Question:

   So guess what? I can’t stop coughing! I hack quite a bit during the day, but at night I just can’t get to sleep at a decent time. I’m too busy coughing! On top of the serevent 2pffs 2X/day, ditto with flovent250, I’m Snipped    Any suggestions on what I can do? I know taking that much ventolin on top of the serevent couldn’t be that great for me,are there any other ways

Sounds like when I had Sinusitus.  At first I thought that my asthma was just getting worse and out of control.  Went to the Dr.  Even though I was not having any head pain, he said it was sinusitus.  The reason was because I coughed up yellow in the mornings that turned to clearish as the day went on and I was dizzy when I got up.  The coughing was worse in the morning.  Took some antibitics (zithromax) and it cleared up fast!   Hope you find what the problem is.  If your asthma is like mine, it is hard to tell the asthma from a cold or infection.   Good luck, Lynn*E

Response:

   I would like to thank everybody that gave me advice. I will be making an appointment with my respiratory specialist tomorrow. Thanks to those of you who responded to me privately and on this ng, I will be armed with some good questions. Appreciatively, Tina in Montreal – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   My daughter just started grade 1 on monday and I find myself having to walk her to and from school (9 blocks each way) 4 times a day. I don’t have a car, and I don’t know any neighbours who go to the same school.   So guess what? I can’t stop coughing! I hack quite a bit during the day, but at night I just can’t get to sleep at a decent time. I’m too busy coughing! On top of the serevent 2pffs 2X/day, ditto with flovent250, I’m now having to take 4pffs 3-4x/day of my ventolin (I have the shakes like crazy). And even that seems to do little good.   Any suggestions on what I can do? I know taking that much ventolin on top of the serevent couldn’t be that great for me,are there any other ways to reduce the coughing, especially at night?   Thanks in advance for any info. Tina in Montreal

Response:

   I would like to thank everybody that gave me advice. I will be making an appointment with my respiratory specialist tomorrow. Thanks to those of you who responded to me privately and on this ng, I will be armed with some good questions.

        hope you will share what you learn…<s

Response:

hope you will share what you learn…<s

   Don’t worry. I have trouble keeping my mouth shut when I get helpful news (I hope?). But in this case I’ll let my fingers do the talking. Tina in Montreal

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Oh, yeah. I forgot to add (thanks to my distracting 3 yr old) that I am waking up very dizzy as well. It takes a while to get up because of it. Tina in Montreal   My daughter just started grade 1 on monday and I find myself having to walk her to and from school (9 blocks each way) 4 times a day. I don’t have a car, and I don’t know any neighbours who go to the same school.   So guess what? I can’t stop coughing! I hack quite a bit during the day, but at night I just can’t get to sleep at a decent time. I’m too busy coughing! On top of the serevent 2pffs 2X/day, ditto with flovent250, I’m now having to take 4pffs 3-4x/day of my ventolin (I have the shakes like crazy). And even that seems to do little good.   Any suggestions on what I can do? I know taking that much ventolin on top of the serevent couldn’t be that great for me,are there any other ways to reduce the coughing, especially at night? Tina in Montreal

You’re pretty well maxed out on your meds; Flovent 220, Serevent, and Ventolin. It sounds like all that exercise may be exacerbating your asthma. Have you contacted the school office about your problem? Isn’t there a school limousine for handicapped people or cases like yours? Could your daughter take her lunch to school to cut the trips down to 2/day. Some exercise is good for you. Some doctors might put you on a pulse dose of prednisone, but I try to avoid that. Other meds you could consider adding  are TheoDur (I take 200 mg x 2 ) and Singulair, the new antileukotriene pill. Have you been evaluated for Sinusitis or GERD (reflux); both of these conditions can worsen asthma and cause coughing. Ellis, not a doctor

Response:

  So guess what? I can’t stop coughing! I hack quite a bit during the day, but at night I just can’t get to sleep at a decent time. I’m too busy coughing! On top of the serevent 2pffs 2X/day, ditto with flovent250, I’m now having to take 4pffs 3-4x/day of my ventolin (I have the shakes like crazy). And even that seems to do little good.   Any suggestions on what I can do? I know taking that much ventolin on top of the serevent couldn’t be that great for me,are there any other ways to reduce the coughing, especially at night?

Make an appointment with your doctor ASAP.  Your asthma is out of control and you need to find out what the problem is and get it fixed. Hopefully, with the number of medications you are on, you are being treated by a specalist?

Response:

   My daughter just started grade 1 on monday and I find myself having to walk her to and from school (9 blocks each way) 4 times a day. I don’t have a car, and I don’t know any neighbours who go to the same school.    So guess what? I can’t stop coughing! I hack quite a bit during the day, but at night I just can’t get to sleep at a decent time. I’m too busy coughing! On top of the serevent 2pffs 2X/day, ditto with flovent250, I’m now having to take 4pffs 3-4x/day of my ventolin (I have the shakes like crazy). And even that seems to do little good.    Any suggestions on what I can do? I know taking that much ventolin on top of the serevent couldn’t be that great for me,are there any other ways to reduce the coughing, especially at night?    Thanks in advance for any info. Tina in Montreal

Response:

Oh, yeah. I forgot to add (thanks to my distracting 3 yr old) that I am waking up very dizzy as well. It takes a while to get up because of it.    Thanks again. Tina in Montreal – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   My daughter just started grade 1 on monday and I find myself having to walk her to and from school (9 blocks each way) 4 times a day. I don’t have a car, and I don’t know any neighbours who go to the same school.   So guess what? I can’t stop coughing! I hack quite a bit during the day, but at night I just can’t get to sleep at a decent time. I’m too busy coughing! On top of the serevent 2pffs 2X/day, ditto with flovent250, I’m now having to take 4pffs 3-4x/day of my ventolin (I have the shakes like crazy). And even that seems to do little good.   Any suggestions on what I can do? I know taking that much ventolin on top of the serevent couldn’t be that great for me,are there any other ways to reduce the coughing, especially at night?   Thanks in advance for any info. Tina in Montreal

Response:

Question:

While I readily confess to employing btb, nesting and using half round-trips, I have never done hidden city. I can see how this really upsets the airlines. You* have checked in A-(B)-C and then you disappear at B.

Are we talking about multiple-leg trips here, or true hidden stopovers such as, for instance, these UA DEN-FRA which actually involve a change of gauge at ORD? Effects: 1. Passenger count is wrong.

Not really.  They give you two boarding passes. If you didn’t board, you don’t enter the count.   So, it’s just like anyone that’s checked in but ends up not showing up or not showing up in time. 2. Agents have to page you (just listen to how many of these there are next time you travel)

When was the last time you saw anyone get paged? 3. Baggage manifest has to be checked, when it’s apparent you’re not coming.

No luggage matching in North America.  So I am sure they don’t care. Bottom line: it’s just the fare issue.

Response:

While I readily confess to employing btb, nesting and using half round-trips, I have never done hidden city. I can see how this really upsets the airlines. You* have checked in A-(B)-C and then you disappear at B. Are we talking about multiple-leg trips here, or true hidden stopovers such as, for instance, these UA DEN-FRA which actually involve a change of gauge at ORD?

Either, or the third case where it’s a through flight with a hub stopover (no plane change). Effects: 1. Passenger count is wrong. Not really.  They give you two boarding passes. If you didn’t board, you don’t enter the count.   So, it’s just like anyone that’s checked in but ends up not showing up or not showing up in time.

True. I had the through flight scenario in mind, but omitted to say so. 2. Agents have to page you (just listen to how many of these there are next time you travel) When was the last time you saw anyone get paged?

August 1, 2000. Maybe you just tune out those announcements. I hear them all the time. 3. Baggage manifest has to be checked, when it’s apparent you’re not coming. No luggage matching in North America.  So I am sure they don’t care.

Maybe no matching in the US, although I’m not sure of that. Baggage is certainly matched Canada-US transborder. Bottom line: it’s just the fare issue.

We’ll agree to differ. B.

Response:

  I don’t see how hidden city tickets generally are very useful. Once you miss the second flight (assuming two each way), return reservations are cancelled; also you can’t have checked baggage as the airline would check luggage to the ticketed destination.   So to benefit, the round trip fare A – B – C – B – A must be less than a one way A – B, and the passenger must not have checked baggage. How often does this occur? —

Response:

All the time for business travelers!!  I’m sure others have reaped a whole lot more savings than this, but last year, a co-worker needed a one way ticket to Cincinnati.  It was over $500.  A roundtrip on DL IAH-IND with a connection at CVG was $220.  This saved over $300. This works particularly well on last minute trips where the ultimate ticketed destination is a low fare compete route from the point of origin.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   I don’t see how hidden city tickets generally are very useful. Once you miss the second flight (assuming two each way), return reservations are cancelled; also you can’t have checked baggage as the airline would check luggage to the ticketed destination.   So to benefit, the round trip fare A – B – C – B – A must be less than a one way A – B, and the passenger must not have checked baggage. How often does this occur? —

Response:

 I don’t see how hidden city tickets generally are very useful. Once you miss the second flight (assuming two each way), return reservations are cancelled; also you can’t have checked baggage as the airline would check luggage to the ticketed destination.  So to benefit, the round trip fare A – B – C – B – A must be less than a one way A – B, and the passenger must not have checked baggage. How often does this occur? —

Quite often I’d say. One way fares on the ‘majors’ (like Delta who spawned this thread), are very expensive since they are all full fare (no discounts). I agree this ‘trick’ is of no use to the leisure traveller who wants to go A to B and come back again. But then they would probably never think of it, or else post to this ng asking if it can be done. B.

Response:

  I don’t see how hidden city tickets generally are very useful. Once you miss the second flight (assuming two each way), return reservations are cancelled; also you can’t have checked baggage as the airline would check luggage to the ticketed destination.   So to benefit, the round trip fare A – B – C – B – A must be less than a one way A – B, and the passenger must not have checked baggage. How often does this occur?

It happens.  An example, look at J2RTN fares from Canada to Germany and compare them with equivalent fares from the US: it’s roughly twice.  So, get a cheap B-A-B round trip.   Of course, if you are a real FF miles junkie, you might actually fly the whole thing, which might actually be legal.  But not necessarily convenient.   Or you might have a fairly convoluted travel pattern.  Which might actually require you to go to A right before your trip to C. As to luggage, often you don’t check anything.  Or if B happens to be an entry point, you get it to go through customs anyway.

Response:

All the time for business travelers!!  I’m sure others have reaped a whole lot more savings than this, but last year, a co-worker needed a one way ticket to Cincinnati.  It was over $500.  A roundtrip on DL IAH-IND with a connection at CVG was $220.  This saved over $300. This works particularly well on last minute trips where the ultimate ticketed destination is a low fare compete route from the point of origin.

And even better if said business travellers can bill the client for the full OW whack and pocket the difference. But that wouldn’t happen, would it ? B.

Response:

It is not always a certainty that the airlines will cancel your ongoing reservation if you don’t show up for a flight.  The airlines are pretty damn disorganized as it is, I’m sure you could easily persuade them to reinstate your record. In any case, as long as you check in for your first flight and receive a boarding pass for your second flight, then I doubt highly that you will find your following flights cancelled. I’ve done this before on Delta flying from STL-ATL.  The fare from STL-ATL is usually about a hundred dollars more than STL-MGM which connects in ATL anyway.  Just check in for the first flight, get boarding pass for second flight, throw away.  Then pay $19.99 to rent Budget car to drive to MGM and play golf on the way.  Fun. I have considered this for flights from STL-JFK.  The last minute fare on TWA is insane, around $1000.  However, you can buy STL-BWI with no advance for $300 that allows connecting in JFK.  Pretty crazy.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – All the time for business travelers!!  I’m sure others have reaped a whole lot more savings than this, but last year, a co-worker needed a one way ticket to Cincinnati.  It was over $500.  A roundtrip on DL IAH-IND with a connection at CVG was $220.  This saved over $300. This works particularly well on last minute trips where the ultimate ticketed destination is a low fare compete route from the point of origin. And even better if said business travellers can bill the client for the full OW whack and pocket the difference. But that wouldn’t happen, would it ? B.

Well, my said business travelers couldn’t do that because there’s no client to bill, not to mention the fact that they wouldn’t have a receipt for the higher fare

Response:

I have considered this for flights from STL-JFK.  The last minute fare on TWA is insane, around $1000.

No Herb. However, you can buy STL-BWI with no advance for $300 that allows connecting in JFK.  Pretty crazy.

The Herb effect. Bob C.

Response:

Correct me if I’m wrong, but the airlines are the ones that came up with this pricing structure in the first place, weren’t they?  As opposed as I am to the moral aspects of cheating, I don’t see this as cheating.  I maintain that I have the right to get off the plane anywhere it stops if I feel like it.  Getting back on is my option.

<snip funny rant Right you are Bill! I can’t think of any other transportation medium that uses this – I have taken the bus between Toronto and Detroit for months. If you want to get out at London Ontario, no problem. I’ve taken a cruise where my wife got too seasick to continue – she was able to get off at an intermediate stop, no problem. I can’t imagine a cab ride where you say to the cabbie "Stop I want to get out here", and he says "No we have to continue to the airport, and then I’ll bring you back here". I agree with all the posters who have said the airlines created this problem with their screwy load management pricing, and they should be forced to honour tickets that they’ve issued under these schemes. It may result in slightly higher fares, but at least I’d feel it was a ‘fair fare’. OtherKevin

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Correct me if I’m wrong, but the airlines are the ones that came up with this pricing structure in the first place, weren’t they?  As opposed as I am to the moral aspects of cheating, I don’t see this as cheating.  I maintain that I have the right to get off the plane anywhere it stops if I feel like it.  Getting back on is my option. <snip funny rant Right you are Bill! I can’t think of any other transportation medium that uses this – I have taken the bus between Toronto and Detroit for months. If you want to get out at London Ontario, no problem. I’ve taken a cruise where my wife got too seasick to continue – she was able to get off at an intermediate stop, no problem. I can’t imagine a cab ride where you say to the cabbie "Stop I want to get out here", and he says "No we have to continue to the airport, and then I’ll bring you back here".

How would your bus and cruise examples be cheating the provider out of a higher fare as is the case with hidden city ticketing? I agree with all the posters who have said the airlines created this problem with their screwy load management pricing, and they should be forced to honour tickets that they’ve issued under these schemes. It may result in slightly higher fares, but at least I’d feel it was a ‘fair fare’.

This has absolutely nothing to do with "load management pricing."  It’s all about low fare competition.  If there were no low fare carriers, there would be no need for hidden city ticketing.

Response:

FRA prices seem very high until well after Oktoberfest.

the problem though is Oktoberfest only happens in Munich.  Yea it happens to smaller degrees elsewhere but it is centered in Munich. (my liver is still hurting) Gerald Sylvester

Response:

Excellent essay as always, Bill. I think I see a flaw in your argument however. You assume the airlines set their fares in some kind of controlled, logical manner. I believe they actually use a ouija board and/or a dart-throwing chimpanzee. From time to time this procedure is circumvented by someone shouting ‘Ohmigawd, Herbie Air has lower fares form Stinksville to Megalopolis, we must match them at once’. (Of course, back in the Middle Ages there were no hidden cities because there were no hubs.) While I readily confess to employing btb, nesting and using half round-trips, I have never done hidden city. I can see how this really upsets the airlines. You* have checked in A-(B)-C and then you disappear at B. Effects: 1. Passenger count is wrong. 2. Agents have to page you (just listen to how many of these there are next time you travel) 3. Baggage manifest has to be checked, when it’s apparent you’re not coming. All of this requires totally unproductive effort on the part of the airline. And it’s not like there’s a surplus of gate agents looking for something to do. Upshot: Flight possibly delayed, inconveniencing (or worse) the other 100+ folks who unfortunately picked the same flight as you. The airlines may have created the scenario, but IMHO using hidden city is beyond the pale of ’savvy traveling’. Air travel may have evolved to resemble bus trips in many ways, but the rules *are* different. Since the judge says they can’t come after you for the money, FF miles seems to be the only lever they have. * generic ‘you’ Brian

Response:

Correct me if I’m wrong, but the airlines are the ones that came up with this pricing structure in the first place, weren’t they?  As opposed as I am to the moral aspects of cheating, I don’t see this as cheating.  I maintain that I have the right to get off the plane anywhere it stops if I feel like it.  Getting back on is my option.

I was looking at the UA web site for mid-October WAS to PAR service. The half-round-trip price is about $285 during that period.  Some of the routings had a connection at FRA.  Out of curiosity, I looked up the WAS to FRA price.  On the very same flights used for WAS-FRA-PAR, the lowest half-round-trip price was $518 if used only for WAS-FRA So I could "miss" the connection at FRA and save 45% on WAS-FRA if they didn’t catch me (which they would). If all I’d wanted was a one-way WAS-FRA, I could pay $2002 for a "legal" one-way ticket or 2*($285)=$570 and throw away three flight segments. FRA prices seem very high until well after Oktoberfest. Sounds like AA on connections through DFW vs travel ending at DFW. Bob C.

Response:

This was featured today as well on NPR evening news – how some of the bigs are trying to go after pax using hidden city tickets now, after previoulsy directing their efforts against TA’s selling these flights.  Their take was that the pax gonna pay one way or the other, if they can’t fight effectively by cancelling FF miles, adding $$ to the CC’s etc, they’ll end up just raising those tickets to make it unattractive.  They said that if hidden cities were made "legal" it would reduce revs by $6B a year, and the carriers aren’t just going to eat it. FH

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I ran across this while goofing off on CNN.com.  The court decision in favour of the traveler who DL felt owed $9000US for hidden city savings was interesting.  If it holds up, the airlines will have to change some things. http://www.cnn.com/2000/TRAVEL/VIEWS/elliott/08/23/index.html

Response:

They said that if hidden cities were made "legal" it would reduce revs by $6B a year, and the carriers aren’t just going to eat it.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but the airlines are the ones that came up with this pricing structure in the first place, weren’t they?  As opposed as I am to the moral aspects of cheating, I don’t see this as cheating.  I maintain that I have the right to get off the plane anywhere it stops if I feel like it.  Getting back on is my option.  I would agree that the airlines have the reciprical right to cancel the remainder of my trip (like my return).  What are they going to do, check my boarding pass as I get off in the "hidden" city and force me to go back to my seat? "And just where do you think you’re going?  Sorry, Mister Mattocks, but you ARE going to LAX today.  You can go hard or you can go easy, but you are going to LAX." "No, really, I just want to grab a quick bite to eat – I’ll come right back!" "We’ve heard that before.  Please sit down before we have to get ugly. We’ll bring you some cardboard to gnaw on." Yeah, that’s going to work.  I predict an increase in "passenger initiated evacuations" if they try.  What the heck, I’ve always wanted to try out one of those inflatable slides anyway. I have never actually done the "hidden city" thing, but then, I don’t pay for my plane tickets – my customers do.  If it came out of my pocket, I might do it myself. Next, they’ll be telling us that we mustn’t avail ourselves of discounted tickets by purchasing in advance, we must pay last minute full fare prices, or they may lose eleventy gazillion dollars per year.  Sorry, they make the rules, we dance.  If they left a loophole, them’s the breaks.  They can fix it, assuming that they still have employees who know how to write. These are the same guys who have no problem if I have to fly through three layovers when I could have had a non-stop, except the triple hop was cheaper.  They could have saved money by flying me straight through, and I would have been happier as well, but NOOOOO!  These are the same guys who have been euphemistically telling the nation with a straight face that putting stranded airline passengers on a bus or train to their destination (and not refunding a penny, natch) is just fine, they are honoring their commitment, because the airlines are now a "complete travel solution."  Bite me. Recently on a trip to California, the local Best Buy chain there offered a $400 discount on anything in the store if the purchaser would sign up for 4 years of MSN service at a certain rate.  They’ve been doing that promotion all over the US.  The thing is, in California there is some obscure little law that allows consumers to cancel such contracts without recourse within a certain period of time, or something like that – I read it in the paper, but didn’t get the whole story.  So, for a couple of days, people were lining up to get their "free" TV’s and air conditioners, signing up for MSN, and then going home and cancelling the contract.  Best Buy dumped that promotion pronto, of course, but they did honor their mistake while it lasted. If the IRS in all their wisdom sees fit to grant tax-free status to people named Bob who are left-handed, and a few hundred million people petition the courts to change their name and start signing their new name funny, are they dishonest?  No, just confused and hard to call to supper. I can’t comprehend the whining attitude of the airlines in this respect. "Aw, you figured out a loophole in our freaky and confusing pricing scheme. You must be punished." A boot to the head for the dunderheads who thought up the idea of blaming the customer for working within their system to his or her own advantage. I just want to be sure I have this straight: Plane late?  Passengers to blame, they don’t show up on time, they board too slowly. Irate employees?  Passengers to blame, they have bad attitudes and they yell at innocent airline employees. Not enough planes?  Passengers to blame, they fly too much. Prices too high?  Passengers to blame, they look for discounts and ways to legally save money. Good idea, airlines.  Poke the bear with a stick.  Now that the entire nation hates you and holds you responsible for the state of commercial airline travel in the US, you should tell us it is all our fault, and then take us to court or send us $9,000 bills for exploiting your own screwy pricing structures.  Why don’t you just hang signs out in the airports that say "Passengers suck, and everything is your own damned fault!"  We peasants like that.  Don’t worry, we’ll eat cake if we have no bread. Yes, "hidden city" ticketing will drive the airlines out of business…and it is about time. Best Regards, Bill Mattocks

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Question:

YOU SAID YOU WAS LEAVIN’ !!!!  doncha hate when people come to yer house, advertise they’re leavin, get in tha dang car… then come back’n stay awhile? JUST when ya get nekkid and start eatin a nuked artichoke, feelin’ like you can breathe agin? ok.. i’m gunna call ya Uncle Buck from this day forward .Yoga helps a lot, and specially CBT. CBT ain’t cognitive behavioral therapy where i come from, Uncle Buck.. and i gotchur CBT !!!! Sagan, and hypochondriac. (no, english is not my mother tongue

(cept when it’s convenient)  and by tha way.. WHO ASKED YA?

Response:

I have been on Atenolol 25mg which is a beta blocker and about the lowest dose around, in fact my doctor told me that it has only been around 2 or 3 years.  I’ve been taking it for about a year now and I have to say I feel a lot more rested and together than when I was on no medication at all. Panic Attacks are rare now, although I still get bouts of anxiety but I guess that everyone.  One thing though, coming off it is annoying because of the shakes but because of my low doasge my doctor said it wouldn’t neccesarily be that much of a problem. Daniko.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Tom I take Xanax and a beta blocker, but I have a pacemaker so the beta blocker is to lower the heart rate when the pacer isn’t doin it’s job…sometimes it fires off to a rate of nearly 200bpm. If you get on a beta blocker, take it at night because it tends to make you tired and feel crappy (due to the lowering of the heart rate). — If you sing a country song backwards, you get your job and your wife back. Hi, Although I don’t have frequent panic attacks, my heart races in doctor office, and blood pessure soars.  I’ve been on 20 mg/day of an ACE inhibitor, and BP varies from 110/70 in summer to 135/85 in winter as measured by home monitor (cause unknown).  This is an established cycle over past three years. I almost considered asking to reduce the med, since I got some dizziness when standing when BPs were 105/65 every summer. Most problematic, not only do I have this anxiety in MDs office, but my HR will go up, at times, when I strap on my home BP monitor. FWIW, I believe I don’t have the most common form of hypertension, but, rather, anxiety about HAVING high blood pressure, as well as some anxiety when it comes to health issues. I’m thinking it’s time for a beta blocker, and my doc would likely agree. But I’m athletic, and resting heart rate most of the time is 50 BPM.  I’d hate to suffer side effects (ED, loss of ability to do strenuous exercise) to control the fight-or-flight response. Incidentally, my resting heart rate has recently climbed (15 BPM), as it does when I exercise too much and don’t eat enough.  One month of no exercise and more food usually get’s me back to 100%. As for the anxiety, I’m looking for comments regarding Xanax, Valium, and/or beta blockers, as well as yoga, biofeedback etc.  I’m type A personality, but never get this adrenaline rush unless it’s time to measure BP, or going on a first date Thanks, flighty-mikey

Response:

Although I don’t have frequent panic attacks, my heart races in doctor office, and blood pessure soars. Most problematic, not only do I have this anxiety in MDs office, but my HR will go up, at times, when I strap on my home BP monitor. FWIW, I believe I don’t have the most common form of hypertension, but, rather, anxiety about HAVING high blood pressure, as well as some anxiety when it comes to health issues.

Hi Tom. This sounds very familiar to me. I have exactly the same problem/fear though I had more frequent attacks (one every three days) until I started to take xanax and zoloft. I feel quite well now. I’ve found that my dosage is fine, or perhaps in the borderline, at 3.5mg of Xanax XR (1.5-0.5-1.5) and 75mg of Zoloft. Sometimes I take 0.5mg of Ativan if I feel a bit anxious or Xanax IR for special occasions My resting HR is among 60 and 65 bpm, and during a Holter test, it decreased to 40 being asleep, which you know is normal, and increased to 140!!! in the afternoon because of my fear while thinking about the possible results of the test. I also had white coat HBP (140-155 sistolic and 90-95 diastolic), while my normal BP (during a 24h. monitoring was 137-87) and I was VERY anxious that whole day, I didn’t sleep at all :/ (I was not taking benzos). The lowest BP I’ve seen in body was 130/80, one night, after the doc at the ER told me I was not dying (the first time I had a panic attack), I felt so well and happy that didn’t notice they were measuring my BP Yoga helps a lot, and specially CBT. Change your point of view, stop thinking about your health/yourself. This was MHO. Good luck. Sagan, and hypochondriac. (no, english is not my mother tongue

Response:

Gary and others, Thank you for the replies.  You have eased my anxiety, and all have diagnosed me quite accurately….you’re hired.  Imagine being anxious because BP is not 120/80, or because sleep is not perfect, or because resting heart rate increases from 50 to 65 BPM.  That’s me. I suspect all of my recent ailments are related to doing too much (running, volleyball, weights), without paying enough attention to food and water intake, and paying too much attention to heart rate and blood pressure.  Interestingly, overtraining symptoms (OK, from what I’ve read in the medical literature) include anxiety, moodiness, and insomnia.  My sleep in near normal now that I’ve backed off the excessive/obsessive exercise! I have an excellent benefit plan and will see someone in the employee assistance program.  If medication is the answer, I will consider it. Thanks again for the replies.  I will stay tuned here to keep tabs on all the latest and greatest. Tom – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Tom, it just occured to me that I left out one thing I wanted to tell you. The current zeitgeist in medicine is to treat anxiety with SSRI antidepressants, such as Paxil, Effexor etc, or tricyclic antidepressants, such as desipramine or nortryptiline..  In that you referenced some episodes of what are likely postural hypotension (dizziness when standing), a tricyclic antidepressant (TCA) would not be a particularly good choice for you – these drugs have a ‘moderate’ affinity for alpha 1 adrenergic receptor blockade, which is the primary reason why postural hypotension is such a common side effect with these agents.  Celexa (an SSRI) is my personal favorite because it is the most selective agent for the serotonin receptor – ten times moreso than Paxil, despite the fact that Paxil is clearly the most potent inhibitor of serotonin reuptake.  Potency is mainly a good predictor of adverse events and drug interactions, whereas selectivity will be a better predictor of clinical results.  In the slang of the psychiatry industry, Celexa (or lexapro if you like) is more "clean". Having taken many of these drugs myself, I’ve also found that Celexa is the most anxiolytic of them that I’ve tried.  Another thing I wanted to mention but forgot – I’ve been taking Xanax for 13 years now, and the dose is still the same, and it works just fine every single day. –Gary

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Although I don’t have frequent panic attacks, my heart races in doctor office, and blood pessure soars. Most problematic, not only do I have this anxiety in MDs office, but my HR will go up, at times, when I strap on my home BP monitor. FWIW, I believe I don’t have the most common form of hypertension, but, rather, anxiety about HAVING high blood pressure, as well as some anxiety when it comes to health issues. Hi Tom. This sounds very familiar to me. I have exactly the same problem/fear though I had more frequent attacks (one every three days) until I started to take xanax and zoloft. I feel quite well now. I’ve found that my dosage is fine, or perhaps in the borderline, at 3.5mg of Xanax XR (1.5-0.5-1.5) and 75mg of Zoloft. Sometimes I take 0.5mg of Ativan if I feel a bit anxious or Xanax IR for special occasions My resting HR is among 60 and 65 bpm, and during a Holter test, it decreased to 40 being asleep, which you know is normal, and increased to 140!!! in the afternoon because of my fear while thinking about the possible results of the test. I also had white coat HBP (140-155 sistolic and 90-95 diastolic), while my normal BP (during a 24h. monitoring was 137-87) and I was VERY anxious that whole day, I didn’t sleep at all :/ (I was not taking benzos). The lowest BP I’ve seen in body was 130/80, one night, after the doc at the ER told me I was not dying (the first time I had a panic attack), I felt so well and happy that didn’t notice they were measuring my BP Yoga helps a lot, and specially CBT. Change your point of view, stop thinking about your health/yourself.

Now that is good advice Sagan, and is also very familiar. Now where have I heard that before?! ;o)

Response:

Tom, it just occured to me that I left out one thing I wanted to tell you. The current zeitgeist in medicine is to treat anxiety with SSRI antidepressants, such as Paxil, Effexor etc, or tricyclic antidepressants, such as desipramine or nortryptiline..  In that you referenced some episodes of what are likely postural hypotension (dizziness when standing), a tricyclic antidepressant (TCA) would not be a particularly good choice for you – these drugs have a ‘moderate’ affinity for alpha 1 adrenergic receptor blockade, which is the primary reason why postural hypotension is such a common side effect with these agents.  Celexa (an SSRI) is my personal favorite because it is the most selective agent for the serotonin receptor – ten times moreso than Paxil, despite the fact that Paxil is clearly the most potent inhibitor of serotonin reuptake.  Potency is mainly a good predictor of adverse events and drug interactions, whereas selectivity will be a better predictor of clinical results.  In the slang of the psychiatry industry, Celexa (or lexapro if you like) is more "clean". Having taken many of these drugs myself, I’ve also found that Celexa is the most anxiolytic of them that I’ve tried.  Another thing I wanted to mention but forgot – I’ve been taking Xanax for 13 years now, and the dose is still the same, and it works just fine every single day. –Gary

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Many physicians are even ill-informed on the full depth and breadth of the subject of benzodiazepines.  When *taken for an indicated condition in the amount prescribed* benzodiazepines RARELY show evidence of tolerance or tachyphylaxis (needing to take more of the drug to get the same result). Over about 30 days, and often less, they DO lose their ability to sedate generally, so are not an especially good choice for sleep medicines in the long term – for most people.  I work with hundreds of MD’s and can absolutely assure you that a blood pressure of 135/85 is something that they would be UTTERLY unconcerned with.  The American Cardiology Association says that ideally one should have the diastolic (bottom number) pressure at 85 or less, so I’d keep an eye on the sodium intake. IF your pressure were to rise further, particularly the diastolic part, the first thing they’d likely want to do would be to add a mild diuretic to your ace-inhibitor, usually hydrochlorothiazide (HCTZ) As an athlete with a low resting heart rate and a BP like that, you would likely be unremarkable to any cardiologist, and I’ve worked in some pretty fancy shmanzy places where virtually everything was reacted to and treated aggressively.  The point:  don’t worry so much.  If ya can’t stop worrying, get some Xanax or some anxiolytic drug from your doctor – he should be far more interested in that problem than in your enviable pulse and blood pressure.  Kudos to you for exercising, it does keep anxiety from getting totally out of hand for a lot of people. I’ll even go so far as to say that if your physician actually agreed to give you a beta blocker with numbers like that (in that the drug isn’t indicated at all), I’d fire his ass.  It is clinically dangerous to administer any amount of beta blockade to someone with a resting heart rate of 50. Kindest Regards, Gary You will probably get plenty of "yes" votes for taking Xanax. I’ve heard that the effect lessens if taken regularly. In my opinion, a person with a resting heart rate that hovers in the 50’s ought not to be messing with beta blockers. You may be right, but I don’t think many knowledgible MDs would be unconcerned with a BP of 135/85. Also, as it appears you are mildly over-concerned about the "numbers" that indicate "good health", be aware that beta blockers can easily cause a rise in serum cholesterol levels. That’s what I’ve heard.  I’ll pass thanks. Exercising too much and not eating enough do not sound like difficult I have no one to blame but myself.  Funny how all of my sedentary friends and relatives all feel dandy 24/7.  My New Years resolution on Nov 1: exercise less eat more work less vacation more…. Thanks for the input. Mike Hi, Although I don’t have frequent panic attacks, my heart races in doctor office, and blood pessure soars.  I’ve been on 20 mg/day of an ACE inhibitor, and BP varies from 110/70 in summer to 135/85 in winter as measured by home monitor (cause unknown).  This is an established cycle over past three years. I almost considered asking to reduce the med, since I got some dizziness when standing when BPs were 105/65 every summer. Most problematic, not only do I have this anxiety in MDs office, but my HR will go up, at times, when I strap on my home BP monitor. FWIW, I believe I don’t have the most common form of hypertension, but, rather, anxiety about HAVING high blood pressure, as well as some anxiety when it comes to health issues. I’m thinking it’s time for a beta blocker, and my doc would likely agree. But I’m athletic, and resting heart rate most of the time is 50 BPM.  I’d hate to suffer side effects (ED, loss of ability to do strenuous exercise) to control the fight-or-flight response. Incidentally, my resting heart rate has recently climbed (15 BPM), as it does when I exercise too much and don’t eat enough.  One month of no exercise and more food usually get’s me back to 100%. As for the anxiety, I’m looking for comments regarding Xanax, Valium, and/or beta blockers, as well as yoga, biofeedback etc.  I’m type A personality, but never get this adrenaline rush unless it’s time to measure BP, or going on a first date Thanks, flighty-mikey

Response:

You will probably get plenty of "yes" votes for taking Xanax.   I’ve heard that the effect lessens if taken regularly.

You listened to the wrong people. As a rule no *tolerance* occurs with anxiety sufferers, it’s really exceedingly rare. In my opinion, a person with a resting heart rate that hovers in the 50’s ought not to be messing with beta blockers.  

I certainly agree. You may be right, but I don’t think many knowledgible MDs would be unconcerned with a BP of 135/85.

Actually this is well within the normal range, no reason to worry. Philip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, Although I don’t have frequent panic attacks, my heart races in doctor office, and blood pessure soars.  I’ve been on 20 mg/day of an ACE inhibitor, and BP varies from 110/70 in summer to 135/85 in winter as measured by home monitor (cause unknown).  This is an established cycle over past three years. I almost considered asking to reduce the med, since I got some dizziness when standing when BPs were 105/65 every summer. Most problematic, not only do I have this anxiety in MDs office, but my HR will go up, at times, when I strap on my home BP monitor. FWIW, I believe I don’t have the most common form of hypertension, but, rather, anxiety about HAVING high blood pressure, as well as some anxiety when it comes to health issues. I’m thinking it’s time for a beta blocker, and my doc would likely agree. But I’m athletic, and resting heart rate most of the time is 50 BPM.  I’d hate to suffer side effects (ED, loss of ability to do strenuous exercise) to control the fight-or-flight response. Incidentally, my resting heart rate has recently climbed (15 BPM), as it does when I exercise too much and don’t eat enough.  One month of no exercise and more food usually get’s me back to 100%. As for the anxiety, I’m looking for comments regarding Xanax, Valium, and/or beta blockers, as well as yoga, biofeedback etc.  I’m type A personality, but never get this adrenaline rush unless it’s time to measure BP, or going on a first date Thanks, flighty-mikey

Response:

Many physicians are even ill-informed on the full depth and breadth of the subject of benzodiazepines.  When *taken for an indicated condition in the amount prescribed* benzodiazepines RARELY show evidence of tolerance or tachyphylaxis (needing to take more of the drug to get the same result). Over about 30 days, and often less, they DO lose their ability to sedate generally, so are not an especially good choice for sleep medicines in the long term – for most people.  I work with hundreds of MD’s and can absolutely assure you that a blood pressure of 135/85 is something that they would be UTTERLY unconcerned with.  The American Cardiology Association says that ideally one should have the diastolic (bottom number) pressure at 85 or less, so I’d keep an eye on the sodium intake.  IF your pressure were to rise further, particularly the diastolic part, the first thing they’d likely want to do would be to add a mild diuretic to your ace-inhibitor, usually hydrochlorothiazide (HCTZ) As an athlete with a low resting heart rate and a BP like that, you would likely be unremarkable to any cardiologist, and I’ve worked in some pretty fancy shmanzy places where virtually everything was reacted to and treated aggressively.  The point:  don’t worry so much.  If ya can’t stop worrying, get some Xanax or some anxiolytic drug from your doctor – he should be far more interested in that problem than in your enviable pulse and blood pressure.  Kudos to you for exercising, it does keep anxiety from getting totally out of hand for a lot of people. I’ll even go so far as to say that if your physician actually agreed to give you a beta blocker with numbers like that (in that the drug isn’t indicated at all), I’d fire his ass.  It is clinically dangerous to administer any amount of beta blockade to someone with a resting heart rate of 50. Kindest Regards, Gary

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You will probably get plenty of "yes" votes for taking Xanax. I’ve heard that the effect lessens if taken regularly. In my opinion, a person with a resting heart rate that hovers in the 50’s ought not to be messing with beta blockers. You may be right, but I don’t think many knowledgible MDs would be unconcerned with a BP of 135/85. Also, as it appears you are mildly over-concerned about the "numbers" that indicate "good health", be aware that beta blockers can easily cause a rise in serum cholesterol levels. That’s what I’ve heard.  I’ll pass thanks. Exercising too much and not eating enough do not sound like difficult I have no one to blame but myself.  Funny how all of my sedentary friends and relatives all feel dandy 24/7.  My New Years resolution on Nov 1: exercise less eat more work less vacation more…. Thanks for the input. Mike Hi, Although I don’t have frequent panic attacks, my heart races in doctor office, and blood pessure soars.  I’ve been on 20 mg/day of an ACE inhibitor, and BP varies from 110/70 in summer to 135/85 in winter as measured by home monitor (cause unknown).  This is an established cycle over past three years. I almost considered asking to reduce the med, since I got some dizziness when standing when BPs were 105/65 every summer. Most problematic, not only do I have this anxiety in MDs office, but my HR will go up, at times, when I strap on my home BP monitor. FWIW, I believe I don’t have the most common form of hypertension, but, rather, anxiety about HAVING high blood pressure, as well as some anxiety when it comes to health issues. I’m thinking it’s time for a beta blocker, and my doc would likely agree. But I’m athletic, and resting heart rate most of the time is 50 BPM.  I’d hate to suffer side effects (ED, loss of ability to do strenuous exercise) to control the fight-or-flight response. Incidentally, my resting heart rate has recently climbed (15 BPM), as it does when I exercise too much and don’t eat enough.  One month of no exercise and more food usually get’s me back to 100%. As for the anxiety, I’m looking for comments regarding Xanax, Valium, and/or beta blockers, as well as yoga, biofeedback etc.  I’m type A personality, but never get this adrenaline rush unless it’s time to measure BP, or going on a first date Thanks, flighty-mikey

Response:

You will probably get plenty of "yes" votes for taking Xanax.  

I’ve heard that the effect lessens if taken regularly. In my opinion, a person with a resting heart rate that hovers in the 50’s ought not to be messing with beta blockers.  

You may be right, but I don’t think many knowledgible MDs would be unconcerned with a BP of 135/85. Also, as it appears you are mildly over-concerned about the "numbers" that indicate "good health", be aware that beta blockers can easily cause a rise in serum cholesterol levels.

That’s what I’ve heard.  I’ll pass thanks. Exercising too much and not eating enough do not sound like difficult

I have no one to blame but myself.  Funny how all of my sedentary friends and relatives all feel dandy 24/7.  My New Years resolution on Nov 1: exercise less eat more work less vacation more…. Thanks for the input. Mike – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, Although I don’t have frequent panic attacks, my heart races in doctor office, and blood pessure soars.  I’ve been on 20 mg/day of an ACE inhibitor, and BP varies from 110/70 in summer to 135/85 in winter as measured by home monitor (cause unknown).  This is an established cycle over past three years. I almost considered asking to reduce the med, since I got some dizziness when standing when BPs were 105/65 every summer. Most problematic, not only do I have this anxiety in MDs office, but my HR will go up, at times, when I strap on my home BP monitor. FWIW, I believe I don’t have the most common form of hypertension, but, rather, anxiety about HAVING high blood pressure, as well as some anxiety when it comes to health issues. I’m thinking it’s time for a beta blocker, and my doc would likely agree. But I’m athletic, and resting heart rate most of the time is 50 BPM.  I’d hate to suffer side effects (ED, loss of ability to do strenuous exercise) to control the fight-or-flight response. Incidentally, my resting heart rate has recently climbed (15 BPM), as it does when I exercise too much and don’t eat enough.  One month of no exercise and more food usually get’s me back to 100%. As for the anxiety, I’m looking for comments regarding Xanax, Valium, and/or beta blockers, as well as yoga, biofeedback etc.  I’m type A personality, but never get this adrenaline rush unless it’s time to measure BP, or going on a first date Thanks, flighty-mikey

Response:

You will probably get plenty of "yes" votes for taking Xanax.

i dunno what the topic is, but xanax ALWAYS gets MY vote.. AYE! Exercising too much and not eating enough do not sound like difficult

not difficult at all.. come live at my house. BADDA BING ! ::tossin backah twinkie:: ~tanya

Response:

Tom I take Xanax and a beta blocker, but I have a pacemaker so the beta blocker is to lower the heart rate when the pacer isn’t doin it’s job…sometimes it fires off to a rate of nearly 200bpm. If you get on a beta blocker, take it at night because it tends to make you tired and feel crappy (due to the lowering of the heart rate). — If you sing a country song backwards, you get your job and your wife back.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, Although I don’t have frequent panic attacks, my heart races in doctor office, and blood pessure soars.  I’ve been on 20 mg/day of an ACE inhibitor, and BP varies from 110/70 in summer to 135/85 in winter as measured by home monitor (cause unknown).  This is an established cycle over past three years. I almost considered asking to reduce the med, since I got some dizziness when standing when BPs were 105/65 every summer. Most problematic, not only do I have this anxiety in MDs office, but my HR will go up, at times, when I strap on my home BP monitor. FWIW, I believe I don’t have the most common form of hypertension, but, rather, anxiety about HAVING high blood pressure, as well as some anxiety when it comes to health issues. I’m thinking it’s time for a beta blocker, and my doc would likely agree. But I’m athletic, and resting heart rate most of the time is 50 BPM.  I’d hate to suffer side effects (ED, loss of ability to do strenuous exercise) to control the fight-or-flight response. Incidentally, my resting heart rate has recently climbed (15 BPM), as it does when I exercise too much and don’t eat enough.  One month of no exercise and more food usually get’s me back to 100%. As for the anxiety, I’m looking for comments regarding Xanax, Valium, and/or beta blockers, as well as yoga, biofeedback etc.  I’m type A personality, but never get this adrenaline rush unless it’s time to measure BP, or going on a first date Thanks, flighty-mikey

Response:

Hi, Although I don’t have frequent panic attacks, my heart races in doctor office, and blood pessure soars.  I’ve been on 20 mg/day of an ACE inhibitor, and BP varies from 110/70 in summer to 135/85 in winter as measured by home monitor (cause unknown).  This is an established cycle over past three years. I almost considered asking to reduce the med, since I got some dizziness when standing when BPs were 105/65 every summer. Most problematic, not only do I have this anxiety in MDs office, but my HR will go up, at times, when I strap on my home BP monitor. FWIW, I believe I don’t have the most common form of hypertension, but, rather, anxiety about HAVING high blood pressure, as well as some anxiety when it comes to health issues. I’m thinking it’s time for a beta blocker, and my doc would likely agree. But I’m athletic, and resting heart rate most of the time is 50 BPM.  I’d hate to suffer side effects (ED, loss of ability to do strenuous exercise) to control the fight-or-flight response. Incidentally, my resting heart rate has recently climbed (15 BPM), as it does when I exercise too much and don’t eat enough.  One month of no exercise and more food usually get’s me back to 100%. As for the anxiety, I’m looking for comments regarding Xanax, Valium, and/or beta blockers, as well as yoga, biofeedback etc.  I’m type A personality, but never get this adrenaline rush unless it’s time to measure BP, or going on a first date Thanks, flighty-mikey

Response:

You will probably get plenty of "yes" votes for taking Xanax..  In my opinion, a person with a resting heart rate that hovers in the 50’s ought not to be messing with beta blockers.  Also, as it appears you are mildly over-concerned about the "numbers" that indicate "good health", be aware that beta blockers can easily cause a rise in serum cholesterol levels. Exercising too much and not eating enough do not sound like difficult

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, Although I don’t have frequent panic attacks, my heart races in doctor office, and blood pessure soars.  I’ve been on 20 mg/day of an ACE inhibitor, and BP varies from 110/70 in summer to 135/85 in winter as measured by home monitor (cause unknown).  This is an established cycle over past three years. I almost considered asking to reduce the med, since I got some dizziness when standing when BPs were 105/65 every summer. Most problematic, not only do I have this anxiety in MDs office, but my HR will go up, at times, when I strap on my home BP monitor. FWIW, I believe I don’t have the most common form of hypertension, but, rather, anxiety about HAVING high blood pressure, as well as some anxiety when it comes to health issues. I’m thinking it’s time for a beta blocker, and my doc would likely agree. But I’m athletic, and resting heart rate most of the time is 50 BPM.  I’d hate to suffer side effects (ED, loss of ability to do strenuous exercise) to control the fight-or-flight response. Incidentally, my resting heart rate has recently climbed (15 BPM), as it does when I exercise too much and don’t eat enough.  One month of no exercise and more food usually get’s me back to 100%. As for the anxiety, I’m looking for comments regarding Xanax, Valium, and/or beta blockers, as well as yoga, biofeedback etc.  I’m type A personality, but never get this adrenaline rush unless it’s time to measure BP, or going on a first date Thanks, flighty-mikey

Response:

Question:

What Makes Tics Tick? Clues Found in Tourette Twins’ Caudates August 1996 For the first time, scientists have a neurobiological explanation for the variation in severity of tics in Tourette Syndrome. Researchers at the National Institute of Mental Health have traced such symptom differences to "supersensitivity" of certain neurotransmitter receptors in the brain structure responsible for carrying out automatic behaviors. They suggest that this dysfunction may underlie the compulsion to act out the sudden movements and vocalizations that characterize Tourette Syndrome, which affects about 100,000 Americans with its full-blown form and up to 0.5% of the population with milder symptoms. The researchers report on their findings in the August 30th issue of Science. In a brain imaging study of identical twins differently affected by the disorder, Daniel Weinberger, M.D., Steven Wolf, M.D., and colleagues in the NIMH Clinical Brain Disorders Branch found that binding to D2 dopamine receptors in the caudate nucleus was higher in the sibling with the more severe symptoms. "Strikingly, the degree to which the twins differed in this caudate D-2 binding predicted almost absolutely their differences in tic severity," said Weinberger. "This also likely explains the ebb and flow of tics experienced over the course of Tourette Syndrome and its overlap with obsessive compulsive disorder. "While we know that genetics plays an important role in transmission of Tourette Syndrome, the fact that identical twins show differences in symptom severity suggests that environmental influences modify the clinical expression of the disorder," he explained. "We studied identical twins discordant for such symptom severity to control for normal genetic variation in brain function." Although previous studies comparing unrelated Tourette patients with unaffected persons had failed to show differences in dopamine system function, the NIMH investigators were spurred by the fact that Tourette symptoms respond to drugs like haloperidol that block D2 dopamine receptors. They used a radioactive tracer drug, IBZM (iodobenzamide), that similarly blocks D2 receptors, and a SPECT* (single-photon emission computed tomography) scanner to image dopamine binding in five identical twin pairs with the disorder. In each case, the differences were observed in the head of the caudate nucleus, but not in the adjacent putamen, suggesting that D2 caudate binding accounted for almost all of the symptomatic variance within each twin pair. Previously, preoccupation with the motoric aspects of Tourette Syndrome had led researchers to search for clues in the putamen, according to Weinberger. Subtle changes in receptor availability in one small area appear to explain rather large differences in clinical presentation, say the researchers. Functional brain imaging studies of OCD (obsessive compulsive disorder), which often occurs along with Tourette Syndrome, also implicate a brain circuit that includes the head of the caudate nucleus, along with areas in the frontal and cingulate cortex. Thus, the new NIMH finding adds to evidence that the disorders are "overlapping neurobehavioral conditions," suggest the researchers. They speculate that the caudate nucleus may be related to the compulsive component of tics, whereas the dopamine dysfunction there may be the "common link between the ideational and motor components of Tourette Syndrome." Other NIMH researchers participating in the study included: Drs. Douglas Jones, Michael Knable, Thomas Hyde, Richard Coppola, Kan Sam Lee, and Julia Gorey. Twin subjects were recruited by the Tourette Syndrome Association, Inc., which also provided partial funding for the study. Additional information and b-roll are available from the association (718-224-2999). Information provided by the NIMH. *The SPECT scanner employs radiation detectors to get a fix on the location in the brain of a tracer drug. Unlike other similar techniques, such as PET (positron emission tomography), SPECT uses a tracer with a long half-life, making possible studies such as this one, which involved a prolonged series of scans over a 4-hour period. http://www.mhsource.com/hy/tic.html

Response:

Hi Elaine, http://www.dystonia-foundation.org/defined/forms.asp This is a link to they Dystonia Research Foundation website. You can check your symptoms with Ormandibular or Meige These are focal forms of Dystonia, which is a movement disorder. These are sometimes caused from side effects from certain medications. I have Blepharospasm which affects the eyes and Meige which affects the face. Facial tics and Meige are very similar. The best type of doctor for diagnosing would be a Movement Disorder Specialist. I was watching Oprah the other day, it was about Tourettes. It was an excellent show. I was very interested in the similaraties of finding things that we can do to get a rest from the movements (tics) they showed a girl who can act and sing on stage tic free. The other things were how we feel inside living and coping with this. The show came about from the book "Icy Sparks" which talks about emotions. Sounds like a great book. Please come back and let us know how you are doing. Best Wishes, Mindy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Hi, I was doing a search online, and obtained a reference to this newsgroup for possible help. I have Tourette Syndrome and have been on different medications over the years. Recently, I was taking Prolxin. When I stopped, a new tic appeared (which is common with TS — for tics to come and go and change). This tic was in my face though and hasn’t followed the usual course of tics I have had in the past. I am concerned that this is not part of TS but rather Tardive Dyskensia caused from taking Prolixin. At this point, I am not sure what to do, or what can be done. I contacted the doctor who prescribed the Prolixin who is located in Houston.  (I live in Albuquerque). He said I should make an appointment to come in for an exam. While this may be the best thing to do, I am concerned, since he was the one who prescribed the Prolixin to begin with. My symptoms include movements in my face, particularly the right side of my face in my jaw and check area. It has become quite painful for my jaw. It is a facial contortion that somewhat looks like chewing, and also smacking with my lips. I have read some information that the earlier it is detected the better the chance it will disappear. I don’t know if there is a treatment for this or not. I also have started taking Vitamin E, as I ran across this information as well as something that could potential help. I would appreciate any advice that I can get from anyone who has information regarding this. thanks, elaine

Response:

Hi, I was doing a search online, and obtained a reference to this newsgroup for possible help. I would appreciate any advice that I can get from anyone who has information regarding this. thanks, elaine

Hi Elaine, I had a no no tic for a few years and can really sympathize with you.  Tics are so exhausting and embarrassing.   Onset started after taking medication for an ulcer.   The prescrition’s name is unknown. I only made the connection between onset and the medication years later. I was never treated for the tic.  It went away on its own.   I do have essential tremor and Dystonia.   Please check out the following sites for more http://www.wfubmc.edu/surg-sci/ns/tremor.html http://www.parkinsons-information-exchange-network-online.com/archive… Regards, Gene

Response:

Hi, I was doing a search online, and obtained a reference to this newsgroup for possible help. I have Tourette Syndrome and have been on different medications over the years. Recently, I was taking Prolxin. When I stopped, a new tic appeared (which is common with TS — for tics to come and go and change). This tic was in my face though and hasn’t followed the usual course of tics I have had in the past. I am concerned that this is not part of TS but rather Tardive Dyskensia caused from taking Prolixin. At this point, I am not sure what to do, or what can be done. I contacted the doctor who prescribed the Prolixin who is located in Houston.  (I live in Albuquerque). He said I should make an appointment to come in for an exam. While this may be the best thing to do, I am concerned, since he was the one who prescribed the Prolixin to begin with. My symptoms include movements in my face, particularly the right side of my face in my jaw and check area. It has become quite painful for my jaw. It is a facial contortion that somewhat looks like chewing, and also smacking with my lips. I have read some information that the earlier it is detected the better the chance it will disappear. I don’t know if there is a treatment for this or not. I also have started taking Vitamin E, as I ran across this information as well as something that could potential help. I would appreciate any advice that I can get from anyone who has information regarding this. thanks, elaine

Response:

What a great group! Thanks for the quick response and the links you have all recommended. This is the kind of doc I went to for my Tourettes. It is Dr. Jankovic at Baylor in Houston. It is a Movement Disorders clinic. Unfortunately, he is also the one who prescribed the Prolixin. I am currently trying to get an appointment with him again to try to figure out what is going on. He also mentioned botox treatment. Has this been successful for any of

you? Several months ago, I heard that someone had gone to Dr. Jandovic in Houston, also for Tourettes and received botox injections.  Apparently, it is being done but I never heard anything else from this young man as to success.   Botox is also being used for tics with success. Dr. Jankovic has a good reputation.   I’ve heard from one lady here locally that saw him but she did not care for his bedside manner.  She hasn’t been happy with any of her doctors, though.  She has Blepharospasm symptoms but apparently keeps getting different diagnoses depending on where she goes. Shirley

Response:

What a great group! Thanks for the quick response and the links you have all recommended. This is the kind of doc I went to for my Tourettes. It is Dr. Jankovic at Baylor in Houston. It is a Movement Disorders clinic. Unfortunately, he is also the one who prescribed the Prolixin. I am currently trying to get an appointment with him again to try to figure out what is going on.

Dr. Jankovic, apparently, is one of the top in his field.  He has an excellent reputation. He also mentioned botox treatment. Has this been successful for any of you?

Botox is used on  focal dystonias.  Many patients have had good results with it.   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Several months ago, I heard that someone had gone to Dr. Jandovic in Shirley

Response:

Hi Mindy, It has been very helpful! I am grateful for the information. Positive thinking – BINGO Stress Management and Humor are the best medicines. I can’t forget God and prayer, is #1

Yes, I can see where all of these would be important. I have noticed stress plays a big part in the disorder. It does in Tourettes as well, but seems to be more so with this. the eye twitch you refer to I might describe as a soft fluttering feeling.

right, that is what I a good example… Our eye spasms are involuntary but they are hard blinks, sometimes forecful. Other times they close and will not open on command. These type of spasms are very noticable. The eye and facial spasms are extremely hard to suppress.

Tics from tourettes are involuntary as well, but there is this sense at some level that you "should" be able to stop the movement. I feel this as well with whatever is going on with my face. Even though realistically it doesn’t feel like I can stop it, it also doesn’t feel as involuntary as the eye twitch described above. It also seems much harder to suppress than tics that I normally have with TS. It also feels like it is getting worse. I don’t know if that is from stress or maybe from being off the offending medication for a longer period of time. Its very confusing! And painful… Just like TS, when I do try to suppress it, it is only short lived. It seems to be more prevalent in frequency as well compared to the tics I have with TS. That is exactly what happens. It would help if I laid down closed my eyes, opened my mouthly slightly, relaxing my jaw and my face. I would take slow deep breaths and focused on relaxing each part of my body from my head to my toes (very slowly, as I said the words to my self, relax your head, etc.) and don’t move on until each part is relaxed.

I will try this as well. It would be nice to get some relief. Dr.Jankovic is well known. I don’t know anything about him personally. I go to Dr. Bressman in Manhattan, she is an excellent doctor. She has tried me on many meds that didn’t agree with me at all. These types of disorders require lot’s of patience from the doctor as well as the patient to see which meds. or combination of meds. that will help. Life would be much easier if we all responded the same way to these meds. but, we don’t, unfortunately.

This is true for TS as well…except there really are no meds that really work with TS. Some will reduce tics, but none will make them go away. Unless for example, you take a neuroleptic in a high dose. In that case your tics would probably subside, but you wouldn’t be able to think! I’m pretty sure Dr.J. is one of the very dedicated doctors of this field. It’s important you have confidence in your doctor. Does he listen carefully and take his time with you? These things are also important.

I have only seen him once, last December. And he seemed pretty good. I e-mailed him about my frustrations of calling his office and not being able to get an appointment till December, and he wrote and said he would have his secretary arrange to overbook me on a day soon. So I was pleased to hear this. For a long time Dr.Bressman had me as "Meige vs. tics"  She said it is so similar.

I can see that! I think that has been a big part of my confusion. They are so similar it is hard to tell them apart. She would ask if I felt the need to blink, before I blinked. It was hard for me to answer because it was always changing.

It is common with TS to have "premonitory" feelings before a tic. That is probably why she was asking you this. For example, I have a tic that is in my torso. Inevitably, when I get in the car to go somewhere, I "have to" tic. I twist my upper torso from left to right repeatedly, until it "feels right". And I can always tell before I tic that it is going to happen. If anything, the tic or problem with my face now feels more like "a habit". That somehow it has become a habit for my jaw and mouth to contort about every 30 seconds or so. When I sleep, I don’t have it. I wake up in the morning and think, if I try really hard today, maybe it won’t come back. And it always does. Seems to get worse as the day progresses as well. I am hoping it is not damaging my jaw. It feels like it could be. It hurts into the jaw bone. I will be seeing my dentist next week, so I will ask if any damage has occurred. She said the treatment is the same. I was getting botox around my eyes and in my jaw.  It did help me.. How long it helps varies with each person. About 2 yrs ago it stopped helping. Which worked out fine, cause presently I am on medication that is helping.

What medication is that? Are you experiencing any side-effects from it? When you do something creative that you are totally engrossed in, you get a reprieve from your tics. Stress makes them worse. During sleep, they are usually much better Is this true with dystonia as well? Another BINGO Many with dystonia we found from our discussions hum or sing or make some type of sound.

I haven’t found that doing something creative helps alleviate the facial movements at all. Actually, that was probably my first clue that it might not be a "normal tic" that I experience with TS. I haven’t tried humming or singing though…definitely worth a try! Also, many have problems breathing they tend to subside when the spasms are helped with medicine. Does this happen with TS?

No, breathing problems are not common with TS. I can see where I tend to breathe more shallow now because of this facial tic. It’s kind of like your whole body is taking a toll because of the tic. Kind of like your whole body tenses up, which then makes your breathing worse. But on a more physical level, like the feeling of asthma, I have not experienced that. Thanks for all the help! I really appreciate it. I am trying to learn as much as I can about this before I see Dr. Jankovic in the next couple of weeks. Have you had Meige all of your life of is it fairly recent? Do you know what caused it? thanks again, elaine

Response:

It has been very helpful! I am grateful for the information.

Me too )) It also feels like it is getting worse. I don’t know if that is from stress or maybe from being off the offending medication for a longer period of time. Its very confusing! And painful…

It might be a good idea if you write down all these feelings and symptoms because they are easy to forget. Take them with you when you go to the doctor. Leave a space between your questions, fill in with his replies. My sypmtoms started 8yrs. ago, it was my 40th birthday present (Ha Ha) (( I don’t know what caused it. My first few visits I took a small tape recorder with me, along with my husband and sister-in-law. None of us could have remembered everything, and we all walk out hearing something a little different – LOL For the pain, you can try moist warm heat or ice, you will get to know which makes you feel better. Don’t chew gum, that will give your jaw more of a work-out. You can suck on hard candy. That sucking action works the reverse of chewing. The dentist made me a mouth piece, nothing fancy, inexpensive. It’s clear rubber, molded from my teeth. I asked him to make the back a little thicker.  I wore it mostly during the night. There were times when I needed it for driving (sounds strange) It really is very painful, and no one can understand how exhausting it can be, unless you’ve experienced it. Really all the dystonia movements are painful and exhausting. TS tics are not painful or exhausting? This is true for TS as well…except there really are no meds that really work with TS. Some will reduce tics, but none will make them go away.

BINGO – they don’t know the cause, and they don’t have a cure.  Unless for example, you take a neuroleptic in a high dose.

My doctor told me Never Ever take any neuroleptics or dopamine blockers. There are lists of meds. that can cause dystonia. But strangely enough many on that list are prescribed to help dystonia. Let’s hope and pray if yours came from that med. it will subside and go away. I was given meds that gave me crazy side effects like making my arms fling about, and my head shake, etc. They did go away when the med. was out of my system. I e-mailed him about my frustrations of calling his office and not being able to get an appointment till

It does get frustrating, between the doses, and symptoms, there was always questions. I ended up goint to a psychiatrist in my neighborhood who is board certified in psychiatry and neurology to monitor my meds. He was in contact with my Movement Specialist, and I don’t take anything unless she ok’s it. When I sleep, I don’t have it. I wake up in the morning and think, if I try really hard today, maybe it won’t come back. And it always does. Seems to get worse as the day progresses as well.

Dystonia spasms go away while sleeping. It helps to get a good nights sleep, and a nap in the afternoon. I remember waking up with those exact feelings. What medication is that? Are you experiencing any side-effects from it?

I’m taking Parsitan, (My psych.does not monitor this med) It’s not sold in the States. I get it from Canada. I notice some short term memory loss. I haven’t found that doing something creative helps alleviate the facial movements at all.

I was able to crotchet, gardening, be on the computer, these would alleviate the movements, most of the time. I actually thought I could re-train my brain by doing something that kept my eyes open, I would stay at it for hours, days, months -LOL I still keep my hopes up that my brain will work around the mis-fired neurotransmitters.  Positive thinking LOL I can see where I tend to breathe more shallow now because of this facial tic. It’s kind of like your whole body is taking a toll because of the tic. Kind of like your whole body tenses up, which then makes your breathing worse.

I think you hit the nail on the head. If you pracitce deep breathing excersises everyday, it will automatically kick in when you need it. It takes a long time, but the everyday benefits are definately worth it. Not only for us, for everyone. It’s great for mind and body. Thanks for all the help! I really appreciate it. I am trying to learn as much as I can about this before I see Dr. Jankovic in the next couple of weeks.

I’m really enjoying our chit-chat Marie and Shirley have the same type of dystonia as I do. Hey Marie & Shirley, we could use your 2 cents thanks again, elaine

thank you, Elaine, Mindy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

What a great group! Thanks for the quick response and the links you have all recommended. I had a no no tic for a few years and can really sympathize with you.  Tics are so exhausting and embarrassing.

yes. they sure can be! it is a bizarre disorder… I was never treated for the tic.  It went away on its own. I do have essential tremor and Dystonia.

I am hoping that I caught this soon enough and it will go away…positive thinking! It is interesting that you have essential tremor. When I went to see a new specialist last December regarding my Tourettes, he did a standard neurological evaluation and also told me I had essential tremor. I had known for years that my hands would shake for no apparent reason. Primarily when I tried to do fine detail work. Interestingly enough, I am a graphic designer. Most of my work now is done on computer. But in the past, and still when I paint or illustrate, if I am really focused, my hands don’t seem to shake. Yet, if I am doing something "non-creative" like trying to screw in a screw or solder something, they shake so much it is hard to be effective. My hands have been this way so long that I just thought it was me…so I was surprised when my doc had a term to describe it. You can check your symptoms with Ormandibular or Meige…

<snip thanks for the links… one of my questions is that in the description of these disorders, it describes it many times as being a "spasm" What is happening with me, doesn’t feel like a spasm. We sometimes have discussions like this on Tourettes lists that I am on, so I am sure you have discussed how these movements "feel"… To me a spasm feels more involuntary. For example, an eye twitch. This is a common experience that most people experience at different times in their life. The muscle twitches, fairly rapidly and the person has absolutely no control over it. Is that what dystonia is like? That is not what is happening for me. This movement is actually very similar to the tics I experience with Tourettes — if I really try, I can somewhat suppress this movement. The thing that feels different with the facial movements I am describing to you compared to the tics I normally feel with TS is that it is more difficult to suppress the movement. Just like TS, when I do try to suppress it, it is only short lived. It seems to be more prevalent in frequency as well compared to the tics I have with TS. The best type of doctor for diagnosing would be a Movement Disorder Specialist.

This is the kind of doc I went to for my Tourettes. It is Dr. Jankovic at Baylor in Houston. It is a Movement Disorders clinic. Unfortunately, he is also the one who prescribed the Prolixin. I am currently trying to get an appointment with him again to try to figure out what is going on. He also mentioned botox treatment. Has this been successful for any of you? I was watching Oprah the other day, it was about Tourettes. It was an excellent show.

Yes, it was very well done! There were a lot of shows in the past that only showed the sensationalized aspects of Tourettes, so it was nice to see one that was accurate for a change! I was very interested in the similaraties of finding things that we can do to get a rest from the movements (tics) they showed a girl who can act and sing on stage tic free.

this seems to be fairly common with TS. When you do something creative that you are totally engrossed in, you get a reprieve from your tics. Stress makes them worse. During sleep, they are usually much better. Is this true with dystonia as well? Thanks again Gene and Mindy for your help! sincerely, elaine

Response:

I am French, though I don’t understand all the details of your conversation, I am very interested in reading your messages. I’ve been suffering from what is called "hemispasme" in French for about 8 years. Obviously it is not genetic but the symptoms are very similar to what I can read in some of your messages. It started slighly with my right eye as I was expecting my fourth child. No doctors could really help me, giving me neuroleptic which had all the possible effects on my body except on my eye. 2 years ago, I was about leaving my job I love so much, I couldn’t bear the spasms which occured every 30 seconds all day long. Though my life was harmonious, however I felt exhausted. My doctor sent me to a French specialist who started Botox. I have injections every three months, the medicine comes from the US and is not entirely recognized in France as it is considered as a "treatment for comfort !!". Besides, it is very expensive. I’ve had a new life since that time, though the right side of my face has changed a bit -people often ask me why I am so tired !. I perhaps look tired, but I feel very enthusiastic inside. I am 40 now and I wonder how long Botox will continue to help me. Have a nice day; Jo

Question:

Anne Haas wrote:

. I wish some talk show host would do a program called "MOVE THE HELL ON, THAT WAS 20 YEARS AGO." Anne Anne, you are my hero also.  I wanna be like you when (if) I ever grow up.  :-)

DITTO!  :-) Joanne

Response:

Indyguy1 wrote:

Well, then you haven’t been reading all the threads. I posted a number of time times prior to the Jennifer thread in the past week or so. In fact Anne R asked me a week or so ago where the heck I’d been.

Well, I did. I don’t know where this bit about you being a troll got started, but I personally have gotten quite a bit out of your posts in the past. I did think you were a little harsh to Jennifer there, she’s in a tough situation and dont’ forget she’s very young too. I remember being in love at 22, I’d go back there in a second! But I’ve also learned a lot of very tough things in these 28-33 years, and a LOT of them I didn’t know and wouldn’t have accepted at the beginning of my relationship. Some people arent’ ready to give up the pain. But I never thought of you as a troll… is somebody saying I did? Is that why my name came up? I was glad you were back when you started posting again! Anne

Response:

Anne wrote:

Indyguy1 wrote: Well, then you haven’t been reading all the threads. I posted a number of time times prior to the Jennifer thread in the past week or so. In fact Anne R asked me a week or so ago where the heck I’d been. Well, I did.

Thanks for backing me up.:)  I don’t know where this bit about you being a troll got started,

but I personally have gotten quite a bit out of your posts in the past.

Thank you and I from yours.:) Not to mention a number of belly laughs! You are one funny lady!  I did think

you were a little harsh to Jennifer there,

I agree and I did apologize.  she’s in a tough situation and dont’ forget

she’s very young too. I remember being in love at 22, I’d go back there in a second!

LOL I should be so lucky to be able to remember that far aback.:)  But

I’ve also learned a lot of very tough things in these 28-33 years, and a LOT of them I didn’t know and wouldn’t have accepted at the beginning of my

relationship.

Some people arent’ ready to give up the pain.

How true.

But I never thought of you as a troll… is somebody saying I did?

No. Apparently lil and Geri were discussing that I was most likely a troll. I guess lil also brought it up at Shay’s baby shower.  Is that

why my name came up?

No *I* brought up your name as I knew you would remember I had posted prior to the infamous Jennifer thread. Lil had thought I had not posted in a long while and felt I caused some sort of riff between her and Merrie and then wasn’t around again until this Jennifer thing. Leading her to asssume I was a troll. I was glad you were back when you started posting again! Thanks for saying that Anne. Indy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Anne

Response:

I, for one, have a HUGE problem with this.  When Mike and I were having problems, you could have never, ever, ever convinced me that Tori was better off with a f— up for a dad and a mother who did everything.  I was a single parent in a two parent home.  When he told me that he’d give up his parental rights in order NOT to pay CS, I was so thrilled!  I’d have gone with that deal in a heart beat! I was NOT going to stay in a marriage where I was cussed out daily, told that HIS son was perfect and it was ME that had the problem, one night I had a boot shoved in my face because MY dog chewed it up.  I can remember another night I was sick and asked Mike to let Tori lie with him for a minute.  I’m in the bathroom throwing up, Tori’s crying – and he’s yelling at her for crying! Yeah, this is a marriage I would have stayed in for my child’s sake.  Don’t think so.  My daughter would have been better off without the father, thank you very much. Of course, since Mike has gotten his act together, Tori likes the father he’s become and Mike has realized that everyone making excuses for his son has given him a reason NOT to accept responsibility for his problems (hence, the running away because he got caught with drugs – it’s easier to run than deal with the consequences). Unfortunately, my SS had 13 1/2 years to have everyone feel sorry for him and justify WHY he shouldn’t have to face consequences for his actions. Lying?  Oh, that’s just him – he lies so much, I don’t think he knows how to tell the truth any more.  Stealing?  Oh, no, he’d never do that. Yeah, we’re trying to work on the marriage, but between the son’s attitude, Mike’s parents attitude of we can do no right and SS can do no wrong, and the ex’s attitude of she’s a better parent – there are days I’d rather live in Alaska than continue this marriage. "Indyguy1" <indyg…@aol.com

wrote in message

news:20001019014520.00976.00000407@ng-fo1.aol.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

I think Brian has a copy of one of her studies stating that she feels

that

parents should stay in bad marriages for their childrens’ sakes.  (Unless there is domestic violence, child abuse or drug use.) From my understanding she feels couples should try their best to work out

their

differances for the sake of everyone, including themselves, in families. Do you have a problem with this train of thought, Geri?

Response:

"Wendy A. S. Taylor" <ccx…@coventry.ac.uk

wrote in message

news:8smkc6$fq0$1@leofric.coventry.ac.uk…

Well I have to say that I didn’t read anything offensive, or troll like in her post.

Did you read anything particularly helpful or supportive in it?  I didn’t.

It’s your perogative to killfile her if you want, but why say so on the newsgroup.

Um…because it came up in a conversation with Geri?  Did it offend you in some way I don’t know about?  Is there some new content bylaw on here that I maybe missed?

 Other people can and will make their own minds up about who and what to read.

Of course they can.  Good Lord, where was it I said that everyone should ignore her or kill her?  Geri said that she suspected that she was a troll and I commented that I thought so too.  I changed the subject because I was no longer discussing Oprah. Get a grip, hon.  When exactly did you become the newsgroup police? lil — "It’s hard when you discover what keeps you going keeps you all alone."  – Blue Rodeo

Response:

Anne Robotti <robo…@worldnet.att.net

wrote in message

news:39EEE01B.3E8E08C3@worldnet.att.net… I wish some talk show host would do a program called "MOVE THE

HELL ON, THAT WAS 20 YEARS AGO."

Anne anne anne anne anne – ROFLLL.

Response:

"rebecca" <justrebec…@yahoo.com

wrote in message

news:1pGH5.8713$ji3.197226@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net…

Hmm… lil, I always thought Al was pretty reasonable

Alan *was* pretty reasonable.  But his character wasn’t consistent. For instance, he was only more than happy to trash Enricho Suave for his comments, but before he left he jumped down our throats for the way *we* responded to him. There’s more, but it’s kind of hard to explain.  It was never intended to start a major discussion, I was just making a comment.  :-) lil — "It’s hard when you discover what keeps you going keeps you all alone."  – Blue Rodeo

Response:

Hey Tea, I’m sure I won’t be the only one saying this. Mediation..(and Vicki will correct me if I’m wrong, hopefully) Mediation is a fabulous avenue for parents like you, who are *able* to agree, and can set "looser" terms to the children’s custody schedules. However, if you’ve been lurking long, you’ll have already found that a large part of this group comes from situations that this would be impossible…and unfortunately the courts do have to have the end say. Even then, justice or fairness doesn’t always happen. So..basically you are correct, the system assumes there is a war going on, because if there is no prior agreement reached…that is the ground the courts see them on. ange In article <gKFH5.112147$47.1480…@news.bc.tac.net

,

  "Hilander" <hilan…@block.lightspeed.ca

wrote:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

"Indyguy1" <indyg…@aol.com wrote in message news:20001019014520.00976.00000407@ng-fo1.aol.com… But regarless of Wallerstien’s feelings on who should divorce and

who

shouldn’t, the results of her findings on how divorce and the way

parents

act post-divorce stand on their own. This is a valid point. My ex and I are not yet legally divorced [can't afford it financially

at

this time] but have been living seperate and apart for almost 5 years. We’ve both looked into doing it ourselves but are afraid that we might

get

something wrong on the paper and can’t afford [financially] to be

making

those kinds of mistakes only to have to do it again. What gets both of us is how the ’system’ is set up.  We do get along

fairly

well as people but as parents, we are both on the same page and have

no

problems.  The ’system’ however, not only assumes there must be a

‘war’ but

there is so much there that we believe provokes negative feelings when

there

needn’t be. We have joint custody and guardianship.  We do NOT like the idea of

courts

telling either of us when we can or can’t see kids because we have

always

worked it out verbally with no problems and we can’t imagine how

difficult

it must be on adults as well as kids if there is no flexibility.  Life

is

not static.  It is dynamic! But the papers we looked at default to one parent or the other having

’sole

custody’.  Why?  If we were ‘pushed’ into that route [through lawyers, family and friends] then I can see how it would cause negative

feelings

because your mind is then tuned to look for ‘negatives’ in one parent

over

the other as a parent.  Not healthy. At a time like that, wouldn’t it be better for kids if the system

helped

promote and celebrate the *strengths* of both parents and how those strengths could compliment and work well with each other as parents?! I don’t want a piece of paper telling me that ex can only see kids on weekends.  What if they have a weekday off from school and dad has

tickets

to the hockey game?  What if one of the kids has been invited to a

birthday

party on the weekend and doesn’t want to go away that day? While in some cases, the personality of the individual parents may be

a big

problem for the divorce process and/or seperation, I also see that the system and even societal attitude towards divorce/seperation pushes

people

into seperate corners of the mat when they might not have gone there

in the

first place. I don’t think seperation/divorce is bad for kids, however, the current process and aftermath as it is set up today I do believe has a

detrimental

effect on *everyone* involved unless they actively and consciously

work

around/against the system. Chat later, Tea

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

Response:

On Thu, 19 Oct 2000 01:47:52 -0700, "lilblakdog" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -<lbdcreati…@dog.com

wrote: "Geri and Brian" <gplen…@aol.comicrelief wrote in message news:20001019034446.05269.00000435@ng-cb1.aol.com… Are you a troll? Indy showed up just as Alan Moore and his wife disappeared (and, quite frankly, I had my doubts about *their* sincerity, as *they* showed up just as Enricho Suave disappeared).  She was sticking up for Alan’s wife by asking us not to use the term biomom to differentiate, because we *weren’t* mothers in any way, shape or form. She had a couple of serious sounding posts, one of which started something of a dispute between Merrie and I.  I couldn’t help but notice that *during* this dispute, Indy was nowhere to be seen.  When I was down in Tacoma for Shay’s baby shower, I’d mentioned that I suspected that she was just trolling. Her response to Jennifer/John Durden is the first one of her posts that I’ve read since, and her tactic has changed rather severely from the concerned great-aunt who doesn’t want to offend anybody.  So now I’m basically certain that she *is* a troll and will be blocking her posts.

Oh shut teh hell up. YOur ignorant McCarthyesque accusations are pathetic at best. STop trying to be a netcop. Loev, Poopie Pants

Response:

Geri wrote:

Do you have a problem with this train of thought, Geri? I don’t have a strong opinion about it one way or the other.  Are you a troll?

Nope. But I see you’d like to portray me as one, seeing as I don’t always agree with the way you see and do things.

You are rude to everyone.

Everyone? Hardly. Indy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

lil wrote:

"Geri and Brian" <gplen…@aol.comicrelief wrote in message news:20001019034446.05269.00000435@ng-cb1.aol.com… Are you a troll? Indy showed up just as Alan Moore and his wife disappeared (and, quite frankly, I had my doubts about *their* sincerity, as *they* showed up just as Enricho Suave disappeared).  She was sticking up for Alan’s wife by asking us not to use the term biomom to differentiate, because we *weren’t* mothers in any way, shape or form.

Uh, excuse me. I do not know the people you speak of. I don’t even remember much of the thread. But I do remember I did NOT say step-mothers were not mothers in any way shape or form.

She had a couple of serious sounding posts, one of which started something of a dispute between Merrie and I.

I don’t recall any dispute between you and Merrie. But then again I am not a constant on this ng. And if you and Merrie disagree or any other posters on this or any other ng it is between the two of you or them not anyone else. And anything *I* post about or respond to I consider serious.  I couldn’t help but notice that *during*

this dispute, Indy was nowhere to be seen.

Well hang me out to dry because I don’t check in here as often as others do. Geesh  When I was down in Tacoma for

Shay’s baby shower, I’d mentioned that I suspected that she was just trolling.

I thought trolls came in and stirred up trouble then left. I asked questions. I gave comments. I come back because of our nephew and the mess he is in. There are some here that I really value their opinion. You were one of them. You might want to check the 15 years hence thread and see the compliment I paid you, earlier this week or last week.

Her response to Jennifer/John Durden is the first one of her posts that I’ve read since,

Well, then you haven’t been reading all the threads. I posted a number of time times prior to the Jennifer thread in the past week or so. In fact Anne R asked me a week or so ago where the heck I’d been. and her tactic has changed rather severely from the concerned

great-aunt who doesn’t want to offend anybody.

I’m usually very calm in my responces on this ng. There was something that really bothered me about Jennifer’s stance on her b/f’s children, their mother and her role in the boy’s lives. Maybe it was her arrogance or the desire for her to see the boy’s mother out of their lives after only being their dad’s g/f for about one year, I’m not sure. But in the mean time I did apologize to her. Although from reading the way she responds to many of the good solid ideas she has been given it looks like she may not want any helpful sugestions, afterall.   So now I’m basically certain

that she *is* a troll and will be blocking her posts.

If you choose to block my posts, Lil, that is your perogative. But to think I am a troll is not only false but really less than I expected of you. Indy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

lil

Response:

In a previous article, "Hilander" <hilan…@block.lightspeed.ca

said:

<I don’t want a piece of paper telling me that ex can only see kids on <weekends.  What if they have a weekday off from school and dad has tickets <to the hockey game?  What if one of the kids has been invited to a birthday <party on the weekend and doesn’t want to go away that day? Then so what?  One of the things I stress with my mediation clients is that the agreement is for both of them, and that the separation police aren’t going to be checking to see if parenting time is going to go the way the document says it does.  The doc is there to set basic expectations and to satisfy the court that everyone has knowledge of the important things.  You can put it into practice **any** way that you and your ex want to.  Any way at all.  Total freedom to do that. See a mediator.  It makes divorce *much* cheaper, especially when you and your ex get along as well as you seem to.  Any competent mediator can put all the flexibility you want in your agreement. Vicki — Bring Dejanews back to life!  See the petition at http://www2.petitionsonline.com/dejanews/petition.html and sign it. Help bring back a valuable Usenet resource!

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Do these whining *adult* brats think they would have been any happier in a home where their parents were two miserable people who *should* have been divorced? Been there, done that, NEVER going back. One of the things I always promised myself I’d do for my children is have the strength and courage to get divorced if their Dad and I really couldn’t work things out. I made this promise to myself when I was *nine years old.* If kids need counseling to get them through the divorce, to help them cope, I’m all for it. But this Oprah thing is going to be another attempt to excuse these people’s actions as adults because of their pain as a child. I had pain as a child too, every- body did. I wish some talk show host would do a program called "MOVE THE HELL ON, THAT WAS 20 YEARS AGO." Anne

Anne, you are my hero also.  I wanna be like you when (if) I ever grow up.  :-) Anne H. "To the world you might be one person, but to one person you might be  the world."

Response:

"Indyguy1" <indyg…@aol.com

wrote in message

news:20001019014520.00976.00000407@ng-fo1.aol.com…

But regarless of Wallerstien’s feelings on who should divorce and who shouldn’t, the results of her findings on how divorce and the way parents

act

post-divorce stand on their own.

This is a valid point. My ex and I are not yet legally divorced [can't afford it financially at this time] but have been living seperate and apart for almost 5 years. We’ve both looked into doing it ourselves but are afraid that we might get something wrong on the paper and can’t afford [financially] to be making those kinds of mistakes only to have to do it again. What gets both of us is how the ’system’ is set up.  We do get along fairly well as people but as parents, we are both on the same page and have no problems.  The ’system’ however, not only assumes there must be a ‘war’ but there is so much there that we believe provokes negative feelings when there needn’t be. We have joint custody and guardianship.  We do NOT like the idea of courts telling either of us when we can or can’t see kids because we have always worked it out verbally with no problems and we can’t imagine how difficult it must be on adults as well as kids if there is no flexibility.  Life is not static.  It is dynamic! But the papers we looked at default to one parent or the other having ’sole custody’.  Why?  If we were ‘pushed’ into that route [through lawyers, family and friends] then I can see how it would cause negative feelings because your mind is then tuned to look for ‘negatives’ in one parent over the other as a parent.  Not healthy. At a time like that, wouldn’t it be better for kids if the system helped promote and celebrate the *strengths* of both parents and how those strengths could compliment and work well with each other as parents?! I don’t want a piece of paper telling me that ex can only see kids on weekends.  What if they have a weekday off from school and dad has tickets to the hockey game?  What if one of the kids has been invited to a birthday party on the weekend and doesn’t want to go away that day? While in some cases, the personality of the individual parents may be a big problem for the divorce process and/or seperation, I also see that the system and even societal attitude towards divorce/seperation pushes people into seperate corners of the mat when they might not have gone there in the first place. I don’t think seperation/divorce is bad for kids, however, the current process and aftermath as it is set up today I do believe has a detrimental effect on *everyone* involved unless they actively and consciously work around/against the system. Chat later, Tea

Response:

lilblakdog <lbdcreati…@dog.com

wrote in message

news:tyyH5.1009$sq4.23642@newscontent-01.sprint.ca…

Indy showed up just as Alan Moore and his wife disappeared (and, quite frankly, I had my doubts about *their* sincerity, as *they* showed up just as Enricho Suave disappeared).  She was sticking up for Alan’s wife by asking us not to use the term biomom to differentiate, because we

*weren’t*

mothers in any way, shape or form.

Hmm… lil, I always thought Al was pretty reasonable, and IIRC, everyone _did_ jump straight down his wife’s (Ginny?) throat for whatever comment she made. Go figger.

Response:

Tommorrow morning author Judith Wallerstien will be on Oprah tommorrow. Her latest book, The Unexpected Legacy of Divorce, uncovers many of the feelings children of divorce have towards divorce and the way their lives went after their parents divorced.

I think Brian has a copy of one of her studies stating that she feels that parents should stay in bad marriages for their childrens’ sakes.  (Unless there is domestic violence, child abuse or drug use.)   ~~~~~~~~~~ Geri   ^   ^      

 ’  ’ <

"There is no snooze button on a cat who wants breakfast."- Anonymous ~~~~~~~~~~

Response:

Geri wrote:

Tommorrow morning author Judith Wallerstien will be on Oprah tommorrow. Her latest book, The Unexpected Legacy of Divorce, uncovers many of the feelings children of divorce have towards divorce and the way their lives went after their parents divorced. I think Brian has a copy of one of her studies stating that she feels that parents should stay in bad marriages for their childrens’ sakes.  (Unless there is domestic violence, child abuse or drug use.)  

From my understanding she feels couples should try their best to work out their differances for the sake of everyone, including themselves, in families. Do you have a problem with this train of thought, Geri? But regarless of Wallerstien’s feelings on who should divorce and who shouldn’t, the results of her findings on how divorce and the way parents act post-divorce stand on their own. Gee, I wonder if the poor results of children of divorce that she followed for 25 years could be part of the reason she would prefer to see families stick together? Indy

Response:

Do you have a problem with this train of thought, Geri?

I don’t have a strong opinion about it one way or the other.  Are you a troll? You are rude to everyone. ~~~~~~~~~~ Geri   ^   ^      

 ’  ’ <

"There is no snooze button on a cat who wants breakfast."- Anonymous ~~~~~~~~~~

Response:

"Geri and Brian" <gplen…@aol.comicrelief

wrote in message

news:20001019034446.05269.00000435@ng-cb1.aol.com…

Are you a troll?

Indy showed up just as Alan Moore and his wife disappeared (and, quite frankly, I had my doubts about *their* sincerity, as *they* showed up just as Enricho Suave disappeared).  She was sticking up for Alan’s wife by asking us not to use the term biomom to differentiate, because we *weren’t* mothers in any way, shape or form. She had a couple of serious sounding posts, one of which started something of a dispute between Merrie and I.  I couldn’t help but notice that *during* this dispute, Indy was nowhere to be seen.  When I was down in Tacoma for Shay’s baby shower, I’d mentioned that I suspected that she was just trolling. Her response to Jennifer/John Durden is the first one of her posts that I’ve read since, and her tactic has changed rather severely from the concerned great-aunt who doesn’t want to offend anybody.  So now I’m basically certain that she *is* a troll and will be blocking her posts. lil — "It’s hard when you discover what keeps you going keeps you all alone."  – Blue Rodeo

Response:

In article <tyyH5.1009$sq4.23…@newscontent-01.sprint.ca

,

lilblakdog <lbdcreati…@dog.com

wrote: Her response to Jennifer/John Durden is the first one of her posts that I’ve read since, and her tactic has changed rather severely from the concerned great-aunt who doesn’t want to offend anybody.  So now I’m basically certain that she *is* a troll and will be blocking her posts.

Well I have to say that I didn’t read anything offensive, or troll like in her post.   It’s your perogative to killfile her if you want, but why say so on the newsgroup.  Other people can and will make their own minds up about who and what to read. Wendy

Response:

In article <20001018220913.15571.00000…@ng-cv1.aol.com

, posted 19 Oct

2000 02:09:13 GMT, Geri and Brian says…

Tommorrow morning author Judith Wallerstien will be on Oprah tommorrow. Her latest book, The Unexpected Legacy of Divorce, uncovers many of the feelings children of divorce have towards divorce and the way their lives went after their parents divorced. I think Brian has a copy of one of her studies stating that she feels that parents should stay in bad marriages for their childrens’ sakes.  (Unless there is domestic violence, child abuse or drug use.)  

You know, my mother stayed in her marriage for her children’s sake, for my sake. I unconsciously learned that I was responsible for my mother’s unhappy life. I heard about her sacrifice almost every day. It took me six years after leaving to realise that I was in a land of psychological torture, and I’m still dealing with the crap ten years later. If Wallerstein has a study stating that people should stay in unhappy marriages for the children’s sake, she’s shot herself in the foot. K**** — Quotes of a five year old girl: "I felt some wriggly things on my head but they were only my own two fingers playing with themselves. I thought it might be a worm."

Response:

In article <39EEDB73.246C…@ntcorp.com

, Karla  <ka…@ntcorp.com wrote: Gee, I wonder if the poor results of children of divorce that she followed for 25 years could be part of the reason she would prefer to see families stick together? I know that one of the flaws in the scientific method is that people tend to skew results to support their hypothesis…especially in the social sciences.  It’s too bad because the scientific method is supposed

The social sciences are very difficult to be scientific in because it is almost impossible to control extraneous factors.

to allow you the chance to examine data to see if your hypothesis is right or wrong, but because of the way grant money and other financial resources tied to "results," people now actively skew the data to support their hypothesis or risk becoming labeled as a non-producer and loosing financial support.

This is true even in the sciences.

Mark Twain said there are three types of lies: Lies, damned lies and statistics.  There’s a reason for that.  I’ve worked in marketing, I know that you tell the "professionals" what you want to prove and they find the data to support your findings.  

One of my favourite authors.

The main criticism I have read on this book (I’m on the waiting list for the book, so I haven’t read it yet) is that her conclusions are flawed due to unequal comparisions.  In other words, she’s not comparing apples and apples, she’s comparing apples and oranges and declaring that the apples rule.

I haven’t read the book, nor seen the programme, but I have done quite a lot of reading on the subject of academic performance and divorce This is quite an interesting URL:  www.prospect.org/archives/18/18mcla.html I know it is harder to supervise two children doing homework, on my own, and still make sure supper, dishes, etc. all get done.  I know that I can’t control what is being done at my ex’s, though this isn’t to say that he doesn’t care or try in his own fashion. After the counselling you went through, Karla, did they give any counselling/advice for you and your ex for co-parenting thereafter? Wendy

Response:

I have been reading the threads started by Judith. I understand her pain and dissapointment because of her adult children’s actions. Perhaps by understanding more about the long lasting effects of divorce on children and how children may not be as reslient as some adults who have divorced wish to believe they are many step-parents, along with birth-parents, can understand more fully why adult children do and say the things they do and say. Not that I am saying Judith’s kids were correct in their treatment of her, as I don’t feel they were. Tommorrow morning author Judith Wallerstien will be on Oprah tommorrow. Her latest book, The Unexpected Legacy of Divorce, uncovers many of the feelings children of divorce have towards divorce and the way their lives went after their parents divorced. The people she speaks with and about in her books are now adults. She followed them from the time of divorce in their childhood into adulthood. I don’t know if steps will be addressed in her interview, but even if they aren’t, I’m sure this show will give all parents who raise or help raise children that have been touched by divorce a better idea of what divorce does to children and how the parent’s actions impact the children’s lives into adulthood. This might be worth taping if you won’t be home when Oprah is on. Heck, it might be good enough that your spouse and you should view it together! If it’s *really* good it might be worth sending a copy to your ex or your spouses ex.:) Indy (who already read the book and can’t wait for the interview!)

Response:

Sorry Indy, but OH GAG! I know I’m going to sound just evil when I say this, but I’m sick of bending over backwards to understand the effects of divorce on the poor little angels. Sometimes people get divorced, sometimes people die, and I just think it’s a symptom of everything that’s wrong with our society that we coddle kids through this and excuse their most selfish actions by trying to "understand their point of view." Do these whining *adult* brats think they would have been any happier in a home where their parents were two miserable people who *should* have been divorced? Been there, done that, NEVER going back. One of the things I always promised myself I’d do for my children is have the strength and courage to get divorced if their Dad and I really couldn’t work things out. I made this promise to myself when I was *nine years old.* If kids need counseling to get them through the divorce, to help them cope, I’m all for it. But this Oprah thing is going to be another attempt to excuse these people’s actions as adults because of their pain as a child. I had pain as a child too, every- body did. I wish some talk show host would do a program called "MOVE THE HELL ON, THAT WAS 20 YEARS AGO." Anne – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Indyguy1 wrote:

I have been reading the threads started by Judith. I understand her pain and dissapointment because of her adult children’s actions. Perhaps by understanding more about the long lasting effects of divorce on children and how children may not be as reslient as some adults who have divorced wish to believe they are many step-parents, along with birth-parents, can understand more fully why adult children do and say the things they do and say. Not that I am saying Judith’s kids were correct in their treatment of her, as I don’t feel they were. Tommorrow morning author Judith Wallerstien will be on Oprah tommorrow. Her latest book, The Unexpected Legacy of Divorce, uncovers many of the feelings children of divorce have towards divorce and the way their lives went after their parents divorced. The people she speaks with and about in her books are now adults. She followed them from the time of divorce in their childhood into adulthood. I don’t know if steps will be addressed in her interview, but even if they aren’t, I’m sure this show will give all parents who raise or help raise children that have been touched by divorce a better idea of what divorce does to children and how the parent’s actions impact the children’s lives into adulthood. This might be worth taping if you won’t be home when Oprah is on. Heck, it might be good enough that your spouse and you should view it together! If it’s *really* good it might be worth sending a copy to your ex or your spouses ex.:) Indy (who already read the book and can’t wait for the interview!)

Response:

I think the data is useless without the proper comparison – which wouldn’t be happy families that stayed together, but rather families that stayed together and should have been divorced. I think her findings are faulty.  How can she determine if the poor results of children are due the divorce rather than the bad relationship between the parents?  Where are the results of children raised by acrimonious parents that didn’t divorce?  How can we quantify the level of acrimony so that we can isolate that from divorce and be able to distinguish if it’s divorce that’s causative or the acrimony? Merrie Indyguy1 <indyg…@aol.com

wrote in message

news:20001019014520.00976.00000407@ng-fo1.aol.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

But regarless of Wallerstien’s feelings on who should divorce and who shouldn’t, the results of her findings on how divorce and the way parents

act

post-divorce stand on their own. Gee, I wonder if the poor results of children of divorce that she followed

for

25 years could be part of the reason she would prefer to see families

stick

together? Indy

Response:

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve posted on here several times over the last few months.  I’m having a hard time feeling a ‘part off.’  No one is really reaching out to me. That’s not a criticism people, just a feeling.  I could use some support.  I’m tied of being the sarcastic know-it-all. Aware1, Arethusa, vegboy, Robert Mass, Kramer, Dreamcatcher, Jill, Mary Beth, Chirmia, to name a few.  I’ ve talked to you in the past.  I could use just a ‘Hello’ from you know. Thanks… i read all your posts.  i don’t know why.  your name, maybe. it’s a good, strong name.  i’ve never thought of you as a sarcastic know-it-all.  i don’t really know where you get that idea. anyway, hello, John.  i hope you have a lovely christmas.  :) denise

God, I sound like I’m whining, don’t I?  Thanks Denise.  I appreciate the compliment very much. — I can’t think of a single movie that couldn’t be improved by a lesbian sex scene.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve posted on here several times over the last few months.  I’m having a hard time feeling a ‘part off.’  No one is really reaching out to me. <Mary Beth reaches out her arm as far as she can That’s not a criticism people, just a feeling.  I could use some support.  I’m tied of being the sarcastic know-it-all. No-one knows it all. If they did, they would be boring. So, what’s up? How can I support you? Would you like to talk about something? Mary Beth

Hi Mary Beth.  I think I love you most of all.  You know what I’m really afraid of?  Remember the movie ‘Awakenings?’  I feel very good now, when I’m not taking handfuls of klonopin.  I’m afraid this is a ‘chemical window’ of happiness that will soon close, and I will go back to being the way I was.  I just refuse to live that way, especially since I know what it fees like now to be happy, confident, and not afraid of bridges, people, or just going outside. I won’t accept life as it was before, and that is scary.  I have been through a couple of med changes.  First effexor, which my pdoc and I ran up to 375 mg. a day.  That made me house bound and I had to hospitalized again.  The a got a new Dr and we did Zoloft, wellbutrin, buspar, inostital, kava kava.  I didn’t like the zoloft, so I am back on just 225 mg of effexor and 300 mg of wellbutrin.  I fell much better when I don’t take the klonopin, but my Dr insists I take 1 .5 in the morning and 1 .5 at night.  Fuck him, I just haven’t been taking it, until this weekend, when I binged on it.  I don’t even like the high.  It’s not like the valiums of hold. PS.  I have 1 year sober (again) on 12/14/99.  AD’s are my only hope, as I have had time before. Thanks for asking.  How about you? — I can’t think of a single movie that couldn’t be improved by a lesbian sex scene.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, I read you.  You have been seen and heard! I’ve posted on here several times over the last few months.  I’m having a hard time feeling a ‘part off.’  No one is really reaching out to me. That’s not a criticism people, just a feeling.  I could use some support.  I’m tied of being the sarcastic know-it-all. Aware1, Arethusa, vegboy, Robert Mass, Kramer, Dreamcatcher, Jill, Mary Beth, Chirmia, to name a few.  I’ ve talked to you in the past.  I could use just a ‘Hello’ from you know. Thanks… — I can’t think of a single movie that couldn’t be improved by a lesbian sex scene.

Thanks Amy.  Sometimes that’s all it takes. — I can’t think of a single movie that couldn’t be improved by a lesbian sex scene.

Response:

No problem, John. Good to see you. —                     _    bear         _.-’ )                (_ . ‘ __                  __^/` _)                .-’_                   (_.’    ’–.                    /_ /`-._/                   (__/ email: The_bearster_at_aol_dot_com

Response:

Today, I fighting through that benzodiazeoine hangover, but I don’t want anymore.  I think I should throw them away.

Nooo, send them to me, I’ll pay the postage even!!! Thanks for asking.  How are you doing?

You’ve got a lot on your plate right now, John. Good for you for keeping your head above water. Other than a nasty persistent infection, I feel great, too. ) — Toto… I don’t think we’re in Kansas anymore.

Response:

Hi Mary Beth.  I think I love you most of all.

Wow, you just earned some serious brownie points there. You know what I’m really afraid of?  Remember the movie ‘Awakenings?’  I feel very good now, when I’m not taking handfuls of klonopin.  I’m afraid this is a ‘chemical window’ of happiness that will soon close, and I will go back to being the way I was.

I do understand. The movie "Awakenings" is my favorite movie as I have talked about in other movie threads here. I think it’s because I relate to it to a point. I have good times and times I just "shut down." As for your meds and your choice not to take the Klonopin. That’s YOUR right and if you feel it isn’t helping, don’t take it. Put your foot down and see what your doctor says. I’ve done that more than once myself. PS.  I have 1 year sober (again) on 12/14/99.  AD’s are my only hope, as I have had time before. Thanks for asking.  How about you?

Congratulations. I am fine, thanks for asking. Mary Beth p’ed and e’d

Response:

Would a hi instead of a hello do, John?  :o) What’s up? How was your day? How are you surviving the holidays? Aware1 — Toto… I don’t think we’re in Kansas anymore.

Yes, it would.  The last couple of week’s have been great.  I stopped taking the klonopin because I though it was working against the effexor/wellbutrin.  I kept them in the fridge and on Friday night, I just thought it would be fun to take a bunch this weekend.  I barely remember writing all these posts. Today, I fighting through that benzodiazeoine hangover, but I don’t want anymore.  I think I should throw them away. This time last year I was in a hotel room with a gun to my head.  On the 14th, I checked (well, I was baker acted) into a hospital and diagnosed with depression.  That gave me effexor.  I’m convinced it saved my like.  I have been feeling great.  So, why the self-destrucive binge on the klonopin? My parents are both in a nursing home in Indiana.  I had to put both of there there last November. I write computer software.  I am a genius.  Wily coyote, super genius. I’m good at work.  The rest of my life is a confusing jumble of emotional chaos. Thanks for asking.  How are you doing? — I can’t think of a single movie that couldn’t be improved by a lesbian sex scene.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello John.  I’m not sure why you feel left out or isolated, but I can understand those feelings. Hope you’re feeling better soon. best wishes, —                     _    bear         _.-’ )                (_ . ‘ __                  __^/` _)                .-’_                   (_.’    ’–.                    /_ /`-._/                   (__/ email: The_bearster_at_aol_dot_com That was nice.  Sort of like a form letter, but a nice effort. — ***** Perhaps you could post a description of what you expect to see in a "reaching out" post. —                     _    bear         _.-’ )                (_ . ‘ __                  __^/` _)                .-’_                   (_.’    ’–.                    /_ /`-._/                   (__/ email: The_bearster_at_aol_dot_com

Thanks Bear.  That was perfectly OK.  Sorry for being a smart-ass. Love your Bear… — I can’t think of a single movie that couldn’t be improved by a lesbian sex scene.

Response:

Hello, I read you.  You have been seen and heard! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve posted on here several times over the last few months.  I’m having a hard time feeling a ‘part off.’  No one is really reaching out to me. That’s not a criticism people, just a feeling.  I could use some support.  I’m tied of being the sarcastic know-it-all. Aware1, Arethusa, vegboy, Robert Mass, Kramer, Dreamcatcher, Jill, Mary Beth, Chirmia, to name a few.  I’ ve talked to you in the past.  I could use just a ‘Hello’ from you know. Thanks… — I can’t think of a single movie that couldn’t be improved by a lesbian sex scene.

Response:

I’ve posted on here several times over the last few months.  I’m having a hard time feeling a ‘part off.’  No one is really reaching out to me.

<Mary Beth reaches out her arm as far as she can That’s not a criticism people, just a feeling.  I could use some support.  I’m tied of being the sarcastic know-it-all.

No-one knows it all. If they did, they would be boring. So, what’s up? How can I support you? Would you like to talk about something? Mary Beth

Response:

Would a hi instead of a hello do, John?  :o) What’s up? How was your day? How are you surviving the holidays? Aware1 — Toto… I don’t think we’re in Kansas anymore.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello John.  I’m not sure why you feel left out or isolated, but I can understand those feelings. Hope you’re feeling better soon. best wishes, —                     _    bear         _.-’ )                (_ . ‘ __                  __^/` _)                .-’_                   (_.’    ’–.                    /_ /`-._/                   (__/ email: The_bearster_at_aol_dot_com That was nice.  Sort of like a form letter, but a nice effort. —

***** Perhaps you could post a description of what you expect to see in a "reaching out" post. —                     _    bear         _.-’ )                (_ . ‘ __                  __^/` _)                .-’_                   (_.’    ’–.                    /_ /`-._/                   (__/ email: The_bearster_at_aol_dot_com

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello John.  I’m not sure why you feel left out or isolated, but I can understand those feelings. Hope you’re feeling better soon. best wishes, —                     _    bear         _.-’ )                (_ . ‘ __                  __^/` _)                .-’_                   (_.’    ’–.                    /_ /`-._/                   (__/ email: The_bearster_at_aol_dot_com

That was nice.  Sort of like a form letter, but a nice effort. — I can’t think of a single movie that couldn’t be improved by a lesbian sex scene.

Response:

Hello John.  I’m not sure why you feel left out or isolated, but I can understand those feelings. Hope you’re feeling better soon. best wishes, —                     _    bear         _.-’ )                (_ . ‘ __                  __^/` _)                .-’_                   (_.’    ’–.                    /_ /`-._/                   (__/ email: The_bearster_at_aol_dot_com

Response:

I’ve posted on here several times over the last few months.  I’m having a hard time feeling a ‘part off.’  No one is really reaching out to me. That’s not a criticism people, just a feeling.  I could use some support.  I’m tied of being the sarcastic know-it-all. Aware1, Arethusa, vegboy, Robert Mass, Kramer, Dreamcatcher, Jill, Mary Beth, Chirmia, to name a few.  I’ ve talked to you in the past.  I could use just a ‘Hello’ from you know. Thanks… — I can’t think of a single movie that couldn’t be improved by a lesbian sex scene.

Response:

Question:

I have never experienced any sedation or gotten any "buzz" from Xanax, in fact it actually energizes me without making me "speedy", if that makes sense.

It does make sense, and that happens for me at low doses as well. How much have you taken at a time? I am totally screwed up with sleep and energy due to the fact that I work full time night shift and then watch my highly hyperactive toddler all day until 4 or 5 when my eldest daughter comes home to help. So I am always tired and yet cannot fall asleep..frustrating!

You have my sympathies! I often have trouble falling asleep due to pain, and I have problems with waking up in the middle of the night. I’m convinced this has had a deleterious effect on my mental functioning. :-/ -elizabeth

Response:

I have never experienced any sedation or gotten any "buzz" from Xanax, in fact it actually energizes me without making me "speedy", if that makes sense. It does make sense, and that happens for me at low doses as well. How much have you taken at a time?

  In the middle of an extreme panic attack I have once or twice taken 3 mgs at a time..and have taken 2 mgs at once for slightly less severe but still awful ones..Now though I never take more than 1mg at a time, I dont need to with the other meds, in fact dont take any sometimes cause I just plain old forget. May -elizabeth

– "Believe me! The secret of reaping the greatest fruitfulness and the greatest enjoyment from life is to live dangerously!"      -                Nietzsche

Response:

Hi Diana,     If you have never seen a p-doc yet, who prescribed the meds? 25mg is a good starting dose for zoloft, this should keep the side affects bearable. Zoloft taken daily and xanax whenever needed has worked very well for me, but then again YMMV.  The p-doc you are going to see  should be very caring and understanding towards your feelings. One that could try to understand what it is like to feel the way we do. I know mine does. I wish you the best of luck and hope the zoloft works for you. Please keep us posted. steve

Response:

Hello everyone haven’t posted lately but i am back, I finally made a appt with a psych doc today, my appointment if for next tuesday this is the first time for me, alittle nervous, can anyone give me any suggestions on what to look for with her to make sure she is the right one for me?  been having PA for 9 years now and finally being medicated for it .05mg of xanax and 25mg of zoloft is that a good combo? Thanks, Diana

Response:

The med combo is pretty standard, however that Zoloft dose is probably too low for any therapeutic benefit…although with all of the SSRI’s you must increase the dose gradually…and you can anticipate some increase in symptoms while you are going on any meds.  SSRI’s are more popular these days than TCA’s  because they effect fewer systems (less side effects) and are more site specific.  Xanax is a standard med to be used as needed., usually in combo with another med… however, I’ve been doing a lot of reading about a rebound effect … something I experience always, so I stopped.  In terms of your shrink… a good dr. should educate you about the disorder in addition to writing scripts for meds. Find out what percentage of her practice is anxiety patients.  Also, check out the Anxiety Disorder Assoc. web site for more ideas on getting a good shrink: www.adaa.org  GOOD LUCK!!  Keep us posted on the outcome.

Response:

Steve, thanks for responding my family doc got me started on the meds and referred me to the psych doc.

Response:

Hello everyone haven’t posted lately but i am back, I finally made a appt with a psych doc today, my appointment if for next tuesday this is the first time for me, alittle nervous, can anyone give me any suggestions on what to look for with her to make sure she is the right one for me?  been having PA for 9 years now and finally being medicated for it .05mg of xanax and 25mg of zoloft is that a good combo?

Zoloft (SSRI-antidepresant) and Xanax (benzo) make a good combo although our reactions to meds are very personal. One of the things to find out is whether your pdoc is a *benzophobe* (one who doesn’t prescribe benzos because of the alleged *addcition* problem). If she is, she’s not the right one for you. Also you should feel at ease with her. You should be listened to and treated like a responsible adult. You should be able to work on treatment together rather than the doc just telling you what to do. She should explain what she prescribes and proposes and why and then you should *agree* on what’s the right course to take. Philip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks, Diana

Response:

Hi Diana, The only words of advice I can give are not medicine -related. Don’t go into your appointment believing that your doctor can wave a magic wand, say all the right things and heal you. Yes, you can be healed but you will have to work hard. Also, do a lot of reading and decide what sort of therapy will work for you. (If I have to talk about my childhood one more time, I will scream!) Also, if you don’t feel comfortable with your doctor, say so Finally, if you trust your doctor, follow his/her advice. I know how big a step it is to go to a pdoc….good for you! You’re one step closer to feeling better.  Good luck. Let us know how it goes. Charley – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello everyone haven’t posted lately but i am back, I finally made a appt with a psych doc today, my appointment if for next tuesday this is the first time for me, alittle nervous, can anyone give me any suggestions on what to look for with her to make sure she is the right one for me?  been having PA for 9 years now and finally being medicated for it .05mg of xanax and 25mg of zoloft is that a good combo? Thanks, Diana

Response:

Hey Diana!!  I’m on Zoloft, 100 mgs., and Xanax .25 mgs. as needed.  Be careful with the Zoloft…I didn’t have many side effects but it definitely increased my panic attacks in the beginning.  Hang in there…Zoloft has worked great for me.  I still have a few "muted" PAs but I can handle them much better now.  And the fact that I can drive to and from work and even make it to stores (close to home) by myself is amazing!!  I’m going up to 125 mgs. of Zoloft starting tomorrow on the advice of my pdoc…good luck and keep us all posted. Melissa

Response:

Hi, I take only zoloft 50 mgs. And it works well for me. Except around pms time when anxiety is high anyway. I feel some symtoms but they are very mild. It took 4 weeks to see the difference so give it awhile to work, the longer the better I feel.

Response:

One of the things to find out is whether your pdoc is a *benzophobe* (one who doesn’t prescribe benzos because of the alleged *addcition* problem). If she is, she’s not the right one for you.

I second this…even if I didn’t take benzos, I’d avoid benzophobic doctors just on principle! As everybody has said, Zoloft and Xanax is a good combination for panic disorder. 25mg is a starting dose of Zoloft, not a therapeutic dose; around 50mg, many people start to get some benefit, 100 is often enough, 200 is the high end (though you *can* go higher, this is the "official" recommended maximum). Doses of benzos are pretty individualized – are you taking it "as needed," or on some schedule? When I was using it for panic attacks, I needed 2mg to stop them (I didn’t take it all the time, just when I felt an attack coming on), but that’s just me. I actually don’t know how much other people use for this purpose – anyone? -elizabeth

Response:

Xanax is a standard med to be used as needed., usually in combo with another med… however, I’ve been doing a lot of reading about a rebound effect … something I experience always, so I stopped.

I’ve got a question about this: how many times a day were you taking it? I think that Xanax does not last equally long for everyone, so some people can get by taking twice a day but others need it four times a day. -elizabeth

Response:

Xanax is a standard med to be used as needed., usually in combo with another med… however, I’ve been doing a lot of reading about a rebound effect … something I experience always, so I stopped. I’ve got a question about this: how many times a day were you taking it? I think that Xanax does not last equally long for everyone, so some people can get by taking twice a day but others need it four times a day. -elizabeth

 Personally I had trouble taking it PRN because my pas were often OOB (as in while sleeping or nothing at all) although after enough of them I developed pretty much a state of constant anticipatory anxiety ..I could literally think myself into a panic attack trying to figure out how to avoid them..enter agoraphobia..Anyhow when I finally got Xanax I found if I had a PA it would generally take me 1.5-2 mgs to stop it..and I had little success with twice a day dosage,so I decided to stop the PRN route, as that is almost sure to leave anyone like myself with lots of hours of anxiety, as Xanax lasts 4 to 5 hrs at most for me. I now take it regularly .05 mg to 1 mg every four hours while awake, and if I rememeber..I do skip doses lots of times without even noticing it since my other two meds are helping a good deal too I think. But I can’t imagine twice a day being a very good xanax dosing..I would think 3 times at least given its short action. I have had almost no…nada..zero PAs for 6 weeks or more *knock on wood*, and my anxiety level is low enough to live with..I am sorry I was talked out of Xanax for so long because its tailor made for me and allows me to live, like a ..well not normal..but like a person anyhow ;- May — "Believe me! The secret of reaping the greatest fruitfulness and the greatest enjoyment from life is to live dangerously!"      -                Nietzsche

Response:

Personally I had trouble taking it PRN because my pas were often OOB (as in while sleeping or nothing at all) although after enough of them I developed pretty much a state of constant anticipatory anxiety

I pretty much *exclusively* had OOTB panic attacks; I can only think of one instance in which there’s been an apparent trigger (it was a couple months ago – anxiety about school, actually). However, I experience an aura that predicts panic pretty consistently. I’ve never had one in my sleep, but then again, I don’t sleep much. :-} Anyhow when I finally got Xanax I found if I had a PA it would generally take me 1.5-2 mgs to stop it..and I had little success with twice a day dosage,so I decided to stop the PRN route, as that is almost sure to leave anyone like myself with lots of hours of anxiety, as Xanax lasts 4 to 5 hrs at most for me.

Yowsers. It lasts a lot longer than that for me: if I take a large enough dose to be sedating, I can actually get a full night’s sleep (7-8 hours). Most people do need to take it at least 3 times a day, though. I now take it regularly .05 mg to 1 mg every four hours while awake, and if I rememeber..I do skip doses lots of times without even noticing it since my other two meds are helping a good deal too I think.

Every 4 hours? Wow. Do you wake up in the morning feeling cruddy? When I tried taking Buprenex by itself (without a regular antidepressant), I found that I would get nasty rebound depression if I missed a dose. I think that sort of thing (short-acting) is better if you have an antidepressant (or two to smooth things out. (Now I’m just using the Buprenex as a p.r.n.) -elizabeth

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Personally I had trouble taking it PRN because my pas were often OOB (as in while sleeping or nothing at all) although after enough of them I developed pretty much a state of constant anticipatory anxiety I pretty much *exclusively* had OOTB panic attacks; I can only think of one instance in which there’s been an apparent trigger (it was a couple months ago – anxiety about school, actually). However, I experience an aura that predicts panic pretty consistently. I’ve never had one in my sleep, but then again, I don’t sleep much. :-} Anyhow when I finally got Xanax I found if I had a PA it would generally take me 1.5-2 mgs to stop it..and I had little success with twice a day dosage,so I decided to stop the PRN route, as that is almost sure to leave anyone like myself with lots of hours of anxiety, as Xanax lasts 4 to 5 hrs at most for me. Yowsers. It lasts a lot longer than that for me: if I take a large enough dose to be sedating, I can actually get a full night’s sleep (7-8 hours).

 I have never experienced any sedation or gotten any "buzz" from Xanax, in fact it actually energizes me without making me "speedy", if that makes sense. I had awful drowsiness on Klonopin that never went any and I was not even on a full therapeutic dosage any of the three times I took it. I still do not sleep well and have Ambien that I take on occasion and find somewhat helpful, but If I take it more than two days in a row it seems to lose its effectiveness for me. I am totally screwed up with sleep and energy due to the fact that I work full time night shift and then watch my highly hyperactive toddler all day until 4 or 5 when my eldest daughter comes home to help. So I am always tired and yet cannot fall asleep..frustrating!  Most people do need to take it at least 3 times a day, though. I now take it regularly .05 mg to 1 mg every four hours while awake, and if I rememeber..I do skip doses lots of times without even noticing it since my other two meds are helping a good deal too I think. Every 4 hours? Wow. Do you wake up in the morning feeling cruddy?

I wake up feeling better than I ever have in my life; I no longer sleep through the alarm or take an hour to drag my butt out of it. As I said though (I think) I am also on Pamelor 50mgs and 20mgs of Prozac and I no longer necessarily take xanax every four hours..On days off at home I have forgotten to take any at all even, and then there are days where I know I am going to be better off to take it every 4 hours  before I *need* it after six…I have never had any aura at all for my OOB attacks and over the years I have accumulated a ton of triggers that I am now working on overcoming..the big one so far was not only to ride comfortably in a car but to drive myself..Now that the Pamelor/Prozac is kicking in, I am taking the xanax pretty much prn..I dont generally take more than 2 mgs total on any day now, and as I say I have never felt more competent or alive in my life =) When I tried taking Buprenex by itself (without a regular antidepressant), I found that I would get nasty rebound depression if I missed a dose. I think that sort of thing (short-acting) is better if you have an antidepressant (or two to smooth things out. (Now I’m just using the Buprenex as a p.r.n.) -elizabeth

May — "Believe me! The secret of reaping the greatest fruitfulness and the greatest enjoyment from life is to live dangerously!"      -                Nietzsche

Response:

Question:

I’m wondering if anyone else has had my experience or has any advice. I’ve tried many different AD’s and none of them seems to work.  I’ve tried Prozac, twice, the second time at 40 mg/day; Elavil; Buspar (anti-anxiety drug); a couple of tri-cyclics which gave me too many side effects (Imiprimane and Desipramine [sp?]); Trazodone; and St. John’s  Wort.  I’ve tried each of these for a good amount of time, 2 or more months, except the side-effect ones, which I stopped after a few days because of the side effects. The only thing that ever really helps me is therapy and talking to friends.  I talked to an experienced psychiatrist about this once and he said that some people just don’t respond to AD’s.  I have been extremely annoyed at this whole process during the 2-3 years I’ve been involved in trying all these things.  I haven’t had any insurance and the costs, to say the least, have been excessive.  At the dosage I was on, Prozac and Buspar were $120 per month each!  Plus doctor visit charges.  The thing that annoys me is that I wish I had known that none of them would work BEFORE I spent all that money and time and effort. This also disturbs me when I think about all the other people out there who are desperately trying AD’s to help themselves.  Most of them are helped by AD’s, but some aren’t (I couldn’t be the only one, could I?).  Because the whole process of finding an AD for a patient is so hit-and-miss ("Well, we don’t know if this will help you, but try it and see" is something I’ve heard TOO MANY TIMES), one can easily end up spending lots of money before the doctors realize that nothing is going to work. One thing about my history that may be different from many people’s is that I’ve been depressed most of my life, since the age of 9, because of severe early childhood abuse.  This may mean that my depression is more post-traumatic stress than biochemical.  I don’t know much about the theory of biochemistry causing depression, so I may be getting this wrong, I don’t know. One side note about the St. John’s Wort:  at least it was cheap!  And it did feel good to know I was taking something more natural and less likely to cause negative side effects. Any comments, anyone? –Carol

Response:

Carol, What dosage of SJW did you take? I have found that 5 or 6 300 mg standard capsules morning and evening is what I need. That is 3600 mg per day. I have no side effects from that dosage. I also found that some brands just don’t work. (the Pharmasave house brand, in particular) I use Webber (it’s the cheapest and comes bundled with gincko or a stress herb) If you wish to try larger doses you should build up over two or three days at least. I think it would be safe to go as far as 6000 mg per day if necessary, from what I have read, although I have never needed to go that high. I tried Zoloft and didn’t like the side effects. Peter B. Legere – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m wondering if anyone else has had my experience or has any advice. One side note about the St. John’s Wort:  at least it was cheap!  And it did feel good to know I was taking something more natural and less likely to cause negative side effects. Any comments, anyone? –Carol

Response:

Dear Carol: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve tried many different AD’s and none of them seems to work.  I’ve tried Prozac, twice, the second time at 40 mg/day; Elavil; Buspar (anti-anxiety drug); a couple of tri-cyclics which gave me too many side effects (Imiprimane and Desipramine [sp?]); Trazodone; and St. John’s  Wort.  I’ve tried each of these for a good amount of time, 2 or more months, except the side-effect ones, which I stopped after a few days because of the side effects. The only thing that ever really helps me is therapy and talking to friends.  I talked to an experienced psychiatrist about this once and he said that some people just don’t respond to AD’s.  I have been extremely annoyed at this whole process during the 2-3 years I’ve been involved in trying all these things.  I haven’t had any insurance and the costs, to say the least, have been excessive.  At the dosage I was on, Prozac and Buspar were $120 per month each!  Plus doctor visit charges.  The thing that annoys me is that I wish I had known that none of them would work BEFORE I spent all that money and time and effort.

It’s unfortunate, but, at the current state of the art, there’s no way to predict the likely success or failure of meds on any one individual nor, for sure, which one, if any, will work.  There’s a lot more success with ‘which one’ than ‘whether any’.  There’s considerable research ongoing in both, and other areas, of dealing with clinical depression. While there are meds you’ve not tried and combinations thereof, it’s understandable that you’d be reluctant to spend more money in this way. Somewhere between 20% and 25% of depressives don’t respond to the current antidepressants at all.  Often those who want to give up on a particular antidepressant because of some side effects, if persuaded to stick it out, find the side effects diminish and the drug take effect properly.  Of those depressives refractory to medication, about half respond positively to ECT. This also disturbs me when I think about all the other people out there who are desperately trying AD’s to help themselves.  Most of them are helped by AD’s, but some aren’t (I couldn’t be the only one, could I?).  Because the whole process of finding an AD for a patient is so hit-and-miss ("Well, we don’t know if this will help you, but try it and see" is something I’ve heard TOO MANY TIMES), one can easily end up spending lots of money before the doctors realize that nothing is going to work.

That is, unfortunately, the case.  I don’t think it’s anyone’s fault, just that our knowledge isn’t yet sufficiently great to avoid this. The downside of not trying, of course, is depression and its side effects. If one tries, more than 80% of the time appropriate treatment works. One thing about my history that may be different from many people’s is that I’ve been depressed most of my life, since the age of 9, because of severe early childhood abuse.  This may mean that my depression is more post-traumatic stress than biochemical.  I don’t know much about the theory of biochemistry causing depression, so I may be getting this wrong, I don’t know.

While you may have it right, that shouldn’t seriously affect the choice of meds although it would raise the importance of talk therapy as well. One side note about the St. John’s Wort:  at least it was cheap!  And it did feel good to know I was taking something more natural and less likely to cause negative side effects.

This business of ‘natural’ is, IMHO, highly over rated. There have been no good clinical trials of St. John’s Wort in this country.  The only ones of which I’m aware were in Germany and have been challenged on many counts.  It’s method of action is unclear and there have been far more reports of failure than of success with it here.  When one purchases it one cannot be sure, from purchase to purchase, of the amount of active ingredient one is getting.  Not only that, optimal dosages have yet to be determined. Any comments, anyone?

If you were to ask what I’d do now, if I were you, I suspect that, since I don’t know where you are located and thus can’t be more specific, I’d call the nearest _teaching_ hospital and ask for a referral to a really good psychopharmacologist (biopsychiatrist).  I’d lay out the story in as much detail as possible for hir and see what (s)he says. Best of luck, Peter

[ Nafdi 1K ]

The National Foundation for Depressive Illness, Inc. maintains "800" lines which, presently through a recorded message, provide callers with the symptoms of depression and manic depression and inform them of how to receive a packet of additional information from NAFDI.  This additional information includes a referral list, by state, of doctors and support groups as well as a bibliography, our brochure and additional relevant articles.  The number to call, toll-free, is 1-800-245-4306. If you are familiar with the symptoms of depression and manic depression and prefer not to listen to the recording, you may write to us, The National Foundation for Depressive Illness, Inc. (or NAFDI) at Post Office Box 2257, New York, NY 10116-2257 and request the information.  Please enclose a self-addressed envelope of business size or larger with $1.01 of U.S. postage affixed (for U.S. addresses).  As we are a not-for-profit organization, if you can afford it, please enclose a contribution of $5 or more.  If you can’t afford that, please let us know and we’ll be happy to send you exactly the same material at no charge. You may also visit us at our web page <http://www.depression.org. In any case, we wish you good luck!

Response:

Hi Are you located in a large city?  I go to a non-for-profit organization of doctors and therapists and the costs are much less.  Maybe there’s one listed in your phone book. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Carol, What dosage of SJW did you take? I have found that 5 or 6 300 mg standard capsules morning and evening is what I need. That is 3600 mg per day. I have no side effects from that dosage. I also found that some brands just don’t work. (the Pharmasave house brand, in particular) I use Webber (it’s the cheapest and comes bundled with gincko or a stress herb) If you wish to try larger doses you should build up over two or three days at least. I think it would be safe to go as far as 6000 mg per day if necessary, from what I have read, although I have never needed to go that high. I tried Zoloft and didn’t like the side effects. Peter B. Legere I’m wondering if anyone else has had my experience or has any advice. One side note about the St. John’s Wort:  at least it was cheap!  And it did feel good to know I was taking something more natural and less likely to cause negative side effects. Any comments, anyone? –Carol

Response:

Hi, I am new to this group. I started taking AD’s about 4 months ago. I take 1000mg  of luvox and have been lucky with the side effects, only one I have that bothers me a little is the reduced libido <s Anyway I went back to my dr and told him I didn’t think they were helping so he said well try going off them and see what happens, well apparently they were working : )  So I went back on. Then I read about St. JW and tried that with the Luvox then read you shouldn’t take both, so went off luvox and am presently just taking sjw 1000mg a day and so far its been better than taking nothing, but was wondering about dosage and such, and whether anyone out there takes both the sjw and the  ad drugs together. I had a minor breakdown the other day and ended up on the floor bawling my eyes out and finally saying out loud that I need help. This was after my 3 kids were gone all weekend and home again for around 2 hours and I couldn’t take it, I totally lost it. So I finally called a family services place that will send someone to talk to you and you kids etc., and just making the call I actually felt better than I had in ages. Oops went a little off the track…. <s What I am wondering is, if any one has any information about sjw and combining it with regular ad drugs and if they have had any luck with just the sjw etc…..or maybe I should just try a different ad drug, im not sure. This is all very new to me although in retrospect its been there quite some time. If the info on SJW is redundant feel free to email me directly. Thank you for any info : ) Lorraine – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Carol, What dosage of SJW did you take? I have found that 5 or 6 300 mg standard capsules morning and evening is what I need. That is 3600 mg per day. I have no side effects from that dosage.

Response:

I’m wondering if anyone else has had my experience or has any advice. I’ve tried many different AD’s and none of them seems to work.  I’ve <snip Any comments, anyone? –Carol

Well…..I’ve tried eight AD’s …..First was zoloft..did that for 8 months, and for a time added trazodone along with it.  It worked so-so…. Next was paxil…did that for about 3 months.  I didn’t have energy to do much of anything.  The withdrawl was 2 weeks of misery.   Next I went without anything for about 2 months.  Signed up for a 10 week self esteem class which used a workbook on Cognitive Behavioral Therapy.  I felt worse about myself at the end than I did when I started.   Then I tried prozac for 4 months….helped some (any improvement was better than I was).  Started having significant side effects after the dose went beyond 50mg.  Started feeling more depressed as the dose increased. Started effexor…almost stopped it cuz I felt so yucky, but I think it was due to coming off the prozac.  Effexor worked real well for me for about 15 months. **SOAP BOX TIME** I really don’t think that doctors who work in the field of prescribing antidepressant medications fully appreciate how powerful these drugs are, and how strongly they affect the body.  My doctor, for instance, tends to believe that you can just taper a person (me) off one drug for a week or so and add a new drug at the same time or immediately thereafter, and everything will be hunky dory.  WRONG!!!!  As far as I am concerned, there is always some sort of withdrawl the body goes through when stopping one antidepressant, even if you start another at the same time.  I have gone through this a number of times, and I hope I have been instrumental in helping my doctor learn more about this.  Still, there is that transition period where my life sucks even more when I have changed meds. **END OF SOAP BOX** anyway, coming off the prozac made it seem like the effexor was giving me a bad reaction at first, but I hung in and after about a week things were ok.   After about 15 months, I was feeling sort of down, more depressed than I had been in a while.  I was also feeling "chemicalized" and kind of wanted to stop.  My pdoc was gonna have me start serzone, but I tapered off the effexor (again with a two week withdrawl). So, I then went 3 months taking St. John’s Wort.  It helped some, but I gradually sank down badly again, and when work took a stressful turn, I went down fast. Then I took serzone for 4 months.  It is supposed to make most people a little drowsy, but it had the opposite effect on me.  I felt wired.  It leveled out a bit over time, but during this period I did not sleep very soundly.  It was just moderately effective for the depression. At the beginning of february I started remeron.  Again, in changing meds, I had the usual nausea and stuff associated with withdrawl, but man o man that remeron!! It was like Night of the Living Dead!!  I slept HARD for the 3 weeks I took that stuff.  Supposedly the higher the dose, the more that symptom goes away, but I was still a space cadet even after increasing the dose. So I practically begged my pdoc to let me go back on effexor, which I started again this week.  Right now I’m going through the remeron withdrawls, nausea, diarhea and such, but I feel human again. **THEORY** I believe in my case, having taken antidepressants off and on now for over 3 years, that whatever my depression is, drugs only help it to a moderate degree.  It has been my experience that continually increasing the dosage yields diminishing returns.  It does appear, at least at this time in my life, that I need the help of the antidepressants to handle life.  I am working in other ways on "handling life," and perhaps someday I will obtain some results that will make it unnecessary to take antidepressants. I really don’t know.   But, I think I do best if I take the lowest dose that gives any decent effect. And, I am beginning to believe that my system needs a periodic chemical free period.  So my plan at this point is to take the lowest dose of effexor that will stabilize my mood, which from past experience I think is either 150mg or 225mg.  I think that I will also try to go about a month a year chemical free. I guess to summarize, at least maybe to summarize to myself, it takes a long period of trial and error to find out what works and what doesnt.  The hard part is to somehow hang in there while going through all the ups and downs. Best wishes, Patrick *** To reply by email, remove the zzz from my email address ***

Response:

Patrick, Sounds to me that you are playing Russin Rolette. If you had Diabetis, would you go off your insulin for a month every year? Biocemical depression, is a medical condition. The medication change the chemicals in you brain. You only fall deeper each time you start to treat yourself instead of following your pdoc’s advice.                    Please talk to your doc, about your conserns.                                     Penny – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m wondering if anyone else has had my experience or has any advice. I’ve tried many different AD’s and none of them seems to work.  I’ve <snip Any comments, anyone? –Carol Well…..I’ve tried eight AD’s …..First was zoloft..did that for 8 months, and for a time added trazodone along with it.  It worked so-so…. Next was paxil…did that for about 3 months.  I didn’t have energy to do much of anything.  The withdrawl was 2 weeks of misery.   Next I went without anything for about 2 months.  Signed up for a 10 week self esteem class which used a workbook on Cognitive Behavioral Therapy.  I felt worse about myself at the end than I did when I started.   Then I tried prozac for 4 months….helped some (any improvement was better than I was).  Started having significant side effects after the dose went beyond 50mg.  Started feeling more depressed as the dose increased. Started effexor…almost stopped it cuz I felt so yucky, but I think it was due to coming off the prozac.  Effexor worked real well for me for about 15 months. **SOAP BOX TIME** I really don’t think that doctors who work in the field of prescribing antidepressant medications fully appreciate how powerful these drugs are, and how strongly they affect the body.  My doctor, for instance, tends to believe that you can just taper a person (me) off one drug for a week or so and add a new drug at the same time or immediately thereafter, and everything will be hunky dory.  WRONG!!!!  As far as I am concerned, there is always some sort of withdrawl the body goes through when stopping one antidepressant, even if you start another at the same time.  I have gone through this a number of times, and I hope I have been instrumental in helping my doctor learn more about this.  Still, there is that transition period where my life sucks even more when I have changed meds. **END OF SOAP BOX** anyway, coming off the prozac made it seem like the effexor was giving me a bad reaction at first, but I hung in and after about a week things were ok.   After about 15 months, I was feeling sort of down, more depressed than I had been in a while.  I was also feeling "chemicalized" and kind of wanted to stop.  My pdoc was gonna have me start serzone, but I tapered off the effexor (again with a two week withdrawl). So, I then went 3 months taking St. John’s Wort.  It helped some, but I gradually sank down badly again, and when work took a stressful turn, I went down fast. Then I took serzone for 4 months.  It is supposed to make most people a little drowsy, but it had the opposite effect on me.  I felt wired.  It leveled out a bit over time, but during this period I did not sleep very soundly.  It was just moderately effective for the depression. At the beginning of february I started remeron.  Again, in changing meds, I had the usual nausea and stuff associated with withdrawl, but man o man that remeron!! It was like Night of the Living Dead!!  I slept HARD for the 3 weeks I took that stuff.  Supposedly the higher the dose, the more that symptom goes away, but I was still a space cadet even after increasing the dose. So I practically begged my pdoc to let me go back on effexor, which I started again this week.  Right now I’m going through the remeron withdrawls, nausea, diarhea and such, but I feel human again. **THEORY** I believe in my case, having taken antidepressants off and on now for over 3 years, that whatever my depression is, drugs only help it to a moderate degree.  It has been my experience that continually increasing the dosage yields diminishing returns.  It does appear, at least at this time in my life, that I need the help of the antidepressants to handle life.  I am working in other ways on "handling life," and perhaps someday I will obtain some results that will make it unnecessary to take antidepressants. I really don’t know.   But, I think I do best if I take the lowest dose that gives any decent effect. And, I am beginning to believe that my system needs a periodic chemical free period.  So my plan at this point is to take the lowest dose of effexor that will stabilize my mood, which from past experience I think is either 150mg or 225mg.  I think that I will also try to go about a month a year chemical free. I guess to summarize, at least maybe to summarize to myself, it takes a long period of trial and error to find out what works and what doesnt.  The hard part is to somehow hang in there while going through all the ups and downs. Best wishes, Patrick *** To reply by email, remove the zzz from my email address ***

Response:

What happened with the prozac? SSRIs (Selective Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitors) "Extract" Selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors, or SSRIs, are newer antidepressants which often treat the symptoms of depression more effectively than TCAs and for many people, produce less troublesome side effects. Besides treating depression, SSRIs are sometimes used to treat the symptoms of obsessive-compulsive disorder. Luvox

Question:

ya gotta hang in there with it!     Why are they so sure that the Effexor is possibly causing the manic reaction??  Why couldn’t it be one of the other drugs in the combination? (You’d said you were on more than one thing, right?)   Maybe you could just….um…take a little LESS of the Effexor, rather than stopping it altogether??    Don’t give up!   Don’t despair!  Hang in there!   {{{{{JENNY}}}}} — Connie

Response:

Jenny, Stay very very very close to us right now. Check in every 15 minutes if you want. Consider them YOUR 15 minute checks instead of theirs. Make us your locked ward. We love you dearly. We’ll all join hands and make a wall around you, your own living locked ward. Locked in our hearts anyway.  Breathe in, breathe out, let the minutes pass, you can get thru this. E-mail me every 5 minutes if you want, I’m sure there’s a line of ppl willing to be accessible to you during the hours I don’t have a computer. You can do this, it’s not as overwhelming as it feels, it’s a trick, trying to get you to panic and trip. Such a *smart* girl you are to ask for our help, we can tell you the truth… it IS illusory, you can get thru this. You can get to the other side, and look back and see it for what it is now… the past, something hard you got thru. Nobody could serve up the generous portions of love and truth that you give us…and not have the capacity to serve some to herself. We’ll spoonfeed you love and support if you need it, because we love you, and some of us (blush) have been where you are now, and know what we’re talking about.You recently sent me a massage about my inability to believe someon’e claims that it’s possible to eat and not go nuts.You told me to trust it was the truth b/c you had experienced it yourself. I’m sending you this message to tell you some of the same. You can get thru this, I have experienced that, and can tell you it’s true. Don’t give up.   -Sin Eater

Response:

I need some advice or at least some encouragement.  Please, please, could I have some responses, dearest friends — all it has to be is "hang in there" and "{hug}" — just PLEASE, say something to me.  I’m very confused….

As a former ruling member of the royal family of anxiety disorder, I definitely understand how you are feeling. (I’ve since abdicated my crown, but I was lucky.) What if you work out a deal with your therapist? Since part of the ed is needing to feel like you have control (and since you obviously don’t feel like you do), perhaps you can make some sort of arrangement which will help you to get off this med (if that’s what’s appropriate for you) but to help you feel like you have some options if you start feeling bad again. Jenny, I don’t know you *really* well…I mean, our contact has been limited to email exchange (and a few notes, right? =-) ) but you haven’t sounded like yourself in the last few posts I’ve read. This may *feel* better than it did before, but it might not be a great way to spend the rest of your life. Anyway, I want you to feel good and have a great life. You need to do what’s right for you. Maybe you can work out some sort of agreement with your therapist which will be acceptible to you both. Please write me if you need some hand-holding. Aside from being a hulktress, I’m also a pretty good listener. =-) Patti

Response:

jenny w. i keep searching for something to say that will just cheer you up, cheer you on, lessen the struggles and all that.  But i guess i cannot do that.  I know i cannot.  sigh.  but i wanted you to know i will be thinking of you.  i can only imagine how hard things are….meds, drs, ed, court, exes….sigh… and i just want you to know i think you are one of the most wonderful assets to this group.  i  mean, you have this quirky crazy (in a good way) manner of responding here and i think you are wonderful.  i dont know what else to say, but do know that you are being thought of. krista

Response:

I read your post and I wished I could just be there for you.  I wish there was a way for me to take it all away.  SO I closed my eyes and I tried to send you vibes.  Nice vibes of a good world.  Where things where o.k. and you know what… part of it came true.  There is some good out there as impossible as it may seem.  The spring rain, children’s laughter, a sweet little puppy.  There is stuff out there.  Here(I hope you are not allergic to puppies) can you feel the puppy.  Close your eyes and picture it.  It has a soft fur coat.  Cute little eyes.  I playful energy.  Hey.. it is licking you.  It loves you and thinks you are wonderful.  Just like that innocent little puppy there are other things out there that are good.  I hope some of it crosses your path soon.  But if it just doesn’t seem to be happening.  Be strong.  Jenny..you are an inspiration.  Your power to overcome what you have overcome is amazing.   There is a reason for that.  There is a plan.  SO maybe you have had to run into some really shitty stuff.  Maybe things keep running into you.   But you have survived and have been strong and you are fighting.  Wow you are amazing.  Keep going Jenny.  Keep going.  I am cheering you on 100%. I will be thinking about you. Here is a ton of hugs and stenghth vibes.          ((((((((((((((((((((JENNY)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))                                 Love and peace, Heather  

Response:

ok, bear of very little brain, here goes: (((((((((((((((((((((JENNY)))))))))))))))))))))))) (((((((((((((((((((((JENNY)))))))))))))))))))))))) (((((((((((((((((((((JENNY))))))))))))))))))))))))                     \ ///                      O   O                        /                        ..                      ^    ^                       __/ (that’s me giving you a demonic grin and lots o’cyber hugs!) love, moonbeam — For more information about this service, send e-mail to:

Response:

Jenny, Stay very very very close to us right now. Check in every 15 minutes if you want. Consider them YOUR 15 minute checks instead of theirs. Make us your locked ward. We love you dearly. We’ll all join hands and make a wall around you, your own living locked ward. Locked in our hearts anyway.  Breathe in, breathe out, let the minutes pass, you can get thru this. E-mail me every 5 minutes if you want, I’m sure there’s a line of ppl willing to be accessible to you during the hours I don’t have a computer.

Jenny, I am home pretty much all day and if I work it’s in the evenings so I check the group and email often if you need to check in count me in as available for support! Every 5 minutes, every two minutes I don’t care if you need some extra support you got it!!!!If you need help I’m HERE for you!!!! HUGS  AND GOOD THOUGHTS TO YOU!!!!!                                       ~Beth~  You can do this, it’s not as overwhelming as it feels, it’s a – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – trick, trying to get you to panic and trip. Such a *smart* girl you are to ask for our help, we can tell you the truth… it IS illusory, you can get thru this. You can get to the other side, and look back and see it for what it is now… the past, something hard you got thru. Nobody could serve up the generous portions of love and truth that you give us…and not have the capacity to serve some to herself. We’ll spoonfeed you love and support if you need it, because we love you, and some of us (blush) have been where you are now, and know what we’re talking about.You recently sent me a massage about my inability to believe someon’e claims that it’s possible to eat and not go nuts.You told me to trust it was the truth b/c you had experienced it yourself. I’m sending you this message to tell you some of the same. You can get thru this, I have experienced that, and can tell you it’s true. Don’t give up.   -Sin Eater

Response:

<<rational self peeks head back in door and says the following… I don’t *know* what to do.  I need some advice or at least some encouragement.  Please, please, could I have some responses, dearest friends — all it has to be is "hang in there" and "{hug}" — just PLEASE, say something to me.  I’m very confused…. Thanks for letting me spew. Love, Jenny

Oh Jenny,   your post made me alternately want to cry and laugh…. you have a wonderful sense of humour, even when you are low and confused hugs?   encouragement?  you don’t have to ask twice Jenny {{{{{ JENNY }}}}}  {{{{{{ JENNY }}}}}}  {{{{{{ JENNY }}}}}}} you can do it Jenny,  I know you can, you’ve come a long  way,  you know you can continue Jenny…. you have wonderful children,  you are a wonderful person and lets face facts Jenny,  you are out of this world [grin] well, gotta keep this short as like i said in my post just before i’m trying to keep my time here down,…. but i couldn’t resist replying to this post Jenny. {{{{ few extra hugs to keep you going }}}}}}} take care love and hugs Susan

Response:

<<<<<<<<<GIANT HUGS <<<<<<<<<EVEN MORE GIANT BEAR HUGS <<<<<<<<<hug <<<<<<<<hug X 100000000000000000000000000000000 Hang in there Jen! Gosh you’ve been through so much…. I just wish I could be there for you. <<<<<more hugs Take care Christine :~) <- tear in eye after reading your touching post! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

Hi.         Oh goodness, where to begin??? Jenny, is it possible to wait *before* making any changes with the Effexor to see just what happens with the mania? In other words, is the mania interfering with your life? How long has it lasted? Does it come and go within a days time? Could the mania be due to other medication? Another alternative might be to reduce the Effexor *then* see what happens, rather than stopping it altogether. That way, you could, hopefully, see exactly which medication is triggering the mania. It may not be the Effexor itself, but the Effexor combined with another medication. (I, obviously, no NOTHING about the side effects of medicine, so bear with me!) As much as you might hate the thought of this, if the mania *is* bad, could you add an anti-anxiety type of drug to use on a PRN basis?         I don’t know the relationship you have with your shrink,but has he ever steered you wrong before? I understand that medication is trial and error, so I don’t mean it in that way, but were you ever on a medication you *didn’t* want to stop, he thought you should, and his advice turned out to be right? I guess I would evaluate his track record and weigh that into the decision. I was also wondering if he had a strategy? One that sounds like a good alternative to stopping the Effexor, something hopeful? It doesn’t sound very encouraging to just stop something that is pretty much useful without having a back-up plan. I was curious about one thing. If you shrink can predict that you *WON’T* return to your depression, why hasn’t he been able to predict which medication *WILL* be helpful?? In other words, I think he is pretty arrogant to suggest that you won’t become depressed again, especially given your history. Jeepers, it doesn’t take an M.D. to figure that one out! *sigh* Could I slug your shrink?!? Well, I realize this is so much easier to say than do, Jenny, but my advice would be to do what you gut tells you to do. He may be a doctor,but you also know yourself very well. We don’t have to be conditioned to do what a doctor tells us to do. You know what is helpful, what isn’t, what feels good or bad, what your body can handle, etc. This relationship (with your shrink) should be a collaborative effort. Not just him telling you, or any client, what to do and the client following along like a little robot. Your input should matter A GREAT DEAL. If he isn’t respectful of that, find someone who is. I hope some of this has been helpful, Jenny. I am worried for you and really want you to continue feeling better. One last thought, I hope you don’t mind. Since it is hard to resist the urge, when you are feeling badly, to overdose on your medication, could you ask that the prescription only be filled for a few days worth? I know that is a pain to go to the drug store so often,but it may help. I understand how it feels to be suicidal, and I know that if you really want to do it there are other ways, but for me, it helped to get rid of any medication in the house, I became less impulsive. Just a thought. Lots of safe, warm hugs being sent your way…. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<JENNY ~~Emma P.S. Please keep us informed? — For more information about this service, send e-mail to:

Response:

Dear Good People, Strange Days have indeed found us… or at least they’ve sure found me, and through their strange hours, we linger alone, etc. etc. (you all know the rest).  But it’s TOO strange, even for me — and I need some reassurance.  QUICKLY.  Five minutes ago.  No!  Wait!  I need it 100 years ago, in the year 1896!  You guys can do that, right? Here’s a quick rundown — a little background. Eating disorder, as you know, and as you’ve probably figured out by now, depression.  Then…. … worse depression.  Suicidal depression.  Overdose, overdose, overdose.  Hospital, hospital, hospital.  Always the locked ward. Hospital, ER, OD, stomach pump, locked ward, court examiner, hahahahahaha what a Big Joke *he* was!  Released to go home.  What a laugh — a laugh and a half… Out of hospital — but with new meds from previous hospital!  What would YOU do if someone just, like, *gave* you lots of Dangerous Drugs and you were feeling suicidal?  I think it’s obvious….. Back in hospital.  ER, stomach pump, locked ward, meds.  MORE meds. Increase meds.  Add meds.  Subtract meds.  Add another and another. Increase meds and cut one and add some more. (Psychiatry is done by trial and error.  The only difference, when they’re doing their little experiments, is psychiatrists don’t use rhesus monkeys or rats — they use People.  And who cares anyway?  If you’re in a Locked Ward, caged up, wrong side of the zoo — hell, you qualify as an animal so why NOT get into some experiments?  Shoot some of that hairspray in my eyes, doc.  Do it again, it hurts SO good.  Gimme some bacteria.  Inject me with Trial Medications.  More, more, MORE!  Oh how I adore being at the mercy of these fiends!) Released again.  OD again on prescribed psych meds.  Repeat. Hospital hospital hospital, then a "sub-acute care facility" — but it, too was locked.  Meds don’t work.  Won’t ever get better.  Screw everything.  Signing contracts not to hurt myself.   Like I cared…. Fifteen-minute checks…. half-hour checks…  screw it all, nothing’s going to work. THEN SOMETHING HAPPENED.  An entirely arbitrary combination of meds (they’re ALL arbitrary!!!!!!) started to have an effect.  LESS depression!  Feeling better!  It can’t be true!  Thank you, God, thank you! Going home, and STILL feeling better, and not quite believing it, but it’s TRUE.  One week, two weeks, three…. NO suicidal thoughts! Able to CONCENTRATE at work!  DOING things!  Opening my mail! Answering the phone!  Thank you, God, and PLEASE let it last…. THEN SOMETHING ELSE HAPPENED.  A week ago I started getting a little bit manic.  Or… "manicky."  Manicky — that’s what one counselor said.  Can you believe it?  A *professional* said that to me. Manicky?  MANICKY??   Please.  That’s not even a WORD.  Maybe it *should* be a word, because after all it *does* rhyme with "panicky," but it’s NOT a word, and that’s goddamned inexcusable, making up words to fit your fancy!  Why *have* a language anyway?  DEATH to all those who would whimper and cry…. Manic (not manicky) — a state of mania.  Is it strictly medication-induced, or was I bipolar all along & this drug just triggered a manic episode?  Is it going to happen again?  It doesn’t matter right now — what DOES matter is that I have to stop taking the ONLY meds that ever helped me. I "have to" (more truthfully, I have been *told* to) taper down on the Effexor, and by tomorrow I’m supposed to be off of it entirely. I’M NOT FUCKING GOING TO DO IT.  No Way, No Day.  I *know* the depression will return if I do what I’m "supposed" to, and I WON’T DO IT!  Why should I do something to make myself feel BAD on PURPOSE?? My shrink says, "No, the depression won’t come back" in this reassuring voice that I *know* he’s creating artificially in order to trick me into doing this thing; I *know* he’s LYING.  He’s lying to me so I’ll stop taking the Effexor. I *KNOW* HE’S LYING, it’s so obvious!!!!  Son of a bitch!  Of COURSE the depression will come back!  Anything else flies in the face of Common Sense, and he KNOWS it and he’s LYING to me because he thinks I’m BETTER OFF suicidally depressed than having a little touch of mania!  BETTER OFF?  BETTER I HATE THIS!  I HATE THIS!  I HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE THIS!  I don’t WANT to go off the meds.  I don’t *care* what he thinks.  He’s just being a PRICK! So anyway, like a Reasonable Person, I told him, "Just wait a minute here — I don’t *want* to be depressed again.  THIS isn’t so bad. He said, "It’s *not* better.  You’ll just have to trust me on that." << rational self steps in for a brief interjection — I *am* afraid, though, of what would happen if I have to go into the court-ordered psychologist’s assessment & am acting somewhat manic. That would…… not be good.  BUT only if I’m being delusional or hostile or something.  It could still be okay! <<anxiety attack — get in a doorway or other safe place, and cover ears AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGHHHH!!!! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGHHHH!!!! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGHHHH!!!! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGHHHH!!!! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGHHHH!!!! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGHHHH!!!! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGHHHH!!!! I CAN’T STAND IT! <<rational self is ushered out of room at bayonet-point I *like* the Effexor & I don’t think a little bit of mania is going to hurt me or get me in trouble & I don’t CARE if it’s some goddamned "disorder."  I don’t fucking CARE!  My shrink can go to hell and fuck himself while he’s at it, and I’m REALLY, SERIOUSLY quite inclined to IGNORE said shrink’s instructions, and CONTINUE to take my Effexor; after all, I have a bottle of them with 270 tablets and 3 refills, and I’ll do as I damn well please with them! <<rational self peeks head back in door and says the following… I don’t *know* what to do.  I need some advice or at least some encouragement.  Please, please, could I have some responses, dearest friends — all it has to be is "hang in there" and "{hug}" — just PLEASE, say something to me.  I’m very confused…. Thanks for letting me spew. Love, Jenny

Response:

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Newsgroups: alt.support.anxiety-panic X-Newsreader: NEWTNews & Chameleon — TCP/IP for MS Windows from NetManage MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I have suffered from a condition which makes my hands tremble. When ever I am with someone and I have to sign or pick somethig delicate or valuable up If I think they are looking at me I will start trembling. It also occurs when in a shop and I pick up some china etc and my hands start shaking because someone Mally has suggested you have a tremor problem in addition to your anxiety. If this is the case than medication to control the tremor might be helpful. If however the tremor only occurs in social situations the liklyhood is that it is anxiety related. If this is the case the treatment of you phobia via cognative behavioral therapy would be an option. Jim Claiborn Ph.D.

Just to keep the record straight I didn’t suggest that the poster had a tremor problem – I said they *may* have one and also stated that it was entirely possible that it was an anxiety/PD problem as other’s have experienced this. Last thing I want to do is tell people what they’ve got or what treatment they should use!  Er……guess I don’t mind saying what "treatments" I think *nobody* should use!  <g Mally  :)

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(dennis goos) writes: Just to keep the record straight I didn’t suggest that the poster had a tremor problem – I said they *may* have one and also stated that it was entirely possible that it was an anxiety/PD problem as other’s have experienced this. Last thing I want to do is tell people what they’ve got or what treatment they should use!  Er……guess I don’t mind saying what "treatments" I think *nobody* should use!  <g Mally  :)

I was just going to write a response to that about how you said *may* have a tremor problem when I decided to read on and found your response.  You and Dr. Clairborn sure have different opinions….which of course is great, its good to hear both sides….but have you two *agreed to disagree*? <g Cyndie

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(dennis goos) writes: As you and I well know Cyndie, a movement disorder of any kind should be thoroughly investigated by a movement disorder specialist.  I find it quite amazing and shocking that CT therapy is being used to treat movement disorders.  I think it is indefensible that Jim would suggest CT as a treatment – much as I realize that he’s convinced that it cures everything from warts to premature baldness!  <g

Yeah, I could just imagine me taking Jeremy to therepy for dystonia! <g Cyndie

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Newsgroups: alt.support.anxiety-panic X-Newsreader: NEWTNews & Chameleon — TCP/IP for MS Windows from NetManage MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I have suffered from a condition which makes my hands tremble. When ever I am with someone and I have to sign or pick somethig delicate or valuable up If I think they are looking at me I will start trembling. It also occurs when in a shop and I pick up some china etc and my hands start shaking because someone could be watching me and I may drop it. These symptoms seem to go around in never larger circles as the more I think about it the more I shake. This has been with me since I was 15 and now I am 28. In everyday life I try to avoid signing in public and so I avoid paying on credit card as I might shake as I know people are looking for your signature. Talking to the cashier helps but not enough. If anyone else suffers from a similar condition please let me know also as i am from england does anybody know of any books or anyone that can help me with this condition. Am I alone? Mark

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Newsgroups: alt.support.anxiety-panic X-Newsreader: NEWTNews & Chameleon — TCP/IP for MS Windows from NetManage MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I have suffered from a condition which makes my hands tremble. When ever I am with someone and I have to sign or pick somethig delicate or valuable up If I think they are looking at me I will start trembling. It also occurs when in a shop and I pick up some china etc and my hands start shaking because someone could be watching me and I may drop it. These symptoms seem to go around in never larger circles as the more I think about it the more I shake. This has been with me since I was 15 and now I am 28. In everyday life I try to avoid signing in public and so I avoid paying on credit card as I might shake as I know people are looking for your signature. Talking to the cashier helps but not enough. If anyone else suffers from a similar condition please let me know also as i am from england does anybody know of any books or anyone that can help me with this condition. Am I alone? Mark

Hi Mark: I have Essential Tremor as well as PD.  This makes my hands shake a lot – stress can make it worse, as does carrying anything heavy, etc.  When I’m nervous, stressed or have been doing something physical I can shake/tremble all over.  I like to think of myself as a mover and a shaker!  :)   Has your doctor checked Essential Tremor out for you?  A neurologist would be able to tell you whether there is any indication of this. There have been others on this group who have posted with similar problems also, so it is possible that it is a PD symptom. Feel free to email me if you have more questions. Mally  

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Newsgroups: alt.support.anxiety-panic X-Newsreader: NEWTNews & Chameleon — TCP/IP for MS Windows from NetManage MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I have suffered from a condition which makes my hands tremble. When ever I am with someone and I have to sign or pick somethig delicate or valuable up If I think they are looking at me I will start trembling. It also occurs when in a shop and I pick up some china etc and my hands start shaking because someone could be watching me and I may drop it.

<snip that can help me with this condition. Am I alone? Mark

Hi Mark, I’ve experienced the same problem. I used to work in a restaurant, and I would shake or worry about shaking when I was carrying things to a table. Also, I have difficulty signing in public – my signature looks worse than usual because I shake. A method I use to alleviate this is replace the "what if" (as in what if I shake) with "so what". This sometimes helps with other "what if" situations. Hope this helps. Or at least maybe it’ll help to know that you’re not the only one who has experienced this. Peace, Don Ganton

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