Question:

While I readily confess to employing btb, nesting and using half round-trips, I have never done hidden city. I can see how this really upsets the airlines. You* have checked in A-(B)-C and then you disappear at B.

Are we talking about multiple-leg trips here, or true hidden stopovers such as, for instance, these UA DEN-FRA which actually involve a change of gauge at ORD? Effects: 1. Passenger count is wrong.

Not really.  They give you two boarding passes. If you didn’t board, you don’t enter the count.   So, it’s just like anyone that’s checked in but ends up not showing up or not showing up in time. 2. Agents have to page you (just listen to how many of these there are next time you travel)

When was the last time you saw anyone get paged? 3. Baggage manifest has to be checked, when it’s apparent you’re not coming.

No luggage matching in North America.  So I am sure they don’t care. Bottom line: it’s just the fare issue.

Response:

While I readily confess to employing btb, nesting and using half round-trips, I have never done hidden city. I can see how this really upsets the airlines. You* have checked in A-(B)-C and then you disappear at B. Are we talking about multiple-leg trips here, or true hidden stopovers such as, for instance, these UA DEN-FRA which actually involve a change of gauge at ORD?

Either, or the third case where it’s a through flight with a hub stopover (no plane change). Effects: 1. Passenger count is wrong. Not really.  They give you two boarding passes. If you didn’t board, you don’t enter the count.   So, it’s just like anyone that’s checked in but ends up not showing up or not showing up in time.

True. I had the through flight scenario in mind, but omitted to say so. 2. Agents have to page you (just listen to how many of these there are next time you travel) When was the last time you saw anyone get paged?

August 1, 2000. Maybe you just tune out those announcements. I hear them all the time. 3. Baggage manifest has to be checked, when it’s apparent you’re not coming. No luggage matching in North America.  So I am sure they don’t care.

Maybe no matching in the US, although I’m not sure of that. Baggage is certainly matched Canada-US transborder. Bottom line: it’s just the fare issue.

We’ll agree to differ. B.

Response:

  I don’t see how hidden city tickets generally are very useful. Once you miss the second flight (assuming two each way), return reservations are cancelled; also you can’t have checked baggage as the airline would check luggage to the ticketed destination.   So to benefit, the round trip fare A – B – C – B – A must be less than a one way A – B, and the passenger must not have checked baggage. How often does this occur? —

Response:

All the time for business travelers!!  I’m sure others have reaped a whole lot more savings than this, but last year, a co-worker needed a one way ticket to Cincinnati.  It was over $500.  A roundtrip on DL IAH-IND with a connection at CVG was $220.  This saved over $300. This works particularly well on last minute trips where the ultimate ticketed destination is a low fare compete route from the point of origin.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   I don’t see how hidden city tickets generally are very useful. Once you miss the second flight (assuming two each way), return reservations are cancelled; also you can’t have checked baggage as the airline would check luggage to the ticketed destination.   So to benefit, the round trip fare A – B – C – B – A must be less than a one way A – B, and the passenger must not have checked baggage. How often does this occur? —

Response:

 I don’t see how hidden city tickets generally are very useful. Once you miss the second flight (assuming two each way), return reservations are cancelled; also you can’t have checked baggage as the airline would check luggage to the ticketed destination.  So to benefit, the round trip fare A – B – C – B – A must be less than a one way A – B, and the passenger must not have checked baggage. How often does this occur? —

Quite often I’d say. One way fares on the ‘majors’ (like Delta who spawned this thread), are very expensive since they are all full fare (no discounts). I agree this ‘trick’ is of no use to the leisure traveller who wants to go A to B and come back again. But then they would probably never think of it, or else post to this ng asking if it can be done. B.

Response:

  I don’t see how hidden city tickets generally are very useful. Once you miss the second flight (assuming two each way), return reservations are cancelled; also you can’t have checked baggage as the airline would check luggage to the ticketed destination.   So to benefit, the round trip fare A – B – C – B – A must be less than a one way A – B, and the passenger must not have checked baggage. How often does this occur?

It happens.  An example, look at J2RTN fares from Canada to Germany and compare them with equivalent fares from the US: it’s roughly twice.  So, get a cheap B-A-B round trip.   Of course, if you are a real FF miles junkie, you might actually fly the whole thing, which might actually be legal.  But not necessarily convenient.   Or you might have a fairly convoluted travel pattern.  Which might actually require you to go to A right before your trip to C. As to luggage, often you don’t check anything.  Or if B happens to be an entry point, you get it to go through customs anyway.

Response:

All the time for business travelers!!  I’m sure others have reaped a whole lot more savings than this, but last year, a co-worker needed a one way ticket to Cincinnati.  It was over $500.  A roundtrip on DL IAH-IND with a connection at CVG was $220.  This saved over $300. This works particularly well on last minute trips where the ultimate ticketed destination is a low fare compete route from the point of origin.

And even better if said business travellers can bill the client for the full OW whack and pocket the difference. But that wouldn’t happen, would it ? B.

Response:

It is not always a certainty that the airlines will cancel your ongoing reservation if you don’t show up for a flight.  The airlines are pretty damn disorganized as it is, I’m sure you could easily persuade them to reinstate your record. In any case, as long as you check in for your first flight and receive a boarding pass for your second flight, then I doubt highly that you will find your following flights cancelled. I’ve done this before on Delta flying from STL-ATL.  The fare from STL-ATL is usually about a hundred dollars more than STL-MGM which connects in ATL anyway.  Just check in for the first flight, get boarding pass for second flight, throw away.  Then pay $19.99 to rent Budget car to drive to MGM and play golf on the way.  Fun. I have considered this for flights from STL-JFK.  The last minute fare on TWA is insane, around $1000.  However, you can buy STL-BWI with no advance for $300 that allows connecting in JFK.  Pretty crazy.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – All the time for business travelers!!  I’m sure others have reaped a whole lot more savings than this, but last year, a co-worker needed a one way ticket to Cincinnati.  It was over $500.  A roundtrip on DL IAH-IND with a connection at CVG was $220.  This saved over $300. This works particularly well on last minute trips where the ultimate ticketed destination is a low fare compete route from the point of origin. And even better if said business travellers can bill the client for the full OW whack and pocket the difference. But that wouldn’t happen, would it ? B.

Well, my said business travelers couldn’t do that because there’s no client to bill, not to mention the fact that they wouldn’t have a receipt for the higher fare

Response:

I have considered this for flights from STL-JFK.  The last minute fare on TWA is insane, around $1000.

No Herb. However, you can buy STL-BWI with no advance for $300 that allows connecting in JFK.  Pretty crazy.

The Herb effect. Bob C.

Response:

Correct me if I’m wrong, but the airlines are the ones that came up with this pricing structure in the first place, weren’t they?  As opposed as I am to the moral aspects of cheating, I don’t see this as cheating.  I maintain that I have the right to get off the plane anywhere it stops if I feel like it.  Getting back on is my option.

<snip funny rant Right you are Bill! I can’t think of any other transportation medium that uses this – I have taken the bus between Toronto and Detroit for months. If you want to get out at London Ontario, no problem. I’ve taken a cruise where my wife got too seasick to continue – she was able to get off at an intermediate stop, no problem. I can’t imagine a cab ride where you say to the cabbie "Stop I want to get out here", and he says "No we have to continue to the airport, and then I’ll bring you back here". I agree with all the posters who have said the airlines created this problem with their screwy load management pricing, and they should be forced to honour tickets that they’ve issued under these schemes. It may result in slightly higher fares, but at least I’d feel it was a ‘fair fare’. OtherKevin

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Correct me if I’m wrong, but the airlines are the ones that came up with this pricing structure in the first place, weren’t they?  As opposed as I am to the moral aspects of cheating, I don’t see this as cheating.  I maintain that I have the right to get off the plane anywhere it stops if I feel like it.  Getting back on is my option. <snip funny rant Right you are Bill! I can’t think of any other transportation medium that uses this – I have taken the bus between Toronto and Detroit for months. If you want to get out at London Ontario, no problem. I’ve taken a cruise where my wife got too seasick to continue – she was able to get off at an intermediate stop, no problem. I can’t imagine a cab ride where you say to the cabbie "Stop I want to get out here", and he says "No we have to continue to the airport, and then I’ll bring you back here".

How would your bus and cruise examples be cheating the provider out of a higher fare as is the case with hidden city ticketing? I agree with all the posters who have said the airlines created this problem with their screwy load management pricing, and they should be forced to honour tickets that they’ve issued under these schemes. It may result in slightly higher fares, but at least I’d feel it was a ‘fair fare’.

This has absolutely nothing to do with "load management pricing."  It’s all about low fare competition.  If there were no low fare carriers, there would be no need for hidden city ticketing.

Response:

FRA prices seem very high until well after Oktoberfest.

the problem though is Oktoberfest only happens in Munich.  Yea it happens to smaller degrees elsewhere but it is centered in Munich. (my liver is still hurting) Gerald Sylvester

Response:

Excellent essay as always, Bill. I think I see a flaw in your argument however. You assume the airlines set their fares in some kind of controlled, logical manner. I believe they actually use a ouija board and/or a dart-throwing chimpanzee. From time to time this procedure is circumvented by someone shouting ‘Ohmigawd, Herbie Air has lower fares form Stinksville to Megalopolis, we must match them at once’. (Of course, back in the Middle Ages there were no hidden cities because there were no hubs.) While I readily confess to employing btb, nesting and using half round-trips, I have never done hidden city. I can see how this really upsets the airlines. You* have checked in A-(B)-C and then you disappear at B. Effects: 1. Passenger count is wrong. 2. Agents have to page you (just listen to how many of these there are next time you travel) 3. Baggage manifest has to be checked, when it’s apparent you’re not coming. All of this requires totally unproductive effort on the part of the airline. And it’s not like there’s a surplus of gate agents looking for something to do. Upshot: Flight possibly delayed, inconveniencing (or worse) the other 100+ folks who unfortunately picked the same flight as you. The airlines may have created the scenario, but IMHO using hidden city is beyond the pale of ’savvy traveling’. Air travel may have evolved to resemble bus trips in many ways, but the rules *are* different. Since the judge says they can’t come after you for the money, FF miles seems to be the only lever they have. * generic ‘you’ Brian

Response:

Correct me if I’m wrong, but the airlines are the ones that came up with this pricing structure in the first place, weren’t they?  As opposed as I am to the moral aspects of cheating, I don’t see this as cheating.  I maintain that I have the right to get off the plane anywhere it stops if I feel like it.  Getting back on is my option.

I was looking at the UA web site for mid-October WAS to PAR service. The half-round-trip price is about $285 during that period.  Some of the routings had a connection at FRA.  Out of curiosity, I looked up the WAS to FRA price.  On the very same flights used for WAS-FRA-PAR, the lowest half-round-trip price was $518 if used only for WAS-FRA So I could "miss" the connection at FRA and save 45% on WAS-FRA if they didn’t catch me (which they would). If all I’d wanted was a one-way WAS-FRA, I could pay $2002 for a "legal" one-way ticket or 2*($285)=$570 and throw away three flight segments. FRA prices seem very high until well after Oktoberfest. Sounds like AA on connections through DFW vs travel ending at DFW. Bob C.

Response:

This was featured today as well on NPR evening news – how some of the bigs are trying to go after pax using hidden city tickets now, after previoulsy directing their efforts against TA’s selling these flights.  Their take was that the pax gonna pay one way or the other, if they can’t fight effectively by cancelling FF miles, adding $$ to the CC’s etc, they’ll end up just raising those tickets to make it unattractive.  They said that if hidden cities were made "legal" it would reduce revs by $6B a year, and the carriers aren’t just going to eat it. FH

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I ran across this while goofing off on CNN.com.  The court decision in favour of the traveler who DL felt owed $9000US for hidden city savings was interesting.  If it holds up, the airlines will have to change some things. http://www.cnn.com/2000/TRAVEL/VIEWS/elliott/08/23/index.html

Response:

They said that if hidden cities were made "legal" it would reduce revs by $6B a year, and the carriers aren’t just going to eat it.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but the airlines are the ones that came up with this pricing structure in the first place, weren’t they?  As opposed as I am to the moral aspects of cheating, I don’t see this as cheating.  I maintain that I have the right to get off the plane anywhere it stops if I feel like it.  Getting back on is my option.  I would agree that the airlines have the reciprical right to cancel the remainder of my trip (like my return).  What are they going to do, check my boarding pass as I get off in the "hidden" city and force me to go back to my seat? "And just where do you think you’re going?  Sorry, Mister Mattocks, but you ARE going to LAX today.  You can go hard or you can go easy, but you are going to LAX." "No, really, I just want to grab a quick bite to eat – I’ll come right back!" "We’ve heard that before.  Please sit down before we have to get ugly. We’ll bring you some cardboard to gnaw on." Yeah, that’s going to work.  I predict an increase in "passenger initiated evacuations" if they try.  What the heck, I’ve always wanted to try out one of those inflatable slides anyway. I have never actually done the "hidden city" thing, but then, I don’t pay for my plane tickets – my customers do.  If it came out of my pocket, I might do it myself. Next, they’ll be telling us that we mustn’t avail ourselves of discounted tickets by purchasing in advance, we must pay last minute full fare prices, or they may lose eleventy gazillion dollars per year.  Sorry, they make the rules, we dance.  If they left a loophole, them’s the breaks.  They can fix it, assuming that they still have employees who know how to write. These are the same guys who have no problem if I have to fly through three layovers when I could have had a non-stop, except the triple hop was cheaper.  They could have saved money by flying me straight through, and I would have been happier as well, but NOOOOO!  These are the same guys who have been euphemistically telling the nation with a straight face that putting stranded airline passengers on a bus or train to their destination (and not refunding a penny, natch) is just fine, they are honoring their commitment, because the airlines are now a "complete travel solution."  Bite me. Recently on a trip to California, the local Best Buy chain there offered a $400 discount on anything in the store if the purchaser would sign up for 4 years of MSN service at a certain rate.  They’ve been doing that promotion all over the US.  The thing is, in California there is some obscure little law that allows consumers to cancel such contracts without recourse within a certain period of time, or something like that – I read it in the paper, but didn’t get the whole story.  So, for a couple of days, people were lining up to get their "free" TV’s and air conditioners, signing up for MSN, and then going home and cancelling the contract.  Best Buy dumped that promotion pronto, of course, but they did honor their mistake while it lasted. If the IRS in all their wisdom sees fit to grant tax-free status to people named Bob who are left-handed, and a few hundred million people petition the courts to change their name and start signing their new name funny, are they dishonest?  No, just confused and hard to call to supper. I can’t comprehend the whining attitude of the airlines in this respect. "Aw, you figured out a loophole in our freaky and confusing pricing scheme. You must be punished." A boot to the head for the dunderheads who thought up the idea of blaming the customer for working within their system to his or her own advantage. I just want to be sure I have this straight: Plane late?  Passengers to blame, they don’t show up on time, they board too slowly. Irate employees?  Passengers to blame, they have bad attitudes and they yell at innocent airline employees. Not enough planes?  Passengers to blame, they fly too much. Prices too high?  Passengers to blame, they look for discounts and ways to legally save money. Good idea, airlines.  Poke the bear with a stick.  Now that the entire nation hates you and holds you responsible for the state of commercial airline travel in the US, you should tell us it is all our fault, and then take us to court or send us $9,000 bills for exploiting your own screwy pricing structures.  Why don’t you just hang signs out in the airports that say "Passengers suck, and everything is your own damned fault!"  We peasants like that.  Don’t worry, we’ll eat cake if we have no bread. Yes, "hidden city" ticketing will drive the airlines out of business…and it is about time. Best Regards, Bill Mattocks

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Question:

Oh you poor soul.  No one should have the daily pain that you have.  Does your doctor ever tell you about anti- seizure drugs like Neurontin, etc.?  I was having daily headaches (always started at 5:00 p.m.).  I am also bipolar and when my psychiatrist prescribed Neurontin and ramped me up to 800 mg four times a day, the headaches mysteriously went away.  They started getting less painful until one day I noticed, they were just gone.  I do have the beginning of migraines about once a month, or when I get blasted by loud noise or bright flickering lights, but with the Neurontin, a Bellamine-S and Esgic Plus pretty much nip it in the bud. Neurontin carries very few side effects, maybe you will sleep a lot better, and the few it does have. your body gets used to. I told my doctor once, "We who have migraines–if you would offer us a million dollars or to never have another headache, we would take the never have another headache."  His face showed that he finally understood our plight. I sincerely hope you can find something that works for you.  BTW, the Neurontin is good for nerve pain other places, too.  You poor thing.  You don’t deserve this. Val in Boise

Response:

Chuck,     I am  in the same situation I have had nonstop pain in my head too I’m on my 9th year of this.I am 30, and when I had my 3rd{last} child afterward I just started having pain that was sheer h*!!. It just kept intensifying,.I am usually  pretty nauseas for a lot of the time. I am taking Phenerghan for it. I am so sensitive to many medications. Ones that don’t work,or makeme worse  etc. . I have pain through my whole body. I have Fibromyalgia, Where you hurt at the pressure points located throughout your body. I have Neuropathy as well which is like going around droppingthings, or mylegs just give out, when walking.  I alsohave Rheaumatoid  Arthritis I can tell whenwe are going toget bad weather. Because ofmy body hurting so bad.  You mightbeable to doa google search and type in  diferent words, ya know like Chronic Pain.. Here  is a link if you’re interested inchecking it out. Its not only for people suffering, but for the ones that see them and feel bad about it. Their’ friend or family member or anyone else. It is a wonderful support group. http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/chronicpainstories/   I hope that things start getting better for everyone!!!  Ican’t wait till we get warm weather again.  We are getting ready tobuild an edition on to our trailer. When we get done it will look just like an average house. Wegot some footers dug a little. I am notgoing to be able todo too much, because ofbeing disabled. I’m under drs.orders to not drive. That sucks. I get auras where everything gets pitch black or blinding excruciating bright white. Imostly wear  sunglasses. So depressed. But hey I’m dealing withit. Starting to stand up , take action. For ourrights,For  the DEA to quit sticking their noses where they don’t belong. It is all of ourdutyto speak up. They are trying totake pain medicine away from everyone suffering to the point of needing toget treated by drs. Take care Chuck, and everyone else reading this. A friend of mine has had an intense headache for the last 3 years – it varies in intensity, but on a scale from 1 – 10 he’s averaging a 7. It started suddenly and never stops. He often has attacks (3 or 4 a week) where the headache quickly get worse, and he passes out from the pain and is totally unresponsive. Before this happens, he usually complains that his arm hurts. He’s gone to tonnes of doctors – neurologists, dieticians, psychiatrists, accupuncture, tried diets to eliminate food groups and allergens, had MRI’s and cat scans and spinal taps. Tried all sorts of drugs –  morphine and other pain killers, anti-siezure, etc. Nothing has helped and no one has any idea what’s going on. He’s healthy otherwise and very rarely had headaches before this one. Anyone have any similar experiences, or helpful suggestions? Chuck A friend of mine has had an intense headache for the last 3 years – it varies in intensity, but on a scale from 1 – 10 he’s averaging a 7. It started suddenly and never stops. He often has attacks (3 or 4 a week) where the headache quickly get worse, and he passes out from the pain and is totally unresponsive. Before this happens, he usually complains that his arm hurts. He’s gone to tonnes of doctors – neurologists, dieticians, psychiatrists, accupuncture, tried diets to eliminate food groups and allergens, had MRI’s and cat scans and spinal taps. Tried all sorts of drugs –  morphine and other pain killers, anti-siezure, etc. Nothing has helped and no one has any idea what’s going on. He’s healthy otherwise and very rarely had headaches before this one. Anyone have any similar experiences, or helpful suggestions? Chuck A friend of mine has had an intense headache for the last 3 years – it varies in intensity, but on a scale from 1 – 10 he’s averaging a 7. It started suddenly and never stops. He often has attacks (3 or 4 a week) where the headache quickly get worse, and he passes out from the pain and is totally unresponsive. Before this happens, he usually complains that his arm hurts. He’s gone to tonnes of doctors – neurologists, dieticians, psychiatrists, accupuncture, tried diets to eliminate food groups and allergens, had MRI’s and cat scans and spinal taps. Tried all sorts of drugs –  morphine and other pain killers, anti-siezure, etc. Nothing has helped and no one has any idea what’s going on. He’s healthy otherwise and very rarely had headaches before this one. Anyone have any similar experiences, or helpful suggestions?

Response:

Neurontin carries very few side effects, maybe you will sleep a lot better, and the few it does have. your body gets used to.

Hi Val, I too have fibromyalgia and at one point my doc prescribed neurontin, it seems to be the drug of choice for prevention and control of fms symptoms. However, recently there were 2 class action lawsuit against the manufacturers of Neurontin.  It seems that one of the side effects of this drug is suicidal (or homicidal depending on your state of mind I guess) tendencies.  since one of the problems of fms is major clinical depression it is something that shouldn’t be taken lightly.  I’d talk to your doc about weighing the benefits. The second lawsuit has to do with the fact that 80% of the neurontin prescriptions were for conditions that the drug was not approved for.  I’m including a statement here about that.  You can also do a search for neurontin lawsuit and read a little more about it. Hate to be the bearer of bad news Good Luck, Karen Neurontin lawsuit Neurontin – Neurontin was approved for sale in the mid-1990s as a treatment for epileptic seizures. However it is believed that approximately 80 percent of all Neurontin prescriptions were filled for unapproved medical conditions. Neurontin is also believed to be linked to suicidal behavior. It is believed that Parke-Davis which was acquired by Pfizer in 2000 had a systematic strategy to market and promote Neurontin for untested uses, such as chronic pain, bipolar disorder and migraine. It is not illegal for a doctor to prescribe a drug for unapproved conditions, however it is illegal for a drug company to market a medication for unapproved uses. In July 2003, Dateline broadcasted an investigation which accused Parke-Davis of deliberately falsifying medical information about Neurontin so doctors would prescribe the drug to treat "off-label" conditions. State and Federal prosecutors have launched investigations into the allegedly illegal marketing of Neurontin. In its year-long investigation, Dateline interviewed a former Parke-Davis scientist who alleges company officials encouraged him to persuade physicians to prescribe Neurontin for a number of disorders, including attention deficit disorder and bipolar disease, even though there was minimal preliminary data indicating that Neurontin could help patients with those diseases. In May 2003, The US attorney’s office in Boston said in court documents that the drug company Parke-Davis, now Pfizer, gave illegal kickbacks to doctors, including trips to Puerto Rico and tickets to the 1996 Summer Olympics, to prescribe what has become the nation’s best-selling anticonvulsant, Neurontin. Below is a list of the unapproved conditions that Neurontin was marketed to treat: The 11 illegally promoted unapproved uses for Neurontin are: *Bipolar Disorder *Pain Syndromes, Peripheral Neuropathy, and Diabetic Neuropathy *Treatment of Epilepsy alone (as monotherapy) *Reflex Sympathetic Dystrophy (RSD) *Attention Deficit Disorder (ADD) *Restless Leg Syndrome (RLS) *Trigeminal Neuralgia *Post-Hepatic Neuralgia (PHN) *Essential Tremor Periodic Limb Movement *Migraine *Drug and Alcohol Withdrawal Seizures

Response:

UnfortunatelyVal,   I   am  already on it. I take 1800 mgs. aday,, No help from it.  Thanks though. I’m gladto hearthat they help you  some. Take Care, migraine momma – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Oh you poor soul.  No one should have the daily pain that you have.  Does your doctor ever tell you about anti- seizure drugs like Neurontin, etc.?  I was having daily headaches (always started at 5:00 p.m.).  I am also bipolar and when my psychiatrist prescribed Neurontin and ramped me up to 800 mg four times a day, the headaches mysteriously went away.  They started getting less painful until one day I noticed, they were just gone.  I do have the beginning of migraines about once a month, or when I get blasted by loud noise or bright flickering lights, but with the Neurontin, a Bellamine-S and Esgic Plus pretty much nip it in the bud. Neurontin carries very few side effects, maybe you will sleep a lot better, and the few it does have. your body gets used to. I told my doctor once, "We who have migraines–if you would offer us a million dollars or to never have another headache, we would take the never have another headache."  His face showed that he finally understood our plight. I sincerely hope you can find something that works for you.  BTW, the Neurontin is good for nerve pain other places, too.  You poor thing.  You don’t deserve this. Val in Boise

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Question:

Hanging on by my nails.  Moved to Georgia.  My ex and Maria came too to try to keep family together for her.  I am assistant to a professor and go back out for teaching this season (next month) if can get energy up . . . could not handle effexor withdrawal so I put myself back on this weekend.  I need my zyprexa, but can’t have it.  Side effects put me in this damn wheel chair.  Not a single friend here.  I know Aware here, but not together enough to ask to meet yet.  Hard time doing my work — any work — really feel scared and hopeless and I am so aware that in the end the sick must have willpower or they can simply end up on a curb with dirty matted hair . . . very scared. Rosena  

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Hanging on by my nails.  Moved to Georgia.  My ex and Maria came too to try to keep family together for her.  I am assistant to a professor and go back out for teaching this season (next month) if can get energy up . . . could not handle effexor withdrawal so I put myself back on this weekend.  I need my zyprexa, but can’t have it.  Side effects put me in this damn wheel chair.  Not a single friend here.  I know Aware here, but not together enough to ask to meet yet.  Hard time doing my work — any work — really feel scared and hopeless and I am so aware that in the end the sick must have willpower or they can simply end up on a curb with dirty matted hair . . . very scared. Rosena  

hi rosena.  i’m in sc.  met aware once,  she is nice.  mabey we could have an atlanta meet? dennis Death Be Not Proud by John Donne: Death be not proud, though some have called thee Mighty and dreadful, for, thou art not so,

Response:

Hanging on by my nails.  Moved to Georgia.  My ex and Maria came too to try to keep family together for her.  I am assistant to a professor and go back out for teaching this season (next month) if can get energy up . . . could not handle effexor withdrawal so I put myself back on this weekend.  I need my zyprexa, but can’t have it.  Side effects put me in this damn wheel chair. Not a single friend here.  I know Aware here, but not together enough to ask to meet yet.  Hard time doing my work — any work — really feel scared and hopeless and I am so aware that in the end the sick must have willpower or they can simply end up on a curb with dirty matted hair . . . very scared. Rosena  

Hello ) Sorry you’re having it so tough at the moment – but good luck with the new job! Whiskery Hugs {{{{{Rosena}}}}} — —  Whiskers

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i am slowly going insane being invisible

But you’re NOT, you’re probably lonely. My therp reminds me all the time: "Social isolation is considered severe punishment in prison."

Response:

i am slowly going insane being invisible

Honey, I wasn’t even here yesterday.  But I am now, and you’re not invisible. ***** Melissa "The wood is tired, and the wood is old. But we’ll make it fine if the weather holds. But if the weather holds, then we’ll have missed the point. That’s where I need to go." –Indigo Girls

Response:

i am slowly going insane being invisible

Response:

i am slowly going insane being invisible

I can see you. Mary Beth

Response:

Well met, Adam. Boy ARE you in the right place. Birds of a feather and all that. I hate the insomnia. It sucks the most because I know next comes the deep depression.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, i am new to this group, and from what i have read so far i will fit in just cosy. I have now been up for 47 hours, and although i am real tired as soon as my head hits the pillow i wake up again. The thought s in my head just dont stop.. You are useless, whats the point, nobody wants you… you cant even committ suicide without screwing up….so i sit here in front of my pc moping, waching the weekend drift by, not seeing anyone, not talking to any one. Occasionaly speaking on icq to an aquaintance, but then they rush off and do stuff constructive in their busy lives, and i sit and clean out my hard drive. Tomorrow is Monday, and i return to work. carry out the day and return to my pc….God I am so sad… what is the point??

Response:

Welcome to the jungle! Welcome to the jungle! It’s gonna bring you down. huh!     Guns and Roses Sorry just being dramatic.  :^) Gloria

Response:

Well, i am new to this group, and from what i have read so far i will fit in just cosy. I have now been up for 47 hours, and although i am real tired as soon as my head hits the pillow i wake up again. The thought s in my head just dont stop.. You are useless, whats the point, nobody wants you… you cant even committ suicide without screwing up….so i sit here in front of my pc moping, waching the weekend drift by, not seeing anyone, not talking to any one. Occasionaly speaking on icq to an aquaintance, but then they rush off and do stuff constructive in their busy lives, and i sit and clean out my hard drive. Tomorrow is Monday, and i return to work. carry out the day and return to my pc….God I am so sad… what is the point??

Welcome to ASD. Sincerely Stewart — The Metaphor Man  *and*  The Great Defender of the Self (remove the SPAMBLOCK) Please send me an e-mail copy of your posted response.

Response:

Well, i am new to this group, and from what i have read so far i will fit in just cosy. I have now been up for 47 hours, and although i am real tired as soon as my head hits the pillow i wake up again. The thought s in my head just dont stop.. You are useless, whats the point, nobody wants you… you cant even committ suicide without screwing up….so i sit here in front of my pc moping, waching the weekend drift by, not seeing anyone, not talking to any one. Occasionaly speaking on icq to an aquaintance, but then they rush off and do stuff constructive in their busy lives, and i sit and clean out my hard drive. Tomorrow is Monday, and i return to work. carry out the day and return to my pc….God I am so sad… what is the point??

Response:

Welcome to ASD.  I am in the minority concerning sleep habits.  When I go into "the pit," I become hypersomniac.  A couple years ago, I went through a stretch in which I slept 14-15 hours per day.  Of course, the waking hours were living hell.  Plus, that much sleep (fitful sleep, I might add) is disorienting. It seems to have the end effect of no sleep at all.  Anyway, I hope you get some sleep.  Keep posting. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, i am new to this group, and from what i have read so far i will fit in just cosy. I have now been up for 47 hours, and although i am real tired as soon as my head hits the pillow i wake up again. The thought s in my head just dont stop.. You are useless, whats the point, nobody wants you… you cant even committ suicide without screwing up….so i sit here in front of my pc moping, waching the weekend drift by, not seeing anyone, not talking to any one. Occasionaly speaking on icq to an aquaintance, but then they rush off and do stuff constructive in their busy lives, and i sit and clean out my hard drive. Tomorrow is Monday, and i return to work. carry out the day and return to my pc….God I am so sad… what is the point??

Before you buy.

Response:

Thank you all for the greetings, i dozed off at the keyboard. Lillith I am there. I am alienating the friends i have, and i dont mean to

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well met, Adam. Boy ARE you in the right place. Birds of a feather and all that. I hate the insomnia. It sucks the most because I know next comes the deep depression.

Response:

Question:

now, my doctor wants to take me off the effexor to see if it is the problem… i have already slipped backwards because of all this and new financial problems created by my ex— i am scared to death to go off the effexor.

Also, think about getting a second opinion on the drug issues from a psychiatrist. Bruce.

Response:

things have slowly deteriorating health wise for me… nothing deadly like cancer — i just feel dead.  i think my metabolism is running on empty. after a slew of testing nothing has been found yet…

((((((((((((((Donna)))))))))))))))) As I’m sure you’ve read, that isn’t one of the common side effects of effexor, but everyone is different.  Make sure you’re not taking any over-the-counter (e.g. St John’s Wort) or prescription drugs that might be interacting with the effexor. i am so disgusted.  all i know is, if this is how it feels to be 46 i’d rather be dead.

No, this is NOT how 46 feels!  There is nothing about getting older that makes us feel bad.  It’s the bumps in the road along the way that can drag us down.  But it’s always temporary.  Sooner or later we figure out what’s wrong and set it right.  Please hang on! now, my doctor wants to take me off the effexor to see if it is the problem… i have already slipped backwards because of all this and new financial problems created by my ex— i am scared to death to go off the effexor.

What dosage are you on?  It’s hard to guess because too little Effexor can worsen depression and with it fatigue, but it’s also a possible side effect of the effexor so it’s very difficult to even guess.  I’ve read that lethargy is not usually associated with effexor, so the symptoms and stress you are under sounds more like increasing the dosage might be more appropriate.  Or if the effexor is pooping out on you, switching to another AD drug like Welbutrin.. And with all that stress you’re under, don’t forget that alcohol can  worsen depression. And if you do try to stop the Effexor, remember to do it SLOWLY!!  Take several weeks at least.  The withdrawal symptoms can worsen fatigue if you don’t go slowly. i don’t want to fall down further.   i can’t, i won’t want to get back up.

Just remember that it does and WILL get better.  Not as quickly as any sufferer of depression would like, but it DOES get better.  So hang in there and keep fighting. Bruce.

Response:

I don’t blame you for not wanting to go off the Effexor. I have Addison’s Disease, and I don’t know where I’d be without Effexor. I tried Celexa before, which didn’t work at all. At this point I’m considering switching to something different, but I’m not sure if that’s a good idea. My depression has got much worse in recent months, so perhaps changing drugs is not the right way… What is your dosage? I’m on 150mg/day… Sincerely, Daniel in Tulsa

Response:

hello… and thank you for your kind words.  sorry i can’t reply to each of your messages individually, but i lost your posts when i upgraded to explorer 6 last night.  it was so nice to see so many names i recognized~ rj, bruce, ed p, cindi– she’s back  – and nice to meet jim. things have slowly deteriorating health wise for me… nothing deadly like cancer — i just feel dead.  i think my metabolism is running on empty. after a slew of testing nothing has been found yet…  i am so disgusted.  all i know is, if this is how it feels to be 46 i’d rather be dead.   now, my doctor wants to take me off the effexor to see if it is the problem… i have already slipped backwards because of all this and new financial problems created by my ex— i am scared to death to go off the effexor. i don’t want to fall down further.   i can’t, i won’t want to get back up. — ~i’m so popular ’round here i’ve forgotten my own name~ ASD Birthday Pages<http://www.geocities.com/asdbday/ April Love Pages <http://www.geocities.com/Broadway/Booth/9337/

Response:

Question:

I used to have the same side effects. It lasted long, at least a month. I wasn’t working at that time. About an hour after taking 10mg I got pale and sweaty on the face, extremely sleepy and had a terrible headache. Cofee helped me a lot, that I normally don’t drink cause it boosts my anxiety when in stressful situations. I felt better taking Paxil early in the morning or in the night; the worst in the afternoon (It’ still like that). Nowadays (after a year) I get a bit drowsy with a headache after taking Paxil, but not more often than once a week, especially when I take it irregulary. boasss

Response:

Well, I guess that I am certainly living proof that side affects don’t "affect" everyone.   I’ve been on Paxil for over a year now, and have nothing but positive things about it.   It does work, and it does help.  If the side effects are too much, that’s one thing, but just because a few people get them doesn’t mean you will! "sssboa" <sss…@goto.hell.pl

wrote in message

news:9hdu8m$slm$1@news.tpi.pl… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

I used to have the same side effects. It lasted long, at least a month. I wasn’t working at that time. About an hour after taking 10mg I got pale

and

sweaty on the face, extremely sleepy and had a terrible headache. Cofee helped me a lot, that I normally don’t drink cause it boosts my anxiety

when

in stressful situations. I felt better taking Paxil early in the morning

or

in the night; the worst in the afternoon (It’ still like that). Nowadays (after a year) I get a bit drowsy with a headache after taking Paxil, but not more often than once a week, especially when I take it irregulary. boasss

Response:

I don’t consider my side-effects serious after all. boasss

Response:

           Man,  I just started paxil yesterday and all I have been doing is sleeping.  Good thing I had yesterday and today off from work.  I am sleeping more now than I did from depression.  And when I am sleeping I am OUT.  Laid down for a nap tonight at 7:30pm cause I couldn’t keep my eyes open and the next thing I knew it was 11pm. Damn.  Anyone else have this side effect?  I hope it goes away.  I also have a slight headache right at my forehead but I don’t know if that is from too much sleep or the meds.

Response:

meow wrote:

           Man,  I just started paxil yesterday and all I have been doing is sleeping.  Good thing I had yesterday and today off from work.  I am sleeping more now than I did from depression.  And when I am sleeping I am OUT.  Laid down for a nap tonight at 7:30pm cause I couldn’t keep my eyes open and the next thing I knew it was 11pm. Damn.  Anyone else have this side effect?  I hope it goes away.  I also have a slight headache right at my forehead but I don’t know if that is from too much sleep or the meds.

The head ache can be a side effect of paxil as well as the sleeping. At what time of the day are you taking the drug? Try to take all your dose before you go to bed. If it doesn’t matter when you take it, i.e. you are sleepy all day then I would try another drug. I used to get sleepy from taking paxil and a headache sometimes. Richard

Response:

In article <ncqijtsfejqfv4jp0f616an32tnjpfg…@4ax.com

, meow <nospammeo…@rochester.com writes:            Man,  I just started paxil yesterday and all I have been doing is sleeping.  Good thing I had yesterday and today off from work.  I am sleeping more now than I did from depression.  And when I am sleeping I am OUT.  Laid down for a nap tonight at 7:30pm cause I couldn’t keep my eyes open and the next thing I knew it was 11pm. Damn.  Anyone else have this side effect?  I hope it goes away.  I also have a slight headache right at my forehead but I don’t know if that is from too much sleep or the meds.

Paxil had me so out of it that if I wasn’t sleeping, I had to be flat on my back to avoid getting queezy.  Take a good look at the side effects list for paxil.  I found that I suffered practically all of them.  Worse still was coming off of it.  I had become so dependant that standing up became a challenge – I’d suddenly have my equilibrium jolt off one way or another and practically fall over.  This happened for MONTHS after getting off of it. If you can at all avoid it, stay away from the stuff and go with something less volatile.  I’m on effexir now, and while missing a day leaves me cranky as all get-out, it is night-and-day better than paxil ever was.         rOn

Response:

Paxil had me so out of it that if I wasn’t sleeping, I had to be flat on my back to avoid getting queezy.  Take a good look at the side effects list for paxil.  I found that I suffered practically all of them.  Worse still was coming off of it.  I had become so dependant that standing up became a challenge – I’d suddenly have my equilibrium jolt off one way or another and practically fall over.  This happened for MONTHS after getting off of it.

rOn:

If you can at all avoid it, stay away from the stuff and go with something less volatile.  I’m on effexir now, and while missing a day leaves me cranky as all get-out, it is night-and-day better than paxil ever was.

I went from Paxil to Effexor, too. I agree, it’s ten times better. Thing is, though (according to my doc), you should never miss an Effexor dose AT ALL.Yah, it will make you cranky. For my kids’ sake, I make sure I refill early. JLeon

Response:

Question:

Richard: My psychiatrist just increased my Prozac to 30MG per day.  He’s reluctant to switch me to anything else since I had previously had a good response from Prozac.  Just be careful in increasing doses….. I was told that as doses of SSRIs increase, so does the risk of seizures.  I would assume that the doses would have to be tremendously high, but it may be worth it to have your serum levels of Prozac tested.  Finally, you may have to pay out of pocket for the test as most insurance companies still consider testing serum levels of Prozac to be experimental.  I haven’t had my blood drawn yet, so I’ll find out if United will or will not pay. Jeff

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jeff,      Thank you. I take 3×20mg Prozac with oxycontin and dilaudid. I thought that I was not getting the same relief from depression as when I use to take only 20 mg Prozac before I was hurt. Very interesting. I hate to switch to a tri-cyclic a-d,  but I might have to. I’ll check with my doc. Thanks Peace,   Richard Sullivan

Response:

  There is a question that I need to find out from any of you (inyour experiences – or any pain mgmt. MDs out there) about what I can expectfrom the Oxycontin.  I am currently taking 20MG twice a day.  It makes thepain tolerable, but doesn’t really erase it.  Is this the best that I should expect?

Your doc could titrate your meds up til you get the relief you need.  Also, he could prescribe something for breakthru pain, such as MSIR,or  OXYir.

Response:

Richard: Thank you SO much for taking the time to write.  To add to this information that seems to be little discussed, my Psychiatrist told me about some of the downsides to pain meds: ravenous appetite decreased libido dry mucus membranes (from the anticholinergic <sp? effects) personality change (anywhere from mild to severe) Plus, anyone out there on any anti-depressants, particularly the SSRI (Prozac, Effexor, etc), you may want to have your doc have serum levels for all meds taken.  Evidently, Oxycontin and these SSRI meds use the SAME liver enzyme pathway (P450) for metabolism.  Depending on the individual person, you may not receive the full benefits from one of the meds as the other one is "winning" out for dominance in the bloodstream.  Also, I was cautioned NOT to take Elavil (Amytriptoline) as an adjunct for pain mgmt as Oxycodone will increase the serum levels of Elavil as much as 400%. I’m not an MD, nor a pharmacist, but I thought that I’d share this info from personal experience. Thanks again for your help! Jeff

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jeff,      I guess it depends on what is ailing us, but on my first visit to my pain clinic, the evaluating Doc told me I would always have pain. He told me I would have remissions where the pain is so low it is like there is none. Not to be a downer but as someone recently said, that’s why we are called chronic. As far as Oxycontin, I have had good luck with it 6 months as my main med. I have never found it to be much longer lasting than 4 or 5 hours, but I like the fact it is clean of additives. After being moved up to where I could take 80 mg 4/day, I still wake up with a pain " alarm clock ". Right know I am shooting for a reduction in my average daily pain. Something we don’t talk alot about is something you brought up. I have gained over 40lbs since I got hurt. One of my meds has given me a sweet tooth, and my suspicion has always been on the oxycontin. Good luck. Peace, Richard

Response:

Jeff,      Thank you. I take 3×20mg Prozac with oxycontin and dilaudid. I thought that I was not getting the same relief from depression as when I use to take only 20 mg Prozac before I was hurt. Very interesting. I hate to switch to a tri-cyclic a-d,  but I might have to. I’ll check with my doc. Thanks Peace,   Richard Sullivan

Response:

Jeff, I too was started on 20mg. Within 6 months I was taking 160 mg. every 6 to 8 hours (and even that wasn’t holding me, when the Dr. asked me  to tell him Honestly was it holding) I soon saw that in the end it came to taking the pain medicine same rate as I was taking short acting meds.I went off of oxycontin when I had to take 560mg. a day. My Doc.. believes in giving what it takes and knows  it’s not some personal vendetta towards him that my tolerance is high. For some Oxycontin works very, very well. For me I was put on 300mg of methadone a day along with 16 mg. of daludid(?) up to every 4 hours.(which is to much for me, knocks me out. (My docs say I have a system the size of a large You WILL find the right dose for yourself. Just be honest with your pain doc. Let us know how you are doing – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dear all: After 3 years of chronic pain, 2 failed back surgeries at L4/5 and a herniated disc at C5/6, I finally took my physical therapist’s advise and went to my neurologist for pain management.  He’s a super MD and is willing to work with me with the meds.  I am going to have a last stab at epidurals with a new, top-notch anesthesiologist at a private hospital where I live. At any rate, it looks as though I will have to be on opiate pain meds for a LONG time.  There is a question that I need to find out from any of you (in your experiences – or any pain mgmt. MDs out there) about what I can expect from the Oxycontin.  I am currently taking 20MG twice a day.  It makes the pain tolerable, but doesn’t really erase it.  Is this the best that I should expect?  Or, should I be expecting total relief from pain?  I am reluctant to take high doses due to the "lovely" side-effects that I already have – weight gain, sleep disturbance, etc. Any advice or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. TIA, Jeff

Response:

Thank you for taking the time to write a response….  just to give additional info, a neurosurgeon did the second operation at the lumbar area. The MRI and Myelogram showed that there is considerable scar tissue not only on the disc, but also on the nerve root itself.  When they did an EMG study, it showed the first level of nerve damage.  I have a feeling that’s why they’re reluctant to do any further surgeries.  If you know of any websites that would be useful in my researching new and cutting-edge procedures, I would REALLY appreciate it as my docs are grateful that I take an active part in my treatment and welcome the research that I find. Thanks again, Jeff

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jeff, If Oxycontin completely erased pain, I think it would be touted as the "Miracle Drug"!  It helps me greatly, but never totally takes the pain away. When you say that you are going to be on Opiates for a long, long time, –may I make a suggestion?  Do with it what you please, but, I had one failed surgery before I met my neuro-surgeon (an orthopaedic surgeon did the failed surgery) and at that time had the same opinion as you, "I am NEVER having surgery again" and "I will just take the pills for the rest of my life"…although taking them again at some point in time may be inevitable, I think you owe yourself a chance at letting your neuro take a shot at fixing it.  I did and what a difference!  It has been 5 weeks now since I have had surgery, and the difference was noticed the same day that I had surgery.  My back is not yet perfect, it may never be, but I am not having to take opiates at this time, I feel like I have my brain back. I don’t know, I just thought to myself, I don’t want to be "ruled" by a little pill for the rest of my life if at all possible, if this operation works, yay! if it helps, good! and well, if it does not make the difference, well, then I am no worse off than I was before. Food for thought, I hope this helps, good luck! Cfische Dear all: After 3 years of chronic pain, 2 failed back surgeries at L4/5 and a herniated disc at C5/6, I finally took my physical therapist’s advise and went to my neurologist for pain management.  He’s a super MD and is willing to work with me with the meds.  I am going to have a last stab at epidurals with a new, top-notch anesthesiologist at a private hospital where I live. At any rate, it looks as though I will have to be on opiate pain meds for a LONG time.  There is a question that I need to find out from any of you (in your experiences – or any pain mgmt. MDs out there) about what I can expect from the Oxycontin.  I am currently taking 20MG twice a day.  It makes the pain tolerable, but doesn’t really erase it.  Is this the best that I should expect?  Or, should I be expecting total relief from pain?  I am reluctant to take high doses due to the "lovely" side-effects that I already have – weight gain, sleep disturbance, etc. Any advice or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. TIA, Jeff

Response:

Jeff,      I guess it depends on what is ailing us, but on my first visit to my pain clinic, the evaluating Doc told me I would always have pain. He told me I would have remissions where the pain is so low it is like there is none. Not to be a downer but as someone recently said, that’s why we are called chronic. As far as Oxycontin, I have had good luck with it 6 months as my main med. I have never found it to be much longer lasting than 4 or 5 hours, but I like the fact it is clean of additives. After being moved up to where I could take 80 mg 4/day, I still wake up with a pain " alarm clock ". Right know I am shooting for a reduction in my average daily pain. Something we don’t talk alot about is something you brought up. I have gained over 40lbs since I got hurt. One of my meds has given me a sweet tooth, and my suspicion has always been on the oxycontin. Good luck. Peace, Richard

Response:

Jeff, If Oxycontin completely erased pain, I think it would be touted as the "Miracle Drug"!  It helps me greatly, but never totally takes the pain away. When you say that you are going to be on Opiates for a long, long time, –may I make a suggestion?  Do with it what you please, but, I had one failed surgery before I met my neuro-surgeon (an orthopaedic surgeon did the failed surgery) and at that time had the same opinion as you, "I am NEVER having surgery again" and "I will just take the pills for the rest of my life"…although taking them again at some point in time may be inevitable, I think you owe yourself a chance at letting your neuro take a shot at fixing it.  I did and what a difference!  It has been 5 weeks now since I have had surgery, and the difference was noticed the same day that I had surgery.  My back is not yet perfect, it may never be, but I am not having to take opiates at this time, I feel like I have my brain back. I don’t know, I just thought to myself, I don’t want to be "ruled" by a little pill for the rest of my life if at all possible, if this operation works, yay! if it helps, good! and well, if it does not make the difference, well, then I am no worse off than I was before. Food for thought, I hope this helps, good luck! Cfische

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dear all: After 3 years of chronic pain, 2 failed back surgeries at L4/5 and a herniated disc at C5/6, I finally took my physical therapist’s advise and went to my neurologist for pain management.  He’s a super MD and is willing to work with me with the meds.  I am going to have a last stab at epidurals with a new, top-notch anesthesiologist at a private hospital where I live. At any rate, it looks as though I will have to be on opiate pain meds for a LONG time.  There is a question that I need to find out from any of you (in your experiences – or any pain mgmt. MDs out there) about what I can expect from the Oxycontin.  I am currently taking 20MG twice a day.  It makes the pain tolerable, but doesn’t really erase it.  Is this the best that I should expect?  Or, should I be expecting total relief from pain?  I am reluctant to take high doses due to the "lovely" side-effects that I already have – weight gain, sleep disturbance, etc. Any advice or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. TIA, Jeff

Response:

Dear all: After 3 years of chronic pain, 2 failed back surgeries at L4/5 and a herniated disc at C5/6, I finally took my physical therapist’s advise and went to my neurologist for pain management.  He’s a super MD and is willing to work with me with the meds.  I am going to have a last stab at epidurals with a new, top-notch anesthesiologist at a private hospital where I live. At any rate, it looks as though I will have to be on opiate pain meds for a LONG time.  There is a question that I need to find out from any of you (in your experiences – or any pain mgmt. MDs out there) about what I can expect from the Oxycontin.  I am currently taking 20MG twice a day.  It makes the pain tolerable, but doesn’t really erase it.  Is this the best that I should expect?  Or, should I be expecting total relief from pain?  I am reluctant to take high doses due to the "lovely" side-effects that I already have – weight gain, sleep disturbance, etc. Any advice or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. TIA, Jeff

Response:

Question:

dragon wrote:

Guess what? My wife was diagnosed with severe OCD this morning.  I guess she may change her views.  What a mind trip! Calvin

Hi Calvin, What a strange twist. So, now what? — monkey http://pages.hotbot.com/health/sillychickens/ mon…@gilligansisland.net (to email me axe ‘gilligans’) —

Response:

dragon wrote:

Guess what? My wife was diagnosed with severe OCD this morning.  I guess she may change her views.  What a mind trip!

Wow!  I hope that she can change her views but only time will tell. Kind regards, Steve

Response:

Guess what? My wife was diagnosed with severe OCD this morning.  I guess she may change her views.  What a mind trip! Calvin * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

dragon wrote:

My wife says that if I take these medications, her and my son will be ashamed of me and that they are no different than illegal drugs.

and …

She is from China.  So she has a different view on everything due to her culture.

Hi Dragon, Like a few of the other posters said, you could take your wife to the doctor with you. Also, maybe you could locate a doctor that is Chinese and/or go to a Chinese Medicine clinic where maybe you could speak with someone who might help build a bridge between the ‘western’ medicine thought and the views your wife has. — monkey http://pages.hotbot.com/health/sillychickens/ mon…@gilligansisland.net (to email me axe ‘gilligans’) —

Response:

dragon wrote:

She is from China.  So she has a different view on everything due to her culture.

Hmmm… that’s a tough one. I can’t think of a better idea than fuzzybrain’s at the moment. I suppose that you could ignore her views but it could be a very unsatisfactory solution, especially if she has a lot of influence over your son. Kind regards, Steve

Response:

She is from China.  So she has a different view on everything due to her culture. Calvin Tait * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

Dear Dragon Sounds like, if you can arrange it, you and your wife might benefit from a session together with your MD or whomever it was that prescribed the drugs. — peace from fuzzybrain I’m not GOING crazy, I’m already there!!!! dragon <p_taitNOp_S…@yahoo.com.invalid

wrote in message

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Does anyone use Effexor for OCD?  I have taken Paxil, Zoloft, and now Effexor XR with Klonopin for OCD and Anxiety. I take 150 mg a day. I have been diagnosed only a month ago with OCD My wife says that if I take these medications, her and my son will be ashamed of me and that they are no different than illegal drugs. * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network

*

The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

dragon wrote:

Does anyone use Effexor for OCD?  I have taken Paxil, Zoloft, and now Effexor XR with Klonopin for OCD and Anxiety. I take 150 mg a day.

I used to take Paxil (50 mg) and I now take Effexor (375 mg).

I have been diagnosed only a month ago with OCD

It’s early days then. You may not notice any benefits from the Effexor for a while yet.

My wife says that if I take these medications, her and my son will be ashamed of me and that they are no different than illegal drugs.

What an extraordinary attitude! There must be some reason for your wife thinking like this. I think that fuzzybrain’s suggestion of letting your wife talk to your psychiatrist about medications was a very good one. Does she have some strong religious beliefs that perhaps forbid taking medications? She obviously feels very strongly about this and seems to also be prepared to influence your son’s thinking. Perhaps she regards OCD as a "weakness"? Can you talk with her to find out what’s going on? Kind regards, Steve

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My wife says that if I take these medications, her and my son will be ashamed of me and that they are no different than illegal drugs.

That is terrible!  They are different from illegal drugs.  People use illegal drugs to get "high", to feel what a normal person cannot feel in a normal day of their lives. We use our medications to feel normal, to have a normal day in our life. Our brains (I would argue) seem to be lacking some important chemicals… and the drugs give us what we need to function close to normally. There is a myth among ‘normal’ people that prozac, and other drugs will make you happy.  They think it somehow magically makes you feel great everyday of your life ever after.  They have no clue what it’s really like to need these drugs. I’m so sorry that your wife feels that way.  If you need the drugs, take them. orlan

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Does anyone use Effexor for OCD?  I have taken Paxil, Zoloft, and now Effexor XR with Klonopin for OCD and Anxiety. I take 150 mg a day. I have been diagnosed only a month ago with OCD My wife says that if I take these medications, her and my son will be ashamed of me and that they are no different than illegal drugs. * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

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Would your wife be ashamed of you if you had high blood pressure and had to take medicine to control it? She is *seriously* misinformed about OCD and medication. I can not advise you specifically about Effexor because I take a different medication, but I *can* tell you that antidepressants have improved my life considerably. They *are* different than illegal drugs. No comparison. Maybe your doctor can talk some sense into her. Don’t let her fears and/or antipathy stop you from doing something that will probably help you in the long run. Regards, Ida dragon <p_taitNOp_S…@yahoo.com.invalid

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Does anyone use Effexor for OCD?  I have taken Paxil, Zoloft, and now Effexor XR with Klonopin for OCD and Anxiety. I take 150 mg a day. I have been diagnosed only a month ago with OCD My wife says that if I take these medications, her and my son will be ashamed of me and that they are no different than illegal drugs. * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network

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Question:

jBeth,  are you talking about Luvox? shell

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Brand name Faverin in the UK. Heard it’s good for OCD and depression.

Hi Beth, Fluvoxamine is similar to Prozac in many ways and is used for depression and OCD (an aside to Shell — yes, it’s Luvox in the USA). Response to antideps varies enormously from person to person, and what works for one may not work for another; unfortunately, psychiatric medicine is still rather hit and miss, and trial-and-error is usually the only way to find the right med for you. There are some major risks of interactions with this drug, including terfenadine and astemizole (antihistamines), cisapride ("propulsid", a motility stimulant), warfarin, theophylline, certain benzodiazepines and phenytoin. Or what about sertraline (Lustral/Zoloft)?

That has a slightly broader collection of possible side effects than some of the other SSRIs, though much less risk of drug interactions than fluvoxamine, and has been known to work in some people who have had only limited success with other antideps. Curiously, in the UK it’s not listed as a treatment for OCD, but only depression, while clinical trial data indicates that it *is* effective in OCD too. Some people who don’t get a good result from SSRIs have fared better with venlafaxine (Effexor) or with the SNRI reboxetine (Edronax), though again neither of these is listed as appropriate for treatment of OCD. Hope this info helps, and good luck! love from Julie.

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x-no-arcive: yes                 i tried luvox (generic name – fluvoxamine) for my OCD. i found effexor to work much better. hope some medication works for you soon.

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Brand name Faverin in the UK. Heard it’s good for OCD and depression. Or what about sertraline (Lustral/Zoloft)? Am going back on meds and don’t know whether Paxil (Seroxat) is worth trying (again!) BEth — ("That I would be good if I got and stayed sick   That I would be good even if I gained ten pounds" –  Alanis Morissette)

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Question:

Perhaps we could start with defining self-worth, and considering evolutionary roots leading to it, or how it is seen (or not seen) in lower animals. Below is a suggestion of the meaning of "self worth."  There are needs for certain aspects of belonginness.  Perhaps self-worth would include an assessment of the probability of their being met.  Perhaps this would also include an assessment of one’s "deservingness" of their being met, or in other words, an absence of shame or guilt. We might also consider that there may be brain based templates for such things as shame or guilt, such that if they are stimulated, or their conditions met, an unpleasant feeling is generated, which has the effect of modifying behavior. (more)

 :–  :                            Rational Negativism:  :               A Divergent Theory of Emotional Disorder  :  :Objective: To account for self-worth related emotion (i.e., needs for  :   love, acceptance, moral integrity, recognition, achievement,  :   purpose, meaning, etc.) and emotional disorder (e.g., depression,  :   suicide, etc.) within the context of an evolutionary scenario; i.e.,  :to  :   synthesize natural science and the humanities; i.e., to answer the  :   question:  ’Why is there a species of naturally selected organism  :   expending huge quantities of effort and energy on the  :survivalistically  :   bizarre non-physical objective of  maximizing self-worth?’  : If we view nature films of animals which live in groups, we find the existence of a heirarchy in many of them.  Often that heirarchy is constantly shifting, and is frequently re-ordered.  Sometimes, an individual is on the low end so often, he becomes a permanently low-status member.  He is fearful, and doesn’t even dare to challenge a higher-status member. Since the capacity for this behavior is species-wide, there must be templates for those behaviors involved.  Certainly, one can not impose them on reptiles, or solitary animals like certain cats.  Coincidentally, those seem to be the same animals which are prone to domestication. What are those templates?  How about feelings, such as shame, guilt, fear, a feeling of "less than," of being impressed with another who is "more than." In other words, feelings of a lack of self-worth.  And why do some individuals strive to change the pecking order?  Because those feelings are unpleasant, and they wish for them to be lost.  The way to lose those feelings is to increase one’s status, and with an absence of shame and fear, one has a greater feeling of self-worth. Viewing this in an evolutionary way, why would it happen?  For one thing, a group is more efficient in meeting its needs if it is organized.  For another, lower status enhances cooperation.  And it may be that the higher status individuals breed more often, passing along the genes of the stronger members of the group more frequently than those of the weaker ones. Thus, it is advantageous that the lower ones should strive for higher status, as a test of their potential for ancestry of a future group.  And it may be advantageous if the bolder ones lead the group in defending against intruders. Consequently, we have negative feelings and if not opposite feelings, then at least the absence of the negative ones. There is also an element of confidence.  With confidence, one feels that his behavior is likely to produce a desired result.  And he feels that he has the personal ability to carry out the behaviors.   Consequently, he is more likely to act when he is unable to know the outcome, than would a less confident individual.  Feelings of self-worth seem to be necessary for one to have confidence, and energy to carry out a plan. With the problem of bipolar disorder, this mechanism seems to go astray. The person attains such high confidence, he gambles on high risk propositions.  He has the energy to do a lot of work, and may be aggressive without purpose, as if he were at the top of a pack. Then he swings toward the opposite end, and lacks all confidence, lacks all energy, as if he were at the very bottom.  Is it possible that bipolar disorder means that existing templates for feelings and behavior are being triggered without environmental information which generally does that?  :Observation: The species in which rationality is most developed is  :   also the one in which individuals have the greatest difficulty in  :   maintaining an adequate sense of self-worth, often going to  :   extraordinary lengths in doing so (e.g., Evel Knievel, celibate  :monks,  self-endangering Greenpeacers, etc.).  : We have imposed culture upon our biological nature.  Where other creatures might be satisfied to find a place within a small pack, humans overlay their learning on this impulse, and seek through displays of wealth or education to gain the esteem of others, to bolster their self-esteem.  They may be holier than thou, humbler than thou, stronger or more beautiful, wherever they might find their niche.  Their learning may communicate to them that better means more powerful or more envied, or that better means more right.  :Hypothesis: Rationality is antagonistic to psychocentric stability  :(i.e.,  :   maintaining an adequate sense of self-worth).  :  :Synopsis: In much the manner reasoning allows for the subordination  :   of lower emotional concerns and values (pain, fear, anger, sex, etc.)  :   to more global concerns (concern for the self as a whole), so too,  :   these more global concerns and values can themselves become  :   reevaluated and subordinated to other more global, more objective  :   considerations. And if this is so, and assuming that emotional  :   disorder emanates from a deficiency in self-worth resulting from  :   precisely this sort of experiencially based reevaluation, then it can  :   reasonably be construed as a natural malfunction resulting from  :   one’s rational faculties functioning a tad too well.  : Negative information can cause negative feelings, but negative feelings can also cause all information to seem negative.  There is also a theory that depression has an evolutionary survival function. There was an observation of I think, some perigrene falcons, which mate for life.  The female did not return to the nest, and the male waited for her until he starved to death.  It was concluded that this was not helpful to the species, and therefore, depression was a fluke of nature. However, what would have happened if he had eventually concluded that she was not returning, and he was hungry and needed to find a meal?  Possibly the behavior of mating for life would have been weakened, which is connected to the survival of that species.  So if that happened a lot, and such birds passed along their genes and increased in number, the behavior may have diminished or disappeared, together with its survival function. So a very strong motivation to be loyal to the partner to the very end, possibly contributes to the survival of that species.  Consequently, depression is not without its function there (assuming the bird was depressed, of course.)  :Normalcy and Disorder: Assuming this is correct, then some  :   explanation for the relative "normalcy" of most individuals would  :   seem necessary. This is accomplished simply by postulating  :   different levels or degrees of consciousness.  From this perspective,  :   emotional disorder would then be construed as a valuative affliction  :   resulting from an increase in semantic content in the engram indexed  :   by the linguistic expression, "I am insignificant", which all persons  :of  :   common sense "know" to be true, but which the "emotionally  :   disturbed" have come to "realize", through abstract thought,  :   devaluing experience, etc.  :  :Implications: So-called "free will" and the incessant activity presumed  :   to emanate from it is simply the insatiable appetite we all have for  :   self-significating experience which, in turn, is simply nature’s way  :of  :   attempting to counter the objectifying influences of our rational  :   faculties. This also implies that the engine in the first  :"free-thinking"  :   artifact is probably going to be a diesel.  : Huh?  :  :   "Another simile would be an atomic pile of less than critical size:  :an  :   injected idea is to correspond to a neutron entering the pile from  :   without. Each such neutron will cause a certain disturbance which  :   eventually dies away. If, however, the size of the pile is  :sufficiently  :   increased, the disturbance caused by such an incoming neutron will  :   very likely go on and on increasing until the whole pile is  :destroyed.  :   Is there a corresponding phenomenon for minds?" (A. M. Turing).  :  :  :Additional Implications: Since the explanation I have proposed  :   amounts to the contention that the most rational species  :   (presumably) is beginning to exhibit signs of transcending the  :   formalism of nature’s fixed objective (accomplished in man via  :   intentional self-concern, i.e., the prudence program) it can  :reasonably  :   be construed as providing evidence and argumentation in support of  :   Lucas/Godel. Not only does this imply that the aforementioned  :   artifact probably won’t be a computer, but it would also explain why  :a  :   question such as "Can Human Irrationality Be Experimentally  :   Demonstrated?" (Cohen, 1981) has led to controversy, in that it  :   presupposes the possibility of a discrete (formalizable) answer to a  :   question which can only be addressed in comparative  :   (non-formalizable) terms (e.g. X is more rational than Y, the norm,  :etc.).  : There are some games, including the prisoner’s dilemma, which generally result in irrationality.  There is also a bird which has a behavior of tearing down its neighbor’s nest.  The bird has several choices.  1.) Spend all his time guarding what part of his nest is built, 2.) Look for new … read more »

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–                             Rational Negativism:                A Divergent Theory of Emotional Disorder Objective: To account for self-worth related emotion (i.e., needs for    love, acceptance, moral integrity, recognition, achievement,    purpose, meaning, etc.) and emotional disorder (e.g., depression,    suicide, etc.) within the context of an evolutionary scenario; i.e., to    synthesize natural science and the humanities; i.e., to answer the    question:  ’Why is there a species of naturally selected organism    expending huge quantities of effort and energy on the survivalistically    bizarre non-physical objective of  maximizing self-worth?’ Observation: The species in which rationality is most developed is    also the one in which individuals have the greatest difficulty in    maintaining an adequate sense of self-worth, often going to    extraordinary lengths in doing so (e.g., Evel Knievel, celibate monks,    self-endangering Greenpeacers, etc.). Hypothesis: Rationality is antagonistic to psychocentric stability (i.e.,    maintaining an adequate sense of self-worth). Synopsis: In much the manner reasoning allows for the subordination    of lower emotional concerns and values (pain, fear, anger, sex, etc.)    to more global concerns (concern for the self as a whole), so too,    these more global concerns and values can themselves become    reevaluated and subordinated to other more global, more objective    considerations. And if this is so, and assuming that emotional    disorder emanates from a deficiency in self-worth resulting from    precisely this sort of experiencially based reevaluation, then it can    reasonably be construed as a natural malfunction resulting from    one’s rational faculties functioning a tad too well. Normalcy and Disorder: Assuming this is correct, then some    explanation for the relative "normalcy" of most individuals would    seem necessary. This is accomplished simply by postulating    different levels or degrees of consciousness.  From this perspective,    emotional disorder would then be construed as a valuative affliction    resulting from an increase in semantic content in the engram indexed    by the linguistic expression, "I am insignificant", which all persons of    common sense "know" to be true, but which the "emotionally    disturbed" have come to "realize", through abstract thought,    devaluing experience, etc. Implications: So-called "free will" and the incessant activity presumed    to emanate from it is simply the insatiable appetite we all have for    self-significating experience which, in turn, is simply nature’s way of    attempting to counter the objectifying influences of our rational    faculties. This also implies that the engine in the first "free-thinking"    artifact is probably going to be a diesel.    "Another simile would be an atomic pile of less than critical size: an    injected idea is to correspond to a neutron entering the pile from    without. Each such neutron will cause a certain disturbance which    eventually dies away. If, however, the size of the pile is sufficiently    increased, the disturbance caused by such an incoming neutron will    very likely go on and on increasing until the whole pile is destroyed.    Is there a corresponding phenomenon for minds?" (A. M. Turing). Additional Implications: Since the explanation I have proposed    amounts to the contention that the most rational species    (presumably) is beginning to exhibit signs of transcending the    formalism of nature’s fixed objective (accomplished in man via    intentional self-concern, i.e., the prudence program) it can reasonably    be construed as providing evidence and argumentation in support of    Lucas/Godel. Not only does this imply that the aforementioned    artifact probably won’t be a computer, but it would also explain why a    question such as "Can Human Irrationality Be Experimentally    Demonstrated?" (Cohen, 1981) has led to controversy, in that it    presupposes the possibility of a discrete (formalizable) answer to a    question which can only be addressed in comparative    (non-formalizable) terms (e.g. X is more rational than Y, the norm, etc.).      Along these same lines, the theory can also be construed as an    endorsement or metajustification for comparative approaches in    epistemology (explanationism, plausiblism, etc.)    "The short answer [to Lucas/Godel and more recently, Penrose]     is that, although it is established that there are limitations to the    powers of any particular machine, it has only been stated, without    any sort of proof, that no such limitations apply to human intellect "    (A. M. Turing).    "So even if mathematicians are superb cognizers of mathematical    truth, and even if there is no algorithm, practical or otherwise,    for cognizing mathematical truth, it does not follow that the power    of mathematicians to cognize mathematical truth is not entirely    explicable in terms of their brain’s executing an algorithm.  Not    an algorhithm for intuiting mathematical truth —  we can suppose that    Penrose [via Godel] has proved that there could be no such thing.      What would the algorithm be for, then?  Most plausibly it would be an    algorithm — one of very many — for trying to stay alive … " (D. C.    Dennett). Oops!  Sorry!  Wrong again, old bean.      "My ruling passion is the love of literary fame" (David Hume).    "I have often felt as though I had inherited all the defiance and all the    passions with which our ancestors defended their Temple and could    gladly sacrifice my life for one great moment in history" (Sigmund    Freud).    "He, too [Ludwig Wittgenstein], suffered from depressions and for long    periods considered killing himself because he considered his life    worthless, but the stubbornness inherited from his father may have    helped him to survive" (Hans Sluga).    "The inquest [Alan Turing's] established that it was suicide.  The    evidence was perfunctory, not for any irregular reason, but because    it was so transparently clear a case" (Andrew Hodges) —                Phil Roberts, Jr. Feelings of Worthlessness and So-Called Cognitive Science         http://www.geocities.com/Athens/5476

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Question:

Hi, Sandi…. Glad to know I’m not the only cyber junkie here……:))  I spend way too much time on this computer….In a way, it is an escape for me…. I don’t take zoloft, so I can’t offer any comment about the symptoms your were experiencing… But I *do* hope that you are feeling better… Take care……MikeH – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Also, a little LOL I had withdraw from not being able to get on my computer yesterday, My son took the mouse to work with him.  I though it was the end of the world I had to go to the store and buy a mouse so I could get into my support group LOL..(maybe that what cause my aniexty).Hee, Hee Thanks again Sandi

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Hi guys, I need some advice I have in this group for three weeks now and you guys have been all great with your support and I truly thank you. My problem is that I have been feeling good with taking 50mg of zoloft in fact this is the first week that I have been out of the house, driving and have some fun.  The only thing is that yesterday I was having alot of short of breath (it went away later that day).  Last night I started with this weird feeling in the middle of my chest like I ate too much or something, but it felt like I was going to burst.  It was a tightening I guess that how I want to explain it well, anyway it started scaring me I thought I was going to have a heart attack or something.  My husband who I might say is great about all this PA, told me to try to relax, but it was so hard because I was trying to go to sleep and I was really scared.   I gon’t up this morning and I am ok now, does anyone know if they ever had this or is it a side effect from zoloft?  Sorry that this is a long letter.  and Thanks for being there. Also, a little LOL I had withdraw from not being able to get on my computer yesterday, My son took the mouse to work with him.  I though it was the end of the world I had to go to the store and buy a mouse so I could get into my support group LOL..(maybe that what cause my aniexty).Hee, Hee Thanks again Sandi

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