Question:

Theoretically the canisters should last 30 days, but I find them running low quicker than that.  So with Advair you wouldn’t have to worry about that.

Right 28 days with a counter which reduces after each dose,

Response:

there is a major advantage in patient compliance having only one product to use instead of two. Another advantage is that the dose is adjustable. – it comes in low and high doses. It seems that the attractive package does make it more patient compliant, as soon as he recovers from the sticker shock. Murray Grossan, M.D. http://www.ent-consult.com http://www.TinnitusRelief.net http://www.emedicine.com/ent/topic516.htm

Response:

My doctor told me the Advair was more expensive.   Is it really true that the Servent/Flovent is more expensive?  And, I’m talking about the real cost, not the fact that I’d have one copay instead of two. Another factor is, for me, I don’t get

Advair is more expensive versus one inhaler but if you add the Flovent inhaler and the Serevent inhaler they will be less.

Response:

 The final question is cost: does your health insurance cover Advair.

It should as you save around $30.00 by using the advair rather then the Flovent and Serevent separately.I would think if you presented this to the insurance people they would appreciate you trying to save them money.

Response:

 The final question is cost: does your health insurance cover Advair. It should as you save around $30.00 by using the advair rather then the Flovent and Serevent separately.I would think if you presented this to the insurance people they would appreciate you trying to save them money.

My doctor told me the Advair was more expensive.   Is it really true that the Servent/Flovent is more expensive?  And, I’m talking about the real cost, not the fact that I’d have one copay instead of two. Another factor is, for me, I don’t get the 120 doses per canister of Serevent and Flovent.  Theoretically the canisters should last 30 days, but I find them running low quicker than that.  So with Advair you wouldn’t have to worry about that.

Response:

Is there something about combining Flovent and Serevent into one package that is more effective than taking them separately?

There are two advantages. 1) The delivery system takes less kill/practice and since MDI technique is notoriously horrible it is hoped that the delivery will be better. 2) Cost. The Advair discuss is priced less than the two inhalers separately and if you pay by the copay it will probably be only one instead of two. — CBI, MD "Believe those who are seeking the truth; doubt those who find it." -Andre Gide

Response:

My doctor told me the Advair was more expensive.   Is it really true that the Servent/Flovent is more expensive?  And, I’m talking about the real cost, not the fact that I’d have one copay instead of two.

All prices are AWP (average wholesale price). Induhvidual indusurers may make special deals. That said: Advair is more expensive that either Flovent or Serevent alone but less expensive than both. Since the Pulmicort Turbuhaler has three months worth of medicine in each device it is less expensive than Flovent and the combo od Pulmicort and Serevent is about the same as Advair. Oc course, if it cuts two co-pays to one it is cheaper for you regardless of AWP. In my experience the only insurers that won’t pay for Advair also don’t pay for Serevent. Another factor is, for me, I don’t get the 120 doses per canister of Serevent and Flovent.  Theoretically the canisters should last 30 days, but I find them running low quicker than that.  So with Advair you wouldn’t have to worry about that.

Correct. Since it has a numerical counter and a delivery device that does not rely on gas pressures you would not have to guess exactly when it will run out either. — CBI, MD

Response:

Why all this hype about Advair?  All it is, is a combination of Flovent’s active ingredient + Serevent’s active ingredient, in a funny new package. Is there something about combining Flovent and Serevent into one package that is more effective than taking them separately? — Steven D. Litvintchouk                   Advair cuts down on number of inhalers used: from two to one. Also  the

delivery system is different: Advair uses a powder and Flovent is a mdi. If you have problems with an mdi, then, on that basis, the switch to advair could be indicated. The problem with Advair is that during an exacerbation you cannot vary the Advair dosage, you will have to supplement with Flovent in whatever strength is required. In terms of efficacy, from personal experience, I find no difference and this is supported by my pulmonologist.  The final question is cost: does your health insurance cover Advair. John – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

Why all this hype about Advair?  All it is, is a combination of Flovent’s active ingredient + Serevent’s active ingredient, in a funny new package. Is there something about combining Flovent and Serevent into one package that is more effective than taking them separately?

According to my Pulmologist the powder form is more effective in getting into your lungs and does a better job.

Response:

Only a couple of differences. — It’s a dry powder inhaler, so no propellant to react to. — It’s one puff twice daily, not 2 each twice daily (i.e., 1 not 4, twice daily)  Helps compliance — There’s a counter on the device.  Helps keep track of when to replace. There were studies about it being more effective than just flovent, but I haven’t seen anything about it being better than the pair of medications prescribed separately.  Other than what’s listed above, it would appear to be a compliance issue.  I prefer it since I cough after taking the 4 puffs, but not after taking advair.  YMMV. Liam

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My pulmonologist wants to try switching me from Flovent to Advair. And I’ve heard so many other asthma and COPD patients praising Advair. Why all this hype about Advair?  All it is, is a combination of Flovent’s active ingredient + Serevent’s active ingredient, in a funny new package. Is there something about combining Flovent and Serevent into one package that is more effective than taking them separately? — Steven D. Litvintchouk

Response:

My pulmonologist wants to try switching me from Flovent to Advair. And I’ve heard so many other asthma and COPD patients praising Advair. Why all this hype about Advair?  All it is, is a combination of Flovent’s active ingredient + Serevent’s active ingredient, in a funny new package. Is there something about combining Flovent and Serevent into one package that is more effective than taking them separately? — Steven D. Litvintchouk                  

Response:

Question:

I had told the nurse I wanted to do the CT scan today and she said she would schedule it and call with a time.  I let the time get away from me and before I knew it, it was after 5pm.  I guess I will call this morning and see what is up. I have a question for anyone who may know.  I have been taking Bidex, Singulair and Histussin HC for the past week for my breathing and chest congestion.  Do any of these cause a depressing or down-feeling effect?  I have felt like crying a lot the last couple of days.  Of course, when I have felt bad for too long I feel that way also.  I was just wondering if any of these meds could have that side-effect? Vicki — The charter is available at:

Question:

Jack and Lorna You were both spot on with your diagnosis I went to my doctor yesterday and he confirmed I had Thrush, he also put me back on Pulmicot and Bricanyl with instructions to return in two weeks when I should have stabalised and he will then reconsider upping my dosage or possibly introducing another pump to go with the others. Thanks again Alan

Response:

           The word is "thursh" an’ I sure as hell got it when I first started Pulmicort.  Before then I had got away with not rinsing after the other steroids.  Now I normally rinse  a n d  gargle twice religiously after each use.              BTW switching from Pulmicort to Beclofort comparable to switching from gin to beer.  It jus’ won’t get it.                 Hope you use a soft cloth surgical mask in the shop.—jack

Response:

Hi everyone I have been reading this NG for some weeks now and have recently experienced a change in my asthma.   I am 56 years old and had asthma for 15 years I work in a workshop where there is often dust from polishing motors and chemicals which are used for various processes.  As this is my business and I cannot avoid it although I do my best to minimise the effects .

Inhaling metal dust and chemicals can cause many different kinds of lung disease, not just asthma. Well I needed to consult my doctor a week or so ago as my asthma symptoms were causing me more problems than usual ( tight chest and coughing wheezing which refused to get better)  I explained to the doctor that I always have a cough and was wondering if perhaps I should consider a change of pumps. At the time I was on Pulmicort and Brycanel she examined my chest and said it was clear but said my blow test showed my asthma  was worse than normal and agreed to try me on Salamol instead of Brycanel she also prescribed anti histamine tablets.

Pulmicort is one of the best steroid inhalers; Becloforte is an older weaker one. Antihistamines only help if you have allergies; sounds like your problem may be related to the chemicals and metal dust at work. You may need to improve the air quality at work; chemical fume hoods, air cleaner, masks, ventilation, etc.  These tablets gave me many of the side effects mentioned in the instruction sheet so I stopped taking them after three days.  Shortly after I was sent to an asthma clinic for a further check-up and the nurse suggested replacing the Pulmicort with Becloforte now since taking these two new pumps I have suffered a sore throat, headache and a feeling of being generally run down to such an extent that I have had to take to my bed for two days.  This is most unlike me.   I have today decided to returned to my Pulmicort hoping this will rid me of my sore throat and was wondering if any of this strikes a cord with anyone else. Regards Alan UK

You may benefit by a full workup from a chest doctor, including  Pulmonary Function Tests and a chest x-ray. You might have ‘walking pneumonia’ or other lung disease, along with the asthma. Ellis

Response:

Hi everyone I have been reading this NG for some weeks now and have recently experienced a change in my asthma.   I am 56 years old and had asthma for 15 years I work in a workshop where there is often dust from polishing motors and chemicals which are used for various processes.  As this is my business and I cannot avoid it although I do my best to minimise the effects . Well I needed to consult my doctor a week or so ago as my asthma symptoms were causing me more problems than usual ( tight chest and coughing wheezing which refused to get better)  I explained to the doctor that I always have a cough and was wondering if perhaps I should consider a change of pumps. At the time I was on Pulmicort and Brycanel she examined my chest and said it was clear but said my blow test showed my asthma  was worse than normal and agreed to try me on Salamol instead of Brycanel she also prescribed anti histamine tablets.  These tablets gave me many of the side effects mentioned in the instruction sheet so I stopped taking them after three days.  Shortly after I was sent to an asthma clinic for a further check-up and the nurse suggested replacing the Pulmicort with Becloforte now since taking these two new pumps I have suffered a sore throat, headache and a feeling of being generally run down to such an extent that I have had to take to my bed for two days.  This is most unlike me.   I have today decided to returned to my Pulmicort hoping this will rid me of my sore throat and was wondering if any of this strikes a cord with anyone else. Regards Alan UK

Response:

Pulmicourt, once taken, you need to gargle and rinse out your mouth and throat, it can be the cause of your sore throat, it is a steroid and unless you do this, it can cause something called "thrust" so my Dr. says give this a try and see if it helps.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi everyone I have been reading this NG for some weeks now and have recently experienced a change in my asthma.   I am 56 years old and had asthma for 15 years I work in a workshop where there is often dust from polishing motors and chemicals which are used for various processes.  As this is my business and I cannot avoid it although I do my best to minimise the effects . Well I needed to consult my doctor a week or so ago as my asthma symptoms were causing me more problems than usual ( tight chest and coughing wheezing which refused to get better)  I explained to the doctor that I always have a cough and was wondering if perhaps I should consider a change of pumps. At the time I was on Pulmicort and Brycanel she examined my chest and said it was clear but said my blow test showed my asthma  was worse than normal and agreed to try me on Salamol instead of Brycanel she also prescribed anti histamine tablets.  These tablets gave me many of the side effects mentioned in the instruction sheet so I stopped taking them after three days.  Shortly after I was sent to an asthma clinic for a further check-up and the nurse suggested replacing the Pulmicort with Becloforte now since taking these two new pumps I have suffered a sore throat, headache and a feeling of being generally run down to such an extent that I have had to take to my bed for two days.  This is most unlike me.   I have today decided to returned to my Pulmicort hoping this will rid me of my sore throat and was wondering if any of this strikes a cord with anyone else. Regards Alan UK

Response:

I have a 2500 gallon pond, 3 months old, with a Cal 1200 pump.  It just doesn’t do the job and I want to upgrade it to make my waterfall more substantial.  The pump I choose needs to have an inline connection for the in-pond filter (yes, it’s crummy but it was not my design!).  I want something that is cheap to run and, yes, cheap to buy.  I was considering the Cal 2700 but would appreciate any advice or recommendations. Thanks, Gary

Response:

Hi Gary, I am not familiar with Cal pumps since I was advised years ago to stay away from them. I used Little Giant pumps in the past and found that I never had clear water. If water quality and clear water is your goal you should considered using an outside pump and filter system. There will be people on this NG that will disagree but this is my opinion having used both. Outside filters are allot easier to maintain and outside pumps are really cheap to run 24/7. You may be able to pick up a used pump real cheap. see my filter setup at, good luck. http://sites.netscape.net/guppyusa/homepage – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a 2500 gallon pond, 3 months old, with a Cal 1200 pump.  It just doesn’t do the job and I want to upgrade it to make my waterfall more substantial.  The pump I choose needs to have an inline connection for the in-pond filter (yes, it’s crummy but it was not my design!).  I want something that is cheap to run and, yes, cheap to buy.  I was considering the Cal 2700 but would appreciate any advice or recommendations. Thanks, Gary

Response:

I was considering the Cal 2700 but would appreciate any advice or recommendations.

Cal S2700 draws 3.8 amps at 2680 gph at 1 foot head, and costs $280. http://www.calpump.com/prod03.htm Sequence 1000 K3H1.111 draws 1.7 amps at 2590 gph at 4.4 foot head, and costs $375. http://members.aol.com/mdmpumps/pumpspecs.html Operating costs at average US electrical rates ($0.086/ kwh) are $344 and $154 per year for full time use, respectively.  (Of course, the waterfall doesn’t have to be run full time; a smaller pump would suffice for filtration and aeration.) This is just an example to illustrate that efficiency is more important than purchase price.  In this case, the more expensive pump pays for itself in 6 months operation, and may last longer as well.  There are many other brands besides these two. – Rod

Response:

– Hi Gary., I would like to get in on this pump debate. I  do not think it is fair to say one specific pump is better than another one. The answer to your question I think is to do your research on pumps before buying one. The pumps can be divided into at least three groups. Submersible (sealed), submersible (magnetic drive) and in line such as a pool pump. The magnetic drive is very inexpensive on power consumption  but the trade off is a much lower head or less gallons delivered at higher heights. On the plus side the magnetic driven pump has replaceable  parts that the sealed submersible doesn’t have. The in line pump sitting up out of the pond has many advantages that submersible pumps do not have. Some of the options they offer are , offering the ability to draw water off of the bottom of the pond via a bottom drain, definitely more gallonage per hour at very low power consumption.,as low as .88 amps for 1200 gallons per hour.The thing you want to look at first is how much water do you have to move? A small waterfall for example requires 50-60 gallons for every 1 inch wide. so for a waterfall 6 inches wide you would require 300 gallons per hour. If your pond is under 1000 gallons and you have a small filter sitting out of the pond as part of your watercourse you can check the magnetically driven pumps and they will have a chart describing the gallons pumped at each foot of rise.I think you will find that if you can incorporate a submerged pump that in time you will | Roger Pinette | Ponds Beautiful    (604) 534-9133 | http://www.pondsbeautiful.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Gary, I am not familiar with Cal pumps since I was advised years ago to stay away from them. I used Little Giant pumps in the past and found that I never had clear water. If water quality and clear water is your goal you should considered using an outside pump and filter system. There will be people on this NG that will disagree but this is my opinion having used both. Outside filters are allot easier to maintain and outside pumps are really cheap to run 24/7. You may be able to pick up a used pump real cheap. see my filter setup at, good luck. http://sites.netscape.net/guppyusa/homepage I have a 2500 gallon pond, 3 months old, with a Cal 1200 pump.  It just doesn’t do the job and I want to upgrade it to make my waterfall more substantial.  The pump I choose needs to have an inline connection for the in-pond filter (yes, it’s crummy but it was not my design!).  I want something that is cheap to run and, yes, cheap to buy.  I was considering the Cal 2700 but would appreciate any advice or recommendations. Thanks, Gary

Response:

        Thanks Rogeer for a lot of good info. I’d like to mention for discussion my experience with pumps so far. In our two ponds that we got when we moved, each had a Little Giant submersible pump. Both eventually started leaking coolant and had to be replaced.         They lasted only about 13 months (good work, as they are guaranteed for only a year!). One more lasted about the same. So, I replaced it with an above-ground pool pump with skimmer and filter, and that has done yeoman service, plugging away for two years now with no problem. It cost only a little more than the Little Giant even with skimmer and filter.         The dealers I talked with all said those submersible pumps are not designed to work full time without going belly up after about a year.         Any others had similar experiences?  |  NOTE: If you want to e-mail a reply, please strip |  |  off the letters "OOPS" from my address.           |  |              (Spam preventer)                      | – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text — Hi Gary., I would like to get in on this pump debate. I  do not think it is fair to say one specific pump is better than another one. The answer to your question I think is to do your research on pumps before buying one. The pumps can be divided into at least three groups. Submersible (sealed), submersible (magnetic drive) and in line such as a pool pump. The magnetic drive is very inexpensive on power consumption  but the trade off is a much lower head or less gallons delivered at higher heights. On the plus side the magnetic driven pump has replaceable  parts that the sealed submersible doesn’t have. The in line pump sitting up out of the pond has many advantages that submersible pumps do not have. Some of the options they offer are , offering the ability to draw water off of the bottom of the pond via a bottom drain, definitely more gallonage per hour at very low power consumption.,as low as .88 amps for 1200 gallons per hour.The thing you want to look at first is how much water do you have to move? A small waterfall for example requires 50-60 gallons for every 1 inch wide. so for a waterfall 6 inches wide you would require 300 gallons per hour. If your pond is under 1000 gallons and you have a small filter sitting out of the pond as part of your watercourse you can check the magnetically driven pumps and they will have a chart describing the gallons pumped at each foot of rise.I think you will find that if you can incorporate a submerged pump that in time you will | Roger Pinette | Ponds Beautiful    (604) 534-9133 | http://www.pondsbeautiful.com Hi Gary, I am not familiar with Cal pumps since I was advised years ago to stay away from them. I used Little Giant pumps in the past and found that I never had clear water. If water quality and clear water is your goal you should considered using an outside pump and filter system. There will be people on this NG that will disagree but this is my opinion having used both. Outside filters are allot easier to maintain and outside pumps are really cheap to run 24/7. You may be able to pick up a used pump real cheap. see my filter setup at, good luck. http://sites.netscape.net/guppyusa/homepage I have a 2500 gallon pond, 3 months old, with a Cal 1200 pump.  It just doesn’t do the job and I want to upgrade it to make my waterfall more substantial.  The pump I choose needs to have an inline connection for the in-pond filter (yes, it’s crummy but it was not my design!).  I want something that is cheap to run and, yes, cheap to buy.  I was considering the Cal 2700 but would appreciate any advice or recommendations. Thanks, Gary

–

Response:

— Hi Gary., I would like to get in on this pump debate. I  do not think it is fair to say one specific pump is better than another one. The answer to your question I think is to do your research on pumps before buying one. The pumps can be divided into at least three groups. Submersible (sealed), submersible (magnetic drive) and in line such as a pool pump. The magnetic drive is very inexpensive on power consumption  but the trade off is a much lower head or less gallons delivered at higher heights. On the plus side the magnetic driven pump has replaceable  parts that the sealed submersible doesn’t have. The in line pump sitting up out of the pond has many advantages that submersible pumps do not have. Some of the options they offer are , offering the ability to draw water off of the bottom of the pond via a bottom drain,

Depending on how the filter is designed, all pumps mentioned above can draw water off the bottom. I have a Beckett submersible in a gravity-fed filter using the Tetra vacuum bottom drain. ~ jan See my ponds thru the seasons: http://jjspond.home.att.net/         ~Keep ‘em Wet!~      Tri-Cities WA    Zone 7a          To e-mail see website – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -definitely more gallonage per hour at very low power consumption.,as low as .88 amps for 1200 gallons per hour.The thing you want to look at first is how much water do you have to move? A small waterfall for example requires 50-60 gallons for every 1 inch wide. so for a waterfall 6 inches wide you would require 300 gallons per hour. If your pond is under 1000 gallons and you have a small filter sitting out of the pond as part of your watercourse you can check the magnetically driven pumps and they will have a chart describing the gallons pumped at each foot of rise.I think you will find that if you can incorporate a submerged pump that in time you will | Roger Pinette | Ponds Beautiful    (604) 534-9133 | http://www.pondsbeautiful.com Hi Gary, I am not familiar with Cal pumps since I was advised years ago to stay away from them. I used Little Giant pumps in the past and found that I never had clear water. If water quality and clear water is your goal you should considered using an outside pump and filter system. There will be people on this NG that will disagree but this is my opinion having used both. Outside filters are allot easier to maintain and outside pumps are really cheap to run 24/7. You may be able to pick up a used pump real cheap. see my filter setup at, good luck. http://sites.netscape.net/guppyusa/homepage I have a 2500 gallon pond, 3 months old, with a Cal 1200 pump.  It just doesn’t do the job and I want to upgrade it to make my waterfall more substantial.  The pump I choose needs to have an inline connection for the in-pond filter (yes, it’s crummy but it was not my design!).  I want something that is cheap to run and, yes, cheap to buy.  I was considering the Cal 2700 but would appreciate any advice or recommendations. Thanks, Gary

Response:

Hi Rennie, Welcome Back…  It’s great to have you back here where you belong. Between that awful Flu  and your server you’ve been absent for some time ….  Glad your doctors and your server got it all together … A hearty Welcome to Roger!    You know what that means Roger?    Bottom line:     You are Porg!!  You will be assimilated.  All efforts to become disentangled will be useless  (or something like that ;o) Nedra / Missouri / Zone 6 —  Nedra’s Ponds: www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/4836/

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — Hi Gary., I would like to get in on this pump debate. I  do not think it is fair to say one specific pump is better than another one. The answer to your question I think is to do your research on pumps before buying one. The pumps can be divided into at least three groups. Submersible (sealed), submersible (magnetic drive) and in line such as a pool pump. The magnetic drive is very inexpensive on power consumption  but the trade off is a much lower head or less gallons delivered at higher heights. On the plus side the magnetic driven pump has replaceable  parts that the sealed submersible doesn’t have. The in line pump sitting up out of the pond has many advantages that submersible pumps do not have. Some of the options they offer are , offering the ability to draw water off of the bottom of the pond via a bottom drain, definitely more gallonage per hour at very low power consumption.,as low as .88 amps for 1200 gallons per hour.The thing you want to look at first is how much water do you have to move? A small waterfall for example requires 50-60 gallons for every 1 inch wide. so for a waterfall 6 inches wide you would require 300 gallons per hour. If your pond is under 1000 gallons and you have a small filter sitting out of the pond as part of your watercourse you can check the magnetically driven pumps and they will have a chart describing the gallons pumped at each foot of rise.I think you will find that if you can incorporate a submerged pump that in time you will | Roger Pinette | Ponds Beautiful    (604) 534-9133 | http://www.pondsbeautiful.com Roger, welcome to the newsgroup. I’m sure all of us in rec.ponds will benefit from your many years of watergardening and Koi expertise… To the regulars in the NG, this is the gentleman that dropped everything he was doing the day of the vandalism to my pond and rushed out to be of assistance trying to get everything working again. Thank you again Roger for all your help….. Rennie in Abbotsford PS…ISP finally finished system re-build and put rec.ponds back on newsserver…nice to be back……

Response:

PS…ISP finally finished system re-build and put rec.ponds back on newsserver…nice to be back……

Rennie, welcome back, almost had to send the lily fairies after you. Unfortunately many seem to be AWOL from rec.ponds. Time to hit the books & magazines and get more pond related topics going. ;o) ~ jan

Response:

My 300 GPH Little Giant lasted 4 years. I don’t remember the model number but it cost about $60 at Home Depot. I replaced it with the same model and expect to get 4 years from the new one also, It runs 24/7 year round. —      Larry Wasserman     Baltimore, Maryland

Response:

A small waterfall for example requires 50-60 gallons for every 1 inch wide. so for a waterfall 6 inches wide you would require 300 gallons per hour.

That seems quite low… don’t most sources recommend about 100 gph per inch of sill width? – Rod

Response:

On the plus side the magnetic driven pump has replaceable  parts that the sealed submersible doesn’t have.

Are we talking about the same things here?  Most people saying ‘magnetic driven’ are talking strictly about Danner’s Supreme Mag-Drive.  iirc, that’s an epoxy sealed unit that has about 3 replaceable parts.  My ’sealed’ submersible has dozens of replacable parts – including the seals. — Derek (www.netcom.ca/~dbrought/pond) rec.ponds FAQ  http://w3.one.net/~rzutt/faq.html You can’t jail a free man, the best you can do is kill him. – Heinlein

Response:

I have a 2500 gallon pond, 3 months old, with a Cal 1200 pump.  It just doesn’t do the job and I want to upgrade it to make my waterfall more substantial.  The pump I choose needs to have an inline connection for the in-pond filter (yes, it’s crummy but it was not my design!).  I want something that is cheap to run and, yes, cheap to buy.  I was considering the Cal 2700 but would appreciate any advice or recommendations. Thanks, Gary

Response:

Hi Gary, I am not familiar with Cal pumps since I was advised years ago to stay away from them. I used Little Giant pumps in the past and found that I never had clear water. If water quality and clear water is your goal you should considered using an outside pump and filter system. There will be people on this NG that will disagree but this is my opinion having used both. Outside filters are allot easier to maintain and outside pumps are really cheap to run 24/7. You may be able to pick up a used pump real cheap. see my filter setup at, good luck. http://sites.netscape.net/guppyusa/homepage – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a 2500 gallon pond, 3 months old, with a Cal 1200 pump.  It just doesn’t do the job and I want to upgrade it to make my waterfall more substantial.  The pump I choose needs to have an inline connection for the in-pond filter (yes, it’s crummy but it was not my design!).  I want something that is cheap to run and, yes, cheap to buy.  I was considering the Cal 2700 but would appreciate any advice or recommendations. Thanks, Gary

Response:

I was considering the Cal 2700 but would appreciate any advice or recommendations.

Cal S2700 draws 3.8 amps at 2680 gph at 1 foot head, and costs $280. http://www.calpump.com/prod03.htm Sequence 1000 K3H1.111 draws 1.7 amps at 2590 gph at 4.4 foot head, and costs $375. http://members.aol.com/mdmpumps/pumpspecs.html Operating costs at average US electrical rates ($0.086/ kwh) are $344 and $154 per year for full time use, respectively.  (Of course, the waterfall doesn’t have to be run full time; a smaller pump would suffice for filtration and aeration.) This is just an example to illustrate that efficiency is more important than purchase price.  In this case, the more expensive pump pays for itself in 6 months operation, and may last longer as well.  There are many other brands besides these two. – Rod

Response:

– Hi Gary., I would like to get in on this pump debate. I  do not think it is fair to say one specific pump is better than another one. The answer to your question I think is to do your research on pumps before buying one. The pumps can be divided into at least three groups. Submersible (sealed), submersible (magnetic drive) and in line such as a pool pump. The magnetic drive is very inexpensive on power consumption  but the trade off is a much lower head or less gallons delivered at higher heights. On the plus side the magnetic driven pump has replaceable  parts that the sealed submersible doesn’t have. The in line pump sitting up out of the pond has many advantages that submersible pumps do not have. Some of the options they offer are , offering the ability to draw water off of the bottom of the pond via a bottom drain, definitely more gallonage per hour at very low power consumption.,as low as .88 amps for 1200 gallons per hour.The thing you want to look at first is how much water do you have to move? A small waterfall for example requires 50-60 gallons for every 1 inch wide. so for a waterfall 6 inches wide you would require 300 gallons per hour. If your pond is under 1000 gallons and you have a small filter sitting out of the pond as part of your watercourse you can check the magnetically driven pumps and they will have a chart describing the gallons pumped at each foot of rise.I think you will find that if you can incorporate a submerged pump that in time you will | Roger Pinette | Ponds Beautiful    (604) 534-9133 | http://www.pondsbeautiful.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Gary, I am not familiar with Cal pumps since I was advised years ago to stay away from them. I used Little Giant pumps in the past and found that I never had clear water. If water quality and clear water is your goal you should considered using an outside pump and filter system. There will be people on this NG that will disagree but this is my opinion having used both. Outside filters are allot easier to maintain and outside pumps are really cheap to run 24/7. You may be able to pick up a used pump real cheap. see my filter setup at, good luck. http://sites.netscape.net/guppyusa/homepage I have a 2500 gallon pond, 3 months old, with a Cal 1200 pump.  It just doesn’t do the job and I want to upgrade it to make my waterfall more substantial.  The pump I choose needs to have an inline connection for the in-pond filter (yes, it’s crummy but it was not my design!).  I want something that is cheap to run and, yes, cheap to buy.  I was considering the Cal 2700 but would appreciate any advice or recommendations. Thanks, Gary

Response:

        Thanks Rogeer for a lot of good info. I’d like to mention for discussion my experience with pumps so far. In our two ponds that we got when we moved, each had a Little Giant submersible pump. Both eventually started leaking coolant and had to be replaced.         They lasted only about 13 months (good work, as they are guaranteed for only a year!). One more lasted about the same. So, I replaced it with an above-ground pool pump with skimmer and filter, and that has done yeoman service, plugging away for two years now with no problem. It cost only a little more than the Little Giant even with skimmer and filter.         The dealers I talked with all said those submersible pumps are not designed to work full time without going belly up after about a year.         Any others had similar experiences?  |  NOTE: If you want to e-mail a reply, please strip |  |  off the letters "OOPS" from my address.           |  |              (Spam preventer)                      | – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text — Hi Gary., I would like to get in on this pump debate. I  do not think it is fair to say one specific pump is better than another one. The answer to your question I think is to do your research on pumps before buying one. The pumps can be divided into at least three groups. Submersible (sealed), submersible (magnetic drive) and in line such as a pool pump. The magnetic drive is very inexpensive on power consumption  but the trade off is a much lower head or less gallons delivered at higher heights. On the plus side the magnetic driven pump has replaceable  parts that the sealed submersible doesn’t have. The in line pump sitting up out of the pond has many advantages that submersible pumps do not have. Some of the options they offer are , offering the ability to draw water off of the bottom of the pond via a bottom drain, definitely more gallonage per hour at very low power consumption.,as low as .88 amps for 1200 gallons per hour.The thing you want to look at first is how much water do you have to move? A small waterfall for example requires 50-60 gallons for every 1 inch wide. so for a waterfall 6 inches wide you would require 300 gallons per hour. If your pond is under 1000 gallons and you have a small filter sitting out of the pond as part of your watercourse you can check the magnetically driven pumps and they will have a chart describing the gallons pumped at each foot of rise.I think you will find that if you can incorporate a submerged pump that in time you will | Roger Pinette | Ponds Beautiful    (604) 534-9133 | http://www.pondsbeautiful.com Hi Gary, I am not familiar with Cal pumps since I was advised years ago to stay away from them. I used Little Giant pumps in the past and found that I never had clear water. If water quality and clear water is your goal you should considered using an outside pump and filter system. There will be people on this NG that will disagree but this is my opinion having used both. Outside filters are allot easier to maintain and outside pumps are really cheap to run 24/7. You may be able to pick up a used pump real cheap. see my filter setup at, good luck. http://sites.netscape.net/guppyusa/homepage I have a 2500 gallon pond, 3 months old, with a Cal 1200 pump.  It just doesn’t do the job and I want to upgrade it to make my waterfall more substantial.  The pump I choose needs to have an inline connection for the in-pond filter (yes, it’s crummy but it was not my design!).  I want something that is cheap to run and, yes, cheap to buy.  I was considering the Cal 2700 but would appreciate any advice or recommendations. Thanks, Gary

–

Response:

— Hi Gary., I would like to get in on this pump debate. I  do not think it is fair to say one specific pump is better than another one. The answer to your question I think is to do your research on pumps before buying one. The pumps can be divided into at least three groups. Submersible (sealed), submersible (magnetic drive) and in line such as a pool pump. The magnetic drive is very inexpensive on power consumption  but the trade off is a much lower head or less gallons delivered at higher heights. On the plus side the magnetic driven pump has replaceable  parts that the sealed submersible doesn’t have. The in line pump sitting up out of the pond has many advantages that submersible pumps do not have. Some of the options they offer are , offering the ability to draw water off of the bottom of the pond via a bottom drain,

Depending on how the filter is designed, all pumps mentioned above can draw water off the bottom. I have a Beckett submersible in a gravity-fed filter using the Tetra vacuum bottom drain. ~ jan See my ponds thru the seasons: http://jjspond.home.att.net/         ~Keep ‘em Wet!~      Tri-Cities WA    Zone 7a          To e-mail see website – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -definitely more gallonage per hour at very low power consumption.,as low as .88 amps for 1200 gallons per hour.The thing you want to look at first is how much water do you have to move? A small waterfall for example requires 50-60 gallons for every 1 inch wide. so for a waterfall 6 inches wide you would require 300 gallons per hour. If your pond is under 1000 gallons and you have a small filter sitting out of the pond as part of your watercourse you can check the magnetically driven pumps and they will have a chart describing the gallons pumped at each foot of rise.I think you will find that if you can incorporate a submerged pump that in time you will | Roger Pinette | Ponds Beautiful    (604) 534-9133 | http://www.pondsbeautiful.com Hi Gary, I am not familiar with Cal pumps since I was advised years ago to stay away from them. I used Little Giant pumps in the past and found that I never had clear water. If water quality and clear water is your goal you should considered using an outside pump and filter system. There will be people on this NG that will disagree but this is my opinion having used both. Outside filters are allot easier to maintain and outside pumps are really cheap to run 24/7. You may be able to pick up a used pump real cheap. see my filter setup at, good luck. http://sites.netscape.net/guppyusa/homepage I have a 2500 gallon pond, 3 months old, with a Cal 1200 pump.  It just doesn’t do the job and I want to upgrade it to make my waterfall more substantial.  The pump I choose needs to have an inline connection for the in-pond filter (yes, it’s crummy but it was not my design!).  I want something that is cheap to run and, yes, cheap to buy.  I was considering the Cal 2700 but would appreciate any advice or recommendations. Thanks, Gary

Response:

Hi Rennie, Welcome Back…  It’s great to have you back here where you belong. Between that awful Flu  and your server you’ve been absent for some time ….  Glad your doctors and your server got it all together … A hearty Welcome to Roger!    You know what that means Roger?    Bottom line:     You are Porg!!  You will be assimilated.  All efforts to become disentangled will be useless  (or something like that ;o) Nedra / Missouri / Zone 6 —  Nedra’s Ponds: www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/4836/

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — Hi Gary., I would like to get in on this pump debate. I  do not think it is fair to say one specific pump is better than another one. The answer to your question I think is to do your research on pumps before buying one. The pumps can be divided into at least three groups. Submersible (sealed), submersible (magnetic drive) and in line such as a pool pump. The magnetic drive is very inexpensive on power consumption  but the trade off is a much lower head or less gallons delivered at higher heights. On the plus side the magnetic driven pump has replaceable  parts that the sealed submersible doesn’t have. The in line pump sitting up out of the pond has many advantages that submersible pumps do not have. Some of the options they offer are , offering the ability to draw water off of the bottom of the pond via a bottom drain, definitely more gallonage per hour at very low power consumption.,as low as .88 amps for 1200 gallons per hour.The thing you want to look at first is how much water do you have to move? A small waterfall for example requires 50-60 gallons for every 1 inch wide. so for a waterfall 6 inches wide you would require 300 gallons per hour. If your pond is under 1000 gallons and you have a small filter sitting out of the pond as part of your watercourse you can check the magnetically driven pumps and they will have a chart describing the gallons pumped at each foot of rise.I think you will find that if you can incorporate a submerged pump that in time you will | Roger Pinette | Ponds Beautiful    (604) 534-9133 | http://www.pondsbeautiful.com Roger, welcome to the newsgroup. I’m sure all of us in rec.ponds will benefit from your many years of watergardening and Koi expertise… To the regulars in the NG, this is the gentleman that dropped everything he was doing the day of the vandalism to my pond and rushed out to be of assistance trying to get everything working again. Thank you again Roger for all your help….. Rennie in Abbotsford PS…ISP finally finished system re-build and put rec.ponds back on newsserver…nice to be back……

Response:

PS…ISP finally finished system re-build and put rec.ponds back on newsserver…nice to be back……

Rennie, welcome back, almost had to send the lily fairies after you. Unfortunately many seem to be AWOL from rec.ponds. Time to hit the books & magazines and get more pond related topics going. ;o) ~ jan

Response:

My 300 GPH Little Giant lasted 4 years. I don’t remember the model number but it cost about $60 at Home Depot. I replaced it with the same model and expect to get 4 years from the new one also, It runs 24/7 year round. —      Larry Wasserman     Baltimore, Maryland

Response:

A small waterfall for example requires 50-60 gallons for every 1 inch wide. so for a waterfall 6 inches wide you would require 300 gallons per hour.

That seems quite low… don’t most sources recommend about 100 gph per inch of sill width? – Rod

Response:

On the plus side the magnetic driven pump has replaceable  parts that the sealed submersible doesn’t have.

Are we talking about the same things here?  Most people saying ‘magnetic driven’ are talking strictly about Danner’s Supreme Mag-Drive.  iirc, that’s an epoxy sealed unit that has about 3 replaceable parts.  My ’sealed’ submersible has dozens of replacable parts – including the seals. — Derek (www.netcom.ca/~dbrought/pond) rec.ponds FAQ  http://w3.one.net/~rzutt/faq.html You can’t jail a free man, the best you can do is kill him. – Heinlein

Response:

I have a 2500 gallon pond, 3 months old, with a Cal 1200 pump.  It just doesn’t do the job and I want to upgrade it to make my waterfall more substantial.  The pump I choose needs to have an inline connection for the in-pond filter (yes, it’s crummy but it was not my design!).  I want something that is cheap to run and, yes, cheap to buy.  I was considering the Cal 2700 but would appreciate any advice or recommendations. Thanks, Gary

Response:

Hi Gary, I am not familiar with Cal pumps since I was advised years ago to stay away from them. I used Little Giant pumps in the past and found that I never had clear water. If water quality and clear water is your goal you should considered using an outside pump and filter system. There will be people on this NG that will disagree but this is my opinion having used both. Outside filters are allot easier to maintain and outside pumps are really cheap to run 24/7. You may be able to pick up a used pump real cheap. see my filter setup at, good luck. http://sites.netscape.net/guppyusa/homepage – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a 2500 gallon pond, 3 months old, with a Cal 1200 pump.  It just doesn’t do the job and I want to upgrade it to make my waterfall more substantial.  The pump I choose needs to have an inline connection for the in-pond filter (yes, it’s crummy but it was not my design!).  I want something that is cheap to run and, yes, cheap to buy.  I was considering the Cal 2700 but would appreciate any advice or recommendations. Thanks, Gary

Response:

I was considering the Cal 2700 but would appreciate any advice or recommendations.

Cal S2700 draws 3.8 amps at 2680 gph at 1 foot head, and costs $280. http://www.calpump.com/prod03.htm Sequence 1000 K3H1.111 draws 1.7 amps at 2590 gph at 4.4 foot head, and costs $375. http://members.aol.com/mdmpumps/pumpspecs.html Operating costs at average US electrical rates ($0.086/ kwh) are $344 and $154 per year for full time use, respectively.  (Of course, the waterfall doesn’t have to be run full time; a smaller pump would suffice for filtration and aeration.) This is just an example to illustrate that efficiency is more important than purchase price.  In this case, the more expensive pump pays for itself in 6 months operation, and may last longer as well.  There are many other brands besides these two. – Rod

Response:

– Hi Gary., I would like to get in on this pump debate. I  do not think it is fair to say one specific pump is better than another one. The answer to your question I think is to do your research on pumps before buying one. The pumps can be divided into at least three groups. Submersible (sealed), submersible (magnetic drive) and in line such as a pool pump. The magnetic drive is very inexpensive on power consumption  but the trade off is a much lower head or less gallons delivered at higher heights. On the plus side the magnetic driven pump has replaceable  parts that the sealed submersible doesn’t have. The in line pump sitting up out of the pond has many advantages that submersible pumps do not have. Some of the options they offer are , offering the ability to draw water off of the bottom of the pond via a bottom drain, definitely more gallonage per hour at very low power consumption.,as low as .88 amps for 1200 gallons per hour.The thing you want to look at first is how much water do you have to move? A small waterfall for example requires 50-60 gallons for every 1 inch wide. so for a waterfall 6 inches wide you would require 300 gallons per hour. If your pond is under 1000 gallons and you have a small filter sitting out of the pond as part of your watercourse you can check the magnetically driven pumps and they will have a chart describing the gallons pumped at each foot of rise.I think you will find that if you can incorporate a submerged pump that in time you will | Roger Pinette | Ponds Beautiful    (604) 534-9133 | http://www.pondsbeautiful.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Gary, I am not familiar with Cal pumps since I was advised years ago to stay away from them. I used Little Giant pumps in the past and found that I never had clear water. If water quality and clear water is your goal you should considered using an outside pump and filter system. There will be people on this NG that will disagree but this is my opinion having used both. Outside filters are allot easier to maintain and outside pumps are really cheap to run 24/7. You may be able to pick up a used pump real cheap. see my filter setup at, good luck. http://sites.netscape.net/guppyusa/homepage I have a 2500 gallon pond, 3 months old, with a Cal 1200 pump.  It just doesn’t do the job and I want to upgrade it to make my waterfall more substantial.  The pump I choose needs to have an inline connection for the in-pond filter (yes, it’s crummy but it was not my design!).  I want something that is cheap to run and, yes, cheap to buy.  I was considering the Cal 2700 but would appreciate any advice or recommendations. Thanks, Gary

Response:

        Thanks Rogeer for a lot of good info. I’d like to mention for discussion my experience with pumps so far. In our two ponds that we got when we moved, each had a Little Giant submersible pump. Both eventually started leaking coolant and had to be replaced.         They lasted only about 13 months (good work, as they are guaranteed for only a year!). One more lasted about the same. So, I replaced it with an above-ground pool pump with skimmer and filter, and that has done yeoman service, plugging away for two years now with no problem. It cost only a little more than the Little Giant even with skimmer and filter.         The dealers I talked with all said those submersible pumps are not designed to work full time without going belly up after about a year.         Any others had similar experiences?  |  NOTE: If you want to e-mail a reply, please strip |  |  off the letters "OOPS" from my address.           |  |              (Spam preventer)                      | – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text — Hi Gary., I would like to get in on this pump debate. I  do not think it is fair to say one specific pump is better than another one. The answer to your question I think is to do your research on pumps before buying one. The pumps can be divided into at least three groups. Submersible (sealed), submersible (magnetic drive) and in line such as a pool pump. The magnetic drive is very inexpensive on power consumption  but the trade off is a much lower head or less gallons delivered at higher heights. On the plus side the magnetic driven pump has replaceable  parts that the sealed submersible doesn’t have. The in line pump sitting up out of the pond has many advantages that submersible pumps do not have. Some of the options they offer are , offering the ability to draw water off of the bottom of the pond via a bottom drain, definitely more gallonage per hour at very low power consumption.,as low as .88 amps for 1200 gallons per hour.The thing you want to look at first is how much water do you have to move? A small waterfall for example requires 50-60 gallons for every 1 inch wide. so for a waterfall 6 inches wide you would require 300 gallons per hour. If your pond is under 1000 gallons and you have a small filter sitting out of the pond as part of your watercourse you can check the magnetically driven pumps and they will have a chart describing the gallons pumped at each foot of rise.I think you will find that if you can incorporate a submerged pump that in time you will | Roger Pinette | Ponds Beautiful    (604) 534-9133 | http://www.pondsbeautiful.com Hi Gary, I am not familiar with Cal pumps since I was advised years ago to stay away from them. I used Little Giant pumps in the past and found that I never had clear water. If water quality and clear water is your goal you should considered using an outside pump and filter system. There will be people on this NG that will disagree but this is my opinion having used both. Outside filters are allot easier to maintain and outside pumps are really cheap to run 24/7. You may be able to pick up a used pump real cheap. see my filter setup at, good luck. http://sites.netscape.net/guppyusa/homepage I have a 2500 gallon pond, 3 months old, with a Cal 1200 pump.  It just doesn’t do the job and I want to upgrade it to make my waterfall more substantial.  The pump I choose needs to have an inline connection for the in-pond filter (yes, it’s crummy but it was not my design!).  I want something that is cheap to run and, yes, cheap to buy.  I was considering the Cal 2700 but would appreciate any advice or recommendations. Thanks, Gary

–

Response:

— Hi Gary., I would like to get in on this pump debate. I  do not think it is fair to say one specific pump is better than another one. The answer to your question I think is to do your research on pumps before buying one. The pumps can be divided into at least three groups. Submersible (sealed), submersible (magnetic drive) and in line such as a pool pump. The magnetic drive is very inexpensive on power consumption  but the trade off is a much lower head or less gallons delivered at higher heights. On the plus side the magnetic driven pump has replaceable  parts that the sealed submersible doesn’t have. The in line pump sitting up out of the pond has many advantages that submersible pumps do not have. Some of the options they offer are , offering the ability to draw water off of the bottom of the pond via a bottom drain,

Depending on how the filter is designed, all pumps mentioned above can draw water off the bottom. I have a Beckett submersible in a gravity-fed filter using the Tetra vacuum bottom drain. ~ jan See my ponds thru the seasons: http://jjspond.home.att.net/         ~Keep ‘em Wet!~      Tri-Cities WA    Zone 7a          To e-mail see website – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -definitely more gallonage per hour at very low power consumption.,as low as .88 amps for 1200 gallons per hour.The thing you want to look at first is how much water do you have to move? A small waterfall for example requires 50-60 gallons for every 1 inch wide. so for a waterfall 6 inches wide you would require 300 gallons per hour. If your pond is under 1000 gallons and you have a small filter sitting out of the pond as part of your watercourse you can check the magnetically driven pumps and they will have a chart describing the gallons pumped at each foot of rise.I think you will find that if you can incorporate a submerged pump that in time you will | Roger Pinette | Ponds Beautiful    (604) 534-9133 | http://www.pondsbeautiful.com Hi Gary, I am not familiar with Cal pumps since I was advised years ago to stay away from them. I used Little Giant pumps in the past and found that I never had clear water. If water quality and clear water is your goal you should considered using an outside pump and filter system. There will be people on this NG that will disagree but this is my opinion having used both. Outside filters are allot easier to maintain and outside pumps are really cheap to run 24/7. You may be able to pick up a used pump real cheap. see my filter setup at, good luck. http://sites.netscape.net/guppyusa/homepage I have a 2500 gallon pond, 3 months old, with a Cal 1200 pump.  It just doesn’t do the job and I want to upgrade it to make my waterfall more substantial.  The pump I choose needs to have an inline connection for the in-pond filter (yes, it’s crummy but it was not my design!).  I want something that is cheap to run and, yes, cheap to buy.  I was considering the Cal 2700 but would appreciate any advice or recommendations. Thanks, Gary

Response:

Hi Rennie, Welcome Back…  It’s great to have you back here where you belong. Between that awful Flu  and your server you’ve been absent for some time ….  Glad your doctors and your server got it all together … A hearty Welcome to Roger!    You know what that means Roger?    Bottom line:     You are Porg!!  You will be assimilated.  All efforts to become disentangled will be useless  (or something like that ;o) Nedra / Missouri / Zone 6 —  Nedra’s Ponds: www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/4836/

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — Hi Gary., I would like to get in on this pump debate. I  do not think it is fair to say one specific pump is better than another one. The answer to your question I think is to do your research on pumps before buying one. The pumps can be divided into at least three groups. Submersible (sealed), submersible (magnetic drive) and in line such as a pool pump. The magnetic drive is very inexpensive on power consumption  but the trade off is a much lower head or less gallons delivered at higher heights. On the plus side the magnetic driven pump has replaceable  parts that the sealed submersible doesn’t have. The in line pump sitting up out of the pond has many advantages that submersible pumps do not have. Some of the options they offer are , offering the ability to draw water off of the bottom of the pond via a bottom drain, definitely more gallonage per hour at very low power consumption.,as low as .88 amps for 1200 gallons per hour.The thing you want to look at first is how much water do you have to move? A small waterfall for example requires 50-60 gallons for every 1 inch wide. so for a waterfall 6 inches wide you would require 300 gallons per hour. If your pond is under 1000 gallons and you have a small filter sitting out of the pond as part of your watercourse you can check the magnetically driven pumps and they will have a chart describing the gallons pumped at each foot of rise.I think you will find that if you can incorporate a submerged pump that in time you will | Roger Pinette | Ponds Beautiful    (604) 534-9133 | http://www.pondsbeautiful.com Roger, welcome to the newsgroup. I’m sure all of us in rec.ponds will benefit from your many years of watergardening and Koi expertise… To the regulars in the NG, this is the gentleman that dropped everything he was doing the day of the vandalism to my pond and rushed out to be of assistance trying to get everything working again. Thank you again Roger for all your help….. Rennie in Abbotsford PS…ISP finally finished system re-build and put rec.ponds back on newsserver…nice to be back……

Response:

PS…ISP finally finished system re-build and put rec.ponds back on newsserver…nice to be back……

Rennie, welcome back, almost had to send the lily fairies after you. Unfortunately many seem to be AWOL from rec.ponds. Time to hit the books & magazines and get more pond related topics going. ;o) ~ jan

Response:

My 300 GPH Little Giant lasted 4 years. I don’t remember the model number but it cost about $60 at Home Depot. I replaced it with the same model and expect to get 4 years from the new one also, It runs 24/7 year round. —      Larry Wasserman     Baltimore, Maryland

Response:

A small waterfall for example requires 50-60 gallons for every 1 inch wide. so for a waterfall 6 inches wide you would require 300 gallons per hour.

That seems quite low… don’t most sources recommend about 100 gph per inch of sill width? – Rod

Response:

On the plus side the magnetic driven pump has replaceable  parts that the sealed submersible doesn’t have.

Are we talking about the same things here?  Most people saying ‘magnetic driven’ are talking strictly about Danner’s Supreme Mag-Drive.  iirc, that’s an epoxy sealed unit that has about 3 replaceable parts.  My ’sealed’ submersible has dozens of replacable parts – including the seals. — Derek (www.netcom.ca/~dbrought/pond) rec.ponds FAQ  http://w3.one.net/~rzutt/faq.html You can’t jail a free man, the best you can do is kill him. – Heinlein

Response:

I have a 2500 gallon pond, 3 months old, with a Cal 1200 pump.  It just doesn’t do the job and I want to upgrade it to make my waterfall more substantial.  The pump I choose needs to have an inline connection for the in-pond filter (yes, it’s crummy but it was not my design!).  I want something that is cheap to run and, yes, cheap to buy.  I was considering the Cal 2700 but would appreciate any advice or recommendations. Thanks, Gary

Response:

Hi Gary, I am not familiar with Cal pumps since I was advised years ago to stay away from them. I used Little Giant pumps in the past and found that I never had clear water. If water quality and clear water is your goal you should considered using an outside pump and filter system. There will be people on this NG that will disagree but this is my opinion having used both. Outside filters are allot easier to maintain and outside pumps are really cheap to run 24/7. You may be able to pick up a used pump real cheap. see my filter setup at, good luck. http://sites.netscape.net/guppyusa/homepage – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a 2500 gallon pond, 3 months old, with a Cal 1200 pump.  It just doesn’t do the job and I want to upgrade it to make my waterfall more substantial.  The pump I choose needs to have an inline connection for the in-pond filter (yes, it’s crummy but it was not my design!).  I want something that is cheap to run and, yes, cheap to buy.  I was considering the Cal 2700 but would appreciate any advice or recommendations. Thanks, Gary

Response:

I was considering the Cal 2700 but would appreciate any advice or recommendations.

Cal S2700 draws 3.8 amps at 2680 gph at 1 foot head, and costs $280. http://www.calpump.com/prod03.htm Sequence 1000 K3H1.111 draws 1.7 amps at 2590 gph at 4.4 foot head, and costs $375. http://members.aol.com/mdmpumps/pumpspecs.html Operating costs at average US electrical rates ($0.086/ kwh) are $344 and $154 per year for full time use, respectively.  (Of course, the waterfall doesn’t have to be run full time; a smaller pump would suffice for filtration and aeration.) This is just an example to illustrate that efficiency is more important than purchase price.  In this case, the more expensive pump pays for itself in 6 months operation, and may last longer as well.  There are many other brands besides these two. – Rod

Response:

– Hi Gary., I would like to get in on this pump debate. I  do not think it is fair to say one specific pump is better than another one. The answer to your question I think is to do your research on pumps before buying one. The pumps can be divided into at least three groups. Submersible (sealed), submersible (magnetic drive) and in line such as a pool pump. The magnetic drive is very inexpensive on power consumption  but the trade off is a much lower head or less gallons delivered at higher heights. On the plus side the magnetic driven pump has replaceable  parts that the sealed submersible doesn’t have. The in line pump sitting up out of the pond has many advantages that submersible pumps do not have. Some of the options they offer are , offering the ability to draw water off of the bottom of the pond via a bottom drain, definitely more gallonage per hour at very low power consumption.,as low as .88 amps for 1200 gallons per hour.The thing you want to look at first is how much water do you have to move? A small waterfall for example requires 50-60 gallons for every 1 inch wide. so for a waterfall 6 inches wide you would require 300 gallons per hour. If your pond is under 1000 gallons and you have a small filter sitting out of the pond as part of your watercourse you can check the magnetically driven pumps and they will have a chart describing the gallons pumped at each foot of rise.I think you will find that if you can incorporate a submerged pump that in time you will | Roger Pinette | Ponds Beautiful    (604) 534-9133 | http://www.pondsbeautiful.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Gary, I am not familiar with Cal pumps since I was advised years ago to stay away from them. I used Little Giant pumps in the past and found that I never had clear water. If water quality and clear water is your goal you should considered using an outside pump and filter system. There will be people on this NG that will disagree but this is my opinion having used both. Outside filters are allot easier to maintain and outside pumps are really cheap to run 24/7. You may be able to pick up a used pump real cheap. see my filter setup at, good luck. http://sites.netscape.net/guppyusa/homepage I have a 2500 gallon pond, 3 months old, with a Cal 1200 pump.  It just doesn’t do the job and I want to upgrade it to make my waterfall more substantial.  The pump I choose needs to have an inline connection for the in-pond filter (yes, it’s crummy but it was not my design!).  I want something that is cheap to run and, yes, cheap to buy.  I was considering the Cal 2700 but would appreciate any advice or recommendations. Thanks, Gary

Response:

        Thanks Rogeer for a lot of good info. I’d like to mention for discussion my experience with pumps so far. In our two ponds that we got when we moved, each had a Little Giant submersible pump. Both eventually started leaking coolant and had to be replaced.         They lasted only about 13 months (good work, as they are guaranteed for only a year!). One more lasted about the same. So, I replaced it with an above-ground pool pump with skimmer and filter, and that has done yeoman service, plugging away for two years now with no problem. It cost only a little more than the Little Giant even with skimmer and filter.         The dealers I talked with all said those submersible pumps are not designed to work full time without going belly up after about a year.         Any others had similar experiences?  |  NOTE: If you want to e-mail a reply, please strip |  |  off the letters "OOPS" from my address.           |  |              (Spam preventer)                      | – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text — Hi Gary., I would like to get in on this pump debate. I  do not think it is fair to say one specific pump is better than another one. The answer to your question I think is to do your research on pumps before buying one. The pumps can be divided into at least three groups. Submersible (sealed), submersible (magnetic drive) and in line such as a pool pump. The magnetic drive is very inexpensive on power consumption  but the trade off is a much lower head or less gallons delivered at higher heights. On the plus side the magnetic driven pump has replaceable  parts that the sealed submersible doesn’t have. The in line pump sitting up out of the pond has many advantages that submersible pumps do not have. Some of the options they offer are , offering the ability to draw water off of the bottom of the pond via a bottom drain, definitely more gallonage per hour at very low power consumption.,as low as .88 amps for 1200 gallons per hour.The thing you want to look at first is how much water do you have to move? A small waterfall for example requires 50-60 gallons for every 1 inch wide. so for a waterfall 6 inches wide you would require 300 gallons per hour. If your pond is under 1000 gallons and you have a small filter sitting out of the pond as part of your watercourse you can check the magnetically driven pumps and they will have a chart describing the gallons pumped at each foot of rise.I think you will find that if you can incorporate a submerged pump that in time you will | Roger Pinette | Ponds Beautiful    (604) 534-9133 | http://www.pondsbeautiful.com Hi Gary, I am not familiar with Cal pumps since I was advised years ago to stay away from them. I used Little Giant pumps in the past and found that I never had clear water. If water quality and clear water is your goal you should considered using an outside pump and filter system. There will be people on this NG that will disagree but this is my opinion having used both. Outside filters are allot easier to maintain and outside pumps are really cheap to run 24/7. You may be able to pick up a used pump real cheap. see my filter setup at, good luck. http://sites.netscape.net/guppyusa/homepage I have a 2500 gallon pond, 3 months old, with a Cal 1200 pump.  It just doesn’t do the job and I want to upgrade it to make my waterfall more substantial.  The pump I choose needs to have an inline connection for the in-pond filter (yes, it’s crummy but it was not my design!).  I want something that is cheap to run and, yes, cheap to buy.  I was considering the Cal 2700 but would appreciate any advice or recommendations. Thanks, Gary

–

Response:

— Hi Gary., I would like to get in on this pump debate. I  do not think it is fair to say one specific pump is better than another one. The answer to your question I think is to do your research on pumps before buying one. The pumps can be divided into at least three groups. Submersible (sealed), submersible (magnetic drive) and in line such as a pool pump. The magnetic drive is very inexpensive on power consumption  but the trade off is a much lower head or less gallons delivered at higher heights. On the plus side the magnetic driven pump has replaceable  parts that the sealed submersible doesn’t have. The in line pump sitting up out of the pond has many advantages that submersible pumps do not have. Some of the options they offer are , offering the ability to draw water off of the bottom of the pond via a bottom drain,

Depending on how the filter is designed, all pumps mentioned above can draw water off the bottom. I have a Beckett submersible in a gravity-fed filter using the Tetra vacuum bottom drain. ~ jan See my ponds thru the seasons: http://jjspond.home.att.net/         ~Keep ‘em Wet!~      Tri-Cities WA    Zone 7a          To e-mail see website – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -definitely more gallonage per hour at very low power consumption.,as low as .88 amps for 1200 gallons per hour.The thing you want to look at first is how much water do you have to move? A small waterfall for example requires 50-60 gallons for every 1 inch wide. so for a waterfall 6 inches wide you would require 300 gallons per hour. If your pond is under 1000 gallons and you have a small filter sitting out of the pond as part of your watercourse you can check the magnetically driven pumps and they will have a chart describing the gallons pumped at each foot of rise.I think you will find that if you can incorporate a submerged pump that in time you will | Roger Pinette | Ponds Beautiful    (604) 534-9133 | http://www.pondsbeautiful.com Hi Gary, I am not familiar with Cal pumps since I was advised years ago to stay away from them. I used Little Giant pumps in the past and found that I never had clear water. If water quality and clear water is your goal you should considered using an outside pump and filter system. There will be people on this NG that will disagree but this is my opinion having used both. Outside filters are allot easier to maintain and outside pumps are really cheap to run 24/7. You may be able to pick up a used pump real cheap. see my filter setup at, good luck. http://sites.netscape.net/guppyusa/homepage I have a 2500 gallon pond, 3 months old, with a Cal 1200 pump.  It just doesn’t do the job and I want to upgrade it to make my waterfall more substantial.  The pump I choose needs to have an inline connection for the in-pond filter (yes, it’s crummy but it was not my design!).  I want something that is cheap to run and, yes, cheap to buy.  I was considering the Cal 2700 but would appreciate any advice or recommendations. Thanks, Gary

Response:

Hi Rennie, Welcome Back…  It’s great to have you back here where you belong. Between that awful Flu  and your server you’ve been absent for some time ….  Glad your doctors and your server got it all together … A hearty Welcome to Roger!    You know what that means Roger?    Bottom line:     You are Porg!!  You will be assimilated.  All efforts to become disentangled will be useless  (or something like that ;o) Nedra / Missouri / Zone 6 —  Nedra’s Ponds: www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/4836/

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — Hi Gary., I would like to get in on this pump debate. I  do not think it is fair to say one specific pump is better than another one. The answer to your question I think is to do your research on pumps before buying one. The pumps can be divided into at least three groups. Submersible (sealed), submersible (magnetic drive) and in line such as a pool pump. The magnetic drive is very inexpensive on power consumption  but the trade off is a much lower head or less gallons delivered at higher heights. On the plus side the magnetic driven pump has replaceable  parts that the sealed submersible doesn’t have. The in line pump sitting up out of the pond has many advantages that submersible pumps do not have. Some of the options they offer are , offering the ability to draw water off of the bottom of the pond via a bottom drain, definitely more gallonage per hour at very low power consumption.,as low as .88 amps for 1200 gallons per hour.The thing you want to look at first is how much water do you have to move? A small waterfall for example requires 50-60 gallons for every 1 inch wide. so for a waterfall 6 inches wide you would require 300 gallons per hour. If your pond is under 1000 gallons and you have a small filter sitting out of the pond as part of your watercourse you can check the magnetically driven pumps and they will have a chart describing the gallons pumped at each foot of rise.I think you will find that if you can incorporate a submerged pump that in time you will | Roger Pinette | Ponds Beautiful    (604) 534-9133 | http://www.pondsbeautiful.com Roger, welcome to the newsgroup. I’m sure all of us in rec.ponds will benefit from your many years of watergardening and Koi expertise… To the regulars in the NG, this is the gentleman that dropped everything he was doing the day of the vandalism to my pond and rushed out to be of assistance trying to get everything working again. Thank you again Roger for all your help….. Rennie in Abbotsford PS…ISP finally finished system re-build and put rec.ponds back on newsserver…nice to be back……

Response:

PS…ISP finally finished system re-build and put rec.ponds back on newsserver…nice to be back……

Rennie, welcome back, almost had to send the lily fairies after you. Unfortunately many seem to be AWOL from rec.ponds. Time to hit the books & magazines and get more pond related topics going. ;o) ~ jan

Response:

My 300 GPH Little Giant lasted 4 years. I don’t remember the model number but it cost about $60 at Home Depot. I replaced it with the same model and expect to get 4 years from the new one also, It runs 24/7 year round. —      Larry Wasserman     Baltimore, Maryland

Response:

A small waterfall for example requires 50-60 gallons for every 1 inch wide. so for a waterfall 6 inches wide you would require 300 gallons per hour.

That seems quite low… don’t most sources recommend about 100 gph per inch of sill width? – Rod

Response:

On the plus side the magnetic driven pump has replaceable  parts that the sealed submersible doesn’t have.

Are we talking about the same things here?  Most people saying ‘magnetic driven’ are talking strictly about Danner’s Supreme Mag-Drive.  iirc, that’s an epoxy sealed unit that has about 3 replaceable parts.  My ’sealed’ submersible has dozens of replacable parts – including the seals. — Derek (www.netcom.ca/~dbrought/pond) rec.ponds FAQ  http://w3.one.net/~rzutt/faq.html You can’t jail a free man, the best you can do is kill him. – Heinlein

Response:

I have a 2500 gallon pond, 3 months old, with a Cal 1200 pump.  It just doesn’t do the job and I want to upgrade it to make my waterfall more substantial.  The pump I choose needs to have an inline connection for the in-pond filter (yes, it’s crummy but it was not my design!).  I want something that is cheap to run and, yes, cheap to buy.  I was considering the Cal 2700 but would appreciate any advice or recommendations. Thanks, Gary

Response:

Hi Gary, I am not familiar with Cal pumps since I was advised years ago to stay away from them. I used Little Giant pumps in the past and found that I never had clear water. If water quality and clear water is your goal you should considered using an outside pump and filter system. There will be people on this NG that will disagree but this is my opinion having used both. Outside filters are allot easier to maintain and outside pumps are really cheap to run 24/7. You may be able to pick up a used pump real cheap. see my filter setup at, good luck. http://sites.netscape.net/guppyusa/homepage – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a 2500 gallon pond, 3 months old, with a Cal 1200 pump.  It just doesn’t do the job and I want to upgrade it to make my waterfall more substantial.  The pump I choose needs to have an inline connection for the in-pond filter (yes, it’s crummy but it was not my design!).  I want something that is cheap to run and, yes, cheap to buy.  I was considering the Cal 2700 but would appreciate any advice or recommendations. Thanks, Gary

Response:

I was considering the Cal 2700 but would appreciate any advice or recommendations.

Cal S2700 draws 3.8 amps at 2680 gph at 1 foot head, and costs $280. http://www.calpump.com/prod03.htm Sequence 1000 K3H1.111 draws 1.7 amps at 2590 gph at 4.4 foot head, and costs $375. http://members.aol.com/mdmpumps/pumpspecs.html Operating costs at average US electrical rates ($0.086/ kwh) are $344 and $154 per year for full time use, respectively.  (Of course, the waterfall doesn’t have to be run full time; a smaller pump would suffice for filtration and aeration.) This is just an example to illustrate that efficiency is more important than purchase price.  In this case, the more expensive pump pays for itself in 6 months operation, and may last longer as well.  There are many other brands besides these two. – Rod

Response:

– Hi Gary., I would like to get in on this pump debate. I  do not think it is fair to say one specific pump is better than another one. The answer to your question I think is to do your research on pumps before buying one. The pumps can be divided into at least three groups. Submersible (sealed), submersible (magnetic drive) and in line such as a pool pump. The magnetic drive is very inexpensive on power consumption  but the trade off is a much lower head or less gallons delivered at higher heights. On the plus side the magnetic driven pump has replaceable  parts that the sealed submersible doesn’t have. The in line pump sitting up out of the pond has many advantages that submersible pumps do not have. Some of the options they offer are , offering the ability to draw water off of the bottom of the pond via a bottom drain, definitely more gallonage per hour at very low power consumption.,as low as .88 amps for 1200 gallons per hour.The thing you want to look at first is how much water do you have to move? A small waterfall for example requires 50-60 gallons for every 1 inch wide. so for a waterfall 6 inches wide you would require 300 gallons per hour. If your pond is under 1000 gallons and you have a small filter sitting out of the pond as part of your watercourse you can check the magnetically driven pumps and they will have a chart describing the gallons pumped at each foot of rise.I think you will find that if you can incorporate a submerged pump that in time you will | Roger Pinette | Ponds Beautiful    (604) 534-9133 | http://www.pondsbeautiful.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Gary, I am not familiar with Cal pumps since I was advised years ago to stay away from them. I used Little Giant pumps in the past and found that I never had clear water. If water quality and clear water is your goal you should considered using an outside pump and filter system. There will be people on this NG that will disagree but this is my opinion having used both. Outside filters are allot easier to maintain and outside pumps are really cheap to run 24/7. You may be able to pick up a used pump real cheap. see my filter setup at, good luck. http://sites.netscape.net/guppyusa/homepage I have a 2500 gallon pond, 3 months old, with a Cal 1200 pump.  It just doesn’t do the job and I want to upgrade it to make my waterfall more substantial.  The pump I choose needs to have an inline connection for the in-pond filter (yes, it’s crummy but it was not my design!).  I want something that is cheap to run and, yes, cheap to buy.  I was considering the Cal 2700 but would appreciate any advice or recommendations. Thanks, Gary

Response:

        Thanks Rogeer for a lot of good info. I’d like to mention for discussion my experience with pumps so far. In our two ponds that we got when we moved, each had a Little Giant submersible pump. Both eventually started leaking coolant and had to be replaced.         They lasted only about 13 months (good work, as they are guaranteed for only a year!). One more lasted about the same. So, I replaced it with an above-ground pool pump with skimmer and filter, and that has done yeoman service, plugging away for two years now with no problem. It cost only a little more than the Little Giant even with skimmer and filter.         The dealers I talked with all said those submersible pumps are not designed to work full time without going belly up after about a year.         Any others had similar experiences?  |  NOTE: If you want to e-mail a reply, please strip |  |  off the letters "OOPS" from my address.           |  |              (Spam preventer)                      | – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text — Hi Gary., I would like to get in on this pump debate. I  do not think it is fair to say one specific pump is better than another one. The answer to your question I think is to do your research on pumps before buying one. The pumps can be divided into at least three groups. Submersible (sealed), submersible (magnetic drive) and in line such as a pool pump. The magnetic drive is very inexpensive on power consumption  but the trade off is a much lower head or less gallons delivered at higher heights. On the plus side the magnetic driven pump has replaceable  parts that the sealed submersible doesn’t have. The in line pump sitting up out of the pond has many advantages that submersible pumps do not have. Some of the options they offer are , offering the ability to draw water off of the bottom of the pond via a bottom drain, definitely more gallonage per hour at very low power consumption.,as low as .88 amps for 1200 gallons per hour.The thing you want to look at first is how much water do you have to move? A small waterfall for example requires 50-60 gallons for every 1 inch wide. so for a waterfall 6 inches wide you would require 300 gallons per hour. If your pond is under 1000 gallons and you have a small filter sitting out of the pond as part of your watercourse you can check the magnetically driven pumps and they will have a chart describing the gallons pumped at each foot of rise.I think you will find that if you can incorporate a submerged pump that in time you will | Roger Pinette | Ponds Beautiful    (604) 534-9133 | http://www.pondsbeautiful.com Hi Gary, I am not familiar with Cal pumps since I was advised years ago to stay away from them. I used Little Giant pumps in the past and found that I never had clear water. If water quality and clear water is your goal you should considered using an outside pump and filter system. There will be people on this NG that will disagree but this is my opinion having used both. Outside filters are allot easier to maintain and outside pumps are really cheap to run 24/7. You may be able to pick up a used pump real cheap. see my filter setup at, good luck. http://sites.netscape.net/guppyusa/homepage I have a 2500 gallon pond, 3 months old, with a Cal 1200 pump.  It just doesn’t do the job and I want to upgrade it to make my waterfall more substantial.  The pump I choose needs to have an inline connection for the in-pond filter (yes, it’s crummy but it was not my design!).  I want something that is cheap to run and, yes, cheap to buy.  I was considering the Cal 2700 but would appreciate any advice or recommendations. Thanks, Gary

–

Response:

— Hi Gary., I would like to get in on this pump debate. I  do not think it is fair to say one specific pump is better than another one. The answer to your question I think is to do your research on pumps before buying one. The pumps can be divided into at least three groups. Submersible (sealed), submersible (magnetic drive) and in line such as a pool pump. The magnetic drive is very inexpensive on power consumption  but the trade off is a much lower head or less gallons delivered at higher heights. On the plus side the magnetic driven pump has replaceable  parts that the sealed submersible doesn’t have. The in line pump sitting up out of the pond has many advantages that submersible pumps do not have. Some of the options they offer are , offering the ability to draw water off of the bottom of the pond via a bottom drain,

Depending on how the filter is designed, all pumps mentioned above can draw water off the bottom. I have a Beckett submersible in a gravity-fed filter using the Tetra vacuum bottom drain. ~ jan See my ponds thru the seasons: http://jjspond.home.att.net/         ~Keep ‘em Wet!~      Tri-Cities WA    Zone 7a          To e-mail see website – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -definitely more gallonage per hour at very low power consumption.,as low as .88 amps for 1200 gallons per hour.The thing you want to look at first is how much water do you have to move? A small waterfall for example requires 50-60 gallons for every 1 inch wide. so for a waterfall 6 inches wide you would require 300 gallons per hour. If your pond is under 1000 gallons and you have a small filter sitting out of the pond as part of your watercourse you can check the magnetically driven pumps and they will have a chart describing the gallons pumped at each foot of rise.I think you will find that if you can incorporate a submerged pump that in time you will | Roger Pinette | Ponds Beautiful    (604) 534-9133 | http://www.pondsbeautiful.com Hi Gary, I am not familiar with Cal pumps since I was advised years ago to stay away from them. I used Little Giant pumps in the past and found that I never had clear water. If water quality and clear water is your goal you should considered using an outside pump and filter system. There will be people on this NG that will disagree but this is my opinion having used both. Outside filters are allot easier to maintain and outside pumps are really cheap to run 24/7. You may be able to pick up a used pump real cheap. see my filter setup at, good luck. http://sites.netscape.net/guppyusa/homepage I have a 2500 gallon pond, 3 months old, with a Cal 1200 pump.  It just doesn’t do the job and I want to upgrade it to make my waterfall more substantial.  The pump I choose needs to have an inline connection for the in-pond filter (yes, it’s crummy but it was not my design!).  I want something that is cheap to run and, yes, cheap to buy.  I was considering the Cal 2700 but would appreciate any advice or recommendations. Thanks, Gary

Response:

Hi Rennie, Welcome Back…  It’s great to have you back here where you belong. Between that awful Flu  and your server you’ve been absent for some time ….  Glad your doctors and your server got it all together … A hearty Welcome to Roger!    You know what that means Roger?    Bottom line:     You are Porg!!  You will be assimilated.  All efforts to become disentangled will be useless  (or something like that ;o) Nedra / Missouri / Zone 6 —  Nedra’s Ponds: www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/4836/

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — Hi Gary., I would like to get in on this pump debate. I  do not think it is fair to say one specific pump is better than another one. The answer to your question I think is to do your research on pumps before buying one. The pumps can be divided into at least three groups. Submersible (sealed), submersible (magnetic drive) and in line such as a pool pump. The magnetic drive is very inexpensive on power consumption  but the trade off is a much lower head or less gallons delivered at higher heights. On the plus side the magnetic driven pump has replaceable  parts that the sealed submersible doesn’t have. The in line pump sitting up out of the pond has many advantages that submersible pumps do not have. Some of the options they offer are , offering the ability to draw water off of the bottom of the pond via a bottom drain, definitely more gallonage per hour at very low power consumption.,as low as .88 amps for 1200 gallons per hour.The thing you want to look at first is how much water do you have to move? A small waterfall for example requires 50-60 gallons for every 1 inch wide. so for a waterfall 6 inches wide you would require 300 gallons per hour. If your pond is under 1000 gallons and you have a small filter sitting out of the pond as part of your watercourse you can check the magnetically driven pumps and they will have a chart describing the gallons pumped at each foot of rise.I think you will find that if you can incorporate a submerged pump that in time you will | Roger Pinette | Ponds Beautiful    (604) 534-9133 | http://www.pondsbeautiful.com Roger, welcome to the newsgroup. I’m sure all of us in rec.ponds will benefit from your many years of watergardening and Koi expertise… To the regulars in the NG, this is the gentleman that dropped everything he was doing the day of the vandalism to my pond and rushed out to be of assistance trying to get everything working again. Thank you again Roger for all your help….. Rennie in Abbotsford PS…ISP finally finished system re-build and put rec.ponds back on newsserver…nice to be back……

Response:

PS…ISP finally finished system re-build and put rec.ponds back on newsserver…nice to be back……

Rennie, welcome back, almost had to send the lily fairies after you. Unfortunately many seem to be AWOL from rec.ponds. Time to hit the books & magazines and get more pond related topics going. ;o) ~ jan

Response:

My 300 GPH Little Giant lasted 4 years. I don’t remember the model number but it cost about $60 at Home Depot. I replaced it with the same model and expect to get 4 years from the new one also, It runs 24/7 year round. —      Larry Wasserman     Baltimore, Maryland

Response:

A small waterfall for example requires 50-60 gallons for every 1 inch wide. so for a waterfall 6 inches wide you would require 300 gallons per hour.

That seems quite low… don’t most sources recommend about 100 gph per inch of sill width? – Rod

Response:

On the plus side the magnetic driven pump has replaceable  parts that the sealed submersible doesn’t have.

Are we talking about the same things here?  Most people saying ‘magnetic driven’ are talking strictly about Danner’s Supreme Mag-Drive.  iirc, that’s an epoxy sealed unit that has about 3 replaceable parts.  My ’sealed’ submersible has dozens of replacable parts – including the seals. — Derek (www.netcom.ca/~dbrought/pond) rec.ponds FAQ  http://w3.one.net/~rzutt/faq.html You can’t jail a free man, the best you can do is kill him. – Heinlein

Response:

I have a 2500 gallon pond, 3 months old, with a Cal 1200 pump.  It just doesn’t do the job and I want to upgrade it to make my waterfall more substantial.  The pump I choose needs to have an inline connection for the in-pond filter (yes, it’s crummy but it was not my design!).  I want something that is cheap to run and, yes, cheap to buy.  I was considering the Cal 2700 but would appreciate any advice or recommendations. Thanks, Gary

Response:

Hi Gary, I am not familiar with Cal pumps since I was advised years ago to stay away from them. I used Little Giant pumps in the past and found that I never had clear water. If water quality and clear water is your goal you should considered using an outside pump and filter system. There will be people on this NG that will disagree but this is my opinion having used both. Outside filters are allot easier to maintain and outside pumps are really cheap to run 24/7. You may be able to pick up a used pump real cheap. see my filter setup at, good luck. http://sites.netscape.net/guppyusa/homepage – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a 2500 gallon pond, 3 months old, with a Cal 1200 pump.  It just doesn’t do the job and I want to upgrade it to make my waterfall more substantial.  The pump I choose needs to have an inline connection for the in-pond filter (yes, it’s crummy but it was not my design!).  I want something that is cheap to run and, yes, cheap to buy.  I was considering the Cal 2700 but would appreciate any advice or recommendations. Thanks, Gary

Response:

I was considering the Cal 2700 but would appreciate any advice or recommendations.

Cal S2700 draws 3.8 amps at 2680 gph at 1 foot head, and costs $280. http://www.calpump.com/prod03.htm Sequence 1000 K3H1.111 draws 1.7 amps at 2590 gph at 4.4 foot head, and costs $375. http://members.aol.com/mdmpumps/pumpspecs.html Operating costs at average US electrical rates ($0.086/ kwh) are $344 and $154 per year for full time use, respectively.  (Of course, the waterfall doesn’t have to be run full time; a smaller pump would suffice for filtration and aeration.) This is just an example to illustrate that efficiency is more important than purchase price.  In this case, the more expensive pump pays for itself in 6 months operation, and may last longer as well.  There are many other brands besides these two. – Rod

Response:

– Hi Gary., I would like to get in on this pump debate. I  do not think it is fair to say one specific pump is better than another one. The answer to your question I think is to do your research on pumps before buying one. The pumps can be divided into at least three groups. Submersible (sealed), submersible (magnetic drive) and in line such as a pool pump. The magnetic drive is very inexpensive on power consumption  but the trade off is a much lower head or less gallons delivered at higher heights. On the plus side the magnetic driven pump has replaceable  parts that the sealed submersible doesn’t have. The in line pump sitting up out of the pond has many advantages that submersible pumps do not have. Some of the options they offer are , offering the ability to draw water off of the bottom of the pond via a bottom drain, definitely more gallonage per hour at very low power consumption.,as low as .88 amps for 1200 gallons per hour.The thing you want to look at first is how much water do you have to move? A small waterfall for example requires 50-60 gallons for every 1 inch wide. so for a waterfall 6 inches wide you would require 300 gallons per hour. If your pond is under 1000 gallons and you have a small filter sitting out of the pond as part of your watercourse you can check the magnetically driven pumps and they will have a chart describing the gallons pumped at each foot of rise.I think you will find that if you can incorporate a submerged pump that in time you will | Roger Pinette | Ponds Beautiful    (604) 534-9133 | http://www.pondsbeautiful.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Gary, I am not familiar with Cal pumps since I was advised years ago to stay away from them. I used Little Giant pumps in the past and found that I never had clear water. If water quality and clear water is your goal you should considered using an outside pump and filter system. There will be people on this NG that will disagree but this is my opinion having used both. Outside filters are allot easier to maintain and outside pumps are really cheap to run 24/7. You may be able to pick up a used pump real cheap. see my filter setup at, good luck. http://sites.netscape.net/guppyusa/homepage I have a 2500 gallon pond, 3 months old, with a Cal 1200 pump.  It just doesn’t do the job and I want to upgrade it to make my waterfall more substantial.  The pump I choose needs to have an inline connection for the in-pond filter (yes, it’s crummy but it was not my design!).  I want something that is cheap to run and, yes, cheap to buy.  I was considering the Cal 2700 but would appreciate any advice or recommendations. Thanks, Gary

Response:

        Thanks Rogeer for a lot of good info. I’d like to mention for discussion my experience with pumps so far. In our two ponds that we got when we moved, each had a Little Giant submersible pump. Both eventually started leaking coolant and had to be replaced.         They lasted only about 13 months (good work, as they are guaranteed for only a year!). One more lasted about the same. So, I replaced it with an above-ground pool pump with skimmer and filter, and that has done yeoman service, plugging away for two years now with no problem. It cost only a little more than the Little Giant even with skimmer and filter.         The dealers I talked with all said those submersible pumps are not designed to work full time without going belly up after about a year.         Any others had similar experiences?  |  NOTE: If you want to e-mail a reply, please strip |  |  off the letters "OOPS" from my address.           |  |              (Spam preventer)                      | – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text — Hi Gary., I would like to get in on this pump debate. I  do not think it is fair to say one specific pump is better than another one. The answer to your question I think is to do your research on pumps before buying one. The pumps can be divided into at least three groups. Submersible (sealed), submersible (magnetic drive) and in line such as a pool pump. The magnetic drive is very inexpensive on power consumption  but the trade off is a much lower head or less gallons delivered at higher heights. On the plus side the magnetic driven pump has replaceable  parts that the sealed submersible doesn’t have. The in line pump sitting up out of the pond has many advantages that submersible pumps do not have. Some of the options they offer are , offering the ability to draw water off of the bottom of the pond via a bottom drain, definitely more gallonage per hour at very low power consumption.,as low as .88 amps for 1200 gallons per hour.The thing you want to look at first is how much water do you have to move? A small waterfall for example requires 50-60 gallons for every 1 inch wide. so for a waterfall 6 inches wide you would require 300 gallons per hour. If your pond is under 1000 gallons and you have a small filter sitting out of the pond as part of your watercourse you can check the magnetically driven pumps and they will have a chart describing the gallons pumped at each foot of rise.I think you will find that if you can incorporate a submerged pump that in time you will | Roger Pinette | Ponds Beautiful    (604) 534-9133 | http://www.pondsbeautiful.com Hi Gary, I am not familiar with Cal pumps since I was advised years ago to stay away from them. I used Little Giant pumps in the past and found that I never had clear water. If water quality and clear water is your goal you should considered using an outside pump and filter system. There will be people on this NG that will disagree but this is my opinion having used both. Outside filters are allot easier to maintain and outside pumps are really cheap to run 24/7. You may be able to pick up a used pump real cheap. see my filter setup at, good luck. http://sites.netscape.net/guppyusa/homepage I have a 2500 gallon pond, 3 months old, with a Cal 1200 pump.  It just doesn’t do the job and I want to upgrade it to make my waterfall more substantial.  The pump I choose needs to have an inline connection for the in-pond filter (yes, it’s crummy but it was not my design!).  I want something that is cheap to run and, yes, cheap to buy.  I was considering the Cal 2700 but would appreciate any advice or recommendations. Thanks, Gary

–

Response:

— Hi Gary., I would like to get in on this pump debate. I  do not think it is fair to say one specific pump is better than another one. The answer to your question I think is to do your research on pumps before buying one. The pumps can be divided into at least three groups. Submersible (sealed), submersible (magnetic drive) and in line such as a pool pump. The magnetic drive is very inexpensive on power consumption  but the trade off is a much lower head or less gallons delivered at higher heights. On the plus side the magnetic driven pump has replaceable  parts that the sealed submersible doesn’t have. The in line pump sitting up out of the pond has many advantages that submersible pumps do not have. Some of the options they offer are , offering the ability to draw water off of the bottom of the pond via a bottom drain,

Depending on how the filter is designed, all pumps mentioned above can draw water off the bottom. I have a Beckett submersible in a gravity-fed filter using the Tetra vacuum bottom drain. ~ jan See my ponds thru the seasons: http://jjspond.home.att.net/         ~Keep ‘em Wet!~      Tri-Cities WA    Zone 7a          To e-mail see website – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -definitely more gallonage per hour at very low power consumption.,as low as .88 amps for 1200 gallons per hour.The thing you want to look at first is how much water do you have to move? A small waterfall for example requires 50-60 gallons for every 1 inch wide. so for a waterfall 6 inches wide you would require 300 gallons per hour. If your pond is under 1000 gallons and you have a small filter sitting out of the pond as part of your watercourse you can check the magnetically driven pumps and they will have a chart describing the gallons pumped at each foot of rise.I think you will find that if you can incorporate a submerged pump that in time you will | Roger Pinette | Ponds Beautiful    (604) 534-9133 | http://www.pondsbeautiful.com Hi Gary, I am not familiar with Cal pumps since I was advised years ago to stay away from them. I used Little Giant pumps in the past and found that I never had clear water. If water quality and clear water is your goal you should considered using an outside pump and filter system. There will be people on this NG that will disagree but this is my opinion having used both. Outside filters are allot easier to maintain and outside pumps are really cheap to run 24/7. You may be able to pick up a used pump real cheap. see my filter setup at, good luck. http://sites.netscape.net/guppyusa/homepage I have a 2500 gallon pond, 3 months old, with a Cal 1200 pump.  It just doesn’t do the job and I want to upgrade it to make my waterfall more substantial.  The pump I choose needs to have an inline connection for the in-pond filter (yes, it’s crummy but it was not my design!).  I want something that is cheap to run and, yes, cheap to buy.  I was considering the Cal 2700 but would appreciate any advice or recommendations. Thanks, Gary

Response:

Hi Rennie, Welcome Back…  It’s great to have you back here where you belong. Between that awful Flu  and your server you’ve been absent for some time ….  Glad your doctors and your server got it all together … A hearty Welcome to Roger!    You know what that means Roger?    Bottom line:     You are Porg!!  You will be assimilated.  All efforts to become disentangled will be useless  (or something like that ;o) Nedra / Missouri / Zone 6 —  Nedra’s Ponds: www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/4836/

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — Hi Gary., I would like to get in on this pump debate. I  do not think it is fair to say one specific pump is better than another one. The answer to your question I think is to do your research on pumps before buying one. The pumps can be divided into at least three groups. Submersible (sealed), submersible (magnetic drive) and in line such as a pool pump. The magnetic drive is very inexpensive on power consumption  but the trade off is a much lower head or less gallons delivered at higher heights. On the plus side the magnetic driven pump has replaceable  parts that the sealed submersible doesn’t have. The in line pump sitting up out of the pond has many advantages that submersible pumps do not have. Some of the options they offer are , offering the ability to draw water off of the bottom of the pond via a bottom drain, definitely more gallonage per hour at very low power consumption.,as low as .88 amps for 1200 gallons per hour.The thing you want to look at first is how much water do you have to move? A small waterfall for example requires 50-60 gallons for every 1 inch wide. so for a waterfall 6 inches wide you would require 300 gallons per hour. If your pond is under 1000 gallons and you have a small filter sitting out of the pond as part of your watercourse you can check the magnetically driven pumps and they will have a chart describing the gallons pumped at each foot of rise.I think you will find that if you can incorporate a submerged pump that in time you will | Roger Pinette | Ponds Beautiful    (604) 534-9133 | http://www.pondsbeautiful.com Roger, welcome to the newsgroup. I’m sure all of us in rec.ponds will benefit from your many years of watergardening and Koi expertise… To the regulars in the NG, this is the gentleman that dropped everything he was doing the day of the vandalism to my pond and rushed out to be of assistance trying to get everything working again. Thank you again Roger for all your help….. Rennie in Abbotsford PS…ISP finally finished system re-build and put rec.ponds back on newsserver…nice to be back……

Response:

PS…ISP finally finished system re-build and put rec.ponds back on newsserver…nice to be back……

Rennie, welcome back, almost had to send the lily fairies after you. Unfortunately many seem to be AWOL from rec.ponds. Time to hit the books & magazines and get more pond related topics going. ;o) ~ jan

Response:

My 300 GPH Little Giant lasted 4 years. I don’t remember the model number but it cost about $60 at Home Depot. I replaced it with the same model and expect to get 4 years from the new one also, It runs 24/7 year round. —      Larry Wasserman     Baltimore, Maryland

Response:

A small waterfall for example requires 50-60 gallons for every 1 inch wide. so for a waterfall 6 inches wide you would require 300 gallons per hour.

That seems quite low… don’t most sources recommend about 100 gph per inch of sill width? – Rod

Response:

On the plus side the magnetic driven pump has replaceable  parts that the sealed submersible doesn’t have.

Are we talking about the same things here?  Most people saying ‘magnetic driven’ are talking strictly about Danner’s Supreme Mag-Drive.  iirc, that’s an epoxy sealed unit that has about 3 replaceable parts.  My ’sealed’ submersible has dozens of replacable parts – including the seals. — Derek (www.netcom.ca/~dbrought/pond) rec.ponds FAQ  http://w3.one.net/~rzutt/faq.html You can’t jail a free man, the best you can do is kill him. – Heinlein

Response:

I have a 2500 gallon pond, 3 months old, with a Cal 1200 pump.  It just doesn’t do the job and I want to upgrade it to make my waterfall more substantial.  The pump I choose needs to have an inline connection for the in-pond filter (yes, it’s crummy but it was not my design!).  I want something that is cheap to run and, yes, cheap to buy.  I was considering the Cal 2700 but would appreciate any advice or recommendations. Thanks, Gary

Response:

Hi Gary, I am not familiar with Cal pumps since I was advised years ago to stay away from them. I used Little Giant pumps in the past and found that I never had clear water. If water quality and clear water is your goal you should considered using an outside pump and filter system. There will be people on this NG that will disagree but this is my opinion having used both. Outside filters are allot easier to maintain and outside pumps are really cheap to run 24/7. You may be able to pick up a used pump real cheap. see my filter setup at, good luck. http://sites.netscape.net/guppyusa/homepage – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a 2500 gallon pond, 3 months old, with a Cal 1200 pump.  It just doesn’t do the job and I want to upgrade it to make my waterfall more substantial.  The pump I choose needs to have an inline connection for the in-pond filter (yes, it’s crummy but it was not my design!).  I want something that is cheap to run and, yes, cheap to buy.  I was considering the Cal 2700 but would appreciate any advice or recommendations. Thanks, Gary

Response:

I was considering the Cal 2700 but would appreciate any advice or recommendations.

Cal S2700 draws 3.8 amps at 2680 gph at 1 foot head, and costs $280. http://www.calpump.com/prod03.htm Sequence 1000 K3H1.111 draws 1.7 amps at 2590 gph at 4.4 foot head, and costs $375. http://members.aol.com/mdmpumps/pumpspecs.html Operating costs at average US electrical rates ($0.086/ kwh) are $344 and $154 per year for full time use, respectively.  (Of course, the waterfall doesn’t have to be run full time; a smaller pump would suffice for filtration and aeration.) This is just an example to illustrate that efficiency is more important than purchase price.  In this case, the more expensive pump pays for itself in 6 months operation, and may last longer as well.  There are many other brands besides these two. – Rod

Response:

– Hi Gary., I would like to get in on this pump debate. I  do not think it is fair to say one specific pump is better than another one. The answer to your question I think is to do your research on pumps before buying one. The pumps can be divided into at least three groups. Submersible (sealed), submersible (magnetic drive) and in line such as a pool pump. The magnetic drive is very inexpensive on power consumption  but the trade off is a much lower head or less gallons delivered at higher heights. On the plus side the magnetic driven pump has replaceable  parts that the sealed submersible doesn’t have. The in line pump sitting up out of the pond has many advantages that submersible pumps do not have. Some of the options they offer are , offering the ability to draw water off of the bottom of the pond via a bottom drain, definitely more gallonage per hour at very low power consumption.,as low as .88 amps for 1200 gallons per hour.The thing you want to look at first is how much water do you have to move? A small waterfall for example requires 50-60 gallons for every 1 inch wide. so for a waterfall 6 inches wide you would require 300 gallons per hour. If your pond is under 1000 gallons and you have a small filter sitting out of the pond as part of your watercourse you can check the magnetically driven pumps and they will have a chart describing the gallons pumped at each foot of rise.I think you will find that if you can incorporate a submerged pump that in time you will | Roger Pinette | Ponds Beautiful    (604) 534-9133 | http://www.pondsbeautiful.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Gary, I am not familiar with Cal pumps since I was advised years ago to stay away from them. I used Little Giant pumps in the past and found that I never had clear water. If water quality and clear water is your goal you should considered using an outside pump and filter system. There will be people on this NG that will disagree but this is my opinion having used both. Outside filters are allot easier to maintain and outside pumps are really cheap to run 24/7. You may be able to pick up a used pump real cheap. see my filter setup at, good luck. http://sites.netscape.net/guppyusa/homepage I have a 2500 gallon pond, 3 months old, with a Cal 1200 pump.  It just doesn’t do the job and I want to upgrade it to make my waterfall more substantial.  The pump I choose needs to have an inline connection for the in-pond filter (yes, it’s crummy but it was not my design!).  I want something that is cheap to run and, yes, cheap to buy.  I was considering the Cal 2700 but would appreciate any advice or recommendations. Thanks, Gary

Response:

        Thanks Rogeer for a lot of good info. I’d like to mention for discussion my experience with pumps so far. In our two ponds that we got when we moved, each had a Little Giant submersible pump. Both eventually started leaking coolant and had to be replaced.         They lasted only about 13 months (good work, as they are guaranteed for only a year!). One more lasted about the same. So, I replaced it with an above-ground pool pump with skimmer and filter, and that has done yeoman service, plugging away for two years now with no problem. It cost only a little more than the Little Giant even with skimmer and filter.         The dealers I talked with all said those submersible pumps are not designed to work full time without going belly up after about a year.         Any others had similar experiences?  |  NOTE: If you want to e-mail a reply, please strip |  |  off the letters "OOPS" from my address.           |  |              (Spam preventer)                      | – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text — Hi Gary., I would like to get in on this pump debate. I  do not think it is fair to say one specific pump is better than another one. The answer to your question I think is to do your research on pumps before buying one. The pumps can be divided into at least three groups. Submersible (sealed), submersible (magnetic drive) and in line such as a pool pump. The magnetic drive is very inexpensive on power consumption  but the trade off is a much lower head or less gallons delivered at higher heights. On the plus side the magnetic driven pump has replaceable  parts that the sealed submersible doesn’t have. The in line pump sitting up out of the pond has many advantages that submersible pumps do not have. Some of the options they offer are , offering the ability to draw water off of the bottom of the pond via a bottom drain, definitely more gallonage per hour at very low power consumption.,as low as .88 amps for 1200 gallons per hour.The thing you want to look at first is how much water do you have to move? A small waterfall for example requires 50-60 gallons for every 1 inch wide. so for a waterfall 6 inches wide you would require 300 gallons per hour. If your pond is under 1000 gallons and you have a small filter sitting out of the pond as part of your watercourse you can check the magnetically driven pumps and they will have a chart describing the gallons pumped at each foot of rise.I think you will find that if you can incorporate a submerged pump that in time you will | Roger Pinette | Ponds Beautiful    (604) 534-9133 | http://www.pondsbeautiful.com Hi Gary, I am not familiar with Cal pumps since I was advised years ago to stay away from them. I used Little Giant pumps in the past and found that I never had clear water. If water quality and clear water is your goal you should considered using an outside pump and filter system. There will be people on this NG that will disagree but this is my opinion having used both. Outside filters are allot easier to maintain and outside pumps are really cheap to run 24/7. You may be able to pick up a used pump real cheap. see my filter setup at, good luck. http://sites.netscape.net/guppyusa/homepage I have a 2500 gallon pond, 3 months old, with a Cal 1200 pump.  It just doesn’t do the job and I want to upgrade it to make my waterfall more substantial.  The pump I choose needs to have an inline connection for the in-pond filter (yes, it’s crummy but it was not my design!).  I want something that is cheap to run and, yes, cheap to buy.  I was considering the Cal 2700 but would appreciate any advice or recommendations. Thanks, Gary

–

Response:

— Hi Gary., I would like to get in on this pump debate. I  do not think it is fair to say one specific pump is better than another one. The answer to your question I think is to do your research on pumps before buying one. The pumps can be divided into at least three groups. Submersible (sealed), submersible (magnetic drive) and in line such as a pool pump. The magnetic drive is very inexpensive on power consumption  but the trade off is a much lower head or less gallons delivered at higher heights. On the plus side the magnetic driven pump has replaceable  parts that the sealed submersible doesn’t have. The in line pump sitting up out of the pond has many advantages that submersible pumps do not have. Some of the options they offer are , offering the ability to draw water off of the bottom of the pond via a bottom drain,

Depending on how the filter is designed, all pumps mentioned above can draw water off the bottom. I have a Beckett submersible in a gravity-fed filter using the Tetra vacuum bottom drain. ~ jan See my ponds thru the seasons: http://jjspond.home.att.net/         ~Keep ‘em Wet!~      Tri-Cities WA    Zone 7a          To e-mail see website – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -definitely more gallonage per hour at very low power consumption.,as low as .88 amps for 1200 gallons per hour.The thing you want to look at first is how much water do you have to move? A small waterfall for example requires 50-60 gallons for every 1 inch wide. so for a waterfall 6 inches wide you would require 300 gallons per hour. If your pond is under 1000 gallons and you have a small filter sitting out of the pond as part of your watercourse you can check the magnetically driven pumps and they will have a chart describing the gallons pumped at each foot of rise.I think you will find that if you can incorporate a submerged pump that in time you will | Roger Pinette | Ponds Beautiful    (604) 534-9133 | http://www.pondsbeautiful.com Hi Gary, I am not familiar with Cal pumps since I was advised years ago to stay away from them. I used Little Giant pumps in the past and found that I never had clear water. If water quality and clear water is your goal you should considered using an outside pump and filter system. There will be people on this NG that will disagree but this is my opinion having used both. Outside filters are allot easier to maintain and outside pumps are really cheap to run 24/7. You may be able to pick up a used pump real cheap. see my filter setup at, good luck. http://sites.netscape.net/guppyusa/homepage I have a 2500 gallon pond, 3 months old, with a Cal 1200 pump.  It just doesn’t do the job and I want to upgrade it to make my waterfall more substantial.  The pump I choose needs to have an inline connection for the in-pond filter (yes, it’s crummy but it was not my design!).  I want something that is cheap to run and, yes, cheap to buy.  I was considering the Cal 2700 but would appreciate any advice or recommendations. Thanks, Gary

Response:

Hi Rennie, Welcome Back…  It’s great to have you back here where you belong. Between that awful Flu  and your server you’ve been absent for some time ….  Glad your doctors and your server got it all together … A hearty Welcome to Roger!    You know what that means Roger?    Bottom line:     You are Porg!!  You will be assimilated.  All efforts to become disentangled will be useless  (or something like that ;o) Nedra / Missouri / Zone 6 —  Nedra’s Ponds: www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/4836/

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — Hi Gary., I would like to get in on this pump debate. I  do not think it is fair to say one specific pump is better than another one. The answer to your question I think is to do your research on pumps before buying one. The pumps can be divided into at least three groups. Submersible (sealed), submersible (magnetic drive) and in line such as a pool pump. The magnetic drive is very inexpensive on power consumption  but the trade off is a much lower head or less gallons delivered at higher heights. On the plus side the magnetic driven pump has replaceable  parts that the sealed submersible doesn’t have. The in line pump sitting up out of the pond has many advantages that submersible pumps do not have. Some of the options they offer are , offering the ability to draw water off of the bottom of the pond via a bottom drain, definitely more gallonage per hour at very low power consumption.,as low as .88 amps for 1200 gallons per hour.The thing you want to look at first is how much water do you have to move? A small waterfall for example requires 50-60 gallons for every 1 inch wide. so for a waterfall 6 inches wide you would require 300 gallons per hour. If your pond is under 1000 gallons and you have a small filter sitting out of the pond as part of your watercourse you can check the magnetically driven pumps and they will have a chart describing the gallons pumped at each foot of rise.I think you will find that if you can incorporate a submerged pump that in time you will | Roger Pinette | Ponds Beautiful    (604) 534-9133 | http://www.pondsbeautiful.com Roger, welcome to the newsgroup. I’m sure all of us in rec.ponds will benefit from your many years of watergardening and Koi expertise… To the regulars in the NG, this is the gentleman that dropped everything he was doing the day of the vandalism to my pond and rushed out to be of assistance trying to get everything working again. Thank you again Roger for all your help….. Rennie in Abbotsford PS…ISP finally finished system re-build and put rec.ponds back on newsserver…nice to be back……

Response:

PS…ISP finally finished system re-build and put rec.ponds back on newsserver…nice to be back……

Rennie, welcome back, almost had to send the lily fairies after you. Unfortunately many seem to be AWOL from rec.ponds. Time to hit the books & magazines and get more pond related topics going. ;o) ~ jan

Response:

My 300 GPH Little Giant lasted 4 years. I don’t remember the model number but it cost about $60 at Home Depot. I replaced it with the same model and expect to get 4 years from the new one also, It runs 24/7 year round. —      Larry Wasserman     Baltimore, Maryland

Response:

A small waterfall for example requires 50-60 gallons for every 1 inch wide. so for a waterfall 6 inches wide you would require 300 gallons per hour.

That seems quite low… don’t most sources recommend about 100 gph per inch of sill width? – Rod

Response:

On the plus side the magnetic driven pump has replaceable  parts that the sealed submersible doesn’t have.

Are we talking about the same things here?  Most people saying ‘magnetic driven’ are talking strictly about Danner’s Supreme Mag-Drive.  iirc, that’s an epoxy sealed unit that has about 3 replaceable parts.  My ’sealed’ submersible has dozens of replacable parts – including the seals. — Derek (www.netcom.ca/~dbrought/pond) rec.ponds FAQ  http://w3.one.net/~rzutt/faq.html You can’t jail a free man, the best you can do is kill him. – Heinlein

Response:

I have a 2500 gallon pond, 3 months old, with a Cal 1200 pump.  It just doesn’t do the job and I want to upgrade it to make my waterfall more substantial.  The pump I choose needs to have an inline connection for the in-pond filter (yes, it’s crummy but it was not my design!).  I want something that is cheap to run and, yes, cheap to buy.  I was considering the Cal 2700 but would appreciate any advice or recommendations. Thanks, Gary

Response:

Hi Gary, I am not familiar with Cal pumps since I was advised years ago to stay away from them. I used Little Giant pumps in the past and found that I never had clear water. If water quality and clear water is your goal you should considered using an outside pump and filter system. There will be people on this NG that will disagree but this is my opinion having used both. Outside filters are allot easier to maintain and outside pumps are really cheap to run 24/7. You may be able to pick up a used pump real cheap. see my filter setup at, good luck. http://sites.netscape.net/guppyusa/homepage – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a 2500 gallon pond, 3 months old, with a Cal 1200 pump.  It just doesn’t do the job and I want to upgrade it to make my waterfall more substantial.  The pump I choose needs to have an inline connection for the in-pond filter (yes, it’s crummy but it was not my design!).  I want something that is cheap to run and, yes, cheap to buy.  I was considering the Cal 2700 but would appreciate any advice or recommendations. Thanks, Gary

Response:

I was considering the Cal 2700 but would appreciate any advice or recommendations.

Cal S2700 draws 3.8 amps at 2680 gph at 1 foot head, and costs $280. http://www.calpump.com/prod03.htm Sequence 1000 K3H1.111 draws 1.7 amps at 2590 gph at 4.4 foot head, and costs $375. http://members.aol.com/mdmpumps/pumpspecs.html Operating costs at average US electrical rates ($0.086/ kwh) are $344 and $154 per year for full time use, respectively.  (Of course, the waterfall doesn’t have to be run full time; a smaller pump would suffice for filtration and aeration.) This is just an example to illustrate that efficiency is more important than purchase price.  In this case, the more expensive pump pays for itself in 6 months operation, and may last longer as well.  There are many other brands besides these two. – Rod

Response:

– Hi Gary., I would like to get in on this pump debate. I  do not think it is fair to say one specific pump is better than another one. The answer to your question I think is to do your research on pumps before buying one. The pumps can be divided into at least three groups. Submersible (sealed), submersible (magnetic drive) and in line such as a pool pump. The magnetic drive is very inexpensive on power consumption  but the trade off is a much lower head or less gallons delivered at higher heights. On the plus side the magnetic driven pump has replaceable  parts that the sealed submersible doesn’t have. The in line pump sitting up out of the pond has many advantages that submersible pumps do not have. Some of the options they offer are , offering the ability to draw water off of the bottom of the pond via a bottom drain, definitely more gallonage per hour at very low power consumption.,as low as .88 amps for 1200 gallons per hour.The thing you want to look at first is how much water do you have to move? A small waterfall for example requires 50-60 gallons for every 1 inch wide. so for a waterfall 6 inches wide you would require 300 gallons per hour. If your pond is under 1000 gallons and you have a small filter sitting out of the pond as part of your watercourse you can check the magnetically driven pumps and they will have a chart describing the gallons pumped at each foot of rise.I think you will find that if you can incorporate a submerged pump that in time you will | Roger Pinette | Ponds Beautiful    (604) 534-9133 | http://www.pondsbeautiful.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Gary, I am not familiar with Cal pumps since I was advised years ago to stay away from them. I used Little Giant pumps in the past and found that I never had clear water. If water quality and clear water is your goal you should considered using an outside pump and filter system. There will be people on this NG that will disagree but this is my opinion having used both. Outside filters are allot easier to maintain and outside pumps are really cheap to run 24/7. You may be able to pick up a used pump real cheap. see my filter setup at, good luck. http://sites.netscape.net/guppyusa/homepage I have a 2500 gallon pond, 3 months old, with a Cal 1200 pump.  It just doesn’t do the job and I want to upgrade it to make my waterfall more substantial.  The pump I choose needs to have an inline connection for the in-pond filter (yes, it’s crummy but it was not my design!).  I want something that is cheap to run and, yes, cheap to buy.  I was considering the Cal 2700 but would appreciate any advice or recommendations. Thanks, Gary

Response:

        Thanks Rogeer for a lot of good info. I’d like to mention for discussion my experience with pumps so far. In our two ponds that we got when we moved, each had a Little Giant submersible pump. Both eventually started leaking coolant and had to be replaced.         They lasted only about 13 months (good work, as they are guaranteed for only a year!). One more lasted about the same. So, I replaced it with an above-ground pool pump with skimmer and filter, and that has done yeoman service, plugging away for two years now with no problem. It cost only a little more than the Little Giant even with skimmer and filter.         The dealers I talked with all said those submersible pumps are not designed to work full time without going belly up after about a year.         Any others had similar experiences?  |  NOTE: If you want to e-mail a reply, please strip |  |  off the letters "OOPS" from my address.           |  |              (Spam preventer)                      | – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text — Hi Gary., I would like to get in on this pump debate. I  do not think it is fair to say one specific pump is better than another one. The answer to your question I think is to do your research on pumps before buying one. The pumps can be divided into at least three groups. Submersible (sealed), submersible (magnetic drive) and in line such as a pool pump. The magnetic drive is very inexpensive on power consumption  but the trade off is a much lower head or less gallons delivered at higher heights. On the plus side the magnetic driven pump has replaceable  parts that the sealed submersible doesn’t have. The in line pump sitting up out of the pond has many advantages that submersible pumps do not have. Some of the options they offer are , offering the ability to draw water off of the bottom of the pond via a bottom drain, definitely more gallonage per hour at very low power consumption.,as low as .88 amps for 1200 gallons per hour.The thing you want to look at first is how much water do you have to move? A small waterfall for example requires 50-60 gallons for every 1 inch wide. so for a waterfall 6 inches wide you would require 300 gallons per hour. If your pond is under 1000 gallons and you have a small filter sitting out of the pond as part of your watercourse you can check the magnetically driven pumps and they will have a chart describing the gallons pumped at each foot of rise.I think you will find that if you can incorporate a submerged pump that in time you will | Roger Pinette | Ponds Beautiful    (604) 534-9133 | http://www.pondsbeautiful.com Hi Gary, I am not familiar with Cal pumps since I was advised years ago to stay away from them. I used Little Giant pumps in the past and found that I never had clear water. If water quality and clear water is your goal you should considered using an outside pump and filter system. There will be people on this NG that will disagree but this is my opinion having used both. Outside filters are allot easier to maintain and outside pumps are really cheap to run 24/7. You may be able to pick up a used pump real cheap. see my filter setup at, good luck. http://sites.netscape.net/guppyusa/homepage I have a 2500 gallon pond, 3 months old, with a Cal 1200 pump.  It just doesn’t do the job and I want to upgrade it to make my waterfall more substantial.  The pump I choose needs to have an inline connection for the in-pond filter (yes, it’s crummy but it was not my design!).  I want something that is cheap to run and, yes, cheap to buy.  I was considering the Cal 2700 but would appreciate any advice or recommendations. Thanks, Gary

–

Response:

— Hi Gary., I would like to get in on this pump debate. I  do not think it is fair to say one specific pump is better than another one. The answer to your question I think is to do your research on pumps before buying one. The pumps can be divided into at least three groups. Submersible (sealed), submersible (magnetic drive) and in line such as a pool pump. The magnetic drive is very inexpensive on power consumption  but the trade off is a much lower head or less gallons delivered at higher heights. On the plus side the magnetic driven pump has replaceable  parts that the sealed submersible doesn’t have. The in line pump sitting up out of the pond has many advantages that submersible pumps do not have. Some of the options they offer are , offering the ability to draw water off of the bottom of the pond via a bottom drain,

Depending on how the filter is designed, all pumps mentioned above can draw water off the bottom. I have a Beckett submersible in a gravity-fed filter using the Tetra vacuum bottom drain. ~ jan See my ponds thru the seasons: http://jjspond.home.att.net/         ~Keep ‘em Wet!~      Tri-Cities WA    Zone 7a          To e-mail see website – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -definitely more gallonage per hour at very low power consumption.,as low as .88 amps for 1200 gallons per hour.The thing you want to look at first is how much water do you have to move? A small waterfall for example requires 50-60 gallons for every 1 inch wide. so for a waterfall 6 inches wide you would require 300 gallons per hour. If your pond is under 1000 gallons and you have a small filter sitting out of the pond as part of your watercourse you can check the magnetically driven pumps and they will have a chart describing the gallons pumped at each foot of rise.I think you will find that if you can incorporate a submerged pump that in time you will | Roger Pinette | Ponds Beautiful    (604) 534-9133 | http://www.pondsbeautiful.com Hi Gary, I am not familiar with Cal pumps since I was advised years ago to stay away from them. I used Little Giant pumps in the past and found that I never had clear water. If water quality and clear water is your goal you should considered using an outside pump and filter system. There will be people on this NG that will disagree but this is my opinion having used both. Outside filters are allot easier to maintain and outside pumps are really cheap to run 24/7. You may be able to pick up a used pump real cheap. see my filter setup at, good luck. http://sites.netscape.net/guppyusa/homepage I have a 2500 gallon pond, 3 months old, with a Cal 1200 pump.  It just doesn’t do the job and I want to upgrade it to make my waterfall more substantial.  The pump I choose needs to have an inline connection for the in-pond filter (yes, it’s crummy but it was not my design!).  I want something that is cheap to run and, yes, cheap to buy.  I was considering the Cal 2700 but would appreciate any advice or recommendations. Thanks, Gary

Response:

Hi Rennie, Welcome Back…  It’s great to have you back here where you belong. Between that awful Flu  and your server you’ve been absent for some time ….  Glad your doctors and your server got it all together … A hearty Welcome to Roger!    You know what that means Roger?    Bottom line:     You are Porg!!  You will be assimilated.  All efforts to become disentangled will be useless  (or something like that ;o) Nedra / Missouri / Zone 6 —  Nedra’s Ponds: www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/4836/

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — Hi Gary., I would like to get in on this pump debate. I  do not think it is fair to say one specific pump is better than another one. The answer to your question I think is to do your research on pumps before buying one. The pumps can be divided into at least three groups. Submersible (sealed), submersible (magnetic drive) and in line such as a pool pump. The magnetic drive is very inexpensive on power consumption  but the trade off is a much lower head or less gallons delivered at higher heights. On the plus side the magnetic driven pump has replaceable  parts that the sealed submersible doesn’t have. The in line pump sitting up out of the pond has many advantages that submersible pumps do not have. Some of the options they offer are , offering the ability to draw water off of the bottom of the pond via a bottom drain, definitely more gallonage per hour at very low power consumption.,as low as .88 amps for 1200 gallons per hour.The thing you want to look at first is how much water do you have to move? A small waterfall for example requires 50-60 gallons for every 1 inch wide. so for a waterfall 6 inches wide you would require 300 gallons per hour. If your pond is under 1000 gallons and you have a small filter sitting out of the pond as part of your watercourse you can check the magnetically driven pumps and they will have a chart describing the gallons pumped at each foot of rise.I think you will find that if you can incorporate a submerged pump that in time you will | Roger Pinette | Ponds Beautiful    (604) 534-9133 | http://www.pondsbeautiful.com Roger, welcome to the newsgroup. I’m sure all of us in rec.ponds will benefit from your many years of watergardening and Koi expertise… To the regulars in the NG, this is the gentleman that dropped everything he was doing the day of the vandalism to my pond and rushed out to be of assistance trying to get everything working again. Thank you again Roger for all your help….. Rennie in Abbotsford PS…ISP finally finished system re-build and put rec.ponds back on newsserver…nice to be back……

Response:

PS…ISP finally finished system re-build and put rec.ponds back on newsserver…nice to be back……

Rennie, welcome back, almost had to send the lily fairies after you. Unfortunately many seem to be AWOL from rec.ponds. Time to hit the books & magazines and get more pond related topics going. ;o) ~ jan

Response:

My 300 GPH Little Giant lasted 4 years. I don’t remember the model number but it cost about $60 at Home Depot. I replaced it with the same model and expect to get 4 years from the new one also, It runs 24/7 year round. —      Larry Wasserman     Baltimore, Maryland

Response:

A small waterfall for example requires 50-60 gallons for every 1 inch wide. so for a waterfall 6 inches wide you would require 300 gallons per hour.

That seems quite low… don’t most sources recommend about 100 gph per inch of sill width? – Rod

Response:

On the plus side the magnetic driven pump has replaceable  parts that the sealed submersible doesn’t have.

Are we talking about the same things here?  Most people saying ‘magnetic driven’ are talking strictly about Danner’s Supreme Mag-Drive.  iirc, that’s an epoxy sealed unit that has about 3 replaceable parts.  My ’sealed’ submersible has dozens of replacable parts – including the seals. — Derek (www.netcom.ca/~dbrought/pond) rec.ponds FAQ  http://w3.one.net/~rzutt/faq.html You can’t jail a free man, the best you can do is kill him. – Heinlein

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Question:

Wellbutrin doesn’t cause sexual side effects!  Effexor XR worked great for me but is a TOTAL b*tch to withdraw from – even if you miss one day you get nauseated and sick – bad news!  It also caused sexual side effects for me, as does Celexa – I would avoid both Celexa and Effexor XR and go for the BuSpar or try Wellbutrin. ~Melissa

Response:

Wellbutrin doesn’t cause sexual side effects!  Effexor XR worked great for me but is a TOTAL b*tch to withdraw from – even if you miss one day you get nauseated and sick – bad news!  It also caused sexual side effects for me, as does Celexa – I would avoid both Celexa and Effexor XR and go for the BuSpar or try Wellbutrin. ~Melissa

 But thats your response to Effexor Melissa. Everyone is different. I have been on Effexor XR now for about 3 months. Last weekend I missed my first daily dose, I was staying at a friends house and was so busy with things going on that I just forgot to take my Effexor. I experienced no side effects at all – none. The next day I took my usual dose of 75mg without noticing anything out of the ordinary. I don’t think you can’t lump everyone into the same catagory – people respond differently. So far Effexor XR has helped me a lot.

Response:

My wife has been suffering from daily anxiety for some time now. It may be related to her diagnoses of multiple sclerosis over a year ago; her menopausal phase; or her hypothyroidism. After taking hormone replacement therapy and synthroid for the thyroid problem, she still has daily anxiety. She has been treating it with Ativan but her doc recommend an anti-depressent. Here’s the problem: her GP recommends Celexa; her neurologist recommends Effexor; and her psychiatrist recommended Buspar (and maybe a second drug as well.) She tried Prozac years ago and it worked well except she lost all interest in sex or orgasm was near impossible. My question is…can anyone give some insight into possible side effects of the 3 ADs mentioned? What might she expect? What about withdrawl from them? Getting off of Prozac was a bitch. Any help would be appreciated.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My wife has been suffering from daily anxiety for some time now. It may be related to her diagnoses of multiple sclerosis over a year ago; her menopausal phase; or her hypothyroidism. After taking hormone replacement therapy and synthroid for the thyroid problem, she still has daily anxiety. She has been treating it with Ativan but her doc recommend an anti-depressent. Here’s the problem: her GP recommends Celexa; her neurologist recommends Effexor; and her psychiatrist recommended Buspar (and maybe a second drug as well.) She tried Prozac years ago and it worked well except she lost all interest in sex or orgasm was near impossible. My question is…can anyone give some insight into possible side effects of the 3 ADs mentioned? What might she expect? What about withdrawl from them? Getting off of Prozac was a bitch. Any help would be appreciated.

Buspar in not like any other anxiety drug and not use for panick attack. It takes effect after a few weeks and does not interfere with the interest in sex. On the contrary, some say that at high dosage, it helps. The only sundesirable side effects i have experienced with Buspar is, sometimes, dizziness and tiredness. Il helps to take the medication with a very large glass of water. If you experience panick attack you could had attivan or something similar for a couple of days. ap

Response:

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It is only the first day of not taking Effexor and I feel like I’m going to die.  My head is pounding, I feel like I’m going to vomit, my eyes hurt, etc…. What can I do to feel better?? Take some Effexor. Are you tapering, or stopping cold turkey? I have been tapering for the last four months.  I went from taking 150 mg a day to 37.5 a day.  My doctor told me stop when I got down to 37.5.

A.  Reports have found people  who tapered down to that level and still have horrific withdrawal symptoms can avert the withdrawal symptoms by switching to an SSRI with a longer half life, then withdrawing from that. B. Reports indicate people may  avert experiencing withdrawals symptoms upon titration from Effexor  by use of Ondansetron, a drug commonly prescribed for the relief of the side effects (nausea etc.) associated with chemotherapy and radiotherapy treatment. See http://www.effexorfx.freeuk.com/webdoc8.htm

Response:

When I went off effexor (I had the nasty withdrawl stuff too)…I opened the capsules and dumped some of the granules out and then closed it back up and swallowed it.  It was hardly scientific, but it worked pretty well.  So Just start trying to dump out around half the granules…then down to maybe 1/4…then maybe try to just stop. Hope that helps. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It is only the first day of not taking Effexor and I feel like I’m going to die.  My head is pounding, I feel like I’m going to vomit, my eyes hurt, etc…. What can I do to feel better??  

Response:

That was exactly my experience. Actually, I got down from 300mg to 37.5mg fast (in two weeks), but it was very hard to quit from there. My doctor added 30mg remeron, and I think that was the trick that helped me get down to 37.5 fast. Adding Remeron now, and then tapering it off too when you got rid of effexor completely might be good idea for you too. I used to get terrible vertigo, and a feeling of  not being here when I tried to quit from 37.5 (even though I was still taking remeron) From there, adding some small dose (2 – 4 mg/day) reboxetine helped me. I felt some vertigo from time to time for the next two months, but they all went away in the end. Don’t worry, you will get rid of it in the end, but ask your doctor to augment it with remeron or some other AD. That would help. cem

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It is only the first day of not taking Effexor and I feel like I’m going to die.  My head is pounding, I feel like I’m going to vomit, my eyes hurt, etc…. What can I do to feel better?? Take some Effexor. Are you tapering, or stopping cold turkey? I have been tapering for the last four months.  I went from taking 150 mg a day to 37.5 a day.  My doctor told me stop when I got down to 37.5.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It is only the first day of not taking Effexor and I feel like I’m going to die.  My head is pounding, I feel like I’m going to vomit, my eyes hurt, etc…. What can I do to feel better?? Take some Effexor. Are you tapering, or stopping cold turkey? I have been tapering for the last four months.  I went from taking 150 mg a day to 37.5 a day.  My doctor told me stop when I got down to 37.5.

Reducing Withdrawal Symptoms —- The following information has been drawn from the medical reports which have been published to date on the withdrawal symptoms associated with dose reduction or discontinuation of venlafaxine and from the feedback which I have received from venlafaxine patients. It is by no means intended to be a recommendation of a particular course of action but is simply given to provide a starting point for discussion between patients and their medical advisors with regard to the options available to reduce the severity of the withdrawal symptoms that are common even on a gradual tapered discontinuance of the drug. It appears plausible that both methods could be used simultaneously. —- 1. The rapid onset and the severity of the withdrawal symptoms on dose reduction or discontinuation of venlafaxine appear to stem from the relatively short half-life of the drug (5 hours). Medical data on the subject (Parker, for example) suggests that the withdrawal symptoms can therefore be reduced by gradually replacing venlafaxine with a longer half-life SSRI antidepressant and to then proceed to discontinue the SSRI. It should be noted that although this method has been reported to have been undertaken successfully, it contradicts the advice given by Wyerth-Ayerst, the manufacturer of venlafaxine, that a "wash-out" period be allowed before starting an SSRI.. However, it should also be noted that Wyerth-Ayerst has only recently acknowledged the potent severity of the withdrawal syndrome on venlafaxine discontinuation or dose reduction (see Medwatch – venlafaxine drug labelling changes) 2. The medical report published by Raby (full text available) reports on the relief of venlafaxine withdrawal symptoms by the use of ondansetron, a drug commonly prescribed for the relief of the side effects (nausea etc.) associated with chemotherapy and radiotherapy treatment. The report also discusses the cause of these withdrawal symptoms and provides an explanation of why their severity appears to be unique to venlafaxine. In the case reported a patient who had been receiving 150 mg daily venlafaxine experienced disabilitating nausea, headaches, diarrhea and anxiety once the dose was reduced below 75 mg daily. Only after ondansetron was given, was the patient able to proceed with the tapering schedule of venlafaxine over several weeks. The only adverse side effect of ondansetron was constipation which was treated with laxatives. There was no reoccurrence of venlafaxine withdrawal symptoms after ondansetron was itself discontinued.

Response:

It is only the first day of not taking Effexor and I feel like I’m going to die.  My head is pounding, I feel like I’m going to vomit, my eyes hurt, etc…. What can I do to feel better??  

Response:

It is only the first day of not taking Effexor and I feel like I’m going to die.  My head is pounding, I feel like I’m going to vomit, my eyes hurt, etc…. What can I do to feel better??

Take some Effexor. Are you tapering, or stopping cold turkey?

Response:

It is only the first day of not taking Effexor and I feel like I’m going to die.  My head is pounding, I feel like I’m going to vomit, my eyes hurt, etc…. What can I do to feel better?? Take some Effexor. Are you tapering, or stopping cold turkey?

I have been tapering for the last four months.  I went from taking 150 mg a day to 37.5 a day.  My doctor told me stop when I got down to 37.5.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It is only the first day of not taking Effexor and I feel like I’m going to die.  My head is pounding, I feel like I’m going to vomit, my eyes hurt, etc…. What can I do to feel better?? Take some Effexor. Are you tapering, or stopping cold turkey? I have been tapering for the last four months.  I went from taking 150 mg a day to 37.5 a day.  My doctor told me stop when I got down to 37.5.

I’m sorry. I hope my first comment wasn’t taken wrong…..it is nevertheless the obvious thing to do. Can you take half again of this lesser dose? Sometimes, taking a small dose of a different antidepressant can help.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It is only the first day of not taking Effexor and I feel like I’m going to die.  My head is pounding, I feel like I’m going to vomit, my eyes hurt, etc…. What can I do to feel better?? Take some Effexor. Are you tapering, or stopping cold turkey? I have been tapering for the last four months.  I went from taking 150 mg a day to 37.5 a day.  My doctor told me stop when I got down to 37.5.

W.J. Giakas, J.M. Davis, Intractable withdrawal from venlafaxine treated with fluoxetine, Psychiatric Annals, February 1997, 27 (2), 85-86 and 92. Authors report three consecutive cases (26-35 year old women) where patients experienced severe withdrawal after discontinuing venlaxfaxine, following treatment ranging from a week or two to seven months: "Repeated attempts at gradually tapering the dosage were unsuccessful and led to intolerable withdrawal sensations."  In these and other cases, authors noted appearance of withdrawal symptoms within a few hours of patient missing a dose. Although, symptoms they saw "are not identical to a fully-fledged psychedelic experience or a true migraine headache, similarity is evident…"  In all cases, venlafaxine was eventually discontinued under cover of fluoxetine, which itself was later withdrawn uneventfully in one of the three cases.

Response:

Question:

Hello everyone, I have severe generalized social phobia and I’m 20 years old. Currently, I’m on Zoloft to help with depression. However, it does not do much for my anxiety. I recently started to consider adding a Benzodiazepine like Klonopin (clonazepam) to help with my anxiety. I mentioned this to my physician and he freaked out. He said it is prescribed on a short-term basis to individuals who do not have generalized anxiety. My physician referred me to a psychiatrist… and I’m probably going to make an appointment tomorrow. My problem is this: My physician kind of made me feel like a drug addict or something. I don’t want the same thing to happen with the psychiatrist. Do most doctors feel this way about Benzodiazepines? Is it a good idea to pursue this? I know therapy is an important factor, and I have been through CBT. Obliviously it didn’t work very well. Right now, I can’t afford therapy on a regular basis. -William

Response:

William wrote:

Hello everyone, I have severe generalized social phobia and I’m 20 years old. Currently, I’m on Zoloft to help with depression. However, it does not do much for my anxiety. I recently started to consider adding a Benzodiazepine like Klonopin (clonazepam) to help with my anxiety. I mentioned this to my physician and he freaked out. He said it is prescribed on a short-term basis to individuals who do not have generalized anxiety.

Yeah it’s used for Epilepsy mainly. But of course it also has a use in treating anxiety. As does xanax which you should also look at. And a whole lot of other drugs as well.

My physician referred me to a psychiatrist… and I’m probably going to make an appointment tomorrow. My problem is this: My physician kind of made me feel like a drug addict or something. I don’t want the same thing to happen with the psychiatrist.

Your not a drug addict for requesting a drug that you believe will relieve your anxiety. Are cancer patients drug addicts when they get chemotherapy on the odd chance it might save their life? Are diabetics drug addicts because they stick a needle in their bodies all the time? Do you know how many billions of dollars could be saved if social anxiety was eliminated from the population? Not to mention how many people would be better off. Do most doctors feel this way

about Benzodiazepines? Is it a good idea to pursue this?

It depends on their training and knowledge of your past history. If you had a history of drug dependence or alchohol abuse almost no doctor would provide you with benzo’s. If you don’t then again it depends on their training and most Pychiatrists are better trained in the use of these drugs than Doctors. IMHO it is a good idea for you to pursue any therapy that is safe for you, as long as it helps you. That includes drug therapies as well as others.

I know therapy is an important factor, and I have been through CBT. Obliviously it didn’t work very well. Right now, I can’t afford therapy on a regular basis.

Yeah it can be so expensive. Richard — Registered Lunatic #100347

Response:

On 5 Feb 2002 23:53:33 -0800, willhk…@earthlink.net (William) wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Hello everyone, I have severe generalized social phobia and I’m 20 years old. Currently, I’m on Zoloft to help with depression. However, it does not do much for my anxiety. I recently started to consider adding a Benzodiazepine like Klonopin (clonazepam) to help with my anxiety. I mentioned this to my physician and he freaked out. He said it is prescribed on a short-term basis to individuals who do not have generalized anxiety. My physician referred me to a psychiatrist… and I’m probably going to make an appointment tomorrow. My problem is this: My physician kind of made me feel like a drug addict or something. I don’t want the same thing to happen with the psychiatrist. Do most doctors feel this way about Benzodiazepines? Is it a good idea to pursue this? I know therapy is an important factor, and I have been through CBT. Obliviously it didn’t work very well. Right now, I can’t afford therapy on a regular basis. -William

Hi William, Is Zoloft the only anti depressant you’ve tried?  I know this doesn’t seem logical, but different brands of ssri anti depressants don’t always have the same effect on people.  If Zoloft isn’t working for your anxiety, you could try Paxil or Celexa.  Just a thought.  BTW, what is your current Zoloft dose? Whether you have or haven’t tried other ssri meds, and at a workable dosage level, adding a benzodiazepine is still a common practice.  I base this comment on my own experience, my previous doctor’s revelations, postings to this group and research.  (My new family doctor, a result of moving to a different state in the U.S., reacted similarly to your MD when I told him what meds I took.  A shrink I subsequently saw did not have a problem and I was given a green light to continue my med regimen.) The big deal with benzos is that they are considered addictive and fall into the controlled substances category, although at the bottom of the list.  Apparently they can be difficult to come off of, if you ever decide to take one, then quit  There is also a concern that users will require increasingly larger doses to attain the same calming effect.  I can’t comment re. any difficulties in quitting a benzo because I’ve never done that.  I can say, though, that once I reached an effective dose level of Xanax several years ago, I have NEVER felt the need to take more to achieve the same anxiety relief.  There is also, at least in my case, no euphoric or high feeling associated with taking a benzo (Valium could be an exception because some people do get a buzz from it.)  If you were to compare the potential addictiveness of benzos with, say, alcohol abuse, it’s like day and night.  Benzos help me and others to function and sometimes lead at least a semblance of a normal life.  In spite of their supposed addictiveness, I can drive, I can work, I can talk to people, and look and feel pretty much ok (well as ok as an sp’ic can be anyway).  OTOH, alcohol abuse ALWAYS involves drinking greater quantities over time to reach the desired effect.  And the side effects can be horrific. Drunks can’t effectively handle even simple tasks and their thinking and judgment are clouded to say the least.  You hear about drunk drivers killing people on the highways all the time, yet this drug is an over the counter purchase.  So far I haven’t read or heard anything about someone killing others or himself as a result of taking benzos. Of the benzos, Klonopin is probably the most subtle in its action.  It has a calming effect, but not the "right now" relief you get within an hour or so of taking something like Xanax.  Klonopin also has a relatively long half life, meaning it stays with you for several hours versus a med like Xanax which begins to poop out after anywhere from 3 hours and up.  Here’s an interesting aside too.  Klonopin was developed to control seizures in people.  A normal daily intake, when taken for seizures,  is somewhere around 10 mg give or take.  However, some people need as much as 20 mg to control their seizures.  When used for anxiety, Klonopin doses range from 1 to 4 mg daily.  Some people undoubtedly take a couple of more mg, but you won’t find anyone even near the dose level needed to control seizures. Here’s the bottom line.  It’s your life.  Anxiety is messing it up. Zoloft, and maybe other ssri anti depressants, plus CBT have not helped.  That pretty much leaves maoi’s and benzos as the remaining choices in the prescription med category.  Maoi’s are considered the last choice because they have a lot of restrictions, particularly as relates to what you can safely eat, and significant side effects. Asking for a benzo such as Klonopin is a reasonable request to try to gain some degree of normalcy with your life.  Ask your family doctor which is preferable:  living in anxiety hell forever or taking a benzo to get some relief.   If you don’t get the answer you want, there are other doctors.  And yes, I know how hard it is to see a new doctor and discuss your anxiety disorder, but it could come to that. If you see the psychiatrist, there’s a good probability you’ll get an ok to try Klonopin.  S/he’ll probably want to see you periodically to see if you’re getting relief and to evaluate if dosage should be changed.  Your starting dose might be 1, maybe 2 mg per day, taken in equal amounts spread out over your waking hours.  If that doesn’t cut it, you can always request a higher dose, also to be split up evenly over each day.  One last comment about Klonopin. I didn’t realize this until I started taking it, but unlike Xanax, you don’t gain its full benefit until after you’ve been on it for a week or so.  In spite of this lag, you’ll still probably notice a calming effect the first day of use. You might want to do some research on the web or elsewhere for Klonopin and anxiety so you’ll be somewhat knowledgeable about it when you see the shrink.  Good luck. Doug

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Thanks Doug and Richard for your advice… I feel much better about the whole thing now.

Is Zoloft the only anti depressant you’ve tried?

Actually, I’ve been on Paxil as well. At one point I was on 100mg of Zoloft, but I started to get side-effects with that dosage. I could try other SSRI’s. I’m aware that this could take anywhere up to a couple of months to notice a difference. In my situation, I don’t really have the luxury of time to experiment with all the SSRI’s out there.

If you see the psychiatrist, there’s a good probability you’ll get an ok to try Klonopin.

I made an appointment with a psychiatrist this morning. It’s on Friday. This is the psychiatrist that my physician referred me to. Do you think that my physician can interfere in my choice of medication? Or do you think it’s a better idea to get a psychiatrist who is not connected to my doctor? Thanks, -William

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William, On 6 Feb 2002 12:11:53 -0800, willhk…@earthlink.net (William) wrote:

Thanks Doug and Richard for your advice… I feel much better about the whole thing now. Is Zoloft the only anti depressant you’ve tried? Actually, I’ve been on Paxil as well. At one point I was on 100mg of Zoloft, but I started to get side-effects with that dosage. I could try other SSRI’s. I’m aware that this could take anywhere up to a couple of months to notice a difference. In my situation, I don’t really have the luxury of time to experiment with all the SSRI’s out there.

OK.

If you see the psychiatrist, there’s a good probability you’ll get an ok to try Klonopin. I made an appointment with a psychiatrist this morning. It’s on Friday. This is the psychiatrist that my physician referred me to. Do you think that my physician can interfere in my choice of medication? Or do you think it’s a better idea to get a psychiatrist who is not connected to my doctor?

I saw the psychiatrist that my new family doctor recommended and he okayed my drugs.  Had the shrink said no, I would have sought out another psychiatrist and another till I got what I wanted.  In my case I’ve been taking Xanax for over 15 years so it’s not like I have no experience with it or don’t know about its negatives. If you believe your family MD has your best interests at heart, there’s no harm in seeing whoever he recommends.  I’m inclined to think he’s passing the buck due more to a lack of knowledge than because he’s dead set against your taking Klonopin.  I mean he could have just said no and let that be the end of it, not even recommending that you see a shrink.  One other thing to consider is that the psychiatrist is going to have a lot more familiarity with your illness and meds that can help you than your MD does. Doug – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Thanks, -William

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Stan, M8, I hear ya loud and clear. I have tried every type of AD for just over 2 years now… with limited (being generous) success. I have come to terms with the fact that Benzos are my "insulin" so to speak. I am happy living with them for the rest of my life. Stan can u tell me something…. u seem to have been on them much longer than me….. I am curious to know whether you have had any long term, irreversible side-effects. Thanx, Russ. "Stan D." <es…@swipnet.se

wrote in message

news:%QCJ5.4726$Z75.12141@nntpserver.swip.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Benzos provide quick and effective help for my SP (hand tremor).  I shall always remember the first time I took them, back in the sixties. I had

never

before experienced that a drug could help.  Meprobamates and barbiturates were the common and useless drugs then.  When I take the benzo, the SP

worry

and fear disappear.  I start enjoying socialising in a way that feels natural.  This is where the soma comes in, the Saturday drug that people take in Huxley

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have used valerian, esp. before I finally broke down, admitted I had a mood disorder, and was put on depakote, then lamictal (another mood stabilizer with fewer side effects — for me — than the depakote).  The valerian made me sleepy consistently, and I felt physically tired and mentally vague, which perhaps mitigated my mood disorder by making me too sleepy to notice how depressed I was.  It didn’t do anything when I was manic, however.  The mania was far stronger than the relatively mild effects of the valerian (I never took a high dose of it).  On the other hand, I’ve never tried it with effexor or wellbutrin, both of which I now take and both of which are fairly activating so I suppose they would offset the dullness factor.  I see no reason why you shouldn’t try it if your pdoc won’t give you a mood stabilizer and you feel you need one.  Why won’t your pdoc give you one?  or an anti-psychotic?  Does he/she not trust your reporting of symptoms that would indicate a need for them?  Maybe you just need a new, and hopefully better-informed, pdoc.  I’ve had five pdocs since beginning medication and not one of them has ever had any problems with prescribing anti-convulsants as mood stabilizers.  What about lithium?  No question that it’s a mood stabilizer, and nothing else.  Don’t overdose on the valerian, though. Start low and see how it goes.  But if I were in your place I’d find another pdoc. Let us know how it goes for you.  Luck. –Allegra

Thanks for the info Allegra… I was thinking of trying Valerian… since my pdoc thinks that i don’t need any kind of medicataion im kinda on my own… wanted to see if ti would help. Tried a veyr low dose for sleep, but it din’t have any effect – wonder if a much larger one would help… Don’t know about Jame’s pdoc, but mine says that there’s nothing biochemically wrong with me… so theres nothing for a pill to fix… how’s that? a pdoc who DOESN’T want to shove medication down your throat!!! last year I wouild have been thinking WOW, but now i’m not so sure… i mean, this guy saw me on Tuesday when i was about readuy to cut my wrists, and told me that my issues would deal with themselves gfiven time! — Kaji/Karenji – dragon/human Shifter depending on mood… *New Dragon Code COMING (one blue moon or another) *ICQ 55339701 – feel free to message me to chat *http://www.labyrinth.net.au/~gsj/Index.html *Wingsister to Viriatha, Tanith, Hespa and Caitlin/Amberynth *Lover of Chocolate, and Occasional Giver of Chocolate Points *Self-Appointed Guardian of the Southern Spring *Keeper of the Sunnydale Lost and Found

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Hey folks: Well, since my pdoc won’t give me some good mood stabalizers or low dose antopsychotic, I am gonna try my 150mg Effexor XR, with a benzo, and Vallerian Root which I HOPE acts in SOME kind of mood stabalizing way. Ya, I know…far from being anything "medically" correct, but it’s much better than the previous cocktail of benzos and codiene I was taking. One thing I noticed with Effexor though is that it can really mess up your memory and alertness all day long. What I may try and do is beg, beg, beg my family doc to take on my psch meds for now, and ask to give a shot at another mood stabalizer or antipsychotic with Effexor or Welbutrin. My family doc was much more enthusiastic about using a mood stabalizer, he started me on depakote, than using benzos. The pdocs don’t seem to want to use ANYTHING not stricly "labled", as I see there is that whole controversy over using different meds for bp. (I guess even if the anticonvulsants are officially "labled" for use in bp, many pdocs still won’t use them.) Yes, there must be a bit of caution in mix and match pharmacy, but we are only here for a limited time, and I want to live as healthy, happy life like everybody does. I think even pdocs (some..not all) don’t realize how painful a mental disorder is. Yes, it’s "different" than physical pain, put the intensity is just as bad. James

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I have used valerian, esp. before I finally broke down, admitted I had a mood disorder, and was put on depakote, then lamictal (another mood stabilizer with fewer side effects — for me — than the depakote).  The valerian made me sleepy consistently, and I felt physically tired and mentally vague, which perhaps mitigated my mood disorder by making me too sleepy to notice how depressed I was.  It didn’t do anything when I was manic, however.  The mania was far stronger than the relatively mild effects of the valerian (I never took a high dose of it).  On the other hand, I’ve never tried it with effexor or wellbutrin, both of which I now take and both of which are fairly activating so I suppose they would offset the dullness factor.  I see no reason why you shouldn’t try it if your pdoc won’t give you a mood stabilizer and you feel you need one.  Why won’t your pdoc give you one?  or an anti-psychotic?  Does he/she not trust your reporting of symptoms that would indicate a need for them?  Maybe you just need a new, and hopefully better-informed, pdoc.  I’ve had five pdocs since beginning medication and not one of them has ever had any problems with prescribing anti-convulsants as mood stabilizers.  What about lithium?  No question that it’s a mood stabilizer, and nothing else.  Don’t overdose on the valerian, though. Start low and see how it goes.  But if I were in your place I’d find another pdoc. Let us know how it goes for you.  Luck. –Allegra

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey folks: Well, since my pdoc won’t give me some good mood stabalizers or low dose antopsychotic, I am gonna try my 150mg Effexor XR, with a benzo, and Vallerian Root which I HOPE acts in SOME kind of mood stabalizing way. Ya, I know…far from being anything "medically" correct, but it’s much better than the previous cocktail of benzos and codiene I was taking. One thing I noticed with Effexor though is that it can really mess up your memory and alertness all day long. What I may try and do is beg, beg, beg my family doc to take on my psch meds for now, and ask to give a shot at another mood stabalizer or antipsychotic with Effexor or Welbutrin. My family doc was much more enthusiastic about using a mood stabalizer, he started me on depakote, than using benzos. The pdocs don’t seem to want to use ANYTHING not stricly "labled", as I see there is that whole controversy over using different meds for bp. (I guess even if the anticonvulsants are officially "labled" for use in bp, many pdocs still won’t use them.) Yes, there must be a bit of caution in mix and match pharmacy, but we are only here for a limited time, and I want to live as healthy, happy life like everybody does. I think even pdocs (some..not all) don’t realize how painful a mental disorder is. Yes, it’s "different" than physical pain, put the intensity is just as bad. James

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Audrey– Ditto— until I cut out the aspartame- and started the vitamins ect– I was the world’s worst…. now– I have about an evening– and then I am pretty equananimous (sp)… no offense taken Richie

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LOL– well I forget that sometimes people don’t know what gender I am….. no offense taken– but with a DD in the boob department- ya bet I am all female— <<g ( I am thrilled to report that they are getting smaller though!!) Knowing what to do for ourselves and doing it are two different things– I am rushing headlong into TOM and noticeing( sp) that my temper is flaring— now where did I put those ruddy supplements…… I get mail that is  "Mr" all the time– infact in the early 70’s I even got a draft notice from uncle sam– my mom called and they decided I didn’t need to take the physical…..lol richie who is fighting TOM  tooth and nail— I want to see that first 50 GONE

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I think I’m going to down a gallon of chamomile tea, just to get rid of the stress of never knowing these days when TOM is going to show up. Hasn’t been around for almost a year, and 2 weeks into lcing, here it is! Anyone got any magic potions for keeping it away? I liked it gone! LOL! (Yeah, I know…the most magic of all potions–getting a little bit older and it’ll stay gone permanently <grin). CAT 248/237/135

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : Aspartame– do you use it?  It and caffine are notorious culprits in making PMS : worse.. Add more B vitimins– especially b-6 and b-12– Evening primrose/borage : oil– good helpers– : and nothing like some cammomile tea to help relax you. : Richie no offense, but if Richie is short for Richard, you really have no way to understand what we’re talking about here… Chamomile tea doesn’t relax anyone suffering from these kinds of symptoms.  Maybe tequila, but not tea.  ;-) anyway, I was hoping to hear from some women who had some success with certain supplements… audrey 170/143/130?        *  when the going gets weird, -dams at voicenet.com      *    the weird turn pro… (remove ‘nospam’)         *         -raoul duke Actually Richie is a girl, and she is also correct about the chamomile tea. Chamomile helps with my cramps and lessens the pain. Also I stay away from caffeine while on TOM because they make my symptoms about 10 times worse…. Tricia "Rae" 158/142/120 There is only one success – to be able to spend your life in your own way.      ~~ Anonymous~~

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Thanks, Tammy, I know all about that, since I’ve been using ibuprofen (specifically Motrin 800 mg.) for over 13 years. I was more concerned with the damage to my kidneys, since it can also cause damage there. By the way, have you read any of the new research that has found ulcers to be caused by bacteria, rather than stress and/or medications, and cured with the use of both acid reducers and antibiotics? This doesn’t really apply to ulcers caused by overuse of NSAIDs, but it was of interest to me, since the last ulcer I had was treated by my doctor with anti-stress meds (over 20 years ago). CAT 248/237/135 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In article et, I’ve just about lived on Motrin for over 15 years, and I think as long as you take it with food, it’s not particular about what kind of food. Unless I’m mistaken, you just need something in your stomach when you take it to keep it from boring a hole through your stomach lining, and any kind of food will work, so wouldn’t necessarily have to be bread or milk. Meat should work, too, I’d think. At least it does for me. The father of a friend of my daughter’s just spent 2 days in the hospital and lost four pints of blood (and nearly died) to a bleeding ulcer……the culprit?  Ibuprophin.  He was taking 3 at a time for back pain, often on an empty stomach and sometimes taking aspirin as well.  Just a word of warning to be careful with the long time use or overuse of any NSAIDs. Tammy PP since 7/8/98 212/196/138 (or size 12, whichever comes first)  bf 49.5/49/23% (had to change my stats now that I’ve got my new Tanita Scale I’ll take a double bacon cheeseburger with no bun please.

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LOL! I got one of those, too, richie, from having my h.s. transcript listed under my initials instead of full name (V.J.B., instead of Victoria J.)…but the idiots at the draft board, in their infinite wisdom, made me go all the way to the induction center for the physical!!! Of course, being the only female in the middle of about 70 guys on the bus (and then more than 500 at the center) made for a very interesting day trip up to Amarillo! LOL! CAT

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -LOL– well I forget that sometimes people don’t know what gender I am….. no offense taken– but with a DD in the boob department- ya bet I am all female— <<g ( I am thrilled to report that they are getting smaller though!!) Knowing what to do for ourselves and doing it are two different things– I am rushing headlong into TOM and noticeing( sp) that my temper is flaring— now where did I put those ruddy supplements…… I get mail that is  "Mr" all the time– infact in the early 70’s I even got a draft notice from uncle sam– my mom called and they decided I didn’t need to take the physical…..lol richie who is fighting TOM  tooth and nail— I want to see that first 50 GONE

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Richie – I’m SOOOO sorry!!  Guess you do get that a lot. Just makes me nuts when guys – even well-intentioned ones – try to give me advice on problems like these I’ve been using ibuprofen since before it was available OTC for cramps – still use 600mg  most of the time, too, and that’s not something that feels worse these days… It’s the irritability, mood swings & bloating. I’ve actually added some legal 15-ish g. treats lately because my life is very stressful at the moment and it just helps – maybe I need to time those!  (our house is for sale…dealing with being neat & clean & showable 24×7 is the worst…especially for someone who works 40+ hours a week outside of the house, as well as all that needs doing inside!) Past couple months, after adding some extra carb treats & watching the calendar, I’ve noticed I lose 2-3 lbs. right after my TOM, and then stop losing no matter waht for the 10-14 days preceeding & during.  Soon as it’s done, whoosh, 2 more lbs. down… This time I’ll try some more legal treats and some strong chamomile tea!  Glad I don’t have to live with me audrey 170/143/130?

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Victoria, I’ve just about lived on Motrin for over 15 years, and I think as long as you take it with food, it’s not particular about what kind of food. Unless I’m mistaken, you just need something in your stomach when you take it to keep it from boring a hole through your stomach lining, and any kind of food will work, so wouldn’t necessarily have to be bread or milk. Meat should work, too, I’d think. At least it does for me. CAT 248/237/135

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Hi there,    When I have my TOM, I have to take motrin to reduce the awful cramps and the Motrin doesn’t work well unless I take it with food.  In the middle of the night I run into problems, because for years I have taken it with milk and bread.  I am at day 60 of Atkins, have lost 20 pounds, and don’t want my weight loss to stall.  I hear about Wasa crackers- are they low in carb? Maybe that would be an idea? Victoria 192-172-150 lc since 7-8-98

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For cramps, however, I would mix 1 tsp chamomile with 1 tsp catnip, let that steep for 10 minutes…and if that doesn’t work, try valerian.

Ack! valerian root smells like perfumed manure! The cats love it, though.  I give them some when they get too rowdy at night. Personally, I’ll stick with ibuprofen for the cramps. I’d need a damned strong herb to put a dent in them. (and in my experience, a name brand like Motrin or Advil dissolves and starts working at least a half hour faster than cheap generic ibuprofen….must be the coatings and fillers) —                 "There’s a seeker born every minute."

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I agree with you, Jamie, although for my arthritis, I’ve even given up on Advil. Now I take 800mg Motrin, and I usually take 3-4 of them at a time.

I’ve had almost no arthritis symptoms since lowcarbing, but I generally went for naproxen when I did, (despite its tendency to bore holes in a stomach less than full). —                 "There’s a seeker born every minute."

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Hi there,     When I have my TOM, I have to take motrin to reduce the awful cramps and the Motrin doesn’t work well unless I take it with food.  In the middle of the night I run into problems, because for years I have taken it with milk and bread.  I am at day 60 of Atkins, have lost 20 pounds, and don’t want my weight loss to stall.  I hear about Wasa crackers- are they low in carb? Maybe that would be an idea? Victoria 192-172-150 lc since 7-8-98

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : Aspartame– do you use it?  It and caffine are notorious culprits in making PMS : worse.. Add more B vitimins– especially b-6 and b-12– Evening primrose/borage : oil– good helpers– : and nothing like some cammomile tea to help relax you.   : Richie no offense, but if Richie is short for Richard, you really have no way to understand what we’re talking about here… Chamomile tea doesn’t relax anyone suffering from these kinds of symptoms.  Maybe tequila, but not tea.  ;-) anyway, I was hoping to hear from some women who had some success with certain supplements… audrey 170/143/130?        *  when the going gets weird, -dams at voicenet.com      *    the weird turn pro… (remove ‘nospam’)         *         -raoul duke

Actually Richie is a girl, and she is also correct about the chamomile tea. Chamomile helps with my cramps and lessens the pain. Also I stay away from caffeine while on TOM because they make my symptoms about 10 times worse…. Tricia "Rae" 158/142/120 There is only one success – to be able to spend your life in your own way.       ~~ Anonymous~~

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This PMS thing and low-carbing is driving me bananas!  After my induction period and a weight loss of 10 lbs, I regained 1 lb. – even while remaining low-carb and exercising 4x per week. I don’t want to sabatoge this thing, but the carbs are calling and my temper is flaring.  I’ve never had this problem before.  Heck, I used to swear I didn’t suffer from PMS. St. John’s Wort has been mentioned here a few times, but I’ve heard leary reports about it lately.  What else will help? Desperate AJ 250/240/150 (Sunday) 250/241/150 (today )

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Aspartame– do you use it?  It and caffine are notorious culprits in making PMS worse.. Add more B vitimins– especially b-6 and b-12– Evening primrose/borage oil– good helpers– and nothing like some cammomile tea to help relax you.   Hope this helps Richie

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writes: Any of you out there having a similar problem, and found any "solution" other than just dealing with it?  I’m not into experimenting with herbal remedies that may interfere with my weight loss, so figured I’d ask here!

off this morning!) I just saw something on the news about calcium and PMS.  Heard it late to help me this month, but I’m going to try upping my calcium intake (supplements) for next couple of months and see if that helps.  I don’t really like this stranger living in my brain for over a week! Tammy PP since 7/8/98 212/196/138 (or size 12, whichever comes first)  bf 49.5/49/23% (had to change my stats now that I’ve got my new Tanita Scale I’ll take a double bacon cheeseburger with no bun please.

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: Aspartame– do you use it?  It and caffine are notorious culprits in making PMS : worse.. Add more B vitimins– especially b-6 and b-12– Evening primrose/borage : oil– good helpers– : and nothing like some cammomile tea to help relax you.   : Richie no offense, but if Richie is short for Richard, you really have no way to understand what we’re talking about here… Chamomile tea doesn’t relax anyone suffering from these kinds of symptoms.  Maybe tequila, but not tea.  ;-) anyway, I was hoping to hear from some women who had some success with certain supplements… audrey 170/143/130?        *  when the going gets weird, -dams at voicenet.com      *    the weird turn pro…  (remove ‘nospam’)         *         -raoul duke

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: no offense, but if Richie is short for Richard, you really have Er…Richie’s a gal. =) : Chamomile tea doesn’t relax anyone suffering from these kinds of : symptoms.  Maybe tequila, but not tea.  ;-) I agree, chamomile has never helped me, but I was raised by a mom who believed Medication was the answer to everything and all herbal remedies have failed me. My body’s just too resisitant to the more subtle forms of healing. =) BUT I know lots of other girls for whom it works fine. : anyway, I was hoping to hear from some women who had some : success with certain supplements… Try the extra carbs. I waited until the week _after_ my TOM to start induction just because I suspected this might be a problem. I’m not a fan of taking supplements unless it’s a last resort. Of course, this is probably due to my theory "If you can solve a problem by eating, do so." Lydia 145/137/126 — Lydia Ash                         /       I don’t want the world. http://falcon.cc.ukans.edu/~ash /

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Audrey– A lot of us gals have problems with TOM…(a recent poster called it a visit from Aunt Flo. Loved that!). I’ve been on the pill and regular as clockwork for ten years. This WOE changed all that. Sometimes I’m early, sometimes I’m late. Usually the flow is heavier, whenever it arrives. I do need more carbs the week before (sometimes, but not as often, during). My solution: I allow myself 10-15g extra carbs for just as long as I need them. The trick is being honest with yourself when you need them. And make sure they’re "legal" carbs. I don’t allow myself "bad" carbs at all, even one or two animal crackers. I make sure the carbs are what I’d eat normally, just perhaps in higher quantity. Some other legal extra carb ideas: Wasa crackers with cream cheese and diabetic jam Iced coffee with extra cream and sweetener 1/2 c blueberries with a dash of cream 1/2 c cottage cheese with 1 T diabetic jam SF pudding made with cream and water You get the idea… =) Hope that helps. Lydia 145/137/126 — Lydia Ash                         /       I don’t want the world. http://falcon.cc.ukans.edu/~ash /

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I’ve been on the pill and regular as clockwork for ten years. This WOE changed all that. Sometimes I’m early, sometimes I’m late. Usually the flow is heavier, whenever it arrives.

Copy that.  My first month on Atkins I had my cycle for a month!!!  It’s coming at it’s normal time now, but way heavier then ever before. ~Jo 141/128/115

Response:

I agree with you, Jamie, although for my arthritis, I’ve even given up on Advil. Now I take 800mg Motrin, and I usually take 3-4 of them at a time. CAT 248/237/135 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – For cramps, however, I would mix 1 tsp chamomile with 1 tsp catnip, let that steep for 10 minutes…and if that doesn’t work, try valerian. Ack! valerian root smells like perfumed manure! The cats love it, though.  I give them some when they get too rowdy at night. Personally, I’ll stick with ibuprofen for the cramps. I’d need a damned strong herb to put a dent in them. (and in my experience, a name brand like Motrin or Advil dissolves and starts working at least a half hour faster than cheap generic ibuprofen….must be the coatings and fillers) —  "There’s a seeker born every minute."

Response:

: Chamomile tea doesn’t relax anyone suffering from these kinds of : symptoms.  Maybe tequila, but not tea.  ;-) I agree, chamomile has never helped me, but I was raised by a mom who believed Medication was the answer to everything and all herbal remedies have failed me. My body’s just too resisitant to the more subtle forms of healing. =)

Depends are you brewing it "medicinal" strength?  If not, it won’t work. 2 teaspoons (or 2 teabags) in 8 oz. water…let steep for 10 minutes. That’s medicinal strength herbal tea.  Anything else is just a nice drink. For cramps, however, I would mix 1 tsp chamomile with 1 tsp catnip, let that steep for 10 minutes…and if that doesn’t work, try valerian. Harriet 221/211/160 **Vegetarians eat vegetables….beware humanitarians** Remove ‘carbs’ for email reply

Response:

: no offense, but if Richie is short for Richard, you really have Er…Richie’s a gal. =) : Chamomile tea doesn’t relax anyone suffering from these kinds of : symptoms.  Maybe tequila, but not tea.  ;-) I agree, chamomile has never helped me, but I was raised by a mom who believed Medication was the answer to everything and all herbal remedies have failed me. My body’s just too resisitant to the more subtle forms of healing. =)

Chamomile makes me relax!!!  I USED to have PMS and depression like mad before low-carb.  I was on zoloft for 2 years and since starting this WOL, I stopped zoloft cold turkey and started herbal supplements (primrose oil, etc.).  Now, only 2.5 weeks into low-carb, I feel better than I have in my life.  BTW, melatonin tea is a cozy bedtime treat : Wummin~ 201/196/150 Visit my homepage:  http://www.geocities.com/~wummin

Response:

Audrey, I noticed the same thing about PMS now that I’m low carbing – much more intense, and seems to last a bit longer.   I’ve been on St. John’s Wort for months, including pre-low carb, so obviously that isn’t helping with PMS.  I started Evening Primrose Oil and Progest Creme recently, in the hopes that these will help. Barb

Response:

Wummin, my doc tried me on Prozac, Paxil, Zoloft, Wellbutrin, Effexor and finally Parnate, which is an MAOI and quite dangerous if taken with certain foods and/or other drugs. I finally–like you, against her advice–quit cold turkey and started using St. John’s Wort. That, combined with this WOE, has just about solved my problem with depression, from which I suffered since I was about 13. If I’d know all this then, I might have had a happier time as a teen. Of course, my grandmother is fond of telling me that IF frogs had wings, they wouldn’t hop and bump their tushes on the ground <grin. Live and learn… CAT 248/237/135 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sorry guys, but you just won’t have on clue on this one! I’ve been doing the LC WOE since early April, and am happy with my progress, energy level, lack of cravings, etc. BUT, I am painfully aware every month that my PMS’y days are much worse than they used to be.  Mood swings, irritability, the whole nine yards. Today while sitting in my kid’s dentist office, I came across two different articles on natural PMS remedies, and both mentioned _increasing_ carb intake.  Hmmm…i thought, makes sense that would be the one thing I’ve noticed, negatively, in the last few months… Other "remedies" mentioned included St. John’s Wort, Evening Primrose Oil, and other stuff that I hadn’t really heard of… Any of you out there having a similar problem, and found any "solution" other than just dealing with it?  I’m not into experimenting with herbal remedies that may interfere with my weight loss, so figured I’d ask here! audrey 170/143/130?        *  when the going gets weird, -dams at voicenet.com      *    the weird turn pro… (remove ‘nospam’)         *         -raoul duke Maybe I’m different, but I used to take zoloft before low-carbing, now I find I do not need it anymore with the new WOL.   Against the better advice of my doctor, I quit taking this med "cold turkey" and added herbals in replacement.   I have had no problems without the meds!  THANK YOU LOW CARB hahaha. I have spoken to a few people and according to them, St. John’s wort, zoloft or any herbal meds  won’t stall your weight loss, but YMMV.  I take evening primrose oil and (maybe) that’s what I think helps me do without the zoloft. If you can’t deal with the PMS symptoms, maybe you should try zoloft or some other form of relief..I understand how it is to deal with it…i did for several years, but since low-carbing, I’ve never felt better in my life…WITHOUT my zoloft. Wummin~ 201/196/150 Visit my homepage:  http://www.geocities.com/~wummin

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sorry guys, but you just won’t have on clue on this one! I’ve been doing the LC WOE since early April, and am happy with my progress, energy level, lack of cravings, etc. BUT, I am painfully aware every month that my PMS’y days are much worse than they used to be.  Mood swings, irritability, the whole nine yards. Today while sitting in my kid’s dentist office, I came across two different articles on natural PMS remedies, and both mentioned _increasing_ carb intake.  Hmmm…i thought, makes sense that would be the one thing I’ve noticed, negatively, in the last few months… Other "remedies" mentioned included St. John’s Wort, Evening Primrose Oil, and other stuff that I hadn’t really heard of… Any of you out there having a similar problem, and found any "solution" other than just dealing with it?  I’m not into experimenting with herbal remedies that may interfere with my weight loss, so figured I’d ask here! audrey 170/143/130?        *  when the going gets weird, -dams at voicenet.com      *    the weird turn pro… (remove ‘nospam’)         *         -raoul duke

Maybe I’m different, but I used to take zoloft before low-carbing, now I find I do not need it anymore with the new WOL.   Against the better advice of my doctor, I quit taking this med "cold turkey" and added herbals in replacement.   I have had no problems without the meds!  THANK YOU LOW CARB hahaha. I have spoken to a few people and according to them, St. John’s wort, zoloft or any herbal meds  won’t stall your weight loss, but YMMV.  I take evening primrose oil and (maybe) that’s what I think helps me do without the zoloft. If you can’t deal with the PMS symptoms, maybe you should try zoloft or some other form of relief..I understand how it is to deal with it…i did for several years, but since low-carbing, I’ve never felt better in my life…WITHOUT my zoloft. Wummin~ 201/196/150 Visit my homepage:  http://www.geocities.com/~wummin

Response:

Sorry guys, but you just won’t have on clue on this one! I’ve been doing the LC WOE since early April, and am happy with my progress, energy level, lack of cravings, etc. BUT, I am painfully aware every month that my PMS’y days are much worse than they used to be.  Mood swings, irritability, the whole nine yards. Today while sitting in my kid’s dentist office, I came across       two different articles on natural PMS remedies, and both mentioned _increasing_ carb intake.  Hmmm…i thought, makes sense that would be the one thing I’ve noticed, negatively, in the last few months… Other "remedies" mentioned included St. John’s Wort, Evening Primrose Oil, and other stuff that I hadn’t really heard of… Any of you out there having a similar problem, and found any "solution" other than just dealing with it?  I’m not into experimenting with herbal remedies that may interfere with my weight loss, so figured I’d ask here! audrey 170/143/130?        *  when the going gets weird, -dams at voicenet.com      *    the weird turn pro…  (remove ‘nospam’)         *         -raoul duke

Response:

Question:

David responds: You are lucky that you only felt a little wired! Approximately 25% of people who have used Zoloft and Prozac type meds have experienced some of the MANY side effects listed on the rap sheet available at the pharmacy. Of those 25% I experienced a reaction several hours after taking my first pill; nausea and diarrhea. The next day, after taking my second pill, I plunged headlong into every known side effect listed by the pharmaceutical company and then some. I was not predisposed to expect any; in fact my GP made it sound like this was a miracle drug, cure-all and I couldn’t wait to take it in anticipation of relief from PD. After the second pill I experienced the following violent reactions: -Severe nausea without vomitting -Six substantial bowel discharges of pink water only -Vertigo so severe, that I had to crawl to the toilet -Stabbing pinpoint pain in the back of my head, lower left side -Severe chills while sweating profusely alternating with… -Severe hot flashes, while my skin was contracting into goosebumps -Total body weakness -Body spasms -Upon closing my eyes, pictures of brilliantly coloured (dazzling) mundane objects would rotate through my ‘mind’s eye’, akin to what people have described while on a bad LSD trip. -Uncontrollable shaking and trembling -Inability to sleep for two full nights It took three days to recuperate enough to be able to get up and around again. I checked with my doctor and pharmacist and both claimed that none of these symtoms were unusual but said that most people who do experience side effects, only have one or two at most. However, my supervisor at work had taken Zoloft a year prior to me and had never spoken about his experience till I told him mine. He had suffered the same reactions on the day of his second pill. Just recounting my experience brought him to tears, thinking back to how bad his reaction had been. I was switched to Paxil and then to Manerix (sp??) Both of those drugs caused lesser but totally intolerable side effects mostly in the GI tract. One year after my encounter with Zoloft, a young woman at the office was prescribed the same drug and dosage and she only experienced nausea for the first week and then was perfectly fine. However, three years into her therapy and still on Zoloft, she has not conquered one symptom of PD and is now on long term disability insurance, unable to work and suffering severely from agoraphobia.  She considers it a triumph to get out of her flat once a month, with the help of two friends; one on either side of her. Three years of Zoloft and at thirty three she has been reduced to a fearful, agoraphobic, unemployed and suicidal mess. While I agree that different drug therapies and also combinations of therapies are needed based on the individual rather than the disorder, I would tend to agree that benzos are most efficient for PD. My specialist agrees and only uses Paxil or Zoloft if firstly, the patient can tolerate it, and secondly, they have chronic depression as well as PD. He has been treating PD exclusively for 25 years and finds that almost everyone who cannot tolerate Prozac family of drugs for depression, can tolerate Imipramine. Unfortunately one must go through 4-6 weeks of  extremely light sleep before tolerating it. This is the reason that Imipramine was prescribed at one time for children who were bed-wetters. It kept them from achieving deep levels of sleep, given in short, periodic doses. I think you will find great success with the benzo route but do not be discouraged if  Klonopin is not the one which works for you and your body chemistry. I had miraculous freedom from severe PD in a three stage therapy starting with Xanax (extremely fast acting, short lived), euphoric relief with Lectopam (medium lasting) as my doctor brought me down to Rivotril (very long lasting) which keeps the symtoms at bay but not as effectively as the fast acting benzos. My advice would be that if the Klonopin is not working to your satisfction within ten days, it probably is not the drug you need and you should try a new one. Good luck with your new meds.!! David To other readers; I am not knocking Zoloft as a med. I just feel that people should be aware that they MIGHT be unfortunate enough to experience mild to severe side effects. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I guess Zoloft and I were not a match made in heaven.  After just three days I found myself so wired last night, I felt like I had eaten an entire package of No Doz!  This was entirely different than the generalized anxiety I often feel.  I called the p-doc around 10:30 and he told me to stop taking it.  I’m seeing him Friday to talk about what’s next. Probably benzos.  Most likely Klonopin.  So, all of you Klonopin success stories–I’d love to hear them! Iris —

Response:

IMO, we should all become our own doctors as it’s our bodies.  No, I don’t mean not to consult an actual doctor; you know what I mean. Love and hugs to the whooooole board.  Janie. I entirely agree with you, Janie – that we need to educate ourselves to the maximum about our conditions and then work *with* our doctors

Not that you would ever be encouraged by any doctor to actually do so of course…  Job security and all that. Iris —

Response:

I’m becoming more convinced of that everyday.  Based on what I’ve read here and elsewhere, it seems benzos have the better track record by far. That’s not to discount SSRI’s or any AD, but for dealing with the disabling panic quickly, benzos seem to be the way to go.  My thought now is to deal with the panic and anticipatory anxiety which is crippling me right now.  Then, if I find some underlying depression, or things still a

Iris, even when I took SSRI’s for Depression, they made me so agitated that I had to take them with Klonopin. this was way before I had PD. So I have strong opinions about treating PD with SSRIs as the first step. Benzos would seem a much wiser way to go. As Cooper said, there is no proven link between Serotonin and PD as there is with Serotonin and Depression. That’s why my Doc back in Boston was adamant about my going on Parnate, an MAO, and sticking with the Benzos. He does nothing but research in psychopharmacology and really knows this stuff backwards and forwards. And he’s been following me from a distance and hooking me up with good docs wherever I move to,  for 17 years, even though I’ve been gone from Boston all that time. As us Jews say, this is a real "mensch". This means MAN in Yiddish. As in good, responsible, kind, etc.. Listen, this guy is a genius. his name is Dr. Harrison Pope. He’s at McLean Hospital in Belmont. He does 99% research but he does have one patient. I call it his private private private practice. At the very least he could refer you to someone who knows PD inside and out. He knows everyone in and out of Boston who’s in the field. This may not be covered by insurance but it would be worth it to talk to someone who really cares and really knows his stuff. He was in the Esquire "most promising people under 40" section. Has been on 20/20, etc. Sorry to extoll his virtues ad nauseum but I don’t like or trust many people and he’s one of those few. If you want, e-mail me and I will hook you up with him. He’s a doll and he listens and he cares. I’m sorry I didn’t think of this sooner. I only recently figured out that you live in Boston and that you were only on an AD. I really believe that that Benzos will help you, Iris. You deserve to sleep and have some quality of life. If the doc you have doesn’t listen to you or doesn’t seem knowledgeable, then let me know. All of us in here are praying for you, Iris. all our love, Veronica et al WRITER/CATCH MY TRAIN OF THOUGHT "You can’t have everything. Where would you put it?" (Steven Wright)

Response:

David responds: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – (Casamiro) writes: own doctor! Iris IMO, we should all become our own doctors as it’s our bodies.  No, I don’t mean not to consult an actual doctor; you know what I mean.   ME TOO.  In fact, my own doctor believes this as well.  He thinks people need to read up and be informed of what is going on, as not all doctors do.  He also left the option to take xanax as my choice, since he told me it was ‘addictive’ and I would need to be weaned off of it.

My doctor has been treating PD for over twenty-five years and he encourages  his patients to participate in their meds therapy. As a responsible and caring doctor, he encourages all patients who are able, to become their own ’specialist’ by providing as much info as possible about PD and about the meds. In his book on PD he lists several pages of treatment therapies based on how the PD is manifesting, by sypmtoms. He also speaks harshly about people (doctors and researchers included)  who say that certain meds such as Xanax are "addictive". The analogy is; is insulin addictive given that a diabetic needs it every day and suffers seriously if the drug is withdrawn?  The same applies to Xanax, one of the most beneficial drugs in fighting PD. So much bullshit is put on the ‘net about Xanax and people love to recount their horror stories of coming "off" the drug. If someone has an allergic reaction, I can sympathize since I am allergic to many meds including pain killers, but this is a different issue.  The problem with Xanax is that it is clean, efficient, fast acting and not only controls PD but eliminates it for the short duration that it stays active in one’s body. The sad part is that most GPs will only prescribe .5 mg. three times per day, when the American Psychiatric Ass. recommends that up to 6-9 mg. may be required to effectively control PD. One of the reasons that doctors try to get patients off Xanax and on a slow acting benzo is simply to eliminate the need to take pills every two to three hours.  I feel sorry for those who recount all the terrible withdrawal symptoms and the living hell they went through coming off Xanax, when in fact all that really happened was a reoccurrence of PD symptoms. It’s sad that people with PD can’t recognize the symptoms of their own disorder and try to blame them on drug withdrawal. One more reason that we need to be ‘our own doctors’. Not by securing drugs without the consent of a doctor, but by becoming aware of the nature of PD and each of the many symptoms it creates. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Lee

Response:

Hi, Iris. I just tried to send you email but it bounced.  Do you have spam-preventing characters in your address, perchance? Thanks — –Kathleen — "Hope is the thing with feathers" — Emily Dickinson Delete * in address to reply by e-mail

Response:

(Casamiro) writes: own doctor! Iris

IMO, we should all become our own doctors as it’s our bodies.  No, I don’t mean

not to consult an actual doctor; you know what I mean.

  ME TOO.  In fact, my own doctor believes this as well.  He thinks people need to read up and be informed of what is going on, as not all doctors do.  He also left the option to take xanax as my choice, since he told me it was ‘addictive’ and I would need to be weaned off of it. Lee A little snogging goes a long way… <EG

Response:

I guess Zoloft and I were not a match made in heaven.  After just three days I found myself so wired last night, I felt like I had eaten an entire package of No Doz!  This was entirely different than the generalized anxiety I often feel.  I called the p-doc around 10:30 and he told me to

stop taking it.  I’m seeing him Friday to talk about what’s next.

Probably benzos.  Most likely Klonopin.  So, all of you Klonopin success

stories–I’d love to hear them!   Sorry to hear this Iris.  But at least now you know you can take medication. That in itself is something to celebrate.  Good luck with the next one :):) Lee A little snogging goes a long way… <EG

Response:

David responds: You are lucky that you only felt a little wired! Approximately 25% of people who have used Zoloft and Prozac type meds have experienced some of the MANY side effects listed on the rap sheet available at the pharmacy. Of those 25% I experienced a reaction several hours after taking my first pill; nausea and diarrhea. The next day, after taking my second pill, I plunged headlong into every known side effect listed by the pharmaceutical company and then some. I was not predisposed to expect any; in fact my GP made it sound like this was a miracle drug, cure-all and I couldn’t wait to take it in anticipation of relief from PD. After the second pill I experienced the following violent reactions: -Severe nausea without vomitting -Six substantial bowel discharges of pink water only -Vertigo so severe, that I had to crawl to the toilet -Stabbing pinpoint pain in the back of my head, lower left side -Severe chills while sweating profusely alternating with… -Severe hot flashes, while my skin was contracting into goose bumps -Total body weakness -Body spasms -Upon closing my eyes, pictures of brilliantly coloured (dazzling) mundane objects would rotate through my ‘mind’s eye’, akin to what people have described while on a bad LSD trip. -Uncontrollable shaking and trembling -Inability to sleep for two full nights It took three days to recuperate enough to be able to get up and around again. I checked with my doctor and pharmacist and both claimed that none of these symptoms were unusual but said that most people who do experience side effects, only have one or two at most. However, my supervisor at work had taken Zoloft a year prior to me and had never spoken about his experience till I told him mine. He had suffered the same reactions on the day of his second pill. Just recounting my experience brought him to tears, thinking back to how bad his reaction had been. I was switched to Paxil and then to Manerix (sp??) Both of those drugs caused lesser but totally intolerable side effects mostly in the GI tract. One year after my encounter with Zoloft, a young woman at the office was prescribed the same drug and dosage and she only experienced nausea for the first week and then was perfectly fine. However, three years into her therapy and still on Zoloft, she has not conquered one symptom of PD and is now on long term disability insurance, unable to work and suffering severely from agoraphobia.  She considers it a triumph to get out of her flat once a month, with the help of two friends; one on either side of her. Three years of Zoloft and at thirty three she has been reduced to a fearful, agoraphobic, unemployed and suicidal mess. While I agree that different drug therapies and also combinations of therapies are needed based on the individual rather than the disorder, I would tend to agree that benzos are most efficient for PD. My specialist agrees and only uses Paxil or Zoloft if firstly, the patient can tolerate it, and secondly, they have chronic depression as well as PD. He has been treating PD exclusively for 25 years and finds that almost everyone who cannot tolerate Prozac family of drugs for depression, can tolerate Imipramine. Unfortunately one must go through 4-6 weeks of  extremely light sleep before tolerating it. This is the reason that Imipramine was prescribed at one time for children who were bed-wetters. It kept them from achieving deep levels of sleep, given in short, periodic doses. I think you will find great success with the benzo route but do not be discouraged if  Klonopin is not the one which works for you and your body chemistry. I had miraculous freedom from severe PD in a three stage therapy starting with Xanax (extremely fast acting, short lived), euphoric relief with Lectopam (medium lasting) as my doctor brought me down to Rivotril (very long lasting) which keeps the symtoms at bay but not as effectively as the fast acting benzos. My advice would be that if the Klonopin is not working to your satisfaction within ten days, it probably is not the drug you need and you should try a new one. Good luck with your new meds.!! David To other readers; I am not knocking Zoloft as a med. I just feel that people should be aware that they MIGHT be unfortunate enough to experience mild to severe side effects. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I guess Zoloft and I were not a match made in heaven.  After just three days I found myself so wired last night, I felt like I had eaten an entire package of No Doz!  This was entirely different than the generalized anxiety I often feel.  I called the p-doc around 10:30 and he told me to stop taking it.  I’m seeing him Friday to talk about what’s next. Probably benzos.  Most likely Klonopin.  So, all of you Klonopin success stories–I’d love to hear them! Iris —

Response:

The doctor put me on zoloft for depression and panic attacks with agorophobia and the result was like magic, at least with respect to the panic attacks: after 24 hours (1 dose!) NO MORE PANIC ATTACKS and no more AGOROPHOBIA!  The depression remains and I continue to take the Zoloft for it.  The major side effect that I experience is insomnia (can’t get to sleep) but once I get to sleep I sleep better than ever. I just got some Ambien for sleep — I’ll try the first pill tonight.   I just hope that it works for my depression.  I have read that it takes between 7 and 28 days to see the antidepressant effects of Zoloft.  I’m taking only 50 mg a day.

I’m very glad you are able to take the Zoloft with such success.  However, I don’t know if it is that effective after just one dose. When I took Zoloft, the big buzz would set in 10-12 hours after I took it.  I was taking my dose in the morning, but in retrospect, taking it at night would have been better.  If you think about when the drug affects you most and adjust the timing of your dose accordingly, it may help. Sorry I can’t be more optimistic re: Zoloft.  I only took it 4 days but I couldn’t stand the way it made me feel. Iris —

Response:

doctor! Iris

IMO, we should all become our own doctors as it’s our bodies.  No, I don’t mean not to consult an actual doctor; you know what I mean. Love and hugs to the whooooole board.  Janie.

Response:

I’m becoming more convinced of that everyday.  Based on what I’ve read here and elsewhere, it seems benzos have the better track record by far. That’s not to discount SSRI’s or any AD, but for dealing with the disabling panic quickly, benzos seem to be the way to go.  My thought now is to deal with the panic and anticipatory anxiety which is crippling me right now.  Then, if I find some underlying depression, or things still aren’t "right" I’d consider the AD.  In this case, most likely Prozac since I have two family members who have taken it for depression with no side effects (three, if you count our dog!).  Also, Prozac can be taken in liquid form, so I could start with as little as 2-5 mg and work my way up.

Actually, that’s a very good point, Iris. A long while ago, the reminder that Prozac is available in liquid form was commonly given on this NG and we’ve rather let that drop of late. It could be the ideal way for people starting Prozac to begin. Sheesh–I"m becoming my own doctor!

Who else would you trust? — Gary Cooper

Response:

IMO, we should all become our own doctors as it’s our bodies.  No, I don’t mean not to consult an actual doctor; you know what I mean. Love and hugs to the whooooole board.  Janie.

I entirely agree with you, Janie – that we need to educate ourselves to the maximum about our conditions and then work *with* our doctors — Gary Cooper

Response:

The doctor put me on zoloft for depression and panic attacks with agorophobia and the result was like magic, at least with respect to the panic attacks: after 24 hours (1 dose!) NO MORE PANIC ATTACKS and no more AGOROPHOBIA!  The depression remains and I continue to take the Zoloft for it.  The major side effect that I experience is insomnia (can’t get to sleep) but once I get to sleep I sleep better than ever. I just got some Ambien for sleep — I’ll try the first pill tonight.   I just hope that it works for my depression.  I have read that it takes between 7 and 28 days to see the antidepressant effects of Zoloft.  I’m taking only 50 mg a day.

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Boy, I hope Klonopin has fewer side effects!  I’m just now, at 4 pm the next day, starting to feel more "normal" (whatever normal is for a PD sufferer).  I’m just realizing how jittery I felt the last few days

Sorry this didn’t work for you, Iris but at least you tried and I know that was a big step for you. I hope you are giving yourself credit for that. I just got a lecture from a friend of mine who was on Xanax and Zoloft for quite some time.  She’s off the Xanax now, but still on Zoloft.  She told me she thought benzos wouldn’t solve the problem as they don’t affect serotonin levels, etc., etc.  I told her she might not have been able to stand the Zoloft if she hadn’t been on Xanax first.

Good response and sounds like someone you might need to tune out a bit in your quest for what works for you. Sigh.  I don’t know what the right answer is.

If only it was the same for all of us.  I suppose it’s whatever works for me, isn’t it?

Yup, and you will find it.  I think you will find the benzos much more…user friendly.  Good luck! Gwen

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Hi Iris I have a suggestion.  My Dr. has discussed using prozac for me eventually.  Now he knows of my fear of meds and I have not been able to get on an AD so far. The way he told me we would do it is to take a 10 mg prozac and open it into a 4oz baby bottle of apple juice.  That way I can start on a very very low dosage 1/2 oz a day and then 1 oz a day etc…  He said I would feel less side effects that way and the meds would build up slowly plus it gives me some control over the med.  Maybe you could mention this to your dr. and see if it would be an option for you also.  It will take longer to get to a therapeutic dosage but at least it would help with the side effects Blessings, Kelly

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Boy, I hope Klonopin has fewer side effects!  I’m just now, at 4 pm the next day, starting to feel more "normal" (whatever normal is for a PD sufferer).  I’m just realizing how jittery I felt the last few days.  By last night I wasn’t even able to think straight.  My 7 year old beat me in checkers around 3pm.  By 7pm I was climbing the walls.  I didn’t sleep all night.  I woke up wired.  I can’t stand that "buzzed" feeling.  I’m hoping for better results with a benzo.  My p-doc says he might still want to try an AD on me–perhaps Prozac since my sister was on it with no side effects.  Perhaps we’ll see.  If Klonopin can do the trick right now, so be it.

Hi, Iris – I’d have thought there’s every chance that Klonopin will do the trick. To be honest, I grow more sceptical by the day about the current policy of resorting to SSRIs first. The worst Klonopin is likely to do is make you drowsy, IMO. I just got a lecture from a friend of mine who was on Xanax and Zoloft for quite some time.  She’s off the Xanax now, but still on Zoloft.  She told me she thought benzos wouldn’t solve the problem as they don’t affect serotonin levels, etc., etc.  I told her she might not have been able to stand the Zoloft if she hadn’t been on Xanax first.

Your friend’s wrong. There is no certainty that serotonin is the implicated chemical in A/PD – it could be one of several, including GABA, which is what benzos work on. This is a case of YMMV and what worked for her simply may not be right for you. Sigh.  I don’t know what the right answer is.  I suppose it’s whatever works for me, isn’t it?

Cetainly is – good luck! — Gary Cooper

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Hi, Iris – I’d have thought there’s every chance that Klonopin will do the trick. To be honest, I grow more sceptical by the day about the current policy of resorting to SSRIs first. The worst Klonopin is likely to do is make you drowsy, IMO.

I’m becoming more convinced of that everyday.  Based on what I’ve read here and elsewhere, it seems benzos have the better track record by far. That’s not to discount SSRI’s or any AD, but for dealing with the disabling panic quickly, benzos seem to be the way to go.  My thought now is to deal with the panic and anticipatory anxiety which is crippling me right now.  Then, if I find some underlying depression, or things still aren’t "right" I’d consider the AD.  In this case, most likely Prozac since I have two family members who have taken it for depression with no side effects (three, if you count our dog!).  Also, Prozac can be taken in liquid form, so I could start with as little as 2-5 mg and work my way up. Sheesh–I"m becoming my own doctor! Iris I just got a lecture from a friend of mine who was on Xanax and Zoloft for quite some time.  She’s off the Xanax now, but still on Zoloft.  She told me she thought benzos wouldn’t solve the problem as they don’t affect serotonin levels, etc., etc.  I told her she might not have been able to stand the Zoloft if she hadn’t been on Xanax first. Your friend’s wrong. There is no certainty that serotonin is the implicated chemical in A/PD – it could be one of several, including GABA, which is what benzos work on. This is a case of YMMV and what worked for her simply may not be right for you.

She had terrible depression as well, which at this point, I haven’t seen in myself. Iris —

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Iris I have a suggestion.  My Dr. has discussed using prozac for me eventually.  Now he knows of my fear of meds and I have not been able to get on an AD so far. The way he told me we would do it is to take a 10 mg prozac and open it into a 4oz baby bottle of apple juice.  That way I can start on a very very low dosage 1/2 oz a day and then 1 oz a day etc…  He said I would feel less side effects that way and the meds would build up slowly plus it gives me some control over the med.  Maybe you could mention this to your dr. and see if it would be an option for you also.  It will take longer to get to a therapeutic dosage but at least it would help with the side effects Blessings, Kelly

Good suggestion. As I posted earlier in response to Gary’s post, I’m going to get on the benzo first, see how that goes, then review whether or not I need the AD.  If so, Prozac may be a good choice for me. Iris —

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I guess Zoloft and I were not a match made in heaven.  After just three days I found myself so wired last night, I felt like I had eaten an entire package of No Doz!  This was entirely different than the generalized anxiety I often feel.  I called the p-doc around 10:30 and he told me to stop taking it.  I’m seeing him Friday to talk about what’s next. Probably benzos.  Most likely Klonopin.  So, all of you Klonopin success stories–I’d love to hear them! Iris —

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I’ve been maintained on Klonopin for at least 8 years.  I was able to start attending college.  Hey, I was even able to SIT in the class without running for the nearest door…. I can tell you some stories about speech class!  Talk about being shaky, but I made it.  Hopefully, it will work for you, too.

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I couldnt tolerate Zoloft either.  Klonopin has helped anxiety, not a cure by any means, but it helps without any side effects.  Good luck PETER

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I guess Zoloft and I were not a match made in heaven.  After just threedays I

found myself so wired last night, I felt like I had eaten an entirepackage of No Doz!  This was entirely different than the generalizedanxiety I often feel.  I called the p-doc around 10:30 and he told me tostop taking it.  I’m seeing him Friday to talk about what’s next. Probably benzos.  Most likely Klonopin.  So, all of you Klonopin success stories–I’d love to hear them! Iris Been on Klonopin for about 10 yrs – - currently on .5(1/2mg.) 3 x per day (a

low dose IMO) for panic and generalized anxiety.  I’m also on 20 mg Paxil for depression.  Doing well on these dosages except when I have to do something out of the ordinary, like today I’m going to a new gym so I know I will have a huge amount of anxiety.   My vote’s for Klonopin!  Good luck.  Love, Janie. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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I guess Zoloft and I were not a match made in heaven.  After just three days I found myself so wired last night, I felt like I had eaten an entire package of No Doz!  This was entirely different than the generalized anxiety I often feel.  I called the p-doc around 10:30 and he told me to stop taking it.  I’m seeing him Friday to talk about what’s next. Probably benzos.  Most likely Klonopin.  So, all of you Klonopin success stories–I’d love to hear them!

Sorry to hear it didn’t work out, Iris I’m one of those who also had a lot of problems with Zoloft and had to give it up – I’m sure you’ll be lots better with Klonopin, though as it has very few side effects. Good luck! — Gary Cooper

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I guess Zoloft and I were not a match made in heaven.  After just three days I found myself so wired last night, I felt like I had eaten an entire package of No Doz!  This was entirely different than the generalized anxiety I often feel.  I called the p-doc around 10:30 and he told me to stop taking it.  I’m seeing him Friday to talk about what’s next. Probably benzos.  Most likely Klonopin.  So, all of you Klonopin success stories–I’d love to hear them! Sorry to hear it didn’t work out, Iris I’m one of those who also had a lot of problems with Zoloft and had to give it up – I’m sure you’ll be lots better with Klonopin, though as it has very few side effects. Good luck! — Gary Cooper

Boy, I hope Klonopin has fewer side effects!  I’m just now, at 4 pm the next day, starting to feel more "normal" (whatever normal is for a PD sufferer).  I’m just realizing how jittery I felt the last few days.  By last night I wasn’t even able to think straight.  My 7 year old beat me in checkers around 3pm.  By 7pm I was climbing the walls.  I didn’t sleep all night.  I woke up wired.  I can’t stand that "buzzed" feeling.  I’m hoping for better results with a benzo.  My p-doc says he might still want to try an AD on me–perhaps Prozac since my sister was on it with no side effects.  Perhaps we’ll see.  If Klonopin can do the trick right now, so be it. I just got a lecture from a friend of mine who was on Xanax and Zoloft for quite some time.  She’s off the Xanax now, but still on Zoloft.  She told me she thought benzos wouldn’t solve the problem as they don’t affect serotonin levels, etc., etc.  I told her she might not have been able to stand the Zoloft if she hadn’t been on Xanax first. Sigh.  I don’t know what the right answer is.  I suppose it’s whatever works for me, isn’t it? Iris —

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Sorry to hear it didn’t work out, Iris I’m one of those who also had a lot of problems with Zoloft and had to give it up – I’m sure you’ll be lots better with Klonopin, though as it has very few side effects. Good luck! Gary Cooper Boy, I hope Klonopin has fewer side effects!  I’m just now, at 4 pm thenext

day, starting to feel more "normal" (whatever normal is for a PDsufferer). I’m just realizing how jittery I felt the last few days.  Bylast night I wasn’t even able to think straight.  My 7 year old beat me incheckers around 3pm.  By 7pm I was climbing the walls.  I didn’t sleep allnight.  I woke up wired.  I can’t stand that "buzzed" feeling.  I’m hopingfor better results with a benzo.  My p-doc says he might still want to tryan AD on me–perhaps Prozac since my sister was on it with no sideeffects.  Perhaps we’ll see.  If Klonopin can do the trick right now, sobe it. I just got a lecture from a friend of mine who was on Xanax and Zoloft

forquite some time.  She’s off the Xanax now, but still on Zoloft.  She toldme she thought benzos wouldn’t solve the problem as they don’t affectserotonin levels, etc., etc.  I told her she might not have been able tostand the Zoloft if she hadn’t been on Xanax first. Sigh.  I don’t know what the right answer is.  I suppose it’s whateverworks for me, isn’t it? Iris

Iris, I needed the Klonopin to control my GAD and PD.  Janie. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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