Question:

"Kevin" <sevenths…@hotmail.com

wrote in message

news:MPG.14c266efb4650b0c9896bb@news.ntlworld.com…

Thanks for that story TC – what a tough decision, but it’s obvious that you had to do it. Providing a frame so that two other adults can ignore the mess they’ve made is not much of a life – and not really fair to anybody.

Sigh. You’re missing something rather significant, though.  TC left because she was in a bad relationship with an abusive alchoholic.  She needed to leave that relationship for her own health, safety and state of mind, if nothing else, and it was impossible to do so and still salvage the relationship with her–for all intents and purposes–stepdaughter. I’ve heard this type of advice from many of you–three this week, that I remember; I think nearly *all* of you at one point or another.  And I *know* that your advice comes from your concern for me, and I love you for that concern.  But one of these days I’m going to be what appears to be one of those spontaneous combustion cases–they’re going to walk in and find char and ashes all around my computer chair and nothing else damaged.  So please let me re-iterate and get out everything that I need to say, one last time. And then I have to stop discussing this with you all, because it exhausts me to have to explain myself over and over and I just cannot do it anymore. You folks want me to leave a perfectly good friendship with a person who just happens to be my ex-husband because *you* think I need to.  I disagree. If DH was a female roommate, would you all say that it was impossible for me to have a life while living here with her?  What if she had a child that I helped her with?  My friend’s best friend is a single mother and so my friend spends a lot of time and effort helping her raise her son.  Should she walk away too?  Because she has no ties to this child and needs to get on with her *own* life?  Merrie once asked me why I would continue a relationship that wasn’t going anywhere?  I remember it because it seemed like such a bizarre question to ask about a friendship.  Are your friendships "going" somewhere?  Are they all leading to marriage?  Because if they are, I think you’re right…I need to get new friends.  All of your concern hinges on the fact that he’s my ex-husband and this doesn’t follow the traditional divorce pattern, so everybody wants to tell me that it’s wrong or unhealthy. I never got my copy of The Big Book of Divorce, but I’ll tell you something…I consider mine pretty successful.  I have everything that I set out to have at the time that I left DH–things I never thought I would have again.  And I don’t feel that I’m losing *anything* in the process.  So if you’re all just holding your breath, waiting for the day that I cut off all ties with DH and stepson for no reason other than "so that I can get on with my life", I think you’d better find a new hobby.  I *have* gotten on with my life and, thankfully, have managed to keep one of my best friends and a relationship with the child that I love. You folks need to understand and appreciate that I’m not going anywhere anytime soon…and when I do, I won’t be going far.  I’ll still be best friends with DH, and will still be special friends with my stepson.  Until such time that something unavoidable happens–like a new woman in DH’s life–this is the way that things will continue.  Because *I* want it to. And, currently, so do DH and stepson.  It’s unorthodox, and I completely appreciate your not understanding it.  But socially, right now, I feel 100% fulfilled, just the way things are, and I have no desire to change it.  Get me a job and shave five years off my age, and I’d be very, very happy with my life right now. I know an awful lot of parasites–people who’s only concern for me is my ability to do things for them.  I just had this discussion earlier this year with Merrie, when I was trying to end a friendship with a person I no longer valued as a friend.  I’m currently dealing with two others–one being Roomie–and I’m just keeping my head above water with them, trying to see if there’s anything left to salvage.  The idea of leaving a wonderful, fulfilling friendship for absolutely no reason is ludicrous. When I left DH, I told my brother that my mom was worried about what the family would say.  He turned to me and said, "Leslie, anybody who was at that wedding would *not* be surprised that it turned out like this."  And it’s true–I never heard a word from anybody at my wedding.  My distant family, however, all think that I *need* to go back to him.  My distant friends think I *need* to cut off all ties with him completely.  The people who really know me and have actually met DH and I are all happy that things have turned out so well and that everyone is happy with the current situation.  What do you think that says? I’m not one of those people who think that support means agreeing with everything I say and do.  You’ve given me your advice and I’ve read it, understood where it was coming from, and appreciated it.  But I have to do what’s right for me and, having explained that all before, I cannot keep going in this same circle. lil — "It’s hard when you discover what keeps you going keeps you all alone."  – Blue Rodeo

Response:

You know, it’s not a hive mind here.

Buzz.  (Snicker.)  For some reason, that line of yours cracked me up, Anne.  I was kind of wondering where you were – I like to read something funny everyone now and then on here. ~~~~~~~~~~ Geri   ^   ^      

 ’  ’ <

"There is no snooze button on a cat who wants breakfast."- Anonymous ~~~~~~~~~~

Response:

"Jennaii" <jenn…@aol.com

wrote in message

news:20010110193658.15383.00000587@ng-fu1.aol.com…

Personalities – they already know they won’t kill each other and can

accept

their idiosyncrazies.

Here’s a funny little story.  When I moved to Toronto, I moved in with a cousin of my mother’s.  She had a spare bedroom that she rented out to college students and it was available at the time.  I’d never met her before and she was *very* nice.  I asked her how much she wanted for it and she said, "Well, you just get to Toronto and get yourself a job.  Then we’ll talk about rent." The third day I was there, I found a note that said that my rent for that month was to be $240.  When I found a job, she would raise it to $280.  And if I started eating more than I already was (I hadn’t touched a single item of food), she’d have to look into that as well. We lived in an apartment and the kitchen was tiny, but it was mostly taken up by a large, full-sized deep freeze.  Everything was frozen.  I would buy groceries, put them away, and the next day I’d find them in the freezer. Bread, cheese, milk…she thought that things that were frozen lasted longer and so she took the liberty of doing such with my things as well. She never slept.  One night I woke up to hammering on the bathroom wall, which was the same as my bedroom wall and right next to my head.  I woke to find that she’d turned our blue bathroom into a pink one.  The woman had painted and wallpapered.  We had this frilly pink shower curtain and pink towels and rugs.  There were little wicker hats and flowered pictures hung on the wall.  I mean, this woman had been *really* busy during the night. She would turn straight from Jeckyll to Hyde.  One night she talked me into attending the Thanksgiving services with her and her family (which, as we all remember, is my family as well).  I really didn’t want to, but the kids begged me not to make them suffer alone, so I went.  After *several* hours of service, they decided to break before starting the sing-along.  Her son was taking the kids home, so I arranged to have him drop me off on his way. When we met up with my cousin in the lobby, she said, sweetly, "You don’t mind staying, do you Leslie?"  I told her that I thought I had better be getting home, and she snapped, "Well, how do you think you’re going to get there???" She hated men.  She was constantly taking messages from my boyfriend that she never passed on and would tell me that he was seeing other women.  Men were responsible for everything bad that ever happened–except in the case of her sons.  With them, it was all their ex-wives’ faults. The worst part was her cat.  The woman worked a full-time job during the day, a part-time job most evenings, and went away every weekend, all weekend.  But she had a cat.  Now before you ask why I didn’t just let it into my room, I deathly allergic to cats.  Other people’s cats don’t bother me as much, but I cannot have them in my sleeping area for any real length of time.  So although she left her bedroom door open and the cat otherwise had the run of the entire apartment, it would park itself outside my door all night and *howl*!  I needed to get my rest so that I could work in the morning, so eventually I got myself a squirt gun.  Pretty soon the cat could recognize by the sound of my bedsprings that I was getting up and he’d take off like a shot.  Of course, he always came back. One day I made the horrible mistake of telling my cousin that the cat seemed to have fleas.  Thus began the flea baths.  She would douse the cat in flea solution and then lock it in the bathroom (which, as we all remember, is right behind my bedroom wall).  All night the cat would howl and pound on the door.  "MREOWWWW!!! Thump, thump, thump, thump, thump."  The first night a really horrible thought hit me–I had seen that the doorstop had been taken off the door and I’d replaced it.  One of those spring doorstops, with the rubber end.  So I laid there in bed, praying, "Please don’t find the doorstop!  Please don’t find the doorstop!"  The next second I heard, "MREOWWWW!!!  Thump, thump, thump, thump…PE-TWANG!!!!!"  The bloody cat found the doorstop. Are we starting to get why I don’t want anymore surprise roommates?  :-)

And he is "fine" with this situation.

<smile

Well, I don’t know about "fine", but he knows about it and he’s still here. I think he knows that until he makes me a better offer he doesn’t have much right to complain! lil — "It’s hard when you discover what keeps you going keeps you all alone."  – Blue Rodeo

Response:

I think it’s possible to just be good friends with your exhusband and live together as JUST GOOD FRIENDS.   This would be, in my mind, a "roommate" situation.  And if that roommate had a small child I cared about I would certainly voice my opinion.   As I would if it were my nieces or nephews or SD.  And if I felt the child’s wellbeing was at stake I would certainly feel comfortable venting here about it.   And there are other benefits to this arrangement too: Financially for one.  (*I* cannot live on what I make.  Period, the end.) Safety – my best roommates were men who were just friends.  My parents approved because they didn’t want me living alone and they liked that there was a "man" around. Personalities – they already know they won’t kill each other and can accept their idiosyncrazies. Lil HAS "moved on".  She has a boyfriend.   And he is "fine" with this situation.   Please keep posting Lil, and hugs.

If you have no interest in helping me work through it or find other options, it’s probably best if you all tell me that right now.

"This time: gonna do it RIGHT!" — Bob Seger Jennaii

Response:

"Anne Robotti" <arobo…@fastpointcom.com

wrote in message

news:3A5CD921.74D7DE5D@fastpointcom.com…

You know, it’s not a hive mind here. Some people probably are interested

in

helping you work through it or find other options. Some probably aren’t.

If

you can get something out of the board or contribute something, great. I

think

you’re getting in trouble because you’re thinking that everybody feels or

thinks

this or that about your situation, which is not true. I mean, I think it’s

hurting

your feelings and you’re missing out on some stuff.

Oh no, definitely…I didn’t mean to imply that at all.  I know of a number of people who fully appreciate my situation, others who seem to straddle the fence and come down on whichever side seems to apply at the time, and then–of course–others still who think I’m dead wrong. I’m feeling a little displaced is all, Anne.  Actually, I’m feeling a *lot* displaced.  I don’t necessarily belong here anymore, and I feel it.  But I don’t belong anywhere else, either, so I stay.  But when it looks to me like the majority of the others feel that I’m in the wrong place as well, I have to seriously rethink the situation.

I didn’t know there was a specific issue you were looking for help with

right

now. Is it the medicine thing?

No, the medicine thing was a vent.  I was frustrated–very frustrated.  As I said to Melissa, I’d feel the same about any child that was being unecessarily medicated because the mother wanted a scape goat.  If I lived in a house, I’d probably walk into the bathroom, lock the door and scream and scream until I got it all out of my system.  As it is, I live in an apartment and I couldn’t complain about the idiots downstairs if I started making more noise than they do.  So, since you guys knew about it all, I did my screaming here.  Then I painted a smile on my face, turned around and said, "Has <stepson

had his medication yet?"  I keeps me from becoming a

shrew.  It makes my living arrangement a lot more comfortable when I’m not screaming to Rob about something that I already *know* is not really my business (although, as I said to Melissa, as soon as I feel it oversteps the line between unecessary medication and abuse, I firmly believe it becomes my business). And just maybe I was hoping for a comment or two like Jennaii’s, when she said that she thought that biomom should be medicated.  :-)

What if my advice would be, "Let SS’s parents deal with this and here are the ten reasons I think that’s what I would do

in

your situation"? Should I not post that? Or are you just asking for more

sen-

sitivity?

I’d like to think that we all know that I don’t come here to be stroked–I’ve never asked for it and I can’t recall ever expecting it.  Most of my favorite responses have come from you, Kim and Jane Lawrence, and none of you can be accused of being overly subtle.  :-) I’d *like* to know your top ten reasons for letting his parents deal with it.  Unless they’re all "IT’S NOT YOUR BUSINESS", that will give me ten things to chew on for awhile.  And in the end, you might very well find me agreeing with you.  It might seem hard to believe, but I’m not interested in making excuses for myself.  I’m hard headed and unbelievably stubborn, but I welcome having a flip-side of things pointed out to me.  If I didn’t, I wouldn’t be here. At any rate, my comment to Melissa was sort of generic and–short of someone dealing with Roomie for me–there *is* nothing in particularly I’m looking for right now.  But I will admit to being a little nervous about the next time I am. lil — "It’s hard when you discover what keeps you going keeps you all alone."  – Blue Rodeo

Response:

lilblakdog wrote:

The point to this post was exactly that.  This option doesn’t work for me. If you have no interest in helping me work through it or find other options, it’s probably best if you all tell me that right now.

You know, it’s not a hive mind here. Some people probably are interested in helping you work through it or find other options. Some probably aren’t. If you can get something out of the board or contribute something, great. I think you’re getting in trouble because you’re thinking that everybody feels or thinks this or that about your situation, which is not true. I mean, I think it’s hurting your feelings and you’re missing out on some stuff. I didn’t know there was a specific issue you were looking for help with right now. Is it the medicine thing? What if my advice would be, "Let SS’s parents deal with this and here are the ten reasons I think that’s what I would do in your situation"? Should I not post that? Or are you just asking for more sen- sitivity? Anne

Response:

"Melissa " <laa…@aol.comspamfree

wrote in message

news:20010110112100.12429.00000803@ng-mh1.aol.com…

Are you this involved with any of your friends kids?  Would you ever feel comfortable doing

that? No and yes…which is the reason I’m not.  I have one close friend who has children.  I was there from day one with the oldest–spending days holding and feeding and cuddling, so that my friend would be able to sleep or shower or do whatever it is she needed to do.  I’ve had an extremely strong bond with him from the first moment I saw him in the hospital.  I have all kinds of problems with the way my friend raises him and it’s caused some very ugly moments.  So I meet my friend for lunch when she’s working and stay away from them as a family.

If you and Dh are truly just friends than your role in his son’s life is alot less than your role as his

stepmom. Of course it is.  And I’ve adjusted it accordingly.

There are certain things that no matter how hard the are for you to let go

of

are not yours to deal with any more, and what medication your friend puts

his

son on is one of them

This isn’t true.  If the neighbors were beating their children, it would be my business.  When I have knowledge of a circumstance where I know that a child is receiving incorrect and possibly harmful medication *because his mother orchestrated it that way*, I see that as my business too.  I’m not saying anything to DH, but if I notice significant negative changes in stepson’s behavior, or find alarming new information about the drug, you’d better believe that I’ll be sending a letter outlining my concerns to social services.

If she were your former lover I would. You and Dh aren’t just friends but friends that used to be married.  the dynamic of the relationship is automatically going to change.  You are not merely friends you are friends

that

shared a marriage.  It’s not the same thing, and can’t compare.

No, *you* see it as not the same thing.  *I* don’t.  I don’t go along with the idea that what is one way for some people *has* to be that way for everybody.  I’m the only one who knows what sort of role our relatioship played in my life and the impact that it made.

I can almost guarentee that you would not have the same emotional

attachment to

that child that you would with SS.

You’d be wrong.  I have very much the same attachment to my best friend’s oldest child, as well as the two boys I’ve been involved with for the last 18.5 years.

Because Lil many of us don’t view your relationship with Dh as a

friendship. Again, this is not my concern.  *I* do view it that way.

you still live with him, still refer to him as DH and not DF, still think

of SS

as your SS and not the son of your friend.

So this is where the problem comes from?  Because I still refer to him as DH?  Well, I do it for sake of clarity, as I’ve pointed out to you before. But since it’s obviously still a concern, from now on he’ll be Rob.  But don’t expect me to use a child’s name or start referring to him as "the son of my friend".  If everybody wants me to switch over to "Chuck" or "Bob" or something, because it’s easier for everybody to deal with, I’ll be more than happy to.

The fact that your friends with you ex is not wrong and unhealthy, the

fact

that you two might still be playing husband and wife in some cases might

be

unhealthy.

GOOD LORD, where on earth do you get this idea?????????? The very idea that Rob and I play husband and wife is ludicrous…anybody who’s actually seen us together (Nikki, for instance) will be happy to back that up.  I *myself* have a hard time imagining what things were like when we were more than friends, it so far from my mind.  Rob is Rob.  I am me. We’re a better option for each other than living alone.  It doesn’t mean we have illusions of playing "husband and wife".  A good 60% of our problem was that I didn’t *want* to be married…I’m sure as heck not going to fantasize about it now!

 Your continued involvement in SS’s life, might be unhealthy for your own psyche.

I grew up in a neighborhood where I was raised by over two dozen families, as well as certain teachers and church members–not to mention extended family members and friends.  A lot of those people were from other countries, like Italy, Scotland, Fiji and the Philapines.  A couple of them were commune households of hippies.  One house was primarily First Nation. Some would play music or make crafts; others would just watch television and talk.  One even taught my friend and I summer school, when we were out for vacation. I consider myself very fortunate to have that kind of input in my life.  I’m not black and white–I’m rainbow coloured.  So if you want to tell me that putting an effort into making a difference in a  child’s life might be unhealthy for my psyche, you’ll have to excuse me for disagreeing whole-heartedly.  I can’t think of anything else in the world that’s more fulfilling.

No Lil.  What you do with DH and SS really doesn’t matter much in the

grand

scheme of my life, but when you post you have to expect that we’ll have opinions about all of this.

Yes.  And when I say that option doesn’t work for me, I expect people to understand that.  If they have nothing further to suggest, so be it. Perhaps there’s another option, though, that they can suggest. The point to this post was exactly that.  This option doesn’t work for me. If you have no interest in helping me work through it or find other options, it’s probably best if you all tell me that right now. lil — "It’s hard when you discover what keeps you going keeps you all alone."  – Blue Rodeo

Response:

The point to this post was exactly that.  This option doesn’t work for me. If you have no interest in helping me work through it or find other options, it’s probably best if you all tell me that right now. lil —

Whoa Lil!!!   I am so sorry that this has strayed so far from your original issues. It seems that the main focus for ‘a few’ has become re-defining lil’s relationship with DH, and SS…  I realize that this may or may not make a whole lot of difference to you, but I personally admire you for the role that you have ‘chosen’ to take in your SS’s life.   I would almost equate your role as a very active aunt, and friend. (not that it is my job to define anything in your life) it seems to be easier for me to equate you and DH as brother and sister when I read your posts.  We know that there are others on this board, like Jana who has a nephew that she cared for and had to deal with issues of her brother, and her nephew.  I did not ever hear anyone say that she should step out of her nephews life.  Then there is me with my Step Grand-daughter, where most were telling me I should try to get primary custody of her (although that has several difficulties in itself). It was never suggested to me that I should just abandon her to the elements. Maybe I am a bit more open minded than some (not all), because of my upbringing.  I was brought up around a very eclectic group of people, ranging from (what other people might call) dirty bikers (yes, actually a few of them did not bathe very often), stunt men, etc…  My mother was one of the few Women in the 70’s, and 80’s who actually owned and maintained her own Harley Davidson. To going to fancy balls in Beverly Hills, Movie stars, and some people in very high political offices.  My Aunt owns an NFL Football team, and my oldest sister ran for Lieutenant Governor of California. I would honestly say that what ever works for you, then so be it!!!   I have a best friend in my life right now, that has been involved with my life and family for the past 6 years, she has known my daughter since she was two, and she is known to all around us as Aunt ****.  I turn to her for advice on many things, even though she has never had children of her own I would be ’shocked’ if she saw something going on in DD8’s life and did not say anything about it, or try to do anything about it.  She has a ‘very’ strong connection to DD8 (and a very strong personality to boot), and I respect her opinion greatly.  There was a time when I was very ill, and I could not even walk to the bathroom my self for several months, and this woman kindly came into my home, and took over all of the things that I was not able to do.  I could not even pick my daughter up to give her a hug, and this lovely woman came in and gave a large piece of her heart to us and generously gave something to my daughter that she desperately needed at the time.  We have since have had many re-defining moments in our lives, from being friends, to her being my employee, and friend, to her becoming a primary caregiver to my child, to her getting together with a man who has children moving into a new relationship with him , gaining step children, having to not work for me anymore, and being friends again.  I miss our daily interaction sometimes, and I accuse her of ‘abandonment’ when she is particularly busy, but I would not change her for the world!!!  In many ways your strength, and caring heart remind me of her I can speak for myself, and I am sure that there are others who agree, when I say that I would be more than willing to help you try to work through your difficulties, and look for other options in your situation.  Nothing in life is ever black and white, besides I think I prefer rainbows anyway And just for good measure, because it sounds like you really need it I am sending bunches of (((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((HUGS)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))) )))))) your way!!!!!! — Victoria… ~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~ http://www.emerysdiesel.com ~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~ When you think you have no chance at getting what you want, you probably won’t get it, but if you believe in yourself, you probably sooner or later will get it.

Response:

<T.C.

wrote in message news:3a5a57e5.932923110@enews.newsguy.com… No offense taken on my part – and dammit, you’re gonna come to Nashville some time.

<<<<<<<<<BREATH OUT

I’ve been holding my breath since I wrote back to you.  I’m so glad you weren’t angry. And Nashville is *so* high up on my list of priorities, you’d be amazed. It’s somewhere right below "get a job" and just above "pay the Sears bill". lil  (who’s gonna go check out airfare prices again, just for fun!) — "It’s hard when you discover what keeps you going keeps you all alone."  – Blue Rodeo

Response:

You folks want me to leave a perfectly good friendship with a person who just happens to be my ex-husband because *you* think I need to.  I disagree.

Lil this has nothing to do with leaveing a friendship.  Are you this involved with any of your friends kids?  Would you ever feel comfortable doing that? I’m not saying that you have to even move away but you dod need to step back and let DH and BM handle this for themselves.  If you and Dh are truly just friends than your role in his son’s life is alot less than your role as his stepmom. There are certain things that no matter how hard the are for you to let go of are not yours to deal with any more, and what medication your friend puts his son on is one of them

If DH was a female roommate, would you all say that it was impossible for me to have a life while living here with her?  

If she were your former lover I would. You and Dh aren’t just friends but friends that used to be married.  the dynamic of the relationship is automatically going to change.  You are not merely friends you are friends that shared a marriage.  It’s not the same thing, and can’t compare.

What if she had a child that I helped her with?  

I can almost guarentee that you would not have the same emotional attachment to that child that you would with SS.

Merrie once asked me why I would continue a relationship that wasn’t going anywhere?  I remember it because it seemed like such a bizarre question to ask about a friendship.  Are your friendships "going" somewhere?  Are they all leading to marriage?

Because Lil many of us don’t view your relationship with Dh as a friendship. you still live with him, still refer to him as DH and not DF, still think of SS as your SS and not the son of your friend.  Also I don’t think that you would ever be involved with a friend’s child the way you are with DH’s son.

All of your concern hinges on the fact that he’s my ex-husband and this doesn’t follow the traditional divorce pattern, so everybody wants to tell me that it’s wrong or unhealthy.

The fact that your friends with you ex is not wrong and unhealthy, the fact that you two might still be playing husband and wife in some cases might be unhealthy.  Your continued involvement in SS’s life, might be unhealthy for your own psyche.

So if you’re all just holding your breath, waiting for the day that I cut off all ties with DH and stepson for no reason other than "so that I can get on with my life", I think you’d better find a new hobby.

No Lil.  What you do with DH and SS really doesn’t matter much in the grand scheme of my life, but when you post you have to expect that we’ll have opinions about all of this.

But I have to do what’s right for me and, having explained that all before, I cannot keep going in this same circle. lil

well then do what you were already doing Lil. Love, Melissa "I’m a born again Q".

Response:

"Kim Scheinberg" <i…@panix.com

wrote in message

news:93d1go$ebr$1@panix6.panix.com…

Lil, I’ve written and rejected maybe a dozen responses to this. None of them were particularly kind, though they all came from genuine concern

<grin

I wouldn’t expect you to be particularly kind.  And I know that anything you have to say comes from genuine concern, because you’re not the kind to waste your breath on people you don’t really give a rat’s ass about.

You have been here for years telling us you’re allergic to strawberries.

Almonds.  I’m allergic to almonds.  Several years back, when I was *finally* diagnosed with asthma, I was sent for allergy testing.  Cat hair, feathers, dust, nearly every kind of tree or grass, raw corn, raw peas, raw beans and almonds. Most of this was alright with me.  I hate cats.  I *loath* birds.  Dust gets in my way occasionally, as do the trees or grass, but I’m not dying to live like The Boy in the Plastic Bubble.  Corn and peas can always be cooked and I’ve been looking for a reason to avoid beans since I was a small child. But I told the allergist that almonds were not an option–I wasn’t going to give them up. Since he’d now mentioned it, I did see that almonds caused my asthma to act up.  Nothing life threatening, but an occasionally irritating problem. Still, I liked almonds and I wasn’t planning to give that up because he thought that I needed to.  I would just have to learn to work around the problem.  He could continue to tell me I have to stop eating the almonds while I continue to smile benignly and let it drift out the other ear, or he could accept that and we could talk about other solutions. So I still eat almonds because the problem they cause does not outweigh my liking them.  And when I start to cough, I give myself a shot of FloVent and carry on.

Everything else is just rationalization and bullshit

Bullshit, I don’t know about.  I believe everything I’m saying, but I’m not always the brightest crayon in the box.  Rationalization, sure.  Like I said to Martha, I have this bizarre notion that I owe more than a "no thanks" to you guys.  I’ve always been like that–I answer questions with a story. At any rate, the rationalizations have a point.  I’m not here because I’m hell bent on proving you guys wrong.  Ask my mom…nothing anybody’s ever said has had any real influence on how I actually decide to live my life.  I tell you that I won’t give up almonds for all the reasons you say I won’t give up strawberries and more.  But the fact of the matter is simple–I like them.  Likewise with DH.  So far that still outweighs the things that bother me. lil — "It’s hard when you discover what keeps you going keeps you all alone."  – Blue Rodeo

Response:

<filipi…@osu.edu

wrote in message

news:filipic.3-0801011124120001@164.107.35.122…

I think a lot of the feedback you’ve been getting has stemmed from things you’ve told us… here’s one item I believe you wrote…

Yes, I said that the idea of packing up and leaving was tempting.  And I don’t know which thread that was (I keep no record of anything that I’m not thrilled about DH reading), but the Paxil thread was very clearly labled a vent.  I have days where it would be easier to pack up and leave my life–I’m sure you do, too.  That day they stemmed from stepson’s medication.  Some days they stem from my bills.  My bills are *far* more difficult to overcome than my problems with stepson.  I could declare bankruptcy tomorrow–I have no assets to lose and I’d never have to worry about these bills again.  That’s the easy way out.  It’s harder to make a commitment to take responsibility for something that you took on with your eyes open.  So do I still fantasize about bankruptcy?  You bet.  Would I like myself much if I did it?  Nope.

I think people here understand those kinds of difficulties more than they understand the positives you experience in the relationship you have with your ex.

Exactly.  And as I said, I truly love you all for the concern that you have for me.  I’m just tired of feeling that I have to explain why somebody else’s solution isn’t right for me.  Certainly not right now.  Maybe not ever.  To be totally honest, with a little more fine tuning this kind of a living arrangement really agrees with me.  Anne was very close to the mark when she called it a marriage without sex.  But it’s also a marriage without guilt or encumbrances.  I’m free to do what I like–travel where I like, hang out where I like, date who I like.  So is DH.  And when we come home, there’s somebody here to talk to.  This works for me.

Don’t worry so much about explaining every last detail to all of us. Take what is helpful, and let the rest slide away to internet-oblivion.

Sigh. Therein lies the problem, though.  Sometimes it’s hard to see the concern and I just feel like you all are waiting to see who wins the break-up pool. And private e-mails are so much more difficult to ignore than posts, because they’re right there in your face from people that you love and who you know care about what happens to you.  And "thanks, but no," doesn’t seem to cut it as a response–especially when people have trusted you with their own painful history as an example. lil — "It’s hard when you discover what keeps you going keeps you all alone."  – Blue Rodeo

Response:

"lilblakdog" <lbdcreati…@dog.com

writes You folks want me to leave a perfectly good friendship with a person who just happens to be my ex-husband because *you* think I need to.  I disagree.

Lil, I’ve written and rejected maybe a dozen responses to this. None of them were particularly kind, though they all came from genuine concern You have been here for years telling us you’re allergic to strawberries. You give us the details of every rash that occurs after eating them (most especially, I’ll note, on Halloween and Xmas). You relay agonizing details about the short-term effects these strawberries have, and occasionally wonder if they might not have long-term effects, too When we tell you in all manner of ways to STOP EATING THE STRAWBERRIES you remind us how good they taste, how much you enjoy them, how you’ve devoted years to collecting and perfecting various strawberry recipes. You’re invested in strawberries. You have strawberry bushes in your yard. You have a wholesale strawberry business you can’t afford to give up You’ve stopped eating them, you say. Now you’ve reduced your life to growing them and picking them and cooking with them and just enjoying the scent. They benefit your life somehow Guess what? You’re still having allergic reactions. Maybe you don’t wash your hands well enough after handling them. Maybe it’s absorbed through your skin. I don’t know BUT THE STRAWBERRIES ARE SLOWLY KILLING YOU Everything else is just rationalization and bullshit Find a new business, Lil. Grow a different garden. Get out. How many people need to observe this? How many of us can be so wrongity-wrong? -k.

Response:

Hi lil, I understand the frustration you’re feeling right now. But I think a lot of the feedback you’ve been getting has stemmed from things you’ve told us… here’s one item I believe you wrote:

I know.  But the only way to do it would be to actually pack up and leave, cutting them off completely.  And that idea is *soooo* tempting right now, to be totally honest with you.  I can’t think about this stuff, because it’s killing me.  The idea of feeding *my* child unnecessary drugs makes me sick.

It almost sounds as if you wanted to hear that it would be OK if you decided to just remove yourself totally from the situation. And I think people here responded to that. But of course it’s OK to stick with it, too, if that’s what you want to do. In fact, as long as you have the strength and energy and desire to continue it, it sounds like the input you’ll have on SS’s life will be an incredibly positive influence. It could become difficult at times, because as a step, you’re at the mercy of the bioparents’ wishes. And I think people here understand those kinds of difficulties more than they understand the positives you experience in the relationship you have with your ex. Don’t worry so much about explaining every last detail to all of us. Take what is helpful, and let the rest slide away to internet-oblivion. All the best, Martha In article <2L566.2705$O8.32…@newscontent-01.sprint.ca

, "lilblakdog"

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -<lbdcreati…@dog.com

wrote: Sigh. You’re missing something rather significant, though.  TC left because she was in a bad relationship with an abusive alchoholic.  She needed to leave that relationship for her own health, safety and state of mind, if nothing else, and it was impossible to do so and still salvage the relationship with her–for all intents and purposes–stepdaughter. I’ve heard this type of advice from many of you–three this week, that I remember; I think nearly *all* of you at one point or another.  And I *know* that your advice comes from your concern for me, and I love you for that concern.  But one of these days I’m going to be what appears to be one of those spontaneous combustion cases–they’re going to walk in and find char and ashes all around my computer chair and nothing else damaged.  So please let me re-iterate and get out everything that I need to say, one last time. And then I have to stop discussing this with you all, because it exhausts me to have to explain myself over and over and I just cannot do it anymore. You folks want me to leave a perfectly good friendship with a person who just happens to be my ex-husband because *you* think I need to.  I disagree. If DH was a female roommate, would you all say that it was impossible for me to have a life while living here with her?  What if she had a child that I helped her with?  My friend’s best friend is a single mother and so my friend spends a lot of time and effort helping her raise her son.  Should she walk away too?  Because she has no ties to this child and needs to get on with her *own* life?  Merrie once asked me why I would continue a relationship that wasn’t going anywhere?  I remember it because it seemed like such a bizarre question to ask about a friendship.  Are your friendships "going" somewhere?  Are they all leading to marriage?  Because if they are, I think you’re right…I need to get new friends.  All of your concern hinges on the fact that he’s my ex-husband and this doesn’t follow the traditional divorce pattern, so everybody wants to tell me that it’s wrong or unhealthy. I never got my copy of The Big Book of Divorce, but I’ll tell you something…I consider mine pretty successful.  I have everything that I set out to have at the time that I left DH–things I never thought I would have again.  And I don’t feel that I’m losing *anything* in the process.  So if you’re all just holding your breath, waiting for the day that I cut off all ties with DH and stepson for no reason other than "so that I can get on with my life", I think you’d better find a new hobby.  I *have* gotten on with my life and, thankfully, have managed to keep one of my best friends and a relationship with the child that I love. You folks need to understand and appreciate that I’m not going anywhere anytime soon…and when I do, I won’t be going far.  I’ll still be best friends with DH, and will still be special friends with my stepson.  Until such time that something unavoidable happens–like a new woman in DH’s life–this is the way that things will continue.  Because *I* want it to. And, currently, so do DH and stepson.  It’s unorthodox, and I completely appreciate your not understanding it.  But socially, right now, I feel 100% fulfilled, just the way things are, and I have no desire to change it.  Get me a job and shave five years off my age, and I’d be very, very happy with my life right now. I know an awful lot of parasites–people who’s only concern for me is my ability to do things for them.  I just had this discussion earlier this year with Merrie, when I was trying to end a friendship with a person I no longer valued as a friend.  I’m currently dealing with two others–one being Roomie–and I’m just keeping my head above water with them, trying to see if there’s anything left to salvage.  The idea of leaving a wonderful, fulfilling friendship for absolutely no reason is ludicrous. When I left DH, I told my brother that my mom was worried about what the family would say.  He turned to me and said, "Leslie, anybody who was at that wedding would *not* be surprised that it turned out like this."  And it’s true–I never heard a word from anybody at my wedding.  My distant family, however, all think that I *need* to go back to him.  My distant friends think I *need* to cut off all ties with him completely.  The people who really know me and have actually met DH and I are all happy that things have turned out so well and that everyone is happy with the current situation.  What do you think that says? I’m not one of those people who think that support means agreeing with everything I say and do.  You’ve given me your advice and I’ve read it, understood where it was coming from, and appreciated it.  But I have to do what’s right for me and, having explained that all before, I cannot keep going in this same circle. lil — "It’s hard when you discover what keeps you going keeps you all alone."  – Blue Rodeo

Response:

Okay, so the medication is really just the tip of a rather jagged iceberg. I’m noticing some things in the past year that really have me concerned. And yeah, I know…it’s none of my business.  But they’ve still got me concerned. They seem to have begun around the time Nikki came to visit.  Why that would trigger a problem, I’m not sure…although biomom was *livid* that Nikki, DH and I stayed in the hotel that DH and biomom used to have their torrid weekends in.  And insisted that we didn’t introduce Nikki to her (even though she didn’t even bother to come out of the back of the house when we arrived), so that she felt like a second-class citizen in her own home). *And* stepson was full of "Nikki did this" and "Nikki did that" when he got home.  Anyhow, it seemed to have brought out all her anger at DH leaving her and marrying me (*years* in between, but nonetheless…). Less than a week later, she decided to pull DH’s spring visitation at the last minute.  We didn’t see him again for over a month.  I don’t know what was said when DH had stepson phone her during our camping trip, but he was in tears for hours afterward…then she tried to cut our vacation short. And yes, there were extenuating circumstances, but she was still *really* put out that DH wouldn’t rush him home immediately upon her request.  And I think she was even more angry that it was stepson himself who decided that he’d prefer to camp…I don’t think she ever expected that he’d one day choose us over her.  She refused to let us have him for Halloween.  For *some* reason (DH says it was his idea, but it doesn’t fit his profile and *does* fit hers), we didn’t see stepson on Christmas.  And our "half of vacation" was whittled down to the three days of New Year’s weekend.  She called on the second day, during dinner, and wanted to talk to stepson.  He told her he was eating but she still had him on the phone for nearly twenty minutes–wanting to know what he got for Christmas, what he was doing, where he slept, WHERE DH AND I SLEPT (at which point I very nearly took the phone away from him and hung it up, and *will* the next time), etc.  Then she told DH she wanted him to call her back at midnight.  She saw him the day before and was seeing him again the next day…I don’t get the point.  This was supposed to be DH’s weekend (one of only *four* in the past year), and yet it seemed to revolve around her. I know she’s been furious that DH won’t rush to her side anymore, whenever she screams crisis.  I’m sure she thought that DH would want to attend her father’s funeral, and asking him to come home would just seem obvious.  The medication just seems to be one more attention grabber–like the eurology testing and the zillions of trips to the emergency room.  But I feel like we’re poisoning him against our will (and yes, it is "us", because DH doesn’t remember to give him the medication).  And she behaves as though she’s put one over on us.  She hands DH the medication with a smug look on her face and practically *dares* him to challenge her.  And the fact that DH *doesn’t* makes my blood run even colder.  How can a man who cares so much do so little??? I’ve cried over this.  I’ve lost sleep.  I’ve thrown up.  I feel like throwing up just writing about it.  Sometimes I wonder why she doesn’t just put a bullet to his head, so that she and DH can "share" in their grief.  I honestly don’t know what kind of a life he’ll have otherwise.  She resents his making his own decisions if it doesn’t work in her favor.  Any time DH doesn’t do exactly as she wants, she does something more to stepson.  This time it’s anti-depressants.  Next time will it be a labotomy, like Frances Farmer?  I don’t know where it all ends.  And stepson’s nothing more to her than a voodoo doll she can hug one minute and stick a pin into the next. But what do I do?  Walk away?  It would help me, but what will it do to stepson?  How can I punish him for something his mother is doing?  He needs all the sane, rational support he can get, but it’s really, really killing me to watch this unfold.  I feel like picking him up and running as far and fast as possible–away from both of his screwy parents! lil — "It’s hard when you discover what keeps you going keeps you all alone."  – Blue Rodeo

Response:

    I don’t know how Lindsay would interpret your past actions, but I suspect it would be beneficial for her to know that in regards to her parents – it’s them not her – that are screwed up.     It sometimes seems so obvious – but often not to the kid. Merrie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

I dream sometimes of trying to track down Lindsay when she is older. To try to explain to her why I had to leave.  Some day when she is old enough to understand it.  I still question whether this would be beneficial or detrimental to her.  Maybe some day she will find me again.

Response:

In article <3a54d380.505886…@enews.newsguy.com

, posted Thu, 04 Jan

2001 02:49:44 GMT, T.C. says… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

On Mon, 1 Jan 2001 15:30:59 -0800, "lilblakdog" <lbdcreati…@dog.com wrote: But what do I do?  Walk away?  It would help me, but what will it do to stepson?  How can I punish him for something his mother is doing?  He needs all the sane, rational support he can get, but it’s really, really killing me to watch this unfold.  I feel like picking him up and running as far and fast as possible–away from both of his screwy parents! Ok Lil,this may make me really unpopular but here goes… At some point you will just have to walk away. I lived with a man who was an alcoholic and had two daughters.  Their mother was a bona-fide wacko – she’d already been remarried twice when I came on the scene (the girls were 3 and 5).  I was the sanest person in their lives and the oldest child, Lindsay and I developed a very close, very special bond.  Lindsay’s mother was intimidated by the child’s intelligence and either degraded her or ignored her – I encouraged her to grow and develop her intelligence.  I tried to instill self confidence in her, tried to nurture her, tried to help her as best I could. She was 8 the day I walked out the door.  I *had* to go.  I could no longer live with a man that was co-dependent, emotionally abusive, and becoming physically abusive.  I could no longer support him financially while at the same time post-poning my own education and growth.  *I* had to go.  I had to go for *me*. I will never forget Lindsay standing on the front porch screaming for me not to leave.  I still cry when I think about it. A few years later I met DH – I’d sworn I would never get involved with another man with kids.  But he got to me.  I had to have him and I’ve never regretted marrying him.  But I wouldn’t have him, I wouldn’t have grown into the person I am, I wouldn’t have *finally* found happiness if I had stayed in a bad relationship for a child that wasn’t mine.   It crossed my mind several times over the years to try to contact Lindsay.  She found me once when I moved to Nashville and we talked for a short time on the phone.  But it was better that I stayed silent for the most part.  I could only cause her more pain as I couldn’t be there for her on a regular basis.  I couldn’t help her.  I saw her father last year and he told me that she was in a treatment center. She was having emotional problems.  He lost custody after I left – he couldn’t hold it together without me, or he chose not to.  It was easier to blame me for leaving.  Her mother continued with her wacky behavior and she eventually lost *both* girls, the younger is living with her paternal grandmother (a good woman, I might add, despite the fact that she *hates* me).  It hurt me to hear about what happened to them, but I had done everything I could.  It boiled down to the fact that I was not a parent, I had no say in their lives.  And, no matter how much I wanted to, I could not take them with me.  I could not sacrifice my future and the future of my as-yet-to-be-born children. I dream sometimes of trying to track down Lindsay when she is older. To try to explain to her why I had to leave.  Some day when she is old enough to understand it.  I still question whether this would be beneficial or detrimental to her.  Maybe some day she will find me again. Lil, you can’t change either of his parents – they have to change themselves.  It sounds like neither one of them is ready to do that. You, on the other hand, are making changes in your life.  You are trying to move forward and grow.  I think you should move on.  It’ll hurt, terribly.  And there will always be some regret – but you need to do it. If I were I your shoes, I would find another apartment and move out. Even if it’s a hovel – you need your own space and a break from this situation. DH needs to stand on his own two feet, and he won’t do that as long as you continue to give him a place to ‘lean’.  He needs to learn to take care of SS himself.  BM shows no signs of changing, but she doesn’t have to as long as she’s got you to back her up as well. Cut them both loose.  Make your own future – don’t let them dictate what it will be.

Thanks for that story TC – what a tough decision, but it’s obvious that you had to do it. Providing a frame so that two other adults can ignore the mess they’ve made is not much of a life – and not really fair to anybody. Kevin — Quotes of a five year old girl "Life. It can be scary sometimes, you know, like when there’s a fire or it’s dark or blah blah blah."

Response:

In article <Llr46.9191$EX5.95…@newscontent-01.sprint.ca

, posted Tue, 2

Jan 2001 13:04:49 -0800, lilblakdog says…

"Melissa " <laa…@aol.comspamfree wrote in message news:20010102121023.00467.00000871@ng-fj1.aol.com… Yes Lil, you are stressing yourself to the breaking point over a situation you can do nothing about.  You and DH are divorced, he won’t step up to the plate, BM will take advantage of it.  It’s going to happen.  There is nothing you can do. I know.  But the only way to do it would be to actually pack up and leave, cutting them off completely.  And that idea is *soooo* tempting right now, to be totally honest with you.  I can’t think about this stuff, because it’s killing me.  The idea of feeding *my* child unnecessary drugs makes me sick.

There’s something in here that keeps niggling at me. Something to do with relationship balances. It seems to me, Lil, that you fulfill a very specific role in the life of stepson, taking up responsibilities which normally would come from the parents. Is it possible, that should you withdraw from the situation,  - besides being probably healthier for you – that it would actually trigger off some latent similar parenting integrity in Biomom and DH which are at the moment your ‘property’? I have seen this happen, and it doesn’t happen quick. However right now, you could be in a way enabling them both to be complacent. There’s no need for them to change because . . you’re there doing the hard work which covers up their mistakes…. It’s a tough decision, because you would never know until after the fact whether it was right or not. Kevin — Quotes of a five year old girl "If I look for a long time at myself in the mirror I start to look grown up. It’s starting to happen now. I’m growing, like beans. So mirrors are very special."

Response:

"Kevin" <sevenths…@hotmail.com

wrote in message

news:MPG.14bc8b876f5e84259896b6@news.ntlworld.com…

Is it possible, that should you withdraw from the situation,  - besides being probably healthier for you – that it would actually trigger off some latent similar parenting integrity in Biomom and DH which are at the moment your ‘property’?

Uh-uh.  Biomom lives in total denial of what I do, and goes to great lengths to destroy any progress I make, immediately after I make it.  The only thing that my disappearing will do for her is that she’ll be able to continue as she wishes without anybody lobbying for stepson and what is actually best for him.  Biomom would be perfectly happy to have stepson live with her forever, totally dependent on her.  She has often seemed to me (her father’s death being an excellent for-instance) incapable of dealing with certain things without stepson being with her. As for DH, I can very nearly guarantee you that he will allow stepson to slip out of his life completely.  He had neglected all of his friendships to near death until I came on the scene and revived them.  I got them all into varrying degrees of health before giving up completely (due to a total lack of support on his part), and DH hasn’t seen any of them since we were married.  It was and is very much the same thing with his family relationships.  Without me–or someone else to fulfill my role–DH will be unable to have any real degree of visitation.  He works in retail management, and weekends off are few and far between, as are holiday weekends.  Any visitation he has will more than likely be spent in near silence, in front of the television, and they will slip further and further apart.  Biomom will, in turn, use this to keep stepson at home more and more, until DH becomes the typical biological father who shows up at graduation, weddings and the occasional birthday/holiday. Now, none of this is my business and I don’t lose any sleep over it.  I can’t be there to hold everybody upright.  What *is* my business is that I took on a certain role when I married DH–a role that was a lot more involved than most NC stepparents.  I take that role and the current reprecussions from it very seriously.  Stepson looks to me for nearly everything when he’s with us; my removing myself from his life and leaving him to whatever fate is waiting for him is not going to happen, unless I’m forced too.  *I* built this relationship, with all of my heart and my good intentions.  I haven’t committed to a hell of a lot in my life, but I’m committed to this.  I cannot simply walk away because it’s suddenly too difficult, or I want to see what biomom or DH will do when I’m gone.  After nearly eight years of studying both of them, I *know* what they’ll do when I’m gone.  The only thing worse than what stepson is going through now, and what more than likely continues to wait for him in his future, is for him to have to go through it without *any* outside support and wondering where in hell I went???  If biomom or DH want to instigate that and live with the fallout, that’s their choice.  But I’m not going to. FWIW, though, I don’t "parent" in the same way I used to.  I force DH to plan their day, plan their meals, and cover all expenses incurred.  I offer my opinion as a concerned friend of both DH and stepson (often rather passionately), but I don’t beat a dead horse.  I do only as much disciplining as is normal for an adult figure living in this house.  If stepson gets too noisy, I ask him to settle down.  If he’s touching something that I don’t wish touched, I let him know.  If he’s making too big a mess, I ask him to begin cleaning up.  But any of the heavy duty parenting is done by DH or isn’t done at all.  I have happily relinquished myself of most of that role, and enjoy being "just a friend". lil — "It’s hard when you discover what keeps you going keeps you all alone."  – Blue Rodeo

Response:

"C&HWood" <line…@in.epix.net

wrote in message

news:3a5253f4.30495413@news.epix.net…

A while ago on the list, someone talked about a "Circle of Control" where they literally drew a circle, and put everything they can control inside the circle, and everything they can’t outside.  Do you remember that – I’m a little fuzzy on the details.

<grin

I’m a dismal failure at "Circle of Control."  I’m of the opinion that *everything’s* in my control.  I’m not good with the idea that I can’t do anything that I put enough effort into.  :-) For instance:

Decide appropriate medication

I have stepson’s medical insurance number.  I still have identification that says that I am Mrs. DH…not that the doctor has ever asked for it.  I can take stepson to the doctor he sees here and say, "This is what he’s being given.  This is his history."  I could even bring in half a dozen witnesses, which is something biomom can’t.  And at the very *least*, I can get the medication changed.  I can get a letter from the doctor to biomom.  If I did that, DH would take it to biomom and say, "This is the new situation, based on the truth about <stepson

’s condition.  This time *you* don’t fight

*me*." DH will do it…if I do the legwork, as always.

BD’s attitude & activity with son & ex

I can badger the hell out of DH until he does something to deal with the ex. It’s worked before.  As for his activity with his son, that’s *always* been in my control.  DH won’t even plan lunch for the two of them without my input and/or approval.

Whether you work with SS in school

This one I’ve let go of anyway.  I told DH that I would help stepson if I had his and biomom’s total support and assistance.  I haven’t got it.  I won’t help.  I’m done with the annual blood, sweat and tears, trying to teach him the things that he should have learned in school, only to have him forget them again after he goes home.

If not, at least know that there’s a perfect stranger who’s sending you good vibes and wishing you well with your difficulties.

<smile

Thanks, Holly! lil — "It’s hard when you discover what keeps you going keeps you all alone."  – Blue Rodeo

Response:

Hi Lil, I normally just lurk here (for years, posting once in a while) but I wanted to reply to your situation here: "lilblakdog" <lbdcreati…@dog.com

wrote: "Melissa " <laa…@aol.comspamfree wrote in message news:20010102121023.00467.00000871@ng-fj1.aol.com… Yes Lil, you are stressing yourself to the breaking point over a situation you can do nothing about.  You and DH are divorced, he won’t step up to the plate, BM will take advantage of it.  It’s going to happen.  There is nothing you can do. I know.  But the only way to do it would be to actually pack up and leave, cutting them off completely.

I know you’re stressed, and it might seem like it has to be all or nothing, but it’s not. A while ago on the list, someone talked about a "Circle of Control" where they literally drew a circle, and put everything they can control inside the circle, and everything they can’t outside.  Do you remember that – I’m a little fuzzy on the details. It seems to me there is a lot that you can do (and are doing) for this little boy you love so much, but because of your situation, there’s a lot you can’t do, too.  And you’re stressing a lot over the stuff that you can’t actually change. For instance, regarding the paxil and other recent issues, you could put things like Decide appropriate medication BD’s attitude & activity with son & ex Whether you work with SS in school         all outside your circle of control.  Because they aren’t something you can control, no matter how much you want to, and stressing about them is *only* going to stress you, not change anything.   But you can put all kinds of things *inside* your circle, because you can do them.  Things like talking to SS when you see him, researching about whatever condition he is supposedly being medcated for, helping him learn techniques for dealing with it (if he has it – doubtful, I know) or ways to deal with his wacko mother (not that you’d ever call her that in front of him , help him with school & learning when you do see him, work on bettering and continuing *your* relationship with SS so he knows you care, and so forth.  And those are all good, worthwhile things, and thinking about the positive things you can do has *got* to be better than thinking about the stuff you want to change, but can’t. I don’t know if this making sense, I have my own set of "things outside my circle of control" and one of them is having my brain work somedays.  I hope you understand I offer this advice with the best of intentions and hopes that it can help you at least a little.  If not, at least know that there’s a perfect stranger who’s sending you good vibes and wishing you well with your difficulties. Holly

Response:

But what do I do?  Walk away?

Yes Lil, you are stressing yourself to the breaking point over a situation you can do nothing about.  You and DH are divorced, he won’t step up to the plate, BM will take advantage of it.  It’s going to happen.  There is nothing you can do. Maybe you should take an SS vacation fo awhile.  Don’t discuss it with DH, don’t even think about it.  Take some time to regroup. Love, Melissa "I’m a born again Q".

Response:

"lilblakdog" <lbdcreati…@dog.com

wrote in message

news:To846.8824$EX5.85869@newscontent-01.sprint.ca…

But what do I do?  Walk away?  It would help me, but what will it do to stepson?  How can I punish him for something his mother is doing?

Oh, {{{{{{HUGS}}}}}, Lil!      I understand how you feel.  It’s like being 500 feet away from an accident that is occurring and you can see it all unfolding in slow motion before your eyes.  You think that if the drivers’ of each car could just hear your instructions they could minimize the damage.  You realize they can’t hear you so you wonder about how you could run in and ’save’ the situation.  But you can’t.  It’s happening anyway and has already been happening.  Remember, though, that *YOU* did NOT cause the accident.  *THEY* did.  You can only do so much and then it’s out of your hands.  You’re still going to see the accident happening and you’re only human to feel ill and uneasy with being a witness to it all.      But, like a ‘real’ accident, emergency personnel must assess the situation and see how ’safe’ it is.  If it is unsafe for *them* they MUST make it so or they will die in the process of ‘rescue’.  Failing to ’save’ anyone else and throwing their own life away at the same time.      You need to make the situation ’safe’ for *you* first.  There is a strong impulse in you to help, but you need to come at it with making sure *you* are in a safe place first.  Otherwise, you just become another piece in the ‘accident’.      OK, I’m sorry if that advice seems as clear as mud.  I just hate seeing you internalize something that is NOT your fault and not something that you can ‘fix’.  You can only work with *you* in the equation because that is the only thing you truly have absolute control over.      I’m also feeling bad that the New Year has started off on such a bad note for you. Tea

Response:

"Melissa " <laa…@aol.comspamfree

wrote in message

news:20010102121023.00467.00000871@ng-fj1.aol.com…

Yes Lil, you are stressing yourself to the breaking point over a situation

you

can do nothing about.  You and DH are divorced, he won’t step up to the

plate,

BM will take advantage of it.  It’s going to happen.  There is nothing you

can

do.

I know.  But the only way to do it would be to actually pack up and leave, cutting them off completely.  And that idea is *soooo* tempting right now, to be totally honest with you.  I can’t think about this stuff, because it’s killing me.  The idea of feeding *my* child unnecessary drugs makes me sick. But that’s the problem.  For nearly eight years now, he’s been *my* child–with everybody’s blessing.  I was ravingly unsuccessful at bearing any of my own and that’s made him more than just my step-child.  I know that some day DH or biomom could decide that enough’s enough and I don’t get to see him anymore and I’m prepared for that day.  But it’s totally different to just get up and walk away from it voluntarily. When I think of doing it, it’s easier to imagine that I’d be able to amputate my own limb.  And that’s *really* a dangerous thing…I don’t need anybody to tell me that.  But this seems to be the hazaard of marrying someone with a child that you love–you can’t make yourself stop loving the child, just because you’re no longer married to the parent. lil — "It’s hard when you discover what keeps you going keeps you all alone."  – Blue Rodeo

Response:

It’s too bad we can’t force medicate your BM.

She hands DH the medication with a smug look on her face and practically *dares* him to challenge her.

"This time: gonna do it RIGHT!" — Bob Seger Jennaii

Response:

Question:

My left ear has been ringing off and on for the last couple of weeks.  There also seems to be pressure and slight pain around my ear.  I’ve had a sinus infection in the past on my left side that caused my jaw to hurt.  Is it possible that the ringing in my ear is caused by a sinus infection?  I’ve read up on Tinnitus and I am very worried about what I’ve read.  The folks who have gotten it still have it and there is no cure.  I have an appt. with an ENT in 10 days but am concerned that a sinus infection may cause permanent damage if not treated immediately.  Anyone have any experience with ear problems related to a sinus infection?

Response:

Yes- I have it. I thought I was the only one. On certain days, my ears ring off the hook and make me crazier than I already am. I find that if I take a hot shower, it relieves it somewhat. I keep trying to tell the doctors that I can "hear" all the fluid in my head but they just ignore me.

Response:

Andy, in my case, the ringing in my left ear is directly related to my sinus condition, also on the left side. On "good" sinus days, the ringing is low, on "bad" sinus days (heavy pressure and headaches) the ringing is very loud.  If you’ve had a recent sinus infection, do research to find out how you can return them to a healthy state.  Sinus problems are complicated and it seems  they’re very unique to each of us so the same cure is not the same for everyone. Good luck Brad

Response:

yes…i hear what your saying..i have been getting this horrible pain and ringing in my right ear for days now.. it comes and goes.. most of the probs with the ear canal is post nasal drip… i also get the numbing of the neck and stiff neck from it.. any one else out there get a stiff neck and numbing of the neck area off and on?.. but yeah man i hear you on the ear thing..no doubt about it..                Nate   (jersey)

Response:

when you "hear the fluid in your head, does it sound like a "squeaking" type sound or like someone is rubbing something in your ears.. almost like the sound of someone rubbing a balloon? it may sound crazy but thats what i experience…                please let me know a.s.a.p…!!!                nate  (jersey)

Response:

The noise I hear is a high pitched hiss

Response:

In article <s4fngl8tgs…@corp.supernews.com

,

  "Andy Alshouse" <aalsho…@opticalsolutions.com

wrote: My left ear has been ringing off and on for the last couple of

weeks.  There

also seems to be pressure and slight pain around my ear.  I’ve had a

sinus

infection in the past on my left side that caused my jaw to hurt.  Is

it

possible that the ringing in my ear is caused by a sinus infection?

I’ve

read up on Tinnitus and I am very worried about what I’ve read.  The

folks

who have gotten it still have it and there is no cure.  I have an

ay cause

permanent damage if not treated immediately.  Anyone have any

I am just getting over a bad sinus infection with ear infection and I also have the hissing noise in the ears now.  I don’t think it will ever go away it is something one will have to live with.  I bought a nature sounds machine and listen to that to cover the noise works well.  There is no cure for tinnitus, my husband has it too.  Just another thing to live with.  Luc…@aol.com

with ear problems related to a sinus infection?

— Re:  Serevent and Flovent.  My biggest problem is not being permitted to Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

Response:

Question:

Hello. I am a Canadian female, mid-40s, married, an at-home mother. I have diabetes type 2 since Dec. 1999, have suffered from depression for perhaps seven years now, and have been tentatively diagnosed with Bipolar 2 this past March by a psychiatrist. The doctor recommended I add Wellbrutin S.R. (150 mg x a day) to the Effexor XR (150 mg x a day) . I didn’t think that either meds were working, until earlier last week when my libido kicked in. (I was ‘neutral’, so to speak, for many months.) It was quite a pleasant experience for my husband and I. But then, within a few days, it’s as if my increased libido "overtook" me and I began to flirt (playfully, I would say, but with sexual overtones) with various men, men I didn’t even know, in a chat group.  Without revealing too many details, one of these flirty episodes turned out badly yesterday evening. I took this *very* badly, and it triggered an episode of self-injury, something I hadn’t done in over twenty years. Along with the seemingly never-ending tears, I began to scratch – using my own fingernails – my upper and lower back, my upper chest, my breasts, my waist and parts of my legs. This crying/scratching last over one hour, until my husband’s 2nd attempt to calm me down worked. I share all of this with you not to be condemned, but to ask if the oral meds I am taking could be responsible for (1) my increased libido (where previously there was almost none), (2) this urge to flirt with strangers, and (3) thoughts and actions of self-injury. Thank you for listening. — Yvonne

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello. I am a Canadian female, mid-40s, married, an at-home mother. I have diabetes type 2 since Dec. 1999, have suffered from depression for perhaps seven years now, and have been tentatively diagnosed with Bipolar 2 this past March by a psychiatrist. The doctor recommended I add Wellbrutin S.R. (150 mg x a day) to the Effexor XR (150 mg x a day) . I didn’t think that either meds were working, until earlier last week when my libido kicked in. (I was ‘neutral’, so to speak, for many months.) It was quite a pleasant experience for my husband and I. But then, within a few days, it’s as if my increased libido "overtook" me and I began to flirt (playfully, I would say, but with sexual overtones) with various men, men I didn’t even know, in a chat group. Without revealing too many details, one of these flirty episodes turned out badly yesterday evening. I took this *very* badly, and it triggered an episode of self-injury, something I hadn’t done in over twenty years. Along with the seemingly never-ending tears, I began to scratch – using my own fingernails – my upper and lower back, my upper chest, my breasts, my waist and parts of my legs. This crying/scratching last over one hour, until my husband’s 2nd attempt to calm me down worked. I share all of this with you not to be condemned, but to ask if the oral meds I am taking could be responsible for (1) my increased libido (where previously there was almost none), (2) this urge to flirt with strangers, and (3) thoughts and actions of self-injury. Thank you for listening. To me, and I am in no way a doctor, it would seem that it is possible that the anti-depressants that you are taking are throwing you into a manic episode (it’s a common occurrence). If your pdoc thinks that you are bipolar then he should add a mood stabilizer into the mix. I suggest that you call him immediately and let him know what’s going on. Good luck Thank you for responding, Hilaire, and for your advice. I hadn’t thought of the possibility of a manic episode. I saw my case-worker today and she said the same thing you did, plus she told me to stop taking the Wellbutrin. She’s also scheduled me for an "emergency" appointment to see the psychiatrist tomorrow (instead of waiting for the one I had for June 4th) to see what type of med would be better suited for my condition. I’m feeling somewhat better this evening, but the need to rock back and forth and to keep my body in some kind of motion is still with me. As well, I am extremely tired as if I haven’t slept in days. But, at least I know it’s only a few more hours before I see the psychiatrist. Again, thank you for replying. No problem It sounds like you’ve got a good case worker. I also thought you should stop taking the Wellbutrin, but would never give out that advice on-line. Let us know how it goes. BTW – Wellbutrin made me wildly manic within a couple of hours of taking it for the first time. Hilaire WOW! For years I thought I was weird, have had many similar circumstances and at that time I was undiagnosed and manic. Whew, it was good to hear another woman stating that the same stuff happened with her. Definitely do something about the meds, you can’t go through life wrapped in gauze and afraid to talk to men for fear of the repercussions. Sounds like you have a very supportive husband girl, it takes a lot for our men to stay through the worst, but the best will come. My best to you and yours, Tanja

when taking wellbutrin,i was irritable(imagine that)so that my case manager thretened to resign.& i was flirtatious(to say how successful might be embarassing).what you’re experiencing might be related to medications,or you could be getting a bit hypo- or manic.I’m bd 1 but the effects are similiar,some enjoyable.Harry("not well")

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello. I am a Canadian female, mid-40s, married, an at-home mother. I have diabetes type 2 since Dec. 1999, have suffered from depression for perhaps seven years now, and have been tentatively diagnosed with Bipolar 2 this past March by a psychiatrist. The doctor recommended I add Wellbrutin S.R. (150 mg x a day) to the Effexor XR (150 mg x a day) . I didn’t think that either meds were working, until earlier last week when my libido kicked in. (I was ‘neutral’, so to speak, for many months.) It was quite a pleasant experience for my husband and I. But then, within a few days, it’s as if my increased libido "overtook" me and I began to flirt (playfully, I would say, but with sexual overtones) with various men, men I didn’t even know, in a chat group. Without revealing too many details, one of these flirty episodes turned out badly yesterday evening. I took this *very* badly, and it triggered an episode of self-injury, something I hadn’t done in over twenty years. Along with the seemingly never-ending tears, I began to scratch – using my own fingernails – my upper and lower back, my upper chest, my breasts, my waist and parts of my legs. This crying/scratching last over one hour, until my husband’s 2nd attempt to calm me down worked. I share all of this with you not to be condemned, but to ask if the oral meds I am taking could be responsible for (1) my increased libido (where previously there was almost none), (2) this urge to flirt with strangers, and (3) thoughts and actions of self-injury. Thank you for listening. To me, and I am in no way a doctor, it would seem that it is possible that the anti-depressants that you are taking are throwing you into a manic episode (it’s a common occurrence). If your pdoc thinks that you are bipolar then he should add a mood stabilizer into the mix. I suggest that you call him immediately and let him know what’s going on. Good luck Thank you for responding, Hilaire, and for your advice. I hadn’t thought of the possibility of a manic episode. I saw my case-worker today and she said the same thing you did, plus she told me to stop taking the Wellbutrin. She’s also scheduled me for an "emergency" appointment to see the psychiatrist tomorrow (instead of waiting for the one I had for June 4th) to see what type of med would be better suited for my condition. I’m feeling somewhat better this evening, but the need to rock back and forth and to keep my body in some kind of motion is still with me. As well, I am extremely tired as if I haven’t slept in days. But, at least I know it’s only a few more hours before I see the psychiatrist. Again, thank you for replying.

No problem It sounds like you’ve got a good case worker. I also thought you should stop taking the Wellbutrin, but would never give out that advice on-line. Let us know how it goes. BTW – Wellbutrin made me wildly manic within a couple of hours of taking it for the first time. Hilaire

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello. I am a Canadian female, mid-40s, married, an at-home mother. I have diabetes type 2 since Dec. 1999, have suffered from depression for perhaps seven years now, and have been tentatively diagnosed with Bipolar 2 this past March by a psychiatrist. The doctor recommended I add Wellbrutin S.R. (150 mg x a day) to the Effexor XR (150 mg x a day) . I didn’t think that either meds were working, until earlier last week when my libido kicked in. (I was ‘neutral’, so to speak, for many months.) It was quite a pleasant experience for my husband and I. But then, within a few days, it’s as if my increased libido "overtook" me and I began to flirt (playfully, I would say, but with sexual overtones) with various men, men I didn’t even know, in a chat group. Without revealing too many details, one of these flirty episodes turned out badly yesterday evening. I took this *very* badly, and it triggered an episode of self-injury, something I hadn’t done in over twenty years. Along with the seemingly never-ending tears, I began to scratch – using my own fingernails – my upper and lower back, my upper chest, my breasts, my waist and parts of my legs. This crying/scratching last over one hour, until my husband’s 2nd attempt to calm me down worked. I share all of this with you not to be condemned, but to ask if the oral meds I am taking could be responsible for (1) my increased libido (where previously there was almost none), (2) this urge to flirt with strangers, and (3) thoughts and actions of self-injury. Thank you for listening. To me, and I am in no way a doctor, it would seem that it is possible that the anti-depressants that you are taking are throwing you into a manic episode (it’s a common occurrence). If your pdoc thinks that you are bipolar then he should add a mood stabilizer into the mix. I suggest that you call him immediately and let him know what’s going on. Good luck Thank you for responding, Hilaire, and for your advice. I hadn’t thought of the possibility of a manic episode. I saw my case-worker today and she said the same thing you did, plus she told me to stop taking the Wellbutrin. She’s also scheduled me for an "emergency" appointment to see the psychiatrist tomorrow (instead of waiting for the one I had for June 4th) to see what type of med would be better suited for my condition. I’m feeling somewhat better this evening, but the need to rock back and forth and to keep my body in some kind of motion is still with me. As well, I am extremely tired as if I haven’t slept in days. But, at least I know it’s only a few more hours before I see the psychiatrist. Again, thank you for replying. No problem It sounds like you’ve got a good case worker. I also thought you should stop taking the Wellbutrin, but would never give out that advice on-line. Let us know how it goes. BTW – Wellbutrin made me wildly manic within a couple of hours of taking it for the first time. Hilaire WOW! For years I thought I was weird, have had many similar circumstances

and at that time I was undiagnosed and manic. Whew, it was good to hear another woman stating that the same stuff happened with her. Definitely do something about the meds, you can’t go through life wrapped in gauze and afraid to talk to men for fear of the repercussions. Sounds like you have a very supportive husband girl, it takes a lot for our men to stay through the worst, but the best will come. My best to you and yours, Tanja

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello. I am a Canadian female, mid-40s, married, an at-home mother. I have diabetes type 2 since Dec. 1999, have suffered from depression for perhaps seven years now, and have been tentatively diagnosed with Bipolar 2 this past March by a psychiatrist. The doctor recommended I add Wellbrutin S.R. (150 mg x a day) to the Effexor XR (150 mg x a day) . I didn’t think that either meds were working, until earlier last week when my libido kicked in. (I was ‘neutral’, so to speak, for many months.) It was quite a pleasant experience for my husband and I. But then, within a few days, it’s as if my increased libido "overtook" me and I began to flirt (playfully, I would say, but with sexual overtones) with various men, men I didn’t even know, in a chat group. Without revealing too many details, one of these flirty episodes turned out badly yesterday evening. I took this *very* badly, and it triggered an episode of self-injury, something I hadn’t done in over twenty years. Along with the seemingly never-ending tears, I began to scratch – using my own fingernails – my upper and lower back, my upper chest, my breasts, my waist and parts of my legs. This crying/scratching last over one hour, until my husband’s 2nd attempt to calm me down worked. I share all of this with you not to be condemned, but to ask if the oral meds I am taking could be responsible for (1) my increased libido (where previously there was almost none), (2) this urge to flirt with strangers, and (3) thoughts and actions of self-injury. Thank you for listening. To me, and I am in no way a doctor, it would seem that it is possible that the anti-depressants that you are taking are throwing you into a manic episode (it’s a common occurrence). If your pdoc thinks that you are bipolar then he should add a mood stabilizer into the mix. I suggest that you call him immediately and let him know what’s going on. Good luck

Thank you for responding, Hilaire, and for your advice. I hadn’t thought of the possibility of a manic episode. I saw my case-worker today and she said the same thing you did, plus she told me to stop taking the Wellbutrin. She’s also scheduled me for an "emergency" appointment to see the psychiatrist tomorrow (instead of waiting for the one I had for June 4th) to see what type of med would be better suited for my condition. I’m feeling somewhat better this evening, but the need to rock back and forth and to keep my body in some kind of motion is still with me. As well, I am extremely tired as if I haven’t slept in days. But, at least I know it’s only a few more hours before I see the psychiatrist. Again, thank you for replying. — Yvonne

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Hello. I am a Canadian female, mid-40s, married, an at-home mother. I have diabetes type 2 since Dec. 1999, have suffered from depression for perhaps seven years now, and have been tentatively diagnosed with Bipolar 2 this past March by a psychiatrist. The doctor recommended I add Wellbrutin S.R. (150 mg x a day) to the Effexor XR (150 mg x a day) . I didn’t think that either meds were working, until earlier last week when my libido kicked in. (I was ‘neutral’, so to speak, for many months.) It was quite a pleasant experience for my husband and I. But then, within a few days, it’s as if my increased libido "overtook" me and I began to flirt (playfully, I would say, but with sexual overtones) with various men, men I didn’t even know, in a chat group. Without revealing too many details, one of these flirty episodes turned out badly yesterday evening. I took this *very* badly, and it triggered an episode of self-injury, something I hadn’t done in over twenty years. Along with the seemingly never-ending tears, I began to scratch – using my own fingernails – my upper and lower back, my upper chest, my breasts, my waist and parts of my legs. This crying/scratching last over one hour, until my husband’s 2nd attempt to calm me down worked. I share all of this with you not to be condemned, but to ask if the oral meds I am taking could be responsible for (1) my increased libido (where previously there was almost none), (2) this urge to flirt with strangers, and (3) thoughts and actions of self-injury. Thank you for listening.

To me, and I am in no way a doctor, it would seem that it is possible that the anti-depressants that you are taking are throwing you into a manic episode (it’s a common occurrence). If your pdoc thinks that you are bipolar then he should add a mood stabilizer into the mix. I suggest that you call him immediately and let him know what’s going on. Good luck Hilaire

Response:

Question:

Hi Y’all!  Doing better today.  Been hungry!  That’s a good sign.  It means my PMS is stronger than my withdrawal symptoms!  I’m not suprised. Vivid dreams I can’t remember last night. Slept all the way through.  There’s really not much to report.  I was bouncing off the walls yesterday.  Kava helped, as usual.  So did yoga and an after dinner walk in the neighborhood. I have shin-splints.  Interestingly, I wasn’t tired last night until later than usual, (11:00), but when I was it hit all at once.  Nothing gradual or subtle about it. Life without meds may actually be possible for me.  It’s looking good so far.  After 15 years of struggle with anxiety, panic, and an assortment of other secondary disorders there may actually be some hope for a life!  I hope someone out there reads this and catches some hope for themselves. Be Well! PW

Response:

I’ve been following this thread and I’m glad to hear you’re doing well without meds. I orginally didn’t respond since I was never on Zoloft nor do I have PMS I’m curious. Was it easier to wean on or off Zoloft? I had a hell of a time weaning onto Paxil CR and after 3 months of it not working, I decided to forget about it but had no problems stopping it. BTW How’s Kava effectiveness? Do you take it as needed or daily? Oh and don’t be afraid to throw some of that hope my way Kevin… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Y’all!  Doing better today.  Been hungry!  That’s a good sign.  It means my PMS is stronger than my withdrawal symptoms!  I’m not suprised. Vivid dreams I can’t remember last night. Slept all the way through.  There’s really not much to report.  I was bouncing off the walls yesterday.  Kava helped, as usual.  So did yoga and an after dinner walk in the neighborhood. I have shin-splints.  Interestingly, I wasn’t tired last night until later than usual, (11:00), but when I was it hit all at once.  Nothing gradual or subtle about it. Life without meds may actually be possible for me.  It’s looking good so far.  After 15 years of struggle with anxiety, panic, and an assortment of other secondary disorders there may actually be some hope for a life!  I hope someone out there reads this and catches some hope for themselves. Be Well! PW

Response:

It’s definately easier coming on Zoloft than off, for me.  I was lethargic at first, but after getting up to 50mg it only took about a week to get level. The total time was about 3 weeks.  Then I had a LOT of energy.  Bear in mind that I was extremely depressed by the time I started on Zoloft so in contract I felt quite energetic.  The reality was that I was feeling level. Coming off is harder. I feel wired for about 3 days, then I level out for about a week, then I cut the dosage by 50% and start all over again.  Paxil was hell for me.  I was a vegetable on it, crying all the time – very depressed.  Kava works really well for me during those few days when i’m wired, coming off. It takes some of the edge off, though just enough that I don’t feel like being mean to anyone or running over slow people in my car! My anxiety is scary.  I get impatient, critical, irritable, consescending and generally unpleasant to be around at all before I become downright verbally violent.  I called someone a bitch on the phone yesterday.  True, she was being incompetent at her job, but it didn’t help the situation to vent like that.  I take the kava as needed.  I usually need it around lunchtime.  I get edgy when I get hungry.  Then again in the evenings when I want to wind down and relax if I feel too keyed up to sit still.  I haven’t needed it much lately.  I anticipate not needing it all in a month. PW

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve been following this thread and I’m glad to hear you’re doing well without meds. I orginally didn’t respond since I was never on Zoloft nor do I have PMS I’m curious. Was it easier to wean on or off Zoloft? I had a hell of a time weaning onto Paxil CR and after 3 months of it not working, I decided to forget about it but had no problems stopping it. BTW How’s Kava effectiveness? Do you take it as needed or daily? Oh and don’t be afraid to throw some of that hope my way Kevin… Hi Y’all!  Doing better today.  Been hungry!  That’s a good sign.  It means my PMS is stronger than my withdrawal symptoms!  I’m not suprised. Vivid dreams I can’t remember last night. Slept all the way through.  There’s really not much to report.  I was bouncing off the walls yesterday. Kava helped, as usual.  So did yoga and an after dinner walk in the neighborhood. I have shin-splints.  Interestingly, I wasn’t tired last night until later than usual, (11:00), but when I was it hit all at once.  Nothing gradual or subtle about it. Life without meds may actually be possible for me.  It’s looking good so far.  After 15 years of struggle with anxiety, panic, and an assortment of other secondary disorders there may actually be some hope for a life!  I hope someone out there reads this and catches some hope for themselves. Be Well! PW

Response:

Thanks for your input. I’ve researched and read about the liver damage.   Where do you recommend buying the best Kava? How much do yo take each day? DiA

Response:

Thanks for your input. I’ve researched and read about the liver damage.   Where do you recommend buying the best Kava? How much do yo take each day? DiA

DiA, I’ve been using several labels of an extract called Kaviar(TM). You can read background info on their product(s) at http://www.cosmopolitantrading.com/ I’ve used their soft gels; they’re quite good, but take a bit longer to get into your system because it’s a thick paste inside of a softgel (available from Source Naturals as Kava Gold softgels – http://www.vitacost.com/Store/products/Products.cfm?SubCategoryID=313… own1=product I have a slight preference for their powdered version because of the bioabsorption issue; I get it from http://www.health-pages.com/kk/index.html PW is using one of the Gaia Herbs products (not sure if it’s the tincture or the phyto-capsules).  I’ve not tried them, but they have an excellent reputation, and the liquid versions do work much faster. My dosage level flucuates because I supplement the capsules with "kava tonics" I make from raw powder; I probably average around 700 mg/day.  The medical impllications of prolonged daily use at that level is very uncertain. Start with one or two capsules and evaluate your response.  Next time increase the dosage by another capsule until you get what feels like a good response. Take kava on an empty stomach, no matter what the label says, and wait awhile (about an hour, but it varies by individual, before you eat) If you get to 300mg without any significant effect, then kava may not work for you, but give it 3-4 days at a consistent dosage level before you drop it; sometimes it takes a while for the full effect to settle in. Hope it works for you, but even if not, I’d be interested in hearing your opinion. Figaro

Response:

Thanks for the info..I do have more anxiety and no depression anymore and thats why I think the Kava may be better.. It’s worth a try, anyway:) DiA

Response:

I coud use some of that hope, too,PW, so send some my way!   Have been taking St, John’s but will try the Kava after reading about it,. DiA

St. John’s Wort is an anti-depressant.  Kava-kava is (primarily) an anti-anxiety drug; it won’t help mood unless you have anxiety-driven depression.  If you take both, the SJW will interfere with the effectiveness of the kava. You *must* research kava extensively before you take it on a regular basis. There are unresolved health issues involving possible liver damage. Make an informed decision. Although I’m a regular kava user I try not to advocate nor discourage its use by anyone else.  That statement notwithstanding, my personal opinion is that kava has the potential to be an outstanding alternative to the benzodiazepenes, but the current kava products on the market varying in effectiveness from useless to excellent, so you may need to try several before finding one that works for you.

Response:

I coud use some of that hope, too,PW, so send some my way!   Have been taking St, John’s but will try the Kava after reading about it,. DiA

Response:

DiA I have read that St. John’s wort is good for depression.  It can be a bit stimulating.  I skirt away from it because by depression is secondary to my anxiety.  I am not really qualified to make any suggestions, though I can offer some of my own prsonal experience.  St. John’s Wort never helped me at all.  It never hurt me either.  Though it can aggravate some ppls’ anxiety – so I’ve read. PW

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I coud use some of that hope, too,PW, so send some my way!   Have been taking St, John’s but will try the Kava after reading about it,. DiA

Response:

It’s definately easier coming on Zoloft than off, for me.  I was lethargic at first, but after getting up to 50mg it only took about a week to get level. The total time was about 3 weeks.  Then I had a LOT of energy. Bear in mind that I was extremely depressed by the time I started on Zoloft so in contract I felt quite energetic.  The reality was that I was feeling

level. I had the same reaction to Paxil but I was taking it for anxiety and was on a mania streak the entire 3 months I was on it. Thanfully I had Xanax to calm me down. Coming off is harder. I feel wired for about 3 days, then I level out for about a week, then I cut the dosage by 50% and start all over again. Paxil was hell for me.  I was a vegetable on it, crying all the time – very depressed.  Kava works really well for me during those few days when i’m wired, coming off. It takes some of the edge off, though just enough that I don’t feel like being mean to anyone or running over slow people in my car! My anxiety is scary.  I get impatient, critical, irritable, consescending and generally unpleasant to be around at all before I become downright verbally violent.

We have something in common but my anger has nothing to do my anxiety. Still trying to figure out what it is. I have these rage relapses once on a while and cannot control it right in the middle of it. But they usually only last one day now. I was in this state of mind for years in the past. Suicidal up the ying yang. I called someone a bitch on the phone yesterday.  True, she was being incompetent at her job, but it didn’t help the situation to vent like that.  I take the kava as needed.  I usually need it around lunchtime.  I get edgy when I get hungry.

Remind me to never get on your bad side : ) Then again in the evenings when I want to wind down and relax if I feel too keyed up to sit still.  I haven’t needed it much lately.  I anticipate not needing it all in a month.

Good, I’m glad you’re succesfully weaning off of it…

Thanks! Have a good one Ms. PW, Kevin…

Response:

Question:

Anorexia is one of the more pronounced side effects of Prozac, and the manufacturer seriously was or is trying to get it indicated for weight control!! It was prescribed to me for depression when my family had major problems, but it just happened to be just what I needed for my migraines. That was like I said, maybe 16-18 years ago. I have no idea whether it’s STILL helping my migraines, but I’ve been to MHNI twice since then, and nobody’s ever questioned or reconsidered the Prozac…   But by now, for all I know, it might be useless for my migraines, but if I stop taking it, my personality gets kinda dark and sad, because I’m naturally serotonin deficient, so maybe yes, it’s working on SOMETHING? Same for the Elavil – I’ve been taking it since 1993. It helps with the serotonin situation, but it really helps me sleep, too, and I need that, because of my severe sleep apnea, and it’s nonaddictive, so it’s better than a sleeping pill. Plus, Elavil is indicated in other painful conditions, one of which I have: Interstitial cystitis. But Elavil is the biggest culprit in the dry eyes that prevent my eye doctor from giving me the contacts I want. But it’s a good drug, and I’m glad I have it. And when I run out of Flexeril, I’ll take half an Elavil in a pinch. They’re very similar. As for weight, I’ve heard that Elavil is supposed to put weight ON, but frankly, I’ve got so many drugs in my personal stew that I couldn’t begin to tell you which ones are driving my weight one way or the other, unless there’s been a big change in my drugs recently, like switching from Depakote to Topamax 6 months ago, and promptly losing 10 pounds. The BuSpar I don’t remember very well, as far as migraines are concerned… MHNI prescribed it during another bad-family period – my dad had died and I was still freaked about it, and I think the BuSpar was more for keeping ME off the ceiling, than to help with my headpain. It’s a great little drug, that doesn’t wrack you up with side effects. I think it kinda has one foot in the antidepressant category, and the other foot in the tranquilizer category. Ginnie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Really, prozac caused weight loss for you?  Seems funny since most of the other antidepressants seem to do just the opposite.  I gained ten pounds on Paxil. Is any of this helping with your migraines? Thanks! Michelle

Response:

I have used Topopmax, Nortriptelyne and Prozac. Topomax worked except for dizzyness, Nortriptylene weight gain and Prozak nothing. Other high powered ones also caused extreme dizzyness amd nuaseau. If you can handle Topomax or Amitriptylene they might help. A good Neurologist is best way to go. Dr. Ken Moore is great out of Chicago area. This is his only specialialty. He is also covered by BCBS. http://www.helpforheadaches.com/ Even if you are from out of state he may be of help. 70% of his patients are from out of state. Jim

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi all, I am looking at possibly going back on an antidepressant.  I’ve been on Paxil in the past and Effexor.  My experiences with Paxil and Effexor were both pretty good, but I did gain weight on the Paxil.  I wonder if people who have been on any of the antidepressants can share their experiences with them, i.e. did it help any of your migraines, chronic daily headaches, and did you experience side effects (and what were they)? The meds that come to my mind are Paxil, Effexor, Zoloft, Celexa, and Buspar.  Any others?  I’m not looking at diving into a heavy duty antidepressant…something mild is just fine.  Any comments, experiences, etc. are welcome. Thanks! Michelle

Response:

Priscilla, did you notice any weight gain with the Celexa and do you use any triptans as an abortive?  I noticed on the Celexa site that they warn against using some of the triptans…didn’t know if that was an issue for you?

I think I gained a bit of weight during the time I was on Zoloft (my dress size went up), but then I don’t watch my weight and generally eat what makes my body feel good, without attention to calories.  I don’t own bathroom scales. There’s no real problem taking triptans with SSRIs.  I use Imitrex, and I’ve taken it while on Prozac, Zoloft, and Celexa.  It does a very different thing from what the SSRIs do. Sleepiness for me at night would be very welcome…during the day would not.

This is during the day.  Can’t sit/lie down to read a book without zzzzzzing out.  At bedtime, however, I often need help from melatonin or Benedryl. Priscilla — "As you get older, physical deterioration is offset by a larger world view and a deeper sense of gratitude."  Diane Keaton

Response:

Hi all, I am looking at possibly going back on an antidepressant.  I’ve been on Paxil in the past and Effexor.  My experiences with Paxil and Effexor were both pretty good, but I did gain weight on the Paxil.  I wonder if people who have been on any of the antidepressants can share their experiences with them, i.e. did it help any of your migraines, chronic daily headaches, and did you experience side effects (and what were they)?

I’ve tried both tricyclics and SSRIs for ordinary migraines in the misty distant past.  The tricyclics seemed to help quite a bit, but had really weird side effects.  The SSRIs had barely-tolerable side effects (all different, I tried a bunch) and had just-barely perceptible effects on my headaches, I could never be sure if they were helping. Now I have chronic daily headaches, and Topomax is keeping them partly under control (I’m still in constant pain, but between the Topomax and the painkillers, it’s not quite so bad all the time.  Except when it flares up a few times a week.)  I tried adding a tricyclic antidepressant (25mg nortriptyline) as a preventative, and also for the antidepressant effects, because the Topomax and chronic pain together are awfully depressing.   I was only on the Nortriptyline for 3 days, because the side effects were so bad.  I used to describe my tricyclic (and a lot of other medication side effects) as "dizziness," or "motion sickness," even though it was oddly unlike vertigo.  It was like hallucinating, only with my sense of balance and that sense that tells you where your feet are without looking at them.  I’ve had "distorted perceptions" before, many times, but they usually last only a few minutes, and I can perceive reality kind of in the background.  With Nortriptyline, the distortion was much more intense, and it lasted about half an hour each time.  I did some research, and figured out that these were probably partial seizures.  I had 5 one day, 6 the next, then 4 the third day (when I tried to empty out half the powder in the nortriptyline capsule.)  I also had more absence seizures than I could count. The meds that come to my mind are Paxil, Effexor, Zoloft, Celexa, and Buspar.  Any others?  I’m not looking at diving into a heavy duty antidepressant…something mild is just fine.  Any comments, experiences, etc. are welcome.

One of my doctors said that the tricyclics were supposed to be most effective as migraine preventatives.  If you want something mild, you would want a low dose.  But all the tricyclics have the same risk of lowering the seizure threshold.  I think I had a mild seizure disorder for a long time, without knowing it, but going on and off the anti- seizure drugs (Depakote and Neurontin) and other drugs that were supposed to prevent migraine could have lowered my seizure threshold even further.   Adrian Turtle sidewalk radical

Response:

Actually I have used all of those with exception of the Prozac.  The topomax experience was not one I could continue because of severe hives that developed about eight months into the treatment.  The amitriptylene is kind of sketchy because I tried it so many years ago and it didn’t work then and I had side effects that made me quit. I’m actually looking for the antidepressant for the antidepressant effect and hoping to help my CDHs as a side issue. Thanks! Michelle

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have used Topopmax, Nortriptelyne and Prozac. Topomax worked except for dizzyness, Nortriptylene weight gain and Prozak nothing. Other high powered ones also caused extreme dizzyness amd nuaseau. If you can handle Topomax or Amitriptylene they might help. A good Neurologist is best way to go. Dr. Ken Moore is great out of Chicago area. This is his only specialialty. He is also covered by BCBS. http://www.helpforheadaches.com/ Even if you are from out of state he may be of help. 70% of his patients are from out of state. Jim Hi all, I am looking at possibly going back on an antidepressant.  I’ve been on Paxil in the past and Effexor.  My experiences with Paxil and Effexor were both pretty good, but I did gain weight on the Paxil.  I wonder if people who have been on any of the antidepressants can share their experiences with them, i.e. did it help any of your migraines, chronic daily headaches, and did you experience side effects (and what were they)? The meds that come to my mind are Paxil, Effexor, Zoloft, Celexa, and Buspar.  Any others?  I’m not looking at diving into a heavy duty antidepressant…something mild is just fine.  Any comments, experiences, etc. are welcome. Thanks! Michelle

Response:

Hi Michelle, I think during the time that I experienced CDH I tried about every SSRI they had out.  I think there may be a few new ones that i didn’t go on but the point is the entire time I took anti-depressants I also dealt with CDH and intractable migraines . I also took Desyrel to help me sleep and it did sleep me. But didn’t make any difference in the headaches. Since going off SSRI’s May of 2001 I’ve had a total of 3 migraines. Only 1 of them required more then imitrex to abort.  My CDH is just gone.  Yeah, I do still get headaches.  I’m a stress sponge I swear and when I get stressed I still get a headache, but believe it or not i can actually treat them OTC. That’s just my experience We’re all different but I can’t help but wonder if i had quit everything sooner what would have happened. Please understand that at the same time I quit the anti-deprssents i also got rid of a lot of other drugs.  Klonopin, muscle relaxors and percodan to name a few.  Any one of them or a combination of all of them could have contributed to my headaches. Hope this helps Karen – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi all, I am looking at possibly going back on an antidepressant.  I’ve been on Paxil in the past and Effexor.  My experiences with Paxil and Effexor were both pretty good, but I did gain weight on the Paxil.  I wonder if people who have been on any of the antidepressants can share their experiences with them, i.e. did it help any of your migraines, chronic daily headaches, and did you experience side effects (and what were they)? The meds that come to my mind are Paxil, Effexor, Zoloft, Celexa, and Buspar.  Any others?  I’m not looking at diving into a heavy duty antidepressant…something mild is just fine.  Any comments, experiences, etc. are welcome. Thanks! Michelle

Response:

Just thought I’d post this here FYI There is also a class action going against glaxosmithkline for paxil withdrawal information on it can also be found at this site (see url at end of article) Prozac, Zoloft, and Paxil Antidepressant Users v. Eli Lilly, Pfizer, and GlaxoSmithKline Commonly-Prescribed Antidepressants Are Extremely Dangerous for Some Some 200 legal actions have been filed against Eli Lilly, Pfizer, and GlaxoSmithKline, the manufacturers of Prozac (fluoxetine), Zoloft (sertraline), and Paxil (paroxetine), respectively, to recover for suicides or homicides–some completed, some only attempted–by patients in the first few days or weeks after they were prescribed one of these drugs.These three medications are in the same family, called SSRIs, for selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors. They are commonly prescribed for depression, and they work by increasing the amount of a chemical called serotonin in the brain. The actions against the drug companies claim that the companies knew–but failed to warn physicians and patients–that a small number of patients will experience a condition called akathisia, an overwhelming physical and mental restlessness, shortly after they begin taking these drugs. Other patients may, after beginning one of these medications, find themselves sufficiently energized to harm themselves, but not yet helped enough by the drug to control their destructive thoughts. Attorneys representing the patients or their survivors have discovered documents the companies hid–documents showing that these risks exist for all three antidepressants. Some of the patients who have suffered an akathisia reaction have been driven to horrible deeds. Matthew Miller was a 13-year-old who committed suicide less than a week after starting to take Zoloft. Donald Schell, 60, took two Paxil tablets before experiencing hallucinations and then shooting himself, his wife, their daughter, and their granddaughter to death on Feb. 13, 1998. On March 4, 1993, two weeks after starting to take Prozac, William Forsyth stabbed his wife 15 times as she lay in bed, and then leaned on the knife to kill himself. Reginald Payne, 63, a teacher in Great Britain, suffocated his wife and threw himself off a cliff in March 1996, after having taking Prozac for just 11 days. In July, 2001, a federal jury in Cheyenne, Wyoming ordered GlaxoSmithKline to pay $6.4 million to Donald Schell’s relatives. In that case, the relatives found internal GlaxoSmithKline documents showing the company was aware that a small number of people could become agitated or violent from Paxil. Despite this knowledge, Paxil packaging does not include a warning about suicide, violence or aggression. Documents Are Damning The documents discovered about Prozac are particularly revealing: 1. In 1990, Eli Lilly scientists were pressured by corporate executives to alter records on physicians’ experiences with Prozac, changing mentions of suicide attempts to "overdose" and suicidal thoughts to "depression." 2. Three years before Prozac received approval by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA), a similar agency in Germany had such serious reservations about Prozac’s safety that it refused to approve the antidepressant. Eli Lilly’s studies showed that previously nonsuicidal patients who took the drug had a five-fold higher rate of suicide and suicide attempts than those on older antidepressants, and a three-fold higher rate than those taking placebos. 3. Lilly’s own figures indicate that one in 100 previously nonsuicidal patients who took the drug in early clinical trials developed akathisia, causing them to attempt or commit suicide during the studies. It has also been discovered that the patent for a new version of Prozac, which Eli Lilly paid $90 million to acquire, states that the new formulation would reduce "the usual adverse effects" of the original Prozac, including "nervousness, anxiety, insomnia, inner restlessness (akathisia), suicidal thoughts, self-mutilation, manic behavior." Prozac was introduced by Eli Lilly to the U.S. market in January, 1988. Zoloft and Paxil followed in December, 1991, and December, 1992, respectively. Some 45,000 reports of adverse reactions to Prozac have been filed with the FDA. These include reports of about 2500 deaths, with the large majority linked to suicide or violence. Physicians Report Suicidal Reactions Dr. Martin Teicher of Harvard Medical School reported in 1990 that he and his colleagues had observed suicidal thoughts in six patients who were taking Prozac. More recently, Dr. David Healy, an expert on the brain’s serotonin system and the director of the North Wales Department of Psychological Medicine at the University of Wales, estimated that "probably 50,000 people have committed suicide on Prozac since its launch, over and above the number who would have done so if left untreated." Meanwhile, the drug companies continue to rely on a 1991 finding from an FDA advisory panel that "there is no credible evidence of a causal link between the use of antidepressant drugs, including Prozac, and suicidality or violent behaviour." http://www.classactionamerica.com/cases/case.asp?cid=1087

Response:

I have no problem with Nortriptyline which I am taking for 2 weeks.  I started and stayed on 10 mgs with no side effects to speak of; I have just increased my dose to 20 mgs, and I restarted Prozac yesterday.  I am also wearing the NTI appliance and my headaches are better [after 3 weeks].  I also take 1/3 of a triptan the last couple of days and may continue that as a preventative for a week or two and see how that works out.   Also, when I was on Paxil a few years ago, I think it cut down on some of my headaches at that time, but it had plenty of side effects. Joy

Response:

Thanks, Karen.  Interesting.  I had a conversation with my doctor today about the antidepressants and my experience with Paxil (weight gain and icky withdrawal).  He said it doesn’t have to be that way if a doctor closely manages the patient, but he also said Paxil really is bad for those two reasons.  He doesn’t typically prescribe it.  He said the newer drugs are actually turning out to have better results.  He mentioned Lexolor or something like that, but we agreed on Effexor for now since I did have good results with it last time.  We’ll see. I’ll check out the Paxil link…interesting. Thanks, Michelle

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just thought I’d post this here FYI There is also a class action going against glaxosmithkline for paxil withdrawal information on it can also be found at this site (see url at end of article) Prozac, Zoloft, and Paxil Antidepressant Users v. Eli Lilly, Pfizer, and GlaxoSmithKline Commonly-Prescribed Antidepressants Are Extremely Dangerous for Some Some 200 legal actions have been filed against Eli Lilly, Pfizer, and GlaxoSmithKline, the manufacturers of Prozac (fluoxetine), Zoloft (sertraline), and Paxil (paroxetine), respectively, to recover for suicides or homicides–some completed, some only attempted–by patients in the first few days or weeks after they were prescribed one of these drugs.These three medications are in the same family, called SSRIs, for selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors. They are commonly prescribed for depression, and they work by increasing the amount of a chemical called serotonin in the brain. The actions against the drug companies claim that the companies knew–but failed to warn physicians and patients–that a small number of patients will experience a condition called akathisia, an overwhelming physical and mental restlessness, shortly after they begin taking these drugs. Other patients may, after beginning one of these medications, find themselves sufficiently energized to harm themselves, but not yet helped enough by the drug to control their destructive thoughts. Attorneys representing the patients or their survivors have discovered documents the companies hid–documents showing that these risks exist for all three antidepressants. Some of the patients who have suffered an akathisia reaction have been driven to horrible deeds. Matthew Miller was a 13-year-old who committed suicide less than a week after starting to take Zoloft. Donald Schell, 60, took two Paxil tablets before experiencing hallucinations and then shooting himself, his wife, their daughter, and their granddaughter to death on Feb. 13, 1998. On March 4, 1993, two weeks after starting to take Prozac, William Forsyth stabbed his wife 15 times as she lay in bed, and then leaned on the knife to kill himself. Reginald Payne, 63, a teacher in Great Britain, suffocated his wife and threw himself off a cliff in March 1996, after having taking Prozac for just 11 days. In July, 2001, a federal jury in Cheyenne, Wyoming ordered GlaxoSmithKline to pay $6.4 million to Donald Schell’s relatives. In that case, the relatives found internal GlaxoSmithKline documents showing the company was aware that a small number of people could become agitated or violent from Paxil. Despite this knowledge, Paxil packaging does not include a warning about suicide, violence or aggression. Documents Are Damning The documents discovered about Prozac are particularly revealing: 1. In 1990, Eli Lilly scientists were pressured by corporate executives to alter records on physicians’ experiences with Prozac, changing mentions of suicide attempts to "overdose" and suicidal thoughts to "depression." 2. Three years before Prozac received approval by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA), a similar agency in Germany had such serious reservations about Prozac’s safety that it refused to approve the antidepressant. Eli Lilly’s studies showed that previously nonsuicidal patients who took the drug had a five-fold higher rate of suicide and suicide attempts than those on older antidepressants, and a three-fold higher rate than those taking placebos. 3. Lilly’s own figures indicate that one in 100 previously nonsuicidal patients who took the drug in early clinical trials developed akathisia, causing them to attempt or commit suicide during the studies. It has also been discovered that the patent for a new version of Prozac, which Eli Lilly paid $90 million to acquire, states that the new formulation would reduce "the usual adverse effects" of the original Prozac, including "nervousness, anxiety, insomnia, inner restlessness (akathisia), suicidal thoughts, self-mutilation, manic behavior." Prozac was introduced by Eli Lilly to the U.S. market in January, 1988. Zoloft and Paxil followed in December, 1991, and December, 1992, respectively. Some 45,000 reports of adverse reactions to Prozac have been filed with the FDA. These include reports of about 2500 deaths, with the large majority linked to suicide or violence. Physicians Report Suicidal Reactions Dr. Martin Teicher of Harvard Medical School reported in 1990 that he and his colleagues had observed suicidal thoughts in six patients who were taking Prozac. More recently, Dr. David Healy, an expert on the brain’s serotonin system and the director of the North Wales Department of Psychological Medicine at the University of Wales, estimated that "probably 50,000 people have committed suicide on Prozac since its launch, over and above the number who would have done so if left untreated." Meanwhile, the drug companies continue to rely on a 1991 finding from an FDA advisory panel that "there is no credible evidence of a causal link between the use of antidepressant drugs, including Prozac, and suicidality or violent behaviour." http://www.classactionamerica.com/cases/case.asp?cid=1087

Response:

Joy, About the Paxil side effects…that’s what my doctor said.  He doesn’t typically prescribe it unless a patient had a history with it that was good. I went with Effexor since I had used that before, but he also mentioned something like Lexolor (sp?), but I never heard of that. Michelle

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have no problem with Nortriptyline which I am taking for 2 weeks.  I started and stayed on 10 mgs with no side effects to speak of; I have just increased my dose to 20 mgs, and I restarted Prozac yesterday.  I am also wearing the NTI appliance and my headaches are better [after 3 weeks].  I also take 1/3 of a triptan the last couple of days and may continue that as a preventative for a week or two and see how that works out.   Also, when I was on Paxil a few years ago, I think it cut down on some of my headaches at that time, but it had plenty of side effects. Joy

Response:

Thanks, Holly, Mine are mainly caused by hormones.  I have since started taking Effexor since I did have success with it in the past.  It actually has helped and I have had five out of seven days migraine free.  The other two days I suspect were caused by the upper level low that came sweeping in with massive rain (another trigger–weather). Thanks, though. Michelle

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have used several anti-depressants for migraine control.  I also am deficient in serotonin.  They all gave me out of control carbohydrate cravings.  This is a common side-effect – it changes your appetite control centers.  Some people become anorexic others get terrible hunger.  But, I invested in a light-box.  It simulates sunlight (sunlight is supposed to increase serotonin levels in the brain, which is what ssri’s do also) and has totally kept my migraines at bay without use of any drugs.  If you keep track of migraine cycles you may be able to see if they decrease when you spend more time outside in brilliant sunshine.  Holly

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I have used several anti-depressants for migraine control.  I also am deficient in serotonin.  They all gave me out of control carbohydrate cravings.  This is a common side-effect – it changes your appetite control centers.  Some people become anorexic others get terrible hunger.  But, I invested in a light-box.  It simulates sunlight (sunlight is supposed to increase serotonin levels in the brain, which is what ssri’s do also) and has totally kept my migraines at bay without use of any drugs.  If you keep track of migraine cycles you may be able to see if they decrease when you spend more time outside in brilliant sunshine.  Holly

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hello, ask your doctor about amitryptyline… works wonders for me…only on 40 mg a day. Psylocke — "Friends are bacon bits in the salad of life"

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi all, I am looking at possibly going back on an antidepressant.  I’ve been on Paxil in the past and Effexor.  My experiences with Paxil and Effexor were both pretty good, but I did gain weight on the Paxil.  I wonder if people who have been on any of the antidepressants can share their experiences with them, i.e. did it help any of your migraines, chronic daily headaches, and did you experience side effects (and what were they)? The meds that come to my mind are Paxil, Effexor, Zoloft, Celexa, and Buspar.  Any others?  I’m not looking at diving into a heavy duty antidepressant…something mild is just fine.  Any comments, experiences, etc. are welcome. Thanks! Michelle

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The only anti-depressant I take is Prozac and that is for my depression and for Attention Deficit Disorder. I take it once a day and it dosen’t do anything for my migraine headaches. barbara Booth

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Really, prozac caused weight loss for you?  Seems funny since most of the other antidepressants seem to do just the opposite.  I gained ten pounds on Paxil. Is any of this helping with your migraines? Thanks! Michelle

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve been on the SSRI Prozac for maybe 16-18 years, and while it has some side effects I don’t care for (farting, tinnitus, dry mouth), it has some that are helpful (anorexia, wakeful-need to take it in the a.m.). And it’s available in a generic now. Prozac is also good at keeping weight off – they were or are marketing it as a weight reduction aid. I also take Elavil/actually I take Amitriptyline the generic at night, because it helps me sleep, and Elavil is good for overall pain syndromes in that it not only boosts the serotonin, but it also relaxes the muscles at night, which helps ensure better sleep. And it’s inexpensive. But its drawbacks are DRY mouth and dry eyes, and maybe tinnitus. I also took BuSpar several years ago, but it technically is a

tranquilizer, not an – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – antidepressant, even though it binds to serotonin receptors, and doesn’t make you sleepy. It’s a good drug, and fairly benign as far as side effects go. It was prescribed for me at MHNI. Ginnie Hi all, I am looking at possibly going back on an antidepressant.  I’ve been on Paxil in the past and Effexor.  My experiences with Paxil and Effexor were both pretty good, but I did gain weight on the Paxil.  I wonder if people who have been on any of the antidepressants can share their experiences with them, i.e. did it help any of your migraines, chronic daily headaches, and did you experience side effects (and what were they)? The meds that come to my mind are Paxil, Effexor, Zoloft, Celexa, and Buspar.  Any others?  I’m not looking at diving into a heavy duty antidepressant…something mild is just fine.  Any comments, experiences, etc. are welcome. Thanks! Michelle

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Priscilla, did you notice any weight gain with the Celexa and do you use any triptans as an abortive?  I noticed on the Celexa site that they warn against using some of the triptans…didn’t know if that was an issue for you? Sleepiness for me at night would be very welcome…during the day would not. Thanks, Michelle

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi all, I am looking at possibly going back on an antidepressant.  I’ve been on Paxil in the past and Effexor.  My experiences with Paxil and Effexor were both pretty good, but I did gain weight on the Paxil.  I wonder if people who have been on any of the antidepressants can share their experiences with them, i.e. did it help any of your migraines, chronic daily headaches, and did you experience side effects (and what were they)? The meds that come to my mind are Paxil, Effexor, Zoloft, Celexa, and Buspar.  Any others?  I’m not looking at diving into a heavy duty antidepressant…something mild is just fine.  Any comments, experiences, etc. are welcome. I’m going off Celexa and back to Zoloft because I suspect Celexa may be responsible for my terrible sleepiness.  It worked well as an antidepressant, as did Zoloft before (and I hope again!). Priscilla — "As you get older, physical deterioration is offset by a larger world view and a deeper sense of gratitude."  Diane Keaton

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I’ve been on the SSRI Prozac for maybe 16-18 years, and while it has some side effects I don’t care for (farting, tinnitus, dry mouth), it has some that are helpful (anorexia, wakeful-need to take it in the a.m.). And it’s available in a generic now. Prozac is also good at keeping weight off – they were or are marketing it as a weight reduction aid. I also take Elavil/actually I take Amitriptyline the generic at night, because it helps me sleep, and Elavil is good for overall pain syndromes in that it not only boosts the serotonin, but it also relaxes the muscles at night, which helps ensure better sleep. And it’s inexpensive. But its drawbacks are DRY mouth and dry eyes, and maybe tinnitus. I also took BuSpar several years ago, but it technically is a tranquilizer, not an antidepressant, even though it binds to serotonin receptors, and doesn’t make you sleepy. It’s a good drug, and fairly benign as far as side effects go. It was prescribed for me at MHNI. Ginnie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi all, I am looking at possibly going back on an antidepressant.  I’ve been on Paxil in the past and Effexor.  My experiences with Paxil and Effexor were both pretty good, but I did gain weight on the Paxil.  I wonder if people who have been on any of the antidepressants can share their experiences with them, i.e. did it help any of your migraines, chronic daily headaches, and did you experience side effects (and what were they)? The meds that come to my mind are Paxil, Effexor, Zoloft, Celexa, and Buspar.  Any others?  I’m not looking at diving into a heavy duty antidepressant…something mild is just fine.  Any comments, experiences, etc. are welcome. Thanks! Michelle

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Hi all, I am looking at possibly going back on an antidepressant.  I’ve been on Paxil in the past and Effexor.  My experiences with Paxil and Effexor were both pretty good, but I did gain weight on the Paxil.  I wonder if people who have been on any of the antidepressants can share their experiences with them, i.e. did it help any of your migraines, chronic daily headaches, and did you experience side effects (and what were they)? The meds that come to my mind are Paxil, Effexor, Zoloft, Celexa, and Buspar.  Any others?  I’m not looking at diving into a heavy duty antidepressant…something mild is just fine.  Any comments, experiences, etc. are welcome.

I’m going off Celexa and back to Zoloft because I suspect Celexa may be responsible for my terrible sleepiness.  It worked well as an antidepressant, as did Zoloft before (and I hope again!). Priscilla — "As you get older, physical deterioration is offset by a larger world view and a deeper sense of gratitude."  Diane Keaton

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Have tried the tricyclics (no help, much weight gain); three SSRIs (no help & no libido either); and Welbutrin (no help, spoiled my occasional cigar…hee hee). Sorry. Hope your experience is better. –Julianne

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Hi all, I am looking at possibly going back on an antidepressant.  I’ve been on Paxil in the past and Effexor.  My experiences with Paxil and Effexor were both pretty good, but I did gain weight on the Paxil.  I wonder if people who have been on any of the antidepressants can share their experiences with them, i.e. did it help any of your migraines, chronic daily headaches, and did you experience side effects (and what were they)? The meds that come to my mind are Paxil, Effexor, Zoloft, Celexa, and Buspar.  Any others?  I’m not looking at diving into a heavy duty antidepressant…something mild is just fine.  Any comments, experiences, etc. are welcome. Thanks! Michelle

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Question:

My very casual and not even remotely statistically valid impression is that on the (entirely reasonable) basis of package and company warnings, most doctors are probably under the impression that these side effects are relatively uncommon, affecting perhaps of the order of 10% to 30%. This in turn is probably representative of how many people in trials were prepared to speak up and discuss the resultant effects (which, for a single, depressed person, might not be something you really want to discuss with a stranger). On the other hand, casual late night discussions in IRC (it’s always late night for someone, somewhere, so we have these sorts of discussions at any hour!) would suggest that if such side effects aren’t universal, they’re certainly the rule rather than the exception. It’s difficult to imagine how you go about researching the prevelance of anorgasmia in SSRI patients (there, I said it!) without outright asking the single ones if wanking has become a waste of time and effort…. I’ve heard it suggested that SSRIs work by suppressing libido, thus removing the single most potent basis for depression, feeling lonely and single. OK, we were joking, but thats an indication of how common this stuff is. As for me? Well I’d love to test if there has been any adverse sexual effect from my effexor, but noone has offered to help me investigate, (which also raises the question of what is adverse and who it’s adverse for) and I would never do such a thing on my own! Graham For any Aussies present, my GP used to be Dr Feelgood, which made discussing this sort of stuff a good deal easier; I used to tell her they’d perfected the male contraceptive, it was an SSRI. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A new study found that patient complaints of sexual dysfunction caused by antidepressants are almost two times greater than believed by physicians, according to a report presented at the American Psychiatric Association’s annual meeting. Researchers studied 6,297 patients enrolled at 1,101 primary care offices throughout the U.S. and evaluated 10 different new generation antidepressants. Although selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs) and serotonin and norephinephrine reuptake inhibitors (SNRIs) are associated with a higher rate of sexual dysfunction, newer antidepressants such as bupropion (Wellbutrin) and nefazodone have shown a lower incidence of the problem. "The SSRIs are known to cause sexual dysfunction as a side effect, but until now, there hasn’t been a study to look at all the new generation antidepressants to see how they compare," said Dr. Anita Clayton, associate professor and vice chair of the Department of Psychiatric Medicine at the University of Virginia and lead investigator of the study. "Physicians and patients are generally reluctant to talk about sexual problems. Therefore, physicians often underestimate the prevalence of antidepressant-associated sexual dysfunction and the impact on patients, as shown in this study." Wellbutrin SR (bupropion HCI) Sustained-Release was associated with the lowest rate of sexual dysfunction (25 percent) after Wellbutrin (bupropion HCI) (22 percent), compared with an average of 40 percent with the SSRIs venlafaxine (Effexor) and mirtazapine (Remeron). The prevalence rate of sexual dysfunction ranged from 7 percent of patients receiving Wellbutrin SR to 23 to 30 percent for patients receiving the other antidepressants, including fluoxetine (Prozac), citalopram (Celexa) and venlafaxine XR. This article is brought to you by the "Depression Week" online newsletter. This newletter presents the latest news and views on developments in Depression, it is one of a family of specialized medical newsletters brought to you by Medical Week, LLC. http://www.depressionweek.org/

– Some of my colleagues think that the chemicals we are experimenting with could potentially cause brain damage, however I think that fish crunchy bits of salami my new red hippie noodle. Naked pool frogs?

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A new study found that patient complaints of sexual dysfunction caused by antidepressants are almost two times greater than believed by physicians, according to a report presented at the American Psychiatric Association’s annual meeting. Researchers studied 6,297 patients enrolled at 1,101 primary care offices throughout the U.S. and evaluated 10 different new generation antidepressants. Although selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs) and serotonin and norephinephrine reuptake inhibitors (SNRIs) are associated with a higher rate of sexual dysfunction, newer antidepressants such as bupropion (Wellbutrin) and nefazodone have shown a lower incidence of the problem. "The SSRIs are known to cause sexual dysfunction as a side effect, but until now, there hasn’t been a study to look at all the new generation antidepressants to see how they compare," said Dr. Anita Clayton, associate professor and vice chair of the Department of Psychiatric Medicine at the University of Virginia and lead investigator of the study. "Physicians and patients are generally reluctant to talk about sexual problems. Therefore, physicians often underestimate the prevalence of antidepressant-associated sexual dysfunction and the impact on patients, as shown in this study." Wellbutrin SR (bupropion HCI) Sustained-Release was associated with the lowest rate of sexual dysfunction (25 percent) after Wellbutrin (bupropion HCI) (22 percent), compared with an average of 40 percent with the SSRIs venlafaxine (Effexor) and mirtazapine (Remeron). The prevalence rate of sexual dysfunction ranged from 7 percent of patients receiving Wellbutrin SR to 23 to 30 percent for patients receiving the other antidepressants, including fluoxetine (Prozac), citalopram (Celexa) and venlafaxine XR. This article is brought to you by the "Depression Week" online newsletter. This newletter presents the latest news and views on developments in Depression, it is one of a family of specialized medical newsletters brought to you by Medical Week, LLC. http://www.depressionweek.org/

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Question:

I know I am highly suggestible. I see I just can’t read anything negative about anything right now…it’s not in my best interest. Lorri – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -And this is one of the reasons the anti benzo brigade get such a hard time here. Not because of the dependency issue, which is admitted – just check ASAP’s FAQ, but because they blow it out of all proportion and scare people off what can be a very useful group of anti-anx/pan meds. I had a very hard time with Xanax some years ago. But it wasn’t the med that was at fault, but my expectations that it would cause certain things to happen, based on what had been mostly misinformation. What some of these doom merchants fail to realise, or perhaps don’t care about, is that suggestions can be very powerful. I remember a study done many years ago which basically consisted of giving half the subjects a cup of warm milk just before bedtime and the other half got strong coffee. As expected the warm milk group slept soundly, while most of the coffee group couldn’t sleep at all. However, what they didn’t know was that the coffee was decaf and the warm milk was laced with about 3 strong coffees worth of caffeine. Tell folk that they are going to suffer the agonies of the damned when they wean of their benzo and most of them will. Yes, dependency is an issue, just as it is with many medications. Fail to wean slowly from beta blockers or many blood pressure meds and the withdrawal effect can be initially high blood pressure, quickly followed by zero blood pressure. Permanently zero BP!! Weaned from correctly, benzos usually don’t present any greater difficulty than most other dependency producing drugs. Indeed, on some evidence, they appear to be much easier to quit than aspirin (see my comments in the Aspirin thread).                                       Zu Enlil

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I know I am highly suggestible. I see I just can’t read anything negative about anything right now…it’s not in my best interest. Lorri

Dear Lorri, From one med phobic to another, what you are going through is very common. What I did when I was weaning on paxil was to *not* read any threads that had to do with Paxil. It took alot of willpower on my part to also not give into my urges to surf the net to read all about paxil.  Once you have been on the Klonopin for awhile and your anxiety has decreased, you should find that your suggestibility when it comes to Klonopin will decrease too. Take care Jackie

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Hi Jackie, Now I just pop it and try not to think too much about it. Hugs Lorri

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I know I am highly suggestible. I see I just can’t read anything negative about anything right now…it’s not in my best interest. Lorri

Lorri, I know a bit about meds and how they work, but my pharmacist knows that she should take the info sheets out of my AD packets!!!! Some things you just don’t need to think about.   Take care                                             Zu

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Thankfully, before and even after the lasik, these 45 yr old eyes couldn’t really read the tiny print of the inserts. Now if I only can keep off the websites! Lorri – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Lorri, I know a bit about meds and how they work, but my pharmacist knows that she should take the info sheets out of my AD packets!!!! Some things you just don’t need to think about.   Take care                                            Zu

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Hi Jackie, Now I just pop it and try not to think too much about it. Hugs Lorri

Hi Lorri, I can also relate to being very med phobic. I am very curious to know if the Klonopin is working for you so far. How are you feeling on it? Have you felt less anxious? Hugs, Steph

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Hi Stephanie, As of now my Zoloft dose is up to 50 mg and last night after a friend said something to me, I freaked and took .5mg of K. It seemed to calm me down somewhat. I’m going to ask my Dr if I might be better off taking a dose in the morning and in the evening. I kind of had an epiphany today. I drive for a living and put in more than 4 hours on the road….and boy do we have some rotten highways. Anyway, my anxiety level was kind of high and I just decided to except it, not try to fight it or push it away. Well, it worked. I feel much better when I’m not waiting for the inevitable doom to stike. Heres hoping that I can contine to reinforce this. (((((hugs)))) Lorri

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Hi Rita, It’s funny but taking the Zoloft doesnt scare me at all, it was the K that frightened me. I guess all the talk about dependence and addiction was part of the scare. I went up on a site last night to read about the K and I found myself getting scared…I dont think I read more than one line.

snipped And this is one of the reasons the anti benzo brigade get such a hard time here. Not because of the dependency issue, which is admitted – just check ASAP’s FAQ, but because they blow it out of all proportion and scare people off what can be a very useful group of anti-anx/pan meds. I had a very hard time with Xanax some years ago. But it wasn’t the med that was at fault, but my expectations that it would cause certain things to happen, based on what had been mostly misinformation. What some of these doom merchants fail to realise, or perhaps don’t care about, is that suggestions can be very powerful. I remember a study done many years ago which basically consisted of giving half the subjects a cup of warm milk just before bedtime and the other half got strong coffee. As expected the warm milk group slept soundly, while most of the coffee group couldn’t sleep at all. However, what they didn’t know was that the coffee was decaf and the warm milk was laced with about 3 strong coffees worth of caffeine. Tell folk that they are going to suffer the agonies of the damned when they wean of their benzo and most of them will. Yes, dependency is an issue, just as it is with many medications. Fail to wean slowly from beta blockers or many blood pressure meds and the withdrawal effect can be initially high blood pressure, quickly followed by zero blood pressure. Permanently zero BP!! Weaned from correctly, benzos usually don’t present any greater difficulty than most other dependency producing drugs. Indeed, on some evidence, they appear to be much easier to quit than aspirin (see my comments in the Aspirin thread).                                        Zu Enlil

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Followup: I got brave and took another 2.5 mg of K right before I went to bed last night. I did some serious relaxation exercises before hand and had one of the best sleeps I’ve had in weeks. I was also able to fall back to sleep when I woke up at 6AM. No, I dont intend to use it every night but I need it for now. I have med paranioa that makes me think my meds are going to have an opposite effect on me. I have to get over this. Lorri

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Followup: I got brave and took another 2.5 mg of K right before I went to bed last night. I did some serious relaxation exercises before hand and had one of the best sleeps I’ve had in weeks. I was also able to fall back to sleep when I woke up at 6AM. No, I dont intend to use it every night but I need it for now. I have med paranioa that makes me think my meds are going to have an opposite effect on me. I have to get over this. Lorri

good for you I’m proud of you for taking the med and confronting your fear as well as realizing it is your fear not a side effect you are feeling. LM

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Followup: I got brave and took another 2.5 mg of K right before I went to bed last night. I did some serious relaxation exercises before hand and had one of the best sleeps I’ve had in weeks. I was also able to fall back to sleep when I woke up at 6AM. No, I dont intend to use it every night but I need it for now. I have med paranioa that makes me think my meds are going to have an opposite effect on me. I have to get over this. Lorri

Most PAD-sufferers are med phobic. I know I am. And up to a point this can initially work against us. For example: when I started Xanax three years ago I had all the listed side effects plus some unlisted ones <g five minutes after I took the first pill…. As a matter of fact Dr. Shipko goes so far as to state that people who are really phobic of a new med shouldn’t take it because they will produce a *self-fulfilling prophecy*. I strongly disagree with his reasoning though. From my own experience (and that of many others) I know that a med will do its work properly because it *does* work…. regardless of what we think of it. In his view, I feel, *placebo* (or, rather *deplacebo*) is rated much too high. Although I agree that placebo effects play a large role in the treatment of PAD (and are, in the positive sense, proper effects too which can be put to good use) the substances in our meds are real enough just like penicilline will work even if we don’t believe it will. Also research has shown time and again that placebo may often occur but that nevertheless meds *do* work a whole lot better. You have now proven to yourself that Klonopin works, your *med paranoia* notwithstanding. Yes, you have to get over this, but just taking the med will do that for you. Philip

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I know I have to get over the fear..I figured I would "just do it" and NOT dwell on any "what ifs"…that part of my problem anyway, LOL. Sigh, this time my PAs were triggered by the Lasik surgery I had almost three weeks ago. This is NOT the thing to do if you have constant anxiety hanging over you. I swear they should give a pych test before doing the Lasik. The first 2 post lasik days were perfect, then the old fears of "OMG, what if my Dr made a mistake, what if he put the wrong corrections into the computer, what if I’m permently blinded, what if, what if, what if? Sheesh, does this train of throught sound familar?? Thankfully, my medical Dr told me that I just found a new focus for old fears and if it wasnt the lasik, I would still be dwelling on brain tumors, cancer, etc! Thanks for caring! Lorri – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -good for you I’m proud of you for taking the med and confronting your fear as well as realizing it is your fear not a side effect you are feeling. LM

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Thankfully, my medical Dr told me that I just found a new focus for old fears and if it wasnt the lasik, I would still be dwelling on brain tumors,

he is correct–you have a persoanlity style that worries and this worry will attach itself onto any credible tangible thing it can-what you can learn to do with cbt is slow down your thinking and learn to dispute the irrational beliefs before you react to them.By recognizing that negativity and catastrophic thinking is a bad habit and can be changed will take you a long way towards recovery. You may forever be a sensitive worrier but you can ramp down its overall reaction to your living a happy healthy life. what if he put the wrong corrections into the computer,

a normie may think this too but the difference is you believe it and even though you know that believing it is not objective you still believe it or at least think that by hedging and believing part of it you safeguard it from happening-sort of like believing in magic-if I worry enough it won’t happen. Your motives for the surgery were rational the procedure is relatively safe and has agood track record your doc wasn’t a foot doctor working on eyes and you survived it with comfort and are healing- when I wake up in the morning I can easily start catastrophizing and slip into the void of feeling anxious-but I actively and consciously don’t do it-I force myself to think differently and it becomes a habit-I will not be a mr.happy go lucky smiling bafoon but I will not be a chronic worrier either-this type of thinking is obsessive negativity try using it’s opposite for a week be obsessively positive even if you don’t believe it-when you believe it you will see it and you will slowly but surely.paste positive affirmations everywhere and read them write down every negative thought you have just the cumbersomeness will help abate some learn to recognize them and challenge them forcefully-klonopin will relax you but it will not change your negativity you can do that and will if you grow tired enough of the results of being negative-Remember that klonopin is used at doses of up to 4.5 mg a day so your dose is way lower then many who use it-the fear you have is just an attempt to negate a positive or proactive move-you are trying to keep yourself stuck and sabotoge growth-growth is scary-and its ok to be scared give yourself permission to be anxious it really is ok-no one likes to take meds no one wants to feel badly-the role of the meds are as a tool to help you not to harm you regardless of lots of misinformed nonsense you may read from time to time-one step forward at a time LM

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I said: Thankfully, my medical Dr told me that I just found a new focus for old fears and if it wasnt the lasik, I would still be dwelling on brain tumors,

LM came back with: he is correct–you have a persoanlity style that worries and this worry will attach itself onto any credible tangible thing it can- snip< a normie may think this too but the difference is you believe it and even though you know that believing it is not objective you still believe it or at least think that by hedging and believing part of it you safeguard it from happening-sort of like believing in magic-if I worry enough it won’t happen.

I can’t believe you hit the nail right on the head with your super insight. I was just telling someone last night that my fears (today the lasik) is kind of like a fearful flier that just knows the plane will crash if they relax. I also realized that I am afraid to let go of my fears….there is something almost comforting in the familiar anxiety I have. Thank you, I have saved this post and will go back and read it again. Lorri

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Steph Think about what you just said. It doesn’t make sense. If she ( I don’t think she said ) just started taking .2mgs of K and got a jittery feeling, how does that indicate that she is under medicated unless of course she was experiencing the same jitteriness all along. But if this is a reaction to the drug, then why would you say to go up on it  ?  Yes it isn’t a lot of K  but I would be curious to ask her if she felt the jitteriness came as a result of the meds.  If so then, what is the point of taking more ?  To try to cover up what the .2mgs are doing ?    Oh well, people on benzos can’t think too clearly anyway ( myself included .   I’m down to 3 mgs Valium a day and feeling OK but some transient bad muscle stiffness and some other things.  I thought I would have problems around here but so far so good.  BTW  FWIW  point2 mgs of K is equal to about  4 mgs valium. Let’s have a don’t trust your dang fool doctor day and see if anyone here starts to get better. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I took .2 mgs of Klonopin for the first time last night. I was fine until I tried to sleep. I felt very jittery. I was wondering if this is common with the drug. If this is how it’s going to effect me, I won’t take it…I do the jitters just fine on my own, thank you very much Lorri Hi Lorri! I’m surprised that you had the jitters. I myself have never experienced this. Please give it about a week or two to get into your system. I take 0.5 mgs 2-3 times daily and as I told you I had no problem. IMHO, 0.2 mg is undermedicated. Is that the dosage your Physician prescribed? How many times a day? Let me hear from you. Steph

Response:

Hi Lorrie, I agree with Philip on this one.  A drug is designed to do a certain job, and no matter what I "think" about it, it’s going to still do the job it was meant to do.  Once I accepted that concept, I relaxed and stopped worrying about it.  I also threw away all my med info books. I am the type that would compulsively read up on each and every med given to me and then would scare myself half to death. I found out the less I knew, the better off I was.  That’s just me.  Now if I want to know something, I call my psych doc and ask him. That’s the only way I knew how to "cure" my drug phobia.:-) ~Rita~ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Followup: I got brave and took another 2.5 mg of K right before I went to bed last night. I did some serious relaxation exercises before hand and had one of the best sleeps I’ve had in weeks. I was also able to fall back to sleep when I woke up at 6AM. No, I dont intend to use it every night but I need it for now. I have med paranioa that makes me think my meds are going to have an opposite effect on me. I have to get over this. Lorri Most PAD-sufferers are med phobic. I know I am. And up to a point this can initially work against us. For example: when I started Xanax three years ago I had all the listed side effects plus some unlisted ones <g five minutes after I took the first pill…. As a matter of fact Dr. Shipko goes so far as to state that people who are really phobic of a new med shouldn’t take it because they will produce a *self-fulfilling prophecy*. I strongly disagree with his reasoning though. From my own experience (and that of many others) I know that a med will do its work properly because it *does* work…. regardless of what we think of it. In his view, I feel, *placebo* (or, rather *deplacebo*) is rated much too high. Although I agree that placebo effects play a large role in the treatment of PAD (and are, in the positive sense, proper effects too which can be put to good use) the substances in our meds are real enough just like penicilline will work even if we don’t believe it will. Also research has shown time and again that placebo may often occur but that nevertheless meds *do* work a whole lot better. You have now proven to yourself that Klonopin works, your *med paranoia* notwithstanding. Yes, you have to get over this, but just taking the med will do that for you. Philip

Before you buy.

Response:

Hi Rita, It’s funny but taking the Zoloft doesnt scare me at all, it was the K that frightened me. I guess all the talk about dependence and addiction was part of the scare. I went up on a site last night to read about the K and I found myself getting scared…I dont think I read more than one line. I take the K at night and find myself being kind of anal about it..should I take it at 9, will I be better off taking it at 10…will I become dependent?? Sheesh, at that point I tell myself to shut up and I swallow the damned thing. I also popped a Tylenol with it because I had a headache…YEAAAAA! Lorri – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Hi Lorrie, I agree with Philip on this one.  A drug is designed to do a certain job, and no matter what I "think" about it, it’s going to still do the job it was meant to do.  Once I accepted that concept, I relaxed and stopped worrying about it.  I also threw away all my med info books. I am the type that would compulsively read up on each and every med given to me and then would scare myself half to death. I found out the less I knew, the better off I was.  That’s just me.  Now if I want to know something, I call my psych doc and ask him. That’s the only way I knew how to "cure" my drug phobia.:-) ~Rita~ Followup: I got brave and took another 2.5 mg of K right before I went to bed last night. I did some serious relaxation exercises before hand and had one of the best sleeps I’ve had in weeks. I was also able to fall back to sleep when I woke up at 6AM. No, I dont intend to use it every night but I need it for now. I have med paranioa that makes me think my meds are going to have an opposite effect on me. I have to get over this. Lorri Most PAD-sufferers are med phobic. I know I am. And up to a point this can initially work against us. For example: when I started Xanax three years ago I had all the listed side effects plus some unlisted ones <g five minutes after I took the first pill…. As a matter of fact Dr. Shipko goes so far as to state that people who are really phobic of a new med shouldn’t take it because they will produce a *self-fulfilling prophecy*. I strongly disagree with his reasoning though. From my own experience (and that of many others) I know that a med will do its work properly because it *does* work…. regardless of what we think of it. In his view, I feel, *placebo* (or, rather *deplacebo*) is rated much too high. Although I agree that placebo effects play a large role in the treatment of PAD (and are, in the positive sense, proper effects too which can be put to good use) the substances in our meds are real enough just like penicilline will work even if we don’t believe it will. Also research has shown time and again that placebo may often occur but that nevertheless meds *do* work a whole lot better. You have now proven to yourself that Klonopin works, your *med paranoia* notwithstanding. Yes, you have to get over this, but just taking the med will do that for you. Philip Before you buy.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Steph Think about what you just said. It doesn’t make sense. If she ( I don’t think she said ) just started taking .2mgs of K and got a jittery feeling, how does that indicate that she is under medicated unless of course she was experiencing the same jitteriness all along. But if this is a reaction to the drug, then why would you say to go up on it  ?  Yes it isn’t a lot of K  but I would be curious to ask her if she felt the jitteriness came as a result of the meds.  If so then, what is the point of taking more ?  To try to cover up what the .2mgs are doing ?    Oh well, people on benzos can’t think too clearly anyway ( myself included .   I’m down to 3 mgs Valium a day and feeling OK but some transient bad muscle stiffness and some other things.  I thought I would have problems around here but so far so good.  BTW  FWIW  point2 mgs of K is equal to about  4 mgs valium. Let’s have a don’t trust your dang fool doctor day and see if anyone here starts to get better.

Good Heavens! You are an idiot! I never told her to up her dosage. I clearly stated IMHO (which you NEVER do, BTW) I asked her if that was what her Physician prescribed and how many times per day.IMHO means just that. It does not mean I told her to up her dosage. It just means IMHO that *I* feel she may be undermedicated. Get your shit together. Don’t take me for a fool Rand. I’ll come back everytime and bust your balls. Stephanie

Response:

I took .2 mgs of Klonopin for the first time last night. I was fine until I tried to sleep. I felt very jittery. I was wondering if this is common with the drug. If this is how it’s going to effect me, I won’t take it…I do the jitters just fine on my own, thank you very much Lorri

Hi Lorri! I’m surprised that you had the jitters. I myself have never experienced this. Please give it about a week or two to get into your system. I take 0.5 mgs 2-3 times daily and as I told you I had no problem. IMHO, 0.2 mg is undermedicated. Is that the dosage your Physician prescribed? How many times a day? Let me hear from you. Steph

Response:

You are making the event of medicating yourself an anxiety trigger

You know, I think you’re right. I have always been afraid to medicate myself…even the thought of an aspirin makes me wonder what side effects I will have. Sigh, I took my first Zoloft this morning and waited for the worst to happen. I honestly think this is a deep seated control issue for me. Thank you for your response. Lorri

Response:

Lorri, I have found that many meds do make me jittery at night.  What I do is take my last daily med around 8:00 pm and go to bed a few hours later.  If I take it right before I go to bed I do end up jittery.  Try taking it earlier in the evening.  Hope it works! smiles, elise

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I took .2 mgs of Klonopin for the first time last night. I was fine until I tried to sleep. I felt very jittery. I was wondering if this is common with the drug. If this is how it’s going to effect me, I won’t take it…I do the jitters just fine on my own, thank you very much Lorri

Response:

I honestly think this is a deep seated control issue for me.

it isn’t deep seated or a control issue no one likes taking meds unless you really have a problem of abuse or severe hypochndriasis-meds can be scary justifiably so-what you can do is weigh the benefit vrs risk issue and truly examine he significant side effects of the med you want to use. Klonopin zoloft asprin aren’t LSD or cyanide-the dramatic fear response one has is similar to the fear response they have when thinking of how they will react when having a panic attack-bottom line if you examine how many people in a given day take zoloft or asprin and how many of them benefit without significant risk you put this in somewhat of a more realistic perspective. The combination of zoloft and klonopin is a good one so stick with it -start your zoloft low and give it a full 6 weeks to work after you reach the full dose-do use the klonopin at your docs rec. dosing -this may be in your best interests not your worse-be patient LM

Response:

it isn’t deep seated or a control issue no one likes taking meds unless you really have a problem of abuse or severe hypochndriasis-

When I said I have a control issue, I meant losing control of myself. I’m afraid of nt being able to handle what I feel….sigh…it goes on and on. Anyway, I’m going to stick with the Zoloft and give it a chance to work. Lorri

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I took .2 mgs of Klonopin for the first time last night. I was fine until I tried to sleep. I felt very jittery. I was wondering if this is common with the drug. If this is how it’s going to effect me, I won’t take it…I do the jitters just fine on my own, thank you very much Lorri

no actually the opposite many nuerologists use it to stop tremors and jitters this is an example of creating more anxiety then the drug can reduce-which at this dose is easy. You are making the event of medicating yourself an anxiety trigger-unless you are indeed having a paradoxical reaction- a larger dose would be te telling sign if you are willing to experince or try it again following your docs prescribing dose LM

Response:

I took .2 mgs of Klonopin for the first time last night. I was fine until I tried to sleep. I felt very jittery. I was wondering if this is common with the drug. If this is how it’s going to effect me, I won’t take it…I do the jitters just fine on my own, thank you very much Lorri

Response:

Question:

Hi Richard: I have the same thing as your wife!! I have had it for 5 years and it was originally caused from taking too much decongestant which caused insomnia. The worse my insomnia gets, the worse the jerks get and I can get days of 1 hr sleep a night. WHen it originally started I collapsed at work from fatigue and was diagnosed with panic disorder. I have successfully treated it with medications over the last 5 years. WHen I have to change meds for various reasons (wt gain, fatigue, etc) and/or during periods of no medication it comes back after a couple of nights of bad sleep. I had a sleep study done in the summer and it showed sleep terrors and I was told that the jerking was called hypnic (sp?) jerks. I also have hypnogogic hallucinations where I am partially awake and see trolls,and such, running around my room until I’m fully awake. Everyone is different with meds but I have found that Doxepin worked great within two days. Also Paxil, xanax, nortriptyline and now I am on zopiclone (Imovane here in Canada).For me I HAVE to be on medication, self-help things do absolutely nothing once I get the jerks. Drugs that did NOT work for me are clonazepam (though it is indicated for RLS and sleep terrors), Prozac, Effexor, Manerix. I am also on Luvox(fluvoxamine) now which does not help my sleep yet. I have been on the Imovane (3.75-7.5 mg) for about 6 weeks and just recently I have found it to be less effective. How long has your wife been on it and has it maintained its effectivesness? What dose is she on and how often? I was supposed to take it every second day but the day in between I was sleepless so now I am on it nightly. Has she had a sleep study done? In article <36930565.1…@bt.com

,

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -  richard.ingles…@bt.com wrote:

Help for my Wife We live in a small village in the UK. I’m hoping that somewhere out there is someone who has experience or knowledge of the problem that has affected my wife’s sleep for the last four years.  Elaine is 42 years old. The problem is as follows: – She will start to fall asleep, but just as she is dropping off her whole body jerks her awake.  These hypnagogic jerks  often happen in individuals, but normally only once or twice before the person falls asleep.  The problem for my wife is that this process is continuous, with jerks every few seconds preventing her from sleeping at all. Usually when people have these jerks they get a sensation of falling that precedes the jerk but my wife gets repeated jerks without the falling sensation.  She likens it to the needle on a record getting stuck and playing the same tune over and over again. The only way that my wife is able to get any relief from her insomnia is to take the sleeping medication Zopiclone (Zimovane) every night. Unfortunately Elaine needs at least 8 to 9 hours sleep to feel refreshed and not end up walking round like a zombie.  She used to be such a good sleeper and longs to be able to sleep well again of her own accord without having to take the medication. She has never been afraid of falling asleep as she has always found sleep to be a great way of relieving stress. If there is anyone who has suffered the same or knows of the causes/cures for this and can enlighten us I would be over the moon for any information given that would result in Elaine’s insomnia being cured.

———–== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==———- http://www.dejanews.com/       Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own    

Response:

richard inglesant wrote:

We live in a small village in the UK.

You’ll be happy to know that there appear to be some excellent support groups in the UK for people suffering from sleep disorders.  Hopefully, one of the other members has that pointer readily available… (Sorry I don’t have it at the moment).

I’m hoping that somewhere out there is someone who has experience or knowledge of the problem that has affected my wife’s sleep for the last four years.  Elaine is 42 years old. The problem is as follows: – She will start to fall asleep, but just as she is dropping off her whole body jerks her awake.  These hypnagogic jerks often happen in individuals, but normally only once or twice before the person falls asleep.  The problem for my wife is that this process is continuous, with jerks every few seconds preventing her from sleeping at all.

Richard, please understand, suggestions we can offer are purely based on our experience, not medical knowledge.  However, with that disclaimer, you might want to look into two different possible problems: RLS – Restless Leg Syndrome … describes the problem some people have while awake.  (Generally their legs tend to ‘bounce’ as if restless – without the individual being fully aware of the movement). PLMD – Periodic Leg Movement Disorder … describes periodic leg movements during sleep, which cause the individual to jerk awake.  Often the jerk does not fully awaken the individual, but does cause the individual to not have restful sleep. For many people these jerks only exhibit themselves as jerks in the leg. However, these jerks can be severe enough to impact the entire body. Sometimes I hear sound associated with the jerks. Pointers on where to find out more are below.

Usually when people have these jerks they get a sensation of falling that precedes the jerk but my wife gets repeated jerks without the falling sensation.  She likens it to the needle on a record getting stuck and playing the same tune over and over again.

Yup.  Not comfortable and can cause a great deal of anxiety.

The only way that my wife is able to get any relief from her insomnia is to take the sleeping medication Zopiclone (Zimovane) every night.  Unfortunately Elaine needs at least 8 to 9 hours sleep to feel refreshed and not end up walking round like a zombie.  She used to be such a good sleeper and longs to be able to sleep well again of her own accord without having to take the medication. She has never been afraid of falling asleep as she has always found sleep to be a great way of relieving stress.

Unfortunately, (as I understand it) medication is about the only way to gain some release from these symptoms.  I do not know if the medication she is taking is targeted to relieve the symptoms or merely induce sleep.

If there is anyone who has suffered the same or knows of the causes/cures for this and can enlighten us I would be over the moon for any information given that would result in Elaine’s insomnia being cured.

You might want to discuss the possibility of Restless Leg Syndrome, or Periodic Leg Movement Disorder with her doctor.  Again, though the names imply only leg movements, it can impact the entire body.  I sometimes feel as if someone has delivered a strong electric shock to my system…  Not fun. You might want to look at the following web sites:   1.  Restless Legs Syndrome Foundation, Inc.    http://www.rls.org   2.  Southern California RLS Support Group       http://surf.to/rls Hope this helps some.  Other members in the newsgroup should be able to provide information about the medication they use, and possibly even about the medication your wife is taking.  But our experience is no substitute for discussing this with a healthcare professional who can help her with her sleep disorder (not just drugging her to sleep). Regards, =jbf= John B. Fisher

Response:

Help for my Wife We live in a small village in the UK.   I’m hoping that somewhere out there is someone who has experience or knowledge of the problem that has affected my wife’s sleep for the last four years.  Elaine is 42 years old. The problem is as follows: – She will start to fall asleep, but just as she is dropping off her whole body jerks her awake.  These hypnagogic jerks  often happen in individuals, but normally only once or twice before the person falls asleep.  The problem for my wife is that this process is continuous, with jerks every few seconds preventing her from sleeping at all. Usually when people have these jerks they get a sensation of falling that precedes the jerk but my wife gets repeated jerks without the falling sensation.  She likens it to the needle on a record getting stuck and playing the same tune over and over again. The only way that my wife is able to get any relief from her insomnia is to take the sleeping medication Zopiclone (Zimovane) every night. Unfortunately Elaine needs at least 8 to 9 hours sleep to feel refreshed and not end up walking round like a zombie.  She used to be such a good sleeper and longs to be able to sleep well again of her own accord without having to take the medication. She has never been afraid of falling asleep as she has always found sleep to be a great way of relieving stress. If there is anyone who has suffered the same or knows of the causes/cures for this and can enlighten us I would be over the moon for any information given that would result in Elaine’s insomnia being cured.

Response:

I have sleep apnea so can’t offer eprsonal experience but here is a link to a great site that deals with a myriad of sleep disorders and restless legs syndrome is one I believe. http://www.sleepedu.net/forums/apnea/apneainf.html = = = = = For information regarding Tracheostomy and the treatment of Obstructive Sleep Apnea please visit http://members.aol.com/citylinc/osa/index.htm = = = = = A great sleep forum http://www.sleepedu.net/forums/apnea/apneainf.html

Response:

Question:

  I just changed my 9 yr old son’s dr…..he was on 75mg luvox and 1-1/2 mg risperdal for OCD/ADD/anxiety.    The meds were great for a few months but then it seemed he needed to change (had alot of tantrums, frustration, very impulsive etc) and the old doc wasn’t cooperative and very hard to talk to. Went yesterday to a new one and she changed him from Luvox to Zoloft (we’re reducing Luvox for a week and slowly adding Zoloft).  Also she split up the Risperdal so he takes some in the morning and some at night instead of all at once.  I hope the Zoloft works for him.  Does anyone have any comments about any of these meds, specifically for children?  Thank you Debbie

Response:

  I just changed my 9 yr old son’s dr…..he was on 75mg luvox and 1-1/2 mg risperdal for OCD/ADD/anxiety.    The meds were great for a few months but then it seemed he needed to change (had alot of tantrums, frustration, very impulsive etc) and the old doc wasn’t cooperative and very hard to talk to. Went yesterday to a new one and she changed him from Luvox to Zoloft (we’re reducing Luvox for a week and slowly adding Zoloft).  Also she split up the Risperdal so he takes some in the morning and some at night instead of all at once.  I hope the Zoloft works for him.  Does anyone have any comments about any of these meds, specifically for children?  Thank you Debbie

Sounds like your child is in good hands now. However, no-one wants to do research on the use of psych meds in children and pregnant women, so how these meds are used in these specific patient populations is taken from research done on nonpregnant adults. Chip Before you buy.

Response:

Hello everyone!! just wondering if anyone had this happen to them.  My doc put me on zoloft started at 12 1/2mg for a week then 25mg for 2 weeks then 50mg when i started taking the 50mg it made my heart flutter, so she put me back on 25mg again but it is not doing much for me now she wants me to try the 50mg again and i am scared she said try 25 in the morning then 25mg at night i am scared to do that also any suggestions? I just didnt like my heart doing that and i am scared it is going to happen again HELP Thanks Diana

I must say that your doc isn’t doing this as badly as some other docs do. She realizes that you have to wean on Zoloft slowly and that’s a good thing. Still, between 25 mg and 50 mg there is 37,5 mg. I think it’s advisable to try that first. Moreover it seems advisable to ask for a benzo (Xanax) on the side *as needed* which may help avoid or minimize initial Zoloft side effects like a fluttering heart. I hope you will hang in there as it takes about 8 weeks to be able to properly assess Zoloft’s value for you (but beneficial effect may be felt much earlier). Philip

Response:

Hello everyone!! just wondering if anyone had this happen to them.  My doc put me on zoloft started at 12 1/2mg for a week then 25mg for 2 weeks then 50mg when i started taking the 50mg it made my heart flutter, so she put me back on 25mg again but it is not doing much for me now she wants me to try the 50mg again and i am scared she said try 25 in the morning then 25mg at night i am scared to do that also any suggestions? I just didnt like my heart doing that and i am scared it is going to happen again HELP Thanks Diana

Diana –   I experienced a return of side-effects for a few days with each increased dose of Zoloft…One side effect for me was the shakes, which increased my anxiety and led to a racing heart…I suspect that you perhaps are having a similar experience…You may have to go through a few days of side-effects like this to reach a theraputic dose…And I checked the PDR, heart attack is not listed as a possible side-effect of Zoloft so don’t worry! Later, — Charles Phipps

Response:

WOW!!  My Dr. started me off at 50mg right away..he did not work me up to 50mg..At any rate I had NO side effects at all from Zoloft.. ~But there’s one thing I know…the blues they send to meet me won’t defeat me, it won’t be long till happiness is out to greet me~

Response:

Hello everyone!! just wondering if anyone had this happen to them.  My doc put me on zoloft started at 12 1/2mg for a week then 25mg for 2 weeks then 50mg when i started taking the 50mg it made my heart flutter, so she put me back on 25mg again but it is not doing much for me now she wants me to try the 50mg again and i am scared she said try 25 in the morning then 25mg at night i am scared to do that also any suggestions? I just didnt like my heart doing that and i am scared it is going to happen again HELP Thanks Diana

Response:

Hello everyone!! just wondering if anyone had this happen to them.  My doc put me on zoloft started at 12 1/2mg for a week then 25mg for 2 weeks then 50mg when i started taking the 50mg it made my heart flutter, so she put me back on 25mg again but it is not doing much for me now she wants me to try the 50mg again and i am scared she said try 25 in the morning then 25mg at night i am scared to do that also any suggestions? I just didnt like my heart doing that and i am scared it is going to happen again HELP Thanks Diana

Hi Diana, I have been dealing with those heart flutters on and off for years. I get mine when I am anxious, drink too much coffee, and have PMS. I don`t like them, but they are harmless. You won`t know if you will get  those flutters, unless you try the 50mgs again. There may be a way to lessen that possibility. Instead of going from 25mgs to 50mgs, go to 37.5mgs. Getting to your prescribed dose is not a race. You want to be as comfortable as possible, and if it means going at a slower pace, so then be it. Watch your caffeine consumption too, it can trigger the heart flutters. And if you should get them , remember they will pass and are harmless. Asking your doctor for a benzo might help too. Jackie "Behold the turtle. He makes progress only when he sticks out his head."

Response:

I was started on 25mg of zoloft daily about two weeks ago for anxiety and panic disorder.  The first few days I took it I had some crazy mood swings but those went away after a while.  Lately I’ve had two episodes of depression that I wonder about.  I know that most side effects are supposed to go away but is this something I should talk to my doctor about immediately or should I just try to tough it out and hope that it goes away.  So far it’s been pretty bearable so I think I could get through it.  Any comments on this would be appreciated and any information on zoloft in general would be great.

15 mg if Zoloft is a subtherapeutic dose, it must be raised. The best way to do that is by weekly increments of 12.5 mg to avoid unpleasant side effects: *start low, go slow*. It may take a few weeks but your depression should disappear. So yes, ask your doctor to raise the dose 37.5 mg etc. Philip

Response:

Hi, Jack, I take Zoloft and Clonazepam for depression and anxiety.  25 mg is low so maybe you could call your pdoc and see about a slight increase.  It never hurts to check in with your pdoc and let them know how you are feeling. smiles, Elise

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was started on 25mg of zoloft daily about two weeks ago for anxiety and panic disorder.  The first few days I took it I had some crazy mood swings but those went away after a while.  Lately I’ve had two episodes of depression that I wonder about.  I know that most side effects are supposed to go away but is this something I should talk to my doctor about immediately or should I just try to tough it out and hope that it goes away.  So far it’s been pretty bearable so I think I could get through it.  Any comments on this would be appreciated and any information on zoloft in general would be great.

Response:

I was started on 25mg of zoloft daily about two weeks ago for anxiety and panic disorder.  The first few days I took it I had some crazy mood swings but those went away after a while.  Lately I’ve had two episodes of depression that I wonder about.  I know that most side effects are supposed to go away but is this something I should talk to my doctor about immediately or should I just try to tough it out and hope that it goes away.  So far it’s been pretty bearable so I think I could get through it.  Any comments on this would be appreciated and any information on zoloft in general would be great.

Response:

Hi I have often had tinitus.  On and off.  The doctor once gave me a long story about how it was just a disease.  Its been quite bad lately and I found out in the last few weeks maybe from this newsgroup ( if so I apologize ) that it is caused by aspirin. I have been taking lots of painkillers to help with paxil withdrawals love Moira – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I took Zoloft last fall for anxiety for 2 and 1/2 months. (I got off it because it began to give me night tremors).  However, only after a month on it, my ears started ringing/hissing.  I also had a bad sinus infection at the time and I assumed it was related to that, never thinking the medication would do such a thing (HA–looks like the joke was on me!).  When I related this to my doctor, she never let on that she KNEW some antidepressants caused tinnitus (why not, I am now asking myself) and continued to let me take the drug for 6 more weeks! I’ve been off the Zoloft for 6 weeks now, and I STILL have the ringing/hissing in my ears.  Has anyone ever had this happen?  Is this EVER going to go away?. It drives you crazy and I fear now I’ll have it forever.

Response:

Hi I have often had tinitus.  On and off.  The doctor once gave me a long story

about how it was just a disease.  Its been quite bad lately and I found out

in the last few weeks maybe from this newsgroup ( if so I apologize ) that it is caused by

aspirin. I have been taking lots of painkillers to help with paxil withdrawals

love Moira   Hi Moira, You say you are taking painkillers… what kind?  I have taken many, many different kinds (due to my headaches) and found that Midrin effected my ears horribly.  Could be an additional cause.. Lee feeling silly lately…must be a side effect

Response:

I took Zoloft last fall for anxiety for 2 and 1/2 months. (I got off it because it began to give me night tremors).  However, only after a month on it, my ears started ringing/hissing.  I also had a bad sinus infection at the time and I assumed it was related to that, never thinking the medication would do such a thing (HA–looks like the joke was on me!).  When I related this to my doctor, she never let on that she KNEW some antidepressants caused tinnitus (why not, I am now asking myself) and continued to let me take the drug for 6 more weeks! I’ve been off the Zoloft for 6 weeks now, and I STILL have the ringing/hissing in my ears.  Has anyone ever had this happen?  Is this EVER going to go away?. It drives you crazy and I fear now I’ll have it forever.

For what it’s worth, I, too, suffered from tinnitus while on Zoloft (for a similar period of time as you) before switching to Prozac.  In my case, the tinnitus went away within days of stopping Zoloft.  I wouldn’t give up hope that yours will fade with time too. Good luck, Bob

Response:

I’ve been off the Zoloft for 6 weeks now, and I STILL have the ringing/hissing in my ears.  Has anyone ever had this happen?  Is this EVER going to go away?. It drives you crazy and I fear now I’ll have it forever.

For what it’s worth, I, too, suffered from tinnitus while on Zoloft (for

a similar period of time as you) before switching to Prozac.  In my

case, the tinnitus went away within days of stopping Zoloft.  I wouldn’t

give up hope that yours will fade with time too.  (piggybacking on Bob)  I had a similar problem with a different med altogether.  I think it was Midrin.  It went away for the most part.  It still happens occasionally, but not on a constant basis.   If it keeps up, you should mention it to your doctor, or go to a specialist. Lee feeling silly lately…must be a side effect

Response:

I took Zoloft last fall for anxiety for 2 and 1/2 months. (I got off it because it began to give me night tremors).  However, only after a month on it, my ears started ringing/hissing.  I also had a bad sinus infection at the time and I assumed it was related to that, never thinking the medication would do such a thing (HA–looks like the joke was on me!).  When I related this to my doctor, she never let on that she KNEW some antidepressants caused tinnitus (why not, I am now asking myself) and continued to let me take the drug for 6 more weeks!   I’ve been off the Zoloft for 6 weeks now, and I STILL have the ringing/hissing in my ears.  Has anyone ever had this happen?  Is this EVER going to go away?. It drives you crazy and I fear now I’ll have it forever.  

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Tom,     Welcome to ASAP. I’m 21 and diagnosed with manic depression, anxiety, panic attacks, ocd.. and now I’m beginning to wonder about something else, but anyways, the reason for your post and mine.     I’ve been on Zoloft since mid-October. I started on 25mg, two weeks later increased to 50mg, and then two weeks after that 100mg. I finally gained some control over my "problems." I was taken off Zoloft and put on Celexa for a 6 week rollercoaster. I’m back on the Zoloft, and have been since February. I’m up to 200mg a day.     Now, I have little side effects. In the beginning I had a lot of side effects, those you listed, extreme dry mouth, but not the rash and I still have a hard time getting out of bed at a decent hour, I have to keep myself on a very strict sleep pattern, or when I get off of it, I don’t go to bed until 2,3,4am, then never make it up in time to make it to work by 8:30am. And yes, the decreased sex drive is a pain.     Are you taking anything with the Zoloft? I was taking 100mg Zoloft and 4mg Xanax daily, now I’m on 200mg Zoloft and 3mg Klonopin daily. That might also explain the rash, and the waking up thing.     Hope this is of some help for you. Much Love, Brooke Hi Brooke, Do you take anything for the manic depression? Chip

No, because it rarely rears its ugly head, the manic side at least.. it’s often usually just regular old depression, however, we are keeping an eye on it (Daily journal of what’s going on and keeping track of how often the manic side rears up). The pdoc is really concerned with me hiding my depression from people as well as I do, so he wants to try and get that and the anxiety all under control. Much Love, Brooke PS I think the Klonopin helps with the manic too… that’s just my thought. Since I’ve switched from xanax to Klonopin I’ve had a lot fewer manic episodes. B.

Response:

Hi Tom,     Welcome to ASAP. I’m 21 and diagnosed with manic depression, anxiety, panic attacks, ocd.. and now I’m beginning to wonder about something else, but anyways, the reason for your post and mine.     I’ve been on Zoloft since mid-October. I started on 25mg, two weeks later increased to 50mg, and then two weeks after that 100mg. I finally gained some control over my "problems." I was taken off Zoloft and put on Celexa for a 6 week rollercoaster. I’m back on the Zoloft, and have been since February. I’m up to 200mg a day.     Now, I have little side effects. In the beginning I had a lot of side effects, those you listed, extreme dry mouth, but not the rash and I still have a hard time getting out of bed at a decent hour, I have to keep myself on a very strict sleep pattern, or when I get off of it, I don’t go to bed until 2,3,4am, then never make it up in time to make it to work by 8:30am. And yes, the decreased sex drive is a pain.     Are you taking anything with the Zoloft? I was taking 100mg Zoloft and 4mg Xanax daily, now I’m on 200mg Zoloft and 3mg Klonopin daily. That might also explain the rash, and the waking up thing.     Hope this is of some help for you. Much Love, Brooke

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am new to the group and am interpreted if people can give me any feed back on Zoloft. I started on Zoloft and two months ago after about of panic and depressive episodes. Though the attacks had seemed to be lessening, it seemed to make sense at the time to treat them to prevent a reoccurrence. The first two weeks were difficult on Xanax and brought back the panic as well as diarrhea, stomach upset, heart palpitations, but these went away and I began to increase my dosage from 25mg to the doctor recommended 50mg. I can’t say I feel that much better and am wondering whether these are side effects. I knew about the decreased sex drive and can probably handle that. One major difference is that I used to wake up early in the morning with a feeling of anxiety and now I can hardly drag myself out of bed at a normal time. I also experience frequent headaches as if my head and nose is pinched. I also am putting on weight. Also wondering about the rash that appeared unexpectedly on my arms (though this could be from something else; it is pretty mild.) Do these sound familiar to anyone? I also am wondering about the dosage of 50mg since I felt pretty good on 25mg and have heard that is a standard dosage. Any thoughts about decreasing dosage? — Tom Semmes 301-530-9586 Fax 301-530-9587

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Tom,     Welcome to ASAP. I’m 21 and diagnosed with manic depression, anxiety, panic attacks, ocd.. and now I’m beginning to wonder about something else, but anyways, the reason for your post and mine.     I’ve been on Zoloft since mid-October. I started on 25mg, two weeks later increased to 50mg, and then two weeks after that 100mg. I finally gained some control over my "problems." I was taken off Zoloft and put on Celexa for a 6 week rollercoaster. I’m back on the Zoloft, and have been since February. I’m up to 200mg a day.     Now, I have little side effects. In the beginning I had a lot of side effects, those you listed, extreme dry mouth, but not the rash and I still have a hard time getting out of bed at a decent hour, I have to keep myself on a very strict sleep pattern, or when I get off of it, I don’t go to bed until 2,3,4am, then never make it up in time to make it to work by 8:30am. And yes, the decreased sex drive is a pain.     Are you taking anything with the Zoloft? I was taking 100mg Zoloft and 4mg Xanax daily, now I’m on 200mg Zoloft and 3mg Klonopin daily. That might also explain the rash, and the waking up thing.     Hope this is of some help for you. Much Love, Brooke

Hi Brooke, Do you take anything for the manic depression? Chip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am new to the group and am interpreted if people can give me any feed back on Zoloft. I started on Zoloft and two months ago after about of panic and depressive episodes. Though the attacks had seemed to be lessening, it seemed to make sense at the time to treat them to prevent a reoccurrence. The first two weeks were difficult on Xanax and brought back the panic as well as diarrhea, stomach upset, heart palpitations, but these went away and I began to increase my dosage from 25mg to the doctor recommended 50mg. I can’t say I feel that much better and am wondering whether these are side effects. I knew about the decreased sex drive and can probably handle that. One major difference is that I used to wake up early in the morning with a feeling of anxiety and now I can hardly drag myself out of bed at a normal time. I also experience frequent headaches as if my head and nose is pinched. I also am putting on weight. Also wondering about the rash that appeared unexpectedly on my arms (though this could be from something else; it is pretty mild.) Do these sound familiar to anyone? I also am wondering about the dosage of 50mg since I felt pretty good on 25mg and have heard that is a standard dosage. Any thoughts about decreasing dosage? — Tom Semmes 301-530-9586 Fax 301-530-9587

Response:

I am new to the group and am interpreted if people can give me any feed back on Zoloft. I started on Zoloft and two months ago after about of panic and depressive episodes. Though the attacks had seemed to be lessening, it seemed to make sense at the time to treat them to prevent a reoccurrence. The first two weeks were difficult on Xanax and brought back the panic as well as diarrhea, stomach upset, heart palpitations, but these went away and I began to increase my dosage from 25mg to the doctor recommended 50mg. I can’t say I feel that much better and am wondering whether these are side effects.

Yes, these are common side effects from weaning on Zoloft and should be temporary. I knew about the decreased sex drive and can probably handle that. One major difference is that I used to wake up early in the morning with a feeling of anxiety and now I can hardly drag myself out of bed at a normal time. I also experience frequent headaches as if my head and nose is pinched. I also am putting on weight. Also wondering about the rash that appeared unexpectedly on my arms (though this could be from something else; it is pretty mild.) Do these sound familiar to anyone?

These can all be side effects, the headaches should be temporary. I also am wondering about the dosage of /50mg since I felt pretty good on 25mg and have heard that is a standard dosage. Any thoughts about decreasing dosage?

On the contrary you may not have noticed much positive change because you’re on a subtherapeutic dose. I think you should consult your doctor (hopefully a psychiatrist with some knowledge of anxiety disorders and not a GP…) about raising the dose. However, the best way to do this is in increments of 12.5 mg in order to avoid or minimize side effects caused by the dose increase. Having a benzo like Xanax or Ativan on the side to take *as needed* may be helpful too. Philip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text — Tom Semmes 301-530-9586 Fax 301-530-9587

Response:

I am new to the group and am interpreted if people can give me any feed back on Zoloft. I started on Zoloft and two months ago after about of panic and depressive episodes. Though the attacks had seemed to be lessening, it seemed to make sense at the time to treat them to prevent a reoccurrence. The first two weeks were difficult on Xanax and brought back the panic as well as diarrhea, stomach upset, heart palpitations, but these went away and I began to increase my dosage from 25mg to the doctor recommended 50mg. I can’t say I feel that much better and am wondering whether these are side effects. I knew about the decreased sex drive and can probably handle that. One major difference is that I used to wake up early in the morning with a feeling of anxiety and now I can hardly drag myself out of bed at a normal time. I also experience frequent headaches as if my head and nose is pinched. I also am putting on weight. Also wondering about the rash that appeared unexpectedly on my arms (though this could be from something else; it is pretty mild.) Do these sound familiar to anyone? I also am wondering about the dosage of 50mg since I felt pretty good on 25mg and have heard that is a standard dosage. Any thoughts about decreasing dosage? — Tom Semmes 301-530-9586 Fax 301-530-9587

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I am new to the group and am interpreted if people can give me any feed back on Zoloft. I started on Zoloft and two months ago after about of panic and depressive episodes. Though the attacks had seemed to be lessening, it seemed to make sense at the time to treat them to prevent a reoccurrence. The first two weeks were difficult on Xanax and brought back the panic as well as diarrhea, stomach upset, heart palpitations, but these went away and I began to increase my dosage from 25mg to the doctor recommended 50mg. I can’t say I feel that much better and am wondering whether these are side effects. I knew about the decreased sex drive and can probably handle that. One major difference is that I used to wake up early in the morning with a feeling of anxiety and now I can hardly drag myself out of bed at a normal time. I also experience frequent headaches as if my head and nose is pinched. I also am putting on weight. Also wondering about the rash that appeared unexpectedly on my arms (though this could be from something else; it is pretty mild.) Do these sound familiar to anyone? I also am wondering about the dosage of 50mg since I felt pretty good on 25mg and have heard that is a standard dosage. Any thoughts about decreasing dosage?

Hi Tom, Welcome to ASAP! Alot of the symptoms you mentioned liked headache, weight gain and fatigue are side-effects of Zoloft. You could try going down to 25mgs ( ask your doctor first)  to see if the side-effects decrease but there is a good chance that 25mgs would not be enough to control your anxiety. The therapeutic dose of Zoloft is 100 to 200mgs, although there are people that do well on lower doses. It is also possible that better. Only you know what side-effects you are willing to tolerate or not tolerate. It is important that you talk to your doctor about what is going on so something can be done to help you. Take care Jackie ~*~When you get to the end of all the light you know and it’s time to step into the darkness of the unknown, faith is knowing that one of two things shall happen: either you will be given something solid to stand on, or you will be taughhow to fly~*~

Response:

My friend has an anxiety disorder-was recently prescribled 50 mg of Zoloft to take in the a.m.  She finds that she is very tired and ready for sleep around 2:30 p.m.   Is 50mg of Zoloft/day normally prescribed?  She’s complains of feeling too sedated. Thanks in advance for your response.  :0) Jennifer

Response:

: :My friend has an anxiety disorder-was recently prescribled 50 mg of Zoloft to :take in the a.m.  She finds that she is very tired and ready for sleep around :2:30 p.m.   : :Is 50mg of Zoloft/day normally prescribed?  She’s complains of feeling too :sedated. : :Thanks in advance for your response.  :0) Dear Jennifer, Welcome to ASAP! Some people do well on 50mgs of Zoloft, others do well on 100mgs and then person to person. Sedation and feeling tired are common side-effects of antidepressants which is why it`s so important for people with anxiety disorder to start antidepressants at a low dose (zoloft would be12.5 or 25mgs) and to wean slowly (with Zoloft increasing the dose in 12.5 or 25 mg increments once a week or so). We tend to be sensitive to the side-effects of medication. Had your friend started Zoloft at 12.5 mg or even 25mgs the sedation may not have been so bad. She could try to stick this side-effect out, it might start to diminish once her body adjusts to the 50mgs. If she finds this side-effect is just too much for her, she should call her doctor and ask to lower her dose. Take care Jackie ~*~Do unto others as though you were the others~*~

Response:

My friend has an anxiety disorder-was recently prescribled 50 mg of Zoloft to take in the a.m.  She finds that she is very tired and ready for sleep around 2:30 p.m. Is 50mg of Zoloft/day normally prescribed?  She’s complains of feeling too sedated. Thanks in advance for your response.  :0) Jennifer

If her sleepiness is due to the Zoloft, she could try 25 mg/day for awhile, and then raise the dose. Chip

Response:

I definitely agree with lowering the dose initially. She could also try taking the 50mg at bedtime. Zoloft is one of those medications that usually must build up in the system over at least two weeks and it doesn’t really matter if you take it in the morning or at bedtime. Often it is just trial and error to find the regime that works best. Good luck, Russ,  M.D.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My friend has an anxiety disorder-was recently prescribled 50 mg of Zoloft to take in the a.m.  She finds that she is very tired and ready for sleep around 2:30 p.m. Is 50mg of Zoloft/day normally prescribed?  She’s complains of feeling too sedated. Thanks in advance for your response.  :0) Jennifer

Response:

WHATS the story with Zoloft.Ive been on it for a week and still don,t feel any better.Please email me your xperiences with zoloft.Does it take a long time to work.  I DON,T want to give up on it yet I am taking 150mg a day Time wounds all heels!! Generally it takes up to 6 weeks for antidepressants to work.  Some though are fortunate that feel "something" happening by the end of the first week. Don’t give up.  Keep it up. I thought you might have written in another post about difficulty getting an orgasm.  This is experienced with SSRIs, and when it comes so soon after initiation of treatment it is more than likely due to that.  Let your MD know and he may want to change to another SSRI or some other antidepressant that does not have this side effect. kksoo

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Major Impact schreef: WHATS the story with Zoloft.Ive been on it for a week and still don,t feel any better.Please email me your xperiences with zoloft.Does it take a long time to work.  I DON,T want to give up on it yet I am taking 150mg a day Time wounds all heels!!

Alkthough I don’t have experiences with Zoloft I did take three other meds from the same (SSRI) group of antidepressants. These have in common that it may take awhile (anything up from 2-10 weeks) to take effect. So take that time to give the med a chance. After a week it’s already a very good sign that you experienced no side effects or heightened anxiety. This may well be the right med for you! Philip Peters – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –                                                                                                                                                l

Response:

WHATS the story with Zoloft.Ive been on it for a week and still don,t feel any better.Please email me your xperiences with zoloft.Does it take a long time to work.  I DON,T want to give up on it yet I am taking 150mg a day Time wounds all heels!!                                                                                                                                                    l        

Response:

  my 9 yr old son is taking zoloft..he started at 25mg the first week, now the 2nd week is up to 50 mg.  A little while after he takes it he says he feels hot and his head feels funny.  The whole day he is fine and it is really helping his impulsiveness, frustration and tantrums…these traits have nearly disappeared.  I am going to ask the doctor about it but is this normal?  He just was weaned off of Luvox at the same time he started the Zoloft. Debbie

Response:

my 9 yr old son is taking zoloft..he started at 25mg the first week, now the 2nd week is up to 50 mg.  A little while after he takes it he says he feels hot and his head feels funny.  The whole day he is fine and it is really helping his impulsiveness, frustration and tantrums…these traits have nearly disappeared.  I am going to ask the doctor about it but is this normal?  He just was weaned off of Luvox at the same time he started the Zoloft. Debbie

Hi Debbie, Zoloft can cause sweating and headaches and that could be what your son is experiencing. I would mention this to the doctor, it should go away in a few weeks and appears to be mild, so I wouldn`t worry. That is wonderful that Zoloft has helped your son so much ) Take care!! Jackie

Response:

Hopefully the side effects will go away. I had a really bad time on zoloft. Things did get better but I only took it for two days becuase I could not go to work. So mabe I’ll give a go when I have some space. Incidentally my doc said that the minumum dose was 50mg and that’s what I started on. I am in the UK, but this cannot be right. I think I may purchase myself a pill cutter — And god said. Let there be light. And there was light. But the darkness crept over me. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  my 9 yr old son is taking zoloft..he started at 25mg the first week, now the 2nd week is up to 50 mg.  A little while after he takes it he says he feels hot and his head feels funny.  The whole day he is fine and it is really helping his impulsiveness, frustration and tantrums…these traits have nearly disappeared.  I am going to ask the doctor about it but is this normal?  He just was weaned off of Luvox at the same time he started the Zoloft. Debbie

Response:

I had the same symptoms the first couple of days after switching from Paxil. went to 50 the second week. Felt it for a while the first day of 50, but not since. Good luck to your son. Lee

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – my 9 yr old son is taking zoloft..he started at 25mg the first week, now the 2nd week is up to 50 mg.  A little while after he takes it he says he feels hot and his head feels funny.  The whole day he is fine and it is really helping his impulsiveness, frustration and tantrums…these traits have nearly disappeared.  I am going to ask the doctor about it but is this normal?  He just was weaned off of Luvox at the same time he started the Zoloft. Debbie Hi Debbie, Zoloft can cause sweating and headaches and that could be what your son is experiencing. I would mention this to the doctor, it should go away in a few weeks and appears to be mild, so I wouldn`t worry. That is wonderful that Zoloft has helped your son so much ) Take care!! Jackie

Response:

Hopefully the side effects will go away. I had a really bad time on zoloft. Things did get better but I only took it for two days becuase I could not go to work. So mabe I’ll give a go when I have some space. Incidentally my doc said that the minumum dose was 50mg and that’s what I started on. I am in the UK, but this cannot be right. I think I may purchase myself a pill cutter

Oh yes, the UK where psychiatry still has to be invented…. 12.5 mg is the recommended starting dose (half a 25 mg tab), 25 mg may be managed but 50 mg is cruelty! Philip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — And god said. Let there be light. And there was light. But the darkness crept over me.  my 9 yr old son is taking zoloft..he started at 25mg the first week, now the 2nd week is up to 50 mg.  A little while after he takes it he says he feels hot and his head feels funny.  The whole day he is fine and it is really helping his impulsiveness, frustration and tantrums…these traits have nearly disappeared.  I am going to ask the doctor about it but is this normal?  He just was weaned off of Luvox at the same time he started the Zoloft. Debbie

Response:

Oh yes, the UK where psychiatry still has to be invented…. Philip —

Not true!!! My shrink has a certificate of competence signed by no less a person than Noah (of Ark fame).  Must admit though I was a bit worried by the Thioridazine he gave me.  I could just make out on the label that it was best before 3000 BC — Jon Guite Live support and chat for anxiety and panic disorders at the #anx/pan chat room in Dalnet.  For details see http://www.skcldv.demon.co.uk/anxpanw.htm

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LEJ351 schreef: how long did it take for you to start feeling better?  I am only at 2 weeks and am still strugggling with insomnia, lack of appetite and  an acidic stomach.  I also use ativan as needed

Hopefully the Ativan will take you through these weeks as your body is adjusting to Zoloft. You should give Zoloft between 6-8 weeks to be able to evaluate its effect, but it’s entirely possible that you will feel better sooner than that. Philip

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I recently began taking zoloft and have never felt better.  I am curious why it seem many people take zoloft and xanax combo.  Does this help to alleviate some side effects?

Response:

I recently began taking zoloft and have never felt better.  I am curious why it seem many people take zoloft and xanax combo.  Does this help to alleviate some side effects?

It does but when you don’t need it, so much the better! Glad it works! Philip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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how long did it take for you to start feeling better?  I am only at 2 weeks and am still strugggling with insomnia, lack of appetite and  an acidic stomach.  I also use ativan as needed

Response:

how long did it take for you to start feeling better?  I am only at 2 weeks and am still strugggling with insomnia, lack of appetite and  an acidic stomach.  I also use ativan as needed

Hi: I am on ZOloft 25mg a day, and klonipin 3mg a day (all at bedtime)  I take benadryl 50mg PRN if I can’t get to sleep. For your stomach acidity, I had the same problem, and a simple dose of Zantac 75 (available without prescription) works wonders for the acid problem..in fact..NO problem!!!..It also doesn’t have any side effects. My pdoc lowered my Zoloft prescription after I found it caused too many side effects. At 25 mg’s at bedtime, it works wonders. I’ve been on it about a month now. Again, the benadryl as per needed, (even if I have to take it every second night!!) works great to knock off to sleep. Most impotantly, it keeps my sleep pattern regular.(ie. don’t sleep all day, and stay awake all night, which was my problem before I took the benadryl) Also, Gravol is simular to Benadryl, but a little bit milder, so may also want to consider this. These are non-prescription drugs, so you can take a shot yourself, and if they work..GREAT!! They’ve worked for me, and I’ve heard they worked well for many other, but, just try, as YMMV… Best of luck.. James — "All of us get lost in the darkness… Dreamers learn to stear by the stars.." Neil Peart, Rush, "The Pass"

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Question:

  I usually wake up after 4 or 5 hours (usually to go to the bathroom), and can*t get back to sleep.  My doctor has me on Zoloft for anxiety and Trazadone for insomnia.  These help, but I don*t think he can find anything else wrong with me (I exercise, there*s no stress in my life, I don*t work shifts, I don*t do drugs, I feel great, etc).  Sometimes my mind races, and I can*t shut it off.  I*m afraid of more powerful drugs.  I*ve tried relaxation, but thought it was dumb.  My (ex)psychologist suggested computerized biofeedback.  (I*m dealing with the insurance now)  I D E A S ? T H A N K S

Response:

I tend to do that a lot too, but when I take a xanax before bed, I never wake up before I’m supposed to, and I have many very clear dreams that I always remember.  It’s a huge difference.  YMMV. -deb

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You just explained me to a TEE, unfortunately. I am on the Trazodone for day #3 now, and Zoloft for 3 years. I thought the Trazadone would be alot easier on me than it is. I am EXHAUSTED! I dont know whether my body is just making up for all the sleep deprivation all of this time or what, but I cannot wake-up all this weekend. I feel like I have been weighted down with bricks…I am questioning which is the lesser of two evils: staying up all night, having nightmares and twilight sleep when I can sleep, or this damned Trazadone. I am ready to call it quits to everything! Geesh! I find myself angry with everyone right now. I keep thinking my counsellor is good, helpful, knowledgeable… Okay, so why cant I seem to get better? Two and a half years ago of Zoloft I was about 90% panic free. Now, I am upping dosages, taking more meds, feeling like I am crazy, taking my frustration out on anyone within shouting distance (Including the jerk who had the AUDACITY to steal my parking spot!). I feel like I am on this constant spiral downward lately, and no matter how much I want to believe I am going to be on the "up" side, it doesnt happen. I had one small success recently, and even that isnt enough to help me. I am depressed, I cry at the drop of a hat… Tonight was so bad any slightest noise went straight for my spine and reverbarated (SP?) the whole way. Hard to have peace and quiet with little ones running aorund…My kids jokingly call me the grump now. It isnt funny any more. I dont enjoy anything, I dont want to go anywhere, I sit and cry, and that is all… Why bother going out? RIght now it is better to hide, which is scary- been there, done that– told myself I would never go down to that level again. My husband was always my biggest support person and now even he is losing his patience with me,… I dont understand how other people seem to handle this. Whats worse, the depression, the panic, the combonation of the two?… I am sick of hearing myself moan groan and complain. I find myself always apologising for being such a broken record….Good Lord, how much is my family supposed to take of me?? I dont know the answer to your question about stronger meds. I wanted to try something like Xanax or Ativan, but I was told no, they were too habit forming… What are we to do?? I havent a clue! When you find an answer, be sure to let me in on the secret, wont you???? Wishing you the best of luck!! — Miriam The Complainer    (These opinions are mine and mine alone… YMMV) It’s hard to make a comeback when you haven’t been anywhere.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   I usually wake up after 4 or 5 hours (usually to go to the bathroom), and can*t get back to sleep.  My doctor has me on Zoloft for anxiety and Trazadone for insomnia.  These help, but I don*t think he can find anything else wrong with me (I exercise, there*s no stress in my life, I don*t work shifts, I don*t do drugs, I feel great, etc).  Sometimes my mind races, and I can*t shut it off.  I*m afraid of more powerful drugs.     I*ve tried relaxation, but thought it was dumb.  My (ex)psychologist suggested computerized biofeedback.  (I*m dealing with the insurance now)  I D E A S ? T H A N K S

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  I usually wake up after 4 or 5 hours (usually to go to the bathroom), and can*t get back to sleep.  My doctor has me on Zoloft for anxiety and Trazadone for insomnia.  These help, but I don*t think he can find anything else wrong with me (I exercise, there*s no stress in my life, I don*t work shifts, I don*t do drugs, I feel great, etc).  Sometimes my mind races, and I can*t shut it off.  I*m afraid of more powerful drugs.  I*ve tried relaxation, but thought it was dumb.  My (ex)psychologist suggested computerized biofeedback.  (I*m dealing with the insurance now)  I D E A S ? T H A N K S

I think, if it were me, I’d go back to my doctor and have a complete review of my treatment. You don’t say whether it has been effective for your anxiety but, assuming it has been, there must be more effective sleeping aids s/he could give you. This ‘racing mind syndrome’ is something I suffer from too and it’s a swine, I know. I do find that a benzo knocks it right out, but I’m not sure whether I’d be willing to use one to do that on a very regular basis. Then again, sleep does seem to be quite dependent on patterns and habits so might it be that if you could re-establish a new sleeping pattern with occasional use of a benzo, that might help? Just a thought, FWIW — Gary Cooper

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I know how you feel.  I had the same problem for two months.  I have two pieces of advice for you. 1. set up a normal sleep time and stick to it. go to bed and wake at the same time every day.  I found this a real pain, since I would sometimes find myself lying in bed somewhere between asleep and wide awake for a couple of hours.  2.  Keep your house as cool as possible, this one really helps me.  It sucks when you get the electric bill, but I find the extra money worth it.  I believe the book that I read said between 60 and 70.  I keep mine at 70, at night. I am not saying that you still wont wake up to go to the bathroom (when you gotta go you gotta go!). What I am saying you should get a little more consistent about falling back to sleep. of course YMMV and IMO. This took me about a month or so, but it really helped. Good luck d – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   I usually wake up after 4 or 5 hours (usually to go to the bathroom), and can*t get back to sleep.  My doctor has me on Zoloft for anxiety and Trazadone for insomnia.  These help, but I don*t think he can find anything else wrong with me (I exercise, there*s no stress in my life, I don*t work shifts, I don*t do drugs, I feel great, etc).  Sometimes my mind races, and I can*t shut it off.  I*m afraid of more powerful drugs.     I*ve tried relaxation, but thought it was dumb.  My (ex)psychologist suggested computerized biofeedback.  (I*m dealing with the insurance now)  I D E A S ? T H A N K S

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  I usually wake up after 4 or 5 hours (usually to go to the bathroom), and can*t get back to sleep.  My doctor has me on Zoloft for anxiety and Trazadone for insomnia.  These help, but I don*t think he can find anything else wrong with me (I exercise, there*s no stress in my life, I don*t work shifts, I don*t do drugs, I feel great, etc).  Sometimes my mind races, and I can*t shut it off.  I*m afraid of more powerful drugs.  I*ve tried relaxation, but thought it was dumb.  My (ex)psychologist suggested computerized biofeedback.  (I*m dealing with the insurance now)  I D E A S ? T H A N K S

Used to have this problem until I started taking Klonopin (3mgs per day) and Xanax (.25 to 1 mg. per day) Now, I sleep very well. I rarely wake up before I am "supposed to". I alos no longer have nocturnal panic attacks, which had plagued me since I was 16 (38 now). The other benefit is that I was diagnosed withfibromyalgia a few years back. The symptoms are worse with interrupted sleep. I no longer have symptoms since being on the meds. I also have no side-effects from the meds. Best Wishes, Jen

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I’m afraid I can’t offer much advice but I can empathize with your experience. I sometimes wake up in the middle night with my stress meter fully pegged. It doesn’t sound like much, but I have found that if I concentrate on asking myself why I would need to feel so stressed I am able to eventually ease back down. josh   I usually wake up after 4 or 5 hours (usually to go to the bathroom), and can*t get back to sleep.  My doctor has me on Zoloft for anxiety and Trazadone for insomnia.  These help, but I don*t think he can find anything else wrong with me (I exercise, there*s no stress in my life, I don*t work shifts, I don*t do drugs, I feel great, etc).  Sometimes my mind races, and I can*t shut it off. — Gary Cooper

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In article <   I usually wake up after 4 or 5 hours (usually to go to the bathroom), and can*t get back to sleep.  My doctor has me on Zoloft for anxiety and Trazadone for insomnia.  These help, but I don*t think he can find anything else wrong with me (I exercise, there*s no stress in my life, I don*t work shifts, I don*t do drugs, I feel great, etc).  Sometimes my mind races, and I can*t shut it off.  I*m afraid of more powerful drugs.     I*ve tried relaxation, but thought it was dumb.  My (ex)psychologist suggested computerized biofeedback.  (I*m dealing with the insurance now)  I D E A S ? T H A N K S

This person’s an idiot-"I DONT DO DRUGS" – of course you do!-ZOLOFT/coffee and who knows how many wines/beers a week they consume, much less cigarettes!!!

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