Question:

Hi all! I’ve been lurking with a headache for over a week & decided to join in. I have daily headaches, some sinus, tension(? I guess, tho not a tense person), new allergies, vascular & medication side effects. I have had Migraines since exactly 6mos after a total hysterectomy in 1982. Migraines have improved thru prayer, believe it or not…less frequent & not as severe, which is GREAT!  But I still do get them. I’ve been on Inderal 120mg LA for 10yrs & my reg DR won’t d/c it cuz I had an odd allergic reaction to Imitrex…a blood clot in a coronary artery…long story.  I used to rely on Fiorinal, but found the rebound headaches were worse. I just use Excedrin migraine & Excedrin PM or ecotrin…doesn’t help much & I’m sure I get rebounds from Excedrin too, but I HAVE to take something!! I have alot of other serious illnesses also & take Tylox & Soma for those.  I DID stop the nutrasweet cuz I heard it could be a cause, but haven’t noticed much difference, except a little weight gain from caloric beverages…oh well!   One thing I do recommend for ANY headache that helps ALOT & sometimes dissolves them. 1) a great husband who massages my forehead with "red Tiger Balm"…feels great & works for me. Sometimes, I can’t take the scent or know this one’s not goin’ away, so I wipe the balm off 2) Tiger balm to neck muscles & back of head 3) ICE packs to forehead & back of neck…it just soothes, doesn’t quite eliminate headache 4) Tiger balm on the sinuses  To recover from a Migraine, I start with ginger ale, saltines, Haagendaz vanilla ice cream & chicken soup. It works every time…I may be on this for a few days, but it helps the nausea, puts something in the stomach & brings some nourishment. I hope this can help any of you! ~Stacie~ Lady O writes:

  Hi all, I’ve been on Sansert since February. No real side effects (lucky me!), a slight bit of nausea when I first started, that’s it. Well, about two weeks ago, my legs started swelling. I mean, *really* swelling. I put up with it for a couple of days, until my husband looked at them and cried, "You have to see a doctor!" So, I went into the ER, no problems with my kidneys, call your "regular" doctor (whoever the h*ll that is!) take this Lasix and potassium, blah blah blah. I finally called my pain doctor, who told me it’s probably not the Sansert after this long, but better wean off of it anyhow, just in case, and we’ll see. OMG!!! I have had the most awful headache since last Monday!! I’ve been into the ER twice (*after* the first visit, because the first ER was out of dilaudid, and the morphine didn’t work, and I didn’t feel like waiting/fighting/arguing for more, and I ended up in a different ER the next day, that *HAD* dilaudid!!!), and although I’m slightly better today, I’m still counting the minutes until I can get to the pharmacy to get my refills. The Maxalt finally pooped out on me after so many days of use. How long am I going to have to endure this headache before my brain realizes that no more Sansert is coming down the chute, thank you very much?? Even if the Sansert *isn’t* causing my legs to swell, I’ll stay off of it, just so I can avoid this headache every six months. . In the meantime, I’ve got a call into the pain doc. I know that *he* knows how to dose that morphine . . . Lady :O <<<Lady O, I looked up Sansert in my nursing drug book & it CAN cause the swelling you have! generic name: Methysergide maleate action: unknown. Specifically blocks serotonin in the peripheral nervous system. ADVERSE REACTIONS: CNS: insomnia,drowsiness,euphoria, vertigo,ataxia, light-headedness,weakness,hallucinations or feelings of dissociation,rapid speech,lethargy CV(cardio-vascular):vasoconstriction,causing chest pain,vascular insufficiency of LEGS;cold,numb,pain- ful limbs with or without numbness/tingling & absent or diminished pulses, orthostatic hypotension(low BP upon arising),flushing,tachycardia(fast heartrate) PERIPHERAL EDEMA(swelling of limbs) GI:abdominal pain, nausea,vomiting,diarrhea,heart- burn,constipation ALSO:weiht gain, arthralgia,myalgia,hair loss,rash *drug shouldn’t be used for migraine,vascular head- aches, or tension (muscular contraction) headaches *if drug shows no resonse after 3wks,is unlikely to be beneficial **drug may be withdrawn gradually every 6mo & then restarted after a least 3wks **do NOT stop drug abruptly but gradually over 2-3wks;abrupt withdrawal may cause REBOUND headaches I hope you are feling better! ~Stacie!

Response:

It’s similar to LSD & has something to do with Seratonin.  I believe it was 1964 that I began taking it at the Montifiore Headache Clinic in NYC, & they did know about the 6 month protocol there. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What is the drug in Sansert? I was told that Sansert has a 6 month protocol. WE did not know that in 1965,

Response:

What is the drug in Sansert? regards Don

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was told that Sansert has a 6 month protocol. WE did not know that in 1965, I took it for 1 and a 1/2  year and it nearly killed me. It sure took care of the headache.

Response:

I was told that Sansert has a 6 month protocol.

WE did not know that in 1965, I took it for 1 and a 1/2  year and it nearly killed me. It sure took care of the headache.

Response:

You are right . . . they still say you can’t take it for more than six months.  I figured that since I’ve been on it since February, my time was almost up, anyhow. I think that doctors consider it to be a "last ditch" effort to prevent headaches.  I have had a tremendous decrease in my headaches, but I think it is more due to the fact that I’ve eliminated aspartame from my diet, rather than the Sansert. I’m still plugging along, waiting for this stuff to get out of my system for good.  I’m not taking it any more, period! Lady – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was told that Sansert has a 6 month protocol.  That is, no one should remain on it for more than 6 months at a time.  My experience was that it worked well for that length of time, after which I started getting what they called "breakthrough headaches".  Over a course of a couple of years, I was on it for a total of 2 six month periods. I believe that it is used mainly to "break a cycle" of headaches & is not intended for long term use (Caveat: This was many years ago & might be outdated information).  I wouldn’t discount the Sansert yet. I’ve been on Sansert since February.

Response:

I was told that Sansert has a 6 month protocol.  That is, no one should remain on it for more than 6 months at a time.  My experience was that it worked well for that length of time, after which I started getting what they called "breakthrough headaches".  Over a course of a couple of years, I was on it for a total of 2 six month periods. I believe that it is used mainly to "break a cycle" of headaches & is not intended for long term use (Caveat: This was many years ago & might be outdated information). – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  I wouldn’t discount the Sansert yet. I’ve been on Sansert since February.

Response:

Just a thought…I often had side effects hit me well into a therapy.  I didn’t get my first allergic reaction to Topomax until 8 months into it. They suspect it was a hormonal conflict, but still…you never know what will cause a reaction.  I wouldn’t discount the Sansert yet. I feel for you though, I know how those withdrawal headaches feel and it’s not pretty.  I’ll be praying for you cause some days…that’s all we got! Michelle

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi all, I’ve been on Sansert since February.  No real side effects (lucky me!), a slight bit of nausea when I first started, that’s it. Well, about two weeks ago, my legs started swelling.  I mean, *really* swelling.  I put up with it for a couple of days, until my husband looked at them and cried, "You have to see a doctor!"  So,  I went into the ER, no problems with my kidneys, call your "regular" doctor (whoever the h*ll that is!) take this Lasix and potassium, blah blah blah.  I finally called my pain doctor, who told me it’s probably not the Sansert after this long, but better wean off of it anyhow, just in case, and we’ll see. OMG!!!  I have had the most awful headache since last Monday!!  I’ve been into the ER twice (*after* the first visit, because the first ER was out of dilaudid, and the morphine didn’t work, and I didn’t feel like waiting/fighting/arguing for more, and I ended up in a different ER the next day, that *HAD* dilaudid!!!), and although I’m slightly better today, I’m still counting the minutes until I can get to the pharmacy to get my refills.  The Maxalt finally pooped out on me after so many days of use. How long am I going to have to endure this headache before my brain realizes that no more Sansert is coming down the chute, thank you very much??  Even if the Sansert *isn’t* causing my legs to swell, I’ll stay off of it, just so I can avoid this headache every six months. . . In the meantime, I’ve got a call into the pain doc.  I know that *he* knows  how to dose that morphine . . . Lady :O

Response:

Hi all, I’ve been on Sansert since February.  No real side effects (lucky me!), a slight bit of nausea when I first started, that’s it. Well, about two weeks ago, my legs started swelling.  I mean, *really* swelling.  I put up with it for a couple of days, until my husband looked at them and cried, "You have to see a doctor!"  So,  I went into the ER, no problems with my kidneys, call your "regular" doctor (whoever the h*ll that is!) take this Lasix and potassium, blah blah blah.  I finally called my pain doctor, who told me it’s probably not the Sansert after this long, but better wean off of it anyhow, just in case, and we’ll see. OMG!!!  I have had the most awful headache since last Monday!!  I’ve been into the ER twice (*after* the first visit, because the first ER was out of dilaudid, and the morphine didn’t work, and I didn’t feel like waiting/fighting/arguing for more, and I ended up in a different ER the next day, that *HAD* dilaudid!!!), and although I’m slightly better today, I’m still counting the minutes until I can get to the pharmacy to get my refills.  The Maxalt finally pooped out on me after so many days of use. How long am I going to have to endure this headache before my brain realizes that no more Sansert is coming down the chute, thank you very much??  Even if the Sansert *isn’t* causing my legs to swell, I’ll stay off of it, just so I can avoid this headache every six months. . . In the meantime, I’ve got a call into the pain doc.  I know that *he* knows  how to dose that morphine . . . Lady :O

Response:

Deseril (as per UK and Down Under) is Methysergide.  Used with some success but some pretty rare but bad side effects if prolonged use. Don from Down Under

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just FYO, "Deseril" is the correct spelling in: "Nursing 2002 Drug Handbook"  22nd edition Stacie    Hawki writes: Someone nicely emailed me from the UK telling me that over there Sansert IS marketed as Desiril (think that spelling is correct)…so Stacie is correct!! I also of course immediately assumed she meant Desyrl/Trazadone…of course not at all like Sansert.. learn something everyday!! this group DOES have lots of useful info to share!! rb Hawki…..the nurse practitioner

Response:

Stacie I got it now….different spellings ……I don’t think Sansert is marketed in the US as deseril tho…. rb Hawki…..the nurse practitioner

Response:

Just FYO, "Deseril" is the correct spelling in: "Nursing 2002 Drug Handbook"  22nd edition Stacie    Hawki writes: Someone nicely emailed me from the UK telling me that over there Sansert IS marketed as Desiril (think that spelling is correct)…so Stacie is correct!! I also of course immediately assumed she meant Desyrl/Trazadone…of course not at all like Sansert.. learn something everyday!! this group DOES have lots of useful info to share!! rb Hawki…..the nurse practitioner

Response:

Mouse Someone nicely emailed me from the UK telling me that over there Sansert IS marketed as Desiril (think that spelling is correct)…so Stacie is correct!! I also of course immediately assumed she meant Desyrl/Trazadone…of course not at all like Sansert.. learn something everyday!! this group DOES have lots of useful info to share!! rb Hawki…..the nurse practitioner

Response:

    Hawki writes: also Deseril is like Sansert Stacie Do you mean "desyrel" (trazadone)….??? This is NOT like Sansert!!! rb Hawki…..the nurse practitioner <<<No, Hawki..DESERIL & Sansert are both "methysergide maleate"…adrenergic blockers DESYREL is "trazodone hydrochloride"….an anti-depressant Close, but quite different! Stacie

Response:

Stacie: You can’t possibly mean Deseryl…aka trazadone, can you?  Those two drugs (deseryl and sansert) aren’t even in the same ballpark!  I can’t find reference to any drug with your spelling, Deseril.  I’ve never heard of another drug like Sansert at all.  Care to give more details? Take care, Moisie (check to verify any post allegedly by me isn’t from altopia.net/alt.net)

: Don asks: : : What is the drug in Sansert? : : "Methysergide maleate"..also Deseril is like Sansert :

Response:

also Deseril is like Sansert

Stacie Do you mean "desyrel" (trazadone)….??? This is NOT like Sansert!!! rb Hawki…..the nurse practitioner

Response:

What is the drug in Sansert?

I think it is related to ergot, not sure,Bob Wold  knows. Toty

Response:

Don asks: What is the drug in Sansert? "Methysergide maleate"..also Deseril is like Sansert

Response:

Tiger Balm helps me sometimes, too.  It doesn’t get rid of the headache, but the warmth of it distracts from the pain of the headache.  I have to be careful not to get it too close to my eyes, though.  Yeouch!! And as far as I can tell, Haagen Dazs, of any flavor, will cure *anything*! Lady <—–  who loves chocolate chocolate chip!!

<snip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   One thing I do recommend for ANY headache that helps ALOT & sometimes dissolves them. 1) a great husband who massages my forehead with "red Tiger Balm"…feels great & works for me. Sometimes, I can’t take the scent or know this one’s not goin’ away, so I wipe the balm off 2) Tiger balm to neck muscles & back of head 3) ICE packs to forehead & back of neck…it just soothes, doesn’t quite eliminate headache 4) Tiger balm on the sinuses  To recover from a Migraine, I start with ginger ale, saltines, Haagendaz vanilla ice cream & chicken soup. It works every time…I may be on this for a few days, but it helps the nausea, puts something in the stomach & brings some nourishment. I hope this can help any of you! ~Stacie~ Lady O writes:

Response:

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -question wrote:

I am a 21 year old male suffering from Social Phobia.  I’ve tried drugs in the past, mostly SSRI’s, with no real success.  Some of the drugs I’ve tried I went off immediatly due to sexual side effects, mostly inability to feel pleasure while masturbating. The most recent drug, Zoloft, I went off due to the sexual side effect after 6-8 weeks.  The sexual side effect had occured almost immediatly but I stayed on it for a little while.  After the drug was out of my system I still felt like I wasn’t getting pleasure like I used to.  I also see that I am less interested in masturbating that I used to be. (No sexual partners involved, due to social phobia and all) Can these drugs have permanent effects on a person’s sexuality when you are off them?  The psychiatrist I used to see recommended that I go on the drugs even with the side effect to deal with my social problem.  A this point, I might have to consider it. Sidenote: The drugs I’ve had sexual side effects with are Effexor and Zoloft.

(Sadly), the sexual side effects with Effexor wear off pretty quickly (personally, I’m hoping for an anti depressant that causes me to lose all interested in sex, now that would be something). Without benzos in addition to it, sex drive will go back to normal in say 4 to 6 weeks whereas time to orgasm stays higher but it’s definitely possible after the first few weeks to get there.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -questionfor2…@yahoo.com (question) wrote in message <news:7fcdbfb4.0310192029.2f9937db@posting.google.com

… I am a 21 year old male suffering from Social Phobia.  I’ve tried drugs in the past, mostly SSRI’s, with no real success.  Some of the drugs I’ve tried I went off immediatly due to sexual side effects, mostly inability to feel pleasure while masturbating. The most recent drug, Zoloft, I went off due to the sexual side effect after 6-8 weeks.  The sexual side effect had occured almost immediatly but I stayed on it for a little while.  After the drug was out of my system I still felt like I wasn’t getting pleasure like I used to.  I also see that I am less interested in masturbating that I used to be. (No sexual partners involved, due to social phobia and all) Can these drugs have permanent effects on a person’s sexuality when you are off them?  The psychiatrist I used to see recommended that I go on the drugs even with the side effect to deal with my social problem.  A this point, I might have to consider it. Sidenote: The drugs I’ve had sexual side effects with are Effexor and Zoloft. Any info would be appreciated.

i think it’s unlikely your side effects are permanent, because i experienced them continuously while taking paxil–we’re talking about a period of years–but as soon as i switched to lexapro the side effects were vastly reduced. besides lexapro, the other ssri to consider, as crackwalker pointed out, is luvox. when i decided to switch from paxil at the insistence of my new girlfriend, i told my MD i want to switch to luvox, but he said, oh no, take lexapro, so i did and the results have been excellent, although your mileage may vary. btw, if you’re curious about lexapro vis-a-vis luvox, luvox has been around much longer than lexapro, so presumably it’s not as effective as ssri’s go. lexapro, according to what i read, which might be pharm. co. propaganda, is a modified form of celexa. celexa basically contained two active components, only one of which is the ssri, so they deleted the other component that presumably caused lots of side effects to produce lexapro. good luck.

Response:

I am a 21 year old male suffering from Social Phobia.  I’ve tried drugs in the past, mostly SSRI’s, with no real success.  Some of the drugs I’ve tried I went off immediatly due to sexual side effects, mostly inability to feel pleasure while masturbating. The most recent drug, Zoloft, I went off due to the sexual side effect after 6-8 weeks.  The sexual side effect had occured almost immediatly but I stayed on it for a little while.  After the drug was out of my system I still felt like I wasn’t getting pleasure like I used to.  I also see that I am less interested in masturbating that I used to be. (No sexual partners involved, due to social phobia and all) Can these drugs have permanent effects on a person’s sexuality when you are off them?  The psychiatrist I used to see recommended that I go on the drugs even with the side effect to deal with my social problem.  A this point, I might have to consider it. Sidenote: The drugs I’ve had sexual side effects with are Effexor and Zoloft. Any info would be appreciated.

Response:

Hi I would try a.. Luvox/Fluvoxamine Its the only med in the ssri category  I can’t find anything on sexual dysfunction Crackwalker’ "question" <questionfor2…@yahoo.com

wrote in message

news:7fcdbfb4.0310192029.2f9937db@posting.google.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Any info would be appreciated.

Response:

Question:

So how did it go Elise ? Did you pdoc make any changes in your meds ? Curiously, Tony

Response:

Hi, Tony, Well I made it through my appt.  During the course of being in the waiting room an irate guy came in hollering about this, that and everything else. He did let us all know he was bi-polar, yada, yada, yada…but this kind of stuff really raises my anxiety.  I am always afraid someone will pull a gun out or some other kind of violence.  So my anxiety did raise a little. Talked with the pdoc and I am going to increase the Zoloft 12.5 for the next 2 weeks and then up another 12.5 (total 75 mgs).  Then I see him in 6 weeks or so.  Of course, we went through the "you need to get into therapy" for which I said "Remember, I don’t drive more than 3 miles…" – lol!!! I told him I was going to be going away Memorial Day and probably flying and that I had some anxiety about this.  And we talked about how Zoloft is good for anxiety and agoraphobia and that I was at a minimal dose and increasing it could help.  So, keeping my fingers crossed. Thanks for asking, Tony!!! smiles, Elise

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So how did it go Elise ? Did you pdoc make any changes in your meds ? Curiously, Tony

Response:

Hi, Tony, I don’t think I was ever intended to be able to relax.  Some things I do relax me but anxiety is always in the background – just waiting to escalate. It would be nice to just wake up and not have to think about how the day is going to be based upon anxiety…Ugh! Speaking of football, one time (NO not at band camp…hehe) we were watching the Browns vs Steelers and the game got so anxiety producing (a real nail biter) that I had to leave the room… smiles, Elise

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : I think I was taking 1 mg 2 times a day.  It never got that feeling that the : med had "kicked in" like the quick relief you get with Xanax.  Zoloft has : improved my outlook on life.  I don’t sleep all of the time any more and : have a little more motivation.  Though there is still room for improvement. : My pdoc knows about my driving and just suggests therapy.  He knows how I : feel about the fact that it’s not in my driving radius and I got tired of : having someone go with me every week.  It really is an imposition and I just : despise being so needy on my family for this. : Do you know the feeling of relief you get when you deep breath and you feel : less tense, well I have a very difficult time getting to that state.  I have : never been able to "float" when I have done relaxation tapes.  Plain and : simple I just can’t relax – always tense. : smiles, : Elise : It sounds like the Clonazepam wasn’t "right" for you. I think some of us are just hard-wired to be anxious and anticipatory. There are advantages to this, especially in sports where your mind is always thinking and seeing the play develop in your mind before it happens.  Being on edge also tends to make one very quick.  That’s me :  )  I have slowed down quite and lost alot of my anxiousness with age but I still have enough where it isn’t healthy in RL. Can you relax in a quiet room ?  Just close your eyes and repeat the word one or love or something with one syllable with every outgoing breath. I haven’t done this in a while but it definitely works for me. I can relax when I lose "myself" in listening to music, playing music, playing sports, watching a movie, watching Seinfeld, etc. I think the times I can’t relax may be partly caused by distorted thinking and partly from the way I am wired. I’m getting very, very sleepy.  It’s late :  ) Hope your pdoc appointment goes well. Take it easy Elise, Tony

Response:

: I think I was taking 1 mg 2 times a day.  It never got that feeling that the : med had "kicked in" like the quick relief you get with Xanax.  Zoloft has : improved my outlook on life.  I don’t sleep all of the time any more and : have a little more motivation.  Though there is still room for improvement. : My pdoc knows about my driving and just suggests therapy.  He knows how I : feel about the fact that it’s not in my driving radius and I got tired of : having someone go with me every week.  It really is an imposition and I just : despise being so needy on my family for this. : Do you know the feeling of relief you get when you deep breath and you feel : less tense, well I have a very difficult time getting to that state.  I have : never been able to "float" when I have done relaxation tapes.  Plain and : simple I just can’t relax – always tense. : smiles, : Elise : It sounds like the Clonazepam wasn’t "right" for you. I think some of us are just hard-wired to be anxious and anticipatory. There are advantages to this, especially in sports where your mind is always thinking and seeing the play develop in your mind before it happens.  Being on edge also tends to make one very quick.  That’s me :  )  I have slowed down quite and lost alot of my anxiousness with age but I still have enough where it isn’t healthy in RL. Can you relax in a quiet room ?  Just close your eyes and repeat the word one or love or something with one syllable with every outgoing breath. I haven’t done this in a while but it definitely works for me. I can relax when I lose "myself" in listening to music, playing music, playing sports, watching a movie, watching Seinfeld, etc. I think the times I can’t relax may be partly caused by distorted thinking and partly from the way I am wired. I’m getting very, very sleepy.  It’s late :  ) Hope your pdoc appointment goes well. Take it easy Elise, Tony

Response:

I think I was taking 1 mg 2 times a day.  It never got that feeling that the med had "kicked in" like the quick relief you get with Xanax.  Zoloft has improved my outlook on life.  I don’t sleep all of the time any more and have a little more motivation.  Though there is still room for improvement. My pdoc knows about my driving and just suggests therapy.  He knows how I feel about the fact that it’s not in my driving radius and I got tired of having someone go with me every week.  It really is an imposition and I just despise being so needy on my family for this. Do you know the feeling of relief you get when you deep breath and you feel less tense, well I have a very difficult time getting to that state.  I have never been able to "float" when I have done relaxation tapes.  Plain and simple I just can’t relax – always tense. smiles, Elise – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How much Clonazepam were you taking ? I took Xanax for a week to help me relax before I could see a pdoc for the first time.  It definitely took away the generalized and anticipatory anxiety. Zoloft tends to improve one’s mood.  One way to describe it is the satisfying feeling you have after a good meal.  The improvement in mood helps keep you in a positive frame of mind and limits the negative and anticipatory thoughts.  This change will clear your mind and give you a clean slate to work on your vocabulary of positive thoughts which in turn will boost your confidence in situations that presently cause you to feel increased anxiety. Just tell your pdoc how you feel about driving and whatever else is bothering you and he will probably increase your Zoloft dosage. Take care, Tony

Response:

I have also been extremely anxious all of my life.  Not a fun way to live… I do take Xanax regularly (1 mg per day, if I take more I am too exhausted and sleep all of the time).  I did take Clonazepam for a few months but it just didn’t seem to work for me. smiles, Elise

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Elise, You may want to look into taking a long term benzo like Clonazepam. I believe you take Xanax as needed right now. Clonazepam works for me.  I have always been overly anxious and the Clonazepam helps me to relax so I can function in RL without getting worn out every day. Tony

Response:

: Hi, Tony, : Wise decision.  No sense attempting a med change when you are under stress. : I hope things work out for you with the new position at work – sometimes you : just got keep on pushing… : smiles, : Elise I am definitely persistent. I’ll move a mountain stone by stone if it matters. Thanks, Tony

Response:

: I have also been extremely anxious all of my life.  Not a fun way to live… : I do take Xanax regularly (1 mg per day, if I take more I am too exhausted : and sleep all of the time).  I did take Clonazepam for a few months but it : just didn’t seem to work for me. : smiles, : Elise How much Clonazepam were you taking ? I took Xanax for a week to help me relax before I could see a pdoc for the first time.  It definitely took away the generalized and anticipatory anxiety. Zoloft tends to improve one’s mood.  One way to describe it is the satisfying feeling you have after a good meal.  The improvement in mood helps keep you in a positive frame of mind and limits the negative and anticipatory thoughts.  This change will clear your mind and give you a clean slate to work on your vocabulary of positive thoughts which in turn will boost your confidence in situations that presently cause you to feel increased anxiety. Just tell your pdoc how you feel about driving and whatever else is bothering you and he will probably increase your Zoloft dosage. Take care, Tony

Response:

Hi, Tony, Wise decision.  No sense attempting a med change when you are under stress. I hope things work out for you with the new position at work – sometimes you just got keep on pushing… smiles, Elise

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : Hi, Tony, : I am just still experiencing anxiety – sometimes slight and other times high : anxiety. I am hoping a med increase will help to get rid of some of this : anxiety (and tenseness) so I can try to do more exposure due to the agor. : What a darn vicious cycle this all is… : Are you still doing well with lowering the Clonazepam? : smiles, : Elise Hi Elise, I did that for a week and decided that now is not the right time for change. I’m still pushing hard for a change in position at work and it can be stressful dealing with management.  They always talk about people being their most important resource but when it comes time to "walk the talk" they tend to be non-existent. So I’m still pushing.  I push until I get what I want :  ) Thanks, Tony

Response:

Elise, You may want to look into taking a long term benzo like Clonazepam. I believe you take Xanax as needed right now. Clonazepam works for me.  I have always been overly anxious and the Clonazepam helps me to relax so I can function in RL without getting worn out every day. Tony

Response:

: Hi, Tony, : I am just still experiencing anxiety – sometimes slight and other times high : anxiety. I am hoping a med increase will help to get rid of some of this : anxiety (and tenseness) so I can try to do more exposure due to the agor. : What a darn vicious cycle this all is… : Are you still doing well with lowering the Clonazepam? : smiles, : Elise Hi Elise, I did that for a week and decided that now is not the right time for change. I’m still pushing hard for a change in position at work and it can be stressful dealing with management.  They always talk about people being their most important resource but when it comes time to "walk the talk" they tend to be non-existent. So I’m still pushing.  I push until I get what I want :  ) Thanks, Tony

Response:

Hi, Tony, I am just still experiencing anxiety – sometimes slight and other times high anxiety. I am hoping a med increase will help to get rid of some of this anxiety (and tenseness) so I can try to do more exposure due to the agor. What a darn vicious cycle this all is… Are you still doing well with lowering the Clonazepam? smiles, Elise

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : Hi, all, : Tomorrow I go to my pdoc.  It’s been almost 3 weeks since I started the 50 : mg dose.  Am I right that this is a minimal dose?  Should I see about an : increase?  Still having agor feelings and don’t like to be places alone… : smiles, : Elise : Hi Elise, I take 100 mg Zoloft every day.  I have tried going down to 50 mg but I was feeling depression lurking back into my life so I went back to 100 mg. I have never tried 75 mg which is something I may try in the future. My first pdoc was very aggressive and when I told him I was still having panic attacks at 100 mg, he boosted me up to 200 mg which I stayed on for about one year.  The panic attacks did get blocked at 200 mg.  I had lots of energy and negative thoughts rarely came up in my head.  I did feel "too normal" though.  I missed the range of emotions that I used to have and felt like too much like a "normie" :  )  Over time I dropped down to 150 mg for several months, then 100 mg, then 50 mg.  Each time I changed my dosage I would go through a period of about 2 weeks where I felt "different" during the transition.  You may feel a slight increase in anxiety during this transition period.  Just keep your seat belt on and know that you’re going to be alright and feel "level" again after a week or two of adjusting to the new dose.  It’s worth it when you feel the relief from anxiety and panic attacks at the higher dosage. None of my experiences may apply to you so I think you should let your pdoc know exactly how you are feeling and let the pdoc determine if and how much you should increase your Zoloft dosage. If I were your pdoc I would boost your dosage up to 75 mg for a month or two and see how that works. Dr. Tony

Response:

Hi, Liz, Thanks for the good wishes.  I will see what he says tomorrow about increasing the dose… smiles, Elise

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, all, Tomorrow I go to my pdoc.  It’s been almost 3 weeks since I started the 50 mg dose.  Am I right that this is a minimal dose?  Should I see about an increase?  Still having agor feelings and don’t like to be places alone… smiles, Elise I do well on 50mg, Elise, but would not mind raising it at all if needed.  You can try a higher dose and if it does not seem to help, then try something different.  Sending you good wishes for a productive visit tomorrow. Take care, Liz

Response:

Hi, Philip, I agree that I need to do CBT and more exposure for my agor but I am struggling with constant anxiety (sometimes slight anxiety and other times higher anxiety).  I am hoping the increase in the med will help get rid of some of this anxiety. smiles, Elise

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, all, Tomorrow I go to my pdoc.  It’s been almost 3 weeks since I started the 50 mg dose.  Am I right that this is a minimal dose?  Should I see about an increase?  Still having agor feelings and don’t like to be places alone… smiles, Elise Maybe your Zoloft dose needs upping. IMO agoraphobia (including going to or being in places alone) is best addressed by way of CBT. Philip

Response:

:

: Hi, all, : Tomorrow I go to my pdoc.  It’s been almost 3 weeks since I started the 50 : mg dose.  Am I right that this is a minimal dose?  Should I see about an : increase?  Still having agor feelings and don’t like to be places alone… : smiles, : Elise : : : One alternative is to increase to Zoloft 75 or 100 mg/day. Another is to add : a benzo taken on a regular basis. A two prong attack works alot better for : me. I’m on Zoloft 100 mg/day and Konopin 3 mg/day. : : Chip : I’ve had success at 100 mg Zoloft and 2 mg Clonazepam for many years. Tony

Response:

: Hi, all, : Tomorrow I go to my pdoc.  It’s been almost 3 weeks since I started the 50 : mg dose.  Am I right that this is a minimal dose?  Should I see about an : increase?  Still having agor feelings and don’t like to be places alone… : smiles, : Elise : Hi Elise, I take 100 mg Zoloft every day.  I have tried going down to 50 mg but I was feeling depression lurking back into my life so I went back to 100 mg. I have never tried 75 mg which is something I may try in the future. My first pdoc was very aggressive and when I told him I was still having panic attacks at 100 mg, he boosted me up to 200 mg which I stayed on for about one year.  The panic attacks did get blocked at 200 mg.  I had lots of energy and negative thoughts rarely came up in my head.  I did feel "too normal" though.  I missed the range of emotions that I used to have and felt like too much like a "normie" :  )  Over time I dropped down to 150 mg for several months, then 100 mg, then 50 mg.  Each time I changed my dosage I would go through a period of about 2 weeks where I felt "different" during the transition.  You may feel a slight increase in anxiety during this transition period.  Just keep your seat belt on and know that you’re going to be alright and feel "level" again after a week or two of adjusting to the new dose.  It’s worth it when you feel the relief from anxiety and panic attacks at the higher dosage. None of my experiences may apply to you so I think you should let your pdoc know exactly how you are feeling and let the pdoc determine if and how much you should increase your Zoloft dosage. If I were your pdoc I would boost your dosage up to 75 mg for a month or two and see how that works. Dr. Tony

Response:

Hi, all, Tomorrow I go to my pdoc.  It’s been almost 3 weeks since I started the 50 mg dose.  Am I right that this is a minimal dose?  Should I see about an increase?  Still having agor feelings and don’t like to be places alone… smiles, Elise

Maybe your Zoloft dose needs upping. IMO agoraphobia (including going to or being in places alone) is best addressed by way of CBT. Philip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

Hi, all, Tomorrow I go to my pdoc.  It’s been almost 3 weeks since I started the 50 mg dose.  Am I right that this is a minimal dose?  Should I see about an increase?  Still having agor feelings and don’t like to be places alone… smiles, Elise

I do well on 50mg, Elise, but would not mind raising it at all if needed.  You can try a higher dose and if it does not seem to help, then try something different.  Sending you good wishes for a productive visit tomorrow. Take care, Liz

Response:

Hi, Les, the Zoloft is doing okay for now.  I probably need an increase.  I am still having a lot of agor feelings and those just scare me to death. smiles, Elise

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Good luck tomorrow! 50mg is a pretty low dose. I think maybe i started at 50, either that or 25. I am taking zoloft still and am at 250mg. it has worked pretty well for me. i am also on lots of other meds though. how is it working for ya? les. Hi, all, Tomorrow I go to my pdoc.  It’s been almost 3 weeks since I started the 50 mg dose.  Am I right that this is a minimal dose?  Should I see about an increase?  Still having agor feelings and don’t like to be places alone… smiles, Elise

Response:

Good luck tomorrow! 50mg is a pretty low dose. I think maybe i started at 50, either that or 25. I am taking zoloft still and am at 250mg. it has worked pretty well for me. i am also on lots of other meds though. how is it working for ya? les.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, all, Tomorrow I go to my pdoc.  It’s been almost 3 weeks since I started the 50 mg dose.  Am I right that this is a minimal dose?  Should I see about an increase?  Still having agor feelings and don’t like to be places alone… smiles, Elise

Response:

Hi, all, Tomorrow I go to my pdoc.  It’s been almost 3 weeks since I started the 50 mg dose.  Am I right that this is a minimal dose?  Should I see about an increase?  Still having agor feelings and don’t like to be places alone… smiles, Elise

One alternative is to increase to Zoloft 75 or 100 mg/day. Another is to add a benzo taken on a regular basis. A two prong attack works alot better for me. I’m on Zoloft 100 mg/day and Konopin 3 mg/day. Chip

Response:

Hi Elise, I was on the 50mg amount for 4 weeks after weening on at 25mg for 6 weeks, I felt better but just not right yet, so I talk to my doc about this and we increased to 100mg , thats where I am now  and doing very well. Sometimes that little kick more of zoloft will make a difference. I would ask the doctor to increase yours, I think you will benefit more from it.  Good luck   Sandy

Response:

i m presently taking 100 mgs/day of zoloft, but the doc said that if need b, i can increase that but, i want off of it, not 2 take more am also taking 40 mgs of buspar and .5 mg of ativan u really have 2 watch with the zoloft bcuz 1 of the side effects is sexual that is y i want off of it, or at least reduce it, the higher the dose, the worse the side effects hope this might have helped

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, all, Tomorrow I go to my pdoc.  It’s been almost 3 weeks since I started the 50 mg dose.  Am I right that this is a minimal dose?  Should I see about an increase?  Still having agor feelings and don’t like to be places alone… smiles, Elise

Response:

Hi, all, Tomorrow I go to my pdoc.  It’s been almost 3 weeks since I started the 50 mg dose.  Am I right that this is a minimal dose?  Should I see about an increase?  Still having agor feelings and don’t like to be places alone… smiles, Elise

Response:

Elise wrote…… Tomorrow I go to my pdoc.  It’s been almost 3 weeks since I started the 50 mg dose.  Am I right that this is a minimal dose?  Should I see about an increase?  Still having agor feelings and don’t like to be places alone… smiles, Elise

Dear Elise, 50mgs can be a therapeutic dose for "some" and not enough for others, it is a low dose in general. Being you have invested so much time into slowly weaning on Zoloft, and you don`t seem to be happy where you are at this point, it can`t hurt to increase your dose. Take care and good luck! Jackie ~*~Flowers have spoken to me more than I can tell in written words. They are the hieroglyphics of angels, loved by all men for the beauty of the character, though few can decypher even fragments of their meaning…..

Response:

Question:

Hello folks– I’ve been prescribed Effexor XR for just over a month for moderate depression. I started at the lower doses of 37.5 and 75 mg. for two weeks, and I’ve been on the 150 mg. dose (once a day) for nearly 3 weeks.  I’ve had very few of the *customary* side effects and I’m tolerating the 150 mg. dose well, and the medication is really working well at alleviating my depression. However, I think the medication is negatively affecting my harder runs–specifically my recent 5K to 5 mile races, and my tempo/interval workout on Wednesday evenings.  For example, I’ve slowed down about 1:30 for my 5K time (29:15 in mid-November to 30:45 on New Year’s Day), and I’m considerably slower running my interval workout when I take my pill the morning of the workout.  Yesterday I experimented by skipping my pill, and ran my workout great–like before I started on the medication.  However, last nite I had very vivid dreams while sleeping (the second time this has happened), and felt groggy when getting up–which passed after I took my pill after eating breakfast this morning. Does anyone here on the newsgroups know specifically about the cardiovascular effects of anti-depressants?  Will my running/training be compromised for as long as I’m on the medication?  I’ll be mentioning this to my psychiatrist when I see her soon, but I thought I’d ask about it here first.  Since she told me that I could expect to be on medication this time for over a year (this is my 3rd recurrence of depression in 16 years), I’d really like to get this little *wrinkle* straightened out sooner instead of later! Thanks in advance– Jean Barto Newport News, VA — "If you are going through hell, keep going." Winston Churchill

Response:

Hi Jean, Here is some info: Side effects registered for Venlafaxine The FDA has forced safety related drug labelling changes regarding Efexor.

Question:

I need some help/advise. Heres my story. I am reposting it again to make sure everyone reads this. And maybe SOMEONE can help me. here goes… hello. I am a 23 yr old male, married, with 2 kids. I have come to the conclusion that i may be suffering from a major mental sickness, well, i know i am, but i just dont know which one. I have been put on anti depressents but they dont work. But, i have never told anyone of all my symptoms, and have never heard of anyone else having them and feel like i am all alone. I could really use some feedback. ass normal symptoms of depression, but you;’ll see some disturbing ones that are MORE than depresiion. 1.Wild mood swings, depression to almost on a high, can happen several times in a day. one minute i can feel like i am better than everyone, and next, i can feel that everyone is better than me. and i am shit. 2.Weight loss and gain. 3.moods go with weather, when it rains i feel more confident and happy, when its sunny, i feel like shit. this isnt always the case, but alot of the time 4. sometimes hyper, sometimes lazy 5. uncomfortable around people who i think are more attractive than me, or people my own age 6. fear that everyone is looking at me, and feer of embarassment, EXTREME fear of talking in front of more than a couple people. 7.Sometimes dont wanna leave the house and i dont know why… it’s like i wanna leave but cant. 8. get chest pains and think i am dying….. 9. dangerous and spontaneous behavior, like reckless driving, gambling 10. when i know i have to be still, i tremer uncontrolably… like when someone is watching me do something with my hands, they will go OUT of CONTROL. even when i am getting a haircut, if i know they are cutting like my baings or sides, and i KNOW my head has to stay still, it will jerk  really fast, and my neck muscles will tighten up, and then my head will like tremer. 11. sometimes very weird thoughts, and like someone is running me down inside my head. like calling me a fuck up and stuff like that. 12. sometimes i feel uncomfortable around my closest freinds, and dont know what to say… and have to leave. 13. cant do anything in front of anyone except close friends or family, like type, or even hold my hands steady, etc. 14. I find myself in these very weird moods where I feel like someone else 15. marijuana makes everything worse most the time. dont do it anymore. but once i was talking to myself out loud on it, and thought the devil was inside my head, and weird stuff like that. i was told it’s depression and social phobia, but i think it has to be more. have been put on, paxil, prozac, effexor, none work and gives me sexual side effects. Right now i am on nuerontin for my panic symptoms and a mood stabalizor, nuthing for depression because it doesnt work, and xanax for extreme panic, but i save my xanax for like haircuts, or first days on jobs. If i take like 3mg xanax(big dose) before my haircut, it’s not as bad, but it’s still there. Xanax has helped me the most so far, but i am becoming too dependent on it. I mean, who has to take xanax so there head dont shake for a haircut? Or say they can control their hands from shanking uncontollably when doing a job in front of someone. especially in that high of dose. a small dose has never worked for me. I feel helpless, and almost dead in a way. my family or freinds dont know about this, and has been gradually getting worse since the age of around 17 i beleieve. i would like to go back to school, but I would rather take a bullet to the head, than have to recite a speech in front of people. Xanax couldnt even help me there. I am so scared and confused. Its very hard for me to make friends too because of this. I am beggining to think that its some sort of manic symptoms, but dont know. have been to mental health sites, but cant find any kinda disease about the UNCONTOLLABLE shakes and tremers. I welcome all replies, and hope someone has been thru this and made it. Have had some thoughts of suicide, but would never do it, there no way cause of my kids, and i’d just be way to scared and the damage it would do to my family. someone please help me. have been to shrinks, but havent told them everything, probably wont. I just want honest replies and maybe someone knows whats wrng with me. Please help me, i pray to god every night for help, maybe i will find it here. Thanks! and also, and opinions on the meds i am currently taking? I will go now! PEACE!!!!!!!

Response:

I’d say you got manic bi-polar depression or just a case of bi-polar II, maybe some seasonal depression, Social aniexty/panic disorder…. not sure though but it seems you fall into that area.. I have the same symtoms like you said you got, except I was very shy and quiet, and didn’t have as bad of panic attacks.. I feel the same shit, just not as bad.. I take 0.5mg Xanax 3 times a day and 40mg Celexa once a day and I feel normal, like I never felt before… I been on Depakote 500mg twice a day for about 6 months then I stopped it because it made me lazy, and even after I stopped it, my manic side was still somewhat dead. That was about 8 months ago, and I still feel great now. I found nothing to kill my shyness, until I found Dextromethorphan  I wanted to get high on something, marijuana just made me act stupid and makes you think about your problems too much and you get all down from that..   So I read on the net, Robotussin Maximum Strenght Cough , one 4oz bottle only contains about Dextromethorphan HBr 355mg as the active ingredent.  My first time I chugged down the whole 4oz at once, within a hour I started to feel the effects of the DXM. It was nothing like marijuana, but it’s more up into the area with LSD, depends on the dose you take. After about 8 hours the high was almost gone, and I went to sleep.. The next 2 weeks after that, just being on my regular medication and not redosing the DXM, I felt like a new person. My shyness was almost totally gone, I could talk to people without mumbling and even keep a good convosation going without shyness or panic or worrying how I am acting.. I regularly use DXM now, just about twice a month, at a dose of about 600mg.. I have done all the way up to 1.1g to see the effects. It’s non addictive, maybe mildly "mentally" addictive for some. My point is here, I spent so much money on all different kinds of mental drugs for shyness, aniexty and depression, and all I needed was a bottle of Robitussin for $4.95.. Amazing stuff, it even cleared all the acne from my face. (19/male) Now I am about to start college soon, I am going for a good degree from a univeristy for Chemistry, and maybe into Bio-chem too.            -shroomy/Rob

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I need some help/advise. Heres my story. I am reposting it again to make sure everyone reads this. And maybe SOMEONE can help me. here goes… hello. I am a 23 yr old male, married, with 2 kids. I have come to the conclusion that i may be suffering from a major mental sickness, well, i know i am, but i just dont know which one. I have been put on anti depressents but they dont work. But, i have never told anyone of all my symptoms, and have never heard of anyone else having them and feel like i am all alone. I could really use some feedback. ass normal symptoms of depression, but you;’ll see some disturbing ones that are MORE than depresiion. 1.Wild mood swings, depression to almost on a high, can happen several times in a day. one minute i can feel like i am better than everyone, and next, i can feel that everyone is better than me. and i am shit. 2.Weight loss and gain. 3.moods go with weather, when it rains i feel more confident and happy, when its sunny, i feel like shit. this isnt always the case, but alot of the time 4. sometimes hyper, sometimes lazy 5. uncomfortable around people who i think are more attractive than me, or people my own age 6. fear that everyone is looking at me, and feer of embarassment, EXTREME fear of talking in front of more than a couple people. 7.Sometimes dont wanna leave the house and i dont know why… it’s like i wanna leave but cant. 8. get chest pains and think i am dying….. 9. dangerous and spontaneous behavior, like reckless driving, gambling 10. when i know i have to be still, i tremer uncontrolably… like when someone is watching me do something with my hands, they will go OUT of CONTROL. even when i am getting a haircut, if i know they are cutting like my baings or sides, and i KNOW my head has to stay still, it will jerk  really fast, and my neck muscles will tighten up, and then my head will like tremer. 11. sometimes very weird thoughts, and like someone is running me down inside my head. like calling me a fuck up and stuff like that. 12. sometimes i feel uncomfortable around my closest freinds, and dont know what to say… and have to leave. 13. cant do anything in front of anyone except close friends or family, like type, or even hold my hands steady, etc. 14. I find myself in these very weird moods where I feel like someone else 15. marijuana makes everything worse most the time. dont do it anymore. but once i was talking to myself out loud on it, and thought the devil was inside my head, and weird stuff like that. i was told it’s depression and social phobia, but i think it has to be more. have been put on, paxil, prozac, effexor, none work and gives me sexual side effects. Right now i am on nuerontin for my panic symptoms and a mood stabalizor, nuthing for depression because it doesnt work, and xanax for extreme panic, but i save my xanax for like haircuts, or first days on jobs. If i take like 3mg xanax(big dose) before my haircut, it’s not as bad, but it’s still there. Xanax has helped me the most so far, but i am becoming too dependent on it. I mean, who has to take xanax so there head dont shake for a haircut? Or say they can control their hands from shanking uncontollably when doing a job in front of someone. especially in that high of dose. a small dose has never worked for me. I feel helpless, and almost dead in a way. my family or freinds dont know about this, and has been gradually getting worse since the age of around 17 i beleieve. i would like to go back to school, but I would rather take a bullet to the head, than have to recite a speech in front of people. Xanax couldnt even help me there. I am so scared and confused. Its very hard for me to make friends too because of this. I am beggining to think that its some sort of manic symptoms, but dont know. have been to mental health sites, but cant find any kinda disease about the UNCONTOLLABLE shakes and tremers. I welcome all replies, and hope someone has been thru this and made it. Have had some thoughts of suicide, but would never do it, there no way cause of my kids, and i’d just be way to scared and the damage it would do to my family. someone please help me. have been to shrinks, but havent told them everything, probably wont. I just want honest replies and maybe someone knows whats wrng with me. Please help me, i pray to god every night for help, maybe i will find it here. Thanks! and also, and opinions on the meds i am currently taking? I will go now! PEACE!!!!!!!

Response:

Path: lobby!ngtf-m01.news.aol.com!portc01.blue.aol.com!howland.erols.net!newshu

b2.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc1.ne.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Newsgroups: alt.support.depression.medication Lines: 98 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.22.162.6 X-Trace: news1.rdc1.ne.home.com 1002821635 24.22.162.6 (Thu, 11 Oct 2001 10:33:55 PDT) I need some help/advise. Heres my story. I am reposting it again to make sure everyone reads this. And maybe SOMEONE can help me. here goes… hello. I am a 23 yr old male, married, with 2 kids. I have come to the conclusion that i may be suffering from a major mental sickness, well, i know i am, but i just dont know which one. I have been put on anti depressents but they dont work. But, i have never told anyone of all my symptoms, and have never heard of anyone else having them and feel like i am all alone. I could really use some feedback. ass normal symptoms of depression, but you;’ll see some disturbing ones that are MORE than depresiion. 1.Wild mood swings, depression to almost on a high, can happen several times in a day. one minute i can feel like i am better than everyone, and next, i can feel that everyone is better than me. and i am shit. 2.Weight loss and gain. 3.moods go with weather, when it rains i feel more confident and happy, when its sunny, i feel like shit. this isnt always the case, but alot of the time 4. sometimes hyper, sometimes lazy 5. uncomfortable around people who i think are more attractive than me, or people my own age 6. fear that everyone is looking at me, and feer of embarassment, EXTREME fear of talking in front of more than a couple people. 7.Sometimes dont wanna leave the house and i dont know why… it’s like i wanna leave but cant. 8. get chest pains and think i am dying….. 9. dangerous and spontaneous behavior, like reckless driving, gambling 10. when i know i have to be still, i tremer uncontrolably… like when someone is watching me do something with my hands, they will go OUT of CONTROL. even when i am getting a haircut, if i know they are cutting like my baings or sides, and i KNOW my head has to stay still, it will jerk  really fast, and my neck muscles will tighten up, and then my head will like tremer. 11. sometimes very weird thoughts, and like someone is running me down inside my head. like calling me a fuck up and stuff like that. 12. sometimes i feel uncomfortable around my closest freinds, and dont know what to say… and have to leave. 13. cant do anything in front of anyone except close friends or family, like type, or even hold my hands steady, etc. 14. I find myself in these very weird moods where I feel like someone else 15. marijuana makes everything worse most the time. dont do it anymore. but once i was talking to myself out loud on it, and thought the devil was inside my head, and weird stuff like that. i was told it’s depression and social phobia, but i think it has to be more. have been put on, paxil, prozac, effexor, none work and gives me sexual side effects. Right now i am on nuerontin for my panic symptoms and a mood stabalizor, nuthing for depression because it doesnt work, and xanax for extreme panic, but i save my xanax for like haircuts, or first days on jobs. If i take like 3mg xanax(big dose) before my haircut, it’s not as bad, but it’s still there. Xanax has helped me the most so far, but i am becoming too dependent on it. I mean, who has to take xanax so there head dont shake for a haircut? Or say they can control their hands from shanking uncontollably when doing a job in front of someone. especially in that high of dose. a small dose has never worked for me. I feel helpless, and almost dead in a way. my family or freinds dont know about this, and has been gradually getting worse since the age of around 17 i beleieve. i would like to go back to school, but I would rather take a bullet to the head, than have to recite a speech in front of people. Xanax couldnt even help me there. I am so scared and confused. Its very hard for me to make friends too because of this. I am beggining to think that its some sort of manic symptoms, but dont know. have been to mental health sites, but cant find any kinda disease about the UNCONTOLLABLE shakes and tremers. I welcome all replies, and hope someone has been thru this and made it. Have had some thoughts of suicide, but would never do it, there no way cause of my kids, and i’d just be way to scared and the damage it would do to my family. someone please help me. have been to shrinks, but havent told them everything, probably wont. I just want honest replies and maybe someone knows whats wrng with me. Please help me, i pray to god every night for help, maybe i will find it here. Thanks! and also, and opinions on the meds i am currently taking? I will go now! PEACE!!!!!!!

the fact you are on mood stablizers…and an AP   rather than neurontic…is indicative your doctors are way awead of you   perhaps they dx’d you as bipolar II or classic manic depression but didnt tell you or something? they do that if they dont think the patient can handle it…or if you have a good job, and insurance…that you might lose if dxd as bipolar…etc.. yes, – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

    I’m piggybacking on this post because I never saw the original.  Have you ever described all of these symptoms to a doctor?  I don’t want to try to "diagnose" you but I will say that when a disorder goes undiagnosed for a long time a lot of complications can come out of it.  I had anxiety disorder and depression (still do, I guess) at age 16 and had probably had them since I was about 12.  What prompted me to get help was that the panic attacks started scaring me quite badly and I absolutely would not go out in public – at first I’d cross the street to avoid people looking at me, then I’d walk instead of taking the bus, then I stopped going to school because I was having panic attacks constantly.  Being 16 and never treated I had no idea what was wrong with me and I was sure I was just plain CRAZY.  I got help after refusing to leave my house for 2 months straight.     Anyway, all I’m trying to say is that I’m sure the symptoms are as horrible as you describe, but they probably don’t indicate any horrible dreadful untreatable disease, most likely the result of living with them for a time and paying a lot of attention to them.  Get yourself to a doctor and remember, antidepressants do take some time to work.  You shouldn’t have to take that much Xanax to stop shaking in public but if you get treatment and "start small" you might find that your anxiety eases up over time and eventually you’ll be able to handle those situations.  A word on the Xanax – it’s quite addictive and when you’re done with it you need to taper off slowly if you’ve been taking it on a regular (daily, every other day) basis or you’ll have the weirdest symptoms ever and you might not know what’s going on (and think you’re going crazy – just what you need, right?).     For what it’s worth, I still have the occasional, very occasional, panic attack but it’s been 14 years since I first started getting treatment for them and have learned to "manage" them.  I have trouble now comprehending how terrifying it used to be for me to sit on a bus on a "sideways" seat, you know where you look into the aisle at all the other people?  There are a lot of things I couldn’t do back then that I mostly just take for granted now. Get help, and be honest with your doctor about ALL the symptoms.    Best of luck to you,         Liz B

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’d say you got manic bi-polar depression or just a case of bi-polar II, maybe some seasonal depression, Social aniexty/panic disorder…. not sure though but it seems you fall into that area.. I have the same symtoms like you said you got, except I was very shy and quiet, and didn’t have as bad of panic attacks.. I feel the same shit, just not as bad.. I take 0.5mg Xanax 3 times a day and 40mg Celexa once a day and I feel normal, like I never felt before… I been on Depakote 500mg twice a day for about 6 months then I stopped it because it made me lazy, and even after I stopped it, my manic side was still somewhat dead. That was about 8 months ago, and I still feel great now. I found nothing to kill my shyness, until I found Dextromethorphan  I wanted to get high on something, marijuana just made me act stupid and makes you think about your problems too much and you get all down from that.. So I read on the net, Robotussin Maximum Strenght Cough , one 4oz bottle only contains about Dextromethorphan HBr 355mg as the active ingredent.  My first time I chugged down the whole 4oz at once, within a hour I started to feel the effects of the DXM. It was nothing like marijuana, but it’s more up into the area with LSD, depends on the dose you take. After about 8 hours the high was almost gone, and I went to sleep.. The next 2 weeks after that, just being on my regular medication and not redosing the DXM, I felt like a new person. My shyness was almost totally gone, I could talk to people without mumbling and even keep a good convosation going without shyness or panic or worrying how I am acting.. I regularly use DXM now, just about twice a month, at a dose of about 600mg.. I have done all the way up to 1.1g to see the effects. It’s non addictive, maybe mildly "mentally" addictive for some. My point is here, I spent so much money on all different kinds of mental drugs for shyness, aniexty and depression, and all I needed was a bottle of Robitussin for $4.95.. Amazing stuff, it even cleared all the acne from my face. (19/male) Now I am about to start college soon, I am going for a good degree from a univeristy for Chemistry, and maybe into Bio-chem too.            -shroomy/Rob I need some help/advise. Heres my story. I am reposting it again to make sure everyone reads this. And maybe SOMEONE can help me. here goes… hello. I am a 23 yr old male, married, with 2 kids. I have come to the conclusion that i may be suffering from a major mental sickness, well, i know i am, but i just dont know which one. I have been put on anti depressents but they dont work. But, i have never told anyone of all my symptoms, and have never heard of anyone else having them and feel like i am all alone. I could really use some feedback. half ass normal symptoms of depression, but you;’ll see some disturbing ones that are MORE than depresiion. 1.Wild mood swings, depression to almost on a high, can happen several times in a day. one minute i can feel like i am better than everyone, and next, i can feel that everyone is better than me. and i am shit. 2.Weight loss and gain. 3.moods go with weather, when it rains i feel more confident and happy, when its sunny, i feel like shit. this isnt always the case, but alot of the time 4. sometimes hyper, sometimes lazy 5. uncomfortable around people who i think are more attractive than me, or people my own age 6. fear that everyone is looking at me, and feer of embarassment, EXTREME fear of talking in front of more than a couple people. 7.Sometimes dont wanna leave the house and i dont know why… it’s like i wanna leave but cant. 8. get chest pains and think i am dying….. 9. dangerous and spontaneous behavior, like reckless driving, gambling 10. when i know i have to be still, i tremer uncontrolably… like when someone is watching me do something with my hands, they will go OUT of CONTROL. even when i am getting a haircut, if i know they are cutting like my baings or sides, and i KNOW my head has to stay still, it will jerk  really fast, and my neck muscles will tighten up, and then my head will like tremer. 11. sometimes very weird thoughts, and like someone is running me down inside my head. like calling me a fuck up and stuff like that. 12. sometimes i feel uncomfortable around my closest freinds, and dont know what to say… and have to leave. 13. cant do anything in front of anyone except close friends or family, like type, or even hold my hands steady, etc. 14. I find myself in these very weird moods where I feel like someone else 15. marijuana makes everything worse most the time. dont do it anymore. but once i was talking to myself out loud on it, and thought the devil was inside my head, and weird stuff like that. i was told it’s depression and social phobia, but i think it has to be more. have been put on, paxil, prozac, effexor, none work and gives me sexual side effects. Right now i am on nuerontin for my panic symptoms and a mood stabalizor, nuthing for depression because it doesnt work, and xanax for extreme panic, but i save my xanax for like haircuts, or first days on jobs. If i take like 3mg xanax(big dose) before my haircut, it’s not as bad, but it’s still there. Xanax has helped me the most so far, but i am becoming too dependent on it. I mean, who has to take xanax so there head dont shake for a haircut? Or say they can control their hands from shanking uncontollably when doing a job in front of someone. especially in that high of dose. a small dose has never worked for me. I feel helpless, and almost dead in a way. my family or freinds dont know about this, and has been gradually getting worse since the age of around 17 i beleieve. i would like to go back to school, but I would rather take a bullet to the head, than have to recite a speech in front of people. Xanax couldnt even help me there. I am so scared and confused. Its very hard for me to make friends too because of this. I am beggining to think that its some sort of manic symptoms, but dont know. have been to mental health sites, but cant find any kinda disease about the UNCONTOLLABLE shakes and tremers. I welcome all replies, and hope someone has been thru this and made it. Have had some thoughts of suicide, but would never do it, there no way cause of my kids, and i’d just be way to scared and the damage it would do to my family. someone please help me. have been to shrinks, but havent told them everything, probably wont. I just want honest replies and maybe someone knows whats wrng with me. Please help me, i pray to god every night for help, maybe i will find it here. Thanks! and also, and opinions on the meds i am currently taking? I will go now! PEACE!!!!!!!

Response:

Question:

Hi Sandra, I’m glad you’ve found something that works to help the problem.  Originally I started supplementing my daughter with the fish oil capsules because of the study that noted benefits for people with bipolar disorder (she was diagnosed at age and we didn’t get any behavioral improvements, but her handwriting went from illegible to legible over a few weeks.  For that benefit alone we’ve continued it.  The behavior has improved with age and hard work on her part (as well as the school’s part and ours).  At her IEP review this past week we all agreed that she no longer meets the criteria, and there was much rejoicing.  Not bad in light of the bipolar disorder. Do you take any non dietary inclusive fat supplements like fish oil or CLA? If not I’d be willing to bet Lee could steer you towards some helpful choices. Take care, Carmen

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Sandra, May I ask what causes your motor control problem?  My daughter has to take an antineuroleptic drug which causes a noticeable loss of fine motor control (especially in handwriting) that was greatly ameliorated by fish oil capsules (without counteracting the Neurontin’s positive side effects). Take care, Carmen Benign Essential Tremor, which has gotten progressively worse over the years, with some attending motor control problems that seem like, but are not, symptoms of multiple sclerosis. Basically it’s a  case of "these are the symptoms you have, but we can’t say what you have for sure." They went as far as diagnosing my niece with MS, but have backed off that diagnosis as the years have gone by. The use of high amounts of both water and fat have helped the problem a lot. Sandra I weighed in at 250 this morning, no surprise after a few days of illness, during which I took a carb break again, and my TOM. Two interesting things: My motor control lessened again. I’m having trouble using my mouse this morning. Last week the motor control was back after two days of going back to induction levels of carbs. But the carb break gave me the energy to continue performing through my illness this weekend. When the Renaissance festival is over, I’m going back to a two week induction period. For the summer, I am going to start charting everything, regarding intake and exercise, and set some limits to see if I can change my loss rate from 1 pound a week to two, or at least increase my inch loss a bit. I would love to be 235 by my birthday, Aug. 28. That would mean I would look about as I did when I reached my smallest size in 20 years, eight years ago. More later. Have a good week, everyone. Sandra lc since 1/15/01 four months gone! 40 pounds gone! 290/250/165

Response:

Benign Essential Tremor, which has gotten progressively worse over the years, with some attending motor control problems that seem like, but are not, symptoms of multiple sclerosis. Basically it’s a  case of "these are the symptoms you have, but we can’t say what you have for sure." They went as far as diagnosing my niece with MS, but have backed off that diagnosis as the years have gone by.

My father has Benign Essential Tremor – it started showing when he was 18.   Mostly, it affects his hands and fine motor movements, but since he’s been in his 60s, I’ve noticed that his head shakes just a tiny bit, too. For him, it’s an annoyance and an occasional frustration.  By profession, he’s a stamp dealer, so he’s sometimes got a problem holding his tongs steady while examining a stamp.   He likes soup, but he has a very hard time holding the spoon still, so he usually passes on it unless it’s in a mug he can hold with his whole hand.   I got him a special spoon – but he didn’t care for it.  I still have it – I can send it to you, if you’d like.  It’s a bulky thing, but it has a velcro strap that fits over the hand, and the bowl stays level no matter what your fingers or hand does.  (Read more about it at: http://www.steadyproducts.com/) We work around some of the problems – at the office, I often write checks to people because his handwriting is getty shaky.  At Starbucks, the kids there (what a great bunch they are <g) bring him his coffee to his table, and they put it in a bigger mug for him (a tall in a grande cup).  We never ask him to pour coffee (although, admittedly, he’s not the parent who accidentally spilled a mugful on me <g). He’s very open about it – and if he sees you looking at his hands, he’ll bring it up first.  Because he *is* in his mid-60s, a lot of people mistake it for Parkinson’s – but it’s actually the opposite of it.  With Parkinson’s you can’t hold your empty hand steady, but if you grab something, it won’t move.  With Benign Essential Tremor, Dad can hold his hands steady as a rock, but if he picks up something, it’s very shaky. It does run through that side of the family – Dad, a couple of cousins – even my ex-brother whom I haven’t talked to him in years, but I saw him on "Jeopardy!" a few months ago, and boy, he was just one big twitch. I found a paper written by two mechanical engineers who had created a device called "a wearable tremor-suppression orthosis," and I wrote to them, but never heard anything back.  If you want to read the paper:         http://www.vard.org/jour/98/35/4/kotov354.htm If I ever stumble across anything else, I’ll let you know. Take care and be well! Myra

Response:

Hi Sandra, May I ask what causes your motor control problem?  My daughter has to take an antineuroleptic drug which causes a noticeable loss of fine motor control (especially in handwriting) that was greatly ameliorated by fish oil capsules (without counteracting the Neurontin’s positive side effects). Take care, Carmen

Benign Essential Tremor, which has gotten progressively worse over the years, with some attending motor control problems that seem like, but are not, symptoms of multiple sclerosis. Basically it’s a  case of "these are the symptoms you have, but we can’t say what you have for sure." They went as far as diagnosing my niece with MS, but have backed off that diagnosis as the years have gone by. The use of high amounts of both water and fat have helped the problem a lot. Sandra – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I weighed in at 250 this morning, no surprise after a few days of illness, during which I took a carb break again, and my TOM. Two interesting things: My motor control lessened again. I’m having trouble using my mouse this morning. Last week the motor control was back after two days of going back to induction levels of carbs. But the carb break gave me the energy to continue performing through my illness this weekend. When the Renaissance festival is over, I’m going back to a two week induction period. For the summer, I am going to start charting everything, regarding intake and exercise, and set some limits to see if I can change my loss rate from 1 pound a week to two, or at least increase my inch loss a bit. I would love to be 235 by my birthday, Aug. 28. That would mean I would look about as I did when I reached my smallest size in 20 years, eight years ago. More later. Have a good week, everyone. Sandra lc since 1/15/01 four months gone! 40 pounds gone! 290/250/165

Response:

I weighed in at 250 this morning, no surprise after a few days of illness, during which I took a carb break again, and my TOM. Two interesting things: My motor control lessened again. I’m having trouble using my mouse this morning. Last week the motor control was back after two days of going back to induction levels of carbs. But the carb break gave me the energy to continue performing through my illness this weekend. When the Renaissance festival is over, I’m going back to a two week induction period. For the summer, I am going to start charting everything, regarding intake and exercise, and set some limits to see if I can change my loss rate from 1 pound a week to two, or at least increase my inch loss a bit. I would love to be 235 by my birthday, Aug. 28. That would mean I would look about as I did when I reached my smallest size in 20 years, eight years ago. More later. Have a good week, everyone. Sandra lc since 1/15/01 four months gone! 40 pounds gone! 290/250/165

Response:

Hi Sandra, May I ask what causes your motor control problem?  My daughter has to take an antineuroleptic drug which causes a noticeable loss of fine motor control (especially in handwriting) that was greatly ameliorated by fish oil capsules (without counteracting the Neurontin’s positive side effects). Take care, Carmen

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I weighed in at 250 this morning, no surprise after a few days of illness, during which I took a carb break again, and my TOM. Two interesting things: My motor control lessened again. I’m having trouble using my mouse this morning. Last week the motor control was back after two days of going back to induction levels of carbs. But the carb break gave me the energy to continue performing through my illness this weekend. When the Renaissance festival is over, I’m going back to a two week induction period. For the summer, I am going to start charting everything, regarding intake and exercise, and set some limits to see if I can change my loss rate from 1 pound a week to two, or at least increase my inch loss a bit. I would love to be 235 by my birthday, Aug. 28. That would mean I would look about as I did when I reached my smallest size in 20 years, eight years ago. More later. Have a good week, everyone. Sandra lc since 1/15/01 four months gone! 40 pounds gone! 290/250/165

Response:

Question:

My doc put me on a beta blocker she seems to think it will help. Bringing my heart rate down some. Has anyone been on this and has it helped at all?

Response:

Julie– I have mitral valve prolapse, and the first drug I was put on to control my symptoms (the most irritating being heart palipations and a racing heart) was a beta-blocker.   It did help but, since I have blood pressure in the normal to a-little-bit-low range, it ended up lowering my blood pressure to the point where I was feeling light-headed a lot.  For a while I counteracted that by eating salty foods, but eventually I went onto anti-anxiety meds (Xanax and Zoloft), which, for me, are actually more effective and have caused me far fewer side effects.  But, except for the blood pressure issue (mine went down to like 90/60 at one point, which will make you feel really, really faint), it wasn’t bad. Lori

Response:

Hi, I took a beta blocker for several years for my anxiety – however it was started at the same time I officially started the anti-depressant I currently take.  It is difficult for me to determine how much each helped to control my symptoms.  I do know that  prior to the beta blocker I did experience a hard pounding heart beat when I would lay down at night, which was very anxiety provoking.  The beta blocker did ease that for me.  For myself, the beta blocker  was a part of a combination of meds to help manage my PD, not the only thing I was taking for it. Debbie

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My doc put me on a beta blocker she seems to think it will help. Bringing my heart rate down some. Has anyone been on this and has it helped at all?

Response:

My doc put me on a beta blocker she seems to think it will help. Bringing my heart rate down some. Has anyone been on this and has it helped at all?

I don

Question:

Ketoacidosis is not ketosis. Very different states. Ketoacidosis is indeed life threatening and must be treated immediately. Ketoacidosis is generally caused by diabetes which is out of control. Diabetes (except type I diabetes) is caused by carbohydrate metabolism.

Can anyone tell me the difference between ketoacidosis and lactoacidosis? I remember lactoacidosis being one of the potential (and extremely life-threatening) side-effects of taking the drug metformin (which I’ve since stopped taking) Is it the same as ketoacidosis? thanks ~~~~~ Rachel Outside of a dog, a book is man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. – Groucho Marx ~~~~

Response:

  Fact: ten years from now, people will look back at Atkins and his FAD diet and shake their heads and wonder if the horrible effects can be reversed.

LOL Try reading the book … Dr Atkins and his diet have been around for over 20 years now … jackass ~~~~~ Rachel Outside of a dog, a book is man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. – Groucho Marx ~~~~

Response:

"Nina" wrote … I just hate, fads, fashions, pop culture and anything else that worms its way into the mainstream culture by praying on the desperate.  This whole Dr. "Quack" Atkins thing just hits a nerve; a very sore nerve at that! Ah, so you’re here to save us from ourselves.  Good chap. <snip Thanks darling! You’re simply divine.

*laffin’ my @ss off!* ~~~~~ Rachel Outside of a dog, a book is man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. – Groucho Marx ~~~~

Response:

"Lisa C." wrote Also, I see you post to other diet newsgroups as well. Is this for the betterment of man-kind? How wonderful of you.

I was wondering how long it would take for people to bite, I’ve seen quite a few anti-low-carb messages from this guy today – poor Nigel No-Mates needs to annoy people to get any attention … poor diddums! Every newsgroup needs a troll to play with! ~~~~~ Rachel Outside of a dog, a book is man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. – Groucho Marx

Response:

Ahh, so you think that no one holds the answer.  The Doctors may not be right all the time.  And Encylopedia Britainica?  More knowledgable that PhD education biochemists?  What makes you so sure you hold the "right" answer anymore than the doctors who do recommend this diet?  Half the people in any arguement are correct, you think you way, we will think out way.  Just don’t try to save us from ourselves, and we won’t tell YOU how to run your life either. Hope (PMS’ing and bitchy from being tempted by the pizza monster tonight at a friend’s place) 183/180/145 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – And my doctor wanted to put me on medication for the rest of my life to "control" a potential blood pressure problem at the age of 14.  A year’s worth of running a mile every day and the problem disappeared, doctors can’t even explain that one. So, in my opinon, medical doctors rate just about as low as TV evangelists in my books.  BTW, notice how if they have the choice of 5 different mefications to subscribe, they choose the newest, most expensive one by default, unless otherwise instructed?

Response:

1. Extended periods of ketosis affect the chemical composition of the blood in such a way that you increase risk of cardiac incident (blood ketoacidosis). 2. In a state of ketoacidosis, carbon dioxide accumulates in the tissues. Oxygen delivery to the cells is impaired. This can lead to a wide range of disastrous consequences ranging from respiratory ailments to metabolic illness. 3. Toxic ammonia buildup resulting from severe cases of ketoacidosis can be lethal.

You neglected to note that ketoacidosis is a condition limited to Type I diabetics.  In people who are capable of producing insulin, feedback mechanisms in the body prevent dietary ketosis from becoming ketoacidosis. When ketone concentrations reach a certain level, the body releases insulin and inhibits metabolism of fats. —                 "There’s a seeker born every minute."

Response:

I love it Nina!!   lol Cath

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I don’t sell anything, actually I work for the Wildlife Conservation Society. I just hate, fads, fashions, pop culture and anything else that worms its way into the mainstream culture by praying on the desperate.  This whole Dr. "Quack" Atkins thing just hits a nerve; a very sore nerve at that! Ah, so you’re here to save us from ourselves.  Good chap. Thank you ever so much for your concern regarding my health.  In this day and age of ever-increasing apathy, it heartens me to know that you are looking out for my health needs. Thanks darling! You’re simply divine. Ta- Nina —

Response:

So far be it for me to even bother trying to help anyone further.

 Oh, good – does this mean you’ll go away now??

Response:

Well, I was posting this to keep everyone informed.  I’m not saying you don’t lose weight on this diet, I just wanted to enighten some people that only had the information being fed (no pun intended) to them by Atkins, with some objective references.

Except, the references you’ve given aren’t objective. Or complete. Encyclopedias have always been put together by biased people. You can read encyclopedias of the past to understand how this is true. For example, a writer I am fond of, Lytton Strachey, was a homosexual and lived with a woman artist he had a platonic lifelong affair with, for a good portion of his adult life. (Early 20th century) An encyclopedia from the early seventies that I was doing research in, claimed he was a lifelong bachelor, who lived until his death with his mother. This was a so-called authoritative text! Read old encyclopedias, and the archaic ideas put out by them will shock you. Read medical books from a few years back and you’ll run into the same situation. This has been true for centuries. Ketosis CAN be a symptom of a number of disorders. That does not mean it is always a symptom of a disorder. Ketogenic diets are increasingly recognized as an excellent way to deal with brain and nerve system disorders such as epilepsy & sclerosis. I know that it is certainly making a difference in my condition, benign essential tremor. There is a reason why the quotation "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing" is so true. I don’t like seeing people being taken advantage of, but everyone here seems to know everything there is about the side effects of the diet. (Or at least they want to believe everything Atkins has told them, without question.)  So far be it for me to even bother trying to help anyone further. The information is right there for anyone who wants to remove the blinders for a second.  There’s no sense in me trying to show it to you, as the saying goes, "You can lead a horse to water…"

You are assuming we are all idiots. Far from it. I didn’t leap into this diet. I was concerned about it for years. But the more I have learned, and the more I do it, the more I know I’ve made a good choice. And if you are concerned about side effects, take a look at all the pharmaceutical ads that are promoting wonder drugs right now, that must by law list the side effects of the drugs. You think this diet is dangerous? God. Sandra – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m not desperate.  I like lowcarbing and it is working for me and most of the people on the NG.  I appreciate your concern and your need to "warn" us, but honestly, nobody is dropping dead on this diet. Give it some time… the effects will start to show their ugly face. Fact: eating high protein low/no carb acidifies the body Fact: In an attempt to raise system PH, the body calls on it’s mineral stores Fact: the primary mineral stores are within the bones Fact: EATING LOWCARB WILL de-mineralize your bones THUS lead you into an osteoporotic state…. you will sneeze and fracture your ribs….EEEOUCH! Fact: if you disagree with ANY of the above, you need to research these FACTS!

Fact: It takes more than writing "Fact" to make something a Fact. Thought I would explain that to you, since you seem confused. I hate for FACTS to get in the way of a good argument, but alas, it’s now to be the case.  Before I killfile you, I’ll leave you with this: I’m imagining you’re talking about the FALLACY that "protein causes calcium loss."  I’d also imgine you’ve got nothing to back up your claim except that your mother’s-brother’s-friend-who-once-knew-a-nutritionist told you. There’s much more that goes into bone density, like activity level and hormones.  But that would be like, facts, which I think you have no desire to be in possession of.  Before you go into my killfile (ta!) I’ll leave you with this. High Protein Diets and Bone Loss by Elzi Volk http://www.allprotraining.com/Articles/NutritionCenter/2000/May/highp… (She actually uses, like, references and stuff.  But again, let’s not have facts get in the way of things) It’s believed that the old research was poorly designed and is outdated. A wee bit o’ current research. Proc Nutr Soc 1999 May;58(2):403-13 Optimal intakes of protein in the human diet. Millward DJ Centre for Nutrition and Food Safety, School of Biological Sciences, For protein, progress is slow in defining quantifiable indicators of adequacy other than balance and growth. As far as current requirements are concerned, only in the case of infants and children is there any case for revision, and  this change is to lower values. Such intakes would appear to be safe  when consumed as milk formula. In pregnancy, notwithstanding the concern that deficiency  may influence programming of disease in later life, there is little  evidence of any increased need, and some evidence that increased intakes would pose a  risk. For the elderly there is no evidence of an increased requirement  or of benefit from increased intakes, except possibly for bone health. For adults, while we  now know much more about metabolic adaptation to varying intakes, there  would appear to be no case for a change in current recommendations. As far as  risks and benefits of high intakes are concerned, there is now only a weak case for risk for renal function. For bone health the established views of risk of high protein intakes are not supported by newly-emerging data, with benefit indicated in the elderly. There is also circumstantial evidence for benefit on blood  pressure and stroke mortality. With athletes there is little evidence of benefit of increased intakes in terms of performance, with older literature suggesting an adverse influence. Thus, given that a safe upper limit is currently defined as twice the reference nutrient intake, and that for individuals with high energy requirements this value (1.5 g/kg per d) is easily exceeded, there is a  case for revising thedefinition of a safe upper limit. Cheers, Nina — 100% Sweat http://www.theslack.com/diet2.html

Response:

Ketosis-lipolysis is NOT ketoacidosis http://www.lowcarb.org/ketosis.html      Please don’t feed the TROLL.   Lee Rodgers Lee Rodgers The Lowcarb Retreat http://www.lowcarb.org LOSE weight for LOOSE jeans.  LOSERS have LOOSER jeans. "I have to say, if your mind weren’t so narrow, your waist would be." Dr.A Read the FAQ jack   http://www.grossweb.com/asdlc Lowcarb Cookbooks   http://www.lowcarb.org/cook_bks.html

Response:

Well, I was posting this to keep everyone informed.  I’m not saying you don’t lose weight on this diet, I just wanted to enighten some people that only had the information being fed (no pun intended) to them by Atkins, with some objective references. I don’t like seeing people being taken advantage of, but everyone here seems to know everything there is about the side effects of the diet. (Or at least they want to believe everything Atkins has told them, without question.)  So far be it for me to even bother trying to help anyone further. The information is right there for anyone who wants to remove the blinders for a second.  There’s no sense in me trying to show it to you, as the saying goes, "You can lead a horse to water…"

Response:

Well, I was posting this to keep everyone informed.  I’m not saying you don’t lose weight on this diet, I just wanted to enighten some people that only had the information being fed (no pun intended) to them by Atkins, with some objective references.

Everyone here is not on Atkins. I don’t like seeing people being taken advantage of, but everyone here seems to know everything there is about the side effects of the diet. (Or at least they want to believe everything Atkins has told them, without question.)  So far be it for me to even bother trying to help anyone further. The information is right there for anyone who wants to remove the blinders for a second.  There’s no sense in me trying to show it to you, as the saying goes, "You can lead a horse to water…"

Back’atcha.  Read a book once and awhile.  You might learn something. Cheers, Nina — 100% Sweat http://www.theslack.com/diet2.html

Response:

I’m not desperate.  I like lowcarbing and it is working for me and most of the people on the NG.  I appreciate your concern and your need to "warn" us, but honestly, nobody is dropping dead on this diet.

Give it some time… the effects will start to show their ugly face. Fact: eating high protein low/no carb acidifies the body Fact: In an attempt to raise system PH, the body calls on it’s mineral stores Fact: the primary mineral stores are within the bones Fact: EATING LOWCARB WILL de-mineralize your bones THUS lead you into an osteoporotic state…. you will sneeze and fracture your ribs….EEEOUCH! Fact: if you disagree with ANY of the above, you need to research these FACTS! Fact: ten years from now, people will look back at Atkins and his FAD diet and shake their heads and wonder if the horrible effects can be reversed. Fact: The Atkin’s DIE-t WILL go the way of the dinosaurs, leisure suits, AMC Pacers, disco, …etc. Maybe it’s just Atkins’ way of ridding the world of really dumb folk?… YA NEVER KNOW

Response:

And my doctor wanted to put me on medication for the rest of my life to "control" a potential blood pressure problem at the age of 14.  A year’s worth of running a mile every day and the problem disappeared, doctors can’t even explain that one. So, in my opinon, medical doctors rate just about as low as TV evangelists in my books.  BTW, notice how if they have the choice of 5 different mefications to subscribe, they choose the newest, most expensive one by default, unless otherwise instructed? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You know, my Dr. who is a DO BTW told me to go on this diet.  Is he a quack too?  I think not.  If you pay attention to history refined flours and sugars weren’t eaten in the mass quantity that they are now.  In the beginning of the 1800’s people ate only about 10 lbs. of sugar a year.  By the beginning of the 1900’s people were eating 150 lbs. of sugar a year. That is a significant increase, and that’s also the same time obesity went on the rise. I’m sure you’re thinking that people have always eaten bread and potatoes and pasta, and you’re right. But they were eating the bread and pasta from whole grain flour, which is healthier.  I’m sure that people 200 years ago were probably in a state of ketosis all the time..and they all did fine. Dr.Atkins sells his products because there is a need for them.  You don’t have to buy them if you don’t want to though.  I didn’t, I just bought the book is all.  I take my multivitamin from the vitamins I already have.  If I choose to buy shakes, I doubt I’ll buy Atkins since they’re more expensive than another brand I found that does the same thing. You should read Dr.Atkins book BEFORE judging the diet as a whole.  And you should also consider that many of us on this diet were either told to go on it by a Dr. or are under a Dr’s supervision. — -Michelle in Michigan 280/270/170 Atkins since 3-5-01

Response:

You know, my Dr. who is a DO BTW told me to go on this diet.  Is he a quack too?  I think not.  If you pay attention to history refined flours and sugars weren’t eaten in the mass quantity that they are now.  In the beginning of the 1800’s people ate only about 10 lbs. of sugar a year.  By the beginning of the 1900’s people were eating 150 lbs. of sugar a year. That is a significant increase, and that’s also the same time obesity went on the rise. I’m sure you’re thinking that people have always eaten bread and potatoes and pasta, and you’re right. But they were eating the bread and pasta from whole grain flour, which is healthier.  I’m sure that people 200 years ago were probably in a state of ketosis all the time..and they all did fine. Dr.Atkins sells his products because there is a need for them.  You don’t have to buy them if you don’t want to though.  I didn’t, I just bought the book is all.  I take my multivitamin from the vitamins I already have.  If I choose to buy shakes, I doubt I’ll buy Atkins since they’re more expensive than another brand I found that does the same thing. You should read Dr.Atkins book BEFORE judging the diet as a whole.  And you should also consider that many of us on this diet were either told to go on it by a Dr. or are under a Dr’s supervision. — -Michelle in Michigan 280/270/170 Atkins since 3-5-01

Response:

May I assume then that you have no association with the poorly designed home made web page that you quote other than the Britannica site or the products being sold there? You should update FrontPage. Also, I see you post to other diet newsgroups as well. Is this for the betterment of man-kind? How wonderful of you.              :-)     LiLi                              (180/169/125)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I don’t sell anything, actually I work for the Wildlife Conservation Society. I just hate, fads, fashions, pop culture and anything else that worms its way into the mainstream culture by praying on the desperate.  This whole Dr. "Quack" Atkins thing just hits a nerve; a very sore nerve at that! Anyway, I didn’t notice any ads in that message *shrug*. Wow Doc! Looks like you are selling a few products of your own! Is that "for the betterment of man-kind" or your pocketbook? —              :-)     LiLi                              (180/169/125) Read these articles taken form various sites on the Web: ketosis – metabolic disorder marked by high levels of ketones in the tissues and body fluids, including blood and urine. There is less sugar than normal in the blood and less glycogen (the storage form of sugar) in the liver; fat accumulates in the liver, as do amino acids, from which the liver can produce more glycogen. Ketosis may be present in diabetes mellitus. When cattle are affected, they lose weight and produce less milk; dietary adjustment to meet the special requirements of individual cattle helps avoid the condition. (Britannica.com) Now this: With further fasting, lipolysis continues to increase for a few days before it plateaus at a high rate. A large proportion of elevated fatty acids are converted to the "ketone bodies" in the liver, a process enhanced by the high level of glucagon. The brain, previously an avid and fastidious consumer of glucose, begins to use ketones as well as glucose. Eventually, more than one-half of the brain’s daily metabolic energy needs are met by the ketone bodies, thus substantially diminishing the need for hepatic glucose production. The decrease in gluconeogenesis reduces the need for protein-derived amino acids, sparing muscle and making survival during prolonged fasting possible. Starvation is characterized by very low levels of insulin, elevated concentrations of glucagon, and very high concentration of circulating free fatty acids and ketones. (Britannica.com) — When you consume a healthful and supportive diet complete with proteins, carbs, and fats, the carbohydrates are broken down into glucose. Glucose is actually blood sugar. Some of that glucose is transported and stored in muscle tissue as "glycogen." This is sort of the fuel in your fuel tank. That’s important to understand. Glycogen = Fuel. Glycogen is used to produce energy that fuels muscle contraction. ALL muscle contraction! Don’t think of muscle contraction only as exercise. Any movement requires the contraction of muscle, from blinking your eye to rising from bed in the morning. Without glycogen, you don’t have any fuel in the fuel tank. As long as you’re consuming carbs, you continue to re-fuel. You access and burn up stored glycogen, but quickly replace it with new muscle fuel. An understanding of that simple fact, that carbohydrates are the source of muscle fuel should raise an immediate red flag toward anything that suggests eliminating carbs. Once you understand the basic premise behind muscle glycogen, you should understand that the liver also plays a role in fuel storage. Some of the carbs that you eat ultimately wind up stored as liver glycogen. Think of the liver as sort of a "pump" for blood sugar. The brain burns more calories than any other organ in your body, and guess what it uses as its primary source of fuel. Glucose! Carbohydrates! As the brain results in the "burning" of blood glucose, the liver accesses its glycogen stores to keep blood glucose in adequate supply. Again, as you expend glycogen, the carbs that you ingest replete your supply. Atkins asks you to give up carbs. At first you’re doing just fine because you have glycogen stored. After a day or two, you’re using up your stored glycogen and you’re not replacing it. Your body shortly thereafter begins producing ketone bodies. I mentioned Atkins’ praise of a ketotic state already. Let’s look a bit further into this condition. Ketones are intermediaries in the process of metabolizing fat that are found in abnormal amounts in the blood and urine during periods of metabolic impairment. Give up all of your stored glycogen without replacing it and you’re likely going to be in such a state (Note: if you take in too many protein calories, it is possible to avoid carbs and never enter a state of ketosis rendering his low-carb ketosis theories useless). Atkins leads you to believe that the presence of these ketone bodies indicates ongoing fat release. He also assures you that they feed the brain. That is partially true. Here are just a few of the issues he neglects to address: 1. Extended periods of ketosis affect the chemical composition of the blood in such a way that you increase risk of cardiac incident (blood ketoacidosis). 2. In a state of ketoacidosis, carbon dioxide accumulates in the tissues. Oxygen delivery to the cells is impaired. This can lead to a wide range of disastrous consequences ranging from respiratory ailments to metabolic illness. 3. Toxic ammonia buildup resulting from severe cases of ketoacidosis can be lethal. I believe Atkins neglects to share that information with readers. He also neglects to tell you that the liver is called into play to "filter" the abnormal chemicals building up in the blood. This leads to a residual buildup of uric acid. Interestingly, this uric acid accumulation can lead to . . . formation of kidney stones! Kidney stones may be common among low carb dieters, but don’t mistake that for an indication that they’re normal! If all is working optimally, uric acid levels stay quite manageable, the kidneys continue to function normally, and you will likely never have stones accumulating in your urinary tract. (Thefitnesstruth.com) —— I have a lot of friends on low carb diets and for years now I’ve just had a feeling that something wasn’t right, after all, we all didn’t learn the 5 food groups in kindergarten just to throw it away later in life. Dr. Atkins supports the idea of placing your body in a state of Ketosis, in fact, this is what causes his diet to work.  After reading some of those articles above I have to ask "Why?".  Why would anyone want to place their body in this unhealthy state? Here’s a summary of Ketosis.  Your body starts using stored fat cells to provide fuel after the carbs are depleted.  The energy provided to the brain is only a little over 50% of the energy it needs to function, as opposed to the 100% provided by carbohydrates.  Ironically, people in this state of Ketosis don’t realize their reactions are being affected BECAUSE thier brain is operating too slowly to tell (Sorta like being unable to see the forest from the trees). Victims of starvation and insulin dependant diabetics who missed their insulin, are the ones commonly found in this state.  The first two words in the encyclopedia’s entry are "metobolic disorder".  Why then are people flocking to this diet if it requires placing your body in harm’s way? Ketosis is a bodies reaction and defense against illness.  Not only are diabetics found in this sate, anyone who has been sick for prolonged periods of time (Influenza, Bronchitis, etc.) also suffer form Ketosis, since they don’t eat as much as they should and force their body to go into this state of "emergency".  Why do you think people lose weight and look sickly thin when they’ve been sick for a while? I just can’t stress enough how unnatural this is.  It’s unnatural to artificailly place a healthy body in this sate of emergency when everything you need for a healthy living is right there in front of you. I could stand to lose a few pounds myself.  I was tempted to try a diet like this, but declined since it just didn’t sound right.  After reading what I have, I’m glad I did.  I hope some of you out there haven’t been completely suckered ito this diet by Atkins’ promise.  What he sells is a half-truth.  He lives by the phrase "A sucker is born every minute". Think about it, if he was doing this for the betterment of man-kind, why would he sell his products???

Response:

I don’t sell anything, actually I work for the Wildlife Conservation Society. I just hate, fads, fashions, pop culture and anything else that worms its way into the mainstream culture by praying on the desperate.  This whole Dr. "Quack" Atkins thing just hits a nerve; a very sore nerve at that!

Ah, so you’re here to save us from ourselves.  Good chap. Thank you ever so much for your concern regarding my health.  In this day and age of ever-increasing apathy, it heartens me to know that you are looking out for my health needs. Since you have now established yourself to be a virtual "Guardian Angel" over my well-being, I imagine you could and would be agreeable to extending your caring attitude towards the other areas of my life also. Firstly, please contact me as soon as possible so we can discuss my laundry.  I have a back-up of about three loads to do, and could you make sure to do the delicates by hand?   Secondly, Peanut the dog could really use a bath.  Please pick up the special Lytar soap at the Specialty Pet Store.  He could use a nail clip as well.  Then the bathtub will need scrubbing and, well, since you are looking out for my health, please scrub the entire bathroom whilst you’re at it.  Wouldn’t want any of those nasty germs to interfere with my health. Oh, and the car could use some gassing up and then maybe a quick sweep of the apartment.   Doc, love, you’re right up there with Mother Teresa and Princess Di. I’ll notify Stockholm. The Nobel Committmee will want to hear about this! Thanks darling! You’re simply divine. Ta- Nina — 100% Sweat http://www.theslack.com/diet2.html

Response:

Hey, I’m not desperate.  I like lowcarbing and it is working for me and most of the people on the NG.  I appreciate your concern and your need to "warn" us, but honestly, nobody is dropping dead on this diet.  I really have never felt better in my life.  Don’t get me wrong.  In my 20’s, I lost weight on the mainstream, low-fat, high complex carbo diet.  I tried it again, now that I’m in my late 30’s, and it wasn’t happening for me.  However, I started low carb and the pounds are coming off, albeit slowly, but hey, I’m in no hurry.  I personally don’t believe it’s healthy to eat all the carbs I was eating on a "normal" diet.  I don’t think Atkins is a fad diet…he’s been around since the early 70’s.  Maybe you could try the old saying, "Don’t knock it ’til you’ve tried it." Gwendolyn

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I don’t sell anything, actually I work for the Wildlife Conservation Society. I just hate, fads, fashions, pop culture and anything else that worms its way into the mainstream culture by praying on the desperate.  This whole Dr. "Quack" Atkins thing just hits a nerve; a very sore nerve at that! Anyway, I didn’t notice any ads in that message *shrug*. Wow Doc! Looks like you are selling a few products of your own! Is that "for the betterment of man-kind" or your pocketbook? —              :-)     LiLi                              (180/169/125) Read these articles taken form various sites on the Web: ketosis – metabolic disorder marked by high levels of ketones in the tissues and body fluids, including blood and urine. There is less sugar than normal in the blood and less glycogen (the storage form of sugar) in the liver; fat accumulates in the liver, as do amino acids, from which the liver can produce more glycogen. Ketosis may be present in diabetes mellitus. When cattle are affected, they lose weight and produce less milk; dietary adjustment to meet the special requirements of individual cattle helps avoid the condition. (Britannica.com) Now this: With further fasting, lipolysis continues to increase for a few days before it plateaus at a high rate. A large proportion of elevated fatty acids are converted to the "ketone bodies" in the liver, a process enhanced by the high level of glucagon. The brain, previously an avid and fastidious consumer of glucose, begins to use ketones as well as glucose. Eventually, more than one-half of the brain’s daily metabolic energy needs are met by the ketone bodies, thus substantially diminishing the need for hepatic glucose production. The decrease in gluconeogenesis reduces the need for protein-derived amino acids, sparing muscle and making survival during prolonged fasting possible. Starvation is characterized by very low levels of insulin, elevated concentrations of glucagon, and very high concentration of circulating free fatty acids and ketones. (Britannica.com) — When you consume a healthful and supportive diet complete with proteins, carbs, and fats, the carbohydrates are broken down into glucose. Glucose is actually blood sugar. Some of that glucose is transported and stored in muscle tissue as "glycogen." This is sort of the fuel in your fuel tank. That’s important to understand. Glycogen = Fuel. Glycogen is used to produce energy that fuels muscle contraction. ALL muscle contraction! Don’t think of muscle contraction only as exercise. Any movement requires the contraction of muscle, from blinking your eye to rising from bed in the morning. Without glycogen, you don’t have any fuel in the fuel tank. As long as you’re consuming carbs, you continue to re-fuel. You access and burn up stored glycogen, but quickly replace it with new muscle fuel. An understanding of that simple fact, that carbohydrates are the source of muscle fuel should raise an immediate red flag toward anything that suggests eliminating carbs. Once you understand the basic premise behind muscle glycogen, you should understand that the liver also plays a role in fuel storage. Some of the carbs that you eat ultimately wind up stored as liver glycogen. Think of the liver as sort of a "pump" for blood sugar. The brain burns more calories than any other organ in your body, and guess what it uses as its primary source of fuel. Glucose! Carbohydrates! As the brain results in the "burning" of blood glucose, the liver accesses its glycogen stores to keep blood glucose in adequate supply. Again, as you expend glycogen, the carbs that you ingest replete your supply. Atkins asks you to give up carbs. At first you’re doing just fine because you have glycogen stored. After a day or two, you’re using up your stored glycogen and you’re not replacing it. Your body shortly thereafter begins producing ketone bodies. I mentioned Atkins’ praise of a ketotic state already. Let’s look a bit further into this condition. Ketones are intermediaries in the process of metabolizing fat that are found in abnormal amounts in the blood and urine during periods of metabolic impairment. Give up all of your stored glycogen without replacing it and you’re likely going to be in such a state (Note: if you take in too many protein calories, it is possible to avoid carbs and never enter a state of ketosis rendering his low-carb ketosis theories useless). Atkins leads you to believe that the presence of these ketone bodies indicates ongoing fat release. He also assures you that they feed the brain. That is partially true. Here are just a few of the issues he neglects to address: 1. Extended periods of ketosis affect the chemical composition of the blood in such a way that you increase risk of cardiac incident (blood ketoacidosis). 2. In a state of ketoacidosis, carbon dioxide accumulates in the tissues. Oxygen delivery to the cells is impaired. This can lead to a wide range of disastrous consequences ranging from respiratory ailments to metabolic illness. 3. Toxic ammonia buildup resulting from severe cases of ketoacidosis can be lethal. I believe Atkins neglects to share that information with readers. He also neglects to tell you that the liver is called into play to "filter" the abnormal chemicals building up in the blood. This leads to a residual buildup of uric acid. Interestingly, this uric acid accumulation can lead to . . . formation of kidney stones! Kidney stones may be common among low carb dieters, but don’t mistake that for an indication that they’re normal! If all is working optimally, uric acid levels stay quite manageable, the kidneys continue to function normally, and you will likely never have stones accumulating in your urinary tract. (Thefitnesstruth.com) —— I have a lot of friends on low carb diets and for years now I’ve just had a feeling that something wasn’t right, after all, we all didn’t learn the 5 food groups in kindergarten just to throw it away later in life. Dr. Atkins supports the idea of placing your body in a state of Ketosis, in fact, this is what causes his diet to work.  After reading some of those articles above I have to ask "Why?".  Why would anyone want to place their body in this unhealthy state? Here’s a summary of Ketosis.  Your body starts using stored fat cells to provide fuel after the carbs are depleted.  The energy provided to the brain is only a little over 50% of the energy it needs to function, as opposed to the 100% provided by carbohydrates.  Ironically, people in this state of Ketosis don’t realize their reactions are being affected BECAUSE thier brain is operating too slowly to tell (Sorta like being unable to see the forest from the trees). Victims of starvation and insulin dependant diabetics who missed their insulin, are the ones commonly found in this state.  The first two words in the encyclopedia’s entry are "metobolic disorder".  Why then are people flocking to this diet if it requires placing your body in harm’s way? Ketosis is a bodies reaction and defense against illness.  Not only are diabetics found in this sate, anyone who has been sick for prolonged periods of time (Influenza, Bronchitis, etc.) also suffer form Ketosis, since they don’t eat as much as they should and force their body to go into this state of "emergency".  Why do you think people lose weight and look sickly thin when they’ve been sick for a while? I just can’t stress enough how unnatural this is.  It’s unnatural to artificailly place a healthy body in this sate of emergency when everything you need for a healthy living is right there in front of you. I could stand to lose a few pounds myself.  I was tempted to try a diet like this, but declined since it just didn’t sound right.  After reading what I have, I’m glad I did.  I hope some of you out there haven’t been completely suckered ito this diet by Atkins’ promise.  What he sells is a half-truth.  He lives by the phrase "A sucker is born every minute". Think about it, if he was doing this for the betterment of man-kind, why would he sell his products???

Response:

Cute. Lets examine some of your quotations and conclusions… Read these articles taken form various sites on the Web: ketosis – metabolic disorder marked by high levels of ketones in the tissues and body fluids, including blood and urine. There is less sugar than normal in the blood and less glycogen (the storage form of sugar) in the liver; fat accumulates in the liver, as do amino acids, from which the liver can produce more glycogen. Ketosis may be present in diabetes mellitus. When cattle are affected, they lose weight and produce less milk; dietary adjustment to meet the special requirements of individual cattle helps avoid the condition. (Britannica.com)

Ketoacidosis is not ketosis. Very different states. Ketoacidosis is indeed life threatening and must be treated immediately. Ketoacidosis is generally caused by diabetes which is out of control. Diabetes (except type I diabetes) is caused by carbohydrate metabolism. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Now this: With further fasting, lipolysis continues to increase for a few days before it plateaus at a high rate. A large proportion of elevated fatty acids are converted to the "ketone bodies" in the liver, a process enhanced by the high level of glucagon. The brain, previously an avid and fastidious consumer of glucose, begins to use ketones as well as glucose. Eventually, more than one-half of the brain’s daily metabolic energy needs are met by the ketone bodies, thus substantially diminishing the need for hepatic glucose production. The decrease in gluconeogenesis reduces the need for protein-derived amino acids, sparing muscle and making survival during prolonged fasting possible. Starvation is characterized by very low levels of insulin, elevated concentrations of glucagon, and very high concentration of circulating free fatty acids and ketones. (Britannica.com) —

Ketosis from low carbohydrate consumption is not the same state as ketosis from starvation. Whatever diet you may be on, starvation is bad news. When you consume a healthful and supportive diet complete with proteins, carbs, and fats, the carbohydrates are broken down into glucose. Glucose is actually blood sugar. Some of that glucose is transported and stored in muscle tissue as "glycogen." This is sort of the fuel in your fuel tank. That’s important to understand. Glycogen = Fuel.

Your body can burn sugar for fuel. It can also burn ethanol. And it can burn fat. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Glycogen is used to produce energy that fuels muscle contraction. ALL muscle contraction! Don’t think of muscle contraction only as exercise. Any movement requires the contraction of muscle, from blinking your eye to rising from bed in the morning. Without glycogen, you don’t have any fuel in the fuel tank. As long as you’re consuming carbs, you continue to re-fuel. You access and burn up stored glycogen, but quickly replace it with new muscle fuel. An understanding of that simple fact, that carbohydrates are the source of muscle fuel should raise an immediate red flag toward anything that suggests eliminating carbs. Once you understand the basic premise behind muscle glycogen, you should understand that the liver also plays a role in fuel storage. Some of the carbs that you eat ultimately wind up stored as liver glycogen. Think of the liver as sort of a "pump" for blood sugar. The brain burns more calories than any other organ in your body, and guess what it uses as its primary source of fuel. Glucose! Carbohydrates! As the brain results in the "burning" of blood glucose, the liver accesses its glycogen stores to keep blood glucose in adequate supply. Again, as you expend glycogen, the carbs that you ingest replete your supply. Atkins asks you to give up carbs. At first you’re doing just fine because you have glycogen stored. After a day or two, you’re using up your stored glycogen and you’re not replacing it. Your body shortly thereafter begins producing ketone bodies. I mentioned Atkins’ praise of a ketotic state already. Let’s look a bit further into this condition. Ketones are intermediaries in the process of metabolizing fat that are found in abnormal amounts in the blood and urine during periods of

How do you determine what is abnormal here? Ketones are normally present in fat metabolism, normally absent in carbohydrate metabolism. metabolic impairment. Give up all of your stored glycogen without replacing it and you’re likely going to be in such a state (Note: if you take in too many protein calories, it is possible to avoid carbs and never enter a state of ketosis rendering his low-carb ketosis theories useless). Atkins leads you to believe that the presence of these ketone bodies indicates ongoing fat release. He also assures you that they feed the brain. That is partially true. Here are just a few of the issues he neglects to address: 1. Extended periods of ketosis affect the chemical composition of the blood in such a way that you increase risk of cardiac incident (blood ketoacidosis).

No. Ketosis is not ketoacidosis. 2. In a state of ketoacidosis, carbon dioxide accumulates in the tissues. Oxygen delivery to the cells is impaired. This can lead to a wide range of disastrous consequences ranging from respiratory ailments to metabolic illness.

Also sudden death. But nobody deliberately induces ketoacidosis. 3. Toxic ammonia buildup resulting from severe cases of ketoacidosis can be lethal.

Yes. I believe Atkins neglects to share that information with readers. He

Since Dr. Atkins does not propose the inducement of a ketoacidotic state, he doesn’t generally warn his readers against that — though he does advise that ketosis is not ketoacidosis. also neglects to tell you that the liver is called into play to "filter" the abnormal chemicals building up in the blood. This leads to a

What abnormal chemicals? residual buildup of uric acid. Interestingly, this uric acid accumulation can lead to . . . formation of kidney stones!

Where did you come up with this. I have been in a state of ketosis over 7 months. Just had blood work done. No abnormal chemicals noted in the blood work. Kidney function is doing great. Kidney stones may be common among low carb dieters, but don’t mistake that for an indication that they’re normal! If all is working optimally, uric acid levels stay quite manageable, the kidneys continue to function normally, and you will likely never have stones accumulating in your urinary tract.

What makes you think that kidney stones are common among low carb eaters. Where did you get that idea? (Thefitnesstruth.com) —— I have a lot of friends on low carb diets and for years now I’ve just had a feeling that something wasn’t right, after all, we all didn’t learn the 5 food groups in kindergarten just to throw it away later in life.

I learned a lot before I was six that I discarded when I was 7. Dr. Atkins supports the idea of placing your body in a state of Ketosis, in fact, this is what causes his diet to work.  After reading some of those articles above I have to ask "Why?".  Why would anyone want to place their body in this unhealthy state?

What makes you think this is an unhealthy state? Here’s a summary of Ketosis.  Your body starts using stored fat cells to provide fuel after the carbs are depleted.  The energy provided to the brain is only a little over 50% of the energy it needs to function, as opposed to the 100% provided by carbohydrates.  Ironically, people in this state of Ketosis don’t realize their reactions are being affected BECAUSE thier brain is operating too slowly to tell (Sorta like being unable to see the forest from the trees).

That is actually funny. The brain and red blood cells do need sugar. They get all they need during ketosis by the conversion of protein to sugar. All the cells of your body need fat and are quite happy using fat for energy. I run a health care facility — a very demanding job. If my brain has been slowed down so much that I can’t even notice it, don’t you think everyone else would? Don’t you think my wife would notice that I had suddenly become slow and stupid? Victims of starvation and insulin dependant diabetics who missed their insulin, are the ones commonly found in this state.  The first two words in the encyclopedia’s entry are "metobolic disorder".  Why then are people flocking to this diet if it requires placing your body in harm’s way?

Diabetic ketoacidosis is indeed a metabolic disorder caused by the body’s inability to tolerate sugar. I certainly believe that it is wise to avoid diabetic ketoacidosis. A low carbohydrate diet is the best way to avoid that condition. Ketosis is a bodies reaction and defense against illness.  Not only are diabetics found in this sate, anyone who has been sick for prolonged periods of time (Influenza, Bronchitis, etc.) also suffer form Ketosis, since they don’t eat as much as they should and force their body to go into this state of "emergency".  Why do you think people lose weight and look sickly thin when they’ve been sick for a while?

What makes you say that ketosis is an ‘emergency state’? It is a quite normal state. The body can burn sugar (which results in one state) or fat (which results in another state). Why do you feel that one state is normal while the other is not? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just can’t stress enough how unnatural this is.  It’s unnatural to artificailly place a healthy body in this sate of emergency when everything you need for a healthy living is right there in front of you. I could stand to lose a few pounds myself.  I was tempted to try a diet like this, but declined since it just didn’t sound right.  After reading what I have, I’m glad I did.  I hope some

… read more »

Response:

Actually, in my biochem med class Yesterday I asked my professor… the brain actually prefers ketones… and she showed me. The brain doesn’t like glucose. I’d like to see a study with IQ and diet… it wouldn’t surprise me if (with a large sample size), we could show higher scores under Ketosis. That article, was… incorrect. I’ll agree with you about the media… science and health are reported inaccurately more then half the time. The fat craze is one great example. Study after study show that a calorie is a calorie is a calorie.. yet people actually try to cut back on Fat. I bet there are still doctors out there who think ulcers are related to stress… that was disproved.. its a bacterial infection… within a few years we will see the atkins diet become the diet. FDA should take over the nutrition business… why our food suppliers are telling us what is healthy is beyond me. American Heart Association Labels on Apple Jacks… get real. Just as grain production increased the pyramid… and the ratios provided (servings) is remarkably close to the grain surplus when divided spastically. I take it you probably don’t have a weight problem… or if you did… u may have been one of those who just ate too da*n much. I have no respect for those people at all. My doctor (MD, duel PhD (biochem) was the one who recommended it. Along with my sisters endocrinologist who is #1 in the world right now.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I don’t sell anything, actually I work for the Wildlife Conservation Society. I just hate, fads, fashions, pop culture and anything else that worms its way into the mainstream culture by praying on the desperate.  This whole Dr. "Quack" Atkins thing just hits a nerve; a very sore nerve at that! Anyway, I didn’t notice any ads in that message *shrug*. Wow Doc! Looks like you are selling a few products of your own! Is that "for the betterment of man-kind" or your pocketbook? —              :-)     LiLi                              (180/169/125) Read these articles taken form various sites on the Web: ketosis – metabolic disorder marked by high levels of ketones in the tissues and body fluids, including blood and urine. There is less sugar than normal in the blood and less glycogen (the storage form of sugar) in the liver; fat accumulates in the liver, as do amino acids, from which the liver can produce more glycogen. Ketosis may be present in diabetes mellitus. When cattle are affected, they lose weight and produce less milk; dietary adjustment to meet the special requirements of individual cattle helps avoid the condition. (Britannica.com) Now this: With further fasting, lipolysis continues to increase for a few days before it plateaus at a high rate. A large proportion of elevated fatty acids are converted to the "ketone bodies" in the liver, a process enhanced by the high level of glucagon. The brain, previously an avid and fastidious consumer of glucose, begins to use ketones as well as glucose. Eventually, more than one-half of the brain’s daily metabolic energy needs are met by the ketone bodies, thus substantially diminishing the need for hepatic glucose production. The decrease in gluconeogenesis reduces the need for protein-derived amino acids, sparing muscle and making survival during prolonged fasting possible. Starvation is characterized by very low levels of insulin, elevated concentrations of glucagon, and very high concentration of circulating free fatty acids and ketones. (Britannica.com) — When you consume a healthful and supportive diet complete with proteins, carbs, and fats, the carbohydrates are broken down into glucose. Glucose is actually blood sugar. Some of that glucose is transported and stored in muscle tissue as "glycogen." This is sort of the fuel in your fuel tank. That’s important to understand. Glycogen = Fuel. Glycogen is used to produce energy that fuels muscle contraction. ALL muscle contraction! Don’t think of muscle contraction only as exercise. Any movement requires the contraction of muscle, from blinking your eye to rising from bed in the morning. Without glycogen, you don’t have any fuel in the fuel tank. As long as you’re consuming carbs, you continue to re-fuel. You access and burn up stored glycogen, but quickly replace it with new muscle fuel. An understanding of that simple fact, that carbohydrates are the source of muscle fuel should raise an immediate red flag toward anything that suggests eliminating carbs. Once you understand the basic premise behind muscle glycogen, you should understand that the liver also plays a role in fuel storage. Some of the carbs that you eat ultimately wind up stored as liver glycogen. Think of the liver as sort of a "pump" for blood sugar. The brain burns more calories than any other organ in your body, and guess what it uses as its primary source of fuel. Glucose! Carbohydrates! As the brain results in the "burning" of blood glucose, the liver accesses its glycogen stores to keep blood glucose in adequate supply. Again, as you expend glycogen, the carbs that you ingest replete your supply. Atkins asks you to give up carbs. At first you’re doing just fine because you have glycogen stored. After a day or two, you’re using up your stored glycogen and you’re not replacing it. Your body shortly thereafter begins producing ketone bodies. I mentioned Atkins’ praise of a ketotic state already. Let’s look a bit further into this condition. Ketones are intermediaries in the process of metabolizing fat that are found in abnormal amounts in the blood and urine during periods of metabolic impairment. Give up all of your stored glycogen without replacing it and you’re likely going to be in such a state (Note: if you take in too many protein calories, it is possible to avoid carbs and never enter a state of ketosis rendering his low-carb ketosis theories useless). Atkins leads you to believe that the presence of these ketone bodies indicates ongoing fat release. He also assures you that they feed the brain. That is partially true. Here are just a few of the issues he neglects to address: 1. Extended periods of ketosis affect the chemical composition of the blood in such a way that you increase risk of cardiac incident (blood ketoacidosis). 2. In a state of ketoacidosis, carbon dioxide accumulates in the tissues. Oxygen delivery to the cells is impaired. This can lead to a wide range of disastrous consequences ranging from respiratory ailments to metabolic illness. 3. Toxic ammonia buildup resulting from severe cases of ketoacidosis can be lethal. I believe Atkins neglects to share that information with readers. He also neglects to tell you that the liver is called into play to "filter" the abnormal chemicals building up in the blood. This leads to a residual buildup of uric acid. Interestingly, this uric acid accumulation can lead to . . . formation of kidney stones! Kidney stones may be common among low carb dieters, but don’t mistake that for an indication that they’re normal! If all is working optimally, uric acid levels stay quite manageable, the kidneys continue to function normally, and you will likely never have stones accumulating in your urinary tract. (Thefitnesstruth.com) —— I have a lot of friends on low carb diets and for years now I’ve just had a feeling that something wasn’t right, after all, we all didn’t learn the 5 food groups in kindergarten just to throw it away later in life. Dr. Atkins supports the idea of placing your body in a state of Ketosis, in fact, this is what causes his diet to work.  After reading some of those articles above I have to ask "Why?".  Why would anyone want to place their body in this unhealthy state? Here’s a summary of Ketosis.  Your body starts using stored fat cells to provide fuel after the carbs are depleted.  The energy provided to the brain is only a little over 50% of the energy it needs to function, as opposed to the 100% provided by carbohydrates.  Ironically, people in this state of Ketosis don’t realize their reactions are being affected BECAUSE thier brain is operating too slowly to tell (Sorta like being unable to see the forest from the trees). Victims of starvation and insulin dependant diabetics who missed their insulin, are the ones commonly found in this state.  The first two words in the encyclopedia’s entry are "metobolic disorder".  Why then are people flocking to this diet if it requires placing your body in harm’s way? Ketosis is a bodies reaction and defense against illness.  Not only are diabetics found in this sate, anyone who has been sick for prolonged periods of time (Influenza, Bronchitis, etc.) also suffer form Ketosis, since they don’t eat as much as they should and force their body to go into this state of "emergency".  Why do you think people lose weight and look sickly thin when they’ve been sick for a while? I just can’t stress enough how unnatural this is.  It’s unnatural to artificailly place a healthy body in this sate of emergency when

… read more »

Response:

OH BROTHER!!! I am not even going to go into trying to explain the safety and medical aspect of this diet – except to point out that Dr. Atkins is a Doctor, a cardiologist, in fact. Go buy his book. And there is a HUGE difference between ketosis and KETOACIDOSIS or Diabetic Ketoacidosis or DKA. After reading your "interesting" post, I went and did some research that would put the difference into simple English. I don’t know what your agenda is, but here is what I found from emedicine.com and thestream.com: KETOSIS "Ketosis is a metabolic state in which the body will burn fat for fuel and is producing "ketones" (also called ketone bodies) as a byproduct. This change in metabolism occurs when the body no longer has a supply of carbohydrates to produce glycogen and after the liver has been depleted of stored glycogen. When either stored body fat or incoming dietary fat is used as fuel it breaks down into ketones. Ketones can be used as fuel for your body or discarded via your breath or urination. It is the rise in ketone production that means you are "in ketosis". Take note that although you are in ketosis this does not mean that you are *only* burning body fat. The released ketones may be from either body fat or dietary fat. Obviously, since we are trying to lose weight, we want to be in a metabolic state where body fat is being burned off.  Therefore, understanding the biochemical foundation of ketosis, we cut starches and sugars, this is called "low carbing", and  without incoming carbs, and without consuming too many grams of dietary fat or protein, our bodies will be burning stored body fat as fuel. Positive side effects of being in ketosis are that it can be protein sparing (allowing us to retain lean body mass) and that it can lead to a decrease in appetite, for some people." KETOACIDOSIS on the other hand is caused by hyperglycemia which causes an osmotic diuresis that leads to excessive loss of free water and electrolytes. Resultant hypovolemia leads to tissue hypoperfusion and lactic acidosis. The danger from electrolyte imbalances are the consequences of hyperglycemia, hyperosmolality and acidosis. CARB DIET "This biochemical process is safe. It is not a "fad" diet, it is one that our ancestors at almost exclusively. High in lean meats, fresh fruits and vegetables, low in most carbohydrates.  For a typical American at least 70% of calories are provided by foods that were practically unavailable early human times, namely processed foods such as oils, margarine, refined sugar and cereals. These typical western foods are low in minerals, vitamins and soluble fiber but high in fat and salt. There is much evidence indicating that some of these dietary factors are important causes of common western disorders like CORONARY HEART DISEASE, STROKE and DIABETES.  Rather than being harmful, there is mounting evidence that the low carbohydrate diet is extremely helpful."

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Read these articles taken form various sites on the Web: ketosis – metabolic disorder marked by high levels of ketones in the tissues and body fluids, including blood and urine. There is less sugar than normal in the blood and less glycogen (the storage form of sugar) in the liver; fat accumulates in the liver, as do amino acids, from which the liver can produce more glycogen. Ketosis may be present in diabetes mellitus. When cattle are affected, they lose weight and produce less milk; dietary adjustment to meet the special requirements of individual cattle helps avoid the condition. (Britannica.com) Now this: With further fasting, lipolysis continues to increase for a few days before it plateaus at a high rate. A large proportion of elevated fatty acids are converted to the "ketone bodies" in the liver, a process enhanced by the high level of glucagon. The brain, previously an avid and fastidious consumer of glucose, begins to use ketones as well as glucose. Eventually, more than one-half of the brain’s daily metabolic energy needs are met by the ketone bodies, thus substantially diminishing the need for hepatic glucose production. The decrease in gluconeogenesis reduces the need for protein-derived amino acids, sparing muscle and making survival during prolonged fasting possible. Starvation is characterized by very low levels of insulin, elevated concentrations of glucagon, and very high concentration of circulating free fatty acids and ketones. (Britannica.com) — When you consume a healthful and supportive diet complete with proteins, carbs, and fats, the carbohydrates are broken down into glucose. Glucose is actually blood sugar. Some of that glucose is transported and stored in muscle tissue as "glycogen." This is sort of the fuel in your fuel tank. That’s important to understand. Glycogen = Fuel. Glycogen is used to produce energy that fuels muscle contraction. ALL muscle contraction! Don’t think of muscle contraction only as exercise. Any movement requires the contraction of muscle, from blinking your eye to rising from bed in the morning. Without glycogen, you don’t have any fuel in the fuel tank. As long as you’re consuming carbs, you continue to re-fuel. You access and burn up stored glycogen, but quickly replace it with new muscle fuel. An understanding of that simple fact, that carbohydrates are the source of muscle fuel should raise an immediate red flag toward anything that suggests eliminating carbs. Once you understand the basic premise behind muscle glycogen, you should understand that the liver also plays a role in fuel storage. Some of the carbs that you eat ultimately wind up stored as liver glycogen. Think of the liver as sort of a "pump" for blood sugar. The brain burns more calories than any other organ in your body, and guess what it uses as its primary source of fuel. Glucose! Carbohydrates! As the brain results in the "burning" of blood glucose, the liver accesses its glycogen stores to keep blood glucose in adequate supply. Again, as you expend glycogen, the carbs that you ingest replete your supply. Atkins asks you to give up carbs. At first you’re doing just fine because you have glycogen stored. After a day or two, you’re using up your stored glycogen and you’re not replacing it. Your body shortly thereafter begins producing ketone bodies. I mentioned Atkins’ praise of a ketotic state already. Let’s look a bit further into this condition. Ketones are intermediaries in the process of metabolizing fat that are found in abnormal amounts in the blood and urine during periods of metabolic impairment. Give up all of your stored glycogen without replacing it and you’re likely going to be in such a state (Note: if you take in too many protein calories, it is possible to avoid carbs and never enter a state of ketosis rendering his low-carb ketosis theories useless). Atkins leads you to believe that the presence of these ketone bodies indicates ongoing fat release. He also assures you that they feed the brain. That is partially true. Here are just a few of the issues he neglects to address: 1. Extended periods of ketosis affect the chemical composition of the blood in such a way that you increase risk of cardiac incident (blood ketoacidosis). 2. In a state of ketoacidosis, carbon dioxide accumulates in the tissues. Oxygen delivery to the cells is impaired. This can lead to a wide range of disastrous consequences ranging from respiratory ailments to metabolic illness. 3. Toxic ammonia buildup resulting from severe cases of ketoacidosis can be lethal. I believe Atkins neglects to share that information with readers. He also neglects to tell you that the liver is called into play to "filter" the abnormal chemicals building up in the blood. This leads to a residual buildup of uric acid. Interestingly, this uric acid accumulation can lead to . . . formation of kidney stones! Kidney stones may be common among low carb dieters, but don’t mistake that for an indication that they’re normal! If all is working optimally, uric acid levels stay quite manageable, the kidneys continue to function normally, and you will likely never have stones accumulating in your urinary tract. (Thefitnesstruth.com) —— I have a lot of friends on low carb diets and for years now I’ve just had a feeling that something wasn’t right, after all, we all didn’t learn the 5 food groups in kindergarten just to throw it away later in life. Dr. Atkins supports the idea of placing your body in a state of Ketosis, in fact, this is what causes his diet to work.  After reading some of those articles above I have to ask "Why?".  Why would anyone want to place their body in this unhealthy state? Here’s a summary of Ketosis.  Your body starts using stored fat cells to provide fuel after the carbs are depleted.  The energy provided to the brain is only a little over 50% of the energy it needs to function, as opposed to the 100% provided by carbohydrates.  Ironically, people in this state of Ketosis don’t realize their reactions are being affected BECAUSE thier brain is operating too slowly to tell (Sorta like being unable to see the forest from the trees). Victims of starvation and insulin dependant diabetics who missed their insulin, are the ones commonly found in this state.  The first two words in the encyclopedia’s entry are "metobolic disorder".  Why then are people flocking to this diet if it requires placing your body in harm’s way? Ketosis is a bodies reaction and defense against illness.  Not only are diabetics found in this sate, anyone who has been sick for prolonged periods of time (Influenza, Bronchitis, etc.) also suffer form Ketosis,

… read more »

Response:

I don’t sell anything, actually I work for the Wildlife Conservation Society. I just hate, fads, fashions, pop culture and anything else that worms its way into the mainstream culture by praying on the desperate.  This whole Dr. "Quack" Atkins thing just hits a nerve; a very sore nerve at that! Anyway, I didn’t notice any ads in that message *shrug*. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Wow Doc! Looks like you are selling a few products of your own! Is that "for the betterment of man-kind" or your pocketbook? —              :-)     LiLi                              (180/169/125) Read these articles taken form various sites on the Web: ketosis – metabolic disorder marked by high levels of ketones in the tissues and body fluids, including blood and urine. There is less sugar than normal in the blood and less glycogen (the storage form of sugar) in the liver; fat accumulates in the liver, as do amino acids, from which the liver can produce more glycogen. Ketosis may be present in diabetes mellitus. When cattle are affected, they lose weight and produce less milk; dietary adjustment to meet the special requirements of individual cattle helps avoid the condition. (Britannica.com) Now this: With further fasting, lipolysis continues to increase for a few days before it plateaus at a high rate. A large proportion of elevated fatty acids are converted to the "ketone bodies" in the liver, a process enhanced by the high level of glucagon. The brain, previously an avid and fastidious consumer of glucose, begins to use ketones as well as glucose. Eventually, more than one-half of the brain’s daily metabolic energy needs are met by the ketone bodies, thus substantially diminishing the need for hepatic glucose production. The decrease in gluconeogenesis reduces the need for protein-derived amino acids, sparing muscle and making survival during prolonged fasting possible. Starvation is characterized by very low levels of insulin, elevated concentrations of glucagon, and very high concentration of circulating free fatty acids and ketones. (Britannica.com) — When you consume a healthful and supportive diet complete with proteins, carbs, and fats, the carbohydrates are broken down into glucose. Glucose is actually blood sugar. Some of that glucose is transported and stored in muscle tissue as "glycogen." This is sort of the fuel in your fuel tank. That’s important to understand. Glycogen = Fuel. Glycogen is used to produce energy that fuels muscle contraction. ALL muscle contraction! Don’t think of muscle contraction only as exercise. Any movement requires the contraction of muscle, from blinking your eye to rising from bed in the morning. Without glycogen, you don’t have any fuel in the fuel tank. As long as you’re consuming carbs, you continue to re-fuel. You access and burn up stored glycogen, but quickly replace it with new muscle fuel. An understanding of that simple fact, that carbohydrates are the source of muscle fuel should raise an immediate red flag toward anything that suggests eliminating carbs. Once you understand the basic premise behind muscle glycogen, you should understand that the liver also plays a role in fuel storage. Some of the carbs that you eat ultimately wind up stored as liver glycogen. Think of the liver as sort of a "pump" for blood sugar. The brain burns more calories than any other organ in your body, and guess what it uses as its primary source of fuel. Glucose! Carbohydrates! As the brain results in the "burning" of blood glucose, the liver accesses its glycogen stores to keep blood glucose in adequate supply. Again, as you expend glycogen, the carbs that you ingest replete your supply. Atkins asks you to give up carbs. At first you’re doing just fine because you have glycogen stored. After a day or two, you’re using up your stored glycogen and you’re not replacing it. Your body shortly thereafter begins producing ketone bodies. I mentioned Atkins’ praise of a ketotic state already. Let’s look a bit further into this condition. Ketones are intermediaries in the process of metabolizing fat that are found in abnormal amounts in the blood and urine during periods of metabolic impairment. Give up all of your stored glycogen without replacing it and you’re likely going to be in such a state (Note: if you take in too many protein calories, it is possible to avoid carbs and never enter a state of ketosis rendering his low-carb ketosis theories useless). Atkins leads you to believe that the presence of these ketone bodies indicates ongoing fat release. He also assures you that they feed the brain. That is partially true. Here are just a few of the issues he neglects to address: 1. Extended periods of ketosis affect the chemical composition of the blood in such a way that you increase risk of cardiac incident (blood ketoacidosis). 2. In a state of ketoacidosis, carbon dioxide accumulates in the tissues. Oxygen delivery to the cells is impaired. This can lead to a wide range of disastrous consequences ranging from respiratory ailments to metabolic illness. 3. Toxic ammonia buildup resulting from severe cases of ketoacidosis can be lethal. I believe Atkins neglects to share that information with readers. He also neglects to tell you that the liver is called into play to "filter" the abnormal chemicals building up in the blood. This leads to a residual buildup of uric acid. Interestingly, this uric acid accumulation can lead to . . . formation of kidney stones! Kidney stones may be common among low carb dieters, but don’t mistake that for an indication that they’re normal! If all is working optimally, uric acid levels stay quite manageable, the kidneys continue to function normally, and you will likely never have stones accumulating in your urinary tract. (Thefitnesstruth.com) —— I have a lot of friends on low carb diets and for years now I’ve just had a feeling that something wasn’t right, after all, we all didn’t learn the 5 food groups in kindergarten just to throw it away later in life. Dr. Atkins supports the idea of placing your body in a state of Ketosis, in fact, this is what causes his diet to work.  After reading some of those articles above I have to ask "Why?".  Why would anyone want to place their body in this unhealthy state? Here’s a summary of Ketosis.  Your body starts using stored fat cells to provide fuel after the carbs are depleted.  The energy provided to the brain is only a little over 50% of the energy it needs to function, as opposed to the 100% provided by carbohydrates.  Ironically, people in this state of Ketosis don’t realize their reactions are being affected BECAUSE thier brain is operating too slowly to tell (Sorta like being unable to see the forest from the trees). Victims of starvation and insulin dependant diabetics who missed their insulin, are the ones commonly found in this state.  The first two words in the encyclopedia’s entry are "metobolic disorder".  Why then are people flocking to this diet if it requires placing your body in harm’s way? Ketosis is a bodies reaction and defense against illness.  Not only are diabetics found in this sate, anyone who has been sick for prolonged periods of time (Influenza, Bronchitis, etc.) also suffer form Ketosis, since they don’t eat as much as they should and force their body to go into this state of "emergency".  Why do you think people lose weight and look sickly thin when they’ve been sick for a while? I just can’t stress enough how unnatural this is.  It’s unnatural to artificailly place a healthy body in this sate of emergency when everything you need for a healthy living is right there in front of you. I could stand to lose a few pounds myself.  I was tempted to try a diet like this, but declined since it just didn’t sound right.  After reading what I have, I’m glad I did.  I hope some of you out there haven’t been completely suckered ito this diet by Atkins’ promise.  What he sells is a half-truth.  He lives by the phrase "A sucker is born every minute". Think about it, if he was doing this for the betterment of man-kind, why would he sell his products???

Response:

Wow Doc! Looks like you are selling a few products of your own! Is that "for the betterment of man-kind" or your pocketbook? —              :-)     LiLi                              (180/169/125)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Read these articles taken form various sites on the Web: ketosis – metabolic disorder marked by high levels of ketones in the tissues and body fluids, including blood and urine. There is less sugar than normal in the blood and less glycogen (the storage form of sugar) in the liver; fat accumulates in the liver, as do amino acids, from which the liver can produce more glycogen. Ketosis may be present in diabetes mellitus. When cattle are affected, they lose weight and produce less milk; dietary adjustment to meet the special requirements of individual cattle helps avoid the condition. (Britannica.com) Now this: With further fasting, lipolysis continues to increase for a few days before it plateaus at a high rate. A large proportion of elevated fatty acids are converted to the "ketone bodies" in the liver, a process enhanced by the high level of glucagon. The brain, previously an avid and fastidious consumer of glucose, begins to use ketones as well as glucose. Eventually, more than one-half of the brain’s daily metabolic energy needs are met by the ketone bodies, thus substantially diminishing the need for hepatic glucose production. The decrease in gluconeogenesis reduces the need for protein-derived amino acids, sparing muscle and making survival during prolonged fasting possible. Starvation is characterized by very low levels of insulin, elevated concentrations of glucagon, and very high concentration of circulating free fatty acids and ketones. (Britannica.com) — When you consume a healthful and supportive diet complete with proteins, carbs, and fats, the carbohydrates are broken down into glucose. Glucose is actually blood sugar. Some of that glucose is transported and stored in muscle tissue as "glycogen." This is sort of the fuel in your fuel tank. That’s important to understand. Glycogen = Fuel. Glycogen is used to produce energy that fuels muscle contraction. ALL muscle contraction! Don’t think of muscle contraction only as exercise. Any movement requires the contraction of muscle, from blinking your eye to rising from bed in the morning. Without glycogen, you don’t have any fuel in the fuel tank. As long as you’re consuming carbs, you continue to re-fuel. You access and burn up stored glycogen, but quickly replace it with new muscle fuel. An understanding of that simple fact, that carbohydrates are the source of muscle fuel should raise an immediate red flag toward anything that suggests eliminating carbs. Once you understand the basic premise behind muscle glycogen, you should understand that the liver also plays a role in fuel storage. Some of the carbs that you eat ultimately wind up stored as liver glycogen. Think of the liver as sort of a "pump" for blood sugar. The brain burns more calories than any other organ in your body, and guess what it uses as its primary source of fuel. Glucose! Carbohydrates! As the brain results in the "burning" of blood glucose, the liver accesses its glycogen stores to keep blood glucose in adequate supply. Again, as you expend glycogen, the carbs that you ingest replete your supply. Atkins asks you to give up carbs. At first you’re doing just fine because you have glycogen stored. After a day or two, you’re using up your stored glycogen and you’re not replacing it. Your body shortly thereafter begins producing ketone bodies. I mentioned Atkins’ praise of a ketotic state already. Let’s look a bit further into this condition. Ketones are intermediaries in the process of metabolizing fat that are found in abnormal amounts in the blood and urine during periods of metabolic impairment. Give up all of your stored glycogen without replacing it and you’re likely going to be in such a state (Note: if you take in too many protein calories, it is possible to avoid carbs and never enter a state of ketosis rendering his low-carb ketosis theories useless). Atkins leads you to believe that the presence of these ketone bodies indicates ongoing fat release. He also assures you that they feed the brain. That is partially true. Here are just a few of the issues he neglects to address: 1. Extended periods of ketosis affect the chemical composition of the blood in such a way that you increase risk of cardiac incident (blood ketoacidosis). 2. In a state of ketoacidosis, carbon dioxide accumulates in the tissues. Oxygen delivery to the cells is impaired. This can lead to a wide range of disastrous consequences ranging from respiratory ailments to metabolic illness. 3. Toxic ammonia buildup resulting from severe cases of ketoacidosis can be lethal. I believe Atkins neglects to share that information with readers. He also neglects to tell you that the liver is called into play to "filter" the abnormal chemicals building up in the blood. This leads to a residual buildup of uric acid. Interestingly, this uric acid accumulation can lead to . . . formation of kidney stones! Kidney stones may be common among low carb dieters, but don’t mistake that for an indication that they’re normal! If all is working optimally, uric acid levels stay quite manageable, the kidneys continue to function normally, and you will likely never have stones accumulating in your urinary tract. (Thefitnesstruth.com) —— I have a lot of friends on low carb diets and for years now I’ve just had a feeling that something wasn’t right, after all, we all didn’t learn the 5 food groups in kindergarten just to throw it away later in life. Dr. Atkins supports the idea of placing your body in a state of Ketosis, in fact, this is what causes his diet to work.  After reading some of those articles above I have to ask "Why?".  Why would anyone want to place their body in this unhealthy state? Here’s a summary of Ketosis.  Your body starts using stored fat cells to provide fuel after the carbs are depleted.  The energy provided to the brain is only a little over 50% of the energy it needs to function, as opposed to the 100% provided by carbohydrates.  Ironically, people in this state of Ketosis don’t realize their reactions are being affected BECAUSE thier brain is operating too slowly to tell (Sorta like being unable to see the forest from the trees). Victims of starvation and insulin dependant diabetics who missed their insulin, are the ones commonly found in this state.  The first two words in the encyclopedia’s entry are "metobolic disorder".  Why then are people flocking to this diet if it requires placing your body in harm’s way? Ketosis is a bodies reaction and defense against illness.  Not only are diabetics found in this sate, anyone who has been sick for prolonged periods of time (Influenza, Bronchitis, etc.) also suffer form Ketosis, since they don’t eat as much as they should and force their body to go into this state of "emergency".  Why do you think people lose weight and look sickly thin when they’ve been sick for a while? I just can’t stress enough how unnatural this is.  It’s unnatural to artificailly place a healthy body in this sate of emergency when everything you need for a healthy living is right there in front of you. I could stand to lose a few pounds myself.  I was tempted to try a diet like this, but declined since it just didn’t sound right.  After reading what I have, I’m glad I did.  I hope some of you out there haven’t been completely suckered ito this diet by Atkins’ promise.  What he sells is a half-truth.  He lives by the phrase "A sucker is born every minute". Think about it, if he was doing this for the betterment of man-kind, why would he sell his products???

Response:

Read these articles taken form various sites on the Web: ketosis – metabolic disorder marked by high levels of ketones in the tissues and body fluids, including blood and urine. There is less sugar than normal in the blood and less glycogen (the storage form of sugar) in the liver; fat accumulates in the liver, as do amino acids, from which the liver can produce more glycogen. Ketosis may be present in diabetes mellitus. When cattle are affected, they lose weight and produce less milk; dietary adjustment to meet the special requirements of individual cattle helps avoid the condition. (Britannica.com) Now this: With further fasting, lipolysis continues to increase for a few days before it plateaus at a high rate. A large proportion of elevated fatty acids are converted to the "ketone bodies" in the liver, a process enhanced by the high level of glucagon. The brain, previously an avid and fastidious consumer of glucose, begins to use ketones as well as glucose. Eventually, more than one-half of the brain’s daily metabolic energy needs are met by the ketone bodies, thus substantially diminishing the need for hepatic glucose production. The decrease in gluconeogenesis reduces the need for protein-derived amino acids, sparing muscle and making survival during prolonged fasting possible. Starvation is characterized by very low levels of insulin, elevated concentrations of glucagon, and very high concentration of circulating free fatty acids and ketones. (Britannica.com) — When you consume a healthful and supportive diet complete with proteins, carbs, and fats, the carbohydrates are broken down into glucose. Glucose is actually blood sugar. Some of that glucose is transported and stored in muscle tissue as "glycogen." This is sort of the fuel in your fuel tank. That’s important to understand. Glycogen = Fuel. Glycogen is used to produce energy that fuels muscle contraction. ALL muscle contraction! Don’t think of muscle contraction only as exercise. Any movement requires the contraction of muscle, from blinking your eye to rising from bed in the morning. Without glycogen, you don’t have any fuel in the fuel tank. As long as you’re consuming carbs, you continue to re-fuel. You access and burn up stored glycogen, but quickly replace it with new muscle fuel. An understanding of that simple fact, that carbohydrates are the source of muscle fuel should raise an immediate red flag toward anything that suggests eliminating carbs. Once you understand the basic premise behind muscle glycogen, you should understand that the liver also plays a role in fuel storage. Some of the carbs that you eat ultimately wind up stored as liver glycogen. Think of the liver as sort of a "pump" for blood sugar. The brain burns more calories than any other organ in your body, and guess what it uses as its primary source of fuel. Glucose! Carbohydrates! As the brain results in the "burning" of blood glucose, the liver accesses its glycogen stores to keep blood glucose in adequate supply. Again, as you expend glycogen, the carbs that you ingest replete your supply. Atkins asks you to give up carbs. At first you’re doing just fine because you have glycogen stored. After a day or two, you’re using up your stored glycogen and you’re not replacing it. Your body shortly thereafter begins producing ketone bodies. I mentioned Atkins’ praise of a ketotic state already. Let’s look a bit further into this condition. Ketones are intermediaries in the process of metabolizing fat that are found in abnormal amounts in the blood and urine during periods of metabolic impairment. Give up all of your stored glycogen without replacing it and you’re likely going to be in such a state (Note: if you take in too many protein calories, it is possible to avoid carbs and never enter a state of ketosis rendering his low-carb ketosis theories useless). Atkins leads you to believe that the presence of these ketone bodies indicates ongoing fat release. He also assures you that they feed the brain. That is partially true. Here are just a few of the issues he neglects to address: 1. Extended periods of ketosis affect the chemical composition of the blood in such a way that you increase risk of cardiac incident (blood ketoacidosis). 2. In a state of ketoacidosis, carbon dioxide accumulates in the tissues. Oxygen delivery to the cells is impaired. This can lead to a wide range of disastrous consequences ranging from respiratory ailments to metabolic illness. 3. Toxic ammonia buildup resulting from severe cases of ketoacidosis can be lethal. I believe Atkins neglects to share that information with readers. He also neglects to tell you that the liver is called into play to "filter" the abnormal chemicals building up in the blood. This leads to a residual buildup of uric acid. Interestingly, this uric acid accumulation can lead to . . . formation of kidney stones! Kidney stones may be common among low carb dieters, but don’t mistake that for an indication that they’re normal! If all is working optimally, uric acid levels stay quite manageable, the kidneys continue to function normally, and you will likely never have stones accumulating in your urinary tract. (Thefitnesstruth.com) —— I have a lot of friends on low carb diets and for years now I’ve just had a feeling that something wasn’t right, after all, we all didn’t learn the 5 food groups in kindergarten just to throw it away later in life. Dr. Atkins supports the idea of placing your body in a state of Ketosis, in fact, this is what causes his diet to work.  After reading some of those articles above I have to ask "Why?".  Why would anyone want to place their body in this unhealthy state? Here’s a summary of Ketosis.  Your body starts using stored fat cells to provide fuel after the carbs are depleted.  The energy provided to the brain is only a little over 50% of the energy it needs to function, as opposed to the 100% provided by carbohydrates.  Ironically, people in this state of Ketosis don’t realize their reactions are being affected BECAUSE thier brain is operating too slowly to tell (Sorta like being unable to see the forest from the trees). Victims of starvation and insulin dependant diabetics who missed their insulin, are the ones commonly found in this state.  The first two words in the encyclopedia’s entry are "metobolic disorder".  Why then are people flocking to this diet if it requires placing your body in harm’s way? Ketosis is a bodies reaction and defense against illness.  Not only are diabetics found in this sate, anyone who has been sick for prolonged periods of time (Influenza, Bronchitis, etc.) also suffer form Ketosis, since they don’t eat as much as they should and force their body to go into this state of "emergency".  Why do you think people lose weight and look sickly thin when they’ve been sick for a while? I just can’t stress enough how unnatural this is.  It’s unnatural to artificailly place a healthy body in this sate of emergency when everything you need for a healthy living is right there in front of you. I could stand to lose a few pounds myself.  I was tempted to try a diet like this, but declined since it just didn’t sound right.  After reading what I have, I’m glad I did.  I hope some of you out there haven’t been completely suckered ito this diet by Atkins’ promise.  What he sells is a half-truth.  He lives by the phrase "A sucker is born every minute". Think about it, if he was doing this for the betterment of man-kind, why would he sell his products???

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Question:

<Posted and Mailed One thing that my therp threw at me that was hard to accept (okay…still is), but I know is true, is that we cannot control the way we feel, only how we act because of our feelings. Yeah, it’s kind of warped sounding in a way, but it is true. For instance, I can’t stop myself from feeling I’m a completely useless turd, BUT, hopefully I can stop acting like a completely useless turd until I finally (maybe) feel differently.

This is similar to what I call "acting you way into a feeling". It is far easier said than done — particularly when you’re very depressed. But for example lets say that you are mildly depressed and don’t want to go to a party that otherwise you would want to go to. But you are going to make the effort to go anyway in spite of how you feel. You decide that you are going to act like you are having a great time. So you put on your best party grin and start mingling and talking. Pretty soon you find that you are no longer acting a role — but you are really enjoying yourself. This technique works better with situational depression than with bipolar depression. It’s much harder to fool neurotransmitters!

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permanently in the ether: I wasn’t aware that Buspar was so short acting. I take 30 mg at bedtime, it used to be 15mg am and pm, but the am dose was definitely making me sluggish. Of course, it could have been the paxil that was knocking me out. I have no idea how effective the Buspar is; because I take so damned many drugs, I never know what is what.

The drowsiness you describe does sound like what happened to my MIL her first few weeks on buspar–then she adjusted–but she does take a nap after lunch and sometimes tries to take on after breakfast. Buspar has made a world of difference for her.  Before buspar, she refused to go to any activities–and kept asking ppl to take her home. After a couple weeks on buspar–she turned around. These drugs have so many different effects on different ppl.  When I was in college I took a pharmacology class that was a survey of all drugs, from caffeine to heroin to thorazine.  One of the first things covered was the LD 50 and the ED 50. LD 50 is the lethal dose for 50 ppl out of 100.  That means the lethal dose stated on your insert will kill 50 out of 100 ppl, of the  50 ppl left, some will die at a lower dose and some will not die at the LD 50 level.  I dont like those odds. ED 50 is the effective dose for 50 out of 100 ppl.  So if a dr prescribes a med based on the medical information provided, you only have a 50/50 chance of the drug even being an effective dose for what you are trying to change.  You also have a chance (if you are one of the 50 ppl that the LD 50 doesnt work for) of the drug being either too strong or too weak for the benefit you are after. I find this whole medical crapola to really be one big game of Russian Roulette.  JMAO.    Yes, I have been having a bad time, but it is getting better. Of course, I have taken a fatalist attitude toward my problems. There is nothing I can do about it, so if they shut off my cable, internet, and telephone; oh well. I don’t think they can shut off my electric because it is my heat and a/c, and with my asthma I must have a/c. Of course, many times in the past, I have discovered the hard way that they can do things to me that I thought they couldn’t.

Please contact the power company if you are not already on lifeline service.  If you are not on lifeline service–they can cut you off. Even my kid got lifeline and he is fairly normal.   Also, I thought cable companies were  required to provide a basic economy package for ppl with low incomes?  Maybe it is a california thing–but here it is the law. Nancy in CA All thoughts posted here, unless otherwise cited, are my opinion based on my research and my experience.  Everyone should do their own research and make their own choices based on their situation. Please visit the new fms-guaifenisin support group at alt.med.fibromyalgia.guaifenisin Please visit the new moderated recovery group at alt.med.fibromyalgia.recovery.info Please visit the new grandparents ng, alt.talk.grandparents. To respond via email, delete "Z" from my addy.

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hi…me again! for what it is worth, i find it interesting that you get sluggish from buspar…when they had me on that stuff i felt like i had water flowing through my ears constantly, and i was always wired…i never slept. i went on xanax and zoloft after that and even though the zoloft made me that way for around a week, i got over it. but buspar never agreed with my system.(made me want to call the phone company to thank them for billing me…ugh.)…bruce

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Buspar 30mg at night (it knocks me on my butt) sounds like you made some progress today. I’m curious about the buspar.  I’ve been watching sci.med.pharmacy for a while because someone asked about whether or not buspar could be prepared in a long acting form.  My MIL in a nursing home from a stroke takes buspar for stroke related anxiety.

That is a good g, eh? Hospitals and nursing homes do not like buspar because it has a short half life and therefore requires more frequent dosing.

Yes…3 times a day. I also understand that is is much less addicting, or tolerance building, I should say, than ativan or valium.

Yes it is. So, I am wondering why you would take a short acting anti-anxiety medication at bedtime?  For sleep alone?  I am still new here and am just getting ppl straight–did I recall you are having a bad time right now? And now I’m wondering–if you take buspar at bedtime–it wears off in the middle of the night–sending you into the depression during the day that you have?  I may be totally off base–but this is a thought that occured to me. And I have been given Lorazepam (ativan) for anxiety and maybe buspar might be a more controllable choice for me.  I have never used up a script–they go out of date on me when the bottle has been half used.

Peace,

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Hey Ralph you think the Buspar actually works? I was kin a thinking of blowing off refilling mine this month. The freaking prescription is $80 to refill…….anyway. Maybe the therapist will help? Hey its possible. Your not useless you provide a lot of help to us, and personally I like reading your posts. Hopefully your depression will lift soon. ((((((((((((Ralph)))))))))))

Dear Robert,         I don’t know about the buspar, myself. It seems to help me sleep when I have a lot of anxiety. I also seem to forget to take it, a lot. I never forget to take my Prozac. Boy, am I grateful that my Medicare HMO has a RX plan. Without it, my meds would be over $700.00 per month. I think what I am trying to say is that Buspar helps when I am really agitated/anxious and can’t sleep; but I question the usefulness of it day in and day out.         Thank you for your kind words. Yes, you are right, I am not totally useless. But lets just say that my usefulness is severely impaired by this damned condition. When I realize that I haven’t had the ability to so much as keep my apartment clean for over 3 years now; to do the simple things that most people take for granted…. but hey, I am sure that I am not alone in this.         Hope you are having a great day.  Hugs back to you Robert, Ralph

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Buspar 30mg at night (it knocks me on my butt)

Hi Ralph– sounds like you made some progress today. I’m curious about the buspar.  I’ve been watching sci.med.pharmacy for a while because someone asked about whether or not buspar could be prepared in a long acting form.  My MIL in a nursing home from a stroke takes buspar for stroke related anxiety. Hospitals and nursing homes do not like buspar because it has a short half life and therefore requires more frequent dosing. I also understand that is is much less addicting, or tolerance building, I should say, than ativan or valium. So, I am wondering why you would take a short acting anti-anxiety medication at bedtime?  For sleep alone?  I am still new here and am just getting ppl straight–did I recall you are having a bad time right now?  And now I’m wondering–if you take buspar at bedtime–it wears off in the middle of the night–sending you into the depression during the day that you have?  I may be totally off base–but this is a thought that occured to me. And I have been given Lorazepam (ativan) for anxiety and maybe buspar might be a more controllable choice for me.  I have never used up a script–they go out of date on me when the bottle has been half used. May your good days be many and your bad days fade away, Nancy To respond via email, delete "nospam" from my addy. Please visit the new moderated recovery group at alt.med.fibromyalgia.recovery.info Also, check out the guafenisin group at alt.med.fibromyalgia.guaifenesin Please visit the new grandparents group, alt.talk.grandparents.

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I wasn’t aware that Buspar was so short acting. I take 30 mg at bedtime, it used to be 15mg am and pm, but the am dose was definitely making me sluggish. Of course, it could have been the paxil that was knocking me out. I have no idea how effective the Buspar is; because I take so damned many drugs, I never know what is what.         Yes, I have been having a bad time, but it is getting better. Of course, I have taken a fatalist attitude toward my problems. There is nothing I can do about it, so if they shut off my cable, internet, and telephone; oh well. I don’t think they can shut off my electric because it is my heat and a/c, and with my asthma I must have a/c. Of course, many times in the past, I have discovered the hard way that they can do things to me that I thought they couldn’t.         I have "faith" that somehow I will get bailed out of this mess; but if not, there is nothing I can do. Oh well, no sense me working myself up. Hope you are having a good day,  Ralph – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Buspar 30mg at night (it knocks me on my butt) Hi Ralph– sounds like you made some progress today. I’m curious about the buspar.  I’ve been watching sci.med.pharmacy for a while because someone asked about whether or not buspar could be prepared in a long acting form.  My MIL in a nursing home from a stroke takes buspar for stroke related anxiety. Hospitals and nursing homes do not like buspar because it has a short half life and therefore requires more frequent dosing. I also understand that is is much less addicting, or tolerance building, I should say, than ativan or valium. So, I am wondering why you would take a short acting anti-anxiety medication at bedtime?  For sleep alone?  I am still new here and am just getting ppl straight–did I recall you are having a bad time right now?  And now I’m wondering–if you take buspar at bedtime–it wears off in the middle of the night–sending you into the depression during the day that you have?  I may be totally off base–but this is a thought that occured to me. And I have been given Lorazepam (ativan) for anxiety and maybe buspar might be a more controllable choice for me.  I have never used up a script–they go out of date on me when the bottle has been half used. May your good days be many and your bad days fade away, Nancy To respond via email, delete "nospam" from my addy. Please visit the new moderated recovery group at alt.med.fibromyalgia.recovery.info Also, check out the guafenisin group at alt.med.fibromyalgia.guaifenesin Please visit the new grandparents group, alt.talk.grandparents.

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Saw my PDoc today. He isn’t happy about my depressions. He uped my Prozac to 30mg for 7 days then 40mg Still 400 neurontin 4X a day Welbutrin 300mg AM 150mg PM Buspar 30mg at night (it knocks me on my butt) I am also going to get a therapist for the purpose of learning how to deal with my life. Hopefully I will learn some tricks to doing simple things like the laundry, cleaning the house, remembering to take my meds, and surviving being dirt poor and useless. <grin I don’t want to do any of this visualization crap, or how do you feel about how you feel about how you feel about. I want this is what you do, this is how you do it, and maybe you will actually have clean clothes, clean dishes, and dinner on the table. Hugs, Ralph

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So how do you FEEL about this? hahahaha love, Amy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Saw my PDoc today. He isn’t happy about my depressions. He uped my Prozac to 30mg for 7 days then 40mg Still 400 neurontin 4X a day Welbutrin 300mg AM 150mg PM Buspar 30mg at night (it knocks me on my butt) I am also going to get a therapist for the purpose of learning how to deal with my life. Hopefully I will learn some tricks to doing simple things like the laundry, cleaning the house, remembering to take my meds, and surviving being dirt poor and useless. <grin I don’t want to do any of this visualization crap, or how do you feel about how you feel about how you feel about. I want this is what you do, this is how you do it, and maybe you will actually have clean clothes, clean dishes, and dinner on the table. Hugs, Ralph

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How do I feel? With my hands! How do you feel? <tease Hugs from the serial hugger,  ralph – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So how do you FEEL about this? hahahaha love, Amy Saw my PDoc today. He isn’t happy about my depressions. He uped my Prozac to 30mg for 7 days then 40mg Still 400 neurontin 4X a day Welbutrin 300mg AM 150mg PM Buspar 30mg at night (it knocks me on my butt) I am also going to get a therapist for the purpose of learning how to deal with my life. Hopefully I will learn some tricks to doing simple things like the laundry, cleaning the house, remembering to take my meds, and surviving being dirt poor and useless. <grin I don’t want to do any of this visualization crap, or how do you feel about how you feel about how you feel about. I want this is what you do, this is how you do it, and maybe you will actually have clean clothes, clean dishes, and dinner on the table. Hugs, Ralph

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You got a deal. Now, just how do we get you here? Tie me down? Hmmmm, whatever do you have in mind? <tease Hugs from the serial hugger, ralph – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Wish I lived close by, Ralph.  I’d drop by, do your laundry, clean your house, organize your meds.  Then I’d tie you down and relay 3 or so decades of my life, viola!!–you have thus served a function–eliminate useless.  Dirt poor?  Sorry, sport, miracles belong to the manic and she ain’t here today. Houston Saw my PDoc today. He isn’t happy about my depressions. He uped my Prozac to 30mg for 7 days then 40mg Still 400 neurontin 4X a day Welbutrin 300mg AM 150mg PM Buspar 30mg at night (it knocks me on my butt) I am also going to get a therapist for the purpose of learning how to deal with my life. Hopefully I will learn some tricks to doing simple things like the laundry, cleaning the house, remembering to take my meds, and surviving being dirt poor and useless. <grin I don’t want to do any of this visualization crap, or how do you feel about how you feel about how you feel about. I want this is what you do, this is how you do it, and maybe you will actually have clean clothes, clean dishes, and dinner on the table. Hugs, Ralph

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Question:

This is nonsense.  Being an introvert is a personality trait which is neither inherently good nor inherently bad. -snip and rearange- It’s not introversion that causes depression, it’s listening to all the people telling you that something is wrong with you for not wanting their company. Um, excuse me, but did you actually read this post, or did you see the word "introvert" and then write a lot of stuff?  Where did anyone say anything about this personality trait being good or bad?  There’s absolutely nothing here that says that.

I liked Mason’s response, but I agree it seemed not really in direct response to your post.  If I had to take a guess at it, I would suggest that maybe Mason is still hearing people tell him he should be more extroverted, and so he is taking a moment out of his day to tell those voices to "shove off".  I suppose the fact that these voices also are, or are not, your voice is probably more relevent to you than him. Just my 2 cents of course.  Mainly relevent to me and my voices really. Sincerely Stewart — The Metaphor Man  *and*  The Great Defender of the Self (remove the SPAMBLOCK) Please send me an e-mail copy of your posted response.

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Nina wrote And maybe it’s useful to stop, to focus, to think "this moment.  now.  just this experience, this moment, now." But what if every moment of every day of my life, my body hurts, because I have Essential Tremor? What if this moment sucks, because I feel lonely, and weak, and sick, and tired, and my room is a wreck? What if the moments are bad? What then?

Oddly enough, IMHO, you just go with it.   Sincerely Stewart Hiding out in the shitty present to avoid dealing with the shitty future.  :-) — The Metaphor Man  *and*  The Great Defender of the Self (remove the SPAMBLOCK) Please send me an e-mail copy of your posted response.

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"this moment.  now.  just this experience, this moment, now."

But what if every moment of every day of my life, my body hurts, because I have Essential Tremor? What if this moment sucks, because I feel lonely, and weak, and sick, and tired, and my room is a wreck? What if the moments are bad? What then? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Nina, stuck inside on a snowy day, this moment, now!

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I lean far to the introvert side of the scale, of course.

This is nonsense.  Being an introvert is a personality trait which is neither inherently good nor inherently bad.  It is also completely different from depression.  There are extremely introverted people who bubble along happily and live healthy and productive and happy lives, who get married and have good friends.  It is a temptation to get depressed if you listen to the constant crock of shit criticism from your mother onward, about how you "ought" to be doing such-and-such and you’re abnormal for not having more friends and so on. I am really happy being by myself.  I do have a girlfriend and other friends but I no longer force myself to go to parties and just stay home unless I really want to go.  I reached an age of realization, and what a blessing it was to understand that I could simply tune out other people trying to set some sort of compulsory social interation standard for me.  If they "needed" other people all the time, fine.  I’ll do  whatever I damn well please, thank you very much. It’s not introversion that causes depression, it’s listening to all the people telling you that something is wrong with you for not wanting their company. –  Mason Barge "If this is coffee, please bring me some tea.  If this is tea, please bring me some coffee."  – Abraham Lincoln

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Ack. "Keep your eyes on the ball", was what my coach told me long ago, and it still works! DG

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I lean far to the introvert side of the scale, of course.

Me too Which made my bad game worse, etc.  So I started thinking:  focus.  It’s about now. It’s about this moment.  Life is only this moment, in some sense. Anchor yourself to now.

This is interesting, Nina. Things have been better for me lately, and when I read your post I realized that it was because I HAVE been doing this, focusing on the moment rather than the past or the future… Obviously, you can take this to its logical extreme, but that’s pretty unlikely for me.  But I see this kind of behavior in a lot of us, brooding on the future and the past until we achieve immobility.  And maybe it’s useful to stop, to focus, to think "this moment.  now.  just this experience, this moment, now."

I have spent too much time brooding on the past. Obviously, I am never going to forget Jim and the love we had, but slowly I am moving away from the constant awareness that he is no longer in my life. I find it a little  sad that I actually let the monthly anniversary of his death slip past me last month, but it is also a good thing that I was not planning what I should do to remember him on this day. Patricia {who had to count back to find that he died nine months ago…}

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Nina, <snipped outstanding post Excellent idea, and great food for thought!  Thank you for reminding me why I enjoy reading ASD so much!  In the moment, now, it’s snowy outside, but I’m home from work and having a wonderful time reading this newsgroup.  It *is* hard to remember to live in the moment sometimes. But I think this way of thinking helps. Holly

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what i remember about this is that introverts tend to have more brain wave activity than extroverts, so they seek less external stimuli. to put this in another way, so no one can say "are you insulting ______ ?": introverts tend to be "overstimulated" in relation to extroverts, who tend to seek out activities in order to achieve more stimulation.

Oooo, this is interesting.  I am thinking of the books by Donna Williams called; Nobody, nowhere, (1992);  Somebody, somewhere, (1994); and Like color to the blind,  (1996).  She is "autistic", and describes what her life is like.  To say that she experiences what others would deem "normal" as somehow an overwhelming overstimulation, would be an understatement. Interesting stuff. Sincerely Stewart — The Metaphor Man  *and*  The Great Defender of the Self (remove the SPAMBLOCK) Please send me an e-mail copy of your posted response.

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One of the differences between so-called introverts and extroverts, in a clinical sense, is that extroverts tend to live in the moment while introverts tend to live in the past and future.  I lean far to the introvert side of the scale, of course. That’s (I think) because we tend to think of introverts and extroverts in what I’d call the "social" sense– like extroverts are gregarious, outgoing people, and introverts are shy, solitary people.  However, that’s only a tiny piece of what these terms mean in a psychological sense– I learned this from my sister the psychiatrist some time ago, and I’ve never forgotten it, because it really highlights a big behavioral difference between certain people.  See also the paragraph that I kept from my original post, above.

Yeah, odd as it sounds, I bet one can even be a socially outgoing and gregarious introvert.  I am thinking here about say someone who physicall appears to be the life of the party, a person with friends by the dozens, but who actually "lives" inside, always feeling somehow disconnected from the party around them. But I am sure few people here on ASD would recognize that odd condition.   Just kidding of course. Sincerely Stewart — The Metaphor Man  *and*  The Great Defender of the Self (remove the SPAMBLOCK) Please send me an e-mail copy of your posted response.

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Just my 2 cents of course.  Mainly relevent to me and my voices really.

Stewart, honey, you’re hearing voices? pavanne, concerned — For more information about this service, send e-mail to:

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Something I’ve been thinking about. One of the differences between so-called introverts and extroverts, in a clinical sense, is that extroverts tend to live in the moment while introverts tend to live in the past and future.  I lean far to the introvert side of the scale, of course.

It’s funny, in person I appear to be quite extroverted.  I’ve long ago gotten over the crippling shyness that scarred my teen years; I’m quite adept at mingling and making small talk; I have no fear of social situations; I’m well read enough to be able to converse with almost anyone.  And yet I suffer from the same problem of living in the past and future, and not in the moment. And one of the things that’s been troubling me most is my inability to enjoy much of anything these days.  I start thinking about doing something, and then I think of all the reasons I shouldn’t, and I do nothing.  

The story of my life, Nina.   This all really struck me last week when I was playing racquetball last week, something that I’m awful at but really really enjoy. Instead of enjoying what I was doing, instead of focusing on the game, I was just awash in misery, thinking of other things.  Which made my bad game worse, etc.  So I started thinking:  focus.  It’s about now. It’s about this moment.  Life is only this moment, in some sense. Anchor yourself to now. And it really helped.  Obviously, you can take this to its logical extreme, but that’s pretty unlikely for me.  But I see this kind of behavior in a lot of us, brooding on the future and the past until we achieve immobility.  And maybe it’s useful to stop, to focus, to think "this moment.  now.  just this experience, this moment, now."

I felt like these two paragraphs were aimed at me, they are so very apropos to my situation this year.   John

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