Question:

I have read posts from people who talk about having strange dreams while taking Singulair I seem to remember something about visual disturbances and Atrovent, and

I had weird dreams from singulair and am making an appointment with an eye doctor as I am having visual problems with atrovent I think. The reason being,I went off of atrovent for one week and my eye problems cleared up. The first day after returning to atrovent my visual problems started back.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have read posts from people who talk about having strange dreams while taking Singulair I seem to remember something about visual disturbances and Atrovent, and I had weird dreams from singulair and am making an appointment with an eye doctor as I am having visual problems with atrovent I think. The reason being,I went off of atrovent for one week and my eye problems cleared up. The first day after returning to atrovent my visual problems started back.

Just a thought…Have you checked your blood pressure recently? You need to tell the Dr who prescribed it of your visual problems and the possability of it being caused by the Atrovent….vision problems could be a sign of a more serious problem. Jacquie

Response:

I have a 7-year-old-son who has been diagnosed with Asperger’s Syndrome, which is basically a mild form of autism. He talked late and had other developmental delays as well. He also had pretty severe problems with asthma from ages 2-1/2 to 6, and has taken a lot of medications over the last 4-1/2 years. His asthma is much better now, although we still occasionally need albuterol. I don’t think the asthma meds caused his developmental problems but I am wondering if they could have aggravated them. The signs were there before he was a year old, although we didn’t recognize them at the time. However, he seemed to get more fearful and less sociable between the ages of 2 and 3. He became very obsessive and started having major tantrums when he was about 4-1/2. At various times he has taken: Intal via nebulizer, Atrovent nebulizer, Nasarel (flunisolide) used as an inhaled steroid (placed in the nebulizer along with the Atrovent, rather than as a nasal spray,) Serevent inhaler (only a for a short time before he stopped sleeping) Flovent in various strengths, and Singulair. of course, he also took plenty of albuterol via nebulizer and inhaler, and  many oral prednisone bursts. I remember the hyperactivity and irritability from albuterol and prednisone far too well. I have read posts from people who talk about having strange dreams while taking Singulair. I seem to remember something about visual disturbances and Atrovent, and possible problems with vertigo and Intal. I realize these are not common side effects. But considering my son could not tell me how he was feeling when he was younger, I have to wonder if these things were happening. He has what is describe as "sensory defensiveness"—a hypersensitivity to certain textures and unexpected touch. He also dislike certain kinds of movement and is fearful of falling. I have been told this could reflect balance problems and affect gross motor development. What did it do to him while he was growing up if he felt ready to fall most of the time, or things suddenly looked different, or if he felt unable to sit still? If Singulair can cause strange dreams, what else could it have done to his brain? Does this sound familiar to anyone? Any other parents out there whose kids have asthma and developmental delays? Jean in NC

Response:

Question:

I am a 23 year old who has had excercise induced asthma since I was 16.  Until I was 22, I was able to control my symptoms with Proventil. In the past year, I developed horrible asthma symptoms on a regular basis, not just from excercise.  While I have been able to control the symptoms with Pulmicort and Serevent during regular activity, I am still unable to excercise easily.  It take me weeks to build up the ability to jog on a treadmill for 10 minutes.  I have always been an active person and have become frustrated and angered by my inability to excercise.

Ask your doctor about FloVent.  I consider it a miracle drug since my asthma and COPD are slowly improving ever since I started taking it. If anyone has any suggestions on medications and/or other techniques that help them with their excercise induced asthma, please contact me by email at Monitoring you lung condition with a peak flow meter can let you know where you are at: an Action Plan can be used to adjust asthma drugs per peak flow readings. Before vigorous exercise you should be near the top of the Green Zone. Monitor the smog level and pollen levels (if allergic) and exercise when levels are low; usually in the morning or late evening. Breathe thru the nose to filter out irritatants and humidify the air (some wear a surgical mask). Warm up slowly. Links;

Try Tai Chi.  It is good exercise, promotes physical mobility and flexibility and once you get good at it, you will be surprised at the increase in fitness. http://www.physsportsmed.com/issues/jan_96/rupp.htm   Diagnosis and Management of Exercise-Induced Asthma, Jan 96 http://asthma.miningco.com/msub5.htm Sports and Exercise http://www.aaaai.org/public/publicedmat/tips/tip01.html EXERCISE-INDUCED ASTHM & BRONCHOSPASM (AAAAI) http://www.runnersworld.com/injuries/asthma.html ASTHMA, EXERCISE-INDUCED Ellis

Sue "It was said she held a grudge until it died of old age, and then had it stuff and mounted…"                         David Weber

Response:

Aha – Norm – I’m one step ahead of you again – I’ve set up my own interstellar spamming station – now even extraterrestrials will be prewarned about your spamtastic spuriosity!! You see Norm – once again buteyko fails in the face of scientific rigour and advancement. For those interested SETI – The Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence – have created a downloadable data-chunk screensaver that will allow you to http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/ Rich. (In addition there are reports of a distinct lack of intelligent life on planet Buteyko!!!!!!!)

Response:

Hi Richard I’m amused, I’m sure you can do better than that. I couldn’t find any reference to asthma in you posting at all. Norman – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Aha – Norm – I’m one step ahead of you again – I’ve set up my own interstellar spamming station – now even extraterrestrials will be prewarned about your spamtastic spuriosity!! You see Norm – once again buteyko fails in the face of scientific rigour and advancement. For those interested SETI – The Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence – have created a downloadable data-chunk screensaver that will allow you to http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/ Rich. (In addition there are reports of a distinct lack of intelligent life on planet Buteyko!!!!!!!)

Response:

Hi Richard – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Richard I’m amused, I’m sure you can do better than that. I couldn’t find any reference to asthma in you posting at all. Norman Ahhh Norm – your ignorance is once again apparent – ET asked for email replies – read her post – I am not interested in public displays and proliferation – just helping fellow asthmatics and sportspeople.

Yes I know, my mistake. I noticed that just after I’d posted it to the ng. So I sent a reply by email as well. Norman

Response:

Hi Richard I’m amused, I’m sure you can do better than that. I couldn’t find any reference to asthma in you posting at all. Norman

Ahhh Norm – your ignorance is once again apparent – ET asked for email replies – read her post – I am not interested in public displays and proliferation – just helping fellow asthmatics and sportspeople.

Response:

I would suggest you speak to your pulmonologist about one of the leukotriene inhibitors (ACCOLATE, ZYFLO or my preference SINGULAIR).  All of these have been beneficial to various degrees in exercise induced asthma. Scooby RCP, EMT-P

Response:

I am a 23 year old who has had excercise induced asthma since I was 16.  Until I was 22, I was able to control my symptoms with Proventil. In the past year, I developed horrible asthma symptoms on a regular basis, not just from excercise.  While I have been able to control the symptoms with Pulmicort and Serevent during regular activity, I am still unable to excercise easily.  It take me weeks to build up the ability to jog on a treadmill for 10 minutes.  I have always been an active person and have become frustrated and angered by my inability to excercise.   If anyone has any suggestions on medications and/or other techniques that help them with their excercise induced asthma, please contact me by email at

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am a 23 year old who has had exercise induced asthma since I was 16. Until I was 22, I was able to control my symptoms with Proventil. In the past year, I developed horrible asthma symptoms on a regular basis, not just from excercise. While I have been able to control the symptoms with Pulmicort and Serevent during regular activity, I am still unable to excercise easily.  It take me weeks to build up the ability to jog on a treadmill for 10 minutes.  I have always been an active person and have become frustrated and angered by my inability to excercise. If anyone has any suggestions on medications and/or other techniques that help them with their excercise induced asthma, please contact me by email at

Hi I’ve found the Buteyko breathing technique very useful when exercising, I now no longer need to use Ventolin before exercise. Give it a try. Buteyko is a breathing technique. But unlike many other breathing methods Buteyko’s aim is to breath less. Buteyko has improved my asthma, reduced my Ventolin to zero and my steroids by half. I would recommend all asthmatics to try it to see if it works for them. However a word of warning, some have felt so good after using it for a few months they have thrown their medication away. You should continue to carry your medication even though your asthma may be in remission. Buteyko is a great method to help reduce asthma – it is not a miracle cure. For a good introducing and more information on Buteyko try http://www.wt.com.au/~pkolb/buteyko.htm. It is best viewed by using the option to download the whole site and then read at leisure. There is quite a lot of it. See the ‘Get Started Now’ section, to get you started. It is completely free. But for both sides of the camp go to http://home.netscape.com/ and search for Buteyko using SNAP. This will give you other sites of interest including http://home.pacbell.net/colin/ which is Colin Campell’s rejection of the method (which I disagree with). Norman

Response:

Question:

: You could be having an allergic reaction to the medication.  This is : something you should report to both your doctor and pharmacist (IMO a : pharmacist tends to do a better job of keeping track of the : medications you shouldn’t take than a doctor does). : There should be no direct problem from abruptly stopping Accolate, : however Rule #2 for asthmatics is: Never stop taking a medication : without checking with a doctor (unless this is covered by an ‘Asthma : Action Plan’). Except in this case, there is the potential for not stopping to be life-threatening.  I believe that the rule is if you get an allergic reaction to some medication, especially things like antibiotics, that you stop the medication first and find a doctor next, the speed depending on how serious the reaction is. : You should try to find a walk-in clinic in your area and consult with : a doctor. I agree entirely, except that I think that it would be a good idea to stop taking the medication if you suspect that it is causing an allergic reaction, and then get your hands on a doctor ASAP. Cheers, Kin Hoong

Response:

If you break out in an itchy blotchy rash after each dose then you should clearly stop the drug. There is no danger inherent to stopping Accolate abruptly other than worsening asthma. If you don’t feel that you were responding tot he Accolate than this should not be a problem. Keep taking the Zyrtec, it may be the only thing stopping a more severe reaction. If your asthma worsens contact your doctor immediately. — Good Luck, CBI, M.D. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Folks, I need some information.  Both my pharmacist and physician are unavailable for another two weeks [the health center is closed for the XMas holidays]. I have been taking Accolate for just over 2 weeks now; to be honest, I haven’t noticed a significant change in my asthma that can definitely be attributed to the Accolate as opposed to just getting over the stupid virus that I have had; though being sick means judging how well the underlying asthma *itself* is doing has been a challenge [respiratory infections are an almost guaranteed flare-er of my asthma]. HOWEVER, that is not what concerns me.  Last night for the third time or so that I have taken my dose I have broken out in a blotch rash/hives and been *severely* itchy, especiall on my legs.  Last night I finally clued into the fact that I think the Accolate is what is causing it — it started within a half hour of taking it, and the only thing I had was it and some water; nothing else that I can think of could possible have triggered the reaction.  I could have handled the headache that many people get; this kind of itchiness is intolerable. So, I haven’t taken my dose this morning [I am pretending I forgot ], and I want to stop taking it.  But I need to know if it is safe to stop taking it abruptly or not.  So: IS IT SAFE??  I’ve been on 20mg twice a day since the 11th of December, and have rarely forgotten to take it. FWIW, I am also on Zyrtec [aka Reactine in Canada; and have been for about 5 years] 10mg/d, Pulmicort Turbuhaler 1600mcg/d [haven't come off the increased dose from being sick yet; have been on this dose basically since the week before the US Thanksgiving], and Bricanyl as required [in the last few days, not needed at all].  I have been on deltasone 3X in the last month and a half, most recently a 40mg/d X3d, 20mg/d X3d, 10mg/d X3 days taper regimine [finished under week ago]; I have a burst dose Rx for deltasone [40mg/d X 3 d] if I need to use it, which I am allowed to use. So, folks, is it safe to come off of the Accolate abruptly, and if so/not, what should I look for if anything if I do?  I am assuming my asthma may worsen some, but I think I can manage that ok [I am allowed to flex my medications to a certain degree]. Thanks for your help!! SW.

Response:

HOWEVER, that is not what concerns me.  Last night for the third time or so that I have taken my dose I have broken out in a blotch rash/hives and been *severely* itchy, especiall on my legs.  Last night I finally clued into the fact that I think the Accolate is what is causing it — it started within a half hour of taking it, and the only thing I had was it and some water; nothing else that I can think of could possible have triggered the reaction.  I could have handled the headache that many people get; this kind of itchiness is intolerable.

You could be having an allergic reaction to the medication.  This is something you should report to both your doctor and pharmacist (IMO a pharmacist tends to do a better job of keeping track of the medications you shouldn’t take than a doctor does). There should be no direct problem from abruptly stopping Accolate, however Rule #2 for asthmatics is: Never stop taking a medication without checking with a doctor (unless this is covered by an ‘Asthma Action Plan’). You should try to find a walk-in clinic in your area and consult with a doctor.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Folks, I need some information.  Both my pharmacist and physician are unavailable for another two weeks [the health center is closed for the XMas holidays]. I have been taking Accolate for just over 2 weeks now; to be honest, I haven’t noticed a significant change in my asthma that can definitely be attributed to the Accolate as opposed to just getting over the stupid virus that I have had; though being sick means judging how well the underlying asthma *itself* is doing has been a challenge [respiratory infections are an almost guaranteed flare-er of my asthma]. HOWEVER, that is not what concerns me.  Last night for the third time or so that I have taken my dose I have broken out in a blotch rash/hives and been *severely* itchy, especiall on my legs.  Last night I finally clued into the fact that I think the Accolate is what is causing it — it started within a half hour of taking it, and the only thing I had was it and some water; nothing else that I can think of could possible have triggered the reaction.  I could have handled the headache that many people get; this kind of itchiness is intolerable. So, I haven’t taken my dose this morning [I am pretending I forgot ], and I want to stop taking it.  But I need to know if it is safe to stop taking it abruptly or not.  So: IS IT SAFE??  I’ve been on 20mg twice a day since the 11th of December, and have rarely forgotten to take it. FWIW, I am also on Zyrtec [aka Reactine in Canada; and have been for about 5 years] 10mg/d, Pulmicort Turbuhaler 1600mcg/d [haven't come off the increased dose from being sick yet; have been on this dose basically since the week before the US Thanksgiving], and Bricanyl as required [in the last few days, not needed at all].  I have been on deltasone 3X in the last month and a half, most recently a 40mg/d X3d, 20mg/d X3d, 10mg/d X3 days taper regimine [finished under week ago]; I have a burst dose Rx for deltasone [40mg/d X 3 d] if I need to use it, which I am allowed to use. So, folks, is it safe to come off of the Accolate abruptly, and if so/not, what should I look for if anything if I do?  I am assuming my asthma may worsen some, but I think I can manage that ok [I am allowed to flex my medications to a certain degree]. SW.

First, I’m not a doctor, but a well informed asthmatic taking Singulair (sometimes), inhaled steroids (just switching from Vanceril DS to Pulmicort; etc. Antileukotrienes like Accolate and Singulair don’t help all asthmatics, maybe half or 2/3. Your main preventor drug is your inhaled steroids, Pulmicort; and 1600ug is a very High Dose. My advice would be to try stopping Accolate for a while; any drug that can cause an allergic reaction like you described could be dangerous; and if it doesn’t help why take it.[The nice thing about asthma drugs is you can tell whether or not they are working] You may want to try Accolate again after your exacerbation is under control; or try the better drug Singulair. Here’s the Prescribing Info on Accolate: http://www.accolateinfo.com/ http://www.rxlist.com/cgi/generic/zafirlukast.htm zafirlukast Excerpt: "Contraindications: Zafirlukast is contraindicated in patients who are hypersensitive  to zafirlukast or any of its inactive ingredients." My personal experience with a similar drug Singulair is initially it increased my personal best peak flow by 10%. Later I noticed I seemed to have signs of fatigue, and it doesn’t seem to help at all during exacerbations. So now I take it about every other day. It seems to work best when my asthma is relatively well controlled. I have recently had to switch to a higher strength steroid inhaler (Pulmicort) I had hoped the antileukotriene would be a steroid sparing drug, but it doesn’t seem to be the case; tho I think it still helps. Ellis

Response:

Folks, I need some information.  Both my pharmacist and physician are unavailable for another two weeks [the health center is closed for the XMas holidays]. I have been taking Accolate for just over 2 weeks now; to be honest, I haven’t noticed a significant change in my asthma that can definitely be attributed to the Accolate as opposed to just getting over the stupid virus that I have had; though being sick means judging how well the underlying asthma *itself* is doing has been a challenge [respiratory infections are an almost guaranteed flare-er of my asthma]. HOWEVER, that is not what concerns me.  Last night for the third time or so that I have taken my dose I have broken out in a blotch rash/hives and been *severely* itchy, especiall on my legs.  Last night I finally clued into the fact that I think the Accolate is what is causing it — it started within a half hour of taking it, and the only thing I had was it and some water; nothing else that I can think of could possible have triggered the reaction.  I could have handled the headache that many people get; this kind of itchiness is intolerable. So, I haven’t taken my dose this morning [I am pretending I forgot ], and I want to stop taking it.  But I need to know if it is safe to stop taking it abruptly or not.  So: IS IT SAFE??  I’ve been on 20mg twice a day since the 11th of December, and have rarely forgotten to take it. FWIW, I am also on Zyrtec [aka Reactine in Canada; and have been for about 5 years] 10mg/d, Pulmicort Turbuhaler 1600mcg/d [haven't come off the increased dose from being sick yet; have been on this dose basically since the week before the US Thanksgiving], and Bricanyl as required [in the last few days, not needed at all].  I have been on deltasone 3X in the last month and a half, most recently a 40mg/d X3d, 20mg/d X3d, 10mg/d X3 days taper regimine [finished under week ago]; I have a burst dose Rx for deltasone [40mg/d X 3 d] if I need to use it, which I am allowed to use. So, folks, is it safe to come off of the Accolate abruptly, and if so/not, what should I look for if anything if I do?  I am assuming my asthma may worsen some, but I think I can manage that ok [I am allowed to flex my medications to a certain degree]. Thanks for your help!! SW.

Response:

Question:

I watched the Primetime report on Paxil. We all know what sensationalist, alarmist crap many of these media reports are, but here’s what I DID get from the report: 1. I suspect, because it was claimed outright, that the makers of antidepressant drugs haven’t much of a clue how they work. The main evidence claimed was that the drug increases brain weight, so it MUST be getting to the brain. [So does a bullet.] 2. 20-40% of patients on Paxil have significant withdrawal symptoms. Over 100 adolescents committed suicide because of it. These numbers were in internal documents but denied to the public because they were "not statistically significant". . 3. Its main target in many adolescents is headaches . . . yet look at the nature of depression and consider the range of effects any drug must have to fight that many symptoms. SURELY any drug that does THAT many things to our MINDS has a strong potential to be much worse than the hot flashes it’s intended to mitigate in HT patients. 4. Some patients require "months" of agony to withdraw from Paxil. Guess what? IAD resumes in "months". The biggest message I came away with? I’m going to do a lot of reading before I even consider an antidepressant drug. And since the only "cure" I’ ve read about yet for hot flashes is antidepressants, and the "cure" is just a 50% reduction, and hot flashes are virtually guaranteed, I’m going to complete that reading before choosing HT. Now multiply that scenario by the number of SEs of HT, and realize that the fix for many of those SEs is another drug . . . with its own SEs, and that no drug company WILLINGLY admits to SEs. I.P. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was just watching GMA whereby they discussed Paxil and how the withdrawal symptoms have been greatly downplayed.  The side effects can vary from headaches to debilitating electrical shock sensations. Apparently the company producing the drug have this repressed data from their own studies although they state that they have made the physicians aware.  They will be presenting this story tonight on Primetime for those interested.

Response:

I was just watching GMA whereby they discussed Paxil and how the withdrawal symptoms have been greatly downplayed.  The side effects can vary from headaches to debilitating electrical shock sensations. Apparently the company producing the drug have this repressed data from their own studies although they state that they have made the physicians aware.  They will be presenting this story tonight on Primetime for those interested. Sandi

Paxil is about the worst to get off because it has a very short half-life. http://www.citypages.com/databank/23/1141/article10788.asp the 2nd page addresses the half-life issues. HTH Lori

Response:

conviction: Now THAT would worry my wife. I’m irritable enough as it is; is Clarence — and will I become — grouchy because of ADT? Or has ADT made Clarence more pleasant than he was pre-PC by suppressing his emotions? I.P.

When I was a kid, I put my hand on the stove. It was HOT! I’m that sort of person who lives outside the edge. As for being pleasant at any time, my wife has called me "Grumpy" for as long as I can remember. Point is, I’m trying to get in a few days work every week to maintain my "Millionaire" status, branded on me by CentreLink, (our learned Welfare Organisation), 4 yrs ago after I’d been ratting trash cans for sustenance for 3 months due to a slight economic downturn. Believe me, if you get on ADT, you can kiss it all goodbye. I’m starting to feel I’ll end up like Jack Nicholson in "One Flew Over The Cuckoo’s Nest". Androcur Tabs 50mg/day plus a shot of Lucrin quarterly. and revert to the ADT for another 12 months. What a blast!! — "if you can see it coming, head it off at the pass, else put the wagons in a circle" — Please reply to this ng as: — my email adress is 100% faked to prevent proliferation of SPAM!! — Regards — Clarence Crow

Response:

I.P. wrote The real message of my personal dilemma for others in this forum is this: PC and its treatment are EXTREMELY complicated stuff . . . far more so than any doctor has time to explain thoroughly. Read. And read. And read. Those two points are possibly the most important of any when dealing with this bastard.

Oh . . . you mean the CANCER. I.P.

Response:

The real message of my personal dilemma for others in this forum is this: PC and its treatment are EXTREMELY complicated stuff . . . far more so than any doctor has time to explain thoroughly. Read. And read. And read.

Those two points are possibly the most important of any when dealing with this bastard. — Prostate Cancer Survivor (so far), not a doctor Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3bN0M0 PSA  .1  .1  .1  .27  .37  .75 PSA  .34 .22 .15 .21 .32 PSA  .07 .05 .06 Lupron (3 mo) 8/03 (48), 12/03, 4/04 (49), 09/04 (50) non Illegitimi carborundum

Response:

Now THAT would worry my wife. I’m irritable enough as it is; is Clarence — and will I become — grouchy because of ADT? Or has ADT made Clarence more pleasant than he was pre-PC by suppressing his emotions? I.P.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – And a hearty ‘Good Morning’ to you too, Clarence. — Prostate Cancer Survivor (so far), not a doctor Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3bN0M0 PSA  .1  .1  .1  .27  .37  .75 PSA  .34 .22 .15 .21 .32 PSA  .07 .05 .06 Lupron (3 mo) 8/03 (48), 12/03, 4/04 (49), 09/04 (50) non Illegitimi carborundum up off the mat and advised with conviction: Antidepressant treats hot flashes in men taking hormonal therapy for prostate cancer, Mayo study finds Paxil (paroxetine) diminishes hot flashes in men who are receiving hormone therapy for prostate cancer. <snip BLAH, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH!! There’s just too many REAMS of doubtful INFORMATION being posted here!! Listen up, all you pussies, I’m a grouchy old buzzard currently on ADT Hormones  prior to RAD.

Response:

Hi All Men don’t have hot flashes, they have power surges!! Jamie

Response:

Hi Sandi…. I know all about the withdrawal symptoms of these SSRI drugs simply because my daughter and my sister suffer from seratonin deficiency and are on them. One on Welbutrin (Zyban) and the other on Effexor. Our ditz of a family doctor told my daughter to just cut them out in two days.  She couldn’t get off the couch due to dizzy spells and nausea!!  I phoned the pharmacy and they were horrified.  Thanks to them, she cut them down VERY gradually and was OK.  It would have happened to my sister as well, had I not gone thru this with my daughter, and warned her. Who should we blame??  Doctors who do not read the literature and drug companies who do not disclose all the details.  All of these drugs are Prozac derivatives (some 30 of them, I believe) and they do have major withdrawal problems.  Paxil has been found to cause suicidal tendencies……which it is supposed to be eliminating. These anti-depressants are very powerful drugs, so use them as your pharmacist directs you to…..they seem to know more.  And check to see if there are any cross-medication problems as well. And thanks for the info on Primetime….I will look for it tonight. Heather

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was just watching GMA whereby they discussed Paxil and how the withdrawal symptoms have been greatly downplayed.  The side effects can vary from headaches to debilitating electrical shock sensations. Apparently the company producing the drug have this repressed data from their own studies although they state that they have made the physicians aware.  They will be presenting this story tonight on Primetime for those interested. Sandi

Response:

The effects you list, side or not, are but a very small part of the menu, and don’t address the severity some people encounter with some effects or the relative commonality of various effects. Some effects take months to show up, some take months to disappear after ADT cessation, and some can be permanent. And even the benefits of ADT are debatable, regardless of the SEs. If I become convinced I can try ADT for a month or two and realisticaly assess its impacts without being committed to long-term impacts, I’ll jump on the bandwagon. My research so far doesn’t strongly support that approach. I consider the distinction between intended effects and SEs vital because generally, intended effects address benefit and SEs address harm. If a treatment doesn’t work, SEs are irrelevant because I’m not trying it. And many trials study only the intended effect — prolonged heartbeat — without considering QOL. IMO, that renders some studies almost moot. The real message of my personal dilemma for others in this forum is this: PC and its treatment are EXTREMELY complicated stuff . . . far more so than any doctor has time to explain thoroughly. Read. And read. And read. I took several pages of typewritten questions to each of the several doctors I consulted about my PC. Every doctor was very pleased and impressed at this, and some said they wished every patient would do it. I.P.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 10. I did, and it makes me wonder . . . Do I want to spend my last years obsessed with juggling chemicals and side effects with a chemically impaired brain, or spend maybe fewer — or maybe more — years being I.P. Freely rather than a nut case? I imagine most people relatively recently diagnosed obsess of the issues of ‘life as I knew it’ vs. ‘life as it will be or may be.’ But, what you really need to concern yourself with is the effects of the drugs.  Calling some effects "intended" and the others as "side" effects is, IMHO, a distraction.  Everything you put in your body has effects.  Every place you put your body has effects.  Every position you put your body in and the duration you keep your body in that position has effects.  Every day of your life, you make decisions on thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of permutations that have effects on your body.  It is silly to consider them intended and side effects.  They are just plane effects.  You do this, and that, that and that happens.  Some effects may be positive.  They may be negative.  They may be positive now and negative later.  Or visa versa. They may be positive and negative concurrently. What you really have to do is list the effects and possible effects of ADT. They are; 1. extended life.  2. temporary impotence.  3. temporary disinterest.  They may also be; 1. permanent impotence, 2. emotional instability, 3. bone mass loss, 4. hot flashes. Then, decide if some of the effects are worth it in lieu of the others. But, with ADT, you have this great option.  Try it for 30, 60, 90 days. If you don’t like it, send it back… no questions asked.

Response:

And a hearty ‘Good Morning’ to you too, Clarence. — Prostate Cancer Survivor (so far), not a doctor Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3bN0M0 PSA  .1  .1  .1  .27  .37  .75 PSA  .34 .22 .15 .21 .32 PSA  .07 .05 .06 Lupron (3 mo) 8/03 (48), 12/03, 4/04 (49), 09/04 (50) non Illegitimi carborundum

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – up off the mat and advised with conviction: Antidepressant treats hot flashes in men taking hormonal therapy for prostate cancer, Mayo study finds Paxil (paroxetine) diminishes hot flashes in men who are receiving hormone therapy for prostate cancer. <snip BLAH, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH!! There’s just too many REAMS of doubtful INFORMATION being posted here!! Listen up, all you pussies, I’m a grouchy old buzzard currently on ADT Hormones  prior to RAD. The other day I was in a bad mood, so I downed a couple of Amitryptiline (Endep 25) and they damn near killed me. Apart from my being useless for a day and a half, all my Osteo-Arthritis pains magnified, plus a few new ones emerged. I phoned into the Rad Oncology Dept, but was only able to get a nurse, who advised me to CEASE them immediately, and see my GP about some alternative. — "if you can see it coming, head it off at the pass, else put the wagons in a circle" — Please reply to this ng as: — my email adress is 100% faked to prevent proliferation of SPAM!! — Regards — Clarence Crow

Response:

I was just watching GMA whereby they discussed Paxil and how the withdrawal symptoms have been greatly downplayed.

I wonder who is accused of downplaying the withdrawal symptoms.  My wife’s doctor was very frank about the danger of self-unmedicating with it.  To be sure, he called me to tell me, just in case my wife was in a poor state of mind if and when she decided to do it.

Response:

  Each time I’ve seen that yet another antidepressant fixes hot flashes, several thoughts spring to mind: 1. Depression is serious stuff, and antidepressants are serious meds, so any problem requiring antidepressants must be pretty serious.

  (snip) IP is worried about very little. Maybe he should pop a pill The dosage of antidepressant that is required for hot flash control is far less than the therapeutic dosage for depression. Frex, I was prescribed Effexor, an antidepressant, to control the hot flashes caused by Zoladex. The prescription called for a beginning dosage of just 37.5mg. Something similar exists with Proscar, which is used to treat BPH and PCa, and Propecia, which is used to treat male-pattern baldness. Both are finasteride, but the Propecia dosage is far less than Proscar. As it happens, as I reported elsewhere in the NG, I recently switched from Zoladex to Lupron and have far fewer and milder hot flashes so I elected not to proceed with the Effexor. A SE of that decision is that I have saved mucho dinero; Effexor is expensive. Regards, Steve J

Response:

10. I did, and it makes me wonder . . . Do I want to spend my last years obsessed with juggling chemicals and side effects with a chemically impaired brain, or spend maybe fewer — or maybe more — years being I.P. Freely rather than a nut case?

I imagine most people relatively recently diagnosed obsess of the issues of ‘life as I knew it’ vs. ‘life as it will be or may be.’ But, what you really need to concern yourself with is the effects of the drugs.  Calling some effects "intended" and the others as "side" effects is, IMHO, a distraction.  Everything you put in your body has effects.  Every place you put your body has effects.  Every position you put your body in and the duration you keep your body in that position has effects.  Every day of your life, you make decisions on thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of permutations that have effects on your body.  It is silly to consider them intended and side effects.  They are just plane effects.  You do this, and that, that and that happens.  Some effects may be positive.  They may be negative.  They may be positive now and negative later.  Or visa versa. They may be positive and negative concurrently. What you really have to do is list the effects and possible effects of ADT. They are; 1. extended life.  2. temporary impotence.  3. temporary disinterest.  They may also be; 1. permanent impotence, 2. emotional instability, 3. bone mass loss, 4. hot flashes. Then, decide if some of the effects are worth it in lieu of the others. But, with ADT, you have this great option.  Try it for 30, 60, 90 days.  If you don’t like it, send it back… no questions asked.

Response:

I was just watching GMA whereby they discussed Paxil and how the withdrawal symptoms have been greatly downplayed.  The side effects can vary from headaches to debilitating electrical shock sensations. Apparently the company producing the drug have this repressed data from their own studies although they state that they have made the physicians aware.  They will be presenting this story tonight on Primetime for those interested. Sandi

Response:

up off the mat and advised with conviction: Antidepressant treats hot flashes in men taking hormonal therapy for prostate cancer, Mayo study finds Paxil (paroxetine) diminishes hot flashes in men who are receiving hormone therapy for prostate cancer. <snip

BLAH, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH!! There’s just too many REAMS of doubtful INFORMATION being posted here!! Listen up, all you pussies, I’m a grouchy old buzzard currently on ADT Hormones  prior to RAD. The other day I was in a bad mood, so I downed a couple of Amitryptiline (Endep 25) and they damn near killed me. Apart from my being useless for a day and a half, all my Osteo-Arthritis pains magnified, plus a few new ones emerged. I phoned into the Rad Oncology Dept, but was only able to get a nurse, who advised me to CEASE them immediately, and see my GP about some alternative. — "if you can see it coming, head it off at the pass, else put the wagons in a circle" — Please reply to this ng as: — my email adress is 100% faked to prevent proliferation of SPAM!! — Regards — Clarence Crow

Response:

Each time I’ve seen that yet another antidepressant fixes hot flashes, several thoughts spring to mind: 1. Depression is serious stuff, and antidepressants are serious meds, so any problem requiring antidepressants must be pretty serious. 2. Any med that can combat a serious problem must have some pretty serious deliberate effects. If their purpose is to reduce depression, then reducing hot flashes is by definition a SE of the antidepressant. Jeez . . . what are its INTENDED effects? i.e., What changes do they make in my body to achieve their INTENDED effect of reducing depression . . . and obsessive-compulsive disorder, panic disorder, generalized anxiety disorder and social anxiety disorder, among others? 3. Do I want to add those intended effects to the SEs of my meds, which, after all, are the reasons I need antidepressants in the first place? 4. What are the other SEs of the antidepressant, besides reducing the number and severity of hot flashes? 5. How many of the antidepressant’s SEs need additional meds to combat THEM? 6. Worse yet, look up the SEs of these antidepressants. Some of the lists run into scores of effects, many of them serious. 7. When do we stop ingesting exponentially increasing numbers of meds and just get on with our lives and hope we beat the statistics? 8. Who sez the statistics aren’t skewed by all the freaking cancatenated SE meds? 9. And in case that list of questions didn’t give me pause, ask Google about the side effects of Paxil/Prozac . . . and stand back. 10. I did, and it makes me wonder . . . Do I want to spend my last years obsessed with juggling chemicals and side effects with a chemically impaired brain, or spend maybe fewer — or maybe more — years being I.P. Freely rather than a nut case? My wife prefers I.P. Freely. That’s why she married him. And I can think of 647 things more fun to do than sitting here researching medications and SEs. But in case I’m overreacting, I’ll keep reading. The problem with THAT plan is that as I expand my search into an exponentially increasing fan of links, I find more support than opposition to my tentative plan . . . such as the end of this Mayo Clinic reference itself. But maybe that’s a good thing, because the confusion factor shrinks with every new report like this one. Following this Mayo Clinic study leads to scores — hundreds? — of related studies . . . most of them spiralling towards the same dilemma: do we want to maximize our heartbeats with the certainty of SEs, or maximize our QOL with the possibility of many SE-free years, then when (IF?) the PC hits the fan we decide an optimal course based on data at that point? Hell, I just spent half an hour on this, when I couldda been actually WATCHING West Wing . . . or maybe making out with my wife. Now multiply that dilemma by a thousand and add 645 other activities. I suspect that many of us would LOSE free time, not gain it, by opting for HT and its complications. I’ve already spent most of a month researching it, and I haven’t even had one shot or one symptom or one SE yet. I.P.

Antidepressant treats hot flashes in men taking hormonal therapy for prostate cancer, Mayo study finds Paxil (paroxetine) diminishes hot flashes in men who are receiving hormone therapy for prostate cancer, Mayo Clinic researchers report.  An antidepressant medication is an effective treatment to reduce hot flashes in men who are taking hormone therapy for prostate cancer, Mayo Clinic researchers report in the October issue of Mayo Clinic Proceedings. The five-week study followed 18 men who completed the therapy, illustrating that their hot flashes decreased from 6.2 per day to 2.5 per day. Hot flash scores, the frequency multiplied by the severity, decreased in the same period from 10.6 per day to 3 per day. "Newer antidepressants have been proven effective in reducing hot flashes in women but have not been studied in men," says Charles Loprinzi, M.D., Mayo Clinic Division of Medical Oncology and the lead author of the study. "Although hot flashes in men with prostate cancer are well documented," he said, "their treatment has not received as much attention." Some doctors treat hot flashes in men receiving hormonal therapy with a short course of a secondary hormone such as Megestrol acetate. But the Mayo team now expresses some "concern" about these secondary treatments (see below). The study looked at men receiving androgen ablation therapy, also known as hormonal deprivation therapy, or hormonal blockade, which is a well-established treatment for various stages of prostate cancer. The antidepressant tested, paroxetine (Paxil), has been used to treat mental depression, obsessive-compulsive disorder, panic disorder, generalized anxiety disorder and social anxiety disorder, among others. A placebo-controlled trial had previously demonstrated that paroxetine reduced hot flashes in women. The study was conducted between August 2001 and October 2003. Men eligible for the study had to have a history of prostate cancer for which they were receiving androgen ablation therapy. Previous Mayo studies suggested that venlafaxine (Effexor) is effective to treat hot flashes in men undergoing hormonal therapy and that citalopram (Celexa) reduces such hot flashes in women. A commoner, older treatment for hot flashes is Megace (Megestrol acetate). Megace is a progestogen, a man-made form of the female hormone progesterone. Megace is sometimes used to treat prostate cancer and when given with newer hormone blockade drugs like Lupron or Zoladex it reduces hot flashes by up to 90 per cent, according to a Mayo study in 2002. But there have been reports of men whose prostate cancer progressed while taking Megace, In  1999 Oliver Sartor M.D. at Louisiana State University Medical Center, reported "a case in which megestrol acetate (20 mg bid) was administered for symptomatic control of hot flashes in a medically castrated patient with prostate cancer. The patient was subsequently noted to have a rising prostate-specific antigen (PSA) level. Megestrol acetate administration was discontinued, and the PSA level declined. These data indicate that even the low doses of megestrol acetate used for control of hot flashes can be associated with PSA increases in some patients with prostate cancer." This may be especially a concern because, as another study points out, patients whose doctors prescribed Megace for hot flashes have been found to stay on this treatment for three years or more. The authors of the current Mayo study say this therapy "may affect prostate cancer growth and/or cause significant side effects." Patients who do not wish to take an antidepressant for hot flashes need not feel like mavericks. Most patients who experience hot flashes are not interested in adding a medication to suppress them. In a presentation at ASCO in 2001, a team from University of Pennsylvania Cancer Center said that although over 70 per cent of prostate cancer patients they studied complained of "a little" to "some" discomfort during hot flashes, "of those not receiving treatment, fewer than 50 per cent would consider taking medication to treat them." Hot flashes are "a significant side-effect of hormonal treatment," this team concluded, and drugs are available to manage the flashes, but "a significant percentage of patients do not find it as an acceptable option. Therefore, alternative support/educational interventions should also be considered to help patients better understand manage and cope with this treatment side effect. " Others who worked with Dr. Loprinzi on the Paxil study are: Debra Barton, R.N., Ph.D.; Lisa Carpenter; Jeff Sloan, Ph.D.; Paul Novotny; Matthew Gettman, M.D.; and Bradley Christensen, all from Mayo Clinic. knowledge is power – growing old is mandatory – growing wise is optional "Many more men die with prostate cancer than of it. Growing old is invariably fatal. Prostate cancer is only sometimes so." http://community.webtv.net/PALMER_ENT/doc

Response:

Antidepressant treats hot flashes in men taking hormonal therapy for prostate cancer, Mayo study finds Paxil (paroxetine) diminishes hot flashes in men who are receiving hormone therapy for prostate cancer, Mayo Clinic researchers report.  An antidepressant medication is an effective treatment to reduce hot flashes in men who are taking hormone therapy for prostate cancer, Mayo Clinic researchers report in the October issue of Mayo Clinic Proceedings. The five-week study followed 18 men who completed the therapy, illustrating that their hot flashes decreased from 6.2 per day to 2.5 per day. Hot flash scores, the frequency multiplied by the severity, decreased in the same period from 10.6 per day to 3 per day. "Newer antidepressants have been proven effective in reducing hot flashes in women but have not been studied in men," says Charles Loprinzi, M.D., Mayo Clinic Division of Medical Oncology and the lead author of the study. "Although hot flashes in men with prostate cancer are well documented," he said, "their treatment has not received as much attention." Some doctors treat hot flashes in men receiving hormonal therapy with a short course of a secondary hormone such as Megestrol acetate. But the Mayo team now expresses some "concern" about these secondary treatments (see below). The study looked at men receiving androgen ablation therapy, also known as hormonal deprivation therapy, or hormonal blockade, which is a well-established treatment for various stages of prostate cancer. The antidepressant tested, paroxetine (Paxil), has been used to treat mental depression, obsessive-compulsive disorder, panic disorder, generalized anxiety disorder and social anxiety disorder, among others. A placebo-controlled trial had previously demonstrated that paroxetine reduced hot flashes in women. The study was conducted between August 2001 and October 2003. Men eligible for the study had to have a history of prostate cancer for which they were receiving androgen ablation therapy. Previous Mayo studies suggested that venlafaxine (Effexor) is effective to treat hot flashes in men undergoing hormonal therapy and that citalopram (Celexa) reduces such hot flashes in women. A commoner, older treatment for hot flashes is Megace (Megestrol acetate). Megace is a progestogen, a man-made form of the female hormone progesterone. Megace is sometimes used to treat prostate cancer and when given with newer hormone blockade drugs like Lupron or Zoladex it reduces hot flashes by up to 90 per cent, according to a Mayo study in 2002. But there have been reports of men whose prostate cancer progressed while taking Megace, In  1999 Oliver Sartor M.D. at Louisiana State University Medical Center, reported "a case in which megestrol acetate (20 mg bid) was administered for symptomatic control of hot flashes in a medically castrated patient with prostate cancer. The patient was subsequently noted to have a rising prostate-specific antigen (PSA) level. Megestrol acetate administration was discontinued, and the PSA level declined. These data indicate that even the low doses of megestrol acetate used for control of hot flashes can be associated with PSA increases in some patients with prostate cancer." This may be especially a concern because, as another study points out, patients whose doctors prescribed Megace for hot flashes have been found to stay on this treatment for three years or more. The authors of the current Mayo study say this therapy "may affect prostate cancer growth and/or cause significant side effects." Patients who do not wish to take an antidepressant for hot flashes need not feel like mavericks. Most patients who experience hot flashes are not interested in adding a medication to suppress them. In a presentation at ASCO in 2001, a team from University of Pennsylvania Cancer Center said that although over 70 per cent of prostate cancer patients they studied complained of "a little" to "some" discomfort during hot flashes, "of those not receiving treatment, fewer than 50 per cent would consider taking medication to treat them." Hot flashes are "a significant side-effect of hormonal treatment," this team concluded, and drugs are available to manage the flashes, but "a significant percentage of patients do not find it as an acceptable option. Therefore, alternative support/educational interventions should also be considered to help patients better understand manage and cope with this treatment side effect. "

Question:

simion wrote:

I know the feeling. I get the willies when I visit my family. Can hardly hold a cup of tea.

Good one.

Response:

In message <Cjg9b.8108$4j3.7…@bignews6.bellsouth.net

, Smoove B

<to…@bellsouth.net

writes I have tremors also, but my doc diagnosed them as familial tremors.

I know the feeling. I get the willies when I visit my family. Can hardly hold a cup of tea. But also, being chronically tense, as many obsessional people are, can cause the muscles to tremble. That’s my experience anyway. — simon

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

From: "Mike" mikea…@nobody.net This is something that has bothered me ever since I was a teenager.  I’ve never been able to figure it out, so I thought I would post about it here. Anyway, I have this problem with tremors, and fine motor problems in general.  I first noticed it as a teenager, when lying on my side on the bed, propping my head up with my hand and arm so I could read my homework assignment.  I noticed that I couldn’t move my arm or hand smoothly without causing tremors in the muscles being used for that motion.  Subsequently I learned that this is made much worse when the muscles in question have been stressed (such as propping my head up, or carrying a heavy shopping bag.) Also, the more "strength" I put into the motion, the more exacerbated the tremors. As an example, imagine the motion involved with twisting the throttle on a motorcycle.  That movement induces tremors in my hand, particularly if I tense those muscles, or if they’re tired. Also, I’ve always had some fine motor control problems in other ways – my movements seem more "jerky" than other people.  Course, maybe I’m just obsessing over it (I have OCD, after all.) It doesn’t appear that anyone has ever noticed these symptoms, so I don’t want to exaggerate them.  It doesn’t really affect me, other than just making me curious as to the cause. I’ve done some reading in the past, and my symptoms don’t match Parkinson’s or other similar diseases.  The closest match I can find is the diagnosis of "Essential Tremor", which really isn’t a "true" diagnosis at all, but just a catch-all for tremors without any other obvious cause. Just curious if anyone knows if this type of thing is more common among those with OCD and/or Tourette’s?  I.e., could the same chemical imbalances related to these disorders also have an impact on fine motor control? Thanks, Mike

Hi Mike. Curious question to me ! My son is the one in the family with TS – tics only (and is now 22). But ET, Essential Tremor, runs in my family. My father has it, my sister, my brother, and me. All to different degrees. My dad and sister have very shaky hands. People have asked me if my sister has Parkinson’s due to her shaky hands. My brother and I have it very mild where you just see a paper shake if I am holding it up with  unsupported arms. My sister is now in a study with a neurologist who is doing research to see if there is a connection between ET and Parkinson’s. In fact, I was going to call him and see if he treats TS patients, as well. He is so wonderful! He dxed my father with hydrosephalus (sp?), water on the brain, when all other doctors threw up their arms and gave up. So no answers for you, but seems plausible about your theory. Jan

Response:

This is something that has bothered me ever since I was a teenager.  I’ve never been able to figure it out, so I thought I would post about it here. Anyway, I have this problem with tremors, and fine motor problems in general.  I first noticed it as a teenager, when lying on my side on the bed, propping my head up with my hand and arm so I could read my homework assignment.  I noticed that I couldn’t move my arm or hand smoothly without causing tremors in the muscles being used for that motion.  Subsequently I learned that this is made much worse when the muscles in question have been stressed (such as propping my head up, or carrying a heavy shopping bag.) Also, the more "strength" I put into the motion, the more exacerbated the tremors. As an example, imagine the motion involved with twisting the throttle on a motorcycle.  That movement induces tremors in my hand, particularly if I tense those muscles, or if they’re tired. Also, I’ve always had some fine motor control problems in other ways – my movements seem more "jerky" than other people.  Course, maybe I’m just obsessing over it (I have OCD, after all.) It doesn’t appear that anyone has ever noticed these symptoms, so I don’t want to exaggerate them.  It doesn’t really affect me, other than just making me curious as to the cause. I’ve done some reading in the past, and my symptoms don’t match Parkinson’s or other similar diseases.  The closest match I can find is the diagnosis of "Essential Tremor", which really isn’t a "true" diagnosis at all, but just a catch-all for tremors without any other obvious cause. Just curious if anyone knows if this type of thing is more common among those with OCD and/or Tourette’s?  I.e., could the same chemical imbalances related to these disorders also have an impact on fine motor control? Thanks, Mike

Response:

I have tremors also, but my doc diagnosed them as familial tremors. Brandon "Mike" <mikea…@nobody.net

wrote in message

news:uVOdnb4R7tgonP-iU-KYvg@giganews.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

This is something that has bothered me ever since I was a teenager.  I’ve never been able to figure it out, so I thought I would post about it here. Anyway, I have this problem with tremors, and fine motor problems in general.  I first noticed it as a teenager, when lying on my side on the bed, propping my head up with my hand and arm so I could read my homework assignment.  I noticed that I couldn’t move my arm or hand smoothly

without

causing tremors in the muscles being used for that motion.  Subsequently I learned that this is made much worse when the muscles in question have

been

stressed (such as propping my head up, or carrying a heavy shopping bag.) Also, the more "strength" I put into the motion, the more exacerbated the tremors. As an example, imagine the motion involved with twisting the throttle on a motorcycle.  That movement induces tremors in my hand, particularly if I tense those muscles, or if they’re tired. Also, I’ve always had some fine motor control problems in other ways – my movements seem more "jerky" than other people.  Course, maybe I’m just obsessing over it (I have OCD, after all.) It doesn’t appear that anyone has ever noticed these symptoms, so I don’t want to exaggerate them.  It doesn’t really affect me, other than just making me curious as to the cause. I’ve done some reading in the past, and my symptoms don’t match

Parkinson’s

or other similar diseases.  The closest match I can find is the diagnosis

of

"Essential Tremor", which really isn’t a "true" diagnosis at all, but just

a

catch-all for tremors without any other obvious cause. Just curious if anyone knows if this type of thing is more common among those with OCD and/or Tourette’s?  I.e., could the same chemical

imbalances

related to these disorders also have an impact on fine motor control? Thanks, Mike

Response:

Question:

Carol: I took Paxil for a year, then switched to Celexa. The latter had far fewer side effects for me. Have you discussed this with your doctor? Best, Anne

Response:

I have been on Celexa, 30mg, for 6-8 weeks now. I have not noticed any side effect whatsoever. I am quite happy with it. AnxiousCollegeKid

Response:

This is a just a "me-too" to SSRI side-effects. The zoloft and effexor I tried out caused nothing but problems… -Doug (remove "botizer" from email addy to respond)

Response:

Hi all, Having a great deal of difficulty with the side effects of the SSRIs, and also having trouble sticking w/them as a result. Which SSRIs do you think have the least side effects? Thanks, Carol

Response:

:Hi all, : :Having a great deal of difficulty with the side effects of the SSRIs, and :also having trouble sticking w/them as a result. : :Which SSRIs do you think have the least side effects? : :Thanks, :Carol Dear Carol, There really is no easy answer to your question being reactions to meds are so very individualized. One SSRI that quite a few are having good luck with is Celexa. However, there is no guarantee that this AD would cause you the least amount of side-effects. How many SSRI`s have you tried? There is also a chance that you just can`t tolerate SSRI`s. You might want to talk to your doctor about the Tricyclic class of antidepressants, they are as effective as the SSRI`s. Take care Jackie ~*~In Everything You Hope Or Do, I`ll Encourage And Believe In You~*~

Response:

Hi all, Having a great deal of difficulty with the side effects of the SSRIs, and also having trouble sticking w/them as a result. Which SSRIs do you think have the least side effects? Thanks, Carol

This is very much an YMMV matter, our reactions to meds are so individual. In theory Celexa is supposed to have the lowest side effects profile of the SSRI’s. You are not married to SSRI’s by the way, there are other antidepressants out there too (such as the TCA’s). Philip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

Question:

now, my doctor wants to take me off the effexor to see if it is the problem… i have already slipped backwards because of all this and new financial problems created by my ex— i am scared to death to go off the effexor.

Also, think about getting a second opinion on the drug issues from a psychiatrist. Bruce.

Response:

things have slowly deteriorating health wise for me… nothing deadly like cancer — i just feel dead.  i think my metabolism is running on empty. after a slew of testing nothing has been found yet…

((((((((((((((Donna)))))))))))))))) As I’m sure you’ve read, that isn’t one of the common side effects of effexor, but everyone is different.  Make sure you’re not taking any over-the-counter (e.g. St John’s Wort) or prescription drugs that might be interacting with the effexor. i am so disgusted.  all i know is, if this is how it feels to be 46 i’d rather be dead.

No, this is NOT how 46 feels!  There is nothing about getting older that makes us feel bad.  It’s the bumps in the road along the way that can drag us down.  But it’s always temporary.  Sooner or later we figure out what’s wrong and set it right.  Please hang on! now, my doctor wants to take me off the effexor to see if it is the problem… i have already slipped backwards because of all this and new financial problems created by my ex— i am scared to death to go off the effexor.

What dosage are you on?  It’s hard to guess because too little Effexor can worsen depression and with it fatigue, but it’s also a possible side effect of the effexor so it’s very difficult to even guess.  I’ve read that lethargy is not usually associated with effexor, so the symptoms and stress you are under sounds more like increasing the dosage might be more appropriate.  Or if the effexor is pooping out on you, switching to another AD drug like Welbutrin.. And with all that stress you’re under, don’t forget that alcohol can  worsen depression. And if you do try to stop the Effexor, remember to do it SLOWLY!!  Take several weeks at least.  The withdrawal symptoms can worsen fatigue if you don’t go slowly. i don’t want to fall down further.   i can’t, i won’t want to get back up.

Just remember that it does and WILL get better.  Not as quickly as any sufferer of depression would like, but it DOES get better.  So hang in there and keep fighting. Bruce.

Response:

I don’t blame you for not wanting to go off the Effexor. I have Addison’s Disease, and I don’t know where I’d be without Effexor. I tried Celexa before, which didn’t work at all. At this point I’m considering switching to something different, but I’m not sure if that’s a good idea. My depression has got much worse in recent months, so perhaps changing drugs is not the right way… What is your dosage? I’m on 150mg/day… Sincerely, Daniel in Tulsa

Response:

hello… and thank you for your kind words.  sorry i can’t reply to each of your messages individually, but i lost your posts when i upgraded to explorer 6 last night.  it was so nice to see so many names i recognized~ rj, bruce, ed p, cindi– she’s back  – and nice to meet jim. things have slowly deteriorating health wise for me… nothing deadly like cancer — i just feel dead.  i think my metabolism is running on empty. after a slew of testing nothing has been found yet…  i am so disgusted.  all i know is, if this is how it feels to be 46 i’d rather be dead.   now, my doctor wants to take me off the effexor to see if it is the problem… i have already slipped backwards because of all this and new financial problems created by my ex— i am scared to death to go off the effexor. i don’t want to fall down further.   i can’t, i won’t want to get back up. — ~i’m so popular ’round here i’ve forgotten my own name~ ASD Birthday Pages<http://www.geocities.com/asdbday/ April Love Pages <http://www.geocities.com/Broadway/Booth/9337/

Response:

Question:

I have been on prozac, effexor. paxil, celexa, and back to prozac over a 15 year period give or take a few years. and i was wondering if there is any way for getting over my depression, panic, personality disorder, and other things that i have, I dont want to be with this stuff for ever, how can i get rid of it….?

Response:

Hi and Welcome to the ng, I have been on prozac, effexor. paxil, celexa, and back to prozac over a 15 year period give or take a few years. and i was wondering if there is any way for getting over my depression, panic, personality disorder, and other things that i have, I dont want to be with this stuff for ever, how can i get rid of it….?

Are you in therapy now? Peace, Lynda — LyndaNP Reality isn’t the way you wish things to be, nor the way they appear to be, but the way they actually are. – Robert J. Ringer

Response:

I have been on prozac, effexor. paxil, celexa, and back to prozac over a 15 year period give or take a few years. and i was wondering if there is any way for getting over my depression, panic, personality disorder, and other things that i have, I dont want to be with this stuff for ever, how can i get rid of it….?

Have you given therapy with a really good therapist a try? Fiona — If we had no winter, the spring would not be so pleasant: if we did not sometimes taste the adversity, prosperity would not be so welcome.      – Anne Bradstreet, Meditations Divine and Moral, 1664

Response:

Yes I am in therapy. I dont see how just talking helps I get to feeling like all i do is cry. Its not like i always have bad things that happen all the time. It just seems like they get me down the most….. how come i dont get happy when good thing happen….Actually i have been to see several therapist…. and counselors….. and psychiatrist……. i just get the feeling like they just sit and agree with me. beckie — "If you have a candle, the light won’t glow any dimmer if I light yours off of mine." (STEVEN TYLER) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Are you in therapy now? Peace, Lynda — LyndaNP Reality isn’t the way you wish things to be, nor the way they appear to be, but the way they actually are. – Robert J. Ringer Have you given therapy with a really good therapist a try? Fiona — If we had no winter, the spring would not be so pleasant: if we did not sometimes taste the adversity, prosperity would not be so welcome.      – Anne Bradstreet, Meditations Divine and Moral, 1664

Response:

Hi again, Yes I am in therapy. I dont see how just talking helps I get to feeling like all i do is cry. Its not like i always have bad things that happen all the time. It just seems like they get me down the most….. how come i dont get happy when good thing happen….Actually i have been to see several therapist…. and counselors….. and psychiatrist……. i just get the feeling like they just sit and agree with me. beckie

 Beckie I am so very sorry. Email me anytime. Peace, Lynda

Response:

Question:

Anne Haas wrote:

. I wish some talk show host would do a program called "MOVE THE HELL ON, THAT WAS 20 YEARS AGO." Anne Anne, you are my hero also.  I wanna be like you when (if) I ever grow up.  :-)

DITTO!  :-) Joanne

Response:

Indyguy1 wrote:

Well, then you haven’t been reading all the threads. I posted a number of time times prior to the Jennifer thread in the past week or so. In fact Anne R asked me a week or so ago where the heck I’d been.

Well, I did. I don’t know where this bit about you being a troll got started, but I personally have gotten quite a bit out of your posts in the past. I did think you were a little harsh to Jennifer there, she’s in a tough situation and dont’ forget she’s very young too. I remember being in love at 22, I’d go back there in a second! But I’ve also learned a lot of very tough things in these 28-33 years, and a LOT of them I didn’t know and wouldn’t have accepted at the beginning of my relationship. Some people arent’ ready to give up the pain. But I never thought of you as a troll… is somebody saying I did? Is that why my name came up? I was glad you were back when you started posting again! Anne

Response:

Anne wrote:

Indyguy1 wrote: Well, then you haven’t been reading all the threads. I posted a number of time times prior to the Jennifer thread in the past week or so. In fact Anne R asked me a week or so ago where the heck I’d been. Well, I did.

Thanks for backing me up.:)  I don’t know where this bit about you being a troll got started,

but I personally have gotten quite a bit out of your posts in the past.

Thank you and I from yours.:) Not to mention a number of belly laughs! You are one funny lady!  I did think

you were a little harsh to Jennifer there,

I agree and I did apologize.  she’s in a tough situation and dont’ forget

she’s very young too. I remember being in love at 22, I’d go back there in a second!

LOL I should be so lucky to be able to remember that far aback.:)  But

I’ve also learned a lot of very tough things in these 28-33 years, and a LOT of them I didn’t know and wouldn’t have accepted at the beginning of my

relationship.

Some people arent’ ready to give up the pain.

How true.

But I never thought of you as a troll… is somebody saying I did?

No. Apparently lil and Geri were discussing that I was most likely a troll. I guess lil also brought it up at Shay’s baby shower.  Is that

why my name came up?

No *I* brought up your name as I knew you would remember I had posted prior to the infamous Jennifer thread. Lil had thought I had not posted in a long while and felt I caused some sort of riff between her and Merrie and then wasn’t around again until this Jennifer thing. Leading her to asssume I was a troll. I was glad you were back when you started posting again! Thanks for saying that Anne. Indy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Anne

Response:

I, for one, have a HUGE problem with this.  When Mike and I were having problems, you could have never, ever, ever convinced me that Tori was better off with a f— up for a dad and a mother who did everything.  I was a single parent in a two parent home.  When he told me that he’d give up his parental rights in order NOT to pay CS, I was so thrilled!  I’d have gone with that deal in a heart beat! I was NOT going to stay in a marriage where I was cussed out daily, told that HIS son was perfect and it was ME that had the problem, one night I had a boot shoved in my face because MY dog chewed it up.  I can remember another night I was sick and asked Mike to let Tori lie with him for a minute.  I’m in the bathroom throwing up, Tori’s crying – and he’s yelling at her for crying! Yeah, this is a marriage I would have stayed in for my child’s sake.  Don’t think so.  My daughter would have been better off without the father, thank you very much. Of course, since Mike has gotten his act together, Tori likes the father he’s become and Mike has realized that everyone making excuses for his son has given him a reason NOT to accept responsibility for his problems (hence, the running away because he got caught with drugs – it’s easier to run than deal with the consequences). Unfortunately, my SS had 13 1/2 years to have everyone feel sorry for him and justify WHY he shouldn’t have to face consequences for his actions. Lying?  Oh, that’s just him – he lies so much, I don’t think he knows how to tell the truth any more.  Stealing?  Oh, no, he’d never do that. Yeah, we’re trying to work on the marriage, but between the son’s attitude, Mike’s parents attitude of we can do no right and SS can do no wrong, and the ex’s attitude of she’s a better parent – there are days I’d rather live in Alaska than continue this marriage. "Indyguy1" <indyg…@aol.com

wrote in message

news:20001019014520.00976.00000407@ng-fo1.aol.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

I think Brian has a copy of one of her studies stating that she feels

that

parents should stay in bad marriages for their childrens’ sakes.  (Unless there is domestic violence, child abuse or drug use.) From my understanding she feels couples should try their best to work out

their

differances for the sake of everyone, including themselves, in families. Do you have a problem with this train of thought, Geri?

Response:

"Wendy A. S. Taylor" <ccx…@coventry.ac.uk

wrote in message

news:8smkc6$fq0$1@leofric.coventry.ac.uk…

Well I have to say that I didn’t read anything offensive, or troll like in her post.

Did you read anything particularly helpful or supportive in it?  I didn’t.

It’s your perogative to killfile her if you want, but why say so on the newsgroup.

Um…because it came up in a conversation with Geri?  Did it offend you in some way I don’t know about?  Is there some new content bylaw on here that I maybe missed?

 Other people can and will make their own minds up about who and what to read.

Of course they can.  Good Lord, where was it I said that everyone should ignore her or kill her?  Geri said that she suspected that she was a troll and I commented that I thought so too.  I changed the subject because I was no longer discussing Oprah. Get a grip, hon.  When exactly did you become the newsgroup police? lil — "It’s hard when you discover what keeps you going keeps you all alone."  – Blue Rodeo

Response:

Anne Robotti <robo…@worldnet.att.net

wrote in message

news:39EEE01B.3E8E08C3@worldnet.att.net… I wish some talk show host would do a program called "MOVE THE

HELL ON, THAT WAS 20 YEARS AGO."

Anne anne anne anne anne – ROFLLL.

Response:

"rebecca" <justrebec…@yahoo.com

wrote in message

news:1pGH5.8713$ji3.197226@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net…

Hmm… lil, I always thought Al was pretty reasonable

Alan *was* pretty reasonable.  But his character wasn’t consistent. For instance, he was only more than happy to trash Enricho Suave for his comments, but before he left he jumped down our throats for the way *we* responded to him. There’s more, but it’s kind of hard to explain.  It was never intended to start a major discussion, I was just making a comment.  :-) lil — "It’s hard when you discover what keeps you going keeps you all alone."  – Blue Rodeo

Response:

Hey Tea, I’m sure I won’t be the only one saying this. Mediation..(and Vicki will correct me if I’m wrong, hopefully) Mediation is a fabulous avenue for parents like you, who are *able* to agree, and can set "looser" terms to the children’s custody schedules. However, if you’ve been lurking long, you’ll have already found that a large part of this group comes from situations that this would be impossible…and unfortunately the courts do have to have the end say. Even then, justice or fairness doesn’t always happen. So..basically you are correct, the system assumes there is a war going on, because if there is no prior agreement reached…that is the ground the courts see them on. ange In article <gKFH5.112147$47.1480…@news.bc.tac.net

,

  "Hilander" <hilan…@block.lightspeed.ca

wrote:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

"Indyguy1" <indyg…@aol.com wrote in message news:20001019014520.00976.00000407@ng-fo1.aol.com… But regarless of Wallerstien’s feelings on who should divorce and

who

shouldn’t, the results of her findings on how divorce and the way

parents

act post-divorce stand on their own. This is a valid point. My ex and I are not yet legally divorced [can't afford it financially

at

this time] but have been living seperate and apart for almost 5 years. We’ve both looked into doing it ourselves but are afraid that we might

get

something wrong on the paper and can’t afford [financially] to be

making

those kinds of mistakes only to have to do it again. What gets both of us is how the ’system’ is set up.  We do get along

fairly

well as people but as parents, we are both on the same page and have

no

problems.  The ’system’ however, not only assumes there must be a

‘war’ but

there is so much there that we believe provokes negative feelings when

there

needn’t be. We have joint custody and guardianship.  We do NOT like the idea of

courts

telling either of us when we can or can’t see kids because we have

always

worked it out verbally with no problems and we can’t imagine how

difficult

it must be on adults as well as kids if there is no flexibility.  Life

is

not static.  It is dynamic! But the papers we looked at default to one parent or the other having

’sole

custody’.  Why?  If we were ‘pushed’ into that route [through lawyers, family and friends] then I can see how it would cause negative

feelings

because your mind is then tuned to look for ‘negatives’ in one parent

over

the other as a parent.  Not healthy. At a time like that, wouldn’t it be better for kids if the system

helped

promote and celebrate the *strengths* of both parents and how those strengths could compliment and work well with each other as parents?! I don’t want a piece of paper telling me that ex can only see kids on weekends.  What if they have a weekday off from school and dad has

tickets

to the hockey game?  What if one of the kids has been invited to a

birthday

party on the weekend and doesn’t want to go away that day? While in some cases, the personality of the individual parents may be

a big

problem for the divorce process and/or seperation, I also see that the system and even societal attitude towards divorce/seperation pushes

people

into seperate corners of the mat when they might not have gone there

in the

first place. I don’t think seperation/divorce is bad for kids, however, the current process and aftermath as it is set up today I do believe has a

detrimental

effect on *everyone* involved unless they actively and consciously

work

around/against the system. Chat later, Tea

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

Response:

On Thu, 19 Oct 2000 01:47:52 -0700, "lilblakdog" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -<lbdcreati…@dog.com

wrote: "Geri and Brian" <gplen…@aol.comicrelief wrote in message news:20001019034446.05269.00000435@ng-cb1.aol.com… Are you a troll? Indy showed up just as Alan Moore and his wife disappeared (and, quite frankly, I had my doubts about *their* sincerity, as *they* showed up just as Enricho Suave disappeared).  She was sticking up for Alan’s wife by asking us not to use the term biomom to differentiate, because we *weren’t* mothers in any way, shape or form. She had a couple of serious sounding posts, one of which started something of a dispute between Merrie and I.  I couldn’t help but notice that *during* this dispute, Indy was nowhere to be seen.  When I was down in Tacoma for Shay’s baby shower, I’d mentioned that I suspected that she was just trolling. Her response to Jennifer/John Durden is the first one of her posts that I’ve read since, and her tactic has changed rather severely from the concerned great-aunt who doesn’t want to offend anybody.  So now I’m basically certain that she *is* a troll and will be blocking her posts.

Oh shut teh hell up. YOur ignorant McCarthyesque accusations are pathetic at best. STop trying to be a netcop. Loev, Poopie Pants

Response:

Geri wrote:

Do you have a problem with this train of thought, Geri? I don’t have a strong opinion about it one way or the other.  Are you a troll?

Nope. But I see you’d like to portray me as one, seeing as I don’t always agree with the way you see and do things.

You are rude to everyone.

Everyone? Hardly. Indy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

lil wrote:

"Geri and Brian" <gplen…@aol.comicrelief wrote in message news:20001019034446.05269.00000435@ng-cb1.aol.com… Are you a troll? Indy showed up just as Alan Moore and his wife disappeared (and, quite frankly, I had my doubts about *their* sincerity, as *they* showed up just as Enricho Suave disappeared).  She was sticking up for Alan’s wife by asking us not to use the term biomom to differentiate, because we *weren’t* mothers in any way, shape or form.

Uh, excuse me. I do not know the people you speak of. I don’t even remember much of the thread. But I do remember I did NOT say step-mothers were not mothers in any way shape or form.

She had a couple of serious sounding posts, one of which started something of a dispute between Merrie and I.

I don’t recall any dispute between you and Merrie. But then again I am not a constant on this ng. And if you and Merrie disagree or any other posters on this or any other ng it is between the two of you or them not anyone else. And anything *I* post about or respond to I consider serious.  I couldn’t help but notice that *during*

this dispute, Indy was nowhere to be seen.

Well hang me out to dry because I don’t check in here as often as others do. Geesh  When I was down in Tacoma for

Shay’s baby shower, I’d mentioned that I suspected that she was just trolling.

I thought trolls came in and stirred up trouble then left. I asked questions. I gave comments. I come back because of our nephew and the mess he is in. There are some here that I really value their opinion. You were one of them. You might want to check the 15 years hence thread and see the compliment I paid you, earlier this week or last week.

Her response to Jennifer/John Durden is the first one of her posts that I’ve read since,

Well, then you haven’t been reading all the threads. I posted a number of time times prior to the Jennifer thread in the past week or so. In fact Anne R asked me a week or so ago where the heck I’d been. and her tactic has changed rather severely from the concerned

great-aunt who doesn’t want to offend anybody.

I’m usually very calm in my responces on this ng. There was something that really bothered me about Jennifer’s stance on her b/f’s children, their mother and her role in the boy’s lives. Maybe it was her arrogance or the desire for her to see the boy’s mother out of their lives after only being their dad’s g/f for about one year, I’m not sure. But in the mean time I did apologize to her. Although from reading the way she responds to many of the good solid ideas she has been given it looks like she may not want any helpful sugestions, afterall.   So now I’m basically certain

that she *is* a troll and will be blocking her posts.

If you choose to block my posts, Lil, that is your perogative. But to think I am a troll is not only false but really less than I expected of you. Indy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

lil

Response:

In a previous article, "Hilander" <hilan…@block.lightspeed.ca

said:

<I don’t want a piece of paper telling me that ex can only see kids on <weekends.  What if they have a weekday off from school and dad has tickets <to the hockey game?  What if one of the kids has been invited to a birthday <party on the weekend and doesn’t want to go away that day? Then so what?  One of the things I stress with my mediation clients is that the agreement is for both of them, and that the separation police aren’t going to be checking to see if parenting time is going to go the way the document says it does.  The doc is there to set basic expectations and to satisfy the court that everyone has knowledge of the important things.  You can put it into practice **any** way that you and your ex want to.  Any way at all.  Total freedom to do that. See a mediator.  It makes divorce *much* cheaper, especially when you and your ex get along as well as you seem to.  Any competent mediator can put all the flexibility you want in your agreement. Vicki — Bring Dejanews back to life!  See the petition at http://www2.petitionsonline.com/dejanews/petition.html and sign it. Help bring back a valuable Usenet resource!

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Do these whining *adult* brats think they would have been any happier in a home where their parents were two miserable people who *should* have been divorced? Been there, done that, NEVER going back. One of the things I always promised myself I’d do for my children is have the strength and courage to get divorced if their Dad and I really couldn’t work things out. I made this promise to myself when I was *nine years old.* If kids need counseling to get them through the divorce, to help them cope, I’m all for it. But this Oprah thing is going to be another attempt to excuse these people’s actions as adults because of their pain as a child. I had pain as a child too, every- body did. I wish some talk show host would do a program called "MOVE THE HELL ON, THAT WAS 20 YEARS AGO." Anne

Anne, you are my hero also.  I wanna be like you when (if) I ever grow up.  :-) Anne H. "To the world you might be one person, but to one person you might be  the world."

Response:

"Indyguy1" <indyg…@aol.com

wrote in message

news:20001019014520.00976.00000407@ng-fo1.aol.com…

But regarless of Wallerstien’s feelings on who should divorce and who shouldn’t, the results of her findings on how divorce and the way parents

act

post-divorce stand on their own.

This is a valid point. My ex and I are not yet legally divorced [can't afford it financially at this time] but have been living seperate and apart for almost 5 years. We’ve both looked into doing it ourselves but are afraid that we might get something wrong on the paper and can’t afford [financially] to be making those kinds of mistakes only to have to do it again. What gets both of us is how the ’system’ is set up.  We do get along fairly well as people but as parents, we are both on the same page and have no problems.  The ’system’ however, not only assumes there must be a ‘war’ but there is so much there that we believe provokes negative feelings when there needn’t be. We have joint custody and guardianship.  We do NOT like the idea of courts telling either of us when we can or can’t see kids because we have always worked it out verbally with no problems and we can’t imagine how difficult it must be on adults as well as kids if there is no flexibility.  Life is not static.  It is dynamic! But the papers we looked at default to one parent or the other having ’sole custody’.  Why?  If we were ‘pushed’ into that route [through lawyers, family and friends] then I can see how it would cause negative feelings because your mind is then tuned to look for ‘negatives’ in one parent over the other as a parent.  Not healthy. At a time like that, wouldn’t it be better for kids if the system helped promote and celebrate the *strengths* of both parents and how those strengths could compliment and work well with each other as parents?! I don’t want a piece of paper telling me that ex can only see kids on weekends.  What if they have a weekday off from school and dad has tickets to the hockey game?  What if one of the kids has been invited to a birthday party on the weekend and doesn’t want to go away that day? While in some cases, the personality of the individual parents may be a big problem for the divorce process and/or seperation, I also see that the system and even societal attitude towards divorce/seperation pushes people into seperate corners of the mat when they might not have gone there in the first place. I don’t think seperation/divorce is bad for kids, however, the current process and aftermath as it is set up today I do believe has a detrimental effect on *everyone* involved unless they actively and consciously work around/against the system. Chat later, Tea

Response:

lilblakdog <lbdcreati…@dog.com

wrote in message

news:tyyH5.1009$sq4.23642@newscontent-01.sprint.ca…

Indy showed up just as Alan Moore and his wife disappeared (and, quite frankly, I had my doubts about *their* sincerity, as *they* showed up just as Enricho Suave disappeared).  She was sticking up for Alan’s wife by asking us not to use the term biomom to differentiate, because we

*weren’t*

mothers in any way, shape or form.

Hmm… lil, I always thought Al was pretty reasonable, and IIRC, everyone _did_ jump straight down his wife’s (Ginny?) throat for whatever comment she made. Go figger.

Response:

Tommorrow morning author Judith Wallerstien will be on Oprah tommorrow. Her latest book, The Unexpected Legacy of Divorce, uncovers many of the feelings children of divorce have towards divorce and the way their lives went after their parents divorced.

I think Brian has a copy of one of her studies stating that she feels that parents should stay in bad marriages for their childrens’ sakes.  (Unless there is domestic violence, child abuse or drug use.)   ~~~~~~~~~~ Geri   ^   ^      

 ’  ’ <

"There is no snooze button on a cat who wants breakfast."- Anonymous ~~~~~~~~~~

Response:

Geri wrote:

Tommorrow morning author Judith Wallerstien will be on Oprah tommorrow. Her latest book, The Unexpected Legacy of Divorce, uncovers many of the feelings children of divorce have towards divorce and the way their lives went after their parents divorced. I think Brian has a copy of one of her studies stating that she feels that parents should stay in bad marriages for their childrens’ sakes.  (Unless there is domestic violence, child abuse or drug use.)  

From my understanding she feels couples should try their best to work out their differances for the sake of everyone, including themselves, in families. Do you have a problem with this train of thought, Geri? But regarless of Wallerstien’s feelings on who should divorce and who shouldn’t, the results of her findings on how divorce and the way parents act post-divorce stand on their own. Gee, I wonder if the poor results of children of divorce that she followed for 25 years could be part of the reason she would prefer to see families stick together? Indy

Response:

Do you have a problem with this train of thought, Geri?

I don’t have a strong opinion about it one way or the other.  Are you a troll? You are rude to everyone. ~~~~~~~~~~ Geri   ^   ^      

 ’  ’ <

"There is no snooze button on a cat who wants breakfast."- Anonymous ~~~~~~~~~~

Response:

"Geri and Brian" <gplen…@aol.comicrelief

wrote in message

news:20001019034446.05269.00000435@ng-cb1.aol.com…

Are you a troll?

Indy showed up just as Alan Moore and his wife disappeared (and, quite frankly, I had my doubts about *their* sincerity, as *they* showed up just as Enricho Suave disappeared).  She was sticking up for Alan’s wife by asking us not to use the term biomom to differentiate, because we *weren’t* mothers in any way, shape or form. She had a couple of serious sounding posts, one of which started something of a dispute between Merrie and I.  I couldn’t help but notice that *during* this dispute, Indy was nowhere to be seen.  When I was down in Tacoma for Shay’s baby shower, I’d mentioned that I suspected that she was just trolling. Her response to Jennifer/John Durden is the first one of her posts that I’ve read since, and her tactic has changed rather severely from the concerned great-aunt who doesn’t want to offend anybody.  So now I’m basically certain that she *is* a troll and will be blocking her posts. lil — "It’s hard when you discover what keeps you going keeps you all alone."  – Blue Rodeo

Response:

In article <tyyH5.1009$sq4.23…@newscontent-01.sprint.ca

,

lilblakdog <lbdcreati…@dog.com

wrote: Her response to Jennifer/John Durden is the first one of her posts that I’ve read since, and her tactic has changed rather severely from the concerned great-aunt who doesn’t want to offend anybody.  So now I’m basically certain that she *is* a troll and will be blocking her posts.

Well I have to say that I didn’t read anything offensive, or troll like in her post.   It’s your perogative to killfile her if you want, but why say so on the newsgroup.  Other people can and will make their own minds up about who and what to read. Wendy

Response:

In article <20001018220913.15571.00000…@ng-cv1.aol.com

, posted 19 Oct

2000 02:09:13 GMT, Geri and Brian says…

Tommorrow morning author Judith Wallerstien will be on Oprah tommorrow. Her latest book, The Unexpected Legacy of Divorce, uncovers many of the feelings children of divorce have towards divorce and the way their lives went after their parents divorced. I think Brian has a copy of one of her studies stating that she feels that parents should stay in bad marriages for their childrens’ sakes.  (Unless there is domestic violence, child abuse or drug use.)  

You know, my mother stayed in her marriage for her children’s sake, for my sake. I unconsciously learned that I was responsible for my mother’s unhappy life. I heard about her sacrifice almost every day. It took me six years after leaving to realise that I was in a land of psychological torture, and I’m still dealing with the crap ten years later. If Wallerstein has a study stating that people should stay in unhappy marriages for the children’s sake, she’s shot herself in the foot. K**** — Quotes of a five year old girl: "I felt some wriggly things on my head but they were only my own two fingers playing with themselves. I thought it might be a worm."

Response:

In article <39EEDB73.246C…@ntcorp.com

, Karla  <ka…@ntcorp.com wrote: Gee, I wonder if the poor results of children of divorce that she followed for 25 years could be part of the reason she would prefer to see families stick together? I know that one of the flaws in the scientific method is that people tend to skew results to support their hypothesis…especially in the social sciences.  It’s too bad because the scientific method is supposed

The social sciences are very difficult to be scientific in because it is almost impossible to control extraneous factors.

to allow you the chance to examine data to see if your hypothesis is right or wrong, but because of the way grant money and other financial resources tied to "results," people now actively skew the data to support their hypothesis or risk becoming labeled as a non-producer and loosing financial support.

This is true even in the sciences.

Mark Twain said there are three types of lies: Lies, damned lies and statistics.  There’s a reason for that.  I’ve worked in marketing, I know that you tell the "professionals" what you want to prove and they find the data to support your findings.  

One of my favourite authors.

The main criticism I have read on this book (I’m on the waiting list for the book, so I haven’t read it yet) is that her conclusions are flawed due to unequal comparisions.  In other words, she’s not comparing apples and apples, she’s comparing apples and oranges and declaring that the apples rule.

I haven’t read the book, nor seen the programme, but I have done quite a lot of reading on the subject of academic performance and divorce This is quite an interesting URL:  www.prospect.org/archives/18/18mcla.html I know it is harder to supervise two children doing homework, on my own, and still make sure supper, dishes, etc. all get done.  I know that I can’t control what is being done at my ex’s, though this isn’t to say that he doesn’t care or try in his own fashion. After the counselling you went through, Karla, did they give any counselling/advice for you and your ex for co-parenting thereafter? Wendy

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I have been reading the threads started by Judith. I understand her pain and dissapointment because of her adult children’s actions. Perhaps by understanding more about the long lasting effects of divorce on children and how children may not be as reslient as some adults who have divorced wish to believe they are many step-parents, along with birth-parents, can understand more fully why adult children do and say the things they do and say. Not that I am saying Judith’s kids were correct in their treatment of her, as I don’t feel they were. Tommorrow morning author Judith Wallerstien will be on Oprah tommorrow. Her latest book, The Unexpected Legacy of Divorce, uncovers many of the feelings children of divorce have towards divorce and the way their lives went after their parents divorced. The people she speaks with and about in her books are now adults. She followed them from the time of divorce in their childhood into adulthood. I don’t know if steps will be addressed in her interview, but even if they aren’t, I’m sure this show will give all parents who raise or help raise children that have been touched by divorce a better idea of what divorce does to children and how the parent’s actions impact the children’s lives into adulthood. This might be worth taping if you won’t be home when Oprah is on. Heck, it might be good enough that your spouse and you should view it together! If it’s *really* good it might be worth sending a copy to your ex or your spouses ex.:) Indy (who already read the book and can’t wait for the interview!)

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Sorry Indy, but OH GAG! I know I’m going to sound just evil when I say this, but I’m sick of bending over backwards to understand the effects of divorce on the poor little angels. Sometimes people get divorced, sometimes people die, and I just think it’s a symptom of everything that’s wrong with our society that we coddle kids through this and excuse their most selfish actions by trying to "understand their point of view." Do these whining *adult* brats think they would have been any happier in a home where their parents were two miserable people who *should* have been divorced? Been there, done that, NEVER going back. One of the things I always promised myself I’d do for my children is have the strength and courage to get divorced if their Dad and I really couldn’t work things out. I made this promise to myself when I was *nine years old.* If kids need counseling to get them through the divorce, to help them cope, I’m all for it. But this Oprah thing is going to be another attempt to excuse these people’s actions as adults because of their pain as a child. I had pain as a child too, every- body did. I wish some talk show host would do a program called "MOVE THE HELL ON, THAT WAS 20 YEARS AGO." Anne – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Indyguy1 wrote:

I have been reading the threads started by Judith. I understand her pain and dissapointment because of her adult children’s actions. Perhaps by understanding more about the long lasting effects of divorce on children and how children may not be as reslient as some adults who have divorced wish to believe they are many step-parents, along with birth-parents, can understand more fully why adult children do and say the things they do and say. Not that I am saying Judith’s kids were correct in their treatment of her, as I don’t feel they were. Tommorrow morning author Judith Wallerstien will be on Oprah tommorrow. Her latest book, The Unexpected Legacy of Divorce, uncovers many of the feelings children of divorce have towards divorce and the way their lives went after their parents divorced. The people she speaks with and about in her books are now adults. She followed them from the time of divorce in their childhood into adulthood. I don’t know if steps will be addressed in her interview, but even if they aren’t, I’m sure this show will give all parents who raise or help raise children that have been touched by divorce a better idea of what divorce does to children and how the parent’s actions impact the children’s lives into adulthood. This might be worth taping if you won’t be home when Oprah is on. Heck, it might be good enough that your spouse and you should view it together! If it’s *really* good it might be worth sending a copy to your ex or your spouses ex.:) Indy (who already read the book and can’t wait for the interview!)

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I think the data is useless without the proper comparison – which wouldn’t be happy families that stayed together, but rather families that stayed together and should have been divorced. I think her findings are faulty.  How can she determine if the poor results of children are due the divorce rather than the bad relationship between the parents?  Where are the results of children raised by acrimonious parents that didn’t divorce?  How can we quantify the level of acrimony so that we can isolate that from divorce and be able to distinguish if it’s divorce that’s causative or the acrimony? Merrie Indyguy1 <indyg…@aol.com

wrote in message

news:20001019014520.00976.00000407@ng-fo1.aol.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

But regarless of Wallerstien’s feelings on who should divorce and who shouldn’t, the results of her findings on how divorce and the way parents

act

post-divorce stand on their own. Gee, I wonder if the poor results of children of divorce that she followed

for

25 years could be part of the reason she would prefer to see families

stick

together? Indy

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Question:

Ok what is with Zoloft? I am constantly on the bowel. At this rate I’ll be the next Twiggy! Is it my nerves or what? I have been on Zoloft (100mg) for five years now and I was alright. I never experienced this kind of cramping and explosion before! Since the increase of Zoloft (50mg) all I have to say is, "LORD HELP ME." Anyway, gotta run (you know where!) Zedexa

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OMG I wrote bowel instead of bowl!!!!!!! Guess what I have on my mind! Red Faced and Cramped, Zedexa

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ok what is with Zoloft? I am constantly on the bowel. At this rate I’ll be the next Twiggy! Is it my nerves or what? I have been on Zoloft (100mg) for five years now and I was alright. I never experienced this kind of cramping and explosion before! Since the increase of Zoloft (50mg) all I have to say is, "LORD HELP ME." Anyway, gotta run (you know where!) Zedexa

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Ok what is with Zoloft? I am constantly on the bowel. At this rate I’ll be the next Twiggy! Is it my nerves or what? I have been on Zoloft (100mg) for five years now and I was alright. I never experienced this kind of cramping and explosion before! Since the increase of Zoloft (50mg) all I have to say is, "LORD HELP ME." Anyway, gotta run (you know where!) Zedexa

I’m so sorry you aren’t feeling well Zedexa!  I wish I could help you with the side effects of Zoloft, but I was only on it for one or two days, I think, and that was 5 yrs. ago.  I hope you feel better soon! Hugs, Di

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That’s always awful to suffer through, I’m sorry to hear your reacting that way!  Since you’ve been on the Zoloft and this was just an increase, hopefully it should clear up in a few days.  Maybe you have a stomach bug? The cramping sounds like it could be. Take care of yourself and drink plenty of fluids!  :) -Alan — Alan Derrick

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ok what is with Zoloft? I am constantly on the bowel. At this rate I’ll be the next Twiggy! Is it my nerves or what? I have been on Zoloft (100mg) for five years now and I was alright. I never experienced this kind of cramping and explosion before! Since the increase of Zoloft (50mg) all I have to say is, "LORD HELP ME." Anyway, gotta run (you know where!) Zedexa I’m so sorry you aren’t feeling well Zedexa!  I wish I could help you with the side effects of Zoloft, but I was only on it for one or two days, I think, and that was 5 yrs. ago.  I hope you feel better soon! Hugs, Di

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Hi Zedexa, I was very worried about this possible side effect, since my trigger on the anxiety was bowel related problems.  What I have done and been very religious about, is make sure I get loads of fiber in the diet.  I take care of this easily with All Bran cereal (you have to mix it up with another cereal you will actually like, or put other stuff in it).  I noticed a slight "loosening" of things when I began the zoloft, but have not had any D (knock on toilet bowl).  I’ve read that the bowel is a muscle, and in order to work it out, we need the fiber in there so it has something to clamp down on.  Maybe this will help. Mary

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – That’s always awful to suffer through, I’m sorry to hear your reacting that way!  Since you’ve been on the Zoloft and this was just an increase, hopefully it should clear up in a few days.  Maybe you have a stomach bug? The cramping sounds like it could be. Take care of yourself and drink plenty of fluids!  :) -Alan — Alan Derrick Ok what is with Zoloft? I am constantly on the bowel. At this rate I’ll be the next Twiggy! Is it my nerves or what? I have been on Zoloft (100mg) for five years now and I was alright. I never experienced this kind of cramping and explosion before! Since the increase of Zoloft (50mg) all I have to say is, "LORD HELP ME." Anyway, gotta run (you know where!) Zedexa I’m so sorry you aren’t feeling well Zedexa!  I wish I could help you with the side effects of Zoloft, but I was only on it for one or two days, I think, and that was 5 yrs. ago.  I hope you feel better soon! Hugs, Di

Response:

Ok what is with Zoloft? I am constantly on the bowel. At this rate I’ll be the next Twiggy! Is it my nerves or what? I have been on Zoloft (100mg) for five years now and I was alright. I never experienced this kind of cramping and explosion before! Since the increase of Zoloft (50mg) all I have to say is, "LORD HELP ME." Anyway, gotta run (you know where!) Zedexa

Hi Zedexa, Zoloft, like all SSRIs, alters the movement of serotonin. While its target is the small amount used by the brain, it also affects serotonin pathways in the body. Most serotonin is actually made/used by the gut (about 95%), another few percent is found in blood vessels and the skin also contains some, especially if its injured (burns/sunburn/infection etc). It should settle down. If you have upped the dose by 50mg in one go, then you might want to cut back and ramp it up more slowly. However, get your doc to check on this, it may be something else. Probably not, but you never know. And if it becomes an ongoing problem, then  consider changing to a tricyclic. But, be warned, they usually cause the opposite effect – constipation. Good luck                                               Zu

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