Question:

i wake up every morning and my whole mouth is covered with a sticky grayish-white stuff, i dont have it when i go to bed at night but its there when i wake up in the morning.  it covers the inside of my cheeks, my tongue and now my tonsils. also i woke up this week with a horrendous sore thoat (tonsil) and was wondering if yeast can cause this.  also my tongue  whole mouth is pretty sore all the time. i’m on proventil, serevent, flovent and singulair. how do you know if its yeast? and any good links out there with pictures? thanks for any advice, will

It sure sounds like yeast infection [candida]. You will need a prescription antifungal like Nystatin. Here are pictures: http://www.gastrolab.net/pa-047.htm Candia Oesophagitis due to Treatment with Inhalated Steroids Candidiasis (Cutaneous) To minimize future occurances, be sure to use an AeroChamber spacer with your Flovent MDI; rinse and gargle after inhaling and drink a glass of water to wash residue down. Ellis

Response:

Since you’re on inhaled steroids and have these symptoms, it’s a pretty good bet that you have thrush.  This is a fungal infection that can be fought with Nystatin mouthwash.  But why guess?  It’s worth a visit to your doctor.  Good luck. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – i wake up every morning and my whole mouth is covered with a sticky grayish-white stuff, i dont have it when i go to bed at night but its there when i wake up in the morning.  it covers the inside of my cheeks, my tongue and now my tonsils. also i woke up this week with a horrendous sore thoat (tonsil) and was wondering if yeast can cause this.  also my tongue  whole mouth is pretty sore all the time. i’m on proventil, serevent, flovent and singulair. how do you know if its yeast? and any good links out there with pictures? thanks for any advice, will

Response:

i wake up every morning and my whole mouth is covered with a sticky grayish-white stuff, i dont have it when i go to bed at night but its there when i wake up in the morning.  it covers the inside of my cheeks, my tongue and now my tonsils. also i woke up this week with a horrendous sore thoat (tonsil) and was wondering if yeast can cause this.  also my tongue  whole mouth is pretty sore all the time. i’m on proventil, serevent, flovent and singulair. how do you know if its yeast? and any good links out there with pictures? thanks for any advice, will

Response:

Sounds like it to me… It is very painful I hear… I’ve seen it only on my son so I couldn’t attest to that.  I would check it out with your doctor…there are some very good medications to get rid of it… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – i wake up every morning and my whole mouth is covered with a sticky grayish-white stuff, i dont have it when i go to bed at night but its there when i wake up in the morning.  it covers the inside of my cheeks, my tongue and now my tonsils. also i woke up this week with a horrendous sore thoat (tonsil) and was wondering if yeast can cause this.  also my tongue  whole mouth is pretty sore all the time. i’m on proventil, serevent, flovent and singulair. how do you know if its yeast? and any good links out there with pictures? thanks for any advice, will

Response:

Question:

I also brush my teeth after taking my flovent – I have yet to get Thrush Tim Washington State

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : yeah, but don’t you want to avaoid getting thrush? Using an extender tube has greatly reduced my problem in my mouth and stomach from inhaled steroids. — Gordon    W5RED www.couger.com/gcouger "You miss 100 percent of the shots you never take."   – Wayne Gretzky

Response:

Because it’s on the insurance company’s list and Flovent isn’t?  More trouble to get you authorized for Flovent. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I f Flovent works better, then why would my doctor want me to switch to Pulmicort? : Flovent tastes like crap… I hate that stuff…but it works. Flovent causes me a lot less troubles than pulmacort and works better. The tast is not nears as bad as a lot of things I remember. Witicha Falls, Texas water stands out in my mind for bad tasting things. — Gordon    W5RED www.couger.com/gcouger "You miss 100 percent of the shots you never take."   – Wayne Gretzky : : -J : : Hey, I’m using Flovent right now, but my doc wants me to switch over to : Pulmicort, but I don’t feel comfortable with it.  With Pulmicort, unlike : Flovent, you don’t taste the medicine.  How do you know for sure (short : of : an asthma attack) that you are getting the med? : : By the lack of asthma attacks. : : BTW, sometimes I can detect a faint taste of the medication. : : : : "Keep looking below surface appearances. Don’t shrink : from doing so (just) because you might not like what : you find." :    General Colin Powell : :

Response:

Because it’s on the insurance company’s list and Flovent isn’t?  More trouble to get you authorized for Flovent.

It is debatable which is better. Pulmicort has less systemic exposure due to rapid metabolism in the liver. Also the delivery device eliminates the need for a spacer. Personally, I use Flovent more because I think my patients are more used to the MDI and I try to get them to use the spacer for the other MDI’s as well. There doesn’t have to be an insidious reason for the recommendation to switch. If it is due to formulary reasons I think the doctor should be excused for not fighting a switch to a drug that is as good, if not better. — CBI, M.D. Please note: It is impossible to accurately diagnose medical problems without seeing the patient and reviewing the entire history. These posts are intended to be helpful and informative. Always check with your doctor before following any advice given.

Response:

yes, that works, but does it work with Pulmicort?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : yeah, but don’t you want to avaoid getting thrush? Using an extender tube has greatly reduced my problem in my mouth and stomach from inhaled steroids. — Gordon    W5RED www.couger.com/gcouger "You miss 100 percent of the shots you never take."   – Wayne Gretzky

Response:

I used Maxair and Asthmacort successfully for 12 years. Last year at this time, my asthma started causing me trouble. And this has gotten steadily worse over the year. Question 1: Do these drugs become ineffective after long-term use?

Typically, no.  However if your asthma changes then they may no longer be adequate. Question 2: If Asthmacort is no longer effective for me, will Pulmicort do any good?

I stopped using Azmacort a long time ago.  I have been on Pulmicort for about a year now and have had great success. "Keep looking below surface appearances. Don’t shrink from doing so (just) because you might not like what you find."    General Colin Powell

Response:

I used Maxair and Asthmacort successfully for 12 years. Last year at this time, my asthma started causing me trouble. And this has gotten steadily worse over the year. Question 1: Do these drugs become ineffective after long-term use? Question 2: If Asthmacort is no longer effective for me, will Pulmicort do any good? -Daniel Before you buy.

Response:

Hey, I’m using Flovent right now, but my doc wants me to switch over to Pulmicort, but I don’t feel comfortable with it.  With Pulmicort, unlike Flovent, you don’t taste the medicine.  How do you know for sure (short of an asthma attack) that you are getting the med?

By the lack of asthma attacks. BTW, sometimes I can detect a faint taste of the medication. "Keep looking below surface appearances. Don’t shrink from doing so (just) because you might not like what you find."    General Colin Powell

Response:

Flovent tastes like crap… I hate that stuff…but it works. -J

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey, I’m using Flovent right now, but my doc wants me to switch over to Pulmicort, but I don’t feel comfortable with it.  With Pulmicort, unlike Flovent, you don’t taste the medicine.  How do you know for sure (short of an asthma attack) that you are getting the med? By the lack of asthma attacks. BTW, sometimes I can detect a faint taste of the medication. "Keep looking below surface appearances. Don’t shrink from doing so (just) because you might not like what you find."    General Colin Powell

Response:

Hey, I’m using Flovent right now, but my doc wants me to switch over to Pulmicort, but I don’t feel comfortable with it.  With Pulmicort, unlike Flovent, you don’t taste the medicine.  How do you know for sure (short of an asthma attack) that you are getting the med? By the lack of asthma attacks. BTW, sometimes I can detect a faint taste of the medication. When I was on Pulmicort I knew that I was receiving med. because I had

thrush. think about it.  Pam – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "Keep looking below surface appearances. Don’t shrink from doing so (just) because you might not like what you find."    General Colin Powell

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yeah, but don’t you want to avaoid getting thrush?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey, I’m using Flovent right now, but my doc wants me to switch over to Pulmicort, but I don’t feel comfortable with it.  With Pulmicort, unlike Flovent, you don’t taste the medicine.  How do you know for sure (short of an asthma attack) that you are getting the med? By the lack of asthma attacks. BTW, sometimes I can detect a faint taste of the medication. When I was on Pulmicort I knew that I was receiving med. because I had thrush. think about it.  Pam "Keep looking below surface appearances. Don’t shrink from doing so (just) because you might not like what you find."    General Colin Powell

Response:

: yeah, but don’t you want to avaoid getting thrush? Using an extender tube has greatly reduced my problem in my mouth and stomach from inhaled steroids. — Gordon    W5RED www.couger.com/gcouger "You miss 100 percent of the shots you never take."   – Wayne Gretzky

Response:

: Flovent tastes like crap… I hate that stuff…but it works. Flovent causes me a lot less troubles than pulmacort and works better. The tast is not nears as bad as a lot of things I remember. Witicha Falls, Texas water stands out in my mind for bad tasting things. — Gordon    W5RED www.couger.com/gcouger "You miss 100 percent of the shots you never take."   – Wayne Gretzky : : -J

: : Hey, I’m using Flovent right now, but my doc wants me to switch over to : Pulmicort, but I don’t feel comfortable with it.  With Pulmicort, unlike : Flovent, you don’t taste the medicine.  How do you know for sure (short : of : an asthma attack) that you are getting the med? : : By the lack of asthma attacks. : : BTW, sometimes I can detect a faint taste of the medication. : : : : "Keep looking below surface appearances. Don’t shrink : from doing so (just) because you might not like what : you find." :    General Colin Powell : :

Response:

I f Flovent works better, then why would my doctor want me to switch to Pulmicort?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : Flovent tastes like crap… I hate that stuff…but it works. Flovent causes me a lot less troubles than pulmacort and works better. The tast is not nears as bad as a lot of things I remember. Witicha Falls, Texas water stands out in my mind for bad tasting things. — Gordon    W5RED www.couger.com/gcouger "You miss 100 percent of the shots you never take."   – Wayne Gretzky : : -J : : Hey, I’m using Flovent right now, but my doc wants me to switch over to : Pulmicort, but I don’t feel comfortable with it.  With Pulmicort, unlike : Flovent, you don’t taste the medicine.  How do you know for sure (short : of : an asthma attack) that you are getting the med? : : By the lack of asthma attacks. : : BTW, sometimes I can detect a faint taste of the medication. : : : : "Keep looking below surface appearances. Don’t shrink : from doing so (just) because you might not like what : you find." :    General Colin Powell : :

Response:

Hey, I’m using Flovent right now, but my doc wants me to switch over to Pulmicort, but I don’t feel comfortable with it.  With Pulmicort, unlike Flovent, you don’t taste the medicine.  How do you know for sure (short of an asthma attack) that you are getting the med?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I used Maxair and Asthmacort successfully for 12 years. Last year at this time, my asthma started causing me trouble. And this has gotten steadily worse over the year. Question 1: Do these drugs become ineffective after long-term use? Typically, no.  However if your asthma changes then they may no longer be adequate. Question 2: If Asthmacort is no longer effective for me, will Pulmicort do any good? I stopped using Azmacort a long time ago.  I have been on Pulmicort for about a year now and have had great success. "Keep looking below surface appearances. Don’t shrink from doing so (just) because you might not like what you find."    General Colin Powell

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Question:

so what is the majority opinion on the best rate of effexor withdrawal? 50% a week?   i am taking 300mg and thinking about 25% a week

Response:

Check with your pdoc, but I think it’s better to taper off slowly… but then I had bad experiences with stopping Effexor cold turkey.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – so what is the majority opinion on the best rate of effexor withdrawal? 50% a week? i am taking 300mg and thinking about 25% a week

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Question:

For anyone who’s ever been on it or is familiar with the drug: What is the average dosage for this stuff? Thanks…

Response:

I have taken 75-150 mg before. I currently take regular effexor (not XR) 100 mg.  Effexor XR dosages range from 75 (low) to 450mg (very high).  Avg is from 150mg to 225mg.  You know you are taking too much if you begin to have more and more trouble getting up in the morning. hope this helps, SaNd For anyone who’s ever been on it or is familiar with the drug: What is the average dosage for this stuff? Thanks…

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Response:

I have taken 75XR… my doctor inscreased my med at 150… Yark… I have had hallucinations. Aline – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – For anyone who’s ever been on it or is familiar with the drug: What is the average dosage for this stuff? Thanks…

Response:

I am on 150mg/day, and having difficulty getting up in the morning. But that was the same before Effexor. I think it is my depression that keeps me tied to bed. Why are you suggesting to lower the dose in this case? I mean, how does high dose of Effexor cause difficulty waking up? cem

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have taken 75-150 mg before. I currently take regular effexor (not XR) 100 mg.  Effexor XR dosages range from 75 (low) to 450mg (very high).  Avg is from 150mg to 225mg.  You know you are taking too much if you begin to have more and more trouble getting up in the morning. hope this helps, SaNd For anyone who’s ever been on it or is familiar with the drug: What is the average dosage for this stuff? Thanks…

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Response:

If you are having more difficulty getting up now than you were before you began taking effexor or when you ere on a lower dosage, then you know that getting up in the morning is becoming even more difficult than before.  That is when you might suspect that you are taking too much effexor.  If you are having the same difficulty getting up inthe morning as you were before you began taking it or when you were on lower doses, then you may not be taking enough and/or it may not be working for you.   Is that a little easier to understand? I know it can be hard to tell how difficult getting up inthe morning is.  I guage it by how long i sleep.  The longer I sleep, the more difficult it is to get up.  Taking too much effexor when it is working can paralyze a person and it can be maddening because it happens so slowly. =) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I am on 150mg/day, and having difficulty getting up in the morning. But that was the same before Effexor. I think it is my depression that keeps me tied to bed. Why are you suggesting to lower the dose in this case? I mean, how does high dose of Effexor cause difficulty waking up? cem I have taken 75-150 mg before. I currently take regular effexor (not XR) 100 mg.  Effexor XR dosages range from 75 (low) to 450mg (very high).  Avg is from 150mg to 225mg.  You know you are taking too much if you begin to have more and more trouble getting up in the morning. hope this helps, SaNd For anyone who’s ever been on it or is familiar with the drug: What is the average dosage for this stuff? Thanks… __ Posted Via Binaries.net = SPEED+RETENTION+COMPLETION = http://www.binaries.net

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Response:

I am on 75 mg/day.  Many people are on 150 mg.  I have heard of people being on 300 and 375 mg/day.  That’s where some of the bizarre side effects seem to be seen.  (Try a Google search on "effexor side effects.") Contrary to some of the other posts in this thread, I don’t see Effexor having any impact on my ability to get up in the morning.  But I am on a pretty low dose.  I do find that it causes me to have extremely vivid, detailed, long, and sometimes illogical dreams.  Paxil had this effect on me as well. I have heard the opinion that Effexor’s effect on norepinephrine reuptake doesn’t kick in until 150 mg/day, e.g. below 150 it supposedly only works on serotonin.  But I’ve always done fine on 75.  Perhaps it is a function of concentration, which in turn is a function of both dose and body weight, as I am not a large person. Hope this helps.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – For anyone who’s ever been on it or is familiar with the drug: What is the average dosage for this stuff? Thanks…

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Thanks very much for the help. Much appreciated. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – For anyone who’s ever been on it or is familiar with the drug: What is the average dosage for this stuff? Thanks…

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Question:

It’s been about two months since I’ve been on my meds, and my anxiety symptoms have pretty much disappeared except for one thing. When I go out I constantly watch my bag (which I put my water in) afraid that someone will slip me a mickey. (And at work too,etc.) Then at home I obsess about the household chemicals, afraid that they will get into my mouth or eyes. Does it sound like ocd? I’m about to go up to 50mgs of Zoloft on Wednesday, and hopefully this should help.

Response:

Nicole wrote…. It’s been about two months since I’ve been on my meds, and my anxiety symptoms have pretty much disappeared except for one thing. When I go out I constantly watch my bag (which I put my water in) afraid that someone will slip me a mickey. (And at work too,etc.) Then at home I obsess about the household chemicals, afraid that they will get into my mouth or eyes. Does it sound like ocd? I’m about to go up to 50mgs of Zoloft on Wednesday, and hopefully this should help.

Dear Nicole, Obsessive thoughts are common with anxiety disorders and they can be part of OCD……only your doctor can tell you what yours are. I`ve had what my psychologist calls OC tendencies, so I can relate to your thoughts. Increasing your Zoloft dose might address this more effectively. Since being on Paxil, obsessive thoughts are gone for the most part. Glad to hear you are doing better ) Jackie ~*~Begin doing what you want to do now. We are not living in eternity. We have only this moment, sparkling like a star

Response:

Does it sound like ocd?

no not really it sounds like you are habituated to negative scary thoughts of someone hurting you or you being in a position at the mercy of others control-I would say you tend to be perfectionsitic and like even need to be in control but I could be wrong this is cyber space if the thoughts are intrusive and you cannot stop them once you make some controlled observations ie: you check the seal on the water bottle and are satisfied it is sealed etc-then this is a type of obsessive thinking and the meds and some therapy will hopefuly help LM

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Path: lobby!newstf02.news.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Lines: 7 Newsgroups: alt.support.anxiety-panic Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com It’s been about two months since I’ve been on my meds, and my anxiety symptoms have pretty much disappeared except for one thing. When I go out I constantly watch my bag (which I put my water in) afraid that someone will slip me a mickey. (And at work too,etc.) Then at home I obsess about the household chemicals, afraid that they will get into my mouth or eyes. Does it sound like ocd? I’m about to go up to 50mgs of Zoloft on Wednesday, and hopefully this should help.

 Hi Nicole,  Does this worry about your bottle continue, or are there times when you are not so worried about it? We’ve a house full of anxiety people here , and at different times some of us have had an obssessing spell, which stops, while others (me) still obsess a bit, but to no great extent. Fear of being hurt by chemicals, even tho there is no way they could actually get onto you, is an irrational after-trace of the major anxiety you were experiencing. I found similar thoughts, but didnt get really upset by them, as I knew they were extremely unlikely. That rationalising did not stop them immediately though. Eventually they did drift away. After many years of meds, I’ve found this symptom to have dissappeared.

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Question:

commonly used slow serotonin reuptake inhibitor (SSRI)

ROTFL!  What a load of BS … —   -john

Response:

Recent studies have shown SJW to be equally as effective as Zoloft (sertraline) and Prozac (fluoxetine) in mild to moderate depression. It also seems to have a better side-effect profile. See the references below: – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – Equivalence of St John’s wort extract (Ze 117) and fluoxetine: a randomized, controlled study in mild-moderate depression. Schrader E Int Clin Psychopharmacol 2000 Mar;15(2):61-8 Treatment with St John’s wort extract tablets (hypericum Ze 117) and the commonly used slow serotonin reuptake inhibitor (SSRI) fluoxetine was compared in patients with mild-moderate depression with entry Hamilton Depression Scale (HAM-D) (21-item) in the range 16-24, in a randomized, double-blind, parallel group comparison in 240 subjects; fluoxetine: 114 (48%), hypericum: 126 (52%). After 6 weeks’ treatment, mean HAM-D at endpoint decreased to 11.54 on hypericum and to 12.20 on fluoxetine (P < 0.09), while mean Clinical Global Impression (CGI) item I (severity) was significantly (P < 0.03) superior on hypericum, as was the responder rate (P = 0.005). Hypericum safety was substantially superior to fluoxetine, with the incidence of adverse events being 23% on fluoxetine and 8% on hypericum. The commonest events on fluoxetine were agitation (8%), GI disturbances (6%), retching (4%), dizziness (4%), tiredness, anxiety/nervousness and erectile dysfunction (3% each), while on hypericum only GI disturbances (5%) had an incidence greater than 2%. We concluded that hypericum and fluoxetine are equipotent with respect to all main parameters used to investigate antidepressants in this population. Although hypericum may be superior in improving the responder rate, the main difference between the two treatments is safety. Hypericum was superior to fluoxetine in overall incidence of side-effects, number of patients with side-effects and the type of side-effect reported. – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – "Comparison of an extract of hypericum (LI 160) and sertraline in the treatment of depression: a double-blind, randomized pilot study." Brenner R, Azbel V, Madhusoodanan S, Pawlowska M Clin Ther 2000 Apr;22(4):411-9 BACKGROUND: Hypericum (St. John’s wort) has been shown to be as efficacious and well tolerated as standard antidepressants in the treatment of depression but has not been compared with selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs). OBJECTIVE: This study compared hypericum and the SSRI sertraline in the treatment of depression. METHODS: In a double-blind, randomized study conducted in a community hospital, 30 male and female outpatients (19 women, 11 men; mean age, 45.5 years) with mild to moderate depression received 600 mg/d of a standardized extract of hypericum (LI 160) or 50 mg/d sertraline for I week, followed by hypericum 900 mg/d or sertraline 75 mg/d for 6 weeks. RESULTS: The severity of symptoms, as assessed by scores on the Hamilton Rating Scale for Depression (HAM-D) and the Clinical Global Impression scale, was significantly reduced in both treatment groups (P < 0.01). Clinical response (defined as a or =50% reduction in HAM-D scores) was noted in 47% of patients receiving hypericum and 40% of those receiving sertraline. The difference was not statistically significant. Both agents were well tolerated. A post hoc power analysis indicated that failure to reach statistical significance between treatments resulted primarily from an absence of clinical differences rather than the small sample size. CONCLUSION: The hypericum extract was at least as effective as sertraline in the treatment of mild to moderate depression in a small group of outpatients.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The interesting thing with St. John’s Wort, is that it alters the ‘mood/mind’ enough to allow an objective and clear perspective of the Self. And therefore a clear insight into those parts of the Self that causes the depression. Is your intent to clear yourself of the depression?… or clear yourself of the sources of that depression? Translation: SJW is not strong enough to cure many cases of depression by itself, and works best with psychotherapy combination. By extension, an SSRI plus that kind of psychotherapy ought to be better yet? —

com for the reply address.

Response:

I am interested in info. on St. John’s Wort and Kava for OCD and anxiety.

Here is some info. I found on St. John’s Wort and OCD: "Gridrunner: Have you heard of some success using St. John’s Wort or 5-htp to lessen OCD? Dr. Jenike: Yes, there are a few cases where St. John’s Wort has helped OCD. In Germany, there are dozens of studies using SJW for mild to moderate depression, but its use for treating OCD is relatively new. I have tried it in quite a few patients, with not much success. But then again, most of the patients I see now, are on the more severe end of the spectrum." – http://www.healthyplace.com/Communities/OCD/site/transcripts/obsession s_ocd.htm See also: http://www.biopsychiatry.com/stjohnocd.htm

Response:

The interesting thing with St. John’s Wort, is that it alters the ‘mood/mind’ enough to allow an objective and clear perspective of the Self. And therefore a clear insight into those parts of the Self that causes the depression. Is your intent to clear yourself of the depression?… or clear yourself of the sources of that depression?

Translation: SJW is not strong enough to cure many cases of depression by itself, and works best with psychotherapy combination. By extension, an SSRI plus that kind of psychotherapy ought to be better yet? —

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Dear R.P.,      I have used Kava for anxiety and it does help though if your anxiety is high it may take a few days for it to really catch up with you.  To be on it is to be mellow but alert at the same time so I think it would help with OCD.                    Rusty

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am interested in info. on St. John’s Wort and Kava for OCD and anxiety. Thank you.

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I am interested in info. on St. John’s Wort and Kava for OCD and anxiety. Thank you.

Response:

I am interested in info. on St. John’s Wort and Kava for OCD and anxiety. Thank you.

I had a lot of luck with Kava Kava for anxiety, but it brought back eczema that had lain dormant for over 6 years (and which I have yet to get rid of). Take care if you have any dermatological problems.

Response:

My psychiatrist said it was useless for OCD. Only good for *mild* depression. Ida

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am interested in info. on St. John’s Wort and Kava for OCD and anxiety. Thank you.

Response:

In article <   "Bill & Ida Kern" < My psychiatrist said it was useless for OCD. Only good for *mild* depression. Ida

The interesting thing with St. John’s Wort, is that it alters the ‘mood/mind’ enough to allow an objective and clear perspective of the Self. And therefore a clear insight into those parts of the Self that causes the depression. Is your intent to clear yourself of the depression?… or clear yourself of the sources of that depression? The Wort (like LSD; magic mushrooms; kava-kava) open-up the psyche for deeper investigation… rather than offer a cure-all. Later Gerrit

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Question:

I am not sure why I am telling all of you this, I guess I am ready to have some of you know you are not alone in this misery, it may manifest itself in different ways but we are all in a place that isn’t funny…my rants or laughter at most craziness in my life is just a way for me to cope with all the crap that has happened.

Thankyou Cherly I am not sure why you posted this but I am glad you did.  I have posted some off my hell here and revealed a bit more on anx/pan.  One day I hope to be able to reveal all off me but I am not ready for that yet.  A big milestone for me was putting my pic on the ASAP gallery. I love your posts and your very naturalness, your pure humanity. Simon

Response:

guarding angel. Love Cathy — P.H.O.B.I.A. People Helping Others Become Independent Again Off-line Self Help Support Group, NJ http://community.nj.com/cc/phobia Anxiety Treatment Options http://www.members.tripod.com/~PhobiaGroup/index.html

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It started when they put a big fat tube in my abdominal cavityfor peritoneal dialysis…then when things got bad(I got very very ill) they put a nice catheter in my upper chest and told me not to get that wet(infection) so taking a shower was not an option…For some reason, don’t ask my why,I became so germophobic with all of these tubes hanging out of me and recent surgery on my left arm(to make an access for hemodialysis) just rendered me simple.  I made my step dad take out the shower doors and then we put up a curtain and I would hand shower with the thing open freezing my ass off but that is how I did it.  It took me HOURS to get into the shower, I had to pop pain pills after awhile to escape the fear and quirks I was developing.  I finally would have such a "icky" phobia I could barely touch Christa, Ted, any human or any surface..I would just have others help out while I sat and rocked in my chair.  It was a hell I will never go back to I don’t care what I have to take or do.  Finally I made myself just get in there and that took a long time to conquer, the removal of all tubes was of course, another breakthrough.  While I was doing this I was digging at my head, tearing my head up just to feel something.  I had so many sores on my head I had to let my hair grow long as I couldn’t even brush it. Only Margrove and a couple of others knows this.  He helped me get over through it and it’s nice to have my hair short and my head free of pain.  It hurt me so much I would get migraines  I would wake up with blood everywhere…my poor husband was just at a loss.  So when some idiot tells me I should kick the benzo or SSRI thing I just want to take him back to the time I sat in a chair every day for a fucking year with bloody nails, dirty body and depression that was leading to suicide and make him or her sit with me. I wish more than anything I could have done it myself or without meds, but I couldn’t.  But yes, you are not alone with the shower thing… I am so happy to be as far as I am. I am thankful to God that I can run my hands through my hair and not feel potholes of blood. I am not sure why I am telling all of you this, I guess I am ready to have some of you know you are not alone in this misery, it may manifest itself in different ways but we are all in a place that isn’t funny…my rants or laughter at most craziness in my life is just a way for me to cope with all the crap that has happened. Cheryl love, you *have* come a very long way indeed…..you’re a real survivor and such a sweet and witty and lovable person. It’s a joy to know you. Our learned friend Margrove – sometimes it *must* be said – is a true marvel. He helped so many here both in public and in private email… we had *professionals* here before but never like this, engaging into ASAP dynamics and giving so much without ever being patronizing and you can even have fun with him. I’ll stop here because otherwise he might get too big for his boots <g but I think we all should realize what a true *treasure* we have for a friend…. Philip — TC3 ~~snipped~~ I would spend six hours trying to get into my shower and probably spend the rest of my life in this condo without ever leaving. Ahhhh, so I am NOT strange to hate the shower now!!  I feel much better knowing it isn’t just me! R Til Later…. ~~R "What makes us discontented with our condition is the absurdly exaggerated idea we have of the happiness of others"   -Proverbs

Response:

Oh Cheryl honey, I never knew things were that bad for you.  I commend you on your openness and courage.  These anti-benzo people have no idea how they are effecting us.  Right now I am tapering off Effexor XR with the help of a Benzo, if I didn’t have my Xanax I would be in the ER every night. Love Ya Cathy — P.H.O.B.I.A. People Helping Others Become Independent Again Off-line Self Help Support Group, NJ http://community.nj.com/cc/phobia Anxiety Treatment Options http://www.members.tripod.com/~PhobiaGroup/index.html

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It started when they put a big fat tube in my abdominal cavityfor peritoneal dialysis…then when things got bad(I got very very ill) they put a nice catheter in my upper chest and told me not to get that wet(infection) so taking a shower was not an option…For some reason, don’t ask my why,I became so germophobic with all of these tubes hanging out of me and recent surgery on my left arm(to make an access for hemodialysis) just rendered me simple.  I made my step dad take out the shower doors and then we put up a curtain and I would hand shower with the thing open freezing my ass off but that is how I did it.  It took me HOURS to get into the shower, I had to pop pain pills after awhile to escape the fear and quirks I was developing.  I finally would have such a "icky" phobia I could barely touch Christa, Ted, any human or any surface..I would just have others help out while I sat and rocked in my chair.  It was a hell I will never go back to I don’t care what I have to take or do.  Finally I made myself just get in there and that took a long time to conquer, the removal of all tubes was of course, another breakthrough.  While I was doing this I was digging at my head, tearing my head up just to feel something.  I had so many sores on my head I had to let my hair grow long as I couldn’t even brush it. Only Margrove and a couple of others knows this.  He helped me get over through it and it’s nice to have my hair short and my head free of pain.  It hurt me so much I would get migraines  I would wake up with blood everywhere…my poor husband was just at a loss.  So when some idiot tells me I should kick the benzo or SSRI thing I just want to take him back to the time I sat in a chair every day for a fucking year with bloody nails, dirty body and depression that was leading to suicide and make him or her sit with me. I wish more than anything I could have done it myself or without meds, but I couldn’t.  But yes, you are not alone with the shower thing… I am so happy to be as far as I am. I am thankful to God that I can run my hands through my hair and not feel potholes of blood. I am not sure why I am telling all of you this, I guess I am ready to have some of you know you are not alone in this misery, it may manifest itself in different ways but we are all in a place that isn’t funny…my rants or laughter at most craziness in my life is just a way for me to cope with all the crap that has happened. — TC3 ~~snipped~~ I would spend six hours trying to get into my shower and probably spend the rest of my life in this condo without ever leaving. Ahhhh, so I am NOT strange to hate the shower now!!  I feel much better knowing it isn’t just me! R Til Later…. ~~R "What makes us discontented with our condition is the absurdly exaggerated idea we have of the happiness of others"   -Proverbs

Response:

Hi, Dot, Squid – YUK!  but I have always said whatever it would take to overcome pd would be something I would do – even if it meant squid…  You know what I mean. smiles, elise

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – {{{{{Dot}}}}}} Could you imagine ingesting squid when the PA hit? GAG. Thank you Dot, coming from you makes this special.  And you know what, all of you could do what I did, it took a lot of praying, yakking away on here and of course, bugging Margrove to death.  :o) Love Cheryl — TC3 If squid with Grey Poupon(sp) on rice cakes cured this misery, I would eat it three times a day. IF Snickers was a cure…oh my…I won’t even go there!  I think we are all unique, some can do this without meds, some of us can’t, I can’t. If I go off at this point I will end up doing a destructive behavior that was difficult to stop, I would spend six hours trying to get into my shower and probably spend the rest of my life in this condo without ever leaving.  Fuck that(excuse my dirty mouth) I will stick to my meds until *I* know it’s time to try to fly alone.  That may not be ever so I am willing to deal with THAT later.  I have been through too much in the physical sense too and with that came issues of dying and other life threatening scenes, if ativan and remeron keep me from living and not dwelling on dying  then so be it.  And yes, laughter is the very best medicine and VERY addicting…  :o) — TC3 sorry to make light, just trying to make you all laugh a bit. We are all so differently made, unique in many ways, isn’t that the fun part of the human race?  Again, many different kinds of people with varied pasts and experiences.. .many differently types of treatments, therapies, and meds.  Hmmm. . . . — David (swirling_eddies) Very well spoken, Cheryl.  Dealing with your physical problems in addition to PD would be more than I could take, I’m afraid.  We are so lucky to live at a time when there are good meds (and good transplants)! I don’t know about the squid though… Love, Dot Before you buy.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It started when they put a big fat tube in my abdominal cavityfor peritoneal dialysis…then when things got bad(I got very very ill) they put a nice catheter in my upper chest and told me not to get that wet(infection) so taking a shower was not an option…For some reason, don’t ask my why,I became so germophobic with all of these tubes hanging out of me and recent surgery on my left arm(to make an access for hemodialysis) just rendered me simple.  I made my step dad take out the shower doors and then we put up a curtain and I would hand shower with the thing open freezing my ass off but that is how I did it.  It took me HOURS to get into the shower, I had to pop pain pills after awhile to escape the fear and quirks I was developing.  I finally would have such a "icky" phobia I could barely touch Christa, Ted, any human or any surface..I would just have others help out while I sat and rocked in my chair.  It was a hell I will never go back to I don’t care what I have to take or do.  Finally I made myself just get in there and that took a long time to conquer, the removal of all tubes was of course, another breakthrough.  While I was doing this I was digging at my head, tearing my head up just to feel something.  I had so many sores on my head I had to let my hair grow long as I couldn’t even brush it.  Only Margrove and a couple of others knows this.  He helped me get over through it and it’s nice to have my hair short and my head free of pain.  It hurt me so much I would get migraines  I would wake up with blood everywhere…my poor husband was just at a loss.  So when some idiot tells me I should kick the benzo or SSRI thing I just want to take him back to the time I sat in a chair every day for a fucking year with bloody nails, dirty body and depression that was leading to suicide and make him or her sit with me. I wish more than anything I could have done it myself or without meds, but I couldn’t.  But yes, you are not alone with the shower thing… I am so happy to be as far as I am. I am thankful to God that I can run my hands through my hair and not feel potholes of blood. I am not sure why I am telling all of you this, I guess I am ready to have some of you know you are not alone in this misery, it may manifest itself in different ways but we are all in a place that isn’t funny…my rants or laughter at most craziness in my life is just a way for me to cope with all the crap that has happened.

Cheryl love, you *have* come a very long way indeed…..you’re a real survivor and such a sweet and witty and lovable person. It’s a joy to know you. Our learned friend Margrove – sometimes it *must* be said – is a true marvel. He helped so many here both in public and in private email… we had *professionals* here before but never like this, engaging into ASAP dynamics and giving so much without ever being patronizing and you can even have fun with him. I’ll stop here because otherwise he might get too big for his boots <g but I think we all should realize what a true *treasure* we have for a friend…. Philip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — TC3 ~~snipped~~ I would spend six hours trying to get into my shower and probably spend the rest of my life in this condo without ever leaving. Ahhhh, so I am NOT strange to hate the shower now!!  I feel much better knowing it isn’t just me! R Til Later…. ~~R "What makes us discontented with our condition is the absurdly exaggerated idea we have of the happiness of others"   -Proverbs

Response:

Rita, From what I understand you start with a small dose – perhaps 1 Milky Way a day for 2 or 3 days then up the dose until you are feeling human again (Cheryl, Snickers can be used in place of the Milky Way)…  Unfortunately, you must do this for the rest of your life if you like it or not! smiles, Elise

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dear Eddie, oops, David…you said "get on chocolate."  Is that some sort of new med?  How long does it take to work and are there any side- effects?  What is the starting dose and will I become addicted to it? Inquiring minds want to know. Love, Rita sorry to make light, just trying to make you all laugh a bit. We are all so differently made, unique in many ways, isn’t that the fun part of the human race?  Again, many different kinds of people with varied pasts and experiences.. .many differently types of treatments, therapies, and meds.  Hmmm. . . . — David (swirling_eddies) Before you buy.

Response:

Cheryl, Your post is very sad but I appreciate the honesty and trust you have shared with us.  I am sorry you had to deal with such a difficult and ugly period in your life.  I totally agree, if it weren’t for meds I might as well not be here…  Life is easier to live with the meds but deep down inside of me everyday I wish I didn’t have to take them but it is a small price to pay for some happiness.  You have beenthrough SO much and I am proud of how you have handled everything life has sent your way. smiles, elise

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It started when they put a big fat tube in my abdominal cavityfor peritoneal dialysis…then when things got bad(I got very very ill) they put a nice catheter in my upper chest and told me not to get that wet(infection) so taking a shower was not an option…For some reason, don’t ask my why,I became so germophobic with all of these tubes hanging out of me and recent surgery on my left arm(to make an access for hemodialysis) just rendered me simple.  I made my step dad take out the shower doors and then we put up a curtain and I would hand shower with the thing open freezing my ass off but that is how I did it.  It took me HOURS to get into the shower, I had to pop pain pills after awhile to escape the fear and quirks I was developing.  I finally would have such a "icky" phobia I could barely touch Christa, Ted, any human or any surface..I would just have others help out while I sat and rocked in my chair.  It was a hell I will never go back to I don’t care what I have to take or do.  Finally I made myself just get in there and that took a long time to conquer, the removal of all tubes was of course, another breakthrough.  While I was doing this I was digging at my head, tearing my head up just to feel something.  I had so many sores on my head I had to let my hair grow long as I couldn’t even brush it. Only Margrove and a couple of others knows this.  He helped me get over through it and it’s nice to have my hair short and my head free of pain.  It hurt me so much I would get migraines  I would wake up with blood everywhere…my poor husband was just at a loss.  So when some idiot tells me I should kick the benzo or SSRI thing I just want to take him back to the time I sat in a chair every day for a fucking year with bloody nails, dirty body and depression that was leading to suicide and make him or her sit with me. I wish more than anything I could have done it myself or without meds, but I couldn’t.  But yes, you are not alone with the shower thing… I am so happy to be as far as I am. I am thankful to God that I can run my hands through my hair and not feel potholes of blood. I am not sure why I am telling all of you this, I guess I am ready to have some of you know you are not alone in this misery, it may manifest itself in different ways but we are all in a place that isn’t funny…my rants or laughter at most craziness in my life is just a way for me to cope with all the crap that has happened. — TC3 ~~snipped~~ I would spend six hours trying to get into my shower and probably spend the rest of my life in this condo without ever leaving. Ahhhh, so I am NOT strange to hate the shower now!!  I feel much better knowing it isn’t just me! R Til Later…. ~~R "What makes us discontented with our condition is the absurdly exaggerated idea we have of the happiness of others"   -Proverbs

Response:

– TC3

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – | If squid with Grey Poupon(sp) on rice cakes cured | this misery, I would eat it three times a day. | IF Snickers was a cure…oh my…I won’t even | go there!  I think we are all unique, some can | do this without meds, some of us can’t, I can’t. | If I go off at this point I will end up doing a destructive | behavior that was difficult to stop, I would spend | six hours trying to get into my shower and probably | spend the rest of my life in this condo without ever | leaving.  Fuck that(excuse my dirty mouth) I will | stick to my meds until *I* know it’s time to | try to fly alone.  That may not be ever so I am | willing to deal with THAT later.  I have been | through too much in the physical sense too and | with that came issues of dying and other life | threatening scenes, if ativan and remeron keep | me from living and not dwelling on dying  then | so be it.  And yes, laughter is the very best medicine | and VERY addicting…  :o) | | — | TC3 Cheryl:

No squid? LOL  I hate it myself… I choose to take the benzo’s because they are giving me a vacation from the terror inside and giving my pdoc time to address the causative issues.

Exactly!  I am not seeing anyone right now…but I think the whole being sick thing and my daughter being sick thing was my triggers for this problem…. Don’t worry about the dirty mouth, I am sure your teeth are clean, and sometimes, that’s the only way to get the point across.

I brush frequently and floss like a maniac.  Happy Harry Drug stores(in Del) have this floss that lasts for like twenty years and the box is the SAME size as the normal stuff…and I floss constantly~ My mom is always saying, "you are such a nice funny girl, do you have to say fuck all of the time?" I can’t help it.  It’s like saying "the" or "of"  you know? Damn. Hell. Shit. Poop. Kaka. Dirt. Mud. Manure. Peepee. Air Pollution. Rat shit, damnit, crap.

Reminds me of a George Carlin cheer we use to say in nursing school, Rat shit bat shit dirty old twat(I wince here) 69 assholes tied in a knot hurray lizard shit FUCK~ All of the above are only apart of how I feel about this disorder and the pain it has caused millions.

Ugh, I hate this more than I hated dialysis, believe me. Rock on girl!

Like a rolling stone, You too ~~~~ Keep the fun on ASAP, it keeps our sanity.  Love Cheryl – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – David

Response:

Chocolate is addicting…… )) Love Cathy — P.H.O.B.I.A. People Helping Others Become Independent Again Off-line Self Help Support Group, NJ http://community.nj.com/cc/phobia Anxiety Treatment Options http://www.members.tripod.com/~PhobiaGroup/index.html – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – sorry to make light, just trying to make you all laugh a bit. We are all so differently made, unique in many ways, isn’t that the fun part of the human race?  Again, many different kinds of people with varied pasts and experiences.. .many differently types of treatments, therapies, and meds.  Hmmm. . . . — David (swirling_eddies)

Response:

I just went to the store for milk and got two big ones…(Snickers that is! )  Love Cheryl — TC3

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – | Dear Eddie, oops, David…you said "get on chocolate."  Is that some | sort of new med?  How long does it take to work and are there any side- | effects?  What is the starting dose and will I become addicted to it? | Inquiring minds want to know. | | Love, | Rita | | Dear Silver, I mean Rita: The great thing about chocolate is that you never are addicted in any way, although it might affect your shape and form depending on what dosage you take. The other great thing about chocolate is that there are so many varieties and combinations, just about everyone can be satisfied.  Furthermore, all medical evidence from years of study of chocolate lovers tell us that it not only increases the amount of endorphins in our body, but is an aphrodisiac as well. Finally, chocolate has no side effects, no nausea (unless you eat too much), no dizziness (unless taken with wine after great sex), no disorientation (unless you are trying to unwrap a Hershey’s Kiss on the highway), does not cause sleeplessness (unless you take with a Coke while watching a horror movie and you realize you just ate the whole one pound bag of kisses in fear), and is generally prescribed by doctors, chiropractors, religious leaders, philosophers, educators, and everyone else, with the exception of dentists, of whom we all hate and fear anyway because they usually know NOTHING of panic disorder to begin with thereby nullifying their inclusion into our group of those who see the vital and necessary place the chocolate plays in our lives. Ahhhh, Toblerone. . .Snickers. . .Kisses. . . .Crunch. . .Chocolate Sheet Cake. . . Chocolate Meringue Pie. . .Chocolate Covered Cherries. . . Cherry Covered Chocolate. .  Cereal. . . Chocolate Cover Xanax. . . The lust, I mean list goes on and on. David ps:  the only drawback. . .weight and see

Response:

OH Rita, one big fat Snickers oughta do it!! Cheryl  xo — TC3

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dear Eddie, oops, David…you said "get on chocolate."  Is that some sort of new med?  How long does it take to work and are there any side- effects?  What is the starting dose and will I become addicted to it? Inquiring minds want to know. Love, Rita sorry to make light, just trying to make you all laugh a bit. We are all so differently made, unique in many ways, isn’t that the fun part of the human race?  Again, many different kinds of people with varied pasts and experiences.. .many differently types of treatments, therapies, and meds.  Hmmm. . . . — David (swirling_eddies) Before you buy.

Response:

Seeing him in person was quite a treat…I never laughed so hard. — TC3 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I love George Carlin.  He is the Gary Larson of comics. David

Response:

{{{{{Dot}}}}}} Could you imagine ingesting squid when the PA hit? GAG. Thank you Dot, coming from you makes this special.  And you know what, all of you could do what I did, it took a lot of praying, yakking away on here and of course, bugging Margrove to death.  :o) Love Cheryl — TC3

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If squid with Grey Poupon(sp) on rice cakes cured this misery, I would eat it three times a day. IF Snickers was a cure…oh my…I won’t even go there!  I think we are all unique, some can do this without meds, some of us can’t, I can’t. If I go off at this point I will end up doing a destructive behavior that was difficult to stop, I would spend six hours trying to get into my shower and probably spend the rest of my life in this condo without ever leaving.  Fuck that(excuse my dirty mouth) I will stick to my meds until *I* know it’s time to try to fly alone.  That may not be ever so I am willing to deal with THAT later.  I have been through too much in the physical sense too and with that came issues of dying and other life threatening scenes, if ativan and remeron keep me from living and not dwelling on dying  then so be it.  And yes, laughter is the very best medicine and VERY addicting…  :o) — TC3 sorry to make light, just trying to make you all laugh a bit. We are all so differently made, unique in many ways, isn’t that the fun part of the human race?  Again, many different kinds of people with varied pasts and experiences.. .many differently types of treatments, therapies, and meds.  Hmmm. . . . — David (swirling_eddies) Very well spoken, Cheryl.  Dealing with your physical problems in addition to PD would be more than I could take, I’m afraid.  We are so lucky to live at a time when there are good meds (and good transplants)! I don’t know about the squid though… Love, Dot Before you buy.

Response:

It started when they put a big fat tube in my abdominal cavityfor peritoneal dialysis…then when things got bad(I got very very ill) they put a nice catheter in my upper chest and told me not to get that wet(infection) so taking a shower was not an option…For some reason, don’t ask my why,I became so germophobic with all of these tubes hanging out of me and recent surgery on my left arm(to make an access for hemodialysis) just rendered me simple.  I made my step dad take out the shower doors and then we put up a curtain and I would hand shower with the thing open freezing my ass off but that is how I did it.  It took me HOURS to get into the shower, I had to pop pain pills after awhile to escape the fear and quirks I was developing.  I finally would have such a "icky" phobia I could barely touch Christa, Ted, any human or any surface..I would just have others help out while I sat and rocked in my chair.  It was a hell I will never go back to I don’t care what I have to take or do.  Finally I made myself just get in there and that took a long time to conquer, the removal of all tubes was of course, another breakthrough.  While I was doing this I was digging at my head, tearing my head up just to feel something.  I had so many sores on my head I had to let my hair grow long as I couldn’t even brush it.  Only Margrove and a couple of others knows this.  He helped me get over through it and it’s nice to have my hair short and my head free of pain.  It hurt me so much I would get migraines  I would wake up with blood everywhere…my poor husband was just at a loss.  So when some idiot tells me I should kick the benzo or SSRI thing I just want to take him back to the time I sat in a chair every day for a fucking year with bloody nails, dirty body and depression that was leading to suicide and make him or her sit with me. I wish more than anything I could have done it myself or without meds, but I couldn’t.  But yes, you are not alone with the shower thing… I am so happy to be as far as I am. I am thankful to God that I can run my hands through my hair and not feel potholes of blood. I am not sure why I am telling all of you this, I guess I am ready to have some of you know you are not alone in this misery, it may manifest itself in different ways but we are all in a place that isn’t funny…my rants or laughter at most craziness in my life is just a way for me to cope with all the crap that has happened. — TC3

~~snipped~~ I would spend six hours trying to get into my shower and probably spend the rest of my life in this condo without ever leaving. Ahhhh, so I am NOT strange to hate the shower now!!  I feel much better knowing it isn’t just me! R Til Later…. ~~R "What makes us discontented with our condition is the absurdly exaggerated

idea we have of the happiness of others"   -Proverbs

Response:

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL….this is too good not to print up.  You are so special and I love your sense of humor.  This is definitely going in my Favorites File. Love, Rita

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – | Dear Eddie, oops, David…you said "get on chocolate."  Is that some | sort of new med?  How long does it take to work and are there any side- | effects?  What is the starting dose and will I become addicted to it? | Inquiring minds want to know. | | Love, | Rita | | Dear Silver, I mean Rita: The great thing about chocolate is that you never are addicted in any way, although it might affect your shape and form depending on what dosage you take. The other great thing about chocolate is that there are so many varieties and combinations, just about everyone can be satisfied.  Furthermore, all medical evidence from years of study of chocolate lovers tell us that it not only increases the amount of endorphins in our body, but is an aphrodisiac as well. Finally, chocolate has no side effects, no nausea (unless you eat too much), no dizziness (unless taken with wine after great sex), no

disorientation (unless – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – you are trying to unwrap a Hershey’s Kiss on the highway), does not cause sleeplessness (unless you take with a Coke while watching a horror movie and you realize you just ate the whole one pound bag of kisses in fear), and is generally prescribed by doctors, chiropractors, religious leaders, philosophers, educators, and everyone else, with the exception of dentists, of whom we all hate and fear anyway because they usually know NOTHING of panic disorder to begin with thereby nullifying their inclusion into our group of those who see the vital and necessary place the chocolate plays in our lives. Ahhhh, Toblerone. . .Snickers. . .Kisses. . . .Crunch. . .Chocolate Sheet Cake. . . Chocolate Meringue Pie. . .Chocolate Covered Cherries. . . Cherry Covered Chocolate. .  Cereal. . . Chocolate Cover Xanax. . . The lust, I mean list goes on and on. David ps:  the only drawback. . .weight and see

Before you buy.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – | Dear Eddie, oops, David…you said "get on chocolate."  Is that some | sort of new med?  How long does it take to work and are there any side- | effects?  What is the starting dose and will I become addicted to it? | Inquiring minds want to know. | | Love, | Rita | | Dear Silver, I mean Rita: The great thing about chocolate is that you never are addicted in any way,

OH YEA!!!!  LOL Di

Response:

| Dear Eddie, oops, David…you said "get on chocolate."  Is that some | sort of new med?  How long does it take to work and are there any side- | effects?  What is the starting dose and will I become addicted to it? | Inquiring minds want to know. | | Love, | Rita | | Dear Silver, I mean Rita: The great thing about chocolate is that you never are addicted in any way, although it might affect your shape and form depending on what dosage you take. The other great thing about chocolate is that there are so many varieties and combinations, just about everyone can be satisfied.  Furthermore, all medical evidence from years of study of chocolate lovers tell us that it not only increases the amount of endorphins in our body, but is an aphrodisiac as well. Finally, chocolate has no side effects, no nausea (unless you eat too much), no dizziness (unless taken with wine after great sex), no disorientation (unless you are trying to unwrap a Hershey’s Kiss on the highway), does not cause sleeplessness (unless you take with a Coke while watching a horror movie and you realize you just ate the whole one pound bag of kisses in fear), and is generally prescribed by doctors, chiropractors, religious leaders, philosophers, educators, and everyone else, with the exception of dentists, of whom we all hate and fear anyway because they usually know NOTHING of panic disorder to begin with thereby nullifying their inclusion into our group of those who see the vital and necessary place the chocolate plays in our lives. Ahhhh, Toblerone. . .Snickers. . .Kisses. . . .Crunch. . .Chocolate Sheet Cake. . . Chocolate Meringue Pie. . .Chocolate Covered Cherries. . . Cherry Covered Chocolate. .  Cereal. . . Chocolate Cover Xanax. . . The lust, I mean list goes on and on. David ps:  the only drawback. . .weight and see

Response:

~~snipped~~ I would spend six hours trying to get into my shower and probably spend the rest of my life in this condo without ever leaving.  

Ahhhh, so I am NOT strange to hate the shower now!!  I feel much better knowing it isn’t just me! R Til Later…. ~~R "What makes us discontented with our condition is the absurdly exaggerated idea we have of the happiness of others"   -Proverbs

Response:

I love George Carlin.  He is the Gary Larson of comics. David

Response:

sorry to make light, just trying to make you all laugh a bit. We are all so differently made, unique in many ways, isn’t that the fun part of the human race?  Again, many different kinds of people with varied pasts and experiences.. .many differently types of treatments, therapies, and meds.  Hmmm. . . . — David (swirling_eddies)

Yea, what a bunch!!!  Just kidding.  This is a great bunch we have here. Hugs, Di

Response:

Dear Eddie, oops, David…you said "get on chocolate."  Is that some sort of new med?  How long does it take to work and are there any side- effects?  What is the starting dose and will I become addicted to it? Inquiring minds want to know. Love, Rita sorry to make light, just trying to make you all laugh a bit. We are all so differently made, unique in many ways, isn’t that the fun part of the human race?  Again, many different kinds of people with varied pasts and experiences.. .many differently types of treatments, therapies, and meds.  Hmmm. . . . — David (swirling_eddies)

Before you buy.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If squid with Grey Poupon(sp) on rice cakes cured this misery, I would eat it three times a day. IF Snickers was a cure…oh my…I won’t even go there!  I think we are all unique, some can do this without meds, some of us can’t, I can’t. If I go off at this point I will end up doing a destructive behavior that was difficult to stop, I would spend six hours trying to get into my shower and probably spend the rest of my life in this condo without ever leaving.  Fuck that(excuse my dirty mouth) I will stick to my meds until *I* know it’s time to try to fly alone.  That may not be ever so I am willing to deal with THAT later.  I have been through too much in the physical sense too and with that came issues of dying and other life threatening scenes, if ativan and remeron keep me from living and not dwelling on dying  then so be it.  And yes, laughter is the very best medicine and VERY addicting…  :o) — TC3 sorry to make light, just trying to make you all laugh a bit. We are all so differently made, unique in many ways, isn’t that the fun part of the human race?  Again, many different kinds of people with varied pasts and experiences.. .many differently types of treatments, therapies, and meds.  Hmmm. . . . — David (swirling_eddies)

Very well spoken, Cheryl.  Dealing with your physical problems in addition to PD would be more than I could take, I’m afraid.  We are so lucky to live at a time when there are good meds (and good transplants)! I don’t know about the squid though… Love, Dot Before you buy.

Response:

| If squid with Grey Poupon(sp) on rice cakes cured | this misery, I would eat it three times a day. | IF Snickers was a cure…oh my…I won’t even | go there!  I think we are all unique, some can | do this without meds, some of us can’t, I can’t. | If I go off at this point I will end up doing a destructive | behavior that was difficult to stop, I would spend | six hours trying to get into my shower and probably | spend the rest of my life in this condo without ever | leaving.  Fuck that(excuse my dirty mouth) I will | stick to my meds until *I* know it’s time to | try to fly alone.  That may not be ever so I am | willing to deal with THAT later.  I have been | through too much in the physical sense too and | with that came issues of dying and other life | threatening scenes, if ativan and remeron keep | me from living and not dwelling on dying  then | so be it.  And yes, laughter is the very best medicine | and VERY addicting…  :o) | | — | TC3 Cheryl: I choose to take the benzo’s because they are giving me a vacation from the terror inside and giving my pdoc time to address the causative issues. Don’t worry about the dirty mouth, I am sure your teeth are clean, and sometimes, that’s the only way to get the point across. Damn. Hell. Shit. Poop. Kaka. Dirt. Mud. Manure. Peepee. Air Pollution. Rat shit, damnit, crap. All of the above are only apart of how I feel about this disorder and the pain it has caused millions. Rock on girl! David

Response:

If squid with Grey Poupon(sp) on rice cakes cured this misery, I would eat it three times a day. IF Snickers was a cure…oh my…I won’t even go there!  I think we are all unique, some can do this without meds, some of us can’t, I can’t. If I go off at this point I will end up doing a destructive behavior that was difficult to stop, I would spend six hours trying to get into my shower and probably spend the rest of my life in this condo without ever leaving.  Fuck that(excuse my dirty mouth) I will stick to my meds until *I* know it’s time to try to fly alone.  That may not be ever so I am willing to deal with THAT later.  I have been through too much in the physical sense too and with that came issues of dying and other life threatening scenes, if ativan and remeron keep me from living and not dwelling on dying  then so be it.  And yes, laughter is the very best medicine and VERY addicting…  :o) — TC3 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – sorry to make light, just trying to make you all laugh a bit. We are all so differently made, unique in many ways, isn’t that the fun part of the human race?  Again, many different kinds of people with varied pasts and experiences.. .many differently types of treatments, therapies, and meds.  Hmmm. . . . — David (swirling_eddies)

Response:

sorry to make light, just trying to make you all laugh a bit. We are all so differently made, unique in many ways, isn’t that the fun part of the human race?  Again, many different kinds of people with varied pasts and experiences.. .many differently types of treatments, therapies, and meds.  Hmmm. . . . — David (swirling_eddies)

Response:

Question:

hi im new to this group  i hope you all will forgive me for lurking for a few weeks        im very new to all of this  my children got me this webtv & ms just came in my life uninvited a yr ago it has taken awhile to learn how to post & have the nerve to join my concern is in the prozac w/ anyone one of the ms meds  i also havent had the nerve to try the meds  after reading about avonex lately  i feel i am not to smart w/ that thought im sure ive said plenty for the first time      hope to hear from any & all                        thanks karen aka vagrammy

Response:

On Tue, 10 Oct 2000 22:30:08 -0400 (EDT), vagra…@webtv.net (Karen Nelson) wrote:

it has taken awhile to learn how to post & have the nerve to join my concern is in the prozac w/ anyone one of the ms meds  i also havent had the nerve to try the meds  after reading about avonex lately

Welcome aboard, Karen!  Sorry it took MS to get you posting, though. I do not take any of the ABC drugs (I do not qualify), so I cannot say anything useful about taking one of them with prozac.  Your doctor is the best one to give advice about that. I will point out that recent research indicates that the sooner you start taking one of the ABC drugs, the better.  Try to see a neurologist who specialises in MS and let him be your guide about which one to take. — Perth, Ontario, Canada http://www.superaje.com/~jcarter

Response:

Welcome Karen! I am sorry for you to have to join this group under the circumstances.  I take Rebif,(an interferon) as well as Effexor, an antidepressant and clonzepam for mild clonus and to help me sleep.  I get my bloodwork done every three months, and all is fine.  I guess all these medications I’m on aren’t killing me.  Actually, I feel pretty good right now.  I used to be one person who hated taking any kind of prescription drug.  Needless to say, I feel that they definitely have improved the quality of my life.  So! Thats a positive! Sincerely Diana Karen Nelson <vagra…@webtv.net

wrote in message

news:17863-39E3D0B0-109@storefull-621.iap.bryant.webtv.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

hi im new to this group  i hope you all will forgive me for lurking for a few weeks        im very new to all of this  my children got me this webtv & ms just came in my life uninvited a yr ago it has taken awhile to learn how to post & have the nerve to join my concern is in the prozac w/ anyone one of the ms meds  i also havent had the nerve to try the meds  after reading about avonex lately  i feel i am not to smart w/ that thought im sure ive said plenty for the first time      hope to hear from any & all                        thanks karen aka vagrammy

Response:

Diana- I take 25 mg of Elavil each evening before bed. Cheryl – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Linda Anchell wrote:

Hello Diana,         I am on Parnate (Tranylcypromine). It is an old MAOI drug. I changed for a year to Aurorix (Moclobemide) which *seemed* to be good, but then I really *did* get depresses a couple of months ago when things became too much, and I realised that I didn’t have the energy that Parnate had given me. Now I am back to Parnate and very happy with it. My fatigue now seems to be more to do with pushing the limits rather than accepting them!         I know of a friend who was prescribed an SSRI for pain too… Anti depressants do lots of things apart from fiddling with your mood…. I will be interested to see the responses that you get. (and depression or similar symptoms come in lots of different kinds, so there will be a variety of drugs to use….)                         Linda On Sun, 08 Oct 2000 02:19:27 GMT, "Diana Calder" <d.r.calder@home wrote: Hi All! Just wanted to know how many of us are on antidepressants, which ones? and are they effective.  I myself am on effexor, 150 mg a day.  I went on it when I started betaseron because the interferon maid me feel depressed.  I am on Rebif now and still taking effexor.  I think it helps a lot . Diana http://www.ozemail.com.au/~lindafrd/

Response:

Hi Diana: I take Tofranil 25 mg three times a day. At night time I take two 50mg of Desyrel another antidepresent to help me sleep since I declined sleeping pills. Yes, depression is here to stay, but I don’t let it control me, I control it! God Bless Millie

Response:

Hi, all! I am taking 20mg Paxil (sometimes 40mg) and Avonex. I was a very depressed and eventually, suicidal teenager, until almost right before i was dxed with MS last Nov. (I will be 22 next March.) I am now on Paxil. When I first started taking it, I could feel this weird numbness come over me. It helps me ignore the little things that would normally eat at me if I weren’t taking it, so that’s good. Smoking pot can make me extremely depressed, and sometimes suicidal, by the way. Yet, it usually doesn’t stop me! I am doing the Avonex thing once a week, I do it between 6 and 8 pm, so usually I sleep through most of the effects, but if I don’t sleep, I get on a very long crying jag, re-inacting some of the most suicidal feelings I have ever felt, everything that Paxil helps me ignore/rationalize comes right back. Sometimes I wonder if that horrible stiffness and muscle ache from the Avonex will be how I will feel all the time, one day? Biogen sent me a bottle of Tylenol once. I went and bought a big bottle of tylenolPM last week. I stay away from anything herbal, but I love tea and now I’ve discovered Internatioal Coffees’ VIENNA CHOCOLATE mmmmm Sorry for ramling so much!! It’s almost 3AM…   : ) Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

Response:

In article <8rs45o$jo…@nnrp1.deja.com

,

  Michael Baugh <mba…@my-deja.com

wrote: Anyone using St. John’s Wort?

Yes, I use St. John’s Wort. Two 300 mg capsules a day seems to ward off any depression. I’ve gone without – depression returns. This minimal dosage seems to work just fine and my Neuro approves. Noratoo – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> In article <ETaE5.2144$r6.1203…@den-news1.rmi.net

,

>   "Suzanne Lennon" <lenn…@doitnow.com> wrote: > > The psychiatrist has tried several drugs, and is struggling to come > up with > > something that Iam not alergic to.  Wellbutrin was fantastic, but I > > developed a rash within twoweeks.  Effexor at 75 mg was fine, but at > 75 + > > 37.5 caused (I thought) mild seizure-type tingling throughout my > body.  Now, > > I am on 75 mg Effexor and 20 mg Desaprimine, which works pretty well,

but not as well as the other too.  Also, the "seizures" have started again, only onmy left side, and emanating from the spot in my thigh that has always tingled and "spasm’d".  I am beginning to think that it is MS

related

rather than drugrelated.  If the neuro confirms this, I will probably go back to Effexor, at a higher dosage. Suzanne Diana Calder <d.r.calder@home wrote in message news:PQQD5.420473$8u4.4933426@news1.rdc1.bc.home.com… Hi All! Just wanted to know how many of us are on antidepressants, which ones? and are they effective.  I myself am on effexor, 150 mg a day.  I went on it when I started betaseron because the interferon maid me feel depressed.  I am on Rebif now and still taking effexor.  I think it helps a lot

.

Diana Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

Response:

I’m on Serzone. I’m still depressed BUT it’s because of this care home/prison I’m living in. I’ve always been a moody person. But Serzone/Paxil don’t do as much good as the pot I used to smoke. Gawd, I miss that! ;-}  "T" Diana Calder wrote:

Hi All! Just wanted to know how many of us are on antidepressants, which ones? and are they effective.  I myself am on effexor, 150 mg a day.  I went on it when I started betaseron because the interferon maid me feel depressed.  I am on Rebif now and still taking effexor.  I think it helps a lot . Diana

— David "T"-Thoshinsky 1550 Sutter St., Apt.416 San Francisco, CA  94109 415-345-9364 "I have great faith in fools – my friends call it self-confidence." – Edgar Allen Poe —  ” Learn that the advantage lieth not in possessing good things, but in the knowing the use of them.” Akhenaton? (c. B.C. 1375) — "I’m going Nucking Futs" — Yesterday is but a dream, tomorrow but a vision. But today well lived makes every yesterday  a dream of happiness, and every tomorrow a vision of hope. Look well, therefore, to this day ~ Sanskrit Proverb ~

Response:

Hi All! Just wanted to know how many of us are on antidepressants, which ones? and are they effective.  I myself am on effexor, 150 mg a day.  I went on it when I started betaseron because the interferon maid me feel depressed.  I am on Rebif now and still taking effexor.  I think it helps a lot . Diana

Response:

Hi Diana, I am on prozac (fluoxitine). I take 20 mg/day, unless I really feel ‘down’ – then I take 40 mg/day. It works for me. In article <PQQD5.420473$8u4.4933…@news1.rdc1.bc.home.com

, "Diana

Calder" <d.r.calder@home

wrote: Hi All! Just wanted to know how many of us are on antidepressants, which ones? and are they effective.  I myself am on effexor, 150 mg a day.

{snip}

Diana

— Take care James (#11)

Response:

The psychiatrist has tried several drugs, and is struggling to come up with something that Iam not alergic to.  Wellbutrin was fantastic, but I developed a rash within twoweeks.  Effexor at 75 mg was fine, but at 75 + 37.5 caused (I thought) mild seizure-type tingling throughout my body.  Now, I am on 75 mg Effexor and 20 mg Desaprimine, which works pretty well, but not as well as the other too.  Also, the "seizures" have started again, only onmy left side, and emanating from the spot in my thigh that has always tingled and "spasm’d".  I am beginning to think that it is MS related rather than drugrelated.  If the neuro confirms this, I will probably go back to Effexor, at a higher dosage. Suzanne Diana Calder <d.r.calder@home

wrote in message

news:PQQD5.420473$8u4.4933426@news1.rdc1.bc.home.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Hi All! Just wanted to know how many of us are on antidepressants, which ones? and are they effective.  I myself am on effexor, 150 mg a day.  I went on it when I started betaseron because the interferon maid me feel depressed.  I am on Rebif now and still taking effexor.  I think it helps a lot . Diana

Response:

Anyone using St. John’s Wort? In article <ETaE5.2144$r6.1203…@den-news1.rmi.net

,

  "Suzanne Lennon" <lenn…@doitnow.com

wrote:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

The psychiatrist has tried several drugs, and is struggling to come

up with

something that Iam not alergic to.  Wellbutrin was fantastic, but I developed a rash within twoweeks.  Effexor at 75 mg was fine, but at

75 +

37.5 caused (I thought) mild seizure-type tingling throughout my

body.  Now,

I am on 75 mg Effexor and 20 mg Desaprimine, which works pretty well,

but

not as well as the other too.  Also, the "seizures" have started

again, only

onmy left side, and emanating from the spot in my thigh that has

always

tingled and "spasm’d".  I am beginning to think that it is MS related

rather

than drugrelated.  If the neuro confirms this, I will probably go

back to

Effexor, at a higher dosage. Suzanne Diana Calder <d.r.calder@home wrote in message news:PQQD5.420473$8u4.4933426@news1.rdc1.bc.home.com… Hi All! Just wanted to know how many of us are on antidepressants, which

ones? and

are they effective.  I myself am on effexor, 150 mg a day.  I went

on it

when I started betaseron because the interferon maid me feel

depressed.  I

am on Rebif now and still taking effexor.  I think it helps a lot . Diana

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

Response:

Michael Baugh wrote:

Anyone using St. John’s Wort?

For a fair time, I was.  I gradually tapered off it, and on bad days I’d make a pot of "espresso" from SJW (I buy it bulk, at $2 an ounce (that’s 30 100mg capsules worth), and take half of an Effexor tablet with a whole pot of thrice-brewed SJW espresso (brew a pot, pour it back in and brew again, do this once more and the resulting brew, while bitter as all Hades, has darned near everything estracted from the SJW). This regimin would put me straight to sleep, and I’d sleep most of a day, but when I woke up, I was no longer suicidal.  After a while, I no longer needed this at all…  then, I tried taking Avonex, and for almost 2 months I was back in the sewer again.  Once I stopped the Avonex, things returned to normal. Love and Light, Jeannette

Response:

Hi! Before I went on prescription antidepressants, I took St. Johns Wort for almost two years.  Gradually, I found that the effects of the St. Johns Wort did not work anymore.  I am starting to wonder if these interferons are the drugs that are causing all the depression in the first place? Diana Michael Baugh <mba…@my-deja.com

wrote in message

news:8rs45o$jok$1@nnrp1.deja.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Anyone using St. John’s Wort? > In article <ETaE5.2144$r6.1203…@den-news1.rmi.net>, >   "Suzanne Lennon" <lenn…@doitnow.com> wrote: > > The psychiatrist has tried several drugs, and is struggling to come > up with > > something that Iam not alergic to.  Wellbutrin was fantastic, but I > > developed a rash within twoweeks.  Effexor at 75 mg was fine, but at > 75 + > > 37.5 caused (I thought) mild seizure-type tingling throughout my > body.  Now, > > I am on 75 mg Effexor and 20 mg Desaprimine, which works pretty well, > but > > not as well as the other too.  Also, the "seizures" have started > again, only > > onmy left side, and emanating from the spot in my thigh that has > always > > tingled and "spasm’d".  I am beginning to think that it is MS related > rather > > than drugrelated.  If the neuro confirms this, I will probably go > back to > > Effexor, at a higher dosage. > > Suzanne > > Diana Calder <d.r.calder@home

wrote in message

> > news:PQQD5.420473$8u4.4933426@news1.rdc1.bc.home.com… > > > Hi All! > > > Just wanted to know how many of us are on antidepressants, which > ones? and > > > are they effective.  I myself am on effexor, 150 mg a day.  I went > on it > > > when I started betaseron because the interferon maid me feel > depressed.  I > > > am on Rebif now and still taking effexor.  I think it helps a lot . > > > Diana > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy.

Response:

i take Celexa 20 mg in the a.m. and Neurontin 100 mg a.m. and noon and 300 mg at bedtime.  my neuro sarted me on the neurontin but my shrink upped it as she says it also helps as a mood stabilizer.  kathy v.

Response:

Hello Diana,         I am on Parnate (Tranylcypromine). It is an old MAOI drug. I changed for a year to Aurorix (Moclobemide) which *seemed* to be good, but then I really *did* get depresses a couple of months ago when things became too much, and I realised that I didn’t have the energy that Parnate had given me. Now I am back to Parnate and very happy with it. My fatigue now seems to be more to do with pushing the limits rather than accepting them!         I know of a friend who was prescribed an SSRI for pain too… Anti depressants do lots of things apart from fiddling with your mood…. I will be interested to see the responses that you get. (and depression or similar symptoms come in lots of different kinds, so there will be a variety of drugs to use….)                         Linda On Sun, 08 Oct 2000 02:19:27 GMT, "Diana Calder" <d.r.calder@home

wrote: Hi All! Just wanted to know how many of us are on antidepressants, which ones? and are they effective.  I myself am on effexor, 150 mg a day.  I went on it when I started betaseron because the interferon maid me feel depressed.  I am on Rebif now and still taking effexor.  I think it helps a lot . Diana

http://www.ozemail.com.au/~lindafrd/

Response:

On Tue, 10 Oct 2000 04:23:07 GMT, "Diana Calder" <d.r.calder@home

wrote: Hi! Before I went on prescription antidepressants, I took St. Johns Wort for almost two years.  Gradually, I found that the effects of the St. Johns Wort did not work anymore.  I am starting to wonder if these interferons are the drugs that are causing all the depression in the first place?

No Diana,         I was first prescibed the Parnate in September 1995, well before the interferons (do you mean the drug ones like Betaferon?) were in use. And I am not on any of the ABC drugs. But I know it is a side effect of Betaseron. A girlfriend of mine attempted suicide while on that.   But I suspect there is a very wide range of symptoms of MS that are affected by neurotransmitters and the kind of thing that anti depressants work on. It is just psychoneuropharmacology! <g

I luvvv using that word!  doing things to our brain that

the MS has messed up…. sometimes the symptoms come out like depression. (and sometimes we really are depressed!) We are such a diverse mob! a question that I have about effects gradually wearing off, is, Is this a sign of "addiction"? I know that Parnate is said to be addictive, whereas Aurorix is said not to be…. The Parnate wore off, so I changed for a while. Now it is working again.                                         Linda http://www.ozemail.com.au/~lindafrd/

Response:

Question:

"Twenty-two Medications Used for Bipolar Mood Stabilization in the US" By James D. Milton Last Updated: 8/22/99

Thanks James —

Response:

Vigabatrin  – Sabrilex (severe vision problems? cocaine and nicotine addiction?)

Extreme caution should be used when taking vigabatrin! The trade name in the US is Sabril and in Europe it is Sabrilex. It is an anticonvulsant manufactured by Hoechst Marion Roussel that is unfortunately causing significant vision problems in a significant percentage of those taking it. It even appears that permanent vision damage may result. So with the next update of this article, I will omit vigabatrin. James

Response:

did i miss any info on zoloft? i do not see it mentioned. nor is there any info listed by you on tranquilizres. i just feel very suspiciose of valproic acid and some of the other meds you mention, for my own use. anyone who is allready on the meds and is benefitting good results should continue.  but iam only on zoloft/xanax and would like to know you opinion on that. should i ask my doc. about some of the mood elevators??? would they help me more???,,,harpyrec

Response:

<Posted and Mailed to Bruce did i miss any info on zoloft? i do not see it mentioned. nor is there any info listed by you on tranquilizers. i just feel very suspicious of valproic acid and some of the other meds you mention for my own use. anyone who is already on the meds and is benefiting good results should continue.  but i am only on zoloft/xanax and would like to know you opinion on that. should i ask my doc about some of the mood elevators??? would they help me more???,,,harpyrec

If I were to include all the antidepressants, the antianxiety meds, the antipsychotics, and all the other meds in a pdoc’s tool box, the number of meds would be several hundred long. I confined myself to those only having mood stabilizing properties. These I believe are the first line of defense for a person with BP disorder — though the others may prove to be very useful adjuncts. I personally don’t like any of the older mood stabilizers. But they work fine for some people. I am not telling you what to use. I am merely telling you what is available so you can discuss the pros and cons of each with your pdoc. My opinion is that a person with BP first needs to find a mood stabilizer (or combination of mood stabilizers) that is effective for them. Then the adjunct meds can be added later if needed. The more modern mood stabilizers (Neurontin, Lamictal, and Topamax) demonstrate strong antidepressant properties for some people. If you were taking Zoloft already and were very sensitive to these AD properties, you could wind up in a manic state if you started taking one of these mood stabilizers. I hope this answers your questions about my post. I suggest that you consult with your pdoc about your specific concerns. James D. Milton Standard Medical Disclaimer Any opinions stated should NOT be considered as medical advice! You should confirm any suggestions made with your physician who is solely responsible for prescribing ALL medications and monitoring the patient’s progress. Make NO changes in your prescribed dosages without the approval of your doctor!

Response:

"Twenty-two Medications Used for Bipolar Mood Stabilization in the US" By James D. Milton Last Updated: 8/22/99 <For best results specify that display and printing be done 80 characters/line  with a fixed pitch font to avoid line wrapping. Please see below for various psychotropic meds that are presently being used as mood stabilizing meds in the United States. I have not attempted to list either all of the adverse side effects or all the potential benefits from these psychoaffective medications because they vary considerably from person to person. In addition an entire book could easily be written about the pros and cons of these meds. A person with a Bipolar (BP) disorder will just have to keep on experimenting until they find the meds that are effective for each individual with side effects that can be personally tolerated. In general most people usually find that the newer mood stabilizers will have a more benign adverse side effect profile than the older meds. Also these meds may well prove to be more effective — particularly when the traditional older mood stabilizers have failed for some reason or another. For additional most important information about the efficacy of the newer mood stabilizers please see the following article: Current Treatments in Bipolar Disorder: http://www.cme-reviews.com/supplements.html Since these newer meds have not been available as long, the long term benefits and disadvantages are not as well known as the mood stabilizers that preceded them. Each person should thoroughly discuss ALL the various medication options together with their associated pros and cons with their pdoc (psychiatrist or psychopharmacologist). I strongly advocate a collaborative team approach between the patient and their physician and therapist. You can find out a lot about the treatment of bipolar disorder by visiting the following most informative Web page compiled by Dr. Ivan Goldberg and then following the many valuable links to other educational sites about bipolar disorder: Bipolar (Manic-Depressive) Disorder: http://www.psycom.net/depression.central.bipolar.html Knowledge, Patience, Persistence, and Med Compliance IMO are vital keys to victory over our common illness. I wish you all the very best in your search for mental stability and well being!                   "Information Regarding BP Mood Stabilizers" Note: Only some of the potentially important effects are listed in the       following tables. Since there are NO universal responses to any       particular psychotropic medication, a person MAY or MAY NOT       experience the positive benefits or the negative adverse side       effects. YBMV (Your Brain May Vary) — and likely will!                             Older Primary Mood Stabilizers Lithium       — Lithobid, Eskalith CR (thyroid damage? tremors? weight gain?) Divalproex Na — Depakote, Epival (liver damage? nausea? hair loss? weight gain?) Valproic acid — Depakene (similar to Depakote — including platelet decrease?) Carbamazepine — Tegretol XR, Carbatrol (rare life-threatening anemia and rash?)                   Newer Primary Mood Stabilizers (Anticonvulsants) Gabapentin  – Neurontin (antidepressant? antianxiety med? IMPROVES COGNITION?) Lamotrigine — Lamictal (antidepressant? rashes? rare life-threatening rash?) Topiramate  – Topamax (antidepressant? kidney stones? heart probs? WEIGHT LOSS?) Tiagabine   — Gabatril (blocks reuptake of GABA? cognitive impairment?) Felbamate   — Felbatol (possibility of developing fatal aplastic anemia?) Pregabalin  – (Currently in Phase III; analgesic? antianxiety? social phobia?) Vigabatrin  – Sobrilex (severe vision problems? cocaine and nicotine addiction?)     Calcium Channel Blockers (to be used ONLY as Secondary Mood Stabilizers) Verapamil   — Calan SR, Isoptin SR (anti-dysrhythmic/anginal/hypertensive agent) Nimodipine  – Nimotop (improves cognition? aids multiple sclerosis depression?) Amlodipine  – Norvasc, Lotrel (anti-hypertensive agent) Diltiazem   — Cardizem CD (anti-hypertensive/anginal agent) Felodipine  – Plendil (anti-hypertensive agent) Isradipine  – DynaCirc (anti-hypertensive agent) Nicardipine — Cardene (anti-hypertensive agent) Nifedipine  – Procardia XL (anti-hypertensive/anginal/pulmonary-edema agent)             Adjunctive Medications Having Mood Stabilizing Properties Clozapine — Clozaril (older antipsychotic to be used only with anticonvulsants) Levothyroxine — Synthroid (adjust T4 level to 25% the upper limit of normal) Liothyronine sodium — Cytomel (adjust T3 level to treat refractory depression) Combining two (or more) mood stabilizers MAY be more effective than when each is taken alone. This is called "polytherapy" as opposed to the more traditional "monotherapy". One med may "potentiate" the effectiveness of another — so that the total effect becomes greater than the sum of its individual contributors. I believe that the efficacy of this approach is becoming increasingly apparent — particularly in refractory cases. It is my personal belief that polytherapy should also be utilized in nonrefractory BP cases as well. This concept is a "defense-in-depth" approach. Where one mood stabilizer is weak, hopefully another will be able to compensate for this weakness. For additional important technical information on "combination" or polytherapy please see: The Role of Complex Combination Therapy in the Treatment of Refractory Bipolar Illness: http://www.cme-reviews.com/CNS598_post.html Lithium carbonate (or another mood stabilizer) may prove helpful as a secondary adjunct to one of the newer mood stabilizers which have demonstrated powerful antidepressive properties for some people. Consequently for example I suggest that Neurontin-lithium and Lamictal-lithium combinations be considered. It is also possible that subtherapeutic dosages of lithium carbonate may be taken so as to minimize its adverse side effects. My current recommendation for optimal results is Neurontin-Lamictal. However due to the potential strong antidepressive properties of each of these meds, suggested conservative dosage titration protocols are given below. Of course only one mood stabilizer dosage should be adjusted at a time. A calcium channel blocker should at this point only be used as a secondary mood stabilizer — solely in conjunction with an effective primary mood stabilizer. There is some evidence to suggest that calcium channel blockers may be effectively used as antimanic agents — possibly as a replacement for lithium. They appear to have a much more benign side effect profile because they do not cause weight gain, do not cause tremors, and are well tolerated for gastrointestinal upsets and other adverse side effects. Of the 8 calcium channel blockers listed above, verapamil and nimodipine are the ones most commonly being used. Nimodipine is unfortunately quite expensive but shows promise under certain circumstances. Nimodipine is one of the few drugs found to increase the cerebrospinal fluid levels of somatostatin, a neuropeptide known to be permanently reduced in patients with Alzheimer’s and transiently reduced during active episodes of both depression and multiple sclerosis. Somatostatin depletion is also associated with problems of learning and memory. Subjectively, a number of patients felt more cognitively clear on nimodipine. Clozaril (clozapine) is an atypical antipsychotic medication that has some potentially rather severe adverse side effects. Nevertheless Clozaril is being successfully used in polytherapy. However the US FDA requires weekly blood tests for the first six months and biweekly thereafter. So this IMO limits the utility of Clozaril in an outpatient basis. There are many antidepressant, antianxiety, antimania, antipsychotic, and thyroid supplement (T3 and T4) meds that may prove to be very useful adjuncts to mood stabilizers in the treatment of a BP condition. My first psychiatrist, Dr. Dean Ackley, found that many of his patients needed to have their T4 levels adjusted to be in the high end of the normal T4 range. Dr. Peter Whybrow (Executive Chair of Psychiatry and Biobehavioral Sciences at UCLA) advocates raising the T4 level even further to 25% beyond the upper limit of the normal range. Combinations of synthetic T3 (triiodothyronine) and T4 (thyroxine) are being used to successfully treat refractory depression. Headaches commonly result if too much supplementary T4 and/or T3 is taken. A Neurontin-Topamax* or Lamictal-Topamax* combination may well prove effective for those wishing to lose weight. Topamax* exhibits very powerful appetite suppression effects for some people. * It has recently come to my attention that several people with BP disorder have   experienced potentially serious cognitive and physical difficulties when   taking Topamax. It is possible that these were a result of too rapid dosage   loading. The suggested bipolar protocol for Topamax given below is one half   the rate and amount used to treat seizure disorder. Consequently very careful   monitoring is advised when Topamax is prescribed. I suggest a maximum of   100 mg BID until there is more information known about adverse side effects.   One known adverse side

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Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The feedback here is that it works for some people, doesn’t work for a lot of others. As I understand it, Meridia is not at all chemically similar to phen/fen and does not work on the system in a similar manner — the only similarity is that it is prescribed for the same condition, obesity. As for so-called "dangerous side effects," that should be "the suspicion that there might be dangerous side effects," not so far proven in any of the studies, but still generating enormous lawsuits. What there are already lawsuits going after Meridia, too? Tell me you’re kidding, please…

When the ambulance chasers salivating with greed invaded this newsgroup right after the recall, they were looking for people to join class actions for either of the two drugs. Inasmuch as I know someone who joined such a suit "just in case" — even though she had experienced no harm from the phen/fen — I can only assume that they got some Redux users, as well. I don’t know that any suits have been filed, but I know they were trying to get them started. — Truly Donovan reply to truly at lunemere dot com

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The feedback here is that it works for some people, doesn’t work for a lot of others. As I understand it, Meridia is not at all chemically similar to phen/fen and does not work on the system in a similar manner — the only similarity is that it is prescribed for the same condition, obesity. As for so-called "dangerous side effects," that should be "the suspicion that there might be dangerous side effects," not so far proven in any of the studies, but still generating enormous lawsuits. What there are already lawsuits going after Meridia, too? Tell me you’re kidding, please… When the ambulance chasers salivating with greed invaded this newsgroup right after the recall, they were looking for people to join class actions for either of the two drugs. Inasmuch as I know someone who joined such a suit "just in case" — even though she had experienced no harm from the phen/fen — I can only assume that they got some Redux users, as well. I don’t know that any suits have been filed, but I know they were trying to get them started.

Oh, so when you were talking about "dangerous side effects" and "enormous lawsuits" above you were talking about fen/Redux, and not Meridia, right? That wasn’t clear to me. As far as I know, the statute of limitations for filing class action suits on behalf of fen/phen "victims" has expired and I know of none that have been filed on time. As to invididual suits, none of them came out in favor of the so-called "victim". To email me, remove the X

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My doctor has suggested I try the prescription Meridia.  It is similar to Phen-Fen but without the dangerous side effects.  It works at stabilizing metabolism and reducing hunger.  His current users lose an average of 4 to 10 lbs. per month depending on if they exercise and diet in addtion to the pills.

I was on it for 6 weeks.  Didn’t work worth a damn–in fact, I think I gained a few pounds. My doctor switched me to phentermine, and I’ve been losing approx 10 pounds/month–35 now since May 1. — Steve Dyer

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My doctor has suggested I try the prescription Meridia.

My doctor put me on Meridia 4 weeks ago and so far so good!  I’ve lost 15 pounds and found that I feel full without a lot of cravings.  I’m also on  1000 calorie diet and trying to exercise on my treadmill 3-4 times a week.   I’ve been on 10mg but I’ve been feeling hungry and cravings the last few days so they’ve upped my prescription to 15mg which I’ll fill tomorrow. My major side effect was dry mouth, which has abated somewhat.  I had a killer headache on the second day but none since.  My blood pressure and heart rate are monitored regularly and haven’t shown any change, but I have always had low blood pressure so I wasn’t too worried about that possibility.  I was never on Fen/Phen so I can’t compare Meridia to it.  It is definitely nice to feel full without overeating for a change!! Kim 245/230/135 ComputerSmiths Consulting, Inc.                www.compusmiths.com   — Crafting Solutions for Computers

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If you give Meridia a try, I recommend having a complete physical before starting and then monitoring your blood pressure and heart rate carefully – perhaps even daily at first! While individual responses vary, mine was not so good. It suppressed my appetite to almost zero (positive!) but heart rate and blood pressure went up a lot. I felt great for the first two days. Then on day three of taking the medication I became so nauseous and light-headed I almost passed out at work and required medical attention. I was taking the recommended starting dose of 10 mg/day. It took three days for my heart rate to return to normal. The effect on my appetite was so dramatic that I am considering trying again at 5 mg dosage or taking 10 mg only every other day or two. — Katie– I never believe anything until it’s been officially denied. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My doctor has suggested I try the prescription Meridia.  It is similar to Phen-Fen but without the dangerous side effects.  It works at stabilizing metabolism and reducing hunger.  His current users lose an average of 4 to 10 lbs. per month depending on if they exercise and diet in addtion to the pills.

Response:

My doctor has suggested I try the prescription Meridia.  It is similar to Phen-Fen but without the dangerous side effects.  It works at stabilizing metabolism and reducing hunger.  His current users lose an average of 4 to 10 lbs. per month depending on if they exercise and diet in addtion to the pills.

The feedback here is that it works for some people, doesn’t work for a lot of others. As I understand it, Meridia is not at all chemically similar to phen/fen and does not work on the system in a similar manner — the only similarity is that it is prescribed for the same condition, obesity. As for so-called "dangerous side effects," that should be "the suspicion that there might be dangerous side effects," not so far proven in any of the studies, but still generating enormous lawsuits. — Truly Donovan reply to truly at lunemere dot com

Response:

The feedback here is that it works for some people, doesn’t work for a lot of others. As I understand it, Meridia is not at all chemically similar to phen/fen and does not work on the system in a similar manner — the only similarity is that it is prescribed for the same condition, obesity. As for so-called "dangerous side effects," that should be "the suspicion that there might be dangerous side effects," not so far proven in any of the studies, but still generating enormous lawsuits.

What there are already lawsuits going after Meridia, too? Tell me you’re kidding, please…

Response:

My doctor has suggested I try the prescription Meridia.  It is similar to Phen-Fen but without the dangerous side effects.  It works at stabilizing metabolism and reducing hunger.  His current users lose an average of 4 to 10 lbs. per month depending on if they exercise and diet in addtion to the pills.

I just went off Meridia after two non-effective months.  I had killer PMS while on it too– carbo/salt cravings you wouldn’t believe. My dr attributes this to the weight I already lost– says that my hormones are just working much better now. Well gee thanks hormones. I’ve gained back 7 since they took away the Fen…. and somedays I feel like I’m tottering on the edge of gaining it all back – M.

Response:

My doctor has suggested I try the prescription Meridia.  It is similar to Phen-Fen but without the dangerous side effects.  It works at stabilizing metabolism and reducing hunger.  His current users lose an average of 4 to 10 lbs. per month depending on if they exercise and diet in addtion to the pills.

Response:

  As I understand it, Meridia is not at all chemically similar to   phen/fen and does not work on the system in a similar manner Meridia (sibutramine) is a chemically a phenethylamine, just like Dexedrine, phentermine, fenfluramine, and Redux.  Pharmacologically, it does not work the same way as those drugs; it’s mechanism is almost identical to that of the antidepressant drug Effexor (venlafaxine).  Effexor is useless for weight loss (except as an unwanted side effect in a small number of people) and so is Meridia.

Response:

  My doctor has suggested I try the prescription Meridia.  It is similar to   Phen-Fen but without the dangerous side effects. There’s one other difference between Meridia and phen/fen: phen/fen worked, and Meridia doesn’t. Meridia wins on one count, however: it’s more expensive than phen/fen was. I predict that Meridia will be gone within a year, not because of some terrible side effect that’s discovered, but because it simply won’t sell. It doesn’t work any better than placebo.

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Meridia (sibutramine) is a chemically a phenethylamine, just like Dexedrine, phentermine, fenfluramine, and Redux.  Pharmacologically, it does not work the same way as those drugs; it’s mechanism is almost identical to that of the antidepressant drug Effexor (venlafaxine).  Effexor is useless for weight loss (except as an unwanted side effect in a small number of people) and so is Meridia.

Although I experienced a minor decrease in appetite while taking prozac, from what I understand more people gain weight on it than actually lose weight.  Do you know whether Effexor has the same reputation for causing weight gain?  If not, perhaps it would be worth a try to see if I’m one of that small number who loses. AB

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I’ve never heard of weight gain with Effexor.  A certain percentage of people experience weight loss with it, but the weight loss isn’t very significant.  I’ve been wondering lately whether Effexor combined with phentermine might be useful.  You could end up with overstimulation, at least theoretically, but it seems like they would potentiate one another. A few years ago, Lilly was going to try to get Prozac indicated for obesity. It does seem to suppress appetite in some people, but the effect is inconsistent, and even when it works, it’s not very dramatic. The world is still waiting for a really effective pharmacotherapy for obesity.  Phen/fen really seemed to have been it for a certain number of people, but I wasn’t one of them. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Meridia (sibutramine) is a chemically a phenethylamine, just like Dexedrine, phentermine, fenfluramine, and Redux.  Pharmacologically, it does not work the same way as those drugs; it’s mechanism is almost identical to that of the antidepressant drug Effexor (venlafaxine).  Effexor is useless for weight loss (except as an unwanted side effect in a small number of people) and so is Meridia. Although I experienced a minor decrease in appetite while taking prozac, from what I understand more people gain weight on it than actually lose weight.  Do you know whether Effexor has the same reputation for causing weight gain?  If not, perhaps it would be worth a try to see if I’m one of that small number who loses. AB

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:   I’ve just begun doing web searches for info on Effexor.  Having found :   anything addressing the combination of the Effexor and Phen yet.  Anyone :   have any info/ideas? : I haven’t found anything anywhere specifically addressing the combination. : A good place to look for information on stuff like this is MedLine, which : you can get to at http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/PubMed/ Okay, thanks. : The chemical name of Effexor is venlafaxine (MedLine refers to drugs by : their chemical names). : I’ve been searching for information on the combination of venlafaxine and : phentermine lately.  If I find anything, I’ll be sure to post it. : One possible concern about this combo would definitely be blood pressure. : Effexor, like Meridia (they’re very similar drugs) can cause a sustained : increase in blood pressure.  Phentermine can increase blood pressure too, : and should be used with caution where there’s already high blood pressure. : Of course, obesity has its own health risks, and on the balance, the risks : of the drug-induced hypertension may be offset by the benefits of weight : loss.  At least, this was the argument that Knoll (makers of Meridia) made : to get their product on the market. Yes, I’m a little worried about this doctor’s attention to health-related side effects – I realized after I left his office that he hadn’t even taken my blood pressure!  I’ve been having my blood pressure read every month or so throughout all med changes (phen/fen, phen/pro, etc.), and it’s always been around 110/70, so I’m not terribly worried, but obviously I’m going to have to be the one staying on top of what side effects to be worried about. It’s hard finding a doc who is informed about the brain/body aspects of obesity, knows the meds, the possible side effects, is open-minded (doesn’t prescribe diet/exercise exclusively), knows how to listen, and is a good overall doctor…  I just recently got med insurance after doing without (stupid, I know; I kept _meaning_ to get an individual plan, but the cost was offputting) for almost 2 years.  So I’m shopping. Julie

Response:

My doctor has suggested I try the prescription Meridia.  It is similar to Phen-Fen but without the dangerous side effects. There’s one other difference between Meridia and phen/fen: phen/fen worked, and Meridia doesn’t. Meridia wins on one count, however: it’s more expensive than phen/fen was. I predict that Meridia will be gone within a year, not because of some terrible side effect that’s discovered, but because it simply won’t sell. It doesn’t work any better than placebo.

Placebos work for some people; so does Meridia. If it has to be expensive to have that effect, so be it. — Truly Donovan reply to truly at lunemere dot com

Response:

  I’ve just begun doing web searches for info on Effexor.  Having found   anything addressing the combination of the Effexor and Phen yet.  Anyone   have any info/ideas? I haven’t found anything anywhere specifically addressing the combination. A good place to look for information on stuff like this is MedLine, which you can get to at http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/PubMed/ The chemical name of Effexor is venlafaxine (MedLine refers to drugs by their chemical names). I’ve been searching for information on the combination of venlafaxine and phentermine lately.  If I find anything, I’ll be sure to post it. One possible concern about this combo would definitely be blood pressure. Effexor, like Meridia (they’re very similar drugs) can cause a sustained increase in blood pressure.  Phentermine can increase blood pressure too, and should be used with caution where there’s already high blood pressure. Of course, obesity has its own health risks, and on the balance, the risks of the drug-induced hypertension may be offset by the benefits of weight loss.  At least, this was the argument that Knoll (makers of Meridia) made to get their product on the market.

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: I’ve never heard of weight gain with Effexor.  A certain percentage of : people experience weight loss with it, but the weight loss isn’t very : significant.  I’ve been wondering lately whether Effexor combined with : phentermine might be useful.  You could end up with overstimulation, at : least theoretically, but it seems like they would potentiate one another. Funny you should mention this.  Just yesterday I saw a new doctor, who seems to be developing a subspecialty in treating weight.  I told him my history – success with phen/fen, no success with Meridia or phen/pro or phen/wellbutrin, maintaining with difficulty on phen and 5-HTP.  He said that the only combo he’s been having success with has been phentermine and Effexor, so I’m starting that today.  Currently 30 mgs phentermine, 37.5 Effexor.   I’ve just begun doing web searches for info on Effexor.  Having found anything addressing the combination of the Effexor and Phen yet.  Anyone have any info/ideas? Julie

Response:

I have been getting killer headaches when I take 15 mg, but not when I take 10 mg.  It’s happening consistantly enough that I think it’s related to the dosage.  Otherwise, I’ve been really happy with it. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My doctor has suggested I try the prescription Meridia. My doctor put me on Meridia 4 weeks ago and so far so good!  I’ve lost 15 pounds and found that I feel full without a lot of cravings.  I’m also on  1000 calorie diet and trying to exercise on my treadmill 3-4 times a week.   I’ve been on 10mg but I’ve been feeling hungry and cravings the last few days so they’ve upped my prescription to 15mg which I’ll fill tomorrow. My major side effect was dry mouth, which has abated somewhat.  I had a killer headache on the second day but none since.  My blood pressure and heart rate are monitored regularly and haven’t shown any change, but I have always had low blood pressure so I wasn’t too worried about that possibility.  I was never on Fen/Phen so I can’t compare Meridia to it.  It is definitely nice to feel full without overeating for a change!! Kim 245/230/135 ComputerSmiths Consulting, Inc.                www.compusmiths.com   — Crafting Solutions for Computers

Response:

Do you know whether Effexor has the same reputation for causing weight gain?  If not, perhaps it would be worth a try to see if I’m one of that small number who loses. AB

I gained weiht on both drugs, not as much on Prozac, but quite a bit on Effexor, say 20 pounds over a 6 month period. JaneG

Response:

My doctor has suggested I try the prescription Meridia.  It is similar to Phen-Fen but without the dangerous side effects.  It works at stabilizing metabolism and reducing hunger.  His current users lose an average of 4 to 10 lbs. per month depending on if they exercise and diet in addtion to the pills.

If they exercise and diet WITHOUT the pills they’ll lose 4 lbs a month.  It doesn’t sound like it’s worth it.

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