Question:

Ted said in this very newsgroup… it is the SAME stuff you have been taking, and the price is now only TEN times the price people outside the US pay.

We can only hope that competition will bring the benefits to our US cousins that we Europeans have. Generic Metformin, on a three doses a day basis (1500mg total dose) is sold to the British NHS at a basic price of $4 a week or thereabouts. That is the price the NHS pays; anyone not able to supply at that price does not get used. So therefore as many manufacturers are supplying at that price there is no reason why it should not be available at around those prices in the US. I have had Israeli manufactured Metformin in the past; supplied at that price. Absolutely perfect generic Metformin. The manufacturers would not be selling at the UK price if it was unprofitable. This is not gloating BTW. It really sickens me that our good US friends are being taken for a ride. Ratty — Type 2 since 93 Can I get a new pancreas under the warranty? This one’s burnt out…. http://www.asduk.org.uk our shiny new website!

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it is the SAME stuff you have been taking, and the price is now only TEN times the price people outside the US pay. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just got back from the pharmacy where I discovered that my insurance company forced a switch to the new generic metformin. Anyone have any experience with it yet? Any different (or new) side effects that I should be aware of? I still have about 20 days of the old stuff available, so I’d like to be forewarned if possible. Thanks in advance.

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Bill Josephs said in this very newsgroup… I just got back from the pharmacy where I discovered that my insurance company forced a switch to the new generic metformin. Anyone have any experience with it yet? Any different (or new) side effects that I should be aware of? I still have about 20 days of the old stuff available, so I’d like to be forewarned if possible. Thanks in advance.

The only real meaningful difference is the name. Metformin is the lab name of the compound that Glucophage contains. The active ingredients are identical. Ratty — email: flyingrat at totalise.co.uk giggle: http://www.users.totalise.co.uk/~royellor/ spam: kiss my ar*e

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I just got back from the pharmacy where I discovered that my insurance company forced a switch to the new generic metformin. Anyone have any experience with it yet? Any different (or new) side effects that I should be aware of? I still have about 20 days of the old stuff available, so I’d like to be forewarned if possible. Thanks in advance.

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Question:

Since I started Singulair 10mg 1x tablets 2 weeks ago, I get headaches almost daily.  (Didn’t have that with Accolate).  I have tried advil and tylenol but neither seems to get rid of the headache completely. Sometimes the headache is on one side only—never had that before. For those with the same sideaffect, what are you taking that seems to work on these headaches?   Thanks, Lynn

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If you are getting headaches from the Singulair you need to call your doctor and tell him. He may advice you to quit taking it. Any side effect of a drug should be reported to your doctor at once!!  Janice – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Since I started Singulair 10mg 1x tablets 2 weeks ago, I get headaches almost daily.  (Didn’t have that with Accolate).  I have tried advil and tylenol but neither seems to get rid of the headache completely. Sometimes the headache is on one side only—never had that before. For those with the same sideaffect, what are you taking that seems to work on these headaches? Thanks, Lynn

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Headaches are a known side affect with Singulair.  My patient information guide shows that and the Dr. has confirmed that.  It is a side affect I am willing to deal with so long as my asthma is controlled.  I have cough asthma and I have tried just about every drug combo/type in the past 2.5 years with no real relief.  So far, I am getting slowly better on the singuliar with Flovent 110 2puffs 2x and albuterol as needed.  At this point I just want to know what works to relieve the headaches and if they will taper off as I adjust to the Singulair over time.  From what I have been told, the answer so far seems to be yes.   Thanks for your reply, Lynn – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you are getting headaches from the Singulair you need to call your doctor and tell him. He may advice you to quit taking it. Any side effect of a drug should be reported to your doctor at once!!  Janice Since I started Singulair 10mg 1x tablets 2 weeks ago, I get headaches almost daily.  (Didn’t have that with Accolate).  I have tried advil and tylenol but neither seems to get rid of the headache completely. Sometimes the headache is on one side only—never had that before. For those with the same sideaffect, what are you taking that seems to work on these headaches? Thanks, Lynn

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Lynn, When you have to start taking meds for the side-effects, there is cause to be concerned.  What the headaches are from??  I tried Singulair and am considering it again (I still have 1/2 bottle left), but I did have flare-up while I was on it and went back to Accolate.  I’m not noticing any side effects, otherwise I’d think twice about continuing. Better report that to the doc too. Since I started Singulair 10mg 1x tablets 2 weeks ago, I get headaches

almost daily.  (Didn’t have that with Accolate).  I have tried advil and tylenol but neither seems to get rid of the headache completely. Sometimes the headache is on one side only—never had that before. For those with the same sideaffect, what are you taking that seems to work on these headaches?   Thanks, Lynn<< Sue M.

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The Prescribing Information shows that headaches with Singular are not significently greater than with placebo. See: www.singulair.com http://www.merck.com/!!vmIKI0y_2vmIKL0ZbE/product/usa/singulair/presc… Adverse Effects "Headache   18.4% with Singulair,  18.1% with placebo" So its rather unlikely that Singulair is the cause of your headaches. However you could try stopping Singulair for a few days to see, with your doctor’s permission. Headache is a known side effects of albuterol. See www.rxlist.com Ellis – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Headaches are a known side affect with Singulair.  My patient information guide shows that and the Dr. has confirmed that.  It is a side affect I am willing to deal with so long as my asthma is controlled.  I have cough asthma and I have tried just about every drug combo/type in the past 2.5 years with no real relief.  So far, I am getting slowly better on the singuliar with Flovent 110 2puffs 2x and albuterol as needed.  At this point I just want to know what works to relieve the headaches and if they will taper off as I adjust to the Singulair over time.  From what I have been told, the answer so far seems to be yes. Thanks for your reply, Lynn If you are getting headaches from the Singulair you need to call your doctor and tell him. He may advice you to quit taking it. Any side effect of a drug should be reported to your doctor at once!!  Janice Since I started Singulair 10mg 1x tablets 2 weeks ago, I get headaches almost daily.  (Didn’t have that with Accolate).  I have tried advil and tylenol but neither seems to get rid of the headache completely. Sometimes the headache is on one side only—never had that before. For those with the same sideaffect, what are you taking that seems to work on these headaches? Thanks, Lynn

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -The Prescribing Information shows that headaches with Singular are not significently greater than with placebo. See: www.singulair.com http://www.merck.com/!!vmIKI0y_2vmIKL0ZbE/product/usa/singulair/presc… fo/pi.html Adverse Effects "Headache   18.4% with Singulair,  18.1% with placebo" So its rather unlikely that Singulair is the cause of your headaches. However you could try stopping Singulair for a few days to see, with your doctor’s permission. Headache is a known side effects of albuterol. See www.rxlist.com

went to that site and searched albuterol…it claims that for inhalation aersols, Proventil is "not rated equivalent" to an equal dose of Ventolin. I just got switched TO Ventolin from Proventil, so I’d like to know from someone who hopefully does: what’s the difference? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Ellis Headaches are a known side affect with Singulair.  My patient information guide shows that and the Dr. has confirmed that.  It is a side affect I am willing to deal with so long as my asthma is controlled.  I have cough asthma and I have tried just about every drug combo/type in the past 2.5 years with no real relief.  So far, I am getting slowly better on the singuliar with Flovent 110 2puffs 2x and albuterol as needed.  At this point I just want to know what works to relieve the headaches and if they will taper off as I adjust to the Singulair over time.  From what I have been told, the answer so far seems to be yes. Thanks for your reply, Lynn If you are getting headaches from the Singulair you need to call your doctor and tell him. He may advice you to quit taking it. Any side effect of a drug should be reported to your doctor at once!!  Janice Since I started Singulair 10mg 1x tablets 2 weeks ago, I get headaches almost daily.  (Didn’t have that with Accolate).  I have tried advil and tylenol but neither seems to get rid of the headache completely. Sometimes the headache is on one side only—never had that before. For those with the same sideaffect, what are you taking that seems to work on these headaches? Thanks, Lynn

– Emily …delete SPAMSTOP to email.

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Headache is a known side effects of albuterol. See www.rxlist.com went to that site and searched albuterol…it claims that for inhalation aersols, Proventil is "not rated equivalent" to an equal dose of Ventolin. I just got switched TO Ventolin from Proventil, so I’d like to know from someone who hopefully does: what’s the difference? Ellis ——cut——- — Emily

Hmmmm. Good question. I thought Ventolin and Proventil (and generic albuterol/salbutamol) MDI’s were equivalent. But you are correct, the site says not only are the MDI’s not equivalent but other forms of albuterol (powder, pills) are not equivalent. However, Ventolin is made by Glaxo of England, and in the US is also supplied as Proventil by Schering under license from Glaxo. I doubt that the differences are significent, and I think if anything that Ventolin is the more reliable product. I think I did see a post that said Schering uses a different pressure in their propellant, but its interesting the other versions of albuterol are also not equivalent; maybe absorbed at a different rate. Ventolin and Proventil both have the same amount of albuterol, 90 mcg/puff at the mouthpiece [100 mcg/puff at nozzle]. My HMO provides generic albuterol MDI’s, Dey. It seems to work as well as Ventolin or Proventil, both of which I have used. http://www.rxlist.com/cgi/generic/albut1.htm albuterol Excerpt: "How Supplied – Rated Therapeutically Equivalent: Aerosol, Metered – Inhalation – 0.09 mg/inh        17 gm, 200 inh                    $22.20                          Ventolin, Refill, Glaxo Wellcome                                                    00173-0321-98        17 gm, 200 inh                    $24.08                          Ventolin, Inhaler, Glaxo Wellcome                                                    00173-0321-88 How Supplied – Not Rated Equivalent: Aerosol, Metered – Inhalation – 0.09 mg/inh        17 gm              $22.20                   Proventil, Schering                                  00085-0614-03        17 gm              $24.09                   Proventil, Schering                                  00085-0614-02 Capsule, Gelatin – Inhalation – 200 mcg        100’s             $24.08                   Ventolin, Rotacaps, Refill, Glaxo Wellcome                                                    00173-0389-02        100’s             $28.42                   Ventolin, Rotacaps, Glaxo Wellcome                                                    00173-0389-01        24’s             $19.51                   Ventolin Rotacaps, Glaxo Wellcome                                                    00173-0389-03 Powder – -        100 gm              $135.00                    Albuterol Sulfate, Elge                                        58298-0509-01        100 gm              $187.50                    Albuterol, Paddock Labs                                        00574-0512-01        25 gm              $52.50                    Albuterol, Paddock Labs                                        00574-0512-25 Tablet, Coated, Sustained Action – Oral – 4 mg        100’s             $63.24                    Volmax, Muro Pharm                                          00451-0398-50        100’s             $63.31                    Proventil Repetabs, Schering                                          00085-0431-02        100’s             $79.28                    Proventil Repetabs, Schering                                          00085-0431-04        500’s             $307.10                    Proventil, Schering                                          00085-0431-03        60’s             $35.67                    Volmax, Muro Pharm                                          00451-0398-00 Tablet, Coated, Sustained Action – Oral – 8 mg        100’s             $117.42                    Volmax, Muro Pharm                                    00451-0399-50        60’s             $63.60                    Volmax, Muro Pharm                                    00451-0399-00" Copyright 1997 – Mosby Inc. – Mosby’s GenRx

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Since I started Singulair 10mg 1x tablets 2 weeks ago, I get headaches almost daily.  (Didn’t have that with Accolate).  I have tried advil and tylenol but neither seems to get rid of the headache completely. Sometimes the headache is on one side only—never had that before.

boy, I thought I was going crazy expirencing this! like you, nothing seems to work, and my asthma doc is convinced there’s "no side-effects" with singulair…maybe it’s finally time to get a second (and third if necessary ) opinion! Judge me all you want, just keep the verdict to yourself

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Question:

Anyone have any experience with Effexor.  I’ve tried Prozac, Paxil, Wellbutrin.  None of them work well. Thanx!

See earlier comments. Effexor, although some people have good experiences with it, is not a first choice in treating PAD. Philip

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Anyone have any experience with Effexor.  I’ve tried Prozac, Paxil, Wellbutrin.  None of them work well. Thanx! See earlier comments. Effexor, although some people have good experiences with it, is not a first choice in treating PAD. Philip

Hi…I have been on Effexor (was on) XR for a month. At first, it seemed to lift a bit of my depression and worry, but after, my anxiety became really bad. I seemed to become almost "hypo-manic", and my sleep was WORSE then it ever had been. I could fall asleep fairly easy, but would wake up VERY early, feeling really "hung-over". I really had alot of hope for this drug, but I guess everbody does <g. Well..back to the drawing board…. Peace… James

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Anyone have any experience with Effexor.  I’ve tried Prozac, Paxil, Wellbutrin.  None of them work well. Thanx!

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Anyone have any experience with Effexor.  I’ve tried Prozac, Paxil, Wellbutrin. None of them work well. Thanx!

     I was on venlafaxine (Effexor) for about 3 months.  It worked great for my depression and pain, however the only side effect was sexual dysfunction, so I discontinued it for that reason.  Can’t say it worked on any of my anxiety because I’m on clonazepam (Klonopin) for that, but I know it didn’t cause any increase in anxiety either.  My dosage was 75 mg bid (twice daily).  My dose of clonazepam is really low, almost subtherapeutic, 0.5 mg bid. Good Luck, Chris

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hi all my doc suggested today that i go off clonazepam and start taking effexor as she is not happy with me being on clonazepam for indefinitely.  i have tried many SSRI and was as sick as a dog and had anxiety like 24 hours a day for a long time.  what has your experience of effexor been??? also how long does it take to taper off clonazepam??? thanks a lot kim

Does clonazepam work for you? If so, don’t switch meds but doctors. Effexor is not an SSRI but close enough. *If* you should decide to try Effexor do *not* stop clonazepam at the same time as you risk experiencing both Effexor initial side effects (including worsening of anxiety) and clomazepam withdrawal symptoms. Tapering off of clonazepam takes as long as it takes depending on how high the dose is and how you’ve been taking it. Diminishing the dose with one fourth or less every two weeks or so is a good pace as a rule but YMMV. But once again: if clonazepam works well, why fix something that isn’t broken? Philip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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hi all my doc suggested today that i go off clonazepam and start taking effexor as she is not happy with me being on clonazepam for indefinitely.  i have tried many SSRI and was as sick as a dog and had anxiety like 24 hours a day for a long time.  what has your experience of effexor been??? also how long does it take to taper off clonazepam??? thanks a lot kim

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – hi all my doc suggested today that i go off clonazepam and start taking effexor as she is not happy with me being on clonazepam for indefinitely.  i have tried many SSRI and was as sick as a dog and had anxiety like 24 hours a day for a long time.  what has your experience of effexor been??? also how long does it take to taper off clonazepam??? thanks a lot kim

ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh this is stoopid medicine your doc is a benzophobe and believes that effexor is less addictive or dependency causing then a benzo-it isn’t. It has to be weaned on and weaned off and is not less toxic a compound then clonazepam. If the Klonopin helps you then why tamper with what works-find another doc if possible effexor is a very good medication in more comprehensive in its ability then ssri’s similar to tca’s-in low doses it works well for loads of people-its main side effect is gastrointestinal and increased levels of anxiety similar to the ssri’s I wouldn’t hesitate to use it if it is indicated or in conjunction with klonopin if needed but your doc’s reasoning for using it is downright wrong LM

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I was put on Effexor and it help me as far as the depression, I started on 150 mg and then my doc put me on Clonazepam (klonapin) .5 mg a day half in the morning and half at night. At the same time he increased my Effexor to 225 mg and to be honest I think the Klonapin is helping better because it takes care of my anxiety to a point and without anxiety I am not depressed…….lol I think Effexor works but I am going to talk my doc into lowering the effexor and increasing the klonapin…

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – For me it helped less with the panic/anxiety part. Had to supplement it with klonopin. It takes about 2-6 weeks to work. Less sexual side effects for me than paxil — "Oh dear, I think you’ll find reality’s on the blink again." — Marvin The Paranoid Android : hi everyone. I need your help . I was on PAXIL CR for a year for panic : attacks but had to be taken off of it cause it was raising my liver : enzyme level too high. So my doctor changed my medication to EFFEXOR. : Does anyone know anything about this medicine? Any bad side effects to : it? How long will it take for it to work? Well any information would be : helpful and much appreciated. Thanks so much. Tony : : : : : :

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I was put on Effexor and it help me as far as the depression, I started on 150 mg and then my doc put me on Clonazepam (klonapin) .5 mg a day half in the morning and half at night. At the same time he increased my Effexor to 225 mg and to be honest I think the Klonapin is helping better because it takes care of my anxiety to a point and without anxiety I am not depressed…….lol I think Effexor works but I am going to talk my doc into lowering the effexor and increasing the klonapin…

keep in mind that the two meds treat different symptoms of anxiety.  the effexor is good for the obsessive worries, "rumination" as my therapist calls it.  the nagging thoughts in the back of your head that won’t leave you alone.  benzos don’t help much with those, but they relieve the physical symptoms, the fear, the dumping of adrenaline, etc.  i think you have a good combo there (i’m on both as well).  :-) -kelly

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hi everyone. I need your help . I was on PAXIL CR for a year for panic attacks but had to be taken off of it cause it was raising my liver enzyme level too high. So my doctor changed my medication to EFFEXOR. Does anyone know anything about this medicine? Any bad side effects to it? How long will it take for it to work? Well any information would be helpful and much appreciated. Thanks so much. Tony

Response:

For me it helped less with the panic/anxiety part. Had to supplement it with klonopin. It takes about 2-6 weeks to work. Less sexual side effects for me than paxil — "Oh dear, I think you’ll find reality’s on the blink again." — Marvin The Paranoid Android

: hi everyone. I need your help . I was on PAXIL CR for a year for panic : attacks but had to be taken off of it cause it was raising my liver : enzyme level too high. So my doctor changed my medication to EFFEXOR. : Does anyone know anything about this medicine? Any bad side effects to : it? How long will it take for it to work? Well any information would be : helpful and much appreciated. Thanks so much. Tony : : : : : :

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Question:

Ketoacidosis is not ketosis. Very different states. Ketoacidosis is indeed life threatening and must be treated immediately. Ketoacidosis is generally caused by diabetes which is out of control. Diabetes (except type I diabetes) is caused by carbohydrate metabolism.

Can anyone tell me the difference between ketoacidosis and lactoacidosis? I remember lactoacidosis being one of the potential (and extremely life-threatening) side-effects of taking the drug metformin (which I’ve since stopped taking) Is it the same as ketoacidosis? thanks ~~~~~ Rachel Outside of a dog, a book is man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. – Groucho Marx ~~~~

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  Fact: ten years from now, people will look back at Atkins and his FAD diet and shake their heads and wonder if the horrible effects can be reversed.

LOL Try reading the book … Dr Atkins and his diet have been around for over 20 years now … jackass ~~~~~ Rachel Outside of a dog, a book is man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. – Groucho Marx ~~~~

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"Nina" wrote … I just hate, fads, fashions, pop culture and anything else that worms its way into the mainstream culture by praying on the desperate.  This whole Dr. "Quack" Atkins thing just hits a nerve; a very sore nerve at that! Ah, so you’re here to save us from ourselves.  Good chap. <snip Thanks darling! You’re simply divine.

*laffin’ my @ss off!* ~~~~~ Rachel Outside of a dog, a book is man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. – Groucho Marx ~~~~

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"Lisa C." wrote Also, I see you post to other diet newsgroups as well. Is this for the betterment of man-kind? How wonderful of you.

I was wondering how long it would take for people to bite, I’ve seen quite a few anti-low-carb messages from this guy today – poor Nigel No-Mates needs to annoy people to get any attention … poor diddums! Every newsgroup needs a troll to play with! ~~~~~ Rachel Outside of a dog, a book is man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. – Groucho Marx

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Ahh, so you think that no one holds the answer.  The Doctors may not be right all the time.  And Encylopedia Britainica?  More knowledgable that PhD education biochemists?  What makes you so sure you hold the "right" answer anymore than the doctors who do recommend this diet?  Half the people in any arguement are correct, you think you way, we will think out way.  Just don’t try to save us from ourselves, and we won’t tell YOU how to run your life either. Hope (PMS’ing and bitchy from being tempted by the pizza monster tonight at a friend’s place) 183/180/145 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – And my doctor wanted to put me on medication for the rest of my life to "control" a potential blood pressure problem at the age of 14.  A year’s worth of running a mile every day and the problem disappeared, doctors can’t even explain that one. So, in my opinon, medical doctors rate just about as low as TV evangelists in my books.  BTW, notice how if they have the choice of 5 different mefications to subscribe, they choose the newest, most expensive one by default, unless otherwise instructed?

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1. Extended periods of ketosis affect the chemical composition of the blood in such a way that you increase risk of cardiac incident (blood ketoacidosis). 2. In a state of ketoacidosis, carbon dioxide accumulates in the tissues. Oxygen delivery to the cells is impaired. This can lead to a wide range of disastrous consequences ranging from respiratory ailments to metabolic illness. 3. Toxic ammonia buildup resulting from severe cases of ketoacidosis can be lethal.

You neglected to note that ketoacidosis is a condition limited to Type I diabetics.  In people who are capable of producing insulin, feedback mechanisms in the body prevent dietary ketosis from becoming ketoacidosis. When ketone concentrations reach a certain level, the body releases insulin and inhibits metabolism of fats. —                 "There’s a seeker born every minute."

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I love it Nina!!   lol Cath

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I don’t sell anything, actually I work for the Wildlife Conservation Society. I just hate, fads, fashions, pop culture and anything else that worms its way into the mainstream culture by praying on the desperate.  This whole Dr. "Quack" Atkins thing just hits a nerve; a very sore nerve at that! Ah, so you’re here to save us from ourselves.  Good chap. Thank you ever so much for your concern regarding my health.  In this day and age of ever-increasing apathy, it heartens me to know that you are looking out for my health needs. Thanks darling! You’re simply divine. Ta- Nina —

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So far be it for me to even bother trying to help anyone further.

 Oh, good – does this mean you’ll go away now??

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Well, I was posting this to keep everyone informed.  I’m not saying you don’t lose weight on this diet, I just wanted to enighten some people that only had the information being fed (no pun intended) to them by Atkins, with some objective references.

Except, the references you’ve given aren’t objective. Or complete. Encyclopedias have always been put together by biased people. You can read encyclopedias of the past to understand how this is true. For example, a writer I am fond of, Lytton Strachey, was a homosexual and lived with a woman artist he had a platonic lifelong affair with, for a good portion of his adult life. (Early 20th century) An encyclopedia from the early seventies that I was doing research in, claimed he was a lifelong bachelor, who lived until his death with his mother. This was a so-called authoritative text! Read old encyclopedias, and the archaic ideas put out by them will shock you. Read medical books from a few years back and you’ll run into the same situation. This has been true for centuries. Ketosis CAN be a symptom of a number of disorders. That does not mean it is always a symptom of a disorder. Ketogenic diets are increasingly recognized as an excellent way to deal with brain and nerve system disorders such as epilepsy & sclerosis. I know that it is certainly making a difference in my condition, benign essential tremor. There is a reason why the quotation "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing" is so true. I don’t like seeing people being taken advantage of, but everyone here seems to know everything there is about the side effects of the diet. (Or at least they want to believe everything Atkins has told them, without question.)  So far be it for me to even bother trying to help anyone further. The information is right there for anyone who wants to remove the blinders for a second.  There’s no sense in me trying to show it to you, as the saying goes, "You can lead a horse to water…"

You are assuming we are all idiots. Far from it. I didn’t leap into this diet. I was concerned about it for years. But the more I have learned, and the more I do it, the more I know I’ve made a good choice. And if you are concerned about side effects, take a look at all the pharmaceutical ads that are promoting wonder drugs right now, that must by law list the side effects of the drugs. You think this diet is dangerous? God. Sandra – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m not desperate.  I like lowcarbing and it is working for me and most of the people on the NG.  I appreciate your concern and your need to "warn" us, but honestly, nobody is dropping dead on this diet. Give it some time… the effects will start to show their ugly face. Fact: eating high protein low/no carb acidifies the body Fact: In an attempt to raise system PH, the body calls on it’s mineral stores Fact: the primary mineral stores are within the bones Fact: EATING LOWCARB WILL de-mineralize your bones THUS lead you into an osteoporotic state…. you will sneeze and fracture your ribs….EEEOUCH! Fact: if you disagree with ANY of the above, you need to research these FACTS!

Fact: It takes more than writing "Fact" to make something a Fact. Thought I would explain that to you, since you seem confused. I hate for FACTS to get in the way of a good argument, but alas, it’s now to be the case.  Before I killfile you, I’ll leave you with this: I’m imagining you’re talking about the FALLACY that "protein causes calcium loss."  I’d also imgine you’ve got nothing to back up your claim except that your mother’s-brother’s-friend-who-once-knew-a-nutritionist told you. There’s much more that goes into bone density, like activity level and hormones.  But that would be like, facts, which I think you have no desire to be in possession of.  Before you go into my killfile (ta!) I’ll leave you with this. High Protein Diets and Bone Loss by Elzi Volk http://www.allprotraining.com/Articles/NutritionCenter/2000/May/highp… (She actually uses, like, references and stuff.  But again, let’s not have facts get in the way of things) It’s believed that the old research was poorly designed and is outdated. A wee bit o’ current research. Proc Nutr Soc 1999 May;58(2):403-13 Optimal intakes of protein in the human diet. Millward DJ Centre for Nutrition and Food Safety, School of Biological Sciences, For protein, progress is slow in defining quantifiable indicators of adequacy other than balance and growth. As far as current requirements are concerned, only in the case of infants and children is there any case for revision, and  this change is to lower values. Such intakes would appear to be safe  when consumed as milk formula. In pregnancy, notwithstanding the concern that deficiency  may influence programming of disease in later life, there is little  evidence of any increased need, and some evidence that increased intakes would pose a  risk. For the elderly there is no evidence of an increased requirement  or of benefit from increased intakes, except possibly for bone health. For adults, while we  now know much more about metabolic adaptation to varying intakes, there  would appear to be no case for a change in current recommendations. As far as  risks and benefits of high intakes are concerned, there is now only a weak case for risk for renal function. For bone health the established views of risk of high protein intakes are not supported by newly-emerging data, with benefit indicated in the elderly. There is also circumstantial evidence for benefit on blood  pressure and stroke mortality. With athletes there is little evidence of benefit of increased intakes in terms of performance, with older literature suggesting an adverse influence. Thus, given that a safe upper limit is currently defined as twice the reference nutrient intake, and that for individuals with high energy requirements this value (1.5 g/kg per d) is easily exceeded, there is a  case for revising thedefinition of a safe upper limit. Cheers, Nina — 100% Sweat http://www.theslack.com/diet2.html

Response:

Ketosis-lipolysis is NOT ketoacidosis http://www.lowcarb.org/ketosis.html      Please don’t feed the TROLL.   Lee Rodgers Lee Rodgers The Lowcarb Retreat http://www.lowcarb.org LOSE weight for LOOSE jeans.  LOSERS have LOOSER jeans. "I have to say, if your mind weren’t so narrow, your waist would be." Dr.A Read the FAQ jack   http://www.grossweb.com/asdlc Lowcarb Cookbooks   http://www.lowcarb.org/cook_bks.html

Response:

Well, I was posting this to keep everyone informed.  I’m not saying you don’t lose weight on this diet, I just wanted to enighten some people that only had the information being fed (no pun intended) to them by Atkins, with some objective references. I don’t like seeing people being taken advantage of, but everyone here seems to know everything there is about the side effects of the diet. (Or at least they want to believe everything Atkins has told them, without question.)  So far be it for me to even bother trying to help anyone further. The information is right there for anyone who wants to remove the blinders for a second.  There’s no sense in me trying to show it to you, as the saying goes, "You can lead a horse to water…"

Response:

Well, I was posting this to keep everyone informed.  I’m not saying you don’t lose weight on this diet, I just wanted to enighten some people that only had the information being fed (no pun intended) to them by Atkins, with some objective references.

Everyone here is not on Atkins. I don’t like seeing people being taken advantage of, but everyone here seems to know everything there is about the side effects of the diet. (Or at least they want to believe everything Atkins has told them, without question.)  So far be it for me to even bother trying to help anyone further. The information is right there for anyone who wants to remove the blinders for a second.  There’s no sense in me trying to show it to you, as the saying goes, "You can lead a horse to water…"

Back’atcha.  Read a book once and awhile.  You might learn something. Cheers, Nina — 100% Sweat http://www.theslack.com/diet2.html

Response:

I’m not desperate.  I like lowcarbing and it is working for me and most of the people on the NG.  I appreciate your concern and your need to "warn" us, but honestly, nobody is dropping dead on this diet.

Give it some time… the effects will start to show their ugly face. Fact: eating high protein low/no carb acidifies the body Fact: In an attempt to raise system PH, the body calls on it’s mineral stores Fact: the primary mineral stores are within the bones Fact: EATING LOWCARB WILL de-mineralize your bones THUS lead you into an osteoporotic state…. you will sneeze and fracture your ribs….EEEOUCH! Fact: if you disagree with ANY of the above, you need to research these FACTS! Fact: ten years from now, people will look back at Atkins and his FAD diet and shake their heads and wonder if the horrible effects can be reversed. Fact: The Atkin’s DIE-t WILL go the way of the dinosaurs, leisure suits, AMC Pacers, disco, …etc. Maybe it’s just Atkins’ way of ridding the world of really dumb folk?… YA NEVER KNOW

Response:

And my doctor wanted to put me on medication for the rest of my life to "control" a potential blood pressure problem at the age of 14.  A year’s worth of running a mile every day and the problem disappeared, doctors can’t even explain that one. So, in my opinon, medical doctors rate just about as low as TV evangelists in my books.  BTW, notice how if they have the choice of 5 different mefications to subscribe, they choose the newest, most expensive one by default, unless otherwise instructed? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You know, my Dr. who is a DO BTW told me to go on this diet.  Is he a quack too?  I think not.  If you pay attention to history refined flours and sugars weren’t eaten in the mass quantity that they are now.  In the beginning of the 1800’s people ate only about 10 lbs. of sugar a year.  By the beginning of the 1900’s people were eating 150 lbs. of sugar a year. That is a significant increase, and that’s also the same time obesity went on the rise. I’m sure you’re thinking that people have always eaten bread and potatoes and pasta, and you’re right. But they were eating the bread and pasta from whole grain flour, which is healthier.  I’m sure that people 200 years ago were probably in a state of ketosis all the time..and they all did fine. Dr.Atkins sells his products because there is a need for them.  You don’t have to buy them if you don’t want to though.  I didn’t, I just bought the book is all.  I take my multivitamin from the vitamins I already have.  If I choose to buy shakes, I doubt I’ll buy Atkins since they’re more expensive than another brand I found that does the same thing. You should read Dr.Atkins book BEFORE judging the diet as a whole.  And you should also consider that many of us on this diet were either told to go on it by a Dr. or are under a Dr’s supervision. — -Michelle in Michigan 280/270/170 Atkins since 3-5-01

Response:

You know, my Dr. who is a DO BTW told me to go on this diet.  Is he a quack too?  I think not.  If you pay attention to history refined flours and sugars weren’t eaten in the mass quantity that they are now.  In the beginning of the 1800’s people ate only about 10 lbs. of sugar a year.  By the beginning of the 1900’s people were eating 150 lbs. of sugar a year. That is a significant increase, and that’s also the same time obesity went on the rise. I’m sure you’re thinking that people have always eaten bread and potatoes and pasta, and you’re right. But they were eating the bread and pasta from whole grain flour, which is healthier.  I’m sure that people 200 years ago were probably in a state of ketosis all the time..and they all did fine. Dr.Atkins sells his products because there is a need for them.  You don’t have to buy them if you don’t want to though.  I didn’t, I just bought the book is all.  I take my multivitamin from the vitamins I already have.  If I choose to buy shakes, I doubt I’ll buy Atkins since they’re more expensive than another brand I found that does the same thing. You should read Dr.Atkins book BEFORE judging the diet as a whole.  And you should also consider that many of us on this diet were either told to go on it by a Dr. or are under a Dr’s supervision. — -Michelle in Michigan 280/270/170 Atkins since 3-5-01

Response:

May I assume then that you have no association with the poorly designed home made web page that you quote other than the Britannica site or the products being sold there? You should update FrontPage. Also, I see you post to other diet newsgroups as well. Is this for the betterment of man-kind? How wonderful of you.              :-)     LiLi                              (180/169/125)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I don’t sell anything, actually I work for the Wildlife Conservation Society. I just hate, fads, fashions, pop culture and anything else that worms its way into the mainstream culture by praying on the desperate.  This whole Dr. "Quack" Atkins thing just hits a nerve; a very sore nerve at that! Anyway, I didn’t notice any ads in that message *shrug*. Wow Doc! Looks like you are selling a few products of your own! Is that "for the betterment of man-kind" or your pocketbook? —              :-)     LiLi                              (180/169/125) Read these articles taken form various sites on the Web: ketosis – metabolic disorder marked by high levels of ketones in the tissues and body fluids, including blood and urine. There is less sugar than normal in the blood and less glycogen (the storage form of sugar) in the liver; fat accumulates in the liver, as do amino acids, from which the liver can produce more glycogen. Ketosis may be present in diabetes mellitus. When cattle are affected, they lose weight and produce less milk; dietary adjustment to meet the special requirements of individual cattle helps avoid the condition. (Britannica.com) Now this: With further fasting, lipolysis continues to increase for a few days before it plateaus at a high rate. A large proportion of elevated fatty acids are converted to the "ketone bodies" in the liver, a process enhanced by the high level of glucagon. The brain, previously an avid and fastidious consumer of glucose, begins to use ketones as well as glucose. Eventually, more than one-half of the brain’s daily metabolic energy needs are met by the ketone bodies, thus substantially diminishing the need for hepatic glucose production. The decrease in gluconeogenesis reduces the need for protein-derived amino acids, sparing muscle and making survival during prolonged fasting possible. Starvation is characterized by very low levels of insulin, elevated concentrations of glucagon, and very high concentration of circulating free fatty acids and ketones. (Britannica.com) — When you consume a healthful and supportive diet complete with proteins, carbs, and fats, the carbohydrates are broken down into glucose. Glucose is actually blood sugar. Some of that glucose is transported and stored in muscle tissue as "glycogen." This is sort of the fuel in your fuel tank. That’s important to understand. Glycogen = Fuel. Glycogen is used to produce energy that fuels muscle contraction. ALL muscle contraction! Don’t think of muscle contraction only as exercise. Any movement requires the contraction of muscle, from blinking your eye to rising from bed in the morning. Without glycogen, you don’t have any fuel in the fuel tank. As long as you’re consuming carbs, you continue to re-fuel. You access and burn up stored glycogen, but quickly replace it with new muscle fuel. An understanding of that simple fact, that carbohydrates are the source of muscle fuel should raise an immediate red flag toward anything that suggests eliminating carbs. Once you understand the basic premise behind muscle glycogen, you should understand that the liver also plays a role in fuel storage. Some of the carbs that you eat ultimately wind up stored as liver glycogen. Think of the liver as sort of a "pump" for blood sugar. The brain burns more calories than any other organ in your body, and guess what it uses as its primary source of fuel. Glucose! Carbohydrates! As the brain results in the "burning" of blood glucose, the liver accesses its glycogen stores to keep blood glucose in adequate supply. Again, as you expend glycogen, the carbs that you ingest replete your supply. Atkins asks you to give up carbs. At first you’re doing just fine because you have glycogen stored. After a day or two, you’re using up your stored glycogen and you’re not replacing it. Your body shortly thereafter begins producing ketone bodies. I mentioned Atkins’ praise of a ketotic state already. Let’s look a bit further into this condition. Ketones are intermediaries in the process of metabolizing fat that are found in abnormal amounts in the blood and urine during periods of metabolic impairment. Give up all of your stored glycogen without replacing it and you’re likely going to be in such a state (Note: if you take in too many protein calories, it is possible to avoid carbs and never enter a state of ketosis rendering his low-carb ketosis theories useless). Atkins leads you to believe that the presence of these ketone bodies indicates ongoing fat release. He also assures you that they feed the brain. That is partially true. Here are just a few of the issues he neglects to address: 1. Extended periods of ketosis affect the chemical composition of the blood in such a way that you increase risk of cardiac incident (blood ketoacidosis). 2. In a state of ketoacidosis, carbon dioxide accumulates in the tissues. Oxygen delivery to the cells is impaired. This can lead to a wide range of disastrous consequences ranging from respiratory ailments to metabolic illness. 3. Toxic ammonia buildup resulting from severe cases of ketoacidosis can be lethal. I believe Atkins neglects to share that information with readers. He also neglects to tell you that the liver is called into play to "filter" the abnormal chemicals building up in the blood. This leads to a residual buildup of uric acid. Interestingly, this uric acid accumulation can lead to . . . formation of kidney stones! Kidney stones may be common among low carb dieters, but don’t mistake that for an indication that they’re normal! If all is working optimally, uric acid levels stay quite manageable, the kidneys continue to function normally, and you will likely never have stones accumulating in your urinary tract. (Thefitnesstruth.com) —— I have a lot of friends on low carb diets and for years now I’ve just had a feeling that something wasn’t right, after all, we all didn’t learn the 5 food groups in kindergarten just to throw it away later in life. Dr. Atkins supports the idea of placing your body in a state of Ketosis, in fact, this is what causes his diet to work.  After reading some of those articles above I have to ask "Why?".  Why would anyone want to place their body in this unhealthy state? Here’s a summary of Ketosis.  Your body starts using stored fat cells to provide fuel after the carbs are depleted.  The energy provided to the brain is only a little over 50% of the energy it needs to function, as opposed to the 100% provided by carbohydrates.  Ironically, people in this state of Ketosis don’t realize their reactions are being affected BECAUSE thier brain is operating too slowly to tell (Sorta like being unable to see the forest from the trees). Victims of starvation and insulin dependant diabetics who missed their insulin, are the ones commonly found in this state.  The first two words in the encyclopedia’s entry are "metobolic disorder".  Why then are people flocking to this diet if it requires placing your body in harm’s way? Ketosis is a bodies reaction and defense against illness.  Not only are diabetics found in this sate, anyone who has been sick for prolonged periods of time (Influenza, Bronchitis, etc.) also suffer form Ketosis, since they don’t eat as much as they should and force their body to go into this state of "emergency".  Why do you think people lose weight and look sickly thin when they’ve been sick for a while? I just can’t stress enough how unnatural this is.  It’s unnatural to artificailly place a healthy body in this sate of emergency when everything you need for a healthy living is right there in front of you. I could stand to lose a few pounds myself.  I was tempted to try a diet like this, but declined since it just didn’t sound right.  After reading what I have, I’m glad I did.  I hope some of you out there haven’t been completely suckered ito this diet by Atkins’ promise.  What he sells is a half-truth.  He lives by the phrase "A sucker is born every minute". Think about it, if he was doing this for the betterment of man-kind, why would he sell his products???

Response:

I don’t sell anything, actually I work for the Wildlife Conservation Society. I just hate, fads, fashions, pop culture and anything else that worms its way into the mainstream culture by praying on the desperate.  This whole Dr. "Quack" Atkins thing just hits a nerve; a very sore nerve at that!

Ah, so you’re here to save us from ourselves.  Good chap. Thank you ever so much for your concern regarding my health.  In this day and age of ever-increasing apathy, it heartens me to know that you are looking out for my health needs. Since you have now established yourself to be a virtual "Guardian Angel" over my well-being, I imagine you could and would be agreeable to extending your caring attitude towards the other areas of my life also. Firstly, please contact me as soon as possible so we can discuss my laundry.  I have a back-up of about three loads to do, and could you make sure to do the delicates by hand?   Secondly, Peanut the dog could really use a bath.  Please pick up the special Lytar soap at the Specialty Pet Store.  He could use a nail clip as well.  Then the bathtub will need scrubbing and, well, since you are looking out for my health, please scrub the entire bathroom whilst you’re at it.  Wouldn’t want any of those nasty germs to interfere with my health. Oh, and the car could use some gassing up and then maybe a quick sweep of the apartment.   Doc, love, you’re right up there with Mother Teresa and Princess Di. I’ll notify Stockholm. The Nobel Committmee will want to hear about this! Thanks darling! You’re simply divine. Ta- Nina — 100% Sweat http://www.theslack.com/diet2.html

Response:

Hey, I’m not desperate.  I like lowcarbing and it is working for me and most of the people on the NG.  I appreciate your concern and your need to "warn" us, but honestly, nobody is dropping dead on this diet.  I really have never felt better in my life.  Don’t get me wrong.  In my 20’s, I lost weight on the mainstream, low-fat, high complex carbo diet.  I tried it again, now that I’m in my late 30’s, and it wasn’t happening for me.  However, I started low carb and the pounds are coming off, albeit slowly, but hey, I’m in no hurry.  I personally don’t believe it’s healthy to eat all the carbs I was eating on a "normal" diet.  I don’t think Atkins is a fad diet…he’s been around since the early 70’s.  Maybe you could try the old saying, "Don’t knock it ’til you’ve tried it." Gwendolyn

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I don’t sell anything, actually I work for the Wildlife Conservation Society. I just hate, fads, fashions, pop culture and anything else that worms its way into the mainstream culture by praying on the desperate.  This whole Dr. "Quack" Atkins thing just hits a nerve; a very sore nerve at that! Anyway, I didn’t notice any ads in that message *shrug*. Wow Doc! Looks like you are selling a few products of your own! Is that "for the betterment of man-kind" or your pocketbook? —              :-)     LiLi                              (180/169/125) Read these articles taken form various sites on the Web: ketosis – metabolic disorder marked by high levels of ketones in the tissues and body fluids, including blood and urine. There is less sugar than normal in the blood and less glycogen (the storage form of sugar) in the liver; fat accumulates in the liver, as do amino acids, from which the liver can produce more glycogen. Ketosis may be present in diabetes mellitus. When cattle are affected, they lose weight and produce less milk; dietary adjustment to meet the special requirements of individual cattle helps avoid the condition. (Britannica.com) Now this: With further fasting, lipolysis continues to increase for a few days before it plateaus at a high rate. A large proportion of elevated fatty acids are converted to the "ketone bodies" in the liver, a process enhanced by the high level of glucagon. The brain, previously an avid and fastidious consumer of glucose, begins to use ketones as well as glucose. Eventually, more than one-half of the brain’s daily metabolic energy needs are met by the ketone bodies, thus substantially diminishing the need for hepatic glucose production. The decrease in gluconeogenesis reduces the need for protein-derived amino acids, sparing muscle and making survival during prolonged fasting possible. Starvation is characterized by very low levels of insulin, elevated concentrations of glucagon, and very high concentration of circulating free fatty acids and ketones. (Britannica.com) — When you consume a healthful and supportive diet complete with proteins, carbs, and fats, the carbohydrates are broken down into glucose. Glucose is actually blood sugar. Some of that glucose is transported and stored in muscle tissue as "glycogen." This is sort of the fuel in your fuel tank. That’s important to understand. Glycogen = Fuel. Glycogen is used to produce energy that fuels muscle contraction. ALL muscle contraction! Don’t think of muscle contraction only as exercise. Any movement requires the contraction of muscle, from blinking your eye to rising from bed in the morning. Without glycogen, you don’t have any fuel in the fuel tank. As long as you’re consuming carbs, you continue to re-fuel. You access and burn up stored glycogen, but quickly replace it with new muscle fuel. An understanding of that simple fact, that carbohydrates are the source of muscle fuel should raise an immediate red flag toward anything that suggests eliminating carbs. Once you understand the basic premise behind muscle glycogen, you should understand that the liver also plays a role in fuel storage. Some of the carbs that you eat ultimately wind up stored as liver glycogen. Think of the liver as sort of a "pump" for blood sugar. The brain burns more calories than any other organ in your body, and guess what it uses as its primary source of fuel. Glucose! Carbohydrates! As the brain results in the "burning" of blood glucose, the liver accesses its glycogen stores to keep blood glucose in adequate supply. Again, as you expend glycogen, the carbs that you ingest replete your supply. Atkins asks you to give up carbs. At first you’re doing just fine because you have glycogen stored. After a day or two, you’re using up your stored glycogen and you’re not replacing it. Your body shortly thereafter begins producing ketone bodies. I mentioned Atkins’ praise of a ketotic state already. Let’s look a bit further into this condition. Ketones are intermediaries in the process of metabolizing fat that are found in abnormal amounts in the blood and urine during periods of metabolic impairment. Give up all of your stored glycogen without replacing it and you’re likely going to be in such a state (Note: if you take in too many protein calories, it is possible to avoid carbs and never enter a state of ketosis rendering his low-carb ketosis theories useless). Atkins leads you to believe that the presence of these ketone bodies indicates ongoing fat release. He also assures you that they feed the brain. That is partially true. Here are just a few of the issues he neglects to address: 1. Extended periods of ketosis affect the chemical composition of the blood in such a way that you increase risk of cardiac incident (blood ketoacidosis). 2. In a state of ketoacidosis, carbon dioxide accumulates in the tissues. Oxygen delivery to the cells is impaired. This can lead to a wide range of disastrous consequences ranging from respiratory ailments to metabolic illness. 3. Toxic ammonia buildup resulting from severe cases of ketoacidosis can be lethal. I believe Atkins neglects to share that information with readers. He also neglects to tell you that the liver is called into play to "filter" the abnormal chemicals building up in the blood. This leads to a residual buildup of uric acid. Interestingly, this uric acid accumulation can lead to . . . formation of kidney stones! Kidney stones may be common among low carb dieters, but don’t mistake that for an indication that they’re normal! If all is working optimally, uric acid levels stay quite manageable, the kidneys continue to function normally, and you will likely never have stones accumulating in your urinary tract. (Thefitnesstruth.com) —— I have a lot of friends on low carb diets and for years now I’ve just had a feeling that something wasn’t right, after all, we all didn’t learn the 5 food groups in kindergarten just to throw it away later in life. Dr. Atkins supports the idea of placing your body in a state of Ketosis, in fact, this is what causes his diet to work.  After reading some of those articles above I have to ask "Why?".  Why would anyone want to place their body in this unhealthy state? Here’s a summary of Ketosis.  Your body starts using stored fat cells to provide fuel after the carbs are depleted.  The energy provided to the brain is only a little over 50% of the energy it needs to function, as opposed to the 100% provided by carbohydrates.  Ironically, people in this state of Ketosis don’t realize their reactions are being affected BECAUSE thier brain is operating too slowly to tell (Sorta like being unable to see the forest from the trees). Victims of starvation and insulin dependant diabetics who missed their insulin, are the ones commonly found in this state.  The first two words in the encyclopedia’s entry are "metobolic disorder".  Why then are people flocking to this diet if it requires placing your body in harm’s way? Ketosis is a bodies reaction and defense against illness.  Not only are diabetics found in this sate, anyone who has been sick for prolonged periods of time (Influenza, Bronchitis, etc.) also suffer form Ketosis, since they don’t eat as much as they should and force their body to go into this state of "emergency".  Why do you think people lose weight and look sickly thin when they’ve been sick for a while? I just can’t stress enough how unnatural this is.  It’s unnatural to artificailly place a healthy body in this sate of emergency when everything you need for a healthy living is right there in front of you. I could stand to lose a few pounds myself.  I was tempted to try a diet like this, but declined since it just didn’t sound right.  After reading what I have, I’m glad I did.  I hope some of you out there haven’t been completely suckered ito this diet by Atkins’ promise.  What he sells is a half-truth.  He lives by the phrase "A sucker is born every minute". Think about it, if he was doing this for the betterment of man-kind, why would he sell his products???

Response:

Cute. Lets examine some of your quotations and conclusions… Read these articles taken form various sites on the Web: ketosis – metabolic disorder marked by high levels of ketones in the tissues and body fluids, including blood and urine. There is less sugar than normal in the blood and less glycogen (the storage form of sugar) in the liver; fat accumulates in the liver, as do amino acids, from which the liver can produce more glycogen. Ketosis may be present in diabetes mellitus. When cattle are affected, they lose weight and produce less milk; dietary adjustment to meet the special requirements of individual cattle helps avoid the condition. (Britannica.com)

Ketoacidosis is not ketosis. Very different states. Ketoacidosis is indeed life threatening and must be treated immediately. Ketoacidosis is generally caused by diabetes which is out of control. Diabetes (except type I diabetes) is caused by carbohydrate metabolism. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Now this: With further fasting, lipolysis continues to increase for a few days before it plateaus at a high rate. A large proportion of elevated fatty acids are converted to the "ketone bodies" in the liver, a process enhanced by the high level of glucagon. The brain, previously an avid and fastidious consumer of glucose, begins to use ketones as well as glucose. Eventually, more than one-half of the brain’s daily metabolic energy needs are met by the ketone bodies, thus substantially diminishing the need for hepatic glucose production. The decrease in gluconeogenesis reduces the need for protein-derived amino acids, sparing muscle and making survival during prolonged fasting possible. Starvation is characterized by very low levels of insulin, elevated concentrations of glucagon, and very high concentration of circulating free fatty acids and ketones. (Britannica.com) —

Ketosis from low carbohydrate consumption is not the same state as ketosis from starvation. Whatever diet you may be on, starvation is bad news. When you consume a healthful and supportive diet complete with proteins, carbs, and fats, the carbohydrates are broken down into glucose. Glucose is actually blood sugar. Some of that glucose is transported and stored in muscle tissue as "glycogen." This is sort of the fuel in your fuel tank. That’s important to understand. Glycogen = Fuel.

Your body can burn sugar for fuel. It can also burn ethanol. And it can burn fat. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Glycogen is used to produce energy that fuels muscle contraction. ALL muscle contraction! Don’t think of muscle contraction only as exercise. Any movement requires the contraction of muscle, from blinking your eye to rising from bed in the morning. Without glycogen, you don’t have any fuel in the fuel tank. As long as you’re consuming carbs, you continue to re-fuel. You access and burn up stored glycogen, but quickly replace it with new muscle fuel. An understanding of that simple fact, that carbohydrates are the source of muscle fuel should raise an immediate red flag toward anything that suggests eliminating carbs. Once you understand the basic premise behind muscle glycogen, you should understand that the liver also plays a role in fuel storage. Some of the carbs that you eat ultimately wind up stored as liver glycogen. Think of the liver as sort of a "pump" for blood sugar. The brain burns more calories than any other organ in your body, and guess what it uses as its primary source of fuel. Glucose! Carbohydrates! As the brain results in the "burning" of blood glucose, the liver accesses its glycogen stores to keep blood glucose in adequate supply. Again, as you expend glycogen, the carbs that you ingest replete your supply. Atkins asks you to give up carbs. At first you’re doing just fine because you have glycogen stored. After a day or two, you’re using up your stored glycogen and you’re not replacing it. Your body shortly thereafter begins producing ketone bodies. I mentioned Atkins’ praise of a ketotic state already. Let’s look a bit further into this condition. Ketones are intermediaries in the process of metabolizing fat that are found in abnormal amounts in the blood and urine during periods of

How do you determine what is abnormal here? Ketones are normally present in fat metabolism, normally absent in carbohydrate metabolism. metabolic impairment. Give up all of your stored glycogen without replacing it and you’re likely going to be in such a state (Note: if you take in too many protein calories, it is possible to avoid carbs and never enter a state of ketosis rendering his low-carb ketosis theories useless). Atkins leads you to believe that the presence of these ketone bodies indicates ongoing fat release. He also assures you that they feed the brain. That is partially true. Here are just a few of the issues he neglects to address: 1. Extended periods of ketosis affect the chemical composition of the blood in such a way that you increase risk of cardiac incident (blood ketoacidosis).

No. Ketosis is not ketoacidosis. 2. In a state of ketoacidosis, carbon dioxide accumulates in the tissues. Oxygen delivery to the cells is impaired. This can lead to a wide range of disastrous consequences ranging from respiratory ailments to metabolic illness.

Also sudden death. But nobody deliberately induces ketoacidosis. 3. Toxic ammonia buildup resulting from severe cases of ketoacidosis can be lethal.

Yes. I believe Atkins neglects to share that information with readers. He

Since Dr. Atkins does not propose the inducement of a ketoacidotic state, he doesn’t generally warn his readers against that — though he does advise that ketosis is not ketoacidosis. also neglects to tell you that the liver is called into play to "filter" the abnormal chemicals building up in the blood. This leads to a

What abnormal chemicals? residual buildup of uric acid. Interestingly, this uric acid accumulation can lead to . . . formation of kidney stones!

Where did you come up with this. I have been in a state of ketosis over 7 months. Just had blood work done. No abnormal chemicals noted in the blood work. Kidney function is doing great. Kidney stones may be common among low carb dieters, but don’t mistake that for an indication that they’re normal! If all is working optimally, uric acid levels stay quite manageable, the kidneys continue to function normally, and you will likely never have stones accumulating in your urinary tract.

What makes you think that kidney stones are common among low carb eaters. Where did you get that idea? (Thefitnesstruth.com) —— I have a lot of friends on low carb diets and for years now I’ve just had a feeling that something wasn’t right, after all, we all didn’t learn the 5 food groups in kindergarten just to throw it away later in life.

I learned a lot before I was six that I discarded when I was 7. Dr. Atkins supports the idea of placing your body in a state of Ketosis, in fact, this is what causes his diet to work.  After reading some of those articles above I have to ask "Why?".  Why would anyone want to place their body in this unhealthy state?

What makes you think this is an unhealthy state? Here’s a summary of Ketosis.  Your body starts using stored fat cells to provide fuel after the carbs are depleted.  The energy provided to the brain is only a little over 50% of the energy it needs to function, as opposed to the 100% provided by carbohydrates.  Ironically, people in this state of Ketosis don’t realize their reactions are being affected BECAUSE thier brain is operating too slowly to tell (Sorta like being unable to see the forest from the trees).

That is actually funny. The brain and red blood cells do need sugar. They get all they need during ketosis by the conversion of protein to sugar. All the cells of your body need fat and are quite happy using fat for energy. I run a health care facility — a very demanding job. If my brain has been slowed down so much that I can’t even notice it, don’t you think everyone else would? Don’t you think my wife would notice that I had suddenly become slow and stupid? Victims of starvation and insulin dependant diabetics who missed their insulin, are the ones commonly found in this state.  The first two words in the encyclopedia’s entry are "metobolic disorder".  Why then are people flocking to this diet if it requires placing your body in harm’s way?

Diabetic ketoacidosis is indeed a metabolic disorder caused by the body’s inability to tolerate sugar. I certainly believe that it is wise to avoid diabetic ketoacidosis. A low carbohydrate diet is the best way to avoid that condition. Ketosis is a bodies reaction and defense against illness.  Not only are diabetics found in this sate, anyone who has been sick for prolonged periods of time (Influenza, Bronchitis, etc.) also suffer form Ketosis, since they don’t eat as much as they should and force their body to go into this state of "emergency".  Why do you think people lose weight and look sickly thin when they’ve been sick for a while?

What makes you say that ketosis is an ‘emergency state’? It is a quite normal state. The body can burn sugar (which results in one state) or fat (which results in another state). Why do you feel that one state is normal while the other is not? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just can’t stress enough how unnatural this is.  It’s unnatural to artificailly place a healthy body in this sate of emergency when everything you need for a healthy living is right there in front of you. I could stand to lose a few pounds myself.  I was tempted to try a diet like this, but declined since it just didn’t sound right.  After reading what I have, I’m glad I did.  I hope some

… read more »

Response:

Actually, in my biochem med class Yesterday I asked my professor… the brain actually prefers ketones… and she showed me. The brain doesn’t like glucose. I’d like to see a study with IQ and diet… it wouldn’t surprise me if (with a large sample size), we could show higher scores under Ketosis. That article, was… incorrect. I’ll agree with you about the media… science and health are reported inaccurately more then half the time. The fat craze is one great example. Study after study show that a calorie is a calorie is a calorie.. yet people actually try to cut back on Fat. I bet there are still doctors out there who think ulcers are related to stress… that was disproved.. its a bacterial infection… within a few years we will see the atkins diet become the diet. FDA should take over the nutrition business… why our food suppliers are telling us what is healthy is beyond me. American Heart Association Labels on Apple Jacks… get real. Just as grain production increased the pyramid… and the ratios provided (servings) is remarkably close to the grain surplus when divided spastically. I take it you probably don’t have a weight problem… or if you did… u may have been one of those who just ate too da*n much. I have no respect for those people at all. My doctor (MD, duel PhD (biochem) was the one who recommended it. Along with my sisters endocrinologist who is #1 in the world right now.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I don’t sell anything, actually I work for the Wildlife Conservation Society. I just hate, fads, fashions, pop culture and anything else that worms its way into the mainstream culture by praying on the desperate.  This whole Dr. "Quack" Atkins thing just hits a nerve; a very sore nerve at that! Anyway, I didn’t notice any ads in that message *shrug*. Wow Doc! Looks like you are selling a few products of your own! Is that "for the betterment of man-kind" or your pocketbook? —              :-)     LiLi                              (180/169/125) Read these articles taken form various sites on the Web: ketosis – metabolic disorder marked by high levels of ketones in the tissues and body fluids, including blood and urine. There is less sugar than normal in the blood and less glycogen (the storage form of sugar) in the liver; fat accumulates in the liver, as do amino acids, from which the liver can produce more glycogen. Ketosis may be present in diabetes mellitus. When cattle are affected, they lose weight and produce less milk; dietary adjustment to meet the special requirements of individual cattle helps avoid the condition. (Britannica.com) Now this: With further fasting, lipolysis continues to increase for a few days before it plateaus at a high rate. A large proportion of elevated fatty acids are converted to the "ketone bodies" in the liver, a process enhanced by the high level of glucagon. The brain, previously an avid and fastidious consumer of glucose, begins to use ketones as well as glucose. Eventually, more than one-half of the brain’s daily metabolic energy needs are met by the ketone bodies, thus substantially diminishing the need for hepatic glucose production. The decrease in gluconeogenesis reduces the need for protein-derived amino acids, sparing muscle and making survival during prolonged fasting possible. Starvation is characterized by very low levels of insulin, elevated concentrations of glucagon, and very high concentration of circulating free fatty acids and ketones. (Britannica.com) — When you consume a healthful and supportive diet complete with proteins, carbs, and fats, the carbohydrates are broken down into glucose. Glucose is actually blood sugar. Some of that glucose is transported and stored in muscle tissue as "glycogen." This is sort of the fuel in your fuel tank. That’s important to understand. Glycogen = Fuel. Glycogen is used to produce energy that fuels muscle contraction. ALL muscle contraction! Don’t think of muscle contraction only as exercise. Any movement requires the contraction of muscle, from blinking your eye to rising from bed in the morning. Without glycogen, you don’t have any fuel in the fuel tank. As long as you’re consuming carbs, you continue to re-fuel. You access and burn up stored glycogen, but quickly replace it with new muscle fuel. An understanding of that simple fact, that carbohydrates are the source of muscle fuel should raise an immediate red flag toward anything that suggests eliminating carbs. Once you understand the basic premise behind muscle glycogen, you should understand that the liver also plays a role in fuel storage. Some of the carbs that you eat ultimately wind up stored as liver glycogen. Think of the liver as sort of a "pump" for blood sugar. The brain burns more calories than any other organ in your body, and guess what it uses as its primary source of fuel. Glucose! Carbohydrates! As the brain results in the "burning" of blood glucose, the liver accesses its glycogen stores to keep blood glucose in adequate supply. Again, as you expend glycogen, the carbs that you ingest replete your supply. Atkins asks you to give up carbs. At first you’re doing just fine because you have glycogen stored. After a day or two, you’re using up your stored glycogen and you’re not replacing it. Your body shortly thereafter begins producing ketone bodies. I mentioned Atkins’ praise of a ketotic state already. Let’s look a bit further into this condition. Ketones are intermediaries in the process of metabolizing fat that are found in abnormal amounts in the blood and urine during periods of metabolic impairment. Give up all of your stored glycogen without replacing it and you’re likely going to be in such a state (Note: if you take in too many protein calories, it is possible to avoid carbs and never enter a state of ketosis rendering his low-carb ketosis theories useless). Atkins leads you to believe that the presence of these ketone bodies indicates ongoing fat release. He also assures you that they feed the brain. That is partially true. Here are just a few of the issues he neglects to address: 1. Extended periods of ketosis affect the chemical composition of the blood in such a way that you increase risk of cardiac incident (blood ketoacidosis). 2. In a state of ketoacidosis, carbon dioxide accumulates in the tissues. Oxygen delivery to the cells is impaired. This can lead to a wide range of disastrous consequences ranging from respiratory ailments to metabolic illness. 3. Toxic ammonia buildup resulting from severe cases of ketoacidosis can be lethal. I believe Atkins neglects to share that information with readers. He also neglects to tell you that the liver is called into play to "filter" the abnormal chemicals building up in the blood. This leads to a residual buildup of uric acid. Interestingly, this uric acid accumulation can lead to . . . formation of kidney stones! Kidney stones may be common among low carb dieters, but don’t mistake that for an indication that they’re normal! If all is working optimally, uric acid levels stay quite manageable, the kidneys continue to function normally, and you will likely never have stones accumulating in your urinary tract. (Thefitnesstruth.com) —— I have a lot of friends on low carb diets and for years now I’ve just had a feeling that something wasn’t right, after all, we all didn’t learn the 5 food groups in kindergarten just to throw it away later in life. Dr. Atkins supports the idea of placing your body in a state of Ketosis, in fact, this is what causes his diet to work.  After reading some of those articles above I have to ask "Why?".  Why would anyone want to place their body in this unhealthy state? Here’s a summary of Ketosis.  Your body starts using stored fat cells to provide fuel after the carbs are depleted.  The energy provided to the brain is only a little over 50% of the energy it needs to function, as opposed to the 100% provided by carbohydrates.  Ironically, people in this state of Ketosis don’t realize their reactions are being affected BECAUSE thier brain is operating too slowly to tell (Sorta like being unable to see the forest from the trees). Victims of starvation and insulin dependant diabetics who missed their insulin, are the ones commonly found in this state.  The first two words in the encyclopedia’s entry are "metobolic disorder".  Why then are people flocking to this diet if it requires placing your body in harm’s way? Ketosis is a bodies reaction and defense against illness.  Not only are diabetics found in this sate, anyone who has been sick for prolonged periods of time (Influenza, Bronchitis, etc.) also suffer form Ketosis, since they don’t eat as much as they should and force their body to go into this state of "emergency".  Why do you think people lose weight and look sickly thin when they’ve been sick for a while? I just can’t stress enough how unnatural this is.  It’s unnatural to artificailly place a healthy body in this sate of emergency when

… read more »

Response:

OH BROTHER!!! I am not even going to go into trying to explain the safety and medical aspect of this diet – except to point out that Dr. Atkins is a Doctor, a cardiologist, in fact. Go buy his book. And there is a HUGE difference between ketosis and KETOACIDOSIS or Diabetic Ketoacidosis or DKA. After reading your "interesting" post, I went and did some research that would put the difference into simple English. I don’t know what your agenda is, but here is what I found from emedicine.com and thestream.com: KETOSIS "Ketosis is a metabolic state in which the body will burn fat for fuel and is producing "ketones" (also called ketone bodies) as a byproduct. This change in metabolism occurs when the body no longer has a supply of carbohydrates to produce glycogen and after the liver has been depleted of stored glycogen. When either stored body fat or incoming dietary fat is used as fuel it breaks down into ketones. Ketones can be used as fuel for your body or discarded via your breath or urination. It is the rise in ketone production that means you are "in ketosis". Take note that although you are in ketosis this does not mean that you are *only* burning body fat. The released ketones may be from either body fat or dietary fat. Obviously, since we are trying to lose weight, we want to be in a metabolic state where body fat is being burned off.  Therefore, understanding the biochemical foundation of ketosis, we cut starches and sugars, this is called "low carbing", and  without incoming carbs, and without consuming too many grams of dietary fat or protein, our bodies will be burning stored body fat as fuel. Positive side effects of being in ketosis are that it can be protein sparing (allowing us to retain lean body mass) and that it can lead to a decrease in appetite, for some people." KETOACIDOSIS on the other hand is caused by hyperglycemia which causes an osmotic diuresis that leads to excessive loss of free water and electrolytes. Resultant hypovolemia leads to tissue hypoperfusion and lactic acidosis. The danger from electrolyte imbalances are the consequences of hyperglycemia, hyperosmolality and acidosis. CARB DIET "This biochemical process is safe. It is not a "fad" diet, it is one that our ancestors at almost exclusively. High in lean meats, fresh fruits and vegetables, low in most carbohydrates.  For a typical American at least 70% of calories are provided by foods that were practically unavailable early human times, namely processed foods such as oils, margarine, refined sugar and cereals. These typical western foods are low in minerals, vitamins and soluble fiber but high in fat and salt. There is much evidence indicating that some of these dietary factors are important causes of common western disorders like CORONARY HEART DISEASE, STROKE and DIABETES.  Rather than being harmful, there is mounting evidence that the low carbohydrate diet is extremely helpful."

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Read these articles taken form various sites on the Web: ketosis – metabolic disorder marked by high levels of ketones in the tissues and body fluids, including blood and urine. There is less sugar than normal in the blood and less glycogen (the storage form of sugar) in the liver; fat accumulates in the liver, as do amino acids, from which the liver can produce more glycogen. Ketosis may be present in diabetes mellitus. When cattle are affected, they lose weight and produce less milk; dietary adjustment to meet the special requirements of individual cattle helps avoid the condition. (Britannica.com) Now this: With further fasting, lipolysis continues to increase for a few days before it plateaus at a high rate. A large proportion of elevated fatty acids are converted to the "ketone bodies" in the liver, a process enhanced by the high level of glucagon. The brain, previously an avid and fastidious consumer of glucose, begins to use ketones as well as glucose. Eventually, more than one-half of the brain’s daily metabolic energy needs are met by the ketone bodies, thus substantially diminishing the need for hepatic glucose production. The decrease in gluconeogenesis reduces the need for protein-derived amino acids, sparing muscle and making survival during prolonged fasting possible. Starvation is characterized by very low levels of insulin, elevated concentrations of glucagon, and very high concentration of circulating free fatty acids and ketones. (Britannica.com) — When you consume a healthful and supportive diet complete with proteins, carbs, and fats, the carbohydrates are broken down into glucose. Glucose is actually blood sugar. Some of that glucose is transported and stored in muscle tissue as "glycogen." This is sort of the fuel in your fuel tank. That’s important to understand. Glycogen = Fuel. Glycogen is used to produce energy that fuels muscle contraction. ALL muscle contraction! Don’t think of muscle contraction only as exercise. Any movement requires the contraction of muscle, from blinking your eye to rising from bed in the morning. Without glycogen, you don’t have any fuel in the fuel tank. As long as you’re consuming carbs, you continue to re-fuel. You access and burn up stored glycogen, but quickly replace it with new muscle fuel. An understanding of that simple fact, that carbohydrates are the source of muscle fuel should raise an immediate red flag toward anything that suggests eliminating carbs. Once you understand the basic premise behind muscle glycogen, you should understand that the liver also plays a role in fuel storage. Some of the carbs that you eat ultimately wind up stored as liver glycogen. Think of the liver as sort of a "pump" for blood sugar. The brain burns more calories than any other organ in your body, and guess what it uses as its primary source of fuel. Glucose! Carbohydrates! As the brain results in the "burning" of blood glucose, the liver accesses its glycogen stores to keep blood glucose in adequate supply. Again, as you expend glycogen, the carbs that you ingest replete your supply. Atkins asks you to give up carbs. At first you’re doing just fine because you have glycogen stored. After a day or two, you’re using up your stored glycogen and you’re not replacing it. Your body shortly thereafter begins producing ketone bodies. I mentioned Atkins’ praise of a ketotic state already. Let’s look a bit further into this condition. Ketones are intermediaries in the process of metabolizing fat that are found in abnormal amounts in the blood and urine during periods of metabolic impairment. Give up all of your stored glycogen without replacing it and you’re likely going to be in such a state (Note: if you take in too many protein calories, it is possible to avoid carbs and never enter a state of ketosis rendering his low-carb ketosis theories useless). Atkins leads you to believe that the presence of these ketone bodies indicates ongoing fat release. He also assures you that they feed the brain. That is partially true. Here are just a few of the issues he neglects to address: 1. Extended periods of ketosis affect the chemical composition of the blood in such a way that you increase risk of cardiac incident (blood ketoacidosis). 2. In a state of ketoacidosis, carbon dioxide accumulates in the tissues. Oxygen delivery to the cells is impaired. This can lead to a wide range of disastrous consequences ranging from respiratory ailments to metabolic illness. 3. Toxic ammonia buildup resulting from severe cases of ketoacidosis can be lethal. I believe Atkins neglects to share that information with readers. He also neglects to tell you that the liver is called into play to "filter" the abnormal chemicals building up in the blood. This leads to a residual buildup of uric acid. Interestingly, this uric acid accumulation can lead to . . . formation of kidney stones! Kidney stones may be common among low carb dieters, but don’t mistake that for an indication that they’re normal! If all is working optimally, uric acid levels stay quite manageable, the kidneys continue to function normally, and you will likely never have stones accumulating in your urinary tract. (Thefitnesstruth.com) —— I have a lot of friends on low carb diets and for years now I’ve just had a feeling that something wasn’t right, after all, we all didn’t learn the 5 food groups in kindergarten just to throw it away later in life. Dr. Atkins supports the idea of placing your body in a state of Ketosis, in fact, this is what causes his diet to work.  After reading some of those articles above I have to ask "Why?".  Why would anyone want to place their body in this unhealthy state? Here’s a summary of Ketosis.  Your body starts using stored fat cells to provide fuel after the carbs are depleted.  The energy provided to the brain is only a little over 50% of the energy it needs to function, as opposed to the 100% provided by carbohydrates.  Ironically, people in this state of Ketosis don’t realize their reactions are being affected BECAUSE thier brain is operating too slowly to tell (Sorta like being unable to see the forest from the trees). Victims of starvation and insulin dependant diabetics who missed their insulin, are the ones commonly found in this state.  The first two words in the encyclopedia’s entry are "metobolic disorder".  Why then are people flocking to this diet if it requires placing your body in harm’s way? Ketosis is a bodies reaction and defense against illness.  Not only are diabetics found in this sate, anyone who has been sick for prolonged periods of time (Influenza, Bronchitis, etc.) also suffer form Ketosis,

… read more »

Response:

I don’t sell anything, actually I work for the Wildlife Conservation Society. I just hate, fads, fashions, pop culture and anything else that worms its way into the mainstream culture by praying on the desperate.  This whole Dr. "Quack" Atkins thing just hits a nerve; a very sore nerve at that! Anyway, I didn’t notice any ads in that message *shrug*. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Wow Doc! Looks like you are selling a few products of your own! Is that "for the betterment of man-kind" or your pocketbook? —              :-)     LiLi                              (180/169/125) Read these articles taken form various sites on the Web: ketosis – metabolic disorder marked by high levels of ketones in the tissues and body fluids, including blood and urine. There is less sugar than normal in the blood and less glycogen (the storage form of sugar) in the liver; fat accumulates in the liver, as do amino acids, from which the liver can produce more glycogen. Ketosis may be present in diabetes mellitus. When cattle are affected, they lose weight and produce less milk; dietary adjustment to meet the special requirements of individual cattle helps avoid the condition. (Britannica.com) Now this: With further fasting, lipolysis continues to increase for a few days before it plateaus at a high rate. A large proportion of elevated fatty acids are converted to the "ketone bodies" in the liver, a process enhanced by the high level of glucagon. The brain, previously an avid and fastidious consumer of glucose, begins to use ketones as well as glucose. Eventually, more than one-half of the brain’s daily metabolic energy needs are met by the ketone bodies, thus substantially diminishing the need for hepatic glucose production. The decrease in gluconeogenesis reduces the need for protein-derived amino acids, sparing muscle and making survival during prolonged fasting possible. Starvation is characterized by very low levels of insulin, elevated concentrations of glucagon, and very high concentration of circulating free fatty acids and ketones. (Britannica.com) — When you consume a healthful and supportive diet complete with proteins, carbs, and fats, the carbohydrates are broken down into glucose. Glucose is actually blood sugar. Some of that glucose is transported and stored in muscle tissue as "glycogen." This is sort of the fuel in your fuel tank. That’s important to understand. Glycogen = Fuel. Glycogen is used to produce energy that fuels muscle contraction. ALL muscle contraction! Don’t think of muscle contraction only as exercise. Any movement requires the contraction of muscle, from blinking your eye to rising from bed in the morning. Without glycogen, you don’t have any fuel in the fuel tank. As long as you’re consuming carbs, you continue to re-fuel. You access and burn up stored glycogen, but quickly replace it with new muscle fuel. An understanding of that simple fact, that carbohydrates are the source of muscle fuel should raise an immediate red flag toward anything that suggests eliminating carbs. Once you understand the basic premise behind muscle glycogen, you should understand that the liver also plays a role in fuel storage. Some of the carbs that you eat ultimately wind up stored as liver glycogen. Think of the liver as sort of a "pump" for blood sugar. The brain burns more calories than any other organ in your body, and guess what it uses as its primary source of fuel. Glucose! Carbohydrates! As the brain results in the "burning" of blood glucose, the liver accesses its glycogen stores to keep blood glucose in adequate supply. Again, as you expend glycogen, the carbs that you ingest replete your supply. Atkins asks you to give up carbs. At first you’re doing just fine because you have glycogen stored. After a day or two, you’re using up your stored glycogen and you’re not replacing it. Your body shortly thereafter begins producing ketone bodies. I mentioned Atkins’ praise of a ketotic state already. Let’s look a bit further into this condition. Ketones are intermediaries in the process of metabolizing fat that are found in abnormal amounts in the blood and urine during periods of metabolic impairment. Give up all of your stored glycogen without replacing it and you’re likely going to be in such a state (Note: if you take in too many protein calories, it is possible to avoid carbs and never enter a state of ketosis rendering his low-carb ketosis theories useless). Atkins leads you to believe that the presence of these ketone bodies indicates ongoing fat release. He also assures you that they feed the brain. That is partially true. Here are just a few of the issues he neglects to address: 1. Extended periods of ketosis affect the chemical composition of the blood in such a way that you increase risk of cardiac incident (blood ketoacidosis). 2. In a state of ketoacidosis, carbon dioxide accumulates in the tissues. Oxygen delivery to the cells is impaired. This can lead to a wide range of disastrous consequences ranging from respiratory ailments to metabolic illness. 3. Toxic ammonia buildup resulting from severe cases of ketoacidosis can be lethal. I believe Atkins neglects to share that information with readers. He also neglects to tell you that the liver is called into play to "filter" the abnormal chemicals building up in the blood. This leads to a residual buildup of uric acid. Interestingly, this uric acid accumulation can lead to . . . formation of kidney stones! Kidney stones may be common among low carb dieters, but don’t mistake that for an indication that they’re normal! If all is working optimally, uric acid levels stay quite manageable, the kidneys continue to function normally, and you will likely never have stones accumulating in your urinary tract. (Thefitnesstruth.com) —— I have a lot of friends on low carb diets and for years now I’ve just had a feeling that something wasn’t right, after all, we all didn’t learn the 5 food groups in kindergarten just to throw it away later in life. Dr. Atkins supports the idea of placing your body in a state of Ketosis, in fact, this is what causes his diet to work.  After reading some of those articles above I have to ask "Why?".  Why would anyone want to place their body in this unhealthy state? Here’s a summary of Ketosis.  Your body starts using stored fat cells to provide fuel after the carbs are depleted.  The energy provided to the brain is only a little over 50% of the energy it needs to function, as opposed to the 100% provided by carbohydrates.  Ironically, people in this state of Ketosis don’t realize their reactions are being affected BECAUSE thier brain is operating too slowly to tell (Sorta like being unable to see the forest from the trees). Victims of starvation and insulin dependant diabetics who missed their insulin, are the ones commonly found in this state.  The first two words in the encyclopedia’s entry are "metobolic disorder".  Why then are people flocking to this diet if it requires placing your body in harm’s way? Ketosis is a bodies reaction and defense against illness.  Not only are diabetics found in this sate, anyone who has been sick for prolonged periods of time (Influenza, Bronchitis, etc.) also suffer form Ketosis, since they don’t eat as much as they should and force their body to go into this state of "emergency".  Why do you think people lose weight and look sickly thin when they’ve been sick for a while? I just can’t stress enough how unnatural this is.  It’s unnatural to artificailly place a healthy body in this sate of emergency when everything you need for a healthy living is right there in front of you. I could stand to lose a few pounds myself.  I was tempted to try a diet like this, but declined since it just didn’t sound right.  After reading what I have, I’m glad I did.  I hope some of you out there haven’t been completely suckered ito this diet by Atkins’ promise.  What he sells is a half-truth.  He lives by the phrase "A sucker is born every minute". Think about it, if he was doing this for the betterment of man-kind, why would he sell his products???

Response:

Wow Doc! Looks like you are selling a few products of your own! Is that "for the betterment of man-kind" or your pocketbook? —              :-)     LiLi                              (180/169/125)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Read these articles taken form various sites on the Web: ketosis – metabolic disorder marked by high levels of ketones in the tissues and body fluids, including blood and urine. There is less sugar than normal in the blood and less glycogen (the storage form of sugar) in the liver; fat accumulates in the liver, as do amino acids, from which the liver can produce more glycogen. Ketosis may be present in diabetes mellitus. When cattle are affected, they lose weight and produce less milk; dietary adjustment to meet the special requirements of individual cattle helps avoid the condition. (Britannica.com) Now this: With further fasting, lipolysis continues to increase for a few days before it plateaus at a high rate. A large proportion of elevated fatty acids are converted to the "ketone bodies" in the liver, a process enhanced by the high level of glucagon. The brain, previously an avid and fastidious consumer of glucose, begins to use ketones as well as glucose. Eventually, more than one-half of the brain’s daily metabolic energy needs are met by the ketone bodies, thus substantially diminishing the need for hepatic glucose production. The decrease in gluconeogenesis reduces the need for protein-derived amino acids, sparing muscle and making survival during prolonged fasting possible. Starvation is characterized by very low levels of insulin, elevated concentrations of glucagon, and very high concentration of circulating free fatty acids and ketones. (Britannica.com) — When you consume a healthful and supportive diet complete with proteins, carbs, and fats, the carbohydrates are broken down into glucose. Glucose is actually blood sugar. Some of that glucose is transported and stored in muscle tissue as "glycogen." This is sort of the fuel in your fuel tank. That’s important to understand. Glycogen = Fuel. Glycogen is used to produce energy that fuels muscle contraction. ALL muscle contraction! Don’t think of muscle contraction only as exercise. Any movement requires the contraction of muscle, from blinking your eye to rising from bed in the morning. Without glycogen, you don’t have any fuel in the fuel tank. As long as you’re consuming carbs, you continue to re-fuel. You access and burn up stored glycogen, but quickly replace it with new muscle fuel. An understanding of that simple fact, that carbohydrates are the source of muscle fuel should raise an immediate red flag toward anything that suggests eliminating carbs. Once you understand the basic premise behind muscle glycogen, you should understand that the liver also plays a role in fuel storage. Some of the carbs that you eat ultimately wind up stored as liver glycogen. Think of the liver as sort of a "pump" for blood sugar. The brain burns more calories than any other organ in your body, and guess what it uses as its primary source of fuel. Glucose! Carbohydrates! As the brain results in the "burning" of blood glucose, the liver accesses its glycogen stores to keep blood glucose in adequate supply. Again, as you expend glycogen, the carbs that you ingest replete your supply. Atkins asks you to give up carbs. At first you’re doing just fine because you have glycogen stored. After a day or two, you’re using up your stored glycogen and you’re not replacing it. Your body shortly thereafter begins producing ketone bodies. I mentioned Atkins’ praise of a ketotic state already. Let’s look a bit further into this condition. Ketones are intermediaries in the process of metabolizing fat that are found in abnormal amounts in the blood and urine during periods of metabolic impairment. Give up all of your stored glycogen without replacing it and you’re likely going to be in such a state (Note: if you take in too many protein calories, it is possible to avoid carbs and never enter a state of ketosis rendering his low-carb ketosis theories useless). Atkins leads you to believe that the presence of these ketone bodies indicates ongoing fat release. He also assures you that they feed the brain. That is partially true. Here are just a few of the issues he neglects to address: 1. Extended periods of ketosis affect the chemical composition of the blood in such a way that you increase risk of cardiac incident (blood ketoacidosis). 2. In a state of ketoacidosis, carbon dioxide accumulates in the tissues. Oxygen delivery to the cells is impaired. This can lead to a wide range of disastrous consequences ranging from respiratory ailments to metabolic illness. 3. Toxic ammonia buildup resulting from severe cases of ketoacidosis can be lethal. I believe Atkins neglects to share that information with readers. He also neglects to tell you that the liver is called into play to "filter" the abnormal chemicals building up in the blood. This leads to a residual buildup of uric acid. Interestingly, this uric acid accumulation can lead to . . . formation of kidney stones! Kidney stones may be common among low carb dieters, but don’t mistake that for an indication that they’re normal! If all is working optimally, uric acid levels stay quite manageable, the kidneys continue to function normally, and you will likely never have stones accumulating in your urinary tract. (Thefitnesstruth.com) —— I have a lot of friends on low carb diets and for years now I’ve just had a feeling that something wasn’t right, after all, we all didn’t learn the 5 food groups in kindergarten just to throw it away later in life. Dr. Atkins supports the idea of placing your body in a state of Ketosis, in fact, this is what causes his diet to work.  After reading some of those articles above I have to ask "Why?".  Why would anyone want to place their body in this unhealthy state? Here’s a summary of Ketosis.  Your body starts using stored fat cells to provide fuel after the carbs are depleted.  The energy provided to the brain is only a little over 50% of the energy it needs to function, as opposed to the 100% provided by carbohydrates.  Ironically, people in this state of Ketosis don’t realize their reactions are being affected BECAUSE thier brain is operating too slowly to tell (Sorta like being unable to see the forest from the trees). Victims of starvation and insulin dependant diabetics who missed their insulin, are the ones commonly found in this state.  The first two words in the encyclopedia’s entry are "metobolic disorder".  Why then are people flocking to this diet if it requires placing your body in harm’s way? Ketosis is a bodies reaction and defense against illness.  Not only are diabetics found in this sate, anyone who has been sick for prolonged periods of time (Influenza, Bronchitis, etc.) also suffer form Ketosis, since they don’t eat as much as they should and force their body to go into this state of "emergency".  Why do you think people lose weight and look sickly thin when they’ve been sick for a while? I just can’t stress enough how unnatural this is.  It’s unnatural to artificailly place a healthy body in this sate of emergency when everything you need for a healthy living is right there in front of you. I could stand to lose a few pounds myself.  I was tempted to try a diet like this, but declined since it just didn’t sound right.  After reading what I have, I’m glad I did.  I hope some of you out there haven’t been completely suckered ito this diet by Atkins’ promise.  What he sells is a half-truth.  He lives by the phrase "A sucker is born every minute". Think about it, if he was doing this for the betterment of man-kind, why would he sell his products???

Response:

Read these articles taken form various sites on the Web: ketosis – metabolic disorder marked by high levels of ketones in the tissues and body fluids, including blood and urine. There is less sugar than normal in the blood and less glycogen (the storage form of sugar) in the liver; fat accumulates in the liver, as do amino acids, from which the liver can produce more glycogen. Ketosis may be present in diabetes mellitus. When cattle are affected, they lose weight and produce less milk; dietary adjustment to meet the special requirements of individual cattle helps avoid the condition. (Britannica.com) Now this: With further fasting, lipolysis continues to increase for a few days before it plateaus at a high rate. A large proportion of elevated fatty acids are converted to the "ketone bodies" in the liver, a process enhanced by the high level of glucagon. The brain, previously an avid and fastidious consumer of glucose, begins to use ketones as well as glucose. Eventually, more than one-half of the brain’s daily metabolic energy needs are met by the ketone bodies, thus substantially diminishing the need for hepatic glucose production. The decrease in gluconeogenesis reduces the need for protein-derived amino acids, sparing muscle and making survival during prolonged fasting possible. Starvation is characterized by very low levels of insulin, elevated concentrations of glucagon, and very high concentration of circulating free fatty acids and ketones. (Britannica.com) — When you consume a healthful and supportive diet complete with proteins, carbs, and fats, the carbohydrates are broken down into glucose. Glucose is actually blood sugar. Some of that glucose is transported and stored in muscle tissue as "glycogen." This is sort of the fuel in your fuel tank. That’s important to understand. Glycogen = Fuel. Glycogen is used to produce energy that fuels muscle contraction. ALL muscle contraction! Don’t think of muscle contraction only as exercise. Any movement requires the contraction of muscle, from blinking your eye to rising from bed in the morning. Without glycogen, you don’t have any fuel in the fuel tank. As long as you’re consuming carbs, you continue to re-fuel. You access and burn up stored glycogen, but quickly replace it with new muscle fuel. An understanding of that simple fact, that carbohydrates are the source of muscle fuel should raise an immediate red flag toward anything that suggests eliminating carbs. Once you understand the basic premise behind muscle glycogen, you should understand that the liver also plays a role in fuel storage. Some of the carbs that you eat ultimately wind up stored as liver glycogen. Think of the liver as sort of a "pump" for blood sugar. The brain burns more calories than any other organ in your body, and guess what it uses as its primary source of fuel. Glucose! Carbohydrates! As the brain results in the "burning" of blood glucose, the liver accesses its glycogen stores to keep blood glucose in adequate supply. Again, as you expend glycogen, the carbs that you ingest replete your supply. Atkins asks you to give up carbs. At first you’re doing just fine because you have glycogen stored. After a day or two, you’re using up your stored glycogen and you’re not replacing it. Your body shortly thereafter begins producing ketone bodies. I mentioned Atkins’ praise of a ketotic state already. Let’s look a bit further into this condition. Ketones are intermediaries in the process of metabolizing fat that are found in abnormal amounts in the blood and urine during periods of metabolic impairment. Give up all of your stored glycogen without replacing it and you’re likely going to be in such a state (Note: if you take in too many protein calories, it is possible to avoid carbs and never enter a state of ketosis rendering his low-carb ketosis theories useless). Atkins leads you to believe that the presence of these ketone bodies indicates ongoing fat release. He also assures you that they feed the brain. That is partially true. Here are just a few of the issues he neglects to address: 1. Extended periods of ketosis affect the chemical composition of the blood in such a way that you increase risk of cardiac incident (blood ketoacidosis). 2. In a state of ketoacidosis, carbon dioxide accumulates in the tissues. Oxygen delivery to the cells is impaired. This can lead to a wide range of disastrous consequences ranging from respiratory ailments to metabolic illness. 3. Toxic ammonia buildup resulting from severe cases of ketoacidosis can be lethal. I believe Atkins neglects to share that information with readers. He also neglects to tell you that the liver is called into play to "filter" the abnormal chemicals building up in the blood. This leads to a residual buildup of uric acid. Interestingly, this uric acid accumulation can lead to . . . formation of kidney stones! Kidney stones may be common among low carb dieters, but don’t mistake that for an indication that they’re normal! If all is working optimally, uric acid levels stay quite manageable, the kidneys continue to function normally, and you will likely never have stones accumulating in your urinary tract. (Thefitnesstruth.com) —— I have a lot of friends on low carb diets and for years now I’ve just had a feeling that something wasn’t right, after all, we all didn’t learn the 5 food groups in kindergarten just to throw it away later in life. Dr. Atkins supports the idea of placing your body in a state of Ketosis, in fact, this is what causes his diet to work.  After reading some of those articles above I have to ask "Why?".  Why would anyone want to place their body in this unhealthy state? Here’s a summary of Ketosis.  Your body starts using stored fat cells to provide fuel after the carbs are depleted.  The energy provided to the brain is only a little over 50% of the energy it needs to function, as opposed to the 100% provided by carbohydrates.  Ironically, people in this state of Ketosis don’t realize their reactions are being affected BECAUSE thier brain is operating too slowly to tell (Sorta like being unable to see the forest from the trees). Victims of starvation and insulin dependant diabetics who missed their insulin, are the ones commonly found in this state.  The first two words in the encyclopedia’s entry are "metobolic disorder".  Why then are people flocking to this diet if it requires placing your body in harm’s way? Ketosis is a bodies reaction and defense against illness.  Not only are diabetics found in this sate, anyone who has been sick for prolonged periods of time (Influenza, Bronchitis, etc.) also suffer form Ketosis, since they don’t eat as much as they should and force their body to go into this state of "emergency".  Why do you think people lose weight and look sickly thin when they’ve been sick for a while? I just can’t stress enough how unnatural this is.  It’s unnatural to artificailly place a healthy body in this sate of emergency when everything you need for a healthy living is right there in front of you. I could stand to lose a few pounds myself.  I was tempted to try a diet like this, but declined since it just didn’t sound right.  After reading what I have, I’m glad I did.  I hope some of you out there haven’t been completely suckered ito this diet by Atkins’ promise.  What he sells is a half-truth.  He lives by the phrase "A sucker is born every minute". Think about it, if he was doing this for the betterment of man-kind, why would he sell his products???

Response:

Question:

On my third week at 200 mg.  Still nothing.  Does anyone have any experience using Serzone?  Please share.

Response:

Taking serzone, 250 mg/day. Started at 75, then up to 125, then 150, now 250.  I’ve been on it probably 9-10 months.  I am very glad I found it. I can’t take prozac, paxil, zoloft, effexor . . . but the serzone does what it needs to. I don’t feel "flat" or numb – I still have emotions, it’s just that the highs are not as high nor the lows as low.  I still have bad days, but they come and go much quicker than when I was on no meds at all.  My pdoc says I will probably be on the serzone for a couple of years at least. The only side effects i’ve noticed are that I sweat a whole lot (I sweat a lot before I ever took ADs, so now it is profuse!), and my dreams are very, very vivid.  But I can handle both of those SE. Good luck with it, Oliver. Kym The Tintinnabulation of the bells, Bells, BELLS! Remove "blech" to e-mail me

Response:

serzone nearly wrecked everything , 400 per day , welcome to the zoo , well it was for me , the best med i took so far , has been no med , and i mean no med at all . not even a coffee .

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Taking serzone, 250 mg/day. Started at 75, then up to 125, then 150, now 250.  I’ve been on it probably 9-10 months.  I am very glad I found it. I can’t take prozac, paxil, zoloft, effexor . . . but the serzone does what it needs to. I don’t feel "flat" or numb – I still have emotions, it’s just that the highs are not as high nor the lows as low.  I still have bad days, but they come and go much quicker than when I was on no meds at all.  My pdoc says I will probably be on the serzone for a couple of years at least. The only side effects i’ve noticed are that I sweat a whole lot (I sweat a lot before I ever took ADs, so now it is profuse!), and my dreams are very, very vivid.  But I can handle both of those SE. Good luck with it, Oliver. Kym The Tintinnabulation of the bells, Bells, BELLS! Remove "blech" to e-mail me

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Response:

mind you, normally i wouldn’t be bothered by the easy access to a script… but it only verified for me that nobody in a 90 mile radius gives a sh*t about me.

Honey, it’s not you.  Doctors are under so much pressure to see as many people as possible that they simply give you pretty much what ever you ask for just to save time.  Yes it’s horrible, but it’s not aimed at you personally. anybody experience really bad headaches with this drug?

I couldn’t tell you that because I’ve had bad headaches pretty much all my life no matter what drug I’m on. Monica Tittle   Bad habits are hard to break.  Especially if you like them.                                   –Found inside a fortune cookie

Response:

That’s the med’s that my doc gave me. I’m taking 100 mg’s.  I’ve only started today, so I woulden’t know. The doc said it should take about 2 1/2 weeks to kick in. Give it another week.  If it is not working, then tell your doc. ~Racheal G           ICQ# 91183600 You can’t fight the tears that aint coming, or the moment of truth in your lies. When everything feels like the movies, you bleed just to know your alive. Before you buy.

Response:

The only side effects i’ve noticed are that I sweat a whole lot (I sweat a lot before I ever took ADs, so now it is profuse!), and my dreams are very, very vivid.  But I can handle both of those SE.

Oh god!  I thought it was just me!  I’ve never sweated very much before, but now I sweat buckets.  I was folding laundry (only three baskets) and I looked like I had been working out for an hour afterwards.  I’m talking dripping off my nose soaked hair kind of sweaty here. I wish I had the vivid dreams.  I haven’t had a good one in a very long time.  :-/ Monica Tittle   Bad habits are hard to break.  Especially if you like them.                                   –Found inside a fortune cookie

Response:

serzone had it’s ups n downs , sex was finally possible again , but the toilet trips were a little much , i got bum burn

% Sorry you had trouble with the serzone. For me it has been a godsend – a way to be able to live, productively, work, be active in my church, and quell most of the suic*de thoughts that I was having. As for no caffeine – ACK – i’d never survive! Kym The Tintinnabulation of the bells, Bells, BELLS! Remove "blech" to e-mail me

—–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

% Sorry you had trouble with the serzone. For me it has been a godsend – a way to be able to live, productively, work, be active in my church, and quell most of the suic*de thoughts that I was having. As for no caffeine – ACK – i’d never survive! Kym The Tintinnabulation of the bells, Bells, BELLS! Remove "blech" to e-mail me

Response:

Question:

Renee, your idea sounds wonderful.  Yes, part of the problem is that my brain is like a video in fast forward.  I tend to keep busy (physically busy) just to keep from thinking. Now that helps, but the moment I stop being busy, the brain switches into fast forward.  I can’t read very much without losing track and if I force myself my headaches start.  Can you tell me a little more.  What kind of thoughts do you try to focus on…..I believe I would tend to go to the thoughts that trouble me.

I don’t try to focus on anything – i think that for me, that was part of the problem – i was trying to control it.  When I unfocus and just let the thoughts and images flow over me, eventually, I can calm down, my mind isn’t racing as much, and i generally feel calmer.  Doing this 15 minutes a day reguarly over a period of time helped me immensely.  I hope it does the same for you! I’ve been like this for about five years, when I was peacekeeping in Bosnia. Before that I never had any problems….I read all the time.  I finished university with an A/B average….I had what I believe was similar to a photographic memory.   The memory seems to be improving a little.  I just need to attack the concentration problem.

I believe you can do it, but it might take some time and some effort, and it’s easy (or at least it was for me) to get discouraged.  Journaling your thoughts might also help.  It might be helpful to look at them as a small child needing attention – if you give them the attention, and just flow along with it for a short period of time, they might give you some peace the rest of the day, or at least be less intrusive. good luck and let me know how it goes! take care, Renee No pessimist ever discovered the secrets of the stars, or sailed to an uncharted land, or opened a new heaven to the human spirit. –Helen Keller

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Thanks for the input everyone. Jackie, I’ve been taking effexor since March.  I’m up to 150 mg a day and I take imovane for sleep.  The headaches have improved since I switched over from Prozac…and improved to the point that I feel I can overcome the concentration problems. Renee, your idea sounds wonderful.  Yes, part of the problem is that my brain is like a video in fast forward.  I tend to keep busy (physically busy) just to keep from thinking. Now that helps, but the moment I stop being busy, the brain switches into fast forward.  I can’t read very much without losing track and if I force myself my headaches start.  Can you tell me a little more.  What kind of thoughts do you try to focus on…..I believe I would tend to go to the thoughts that trouble me. I’ve been like this for about five years, when I was peacekeeping in Bosnia. Before that I never had any problems….I read all the time.  I finished university with an A/B average….I had what I believe was similar to a photographic memory.   The memory seems to be improving a little.  I just need to attack the concentration problem. Take Care Lesleyanne

Hi chech, I looked up Imovane on the net because it isn’t listed in my US PDR. From what I saw, doses of 7.5 mg and less should have no effect on your CNS, but above that, there can and probably will be.  If you are taking doses greater than 7.5 mg, you may want to talk to your pdoc about it. Otherwise, I know that even while on SSRIs, an increase in anxiety will have a tremendous effect on my concentration and memory.  Even when I don’t "feel" anxious, anxiety inducing events will have that effect. Remember that I have GAD with PD, so YMMV, etc., etc. tnx, drr — The second nicest guy on the internet Need the ASAP Mini-FAQ? A copy is at www.drrhodes.org

Response:

Thanks for the input everyone. Jackie, I’ve been taking effexor since March.  I’m up to 150 mg a day and I take imovane for sleep.  The headaches have improved since I switched over from Prozac…and improved to the point that I feel I can overcome the concentration problems. Renee, your idea sounds wonderful.  Yes, part of the problem is that my brain is like a video in fast forward.  I tend to keep busy (physically busy) just to keep from thinking. Now that helps, but the moment I stop being busy, the brain switches into fast forward.  I can’t read very much without losing track and if I force myself my headaches start.  Can you tell me a little more.  What kind of thoughts do you try to focus on…..I believe I would tend to go to the thoughts that trouble me. I’ve been like this for about five years, when I was peacekeeping in Bosnia. Before that I never had any problems….I read all the time.  I finished university with an A/B average….I had what I believe was similar to a photographic memory.   The memory seems to be improving a little.  I just need to attack the concentration problem. Take Care Lesleyanne The one and only chech has a home on the information highway… just turn right at http://home.thezone.net/~chech

Response:

Roo asked:

Hi Roo, If your anxiety and/or depression are causing problems with your attention span, than there is the possibility that Effexor could help. If Effexor is effective in eliminating or greatly reducing your anxiety and depression then your attention span might improve. With my last setback I was so bad that following a recipe in a cookbook was hard for me. Paxil reduced my anxiety so much, that my concentration has come back. However, there is no quarantee even if the Effexor does work, that your attention span will be better. I know a few people that even when they found effective meds for their anxiety and/or depression their concentration was still bad…….so this is a YMMV thing. Take care and good luck with your new med!! jackie

Response:

Hi Lesleyanne ~ I have PTSD too and concentration used to be a real problem for me.  I’d read the same paragraph or sentence over and over and still not know what it said.  Don’t remember that headaches were a part of that, but it seems like I’ve always had trouble with them. Weird question: I’m wondering what specifically is troublesome about reading or concentration…. is it that too many things are going through your head, ‘just’ unfocused ??  I had some of each.  Meditation really helped ‘quiet’ my racing mind.  I would lay on the floor or sit in a comfortable chair for 15-30 minutes (and had to work up to that.  initially, if I could do it for 30 seconds, I was thrilled).  Sometimes I’d try to focus on a specific thing, other times I would just let all those thoughts flow over me, and eventually, my brain would slow down enough to where I felt more comfortable, and had greater focus.  It took a long time – many months – to get to the point where I could read a book again. How long have you dealt with this, and what have you tried?  I agree with Jackie that it’s hard for anyone to concentrate with a headache. I find that I work best when I am not focusing on any one thing for ‘too long’, and am doing a variety of things through the day.  I’m a multitasker take care, Renee No pessimist ever discovered the secrets of the stars, or sailed to an uncharted land, or opened a new heaven to the human spirit. –Helen Keller – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I suffer from PTSD and the one symptom that is really bothering me now is the concentration problems. I was wondering if there was anything I could do to get it back.  I can’t read for very long or do anything that requires mental concentration for very long.  I have a constant ‘tension’ type headache (usually on the right side) althought that has improved since I switched from prozac to effexor. Any thoughts or experiences with this problem would be greatly appreciated.

Response:

— Roo.com       http://www.roo.com Well, dip me in honey…

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I suffer from PTSD and the one symptom that is really bothering me now is the concentration problems. I was wondering if there was anything I could do to get it back.  I can’t read for very long or do anything that requires mental concentration for very long.  I have a constant ‘tension’ type headache (usually on the right side) althought that has improved since I switched from prozac to effexor. Any thoughts or experiences with this problem would be greatly appreciated. Thanks Lesleyanne Hi Lesleyanne, How long have you been on the Effxor? If it has only been a short while, then maybe more time is needed to see if this symptom will improve with the Effexor. With my last setback my concentration was awful, but Paxil really took care of it. I know concentration problems are quite common with anxiety disorders and it seems to be a stubborn symptom. I suffer from Migraines and when I have one, I cannot concentrate. It is possible that your chronic headaches might be interfering with your concentration. Have you been to a neurologist for your headaches? Perhaps treating the headache would help the concentration? The only other time I had terrible concentration problems was when my thyroid was acting up. I assumed that all my symptoms were anxiety, when in fact it was my thyroid. Might not hurt to look into that, just to be sure. Take care and feel better!!! Jackie "Don’t be afraid of the space between your dreams and reality.  If you can dream it, you can make it so."

Response:

I suffer from PTSD and the one symptom that is really bothering me now is the concentration problems. I was wondering if there was anything I could do to get it back.  I can’t read for very long or do anything that requires mental concentration for very long.  I have a constant ‘tension’ type headache (usually on the right side) althought that has improved since I switched from prozac to effexor. Any thoughts or experiences with this problem would be greatly appreciated. Thanks Lesleyanne The one and only chech lives in cyberspace at http://home.thezone.net/~chech

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I suffer from PTSD and the one symptom that is really bothering me now is the concentration problems. I was wondering if there was anything I could do to get it back.  I can’t read for very long or do anything that requires mental concentration for very long.  I have a constant ‘tension’ type headache (usually on the right side) althought that has improved since I switched from prozac to effexor. Any thoughts or experiences with this problem would be greatly appreciated. Thanks Lesleyanne

Hi Lesleyanne, How long have you been on the Effxor? If it has only been a short while, then maybe more time is needed to see if this symptom will improve with the Effexor. With my last setback my concentration was awful, but Paxil really took care of it. I know concentration problems are quite common with anxiety disorders and it seems to be a stubborn symptom. I suffer from Migraines and when I have one, I cannot concentrate. It is possible that your chronic headaches might be interfering with your concentration. Have you been to a neurologist for your headaches? Perhaps treating the headache would help the concentration? The only other time I had terrible concentration problems was when my thyroid was acting up. I assumed that all my symptoms were anxiety, when in fact it was my thyroid. Might not hurt to look into that, just to be sure. Take care and feel better!!! Jackie "Don’t be afraid of the space between your dreams and reality.  If you can dream it, you can make it so."

Response:

Question:

      is it addictive?       is it expensive?       is it like valium/librium  or is it better for anxiety?       any bad side effects from the med?       any one taken it for more than a year?        i have to start taking it soon, and just wondered how it        effects other people….          thanks in advance……roman

Response:

I’ve been on Buspar for 3 months. 60 mg/day. It works great for me without any side effects. It is not addictive.I don’t know how expensive it is – I have prescription coverage. It is extremely safe. I think it is used alot in children. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –       is it addictive?       is it expensive?       is it like valium/librium  or is it better for anxiety?       any bad side effects from the med?       any one taken it for more than a year?        i have to start taking it soon, and just wondered how it        effects other people….          thanks in advance……roman

Response:

anyone on BUSPAR

I’ve been on Buspar for a while now. Its non-addictive, moderately expensive. Effects?  I don’t know of any for sure.  I take it in connection with Zoloft. It ammeliorates some of the side effects of Zoloft and helps me get by on a lighter dose. Hope this helps. "All wisdom is plagiarism; only stupidity is original"

Response:

I have just started on Buspar also.  So far I can tell no bad side effects.  Would like to hear of successes.  My doctor was not very positive this would help me.  Let us know. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve been on Buspar for 3 months. 60 mg/day. It works great for me without any side effects. It is not addictive.I don’t know how expensive it is – I have prescription coverage. It is extremely safe. I think it is used alot in children.       is it addictive?       is it expensive?       is it like valium/librium  or is it better for anxiety?       any bad side effects from the med?       any one taken it for more than a year?        i have to start taking it soon, and just wondered how it        effects other people….          thanks in advance……roman

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 I just started on a combo of Buspar and Wellbutrin after 2 years on Paxil… I’ll let you know how it goes. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have just started on Buspar also.  So far I can tell no bad side effects. Would like to hear of successes.  My doctor was not very positive this would help me.  Let us know. I’ve been on Buspar for 3 months. 60 mg/day. It works great for me without any side effects. It is not addictive.I don’t know how expensive it is – I have prescription coverage. It is extremely safe. I think it is used alot in children.       is it addictive?       is it expensive?       is it like valium/librium  or is it better for anxiety?       any bad side effects from the med?       any one taken it for more than a year?        i have to start taking it soon, and just wondered how it        effects other people….          thanks in advance……roman

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Question:

WebfootVA schreef: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – BTW, though you said you take it at night.  Do you eat dinner late or do you take it with a snack?  If I started to eat my dinner at 9pm I would not only have bad indigestion, I’d probably weigh about 10 pounds more than I do now! Hi Iris, I do both.  I used to eat late dinners when I worked until 9pm so I could eat with my husband in the past.  For me, this was never a big deal.  I either eat a very light dinner at 5pm with my kids and a big snack later on, or I just have a late dinner, but I always eat before the meds. I also work out 5-6 times a week in the mornings at the gym as I’ve tended to gain weight with any of the meds in the past and I didn’t want to go that route again.  It also helps a lot with the everyday stress and gives me exposure to the rapid heart rate….rapid breathing symptoms, which I’m hoping will eventually help me prevent relapse once this goes into remission again. take care, Lene Well, I’ll probably have to take it in the morning then, or at least with my dinner around 7pm.  If I eat much later, I feel queasy when I go to bed. I need to start working out again.  I don’t have a weight problem but I am noticing a growing flab problem!  Exercise was my salvation when I had PA’s 10 years ago, but now I’ve developed a bit of a phobia–also, I suspect tied to the rapid heart rate, sweating, etc. BTW, the doc wants me to start out on 25 mg for a week then increase to 50mg where I’ll stay if the drug is successful.  Is 25 mg a low enough dose to start? Should I ask him for a lower dose?  I only weigh about 112, although I have a friend who doesn’t even tip the scales at 100 lbs and she started at 50 mg with no problem. Ever more questions. Iris —

  Iris, I feel your doctor knows about your fear of meds (which I recognize completely) and therefore starts your medication on a very low dose indeed. You should have no problems taking this at any time of the day. And: the proof of the pudding is in the eating. Try it and do it asap because you’ve been torturing yourself for too long now. Just do it! You’ll survive. Just as I did, so many times now (and still fraking out over every new med but having learnt to take it. If I can do it, you certainly can! I wish you knew me better to discover how true this is… Philip Peters

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – WebfootVA schreef: BTW, though you said you take it at night.  Do you eat dinner late or do you take it with a snack?  If I started to eat my dinner at 9pm I would not only have bad indigestion, I’d probably weigh about 10 pounds more than I do now! Hi Iris, I do both.  I used to eat late dinners when I worked until 9pm so I could eat with my husband in the past.  For me, this was never a big deal.  I either eat a very light dinner at 5pm with my kids and a big snack later on, or I just have a late dinner, but I always eat before the meds. I also work out 5-6 times a week in the mornings at the gym as I’ve tended to gain weight with any of the meds in the past and I didn’t want to go that route again.  It also helps a lot with the everyday stress and gives me exposure to the rapid heart rate….rapid breathing symptoms, which I’m hoping will eventually help me prevent relapse once this goes into remission again. take care, Lene Well, I’ll probably have to take it in the morning then, or at least with my dinner around 7pm.  If I eat much later, I feel queasy when I go to bed. I need to start working out again.  I don’t have a weight problem but I am noticing a growing flab problem!  Exercise was my salvation when I had PA’s 10 years ago, but now I’ve developed a bit of a phobia–also, I suspect tied to the rapid heart rate, sweating, etc. BTW, the doc wants me to start out on 25 mg for a week then increase to 50mg where I’ll stay if the drug is successful.  Is 25 mg a low enough dose to start? Should I ask him for a lower dose?  I only weigh about 112, although I have a friend who doesn’t even tip the scales at 100 lbs and she started at 50 mg with no problem. Ever more questions. Iris —   Iris, I feel your doctor knows about your fear of meds (which I recognize completely) and therefore starts your medication on a very low dose indeed. You should have no problems taking this at any time of the day. And: the proof of the pudding is in the eating. Try it and do it asap because you’ve been torturing yourself for too long now. Just do it! You’ll survive. Just as I did, so many times now (and still fraking out over every new med but having learnt to take it. If I can do it, you certainly can! I wish you knew me better to discover how true this is… Philip Peters

Philip: What a nice reply!  I’m going to print it out and tape it to the mirror, ’cause I’ve decided I’m going to start tonight! Iris (hoping to be successful…) —

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – BTW, though you said you take it at night.  Do you eat dinner late or do you take it with a snack?  If I started to eat my dinner at 9pm I would not only have bad indigestion, I’d probably weigh about 10 pounds more than I do now! Hi Iris, I do both.  I used to eat late dinners when I worked until 9pm so I could eat with my husband in the past.  For me, this was never a big deal.  I either eat a very light dinner at 5pm with my kids and a big snack later on, or I just have a late dinner, but I always eat before the meds. I also work out 5-6 times a week in the mornings at the gym as I’ve tended to gain weight with any of the meds in the past and I didn’t want to go that route again.  It also helps a lot with the everyday stress and gives me exposure to the rapid heart rate….rapid breathing symptoms, which I’m hoping will eventually help me prevent relapse once this goes into remission again. take care, Lene

Well, I’ll probably have to take it in the morning then, or at least with my dinner around 7pm.  If I eat much later, I feel queasy when I go to bed. I need to start working out again.  I don’t have a weight problem but I am noticing a growing flab problem!  Exercise was my salvation when I had PA’s 10 years ago, but now I’ve developed a bit of a phobia–also, I suspect tied to the rapid heart rate, sweating, etc. BTW, the doc wants me to start out on 25 mg for a week then increase to 50mg where I’ll stay if the drug is successful.  Is 25 mg a low enough dose to start? Should I ask him for a lower dose?  I only weigh about 112, although I have a friend who doesn’t even tip the scales at 100 lbs and she started at 50 mg with no problem. Ever more questions. Iris —

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BTW, though you said you take it at night.  Do you eat dinner late or do you take it with a snack?  If I started to eat my dinner at 9pm I would not only have bad indigestion, I’d probably weigh about 10 pounds more than I do now! Hi Iris,

I do both.  I used to eat late dinners when I worked until 9pm so I could eat with my husband in the past.  For me, this was never a big deal.  I either eat a very light dinner at 5pm with my kids and a big snack later on, or I just have a late dinner, but I always eat before the meds. I also work out 5-6 times a week in the mornings at the gym as I’ve tended to gain weight with any of the meds in the past and I didn’t want to go that route again.  It also helps a lot with the everyday stress and gives me exposure to the rapid heart rate….rapid breathing symptoms, which I’m hoping will eventually help me prevent relapse once this goes into remission again. take care, Lene – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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Okay, after taking Zoloft for the first time last night, I felt so wired up today. How long are the side effects going to take? Why do some people have more side effects at first than others? PS make sure you eat with it.  I noticed a BIG difference in severity of side effects depending on whether I had a full stomache or not.

Good advice Lene.  I’m still working on starting my Zoloft (sigh…) and the reason I was leaning toward taking it at breakfast was to lessen the side effect possibility.  I’ve had this reaction with several other drugs. If I take them with food (if it’s an option), I always tolerate them better.  I’m not a scientist, but I think food slows the absorbtion rate, so your body can better adjust. BTW, though you said you take it at night.  Do you eat dinner late or do you take it with a snack?  If I started to eat my dinner at 9pm I would not only have bad indigestion, I’d probably weigh about 10 pounds more than I do now! Iris —

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Okay, after taking Zoloft for the first time last night, I felt so wired up today. How long are the side effects going to take?

<snipped for space I’m not a doctor but I do believe that, while there is a possibility that you are experiencing a reaction to Zoloft, it’s an infinitessimal one. Most likely you have hyped yourself up over it with anticipation. ISTM a little too early for any reaction at all, good or bad… Sad to say, we anxiety types do this all too easily — Gary Cooper

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Okay, after taking Zoloft for the first time last night, I felt so wired up today. How long are the side effects going to take? Why do some people have more side effects at first than others?

Side effects with zoloft at first are extremely common.  I’ve been on it for 10 weeks, My side effects lasted about four weeks.  However, my husband who is also on zoloft for chronic pain management had few side effects and none of the ones that I did.    I found that I had to work a bit with the time I took it, to manage the side effects better at first. Some people are just more sensitive to meds.  Myself included.  I usually have side effects to everything.  Try and keep in mind that that the side effects are a temporary situation and well worth getting through in order to give it a chance and see if this is the answer for you. PS make sure you eat with it.  I noticed a BIG difference in severity of side effects depending on whether I had a full stomache or not. take care Lene – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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Okay, after taking Zoloft for the first time last night, I felt so wired up today. How long are the side effects going to take? Why do some people have more side effects at first than others? Is it kind of a Riddlin effect.  Kids who take it and don’t need it tend to react to it differently and get hyped up.  and whereas kids who need the medication the most feel the effect immediately.    mmm.  in that case  is it true that if you’re feeling overanxious when initially using Zoloft   that you’re closer to healthy than you are sick?    just a hopeful thought

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Question:

All of you seem to have such encourement for those afflicted with this condition.  I know I have felt a lot of support reading the postings.  My husband is going through a very difficult time at the moment.  We have had 2 very emotional days, and usually this is a very strong man.  A month ago he had a heart attack and had angioplasty.  Not that the spasmodic torticollis isn’t bad enough, now he is worried about his heart also even though the cardiologist says there is no relation (I certainly question that with all the stress he has been under for the past 18 months).  He seems to be giving up telling me he can’t fight this thing anymore.  He take Baclofen and Artane and of course gets Botox every three months.  The Botox has not taken the pain away but it has allowed his head to remain in an upright position.  He suffers every waking moment with spasms and we have yet to find the right combination to relieve the pain.  Do any of you have any words of encouragement I can pass on to him.  Some of you have suffered with this for many, many years and seem to have found a way to deal with it even through you are in pain and my heart expecially goes out to the children who have to suffer with this.  Would love to hear from you and I will print the messages out and read to him as he cannot sit at the computer.  BethThanks to all of you. Virginia

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writes: He seems to be giving up telling me he can’t fight this thing anymore.  He take Baclofen and Artane and of course gets Botox every three months. The Botox has not taken the pain away but it has allowed his head to remain in an upright position.  He suffers every waking moment with spasms and we have yet to find the right combination to relieve the pain.  Do any of you have any words of encouragement I can pass on to him.  Some of you have suffered with this for many, many years and seem to have found a way to deal with it even through you are in pain and my heart expecially goes out to the children who have to suffer with this.  

I wish I could think of the right thing to say…its so hard.  I feel so bad for what you and your husband are going through.  Cant they admit him for awhile, like they did Jeremy, break the cycle and try other meds until something works?  I know what you must be going through, its so hard to watch someone you love suffer and feel so helpless.  My son has suffered for his whole 13 years of life and he often asked why I kept trying so hard to find a diagnosis and remedy….he had adjusted to it as a part of his life.  (Children adjust so much better than us adults!)  I told him that I would never give up and he was finally diagnosed about 7 months ago…..after 13 years of mis-diagnosis.  He is going through all the trials of medication and I think we have hit on a good combo now, but who knows how long it will last.   He encourages me more than I do him!  He always says *it will pass, dont worry, I’m fine*….as I bite off all my fingernails.   Since I dont know what to say….I asked for Jeremys input.  He found it hard to come up with something concrete except to say that he will pray for him, not to give up….that there is a light at the end of the tunnel sometimes, if God thought it was his time to go….he would, that he will get his reward in heaven for the suffering he has done on earth (I taught him that years ago….hes hoping heaven has alot of Super Nintendo games…you know kids) and that he has a family that loves him very much. I wish I could do better than this, but I am new at the dystonia diagnosis so I dont know exactly what can be done to find the relief he needs.  I am sure that  the more expercienced people on this newsgroup will have much better responses for you.  I just wanted you and your husband to know that we are praying for you and wishing you better days. Love, Cyndie and Jeremy

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writes: This may be a start in bombarding the networks.  

Lets do it!  And thanks for the info! Cyndie

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I finally found some addresses which I will pass along to all of you. NBC is Http://TVnet.com/tv/NYtv/wNBC.html – FAX 212-456-2290 CBS fax is, 212-975-5656 (did not locate an email address) I found a Donahue but not sure if this is Phil, it was just listed by last start in bombarding the networks.  

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Mary Beth you are wonderful!  You speak from your heart and since you have dealt with this condition for such a long time you can understand what he is going through.  I have mentioned you to Doug several times especially reinterating how long you have suffered with this, have raised a family, and, have such a terrific outlook on life.  This is a terrifying time for both of us, I try to give support and guess I am too much of an optimist. I always feel today isn’t so good, but tomorrow will be better.  Thank you for mentioning the depression after surgery, this may be what is hitting him now.  We have been the "I think I’m going crazy" route but that was due to medication which has now been corrected and he is back to normal. We do have to be careful what is prescribed because he takes so many other meds for his dystonia and the 2 doctors are not in the same group, or same city so I am the intermediary trying to make sure he is not taking drugs that will contridict each other.  I will speak with him regarding the possibility of a phone conversation I know if he could sit at this computer and read the messages posted he would find much support from all.  Thanks again for your concern, support, and very good advice. Fondly, Virginia

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Mary Beth you are wonderful!  You speak from your heart and since you have dealt with this condition for such a long time you can understand what he is going through.  I have mentioned you to Doug several times especially reinterating how long you have suffered with this, have raised a family, and, have such a terrific outlook on life.  This is a terrifying time for both of us, I try to give support and guess I am too much of an optimist. I always feel today isn’t so good, but tomorrow will be better.  Thank you for mentioning the depression after surgery, this may be what is hitting him now.  We have been the "I think I’m going crazy" route but that was due to medication which has now been corrected and he is back to normal. We do have to be careful what is prescribed because he takes so many other meds for his dystonia and the 2 doctors are not in the same group, or same city so I am the intermediary trying to make sure he is not taking drugs that will contridict each other.  I will speak with him regarding the possibility of a phone conversation I know if he could sit at this computer and read the messages posted he would find much support from all. Thanks again for your concern, support, and very good advice. Fondly, Virginia

Hi Virginia: I have ST with accompanying essential tremor, I also have panic disorder which causes depression at times for me.  Panic disorder can do a really good job of convincing you that you must be going crazy.  Tell Doug that it’s only the brightest, most brilliant minds that suffer from this kind of depression…….look at me!  <VBG  Having surgery can really knock you down hard, especially if you have other medical conditions that have to be treated properly at the same time.  I hope Doug is well on the way to recovery.  The depression will go, that I know.  No way is he going crazy.  There *will* be a cure for dystonia very soon – I’m convinced of that.  Give him a big hug from me and tell him I’m thinking of  both of you. All the best. Mally  

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Cyndie and Jeremy, Your touching note brought tears to my eyes and I want to thank you for your prayers.  I have pursued this horrible affliction much the same as you but of course not nearly as long.  I have searched for the very best medical Dr.s available and in the beginning, we he wasn’t as bad and was much stronger we would have gone anywhere to get the proper treatment, at least one that would give him relief.  We were lucky in a sense that the first neurologist we saw was familiar with dystonia and put him in touch with a doctor that was a researcher in the field and gave the botox injections.  He has not had any trouble with the blepharospasms after having 4 treatments which was back in October of 1994.  We were so hoping that the Botox would have the same affect on the torticollis, but so far it hasn’t, but we will keep trying.  We live in the Los Angeles area and there are many very fine centers and wonderful doctors here and believe me we have tried them all.  We have even been to the Mayo Clinic in Scottsdale, AZ.  All the doctors we have seen are knowledgable, but they need to come up with the right combination of meds.  My very best to you and many, many kudos to your valiant son. Virginia

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Question:

Hi.  I’ve been on Prozac fort Attention Deficit Disorder for about two months now.  I recently started having problems with insomnia. My Psychiatrist started me on trazodone (Desyrel) in the evenings to help me sleep, but I seem to be getting some bad side effects from it (indigestion, trouble concentrating, and sexual problems). Here’s my question.  It seems like Psychiatrists have a reluctance (justified I’m sure) to prescribe hypnotics or other strong sleep medications to overcome the insomnia that is fairly common with Prozac.  Does anyone out there know what is used apart from the other anti-depressants (e.g., trazodone and amitriptyline)? Has anyone actually had their Psychiatrist prescribe them Halcion or something similar? Would over-the-counter sleep medications do any good? Since I am being treated for ADD, any drugs that take a long time to wash out, or leave my mind feeling "dull" are out of the question. As always, thanks for any and all help. — | Richard S. Smith  | PROGRESS(tm) 4GL Developer | Monrovia, California  |

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: Hi.  I’ve been on Prozac fort Attention Deficit Disorder for about : two months now.  I recently started having problems with insomnia. : My Psychiatrist started me on trazodone (Desyrel) in the evenings to : help me sleep, but I seem to be getting some bad side effects from : it (indigestion, trouble concentrating, and sexual problems). : Here’s my question.  It seems like Psychiatrists have a reluctance : (justified I’m sure) to prescribe hypnotics or other strong sleep : medications to overcome the insomnia that is fairly common with : Prozac.  Does anyone out there know what is used apart from the : other anti-depressants (e.g., trazodone and amitriptyline)? : Has anyone actually had their Psychiatrist prescribe them Halcion : or something similar? : Would over-the-counter sleep medications do any good? : Since I am being treated for ADD, any drugs that take a long time to : wash out, or leave my mind feeling "dull" are out of the question. : As always, thanks for any and all help. : — : | Richard S. Smith  | PROGRESS(tm) 4GL Developer | Monrovia, California  | i’ve found a good drink helps the most. i can’t stand the feeling of sleeping pills after one night of them. drink in moderation

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: Hi.  I’ve been on Prozac fort Attention Deficit Disorder for about : two months now.  I recently started having problems with insomnia. By the time insomnia kicks in with any of these drugs, chances are the good effects are diminishing too. I question the long term use period. Halcion would give you a double whammy. It might work one or two nights a week and set you up for some unexpected side effects. If you have no physical problems, consider exercise and walks and interventionist type psychologists. Avoid Freudians. —                                              And this is where                                              they spin gold into                                              straw.

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: By the time insomnia kicks in with any of these drugs, chances are the : good effects are diminishing too. I question the long term use period. What is long term use?  I was on Prozac for 2+ years before my body started getting used to it and I had to try another SRI.  The good effects started 1 1/2 days after starting it, and I never had what I would characterize as insomnia. : If you have no physical problems, consider exercise and walks and : interventionist type psychologists. Avoid Freudians. Too bad psychologists have never been proven to work.  The changes I had in 1 1/2 days could not have been wrought by psychologists in 20 years.

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Too bad psychologists have never been proven to work.  The changes I had in 1 1/2 days could not have been wrought by psychologists in 20 years.

Hehehee.  Thank you Jeanne, I enjoyed that.  No offense intended to any professional people out there (and it certainly took me more than 1 1/2 days to see effects from my first antidepressant), but I know exactly what you mean.  :) lilo

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               ….. The best drug yet for add. Hits all 3 brain                interactions. seriton, … Helps me concentrate without                the stimatues like dexadrine, ritalitin,….                 Effexor FAQ  Version 1.0  3 March 1994                                   Index. 1. What is Effexor 2. How does Effexor differ from other antidepressants? 3. What kinds of depression can be treated with Effexor? 4. What are the side-effects of Effexor? 5. Which side effects force people to stop taking Effexor? 6. Are there any special hazards for people with bipolar disorder? 7. Does Effexor interact with other medications? 8. Does Effexor interact with alcohol? 9  Is Effexor safe for a woman who is pregnant, about to become pregnant,    or nursing an infant? 10. How is treatment with Effexor initiated? 11. What is the usual final dose of Effexor? 12. Are there withdrawal effects if Effexor is suddenly discontinued? 13. Is Effexor toxic if an overdose is taken? 14. What will Effexor cost? 15. When will Effexor be available? 16. Additions and corrections. 1. What is Effexor         Effexor is a new antidepressant with a novel chemical structure.  The chemical structure of Effexor does not resemble those of any currently used antidepressants.  Effexor is not an MAO inhibitor 2. How does Effexor differ from other antidepressants?         Effexor seems to have the relative freedom from side-effects associated with the SSRIs [fluoxetine (Prozac), sertraline (Zoloft), paroxetine (Paxil), fluvoxamine (Luvox)] and the impact on both the serotonin and norepinephrine associated with the tricyclic antidepressants (amitriptyline (Elavil), inipramine (Tofranil) etc.).  It is hypothesized that the action of the Effexor molecule upon both serotonin and norepinephrine will cause Effexor to be a successful antidepressant for some people who have not responded to treatment with SSRIs. 3. What kinds of depression can be treated with Effexor?         While the pre-marketing studies were restricted to patients with a DSM-III-R diagnosis of Major Depressive Disorder (with or without melancholia), it is to be expected that Effexor will be prescribed for patients with Dysthymia, Major Depression, and Bipolar Disorder.         Although here have been no published studies on the use of Effexor for the treatment of children and adolescents with depression, it can be expected that the drug will be prescribed for depressed children and adolescents.         No special problems were encountered when Effexor was prescribed for elderly people with depression.         While Effexor was only studied for periods of administration of up to 6-weeks, it is to expected that patients with long-standing depressions will take the drug for longer periods of time. 4. What are the side-effects of Effexor?         The most common side-effects and the percentage of people reporting them during clinical trials are:                                 Nausea                  37%                                 Headache                25%                                 Sleepiness              23%                                 Dry mouth               22%                                 Dizziness               19%                                 Insomnia                18%                                 Constipation            15%                                 Nervousness             13%                                 Fatigue                 12%                                 Sweating                12%                                 Decreased appetite      11%                                 Male sexual dysfunction 12%                                 Female sexual                                           Dysfunction    2% 5. Which side effects force people to stop taking Effexor?         In the premarketing studies  19% (537 / 2897) of depressed patients taking Effexor discontinued the medication because of side-effects. The side effects and the percentages of total patients who dropped out for each are:                                 Nausea                  6%                                 Sleepiness              3%                                 Insomnia                3%                                 Dizziness               3%                                 Male sexual dysfunction 3% *                                 Headache                2%                                 Nervousness             2%                                 Anxiety                 2%                                 Dry mouth               2%                                 Fatigue                 2%                                 Sweating                2%                                            * % of men 6. Are there any special hazards for people with bipolar disorder?         As with other antidepressants, people with bipolar disorder who are not being treated with a mood regulator such as lithium, valproate (Depakote), or carbamazepine (Tegretol), may be pushed into a manic episode when treated with Effexor. 7. Does Effexor interact with other medications?         Lithium – No interaction         Diazepam (Valium) – No interaction         Cimetidine (Tagamet) – Slight increase in blood level of         Effexor’s active metabolite.  Not of clinical significance.         Fluoxetine (Prozac) – Significant increase in the concentration         of Effexor and its active metabolite.  Potential for increased side-         effects. 8. Does Effexor interact with alcohol?         Although Effexor has not been found to increase the impairment of cognitive or motor skills caused by alcohol, the manufacturer warns against drinking while taking Effexor. 9 Is Effexor safe for a woman who is pregnant, about to become pregnant,   or nursing an infant?         There is no data to establish the safety of Effexor for the fetus   or nursing infant. 9. How is treatment with Effexor initiated?         The usual starting dose of Effexor is 75 mg a day taken in two or three divided doses with food (to minimize nausea).  If higher doses are needed, the dose should not be increased more rapidly than 75 mg every 4 days. 10. What is the usual final dose of Effexor?         While doses up to 375 mg per day are approved by the FDA, some severely depressed patients have been treated with higher doses.  Most depressed people have been found to respond to doses under 300 mg per day. 11. Are there withdrawal effects if Effexor is suddenly discontinued?         Effexor should be discontinued gradually over at least 2-weeks.  If Effexor  suddenly discontinued, a withdrawal syndrome involving fatigue, nausea, dizziness, headache, insomnia, and nervousness, may develop. 12.  Is Effexor toxic if an overdose is taken?         Fourteen overdoses of Effexor have been reported.  In some cases Effexor was taken along with alcohol and/or other medications.  All individuals who took an overdose recovered without sequelae. 13. What will Effexor cost?         Effexor will be supplied in tablets ranging from 25 to 100 mg in strength.  The 25 mg tablets cost pharmacies nearly as much as the 100 mg tablets.  It is expected that all strengths of Effexor will be sold for between $1.00 and $1.50 per tablet. 14. When will Effexor be available?         A few psychiatrists have been given small supplies of Effexor. It is expected that Effexor will be widely available by the first week of April of 1994. 15. Additions and corrections.         This FAQ was prepared by Ivan K. Goldberg, MD.  Please address —                                                                 \\         ||                             Ivan Goldberg, MD                 ~        || ||    Voice Mail = 212-744-1846      ||      Fax = 212-737-0473           || || Snail Mail = NY Psychopharmacologic Inst. 1346 Lexington Ave NYC 10128 || : Hi.  I’ve been on Prozac fort Attention Deficit Disorder for about : two months now.  I recently started having problems with insomnia. : My Psychiatrist started me on trazodone (Desyrel) in the evenings to : help me sleep, but I seem to be getting some bad side effects from : it (indigestion, trouble concentrating, and sexual problems). : Here’s my question.  It seems like Psychiatrists have a reluctance : (justified I’m sure) to prescribe hypnotics or other strong sleep : medications to overcome the insomnia that is fairly common with : Prozac.  Does anyone out there know what is used apart from the : other anti-depressants (e.g., trazodone and amitriptyline)? : Has anyone actually had their Psychiatrist prescribe them Halcion : or something similar? : Would over-the-counter sleep medications do any good? : Since I am being treated for ADD, any drugs that take a long time to : wash out, or leave my mind feeling "dull" are out of the question. : As always, thanks for any and all help. : — : | Richard S. Smith  | PROGRESS(tm) 4GL Developer | Monrovia, California  | — Scott Onofrio                            LaserJet IHV Developer Group

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Response:

(Jeanne Guidry) writes:

I just started Prozac in conjuction with Cylert and have noticed no effects after a week; moreover, my psyc said that the clinical effects probably won’t be evident for at least a month, although I might see some changes, most notably side effects, earlier.  So far, so good–no headaches, insomnia, etc. But then again, my biochem is probably different as Ritalin had little clinical effect on me.

Response: