Question:

Is there any research indicating that Singulair can have a beneficial effect for people with Chronic Obstructive Pulmonary Disease? I’ve asked my doctor, an internist with a subspecialty in pulmonology, about this, and he was doubtful that the drug would be helpful to me. Since the various "classic" asthma meds are used in treating COPD symptoms, it seems strange that the anti-leukotrienes (and Singulair, in particular) have not been recommended by the drug mfrs. [I posted this question to this list several months ago. I'm asking it again, on the outside chance that there is possibly some new data available.] — Neal Blank http://p3.net/~nealb/

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I am just taking a guess from what I know about Singulair.  I am sure If I am way off base here aleast one of you will correct me.  Singulair, goes after the chemical that at the root of the problem causes the bronchial spasms.  By stopping the spasms there will be less inflammation, in turn lessing the asthma attacks.  Bronchistis, and emphysema are due to inflamed bronchial tubes, but are not caused by the spasms that causes the inflammations of asthma, so Singulair will not help.  I am not sure if I am right but, this may (or may not)help.

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Is there any research indicating that Singulair can have a beneficial effect for people with Chronic Obstructive Pulmonary Disease? I’ve asked my doctor, an internist with a subspecialty in pulmonology, about this, and he was doubtful that the drug would be helpful to me. Since the various "classic" asthma meds are used in treating COPD symptoms, it seems strange that the anti-leukotrienes (and Singulair, in particular) have not been recommended by the drug mfrs. [I posted this question to this list several months ago. I'm asking it again, on the outside chance that there is possibly some new data available.]

No I don’t think there is any data available. I note that in the UK the drug is only licensed for asthma. However, I have COPD with a ‘reversible componant’, which means that I respond to corticosteroid therapy with an improvement in PF and FEV1. I also respond to bronchodilators. Call this asthma if you like, and yes I have been perscribed Singulair and yes it seems to have definitely improved things for me. I have now just finished the first months treatment and the improvement I felt within days of taking it seems to have been maintained. Yesterday was the *first day for over ten years* that I have not used a single puff of Ventolin If you can persuade them to let you have it I would say it is worth a try. Regards Rob Remove the spam from address if replying by email

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I am just taking a guess from what I know about Singulair.  I am sure If I am way off base here aleast one of you will correct me.  Singulair, goes after the chemical that at the root of the problem causes the bronchial spasms.  By stopping the spasms there will be less inflammation, in turn lessing the asthma attacks.  Bronchistis, and emphysema are due to inflamed bronchial tubes, but are not caused by the spasms that causes the inflammations of asthma, so Singulair will not help.  I am not sure if I am right but, this may (or may not)help.

Not wrong, but an oversimplification. Yes, LTD is a potent broncho-constrictor. BUt it appears to be having at least mild anti-inflammatory effects at least in mild to moderate asthmatics.  THe reasons arent clear yet, but bronchospasm can lead to secondary release of mediators (prostaglandin D, Thromboxane A, cytokines, etc) which ARE inflammatory. If LTD even partially inhibits the release of such mediators from mast cells, eosinophils etc, it would have anti-inflammatory effects. BUT – *I* don’t know of any evidence that LTD is a precipitating agent in COPD.  If it’s not a major player in that disease, SIngulair/Accolate’s impact is likely to be far less than in asthma.  To date, there are no scientific studies of the question.  Both LTE and LTB (a leukotriene NOT targeted by Accolate/Singulair) have been shown to be elevated in COPD, but whether reducing that elevation has any effect in the disease doesnt appear to have been studied.  IF LTB is importand, COPD may be better treated with Zyflo than with the LT-RAs.

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Question:

Many thanks for the info!  Will check that website right away!

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Does anyone know if this publisher runs early or late on publication dates and what sort of revisions were made?  I am torn between getting what is available now and waiting for the revised edition.

Publication date for books are about as reliable as release dates for computer software.  For both books and software I have taken the attitude: "I’ll believe it when I see it on the shelf."

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When I went to my local bookstore to buy The Asthma Sourcebook (right title?) which I have often seen highly praised in this group, I was told a revised edition is due out in November of 1998–about 4 months down the road.   Does anyone know if this publisher runs early or late on publication dates and what sort of revisions were made?  I am torn between getting what is available now and waiting for the revised edition.

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When I went to my local bookstore to buy The Asthma Sourcebook (right title?) which I have often seen highly praised in this group, I was told a revised edition is due out in November of 1998–about 4 months down the road. Does anyone know if this publisher runs early or late on publication dates and what sort of revisions were made?  I am torn between getting what is available now and waiting for the revised edition.

The author of ‘The Asthma Sourcebook’, Francis Adams, MD, has a web site. His email address is there. You could try emailing him with that question. Let us know what he says. http://home.earthlink.net/~francisva/news.html The Asthma Sourcebook News The existing book is copyright ‘96 and seems consistent with the ‘97 Expert Panel Report 2 in most respects. I doubt the updates would be substantial–lists of new drugs released like Pulmicort and Singulair. But you can pick up some of this info from his website. Cost of existing book is only $16 (less than a canister of Ventolin) and some stores discount, like amazon.com His web site has a link that takes you to amazon.com Ellis

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Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Enfilade, Effexor is a big time drug to be on for depression – it is usually used for major depression and even some psychotic disorders.  I understand that you want off of the medication because you feel good now – but remember, that is the medication helping you to feel better and control your depression. If you are wanting to try something that won’t turn you into a zombie, ask your doctor about weaning off of it, while being started on something else. If you are taken off of medication completely and you begin to relapse, you could spiral downward before a new drug takes effect (anti-depressants usually take 3-4 weeks before full effect is reached). The consequesnces of that far outweight the benefits of being "drug-free." Also, a relapse is usually worse once being taken off of a medication because of the major changes in the chemicals in your brain… Please be careful I know there is a stigma attached to being on medication for depression, but it is an illness…. Really think of the benefits of the medication vesus the possible results of being off of the medication. Talk to your doc first about switching to a different kind, one that still helps your symptoms, but with less side effects. Good luck

This is wonderful advice, judging from my experience with clinically’ depressed loved ones. Have your doctor help you find a drug that does not interefere with your quality of life–but remember that depression kills. It is a terrible, debilitating disease.

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I have to second this.  These days with managed care, a lot of antidepressants are prescribed by general physicians who frankly don’t have the right pharmocological background.

Yes. And they are prescribing them to people without clinical illness, in many cases. Sometimes I think half the people on antidepressants are not clinically depressed, they just want to "feel better." I think this is dangerous. I’ve been very lucky– in a sense– because my depressions have always been under a psychiatrist’s treatment.  I’m not saying this is true of everyone, but with my history, and my genetics, I have a very strong inclination towards depression.  I would no more try to "tough" out a depression without medication than I would refuse insulin if I were diabetic. I have had the experience of withdrawing off a very tough drug (nardil), and while I never hope to repeat such a thing, it was incredibly important that I do it.  I am now stable on a low dose of Wellbutrin, which seems to have little/no side effects for me.

Wellbutrin has been a wonder drug for a friend of mine. So few side effects for her.

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That red haze is starting to creep back a little, since the doc didn’t in any way suggest that this was a "for the rest of my life" kind of thing until just now.  I feel like I’ve gotten suckered into this situation, and that pisses me off. –Enfilade

I was on Effexor for about three years, and went off it for much the same reasons you mentioned. I’ve been off antidepresants for a couple years now, but it’s getting to be time to start again. Going to have to visit the doc to get a prescription for something other than Effexor. If you do it carefully, with the doc monitoring you closely, I’d sure think it ought to be possible to wean yourself off the Effexor until you can start with something else. Of course if you don’t have health insurance the "close monitoring" thing might be a problem too. We’ll be sending our best purrs that you are able to find a way to make the transition off of Effexor.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This is my first vent here… I want to get off the Effexor I’ve been taking for depression for almost a year now.  I’ve been more stable than DP’s seen me to be in the past 8 years, in the last 6 months.  Unfortunately, in those last 6 months I also sleep about 12 hours a day, and occasionally I get this "Stoned" sensation where stuff gets blurry and I have trouble thinking of words or figuring out just where I am…I’ll wander and then snap out of my reverie like, two hours later, wondering where the time went. The stuff’s expensive as hell, I have no drug coverage, and there’s no way I can do a master’s thesis in September if I’m sleeping more than I’m awake. If I want back on flight operations, I have to lose the drugs that could affect my ability to control an aircraft. So today I’m at the doctor’s and he tells me that if I quit the stuff, I’m almost guaranteed to relapse. DP’s afraid I will, sometime when no one’s around to stop me from cutting my throat–or someone else’s. I’m in my 20s.  I don’t want to be on this crap for the rest of my life.  Hell, the concept of being stuck on drugs is one of the big reasons I left my depression untreated until I became a menace to people around me as well as myself.  I think I know the symptoms well enough–if I start inflicting injury on myself and viewing life through a red rage haze, it’s time to go back on the pills.  I was depressed, I think, since about age 4 or so, but during that time I only had two severe (ie, want-to-kill-myself) episodes, and those 8 years apart.  The minor rounds I could handle without chemical interference.  At that rate, it’d be 2013 before I needed pills again. That’s a lot of money and a lot of drug-free years. That red haze is starting to creep back a little, since the doc didn’t in any way suggest that this was a "for the rest of my life" kind of thing until just now.  I feel like I’ve gotten suckered into this situation, and that pisses me off. –Enfilade

Over the years, I worked my way through just about all the prescription drugs for depression. At this time, I’ve been on Venlafaxine for several years now; according to my shrink, I’ll never develop an "immunity" to it, the way I gradually did to each other. Ask your doctor to consider it.

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If you do it carefully, with the doc monitoring you closely, I’d sure think it ought to be possible to wean yourself off the Effexor until you can start with something else. Of course if you don’t have health insurance the "close monitoring" thing might be a problem too. We’ll be sending our best purrs that you are able to find a way to make the transition off of Effexor.

Howdy folks! Thanks for all your comments.  I really appreciate it. "Close monitoring’ is easy for me because DP is a medical student. Also, in Canada, visiting the doctor is free.  The only thing I have to pay for is the pills. Now, with DP being a medical student, he and I have gone ’round on this one…while he thinks I should be on /something/, he also is willing to live by my decision, if a bit nervously.  At first he insisted that Effexor couldn’t possibly make me sleepy because his medical journals say it causes insomnia; however, today he met up with a neurophysician friend, who said that there are instances of that side effect on record, so NA NAAAA *sticks out tongue* *Serves you right to believe the studies instead of me PPPPPPTHHH!!!* *ahem* As for side effects, once in a snowstorm I did without for three days and aside from a bit of dizziness (I’ve had far worse from the flu) I was fine.  What I don’t like is, the doc says the stuff isn’t addictive, and yet if I’m not supposed to go off it EVER, I might as /well/ be addicted. What am I on it for?  Well, for the most part, I have my stuff pretty well together.  For 25 years I’d hit "lows", which never lasted more than about 6 hours.  I’d spend those days in my room, watching videos if I could concentrate and lying around if I couldn’t, waiting for the "weather to pass."  I could handle this. My first bad time hit when I started feeling abandoned by my friends, broke up with my boyfriend, had health issues, my grades slipped a bit, and I and got kicked out of the house by my mom for taking a spare to address the grades thing.  I was living on people’s couches and/or the public airport, and wanted a lot of support from my friends that they didn’t or couldnt or didn’t know to give (I’m an independent SOB who didn’t know how to ask for help, so it wasn’t entirely their fault.) I was 17, had done all I wanted to do in my life, and didn’t know how I was going to keep myself fed and sheltered until I got to university, or if it wasn’t maybe ready for me to call my life "finished" since I’d met all my goals. My more recent one involved 7 months of looking for work when my EI ran out and I took a job at the mall.  Another 2 months with a jealous co-worker actively trying to get me fired, a position that involved coercive selling despite what I was told at my interview, more unsuccessful job interviews, and me with a master’s degree going apesh!t from boredom, while DPs life was at its high point and he was celebrating being here in this city while I wanted to grab my duffel bag and go back to living in cars and airports if it’d get me out of here. It takes some pretty bad sh!t to set me off…so while I /am/ a little, er, short-fused at those times, normal life doesn’t evoke depression in me.  I’m hopefully in a master’s program full time next year–academia is a stabilizing lifestyle for me.  Better to do another master’s than end up in the nutty house.  Anyway, I think my life will be pretty stable then–DP is such a calming influence on me.  Sometimes I feel like he’s my nurse.  Of course, on his part, he sometimes tends to be quite naive and carefree/careless, and needs me watching his back.  "Just because YOU wouldn’t steal a car doesn’t mean someone else wouldn’t…so LOCK THE CAR." –Fil

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Effexor isn’t the only antidepressant out there, and your doc is greatly remiss in not considering exploring other meds. There are ADs that don’t cause hypersomnia, and which might be less expensive than Effexor. The problem with Effexor is that quitting cold is not an option; it has to be done gradually and incrementally. Quitting all at once produces an extremely undesirable sensation known as "brain spins," "brain shivers," "brain surges," and other unsavory encephalitic phrases. One person described it to me as feeling like your brain is spinning inside your head. Alternatives are out there, and you deserve to have the chance to explore them. I can only add to what everyone else has said.  AD medication is not yet totally understood.  As sufferers, we have to accept that.  After all, we all would like a perfect world, but it just isn’t there yet.  The best thing is to find a practitioner who is willing to try different medication until the benefit outways the side-effects. Don’t forget you need a few weeks to wean off the old drug, and a few weeks for the new one to start to work properly.  It took me a year or two of trying several different drugs until we found one that has almost no side-effects and works really well.

Absolute agreement. The withdrawal effects, and also trying to figure out if the new drug is starting to work, takes time. In some cases, it’s not just clearing confusion. In the case of the MAO inhibitors, not letting another drug clear (about 2 weeks) can kill you. MAO inhibitors are effective, but they have so many drug and food interactions — potentially lethal ones — that they are avoided. A drug that won’t let you have chocolate, chianti, or aged cheese? Perish the thought!   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If this sounds like a long time, it’s not really.  Almost the first drug you try will help with the AD and you will feel better; from there it’s just a matter of fine-tuning the process so that the side-effects are reduced.  Some people will put up with a bit of sleeplessness, others loss of libido, others jitterness.  You just need to find a drug whose side-effects are acceptable to you. Good luck, and don’t give up, because it *does* help in the long run.  I am feeling fine with my drugs and I’ve almost *no* side-effects.

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On 2005-03-09, Karen penned: Well, I’ll tell you what. I work below a doctor’s office, and EVERY (every single  solitary) day, I watch pharmaceutical reps tote in expensive (and I do mean from the BEST places in town) lunches for everyone. It is absolutely *revolting* to see this kind of "bribing" taking place every day. And you should see the vehicles the reps arrive in. No matter how much pharmaceutical companies cry "but it is SOOOOO expensive to research these very necessary drugs" whenever ever drug prices are brought up, I don’t believe it. I believe their marketing budget far outweighs their research. And how many pens and chairs (I kid you not, I saw two stadium chairs stamped with a huge Nexium logo woven right in at a garage sale this summer) and note pads do you see lying around? Makes me just want to urp.

My SIL worked as a biologist for a major pharmaceutical company and said basically the same thing. — monique, who spoils Oscar unmercifully pictures: http://www.bounceswoosh.org/rpca

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What gets to me about the antidepressant drug business is that it’s very well known that some drugs will work for some people while others will work better for other people. But, the only way to find out which one’s right for you is the brute force approach – try ‘em all until you find one that works for you. There’s very little research that examines which antidepressants work best for which people out in the community and why.   <cynic After all, drug manufacturers are probably doing quite well out of the brute force approach… it wouldn’t be in THEIR best interests to sponsor research that might find a better way. would it? </cynic Actually, there is a lot of research, or at least experience that gets shared among the psychiatrists that really want the information.  They may be specialists in psychopharmacology. Sometimes, the extra training there can get them networking with the right people. I remember a scathing editorial on Medscape.com by a pediatric psychopharmacologist, who was furious at all too many psychiatrists who overprescribe the newer drugs. Why?  Not studying?  Too much influence by pharmaceutical companies? Now, pharmacology has always been one of my interests. I’ve found a surprising number of doctors that don’t know the biochemistry of the multiple classes of drugs useful in different kinds of depression and with different patients, including:    Post-synaptic nonselective of ST and NE, operating on the    catechol-O-methyl-transferase enzyme system    Post-synaptic nonselective of ST and NE, operating on the    monoamine oxidase enzyme system    Pre-synaptic selective ST reuptake inhibitors    "Atypical" pre-synaptic ST reuptake inhibitors    Pre-synaptic nonselective ST/NE reuptake inhibitors    Pre-synaptic selective NE reuptake inhibitors    Anticonvulsants    Lithium    Stimulant amines like Ritalin    Strattera … need I go on?  Something that often gets missed is a patient with mixed anxiety and depression, who may need an anxiolytic as well as an antidepressant. There are also drugs that can help minimize the side effects of some of the psychotropics, such as beta-blockers to minimize the hand tremor common with the anticonvulsant valproate. OK, I’m only a number-cruncher – I freely admit that I know nothing about pharmacology and I’m just spouting speculation. But it does seem to me that an awful lot of published drug studies don’t reflect how medications are really used in the community as opposed to what happens in carefully controlled clinical trials.

Precisely. In the US, the manufacturer applies to the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) with a New Drug Application (NDA) seeking licensing of a new drug. The FDA and the manufacturer agreee on the clinical trials that have been done [1] or need to be done, and, when there is sufficient information, an approval officer or panel decides whether to authorize a license. [1] Earlier in the process, a manufacturer, or independent researcher,     can apply for an Investigational New Drug (IND) application, which     gives the authority to use it in clinical trials.  INDs are not     available by prescription, although there is a "compassionate use"     procedure by which a clinician can request a supply of the     experimental drug for a patient in whom all other therapies have     failed. Each NDA is for a specific list of "indications", or conditions the manufacturer asserts the drug will treat.  Physicians are permitted to prescribe drugs for "off-label" indications not in the manufacturers’ literature. Part of the time, off-label prescribing can be a good way to use the knowledge of experienced physicians, especially for rarer conditions where the manufacturer didn’t want to pay for clinical trials for the other indication. An unfortunate other part of the time, however, we have seen pharmaceutical company representatives pushing off-label indications to increase sales, with no data backing it up. Incidentally, I’m not opposed to all pharmaceutical representatives, often called "detail men".  Some are extremely knowledgeable, help independent researchers and clinicians meet one another, and act as a channel between practicing physicians and the company research department. Others have the ethics of used car salesmen — and that’s increasingly common in their profit-driven upper management. It’s sad to remember that the accepted term for the US prescription drug manufacturers was the "ethical pharmaceutical industry."  At one time, many of the manufacturers really did have a commitment to medicine over short-term profit. In Australia (don’t know whether things are different in the USA) hardly anyone would be able to get their antidepressants prescribed by a psychiatrist – there are just so few of them that even if you’re able to pay privately, the waiting list for an appointment will be months long. You really have to be so ill that you’re a danger to other people (a danger to yourself isn’t enough) to be able to see a psychiatrist quickly. So, most people have to go to a GP to get a prescription, and I guess the shared experience of specialist psychiatrists on choosing an antidepressant isn’t reaching them. Then again, the shrinks are probably too darned overworked to publish what they know…

Quite frankly, then, I’ll put in a suggestion to the Australian medical authorities that they might do well to use computer assistance from one of my research areas: expert systems for prescribing. While my work has more been in cardiology and infectious disease, it’s quite possible to construct a "consultant in a box" that can help a primary physician select drugs and find alternatives. Unfortunately, there is an overall problem of specialist knowledge reaching GPs. In the US, there are several annual studies that show poor dissemination of knowledge. For example, cardiologists (a subspecialty of internal medicine, with their own subspecialties beyond that) usually know what drugs have been found good and bad in treating heart attack or congestive heart failures. Some of the effective drugs are NOT intuitive. Internists don’t have as high a knowledge of the correct drugs. The percentage of primary care physicians that know the most up-to-date therapies tends to be even lower. I must say that cuddling a cat is one of the best ways I’ve found to deal with depression in the short term. I personally find a big, heavy one with long whiskers and loud purrs most effective.

Absolutely.  Purring time should be reimbursable under all insurance plans!

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This is my first vent here… I want to get off the Effexor I’ve been taking for depression for almost a year now.  I’ve been more stable than DP’s seen me to be in the past 8 years, in the last 6 months.  Unfortunately, in those last 6 months I also sleep about 12 hours a day, and occasionally I get this "Stoned" sensation where stuff gets blurry and I have trouble thinking of words or figuring out just where I am…I’ll wander and then snap out of my reverie like, two hours later, wondering where the time went. The stuff’s expensive as hell, I have no drug coverage, and there’s no way I can do a master’s thesis in September if I’m sleeping more than I’m awake. If I want back on flight operations, I have to lose the drugs that could affect my ability to control an aircraft. So today I’m at the doctor’s and he tells me that if I quit the stuff, I’m almost guaranteed to relapse. DP’s afraid I will, sometime when no one’s around to stop me from cutting my throat–or someone else’s. I’m in my 20s.  I don’t want to be on this crap for the rest of my life.  Hell, the concept of being stuck on drugs is one of the big reasons I left my depression untreated until I became a menace to people around me as well as myself.  I think I know the symptoms well enough–if I start inflicting injury on myself and viewing life through a red rage haze, it’s time to go back on the pills.  I was depressed, I think, since about age 4 or so, but during that time I only had two severe (ie, want-to-kill-myself) episodes, and those 8 years apart.  The minor rounds I could handle without chemical interference.  At that rate, it’d be 2013 before I needed pills again.  That’s a lot of money and a lot of drug-free years. That red haze is starting to creep back a little, since the doc didn’t in any way suggest that this was a "for the rest of my life" kind of thing until just now.  I feel like I’ve gotten suckered into this situation, and that pisses me off. –Enfilade

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That red haze is starting to creep back a little, since the doc didn’t in any way suggest that this was a "for the rest of my life" kind of thing until just now.  I feel like I’ve gotten suckered into this situation, and that pisses me off. –Enfilade

Aw Fil, I know *EXACTLY* how you feel.  My doctor put me on Effexor because it’s supposed to help with the pain of Fibromyalgia.  Not *ONCE* did he tell me that the withdrawals from this drug are worse than the withdrawals from heroine – and last longer.  Please, *PLEASE*, don’t quit taking this drug cold turkey (that’s what I did because my doctor wouldn’t help me get off them in a gradual way).  I ended up in the emergency room and found out later that I could have killed myself by doing this. My daughter was also put on Effexor, but for depression.  She wanted to get off of them too, but couldn’t, not even with a gradual withdrawal (as soon as she missed one dose she would have horrible, severe flu-like symptoms. Some other withdrawal symptoms of Effexor that I had are feeling like I was being electrocuted with pulsing shock like feelings all through my body, nausea, heart palpitations, cold sweats, insomnia, dizziness, headaches, shakes, going into fugue states and not remembering where I was or what I was doing (really scary when you’re driving), crying jags and screaming rages. There is supposedly a class-action lawsuit against Wyeth-Ayerst Labs because they knew all about these symptoms but still pushed this drug for all kinds or medical problems besides depression.  There are newsgroup and chat rooms dedicated to nothing but the horrible side effects and withdrawal symptoms of this drug. Here is the result of a google search on Effexor withdrawal symptoms: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=effexor+withdrawals. Again, please be very careful how you go about getting off this drug, if you decide to.  I’ve heard that ClaritinD helps somewhat with the withdrawals. Hugs, CatNipped

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Nipped, That is one of the symptoms I had when I first stepped down the dosage – major flu like symptoms, and extremely exhausted. I am now over that, but it took almost a month.  My dr. said it was a Fibromyalgia flare, and it was because the Effexor had been controlling the symptoms and it wasn’t any more. Honestly, I felt WORSE after this drug than I ever did before as far as the fibro went. It is like it exacerbated it, rather than controlling it. Yeah, for me too.  I really didn’t feel any diminishment of pain from the fibro while I was on the Effexor.  It *did* help the depression that was caused by the fibro (finding out that you’re going to be in constant pain for the rest of your life can be quite depressing).  And you’re right, the pain during withdrawals was definitely worse than the pain I had before I started taking it.  I really don’t know why they haven’t taken this drug off the market – there’s beeen thousands of complaints to the FDA about it.  I think there’s been some *marjor* payoffs regarding this golden goose of the drug company that manufactures it.

It really does work for some people – me for one. When I started it I felt like I’d been woken up after years asleep. I’m not good at describing this sort of thing, but on this drug I actually started to feel like I could DO something – make choices and take actions – that might have some sort of effect on my life. I’d been through the usual list of other antidepressants – some didn’t work at all, some worked for a while, one worked well but I had an allergic reaction to it. I’m down to a really low dose now, but am not keen to stop it altogether in case I slide back into that old black hole again. So I can say it’s been good for me, but obviously it’s not good for everyone and probably is dangerous for some. What gets to me about the antidepressant drug business is that it’s very well known that some drugs will work for some people while others will work better for other people. But, the only way to find out which one’s right for you is the brute force approach – try ‘em all until you find one that works for you. There’s very little research that examines which antidepressants work best for which people out in the community and why.    <cynic After all, drug manufacturers are probably doing quite well out of the brute force approach… it wouldn’t be in THEIR best interests to sponsor research that might find a better way. would it? </cynic

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Hi Enfilade, Just want to let you know I wrote you a private email on this subject.  Let me know if you don’t get it. regards, Christine

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This is my first vent here… I want to get off the Effexor I’ve been taking for depression for almost a year now.  I’ve been more stable than DP’s seen me to be in the past 8 years, in the last 6 months.  Unfortunately, in those last 6 months I also sleep about 12 hours a day, and occasionally I get this "Stoned" sensation where stuff gets blurry and I have trouble thinking of words or figuring out just where I am…I’ll wander and then snap out of my reverie like, two hours later, wondering where the time went. The stuff’s expensive as hell, I have no drug coverage, and there’s no way I can do a master’s thesis in September if I’m sleeping more than I’m awake. If I want back on flight operations, I have to lose the drugs that could affect my ability to control an aircraft. So today I’m at the doctor’s and he tells me that if I quit the stuff, I’m almost guaranteed to relapse. DP’s afraid I will, sometime when no one’s around to stop me from cutting my throat–or someone else’s. I’m in my 20s.  I don’t want to be on this crap for the rest of my life.  Hell, the concept of being stuck on drugs is one of the big reasons I left my depression untreated until I became a menace to people around me as well as myself.  I think I know the symptoms well enough–if I start inflicting injury on myself and viewing life through a red rage haze, it’s time to go back on the pills.  I was depressed, I think, since about age 4 or so, but during that time I only had two severe (ie, want-to-kill-myself) episodes, and those 8 years apart.  The minor rounds I could handle without chemical interference.  At that rate, it’d be 2013 before I needed pills again.  That’s a lot of money and a lot of drug-free years. That red haze is starting to creep back a little, since the doc didn’t in any way suggest that this was a "for the rest of my life" kind of thing until just now.  I feel like I’ve gotten suckered into this situation, and that pisses me off. –Enfilade

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Is there a different antidepressant, with fewer side effects, that your doctor can help you switch over to? Nobody wants to be on meds for the long haul. That goes double for a med that’s causing side effects that are as disruptive to daily living as the problem the medicine is supposed to be relieving. But some people, including me, would be in a permanent state of depression without meds. In my case, even what I USED to think of as a normal state was a low-level state of depression, and I’ve wavered between that and flat-out clinical depression since I was 10. (Which means I’ve been dealing with this for over 30 years.) But it was being downsized a few years ago that brought on a really, REALLY severe and unrelenting case of depression. Finally, I went to the doctor because the symptoms were not only debilitating, they were showing no signs of lifting. The prescription I’m on right now is Celexa (citalopram), and it has helped a lot. It also doesn’t have the side effects you were describing. Maybe you can discuss switching over to that or to a different prescription that will help the depression, minus the side effects you’re getting from the Effexor. My husband is on thyroid medication, permanently, because his thyroid doesn’t produce enough hormone on its own. Friends and relatives of mine take insulin or pills to regulate diabetes, since their bodies don’t produce enough insulin. And there’s no difference between their permanent need for meds, and the fact that my body needs some help getting the serotonin level right. There’s no shame in needing any of those meds, or any other prescription, not even if it’s necessary over the long haul. It’s not fun AT ALL to have to deal with these issues. ( But see if you can work with your doctor to change to a different medication. And if this doc won’t work with you on that, it’s time for a second opinion. Keep us posted. Donna

Response:

Effexor isn’t the only antidepressant out there, and your doc is greatly remiss in not considering exploring other meds. There are ADs that don’t cause hypersomnia, and which might be less expensive than Effexor. The problem with Effexor is that quitting cold is not an option; it has to be done gradually and incrementally. Quitting all at once produces an extremely undesirable sensation known as "brain spins," "brain shivers," "brain surges," and other unsavory encephalitic phrases. One person described it to me as feeling like your brain is spinning inside your head. Alternatives are out there, and you deserve to have the chance to explore them.

I can only add to what everyone else has said.  AD medication is not yet totally understood.  As sufferers, we have to accept that.  After all, we all would like a perfect world, but it just isn’t there yet.  The best thing is to find a practitioner who is willing to try different medication until the benefit outways the side-effects. Don’t forget you need a few weeks to wean off the old drug, and a few weeks for the new one to start to work properly.  It took me a year or two of trying several different drugs until we found one that has almost no side-effects and works really well.   If this sounds like a long time, it’s not really.  Almost the first drug you try will help with the AD and you will feel better; from there it’s just a matter of fine-tuning the process so that the side-effects are reduced.  Some people will put up with a bit of sleeplessness, others loss of libido, others jitterness.  You just need to find a drug whose side-effects are acceptable to you. Good luck, and don’t give up, because it *does* help in the long run.  I am feeling fine with my drugs and I’ve almost *no* side-effects.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What gets to me about the antidepressant drug business is that it’s very well known that some drugs will work for some people while others will work better for other people. But, the only way to find out which one’s right for you is the brute force approach – try ‘em all until you find one that works for you. There’s very little research that examines which antidepressants work best for which people out in the community and why.   <cynic After all, drug manufacturers are probably doing quite well out of the brute force approach… it wouldn’t be in THEIR best interests to sponsor research that might find a better way. would it? </cynic Actually, there is a lot of research, or at least experience that gets shared among the psychiatrists that really want the information.  They may be specialists in psychopharmacology. Sometimes, the extra training there can get them networking with the right people. I remember a scathing editorial on Medscape.com by a pediatric psychopharmacologist, who was furious at all too many psychiatrists who overprescribe the newer drugs. Why?  Not studying?  Too much influence by pharmaceutical companies? Now, pharmacology has always been one of my interests. I’ve found a surprising number of doctors that don’t know the biochemistry of the multiple classes of drugs useful in different kinds of depression and with different patients, including:    Post-synaptic nonselective of ST and NE, operating on the    catechol-O-methyl-transferase enzyme system    Post-synaptic nonselective of ST and NE, operating on the    monoamine oxidase enzyme system    Pre-synaptic selective ST reuptake inhibitors    "Atypical" pre-synaptic ST reuptake inhibitors    Pre-synaptic nonselective ST/NE reuptake inhibitors    Pre-synaptic selective NE reuptake inhibitors    Anticonvulsants    Lithium    Stimulant amines like Ritalin    Strattera … need I go on?  Something that often gets missed is a patient with mixed anxiety and depression, who may need an anxiolytic as well as an antidepressant. There are also drugs that can help minimize the side effects of some of the psychotropics, such as beta-blockers to minimize the hand tremor common with the anticonvulsant valproate.

OK, I’m only a number-cruncher – I freely admit that I know nothing about pharmacology and I’m just spouting speculation. But it does seem to me that an awful lot of published drug studies don’t reflect how medications are really used in the community as opposed to what happens in carefully controlled clinical trials. In Australia (don’t know whether things are different in the USA) hardly anyone would be able to get their antidepressants prescribed by a psychiatrist – there are just so few of them that even if you’re able to pay privately, the waiting list for an appointment will be months long. You really have to be so ill that you’re a danger to other people (a danger to yourself isn’t enough) to be able to see a psychiatrist quickly. So, most people have to go to a GP to get a prescription, and I guess the shared experience of specialist psychiatrists on choosing an antidepressant isn’t reaching them. Then again, the shrinks are probably too darned overworked to publish what they know… I must say that cuddling a cat is one of the best ways I’ve found to deal with depression in the short term. I personally find a big, heavy one with long whiskers and loud purrs most effective.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This is my first vent here… I want to get off the Effexor I’ve been taking for depression for almost a year now.  I’ve been more stable than DP’s seen me to be in the past 8 years, in the last 6 months.  Unfortunately, in those last 6 months I also sleep about 12 hours a day, and occasionally I get this "Stoned" sensation where stuff gets blurry and I have trouble thinking of words or figuring out just where I am…I’ll wander and then snap out of my reverie like, two hours later, wondering where the time went. The stuff’s expensive as hell, I have no drug coverage, and there’s no way I can do a master’s thesis in September if I’m sleeping more than I’m awake. If I want back on flight operations, I have to lose the drugs that could affect my ability to control an aircraft. So today I’m at the doctor’s and he tells me that if I quit the stuff, I’m almost guaranteed to relapse. DP’s afraid I will, sometime when no one’s around to stop me from cutting my throat–or someone else’s. I’m in my 20s.  I don’t want to be on this crap for the rest of my life.  Hell, the concept of being stuck on drugs is one of the big reasons I left my depression untreated until I became a menace to people around me as well as myself.  I think I know the symptoms well enough–if I start inflicting injury on myself and viewing life through a red rage haze, it’s time to go back on the pills.  I was depressed, I think, since about age 4 or so, but during that time I only had two severe (ie, want-to-kill-myself) episodes, and those 8 years apart.  The minor rounds I could handle without chemical interference.  At that rate, it’d be 2013 before I needed pills again.  That’s a lot of money and a lot of drug-free years. That red haze is starting to creep back a little, since the doc didn’t in any way suggest that this was a "for the rest of my life" kind of thing until just now.  I feel like I’ve gotten suckered into this situation, and that pisses me off. –Enfilade

Effexor isn’t the only antidepressant out there, and your doc is greatly remiss in not considering exploring other meds. There are ADs that don’t cause hypersomnia, and which might be less expensive than Effexor. The problem with Effexor is that quitting cold is not an option; it has to be done gradually and incrementally. Quitting all at once produces an extremely undesirable sensation known as "brain spins," "brain shivers," "brain surges," and other unsavory encephalitic phrases. One person described it to me as feeling like your brain is spinning inside your head. Alternatives are out there, and you deserve to have the chance to explore them.

Response:

In article – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is there a different antidepressant, with fewer side effects, that your doctor can help you switch over to? Nobody wants to be on meds for the long haul. That goes double for a med that’s causing side effects that are as disruptive to daily living as the problem the medicine is supposed to be relieving. But some people, including me, would be in a permanent state of depression without meds. In my case, even what I USED to think of as a normal state was a low-level state of depression, and I’ve wavered between that and flat-out clinical depression since I was 10. (Which means I’ve been dealing with this for over 30 years.) But it was being downsized a few years ago that brought on a really, REALLY severe and unrelenting case of depression. Finally, I went to the doctor because the symptoms were not only debilitating, they were showing no signs of lifting. The prescription I’m on right now is Celexa (citalopram), and it has helped a lot. It also doesn’t have the side effects you were describing. Maybe you can discuss switching over to that or to a different prescription that will help the depression, minus the side effects you’re getting from the Effexor.

Celexa is in a different family than Effexor. Celexa, along with Paxil and a few others, is considered an "atypical" selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor. I’ve gotten biochemical enough without getting into why these are considered "atypical" with respect to Prozac, Zoloft, etc. Yes, yes, yes. If one psychotropic drug doesn’t work well, there tend to be alternatives, both within the same family and in different families.   For example, I have intolerable dry mouth with the tricyclic antidepressant amitriptyline (Elavil), but not with the closely related nortriptyline (Pamelor). My husband is on thyroid medication, permanently, because his thyroid doesn’t produce enough hormone on its own. Friends and relatives of mine take insulin or pills to regulate diabetes, since their bodies don’t produce enough insulin. And there’s no difference between their permanent need for meds, and the fact that my body needs some help getting the serotonin level right. There’s no shame in needing any of those meds, or any other prescription, not even if it’s necessary over the long haul. It’s not fun AT ALL to have to deal with these issues. ( But see if you can work with your doctor to change to a different medication. And if this doc won’t work with you on that, it’s time for a second opinion.

Exactly. I find more physicians "stuck" with a very few psychotropic drugs than almost any other class of medications. If an infectious disease specialist only wanted to use 2 or 3 classes of antibiotics, they’d be considered candidates for psychotherapy, or at least intensive retraining. Why can’t psychiatrists bother with the alternativews available to them?

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Too many psychiatrists are overly fixated on single drugs or drug classes. They seem to fixate on the newest drugs, rather than older ones that can be quite effective

Well, I’ll tell you what. I work below a doctor’s office, and EVERY (every single  solitary) day, I watch pharmaceutical reps tote in expensive (and I do mean from the BEST places in town) lunches for everyone. It is absolutely *revolting* to see this kind of "bribing" taking place every day. And you should see the vehicles the reps arrive in. No matter how much pharmaceutical companies cry "but it is SOOOOO expensive to research these very necessary drugs" whenever ever drug prices are brought up, I don’t believe it. I believe their marketing budget far outweighs their research. And how many pens and chairs (I kid you not, I saw two stadium chairs stamped with a huge Nexium logo woven right in at a garage sale this summer) and note pads do you see lying around? Makes me just want to urp.

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What gets to me about the antidepressant drug business is that it’s very well known that some drugs will work for some people while others will work better for other people. But, the only way to find out which one’s right for you is the brute force approach – try ‘em all until you find one that works for you. There’s very little research that examines which antidepressants work best for which people out in the community and why.    <cynic After all, drug manufacturers are probably doing quite well out of the brute force approach… it wouldn’t be in THEIR best interests to sponsor research that might find a better way. would it? </cynic

Actually, there is a lot of research, or at least experience that gets shared among the psychiatrists that really want the information.  They may be specialists in psychopharmacology. Sometimes, the extra training there can get them networking with the right people. I remember a scathing editorial on Medscape.com by a pediatric psychopharmacologist, who was furious at all too many psychiatrists who overprescribe the newer drugs. Why?  Not studying?  Too much influence by pharmaceutical companies? Now, pharmacology has always been one of my interests. I’ve found a surprising number of doctors that don’t know the biochemistry of the multiple classes of drugs useful in different kinds of depression and with different patients, including:    Post-synaptic nonselective of ST and NE, operating on the    catechol-O-methyl-transferase enzyme system    Post-synaptic nonselective of ST and NE, operating on the    monoamine oxidase enzyme system    Pre-synaptic selective ST reuptake inhibitors    "Atypical" pre-synaptic ST reuptake inhibitors    Pre-synaptic nonselective ST/NE reuptake inhibitors    Pre-synaptic selective NE reuptake inhibitors    Anticonvulsants    Lithium    Stimulant amines like Ritalin    Strattera … need I go on?  Something that often gets missed is a patient with mixed anxiety and depression, who may need an anxiolytic as well as an antidepressant. There are also drugs that can help minimize the side effects of some of the psychotropics, such as beta-blockers to minimize the hand tremor common with the anticonvulsant valproate.

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(Snip) But some people, including me, would be in a permanent state of depression without meds. In my case, even what I USED to think of as a normal state was a low-level state of depression, and I’ve wavered between that and flat-out clinical depression since I was 10. (Which means I’ve been dealing with this for over 30 years.)

I have to second this.  These days with managed care, a lot of antidepressants are prescribed by general physicians who frankly don’t have the right pharmocological background.  I’ve been very lucky– in a sense– because my depressions have always been under a psychiatrist’s treatment.  I’m not saying this is true of everyone, but with my history, and my genetics, I have a very strong inclination towards depression.  I would no more try to "tough" out a depression without medication than I would refuse insulin if I were diabetic. I have had the experience of withdrawing off a very tough drug (nardil), and while I never hope to repeat such a thing, it was incredibly important that I do it.  I am now stable on a low dose of Wellbutrin, which seems to have little/no side effects for me. Theresa Stinky Pictures: http://community.webshots.com/album/125591586JWEFwh My Blog: http://www.humanitas.blogspot.com

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This is my first vent here… I want to get off the Effexor I’ve been taking for depression for almost a year now.  I’ve been more stable than DP’s seen me to be in the past 8 years, in the last 6 months.  Unfortunately, in those last 6 months I also sleep about 12 hours a day, and occasionally I get this "Stoned" sensation where stuff gets blurry and I have trouble thinking of words or figuring out just where I am…I’ll wander and then snap out of my reverie like, two hours later, wondering where the time went.

Funny how things work — we are looking at it as an alternative, but only if we can’t tweak the dosage on my present drugs. If Effexor does have a positive effect as well as side effects, there is a reasonable class of alternatives: the "first-generation" tricyclic antidepressants (TCA).  Cheap, and with a different side effect profile. Both Effexor and the TCAs differ from the "second generation" selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRI) in being nonselective: they elevate both serotonin and norepinephrine, rather than just serotonin. The two classes do it by different mechanisms. Effexor works presynaptically, slowing the reuptake into the transmitting cell. TCAs work postsynaptically, inhibiting the enzyme catechol-O-methyl-transferase, which metabolizes serotonin and norepinephrine in The stuff’s expensive as hell, I have no drug coverage, and there’s no way I can do a master’s thesis in September if I’m sleeping more than I’m awake. If I want back on flight operations, I have to lose the drugs that could affect my ability to control an aircraft. So today I’m at the doctor’s and he tells me that if I quit the stuff, I’m almost guaranteed to relapse.

Too many psychiatrists are overly fixated on single drugs or drug classes. They seem to fixate on the newest drugs, rather than older ones that can be quite effective — and usually much cheaper. IIRC, a month’s supply of nortriptyline is around USD $10.  TCAs fall into two families, the first drug of one class being amitriptyline and the first drug of the second being imipramine.  The second group tends to be less sedating, although you can usually minimize sedation by changing drugs within the same group. I’m in my 20s.  I don’t want to be on this crap for the rest of my life.  Hell, the concept of being stuck on drugs is one of the big reasons I left my depression untreated until I became a menace to people around me as well as myself.  I think I know the symptoms well enough–if I start inflicting injury on myself and viewing life through a red rage haze, it’s time to go back on the pills.  I was depressed, I think, since about age 4 or so, but during that time I only had two severe (ie, want-to-kill-myself) episodes, and those 8 years apart.  The minor rounds I could handle without chemical interference.  At that rate, it’d be 2013 before I needed pills again.  That’s a lot of money and a lot of drug-free years.

That may be perfectly good reasoning. Having someone that can get creative with the drugs, seeking less sedating and cheaper alternatives, also can be valid. That red haze is starting to creep back a little, since the doc didn’t in any way suggest that this was a "for the rest of my life" kind of thing until just now.  I feel like I’ve gotten suckered into this situation, and that pisses me off.

Personally, I don’t have a "rest of my life" concern with psychotropic drugs, any more than my cardiac drugs — _IF_ they are appropriately prescribed with plenty of thought.

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<very gently snipped My daughter was also put on Effexor, but for depression.  She wanted to

get off of them too, but couldn’t, not even with a gradual withdrawal (as soon as she missed one dose she would have horrible, severe flu-like symptoms. Hi Nipped, That is one of the symptoms I had when I first stepped down the dosage – major flu like symptoms, and extremely exhausted. I am now over that, but it took almost a month.  My dr. said it was a Fibromyalgia flare, and it was because the Effexor had been controlling the symptoms and it wasn’t any more. Honestly, I felt WORSE after this drug than I ever did before as far as the fibro went. It is like it exacerbated it, rather than controlling it. Thanks for the tip on ClaritinD – I will most certainly try it. Patti

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Hi Nipped, That is one of the symptoms I had when I first stepped down the dosage – major flu like symptoms, and extremely exhausted. I am now over that, but it took almost a month.  My dr. said it was a Fibromyalgia flare, and it was because the Effexor had been controlling the symptoms and it wasn’t any more. Honestly, I felt WORSE after this drug than I ever did before as far as the fibro went. It is like it exacerbated it, rather than controlling

it. Yeah, for me too.  I really didn’t feel any diminishment of pain from the fibro while I was on the Effexor.  It *did* help the depression that was caused by the fibro (finding out that you’re going to be in constant pain for the rest of your life can be quite depressing).  And you’re right, the pain during withdrawals was definitely worse than the pain I had before I started taking it.  I really don’t know why they haven’t taken this drug off the market – there’s beeen thousands of complaints to the FDA about it.  I think there’s been some *marjor* payoffs regarding this golden goose of the drug company that manufactures it. Hugs, CatNipped – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks for the tip on ClaritinD – I will most certainly try it. Patti

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This is my first vent here… I want to get off the Effexor I’ve been taking for depression for almost a year now.  I’ve been more stable than DP’s seen me to be in the past 8 years, in the last 6 months.  Unfortunately, in those last 6 months I also sleep about 12 hours a day, and occasionally I get this "Stoned" sensation where stuff gets blurry and I have trouble thinking of words or figuring out just where I am…I’ll wander and then snap out of my reverie like, two hours later, wondering where the time went. The stuff’s expensive as hell, I have no drug coverage, and there’s no way I can do a master’s thesis in September if I’m sleeping more than I’m awake. If I want back on flight operations, I have to lose the drugs that could affect my ability to control an aircraft. So today I’m at the doctor’s and he tells me that if I quit the stuff, I’m almost guaranteed to relapse. DP’s afraid I will, sometime when no one’s around to stop me from cutting my throat–or someone else’s. I’m in my 20s.  I don’t want to be on this crap for the rest of my life.  Hell, the concept of being stuck on drugs is one of the big reasons I left my depression untreated until I became a menace to people around me as well as myself.  I think I know the symptoms well enough–if I start inflicting injury on myself and viewing life through a red rage haze, it’s time to go back on the pills.  I was depressed, I think, since about age 4 or so, but during that time I only had two severe (ie, want-to-kill-myself) episodes, and those 8 years apart.  The minor rounds I could handle without chemical interference.  At that rate, it’d be 2013 before I needed pills again. That’s a lot of money and a lot of drug-free years. That red haze is starting to creep back a little, since the doc didn’t in any way suggest that this was a "for the rest of my life" kind of thing until just now.  I feel like I’ve gotten suckered into this situation, and that pisses me off. –Enfilade

Hi Enfilade, Effexor is a big time drug to be on for depression – it is usually used for major depression and even some psychotic disorders.  I understand that you want off of the medication because you feel good now – but remember, that is the medication helping you to feel better and control your depression. If you are wanting to try something that won’t turn you into a zombie, ask your doctor about weaning off of it, while being started on something else. If you are taken off of medication completely and you begin to relapse, you could spiral downward before a new drug takes effect (anti-depressants usually take 3-4 weeks before full effect is reached). The consequesnces of that far outweight the benefits of being "drug-free." Also, a relapse is usually worse once being taken off of a medication because of the major changes in the chemicals in your brain… Please be careful I know there is a stigma attached to being on medication for depression, but it is an illness…. Really think of the benefits of the medication vesus the possible results of being off of the medication. Talk to your doc first about switching to a different kind, one that still helps your symptoms, but with less side effects. Good luck

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 This is my first vent here…  I want to get off the Effexor I’ve been taking for depression for  almost a year now.  I’ve been more stable than DP’s seen me to be in  the past 8 years, in the last 6 months.  Unfortunately, in those last  6 months I also sleep about 12 hours a day, and occasionally I get  this "Stoned" sensation where stuff gets blurry and I have trouble  thinking of words or figuring out just where I am…I’ll wander and  then snap out of my reverie like, two hours later, wondering where the  time went.  The stuff’s expensive as hell, I have no drug coverage, and there’s no  way I can do a master’s thesis in September if I’m sleeping more than  I’m awake. If I want back on flight operations, I have to lose the  drugs that could affect my ability to control an aircraft.  So today I’m at the doctor’s and he tells me that if I quit the stuff,  I’m almost guaranteed to relapse.  DP’s afraid I will, sometime when no one’s around to stop me from  cutting my throat–or someone else’s.  I’m in my 20s.  I don’t want to be on this crap for the rest of my  life.  Hell, the concept of being stuck on drugs is one of the big  reasons I left my depression untreated until I became a menace to  people around me as well as myself.  I think I know the symptoms well enough–if I start inflicting injury on myself and viewing life through a red rage haze, it’s time to go back on the pills.  I was depressed, I think, since about age 4 or so, but during that time I only had two severe (ie, want-to-kill-myself) episodes, and those 8  years apart.  The minor rounds I could handle without chemical  interference.  At that rate, it’d be 2013 before I needed pills again.   That’s a lot of money and a lot of drug-free years.  That red haze is starting to creep back a little, since the doc didn’t  in any way suggest that this was a "for the rest of my life" kind of  thing until just now.  I feel like I’ve gotten suckered into this  situation, and that pisses me off.  –Enfilade Hi Fil, I have been on Effexor for about 3 years, and am now in the process of stepping down the dose in order to quit.  I was having some of the same symptoms as you – the feeling of ‘not being there’ is one major one, and the just not caring about things. Plus, I am one of the 5 to 10% that develop high blood pressure while taking it.  I finally told my doc that I WAS going to d/c this, with or without his help. He finally agreed, with the proviso that if I become depressed again I would tell him. It hasn’t been completely easy, but at least I am able to feel again. I hope you can get your dr. to take you off this, and that everything goes ok! Patti

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Question:

Has anybody out there had any experience with Effexor?  What were the side effects compared to say, Zoloft or Paxil?  I know all SSRI’s are different with everybody, but would just appreciate any info or experiences anybody’s had with Effexor.  Thanks! Sara

Hi Sara: I have been taking Effexor XR, 75mg, plus Topomax and klonipin, but the most I can are the side effects from the Effexor. At first, I had some problems with inomnia, but that lasted little. No problems with sexual side effects either. You might have to try taking it in the morning or evening, because it stimulates some, and keeps others awake. You might want to make sure you get a small dose of a benzo (klonipin) to help with any anxiety or sleeplessness you get at first. To be honest, physically, it doesn’t give me that same "depersonalization" like Zoloft, Prozac, or Paxil does. It’s also nowhere NEAR as stimulating to me as Welbutrin, which really made me anxious, grumpy, and I could never sleep. I have been reading in alot of Psychiatric Journals that 37.5mg of Effexor XR is a good dose to start off at, say for a week or so, as side effects then are almost nill. As I said, it’s really only any of the a.d.’s I can take that doesn’t cause really weird side effects. Like, I still feel like "me" on it, just helps keep up some of the energy, and keep my cool when needed. Just be careful with dose…starting at 75mg’s XR a day may be a little "too" stimulating. As I said, a benzo helps too with taking some of the edge off. Good luck… James — Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country.     —Mayor Marion Barry, Washington, D.C.

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have lessened my depression and reduced my tendencies to anxiety attacks. It’s hard to know if it’s the drugs, therapy or what though. DOug

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I believe Effexor XR is Effexor Extended Release..Anyways please don’t take my experience with Effexor XR as how it many effect you..It may help you out..Effexor XR within an hour of taking my very first dose of it I KNEW I was on a medication/drug..This has not happened before with me trying new Antidepressants..From there I was only able to sleep in 2 to 3 hour increments for a few weeks and then the next 2 weeks I had pure insomnia, which I think was hypomania..Needless to say I went off that med! Religion is for those who fear going to Hell and Spirituality is for those of us who have already been there!

Response:

Hi Sara… I just started Effexor XR yesterday. (I’m taking 37.5 mg in the morning for a week, then 75 mg in the morning thereafter.) I have previously taken Prozac, Paxil, Zoloft and Serzone, but always had side effects that caused me to discontinue them. In a couple weeks, I’ll probably be able to give you more information. The most common side effect I hear about Effexor is nausea, along with some nervousness and sexual problems. If anyone would care to compare notes on Effexor, just e-mail me! Ron in St. Louis – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Newsgroups: alt.support.anxiety-panic Lines: 6 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder03.news.aol.com Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Has anybody out there had any experience with Effexor?  What were the side effects compared to say, Zoloft or Paxil?  I know all SSRI’s are different with everybody, but would just appreciate any info or experiences anybody’s had with Effexor.  Thanks! Sara

Response:

Has anybody out there had any experience with Effexor?  What were the side effects compared to say, Zoloft or Paxil?  I know all SSRI’s are different with everybody, but would just appreciate any info or experiences anybody’s had with Effexor.  Thanks! Sara

Response:

Hi,      First I wanted to say,thanks for the help with my throat problem.I though there was something seriously wrong with me.Thanks for the support.Now,I have something to ask,and something to complain about.I went to see my psych today for the first time.First,she put me on Effexor XR,37mgs to start,then 75 and then 150.I wanted to know has anyone been on this before and was it helpful?Also,I took the MMPI test for the psych and she had the results today.She told me she feels as though I am exxagerating my situation.That it is nowhere near as bad as I claim it to be.Now,I thought going to a psych would help me and it took me a long time to get up the nerve to finally go out of my house and see one.I can’t believe that is the response I received.I am also applying for SSI disability because of this and she told me there is no way that she will help me with this case,and she doesn’t help any of her other patients with it either.She doesn’t feel as though it is a disability.What should I do??Has anyone gone through this with a psych before???Sorry about the length,but I am at my wits end,and I am only 22.

Response:

As far as the Effexor XR is concerned, I’ve been taking 300mg for several months and it has been the best AD for me personally.  Now, keep in mind the individuality of AD’s is huge, and it’s quite normal to go through a process of changing meds/dosages until you find the one that works.  It can seem tedious, but it’s worth it.  I hope Effexor works for you as well as it does for me, I found it does take the full 4-6 weeks to really help. Best, -Alan ps – I think everyone with PD feels worse then perhaps in reality they are, that they are more pathetic in dealing with things then they is true.  But it’s also important to remember that’s part of the territory, and how we see ourselves plays a lot on how we feel, consciously and subconsciously.  It’s something that can be helped a lot with therapy.  Also, don’t take the results of the MMPI to seriously, and your pdoc shouldn’t either.  She may also be rigid about not helping you with disability because many feel that this is in fact going to counter condition you, to hurt progress and therapy – that sense of increasing security and self-confidence.  I’m sure if you really wanted the disability, there would be other docs that would help, it’s a matter of their preference in approaching the condition. BTW – I am only 21 myself…hang in there, it does get better, even when it seems it never can  :)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi,      First I wanted to say,thanks for the help with my throat problem.I though there was something seriously wrong with me.Thanks for the support.Now,I have something to ask,and something to complain about.I went to see my psych today for the first time.First,she put me on Effexor XR,37mgs to start,then 75 and then 150.I wanted to know has anyone been on this before and was it helpful?Also,I took the MMPI test for the psych and she had the results today.She told me she feels as though I am exxagerating my situation.That it is nowhere near as bad as I claim it to be.Now,I thought going to a psych would help me and it took me a long time to get up the nerve to finally go out of my house and see one.I can’t believe that is the response I received.I am also applying for SSI disability because of this and she told me there is no way that she will help me with this case,and she doesn’t help any of her other patients with it either.She doesn’t feel as though it is a disability.What should I do??Has anyone gone through this with a psych before???Sorry about the length,but I am at my wits end,and I am only 22.

Response:

Sorry to hear that your psychiatrist wasn’t a little more compassionate in the way she delivered the information to you, but I think in many ways she probably has the correct idea.  First, as someone else mentioned, you probably are experiencing things as worse than they really are (this is sort of what panic disorder is all about – we perceive uncomfortable body sensations as dangerous when they are not). Second, as for the disability issue, as a psychiatry (and medicine) resident, I am always reluctant to recommend someone for disability. Studies suggest that people have less motivation to recover once they receive disability.  Also, people who are seeking disability usually don’t recover as well.  You are young and have an excellent chance of recovery from your problems – hang in there. I also think effexor is a reasonable choice for a medicine and she is dosing it appropriately.  The specific medicine was probably chosen based on your specific descriptions to her, as well as her experience with various medications. Good luck, Rick http://www.med-psych.net/links/Illnesses/Anxiety_Disorders/ Anxiety Links – view them, rate them, add your own! Before you buy.

Response:

I am always reluctant to recommend someone for disability.

and if they cannot work how will they pay for your services let alone food-these things as necessary as they are are still lack the motivational impact as one would think-if one is backed into a corner has no out no way to have any gainful productive existance then their suicidal tendencies go through the roof-no more patient no more ssdi recipient no more anxiety no more problem-the judgement call for collecting assistance isn’t dependent on the values of the shrink but of the patient-if anxiety were but a mere exageration then this is tantemount to saying snap out of it it’s all in your head. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Studies suggest that people have less motivation to recover once they receive disability.  Also, people who are seeking disability usually don’t recover as well.  You are young and have an excellent chance of recovery from your problems – hang in there. I also think effexor is a reasonable choice for a medicine and she is dosing it appropriately.  The specific medicine was probably chosen based on your specific descriptions to her, as well as her experience with various medications. Good luck, Rick http://www.med-psych.net/links/Illnesses/Anxiety_Disorders/ Anxiety Links – view them, rate them, add your own! Before you buy.

I don’t know where you get your studies frm but this is the same logic that our great fathers in washington have used to get the malingerers off the role call-what has happened is we have a false set of economic indicators and psychiatricaly impaired homeless people in a state of limbo with no place to go-who’s responsibility is it-the impaired patient or the welfare system of a fair goverment. I disagree with you and this posters shrink-if she is incapable of work and chooses to approach assistance then I would support her and her choice-when she has established the criterea of our jointly reached goals in therapy she can resume her own financial responsibility and she no doubt will LM

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi,     First I wanted to say,thanks for the help with my throat problem.I though there was something seriously wrong with me.Thanks for the support.Now,I have something to ask,and something to complain about.I went to see my psych today for the first time.First,she put me on Effexor XR,37mgs to start,then 75 and then 150.I wanted to know has anyone been on this before and was it helpful?Also,I took the MMPI test for the psych and she had the results today.She told me she feels as though I am exxagerating my situation.That it is nowhere near as bad as I claim it to be.Now,I thought going to a psych would help me and it took me a long time to get up the nerve to finally go out of my house and see one.I can’t believe that is the response I received.I am also applying for SSI disability because of this and she told me there is no way that she will help me with this case,and she doesn’t help any of her other patients with it either.She doesn’t feel as though it is a disability.What should I do??Has anyone gone through this with a psych before???Sorry about the length,but I am at my wits end,and I am only 22.

Hi! I’m sorry she put you through that.  I haven’t been in that situation, but I’d say get a new pDoc!  She sounds very insensitive and you don’t need that right now.  You’re young and you can beat this thing, but with help from a pDoc.  Not criticism from one.  Please let us know how you’re doing and if you find another doctor.  You’ll be in my thoughts. Di

Response:

Sorry to hear that your psychiatrist wasn’t a little more compassionate in the way she delivered the information to you, but I think in many ways she probably has the correct idea.  First, as someone else mentioned, you probably are experiencing things as worse than they really are (this is sort of what panic disorder is all about – we perceive uncomfortable body sensations as dangerous when they are not).

Sure. But that *is* our problem, that is what is *bad* about it. It’s called Panic Disorder and it is as bad as the sufferer feels it is. And for those symptoms we need meds and therapy and it can be so debilitating that people can lose their marriages, their jobs, their friends and their freedom to move around outside their house. Is that bad enough? Even if all it is is *cognitve distortion* then that can be *terrible*. You sound like those people saying: "Get over it, your fear is irrational." Yes, we know that. That is what the probem is…. Second, as for the disability issue, as a psychiatry (and medicine) resident, I am always reluctant to recommend someone for disability. Studies suggest that people have less motivation to recover once they receive disability.  Also, people who are seeking disability usually don’t recover as well.  You are young and have an excellent chance of recovery from your problems – hang in there.

I can’t judge from here whether the original poster should be put on disability or not but neither can you. As a psychiatry resident you might try to not patronize people or you will make as bad a psychiatrist as the total idiot we’re talking about here. Actually I find this post not in keeping with your earlier posts here which I liked. Bad day? Philip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – http://www.med-psych.net/links/Illnesses/Anxiety_Disorders/ Anxiety Links – view them, rate them, add your own! Before you buy.

Response:

I did not mean to sound unsympathetic, but it appears I did. Disability is a controversial subject, and I may disagree with some people on this one – and my opinions may change over time as we have better evidence about the pros and cons of placing someone on permanent disability.  I in no way mean to imply that people are not severely impaired by anxiety disorders or other mental illness.  The question is whether they are unable to have employment of any type. the judgement call for collecting assistance isn’t dependent on the values of the shrink but of the patient-if anxiety were but a mere exageration then this is tantemount to saying snap out of it it’s all in your

head. I did not mean to imply that anxiety is a mere exageration or that someone can just snap out of it, because I know and understand that the suffering is very real and often very difficult to overcome.  We are obviously dealing with a very touchy subject here between doctors and sufferers, and I want to help resolve this problem, not make it worse. I also don’t believe that disability should be determined by a patient –  there are too many people who would take advantage of the system (I am not saying that people with panic disorder try to take advantage).  I also am firmly convinced that permanent disability is not appropriate for a young person with a relatively short duration of panic disorder. I do take care of people with anxiety disorders that I have on disability, but it is only after they have failed usual treatments. Studies suggest that people have less motivation to recover once they receive disability.  Also, people who are seeking disability usually don’t recover as well.  You are young and have an excellent chance of recovery from your problems – hang in there. I don’t know where you get your studies frm

Rather than get into a debate about studies, as I know very well that people can get studies to say just about anything, I am assigning myself the project of reviewing this data.  I will try to offer as unbiased as possible of a summary on this, including references and abstracts, and then post it on my site.  As I am fairly busy, this may take me some time, but I think it is an important issue for me to understand better.  Hopefully other people will benefit as well to better understand why some doctors are reluctant to place someone on disability. I disagree with you and this posters shrink-if she is incapable of work and chooses to approach assistance then I would support her and her choice-when she has established the criterea of our jointly reached goals in therapy she can resume her own financial responsibility

The problems I have had is that as people are close to reaching their goals, the talk of returning to work often sends them into a downward spiral.  The whole idea of CBT is that you need exposure in order to overcome fears.  Placing someone on disability often reinforces avoidance behavior.  It takes very careful judgment to determine when disability is approriate or not, as the action of offering someone disability has large ramifications on illness behavior. I really don’t want to get into an argument over this, as I have an extreme amount of respect for your knowledge.  I genuinely want to better understand this issue. As a medicine and psychiatry residenct I have seen many instances where I don’t know whether an illness justifies placing someone on disability.  The usual illness I see this with is fibromyalgia.  The most interesting case I saw was a guy with severe antisocial personality disorder.  His girlfriend could not understand why he did not qualify for disability, since part of his "illness" is that he can not maintain employment (this is actually one of the DSM IV criteria for ASPD).  Should all sociopaths get SSDI?  No way in my mind, but if you want to view ASPD as an illness, then they should all get it. Again, I am not trying to compare ASPD to panic disorder, I am just trying to demonstrate that disability issues are something very unclear in my mind, despite my attempts at trying to clarify this issue in the past. The bottom line is, this discussion is only tangently relevant to the original posters issue of the doctor not wanting to place her on disability.  I think what is more important is for the original poster to have a better dialogue with her physician, and if the doctor can not do that, she should consider another doctor. Hopefully I won’t upset too many more people, as it seems I struck a nerve (no pun intended) Rick http://www.med-psych.net/links/Illnesses/Anxiety_Disorders/ Anxiety links – view them, rate them, add your own Before you buy.

Response:

–

Sorry to hear that your psychiatrist wasn’t a little more compassionate in the way she delivered the information to you, but I think in many ways she probably has the correct idea.  First, as someone else mentioned, you probably are experiencing things as worse than they really are (this is sort of what panic disorder is all about – we perceive uncomfortable body sensations as dangerous when they are not).

Well isn’t that the part of the big problem with P/A?  IMO this Pdoc is an ass. Second, as for the disability issue, as a psychiatry (and medicine) resident, I am always reluctant to recommend someone for disability. Studies suggest that people have less motivation to recover once they receive disability.  Also, people who are seeking disability usually don’t recover as well.  You are young and have an excellent chance of recovery from your problems – hang in there.

This is rediculous.  Maybe people who receive SSD don’t recover as well because they are the more severe cases.  SSD is a way to help you get a small (and I emphasize "small") bit of income and a way to feed yourself and feel as if you are contributing to the household.  If you feel you are able to work then there are ways to keep SSD while on a trying to get employed again. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I also think effexor is a reasonable choice for a medicine and she is dosing it appropriately.  The specific medicine was probably chosen based on your specific descriptions to her, as well as her experience with various medications. Good luck, Rick http://www.med-psych.net/links/Illnesses/Anxiety_Disorders/ Anxiety Links – view them, rate them, add your own! Before you buy.

Love Cathy P.H.O.B.I.A. People Helping Others Become Independent Again Off-line Self Help Support Group, NJ http://community.nj.com/cc/phobia Anxiety Treatment Options http://www.members.tripod.com/~PhobiaGroup/index.html

Response:

First off Prince, I would find another doctor asap.  She obviously not only doesn’t know what she’s talking about but she doesn’t have a heart either.  Sounds like she has a "goddess" complex.  Secondly, EffexorXR is an excellent med for panic and anxiety.  I started off with the same low dose and weaned up to 150mg. which I’ve been on for over 8 months now.  It has changed my life.  I honestly cannot believe she said this was not a disability.  May she have one hugh panic attack that lasts all day and then we’ll see her change her evaluation real fast.  I know it’s discouraging and a pain to have to go through seeing another doctor, but you deserve the best.  I had to see 9 before I found the right one.  And it cost me a bundle, but it was well worth it in the end.  BTW, Effexor XR works pretty fast, so you should be seeing good results pretty soon. Take care and let us know how you are feeling.  If you need to e-mail me with any questions about the Effexor, please feel free to do so any time. Love, Rita  :) Hi,      First I wanted to say,thanks for the help with my throat problem.I though there was something seriously wrong with me.Thanks for the support.Now,I have something to ask,and something to complain about.I went to see my psych today for the first time.First,she put me on Effexor XR,37mgs to start,then 75 and then 150.I wanted to know has anyone been on this before and was it helpful?Also,I took the MMPI test for the psych and she had the results today.She told me she feels as though I am exxagerating my

situation.That it is – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – nowhere near as bad as I claim it to be.Now,I thought going to a psych would help me and it took me a long time to get up the nerve to finally go out of my house and see one.I can’t believe that is the response I received.I am also applying for SSI disability because of this and she told me there is no way that she will help me with this case,and she doesn’t help any of her other patients with it either.She doesn’t feel as though it is a disability.What should I do??Has anyone gone through this with a psych before???Sorry about the length,but I am at my wits end,and I am only 22.

Before you buy.

Response:

Thank you Margrove. Love, Rita – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am always reluctant to recommend someone for disability. and if they cannot work how will they pay for your services let alone food-these things as necessary as they are are still lack the motivational impact as one would think-if one is backed into a corner has no out no way to have any gainful productive existance then their suicidal tendencies go through the roof-no more patient no more ssdi recipient no more anxiety no more problem-the judgement call for collecting assistance isn’t dependent on the values of the shrink but of the patient-if anxiety were but a mere exageration then this is tantemount to saying snap out of it it’s all in your head. Studies suggest that people have less motivation to recover once they receive disability.  Also, people who are seeking disability usually don’t recover as well.  You are young and have an excellent chance of recovery from your problems – hang in there. I also think effexor is a reasonable choice for a medicine and she is dosing it appropriately.  The specific medicine was probably chosen based on your specific descriptions to her, as well as her experience with various medications. Good luck, Rick http://www.med-psych.net/links/Illnesses/Anxiety_Disorders/ Anxiety Links – view them, rate them, add your own! Before you buy. I don’t know where you get your studies frm but this is the same logic that our great fathers in washington have used to get the malingerers off the role call-what has happened is we have a false set of economic indicators and psychiatricaly impaired homeless people in a state of limbo with no place to go-who’s responsibility is it-the impaired patient or the welfare system of a fair goverment. I disagree with you and this posters shrink-if she is incapable of work and chooses to approach assistance then I would support her and her choice-when she has established the criterea of our jointly reached goals in therapy she can resume her own financial responsibility and she no doubt will LM

Before you buy.

Response:

Is a secret agent who is frightened of jumping out of an airplane at night over enemy territory suffering from ‘panic disorder’?  (Or, as a former paratrooper told me, suffering from ‘being sensible’?) See: http://www.offmsg.connectfree.co.uk/psychiatry/shrink1.htm I nominate the author of this (genuine) report for Total Idiot Psychiatrist of the 20th Century.  All I need is his (or her) name. Mingus. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sorry to hear that your psychiatrist wasn’t a little more compassionate in the way she delivered the information to you, but I think in many ways she probably has the correct idea.  First, as someone else mentioned, you probably are experiencing things as worse than they really are (this is sort of what panic disorder is all about – we perceive uncomfortable body sensations as dangerous when they are not). Sure. But that *is* our problem, that is what is *bad* about it. It’s called Panic Disorder and it is as bad as the sufferer feels it is. And for those symptoms we need meds and therapy and it can be so debilitating that people can lose their marriages, their jobs, their friends and their freedom to move around outside their house. Is that bad enough? Even if all it is is *cognitve distortion* then that can be *terrible*. You sound like those people saying: "Get over it, your fear is irrational." Yes, we know that. That is what the probem is…. Second, as for the disability issue, as a psychiatry (and medicine) resident, I am always reluctant to recommend someone for disability. Studies suggest that people have less motivation to recover once they receive disability.  Also, people who are seeking disability usually don’t recover as well.  You are young and have an excellent chance of recovery from your problems – hang in there. I can’t judge from here whether the original poster should be put on disability or not but neither can you. As a psychiatry resident you might try to not patronize people or you will make as bad a psychiatrist as the total idiot we’re talking about here. Actually I find this post not in keeping with your earlier posts here which I liked. Bad day? Philip http://www.med-psych.net/links/Illnesses/Anxiety_Disorders/ Anxiety Links – view them, rate them, add your own! Before you buy.

Before you buy.

Response:

Is a secret agent who is frightened of jumping out of an airplane at night over enemy territory suffering from ‘panic disorder’?  (Or, as a former paratrooper told me, suffering from ‘being sensible’?)

Anyone who is not frightened in such a situation is crazy ) Anxiety is a natural warning sign, we need it to warn us that danger is coming our way and to react adequately. An anxiety disorder means having anxiety without any danger being around. It’s inappropriate fight-or-flight response, the CNS out fo whack, neurons firing randomly…. Philip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sorry to hear that your psychiatrist wasn’t a little more compassionate in the way she delivered the information to you, but I think in many ways she probably has the correct idea.  First, as someone else mentioned, you probably are experiencing things as worse than they really are (this is sort of what panic disorder is all about – we perceive uncomfortable body sensations as dangerous when they are not). Sure. But that *is* our problem, that is what is *bad* about it. It’s called Panic Disorder and it is as bad as the sufferer feels it is. And for those symptoms we need meds and therapy and it can be so debilitating that people can lose their marriages, their jobs, their friends and their freedom to move around outside their house. Is that bad enough? Even if all it is is *cognitve distortion* then that can be *terrible*. You sound like those people saying: "Get over it, your fear is irrational." Yes, we know that. That is what the probem is…. Second, as for the disability issue, as a psychiatry (and medicine) resident, I am always reluctant to recommend someone for disability. Studies suggest that people have less motivation to recover once they receive disability.  Also, people who are seeking disability usually don’t recover as well.  You are young and have an excellent chance of recovery from your problems – hang in there. I can’t judge from here whether the original poster should be put on disability or not but neither can you. As a psychiatry resident you might try to not patronize people or you will make as bad a psychiatrist as the total idiot we’re talking about here. Actually I find this post not in keeping with your earlier posts here which I liked. Bad day? Philip http://www.med-psych.net/links/Illnesses/Anxiety_Disorders/ Anxiety Links – view them, rate them, add your own! Before you buy. Before you buy.

Response:

Hi,      First I wanted to say,thanks for the help with my throat problem.I though there was something seriously wrong with me.Thanks for the support.Now,I have something to ask,and something to complain about.I went to see my psych today for the first time.First,she put me on Effexor XR,37mgs to start,then 75 and then 150.I wanted to know has anyone been on this before and was it helpful?Also,I took the MMPI test for the psych and she had the results today.She told me she feels as though I am exxagerating my

situation.That it is – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – nowhere near as bad as I claim it to be.Now,I thought going to a psych would help me and it took me a long time to get up the nerve to finally go out of my house and see one.I can’t believe that is the response I received.I am also applying for SSI disability because of this and she told me there is no way that she will help me with this case,and she doesn’t help any of her other patients with it either.She doesn’t feel as though it is a disability.What should I do??Has anyone gone through this with a psych before???Sorry about the length,but I am at my wits end,and I am only 22.

Prince, I am so sorry to hear of your Dr.s apparent lack of compassion.  My husband had one like that and we promptly FIRED HIM and found a MUCH better Dr. I am on Effexor XR and my current dosage is 225 mg/day.  It has done wonders for me. (((((((((((((HUGS))))))))))))) and keep your chin up!!!!  Let us know how you are doing!!!!!! Kindest Regards, Kkkkkkkkatie — "A word to the wise ain’t necessary.  It’s the stupid who need the advice." —Will Rogers Before you buy.

Response:

Hi Hadley! Personally, effexor did wonders for my anxiety!  I had a few side effects to begin with (increased nervousness, upset stomach), but as the past posts have stated, they do tend to go away…. good luck! Janine

Response:

I am wondering what if any effect this AD has on anxiety. I am not familiar with SNRI’s, wether or not they have any impact on panic disorder and anxiety disorder. TIA

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:I am wondering what if any effect this AD has on anxiety. I am not familiar :with SNRI’s, wether or not they have any impact on panic disorder and :anxiety disorder. TIA Dear Hadley, All antidepressants have the potential to "temporarily" increase anxiety during the weaning process. The way to minimize this is by starting at a low dose like 37.5mgs and to increase the dose slowly, every week or so or at a pace that is comfortable to you. It also helps to use a benzo such as xanax to tame any side-effects and/or increased anxiety you "may" experience.  Take care and good luck!~ Jackie ~*~Forget not that the earth delights to feel your bare feet and the winds long to play with your hair~*~     ~Kahlil Gibran~

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I am wondering what if any effect this AD has on anxiety. I am not familiar with SNRI’s, wether or not they have any impact on panic disorder and anxiety disorder. TIA

Can be very effective if started at 37.5 mg and raised to 75 mg after a week etc. Potential side effects are much like Paxil’s but YMMV. Philip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

Hi, my Dr. is having me try Effexor XR for depression but I also suffer from anxiety.  Curious if any of you had any experiences with this drug.  I see anxiety is a possible side affect, that’s why I am asking. Thanks, Tono

Response:

Hi, my Dr. is having me try Effexor XR for depression but I also suffer from anxiety.  Curious if any of you had any experiences with this drug.  I see anxiety is a possible side affect, that’s why I am asking. Thanks, Tono

I agree with Dan 100%.   I’ve been on Effexor XR 150 mg., plus XanaxXR, for over two years and it has completely changed my life for the best.  But IMO, going on slowly with a benzo added is the way to go.   I started with 37.5mg. for a week or so (I don’t remember how long, but I know we took our time).   To be honest, it didn’t work overnight, but each week was a little better than the last until I hit my top dose and stayed on that for awhile. Then the transformation was incredible. Other p-docs only gave me an anti-depressant alone and I had terrible side-effects, my anxiety never really went away.   The combination of the two was the wonder combo for me.  I expect to be on this for the rest of my life, God willing. xxoo Rita

Response:

Hi, I’m new here and apoligize if this has already been covered. I suffer from major depression and have an overwhelming since of hoplessness. I’ve been taking Effexor XR 75mg 1x day for about a year. This seems to help, but only slightly. I have major dfficulty with sleep. Any suggestions on the best time to take this medication would be appreciated. Thanks, Jeff

Response:

I am new here too, Jeff so I do not know if it has been covered but I will gladly share my own experience. First, tell your doctor. I take 3 75mg pills a day. Your doc might have to up your dosage. I had the the same trouble of not sleeping. My body would get tired but my brain would not shut off. I was told to take the Effexor early in the morning as soon as I woke up. That helps some. My doctor also placed me Trazadone at night and that combination does the trick. I can sleep like a log. Trazadone is not habit forming. I hope that helps, and welcome to the group. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, I’m new here and apoligize if this has already been covered. I suffer from major depression and have an overwhelming since of hoplessness. I’ve been taking Effexor XR 75mg 1x day for about a year. This seems to help, but only slightly. I have major dfficulty with sleep. Any suggestions on the best time to take this medication would be appreciated. Thanks, Jeff

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-I am new here too, Jeff so I do not know if it has been covered but I -will gladly share my own experience. First, tell your doctor. I take 3 -75mg pills a day. Your doc might have to up your dosage. I had the the -same trouble of not sleeping. My body would get tired but my brain -would not shut off. I was told to take the Effexor early in the -morning as soon as I woke up. That helps some. My doctor also placed -me Trazadone at night and that combination does the trick. I can sleep -like a log. Trazadone is not habit forming. I hope that helps, and -welcome to the group. What’s the max dosage?

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My, aren’t you a great help to someone in need. I’d hate to know someone like yourself in real life. Imogen

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – sugar pills or better yet exercise Hi, I’m new here and apoligize if this has already been covered. I suffer from major depression and have an overwhelming since of hoplessness. I’ve been taking Effexor XR 75mg 1x day for about a year. This seems to help, but only slightly. I have major dfficulty with sleep. Any suggestions on the best time to take this medication would be appreciated. Thanks, Jeff

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Study after study shows that anti depressants work no better and sugar pills.

Idiot. — Regards, .

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Hi JJ, I am taking 150MG 1x a day (Effexor XR) and also taking Risperdal 2mg at night for sleep.  I sleep like a log. — John T. May Don’t sweat the small stuff…

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, I’m new here and apoligize if this has already been covered. I suffer from major depression and have an overwhelming since of hoplessness. I’ve been taking Effexor XR 75mg 1x day for about a year. This seems to help, but only slightly. I have major dfficulty with sleep. Any suggestions on the best time to take this medication would be appreciated. Thanks, Jeff

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What does anybody think about this drug; has anybody had any good luck with drug?

I have been taking 75mg Effexor XR since January for anxiety/depression.  It is important to give the medication 4-6 weeks to take effect and for me the side effects of dry mouth, sleep pattern disturbance, light-headedness and elevated blood pressure took even longer to subside. After stabilizing on the Effexor, I have decided to stay on it because of its effectiveness in treating the anxiety.  The nice thing about the Effexor is that you don’t notice that you are on it other than the alleviation of the anxiety and depression. I only write to encourage those starting the medication to continue with it despite what feels like a worsening of the anxiety initially. Many discontinue because of the bad initial side effects. I still get the vivid dreams….they’re OK. Andrew R. Before you buy.

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Thanks your all your input!!!!   W & C

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What does anybody think about this drug; has anybody had any good luck with drug?                             Also I’ve got my Zanax back 2 fives a day!! Wild & Crazy Hi Wild!  I have been on Effexor for 5 months at 300mg and am not complaining.  You can see mine and many other peoples responses to this same question in the recent thread ‘Effexor’ as well…a lot of people asking it these days Best, -Alan — Alan Derrick Before you buy.

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Hi Wild, I’ve been on EffexorXR since January and it literally changed my life.  First AD that I had no side effects from, which is a miracle in itself. And it worked pretty fast for me.  I also take XanaxXR twice daily…just a small amount.  The combination of meds is working so well, I don’t want to ever stop taking them.  And I used to be phobic about taking meds, but no more. Hope Effexor works as well for you. Love, Rita What does anybody think about this drug; has anybody had any good luck with drug?                             Also I’ve got my Zanax back 2 fives a day!! Wild & Crazy

Before you buy.

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What does anybody think about this drug; has anybody had any good luck with drug?                             Also I’ve got my Zanax back 2 fives a day!! Wild & Crazy

Hi wild and crazy ! I am on Effexor XR(time release) since September of 1999. I started with the sampler pack-one week at 37.5 and one week at 75mg. I was put on 150 after those 2 weeks and about 4 weeks into it I notice a positive change with me. But I wasn’t comfortable where I was at. I was still having break through anxiety and depression. In December, my gp raised my Effexor to 300mg. Within the week I started I improved my emotional outlook and well being tremendously. I am still on the 300-that is 2-150mg capsules per day. I take mine in the morning with breakfast. Do not take on an empty stomach. My only side effects were dry mouth, vivid dreams(whoppers) and head pressure. They eventual went away. I have Ativan as per needed now and I haven’t taken any for about 4 -5 weeks now. I will take it if I need it but I also have my coping skills that I learned, to help me get through my anxiety and panic times. Not my everyday stresses but my actual panic. I would tell people that it is worth a try and to stay on it for at least 4 weeks to see any benefit from the Effexor. Xanax is good too and only .5 twice a day is a small amount so do not worry about getting hooked on it-you won’t. YOu do the best you can with what you have. Take the meds, even if you have to for a long time.So what? You have to take care of you. And you comes first!!! good luck and email me with any questions.Julie Before you buy.

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What does anybody think about this drug; has anybody had any good luck with drug?                             Also I’ve got my Zanax back 2 fives a day!! Wild & Crazy

I have had anxiety/depression my whole life, and tried almost all the ADs around except for some of the newer ones.  But I have been on Effexor for a year now.  It is the best AD I have ever used.  I think it is so effective because it works on two major chemicals (Seretonin and norephenephrine) and alittle on dopamine.  Anyway I was really depressed about a year ago and started taking it.  Around the middle of the third week, all of a sudden I started to feel this sense of calm and the depression just kind of lifted. It was the most peculiar thing.  Anyway, I think it is the best that I have tried by a long shot. Hope it works for you. John

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What does anybody think about this drug; has anybody had any good luck with drug?                             Also I’ve got my Zanax back 2 fives a day!! Wild & Crazy

Hi Wild!  I have been on Effexor for 5 months at 300mg and am not complaining.  You can see mine and many other peoples responses to this same question in the recent thread ‘Effexor’ as well…a lot of people asking it these days Best, -Alan — Alan Derrick Before you buy.

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What does anybody think about this drug; has anybody had any good luck with drug?                             Also I’ve got my Zanax back 2 fives a day!! Wild & Crazy

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What does anybody think about this drug; has anybody had any good luck with drug?                            Also I’ve got my Zanax back 2 fives a day!! Wild & Crazy

Hi Wild, From what I have seen of posters on Effexor, it seems like a really decent med for anxiety and depression. It can`t hurt to try, and I hope it helps you!! Good for you in getting your Xanax back, I know that med helped you alot. Take care and feel better soon!!!! Jackie

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The Dr. just put my husband on this today, can anyone tell me ANYTHING about it?? How effective it is?  (He has depression and general anxiety)  Side effects?  Alcohol yes/no??? I appreciate ANY information!!!!! Thanks much!!!!

Here’s the web site:  http://www.effexorxr.com Don’t go searching the internet to put false ideas in your head. Take it one day at a time and report any side effects to the prescribing doctor. It is an antidepressant so it should help with the depression once he reaches a therapeutic dose. The doc usually starts you out on a low dose so you can gradually adjust to the med with minimal sensations that can lead to anxious thoughts and then anxiety. I personally think benzodiazepines, CNS depressants, are the best immediate treatment for people who have anxiety disorders.  A good therapist can also help a person analyze their anxious thoughts and give them a new perspective on how to view the world.  A lot of anxious thoughts are purely irrational and can be looked at and tossed away by a rational mind.  Get a copy of the book – "The Guide To Rational Living" by Albert Ellis.  www.rebt.org Don’t Worry, Be Happy  :  ) Tony

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Yeah, I’m thinking I’ll ask a dr. and maybe even call a different pharmacy just to see if they say the same thing……

i suggest calling around til ya get the answer you like.. that’s always my MO. xoxoxo ~tanya

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Effexor XR worked very well for me for years. I have depression and Panic Disorder. http://www.rxlist.com/cgi/generic/venlafax_ids.htm It can be difficult tapering onto SNRIs. My anxiety symptoms worsened initially.I increased my Xanax to help counteract these side effects. Meryl i’ve been taking effexor xr for a while. now my pdoc has prescribed a higher dose. it’s only been a few days since i increased the dose, and i’m definitely feeling more anxious right now. i hope i’ll feel better in a week or two. And I know any doc is going to say "don’t drink!!!", but that’s not realistic for him.  We go out to dinner a couple times per week and he has a couple of drinks, he doesn’t get drunk, but has 2-3 (he’s a pretty decent sized guy).  BUT there are occassion he has WAY too much, New Years, Stag’s, etc. we went on a camping trip a month ago and he got totally sh-tfaced, etc.  I want to know he won’t die on those occassions.  I called a pharmacist last night just to see what they’d say, she scared the crap out of me, she said he shouldn’t drink AT ALL and that too much alcohol would repress his heart to the point it would stop beating.  She flat out said "he’ll die if he drinks too much". Now I’m freaking out!!!!???

From the link I have given. *Alcohol Although Effexor has not been shown to increase the impairment of mental and motor skills caused by alcohol, patients should be advised to avoid alcohol while taking Effexor.* I still enjoyed my wine and I am still here. JMO Meryl

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – And I know any doc is going to say "don’t drink!!!", but that’s not realistic for him.  We go out to dinner a couple times per week and he has a couple of drinks, he doesn’t get drunk, but has 2-3 (he’s a pretty decent sized guy).  BUT there are occassion he has WAY too much, New Years, Stag’s, etc. we went on a camping trip a month ago and he got totally sh-tfaced, etc.  I want to know he won’t die on those occassions.  I called a pharmacist last night just to see what they’d say, she scared the crap out of me, she said he shouldn’t drink AT ALL and that too much alcohol would repress his heart to the point it would stop beating.  She flat out said "he’ll die if he drinks too much". Now I’m freaking out!!!!??? since a pharmacist said it, i’d believe it. you could talk to a doctor for a second opinion. i’d better watch my own drinking now, i guess.

Yeah, I’m thinking I’ll ask a dr. and maybe even call a different pharmacy just to see if they say the same thing……

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Thanks for the input.  I guess I must not be as "computer savvy" as I like to think, how did all of these old posts get hooked onto the original message I posted????

Took me a few minutes to figure out why you’re puzzled, because all I see is your original post plus Meryl’s reply.  Then I noticed that you’re using Google to post. Google sorts by subject line.  All posts with with specific subject "Effexor XR" are going to be grouped together, as if it was a single thread.  So when you read the thread in Google Groups, it looks like it started by in 1999 because someone else used the same topic line. Maybe someone else knows a way around this.  A regular newreader would be better, though. Fig

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And I know any doc is going to say "don’t drink!!!", but that’s not realistic for him.  We go out to dinner a couple times per week and he has a couple of drinks, he doesn’t get drunk, but has 2-3 (he’s a pretty decent sized guy).  BUT there are occassion he has WAY too much, New Years, Stag’s, etc. we went on a camping trip a month ago and he got totally sh-tfaced, etc.  I want to know he won’t die on those occassions.  I called a pharmacist last night just to see what they’d say, she scared the crap out of me, she said he shouldn’t drink AT ALL and that too much alcohol would repress his heart to the point it would stop beating.  She flat out said "he’ll die if he drinks too much". Now I’m freaking out!!!!???

since a pharmacist said it, i’d believe it. you could talk to a doctor for a second opinion. i’d better watch my own drinking now, i guess.

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she said he shouldn’t drink AT ALL and that too much alcohol would repress his heart to the point it would stop beating.  She flat out said "he’ll die if he drinks too much".

i’m no doctor but i do believe when your heart stops beating that death is a common side effect.  so maybe she’s right. Now I’m freaking out!!!!???

why?  you can’t control what he does, if it gives ya the heebie jeebies, and he’s bound and determined to continue behavior that freaks you out, well…. my concluson would be "dude doesn’t care a holy fuck about me to put me in a position of freakin out for a few drinks".. and i’d be out the door in about 3 hours… or however long it took me ta pack my shit, or go thru the aggravation of gettin him out.. (which is more difficult cuz then ya gotta get the police involved and crap.. and i say take the easy way out) .  you gotta choice, deal with it and stay freaked out cuz you "LOVVVVE HIMMMMM" or hit the proverbial road.   i find it easy as hell to leave people that have intolerable behavior, no matter how close i am to em, i guess i’m justah cold cold bitch.. but that’s my advice.. and i kinda like it.  nobody else will, but i couldn’t give a good goddam. xoxoxoxoxo ~tanya

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Effexor XR worked very well for me for years. I have depression and Panic Disorder. http://www.rxlist.com/cgi/generic/venlafax_ids.htm It can be difficult tapering onto SNRIs. My anxiety symptoms worsened initially.I increased my Xanax to help counteract these side effects. Meryl i’ve been taking effexor xr for a while. now my pdoc has prescribed a higher dose. it’s only been a few days since i increased the dose, and i’m definitely feeling more anxious right now. i hope i’ll feel better in a week or two.

And I know any doc is going to say "don’t drink!!!", but that’s not realistic for him.  We go out to dinner a couple times per week and he has a couple of drinks, he doesn’t get drunk, but has 2-3 (he’s a pretty decent sized guy).  BUT there are occassion he has WAY too much, New Years, Stag’s, etc. we went on a camping trip a month ago and he got totally sh-tfaced, etc.  I want to know he won’t die on those occassions.  I called a pharmacist last night just to see what they’d say, she scared the crap out of me, she said he shouldn’t drink AT ALL and that too much alcohol would repress his heart to the point it would stop beating.  She flat out said "he’ll die if he drinks too much". Now I’m freaking out!!!!???

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Effexor XR worked very well for me for years. I have depression and Panic Disorder. http://www.rxlist.com/cgi/generic/venlafax_ids.htm It can be difficult tapering onto SNRIs. My anxiety symptoms worsened initially.I increased my Xanax to help counteract these side effects. Meryl

i’ve been taking effexor xr for a while. now my pdoc has prescribed a higher dose. it’s only been a few days since i increased the dose, and i’m definitely feeling more anxious right now. i hope i’ll feel better in a week or two.

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The Dr. just put my husband on this today, can anyone tell me ANYTHING about it?? How effective it is?  (He has depression and general anxiety)  Side effects?  Alcohol yes/no??? I appreciate ANY information!!!!! Thanks much!!!!

Effexor XR worked very well for me for years. I have depression and Panic Disorder. http://www.rxlist.com/cgi/generic/venlafax_ids.htm It can be difficult tapering onto SNRIs. My anxiety symptoms worsened initially.I increased my Xanax to help counteract these side effects. Meryl

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The Dr. just put my husband on this today, can anyone tell me ANYTHING about it?? How effective it is?  (He has depression and general anxiety)  Side effects?  Alcohol yes/no??? I appreciate ANY information!!!!! Thanks much!!!! Effexor XR worked very well for me for years. I have depression and Panic Disorder. http://www.rxlist.com/cgi/generic/venlafax_ids.htm It can be difficult tapering onto SNRIs. My anxiety symptoms worsened initially.I increased my Xanax to help counteract these side effects. Meryl

Thanks for the input.  I guess I must not be as "computer savvy" as I like to think, how did all of these old posts get hooked onto the original message I posted????

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I do efexor, buspar & valium, i do drink & it’s a problem for me!, maybe it’s the alcohol or the efexor or both, i dunno.   Nightsweats happened with me on 225mg, also mind zapps, disorientation, confusion & vivid dreams, but hey, that could be the alcohol also. Just your better off avoiding alcohol as it’s a depressant, but who the hell am i to say that.!!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The Dr. just put my husband on this today, can anyone tell me ANYTHING about it?? How effective it is?  (He has depression and general anxiety)  Side effects?  Alcohol yes/no??? I appreciate ANY information!!!!! Thanks much!!!! Effexor XR worked very well for me for years. I have depression and Panic Disorder. http://www.rxlist.com/cgi/generic/venlafax_ids.htm It can be difficult tapering onto SNRIs. My anxiety symptoms worsened initially.I increased my Xanax to help counteract these side effects. Meryl Thanks for the input.  I guess I must not be as "computer savvy" as I like to think, how did all of these old posts get hooked onto the original message I posted????

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The Dr. just put my husband on this today, can anyone tell me ANYTHING about it?? How effective it is?  (He has depression and general anxiety)  Side effects?  Alcohol yes/no??? I appreciate ANY information!!!!! Thanks much!!!!

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The Dr. just put my husband on this today, can anyone tell me ANYTHING about it??

First thing take the meds for a minimum of 6-12 weeks before trying to observe positive effects and do not discontinue (let me repeat that DO NOT DISCONTINUE cold turkey) except under supervision or by slow taper. However if someone has a penchant to mild hullucinations, severe insomnia and a knife edge metal state … it’s highly recommened. See http://www.crazymeds.org/ Look for the link named Effexor/Venlafaxine See http://www.mentalhealth.com/ Select Medication and then select Venlafaxine How effective it is?  (He has depression and general anxiety)  Side effects?  Alcohol yes/no???

Some say very effective others not (Wasn’t good for me but then I think I didn’t have the right information at the time thought it would be a miracle cure … not so). Wide and varied side effects. Decreased libido, increased anxiety (initially), sweating, insomnia, sensitivity to light (dilated pupils) etc I had no personal side effects when taken with large quantities of alcohol however that doesn’t mean I’ll not need a liver transplant in a few years I appreciate ANY information!!!!!

Please do some research and never accept info in this forum as given … a few nutters lurk in this fine newsgroup. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks much!!!!

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Good on ya Tyr. Have a great day. Bren — http://www.searchtimes.com/brouchers/newyear/index.php?AID=1431&src=n…

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Super dude! Isn’t it a wonder when it works?! Things do change- and often for the better. Guess that is one of the things that keeps me going when I’m down. Best wishes for you both. -Dan

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Soon after I wrote that, my girlfriend called me on the phone and after about thirty seconds she told me that she was on her way over. I had felt that it was just a hum-drum day at that point, but she said I sounded so down over the phone that she’d spring for the Wellbutrin because she didn’t think I should try to wait until payday. (Which was today, 2/15) So, I’ve taken it…what…4 or 5 times now, and although the insert from the pharmacy said not to expect any major change for three to four weeks, today was the first day in months that I felt halfway human, again. I started taking the XL version tonight, since that’s the only thing that my prescription service has on their list, so I’m getting kind of excited about what it can do for me. I actually feel like getting out and doing! Maybe I can take off some of this "winter weight". -Tyr

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Hey…New to Group, but VERY familiar with Effexor XR.  I have been on it for almost 2 years now.  For 10 or more years NOTHING had worked until the effexor in combo with Clonopin and Trazadone.  The initial level for me was the 150.  About 4 months ago I was slowly elevated to 350.  Back in action again.  Keep in mind that I do have fairly serious PTSD as well as chemical imbalances present.  But I am Just so thankful to be down from 30+ pills a day to only 6.  LadyJ

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Soon after I wrote that, my girlfriend called me on the phone and after about thirty seconds she told me that she was on her way over. I had felt that it was just a hum-drum day at that point, but she said I sounded so down over the phone that she’d spring for the Wellbutrin because she didn’t think I should try to wait until payday. (Which was today, 2/15) So, I’ve taken it…what…4 or 5 times now, and although the insert from the pharmacy said not to expect any major change for three to four weeks, today was the first day in months that I felt halfway human, again. I started taking the XL version tonight, since that’s the only thing that my prescription service has on their list, so I’m getting kind of excited about what it can do for me. I actually feel like getting out and doing! Maybe I can take off some of this "winter weight". -Tyr – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Of course everyone is different- with their own unique responses to various drugs. Also samples of one (anecdotes) are notoriously unreliable. That said- I had same problem with Effexor. At least it led to exploration of non-orgasmic intimacy- a widely overlooked pleasure if one can get around expectations and relax. If you have same response as I- the Wellbutrin will present practically no side effects whatsoever. Good luck. -Dan snippage<<

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I took Effexor at the 75mg level and stayed there for a few months. It worked great for a short time, but towards the end, I was starting to slide back down into depression. My side effects were a bit…um…different. While I still had orgasm issues, my sex drive went through the roof! Don’t think that wasn’t frustrating. That’s the primary reason I stopped taking it. My doc prescribed Wellbutrin, but I haven’t had the funds to get it filled yet. Hopefully, the way Wellbutrin works will be more appropriate for me, since my problem my be compounded, situationally speaking, but at the root it is just a chemical imbalance.

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Of course everyone is different- with their own unique responses to various drugs. Also samples of one (anecdotes) are notoriously unreliable. That said- I had same problem with Effexor. At least it led to exploration of non-orgasmic intimacy- a widely overlooked pleasure if one can get around expectations and relax. If you have same response as I- the Wellbutrin will present practically no side effects whatsoever. Good luck. -Dan

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I took Effexor at the 75mg level and stayed there for a few months. It worked great for a short time, but towards the end, I was starting to slide back down into depression. My side effects were a bit…um…different. While I still had orgasm issues, my sex drive went through the roof! Don’t think that wasn’t frustrating. That’s the primary reason I stopped taking it. My doc prescribed Wellbutrin, but I haven’t had the funds to get it filled yet. Hopefully, the way Wellbutrin works will be more appropriate for me, since my problem my be compounded, situationally speaking, but at the root it is just a chemical imbalance.

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I was on effexor for a while for my chronic anxiety and it didn’t do too much, I was up to 150 the withdraw was awful!! I am on paxil now 50 ml and no anxiety what a relieve! But a friend of mine is on it for depression and it works well for her, except she has nightmares.  I had anxiety still and bruised easily and had no sex drive with no orgasm, that was enough of that one, for sure, cuz that is just wrong. No side effects for paxil, so far, might be going up to 60, cuz I still get the odd attack, not sure what doctor will do, perhaps some anxiety is normal…who knows… Hope that helps a bit.  I started on 37.5 and went up slow, and came down slow because they side effects can be extreme and they were, I had to go to my parents to stay to get help with my baby…while I was going through med change.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I recall starting on 75 mg as XR did not come in lower doses here. I also upped my Xanax at the start as I had a couple of days where my anxiety was exacerbated and I had insomnia. It passed. Meryl I think for starting Effexor 37.5 mg should be the maximum dose. One can start with Effexor IR (even at a lower dose if necessary) and replace it by the XR version later. Philip I am not sure Efexor 37.5 was available here when I  commenced XR. I know the conventional wisdom at ASAP is to start with 37.5 IR. One thought. Given that non-anxiety patients are advised (here at least) to take 37.5 mg twice per day, I wonder about how just taking the tablet once a day would work. Maybe half a 37.5 mg twice a day would keep patients more stable.  As for me, back in ‘98, I  needed relief from depression quickly. Efexor 75 mg plus extra Xanax for a few days worked for me. As always, YMMV. :0) Meryl

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Question:

What Makes Tics Tick? Clues Found in Tourette Twins’ Caudates August 1996 For the first time, scientists have a neurobiological explanation for the variation in severity of tics in Tourette Syndrome. Researchers at the National Institute of Mental Health have traced such symptom differences to "supersensitivity" of certain neurotransmitter receptors in the brain structure responsible for carrying out automatic behaviors. They suggest that this dysfunction may underlie the compulsion to act out the sudden movements and vocalizations that characterize Tourette Syndrome, which affects about 100,000 Americans with its full-blown form and up to 0.5% of the population with milder symptoms. The researchers report on their findings in the August 30th issue of Science. In a brain imaging study of identical twins differently affected by the disorder, Daniel Weinberger, M.D., Steven Wolf, M.D., and colleagues in the NIMH Clinical Brain Disorders Branch found that binding to D2 dopamine receptors in the caudate nucleus was higher in the sibling with the more severe symptoms. "Strikingly, the degree to which the twins differed in this caudate D-2 binding predicted almost absolutely their differences in tic severity," said Weinberger. "This also likely explains the ebb and flow of tics experienced over the course of Tourette Syndrome and its overlap with obsessive compulsive disorder. "While we know that genetics plays an important role in transmission of Tourette Syndrome, the fact that identical twins show differences in symptom severity suggests that environmental influences modify the clinical expression of the disorder," he explained. "We studied identical twins discordant for such symptom severity to control for normal genetic variation in brain function." Although previous studies comparing unrelated Tourette patients with unaffected persons had failed to show differences in dopamine system function, the NIMH investigators were spurred by the fact that Tourette symptoms respond to drugs like haloperidol that block D2 dopamine receptors. They used a radioactive tracer drug, IBZM (iodobenzamide), that similarly blocks D2 receptors, and a SPECT* (single-photon emission computed tomography) scanner to image dopamine binding in five identical twin pairs with the disorder. In each case, the differences were observed in the head of the caudate nucleus, but not in the adjacent putamen, suggesting that D2 caudate binding accounted for almost all of the symptomatic variance within each twin pair. Previously, preoccupation with the motoric aspects of Tourette Syndrome had led researchers to search for clues in the putamen, according to Weinberger. Subtle changes in receptor availability in one small area appear to explain rather large differences in clinical presentation, say the researchers. Functional brain imaging studies of OCD (obsessive compulsive disorder), which often occurs along with Tourette Syndrome, also implicate a brain circuit that includes the head of the caudate nucleus, along with areas in the frontal and cingulate cortex. Thus, the new NIMH finding adds to evidence that the disorders are "overlapping neurobehavioral conditions," suggest the researchers. They speculate that the caudate nucleus may be related to the compulsive component of tics, whereas the dopamine dysfunction there may be the "common link between the ideational and motor components of Tourette Syndrome." Other NIMH researchers participating in the study included: Drs. Douglas Jones, Michael Knable, Thomas Hyde, Richard Coppola, Kan Sam Lee, and Julia Gorey. Twin subjects were recruited by the Tourette Syndrome Association, Inc., which also provided partial funding for the study. Additional information and b-roll are available from the association (718-224-2999). Information provided by the NIMH. *The SPECT scanner employs radiation detectors to get a fix on the location in the brain of a tracer drug. Unlike other similar techniques, such as PET (positron emission tomography), SPECT uses a tracer with a long half-life, making possible studies such as this one, which involved a prolonged series of scans over a 4-hour period. http://www.mhsource.com/hy/tic.html

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Hi Elaine, http://www.dystonia-foundation.org/defined/forms.asp This is a link to they Dystonia Research Foundation website. You can check your symptoms with Ormandibular or Meige These are focal forms of Dystonia, which is a movement disorder. These are sometimes caused from side effects from certain medications. I have Blepharospasm which affects the eyes and Meige which affects the face. Facial tics and Meige are very similar. The best type of doctor for diagnosing would be a Movement Disorder Specialist. I was watching Oprah the other day, it was about Tourettes. It was an excellent show. I was very interested in the similaraties of finding things that we can do to get a rest from the movements (tics) they showed a girl who can act and sing on stage tic free. The other things were how we feel inside living and coping with this. The show came about from the book "Icy Sparks" which talks about emotions. Sounds like a great book. Please come back and let us know how you are doing. Best Wishes, Mindy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Hi, I was doing a search online, and obtained a reference to this newsgroup for possible help. I have Tourette Syndrome and have been on different medications over the years. Recently, I was taking Prolxin. When I stopped, a new tic appeared (which is common with TS — for tics to come and go and change). This tic was in my face though and hasn’t followed the usual course of tics I have had in the past. I am concerned that this is not part of TS but rather Tardive Dyskensia caused from taking Prolixin. At this point, I am not sure what to do, or what can be done. I contacted the doctor who prescribed the Prolixin who is located in Houston.  (I live in Albuquerque). He said I should make an appointment to come in for an exam. While this may be the best thing to do, I am concerned, since he was the one who prescribed the Prolixin to begin with. My symptoms include movements in my face, particularly the right side of my face in my jaw and check area. It has become quite painful for my jaw. It is a facial contortion that somewhat looks like chewing, and also smacking with my lips. I have read some information that the earlier it is detected the better the chance it will disappear. I don’t know if there is a treatment for this or not. I also have started taking Vitamin E, as I ran across this information as well as something that could potential help. I would appreciate any advice that I can get from anyone who has information regarding this. thanks, elaine

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Hi, I was doing a search online, and obtained a reference to this newsgroup for possible help. I would appreciate any advice that I can get from anyone who has information regarding this. thanks, elaine

Hi Elaine, I had a no no tic for a few years and can really sympathize with you.  Tics are so exhausting and embarrassing.   Onset started after taking medication for an ulcer.   The prescrition’s name is unknown. I only made the connection between onset and the medication years later. I was never treated for the tic.  It went away on its own.   I do have essential tremor and Dystonia.   Please check out the following sites for more http://www.wfubmc.edu/surg-sci/ns/tremor.html http://www.parkinsons-information-exchange-network-online.com/archive… Regards, Gene

Response:

Hi, I was doing a search online, and obtained a reference to this newsgroup for possible help. I have Tourette Syndrome and have been on different medications over the years. Recently, I was taking Prolxin. When I stopped, a new tic appeared (which is common with TS — for tics to come and go and change). This tic was in my face though and hasn’t followed the usual course of tics I have had in the past. I am concerned that this is not part of TS but rather Tardive Dyskensia caused from taking Prolixin. At this point, I am not sure what to do, or what can be done. I contacted the doctor who prescribed the Prolixin who is located in Houston.  (I live in Albuquerque). He said I should make an appointment to come in for an exam. While this may be the best thing to do, I am concerned, since he was the one who prescribed the Prolixin to begin with. My symptoms include movements in my face, particularly the right side of my face in my jaw and check area. It has become quite painful for my jaw. It is a facial contortion that somewhat looks like chewing, and also smacking with my lips. I have read some information that the earlier it is detected the better the chance it will disappear. I don’t know if there is a treatment for this or not. I also have started taking Vitamin E, as I ran across this information as well as something that could potential help. I would appreciate any advice that I can get from anyone who has information regarding this. thanks, elaine

Response:

What a great group! Thanks for the quick response and the links you have all recommended. This is the kind of doc I went to for my Tourettes. It is Dr. Jankovic at Baylor in Houston. It is a Movement Disorders clinic. Unfortunately, he is also the one who prescribed the Prolixin. I am currently trying to get an appointment with him again to try to figure out what is going on. He also mentioned botox treatment. Has this been successful for any of

you? Several months ago, I heard that someone had gone to Dr. Jandovic in Houston, also for Tourettes and received botox injections.  Apparently, it is being done but I never heard anything else from this young man as to success.   Botox is also being used for tics with success. Dr. Jankovic has a good reputation.   I’ve heard from one lady here locally that saw him but she did not care for his bedside manner.  She hasn’t been happy with any of her doctors, though.  She has Blepharospasm symptoms but apparently keeps getting different diagnoses depending on where she goes. Shirley

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What a great group! Thanks for the quick response and the links you have all recommended. This is the kind of doc I went to for my Tourettes. It is Dr. Jankovic at Baylor in Houston. It is a Movement Disorders clinic. Unfortunately, he is also the one who prescribed the Prolixin. I am currently trying to get an appointment with him again to try to figure out what is going on.

Dr. Jankovic, apparently, is one of the top in his field.  He has an excellent reputation. He also mentioned botox treatment. Has this been successful for any of you?

Botox is used on  focal dystonias.  Many patients have had good results with it.   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Several months ago, I heard that someone had gone to Dr. Jandovic in Shirley

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Hi Mindy, It has been very helpful! I am grateful for the information. Positive thinking – BINGO Stress Management and Humor are the best medicines. I can’t forget God and prayer, is #1

Yes, I can see where all of these would be important. I have noticed stress plays a big part in the disorder. It does in Tourettes as well, but seems to be more so with this. the eye twitch you refer to I might describe as a soft fluttering feeling.

right, that is what I a good example… Our eye spasms are involuntary but they are hard blinks, sometimes forecful. Other times they close and will not open on command. These type of spasms are very noticable. The eye and facial spasms are extremely hard to suppress.

Tics from tourettes are involuntary as well, but there is this sense at some level that you "should" be able to stop the movement. I feel this as well with whatever is going on with my face. Even though realistically it doesn’t feel like I can stop it, it also doesn’t feel as involuntary as the eye twitch described above. It also seems much harder to suppress than tics that I normally have with TS. It also feels like it is getting worse. I don’t know if that is from stress or maybe from being off the offending medication for a longer period of time. Its very confusing! And painful… Just like TS, when I do try to suppress it, it is only short lived. It seems to be more prevalent in frequency as well compared to the tics I have with TS. That is exactly what happens. It would help if I laid down closed my eyes, opened my mouthly slightly, relaxing my jaw and my face. I would take slow deep breaths and focused on relaxing each part of my body from my head to my toes (very slowly, as I said the words to my self, relax your head, etc.) and don’t move on until each part is relaxed.

I will try this as well. It would be nice to get some relief. Dr.Jankovic is well known. I don’t know anything about him personally. I go to Dr. Bressman in Manhattan, she is an excellent doctor. She has tried me on many meds that didn’t agree with me at all. These types of disorders require lot’s of patience from the doctor as well as the patient to see which meds. or combination of meds. that will help. Life would be much easier if we all responded the same way to these meds. but, we don’t, unfortunately.

This is true for TS as well…except there really are no meds that really work with TS. Some will reduce tics, but none will make them go away. Unless for example, you take a neuroleptic in a high dose. In that case your tics would probably subside, but you wouldn’t be able to think! I’m pretty sure Dr.J. is one of the very dedicated doctors of this field. It’s important you have confidence in your doctor. Does he listen carefully and take his time with you? These things are also important.

I have only seen him once, last December. And he seemed pretty good. I e-mailed him about my frustrations of calling his office and not being able to get an appointment till December, and he wrote and said he would have his secretary arrange to overbook me on a day soon. So I was pleased to hear this. For a long time Dr.Bressman had me as "Meige vs. tics"  She said it is so similar.

I can see that! I think that has been a big part of my confusion. They are so similar it is hard to tell them apart. She would ask if I felt the need to blink, before I blinked. It was hard for me to answer because it was always changing.

It is common with TS to have "premonitory" feelings before a tic. That is probably why she was asking you this. For example, I have a tic that is in my torso. Inevitably, when I get in the car to go somewhere, I "have to" tic. I twist my upper torso from left to right repeatedly, until it "feels right". And I can always tell before I tic that it is going to happen. If anything, the tic or problem with my face now feels more like "a habit". That somehow it has become a habit for my jaw and mouth to contort about every 30 seconds or so. When I sleep, I don’t have it. I wake up in the morning and think, if I try really hard today, maybe it won’t come back. And it always does. Seems to get worse as the day progresses as well. I am hoping it is not damaging my jaw. It feels like it could be. It hurts into the jaw bone. I will be seeing my dentist next week, so I will ask if any damage has occurred. She said the treatment is the same. I was getting botox around my eyes and in my jaw.  It did help me.. How long it helps varies with each person. About 2 yrs ago it stopped helping. Which worked out fine, cause presently I am on medication that is helping.

What medication is that? Are you experiencing any side-effects from it? When you do something creative that you are totally engrossed in, you get a reprieve from your tics. Stress makes them worse. During sleep, they are usually much better Is this true with dystonia as well? Another BINGO Many with dystonia we found from our discussions hum or sing or make some type of sound.

I haven’t found that doing something creative helps alleviate the facial movements at all. Actually, that was probably my first clue that it might not be a "normal tic" that I experience with TS. I haven’t tried humming or singing though…definitely worth a try! Also, many have problems breathing they tend to subside when the spasms are helped with medicine. Does this happen with TS?

No, breathing problems are not common with TS. I can see where I tend to breathe more shallow now because of this facial tic. It’s kind of like your whole body is taking a toll because of the tic. Kind of like your whole body tenses up, which then makes your breathing worse. But on a more physical level, like the feeling of asthma, I have not experienced that. Thanks for all the help! I really appreciate it. I am trying to learn as much as I can about this before I see Dr. Jankovic in the next couple of weeks. Have you had Meige all of your life of is it fairly recent? Do you know what caused it? thanks again, elaine

Response:

It has been very helpful! I am grateful for the information.

Me too )) It also feels like it is getting worse. I don’t know if that is from stress or maybe from being off the offending medication for a longer period of time. Its very confusing! And painful…

It might be a good idea if you write down all these feelings and symptoms because they are easy to forget. Take them with you when you go to the doctor. Leave a space between your questions, fill in with his replies. My sypmtoms started 8yrs. ago, it was my 40th birthday present (Ha Ha) (( I don’t know what caused it. My first few visits I took a small tape recorder with me, along with my husband and sister-in-law. None of us could have remembered everything, and we all walk out hearing something a little different – LOL For the pain, you can try moist warm heat or ice, you will get to know which makes you feel better. Don’t chew gum, that will give your jaw more of a work-out. You can suck on hard candy. That sucking action works the reverse of chewing. The dentist made me a mouth piece, nothing fancy, inexpensive. It’s clear rubber, molded from my teeth. I asked him to make the back a little thicker.  I wore it mostly during the night. There were times when I needed it for driving (sounds strange) It really is very painful, and no one can understand how exhausting it can be, unless you’ve experienced it. Really all the dystonia movements are painful and exhausting. TS tics are not painful or exhausting? This is true for TS as well…except there really are no meds that really work with TS. Some will reduce tics, but none will make them go away.

BINGO – they don’t know the cause, and they don’t have a cure.  Unless for example, you take a neuroleptic in a high dose.

My doctor told me Never Ever take any neuroleptics or dopamine blockers. There are lists of meds. that can cause dystonia. But strangely enough many on that list are prescribed to help dystonia. Let’s hope and pray if yours came from that med. it will subside and go away. I was given meds that gave me crazy side effects like making my arms fling about, and my head shake, etc. They did go away when the med. was out of my system. I e-mailed him about my frustrations of calling his office and not being able to get an appointment till

It does get frustrating, between the doses, and symptoms, there was always questions. I ended up goint to a psychiatrist in my neighborhood who is board certified in psychiatry and neurology to monitor my meds. He was in contact with my Movement Specialist, and I don’t take anything unless she ok’s it. When I sleep, I don’t have it. I wake up in the morning and think, if I try really hard today, maybe it won’t come back. And it always does. Seems to get worse as the day progresses as well.

Dystonia spasms go away while sleeping. It helps to get a good nights sleep, and a nap in the afternoon. I remember waking up with those exact feelings. What medication is that? Are you experiencing any side-effects from it?

I’m taking Parsitan, (My psych.does not monitor this med) It’s not sold in the States. I get it from Canada. I notice some short term memory loss. I haven’t found that doing something creative helps alleviate the facial movements at all.

I was able to crotchet, gardening, be on the computer, these would alleviate the movements, most of the time. I actually thought I could re-train my brain by doing something that kept my eyes open, I would stay at it for hours, days, months -LOL I still keep my hopes up that my brain will work around the mis-fired neurotransmitters.  Positive thinking LOL I can see where I tend to breathe more shallow now because of this facial tic. It’s kind of like your whole body is taking a toll because of the tic. Kind of like your whole body tenses up, which then makes your breathing worse.

I think you hit the nail on the head. If you pracitce deep breathing excersises everyday, it will automatically kick in when you need it. It takes a long time, but the everyday benefits are definately worth it. Not only for us, for everyone. It’s great for mind and body. Thanks for all the help! I really appreciate it. I am trying to learn as much as I can about this before I see Dr. Jankovic in the next couple of weeks.

I’m really enjoying our chit-chat Marie and Shirley have the same type of dystonia as I do. Hey Marie & Shirley, we could use your 2 cents thanks again, elaine

thank you, Elaine, Mindy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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What a great group! Thanks for the quick response and the links you have all recommended. I had a no no tic for a few years and can really sympathize with you.  Tics are so exhausting and embarrassing.

yes. they sure can be! it is a bizarre disorder… I was never treated for the tic.  It went away on its own. I do have essential tremor and Dystonia.

I am hoping that I caught this soon enough and it will go away…positive thinking! It is interesting that you have essential tremor. When I went to see a new specialist last December regarding my Tourettes, he did a standard neurological evaluation and also told me I had essential tremor. I had known for years that my hands would shake for no apparent reason. Primarily when I tried to do fine detail work. Interestingly enough, I am a graphic designer. Most of my work now is done on computer. But in the past, and still when I paint or illustrate, if I am really focused, my hands don’t seem to shake. Yet, if I am doing something "non-creative" like trying to screw in a screw or solder something, they shake so much it is hard to be effective. My hands have been this way so long that I just thought it was me…so I was surprised when my doc had a term to describe it. You can check your symptoms with Ormandibular or Meige…

<snip thanks for the links… one of my questions is that in the description of these disorders, it describes it many times as being a "spasm" What is happening with me, doesn’t feel like a spasm. We sometimes have discussions like this on Tourettes lists that I am on, so I am sure you have discussed how these movements "feel"… To me a spasm feels more involuntary. For example, an eye twitch. This is a common experience that most people experience at different times in their life. The muscle twitches, fairly rapidly and the person has absolutely no control over it. Is that what dystonia is like? That is not what is happening for me. This movement is actually very similar to the tics I experience with Tourettes — if I really try, I can somewhat suppress this movement. The thing that feels different with the facial movements I am describing to you compared to the tics I normally feel with TS is that it is more difficult to suppress the movement. Just like TS, when I do try to suppress it, it is only short lived. It seems to be more prevalent in frequency as well compared to the tics I have with TS. The best type of doctor for diagnosing would be a Movement Disorder Specialist.

This is the kind of doc I went to for my Tourettes. It is Dr. Jankovic at Baylor in Houston. It is a Movement Disorders clinic. Unfortunately, he is also the one who prescribed the Prolixin. I am currently trying to get an appointment with him again to try to figure out what is going on. He also mentioned botox treatment. Has this been successful for any of you? I was watching Oprah the other day, it was about Tourettes. It was an excellent show.

Yes, it was very well done! There were a lot of shows in the past that only showed the sensationalized aspects of Tourettes, so it was nice to see one that was accurate for a change! I was very interested in the similaraties of finding things that we can do to get a rest from the movements (tics) they showed a girl who can act and sing on stage tic free.

this seems to be fairly common with TS. When you do something creative that you are totally engrossed in, you get a reprieve from your tics. Stress makes them worse. During sleep, they are usually much better. Is this true with dystonia as well? Thanks again Gene and Mindy for your help! sincerely, elaine

Response:

I am French, though I don’t understand all the details of your conversation, I am very interested in reading your messages. I’ve been suffering from what is called "hemispasme" in French for about 8 years. Obviously it is not genetic but the symptoms are very similar to what I can read in some of your messages. It started slighly with my right eye as I was expecting my fourth child. No doctors could really help me, giving me neuroleptic which had all the possible effects on my body except on my eye. 2 years ago, I was about leaving my job I love so much, I couldn’t bear the spasms which occured every 30 seconds all day long. Though my life was harmonious, however I felt exhausted. My doctor sent me to a French specialist who started Botox. I have injections every three months, the medicine comes from the US and is not entirely recognized in France as it is considered as a "treatment for comfort !!". Besides, it is very expensive. I’ve had a new life since that time, though the right side of my face has changed a bit -people often ask me why I am so tired !. I perhaps look tired, but I feel very enthusiastic inside. I am 40 now and I wonder how long Botox will continue to help me. Have a nice day; Jo

Question:

Celexia, Prozac, Wellbutin, Zoloft, Effexor, which I stopped called turky, a 2 months ago. I’mback on Paxil as the pain clinic said it helps the most with chronic pain… The thing with Paxil, by the third week I am a zombie…. dory

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Paul, I used to take Paxil, now on Effexor XR.  I am currently thinking about switching to another one.  I think I build up a tolerance to them over time.   I have a cousin who seems to have this same problem with tolerance, he can only last about six months on a given antidepressant. Susan E

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oooohhhhhhhhhhh i have a headache — all your base are belong to us <el…@notathome.com

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news:3af18654.8951432@news.cis.dfn.de… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

On Thu, 03 May 2001 15:53:14 GMT, "Diana Calder" <d.r.calder@home wrote: family.  Anyway! with M.S., the mind says yes and the body says no, or is the other way around! Close.  I believe its "the mind says yes, and the body says f*** off"   Eliz. To paraphrase Oedipus, Hamlet, Lear, and all those guys, "I wish I had known this some time ago." – Corwin, Sign of the Unicorn

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oh please a bit of couth — all your base are belong to us "Michael" <muirh…@island.net

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news:9cs146$f4sgt$1@ID-78693.news.dfncis.de… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "Podz" <po.dzDEL…@ntlworld.com

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> news:9crs0o$f9vfv$1@ID-83140.news.dfncis.de… > > Paroxetine (Seroxat) > <snip> > > 1…Prevents ejaculation at high doses > High-dose ejaculation is undesirable? > Is that because *both* people would have to sleep in the wet spot? > <ducking> > — >           ((((((((((U)))))))))) > Michael <muirh…@island.net> >    -=| Livin’ on Island Time |=-

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Michael wrote:

The description of Effexor’s side effects goes on for two whole *pages* of fine print! Effing brutal, huh?   I’ll pass.

It is an EXCELLENT anti-depressant.   And if I felt I needed it I’d take again in a heartbeat, side effects be damned. But, for me right now, I’m not especially depressed, I’ll take wellbrutrin as a ‘just in case’ pill and to help me quit smoking.  I am mostly stopping it because I was tired of feeling like a sexless lump.  Heheh, now I’m just a frisky tired lump, deeeeeep sigh. ps. I forgot to mention the fun ‘clicking’ sound in your head when you move your eyes.  whoopie! Eliz. _____ As God is my witness, I really thought turkeys could fly. (WKRP in Cincinnati)

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<el…@notathome.com

wrote in message news:3af0ec09.50575026@news.cis.dfn.de… Michael wrote: The description of Effexor’s side effects goes on for two whole *pages* of fine print! Effing brutal, huh?   I’ll pass. It is an EXCELLENT anti-depressant.   And if I felt I needed it I’d take again in a heartbeat, side effects be damned.

Easy there…. I wasn’t dumping on the stuff… just expressing (understandable, by my lights) fright.   It took a long time to convince myself to take Zoloft, whose side-effect list is not much shorter than Effexor’s.   It would doubtless take as long to convince me to take Effexor.

take wellbrutrin as a ‘just in case’ pill and to help me quit smoking.  I am mostly stopping it because I was tired of feeling like a sexless lump.  Heheh, now I’m just a frisky tired lump, deeeeeep sigh.

I had much the same problem while I took that stuff.   Libido *real* good… get-it-uppitiness OK… stamina *nil*.

ps. I forgot to mention the fun ‘clicking’ sound in your head when you move your eyes.  whoopie!

Oh, JOY!   Do you use 3-D specs and Dolby-surround for added effect? —           ((((((((((U)))))))))) Michael <muirh…@island.net

   -=| Livin’ on Island Time |=-

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I have    used ALMOST every drug in the previous 50 posts EXCEPT Effexor…Though I may have had a brief stint with that too….I have been on Zoloft now for awhile….The only thing I can say, is I have to make sure to take it as early as possible or it becomes impossible to..you know…I don’t want to be crass…well I do, but I won’t….You know….My Dr said good, It is probably the most exercise u get…:-) Warm Regards and I hope you are all well, Eric Remember Strawberries, Watermellons, Lollipops, Sunshine and Hugs?

Response:

Parnate (Tranylcypromine)  and   Aurorix I used the Aurorix to have a break from the Parnate but I was on it for too long. It didn’t work as well and I was flat for a few months without realizing that I had pretty serious depression while on an anti depressant. Partly it was what was going on. When looking at the two though, Parnate is a much "dirtier" drug but is said to improve the catecholamines, adrenaline, noradrenaline, dopamine and also serotonin.   (as well as who knows what.)   In the Aurorix information dopamine isn’t mentioned. I wonder if it is *that* which is the really missing ingredient. btw originally it was prescribed for fatigue. At the time I had euphoria rather than depression.  So I wonder about the making of these lists. There is a complication that GPs especially introduce when they prescribed drugs which they know *work* (for some of their patients) for some symptoms. But which aren’t what the authorities or the companies make them for.   eg the new anti epileptic drug which in Australia only people with epilepsy could get as a cheap drug. Others had to pay the full price. (PwMS) keep up the good work Paul,                Linda http://www.ozemail.com.au/~lindafrd/ remove JUNK from address to reply

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Yup, I agree.   I especially hate it when I miss a day, just one day, and I get the withdrawal symptoms, makes you wonder just what’s going on in there eh?  But did you know that MS affects the seratonin levels?  For me that little tidbit, coupled with my history of depression, and the fact that this disease would make anyone depressed, makes me loathe to stop taking anti-depressants. More of a preventative measure.  I know all too well how easily depression can sneak up on you. On Thu, 03 May 2001 16:45:28 GMT, "Diana Calder" <d.r.calder@home

wrote: I want to get off the dam things because of their horrible addictiveness.  I also feel that my body is getting used to them and are finding them not as effective as in the past. They say don’t try to fix whats not broken, but I do think we build up a tolerance to drugs after awhile.

Eliz. _____ There is an angel inside of me whom I am constantly shocking.

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I want to get off the dam things because of their horrible addictiveness.  I also feel that my body is getting used to them and are finding them not as effective as in the past.  They say don’t try to fix whats not broken, but I do think we build up a tolerance to drugs after awhile. <el…@notathome.com

wrote in message

news:3af186d4.9079372@news.cis.dfn.de… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Eek!  The  most I ever took was 75 mg/day!  I’ve always been > really sensitve to anti-depressants.  After TWO weeks I > managed to get down to 37.5, now I’m phasing down from that. > 4-5 days!?!    Holy crap batman.  That’s way too fast. > Be careful of the tablets – they really burn your guts if > you don’t take with a FULL meal. > Why did you want to stop taking it? > Diane Calder wrote: > >Hi Eliz! > >The doctor tried to wean me off 150 mgs in November over a > >4 0r 5 day period.  I then was to switch to wellbutrin. > >Well! besides feeling extremely nauseated, and a horrible > >sweeping sound in my head, I fell into a major depressive > >episode.  I ended up in the hospital for two weeks with my > >blood pressure all askew. They put me back on Effexor and > >now have increased the dose up to 225 mgs. I didn’t know > >they had the tablet form.  How are you doing weaning off > >Effexor!  Are you being succesful?  Good luck! > >Diana > ><el…@notathome.com

wrote in message

> >news:3af0e13e.47811940@news.cis.dfn.de… > >> Diana Calder wrote: > >> >Paxil, Zoloft, Elavil, Am now on Effexor which I find > >> >great, but hard to wean off of. > >> I too am trying to get off effexor.  I am taking > wellbutrin > >> as well.  Have you tried taking the tablet form of > effexor? > >> You can break the tablets into smaller and smaller pieces > to > >> get off it.  Otherwise the side effects are brutal as you > >> know! > >> Eliz. > >> _____ > >> As God is my witness, I really thought turkeys could fly. > >> (WKRP in Cincinnati) > Eliz. > To paraphrase Oedipus, Hamlet, Lear, and all those guys, "I wish I > had known this some time ago." – Corwin, Sign of the Unicorn

Response:

"Podz" <po.dzDEL…@ntlworld.com

wrote in message

news:9crs0o$f9vfv$1@ID-83140.news.dfncis.de…

Paroxetine (Seroxat)

<snip

1…Prevents ejaculation at high doses

High-dose ejaculation is undesirable? Is that because *both* people would have to sleep in the wet spot? <ducking

—           ((((((((((U)))))))))) Michael <muirh…@island.net

   -=| Livin’ on Island Time |=-

Response:

Eek!  The  most I ever took was 75 mg/day!  I’ve always been really sensitve to anti-depressants.  After TWO weeks I managed to get down to 37.5, now I’m phasing down from that. 4-5 days!?!    Holy crap batman.  That’s way too fast. Be careful of the tablets – they really burn your guts if you don’t take with a FULL meal. Why did you want to stop taking it? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Diane Calder wrote:

Hi Eliz! The doctor tried to wean me off 150 mgs in November over a 4 0r 5 day period.  I then was to switch to wellbutrin. Well! besides feeling extremely nauseated, and a horrible sweeping sound in my head, I fell into a major depressive episode.  I ended up in the hospital for two weeks with my blood pressure all askew. They put me back on Effexor and now have increased the dose up to 225 mgs. I didn’t know they had the tablet form.  How are you doing weaning off Effexor!  Are you being succesful?  Good luck! Diana <el…@notathome.com wrote in message news:3af0e13e.47811940@news.cis.dfn.de… Diana Calder wrote: Paxil, Zoloft, Elavil, Am now on Effexor which I find great, but hard to wean off of. I too am trying to get off effexor.  I am taking

wellbutrin

as well.  Have you tried taking the tablet form of

effexor?

You can break the tablets into smaller and smaller pieces

to

get off it.  Otherwise the side effects are brutal as you know! Eliz. _____ As God is my witness, I really thought turkeys could fly. (WKRP in Cincinnati)

Eliz. To paraphrase Oedipus, Hamlet, Lear, and all those guys, "I wish I had known this some time ago." – Corwin, Sign of the Unicorn

Response:

Eliz! You explained coming off Effexor to a tee!  As far as the libido side effects, Effexor has been the only antidepresant that has not interfered with that subject for myself.  All the others have, especially the prozac family.  Anyway! with M.S., the mind says yes and the body says no, or is the other way around! Diana <el…@notathome.com

wrote in message

news:3af0e9da.50016336@news.cis.dfn.de… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Michael  wrote: I’m curious here… what *are* the side effects to watch for when kicking Effexor? I remember this feeling of total depersonalization (nothing seemed real, and it was almost as if I was in some sort of a "bubble" that kept the world out,) when kicking a couple of different tricyclics… but never had any difficulty with trazodone or Zoloft. The word ‘discombobulated’ really sums it up.  Turn your head too fast and it feels like your brain has become unhinged.  Stir in a hefty of dose of bed-spin feeling.  I imagine its what a mild concussion would feel like, or a good whollop to the noggin.  effing brutal.  Ten times worse than the symptoms you get when you start taking it. Eliz. _____ As God is my witness, I really thought turkeys could fly. (WKRP in Cincinnati)

Response:

On Thu, 03 May 2001 15:53:14 GMT, "Diana Calder" <d.r.calder@home

wrote: family.  Anyway! with M.S., the mind says yes and the body says no, or is the other way around!

Close.  I believe its "the mind says yes, and the body says f*** off"   Eliz. To paraphrase Oedipus, Hamlet, Lear, and all those guys, "I wish I had known this some time ago." – Corwin, Sign of the Unicorn

Response:

Yup!  that analogy is much more fitting!  Thanks! Diana <el…@notathome.com

wrote in message

news:3af18654.8951432@news.cis.dfn.de… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

On Thu, 03 May 2001 15:53:14 GMT, "Diana Calder" <d.r.calder@home wrote: family.  Anyway! with M.S., the mind says yes and the body says no, or is the other way around! Close.  I believe its "the mind says yes, and the body says f*** off"   Eliz. To paraphrase Oedipus, Hamlet, Lear, and all those guys, "I wish I had known this some time ago." – Corwin, Sign of the Unicorn

Response:

Hi Eliz! The doctor tried to wean me off 150 mgs in November over a 4 0r 5 day period.  I then was to switch to wellbutrin.  Well! besides feeling extremely nauseated, and a horrible sweeping sound in my head, I fell into a major depressive episode.  I ended up in the hospital for two weeks with my blood pressure all askew. They put me back on Effexor and now have increased the dose up to 225 mgs. I didn’t know they had the tablet form.  How are you doing weaning off Effexor!  Are you being succesful?  Good luck! Diana <el…@notathome.com

wrote in message

news:3af0e13e.47811940@news.cis.dfn.de… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Diana Calder wrote: Paxil, Zoloft, Elavil, Am now on Effexor which I find great, but hard to wean off of. I too am trying to get off effexor.  I am taking wellbutrin as well.  Have you tried taking the tablet form of effexor? You can break the tablets into smaller and smaller pieces to get off it.  Otherwise the side effects are brutal as you know! Eliz. _____ As God is my witness, I really thought turkeys could fly. (WKRP in Cincinnati)

Response:

"Paul Jones" <Paul_Jo…@btinternet.com

wrote in message

news:3AF09386.6A58CF2F@btinternet.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Hi, I’m preparing a list of medications that people use in MS for my non-profit web site. I’m doing them symptoms by symptom. I’m particularly interested in the brand names as I can always get back to the generic from that and brands vary from country to country. Right now I’m doing anti-depressants. If could people reply to this just saying all the brands of anti-depressant that they have used, even if you’re not using them now, I’d be very grateful. Thanks, Paul http://www.btinternet.com/~ms_pages/

Been on; Prozac (Fluoxetine) Lustral (Sertraline) Dothiepin ( *forgot*) Amitriptylline (generic name) Paroxetine (Seroxat) This latter is the best for me, but has 2 unwelcome effects. 1…Prevents ejaculation at high doses 2…Known withdrawal syndrome ( see www.bnf.org ) HTH, P.

Response:

<el…@notathome.com

wrote …

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Michael  wrote: I’m curious here… what *are* the side effects to watch for when kicking Effexor? I remember this feeling of total depersonalization (nothing seemed real, and it was almost as if I was in some sort of a "bubble" that kept the world out,) when kicking a couple of different tricyclics… but never had any difficulty with trazodone or Zoloft. The word ‘discombobulated’ really sums it up.  Turn your head too fast and it feels like your brain has become unhinged.  Stir in a hefty of dose of bed-spin feeling.  I imagine its what a mild concussion would feel like, or a good whollop to the noggin.  effing brutal.  Ten times worse than the symptoms you get when you start taking it.

I just poked through my little (NOT) book of pills… The description of Effexor’s side effects goes on for two whole *pages* of fine print! Effing brutal, huh?   I’ll pass. —           ((((((((((U)))))))))) Michael <muirh…@island.net

   -=| Livin’ on Island Time |=-

Response:

Michael  wrote:

I’m curious here… what *are* the side effects to watch for when kicking Effexor? I remember this feeling of total depersonalization (nothing seemed real, and it was almost as if I was in some sort of a "bubble" that kept the world out,) when kicking a couple of different tricyclics… but never had any difficulty with trazodone or Zoloft.

The word ‘discombobulated’ really sums it up.  Turn your head too fast and it feels like your brain has become unhinged.  Stir in a hefty of dose of bed-spin feeling.  I imagine its what a mild concussion would feel like, or a good whollop to the noggin.  effing brutal.  Ten times worse than the symptoms you get when you start taking it. Eliz. _____ As God is my witness, I really thought turkeys could fly. (WKRP in Cincinnati)

Response:

Diana Calder wrote:

Paxil, Zoloft, Elavil, Am now on Effexor which I find great, but hard to wean off of.

I too am trying to get off effexor.  I am taking wellbutrin as well.  Have you tried taking the tablet form of effexor? You can break the tablets into smaller and smaller pieces to get off it.  Otherwise the side effects are brutal as you know! Eliz. _____ As God is my witness, I really thought turkeys could fly. (WKRP in Cincinnati)

Response:

<el…@notathome.com

wrote in message news:3af0e13e.47811940@news.cis.dfn.de… Diana Calder wrote: Paxil, Zoloft, Elavil, Am now on Effexor which I find great, but hard to wean off of. I too am trying to get off effexor.  I am taking wellbutrin as well.  Have you tried taking the tablet form of effexor? You can break the tablets into smaller and smaller pieces to get off it.  Otherwise the side effects are brutal as you know!

I’m curious here… what *are* the side effects to watch for when kicking Effexor? I remember this feeling of total depersonalization (nothing seemed real, and it was almost as if I was in some sort of a "bubble" that kept the world out,) when kicking a couple of different tricyclics… but never had any difficulty with trazodone or Zoloft. —           ((((((((((U)))))))))) Michael <muirh…@island.net

   -=| Livin’ on Island Time |=-

Response:

Zoloft, Effexor, Wellbutrin. On Thu, 03 May 2001 00:08:54 +0100, Paul Jones – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -<Paul_Jo…@btinternet.com

wrote: Hi, I’m preparing a list of medications that people use in MS

for my

non-profit web site. I’m doing them symptoms by symptom.

I’m

particularly interested in the brand names as I can always

get back to

the generic from that and brands vary from country to

country.

Right now I’m doing anti-depressants. If could people reply to this just saying all the brands of anti-depressant that they have used, even if you’re not

using them now,

I’d be very grateful. Thanks, Paul http://www.btinternet.com/~ms_pages/

Eliz. _____ As God is my witness, I really thought turkeys could fly. (WKRP in Cincinnati)

Response:

Prozac, Zoloft, Effexor, Trazedone.  Not using any now.  Didn’t like the so-called "side effects" cc:ng

Response:

Paxil, Zoloft, Elavil, Am now on Effexor which I find great, but hard to wean off of. Diana Paul Jones <Paul_Jo…@btinternet.com

wrote in message

news:3AF09386.6A58CF2F@btinternet.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Hi, I’m preparing a list of medications that people use in MS for my non-profit web site. I’m doing them symptoms by symptom. I’m particularly interested in the brand names as I can always get back to the generic from that and brands vary from country to country. Right now I’m doing anti-depressants. If could people reply to this just saying all the brands of anti-depressant that they have used, even if you’re not using them now, I’d be very grateful. Thanks, Paul http://www.btinternet.com/~ms_pages/

Response:

Hi, I’m preparing a list of medications that people use in MS for my non-profit web site. I’m doing them symptoms by symptom. I’m particularly interested in the brand names as I can always get back to the generic from that and brands vary from country to country. Right now I’m doing anti-depressants. If could people reply to this just saying all the brands of anti-depressant that they have used, even if you’re not using them now, I’d be very grateful. Thanks, Paul http://www.btinternet.com/~ms_pages/

Response:

Question:

nope

Response:

Geoff, Thanks for the medical backing.  I’ve made similar statements to my GI about pain relief; it’s nice to have a bit more knowledge to back it up.  So far I’ve not had problems with pain relief, i.e. getting the right scripts, but you never know when that can change.  mgbio CD Class of ‘99 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – About 6 years ago I had open heart surgery, fortunately my IBD went into remission (any connection I wonder?) until I recovered. After the acute pain phase  I was prescribed M-or-phi-ne Sulphate, these were coated, slow release tablets. I had no problems of any kind, no I add-ict-ion, no withdrawal, In fact I still have some unused. I have been tols by several doctors that provided there is a reason for taking medication, eg PAIN, addiction is not a problem. The brain associates the medication only with pain relief, so no pain to relieve, no association, so no craving. I’ve found this to be true. I take di-hydrocedeine when necessary, which I am told is metabilised to M-or–ph-ine in the body and am certainly not addicted. Geoff   I do not want to have people come into this conversation to harass. bother, and preach, it is a question for pain management. I had to put this first line in to keep the ones out that don’t belong, and search for key words. I am going to break up this work, M-eth-a-done. Has anyone used this for pain management? My doctor is giving me the option of trying it with morp-hine (again-hyphenated to keep the searches out of here). Thanx. Please no preaching, only experiences for pain management, preferably for those with chronic pain, and intestinal disease. stevenscott —-

Response:

About 6 years ago I had open heart surgery, fortunately my IBD went into remission (any connection I wonder?) until I recovered. After the acute pain phase  I was prescribed M-or-phi-ne Sulphate, these were coated, slow release tablets. I had no problems of any kind, no I add-ict-ion, no withdrawal, In fact I still have some unused. I have been tols by several doctors that provided there is a reason for taking medication, eg PAIN, addiction is not a problem. The brain associates the medication only with pain relief, so no pain to relieve, no association, so no craving. I’ve found this to be true. I take di-hydrocedeine when necessary, which I am told is metabilised to M-or–ph-ine in the body and am certainly not addicted. Geoff

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   I do not want to have people come into this conversation to harass. bother, and preach, it is a question for pain management. I had to put this first line in to keep the ones out that don’t belong, and search for key words. I am going to break up this work, M-eth-a-done. Has anyone used this for pain management? My doctor is giving me the option of trying it with morp-hine (again-hyphenated to keep the searches out of here). Thanx. Please no preaching, only experiences for pain management, preferably for those with chronic pain, and intestinal disease. stevenscott —-

Response:

eMi, I’m on the "stronger" type of med that you talk about in your "p.s.".   It has worked for me for 5 years now, and at the same dose no less.  I see an anaesthesiologist in a pain management clinic.  They have been wonderful to me and sooo helpful.  I have my life back after being in constant pain for 32 years!  I can even ride my horse more often than not ) Linda ~~~~~~~

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was on Duragesic patches and Oxycontin b4 my surgery…I found they worked great…..made the pain bearable and I was able to function without being too loopy…..they deliver a time released dose of med and you stay comfortable for the time rather than the up and down sort of pain with the other drugs.            eMi P.S. there is also a stronger time released type of morphine related to the oxycontin …I highly suggest you talk to the pharmacist…that is where I learned about the latest pain management meds.

Response:

methadone is used to treat  heroin addecits  thats the  most iv’e heard a bout it  good luck

Response:

Did you get any irriatation from the glue used on the patch? Mike I was on Duragesic patches and Oxycontin b4 my surgery…I found they worked great…..made the pain bearable and I was able to function without being too loopy…..they deliver a time released dose of med and you stay comfortable for the time rather than the up and down sort of pain with the other drugs.           eMi P.S. there is also a stronger time released type of morphine related to the oxycontin …I highly suggest you talk to the pharmacist…that is where I learned about the latest pain management meds.

Leah’s Body Sugaring Recipe Make it yourself and save http://www.for-romance.com/sugar

Response:

They have an 1-800 number to get an info pack. Might be worth a look see. If you do look into it let us know about it. Mike – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You mean this: http://www.medtronic.com/neuro/ "Neurological and Spinal Business Overview Our neurological products include neurostimulation systems, drug delivery systems, neurosurgical implant devices, surgical access products, and diagnostic and therapeutic systems for chronic pain and neurologic, urologic, and gastrointestinal disorders. Eight businesses within our division work together to apply our therapies and products to provide comprehensive solutions to significant neurological disorders. Activa

Question:

I have taken Effexor along with Phentermine before and had no ill effects.  However, some people have experienced "seratonin syndrome" when taking Phentermine along with these types of antidepressants. * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

 I take wellbutrin and trazadone (for sleep).  I’m thinking about going to a weight loss clinic…they give phentermine.  Has anybody taken this combo. or know if it’s ok. I don’t want to waste going to the clinic if this stuff doesn’t

Response:

I agree.   I would get off the Trazodone.  There must be somthing else you can take.  I and some of my friends have taken phentermine and wellbutrin for  weight loss and it worked pretty well.  I do not suggest doing all those drugs at once.  If you are taking drugs for weight loss – try a natural method for sleeping — or visa versa. Sandra – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This is a pretty odd combo you are taking. Trazodone is one of the old syile SSRIs, jacking up your Serotonine levels. Welbutrin, amongst other things increases dopamine levels. Trazodone will make you sleep (with a bad hangover usually since the halftime is 18 hrs). In a varity of cases it will aggravate your exhaustion. (Sleep, be sleepy all day, wake up in the evening, take Trazodone to sleep, be sleepy all day and so on). Trazodone has been demonstrated to noticeably increase weight. Wellbutrin is a stimulant in a sense.  Your head is being pulled both ways it appears. Phentermine will increase your dopamine levels as well. Combined with Wellbutrin this sounds like a pretty bad idea. I take it you are diagnosed as depressed. Phentermine has shown interaction here and from what I have heard is contraindicated. Besides all of that, if you already have problems sleeping Phentermine will make this situation only worse. Anyhow, from the sound of it your shrink is really out of ideas as to what to prescribe to you and throws all sorts of neurotransmitter manipulators at you. I have been in a situation like yours and dropped the guy and went looking for someone that had better sense. For eample newer antidepressants such as Serzone will let you sleep similar to Trazodone but apparently causes no weight gain. Before you go into a pharmaceutically based weight program look at what you are doing to your body and mind today. Making modifications there may already have the desired effect instead of pumping even more chemicals into you. I am not a licensed psychiatrist, medical doctor of any sort, a layperson in every sense of the word. Nothing I state should be construed as medical advice. Always seek the advice of a licensed physician. Just a disclaimer. I take wellbutrin and trazadone (for sleep).  I’m thinking about going to a weight loss clinic…they give phentermine.  Has anybody taken this combo. or know if it’s ok. I don’t want to waste going to the clinic if this stuff doesn’t

Before you buy.

Response:

I started taking phentermine with Trazadone and Wellbutrin but quickly stopped the Trazadone. I didn’t like the way I felt in the morning and I was also concerned about the combination with the other two drugs. Now I just take 300 mg of Wellbutrin and 37.5 of Adipex. I have really been amazed at the results so far. I have a long time problem with depression and it has practically gone away since I started. All my obsessive and compulsive behavior about food has also disappeared. To me this is magic. I do have a problem sometimes getting to sleep considering that both drugs are stimulants but I am not working right now so it’s not a big deal. I would not advise taking all three meds. Debbie

Response:

Tetris I would be very interested in what you find out about 5 htp from your new doctor. I noticed a lead from Barbara’s obesity site for a Md. ( dietmedications.com/)who has supposedly worked out a good formulation for 5 htp. Supposedly he say’s to combine it with the drug you mentioned (caridopa) and possible pendolol . the purpose is to slow the absorption of the  5 HTP. It is expensive about ($2.50) cents a day the best I can figure. If you find out anything about this or anything that can replace part of fen/phen that is banned we all would be really grateful. Thanks Roy

Response:

I too have been searching for a combination diet drug therapy since phen-fen went away.  I’ve  tried phentermine by itself, phen-prozac (it made me extremely drowsy even at low doses), Meridia, and Xenical.  None of these worked very well.  My current doctor refuses to prescribe any combination of medications.  He is afraid.  I can’t say I blame him all that much with all the paranoia over lawsuits.  However, I am still 100 pounds overweight and desperate. After doing some research, I think that phentermine/5-HTP just might be the answer that I’m looking for.  The kind of 5-HTP I’m thinking of is the pharmaceutical grade (USP – United States Pharmacopoeia), available only by prescription at certain compounding pharmacies.  The USP 5-HTP is more expensive (but still much cheaper than Meridia or Xenical) and is synthetic.  The over the counter variety is derived naturally from the seeds of the Griffonia plant.  I’m thinking that the USP 5-HTP would be free of the Peak-X and Peak-E contaminants that the Mayo Clinic made such a fuss about a year or two ago in six unidentified brands of over the counter 5-HTP. I have experimented with over the counter 5-HTP and tyrosine.  The 5-HTP (100 mg), takes the place of fenfluramine and the tyrosine (500 mg) takes the place of phentermine.  This combination reasonably imitates the effect of phen-fen for me without unpleasant side effects, except dry mouth and occasional headaches.  The only drawback is the short half-life of the 5-HTP.  The appetite suppressing effect lasts only about two and half hours.  Obviously this is not enough to be a practical weight loss solution. Next week, I will see a new doctor.  He has a good reputation for being very progressive.  I plan to discuss 5-HTP/phentermine with him.  I will ask if there is any way to extend its very short lived effect.  I have heard that the prescription medication carbidopa might help with this. I will post the results of my visit if anyone is interested. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I agree.   I would get off the Trazodone.  There must be somthing else you can take.  I and some of my friends have taken phentermine and wellbutrin for  weight loss and it worked pretty well.  I do not suggest doing all those drugs at once.  If you are taking drugs for weight loss – try a natural method for sleeping — or visa versa. Sandra This is a pretty odd combo you are taking. Trazodone is one of the old syile SSRIs, jacking up your Serotonine levels. Welbutrin, amongst other things increases dopamine levels. Trazodone will make you sleep (with a bad hangover usually since the halftime is 18 hrs). In a varity of cases it will aggravate your exhaustion. (Sleep, be sleepy all day, wake up in the evening, take Trazodone to sleep, be sleepy all day and so on). Trazodone has been demonstrated to noticeably increase weight. Wellbutrin is a stimulant in a sense.  Your head is being pulled both ways it appears. Phentermine will increase your dopamine levels as well. Combined with Wellbutrin this sounds like a pretty bad idea. I take it you are diagnosed as depressed. Phentermine has shown interaction here and from what I have heard is contraindicated. Besides all of that, if you already have problems sleeping Phentermine will make this situation only worse. Anyhow, from the sound of it your shrink is really out of ideas as to what to prescribe to you and throws all sorts of neurotransmitter manipulators at you. I have been in a situation like yours and dropped the guy and went looking for someone that had better sense. For eample newer antidepressants such as Serzone will let you sleep similar to Trazodone but apparently causes no weight gain. Before you go into a pharmaceutically based weight program look at what you are doing to your body and mind today. Making modifications there may already have the desired effect instead of pumping even more chemicals into you. I am not a licensed psychiatrist, medical doctor of any sort, a layperson in every sense of the word. Nothing I state should be construed as medical advice. Always seek the advice of a licensed physician. Just a disclaimer. I take wellbutrin and trazadone (for sleep).  I’m thinking about going to a weight loss clinic…they give phentermine.  Has anybody taken this combo. or know if it’s ok. I don’t want to waste going to the clinic if this stuff doesn’t Before you buy.

Response:

This is a pretty odd combo you are taking. Trazodone is one of the old syile SSRIs, jacking up your Serotonine levels. Welbutrin, amongst other things increases dopamine levels. Trazodone will make you sleep (with a bad hangover usually since the halftime is 18 hrs). In a varity of cases it will aggravate your exhaustion. (Sleep, be sleepy all day, wake up in the evening, take Trazodone to sleep, be sleepy all day and so on). Trazodone has been demonstrated to noticeably increase weight. Wellbutrin is a stimulant in a sense.  Your head is being pulled both ways it appears. Phentermine will increase your dopamine levels as well. Combined with Wellbutrin this sounds like a pretty bad idea. I take it you are diagnosed as depressed. Phentermine has shown interaction here and from what I have heard is contraindicated. Besides all of that, if you already have problems sleeping Phentermine will make this situation only worse. Anyhow, from the sound of it your shrink is really out of ideas as to what to prescribe to you and throws all sorts of neurotransmitter manipulators at you. I have been in a situation like yours and dropped the guy and went looking for someone that had better sense. For eample newer antidepressants such as Serzone will let you sleep similar to Trazodone but apparently causes no weight gain. Before you go into a pharmaceutically based weight program look at what you are doing to your body and mind today. Making modifications there may already have the desired effect instead of pumping even more chemicals into you. I am not a licensed psychiatrist, medical doctor of any sort, a layperson in every sense of the word. Nothing I state should be construed as medical advice. Always seek the advice of a licensed physician. Just a disclaimer. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I take wellbutrin and trazadone (for sleep).  I’m thinking about going to a weight loss clinic…they give phentermine.  Has anybody taken this combo. or know if it’s ok. I don’t want to waste going to the clinic if this stuff doesn’t

Response:

Question:

Is it possible that drinking alcohol while on prozac can make you MORE depressed? Thanks,

Response:

Besides, it makes people act in ways that are, afterwards, most depressing to recall. Darn! Ami

Oh my! What an opportunity, what a story…….Damn it! Loyalty prevails. Strange that I can remember though — :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: AntiEverything Attitude~Incarnate :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: The Waffle and Crepe House ( This Space For Rent )

Response:

Is it possible that drinking alcohol while on prozac can make you MORE depressed? Thanks,

since alcohol is a depressant,  i think it is a safe assumption. dennis Oh! somewhere in this favored land the sun is shining bright; The band is playing somewhere, and somewhere hearts are light And somewhere men are laughing, and somewhere children shout But there is no joy in Mudville — mighty Casey has Struck Out

Response:

: Is it possible that drinking alcohol while on prozac can make you MORE : depressed? I’m on Zoloft, Prozac’s next of kin. I found out that according to the manufacturer of Prozac, it is possible to have a FEW drinks. That’s the trick. I test-drank slowly to see how much of an interaction there is with Zoloft. It took surprisingly little to get drunk, and without meds, I’m a heavy drinker. In short, if you insist on drinking on Prozac, be careful. You do so at your own risk. — CAUTION: Email Spam Killer in use. Leave this line in your reply! 152680         "Sometimes the best psychiatrist is a flaky cardiologist" 2125733 bytes of spam mail deleted.           http://www.wwa.com/~nospam/

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : Is it possible that drinking alcohol while on prozac can make you MORE : depressed? I’m on Zoloft, Prozac’s next of kin. I found out that according to the manufacturer of Prozac, it is possible to have a FEW drinks. That’s the trick. I test-drank slowly to see how much of an interaction there is with Zoloft. It took surprisingly little to get drunk, and without meds, I’m a heavy drinker. In short, if you insist on drinking on Prozac, be careful. You do so at your own risk. — CAUTION: Email Spam Killer in use. Leave this line in your reply! 152680         "Sometimes the best psychiatrist is a flaky cardiologist" 2125733 bytes of spam mail deleted.           http://www.wwa.com/~nospam/

I too am on Zoloft, but have not had any drinks since I started back in January.  I was warned that it would effect a person just the way you described it.  I’m not sure I could handle it and really don’t need the *extra* depressive influence right now. Just out of curiosity, how few drinks did it take?  Was there any after effects, like a bad hang over? Chuck (now drinking vicariously through others)

Response:

Oh my! What an opportunity, what a story…….Damn it! Loyalty prevails. Strange that I can remember though — :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: AntiEverything Attitude~Incarnate :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: The Waffle and Crepe House ( This Space For Rent ) sounds like an opportunity for black mail.  make her pay you off in kisses.

Nothing to blackmail with Dennis I’m afraid. It was me who had to much to drink and it was Amalie who prevented me from making a fool of myself. she’s too good for me and I don’t deserve her. AE

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Besides, it makes people act in ways that are, afterwards, most depressing to recall. Darn! Ami Oh my! What an opportunity, what a story…….Damn it! Loyalty prevails. Strange that I can remember though — :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: AntiEverything Attitude~Incarnate :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: The Waffle and Crepe House ( This Space For Rent )

sounds like an opportunity for black mail.  make her pay you off in kisses. dennis Oh! somewhere in this favored land the sun is shining bright; The band is playing somewhere, and somewhere hearts are light And somewhere men are laughing, and somewhere children shout But there is no joy in Mudville — mighty Casey has Struck Out

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Oh my! What an opportunity, what a story…….Damn it! Loyalty prevails. Strange that I can remember though — :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: AntiEverything Attitude~Incarnate :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: The Waffle and Crepe House ( This Space For Rent ) sounds like an opportunity for black mail.  make her pay you off in kisses. Nothing to blackmail with Dennis I’m afraid. It was me who had to much to drink and it was Amalie who prevented me from making a fool of myself. she’s too good for me and I don’t deserve her. AE

oh.  then bribe her with kisses dennis Oh! somewhere in this favored land the sun is shining bright; The band is playing somewhere, and somewhere hearts are light And somewhere men are laughing, and somewhere children shout But there is no joy in Mudville — mighty Casey has Struck Out

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : I too am on Zoloft, but have not had any drinks since I started back in : January.  I was warned that it would effect a person just the way you : described it.  I’m not sure I could handle it and really don’t need the : *extra* depressive influence right now. : Just out of curiosity, how few drinks did it take?  Was there any after : effects, like a bad hang over? It took only about 6 or 8 drinks over several hours to get drunk, and the drunk feels sort of "glittery" too. In both tests, I woke up pretty early considering, and the hangover is more or less in proportion to the drinking itself. A possible hazard is "serotonin syndrome" at least at higher doses of the Zoloft. My theory (for my liver) is that the liver goes after the booze first and the Zoloft hangs around longer until booze-sobriety. Of course, your liver is different, and you might have a different reaction. It would probably work to go on a Zoloft holiday during a weekend drinking session. Better yet, avoid drinking in the first place. A wierd side-effect with Zoloft not involving booze involves the voice. I’m multi-accented, and one accent, my drinking accent, requires I change the sound of my voice to add "distortion", which has interfered with singing. Now, I don’t do that one accent as well, but my voice doesn’t break up when singing. This side-effect is unique to my exact voice, and probably doesn’t affect anyone who is single-accented. — CAUTION: Email Spam Killer in use. Leave this line in your reply! 152680         "Sometimes the best psychiatrist is a flaky cardiologist" 2142564 bytes of spam mail deleted.           http://www.wwa.com/~nospam/

you should see that alchohol can provide valuable insights into reality, Mike

Response:

: I too am on Zoloft, but have not had any drinks since I started back in : January.  I was warned that it would effect a person just the way you : described it.  I’m not sure I could handle it and really don’t need the : *extra* depressive influence right now. : Just out of curiosity, how few drinks did it take?  Was there any after : effects, like a bad hang over? It took only about 6 or 8 drinks over several hours to get drunk, and the drunk feels sort of "glittery" too. In both tests, I woke up pretty early considering, and the hangover is more or less in proportion to the drinking itself. A possible hazard is "serotonin syndrome" at least at higher doses of the Zoloft. My theory (for my liver) is that the liver goes after the booze first and the Zoloft hangs around longer until booze-sobriety. Of course, your liver is different, and you might have a different reaction. It would probably work to go on a Zoloft holiday during a weekend drinking session. Better yet, avoid drinking in the first place. A wierd side-effect with Zoloft not involving booze involves the voice. I’m multi-accented, and one accent, my drinking accent, requires I change the sound of my voice to add "distortion", which has interfered with singing. Now, I don’t do that one accent as well, but my voice doesn’t break up when singing. This side-effect is unique to my exact voice, and probably doesn’t affect anyone who is single-accented. — CAUTION: Email Spam Killer in use. Leave this line in your reply! 152680         "Sometimes the best psychiatrist is a flaky cardiologist" 2142564 bytes of spam mail deleted.           http://www.wwa.com/~nospam/

Response:

Just out of curiosity, how few drinks did it take?  Was there any after effects, like a bad hang over?

I too have been on Zoloft for 18 months. I still drink wine and beer, finding that after 3 glasses of wine for dinner, I seem quite intoxicated. Does drinking enhance my depressed mood? I believe that the day after, my mood seems more depressed than usual, plus my sleep is interupted during the night after drinking, making me feel more tired and irratable. And forget about sex <g..my SO needs a two-by-four to whack me into a sexual realm <OUCH!!

Response:

I was wondering about this subject.  See ever since I went on ad’s (just Effexor and now Prozac) I seem to have lost any desire for drinking. (of course, supplementing that with pain killers is probably a good reason) Anyway, when I was in Vegas, I just wanted to get good and drunk and I couldn’t.  I had two Banana Colada’s (oh my god, they are heavenly)…got buzzed then had to take a nap.  It’s weird. Absolutely no desire what so ever to drink.  It justs make me feel lousy.  I wonder if that is due to ad’s cuz before them I drank all the time (well not all the time) but I was in college and partied quite a bit. ?  Anyone else find this happening? Now……if I can only get the same effect with the pain killers! Nik They say, "she’s crazy as anyone can be" That’s what they say, they say of me…….Sheryl Crow "On the Outside"

Response:

Okay…couldn’t find the original question but I know its one that I myself asked many times (what happens when you drink..on prozac..etc.) I have been on Prozac for almost two years..and have been an alcoholic for about 6 mos (yes I’m about to go into treatment..no worries). I never found that drinking interacted with the drug itself in any way…but I know that as a depressive…drinking for me was not such a good idea (I am invited to every college party..not because people like me..but because my screaming and/or crying jags seem to liven up any game of as*hole) So do I recommend drinking on Prozac? Who cares! I DON"T recommend drinking if you are sick..and being on prozac would imply that…. CAUTION: Email Spam Killer in use. Leave this line in your reply! 152680         "Sometimes the best psychiatrist is a flaky cardiologist" 2142564 bytes of spam mail deleted.           http://www.wwa.com/~nospam/

Response:

I think the fact I was off to bed anyway probably meant that I slept through the worst of it ! The good feeling the next day was probably just the tail-end of the effect. I’m undecided whether to try again. I’m over my depression now thankfully but am being weaned off the pills slowly. My chance to do this again will be gone soon ! Steve the Smurf – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – hi steve i’ve been on prozac for months now. i hardly ever drink anymore but i’ve certainly noticed the a wilder, deeper drunkenness than ever before. i had blackouts on champagne cocktails and get very drowsy quickly. pete Hi folks, well last week I made a mistake and had a large vodka before bedtime , forgetting that I had taken my Prozac earlier ! Well, I felt wonderful, I was buzzing all day the next day and had a wonderful sleep that night. After looking at the info leaflet that came with the drugs I noticed it says " avoid alcohol." Has anyone else had prozac with alcohol? Will it do me any harm if I do it again ( not constantly just occasionally !) Steve the Smurf — ICQ 12996897. Before you buy.

– ICQ 12996897. Before you buy.

Response:

Just curious.. does this happen with other anti-depressents? I am on Celexa, Wellbutrin, and a little bit of Trazadone.. does it have an effect on any one of those medications? -Bernie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – hi steve i’ve been on prozac for months now. i hardly ever drink anymore but i’ve certainly noticed the a wilder, deeper drunkenness than ever before. i had blackouts on champagne cocktails and get very drowsy quickly. pete Hi folks, well last week I made a mistake and had a large vodka before bedtime , forgetting that I had taken my Prozac earlier ! Well, I felt wonderful, I was buzzing all day the next day and had a wonderful sleep that night. After looking at the info leaflet that came with the drugs I noticed it says " avoid alcohol." Has anyone else had prozac with alcohol? Will it do me any harm if I do it again ( not constantly just occasionally !) Steve the Smurf — ICQ 12996897. Before you buy.

Response:

Just curious.. does this happen with other anti-depressents? I am on Celexa, Wellbutrin, and a little bit of Trazadone.. does it have an effect on any one of those medications?

i just did a short trial of wellbutrin, and while i was researching it i came across repeated warnings that alcohol can increase the risk of seizure while on this drug. i wouldn’t drink while taking it if i were you. Erik Erik Martin Schneider rhetorician of sorts http://www.concentric.net/~catdoc

Response:

 Hi folks, well last week I made a mistake and had a large vodka before bedtime , forgetting that I had taken my Prozac earlier ! Well, I felt wonderful, I was buzzing all day the next day and had a wonderful sleep that night. After looking at the info leaflet that came with the drugs I noticed it says " avoid alcohol." Has anyone else had prozac with alcohol? Will it do me any harm if I do it again ( not constantly just occasionally !) Steve the Smurf — ICQ 12996897. Before you buy.

Response:

Has anyone else had prozac with alcohol? Will it do me any harm if I do it again ( not constantly just occasionally !) Steve the Smurf

Hi Steve, Recently I decided to see what happened if I combined my Prozac (40 mg at that time) with about one standard drink of a vodka, wine and lemon mix (bottled, so I know it was mixed properly) and a tiny bit of Bayleys Irish Cream (which was disgusting!), spead out over several hours at a party. I felt fine for a while, but according to my father he could see in my eyes that I was smashed!  About 4 hours after I stopped drinking I started vomiting and was up repeatedly during the night.  I still felt tired and sick the next day. I’ll admit, the facts that I’m female, have a small body size, and am fairly inexperienced with alcohol didn’t help, but I should not have been that bad after two standard drinks (maximum!) I purposely mixed alcohol and prozac in a safe, controlled environment to see how it would effect me.  All I can say is NEVER AGAIN!  For me, it just wasn’t worth it. If it didn’t effect you too badly, drinking occasionally and in a controlled way shouldn’t hurt.  But only occasionally and only one or two drinks, because in my opinion, since alcohol is a depressant anyway, more than that could be dangerous. Just my two cents worth.  I hope this helps. Kylie. * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

hi steve i’ve been on prozac for months now. i hardly ever drink anymore but i’ve certainly noticed the a wilder, deeper drunkenness than ever before. i had blackouts on champagne cocktails and get very drowsy quickly. pete – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi folks, well last week I made a mistake and had a large vodka before bedtime , forgetting that I had taken my Prozac earlier ! Well, I felt wonderful, I was buzzing all day the next day and had a wonderful sleep that night. After looking at the info leaflet that came with the drugs I noticed it says " avoid alcohol." Has anyone else had prozac with alcohol? Will it do me any harm if I do it again ( not constantly just occasionally !) Steve the Smurf — ICQ 12996897. Before you buy.

Response:

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -kmaze…@aol.com (Kmaze001) wrote:

In article <4ra1ft$3…@usenetz1.news.prodigy.com, BWHM…@prodigy.com (Kathryn Taubert) writes: I’m not trying to be contentious here, but virtually none of the people with TS that I know well enough to ask have EVER had a problem with bedwetting. And I know a lot of ‘em. That may be so.  Sometimes the bedwetting isn’t with the person who has TS, but somewhere else in the family. Two of my three children have TS;

my

mom has had bouts of eneuresis (albeit infrequently) throughout her

life

(also a history of migraines).  I have myself have experienced none of these (nor do I have TS). Regards, Kim

That makes sense. Bedwetting is not uncommon in the population at large, so it would follow suit that it would be found elsewhere in the family. Like brown eyes in lefties, as mentioned before. KAT

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

  kmaze…@aol.com (Kmaze001) writes:  In article <4ra1ft$3…@usenetz1.news.prodigy.com, BWHM…@prodigy.com  (Kathryn Taubert) writes:  I’m not trying to be contentious here, but virtually none of the people  with TS that I know well enough to ask have EVER had a problem with  bedwetting.  And I know a lot of ‘em.  That may be so.  Sometimes the bedwetting isn’t with the person who has  TS, but somewhere else in the family. Two of my three children have TS; my  mom has had bouts of eneuresis (albeit infrequently) throughout her life  (also a history of migraines).  I have myself have experienced none of  these (nor do I have TS).  Regards,  Kim

I’ve heard of the problems with both encopresis and eneuresis in a couple of children, seemingly related to meds taken for TS.  In a child who already has eneuresis AND attention deficit, I would think Impramine would be a good choice, since it’s used in ADD but was first used for bedwetting. Jeanne

Response:

Sorry, but your neurologist does not know what he is talking about.  These kids have _huge_ problems with both bedwetting and insomnia.  The big purple book mentions insomnia as part of TS, and I don’t recall about the wetting or not.   We used DDAVP for a while–but it is terribly expensive.  It is a nasal spray about, $115 for a 3 week supply, depends on how many squirts you have to give a night.  But it quit working for us after about 2 1/2 months.   We have had better luck with some of the tricyclic antidepressants.   Desipramine and Anafranil both helped with this for us.  My son is on anafranil now and the bedwetting is nearly gone. We are giving Melatonin for sleeping right now.  Garret takes about 2mg at bedtime.  He sleeps pretty well, but still wakes up around 4:00!!!!  On tv I saw something advertised called Melatrex (or something like that).  They said it was a long-acting Melatonin, so it would have a night-long effect.  It sounded _great_ to me, but our health food store is small and doesn’t carry much.  The only thing with Melatonin is it is a bit controversial because the jury is still out on long-term health affects from taking it.  And because it is a nutritional supplement, it is not tested by the FDA.

Response:

There are 2 things that you might look into: 1.  Dr. David Cummings wrote a book called "Tourette Syndrome and Human Behavior" .   In this book, he mentions bed wetting as part of the

overall

big picture with people with TS bedwetting or relatives within the

family

tree having this problem.

Comings is wrong here. There is no data to support this assertion. Bed wetting is COMMON amongst children under stress. And those NOT under any particular stress as well. It usually passes after a time, in the great majority of cases. I don’t know where the H… he gets this stuff. It’s like saying that people who are left-handed have brown eyes somewhere in their family tree. Brown eyes are the most common ones. Of COURSE there will be brown eyes somewhere in the family of a left-handed person. jeezzzzz I have TS. I have a male cousin with un DXed TS. I have a sister with bi- polar and a slew of other things. I have another sister with probably OCD and ADD. Dysthymia runs in my family. And so on. NONE of us ever had a problem with bed wetting. Were it so, believe me, I’d have known about it. KAT in CT

Response:

Sorry, but your neurologist does not know what he is talking about.  

These

kids have _huge_ problems with both bedwetting and insomnia.  The big purple book mentions insomnia as part of TS, and I don’t recall about

the

wetting or not.  

No, again. ‘Us Kids" do NOT necessarily have a problem with bedwetting that is DIRECTLY related to the TS gene or genes. And if by the "big purple book" you mean the DSRM-IV, you won’t see bedwetting listed as a symptom of TS because it ISN"T a symptom of TS. KAT in CT

Response:

Don’t you think this is like so many other parts of TS.  Some people have just TS.  Some people have TS and OCD.  Some people have just OCD.  Some people have TS and bi-polar.  My son has TS, OCD, and Asperger’s.  Some people with TS have bedwetting, and some do not. All the people I know with TS also had bedwetting problems as children. Darcie

Response:

In article <31D547D2.2…@innet.be

, Tamara Foubert <pub00…@innet.be

writes:

The neurologist says there is no connection between TS and bedwetting and that the fact that he is taking Orap is of no influence. He says that stress is the major cause of bedwetting. But since he’s in a LD school, we managed to reduce stress considerably.

I have read and heard from a psychologist very knowledgeable about TS that the two are very much related.  Sleep disorders, bedwetting, and night terrors are all disorders of arousal that are somehow connected to TS.  In fact, when she was taking a history to see if  my two children had TS, one of her first questions was whether there was a history of bedwetting in our family (there was, as it happened).  Good luck; I’d get another opinion if I were you. Regards, Kim

Response:

My 8 year old son with TS and ADD wet his bed every night until last summer.  We got an alarm that clips to his pajama top, and has wires connected to a kind of snap that attached to his underwear.  As soon as he started wetting the alarm would sound.  I would get him up and take him to the bathroom, then together we would change the sheets on his bed.  After about a month, the bedwetting stopped!  It came back again a couple months ago when he was taking Risperdal.  As soon as we stopped the Risperdal, the bedwetting stopped again. I don’t know about whether there is a link between bedwetting and TS/ADD. He hadn’t been diagnosed yet when we consulted the pediatrician about the bedwetting.  The doctor did say bedwetting seems to run in families, and there was a history of it in both my husband’s and my family. Good luck! Mary

Response:

I have read and heard from a psychologist very knowledgeable about TS

that

the two are very much related.  Sleep disorders, bedwetting, and night terrors are all disorders of arousal that are somehow connected to TS.  

In

fact, when she was taking a history to see if  my two children had TS,

one

of her first questions was whether there was a history of bedwetting in our family (there was, as it happened).  Good luck; I’d get another opinion if I were you.

Kim, ask your psychologist where she got this information, that you’d like to see the data. I suspect she’ll dig up the Comings book. I personally would like VERY much to know what hard data she has to support this assertion re: TS and bedwetting. Ask her to provide you, if she will,  with her source of information. I’ll look it up myself. KAT in CT

Response:

All the people I know with TS also had bedwetting problems as children.

Darcie

I’m not trying to be contentious here, but virtually none of the people with TS that I know well enough to ask have EVER had a problem with bedwetting. And I know a lot of ‘em. KAT in CT

Response:

In article <4r627v$1…@usenetz1.news.prodigy.com

, BWHM…@prodigy.com

(Kathryn Taubert) writes:

No, again. ‘Us Kids" do NOT necessarily have a problem with bedwetting that is DIRECTLY related to the TS gene or genes. And if by the "big purple book" you mean the DSRM-IV, you won’t see bedwetting listed as a symptom of TS because it ISN"T a symptom of TS.

Kat, Please look at the original post.  The question posed was *whether* there’s a connection.  It was not whether bedwetting is a symptom of TS or whether bedwetting is *directly* related to the gene.  Maybe the connection is as simple as some folks with TS are under more stress and thus have a higher incidence of enueresis (sp?).  In any case, I have heard about this through a local psychologist who is highly respected for her work with TS.  That doesn’t mean she’s right either, but let’s keep an open mind here.  Other related problems (the so-called disorders of arousal) include migraines, sleepwalking, bruxism, and night terrors. Regards, Kim

Response:

In article <4r8rp6$…@newsbf02.news.aol.com

, kmaze…@aol.com (Kmaze001)

writes: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

I have read and heard from a psychologist very knowledgeable about TS

that

the two are very much related.  Sleep disorders, bedwetting, and night terrors are all disorders of arousal that are somehow connected to TS.

In

fact, when she was taking a history to see if  my two children had TS,

one

of her first questions was whether there was a history of bedwetting in our family (there was, as it happened).  Good luck; I’d get another opinion if I were you. Regards, Kim

The problem is that there is no research that has been done on this subject – just a few docs that have tried to find a connection.  What needs to be done is for a data base to be formed with sleep disorders, bedwetting and TS.  Research studies will then need to be done to substantiate this theory.  There may very well be a relationship, but bed wetting isn’t found in any people with TS that I know.  I do know many people without TS that are perfectly normal in every other way that are bed wetters, and have no history of TS in their families. Sleep disorders, on the other hand, seem to be present in a significant number of people with TS, so bed wetting in that respect, could be a result of a sleep problem.  Melatonin has helped many with TS, and Dr. Roger Freeman has touted it as effective in helping the sleep problems in TS.  This makes sense since melatonin is formed from serotonin, and serotonin has been found to be low in a significant number of people with TS.  It is very interesting that antidepressants are used for bed wetters.  They may help by raising serotonin, or maybe they stimulate the body not to go into a deep sleep.  It is my understanding that melatonin just helps the body fall asleep, and doesn’t effect the deepness of the sleep, so that the person feels refreshed and not groggy upon waking.  Too much melatonin is not good, however, and there is some speculation that it may delay puberty.  My son wears earplugs to bed to screen out noises to aid him in going to sleep. Others have equally ingenious techniques in falling asleep – it is highly individual.   Bonnie Grimaldi  in Columbus, Ohio

Response:

Tamara My son is also 8 and wets his bed, but he does not have insomnia. In fact he sleeps so deeply we have trouble waking him. We had always attributed the wetting to his inability to wake himself in time to get to the batrhroom. The diapers will not help him stop. They will reinforce your expectation that he WILL wet the bed every night. David Grupper David Grupper, Brooklyn, NY

Response:

In article <4ra1ft$3…@usenetz1.news.prodigy.com

, BWHM…@prodigy.com

(Kathryn Taubert) writes:

I’m not trying to be contentious here, but virtually none of the people with TS that I know well enough to ask have EVER had a problem with bedwetting. And I know a lot of ‘em. KAT in CT

 Kat,  I have TS and wet the bed up to the age of 14 although with less frequency as I reached that age. It may not be TS but related to some comorbid disorder. I always was a deep sleeper and I’m sure that had a lot to do with it. Now I wonder (and should have asked the doc) if at 41 my enlarged prostrate has any connection with my bedwetting and my bodies attempts at stopping it by overworking the prostrate.  There is no known history of bedwetting in my family but then again I never asked . There is also no known TS in my family but other movement disorders tend to run in our family. Things like essential tremor and spastic torticollis (part of the Dystonia family of disorders).      Wize

Response:

It has been my experience (re-inforced by research) that bed-wetting of this type is physiological.  The child has virtually no control over the problem.  It seems to me that to take any action that puts the responsibility of control on the child can only lead to fear or rebellion or (worst of all) damaged self-esteem.  My daughter was a bed-wetter, as were many of her relatives in past generations (going quite far back) and all in the same pattern, with the last episodes around age 12.  In my daughter’s case, I tried a homeopathic treatment combined with control of her food allergies.  No more bed-wetting.  My son would go into a frighteningly deep sleep occasionally and lose control of his bowels (still not waking up) and I would clean him, his bed, change both, and sstill he would not really wake up.  Obviously,this is not normal.  I tracked that one down to dairy products, especially late in the day.  He still sleep-walks tho’.  How could these poor sweeties ever be held responsible for controlling these symptoms without damaging their self-image, their self-esteem, their self-confidence, or creating an anxiety pproblem?  Thank God and the companies,for the large and adult size diapers. We did stop needing them, although during my pregnancies, I had flare ups of my bowelproblems and felt a desire to have the diapers around!

Response:

In article <4ra1ft$3…@usenetz1.news.prodigy.com

, BWHM…@prodigy.com

(Kathryn Taubert) writes:

I’m not trying to be contentious here, but virtually none of the people with TS that I know well enough to ask have EVER had a problem with bedwetting. And I know a lot of ‘em.

That may be so.  Sometimes the bedwetting isn’t with the person who has TS, but somewhere else in the family. Two of my three children have TS; my mom has had bouts of eneuresis (albeit infrequently) throughout her life (also a history of migraines).  I have myself have experienced none of these (nor do I have TS). Regards, Kim

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Kat, Please look at the original post.  The question posed was *whether* there’s a connection.  It was not whether bedwetting is a symptom of TS

or

whether bedwetting is *directly* related to the gene.  Maybe the connection is as simple as some folks with TS are under more stress and thus have a higher incidence of enueresis (sp?).  In any case, I have heard about this through a local psychologist who is highly respected

for

her work with TS.  That doesn’t mean she’s right either, but let’s keep

an

open mind here.  Other related problems (the so-called disorders of arousal) include migraines, sleepwalking, bruxism, and night terrors. Regards, Kim

Kim, I did look at the original posts, and it was evident in what I saw there that this "connection" was being, if not engraved in stone, assumed to a disturbing degree. I’ve no doubt the the psychologist who has said this to you is reputable. But even reputable people can be wrong. And without caution, these kinds of posts end up making "fact" which is, at present, no more than speculation on the parts of a relatively few individuals, most of whom have read a book with assertions that have NOT been substantiated by the hard data. The comment on the order of "These kids have lots of problems with bedwetting" is suggestive of a direct connection between TS and bedwetting. And, in my personal experience, that’s NOT the case. Phrases such as "these kids" are a bit misleading. They suggest a commonality that has to do with "their disorders."  And, on line, suggestions have a way of becoming fact without further elucidation, and careful wordsmithing. My mind is, and always has been open. So much so, in fact, that I don’t hold as fact the words of any clinician who suggests something that may be either wrong or misleading, no matter how much I like him/her. KAT in CT

Response:

My son is 8 and is dx’d with ADD and TS. Beside tics, mild ocd and echolalia, he also has severe insomnia and wets his bed every night. The neurologist says there is no connection between TS and bedwetting and that the fact that he is taking Orap is of no influence. He says that stress is the major cause of bedwetting. But since he’s in a LD school, we managed to reduce stress considerably.

Does anyone have experience with the combination of TS, insomnia and bedwetting ? There are 2 things that you might look into: 1.  Dr. David Cummings wrote a book called "Tourette Syndrome and Human Behavior" .   In this book, he mentions bed wetting as part of the overall big picture with people with TS bedwetting or relatives within the family tree having this problem. 2.  Is your neurologist knowledgable about TS?  Have you checked his/her Cirriculum Vitae(professional resume) to see how well versed he/she is on the subject.  There are neurologists out there that will still give a TS patient Haldol because that is the only medication that the neurologist knows to perscribe to someone with TS.  Good luck.   Fred in denver

Response:

My son is 8 and is dx’d with ADD and TS. Beside tics, mild ocd and echolalia, he also has severe insomnia and wets his bed every night. He sometimes stays awake till 2 AM and when he finally falls asleep, he wets his bed and wakes up again ! The neurologist says there is no connection between TS and bedwetting and that the fact that he is taking Orap is of no influence. He says that stress is the major cause of bedwetting. But since he’s in a LD school, we managed to reduce stress considerably. Does anyone have experience with the combination of TS, insomnia and bedwetting ? We tried every possible method, but nothing helps. We are now so desperate that we make him wear diapers again, just to have some sleep. I know that is not recommended, but life is hard enough for him trying to cope with TS… Tamara

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