Question:

Has anyone noticed irritability as being a side effect of the flovent???? predisone?? Smile…and have a nice day!!

Yes and yes. Irritability can be a side effect of steroids, and High Dose inhaled steroids, like Flovent 220  4 pf/day, is roughly equivalent to around 5 mg pred (per my allergist) So the idea is to use steroid sparing drugs; like Serevent, Intal, TheoDur, Singulair. I use all of them. Cuts the inhaled steroids required by a factor of 2 or more. Its not as complicated as it may look; I take my drugs twice a day; the only thing I carry with me is a Ventolin inhaler for rescue or exercise, which I rarely use. Also to use a Peak Flow Meter and adjust inhaled steroids up and down as necessary, to stay in Green Zone, per Action Plan. Not just take a big dose of steroids all the time. At least this works for me and keeps me out of ER. Ellis

Response:

Has anyone noticed irritability as being a side effect of the flovent???? predisone?? Smile…and have a nice day!!

Response:

Could someone please comment on Lynda’s schedule to the ng? I was told to take Flovent 220, 3-5 min. after the Serevent. Thanks very much.           April – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m still learning about how to take all the inhalers. I got Flovent added to my Serevent yesterday. Doc said "don’t take them together," but didn’t say how far apart. I called the pharmacist who looked it up and decided that 2 hours apart was appropriate. So I’ve got this weird schedule that looks like this: 9 a.m.        1 puff Serevent 11 a.m.       2 puffs Flovent 4 p.m.        1 puff Serevent 6 p.m.         1 puff Albuterol (15 mins before treadmill) 8 p.m.         1 puff Serevent 10 p.m.       2 puffs Flovent Lynda

Response:

t… I’m still learning about how to take all the inhalers. I got Flovent added to my Serevent yesterday. Doc said "don’t take them together," but didn’t say how far apart. I called the pharmacist who looked it up and decided that 2 hours apart was appropriate. So I’ve got this weird schedule that looks like this:

Yes, and Serevent has to be taken first. It is better to take 2 puffs x2 times a day rather than a combination of 1 puff of Serevent plus Albuterol. if you take 1 puff of Serevent, the drug concentration doesn’t reach the necessary level with one puff. 2 puffs is the best proven alternative. The best is to take steroids 2-3 hours after Serevent. At that time, Serevent is in its full action, the bronchodilation is maximal and it will allow more steroids pass to the farthest parts of your bronchi (which is very important). Regards, — Andrey Zenovich University of Minnesota Minneapolis, MN 55455 USA – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 9 a.m.        1 puff Serevent 11 a.m.       2 puffs Flovent 4 p.m.        1 puff Serevent 6 p.m.         1 puff Albuterol (15 mins before treadmill) 8 p.m.         1 puff Serevent 10 p.m.       2 puffs Flovent Doc isn’t sure if my asthma is from allergies or from years of taking an NSAID. I haven’t taken my NSAID in 3 days; we’re trying to rule out causes. If it’s NOT the NSAID, and it turns out to be allergies, I’m heading back for shots. Trying  to keep the above schedule is mind-boggling. I hope, in my case, this is temporary, but I sure have developed a great deal of sympathy for you folks who have always lived with this. Lynda

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I was told 20 minutes.  I know that if my peak flow is in the yellow, I retake it after the about 20 later, and if the Servent is going to work my peak flow is up.

Response:

As I read the chart in the serevent prescription insert, it achieves a level equal to albuterol in one hour, and proceeds to increase in effectiveness up through 4 hours, gradually declining thereafter. With albuterol, the onset of action is quicker, and usually it was recommended to do the steroid inhaler 5-15 minutes later, as the bronchials would be beginning to dilate and there would be no irritation factor from the number of inhalations.  Thus, I would think at least one hour would be suitable for serevent, perhaps two even better,  but there is a judgment call here and some room to spare either way..  I am not a doctor, just someone who has lived with asthma for nearly 30 years.

Response:

April, I also use my inhaled steroid 3-5 min. after using Serevent; which means I can leave my steroid and Serevent inhalers at home since they are only used first thing in the morning and 12 hours later in the evening; which is the recommendation for most inhaled steroids and Serevent. It takes Serevent 15 minutes to take effect so the sequence with the steroid isn’t all that important; of course if one has the time it would be more effective to first use the Serevent, wait 15 minutes, then take the inhaled steroid. Serevent may not take full effect for up to 3 hours so an even longer wait than 15 minutes would be even better. But this kind of thinking gets us to Lynda’s schedule. Lynda’s schedule seems to be set up to optimize the drugs effects without thought of patient compliance with such a complex sequence. It also means Lynda has to carry a bag of drugs around with her, instead of just the albuterol inhaler. Usually Serevent is taken 2 puffs twice a day at 12 hr intervals. Linda is using 3 puffs/day; there is some rational in scheduling the 3rd puff 2 hr before her treadmill workout, since Serevent can help exercise-induced asthma; but 1 or 2 puffs of albuterol should do the same thing, and she’s already using 1 puff albuterol. So Linda should probably check with her doctor what he meant; I think the pharmacist is only using the prescribing information to give an answer; which doesn’t take into account the latest asthma protocols like the 1997 Expert Panel Report 2. An example of this conflict is the prescribing information for albuterol which recommends 2 puffs 4 times/day; this used to be the protocol for asthmatics; but the new asthma guidelines (EPR2) recommend albuterol no longer be used for maintenence, only as needed for rescue or exercise. The doctor prescribes per the asthma guideline protocol, not necessarily per the prescribing info that comes with the drug. Also its not clear why Lynda, with her Severe asthma, is only using 3 puffs/day of Serevent instead of 4; perhaps she has an adverse reaction to the Serevent when used 2 puffs at a time. If this is the case, the 3rd puff in the middle of the day makes sense. Ellis (not a doctor, but I read the PIs and EPR2) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Could someone please comment on Lynda’s schedule to the ng? I was told to take Flovent 220, 3-5 min. after the Serevent. Thanks very much.           April I’m still learning about how to take all the inhalers. I got Flovent added to my Serevent yesterday. Doc said "don’t take them together," but didn’t say how far apart. I called the pharmacist who looked it up and decided that 2 hours apart was appropriate. So I’ve got this weird schedule that looks like this: 9 a.m.        1 puff Serevent 11 a.m.       2 puffs Flovent 4 p.m.        1 puff Serevent 6 p.m.         1 puff Albuterol (15 mins before treadmill) 8 p.m.         1 puff Serevent 10 p.m.       2 puffs Flovent Lynda

Response:

The thought behind taking the bronchodilators  first is that they open the airways and let more of the anti-inflammatories deeper into the respiratory tree. This is a theoretical and very fine point that has never really been even looked at much less investigated. In the case of albuterol the onset of action is fast enough that it makes some sense. In the case of Serevent you would have to wait 1-2 hours to have the Serevent open the airways any appreciable amount. The important thing is to use some common sense. If you are breathing comfortably and not in the midst of an attack you will get the inhaled steroid deep into the lungs. Any benefit from waiting the 2 hours would be marginal at best. If you are having an attack sufficient that the movement of air is impaired then you should not be sitting at home taking Serevent. You should be using a quick acting agent, like albuterol, and contacting your doctor or implementing your action plan. One other point; the usual dosage of Serevent is 2 puffs twice per day. The three times per day dosing doesn’t make sense to me. — Good Luck, CBI, M.D.

t… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -So the idea is to use steroid sparing drugs; like Serevent, Intal, TheoDur, Singulair. I use all of them. Cuts the inhaled steroids required by a factor of 2 or more. Its not as complicated as it may look; I take my drugs twice a day; the only thing I carry with me is a Ventolin inhaler for rescue or exercise, which I rarely use. I’m still learning about how to take all the inhalers. I got Flovent added to my Serevent yesterday. Doc said "don’t take them together," but didn’t say how far apart. I called the pharmacist who looked it up and decided that 2 hours apart was appropriate. So I’ve got this weird schedule that looks like this: 9 a.m.        1 puff Serevent 11 a.m.       2 puffs Flovent 4 p.m.        1 puff Serevent 6 p.m.         1 puff Albuterol (15 mins before treadmill) 8 p.m.         1 puff Serevent 10 p.m.       2 puffs Flovent Doc isn’t sure if my asthma is from allergies or from years of taking an NSAID. I haven’t taken my NSAID in 3 days; we’re trying to rule out causes. If it’s NOT the NSAID, and it turns out to be allergies, I’m heading back for shots. Trying  to keep the above schedule is mind-boggling. I hope, in my case, this is temporary, but I sure have developed a great deal of sympathy for you folks who have always lived with this. Lynda

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Question:

I stopped taking my asthma medications altogether 2 weeks ago, the reason being is because I would simply just forget to take my inhalers, I know it wa a foolish thing to do but i didnt want to go through the same terrible side effects all over again. But since I stopped taking them, Ive felt very jittery like my heart is racing, and I have pain in my chest which wakes me up at night. Not only that but I wake up sometimes with slight bruising that seems to fade away as soon as I start moving my limbs. If I cut myself or bump my leg, I will bruise very easily. Iwant to take my medicine but Im scared of the side effects, is it possible that IF you stop taking your medicine very abruptly, you can get a chest infection or get sick?? I whole heartedly appreciate your responses. Im trying to find a new doctor also because I one I have isnt a nice person. CORAL

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Hi Sue, I was taking Serevent and Flovent two puffs each twice daily, I just  came from the Emergency room and the doctors checked me out. I had a physical and had my heart monitored. The doctor on call said that my heart palps were under 100 which is good and I seem to be in relatively good health, I wasnt weazing or having an attack. He also said that my type of asthma is not severe enough to be put on a permanent flovent/serevent regimend. Which is probably why I am feeling jittery along with the pain. His motto is if its not broke dont fix it and I whole heartedly agree with him. I dont have attacks unless Im exposed to something Im allergic to like dander or peanuts.  I was finally happy to know that it was the medicine that was causing these feelings. And Now Im just going to carry the proventil with me on an as need basis. And FIND A NEW DOCTOR. CORAL

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I stopped taking my asthma medications altogether 2 weeks ago, the reason being is because I would simply just forget to take my inhalers, I know it wa a foolish thing to do but i didnt want to go through the same terrible side effects all over again. But since I stopped taking them, Ive felt very jittery like my heart is racing, and I have pain in my chest which wakes me up at night. Not only that but I wake up sometimes with slight bruising that seems to fade away as soon as I start moving my limbs. If I cut myself or bump my leg, I will bruise very easily. Iwant to take my medicine but Im scared of the side effects, is it possible that IF you stop taking your medicine very abruptly, you can get a chest infection or get sick?? I whole heartedly appreciate your responses. Im trying to find a new doctor also because I one I have isnt a nice person. CORAL

 What medications were you taking?  Was one of them an oral steroid? Your symptoms are not good, you need to be checked out ASAP by a doctor. Sue Official Secretary of OSGSL Dogs think they’re human Cats think they’re God

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Hi Sue, I was taking Serevent and Flovent two puffs each twice daily, I just  came from the Emergency room and the doctors checked me out. I had a physical and had my heart monitored. The doctor on call said that my heart palps were under 100 which is good and I seem to be in relatively good health, I wasnt weazing or having an attack. He also said that my type of asthma is not severe enough to be put on a permanent flovent/serevent regimend. Which is probably why I am feeling jittery along with the pain. His motto is if its not broke dont fix it and I whole heartedly agree with him. I dont have attacks unless Im exposed to something Im allergic to like dander or peanuts.  I was finally happy to know that it was the medicine that was causing these feelings. And Now Im just going to carry the proventil with me on an as need basis. And FIND A NEW DOCTOR.

Did they do a pulmonary function test?  IMHO, they can’t determine how serious your asthma is without it.  Make sure you keep the proventil with you at all times and use it the second you feel tight.  And DO see a good doctor.  Ask around, someone should be able to recommend one.  If you don’t like that doctor, don’t be afraid to change.  I had two different family doctors before I found the best one in the area.  And he has done wonders for my asthma. Sue CORAL

Official Secretary of OSGSL Dogs think they’re human Cats think they’re God

Response:

Question:

Hi all!  Just came from Dr, now we have 2 inhalers (Flovent and Albuterol) plus ventolin to add to the albuterol nebulizer.  We also have the Steroids (Predinisone) for 5 days and another allergy medicine to try (Claritin didn’t help)…..     Thanks everyone who posted and emailed me, we have an action plan now and the Doctor talked to me for a long time today about what to look for – in order to know to take her to the ER, signs like some of the ones mentioned…     Finding the trigger I’m thinking will be next to impossible since she only gets it 2x per year, we are thinking it’s pollen or something seasonal.  I tried to respond via dejanews about the environment suggestions, it’s not showing up here now but anyway, the possibility of eliminating dust mold etc are pretty remote, if it’s the house, carpet, furniture…. Thanks again all, Kathleen | Hi Steve and Kathleen, | | I have a daughter 6 1/2 years of age and a son 4 years of age. Both have | had asthma since they were 3 months old. | | I have two nebulizers at home and I give the kids ventolin when they are | coughing.  They also have taken preventative medication Intal (didn’t work) | and Pulmicort.  They are now on 2 other preventative treatments Flixatide | (which is like Pulmicort) and Serevent (which is a preventative ventolin). | | I have them under the control of a pediatric respritory doctor who is | superb.  I can give my kids Ventolin every 1 – 2 hours.  My asthma plan is | they have 2 machines close together 1/2 hour apart.  Wait an 1hr give | another and wait an 1 hr and give another, if they don’t settle I take them | up to the hospital or start a 3 day course of prednisolone. | | Take a good close look at their chest.  If their chest is suken when you | lift their shirt then they need oxygen immediately. | | If she needs prednisolone, I feel she needs a preventative.  My children | have not been able to stop preventative medication for more than 3 months at | a time. | | Are you in Australia? | | LA

Response:

Barry is a salesman.  He sells air cleaners.

I am glad that you asked this question as it was the first thing I thought when I read the posting.

Response:

Hi ! First let me say that I can not help you but before you toss this you might be able to help me… I am a preschool teacher ( 4 and 5 year olds) and more of my students are being diagnosed with asthma.  One of my students was hospilatized theis weekend. ( he’s fine now but it got me thinking) I have taken courses in Health, Safety and Nutrition as well as CPR and First Aid and yet I too, do not know much about the early signs of a problem. I hope I would recognize a child in a severe condition and could respond accordingly but I’m not sure I could detect the early signs…. Can you help educate me? Can you share some information? Do you know of any helpful books or brochures. I would hate to think I could overlook sign until a distressful situation developed.   I probably won’t remember how I got to this board so can you respond in a

Response:

Tough call. If your child is mature enough to understand how to use a peak flow meter then I would get one. It is a little plastic device that they blow into as hard as they can. Asthmatics have a hard time getting air out of their lungs quickly. If there is an asthma attack it will show up on the peak flow. Have your child do three blows twice a day and record the results. Know what her best is. If she is 80-100% of her best, she is ok. If she is 60-80% of her best she is having some trouble, needs albuterol, but you don’t need to rush to the ER. Just see your doctor as quickly as possible. Under 60% then an ER visit is indicated. Remember, asthma is a desease of inflammation, not bronchoconstriction. Albuterol is a bronchodilator and steroids are antiinflammatories. Although you cannot overdose albuterol you may get to a point were it’s not effective anymore because you need that steroid. Also, is your child on a preventative medicine? I hope that helps. For more information on asthma you can check out my website at www.ibabydoc.com. No spam I just love being a pediatrician and helping children. Dr. Michael Bornstein, M.D. F.A.A.P. www.ibabydoc.com

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My daughter has had asthma since she was around 2yo, just ‘officially’ diagnosed early this year.  We have a nebulizer at home and I have been instructed to use it when she starts coughing, with albuterol & saline solution.  About 2x a year it isn’t enough and she has had to take Pedipred/predinisone (spelling?) for 10 days and that has always cleared it up.     My question is, how do I know she needs to go to the hospital?

The Expert Panel Report 2 has a figure classifying severity of asthma exacerbations [Fig 3-9]. Some of the symptoms for a severe exacerbation are: Breathlessness–while at rest Talks in words, rather than phrases or sentences. Agitated Repiratory rate often 30/min Wheeze–usually loud; throughout inhale & exhale Pulse–120/min Peak flow <50% personal best [a 5 yr old should be             able to use a peak flow meter] Note: The presence of several parameters, but not necessarily all, indicates the general classification of the exacerbation.  Her appetite is better today than yesterday, she is wanting to get around today (yesterday she slept on and off all day) but I can feel the wheezing in her chest.  I have been giving her breathing treatments at least every three hours.     This started up Friday morning and I let her go to school, however the nebulizer does not seem to be helping, not more than for a couple hours anyway.  Is it possible to overdose on Albuterol??

Ask your doctor; albuterol is a fairly safe drug. Current asthma guidelines are to have an Action Plan to increase drugs when peak flow decreases or symptoms increase; typically a steroid inhaler is added or increased and albuterol used as needed, when peak flows drop below 80% personal best or symptoms increase. Such an Action Plan may help avoid the need to go on oral steroids like Pedipred or make a trip to ER. http://www.ama-assn.org/special/asthma/treatmnt/updates/patient.htm Patient Asthma Action Plans Ellis – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –     We have had a great doctor since she was born, and will go see her tomorrow but it would be nice if I could converse with others who have dealt with this type of asthma…..   It never seems particularly severe to me but her doctor is always very concerned by the time I take her in.  I tend to worry about it a lot when she gets like this and fear the worst.. that I will under-react and it will be TOO LATE. Thanks, Kathleen

Response:

My daughter has had asthma since she was around 2yo, just ‘officially’ diagnosed early this year.  We have a nebulizer at home and I have been instructed to use it when she starts coughing, with albuterol & saline solution.  About 2x a year it isn’t enough and she has had to take Pedipred/predinisone (spelling?) for 10 days and that has always cleared it up.     My question is, how do I know she needs to go to the hospital?  Her appetite is better today than yesterday, she is wanting to get around today (yesterday she slept on and off all day) but I can feel the wheezing in her chest.  I have been giving her breathing treatments at least every three hours.     This started up Friday morning and I let her go to school, however the nebulizer does not seem to be helping, not more than for a couple hours anyway.  Is it possible to overdose on Albuterol??     We have had a great doctor since she was born, and will go see her tomorrow but it would be nice if I could converse with others who have dealt with this type of asthma…..   It never seems particularly severe to me but her doctor is always very concerned by the time I take her in.  I tend to worry about it a lot when she gets like this and fear the worst.. that I will under-react and it will be TOO LATE. Thanks, Kathleen I am not looking for treatment or medical gagets, just people who are familiar with this scenario — "If you think you are too small to be effective then you have never been in bed with a mosquito."

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Barry here of http://www.aircleaners.com I know that your against medical devices, but if the drugs arent working then mabe its an environmental problem that products such as HEPA air cleaners, DustMite Proof mattress and pillow encasings Ect.. may help. Mabe your homes indoor environment needs to be cleaned up. Do you have any carpet that is less then two years old ? Have you had any roof leaks in the past? You could have a chemical outgassing problem or a mold problem in your home that could cause chronic health problems.Also have you had much pest control ? If you dont get rid of the triggers first, the drugs wont always do a good job.You need to look at the big picture for possible environmental problems.Both at home and at school. The drugs are just a part of it. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My daughter has had asthma since she was around 2yo, just ‘officially’ diagnosed early this year.  We have a nebulizer at home and I have been instructed to use it when she starts coughing, with albuterol & saline solution.  About 2x a year it isn’t enough and she has had to take Pedipred/predinisone (spelling?) for 10 days and that has always cleared it up.     My question is, how do I know she needs to go to the hospital?  Her appetite is better today than yesterday, she is wanting to get around today (yesterday she slept on and off all day) but I can feel the wheezing in her chest.  I have been giving her breathing treatments at least every three hours.     This started up Friday morning and I let her go to school, however the nebulizer does not seem to be helping, not more than for a couple hours anyway.  Is it possible to overdose on Albuterol??     We have had a great doctor since she was born, and will go see her tomorrow but it would be nice if I could converse with others who have dealt with this type of asthma…..   It never seems particularly severe to me but her doctor is always very concerned by the time I take her in.  I tend to worry about it a lot when she gets like this and fear the worst.. that I will under-react and it will be TOO LATE. Thanks, Kathleen I am not looking for treatment or medical gagets, just people who are familiar with this scenario — "If you think you are too small to be effective then you have never been in bed with a mosquito."

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Barry here of http://www.aircleaners.com I know that your against medical devices, but if the drugs arent working then mabe its an environmental problem that products such as HEPA air cleaners, DustMite Proof mattress and pillow encasings Ect.. may help. Mabe your homes indoor environment needs to be cleaned up. Do you have any carpet that is less then two years old ? Have you had any roof leaks in the past? You could have a chemical outgassing problem or a mold problem in your home that could cause chronic health problems.Also have you had much pest control ? If you dont get rid of the triggers first, the drugs wont always do a good job.You need to look at the big picture for possible environmental problems.Both at home and at school. The drugs are just a part of it.

This in no way remotely addresses the questions she was answering. I don’t understand you people.

Response:

Barry here of http://www.aircleaners.com I know that your against medical devices, but if the drugs arent working then mabe its an environmental problem that products such as HEPA air cleaners, DustMite Proof mattress and pillow encasings Ect.. may help. Mabe your homes indoor environment needs to be cleaned up. Do you have any carpet that is less then two years old ? Have you had any roof leaks in the past? You could have a chemical outgassing problem or a mold problem in your home that could cause chronic health problems.Also have you had much pest control ? If you dont get rid of the triggers first, the drugs wont always do a good job.You need to look at the big picture for possible environmental problems.Both at home and at school.

That is assuming that there is an ‘environmental problem.’ Generally, in the case of asthma the problem will be allergy. Identifying the allergen in question is a must before you try to spend any money controlling things that usually are not causing problems. "Being responsible sometimes means pissing people off."    General Colin Powell

Response:

Barry here of http://www.aircleaners.com I know that your against medical devices, but if the drugs arent working then mabe its an environmental problem that products such as HEPA air cleaners, DustMite Proof mattress and pillow encasings Ect.. may help. Mabe your homes indoor environment needs to be cleaned up. Do you have any carpet that is less then two years old ? Have you had any roof leaks in the past? You could have a chemical outgassing problem or a mold problem in your home that could cause chronic health problems.Also have you had much pest control ? If you dont get rid of the triggers first, the drugs wont always do a good job.You need to look at the big picture for possible environmental problems.Both at home and at school. The drugs are just a part of it. This in no way remotely addresses the questions she was answering. I don’t understand you people.

Barry is a salesman.  He sells air cleaners. PS  Barry, are you still selling Alpine products? "Being responsible sometimes means pissing people off."    General Colin Powell

Response:

: : Barry here of http://www.aircleaners.com I know that your against medical : devices, but if the drugs arent working then mabe its an environmental : problem that products such as HEPA air cleaners, DustMite Proof mattress and : pillow encasings Ect.. may help. Mabe your homes indoor environment needs to : be cleaned up. Do you have any carpet that is less then two years old ? Have : you had any roof leaks in the past? You could have a chemical outgassing : problem or a mold problem in your home that could cause chronic health : problems.Also have you had much pest control ? If you dont get rid of the : triggers first, the drugs wont always do a good job.You need to look at the : big picture for possible environmental problems.Both at home and at school. : : That is assuming that there is an ‘environmental problem.’ : : Generally, in the case of asthma the problem will be allergy. : Identifying the allergen in question is a must before you try to spend : any money controlling things that usually are not causing problems. I do have asthma triggered by environmental problems and the air cleaners don’t help much if any. If you have an environmental trigger you get away from it or clean it up. At best a room sized air filter help me a very little bit. Cleaning the airconditioner ducts and sealing the leak between the cloths dryer and the return air and putting a decent filtering set helped a lot. The fabric softener in laundry products causes me problems if I get in in my lungs. I don’t use the crap on my cloths and we had changed for the one that caused me trouble but there was still enough in the  ducts to cause problems. I am not cured but I am a lot better. Before you spend money fixing problems find out what  triggers the asthma. An allergy test is a good start. Baring that some commons sense things that don’t cost anything are don’t run the vacuum while your child is in the house. Do it when she will be at school or a friends for a few hours. Make sure some fresh air gets in the house don’t live on recycled air. Wash the bed clothes in hot 150 degree water and dry them on high heat or dry them on a line in the sun shine. Both hard on dust mites. Keep the humidity between 30 and 50% if possible. Higher than this dust mites an molds are a problem lower than this air way irritation is a problem. Use ivory soap and avoid perfumed stuff for her in particular. They may or may not cause her a problem but they don’t help. Don’t use perfumed products when you can get a better cheaper plain product. Make your house smell clean by being clean not by deodorizers. Don’t use fabric softener on her clothes or bedding. It may not be a problem but it won’t help her asthma. One thing Barry is right on about is roof leaks and black slimy mold. If you have black slimy mold in the house you need to find out what it is and get rid of it. Some of them are very very bad news. They are also very rare. The seem to like to grow on the paper on sheet rock in the walls. Mildew is a lesser problem that should be dealt with by lowering the humidity until it is not much of a problem except at the corners of the bath tube and so on. Keeping molds out of carped bath rooms is hard to do. If you must have carpeted bathrooms make sure the shower curtain is tight and run the exhaust fan a lot and make sure the male members of the family have good aim. If you have animals move them outside or get rid of them. Don’t use a lot of Clorox or other cleaners that irritate the airways while she is in the house. Until you find the triggers or she grows enough that the asthma no longer causes attacks because the air ways get big enough the don’t close off you are running blind on trying to find relief by avoiding triggers. An allergist and pulmunolgist are your best bets for finding triggers and developing a plan to treat the asthma. Your daughter may be able to tell you what makes her feel bad. Sometimes they are right. — Gordon    W5RED

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Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Lines: 5 NNTP-Posting-Host: 1cust250.tnt2.cleveland3.oh.da.uu.net (67.211.27.250) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1012549143 41704991 67.211.27.250 (16 [33645]) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en Xref: uni-berlin.de alt.support.depression.manic:194315 x-no-archive: yes I take 400mg of Lamictal daily and 3600mg of Neurontin, along with 8mg daily of Klonopin and 200mg Wellbutrin SR.

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hi i was wondering what dosages some people were taking for lamotragine and gabapentin… esp. those who have had to go to the high end of the useful range …. also any info on how to discover one’s therapeutic dosage would be greatly appreciated

 4800 mg of Neurontin have been RX for some people. Therpeuric dose is subjective based on your response. Peace, Lynda

Response:

My drug list says you can go to 3200 mg of Neurontin.  I take 1600. I don’t know about Lamictal because I was afraid to take it after they told me about Stephens-Johnson syndrome.  Look it up on the Internet. — Val in Boise

Response:

I am currently at 1500 mg a day of neurontin and I will soon be going up to 1800 mg.   For now I will level off at that point and see how I do.  Do any of you on neurontin find that it makes you sleepy and if so how do you deal with this?  (when you can not sleep such as at work)  I seem to do better when I keep my doses evenly spaced throughout the day however my pdoc says I could take it all at once at bedtime if it made me too sleepy.  This seems like a lot to take at once to me. Bonnie

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – hi i was wondering what dosages some people were taking for lamotragine and gabapentin… esp. those who have had to go to the high end of the useful range …. also any info on how to discover one’s therapeutic dosage would be greatly appreciated thanks cybercafe

Response:

hello – I space mine out during the day… 6 a.m., 1 p.m., 8 p.m., but I am never tired….maybe it is the Effexor I am also taking. — regards, Compucat

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am currently at 1500 mg a day of neurontin and I will soon be going up to 1800 mg.   For now I will level off at that point and see how I do.  Do any of you on neurontin find that it makes you sleepy and if so how do you deal with this?  (when you can not sleep such as at work)  I seem to do better when I keep my doses evenly spaced throughout the day however my pdoc says I could take it all at once at bedtime if it made me too sleepy.  This seems like a lot to take at once to me. Bonnie hi i was wondering what dosages some people were taking for lamotragine and gabapentin… esp. those who have had to go to the high end of the useful range …. also any info on how to discover one’s therapeutic dosage would be greatly appreciated thanks cybercafe

Response:

Hi Compucat, I seem to do better when I space mine similar to that as well.  I have noticed that I get particularly sleepy if I don’t keep moving or stay busy in some manner.  How is the Effexor working for depression for you?  That is one that has been recommended to me that I have not yet tried. Bonnie

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – hello – I space mine out during the day… 6 a.m., 1 p.m., 8 p.m., but I am never tired….maybe it is the Effexor I am also taking. — regards, Compucat I am currently at 1500 mg a day of neurontin and I will soon be going up to 1800 mg.   For now I will level off at that point and see how I do.  Do any of you on neurontin find that it makes you sleepy and if so how do you deal with this?  (when you can not sleep such as at work)  I seem to do better when I keep my doses evenly spaced throughout the day however my pdoc says I could take it all at once at bedtime if it made me too sleepy.  This seems like a lot to take at once to me. Bonnie hi i was wondering what dosages some people were taking for lamotragine and gabapentin… esp. those who have had to go to the high end of the useful range …. also any info on how to discover one’s therapeutic dosage would be greatly appreciated thanks cybercafe

Response:

heh… the reason i have had the good fortune to find myself back among you charming sirs and madams is because i recently lost my job due to drowsiness… or… falling asleep at work….  thing is, i can’t tell if it was more due to the Valporate or the Effexor … any ideas ? i found that both of them made me drowsy at one time.. though that my have been when i first started i *need* to figure out which med is the culprit so i can stop taking it, but i just can’t tell… i mean when i am out of work, running around, doing my own thing, i am fine …. ug… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Compucat, I seem to do better when I space mine similar to that as well.  I have noticed that I get particularly sleepy if I don’t keep moving or stay busy in some manner.  How is the Effexor working for depression for you?  That is one that has been recommended to me that I have not yet tried. Bonnie hello – I space mine out during the day… 6 a.m., 1 p.m., 8 p.m., but I am never tired….maybe it is the Effexor I am also taking. — regards, Compucat I am currently at 1500 mg a day of neurontin and I will soon be going up  to 1800 mg.   For now I will level off at that point and see how I do.  Do  any of you on neurontin find that it makes you sleepy and if so how do you  deal with this?  (when you can not sleep such as at work)  I seem to do  better when I keep my doses evenly spaced throughout the day however my pdoc  says  I could take it all at once at bedtime if it made me too sleepy.  This  seems like a lot to take at once to me. Bonnie hi i was wondering what dosages some people were taking for lamotragine and gabapentin… esp. those who have had to go to the high end of the useful range …. also any info on how to discover one’s therapeutic dosage would be greatly appreciated

Response:

hi i was wondering what dosages some people were taking for lamotragine and gabapentin… esp. those who have had to go to the high end of the useful range …. also any info on how to discover one’s therapeutic dosage would be greatly appreciated thanks cybercafe

Response:

hi… I am taking 2400 mg. of Gabapentin along with 187.5 mg. of Effexor. – regards, Compucat

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – hi i was wondering what dosages some people were taking for lamotragine and gabapentin… esp. those who have had to go to the high end of the useful range …. also any info on how to discover one’s therapeutic dosage would be greatly appreciated thanks cybercafe

Response:

hi Bonnie.. I was visiting my pdoc today after having 2 crashes last week and really high anxiety that has resulted in no sleep of any consequence for almost a month. So for now, I will be taking 75 mg. of Effexor in the a.m. and 75 mg. again at noon. That is a slight drop in my total for the day by 37.5 mg. as we try to find where the best dose is for me.We may have gone a touch high on the Effexor. My Gabapentin dose will stay the same – 2400 mg. a day, this time only split up twice. The depression has lifted, I can feel that, but I am not out of the woodwork. That said, my body/mind has always proved to be rather treatment resistant. It has been about a month and a half on this combination of drugs. I really feel they are my answer and I want to work to get the right balance for me. I  previously took Prozac for 10 years – no side effects – then gradually had to start increasing the dose up to 60 mg. a day, and then it just died on me. I have been having some side effects, but are they Effexor side effects or Gabapentin side effects or both?: – cannot sleep – extremely decreased appetite – jittery – blurred/double vision (this is gone now) – tremors (they feel like little electrical jolts Bonnie, please remember that you may have some of these or none at all. Remember, we were not all made at the Chrysler plant in Detroit on Monday morning. We all will react differently. Look at my 10 years with Prozac – we are talking no side effects at all. It was a delight for me. Maybe that will be you with Effexor. Do some reading about it on the web medical sights and see if you feel comfortable with considering it. I am hearing very good things about it and good successes. hugs, — regards, Compucat

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Compucat, I seem to do better when I space mine similar to that as well.  I have noticed that I get particularly sleepy if I don’t keep moving or stay busy in some manner.  How is the Effexor working for depression for you?  That is one that has been recommended to me that I have not yet tried. Bonnie hello – I space mine out during the day… 6 a.m., 1 p.m., 8 p.m., but I am never tired….maybe it is the Effexor I am also taking. — regards, Compucat I am currently at 1500 mg a day of neurontin and I will soon be going up to 1800 mg.   For now I will level off at that point and see how I do. Do any of you on neurontin find that it makes you sleepy and if so how do you deal with this?  (when you can not sleep such as at work)  I seem to do better when I keep my doses evenly spaced throughout the day however my pdoc says I could take it all at once at bedtime if it made me too sleepy.  This seems like a lot to take at once to me. Bonnie hi i was wondering what dosages some people were taking for lamotragine and gabapentin… esp. those who have had to go to the high end of the useful range …. also any info on how to discover one’s therapeutic dosage would be greatly appreciated thanks cybercafe

Response:

Question:

Hi, I would like to know if taking HGH drugs can stimulate growth when one is already 22 (male)?

NO.  After the growth areas in the bones have closed off, no further height can be achieved.   Tsu Dho Nimh A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.

Response:

I would like to know if taking HGH drugs can stimulate growth when one is already 22 (male)? Only if your growth plates haven’t already closed. — | Microsoft: "A reputation for releasing inferior software will make | | it more difficult for a software vendor to induce customers to pay | | for new products or new versions of existing products."            |

What about DHEA  Is it good for all problems?

Response:

I would like to know if taking HGH drugs can stimulate growth when one is already 22 (male)? Only if your growth plates haven’t already closed. What about DHEA  Is it good for all problems?

If you have a seratonin deficiency caused by low DHEA, and assuming that a reasonable amount makes it through the digestive system and blood-brain barrier, then it could do you a lot of good. — | Microsoft: "A reputation for releasing inferior software will make | | it more difficult for a software vendor to induce customers to pay | | for new products or new versions of existing products."            |

Response:

I would like to know if taking HGH drugs can stimulate growth when one is already 22 (male)? Only if your growth plates haven’t already closed.

Can I get this tested, e.g. by my physician?

Response:

What about DHEA  Is it good for all problems?

What is DHEA compared with HGH?

Response:

I would like to know if taking HGH drugs can stimulate growth when one is already 22 (male)? NO.  After the growth areas in the bones have closed off, no further height can be achieved.  

Okay, say that is the case (they have closed off). Would it cause negative effects etc. when I took HGH or DHEA? What would be better for "testing", HGH or DHEA or both? And: When will be the time to determine if it works or not?

Response:

I would like to know if taking HGH drugs can stimulate growth when one is already 22 (male)? NO.  After the growth areas in the bones have closed off, no further height can be achieved.   Okay, say that is the case (they have closed off). Would it cause negative effects etc. when I took HGH or DHEA?

Mucking around with hormones is not a good idea.  Also true HGH is a very expensive injectible presctiption-only substance, not something you can buy retail.   It sounds like you are a short 22-year old male who wants to be taller.  Unfortunately, genetics and nutritional status during childhood and adolescence have almost complete control over height.   Tsu Dho Nimh A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.

Response:

I would like to know if taking HGH drugs can stimulate growth when one is already 22 (male)? Only if your growth plates haven’t already closed. Can I get this tested, e.g. by my physician?

X-rays would show whether or not the long bones had active growth plates or not.   Tsu Dho Nimh A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.

Response:

I would like to know if taking HGH drugs can stimulate growth when one is already 22 (male)? Only if your growth plates haven’t already closed. Can I get this tested, e.g. by my physician?

Yup.  One of the 18yo boys was having some joint pain recently, and since they’ve been slow growing (and are still a bit shorter than their father) we thought maybe it was a late growth spurt causing something like Osgood Schlatter’s Disease. Nope.  The orthopod reported that the growth plates were *almost* closed. — | Microsoft: "A reputation for releasing inferior software will make | | it more difficult for a software vendor to induce customers to pay | | for new products or new versions of existing products."            |

Response:

Hi, I would like to know if taking HGH drugs can stimulate growth when one is already 22 (male)? Manuel

Hi Manuel- I personally grew 2 inches at age 30 as a result of heavy therapy which cleared out some difficult childhood trauma. HGH (whether injectable, releaser or homeopathic) has NOT had very good results with people like yourself. But if for years you have felt yourself to be small, short, unhappy about your height, etc; there is a possibility (my GUESS would be about 3%-10% chance) that HGH might do something for your height partly because of psychological reasons. Good luck. Thayer Thayer White MA MFT http://www.helpself.com http://www.psychologyhelp.com http://www.hghcompany.com

Response:

Hi, I would like to know if taking HGH drugs can stimulate growth when one is already 22 (male)? Manuel

Response:

I would like to know if taking HGH drugs can stimulate growth when one is already 22 (male)?

Only if your growth plates haven’t already closed. — | Microsoft: "A reputation for releasing inferior software will make | | it more difficult for a software vendor to induce customers to pay | | for new products or new versions of existing products."            |

Response:

Question:

message : I hadn’t been able to do any of those things for a long time, because : I didn’t have enough motor control. : : A great side effect of going on the high fat Atkins diet was that, : coupled with the effect I had already achieved by drinking about a : gallon of water a day, my neuro muscular symptoms have cleared up : considerably. Try putting on mascara with your hand waving in front of : your eyes, or applying nail polish with a spastic hand. It doesn’t : work too well. : : I have been urged by people to get tested for Parkinson’s and for : Multiple Sclerosis for years because of  the increasing pain and : frustration of these problems. Benign Essential Tremor, which runs : through my family, didn’t seem to be the source for all that I went : through, especially when my legs started deteriorating. A few weeks : ago The Joy of My Life was teasing me and took my cane away from me, : (that I didn’t need all the time, but had had to pull out that one day : because of pain) saying I didn’t need it. I asked him was he going to : take my wheelchair away from me, too, when it came to that, and : thought to myself, was it really going to have to come to that? It was : then I started looking into the Atkins Diet, because I had read : somewhere that research had been done about ketogenic diets : (high fat consumption that send a body into benign ketosis, or fat : burning, state) making a great difference in the symptoms of epileptic : children, and in some with sclerosis or Parkinson’s. I decided to go : on the diet. : : Well, it’s been working. Not only the weight loss (as I’ve mentioned : elsewhere, 30 pounds) but my muscle control is up considerably and the : pain is a lot less (pretty much gone if I make sure I am drinking : enough water as well). I am able to exercise again, lightly, and hope : to go up to moderate exercise this week. I was able to cut my own hair : last week, have been able to apply eye makeup in 20 seconds, instead : of twenty minutes, and gave myself a manicure and pedicure for the : first time in many years tonight. It’s a really good feeling. : : Sometimes I wonder how much muscle tone I can get back into my legs, : but I’m trying not to get impatient about it. There’s a lot of things : to rebuild. Right now, I think it’s just time to go to bed. Goodnight, : all. : : Sandra :  ((((((Sandra)))))) how blessed you must feel! wishing you continued success, your strength of determination is what i need a little of… good night, donna —     the only baggage you can bring        is all that you can’t leave behind

Response:

I hadn’t been able to do any of those things for a long time, because I didn’t have enough motor control. A great side effect of going on the high fat Atkins diet was that, coupled with the effect I had already achieved by drinking about a gallon of water a day, my neuro muscular symptoms have cleared up considerably. Try putting on mascara with your hand waving in front of your eyes, or applying nail polish with a spastic hand. It doesn’t work too well. I have been urged by people to get tested for Parkinson’s and for Multiple Sclerosis for years because of  the increasing pain and frustration of these problems. Benign Essential Tremor, which runs through my family, didn’t seem to be the source for all that I went through, especially when my legs started deteriorating. A few weeks ago The Joy of My Life was teasing me and took my cane away from me, (that I didn’t need all the time, but had had to pull out that one day because of pain) saying I didn’t need it. I asked him was he going to take my wheelchair away from me, too, when it came to that, and thought to myself, was it really going to have to come to that? It was then I started looking into the Atkins Diet, because I had read somewhere that research had been done about ketogenic diets (high fat consumption that send a body into benign ketosis, or fat burning, state) making a great difference in the symptoms of epileptic children, and in some with sclerosis or Parkinson’s. I decided to go on the diet. Well, it’s been working. Not only the weight loss (as I’ve mentioned elsewhere, 30 pounds) but my muscle control is up considerably and the pain is a lot less (pretty much gone if I make sure I am drinking enough water as well). I am able to exercise again, lightly, and hope to go up to moderate exercise this week. I was able to cut my own hair last week, have been able to apply eye makeup in 20 seconds, instead of twenty minutes, and gave myself a manicure and pedicure for the first time in many years tonight. It’s a really good feeling. Sometimes I wonder how much muscle tone I can get back into my legs, but I’m trying not to get impatient about it. There’s a lot of things to rebuild. Right now, I think it’s just time to go to bed. Goodnight, all. Sandra

Response:

Question:

Anne Haas wrote:

. I wish some talk show host would do a program called "MOVE THE HELL ON, THAT WAS 20 YEARS AGO." Anne Anne, you are my hero also.  I wanna be like you when (if) I ever grow up.  :-)

DITTO!  :-) Joanne

Response:

Indyguy1 wrote:

Well, then you haven’t been reading all the threads. I posted a number of time times prior to the Jennifer thread in the past week or so. In fact Anne R asked me a week or so ago where the heck I’d been.

Well, I did. I don’t know where this bit about you being a troll got started, but I personally have gotten quite a bit out of your posts in the past. I did think you were a little harsh to Jennifer there, she’s in a tough situation and dont’ forget she’s very young too. I remember being in love at 22, I’d go back there in a second! But I’ve also learned a lot of very tough things in these 28-33 years, and a LOT of them I didn’t know and wouldn’t have accepted at the beginning of my relationship. Some people arent’ ready to give up the pain. But I never thought of you as a troll… is somebody saying I did? Is that why my name came up? I was glad you were back when you started posting again! Anne

Response:

Anne wrote:

Indyguy1 wrote: Well, then you haven’t been reading all the threads. I posted a number of time times prior to the Jennifer thread in the past week or so. In fact Anne R asked me a week or so ago where the heck I’d been. Well, I did.

Thanks for backing me up.:)  I don’t know where this bit about you being a troll got started,

but I personally have gotten quite a bit out of your posts in the past.

Thank you and I from yours.:) Not to mention a number of belly laughs! You are one funny lady!  I did think

you were a little harsh to Jennifer there,

I agree and I did apologize.  she’s in a tough situation and dont’ forget

she’s very young too. I remember being in love at 22, I’d go back there in a second!

LOL I should be so lucky to be able to remember that far aback.:)  But

I’ve also learned a lot of very tough things in these 28-33 years, and a LOT of them I didn’t know and wouldn’t have accepted at the beginning of my

relationship.

Some people arent’ ready to give up the pain.

How true.

But I never thought of you as a troll… is somebody saying I did?

No. Apparently lil and Geri were discussing that I was most likely a troll. I guess lil also brought it up at Shay’s baby shower.  Is that

why my name came up?

No *I* brought up your name as I knew you would remember I had posted prior to the infamous Jennifer thread. Lil had thought I had not posted in a long while and felt I caused some sort of riff between her and Merrie and then wasn’t around again until this Jennifer thing. Leading her to asssume I was a troll. I was glad you were back when you started posting again! Thanks for saying that Anne. Indy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Anne

Response:

I, for one, have a HUGE problem with this.  When Mike and I were having problems, you could have never, ever, ever convinced me that Tori was better off with a f— up for a dad and a mother who did everything.  I was a single parent in a two parent home.  When he told me that he’d give up his parental rights in order NOT to pay CS, I was so thrilled!  I’d have gone with that deal in a heart beat! I was NOT going to stay in a marriage where I was cussed out daily, told that HIS son was perfect and it was ME that had the problem, one night I had a boot shoved in my face because MY dog chewed it up.  I can remember another night I was sick and asked Mike to let Tori lie with him for a minute.  I’m in the bathroom throwing up, Tori’s crying – and he’s yelling at her for crying! Yeah, this is a marriage I would have stayed in for my child’s sake.  Don’t think so.  My daughter would have been better off without the father, thank you very much. Of course, since Mike has gotten his act together, Tori likes the father he’s become and Mike has realized that everyone making excuses for his son has given him a reason NOT to accept responsibility for his problems (hence, the running away because he got caught with drugs – it’s easier to run than deal with the consequences). Unfortunately, my SS had 13 1/2 years to have everyone feel sorry for him and justify WHY he shouldn’t have to face consequences for his actions. Lying?  Oh, that’s just him – he lies so much, I don’t think he knows how to tell the truth any more.  Stealing?  Oh, no, he’d never do that. Yeah, we’re trying to work on the marriage, but between the son’s attitude, Mike’s parents attitude of we can do no right and SS can do no wrong, and the ex’s attitude of she’s a better parent – there are days I’d rather live in Alaska than continue this marriage. "Indyguy1" <indyg…@aol.com

wrote in message

news:20001019014520.00976.00000407@ng-fo1.aol.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

I think Brian has a copy of one of her studies stating that she feels

that

parents should stay in bad marriages for their childrens’ sakes.  (Unless there is domestic violence, child abuse or drug use.) From my understanding she feels couples should try their best to work out

their

differances for the sake of everyone, including themselves, in families. Do you have a problem with this train of thought, Geri?

Response:

"Wendy A. S. Taylor" <ccx…@coventry.ac.uk

wrote in message

news:8smkc6$fq0$1@leofric.coventry.ac.uk…

Well I have to say that I didn’t read anything offensive, or troll like in her post.

Did you read anything particularly helpful or supportive in it?  I didn’t.

It’s your perogative to killfile her if you want, but why say so on the newsgroup.

Um…because it came up in a conversation with Geri?  Did it offend you in some way I don’t know about?  Is there some new content bylaw on here that I maybe missed?

 Other people can and will make their own minds up about who and what to read.

Of course they can.  Good Lord, where was it I said that everyone should ignore her or kill her?  Geri said that she suspected that she was a troll and I commented that I thought so too.  I changed the subject because I was no longer discussing Oprah. Get a grip, hon.  When exactly did you become the newsgroup police? lil — "It’s hard when you discover what keeps you going keeps you all alone."  – Blue Rodeo

Response:

Anne Robotti <robo…@worldnet.att.net

wrote in message

news:39EEE01B.3E8E08C3@worldnet.att.net… I wish some talk show host would do a program called "MOVE THE

HELL ON, THAT WAS 20 YEARS AGO."

Anne anne anne anne anne – ROFLLL.

Response:

"rebecca" <justrebec…@yahoo.com

wrote in message

news:1pGH5.8713$ji3.197226@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net…

Hmm… lil, I always thought Al was pretty reasonable

Alan *was* pretty reasonable.  But his character wasn’t consistent. For instance, he was only more than happy to trash Enricho Suave for his comments, but before he left he jumped down our throats for the way *we* responded to him. There’s more, but it’s kind of hard to explain.  It was never intended to start a major discussion, I was just making a comment.  :-) lil — "It’s hard when you discover what keeps you going keeps you all alone."  – Blue Rodeo

Response:

Hey Tea, I’m sure I won’t be the only one saying this. Mediation..(and Vicki will correct me if I’m wrong, hopefully) Mediation is a fabulous avenue for parents like you, who are *able* to agree, and can set "looser" terms to the children’s custody schedules. However, if you’ve been lurking long, you’ll have already found that a large part of this group comes from situations that this would be impossible…and unfortunately the courts do have to have the end say. Even then, justice or fairness doesn’t always happen. So..basically you are correct, the system assumes there is a war going on, because if there is no prior agreement reached…that is the ground the courts see them on. ange In article <gKFH5.112147$47.1480…@news.bc.tac.net

,

  "Hilander" <hilan…@block.lightspeed.ca

wrote:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

"Indyguy1" <indyg…@aol.com wrote in message news:20001019014520.00976.00000407@ng-fo1.aol.com… But regarless of Wallerstien’s feelings on who should divorce and

who

shouldn’t, the results of her findings on how divorce and the way

parents

act post-divorce stand on their own. This is a valid point. My ex and I are not yet legally divorced [can't afford it financially

at

this time] but have been living seperate and apart for almost 5 years. We’ve both looked into doing it ourselves but are afraid that we might

get

something wrong on the paper and can’t afford [financially] to be

making

those kinds of mistakes only to have to do it again. What gets both of us is how the ’system’ is set up.  We do get along

fairly

well as people but as parents, we are both on the same page and have

no

problems.  The ’system’ however, not only assumes there must be a

‘war’ but

there is so much there that we believe provokes negative feelings when

there

needn’t be. We have joint custody and guardianship.  We do NOT like the idea of

courts

telling either of us when we can or can’t see kids because we have

always

worked it out verbally with no problems and we can’t imagine how

difficult

it must be on adults as well as kids if there is no flexibility.  Life

is

not static.  It is dynamic! But the papers we looked at default to one parent or the other having

’sole

custody’.  Why?  If we were ‘pushed’ into that route [through lawyers, family and friends] then I can see how it would cause negative

feelings

because your mind is then tuned to look for ‘negatives’ in one parent

over

the other as a parent.  Not healthy. At a time like that, wouldn’t it be better for kids if the system

helped

promote and celebrate the *strengths* of both parents and how those strengths could compliment and work well with each other as parents?! I don’t want a piece of paper telling me that ex can only see kids on weekends.  What if they have a weekday off from school and dad has

tickets

to the hockey game?  What if one of the kids has been invited to a

birthday

party on the weekend and doesn’t want to go away that day? While in some cases, the personality of the individual parents may be

a big

problem for the divorce process and/or seperation, I also see that the system and even societal attitude towards divorce/seperation pushes

people

into seperate corners of the mat when they might not have gone there

in the

first place. I don’t think seperation/divorce is bad for kids, however, the current process and aftermath as it is set up today I do believe has a

detrimental

effect on *everyone* involved unless they actively and consciously

work

around/against the system. Chat later, Tea

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

Response:

On Thu, 19 Oct 2000 01:47:52 -0700, "lilblakdog" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -<lbdcreati…@dog.com

wrote: "Geri and Brian" <gplen…@aol.comicrelief wrote in message news:20001019034446.05269.00000435@ng-cb1.aol.com… Are you a troll? Indy showed up just as Alan Moore and his wife disappeared (and, quite frankly, I had my doubts about *their* sincerity, as *they* showed up just as Enricho Suave disappeared).  She was sticking up for Alan’s wife by asking us not to use the term biomom to differentiate, because we *weren’t* mothers in any way, shape or form. She had a couple of serious sounding posts, one of which started something of a dispute between Merrie and I.  I couldn’t help but notice that *during* this dispute, Indy was nowhere to be seen.  When I was down in Tacoma for Shay’s baby shower, I’d mentioned that I suspected that she was just trolling. Her response to Jennifer/John Durden is the first one of her posts that I’ve read since, and her tactic has changed rather severely from the concerned great-aunt who doesn’t want to offend anybody.  So now I’m basically certain that she *is* a troll and will be blocking her posts.

Oh shut teh hell up. YOur ignorant McCarthyesque accusations are pathetic at best. STop trying to be a netcop. Loev, Poopie Pants

Response:

Geri wrote:

Do you have a problem with this train of thought, Geri? I don’t have a strong opinion about it one way or the other.  Are you a troll?

Nope. But I see you’d like to portray me as one, seeing as I don’t always agree with the way you see and do things.

You are rude to everyone.

Everyone? Hardly. Indy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

lil wrote:

"Geri and Brian" <gplen…@aol.comicrelief wrote in message news:20001019034446.05269.00000435@ng-cb1.aol.com… Are you a troll? Indy showed up just as Alan Moore and his wife disappeared (and, quite frankly, I had my doubts about *their* sincerity, as *they* showed up just as Enricho Suave disappeared).  She was sticking up for Alan’s wife by asking us not to use the term biomom to differentiate, because we *weren’t* mothers in any way, shape or form.

Uh, excuse me. I do not know the people you speak of. I don’t even remember much of the thread. But I do remember I did NOT say step-mothers were not mothers in any way shape or form.

She had a couple of serious sounding posts, one of which started something of a dispute between Merrie and I.

I don’t recall any dispute between you and Merrie. But then again I am not a constant on this ng. And if you and Merrie disagree or any other posters on this or any other ng it is between the two of you or them not anyone else. And anything *I* post about or respond to I consider serious.  I couldn’t help but notice that *during*

this dispute, Indy was nowhere to be seen.

Well hang me out to dry because I don’t check in here as often as others do. Geesh  When I was down in Tacoma for

Shay’s baby shower, I’d mentioned that I suspected that she was just trolling.

I thought trolls came in and stirred up trouble then left. I asked questions. I gave comments. I come back because of our nephew and the mess he is in. There are some here that I really value their opinion. You were one of them. You might want to check the 15 years hence thread and see the compliment I paid you, earlier this week or last week.

Her response to Jennifer/John Durden is the first one of her posts that I’ve read since,

Well, then you haven’t been reading all the threads. I posted a number of time times prior to the Jennifer thread in the past week or so. In fact Anne R asked me a week or so ago where the heck I’d been. and her tactic has changed rather severely from the concerned

great-aunt who doesn’t want to offend anybody.

I’m usually very calm in my responces on this ng. There was something that really bothered me about Jennifer’s stance on her b/f’s children, their mother and her role in the boy’s lives. Maybe it was her arrogance or the desire for her to see the boy’s mother out of their lives after only being their dad’s g/f for about one year, I’m not sure. But in the mean time I did apologize to her. Although from reading the way she responds to many of the good solid ideas she has been given it looks like she may not want any helpful sugestions, afterall.   So now I’m basically certain

that she *is* a troll and will be blocking her posts.

If you choose to block my posts, Lil, that is your perogative. But to think I am a troll is not only false but really less than I expected of you. Indy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

lil

Response:

In a previous article, "Hilander" <hilan…@block.lightspeed.ca

said:

<I don’t want a piece of paper telling me that ex can only see kids on <weekends.  What if they have a weekday off from school and dad has tickets <to the hockey game?  What if one of the kids has been invited to a birthday <party on the weekend and doesn’t want to go away that day? Then so what?  One of the things I stress with my mediation clients is that the agreement is for both of them, and that the separation police aren’t going to be checking to see if parenting time is going to go the way the document says it does.  The doc is there to set basic expectations and to satisfy the court that everyone has knowledge of the important things.  You can put it into practice **any** way that you and your ex want to.  Any way at all.  Total freedom to do that. See a mediator.  It makes divorce *much* cheaper, especially when you and your ex get along as well as you seem to.  Any competent mediator can put all the flexibility you want in your agreement. Vicki — Bring Dejanews back to life!  See the petition at http://www2.petitionsonline.com/dejanews/petition.html and sign it. Help bring back a valuable Usenet resource!

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Do these whining *adult* brats think they would have been any happier in a home where their parents were two miserable people who *should* have been divorced? Been there, done that, NEVER going back. One of the things I always promised myself I’d do for my children is have the strength and courage to get divorced if their Dad and I really couldn’t work things out. I made this promise to myself when I was *nine years old.* If kids need counseling to get them through the divorce, to help them cope, I’m all for it. But this Oprah thing is going to be another attempt to excuse these people’s actions as adults because of their pain as a child. I had pain as a child too, every- body did. I wish some talk show host would do a program called "MOVE THE HELL ON, THAT WAS 20 YEARS AGO." Anne

Anne, you are my hero also.  I wanna be like you when (if) I ever grow up.  :-) Anne H. "To the world you might be one person, but to one person you might be  the world."

Response:

"Indyguy1" <indyg…@aol.com

wrote in message

news:20001019014520.00976.00000407@ng-fo1.aol.com…

But regarless of Wallerstien’s feelings on who should divorce and who shouldn’t, the results of her findings on how divorce and the way parents

act

post-divorce stand on their own.

This is a valid point. My ex and I are not yet legally divorced [can't afford it financially at this time] but have been living seperate and apart for almost 5 years. We’ve both looked into doing it ourselves but are afraid that we might get something wrong on the paper and can’t afford [financially] to be making those kinds of mistakes only to have to do it again. What gets both of us is how the ’system’ is set up.  We do get along fairly well as people but as parents, we are both on the same page and have no problems.  The ’system’ however, not only assumes there must be a ‘war’ but there is so much there that we believe provokes negative feelings when there needn’t be. We have joint custody and guardianship.  We do NOT like the idea of courts telling either of us when we can or can’t see kids because we have always worked it out verbally with no problems and we can’t imagine how difficult it must be on adults as well as kids if there is no flexibility.  Life is not static.  It is dynamic! But the papers we looked at default to one parent or the other having ’sole custody’.  Why?  If we were ‘pushed’ into that route [through lawyers, family and friends] then I can see how it would cause negative feelings because your mind is then tuned to look for ‘negatives’ in one parent over the other as a parent.  Not healthy. At a time like that, wouldn’t it be better for kids if the system helped promote and celebrate the *strengths* of both parents and how those strengths could compliment and work well with each other as parents?! I don’t want a piece of paper telling me that ex can only see kids on weekends.  What if they have a weekday off from school and dad has tickets to the hockey game?  What if one of the kids has been invited to a birthday party on the weekend and doesn’t want to go away that day? While in some cases, the personality of the individual parents may be a big problem for the divorce process and/or seperation, I also see that the system and even societal attitude towards divorce/seperation pushes people into seperate corners of the mat when they might not have gone there in the first place. I don’t think seperation/divorce is bad for kids, however, the current process and aftermath as it is set up today I do believe has a detrimental effect on *everyone* involved unless they actively and consciously work around/against the system. Chat later, Tea

Response:

lilblakdog <lbdcreati…@dog.com

wrote in message

news:tyyH5.1009$sq4.23642@newscontent-01.sprint.ca…

Indy showed up just as Alan Moore and his wife disappeared (and, quite frankly, I had my doubts about *their* sincerity, as *they* showed up just as Enricho Suave disappeared).  She was sticking up for Alan’s wife by asking us not to use the term biomom to differentiate, because we

*weren’t*

mothers in any way, shape or form.

Hmm… lil, I always thought Al was pretty reasonable, and IIRC, everyone _did_ jump straight down his wife’s (Ginny?) throat for whatever comment she made. Go figger.

Response:

Tommorrow morning author Judith Wallerstien will be on Oprah tommorrow. Her latest book, The Unexpected Legacy of Divorce, uncovers many of the feelings children of divorce have towards divorce and the way their lives went after their parents divorced.

I think Brian has a copy of one of her studies stating that she feels that parents should stay in bad marriages for their childrens’ sakes.  (Unless there is domestic violence, child abuse or drug use.)   ~~~~~~~~~~ Geri   ^   ^      

 ’  ’ <

"There is no snooze button on a cat who wants breakfast."- Anonymous ~~~~~~~~~~

Response:

Geri wrote:

Tommorrow morning author Judith Wallerstien will be on Oprah tommorrow. Her latest book, The Unexpected Legacy of Divorce, uncovers many of the feelings children of divorce have towards divorce and the way their lives went after their parents divorced. I think Brian has a copy of one of her studies stating that she feels that parents should stay in bad marriages for their childrens’ sakes.  (Unless there is domestic violence, child abuse or drug use.)  

From my understanding she feels couples should try their best to work out their differances for the sake of everyone, including themselves, in families. Do you have a problem with this train of thought, Geri? But regarless of Wallerstien’s feelings on who should divorce and who shouldn’t, the results of her findings on how divorce and the way parents act post-divorce stand on their own. Gee, I wonder if the poor results of children of divorce that she followed for 25 years could be part of the reason she would prefer to see families stick together? Indy

Response:

Do you have a problem with this train of thought, Geri?

I don’t have a strong opinion about it one way or the other.  Are you a troll? You are rude to everyone. ~~~~~~~~~~ Geri   ^   ^      

 ’  ’ <

"There is no snooze button on a cat who wants breakfast."- Anonymous ~~~~~~~~~~

Response:

"Geri and Brian" <gplen…@aol.comicrelief

wrote in message

news:20001019034446.05269.00000435@ng-cb1.aol.com…

Are you a troll?

Indy showed up just as Alan Moore and his wife disappeared (and, quite frankly, I had my doubts about *their* sincerity, as *they* showed up just as Enricho Suave disappeared).  She was sticking up for Alan’s wife by asking us not to use the term biomom to differentiate, because we *weren’t* mothers in any way, shape or form. She had a couple of serious sounding posts, one of which started something of a dispute between Merrie and I.  I couldn’t help but notice that *during* this dispute, Indy was nowhere to be seen.  When I was down in Tacoma for Shay’s baby shower, I’d mentioned that I suspected that she was just trolling. Her response to Jennifer/John Durden is the first one of her posts that I’ve read since, and her tactic has changed rather severely from the concerned great-aunt who doesn’t want to offend anybody.  So now I’m basically certain that she *is* a troll and will be blocking her posts. lil — "It’s hard when you discover what keeps you going keeps you all alone."  – Blue Rodeo

Response:

In article <tyyH5.1009$sq4.23…@newscontent-01.sprint.ca

,

lilblakdog <lbdcreati…@dog.com

wrote: Her response to Jennifer/John Durden is the first one of her posts that I’ve read since, and her tactic has changed rather severely from the concerned great-aunt who doesn’t want to offend anybody.  So now I’m basically certain that she *is* a troll and will be blocking her posts.

Well I have to say that I didn’t read anything offensive, or troll like in her post.   It’s your perogative to killfile her if you want, but why say so on the newsgroup.  Other people can and will make their own minds up about who and what to read. Wendy

Response:

In article <20001018220913.15571.00000…@ng-cv1.aol.com

, posted 19 Oct

2000 02:09:13 GMT, Geri and Brian says…

Tommorrow morning author Judith Wallerstien will be on Oprah tommorrow. Her latest book, The Unexpected Legacy of Divorce, uncovers many of the feelings children of divorce have towards divorce and the way their lives went after their parents divorced. I think Brian has a copy of one of her studies stating that she feels that parents should stay in bad marriages for their childrens’ sakes.  (Unless there is domestic violence, child abuse or drug use.)  

You know, my mother stayed in her marriage for her children’s sake, for my sake. I unconsciously learned that I was responsible for my mother’s unhappy life. I heard about her sacrifice almost every day. It took me six years after leaving to realise that I was in a land of psychological torture, and I’m still dealing with the crap ten years later. If Wallerstein has a study stating that people should stay in unhappy marriages for the children’s sake, she’s shot herself in the foot. K**** — Quotes of a five year old girl: "I felt some wriggly things on my head but they were only my own two fingers playing with themselves. I thought it might be a worm."

Response:

In article <39EEDB73.246C…@ntcorp.com

, Karla  <ka…@ntcorp.com wrote: Gee, I wonder if the poor results of children of divorce that she followed for 25 years could be part of the reason she would prefer to see families stick together? I know that one of the flaws in the scientific method is that people tend to skew results to support their hypothesis…especially in the social sciences.  It’s too bad because the scientific method is supposed

The social sciences are very difficult to be scientific in because it is almost impossible to control extraneous factors.

to allow you the chance to examine data to see if your hypothesis is right or wrong, but because of the way grant money and other financial resources tied to "results," people now actively skew the data to support their hypothesis or risk becoming labeled as a non-producer and loosing financial support.

This is true even in the sciences.

Mark Twain said there are three types of lies: Lies, damned lies and statistics.  There’s a reason for that.  I’ve worked in marketing, I know that you tell the "professionals" what you want to prove and they find the data to support your findings.  

One of my favourite authors.

The main criticism I have read on this book (I’m on the waiting list for the book, so I haven’t read it yet) is that her conclusions are flawed due to unequal comparisions.  In other words, she’s not comparing apples and apples, she’s comparing apples and oranges and declaring that the apples rule.

I haven’t read the book, nor seen the programme, but I have done quite a lot of reading on the subject of academic performance and divorce This is quite an interesting URL:  www.prospect.org/archives/18/18mcla.html I know it is harder to supervise two children doing homework, on my own, and still make sure supper, dishes, etc. all get done.  I know that I can’t control what is being done at my ex’s, though this isn’t to say that he doesn’t care or try in his own fashion. After the counselling you went through, Karla, did they give any counselling/advice for you and your ex for co-parenting thereafter? Wendy

Response:

I have been reading the threads started by Judith. I understand her pain and dissapointment because of her adult children’s actions. Perhaps by understanding more about the long lasting effects of divorce on children and how children may not be as reslient as some adults who have divorced wish to believe they are many step-parents, along with birth-parents, can understand more fully why adult children do and say the things they do and say. Not that I am saying Judith’s kids were correct in their treatment of her, as I don’t feel they were. Tommorrow morning author Judith Wallerstien will be on Oprah tommorrow. Her latest book, The Unexpected Legacy of Divorce, uncovers many of the feelings children of divorce have towards divorce and the way their lives went after their parents divorced. The people she speaks with and about in her books are now adults. She followed them from the time of divorce in their childhood into adulthood. I don’t know if steps will be addressed in her interview, but even if they aren’t, I’m sure this show will give all parents who raise or help raise children that have been touched by divorce a better idea of what divorce does to children and how the parent’s actions impact the children’s lives into adulthood. This might be worth taping if you won’t be home when Oprah is on. Heck, it might be good enough that your spouse and you should view it together! If it’s *really* good it might be worth sending a copy to your ex or your spouses ex.:) Indy (who already read the book and can’t wait for the interview!)

Response:

Sorry Indy, but OH GAG! I know I’m going to sound just evil when I say this, but I’m sick of bending over backwards to understand the effects of divorce on the poor little angels. Sometimes people get divorced, sometimes people die, and I just think it’s a symptom of everything that’s wrong with our society that we coddle kids through this and excuse their most selfish actions by trying to "understand their point of view." Do these whining *adult* brats think they would have been any happier in a home where their parents were two miserable people who *should* have been divorced? Been there, done that, NEVER going back. One of the things I always promised myself I’d do for my children is have the strength and courage to get divorced if their Dad and I really couldn’t work things out. I made this promise to myself when I was *nine years old.* If kids need counseling to get them through the divorce, to help them cope, I’m all for it. But this Oprah thing is going to be another attempt to excuse these people’s actions as adults because of their pain as a child. I had pain as a child too, every- body did. I wish some talk show host would do a program called "MOVE THE HELL ON, THAT WAS 20 YEARS AGO." Anne – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Indyguy1 wrote:

I have been reading the threads started by Judith. I understand her pain and dissapointment because of her adult children’s actions. Perhaps by understanding more about the long lasting effects of divorce on children and how children may not be as reslient as some adults who have divorced wish to believe they are many step-parents, along with birth-parents, can understand more fully why adult children do and say the things they do and say. Not that I am saying Judith’s kids were correct in their treatment of her, as I don’t feel they were. Tommorrow morning author Judith Wallerstien will be on Oprah tommorrow. Her latest book, The Unexpected Legacy of Divorce, uncovers many of the feelings children of divorce have towards divorce and the way their lives went after their parents divorced. The people she speaks with and about in her books are now adults. She followed them from the time of divorce in their childhood into adulthood. I don’t know if steps will be addressed in her interview, but even if they aren’t, I’m sure this show will give all parents who raise or help raise children that have been touched by divorce a better idea of what divorce does to children and how the parent’s actions impact the children’s lives into adulthood. This might be worth taping if you won’t be home when Oprah is on. Heck, it might be good enough that your spouse and you should view it together! If it’s *really* good it might be worth sending a copy to your ex or your spouses ex.:) Indy (who already read the book and can’t wait for the interview!)

Response:

I think the data is useless without the proper comparison – which wouldn’t be happy families that stayed together, but rather families that stayed together and should have been divorced. I think her findings are faulty.  How can she determine if the poor results of children are due the divorce rather than the bad relationship between the parents?  Where are the results of children raised by acrimonious parents that didn’t divorce?  How can we quantify the level of acrimony so that we can isolate that from divorce and be able to distinguish if it’s divorce that’s causative or the acrimony? Merrie Indyguy1 <indyg…@aol.com

wrote in message

news:20001019014520.00976.00000407@ng-fo1.aol.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

But regarless of Wallerstien’s feelings on who should divorce and who shouldn’t, the results of her findings on how divorce and the way parents

act

post-divorce stand on their own. Gee, I wonder if the poor results of children of divorce that she followed

for

25 years could be part of the reason she would prefer to see families

stick

together? Indy

Response:

Question:

That is so excellent, every step in the right direction is a huge step forward! ok…went to see my ob/gyn yesterday for a checkup…and i finally broke down and told him i was suffering with depression…i was so embarrassed…started crying and everything…but he gave me some sample of this drug called Effexor…(spelled right?) i haven’t started taking it yet, guess i’m a little nervous of the side effects, if it has any. and he also gave me a couple of 800 numbers to call to see about therapy…too nervous to call them yet. but just wanted everyone to know, i’m on my way to getting "there" hopefully will be "happy" again… Toni

– "Anything is hard to find, when you will not open your eyes."

Response:

Effexor XR was a good med for me. We’re going to try Zoloft. Effexor XR was fine but I still had some deep depressions. G

Response:

Good to see you working in the solution. Now if I could just KEEP my head out of the problem more often. G

Response:

Good for you, Toni! I’ve been through therapy too, and I know you will find it worth it. Howard

Response:

ok…went to see my ob/gyn yesterday for a checkup…and i finally broke down and told him i was suffering with depression…i was so embarrassed…started crying and everything…but he gave me some sample of this drug called Effexor…(spelled right?) i haven’t started taking it yet, guess i’m a little nervous of the side effects, if it has any. and he also gave me a couple of 800 numbers to call to see about therapy…too nervous to call them yet. but just wanted everyone to know, i’m on my way to getting "there" hopefully will be "happy" again… Toni

Response:

Question:

Recently, I overheard some pdocs discussing some research findings that Paxil, and to a lesser degree Zoloft, inhibits fat burning.  Anybody have any info on this?  Philip? – Valerie

Response:

Recently, I overheard some pdocs discussing some research findings that Paxil, and to a lesser degree Zoloft, inhibits fat burning.  Anybody have any info on this?  Philip? – Valerie

It is true that weight gain is associated with these meds but it doesn’t always occur with everybody. Philip

Response:

I am on Zoloft. It makes me kinda tired and also seem to have gained some weight. My problem is that I am overweight already and have high blood pressure. My blood pressure Dr wants me to loose weight and I cannot. I have to go see her in 1 week and she will give me "THE LECTURE". Of course she is thin and does not understand that loosing weight is sooo hard. Especially when I am on so many meds…Zoloft, xanax, risperdal, norvasc(for bp) and 2 other bp meds. It is so hard.

Response:

Question:

Hi Mark,   I am a third year pharmacy student at the University of Illinois.  I read your letter last week about Zoloft side effects, and would like to respond to it.  I don’t know when you started taking Zoloft but what you should know is that in order for the medication to work you have to take it for at leat 3-4 weeks.  Usually physicians will give you another medication to take concurrently with Zoloft to cover you until it will start working. Klonopin is sometimes used for this purpose.  I looked up some links for you, so you could get some extra information about both meds.  If you have some time, look at: http://www.fairlite.com/ocd/medications/zoloft.shtml This link has a list of all side effects of zoloft that were ever reported.  I checked the list and 2.6% of population experience anxiety.  (the entire article is kind of long so please scroll down).  Some other nice links about your medications are: http://www.begin.com/redoak/medications/klonopin.html http://www.pfizer.com/hml/pi’s/zoloftpi.html  Before you stop Zoloft – inform you physician.  Recently, there were many reports about Zoloft withdrawal syndrome.  This means you cannot just stop, you have to decrease the doses day by day, and then stop.  There is a link that explains it: http://www.pharminfo.com/pin_hp.html  I hope the information I suggested will be helpful to you, but I cannot make any guarantees as to its accuracy, completeness, usefulness, or relevance to your particular situation.  There is no substitute for having an ongoing, two-way dialogue with a licensed health professional whom you know and trust. Good luck. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am using Zoloft and feel anxiety and confusion with my other medication Klonopin. Can you help me? I am concerned this is not normal and I dont know what to expect. I am much better but I just don