Question:

My wife and I moved to Grande Prairie, Alberta, a year ago.  We came here from Prince Edward Island.  She is an American from Illinois. Since we got here, she has had increasing problems with her asthma, to the point that she is now being monitored and on a whole raft of medications, using sidestream, the whole nine yards.  My question is this; Is there any place in Alberta that is safe to live, or does the whole province pose a health risk to asthma sufferers.  If we can find relief further south, then we are willing to look at that option. Mike Nantau

Response:

Moving anywhere can usually be counted on to introduce the asthma sufferer to new triggers.  As usual it takes a while to get accustomed to them.  Hang in there. — Murray Stone phone:  (403) 486-5146  fax:  (403) 483-7791 snailmail:  616-21, 10405 Jasper Avenue Edmonton, AB, T5J 3S2 Canada

Response:

South is not good.  Here in Calgary asthma is pretty common.  Mine has gotten worse since moving here…but it is a beautiful city and I am not leaving.  I never had any problems in Grande Prairie with my asthma. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My wife and I moved to Grande Prairie, Alberta, a year ago.  We came here from Prince Edward Island.  She is an American from Illinois. Since we got here, she has had increasing problems with her asthma, to the point that she is now being monitored and on a whole raft of medications, using sidestream, the whole nine yards.  My question is this; Is there any place in Alberta that is safe to live, or does the whole province pose a health risk to asthma sufferers.  If we can find relief further south, then we are willing to look at that option. Mike Nantau

Response:

South is not good.  Here in Calgary asthma is pretty common.  Mine has gotten worse since moving here…but it is a beautiful city and I am not leaving.  I never had any problems in Grande Prairie with my asthma.

Hi, My asthma also seems to be a lot worse since I moved here to Calgary from Ottawa 10 months ago. However, I also love it and am not planning on leaving. I thought that the dryness (Ottawa is VERY humid) would improve my allergies and asthma, but it seems to have made me more sensitive. I’ve been to emerg 5 times since I’ve been here, but 4 of those times were prolonged exposure to a cat and the last one was the result of what I *think* is bronchitis (I’ve been coughing for 2 weeks!) So, I guess these weren’t speciically due to living in Alberta. I have noticed that the respiratory therapists seem a bit behind here in terms of medication. Each time I have been to emerg (at 3 different hospitals) and they ask me what I’m taking I show them my Maxair which I take along with Beclefort. In each case they had never heard of Maxair before. I thought that was kind of strange because it came out in Ontario about 6 months ago. I find Maxair to be wonderful, literally instant relief. Any suggestions on how to cure this bronchitis? My gp put me on antibiotics 2 days ago but it doesn’t seem to be going away. I’m having trouble sleeping because whenever I lie down I have a huge coughing fit. The Maxair doesn’t stop the cough or the congested feeling. I took an expectorand cough syrup – but stopped when I started on the antibiotics. Should I go back on the cough syrup too? Everyone in my office is buying me halls and bringing me water – very embarassing. Thanks for any advice. Alyssa PS – I tried Flovent and it made me cough even harder.

Response:

Question:

: : I just recieved a nebuliser to help me with this bronchitis I have.  This : is my third case since fall.  It is like I get over one case of it and : then walk right into another one.  This time the flu turned into : bronchitis.  Then my lungs dried out.  I was coughing up hard mucus.  This : hurt real bad. [snip] : : shown.  Also, for the thick mucous, drink plenty of water.  This is your : best friend.  The water keeps the secretions hydrated so you can bring them : up easier and decrease your chances of continuous infections.  Thick : mucous can lead to mucous plugging, leading to worse problems than : bronchitis.  Ask the doctor about an expectorant to help along with the : water.  If you are having continous bouts of infection, chances are it is : being set off from an allergic reaction to something.  Have you come : in contact with something new?  Might want to go see an allergist, or : if you have a HMO dr., insist that he refer you to one.  Find out now to : get a better handle on this. :          Good Luck,   Donna Another potential hint for the thick mucus:  use a humidifier of some sort, particularly at night – that might help keep things moist.  YMMV on this, of course – I found that humid air is harder to breathe, even when I’m sick, though for some reason a hot shower helps without bothering me. And make sure to clean/disinfect the humidifier regularly to prevent growth of mold/bacteria. …Marie and ‘Fang’ (Joey) 8/13/94… …He’s learned to climb – the end of Life As We Know It!  Aiiigggghhhhh!

Response:

I just recieved a nebuliser to help me with this bronchitis I have.  This is my third case since fall.  It is like I get over one case of it and then walk right into another one.  This time the flu turned into bronchitis.  Then my lungs dried out.  I was coughing up hard mucus.  This hurt real bad. I want to ad that I love my neb.  It is a pain in the butt to clean it, but I have been consistent.  I feel much better after using it(much better than the albuterol cannister).  I was on it every 4 hours at first.  Now I am on it just 3 times a day or as needed.  For awhile if felt like I was tied to the nebuliser!  I added up the time spent using and cleaning it (15 minutes every use).  I spent close to 1-2 hours a day getting to know that machine.

First of all.  There is no need to clean the nebulizer chamber after each treatment.  Every two days is sufficient, as studies have shown.  Also, for the thick mucous, drink plenty of water.  This is your best friend.  The water keeps the secretions hydrated so you can bring them up easier and decrease your chances of continuous infections.  Thick mucous can lead to mucous plugging, leading to worse problems than bronchitis.  Ask the doctor about an expectorant to help along with the water.  If you are having continous bouts of infection, chances are it is being set off from an allergic reaction to something.  Have you come in contact with something new?  Might want to go see an allergist, or if you have a HMO dr., insist that he refer you to one.  Find out now to get a better handle on this.          Good Luck,   Donna

Response:

I just recieved a nebuliser to help me with this bronchitis I have.  This is my third case since fall.  It is like I get over one case of it and then walk right into another one.  This time the flu turned into bronchitis.  Then my lungs dried out.  I was coughing up hard mucus.  This hurt real bad. This really stinks(except I lost a pant size on the flu diet).  I am trying to keep a good mental outlook but it is hard as I watch the dollars fly out of my pocket!  Ha. I want to ad that I love my neb.  It is a pain in the butt to clean it, but I have been consistent.  I feel much better after using it(much better than the albuterol cannister).  I was on it every 4 hours at first.  Now I am on it just 3 times a day or as needed.  For awhile if felt like I was tied to the nebuliser!  I added up the time spent using and cleaning it (15 minutes every use).  I spent close to 1-2 hours a day getting to know that machine.   I have been on Biaxin for almost 7 days now and I am still coughing up GAK.  Anyone have any suggestions for me?  Have any of you had bronchitis this bad?  I am just so thankful it wasn’t a Pneumonia diagnosis.  I have heard about that hell. Thanks in advance for any support or input!   Suz in Arizona(gagging and huffing, oh well people leave me alone when I shop at least! Ha.)

Response:

After a bad cold I think I might have bronchitis, which feels different than my usual asthma.  Can anyone tell me what bronchitis feels like? Do you have to have a fever?  Do antibiotics help?  Is there a test or something?  There is this "spot" I feel where I wheeze.  Cough is no longer productive. Any experience out there?  It’s still here 3 wks leter…

Antibiotics help if the bronchitis is caused by bacteria but not for virus. If you are still wheezing or your Peak Flow is below 80% of Personal Best, you may not be taking enough long-acting preventor meds like inhaled steroids. Here’s my links on bronchitis to research: http://www.vh.org/Beyond/PeerReviews/31Bronchitis.html Virtual Hospital,    Bronchitis http://www.familyinternet.com/peds/top/000124.htm  Acute Bronchitis http://www.njc.org/MFhtml/URI_MF.html  URI (Colds) &  Acute Bronchitis http://www.njc.org/PRhtml/!k_bronc.htm  Chronic Bronchitis http://www.charm.net/~epi1/mycoplas.htm  Mycoplasma http://www.sk.sympatico.ca/Contents/Health/REV_HTML/R7738.html Bronchitis    Resources http://www.springnet.com/ce/j701as1.htm Table. Causative Organisms     of Acute Bronchitis http://www.njc.org/MFhtml/RDE_MF.html Resources for COPD  (Chronic Bronchitis, Emphysema)

Question:

                        Stokes                         P.O. Box 548                         Buffalo, NY  14240-0548                         Tel (716) 695-6980

Response:

Sounds good!  Can someone give me a phone or fax number or address so I can request a catalog? I absolutely agree about Stokes.  The catalog is so good it is like a reference book.  The variety is unbeatable, and quality is excellent.  Is their new catalog out yet??

–         http://www.rtis.com/reg/bryan/communit/facility/ @

Question:

Sorry dude, I tend to agree on the side effects of Xanax..I actually was on Xanax for almost 3 yrs, AND (forgive me) was working as a P.medic at the same time…I was a walking zombie and my partners had to cover my azz more than once cuz I was falling asleep everywhere..I couldnt think straight…I couldnt DRIVE at all, and put my car in the ditch at least once…I was trying to attend college but my grades dropped like a bomb..I felt like I was in another world (I was taking this for panic attacks)…then finally, one day, I was getting into the ambulance and fell out the back door while closing it…that was enuff..withdrawal was HEAVENLY..*I love to puke, since IM also bulimic so this was right up my alley…sigghh…the dry heaves was an added bonus since I also like to punish myself..the headaches werent so cool thooo…any other questions about this lovely wonder drug?  Paxil: I just took this one 2 yrs ago for depression..was on it for about 9 mos….It made me nauseous and my stomach hurt all the time..I had headaches and felt like I had a cold all the time (stuffy head feeling)..withdrawal was not as bad as with some others, but there still was the nauseau/vomiting thing etc..so it felt just like I was still taking it till it was out of my system…blah…~Ima – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – People with biplar disorder should not take Paxil or any other anti depressant long term. I am sick and tired about all these posts trying to scare people away from trying xanax.  As someone who has suffered from bipolar disorder(type 2) for 15 years, tried all the antidepressants, now on a cocktail of meds, including xanax and paxil, my experience is that PAXIL has many more adverse effects versus the marginal benefit of some anxiety relief.  I took Paxil for 5 months and was not taking any xanax, and I got some anticapation anxiety relief at the cost of NO LIBIDO, sleeping 12 hours a day, having no motivation, just didn’t give a shit, already gained 10 pounds in 5 months with the carbo craving…..And people want to talk about xanax dependency and problems with withdrawl.  I am not trying to minimize people’s experience or their pain, but with anxiety or other mental health issues, the word is YOUR MILEAGE MAY VARY(YMMY).  I am a college graduate in electrical engineering from a top 5 engineering college, and now have not worked for over two years mostly because of anxiety and some depression yearly.  After working for 11 years struggling with depression and anxiety, I now have a hard time stepping outside my home.  I have considered suicide 1000’s of times over the last 15 years, actually researched and made the plans and was about to end it, and then I started on the Paxil…….Yeah, my suicidal obsessions went away, but now I was content to veg out all day watching TY or on the Net, my desire to GET A JOB disappeared.  Go research web sites and you will see how many people have problems with SSRI’s, yeah they are alive and taking that $3 pill two times a day or many $3 pills for me, but now I am NUMB and just there.  Prior to Paxil I use to be a emotional person, felt the pain of others and would cry when touched by something, but now I am a Paxil-zombie, yeah some anxiety relief but a LOT OF ME is also gone.  So all those xanax phobics, please allow people to fail with their options without scaring them.  What are people’s choices when it comes to anxiety or panic, yes paxil, yes benzo’s, yes MAIO’s, yes CBT(Cognitive Behavior Therapy).  My experience is PAXIL SUCKS and THE WITHDRAWAL IS HORRIBLE BASED ON MUCH FEEDBACK I HAVE READ ON THE NET, MAIO’S like parnate have some studies that back them up but the food restrictions are VERY DIFFICULT(no cheese, wine, beer, chocolate, many OTC meds, etc.), CBT might work for some but the feedback I have heard is that CBT plus meds work the best and I HAVE DONE THE THERAPY ROUTE and it was a waste of money. As one doctor told me, people who suffer from PANIC and think they are dieing have never been told that "your not going to die, it is all in your head"…Well that was my last session with him.  Just to repeat, this is MY EXPERIENCE and YOUR MILEAGE MAY VARY.  Now I could continue to HIBERNATE IN MY HOUSE, NOT WORK, RUN OUT OF MONEY AND THEN BE HOMELESS…..Or I can be proactive and continue to experiment and try to find some solution that will allow me to work and have a life.  I have taken xanax in the past, just started it one month ago, still taking a low dose of paxil, and I am MUCH MUCH BETTER at dealing with day to day life, interacting with people, giving my shit done, etc. Yeah, maybe I will be taking xanax for the rest of my life but the only side effect I have had is some sleepiness.  And to those who talk about TOLERANCE BUILDUP, that is a CROCK, yes you might have to increase your xanax from .25mg 3 times a day to .50mg 3 times a day, there are people who have taken xanax for 5 to 15 years and most leveled out after 1 year at a dose and have no desire to increase. People need to do some research and FIND OUT THE REAL TRUTH, not what BIG PHARMA and BIG BUSINESS OWNED MEDIA OUTLETS want us to believe. Not to be cynical, but $3 no generic available paxil is much better for DRUG COMPANIES, then CHEAP GENERIC XANAX which might be more effective with less side-effects.  Why are benzo’s so hard to get, cause drug lobbiest have access to CONGRESS and made sure that THE NO-PROFIT SOLUTIONS(IE LIKE BENZO’S) are not readily available. Linda Channell, (740) 548-6874, 88 Ravine Rd, Powell, OH 43065 Let me make THE NEWCOMERS TO MENTAL ILLNESS aware that HYPE ABOUT THE LATEST ANTIDEPRESSANT HAS EVERYTHING TO DO WITH THE BILLIONS OF DOLLARS THAT WILL BE MADE ON THE DRUG, and the only time you will hear about THE NEGATIVES about that drug will be when it comes off-patent. Now that we have generic prozac, we will hear more about side effects like NO LIBIDO, WEIGHT GAIN, SUICIDE, AND OTHER  EFEECTS.  Of course, as long as Paxil and Zoloft have no generics, MEDIA HYPE will be still muted, but give it time.  Just as all the SSRI’s go generic, we will hear about ALL THE NEGATIVES and out will come the new batch of 8 TO 12 WEEK STUDIED ANTIDEPRESSANTS to start the new profit cycle.  People with mental illness are just pawns, half ass useless meds are approved based on 8 week studies, NO REASON FOR A LONG TERM STUDY, we really don’t want to KNOW THE TRUTH, and as soon as the generics start rolling out, OUT COMES THE DIRTY LAUNDRY, not to HELP US, NO, ONLY SO THAT WE GO ON THE LATEST $5 PILL THAT HAS A 80% SUCCESS RATE AND EVEN LESS SIDE EFFECTS.  Hell as long as everyone is making money, who cares about THE CRAZIES that take the product, we just need them alive and taking their meds.  Now I forget, was I taking about the cigarette industry or drug companies, HELL WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE.  This of course is just the opinion of a mentally ill patient with 15 years of experience popping pills, all of which have a 70% effective rate, but I guess I am the exception, "ALIVE" AND NOT SUICIDAL, AND NOT HAPPY ABOUT IT. White Knight

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sorry dude, I tend to agree on the side effects of Xanax..I actually was on Xanax for almost 3 yrs, AND (forgive me) was working as a P.medic at the same time…I was a walking zombie and my partners had to cover my azz more than once cuz I was falling asleep everywhere..I couldnt think straight…I couldnt DRIVE at all, and put my car in the ditch at least once…I was trying to attend college but my grades dropped like a bomb..I felt like I was in another world (I was taking this for panic attacks)…then finally, one day, I was getting into the ambulance and fell out the back door while closing it…that was enuff..withdrawal was HEAVENLY..*I love to puke, since IM also bulimic so this was right up my alley…sigghh…the dry heaves was an added bonus since I also like to punish myself..the headaches werent so cool thooo…any other questions about this lovely wonder drug?  Paxil: I just took this one 2 yrs ago for depression..was on it for about 9 mos….It made me nauseous and my stomach hurt all the time..I had headaches and felt like I had a cold all the time (stuffy head feeling)..withdrawal was not as bad as with some others, but there still was the nauseau/vomiting thing etc..so it felt just like I was still taking it till it was out of my system…blah…~Ima

The worst thing about it, in my experience is the panic attacks that arose from reaching tolerance level.  After many years, maybe 7 or 10, I started getting severe panic attacks every day; it was a nightmare.  I got out of it myself by searching the net and suspecting that indeed this was addiction.  But my doctor did not know this I don’t think — I was helped and contratulated to get off altogether.  I believe that the longer term benzos are different in this respect – perhaps requiring much longer time to reach tolerance or habituation of the nervous system. I no longer have panic attacks – they destroyed my life and my career during my 30s and 40s – I’m wondering what’s next with the rest of my meds. Squiggles

Response:

the only thing that helped me was the book traveling light.I recommend it to anyone.its by Max Lucado.

Response:

the only thing that helped me was the book traveling light.I recommend it to anyone.its by Max Lucado.

Dawn, No offense but just because the medical establishment hasn’t got it right on psychopharmacology, doesn’t mean that Christianity does.  If it helped you that’s good, but spirituality is one thing and medicine another. Squiggles

Response:

Squiggles, I was not telling anyone that they had to go off their medication,I was just letting everyone know that I like that book and I want everyone to know that it was good.it had nothing to do with medication,because no matter how much I believe in god as my savior,I will always be mentally ill.I am sorry if you thought I was attacking you in anyway.

Response:

I want to know how to make or create a message so it doesn’t appear under someone else’s topic?that’s why squiggles got angry.

Response:

I want to know how to make or create a message so it doesn’t appear under someone else’s topic?that’s why squiggles got angry.

You should have a "post new message" or "new message" command around somewhere, use that instead of replying to someone else’s post. If you reply it will appear linked to the post to which you replied, even if you change the subject line. Can’t be more specific without knowing what program you’re using. Fiona — If we had no winter, the spring would not be so pleasant: if we did not sometimes taste the adversity, prosperity would not be so welcome.      – Anne Bradstreet, Meditations Divine and Moral, 1664

Response:

"Dawn" wrote I want to know how to make or create a message so it doesn’t appear under someone else’s topic?that’s why squiggles got angry.

Do you have a "New Post" button? Oh, I see Fiona has already enswered this. Well, good luck, Dawn. Hugs, TK

Response:

Squiggles, I was not telling anyone that they had to go off their medication,I was just letting everyone know that I like that book and I want everyone to know that it was good.it had nothing to do with medication,because no matter how much I believe in god as my savior,I will always be mentally ill.I am sorry if you thought I was attacking you in anyway.

OK – sorry, I suppose I have become hypervigilant to propaganda on the net.  I apologize. Squiggles

Response:

Benzodiazepines cause cognitive decline and depression.

All of them?  Gasp — I have to take clonazepam for bipolar disorder, and some kids have to take 10 times my dose for epilepsy.  Are you sure? Squiggles

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You have done it! Victoria – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Organization: Road Runner Newsgroups: alt.support.depression.manic,alt.support.personality,alt.support.depression .me dication I want to know how to make or create a message so it doesn’t appear under someone else’s topic?that’s why squiggles got angry.

Response:

    I have the impression that convulsions cause brain damage too. Goblin

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Benzodiazepines cause cognitive decline and depression. All of them?  Gasp — I have to take clonazepam for bipolar disorder, and some kids have to take 10 times my dose for epilepsy.  Are you sure? Squiggles Cognitive Impairment and Long-Term Damage The many papers published in the 1960s and early to mid 1970s on this subject were largely single dose therapeutic dose studies or low-dose studies for periods of a few weeks. They showed a range of deficits in cognitive function, psychomotor performance and short-term memory problems with no development of tolerance. It was not until the late 1970s and early 1980s (when therapeutic dose dependency was belatedly accepted), that cognitive function and other tests on long-term benzodiazepine users (up to 10 years) were studied both during use and in acute withdrawals. From the mid 1980s to mid 1990s there was an increasing number of studies looking at damage after long-term use and at follow-up periods after discontinuation of up to six years. Several of these studies involve CT scans of the brain looking for structural changes. Summary Benzodiazepines produce impairment of cognitive functioning and psychomotor performance e.g. reaction time, vigilance, arousal, judgement, reasoning, speed and accuracy of information processing, visual spatial ability, co-ordination, short-term and post drug long-term memory, ‘blackouts’ and learned tasks. These effects are independent of abuse, dependency, non-dependency, normal, healthy, young or old subjects. Impairment increases with chronic use. Development of tolerance to these effects is very slow. CT brain scans show a difference in ventricular cerebral spinal fluid space dimensions between benzodiazepine users and non-users, and also between high and low benzodiazepine users. The functional brain damage causes increased morbidity, increased mortality and social deterioration. Subjects are generally not aware of their reduced capacity or the fact that they are not functioning well in every day life. In general much of the impairment is slowly reversible. Some aspects show improvement after six years, some are semi-permanent or permanent. http://www.benzo.org.uk/vot4.htm

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Benzodiazepines cause cognitive decline and depression. All of them?  Gasp — I have to take clonazepam for bipolar disorder, and some kids have to take 10 times my dose for epilepsy.  Are you sure? Squiggles Cognitive Impairment and Long-Term Damage The many papers published in the 1960s and early to mid 1970s on this subject were largely single dose therapeutic dose studies or low-dose studies for periods of a few weeks. They showed a range of deficits in cognitive function, psychomotor performance and short-term memory problems with no development of tolerance. It was not until the late 1970s and early 1980s (when therapeutic dose dependency was belatedly accepted), that cognitive function and other tests on long-term benzodiazepine users (up to 10 years) were studied both during use and in acute withdrawals. From the mid 1980s to mid 1990s there was an increasing number of studies looking at damage after long-term use and at follow-up periods after discontinuation of up to six years. Several of these studies involve CT scans of the brain looking for structural changes. Summary Benzodiazepines produce impairment of cognitive functioning and psychomotor performance e.g. reaction time, vigilance, arousal, judgement, reasoning, speed and accuracy of information processing, visual spatial ability, co-ordination, short-term and post drug long-term memory, ‘blackouts’ and learned tasks. These effects are independent of abuse, dependency, non-dependency, normal, healthy, young or old subjects. Impairment increases with chronic use. Development of tolerance to these effects is very slow. CT brain scans show a difference in ventricular cerebral spinal fluid space dimensions between benzodiazepine users and non-users, and also between high and low benzodiazepine users. The functional brain damage causes increased morbidity, increased mortality and social deterioration. Subjects are generally not aware of their reduced capacity or the fact that they are not functioning well in every day life. In general much of the impairment is slowly reversible. Some aspects show improvement after six years, some are semi-permanent or permanent. http://www.benzo.org.uk/vot4.htm

Right, Am I speaking with Ray or Rand or possible David Woolfe’s ghost? Squiggles

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You have done it!

Depends on how the newsreader threads it. In Netscape this shows up with the new subject line but still under the old thread, so I don’t see the new subject line unless I open the old thread for it. Fiona — If we had no winter, the spring would not be so pleasant: if we did not sometimes taste the adversity, prosperity would not be so welcome.      – Anne Bradstreet, Meditations Divine and Moral, 1664

Response:

I want to know how to make or create a message so it doesn’t appear under someone else’s topic?that’s why squiggles got angry.

You just title it and post it usnig new message.I have a AC and have the option of posting to the ngs. — LyndaNP Reality isn’t the way you wish things to be, nor the way they appear to be, but the way they actually are. – Robert J. Ringer

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Dawn I was wondering exactly who you are posting to. Cause right now you are posting to 5 different groups. ~Michele

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I want to know how to make or create a message so it doesn’t appear under someone else’s topic?that’s why squiggles got angry.

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thanks Michelle I was a little confused.I am new to this.I just started.thanks

Response:

    I have the impression that convulsions cause brain damage too. Goblin

correct. very seriously, if left untreated and they are severe convulsions… — ~~~~~<:~~~~~ iriXx "sometimes i get overcharged…   that’s when you see sparks   you ask me where the hell i’m going   at a thousand feet per second…" radiohead: the tourist

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Now I’m confused.  (?) ~Michele

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – thanks Michelle I was a little confused.I am new to this.I just started.thanks

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Dawn I was wondering exactly who you are posting to. Cause right now you are posting to 5 different groups. ~Michele

thats probably cos she hit reply to one of those messages that was crossposted to all and sundry… its not her fault. m — ~~~~~<:~~~~~ iriXx "sometimes i get overcharged…   that’s when you see sparks   you ask me where the hell i’m going   at a thousand feet per second…" radiohead: the tourist

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I didn’t mean for it to sound mean. I really wanted to know who she was posting to. I’m confused.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dawn I was wondering exactly who you are posting to. Cause right now you are posting to 5 different groups. ~Michele thats probably cos she hit reply to one of those messages that was crossposted to all and sundry… its not her fault. m — ~~~~~<:~~~~~ iriXx "sometimes i get overcharged…   that’s when you see sparks   you ask me where the hell i’m going   at a thousand feet per second…" radiohead: the tourist

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I didn’t mean for it to sound mean. I really wanted to know who she was posting to. I’m confused.

its okay. which group are you on? i think this was intended for alt.support.depression.manic m — ~~~~~<:~~~~~ iriXx "sometimes i get overcharged…   that’s when you see sparks   you ask me where the hell i’m going   at a thousand feet per second…" radiohead: the tourist

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Good author—-writes good books!! cal

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Gee, I have been using Klonopin off and on now for around..oh..10 yrs now..in doses from .5 mg to 5mgs daily…..and my brain isnt fried….(half-baked but not fried)…in fact, I had to have an IQ test for the state to see if I was qualified for rehab (and not retarded) last year and had a very hefty score above 140…*but I didnt get to join rehab cuz they tells me I aint KURED enuff to join the work force in doing the menial minimum wage training of cleaning dirty lunch trays-which is what they wanted to ‘train’ me to do-so I could RE-enter society…(I was a paramedic for 16 yrs prior, so cleaning lunch trays was considered something I would be qualified to do thru rehab).. Good thing Ive been taking them tranks tho..keeps my mind clean and ..um, um..what was I saying? Was I saying something?  What the hell am I doing here anyway? Just forget it..I dont even know who you are..stop stealing my jacks or IM gonna tell.. ~Ima – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –     I have the impression that convulsions cause brain damage too. Goblin correct. very seriously, if left untreated and they are severe convulsions… — ~~~~~<:~~~~~ iriXx "sometimes i get overcharged…   that’s when you see sparks   you ask me where the hell i’m going   at a thousand feet per second…" radiohead: the tourist

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     i haven’t read this book yet—-what is the "theme"?      i have read some of his other books—he is great.      If this helped you, don’t let ANYONE discourage you!! cal

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EXACTELY. What about the damage these other meds cause like Li and anti psychotics? We could go on and on. Or even the progressive nature of BP/ and connvulsions. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have the impression that convulsions cause brain damage too. Goblin

Response:

I didn’t mean for it to sound mean. I really wanted to know who she was posting to. I’m confused.

its okay. which group are you on? i think this was intended for alt.support.depression.manic m — ~~~~~<:~~~~~ iriXx "sometimes i get overcharged…   that’s when you see sparks   you ask me where the hell i’m going   at a thousand feet per second…" radiohead: the tourist

Response:

Gee, I have been using Klonopin off and on now for around..oh..10 yrs now..in doses from .5 mg to 5mgs daily…..and my brain isnt fried….(half-baked but not fried)…in fact, I had to have an IQ test for the state to see if I was qualified for rehab (and not retarded) last year and had a very hefty score above 140…*but I didnt get to join rehab cuz they tells me I aint KURED enuff to join the work force in doing the menial minimum wage training of cleaning dirty lunch trays-which is what they wanted to ‘train’ me to do-so I could RE-enter society…(I was a paramedic for 16 yrs prior, so cleaning lunch trays was considered something I would be qualified to do thru rehab).. Good thing Ive been taking them tranks tho..keeps my mind clean and ..um, um..what was I saying? Was I saying something?  What the hell am I doing here anyway? Just forget it..I dont even know who you are..stop stealing my jacks or IM gonna tell.. ~Ima – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –     I have the impression that convulsions cause brain damage too. Goblin correct. very seriously, if left untreated and they are severe convulsions… — ~~~~~<:~~~~~ iriXx "sometimes i get overcharged…   that’s when you see sparks   you ask me where the hell i’m going   at a thousand feet per second…" radiohead: the tourist

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thanks Michelle I was a little confused.I am new to this.I just started.thanks

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    I have the impression that convulsions cause brain damage too. Goblin

correct. very seriously, if left untreated and they are severe convulsions… — ~~~~~<:~~~~~ iriXx "sometimes i get overcharged…   that’s when you see sparks   you ask me where the hell i’m going   at a thousand feet per second…" radiohead: the tourist

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Now I’m confused.  (?) ~Michele

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – thanks Michelle I was a little confused.I am new to this.I just started.thanks

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Dawn I was wondering exactly who you are posting to. Cause right now you are posting to 5 different groups. ~Michele

thats probably cos she hit reply to one of those messages that was crossposted to all and sundry… its not her fault. m — ~~~~~<:~~~~~ iriXx "sometimes i get overcharged…   that’s when you see sparks   you ask me where the hell i’m going   at a thousand feet per second…" radiohead: the tourist

Response:

I didn’t mean for it to sound mean. I really wanted to know who she was posting to. I’m confused.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dawn I was wondering exactly who you are posting to. Cause right now you are posting to 5 different groups. ~Michele thats probably cos she hit reply to one of those messages that was crossposted to all and sundry… its not her fault. m — ~~~~~<:~~~~~ iriXx "sometimes i get overcharged…   that’s when you see sparks   you ask me where the hell i’m going   at a thousand feet per second…" radiohead: the tourist

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Benzodiazepines cause cognitive decline and depression. All of them?  Gasp — I have to take clonazepam for bipolar disorder, and some kids have to take 10 times my dose for epilepsy.  Are you sure? Squiggles Cognitive Impairment and Long-Term Damage The many papers published in the 1960s and early to mid 1970s on this subject were largely single dose therapeutic dose studies or low-dose studies for periods of a few weeks. They showed a range of deficits in cognitive function, psychomotor performance and short-term memory problems with no development of tolerance. It was not until the late 1970s and early 1980s (when therapeutic dose dependency was belatedly accepted), that cognitive function and other tests on long-term benzodiazepine users (up to 10 years) were studied both during use and in acute withdrawals. From the mid 1980s to mid 1990s there was an increasing number of studies looking at damage after long-term use and at follow-up periods after discontinuation of up to six years. Several of these studies involve CT scans of the brain looking for structural changes. Summary Benzodiazepines produce impairment of cognitive functioning and psychomotor performance e.g. reaction time, vigilance, arousal, judgement, reasoning, speed and accuracy of information processing, visual spatial ability, co-ordination, short-term and post drug long-term memory, ‘blackouts’ and learned tasks. These effects are independent of abuse, dependency, non-dependency, normal, healthy, young or old subjects. Impairment increases with chronic use. Development of tolerance to these effects is very slow. CT brain scans show a difference in ventricular cerebral spinal fluid space dimensions between benzodiazepine users and non-users, and also between high and low benzodiazepine users. The functional brain damage causes increased morbidity, increased mortality and social deterioration. Subjects are generally not aware of their reduced capacity or the fact that they are not functioning well in every day life. In general much of the impairment is slowly reversible. Some aspects show improvement after six years, some are semi-permanent or permanent. http://www.benzo.org.uk/vot4.htm

Right, Am I speaking with Ray or Rand or possible David Woolfe’s ghost? Squiggles

Response:

I want to know how to make or create a message so it doesn’t appear under someone else’s topic?that’s why squiggles got angry.

hey, dont worry…. what system are you using? if you’re on Outlook or Outlook Express, you should have a button at the top marked New Message… hit that instead of hitting reply…. its the same in netscape (which is what im using )…. m — ~~~~~<:~~~~~ iriXx "sometimes i get overcharged…   that’s when you see sparks   you ask me where the hell i’m going   at a thousand feet per second…" radiohead: the tourist

Response:

I want to know how to make or create a message so it doesn’t appear under someone else’s topic?that’s why squiggles got angry.

You just title it and post it usnig new message.I have a AC and have the option of posting to the ngs. — LyndaNP Reality isn’t the way you wish things to be, nor the way they appear to be, but the way they actually are. – Robert J. Ringer

Response:

Dawn I was wondering exactly who you are posting to. Cause right now you are posting to 5 different groups. ~Michele

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I want to know how to make or create a message so it doesn’t appear under someone else’s topic?that’s why squiggles got angry.

Response:

You have done it!

Depends on how the newsreader threads it. In Netscape this shows up with the new subject line but still under the old thread, so I don’t see the new subject line unless I open the old thread for it. Fiona — If we had no winter, the spring would not be so pleasant: if we did not sometimes taste the adversity, prosperity would not be so welcome.      – Anne Bradstreet, Meditations Divine and Moral, 1664

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sorry dude, I tend to agree on the side effects of Xanax..I actually was on Xanax for almost 3 yrs, AND (forgive me) was working as a P.medic at the same time…I was a walking zombie and my partners had to cover my azz more than once cuz I was falling asleep everywhere..I couldnt think straight…I couldnt DRIVE at all, and put my car in the ditch at least once…I was trying to attend college but my grades dropped like a bomb..I felt like I was in another world (I was taking this for panic attacks)…then finally, one day, I was getting into the ambulance and fell out the back door while closing it…that was enuff..withdrawal was HEAVENLY..*I love to puke, since IM also bulimic so this was right up my alley…sigghh…the dry heaves was an added bonus since I also like to punish myself..the headaches werent so cool thooo…any other questions about this lovely wonder drug?  Paxil: I just took this one 2 yrs ago for depression..was on it for about 9 mos….It made me nauseous and my stomach hurt all the time..I had headaches and felt like I had a cold all the time (stuffy head feeling)..withdrawal was not as bad as with some others, but there still was the nauseau/vomiting thing etc..so it felt just like I was still taking it till it was out of my system…blah…~Ima

The worst thing about it, in my experience is the panic attacks that arose from reaching tolerance level.  After many years, maybe 7 or 10, I started getting severe panic attacks every day; it was a nightmare.  I got out of it myself by searching the net and suspecting that indeed this was addiction.  But my doctor did not know this I don’t think — I was helped and contratulated to get off altogether.  I believe that the longer term benzos are different in this respect – perhaps requiring much longer time to reach tolerance or habituation of the nervous system. I no longer have panic attacks – they destroyed my life and my career during my 30s and 40s – I’m wondering what’s next with the rest of my meds. Squiggles

Response:

the only thing that helped me was the book traveling light.I recommend it to anyone.its by Max Lucado.

Response:

the only thing that helped me was the book traveling light.I recommend it to anyone.its by Max Lucado.

Dawn, No offense but just because the medical establishment hasn’t got it right on psychopharmacology, doesn’t mean that Christianity does.  If it helped you that’s good, but spirituality is one thing and medicine another. Squiggles

Response:

Squiggles, I was not telling anyone that they had to go off their medication,I was just letting everyone know that I like that book and I want everyone to know that it was good.it had nothing to do with medication,because no matter how much I believe in god as my savior,I will always be mentally ill.I am sorry if you thought I was attacking you in anyway.

Response:

I want to know how to make or create a message so it doesn’t appear under someone else’s topic?that’s why squiggles got angry.

Response:

I want to know how to make or create a message so it doesn’t appear under someone else’s topic?that’s why squiggles got angry.

You should have a "post new message" or "new message" command around somewhere, use that instead of replying to someone else’s post. If you reply it will appear linked to the post to which you replied, even if you change the subject line. Can’t be more specific without knowing what program you’re using. Fiona — If we had no winter, the spring would not be so pleasant: if we did not sometimes taste the adversity, prosperity would not be so welcome.      – Anne Bradstreet, Meditations Divine and Moral, 1664

Response:

"Dawn" wrote I want to know how to make or create a message so it doesn’t appear under someone else’s topic?that’s why squiggles got angry.

Do you have a "New Post" button? Oh, I see Fiona has already enswered this. Well, good luck, Dawn. Hugs, TK

Response:

Squiggles, I was not telling anyone that they had to go off their medication,I was just letting everyone know that I like that book and I want everyone to know that it was good.it had nothing to do with medication,because no matter how much I believe in god as my savior,I will always be mentally ill.I am sorry if you thought I was attacking you in anyway.

OK – sorry, I suppose I have become hypervigilant to propaganda on the net.  I apologize. Squiggles

Response:

Benzodiazepines cause cognitive decline and depression.

All of them?  Gasp — I have to take clonazepam for bipolar disorder, and some kids have to take 10 times my dose for epilepsy.  Are you sure? Squiggles

Response:

You have done it! Victoria – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Organization: Road Runner Newsgroups: alt.support.depression.manic,alt.support.personality,alt.support.depression .me dication I want to know how to make or create a message so it doesn’t appear under someone else’s topic?that’s why squiggles got angry.

Response:

    I have the impression that convulsions cause brain damage too. Goblin

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Benzodiazepines cause cognitive decline and depression. All of them?  Gasp — I have to take clonazepam for bipolar disorder, and some kids have to take 10 times my dose for epilepsy.  Are you sure? Squiggles Cognitive Impairment and Long-Term Damage The many papers published in the 1960s and early to mid 1970s on this subject were largely single dose therapeutic dose studies or low-dose studies for periods of a few weeks. They showed a range of deficits in cognitive function, psychomotor performance and short-term memory problems with no development of tolerance. It was not until the late 1970s and early 1980s (when therapeutic dose dependency was belatedly accepted), that cognitive function and other tests on long-term benzodiazepine users (up to 10 years) were studied both during use and in acute withdrawals. From the mid 1980s to mid 1990s there was an increasing number of studies looking at damage after long-term use and at follow-up periods after discontinuation of up to six years. Several of these studies involve CT scans of the brain looking for structural changes. Summary Benzodiazepines produce impairment of cognitive functioning and psychomotor performance e.g. reaction time, vigilance, arousal, judgement, reasoning, speed and accuracy of information processing, visual spatial ability, co-ordination, short-term and post drug long-term memory, ‘blackouts’ and learned tasks. These effects are independent of abuse, dependency, non-dependency, normal, healthy, young or old subjects. Impairment increases with chronic use. Development of tolerance to these effects is very slow. CT brain scans show a difference in ventricular cerebral spinal fluid space dimensions between benzodiazepine users and non-users, and also between high and low benzodiazepine users. The functional brain damage causes increased morbidity, increased mortality and social deterioration. Subjects are generally not aware of their reduced capacity or the fact that they are not functioning well in every day life. In general much of the impairment is slowly reversible. Some aspects show improvement after six years, some are semi-permanent or permanent. http://www.benzo.org.uk/vot4.htm

Response:

Sorry dude, I tend to agree on the side effects of Xanax..I actually was on Xanax for almost 3 yrs, AND (forgive me) was working as a P.medic at the same time…I was a walking zombie and my partners had to cover my azz more than once cuz I was falling asleep everywhere..I couldnt think straight…I couldnt DRIVE at all, and put my car in the ditch at least once…I was trying to attend college but my grades dropped like a bomb..I felt like I was in another world (I was taking this for panic attacks)…then finally, one day, I was getting into the ambulance and fell out the back door while closing it…that was enuff..withdrawal was HEAVENLY..*I love to puke, since IM also bulimic so this was right up my alley…sigghh…the dry heaves was an added bonus since I also like to punish myself..the headaches werent so cool thooo…any other questions about this lovely wonder drug?  Paxil: I just took this one 2 yrs ago for depression..was on it for about 9 mos….It made me nauseous and my stomach hurt all the time..I had headaches and felt like I had a cold all the time (stuffy head feeling)..withdrawal was not as bad as with some others, but there still was the nauseau/vomiting thing etc..so it felt just like I was still taking it till it was out of my system…blah…~Ima – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – People with biplar disorder should not take Paxil or any other anti depressant long term. I am sick and tired about all these posts trying to scare people away from trying xanax.  As someone who has suffered from bipolar disorder(type 2) for 15 years, tried all the antidepressants, now on a cocktail of meds, including xanax and paxil, my experience is that PAXIL has many more adverse effects versus the marginal benefit of some anxiety relief.  I took Paxil for 5 months and was not taking any xanax, and I got some anticapation anxiety relief at the cost of NO LIBIDO, sleeping 12 hours a day, having no motivation, just didn’t give a shit, already gained 10 pounds in 5 months with the carbo craving…..And people want to talk about xanax dependency and problems with withdrawl.  I am not trying to minimize people’s experience or their pain, but with anxiety or other mental health issues, the word is YOUR MILEAGE MAY VARY(YMMY).  I am a college graduate in electrical engineering from a top 5 engineering college, and now have not worked for over two years mostly because of anxiety and some depression yearly.  After working for 11 years struggling with depression and anxiety, I now have a hard time stepping outside my home.  I have considered suicide 1000’s of times over the last 15 years, actually researched and made the plans and was about to end it, and then I started on the Paxil…….Yeah, my suicidal obsessions went away, but now I was content to veg out all day watching TY or on the Net, my desire to GET A JOB disappeared.  Go research web sites and you will see how many people have problems with SSRI’s, yeah they are alive and taking that $3 pill two times a day or many $3 pills for me, but now I am NUMB and just there.  Prior to Paxil I use to be a emotional person, felt the pain of others and would cry when touched by something, but now I am a Paxil-zombie, yeah some anxiety relief but a LOT OF ME is also gone.  So all those xanax phobics, please allow people to fail with their options without scaring them.  What are people’s choices when it comes to anxiety or panic, yes paxil, yes benzo’s, yes MAIO’s, yes CBT(Cognitive Behavior Therapy).  My experience is PAXIL SUCKS and THE WITHDRAWAL IS HORRIBLE BASED ON MUCH FEEDBACK I HAVE READ ON THE NET, MAIO’S like parnate have some studies that back them up but the food restrictions are VERY DIFFICULT(no cheese, wine, beer, chocolate, many OTC meds, etc.), CBT might work for some but the feedback I have heard is that CBT plus meds work the best and I HAVE DONE THE THERAPY ROUTE and it was a waste of money. As one doctor told me, people who suffer from PANIC and think they are dieing have never been told that "your not going to die, it is all in your head"…Well that was my last session with him.  Just to repeat, this is MY EXPERIENCE and YOUR MILEAGE MAY VARY.  Now I could continue to HIBERNATE IN MY HOUSE, NOT WORK, RUN OUT OF MONEY AND THEN BE HOMELESS…..Or I can be proactive and continue to experiment and try to find some solution that will allow me to work and have a life.  I have taken xanax in the past, just started it one month ago, still taking a low dose of paxil, and I am MUCH MUCH BETTER at dealing with day to day life, interacting with people, giving my shit done, etc. Yeah, maybe I will be taking xanax for the rest of my life but the only side effect I have had is some sleepiness.  And to those who talk about TOLERANCE BUILDUP, that is a CROCK, yes you might have to increase your xanax from .25mg 3 times a day to .50mg 3 times a day, there are people who have taken xanax for 5 to 15 years and most leveled out after 1 year at a dose and have no desire to increase. People need to do some research and FIND OUT THE REAL TRUTH, not what BIG PHARMA and BIG BUSINESS OWNED MEDIA OUTLETS want us to believe. Not to be cynical, but $3 no generic available paxil is much better for DRUG COMPANIES, then CHEAP GENERIC XANAX which might be more effective with less side-effects.  Why are benzo’s so hard to get, cause drug lobbiest have access to CONGRESS and made sure that THE NO-PROFIT SOLUTIONS(IE LIKE BENZO’S) are not readily available. Linda Channell, (740) 548-6874, 88 Ravine Rd, Powell, OH 43065 Let me make THE NEWCOMERS TO MENTAL ILLNESS aware that HYPE ABOUT THE LATEST ANTIDEPRESSANT HAS EVERYTHING TO DO WITH THE BILLIONS OF DOLLARS THAT WILL BE MADE ON THE DRUG, and the only time you will hear about THE NEGATIVES about that drug will be when it comes off-patent. Now that we have generic prozac, we will hear more about side effects like NO LIBIDO, WEIGHT GAIN, SUICIDE, AND OTHER  EFEECTS.  Of course, as long as Paxil and Zoloft have no generics, MEDIA HYPE will be still muted, but give it time.  Just as all the SSRI’s go generic, we will hear about ALL THE NEGATIVES and out will come the new batch of 8 TO 12 WEEK STUDIED ANTIDEPRESSANTS to start the new profit cycle.  People with mental illness are just pawns, half ass useless meds are approved based on 8 week studies, NO REASON FOR A LONG TERM STUDY, we really don’t want to KNOW THE TRUTH, and as soon as the generics start rolling out, OUT COMES THE DIRTY LAUNDRY, not to HELP US, NO, ONLY SO THAT WE GO ON THE LATEST $5 PILL THAT HAS A 80% SUCCESS RATE AND EVEN LESS SIDE EFFECTS.  Hell as long as everyone is making money, who cares about THE CRAZIES that take the product, we just need them alive and taking their meds.  Now I forget, was I taking about the cigarette industry or drug companies, HELL WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE.  This of course is just the opinion of a mentally ill patient with 15 years of experience popping pills, all of which have a 70% effective rate, but I guess I am the exception, "ALIVE" AND NOT SUICIDAL, AND NOT HAPPY ABOUT IT. White Knight

Response:

Question:

Excellent post Gordo thats why my GI told me not to take it on tx. I wouldn’t want to take anything that could give a false reading on my labs while on tx. No way!                                              Juanita

Response:

Thanks for passing that on, Gordo. Should I or shouldn’t I?  The answer is only one phone call away.  Call or no call? Naw, I don’t wanna know.   Elmo ////////////   I think I was the one who started this last year when I was on tx. Here’s the background: We use a family of enzymes called "Cytochrome P450" (or "CYP") to get rid of a lot of substances (such as many drugs) from our bodies. The amount of a drug (such as ribavirin) that you take and how often you take it is based on how fast your body gets rid of it. You need a certain amount in you for the drug to work, and the faster your body gets rid of it the more you have to take, and you have to take it more often. So if I’m taking a drug that is metabolized by a CYP, and I take another drug that changes how that CYP works (slows it down or speeds it up) then there’s the potential that I could end up with way too much of the first drug (because it’s not getting cleared as fast) or too little (because it’s getting cleared too fast.) Possible overdose, or the drug just won’t work. It gets kind of technical but if you like this stuff I thought this site was a good overview: http://www.anaesthetist.com/physiol/basics/metabol/cyp/cyp.htm#all Milk Thistle has repeatedly been shown to impair one of the CYP enzymes – CYP3A4 – and had a significant impact on the metabolism of several substances that are metabolized by that enzyme. This is exactly the same situation that has caused many toxic drug interactions. Where it gets confusing is that these studies are done using liver cells in cultures and there’s one study that looked for, and didn’t find, the same effects in people. So what’s this mean for people on treatment? From: http://www.drugs.com/PDR/Ribavirin__USP_Capsules.html "Results of in vitro studies using both human and rat liver microsome preparations indicated little or no cytochrome P450 enzyme-mediated metabolism of ribavirin, with minimal potential for P450 enzyme-based drug interactions." So there doesn’t seem to be a potential for interaction with Ribavirin. Same thing for pegasys: "Peginterferon-a -2a (40kD) showed no significant effects on drug metabolism mediated by CYP2C9, 2C19, 2D6 and 3A4 isoenzymes in healthy nonsmoking male volunteers." (from http://janis7hepc.com/differences_between_pegasys_and.htm) People on tx tend to take a lot of other drugs, though, and this site lists a lot of drugs that use the same enzyme that Milk Thistle, in the lab, has been shown to inhibit: http://www.catie.ca/supple-e.nsf/0/7b09aa55a412896c85256c6e0070bf60?O… ocument The effects of Milk Thistle are mostly based on "I took it and it made my liver better" reports, and by looking at its activity in cells in test tubes – the same type of test tubes that show it has a negative interaction with some other drugs (meaning of someone is going to use the argument that the test tube studies don’t apply to bodies, they have to admit that it applies to the supposed benefits as well.) One recent clinical study which attempted to show some benefit to using it found none at all: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/05/050504003425.htm So end result: there is no predicted interaction with interferon or ribavirin. There is a possible interaction with a lot of other drugs that people on tx take (and that I was taking). A recent study shows that it doesn’t seem to have the beneficial effect that people have been saying it has. I decided not to take it. Gordo In article <L9nwe.5387$Bn6.179@trndny08

, "john" <otk…@hotmail.com

wrote: To be honest, everyone in the group is saying it’s not good to take milk thistle while on interferon and the doc said its fine.With the vast knowledge from this group i have learned more in 2 days here then 9 monthes with the doctor.Thanks everyone…… "AguaGirl" <some…@somewhere.com

wrote in message

news:RYGdnWWn6JIr9FzfRVn-iA@adelphia.com… <elmoemer…@webtv.net

wrote in message

news:10915-42C08C99-698@storefull-3256.bay.webtv.net… ahahahahahahahahaha!!! If it was good for good ole AG, it must be good for you. Her response to you defies what many knowledgable experts on the matter have stated. Milk thistle has a history of interfering with the absorbtion of other drugs and it’s not known for sure if it has the same negative effect on combination drugs, but many of the hepc experts recommend not taking it while on tx. Why chance it? AG’s response isn’t so much about milk thistle as it is about disagreeing with me. LOL. As she said though, do your research and you’ll see there’s been much speculation about whether you should take milk thistle and do tx at the same time. Elmo Your wrong elmo. I honestly don’t give you much thought one way or the other….and I didn’t say it was good for everyone. I basically said there is disagreement in the medical community about milk thistles interaction with the tx. You are not a doctor nor am I. John has a doctor. What I told John was to run EVERYTHING he reads or hears past his doctor which is what I did. (which is why I continued to take it). Your first post sounded definitive. The case against milk thistle is speculative…which is exactly what I said and what you parroted in your reply. I didn’t even disagree with what you posted at first, merely said it wasn’t ‘fact’ as much as speculation. AG http://community.webtv.net/elmoemerson/DocElmosHepFile http://community.webtv.net/elmoemerson/TheFamilyAlbum

Response:

In article <10915-42C08C99-…@storefull-3256.bay.webtv.net

,

 elmoemer…@webtv.net wrote:

 Milk thistle has a history of interfering with the absorbtion of other drugs and it’s not known for sure if it has the same negative effect on combination drugs, but many of the hepc experts recommend not taking it while on tx.  Why chance it?

The active ingredient in Milk Thistle has the _potential_ to interfere with a liver enzyme which is used by the body to metabolize many different drugs. One study with one anti-HIV Protease Inhibitor showed that taking it with Milk Thistle somewhat reduced the amount that was absorbed from one dose but most importantly, when levels of the PI were measured at the "trough" point – right before the next scheduled dose – it was an average of 25% and as much as 60% lower than it should be.  That’s significant and bad and could lead to resistance. So even though some people take it with other meds with no apparent problems, there is evidence that the potential it has to interfere is very real. Seems to me that something of such unproven benefit – which at least one study has shown to have no benefit – that has the potential to cause problems isn’t something I’d want to take while taking other serious meds. From: http://www.catie.ca/supple-e.nsf/0/7b09aa55a412896c85256c6e0070bf60?O… ocument ————— Below is a short list of some other medications that are processed through the CYP3A4 enzyme. Based on the effect of milk thistle on liver enzymes in the lab, it is possible that levels of these medications may increase if taken by people who are also using milk thistle. This list is not exhaustive:    

Question:

Thanks for your reply Doug.  :-)  I’m going to send it to my friend who asked the Effexor question.  So sorry it pooped out on you.  So many meds do that after a while.  {{{{{Doug}}}}} Di

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anyone taking Effexor?  How do you like it for panic/anxiety?  Any side effects?  You can post positives and negatives.  I don’t mind.  :-)  TIA Hugs, Di Diane, I took Effexor for about a year and found it to be approximately equal to Paxil.  That is, it significantly reduced my overall anxiety level, but couldn’t stop situational panic attacks.  A benzo was necessary to stop or prevent a panic attack.  (I have sp, not pd so I don’t know if a comparison can be made re. the pa’s.) I don’t recall the Effexor dose (either 75 or 150 mg per day), but it had roughly the same effect as my previous 40 mg of Paxil/day.  Since I had an abnormally high no. of side effects both on Paxil and Effexor, my comments in this area probably aren’t worth much to you so I’ll just skip them.  One major negative and it was a dandy:  After 1 year, the Effexor just quit working and I had to go back on Paxil. However, as you already know, if one drug stops working, another in the same category may very well get the job done. Doug

Response:

Anyone taking Effexor?  How do you like it for panic/anxiety?  Any side effects?  You can post positives and negatives.  I don’t mind.  :-)  TIA Hugs, Di

Response:

Anyone taking Effexor?  How do you like it for panic/anxiety?  Any side effects?  You can post positives and negatives.  I don’t mind.  :-)  TIA Hugs, Di

Hi Di! Pros: blocks PAs Cons: can raise your blood pressure so you have to monitor it on a regular basis; discontinuation syndrome when withdrawaling from the med tends to be more difficult than with most of the SSRIs (Paxil also tends to have a difficult withdrawal syndrome) Chip

Response:

I took effexor for panic/anxiety.  It didn’t do much for me besides the one side effect that I developed on the first day of taking it.  It was a dry cough that wouldn’t stop.  Especially at night.  I stopped taking it after 2 weeks, and still haven’t tried anything else.  Doing much better on my own, but of course there’s those off days.  LIKE TODAY!! S

Response:

do a search on google groups for many more answers than you could possibly read – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anyone taking Effexor?  How do you like it for panic/anxiety?  Any side effects?  You can post positives and negatives.  I don’t mind.  :-)  TIA Hugs, Di

Response:

Hi, Di, Don’t know anything about Effexor.  Probably one of the only meds I haven’t tried…  Are you thinking of going on it??? smiles, Elise

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anyone taking Effexor?  How do you like it for panic/anxiety?  Any side effects?  You can post positives and negatives.  I don’t mind.  :-)  TIA Hugs, Di

Response:

Effexor (the non-XR variant) did nothing but make me more nervous. As a matter of fact the first few hours after taking effexor were so bad I had to plan when to take it. It also had some other bad side effects too (at least for me). -Doug

Response:

Anyone taking Effexor?  How do you like it for panic/anxiety?  Any side effects?  You can post positives and negatives.  I don’t mind.  :-)  TIA

Hi Diane, I take 225 mgs of Effexor SR. I also take klonazepam, .5 during the day and 1mg at night. I was on Paxil before that and it pooped out. I credit the Effexor with giving me my creativity back. I didn’t have any bad side effects, just slight nausea for a couple of days each time I increased the dose. But it’s worked well for depression and anxiety. The klonazepam helps for the anxiety, but eventually I will probably need less of it. The Effexor would be forever or until it poops out. Regards, kg.

Response:

Anyone taking Effexor?  How do you like it for panic/anxiety?  Any side effects?  You can post positives and negatives.  I don’t mind.  :-)  TIA Hugs, Di

Hi Diane! I take 150mg of Effexor XR daily. It helped me with anxiety/PAs, as well as depression. I had insomnia first few days that I went on it, and a little stomach discomfort, but other than that nothing. It *is* hard, however, to discontinue taking it – you have to wean off *very* slowly and be prepared for some flu-like symptoms and what have been referred to as "brain zaps", but I hear if you take your time weaning off these side effects are much milder or non-existent. I didn’t wean off as slowly as I should have. I went by the drug company’s recommendations, which were *not* helpful! HTH! Karen

Response:

Effexor XR has worked like a charm for me.  I started in the third week in June at 37.5mg.  The inital side effects were pretty tough, nausea, dizziness, lack of energy, sweating, and just a general foggy feeling which is hard to describe.  The side effects only lasted about a week and a half and the only real benefit from the starting dose was a mild mood improvement.  I started 75mg in the second week of july, no side effects but within 4 or 5 days I started to notice an improvement and began to get out more regularily with the aid of benzo.  The improvements increased over the next month and with the aid of the odd ativan, I pretty much had my life back and did what I pleased.  I still had some anxiety but it was more uncomfortable than controlling.   By mid september I cut the ativan out completely and realized that I just didn’t need it anymore and haven’t taken one since.  I suggested to my pdoc to up my effexor to 112.5mg to see if it would elimate even the mild and rare anxiety and within a week it did.  Anxiety is sometimes in the back of my mind but its almost like it was before when I didn’t even know what it was.  For the most part, I simply don’t even think about it. I suggest trying it and if the side effects come on strong, stick through it.  Its worth the chance of seeing if it can defeat the anxiety

Response:

Thanks Eros!  My friend will really appreciate this post.  I’m so happy for you that it’s working that well.  :-)  Please take care. Hugs, Di

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Effexor XR has worked like a charm for me.  I started in the third week in June at 37.5mg.  The inital side effects were pretty tough, nausea, dizziness, lack of energy, sweating, and just a general foggy feeling which is hard to describe.  The side effects only lasted about a week and a half and the only real benefit from the starting dose was a mild mood improvement.  I started 75mg in the second week of july, no side effects but within 4 or 5 days I started to notice an improvement and began to get out more regularily with the aid of benzo.  The improvements increased over the next month and with the aid of the odd ativan, I pretty much had my life back and did what I pleased.  I still had some anxiety but it was more uncomfortable than controlling.   By mid september I cut the ativan out completely and realized that I just didn’t need it anymore and haven’t taken one since.  I suggested to my pdoc to up my effexor to 112.5mg to see if it would elimate even the mild and rare anxiety and within a week it did.  Anxiety is sometimes in the back of my mind but its almost like it was before when I didn’t even know what it was.  For the most part, I simply don’t even think about it. I suggest trying it and if the side effects come on strong, stick through it.  Its worth the chance of seeing if it can defeat the anxiety

Response:

I am taking 75mg Effexor with Neurontin and Klonopin. I started out at 37.5 mg of Effexor for a week, then went to 75mg/day. I see my psydoc on May 21, and I am wondering if she will increase the dosage at that time, as I have read that effexor, being a tricyclic, is usually increased to higher dosages than the 75mg that I am presently taking. It seems to work OK,although I still need the klonopin as a back-up (three 1g tablets/day) to keep the anxiety at bay. I would like to hear from any effexor users about dosage increases and what dosage you are taking and if your doc increased the dosages gradually.  Thanks! —

Response:

I am taking 75mg Effexor with Neurontin and Klonopin. I started out at 37.5 mg of Effexor for a week, then went to 75mg/day. I see my psydoc on May 21, and I am wondering if she will increase the dosage at that time, as I have read that effexor, being a tricyclic, is usually increased to higher dosages than the 75mg that I am presently taking. It seems to work OK,although I still need the klonopin as a back-up (three 1g tablets/day) to keep the anxiety at bay. I would like to hear from any effexor users about dosage increases and what dosage you are taking and if your doc increased the dosages gradually.  Thanks!

     I titrated from 75 mg/day to 150 mg/day in a month or so.  You could increase the dose faster than a month (every four days or so), however I had to switch doctors in my case.  By the way, venlafaxine (Effexor) isn’t a tricyclic. Chris

Response:

I started out on 37.5 mg in Feb along with other meds, am now presently up to 300mg a day/ and still need klonapin . I think it will depend on how you adjust with each dose increase.  GOOD LUCK TO U

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi…. insomnia and other side effects….I expected this and have been going SLOWLY…but the lower I go, the worse it seems to be getting….. My doc prescribed 150mg of Effexor to help smooth the transition….I have taken MANY antidepressants in the past few years…..the problem is I gained From what I read, Effexor could either cause gain or loss….anyone have any input on this?  And how effective is it for the anxiety I feel now…which is not much….but will probably grow as I continue to decrease on my meds….. Please email me if possible as I don’t always check this newsgroup….. JOHN NEW JERSEY

Hi John: Well..I have gotten over the "transition" period with Effexor XR. I take 75mg’s a day, and 9mgs a day of Lectopam (a benzodiazepine..like klonipin..but not available in the U.S.) I don’t really see why you need to be taken off the klonipin, especially if you are going on the Effexor. The two have REALLY changed my life around. It took a few weeks alone..after coming off other meds, but a benzodiazepine calms me well while the Effexor XR (which seems to have THE best clincal track record) keeps me level and energized. Plus, I have actually started to lose weight. Unlike the SRI’s, Effexor is an SNRI, and the serotonin seems to balance out the effects of the norepinephrine increase. Plus, I find no real difficulties with fatigue, irritability, insomnia (was only tough at first..but built up from 37,5mgs), and even no reduced libido. If you aren’t on the XR..I would suggest looking into it…plus..if 150mgs is too tough at first..tell your doctor you’d like to start at between 50, and 75mgs. The Canadian monograph for Effexor XR suggests 75mgs once daily appears to be the "optimal"..150mg’s IF needed…higher doses reserved for hospitalized patients. (Which, I can’t understand why docs are precribing 300mg’s of this stuff to some people, not in psychiatric care???) With benzodiazepines you can develop "dependence", but NOT addiction, as plenty of medical research shows. I will send you medical articles if you like to show you the difference. With dependence, all’s that mean’s is you have to withdraw from it "slowly"….but you do not "crave" higher doses..and it too, is a very safe medication. Talk to your doc..and get back to us. Best wishes.. James — God(s), grant me the Senility To forget the people I never liked anyway, The good fortune To run over the ones I do, And the eyesight To tell the difference. Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country.     —Mayor Marion Barry, Washington, D.C. Neurosis is simply THE human condition; some just haven’t realized it yet. Anon

Response:

Hi…. insomnia and other side effects….I expected this and have been going SLOWLY…but the lower I go, the worse it seems to be getting….. My doc prescribed 150mg of Effexor to help smooth the transition….I have taken MANY antidepressants in the past few years…..the problem is I gained From what I read, Effexor could either cause gain or loss….anyone have any input on this?  And how effective is it for the anxiety I feel now…which is not much….but will probably grow as I continue to decrease on my meds….. Please email me if possible as I don’t always check this newsgroup….. JOHN NEW JERSEY

Response:

Miss Bruinhilde, a 6ft square block of womanhood with the biggest set of hooters I’ve ever seen. She got a good grip of both ears with her huge plate sized hands, pulled my head back between the triple Z cups and told the dentist to give it his best shot. I guarantee my head didn’t even

Any chance I could pay this Miss Bruinhilde to pay a visit to a certain male Aussie? <VBEG Jackie

Response:

WARNING: This contains stuff a graphic, but humourous, recounting of                   a dental procedure that may disturb anyone about                   to visit a dentist – or who should be – you                   listening  Philip??   )

Me? No, of course not! ) < snipped something to get to the *root* of the story <g – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve been very fortunate to have a reasonably good set of fangs and no fear of dentistry, but having my one and only wisdom tooth removed was both hilarious and heart stopping. The tooth was really well rooted into the gum and no matter how much the dentist yanked on it, it wouldn’t budge. He thought part of the problem was the movement of my head when he was applying maximum pressure, so initially he got this very petite nurse to hold my head still. Naturally that didn’t work. She ended up being tossed from side to side like a seasick sailor. So Miss Petite was promptly replaced by Miss Bruinhilde, a 6ft square block of womanhood with the biggest set of hooters I’ve ever seen. She got a good grip of both ears with her huge plate sized hands, pulled my head back between the triple Z cups and told the dentist to give it his best shot. I guarantee my head didn’t even move a nanometre as the fang doctor yanked and twisted away for what seemed like hours. Finally, there was the almighty crack and the dentist went flying right over me and the chair, smashing his shoulder into the instrument tray/spittoon thingy on the way. So it ended up hurting him a lot more than me. I never felt a thing, except for the ears. They hurt like hell for some days!!  :-( Ian

ROTFL! Could have been a Buster Keaton movie….. Brrrr…. thanks for scaring me ) Philip (LOL) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I know what you mean about sitting in a chair through a long dental procedure. this is my concern. I had an awful choking symptom last time. The dentist was reassuring but I still felt awful. I’ll make sure I have plenty of medication and I’ll be taking the tram, not driving. Good luck with the endoscopy, Meryl Funny you should mention this but I need to go to the dentist too  as soon as I can but have been putting it off. I need a root canal and the tooth goes through "quiet" times and the flares up some. My fear is that I will get in the chair and half way through the root canal I will panic and want to jump out of the chair which obviously I couldn’t if the root is exposed. If it were for just a cleaning I could handle it because I know in my head that I could stop if I panich. He said he could refer me to an endodontist who could "knock" me out, but I’m not sure how much that would cost. Anyhow, tomorrow I will face a similar situation. I have to go for an endoscopy at 2:30 PM and am afraid of the same thing and wan’t sure how much xanax I could take prior to going. I guess I should call my psychiatrist Thanks, Carmen I can see why you are confused! I take 1 mg of Xanax in the morning, .5 or 1 mg at lunchtime (depends on stress levels) and 1 mg at night. However tomorrow I will double the morning and lunchtime doses as I am going to the dentist. This is all with my psychiatrist’s permission/advice. I have been taking Xanax for 5 or 6 years and have not needed to increase my dosage. I started Efexor XR in September ‘99 (75 mg). This was increased to 150 mg this September. The Efexor is for depression. the Efexor/Xanax combo seems to work for me. Thanks Meryl Carmen Good luck, Meryl Hi Carmen, I also take Efexor XR (150) and Xanax (3 x 1mg). I suggest that it might be better to stay on your prescribed Xanax dose while you are adjusting to the increase in Efexor.  I find the combination works well for me. Remember the Xanax only works for a limited time and you are still having some panic symptoms. Take care, Meryl Thanks Jacke, that’s what I’m gonna do. He just upped it this past week and I think it just might be helping. I’m still having the attacks on and off every day but there seems to be a suttle lessening of the "intensity" of the attacks. Been getting shaky and anxious but the hot flash/rush is not there very much like it was a week ago. I hope I’m right. Anyhow, today was a pretty good day all in all, so I’ll just try to take it a day at a time. BTW, from the beginning of November, I had  been taking 1mg of xanax 3 times a day. That was after I got out of the hospital. When the severe attacks started (about 10 days ago) there were times I took it 4 times just to survive. Today I have only taken 2 doses of 1 mg , the last dose was at 2:45 this afternoon and I feel like I might not need another dose but I’m afraid it will effect me later. Not sure what to do and I can’t get the doc tonight, there is a fill in doc for the weekend I believe. Any advice??? Thanks again, Carmen My p doc just upped my Effexor XR from 150 mg to 225 ( 3 pills , 2 in the morning and 1 of them at 1:00 PM. I’m not sure but I may have not taken the 1 in the afternoon tablet. I just fixed my pill box and got them messed up a bit. Anyhow, my question is, should I take one and possibly be getting an extra 75mg or just wait till tomorrow. I’m also on Neurontin and in  the box they look so must alike. I have to take so many pills, I can’t hardly keep up with them even with the pillbox. Thanks anyone, Carmen Dear Carmen, Whenever in doubt, don`t take the pill. Just get back on track tomorrow. I have done this with my Paxil and thyroid med  Take care. Jackie

Response:

Well Gee Thanks Ian, I’ll keep that horror story in mind when I return to the dentist on Thursday! Meryl

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – WARNING: This contains stuff a graphic, but humourous, recounting of                   a dental procedure that may disturb anyone about                   to visit a dentist – or who should be – you                   listening  Philip??   ) Hi Carmen,  Calling your psychiatrist sounds a good idea. 12 months ago I needed a colonoscopy. My GP told me to double my Xanax the night before and double them the morning of the procedure. His comment was that they will want you sedated anyway. Of course I told the anaesthetist (I had IV sedation). He understood about PD and mercifully I knew nothing of the procedure until it was over. Meryl, my mother had half her intestines removed a couple of years ago and now has colonoscopies regularly. I haven’t checked, but I’m fairly sure that they use one of the benzos IV to sedate her, and dad tells me that he’s getting worried about how much she is starting to enjoy the experience!!!!! (stand by for the "We told you benzos were addictive" comments from the usual loosers!!) <VBEG As for root canal work, my daughter had IV sedation when she had her wisdom teeth removed. The alternative was a general. I know the prices here but I’m not sure how they would compare. I’ve been very fortunate to have a reasonably good set of fangs and no fear of dentistry, but having my one and only wisdom tooth removed was both hilarious and heart stopping. The tooth was really well rooted into the gum and no matter how much the dentist yanked on it, it wouldn’t budge. He thought part of the problem was the movement of my head when he was applying maximum pressure, so initially he got this very petite nurse to hold my head still. Naturally that didn’t work. She ended up being tossed from side to side like a seasick sailor. So Miss Petite was promptly replaced by Miss Bruinhilde, a 6ft square block of womanhood with the biggest set of hooters I’ve ever seen. She got a good grip of both ears with her huge plate sized hands, pulled my head back between the triple Z cups and told the dentist to give it his best shot. I guarantee my head didn’t even move a nanometre as the fang doctor yanked and twisted away for what seemed like hours. Finally, there was the almighty crack and the dentist went flying right over me and the chair, smashing his shoulder into the instrument tray/spittoon thingy on the way. So it ended up hurting him a lot more than me. I never felt a thing, except for the ears. They hurt like hell for some days!!  :-( Ian I know what you mean about sitting in a chair through a long dental procedure. this is my concern. I had an awful choking symptom last time. The dentist was reassuring but I still felt awful. I’ll make sure I have plenty of medication and I’ll be taking the tram, not driving. Good luck with the endoscopy, Meryl Funny you should mention this but I need to go to the dentist too  as soon as I can but have been putting it off. I need a root canal and the tooth goes through "quiet" times and the flares up some. My fear is that I will get in the chair and half way through the root canal I will panic and want to jump out of the chair which obviously I couldn’t if the root is exposed. If it were for just a cleaning I could handle it because I know in my head that I could stop if I panich. He said he could refer me to an endodontist who could "knock" me out, but I’m not sure how much that would cost. Anyhow, tomorrow I will face a similar situation. I have to go for an endoscopy at 2:30 PM and am afraid of the same thing and wan’t sure how much xanax I could take prior to going. I guess I should call my psychiatrist Thanks, Carmen I can see why you are confused! I take 1 mg of Xanax in the morning, .5 or 1 mg at lunchtime (depends on stress levels) and 1 mg at night. However tomorrow I will double the morning and lunchtime doses as I am going to the dentist. This is all with my psychiatrist’s permission/advice. I have been taking Xanax for 5 or 6 years and have not needed to increase my dosage. I started Efexor XR in September ‘99 (75 mg). This was increased to 150 mg this September. The Efexor is for depression. the Efexor/Xanax combo seems to work for me. Thanks Meryl Carmen Good luck, Meryl Hi Carmen, I also take Efexor XR (150) and Xanax (3 x 1mg). I suggest that it might be better to stay on your prescribed Xanax dose while you are adjusting to the increase in Efexor.  I find the combination works well for me. Remember the Xanax only works for a limited time and you are still having some panic symptoms. Take care, Meryl Thanks Jacke, that’s what I’m gonna do. He just upped it this past week and I think it just might be helping. I’m still having the attacks on and off every day but there seems to be a suttle lessening of the "intensity" of the attacks. Been getting shaky and anxious but the hot flash/rush is not there very much like it was a week ago. I hope I’m right. Anyhow, today was a pretty good day all in all, so I’ll just try to take it a day at a time. BTW, from the beginning of November, I had  been taking 1mg of xanax 3 times a day. That was after I got out of the hospital. When the severe attacks started (about 10 days ago) there were times I took it 4 times just to survive. Today I have only taken 2 doses of 1 mg , the last dose was at 2:45 this afternoon and I feel like I might not need another dose but I’m afraid it will effect me later. Not sure what to do and I can’t get the doc tonight, there is a fill in doc for the weekend I believe. Any advice??? Thanks again, Carmen My p doc just upped my Effexor XR from 150 mg to 225 ( 3 pills , 2 in the morning and 1 of them at 1:00 PM. I’m not sure but I may have not taken the 1 in the afternoon tablet. I just fixed my pill box and got them messed up a bit. Anyhow, my question is, should I take one and possibly be getting an extra 75mg or just wait till tomorrow. I’m also on Neurontin and in  the box they look so must alike. I have to take so many pills, I can’t hardly keep up with them even with the pillbox. Thanks anyone, Carmen Dear Carmen, Whenever in doubt, don`t take the pill. Just get back on track tomorrow. I have done this with my Paxil and thyroid med  Take care. Jackie

Response:

I guess I can ask, but I would think he had a reason for the times for the doses? Thanks, Carmen

I’m sure he has. They do tend to get set in their ways. The tricyclic AD I take has a half-life only slightly shorter than the known age of the universe, so it shouldn’t matter when I take it. But I find I do better when I split the dose into three and take 1/3 at about the times I mentioned. Now it may be that its all just my imagination, but it may not all be. Ian – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I take 2 – 75mg tablets when I get up . Total  of 150mgs.  Then I take 1-75mg tablet at 1:00 in the afternoon. Total of 225mg. They are XR. they are a capsule, sort of pinkish. Thanks, Carmen Just a thought, and one you should run past your doc before acting on, but why not take in when you get up, one at 1PM and one when you go to bed. Ian

Response:

WARNING: This contains stuff a graphic, but humourous, recounting of                   a dental procedure that may disturb anyone about                   to visit a dentist – or who should be – you                   listening  Philip??   ) Hi Carmen,  Calling your psychiatrist sounds a good idea. 12 months ago I needed a colonoscopy. My GP told me to double my Xanax the night before and double them the morning of the procedure. His comment was that they will want you sedated anyway. Of course I told the anaesthetist (I had IV sedation). He understood about PD and mercifully I knew nothing of the procedure until it was over.

Meryl, my mother had half her intestines removed a couple of years ago and now has colonoscopies regularly. I haven’t checked, but I’m fairly sure that they use one of the benzos IV to sedate her, and dad tells me that he’s getting worried about how much she is starting to enjoy the experience!!!!! (stand by for the "We told you benzos were addictive" comments from the usual loosers!!) <VBEG As for root canal work, my daughter had IV sedation when she had her wisdom teeth removed. The alternative was a general. I know the prices here but I’m not sure how they would compare.

I’ve been very fortunate to have a reasonably good set of fangs and no fear of dentistry, but having my one and only wisdom tooth removed was both hilarious and heart stopping. The tooth was really well rooted into the gum and no matter how much the dentist yanked on it, it wouldn’t budge. He thought part of the problem was the movement of my head when he was applying maximum pressure, so initially he got this very petite nurse to hold my head still. Naturally that didn’t work. She ended up being tossed from side to side like a seasick sailor. So Miss Petite was promptly replaced by Miss Bruinhilde, a 6ft square block of womanhood with the biggest set of hooters I’ve ever seen. She got a good grip of both ears with her huge plate sized hands, pulled my head back between the triple Z cups and told the dentist to give it his best shot. I guarantee my head didn’t even move a nanometre as the fang doctor yanked and twisted away for what seemed like hours. Finally, there was the almighty crack and the dentist went flying right over me and the chair, smashing his shoulder into the instrument tray/spittoon thingy on the way. So it ended up hurting him a lot more than me. I never felt a thing, except for the ears. They hurt like hell for some days!!  :-( Ian – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I know what you mean about sitting in a chair through a long dental procedure. this is my concern. I had an awful choking symptom last time. The dentist was reassuring but I still felt awful. I’ll make sure I have plenty of medication and I’ll be taking the tram, not driving. Good luck with the endoscopy, Meryl Funny you should mention this but I need to go to the dentist too  as soon as I can but have been putting it off. I need a root canal and the tooth goes through "quiet" times and the flares up some. My fear is that I will get in the chair and half way through the root canal I will panic and want to jump out of the chair which obviously I couldn’t if the root is exposed. If it were for just a cleaning I could handle it because I know in my head that I could stop if I panich. He said he could refer me to an endodontist who could "knock" me out, but I’m not sure how much that would cost. Anyhow, tomorrow I will face a similar situation. I have to go for an endoscopy at 2:30 PM and am afraid of the same thing and wan’t sure how much xanax I could take prior to going. I guess I should call my psychiatrist Thanks, Carmen I can see why you are confused! I take 1 mg of Xanax in the morning, .5 or 1 mg at lunchtime (depends on stress levels) and 1 mg at night. However tomorrow I will double the morning and lunchtime doses as I am going to the dentist. This is all with my psychiatrist’s permission/advice. I have been taking Xanax for 5 or 6 years and have not needed to increase my dosage. I started Efexor XR in September ‘99 (75 mg). This was increased to 150 mg this September. The Efexor is for depression. the Efexor/Xanax combo seems to work for me. Thanks Meryl Carmen Good luck, Meryl Hi Carmen, I also take Efexor XR (150) and Xanax (3 x 1mg). I suggest that it might be better to stay on your prescribed Xanax dose while you are adjusting to the increase in Efexor.  I find the combination works well for me. Remember the Xanax only works for a limited time and you are still having some panic symptoms. Take care, Meryl Thanks Jacke, that’s what I’m gonna do. He just upped it this past week and I think it just might be helping. I’m still having the attacks on and off every day but there seems to be a suttle lessening of the "intensity" of the attacks. Been getting shaky and anxious but the hot flash/rush is not there very much like it was a week ago. I hope I’m right. Anyhow, today was a pretty good day all in all, so I’ll just try to take it a day at a time. BTW, from the beginning of November, I had  been taking 1mg of xanax 3 times a day. That was after I got out of the hospital. When the severe attacks started (about 10 days ago) there were times I took it 4 times just to survive. Today I have only taken 2 doses of 1 mg , the last dose was at 2:45 this afternoon and I feel like I might not need another dose but I’m afraid it will effect me later. Not sure what to do and I can’t get the doc tonight, there is a fill in doc for the weekend I believe. Any advice??? Thanks again, Carmen My p doc just upped my Effexor XR from 150 mg to 225 ( 3 pills , 2 in the morning and 1 of them at 1:00 PM. I’m not sure but I may have not taken the 1 in the afternoon tablet. I just fixed my pill box and got them messed up a bit. Anyhow, my question is, should I take one and possibly be getting an extra 75mg or just wait till tomorrow. I’m also on Neurontin and in  the box they look so must alike. I have to take so many pills, I can’t hardly keep up with them even with the pillbox. Thanks anyone, Carmen Dear Carmen, Whenever in doubt, don`t take the pill. Just get back on track tomorrow. I have done this with my Paxil and thyroid med  Take care. Jackie

Response:

Hi Carmen, I don’t think the timing really matters as they are XR. When I switched from 75 mg to 150 mg I was not sure how to use up my 75 mg tablets. Of course my psych was os. I had originally been advised to take 75 mg at night in case I became nauseated. I discussed the extra 75 mg with a friend who is a psych and he suggested 75 mg at night and 75 mg in the morning. Needless to say being the contrary person I am I took the whole 150 mg at night and it works out fine. (I now how 150 mg capsules). I find if I can simplify when I take my medication I am less likely to miss a dose or become confused. Take care, Meryl

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I take 2 – 75mg tablets when I get up . Total  of 150mgs.  Then I take 1-75mg tablet at 1:00 in the afternoon. Total of 225mg. They are XR. they are a capsule, sort of pinkish. Thanks, Carmen My p doc just upped my Effexor XR from 150 mg to 225 ( 3 pills , 2 in the morning and 1 of them at 1:00 PM. I’m not sure but I may have not taken the 1 in the afternoon tablet. I just fixed my pill box and got them messed up a bit. Anyhow, my question is, should I take one and possibly be getting an extra 75mg or just wait till tomorrow. I’m also on Neurontin and in  the box they look so must alike. I have to take so many pills, I can’t hardly keep up with them even with the pillbox. Thanks anyone, Carmen CARMEN-PLease explain to me what doses are the pills you are taking??? If you are taking 225, you should only be taken 2-one at 150 and one at 75. I take both of mine together in the morning.They are time release form and last 24 hours. Please write back here. Thanks-Julie

Response:

Hi Carmen,  Calling your psychiatrist sounds a good idea. 12 months ago I needed a colonoscopy. My GP told me to double my Xanax the night before and double them the morning of the procedure. His comment was that they will want you sedated anyway. Of course I told the anaesthetist (I had IV sedation). He understood about PD and mercifully I knew nothing of the procedure until it was over. As for root canal work, my daughter had IV sedation when she had her wisdom teeth removed. The alternative was a general. I know the prices here but I’m not sure how they would compare. I know what you mean about sitting in a chair through a long dental procedure. this is my concern. I had an awful choking symptom last time. The dentist was reassuring but I still felt awful. I’ll make sure I have plenty of medication and I’ll be taking the tram, not driving. Good luck with the endoscopy, Meryl

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Funny you should mention this but I need to go to the dentist too  as soon as I can but have been putting it off. I need a root canal and the tooth goes through "quiet" times and the flares up some. My fear is that I will get in the chair and half way through the root canal I will panic and want to jump out of the chair which obviously I couldn’t if the root is exposed. If it were for just a cleaning I could handle it because I know in my head that I could stop if I panich. He said he could refer me to an endodontist who could "knock" me out, but I’m not sure how much that would cost. Anyhow, tomorrow I will face a similar situation. I have to go for an endoscopy at 2:30 PM and am afraid of the same thing and wan’t sure how much xanax I could take prior to going. I guess I should call my psychiatrist Thanks, Carmen I can see why you are confused! I take 1 mg of Xanax in the morning, .5 or 1 mg at lunchtime (depends on stress levels) and 1 mg at night. However tomorrow I will double the morning and lunchtime doses as I am going to the dentist. This is all with my psychiatrist’s permission/advice. I have been taking Xanax for 5 or 6 years and have not needed to increase my dosage. I started Efexor XR in September ‘99 (75 mg). This was increased to 150 mg this September. The Efexor is for depression. the Efexor/Xanax combo seems to work for me. Thanks Meryl Carmen Good luck, Meryl Hi Carmen, I also take Efexor XR (150) and Xanax (3 x 1mg). I suggest that it might be better to stay on your prescribed Xanax dose while you are adjusting to the increase in Efexor.  I find the combination works well for me. Remember the Xanax only works for a limited time and you are still having some panic symptoms. Take care, Meryl Thanks Jacke, that’s what I’m gonna do. He just upped it this past week and I think it just might be helping. I’m still having the attacks on and off every day but there seems to be a suttle lessening of the "intensity" of the attacks. Been getting shaky and anxious but the hot flash/rush is not there very much like it was a week ago. I hope I’m right. Anyhow, today was a pretty good day all in all, so I’ll just try to take it a day at a time. BTW, from the beginning of November, I had  been taking 1mg of xanax 3 times a day. That was after I got out of the hospital. When the severe attacks started (about 10 days ago) there were times I took it 4 times just to survive. Today I have only taken 2 doses of 1 mg , the last dose was at 2:45 this afternoon and I feel like I might not need another dose but I’m afraid it will effect me later. Not sure what to do and I can’t get the doc tonight, there is a fill in doc for the weekend I believe. Any advice??? Thanks again, Carmen My p doc just upped my Effexor XR from 150 mg to 225 ( 3 pills , 2 in the morning and 1 of them at 1:00 PM. I’m not sure but I may have not taken the 1 in the afternoon tablet. I just fixed my pill box and got them messed up a bit. Anyhow, my question is, should I take one and possibly be getting an extra 75mg or just wait till tomorrow. I’m also on Neurontin and in  the box they look so must alike. I have to take so many pills, I can’t hardly keep up with them even with the pillbox. Thanks anyone, Carmen Dear Carmen, Whenever in doubt, don`t take the pill. Just get back on track tomorrow. I have done this with my Paxil and thyroid med  Take care. Jackie

Response:

That’s right. I have a new prescription that I have not filled yet since I still have some of the 75mg tablets. I don’t know but maybe the new prescription has 150mg tablets but I don’t think so. I would think that when he gets me to 300mg maybe they would be 2 – 150mg tablets.

I see no reason NOT to take the 3-75’s all together. I take the 2 150’s together in the morning. I am so forgetful that I wouldn’t remember to take it later in the day. Besides they are the time release capsules. That would work out just fine. But talk with your doctor first. I just refilled all my pill containers last night. I have one for vitamins too. It looks as if I have a drug shop right in my kitchen!!!! I even bought a plastic container to hold all my bottles for me! lol take care Carmen!,Julie

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks Jacke, that’s what I’m gonna do. He just upped it this past week and I think it just might be helping. I’m still having the attacks on and off every day but there seems to be a suttle lessening of the "intensity" of the attacks. Been getting shaky and anxious but the hot flash/rush is not there very much like it was a week ago. I hope I’m right. Anyhow, today was a pretty good day all in all, so I’ll just try to take it a day at a time. BTW, from the beginning of November, I had  been taking 1mg of xanax 3 times a day. That was after I got out of the hospital. When the severe attacks started (about 10 days ago) there were times I took it 4 times just to survive. Today I have only taken 2 doses of 1 mg , the last dose was at 2:45 this afternoon and I feel like I might not need another dose but I’m afraid it will effect me later. Not sure what to do and I can’t get the doc tonight, there is a fill in doc for the weekend I believe. Any advice??? Thanks again, Carmen

Play it by ear, I’d say. If you can manage that would be great. But if you get *interdose anxiety*you can always take one more dose. Philip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My p doc just upped my Effexor XR from 150 mg to 225 ( 3 pills , 2 in the morning and 1 of them at 1:00 PM. I’m not sure but I may have not taken the 1 in the afternoon tablet. I just fixed my pill box and got them messed up a bit. Anyhow, my question is, should I take one and possibly be getting an extra 75mg or just wait till tomorrow. I’m also on Neurontin and in  the box they look so must alike. I have to take so many pills, I can’t hardly keep up with them even with the pillbox. Thanks anyone, Carmen Dear Carmen, Whenever in doubt, don`t take the pill. Just get back on track tomorrow. I have done this with my Paxil and thyroid med  Take care. Jackie

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I guess I can ask, but I would think he had a reason for the times for the doses? Thanks, Carmen I take 2 – 75mg tablets when I get up . Total  of 150mgs.  Then I take 1-75mg tablet at 1:00 in the afternoon. Total of 225mg. They are XR. they are a capsule, sort of pinkish. Thanks, Carmen Just a thought, and one you should run past your doc before acting on, but why not take in when you get up, one at 1PM and one when you go to bed. Ian

if your doc is older then 55 many moons ago it was believed that the timing of medications to approximate some ancient speculated diurnal clock was more effective thus docs rxed the med dosing at various intervals during the day like take 10mg valium at 3pm and an ad 1 hour after-or take the ad before you even put your feet on the floor upon arising etc.. most of this has been debunked over the past 20 years and a few hold out simply to get people to habituate to taking meds at certain times feeling well it can’t hurt to schedule it stringently. LM

Response:

Thanks Meryl, My prescription was really screwed when I got out of the hospital. The filled prescriptions said 1 tablet 4 times a day but the discharge papers said "2" tablets 4 times a day. It was a Friday and the pdoc was out of town so the nurse just said take one and if you need 2 , just take them and she would check on it Monday. Monday came and she called me and said it was suppose to be 2 tablets. BTW, they are .5mg tablets. Anyhow, when I called one day when I had bad panic in the morning and wasn’t sure if I took the 2 tablets I called. She called me back and said " the doctor says that only one of the doses should be for 2 tablets and the rest should be 1 tablet. I told her "the bottle says 2 tablets 4 times a day. She called back again and said she spoke with the doc and he said not to change anything and that I should make an appointment which I did. When I saw him, he increased the Effexor and said he didn’t want to change anything just yet and to take what I have been. I assume he would rather I took less but I already was taking 2 tabs 3 x’s a day. The whole episode threw me into a panic state since I thought I was doing good only taking them 3 times instead of 4. I don’t know how long it takes for my body to go to a withdrawal since I have been taking them now for about 7 weeks. I have an appt with him in 2 weeks and I "assume" he will address the xanax. He had just said to be careful with them as they are "highly addictive". Imagine how I felt when I realized that the dose I was taking was on the high side and I had thought I was doing good with 3 doses. So in essence, he didn’t really "prescribe" any specific amount or times and sort of just said to be careful. I really don’t know what to do.   How often do you take your xanax and when did you start the Effexor? Thanks Meryl Carmen – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Hi Carmen, I also take Efexor XR (150) and Xanax (3 x 1mg). I suggest that it might be better to stay on your prescribed Xanax dose while you are adjusting to the increase in Efexor.  I find the combination works well for me. Remember the Xanax only works for a limited time and you are still having some panic symptoms. Take care, Meryl Thanks Jacke, that’s what I’m gonna do. He just upped it this past week and I think it just might be helping. I’m still having the attacks on and off every day but there seems to be a suttle lessening of the "intensity" of the attacks. Been getting shaky and anxious but the hot flash/rush is not there very much like it was a week ago. I hope I’m right. Anyhow, today was a pretty good day all in all, so I’ll just try to take it a day at a time. BTW, from the beginning of November, I had  been taking 1mg of xanax 3 times a day. That was after I got out of the hospital. When the severe attacks started (about 10 days ago) there were times I took it 4 times just to survive. Today I have only taken 2 doses of 1 mg , the last dose was at 2:45 this afternoon and I feel like I might not need another dose but I’m afraid it will effect me later. Not sure what to do and I can’t get the doc tonight, there is a fill in doc for the weekend I believe. Any advice??? Thanks again, Carmen My p doc just upped my Effexor XR from 150 mg to 225 ( 3 pills , 2 in the morning and 1 of them at 1:00 PM. I’m not sure but I may have not taken the 1 in the afternoon tablet. I just fixed my pill box and got them messed up a bit. Anyhow, my question is, should I take one and possibly be getting an extra 75mg or just wait till tomorrow. I’m also on Neurontin and in  the box they look so must alike. I have to take so many pills, I can’t hardly keep up with them even with the pillbox. Thanks anyone, Carmen Dear Carmen, Whenever in doubt, don`t take the pill. Just get back on track tomorrow. I have done this with my Paxil and thyroid med  Take care. Jackie

Response:

I can ask when I talk to him. I do have a dated pill box but it is so full and it’s "separated with AM – Noon- Dinner- and bedtime. I don’t always take lunch pills at 1:00. My husband does help me remeber tho , sometimes Thanks, Carmen – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – CARMEN-PLease explain to me what doses are the pills you are taking??? If you are taking 225, you should only be taken 2-one at 150 and one at 75. I am sure she is taking 75mg tablets, two in the AM, and one at 1pm. She can`t remember if she took the 3rd pill at 1Pm today. She was asking if she should take the 3rd tablet not knowing whether she had taken it at 1PM or not. I have done the same thing with Paxil and Synthroid, if I can`t remember, I don`t take Jackie Carmen -ask your doctor this, ok? Why do you have to split the 225 in 2 doses… Since the Effexor is the time release version, could you take the 225 all at once. This will eliminate the confusion. Now if you cannot find dated pill boxes, you can use a clean egg carton. Label the first egg holder with Mon-am, then the one behind it Mon afternoon. This way you will have a better track of taking your medication. I know it only covers 6 days, but you can tape an extra egg carton holder on the end to make it seven days. I use a dated pill holder for my pills. If I forget then I do not take it but I am a wreck all day long. Let us know how you are doing.love,Julie

Response:

I guess I can ask, but I would think he had a reason for the times for the doses? Thanks, Carmen – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I take 2 – 75mg tablets when I get up . Total  of 150mgs.  Then I take 1-75mg tablet at 1:00 in the afternoon. Total of 225mg. They are XR. they are a capsule, sort of pinkish. Thanks, Carmen Just a thought, and one you should run past your doc before acting on, but why not take in when you get up, one at 1PM and one when you go to bed. Ian

Response:

I take 2 – 75mg tablets when I get up . Total  of 150mgs.  Then I take 1-75mg tablet at 1:00 in the afternoon. Total of 225mg. They are XR. they are a capsule, sort of pinkish. Thanks, Carmen

Just a thought, and one you should run past your doc before acting on, but why not take in when you get up, one at 1PM and one when you go to bed. Ian

Response:

Funny you should mention this but I need to go to the dentist too  as soon as I can but have been putting it off. I need a root canal and the tooth goes through "quiet" times and the flares up some. My fear is that I will get in the chair and half way through the root canal I will panic and want to jump out of the chair which obviously I couldn’t if the root is exposed. If it were for just a cleaning I could handle it because I know in my head that I could stop if I panich. He said he could refer me to an endodontist who could "knock" me out, but I’m not sure how much that would cost. Anyhow, tomorrow I will face a similar situation. I have to go for an endoscopy at 2:30 PM and am afraid of the same thing and wan’t sure how much xanax I could take prior to going. I guess I should call my psychiatrist Thanks, Carmen – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I can see why you are confused! I take 1 mg of Xanax in the morning, .5 or 1 mg at lunchtime (depends on stress levels) and 1 mg at night. However tomorrow I will double the morning and lunchtime doses as I am going to the dentist. This is all with my psychiatrist’s permission/advice. I have been taking Xanax for 5 or 6 years and have not needed to increase my dosage. I started Efexor XR in September ‘99 (75 mg). This was increased to 150 mg this September. The Efexor is for depression. the Efexor/Xanax combo seems to work for me. Thanks Meryl Carmen Good luck, Meryl Hi Carmen, I also take Efexor XR (150) and Xanax (3 x 1mg). I suggest that it might be better to stay on your prescribed Xanax dose while you are adjusting to the increase in Efexor.  I find the combination works well for me. Remember the Xanax only works for a limited time and you are still having some panic symptoms. Take care, Meryl Thanks Jacke, that’s what I’m gonna do. He just upped it this past week and I think it just might be helping. I’m still having the attacks on and off every day but there seems to be a suttle lessening of the "intensity" of the attacks. Been getting shaky and anxious but the hot flash/rush is not there very much like it was a week ago. I hope I’m right. Anyhow, today was a pretty good day all in all, so I’ll just try to take it a day at a time. BTW, from the beginning of November, I had  been taking 1mg of xanax 3 times a day. That was after I got out of the hospital. When the severe attacks started (about 10 days ago) there were times I took it 4 times just to survive. Today I have only taken 2 doses of 1 mg , the last dose was at 2:45 this afternoon and I feel like I might not need another dose but I’m afraid it will effect me later. Not sure what to do and I can’t get the doc tonight, there is a fill in doc for the weekend I believe. Any advice??? Thanks again, Carmen My p doc just upped my Effexor XR from 150 mg to 225 ( 3 pills , 2 in the morning and 1 of them at 1:00 PM. I’m not sure but I may have not taken the 1 in the afternoon tablet. I just fixed my pill box and got them messed up a bit. Anyhow, my question is, should I take one and possibly be getting an extra 75mg or just wait till tomorrow. I’m also on Neurontin and in  the box they look so must alike. I have to take so many pills, I can’t hardly keep up with them even with the pillbox. Thanks anyone, Carmen Dear Carmen, Whenever in doubt, don`t take the pill. Just get back on track tomorrow. I have done this with my Paxil and thyroid med  Take care. Jackie

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – CARMEN-PLease explain to me what doses are the pills you are taking??? If you are taking 225, you should only be taken 2-one at 150 and one at 75. I am sure she is taking 75mg tablets, two in the AM, and one at 1pm. She can`t remember if she took the 3rd pill at 1Pm today. She was asking if she should take the 3rd tablet not knowing whether she had taken it at 1PM or not. I have done the same thing with Paxil and Synthroid, if I can`t remember, I don`t take Jackie

Carmen -ask your doctor this, ok? Why do you have to split the 225 in 2 doses… Since the Effexor is the time release version, could you take the 225 all at once. This will eliminate the confusion. Now if you cannot find dated pill boxes, you can use a clean egg carton. Label the first egg holder with Mon-am, then the one behind it Mon afternoon. This way you will have a better track of taking your medication. I know it only covers 6 days, but you can tape an extra egg carton holder on the end to make it seven days. I use a dated pill holder for my pills. If I forget then I do not take it but I am a wreck all day long. Let us know how you are doing.love,Julie

Response:

Hi Carmen,

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks Meryl, My prescription was really screwed when I got out of the hospital. The filled prescriptions said 1 tablet 4 times a day but the discharge papers said "2" tablets 4 times a day. It was a Friday and the pdoc was out of town so the nurse just said take one and if you need 2 , just take them and she would check on it Monday. Monday came and she called me and said it was suppose to be 2 tablets. BTW, they are .5mg tablets. Anyhow, when I called one day when I had bad panic in the morning and wasn’t sure if I took the 2 tablets I called. She called me back and said " the doctor says that only one of the doses should be for 2 tablets and the rest should be 1 tablet. I told her "the bottle says 2 tablets 4 times a day. She called back again and said she spoke with the doc and he said not to change anything and that I should make an appointment which I did. When I saw him, he increased the Effexor and said he didn’t want to change anything just yet and to take what I have been. I assume he would rather I took less but I already was taking 2 tabs 3 x’s a day. The whole episode threw me into a panic state since I thought I was doing good only taking them 3 times instead of 4. I don’t know how long it takes for my body to go to a withdrawal since I have been taking them now for about 7 weeks. I have an appt with him in 2 weeks and I "assume" he will address the xanax. He had just said to be careful with them as they are "highly addictive". Imagine how I felt when I realized that the dose I was taking was on the high side and I had thought I was doing good with 3 doses. So in essence, he didn’t really "prescribe" any specific amount or times and sort of just said to be careful. I really don’t know what to do. How often do you take your xanax and when did you start the Effexor?

I can see why you are confused! I take 1 mg of Xanax in the morning, .5 or 1 mg at lunchtime (depends on stress levels) and 1 mg at night. However tomorrow I will double the morning and lunchtime doses as I am going to the dentist. This is all with my psychiatrist’s permission/advice. I have been taking Xanax for 5 or 6 years and have not needed to increase my dosage. I started Efexor XR in September ‘99 (75 mg). This was increased to 150 mg this September. The Efexor is for depression. the Efexor/Xanax combo seems to work for me. Thanks Meryl Carmen

Good luck, Meryl – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Carmen, I also take Efexor XR (150) and Xanax (3 x 1mg). I suggest that it might be better to stay on your prescribed Xanax dose while you are adjusting to the increase in Efexor.  I find the combination works well for me. Remember the Xanax only works for a limited time and you are still having some panic symptoms. Take care, Meryl Thanks Jacke, that’s what I’m gonna do. He just upped it this past week and I think it just might be helping. I’m still having the attacks on and off every day but there seems to be a suttle lessening of the "intensity" of the attacks. Been getting shaky and anxious but the hot flash/rush is not there very much like it was a week ago. I hope I’m right. Anyhow, today was a pretty good day all in all, so I’ll just try to take it a day at a time. BTW, from the beginning of November, I had  been taking 1mg of xanax 3 times a day. That was after I got out of the hospital. When the severe attacks started (about 10 days ago) there were times I took it 4 times just to survive. Today I have only taken 2 doses of 1 mg , the last dose was at 2:45 this afternoon and I feel like I might not need another dose but I’m afraid it will effect me later. Not sure what to do and I can’t get the doc tonight, there is a fill in doc for the weekend I believe. Any advice??? Thanks again, Carmen My p doc just upped my Effexor XR from 150 mg to 225 ( 3 pills , 2 in the morning and 1 of them at 1:00 PM. I’m not sure but I may have not taken the 1 in the afternoon tablet. I just fixed my pill box and got them messed up a bit. Anyhow, my question is, should I take one and possibly be getting an extra 75mg or just wait till tomorrow. I’m also on Neurontin and in  the box they look so must alike. I have to take so many pills, I can’t hardly keep up with them even with the pillbox. Thanks anyone, Carmen Dear Carmen, Whenever in doubt, don`t take the pill. Just get back on track tomorrow. I have done this with my Paxil and thyroid med  Take care. Jackie

Response:

That’s right. I have a new prescription that I have not filled yet since I still have some of the 75mg tablets. I don’t know but maybe the new prescription has 150mg tablets but I don’t think so. I would think that when he gets me to 300mg maybe they would be 2 – 150mg tablets. I’m just gonna wait till tomorrow to get on track. I took the 2 xanax at 9:45 PM which was good because I hadn’t been able to go beyond 6 hours between doses, sometimes 4 hours. I’m hoping it’s the increased Effexor beginning to help. Anyhow, I guess time will tell. For now I am just grateful to not be shaking and sweating. I’ll speak with the doc tomorrow and find out what to do if I don’t feel like I need one of the doses of xanax. Thanks to all, Carmen – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – CARMEN-PLease explain to me what doses are the pills you are taking??? If you are taking 225, you should only be taken 2-one at 150 and one at 75. I am sure she is taking 75mg tablets, two in the AM, and one at 1pm. She can`t remember if she took the 3rd pill at 1Pm today. She was asking if she should take the 3rd tablet not knowing whether she had taken it at 1PM or not. I have done the same thing with Paxil and Synthroid, if I can`t remember, I don`t take Jackie

Response:

CARMEN-PLease explain to me what doses are the pills you are taking??? If you are taking 225, you should only be taken 2-one at 150 and one at 75.

I am sure she is taking 75mg tablets, two in the AM, and one at 1pm. She can`t remember if she took the 3rd pill at 1Pm today. She was asking if she should take the 3rd tablet not knowing whether she had taken it at 1PM or not. I have done the same thing with Paxil and Synthroid, if I can`t remember, I don`t take Jackie

Response:

I take 2 – 75mg tablets when I get up . Total  of 150mgs.  Then I take 1-75mg tablet at 1:00 in the afternoon. Total of 225mg. They are XR. they are a capsule, sort of pinkish. Thanks, Carmen – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My p doc just upped my Effexor XR from 150 mg to 225 ( 3 pills , 2 in the morning and 1 of them at 1:00 PM. I’m not sure but I may have not taken the 1 in the afternoon tablet. I just fixed my pill box and got them messed up a bit. Anyhow, my question is, should I take one and possibly be getting an extra 75mg or just wait till tomorrow. I’m also on Neurontin and in  the box they look so must alike. I have to take so many pills, I can’t hardly keep up with them even with the pillbox. Thanks anyone, Carmen CARMEN-PLease explain to me what doses are the pills you are taking??? If you are taking 225, you should only be taken 2-one at 150 and one at 75. I take both of mine together in the morning.They are time release form and last 24 hours. Please write back here. Thanks-Julie

Response:

My p doc just upped my Effexor XR from 150 mg to 225 ( 3 pills , 2 in the morning and 1 of them at 1:00 PM. I’m not sure but I may have not taken the 1 in the afternoon tablet. I just fixed my pill box and got them messed up a bit. Anyhow, my question is, should I take one and possibly be getting an extra 75mg or just wait till tomorrow. I’m also on Neurontin and in  the box they look so must alike. I have to take so many pills, I can’t hardly keep up with them even with the pillbox. Thanks anyone, Carmen

CARMEN-PLease explain to me what doses are the pills you are taking??? If you are taking 225, you should only be taken 2-one at 150 and one at 75. I take both of mine together in the morning.They are time release form and last 24 hours. Please write back here. Thanks-Julie

Response:

Hi Carmen, I also take Efexor XR (150) and Xanax (3 x 1mg). I suggest that it might be better to stay on your prescribed Xanax dose while you are adjusting to the increase in Efexor.  I find the combination works well for me. Remember the Xanax only works for a limited time and you are still having some panic symptoms. Take care, Meryl

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks Jacke, that’s what I’m gonna do. He just upped it this past week and I think it just might be helping. I’m still having the attacks on and off every day but there seems to be a suttle lessening of the "intensity" of the attacks. Been getting shaky and anxious but the hot flash/rush is not there very much like it was a week ago. I hope I’m right. Anyhow, today was a pretty good day all in all, so I’ll just try to take it a day at a time. BTW, from the beginning of November, I had  been taking 1mg of xanax 3 times a day. That was after I got out of the hospital. When the severe attacks started (about 10 days ago) there were times I took it 4 times just to survive. Today I have only taken 2 doses of 1 mg , the last dose was at 2:45 this afternoon and I feel like I might not need another dose but I’m afraid it will effect me later. Not sure what to do and I can’t get the doc tonight, there is a fill in doc for the weekend I believe. Any advice??? Thanks again, Carmen My p doc just upped my Effexor XR from 150 mg to 225 ( 3 pills , 2 in the morning and 1 of them at 1:00 PM. I’m not sure but I may have not taken the 1 in the afternoon tablet. I just fixed my pill box and got them messed up a bit. Anyhow, my question is, should I take one and possibly be getting an extra 75mg or just wait till tomorrow. I’m also on Neurontin and in  the box they look so must alike. I have to take so many pills, I can’t hardly keep up with them even with the pillbox. Thanks anyone, Carmen Dear Carmen, Whenever in doubt, don`t take the pill. Just get back on track tomorrow. I have done this with my Paxil and thyroid med  Take care. Jackie

Response:

My p doc just upped my Effexor XR from 150 mg to 225 ( 3 pills , 2 in the morning and 1 of them at 1:00 PM. I’m not sure but I may have not taken the 1 in the afternoon tablet. I just fixed my pill box and got them messed up a bit. Anyhow, my question is, should I take one and possibly be getting an extra 75mg or just wait till tomorrow. I’m also on Neurontin and in  the box they look so must alike. I have to take so many pills, I can’t hardly keep up with them even with the pillbox. Thanks anyone, Carmen

Dear Carmen, Whenever in doubt, don`t take the pill. Just get back on track tomorrow. I have done this with my Paxil and thyroid med  Take care. Jackie

Response:

Thanks Jacke, that’s what I’m gonna do. He just upped it this past week and I think it just might be helping. I’m still having the attacks on and off every day but there seems to be a suttle lessening of the "intensity" of the attacks. Been getting shaky and anxious but the hot flash/rush is not there very much like it was a week ago. I hope I’m right. Anyhow, today was a pretty good day all in all, so I’ll just try to take it a day at a time. BTW, from the beginning of November, I had  been taking 1mg of xanax 3 times a day. That was after I got out of the hospital. When the severe attacks started (about 10 days ago) there were times I took it 4 times just to survive. Today I have only taken 2 doses of 1 mg , the last dose was at 2:45 this afternoon and I feel like I might not need another dose but I’m afraid it will effect me later. Not sure what to do and I can’t get the doc tonight, there is a fill in doc for the weekend I believe. Any advice??? Thanks again, Carmen – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My p doc just upped my Effexor XR from 150 mg to 225 ( 3 pills , 2 in the morning and 1 of them at 1:00 PM. I’m not sure but I may have not taken the 1 in the afternoon tablet. I just fixed my pill box and got them messed up a bit. Anyhow, my question is, should I take one and possibly be getting an extra 75mg or just wait till tomorrow. I’m also on Neurontin and in  the box they look so must alike. I have to take so many pills, I can’t hardly keep up with them even with the pillbox. Thanks anyone, Carmen Dear Carmen, Whenever in doubt, don`t take the pill. Just get back on track tomorrow. I have done this with my Paxil and thyroid med  Take care. Jackie

Response:

My p doc just upped my Effexor XR from 150 mg to 225 ( 3 pills , 2 in the morning and 1 of them at 1:00 PM. I’m not sure but I may have not taken the 1 in the afternoon tablet. I just fixed my pill box and got them messed up a bit. Anyhow, my question is, should I take one and possibly be getting an extra 75mg or just wait till tomorrow. I’m also on Neurontin and in  the box they look so must alike. I have to take so many pills, I can’t hardly keep up with them even with the pillbox. Thanks anyone, Carmen

Response:

Question:

Anne Haas wrote:

. I wish some talk show host would do a program called "MOVE THE HELL ON, THAT WAS 20 YEARS AGO." Anne Anne, you are my hero also.  I wanna be like you when (if) I ever grow up.  :-)

DITTO!  :-) Joanne

Response:

Indyguy1 wrote:

Well, then you haven’t been reading all the threads. I posted a number of time times prior to the Jennifer thread in the past week or so. In fact Anne R asked me a week or so ago where the heck I’d been.

Well, I did. I don’t know where this bit about you being a troll got started, but I personally have gotten quite a bit out of your posts in the past. I did think you were a little harsh to Jennifer there, she’s in a tough situation and dont’ forget she’s very young too. I remember being in love at 22, I’d go back there in a second! But I’ve also learned a lot of very tough things in these 28-33 years, and a LOT of them I didn’t know and wouldn’t have accepted at the beginning of my relationship. Some people arent’ ready to give up the pain. But I never thought of you as a troll… is somebody saying I did? Is that why my name came up? I was glad you were back when you started posting again! Anne

Response:

Anne wrote:

Indyguy1 wrote: Well, then you haven’t been reading all the threads. I posted a number of time times prior to the Jennifer thread in the past week or so. In fact Anne R asked me a week or so ago where the heck I’d been. Well, I did.

Thanks for backing me up.:)  I don’t know where this bit about you being a troll got started,

but I personally have gotten quite a bit out of your posts in the past.

Thank you and I from yours.:) Not to mention a number of belly laughs! You are one funny lady!  I did think

you were a little harsh to Jennifer there,

I agree and I did apologize.  she’s in a tough situation and dont’ forget

she’s very young too. I remember being in love at 22, I’d go back there in a second!

LOL I should be so lucky to be able to remember that far aback.:)  But

I’ve also learned a lot of very tough things in these 28-33 years, and a LOT of them I didn’t know and wouldn’t have accepted at the beginning of my

relationship.

Some people arent’ ready to give up the pain.

How true.

But I never thought of you as a troll… is somebody saying I did?

No. Apparently lil and Geri were discussing that I was most likely a troll. I guess lil also brought it up at Shay’s baby shower.  Is that

why my name came up?

No *I* brought up your name as I knew you would remember I had posted prior to the infamous Jennifer thread. Lil had thought I had not posted in a long while and felt I caused some sort of riff between her and Merrie and then wasn’t around again until this Jennifer thing. Leading her to asssume I was a troll. I was glad you were back when you started posting again! Thanks for saying that Anne. Indy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Anne

Response:

I, for one, have a HUGE problem with this.  When Mike and I were having problems, you could have never, ever, ever convinced me that Tori was better off with a f— up for a dad and a mother who did everything.  I was a single parent in a two parent home.  When he told me that he’d give up his parental rights in order NOT to pay CS, I was so thrilled!  I’d have gone with that deal in a heart beat! I was NOT going to stay in a marriage where I was cussed out daily, told that HIS son was perfect and it was ME that had the problem, one night I had a boot shoved in my face because MY dog chewed it up.  I can remember another night I was sick and asked Mike to let Tori lie with him for a minute.  I’m in the bathroom throwing up, Tori’s crying – and he’s yelling at her for crying! Yeah, this is a marriage I would have stayed in for my child’s sake.  Don’t think so.  My daughter would have been better off without the father, thank you very much. Of course, since Mike has gotten his act together, Tori likes the father he’s become and Mike has realized that everyone making excuses for his son has given him a reason NOT to accept responsibility for his problems (hence, the running away because he got caught with drugs – it’s easier to run than deal with the consequences). Unfortunately, my SS had 13 1/2 years to have everyone feel sorry for him and justify WHY he shouldn’t have to face consequences for his actions. Lying?  Oh, that’s just him – he lies so much, I don’t think he knows how to tell the truth any more.  Stealing?  Oh, no, he’d never do that. Yeah, we’re trying to work on the marriage, but between the son’s attitude, Mike’s parents attitude of we can do no right and SS can do no wrong, and the ex’s attitude of she’s a better parent – there are days I’d rather live in Alaska than continue this marriage. "Indyguy1" <indyg…@aol.com

wrote in message

news:20001019014520.00976.00000407@ng-fo1.aol.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

I think Brian has a copy of one of her studies stating that she feels

that

parents should stay in bad marriages for their childrens’ sakes.  (Unless there is domestic violence, child abuse or drug use.) From my understanding she feels couples should try their best to work out

their

differances for the sake of everyone, including themselves, in families. Do you have a problem with this train of thought, Geri?

Response:

"Wendy A. S. Taylor" <ccx…@coventry.ac.uk

wrote in message

news:8smkc6$fq0$1@leofric.coventry.ac.uk…

Well I have to say that I didn’t read anything offensive, or troll like in her post.

Did you read anything particularly helpful or supportive in it?  I didn’t.

It’s your perogative to killfile her if you want, but why say so on the newsgroup.

Um…because it came up in a conversation with Geri?  Did it offend you in some way I don’t know about?  Is there some new content bylaw on here that I maybe missed?

 Other people can and will make their own minds up about who and what to read.

Of course they can.  Good Lord, where was it I said that everyone should ignore her or kill her?  Geri said that she suspected that she was a troll and I commented that I thought so too.  I changed the subject because I was no longer discussing Oprah. Get a grip, hon.  When exactly did you become the newsgroup police? lil — "It’s hard when you discover what keeps you going keeps you all alone."  – Blue Rodeo

Response:

Anne Robotti <robo…@worldnet.att.net

wrote in message

news:39EEE01B.3E8E08C3@worldnet.att.net… I wish some talk show host would do a program called "MOVE THE

HELL ON, THAT WAS 20 YEARS AGO."

Anne anne anne anne anne – ROFLLL.

Response:

"rebecca" <justrebec…@yahoo.com

wrote in message

news:1pGH5.8713$ji3.197226@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net…

Hmm… lil, I always thought Al was pretty reasonable

Alan *was* pretty reasonable.  But his character wasn’t consistent. For instance, he was only more than happy to trash Enricho Suave for his comments, but before he left he jumped down our throats for the way *we* responded to him. There’s more, but it’s kind of hard to explain.  It was never intended to start a major discussion, I was just making a comment.  :-) lil — "It’s hard when you discover what keeps you going keeps you all alone."  – Blue Rodeo

Response:

Hey Tea, I’m sure I won’t be the only one saying this. Mediation..(and Vicki will correct me if I’m wrong, hopefully) Mediation is a fabulous avenue for parents like you, who are *able* to agree, and can set "looser" terms to the children’s custody schedules. However, if you’ve been lurking long, you’ll have already found that a large part of this group comes from situations that this would be impossible…and unfortunately the courts do have to have the end say. Even then, justice or fairness doesn’t always happen. So..basically you are correct, the system assumes there is a war going on, because if there is no prior agreement reached…that is the ground the courts see them on. ange In article <gKFH5.112147$47.1480…@news.bc.tac.net

,

  "Hilander" <hilan…@block.lightspeed.ca

wrote:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

"Indyguy1" <indyg…@aol.com wrote in message news:20001019014520.00976.00000407@ng-fo1.aol.com… But regarless of Wallerstien’s feelings on who should divorce and

who

shouldn’t, the results of her findings on how divorce and the way

parents

act post-divorce stand on their own. This is a valid point. My ex and I are not yet legally divorced [can't afford it financially

at

this time] but have been living seperate and apart for almost 5 years. We’ve both looked into doing it ourselves but are afraid that we might

get

something wrong on the paper and can’t afford [financially] to be

making

those kinds of mistakes only to have to do it again. What gets both of us is how the ’system’ is set up.  We do get along

fairly

well as people but as parents, we are both on the same page and have

no

problems.  The ’system’ however, not only assumes there must be a

‘war’ but

there is so much there that we believe provokes negative feelings when

there

needn’t be. We have joint custody and guardianship.  We do NOT like the idea of

courts

telling either of us when we can or can’t see kids because we have

always

worked it out verbally with no problems and we can’t imagine how

difficult

it must be on adults as well as kids if there is no flexibility.  Life

is

not static.  It is dynamic! But the papers we looked at default to one parent or the other having

’sole

custody’.  Why?  If we were ‘pushed’ into that route [through lawyers, family and friends] then I can see how it would cause negative

feelings

because your mind is then tuned to look for ‘negatives’ in one parent

over

the other as a parent.  Not healthy. At a time like that, wouldn’t it be better for kids if the system

helped

promote and celebrate the *strengths* of both parents and how those strengths could compliment and work well with each other as parents?! I don’t want a piece of paper telling me that ex can only see kids on weekends.  What if they have a weekday off from school and dad has

tickets

to the hockey game?  What if one of the kids has been invited to a

birthday

party on the weekend and doesn’t want to go away that day? While in some cases, the personality of the individual parents may be

a big

problem for the divorce process and/or seperation, I also see that the system and even societal attitude towards divorce/seperation pushes

people

into seperate corners of the mat when they might not have gone there

in the

first place. I don’t think seperation/divorce is bad for kids, however, the current process and aftermath as it is set up today I do believe has a

detrimental

effect on *everyone* involved unless they actively and consciously

work

around/against the system. Chat later, Tea

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

Response:

On Thu, 19 Oct 2000 01:47:52 -0700, "lilblakdog" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -<lbdcreati…@dog.com

wrote: "Geri and Brian" <gplen…@aol.comicrelief wrote in message news:20001019034446.05269.00000435@ng-cb1.aol.com… Are you a troll? Indy showed up just as Alan Moore and his wife disappeared (and, quite frankly, I had my doubts about *their* sincerity, as *they* showed up just as Enricho Suave disappeared).  She was sticking up for Alan’s wife by asking us not to use the term biomom to differentiate, because we *weren’t* mothers in any way, shape or form. She had a couple of serious sounding posts, one of which started something of a dispute between Merrie and I.  I couldn’t help but notice that *during* this dispute, Indy was nowhere to be seen.  When I was down in Tacoma for Shay’s baby shower, I’d mentioned that I suspected that she was just trolling. Her response to Jennifer/John Durden is the first one of her posts that I’ve read since, and her tactic has changed rather severely from the concerned great-aunt who doesn’t want to offend anybody.  So now I’m basically certain that she *is* a troll and will be blocking her posts.

Oh shut teh hell up. YOur ignorant McCarthyesque accusations are pathetic at best. STop trying to be a netcop. Loev, Poopie Pants

Response:

Geri wrote:

Do you have a problem with this train of thought, Geri? I don’t have a strong opinion about it one way or the other.  Are you a troll?

Nope. But I see you’d like to portray me as one, seeing as I don’t always agree with the way you see and do things.

You are rude to everyone.

Everyone? Hardly. Indy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

lil wrote:

"Geri and Brian" <gplen…@aol.comicrelief wrote in message news:20001019034446.05269.00000435@ng-cb1.aol.com… Are you a troll? Indy showed up just as Alan Moore and his wife disappeared (and, quite frankly, I had my doubts about *their* sincerity, as *they* showed up just as Enricho Suave disappeared).  She was sticking up for Alan’s wife by asking us not to use the term biomom to differentiate, because we *weren’t* mothers in any way, shape or form.

Uh, excuse me. I do not know the people you speak of. I don’t even remember much of the thread. But I do remember I did NOT say step-mothers were not mothers in any way shape or form.

She had a couple of serious sounding posts, one of which started something of a dispute between Merrie and I.

I don’t recall any dispute between you and Merrie. But then again I am not a constant on this ng. And if you and Merrie disagree or any other posters on this or any other ng it is between the two of you or them not anyone else. And anything *I* post about or respond to I consider serious.  I couldn’t help but notice that *during*

this dispute, Indy was nowhere to be seen.

Well hang me out to dry because I don’t check in here as often as others do. Geesh  When I was down in Tacoma for

Shay’s baby shower, I’d mentioned that I suspected that she was just trolling.

I thought trolls came in and stirred up trouble then left. I asked questions. I gave comments. I come back because of our nephew and the mess he is in. There are some here that I really value their opinion. You were one of them. You might want to check the 15 years hence thread and see the compliment I paid you, earlier this week or last week.

Her response to Jennifer/John Durden is the first one of her posts that I’ve read since,

Well, then you haven’t been reading all the threads. I posted a number of time times prior to the Jennifer thread in the past week or so. In fact Anne R asked me a week or so ago where the heck I’d been. and her tactic has changed rather severely from the concerned

great-aunt who doesn’t want to offend anybody.

I’m usually very calm in my responces on this ng. There was something that really bothered me about Jennifer’s stance on her b/f’s children, their mother and her role in the boy’s lives. Maybe it was her arrogance or the desire for her to see the boy’s mother out of their lives after only being their dad’s g/f for about one year, I’m not sure. But in the mean time I did apologize to her. Although from reading the way she responds to many of the good solid ideas she has been given it looks like she may not want any helpful sugestions, afterall.   So now I’m basically certain

that she *is* a troll and will be blocking her posts.

If you choose to block my posts, Lil, that is your perogative. But to think I am a troll is not only false but really less than I expected of you. Indy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

lil

Response:

In a previous article, "Hilander" <hilan…@block.lightspeed.ca

said:

<I don’t want a piece of paper telling me that ex can only see kids on <weekends.  What if they have a weekday off from school and dad has tickets <to the hockey game?  What if one of the kids has been invited to a birthday <party on the weekend and doesn’t want to go away that day? Then so what?  One of the things I stress with my mediation clients is that the agreement is for both of them, and that the separation police aren’t going to be checking to see if parenting time is going to go the way the document says it does.  The doc is there to set basic expectations and to satisfy the court that everyone has knowledge of the important things.  You can put it into practice **any** way that you and your ex want to.  Any way at all.  Total freedom to do that. See a mediator.  It makes divorce *much* cheaper, especially when you and your ex get along as well as you seem to.  Any competent mediator can put all the flexibility you want in your agreement. Vicki — Bring Dejanews back to life!  See the petition at http://www2.petitionsonline.com/dejanews/petition.html and sign it. Help bring back a valuable Usenet resource!

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Do these whining *adult* brats think they would have been any happier in a home where their parents were two miserable people who *should* have been divorced? Been there, done that, NEVER going back. One of the things I always promised myself I’d do for my children is have the strength and courage to get divorced if their Dad and I really couldn’t work things out. I made this promise to myself when I was *nine years old.* If kids need counseling to get them through the divorce, to help them cope, I’m all for it. But this Oprah thing is going to be another attempt to excuse these people’s actions as adults because of their pain as a child. I had pain as a child too, every- body did. I wish some talk show host would do a program called "MOVE THE HELL ON, THAT WAS 20 YEARS AGO." Anne

Anne, you are my hero also.  I wanna be like you when (if) I ever grow up.  :-) Anne H. "To the world you might be one person, but to one person you might be  the world."

Response:

"Indyguy1" <indyg…@aol.com

wrote in message

news:20001019014520.00976.00000407@ng-fo1.aol.com…

But regarless of Wallerstien’s feelings on who should divorce and who shouldn’t, the results of her findings on how divorce and the way parents

act

post-divorce stand on their own.

This is a valid point. My ex and I are not yet legally divorced [can't afford it financially at this time] but have been living seperate and apart for almost 5 years. We’ve both looked into doing it ourselves but are afraid that we might get something wrong on the paper and can’t afford [financially] to be making those kinds of mistakes only to have to do it again. What gets both of us is how the ’system’ is set up.  We do get along fairly well as people but as parents, we are both on the same page and have no problems.  The ’system’ however, not only assumes there must be a ‘war’ but there is so much there that we believe provokes negative feelings when there needn’t be. We have joint custody and guardianship.  We do NOT like the idea of courts telling either of us when we can or can’t see kids because we have always worked it out verbally with no problems and we can’t imagine how difficult it must be on adults as well as kids if there is no flexibility.  Life is not static.  It is dynamic! But the papers we looked at default to one parent or the other having ’sole custody’.  Why?  If we were ‘pushed’ into that route [through lawyers, family and friends] then I can see how it would cause negative feelings because your mind is then tuned to look for ‘negatives’ in one parent over the other as a parent.  Not healthy. At a time like that, wouldn’t it be better for kids if the system helped promote and celebrate the *strengths* of both parents and how those strengths could compliment and work well with each other as parents?! I don’t want a piece of paper telling me that ex can only see kids on weekends.  What if they have a weekday off from school and dad has tickets to the hockey game?  What if one of the kids has been invited to a birthday party on the weekend and doesn’t want to go away that day? While in some cases, the personality of the individual parents may be a big problem for the divorce process and/or seperation, I also see that the system and even societal attitude towards divorce/seperation pushes people into seperate corners of the mat when they might not have gone there in the first place. I don’t think seperation/divorce is bad for kids, however, the current process and aftermath as it is set up today I do believe has a detrimental effect on *everyone* involved unless they actively and consciously work around/against the system. Chat later, Tea

Response:

lilblakdog <lbdcreati…@dog.com

wrote in message

news:tyyH5.1009$sq4.23642@newscontent-01.sprint.ca…

Indy showed up just as Alan Moore and his wife disappeared (and, quite frankly, I had my doubts about *their* sincerity, as *they* showed up just as Enricho Suave disappeared).  She was sticking up for Alan’s wife by asking us not to use the term biomom to differentiate, because we

*weren’t*

mothers in any way, shape or form.

Hmm… lil, I always thought Al was pretty reasonable, and IIRC, everyone _did_ jump straight down his wife’s (Ginny?) throat for whatever comment she made. Go figger.

Response:

Tommorrow morning author Judith Wallerstien will be on Oprah tommorrow. Her latest book, The Unexpected Legacy of Divorce, uncovers many of the feelings children of divorce have towards divorce and the way their lives went after their parents divorced.

I think Brian has a copy of one of her studies stating that she feels that parents should stay in bad marriages for their childrens’ sakes.  (Unless there is domestic violence, child abuse or drug use.)   ~~~~~~~~~~ Geri   ^   ^      

 ’  ’ <

"There is no snooze button on a cat who wants breakfast."- Anonymous ~~~~~~~~~~

Response:

Geri wrote:

Tommorrow morning author Judith Wallerstien will be on Oprah tommorrow. Her latest book, The Unexpected Legacy of Divorce, uncovers many of the feelings children of divorce have towards divorce and the way their lives went after their parents divorced. I think Brian has a copy of one of her studies stating that she feels that parents should stay in bad marriages for their childrens’ sakes.  (Unless there is domestic violence, child abuse or drug use.)  

From my understanding she feels couples should try their best to work out their differances for the sake of everyone, including themselves, in families. Do you have a problem with this train of thought, Geri? But regarless of Wallerstien’s feelings on who should divorce and who shouldn’t, the results of her findings on how divorce and the way parents act post-divorce stand on their own. Gee, I wonder if the poor results of children of divorce that she followed for 25 years could be part of the reason she would prefer to see families stick together? Indy

Response:

Do you have a problem with this train of thought, Geri?

I don’t have a strong opinion about it one way or the other.  Are you a troll? You are rude to everyone. ~~~~~~~~~~ Geri   ^   ^      

 ’  ’ <

"There is no snooze button on a cat who wants breakfast."- Anonymous ~~~~~~~~~~

Response:

"Geri and Brian" <gplen…@aol.comicrelief

wrote in message

news:20001019034446.05269.00000435@ng-cb1.aol.com…

Are you a troll?

Indy showed up just as Alan Moore and his wife disappeared (and, quite frankly, I had my doubts about *their* sincerity, as *they* showed up just as Enricho Suave disappeared).  She was sticking up for Alan’s wife by asking us not to use the term biomom to differentiate, because we *weren’t* mothers in any way, shape or form. She had a couple of serious sounding posts, one of which started something of a dispute between Merrie and I.  I couldn’t help but notice that *during* this dispute, Indy was nowhere to be seen.  When I was down in Tacoma for Shay’s baby shower, I’d mentioned that I suspected that she was just trolling. Her response to Jennifer/John Durden is the first one of her posts that I’ve read since, and her tactic has changed rather severely from the concerned great-aunt who doesn’t want to offend anybody.  So now I’m basically certain that she *is* a troll and will be blocking her posts. lil — "It’s hard when you discover what keeps you going keeps you all alone."  – Blue Rodeo

Response:

In article <tyyH5.1009$sq4.23…@newscontent-01.sprint.ca

,

lilblakdog <lbdcreati…@dog.com

wrote: Her response to Jennifer/John Durden is the first one of her posts that I’ve read since, and her tactic has changed rather severely from the concerned great-aunt who doesn’t want to offend anybody.  So now I’m basically certain that she *is* a troll and will be blocking her posts.

Well I have to say that I didn’t read anything offensive, or troll like in her post.   It’s your perogative to killfile her if you want, but why say so on the newsgroup.  Other people can and will make their own minds up about who and what to read. Wendy

Response:

In article <20001018220913.15571.00000…@ng-cv1.aol.com

, posted 19 Oct

2000 02:09:13 GMT, Geri and Brian says…

Tommorrow morning author Judith Wallerstien will be on Oprah tommorrow. Her latest book, The Unexpected Legacy of Divorce, uncovers many of the feelings children of divorce have towards divorce and the way their lives went after their parents divorced. I think Brian has a copy of one of her studies stating that she feels that parents should stay in bad marriages for their childrens’ sakes.  (Unless there is domestic violence, child abuse or drug use.)  

You know, my mother stayed in her marriage for her children’s sake, for my sake. I unconsciously learned that I was responsible for my mother’s unhappy life. I heard about her sacrifice almost every day. It took me six years after leaving to realise that I was in a land of psychological torture, and I’m still dealing with the crap ten years later. If Wallerstein has a study stating that people should stay in unhappy marriages for the children’s sake, she’s shot herself in the foot. K**** — Quotes of a five year old girl: "I felt some wriggly things on my head but they were only my own two fingers playing with themselves. I thought it might be a worm."

Response:

In article <39EEDB73.246C…@ntcorp.com

, Karla  <ka…@ntcorp.com wrote: Gee, I wonder if the poor results of children of divorce that she followed for 25 years could be part of the reason she would prefer to see families stick together? I know that one of the flaws in the scientific method is that people tend to skew results to support their hypothesis…especially in the social sciences.  It’s too bad because the scientific method is supposed

The social sciences are very difficult to be scientific in because it is almost impossible to control extraneous factors.

to allow you the chance to examine data to see if your hypothesis is right or wrong, but because of the way grant money and other financial resources tied to "results," people now actively skew the data to support their hypothesis or risk becoming labeled as a non-producer and loosing financial support.

This is true even in the sciences.

Mark Twain said there are three types of lies: Lies, damned lies and statistics.  There’s a reason for that.  I’ve worked in marketing, I know that you tell the "professionals" what you want to prove and they find the data to support your findings.  

One of my favourite authors.

The main criticism I have read on this book (I’m on the waiting list for the book, so I haven’t read it yet) is that her conclusions are flawed due to unequal comparisions.  In other words, she’s not comparing apples and apples, she’s comparing apples and oranges and declaring that the apples rule.

I haven’t read the book, nor seen the programme, but I have done quite a lot of reading on the subject of academic performance and divorce This is quite an interesting URL:  www.prospect.org/archives/18/18mcla.html I know it is harder to supervise two children doing homework, on my own, and still make sure supper, dishes, etc. all get done.  I know that I can’t control what is being done at my ex’s, though this isn’t to say that he doesn’t care or try in his own fashion. After the counselling you went through, Karla, did they give any counselling/advice for you and your ex for co-parenting thereafter? Wendy

Response:

I have been reading the threads started by Judith. I understand her pain and dissapointment because of her adult children’s actions. Perhaps by understanding more about the long lasting effects of divorce on children and how children may not be as reslient as some adults who have divorced wish to believe they are many step-parents, along with birth-parents, can understand more fully why adult children do and say the things they do and say. Not that I am saying Judith’s kids were correct in their treatment of her, as I don’t feel they were. Tommorrow morning author Judith Wallerstien will be on Oprah tommorrow. Her latest book, The Unexpected Legacy of Divorce, uncovers many of the feelings children of divorce have towards divorce and the way their lives went after their parents divorced. The people she speaks with and about in her books are now adults. She followed them from the time of divorce in their childhood into adulthood. I don’t know if steps will be addressed in her interview, but even if they aren’t, I’m sure this show will give all parents who raise or help raise children that have been touched by divorce a better idea of what divorce does to children and how the parent’s actions impact the children’s lives into adulthood. This might be worth taping if you won’t be home when Oprah is on. Heck, it might be good enough that your spouse and you should view it together! If it’s *really* good it might be worth sending a copy to your ex or your spouses ex.:) Indy (who already read the book and can’t wait for the interview!)

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Sorry Indy, but OH GAG! I know I’m going to sound just evil when I say this, but I’m sick of bending over backwards to understand the effects of divorce on the poor little angels. Sometimes people get divorced, sometimes people die, and I just think it’s a symptom of everything that’s wrong with our society that we coddle kids through this and excuse their most selfish actions by trying to "understand their point of view." Do these whining *adult* brats think they would have been any happier in a home where their parents were two miserable people who *should* have been divorced? Been there, done that, NEVER going back. One of the things I always promised myself I’d do for my children is have the strength and courage to get divorced if their Dad and I really couldn’t work things out. I made this promise to myself when I was *nine years old.* If kids need counseling to get them through the divorce, to help them cope, I’m all for it. But this Oprah thing is going to be another attempt to excuse these people’s actions as adults because of their pain as a child. I had pain as a child too, every- body did. I wish some talk show host would do a program called "MOVE THE HELL ON, THAT WAS 20 YEARS AGO." Anne – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Indyguy1 wrote:

I have been reading the threads started by Judith. I understand her pain and dissapointment because of her adult children’s actions. Perhaps by understanding more about the long lasting effects of divorce on children and how children may not be as reslient as some adults who have divorced wish to believe they are many step-parents, along with birth-parents, can understand more fully why adult children do and say the things they do and say. Not that I am saying Judith’s kids were correct in their treatment of her, as I don’t feel they were. Tommorrow morning author Judith Wallerstien will be on Oprah tommorrow. Her latest book, The Unexpected Legacy of Divorce, uncovers many of the feelings children of divorce have towards divorce and the way their lives went after their parents divorced. The people she speaks with and about in her books are now adults. She followed them from the time of divorce in their childhood into adulthood. I don’t know if steps will be addressed in her interview, but even if they aren’t, I’m sure this show will give all parents who raise or help raise children that have been touched by divorce a better idea of what divorce does to children and how the parent’s actions impact the children’s lives into adulthood. This might be worth taping if you won’t be home when Oprah is on. Heck, it might be good enough that your spouse and you should view it together! If it’s *really* good it might be worth sending a copy to your ex or your spouses ex.:) Indy (who already read the book and can’t wait for the interview!)

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I think the data is useless without the proper comparison – which wouldn’t be happy families that stayed together, but rather families that stayed together and should have been divorced. I think her findings are faulty.  How can she determine if the poor results of children are due the divorce rather than the bad relationship between the parents?  Where are the results of children raised by acrimonious parents that didn’t divorce?  How can we quantify the level of acrimony so that we can isolate that from divorce and be able to distinguish if it’s divorce that’s causative or the acrimony? Merrie Indyguy1 <indyg…@aol.com

wrote in message

news:20001019014520.00976.00000407@ng-fo1.aol.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

But regarless of Wallerstien’s feelings on who should divorce and who shouldn’t, the results of her findings on how divorce and the way parents

act

post-divorce stand on their own. Gee, I wonder if the poor results of children of divorce that she followed

for

25 years could be part of the reason she would prefer to see families

stick

together? Indy

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Question:

Ditto to everything Chip and Randee posted.  There is absolutely no evidence to support that any SSRI causes permanent brain damage….in rats or in humans….and they sliced up a lot of rodents to find this out.  SPECT and MRI scans indicate the same for humans….and I’m sure that over the next decade, posthumous studies will produce the same results.  What you should know is that the average age of onset for most Axis I diagnoses is 18-25. More than likely your continued problems are as Philip described synchronous rather than caused by the meds.  We have all been angry about the seeming failure of our body chemistry as expressed by psych symptoms.  However, blaming it on the meds, is a cop-out of taking responsibility for making yourself well…..and posting such accusations here causes a lot of unnecessary worry by people who need their energies to focus on REAL problems.  Get some counseling.   ~Valerie

Response:

I take zoloft and I was crazy before I took it. Panic and the constant thought pattern ruined my life. Zoloft has really helped me. Yes, I had some side effects but nothing like I had on other meds. I will not say neg on xanex but I am sure long term use may also cause you to go crazy. I also have psoriasis and this is not caused by zoloft. Got that before the zoloft or panic. Read up on psoriasis.Psoriasis may aggrivate the zoloft. Some meds do. Good luck on your research but remember many of us need this medication and unless you are 100% sure of what you have found I would be careful before you scare to many people. Joan

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –     ***I’m trying to get to the bottom of this *** I am posting this because of this problem and research I am doing on Zoloft… I have also found another person that has te same exact problems that I have because of this anti-depressant.. First of all , I think it causes permanent brain damage.. I also think that a person who starts out on zoloft will need some sort of anti-depressant for the rest of their life because of the damage it does.. Well, I’ll just try to be short here because I dont know how many of you will have the same problem..   When I was 18, I took zoloft.. I felt very weird in the beggining. Like a draining , kind of brain meltdown feeling… And ever since then (6 years without zoloft) I have had a constant numbing feeling on the left side of my head… It makes me feel more prone to stress/anxiety/panic.. Since then I have also developed a social phobia , psoriasis , and psoriatic arthritis….  Even though I was a little depressed when I was 18, I never knew that this crazyness was going to happen.. It made my condition much worse.. Now i’m stuck with taking xanax for the rest of my life….Anybody else expierence simaler symptoms?? We should sue these damn companies for this garbage.

I’d say it’s doubtful that your complaints are the result of having taken Zoloft. There seems to be a *synchronicity* here but not necessarily a *causal* relationship. It might be the original anxiety for all I know (or can conclude from the sparse data you provided). Does Xanax work for these symptoms as you say that you’re taking it? If it works (at what dose?) it’s obviously a better med for you than Zoloft was. Some of us (including me) will have to be on meds for the rest of our lives. I’d rather not be on meds but it’s the only way for me to have a life. You may be just like me… Philip

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    ***I’m trying to get to the bottom of this *** I am posting this because of this problem and research I am doing on Zoloft… I have also found another person that has te same exact problems that I have because of this anti-depressant.. First of all , I think it causes permanent brain damage.. I also think that a person who starts out on zoloft will need some sort of anti-depressant for the rest of their life because of the damage it does..

 Well, I’ll just try to be short here because I dont know how many of you will have the same problem..   When I was 18, I took zoloft.. I felt very weird in the beggining. Like a draining , kind of brain meltdown feeling… And ever since then (6 years without zoloft) I have had a constant numbing feeling on the left side of my head… It makes me feel more prone to stress/anxiety/panic.. Since then I have also developed a social phobia , psoriasis , and psoriatic arthritis….  Even though I was a little depressed when I was 18, I never knew that this crazyness was going to happen.. It made my condition much worse.. Now i’m stuck with taking xanax for the rest of my life….Anybody else expierence simaler symptoms?? We should sue these damn companies for this garbage.

Mike you can spend the rest of your life trying to figure out why you have this disorder. I seriously doubt that Zoloft is the cause. You were put on Zoloft for a reason, what was that reason? Depression and anxiety are closely related. My disorder started when I was 18, one day I was fine and the next day I was different. Mike you can try to find the reason for your disorder, and try to place blame. You are going to make yourself nuts trying to find the cause. Even if you do find the cause, it won`t help you much. Unless you accept your disorder and own it, you are not going to move on and get better. There are many people that have never been on anti-depressants, that have depression, anxiety, panic, social phobia and psoriasis. How do you explain that Mike? Take all this energy that you are using to blame Zoloft into getting better instead. Jackie

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Would it be safe to say…that Zoloft is a powerful drug?For me the answer is YES. Did Zoloft increase my Anxiety?…yes for me it did! The first month or so were the weirdest (kind of a slight mania….depersonalization ) it pretty much went away.(.except for Anxiety) the longer I stayed on it! I can see how it can help people, I think it helped me with a uplifting state of mind; but it didn’t seem to be worth the price of continuing if I still had to deal Tension and Anxiety. I have discontinued Zoloft for about 2 weeks and I can’t tell much difference; except I can tell I’m not quite as know) I wanted them all to work wonders for me…but they created there own little draw-backs. I’ve given Zoloft 2 trys. I can see why somebody posted about the effects of this drug…I’ve read many places and from ASAP posters on the things I went through…I know that I’m not alone. BUT I know this drug has worked wonders for many other people. Anyway just sharing…not an expert(Obviously) Oh by the way if anybody can offer me a better alternative drug….I’m all EARS! Thanks Much       Wild & Crazy                                                            P.S. my other 2 drugs are Trazodone and Zanax( I really like the Zanax!) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –     ***I’m trying to get to the bottom of this *** I am posting this because of this problem and research I am doing on Zoloft… I have also found another person that has te same exact problems that I have because of this anti-depressant.. First of all , I think it causes permanent brain damage.. I also think that a person who starts out on zoloft will need some sort of anti-depressant for the rest of their life because of the damage it does.. Well, I’ll just try to be short here because I dont know how many of you will have the same problem..   When I was 18, I took zoloft.. I felt very weird in the beggining. Like a draining , kind of brain meltdown feeling… And ever since then (6 years without zoloft) I have had a constant numbing feeling on the left side of my head… It makes me feel more prone to stress/anxiety/panic.. Since then I have also developed a social phobia , psoriasis , and psoriatic arthritis….  Even though I was a little depressed when I was 18, I never knew that this crazyness was going to happen.. It made my condition much worse.. Now i’m stuck with taking xanax for the rest of my life….Anybody else expierence simaler symptoms?? We should sue these damn companies for this garbage. My wife has been on Imiprimine, Luvox, and Zoloft.  The imiprimine helped her depression but the side effects were almost bad enough that the depression was better.  The Luvox had very mild side effects, but it didn’t do much for her depression.  Zoloft has been effective with her depression and with very mild side effects.  I see no evidence of brain dammage. I was on prozac (an SSRI, the same family as Zoloft) for 2 weeks.  It gave me tinnitus and halucinations.  I won’t take an SSRI again.  These are very rare side effects for Prozac, but I’m not the first to get them.  However, just because SSRIs are a bad choice for me, doesn’t mean that huge numbers of users haven’t been helped by them.  Xanax is what helps me, and I may have to take it the rest of my life, but there’s enough research to suggest that there’s a good chance that I won’t. If Zoloft really does cause brain dammage, I think it would of turned up prior to now.  I agree with the prior posts that say you have an anxiety/panc disorder that just happend to manifest itself after you went off the Zoloft. I would also say that you at least have a chance that it’s not permenant. Good Luck,  Mark Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –     ***I’m trying to get to the bottom of this *** I am posting this because of this problem and research I am doing on Zoloft… I have also found another person that has te same exact problems that I have because of this anti-depressant.. First of all , I think it causes permanent brain damage.. I also think that a person who starts out on zoloft will need some sort of anti-depressant for the rest of their life because of the damage it does.. Well, I’ll just try to be short here because I dont know how many of you will have the same problem..   When I was 18, I took zoloft.. I felt very weird in the beggining. Like a draining , kind of brain meltdown feeling… And ever since then (6 years without zoloft) I have had a constant numbing feeling on the left side of my head… It makes me feel more prone to stress/anxiety/panic.. Since then I have also developed a social phobia , psoriasis , and psoriatic arthritis….  Even though I was a little depressed when I was 18, I never knew that this crazyness was going to happen.. It made my condition much worse.. Now i’m stuck with taking xanax for the rest of my life….Anybody else expierence simaler symptoms?? We should sue these damn companies for this garbage.

My wife has been on Imiprimine, Luvox, and Zoloft.  The imiprimine helped her depression but the side effects were almost bad enough that the depression was better.  The Luvox had very mild side effects, but it didn’t do much for her depression.  Zoloft has been effective with her depression and with very mild side effects.  I see no evidence of brain dammage. I was on prozac (an SSRI, the same family as Zoloft) for 2 weeks.  It gave me tinnitus and halucinations.  I won’t take an SSRI again.  These are very rare side effects for Prozac, but I’m not the first to get them.  However, just because SSRIs are a bad choice for me, doesn’t mean that huge numbers of users haven’t been helped by them.  Xanax is what helps me, and I may have to take it the rest of my life, but there’s enough research to suggest that there’s a good chance that I won’t. If Zoloft really does cause brain dammage, I think it would of turned up prior to now.  I agree with the prior posts that say you have an anxiety/panc disorder that just happend to manifest itself after you went off the Zoloft. I would also say that you at least have a chance that it’s not permenant. Good Luck,   Mark Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I am posting this because of this problem and research I am doing on Zoloft… I have also found another person that has te same exact problems that I have because of this anti-depressant.. First of all , I think it causes permanent brain damage.. I also think that a person who starts out on zoloft will need some sort of anti-depressant for the rest of their life because of the damage it does.. Well, I’ll just try to be short here because I dont know how many of you will have the same problem..  When I was 18, I took zoloft.. I felt very weird in the beggining. Like a draining , kind of brain meltdown feeling… And ever since then (6 years without zoloft) I have had a constant numbing feeling on the left side of my head… It makes me feel more prone to stress/anxiety/panic.. Since then I have also developed a social phobia , psoriasis , and psoriatic arthritis….  Even though I was a little depressed when I was 18, I never knew that this crazyness was going to happen.. It made my condition much worse.. Now i’m stuck with taking xanax for the rest of my life….Anybody else expierence simaler symptoms?? We should sue these damn companies for this garbage.

You may be confusing cause and effect here. There are many people on this NG who take or have taken Zoloft as well as many other AD’s. The symptoms that you describe could mean that you are still have problems with depression. I’m not saying outright that you are wrong, however, there is no current evidence to support your claim, either from the med reaearch or, more importantly, anecodotes posted to the NG’s. Is it possible than somehow in your mind that it might be easier to believe your symptoms were induced by your use of Zoloft than to acknowledge that you have an ongoing problem with Panic and/or depression? Keep us up to date if you find any research on the topic. Regards, JaneB

Response:

   These kind of messages really make me mad.Keep your opinions to yourself. Its not enough that I have to take this but then there are people like you who have to make it worse for me.Zoloft is really helping me and I definatly have no brain damage and i’m not depressed.So when you have real proof then post it!!!! Randee

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –     ***I’m trying to get to the bottom of this *** I am posting this because of this problem and research I am doing on Zoloft… I have also found another person that has te same exact problems that I have because of this anti-depressant.. First of all , I think it causes permanent brain damage.. I also think that a person who starts out on zoloft will need some sort of anti-depressant for the rest of their life because of the damage it does.. Well, I’ll just try to be short here because I dont know how many of you will have the same problem..   When I was 18, I took zoloft.. I felt very weird in the beggining. Like a draining , kind of brain meltdown feeling… And ever since then (6 years without zoloft) I have had a constant numbing feeling on the left side of my head… It makes me feel more prone to stress/anxiety/panic.. Since then I have also developed a social phobia , psoriasis , and psoriatic arthritis….  Even though I was a little depressed when I was 18, I never knew that this crazyness was going to happen.. It made my condition much worse.. Now i’m stuck with taking xanax for the rest of my life….Anybody else expierence simaler symptoms?? We should sue these damn companies for this garbage.

  I don’t know about this either…I have had fewer side-effects on Zoloft than I’ve had on any other med but aspirin and ibuprofen (no kidding)…Antibiotics give me flu-like symptoms, antihistimines knock me on my ass and cause dizziness…The list goes on…I have had almost NIL side-effects on Zoloft…Not only that, but like others have said, I was drained and sick WELL before I took Zoloft…If I still am when I get off, I can only assume I still need it, not that it caused it…   Finally, all the research I have read recently is starting to suggest just the opposite of what you say…That depression and anxiety (specifically cortisol and other hormones that are overstimulated in depressed and anxious folks) CAUSES brain damage…Long time depressives have smaller brains in some places  (I cannot remember the specific region at 12:20 PM! ) that control emotions…This seems to be reversible, but that is inconclusive…Also, research shows that taking medications and getting therapy immediately is the best way to prevent this effect and reduce or eliminate further epsiodes… Best, — Charles Phipps

Response:

I’d be interested in whatever you find out about zoloft. I have been on it since March 99. Only 50mg. Haven’t seen a lot of improvement, but I thought it was to treat depression. I went to the Pdoc complaining of anxiety,panic and lack of sleep. Although, he did give me xanax as well for that. You may be right in your claim about zoloft, but I have not heard this before about the medicine.

Response:

Hi, New Jersey! Haven’t  I seen you before down on the boardwalk in Atlantic City , and over there at the Trump Plaza? You look familiar.  : ) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -New Jersey writes: I’m trying to get to the bottom of this. I am posting this because of this problem and research I am doing on Zoloft… I have also found another person that has te same exact problems that I have because of this anti-depressant.. First of all , I think it causes permanent brain damage.. I also think that a person who starts out on zoloft will need some sort of anti-depressant for the rest of their life because of the damage it does.. Well, I’ll just try to be short here because I dont know how many of you will have the same problem.. When I was 18, I took zoloft.. I felt very weird in the beggining. Like a draining , kind of brain meltdown feeling… And ever since then (6 years without zoloft) I have had a constant numbing feeling on the left side of my head… It makes me feel more prone to stress/anxiety/panic.. Since then I have also developed a social phobia , psoriasis , and psoriatic arthritis…. Even though I was a little depressed when I was 18, I never knew that this crazyness was going to happen.. It made my condition much worse.. Now i’m stuck with taking xanax for the rest of my life….Anybody else expierence simaler symptoms?? We should sue these damn companies for this garbage.

NJ, I’ve been on Zoloft for the last 6 years, and so far, no brain damage, just less depression and anxiety. And I’ve been very pleased with this med. And I have never even heard that it causes brain damage. And untill someone shows me proof, I won’t believe it. Just because you met someone that claims his problems are due to brain damage caused by Zoloft doesn’t mean it’s true. It sounds like you were depressed enough at 18 to be treated with Zoloft. I don’t know how long you took it. It seems you now have anxieties, phobias, numbness on your face.  All of these are part of an anxiety disorder. Some, like you,  get depressed first, and later on get the anxiety symptoms. Others have the anxiety symptoms first and may get depressed later on. I had depression in my late teens, and onset of panic disorder  and phobias at age 22. And I had alot of strange feelings all over my body and thought I had disease. But I didn’t. It sounds like you have the same problems we  have here at ASAP. And they’re not due to brain damage from meds. So, are you ever going to go back down to Atlantic City, again?  : ) Take care, Chip

Response:

    ***I’m trying to get to the bottom of this *** I am posting this because of this problem and research I am doing on Zoloft… I have also found another person that has te same exact problems that I have because of this anti-depressant.. First of all , I think it causes permanent brain damage.. I also think that a person who starts out on zoloft will need some sort of anti-depressant for the rest of their life because of the damage it does.. Well, I’ll just try to be short here because I dont know how many of you will have the same problem..   When I was 18, I took zoloft.. I felt very weird in the beggining. Like a draining , kind of brain meltdown feeling… And ever since then (6 years without zoloft) I have had a constant numbing feeling on the left side of my head… It makes me feel more prone to stress/anxiety/panic.. Since then I have also developed a social phobia , psoriasis , and psoriatic arthritis….  Even though I was a little depressed when I was 18, I never knew that this crazyness was going to happen.. It made my condition much worse.. Now i’m stuck with taking xanax for the rest of my life….Anybody else expierence simaler symptoms?? We should sue these damn companies for this garbage.

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Question:

Hi all, My fiance has been put on Zoloft for anxiety.  He’s taking 25 mg daily, which is half of the proscribed dosage, but he feels it’s working well enough to stick with that dosage.  His neuro put him on nortriptyline last week for migraines and said "it tends to work well in conjunction with zoloft."  Problem is the drowsiness it’s causing is leaving him a zombie, and he feels the migraines are better than the drowsiness.  Furthermore, he looked in his drug reference book and, according to that, zoloft and nortriptyline do EXACTLY the same thing in terms of serotonin reuptake. So my questions are: Why would a neuro prescribe nortriptyline and zoloft at the same time?  Do they really do the same thing/is there any benefit to taking them both at the same time?  Is anyone out there taking zoloft and nortriptyline together?  And–probably most important–how long can he expect the drowsiness to last?  He’s already decided to quit the nortriptyline altogether and double the zoloft dose, but we’re both sort of wondering if that’s the right thing to do. — someone

Response:

Okay, let me clarify.  First, he only took nortriptyline for about 4 days, as it was *just* prescribed by his neuro.  So the fact that he quit "cold turkey" isn’t really significant IMO.  The neuro did indeed tell him it would take about 6 weeks for any "noticeable effects," and that the drowsiness would last maybe 2-4 weeks; but he decided that he could not deal with it for that long.  (BTW he was taking it at bedtime and then sleeping for 10+ hours, but was still like a zombie the next day.)  As for the zoloft, that was prescribed by his psychiatrist for anxiety.  He started that in the usual fashion with an extremely small dose and worked up to .25 mg, which is half of the proscribed "full dose."  His shrink had intended for him to advance to the full dose, but he stopped at .25 mg because he felt it was doing a very good job with the anxiety at that level, so taking more was not necessary (he discussed this with his shrink just last week, and even he felt that was pretty sound logic).  Then when he read that zoloft and nortriptyline do the same thing, he decided to drop the nortryptiline and up the zoloft to the originally intended dose. Incidentally, *now* he’s not sure he’s even *having* migraines anymore; he says now that he thinks about it, he can’t remember the last time he had a *real* migraine.  He has some of the symptoms all the time, like flashing lights, etc., but as far as *pain* goes, he’s beginning to think that those are either tension headaches or Excedrin rebound headaches–since they don’t occur just on one side like his usual migraines.  Seems like the *possible* (we hope) disappearance of full-blown migraines correlates pretty well with when he started taking zoloft.  We’ve got our fingers crossed. And here’s an interesting side note: Last October he underwent a sleep study to test for possible sleep apnea.  He has serious problems getting up in the morning, and is physically tired all day regardless of how much sleep he gets.  The study did not turn up any signs of sleep apnea, but did show an early-onset of REM which, according to the neuro, is common in people who suffer from depression (which causes which, nobody knows).  BUT he does not suffer from depression at all, at least no outward signs.  Is it possible to have "clinical depression" without *ever* feeling depressed?  Anyway the neuro said nortryptiline is especially good at treating depression, and "works well in conjunction with zoloft."  Too bad he couldn’t handle the drowsiness. BTW, he is still taking zoloft at bedtime, with xanax to counteract the jitters.  I guess the nortryptiline did *too good* of a job counteracting them. Whew!  So then, you seem to have a certain amount of medical background. What do you think of all this? — Ninerfan (a.k.a. Someone–now posting from her own computer instead of her boyfriend’s)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Zoloft (a selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor, a/k/a SSRI)often causes "jitters," and difficulty in getting to sleep or staying asleep. The sedating tricyclic/heterocyclic(TCAs or HCAs) antidepressants (ADs) cause drowsiness or deep sleep without addiction. (Some drugs in that class aren’t sedating.) Both are useful for migraine prophylaxis (px); ergo, each prescribed together, with extra potential to prevent migraines, increase your actual physical pain tolerance, increase the effectiveness of analgesics and each (with luck) canceling out some of the side effects of each other. This is awfully clever prescribing, actually, and I wish my docs had thought of it! Pamelor (nortriptyline) is a second-generation tricyclic, a direct derivative of Elavil or Tofranil (I forget which)–sort of a pre-digested Elavil/Tofranil. First-generation drugs go through a bunch o’ changes as they’re metabolized. The thinking was that for depression, if you could give patients something which was farther along in the process of conversion to a substance useful to the body, the AD would work faster. This might mean patients wouldn’t have to wait 4-6 weeks to see if the AD would work. Unfortunately, second- and third-generation ADs were no faster at lifting depressions. However, they had fewer serious side effects for many people while still maintaining the effectiveness of the older drugs for many people. Pamelor is generally prescribed before bedtime and Zoloft in the morning. Anxiety disorders generally don’t respond well to the TCAs or HCAs, but many of the SSRIs and the neither/or ADs (Desyrel/trazodone, for instance) are very useful in obsess.-comp. dis., gen’l anx. dis., etc. ABSOLUTELY do not d/c nortriptyline abruptly!!! This is very important. And NEVER double the dosage of a psych medicine on your own. Some cause heart arrythmias, some cause whacko neurological problems, wierd thoughts/behavior, etc. Call the doctor and state the complaint. Hi all, My fiance has been put on Zoloft for anxiety.  He’s taking 25 mg daily, which is half of the proscribed dosage, but he feels it’s working well enough to stick with that dosage.  His neuro put him on nortriptyline last week for migraines and said "it tends to work well in conjunction with zoloft."  Problem is the drowsiness it’s causing is leaving him a zombie, and he feels the migraines are better than the drowsiness.  Furthermore, he looked in his drug reference book and, according to that, zoloft and nortriptyline do EXACTLY the same thing in terms of serotonin reuptake. So my questions are: Why would a neuro prescribe nortriptyline and zoloft at the same time?  Do they really do the same thing/is there any benefit to taking them both at the same time?  Is anyone out there taking zoloft and nortriptyline together?  And–probably most important–how long can he expect the drowsiness to last?  He’s already decided to quit the nortriptyline altogether and double the zoloft dose, but we’re both sort of wondering if that’s the right thing to do. — someone

Response:

Question: *Why* is it a "good idea" to wean yourself off of a medication which is preventing migraines?

My opinion…. A medication takes upwards to 6 weeks at times to fully get into ones system….. stopping a medication quickly can shock ones system and might cause further medical complications… the medications dont know that we are taking them for migraines…… I take a blood pressure medication called Inderal… if I were to stop taking this completely cold turkey, it might shock my pressure and system and cause all sorts of difficulities…… make sense? Kristen Leigh

Response:

Hi Debby, He only took nortriptyline for about 4 days, so we’re not really worried about side effects.  I’m concerned that maybe he didn’t give it long enough, but he’s a big boy, so I can’t really make him take it if he doesn’t want to. Question: *Why* is it a "good idea" to wean yourself off of a medication which is preventing migraines? — Ninerfan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – and I agree would be a good idea.  Please be very careful—if you are considering changing medication don’t do it suddenly or without consulting your doctor–there can be VERY nasty side effects from sudden withdrawal. Debby

Response:

Zoloft (a selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor, a/k/a SSRI)often causes "jitters," and difficulty in getting to sleep or staying asleep. The sedating tricyclic/heterocyclic(TCAs or HCAs) antidepressants (ADs) cause drowsiness or deep sleep without addiction. (Some drugs in that class aren’t sedating.) Both are useful for migraine prophylaxis (px); ergo, each prescribed together, with extra potential to prevent migraines, increase your actual physical pain tolerance, increase the effectiveness of analgesics and each (with luck) canceling out some of the side effects of each other. This is awfully clever prescribing, actually, and I wish my docs had thought of it! Pamelor (nortriptyline) is a second-generation tricyclic, a direct derivative of Elavil or Tofranil (I forget which)–sort of a pre-digested Elavil/Tofranil. First-generation drugs go through a bunch o’ changes as they’re metabolized. The thinking was that for depression, if you could give patients something which was farther along in the process of conversion to a substance useful to the body, the AD would work faster. This might mean patients wouldn’t have to wait 4-6 weeks to see if the AD would work. Unfortunately, second- and third-generation ADs were no faster at lifting depressions. However, they had fewer serious side effects for many people while still maintaining the effectiveness of the older drugs for many people. Pamelor is generally prescribed before bedtime and Zoloft in the morning. Anxiety disorders generally don’t respond well to the TCAs or HCAs, but many of the SSRIs and the neither/or ADs (Desyrel/trazodone, for instance) are very useful in obsess.-comp. dis., gen’l anx. dis., etc. ABSOLUTELY do not d/c nortriptyline abruptly!!! This is very important. And NEVER double the dosage of a psych medicine on your own. Some cause heart arrythmias, some cause whacko neurological problems, wierd thoughts/behavior, etc. Call the doctor and state the complaint. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi all, My fiance has been put on Zoloft for anxiety.  He’s taking 25 mg daily, which is half of the proscribed dosage, but he feels it’s working well enough to stick with that dosage.  His neuro put him on nortriptyline last week for migraines and said "it tends to work well in conjunction with zoloft."  Problem is the drowsiness it’s causing is leaving him a zombie, and he feels the migraines are better than the drowsiness.  Furthermore, he looked in his drug reference book and, according to that, zoloft and nortriptyline do EXACTLY the same thing in terms of serotonin reuptake. So my questions are: Why would a neuro prescribe nortriptyline and zoloft at the same time?  Do they really do the same thing/is there any benefit to taking them both at the same time?  Is anyone out there taking zoloft and nortriptyline together?  And–probably most important–how long can he expect the drowsiness to last?  He’s already decided to quit the nortriptyline altogether and double the zoloft dose, but we’re both sort of wondering if that’s the right thing to do. — someone

Response:

I am taking Elavil and Prozac together, and I had the same questions as to why take two antidepressants together.  I’m not sure what the reasoning is behind it, but it’s quite common for migraines.  I take the Elavil at night and it helps me sleep.  The first week or so I was a zombie, but it got better after about 10 days.  Tell him to hang in there, it gets better.

Response:

snip<  i THINK that nortriptyline is amytriptyline (sp?) (elavil)? & is classified as a tricyclic, wheras zoloft is an SSRI (selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor).  

Nortriptyline is the generic name for Pamelar and amytriptyline is the generic name for Elavil.  They are similar but not the same.   I’m not sure if they are classified as tricyclics…I never did understand what tricyclics were anyway. if that’s the case, perhaps they work a little differently, albeit both on the serotonin. in any event, my experience with the drowsiness is that it passes after awhile.  it was the dry mouth (from elavil; i haven’t been on zoloft) that bummed me out.

I’ve been on nortriptyline for 5 years.  My dosage has ranged from 50 to 100 mgs.  I barely notice the side effects.  I keep trying to find a less stressful time so that I can start to wean myself which my doctor and I agree would be a good idea.  Please be very careful—if you are considering changing medication don’t do it suddenly or without consulting your doctor–there can be VERY nasty side effects from sudden withdrawal. Debby

Response:

: , he : looked in his drug reference book and, according to that, zoloft and : nortriptyline do EXACTLY the same thing in terms of serotonin reuptake. :  i THINK that nortriptyline is amytriptyline (sp?) (elavil)? & is classified : as a tricyclic, wheras zoloft is an SSRI (selective serotonin reuptake : inhibitor).   if that’s the case, perhaps they work a little differently, : albeit both on the serotonin. in any event, my experience with the : drowsiness is that it passes after awhile.  it was the dry mouth (from : elavil; i haven’t been on zoloft) that bummed me out. I believe nortriptyline is *related* to amitriptyline (none of this spelling looks right to me), not the same thing. Many of these antidepressants do *roughly* the same thing, but in slightly different ways.  This is why they may have different side effects and may work better in combination than alone. I’m switching off of Zoloft, and am trying Wellbutrin.  (Actually I’m on both now, as the Wellbutrin settles in, so I don’t get left with a period with no antidepressant — I have clinical depression.)  I may, however, end up taking two different antidepressants, taking one which has sleepiness side effects in the evening and Wellbutrin, which has energizing side effects, earlier in the day.  Lots of folks do it that way.  The sedative effect of the med taken in the evening helps one sleep. Years ago I was on amitryptaline to see if it would help my migraines, and I discovered that I could count on falling asleep almost exactly 30 minutes after I took my dose.  Which was great, because I often have trouble falling asleep. Priscilla

Response:

, he looked in his drug reference book and, according to that, zoloft and nortriptyline do EXACTLY the same thing in terms of serotonin reuptake.

 i THINK that nortriptyline is amytriptyline (sp?) (elavil)? & is classified as a tricyclic, wheras zoloft is an SSRI (selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor).   if that’s the case, perhaps they work a little differently, albeit both on the serotonin. in any event, my experience with the drowsiness is that it passes after awhile.  it was the dry mouth (from elavil; i haven’t been on zoloft) that bummed me out.

Response:

You miss the point.  Why stop at all, if that medication is preventing the migraines?  Isn’t this sort of telling the patient that the migraine is all in your head and you just have to deal with it?  As if you have agoraphobia or something that you just have to "get over"?  To put it another way, if you were taking insulin shots for diabetes, would your doctor attempt to "wean" you off of insulin?

No, I dont think it is the same thing and I dont think that the doctors are saying that it is all in our heads.. at least the good ones…… what I do think is that… as I posted earlier….. I was told that it is possible that the migraine is cyclic… meaning that they come in cycles and if that cycle is broken, it is possible to be without the medications for a while…. I am not a doctor, nor do I pretend to be one.. all I know is what I have been told and learned myself….. and that is that I see two possibilities for weaning off a medication… one the med isnt working and one is at a dosage that is too high just to stop cold turkey and switch….. as is the case I have with the inderal I am on… or two….. that the doctor wants to see if the patient is able to survive off the medications without getting the migraines back again…… if I had the possibility of breaking a cycle of migraines and living life with one or two a year and NOT being on medications….. well, it would be a dream come true….. I would think that it would be worth a shot at least to find out….. from a laymans point of view……unlike a diabetic….. blood sugar levels are able to be tested where as migraines (at least most from what I gather) cannot be found on any one test…. this leaves open a lot of room for opinion and differences  in treatments……. if a diabetic’s system were to improve then this person would need less and less insulin…. possibly even get to a point where they dont need it….. as has happened with juvinile diabetis… sooooooo  lets get hypothetical for a moment….. if there WERE a test for migraines.. and a patients system were to show that they are needing less and less of a medication… wouldnt it make sense for them to take the lesser dosage necessary?  so in that respect… since there ISNT a test to tell this…. one must try it and see…. as with us trying different medications and different courses of treatment.. each is different… each doctor is different.. each migraine is different… all one can do is experiment and try to get to the as I said, this is just my opinion and what I have been told….. Again, I am not a doctor and cannot speak for why individuals are weaned off meds or not, it is just a theory which in my laypersons opinion.. think is a valid one that if I were to get to the point that I  did not have a migraine in lets say  a year …. I would certaintly want to TRY and see if I were able to survive without all these drugs…. I hate taking them at all times and even now dream for the day to live life without them…… it is a constant fight going on within… why at 25 do I have to take all this junk…… what did I ever do… I might never have that answer…. who knows? Kristen Leigh

Response:

You miss the point.  Why stop at all, if that medication is preventing the migraines?  Isn’t this sort of telling the patient that the migraine is all in your head and you just have to deal with it?  As if you have agoraphobia or something that you just have to "get over"?  To put it another way, if you were taking insulin shots for diabetes, would your doctor attempt to "wean" you off of insulin? — Ninerfan

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Question: *Why* is it a "good idea" to wean yourself off of a medication which is preventing migraines? My opinion…. A medication takes upwards to 6 weeks at times to fully get into ones system….. stopping a medication quickly can shock ones system and might cause further medical complications… the medications dont know that we are taking them for migraines…… I take a blood pressure medication called Inderal… if I were to stop taking this completely cold turkey, it might shock my pressure and system and cause all sorts of difficulities…… make sense? Kristen Leigh

Response:

: Question: *Why* is it a "good idea" to wean yourself off of a medication : which is preventing migraines? Because stopping *any* medication too suddenly can shock the body and produce unpleasant effects. Priscilla

Response:

Hi Debby, snip< Question: *Why* is it a "good idea" to wean yourself off of a medication which is preventing migraines? — Ninerfan

Hi Ninerfan, Sorry it has taken me so long to reply to your question. I’ve been taking nortriptyline in varying dosages for about six years. In the meantime, I have also taken various other combinations of medicine to prevent my migraines and to treat my chronic daily headaches.  In addition to the nortriptyline, I also take Verapamil (calan){as a preventative} which is a calcium-channel blocker usually prescribed for high blood pressure.  When I began taking the Verapamil several years ago, my chronic daily headaches disappeared almost immediately.  Unless I am extremely stressed, my migraines (with aura) are pretty infrequent and they respond well to a combination of midrin and compazine or to DHE. I started taking nortriptyline when I was first being treated for rebound headaches from taking too much tylenol.  At that time I was having headaches every day and migraines, as often as 2 – 3 times a week.  Since my headaches seem to be much less of a problem, it seems like a good idea to try to eliminate one of the medicines I take every day.  I expect to take Verapamil or other blood pressure medicines for quite some time since I am also taking them because I have moderately elevated blood pressure.  We’re trying to determine if I still need to take the nortriptyline anymore. I’m not a doctor nor do I play one on this newsgroup but I hope that this explanantion is helpful. Debby

Response:

Question:

I took Betaseron for a year and a half.  The flu-like symptoms went away  (fortunate, since I got chills so bad I had to buy a Polarfleece outfit to  sleep in under 2 blankets and 2 quilts).  But the depression, which began only  on injection days, got worse and  never went away.  Only an MRI would show  whether the Beta was doing its job.  I assume it was, but that wouldn’t do me  any good if I killed myself.  I tried Prozac, Zoloft, Effexor–had a variety  of unpleasant side effects.  I know depression can be an MS symptom, but this  did seem drug related, so I finally decided I’d rather live with the MS, quit  the Beta.  Took a year to pull out of scary depression.  I’m doing pretty well  now.    I gather that Betaseron does work for some (many?) people but I’ve felt that  it’s potential for depression has been understated.

Response:

Hi Sue! I have been on Betaseron for over 2 years now.  I didn’t take any prednisone  when I started it, but I do take it when my symptoms get worse.  Yeah, that  stuff is no fun at all! I have not had the "flu-like" symptoms since the first month I was on  Betaseron. My injection site problems have been minimal.  I rub aloe vera cream with  vitamins A, D, and E on my legs and stomach.  For the past 2 months, I have  convinced my boyfriend to help me inject my "hip" area–some word they came up  with for butt!  I am giving my other spots a rest this way.  The redness is  going away, and I hope my skin will be a little more receptive to the  injections. I have had what I call "mini-attacks" since I have been on the  Betaseron–nothing like the major ones I experienced before.  Is it the drug?  Who knows! It may not be helping me at all, or it could be what is keeping me  walking (not very well, but, hey, I’ll take it!) Best of luck in whatever you decide to do! Sylvia

Response:

I’m seriously considering taking one of the three drugs – betaseron, copaxone or avenox.  I have had the remitting kind of MS for 16 years.  I have had some permanent damage from many of the attacks.  I would like to ask the following questions of people who have been on these drugs. 1.  For those on betaseron or avenox – did you take steroids for the first  3 months?  I’m concerned about getting hyper,  nervous and depressed because that is what has happened in the past when I’ve been on prednisone.     Was there relief from your MS symptoms while on betaseron or avenox?     Was the improvement worth having all the flu-like symptoms, pain of shots,          etc.? 2.  For those on copaxone – was there any relief from  MS symptoms? 3.  Why do you feel that being on any of these three drugs is worth experiencing the side effects? Thanks for your help  Sue

Response:

Sue wrote:

I’m seriously considering taking one of the three drugs – 1.  For those on betaseron or avenox – did you take steroids for the first 3 months?      Was there relief from your MS symptoms while on betaseron or avenox?    Was the improvement worth having all the flu-like symptoms, pain of shots,          etc.?

I was on the study for Avonex for 2 years and on Betaseron for 2+ years and I didn’t have to take steroids for either one of them.  I myself got no relief while on either drug.  From what I understand there is not supposed to be any inprovement while on these drugs, just no worsening.

3.  Why do you feel that being on any of these three drugs is worth experiencing the side effects?

While I did not feel any different being on either dug, a few months after going off each one I had an exacerbation.  So I guess they must have been doing something right. I hope this answers some of your questions, Marcy http://members.aol.com/marcyrw2/MS.html

Response:

Suepinca <suepi…@aol.com

wrote in article

<19970929004601.UAA15…@ladder01.news.aol.com

… I’m seriously considering taking one of the three drugs – betaseron, copaxone or avenox.  

<snip

Sue,  I just started Avonex as I was starting to have symptoms that interfered with me doing my work at the office – To me Avonex was recommended and I also was happier injecting once a week rather than injecting every two days with Beta.  I currently am set to have 1 day of solu-medrol IV drip each month and the avonex injections weekly.  The first time I had horrible after effects from the avonex, second time I increased the tylenol to 4 doses (2 hrs before shot, at time of shot & twice more before retiring to bed) and had no after effects from the shot that time.   I will not know if the Avonex is working for sure, but I am hoping it will slow down the progression.  The solu-medrol is to help with some of my current numbness and I believe it is helping a little.  Good luck in your decision. PS I do not mind self-injecting the Avonex

Response:

Hi! I’ve been on Betaseron just over a year. At first I did quite well with

the

self injections. I take Baclofen, Amitryptiline and Paxil, too. I only

started

taking the Paxil (antidepressent) a few months ago. About 6 months

into the

therapy I began having anxiety attacks when I tried to inject. My

husband still

has to inject me but i don’t get upset anymore. I feel the

medicine has kept me

from having severe symtoms. I’ve had mild ones when

I’ve overdone. On the

subject of side effects; I found that if I take two

ibuprofen tablets when I

get my shot, I suffer no side effects. I have

tested this theory and find that

if I don’t take the ibuprofen, I get the

aches & fever. I’d like to switch to

Avonex for the convenience and fewer

injection sights (getting scar tissue) but

those two free months are a

powerful incentive. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Polly

In article <342fa40e.6874…@news.jersey.net

, re…@usa.net wrote: Sue, I haven’t been on Avonex for long enough to know if it’s helping (5 weeks, after 3 months of Betaseron). I also haven’t had active MS enough to know. I had one attack prior to staring Betaseron, and another three months into the treatment. I think you have to take it longer than that to see results. I received IV prednisone with an oral taper (total time, 2 weeks) for both attacks. The side effects gradually disappeared once I stopped the steroids, and my symptoms completely cleared the first time. I am now waiting for the numbness in my right side to completely clear; it’s gradually improving. My understanding of both Avonex and Betaseron is that they won’t make you feel better, but will decrease the number and severity attacks. Future MRIs should show fewer or no plaques have formed. Both are suppposedly equally effective, but I switched to Avonex because it’s more convenient, once a week rather than every other day, and it doesn’t leave any injection site marks. Beta leaves pinkish marks on some spots that take a long time to disappear. I continued Avonex while on steroids and experienced no adverse effects. I found the side effects about equal with both, and that is, the flu-like symptoms subside after a month or so of injections. Although the Avonex needle is longer and it goes into your muscle, rather than under the skin with Beta, I find no difference in pain sensation between the two. It just feels like a brief pin stick, and I barely notice it now when the needle goes in. I think it’s worth a try, if it will prevent future attacks and nerve damage. Beta and Avonex are both based on interferons that occur naturally in the body. I get blood tests every few months to make sure no damage is being done to my stem. I have also improved my diet, am using some herbal supplements, and am on a "maintenance" program of exercises prescribed by a physical therapist to keep me as mobile as possible. I’m seriously considering taking one of the three drugs – betaseron, copaxone or avenox.  I have had the remitting kind of MS for 16 years.  I have had some permanent damage from many of the attacks.  I would like to ask the following questions of people who have been on these drugs. 1.  For those on betaseron or avenox – did you take steroids for the first 3 months?  I’m concerned about getting hyper,  nervous and depressed because that is what has happened in the past when I’ve been on prednisone.    Was there relief from your MS symptoms while on betaseron or avenox?    Was the improvement worth having all the flu-like symptoms, pain of shots,          etc.? 2.  For those on copaxone – was there any relief from  MS symptoms? 3.  Why do you feel that being on any of these three drugs is worth experiencing the side effects?    ——————————————————    ~ ~      Reesa Marchetti, Editor-Writer-Musician-Web Author     `O O^         re…@usa.net   http://www.jersey.net/~reesa    <                 …COol MOther    ^^

Response:

Sue, I haven’t been on Avonex for long enough to know if it’s helping (5 weeks, after 3 months of Betaseron). I also haven’t had active MS enough to know. I had one attack prior to staring Betaseron, and another three months into the treatment. I think you have to take it longer than that to see results. I received IV prednisone with an oral taper (total time, 2 weeks) for both attacks. The side effects gradually disappeared once I stopped the steroids, and my symptoms completely cleared the first time. I am now waiting for the numbness in my right side to completely clear; it’s gradually improving. My understanding of both Avonex and Betaseron is that they won’t make you feel better, but will decrease the number and severity attacks. Future MRIs should show fewer or no plaques have formed. Both are suppposedly equally effective, but I switched to Avonex because it’s more convenient, once a week rather than every other day, and it doesn’t leave any injection site marks. Beta leaves pinkish marks on some spots that take a long time to disappear. I continued Avonex while on steroids and experienced no adverse effects. I found the side effects about equal with both, and that is, the flu-like symptoms subside after a month or so of injections. Although the Avonex needle is longer and it goes into your muscle, rather than under the skin with Beta, I find no difference in pain sensation between the two. It just feels like a brief pin stick, and I barely notice it now when the needle goes in. I think it’s worth a try, if it will prevent future attacks and nerve damage. Beta and Avonex are both based on interferons that occur naturally in the body. I get blood tests every few months to make sure no damage is being done to my stem. I have also improved my diet, am using some herbal supplements, and am on a "maintenance" program of exercises prescribed by a physical therapist to keep me as mobile as possible.

I’m seriously considering taking one of the three drugs – betaseron, copaxone or avenox.  I have had the remitting kind of MS for 16 years.  I have had some permanent damage from many of the attacks.  I would like to ask the following questions of people who have been on these drugs. 1.  For those on betaseron or avenox – did you take steroids for the first 3 months?  I’m concerned about getting hyper,  nervous and depressed because that is what has happened in the past when I’ve been on prednisone.    Was there relief from your MS symptoms while on betaseron or avenox?    Was the improvement worth having all the flu-like symptoms, pain of shots,          etc.? 2.  For those on copaxone – was there any relief from  MS symptoms? 3.  Why do you feel that being on any of these three drugs is worth experiencing the side effects?

   ——————————————————    ~ ~      Reesa Marchetti, Editor-Writer-Musician-Web Author     `O O^         re…@usa.net   http://www.jersey.net/~reesa    <                      …COol MOther    ^^                    

Response: