Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Has anyone here noticed that their asthma symptoms have changed since being on Flovent.  I am talking about when you are actually having some asthma trouble.  I notice that my attacks come on slower now and less frequent with Flovent – and I also notice that the symptoms tend to be different.  Before Flovent my asthma symptoms always started with a tightness in my upperchest and a definite Wheezing.  Now I find they seem to start lower down in the chest – feels likea tightness in the lower back actually – and I don’t get wheezing as much as I just feel short of breath.  I wondered if I was along in this sensation.

If it’s helping, I don’t see it. I’ve had three bouts of bronchitis since Sept. Helen

Response:

CarolR hit it right on the head. After being on Flovent for about a year, my symptoms changed from having chest tightness to a feeling only my small airways were slowly closing on me.  Atrovent, by the way, takes care of "that" feeling much better then Albuterol….

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Has anyone here noticed that their asthma symptoms have changed since being on Flovent.  I am talking about when you are actually having some asthma trouble.  I notice that my attacks come on slower now and less frequent with Flovent – and I also notice that the symptoms tend to be different.  Before Flovent my asthma symptoms always started with a tightness in my upperchest and a definite Wheezing.  Now I find they seem to start lower down in the chest – feels likea tightness in the lower back actually – and I don’t get wheezing as much as I just feel short of breath.  I wondered if I was along in this sensation.

I get the tightness and feel short of breath also.  I rarely ever wheeze anymore.  I don’t get the typical asthma attacks.  I almost feel like only my small bronchioles are affected now rather than the large bronchus.  Kinda weird . CarolR

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Has anyone here noticed that their asthma symptoms have changed since being on Flovent.  I am talking about when you are actually having some asthma trouble.  I notice that my attacks come on slower now and less frequent with Flovent – and I also notice that the symptoms tend to be different.  Before Flovent my asthma symptoms always started with a tightness in my upperchest and a definite Wheezing.  Now I find they seem to start lower down in the chest – feels likea tightness in the lower back actually – and I don’t get wheezing as much as I just feel short of breath.  I wondered if I was along in this sensation.

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Question:

No one understands that you simply can’t just dump a therapist (a good one) to run to another one.  I don’t know where I would begin or how I would start talking.  I would have to take all the notes on my visits and make tons of them myself and would need a full day visit just to get her acquainted with me. This sucks so much and I am so fucking angry.  No one cares.  I don’t understand but I guess it is "welcome to the world of HMO’s".  (our old insurance was great) Fucked up stupid assed lamo system.

It’s fucked all right.  I’m not in the same boat by any means.  My insurance changed this year also, but it turned out to be less money for more coverage.  Many other aren’t so fortunate. Use the anger.  Press your elected representatives to write laws instituting Medical Savings Accounts.  The benefits are numerous. You have your own account, protected by law.  This allows you to chose what coverage you need and who to buy it from.  You can buy a full plan, catastrophic coverage only, or no coverage at all – you simply pay the doctor with funds from the account. The account could also roll over year to year, adding any unused funds to the pool.  The whole thing could earn interest and grow a loittle more, or at least hedge against inflation. Your employer contributes towards your account at the same rate they would pay towards company group insurance.  But they save money because human resources no longer needs to supervise employee insurance plans  They simply provide the money as a tax exempt benefit, and the employee is responsible for the rest. But I’m not holding my breath.  Most people seem content to ask someone else to take care of them, and then spend all their time bitching about how bad they are being cared for.

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I understand, Becky.  My pdoc just dropped out of my insurance plan.  I did not want to start over with another one.  I really, really like him. He is totally awesome. I am going to pay out of pocket to see him, and my PCP will take care of my meds.  But I don’t have to see my pdoc as often as a therapist, so I am going to try to swing it. I’m so sorry you have to face these kind of decisions. Wanda — Always interesting what is revealed about oneself when one guesses at another person’s motives.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have been seeing my therapist for about 4 years now.  We have a good relationship. Suddenly hubby’s boss changes the insurance on us and while all my other specialists and doctors are covered—-my therapist is not. It is such a crazy situation and I am winging out into left field.  I have been winging anyway—dissociation and black outs—-and need her and need to be able to see and talk to her.  She understands ME.  She knows most of everything there is to know about me.  I can’t even imagine starting with someone else. The insurance company does not understand this.  They have been giving us the run-a-round.  My therapist is trying to help but is getting no where either. Her visits are $80/45 minutes.  I would have to pay that and $20-30 ontop of that to get my bill paid down. No one understands that you simply can’t just dump a therapist (a good one) to run to another one.  I don’t know where I would begin or how I would start talking.  I would have to take all the notes on my visits and make tons of them myself and would need a full day visit just to get her acquainted with me. This sucks so much and I am so fucking angry.  No one cares.  I don’t understand but I guess it is "welcome to the world of HMO’s".  (our old insurance was great) Fucked up stupid assed lamo system. Becky who can’t shed tears but can sure go on a good rage…… "I have seen the sea when it is stormy and wild; when it is quiet and serene; when it is dark and moody. And in all its moods, I see myself."      -Martin Buxbaum

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Does your husband’s employer offer —what’s it called — it’s that thing where they put aside part of his pay *pre-tax* into a medical/health account and you can draw from it within a particular time-period (usually a very strict calendar year) to pay your medical bills. No Wombn his employer doesn’t offer anything like that.  Either way it would probably be easier for us to start a savings account now in prepartion for next year.  Not a bad idea really.  <sigh  Maybe it would keep us ahead of the bill. Where do middle income folks go when they can’t afford insurance on their own and have to rely on their employer?  What do they do? You know the problem really is not to bad regarding the doctors it is regarding the Mental Health services in our country. No one wants to admit we are out here and that we deserve the benefits as everyone else has in seeing a specialized doctor. Because we are dealing with mental health we are put into whole other categories and over looked and railroaded into seeing the people that they handpick—not the folks that we have been with for years. I just fucking amazes me how they are able to get away with what they do not only in mental health issues but in other areas of health care. Hey it isn’t fair but then I learned from a little kid up that most things in life are never fair and nothing ever will be. Becky "I have seen the sea when it is stormy and wild; when it is quiet and serene; when it is dark and moody. And in all its moods, I see myself."      -Martin Buxbaum

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Thank you Fiona…… Hugs….. Becky "I have seen the sea when it is stormy and wild; when it is quiet and serene; when it is dark and moody. And in all its moods, I see myself."      -Martin Buxbaum

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Thanks Minx for caring. It is frustrating as well as infuriating. THESE people do not care. Hell I have to watch my prescriptions now because if the script is for 100+ tabs a month then the doctor has to call the insurance company and have it approved for that amount OR the doctor has to be very careful and make sure they give me the highest dose pill. All because my husband’s work wanted to save a few bucks. I know I know everyone is out for a buck these days.  So us poor folks get stuck up the ass in bills and debt. I am SO pissed off…… Becky Hugs Hugs… "I have seen the sea when it is stormy and wild; when it is quiet and serene; when it is dark and moody. And in all its moods, I see myself."      -Martin Buxbaum

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have been seeing my therapist for about 4 years now.  We have a good relationship. Suddenly hubby’s boss changes the insurance on us and while all my other specialists and doctors are covered—-my therapist is not. It is such a crazy situation and I am winging out into left field.  I have been winging anyway—dissociation and black outs—-and need her and need to be able to see and talk to her.  She understands ME.  She knows most of everything there is to know about me.  I can’t even imagine starting with someone else. The insurance company does not understand this.  They have been giving us the run-a-round.  My therapist is trying to help but is getting no where either. Her visits are $80/45 minutes.  I would have to pay that and $20-30 ontop of that to get my bill paid down. No one understands that you simply can’t just dump a therapist (a good one) to run to another one.  I don’t know where I would begin or how I would start talking.  I would have to take all the notes on my visits and make tons of them myself and would need a full day visit just to get her acquainted with me. This sucks so much and I am so fucking angry.  No one cares.  I don’t understand but I guess it is "welcome to the world of HMO’s".  (our old insurance was great) Fucked up stupid assed lamo system.

this is horrible. I feel furious just reading this.  It makes me sick.   I hate the insurance industry, I hate we have no socialized care, and I hate you have to go through this. becky, I hope you win this. I hope. minx — "I wouldn’t mind leaving myself behind if I could, but I don’t know the way out." — Elphaba, _Wicked_

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<snip I wish I had a magic wand and could fix this for you Becky. I do have one possibility for you, does the insurance (HMO?) have an out-of-network rate? I know that my evil HMO pays a greater percentage or all of an "in-network" provider, but does pay something when I see an "out-of-network" provider. Of course, my HMO is so notorious around these parts that only two pdocs in reach of me are "in-network," my current pdoc described them as being one he wasn’t too sure of and the other he "wouldn’t let talk to my houseplants." Though this is also the same HMO that won’t pay my medication costs at the higher rate because I could have generic Paxil and Seroquel if I "really wanted them." Fiona — If we had no winter, the spring would not be so pleasant: if we did not sometimes taste the adversity, prosperity would not be so welcome.      – Anne Bradstreet, Meditations Divine and Moral, 1664

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I have been seeing my therapist for about 4 years now.  We have a good relationship. Suddenly hubby’s boss changes the insurance on us and while all my other specialists and doctors are covered—-my therapist is not. It is such a crazy situation and I am winging out into left field.  I have been winging anyway—dissociation and black outs—-and need her and need to be able to see and talk to her.  She understands ME.  She knows most of everything there is to know about me.  I can’t even imagine starting with someone else. The insurance company does not understand this.  They have been giving us the run-a-round.  My therapist is trying to help but is getting no where either. Her visits are $80/45 minutes.  I would have to pay that and $20-30 ontop of that to get my bill paid down. No one understands that you simply can’t just dump a therapist (a good one) to run to another one.  I don’t know where I would begin or how I would start talking.  I would have to take all the notes on my visits and make tons of them myself and would need a full day visit just to get her acquainted with me. This sucks so much and I am so fucking angry.  No one cares.  I don’t understand but I guess it is "welcome to the world of HMO’s".  (our old insurance was great) Fucked up stupid assed lamo system. Becky who can’t shed tears but can sure go on a good rage…… "I have seen the sea when it is stormy and wild; when it is quiet and serene; when it is dark and moody. And in all its moods, I see myself."      -Martin Buxbaum

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Question:

I’ve had bruising and tearing of skin far too easily – even kneading bread in a bowl will cause small hemmorhages where the arms rub! I take Flovent, Serevent and Accolate – now after 3 weeks of 500mg vit. C BID, I think there is some small improvement.  Plan to increase dosage gradually and see if the effect is enhanced.  Will post more – eventually! Jan

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 I have begun to notice a few things that are causing me to be a little nervous.  I am brusing very easily.  I am developing a lot of spider veins in my legs.  I have a cluster of viens on top of the shen bone on my lower leg and I have a vein that has kind of popped out about 4 inches below my knee on that same leg.  I am seeing my Dr. tomorrow, he always tells me flowvent doesn’t get into my system and not to worry about any thing.  Do these symptoms sound like I should be concerned?  I feel great and would hate to give up my flowvent, but I wonder if I wouldn’t be just fine with a smaller dose.  

What does the insert that came with your medication say about side effects and adverse reactions?  There should be a phone number for the manufactuer in the insert, maybe you should call and ask them directly? ‘Reply to’ address changed to foil email spammers.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am currently taking flovent 220, 2 sprays in morning and 2 in the evening. I originally started out taking 4 sprays in am and pm,back in Nov 96. My Dr. slowly reduced me to my current dosage last March.   This has been a miricle drug for me.  The first relief from asthma attacks in over 10 years.  In fact I have not had an attack since the second week of Nov 96, they used to be a daily occurance.   I have begun to notice a few things that are causing me to be a little nervous.  I am brusing very easily.  I am developing a lot of spider veins in my legs.  I have a cluster of viens on top of the shen bone on my lower leg and I have a vein that has kind of popped out about 4 inches below my knee on that same leg.   I am seeing my Dr. tomorrow, he always tells me flowvent doesn’t get into my system and not to worry about any thing.   Do these symptoms sound like I should be concerned?  I feel great and would hate to give up my flowvent, but I wonder if I wouldn’t be just fine with a smaller dose.                          Barbara

You are taking a High Dose of Flovent (880 ug fluticasone/day), per the Expert Panel Report 2. A Low Dose is 88-264 ug/day, a Medium Dose is 264-660 ug/day, a High Dose is 660 ug/day.  The High Dose is prescribed for Severe Asthma. Also recommended in addition to the steroid inhaler is a long-acting bronchodilator; a Serevent inhaler or theophylline SR (Theo-Dur) These tend to be steroid sparing drugs. Other steroid sparing drugs new on the market are Accolate & Zyflo. Then you should have a short-acting bronchodilator like albuterol for rescue. It’s possible you are having the steroid side effect which results in thin delicate skin. It is best to use the minimum dose of steroid to control the symptoms, especially at the medium & high doses. A peak flow meter can be used to help assess the lung function; you want to stay in the green zone, 80% of personal best. Then an Action Plan should be used to increasemeds including steroid inhaler, in the event of an asthma exacerbation.

It may prove easier to taper down if you switch your Flovent to the medium strength inhaler (Flovent 110) Perhaps you could then try 3 puffs twice a day (with doctor’s approval of course). To minimize side effects make sure to use a spacer, like an AeroChamber, with the Flovent. Wash mouth & gargle after inhaling. Then get Serevent or Theo-Dur if you don’t already have it; & a albuterol inhaler for rescue. A book that explains this is ‘The Asthma Sourcebook’, Francis Adams, MD, c96. http://home.earthlink.net/~francisva/news.html Ellis

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Question:

Ted said in this very newsgroup… it is the SAME stuff you have been taking, and the price is now only TEN times the price people outside the US pay.

We can only hope that competition will bring the benefits to our US cousins that we Europeans have. Generic Metformin, on a three doses a day basis (1500mg total dose) is sold to the British NHS at a basic price of $4 a week or thereabouts. That is the price the NHS pays; anyone not able to supply at that price does not get used. So therefore as many manufacturers are supplying at that price there is no reason why it should not be available at around those prices in the US. I have had Israeli manufactured Metformin in the past; supplied at that price. Absolutely perfect generic Metformin. The manufacturers would not be selling at the UK price if it was unprofitable. This is not gloating BTW. It really sickens me that our good US friends are being taken for a ride. Ratty — Type 2 since 93 Can I get a new pancreas under the warranty? This one’s burnt out…. http://www.asduk.org.uk our shiny new website!

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it is the SAME stuff you have been taking, and the price is now only TEN times the price people outside the US pay. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just got back from the pharmacy where I discovered that my insurance company forced a switch to the new generic metformin. Anyone have any experience with it yet? Any different (or new) side effects that I should be aware of? I still have about 20 days of the old stuff available, so I’d like to be forewarned if possible. Thanks in advance.

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Bill Josephs said in this very newsgroup… I just got back from the pharmacy where I discovered that my insurance company forced a switch to the new generic metformin. Anyone have any experience with it yet? Any different (or new) side effects that I should be aware of? I still have about 20 days of the old stuff available, so I’d like to be forewarned if possible. Thanks in advance.

The only real meaningful difference is the name. Metformin is the lab name of the compound that Glucophage contains. The active ingredients are identical. Ratty — email: flyingrat at totalise.co.uk giggle: http://www.users.totalise.co.uk/~royellor/ spam: kiss my ar*e

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I just got back from the pharmacy where I discovered that my insurance company forced a switch to the new generic metformin. Anyone have any experience with it yet? Any different (or new) side effects that I should be aware of? I still have about 20 days of the old stuff available, so I’d like to be forewarned if possible. Thanks in advance.

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Question:

 you all should check out this web address, it is the journal of a schizophrenic…its amazing… http://www.h13.com <I finally am getting time to read some interesting posts and I find <the debate about to med or not to medicate an interesting one. A Shawneie forgery as about 2/3 of the posts today are. She is pissed off that her schemes were exposed and I refuse to allow her to use her sock puppets to hide behind so she is taking it out on everyone. Yes, she is having a very bad day.

LOL.. Poor pauly boy..

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I finally am getting time to read some interesting posts and I find the debate about to med or not to medicate an interesting one. When my dau. was diagnosed with severe TS almost 3 yrs. ago, we chose to medicate.  Her tics were so that she could not attend school.  She had a loud hiccup type tic every 3 sec. of every waking moment.  Her tics went on from there.  I saw a picture of her at Christmas time when she was about in third grade where I actually took a picture of her in the middle of one of her tics.  I didn’t realize it was TS then.  I did go to m.d. about it, but they said, bad habits. So went to full gambit.  Seroquel, Respiradol, Zyprexia, Clonidine, Tenex, Klonopin, Geodon and  antidepressants–Zoloft, Wellbutrin, and Prozac.  After all of that, my dau. is not presently on any medications.  By this summer, she had had it and we pulled her off her present medications of Prozac and Geodon.  As soon as we deleted Prozac, my old dau. emerged.  She was a ticcing old dau., but her old personality resurfaced.  It was like a miracle to us.  She traded dealing with ticcing rather than being spaced out, drugged out, crazed out by drugs that she had no control over her reactions to.  Three years later she is learning to live with her ticcing, learning to deal with the teasing she had received in middle school (she hardly attended school at all during her middle school years).  She has developed a harder crust.  She no longer self-mutilates, but still tics a great deal and I drive4 her crazy–such as breathing, sneezing, coughing, etc.  My noises and mannerisms sends her into tail spins. If I had known that Prozac was having the negative impact on her, I would have demanded she be taken off of it.  I think many of us parents are just so desperate to return our children to what we view as normalcy.  I never realized how this med was affecting her.  I just thought she was mentally decompensating more.  Especially with antidepressants, you have to watch out for weight gain and ones that could make you tic more, such as Zoloft and Wellbutrin.  It is so complicated and scarey to medicate to kids.  They are often unable to fully explain to the medicating docs how the medications are truly affecting them. The child often wants the medications to work so bad that they are initially willing to put up with anything that could help them deal with the tics. Then it is further complicated by the philosophical treatment of the neuros vs. the psychiatrists.  It is also dependent on if you have a doctor in any field that has any real experience with TS.  It is just very scarey out there for both the parent and the TS child.  I know first hand.  Been there and done that. I think it took me awhile to come to terms with my daughter’s diagnosis of TS.  I see so many parents making comments, that "my beautiful, gifted, child has TS."  They feel that somehow their child has been blighted.  I know I fell into that trap too.  It just takes awhile for us parents to accept the pronounced changes that happen when a child has TS.  Their ticcing driving you crazy; their not being able to attend school sometimes; their being upset when kids tease them; their being depressed because their lives will never be the ame–they just want to be "normal" like everyone else.  Let’s face it, in adolescents, especially, it is like a kiss of death to be thought of as different.  All of the peer pressure is staggering to a TS child. Would I do what I did if I had to do it over again, probably.  Because I must remember where we were at three years ago–so desperate, so unwilling to accept what was my daughter’s plight.  Were we misguided–perhaps.  We we desperate–yes.  We just had to try to do anything we could go help her, good or bad, only to come to full circle and take all of the medications away.  The ironies of life. Dawnee Dawnee

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Question:

No, I’m cool with that, James. I don’t even mind lookingat SEs for other TCAs, though they are exactly the same as the one I’m on. But the very first thing I do when I get a refill is bin the info sheet if the pharmacist hasn’t already done so.  The minds of mortals work in strange ways, huh?

agreed. some of those "side effects" are ridiculous though…i mean "alcohol abuse"?! -although i have been feeling like a drink lately, but you’re not meant to consume alcohol when taking paxil. — James Fife, Scotland ICQ:41149795 "there is NO point to life – life IS the point" -me 2001AD

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<snippage BTW, there haven’t been any contributions to the FAQ, so I did some work on it, and have forwarded it to Jackie to look over, fill in blanks, etc.

Hey, Sloopy — You know, I feel that it’s somewhat unfortunate that there were so few contributions to this thread as I think others could offer some helpful opinions.  I’m thinking about suggestions from newbies in particular — wondering what they would like to have seen in an SSRI-FAQ had it existed when they first found ASAP.  I do understand how some may feel *shy* about jumping into a thread in which it looks as though only long-timers are discussing the subject.  However, I’m glad you did pose this idea to the group in an open forum format as it at least allowed for others to contribute should they have desired to do so. Others, such as yourself, who wish to contribute (one way or an udder), will receive a copy for review before it’s "almost" finished, and all input will be appreciated (all input right "now" would be, and is, appreciated:)

Sounds good – I would like to review the "almost" finished FAQ as I think it will be fun to review with respect to the clarity aspect. It won’t be done in a day or two, but it shouldn’t take all that long, either. Of course, I expect Ian to "sheer" it apart, once he has access again:)

LOL… Oh yes, I’m sure Ian will have some opinions and contributions to make, and I certainly wouldn’t want to deprive him of the opportunity to do so.  :) Best… ==== Blue (one who is curse-proof!… ) — Remove mypants to email me

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I’m thinking about suggestions from newbies in particular — wondering what they would like to have seen in an SSRI-FAQ had it existed when they first found ASAP.

hmm. 1. the conditions they are used for 2. what each one in particular is mostly used for 3. how they work 4. something about the different doses 5. side effects of each ssri 6. coming off them 7. um…. — James Fife, Scotland ICQ:41149795 "there is NO point to life – life IS the point" -me 2001AD

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7. um….

known interactions with other drugs/alcohol etc! there! — James Fife, Scotland ICQ:41149795 "there is NO point to life – life IS the point" -me 2001AD

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m thinking about suggestions from newbies in particular — wondering what they would like to have seen in an SSRI-FAQ had it existed when they first found ASAP. hmm. 1. the conditions they are used for 2. what each one in particular is mostly used for 3. how they work 4. something about the different doses 5. side effects of each ssri 6. coming off them 7. um….

Um… could i suggest it doesn’t include the side effects, just a URL to a source that lists them. Most of us, including me, are likely to experience them all on reading about them. Ian

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Um… could i suggest it doesn’t include the side effects, just a URL to a source that lists them. Most of us, including me, are likely to experience them all on reading about them.

you *definately* don’t want to look at this then: <<<warning! http://www.paxilprogress.org/research/research_documents/paxil_sideef… <<<warning! (!) — James Fife, Scotland ICQ:41149795 "there is NO point to life – life IS the point" -me 2001AD

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Um… could i suggest it doesn’t include the side effects, just a URL to a source that lists them. Most of us, including me, are likely to experience them all on reading about them. you *definately* don’t want to look at this then: <<<warning! http://www.paxilprogress.org/research/research_documents/paxil_sideef… <<<warning! (!)

No, I’m cool with that, James. I don’t even mind lookingat SEs for other TCAs, though they are exactly the same as the one I’m on. But the very first thing I do when I get a refill is bin the info sheet if the pharmacist hasn’t already done so.  The minds of mortals work in strange ways, huh? Ian

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Sloopy wrote……. Hopefully, you got it and have eaten your monitor by now

I`ve been cheated!!!! In my tagline is specifically says that I require 14 chocolate bars and you only sent 6 What ‘ya think?

Whatever everyone agree`s on is just fine by me Jackie Acting like a witch…..Eating 14 chocolate bars…..this isn`t a holiday for

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Hi Blue!  :)  Good to see you back.

Thanks, Dan.  It’s a real… er, pleasure <? to be back! IMO, YMMV and all that.  I personally don’t like the Q&A format.  All the information is there either way.   A well laid out document will allow users to find what they need.

I think Sloopy’s intention in bringing up the idea of creating an SSRI-FAQ in an open forum was to allow any and all to express their own opinions, and I am pleased we can have differences in our opinions I’m trying to imagine a newbie who’s gone to the trouble to find the FAQ and is willing to read it.  I just reread the post of Jackie’s where she put together information in a document-type format and contrasted that to Sloopy’s post where he’s posed suggestions for questions. And personally, I think the question and answer format is less *intimidating* somehow.  As you know, some of  us have difficulty concentrating at times, and I feel the question-and-answer format allows the reader to take in the information a bit at a time. However, as you state, a well laid-out document could achieve the same results.  It’s getting that document into a well laid-out state that then becomes the challenge.  Clarity is what is needed, whatever format the FAQ takes.  Should the FAQ take the form of a document rather than a question-and-answer format, I would be willing to review it and voice my opinions on how well it reads, for whatever that’s worth. <snippage As far as dissenting ideas, I had two sources in mind.  The antimed fanatics are one, you know they’ll have something to say about this. But they aren’t really the ones I had in mind.  I was mainly thinking of sincere posters that would like to have non-meds mentioned.

I think Sloopy, in his reply to your post, makes a valid point with respect to this.  If this is to be a FAQ on SSRIs, then that should be the subject of the SSRI-FAQ.  I am sympathetic to those sincere readers and/or posters who would like to have information on dealing with anxiety and panic without the use of meds, and I think this is best addressed as a separate issue as it is in the monthly FAQ. I haven’t heard commentary on the idea of making this a "meds" FAQ rather than just SSRIs.  How many newcomers will even know what an SSRI is and if their med is one?

Once again, I feel what Sloopy said with respect to taking this one step at a time makes sense.  And I do agree with Sloopy that the SSRI-FAQ would serve the purpose of answering those almost daily questions of  "My doctor just put me on <SSRI.  Does anyone know anything about <SSRI?"  That would be the time that the link to the SSRI-FAQ could be provided, and voila!  No more Jackie and Philip spending their time writing the same replies over and over and over again… Best Wishes === Blue — Remove mypants to email me

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Hi Blue!  :)  Good to see you back. It ’tis, isn’t it?  Whoa Nellie!

LOL, Sloopy… I just "luv" Nellie Best… === Blue — Remove mypants to email me

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Blue!  :)  Good to see you back. It ’tis, isn’t it?  Whoa Nellie! IMO, YMMV and all that.  I personally don’t like the Q&A format.  All the information is there either way.   A well laid out document will allow users to find what they need. It makes no difference, AFAIC.  As long as all the info is there, and easy to follow. The questions I last posed need to be included, however – in whatever format.  When I have the time, I’ll go back through it, and see how it lays out. Need all the answers to the questions, tho:) <snip As far as dissenting ideas, I had two sources in mind.  The antimed fanatics are one, you know they’ll have something to say about this. But they aren’t really the ones I had in mind.  I was mainly thinking of sincere posters that would like to have non-meds mentioned. I think you’re missing the point, Dan. The monthly FAQ has all sorts of non-med references. The idea behind *this* FAQ is that people ask the same questions about SSRIs all the time. For those who *ask*, then the URL to this particular FAQ, or the FAQ itself can be posted as a reply. I haven’t heard commentary on the idea of making this a "meds" FAQ rather than just SSRIs. I think one step at a time. When people ask about benzos (for example), there are sites all over the place that talk about their effectiveness and when/if they should be prescribed (and dependency caveats). There are also quite a few sites with opposite views. I not only doubt that a FAQ is necessary for tranquilizers in general, but think it would become a war zone! LOL However, when someone asks about them, they get answers "and" URLs to check. With the SSRI questions, however, there aren’t sites that provide the type of information that’s provided here on an almost daily basis. That’s why it’s an ASAP FAQ, for ease of replies, as well as "more" education on these meds than the poster may have even been aware to ask in the first place. AND, the main reason, I suppose, is that SSRIs are prescribed for just about anything these days, far more than any other class of medications, it appears. That’s why there are more questions about them, and why it seems a need to focus in with a good solid document that contains a lot of the answers to <koff frequenty asked questions:) How many newcomers will even know what an SSRI is and if their med is one? That’s one of the goals;)  Someone says "the doc just put me on Paxil (or whatever it’s called in a particular country), and I don’t know much about it. Can someone tell me about side effects I’ve heard about?" <  BAM – post the FAQ as a reply (just once) or the URL to it   Think of it more as a reply, rather than a FAQ document for searching, and you might see what I feel the aim is. — Sloopy:)

Is that not like telling people to read the F.Manal, just like some PC groups do.??? — Mark Brown

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Hi Blue!  :)  Good to see you back. IMO, YMMV and all that.  I personally don’t like the Q&A format.  All the information is there either way.   A well laid out document will allow users to find what they need. People will read it or not in either style.  A very few start reading a newsgroup by looking for the FAQ.  Most read a couple of recent posts and join in, never knowing if there is a FAQ or not. As far as dissenting ideas, I had two sources in mind.  The antimed fanatics are one, you know they’ll have something to say about this. But they aren’t really the ones I had in mind.  I was mainly thinking of sincere posters that would like to have non-meds mentioned. I haven’t heard commentary on the idea of making this a "meds" FAQ rather than just SSRIs.  How many newcomers will even know what an SSRI is and if their med is one? tnx, drr – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <snippage *** I think it should be as most FAQs are, which is a question/answer format, seeing as it’s about "frequently asked questions."  What ‘ya think?  Would it read better if the info below were the made into answers? Anyone? Yup, I think it would read easier if the information is put in a question and answer format.  That would allow people to zero in on any particular concern or question they may have, which might help insure that the FAQ actually gets read. One thing that Dan suggested was giving counter info, of sorts. I thought about that, and that would lead to Breggin, at the very worst. Breggin has his web sites, and the anti-benzo squad has their FAQ for their mailing list. Hmmm….. gonna have to think about that one for awhile (and re-read the existing FAQ). Good start, yes?  I think it can become a real FAQ in a short time. Yes, it’s a good start.  Only time will tell whether it will actually serve its intended purpose, but how to know without trying? Best Wishes === Blue — Remove mypants to email me

– The second nicest guy on the internet Need the ASAP Mini-FAQ? A copy is at www.drrhodes.org

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –        Mark Brown tries to say… Think of it more as a reply, rather than a FAQ document for searching, and you might see what I feel the aim is. Is that not like telling people to read the F.Manal, just like some PC groups do.??? — Mark Brown I suppose the above comment can stand all by itself as your most helpful contribution to the FAQ on SSRIs.  A vast crevice of information, as always. — Sloopy:)

No. I don’t have the knowledge to contribute to the F.A.Q. WHAT I meant nothing beats discussion on individual topics. A  greater number of people would rather ask a question and have it answered rather than read lots , and lots of information e.g.. newbies, who don’t understand the basic concept of the various ways to deal with their condition Basically all I am saying is that the person or persons who write technical type things tend to write them from their  own knowledge or perspective, and newbies can easily get lost in techno-babble. I know that this does not add anything of a constructive nature. Y.M.M.V. naturally. — Mark Brown

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Sloopy wrote….. Begin there, or you "will" get Soy for Halloween!

I began…..so I expect tons of chocolates before the 31st   Jackie Celexa ( Citalopram ) Recommended starting dose is 5mgs. Increase dose in 5mg increments once a week. Therapeutic range varies between 20 to 40 mgs, although some may do well on 10mgs and others may need 60mgs. Luvox ( Fluvoxamine ) Recommended starting dose is 12.5 to 25mgs. If sensitive to medication, the starting dose of 12.5 mgs is probably best. Increase dose in 12.5 or 25mg increments once a week. Therapeutic range varies between 100-300 mgs. Paxil ( Paroxetine) Recommended starting dose is 5mgs, for people sensitive to medication, it might be better to start at 2.5mgs. Paxil is available in liquid form to make taking very small doses easier. Increase dose in 2.5 or 5mgs increments once a week. Therapeutic range varies between 10-60mgs. Prozac ( Fluoxetine ) Recommended starting dose is 5mgs, for people sensitive to medication, it might be better to start at 2.5mgs. Prozac is available in liquid form to make taking very small doses easier. Increase dose in 2.5 or 5mg increments once a week. Therapeutic range varies between 10-60mgs. Zoloft (Sertraline ) Recommended starting dose is 25mgs, for people sensitive to medication, it might be better to start at 12.5mgs. Increase dose in 12.5 or 25mg increments once a week. Therapeutic range varies between 100-200 mgs, although some may do well on 50mgs and others may need 250mgs. *It is suggested that you increase your dose once a week….however,  you can wean even slower if you feel that is best. This is not a race, sometimes going slower is much better. General Info about SSRI`s It usually takes up to 6-8 weeks for an SSRI antidepressant to really kick in. Some people have reported that their SSRI`s started to work as early as 2 weeks, but don`t get nervous if this doesn`t happen to you. Patience is important when weaning on antidepressants. Common SSRI side-effects which you may or may not experience, are… nausea, diarrhea, increased anxiety, dizziness, insomnia, fatigue, sleepiness, headache, tremors, dry mouth, weight gain and sexual dysfunction. They are normal, common and usually diminish with time, although some side-effects can be chronic. Any side-effect that is particularly bothersome should be discussed with your doctor. If nausea is a side-effect, take your medication with food, it can help decrease the stomach irritation SSRI`s can cause and that might decrease the nausea. Having trouble sleeping since starting your SSRI? If you are taking your antidepressant in the PM, a switch to the AM might help. Are you battling daytime fatigue since you started your SSRI? If you are taking your antidepressant in the AM, a switch to PM might help. Somtimes you have to experiment with the times you take your SSRI, there is no right or wrong time to take your med, it is what works best for you. Taking a benzodiazepine such as Xanax, Klonopin, Ativan, or Valium during the weaning on process can minimize the side-effects. It is a common practice to prescribe a benzodiazepine for people weaning on antidepressants. Benzodiazepines can also help when weaning off SSRI`s and are experiencing withdrawal symptoms. It is very important to never stop your SSRI AD cold turkey or you could experience withdrawal symptoms. Paxil is the most likely out of all the SSRI`s to cause withdrawal symptoms, and Prozac is the least likely.  If and when the time comes to stop taking your antidepressant, make sure it is done under the supervision of your doctor. A slow wean, decreasing your dose in small increments is the best way to go.  Even if you wean off your antidepressant slowly, there is still a chance you can experience "SSRI Discontinuation Syndrome", which basically means withdrawal symptoms. Some of these symptoms are dizziness, electric shock feelings, headaches, increased anxiety, irritability, insomnia, and nausea. These withdrawal symptoms are not dangerous, they will disappear with time. Make sure to inform your doctor if you are experiencing any withdrawal symptoms. Acting like a witch…..Eating 14 chocolate bars…..this isn`t a holiday for

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<snippage *** I think it should be as most FAQs are, which is a question/answer format, seeing as it’s about "frequently asked questions."  What ‘ya think?  Would it read better if the info below were the made into answers? Anyone?

Yup, I think it would read easier if the information is put in a question and answer format.  That would allow people to zero in on any particular concern or question they may have, which might help insure that the FAQ actually gets read. One thing that Dan suggested was giving counter info, of sorts. I thought about that, and that would lead to Breggin, at the very worst. Breggin has his web sites, and the anti-benzo squad has their FAQ for their mailing list.

Hmmm….. gonna have to think about that one for awhile (and re-read the existing FAQ). Good start, yes?  I think it can become a real FAQ in a short time.

Yes, it’s a good start.  Only time will tell whether it will actually serve its intended purpose, but how to know without trying? Best Wishes === Blue — Remove mypants to email me

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’d like to suggest that a FAQ on SSRIs be created. It can be used in the weekly FAQ if need be, but more to the point would be a single reply to those who are just starting SSRIs, and want to know the ins and outs, including the positives as well as the negatives (or things to be avoided, or some to "possibly" be expected with the YMMV caveat). *Paxil is more sedating than Prozac, for example. *Starting doses for each of the SSRIs, and the best way to ramp up, and in what increments, and over how long a period of time. *Withdrawal syndrome and half-lives of each (and what that means) *Cross over in switching from one to another *How one may be right, but others may not, for the given individual *What meds shouldn’t be mixed with SSRIs, and the fact that Luvox changes the metabolism of alprozolam, to in effect, double the alprazolam dose. *Don’t mix with an MAOI inhibitor *Don’t mix with herbs unless checked with the doctor or pharmacist. *What about mixing SSRIs and alcohol? *What about sexual dysfunction, if it occurs?   etc., etc., etc…. Hmmm.. there’s a very skinny "basic" start.  Open forum as not a *professional* FAQ, but an ASAP FAQ, based on facts known, and experiences. Once completed, if this could be put on someone’s web site, where there’s space, all the better. No big deal there… I’m sure one of us would be willing to fork over some space. I have lots of spaces but I’m not sure if the URL of www.cobol-death.f2s.com would be great for an SSRI site do you??;-) I’d think this would be a good document, that can evolve with new data, as needed, but mainly used as an informative *tool*. — Sloopy:)   < suggestions? – thoughts? Sounds like a good idea. It would be very good for new people to read up on SSRI’s and not have to deal with some inconsistent information. I would like to see what the others think. I for one would vote yes. Jeff…

I take it , Jeff, when you mention Slopy you are having a joke with us. PLEASE-)))) — Mark Brown

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I’d like to suggest that a FAQ on SSRIs be created.

Excellent idea.  Since no one (hopefully) will have experience will all the SSRI’s, there needs to be a way to compile book data with experience. < suggestions? – thoughts?

Seems like an offline task to compile.  Need some volunteers.  I would be willing. Gwen

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I’d like to suggest that a FAQ on SSRIs be created. snip Sounds like a great idea to me

Anything would be a  good idea to you..!! — Mark Brown

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Well, here are my thoughts on this subject. 1.     We need a coordinator to grease wheels       and keep out the lint.  I nominate Sloopy.  :)       But I do have the time and interest myself.

No wonder the smiley after sloop’s name -(( – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -2.     I think we should create a med FAQ with SSRIs       as one major topic.  TCAs, benzodiazepines       and misc could be others.  This would be subject       to length requirements.  1000 lines is probably a       good maximum for one FAQ. 3.     Discussing the contents on ASAP has merit, but       this might not be the appropriate place.  Certainly       the progress and calls for comments should be       on ASAP. 4      Most of the information in this FAQ will be anecdotal       in nature.  It should be clear that that this is the case       with references to official and not so official       information. 5.     A decision should be made early on about how to       handle dissenting ideas.  Especially controversial       ones.  At first glance, I think that providing a section       about dissenting ideas with links provided by the       dissenters is sufficient. 6.     The final [sic] version should be regularly posted       at ASAP and with the news.answers system.  I can       help whoever does the final posting with this process. tnx, drr        "Gwenivere" says… Excellent idea.  Since no one (hopefully) will have experience will all the SSRI’s, there needs to be a way to compile book data with experience. < suggestions? – thoughts? Seems like an offline task to compile. Yak!  I’m hoping it can be worked on right here…. but…. Need some volunteers.  I would be willing. If it becomes something that doesn’t pan out in the open forum, then yup! A few of us can get together, put the collective knowledge <burp to keyboard, and then "present" what’s been compiled.  I’d like Ian’s input included (he’s not readily available right now) – although it might not be a FAQ but rather a novel;) Of course, there are several here, too many to mention by name, who I’d like to see jump in here and add bits and pieces, to lay down the groundwork – if not the basis for the FAQ, all together. Am I confusing you, Maui?  LOL

Yes — Mark Brown

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Would the FAQ include some of the more commonly used TCAs and Oddball ADs as well? Boyd – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sounds like a great idea.  When are you going to finish it?  :P Seriously, if no one jumps up and wants it, I’ll do it.  My ISP increased my file quota by 30 MB so I think there’s room …. If someone does want to take this on, I can add a summary to one of the other FAQs and a link to where they can get the rest of the info. tnx, drr I’d like to suggest that a FAQ on SSRIs be created. It can be used in the weekly FAQ if need be, but more to the point would be a single reply to those who are just starting SSRIs, and want to know the ins and outs, including the positives as well as the negatives (or things to be avoided, or some to "possibly" be expected with the YMMV caveat). *Paxil is more sedating than Prozac, for example. *Starting doses for each of the SSRIs, and the best way to ramp up, and in what increments, and over how long a period of time. *Withdrawal syndrome and half-lives of each (and what that means) *Cross over in switching from one to another *How one may be right, but others may not, for the given individual *What meds shouldn’t be mixed with SSRIs, and the fact that Luvox changes the metabolism of alprozolam, to in effect, double the alprazolam dose. *Don’t mix with an MAOI inhibitor *Don’t mix with herbs unless checked with the doctor or pharmacist. *What about mixing SSRIs and alcohol? *What about sexual dysfunction, if it occurs?   etc., etc., etc…. Hmmm.. there’s a very skinny "basic" start.  Open forum as not a *professional* FAQ, but an ASAP FAQ, based on facts known, and experiences. Once completed, if this could be put on someone’s web site, where there’s space, all the better. I’d think this would be a good document, that can evolve with new data, as needed, but mainly used as an informative *tool*. — The second nicest guy on the internet Need the ASAP Mini-FAQ? A copy is at www.drrhodes.org

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’d like to suggest that a FAQ on SSRIs be created. It can be used in the weekly FAQ if need be, but more to the point would be a single reply to those who are just starting SSRIs, and want to know the ins and outs, including the positives as well as the negatives (or things to be avoided, or some to "possibly" be expected with the YMMV caveat). *Paxil is more sedating than Prozac, for example. *Starting doses for each of the SSRIs, and the best way to ramp up, and in what increments, and over how long a period of time. *Withdrawal syndrome and half-lives of each (and what that means) *Cross over in switching from one to another *How one may be right, but others may not, for the given individual *What meds shouldn’t be mixed with SSRIs, and the fact that Luvox changes the metabolism of alprozolam, to in effect, double the alprazolam dose. *Don’t mix with an MAOI inhibitor *Don’t mix with herbs unless checked with the doctor or pharmacist. *What about mixing SSRIs and alcohol? *What about sexual dysfunction, if it occurs?   etc., etc., etc…. Hmmm.. there’s a very skinny "basic" start.  Open forum as not a *professional* FAQ, but an ASAP FAQ, based on facts known, and experiences. Once completed, if this could be put on someone’s web site, where there’s space, all the better.

No big deal there… I’m sure one of us would be willing to fork over some space. I have lots of spaces but I’m not sure if the URL of www.cobol-death.f2s.com would be great for an SSRI site do you??;-) I’d think this would be a good document, that can evolve with new data, as needed, but mainly used as an informative *tool*. — Sloopy:)   < suggestions? – thoughts?

Sounds like a good idea. It would be very good for new people to read up on SSRI’s and not have to deal with some inconsistent information. I would like to see what the others think. I for one would vote yes. Jeff…

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I’d like to suggest that a FAQ on SSRIs be created.

This sounds like a good idea to me. -David-

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I’d like to suggest that a FAQ on SSRIs be created.

snip Sounds like a great idea to me — Jon Guite Live support and chat for anxiety and panic disorders daily at #anx/pan For details see http://www.skcldv.demon.co.uk/anxpanw.htm

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Sloopy wrote…… I’d like to suggest that a FAQ on SSRIs be created.

Cool!! Go for it Jackie Acting like a witch…..Eating 14 chocolate bars…..this isn`t a holiday for

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sloopy wrote…… I’d like to suggest that a FAQ on SSRIs be created. Cool!! Go for it LOL! Well, I was hoping, that the collective experiences and wisdom here on ASAP would use this thread to *create* the FAQ.  Add some, delete some, and come up with a final draft – that most agree to. I began with a draft of some basics, that need to be expounded on. Begin there, or you "will" get Soy for Halloween! — Sloopy:)

I don’t have much experience of SSRI’s, except that Prozac had me climbing the walls, but I’d be glad to help in any other way I can. — Jon Guite Live support and chat for anxiety and panic disorders daily at #anx/pan For details see http://www.skcldv.demon.co.uk/anxpanw.htm

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Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <major snippage I’ve been in constant pain for months and they’ve run more tests than I wanted them to, cat scans and ultrasounds in addition to blood tests. They tell me that pain can be from being BP. Are you saying not? brownee Brownee, I’ve had chronic back pain since a teenager, some…er…30 years ago. I even had an operation on a couple of disks back in ‘84, but was still in a lot of pain and used a cane to get around, had a handicapped plate, the whole bit.  When I started on my first antidepressant, I became pain free within three months.  That was 5+ years ago, and I don’t even remember where my cane is now.  So in my case, the pain was certainly related at least to the depressive side of bipolar;  but since I’ve been hypomanic nearly all my life, I’d vote that it’s the BP making me feel the pain.

That makes me think — an occasionally meritorious thing to do IMO — if not carried to excess of course. I wonder if BP-heightened sensitivities could somehow magnify small "normal" aches and pains into what becomes excruciating sensations for us??? It’s like the pain signals are being processed through a mental amplifier before impacting upon the portions of our brains that register pain. Hummm …. So it is all in my head after all. <G Brian

James

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hey mc, same here. recently increased zoloft and all achey all over. also last summer while manic and on no meds i was in terrible pain that i couldn’t explain–neck, back, joints, bones, feet—even my hair hurt. must be that hypersensitivity or maybe the psychic pain manifesting as physical.     best, lny

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Hi Brownee–I have major aches and pains, too. I’ve blamed it on fibromyalgia–or something– for quite some time…… Just read tonight that one of the more obscure side effects of Zoloft ( and the other SSRI’s, I assume ) is major joint aches…..Interesting, since I’ve been alot worse lately and have also recently upped my dose of Z. You might also do a search on Substance P. It’s a neurotransmitter that is related to pain transmission and they’ve also found it to have marvelous AD effects…..They’re making it sound like it’s gonna be the next generation of successful ADs…..and pain relievers.   mc

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <major snippage I’ve been in constant pain for months and they’ve run more tests than I wanted them to, cat scans and ultrasounds in addition to blood tests. They tell me that pain can be from being BP. Are you saying not? brownee Brownee, I’ve had chronic back pain since a teenager, some…er…30 years ago. I even had an operation on a couple of disks back in ‘84, but was still in a lot of pain and used a cane to get around, had a handicapped plate, the whole bit.  When I started on my first antidepressant, I became pain free within three months.  That was 5+ years ago, and I don’t even remember where my cane is now.  So in my case, the pain was certainly related at least to the depressive side of bipolar;  but since I’ve been hypomanic nearly all my life, I’d vote that it’s the BP making me feel the pain.

Hey, thanks for giving me some hope that there will be some relief to this pain. I have a lot of joint pain which they insist is not arthritis and sometimes move so stiffly and awkwardly that I scare the cats. I was not looking forward to that for the rest of my life. That makes me think — an occasionally meritorious thing to do IMO — if not carried to excess of course. I wonder if BP-heightened sensitivities could somehow magnify small "normal" aches and pains into what becomes excruciating sensations for us??? It’s like the pain signals are being processed through a mental amplifier before impacting upon the portions of our brains that register pain. Hummm …. So it is all in my head after all. <G Brian James

That’s kind of what I was thinking throughout the "intrusions" thread. Maybe it’s all the same thing. Maybe we’re just so hypersensitive to everything. On the other hand, when I had surgery to relieve pain, the doctors felt that, based on my behavior, I could wait until the next non-emergency surgery, 2 weeks away. When I woke up, the doctor was there apologizing for making me wait those 2 weeks — what he’d found inside would have made him schedule immediate surgery if he’d known. Maybe we learn to "maintain" in front of the "normals"? Well, speaking of intrusions, today was a nice rainy day in the NW and I didn’t have to leave the house today or even do too much around the house and got to enjoy the peaceful sound of rain on the skylight. No kids shrieking, no bass thrumming, no basketballs thwumping. no dogs barking. Just rain. It was wonderful. brownee

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Question:

Though I am nearly having a panic attack just –reading– these posts, it is extremely comforting to know I am not the "only" one !  mc

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I forgot to mention something else that helps me with intrusions at work. I keep a white noise box, it doesn’t drown out everything, but it actually works quite well. They sell small ones that have like five sound effects (rain, ocean, white noise, babbling brook and rainforest.) Just a thought, if you can’t alleviate the intrusions, cover them up. It’s kind of like when your face breaks out.  There is no stopping the problem, but if you are like me, you cover that right up : ) Regards, Julie —

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brownee – I have a quick question about your attempt at Effexor.  For the first 22 years that I had this disorder I came as close as any of my pdocs had seen to a unipolar manic — no sustained depressions, when I came off the manias (which were acute and severe) I went back to normal.  Then 3.5 years ago I had a triple whammy stress within one week right after a mania, and went into my first depression.  After 2 years of the depression, when I still showed no sign of coming out of it I finally talked my conservative pdoc into effexor. We ramped up so slowly I could scream, taking 6 months to get up to a therapeutic dosage.  But then it worked, and I never got manic (still on the Effexor).  Now, many moons later, I am finally getting off the effexor. How long did your pdoc take to bring you up to full speed, and do you think that going manic was the effexor or could it have been how quickly you were put on it?  Sympathetically, -Gandalf Souls are like athletes that need opponents worthy of them if they are to be tried and extended and pushed to the full use of their powers, and rewarded according to their capacity. (Thomas Merton) |I’ve tried Effexor and it has been the most effective AD I’ve ever |taken, so much so that it pushed me into the first purely manic episode |I’d ever had after decades of mixed episodes. But it too made that |horrible noise in my head, so now I’m trying Wellbutrin. | |brownee

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My pdoc had me increase by 37.5 mg every 3 days until I was up to 300 mg. Starting it had some of the worst side effects of any medication I’ve ever had, but stopping it, at the same rate, was even worse. I had terrible nausea whenever I was even late with a dose, but at least that reminded me to take it. Cutting down I just had to live through the nausea. I’d been on only Prozac since 91 because I’d only been to idiots since then until I crashed big-time in December and got in to see a pdoc with a clue. Even when I spent 4 months in bed a few years ago, the doctors just told me to keep taking my Prozac and I’d be ok. So my experience about 6 weeks ago of my first purely manic episode was such a shock to my system after so many years (40+) of unrelenting depression relieved only by mixed episodes. I really couldn’t say with such limited experience on various ADs just what it was that threw me into mania. Seems like taking 6 months to get to a therapeutic dose isn’t any smarter than going too fast. I was in such bad shape that I wasn’t eating at all and was in danger of death from the kind of heart failure that anorexics die of, so the pdoc needed to do whatever it took to snap me out of it. brownee – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – brownee – I have a quick question about your attempt at Effexor.  For the first 22 years that I had this disorder I came as close as any of my pdocs had seen to a unipolar manic — no sustained depressions, when I came off the manias (which were acute and severe) I went back to normal.  Then 3.5 years ago I had a triple whammy stress within one week right after a mania, and went into my first depression.  After 2 years of the depression, when I still showed no sign of coming out of it I finally talked my conservative pdoc into effexor. We ramped up so slowly I could scream, taking 6 months to get up to a therapeutic dosage.  But then it worked, and I never got manic (still on the Effexor).  Now, many moons later, I am finally getting off the effexor. How long did your pdoc take to bring you up to full speed, and do you think that going manic was the effexor or could it have been how quickly you were put on it?  Sympathetically, -Gandalf Souls are like athletes that need opponents worthy of them if they are to be tried and extended and pushed to the full use of their powers, and rewarded according to their capacity. (Thomas Merton) |I’ve tried Effexor and it has been the most effective AD I’ve ever |taken, so much so that it pushed me into the first purely manic episode |I’d ever had after decades of mixed episodes. But it too made that |horrible noise in my head, so now I’m trying Wellbutrin. | |brownee

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When my meds are not working that is when the "intrusions" are most annoying to me.  It is one of the ways that I know that it is time for another trip to the pdoc.  I could kill my hubby when he eats an apple

Then I must need a lot of trips to the pdoc, cause my meds never work But we’ll see if Neurontin works, also the psych (therp) I started seeing… ..always, Treacha ..as the twig bends…so the tree grows…

bw

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brownee – I have a quick question about your attempt at Effexor.  For the first 22 years

Hi Brownee and Gandalf, My motto is "Start low and go SLOW!!! That way effects can be judiciously monitored. Peace, Reach beyond your grasp!

Response:

My motto is "Start low and go SLOW!!! HEAR, HEAR! With Effexor, it is especially important.  I went into a manic state you would have to have seen to believe when I was put on a huge dose of it.  Besides, that should be the rule for all meds.  IMHO

Amen! All pdocs should learn that on their very first day of residency. Also most meds require them to be tapered off — not stopping them cold turkey. Slowly on — slowly off. Your friend on the rollercoaster from hell, Shawn

Best regards from, James

Response:

<Posted and Mailed to Brownee [snipped] Kids shrieking and bass sounds are on my pet peeve list too. I’ve wondered though just what it is. When I complain about things like that to "normals" they just give me a disgusted look like can’t you come up with something more important to complain about and say everybody resents unwanted noise. But does the unwanted noise feel like physical assault, which is exactly what it feels like to me, to the "normals"? A minor inconvenience to others is acoustic "rape" to me. Thus I prefer to be online early in the morning before the "rapists" awaken. Thanks for using physical assault verbiage too. I’ve likened it to rape too but been told to chill. A relative tells me to "tune it out" while making tuning motions over her ears. Would she be telling me to tune out rape too?

If they don’t walk in our shoes, they can’t possibly understand or relate. [snipped] I no longer recommend regular Effexor now that the extended release (XR) formulation has come out. Originally regular Effexor was prescribed twice per day for me. I went into URC as the med came into my system and then departed — this was repeated twice per day. Once I realized what was happening, I took my total daily prescribed dose, divided it into 4 equal portions, and took it QID. My URC problem was solved immediately! Now I take Effexor XR BID with no cycling whatsoever. You might have a similar positive experience with Effexor XR. My pdoc just doesn’t give me any extended release anything, even though I tell him I can’t keep track of time very well these days. Right now I’m on regular Wellbutrin, which he wrote on the prescription to be taken 3X daily, at least 6 hours apart. How does he expect me to be able to do that when I can’t keep track of time, which I’d reminded him of minutes before? I’ve been on it for 2 weeks and haven’t made the third dose once yet.

Does your watch have an alarm function on it that you can set to remind you to take your meds? If not you should be able to buy an inexpensive digital travel alarm that would do the job. Is the XR more expensive? (HMO-paid Rxs)

Yes. But percentage wise not that much more — particularly considering the benefits you receive. I guess that’s why they’re asking what time of day I get manic and how long it lasts but I just can’t keep track of time well enough to tell them.

How about recording your mood index (1-10) every 15 minutes? You will need an alarm to remember to write the value down. Also record when you take your meds. Plotting your mood index can show med-induced URC. The reason that I mentioned Remeron is that it also works with the same two essential neurotransmitters (norepinephrine and serotonin) — however this med’s mechanism is different from than of Effexor. Wellbutrin addresses a third neurotransmitter (dopamine). BTW the SSRIs don’t do much for me (other than sending me hypomanic). So I infer that my brain needs more stimulation from norepinephrine (think adrenaline for the brain). Other options to consider are mood stabilizer meds that affect GABA (Neurontin and Gabatril). I have no personal experience with Gabatril but I have had truly exceptional results from Neurontin. YBMV. In what way is Neurontin different from Depakote?

Oh, about the difference between a 1920 Ford Model "T" and a 1999 Ferrari. There is no comparison whatsoever. But Neurontin is a bit tricky to "drive". It is very powerful and you can spin out and "lose" control — particularly since most pdocs don’t have the faintest idea how to prescribe it.  My guesstimate is that if properly prescribed, Neurontin would be effective for around 50% of those trying it as monotherapy. With polytherapy the percentage should increase. BTW I’m in the process of updating my FAQ on Mood Stabilizers used in the US. I’m up to a dozen and still counting. I doubt if I will post it today since I’m getting rather tired — and the Lord knows I need my beauty sleep. <G Depakote is the HMOs standard drug for mania, other drugs have to be justified by bad side-effects or lack of effectiveness.

<SIGH!!! Penny wise and pound foolish as always. I’ve only been on Depakote for 6 weeks, too soon to tell.

I suggest giving Depakote 2 months just to be sure. You should be in the established "therapeutic" range for 2 consecutive blood tests (usually a week apart). Your liver function should also be checked to make sure its not being adversely affected. Have you lost any hair or gained any weight? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – BTW I think it was you that asked something about how certain meds can induce URC? I was trying to respond when something screwed up and I lost several posts. I may take some time off and try to formulate and solve the differential equations to demonstrate the effect of a short half life drug has on stability. It shouldn’t be too hard — assuming of course I can shift my brain into high gear. An interesting challenge. I haven’t done any math for more than ten years. BTW I even use a calculator to do basic arithmetic. <Sigh! Yes, it was me. I know you’ve been not feeling well these last few days, James, so I was hoping someone else would post something pointing me to some of your old posts or a Web page or something. This is the first time in my life I’ve been under active pdoc care during a crash-and-burn (I usually just go into total isolation and wait for it to be over) so the frequent changing of meds and constant questioning (what time of day do you start to get manic? how long does it last? etc.) are really disconcerting. I don’t know if what I’m going through now is what I do anyway, just haven’t been dwelling on it, or because of all the meds, or what. To reduce the confusion and to hopefully introduce some measure of order in the midst of chaos, I NEVER like to make more than one med or dosage change at a time. I then wait for a sufficient time and see what transpires. Now obviously in a hospital situation more aggressive measures can (and should) be taken. But what’s sufficient time?

It all depends on several factors (is the med metabolized?, if so how rapidly?, what is the removal half life?, and how long does it take for the brain require for it to become sensitized to the med?). It is the latter factor which gives rise to the greatest uncertainty. Because some people’s brains apparently never become sensitized and so the med is not effective for them. Others become desensitized and a med switch is necessary. I have no idea whether the meds I’m now on (Depakote and Wellbutrin) are doing enough of what they’re supposed to be doing, just that they aren’t having sufficiently bad side effects that I need to change. Up until this crash, I had been a slow cycler, but this time, events had been set in motion before the crash that are carrying me along in such a way that the crash would have been different anyway. (For example, this is the first time I’ve had disability insurance and so the first time I’ve had to deal with a bureaucracy during what is usually my isolation/recovery period.) So between just being totally screwed over by the severity of the depressive crash in December and these other influences, I’m having a very hard time judging anything.

Bureaucratic incompetencies are enough to drive a well person insane!!! James, I join the rest of those asking you to take care of yourself. Thank you! However as long as I don’t move, I seem to be doing OK. But I am intending additional bed rest. Then I’ll have to figure out some way of posting binary graphical files that people could decode. Or maybe I should just create a Web site? Any suggestions from anyone as to which is the best way to go? I guess creating a Web site would provide greater access — but since I have never done any HTML programming, it would be just one more thing for me to learn. I can’t afford to buy any of these specialized programs that aid in Web page creation. Besides I run 16-bit Windows. HTML is a snap. I had my first web page up within a couple of days of starting. Haven’t you done computer-type stuff before?

Sure, I’ve had experience with a couple dozen or so programming languages and operating systems. I presume there are tutorial Web pages about HTML. Do you have any URLs to recommend? My biggest mental block was that HTML is so crude it was beneath my dignity to learn. You don’t want anything very cutesy anyway, just a straightforward presentation of the facts. That’s assuming, of course, that you’re in a mental state to learn anything right now. You whip out these facts so readily that I assume you’re currently in good mental shape, just not physical, so maybe that was a wrong assumption. Hope you’re doing better today.

Mentally I’m doing OK. I just don’t want to bite off more than I can comfortably chew time wise. The number of NG posts seem to have increased of late. I hate to let them go while I’m dinking around with DEs and HTML. brownee

Best wishes from, James

Response:

[snipped] Kids shrieking and bass sounds are on my pet peeve list too. I’ve wondered though just what it is. When I complain about things like that to "normals" they just give me a disgusted look like can’t you come up with something more important to complain about and say everybody resents unwanted noise. But does the unwanted noise feel like physical assault, which is exactly what it feels like to me, to the "normals"? A minor inconvenience to others is acoustic "rape" to me. Thus I prefer to be online early in the morning before the "rapists" awaken.

Thanks for using physical assault verbage too. I’ve likened it to rape too but been told to chill. A relative tells me to "tune it out" while making tuning motions over her ears. Would she be telling me to tune out rape too? [snipped] I no longer recommend regular Effexor now that the extended release (XR) formulation has come out. Originally regular Effexor was prescribed twice per day for me. I went into URC as the med came into my system and then departed — this was repeated twice per day. Once I realized what was happening, I took my total daily prescribed dose, divided it into 4 equal portions, and took it QID. My URC problem was solved immediately! Now I take Effexor XR BID with no cycling whatsoever. You might have a similar positive experience with Effexor XR.

My pdoc just doesn’t give me any extended release anything, even though I tell him I can’t keep track of time very well these days. Right now I’m on regular Wellbutrin, which he wrote on the prescription to be taken 3xdaily, at least 6 hours apart. How does he expect me to be able to do that when I can’t keep track of time, which I’d reminded him of minutes before? I’ve been on it for 2 weeks and haven’t made the third dose once yet. Is the XR more expensive? (HMO-paid rx’s) I guess that’s why they’re asking what time of day I get manic and how long it lasts but I just can’t keep track of time well enough to tell them. The reason that I mentioned Remeron is that it also works with the same two essential neurotransmitters (norepinephrine and serotonin) — however this med’s mechanism is different from than of Effexor. Wellbutrin addresses a third neurotransmitter (dopamine). BTW the SSRIs don’t do much for me (other than sending me hypomanic). So I infer that my brain needs more stimulation from norepinephrine (think adrenaline for the brain). Other options to consider are mood stabilizer meds that affect GABA (Neurontin and Gabatril). I have no personal experience with Gabatril but I have had truly exceptional results from Neurontin. YBMV.

In what way is Neurontin different from Depakote? Depakote is the HMO’s standard drug for mania, other drugs have to be justified by bad side-effects or lack of effectiveness. I’ve only been on Depakote for 6 weeks, too soon to tell. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – BTW I think it was you that asked something about how certain meds can induce URC? I was trying to respond when something screwed up and I lost several posts. I may take some time off and try to formulate and solve the differential equations to demonstrate the effect of a short half life drug has on stability. It shouldn’t be too hard — assuming of course I can shift my brain into high gear. An interesting challenge. I haven’t done any math for more than ten years. BTW I even use a calculator to do basic arithmetic. <Sigh! Yes, it was me. I know you’ve been not feeling well these last few days, James, so I was hoping someone else would post something pointing me to some of your old posts or a Web page or something. This is the first time in my life I’ve been under active pdoc care during a crash-and-burn (I usually just go into total isolation and wait for it to be over) so the frequent changing of meds and constant questioning (what time of day do you start to get manic? how long does it last? etc.) are really disconcerting. I don’t know if what I’m going through now is what I do anyway, just haven’t been dwelling on it, or because of all the meds, or what. To reduce the confusion and to hopefully introduce some measure of order in the midst of chaos, I NEVER like to make more than one med or dosage change at a time. I then wait for a sufficient time and see what transpires. Now obviously in a hospital situation more aggressive measures can (and should) be taken.

But what’s sufficient time? I have no idea whether the meds I’m now on (Depakote and Wellbutrin) are doing enough of what they’re supposed to be doing, just that they aren’t having sufficiently bad side-effects that I need to change. Up until this crash, I had been a slow cycler, but this time, events had been set in motion before the crash that are carrying me along in such a way that the crash would have been different anyway. (For example, this is the first time I’ve had disability insurance and so the first time I’ve had to deal with a bureaucracy during what is usually my isolation/recovery period.) So between just being totally screwed over by the severity of the depressive crash in December and these other influences, I’m having a very hard time judging anything. James, I join the rest of those asking you to take care of yourself. Thank you! However as long as I don’t move, I seem to be doing OK. But I am intending additional bed rest. Then I’ll have to figure out some way of posting binary graphical files that people could decode. Or maybe I should just create a Web site? Any suggestions from anyone as to which is the best way to go? I guess creating a Web site would provide greater access — but since I have never done any HTML programming, it would be just one more thing for me to learn. I can’t afford to buy any of these specialized programs that aid in Web page creation. Besides I run 16-bit Windows.

HTML is a snap. I had my first web page up within a couple of days of starting. Haven’t you done computer-type stuff before? My biggest mental block was that HTML is so crude it was beneath my dignity to learn. You don’t want anything very cutesy anyway, just a straightforward presentation of the facts. That’s assuming, of course, that you’re in a mental state to learn anything right now. You whip out these facts so readily that I assume you’re currently in good mental shape, just not physical, so maybe that was a wrong assumption. Hope you’re doing better today. brownee Best regards from, James

brownee

Response:

<Posted and Mailed to Brownee – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – After I talked with my pdoc yesterday, I realized what my problem must be. It’s not a complete breakthru, I must have known it before.  A real breakthru would be to overcome these — intrusions. <snipped To me, the worst is the thwump-thwump-thwump of a basketball. On a good day I can drown it out making my own noise inside but on a bad day I’m in bed in a fetal position with hands over my head sobbing. All those noises feel like physical assaults, not just sound. A thump, thump bass sound does that to me. I don’t mind basketball sounds. Perhaps having played it may have some bearing. Another sound that grates on my nerves is the shrieks of young girls playing. They are just having fun. I assure you that it is NO FUN for me!!! Kids shrieking and bass sounds are on my pet peeve list too. I’ve wondered though just what it is. When I complain about things like that to "normals" they just give me a disgusted look like can’t you come up with something more important to complain about and say everybody resents unwanted noise. But does the unwanted noise feel like physical assault, which is exactly what it feels like to me, to the "normals"?

A minor inconvenience to others is acoustic "rape" to me. Thus I prefer to be online early in the morning before the "rapists" awaken. My pdoc says SSRIs help this problem but we haven’t been able to find one that doesn’t give me a rare side-effect — a staticky noise in my brain, like electricity going off in there. Makes taking all the other noises even harder. So maybe my pdoc isn’t right about this one. Just a thought: Have you ever tried Effexor XR or Remeron? No guarantees! Also there is the new antidepressant Celexa that reputedly has fewer adverse side effects than any other SSRI. I’ve tried Effexor and it has been the most effective AD I’ve ever taken, so much so that it pushed me into the first purely manic episode I’d ever had after decades of mixed episodes. But it too made that horrible noise in my head, so now I’m trying Wellbutrin.

I no longer recommend regular Effexor now that the extended release (XR) formulation has come out. Originally regular Effexor was prescribed twice per day for me. I went into URC as the med came into my system and then departed — this was repeated twice per day. Once I realized what was happening, I took my total daily prescribed dose, divided it into 4 equal portions, and took it QID. My URC problem was solved immediately! Now I take Effexor XR BID with no cycling whatsoever. You might have a similar positive experience with Effexor XR. The reason that I mentioned Remeron is that it also works with the same two essential neurotransmitters (norepinephrine and serotonin) — however this med’s mechanism is different from than of Effexor. Wellbutrin addresses a third neurotransmitter (dopamine). BTW the SSRIs don’t do much for me (other than sending me hypomanic). So I infer that my brain needs more stimulation from norepinephrine (think adrenaline for the brain). Other options to consider are mood stabilizer meds that affect GABA (Neurontin and Gabatril). I have no personal experience with Gabatril but I have had truly exceptional results from Neurontin. YBMV. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – BTW I think it was you that asked something about how certain meds can induce URC? I was trying to respond when something screwed up and I lost several posts. I may take some time off and try to formulate and solve the differential equations to demonstrate the effect of a short half life drug has on stability. It shouldn’t be too hard — assuming of course I can shift my brain into high gear. An interesting challenge. I haven’t done any math for more than ten years. BTW I even use a calculator to do basic arithmetic. <Sigh! Yes, it was me. I know you’ve been not feeling well these last few days, James, so I was hoping someone else would post something pointing me to some of your old posts or a Web page or something. This is the first time in my life I’ve been under active pdoc care during a crash-and-burn (I usually just go into total isolation and wait for it to be over) so the frequent changing of meds and constant questioning (what time of day do you start to get manic? how long does it last? etc.) are really disconcerting. I don’t know if what I’m going through now is what I do anyway, just haven’t been dwelling on it, or because of all the meds, or what.

To reduce the confusion and to hopefully introduce some measure of order in the midst of chaos, I NEVER like to make more than one med or dosage change at a time. I then wait for a sufficient time and see what transpires. Now obviously in a hospital situation more aggressive measures can (and should) be taken. James, I join the rest of those asking you to take care of yourself.

Thank you! However as long as I don’t move, I seem to be doing OK. But I am intending additional bed rest. Then I’ll have to figure out some way of posting binary graphical files that people could decode. Or maybe I should just create a Web site?

Any suggestions from anyone as to which is the best way to go? I guess creating a Web site would provide greater access — but since I have never done any HTML programming, it would be just one more thing for me to learn. I can’t afford to buy any of these specialized programs that aid in Web page creation. Besides I run 16-bit Windows. brownee

Best regards from, James

Response:

When my meds are not working that is when the "intrusions" are most annoying to me.  It is one of the ways that I know that it is time for another trip to the pdoc.  I could kill my hubby when he eats an apple ..always, Treacha ..as the twig bends…so the tree grows…

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <Posted and Mailed to Brownee After I talked with my pdoc yesterday, I realized what my problem must be. It’s not a complete breakthru, I must have known it before.  A real breakthru would be to overcome these — intrusions. <snipped To me, the worst is the thwump-thwump-thwump of a basketball. On a good day I can drown it out making my own noise inside but on a bad day I’m in bed in a fetal position with hands over my head sobbing. All those noises feel like physical assaults, not just sound. A thump, thump bass sound does that to me. I don’t mind basketball sounds. Perhaps having played it may have some bearing. Another sound that grates on my nerves is the shrikes of young girls playing. They are just having fun. I assure you that it is NO FUN for me!!!

Kids shrieking and bass sounds are on my pet peeve list too. I’ve wondered though just what it is. When I complain about things like that to "normals" they just give me a disgusted look like can’t you come up with something more important to complain about and say everybody resents unwanted noise. But does the unwanted noise feel like physical assault, which is exactly what it feels like to me, to the "nromals"? My pdoc says SSRIs help this problem but we haven’t been able to find one that doesn’t give me a rare side-effect — a staticky noise in my brain, like electricity going off in there. Makes taking all the other noises even harder. So maybe my pdoc isn’t right about this one. Just a thought: Have you ever tried Effexor XR or Remeron? No guarantees! Also there is the new antidepressant Celexa that reputedly has fewer adverse side effects than any other SSRI.

I’ve tried Effexor and it has been the most effective AD I’ve ever taken, so much so that it pushed me into the first purely manic episode I’d ever had after decades of mixed episodes. But it too made that horrible noise in my head, so now I’m trying Wellbutrin. BTW I think it was you that asked something about how certain meds can induce URC? I was trying to respond when something screwed up and I lost several posts. I may take some time off and try to formulate and solve the differential equations to demonstrate the effect of a short half life drug has on stability. It shouldn’t be too hard — assuming of course I can shift my brain into high gear. An interesting challenge. I haven’t done any math for more than ten years. BTW I even use a calculator to do basic arithmetic. <Sigh!

Yes, it was me. I know you’ve been not feeling well these last few days, James, so I was hoping someone else would post something pointing me to some of your old posts or a webpage or something. This is the first time in my life I’ve been under active pdoc care during a crash-and-burn (I usually just go into total isolation and wait for it to be over) so the frequent changing of meds and constant questioning (what time of day do you start to get manic? how long does it last? etc) are really disconcerting. I don’t know if what I’m going through now is what I do anyway, just haven’t been dwelling on it, or because of all the meds, or what. James, I join the rest of those asking you to take care of yourself. Then I’ll have to figure out some way of posting binary graphical files that people could decode. Or maybe I should just create a Web site? brownee Best regards from, James

brownee

Response:

<snip That is tough, I can relate.  I get overwhelmed by intrusions alot.  I need peace time.  Time by myself to rejuvenate or I am lost.

<snip me too. You are optimistic, I think, to think of these things as intrusions. I whine about "painful stimuli".  Also, as my dearest friends know…I am developing agorophobia as a coping mechanism.  Seriously, not afraid to leave the house, just not willing to pay the price much anymore. Kicker, isn’t it, when even good times are stressors?! Understand completely (?), regards from julie

Response:

<Posted and Mailed to Brownee After I talked with my pdoc yesterday, I realized what my problem must be. It’s not a complete breakthru, I must have known it before.  A real breakthru would be to overcome these — intrusions. <snipped To me, the worst is the thwump-thwump-thwump of a basketball. On a good day I can drown it out making my own noise inside but on a bad day I’m in bed in a fetal position with hands over my head sobbing. All those noises feel like physical assaults, not just sound.

A thump, thump bass sound does that to me. I don’t mind basketball sounds. Perhaps having played it may have some bearing. Another sound that grates on my nerves is the shrikes of young girls playing. They are just having fun. I assure you that it is NO FUN for me!!! My pdoc says SSRIs help this problem but we haven’t been able to find one that doesn’t give me a rare side-effect — a staticky noise in my brain, like electricity going off in there. Makes taking all the other noises even harder. So maybe my pdoc isn’t right about this one.

Just a thought: Have you ever tried Effexor XR or Remeron? No guarantees! Also there is the new antidepressant Celexa that reputedly has fewer adverse side effects than any other SSRI. BTW I think it was you that asked something about how certain meds can induce URC? I was trying to respond when something screwed up and I lost several posts. I may take some time off and try to formulate and solve the differential equations to demonstrate the effect of a short half life drug has on stability. It shouldn’t be too hard — assuming of course I can shift my brain into high gear. An interesting challenge. I haven’t done any math for more than ten years. BTW I even use a calculator to do basic arithmetic. <Sigh! Then I’ll have to figure out some way of posting binary graphical files that people could decode. Or maybe I should just create a Web site? brownee

Best regards from, James

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A perfect illustration between the bipolar and the schizophrenic was learned in my psych rotation… Bipolar is a mood disorder classification(like yhu don’t know that one) Depression is depression, mania is mania.  Really reallyhappy…really really said – DUH…right? Scizophrenia is a thought disorder.   My schz pt scored higher on the Beck depression score than I did. No depressive symtpoms noted with the exception of the flat affect and lethargic gait, most likely due to meds.  However, when asked to write a letter to his mom, he wrote the whole letter and then starting back from the beginning – added the punctuation!  THOOUGHT Disorder. Bipolar – as I am sure you are aware – can have psychotic features, and especially drug induced which is very commen in non compliant pts who self medicate. My mother too, was diagnosed scz in the 60’s when psychiatric research was still so young….but as i look back now, and replay the pattern of her life.  She was Bipolar with drug indced psychosis, noncompliant, self medicater. Just a thought. Elaine A perfect illustration between the bipolar and the schizophrenic was learned in my psych rotation… Bipolar – as I am sure you are aware – can have psychotic features, and especially drug induced which is very commen in non compliant pts who self medicate.

I think that may be the case, but he doesn’t self medicate anymore.  I think he just got fried as a guinea pig in the institutions.  He was completely at their mercy.  All I remember is when he got out… in a moment of clarity, he remarked "I have walked through hell." I don’t know if he is bipolar and severely burned from treatment, or a true sz. May none of us know the hell he saw. He went to NY and lived the streets for three years after that.  He went to California.  When he finally returned to Miami he was so far gone. Those moments of clarity are fewer than ever.  I think part of the delusions are armor for protection.  I will never know. My mother too, was diagnosed scz in the 60’s when psychiatric research was still so young….but as i look back now, and replay the pattern of her life.  She was Bipolar with drug indced psychosis, noncompliant, self medicater.

In the early days he would use alcohol but that ended after his hospitalizations to the best of my knowledge. Just a thought.

Thanks for your input Elaine. Julie —

Response:

My father is a diagnosed schizophrenic.  Interesting.  (I mentioned my father to my pdoc.  He doesn’t think I’m sz, but he has me on Risperdal, which is a typical sz med.)

My father is also a dx’d schizophrenic, although my doc believes that he is BP since my sister and I are BP.  I understand alot of people are misdiagnosed.  I must say that my father was not misdiagnosed.  He is a true schizophrenic.   This might explain the way I feel so sensitized to stimuli all around me. Hmmmmmmmmmm. Julie —

Response:

A perfect illustration between the bipolar and the schizophrenic was learned in my psych rotation… Bipolar is a mood disorder classification(like yhu don’t know that one) Depression is depression, mania is mania.  Really reallyhappy…really really said – DUH…right? Scizophrenia is a thought disorder.   My schz pt scored higher on the Beck depression score than I did. No depressive symtpoms noted with the exception of the flat affect and lethargic gait, most likely due to meds.  However, when asked to write a letter to his mom, he wrote the whole letter and then starting back from the beginning – added the punctuation!  THOOUGHT Disorder. Bipolar – as I am sure you are aware – can have psychotic features, and especially drug induced which is very commen in non compliant pts who self medicate. My mother too, was diagnosed scz in the 60’s when psychiatric research was still so young….but as i look back now, and replay the pattern of her life.  She was Bipolar with drug indced psychosis, noncompliant, self medicater. Just a thought. Elaine

Response:

<Posted and Mailed

                                                     <Snipped – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Many (most?) people just plain don’t care how much their actions may annoy others! My current Major Objection is the fact that I live in a low income housing project where it must the requirement for every vehicle to be equipped with kilowatt subwuffers continually blasting out rap at top volume. Even in my cave barricaded against all types of sounds, I am immersed, assaulted, awakened, and auditorily raped. This goes on for hours on end. At times I think I need to scream! I would — if I thought it would do any good whatsoever. Perhaps some relief may occur when the temperature will get hot enough to turn on the swamp cooler.

                                                <snipped James

When the thumping bass of my neighbors stereo is louder in my appartment than my own TV….I seriously consider introducing my neighbor to an ancient chinese addage that goes "please don’t hit my fist with your face."  Then add to that "rap" sh*t, the sounds of car alarm systems, screaming at 2am "THE VIPER IS ARMED". I hear what you are saying James. Ralph

Response:

I am in psych graduate school, and in one class we had a guest lecturer from the Health Science Center here in Denver.  He talked about experiments which they have done upon schizophrenics (sz) in which they expose the sz to repeated clicks next to their ears.  Normal controls eventually habituate to the sound, i.e. eventually their brains don’t even register the sound any more and it becomes background noise.  In contrast, sz never habituate, and the evoked potentials in their brains are just as "startled" looking after 15 minutes of continuous ear clicks.  So the poor sz is never able to tune the sound out. They have explored this finding and found that relatives of sz also share this phenomena — they don’t shut out the sound either — but somehow these healthier relatives are able to "multitask" and follow that sound as well as other stimuli.

My father is a diagnosed schizophrenic.  Interesting.  (I mentioned my father to my pdoc.  He doesn’t think I’m sz, but he has me on Risperdal, which is a typical sz med.) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -In addition there was evidence that within the family that the sz have a smaller brain region (I believe it was hippocampus but don’t quote me) than their relatives who were able to multitask.  So, in a bizarre way, conceivably this ability to handle multiple stimuli at once is an evolutionary advantage for most relatives in sz families, except for the unfortunates who have the disorder or a damaged hippocampus.  If you have a half-pint screening device and the ability to hear all of the radio stations at once that inability to hunker down and shut out all of the competing stimuli drives you crazy. -Gandalf There is a silence where hath been no sound There is a silence where no sound may be In the cold grave, under the deep deep sea. Thomas Hood (1799-1845)

bw

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<Posted and Mailed – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – After I talked with my pdoc yesterday, I realized what my problem must be. It’s not a complete breakthru, I must have known it before.  A real breakthru would be to overcome these — intrusions. Intrusions. When people in the next cubicle talk loudly and laugh loudly and I can hear them over my earplugs and headphone music, they are intrusive. When I have to take a big whiff of somebody else’s microwave meal, although my cubicle is not very close to the microwave, it is intrusive. When I am in my house , with the windows shut, and I have to hear outside noises (dogs, cars, lawn mowers & blowers, etc.), they are intrusive. When I am trying to concentrate in a class or meeting, and people tap their pencils or play drums on the tables, or shuffle their feet or bounce their legs, or other audible and visible distractions, they are intrusive. I can think of many other examples of how people can be intrusive, even if they don’t mean to be (yeah, right!)  But that’s my problem.

Many (most?) people just plain don’t care how much their actions may annoy others! My current Major Objection is the fact that I live in a low income housing project where it must the requirement for every vehicle to be equipped with kilowatt subwuffers continually blasting out rap at top volume. Even in my cave barricaded against all types of sounds, I am immersed, assaulted, awakened, and auditorily raped. This goes on for hours on end. At times I think I need to scream! I would — if I thought it would do any good whatsoever. Perhaps some relief may occur when the temperature will get hot enough to turn on the swamp cooler. I thought about this ever since I told my pdoc about the Poe "The Fall of the House of Usher", where the man would be tormented by sounds and smells.  Could that be me?  (Who’d ever think a Poe tale to be therapeutic?  :)

I am even tormented by people grilling a steak a block away. I immediately feel like making new friends. Interests (as I posted) — I have several.  There are many things I want to do.  But people with their intrusions get in the way. Neurontin — I just started.  Hope it works.  (My lithium level was too low, but I had too many side effects.)  Zoloft and Risperdal — they continue.

If you are sensitive to Neurontin’s antidepressive effects, you may need to reduce or even totally eliminate Zoloft to prevent (hypo)mania from being induced. Be warned and be very careful how you take Neurontin. But whatever the meds, I have to somehow deal with the intrusion factor.

Short of a prefrontal lobotomy — I don’t know what to do either. I certainly wish I could turn my sensitivity setting down a bunch!!! Maybe this is a social phobia issue?  But I tried the social phob. NG before. Nobody would answer what I had to say.  (Too phobic, I guess.  <g ) Hope you-all answer.  Thanks. bw PS  The internet at work is down, so I’m going in late;  I am typing this from the public library.  (Which isn’t easy for me, with all the people here. Maybe I’m putting my nervous energy toward this message?)  So you can see that either this issue is important to me, or I’m an NG addict or something …

I don’t mind admitting that I’m a Net addict. I believe that some addictions are worth having. James

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After I talked with my pdoc yesterday, I realized what my problem must be. It’s not a complete breakthru, I must have known it before.  A real breakthru would be to over come these — intrusions.

<snipped To me, the worst is the thwump-thwump-thwump of a basketball. On a good day I can drown it out making my own noise inside but on a bad day I’m in bed in a fetal position with hands over my head sobbing. All those noises feel like physical assaults, not just sound. My pdoc says SSRIs help this problem but we haven’t been able to find one that doesn’t give me a rare side-effect — a staticky noise in my brain, like electricity going off in there. Makes taking all the other noises even harder. So maybe my pdoc isn’t right about this one. brownee

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I can usually handle the music at loud parties in the nieghbor hood – it is the screaming OVER the music that I just go ballistic over. And what about people you ride in the car with who take 10 minutes to find the perfect station, turn up the volumne and then start a conversation? Elaine

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I am in psych graduate school, and in one class we had a guest lecturer from the Health Science Center here in Denver.  He talked about experiments which they have done upon schizophrenics (sz) in which they expose the sz to repeated clicks next to their ears.  Normal controls eventually habituate to the sound, i.e. eventually their brains don’t even register the sound any more and it becomes background noise.  In contrast, sz never habituate, and the evoked potentials in their brains are just as "startled" looking after 15 minutes of continuous ear clicks.  So the poor sz is never able to tune the sound out. They have explored this finding and found that relatives of sz also share this phenomena — they don’t shut out the sound either — but somehow these healthier relatives are able to "multitask" and follow that sound as well as other stimuli.  In addition there was evidence that within the family that the sz have a smaller brain region (I believe it was hippocampus but don’t quote me) than their relatives who were able to multitask.  So, in a bizarre way, conceivably this ability to handle multiple stimuli at once is an evolutionary advantage for most relatives in sz families, except for the unfortunates who have the disorder or a damaged hippocampus.  If you have a half-pint screening device and the ability to hear all of the radio stations at once that inability to hunker down and shut out all of the competing stimuli drives you crazy. -Gandalf There is a silence where hath been no sound There is a silence where no sound may be In the cold grave, under the deep deep sea. Thomas Hood (1799-1845)

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – After I talked with my pdoc yesterday, I realized what my problem must be. It’s not a complete breakthru, I must have known it before.  A real breakthru would be to over come these — intrusions. Intrusions. When people in the next cubicle talk loudly and laugh loudly and I can hear them over my earplugs and headphone music, they are intrusive. When I have to take a big whiff of somebody else’s microwave meal, although my cubicle is not very close to the microwave, it is intrusive. When I am in my house , with the windows shut, and I have to hear outside noises (dogs, cars, lawn mowers & blowers, etc), they are intrusive. When I am trying to concentrate in a class or meeting, and people tap their pencils or play drums on the tables, or shuffle their feet or bounce their legs, or other audible and visible distractions, they are intrusive.

Don’t forget the evil perfume addicts. I can think of many other examples of how people can be intrusive, even if they don’t mean to be (yeah, right!)  But that’s my problem. I thought about this ever since I told my pdoc about the Poe "The Fall of the House of Usher", where the man would be tormented by sounds and smells.  Could that be me?  (Who’d ever think a Poe tale to be therapeutic?  :) Interests (as I posted) — I have several.  There are many things I want to do.  But people with their intrusions get in the way.

That is tough, I can relate.  I get overwhelmed by intrusions alot.  I need peace time.  Time by myself to rejuvenate or I am lost. Neurontin — I just started.  Hope it works.  (My lithium level was to low, but I had too many side effects.)  Zoloft and Risperdal — they continue.

Neurontin here too.  Unfortunately it is a new drug for me so no advice here.  I hope it helps, especially with fewer side effects! But whatever the meds, I have to somehow deal with the intrusion factor. Maybe this is a social phobia issue?  But I tried the social phob. NG before. Nobody would answer what I had to say.  (Too phobic, I guess.  <g ) Hope you-all answer.  Thanks. bw PS  The internet at work is down, so I’m going in late;  I am typing this from the public library.  (Which isn’t easy for me, with all the people here.  Maybe I’m putting my nervous energy toward this message?)  So you can see that either this issue is important to me, or I’m an NG addict or something

Ditto… it is my equivalent to an interactive soap opera.   Normally I don’t respond to this many posts, but I have more free time and the Neurontin is making me happy! Good Luck! Julie —

Response:

After I talked with my pdoc yesterday, I realized what my problem must be. It’s not a complete breakthru, I must have known it before.  A real breakthru would be to over come these — intrusions. Intrusions. When people in the next cubicle talk loudly and laugh loudly and I can hear them over my earplugs and headphone music, they are intrusive. When I have to take a big whiff of somebody else’s microwave meal, although my cubicle is not very close to the microwave, it is intrusive. When I am in my house , with the windows shut, and I have to hear outside noises (dogs, cars, lawn mowers & blowers, etc), they are intrusive. When I am trying to concentrate in a class or meeting, and people tap their pencils or play drums on the tables, or shuffle their feet or bounce their legs, or other audible and visible distractions, they are intrusive. I can think of many other examples of how people can be intrusive, even if they don’t mean to be (yeah, right!)  But that’s my problem. I thought about this ever since I told my pdoc about the Poe "The Fall of the House of Usher", where the man would be tormented by sounds and smells.  Could that be me?  (Who’d ever think a Poe tale to be therapeutic?  :) Interests (as I posted) — I have several.  There are many things I want to do.  But people with their intrusions get in the way. Neurontin — I just started.  Hope it works.  (My lithium level was to low, but I had too many side effects.)  Zoloft and Risperdal — they continue. But whatever the meds, I have to somehow deal with the intrusion factor. Maybe this is a social phobia issue?  But I tried the social phob. NG before. Nobody would answer what I had to say.  (Too phobic, I guess.  <g ) Hope you-all answer.  Thanks. bw PS  The internet at work is down, so I’m going in late;  I am typing this from the public library.  (Which isn’t easy for me, with all the people here.  Maybe I’m putting my nervous energy toward this message?)  So you can see that either this issue is important to me, or I’m an NG addict or something …

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Question:

Well excuseeee me for having a fucking rotten life.

Aw Lee…..you ain’t alone!  If you don’t like them, don’t read them.

The wisest philosophy – seems a bit too complex for some. This is a support group for gods sake.  WE ARE TRYING TO FEEL NORMAL!!!

YEAH YEAH!!!  Well, as best we can! Lee ::kicks the damn computer::

Ooooo..don’t do THAT…we might lose ya for another week!  :) Gwen

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anyone else have a web tv . other than this group what do you look at anne in sf

Hi Anne, You might want to go into TALK City, there are alot of support chat groups and other topics. But watch out there are some chat rooms that you really don’t want to venture into. John

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reading all these messages is depressing.  I here a lot of pain and grief

and I hope there’s more people out there who are actually feeling

normal. Well excuseeee me for having a fucking rotten life.  If you don’t like them, don’t read them.  This is a support group for gods sake.  WE ARE TRYING TO FEEL NORMAL!!! Lee ::kicks the damn computer:: "Life sucks and then you die" but in the mean time, "shit happens" so "deal with it" and "go with the flow" because "life is too important to be taken seriously".

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I’m 19 years old and found myself the other day talking to a psychiatrist. The next thing I know, I’m popping in Zoloft pills.

What was your diagnosis to be put on Zoloft?     The very next day, walking to class, I felt so weird.  My hands were more     ultra clammy, my feet were clammy, my pits were sweating, and I     didn’t have a nauseaous attack luckily, but I had a nausea sensation all that    morning just enough to tick me off.

Sounds like normal side effects when starting an SRI, tho normal seems an odd word to use in this case. mmmm.  reading all these messages is depressing.  I here a lot of pain and grief and I hope there’s more people out there who are actually feeling normal.

I see many positive posts here.  Hope you are seeing those as well. How long are the Zoloft side effects suppose to remain?  I feel like I’m wired up, but tired.

Typically….2 – 6 weeks, but they should lessen dramatically in 2 if the med is going to work for you.  There is no one answer for every person.  Do talk to your doc if you need some reassurance or something to help with the increased anxiety Zoloft sometimes causes in the beginning. Gwen

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anyone else have a web tv . other than this group what do you look at anne in sf

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im using my real name now , i dont know why lady told me to use coded name sfannie

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this is anne . i know i have the web and  am relitavely new. where do other people go to check about  anxiety .  please give  on line address in blue. i dont know if you know what i mean by blue but that means i can click it on without having to type an address . i have a hard time getting around  on line  thanks

My web page is listed below, and might be "in blue" to you… I guess it depends on your mail reader and its set-up.  In any case, I have a references page that lists some other web pages I have found useful, and books, etc.  Let me know if you find it useful. Snit Snit’s Anxiety Suggestions: http://www.azstarnet.com/~snit/anxiety.html Ramblings about my journey toward recovery.  

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(lynn) writes: anyone else have a web tv . other than this group what do you look at anne in sf

No, I don’t. It sounds cool. i’m a tv addict, anne. So i watch lots of different shows. my favorites include: Ally McBeal, Seinfeld, Rosie O’Donnell, Oprah, NYPD Blue, Homicide: Life on the Streets, ER, Law and Order, Larry Sanders, Dennis Miller. I could go on but it’s embarrassing how addicted I am. These tv people are often characters who’s company I prefer to Real people. Not healthy, I know. But I rationalize it that it’s a healthier addiction than alcohol or cocaine. Maybe not. It keeps me isolated. Helps keep me isolated. But now I’m dating and getting out more. Tell us about Web tv. Is it really great? do you have picture in picture? WRITER/CATCH MY TRAIN OF THOUGHT "You can’t have everything. Where would you put it?" (Steven Wright)

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I’m 19 years old and found myself the other day talking to a psychiatrist. The next thing I know, I’m popping in Zoloft pills.      The very next day, walking to class, I felt so weird.  My hands were more      ultra clammy, my feet were clammy, my pits were sweating, and I      didn’t have a nauseaous attack luckily, but I had a nausea sensation all that     morning just enough to tick me off. mmmm.  reading all these messages is depressing.  I here a lot of pain and grief and I hope there’s more people out there who are actually feeling normal. How long are the Zoloft side effects suppose to remain?  I feel like I’m wired up, but tired.

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this is anne . i know i have the web and  am relitavely new. where do other people go to check about  anxiety .  please give  on line address in blue. i dont know if you know what i mean by blue but that means i can click it on without having to type an address . i have a hard time getting around  on line  thanks

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Question:

Ok, I have read all the literature I can find, and talked to my pharmacist and a doctor (not the psychiatrist who prescribed it because I know more about the drug than he does). All the "official" stuff tells me that serzone doesn’t affect sexual function. So why, since I have been on it, had by sex drive dropped off to next to nothing? And why is it more difficult for me to achieve orgasm. When I was on Zoloft, I had the same thing happen, but sexual disfunction is a side effect of Zoloft. Anyone have experiences similar to mine? (BTW, I have a different doctor prescribing my meds now). Thanks in advance, Ev emorgan <at slonet <dot org eem <at efn <dot org Replying to the header is futile. Junk e-mail will be illiminated. And for good measure: There is a $1000 US fee for unsolicited commercial e-mail to any of my aforementioned addresses. This is your only warning. Die NetScum! Die!

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[posted and emailed] Ok, I have read all the literature I can find, and talked to my pharmacist and a doctor (not the psychiatrist who prescribed it because I know more about the drug than he does). All the "official" stuff tells me that serzone doesn’t affect sexual function. So why, since I have been on it, had by sex drive dropped off to next to nothing? And why is it more difficult for me to achieve orgasm. When I was on Zoloft, I had the same thing happen, but sexual disfunction is a side effect of Zoloft. Anyone have experiences similar to mine?

yes, only "statistically" does serzone not affect sexual function. that means it wasnt likely.. ‘cept in your case… what about wellbutrin? Thomas A. Ott http://www.geocities.com/heartland/5294 "All Things Are Possible Except Skiing Through A Revolving Door…" [remove "nospam." from my sig to respond...]

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