupropion (Wellbutrin) is a dopamine/norepi reuptake inhibitor, has a low drug interaction profile, is more activating, and has LESS SEXUAL side effects than others.  It may however potentiate the anxiety symptoms, but that is usually dose dependent. It is not indicated for GAD, but it should help with any depression, however it will not do anything for the anxiety.  A concomitant BZD may help to treat the anxiety. Venlafaxine (Effexor) is a dual serotonin/norepi reuptake inhibitor. It has a low drug interaction profile.  It does have the potential to mild or moderately increase HR/blood pressure at higher doses (225 mg/d) which is attributable to its norepi reuptake inhibition. Mirtazapine (Remeron) can be sedating at low doses (has histamine activity) but at higher doses it can over-ride that effect.  It is good for patients that exhibit anxiety and depression, but it does have the potential for more weight gain than others.  It may be advantagous to patients who can tolerate its sedative effects and who do not respond well to SSRIs or cannot tolerate the sexual or other adverse effects of the other AD’s. Busiprirone has efficacy equal to BZD’s, but lack the muscle relaxant, sedative-hypnotic, motor impairment, and dependence properties.  It should help with the anxiety.  The anxiolytic effects may take more than a week to become established, which make it suitable for generalized anxiety states.  It is not very effective in panic disorders.  It is generally reserved for patients who are nonresponsive to other medications. Tricyclics can be used also.  They have equivalent efficacy to the SSRI’s.  However, the most significant advantage of SSRIs over TCAs is a more favorable side effect profile.  There is a dose related sedative effect, they can have a "quinidine-like" effect in that they can cause hypotension (low blood pressure), and anticholinergic effects (dry mouth, difficulty urinating, blurred vision).  The secondary amines have less sedating effects such as desipramine and nortriptyline. Atypical antidepressants such as trazodone or nefazodone (Serzone) can be used.  Nefazodone has LESS SEXUAL side effects than SSRIs.  IMHO, nefazodone may want to be avoided due to its "black box warning." These both can cause some sedation (nefazodone less than trazodone) and they do have a bad drug interaction profile (nefazodone-inhibition of CYP 3A4). In the treatment of mixed anxiety and depression, this is the relative ranking of drugs healthcare professionals use when making a choice (depends on doc and part of the world you come from): 1) SSRI’s 2) Venlafaxine (Effexor)- need to monitor for blood pressure 3) Nortriptyline (Pamelor)- monitor for ECG changes and hypotension 4) Nefazadone (Serzone)- monitor for drug interactions and hypotension 5) Mirtazapine (Remeron)- monitor for weight gain and hypo/hypertension These suggestions are based on treatments used here in the states and may be different elsewhere.  Hope this information helps. MP PharmD 2006

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Question:

I read an article about people taking Zyban (a quit smoking drug) to treat depression and panic. Anyone ever try it?

Response:

Zyban, which is sold to help people quit smoking, is actually the same drug as Wellbutrin, which is used to treat depression.  Wellbutrin SR (slow release) is now available.  But Wellbutrin *can* cause jitteriness, so it is not often prescribed as a first-course anti-depressant for someone with anxiety.  However, after using the SSRI’s for years and finally getting tired of the sexual side effects, I began using Wellbutrin SR over a year ago.  I have had no heightened sense of anxiety.  Your Mileage May Vary….. I also take Xanax 0.5mg three times a day.   It is more likely that a psychiatrist would prescribe one of the SSRI drugs (Prozac, Effexor, Celexa, among others) before prescribing Wellbutrin to treat someone with a combo of depresison *and* anxiety attacks. When I began taking Prozac, it was as if my world change completely… I became more self-confident, and I was able to confront some of my long-held fears.  I too, Prozac for about 10 years before converting to the Wellbutrin. Best wishes! MikeH

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I read an article about people taking Zyban (a quit smoking drug) to treat depression and panic. Anyone ever try it?

Response:

Question:

Wish i could give you answers….don’t have them.  Just keep fighting, scream when you can’t stand it and request a shoulder when you want one.

Thanks, feel much less down over it today, I guess most people on this newsgroup must have found it impossible to explain to nonmigrainers how they feel, its so nice to be able to speak to people who understand. Heres praying for a miracle (free) cure that will work for everyone. Liz

Response:

I got a look at paroxetine – it’s Paxil, one of the SSRI antidepressants. The others are Celexa/citralopram, Prozac/fluoxetine, Luvox/fluvoxamine, and Zoloft/sertraline. The amount of fatigue is least in Prozac and Luvox. Funny enough, Paxil generates the most yawning! But other side effects that, in you, might feel like fatigue, vary greatly among the five drugs. I really encourage you to get/buy the Drug Facts & Comparisons book. In my 2001 edition, the info you want is on pgs. 934 and 935. I’ve been on Prozac for 12 years, and for me, it doesn’t seem to cause a lot of noticeable fatigue. But with my sleep apnea, I might not be the best person to be measuring fatigue! Hope this helps! Ginnie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Couldn’t think of a better place to let off some steam and whine.  Just getting over a 3 day migraine, it tried to come back earlier today but went again quickly (that would have been 4 days). I’m taking 40mg of propranolol twice a day and 20mg of paroxetine (Seroxat/Paxil) once a day and 5mg of Maxalt as treatment (10mg and I pass out but I don’t get rebounds which I did with naramig).  I have a wierd form of migraine, the neurologist said that my lifelong appetite problems (didn’t get hungry, felt ill for lack of food, but not hungry, if I never hear are you anorexic again it won’t be too soon) and the balance problems and the migraines that go with it were due to an overall lack of serotonin.  All very well but his reason for that is that I shouldn’t have migraine symptoms for 2 months solid as soon as it gets hot in summer. I’m desperate now to find something that works without the side effects. Adding the paroxetine has stopped the balance problems, vertigo and difficulty judging horizontal distances too.  Means if I feel well enough to care about getting in the car, I’m fit to drive, I used to have to check to see if I could get down the stairs without holding, if I couldn’t I couldn’t drive, if I get car sick when I drive, I have to pull over and ditch the car.  Problem is that the paroxetine makes me extremely tired and if I exert myself one day I’m so tierd the next day I want to cry with exhaustion.  I get headaches with my migraines now, but their so much less unpleasant than the every other sense and my moods up the creek that I quite like them, and I don’t find myself banging my head against the wall because it helps now. If Ijust take the propranolol , well I reviewed my lab book and discovered that I’d been breaking health and safety regulations being in the lab about 1/3 of the time, little accidents, vertigo, mistery bruises from walking into things, nausea and bloating, constipation, diarrhea, mental confusion, anxiety and shear blind terror from feeling like I’m falling constantly. Won’t live like that again, wasn’t worth it.  Equally I’m having to change careers because I’ve been told I won’t get a good reference for lab work but I will for the nonlab based aspects. So any suggestions?  I can’t keep on with this little energy but I can’t stop the paroxetine without a suitable replacement. Thanks for listening Liz

Response:

Just want to tell you you’re not alone. Wish I knew what would give you some help w/o the paroxetine side effects, but I keep getting this benign vestibular thing that I’m not convinced is just inner ear architecture, and it’s no fun. I do hear you. The staircase test is a great idea! Thanks! You might hit a library or a pharmacist who has a copy of Drug Facts and Comparisons… mine’s on loan now, or I’d look it up for you. That book takes whole classes of similar drugs – like anticonvulsants, reviews them as a group, gives comparison charts for indications, labeled and off-label indications, relative activity, side effects, etc. It’s a great way to see your drug in comparison with the others like it, so you can possibly find a different one to try. That’s the book the docs and the pharmacists use, not just the PDA. You can buy it on amazon, for about $150

Question:

Hello all, I am an OCD sufferer for two+ decades and have had mixed benefits with non SSRI meds and behavioral therapy.  My question to all of you is what SSRI meds have you tried as I am considering them. What has worked for the OCD and depression and what side effects have you experienced? I understand that SSRIs work differently for each person but I am trying for a general consensus. Please include any commentary on Luvox(Fluvoxamine), Prozac (Fluvoxatine), Paxil(paroxetine), Celexa(citalopram), Zoloft(sertraline) and/or any I have missed Thank you very much for your response!  If you wish to respond personally please e-mail loafofspam@(remove-this)aol.com Brett

Response:

Zoloft – ok I’ll do this in a sorta survey form style to make it easier for you. dosage – optimum dosage when ocd was at worst – 75mg, now it has subsided – 25mg is enough. effects – great, really relieved anxiety and I managed to beat my rituals and a lot of my thoughts permanently whilst on it. side effects – grinding teeth, sleepiness, bad dreams, sweating, weight loss and loss of appetite – but they all faded within a few months. additional problems – coming off it was hard – tremors and stuff but I got there eventually…took a quite a few weeks. Overall I think it’s been a great med for me! ~Am~ xxx Gentility <loafofs…@aol.com

wrote in message

news:u07jjodequ7cd7@corp.supernews.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Hello all, I am an OCD sufferer for two+ decades and have had mixed benefits with non SSRI meds and behavioral therapy.  My question to all of you is what SSRI meds have you tried as I am considering them. What has worked for the OCD and depression and what side effects have you experienced? I understand that SSRIs work differently for each person but I am trying

for

a general consensus. Please include any commentary on Luvox(Fluvoxamine), Prozac (Fluvoxatine), Paxil(paroxetine), Celexa(citalopram), Zoloft(sertraline) and/or any I

have

missed Thank you very much for your response!  If you wish to respond personally please e-mail loafofspam@(remove-this)aol.com Brett

Response:

On Tue, 27 Nov 2001 12:34:15 -0500, "Gentility" <loafofs…@aol.com

wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Hello all, I am an OCD sufferer for two+ decades and have had mixed benefits with non SSRI meds and behavioral therapy.  My question to all of you is what SSRI meds have you tried as I am considering them. What has worked for the OCD and depression and what side effects have you experienced? I understand that SSRIs work differently for each person but I am trying for a general consensus. Please include any commentary on Luvox(Fluvoxamine), Prozac (Fluvoxatine), Paxil(paroxetine), Celexa(citalopram), Zoloft(sertraline) and/or any I have missed Thank you very much for your response!  If you wish to respond personally please e-mail loafofspam@(remove-this)aol.com Brett

I’ve been dealing with my OCD for 32 years with mixed results. It’s waxed and waned over the years. A year and a half ago my Dr. put me on Paxil and it has worked wonderfully, both on the OCD and on my anxiety and depression. I seem to be doing well on 20 mg, so no change in dosage is anticipated. The effects of Paxil on the OCD may be somewhat less than on the anxiety and depression, but it makes handling the OCD far easier without them. I had the usual side effects for a couple of weeks – fatigue, shakiness, feeling really spacy – which disappeared after a few weeks. Now I just have a bit of fatigue, but an acceptable level. When I went off it once I weaned off it with only some minor discomfort. I’m back on it now, and glad to be. Idj (back to lurking)

Response:

Hello… Paxil has worked wonders for me, although it has made me gain some weight steadily over a couple of years. But the only side effect I really notice is sexual disfunction (lack of interest, etc.). Luvox was horrible for me, I slept 18+ hours a day, felt horrible, etc. But everything is different for everyone. I’d also recommend anti-psychotics, such as Risperdal or Zyprexa. Both worked great for my obsessive thoughts. Shana shaynuh…@aol.com Visit the web site created for alt.support.ocd! http://members.aol.com/shaynuh512/page1.html I’m so sick of this roller coaster ride…I want my ticket back!!!

Response:

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Robert, dont reply to this sick troll because I have Steve blocked and whenever you reply to him remnants of his posts show up in my newsreader. Just ignore Steve Robert, Steve is a very mentally ill man who does not realize how mentally ill he is. He is one of these people whose got serious problems but is in denial about it. Its obvious that Steve has some problems. Im too burned out talking about this asshole to go into all the details. You know Steve has got some problems…and I know Steve has got some problems. However I do not think Steve realizes he has got some problems. Again, Im done conversing with Steve and I would encourage you and others to not converse with him either. Just ignore him, ostracize him…eventually he will leave. Eric . My courage for my father, my heart for my mother and my prick for a whore…French Foreign Legion saying. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FactsAndFallaciesOfDepression

I’ll give it a shot, Al, I hate to see the cheap shots against you plus I’m pro med, it keeps me sane. Remove the **** from my address for email replies…. —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Here we see a clear reason to ignore the advice of Eric.  He uses the yardstick of his personal experience, rather then the results of scientific research as a basis for advice to other people.  Eric might mean well, or he might want to induce hellish symptomology in others. It is hard to tell, but in any case the experiences of one person, no matter how well meaning are not a safe yardstick to use for ones own health. Linda Gore does the same damn thing but I don’t see you criticize her. The whole thing about SSRIs being "dangerous drugs" is total absolute bullshit. SSRIs are some of the safest drugs you can take, providing you are depressed to begin with and are not bipolar. Even though there is growing body of evidence which says otherwise, even though the SSRI’s were only tested from 6-8 weeks in clinical trials to determine safety while typically they are used for months or years in the real world, even though in trials where placebos were designed to mimic the side effects of SSRI’s were almost as ‘effective’ as SSRI’s themselves. Yeah, SSRI’s are good for some people, but they are mainly a phenomenon of marketing rather then efficacy. Eric My courage for my father, my heart for my mother and my prick for a whore…French Foreign Legion saying. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FactsAndFallaciesOfDepression Remove the **** from my address for email replies…. —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—– Hey Robert, dont reply to the trolls like Steve.

I guess Eric feels you need his help to surf safely, Robert!  Ive got him blocked, but when you reply to him his posts show up in my newsreader.

And how is this anyone’s concern, save Eric’s?   Steve is a very mentally ill troll, in denial of his delusional state. Yesterday my sister came over for Thanksgiving and I mentioned to her this troll guy who follows me around on Usenet harassing me. I told her I suspected he is mentally ill but in no treatment program for it. You see, my sister has a Bachelor of Science in psychology. She completed 36 hours in psychology and was in a social work masters degree program but dropped out cause she realized she didnt want to work in the mental health field. She knows a lot about psychology, talk therapy, etc.

So, according to Eric, his sister is totally unqualified to say anything http://groups.google.com/groups?q=group:alt.support.depression.medica… If a full psychologist is worthless, why does Eric cite the opinion of a person with just a BS in psychology? Anyway I had her read some of Steve’s nutcase posts. She was laughing at his posts and told me that Steve is clearly delusional, to the point he has paranoid delusions actually.

My word, a person you hold up to be a psychology expert is laughing at the suffering of someone who she is diagnosing as very ill?  What’s wrong with this picture?  Perhaps the only place this meeting took place was in Eric’s tortured and defective brain.  Are we to believe that a psychology expert, such as the person Eric holds up will after a few minutes study of internet posts make a serious diagnosis of a severe mental illness?  What’s wrong with this picture?  She told me his incessant belief that psychiatry is out to get us all is a paranoid delusion.

Please post the EXACT posts of mine which form the basis for this diagnosis, please Eric.  As well as his constant neverending insistence that forced ECT is still commonplace in the USA,

Eric denied the many posts I put up about this unusual, but by no means rare fact.  Please go back to my old posts this summer, or read www.ect.org.  along with his constant talking about lobotomies,

Which I mainly mention to defend Eric’s nemesis, Dr. Peter Breggin, or to point out how modified versions of the procedure are being performed at Harvard’s mental hospital, McLean.  "gamma ray" lobotomy machines and other nonsense that I have never even heard of in all my four years of being involved with psychiatry.

Here Eric seems to be implying that since he has been a mental patient for four years he is an authority on all aspects of psychiatry! Delusional thinking in MY opinion! http://www.ynhh.org/gammaknife/infophysician.html Here is an interesting quote from the Yale web site, listed above, on the Gamma Knife: Who can benefit from this treatment? Indications at present include:      * benign tumors such as meningiomas, acoustic neuromas, pituitary adenomas and craniopharyngiomas      * primary or recurrent malignant brain tumors such as astrocytomas or oligodendrogliomas      * solitary and multiple brain metastases      * head and neck tumors such as nasopharyngeal carcinomas and ocular melanomas      * arteriovenous malformations (AVMs)      * trigeminal neuralgia and cluster headaches      * intractable pain secondary to cancer      * movement disorders such as Parkinson’s disease and essential tremor investigational tool for certain forms of epilepsy and psychiatric Haven Gamma Knife Center will be evaluated by a team of specialists with extensive experience, including neurosurgeons, radiation oncologists and neuroradiologists. Candidates for the procedure are selected for treatment only after a thorough review of all prior records and imaging studies. <http://www.ynhh.org/gammaknife/graphics/top.gif She cited delusion after delusion with Steve, some of them paranoid delusions.

Do list this catalogue of mental illness, would you, Eric.  I am sure it will make interesting, and amusing reading! My sister told me Steve clearly needs to be in a psychotic disorders treatment program, possibly at a teaching hospital. His mood does not seem to be that low, thus his problem is most likely a psychotic condition…a disorder of perception she told me.

SO then not seeing things as Eric sees them is now defined as a mental illness?  Not surprising for a troubled fellow who evaluates the worth of a drug by the results he obtained during the use thereof, and bases suggestions to other people exclusively upon his limited experience. In other words, Steve’s a grade A nutcase Robert.

In other words, Eric is a liar who has one goal here:  Defense of his dysfunctional belief system based upon a defective brain, rather then taking ANY personal responsibility for his present state. I will grant that the production of propaganda, out of whole cloth, by Eric would have stood him in good stead with Himmler and other proponents of the ‘big lie’ technique. Come to your own conclusions.

Response:

I think I’m going to stay out of this one, drugs saved my sanity and my life, nuff said. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Here we see a clear reason to ignore the advice of Eric.  He uses the yardstick of his personal experience, rather then the results of scientific research as a basis for advice to other people.  Eric might mean well, or he might want to induce hellish symptomology in others. It is hard to tell, but in any case the experiences of one person, no matter how well meaning are not a safe yardstick to use for ones own health. Linda Gore does the same damn thing but I don’t see you criticize her. The whole thing about SSRIs being "dangerous drugs" is total absolute bullshit. SSRIs are some of the safest drugs you can take, providing you are depressed to begin with and are not bipolar. Even though there is growing body of evidence which says otherwise, even though the SSRI’s were only tested from 6-8 weeks in clinical trials to determine safety while typically they are used for months or years in the real world, even though in trials where placebos were designed to mimic the side effects of SSRI’s were almost as ‘effective’ as SSRI’s themselves. Yeah, SSRI’s are good for some people, but they are mainly a phenomenon of marketing rather then efficacy. Eric My courage for my father, my heart for my mother and my prick for a whore…French Foreign Legion saying. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FactsAndFallaciesOfDepression Remove the **** from my address for email replies…. —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—– Hey Robert, dont reply to the trolls like Steve. Ive got him blocked, but when you reply to him his posts show up in my newsreader.  Steve is a very mentally ill troll, in denial of his delusional state. Gee, Robert, sounds like Eric thinks you need his protection.  What do you think? Yesterday my sister came over for Thanksgiving and I mentioned to her this troll guy who follows me around on Usenet harassing me. I told her I suspected he is mentally ill but in no treatment program for it. You see, my sister has a Bachelor of Science in psychology. She completed 36 hours in psychology and was in a social work masters degree program but dropped out cause she realized she didnt want to work in the mental health field. She knows a lot about psychology, talk therapy, etc. However Eric has stated time and again that talk therapy is worthless. http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&rnum=22&selm=20010327104630.277… Anyway I had her read some of Steve’s nutcase posts. She was laughing at his posts and told me that Steve is clearly delusional, to the point he has paranoid delusions actually. So you sister shares your unique ability to diagnose over the internet, Eric?  Would you care to post the EXACT posts which your totally unqualified, to apply your own standards, sister has reached? She told me his incessant belief that psychiatry is out to get us all is a paranoid delusion. Please post any post which I wrote that would lead to such a conclusion, then please contrast it with a wonderful gem of your own, Eric, like this one:http://groups.google.com/groups?q=group:alt.support.depression.medica… As well as his constant neverending insistence that forced ECT is still commonplace in the USA, Evidence which I posted to the unusual, but by no means rare practice was ignored by Eric. along with his constant talking about lobotomies, I rarely mention lobotomies, usually to defend Dr. Peter Breggin, who, as Eric agrees, lead the movement to push lobotomy from the mainstream of psychiatric practice, and limit it to places such as Harvard Universities mental hospital, McLean Hospital. "gamma ray" lobotomy machines and other nonsense that I have never even heard of in all my four years of being involved with psychiatry. So by being a severely depressed mental patient Eric is by some mystical form of osmosis to learn of every aspect of psychiatry?  And he accuses me of thought disorders! http://193.132.197.83/ContentInternational.nsf?Open Pay special attention to the Parkinson’s section, please:http://www.nwhgammaknife.com/gamma/conditionsframes/frameset.html and from yale: http://www.ynhh.org/gammaknife/infophysician.html#who "In addition, the gamma knife is being used as an investigational tool for certain forms of epilepsy and psychiatric disease. Patients referred to the Yale-New Haven Gamma Knife Center will be evaluated by a team of specialists with extensive experience, including neurosurgeons, radiation oncologists and neuroradiologists. Candidates for the procedure are selected for treatment only after a thorough review of all prior records and imaging studies." Finding this information took me less then 5 minutes.  I am sure that Eric is an experienced web user who could duplicate my efforts in about the same amount of time. She cited delusion after delusion with Steve, some of them paranoid delusions. Do share with us the results of your sisters diagnosis, Eric.  Do tell us the many delusions from which I suffer. My sister told me Steve clearly needs to be in a psychotic disorders treatment program, possibly at a teaching hospital. His mood does not seem to be that low, thus his problem is most likely a psychotic condition…a disorder of perception she told me. In other words, Steve’s a grade A nutcase Robert. In other words, Robert, Eric is a liar who will even invent material from whole cloth to serve his ends, which to me seem to perpetuate the dysfunctional belief system he functions under, due to fear to face his inner demons. But thats just my opinion!

Remove the **** from my address for email replies…. —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Here we see a clear reason to ignore the advice of Eric.  He uses the yardstick of his personal experience, rather then the results of scientific research as a basis for advice to other people.  Eric might mean well, or he might want to induce hellish symptomology in others. It is hard to tell, but in any case the experiences of one person, no matter how well meaning are not a safe yardstick to use for ones own health. Linda Gore does the same damn thing but I don’t see you criticize her. The whole thing about SSRIs being "dangerous drugs" is total absolute bullshit. SSRIs are some of the safest drugs you can take, providing you are depressed to begin with and are not bipolar. Even though there is growing body of evidence which says otherwise, even though the SSRI’s were only tested from 6-8 weeks in clinical trials to determine safety while typically they are used for months or years in the real world, even though in trials where placebos were designed to mimic the side effects of SSRI’s were almost as ‘effective’ as SSRI’s themselves. Yeah, SSRI’s are good for some people, but they are mainly a phenomenon of marketing rather then efficacy. Eric My courage for my father, my heart for my mother and my prick for a whore…French Foreign Legion saying. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FactsAndFallaciesOfDepression Remove the **** from my address for email replies…. —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—– Hey Robert, dont reply to the trolls like Steve. Ive got him blocked, but when you reply to him his posts show up in my newsreader.  Steve is a very mentally ill troll, in denial of his delusional state.

Gee, Robert, sounds like Eric thinks you need his protection.  What do you think?  Yesterday my sister came over for Thanksgiving and I mentioned to her this troll guy who follows me around on Usenet harassing me. I told her I suspected he is mentally ill but in no treatment program for it. You see, my sister has a Bachelor of Science in psychology. She completed 36 hours in psychology and was in a social work masters degree program but dropped out cause she realized she didnt want to work in the mental health field. She knows a lot about psychology, talk therapy, etc.

However Eric has stated time and again that talk therapy is worthless. http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&rnum=22&selm=20010327104630.277… Anyway I had her read some of Steve’s nutcase posts. She was laughing at his posts and told me that Steve is clearly delusional, to the point he has paranoid delusions actually.

So you sister shares your unique ability to diagnose over the internet, Eric?  Would you care to post the EXACT posts which your totally unqualified, to apply your own standards, sister has reached?  She told me his incessant belief that psychiatry is out to get us all is a paranoid delusion.

Please post any post which I wrote that would lead to such a conclusion, then please contrast it with a wonderful gem of your own, Eric, like this one:http://groups.google.com/groups?q=group:alt.support.depression.medica… As well as his constant neverending insistence that forced ECT is still commonplace in the USA,

Evidence which I posted to the unusual, but by no means rare practice was ignored by Eric.  along with his constant talking about lobotomies,

I rarely mention lobotomies, usually to defend Dr. Peter Breggin, who, as Eric agrees, lead the movement to push lobotomy from the mainstream of psychiatric practice, and limit it to places such as Harvard Universities mental hospital, McLean Hospital.  "gamma ray" lobotomy machines and other nonsense that I have never even heard of in all my four years of being involved with psychiatry.

So by being a severely depressed mental patient Eric is by some mystical form of osmosis to learn of every aspect of psychiatry?  And he accuses me of thought disorders! http://193.132.197.83/ContentInternational.nsf?Open Pay special attention to the Parkinson’s section, please:http://www.nwhgammaknife.com/gamma/conditionsframes/frameset.html and from yale: http://www.ynhh.org/gammaknife/infophysician.html#who "In addition, the gamma knife is being used as an investigational tool for certain forms of epilepsy and psychiatric disease. Patients referred to the Yale-New Haven Gamma Knife Center will be evaluated by a team of specialists with extensive experience, including neurosurgeons, radiation oncologists and neuroradiologists. Candidates for the procedure are selected for treatment only after a thorough review of all prior records and imaging studies." Finding this information took me less then 5 minutes.  I am sure that Eric is an experienced web user who could duplicate my efforts in about the same amount of time. She cited delusion after delusion with Steve, some of them paranoid delusions.

Do share with us the results of your sisters diagnosis, Eric.  Do tell us the many delusions from which I suffer. My sister told me Steve clearly needs to be in a psychotic disorders treatment program, possibly at a teaching hospital. His mood does not seem to be that low, thus his problem is most likely a psychotic condition…a disorder of perception she told me. In other words, Steve’s a grade A nutcase Robert.

In other words, Robert, Eric is a liar who will even invent material from whole cloth to serve his ends, which to me seem to perpetuate the dysfunctional belief system he functions under, due to fear to face his inner demons. But thats just my opinion!

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Linda Gore does the same damn thing but I don’t see you criticize her. The reason I find Eric so dangerous is that he writes with such authority, and unless one is skeptical or has been around the bad, dangerous advice eric gives could hurt other people.  The fact that the basis for Eric to make a decision is solely HIS experience is another reason I comment when his posts are less then accurate. Naturally my writing is my own opinion, I am not a doctor.  Eric, on the other hand seems to believe that being a mental patient for four years gives him some special knowledge which I lack. I disagree, vigorously.

I think your not giving people enough credit, IMHO your persecution of one poster shines a bad light on you. Linda Gore gives statistics without a shred of evidence yet that seems to be ok because she is ant-med. Well the thing is she IMHO is the most fucked up poster here and I bet it’s cause she won’t seek treatment by those nasty meds that are so evil yet give me such solace. Remove the **** from my address for email replies…. —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I never had SSRIs incite "suicidal ideation" in me. I think this is bullshit. Its something that the anti-med people are capitalizing. Bipolar people sometimes become suicidal or agitated on SSRIs. Bipolars should not generally be on SSRIs without a mood stabilizer. Here we see a clear reason to ignore the advice of Eric.  He uses the yardstick of his personal experience, rather then the results of scientific research as a basis for advice to other people.  Eric might mean well, or he might want to induce hellish symptomology in others. It is hard to tell, but in any case the experiences of one person, no matter how well meaning are not a safe yardstick to use for ones own health. Linda Gore does the same damn thing but I don’t see you criticize her.

The reason I find Eric so dangerous is that he writes with such authority, and unless one is skeptical or has been around the bad, dangerous advice eric gives could hurt other people.  The fact that the basis for Eric to make a decision is solely HIS experience is another reason I comment when his posts are less then accurate. Naturally my writing is my own opinion, I am not a doctor.  Eric, on the other hand seems to believe that being a mental patient for four years gives him some special knowledge which I lack. I disagree, vigorously. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -The whole thing about SSRIs being "dangerous drugs" is total absolute bullshit. SSRIs are some of the safest drugs you can take, providing you are depressed to begin with and are not bipolar. Even though there is growing body of evidence which says otherwise, even though the SSRI’s were only tested from 6-8 weeks in clinical trials to determine safety while typically they are used for months or years in the real world, even though in trials where placebos were designed to mimic the side effects of SSRI’s were almost as ‘effective’ as SSRI’s themselves. Yeah, SSRI’s are good for some people, but they are mainly a phenomenon of marketing rather then efficacy. Eric My courage for my father, my heart for my mother and my prick for a whore…French Foreign Legion saying. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FactsAndFallaciesOfDepression Remove the **** from my address for email replies…. —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I never had SSRIs incite "suicidal ideation" in me. I think this is bullshit. Its something that the anti-med people are capitalizing. Bipolar people sometimes become suicidal or agitated on SSRIs. Bipolars should not generally be on SSRIs without a mood stabilizer. Here we see a clear reason to ignore the advice of Eric.  He uses the yardstick of his personal experience, rather then the results of scientific research as a basis for advice to other people.  Eric might mean well, or he might want to induce hellish symptomology in others. It is hard to tell, but in any case the experiences of one person, no matter how well meaning are not a safe yardstick to use for ones own health.

Linda Gore does the same damn thing but I don’t see you criticize her. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The whole thing about SSRIs being "dangerous drugs" is total absolute bullshit. SSRIs are some of the safest drugs you can take, providing you are depressed to begin with and are not bipolar. Even though there is growing body of evidence which says otherwise, even though the SSRI’s were only tested from 6-8 weeks in clinical trials to determine safety while typically they are used for months or years in the real world, even though in trials where placebos were designed to mimic the side effects of SSRI’s were almost as ‘effective’ as SSRI’s themselves. Yeah, SSRI’s are good for some people, but they are mainly a phenomenon of marketing rather then efficacy. Eric My courage for my father, my heart for my mother and my prick for a whore…French Foreign Legion saying. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FactsAndFallaciesOfDepression

Remove the **** from my address for email replies…. —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Hey Robert, dont reply to the trolls like Steve. Ive got him blocked, but when you reply to him his posts show up in my newsreader.  Steve is a very mentally ill troll, in denial of his delusional state. Yesterday my sister came over for Thanksgiving and I mentioned to her this troll guy who follows me around on Usenet harassing me. I told her I suspected he is mentally ill but in no treatment program for it. You see, my sister has a Bachelor of Science in psychology. She completed 36 hours in psychology and was in a social work masters degree program but dropped out cause she realized she didnt want to work in the mental health field. She knows a lot about psychology, talk therapy, etc. Anyway I had her read some of Steve’s nutcase posts. She was laughing at his posts and told me that Steve is clearly delusional, to the point he has paranoid delusions actually. She told me his incessant belief that psychiatry is out to get us all is a paranoid delusion. As well as his constant neverending insistence that forced ECT is still commonplace in the USA, along with his constant talking about lobotomies, "gamma ray" lobotomy machines and other nonsense that I have never even heard of in all my four years of being involved with psychiatry. She cited delusion after delusion with Steve, some of them paranoid delusions. My sister told me Steve clearly needs to be in a psychotic disorders treatment program, possibly at a teaching hospital. His mood does not seem to be that low, thus his problem is most likely a psychotic condition…a disorder of perception she told me. In other words, Steve’s a grade A nutcase Robert. Eric My courage for my father, my heart for my mother and my prick for a whore…French Foreign Legion saying. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FactsAndFallaciesOfDepression

Sorry Eric, I’ll try to remember not to quote him for you. I think he’s an alright guy but he does have an unusual fixation on you. Remove the **** from my address for email replies…. —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

You know I didnt tell the poster that to frighten him..but to reassure someone reporting suicidal ideations…others have experienced them….. .you guys have a funny way of supporting people…telling them the suicidal thoughts they are having are rare…  which to me be more worrisome than my suggesting its common starting up on SSRI’s so common 25% of subjects in the clinical trials for paxil had suicidal ideations incited ..BTW.. But wtf…tell people having them  their rare…if it makes you feel better…even if it does shit to reassure them..

Cite your sources. Remove the **** from my address for email replies…. —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ideation I`de*a"tion, n. The faculty or capacity of the mind for forming ideas; the exercise of this capacity; the act of the mind by which objects of sense are apprehended and retained as objects of thought. It’s as I thought. Yes, a thought…or idea…  which can prey upon your mind…BUT where its an ideation…only..its unaccompanied by the impulse…or desire to act upon the thought…me thinks.. Hope you feel better today…

Thank you, — ~misfit~

Response:

Hi misfit… the SSRI’s  like Prozac and Paxil..actually incite or activate suicidal ideations in some,   most especially when you just begin them or right after you stop taking them…

Cite your sources. Prozac incited the idea in me once…the second time I went on Prozac…and I spent one really terrified coping with such an idea.. after I gotten bad news in the middle of the night…about an uncle who had committed suicide.. and the suggestion  of it…would not leave me…

Runs in the family I see. I called a hotline…and the person who took my call ended up making me so angry…so I hung up..

Anger and getting along with people seam to be trouble for you Linda Gore. I think the thing really helped me…even while I couldnt get the ideas out of my mind…I still knew it was the  Prozac inciting the idea, and not my idea… ..

The fault my dear Brutus is not in our stars but in our selves…… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi all, just thought I’d introduce myself, been lurking a day or two. I suffer from chronic depression and have just started a course of Paxil (20mg day). I am 40 years old, male, and have always tended towards depression, my mother also suffers with it and has been on Prozac for years. I was on Prozac myself about two years ago but only for a couple of months, I had some side-effects that I didn’t like such as profuse sweating, anxiety, insomnia and lowered libido. I entered into a relationship just after that and life got better.  I’ve just (two weeks ago) been released from jail after serving six months for cultivation of cannabis. When I had about one month to go I got a letter from my fiancee saying she was leaving me. Turned out she had an affair with someone she met in a chat room (and I encouraged her to spend time on the net as she was missing me). I’ve been trying to get together with her agian but it’s no-go, she finally told me two days ago.  I have been having suicidal ideations (is that the right word?) to the extent that, yesterday evening I sorted out a length of hose, put it in the car and sat at my puter and wrote a note to leave on the passenger seat. I was just printing the note when a friend called around to visit and ask if he could stay the night on the couch. He has been worried about me. he is taking medication for various things and over the last two weeks I’ve been getting a little Oxezapam off him. I took 75mg last night and the urgency went away. We don’t talk about my feelings a hell of a lot, I have trouble with that face to face (and if/when I top myself I don’t want anyone panicing, trying to stop me). I have a good friend who I’ve never met in person who I have an email relationship with and she knows *exactly* how I feel. She has been very supportive.  This isn’t just one of those "My girlfriend left me and I want to kill myself" situations. My life basically sucks and I credit her (to myself) with keeping me alive these last two years. I’ve been sad and had suicidal t houghts ever since I was a teenager, and a lot more than most.  I honestly don’t feel I have a lot to live for but don’t really want to upset family etc. I’m gonna try to give it a go and have come to the conclusion that I’ll probably need to be medicated for the rest of my life, especially if I want it to be more than a few days. The doctor gave me some Oxezapam today as well as the Paxil, I told her I want something that works now, tonight. She would only give me a little though, 30 x 10 mg and told me only 3 per day.  Basically I s’pose I wondered if anyone has any suggestions for medication. I’m in New Zealand so I may not have the same medications available to me as people in other countries. So yeah, anyone have any ideas? If I’m gonna be in the same mood as I’ve been in for the last 40 years for the rest of my life then I’m not sure I want to go on. Thanks for reading this, — ~misfit~

Remove the **** from my address for email replies…. —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Don’t be too frightened.  While it’s true that SSRIs have incited suicidal ideation in some people, it should be stressed that this is not common.  It’s just something to watch out for and report immediately to your doctor if it happens to you; sort of like allergic reactions to penicillin.  SSRIs work pretty well for most people. S. suricata I never had SSRIs incite "suicidal ideation" in me. I think this is bullshit. Its something that the anti-med people are capitalizing. Bipolar people sometimes become suicidal or agitated on SSRIs. Bipolars should not generally be on SSRIs without a mood stabilizer.

Here we see a clear reason to ignore the advice of Eric.  He uses the yardstick of his personal experience, rather then the results of scientific research as a basis for advice to other people.  Eric might mean well, or he might want to induce hellish symptomology in others. It is hard to tell, but in any case the experiences of one person, no matter how well meaning are not a safe yardstick to use for ones own health. The whole thing about SSRIs being "dangerous drugs" is total absolute bullshit. SSRIs are some of the safest drugs you can take, providing you are depressed to begin with and are not bipolar.

Even though there is growing body of evidence which says otherwise, even though the SSRI’s were only tested from 6-8 weeks in clinical trials to determine safety while typically they are used for months or years in the real world, even though in trials where placebos were designed to mimic the side effects of SSRI’s were almost as ‘effective’ as SSRI’s themselves. Yeah, SSRI’s are good for some people, but they are mainly a phenomenon of marketing rather then efficacy. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Eric My courage for my father, my heart for my mother and my prick for a whore…French Foreign Legion saying. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FactsAndFallaciesOfDepression

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You know I didnt tell the poster that to frighten him..but to reassure someone reporting suicidal ideations…others have experienced them….. .you guys have a funny way of supporting people…telling them the suicidal thoughts they are having are rare…  which to me be more worrisome than my suggesting its common starting up on SSRI’s so common 25% of subjects in the clinical trials for paxil had suicidal ideations incited ..BTW.. But wtf…tell people having them  their rare…if it makes you feel better…even if it does shit to reassure them..  S’cool, like I said, nothing frightens me. And FWIW I agree, it’s better for people to know that it is a known side-effect than for them to solely attribute the feeling to themselves, that way they are less likely to act on it. IMO.

Glad you understood my intent… BTW, please excuse my ignorance but can someone give me a defimition of ‘ideations’ please. I’m sure I know what it means but I’d like to have it defined. LOL, S’okay, I just looked it up: ideation I`de*a"tion, n. The faculty or capacity of the mind for forming ideas; the exercise of this capacity; the act of the mind by which objects of sense are apprehended and retained as objects of thought. It’s as I thought.

Yes, a thought…or idea…  which can prey upon your mind…BUT where its an ideation…only..its unaccompanied by the impulse…or desire to act upon the thought…me thinks.. Hope you feel better today… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Cheers, — ~misfit~

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – the SSRI’s  like Prozac and Paxil..actually incite or activate suicidal ideations in some,   most especially when you just begin them or right after you stop taking them… Well, it’s possible that SSRI’s cause suicidal ideation in a very small number of people. However, since Misfit already has this problem it would be very hard to tell if they were a side effect or not. I got a different explanation from my pdoc, which accurately describes my experience though I don’t have a paper reference for it offhand. My pdoc said that often people are too depressed to act on suicidal ideation when they start antidepressants. I know I had the ideation, but no energy or will to act on it. Sometimes people get an energy lift from the medication before they get a mood lift, so after starting medication people become more able to actually act out the ideation. Again, this matches my experience. I had the ideation without the antidepressants, but as I started to get a little more energy I became a much more genuine suicide risk. Fortunately, I have been able to get through these parts without, yet, attempting to hurt myself. Bright blessings to you. Fiona

What you say your pdoc told you, Fiona, about AD’s is true of all of them.  People are too depressed to do much, and as the AD’s kick in they are able to muster the strength to act on their desires. The difference with SSRI’s, however, is that SSRI’s are noted to actually induce suicidal ideation where it was not present before.

Response:

You know I didnt tell the poster that to frighten him..but to reassure someone reporting suicidal ideations…others have experienced them….. .you guys have a funny way of supporting people…telling them the suicidal thoughts they are having are rare…  which to me be more worrisome than my suggesting its common starting up on SSRI’s so common 25% of subjects in the clinical trials for paxil had suicidal ideations incited ..BTW.. But wtf…tell people having them  their rare…if it makes you feel better…even if it does shit to reassure them..

 S’cool, like I said, nothing frightens me. And FWIW I agree, it’s better for people to know that it is a known side-effect than for them to solely attribute the feeling to themselves, that way they are less likely to act on it. IMO. BTW, please excuse my ignorance but can someone give me a defimition of ‘ideations’ please. I’m sure I know what it means but I’d like to have it defined. LOL, S’okay, I just looked it up: ideation I`de*a"tion, n. The faculty or capacity of the mind for forming ideas; the exercise of this capacity; the act of the mind by which objects of sense are apprehended and retained as objects of thought. It’s as I thought. Cheers, — ~misfit~

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – That’s something I didn’t know, that SSRI’s can incite suicidal ideations. Hell, I don’t need that, I had them before I started on Paxil. I’m only on my second day of Paxil and I feel a bit ‘fuzzy headed’ and a little queasy. I hope that these effects will go away, I feel shitty enough already. Don’t be too frightened.  While it’s true that SSRIs have incited suicidal ideation in some people, it should be stressed that this is not common.  It’s just something to watch out for and report immediately to your doctor if it happens to you; sort of like allergic reactions to penicillin.  SSRIs work pretty well for most people.

Thanks for that, I don’t actually have the enthusiasum to be frightened though. — ~misfit~

Response:

the SSRI’s  like Prozac and Paxil..actually incite or activate suicidal ideations in some,   most especially when you just begin them or right after you stop taking them…

Well, it’s possible that SSRI’s cause suicidal ideation in a very small number of people. However, since Misfit already has this problem it would be very hard to tell if they were a side effect or not. I got a different explanation from my pdoc, which accurately describes my experience though I don’t have a paper reference for it offhand. My pdoc said that often people are too depressed to act on suicidal ideation when they start antidepressants. I know I had the ideation, but no energy or will to act on it. Sometimes people get an energy lift from the medication before they get a mood lift, so after starting medication people become more able to actually act out the ideation. Again, this matches my experience. I had the ideation without the antidepressants, but as I started to get a little more energy I became a much more genuine suicide risk. Fortunately, I have been able to get through these parts without, yet, attempting to hurt myself. Bright blessings to you. Fiona — If we had no winter, the spring would not be so pleasant: if we did not sometimes taste the adversity, prosperity would not be so welcome.      – Anne Bradstreet, Meditations Divine and Moral, 1664

Response:

I never had SSRIs incite "suicidal ideation" in me. I think this is bullshit. Its something that the anti-med people are capitalizing. Bipolar people sometimes become suicidal or agitated on SSRIs. Bipolars should not generally be on SSRIs without a mood stabilizer. The whole thing about SSRIs being "dangerous drugs" is total absolute bullshit. SSRIs are some of the safest drugs you can take, providing you are depressed to begin with and are not bipolar.

I’m a drug enthusiast, myself, but I see a problem with this line of reasoning.  What you seem to be saying is that SSRIs are safe for us gloomies, but sometimes dangerous for the flip-flop folks.  This would be fine, except that psychiatrists are notoriously bad at diagnosis.  There are no established physical markers to distinguish unipolars from bipolars; not even on autopsy.  So, suppose you’re a bipolar, and you’ve just had your first plunge into the black depths of depression.  In a few months, you’re scheduled to get very happy indeed, but you don’t know that, and neither does the psychiatrist to whom you’ve just been referred.  As far as she’s concerned, you’re depressed, and you agree with her.  You get Prozac as the drug of first choice.  Since you’re actually bipolar, you’re in trouble because this isn’t the drug for you. Of course, if psychiatric diagnosis were infallible, SSRIs would be safe, but it isn’t, so the prudent approach would be to admit that SSRI prescriptions have their risks, no? S. suricata

Response:

That’s something I didn’t know, that SSRI’s can incite suicidal ideations. Hell, I don’t need that, I had them before I started on Paxil. I’m only on my second day of Paxil and I feel a bit ‘fuzzy headed’ and a little queasy. I hope that these effects will go away, I feel shitty enough already.

Don’t be too frightened.  While it’s true that SSRIs have incited suicidal ideation in some people, it should be stressed that this is not common.  It’s just something to watch out for and report immediately to your doctor if it happens to you; sort of like allergic reactions to penicillin.  SSRIs work pretty well for most people. S. suricata

Response:

Hi HerEvilTwin, Thanks for taking the time to reply.  That’s something I didn’t know, that SSRI’s can incite suicidal ideations. Hell, I don’t need that, I had them before I started on Paxil. I’m only on my second day of Paxil and I feel a bit ‘fuzzy headed’ and a little queasy. I hope that these effects will go away, I feel shitty enough already. Thanks again, — ~misfit~

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi misfit… the SSRI’s  like Prozac and Paxil..actually incite or activate suicidal ideations in some,   most especially when you just begin them or right after you stop taking them… Prozac incited the idea in me once…the second time I went on Prozac…and I spent one really terrified coping with such an idea.. after I gotten bad news in the middle of the night…about an uncle who had committed suicide.. and the suggestion  of it…would not leave me… I called a hotline…and the person who took my call ended up making me so angry…so I hung up.. I think the thing really helped me…even while I couldnt get the ideas out of my mind…I still knew it was the  Prozac inciting the idea, and not my idea…

Response:

Hi and Welcome to the ng,  Hi all, just thought I’d introduce myself, been lurking a day or two. I suffer from chronic depression and have just started a course of Paxil (20mg day). snipped… There are many ADs available. The Paxil will take about 3 weeks to work. I hope you feel better soon.

Hi Lynda, thanks for the welcome and the good wishes. — ~misfit~

Response:

 Hi all, just thought I’d introduce myself, been lurking a day or two. I suffer from chronic depression and have just started a course of Paxil (20mg day). I am 40 years old, male, and have always tended towards depression, my mother also suffers with it and has been on Prozac for years. I was on Prozac myself about two years ago but only for a couple of months, I had some side-effects that I didn’t like such as profuse sweating, anxiety, insomnia and lowered libido. I entered into a relationship just after that and life got better.  I’ve just (two weeks ago) been released from jail after serving six months for cultivation of cannabis. When I had about one month to go I got a letter from my fiancee saying she was leaving me. Turned out she had an affair with someone she met in a chat room (and I encouraged her to spend time on the net as she was missing me). I’ve been trying to get together with her agian but it’s no-go, she finally told me two days ago.  I have been having suicidal ideations (is that the right word?) to the extent that, yesterday evening I sorted out a length of hose, put it in the car and sat at my puter and wrote a note to leave on the passenger seat. I was just printing the note when a friend called around to visit and ask if he could stay the night on the couch. He has been worried about me. he is taking medication for various things and over the last two weeks I’ve been getting a little Oxezapam off him. I took 75mg last night and the urgency went away. We don’t talk about my feelings a hell of a lot, I have trouble with that face to face (and if/when I top myself I don’t want anyone panicing, trying to stop me). I have a good friend who I’ve never met in person who I have an email relationship with and she knows *exactly* how I feel. She has been very supportive.  This isn’t just one of those "My girlfriend left me and I want to kill myself" situations. My life basically sucks and I credit her (to myself) with keeping me alive these last two years. I’ve been sad and had suicidal t houghts ever since I was a teenager, and a lot more than most.  I honestly don’t feel I have a lot to live for but don’t really want to upset family etc. I’m gonna try to give it a go and have come to the conclusion that I’ll probably need to be medicated for the rest of my life, especially if I want it to be more than a few days. The doctor gave me some Oxezapam today as well as the Paxil, I told her I want something that works now, tonight. She would only give me a little though, 30 x 10 mg and told me only 3 per day.  Basically I s’pose I wondered if anyone has any suggestions for medication. I’m in New Zealand so I may not have the same medications available to me as people in other countries. So yeah, anyone have any ideas? If I’m gonna be in the same mood as I’ve been in for the last 40 years for the rest of my life then I’m not sure I want to go on. Thanks for reading this, — ~misfit~

Response:

Hi and Welcome to the ng,  Hi all, just thought I’d introduce myself, been lurking a day or two. I suffer from chronic depression and have just started a course of Paxil (20mg day).

snipped… There are many ADs available. The Paxil will take about 3 weeks to work. I hope you feel better soon. Peace, Lynda

Response:

Question:

I have never experienced any sedation or gotten any "buzz" from Xanax, in fact it actually energizes me without making me "speedy", if that makes sense.

It does make sense, and that happens for me at low doses as well. How much have you taken at a time? I am totally screwed up with sleep and energy due to the fact that I work full time night shift and then watch my highly hyperactive toddler all day until 4 or 5 when my eldest daughter comes home to help. So I am always tired and yet cannot fall asleep..frustrating!

You have my sympathies! I often have trouble falling asleep due to pain, and I have problems with waking up in the middle of the night. I’m convinced this has had a deleterious effect on my mental functioning. :-/ -elizabeth

Response:

I have never experienced any sedation or gotten any "buzz" from Xanax, in fact it actually energizes me without making me "speedy", if that makes sense. It does make sense, and that happens for me at low doses as well. How much have you taken at a time?

  In the middle of an extreme panic attack I have once or twice taken 3 mgs at a time..and have taken 2 mgs at once for slightly less severe but still awful ones..Now though I never take more than 1mg at a time, I dont need to with the other meds, in fact dont take any sometimes cause I just plain old forget. May -elizabeth

– "Believe me! The secret of reaping the greatest fruitfulness and the greatest enjoyment from life is to live dangerously!"      -                Nietzsche

Response:

Hi Diana,     If you have never seen a p-doc yet, who prescribed the meds? 25mg is a good starting dose for zoloft, this should keep the side affects bearable. Zoloft taken daily and xanax whenever needed has worked very well for me, but then again YMMV.  The p-doc you are going to see  should be very caring and understanding towards your feelings. One that could try to understand what it is like to feel the way we do. I know mine does. I wish you the best of luck and hope the zoloft works for you. Please keep us posted. steve

Response:

Hello everyone haven’t posted lately but i am back, I finally made a appt with a psych doc today, my appointment if for next tuesday this is the first time for me, alittle nervous, can anyone give me any suggestions on what to look for with her to make sure she is the right one for me?  been having PA for 9 years now and finally being medicated for it .05mg of xanax and 25mg of zoloft is that a good combo? Thanks, Diana

Response:

The med combo is pretty standard, however that Zoloft dose is probably too low for any therapeutic benefit…although with all of the SSRI’s you must increase the dose gradually…and you can anticipate some increase in symptoms while you are going on any meds.  SSRI’s are more popular these days than TCA’s  because they effect fewer systems (less side effects) and are more site specific.  Xanax is a standard med to be used as needed., usually in combo with another med… however, I’ve been doing a lot of reading about a rebound effect … something I experience always, so I stopped.  In terms of your shrink… a good dr. should educate you about the disorder in addition to writing scripts for meds. Find out what percentage of her practice is anxiety patients.  Also, check out the Anxiety Disorder Assoc. web site for more ideas on getting a good shrink: www.adaa.org  GOOD LUCK!!  Keep us posted on the outcome.

Response:

Steve, thanks for responding my family doc got me started on the meds and referred me to the psych doc.

Response:

Hello everyone haven’t posted lately but i am back, I finally made a appt with a psych doc today, my appointment if for next tuesday this is the first time for me, alittle nervous, can anyone give me any suggestions on what to look for with her to make sure she is the right one for me?  been having PA for 9 years now and finally being medicated for it .05mg of xanax and 25mg of zoloft is that a good combo?

Zoloft (SSRI-antidepresant) and Xanax (benzo) make a good combo although our reactions to meds are very personal. One of the things to find out is whether your pdoc is a *benzophobe* (one who doesn’t prescribe benzos because of the alleged *addcition* problem). If she is, she’s not the right one for you. Also you should feel at ease with her. You should be listened to and treated like a responsible adult. You should be able to work on treatment together rather than the doc just telling you what to do. She should explain what she prescribes and proposes and why and then you should *agree* on what’s the right course to take. Philip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks, Diana

Response:

Hi Diana, The only words of advice I can give are not medicine -related. Don’t go into your appointment believing that your doctor can wave a magic wand, say all the right things and heal you. Yes, you can be healed but you will have to work hard. Also, do a lot of reading and decide what sort of therapy will work for you. (If I have to talk about my childhood one more time, I will scream!) Also, if you don’t feel comfortable with your doctor, say so Finally, if you trust your doctor, follow his/her advice. I know how big a step it is to go to a pdoc….good for you! You’re one step closer to feeling better.  Good luck. Let us know how it goes. Charley – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello everyone haven’t posted lately but i am back, I finally made a appt with a psych doc today, my appointment if for next tuesday this is the first time for me, alittle nervous, can anyone give me any suggestions on what to look for with her to make sure she is the right one for me?  been having PA for 9 years now and finally being medicated for it .05mg of xanax and 25mg of zoloft is that a good combo? Thanks, Diana

Response:

Hey Diana!!  I’m on Zoloft, 100 mgs., and Xanax .25 mgs. as needed.  Be careful with the Zoloft…I didn’t have many side effects but it definitely increased my panic attacks in the beginning.  Hang in there…Zoloft has worked great for me.  I still have a few "muted" PAs but I can handle them much better now.  And the fact that I can drive to and from work and even make it to stores (close to home) by myself is amazing!!  I’m going up to 125 mgs. of Zoloft starting tomorrow on the advice of my pdoc…good luck and keep us all posted. Melissa

Response:

Hi, I take only zoloft 50 mgs. And it works well for me. Except around pms time when anxiety is high anyway. I feel some symtoms but they are very mild. It took 4 weeks to see the difference so give it awhile to work, the longer the better I feel.

Response:

One of the things to find out is whether your pdoc is a *benzophobe* (one who doesn’t prescribe benzos because of the alleged *addcition* problem). If she is, she’s not the right one for you.

I second this…even if I didn’t take benzos, I’d avoid benzophobic doctors just on principle! As everybody has said, Zoloft and Xanax is a good combination for panic disorder. 25mg is a starting dose of Zoloft, not a therapeutic dose; around 50mg, many people start to get some benefit, 100 is often enough, 200 is the high end (though you *can* go higher, this is the "official" recommended maximum). Doses of benzos are pretty individualized – are you taking it "as needed," or on some schedule? When I was using it for panic attacks, I needed 2mg to stop them (I didn’t take it all the time, just when I felt an attack coming on), but that’s just me. I actually don’t know how much other people use for this purpose – anyone? -elizabeth

Response:

Xanax is a standard med to be used as needed., usually in combo with another med… however, I’ve been doing a lot of reading about a rebound effect … something I experience always, so I stopped.

I’ve got a question about this: how many times a day were you taking it? I think that Xanax does not last equally long for everyone, so some people can get by taking twice a day but others need it four times a day. -elizabeth

Response:

Xanax is a standard med to be used as needed., usually in combo with another med… however, I’ve been doing a lot of reading about a rebound effect … something I experience always, so I stopped. I’ve got a question about this: how many times a day were you taking it? I think that Xanax does not last equally long for everyone, so some people can get by taking twice a day but others need it four times a day. -elizabeth

 Personally I had trouble taking it PRN because my pas were often OOB (as in while sleeping or nothing at all) although after enough of them I developed pretty much a state of constant anticipatory anxiety ..I could literally think myself into a panic attack trying to figure out how to avoid them..enter agoraphobia..Anyhow when I finally got Xanax I found if I had a PA it would generally take me 1.5-2 mgs to stop it..and I had little success with twice a day dosage,so I decided to stop the PRN route, as that is almost sure to leave anyone like myself with lots of hours of anxiety, as Xanax lasts 4 to 5 hrs at most for me. I now take it regularly .05 mg to 1 mg every four hours while awake, and if I rememeber..I do skip doses lots of times without even noticing it since my other two meds are helping a good deal too I think. But I can’t imagine twice a day being a very good xanax dosing..I would think 3 times at least given its short action. I have had almost no…nada..zero PAs for 6 weeks or more *knock on wood*, and my anxiety level is low enough to live with..I am sorry I was talked out of Xanax for so long because its tailor made for me and allows me to live, like a ..well not normal..but like a person anyhow ;- May — "Believe me! The secret of reaping the greatest fruitfulness and the greatest enjoyment from life is to live dangerously!"      -                Nietzsche

Response:

Personally I had trouble taking it PRN because my pas were often OOB (as in while sleeping or nothing at all) although after enough of them I developed pretty much a state of constant anticipatory anxiety

I pretty much *exclusively* had OOTB panic attacks; I can only think of one instance in which there’s been an apparent trigger (it was a couple months ago – anxiety about school, actually). However, I experience an aura that predicts panic pretty consistently. I’ve never had one in my sleep, but then again, I don’t sleep much. :-} Anyhow when I finally got Xanax I found if I had a PA it would generally take me 1.5-2 mgs to stop it..and I had little success with twice a day dosage,so I decided to stop the PRN route, as that is almost sure to leave anyone like myself with lots of hours of anxiety, as Xanax lasts 4 to 5 hrs at most for me.

Yowsers. It lasts a lot longer than that for me: if I take a large enough dose to be sedating, I can actually get a full night’s sleep (7-8 hours). Most people do need to take it at least 3 times a day, though. I now take it regularly .05 mg to 1 mg every four hours while awake, and if I rememeber..I do skip doses lots of times without even noticing it since my other two meds are helping a good deal too I think.

Every 4 hours? Wow. Do you wake up in the morning feeling cruddy? When I tried taking Buprenex by itself (without a regular antidepressant), I found that I would get nasty rebound depression if I missed a dose. I think that sort of thing (short-acting) is better if you have an antidepressant (or two to smooth things out. (Now I’m just using the Buprenex as a p.r.n.) -elizabeth

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Personally I had trouble taking it PRN because my pas were often OOB (as in while sleeping or nothing at all) although after enough of them I developed pretty much a state of constant anticipatory anxiety I pretty much *exclusively* had OOTB panic attacks; I can only think of one instance in which there’s been an apparent trigger (it was a couple months ago – anxiety about school, actually). However, I experience an aura that predicts panic pretty consistently. I’ve never had one in my sleep, but then again, I don’t sleep much. :-} Anyhow when I finally got Xanax I found if I had a PA it would generally take me 1.5-2 mgs to stop it..and I had little success with twice a day dosage,so I decided to stop the PRN route, as that is almost sure to leave anyone like myself with lots of hours of anxiety, as Xanax lasts 4 to 5 hrs at most for me. Yowsers. It lasts a lot longer than that for me: if I take a large enough dose to be sedating, I can actually get a full night’s sleep (7-8 hours).

 I have never experienced any sedation or gotten any "buzz" from Xanax, in fact it actually energizes me without making me "speedy", if that makes sense. I had awful drowsiness on Klonopin that never went any and I was not even on a full therapeutic dosage any of the three times I took it. I still do not sleep well and have Ambien that I take on occasion and find somewhat helpful, but If I take it more than two days in a row it seems to lose its effectiveness for me. I am totally screwed up with sleep and energy due to the fact that I work full time night shift and then watch my highly hyperactive toddler all day until 4 or 5 when my eldest daughter comes home to help. So I am always tired and yet cannot fall asleep..frustrating!  Most people do need to take it at least 3 times a day, though. I now take it regularly .05 mg to 1 mg every four hours while awake, and if I rememeber..I do skip doses lots of times without even noticing it since my other two meds are helping a good deal too I think. Every 4 hours? Wow. Do you wake up in the morning feeling cruddy?

I wake up feeling better than I ever have in my life; I no longer sleep through the alarm or take an hour to drag my butt out of it. As I said though (I think) I am also on Pamelor 50mgs and 20mgs of Prozac and I no longer necessarily take xanax every four hours..On days off at home I have forgotten to take any at all even, and then there are days where I know I am going to be better off to take it every 4 hours  before I *need* it after six…I have never had any aura at all for my OOB attacks and over the years I have accumulated a ton of triggers that I am now working on overcoming..the big one so far was not only to ride comfortably in a car but to drive myself..Now that the Pamelor/Prozac is kicking in, I am taking the xanax pretty much prn..I dont generally take more than 2 mgs total on any day now, and as I say I have never felt more competent or alive in my life =) When I tried taking Buprenex by itself (without a regular antidepressant), I found that I would get nasty rebound depression if I missed a dose. I think that sort of thing (short-acting) is better if you have an antidepressant (or two to smooth things out. (Now I’m just using the Buprenex as a p.r.n.) -elizabeth

May — "Believe me! The secret of reaping the greatest fruitfulness and the greatest enjoyment from life is to live dangerously!"      -                Nietzsche

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Question:

I’ve been taking B-multi vitamin for years, and it does help. i recently started drinking st. johns wort tea, which also helps. but i find that none of that helps enough anymore.

Response:

Hello gang, This is my first post here. I started taking St. Johns Wort about two weeks ago for Anxiety/Panic and Depression. Over the past few days my symptoms have almost completely vanished!! I did the Paxil/Zoloft/Xanax/Buspar crap, and all they did was make me worse! Thank God for St. Johns Wort! I also started taking a multivitamin twice a day, and b-complex 3 times a day. I read that most people who suffer from Anxiety/Panic and Depression are usually very deficient in B vitamins. Have a great day!! Bryan Z.

Response:

Hi Bryan, It’s great that you’re feeling better. I just wanted to echo your support for St John’s Wort.  I’m in a similar situation.  I’ve been taking it only about a week and a half, and feel so much better too.  I’m also taking b vitamins and multivitamins… so maybe there is a connection here. Take Care, – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello gang, This is my first post here. I started taking St. Johns Wort about two weeks ago for Anxiety/Panic and Depression. Over the past few days my symptoms have almost completely vanished!! I did the Paxil/Zoloft/Xanax/Buspar crap, and all they did was make me worse! Thank God for St. Johns Wort! I also started taking a multivitamin twice a day, and b-complex 3 times a day. I read that most people who suffer from Anxiety/Panic and Depression are usually very deficient in B vitamins. Have a great day!! Bryan Z.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello gang, This is my first post here. I started taking St. Johns Wort about two weeks ago for Anxiety/Panic and Depression. Over the past few days my symptoms have almost completely vanished!! I did the Paxil/Zoloft/Xanax/Buspar crap, and all they did was make me worse! Thank God for St. Johns Wort! I also started taking a multivitamin twice a day, and b-complex 3 times a day. I read that most people who suffer from Anxiety/Panic and Depression are usually very deficient in B vitamins. Have a great day!! Bryan Z.

Wow… I know what I’m switching to when my prozac runs out. — ICQ me at 29104200

Response:

Question:

What’s the difference?  Is there anyone with experience with both?

Response:

What’s the difference?  Is there anyone with experience with both?

Big difference!  Prozac started it all and many other (paxil, zoloft, effexor, luvox) followed.  The basis is the same, but for more info I would suggest doing a search on any one in particular or investing in a drug book for lay people or checking out a PDR.  There are many here that have been on both, perhaps if you specify what it is you wantr to know…. Gwen

Response:

What’s the difference?  Is there anyone with experience with both?

  Years ago my pDoc was reluctant to put me on Prozac.  I was already on Imipramine with Ativan for GAD and Prozac was known to cause anxiety.  However since depression was also a major problem for me, he finally put me on Prozac.  Worked great for me for a couple of years.  It did make me more anxious, but greatly helped my depression and panic.  Eventually I switched to Paxil because the anxiety got to be too much.  Paxil did have less of an anxiety effect on me and also helped panic and depression.  Paxil has a shorter half-life and this can make withdrawl from it more difficult (it did for me).    A search of this NG (and alt.support.depression) should provide all sorts of experiences with both. Depends on your needs as to which is best and of course YMMV.    Of course the Web has lots of info too, like these: http://www.gold.net/users/ad88/sideedi.htm http://www.MedsiteNavigator.com/drugs/drugs.html    (Prozac=Fluoxetine,Paxil=Paroxetine) Cheers, Bill

Response:

:       What is a therapeutic dose of PAXIL. That depends on you and your doctor.  SmithKline makes 10 mg (new), 20 mg, and 30 mg tablets I believe. Some of

these have scores in the middle, some don’t.  I believe the 20 mg does. One possible advantage of Paxil is faster onset of action.  Prozac usually takes weeks, Paxil is faster.  It took me about 20 minutes.  I take 20 mg.  Initial side-effects that wore off: jitters, uneven feelings.   Prolonged side-effects: inability to sleep without klonopin or Excedrin PM, libido decreasing from little to almost zilch.  Frankly, I like that, as I am going through a divorce.  My wife doesn’t want me, and I don’t want anyone else.  I would take it for that reason alone.  It makes building a network of friends easier (no ulterior motives!).  I had previously had some panic/anxiety symptoms and have had none since I started, although I do have times when I am down.

Response:

<much really good stuff snipped In my opinion (panic disorder for 27 years), what is important is for each of us to have a doctor who understands that each of us is fighting a problem that has a biological core and many psychological side effects.  

I think you’ve really encapsulated it well there, Tom. It seems to me that the worst doctor one can have is the type who has *one* cure which s/he applies universally and if it doesn’t work, the patient is at fault. The testimonies on ASAP alone bear witness to just how many different solutions there are. — Gary Cooper

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My doctor is moving me from prozac to paxil; she is under the impression that paxil has an advantage over prozac in handling anxiety. I am not good at search the literature; can anyone confirm or deny my doctor’s impression (for one thing, I dread the change-over period). Kristin —                     Kristin Rachael Hayward                 http://130.111.120.13/~hayward

Hello All!! Happy Holidays! My personal experience has been that Paxil is much more effective against panic disorder than Prozac.  I also know many others who have benefitted from Prozac re panic attacks. I tried Prozac for a short while, and it actually <<induced panic attacks, even though I started out with a gradual, upward tapering dosage.  I have friends who felt very shaky and energized while starting Paxil, but I never experiened that set of side effects either. I think the lesson to be learned is that each of us has his/her own biochemistry and (to quote Dr. George Sheehan) "each of us is an experiment of one".  We all respond differently and need to be treated as such.  For me, Paxil has been an excellent anti-panic med and Prozac was a dismal failure.  For the next person, however, the reverse could be true.  I believe that the SSRI’s and the benzos (and the tricyclics-imipramine, etc) all have a place in treating panic disorder. In my opinion (panic disorder for 27 years), what is important is for each of us to have a doctor who understands that each of us is fighting a problem that has a biological core and many psychological side effects.   I wish all of you the best in 1997 Regards, Tom — *****TRG Technologies*****                                       Tom Getts-Principal Consultant                             Web Pages                      Database Services (specialty: Oracle) General Internet Consulting    Scientific Consulting http://www.trg-tech.com                                                                    

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:       What is a therapeutic dose of PAXIL. I believe the standard therapeutic dosage for Paxil is 40mg, but you may end up on a higher or lower dosage depending on what is effective with tollerable side effects. I’m pretty comfortable at 30mg right now and may not have to move up to 40mg.                                         Best Wishes,                                         Arthur

Arthur Thanks I had a feeling 10 and 20 were low Did you get any REAL benefit at 10 or 20 (rather what did you feel happening ????) ie… No regular anxiety or just no PA ???? thanks …. John

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : : Arthur : : Thanks I had a feeling 10 and 20 were low : : Did you get any REAL benefit at 10 or 20 (rather what did you feel : happening ????) ie… No regular anxiety or just no PA ???? Well, I still have some anxiety problems at 30mg, but the PAs have stopped (I’m still celebrating that one!!!). Basically, I experienced increasing relief from the biologically caused anxiety as my dosage increased, but you can’t just get rid of all your anxiety with increased dosage. It’s natural to have some residue of psychological anxiety after experiencing severe anxiety or panic attacks, and this is best adressed with some form of psychotherapy. And let’s not forget, some degree of anxiety is simply part of a healthy mental state. The medications are a very important tool, but some of the work we just have to do ourselves.                                         Best Wishes,                                         Arthur

Thanks         I’ll keep in touch and let you now how its going John

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[snip Anyone have the address to Noodle's page?  I can never remember it. But, it has a lot of info about anxiety there! Good luck! JLS --

[snip] The URL is http://www.algy.com/anxiety/anxiety.html Best wishes, Hirsch address in header has been changed to avoid junk mail

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: : Arthur : : Thanks I had a feeling 10 and 20 were low : : Did you get any REAL benefit at 10 or 20 (rather what did you feel : happening ????) ie… No regular anxiety or just no PA ???? Well, I still have some anxiety problems at 30mg, but the PAs have stopped (I’m still celebrating that one!!!). Basically, I experienced increasing relief from the biologically caused anxiety as my dosage increased, but you can’t just get rid of all your anxiety with increased dosage. It’s natural to have some residue of psychological anxiety after experiencing severe anxiety or panic attacks, and this is best adressed with some form of psychotherapy. And let’s not forget, some degree of anxiety is simply part of a healthy mental state. The medications are a very important tool, but some of the work we just have to do ourselves.                                         Best Wishes,                                         Arthur

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:       What is a therapeutic dose of PAXIL. I believe the standard therapeutic dosage for Paxil is 40mg, but you may end up on a higher or lower dosage depending on what is effective with tollerable side effects. I’m pretty comfortable at 30mg right now and may not have to move up to 40mg.                                         Best Wishes,                                         Arthur

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My doctor is moving me from prozac to paxil; she is under the impression that paxil has an advantage over prozac in handling anxiety. I am not good at search the literature; can anyone confirm or deny my doctor’s impression (for one thing, I dread the change-over period). Kristin —                     Kristin Rachael Hayward                 http://130.111.120.13/~hayward

Kristin, I am on Paxil for anxiety, because I get really wound up, and the Dr. said it would take the edge off and calm me down.  My SO, who is bi-polar, is on Prozac, because he needs to be boosted up (He could sleep for days).  I feel better on Paxil, but it was the first med I have been on in years.  YOu can check the Anxiety Web Page to get more info. Anyone have the address to Noodle’s page?  I can never remember it. But, it has a lot of info about anxiety there! Good luck! JLS — "I’ve been searching for the Daughter of the Devil Himself, I’ve been searching for an Angel in White, I’ve been looking for a woman who’s a little of both, and I can feel her, but she’s no where in sight…"       Funny, I thought I heard someone was calling my name… http://www.winternet.com/~zodiac

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: My doctor is moving me from prozac to paxil; she is under the impression that : paxil has an advantage over prozac in handling anxiety. : : I am not good at search the literature; can anyone confirm or deny : my doctor’s impression (for one thing, I dread the change-over period). Hi Kristin, I think the most important question here is whether or not the prozac has significantly helped you? If you seem to be doing well on the prozac, then I don’t see much reason to change. However, if the prozac isn’t helping enough or if the prozac has unreliable affects, then paxil is certainly worth a try. I take paxil, but a close friend of mine takes prozac for anxiety. As long as the prozac works well for him, I wouldn’t encourage him to change. As far as I know, the only reason to prefer paxil over prozac is that, in general, people respond more reliably to paxil. Prozac may be harder to predict, but when it works for someone it seems to work as well as paxil.                                         Best Wishes,                                         Arthur

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My doctor is moving me from prozac to paxil; she is under the impression that paxil has an advantage over prozac in handling anxiety. I am not good at search the literature; can anyone confirm or deny my doctor’s impression (for one thing, I dread the change-over period). Kristin —                    Kristin Rachael Hayward                http://130.111.120.13/~hayward

Technically, Paxil has been approved by the FDA for anxiety treatment, while Prozac has not. Practically, both are used, and the responses to meds vary greatly from person to person.  The question you need to ask about the Prozac is:  Is it working??  If the Prozac has relieved your anxiety, why change??  OTOH, if you are still having problems with anxiety even after giving Prozac a chance to work, then Paxil is a reasonable alternative.  There is no one right med for anxiety, and finding the one that works best for you often involves trial and error. Please bear in mind that any of the SRI meds  (which include Prozac and PAxil) will take several weeks before they will have any effect on anxiety.  Also, it is worth noting that one of the possible side effects of these meds is an _increase_  in anxiety in the early stages.  You can get around this, if it’s a problem, by starting at a very low dose, and then working up to the therapeutic dose.  Also, a short-term prescription for a benzodiazepine can also help reduce anxiety in starting an SRI. Hope this helps, Hirsch address in header has been changed to avoid junk mail

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Please bear in mind that any of the SRI meds  (which include Prozac and PAxil) will take several weeks before they will have any effect on anxiety.  Also, it is worth noting that one of the possible side effects of these meds is an _increase_  in anxiety in the early stages.  You can get around this, if it’s a problem, by starting at a very low dose, and then working up to the therapeutic dose.  Also, a short-term prescription for a benzodiazepine can also help reduce anxiety in starting an SRI. Hope this helps, Hirsch address in header has been changed to avoid junk mail

PMJI,         What is a therapeutic dose of PAXIL.  I had a major PA ( had to get out of the car and calm down ) on a trip to new York one Sunday a month and a half ago and after that incident the next week was hell even had problems driving alone, then went to see a Psychiatrist he prescribed the PAXIL. after that could drive alone a little better.  I started at 10mg for a month and felt a only slightly better. On Sunday I moved up to 20mgs and then On Christmas eve I had to drive the family and our au-pare 45 mins away and although I had pins and needles in my hands and mild anxiesty i finished the trip up with no major problems,  once there no problemns and on the way home only  slight anxiety. ( better I think???) now I am wondering what to expect and what is the dose….. Thanks John A quiet sufferer for 15 years……

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My doctor is moving me from prozac to paxil; she is under the impression that paxil has an advantage over prozac in handling anxiety. I am not good at search the literature; can anyone confirm or deny my doctor’s impression (for one thing, I dread the change-over period). Kristin —                     Kristin Rachael Hayward                 http://130.111.120.13/~hayward

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My doctor is moving me from prozac to paxil; she is under the impression that paxil has an advantage over prozac in handling anxiety. I am not good at search the literature; can anyone confirm or deny my doctor’s impression (for one thing, I dread the change-over period).

If I recall, Paxil has US approval for anxiety problems – but I’m not sure whether that means it’s any better as such. As I understand it, it just means the manufacturer has bothered to get it approved for that purpose. Anecdotally, I have heard it claimed that it is better for this use than Prozac, but I’m not aware of any studies that prove that. If Prozac hasn’t been ‘doing the trick’, it’s a popular alternative though. Good luck with it! — Gary Cooper

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Thanks for the information David.  I suggest you visit this site for more information on Lamictal (lamotrigine)  Depression Central:             http://www.psycom.net/depression.central.html There’s some great infomration there!                                             Juliet                                   Ring the bells that still can ring                                   Forget your perfect offering.                                   There is a crack in everything.                                   That’s how the light gets in.                                   – Leonard Cohen, "Athem"-

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Hi Surfs Edge/ Juliet: I’ve been on lamactal for about 3 months. I am a very rapid cycler (I have cycled three time a day.), however lamictal was help to stop my mania. The only real problem that I have is that I am resistant to these meds. Over the last three years I have been on over a 100 different combinations of meds.  One combination lasted nine months until it broke down (frustrating). the lamictal has work very well for me until this week. I was up to 300mg per day plus 300mg of lithium.  I was previously on 1200 mg of lithium until I started lamictal. I have not experienced any side effect from lamictal. But, as you were told in a previous letter, each of us is unique and reacts differently to various meds. Good luck to you. Arne – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Has anyone had first hand expierence with lamotrigine (lamictal)? I am considering taking this med and am trying to learn more about it. I have found about the stats, etc but haven’t spoken to someone who takes this med.  Any information would be appreciated.         Thanks.                                           Juliet                                   Ring the bells that still can ring                                   Forget your perfect offering.                                   There is a crack in everything.                                   That’s how the light gets in.                                   – Leonard Cohen, "Athem"-

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Hi, I’ve been on Lamictal for a month and a half with no problems and some benefit, see my post in alt.support.depression.manic, which just goes to show what sucks about this illness .. The only way to find out how you are going to react to a medication is to take it. Rapid cyclers seem to be particularly problematic. In my case over the summer I was on Paxil an SSRI anti depressant similar to Prozac. It made me depressed and sleepy.  When I went off it I went slightly manic for several weeks. Go figure. Try to be philosophical as you experience the adventure of taking a new medication(See my posting to MoiraArwen Re Depakote in alt support depression.manic) In any case hang in there everyone. David – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Has anyone had first hand expierence with lamotrigine (lamictal)? I am i just switched off it. in my experience: good antimanic. supposedly has AD effects, but i went into a long depression on it, even though i’m usually a rapid-cycler. made me very drowsy. required me doubling my effexor dose, and i had to add atenolol for the tremors. and it’s not coated, so it tastes icky, if anyone but me cares. brooke — the further i get from the things that i care about, the less i care about how much further away i get (cure)

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An FAQ on lamotrigine (Lamictal) may be found at:        http://www.psycom.net/depression.central.lamotrigine.html Best regards . . . Ivan

: Has anyone had first hand expierence with lamotrigine (lamictal)? I am : considering taking this med and am trying to learn more about it. I have : found about the stats, etc but haven’t spoken to someone who takes this : med.  Any information would be appreciated.         Thanks. :                                           Juliet :                                   Ring the bells that still can ring :                                   Forget your perfect offering. :                                   There is a crack in everything. :                                   That’s how the light gets in. :                                   – Leonard Cohen, "Athem"- — —                                                         \\           ||                          Ivan Goldberg, MD                ~          || || V: 212 876 7800  /  1346 Lexington Ave NYC 10128  /  F: 212 737 0473 || ||             http://www.psycom.net/depression.central.html            || ||                   http://www.psycom.net/ijppp.html                   ||

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Has anyone had first hand expierence with lamotrigine (lamictal)? I am considering taking this med and am trying to learn more about it. I have found about the stats, etc but haven’t spoken to someone who takes this med.  Any information would be appreciated.         Thanks.                                           Juliet                                   Ring the bells that still can ring                                   Forget your perfect offering.                                   There is a crack in everything.                                   That’s how the light gets in.                                   – Leonard Cohen, "Athem"-

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Greetings Juliet: Below is some information that I found about Lamictal on the www. I’ve been taking it for 6 weeks so far. I’ve gradually been increasing the dose. I am up to 37.5 mg/day along with 500 mg/day Depakote. I think the lamictal is helping me. It is making a depression that I am going through now less severe than it would be otherwise. I am at a rather low dose as yet. People typically take 3 times the dose that I am taking. The only side effect that I have had is a slight headache for the first day when I increase the dose each time. I started taking only a half a 25mg pill every other day. I found out about this medication on my own via the internet and my Dr. got more information from the drug comany. It seems to be safe and has been used outside of the us by a lot of people. Anti depressants have never helped me. Lithium has never helped me. Depakote seems to make my cycles less extreme but mainly helps with mania. I’ve used that for several years. I am guardedly optimistic about Lamictal. If you have other information besides what I’ve attached and what is in the PDR, I’d be interested in hearing about it. If there is anything else you’d like to know please feel free to ask. In any case hang in there, David David Vogel Hackensack NJ Online Coverage from the 149th Annual Meeting of the American Psychiatric Association Lamotrigine in Treatment-Refractory Bipolar Disorder Robert M. Smith, MD Lamotrigine was effective in both phases of bipolar disorder in an open trial, with its most significant role anticipated for treatment of the depressed phase. Joseph Calabrese, MD, of Case Western Reserve Medical Center reported on the first 6 months of a 12-month, multicenter, open inital study of lamotrigine in treatment-resistant or -intolerant bipolar patients. Lamotrigine is an anticonvulsant derived from an antimalarial agent which has now been used in over 200,000 patients. Initial case reports in patients taking the drug showed it was effective in rapid-cycling patients with severe, refractory depression. It is well known that the depressed phase of bipolar disorder is particularly difficult to treat. The study reported on by Dr. Calabrese included 218 patients with bipolar disorder I or II, in any phase except euthymic; patients with epilepsy or active substance abuse were excluded. Positive response to lamotrigine was seen in 64% of depressed patients, and 76% of hypomanic/manic/mixed patients, as reflected in standardized measures. The study included some patients who received lamotrigine alone, and others who had a combination of antimanic agent(s) plus lamotrigine. The most common side effect and reason for discontinuing the drug was development of a rash. Lamotrigine was generally well tolerated and the results suggest efficacy in both the manic and depressed phases in bipolar disorder. Dr. Calabrese stated that the guidelines listed in the PDR may be used as a reference for dosage and estimated that the average required dose will be approximately 150mg. The drug must be titrated slowly, especially if given concurrently with medications that inhibit hepatic metabolism, such as valproate. A double-blind study is currently being conducted. Robert M. Smith, MD Robert M. Smith, MD is Attending Psychiatrist at St. Lukes/Roosevelt Hospital Outpatient Psychiatry Clinic; Candidate at The New York Psychoanalytic Institute; and Medical Director of the Villa Outpatient Substance Abuse Center. Dr. Smith was Chief Resident in Psychiatry from 1992 to 1993 at NYU Medical Center.                     http://www.medscape.com Antidepressants that once induced mood-cycling do not do so when administered along with lamotragine (Lamictal). It seems that this newly released (in the USA) anticonvulsant will play at least as large a role as valproate in the treatment of pholks with bipolar mood disorders. See also: general info on lamotrigine and its use in seizure disorders. I have found lamotrigine often to be effective in the treatment of patients:     with rapid cycling bipolar disorder     with hard-to-treat mixed states     with depression in whom     antidepressants cause mania or cycling Lamotrigine is tolerated best when introduced slowly. A rash that may necessitate discontinuation is more likely to develop in patients started on too high a dose or in those patients in whom the dose is increased too rapidly. There are some pharmacokinetic interactions of lamotrigine that should be kept in mind. Carbamazepine levels are increased by lamotrigine, and valproate levels are decreased somewhat by lamotrigine. Enzyme inducers such as carbamazepine decrease the t-1/2 of lamotrigine to the point where it should be administered q12h rather than q.o.d. In a patient not taking carbamazepine I usually initiate tx with 25 mg h.s. and increase the dose by 25 mg per day per week until a dose of 100 mg h.s. is reached. If a response is not seen after one week at this dose, I then increase the dose to 200 mg h.s. With a few patients I have had to go higher. Most impressive have been the results with rapidly cycling bipolar individuals who have not responded to valproate and/or carbamazepine. Also, the protection against antidepressant-induced cycling and mania has been very useful. I have also had good experiences using lamotrigine to treat the mood lability of so called "borderline" patients. There are no double-blind placebo-controlled studies to confirm the observations above. Charles Bowden has reported worthwhile preliminary results with lamotragine in bipolar patients, N = about 50, not published yet… Manufacturer reportedly somewhat concerned about high incidence of rashes and isn’t sure if they are comfortable investigating it for new use until there is more post-marketing data. At 07:30 AM 4/28/96 -0400,

    You mention that you begin with     a dose of 25 mg h.s. on patients     not taking carbamazepine. How     about patients on valproate? The     PDR suggests that one begins     with a dose of 25 mg every other     day for two weeks. Other     questions: Do your patients end     up only on lamotrigine? How     frequently do they end up on a     combination of lamotrigine and     carbamazepine? With patients on valproate I begin with 1/2 of a 25 mg tablet at bedtime and slowly increase the dose from there. As I see few people on carbamazepine these days, I have few who end up on the combination of carbamazepine + lamotrigine. Those who are asked for a reference regarding the innovative use of lamotrigine with patients who have treatment-resistant mood disorders may find Lamotrigine in Treatment-Refractory Bipolar Disorder useful. (EDT) "Start low and go slow" to minimize the risk of rash or other significant adverse events. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Has anyone had first hand expierence with lamotrigine (lamictal)? I am considering taking this med and am trying to learn more about it. I have found about the stats, etc but haven’t spoken to someone who takes this med.  Any information would be appreciated.         Thanks.                                          Juliet ***                                  Ring the bells that still can ring                                  Forget your perfect offering.                                  There is a crack in everything.                                  That’s how the light gets in.                                  - Leonard Cohen, "Athem"- ***

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