Question:

Dave, I have never posted to a newsgroup before therefore don’t know how to add the relevant pieces of messages from previous posts but I feel I have very important information which will be helpful to some of your group. I live in the uk and I’m registered disabled due to (hereditary) deafness in both ears and wear hearing aids in both ears. I also have tinnitus although I don’t find it a major problem. My sister suffers from tinnitus and finds that there are certain noises which trigger an episode. She especially found it difficult when trying to get to sleep. Her doctor advised her of certain things to try. I  gave her the address of the (RNID) Royal National Institute for the Deaf which no-one else has ever mentioned to her (she’s not deaf and only hard of hearing if you ask her to PAY for something BUT she could hear a

Question:

Hi, need some quick advise, i took effexor last night, 37.5 mg. I woke up today, in a state of panic, and my pupils were BIG as a watermealon. Is this a normal side effect,and what could i take to counteract this? need advise geno

Response:

Hi, need some quick advise, i took effexor last night, 37.5 mg. I woke up today, in a state of panic, and my pupils were BIG as a watermealon. Is this a normal side effect,and what could i take to counteract this? need advise geno

If I were you, I would, for starters, abstain from anything that contains caffeine or even aspartame.

Response:

geno, big pupils is a normal side effect. no worries ) there’s not much you can do about it. ~*~nwysca~*~ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, need some quick advise, i took effexor last night, 37.5 mg. I woke up today, in a state of panic, and my pupils were BIG as a watermealon. Is this a normal side effect,and what could i take to counteract this? need advise geno If I were you, I would, for starters, abstain from anything that contains caffeine or even aspartame.

Response:

Question:

Hi Jay, Joe, although paxil has been approved by the FDA for use on panic, it’s nevertheless an SSRI antidepressant, which isn’t a medication of choice for anxiety/panic, although many doctors prescribe it.

I’m sorry, but I have to disagree. many thousands, perhaps millions, of people have had there anxiety reduced or stopped cold by SSRIs. Every person is different, what helps one may not help another, or even make matters worse. So we need to be careful about making generalisations. First of all, I’d like for you to know that panic is a "monster" that you created with your own mind; it’s wasn’t caused by anything else, other than the way your cognitive processes work.  

Well my "monster" was caused by breathing in solvent over an extended period. How do I know? Two 2 people that occupied my office and the guy that used it after me also developed anxiety/panic. Conversely, it’s your thinking process that’s going to eventually destroy this "monster".  Just remember throughout the email, that panic is ALL in your head.  

That depends on whether by head you mean mind or brain. Some people’s anxiety is mainly psychologically (mind) based and they usually recover, but a percentage don’t and I suspect thats because there anxiety is brain based. snipped Here’s the deal.  It’s a subconsciously cognitive disorder. Now many psychs argue that panic is a result of a (sometimes inherited) chemical imbalance in the brain (i.e. a reduction in a neurotransmitter, such as serotonin).

No, its an imbalance in receptors (numbers and sensitivity) for some neurotransmitters. An imbalance caused by an inability to adapt correctly to stressors. The ‘normal’ reaction to stress is that the number and/or sensitivity of some receptors is reduced. In those that develop anxiety this adaption does not occur. There is also, IMV, another factor that is rarely mentioned, the brains continual forging of new connects between brain cells. This is, in part, how we learn and I believe its also the reason why anxiety can be so hard to deal with. Over time the connections related to anxiety/fear become so reinforced that they become impossible to disconnect. BTW-its not a lack of serotonin. Most of the (anxiety)problems appear to have more to do with norepinephrin (noradrenaline) receptors, but to the extent that serotonin is involved, its not the lack of it that is a problem, but probably too much. ADs don’t readdress a lack, they induce an even higher level to force the reduction of serotonin receptors. One side effect is that this also ‘normalises’ the norepinephrin receptor levels. How is not well understood. snipped The best antidepressants for panic/anxiety/agoraphobia are undoubtedly MAOI’s. MAOI’s ARE ANTIDEPRESSANTS OF CHOICE FOR ANXIETY. Either parnate or nardil WILL stop the anxiety (along with a benzo). These antidepressants are older than SSRI’s, and doctors who don’t know much about anxiety don’t prescribe them, because there are various food and medication restrictions (no cheese, moderate alcohol, moderate chocolate, etc..). It’s so easy to follow.  But they’re WAY more effective than prozac, paxil, and effexor. A lot of times, SSRI’s can actually make a situation worse. With Nardil or Parnate, the anxiety dissipates. Any psychiatrist who SPECIALIZES in anxiety ONLY will agree with me.

While I agree that MAOIs seem to have the strongest anti-anxiety affect of all the ADs, the dietary restriction should not be dismissed. Much of the food we now eat is prepared by others and its often difficult, if not impossible, to get info on ingredients. snipped Benzos: Now, in addition to an antidepressant, you’ll need a benzo.  

Why? Given that benzos are very effective, then why complicate matters with a AD? The reason is that ADs can, to a greater or lesser degree, correct brain states. Benzos do not. While useful, to suggest that benzos should automatically be taken is, IMO, not necessarily wise, nor in many cases are they needed long term. snipped I’ve seen a lot of postings questioning the drug "Buspar" on here. Buspar is designeed for GAD (Generalized Anxiety Disorder), and is not a medication of choice for panic/agoraphobia. In fact, Buspar has been shown through studies to be ineffective even for GAD. I wouldn’t recommend Buspar for anyone.

While I found Buspar to be totally useless, I disagree with your generalisation. If you check back through the asap archives I think you’ll find that about 80% of posters haven’t benefited from Buspar. But, the remaining 20% do claim that is has. Even if this is only from the placebo effect, its still a good result. (According to psychologists all ADs operate on the placebo effect!) Also, I’ve seen postings on St. John’s Wort, and Kava-Kava. St. Johns Wort supposedly acts like an MAOI, and kava-kava is supposed to act like a benzo.  Kava-Kava may de-stress some people from their daily activities, etc., but as far as acute anxiety, I woudln’t recommend it. Honestly, I haven’t heard of anyone with a clinical anxiety disorder benefit from either. I wouldn’t trust them; I’d go the proper route if I really wanted to get over these.

I agree totally. Anxiety comes in many forms, with many levels of intensity. While these product may have a role in reducing the milder varieties, IMO&E, for severe anxiety their effectiveness is doubtful. THERAPY: Lastly, medication is only a temporary band-aid. It’s useful, and beneficial. But the ultimate cure is COGNITIVE BEHAVIORAL THERAPY.  <snipped

I’m glad that CBT has apparently worked wonders for you, but to suggest that its *THE* cure, is IMO, way over the top. Proponents claim a 70% success rate (about the same as meds), however, most of the studies that support this were undertaken  on people within 12 months of their ‘cure.’ IME, over a longer time frame the results are nowhere near as good. CBT *IS* a useful aid. In some cases it is the only therapy needed. But, for most I believe that medication *PLUS* CBT is the best treatment currently available. Ian "All I want to be is normally insane."  Marlon Brando

Response:

Joe, although paxil has been approved by the FDA for use on panic, it’s nevertheless an SSRI antidepressant, which isn’t a medication of choice for anxiety/panic, although many doctors prescribe it.  Wellbutrin is definitely not a medication of choice for anxiety.  Here is some information I hope you find helpful.  By the way, my name is Jay, and I’m a former sufferer of panic w/ agoraphobia.  I now am a volunteer at an anxiety clinic near my Sububan Detroit home. GENERAL INFORMATION: First of all, I’d like for you to know that panic is a "monster" that you created with your own mind; it’s wasn’t caused by anything else, other than the way your cognitive processes work.  Conversely, it’s your thinking process that’s going to eventually destroy this "monster".  Just remember throughout the email, that panic is ALL in your head.   I would personally estimate that 90% of psychitrists/psychologists don’t know much about anxiety. Anybody who’s been through this and beaten it knows much more than most psychs. You have to shop for an ANXIETY SPECIALIST like you shop for clothes; never go to a doctor who does "depression, anxiety, family issues, attention defecit disorder, marriage problems, childrens’ issues, etc..). Anyway, most doctors who "think" they know how to treat anxiety use two things: an antidepressant, and a benzo. There are three classes of antidepressants: SSRI’s (paxil, zoloft, prozac, etc..), MAOI’s (nardil and parnate), and Tricylics. The three main benzos are xanax, ativan, and klonopin (now that valium is out of style). Here’s the deal.  It’s a subconsciously cognitive disorder. Now many psychs argue that panic is a result of a (sometimes inherited) chemical imbalance in the brain (i.e. a reduction in a neurotransmitter, such as seretonin). This may be true, however it’s one’s thinking pattern that is the cause of this, as well as the trait that’s inherited (the ability to think negatively). Through therapy (which I’ll mention later), you’ll be able to recognize this irrational, distorted, subconscious thinking pattern, and correct it, to think more positive and rational. When you think properly, your brain chemical stablize at an optimal level. Liken panic to this:  There’s a leader of an orchestra (your subconscious mind) hiding behind the curtains, so you don’t recognize him.  But he’s controlling the whole entire band, which is playing lousy, rotten music.  The key to making the band a better one is to locate this leader/conducter of the orchestra, train him to forget about his bad habits that lead to his poor conducting, and reprgram him to conduct a band that plays in peaceful harmony.   MEDICATIONS: Anitdepressants: First of all, most doctors precscribe SSRI’s, because they think it’s this "new" class of antidepressants that have little side effects, and no food restrictions. So most docs do prozac, paxil, zoloft, effexor, whatever. All of these antidepressants are ineffective in treating anxiety; SSRI’s ARE NOT ANTIDEPRESSANTS OF CHOICE FOR ANXIETY. The best antidepressants for panic/anxiety/agoraphobia are undoubtedly MAOI’s. MAOI’s ARE ANTIDEPRESSANTS OF CHOICE FOR ANXIETY. Either parnate or nardil WILL stop the anxiety (along with a benzo). These antidepressants are older than SSRI’s, and doctors who don’t know much about anxiety don’t prescribe them, because there are various food and medication restrictions (no cheese, moderate alcohol, moderate chocolate, etc..). It’s so easy to follow.  But they’re WAY more effective than prozac, paxil, and effexor. A lot of times, SSRI’s can actually make a situation worse. With Nardil or Parnate, the anxiety dissipates. Any psychiatrist who SPECIALIZES in anxiety ONLY will agree with me. They’re hard to find, though; the whole key is finding a doc who knows what he/she’s talking about. Benzos: Now, in addition to an antidepressant, you’ll need a benzo. Benzos are NOT addictive to patients with a clinical anxiety disorder. Xanax is kinda out-of-style. Ativan is good, will block panic, and takes only 5-15 minuites to "kick-in"; it’s lasting effect, however, is only about 6 hours. Klonopin is becoming more popular for treating anxiety. It’s what I take. It takes a half-hour to 45 minutes to "kick in", but lasts all day. It technically has a half life of 24-48 hours! But you take it twice a day. When you wake up in the morning, your panic is still blocked by the pill you took the night before! In summary, Benzos block panic; BENZOS ARE MEDICATIONS OF CHOICE FOR ANXIETY.   There seems to be more research support for the use of  Klonopin (clonazepam) in the treatment of anxiety than for the other anti-anxiety medications.  If a professional tells a person with a definable, DSM-IV anxiety disorder that the anti-anxiety agents may prove addictive to them, the professional (a) is not aware of research in the area of anxiety, and (b) should probably not be treating you.  The anti-anxiety agents work, they are safe, and people with anxiety disorders usually stay on a low dosage while going through CBT.  These medications are nothing to worry about.    When stopping anti-anxiety use, it is necessary to taper off the medication slowly, by reducing the dose over a period of 3 to 4 weeks.   Anyway, for instance, a prescription of Nardil (an MAOI) and Klonopin (a Benzo) would be very ideal for panic, w/ or w/out agoraphobia.  If an antidepressant isn’t needed, the a prescription of klonpin or ativan would be ideal.     Other bad medications: I must admit, I’ve seen a lot of postings questioning the drug "Buspar" on here. Buspar is designeed for GAD (Generalized Anxiety Disorder), and is not a medication of choice for panic/agoraphobia. In fact, Buspar has been shown through studies to be ineffective even for GAD. I wouldn’t recommend Buspar for anyone. Also, I’ve seen postings on St. John’s Wort, and Kava-Kava. St. Johns Wort supposedly acts like an MAOI, and kava-kava is supposed to act like a benzo.  Kava-Kava may de-stress some people from their daily activities, etc., but as far as acute anxiety, I woudln’t recommend it. Honestly, I haven’t heard of anyone with a clinical anxiety disorder benefit from either. I wouldn’t trust them; I’d go the proper route if I really wanted to get over these. THERAPY: Lastly, medication is only a temporary band-aid. It’s useful, and beneficial. But the ultimate cure is COGNITIVE BEHAVIORAL THERAPY. This will include self-hypnosis, which changes the way your subconscious brain thinks, and helps you relax. It also involves other exercises that literally change the way your neuropathways in your brain think, and drills it in to your head, to the point where you can’t go back to your old style of thinking. You’ll learn to recognize the "leader of the orchestra", and reprgram him to think rationally. Remember — anxiety specialist!  You should have health insurance. You have to call them, talk to people, shop around, and find a doctor who SPECIALIZES in anxiety. If your health insurance doesn’t have an anxiety specialist, you’ll have to get some money and go private — it’s worth it, though, and there are very good payment plans available.  I’ll help you find one near you if you let me know where you live. TEMPORARY COPING STRATEGIES: In the meantime, everyone with anxiety – try to think about something else; when you feel it "coming on", turn on the radio; watch t.v.; hop on the computer; call a friend; just think about something else!!! If your mind isn’t on anxiety, you won’t experience anxiety. But in order to prevent it from reocurring, a reprogramming of the subconscious mind is a necessity. Take care, and email me anytime if you have any further questions, or needsdocumentation from an anxiety specialist — or need help in finding an anxiety specialist (I’ll find one for you, near where you live).

Response:

i have been advised to try either wellbutrin or zoloft to quell my panic disorder, anyone with any experience with help, advice? Joe

Response:

i have been advised to try either wellbutrin or zoloft to quell my panic disorder, anyone with any experience with help, advice? Joe

I think I did answer this. Zoloft is a much better med for PD then Wellbutrin is, which if anything might even enhance your panic. Today it seems that the best SSRI’s in terms of side efects are not Zoloft and Paxil but Prozac and Luvox. A benzo like Xanax may be added, especially in the first 4-8 weeks in which the SSRI has to settle in yout system and may cause a worsening of symptoms. Philip

Response:

Question:

says… It hardly seems fair that those who guard our health do so at this kind of price. Without blaming all such woes on lifestyle, I do wish doctoring were a less heroic and more comfortable thing. Good luck — Julianne

In Australia, we don’t tend to glorify doctors — at least general practitioners.In many ways it’s just another job. This has its advantages and disadvantages. People don’t believe we are superhuman; they feel free to ask us questions if they don’t understand something. I’m sure if you scratch any American doctor, you’d find a patient of some type; and also a person — unless you’ve begun cloning your MDs (which, from reading some of the stories here, I would believe!) Ciao, Raymot ======= Brisbane, Australia [[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[

Response:

It hardly seems fair that those who guard our health do so at this kind of price. Without blaming all such woes on lifestyle, I do wish doctoring were a less heroic and more comfortable thing. Good luck — Julianne

Response:

Hi All, Ok, here’s the post about my headaches. I have always had tension headaches. I used to be rarely without them — just sometimes they were worse than others. I’ve tried all sorts of medications over the years — and being a physician myself, I can prescribe for myself what I think I need (except for narcotics, and controlled drugs). This year my headaches have dramatically reduced, I think due to several reasons. Firstly, I decided not to feel guilty about self-prescribing the drugs I needed. Secondly, I got a second opinion about not feeling guilty about self- prescribing the drugs I needed. The drugs I’m taking are Zoloft (sertraline) 100mg/day, Xanax (alprazolam) 1mg/day (a small dose, but it works), and Digesic (dextropropoxyphene + paracetamol) as necessary (usually ~ 3-4/day) Adequate and regular sleep is essential for me. I am using a mouth splint at night (to stop snoring and to stop teeth-grinding). This really helps lessen the headaches, and is as important as the drugs. After having a $300 splint fall apart, I made one myself out of a $7.95 sports mouthguard. The essential features are that it stops the bruxism, and acts as a mandibular advancement splint (insofar as I have an overbite, and with the splint I can’t close my teeth together fully, so my airway stays more open.) I also believe the texture of the splint takes some pressure off the clenching muscles — temporalis and masseters etc. It’s springy and pushes back. I’m really amazed at the difference a hunk of rubber between my teeth at nighttime can make to the severity of those waking headaches. In order of importance, I would say the following factors have contributed to the significant improvement in my tension headaches: 1) Zoloft;  2) Mouth splint at night;  3) Xanax;   4) Adequate Sleep; 5) Digesic – Analgesics. Note, this is only a personal story. It won’t work for everyone, and I’m not suggesting it in the capacity of a physician. But it’s worked for me and I can honestly say that I can go for most of the day without a headache sometimes! Ciao, Raymot ======= Brisbane, Australia [[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[

Response:

Question:

David responds: You are lucky that you only felt a little wired! Approximately 25% of people who have used Zoloft and Prozac type meds have experienced some of the MANY side effects listed on the rap sheet available at the pharmacy. Of those 25% I experienced a reaction several hours after taking my first pill; nausea and diarrhea. The next day, after taking my second pill, I plunged headlong into every known side effect listed by the pharmaceutical company and then some. I was not predisposed to expect any; in fact my GP made it sound like this was a miracle drug, cure-all and I couldn’t wait to take it in anticipation of relief from PD. After the second pill I experienced the following violent reactions: -Severe nausea without vomitting -Six substantial bowel discharges of pink water only -Vertigo so severe, that I had to crawl to the toilet -Stabbing pinpoint pain in the back of my head, lower left side -Severe chills while sweating profusely alternating with… -Severe hot flashes, while my skin was contracting into goosebumps -Total body weakness -Body spasms -Upon closing my eyes, pictures of brilliantly coloured (dazzling) mundane objects would rotate through my ‘mind’s eye’, akin to what people have described while on a bad LSD trip. -Uncontrollable shaking and trembling -Inability to sleep for two full nights It took three days to recuperate enough to be able to get up and around again. I checked with my doctor and pharmacist and both claimed that none of these symtoms were unusual but said that most people who do experience side effects, only have one or two at most. However, my supervisor at work had taken Zoloft a year prior to me and had never spoken about his experience till I told him mine. He had suffered the same reactions on the day of his second pill. Just recounting my experience brought him to tears, thinking back to how bad his reaction had been. I was switched to Paxil and then to Manerix (sp??) Both of those drugs caused lesser but totally intolerable side effects mostly in the GI tract. One year after my encounter with Zoloft, a young woman at the office was prescribed the same drug and dosage and she only experienced nausea for the first week and then was perfectly fine. However, three years into her therapy and still on Zoloft, she has not conquered one symptom of PD and is now on long term disability insurance, unable to work and suffering severely from agoraphobia.  She considers it a triumph to get out of her flat once a month, with the help of two friends; one on either side of her. Three years of Zoloft and at thirty three she has been reduced to a fearful, agoraphobic, unemployed and suicidal mess. While I agree that different drug therapies and also combinations of therapies are needed based on the individual rather than the disorder, I would tend to agree that benzos are most efficient for PD. My specialist agrees and only uses Paxil or Zoloft if firstly, the patient can tolerate it, and secondly, they have chronic depression as well as PD. He has been treating PD exclusively for 25 years and finds that almost everyone who cannot tolerate Prozac family of drugs for depression, can tolerate Imipramine. Unfortunately one must go through 4-6 weeks of  extremely light sleep before tolerating it. This is the reason that Imipramine was prescribed at one time for children who were bed-wetters. It kept them from achieving deep levels of sleep, given in short, periodic doses. I think you will find great success with the benzo route but do not be discouraged if  Klonopin is not the one which works for you and your body chemistry. I had miraculous freedom from severe PD in a three stage therapy starting with Xanax (extremely fast acting, short lived), euphoric relief with Lectopam (medium lasting) as my doctor brought me down to Rivotril (very long lasting) which keeps the symtoms at bay but not as effectively as the fast acting benzos. My advice would be that if the Klonopin is not working to your satisfction within ten days, it probably is not the drug you need and you should try a new one. Good luck with your new meds.!! David To other readers; I am not knocking Zoloft as a med. I just feel that people should be aware that they MIGHT be unfortunate enough to experience mild to severe side effects. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I guess Zoloft and I were not a match made in heaven.  After just three days I found myself so wired last night, I felt like I had eaten an entire package of No Doz!  This was entirely different than the generalized anxiety I often feel.  I called the p-doc around 10:30 and he told me to stop taking it.  I’m seeing him Friday to talk about what’s next. Probably benzos.  Most likely Klonopin.  So, all of you Klonopin success stories–I’d love to hear them! Iris —

Response:

IMO, we should all become our own doctors as it’s our bodies.  No, I don’t mean not to consult an actual doctor; you know what I mean. Love and hugs to the whooooole board.  Janie. I entirely agree with you, Janie – that we need to educate ourselves to the maximum about our conditions and then work *with* our doctors

Not that you would ever be encouraged by any doctor to actually do so of course…  Job security and all that. Iris —

Response:

I’m becoming more convinced of that everyday.  Based on what I’ve read here and elsewhere, it seems benzos have the better track record by far. That’s not to discount SSRI’s or any AD, but for dealing with the disabling panic quickly, benzos seem to be the way to go.  My thought now is to deal with the panic and anticipatory anxiety which is crippling me right now.  Then, if I find some underlying depression, or things still a

Iris, even when I took SSRI’s for Depression, they made me so agitated that I had to take them with Klonopin. this was way before I had PD. So I have strong opinions about treating PD with SSRIs as the first step. Benzos would seem a much wiser way to go. As Cooper said, there is no proven link between Serotonin and PD as there is with Serotonin and Depression. That’s why my Doc back in Boston was adamant about my going on Parnate, an MAO, and sticking with the Benzos. He does nothing but research in psychopharmacology and really knows this stuff backwards and forwards. And he’s been following me from a distance and hooking me up with good docs wherever I move to,  for 17 years, even though I’ve been gone from Boston all that time. As us Jews say, this is a real "mensch". This means MAN in Yiddish. As in good, responsible, kind, etc.. Listen, this guy is a genius. his name is Dr. Harrison Pope. He’s at McLean Hospital in Belmont. He does 99% research but he does have one patient. I call it his private private private practice. At the very least he could refer you to someone who knows PD inside and out. He knows everyone in and out of Boston who’s in the field. This may not be covered by insurance but it would be worth it to talk to someone who really cares and really knows his stuff. He was in the Esquire "most promising people under 40" section. Has been on 20/20, etc. Sorry to extoll his virtues ad nauseum but I don’t like or trust many people and he’s one of those few. If you want, e-mail me and I will hook you up with him. He’s a doll and he listens and he cares. I’m sorry I didn’t think of this sooner. I only recently figured out that you live in Boston and that you were only on an AD. I really believe that that Benzos will help you, Iris. You deserve to sleep and have some quality of life. If the doc you have doesn’t listen to you or doesn’t seem knowledgeable, then let me know. All of us in here are praying for you, Iris. all our love, Veronica et al WRITER/CATCH MY TRAIN OF THOUGHT "You can’t have everything. Where would you put it?" (Steven Wright)

Response:

David responds: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – (Casamiro) writes: own doctor! Iris IMO, we should all become our own doctors as it’s our bodies.  No, I don’t mean not to consult an actual doctor; you know what I mean.   ME TOO.  In fact, my own doctor believes this as well.  He thinks people need to read up and be informed of what is going on, as not all doctors do.  He also left the option to take xanax as my choice, since he told me it was ‘addictive’ and I would need to be weaned off of it.

My doctor has been treating PD for over twenty-five years and he encourages  his patients to participate in their meds therapy. As a responsible and caring doctor, he encourages all patients who are able, to become their own ’specialist’ by providing as much info as possible about PD and about the meds. In his book on PD he lists several pages of treatment therapies based on how the PD is manifesting, by sypmtoms. He also speaks harshly about people (doctors and researchers included)  who say that certain meds such as Xanax are "addictive". The analogy is; is insulin addictive given that a diabetic needs it every day and suffers seriously if the drug is withdrawn?  The same applies to Xanax, one of the most beneficial drugs in fighting PD. So much bullshit is put on the ‘net about Xanax and people love to recount their horror stories of coming "off" the drug. If someone has an allergic reaction, I can sympathize since I am allergic to many meds including pain killers, but this is a different issue.  The problem with Xanax is that it is clean, efficient, fast acting and not only controls PD but eliminates it for the short duration that it stays active in one’s body. The sad part is that most GPs will only prescribe .5 mg. three times per day, when the American Psychiatric Ass. recommends that up to 6-9 mg. may be required to effectively control PD. One of the reasons that doctors try to get patients off Xanax and on a slow acting benzo is simply to eliminate the need to take pills every two to three hours.  I feel sorry for those who recount all the terrible withdrawal symptoms and the living hell they went through coming off Xanax, when in fact all that really happened was a reoccurrence of PD symptoms. It’s sad that people with PD can’t recognize the symptoms of their own disorder and try to blame them on drug withdrawal. One more reason that we need to be ‘our own doctors’. Not by securing drugs without the consent of a doctor, but by becoming aware of the nature of PD and each of the many symptoms it creates. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Lee

Response:

Hi, Iris. I just tried to send you email but it bounced.  Do you have spam-preventing characters in your address, perchance? Thanks — –Kathleen — "Hope is the thing with feathers" — Emily Dickinson Delete * in address to reply by e-mail

Response:

(Casamiro) writes: own doctor! Iris

IMO, we should all become our own doctors as it’s our bodies.  No, I don’t mean

not to consult an actual doctor; you know what I mean.

  ME TOO.  In fact, my own doctor believes this as well.  He thinks people need to read up and be informed of what is going on, as not all doctors do.  He also left the option to take xanax as my choice, since he told me it was ‘addictive’ and I would need to be weaned off of it. Lee A little snogging goes a long way… <EG

Response:

I guess Zoloft and I were not a match made in heaven.  After just three days I found myself so wired last night, I felt like I had eaten an entire package of No Doz!  This was entirely different than the generalized anxiety I often feel.  I called the p-doc around 10:30 and he told me to

stop taking it.  I’m seeing him Friday to talk about what’s next.

Probably benzos.  Most likely Klonopin.  So, all of you Klonopin success

stories–I’d love to hear them!   Sorry to hear this Iris.  But at least now you know you can take medication. That in itself is something to celebrate.  Good luck with the next one :):) Lee A little snogging goes a long way… <EG

Response:

David responds: You are lucky that you only felt a little wired! Approximately 25% of people who have used Zoloft and Prozac type meds have experienced some of the MANY side effects listed on the rap sheet available at the pharmacy. Of those 25% I experienced a reaction several hours after taking my first pill; nausea and diarrhea. The next day, after taking my second pill, I plunged headlong into every known side effect listed by the pharmaceutical company and then some. I was not predisposed to expect any; in fact my GP made it sound like this was a miracle drug, cure-all and I couldn’t wait to take it in anticipation of relief from PD. After the second pill I experienced the following violent reactions: -Severe nausea without vomitting -Six substantial bowel discharges of pink water only -Vertigo so severe, that I had to crawl to the toilet -Stabbing pinpoint pain in the back of my head, lower left side -Severe chills while sweating profusely alternating with… -Severe hot flashes, while my skin was contracting into goose bumps -Total body weakness -Body spasms -Upon closing my eyes, pictures of brilliantly coloured (dazzling) mundane objects would rotate through my ‘mind’s eye’, akin to what people have described while on a bad LSD trip. -Uncontrollable shaking and trembling -Inability to sleep for two full nights It took three days to recuperate enough to be able to get up and around again. I checked with my doctor and pharmacist and both claimed that none of these symptoms were unusual but said that most people who do experience side effects, only have one or two at most. However, my supervisor at work had taken Zoloft a year prior to me and had never spoken about his experience till I told him mine. He had suffered the same reactions on the day of his second pill. Just recounting my experience brought him to tears, thinking back to how bad his reaction had been. I was switched to Paxil and then to Manerix (sp??) Both of those drugs caused lesser but totally intolerable side effects mostly in the GI tract. One year after my encounter with Zoloft, a young woman at the office was prescribed the same drug and dosage and she only experienced nausea for the first week and then was perfectly fine. However, three years into her therapy and still on Zoloft, she has not conquered one symptom of PD and is now on long term disability insurance, unable to work and suffering severely from agoraphobia.  She considers it a triumph to get out of her flat once a month, with the help of two friends; one on either side of her. Three years of Zoloft and at thirty three she has been reduced to a fearful, agoraphobic, unemployed and suicidal mess. While I agree that different drug therapies and also combinations of therapies are needed based on the individual rather than the disorder, I would tend to agree that benzos are most efficient for PD. My specialist agrees and only uses Paxil or Zoloft if firstly, the patient can tolerate it, and secondly, they have chronic depression as well as PD. He has been treating PD exclusively for 25 years and finds that almost everyone who cannot tolerate Prozac family of drugs for depression, can tolerate Imipramine. Unfortunately one must go through 4-6 weeks of  extremely light sleep before tolerating it. This is the reason that Imipramine was prescribed at one time for children who were bed-wetters. It kept them from achieving deep levels of sleep, given in short, periodic doses. I think you will find great success with the benzo route but do not be discouraged if  Klonopin is not the one which works for you and your body chemistry. I had miraculous freedom from severe PD in a three stage therapy starting with Xanax (extremely fast acting, short lived), euphoric relief with Lectopam (medium lasting) as my doctor brought me down to Rivotril (very long lasting) which keeps the symtoms at bay but not as effectively as the fast acting benzos. My advice would be that if the Klonopin is not working to your satisfaction within ten days, it probably is not the drug you need and you should try a new one. Good luck with your new meds.!! David To other readers; I am not knocking Zoloft as a med. I just feel that people should be aware that they MIGHT be unfortunate enough to experience mild to severe side effects. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I guess Zoloft and I were not a match made in heaven.  After just three days I found myself so wired last night, I felt like I had eaten an entire package of No Doz!  This was entirely different than the generalized anxiety I often feel.  I called the p-doc around 10:30 and he told me to stop taking it.  I’m seeing him Friday to talk about what’s next. Probably benzos.  Most likely Klonopin.  So, all of you Klonopin success stories–I’d love to hear them! Iris —

Response:

The doctor put me on zoloft for depression and panic attacks with agorophobia and the result was like magic, at least with respect to the panic attacks: after 24 hours (1 dose!) NO MORE PANIC ATTACKS and no more AGOROPHOBIA!  The depression remains and I continue to take the Zoloft for it.  The major side effect that I experience is insomnia (can’t get to sleep) but once I get to sleep I sleep better than ever. I just got some Ambien for sleep — I’ll try the first pill tonight.   I just hope that it works for my depression.  I have read that it takes between 7 and 28 days to see the antidepressant effects of Zoloft.  I’m taking only 50 mg a day.

I’m very glad you are able to take the Zoloft with such success.  However, I don’t know if it is that effective after just one dose. When I took Zoloft, the big buzz would set in 10-12 hours after I took it.  I was taking my dose in the morning, but in retrospect, taking it at night would have been better.  If you think about when the drug affects you most and adjust the timing of your dose accordingly, it may help. Sorry I can’t be more optimistic re: Zoloft.  I only took it 4 days but I couldn’t stand the way it made me feel. Iris —

Response:

doctor! Iris

IMO, we should all become our own doctors as it’s our bodies.  No, I don’t mean not to consult an actual doctor; you know what I mean. Love and hugs to the whooooole board.  Janie.

Response:

I’m becoming more convinced of that everyday.  Based on what I’ve read here and elsewhere, it seems benzos have the better track record by far. That’s not to discount SSRI’s or any AD, but for dealing with the disabling panic quickly, benzos seem to be the way to go.  My thought now is to deal with the panic and anticipatory anxiety which is crippling me right now.  Then, if I find some underlying depression, or things still aren’t "right" I’d consider the AD.  In this case, most likely Prozac since I have two family members who have taken it for depression with no side effects (three, if you count our dog!).  Also, Prozac can be taken in liquid form, so I could start with as little as 2-5 mg and work my way up.

Actually, that’s a very good point, Iris. A long while ago, the reminder that Prozac is available in liquid form was commonly given on this NG and we’ve rather let that drop of late. It could be the ideal way for people starting Prozac to begin. Sheesh–I"m becoming my own doctor!

Who else would you trust? — Gary Cooper

Response:

IMO, we should all become our own doctors as it’s our bodies.  No, I don’t mean not to consult an actual doctor; you know what I mean. Love and hugs to the whooooole board.  Janie.

I entirely agree with you, Janie – that we need to educate ourselves to the maximum about our conditions and then work *with* our doctors — Gary Cooper

Response:

The doctor put me on zoloft for depression and panic attacks with agorophobia and the result was like magic, at least with respect to the panic attacks: after 24 hours (1 dose!) NO MORE PANIC ATTACKS and no more AGOROPHOBIA!  The depression remains and I continue to take the Zoloft for it.  The major side effect that I experience is insomnia (can’t get to sleep) but once I get to sleep I sleep better than ever. I just got some Ambien for sleep — I’ll try the first pill tonight.   I just hope that it works for my depression.  I have read that it takes between 7 and 28 days to see the antidepressant effects of Zoloft.  I’m taking only 50 mg a day.

Response:

Boy, I hope Klonopin has fewer side effects!  I’m just now, at 4 pm the next day, starting to feel more "normal" (whatever normal is for a PD sufferer).  I’m just realizing how jittery I felt the last few days

Sorry this didn’t work for you, Iris but at least you tried and I know that was a big step for you. I hope you are giving yourself credit for that. I just got a lecture from a friend of mine who was on Xanax and Zoloft for quite some time.  She’s off the Xanax now, but still on Zoloft.  She told me she thought benzos wouldn’t solve the problem as they don’t affect serotonin levels, etc., etc.  I told her she might not have been able to stand the Zoloft if she hadn’t been on Xanax first.

Good response and sounds like someone you might need to tune out a bit in your quest for what works for you. Sigh.  I don’t know what the right answer is.

If only it was the same for all of us.  I suppose it’s whatever works for me, isn’t it?

Yup, and you will find it.  I think you will find the benzos much more…user friendly.  Good luck! Gwen

Response:

Hi Iris I have a suggestion.  My Dr. has discussed using prozac for me eventually.  Now he knows of my fear of meds and I have not been able to get on an AD so far. The way he told me we would do it is to take a 10 mg prozac and open it into a 4oz baby bottle of apple juice.  That way I can start on a very very low dosage 1/2 oz a day and then 1 oz a day etc…  He said I would feel less side effects that way and the meds would build up slowly plus it gives me some control over the med.  Maybe you could mention this to your dr. and see if it would be an option for you also.  It will take longer to get to a therapeutic dosage but at least it would help with the side effects Blessings, Kelly

Response:

Boy, I hope Klonopin has fewer side effects!  I’m just now, at 4 pm the next day, starting to feel more "normal" (whatever normal is for a PD sufferer).  I’m just realizing how jittery I felt the last few days.  By last night I wasn’t even able to think straight.  My 7 year old beat me in checkers around 3pm.  By 7pm I was climbing the walls.  I didn’t sleep all night.  I woke up wired.  I can’t stand that "buzzed" feeling.  I’m hoping for better results with a benzo.  My p-doc says he might still want to try an AD on me–perhaps Prozac since my sister was on it with no side effects.  Perhaps we’ll see.  If Klonopin can do the trick right now, so be it.

Hi, Iris – I’d have thought there’s every chance that Klonopin will do the trick. To be honest, I grow more sceptical by the day about the current policy of resorting to SSRIs first. The worst Klonopin is likely to do is make you drowsy, IMO. I just got a lecture from a friend of mine who was on Xanax and Zoloft for quite some time.  She’s off the Xanax now, but still on Zoloft.  She told me she thought benzos wouldn’t solve the problem as they don’t affect serotonin levels, etc., etc.  I told her she might not have been able to stand the Zoloft if she hadn’t been on Xanax first.

Your friend’s wrong. There is no certainty that serotonin is the implicated chemical in A/PD – it could be one of several, including GABA, which is what benzos work on. This is a case of YMMV and what worked for her simply may not be right for you. Sigh.  I don’t know what the right answer is.  I suppose it’s whatever works for me, isn’t it?

Cetainly is – good luck! — Gary Cooper

Response:

Hi, Iris – I’d have thought there’s every chance that Klonopin will do the trick. To be honest, I grow more sceptical by the day about the current policy of resorting to SSRIs first. The worst Klonopin is likely to do is make you drowsy, IMO.

I’m becoming more convinced of that everyday.  Based on what I’ve read here and elsewhere, it seems benzos have the better track record by far. That’s not to discount SSRI’s or any AD, but for dealing with the disabling panic quickly, benzos seem to be the way to go.  My thought now is to deal with the panic and anticipatory anxiety which is crippling me right now.  Then, if I find some underlying depression, or things still aren’t "right" I’d consider the AD.  In this case, most likely Prozac since I have two family members who have taken it for depression with no side effects (three, if you count our dog!).  Also, Prozac can be taken in liquid form, so I could start with as little as 2-5 mg and work my way up. Sheesh–I"m becoming my own doctor! Iris I just got a lecture from a friend of mine who was on Xanax and Zoloft for quite some time.  She’s off the Xanax now, but still on Zoloft.  She told me she thought benzos wouldn’t solve the problem as they don’t affect serotonin levels, etc., etc.  I told her she might not have been able to stand the Zoloft if she hadn’t been on Xanax first. Your friend’s wrong. There is no certainty that serotonin is the implicated chemical in A/PD – it could be one of several, including GABA, which is what benzos work on. This is a case of YMMV and what worked for her simply may not be right for you.

She had terrible depression as well, which at this point, I haven’t seen in myself. Iris —

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Iris I have a suggestion.  My Dr. has discussed using prozac for me eventually.  Now he knows of my fear of meds and I have not been able to get on an AD so far. The way he told me we would do it is to take a 10 mg prozac and open it into a 4oz baby bottle of apple juice.  That way I can start on a very very low dosage 1/2 oz a day and then 1 oz a day etc…  He said I would feel less side effects that way and the meds would build up slowly plus it gives me some control over the med.  Maybe you could mention this to your dr. and see if it would be an option for you also.  It will take longer to get to a therapeutic dosage but at least it would help with the side effects Blessings, Kelly

Good suggestion. As I posted earlier in response to Gary’s post, I’m going to get on the benzo first, see how that goes, then review whether or not I need the AD.  If so, Prozac may be a good choice for me. Iris —

Response:

I guess Zoloft and I were not a match made in heaven.  After just three days I found myself so wired last night, I felt like I had eaten an entire package of No Doz!  This was entirely different than the generalized anxiety I often feel.  I called the p-doc around 10:30 and he told me to stop taking it.  I’m seeing him Friday to talk about what’s next. Probably benzos.  Most likely Klonopin.  So, all of you Klonopin success stories–I’d love to hear them! Iris —

Response:

I’ve been maintained on Klonopin for at least 8 years.  I was able to start attending college.  Hey, I was even able to SIT in the class without running for the nearest door…. I can tell you some stories about speech class!  Talk about being shaky, but I made it.  Hopefully, it will work for you, too.

Response:

I couldnt tolerate Zoloft either.  Klonopin has helped anxiety, not a cure by any means, but it helps without any side effects.  Good luck PETER

Response:

I guess Zoloft and I were not a match made in heaven.  After just threedays I

found myself so wired last night, I felt like I had eaten an entirepackage of No Doz!  This was entirely different than the generalizedanxiety I often feel.  I called the p-doc around 10:30 and he told me tostop taking it.  I’m seeing him Friday to talk about what’s next. Probably benzos.  Most likely Klonopin.  So, all of you Klonopin success stories–I’d love to hear them! Iris Been on Klonopin for about 10 yrs – - currently on .5(1/2mg.) 3 x per day (a

low dose IMO) for panic and generalized anxiety.  I’m also on 20 mg Paxil for depression.  Doing well on these dosages except when I have to do something out of the ordinary, like today I’m going to a new gym so I know I will have a huge amount of anxiety.   My vote’s for Klonopin!  Good luck.  Love, Janie. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

I guess Zoloft and I were not a match made in heaven.  After just three days I found myself so wired last night, I felt like I had eaten an entire package of No Doz!  This was entirely different than the generalized anxiety I often feel.  I called the p-doc around 10:30 and he told me to stop taking it.  I’m seeing him Friday to talk about what’s next. Probably benzos.  Most likely Klonopin.  So, all of you Klonopin success stories–I’d love to hear them!

Sorry to hear it didn’t work out, Iris I’m one of those who also had a lot of problems with Zoloft and had to give it up – I’m sure you’ll be lots better with Klonopin, though as it has very few side effects. Good luck! — Gary Cooper

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I guess Zoloft and I were not a match made in heaven.  After just three days I found myself so wired last night, I felt like I had eaten an entire package of No Doz!  This was entirely different than the generalized anxiety I often feel.  I called the p-doc around 10:30 and he told me to stop taking it.  I’m seeing him Friday to talk about what’s next. Probably benzos.  Most likely Klonopin.  So, all of you Klonopin success stories–I’d love to hear them! Sorry to hear it didn’t work out, Iris I’m one of those who also had a lot of problems with Zoloft and had to give it up – I’m sure you’ll be lots better with Klonopin, though as it has very few side effects. Good luck! — Gary Cooper

Boy, I hope Klonopin has fewer side effects!  I’m just now, at 4 pm the next day, starting to feel more "normal" (whatever normal is for a PD sufferer).  I’m just realizing how jittery I felt the last few days.  By last night I wasn’t even able to think straight.  My 7 year old beat me in checkers around 3pm.  By 7pm I was climbing the walls.  I didn’t sleep all night.  I woke up wired.  I can’t stand that "buzzed" feeling.  I’m hoping for better results with a benzo.  My p-doc says he might still want to try an AD on me–perhaps Prozac since my sister was on it with no side effects.  Perhaps we’ll see.  If Klonopin can do the trick right now, so be it. I just got a lecture from a friend of mine who was on Xanax and Zoloft for quite some time.  She’s off the Xanax now, but still on Zoloft.  She told me she thought benzos wouldn’t solve the problem as they don’t affect serotonin levels, etc., etc.  I told her she might not have been able to stand the Zoloft if she hadn’t been on Xanax first. Sigh.  I don’t know what the right answer is.  I suppose it’s whatever works for me, isn’t it? Iris —

Response:

Sorry to hear it didn’t work out, Iris I’m one of those who also had a lot of problems with Zoloft and had to give it up – I’m sure you’ll be lots better with Klonopin, though as it has very few side effects. Good luck! Gary Cooper Boy, I hope Klonopin has fewer side effects!  I’m just now, at 4 pm thenext

day, starting to feel more "normal" (whatever normal is for a PDsufferer). I’m just realizing how jittery I felt the last few days.  Bylast night I wasn’t even able to think straight.  My 7 year old beat me incheckers around 3pm.  By 7pm I was climbing the walls.  I didn’t sleep allnight.  I woke up wired.  I can’t stand that "buzzed" feeling.  I’m hopingfor better results with a benzo.  My p-doc says he might still want to tryan AD on me–perhaps Prozac since my sister was on it with no sideeffects.  Perhaps we’ll see.  If Klonopin can do the trick right now, sobe it. I just got a lecture from a friend of mine who was on Xanax and Zoloft

forquite some time.  She’s off the Xanax now, but still on Zoloft.  She toldme she thought benzos wouldn’t solve the problem as they don’t affectserotonin levels, etc., etc.  I told her she might not have been able tostand the Zoloft if she hadn’t been on Xanax first. Sigh.  I don’t know what the right answer is.  I suppose it’s whateverworks for me, isn’t it? Iris

Iris, I needed the Klonopin to control my GAD and PD.  Janie. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

Question:

Hey, I took 10mg of Valium last night and got a normal night’s sleep!  At least I think I did.  Slept all the way through, no psycho dreams, no problems whatsoever, just a tiny bit of grogginess this morning.  I’m hoping that using a little pharmy assist just for sleep for the next 3 or 4 days will see me all the way through the rest of Effexor withdrawal. I’m hoping that I am *not* just putting it off, but my doc tells me I have no reason to worry about that.  Otherwise, some dizziness once up and about, but that is nothing compared to the wild nights of yesteryear.  I may be OK now.  Whew.

Good, now stop being such a bitch around here and get the stupid block off your email. I’ve missed you. Mary Beth "Real friends let friends drive naked."

Response:

Hey, I took 10mg of Valium last night and got a normal night’s sleep!  At least I think I did.  Slept all the way through, no psycho dreams, no problems whatsoever, just a tiny bit of grogginess this morning.  I’m hoping that using a little pharmy assist just for sleep for the next 3 or 4 days will see me all the way through the rest of Effexor withdrawal. I’m hoping that I am *not* just putting it off, but my doc tells me I have no reason to worry about that.  Otherwise, some dizziness once up and about, but that is nothing compared to the wild nights of yesteryear.  I may be OK now.  Whew.

Mark, Glad to hear that you found something to help you get through this. Hopefully, you’ve been through the worst of it. chuck

Response:

Hey, I took 10mg of Valium last night and got a normal night’s sleep!  At least I think I did.  Slept all the way through, no psycho dreams, no problems whatsoever, just a tiny bit of grogginess this morning.

Glad to hear that, Mark.  I hope you don’t have to stay on the Valium for more than a few days also.   I think I remember you (?) saying something about trying to drink lots of water to help clear out your system.  I was also wondering if getting out for walks and fresh air helps get the Effexor out of one’s system more quickly. (I really don’t know, but it seems like it might.) Btw, I have to tell you about a dream I had about you (nothing like your nightmares, thankfully), but it was kind of funny, and I think you’ll appreciate the humor in it.   Dream:  I was typing a response to one of your posts, BUT the catch was that I was totally blind (or blindfolded?) and had to spend hours replacing my hands on the "base keys" to keep my place.  Then, I would forget whether I had backspaced to correct errors (and I remembered thinking…geez this can’t have typos in it!) and, I could never re-read anything I typed.  I’m generally a good typist so this was a very frustrating dream.   It seemed like it did go on for hours.  hehehe…  I guess my posts do sometimes too. I was going to tell you about this the next day, but that was the same day that you posted a goodbye to asd message.  Weird.   Take it easy, Mark.  Hopefully you’ll keep posting (and I’ll try not to be too blind in any of my responses) <g Leah

Response:

Question:

if you are taking effexor and are thinkin of going off for whatever reason, or have thought of trying it out, please be advised that the side effects of going off can be horrendous. have watched friends go off other anti-depress. meds to try newer meds and tho they have reactions (either depression before new med kicks in, or side effects of new drug) they have not had the physical reactions we are having. spoilered for talk of physical reactions, just in case it’s too graphic…no splatteroos 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 been positive we had bone cancer, or lupus, or mono, or hepatitis and trying to move home at same time has been nearly impossible. didn’t know what was wrong. sleep all the time but not the kind that comes with depression, just horrible bone tired exhaustion. joints aching so much it is hard to move body. at all. stomach all messed up, bloated, shooting pains, no appetite. lots of mental confusion (you can snicker, is ok) but not just normal diss kind. hard to put thoughts together and if we can, can’t retain for more than 2 seconds. zip…gone into the murk. sleep is passing out and then jerking awake from aching body. head aches 24/7. thought we had tumor or stroke coming. seriously. started thinking about wanting to die just to make constant physical hurting go away. this is not us. have always been able to diss. away physical discomfort. no painkiller at dentist (don’t need it), had viral menigitis once and didn’t pay attention to hurting till it was real bad. doc freaked and put on lots of meds and sent to bed (no getting up, no moving fast or lifting, be a loaf of bread he said). this is just to say, physical is never big problem. till this effexor. literature says should go off over period of at least 2 weeks. we have been tapering for 6 weeks and effects are getting worse and worse. wasn’t until last night went to pharminfonet and read threads from ppl who went off, are going off…and found every damn symptom (except sore throat that plagues us still) mentioned by ppl. and they all are saying takes way more than 2 weeks to get off. so angry could absolutely…can’t say what we want to do cause it makes us ashamed but still want to do it. hate this drug and company that lies about horrible effects of quitting. docs are not aware of this and so don’t take it into account when prescribing. also, didn’t want to go to doctor because we knew that we would be ignored as crazy person with psychosomatic symptoms. really, honestly thought we were dying. hatehatehate. don’t need more problems. need less. has been good drug as anti-depress. but couldn’t afford it anymore and wanted to try st.johns wort (hypericum). been in the literature for 2400 years. think that is much better track record for us. hypericum has web page for anyone who is curious. anyway. rant rant. hate wyeth drug co. will avoid buying anything they produce. will prolly write a letter when brain clears. not that they give a shit. but will make us feel little better to scream at them. maybe also copy to fda, just for the heck of it. expect no response but maybe someone will notice… so, don’t know what to say. not telling anyone not to take drug. like we say, been good at what it does. but never want to feel this much physical pain again. badhorriblestupid. cause even if didn’t have to go off drug now, someday hope to not have to take meds and so it would happen sooner or later. and no one says how horrible it can be. just vague corporate lies…scum. all done. sorry about anger. is much huger than what is showing. b., geep, KAT, Susie, Rachel — For more information about this service, send e-mail to:

Response:

Thanks for posting about this!  I’ve been taking Effexor for about a year now, and always want to hear what other people’s experiences with it are.  I’ve not been in the position yet to try withdrawal, as so far it’s worked well for me as an anti-d. I hope the nasty withdrawal stuff goes away soon for you… Take good care, Kanga – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – if you are taking effexor and are thinkin of going off for whatever reason, or have thought of trying it out, please be advised that the side effects of going off can be horrendous. have watched friends go off other anti-depress. meds to try newer meds and tho they have reactions (either depression before new med kicks in, or side effects of new drug) they have not had the physical reactions we are having. spoilered for talk of physical reactions, just in case it’s too graphic…no splatteroos 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 been positive we had bone cancer, or lupus, or mono, or hepatitis and trying to move home at same time has been nearly impossible. didn’t know what was wrong. sleep all the time but not the kind that comes with depression, just horrible bone tired exhaustion. joints aching so much it is hard to move body. at all. stomach all messed up, bloated, shooting pains, no appetite. lots of mental confusion (you can snicker, is ok) but not just normal diss kind. hard to put thoughts together and if we can, can’t retain for more than 2 seconds. zip…gone into the murk. sleep is passing out and then jerking awake from aching body. head aches 24/7. thought we had tumor or stroke coming. seriously. started thinking about wanting to die just to make constant physical hurting go away. this is not us. have always been able to diss. away physical discomfort. no painkiller at dentist (don’t need it), had viral menigitis once and didn’t pay attention to hurting till it was real bad. doc freaked and put on lots of meds and sent to bed (no getting up, no moving fast or lifting, be a loaf of bread he said). this is just to say, physical is never big problem. till this effexor. literature says should go off over period of at least 2 weeks. we have been tapering for 6 weeks and effects are getting worse and worse. wasn’t until last night went to pharminfonet and read threads from ppl who went off, are going off…and found every damn symptom (except sore throat that plagues us still) mentioned by ppl. and they all are saying takes way more than 2 weeks to get off. so angry could absolutely…can’t say what we want to do cause it makes us ashamed but still want to do it. hate this drug and company that lies about horrible effects of quitting. docs are not aware of this and so don’t take it into account when prescribing. also, didn’t want to go to doctor because we knew that we would be ignored as crazy person with psychosomatic symptoms. really, honestly thought we were dying. hatehatehate. don’t need more problems. need less. has been good drug as anti-depress. but couldn’t afford it anymore and wanted to try st.johns wort (hypericum). been in the literature for 2400 years. think that is much better track record for us. hypericum has web page for anyone who is curious. anyway. rant rant. hate wyeth drug co. will avoid buying anything they produce. will prolly write a letter when brain clears. not that they give a shit. but will make us feel little better to scream at them. maybe also copy to fda, just for the heck of it. expect no response but maybe someone will notice… so, don’t know what to say. not telling anyone not to take drug. like we say, been good at what it does. but never want to feel this much physical pain again. badhorriblestupid. cause even if didn’t have to go off drug now, someday hope to not have to take meds and so it would happen sooner or later. and no one says how horrible it can be. just vague corporate lies…scum. all done. sorry about anger. is much huger than what is showing. b., geep, KAT, Susie, Rachel — For more information about this service, send e-mail to:

Response:

thank you veryvery much Pope C. just like figuring out the effexor was causing all this horriblehorrible was huge relief, having the symptoms verified and explained is most empowering. not jus using that word accidentally. it gives me power in the head to know why this is happening and how to compare it with something. better to compare it to real brother, coke drug withdrawal, than to search for as yet unpublished effexor withdrawal symptoms or see it all as similar to dread diseases. we can work better with truth. funny how that works…. we were on drug for almost (i think) two years at 300mg a day which is up at top of dose level. this may be why the crash was so awful. also, 44 years old and ectomorph (is that the skinny body type? if so, thas us) tend to run at higher speeds and crash into feeling things without protection. oh fuzzy brain. does that last make sense. it has always felt like body was not protected by nice cushion and so all physical stuff was sort of heightened, accelerated…something…and then when we finally would notice physical discomfort it was huge and our body totally unprepared.  i think i am babbling. no, no doc to tell us how to go off. just followed what we know of drug withdrawal protocol. 300mg to250 for a week, to 200 for a week, to 150 for a week, and so on, down to taking only fraction (one third down to one quarter) of tablet 3x a day down to twice a day. tried to do it long and slow and careful. think this only prolonged the hurting. once we figured out was the effexor, we just quit. get it out of body now!!! one thing we discovered in last few days is that taking ambien sleeping pill (one at night) has helped make most excruciating symptoms abate for better part of the day. maybe just prolonging the withdrawal this way, but at least we can move around and get simple day to day tasks done without thinking we are dying. maybe this is like your suggestion about painkillers. as well as letters to fda and wyeth, i am going to send letter to dr.sid wolfe at nader founded group called health research group. used to work for organization that housed hrg and think sid will be interested. can i send him copy of your post (minus all identifiers) as it is good foil to my venting about symptoms. gives to hurting (amorphous) a basis in fact. docs like facts. will only do if you say is ok. thank you again for this information. you will never realize how validating and helpful it was. we still feel crappy but at least we know why and how. knowledge really is power. thank you all of Pope C. b. and all of coney s. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : if you are taking effexor and are thinkin of going off for whatever : reason, or have thought of trying it out, please be advised that the : side effects of going off can be horrendous. have watched friends go off : other anti-depress. meds to try newer meds and tho they have reactions : (either depression before new med kicks in, or side effects of new drug) : they have not had the physical reactions we are having. : spoilered for talk of physical reactions, just in case it’s too : graphic…no splatteroos : 1 : 2 : 3 : 4 : 5 : 6 : 7 : 8 : 9 : 0 : 1 : 2 : 3 : been positive we had bone cancer, or lupus, or mono, or hepatitis and : trying to move home at same time has been nearly impossible. didn’t know : what was wrong. sleep all the time but not the kind that comes with : depression, just horrible bone tired exhaustion. joints aching so much : it is hard to move body. at all. stomach all messed up, bloated, : shooting pains, no appetite. lots of mental confusion (you can snicker, : is ok) but not just normal diss kind. hard to put thoughts together and : if we can, can’t retain for more than 2 seconds. zip…gone into the : murk. sleep is passing out and then jerking awake from aching body. head : aches 24/7. thought we had tumor or stroke coming. seriously. started : thinking about wanting to die just to make constant physical hurting go : away. Woof.  That sounds much worse than the "average" withdrawal from effexor, but they’re usually pretty bad from what I hear.  Basically you are going through the equivalent of "speed" or cocaine withdrawal, cold-turkey.  I researched Effexor for a friend last year. Here’s what’s going on, if it would help to know (I wrote something similar for asar last year):    The SSRIs are called that because they are *Selective* serotonin    reuptake inhibitors.  They don’t affect too much else, at least on    purpose.    Effexor is *not* an SSRI; it’s an SRI, but it’s also a dopamine    reuptake inhibitor.  This means it increases the dopamine levels in    your system, which can boost your mood and is why it’s such an    effective anti-depressant, but it means it’s also capable of    becoming physically addictive in the same way that speed or cocaine    are.  (Those are both dopamine-mimics, in the sense that they    stimulate the dopamine receptors in the brain.) Effectively you’re going through the equivalent of a really bad and prolonged amphetamine or cocaine withdrawal.  Yours seems to be worse than usual.  Maybe it will help to know this, I don’t know. Oh yeah, the SSRIs and SRIs all raise the pain threshold – SSRIs are now being prescribed for cancer victims along with conventional painkillers – so going off the SRI component presumably lowers it. That’s probably making the physical pain worse too. [...] : literature says should go off over period of at least 2 weeks. we have : been tapering for 6 weeks and effects are getting worse and worse. Ugh.  They will wear off eventually but it’s awful that it’s going on so long. : wasn’t until last night went to pharminfonet and read threads from ppl : who went off, are going off…and found every damn symptom (except sore : throat that plagues us still) mentioned by ppl. and they all are saying : takes way more than 2 weeks to get off. Yeah, that’s what I warned my friend last year. : so angry could : absolutely…can’t say what we want to do cause it makes us ashamed but : still want to do it. hate this drug and company that lies about horrible : effects of quitting. docs are not aware of this and so don’t take it : into account when prescribing. The drug industry is all excited about Effexor, because it’s the first in potentially a whole new class of phenethylamine-based SRIs.  We can hope that all of them don’t have this kind of effect.  (Phenethylamines are one of the two major families of chemicals from which most psychedelic drugs are derived: mescaline, MDA, X or "Ecstasy", etc. Most SSRIs are distantly related to the other such family, tryptamines.) Unfortunately too many doctors don’t read anything but the PDR for drug info, even though it’s based entirely on info provided by the drug manufacturers.  (And it tends to be updated more slowly than other sources.) I still use it as a source, but I try to look at other sources if I can, and I always do my own research on any drug I’m taking. Did your doctor taper you down very gradually, like they’re supposed to (if they keep up on the literature) or did they cut down the dosage for you more rapidly from full dosage to almost nothing?  (Either because they didn’t know or because of side-effects that were too dangerous to taper down slowly.) Talk to doctor about withdrawal effects, but if they won’t take you seriously, you might try:   1) asking for conventional painkillers to help you get through it;   2) ask if you can start phasing in another SSRI during the      withdrawal (this might not be safe due to untested interactions);   3) drink lots of coffee during the withdrawal period (seriously –      coffee stimulates dopamine release and might somewhat reduce the      effects.) This is purely my own weird advice, not endorsed by any      doctror. : also, didn’t want to go to doctor because we knew that we would be : ignored as crazy person with psychosomatic symptoms. really, honestly : thought we were dying. hatehatehate. don’t need more problems. need : less. I know what you mean… : anyway. rant rant. hate wyeth drug co. will avoid buying anything they : produce. will prolly write a letter when brain clears. not that they : give a shit. but will make us feel little better to scream at them. : maybe also copy to fda, just for the heck of it. expect no response but : maybe someone will notice… It’s a good idea.  Eventually, with enough letters like that, the FDA may force them to at least add more warnings to the PDR and package inserts, which is pretty much all that a lot of doctors read. : so, don’t know what to say. not telling anyone not to take drug. like we : say, been good at what it does. but never want to feel this much : physical pain again. badhorriblestupid. cause even if didn’t have to go : off drug now, someday hope to not have to take meds and so it would : happen sooner or later. and no one says how horrible it can be. just : vague corporate lies…scum. Yep.  That’s corporate America – or at this point, the world.  Most corporations are severely dysfunctional and in denial. <1/2 g : all done. sorry about anger. is much huger than what is showing. Anger is a feeling.  It’s fine to be angry.  You did not use it as an excuse to behave badly towards anyone, at least that I can see, so there is no need to apologize.  Thank you for

… read more »

Response:

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, I’m a new poster to this list and I am hoping that someone out there can give me some advice on Effexor. I take anti-depressants for chronic pain.  I just recently switched from Serzone to Effexor.  The Serzone was working well, but I was having trouble concentrating. I have been taking the Effexor for two weeks.  When I first started taking it, I was taking 75 mg. per day, but I had terrible side effects.  I had panic attacks, blurred vision so bad I couldn’t drive, twitching/shaking, and more. I’ve cut the dosage down to 37.5 but I’m still having some sleep disturbances and difficulty achieving orgasm.  Other than that, I’m actually feeling pretty good on it?  Does anybody have any input on this? Or had any experiences with side effects?

Been on it about 9-10 months.  Have had mostly good to say about it (but the first couple of days were tough).  The side effects have waned considerably without excessive loss of efficacy.  I still don’t sleep well though unless I take my nighly Ambien.  I don’t know if that particularly side effect will ever go away.  Given that I already had problems with insomnia… But by and large it’s been great for me.  The only times that it seems to not keep me from slipping are hormone upheaval times and I’d have to guess by your address name that this won’t be a problem for you.  (too much anyway). Take care and good luck, KCat — For more information about this service, send e-mail to:

Response:

I take anti-depressants for chronic pain.  I just recently switched from Serzone to Effexor.  The Serzone was working well, but I was having trouble concentrating. I have been taking the Effexor for two weeks.  When I first started taking it, I was taking 75 mg. per day, but I had terrible side effects.  I had panic attacks, blurred vision so bad I couldn’t drive, twitching/shaking, and more.

I am currently taking Effexor myself at 150mg a day with no severe problems. It took me over two weeks to adjust to it though.  The very first day I took the medication was not very pleasant, as I recall.  I had all kinds of side effects for the first two weeks.  These side effects grew less with time. I’ve cut the dosage down to 37.5 but I’m still having some sleep disturbances and difficulty achieving orgasm.  Other than that, I’m actually feeling pretty good on it?  Does anybody have any input on this? Or had any experiences with side effects?

Effexor can cause both of the problems you describe.  In my case, my last dosage is at 4 PM so I do not have problems sleeping.  Maybe you should consult your doctor over the times you take the medication.  Effexor can cause anorgasmia and other anomalies of that kind (I know!), but except in severe cases this should not be a severe problem (in some ways it can be viewed as an advantage!). If you need more details feel free to mail me at (remove the —-)

Response:

I have been taking the Effexor for two weeks.  When I first started taking it, I was taking 75 mg. per day, but I had terrible side effects.  

My doctor started me out at 37.5 per day for a few days, then I went up to 75. Now, I’m at 150. Of the four ADs I’ve been on, Effexor has probably been the least annoying. I’ve cut the dosage down to 37.5 but I’m still having some sleep disturbances and difficulty achieving orgasm.  

Effexor tends to be stimulating. My pdoc had me go with the last dose about 4 PM and that helped. (Actually, as long as I don’t take it immediately before going to bed.) Other than that, I’m actually feeling pretty good on it

Charlie’s Sneaker Pages: http://sneakers.pair.com/ Best Value in Airplanes: http://www.boeing.com/

Response:

Hi, I’m a new poster to this list and I am hoping that someone out there can give me some advice on Effexor. I take anti-depressants for chronic pain.  I just recently switched from Serzone to Effexor.  The Serzone was working well, but I was having trouble concentrating. I have been taking the Effexor for two weeks.  When I first started taking it, I was taking 75 mg. per day, but I had terrible side effects.  I had panic attacks, blurred vision so bad I couldn’t drive, twitching/shaking, and more.   I’ve cut the dosage down to 37.5 but I’m still having some sleep disturbances and difficulty achieving orgasm.  Other than that, I’m actually feeling pretty good on it?  Does anybody have any input on this? Or had any experiences with side effects?

Response:

Question:

Please help with any advice that you may have. 5 years ago I was diagnosed with depression. Have taken Prozac, Effexor and now Serzone. I have a gut feeling that I have been misdiagnosed and actually suffer from PD or a combination of the two. Although I am much better now, I feel that I still suffer from PA’s from time to time ranging from mild to severe. I don’t trust my Psychiatrist and am really fed up with only being part of the whole person I know I can be. Has anyone out there been in the same situation and if so, what did you do? Hopeful, Gary P.S. E-mail responses preferred.

Response:

: : I don’t trust my Psychiatrist and am really fed up with only being part of : the whole person I know I can be. Has anyone out there been in the same : situation and if so, what did you do? Hi Gary, Sounds like this would be a good time to consult another psychiatrist. Pick up the phone and call your local major metropolitan hospitals to ask if they have an anxiety clinic or psychiatric staff familiar with anxiety and panic disorders. Make an appointment and get another opinion on your case. Feel free to post the group or e-mail me for further info or support.                                         Best Wishes,                                         Arthur

Response:

I don’t trust my Psychiatrist and am really fed up with only being part of the whole person I know I can be. Has anyone out there been in the same situation and if so, what did you do?

Hello Gary I would think it’s a second opinion that you’re looking for. If all else fails you could treat yourself. It will mean a great deal of reading, research and being honest with yourself but it is (IMHO) a common misconception that expert guidance is necessary in all cases. Have faith in yourself and your own judgement, even if it’s let you down in the past. If you seek further professional treatment try to play a more active role – take charge. Hopeful,

Stay that way, hope is all that you need. Best of luck — ROB…  "high mileage but reliable!"

Response:

Question:

Jeff S’s suggestion re: lactaid (for milk) sounds like it might be helpful to me since I have developed a great liking for large portions of cereal and milk in the morning.  The ceral alone can also be th culprit. Howver, in addition to food, I have in the past, posted a note that the various antidepressants (paxil, prozac, effexor, ……and others of that class) that I have used for the past few years, ALL seem to be capable of inflicting great damage on the passengers of a subway car after I  have ingested them.  Beano doesn’t seem to help that class of gas. Simethacone is a moderate help if taken with a meal or the medication. I think that the best results I get (except for abstaining from food) arew obtained with a combination of symethacone and activated charcoal. Is this what we call an effemeral(sp?) topic? vic Victor Levadi, lev…@winlab.rutgers.edu

Response:

Jeff, Lactaid is, or at least was, available as just the liquid enzyme that you add to the milk of your choice.  It needs 12 – 24 hours to break down all the milk sugar (lactose).  I used to use this before the treated milk was available.  I think I bought it at a drugstore. Carol — Carol Soltau cms…@ccmail.monsanto.com

Response:

Howard N. Hughes (H_Hughes%DIRNET.CCIT.ARIZONA….@taunivm.tau.ac.il) wrote: : I (almost) hate to bring this up, but since I’ve had MS, I’ve had almost : chronic flatulence.

In <3kdbit$…@news.cais.com

wil…@cais3.cais.com (Mark Wilson) writes: I too get more gas, but I believe its from the meds. I take,i.e. baclofen, diazapam, betaseron. The real bummer is I no longer have the natural push to expel it. So its Tums, Tums, and more Tums. Kathy

Pills often contain lactose and many people, like myself, are lactose intolerant. Tip of the week: blow your nose when you need to expel it. Aapo Halko

Response:

-

Living in Mexican Food territory I can tell you that Beano works.

-

Bill in New Mexico

And if you gave up and gave it to the dog instead they got Beano for dogs now too. John Hare  * 1st 2.00b #5276 * Ye who shall,so shall Ye that who!

Response:

JOHN HARE (commstar!john.h…@commstar.com) wrote:

: -

Living in Mexican Food territory I can tell you that Beano works.

: -

Bill in New Mexico

: And if you gave up and gave it to the dog instead they got Beano for : dogs now too. : John Hare :  * 1st 2.00b #5276 * Ye who shall,so shall Ye that who! — ————————————————   as long as the subject is gas, have you ever tried BEANO? I just got a free sample and paln to myself, I haven’t been able to find any solutions to this as far as Tums, Roalaids, Malox and such. But for  all who like to try this –CALL 1-800-257-8650 they will send a free sample plus cents off coupons just for trying. Hope this can help someone,  Kathy

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

JOHN HARE (commstar!john.h…@commstar.com) wrote: : – Living in Mexican Food territory I can tell you that Beano works. : – Bill in New Mexico : And if you gave up and gave it to the dog instead they got Beano for : dogs now too. : John Hare :  * 1st 2.00b #5276 * Ye who shall,so shall Ye that who! — ————————————————  as long as the subject is gas, have you ever tried BEANO? I just got a free sample and paln to myself, I haven’t been able to find any solutions to this as far as Tums, Roalaids, Malox and such. But for  all who like to try this –CALL 1-800-257-8650 they will send a free sample plus cents off coupons just for trying. Hope this can help someone,  Kathy Dear Posters,

                 PHEWWWWW!!!! This subject stinks. David

Response:

Kathy and Bill mentioned BEANO as a real help in reducing gas (which it is!). But just this morning while browsing through either my Butter Buds or Healthmark cookbooks, I ran across a note that said that milk (lactose) can cause considerable gas due to insufficient amount of the right enzymes. Since I’ve been drinking/using a lot more skim or 1% milk lately, I’ve been walking around like a methane factory (let’s not get technical; methane comes from other organic sources including rotting vegetation and pig shit). Anyway–cutting to the chase–the book mentioned LACTAID. Now most of you probably knew this anyway, but it does the same thing for milk that BEANO does for fibers! Knock me over with a feather!! I’d seen it for years but just assumed it was a milk substitute like soy milk (ick) or goat’s milk (pretty good when you get used to it). It is supposed to be very effective also. Well, between BEANO and LACTAID I may once again be permitted to use phone booths, mix with polite company, and not have to practice looking innocent. Well, except for the cats who simply get up and exit the room at speeds inversely proportional to how close they were. Ta. Jeff S. (even if my style is a tipoff, there are now at least 5 or more Jeffs scurrying around this net–should have registered the name as a trademark to cut down on confusion)

Response: