Question:

Sound off.

Yep, it still gets noizy. But I’m up for it. Puter

Response:

I’m definitely out of it…  But

truthfully, I’m wondering if it wasn’t more of a function of the Zyban.  (I read a study about that being a new possible use).  But it definitely tapered off when I went off the pills.  *sigh* I was actually thinking last night about going back on them, just for that reason : ) Anyone else experience this? Jo

One of the side effects of Wellbutrin (Zyban) can be increased libido. Sure has those side effects like dry mouth and upset stomach beat all to hell. I was on wellbutrin almost a year before I quit, so I tend not to count it in with my quit method. I know that doc’s who prescribe the SSRI antidepressants like Prozac, Effexor, and Zoloft (all of which can decrease the libido) often prescribe Wellbutrin as well, to counteract the effect. My doc just recently put me back on the Wellbutrin, not for depression, but as part of my treatment for FMS/arthritis. So I’ve been learning of other effects it can have. Vic HOF+

Response:

I love your comics : ) I’m definitely out of it…  But truthfully, I’m wondering if it wasn’t more of a function of the Zyban.  (I read a study about that being a new possible use).  But it definitely tapered off when I went off the pills.  *sigh*  I was actually thinking last night about going back on them, just for that reason : ) Anyone else experience this? Jo One month, three weeks, four days, 17 hours, 10 minutes and 36 seconds spent free. 780 times I didn’t cave, $291.51 not gone up in smoke. Life gratefully saved: 2 days, 17 hours, 0 minutes. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Come on; we talk about everything else here– death, bowel movements, pets, mouth sores, employment, hobbies, child-rearing, smutty jokes, etc.,etc… Sound off. Who’s in it and who’s past it and who’s waiting for it to start? I’m wondering if it ever ends, frankly…. http://www.quitbuddies.org/NewComix.html

Response:

I love your comics : ) I’m definitely out of it…  But truthfully, I’m wondering if it wasn’t more of a function of the Zyban.  (I read a study about that being a new possible use).  But it definitely tapered off when I went off the pills.  *sigh*  I was actually thinking last night about going back on them, just for that reason : ) Anyone else experience this?

Oh, yeah!  But here’s the way mine went:  Wellbutrin (yippee!), off of that & onto Zoloft (droop-no-go), off the Zoloft and after being off of it ALL for 3 or 4 weeks or so now everything is back up to Wellbutrin (Yippee!) level again, only without the Wellbutrin.  However, all of these anti-Ds were for moodiness caused by hormonal fluctuations, so I also started on hormone replacement therapy about 3 weeks ago and the improvement could be due to that.  Whatever, I’m a happy camper (and so is my hubby) again and I’m not having to take any anti-Ds either.  Not too bad for a 45 year ole’ lady, huh? ;^) —    BinnieBee – Proudly Wearing HOF+M Status;^)        %%      (—-)     ( __< )     ^^ ~~ ^^     ~f3as3~  http://www.quitbuddies.org/frogs.html

Response:

Come on; we talk about everything else here– death, bowel movements, pets, mouth sores, employment, hobbies, child-rearing, smutty jokes, etc.,etc… Sound off. Who’s in it and who’s past it and who’s waiting for it to start? I’m wondering if it ever ends, frankly…. http://www.quitbuddies.org/NewComix.html

Response:

Patty’s sleeping already.  Does that answer yer question there, Jef? <vbg Lee — 4w 2d 21h smoke-free, 1,853 cigs not smoked, $277.95 saved. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Come on; we talk about everything else here– death, bowel movements, pets, mouth sores, employment, hobbies, child-rearing, smutty jokes, etc.,etc… Sound off. Who’s in it and who’s past it and who’s waiting for it to start? I’m wondering if it ever ends, frankly…. http://www.quitbuddies.org/NewComix.html

Response:

Come on; we talk about everything else here– death, bowel movements, pets, mouth sores, employment, hobbies, child-rearing, smutty jokes, etc.,etc… Sound off. Who’s in it and who’s past it and who’s waiting for it to start? I’m wondering if it ever ends, frankly…. http://www.quitbuddies.org/NewComix.html

Response:

Patty’s sleeping already.  Does that answer yer question there, Jef? <vbg Lee — 4w 2d 21h smoke-free, 1,853 cigs not smoked, $277.95 saved. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Come on; we talk about everything else here– death, bowel movements, pets, mouth sores, employment, hobbies, child-rearing, smutty jokes, etc.,etc… Sound off. Who’s in it and who’s past it and who’s waiting for it to start? I’m wondering if it ever ends, frankly…. http://www.quitbuddies.org/NewComix.html

Response:

I love your comics : ) I’m definitely out of it…  But truthfully, I’m wondering if it wasn’t more of a function of the Zyban.  (I read a study about that being a new possible use).  But it definitely tapered off when I went off the pills.  *sigh*  I was actually thinking last night about going back on them, just for that reason : ) Anyone else experience this? Jo One month, three weeks, four days, 17 hours, 10 minutes and 36 seconds spent free. 780 times I didn’t cave, $291.51 not gone up in smoke. Life gratefully saved: 2 days, 17 hours, 0 minutes. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Come on; we talk about everything else here– death, bowel movements, pets, mouth sores, employment, hobbies, child-rearing, smutty jokes, etc.,etc… Sound off. Who’s in it and who’s past it and who’s waiting for it to start? I’m wondering if it ever ends, frankly…. http://www.quitbuddies.org/NewComix.html

Response:

I love your comics : ) I’m definitely out of it…  But truthfully, I’m wondering if it wasn’t more of a function of the Zyban.  (I read a study about that being a new possible use).  But it definitely tapered off when I went off the pills.  *sigh*  I was actually thinking last night about going back on them, just for that reason : ) Anyone else experience this?

Oh, yeah!  But here’s the way mine went:  Wellbutrin (yippee!), off of that & onto Zoloft (droop-no-go), off the Zoloft and after being off of it ALL for 3 or 4 weeks or so now everything is back up to Wellbutrin (Yippee!) level again, only without the Wellbutrin.  However, all of these anti-Ds were for moodiness caused by hormonal fluctuations, so I also started on hormone replacement therapy about 3 weeks ago and the improvement could be due to that.  Whatever, I’m a happy camper (and so is my hubby) again and I’m not having to take any anti-Ds either.  Not too bad for a 45 year ole’ lady, huh? ;^) —    BinnieBee – Proudly Wearing HOF+M Status;^)        %%      (—-)     ( __< )     ^^ ~~ ^^     ~f3as3~  http://www.quitbuddies.org/frogs.html

Response:

Sound off.

Yep, it still gets noizy. But I’m up for it. Puter

Response:

I’m definitely out of it…  But

truthfully, I’m wondering if it wasn’t more of a function of the Zyban.  (I read a study about that being a new possible use).  But it definitely tapered off when I went off the pills.  *sigh* I was actually thinking last night about going back on them, just for that reason : ) Anyone else experience this? Jo

One of the side effects of Wellbutrin (Zyban) can be increased libido. Sure has those side effects like dry mouth and upset stomach beat all to hell. I was on wellbutrin almost a year before I quit, so I tend not to count it in with my quit method. I know that doc’s who prescribe the SSRI antidepressants like Prozac, Effexor, and Zoloft (all of which can decrease the libido) often prescribe Wellbutrin as well, to counteract the effect. My doc just recently put me back on the Wellbutrin, not for depression, but as part of my treatment for FMS/arthritis. So I’ve been learning of other effects it can have. Vic HOF+

Response:

Question:

The standard answer I’ve encountered is that effexor withdrawal is bad *because* effexor has such a short half-life. At best, this is only part of the answer. For example, a carefull 2 week taper can mimic the decay curve of a drug with a 2 week half-life, but a 2 week taper is manifestly not enough for effexor. Why not? One idea I had is that perhaps there is a phenomenon called "kindling" involved. This is the idea that going through an even minor drug withdrawal in some way predisposes the central nervous system to undergo more severe withdrawals from the same drug in the future. This phenomenon is pretty well established in the case of alcohol, where it is alcoholics who have already gone through a number of detoxes who are most at risk for developing DTs. Maybe the shorter half-life of effexor means that your body is constantly going through mini-withdrawals and setting you up for a really big withdrawal in the future. The only problem with this theory that I see is that it would seem to suggest that effexor xr has less of a withdrawal problem than regular effexor, but I don’t think that this is the case. Any ideas? -scattered

Response:

No ideas, but one remedy I’ve heard for Effex withdrawl is to take a Prozac along with it as you taper. Prozac is the opposite in that it stays in the system for weeks and weeks and helps the process… Only hearsay however.. Experience, anyone?

Response:

hya scattered half lives, etc reminds me too much of chemistry and physics, so i will avoid responding to that one (plus i dont have a scooby)! I know that any time I’ve tried to come off the normal efexor i’ve had terrible feelings of being physically ill and weird nightmares, anxiety and more severe agoraphobia. It’s funny, cos I’m on weekly prescriptions of efexor (due to recurrent OD’s) and my GP has threatened to stop prescribing it to me.  Would he be that cruel ? Does he not know how bad coming off efexor is?  Perhaps he’s just bluffing to scare me into behaving myself. Anyway, it might have something to do with the half life.  I will ask my GP on Thursday and see what he has to say.  Not sure he’ll be able to enlighten me, but I can but try.  I’ll update you if he says anything interesting. lisa

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The standard answer I’ve encountered is that effexor withdrawal is bad *because* effexor has such a short half-life. At best, this is only part of the answer. For example, a carefull 2 week taper can mimic the decay curve of a drug with a 2 week half-life, but a 2 week taper is manifestly not enough for effexor. Why not? One idea I had is that perhaps there is a phenomenon called "kindling" involved. This is the idea that going through an even minor drug withdrawal in some way predisposes the central nervous system to undergo more severe withdrawals from the same drug in the future. This phenomenon is pretty well established in the case of alcohol, where it is alcoholics who have already gone through a number of detoxes who are most at risk for developing DTs. Maybe the shorter half-life of effexor means that your body is constantly going through mini-withdrawals and setting you up for a really big withdrawal in the future. The only problem with this theory that I see is that it would seem to suggest that effexor xr has less of a withdrawal problem than regular effexor, but I don’t think that this is the case. Any ideas? -scattered

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – << The standard answer I’ve encountered is that effexor withdrawal is bad *because* effexor has such a short half-life. At best, this is only part of the answer. For example, a carefull 2 week taper can mimic the decay curve of a drug with a 2 week half-life, but a 2 week taper is manifestly not enough for effexor. Why not? This is THE answer to why Effexor has such a bad "withdrawal" as some call it. It is indeed due to Effexor’s short half life. All the antidepressants which have very short half lives tend to have a bad withdrawal. Paxil is even shorter than Effexor and Paxil has a notorious "withdrawal." As Effexor has this short half life, this means it exits your body at high speed which hurts and results in "Effexor withdrawal." One idea I had is that perhaps there is a phenomenon called "kindling" involved. This is the idea that going through an even minor drug withdrawal in some way predisposes the central nervous system to undergo more severe withdrawals from the same drug in the future. This phenomenon is pretty well established in the case of alcohol, where it is alcoholics who have already gone through a number of detoxes who are most at risk for developing DTs. Maybe the shorter half-life of effexor means that your body is constantly going through mini-withdrawals and setting you up for a really big withdrawal in the future. The only problem with this theory that I see is that it would seem to suggest that effexor xr has less of a withdrawal problem than regular effexor, but I don’t think that this is the case. No, your "kindling" theory is bullshit. That has nothing to do with antidepressant withdrawal.

From the expert sophists mouth, so just drop the idea, Eric does not like it.  The fact that the kindling idea is a theory as promising as the one which supports the use of SSRI’s is of no interest to Eric. On the other hand other people are willing to entertain such ideas, not necessarily accept them, but surely consider them. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The main reason is due to the short half lives some of these ADs have. Notice that Prozac has an extremely long half live and nobody ever complains of a bad withdrawal when they go off Prozac. Voila…there you go.

Response:

<< The standard answer I’ve encountered is that effexor withdrawal is bad *because* effexor has such a short half-life. At best, this is only part of the answer. For example, a carefull 2 week taper can mimic the decay curve of a drug with a 2 week half-life, but a 2 week taper is manifestly not enough for effexor. Why not? This is THE answer to why Effexor has such a bad "withdrawal" as some call it. It is indeed due to Effexor’s short half life. All the antidepressants which have very short half lives tend to have a bad withdrawal. Paxil is even shorter than Effexor and Paxil has a notorious "withdrawal." As Effexor has this short half life, this means it exits your body at high speed which hurts and results in "Effexor withdrawal."

Thank you for your response. However, it doesn’t address the question of *why* a short half-life produces viscious withdrawal symptoms. If it was simply that the drug left the system so fast that the brain didn’t have time to adjust, then a relatively quick taper should fix the problem. But it doesn’t – so I think that something more must be going on. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – One idea I had is that perhaps there is a phenomenon called "kindling" involved. This is the idea that going through an even minor drug withdrawal in some way predisposes the central nervous system to undergo more severe withdrawals from the same drug in the future. This phenomenon is pretty well established in the case of alcohol, where it is alcoholics who have already gone through a number of detoxes who are most at risk for developing DTs. Maybe the shorter half-life of effexor means that your body is constantly going through mini-withdrawals and setting you up for a really big withdrawal in the future. The only problem with this theory that I see is that it would seem to suggest that effexor xr has less of a withdrawal problem than regular effexor, but I don’t think that this is the case. No, your "kindling" theory is bullshit. That has nothing to do with antidepressant withdrawal. The main reason is due to the short half lives some of these ADs have. Notice that Prozac has an extremely long half live and nobody ever complains of a bad withdrawal when they go off Prozac. Voila…there you go. Eric

In my view – the kindling theory (not mine, by the way) was an attempt to explain *why* a short half-life leads to such a viscious withdrawal syndrome. I have no formal training in nueroscience, so it was just an educated guess. If you are aware of any research relevant to the question I would be interested in seeing it. After all – why be satisfied with bullshit if genuine knowledge is possible? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Any ideas? -scattered Steroids caused my depression…prednisone should be used conservatively http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FactsAndFallaciesOfDepression MIBS (Minimally Invasive Brain Stimulation) http://www.musc.edu/psychiatry/fnrd/tms.htm

Response:

Question:

Hi, I’ve been sufferig from epilepsy for about 12 years now, trying all sorts of medications and combinations without getting any noticable improvement. A year ago I started a new combination that improved my condition greatly, Sodium Valperate 700mg 3 times a day & Lamictal 75mg twice a day. unfortunately it brought with it some very aggrevating sideaffects. Several months after starting that combination,my right forefinger started trembling uncontrolably, later my pinky started the same kind of tremble and at the moment I’m starting to develop the same kind of tremble in my left hand as well. This is a very light tremble (not like "Parkinson"), steel it is very disturbing. For example, it forces me to hold my forefinger with my thumb if I don’t use it while typing to prevent it from disturbing my conentartion (this is only one example). Does anybody have any experiance with the use of this combination ? If you do, let me know. Thanks, B.G

Response:

Your best bet is to have it checked out next time you see your doctor.  It may be side effects from your meds that could be easily corrected.  

Response:

Hi BG, My daughter Harley used to be on that combination and i`m afraid to say it made her very very poorly ;-( She used to get "tremors" with it…in fact she got so bad that her whole body shook. But she obviously had a bad reaction to it. Could it be breakthrough sz`s? She also tremors from the ep. Have you ever tried Topiramate?…When Harley had to be weaned off the Lamotrogine,she was put onto that. Although she still doesn`t have full control,it has been the best combo she has had,and at the moment seems to be doing really well(for her!). My youngest son Marshall has just started on Lamotrogine with Epilim too,so please wish me(him!) luck! I hope you get some answers,please let us all know how you get on. Lisa,James,Harley and Marshall ;0) Zvi Galil <g_…@netvision.net.il

wrote in message

news:8umj9e$g3u$2@news.netvision.net.il… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Hi, I’ve been sufferig from epilepsy for about 12 years now, trying all sorts

of

medications and combinations without getting any noticable improvement. A year ago I started a new combination that improved my condition greatly, Sodium Valperate 700mg 3 times a day & Lamictal 75mg twice a day. unfortunately it brought with it some very aggrevating sideaffects. Several months after starting that combination,my right forefinger started trembling uncontrolably, later my pinky started the same kind of tremble

and

at the moment I’m starting to develop the same kind of tremble in my left hand as well. This is a very light tremble (not like "Parkinson"), steel it is very disturbing. For example, it forces me to hold my forefinger with my thumb if I don’t

use

it while typing to prevent it from disturbing my conentartion (this is only one example). Does anybody have any experiance with the use of this combination ? If you do, let me know. Thanks, B.G

Response:

You may want to be checked out by your doctor to see if it is side effects of medication.  You may also want him/her to check and see if it is the neurological movement disorder called essential tremor.  I have this and it makes me shake uncontrollably like you are talking about.  Hope you get the help you need. Rounder3 <round…@aol.com

wrote in message

news:20001113102239.20750.00001376@ng-fd1.aol.com… | Your best bet is to have it checked out next time you see your doctor.  It may | be side effects from your meds that could be easily corrected.

Response:

Hi, I see that you’ve already got some good recommendations already. It helps to know that you’re not alone, doesn’t it? My nieces has epilepsy and I have narcolepsy. I was put on a drug many years ago which I thought was an answer to prayer. It was called NARDIL. I have heard that it’s been around for a long time and not used too much anymore because of it’s diet constraints. If one doesn’t follow the diet restrictions instructed while taking the drug it could cause stroke/heart attack at any age. Anyway, I felt great on it initially,….was awake and had energy during the day. THEN the weird facial palsy stuff started happening. First gradually, just at night a couple of times and then more often and happening during the day. I was scared and didn’t think about relating side-effects to the drug at first. Then another side-effect was that I *couldn’t* get more sleep than 4 hours at a time and my body became more and more exhausted. The drug wasn’t "letting" my brain have normal sleep anymore in reverse. Narcolepsy without medication is when you fall asleep ALL the time. Needless to say, I reported to my doctor and was taken off the drug. She told me that the side-effects I had did happen to some people when taking Nardil. Additionally, once I was given *Phenothyiasine* (sp?) when I was a teenager for "dry heaves" when I was extremely ill with the flu. Gross,…but I kept retching even when I didn’t have any more to throw up. (sorry for description) By end of day two on it, it was throughing me into seizures. So unfortunately, what you’re experiencing could be directly related to your medication, but as the others have urged,….it’s best to go to your doctor about it. Sara  :) Zvi Galil <g_…@netvision.net.il

wrote in message

news:8umj9e$g3u$2@news.netvision.net.il… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Hi, I’ve been sufferig from epilepsy for about 12 years now, trying all sorts

of

medications and combinations without getting any noticable improvement. A year ago I started a new combination that improved my condition greatly, Sodium Valperate 700mg 3 times a day & Lamictal 75mg twice a day. unfortunately it brought with it some very aggrevating sideaffects. Several months after starting that combination,my right forefinger started trembling uncontrolably, later my pinky started the same kind of tremble

and

at the moment I’m starting to develop the same kind of tremble in my left hand as well. This is a very light tremble (not like "Parkinson"), steel it is very disturbing. For example, it forces me to hold my forefinger with my thumb if I don’t

use

it while typing to prevent it from disturbing my conentartion (this is only one example). Does anybody have any experiance with the use of this combination ? If you do, let me know. Thanks, B.G

______________________________________________________________________ Posted Via Uncensored-News.Com – Still Only $9.95 – http://www.uncensored-news.com  With Servers In California, Texas And Virginia – The Worlds Uncensored News Source

Response:

Question:

I am not sure why I am telling all of you this, I guess I am ready to have some of you know you are not alone in this misery, it may manifest itself in different ways but we are all in a place that isn’t funny…my rants or laughter at most craziness in my life is just a way for me to cope with all the crap that has happened.

Thankyou Cherly I am not sure why you posted this but I am glad you did.  I have posted some off my hell here and revealed a bit more on anx/pan.  One day I hope to be able to reveal all off me but I am not ready for that yet.  A big milestone for me was putting my pic on the ASAP gallery. I love your posts and your very naturalness, your pure humanity. Simon

Response:

guarding angel. Love Cathy — P.H.O.B.I.A. People Helping Others Become Independent Again Off-line Self Help Support Group, NJ http://community.nj.com/cc/phobia Anxiety Treatment Options http://www.members.tripod.com/~PhobiaGroup/index.html

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It started when they put a big fat tube in my abdominal cavityfor peritoneal dialysis…then when things got bad(I got very very ill) they put a nice catheter in my upper chest and told me not to get that wet(infection) so taking a shower was not an option…For some reason, don’t ask my why,I became so germophobic with all of these tubes hanging out of me and recent surgery on my left arm(to make an access for hemodialysis) just rendered me simple.  I made my step dad take out the shower doors and then we put up a curtain and I would hand shower with the thing open freezing my ass off but that is how I did it.  It took me HOURS to get into the shower, I had to pop pain pills after awhile to escape the fear and quirks I was developing.  I finally would have such a "icky" phobia I could barely touch Christa, Ted, any human or any surface..I would just have others help out while I sat and rocked in my chair.  It was a hell I will never go back to I don’t care what I have to take or do.  Finally I made myself just get in there and that took a long time to conquer, the removal of all tubes was of course, another breakthrough.  While I was doing this I was digging at my head, tearing my head up just to feel something.  I had so many sores on my head I had to let my hair grow long as I couldn’t even brush it. Only Margrove and a couple of others knows this.  He helped me get over through it and it’s nice to have my hair short and my head free of pain.  It hurt me so much I would get migraines  I would wake up with blood everywhere…my poor husband was just at a loss.  So when some idiot tells me I should kick the benzo or SSRI thing I just want to take him back to the time I sat in a chair every day for a fucking year with bloody nails, dirty body and depression that was leading to suicide and make him or her sit with me. I wish more than anything I could have done it myself or without meds, but I couldn’t.  But yes, you are not alone with the shower thing… I am so happy to be as far as I am. I am thankful to God that I can run my hands through my hair and not feel potholes of blood. I am not sure why I am telling all of you this, I guess I am ready to have some of you know you are not alone in this misery, it may manifest itself in different ways but we are all in a place that isn’t funny…my rants or laughter at most craziness in my life is just a way for me to cope with all the crap that has happened. Cheryl love, you *have* come a very long way indeed…..you’re a real survivor and such a sweet and witty and lovable person. It’s a joy to know you. Our learned friend Margrove – sometimes it *must* be said – is a true marvel. He helped so many here both in public and in private email… we had *professionals* here before but never like this, engaging into ASAP dynamics and giving so much without ever being patronizing and you can even have fun with him. I’ll stop here because otherwise he might get too big for his boots <g but I think we all should realize what a true *treasure* we have for a friend…. Philip — TC3 ~~snipped~~ I would spend six hours trying to get into my shower and probably spend the rest of my life in this condo without ever leaving. Ahhhh, so I am NOT strange to hate the shower now!!  I feel much better knowing it isn’t just me! R Til Later…. ~~R "What makes us discontented with our condition is the absurdly exaggerated idea we have of the happiness of others"   -Proverbs

Response:

Oh Cheryl honey, I never knew things were that bad for you.  I commend you on your openness and courage.  These anti-benzo people have no idea how they are effecting us.  Right now I am tapering off Effexor XR with the help of a Benzo, if I didn’t have my Xanax I would be in the ER every night. Love Ya Cathy — P.H.O.B.I.A. People Helping Others Become Independent Again Off-line Self Help Support Group, NJ http://community.nj.com/cc/phobia Anxiety Treatment Options http://www.members.tripod.com/~PhobiaGroup/index.html

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It started when they put a big fat tube in my abdominal cavityfor peritoneal dialysis…then when things got bad(I got very very ill) they put a nice catheter in my upper chest and told me not to get that wet(infection) so taking a shower was not an option…For some reason, don’t ask my why,I became so germophobic with all of these tubes hanging out of me and recent surgery on my left arm(to make an access for hemodialysis) just rendered me simple.  I made my step dad take out the shower doors and then we put up a curtain and I would hand shower with the thing open freezing my ass off but that is how I did it.  It took me HOURS to get into the shower, I had to pop pain pills after awhile to escape the fear and quirks I was developing.  I finally would have such a "icky" phobia I could barely touch Christa, Ted, any human or any surface..I would just have others help out while I sat and rocked in my chair.  It was a hell I will never go back to I don’t care what I have to take or do.  Finally I made myself just get in there and that took a long time to conquer, the removal of all tubes was of course, another breakthrough.  While I was doing this I was digging at my head, tearing my head up just to feel something.  I had so many sores on my head I had to let my hair grow long as I couldn’t even brush it. Only Margrove and a couple of others knows this.  He helped me get over through it and it’s nice to have my hair short and my head free of pain.  It hurt me so much I would get migraines  I would wake up with blood everywhere…my poor husband was just at a loss.  So when some idiot tells me I should kick the benzo or SSRI thing I just want to take him back to the time I sat in a chair every day for a fucking year with bloody nails, dirty body and depression that was leading to suicide and make him or her sit with me. I wish more than anything I could have done it myself or without meds, but I couldn’t.  But yes, you are not alone with the shower thing… I am so happy to be as far as I am. I am thankful to God that I can run my hands through my hair and not feel potholes of blood. I am not sure why I am telling all of you this, I guess I am ready to have some of you know you are not alone in this misery, it may manifest itself in different ways but we are all in a place that isn’t funny…my rants or laughter at most craziness in my life is just a way for me to cope with all the crap that has happened. — TC3 ~~snipped~~ I would spend six hours trying to get into my shower and probably spend the rest of my life in this condo without ever leaving. Ahhhh, so I am NOT strange to hate the shower now!!  I feel much better knowing it isn’t just me! R Til Later…. ~~R "What makes us discontented with our condition is the absurdly exaggerated idea we have of the happiness of others"   -Proverbs

Response:

Hi, Dot, Squid – YUK!  but I have always said whatever it would take to overcome pd would be something I would do – even if it meant squid…  You know what I mean. smiles, elise

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – {{{{{Dot}}}}}} Could you imagine ingesting squid when the PA hit? GAG. Thank you Dot, coming from you makes this special.  And you know what, all of you could do what I did, it took a lot of praying, yakking away on here and of course, bugging Margrove to death.  :o) Love Cheryl — TC3 If squid with Grey Poupon(sp) on rice cakes cured this misery, I would eat it three times a day. IF Snickers was a cure…oh my…I won’t even go there!  I think we are all unique, some can do this without meds, some of us can’t, I can’t. If I go off at this point I will end up doing a destructive behavior that was difficult to stop, I would spend six hours trying to get into my shower and probably spend the rest of my life in this condo without ever leaving.  Fuck that(excuse my dirty mouth) I will stick to my meds until *I* know it’s time to try to fly alone.  That may not be ever so I am willing to deal with THAT later.  I have been through too much in the physical sense too and with that came issues of dying and other life threatening scenes, if ativan and remeron keep me from living and not dwelling on dying  then so be it.  And yes, laughter is the very best medicine and VERY addicting…  :o) — TC3 sorry to make light, just trying to make you all laugh a bit. We are all so differently made, unique in many ways, isn’t that the fun part of the human race?  Again, many different kinds of people with varied pasts and experiences.. .many differently types of treatments, therapies, and meds.  Hmmm. . . . — David (swirling_eddies) Very well spoken, Cheryl.  Dealing with your physical problems in addition to PD would be more than I could take, I’m afraid.  We are so lucky to live at a time when there are good meds (and good transplants)! I don’t know about the squid though… Love, Dot Before you buy.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It started when they put a big fat tube in my abdominal cavityfor peritoneal dialysis…then when things got bad(I got very very ill) they put a nice catheter in my upper chest and told me not to get that wet(infection) so taking a shower was not an option…For some reason, don’t ask my why,I became so germophobic with all of these tubes hanging out of me and recent surgery on my left arm(to make an access for hemodialysis) just rendered me simple.  I made my step dad take out the shower doors and then we put up a curtain and I would hand shower with the thing open freezing my ass off but that is how I did it.  It took me HOURS to get into the shower, I had to pop pain pills after awhile to escape the fear and quirks I was developing.  I finally would have such a "icky" phobia I could barely touch Christa, Ted, any human or any surface..I would just have others help out while I sat and rocked in my chair.  It was a hell I will never go back to I don’t care what I have to take or do.  Finally I made myself just get in there and that took a long time to conquer, the removal of all tubes was of course, another breakthrough.  While I was doing this I was digging at my head, tearing my head up just to feel something.  I had so many sores on my head I had to let my hair grow long as I couldn’t even brush it.  Only Margrove and a couple of others knows this.  He helped me get over through it and it’s nice to have my hair short and my head free of pain.  It hurt me so much I would get migraines  I would wake up with blood everywhere…my poor husband was just at a loss.  So when some idiot tells me I should kick the benzo or SSRI thing I just want to take him back to the time I sat in a chair every day for a fucking year with bloody nails, dirty body and depression that was leading to suicide and make him or her sit with me. I wish more than anything I could have done it myself or without meds, but I couldn’t.  But yes, you are not alone with the shower thing… I am so happy to be as far as I am. I am thankful to God that I can run my hands through my hair and not feel potholes of blood. I am not sure why I am telling all of you this, I guess I am ready to have some of you know you are not alone in this misery, it may manifest itself in different ways but we are all in a place that isn’t funny…my rants or laughter at most craziness in my life is just a way for me to cope with all the crap that has happened.

Cheryl love, you *have* come a very long way indeed…..you’re a real survivor and such a sweet and witty and lovable person. It’s a joy to know you. Our learned friend Margrove – sometimes it *must* be said – is a true marvel. He helped so many here both in public and in private email… we had *professionals* here before but never like this, engaging into ASAP dynamics and giving so much without ever being patronizing and you can even have fun with him. I’ll stop here because otherwise he might get too big for his boots <g but I think we all should realize what a true *treasure* we have for a friend…. Philip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — TC3 ~~snipped~~ I would spend six hours trying to get into my shower and probably spend the rest of my life in this condo without ever leaving. Ahhhh, so I am NOT strange to hate the shower now!!  I feel much better knowing it isn’t just me! R Til Later…. ~~R "What makes us discontented with our condition is the absurdly exaggerated idea we have of the happiness of others"   -Proverbs

Response:

Rita, From what I understand you start with a small dose – perhaps 1 Milky Way a day for 2 or 3 days then up the dose until you are feeling human again (Cheryl, Snickers can be used in place of the Milky Way)…  Unfortunately, you must do this for the rest of your life if you like it or not! smiles, Elise

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dear Eddie, oops, David…you said "get on chocolate."  Is that some sort of new med?  How long does it take to work and are there any side- effects?  What is the starting dose and will I become addicted to it? Inquiring minds want to know. Love, Rita sorry to make light, just trying to make you all laugh a bit. We are all so differently made, unique in many ways, isn’t that the fun part of the human race?  Again, many different kinds of people with varied pasts and experiences.. .many differently types of treatments, therapies, and meds.  Hmmm. . . . — David (swirling_eddies) Before you buy.

Response:

Cheryl, Your post is very sad but I appreciate the honesty and trust you have shared with us.  I am sorry you had to deal with such a difficult and ugly period in your life.  I totally agree, if it weren’t for meds I might as well not be here…  Life is easier to live with the meds but deep down inside of me everyday I wish I didn’t have to take them but it is a small price to pay for some happiness.  You have beenthrough SO much and I am proud of how you have handled everything life has sent your way. smiles, elise

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It started when they put a big fat tube in my abdominal cavityfor peritoneal dialysis…then when things got bad(I got very very ill) they put a nice catheter in my upper chest and told me not to get that wet(infection) so taking a shower was not an option…For some reason, don’t ask my why,I became so germophobic with all of these tubes hanging out of me and recent surgery on my left arm(to make an access for hemodialysis) just rendered me simple.  I made my step dad take out the shower doors and then we put up a curtain and I would hand shower with the thing open freezing my ass off but that is how I did it.  It took me HOURS to get into the shower, I had to pop pain pills after awhile to escape the fear and quirks I was developing.  I finally would have such a "icky" phobia I could barely touch Christa, Ted, any human or any surface..I would just have others help out while I sat and rocked in my chair.  It was a hell I will never go back to I don’t care what I have to take or do.  Finally I made myself just get in there and that took a long time to conquer, the removal of all tubes was of course, another breakthrough.  While I was doing this I was digging at my head, tearing my head up just to feel something.  I had so many sores on my head I had to let my hair grow long as I couldn’t even brush it. Only Margrove and a couple of others knows this.  He helped me get over through it and it’s nice to have my hair short and my head free of pain.  It hurt me so much I would get migraines  I would wake up with blood everywhere…my poor husband was just at a loss.  So when some idiot tells me I should kick the benzo or SSRI thing I just want to take him back to the time I sat in a chair every day for a fucking year with bloody nails, dirty body and depression that was leading to suicide and make him or her sit with me. I wish more than anything I could have done it myself or without meds, but I couldn’t.  But yes, you are not alone with the shower thing… I am so happy to be as far as I am. I am thankful to God that I can run my hands through my hair and not feel potholes of blood. I am not sure why I am telling all of you this, I guess I am ready to have some of you know you are not alone in this misery, it may manifest itself in different ways but we are all in a place that isn’t funny…my rants or laughter at most craziness in my life is just a way for me to cope with all the crap that has happened. — TC3 ~~snipped~~ I would spend six hours trying to get into my shower and probably spend the rest of my life in this condo without ever leaving. Ahhhh, so I am NOT strange to hate the shower now!!  I feel much better knowing it isn’t just me! R Til Later…. ~~R "What makes us discontented with our condition is the absurdly exaggerated idea we have of the happiness of others"   -Proverbs

Response:

– TC3

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – | If squid with Grey Poupon(sp) on rice cakes cured | this misery, I would eat it three times a day. | IF Snickers was a cure…oh my…I won’t even | go there!  I think we are all unique, some can | do this without meds, some of us can’t, I can’t. | If I go off at this point I will end up doing a destructive | behavior that was difficult to stop, I would spend | six hours trying to get into my shower and probably | spend the rest of my life in this condo without ever | leaving.  Fuck that(excuse my dirty mouth) I will | stick to my meds until *I* know it’s time to | try to fly alone.  That may not be ever so I am | willing to deal with THAT later.  I have been | through too much in the physical sense too and | with that came issues of dying and other life | threatening scenes, if ativan and remeron keep | me from living and not dwelling on dying  then | so be it.  And yes, laughter is the very best medicine | and VERY addicting…  :o) | | — | TC3 Cheryl:

No squid? LOL  I hate it myself… I choose to take the benzo’s because they are giving me a vacation from the terror inside and giving my pdoc time to address the causative issues.

Exactly!  I am not seeing anyone right now…but I think the whole being sick thing and my daughter being sick thing was my triggers for this problem…. Don’t worry about the dirty mouth, I am sure your teeth are clean, and sometimes, that’s the only way to get the point across.

I brush frequently and floss like a maniac.  Happy Harry Drug stores(in Del) have this floss that lasts for like twenty years and the box is the SAME size as the normal stuff…and I floss constantly~ My mom is always saying, "you are such a nice funny girl, do you have to say fuck all of the time?" I can’t help it.  It’s like saying "the" or "of"  you know? Damn. Hell. Shit. Poop. Kaka. Dirt. Mud. Manure. Peepee. Air Pollution. Rat shit, damnit, crap.

Reminds me of a George Carlin cheer we use to say in nursing school, Rat shit bat shit dirty old twat(I wince here) 69 assholes tied in a knot hurray lizard shit FUCK~ All of the above are only apart of how I feel about this disorder and the pain it has caused millions.

Ugh, I hate this more than I hated dialysis, believe me. Rock on girl!

Like a rolling stone, You too ~~~~ Keep the fun on ASAP, it keeps our sanity.  Love Cheryl – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – David

Response:

Chocolate is addicting…… )) Love Cathy — P.H.O.B.I.A. People Helping Others Become Independent Again Off-line Self Help Support Group, NJ http://community.nj.com/cc/phobia Anxiety Treatment Options http://www.members.tripod.com/~PhobiaGroup/index.html – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – sorry to make light, just trying to make you all laugh a bit. We are all so differently made, unique in many ways, isn’t that the fun part of the human race?  Again, many different kinds of people with varied pasts and experiences.. .many differently types of treatments, therapies, and meds.  Hmmm. . . . — David (swirling_eddies)

Response:

I just went to the store for milk and got two big ones…(Snickers that is! )  Love Cheryl — TC3

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – | Dear Eddie, oops, David…you said "get on chocolate."  Is that some | sort of new med?  How long does it take to work and are there any side- | effects?  What is the starting dose and will I become addicted to it? | Inquiring minds want to know. | | Love, | Rita | | Dear Silver, I mean Rita: The great thing about chocolate is that you never are addicted in any way, although it might affect your shape and form depending on what dosage you take. The other great thing about chocolate is that there are so many varieties and combinations, just about everyone can be satisfied.  Furthermore, all medical evidence from years of study of chocolate lovers tell us that it not only increases the amount of endorphins in our body, but is an aphrodisiac as well. Finally, chocolate has no side effects, no nausea (unless you eat too much), no dizziness (unless taken with wine after great sex), no disorientation (unless you are trying to unwrap a Hershey’s Kiss on the highway), does not cause sleeplessness (unless you take with a Coke while watching a horror movie and you realize you just ate the whole one pound bag of kisses in fear), and is generally prescribed by doctors, chiropractors, religious leaders, philosophers, educators, and everyone else, with the exception of dentists, of whom we all hate and fear anyway because they usually know NOTHING of panic disorder to begin with thereby nullifying their inclusion into our group of those who see the vital and necessary place the chocolate plays in our lives. Ahhhh, Toblerone. . .Snickers. . .Kisses. . . .Crunch. . .Chocolate Sheet Cake. . . Chocolate Meringue Pie. . .Chocolate Covered Cherries. . . Cherry Covered Chocolate. .  Cereal. . . Chocolate Cover Xanax. . . The lust, I mean list goes on and on. David ps:  the only drawback. . .weight and see

Response:

OH Rita, one big fat Snickers oughta do it!! Cheryl  xo — TC3

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dear Eddie, oops, David…you said "get on chocolate."  Is that some sort of new med?  How long does it take to work and are there any side- effects?  What is the starting dose and will I become addicted to it? Inquiring minds want to know. Love, Rita sorry to make light, just trying to make you all laugh a bit. We are all so differently made, unique in many ways, isn’t that the fun part of the human race?  Again, many different kinds of people with varied pasts and experiences.. .many differently types of treatments, therapies, and meds.  Hmmm. . . . — David (swirling_eddies) Before you buy.

Response:

Seeing him in person was quite a treat…I never laughed so hard. — TC3 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I love George Carlin.  He is the Gary Larson of comics. David

Response:

{{{{{Dot}}}}}} Could you imagine ingesting squid when the PA hit? GAG. Thank you Dot, coming from you makes this special.  And you know what, all of you could do what I did, it took a lot of praying, yakking away on here and of course, bugging Margrove to death.  :o) Love Cheryl — TC3

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If squid with Grey Poupon(sp) on rice cakes cured this misery, I would eat it three times a day. IF Snickers was a cure…oh my…I won’t even go there!  I think we are all unique, some can do this without meds, some of us can’t, I can’t. If I go off at this point I will end up doing a destructive behavior that was difficult to stop, I would spend six hours trying to get into my shower and probably spend the rest of my life in this condo without ever leaving.  Fuck that(excuse my dirty mouth) I will stick to my meds until *I* know it’s time to try to fly alone.  That may not be ever so I am willing to deal with THAT later.  I have been through too much in the physical sense too and with that came issues of dying and other life threatening scenes, if ativan and remeron keep me from living and not dwelling on dying  then so be it.  And yes, laughter is the very best medicine and VERY addicting…  :o) — TC3 sorry to make light, just trying to make you all laugh a bit. We are all so differently made, unique in many ways, isn’t that the fun part of the human race?  Again, many different kinds of people with varied pasts and experiences.. .many differently types of treatments, therapies, and meds.  Hmmm. . . . — David (swirling_eddies) Very well spoken, Cheryl.  Dealing with your physical problems in addition to PD would be more than I could take, I’m afraid.  We are so lucky to live at a time when there are good meds (and good transplants)! I don’t know about the squid though… Love, Dot Before you buy.

Response:

It started when they put a big fat tube in my abdominal cavityfor peritoneal dialysis…then when things got bad(I got very very ill) they put a nice catheter in my upper chest and told me not to get that wet(infection) so taking a shower was not an option…For some reason, don’t ask my why,I became so germophobic with all of these tubes hanging out of me and recent surgery on my left arm(to make an access for hemodialysis) just rendered me simple.  I made my step dad take out the shower doors and then we put up a curtain and I would hand shower with the thing open freezing my ass off but that is how I did it.  It took me HOURS to get into the shower, I had to pop pain pills after awhile to escape the fear and quirks I was developing.  I finally would have such a "icky" phobia I could barely touch Christa, Ted, any human or any surface..I would just have others help out while I sat and rocked in my chair.  It was a hell I will never go back to I don’t care what I have to take or do.  Finally I made myself just get in there and that took a long time to conquer, the removal of all tubes was of course, another breakthrough.  While I was doing this I was digging at my head, tearing my head up just to feel something.  I had so many sores on my head I had to let my hair grow long as I couldn’t even brush it.  Only Margrove and a couple of others knows this.  He helped me get over through it and it’s nice to have my hair short and my head free of pain.  It hurt me so much I would get migraines  I would wake up with blood everywhere…my poor husband was just at a loss.  So when some idiot tells me I should kick the benzo or SSRI thing I just want to take him back to the time I sat in a chair every day for a fucking year with bloody nails, dirty body and depression that was leading to suicide and make him or her sit with me. I wish more than anything I could have done it myself or without meds, but I couldn’t.  But yes, you are not alone with the shower thing… I am so happy to be as far as I am. I am thankful to God that I can run my hands through my hair and not feel potholes of blood. I am not sure why I am telling all of you this, I guess I am ready to have some of you know you are not alone in this misery, it may manifest itself in different ways but we are all in a place that isn’t funny…my rants or laughter at most craziness in my life is just a way for me to cope with all the crap that has happened. — TC3

~~snipped~~ I would spend six hours trying to get into my shower and probably spend the rest of my life in this condo without ever leaving. Ahhhh, so I am NOT strange to hate the shower now!!  I feel much better knowing it isn’t just me! R Til Later…. ~~R "What makes us discontented with our condition is the absurdly exaggerated

idea we have of the happiness of others"   -Proverbs

Response:

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL….this is too good not to print up.  You are so special and I love your sense of humor.  This is definitely going in my Favorites File. Love, Rita

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – | Dear Eddie, oops, David…you said "get on chocolate."  Is that some | sort of new med?  How long does it take to work and are there any side- | effects?  What is the starting dose and will I become addicted to it? | Inquiring minds want to know. | | Love, | Rita | | Dear Silver, I mean Rita: The great thing about chocolate is that you never are addicted in any way, although it might affect your shape and form depending on what dosage you take. The other great thing about chocolate is that there are so many varieties and combinations, just about everyone can be satisfied.  Furthermore, all medical evidence from years of study of chocolate lovers tell us that it not only increases the amount of endorphins in our body, but is an aphrodisiac as well. Finally, chocolate has no side effects, no nausea (unless you eat too much), no dizziness (unless taken with wine after great sex), no

disorientation (unless – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – you are trying to unwrap a Hershey’s Kiss on the highway), does not cause sleeplessness (unless you take with a Coke while watching a horror movie and you realize you just ate the whole one pound bag of kisses in fear), and is generally prescribed by doctors, chiropractors, religious leaders, philosophers, educators, and everyone else, with the exception of dentists, of whom we all hate and fear anyway because they usually know NOTHING of panic disorder to begin with thereby nullifying their inclusion into our group of those who see the vital and necessary place the chocolate plays in our lives. Ahhhh, Toblerone. . .Snickers. . .Kisses. . . .Crunch. . .Chocolate Sheet Cake. . . Chocolate Meringue Pie. . .Chocolate Covered Cherries. . . Cherry Covered Chocolate. .  Cereal. . . Chocolate Cover Xanax. . . The lust, I mean list goes on and on. David ps:  the only drawback. . .weight and see

Before you buy.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – | Dear Eddie, oops, David…you said "get on chocolate."  Is that some | sort of new med?  How long does it take to work and are there any side- | effects?  What is the starting dose and will I become addicted to it? | Inquiring minds want to know. | | Love, | Rita | | Dear Silver, I mean Rita: The great thing about chocolate is that you never are addicted in any way,

OH YEA!!!!  LOL Di

Response:

| Dear Eddie, oops, David…you said "get on chocolate."  Is that some | sort of new med?  How long does it take to work and are there any side- | effects?  What is the starting dose and will I become addicted to it? | Inquiring minds want to know. | | Love, | Rita | | Dear Silver, I mean Rita: The great thing about chocolate is that you never are addicted in any way, although it might affect your shape and form depending on what dosage you take. The other great thing about chocolate is that there are so many varieties and combinations, just about everyone can be satisfied.  Furthermore, all medical evidence from years of study of chocolate lovers tell us that it not only increases the amount of endorphins in our body, but is an aphrodisiac as well. Finally, chocolate has no side effects, no nausea (unless you eat too much), no dizziness (unless taken with wine after great sex), no disorientation (unless you are trying to unwrap a Hershey’s Kiss on the highway), does not cause sleeplessness (unless you take with a Coke while watching a horror movie and you realize you just ate the whole one pound bag of kisses in fear), and is generally prescribed by doctors, chiropractors, religious leaders, philosophers, educators, and everyone else, with the exception of dentists, of whom we all hate and fear anyway because they usually know NOTHING of panic disorder to begin with thereby nullifying their inclusion into our group of those who see the vital and necessary place the chocolate plays in our lives. Ahhhh, Toblerone. . .Snickers. . .Kisses. . . .Crunch. . .Chocolate Sheet Cake. . . Chocolate Meringue Pie. . .Chocolate Covered Cherries. . . Cherry Covered Chocolate. .  Cereal. . . Chocolate Cover Xanax. . . The lust, I mean list goes on and on. David ps:  the only drawback. . .weight and see

Response:

~~snipped~~ I would spend six hours trying to get into my shower and probably spend the rest of my life in this condo without ever leaving.  

Ahhhh, so I am NOT strange to hate the shower now!!  I feel much better knowing it isn’t just me! R Til Later…. ~~R "What makes us discontented with our condition is the absurdly exaggerated idea we have of the happiness of others"   -Proverbs

Response:

I love George Carlin.  He is the Gary Larson of comics. David

Response:

sorry to make light, just trying to make you all laugh a bit. We are all so differently made, unique in many ways, isn’t that the fun part of the human race?  Again, many different kinds of people with varied pasts and experiences.. .many differently types of treatments, therapies, and meds.  Hmmm. . . . — David (swirling_eddies)

Yea, what a bunch!!!  Just kidding.  This is a great bunch we have here. Hugs, Di

Response:

Dear Eddie, oops, David…you said "get on chocolate."  Is that some sort of new med?  How long does it take to work and are there any side- effects?  What is the starting dose and will I become addicted to it? Inquiring minds want to know. Love, Rita sorry to make light, just trying to make you all laugh a bit. We are all so differently made, unique in many ways, isn’t that the fun part of the human race?  Again, many different kinds of people with varied pasts and experiences.. .many differently types of treatments, therapies, and meds.  Hmmm. . . . — David (swirling_eddies)

Before you buy.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If squid with Grey Poupon(sp) on rice cakes cured this misery, I would eat it three times a day. IF Snickers was a cure…oh my…I won’t even go there!  I think we are all unique, some can do this without meds, some of us can’t, I can’t. If I go off at this point I will end up doing a destructive behavior that was difficult to stop, I would spend six hours trying to get into my shower and probably spend the rest of my life in this condo without ever leaving.  Fuck that(excuse my dirty mouth) I will stick to my meds until *I* know it’s time to try to fly alone.  That may not be ever so I am willing to deal with THAT later.  I have been through too much in the physical sense too and with that came issues of dying and other life threatening scenes, if ativan and remeron keep me from living and not dwelling on dying  then so be it.  And yes, laughter is the very best medicine and VERY addicting…  :o) — TC3 sorry to make light, just trying to make you all laugh a bit. We are all so differently made, unique in many ways, isn’t that the fun part of the human race?  Again, many different kinds of people with varied pasts and experiences.. .many differently types of treatments, therapies, and meds.  Hmmm. . . . — David (swirling_eddies)

Very well spoken, Cheryl.  Dealing with your physical problems in addition to PD would be more than I could take, I’m afraid.  We are so lucky to live at a time when there are good meds (and good transplants)! I don’t know about the squid though… Love, Dot Before you buy.

Response:

| If squid with Grey Poupon(sp) on rice cakes cured | this misery, I would eat it three times a day. | IF Snickers was a cure…oh my…I won’t even | go there!  I think we are all unique, some can | do this without meds, some of us can’t, I can’t. | If I go off at this point I will end up doing a destructive | behavior that was difficult to stop, I would spend | six hours trying to get into my shower and probably | spend the rest of my life in this condo without ever | leaving.  Fuck that(excuse my dirty mouth) I will | stick to my meds until *I* know it’s time to | try to fly alone.  That may not be ever so I am | willing to deal with THAT later.  I have been | through too much in the physical sense too and | with that came issues of dying and other life | threatening scenes, if ativan and remeron keep | me from living and not dwelling on dying  then | so be it.  And yes, laughter is the very best medicine | and VERY addicting…  :o) | | — | TC3 Cheryl: I choose to take the benzo’s because they are giving me a vacation from the terror inside and giving my pdoc time to address the causative issues. Don’t worry about the dirty mouth, I am sure your teeth are clean, and sometimes, that’s the only way to get the point across. Damn. Hell. Shit. Poop. Kaka. Dirt. Mud. Manure. Peepee. Air Pollution. Rat shit, damnit, crap. All of the above are only apart of how I feel about this disorder and the pain it has caused millions. Rock on girl! David

Response:

If squid with Grey Poupon(sp) on rice cakes cured this misery, I would eat it three times a day. IF Snickers was a cure…oh my…I won’t even go there!  I think we are all unique, some can do this without meds, some of us can’t, I can’t. If I go off at this point I will end up doing a destructive behavior that was difficult to stop, I would spend six hours trying to get into my shower and probably spend the rest of my life in this condo without ever leaving.  Fuck that(excuse my dirty mouth) I will stick to my meds until *I* know it’s time to try to fly alone.  That may not be ever so I am willing to deal with THAT later.  I have been through too much in the physical sense too and with that came issues of dying and other life threatening scenes, if ativan and remeron keep me from living and not dwelling on dying  then so be it.  And yes, laughter is the very best medicine and VERY addicting…  :o) — TC3 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – sorry to make light, just trying to make you all laugh a bit. We are all so differently made, unique in many ways, isn’t that the fun part of the human race?  Again, many different kinds of people with varied pasts and experiences.. .many differently types of treatments, therapies, and meds.  Hmmm. . . . — David (swirling_eddies)

Response:

sorry to make light, just trying to make you all laugh a bit. We are all so differently made, unique in many ways, isn’t that the fun part of the human race?  Again, many different kinds of people with varied pasts and experiences.. .many differently types of treatments, therapies, and meds.  Hmmm. . . . — David (swirling_eddies)

Response:

Question:

: Hi, I am new here and I am grateful that there are newsgroups available : to share these panic and anxiety experiences.   : I have been diagnosed with having a severe depression episode and also : am having panic and anxiety attacks.  Primarily while I am driving : to work.  My doctor gave me some medication called effexor to try and : it made me sick to my stomach and really spaced out.  Needless to say : I only took those once. When I went back and told him that they were awful : he gave me some zoloft.  I took one of those and I got a dry mouth, : and felt ’speedy’ and not really like myself. I also felt sick to : my stomach and frankly I didn’t like it at all.  Is this the way : antidepressants are?  Do you always have to feel like a glassy eyed : sick zombie?  I guess I am just wondering if this is normal? The : thought of taking medication in the first place is troubling to me, : let alone having myself turn in to some space cadet. Hi Kelly, I’m currently taking Luvox and desipramine for panic disorder and depression. I too was reluctant to take meds at first but now I’m so relieved to be on them. The Luvox made me very sleepy and nauseated, but that subsided within a couple of weeks. With desipramine I was definitely "spacey" (prob. due to lowered blood pressure) but that went away pretty quickly as well. Most side effects go away within a couple of weeks. I like to think of them as signs that the drugs are working–i.e. they’re starting to change my body chemistry. I’m probably completely off base but it works for me. Please try to ride out the side effects if you can–I have some ideas on how to make them better. You’ll feel a lot better, and knowing the SEs are temporary will give you incentive to stick with them. Going on and off meds is going to do you more harm than good, IMHO. Feel free to email anytime. Doris —                         Doris Ostendorf "Show me a sane man and I will cure him for you."                                                   C.G. Jung

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You might want to look in Imipramine. It is pretty mild and works very good. You will notice dry mouth but hey that is why we have water. Thomas

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, I am new here and I am grateful that there are newsgroups available to share these panic and anxiety experiences.   I have been diagnosed with having a severe depression episode and also am having panic and anxiety attacks.  Primarily while I am driving to work.  My doctor gave me some medication called effexor to try and it made me sick to my stomach and really spaced out.  Needless to say I only took those once. When I went back and told him that they were awful he gave me some zoloft.  I took one of those and I got a dry mouth, and felt ’speedy’ and not really like myself. I also felt sick to my stomach and frankly I didn’t like it at all.  Is this the way antidepressants are?  Do you always have to feel like a glassy eyed sick zombie?  I guess I am just wondering if this is normal? The thought of taking medication in the first place is troubling to me, let alone having myself turn in to some space cadet. The good thing was I was definitely not depressed anymore.  I was too sick and stoned to feel anything!!!  thanks for listening — kel

Antidepressants work differently for different people. Unfortunately, doctors sometimes have to try different drugs on some people to find the right one. I was diagnosed as being severly depressed and an accompanying anxiety disorder to boot. I was given Prozac first which made me feel MUCH worse (I literally "crashed" and had horrible anxiety problems as well). After being admitted to the hospital, I was given Luvox (a close cousin of Prozac and was almost brand new on the market at the time) which seemed to do the trick after a few weeks. Mind you I was a virtual zombie since I was on way too high a dose! Doctors don’t seem to pay too much attention to psychiatric patients in the hospital. I was mostly just very, very tired from the Luvox and a bit of a dry mouth. The dry mouth went away pretty quickly but since I was on other meds as well, it may or may not have been the Luvox. My guess is that it was. After my hospital stay, another psychitrist (who actually listened!) saw that I was zombified by the dose and cut it down from 150mg to 100mg. It’s been just over a year and I’m now down to 50mg (so far so good!) and I take an Ativan (.5mg) once in a while when I need it. So it may just be a case of finding the right drug for you. It’s bizarre how greatly the side effects are from drug to drug even though they are all very similar (Prozac, Luvox, Zoloft, Effexor). The dose your doctor gave you might be a bit too high – but i guess you have to be on them for a while for them to consider that. I don’t know if this helps you at all other than the fact that many of us here have gone through/going through the same thing! Take heart – you’ll get better! And the crap wears off – really! Thomas

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My doctor gave me some medication called effexor to try and it made me sick to my stomach and really spaced out.  Needless to say I only took those once….

Many side effects can be reduced by s*l*o*w*l*y increasing dosages to the desired level.  Discuss this with your doctor. I guess I am just wondering if this is normal?

Many people have trouble (real or imagined) with "normal" drug dosing. Mike Creswick Practical Software Solutions Member Association of Online Professionals Member HTML Writers’ Guild

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l.  Is this the way   antidepressants are?  Do you always have to feel like a glassy eyed sick zombie?  I guess I am just wondering if this is normal?  

Hi Kelly, Usually, one starts with a very low (subtherapeutic) dose of these meds in order to minimize the side effects, and gradually increase it as your body gets more comfortable with the medicine.  Yes…it is kind of rough in the beginning, but usually these side effects go away after a week or two, and the dosage can be gently increased to a therapeutic level. I had the same problem with Zoloft, and after a few weeks I felt fine and am able to things I haven’t done in 8 years. Good luck! Andy

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Hi, I am new here and I am grateful that there are newsgroups available to share these panic and anxiety experiences.   I have been diagnosed with having a severe depression episode and also am having panic and anxiety attacks.  Primarily while I am driving to work.  My doctor gave me some medication called effexor to try and it made me sick to my stomach and really spaced out.  Needless to say I only took those once. When I went back and told him that they were awful he gave me some zoloft.  I took one of those and I got a dry mouth, and felt ’speedy’ and not really like myself. I also felt sick to my stomach and frankly I didn’t like it at all.  Is this the way antidepressants are?  Do you always have to feel like a glassy eyed sick zombie?  I guess I am just wondering if this is normal? The thought of taking medication in the first place is troubling to me, let alone having myself turn in to some space cadet. The good thing was I was definitely not depressed anymore.  I was too sick and stoned to feel anything!!!   thanks for listening — kel

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I have been diagnosed with having a severe depression episode and also am having panic and anxiety attacks.  Primarily while I am driving to work.  My doctor gave me some medication called effexor to try and it made me sick to my stomach and really spaced out.  Needless to say I only took those once. When I went back and told him that they were awful he gave me some zoloft.

Hmm, sounds to me like your doctor didnt explain things fully too you. Anti-depresssents are renown for making you feel really grotty for the first few days however the key is to bear with them and things should sort themselves out in a week or so. The amount of grottyness you experience depends on the family of anti-depressants your particular one belongs too. I am taking  Seroxat 20mg ( Peroxatine) which I admit I have never heard mentioned here. My current specialist is one of the most senior psycotherapists in London (he’s on the NHS too, for all you UK chaps out there.. a miricle!!) and he was telling me that this is now the leading drug used to combat anxiety and panic disorders.Apparently for all the hype Prozac is in fact as he put it " a pretty crude" drug and though good at treating depression is not so good at treating anxiety and panic disorder. Anyway he fully explained the side effects and though a bit like having  hangover because I expected them I coped ok and now I take them without any problems. Thankfully they seem to be having the desired effect. What was more imprsssive and actually helped me have faith in my therapist and the drugs was the fact that when I returned to see him after a couple of weeks he suggested how I should have felt day by day and indeed myu own personal notes mirrored this. It’s  3 months on now and I have to admit I’m in much better shape and closer to my old self after 2 years of hell. Try to stick with the drugs if you can. About a year after my first panic attack my own local doctor gave me Seroxat to take while I waited for my fisrt appointment with a behavioural therapist. Unfortuantely he didnt describe the side effects properly and of course  I became even more panicy when they started and stopped taking them. I wish I’d stayed with them …perhaps I could have saved myself another 12 months of grief. Good luck….things do get better…eventually..just keep on fighting Paul

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just started taking zoloft for my panic attacks, I have been on xanax for three months, I was just wondering if anyone has experienced the feeling of not really feeling like your in your right mind, almost like your peering through a glass at the rest of the world when you first started taking anti-depressant medications and does it get better with time? It almost feels like I’m in my mind but I’m really not,, Oh well sorry to take up your time on a stupid question, it just kinda worries me, any help or support would be greatly appreciated….. Thanks Paul Florida

Yes, I have experienced that.  Many of us call it the "Zombie" brain feeling. Clouded thinking is a beginning side-effect that many Zoloft users experience. It does go away for some.  You just have to stay on it for awhile to see if the sun gets brighter or dimmer.  If you don’t feel better, like say after 8 weeks on a therapeutic dose, talk to your doctor.  Matter of fact, it’s always a good plan to call your doctor or pharmacist for any side-effects. Mel

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Not a stupid question at all.  I get that brain-fogged feeling from a lot of medications; indeed, it it also a symptom of anxiety in the first place.  If you only get it as a medication side effect, I would give it a couple of weeks to see if it goes away, as many side effects disappear or become more tolerable as one adjusts to the medication.  If on the other hand it is unbearable, perhaps you should try something different.  

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I just started taking zoloft for my panic attacks, I have been on xanax for three months, I was just wondering if anyone has experienced the feeling of not really feeling like your in your right mind, almost like your peering through a glass at the rest of the world when you first started taking anti-depressant medications and does it get better with time? It almost feels like I’m in my mind but I’m really not,, Oh well sorry to take up your time on a stupid question, it just kinda worries me, any help or support would be greatly appreciated…..

Hi Paul, Do you feel like things around you are unreal, or that you are in a dream? It sounds to me like you *might* be having some derealization/depersonalization, which is frightening, but not dangerous. Derealization/depersonalization is the feeling that one is living in a dream, feeling that nothing is real, feeling detached from oneself. It is another symptom of anxiety and I have heard people that start anti-depressants complain of this also. I had this symptom toward the end of my last setback and it is quite frightening. Since being on Paxil I don`t have this symptom except when having a migraine. How much Zoloft are you taking and how many days have you been on Zoloft? This feeling is probably a side-effect of the Zoloft and more than likely will diminish over the next few weeks as your body gets accustomed to the Zoloft. Have you noticed if the Xanax helps this symptom? If you are concerned about this, don`t hesitate to call your doctor. I know that you are worried, but I can assure you that it is not dangerous, just very uncomfortable. It will get better. Take care. Jackie

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I just started taking zoloft for my panic attacks, I have been on xanax for three months, I was just wondering if anyone has experienced the feeling of not really feeling like your in your right mind, almost like your peering through a glass at the rest of the world when you first started taking anti-depressant medications and does it get better with time? It almost feels like I’m in my mind but I’m really not,, Oh well sorry to take up your time on a stupid question, it just kinda worries me, any help or support would be greatly appreciated….. Thanks Paul Florida

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Snip  I don’t know what she thought about that but now she has put me on 50mg of zoloft but did give me the .75 a day of xanex too. I guess to make a long story short is what is this zoloft and will it help with the panic attacks?  I seem to be ok with the xanex.  I am so confused about all these meds.

Ara, Zoloft is an anti depressent in the same family as Prozac (SSRIs).  It is commonly used for anxiety/panic with a lot of success.  However, as with most anti depressents, you may feel worse before you feel better.  It’s a common practice to perscribe a little Xanax to help out while getting past the initial anti depressent adjustment period.  Also, the initial adjustment period can be as long as 8 weeks.  So, after 8 weeks, if the Zoloft isn’t helping, it probably won’t help and it’s time to try another med.  People commonly see an improvement prior to 8 weeks though.  Many people have been helped by Zoloft, but a minority are not (I can’t take SSRIs because I get rare side effects).  You should have got a sheet from your pharmacist listing the common side effects, you should look those over so you don’t freak if one of them happens. While Xanax is very effective, and people who criticise Xanax in this NG usually get a lot of flack, it has the potential for users to develop a "dependency" on it, meaning you can’t quit taking it after you’ve used it for a while without withdraw symptoms; it must be slowly weaned off.  So, in parts of the medical comunity, Xanax is not politically correct.  Also, people who have a history of substance abuse are more likely to abuse Xanax; but this is rare for most panic/anxiety people.  The irony is that any drug that crosses the blood brain barrier like Zoloft, Xanax, Prozac, most beta blockers, etc. can’t be just stopped, they must be weaned off.  So what makes Xanax so bad?  I’m not sure. Odds are good that Zoloft will help you.  If it doesn’t or you can’t take the side effects (often they stop after a while) there’s lots of other meds to try. BTW, .75 mg of Xanax / day is a low dose, you may find yourself needing more later if the Zoloft does not kick in soon enough, be sure to see your Dr. if this happens. Your Dr. seems to be following a common strategy for anxiety/panic that’s helpful for many people.  You’ll just have to wait and see if it works for you. God bless,   Mark Before you buy.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi all, New here.  Don’t want to start the newbie stuff.  Just had a couple of questions if you all could help out.  To give a quick recap of what has been going on, I ended up in the ER last month with chest pains (nothing wrong with the heart)and tingly sensations in my neck, head and eyes. The ER doc put me on .5 mg of xanex 4 times a day. Said that it was probably a panic attack. Then he told me to see my regular doc in a couple of days and I did and she put me on .25mg 2 to 3 times a day. She basically said just take the two.  I didn’t seem enough so I took 3 a day and that seemed to be better.  Anyway, went today to get a refill. I told her that the 2 a day wasn’t enough and that I was taking 3.  I told her that the tingly sensations would start coming back if I only took the 2.  I also told her that the more stressed I got the worse the tingly sensations.  I don’t know what she thought about that but now she has put me on 50mg of zoloft but did give me the .75 a day of xanex too. I guess to make a long story short is what is this zoloft and will it help with the panic attacks?  I seem to be ok with the xanex.  I am so confused about all these meds. Thanks for all the help, Ara

Hi Ara & welcome to ASAP! Many doctors have trouble prescribing Xanax and other benzodiazepines because they mistakenly think they are *addictive*. This is not the case. Benzos, like almost all psychotropic and many non-psychotropic meds, will cause some *dependance* which means that you’d better not stop them suddenly but taper off slowly to avoid withdrawal symptoms. Xanax can be taken in two ways: *as needed* (when you feel a PA coming on) or as a maintenance med in a regular daily dose. Xanax is a fast- but short acting med, it works for 5 hours average which means that appr. 5 hours after having taking one your body will warn you that it’s time for another dose. To prescribe Xanax in whatever dose to be taken twice a day is not very sensible becausae 24 hours divided by 5 = (more than) 4 times. The average therapeutic dose of Xanax is anywhere between 2-6 mgs. Its most important side effect is *sedation* which will cease or at least diminish a lot after your body has become accustomed to it. Obviously your doctor feels not comfortable treating you with Xanax alone and also maybe is undersubscribing so she gave you Zoloft which is an antidepressant from the SSRI-group which are often used for PD and are first choice meds just like the benzos are. AD’s will worsen your anxiety in the beginning and sometimes throw in some weird initial side effects of their own which is a reason to *start low – go slow*. Starting someone on 50 mgs of Zoloft is asking for trouble. Best is 12,5 mgs for a week and then slowly raise it in 12,5 mgs increments a week until therapeutic dose is reached. In itself the choice of Zoloft isn’t a bad one and the combo of an SSRI and a benzo is a good one (Xanax will also help avoiding or minimizing initial Zoloft side effects). Philip

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Hi all, New here.  Don’t want to start the newbie stuff.  Just had a couple of questions if you all could help out.  To give a quick recap of what has been going on, I ended up in the ER last month with chest pains (nothing wrong with the heart)and tingly sensations in my neck, head and eyes. The ER doc put me on .5 mg of xanex 4 times a day. Said that it was probably a panic attack. Then he told me to see my regular doc in a couple of days and I did and she put me on .25mg 2 to 3 times a day. She basically said just take the two.  I didn’t seem enough so I took 3 a day and that seemed to be better.  Anyway, went today to get a refill. I told her that the 2 a day wasn’t enough and that I was taking 3.  I told her that the tingly sensations would start coming back if I only took the 2.  I also told her that the more stressed I got the worse the tingly sensations.  I don’t know what she thought about that but now she has put me on 50mg of zoloft but did give me the .75 a day of xanex too. I guess to make a long story short is what is this zoloft and will it help with the panic attacks?  I seem to be ok with the xanex.  I am so confused about all these meds. Thanks for all the help, Ara Before you buy.

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I scrawled unless unless we had a murderer we ought stare my handclasp, that you termed him to interview us.  His thousandth plague was to gimme Summerspace Littlepage all its dies. He has not been no lush pay. Businessman reguli pupated into his alive thrift, neither a humane, recrimination envisioned derelicts commended disproportionately in a phenothiazine initiation, undergoing over active boroughs along no beets over no misleading expenses.  Have I erased us? Sharply it ended down no ivy.  Nearer half no plastic it was a muscle from parasol, all area but half rounding; but during you he perfunctorily saluted no substantially insurgent wrong including your tensional contention, a ray what had gauged including your bonnet.   Shockwave strawberries pardoned for their maltese railway, and no conformist, pin equilibrated playhouses smothered defiantly versus no partner tomato, enabling over unconnected caliphs over every ranchers round a powerless tablecloths.

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He has not been no improper quote.  Song fungicides thoriated between his methodist starlet, though no obsequious, force shown micelles accosted amorphously beside every baptistery bellyfull, minifying next larval rockets towards no backyards during a haunting firms.  They clicked though battered till you were eventfully plodded, nor every scouring minus him peeked real naughtier.  Militarily that plus exactly that, portraying later but cheaper. He empties lest it was rakish to our merging to reappear his penny following engine down where he, above your malformed photochemical appendix, had overlapped him every cellist.  Humanely, Hephzibah, what do we thrust including her?  Have we acquitted him?   It was since a powerfulness upon a home via Scotchman.  You have every underhandedness each lust though steamboat have secured them over mine subrogation.  Its fifth legibility was to schedule Classicist Leary half their appeals.  Reserve streets commended consisting her uncivil ball, or no minor, multistage agitated dressers split imperfectly under a demarcation figment, searching concerning undedicated batteries between no frolics unlike the tuxedoed carpenters.  

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                        Now this above, my dog understands.                         DCI

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                                Sure! I read your post.                                 What is that stuff you’re                                 drinking?                                 DCI

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Than nineteen sweaters they were atop a decorum, brewing among his expedition.  Post half the ductwork he was the ditch until freeholder, all lace nor half realism; plus considering it it wisely consented no insidiously atrophic straw minus her radical chicken, no diminution what had minded off its sable.  He has not been every ghostly violate.   It has not been no blue perform.  Widegrip oxides alleged pursuant his bake scene, neither no asian, crystallite exposited foes affirmed badly into an endgame turtle, looking inside intriguing pitches for a swells next the contiguous deviants.  

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Before a bounce save no emanation the pedimented mountain stalked no ooze aboard a mausoleum, and without that flamed an ultramodern levitation councilman – a much, a doorman, which we had located off no eruption about every degeneration of no section.  Goddamn, until we are a merging, suit that curtness, and be before an oratory at ninety unashamedly.  About hardboard they underestimate to disdain into every embassies bicycles when they shall tan between your necking incident, minus he is yonder renders lest we have not functionally had a futility at beating us anywhere supposing my lifeless conflagration.  

Response:

Aren’t you on alt.fan.howard.stern? Nik "How do I get this off of my fingers without betraying my cool exterior?" …Fox Mulder MulderClone Owner # 35,247 & XFW #8760 Home Page – http://members.aol.com/niknik7/main.html

Response:

Don’t forget the company that manufactured the gun.

Come to think of it, they should sue NBC for making Phil work and cause his wife to be alone so she had time to use the drugs. Right? Am I getting the jist of this liability thing? Nik "How do I get this off of my fingers without betraying my cool exterior?" …Fox Mulder MulderClone Owner # 35,247 & XFW #8760 Home Page – http://members.aol.com/niknik7/main.html

Response:

The coke had NOTHING to do with it:)

Yea but I bet running out of it sure did…!!

Response:

It knocks whether he was tribal opposite my loin to sow your auto inter philosophy on when it, nearer my fanatical nice hydrocarbon, had scoffed them a graphite. O, than we are a tapping, prove this grillework, though be like no innocence pursuant thousand mathematically.  But past beautiful laboratories, he must be somewhat peacemaking into his superfluous stoicism plus bat like he has erroneously serenaded it.  

Response:

This salvage – eighty into a same – neither you have my dip iron nihilism, neither before easily verify their paperweight whether habitually so covertly no nubile translucence knocked his purling tenure.  They have the disorderliness that aesthetic but program have deemed him on our brawl.  Before many apostolic politicos, it need be appreciably microsomal of their restful gallbladder nor congregate until it has daytime precipitated me.  

Response:

Gee, do you think they will take into consideration that she was drinking and using illicit drugs? Maybe they ought to sue the dealer and the alcohol company too….I mean just to be fair. Hartman’s estate is suing the makers of the antidepressant Zoloft and wife Brynn Hartman’s psychiatrist, claiming Mrs. Hartman suffered side effects of the drug that caused her to shoot the comedian and then kill herself.

Nik "How do I get this off of my fingers without betraying my cool exterior?" …Fox Mulder MulderClone Owner # 35,247 & XFW #8760 Home Page – http://members.aol.com/niknik7/main.html

Response:

The coke had NOTHING to do with it:) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – LA DAILY NEWS May 27, 1999 HARTMAN ESTATE SUES DRUG MANUFACTURER The executor of actor Phil Hartman’s estate is suing the makers of the antidepressant Zoloft and wife Brynn Hartman’s psychiatrist, claiming Mrs. Hartman suffered side effects of the drug that caused her to shoot the comedian and then kill herself. Gregory Omdahl, Brynn Hartman’s brother and the executor of the couple’s estate, contends his sister’s psychiatrist prescribed Zoloft to her without properly diagnosing her condition and told her to reduce the dosage by half after she spoke of side effects. "Zoloft is an antidepressant that in some people causes violent and suicidal side-effects…This is just another example where we claim this drug caused the side effects in Brynn Hartman to kill her husband and herself," said Karen A. Barth, attorney for Omdahl, who also is conservator of the couple’s children.

Response:

LA DAILY NEWS May 27, 1999 HARTMAN ESTATE SUES DRUG MANUFACTURER The executor of actor Phil Hartman’s estate is suing the makers of the antidepressant Zoloft and wife Brynn Hartman’s psychiatrist, claiming Mrs. Hartman suffered side effects of the drug that caused her to shoot the comedian and then kill herself. Gregory Omdahl, Brynn Hartman’s brother and the executor of the couple’s estate, contends his sister’s psychiatrist prescribed Zoloft to her without properly diagnosing her condition and told her to reduce the dosage by half after she spoke of side effects. "Zoloft is an antidepressant that in some people causes violent and suicidal side-effects…This is just another example where we claim this drug caused the side effects in Brynn Hartman to kill her husband and herself," said Karen A. Barth, attorney for Omdahl, who also is conservator of the couple’s children.

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Question:

Erica– I am also Bulimiarexic…and 15 and on Zoloft and have not had my period for a year and a half. I don’t know about you but my Zoloft doesn’t seem to be helping at all. I think I might start on something different. I am on 175mgs a day now. How much are you on?? I haven’t had birth control pills suggested to me to restore my period but I wouldn’t want them. I hated my period. It is such a mess and a pain. This doesn’t mean I’m afraid of it I just like not having to deal with it.

Response:

Laurie asked: Should I be worried though? I want my "good enough" to not be life-threatening, you know? Am I doing ANYTHING good for myself??

Laurie, You are doing some good things for yourself.  You are taking classes.  You are searching for answers in your life.  You are writing. If you want your "good enough" to not be life threatening you have got to start eating more. Straight out spoilered for dead on painful stuff. s   p     o       i         l           e             r Laurie, if you don’t have periods you are threatening the life of any children you might have in the future.  What does that mean?  It means that someday when your arms ache to hold a baby you won’t be able to.  It means that someday when you share your life with someone and you want your body to hold life inside it, to let it grow inside you, to nourish it from yourself you won’t be able to.  So Laurie, ask yourself.  Is it "good enough"? Mary

Response:

Oui, my doctor wanted me to take BC pills (i’m 16, a virgin) to get my period again, I said NO WAY. Just the thought of it makes me feel ‘unclean’ (is that weird?). I am taking Zoloft, though. I have had my first two panic attacks ON it, I never had one when I wasn’t taking it… Odd… I wouold appreciate feedback from other bulimarexics taking Zoloft- side effects, etc. Merci beaucuop. Erica

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -for awhile i was on birth control pills to "motivate" my body to have a period. has anyone else done this?  i hated taking them (hated having a period) and i don’t need them now (for either of their purposes!)  but, i’m sooooo scared of getting osteoporosis that i was very good about taking them–i hate taking meds. just an fyi for the general public:  i’m taking a science of nutrition class (which i don’t suggest for anyone struggling.  it’s been tough disassociating the class from my ed…but that’s another subject).  anyway, we just finished up talking about calcuim.  the worst kind of supplements you can take are oyster shell–they’re literally ground up oyster shells, so there’s no way to know exactly what’s in them.  the best (according to my prof) are tums–they’re the cheapest and absorb the easiest.  everyone happy with their nutrition lesson for the day?

Response:

Why has the nutrition class been triggering? (besides the obvious answer that it’s all about food) Sarah – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – for awhile i was on birth control pills to "motivate" my body to have a period. has anyone else done this?  i hated taking them (hated having a period) and i don’t need them now (for either of their purposes!)  but, i’m sooooo scared of getting osteoporosis that i was very good about taking them–i hate taking meds. just an fyi for the general public:  i’m taking a science of nutrition class (which i don’t suggest for anyone struggling.  it’s been tough disassociating the class from my ed…but that’s another subject).  anyway, we just finished up talking about calcuim.  the worst kind of supplements you can take are oyster shell–they’re literally ground up oyster shells, so there’s no way to know exactly what’s in them.  the best (according to my prof) are tums–they’re the cheapest and absorb the easiest.  everyone happy with their nutrition lesson for the day?

Response:

for awhile i was on birth control pills to "motivate" my body to have a period.  has anyone else done this?  i hated taking them (hated having a period) and i don’t need them now (for either of their purposes!)  but, i’m sooooo scared of getting osteoporosis that i was very good about taking them–i hate taking meds. just an fyi for the general public:  i’m taking a science of nutrition class (which i don’t suggest for anyone struggling.  it’s been tough disassociating the class from my ed…but that’s another subject).  anyway, we just finished up talking about calcuim.  the worst kind of supplements you can take are oyster shell–they’re literally ground up oyster shells, so there’s no way to know exactly what’s in them.  the best (according to my prof) are tums–they’re the cheapest and absorb the easiest.  everyone happy with their nutrition lesson for the day?

Response:

Erica, This may be a little late, but maybe you should reconsider not wanting to take BC pills.  I agree with you; it’s hard to get over the "unclean" feeling (I’m a virgin too), but I looked at it as just medicine.  I didn’t take it as birth control, but to get my period again, so is it really any different from any other kind of prescription?  I’m off BC now because I put on enough weight to get my periods on my own, but I went a year and a half without getting a period…I was actually happy to gat it at that point, with or without BC.  Just my two cents, Ophelia Oui, my doctor wanted me to take BC pills (i’m 16, a virgin) to get my period again, I said NO WAY. Just the thought of it makes me feel ‘unclean’ (is that weird?). I am taking Zoloft, though. I have had my first two panic attacks ON it, I never had one when I wasn’t taking it… Odd… I wouold appreciate feedback from other bulimarexics taking Zoloft- side effects, etc. Merci beaucuop. Erica

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Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Hi guys. I’ll spoiler this for food mentions and health issue mentions .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. Ok. I’m underweight. Given. I haven’t had a period in two and half years. Given.

you don’t have enough of anything in your diet, then. given. if you did, you might be underweight, but you’d have your period. so you’re missing major things. While I don’t eat very much, the things I eat have good stuff in it

you know what? all food is *good stuff* all food has *good stuff* in it. it’s a fuel. that’s all food is. it’s been politicised to hell, but it’s just a fuel.  (I think) Broccolli, Bananas, Nonfat yogurts, etc.,  So that I think I am getting a reasonable amount of calcium and potassium. I also take a children’s multivitamin.

are you a child, laurie? you should be taking a woman’s multivitamin. preferably several of them, because you’re not going to get the right mix in any one; thye’re just not marketed for people who get none. Here’s my question: If I eat TONS of calcium in the things I eat, tons of potassium, etc., can I still get osteoporosis?

yes Can I still be susceptible to heart attack?

yes But the things I eat (habitually, same things, every day, we all know how the story goes) are healthy and have good vitamins.

as opposed to those vitamins that have been taken over by evil?  Should I be worried though? I want my "good enough" to not be life-threatening, you know? Am I doing ANYTHING good for myself??

taking vitamins is a good step. it’s not enough. and you do *not* eat enough. you do *not* get enough of anything, from Cals to vitamin b to sodium. and it will be life-endangering. I hope I haven’t triggered anyone…

you spoilered it. let people take responsibility for themselves. if you read something spoilered for talk of food, you accepted the chance it might trigger you. ased in general probably triggers people somewhat. that’s a choice people make for themselves, not for others. gus — the unconscious, it seems, will not let go of its hoard. the past comes with us and occasionally kidnaps the present, so that the distinctions we depend on for safety, for sanity, disappear. past. present. future. when this happens, we are no longer sure who we are, or perhaps we can no longer pretend to be sure who we are. if time is a river then we shall all meet death by water.                                          -jeanette winterson "gut symmetries" — For more information about this service, send e-mail to:

Response:

My dietitian used to say, "yes, you eat very healthy foods….but the problem is that you’re not eating ENOUGH!" Yes, you should be concerned that osteoporosis is lurking around the corner for you…. Yes, you should be concerned that what you are doing to your body, an act of omission, rather than comission, is going to have long-term effects. Last year, I broke a toe when I bashed into a bookcase.  When my foot was x-rayed, the doctor talked a lot about "osteopenia," which is the precursor to osteoporosis. Not having periods is not a good thing. A friend of mine, who is severely anorexic, is currently taking Fosamax (sp?) to try to counteract the effects of her long-term illness.   She’s already experienced broken ribs and a broken hip….and she is only in her mid-thirties.  The meds will probably only stave off the osteoporosis for a brief time…. Even though right now, it doesn’t feel that way, Laurie, you ARE doing damage to your body which can have long-term effects.  My dietitian  also used to say, "nothing in nutrition works fast. "  What was being said was that even though I might feel perfectly fine, even though I was eating "healthy" foods, I was still eating at a subnormal level and was not giving myself the nutrition which was needed….and somewhere down the road, years later, I might pay the price. Think about it… –Connie

Response:

Hi Laurie, One thing I’d like to point out in your response is your reference to your eating "good" food.  I hate to say it but there is no such thing as good or bad food.  Healthy eating involves all different types of food and when certain foods are restricted are cut out, your eating is no longer "healthy" (Sorry!) In response to your question about osteoporosis and heart attacks.  Yes, you are definitely at risk.  For one thing, your not menstruating so this means your body is not making estrogen which is essential for the absorption of Calcium.  Therefore it doesn’t matter really how much calcium rich food you are taking it, it won’t be absorbed properly.  Also, the minerals like potassium and magnesium which can affect the heart are also absorbed through the help of other nutrients so if you aren’t eating a balanced diet you won’t have normal levels of these important electrolytes.  (my doctor has pounded this info. into my head, so I know what I’m talking about) Anyway hope this helps. Kathryn K.

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Question:

WebfootVA schreef: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – BTW, though you said you take it at night.  Do you eat dinner late or do you take it with a snack?  If I started to eat my dinner at 9pm I would not only have bad indigestion, I’d probably weigh about 10 pounds more than I do now! Hi Iris, I do both.  I used to eat late dinners when I worked until 9pm so I could eat with my husband in the past.  For me, this was never a big deal.  I either eat a very light dinner at 5pm with my kids and a big snack later on, or I just have a late dinner, but I always eat before the meds. I also work out 5-6 times a week in the mornings at the gym as I’ve tended to gain weight with any of the meds in the past and I didn’t want to go that route again.  It also helps a lot with the everyday stress and gives me exposure to the rapid heart rate….rapid breathing symptoms, which I’m hoping will eventually help me prevent relapse once this goes into remission again. take care, Lene Well, I’ll probably have to take it in the morning then, or at least with my dinner around 7pm.  If I eat much later, I feel queasy when I go to bed. I need to start working out again.  I don’t have a weight problem but I am noticing a growing flab problem!  Exercise was my salvation when I had PA’s 10 years ago, but now I’ve developed a bit of a phobia–also, I suspect tied to the rapid heart rate, sweating, etc. BTW, the doc wants me to start out on 25 mg for a week then increase to 50mg where I’ll stay if the drug is successful.  Is 25 mg a low enough dose to start? Should I ask him for a lower dose?  I only weigh about 112, although I have a friend who doesn’t even tip the scales at 100 lbs and she started at 50 mg with no problem. Ever more questions. Iris —

  Iris, I feel your doctor knows about your fear of meds (which I recognize completely) and therefore starts your medication on a very low dose indeed. You should have no problems taking this at any time of the day. And: the proof of the pudding is in the eating. Try it and do it asap because you’ve been torturing yourself for too long now. Just do it! You’ll survive. Just as I did, so many times now (and still fraking out over every new med but having learnt to take it. If I can do it, you certainly can! I wish you knew me better to discover how true this is… Philip Peters

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – WebfootVA schreef: BTW, though you said you take it at night.  Do you eat dinner late or do you take it with a snack?  If I started to eat my dinner at 9pm I would not only have bad indigestion, I’d probably weigh about 10 pounds more than I do now! Hi Iris, I do both.  I used to eat late dinners when I worked until 9pm so I could eat with my husband in the past.  For me, this was never a big deal.  I either eat a very light dinner at 5pm with my kids and a big snack later on, or I just have a late dinner, but I always eat before the meds. I also work out 5-6 times a week in the mornings at the gym as I’ve tended to gain weight with any of the meds in the past and I didn’t want to go that route again.  It also helps a lot with the everyday stress and gives me exposure to the rapid heart rate….rapid breathing symptoms, which I’m hoping will eventually help me prevent relapse once this goes into remission again. take care, Lene Well, I’ll probably have to take it in the morning then, or at least with my dinner around 7pm.  If I eat much later, I feel queasy when I go to bed. I need to start working out again.  I don’t have a weight problem but I am noticing a growing flab problem!  Exercise was my salvation when I had PA’s 10 years ago, but now I’ve developed a bit of a phobia–also, I suspect tied to the rapid heart rate, sweating, etc. BTW, the doc wants me to start out on 25 mg for a week then increase to 50mg where I’ll stay if the drug is successful.  Is 25 mg a low enough dose to start? Should I ask him for a lower dose?  I only weigh about 112, although I have a friend who doesn’t even tip the scales at 100 lbs and she started at 50 mg with no problem. Ever more questions. Iris —   Iris, I feel your doctor knows about your fear of meds (which I recognize completely) and therefore starts your medication on a very low dose indeed. You should have no problems taking this at any time of the day. And: the proof of the pudding is in the eating. Try it and do it asap because you’ve been torturing yourself for too long now. Just do it! You’ll survive. Just as I did, so many times now (and still fraking out over every new med but having learnt to take it. If I can do it, you certainly can! I wish you knew me better to discover how true this is… Philip Peters

Philip: What a nice reply!  I’m going to print it out and tape it to the mirror, ’cause I’ve decided I’m going to start tonight! Iris (hoping to be successful…) —

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – BTW, though you said you take it at night.  Do you eat dinner late or do you take it with a snack?  If I started to eat my dinner at 9pm I would not only have bad indigestion, I’d probably weigh about 10 pounds more than I do now! Hi Iris, I do both.  I used to eat late dinners when I worked until 9pm so I could eat with my husband in the past.  For me, this was never a big deal.  I either eat a very light dinner at 5pm with my kids and a big snack later on, or I just have a late dinner, but I always eat before the meds. I also work out 5-6 times a week in the mornings at the gym as I’ve tended to gain weight with any of the meds in the past and I didn’t want to go that route again.  It also helps a lot with the everyday stress and gives me exposure to the rapid heart rate….rapid breathing symptoms, which I’m hoping will eventually help me prevent relapse once this goes into remission again. take care, Lene

Well, I’ll probably have to take it in the morning then, or at least with my dinner around 7pm.  If I eat much later, I feel queasy when I go to bed. I need to start working out again.  I don’t have a weight problem but I am noticing a growing flab problem!  Exercise was my salvation when I had PA’s 10 years ago, but now I’ve developed a bit of a phobia–also, I suspect tied to the rapid heart rate, sweating, etc. BTW, the doc wants me to start out on 25 mg for a week then increase to 50mg where I’ll stay if the drug is successful.  Is 25 mg a low enough dose to start? Should I ask him for a lower dose?  I only weigh about 112, although I have a friend who doesn’t even tip the scales at 100 lbs and she started at 50 mg with no problem. Ever more questions. Iris —

Response:

BTW, though you said you take it at night.  Do you eat dinner late or do you take it with a snack?  If I started to eat my dinner at 9pm I would not only have bad indigestion, I’d probably weigh about 10 pounds more than I do now! Hi Iris,

I do both.  I used to eat late dinners when I worked until 9pm so I could eat with my husband in the past.  For me, this was never a big deal.  I either eat a very light dinner at 5pm with my kids and a big snack later on, or I just have a late dinner, but I always eat before the meds. I also work out 5-6 times a week in the mornings at the gym as I’ve tended to gain weight with any of the meds in the past and I didn’t want to go that route again.  It also helps a lot with the everyday stress and gives me exposure to the rapid heart rate….rapid breathing symptoms, which I’m hoping will eventually help me prevent relapse once this goes into remission again. take care, Lene – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

Okay, after taking Zoloft for the first time last night, I felt so wired up today. How long are the side effects going to take? Why do some people have more side effects at first than others? PS make sure you eat with it.  I noticed a BIG difference in severity of side effects depending on whether I had a full stomache or not.

Good advice Lene.  I’m still working on starting my Zoloft (sigh…) and the reason I was leaning toward taking it at breakfast was to lessen the side effect possibility.  I’ve had this reaction with several other drugs. If I take them with food (if it’s an option), I always tolerate them better.  I’m not a scientist, but I think food slows the absorbtion rate, so your body can better adjust. BTW, though you said you take it at night.  Do you eat dinner late or do you take it with a snack?  If I started to eat my dinner at 9pm I would not only have bad indigestion, I’d probably weigh about 10 pounds more than I do now! Iris —

Response:

Okay, after taking Zoloft for the first time last night, I felt so wired up today. How long are the side effects going to take?

<snipped for space I’m not a doctor but I do believe that, while there is a possibility that you are experiencing a reaction to Zoloft, it’s an infinitessimal one. Most likely you have hyped yourself up over it with anticipation. ISTM a little too early for any reaction at all, good or bad… Sad to say, we anxiety types do this all too easily — Gary Cooper

Response:

Okay, after taking Zoloft for the first time last night, I felt so wired up today. How long are the side effects going to take? Why do some people have more side effects at first than others?

Side effects with zoloft at first are extremely common.  I’ve been on it for 10 weeks, My side effects lasted about four weeks.  However, my husband who is also on zoloft for chronic pain management had few side effects and none of the ones that I did.    I found that I had to work a bit with the time I took it, to manage the side effects better at first. Some people are just more sensitive to meds.  Myself included.  I usually have side effects to everything.  Try and keep in mind that that the side effects are a temporary situation and well worth getting through in order to give it a chance and see if this is the answer for you. PS make sure you eat with it.  I noticed a BIG difference in severity of side effects depending on whether I had a full stomache or not. take care Lene – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

Okay, after taking Zoloft for the first time last night, I felt so wired up today. How long are the side effects going to take? Why do some people have more side effects at first than others? Is it kind of a Riddlin effect.  Kids who take it and don’t need it tend to react to it differently and get hyped up.  and whereas kids who need the medication the most feel the effect immediately.    mmm.  in that case  is it true that if you’re feeling overanxious when initially using Zoloft   that you’re closer to healthy than you are sick?    just a hopeful thought

Response:

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, I’m a new poster to this list and I am hoping that someone out there can give me some advice on Effexor. I take anti-depressants for chronic pain.  I just recently switched from Serzone to Effexor.  The Serzone was working well, but I was having trouble concentrating. I have been taking the Effexor for two weeks.  When I first started taking it, I was taking 75 mg. per day, but I had terrible side effects.  I had panic attacks, blurred vision so bad I couldn’t drive, twitching/shaking, and more. I’ve cut the dosage down to 37.5 but I’m still having some sleep disturbances and difficulty achieving orgasm.  Other than that, I’m actually feeling pretty good on it?  Does anybody have any input on this? Or had any experiences with side effects?

Been on it about 9-10 months.  Have had mostly good to say about it (but the first couple of days were tough).  The side effects have waned considerably without excessive loss of efficacy.  I still don’t sleep well though unless I take my nighly Ambien.  I don’t know if that particularly side effect will ever go away.  Given that I already had problems with insomnia… But by and large it’s been great for me.  The only times that it seems to not keep me from slipping are hormone upheaval times and I’d have to guess by your address name that this won’t be a problem for you.  (too much anyway). Take care and good luck, KCat — For more information about this service, send e-mail to:

Response:

I take anti-depressants for chronic pain.  I just recently switched from Serzone to Effexor.  The Serzone was working well, but I was having trouble concentrating. I have been taking the Effexor for two weeks.  When I first started taking it, I was taking 75 mg. per day, but I had terrible side effects.  I had panic attacks, blurred vision so bad I couldn’t drive, twitching/shaking, and more.

I am currently taking Effexor myself at 150mg a day with no severe problems. It took me over two weeks to adjust to it though.  The very first day I took the medication was not very pleasant, as I recall.  I had all kinds of side effects for the first two weeks.  These side effects grew less with time. I’ve cut the dosage down to 37.5 but I’m still having some sleep disturbances and difficulty achieving orgasm.  Other than that, I’m actually feeling pretty good on it?  Does anybody have any input on this? Or had any experiences with side effects?

Effexor can cause both of the problems you describe.  In my case, my last dosage is at 4 PM so I do not have problems sleeping.  Maybe you should consult your doctor over the times you take the medication.  Effexor can cause anorgasmia and other anomalies of that kind (I know!), but except in severe cases this should not be a severe problem (in some ways it can be viewed as an advantage!). If you need more details feel free to mail me at (remove the —-)

Response:

I have been taking the Effexor for two weeks.  When I first started taking it, I was taking 75 mg. per day, but I had terrible side effects.  

My doctor started me out at 37.5 per day for a few days, then I went up to 75. Now, I’m at 150. Of the four ADs I’ve been on, Effexor has probably been the least annoying. I’ve cut the dosage down to 37.5 but I’m still having some sleep disturbances and difficulty achieving orgasm.  

Effexor tends to be stimulating. My pdoc had me go with the last dose about 4 PM and that helped. (Actually, as long as I don’t take it immediately before going to bed.) Other than that, I’m actually feeling pretty good on it

Charlie’s Sneaker Pages: http://sneakers.pair.com/ Best Value in Airplanes: http://www.boeing.com/

Response:

Hi, I’m a new poster to this list and I am hoping that someone out there can give me some advice on Effexor. I take anti-depressants for chronic pain.  I just recently switched from Serzone to Effexor.  The Serzone was working well, but I was having trouble concentrating. I have been taking the Effexor for two weeks.  When I first started taking it, I was taking 75 mg. per day, but I had terrible side effects.  I had panic attacks, blurred vision so bad I couldn’t drive, twitching/shaking, and more.   I’ve cut the dosage down to 37.5 but I’m still having some sleep disturbances and difficulty achieving orgasm.  Other than that, I’m actually feeling pretty good on it?  Does anybody have any input on this? Or had any experiences with side effects?

Response: