Question:

Just wondering if anyone has tried taking Singulair to treat allergy related sinus congestion.

Response:

I read that it was FDA approved for allergic rhinitis very recently. "Steven Balough" <sbalo…@mail.utexas.edu

wrote in message

news:avlc9n$2kp$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Just wondering if anyone has tried taking Singulair to treat allergy

related

sinus congestion.

Response:

Many allergists and ENTs have prescribed it for that for years, even without FDA approval for it ("off-label"). I’ve been prescribed it several times, for rhinitis. Recently I started taking it again. To tell the truth, I’m really not sure if it is helping me at all or not. (Sometimes it’s hard to know. You think–"I might be worse if I wasn’t taking this".) Anyone here noticed definitive results from it? Are there any published controlled double-blind studies on using it for rhinitis? (I guess there would have to be, if in fact the FDA has approved it for that purpose.) Anyone know where one can read the studies? Can’t regular Singulair use over years have negative effects on the liver? What if one takes both Singulair and acetaminophen regularly? "Joy" <n…@nospam.com

wrote in message

news:cy5U9.5794$Qr4.558783@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I read that it was FDA approved for allergic rhinitis very recently. > "Steven Balough" <sbalo…@mail.utexas.edu

wrote in message

> news:avlc9n$2kp$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu… > > Just wondering if anyone has tried taking Singulair to treat allergy > related > > sinus congestion.

Response:

Question:

I have found that taking chlorpheniramine (an antihistamine found in OTC medications such as Chlor-Trimeton) can stop my migraines within 15 minutes in many cases.  However, both pharmacists and doctors tell me that this isn’t supposed to happen.  But it sill works.  Can anyone tell me why?  I try aspirin, acetaminophen, codeine, and ibuprofen, but ultimately if all else fails I take chlorpheniramine, and very often that works (the reason I don’t take it to begin with is that it puts me to sleep). Any suggestions on why this particular medication works for my migraines, even though it’s "not supposed to work"?  Aren’t antihistamines usually effective treatments for migraines, or is it the other way around? — Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.

Response:

I’m not really sure, but many people here have taken Singulair and reported that works for them.  So many drugs, so many different people.  You know whenever doctors tell me it isn’t supposed to happen, it just means they don’t know about it Michelle

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have found that taking chlorpheniramine (an antihistamine found in OTC medications such as Chlor-Trimeton) can stop my migraines within 15 minutes in many cases.  However, both pharmacists and doctors tell me that this isn’t supposed to happen.  But it sill works.  Can anyone tell me why?  I try aspirin, acetaminophen, codeine, and ibuprofen, but ultimately if all else fails I take chlorpheniramine, and very often that works (the reason I don’t take it to begin with is that it puts me to sleep). Any suggestions on why this particular medication works for my migraines, even though it’s "not supposed to work"?  Aren’t antihistamines usually effective treatments for migraines, or is it the other way around? — Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.

Response:

Rick writes: The only explanation I can think of is that your headaches aren’t migraines, but are tension headaches instead.  Antihistimines are effective (especially in conjunction with analgesics) to treat this type of headache.

I thought they were tension or sinus, too, but a doctor pointed out to me that virtually all my symptoms are consistent with migraines: pain on one side of the head (usually the same side), a feeling that something is drilling or splitting into that part of the head, a change when I move around, nausea, watering eye on the headache side, sensitivity to smells, light, and some sounds, triggers that include barometric pressure changes and certain types of pollution or smells, etc. Anyway, it does seem like a migraine, but antihistamine still works. BTW, why would antihistamine be effective against tension headaches? — Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.

Response:

I have found that taking chlorpheniramine (an antihistamine found in OTC medications such as Chlor-Trimeton) can stop my migraines within 15 minutes in many cases.  However, both pharmacists and doctors tell me that this isn’t supposed to happen.  But it sill works.  Can anyone tell me why?  I try aspirin, acetaminophen, codeine, and ibuprofen, but ultimately if all else fails I take chlorpheniramine, and very often that works (the reason I don’t take it to begin with is that it puts me to sleep). Any suggestions on why this particular medication works for my migraines, even though it’s "not supposed to work"?  Aren’t antihistamines usually effective treatments for migraines, or is it the other way around?

The only explanation I can think of is that your headaches aren’t migraines, but are tension headaches instead.  Antihistimines are effective (especially in conjunction with analgesics) to treat this type of headache. Rick

Response:

Question:

I had tried Accolate without much luck.  I am now on Singulair.  My doctor’s hope was not to replace the Flovent, but to reduce it.  I used to trigger very quickly when I hit the top numbers of my yellow zone, but now I seem not to trigger so quick.  This its self is a big help.

Response:

Hi, Accolate is a good preventive medication. There are some report that it can help some of the symptoms of allergic rhintis. I use it  to some of my pateints older than 12 years old. For those with problems during or after  exercise I use Serevent which lasts up to 12 hours. I am using Singulair, another leukotriene receptor antagonist  to some of patients as young as 6 years old.  It is given only once a day.  I am no sure if it is approved in Canada. If you want to read more about Singulair and other new reserch in asthma visit our website     www.e-asthma.com Leo

Response:

I’ve been finding that it is doing a pretty good job of controlling my symptoms, certainly as good as the steroids or better. It did appear to be doing wonders for my eczema, though my season for this is now over so it is hard to draw conclusions.  I notice, however, that my symptoms were resurfacing when one of my main triggers rolled into town — high humidity for several weeks. The humidity having tapered down, though, I have even been able to get in some fairly intensive short-term biking runs with no problems (using salbutamol as a preventative prior to exercise) and I feel great afterward, my lungs actually working for once.

You should discuss an ‘asthma action plan’ with your doctor.  This is a written set of instructions (tailored for _you_) that instructs when to increase or decrease your medications. I’d be interesting in hearing how others are doing with this and related medications. I’m particularly interested in the one which can be taken WITH food, as even two pills a day outside of meals can be a pain with my crazy schedules.

You seem to be one of the lucky people.  According to the manufactuer about 75% of the people who try Accolate benefit – while antecodal reports in the newsgroup indicates that for 50% of the people it is the greatest stuff invented, but it has no effect (of any sort) on the other 50%. There is a new medication that has been released in the US called ‘Singulair’.  It works in a manner similar to Accolate but only needs to be taken once a day and you do not have to worry about meals.

Response:

I haven’t noticed anything recently on the ng, and was wondering what results people are achieving with Accolate or other leukotriene receptor antagonist medication (Lra’s?).

[...] I’d be interesting in hearing how others are doing with this and related medications. I’m particularly interested in the one which can be taken WITH food, as even two pills a day outside of meals can be a pain with my crazy schedules.

I started Singulair (montelukast sodium) about two months ago.  It’s a once-a-day medication, which I take at night.  I have been feeling much better, and have not used MaxAir for weeks (I still use Serevent twice a day).  It doesn’t seem to have improved my breath meter results, but people tell me that I sound and look better.  A number of friends and acquaintances have complained about their allergies recently, but I haven’t noticed anything.  Also, I sing in a chorus, and I am now able to sing in a higher range with more volume than previously.

Response:

I haven’t noticed anything recently on the ng, and was wondering what results people are achieving with Accolate or other leukotriene receptor antagonist medication (Lra’s?). I’ve got what I would call mild but persistent athsma. My athsma has been worsening for the past five years, I typically have normal peak flow readings (when tested), and I’ve had a few real attacks. My known triggers in quasi order of severity are: cold/dry air(!!!), humid air(!!!), grass pollen(!), tree pollen(!), mould, mildew, cats, wet dogs (not dust mites). I suspect I have some very minor food allergies, but haven’t tested for them. I also live with three cats, to my allergists chagrin. I also have a mild case of eczema which flares up during the dry air conditions of the Canadian winter; I have developed very dry/cracking skin on my hands during the winter. Having spent a few years with only a rescue inhaler (Salbutamol/Ventilin), I started taking a low inhaled steroid dose (100-200 mcg/day) last fall due to worsening symptoms. Now that Accolate is finally available in Canada, I have started using it as a replacement for the steroids that I never wanted (6 weeks now). I’ve been finding that it is doing a pretty good job of controlling my symptoms, certainly as good as the steroids or better. It did appear to be doing wonders for my eczema, though my season for this is now over so it is hard to draw conclusions.  I notice, however, that my symptoms were resurfacing when one of my main triggers rolled into town — high humidity for several weeks. The humidity having tapered down, though, I have even been able to get in some fairly intensive short-term biking runs with no problems (using salbutamol as a preventative prior to exercise) and I feel great afterward, my lungs actually working for once. I’d be interesting in hearing how others are doing with this and related medications. I’m particularly interested in the one which can be taken WITH food, as even two pills a day outside of meals can be a pain with my crazy schedules. Dave Anderson (Ottawa, ON Canada) — [Reply to e-mail address modified to prevent spamming]

Response:

Question:

I took it for about 6 weeks and all I got were headaches. My doctor just prescribed Singulair for my asthama. I was looking forward to taking it to see if it would help, until I read the information sheet from the pharmacy. There are alot of potenital side effects, and it kind of spooked me. Anyone else have any side effects, besides nightmares and headaches? Thanks!

The ONLY side effect I had from taking Singulair, was being a little more emotional than normal.  I have always been a sensitive person, but I would cry at a commercial if it was sentimental at all.  Silly, isn’t it?  Well, once I got on Zoloft (part of my migraine prevention routine), my emotional state has returned to normal.   Just my 2 cents..Good Luck, I hope Singulair works well for you! *hugs* Ash

Response:

I asked my doctor about taking the Singulair in the morning and he thought it would be ok.  He asked the rep. and they didn’t know why it was to be a night time dose. I can tell that it is working because I only need my rescue inhaler a few times a week instead of every day.  I do not like the weird dreams so I will cont. to take in the morning until I receive a "good" reason why I should take in the night.  Pam.

Response:

I take Singulair in the morning also.  I found if taken at night it makes my insomnia much worse.  Taking it in the morning works much better for me. I asked my doctor about taking the Singulair in the morning and he thought it would be ok.  He asked the rep. and they didn’t know why it was to be a night time dose. I can tell that it is working because I only need my rescue inhaler a few times a week instead of every day.  I do not like the weird dreams so I will cont. to take in the morning until I receive a "good" reason why I should take in the night.  Pam.

– Lisa M. DeSavage Hinsbar Laboratories, Inc. www.hinsbarlabs.com

Response:

From the Singular web page: Like all prescription drugs, SINGULAIR may cause side effects. In studies, side effects usually have been mild. They generally have not caused patients to stop taking SINGULAIR. The list below is NOT a complete list of side effects reported with SINGULAIR. Your doctor can discuss with you a more complete list of side effects. The side effects in patients treated with SINGULAIR were similar in type and frequency to side effects in patients who were given a placebo (a pill containing no medication). Some of the side effects reported in studies included: tiredness fever abdominal (stomach) pain stomach or intestinal upset (gastroenteritis) heartburn dizziness headache rash Additionally, the following have been reported:  allergic reactions such as swelling of the face, lips, tongue, and/or throat, which may cause difficulty in breathing or swallowing, hives, and itching; dream abnormalities, drowsiness, irritability, and restlessness. A condition, which includes a combination of certain persistent or worsening symptoms, has been reported rarely in patients given SINGULAIR. These symptoms may include: a flu-like illness, rash, pins and needles or numbness of arms or legs, and severe sinusitis. These have occurred usually, but not always, in patients whose oral corticosteroid medicine for asthma is being reduced. Although SINGULAIR has not been shown to cause this condition, you must tell your doctor immediately if you experience a combination of these symptoms. Remember, anytime you have a medical problem you think may be related to SINGULAIR, talk to your doctor. Tim – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Then that’s what it is!  I just started having bizarre dreams — sometimes nightmares — about a month ago.   And it did start about a week or so after I started the Singulair.  The Singulair is definitely helping me.  I don’t feel like I have a bad chest cold all of the time anymore (yeah!).   And I’ve been waking up at least twice every night for about 3 years now, so I guess I can live with the nightmares.  I’ll ask my doctor about it the next time I see him.  Thanx! Regarding nightmares: I think I read in a magazine ad (the part on the back of the ad that contains all the technical information about a drug) that Singulair can cause vivid dreams. You may want to discuss this rare side-effect with your doctor. I regularly have vivid dreams, I did both before and after going on Singulair last spring, but I have noticed an increase in the frequency of these dreams, rarely bad, since starting the med. Because I am used to the dreams anyway, they don’t bother me. Anyone else notice this when they started Singulair? Lisa S. — Starlight Bridals                  TOLL FREE!  888-VEILS-33 Affordable headpieces, veils, and more! Since 1995… http://starlightbridals.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My daughter  (20 yr old) is starting to have great relief with singulair. Night time asthma attacks are becoming less severe but she is having nightmares……and she feels there is some connection….anyone else experience this? Anne

Response:

I prefer morning too, so thanks for letting me know. I’ll ask my doc about it.

Response:

I took it for about 6 weeks and all I got were headaches. My doctor just prescribed Singulair for my asthama. I was looking forward to taking it to see if it would help, until I read the information sheet from the pharmacy. There are alot of potenital side effects, and it kind of spooked me. Anyone else have any side effects, besides nightmares and headaches?

Singulair is considered to ba a very safe medication.  The trick when looking for side effects is to compare the medication side effects with the placebo side effects.  The difference in the rates of the side effects suggest the likelihood of an actual side effect of the medication. No electrons were harmed in the posting of this message.

Response:

My doc switched me from Singulair to Accolate because I experienced numbness in my extremities and lips (of all places!) plus I was really disoriented when taking it.  Sort of spaced out feeling. Patrice – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I took it for about 6 weeks and all I got were headaches. My doctor just prescribed Singulair for my asthama. I was looking forward to taking it to see if it would help, until I read the information sheet from the pharmacy. There are alot of potenital side effects, and it kind of spooked me. Anyone else have any side effects, besides nightmares and headaches? Thanks!

Response:

i

Question:

::Hi, Philip, ::No I didn’t know that.  Today I did NOT have a cig.  I hope to be smoke-free ::as of today… C*O*N*G*R*A*T*U*L*A*T*I*O*N*S!!!!! Wishing you continued success with being smoke-free. (((((Elise))))) Jackie ~*~When they discover the center of the universe, a lot of people will be disappointed to discover they are not it~*~           ~~ Bernard Bailey

That is SO WONDERFUL!!!  I am so proud of you! (((((((Elise))))))) Sally — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, Sally, My appt isn’t until Tuesday but at least I have that to look forward to. Same here with the leaves.  Then many seem to land right in front of my garage door. We keep the doors down so the leaves aren’t all in the garage. Any bites on the house? smiles, Elise I am SO GLAD you get to go to the doctor tomorrow.  You really need that appointment.  Isn’t this wind something else??  We have no trees in our yard, but thanks to the wind, I have about as many leaves as the rest of the neighbors.  Not only that, but the wind blew down my For Sale sign, and I had to put it back up, and the bird bath keeps filling up with leaves!!!!  Grab on to something and hold on so you don’t blow away!! ((((((((((((((((((u))))))))))))))))))))) Sally

Elise, I’ve got that exact same thing with my garage door. What’s up with that?  Why do all the leaves congregate right at the door?? No, so far we haven’t had an offers on the house.  I’m getting lookers about every other day now.  My aunt keeps telling me that all I need is just ONE buyer..so I’ve got my fingers crossed.  Thanks for asking. Sally — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Hi, Dawn, I wish I knew what to say to make it all better for you.  Not being an expert in anything psychological, I am not sure how suppressed feelings effect one’s well being, and if there is a benefit to getting them out.   Logic says yes, but that sure doesn’t help the way you are feeling.

***Right now I have mixed feelings over it.  I’ve wanted my emotional being back for a long time but now that it seems to be coming through I have some fears of how it will affect me.  I keep trying to remind myself that much of what I feel is natural and that’s it’s all been locked up in there for so long…  I need to remember to deep breath and do self-positive talk. I also wish I could help with the Wellbutrin. I have considered it myself to counterbalance my sedating (ha–not for me!) AD, but am not sure about the stimulating effect it is purported to have.   It does sound like it’s working for you to some degree. Weight loss is a good thing, right?  I’m with you there .

***Yes, weight loss has been an issue for me for a long time with the ADs. I really want to lose some weight before my daughter’s wedding.  I think I need to ask the phy asst what to expect from upping the med.  I really should be on 300 mgs by now but I took such a long time getting off the Zoloft hoping NOT to need an AD that I’m way behind where I should be.  Oh well, I’ll probably hear about that…ugh! I don’t know what else is happening in your life, but I hope that things get better and easier for you very soon.  If you posted about it, I apologize for missing it.  I miss a lot of posts.

***No, I haven’t posted about many of the issues going on in my life.  I always try to be the problem solver and not the person needing help.  Stupid me…at times. I hope things are going well for you, Dawn… smiles, Elise ((((((((((((Elise))))))))))))) Love, Dawn — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

– The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

::And yes there are many things going on in my life also now I am down to 1 ::cig a day (and have been for 2 weeks now). Dear Elise, It`s very important you tell your the NP on Tuesday that you have almost quit smoking. From a few of your posts today I get the feeling you are suffering from depression. Of course only your doctor can tell you that for sure. Smoking may have been a way of self-medicating your depression. I remember a famous NY baseball player in 97 that suffered a bad depression after he quit smoking. Just wanted to make sure you mention this to your doctor. (((((Elise)))))

I had the same thing happen but the other way around.  As soon as I started Nortriptyline, without trying or giving it any thought, I went from about 20 a day to 5 a day.  I wish I could just quit all together! Tono — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

::Hi, Philip, ::No I didn’t know that.  Today I did NOT have a cig.  I hope to be smoke-free ::as of today… C*O*N*G*R*A*T*U*L*A*T*I*O*N*S!!!!! Wishing you continued success with being smoke-free. (((((Elise))))) Jackie ~*~When they discover the center of the universe, a lot of people will be disappointed to discover they are not it~*~           ~~ Bernard Bailey — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <Gently snipped ::I am also taking Clonazepam 1mg twice daily and Inderal, as needed. ::Many different issues going on in my life right now – good things, stressful ::things and issues I have no control over. ::Any insight from anyone on Wellbutrin XL?  Or any thoughts from anyone…  I ::do have a doctor’s appointment scheduled for Tuesday if my daughter is able ::to take me since this is out of my safe driving zone. Dear Elise, I`m sorry you are feeling so out of sorts with yourself. You are one of the most beautiful people I know and it saddens me to think you feel so badly about yourself. <snip Jackie

Let me also say that I feel the same way as Jackie wrote. Tono — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Hi, Jackie, I did put the smoking on my list for the doctor’s appt.  I’m trying to do a short-term time line so I can have that to reference to during the appt. Thanks, Jackie. smiles, Elise

I take it that you’re aware of the fact that Wellbutrin is also marketed under the name of *Zyban* to help quit smoking? P. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Dear Elise, It`s very important you tell your the NP on Tuesday that you have almost quit smoking. From a few of your posts today I get the feeling you are suffering from depression. Of course only your doctor can tell you that for sure. Smoking may have been a way of self-medicating your depression. I remember a famous NY baseball player in 97 that suffered a bad depression after he quit smoking. Just wanted to make sure you mention this to your doctor. (((((Elise))))) Jackie ~*~When they discover the center of the universe, a lot of people will be disappointed to discover they are not it~*~          ~~ Bernard Bailey — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

– The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Hi, Philip, No I didn’t know that.  Today I did NOT have a cig.  I hope to be smoke-free as of today… smiles, Elise

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, Jackie, I did put the smoking on my list for the doctor’s appt.  I’m trying to do a short-term time line so I can have that to reference to during the appt. Thanks, Jackie. smiles, Elise I take it that you’re aware of the fact that Wellbutrin is also marketed under the name of *Zyban* to help quit smoking? P. Dear Elise, It`s very important you tell your the NP on Tuesday that you have almost quit smoking. From a few of your posts today I get the feeling you are suffering from depression. Of course only your doctor can tell you that for sure. Smoking may have been a way of self-medicating your depression. I remember a famous NY baseball player in 97 that suffered a bad depression after he quit smoking. Just wanted to make sure you mention this to your doctor. (((((Elise))))) Jackie ~*~When they discover the center of the universe, a lot of people will be disappointed to discover they are not it~*~          ~~ Bernard Bailey — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

– The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Hi, Chip, I do feel many of those behaviors are part of what I am going through. Suicidal no, but wishing it would all end at times has been running through my mind lately. I thought about going back on the Zoloft but I just don’t can’t take the weight gain.  I’m going to do a small time line of how things have come down lately so I have something that the phy asst can see and be able to question me from. smiles, Elise

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I`m wondering if you are depressed. With depression comes stinkin thinkin and low sense of self-worth. I think Elise is depressed. It seemed to start when she weaned off the Zoloft. She also felt a little better when she started the Wellbutrin. Which is also consistant with depression.  I weaned off Zoloft several years ago to see how I’d do without it, and got depressed, so I restarted the Zoloft and the depression resolved. Chip below are diagnostic criteria for Major Depressive Episode: Criteria for Major Depressive Episode A. Five (or more) of the following symptoms have been present during the same 2-week period and represent a change from previous functioning; at least one of the symptoms is either    (1) depressed mood or    (2) loss of interest or pleasure. Note: Do not include symptoms that are clearly due to a general medical condition, or mood-incongruent delusions or hallucinations. (1) depressed mood most of the day, nearly every day, as indicated by either subjective report (e.g., feels sad or empty) or observation made by others (e.g., appears tearful). Note: In children and adolescents, can be irritable mood. (2) markedly diminished interest or pleasure in all, or almost all, activities most of the day, nearly every day (as indicated by either subjective account or observation made by others) (3) significant weight loss when not dieting or weight gain (e.g., a change of more than 5% of body weight in a month), or decrease or increase in appetite nearly every day. Note: In children, consider failure to make expected weight gains. (4) Insomnia or Hypersomnia nearly every day (5) psychomotor agitation or retardation nearly every day (observable by others, not merely subjective feelings of restlessness or being slowed down) (6) fatigue or loss of energy nearly every day (7) feelings of worthlessness or excessive or inappropriate guilt (which may be delusional) nearly every day (not merely self-reproach or guilt about being sick) (8) diminished ability to think or concentrate, or indecisiveness, nearly every day (either by subjective account or as observed by others) (9) recurrent thoughts of death (not just fear of dying), recurrent suicidal ideation without a specific plan, or a suicide attempt or a specific plan for committing suicide B. The symptoms do not meet criteria for a Mixed Episode (of manic depression) C. The symptoms cause clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning. D. The symptoms are not due to the direct physiological effects of a substance (e.g., a drug of abuse, a medication) or a general medical condition (e.g., hypothyroidism). E. The symptoms are not better accounted for by Bereavement, i.e., after the loss of a loved one, the symptoms persist for longer than 2 months or are characterized by marked functional impairment, morbid preoccupation with worthlessness, suicidal ideation, psychotic symptoms, or psychomotor retardation. Reprinted without the permission from the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, fourth Edition. Copyright 1994 American Psychiatric Association — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

– The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Hi, Sally, My appt isn’t until Tuesday but at least I have that to look forward to. Same here with the leaves.  Then many seem to land right in front of my garage door. We keep the doors down so the leaves aren’t all in the garage. Any bites on the house? smiles, Elise – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am SO GLAD you get to go to the doctor tomorrow.  You really need that appointment.  Isn’t this wind something else??  We have no trees in our yard, but thanks to the wind, I have about as many leaves as the rest of the neighbors.  Not only that, but the wind blew down my For Sale sign, and I had to put it back up, and the bird bath keeps filling up with leaves!!!!  Grab on to something and hold on so you don’t blow away!! ((((((((((((((((((u))))))))))))))))))))) Sally — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

– The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Hi, Jackie, I did put the smoking on my list for the doctor’s appt.  I’m trying to do a short-term time line so I can have that to reference to during the appt. Thanks, Jackie. smiles, Elise – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dear Elise, It`s very important you tell your the NP on Tuesday that you have almost quit smoking. From a few of your posts today I get the feeling you are suffering from depression. Of course only your doctor can tell you that for sure. Smoking may have been a way of self-medicating your depression. I remember a famous NY baseball player in 97 that suffered a bad depression after he quit smoking. Just wanted to make sure you mention this to your doctor. (((((Elise))))) Jackie ~*~When they discover the center of the universe, a lot of people will be

disappointed to discover they are not it~*~           ~~ Bernard Bailey — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

– The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, Sally, Thank you for your caring reply.  Yeah, I know I do and have had a lot on my plate.  I agree with your pdoc about the meds not always being the problem but how much is in the equation.  Very wise.  I was thinking of that very same thing a while ago before I took a nap.  I always have to be my problem solver…<g My daughter is able to go with me so at least I now have that "hope" to live on for my appointment. I hope you aren’t getting blown away with the wind. smiles, Elise Hi, all, Well I feel like melting down is exactly what I am doing now.  I feel ugly about my inner self and the world around me.  I have nothing nice to say to anyone directly in my life and actually think of ugly things I could say to them.  Maybe I’ve suppressed my feelings for so long that everything is coming to a head. I did make the med change to Wellbutrin XL, finally, about the beginning of October.  Prior to that I was attempting to wean off the Zoloft and was down to such a minute amount and starting to feel this ugliness inside me and extremely short tempered.  This is when I went onto the Wellbutrin XL 150 mgs and started to feel a bit better.  I increased it again last week by 75 mgs.  The short temperedness has gone away. The only plus side is that I lost some weight about 3 weeks into the process of weaning off the Zoloft and going onto the Wellbutrin XL.  I am aware that I am finally experiencing some feelings which has been an issue for me for years due to them being blunted.  I feel like I’m in a catch 22 right now. Go back on a different AD then possibly weight goes on with that and my feelings get blunted or stay on the Wellbutrin XL and either I continue to feel this ugliness or maybe given time things will change since the short-temperedness did go away. I am also taking Clonazepam 1mg twice daily and Inderal, as needed. Many different issues going on in my life right now – good things, stressful things and issues I have no control over. Any insight from anyone on Wellbutrin XL?  Or any thoughts from anyone…  I do have a doctor’s appointment scheduled for Tuesday if my daughter is able to take me since this is out of my safe driving zone. smiles, Elise ((((((((Elise))))))))))) I was afraid of something like this.  Not because of the meds, but because of the situational stuff going on in your life.  A med change in the middle of all that just complicates matters. I can’t answer the med questions either, but I know there are people here who can.  Personally, I wouldn’t let weight gain even be a factor about whether to take a med or not.  I mean, we’re not talking about 30 pounds or anything.  Just a few, and you can up your excersize and work them off, so don’t let that even be a factor in what you decide on doing about your meds. Oh, I do hope you can make your appointment!  Tell your daughter it’s REAL important that you go.  You really need to talk to your pdoc about the symptoms you are having.  And also, I will say this.  When we found out my mother was dying I talked to my pdoc about whether we should do a med change or something to help me through it.  He was an older man. I liked him so much and he was so wise.  He just kind of looked at me and said "There’s no magic pill for situations like this." — Realize that you are under pressure from all sides of you, and factor that into the equation too.  It’s more than just the meds.  You have so much on your plate that it’s no wonder you’re melting down.  Even someone without anxiety issues would be doing the same thing. (((((((((((Elise))))))))))  you are always there for all of us.  I hope we can be there for you.  I hope some others here can give you advice about the meds, and you know, my inbox is always open to you if you need to vent. Love, Sally

Elise, I am SO GLAD you get to go to the doctor tomorrow.  You really need that appointment.  Isn’t this wind something else??  We have no trees in our yard, but thanks to the wind, I have about as many leaves as the rest of the neighbors.  Not only that, but the wind blew down my For Sale sign, and I had to put it back up, and the bird bath keeps filling up with leaves!!!!  Grab on to something and hold on so you don’t blow away!! ((((((((((((((((((u))))))))))))))))))))) Sally — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

I`m wondering if you are depressed. With depression comes stinkin thinkin and low sense of self-worth.

I think Elise is depressed. It seemed to start when she weaned off the Zoloft. She also felt a little better when she started the Wellbutrin. Which is also consistant with depression.  I weaned off Zoloft several years ago to see how I’d do without it, and got depressed, so I restarted the Zoloft and the depression resolved. Chip below are diagnostic criteria for Major Depressive Episode: Criteria for Major Depressive Episode A. Five (or more) of the following symptoms have been present during the same 2-week period and represent a change from previous functioning; at least one of the symptoms is either    (1) depressed mood or    (2) loss of interest or pleasure. Note: Do not include symptoms that are clearly due to a general medical condition, or mood-incongruent delusions or hallucinations. (1) depressed mood most of the day, nearly every day, as indicated by either subjective report (e.g., feels sad or empty) or observation made by others (e.g., appears tearful). Note: In children and adolescents, can be irritable mood. (2) markedly diminished interest or pleasure in all, or almost all, activities most of the day, nearly every day (as indicated by either subjective account or observation made by others) (3) significant weight loss when not dieting or weight gain (e.g., a change of more than 5% of body weight in a month), or decrease or increase in appetite nearly every day. Note: In children, consider failure to make expected weight gains. (4) Insomnia or Hypersomnia nearly every day (5) psychomotor agitation or retardation nearly every day (observable by others, not merely subjective feelings of restlessness or being slowed down) (6) fatigue or loss of energy nearly every day (7) feelings of worthlessness or excessive or inappropriate guilt (which may be delusional) nearly every day (not merely self-reproach or guilt about being sick) (8) diminished ability to think or concentrate, or indecisiveness, nearly every day (either by subjective account or as observed by others) (9) recurrent thoughts of death (not just fear of dying), recurrent suicidal ideation without a specific plan, or a suicide attempt or a specific plan for committing suicide B. The symptoms do not meet criteria for a Mixed Episode (of manic depression) C. The symptoms cause clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning. D. The symptoms are not due to the direct physiological effects of a substance (e.g., a drug of abuse, a medication) or a general medical condition (e.g., hypothyroidism). E. The symptoms are not better accounted for by Bereavement, i.e., after the loss of a loved one, the symptoms persist for longer than 2 months or are characterized by marked functional impairment, morbid preoccupation with worthlessness, suicidal ideation, psychotic symptoms, or psychomotor retardation. Reprinted without the permission from the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, fourth Edition. Copyright 1994 American Psychiatric Association — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

::And yes there are many things going on in my life also now I am down to 1 ::cig a day (and have been for 2 weeks now). Dear Elise, It`s very important you tell your the NP on Tuesday that you have almost quit smoking. From a few of your posts today I get the feeling you are suffering from depression. Of course only your doctor can tell you that for sure. Smoking may have been a way of self-medicating your depression. I remember a famous NY baseball player in 97 that suffered a bad depression after he quit smoking. Just wanted to make sure you mention this to your doctor. (((((Elise))))) Jackie ~*~When they discover the center of the universe, a lot of people will be disappointed to discover they are not it~*~           ~~ Bernard Bailey — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, all, Well I feel like melting down is exactly what I am doing now.  I feel ugly about my inner self and the world around me.  I have nothing nice to say to anyone directly in my life and actually think of ugly things I could say to them.  Maybe I’ve suppressed my feelings for so long that everything is coming to a head. I did make the med change to Wellbutrin XL, finally, about the beginning of October.  Prior to that I was attempting to wean off the Zoloft and was down to such a minute amount and starting to feel this ugliness inside me and extremely short tempered.  This is when I went onto the Wellbutrin XL 150 mgs and started to feel a bit better.  I increased it again last week by 75 mgs.  The short temperedness has gone away. The only plus side is that I lost some weight about 3 weeks into the process of weaning off the Zoloft and going onto the Wellbutrin XL.  I am aware that I am finally experiencing some feelings which has been an issue for me for years due to them being blunted.  I feel like I’m in a catch 22 right now. Go back on a different AD then possibly weight goes on with that and my feelings get blunted or stay on the Wellbutrin XL and either I continue to feel this ugliness or maybe given time things will change since the short-temperedness did go away. I am also taking Clonazepam 1mg twice daily and Inderal, as needed. Many different issues going on in my life right now – good things, stressful things and issues I have no control over. Any insight from anyone on Wellbutrin XL?  Or any thoughts from anyone…  I do have a doctor’s appointment scheduled for Tuesday if my daughter is able to take me since this is out of my safe driving zone. smiles, Elise

Dearest Elise, I wish I knew what to say to make it all better for you.  Not being an expert in anything psychological, I am not sure how suppressed feelings effect one’s well being, and if there is a benefit to getting them out.   Logic says yes, but that sure doesn’t help the way you are feeling. I also wish I could help with the Wellbutrin. I have considered it myself to counterbalance my sedating (ha–not for me!) AD, but am not sure about the stimulating effect it is purported to have.   It does sound like it’s working for you to some degree. Weight loss is a good thing, right?  I’m with you there . I don’t know what else is happening in your life, but I hope that things get better and easier for you very soon.  If you posted about it, I apologize for missing it.  I miss a lot of posts. ((((((((((((Elise))))))))))))) Love, Dawn — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Hi, Jackie, Thank you for your support.  I will be seeing a phy asst who works under the Psychiatrist I used to see.  He just is so difficult to get an appointment with that I have found it easier on myself to see the PA instead. For some odd reason many articles about depression came my way today.  I’ve read them all and will be asking the PA about them.  One I found very interesting was the Vitamin B Deficiency checklist.  Wow, I could relate to everything the article said and the checklist was me on the dot. I’ll see what the appointment brings and keep myself moving one step at a time until then. smiles, Elise

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <Gently snipped ::I am also taking Clonazepam 1mg twice daily and Inderal, as needed. ::Many different issues going on in my life right now – good things, stressful ::things and issues I have no control over. ::Any insight from anyone on Wellbutrin XL?  Or any thoughts from anyone…  I ::do have a doctor’s appointment scheduled for Tuesday if my daughter is able ::to take me since this is out of my safe driving zone. Dear Elise, I`m sorry you are feeling so out of sorts with yourself. You are one of the most beautiful people I know and it saddens me to think you feel so badly about yourself. What kind of doctor would you be seeing on Tuesday? I hope it is a psychiatrist. He would be the best person to determine what may be going on. It doesn`t appear to be an issue with wellbutrin being this started before you even started it. I`m wondering if you are depressed. With depression comes stinkin thinkin and low sense of self-worth. Another option would be to see a therapist every week for a few months. I think it would do you a lot of good to explore these thoughts and emotions you are having. Keep talking to us, we`ll do our best to help and support you. (((((Elise))))) Jackie ~*~When they discover the center of the universe, a lot of people will be

disappointed to discover they are not it~*~           ~~ Bernard Bailey — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

– The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Hi, Chip, Hi, all, Well I feel like melting down is exactly what I am doing now.  I feel ugly about my inner self and the world around me. Those are thoughts (cognitive), not feelings (emotions). Negative thoughts lead to negative feelings. I have had the same thoughts and consequent feelings when I’m under a lot of stress.

***True but I am finding myself crying a lot today and feeling off kilter. I have nothing nice to say to anyone directly in my life and actually

think of ugly things I could say to them.  Maybe I’ve suppressed my feelings for so long that everything is coming to a head. Could be. Or maybe you’re under a lot of stress right now which  leads to negative thoughts and feelings about oneself and the world.

***I hope it is the stress and I can find a ay to break it all down into smaller pieces and deal with it. I did make the med change to Wellbutrin XL, finally, about the beginning of October.  Prior to that I was attempting to wean off the Zoloft and was down to such a minute amount and starting to feel this ugliness inside me and extremely short tempered. Irritability could be due to Zoloft withdrawal or depression. Or anything that makes one feel uncomfortable. When I’m depressed I get irritable.

***TFortunately, the extreme irritability went away after I started on the Wellbutrin XL now I get these ugly thoughts about people maybe over something they done or said to me and I just want to throw it right back in their face.  This is truly not me.  I’ve always been one to take the higher road even when i was more tempting to take the lower road. This is when I went onto the Wellbutrin XL 150 mgs and started to feel a bit better. Better in what way?

***The irritability and agitation have gone away.  I increased it again last week by 75 mgs.  The short temperedness has gone away. The only plus side is that I lost some weight about 3 weeks into the process of weaning off the Zoloft and going onto the Wellbutrin XL.  I am aware that I am finally experiencing some feelings which has been an issue for me for years due to them being blunted. Do you mean blunted by meds?

***No.  I haven’t been able to cry, show true happiness or joy, even get really mad.  I’ve had the Zoloft there keeping me at such an even par that excitement or fury didn’t appeal or bother me. What feelings and emotions have you blunted?

***Happiness, sadness, joy, excitement, anger, etc… I feel like I’m in a catch 22 right now. Go back on a different AD then possibly weight goes on with that and my feelings get blunted or stay on the Wellbutrin XL and either I continue to feel this ugliness or maybe given time things will change since the short-temperedness did go away. Since you have several factors going on in your life right now, it’s difficult to speculate how changing just one (such as a med change) would effect how you think and feel.

***I have been on many of the different ADs and feel I have a sense of how I feel when on or off of them. And yes there are many things going on in my life also now I am down to 1 cig a day (and have been for 2 weeks now).  I don’t feel I have any desire or cravings for a cig outside of the one I have in the a.m.  I have wondered today about the nicotine though.  What if any role after almost 3 months of weaning off them (some mornings not even thinkuing about having a cig.) if this could be a problem also. What do you think has led to your irritablility?

***Good question?  Weaning off  Zoloft?  Going on the Wellbutrin XL? Quitting smoking?  A combination of everything… I am also taking Clonazepam 1mg twice daily and Inderal, as needed. Many different issues going on in my life right now – good things, stressful things and issues I have no control over. What don’t you have control over?

***Work especially.  It’s been a disappointment and lack of confidence in the executive dirctor for several years for the majority of the office. When it truly gets down to dealing with the situation which we did we have "The Good Old Boys" show up at a staff meeting and  basically tell US to be quiet, lay low, clean your houses, do your job…  So no support there which says she runs the show.  Very disappointing and sad for an agency to be run by such an inept person…ugh! (((Elise))), you have a lot of stresses occuring in your life right now. Both going on Wellbuitrin, and coming off Zoloft can be stressful. Plus your daughter’s shower and wedding are stresses. They need alot of planning. If anyone has enough stress on them, they can feel uncomfortable and irritable, and the whole world can start looking ugly. Below are a list of negative "core beliefs". They may be helpful to you. Maybe they apply to you at this time.

***Chip, from reading the list of "core beliefs", goodness I fit into so many right now.  I will forward these to work and read them off and on the next few days to give me the strength to get through.  I know in time I will make a turn around but it’s so difficult when you feel you are right in the middle of the storm and have to ride it out. Thanks, Chip. smiles, Elise – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Chip Core Beliefs Core beliefs are one’s most central ideas about the self. Aaron Beck theorizes that negative core beliefs fall into two broad categories (see below): those associated with helplessness and those associated with unlovability. Some patients have core beliefs that fall in one category; others have core beliefs in both categories. These core beliefs develop in childhood as the child interacts with significant others and encounters a series of situations. For most of their lives most people may maintain relatively positive core beliefs. Negative core beliefs may surface only during times of psychological distress. Negative core beliefs are usually global, overgeneralized and absolute. When a core belief is activated, the patient is easily able to process information that supports it, but often fails to recognize or distorts information that is contrary to it. The cognitive therapist attempts to identify and modify negative core beliefs. Helpless core beliefs: I am helpless I am powerless I am out of control I am weak I am vulnerable I am needy I am trapped I am inadequate I am ineffective I am incompetent I am a failure I am disrespected Unlovable core beliefs: I am unlovable I am unlikable I am undesirable I am unattractive I am unwanted I am uncared for I am bad I am unworthy I am different I am bound to be rejected I am bound to be abandoned I am bound to be alone — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

– The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, all, Well I feel like melting down is exactly what I am doing now.  I feel ugly about my inner self and the world around me.  I have nothing nice to say to anyone directly in my life and actually think of ugly things I could say to them.  Maybe I’ve suppressed my feelings for so long that everything is coming to a head. I did make the med change to Wellbutrin XL, finally, about the beginning of October.  Prior to that I was attempting to wean off the Zoloft and was down to such a minute amount and starting to feel this ugliness inside me and extremely short tempered.  This is when I went onto the Wellbutrin XL 150 mgs and started to feel a bit better.  I increased it again last week by 75 mgs.  The short temperedness has gone away. The only plus side is that I lost some weight about 3 weeks into the process of weaning off the Zoloft and going onto the Wellbutrin XL.  I am aware that I am finally experiencing some feelings which has been an issue for me for years due to them being blunted.  I feel like I’m in a catch 22 right now. Go back on a different AD then possibly weight goes on with that and my feelings get blunted or stay on the Wellbutrin XL and either I continue to feel this ugliness or maybe given time things will change since the short-temperedness did go away. I am also taking Clonazepam 1mg twice daily and Inderal, as needed. Many different issues going on in my life right now – good things, stressful things and issues I have no control over. Any insight from anyone on Wellbutrin XL?  Or any thoughts from anyone…  I do have a doctor’s appointment scheduled for Tuesday if my daughter is able to take me since this is out of my safe driving zone. smiles, Elise

((((((((Elise))))))))))) I was afraid of something like this.  Not because of the meds, but because of the situational stuff going on in your life.  A med change in the middle of all that just complicates matters. I can’t answer the med questions either, but I know there are people here who can.  Personally, I wouldn’t let weight gain even be a factor about whether to take a med or not.  I mean, we’re not talking about 30 pounds or anything.  Just a few, and you can up your excersize and work them off, so don’t let that even be a factor in what you decide on doing about your meds. Oh, I do hope you can make your appointment!  Tell your daughter it’s REAL important that you go.  You really need to talk to your pdoc about the symptoms you are having.  And also, I will say this.  When we found out my mother was dying I talked to my pdoc about whether we should do a med change or something to help me through it.  He was an older man. I liked him so much and he was so wise.  He just kind of looked at me and said "There’s no magic pill for situations like this." — Realize that you are under pressure from all sides of you, and factor that into the equation too.  It’s more than just the meds.  You have so much on your plate that it’s no wonder you’re melting down.  Even someone without anxiety issues would be doing the same thing. (((((((((((Elise))))))))))  you are always there for all of us.  I hope we can be there for you.  I hope some others here can give you advice about the meds, and you know, my inbox is always open to you if you need to vent. Love, Sally — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Hi, Sally, Thank you for your caring reply.  Yeah, I know I do and have had a lot on my plate.  I agree with your pdoc about the meds not always being the problem but how much is in the equation.  Very wise.  I was thinking of that very same thing a while ago before I took a nap.  I always have to be my problem solver…<g My daughter is able to go with me so at least I now have that "hope" to live on for my appointment. I hope you aren’t getting blown away with the wind. smiles, Elise

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, all, Well I feel like melting down is exactly what I am doing now.  I feel ugly about my inner self and the world around me.  I have nothing nice to say to anyone directly in my life and actually think of ugly things I could say to them.  Maybe I’ve suppressed my feelings for so long that everything is coming to a head. I did make the med change to Wellbutrin XL, finally, about the beginning of October.  Prior to that I was attempting to wean off the Zoloft and was down to such a minute amount and starting to feel this ugliness inside me and extremely short tempered.  This is when I went onto the Wellbutrin XL 150 mgs and started to feel a bit better.  I increased it again last week by 75 mgs.  The short temperedness has gone away. The only plus side is that I lost some weight about 3 weeks into the process of weaning off the Zoloft and going onto the Wellbutrin XL.  I am aware that I am finally experiencing some feelings which has been an issue for me for years due to them being blunted.  I feel like I’m in a catch 22 right now. Go back on a different AD then possibly weight goes on with that and my feelings get blunted or stay on the Wellbutrin XL and either I continue to feel this ugliness or maybe given time things will change since the short-temperedness did go away. I am also taking Clonazepam 1mg twice daily and Inderal, as needed. Many different issues going on in my life right now – good things, stressful things and issues I have no control over. Any insight from anyone on Wellbutrin XL?  Or any thoughts from anyone…  I do have a doctor’s appointment scheduled for Tuesday if my daughter is able to take me since this is out of my safe driving zone. smiles, Elise ((((((((Elise))))))))))) I was afraid of something like this.  Not because of the meds, but because of the situational stuff going on in your life.  A med change in the middle of all that just complicates matters. I can’t answer the med questions either, but I know there are people here who can.  Personally, I wouldn’t let weight gain even be a factor about whether to take a med or not.  I mean, we’re not talking about 30 pounds or anything.  Just a few, and you can up your excersize and work them off, so don’t let that even be a factor in what you decide on doing about your meds. Oh, I do hope you can make your appointment!  Tell your daughter it’s REAL important that you go.  You really need to talk to your pdoc about the symptoms you are having.  And also, I will say this.  When we found out my mother was dying I talked to my pdoc about whether we should do a med change or something to help me through it.  He was an older man. I liked him so much and he was so wise.  He just kind of looked at me and said "There’s no magic pill for situations like this." — Realize that you are under pressure from all sides of you, and factor that into the equation too.  It’s more than just the meds.  You have so much on your plate that it’s no wonder you’re melting down.  Even someone without anxiety issues would be doing the same thing. (((((((((((Elise))))))))))  you are always there for all of us.  I hope we can be there for you.  I hope some others here can give you advice about the meds, and you know, my inbox is always open to you if you need to vent. Love, Sally — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

– The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

<Gently snipped ::I am also taking Clonazepam 1mg twice daily and Inderal, as needed. ::Many different issues going on in my life right now – good things, stressful ::things and issues I have no control over. ::Any insight from anyone on Wellbutrin XL?  Or any thoughts from anyone…  I ::do have a doctor’s appointment scheduled for Tuesday if my daughter is able ::to take me since this is out of my safe driving zone. Dear Elise, I`m sorry you are feeling so out of sorts with yourself. You are one of the most beautiful people I know and it saddens me to think you feel so badly about yourself. What kind of doctor would you be seeing on Tuesday? I hope it is a psychiatrist. He would be the best person to determine what may be going on. It doesn`t appear to be an issue with wellbutrin being this started before you even started it. I`m wondering if you are depressed. With depression comes stinkin thinkin and low sense of self-worth. Another option would be to see a therapist every week for a few months. I think it would do you a lot of good to explore these thoughts and emotions you are having. Keep talking to us, we`ll do our best to help and support you. (((((Elise))))) Jackie ~*~When they discover the center of the universe, a lot of people will be disappointed to discover they are not it~*~           ~~ Bernard Bailey — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Hi, Tono, Thank you for your kind words.  I have also been on Clonazepam for a few years now so don’t think that’s my problem.  It’s odd how much depression material I came cross today and not even looking for it.  I will talk with the phy. asst. on Tuesday and discuss some things with her. smiles, Elise

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, all, Well I feel like melting down is exactly what I am doing now.  I feel ugly about my inner self and the world around me.  I have nothing nice to say to anyone directly in my life and actually think of ugly things I could say to them.  Maybe I’ve suppressed my feelings for so long that everything is coming to a head. I did make the med change to Wellbutrin XL, finally, about the beginning of October.  Prior to that I was attempting to wean off the Zoloft and was down to such a minute amount and starting to feel this ugliness inside me and extremely short tempered.  This is when I went onto the Wellbutrin XL 150 mgs and started to feel a bit better.  I increased it again last week by 75 mgs.  The short temperedness has gone away. The only plus side is that I lost some weight about 3 weeks into the process of weaning off the Zoloft and going onto the Wellbutrin XL.  I am aware that I am finally experiencing some feelings which has been an issue for me for years due to them being blunted.  I feel like I’m in a catch 22 right now. Go back on a different AD then possibly weight goes on with that and my feelings get blunted or stay on the Wellbutrin XL and either I continue to feel this ugliness or maybe given time things will change since the short-temperedness did go away. I am also taking Clonazepam 1mg twice daily and Inderal, as needed. Many different issues going on in my life right now – good things, stressful things and issues I have no control over. Any insight from anyone on Wellbutrin XL?  Or any thoughts from anyone…  I do have a doctor’s appointment scheduled for Tuesday if my daughter is able to take me since this is out of my safe driving zone. smiles, Elise Hi Elise, I wish so much that I could help in some way, but I don’t know anything about Zoloft or Wellbutrin.  Clonazepam is a different story, I’ve been on it for ? 4 or 5 years?  I completely lost track of when I started it.   Anyway, if you are just starting it, that can blunt your emotions a bit, but that goes away fairly fast.  I’m on 6mg’s/day. I just want to say that you have always been a great regular here and over the years you have helped me personally and on the group, and I’m very thankful you are a part of this great group of people. (((((Elise))))) Tono — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

– The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, all, Well I feel like melting down is exactly what I am doing now.  I feel ugly about my inner self and the world around me.  I have nothing nice to say to anyone directly in my life and actually think of ugly things I could say to them.  Maybe I’ve suppressed my feelings for so long that everything is coming to a head. I did make the med change to Wellbutrin XL, finally, about the beginning of October.  Prior to that I was attempting to wean off the Zoloft and was down to such a minute amount and starting to feel this ugliness inside me and extremely short tempered.  This is when I went onto the Wellbutrin XL 150 mgs and started to feel a bit better.  I increased it again last week by 75 mgs.  The short temperedness has gone away. The only plus side is that I lost some weight about 3 weeks into the process of weaning off the Zoloft and going onto the Wellbutrin XL.  I am aware that I am finally experiencing some feelings which has been an issue for me for years due to them being blunted.  I feel like I’m in a catch 22 right now. Go back on a different AD then possibly weight goes on with that and my feelings get blunted or stay on the Wellbutrin XL and either I continue to feel this ugliness or maybe given time things will change since the short-temperedness did go away. I am also taking Clonazepam 1mg twice daily and Inderal, as needed. Many different issues going on in my life right now – good things, stressful things and issues I have no control over. Any insight from anyone on Wellbutrin XL?  Or any thoughts from anyone…  I do have a doctor’s appointment scheduled for Tuesday if my daughter is able to take me since this is out of my safe driving zone. smiles, Elise

Hi Elise, I wish so much that I could help in some way, but I don’t know anything about Zoloft or Wellbutrin.  Clonazepam is a different story, I’ve been on it for ? 4 or 5 years?  I completely lost track of when I started it.   Anyway, if you are just starting it, that can blunt your emotions a bit, but that goes away fairly fast.  I’m on 6mg’s/day. I just want to say that you have always been a great regular here and over the years you have helped me personally and on the group, and I’m very thankful you are a part of this great group of people. (((((Elise))))) Tono — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Hi, all, Well I feel like melting down is exactly what I am doing now.  I feel ugly about my inner self and the world around me.

Those are thoughts (cognitive), not feelings (emotions). Negative thoughts lead to negative feelings. I have had the same thoughts and consequent feelings when I’m under a lot of stress. I have nothing nice to say to anyone directly in my life and actually think of ugly things I could say to them.  Maybe I’ve suppressed my feelings for so long that everything is coming to a head.

Could be. Or maybe you’re under a lot of stress right now which  leads to negative thoughts and feelings about oneself and the world. I did make the med change to Wellbutrin XL, finally, about the beginning of October.  Prior to that I was attempting to wean off the Zoloft and was down to such a minute amount and starting to feel this ugliness inside me and extremely short tempered.

Irritability could be due to Zoloft withdrawal or depression. Or anything that makes one feel uncomfortable. When I’m depressed I get irritable. This is when I went onto the Wellbutrin XL 150 mgs and started to feel a bit better.

Better in what way?  I increased it again last week by 75 mgs.  The short temperedness has gone away. The only plus side is that I lost some weight about 3 weeks into the process of weaning off the Zoloft and going onto the Wellbutrin XL.  I am aware

that I am finally experiencing some feelings which has been an issue for me for years due to them being blunted.

Do you mean blunted by meds? What feelings and emotions have you blunted? I feel like I’m in a catch 22 right now. Go back on a different AD then possibly weight goes on with that and my feelings get blunted or stay on the Wellbutrin XL and either I continue to feel this ugliness or maybe given time things will change since the short-temperedness did go away.

Since you have several factors going on in your life right now, it’s difficult to speculate how changing just one (such as a med change) would effect how you think and feel. What do you think has led to your irritablility? I am also taking Clonazepam 1mg twice daily and Inderal, as needed. Many different issues going on in my life right now – good things, stressful things and issues I have no control over.

What don’t you have control over? (((Elise))), you have a lot of stresses occuring in your life right now. Both going on Wellbuitrin, and coming off Zoloft can be stressful. Plus your daughter’s shower and wedding are stresses. They need alot of planning. If anyone has enough stress on them, they can feel uncomfortable and irritable, and the whole world can start looking ugly. Below are a list of negative "core beliefs". They may be helpful to you. Maybe they apply to you at this time. Chip Core Beliefs Core beliefs are one’s most central ideas about the self. Aaron Beck theorizes that negative core beliefs fall into two broad categories (see below): those associated with helplessness and those associated with unlovability. Some patients have core beliefs that fall in one category; others have core beliefs in both categories. These core beliefs develop in childhood as the child interacts with significant others and encounters a series of situations. For most of their lives most people may maintain relatively positive core beliefs. Negative core beliefs may surface only during times of psychological distress. Negative core beliefs are usually global, overgeneralized and absolute. When a core belief is activated, the patient is easily able to process information that supports it, but often fails to recognize or distorts information that is contrary to it. The cognitive therapist attempts to identify and modify negative core beliefs. Helpless core beliefs: I am helpless I am powerless I am out of control I am weak I am vulnerable I am needy I am trapped I am inadequate I am ineffective I am incompetent I am a failure I am disrespected Unlovable core beliefs: I am unlovable I am unlikable I am undesirable I am unattractive I am unwanted I am uncared for I am bad I am unworthy I am different I am bound to be rejected I am bound to be abandoned I am bound to be alone — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Hi, all, Well I feel like melting down is exactly what I am doing now.  I feel ugly about my inner self and the world around me.  I have nothing nice to say to anyone directly in my life and actually think of ugly things I could say to them.  Maybe I’ve suppressed my feelings for so long that everything is coming to a head. I did make the med change to Wellbutrin XL, finally, about the beginning of October.  Prior to that I was attempting to wean off the Zoloft and was down to such a minute amount and starting to feel this ugliness inside me and extremely short tempered.  This is when I went onto the Wellbutrin XL 150 mgs and started to feel a bit better.  I increased it again last week by 75 mgs.  The short temperedness has gone away. The only plus side is that I lost some weight about 3 weeks into the process of weaning off the Zoloft and going onto the Wellbutrin XL.  I am aware that I am finally experiencing some feelings which has been an issue for me for years due to them being blunted.  I feel like I’m in a catch 22 right now. Go back on a different AD then possibly weight goes on with that and my feelings get blunted or stay on the Wellbutrin XL and either I continue to feel this ugliness or maybe given time things will change since the short-temperedness did go away. I am also taking Clonazepam 1mg twice daily and Inderal, as needed. Many different issues going on in my life right now – good things, stressful things and issues I have no control over. Any insight from anyone on Wellbutrin XL?  Or any thoughts from anyone…  I do have a doctor’s appointment scheduled for Tuesday if my daughter is able to take me since this is out of my safe driving zone. smiles, Elise — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Question:

stupid stupid isp which has been sold and bought by so many companies it is now something like SBC yahOO prOdigy flash stupid stupid stupid dot com dot net dot dot dot… :p—– every new sale means the service gets worse, the subscriber base gets huger, and the download time is longer. and we gots an old slow modem so we are at the back of the dl line anyway. now it is deleting messages from the ng after only two days even tho my preferences have always been set for keeping messages for a couple months which is longer than they actually ever last but at least i had time to pretend i was gonna read more than i did. now they just go poof and i have to unsubscribe and resubscribe to the ng in order to pick up older posts. i don’t even bother to change isp’s cause i see this isp selling stuff going on all over the place and i have no reason to believe that wherever i might take my business won’t suddenly become AOsmell while we’re sleeping and at least i know i hate this isp. i loved it when it was just the flash company. what a great name and it was a good service and all. (thanks to linda of 3creus for the recommendation way back when) so just kvetching and being hopeless cause that is how i am feeling tonite and maybe it’s better to moan about the stupid isp instead of the more ugly hopelessness that is climbing inside of us. goodnight and hello, betsy — You think you are innocent if you say, ‘I love this woman and I want to act in accordance with my love,’ but you are beginning the revolution… You will be driven back: to claim the right to a human act is to attack the forces responsible for all the misery in the world.  - Paul Nizan

Response:

grrrrrrr. sounds really frustrating. ~  sorry that you’re feeling so hopeless. hope you feel better soon.   e – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – stupid stupid isp which has been sold and bought by so many companies it is now something like SBC yahOO prOdigy flash stupid stupid stupid dot com dot net dot dot dot… :p—– every new sale means the service gets worse, the subscriber base gets huger, and the download time is longer. and we gots an old slow modem so we are at the back of the dl line anyway. now it is deleting messages from the ng after only two days even tho my preferences have always been set for keeping messages for a couple months which is longer than they actually ever last but at least i had time to pretend i was gonna read more than i did. now they just go poof and i have to unsubscribe and resubscribe to the ng in order to pick up older posts. i don’t even bother to change isp’s cause i see this isp selling stuff going on all over the place and i have no reason to believe that wherever i might take my business won’t suddenly become AOsmell while we’re sleeping and at least i know i hate this isp. i loved it when it was just the flash company. what a great name and it was a good service and all. (thanks to linda of 3creus for the recommendation way back when) so just kvetching and being hopeless cause that is how i am feeling tonite and maybe it’s better to moan about the stupid isp instead of the more ugly hopelessness that is climbing inside of us. goodnight and hello, betsy — You think you are innocent if you say, ‘I love this woman and I want to act in accordance with my love,’ but you are beginning the revolution… You will be driven back: to claim the right to a human act is to attack the forces responsible for all the misery in the world.  - Paul Nizan

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – stupid stupid isp which has been sold and bought by so many companies it is now something like SBC yahOO prOdigy flash stupid stupid stupid dot com dot net dot dot dot… :p—– every new sale means the service gets worse, the subscriber base gets huger, and the download time is longer. and we gots an old slow modem so we are at the back of the dl line anyway. now it is deleting messages from the ng after only two days even tho my preferences have always been set for keeping messages for a couple months which is longer than they actually ever last but at least i had time to pretend i was gonna read more than i did. now they just go poof and i have to unsubscribe and resubscribe to the ng in order to pick up older posts. i don’t even bother to change isp’s cause i see this isp selling stuff going on all over the place and i have no reason to believe that wherever i might take my business won’t suddenly become AOsmell while we’re sleeping and at least i know i hate this isp. i loved it when it was just the flash company. what a great name and it was a good service and all. (thanks to linda of 3creus for the recommendation way back when)

I have increased in number eh….?  *grins* I’m just sorry they sold out.  So many good companies go that way and become crummy larger companies and innovation and good service&products become stagnation&bloatware.  Look what happened to companies like Bungie after microsnot bought them out.    I wish I could tell you of a local isp in your area like I could here or when I lived in NH.  Those were better and a much smaller user base and different phone lines or they use different switching stations than the biggies do.  There must be something where you are but I don’t know how to find them from here.  The numbers they use to connect is key though.  If you can find one that doesn’t use the same ones as AOL, earthlink and whoever else is big nowadays.  I noticed my local isp was using the same numbers to connect as earthlink was when I had that, so I dumped them and got a different one with three sets of numbers from three providers. I’ll paste in some urls to check maybe if you still are up to it. http://www.ispfinder.com/ http://thelist.internet.com/ if you can swing DSL: http://www.dslreports.com/ so just kvetching and being hopeless cause that is how i am feeling tonite and maybe it’s better to moan about the stupid isp instead of the more ugly hopelessness that is climbing inside of us. goodnight and hello, betsy

I hope that hopelessness climbs right on out of there.  I have to keep shining the searchlite into the darker recesses from time to time to make sure they aren’t hiding anywhere too.  I can’t say the effexor is helping that though.  I think I’ll be changing sometime to something else or not at all.  maybe we can keep shining the lite at each other sometimes.   take care betsy linda — I just wish I had put in a door when I built my wall.

Response:

boo.com has been recommended to me by several people.  it is local and apparently small, careful, and resistant to the biggies and their buying, re-morgaging games. trill hey, linda, howya doin?  We don’t hear much from you, lately.  But, we think of you, fondly, from time to time.     still trill

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – stupid stupid isp which has been sold and bought by so many companies it is now something like SBC yahOO prOdigy flash stupid stupid stupid dot com dot net dot dot dot… :p—– every new sale means the service gets worse, the subscriber base gets huger, and the download time is longer. and we gots an old slow modem so we are at the back of the dl line anyway. now it is deleting messages from the ng after only two days even tho my preferences have always been set for keeping messages for a couple months which is longer than they actually ever last but at least i had time to pretend i was gonna read more than i did. now they just go poof and i have to unsubscribe and resubscribe to the ng in order to pick up older posts. i don’t even bother to change isp’s cause i see this isp selling stuff going on all over the place and i have no reason to believe that wherever i might take my business won’t suddenly become AOsmell while we’re sleeping and at least i know i hate this isp. i loved it when it was just the flash company. what a great name and it was a good service and all. (thanks to linda of 3creus for the recommendation way back when) I have increased in number eh….?  *grins* I’m just sorry they sold out.  So many good companies go that way and become crummy larger companies and innovation and good service&products become stagnation&bloatware.  Look what happened to companies like Bungie after microsnot bought them out.  I wish I could tell you of a local isp in your area like I could here or when I lived in NH.  Those were better and a much smaller user base and different phone lines or they use different switching stations than the biggies do.  There must be something where you are but I don’t know how to find them from here.  The numbers they use to connect is key though.  If you can find one that doesn’t use the same ones as AOL, earthlink and whoever else is big nowadays.  I noticed my local isp was using the same numbers to connect as earthlink was when I had that, so I dumped them and got a different one with three sets of numbers from three providers. I’ll paste in some urls to check maybe if you still are up to it. http://www.ispfinder.com/ http://thelist.internet.com/ if you can swing DSL: http://www.dslreports.com/ so just kvetching and being hopeless cause that is how i am feeling tonite and maybe it’s better to moan about the stupid isp instead of the more ugly hopelessness that is climbing inside of us. goodnight and hello, betsy I hope that hopelessness climbs right on out of there.  I have to keep shining the searchlite into the darker recesses from time to time to make sure they aren’t hiding anywhere too.  I can’t say the effexor is helping that though.  I think I’ll be changing sometime to something else or not at all.  maybe we can keep shining the lite at each other sometimes. take care betsy linda — I just wish I had put in a door when I built my wall.

Response:

p.s.  maybe it is boo.net?  I can’t remember trill

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – boo.com has been recommended to me by several people.  it is local and apparently small, careful, and resistant to the biggies and their buying, re-morgaging games. trill hey, linda, howya doin?  We don’t hear much from you, lately.  But, we think of you, fondly, from time to time.     still trill stupid stupid isp which has been sold and bought by so many companies it is now something like SBC yahOO prOdigy flash stupid stupid stupid dot com dot net dot dot dot… :p—– every new sale means the service gets worse, the subscriber base gets huger, and the download time is longer. and we gots an old slow modem so we are at the back of the dl line anyway. now it is deleting messages from the ng after only two days even tho my preferences have always been set for keeping messages for a couple months which is longer than they actually ever last but at least i had time to pretend i was gonna read more than i did. now they just go poof and i have to unsubscribe and resubscribe to the ng in order to pick up older posts. i don’t even bother to change isp’s cause i see this isp selling stuff going on all over the place and i have no reason to believe that wherever i might take my business won’t suddenly become AOsmell while we’re sleeping and at least i know i hate this isp. i loved it when it was just the flash company. what a great name and it was a good service and all. (thanks to linda of 3creus for the recommendation way back when) I have increased in number eh….?  *grins* I’m just sorry they sold out.  So many good companies go that way and become crummy larger companies and innovation and good service&products become stagnation&bloatware.  Look what happened to companies like Bungie after microsnot bought them out.  I wish I could tell you of a local isp in your area like I could here or when I lived in NH.  Those were better and a much smaller user base and different phone lines or they use different switching stations than the biggies do.  There must be something where you are but I don’t know how to find them from here.  The numbers they use to connect is key though.  If you can find one that doesn’t use the same ones as AOL, earthlink and whoever else is big nowadays.  I noticed my local isp was using the same numbers to connect as earthlink was when I had that, so I dumped them and got a different one with three sets of numbers from three providers. I’ll paste in some urls to check maybe if you still are up to it. http://www.ispfinder.com/ http://thelist.internet.com/ if you can swing DSL: http://www.dslreports.com/ so just kvetching and being hopeless cause that is how i am feeling tonite and maybe it’s better to moan about the stupid isp instead of the more ugly hopelessness that is climbing inside of us. goodnight and hello, betsy I hope that hopelessness climbs right on out of there.  I have to keep shining the searchlite into the darker recesses from time to time to make sure they aren’t hiding anywhere too.  I can’t say the effexor is helping that though.  I think I’ll be changing sometime to something else or not at all.  maybe we can keep shining the lite at each other sometimes. take care betsy linda — I just wish I had put in a door when I built my wall.

Response:

boo.com has been recommended to me by several people.  it is local and apparently small, careful, and resistant to the biggies and their buying, re-morgaging games. trill hey, linda, howya doin?  We don’t hear much from you, lately.  But, we think of you, fondly, from time to time.     still trill

hi trill, I’m doing ok, thanks.  Hope all is well with you also.  I post very little when I’m limited on time or energy.  doesn’t mean I don’t think often of my friends all over usenet.  I try to catch up when I can but lately, between effexor side effects and worries, it’s been sporatic at best.  I’m not a moderator anymore on asarm but you’ll probably see me there more often just because I’m used to it and it’s easy to keep up with.  asd get’s a lot more posts and I get overwhelmed easy.  Jill’s degree (suggestion…grin) is followed more closely here.  *smirk* ducks flying rainbow jello.   I’ve always been one to posts a whole sh*tload and then go quiet for a while.  that’s just me. FWIW.   linda — I just wish I had put in a door when I built my wall.

Response:

Hi linda,

<snip I’m between and below hi trill, I’m doing ok, thanks.  Hope all is well with you also.  I post very little when I’m limited on time or energy.

I get that.  Like I’ve vanished from time to time, especially recently during my move. doesn’t mean I don’t think often of my friends all over usenet.

Wow.  I could never go all over usenet.  I’m glad you’ve got friends in so many places. I try to catch up when I can but lately, between effexor side effects and worries, it’s been sporatic at best.

    Having just come off of my first and so far only round with any antidepressant, I’m still pretty much of the mindset that the "side" effects outweigh the "intended" or hoped-for effects.  Though I experienced the intended ones for a hot second, the negative ones lasted much longer and grew in number and intensity rather than diminishing as I was promised by the mh pros.  Other friends of mine have told me that they do not accept the theory that the "side" effects stop.  Rather, someone put it, one adjust hirself to the side effects by changing diet and sleeping habits to accomodate them.     I don’t know anything for sure, except that after awhile the intended effects stopped for me and I was only left with exhaustion, increased numbers and intensity of migraines, and virtually destroyed appetite.  As for the famous l*b*do effects, well, I don’t even consider those worth mentioning.  I went into the game not caring what became of mine.  It seems cumbersome and irritating when it is around, anyway.     Withdrawal was extremely intense for me, convincing me that the concept of this class of drugs not being addictive is a semantics game and rhetorical manipulation design by the big pharm as a marketing campaign.  In fact, while researching the withdrawal symptoms of coming offa c*lxa, I learned that the reason that drug became so popular so quickly is that it was way more heavily marketed by the big pharm than any other a-d ever before, the line being that it is the most specific ssri, having little to no effect on other neurotransmitters than seratonin, and therefore having the least amt of side effects.  But, when it all came out in the wash of mass distribution and use, it turned out to have pretty much the same side effects at the same rate as all the other SSRIs.  So…     So, good luck.  I hope effexor works well for you with little disturbance.  I’m not a moderator anymore on asarm but you’ll probably see me there more often just because I’m used to it and it’s easy to keep up with.

oh well.  The idea of trying to join another ng for any reason in the whole wide world terrifies me.  You have no idea, but it took mos. of encouragement and gentle proddings by my t and a friend before I even made an attempt to find asd.  Then it took mos of lurking before I even made an attempt to figure out how to get to post here with relative anonymity.     While I sometimes go overboard with posting here, I don’t think anyone will every find me posting at any other ng. Anyway, I’m glad to see you when I do.  asd get’s a lot more posts and I get overwhelmed easy.

    That happens to me, too.  You have no idea how much more of this ng I mark as read without that being the case than I actually read.  No offense to anyone.  It is _mostly_ indiscriminate and based only on MY time and mood, but it is mostly not read.  Therefore, besides getting overwhelmed, I also often get confused.     For instance:  Where’s Beauty and J/c and mags and halina and dyenths, to name a few whom I haven’t seen around for a bit, whom I was used to seeing lots of at different times.  Perhaps they each gave some sort of notice that I missed.  Oh well.  Guess I blew it.  Jill’s degree (suggestion…grin) is followed more closely here.  *smirk*

Sorry.  Sometimes I get carried away.  It’s true.  Soemtimes reading and writing here are my great dissociative escape from the difficulties of my life.     Lately I’ve encountered mnay difficulties in my life. ducks flying rainbow jello.

I like the double entendre of your grammar just above.  I see ducks soaring through rainbow jello.  I see ducks made of rainbow jello.  I see ducks launching rainbow jello offa catapaults and rocket pads.  And I see you ducking the rainbow jello that flies. I’ve always been one to posts a whole sh*tload and then go quiet for a while.  that’s just me. FWIW.

I noticed.  Okay by me. trill – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – linda — I just wish I had put in a door when I built my wall.

Response:

Hey trill We’s here….. Work and gran’pa-ing has been taking their toll on us.. We’s not suffering. mind you(but that’s to be explained in our response to 14’s question)  (waves 14) but we have been enduring quite a bit of pain and discomfort Also been dealing one gawd awful *cold*   sniffle< We got a few responses on the go(but jeese a decent post takes us at least 2 hrs sitting at the keyboard)  moan< I think Beauty would be watching her SO doing his folk dancing in Croatia right about now… mags and the others ,,,I don’t know! We.ve been having trouble picking up mags posts… Been seeing responses to hir but sometimes her post doesn’t show up for a week… been really confusing!! You and me both find usenet intimidating  brrr I wouldn’t even think of venturing around outside of asd… I think you are very brave Linda  waves< betsy…. grrr sorry to hear about your isp… we’re dealing with the same thing up here… all of the dial-ups have been bought out by the corporate telephone monopoly… grrr And they want everybody to switch to DSL It’s even cheaper than dial-up… but you need a pentium to run it… grrr Peter.. Hope to get an email out to you soon.. If not in time .. Hope you enjoy your Canada Day long weekend! Now hope I can finish that other post… whew J/c.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi linda, <snip I’m between and below hi trill, I’m doing ok, thanks.  Hope all is well with you also.  I post very little when I’m limited on time or energy. I get that.  Like I’ve vanished from time to time, especially recently during my move. doesn’t mean I don’t think often of my friends all over usenet. Wow.  I could never go all over usenet.  I’m glad you’ve got friends in so many places. I try to catch up when I can but lately, between effexor side effects and worries, it’s been sporatic at best.     Having just come off of my first and so far only round with any antidepressant, I’m still pretty much of the mindset that the "side" effects outweigh the "intended" or hoped-for effects.  Though I experienced the intended ones for a hot second, the negative ones lasted much longer and grew in number and intensity rather than diminishing as I was promised by the mh pros.  Other friends of mine have told me that they do not accept the theory that the "side" effects stop.  Rather, someone put it, one adjust hirself to the side effects by changing diet and sleeping habits to accomodate them.     I don’t know anything for sure, except that after awhile the intended effects stopped for me and I was only left with exhaustion, increased numbers and intensity of migraines, and virtually destroyed appetite.  As for the famous l*b*do effects, well, I don’t even consider those worth mentioning.  I went into the game not caring what became of mine.  It seems cumbersome and irritating when it is around, anyway.     Withdrawal was extremely intense for me, convincing me that the concept of this class of drugs not being addictive is a semantics game and rhetorical manipulation design by the big pharm as a marketing campaign. In fact, while researching the withdrawal symptoms of coming offa c*lxa, I learned that the reason that drug became so popular so quickly is that it was way more heavily marketed by the big pharm than any other a-d ever before, the line being that it is the most specific ssri, having little to no effect on other neurotransmitters than seratonin, and therefore having the least amt of side effects.  But, when it all came out in the wash of mass distribution and use, it turned out to have pretty much the same side effects at the same rate as all the other SSRIs.  So…     So, good luck.  I hope effexor works well for you with little disturbance.  I’m not a moderator anymore on asarm but you’ll probably see me there more often just because I’m used to it and it’s easy to keep up with. oh well.  The idea of trying to join another ng for any reason in the whole wide world terrifies me.  You have no idea, but it took mos. of encouragement and gentle proddings by my t and a friend before I even made an attempt to find asd.  Then it took mos of lurking before I even made an attempt to figure out how to get to post here with relative anonymity.     While I sometimes go overboard with posting here, I don’t think anyone will every find me posting at any other ng. Anyway, I’m glad to see you when I do.  asd get’s a lot more posts and I get overwhelmed easy.     That happens to me, too.  You have no idea how much more of this ng I mark as read without that being the case than I actually read.  No offense to anyone.  It is _mostly_ indiscriminate and based only on MY time and mood, but it is mostly not read.  Therefore, besides getting overwhelmed, I also often get confused.     For instance:  Where’s Beauty and J/c and mags and halina and dyenths, to name a few whom I haven’t seen around for a bit, whom I was used to seeing lots of at different times.  Perhaps they each gave some sort of notice that I missed.  Oh well.  Guess I blew it.  Jill’s degree (suggestion…grin) is followed more closely here.  *smirk* Sorry.  Sometimes I get carried away.  It’s true.  Soemtimes reading and writing here are my great dissociative escape from the difficulties of my life.     Lately I’ve encountered mnay difficulties in my life. ducks flying rainbow jello. I like the double entendre of your grammar just above.  I see ducks soaring through rainbow jello.  I see ducks made of rainbow jello.  I see ducks launching rainbow jello offa catapaults and rocket pads.  And I see you ducking the rainbow jello that flies. I’ve always been one to posts a whole sh*tload and then go quiet for a while.  that’s just me. FWIW. I noticed.  Okay by me. trill linda — I just wish I had put in a door when I built my wall.

Response:

Hi trill and J/c, Hey trill We’s here….. Work and gran’pa-ing has been taking their toll on us.. We’s not suffering. mind you(but that’s to be explained in our response to 14’s question)  (waves 14) but we have been enduring quite a bit of pain and discomfort Also been dealing one gawd awful *cold*   sniffle<

hope your cold is doing a bit better.  zinc and vit C is my prescription and lots of clear liquids.  :)) most grand’pa’s like the duties all too well, in my experience.  ;-)  I wasn’t real crazy about my inlaws but there were times when I wished someone was around to help me.  I was in the service and then we moved up to NH and again, no foo around on either side, again.  I’m used to it now and the "little" one is 20 and at least 5′10 and still growing.   We got a few responses on the go(but jeese a decent post takes us at least 2 hrs sitting at the keyboard)  moan< I think Beauty would be watching her SO doing his folk dancing in Croatia right about now… mags and the others ,,,I don’t know! We.ve been having trouble picking up mags posts… Been seeing responses to hir but sometimes her post doesn’t show up for a week… been really confusing!! You and me both find usenet intimidating  brrr I wouldn’t even think of venturing around outside of asd… I think you are very brave Linda  waves<

<waves  nice to hear from ya.  I’ve started out on asarm and branched out.   getting 2-c-reus now… I’m not brave at all though, J/c.  I have to clarify that.  Someone on asarm said I was too and I have to clear up that misconception.  I think if someone is brave, they do something [positive] knowing the consequences may be negative and they do it anyway.  I often do things without even caring enough to check into what may happen and there is a "what the h*ll" attached to it.  Kind of a resigned feeling of "it’s only me anyway" thing behind it.   I know that isn’t the best way to think but we’re working on that one…still. As far as posting on various groups goes…well…that depends on what someone has to loose.  If a person has others to watch out for and may suffer a great deal if they were located…the consequences become very high.  For me, there is no real consequences that I give a damn about.  My foo is all drunk, drugged out, d*ad or elsewhere and I doubt they’d even bother to find out where I wound up.  They never did when I was right there.   Other perps are either d*ad or some stranger. I am unemployed so there’s no boss to search for me and I guess I have a pretty lousy attitude about bosses too.   so I guess I rambled on too much about a simple polite statement.  sorry. I don’t like to let myself take credit for something I don’t deserve. I hope everyone who’s down right now with some flu or something else, is feeling  a little better. betsy…. grrr sorry to hear about your isp… we’re dealing with the same thing up here… all of the dial-ups have been bought out by the corporate telephone monopoly… grrr And they want everybody to switch to DSL It’s even cheaper than dial-up… but you need a pentium to run it… grrr

I thought you had gotten a newer one.  you were using the one you built before.  Not sure why I thought that.   I wonder how that translates into Mac requirements?  power pc 604 or G-3? not sure what you have betsy.   For us, cable was do-able since we paid for it anyway and we got in on a starter deal for new hookups when the finished installing the lines out here.   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Peter.. Hope to get an email out to you soon.. If not in time .. Hope you enjoy your Canada Day long weekend! Now hope I can finish that other post… whew J/c. Hi linda, <snip I’m between and below hi trill, I’m doing ok, thanks.  Hope all is well with you also.  I post very little when I’m limited on time or energy. I get that.  Like I’ve vanished from time to time, especially recently during my move. doesn’t mean I don’t think often of my friends all over usenet. Wow.  I could never go all over usenet.  I’m glad you’ve got friends in so many places. I try to catch up when I can but lately, between effexor side effects and worries, it’s been sporatic at best.     Having just come off of my first and so far only round with any antidepressant, I’m still pretty much of the mindset that the "side" effects outweigh the "intended" or hoped-for effects.  Though I experienced the intended ones for a hot second, the negative ones lasted much longer and grew in number and intensity rather than diminishing as I was promised by the mh pros.  Other friends of mine have told me that they do not accept the theory that the "side" effects stop.  Rather, someone put it, one adjust hirself to the side effects by changing diet and sleeping habits to accomodate them.     I don’t know anything for sure, except that after awhile the intended effects stopped for me and I was only left with exhaustion, increased numbers and intensity of migraines, and virtually destroyed appetite.  As for the famous l*b*do effects, well, I don’t even consider those worth mentioning.  I went into the game not caring what became of mine.  It seems cumbersome and irritating when it is around, anyway.     Withdrawal was extremely intense for me, convincing me that the concept of this class of drugs not being addictive is a semantics game and rhetorical manipulation design by the big pharm as a marketing campaign. In fact, while researching the withdrawal symptoms of coming offa c*lxa, I learned that the reason that drug became so popular so quickly is that it was way more heavily marketed by the big pharm than any other a-d ever before, the line being that it is the most specific ssri, having little to no effect on other neurotransmitters than seratonin, and therefore having the least amt of side effects.  But, when it all came out in the wash of mass distribution and use, it turned out to have pretty much the same side effects at the same rate as all the other SSRIs.  So…     So, good luck.  I hope effexor works well for you with little disturbance.

I think I’m coming to a similar conclusion now.  I’ve been on just about all of them and my response is one of either more depressed than before or it does nothing after an intital upswing.  Like I get aclimated to it or something.  I think most my depression is situational and until that improves, then that will also…eventually.  I haven’t given up on finding a T that can help me.  I just know now that the VA isn’t going to help me find one.  Maybe I can find one later if my SSI goes thru or my VA claim for stuff that happened while in the navy.  then I’ll start looking around.  I wanted to give this med a chance since this is a new PDoc (to me) and he’s supposed to be real helpful for us getting assistance.  He is less likely to play the insurance game.  But they still like their medications.  He’s seen my chart though and knows all the meds I’ve already been on.   I’m not a moderator anymore on asarm but you’ll probably see me there more often just because I’m used to it and it’s easy to keep up with. oh well.  The idea of trying to join another ng for any reason in the whole wide world terrifies me.  You have no idea, but it took mos. of encouragement and gentle proddings by my t and a friend before I even made an attempt to find asd.  Then it took mos of lurking before I even made an attempt to figure out how to get to post here with relative anonymity.     While I sometimes go overboard with posting here, I don’t think anyone will every find me posting at any other ng. Anyway, I’m glad to see you when I do.

well, that’s cool too.  sometimes I like it here better.  It depends, like   you say, on what I am needing at the time.  Sometimes one is just not enough and the posts seem too…um…nice.  sometimes I need to talk about things that aren’t so nice and politically correct.  or maybe get feedback from some others who may tell me something I may not want to hear but need to hear.  if that makes any sense.   Other times, that is just about all I can handle and I can’t do confrontations much at all anytime.    asd get’s a lot more posts and I get overwhelmed easy.     That happens to me, too.  You have no idea how much more of this ng I mark as read without that being the case than I actually read.  No offense to anyone.  It is _mostly_ indiscriminate and based only on MY time and mood, but it is mostly not read.  Therefore, besides getting overwhelmed,

yeah, I do that too.  not because I am trying to exclude anyone but more like I just can’t "split" my mind into that many area’s at once.  I tend to be more mono.   I also often get confused.     For instance:  Where’s Beauty and J/c and mags and halina and dyenths, to name a few whom I haven’t seen around for a bit, whom I was used to seeing lots of at different times.  Perhaps they each gave some sort of notice that I missed.  Oh well.  Guess I blew it.  Jill’s degree (suggestion…grin) is followed more closely here.  *smirk* Sorry.  Sometimes I get carried away.  It’s true.  Soemtimes reading and writing here are my great dissociative escape from the difficulties of my life.     Lately I’ve encountered mnay difficulties in my life.

why are you … read more »

Response:

Hey linda Also been dealing one gawd awful *cold*   sniffle< hope your cold is doing a bit better.  zinc and vit C is my prescription and lots of clear liquids.  :))

Yes thanx….. thanx also for indirectly prompting us to re-evaluate our fruit consumption!!  wink< Yes.. we did go and get a couple of orangesand shared some of the granddaughter’s watermelon! I think it helped!! most grand’pa’s like the duties all too well, in my experience.  ;-)

Yup.. Sadly though an unfortunate situation has arisen at her home, and it appears that grandpa’ing is going to be a very full time experience this summer!!!! We do have gr*ve concerns!<<<

 I wasn’t real crazy about my inlaws but there were times when I wished someone was around to help me.  I was in the service and then we moved up to NH and again, no foo around on either side, again.

Sorry linda!!  I know how that is!!!   ( We did it alone too! Not something I could do to my kid though! If she needs me I am there! I’m used to it now and the "little" one is 20 and at least 5′10 and still growing.

Very Big Grin How is he getting along in the new surroundings? <snip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think you are very brave Linda  waves< <waves  nice to hear from ya.  I’ve started out on asarm and branched out. getting 2-c-reus now… I’m not brave at all though, J/c.  I have to clarify that.  Someone on asarm said I was too and I have to clear up that misconception.  I think if someone is brave, they do something [positive] knowing the consequences may be negative and they do it anyway.  I often do things without even caring enough to check into what may happen and there is a "what the h*ll" attached to it.  Kind of a resigned feeling of "it’s only me anyway" thing behind it. I know that isn’t the best way to think but we’re working on that one…still.

OK  we can accept that you don’t feel that this is bravery! ) but…but…. to us.. the thought of it is real sceery! As far as posting on various groups goes…well…that depends on what someone has to loose.  If a person has others to watch out for and may suffer a great deal if they were located…the consequences become very high.  For me, there is no real consequences that I give a damn about.  My foo is all drunk, drugged out, d*ad or elsewhere and I doubt they’d even bother to find out where I wound up.  They never did when I was right there. Other perps are either d*ad or some stranger. I am unemployed so there’s no boss to search for me and I guess I have a pretty lousy attitude about bosses too. so I guess I rambled on too much about a simple polite statement.  sorry. I don’t like to let myself take credit for something I don’t deserve.

Will you let youself take credit for "a very good rant"! ;o) Sorry that you had to have so many crappy people in your life linda!  :o( <snip I thought you had gotten a newer one.  you were using the one you built before.  Not sure why I thought that. I wonder how that translates into Mac requirements?  power pc 604 or G-3? not sure what you have betsy. For us, cable was do-able since we paid for it anyway and we got in on a starter deal for new hookups when the finished installing the lines out here.

Oh… we’ve upgraded pretty much everything except the Y2K handicapped 486 motherboard.. groan.. Looks like it will be quite a while before that happens! Good to hear from you linda! How’s the weather down there? Warm thoughts J/c

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey linda Hi J/c Also been dealing one gawd awful *cold*   sniffle< hope your cold is doing a bit better.  zinc and vit C is my prescription and lots of clear liquids.  :)) Yes thanx….. thanx also for indirectly prompting us to re-evaluate our fruit consumption!!  wink< Yes.. we did go and get a couple of orangesand shared some of the granddaughter’s watermelon! I think it helped!!

Good!  Watermelon has more Vit. C than oranges.  I found that tidbit out in nursing school.  it was a trick question that we all got wrong. most grand’pa’s like the duties all too well, in my experience.  ;-) Yup.. Sadly though an unfortunate situation has arisen at her home, and it appears that grandpa’ing is going to be a very full time experience this summer!!!!

Sorry to hear that her situation is like that.  I know you’ll be the best gramps though.   It can get wearing on you though.  I hope you can take some time for you too.  I know what it feels like to feel overwhelmed and guilty about needing time for myself in order to be more understanding when I’m around others. i wasn’t real crazy about my inlaws but there were times when I wished someone was around to help me.  I was in the service and then we moved up to NH and again, no foo around on either side, again. Sorry linda!!  I know how that is!!!   ( We did it alone too! Not something I could do to my kid though! If she needs me I am there!

same here.  I just needed space from the inlaws and my foo.  my son is a whole different ballgame.  I do wish I could still get some respite though but it isn’t covered in this state evidently.  my so can’t deal with him very much at all.  no patience nor the desire to try to understand it seems sometimes.  that is disturbing me a great deal right now. I’m used to it now and the "little" one is 20 and at least 5′10 and still growing. Very Big Grin How is he getting along in the new surroundings?

he stays in his room most the time except for appointments, meals and the occasional excusion to the mall or fireworks.  stuff like that.  He just can’t wait to get back to his computer, though and is very sullen and unsociable.  I’m hoping to find a youth group he’d consider trying.  He was in one in NH (ch*rch) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think you are very brave Linda  waves< <waves  nice to hear from ya.  I’ve started out on asarm and branched out. getting 2-c-reus now… I’m not brave at all though, J/c.  I have to clarify that.  Someone on asarm said I was too and I have to clear up that misconception.  I think if someone is brave, they do something [positive] knowing the consequences may be negative and they do it anyway.  I often do things without even caring enough to check into what may happen and there is a "what the h*ll" attached to it.  Kind of a resigned feeling of "it’s only me anyway" thing behind it. I know that isn’t the best way to think but we’re working on that one…still. OK  we can accept that you don’t feel that this is bravery! ) but…but…. to us.. the thought of it is real sceery!

ok, I can accept that may be how it’s perceived by others.  thanks for the compliment.  I just hope I didn’t make a mistake. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As far as posting on various groups goes…well…that depends on what someone has to loose.  If a person has others to watch out for and may suffer a great deal if they were located…the consequences become very high.  For me, there is no real consequences that I give a damn about.  My foo is all drunk, drugged out, d*ad or elsewhere and I doubt they’d even bother to find out where I wound up.  They never did when I was right there. Other perps are either d*ad or some stranger. I am unemployed so there’s no boss to search for me and I guess I have a pretty lousy attitude about bosses too. so I guess I rambled on too much about a simple polite statement.  sorry. I don’t like to let myself take credit for something I don’t deserve. Will you let youself take credit for "a very good rant"! ;o) Sorry that you had to have so many crappy people in your life linda!  :o(

grins, ok, I guess I can do that.  thanks J/c. there are lots of good people online and off to make up for the few from before. I thought you had gotten a newer one.  you were using the one you built before.  Not sure why I thought that. I wonder how that translates into Mac requirements?  power pc 604 or G-3? not sure what you have betsy. For us, cable was do-able since we paid for it anyway and we got in on a starter deal for new hookups when the finished installing the lines out here. Oh… we’ve upgraded pretty much everything except the Y2K handicapped 486 motherboard.. groan.. Looks like it will be quite a while before that happens!

I wish I could send you something.  Keep watching the papers and flyers.  we see used pc’s and parts fairly cheap all the time in the little local "nickel" paper. (all want ads) Good to hear from you linda! How’s the weather down there? Warm thoughts J/c

the weather is unbearably hot here.  and dry.  fire alerts all over.   it’s going to be around 110 next week  ick. enjoy your cool weather. linda — –~~There’s a difference between KNOWING the path…and WALKING the path~~

Response:

Question:

Have you tried effexor instead of prozac, although it’s a prescription drug? According to rxlist.com… "Preclinical studies have shown that venlafaxine [effexor] and its active metabolite, O-desmethylvenlafaxine (ODV), are potent inhibitors of neuronal serotonin and norepinephrine reuptake and weak inhibitors of dopamine reuptake"

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve tried lots of antidepressants, and about the only one I can tolerate is Prozac.  However, it’s not very effective. I’ve tried adding lithium and thyroxine, neither of which helped much. Lately there’s been talk here about noradrenergic and dopaminergic effects of antidepressants.  Prozac only works on the serotonin receptors.  Is there any other effective over the counter or other medications that would augment Prozac, that anyone can think of?

Response:

Thanks AMM and CyberMistress. Yes I tried Effexor – and may try it again – but it knocked me out too much for me to know what it was doing to my mood. I’ll try the 100mg of B6 and other B vitamins. Does anyone find that Omega-3 oil really helps with their mood?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – John as you know I been suffering depression pretty bad since I stopped the Paxil and none of the AD’s I tried in the year and 4 months since did good things upon trying.. so I been going without. Well, I been trying the vitamin, minerals fish oils  with mixed success…some alleviation of PMS symptoms but nothing for depression.. The thing is not enough alleviation of PMS  so I was whining to a friend who told me his wife used 100mg of B6  to counteract PMS… What did I have to lose… I increased it to 100mg and I shown a positive response…out of the fog I been in the entire time since I stopped the Paxil…greyness gone…  less irritable,  though more BLACK and WHITE thinking cause I am more sure of myself. Anyway, if the Prozac works fairly well, why not supplement with the OMEGA 3 and b complex vitamins…see if they help… I’ve tried lots of antidepressants, and about the only one I can tolerate is Prozac.  However, it’s not very effective. I’ve tried adding lithium and thyroxine, neither of which helped much. Lately there’s been talk here about noradrenergic and dopaminergic effects of antidepressants.  Prozac only works on the serotonin receptors.  Is there any other effective over the counter or other medications that would augment Prozac, that anyone can think of?

Response:

I’ve tried lots of antidepressants, and about the only one I can tolerate is Prozac.  However, it’s not very effective. I’ve tried adding lithium and thyroxine, neither of which helped much. Lately there’s been talk here about noradrenergic and dopaminergic effects of antidepressants.  Prozac only works on the serotonin receptors.  Is there any other effective over the counter or other medications that would augment Prozac, that anyone can think of?

Response:

 I’ve tried lots of antidepressants, and about the only one I can tolerate is Prozac.  However, it’s not very effective. I’ve tried adding lithium and thyroxine, neither of which helped much. Lately there’s been talk here about noradrenergic and dopaminergic effects of antidepressants.  Prozac only works on the serotonin receptors.  ARE there any other effective over the counter or other medications that would augment Prozac, that anyone can think of?

Response:

Question:

   I seriously think my pd doc. is nuts.I just came from seeing him and he told me starting today to up my zoloft from 50mgs to 100mgs.He said I was going too slow thats why I don’t feel better yet You can’t go too slow. Why do these docs act like they have a plane to catch? snipped Philip

A lot of them do have a plane to catch, Philip. To Zurich to visit their money!!!!      <no joke  :-( Ian

Response:

  I seriously think my pd doc. is nuts.

You are probably right, Randee. A lot of shrinks have their own shrinks!!  And you probably know that they have the highest suicide rate of any of the medical specialities (the stats for docs generally are also higher than the general population). I just came from seeing him and he told me starting today to up my zoloft from 50mgs to 100mgs.He said I was going too slow thats why I don’t feel better yet.I think i’m doing just fine and i’m going to stay at 50mgs for now and find a new doc.

generally, an increase from 50 to 100mg is easier than 0 to 50, but the real determining factor should be how you feel about increasing, not how your doc feels. I tried to tell him why I was weening slow and he told me there is no risk or side-effects by upping it so high.

Did you start rolling on the floor laughing?  I would have. So I asked him if he ever took an SSRI. He didn’t like that one bit..lol

ADs when taken by those without a problem seem to have very few effects beyond S.Es, so IMO all doctors should be required to take a short course of one. This would do wonders for their care of patients! At least they are calling my insurance company today and trying to get zoloft approved.That would be a huge help.I’m still in good spirits though.Not many side-effects on 50mgs. I’m hoping to be breathing better soon.                                        Randee

take care ian

Response:

   I seriously think my pd doc. is nuts.I just came from seeing him and he told me starting today to up my zoloft from 50mgs to 100mgs.He said I was going too slow thats why I don’t feel better yet

You can’t go too slow. Why do these docs act like they have a plane to catch? If you’re feeling ready to raise the Zoloft dose, raise it to 75 mgs first, there is no hurry and your own pace is the best pace. For most people 50 mgs won’t do the trick but if you feel OK there is no reason to do anything about it….. .I think i’m doing just fine and i’m going to stay at 50mgs for now and find a new doc. I tried to tell him why I was weening slow and he told me there is no risk or side-effects by upping it so high

Oh yeah…… .So I asked him if he ever took an SSRI. He didn’t like that one bit..lol At least they are calling my insurance company today and trying to get zoloft approved.That would be a huge help.I’m still in good spirits though.Not many side-effects on 50mgs. I’m hoping to be breathing better soon.

Well, so far so good. I admire you for standing up for yourself, it isn’t all that easy…                                         Randee

Philip

Response:

   I seriously think my pd doc. is nuts.I just came from seeing him and he told me starting today to up my zoloft from 50mgs to 100mgs.He said I was going too slow thats why I don’t feel better yet.I think i’m doing just fine and i’m going to stay at 50mgs for now and find a new doc. I tried to tell him why I was weening slow and he told me there is no risk or side-effects by upping it so high.So I asked him if he ever took an SSRI. He didn’t like that one bit..lol At least they are calling my insurance company today and trying to get zoloft approved.That would be a huge help.I’m still in good spirits though.Not many side-effects on 50mgs. I’m hoping to be breathing better soon.                                         Randee

Randee –   In no way am I questioning your personal descision on Zoloft…However, I thought I would share my experience with you…I was at 50 mg for 2 weeks…By then I had few side effects (like you)…However, only my depression seemed better…No effect on anxiety…My doc suggested upping to 100 mg…I said fine since I was having few side effects…Within 5 days my anxiety was markedly improved…I was very glad to have upped my dose…I did have renewed side effects, but these lasted only 2 days (really)…It seemed like going from 50-100 was much easier than 0-50…Anyway, like I said, it is your decision, I just wanted you to know about my experience as it might aid your decision one way or the other… Later and good luck, — Charles Phipps

Response:

   I seriously think my pd doc. is nuts.I just came from seeing him and he told me starting today to up my zoloft from 50mgs to 100mgs.He said I was going too slow thats why I don’t feel better yet.I think i’m doing just fine and i’m going to stay at 50mgs for now and find a new doc. I tried to tell him why I was weening slow and he told me there is no risk or side-effects by upping it so high.So I asked him if he ever took an SSRI. He didn’t like that one bit..lol At least they are calling my insurance company today and trying to get zoloft approved.That would be a huge help.I’m still in good spirits though.Not many side-effects on 50mgs. I’m hoping to be breathing better soon.                                         Randee

Response:

  I seriously think my pd doc. is nuts.I just came from seeing him and he told me starting today to up my zoloft from 50mgs to 100mgs.He said I was going too slow thats why I don’t feel better yet.I think i’m doing just fine and i’m going to stay at 50mgs for now and find a new doc. I tried to tell him why I was weening slow and he told me there is no risk or side-effects by upping it so high.So I asked him if he ever took an SSRI. He didn’t like that one bit..lol At least they are calling my insurance company today and trying to get zoloft approved.That would be a huge help.I’m still in good spirits though.Not many side-effects on 50mgs. I’m hoping to be breathing better soon.

Hi Randee, Your Pdoc is more than nuts, and I agree, time  for a new one. I am so glad that you stood up for yourself and defended your right to wean on Zoloft  your way, which is the right way. It makes me so angry when I hear doctors with attitudes like yours. I can only imagine how many people have been turned off to anti-depressants because they started at too high a dose, and couldn`t handle it and got off the med. Hang in there,  you will be feeling better soon. Take care!! Jackie

Response:

Question:

I’ve no idea about the relative pressures involved, but perhaps someone here could cast a bit of light? Maybe by studying old saxophonists we could make a guess about the long-term effects of CPAP without doing the experiment the slow way. Perhaps, but you have to be able to establish: 1. That damage to the lungs is occurring

This will be complicated by existing pulmonary disease, since existing disease is difficult to differentiate from barotrauma.

2. That said damage is by CPAP, and not by the apnea or   other possible causes.

This could most be deduced by pulmonary markers before and after use of CPAP. If you don’t know the complete and comprehensive state of your pulmonary health prior to CPAP use, then any pulmonary damage subsequent to CPAP use will be difficult to trace, er, Tracey.

3. That if CPAP damage does occur, it is does substantially   more damage than either other forms of (possibly ineffective)   treatments, or by leaving the apnea untreated.

This has got to be the most penetrating statement I have ever heard.  This is the epiphany.  Weighing the risks.  Therefore, weighing *all* the risks is better than only having some of the more palatable risks available for scrutiny.

For example, my CPAP setting is set at 9cm, but the negative pressure measured in my lungs without CPAP hovered around -28cm. You’d have to devise a study which could figure out which pressure was the problematic one— the high negative pressure before, or the low positive pressure after. Not sure if saxophone players would necessarily be a good study group either. They may have a great deal of negative pressure, rather than positive.

Although, barotrauma in device therapy can likely be found *most* during exhalation phases of respiration, when there is the most opposition of forces. Maybe a CPAP that could hit an A sharp?

Quite frankly, designing a good study is hard, and takes a great deal of expertise and background knowledge in the area– as I know, having just completed some research of my own, and watched it be picked apart by collegues. T Sconyers

It is easy for device manufacturers and even clinicians to poo poo barotrauma in device therapy, since it IS a slow process, and since there is no better treatment for sleep apnea available today (though the corporation does run the tenor of treatment). We hope it is such a slow process as to be inconsequential within a normal lifespan. But, a lifetime has not passed since the advent of the first CPAP (someone born then is now an older teenager). Cigarette packages must contain caveats about cancer, but medical ventilators do not have to mention barotrauma. Whodathunk Doug

Response:

In article <1998052201452400.VAA28…@ladder03.news.aol.com

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        polkano…@aol.com (PolkaNoble) wrote:

Saxophonists do get a lot of negative pressure, especially when they play out of tune.   We have a lot of other jokes about tubas, piccolos, and alto horns (among others) but positive pressure is used to blow ALL wind instruments except the harmonica which does use negative pressure for some of its notes. Not sure if saxophone players would necessarily be a good<BR study group either. They may have a great deal of negative<BR pressure, snip

Positive for the wind instrument, negative for the player, yes? My main point is that when you play an instrument, you are exhaling forcefully. When you are using CPAP, you are inhaling forcefully. May not be the same thing. Oh course, if you were to hook up a CPAP to a piccolo, then you may have an adequate study T Sconyers

Response:

Since these ideas are thrown around rather liberally . . . As I perceive it, "positive pressure" is any pressure exerted that is higher than atmospheric pressure.  "Negative pressure" is any pressure exerted that is lower than atmospheric pressure. If you blow through a straw, then this is positive pressure, and blowing a "dent" in the top of your coke shows that there is higher pressure than atmospheric pressure.  Your lungs are strong enough to overcome outside pressure, and can push air out the lungs into the outside air, which is positive pressure. Negative pressure is sucking through a straw.  Here, the expanding mouth or lungs make it so that atmospheric pressure pushes air into the mouth.  The mouth or lungs here generate negative pressure until the mouth or lungs are filled with outside air. Air will always go from the positive side to the negative side. Positive pressure will blow leaves off of a sidewalk; negative pressure will suck pennies into a vacuum cleaner. Technically, pressure is based upon number of air molecules per volume.  If the volume is increased (inhalation) then air density goes down, gets thinner, and this is negative pressure, allowing external air to fill the lungs.  If there is upper airway obstruction, then the lungs can still expand (try to expand), increasing the volume, creating a negative pressure, even though outside positive pressure will not be permitted to enter the lungs (until that almighty awakening to lighter sleep!). Therefore, inhalation, or any attempts at inhalation, generate negative pressure within the lungs. Exhalation, or any attempts at exhalation, generate positive pressure within the lungs. **************************************************

Response:

Doug, Your explaination of positive and negative pressure is exactly the same as I assumed in my posts, wordplay on psycological positive and negative pressure is a musician’s little joke.  Anyone playing out of tune would be subject to "negative pressure" from his peers. Maybe I didn’t read your post closely enough, or missed a post.  Clarify  a question if you will.  It seems to me that, given the structure of the laungs, the negative pressure exerted when an apneic attempts to breathe in would do far more damage than the same amount of positive pressure from a CPAP.  I can easily believe negative pressures of 25 to 35 cm H2O are generated by such an attempt. As you have pointed out, the treatment may have a downside, but it is far better than the disease. PolkaNoble (Max Tunnell)

Response:

In article <1998052514222500.KAA06…@ladder03.news.aol.com

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  polkano…@aol.com (PolkaNoble) wrote:

Doug, Your explaination of positive and negative pressure is exactly the same as I assumed in my posts, wordplay on psycological positive and negative pressure is a musician’s little joke.  Anyone playing out of tune would be subject to "negative pressure" from his peers.

In your posts, that pun did give me pause to grin.

Maybe I didn’t read your post closely enough, or missed a post.  Clarify  a question if you will.  It seems to me that, given the structure of the laungs, the negative pressure exerted when an apneic attempts to breathe in would do far more damage than the same amount of positive pressure from a CPAP.  I can easily believe negative pressures of 25 to 35 cm H2O are generated by such an attempt. As you have pointed out, the treatment may have a downside, but it is far better than the disease.

Inhalation does indeed cause negative pressure within the lungs, and this pressure remains negative until the inhalation is complete. Exhalation, on the other hand, involves a natural recoil of lung tissues, and generates a positive intrapulmonary pressure.  Exhalation does not use any muscles, unless ventilation is challenged.  Recoil of the lung occurs naturally from interstitial elastin fibers as well as the attraction of alveolar surfactant molecules to each other (surface tension of the alveolar spheres).  Within the thorax, a lung will collapse in exhalation until the pleural suction ceases the implosion, which leaves an alveolar pressure equal to that of the atmosphere.  Outside of the thorax, a lung will collapse until its air content is completely emptied.  Therefore, it is natural for a lung to collapse. Negative pressures found in inhalation keep the alveoli from "fully" inflating until inhalation is complete.  Even at peak inspiration found in resting-respiration the alveolar compliment is never fully inflated. Therefore, the negative pressure of inhalation against obstruction may actually prevent the alveoli from distending, which becomes more prominent upon *exhalation*. The unrelieved negative pressure of obstructed inhalation may make an alveolus more prone, actually, to "collapse", which is in fact its natural tendency.  An alveolus naturally wishes to collapse in microscopic convolutions owing to attractive forces of its surfactant (WOW!).  Intrapulmonary negative pressure would tend to suck an alveolus in rather than distend it out. Therefore, since of issue is *distension* of an alveolus, the only thing that can cause distension is *exhalation*, and, in particular, vigorous exhalation, to where there is now inordinate *positive* pressure relative to pleural pressure.  Mechanical inflation of a torpid lung is also positive pressure. Personally, I believe you are right that excessive negative pressures found in obstructive breathing can create pulmonary trauma itself, though this type of trauma I could not speculate upon.  It could be reverse-distensive trauma, although reverse distension might most resemble alveolar collapse, which is a natural tendency.  It could be capillary compression and ensuing changes in circulatory rates, etc.  Inspiring against obstruction likely facilitates ongoing implosion of the upper airway.  I can only believe that much COPD found in apnea stems from such alveolar distortions as inhalations against obstruction. Using CPAP has got to be better than not using it — if for nothing else than quality of life.  If CPAP were not so lucrative, tracheostomy would be challenged and perfected.  Any longterm consequences of CPAP await to be seen, which we hope are negligible or non-existent over a normal lifespan. Doug —–== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==—– http://www.dejanews.com/   Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading

Response:

In article <6kcau7$eu…@nnrp1.dejanews.com

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        dr…@inovion.com wrote: <description of pressure in lungs deleted

Doug, can you cite references for this? T Sconyers

Response:

<description of pressure in lungs deleted Doug, can you cite references for this?

Tracy, the first paragraph comes from information in a physician- reference series of books known as the CIBA Collection, volume Respiratory System. Information regarding barotrauma and alveolar distension (volutrauma) comes from studies I have already posted to the group. The remainder was opinion, which I would claim is in-part extrapolation from these sources. Doug

Response:

I’ve seen remarks here about CPAP-related barotrauma, and I’ve heard elsewhere that some long-term saxophone players report pulmonary trouble in later life. I’ve no idea about the relative pressures involved, but perhaps someone here could cast a bit of light? Maybe by studying old saxophonists we could make a guess about the long-term effects of CPAP without doing the experiment the slow way. — Ned nospam = elden

Response:

Since I am in my mid fifties, I have no personal experience on the subject, but I have been involved in community music for over 20 years.  There is antectdotal evidence that, to the contrary, wind instrument playing my be beneficial to the lungs. I have a number of friends in their seventies and eighties who are active players.  They have their share of health problems, but seldom, if ever, are they related to the lungs and heart problems seem to fewer than in the general population. This probably means nothing.  It is encouraging to me.  One of these is a very powerful professional trumpet player about my age with OSA and treated with CPAP.  I play baritone horn and tuba.  It seems that this training have strengthened our diaphram and intercostal muscles to make CPAP at relatively high pressure easier for us. In any case one old tuba-playing friend of mine who died about four years ago at age 80+ had a number of health problems but his doctor always thought the condition of his lungs was remarkably good.   I have no real proof, but I believe a study would reveal more benefits than problems from wind-instrument playing. PolkaNoble (Max Tunnell) "If Music be the food of love, play on"– The beginning of "Twelfth Night" by William Shakespere

Response:

In article <1998052118275100.OAA14…@ladder01.news.aol.com

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  polkano…@aol.com (PolkaNoble) wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Since I am in my mid fifties, I have no personal experience on the subject, but I have been involved in community music for over 20 years.  There is antectdotal evidence that, to the contrary, wind instrument playing my be beneficial to the lungs. I have a number of friends in their seventies and eighties who are active players.  They have their share of health problems, but seldom, if ever, are they related to the lungs and heart problems seem to fewer than in the general population. This probably means nothing.  It is encouraging to me.  One of these is a very powerful professional trumpet player about my age with OSA and treated with CPAP.  I play baritone horn and tuba.  It seems that this training have strengthened our diaphram and intercostal muscles to make CPAP at relatively high pressure easier for us. In any case one old tuba-playing friend of mine who died about four years ago at age 80+ had a number of health problems but his doctor always thought the condition of his lungs was remarkably good. I have no real proof, but I believe a study would reveal more benefits than problems from wind-instrument playing.

Little is really known about barotrauma (or Barry Manilow).  The comprehensive study to-date comes from the journal *Intensive Care Radiology*, in an article titled simply "Barotrauma" (1996, Yale). I’m not sure what they meant, but the study said: "Using intermittent positive pressure breeathing (IPPB) in dogs, Ovenfors found that grossly visible PIE [pulmonary interstitial emphysema] occurred regularly with PIP [peak inspiratory pressure] between 30 and 35 cm H2O.  At 25 cm H2O of peak pressure, PIE was not observed grossly, but it was present microscopically if the IPPB was continued for 12 hours or more . . . . The inspiratory pressures required to produce PIE in humans are not exactly known, but it probably occurs at approximately the same levels as in experimental animals.  Because the normal lung is inflated to total capacity with transpulmonary pressures of 35 cm H2O, it is conceivable that damaged alveoli could rupture even before such pressures are reached. . . . It is an emerging concept supported by recent studies that alveolar overdistention, so called "volutrauma," may play a more significant role than peak inspiratory pressure in the development of barotrauma." So that, barotrauma may be complex.  In placing a balloon into a beer bottle, you can exert very high pressures and not damage the balloon; however, take it out of the bottle, and lesser pressures will distend and pop the balloon.  So this new term "volutrauma" seems to be the appropriate paradigm with regards to barotrauma. Barotrauma from wind instruments may depend upon the nature of the thoracic cage and its ability to support pulmonary structures and prevent alveolar distension.  It may depend upon the way the musician breathes — whether diaphramatically, or by utilizing the higher lungs and intercostal musculature of respiration.  It might depend upon the wind instrument itself, or the number of gigs or jam sessions amassed.  It may depend upon preexisting pulmonary disease as well. Furthermore, the idea of barotrauma has never been clear.  Critical care settings have always regarded it only as pleural rupture or a literal tear of the sack about the lungs.  New medicine suggests subtle damage to the alveolar wall constitutes barotrauma and that it is far more discrete.  Therefore, a wind musician could conceivably have subtle barotrauma, say, with dyspnea, but not be regarded as having barotrauma by traditional markers of airleak phenomena in the lungs. There is at least one medical study documenting barotrauma in a partygoer who blew up several dozen balloons. With regards to wind instruments, much like they did in the balloon study, they determined how many cm H20 pressure it would take to blow up one balloon (or to blow a high note out of a horn?!) and then make comparisons with pressures used in positive pressure ventilation. We will get nowhere with barotrauma until mainstream medicine regards it as a subtle process only discernable microscopically, and with the ability to differentiate it from underlying pulmonary disease. Doug —–== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==—– http://www.dejanews.com/   Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading

Response:

In article <wluJzBA+qAZ1E…@elden.demon.co.uk

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        Ned Clack <N…@nospam.demon.co.uk

wrote: I’ve seen remarks here about CPAP-related barotrauma, and I’ve heard elsewhere that some long-term saxophone players report pulmonary trouble in later life. I’ve no idea about the relative pressures involved, but perhaps someone here could cast a bit of light? Maybe by studying old saxophonists we could make a guess about the long-term effects of CPAP without doing the experiment the slow way.

Perhaps, but you have to be able to establish: 1. That damage to the lungs is occurring 2. That said damage is by CPAP, and not by the apnea or    other possible causes. 3. That if CPAP damage does occur, it is does substantially    more damage than either other forms of (possibly ineffective)    treatments, or by leaving the apnea untreated. For example, my CPAP setting is set at 9cm, but the negative pressure measured in my lungs without CPAP hovered around -28cm. You’d have to devise a study which could figure out which pressure was the problematic one— the high negative pressure before, or the low positive pressure after. Not sure if saxophone players would necessarily be a good study group either. They may have a great deal of negative pressure, rather than positive. Quite frankly, designing a good study is hard, and takes a great deal of expertise and background knowledge in the area– as I know, having just completed some research of my own, and watched it be picked apart by collegues. T Sconyers – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

– Ned nospam = elden

Response:

Saxophonists do get a lot of negative pressure, especially when they play out of tune.   We have a lot of other jokes about tubas, piccolos, and alto horns (among others) but positive pressure is used to blow ALL wind instruments except the harmonica which does use negative pressure for some of its notes. We do sometimes refer to a bad player in terms that equate to "negative pressure", but that is strictly figuratively speaking (grin). Still, I will pass on the negative pressure comment to some Sax Men I know with a since of humor (It helps to have one if you play the sax–See what I mean?) I’ll see if there is some info on exactly how much pressure is generated for instruments in various ranges.  I believe studies have been done on that.   I suspect that for most instruments ( high trumpet excepted) the pressure will be considerably below the 28cm H2O you referred to, probably below 15, and it would be positive. PolkaNoble (Max Tunnell) "The Heckelphone is an ill wind that nobody blows good"– Attributed to Auturo Toscannini but I doubt he said that exactly. T Sconyers wrote snip

Not sure if saxophone players would necessarily be a good<BR study group either. They may have a great deal of negative<BR pressure,

snip

Response:

I am on CPAP at 18cm. When I play sax or clarinet, it feels like much less resistance than the CPAP. Although the 18cm does feel a lot like a clarinet with a way-too-hard reed. regards, eric pearson er…@nospammindspring.com On 22 May 1998 01:45:24 GMT, polkano…@aol.com (PolkaNoble) wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Saxophonists do get a lot of negative pressure, especially when they play out of tune.   We have a lot of other jokes about tubas, piccolos, and alto horns (among others) but positive pressure is used to blow ALL wind instruments except the harmonica which does use negative pressure for some of its notes. We do sometimes refer to a bad player in terms that equate to "negative pressure", but that is strictly figuratively speaking (grin). Still, I will pass on the negative pressure comment to some Sax Men I know with a since of humor (It helps to have one if you play the sax–See what I mean?) I’ll see if there is some info on exactly how much pressure is generated for instruments in various ranges.  I believe studies have been done on that.   I suspect that for most instruments ( high trumpet excepted) the pressure will be considerably below the 28cm H2O you referred to, probably below 15, and it would be positive. PolkaNoble (Max Tunnell) "The Heckelphone is an ill wind that nobody blows good"– Attributed to Auturo Toscannini but I doubt he said that exactly. T Sconyers wrote snip Not sure if saxophone players would necessarily be a good<BR study group either. They may have a great deal of negative<BR pressure, snip

Response:

Question:

Thanks for the information David.  I suggest you visit this site for more information on Lamictal (lamotrigine)  Depression Central:             http://www.psycom.net/depression.central.html There’s some great infomration there!                                             Juliet                                   Ring the bells that still can ring                                   Forget your perfect offering.                                   There is a crack in everything.                                   That’s how the light gets in.                                   – Leonard Cohen, "Athem"-

Response:

Hi Surfs Edge/ Juliet: I’ve been on lamactal for about 3 months. I am a very rapid cycler (I have cycled three time a day.), however lamictal was help to stop my mania. The only real problem that I have is that I am resistant to these meds. Over the last three years I have been on over a 100 different combinations of meds.  One combination lasted nine months until it broke down (frustrating). the lamictal has work very well for me until this week. I was up to 300mg per day plus 300mg of lithium.  I was previously on 1200 mg of lithium until I started lamictal. I have not experienced any side effect from lamictal. But, as you were told in a previous letter, each of us is unique and reacts differently to various meds. Good luck to you. Arne – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Has anyone had first hand expierence with lamotrigine (lamictal)? I am considering taking this med and am trying to learn more about it. I have found about the stats, etc but haven’t spoken to someone who takes this med.  Any information would be appreciated.         Thanks.                                           Juliet                                   Ring the bells that still can ring                                   Forget your perfect offering.                                   There is a crack in everything.                                   That’s how the light gets in.                                   – Leonard Cohen, "Athem"-

Response:

Hi, I’ve been on Lamictal for a month and a half with no problems and some benefit, see my post in alt.support.depression.manic, which just goes to show what sucks about this illness .. The only way to find out how you are going to react to a medication is to take it. Rapid cyclers seem to be particularly problematic. In my case over the summer I was on Paxil an SSRI anti depressant similar to Prozac. It made me depressed and sleepy.  When I went off it I went slightly manic for several weeks. Go figure. Try to be philosophical as you experience the adventure of taking a new medication(See my posting to MoiraArwen Re Depakote in alt support depression.manic) In any case hang in there everyone. David – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Has anyone had first hand expierence with lamotrigine (lamictal)? I am i just switched off it. in my experience: good antimanic. supposedly has AD effects, but i went into a long depression on it, even though i’m usually a rapid-cycler. made me very drowsy. required me doubling my effexor dose, and i had to add atenolol for the tremors. and it’s not coated, so it tastes icky, if anyone but me cares. brooke — the further i get from the things that i care about, the less i care about how much further away i get (cure)

Response:

An FAQ on lamotrigine (Lamictal) may be found at:        http://www.psycom.net/depression.central.lamotrigine.html Best regards . . . Ivan

: Has anyone had first hand expierence with lamotrigine (lamictal)? I am : considering taking this med and am trying to learn more about it. I have : found about the stats, etc but haven’t spoken to someone who takes this : med.  Any information would be appreciated.         Thanks. :                                           Juliet :                                   Ring the bells that still can ring :                                   Forget your perfect offering. :                                   There is a crack in everything. :                                   That’s how the light gets in. :                                   – Leonard Cohen, "Athem"- — —                                                         \\           ||                          Ivan Goldberg, MD                ~          || || V: 212 876 7800  /  1346 Lexington Ave NYC 10128  /  F: 212 737 0473 || ||             http://www.psycom.net/depression.central.html            || ||                   http://www.psycom.net/ijppp.html                   ||

Response:

Has anyone had first hand expierence with lamotrigine (lamictal)? I am considering taking this med and am trying to learn more about it. I have found about the stats, etc but haven’t spoken to someone who takes this med.  Any information would be appreciated.         Thanks.                                           Juliet                                   Ring the bells that still can ring                                   Forget your perfect offering.                                   There is a crack in everything.                                   That’s how the light gets in.                                   – Leonard Cohen, "Athem"-

Response:

Greetings Juliet: Below is some information that I found about Lamictal on the www. I’ve been taking it for 6 weeks so far. I’ve gradually been increasing the dose. I am up to 37.5 mg/day along with 500 mg/day Depakote. I think the lamictal is helping me. It is making a depression that I am going through now less severe than it would be otherwise. I am at a rather low dose as yet. People typically take 3 times the dose that I am taking. The only side effect that I have had is a slight headache for the first day when I increase the dose each time. I started taking only a half a 25mg pill every other day. I found out about this medication on my own via the internet and my Dr. got more information from the drug comany. It seems to be safe and has been used outside of the us by a lot of people. Anti depressants have never helped me. Lithium has never helped me. Depakote seems to make my cycles less extreme but mainly helps with mania. I’ve used that for several years. I am guardedly optimistic about Lamictal. If you have other information besides what I’ve attached and what is in the PDR, I’d be interested in hearing about it. If there is anything else you’d like to know please feel free to ask. In any case hang in there, David David Vogel Hackensack NJ Online Coverage from the 149th Annual Meeting of the American Psychiatric Association Lamotrigine in Treatment-Refractory Bipolar Disorder Robert M. Smith, MD Lamotrigine was effective in both phases of bipolar disorder in an open trial, with its most significant role anticipated for treatment of the depressed phase. Joseph Calabrese, MD, of Case Western Reserve Medical Center reported on the first 6 months of a 12-month, multicenter, open inital study of lamotrigine in treatment-resistant or -intolerant bipolar patients. Lamotrigine is an anticonvulsant derived from an antimalarial agent which has now been used in over 200,000 patients. Initial case reports in patients taking the drug showed it was effective in rapid-cycling patients with severe, refractory depression. It is well known that the depressed phase of bipolar disorder is particularly difficult to treat. The study reported on by Dr. Calabrese included 218 patients with bipolar disorder I or II, in any phase except euthymic; patients with epilepsy or active substance abuse were excluded. Positive response to lamotrigine was seen in 64% of depressed patients, and 76% of hypomanic/manic/mixed patients, as reflected in standardized measures. The study included some patients who received lamotrigine alone, and others who had a combination of antimanic agent(s) plus lamotrigine. The most common side effect and reason for discontinuing the drug was development of a rash. Lamotrigine was generally well tolerated and the results suggest efficacy in both the manic and depressed phases in bipolar disorder. Dr. Calabrese stated that the guidelines listed in the PDR may be used as a reference for dosage and estimated that the average required dose will be approximately 150mg. The drug must be titrated slowly, especially if given concurrently with medications that inhibit hepatic metabolism, such as valproate. A double-blind study is currently being conducted. Robert M. Smith, MD Robert M. Smith, MD is Attending Psychiatrist at St. Lukes/Roosevelt Hospital Outpatient Psychiatry Clinic; Candidate at The New York Psychoanalytic Institute; and Medical Director of the Villa Outpatient Substance Abuse Center. Dr. Smith was Chief Resident in Psychiatry from 1992 to 1993 at NYU Medical Center.                     http://www.medscape.com Antidepressants that once induced mood-cycling do not do so when administered along with lamotragine (Lamictal). It seems that this newly released (in the USA) anticonvulsant will play at least as large a role as valproate in the treatment of pholks with bipolar mood disorders. See also: general info on lamotrigine and its use in seizure disorders. I have found lamotrigine often to be effective in the treatment of patients:     with rapid cycling bipolar disorder     with hard-to-treat mixed states     with depression in whom     antidepressants cause mania or cycling Lamotrigine is tolerated best when introduced slowly. A rash that may necessitate discontinuation is more likely to develop in patients started on too high a dose or in those patients in whom the dose is increased too rapidly. There are some pharmacokinetic interactions of lamotrigine that should be kept in mind. Carbamazepine levels are increased by lamotrigine, and valproate levels are decreased somewhat by lamotrigine. Enzyme inducers such as carbamazepine decrease the t-1/2 of lamotrigine to the point where it should be administered q12h rather than q.o.d. In a patient not taking carbamazepine I usually initiate tx with 25 mg h.s. and increase the dose by 25 mg per day per week until a dose of 100 mg h.s. is reached. If a response is not seen after one week at this dose, I then increase the dose to 200 mg h.s. With a few patients I have had to go higher. Most impressive have been the results with rapidly cycling bipolar individuals who have not responded to valproate and/or carbamazepine. Also, the protection against antidepressant-induced cycling and mania has been very useful. I have also had good experiences using lamotrigine to treat the mood lability of so called "borderline" patients. There are no double-blind placebo-controlled studies to confirm the observations above. Charles Bowden has reported worthwhile preliminary results with lamotragine in bipolar patients, N = about 50, not published yet… Manufacturer reportedly somewhat concerned about high incidence of rashes and isn’t sure if they are comfortable investigating it for new use until there is more post-marketing data. At 07:30 AM 4/28/96 -0400,

    You mention that you begin with     a dose of 25 mg h.s. on patients     not taking carbamazepine. How     about patients on valproate? The     PDR suggests that one begins     with a dose of 25 mg every other     day for two weeks. Other     questions: Do your patients end     up only on lamotrigine? How     frequently do they end up on a     combination of lamotrigine and     carbamazepine? With patients on valproate I begin with 1/2 of a 25 mg tablet at bedtime and slowly increase the dose from there. As I see few people on carbamazepine these days, I have few who end up on the combination of carbamazepine + lamotrigine. Those who are asked for a reference regarding the innovative use of lamotrigine with patients who have treatment-resistant mood disorders may find Lamotrigine in Treatment-Refractory Bipolar Disorder useful. (EDT) "Start low and go slow" to minimize the risk of rash or other significant adverse events. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Has anyone had first hand expierence with lamotrigine (lamictal)? I am considering taking this med and am trying to learn more about it. I have found about the stats, etc but haven’t spoken to someone who takes this med.  Any information would be appreciated.         Thanks.                                          Juliet ***                                  Ring the bells that still can ring                                  Forget your perfect offering.                                  There is a crack in everything.                                  That’s how the light gets in.                                  - Leonard Cohen, "Athem"- ***

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