Question:

Aztek hands down?

Response:

Jeez, I heard someone bot one !

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Aztek hands down?

Response:

Aztek hands down?

‘58 Buick Limited ‘59 Olds

Response:

That aztek reminds me of what a scaled-down version of the Family Truckster might look like……wonder if they have the Pea Green color

Response:

the Olds Achieva

Response:

the Olds Achieva

Oh, they are not all that attractive, but I would not say they were the UGLIEST thing GM ever came up with.  With all due respect to the folks who like ‘em I had an Achieva on rental for a couple of days about 3 years ago.  A real nothingburger of a car.  But no, I don’t think it was that ugly…

Response:

No question, it’s the Aztec. A GM screw-up of global thermo-nuclear proportions. I just hope that among those 2000+ GM executives who are being forced by the General to drive the things around Detroit are numbered the idiot-laden committees that approved the thing for production. It makes the Edsel Ranger look tasteful and refined. Yuck! — – GRL "When someone annoys you, remember that it takes 42 muscles to frown, but only 4 muscles to extend your arm and smack them on the back of the head."

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Aztek hands down?

Response:

That aztek reminds me of what a scaled-down version of the Family Truckster might look like……wonder if they have the Pea Green color

I think you CAN get a Aztek in metallic pee.

Response:

The Achieva really looks good nowadays. neat profile. at first i hated the design. now after a few years, they look neat.

Response:

No question, it’s the Aztec. A GM screw-up of global thermo-nuclear proportions. I just hope that among those 2000+ GM executives who are being forced by the General to drive the things around Detroit are numbered the idiot-laden committees that approved the thing for production. It makes the Edsel Ranger look tasteful and refined.

I find myself wondering: how long a run is GM gonna make of those before closing up production? You mentioned the Edsel Ranger.  Well, the Edsel got a lot of mocking in the press by various columnists, TV personalities, and all that.  I have heard no such similar mocking of the Aztek. Does anyone have any sales figures on that beast?

Response:

I find myself wondering: how long a run is GM gonna make of those before closing up production?

You have to wonder, especially with vehicle sales going in the crapper as of recent.. As strange as they are, however, I’ve seen more then a few driving around here locally, so apparently _someone_ is buying them.. Personally, I like the front end, could live with the side view, but the rear-end is just too bizzare for even me, and I’m pretty forgiving when it comes to "Different" vehicles.. Take the new Impala, for instance..  When it first came out everybody screamed bloody murder about the rear taillights..   I never "Hated" them, persay, but they did have to grow on me, and now I envy the car quite alot, and the fact that the plant here in Oshawa can’t make them quickly enough speaks volumes towards the fact that they are selling like hotcakes….   Now, if only I could afford one.. — Mark – Oshawa, Ontario, Canada Chevy Astro / GMC Safari Message Board! Click Below! http://pub37.ezboard.com/bchevyastroandgmcsafari

Response:

Hands down is right! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Aztek hands down?

Response:

……and GM scraped Olds with decent looking cars! RJL

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – No question, it’s the Aztec. A GM screw-up of global thermo-nuclear proportions. I just hope that among those 2000+ GM executives who are being forced by the General to drive the things around Detroit are numbered the idiot-laden committees that approved the thing for production. It makes the Edsel Ranger look tasteful and refined. Yuck! — – GRL "When someone annoys you, remember that it takes 42 muscles to frown, but only 4 muscles to extend your arm and smack them on the back of the head." Aztek hands down?

Response:

…….and GM scraped Olds with decent looking cars!

Decent to very nice, and that were not selling.  

Response:

That aztek reminds me of what a scaled-down version of the Family Truckster might look like……wonder if they have the Pea Green color

More like a kid’s playhouse on wheels…

Response:

That aztek reminds me of what a scaled-down version of the Family Truckster might look like……wonder if they have the Pea Green color More like a kid’s playhouse on wheels…

When I was a youngster, they had these big compacting trash trucks running around in Los Angeles.  They were White trucks, and the compactor unit was Leach.  When I first saw an Aztek from the back, it brought back the picture in my mind of those trucks.

Response:

……and GM scraped Olds with decent looking cars!

Debatable..  But decent looking or not, they were poor sellers. Olds was nothing but a Cancer for GM..  It’s not something they needed to keep around. — Mark – Oshawa, Ontario, Canada Chevy Astro / GMC Safari Message Board! Click Below! http://pub37.ezboard.com/bchevyastroandgmcsafari

Response:

Debatable..  But decent looking or not, they were poor sellers. Olds was nothing but a Cancer for GM..  It’s not something they needed to keep around.

Hmmm, this is true.  I’m 24 years old and a die-hard Oldsmobile fan.  But, as an Economics major, I have to agree it was a good idea to kill Oldsmobile as a division.  I’ve watched the auto industry for several years now.  I’ve noticed that Buick seems to be trying to change it’s stodgy-traditional image of being a "old person’s" car.  Here you have the latest array of concept cars and the new Rendezvous "SUV" aka minivan with a defined front end.  If Buick is not able to change it’s image, I can only see it taking the highway to auto heaven with Oldsmobile in a few years.  I mean GM is obviously moving towards two main divisions, Chevrolet-Chevrolet Trucks and Pontiac-GMC.  Cadillac and Saturn both have their niche in the marketplace that is well defined.  Unfortunately, GM has been very slow at meeting customers’ demands and the import competition.  So, it only makes sense that traditional brands such as Oldsmobile and Buick be euthanized. Now, I mentioned that I am an Oldsmobile fan.  So, IMHO, it will be missed.  I thought the Olds cars were heading in the right direction design-wise.  Now that Olds is dead, I really have to question my loyalty to GM.  I mean, what kind of management do you have when you take one of the top selling American nameplates to demise in less than two decades.  Then again, there is GM’s SUV obsession.  Most people would agree that due to rising insurance rates and gas prices as unstable as a southern California faultline, the SUV craze has seen it’s zenith.  Unless GM can find a way to dump the tortoise attitude at meeting the customers’ demands, it’s market share will only continue to dwindle. Anyway, I will get off my soap box now.  I just had to vent. Take care and God bless, Jeremy

Response:

Why not just keep Cadillacs, Chevrolet, Park Avenues, Grand Ams and Prix’s. Everything else is duplication or doesn’t sell.  Have different handling/tire packages available on Chevrolets to please people who want handling or floating.  Market share is going to go down to maybe 25%, they couldn’t even figure out how to market their best driving car line.  Current new Olds owners for their next car probably won’t go for boyracer Pontiacs or floating Buicks, but they may use their $1500 vouchers for Chevys if they need to save the cash instead of getting that Maxima, Jetta, or Accord they really want to get.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ……and GM scraped Olds with decent looking cars! Debatable..  But decent looking or not, they were poor sellers. Olds was nothing but a Cancer for GM..  It’s not something they needed to keep around. — Mark – Oshawa, Ontario, Canada Chevy Astro / GMC Safari Message Board! Click Below! http://pub37.ezboard.com/bchevyastroandgmcsafari

Response:

That aztek reminds me of what a scaled-down version of the Family Truckster might look like……wonder if they have the Pea Green color More like a kid’s playhouse on wheels…

More like a scaled-down municipal trash truck. DS

Response:

Nah, 1967 Bel Air, I had one of those battleships. Yeesh!!! About as long as a football field, no shape. The Aztec is not my favorite, but I don’t think that it is that bad. Personnaly, I think the Ford Focus is about the ugliest thing on the road now. Aztek hands down?

– See ya!!! Danman

Response:

I agree, I think you will see automobile manufacturers start to streamline their lineups. I mean, what is the use in making the same vehicle with minor cosmetic changes and selling it under 5 different names (import and domestic names I might add). It just doesn’t make good financial sense to do that. With so many automobile manufacturers getting in bed together (Ford, Mazda, Nissan) (GM, Honda, Isuzu, Toyota) (Chrystler, Mitsubishi), brands have really become a thing of the past. We kinda have generic vehicles now that are some sort of bastardization of several different manufacturers. I think you would be hard pressed to find a car true to it’s name anymore. I have a Nissan Pickup. It was built in a Ford plant with parts supplied by Nissan that were made in Tennessee. Eventually, I think you may see GM be reduced to Chevrolet, Cadillac, and maybe Pontiac. They could go after the Buick/ Olds market with some lower line Cadillac’s. It seems as if they are putting all of the performance vehicles under the Pontiac flag, and Chevy is going after the daily driver/ economical vehicles. Chrystler is killing Plymouth. I expect that it is only a matter of time before Ford kills Mercury. Certainly this trend will continue over the next 10 years. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Debatable..  But decent looking or not, they were poor sellers. Olds was nothing but a Cancer for GM..  It’s not something they needed to keep around. Hmmm, this is true.  I’m 24 years old and a die-hard Oldsmobile fan.  But, as an Economics major, I have to agree it was a good idea to kill Oldsmobile as a division.  I’ve watched the auto industry for several years now.  I’ve noticed that Buick seems to be trying to change it’s stodgy-traditional image of being a "old person’s" car.  Here you have the latest array of concept cars and the new Rendezvous "SUV" aka minivan with a defined front end.  If Buick is not able to change it’s image, I can only see it taking the highway to auto heaven with Oldsmobile in a few years.  I mean GM is obviously moving towards two main divisions, Chevrolet-Chevrolet Trucks and Pontiac-GMC.  Cadillac and Saturn both have their niche in the marketplace that is well defined.  Unfortunately, GM has been very slow at meeting customers’ demands and the import competition.  So, it only makes sense that traditional brands such as Oldsmobile and Buick be euthanized. Now, I mentioned that I am an Oldsmobile fan.  So, IMHO, it will be missed.  I thought the Olds cars were heading in the right direction design-wise.  Now that Olds is dead, I really have to question my loyalty to GM.  I mean, what kind of management do you have when you take one of the top selling American nameplates to demise in less than two decades.  Then again, there is GM’s SUV obsession.  Most people would agree that due to rising insurance rates and gas prices as unstable as a southern California faultline, the SUV craze has seen it’s zenith.  Unless GM can find a way to dump the tortoise attitude at meeting the customers’ demands, it’s market share will only continue to dwindle. Anyway, I will get off my soap box now.  I just had to vent. Take care and God bless, Jeremy

– See ya!!! Danman

Response:

Awesome on the inside,   but ugly on the outside.! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Aztek hands down?

Response:

I first time I saw one (aside from a dealer lot-many in stock) was on a return trip from the airport after dropping my brother off for an early morning return flight the day after Christmas. It was still dark and I wondered what the ugly vehicle was ahead of me. Up to this point my focus on the Astek being ugly was the front end. Well the rear end deserves its portion of criticism also. This is the only time I have seen an Astek on the road. Hopefully the Buick version will look better. BTW, I do like some other designs most others dislike. I liked the 96-99 Taurus and the new Maxima and even like its rear end styling. Dave – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Aztek hands down?

Response:

Aztek

I dunno. The new Monte Carlos and Impalas look pretty goofy. "It’s a crazy world, have fun with it." -Jerry Springer "Remember, when someone annoys you that it takes 42 muscles to frown, but it only takes 4 muscles to extend your arm and whack them in the head." – unknown What is a Team Goon? http://www.teamgoon.com My Personal page: http://teamgoon.i85.net FORMAL NOTICE: unsolicited commercial email will be read at a charge of $500 per item. Harvesting of my email address, and receipt of such email shall be considered to constitute acceptance of contract, and will be billed immediately.

Response:

Question:

…from 3 years of Anafranil and Prozac.  Excuse this garbled message (probably a result of the damage, but I am so depressed right now because I know *exactly* what is wrong, but I am powerless to do anything about it. My brain is permanently fried from that med.  Here is the damage I notice: 1). Word retrieval – I can "picture" the word I want to say but I can’t find the word to use. Often, I have to substitute other, less efficient words to express what I’m trying to say. 2.) Thought retention – My mind just feels foggy and thoughts slip away very easily.  For example, when talking to myself I frequently have trouble recalling a sequence of thoughts from just a few seconds ago. It slips away so easily. My thoughts contain only about 2-3 words or "chunks" (at most). Beyond that I forget very easily.  Therefore, I lose the "word base" from which to form more complex thoughts. Everyone, please skip to the bottom if this post bores you. It is the absolute truth of my experience with SSRIs, and right now I’m feeling very frustrated at what is happening.. I’ve BEEN OFF MEDICATION FOR OVER A YEAR AND MY COGNITIVE ABILITIES HAVE NOT IMPROVED. Most of the damage (I feel) is subtle.. My doctor doesn’t believe there is damage. I have posted here once a long time ago and some people thought I was just an antimedication fanatic of the school of scientology.  Genimi from Vegas (don’t know if she still posts here) and "indiferent" were among those who believed it could/might happen. I believe I might have an oversensitivity in my brain that may have caused the damage to be GREATER than most people.. or maybe it is genetic. I do not know.  All I can tell you is my experience only, I have no scientific proof, all I’m saying is that I notice these effects LONG AFTER QUITTING, and I never HAD THESE PROBLEMS PRIOR TO THE MEDS.   Most of the effects are subtle, so this post may actually sound halfway intelligent. But if you read more closely, the word choice is very limited.. I can’t even explain the damage I feel because I’ve lost the rich, complex and fluid linguistic capacity to express it.   To have brain damage and KNOW it, but be unable to express it except in an adolescent fashion is a double-whammy to me.  I know this post is also disjointed and I use the word "I" too much.   That is also a sign of the damage, although no one on this board would know because I’ve never written here prior to the damage.   I can’t even convince my docs that this damage has really occurred, because I no longer have the verbal eloquence to express myself in a reasoned, intelligent way. I just sound hysterical and histrionical… as though these are just my fears and nothing else.  BUT I TELL YOU, I FEEL THE DAMAGE AND I’M ANGRY BECAUSE I DON’T KNOW HOW TO WORD IT IN QUITE A WAY THAT EXPRESSES HOW IT FEELS TO STRUGGLE WITH PERMANENT BRAIN DAMAGE.  I FEEL AS IF I’VE BEEN IN A CAR ACCIDENT, the damage feels very diffuse, as if my brain is a sweater that has gone through the dryer too many times – frayed synapses and torn connections.   I know this post also sounds very black and white, because I’ve lost my ability to employ my formally rich and subtle grasp of the English language to convey my point across… all I’m doing here is rambling and whining.  I think I’ve also lost some of my organizational ability (because my short-term memory is fried) so I’m sorry if this post is winding, convoluted and very horribly worded.   Also (I feel) Anafranil and Prozac have also given me acquired ADD (Attention Deficit Disorder). Sorry this post is so disorganized.  I can no longer express myself and I have trouble remembering where I am in a thought and where my thoughts are leading (if these are in fact thoughts at all!). The most frightening damaged I’ve noticed from the meds is that I found an old diary of mine (written 5 years ago PRIOR to the meds) and I’m amazed that some of the words used were even part of my vocabulary.  I no longer have the retention to recall those words or their context of usage.  SORRY IF I’M USING CAPS HERE BECAUSE MY WORDS NO LONGER HAVE ANY IMPACT AND I AM UNABLE TO EXPRESS MYSELF EXCEPT LIKE A TEENAGER. This is not to scare people off meds. Some people will need them for life because their symptoms are so severe. I’m just talking from my own experience with one (Anafranil), and am expressing my frustration and sadness from the loss(es) I’ve experienced more than anything.. I also notice a permanent emotional flattening (or dulling) that I can’t explain either.  This is very scary to me also, because I’m only 35 and have many more years to live.   I am almost certain that if this gets worse over time, and the damage is compounded with natural deterioration from aging, I will no longer want to be alive.     I am a shell of my former self, and am struggling with these subtle cognitive effects THAT HAVE NOT LET UP EVEN AFTER OVER A YEAR BEING OFF THE ANAFRANIL AND PROZAC. So obviously something has happened, but I don’t know what.  Obviously my psychiatrist won’t tell me anything because THAT’S WHAT HE IS PAID TO DO – PRESCRIBE MEDICATION!  Most of his education (I’m sure) is funded by the drug companies.. and I’m sure he rationalizes his prescribing of this brain damaging shit by thinking "Oh, well if she kills herself or something, then I can’t say I didn’t try my best to help her."   No doubt, SSRI’s and other meds have some positive effects. The *only* positive effect I’ve noticed is my lows aren’t quite as low as they used to be. That’s about it.  Other than that, I’m a brain damaged vegetable who can no longer carry on a conversation. THERE ARE NO THOUGHTS IN MY HEAD ANYMORE.  I struggle to write this post.  I’m sure it is longwinded as I’ve completely lost my sense of verbal precision. I hope someone who has had the same experience can post. I feel so alone. patricia

Response:

Hi Patricia.. I dont know how long ago you posted but people here do now take seriously the side and after effects of medications.. Many here suffer from such and are dealing with them.. Off the bat I have to say whatever you think.. your post is intelligent..  coherent and extremely articulate..not at all as you imagine it to be Gemini does still post here and I am sure will respond. there are many here who have had or are having similar experiences so you dont have to feel so alone .. It is usenet. so you could just ignore the occasional scienos under the beds post. Im sorry you are struggling with such problems and fears but you are by no means on your own. regards, Bob

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – …from 3 years of Anafranil and Prozac.  Excuse this garbled message (probably a result of the damage, but I am so depressed right now because I know *exactly* what is wrong, but I am powerless to do anything about it. My brain is permanently fried from that med.  Here is the damage I notice: 1). Word retrieval – I can "picture" the word I want to say but I can’t find the word to use. Often, I have to substitute other, less efficient words to express what I’m trying to say. 2.) Thought retention – My mind just feels foggy and thoughts slip away very easily.  For example, when talking to myself I frequently have trouble recalling a sequence of thoughts from just a few seconds ago. It slips away so easily. My thoughts contain only about 2-3 words or "chunks" (at most). Beyond that I forget very easily.  Therefore, I lose the "word base" from which to form more complex thoughts. Everyone, please skip to the bottom if this post bores you. It is the absolute truth of my experience with SSRIs, and right now I’m feeling very frustrated at what is happening.. I’ve BEEN OFF MEDICATION FOR OVER A YEAR AND MY COGNITIVE ABILITIES HAVE NOT IMPROVED. Most of the damage (I feel) is subtle.. My doctor doesn’t believe there is damage. I have posted here once a long time ago and some people thought I was just an antimedication fanatic of the school of scientology.  Genimi from Vegas (don’t know if she still posts here) and "indiferent" were among those who believed it could/might happen. I believe I might have an oversensitivity in my brain that may have caused the damage to be GREATER than most people.. or maybe it is genetic. I do not know.  All I can tell you is my experience only, I have no scientific proof, all I’m saying is that I notice these effects LONG AFTER QUITTING, and I never HAD THESE PROBLEMS PRIOR TO THE MEDS. Most of the effects are subtle, so this post may actually sound halfway intelligent. But if you read more closely, the word choice is very limited.. I can’t even explain the damage I feel because I’ve lost the rich, complex and fluid linguistic capacity to express it. To have brain damage and KNOW it, but be unable to express it except in an adolescent fashion is a double-whammy to me.  I know this post is also disjointed and I use the word "I" too much.   That is also a sign of the damage, although no one on this board would know because I’ve never written here prior to the damage. I can’t even convince my docs that this damage has really occurred, because I no longer have the verbal eloquence to express myself in a reasoned, intelligent way. I just sound hysterical and histrionical… as though these are just my fears and nothing else.  BUT I TELL YOU, I FEEL THE DAMAGE AND I’M ANGRY BECAUSE I DON’T KNOW HOW TO WORD IT IN QUITE A WAY THAT EXPRESSES HOW IT FEELS TO STRUGGLE WITH PERMANENT BRAIN DAMAGE.  I FEEL AS IF I’VE BEEN IN A CAR ACCIDENT, the damage feels very diffuse, as if my brain is a sweater that has gone through the dryer too many times – frayed synapses and torn connections. I know this post also sounds very black and white, because I’ve lost my ability to employ my formally rich and subtle grasp of the English language to convey my point across… all I’m doing here is rambling and whining.  I think I’ve also lost some of my organizational ability (because my short-term memory is fried) so I’m sorry if this post is winding, convoluted and very horribly worded. Also (I feel) Anafranil and Prozac have also given me acquired ADD (Attention Deficit Disorder). Sorry this post is so disorganized.  I can no longer express myself and I have trouble remembering where I am in a thought and where my thoughts are leading (if these are in fact thoughts at all!). The most frightening damaged I’ve noticed from the meds is that I found an old diary of mine (written 5 years ago PRIOR to the meds) and I’m amazed that some of the words used were even part of my vocabulary.  I no longer have the retention to recall those words or their context of usage.  SORRY IF I’M USING CAPS HERE BECAUSE MY WORDS NO LONGER HAVE ANY IMPACT AND I AM UNABLE TO EXPRESS MYSELF EXCEPT LIKE A TEENAGER. This is not to scare people off meds. Some people will need them for life because their symptoms are so severe. I’m just talking from my own experience with one (Anafranil), and am expressing my frustration and sadness from the loss(es) I’ve experienced more than anything.. I also notice a permanent emotional flattening (or dulling) that I can’t explain either.  This is very scary to me also, because I’m only 35 and have many more years to live. I am almost certain that if this gets worse over time, and the damage is compounded with natural deterioration from aging, I will no longer want to be alive. I am a shell of my former self, and am struggling with these subtle cognitive effects THAT HAVE NOT LET UP EVEN AFTER OVER A YEAR BEING OFF THE ANAFRANIL AND PROZAC. So obviously something has happened, but I don’t know what.  Obviously my psychiatrist won’t tell me anything because THAT’S WHAT HE IS PAID TO DO – PRESCRIBE MEDICATION!  Most of his education (I’m sure) is funded by the drug companies.. and I’m sure he rationalizes his prescribing of this brain damaging shit by thinking "Oh, well if she kills herself or something, then I can’t say I didn’t try my best to help her." No doubt, SSRI’s and other meds have some positive effects. The *only* positive effect I’ve noticed is my lows aren’t quite as low as they used to be. That’s about it.  Other than that, I’m a brain damaged vegetable who can no longer carry on a conversation. THERE ARE NO THOUGHTS IN MY HEAD ANYMORE.  I struggle to write this post.  I’m sure it is longwinded as I’ve completely lost my sense of verbal precision. I hope someone who has had the same experience can post. I feel so alone. patricia

Response:

Dear Patricia, I have a background in writing — I have also up to this past June 2001 been on a variety of psychiatric drugs… such as Lithium , Seroquel, Tompamax and Carbamazepine.  I did find taking this combination of cocktail… to be rather disturbing in respect to my language and cognitive abilities.  When attempts were made to speak — often I had problems bringing out the exact wordage I wanted to use. However since June, I have gradually taken myself off of all of the above medications and as of tomorrow will be going back onto just 100mg of Topamax, I have otherwise found myself to better concentrate since being off of the above mentioned cocktail combination. In respect to your message here.  I had found no difficulty in understanding what you were trying to express…. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – …from 3 years of Anafranil and Prozac.  Excuse this garbled message (probably a result of the damage, but I am so depressed right now because I know *exactly* what is wrong, but I am powerless to do anything about it. My brain is permanently fried from that med.  Here is the damage I notice: 1). Word retrieval – I can "picture" the word I want to say but I can’t find the word to use. Often, I have to substitute other, less efficient words to express what I’m trying to say. 2.) Thought retention – My mind just feels foggy and thoughts slip away very easily.  For example, when talking to myself I frequently have trouble recalling a sequence of thoughts from just a few seconds ago. It slips away so easily. My thoughts contain only about 2-3 words or "chunks" (at most). Beyond that I forget very easily.  Therefore, I lose the "word base" from which to form more complex thoughts. Everyone, please skip to the bottom if this post bores you. It is the absolute truth of my experience with SSRIs, and right now I’m feeling very frustrated at what is happening.. I’ve BEEN OFF MEDICATION FOR OVER A YEAR AND MY COGNITIVE ABILITIES HAVE NOT IMPROVED. Most of the damage (I feel) is subtle.. My doctor doesn’t believe there is damage. I have posted here once a long time ago and some people thought I was just an antimedication fanatic of the school of scientology.  Genimi from Vegas (don’t know if she still posts here) and "indiferent" were among those who believed it could/might happen. I believe I might have an oversensitivity in my brain that may have caused the damage to be GREATER than most people.. or maybe it is genetic. I do not know.  All I can tell you is my experience only, I have no scientific proof, all I’m saying is that I notice these effects LONG AFTER QUITTING, and I never HAD THESE PROBLEMS PRIOR TO THE MEDS. Most of the effects are subtle, so this post may actually sound halfway intelligent. But if you read more closely, the word choice is very limited.. I can’t even explain the damage I feel because I’ve lost the rich, complex and fluid linguistic capacity to express it. To have brain damage and KNOW it, but be unable to express it except in an adolescent fashion is a double-whammy to me.  I know this post is also disjointed and I use the word "I" too much.   That is also a sign of the damage, although no one on this board would know because I’ve never written here prior to the damage. I can’t even convince my docs that this damage has really occurred, because I no longer have the verbal eloquence to express myself in a reasoned, intelligent way. I just sound hysterical and histrionical… as though these are just my fears and nothing else.  BUT I TELL YOU, I FEEL THE DAMAGE AND I’M ANGRY BECAUSE I DON’T KNOW HOW TO WORD IT IN QUITE A WAY THAT EXPRESSES HOW IT FEELS TO STRUGGLE WITH PERMANENT BRAIN DAMAGE.  I FEEL AS IF I’VE BEEN IN A CAR ACCIDENT, the damage feels very diffuse, as if my brain is a sweater that has gone through the dryer too many times – frayed synapses and torn connections. I know this post also sounds very black and white, because I’ve lost my ability to employ my formally rich and subtle grasp of the English language to convey my point across… all I’m doing here is rambling and whining.  I think I’ve also lost some of my organizational ability (because my short-term memory is fried) so I’m sorry if this post is winding, convoluted and very horribly worded. Also (I feel) Anafranil and Prozac have also given me acquired ADD (Attention Deficit Disorder). Sorry this post is so disorganized.  I can no longer express myself and I have trouble remembering where I am in a thought and where my thoughts are leading (if these are in fact thoughts at all!). The most frightening damaged I’ve noticed from the meds is that I found an old diary of mine (written 5 years ago PRIOR to the meds) and I’m amazed that some of the words used were even part of my vocabulary.  I no longer have the retention to recall those words or their context of usage.  SORRY IF I’M USING CAPS HERE BECAUSE MY WORDS NO LONGER HAVE ANY IMPACT AND I AM UNABLE TO EXPRESS MYSELF EXCEPT LIKE A TEENAGER. This is not to scare people off meds. Some people will need them for life because their symptoms are so severe. I’m just talking from my own experience with one (Anafranil), and am expressing my frustration and sadness from the loss(es) I’ve experienced more than anything.. I also notice a permanent emotional flattening (or dulling) that I can’t explain either.  This is very scary to me also, because I’m only 35 and have many more years to live. I am almost certain that if this gets worse over time, and the damage is compounded with natural deterioration from aging, I will no longer want to be alive. I am a shell of my former self, and am struggling with these subtle cognitive effects THAT HAVE NOT LET UP EVEN AFTER OVER A YEAR BEING OFF THE ANAFRANIL AND PROZAC. So obviously something has happened, but I don’t know what.  Obviously my psychiatrist won’t tell me anything because THAT’S WHAT HE IS PAID TO DO – PRESCRIBE MEDICATION!  Most of his education (I’m sure) is funded by the drug companies.. and I’m sure he rationalizes his prescribing of this brain damaging shit by thinking "Oh, well if she kills herself or something, then I can’t say I didn’t try my best to help her." No doubt, SSRI’s and other meds have some positive effects. The *only* positive effect I’ve noticed is my lows aren’t quite as low as they used to be. That’s about it.  Other than that, I’m a brain damaged vegetable who can no longer carry on a conversation. THERE ARE NO THOUGHTS IN MY HEAD ANYMORE.  I struggle to write this post.  I’m sure it is longwinded as I’ve completely lost my sense of verbal precision. I hope someone who has had the same experience can post. I feel so alone. patricia

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – …from 3 years of Anafranil and Prozac.  Excuse this garbled message (probably a result of the damage, but I am so depressed right now because I know *exactly* what is wrong, but I am powerless to do anything about it. My brain is permanently fried from that med.  Here is the damage I notice: 1). Word retrieval – I can "picture" the word I want to say but I can’t find the word to use. Often, I have to substitute other, less efficient words to express what I’m trying to say. 2.) Thought retention – My mind just feels foggy and thoughts slip away very easily.  For example, when talking to myself I frequently have trouble recalling a sequence of thoughts from just a few seconds ago. It slips away so easily. My thoughts contain only about 2-3 words or "chunks" (at most). Beyond that I forget very easily.  Therefore, I lose the "word base" from which to form more complex thoughts. Everyone, please skip to the bottom if this post bores you. It is the absolute truth of my experience with SSRIs, and right now I’m feeling very frustrated at what is happening.. I’ve BEEN OFF MEDICATION FOR OVER A YEAR AND MY COGNITIVE ABILITIES HAVE NOT IMPROVED. Most of the damage (I feel) is subtle.. My doctor doesn’t believe there is damage. I have posted here once a long time ago and some people thought I was just an antimedication fanatic of the school of scientology.  Genimi from Vegas (don’t know if she still posts here) and "indiferent" were among those who believed it could/might happen. I believe I might have an oversensitivity in my brain that may have caused the damage to be GREATER than most people.. or maybe it is genetic. I do not know.  All I can tell you is my experience only, I have no scientific proof, all I’m saying is that I notice these effects LONG AFTER QUITTING, and I never HAD THESE PROBLEMS PRIOR TO THE MEDS. Most of the effects are subtle, so this post may actually sound halfway intelligent. But if you read more closely, the word choice is very limited.. I can’t even explain the damage I feel because I’ve lost the rich, complex and fluid linguistic capacity to express it. To have brain damage and KNOW it, but be unable to express it except in an adolescent fashion is a double-whammy to me.  I know this post is also disjointed and I use the word "I" too much.   That is also a sign of the damage, although no one on this board would know because I’ve never written here prior to the damage. I can’t even convince my docs that this damage has really occurred, because I no longer have the verbal eloquence to express myself in a reasoned, intelligent way. I just sound hysterical and histrionical… as though these are just my fears and nothing else.  BUT I TELL YOU, I FEEL THE DAMAGE AND I’M ANGRY BECAUSE I DON’T KNOW HOW TO WORD IT IN QUITE A WAY THAT EXPRESSES HOW IT FEELS TO STRUGGLE WITH PERMANENT BRAIN DAMAGE.  I FEEL AS IF I’VE BEEN IN A CAR ACCIDENT, the damage feels very diffuse, as if my brain is a sweater that has gone through the dryer too many times – frayed synapses and torn connections. I know this post also sounds very black and white, because I’ve lost my ability to employ my formally rich and subtle grasp of the English language to convey my point across… all I’m doing here is rambling and whining.  I think I’ve also lost some of my organizational ability (because my short-term memory is fried) so I’m sorry if this post is winding, convoluted and very horribly worded. Also (I feel) Anafranil and Prozac have also given me acquired ADD (Attention Deficit Disorder). Sorry this post is so disorganized.  I can no longer express myself and I have trouble remembering where I am in a thought and where my thoughts are leading (if these are in fact thoughts at all!). The most frightening damaged I’ve noticed from the meds is that I found an old diary of mine (written 5 years ago PRIOR to the meds) and I’m amazed that some of the words used were even part of my vocabulary.  I no longer have the retention to recall those words or their context of usage.  SORRY IF I’M USING CAPS HERE BECAUSE MY WORDS NO LONGER HAVE ANY IMPACT AND I AM UNABLE TO EXPRESS MYSELF EXCEPT LIKE A TEENAGER. This is not to scare people off meds. Some people will need them for life because their symptoms are so severe. I’m just talking from my own experience with one (Anafranil), and am expressing my frustration and sadness from the loss(es) I’ve experienced more than anything.. I also notice a permanent emotional flattening (or dulling) that I can’t explain either.  This is very scary to me also, because I’m only 35 and have many more years to live. I am almost certain that if this gets worse over time, and the damage is compounded with natural deterioration from aging, I will no longer want to be alive. I am a shell of my former self, and am struggling with these subtle cognitive effects THAT HAVE NOT LET UP EVEN AFTER OVER A YEAR BEING OFF THE ANAFRANIL AND PROZAC. So obviously something has happened, but I don’t know what.  Obviously my psychiatrist won’t tell me anything because THAT’S WHAT HE IS PAID TO DO – PRESCRIBE MEDICATION!  Most of his education (I’m sure) is funded by the drug companies.. and I’m sure he rationalizes his prescribing of this brain damaging shit by thinking "Oh, well if she kills herself or something, then I can’t say I didn’t try my best to help her." No doubt, SSRI’s and other meds have some positive effects. The *only* positive effect I’ve noticed is my lows aren’t quite as low as they used to be. That’s about it.  Other than that, I’m a brain damaged vegetable who can no longer carry on a conversation. THERE ARE NO THOUGHTS IN MY HEAD ANYMORE.  I struggle to write this post.  I’m sure it is longwinded as I’ve completely lost my sense of verbal precision. I hope someone who has had the same experience can post. I feel so alone. patricia

Hi Patricia:     I suffer a lot of the *brain damage* descriptions you mention.  These are quite normal for persons suffering from depression.  I’ve taken every type of med there is and had ECTs.  I’m quite treatment resistant. Currently, I’m taking Parnate and Topamax.  Topamax does leave me *looking for that word* you describe.  This present combination is becoming more and more ineffective and will abandon it shortly and they are damaging my liver. But, sure I walk around feeling brain damaged.  For 3 years now – this time. Three years the last time also.  I’m told by my pdoc, I’m such a lovely candidate for recurring episodes of major depression.  I hope each episode they come up with newer and new and safer meds, huh?     Having ECTs has lead to a lot of comments from people referring to the fact that *hey, I bet you are brain damaged*.  I’ve never taken alcohol or rec drugs, and I often wonder how many of those people making statements like that to me can claim the same.  ha-ha.     I have days where I talk and forget what I’m talking about it while I’m talking about it.  So I just don’t talk.  I’m alone usually, so it does not matter.  I often go somewhere and can not remember why I’m there.  Upsetting event, because this will cause the usual panic and anxiety attack.     I’ve now entered the *zone* where I just don’t care really.  I have lost who I was and do not know who I can be.  I am constantly doubtful that I can contribute intelligently to a conversation with anyone in this group.  I believe depression the disease, wears out your brain.  If you are fortunate enough to find a compatible medication with your chemistry – viola – you become well and all the ugly symptoms you speak of will go unnoticed.  So will mine.     I’ve tried – Tricyclics (sp? – duh), Lithium, Prozac, Effexor, Paxil, Manerix, ECTs, Nardil (MAOI), Wellbutrin+Celexa, Parnate(MAOI)+Topamax(MS).     MAOIs do work for me, but dosage must be kept low due to liver problems. So why bother now?  I’m sure there are more we could chuck in there.     For me, a common side effect with everything (except MAOIs) was that I had to go to extremely high doses to get any effect and even that would wear out – but I would get all the side effects.  In a nutshell, I took ADs to get ugly side effects and no relief from major depression.     I often think that my existence is for what?  To live like a terrorized animal in a cage with my eyes open so wide that I don’t see anything? Noises so loud I don’t hear anything one thing?  How can live like this? And to know that ***IF*** this can be finally, after 3 years put under control, it is just going to return.     I have the age old question, why am I here?  What was my purpose?  I’ve have only one reason.  I brought the most wonderful son into the world who will be good and kind to all people.  A special person who a suffered a lot more than he should have already.  A natural peacekeeper. Take Care Sorry for my rambles Carrie

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Patricia…this is Gemini. So so sorry for what you been through and are going through and feeling.. I know what you are saying…it’s been nearly a year I been off all meds except thyroid meds. and its the same for me.. I  get called dummy girl, imbecile, demented, stupid, idiot..still on account of it. Tis not true. .Like you say, its subtle and effects ability to articulate,  access and retrieve right words, and such..not your thinking or cognition  itself.

Exactly. Even though I have somewhat of a muted picture of what I really want to say, I can’t find the words to say it.   What part(s) of the brain govern this I wonder? I researched it and there is now a NAME might apply  . P.A.N.E.S   for Persistant Adverse Neurological Effects Stopping SSRI’s I post any articles, I have found about it…

Thanks for posting it.  Maybe if it is an actual website I can add my own story to it.  Some of the symptoms described on that site are similar to mine – disinhibition (?), mild irritability and a mild facial tic. so do a  goggle search using  P.A.N.E.S  will produce one or more of the articles on it for you.. I think I know how scared you must be. (I am)

I’m very scared. I just don’t know how much damage it has done, and since I’m in my mid-thirties, will this effect multiply as I lose more cells due to aging? This whole thing is freaking me out. I been trying out and getting some relief, with dietary changes… then supplementing big time with a bunch of vitamins..etc.  I am now  looking into idea a gluten intolerance or food intolerance of some kind made it so..I didnt metabolize meds like NORM,  and they got delivered to my brain in a toxic fashion..for me.

What kind of vitamins do you take? Is it helping? You mention gluten intolerance.. do you mean MSG and soy products. I read somewhere that they can also have an impact on the brain. Holistic healing…research on my part, is ongoing  big time…researching chelation,  YOGA supposed to help,  BREATHING improving circulation, anything….  However I just breached the tip of the iceberg in those areas… SSRIS are vascocontricters,  maybe prolonged use makes it remain constricted unless you do a lot of shit to open up airways.. why I am looking into ways of opening up breathing so more oxygen to brain.. might dissipate a little of this problem Only thing helped me in years…alternate remedies.alll  .one by one adding up to improvements..

Thanks for posting. I would be very interested in what kinds of remedies specifically you’re using.   Its Jan…mid January  and the first one in a decade I wasnt on a med, where I didnt sink into clinicla depression, thanks to what I done so far.

That’s good. Depression is the worst evil, and if you can overcome that to some degree then you’ve succeeded. I was having a panic attack recently, and someone suggested I use this alternate breathing technique rather than call in for zanax, and IT stopped the growing panic,  dead.in a matter of hours..after I begun it. So I am hopeful…I can improve some fo the problems  via diet, exercise and knowlege of holistic,  living..and then living more holistically…

Thanks for sharing your hope. BTW, I’ll be checking this newsgroup on a regular basis (been a while since posting but I remember yours and Mike’s posts) and if you have time could you share some things that have worked for you the most cognitively speaking? I’m very interested. Gingko Biloba is something I’m considering now, but not sure about the long term effects (at least it is natural!)  - Patricia

Response:

Dear Patricia, I have a background in writing — I have also up to this past June 2001 been on a variety of psychiatric drugs… such as Lithium , Seroquel, Tompamax and Carbamazepine.  I did find taking this combination of cocktail… to be rather disturbing in respect to my language and cognitive abilities.  When attempts were made to speak — often I had problems bringing out the exact wordage I wanted to use.

Did you mean speaking vs. writing? I’m finding a problem with speaking even more than writing- at least on paper the previous thought is written down, so that is the crutch I use to recall my previous train of thought and continue it further. However since June, I have gradually taken myself off of all of the above medications and as of tomorrow will be going back onto just 100mg of Topamax, I have otherwise found myself to better concentrate since being off of the above mentioned cocktail combination.

How long were you on the other meds (excluding Topomax)? In respect to your message here.  I had found no difficulty in understanding what you were trying to express….

Same here in regards to your post.   Patricia – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – …from 3 years of Anafranil and Prozac.  Excuse this garbled message (probably a result of the damage, but I am so depressed right now because I know *exactly* what is wrong, but I am powerless to do anything about it. My brain is permanently fried from that med.  Here is the damage I notice: 1). Word retrieval – I can "picture" the word I want to say but I can’t find the word to use. Often, I have to substitute other, less efficient words to express what I’m trying to say. 2.) Thought retention – My mind just feels foggy and thoughts slip away very easily.  For example, when talking to myself I frequently have trouble recalling a sequence of thoughts from just a few seconds ago. It slips away so easily. My thoughts contain only about 2-3 words or "chunks" (at most). Beyond that I forget very easily.  Therefore, I lose the "word base" from which to form more complex thoughts. Everyone, please skip to the bottom if this post bores you. It is the absolute truth of my experience with SSRIs, and right now I’m feeling very frustrated at what is happening.. I’ve BEEN OFF MEDICATION FOR OVER A YEAR AND MY COGNITIVE ABILITIES HAVE NOT IMPROVED. Most of the damage (I feel) is subtle.. My doctor doesn’t believe there is damage. I have posted here once a long time ago and some people thought I was just an antimedication fanatic of the school of scientology.  Genimi from Vegas (don’t know if she still posts here) and "indiferent" were among those who believed it could/might happen. I believe I might have an oversensitivity in my brain that may have caused the damage to be GREATER than most people.. or maybe it is genetic. I do not know.  All I can tell you is my experience only, I have no scientific proof, all I’m saying is that I notice these effects LONG AFTER QUITTING, and I never HAD THESE PROBLEMS PRIOR TO THE MEDS. Most of the effects are subtle, so this post may actually sound halfway intelligent. But if you read more closely, the word choice is very limited.. I can’t even explain the damage I feel because I’ve lost the rich, complex and fluid linguistic capacity to express it. To have brain damage and KNOW it, but be unable to express it except in an adolescent fashion is a double-whammy to me.  I know this post is also disjointed and I use the word "I" too much.   That is also a sign of the damage, although no one on this board would know because I’ve never written here prior to the damage. I can’t even convince my docs that this damage has really occurred, because I no longer have the verbal eloquence to express myself in a reasoned, intelligent way. I just sound hysterical and histrionical… as though these are just my fears and nothing else.  BUT I TELL YOU, I FEEL THE DAMAGE AND I’M ANGRY BECAUSE I DON’T KNOW HOW TO WORD IT IN QUITE A WAY THAT EXPRESSES HOW IT FEELS TO STRUGGLE WITH PERMANENT BRAIN DAMAGE.  I FEEL AS IF I’VE BEEN IN A CAR ACCIDENT, the damage feels very diffuse, as if my brain is a sweater that has gone through the dryer too many times – frayed synapses and torn connections. I know this post also sounds very black and white, because I’ve lost my ability to employ my formally rich and subtle grasp of the English language to convey my point across… all I’m doing here is rambling and whining.  I think I’ve also lost some of my organizational ability (because my short-term memory is fried) so I’m sorry if this post is winding, convoluted and very horribly worded. Also (I feel) Anafranil and Prozac have also given me acquired ADD (Attention Deficit Disorder). Sorry this post is so disorganized.  I can no longer express myself and I have trouble remembering where I am in a thought and where my thoughts are leading (if these are in fact thoughts at all!). The most frightening damaged I’ve noticed from the meds is that I found an old diary of mine (written 5 years ago PRIOR to the meds) and I’m amazed that some of the words used were even part of my vocabulary.  I no longer have the retention to recall those words or their context of usage.  SORRY IF I’M USING CAPS HERE BECAUSE MY WORDS NO LONGER HAVE ANY IMPACT AND I AM UNABLE TO EXPRESS MYSELF EXCEPT LIKE A TEENAGER. This is not to scare people off meds. Some people will need them for life because their symptoms are so severe. I’m just talking from my own experience with one (Anafranil), and am expressing my frustration and sadness from the loss(es) I’ve experienced more than anything.. I also notice a permanent emotional flattening (or dulling) that I can’t explain either.  This is very scary to me also, because I’m only 35 and have many more years to live. I am almost certain that if this gets worse over time, and the damage is compounded with natural deterioration from aging, I will no longer want to be alive. I am a shell of my former self, and am struggling with these subtle cognitive effects THAT HAVE NOT LET UP EVEN AFTER OVER A YEAR BEING OFF THE ANAFRANIL AND PROZAC. So obviously something has happened, but I don’t know what.  Obviously my psychiatrist won’t tell me anything because THAT’S WHAT HE IS PAID TO DO – PRESCRIBE MEDICATION!  Most of his education (I’m sure) is funded by the drug companies.. and I’m sure he rationalizes his prescribing of this brain damaging shit by thinking "Oh, well if she kills herself or something, then I can’t say I didn’t try my best to help her." No doubt, SSRI’s and other meds have some positive effects. The *only* positive effect I’ve noticed is my lows aren’t quite as low as they used to be. That’s about it.  Other than that, I’m a brain damaged vegetable who can no longer carry on a conversation. THERE ARE NO THOUGHTS IN MY HEAD ANYMORE.  I struggle to write this post.  I’m sure it is longwinded as I’ve completely lost my sense of verbal precision. I hope someone who has had the same experience can post. I feel so alone. patricia

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – …from 3 years of Anafranil and Prozac.  Excuse this garbled message (probably a result of the damage, but I am so depressed right now because I know *exactly* what is wrong, but I am powerless to do anything about it. My brain is permanently fried from that med.  Here is the damage I notice: 1). Word retrieval – I can "picture" the word I want to say but I can’t find the word to use. Often, I have to substitute other, less efficient words to express what I’m trying to say. 2.) Thought retention – My mind just feels foggy and thoughts slip away very easily.  For example, when talking to myself I frequently have trouble recalling a sequence of thoughts from just a few seconds ago. It slips away so easily. My thoughts contain only about 2-3 words or "chunks" (at most). Beyond that I forget very easily.  Therefore, I lose the "word base" from which to form more complex thoughts. Everyone, please skip to the bottom if this post bores you. It is the absolute truth of my experience with SSRIs, and right now I’m feeling very frustrated at what is happening.. I’ve BEEN OFF MEDICATION FOR OVER A YEAR AND MY COGNITIVE ABILITIES HAVE NOT IMPROVED. Most of the damage (I feel) is subtle.. My doctor doesn’t believe there is damage. I have posted here once a long time ago and some people thought I was just an antimedication fanatic of the school of scientology.  Genimi from Vegas (don’t know if she still posts here) and "indiferent" were among those who believed it could/might happen. I believe I might have an oversensitivity in my brain that may have caused the damage to be GREATER than most people.. or maybe it is genetic. I do not know.  All I can tell you is my experience only, I have no scientific proof, all I’m saying is that I notice these effects LONG AFTER QUITTING, and I never HAD THESE PROBLEMS PRIOR TO THE MEDS. Most of the effects are subtle, so this post may actually sound halfway intelligent. But if you read more closely, the word choice is very limited.. I can’t even explain the damage I feel because I’ve lost the rich, complex and fluid linguistic capacity to express it. To have brain damage and KNOW it, but be unable to express it except in an adolescent fashion is a double-whammy to me.  I know this post is also disjointed and I use the word "I" too much.   That is also a sign of the damage, although no one on this board would know because I’ve never written here prior to the damage. I can’t even convince my docs that this damage has really occurred, because I no longer have the verbal eloquence to express myself in a reasoned, intelligent way. I just sound hysterical and histrionical… as though these are just my fears and nothing else.  BUT I TELL YOU, I FEEL THE DAMAGE AND I’M ANGRY BECAUSE I DON’T KNOW HOW TO WORD IT IN QUITE A WAY THAT EXPRESSES HOW IT FEELS TO STRUGGLE WITH PERMANENT BRAIN DAMAGE.  I FEEL AS IF I’VE BEEN IN A CAR ACCIDENT, the damage feels very diffuse, as if my brain is a sweater that has gone through the dryer too many times – frayed synapses and torn connections. I know this post also sounds very black and white, because I’ve lost my ability to employ my formally rich and subtle grasp of the English language to convey my point across… all I’m doing here is rambling and whining.  I think I’ve also lost some of my organizational ability (because my short-term memory is fried) so I’m sorry if this post is winding, convoluted and very horribly worded. Also (I feel) Anafranil and Prozac have also given me acquired ADD (Attention Deficit Disorder). Sorry this post is so disorganized.  I can no longer express myself and I have trouble remembering where I am in a thought and where my thoughts are leading (if these are in fact thoughts at all!). The most frightening damaged I’ve noticed from the meds is that I found an old diary of mine (written 5 years ago PRIOR to the meds) and I’m amazed that some of the words used were even part of my vocabulary.  I no longer have the retention to recall those words or their context of usage.  SORRY IF I’M USING CAPS HERE BECAUSE MY WORDS NO LONGER HAVE ANY IMPACT AND I AM UNABLE TO EXPRESS MYSELF EXCEPT LIKE A TEENAGER. This is not to scare people off meds. Some people will need them for life because their symptoms are so severe. I’m just talking from my own experience with one (Anafranil), and am expressing my frustration and sadness from the loss(es) I’ve experienced more than anything.. I also notice a permanent emotional flattening (or dulling) that I can’t explain either.  This is very scary to me also, because I’m only 35 and have many more years to live. I am almost certain that if this gets worse over time, and the damage is compounded with natural deterioration from aging, I will no longer want to be alive. I am a shell of my former self, and am struggling with these subtle cognitive effects THAT HAVE NOT LET UP EVEN AFTER OVER A YEAR BEING OFF THE ANAFRANIL AND PROZAC. So obviously something has happened, but I don’t know what.  Obviously my psychiatrist won’t tell me anything because THAT’S WHAT HE IS PAID TO DO – PRESCRIBE MEDICATION!  Most of his education (I’m sure) is funded by the drug companies.. and I’m sure he rationalizes his prescribing of this brain damaging shit by thinking "Oh, well if she kills herself or something, then I can’t say I didn’t try my best to help her." No doubt, SSRI’s and other meds have some positive effects. The *only* positive effect I’ve noticed is my lows aren’t quite as low as they used to be. That’s about it.  Other than that, I’m a brain damaged vegetable who can no longer carry on a conversation. THERE ARE NO THOUGHTS IN MY HEAD ANYMORE.  I struggle to write this post.  I’m sure it is longwinded as I’ve completely lost my sense of verbal precision. I hope someone who has had the same experience can post. I feel so alone. patricia Hi Patricia:    I suffer a lot of the *brain damage* descriptions you mention.  These are quite normal for persons suffering from depression.  I’ve taken every type of med there is and had ECTs.  I’m quite treatment resistant. Currently, I’m taking Parnate and Topamax.  Topamax does leave me *looking for that word* you describe.  

You are one of many people who have describe word-finding difficulties while on psychotropics. I’m not sure exactly what Topamax is or does, but I do notice the same effect while on the meds, and after quitting they seem to have left a lasting imprint. This present combination is becoming more and more ineffective and will abandon it shortly and they are damaging my liver. But, sure I walk around feeling brain damaged.  For 3 years now – this time. Three years the last time also.  I’m told by my pdoc, I’m such a lovely candidate for recurring episodes of major depression.  I hope each episode they come up with newer and new and safer meds, huh?    Having ECTs has lead to a lot of comments from people referring to the fact that *hey, I bet you are brain damaged*.  I’ve never taken alcohol or rec drugs, and I often wonder how many of those people making statements like that to me can claim the same.  ha-ha.

That’s interesting about alcohol – I often wonder whether the brain damage would have been less being an alcoholic for a few years. How do you feel the ECT affected you?    I have days where I talk and forget what I’m talking about it while I’m talking about it.  So I just don’t talk.  

Same here. At work people are joking around and I can’t even say a single sentence without stumbling. Often when I’m talking I find myself out on a limb- I forget where I’m headed with the thought. So yes, I’ve found being forgetful can reduce the confidence level quite a bit. I’m alone usually, so it does not matter.  

Me too. I often go somewhere and can not remember why I’m there.  Upsetting event, because this will cause the usual panic and anxiety attack.    I’ve now entered the *zone* where I just don’t care really.  I have lost who I was and do not know who I can be.  

Same here.  I have lost who I was too, and the hardest thing I’ve been dealing with is how to adjust to this new persona. I really feel for your apathy state.. I have the same feeling. Most of the time my mind is just a blank. I am constantly doubtful that I can contribute intelligently to a conversation with anyone in this group.  

You sound intelligent to me, although I have no idea what your previous level was. I know the feelings of doubt though, and the need to just withdraw and retreat from other people. I have about 0% the confidence level I had before the bouts with the SSRIs, and that includes a new feeling that I don’t come across warm or caring enough. It’s as if something in my brain that regulates emotion got eroded somehow. believe depression the disease, wears out your brain.

It does, depression too can damage the brain. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you are fortunate enough to find a compatible medication with your chemistry – viola – you become well and all the ugly symptoms you speak of will go unnoticed.  So will mine.    I’ve tried – Tricyclics (sp? – duh), Lithium, Prozac, Effexor, Paxil, Manerix, ECTs, Nardil (MAOI), Wellbutrin+Celexa, Parnate(MAOI)+Topamax(MS).    MAOIs do work for me, but dosage must be kept low due to liver problems. So why bother now?  I’m sure there are more we could chuck in there.    For me, a common side effect with everything (except MAOIs) was that I had to go to

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Response:

Thanks Bob.   Patricia – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Patricia.. I dont know how long ago you posted but people here do now take seriously the side and after effects of medications.. Many here suffer from such and are dealing with them.. Off the bat I have to say whatever you think.. your post is intelligent.. coherent and extremely articulate..not at all as you imagine it to be Gemini does still post here and I am sure will respond. there are many here who have had or are having similar experiences so you dont have to feel so alone .. It is usenet. so you could just ignore the occasional scienos under the beds post. Im sorry you are struggling with such problems and fears but you are by no means on your own. regards, Bob …from 3 years of Anafranil and Prozac.  Excuse this garbled message (probably a result of the damage, but I am so depressed right now because I know *exactly* what is wrong, but I am powerless to do anything about it. My brain is permanently fried from that med.  Here is the damage I notice: 1). Word retrieval – I can "picture" the word I want to say but I can’t find the word to use. Often, I have to substitute other, less efficient words to express what I’m trying to say. 2.) Thought retention – My mind just feels foggy and thoughts slip away very easily.  For example, when talking to myself I frequently have trouble recalling a sequence of thoughts from just a few seconds ago. It slips away so easily. My thoughts contain only about 2-3 words or "chunks" (at most). Beyond that I forget very easily.  Therefore, I lose the "word base" from which to form more complex thoughts. Everyone, please skip to the bottom if this post bores you. It is the absolute truth of my experience with SSRIs, and right now I’m feeling very frustrated at what is happening.. I’ve BEEN OFF MEDICATION FOR OVER A YEAR AND MY COGNITIVE ABILITIES HAVE NOT IMPROVED. Most of the damage (I feel) is subtle.. My doctor doesn’t believe there is damage. I have posted here once a long time ago and some people thought I was just an antimedication fanatic of the school of scientology.  Genimi from Vegas (don’t know if she still posts here) and "indiferent" were among those who believed it could/might happen. I believe I might have an oversensitivity in my brain that may have caused the damage to be GREATER than most people.. or maybe it is genetic. I do not know.  All I can tell you is my experience only, I have no scientific proof, all I’m saying is that I notice these effects LONG AFTER QUITTING, and I never HAD THESE PROBLEMS PRIOR TO THE MEDS. Most of the effects are subtle, so this post may actually sound halfway intelligent. But if you read more closely, the word choice is very limited.. I can’t even explain the damage I feel because I’ve lost the rich, complex and fluid linguistic capacity to express it. To have brain damage and KNOW it, but be unable to express it except in an adolescent fashion is a double-whammy to me.  I know this post is also disjointed and I use the word "I" too much.   That is also a sign of the damage, although no one on this board would know because I’ve never written here prior to the damage. I can’t even convince my docs that this damage has really occurred, because I no longer have the verbal eloquence to express myself in a reasoned, intelligent way. I just sound hysterical and histrionical… as though these are just my fears and nothing else.  BUT I TELL YOU, I FEEL THE DAMAGE AND I’M ANGRY BECAUSE I DON’T KNOW HOW TO WORD IT IN QUITE A WAY THAT EXPRESSES HOW IT FEELS TO STRUGGLE WITH PERMANENT BRAIN DAMAGE.  I FEEL AS IF I’VE BEEN IN A CAR ACCIDENT, the damage feels very diffuse, as if my brain is a sweater that has gone through the dryer too many times – frayed synapses and torn connections. I know this post also sounds very black and white, because I’ve lost my ability to employ my formally rich and subtle grasp of the English language to convey my point across… all I’m doing here is rambling and whining.  I think I’ve also lost some of my organizational ability (because my short-term memory is fried) so I’m sorry if this post is winding, convoluted and very horribly worded. Also (I feel) Anafranil and Prozac have also given me acquired ADD (Attention Deficit Disorder). Sorry this post is so disorganized.  I can no longer express myself and I have trouble remembering where I am in a thought and where my thoughts are leading (if these are in fact thoughts at all!). The most frightening damaged I’ve noticed from the meds is that I found an old diary of mine (written 5 years ago PRIOR to the meds) and I’m amazed that some of the words used were even part of my vocabulary.  I no longer have the retention to recall those words or their context of usage.  SORRY IF I’M USING CAPS HERE BECAUSE MY WORDS NO LONGER HAVE ANY IMPACT AND I AM UNABLE TO EXPRESS MYSELF EXCEPT LIKE A TEENAGER. This is not to scare people off meds. Some people will need them for life because their symptoms are so severe. I’m just talking from my own experience with one (Anafranil), and am expressing my frustration and sadness from the loss(es) I’ve experienced more than anything.. I also notice a permanent emotional flattening (or dulling) that I can’t explain either.  This is very scary to me also, because I’m only 35 and have many more years to live. I am almost certain that if this gets worse over time, and the damage is compounded with natural deterioration from aging, I will no longer want to be alive. I am a shell of my former self, and am struggling with these subtle cognitive effects THAT HAVE NOT LET UP EVEN AFTER OVER A YEAR BEING OFF THE ANAFRANIL AND PROZAC. So obviously something has happened, but I don’t know what.  Obviously my psychiatrist won’t tell me anything because THAT’S WHAT HE IS PAID TO DO – PRESCRIBE MEDICATION!  Most of his education (I’m sure) is funded by the drug companies.. and I’m sure he rationalizes his prescribing of this brain damaging shit by thinking "Oh, well if she kills herself or something, then I can’t say I didn’t try my best to help her." No doubt, SSRI’s and other meds have some positive effects. The *only* positive effect I’ve noticed is my lows aren’t quite as low as they used to be. That’s about it.  Other than that, I’m a brain damaged vegetable who can no longer carry on a conversation. THERE ARE NO THOUGHTS IN MY HEAD ANYMORE.  I struggle to write this post.  I’m sure it is longwinded as I’ve completely lost my sense of verbal precision. I hope someone who has had the same experience can post. I feel so alone. patricia

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Patricia…this is Gemini. So so sorry for what you been through and are going through and feeling.. I know what you are saying…it’s been nearly a year I been off all meds except thyroid meds. and its the same for me.. I  get called dummy girl, imbecile, demented, stupid, idiot..still on account of it. Tis not true. .Like you say, its subtle and effects ability to articulate,  access and retrieve right words, and such..not your thinking or cognition  itself. Exactly. Even though I have somewhat of a muted picture of what I really want to say, I can’t find the words to say it.   What part(s) of the brain govern this I wonder? I don’t know.  I liken this problem to one I have regards colors on my computer monitor.  It is capable of , and supposed to be able to use 256 colors, but I have always only been able to get 16 colors! I am never without words, like my monitor is never without color  BUT..not always the precise word, or right color…and with such a limited number offered up to chose from  when articulating, I find my description is always much harsher than words

Me too. I find I have that problem frequently, like not wanting to seem to "black and white" in my thinking or too simplistic. But my arsenal of vocabulary is so limited that I end up choosing words that communicate a very caricaturistic picture. But I notice that you express yourself in a very interesting way. You seem to break some of the "rules" on purpose and your posts seem richer and more flavorful than most. I would have used or like my screen colors  are harsher lacking access to the full array and color schemes my old monitor had. Sometimes while seeking to find the words to articulate a thought, an image will flash through my mind instead, revealing my meaning.    people then wind up being told they behave like altar boys, and ghouls, and snakes and sharks and other animals,  especially reptiles a lot.  LOL Their actually the lucky ones…as the ones I got no picture shortcut to articulate my meanings get these rambling replies…where  not finding the right words to make the point..have to settle for my suggesting what my point is..LOL

Sometimes images are very powerful, but I see what you mean. At this point however, my brain is at a juncture where even images don’t appear anymore.   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I researched it and there is now a NAME might apply  . P.A.N.E.S   for Persistant Adverse Neurological Effects Stopping SSRI’s I post any articles, I have found about it… Thanks for posting it.  Maybe if it is an actual website I can add my own story to it.  Some of the symptoms described on that site are similar to mine – disinhibition (?), mild irritability and a mild facial tic. Disinhibition,  where you  have no qualms about doing or saying in public what you normally be too inhibited to do or say, due to social conventions or your own personal code when normal. .

That’s what I thought. It sounds almost like a frontal lobotomy effect. I have the rest of what you wrote saved.,   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

You wrote somewhere that people will not admit that what you write doesn’t make sense. Well it makes sense to me..   Patricia – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Patricia…this is Gemini. So so sorry for what you been through and are going through and feeling.. I know what you are saying…it’s been nearly a year I been off all meds except thyroid meds. and its the same for me.. I  get called dummy girl, imbecile, demented, stupid, idiot..still on account of it. Tis not true. .Like you say, its subtle and effects ability to articulate,  access and retrieve right words, and such..not your thinking or cognition  itself. Exactly. Even though I have somewhat of a muted picture of what I really want to say, I can’t find the words to say it.   What part(s) of the brain govern this I wonder? I don’t know.  I liken this problem to one I have regards colors on my computer monitor.  It is capable of , and supposed to be able to use 256 colors, but I have always only been able to get 16 colors! If you relate to my analogy at all…my computer must be missing  the Drivers..that allow it to display 256 colors its capable of  rather than only the 16 it now does…. . same with my brain…the capacity is there…same with the knowledge,  all there…stored..I am sure. So I  must be missing drivers needed for complete search  or in the search engine itself sustained damage…so only so much of what I know is presented during retrieval.. forcing me to choose among much more limited range of words and info to express my ideas, thoughts and beliefs…. Regards this.kind of problem…I like what Scott Hamilton has to say…."only disability in life is a bad attitude"  . I am never without words, like my monitor is never without color  BUT..not always the precise word, or right color…and with such a limited number offered up to chose from  when articulating, I find my description is always much harsher than words I would have used or like my screen colors  are harsher lacking access to the full array and color schemes my old monitor had. Sometimes while seeking to find the words to articulate a thought, an image will flash through my mind instead, revealing my meaning.    people then wind up being told they behave like altar boys, and ghouls, and snakes and sharks and other animals,  especially reptiles a lot.  LOL Their actually the lucky ones…as the ones I got no picture shortcut to articulate my meanings get these rambling replies…where  not finding the right words to make the point..have to settle for my suggesting what my point is..LOL I researched it and there is now a NAME might apply  . P.A.N.E.S   for Persistant Adverse Neurological Effects Stopping SSRI’s I post any articles, I have found about it… Thanks for posting it.  Maybe if it is an actual website I can add my own story to it.  Some of the symptoms described on that site are similar to mine – disinhibition (?), mild irritability and a mild facial tic. Disinhibition,  where you  have no qualms about doing or saying in public what you normally be too inhibited to do or say, due to social conventions or your own personal code when normal. . so do a  goggle search using  P.A.N.E.S  will produce one or more of the articles on it for you.. I think I know how scared you must be. (I am) I’m very scared. I just don’t know how much damage it has done, and since I’m in my mid-thirties, will this effect multiply as I lose more cells due to aging? This whole thing is freaking me out. I been trying out and getting some relief, with dietary changes… then supplementing big time with a bunch of vitamins..etc.  I am now looking into idea a gluten intolerance or food intolerance of some kind made it so..I didnt metabolize meds like NORM,  and they got delivered to my brain in a toxic fashion..for me. What kind of vitamins do you take? Is it helping?  You mention gluten intolerance.. do you mean MSG and soy products. I read somewhere that they can also have an impact on the brain. Holistic healing…research on my part, is ongoing  big time…researching chelation,  YOGA supposed to help,  BREATHING improving circulation, anything….  However I just breached the tip of the iceberg in those areas… SSRIS are vascocontricters,  maybe prolonged use makes it remain constricted unless you do a lot of shit to open up airways.. why I am looking into ways of opening up breathing so more oxygen to brain.. might dissipate a little of this problem Only thing helped me in years…alternate remedies.alll  .one by one adding up to improvements.. Thanks for posting. I would be very interested in what kinds of remedies specifically you’re using. First I changed my diet, to a low carb, no sugar one. and that helped quite a bit. Then I took Evening Primrose, Omega 3, Calcium, Vitamin E…all recommended for PMS..plus this creme  Progestacare  made from Mexican Yam..containing Natural Progesteron,  and that helped some. Then I began walking, and that helped some. Then I added Vitamin B-100 complex and that helped two problems BIGTIME, the PMS and the depression. Drastic improvement within about 10 days of taking B-100. NO more horrific PMS since began taking B-100 about 4-5 months ago.  HUMONgous help to me. . Then I added vitamin A.with no noticable effect. I have Hashimotos Hypothyroidism, an autoimmune disorder incited disease and was reading how one can protect autoimmune system, with things like Magnesium, Selenium, Zinc, Tyrosine, and Vitamin C..so I added them and it was like night and day for me regards reaction to my environment… HELPED big time. Before taking them, my life was so awful.  I was so extraordinarily sensitive to my environment, what was going on outsdie me, had my full attention, because heightened sensitivity made me easily . annoyed and irritated and always always so easiluy inflamed .  Felt like I had no inner centeredness…so reactive to my environment never had the time or inner peace to be inside myself,  and no ability whatsoever to think through my reactions…just always reacting, with emotion, leading the way, not other way round.. Toward the end my body was reacting to everything outside as a threat, and increase my production of adrenalin…so constant state of fight response prevailed…..and in that state  blind by emotion, become irrational, stop thinking, stop articulating,  ADD big problem in that state.. Since I began taking the second batch too…I stopped reacting to most things…able to maintain my calm, not easily flamed and inflamed..feel much more centered,  in control, even keeled, not feeling  threatened by every little thing,  and with no more of that awful autoimmune response, blinding me with Feelings, cant think through…things way better regards this other problem. Doent improve the problme itself…but least its not compounded by awful stress response.makes it 5 times worse, regards articulation,  ADD, memory, word retrieval etc. Recently, it came to my attention alll my problems altogether are symptomatic of celiac disease…or gluten intolerance..which is an inability to metabloze some grains,   wheat, barley, oats..etc.. Upon that discovery, I changed my diet to gluten free….one…which I like better, cause except for breads, I never have like glutens much any way, but surre missed carb high foods like potatos..etc. Helped some too. We been having some discussion here of the role oxygen deprivation plays in depression.  Then i was feeling panicy about something, and getting paniced over feeling panicky when someone told me about the alt. nostril breathing..and it TOOK care of that problem.  Encouraged, I decided to see if some more experiements in this are  produce some improvement. Up to then I been walking, regular.  But, wanting to experiement some…I bought a bike..trying to, do something might cause rapid breathing… and being winded,  (here I having problems finding the words)  just doing something make my systme work harder and faster…you know where you get that exhilirated feeling from activity…and I find following more rigorous excersise like that… big improvement, though temporary with this problem we been discussing.  but immediately following rigorous exercise I have more clarity of thought,  more ability to articulate, less ADD…soon turns back to shit… but least I know how I can clear my mind up some…then MAKE important phone calls..or appointments for business matters. Lately I been busy, busy, busy, not much time for usenet, or on line activities…and I have notices it doesnt get so bad for me until I sit down at computer which has me  wondering if I am one of those people effected by the various emissions from computers..such I .NEED to house this thing..so NOT impaired by emission while using it!  LOL Do you happne to have to

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Response:

Question:

Ok what is with Zoloft? I am constantly on the bowel. At this rate I’ll be the next Twiggy! Is it my nerves or what? I have been on Zoloft (100mg) for five years now and I was alright. I never experienced this kind of cramping and explosion before! Since the increase of Zoloft (50mg) all I have to say is, "LORD HELP ME." Anyway, gotta run (you know where!) Zedexa

Response:

OMG I wrote bowel instead of bowl!!!!!!! Guess what I have on my mind! Red Faced and Cramped, Zedexa

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ok what is with Zoloft? I am constantly on the bowel. At this rate I’ll be the next Twiggy! Is it my nerves or what? I have been on Zoloft (100mg) for five years now and I was alright. I never experienced this kind of cramping and explosion before! Since the increase of Zoloft (50mg) all I have to say is, "LORD HELP ME." Anyway, gotta run (you know where!) Zedexa

Response:

Ok what is with Zoloft? I am constantly on the bowel. At this rate I’ll be the next Twiggy! Is it my nerves or what? I have been on Zoloft (100mg) for five years now and I was alright. I never experienced this kind of cramping and explosion before! Since the increase of Zoloft (50mg) all I have to say is, "LORD HELP ME." Anyway, gotta run (you know where!) Zedexa

I’m so sorry you aren’t feeling well Zedexa!  I wish I could help you with the side effects of Zoloft, but I was only on it for one or two days, I think, and that was 5 yrs. ago.  I hope you feel better soon! Hugs, Di

Response:

That’s always awful to suffer through, I’m sorry to hear your reacting that way!  Since you’ve been on the Zoloft and this was just an increase, hopefully it should clear up in a few days.  Maybe you have a stomach bug? The cramping sounds like it could be. Take care of yourself and drink plenty of fluids!  :) -Alan — Alan Derrick

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ok what is with Zoloft? I am constantly on the bowel. At this rate I’ll be the next Twiggy! Is it my nerves or what? I have been on Zoloft (100mg) for five years now and I was alright. I never experienced this kind of cramping and explosion before! Since the increase of Zoloft (50mg) all I have to say is, "LORD HELP ME." Anyway, gotta run (you know where!) Zedexa I’m so sorry you aren’t feeling well Zedexa!  I wish I could help you with the side effects of Zoloft, but I was only on it for one or two days, I think, and that was 5 yrs. ago.  I hope you feel better soon! Hugs, Di

Response:

Hi Zedexa, I was very worried about this possible side effect, since my trigger on the anxiety was bowel related problems.  What I have done and been very religious about, is make sure I get loads of fiber in the diet.  I take care of this easily with All Bran cereal (you have to mix it up with another cereal you will actually like, or put other stuff in it).  I noticed a slight "loosening" of things when I began the zoloft, but have not had any D (knock on toilet bowl).  I’ve read that the bowel is a muscle, and in order to work it out, we need the fiber in there so it has something to clamp down on.  Maybe this will help. Mary

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – That’s always awful to suffer through, I’m sorry to hear your reacting that way!  Since you’ve been on the Zoloft and this was just an increase, hopefully it should clear up in a few days.  Maybe you have a stomach bug? The cramping sounds like it could be. Take care of yourself and drink plenty of fluids!  :) -Alan — Alan Derrick Ok what is with Zoloft? I am constantly on the bowel. At this rate I’ll be the next Twiggy! Is it my nerves or what? I have been on Zoloft (100mg) for five years now and I was alright. I never experienced this kind of cramping and explosion before! Since the increase of Zoloft (50mg) all I have to say is, "LORD HELP ME." Anyway, gotta run (you know where!) Zedexa I’m so sorry you aren’t feeling well Zedexa!  I wish I could help you with the side effects of Zoloft, but I was only on it for one or two days, I think, and that was 5 yrs. ago.  I hope you feel better soon! Hugs, Di

Response:

Ok what is with Zoloft? I am constantly on the bowel. At this rate I’ll be the next Twiggy! Is it my nerves or what? I have been on Zoloft (100mg) for five years now and I was alright. I never experienced this kind of cramping and explosion before! Since the increase of Zoloft (50mg) all I have to say is, "LORD HELP ME." Anyway, gotta run (you know where!) Zedexa

Hi Zedexa, Zoloft, like all SSRIs, alters the movement of serotonin. While its target is the small amount used by the brain, it also affects serotonin pathways in the body. Most serotonin is actually made/used by the gut (about 95%), another few percent is found in blood vessels and the skin also contains some, especially if its injured (burns/sunburn/infection etc). It should settle down. If you have upped the dose by 50mg in one go, then you might want to cut back and ramp it up more slowly. However, get your doc to check on this, it may be something else. Probably not, but you never know. And if it becomes an ongoing problem, then  consider changing to a tricyclic. But, be warned, they usually cause the opposite effect – constipation. Good luck                                               Zu

Response:

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi there i take xanax 0.5mgs 4 x day..I just started celexa today to hel p with the obsessive thought patterns i seem to get into…I started at 10mgs..I understand i am supposed to ween off xanax..but by how much?? Tonight i am going to cut my usual pill in half making my daily dose .25 less then regular..how long should i maintain this before reducing more?? My shrink is on holidays and i finally got up enough courage to try a new med….sheesh shitty timing on my part.. also is it ok to advil for headaches while on these meds? I also take 40mgs a day of propanolol…thanks Shannon oh and please dont tell me bad stuff about celexa like side effects etc..or else i will think i have them and stop the meds….please only good stuff Thanks

Shannon, You shouldn’t wean off Xanax while weaning on Celexa. Xanax helps you avoiding initial Celexa side effects which you’re so afraid of. So you’d better wait till Celexa is working properly. You can take Advil for headaches with your other meds but it might be a good question to consider whether your headache is’t an anxiety symptom too which may disappear when the Celexa will have kicked in (which may take a while, up to eight weeks although beneficial effect may come much earlier). Philip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – —

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi there i take xanax 0.5mgs 4 x day..I just started celexa today to hel p with the obsessive thought patterns i seem to get into…I started at 10mgs..I understand i am supposed to ween off xanax..but by how much?? Tonight i am going to cut my usual pill in half making my daily dose .25 less then regular..how long should i maintain this before reducing more?? My shrink is on holidays and i finally got up enough courage to try a new med….sheesh shitty timing on my part.. also is it ok to advil for headaches while on these meds? I also take 40mgs a day of propanolol…thanks Shannon oh and please dont tell me bad stuff about celexa like side effects etc..or else i will think i have them and stop the meds….please only good stuff Thanks

Shannon –   I’ll start with the positive report that I’ve been on Zoloft (another SSRI like Celexa) for 10 weeks with no big problems with side-effects…I have another friend who’s fiancee is on Celexa and loves it!  Also, I’ve been on Xanax and Zoloft the entire time and have taken Advil several times with no problems…   As far as the Xanax weening, take your time…I was taking .25 mg/ 6 times a day…I am now down to three…First things first, I would not reduce your Xanax for at least several weeks so that you have time to adjust to the Celexa and see some results (the AD’s will not do anything for several weeks).  From my doctor’s advice and my own experience I recommend the following to ensure no problems:  Reduce your intake by no more than .25 mg/week…The best thing to do is to stop taking it first at times when you normally feel least anxious (for me the bedtime dose went first)…Also, DON’T feel like you must adhere to your reduced dosage…If you are having breakthrough problems (as per me the last few days), I’ve found you are much better off taking the extra dose that day so that you don’t aggrevate your situation…You should be able to go to your reduced dose as soon as your breakthrough ends… Hope this all helps… — Charles Phipps

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi there i take xanax 0.5mgs 4 x day..I just started celexa today to hel p with the obsessive thought patterns i seem to get into…I started at 10mgs..I understand i am supposed to ween off xanax..but by how much?? Shannon oh and please dont tell me bad stuff about celexa like side effects etc..or else i will think i have them and stop the meds….please only good stuff Thanks Shannon –  I’ll start with the positive report that I’ve been on Zoloft (another SSRI like Celexa) for 10 weeks with no big problems with side-effects…I have another friend who’s fiancee is on Celexa and loves it!  Also, I’ve been on Xanax and Zoloft the entire time and have taken Advil several times with no problems…  As far as the Xanax weening, take your time…I was taking .25 mg/ 6 times a day…I am now down to three…First things first, I would not reduce your Xanax for at least several weeks so that you have time to adjust to the Celexa and see some results (the AD’s will not do anything for several weeks).  From my doctor’s advice and my own experience I recommend the following to ensure no problems:  Reduce your intake by no more than .25 mg/week…The best thing to do is to stop taking it first at times when you normally feel least anxious (for me the bedtime dose went first)…Also, DON’T feel like you must adhere to your reduced dosage…If you are having breakthrough problems (as per me the last few days), I’ve found you are much better off taking the extra dose that day so that you don’t aggrevate your situation…You should be able to go to your reduced dose as soon as your breakthrough ends… Hope this all helps… — Charles Phipps

Hi Shannon! I’m only 6 weeks ahead of you! Just Xanax and Celexa-not the other one. I didn’t even discuss weaning for the 1st 4 weeks when everything started kicking in with the Celexa. My doc said I’d probably "know" when it was time and she was right. Now that the Celexa is working, the Xanax actually works like it does for people without panic-I get too sleepy! And like Charles, I’ve had moments or a day when I had to take that extra .25mg after not having it-just try to go with the flow, which will probably be your mood eventually anyway. Just take it a day at a time. BTW, I was on 3mgs a day total of Xanax for almost 3 years-I’m down to 2.25mgs a day and everythings been just fine. Celexa does work well. Try to get back to me when you want to know about any of the less pretty aspects…most were transient and not bad at all. I thought it was helpful to find people who had the same reactions. Otherwise, I think I would have been more paranoid. Let me know. Denise – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

Hi there i take xanax 0.5mgs 4 x day..I just started celexa today to hel p with the obsessive thought patterns i seem to get into…I started at 10mgs..I understand i am supposed to ween off xanax..but by how much?? Tonight i am going to cut my usual pill in half making my daily dose .25 less then regular..how long should i maintain this before reducing more?? My shrink is on holidays and i finally got up enough courage to try a new med….sheesh shitty timing on my part.. also is it ok to advil for headaches while on these meds? I also take 40mgs a day of propanolol…thanks Shannon oh and please dont tell me bad stuff about celexa like side effects etc..or else i will think i have them and stop the meds….please only good stuff Thanks — Shannon the Barbarian ~*Note To Self : Never, ever post to a Newsgroup again without Headgear and Full Body Armor*~

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi there i take xanax 0.5mgs 4 x day..I just started celexa today to hel p with the obsessive thought patterns i seem to get into…I started at 10mgs..I understand i am supposed to ween off xanax..but by how much?? Tonight i am going to cut my usual pill in half making my daily dose .25 less then regular..how long should i maintain this before reducing more?? My shrink is on holidays and i finally got up enough courage to try a new med….sheesh shitty timing on my part.. also is it ok to advil for headaches while on these meds? I also take 40mgs a day of propanolol…thanks Shannon oh and please dont tell me bad stuff about celexa like side effects etc..or else i will think i have them and stop the meds….please only good stuff Thanks

Hi Shannon, In my opinion this is not the time to be weaning off your Xanax. Most people while weaning on a anti-depressant use a benzo to help them. If you start getting funny physical sensations, you might blame the Celexa when it is really being caused by weaning off Xanax. Who told you that you had to wean off Xanax? I really advise you against decreasing your Xanax dose as of this time. You need to talk to your therapist when he gets back from holiday. I do not recommend taking Advil with the Propanolol. I would call your doctor and discuss this with him. There is a possible interaction if you take the two, and that is a decreased anti-hypertensive effect of the Propanolol. Tylenol should be fine. I think I answered you questions without saying anything bad about the Celexa…..<G!!!! Good luck!! Jackie "Strange as it may seem, my life is based on a true story

Response:

Question:

First, you should never ever stop taking your meds "cold turkey"  You must be weened off by your doc. I quit taking zoloft after I was in remission and then I started on a downward spiral. I’m back on thank God. I don’t know how long you took them , but it can take up to several months to feel an effect. Regardless, if it is not working, your doc can help you switch to something else. Lia

Response:

I had no side effects with Dothiepin except cotton-mouth. My friend was on mega-doses of Doxepin as well with no major side effects except for yours but he was able to counter it with a fibre supplement. The *tryptyline drugs are some of the older tricyclics, maybe a newer one would work without the problems. Still, getting a doctor to prescibe it can be an issue. I argued with mine about it but she seems sold on the SSRI’s. The point is moot now as I haven’t had anything for months. Regards, Trevor Ida Kern <clooney…@mindspring.com

wrote in message

news:7if9pn$jv4$1@nntp4.atl.mindspring.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Trevor Lampre <tlam…@camtech.net.au

wrote in message

> > I liked good old Dothiepin for depression but it’s no longer part > > of the in-crowd as it is a tricyclic not an SSRI. I’ve not seen tricyclics

mentioned much in terms of OCD. Me neither. However, one of the best drugs I have ever taken has been Pamelor (Nortriptyline), which is a tricylic. I slept well and ate well and did

not

obsess. Unfortunately, it’s major side effect was that it prevented me from taking

a

healthy constitutional! I tried everything I could think of to stay on

this

medicine but the side effects overwhelmed me and I had to switch to a

SSRI.

They help, but I loved the Pamelor. Ida

Response:

Trevor Lampre <tlam…@camtech.net.au

wrote in message I liked good old Dothiepin for depression but it’s no longer part of the in-crowd as it is a tricyclic not an SSRI. I’ve not seen tricyclics mentioned much in terms of OCD.

Me neither. However, one of the best drugs I have ever taken has been Pamelor (Nortriptyline), which is a tricylic. I slept well and ate well and did not obsess. Unfortunately, it’s major side effect was that it prevented me from taking a healthy constitutional! I tried everything I could think of to stay on this medicine but the side effects overwhelmed me and I had to switch to a SSRI. They help, but I loved the Pamelor. Ida

Response:

hugs wrapped in a hug: ( kbeth (kb…@asan.com) wrote:

: *HUGS* : -kbeth    ) : On Tue, 25 May 1999 01:34:47 GMT, jl…@gte.com wrote: :

:

Well, I quit taking Zoloft last week because I don’t feel like it’s

:

helping me that much (been wondering if I need a different SSRI). I

:

know it takes awhile for it to get out of the system, but I’ve been

:

totally nuts ever since. I quit seeing my therapist about 6 weeks ago,

:

too — I just did not like her at all (she didn’t "care", IMO). I

:

really, really need to find a good therapist — this past weekend had

:

some very, very dark moments.  I feel very depressed for some

:

reason (as opposed to being anxious — which I still am, but the

:

depression seems more overwhelming these days).

:

:

My husband talked me into starting back on the Zoloft today (after I

:

*begged* him this morning not to go to work today (( ).

:

:

Just venting I guess — I know there’s nothing anyone can do.

:

:

Lisa

— —————————————————— some people say I got no patience. I got lots of patience. I can wait all day for someone else to Brew the Coffee….

Response:

In article <374a0b6…@news.camtech.net.au

, "Trevor Lampre"

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -<tlam…@camtech.net.au

wrote: Zoloft is an antidepressant so in stopping taking it you have exposed yourself to a downhill slide. The Zoloft might not have been helping with the OCD but it probably was helping the depression. The SSRI’s are strange drugs. They are very selective in how they affect different people, what works for one may not work for another. I confounded my GP with my complaints about the side effects of Zoloft, Luvox and Serzone. I liked good old Dothiepin for depression but it’s no longer part of the in-crowd as it is a tricyclic not an SSRI. I’ve not seen tricyclics mentioned much in terms of OCD. Interactions with doctors are just as problematic. Having a sense of trust and rapport with your therapist is important. I had seen two counselors over the years before my current one. They were as thick as two short planks and I didn’t see them for long. You are quite right to stop seeing one you don’t get on with but please make an effort to find a new one. Don’t cut off your nose to spite your face. If the Zoloft wasn’t worsening your OCD but did help with the depression I’d say to stay on it until you get new medical advice. Go and see a GP (or whoever does this sort of thing where you are) and discuss a change of med. If you still had anxiety you might want to add an anxiolytic such as Xanax to the Zoloft mix or perhaps switch to Luvox but discuss it with a doctor first. Switching meds can be hard. You normally have to wait a week or two depending on your dosage levels to get the old drug out of your system before starting a new one and then it takes a couple of weeks for the new one to have an effect. Regards, Trevor <jl…@gte.com wrote in message news:374bfc28.2519205@news.gte.net… Well, I quit taking Zoloft last week because I don’t feel like it’s helping me that much (been wondering if I need a different SSRI). I know it takes awhile for it to get out of the system, but I’ve been totally nuts ever since. I quit seeing my therapist about 6 weeks ago, too — I just did not like her at all (she didn’t "care", IMO). I really, really need to find a good therapist — this past weekend had some very, very dark moments.  I feel very depressed for some reason (as opposed to being anxious — which I still am, but the depression seems more overwhelming these days). My husband talked me into starting back on the Zoloft today (after I *begged* him this morning not to go to work today (( ). Just venting I guess — I know there’s nothing anyone can do. Lisa

Additionally, it is said that it takes 2-3 months on the SSRI’s to see OCD relief…I don’t know how long you’ve been on it, but it may pay to stay on if the side effects are not bad, as it is helping your depression now and could very well help your OCD later… — Charles Phipps cphi…@roadhog.com

Response:

Hi it doesn’t sound like a too good idea to me to AND quit the therapist AND the meds at the same time. I have no idea how long you’d been on the Zoloft but it takes long time for SSRI’s to be efficient on OCD symptoms, most people mention at least 10 weeks on the proper dosage… Also it might not be the proper SSRI, it took me three trials before actually finding something (Luvox) that seem to be working. I know how very difficult it all is. If you have OCD you should get in touch with the OCD Foundation (they have a Web site with all kind of infos on how to reach them etc…) and ask them for the adress of a trained CBT therapist near you. I don’t know what your symptms are but talk therapy doesn’t do much for OCD. I have been in talk therapy for over 2 years, even though it has given me some insight on some other problems, it didn’t help at all the OCD. Hang in there, it’s tough but you can get better, Cecile – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -<jl…@gte.com

wrote in message news:374bfc28.2519205@news.gte.net… Well, I quit taking Zoloft last week because I don’t feel like it’s helping me that much (been wondering if I need a different SSRI). I know it takes awhile for it to get out of the system, but I’ve been totally nuts ever since. I quit seeing my therapist about 6 weeks ago, too — I just did not like her at all (she didn’t "care", IMO). I really, really need to find a good therapist — this past weekend had some very, very dark moments.  I feel very depressed for some reason (as opposed to being anxious — which I still am, but the depression seems more overwhelming these days). My husband talked me into starting back on the Zoloft today (after I *begged* him this morning not to go to work today (( ). Just venting I guess — I know there’s nothing anyone can do. Lisa

Response:

Hi Lisa From my personnal experience I know that it takes about 10 weeks for the medication to start working and I know that it seems like forever. Hang in there.  Yes I think that it is very important to find a good therepist.  Make sure they deal with ocd.  Don’t give up because of one person I know there is someone who can help you.  It helped me to chat in support groups and talk to others dealing with the same problems.  You will feel better!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and when you do, you will get so much more joy out of life than ever before! Take Care

Response:

Zoloft is an antidepressant so in stopping taking it you have exposed yourself to a downhill slide. The Zoloft might not have been helping with the OCD but it probably was helping the depression. The SSRI’s are strange drugs. They are very selective in how they affect different people, what works for one may not work for another. I confounded my GP with my complaints about the side effects of Zoloft, Luvox and Serzone. I liked good old Dothiepin for depression but it’s no longer part of the in-crowd as it is a tricyclic not an SSRI. I’ve not seen tricyclics mentioned much in terms of OCD. Interactions with doctors are just as problematic. Having a sense of trust and rapport with your therapist is important. I had seen two counselors over the years before my current one. They were as thick as two short planks and I didn’t see them for long. You are quite right to stop seeing one you don’t get on with but please make an effort to find a new one. Don’t cut off your nose to spite your face. If the Zoloft wasn’t worsening your OCD but did help with the depression I’d say to stay on it until you get new medical advice. Go and see a GP (or whoever does this sort of thing where you are) and discuss a change of med. If you still had anxiety you might want to add an anxiolytic such as Xanax to the Zoloft mix or perhaps switch to Luvox but discuss it with a doctor first. Switching meds can be hard. You normally have to wait a week or two depending on your dosage levels to get the old drug out of your system before starting a new one and then it takes a couple of weeks for the new one to have an effect. Regards, Trevor – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -<jl…@gte.com

wrote in message news:374bfc28.2519205@news.gte.net… Well, I quit taking Zoloft last week because I don’t feel like it’s helping me that much (been wondering if I need a different SSRI). I know it takes awhile for it to get out of the system, but I’ve been totally nuts ever since. I quit seeing my therapist about 6 weeks ago, too — I just did not like her at all (she didn’t "care", IMO). I really, really need to find a good therapist — this past weekend had some very, very dark moments.  I feel very depressed for some reason (as opposed to being anxious — which I still am, but the depression seems more overwhelming these days). My husband talked me into starting back on the Zoloft today (after I *begged* him this morning not to go to work today (( ). Just venting I guess — I know there’s nothing anyone can do. Lisa

Response:

*HUGS* -kbeth – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -On Tue, 25 May 1999 01:34:47 GMT, jl…@gte.com wrote:

Well, I quit taking Zoloft last week because I don’t feel like it’s helping me that much (been wondering if I need a different SSRI). I know it takes awhile for it to get out of the system, but I’ve been totally nuts ever since. I quit seeing my therapist about 6 weeks ago, too — I just did not like her at all (she didn’t "care", IMO). I really, really need to find a good therapist — this past weekend had some very, very dark moments.  I feel very depressed for some reason (as opposed to being anxious — which I still am, but the depression seems more overwhelming these days). My husband talked me into starting back on the Zoloft today (after I *begged* him this morning not to go to work today (( ). Just venting I guess — I know there’s nothing anyone can do. Lisa

Response:

Question:

Has anybody been on Effexor? I have been on it since November and I have recently figured out it is the cause of the strange symptoms I’ve been having. I have been bothered by mouth ulcers that make eating and drinking almost anything painful. I also get very hot with the least little bit of exertion. And it also was part of the cause of the strange dreams I was having, as well as the dizziness. I think the Effexor along with the Ginko Balboa I was trying did not do well together. Since I stopped taking the Ginko Balboa, neither one has bothered me as bad. Anyway, my question is: has anyone taken Effexor? I need to know how to taper off, because I hear the withdrawl can be bad. I was taking 225mg and have gone down to 150mg, as of two days ago, but am afraid to cut back anymore. I have a job and a family, and I don’t need to hallucinate or be sick right now! If anyone has any advice I’d appreciate it. Michele

Response:

Hi Michelle I was just prescribed this wonder drug ang I was so dizzy and sick to my stomach so I cut my per down to 1/2 a pill twice a day.It was prescribed for neurogenic pain and muscle spasms.I wanted Neurontin but the doc said this had less side effects!As far as I can see,all it is,is an antidepressant.What did you get it prescribed for?225 mg is the maximum dosage.Your doctor really started you off with a bang. What do you think is a better alternative? Carol — Posted via Talkway – http://www.talkway.com Exchange ideas on practically anything ™.

Response:

the smart thing to do is to call your doctor. you shouldnt be looking to non-medical people for such important info! @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ Be Well, Lisa anti-spam in effect. remove 123 from my address. "Please explain to me the scientific nature of ‘The Whammy’" – Scully "The dope’s that there’s still hope." – Bruce Springsteen @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

Response:

I have called my doctor, but I thought I would see how other people got off it while I was waiting for him to call me back. Michele

Response:

I have called my doctor, but I thought I would see how other people got off it

while I was waiting for him to call me back.

I just quit.  Didn’t suffer for it.  Were there more specific questions you have? Dabrinah

Response:

Question:

I’ve no idea about the relative pressures involved, but perhaps someone here could cast a bit of light? Maybe by studying old saxophonists we could make a guess about the long-term effects of CPAP without doing the experiment the slow way. Perhaps, but you have to be able to establish: 1. That damage to the lungs is occurring

This will be complicated by existing pulmonary disease, since existing disease is difficult to differentiate from barotrauma.

2. That said damage is by CPAP, and not by the apnea or   other possible causes.

This could most be deduced by pulmonary markers before and after use of CPAP. If you don’t know the complete and comprehensive state of your pulmonary health prior to CPAP use, then any pulmonary damage subsequent to CPAP use will be difficult to trace, er, Tracey.

3. That if CPAP damage does occur, it is does substantially   more damage than either other forms of (possibly ineffective)   treatments, or by leaving the apnea untreated.

This has got to be the most penetrating statement I have ever heard.  This is the epiphany.  Weighing the risks.  Therefore, weighing *all* the risks is better than only having some of the more palatable risks available for scrutiny.

For example, my CPAP setting is set at 9cm, but the negative pressure measured in my lungs without CPAP hovered around -28cm. You’d have to devise a study which could figure out which pressure was the problematic one— the high negative pressure before, or the low positive pressure after. Not sure if saxophone players would necessarily be a good study group either. They may have a great deal of negative pressure, rather than positive.

Although, barotrauma in device therapy can likely be found *most* during exhalation phases of respiration, when there is the most opposition of forces. Maybe a CPAP that could hit an A sharp?

Quite frankly, designing a good study is hard, and takes a great deal of expertise and background knowledge in the area– as I know, having just completed some research of my own, and watched it be picked apart by collegues. T Sconyers

It is easy for device manufacturers and even clinicians to poo poo barotrauma in device therapy, since it IS a slow process, and since there is no better treatment for sleep apnea available today (though the corporation does run the tenor of treatment). We hope it is such a slow process as to be inconsequential within a normal lifespan. But, a lifetime has not passed since the advent of the first CPAP (someone born then is now an older teenager). Cigarette packages must contain caveats about cancer, but medical ventilators do not have to mention barotrauma. Whodathunk Doug

Response:

In article <1998052201452400.VAA28…@ladder03.news.aol.com

,

        polkano…@aol.com (PolkaNoble) wrote:

Saxophonists do get a lot of negative pressure, especially when they play out of tune.   We have a lot of other jokes about tubas, piccolos, and alto horns (among others) but positive pressure is used to blow ALL wind instruments except the harmonica which does use negative pressure for some of its notes. Not sure if saxophone players would necessarily be a good<BR study group either. They may have a great deal of negative<BR pressure, snip

Positive for the wind instrument, negative for the player, yes? My main point is that when you play an instrument, you are exhaling forcefully. When you are using CPAP, you are inhaling forcefully. May not be the same thing. Oh course, if you were to hook up a CPAP to a piccolo, then you may have an adequate study T Sconyers

Response:

Since these ideas are thrown around rather liberally . . . As I perceive it, "positive pressure" is any pressure exerted that is higher than atmospheric pressure.  "Negative pressure" is any pressure exerted that is lower than atmospheric pressure. If you blow through a straw, then this is positive pressure, and blowing a "dent" in the top of your coke shows that there is higher pressure than atmospheric pressure.  Your lungs are strong enough to overcome outside pressure, and can push air out the lungs into the outside air, which is positive pressure. Negative pressure is sucking through a straw.  Here, the expanding mouth or lungs make it so that atmospheric pressure pushes air into the mouth.  The mouth or lungs here generate negative pressure until the mouth or lungs are filled with outside air. Air will always go from the positive side to the negative side. Positive pressure will blow leaves off of a sidewalk; negative pressure will suck pennies into a vacuum cleaner. Technically, pressure is based upon number of air molecules per volume.  If the volume is increased (inhalation) then air density goes down, gets thinner, and this is negative pressure, allowing external air to fill the lungs.  If there is upper airway obstruction, then the lungs can still expand (try to expand), increasing the volume, creating a negative pressure, even though outside positive pressure will not be permitted to enter the lungs (until that almighty awakening to lighter sleep!). Therefore, inhalation, or any attempts at inhalation, generate negative pressure within the lungs. Exhalation, or any attempts at exhalation, generate positive pressure within the lungs. **************************************************

Response:

Doug, Your explaination of positive and negative pressure is exactly the same as I assumed in my posts, wordplay on psycological positive and negative pressure is a musician’s little joke.  Anyone playing out of tune would be subject to "negative pressure" from his peers. Maybe I didn’t read your post closely enough, or missed a post.  Clarify  a question if you will.  It seems to me that, given the structure of the laungs, the negative pressure exerted when an apneic attempts to breathe in would do far more damage than the same amount of positive pressure from a CPAP.  I can easily believe negative pressures of 25 to 35 cm H2O are generated by such an attempt. As you have pointed out, the treatment may have a downside, but it is far better than the disease. PolkaNoble (Max Tunnell)

Response:

In article <1998052514222500.KAA06…@ladder03.news.aol.com

,

  polkano…@aol.com (PolkaNoble) wrote:

Doug, Your explaination of positive and negative pressure is exactly the same as I assumed in my posts, wordplay on psycological positive and negative pressure is a musician’s little joke.  Anyone playing out of tune would be subject to "negative pressure" from his peers.

In your posts, that pun did give me pause to grin.

Maybe I didn’t read your post closely enough, or missed a post.  Clarify  a question if you will.  It seems to me that, given the structure of the laungs, the negative pressure exerted when an apneic attempts to breathe in would do far more damage than the same amount of positive pressure from a CPAP.  I can easily believe negative pressures of 25 to 35 cm H2O are generated by such an attempt. As you have pointed out, the treatment may have a downside, but it is far better than the disease.

Inhalation does indeed cause negative pressure within the lungs, and this pressure remains negative until the inhalation is complete. Exhalation, on the other hand, involves a natural recoil of lung tissues, and generates a positive intrapulmonary pressure.  Exhalation does not use any muscles, unless ventilation is challenged.  Recoil of the lung occurs naturally from interstitial elastin fibers as well as the attraction of alveolar surfactant molecules to each other (surface tension of the alveolar spheres).  Within the thorax, a lung will collapse in exhalation until the pleural suction ceases the implosion, which leaves an alveolar pressure equal to that of the atmosphere.  Outside of the thorax, a lung will collapse until its air content is completely emptied.  Therefore, it is natural for a lung to collapse. Negative pressures found in inhalation keep the alveoli from "fully" inflating until inhalation is complete.  Even at peak inspiration found in resting-respiration the alveolar compliment is never fully inflated. Therefore, the negative pressure of inhalation against obstruction may actually prevent the alveoli from distending, which becomes more prominent upon *exhalation*. The unrelieved negative pressure of obstructed inhalation may make an alveolus more prone, actually, to "collapse", which is in fact its natural tendency.  An alveolus naturally wishes to collapse in microscopic convolutions owing to attractive forces of its surfactant (WOW!).  Intrapulmonary negative pressure would tend to suck an alveolus in rather than distend it out. Therefore, since of issue is *distension* of an alveolus, the only thing that can cause distension is *exhalation*, and, in particular, vigorous exhalation, to where there is now inordinate *positive* pressure relative to pleural pressure.  Mechanical inflation of a torpid lung is also positive pressure. Personally, I believe you are right that excessive negative pressures found in obstructive breathing can create pulmonary trauma itself, though this type of trauma I could not speculate upon.  It could be reverse-distensive trauma, although reverse distension might most resemble alveolar collapse, which is a natural tendency.  It could be capillary compression and ensuing changes in circulatory rates, etc.  Inspiring against obstruction likely facilitates ongoing implosion of the upper airway.  I can only believe that much COPD found in apnea stems from such alveolar distortions as inhalations against obstruction. Using CPAP has got to be better than not using it — if for nothing else than quality of life.  If CPAP were not so lucrative, tracheostomy would be challenged and perfected.  Any longterm consequences of CPAP await to be seen, which we hope are negligible or non-existent over a normal lifespan. Doug —–== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==—– http://www.dejanews.com/   Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading

Response:

In article <6kcau7$eu…@nnrp1.dejanews.com

,

        dr…@inovion.com wrote: <description of pressure in lungs deleted

Doug, can you cite references for this? T Sconyers

Response:

<description of pressure in lungs deleted Doug, can you cite references for this?

Tracy, the first paragraph comes from information in a physician- reference series of books known as the CIBA Collection, volume Respiratory System. Information regarding barotrauma and alveolar distension (volutrauma) comes from studies I have already posted to the group. The remainder was opinion, which I would claim is in-part extrapolation from these sources. Doug

Response:

I’ve seen remarks here about CPAP-related barotrauma, and I’ve heard elsewhere that some long-term saxophone players report pulmonary trouble in later life. I’ve no idea about the relative pressures involved, but perhaps someone here could cast a bit of light? Maybe by studying old saxophonists we could make a guess about the long-term effects of CPAP without doing the experiment the slow way. — Ned nospam = elden

Response:

Since I am in my mid fifties, I have no personal experience on the subject, but I have been involved in community music for over 20 years.  There is antectdotal evidence that, to the contrary, wind instrument playing my be beneficial to the lungs. I have a number of friends in their seventies and eighties who are active players.  They have their share of health problems, but seldom, if ever, are they related to the lungs and heart problems seem to fewer than in the general population. This probably means nothing.  It is encouraging to me.  One of these is a very powerful professional trumpet player about my age with OSA and treated with CPAP.  I play baritone horn and tuba.  It seems that this training have strengthened our diaphram and intercostal muscles to make CPAP at relatively high pressure easier for us. In any case one old tuba-playing friend of mine who died about four years ago at age 80+ had a number of health problems but his doctor always thought the condition of his lungs was remarkably good.   I have no real proof, but I believe a study would reveal more benefits than problems from wind-instrument playing. PolkaNoble (Max Tunnell) "If Music be the food of love, play on"– The beginning of "Twelfth Night" by William Shakespere

Response:

In article <1998052118275100.OAA14…@ladder01.news.aol.com

,

  polkano…@aol.com (PolkaNoble) wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Since I am in my mid fifties, I have no personal experience on the subject, but I have been involved in community music for over 20 years.  There is antectdotal evidence that, to the contrary, wind instrument playing my be beneficial to the lungs. I have a number of friends in their seventies and eighties who are active players.  They have their share of health problems, but seldom, if ever, are they related to the lungs and heart problems seem to fewer than in the general population. This probably means nothing.  It is encouraging to me.  One of these is a very powerful professional trumpet player about my age with OSA and treated with CPAP.  I play baritone horn and tuba.  It seems that this training have strengthened our diaphram and intercostal muscles to make CPAP at relatively high pressure easier for us. In any case one old tuba-playing friend of mine who died about four years ago at age 80+ had a number of health problems but his doctor always thought the condition of his lungs was remarkably good. I have no real proof, but I believe a study would reveal more benefits than problems from wind-instrument playing.

Little is really known about barotrauma (or Barry Manilow).  The comprehensive study to-date comes from the journal *Intensive Care Radiology*, in an article titled simply "Barotrauma" (1996, Yale). I’m not sure what they meant, but the study said: "Using intermittent positive pressure breeathing (IPPB) in dogs, Ovenfors found that grossly visible PIE [pulmonary interstitial emphysema] occurred regularly with PIP [peak inspiratory pressure] between 30 and 35 cm H2O.  At 25 cm H2O of peak pressure, PIE was not observed grossly, but it was present microscopically if the IPPB was continued for 12 hours or more . . . . The inspiratory pressures required to produce PIE in humans are not exactly known, but it probably occurs at approximately the same levels as in experimental animals.  Because the normal lung is inflated to total capacity with transpulmonary pressures of 35 cm H2O, it is conceivable that damaged alveoli could rupture even before such pressures are reached. . . . It is an emerging concept supported by recent studies that alveolar overdistention, so called "volutrauma," may play a more significant role than peak inspiratory pressure in the development of barotrauma." So that, barotrauma may be complex.  In placing a balloon into a beer bottle, you can exert very high pressures and not damage the balloon; however, take it out of the bottle, and lesser pressures will distend and pop the balloon.  So this new term "volutrauma" seems to be the appropriate paradigm with regards to barotrauma. Barotrauma from wind instruments may depend upon the nature of the thoracic cage and its ability to support pulmonary structures and prevent alveolar distension.  It may depend upon the way the musician breathes — whether diaphramatically, or by utilizing the higher lungs and intercostal musculature of respiration.  It might depend upon the wind instrument itself, or the number of gigs or jam sessions amassed.  It may depend upon preexisting pulmonary disease as well. Furthermore, the idea of barotrauma has never been clear.  Critical care settings have always regarded it only as pleural rupture or a literal tear of the sack about the lungs.  New medicine suggests subtle damage to the alveolar wall constitutes barotrauma and that it is far more discrete.  Therefore, a wind musician could conceivably have subtle barotrauma, say, with dyspnea, but not be regarded as having barotrauma by traditional markers of airleak phenomena in the lungs. There is at least one medical study documenting barotrauma in a partygoer who blew up several dozen balloons. With regards to wind instruments, much like they did in the balloon study, they determined how many cm H20 pressure it would take to blow up one balloon (or to blow a high note out of a horn?!) and then make comparisons with pressures used in positive pressure ventilation. We will get nowhere with barotrauma until mainstream medicine regards it as a subtle process only discernable microscopically, and with the ability to differentiate it from underlying pulmonary disease. Doug —–== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==—– http://www.dejanews.com/   Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading

Response:

In article <wluJzBA+qAZ1E…@elden.demon.co.uk

,

        Ned Clack <N…@nospam.demon.co.uk

wrote: I’ve seen remarks here about CPAP-related barotrauma, and I’ve heard elsewhere that some long-term saxophone players report pulmonary trouble in later life. I’ve no idea about the relative pressures involved, but perhaps someone here could cast a bit of light? Maybe by studying old saxophonists we could make a guess about the long-term effects of CPAP without doing the experiment the slow way.

Perhaps, but you have to be able to establish: 1. That damage to the lungs is occurring 2. That said damage is by CPAP, and not by the apnea or    other possible causes. 3. That if CPAP damage does occur, it is does substantially    more damage than either other forms of (possibly ineffective)    treatments, or by leaving the apnea untreated. For example, my CPAP setting is set at 9cm, but the negative pressure measured in my lungs without CPAP hovered around -28cm. You’d have to devise a study which could figure out which pressure was the problematic one— the high negative pressure before, or the low positive pressure after. Not sure if saxophone players would necessarily be a good study group either. They may have a great deal of negative pressure, rather than positive. Quite frankly, designing a good study is hard, and takes a great deal of expertise and background knowledge in the area– as I know, having just completed some research of my own, and watched it be picked apart by collegues. T Sconyers – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

– Ned nospam = elden

Response:

Saxophonists do get a lot of negative pressure, especially when they play out of tune.   We have a lot of other jokes about tubas, piccolos, and alto horns (among others) but positive pressure is used to blow ALL wind instruments except the harmonica which does use negative pressure for some of its notes. We do sometimes refer to a bad player in terms that equate to "negative pressure", but that is strictly figuratively speaking (grin). Still, I will pass on the negative pressure comment to some Sax Men I know with a since of humor (It helps to have one if you play the sax–See what I mean?) I’ll see if there is some info on exactly how much pressure is generated for instruments in various ranges.  I believe studies have been done on that.   I suspect that for most instruments ( high trumpet excepted) the pressure will be considerably below the 28cm H2O you referred to, probably below 15, and it would be positive. PolkaNoble (Max Tunnell) "The Heckelphone is an ill wind that nobody blows good"– Attributed to Auturo Toscannini but I doubt he said that exactly. T Sconyers wrote snip

Not sure if saxophone players would necessarily be a good<BR study group either. They may have a great deal of negative<BR pressure,

snip

Response:

I am on CPAP at 18cm. When I play sax or clarinet, it feels like much less resistance than the CPAP. Although the 18cm does feel a lot like a clarinet with a way-too-hard reed. regards, eric pearson er…@nospammindspring.com On 22 May 1998 01:45:24 GMT, polkano…@aol.com (PolkaNoble) wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Saxophonists do get a lot of negative pressure, especially when they play out of tune.   We have a lot of other jokes about tubas, piccolos, and alto horns (among others) but positive pressure is used to blow ALL wind instruments except the harmonica which does use negative pressure for some of its notes. We do sometimes refer to a bad player in terms that equate to "negative pressure", but that is strictly figuratively speaking (grin). Still, I will pass on the negative pressure comment to some Sax Men I know with a since of humor (It helps to have one if you play the sax–See what I mean?) I’ll see if there is some info on exactly how much pressure is generated for instruments in various ranges.  I believe studies have been done on that.   I suspect that for most instruments ( high trumpet excepted) the pressure will be considerably below the 28cm H2O you referred to, probably below 15, and it would be positive. PolkaNoble (Max Tunnell) "The Heckelphone is an ill wind that nobody blows good"– Attributed to Auturo Toscannini but I doubt he said that exactly. T Sconyers wrote snip Not sure if saxophone players would necessarily be a good<BR study group either. They may have a great deal of negative<BR pressure, snip

Response:

Question:

I’m cutting much of this because I only want to jump in on a couple points….

: Twas ever thus. I submit that the classic social unfairnesses : of teens have nothing to do with the rest of this discussion; : in that everybody knows that teens are not human, in either : the emotional nor the intellectual sense 8). : Do you think that with some witty repartee you can discard my entire : youth? A classical case of ueberdeckung: you try to down-play with : humor that which you know to be thorougly unacceptable. Mark, I sympathize with your evident pain, really I do.  But I have to ask if maybe you’re so lost in your own pain that you’re seeing invalidation where it doesn’t necessarily exist?  averti is right when he points out how universally cruel adolescents are to one another, and it’s a point that has been made repeatedly during this thread. But for whatever reason, you seem to find that reality—that intellectual context—to be an emotional threat to you. For example, when Blain recalled the incident from his past that started this whole discussion, he was explicitly clear about some things: that both he and Marla rejected each other, and that they both reacted immaturely, full in the callowness of youth.  But I have yet to see you acknowledge even in the *slightest* that Blain understands the position of being rejected.  Instead, even in later posts where you apologized for projecting, you still talked about your sympathy for poor rejected Marla and *not* for poor rejected Blain.  Why is that? Isn’t that a little bit invalidating to Blain’s experiences? Pointing out that teenagers are cruel to each other almost by definition doesn’t invalidate your pain, nor does it excuse that cruelty.  I think perhaps averti’s observation was meant to suggest that if you’re intending to talk about behavior patterns exhibited by society as a whole, then the behavior of teenagers may not be the best evidence for your discussion, since teenagers tend to have their own set of behavior patterns. : But, being the princess that : she is, it only lasts that one hour, until the next week. And I confronted : my therp on this. I asked him, "Hey, if your beautiful daughter has to live : through a tenth of what I have to experience each and all day for only a few : minute moments a week, and really hates it, then why is it okay for her to : do to me?" : : What is it that she does? Faint? Throw herself out the window? : Fling a large bag over you so as to blot out the sight? : Sigh, you do not seem to get it, do you? She does nothing–that is what makes it so : insidious. She is very sociable, she lights up a room with her presence, she never harmed : a fly, she has many friends, and she will marry one of them, be a great mother, have : lovely grandchildren, and the world around her will gladly agree that she has done : nothing wrong. Except, in the end, none of the things she did right, she did with me. : This is disturbing. You derive the non-rights of the ugly from assuming the opposite: : that pretty people have the right to treat ugly people as non-equals. It is the other way : around: the disturbing looking do not have the same right to have people react to them as : if they were pretty, but they have the same right not to be jugded on their appearance as : the pretty. : Uh huh. OK for you to patronize HER on the basis of what you : imagine she is really like… : She is what she does… Mark, here’s where I got really angry at you.  You’re directing a lot of anger at this girl who’s, what, 18 years younger than you?  You’re very clear up above that people shouldn’t be judged by their appearance. Yet on the basis of her attractive appearance, you are singling her out as a targte of your bitterness.  You dismissively refer to her as a "princess," you make a viciously snide comment about "whatever thoughts might be going through that pretty head of hers."  It’s the old prejudice that "if she’s attractive she can’t have a brain or any sort of compassionate nature."  *That’s* prejudice on your part, and if prejudice isn’t right for us to do to you, it’s not right for you to do to her! Also, you express a very specific bitterness that this one girl won’t be making any of her life choices to involve you.  You’re 34 and she’s in high school for goddess’ sake!  Even if you were the most handsome man on the planet, I sincerely *hope* that at this time in her life she wouldn’t be making romantic plans with a 34 year old…..  This girl may ignore you because you’re one of her father’s clients and her father has coached her about the necessity of professional distance so she treats you like all his clients.  She may ignore you because she ignores all adults. She may ignore you because she’s being shallow and prejudiced.  She may ignore you because she picks up on all the anger you’re directing towards her—if you had this kind of contempt for me *I’d* sure as hell stay the fuck away…..   And that’s all I’m going to say, because I’m still angry and I don’t want to start being nasty. Sherri

Response:

Now here I had this big dissertation about blame and responsibility, and averti went and spoiled it by being concise.

Hi, rosee! [...] Because choices are blame-free. Averti, do you really believe that? Yes, I do, because I make distinctions between _blame_ and _responsibility_. You are generally responsible for the consequences of thing you do; ”blame” implies guilt, and that just doesn’t apply in all situations.

Here’s another difference.  If I’m responsible for something, it’s a state; blame is laid *by* someone, even if it’s myself.  Of course, this can get frustratingly complicated with the convolutions of legal responsibilities, but still. This is one point that I will have to argue with you on.  Choices are not blame-free.  With each and every choice we make, in our lives, there is responsibility. Agreed.

Me, too. For example, the person that makes the choice to drive drunk, and kills somebody.  How can that be considered a choice that is blame-free? Not to be too nitpicky, it’s not the choice to drive drunk that’s the badness, it’s the killing somebody. What about all the other times the person choose to drive drunk and somehow got home without hitting anything or anybody? Same choice. You may certainly BLAME the person for causing a death, and the death is their responsibility.

I’m not sure I follow this, especially the first part.  If someone drives drunk and makes it home without harm, they’re still responsible for taking a high-risk action.  They’re not subject to blame because they weren’t caught, but does sliding behind the wheel increase the risks?  Sure. Can I blame someone for that?  Hey, I can blame anyone for anything I like.  I doubt anyone else can stop me short of stopping most of my bodily functions.  ("Stop me before I blame again!"??  Don’t even try.)  I think blame is a judgment, either on someone else or against myself. If we take that attitude, then what, we just turn around, pat the fellow on the head, and say, "oh that’s okay, you just made a choice." That’s a little simplistic, but basically what actually goes on is that if he doesn’t get into a wreck or get arrested, we don’t have the OPPORTUNITY to pat him on the head. We don’t know.

I agree, but I think you’re dodging the point.  Not being caught doesn’t negate responsibility. I for one think it’s deplorable to get into a state where you kill somebody else, but it’s none of my general business who drinks and drives or drinks and walks or drives like a maniac while cold sober. Until something bad happens.

You sure that’s what you meant to say? For each and every survivor, there is, at least, one person that made the choice to abuse. Not in my case. Not as I understand the meaning of ”choice.” My dad didn’t use a little kid for a punching bag due to some conscious choice he made. He did it because he didn’t know any better. He did it because he learned the practice from having been a punching bag himself.

Sorry to hear that for you, but that doesn’t mean that other people didn’t have better choices they could have taken, but didn’t.  I don’t believe in evil, but I’ve seen venial often enough. Are my inept, untrained, non-introspective parents to ”blame” for my various adult problems? I don’t think so.

I think a key question is "To blame by who?"  Do you blame them?  From what you write, no.  Could I blame them?  Sure, if the thought moved me. To say those choices were blame-free is, IMO, like saying they weren’t responsible for their actions. Hee. Not being religious, I have the handicap of failing to be interested in balancing the guilt books by assigning blame 8).

Plus, I don’t think being responsible has much to do with blame.  I know lots of people (my abusers among them) who say they’re responsible for everything, but don’t accept blame for anything. And I do that same thing, frequently.  I don’t like blame much and don’t think it has anywhere as much value as most people seem to. They made a choice, a bad choice, they were wrong, they deserve the blame that comes with it. If that’s the way you want to try to rectify things.

If you want to blame them, then you blame them.  You don’t need my permission, and my agreement doesn’t give your blame more weight. Do they deserve blame?  Again, the key question I see is "According to whom?"  People decide these things — blame is a value judgment. When my daughter told me she was pregnant, I had to make a choice.  Do I support her, in whatever she decides to do (have the baby and keep it, give it up for adoption, have an abortion), do I support her, conditionally (only if she chooses what I think she should choose), or do I toss her out on her ass, and tell her that she’s made her bed, now lie in it  (a term that I personally absolutely hate!) Yeah, it’s lying in bed (usually) that caused the problem in the first place 8).

I think they noticed. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So, we made the choice to support her, unconditionally, no matter what she decided, even if it was something we didn’t like. But, each of those choices held responsibility. Agreed. Now, if your choice turns out to have not been the best one, and additional trouble results, are you to ”blame?” And what do you do with this blame, anyway? Not quite so clear cut, as as the other examples above, but for me, if I had taken one of the other choices, I would be to blame for the damage that would have done to our relationship as mother and daughter. People who make mistakes are blame-worthy?  I don’t think we’re going to get very close on this one. _I_ am striving (mildly) for a world in which there is LESS blaming going on, and in which there are distinctions between malicious, evil behavior and just plain ole lousy judgement.

I agree strongly.  I’ve seen way too much blame for my tastes, usually for poor to nonexistent reasons. Much of it my own guilt and blame, of course.  I’m especially tired of second-guessing and guilt-assignment, especially by me. People make the choice, whether or not, to treat others the way they want to be treated.  If they choose not to, then they are responsible for that, and are to blame for the hurt that it causes. Noop. That’s by no means a universal even in this ng. ”Hurt” is owned by the hurtee. Viz my remarks above re my family.

Besides, it’s almost impossible to treat other people exactly the way they want to be treated.  It’s part of the general condition.  People are frequently uncomfortable and sometimes actively hurt by what other people say.  It’s their hurt, though. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Another example: I (unfortunately) know many, many women who have been raped. (It’s not unfortunate that I know them, you get what I mean). SOME have been devastated by the experience. The rapist deserves every bit of responsibility–and blame–for this. SOME have worked it through. A few have more or less shrugged it off. Same violation. Different reactions. Different hurts–determined, if not consciously, by the victim. I am very glad that there are people in this world that don’t base their treatment of others on how they look.  My husband is one.  When we met, this slim, dark, goodlooking guy walked right past all the "pretty" girls, in the room, and started a conversation with me, the "ugly" one.  At least, that is how I saw myself, at the time. Nah, he was just being like me, using the mystical radar sense to home in on the actual best one 8).

I’ve seen lots of people who really don’t know what’s attractive or unattractive to other people.  I’m frequently surprised at what the women around me find attractive. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Years later, I asked him why he was drawn to me, rather than one of the pretty girls.  He told me that it was because I was the most beautiful woman he had ever seen, because, when I smiled, the whole room lit up. He could have had his choice, of a lot of other girls.  Matter of fact, I was the object of envy, by several of them. Yep, he could have had his choice, and he chose me.  Something I blame him for, to this day. <giggle You get a lot of mileage out of that one word 8). No, averti, IMO, we are each responsible for the choices that we make. We’re on the same page wrt that. Yet, in this ng, we have seen how B reacts to something A has said with a cry of ”You HURT ME bigtime with what you said!” While often as not A is sitting there trying to figure out what all the ruckus is about.

I don’t think we should pretend that learning about ourselves and other people is supposed to be painless.  All the progress I’ve cherished has required work and pain.  (And work and pain and work and pain and….) B owns all the hurt. Does A own all the blame?

And can sie get a refund? When I make a bad choice, I am the only person that is to blame (unless, of course, the choice was made by my evil twin – nosee)

Naa, you’re not alone — I blame you, too.  (What the hell, I hate to be left out.) take care

Take what?  And if I take that, where can I put all that blame I picked up?  I’ve only got two hands here. I may just do that 8).

Swords Take PROTECT out of the address for replies. Use anon-15262 at anon.twwells.com for anon email

Response:

Continued from…whatever it’s continued from 8). A key point. Perhaps there is then no need to consider yourself as something that needs to be hidden.    It’s been my observation that ppl with visible deformation are treated at a different level than persons who by society’s standards are considered ugly.

Mine as well. But what I was addressing is how one considers _oneself_, not how one is considered by others. The way other folks treat you is influential on your attitude toward yourself, but it need not be definitive. Maybe because there is more ppl who consider themselves to be ugly than ppl who have severe deformation, one is subjective and the other is a reality and cannot be transformed into anything other than it is.  So far noone is championing a movement to change anatomical charts to reflect the differences in the body structure. I’m not sure that I read this in the way you did averti. What I heard was not so much that it is something that "needs" to be hidden as it is not something that is in fact subjective but the reality is what it is.

The reality ”is” what it is. But whose reality counts the most, the lookers-at or the one being looked at? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – There is not a street I can walk on, not a counter I can pay my groceries at, or people are staring, or desperately trying not to stare. Especially children, who I of course do not blame, but whose honesty is nonetheless all the more painful. Yes. I still can’t see the way around this other than changes in YOUR way of looking at the people who are looking at you. It’s not been my experience that the world is full of folks who automatically mutter ”Here comes that ugly guy again.” Some, sure. But most humans achieve at least a familiarity, upon repeated meetings. If you are not gorgeous-looking but you ARE intelligent, well-spoken, polite, and potentially friendly, you might come out ahead on points over the long haul 8).    Yes on the surface I agree here, but when I look a bit deeper and longer. I think there is something else that happens here.  I dont’ think any of "us" would enjoy seeing the expression of initial shock when first a person "spies" us within their eye shot.

Probably not. although having been various sorts of person that looked unappealing to others (I was a hippie, a thug, a druggie etc. at times) I don’t think people are looking to ”enjoy” the reactions of others. True, I could stop looking the way I was looking, where deformed persons can’t. I keep coming back to the same stumbling point; nobody who IS disturbing looking has any kind of right (or reasonable expectation) to have people react to them as if they were pretty. And when seeing this on a daily basis from the age that the relization comes that not all people will react to us as the myth of "in a perfect world where all are accepted" is certainly not something to look forward to on a daily basis.

Why would a person with an imperfect body or (in my case) an imperfect and somewhat malformed spirit believe in a ”perfect world?” Certainly on some days, no matter how much we have been flooded with this reaction, we are not going to be "up for it".  And granted also that some ppl will never get past their first reaction to accepting you, others will be overly gratutous(?) in an effort to say – see I"m ok with you not being ok and that perhaps is even more insulting to the senses.  And yes, eventually over the years you can learn that you ARE intelligent, well spoken, friendly and polite (maybe at times when it is not warranted) and you gain the goal of being points over the long haul.  But what of wanting to be included on a deeper level.

Point taken. However, when one wants go beyond the likelihood of reality, the disappointment is inevitable. I might, at times, want to be 25 or Chinese or an opera singer; I cannot (under current technology 8)) achieve any of these unrealistic goals. And this is where ppl who have deformation find life often to be different for them. I have had lengthy discussions with my therp about this. My therp says he cannot change the world, and that I am the one who will have to change. Heh. I just told you the same thing for free.

Albeit at greater length and less organization 8).  If the staring bothers me, if never having had a girl-friend bothers me, then I am still the one who has to graciously accept it.  Woops. Who said you have to ”graciously” accept anything? You can be royally pissed off and resentful if that’s the way you feel. (Though it doesn’t seem to be doing you a whole lot of good, relatively speaking.)

More anon…

Response:

[...] Because choices are blame-free. Averti, do you really believe that?

Yes, I do, because I make distinctions between _blame_ and _responsibility_. You are generally responsible for the consequences of thing you do; ”blame” implies guilt, and that just doesn’t apply in all situations. This is one point that I will have to argue with you on.  Choices are not blame-free.  With each and every choice we make, in our lives, there is responsibility.

Agreed. For example, the person that makes the choice to drive drunk, and kills somebody.  How can that be considered a choice that is blame-free?

Not to be too nitpicky, it’s not the choice to drive drunk that’s the badness, it’s the killing somebody. What about all the other times the person choose to drive drunk and somehow got home without hitting anything or anybody? Same choice. You may certainly BLAME the person for causing a death, and the death is their responsibility. If we take that attitude, then what, we just turn around, pat the fellow on the head, and say, "oh that’s okay, you just made a choice."

That’s a little simplistic, but basically what actually goes on is that if he doesn’t get into a wreck or get arrested, we don’t have the OPPORTUNITY to pat him on the head. We don’t know. I for one think it’s deplorable to get into a state where you kill somebody else, but it’s none of my general business who drinks and drives or drinks and walks or drives like a maniac while cold sober. Until something bad happens. For each and every survivor, there is, at least, one person that made the choice to abuse.

Not in my case. Not as I understand the meaning of ”choice.” My dad didn’t use a little kid for a punching bag due to some conscious choice he made. He did it because he didn’t know any better. He did it because he learned the practice from having been a punching bag himself. Are my inept, untrained, non-introspective parents to ”blame” for my various adult problems? I don’t think so. To say those choices were blame-free is, IMO, like saying they weren’t responsible for their actions.

Hee. Not being religious, I have the handicap of failing to be interested in balancing the guilt books by assigning blame 8). They made a choice, a bad choice, they were wrong, they deserve the blame that comes with it.

If that’s the way you want to try to rectify things. When my daughter told me she was pregnant, I had to make a choice.  Do I support her, in whatever she decides to do (have the baby and keep it, give it up for adoption, have an abortion), do I support her, conditionally (only if she chooses what I think she should choose), or do I toss her out on her ass, and tell her that she’s made her bed, now lie in it  (a term that I personally absolutely hate!)

Yeah, it’s lying in bed (usually) that caused the problem in the first place 8). So, we made the choice to support her, unconditionally, no matter what she decided, even if it was something we didn’t like. But, each of those choices held responsibility.

Agreed. Now, if your choice turns out to have not been the best one, and additional trouble results, are you to ”blame?” And what do you do with this blame, anyway? Not quite so clear cut, as the other examples above, but for me, if I had taken one of the other choices, I would be to blame for the damage that would have done to our relationship as mother and daughter.

People who make mistakes are blame-worthy? I don’t think we’re going to get very close on this one. _I_ am striving (mildly) for a world in which there is LESS blaming going on, and in which there are distinctions between malicious, evil behavior and just plain ole lousy judgement. People make the choice, whether or not, to treat others the way they want to be treated.  If they choose not to, then they are responsible for that, and are to blame for the hurt that it causes.

Noop. That’s by no means a universal even in this ng. ”Hurt” is owned by the hurtee. Viz my remarks above re my family. Another example: I (unfortunately) know many, many women who have been raped. (It’s not unfortunate that I know them, you get what I mean). SOME have been devastated by the experience. The rapist deserves every bit of responsibility–and blame–for this. SOME have worked it through. A few have more or less shrugged it off. Same violation. Different reactions. Different hurts–determined, if not consciously, by the victim. I am very glad that there are people in this world that don’t base their treatment of others on how they look.  My husband is one.  When we met, this slim, dark, goodlooking guy walked right past all the "pretty" girls, in the room, and started a conversation with me, the "ugly" one.  At least, that is how I saw myself, at the time.

Nah, he was just being like me, using the mystical radar sense to home in on the actual best one 8). Years later, I asked him why he was drawn to me, rather than one of the pretty girls.  He told me that it was because I was the most beautiful woman he had ever seen, because, when I smiled, the whole room lit up. He could have had his choice, of a lot of other girls.  Matter of fact, I was the object of envy, by several of them. Yep, he could have had his choice, and he chose me.  Something I blame him for, to this day. <giggle

You get a lot of mileage out of that one word 8). No, averti, IMO, we are each responsible for the choices that we make.

We’re on the same page wrt that. Yet, in this ng, we have seen how B reacts to something A has said with a cry of ”You HURT ME bigtime with what you said!” While often as not A is sitting there trying to figure out what all the ruckus is about. B owns all the hurt. Does A own all the blame? When I make a bad choice, I am the only person that is to blame (unless, of course, the choice was made by my evil twin – nosee) take care

I may just do that 8).

Response:

Hi panther here,    first I want to denounce any spelling errors and typos on my part as examples of laziness and not to be confused with lack of careful thought

I admire laziness. Practiced it all my life. I have several awards for it 8). Wow. There’s way more to this topic than I thought. First of all, I want to apologize for any dismissive, devaluing, or ”get over it” tone in my previous post. Not intended. [...] Do they throw rotten vegetables and horse dung at you? Or, less sarcastically, how do you know the thoughts behind the face? How does anybody? It may be, often as not, that since people at random don’t have to have any sort of interchange with you, they might not be ”rejecting” you at all.    Not sure about this, but at adult levels, thank god that type of behavior rarely happens, at least I hope not.  Usually that more direct approach is used in  earlier developmental stages  (As I think you point out below)  With adults it is generally a lot more subtle, for many reasons I suspect.  Granted we cannot know all that a person "think" but many ppl are not aware that their body language does reveal their inner thoughts.

True enough. As english-speakers we have somewhat been enculturated NOT to reveal emotional reactions in direct ways. (Yes, I’ve been to soccer games and race riots 8). I’m talking on a more individual level.) However, I am leery of internal interpretations of other peoples’ body ”language.” It’s been my experience that in reality a persons actions are more indicative of their response than their verbal interchange.  Of course the certainity becomes clearer the longer or more often you meet them but the initial contact, at least for me, is generally quite accurate.

Well, yeah. If, upon meeting you, they wince and screw their eyes shut like Redd Foxx used to do, that’s fairly clear 8). But what about my suggestion below, that upon repeated ”exposure”, if you will, the person gradually gets to appreciate your other qualities– or gets used to your unusual appearance? If you go by YOUR intial reaction to THEIR initial reaction, not much good may come of it. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I read this and wondered if anyone has ever thought I gave them the look you’re describing. Then I started thinking…I grew up thinking that I was ugly…not just ugly but pathetically ugly.  I tended to see what I expected to see in people’s eyes.  Now, when asked how I perceive my physical appearance, I tend to say I’m plain, but the reality is, I haven’t a clue and rarely do I even think about it… Ay, there’s the rub: if you do not have to think about it, then you’re not ugly. This is a little too rote for me. ”Ugly” as a functional description is subject to attitudes and biases–like pretty much any other subjective evaluation. I am sure that there are still white people in Mississippi to whom any and all african and african-descended people are irredeemably ”ugly;” but this says more about the beholder than the beholdee.    Yes I think this is true. It seems people are more inclined to understand this in the context of certain prejudices but not others.

Right. Plus there is a difference between preferences, biases, and prejudices. If I say ”I prefer to go out with women who are into kinky sex” that doesn’t carry the additional message ”Women who are NOT into kinky sex are no good.” Picking people whom you personally find attractive does not imply a rejection of the ones you DON’T pick. I hope. The "black/white" prejudices are discussed widely in society at this stage.  Another example would perhaps be even earlier in history with say the europeans coming to america and determining that the american indians were not on a level to deserve the level of humanity due "christian" europeans.

This is an excellent example, partly in that the determination was made pretty much on the basis of what the europeans saw. The notion that a bunch of hairy, diseased, illiterite, religiously bigoted interlopers could look down with unquestioned superiority on a generally much nicer bunch of natives is classic 8). They were treated as a subculture not deserving of the human kindness afforded other ppl with "souls".  Bazaar by our standards today of course. But often the truly "silent minorities" are not only not understood my others but actually their deep pain is vertually not seen and therefore not understood.

I agree. But is an ”ugly” person a minority? Do people have, or hope to have, some kinds of civil-rights type expectation of fairness or affirmitive action over appearance? To be continued…

Response:

<appearance and meeting someone you know from the internet Anyone forms a first impression of someone they meet for the first time on their appearance. It’s the first (and only) way to get a handle on someone, if you don’t know anything about them from somwhere else. It’s not about beautiful or ugly or wheelchair or whatever. I feel happier with someone I meet for the first time when this person somehow remindsme of someone I already know and like. I just feel I already know this person. This puts me at ease, the other person notices this, and we actually get along well right from the start. Good or bad looking doesn’t come into it. The internet (or the phone) inverts the whole process. I only met two people from the Internet IRL, and both times bombed badly. This had nothing to do with looks… we had talked about some things on the Internet which people mostly only talk about after they knowing eachother for a while, and when we met, I didn’t know if I was talking to someone I knew fairly well or to a complete stranger, especially as I couldn’t get anything from their appearance. It was probably the same in reverse. So the whole thing started out badly. <disabilities There was a magazine or journal for the disabled called "Does he take sugar?", where people are handled like they are too stupid to answer for themselves, just because they are sitting in a wheelchair. I can imagine the hurt it causes, I hate being talked over, and I’d hate it ten times more if I could connect it to a disability, something which causes all other kinds of difficulties. I was brought up to try to look like I didn’t notice a disability, much less ask about it. So I grew up thinking disabled people had to be treated like raw eggs, and I preferred not saying anything at all than something which just might cause offence. Apart from that, you can’t feel comfortable with someone when you have to watch what you say all the time. Then you start to see the wheelchair first, then the human being. It took a while, and one or two happy, positive-thinking good friends who are disabled, for me to get my head straight. For my part, I have a condition called essential tremor, a hereditary condition making one or both sides of the body and the voice difficult to control, especially in stress situations. Mostly, it is just a slight inconvenience. It is curable, but I don’t think I really want someone pointing a laser into my brain, I’ll pass on that, thanks. This is nothing compared with a real disability, but I would prefer people to talk to me about it before they start talking to others (does he have a drug problem or what?). Anyway, if they ask me about it, they are signaling that they know that my condition is a part of me, not the other way around. I mean, what do they think I’ll do if they ask? Burst in tears? Tear them apart? Do they really believe I don’t think they’ll notice it? Thankfully, most people do ask me about it… I’d prefer people to think of it as something that makes me stick out of the crowd, rather than being a condition. People often ask me if I have Parkinsons (I’m 30!), which makes me laugh… now Parkinsons is really serious. DD

Response:

and averti read. And clippeth. First things first. I think it was a bit unfair of me to blame Blain individually for something that would never have bothered me if it were not a collective problem: the weary fate of the ugly.

As I know you share my investment in Shakespeare, I can’t help but think about Richard III and Caliban. ”Comeliness” was important to the Elizabethans as well as the current crop of TV heads–but part of the riddle for me has always been, did these characters do ”evil” or even disruption BECAUSE they were unpleasant looking, or was a lot of the ”fate” self-assigned?  While I feel angry for Marla, I realize that I am primarily projecting. Being a disabled person myself, I have seen that look of yours a thousand times before on a thousand faces: shameless rejection over looks.

Do they throw rotten vegetables and horse dung at you? Or, less sarcastically, how do you know the thoughts behind the face? How does anybody? It may be, often as not, that since people at random don’t have to have any sort of interchange with you, they might not be ”rejecting” you at all. I read this and wondered if anyone has ever thought I gave them the look you’re describing. Then I started thinking…I grew up thinking that I was ugly…not just ugly but pathetically ugly.  I tended to see what I expected to see in people’s eyes.  Now, when asked how I perceive my physical appearance, I tend to say I’m plain, but the reality is, I haven’t a clue and rarely do I even think about it… Ay, there’s the rub: if you do not have to think about it, then you’re not ugly.

This is a little too rote for me. ”Ugly” as a functional description is subject to attitudes and biases–like pretty much any other subjective evaluation. I am sure that there are still white people in Mississippi to whom any and all african and african-descended people are irredeemably ”ugly;” but this says more about the beholder than the beholdee. I, on the other hand, cannot fool myself. I am beyond plain, I am ugly. Being disabled to the extent that I am, in short comprising of quite visible deformations on my arms and legs, there is no hiding what I am.

A key point. Perhaps there is then no need to consider yourself as something that needs to be hidden. There is not a street I can walk on, not a counter I can pay my groceries at, or people are staring, or desperately trying not to stare. Especially children, who I of course do not blame, but whose honesty is nonetheless all the more painful.

Yes. I still can’t see the way around this other than changes in YOUR way of looking at the people who are looking at you. It’s not been my experience that the world is full of folks who automatically mutter ”Here comes that ugly guy again.” Some, sure. But most humans achieve at least a familiarity, upon repeated meetings. If you are not gorgeous-looking but you ARE intelligent, well-spoken, polite, and potentially friendly, you might come out ahead on points over the long haul 8). I have had lengthy discussions with my therp about this. My therp says he cannot change the world, and that I am the one who will have to change.

Heh. I just told you the same thing for free. If the staring bothers me, if never having had a girl-friend bothers me, then I am still the one who has to graciously accept it.

Woops. Who said you have to ”graciously” accept anything? You can be royally pissed off and resentful if that’s the way you feel. (Though it doesn’t seem to be doing you a whole lot of good, relatively speaking.) But why? Later, you ask me what is wrong about relationships based on sexuality. I turn on my TV, and I see this commercial: a man in a dry-cleaning shop, surrounded by a beautiful girl, an old fat man, and an obnoxious little kid, and the narrator asking: "Who would you most like to be with?"

Please do not confuse TV with reality–no good ever comes of doing that. Also please do not confuse the elementary manipulations of mass-market advertising with any kind of insight into the lives of people on YOUR intellectual level 8). Obviously, he is hinting to the gorgeous girl. That is what I meant by: "Blatently heraulding the inferiority of people who do not meet your physical standards."

Um, being that life is not a contest (mostly), I fail to see how the mythical chooser’s choosing the beautiful girl acts to destroy the lives of the fat old man and the little kid. If you loaded the question by asking it of another little kid, they might choose the obnxious little kid. If you asked a fat old woman she might well prefer the fat old man 8). Inferiority not implied. What bothers me about that, it that nobody seems to be bothered by that. Everywhere I look, I see people agreeing to the inferiority of ugly people, and they do it without any remorse or shame.

Why should anybody be ashamed of their preferences? Seems like you are hoping that if the general public stops being so superficial and starts giving ”ugly” people more consideration, some level of nobility will have been achieved. (Perhaps with the side benefit that it will seem like more people react to you personally with an unbiased attitude.) But when I bring that up to my therp, he vehemently defends the rights of people to choose whoever they want.

Eh. Moot point. People ”choose” based on a complex range of criteria–much of which is imposed from outside. A hundred years ago the ”choice” profile was a short, hippy, huge- busted young woman with Big Hair and tiny hands and feet. Six foot tall women with muscles as are now so popular would have been branded as ”ugly” the first time they ventured into the light of day. The man even had the audacity to suggest that people take to their own kind, that beautiful people tend to choose beautiful people, and ugly people tend to "choose" ugly people (which is of course a total bull statistic, because the ugly people cannot get any better, and the beautiful people do not settle for less).

You are right about that. (Leaving aside your rather firm underlying conviction that ”ugly” is some kind of disease or condition.) But it’s silly to generalize that beautiful people accept only other beautiful people; I couldn’t count the number of couples I have seen where a conventionally good looking woman is out with a guy who looks like a Far Side character. And to a lesser extent the other way around. Not everybody picks their associates entirely on the basis of looks; suppose looks is all they have? Ugh. My shrink has this beautiful daugter, 16 years of age, and the most popular girl in school. But on mondays she has gym-class, and she gets notoriously picked last when teams are being formed, which is apparently a source of immense discomfort and social stress for her.

Twas ever thus. I submit that the classic social unfairnesses of teens have nothing to do with the rest of this discussion; in that everybody knows that teens are not human, in either the emotional nor the intellectual sense 8). But, being the princess that she is, it only lasts that one hour, until the next week. And I confronted my therp on this. I asked him, "Hey, if your beautiful daughter has to live through a tenth of what I have to experience each and all day for only a few minute moments a week, and really hates it, then why is it okay for her to do to me?"

What is it that she does? Faint? Throw herself out the window? Fling a large bag over you so as to blot out the sight? Why do you contend on the one hand that it is your fate to be ‘’specially” reacted to because of your appearance, and then on the other hand take the reaction so throughly personally? Whatever happened to: "Do unto others as you would like them to do unto you."?

Oh, that old bit of mangled Jewish muttering 8). But his rebuttal is always identical: "My beautiful daughter can choose whoever she wants." And it even sounds right, freedom of choice and all. But her choices are at my expense,

No sir. That does not add up. If it did, then we might make a case for your appearance being at HER expense, which is ridiculous. You are not being ”ugly” in order to hurt people, and they are not reacting in order to hurt you. Hence, no injury, no remorse. and whatever thoughts of consequence may prance around in that pretty little head of hers,

Uh huh. OK for you to patronize HER on the basis of what you imagine she is really like… I am sure that, despite my therapist’s many protestations, the thought must have occured to her, that if she is hurting bad because of even the tiniest of negative physical feedbacks, it must be no picknick for me either. But his point is one of unrelenting sameness: it is not her problem, but yours, and you better get used to it. Of course, he puts it more smoothly, but his buttered tongue cannot cloak the venom underneath.

Scuse me? You frequent a ”venomous” therp? Can’t quite see why you would do that, or continue to do that, given his gratuituously pretty child being shoved up your nose, and his nasty insistence on freedom of thought and reaction. Hominus homini lupus est, Man is man a wolf. Each man for himself. But, Ruby, I will never resign to this. I will accept it no more than a black person should accept his inferiority for not being white. The day I will accept it, is the day I should start worrying.

All fine and good. That’s the spirit. But wouldn’t it lead to more of a payoff to spend less time in other peoples’ minds, looking for unfair attitudes toward you which they may in fact not have at all? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am okay with this, people like you exist. I am not oblivious to physical attractions myself, of course, but realizing carnality in a carnal world is one thing. Blatently heraulding the inferiority

… read more »

Response:

A whole bunch of stuff that I don’t have a specific comment on, so I snipped it. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – No, Ruby, my real problem is as follows: nobody ever wants to take the blame for their choices: everybody seems free to choose, no matter how that hurts me. I have, so to speak, no "perp" I can blame. I can never externalize my fate, and it is always thrown back at me. I can get mad at Blain, but he pushes it off as a mere projection of mine, and the sad part is, he is not even altogether entirely wrong about it, either. Each man for himself. Having no obvious "perp" to blame, I can never find closure, either. I cannot conquer it, children will always keep staring, and people will always remain "instantly disappointed" in me for something I can never fix: my physical appearance. Perhaps that is what triggered me in Blain’s post: he pronounces his disappointment in Marla so openly, so without remorse, it reminded me again of how my life has always been at the mercy of other people’s willingness to overlook my looks, and the dismally unsuccessful manner I escaped their choices.

Okay, I’m not sure that I’ve pushed everything off as your projection — I’m not going to comment more on what I’ve said because I made a specific response to what you said and I’m happy to discuss what I said in that response if you’d like to discuss them by responding to that post. Actually, I have a fair amount of pain in recalling my experience with Marla — funny that it hurts after all these years.  Much of it is embarrassment about my foolishness in raising that expectation and putting that much of myself into a situation I was so unrealistic about in my understanding. The thing that is surprising me is that you have yet to acknowledge that I was also the subject of that look, and that I was the one who was shown the cold-shoulder in preferance for another — I did not reject Marla, she rejected me for a "better offer."   I’ve spent a great deal of time and thought the past almost three years on the process of attraction and what it is that I’m attracted to and what exactly that has to do with the sort of person I want to build a relationship with.  It’s not been a comfortable process — I have a certain attraction to weakness and vulnerability, because, at a very low level, I wish to be a protector and caretaker.  I’m also attracted to strong, capable, intelligent women.  I am attracted to different people for different reasons — perhaps different types of people appeal to different parts of me.  Some of those reasons are healthier than others.   The interesting thing to me has been what I do after that initial reaction of attraction or not — for now, I watch and see and do nothing to pursue anything romantic with anybody and just try to be friendly with pretty much everybody as is appropriate in a certain context.  This has allowed me to learn to be a bit more realistic by testing what those initial impressions are against what the realities turn out to be.  I’ve found that I can be quite friendly with people I find to be initially visibly attractive at the same time as being quite friendly with those with less visual appeal.  This is interesting for perhaps the opposite reasons that you would be thinking — generally the folks I’m comfortable dealing with are the less visually appealing, as I tend to get intimidated by the more visually attractive.  I’ve been learning at a deeper level to treat people like people rather than what they appear to be. – Mark

Take care, Blain — and "Dittos, Rush" means 100% agreement,       | Whatcom County Young then maybe the mind-numbed robot is you.       | Republicans – http:// Listen and find out what they really mean.     | www.whatcom.org/yr/

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – And we got along really really well.  I was almost 17, Marla was 15 or so.  She and Wendi lived in the next town down the road.  We were talking about going out and stuff like that.  And then she started talking about this other guy named Bill who lived in the same town I did.  Bill was a year or two younger than me, and we hadn’t met.  So we worked out a way that we could meet each other — Wendi had a huge crush on a friend of mine named Chris, and Chris and I rode bikes the 10-15 miles to the next town to see them. Well, when Marla and I saw each other for the first time, we were mutually instantly disappointed in each other — it was obvious probably to both of us.  I’ve never spoken with Marla about the experience (I think I saw her a handful of times after this and never spoke with her about much of anything), but my guess is that we both wanted the other to be really attractive and to fit some fantasy we had built up about each other, and the reality was that we were both a bit too average looking. I have been reading your post with a growing unease as I progressed to each next paragraph. Perhaps what discomforts me the most, is the manner in which you seem to invalidate the value of our collective net-relationships because of your own desilusions. Maybe, and probably more distinctly cause of my annoyance, is the utter empasis on physical appearance. While I feel angry for Marla, I realize that I am primarily projecting. Being a disabled person myself, I have seen that look of yours a thousand times before on a thousand faces: shameless rejection over looks. I am okay with this, people like you exist. I am not oblivious to physical attractions myself, of course, but realizing carnality in a carnal world is one thing. Blatently heraulding the inferiority of people who do not meet your physical standards is an other.

<snip Mark, I don’t think Blain was focusing particularly on looks in this post; I think he was referring primarily to the way people can and do sometimes build up non-IRL relationships to a level where they can be too good to be true, and where a person can project things in them that aren’t there. I had a friendship when I first got on the net with the most depressed guy I’ve ever known. I got caught up in trying to help him, and he ended up clinging to me like I was a life preserver, and telling me that he was in love with me, and talking suicidal. I later learned, after breaking contact with him, that this was a pattern with him. Although he probably meant the things he said to a point, it was step for step the same thing he had done with other women, some of whom had returned his affections, only to find out that IRL, he could not sustain a relationship, that he managed to sabotage them somehow out of some fear of commitment, and they ended up lost in the cold. This man was very sweet, and very helpful, but TOO helpful. He let me wallow; in fact, he actively sought out pain in me before he even knew it was there. He _wanted_ it to be there. I mean, he literally asked me things like, "what are you running from?" and "what is your pain?" out of the blue. In the early times of this relationship, I felt I’d found a soulmate, after decades of feeling that no one really cared. I felt he was the friend I had wished for all of my life. But it turned out to be a disaster. I spent hours every day talking to him, as he revealed his depression to me more and more, and I spent so much time anguishing over the things he was doing to himself; I would type away with tears streaming down my cheeks because I wanted to help him so much. I finally had to start telling other people I couldn’t stand it, and asking them what I should do. I was, by this point, trying to tell the guy that I didn’t want to hear the continual romantic references and vague sexual innuendo, but every time I did, he’d go into some horrible slump, once telling me he’d considered suicide. And if I said I was uncomfortable talking about something, like some sexual thing, he’d get all upset because we were "soulmates" so we should be able to talk about absolutely anything. Finally, I had to just stop talking to him. And it hurt. He sent me several horribly typed emails that sounded so freaked out they scared me. I felt like some evil monster for taking myself out of the picture, but I just couldn’t stand the strain anymore. I’m not saying that this applies to anyone here, but net relationships can be deceiving, and we can deceive ourselves in them. My first friendship on the net was with a guy who decided I had the hots for him, which I didn’t. He decided this on the basis that I was very openly friendly and that when he’d get annoyed with me for whatever reason (usually because I didn’t like his romantic overtures or his sexual innuendo) and decide he was going to stop talking to me, I’d get all upset and practically beg him not to stop being my friend. (I’m rolling my eyes at my cluelessness of the past) I look back now at emails and logs from him and I can’t believe how much crap I took from that guy. But those two friendships were early in my online days, and I’ve learned to get to know people on a more realistic basis, and I have several wonderful online friendships. Getting back to what Blain said, and what seems to have set you off the most, I again don’t think that physical appearance is what he’s focusing on. But you have to admit that people do focus on looks sometimes … even in just minor things like someone might really like blond hair and someone else might really like blue eyes, or beards, or dimples, or whatever. And what one person might find really attractive, other people might be apathetic toward or not like at all. And you seem to not notice that _both_ Blain and Marla were disappointed in each other’s looks. I don’t think it’s particularly horrible to have built up an image of someone in your mind and have them not quite meet your expectations … especially when you’re a teenager. Teenagers ARE more shallow, sometimes, than they are later in life. Do you really consider Blain to be a shallow person, based on his posts? I may not agree with everything he says, but I think he’s an honest, decent man who just had some stuff he needed to get off his chest. I just think he’s saying that the net and other non-physical ways of communicating can build up expectations (physical or otherwise) that maybe can’t be met on an IRL level. And I think that’s very possible. I don’t find that in my net relationships, but I know people who have. Blain certainly wasn’t saying something as superficial as to condemn people for lack of beauty, and I’m sorry that you took it that way. I’m sorry you’ve had the experiences that you’ve had. I don’t know what your disability is, but I know that people do stare or try not to stare at people who have noticeable physical disabilities. You mentioned that the children’s looks hurt you most of all … one of the things that I’ve always found delightful about children is that they’re so frank and so open. For a while. Eventually they learn there are things you’re not supposed to talk about, questions you don’t ask, etc. My son still hasn’t learned this. I was talking to the high school swim coach, who is an amputee with a hook on his prosthetic arm, and my son kept asking him about it, and the coach just ignored him. I felt stupid, and I wished the coach would just *answer* him, would just *say* what happened to his arm. I’ve known that coach for like 10 years, and he’s never said a word about the arm or the hook. Not one word. He doesn’t try to hide it or anything, but it’s just not mentioned. And I think stuff like that happens a lot. In high school, I’d been dating my boyfriend a year before I noticed that one of his friends had no fingers on his left hand. I didn’t notice this until he was playing pool one night; I mentioned it to someone else, and they told me never to say anything about it, because he was very sensitive about it. OTOH, my daughter had a friend last year that has only half-fingers on both hands, and this girl plays volleyball and does all the normal things that kids do, and everyone is cool about the fingers. In fact, they think they’re cool. My daughter actually brought me over to the girl to show me her fingers; I felt silly, but I had to say something, so I asked her if they were a problem in any aspect of her game, which they really weren’t. It felt cool. It was refreshing to be able to talk casually and openly about a birth defect in a person rather than pretend it didn’t exist. I wish things were more like that all over the place. I wish things had been more like that for you, Mark. *hug* Laurie

Response:

oh bruddah. this THIS is = N O T <= real life.

Um, I think I saw that mentioned in Blain’s post. what it basically boils down to is a bunch of people typing their brains out, sometimes to good use sometimes not. it is N O T a safe haven, a sanctuary, a church, someone’s home, etc.

I don’t think Blain intimated that it should be; just that sometimes people look to it to be and that maybe that’s part of why things get so emotional. get over it.

I hate this phrase. It’s dismissive and easy and it implies that people’s feelings are stupid. if you don’t like what you’re reading, just stop reading it. be a grownup. exercise your right to choose.

He is. He exercised his right to talk about what hurts. Sounds pretty grownup to me. And it was an honest, open, non-combative post, too. I’m tired of seeing barbs directed toward people who wish people wouldn’t fight. If the fighters have the right to say what’s on their mind, SO DO THE PEOPLE WHO DON’T LIKE IT. Laurie S.

Response:

speaking of appearances and disabilities, it reminded me of what happened to my husband. he told me about this time, he was meeting a person who is famous locally, was sposed to interview him for the noon news. and my hubby reached out and shook the guy’s hand, and then gasped and jumped back, cuz the guy was missing 3 fingers! it wasn’t that Dave was prejudiced, or disgusted, or anything. he was just so surprised, the feeling of the guy’s hand was so odd, it was just involuntary. he hadn’t noticed it just by looking at the guy. so, even if ppl don’t see something, they can be surprised by it. i asked Dave what happened, what did the guy say? and basically, Dave looked embarassed, the guy just smiled, and they both just chuckled and got on with the interview. i guess, it’s the attitude of both parties involved that determines if it’s a good or bad experience. peace, karmagrrl

Response:

Hi, Blain …

Howdy. In the great tradition of usenet, I’m ignoring all the other responses to your post and wading in to hash out my own stuff.  I’m sorry you’re hurting — been there, got the t-shirt, it chafes.

Thanks.  And thanks. Only 7% of communication is based on the actual words spoken, which means to me that in the "virtual world," 93% is what I *think* is true about another person. And usually what I think is true is what I want to be true — what I need to be true.  When I first found IRC, I thought (being a very confused computer professional) that it was some species of talking to myself.  Now, almost three years later, I think that again.

Interesting how that works. I project onto the people I am closest to on IRC the characteristics that I want to see in them — and all the more so was this true for my net.love, now firmly off-line.  I miss him with an ache that I suppose will ease in time, but anyone who says that I loved him less because I met him only once is very much mistaken.

Not claiming you loved him less, although I do wonder if you loved him, or someone who looked like him. Well, for me, abandoned — and not because of anything he did or didn’t do as much as because I tend to feel abandoned when the sun goes down.

Wow.  You’re good at that. I think also that we (the collective we of your paragraph above) also re-inact our personal abuse history with those closest to us, either IRL or on IRC or wherever, and find again that sad, familiar place of loss and betrayal.  And about triggers:  that’s why I own mine.

This is a really good point.   Thanks on the triggers too. Boundaries are simply horribly hard for most abuse survivors, I think.

Seem to be. For people (speaking for myself) who were permitted *no* boundaries, no privacy, no "mine" (vs. "yours") it’s almost impossible to find that line without a *lot* of work.  It *feels* so safe on IRC — I haven’t yet worked out why that’s true.

Funny, because I usually feel a slight sense of impending threat every time I’m on irc.  Maybe this is because my main channel (not abuse related) is frequently a combat zone with op fights and general nastiness happening multiple times daily. I like this very (VERY) much.  Reality *is* harsh stuff.  I much prefer my net.soul-mate to my husband, who is cranky and, frankly, a pain the the fanny a lot of the time.  But then, so am I.  In my net.love’s eyes, I was (he said) perfect.  Yeah, right.

And he doesn’t push his cold feet into your nice warm legs while you’re asleep either.   Just a few thoughts.  I’m tired, and I’m hurting. Hope things are better now.  I hurt about the absence of my net.love pretty much constantly, especially this time of year (since last year this time our love was new and fragile and beautiful beyond words).  I wish him well, wherever he is (actually, I know precisely where he is and I’m keeping myself firmly right *here*, thanks).

Things are a bit better in that regard — thanks.   Congrats on staying in reality on this one — even though it brings pain to do so.  I respect that a lot. You too. Laurels

Thanks, Blain —                http://www.pacificrim.net/~blainn/abuse

Response:

: Hi, : Hope you don’t mind me jumping in on this thread.  As I was reading : what Ruby was saying about growing up feeling ugly, it really struck a : cord, with me. : I, too, grew up believing that I was an ugly kid, not just ugly, but a : fat, frizzy haired ugly little oinker.  It was an awful way to grow : up, never having the support of family, who were constantly lambasting : me for not sticking to whatever diet they had me on, or from friends. : I didn’t have very many of those. ack. me too. i told my sister that i’d always thought she was the pretty one, and she said she’d always thought i was the pretty one. *wry grin* can we say ‘low self-esteem’ boys and girls? i was a smart kid, too. and a kid can never be pretty enough to make up for intelligence. : My life has been blessed by the incredible good fortune of falling in : love with a man that sees beauty in everything, but especially, in me. me too. when ted looks at me, i am amazed at the person he sees. : Well, I don’t know about beauty, but I do know that I have seen many a : person that would be labelled as "plain" or even "ugly" that have an : incredible inner beauty that shines forth in the darkest places.  And : I’ve seen some pretty gorgeous (on the outside) people that are : nothing but vain, arrogant, and selfish. yup. i remember when i first moved to my new school, i picked out all the really beautiful people and decided that i was going to be friends with those ones. i was going to be part of the popular crowd for a change. *grin* even then i couldn’t stand boring, self-important, fluffheads. so i ended up with the misfits, because they were all so much more interesting. and they weren’t misfits to me, they were just my friends. my first boyfriend ever was craig, an amazing person who happens to have cerebral palsy. he is still one of the most beautiful people i have ever had the honor to know. : Mark, you are not an ugly man.  You are kind and gentle, loving and : sweet, you are honest and you look for the best in everyone.  Your : inner beauty shines through, to all that know you.  Each and every one : of us, a better person for having you in our lives. i want to second, third, and ninth this. i’ve met ugly people, and you are definitely not among them. i know it’s the standard line, beauty being in the eye of the beholder. i know not everyone lives that way. but i do believe that the wisest and warmest people love not in spite of or because of appearance, but simply because a person is lovable. i dunno, it’s late, i’m rambling, but here you go anyhow. silverleaf — — Do not run. We are your friends. *bzort*

Response:

First things first. I think it was a bit unfair of me to blame Blain individually for something that would never have bothered me if it were not a collective problem: the weary fate of the ugly.

[...] Ay, there’s the rub: if you do not have to think about it, then you’re not ugly. I, on the other hand, cannot fool myself. I am beyond plain, I am ugly. Being disabled to the extent that I am, in short comprising of quite visible deformations on my arms and legs, there is no hiding what I am. There is not a street I can walk on, not a counter I can pay my groceries at, or people are staring, or desperately trying not to stare. Especially children, who I of course do not blame, but whose honesty is nonetheless all the more painful.

now Mark, don’t you remember i told you about the flowers? that no two flowers are alike? but do we call the flowers that are different "deformed?" no! we’re *all* just flowers. you are my Mark-flower, and you always will be i’ll be so damn proud to walk beside you in the store, my big brother!! ***hugs*** hey, will ya let me give the finger to the ppl who stare at ya? *wicked grin* as to those children, they’re just the products of their parents and society. a child isn’t born knowing what’s ugly and what isn’t, a child is born curious. i remember thinking that what you call "deformed" people were like interesting clay sculptures, cool because they were shaped differently than i was. i was always curious, wanting to look and touch and ask questions, and my mom encouraged it rather than discouraged it. when we meet, if my lils are around, my lils will prolly drive you insane i know how such prejudices are born in children … my stepsis and me would take my nieces to the mall, we’d encounter a disabled person, and she’d tell the girls "don’t look at them!", or sometimes she’d make fun of them and the kids would hear it. and of course they’d follow their mom’s lead. i had some big fights with my stepsis over that. when i took my nieces out, i taught the girls that everyone is beautiful and we all come in such a wonderful lot of shapes and sizes and colors. they’re Christian, so i told them that when God makes ppl, it’s like he’s playing with clay, and everyone turns out very different, but there are *no* mistakes. they said their mom and grandma had told them that God makes horrible mistakes sometimes, but that they liked my story much better. i only hope i had some lasting influence on those girls, since i’ll never see them again – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have had lengthy discussions with my therp about this. My therp says he cannot change the world, and that I am the one who will have to change. If the staring bothers me, if never having had a girl-friend bothers me, then I am still the one who has to graciously accept it. But why? Later, you ask me what is wrong about relationships based on sexuality. I turn on my TV, and I see this commercial: a man in a dry-cleaning shop, surrounded by a beautiful girl, an old fat man, and an obnoxious little kid, and the narrator asking: "Who would you most like to be with?" Obviously, he is hinting to the gorgeous girl. That is what I meant by: "Blatently heraulding the inferiority of people who do not meet your physical standards." What bothers me about that, it that nobody seems to be bothered by that. Everywhere I look, I see people agreeing to the inferiority of ugly people, and they do it without any remorse or shame. But when I bring that up to my therp, he vehemently defends the rights of people to choose whoever they want. The man even had the audacity to suggest that people take to their own kind, that beautiful people tend to choose beautiful people, and ugly people tend to "choose" ugly people (which is of course a total bull statistic, because the ugly people cannot get any better, and the beautiful people do not settle for less).

*ppppfffffftttttt* i’m what you’d call ugly, i mean, i’m way overweight and still fighting the battle of adult acne on my face. but my husband is a total BABE. (and most of my irc friends know that i am a babe-expert *grin*). ooh grrrrrr, i get so upset when we go out, i hear the whispers (usually women), "what’s HE doing with HER?" sometimes if it’s just me alone, i have to endure barking and "moo-ing" as i walk by a group of teens or young adults. i just ignore them. [...] "Free will, the scene is set, and by design." "Maybe so," I said, "but not by mine." "It will so be: I made My creatures free." "Ay," I sighed, "but who then will choose me?"

karmagrrl jumps up and down "mememememememememe!" *giggle* Fortunately, Ruby, I am not fifteen anymore, and it only takes one person interested in anything other than my body, and, by golly, I found her: Panther. She alone restored all my losses, my faith in humanity, and, above all, the faith in myself.

yayyyyy Panther! woohoo! way to go! *highfive* you two are just SO romantic, i swear, i am going to melt when i meet you for the first time peace and love, karmagrrl

Response:

posted/mailed Hi, Mark I think what you’re addressing is a section of a much broader issue. Being "different".  When I grew up, being different meant undesireable…thankfully, that’s changing.  Slowly. writes: Hi, Ruby First things first. I think it was a bit unfair of me to blame Blain individually for something that would never have bothered me if it were not a collective problem: the weary fate of the ugly.

I believe beauty is in the eye of the beholder, because the beholder looks for people who have traits that are attractive to them.  So, they get to define what’s personally attractive.  When I try to evaluate my physical appearance is when I run into trouble. Ugliness…is such a difficult issue.  I feel myself wanting to say, "it ain’t so" but that would be a crock.  The reality is the real ugliness.  Not you, not me, but the real issue behind people being able to victimize someone because they don’t fit into the scale of beauty as defined by their peers (?), society (?), media (?), is the ugly part.   Although I am long since past triggered, and you showed a genuine interest far exceeding what my original post deserved, you certainly deserve a careful response in kind.

You put a lot into your original post.  There was a lot of heat in it, but there was a tremendous sense of anguish that stirred me.  And your honesty…was incredible.   Thank you for your reply.  I was hoping you would, but I was unwilling to push.   I read this and wondered if anyone has ever thought I gave them the look you’re describing. Then I started thinking…I grew up thinking that I was ugly…not just ugly but pathetically ugly.  I tended to see what I expected to see in people’s eyes.  Now, when asked how I perceive my physical appearance, I tend to say I’m plain, but the reality is, I haven’t a clue and rarely do I even think about it… Ay, there’s the rub: if you do not have to think about it, then you’re not ugly.

I taught myself to not focus on my physical self.  When I would start wanting to blend into the woodwork, I reminded myself of the things that I believe are important.  And physical characteristics don’t even make the list.  The same reasoning I use for most things…what do I believe is important and why are those things important. I, on the other hand, cannot fool myself. I am beyond plain, I am ugly.

I think you have bought into someone else’s ideals.  And you are the only one who can decide whether you’re going to keep them or not. Being disabled to the extent that I am, in short comprising of quite visible deformations on my arms and legs, there is no hiding what I am.

Does being disabled = ugly?  Or does attracting unwanted attention = ugly? I can empathize on some level because "hiding in plain sight" is an art form that I’ve perfected.  And as I’ve learned to stand out (*sigh* the things I do to change), attracting attention has been something that I’m still trying to be more comfortable with.  And when people do look closely at me, I wonder how they’re seeing me…then I remind myself not to worry about it. There is not a street I can walk on, not a counter I can pay my groceries at, or people are staring, or desperately trying not to stare.

Lift your chin, meet their eyes and smile at them, Mark.  Let them see a little bit of who you show us.  You are not a *what*, you’re a *who*.  And a damn fine *who* you are.  And while you’re at it, see if you can see a bit of *who* they are… If you ran into me on the street, I would probably stare.  I do that with anyone who catches my attention, especially if I’m not sure how to approach them.  And approaching people is my way of finding out a little bit about *who* they are. Especially children, who I of course do not blame, but whose honesty is nonetheless all the more painful.

Would it help to know what my kids think when they run into someone who is different than all the other people they’ve met?  If not, skip the next bit. They’re focus has changed as they’ve grown, but usually they’re looking for what they have in common with people and how different people do different things.  I’ve encouraged my kids to approach people (with me) and express their questions…I figure it’s better to know what someone’s thinking than not to know.  (I’d recommend finding out what they’re going to ask FIRST before approaching anyone, especially if the child is at that magical age of facination with bodily functions.)  I have offended people unintentionally, and I’ve learned to be more cautious about who I approach with my children.   Thus far, my youngest is primarily interested in how other people get around.  My oldest child’s major focus has surrounded how people do day to day things.  Both of my children define the *who* in a person based on things they consider important.   The school my children attends has an incredibly diverse population of students, including disabled kids.  The students learn about diversity because they live it.  I think they’re incorporating the lessons they’re learning well.   There are still problems…but the kids are picking up some of the slack.  For example, the playground itself isn’t wheelchair accessible, nor is the equipment geared for children who don’t have use of their arms and legs.  Yet, I haven’t seen a child in a wheelchair spend recess alone.   When I was in school, I don’t remember seeing disabled people.  There was one kid who used a magnifying glass to see the blackboard, and he let me try it.  He was teased mercilessly…as was I.  But I never saw someone in a wheel chair, or using a cane.  Disabled people weren’t a part of my reality until I was an adult…which probably has something to do with my focus of exposing my children to diversity.  Although, being  on the receiving end of racism probably had more to do with wanting my children to understand that people are people. I have had lengthy discussions with my therp about this. My therp says he cannot change the world, and that I am the one who will have to change. If the staring bothers me, if never having had a girl-friend bothers me, then I am still the one who has to graciously accept it. But why?

Because it will help you? Life isn’t fair.  You know this, as your poem speaks of it.  It’s not fair, it’s never going to be fair.  It is, simply, life.  By focusing on what I can not change, I further the distance between myself and those I want to reach.  And the people I want to reach, are people who will see me for myself.  Value me for myself.  Love me for myself. And from that base, I can afford to reach out to people who wont/don’t/can’t.  Because I’m not reaching from a position of need, I’m reaching to give…to share what other people have shared with me. (And since I’ve also refused gifts from people who wanted to give, I can respect that sometimes I’m going to be refused.) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Later, you ask me what is wrong about relationships based on sexuality. I turn on my TV, and I see this commercial: a man in a dry-cleaning shop, surrounded by a beautiful girl, an old fat man, and an obnoxious little kid, and the narrator asking: "Who would you most like to be with?" Obviously, he is hinting to the gorgeous girl. That is what I meant by: "Blatently heraulding the inferiority of people who do not meet your physical standards." What bothers me about that, it that nobody seems to be bothered by that. Everywhere I look, I see people agreeing to the inferiority of ugly people, and they do it without any remorse or shame.

*nodding*  There are people who are working on changing this very thing.  And it is changing.  But you do have to look for it…and perhaps someday, we wont have to look so hard. But when I bring that up to my therp, he vehemently defends the rights of people to choose whoever they want. The man even had the audacity to suggest that people take to their own kind, that beautiful people tend to choose beautiful people, and ugly people tend to "choose" ugly people (which is of course a total bull statistic, because the ugly people cannot get any better, and the beautiful people do not settle for less).

I know a couple of stunningly attractive people, and Mark, they’re just people.  They hurt, just like everyone else hurts.  And they get judged at a glance, just like other people.   I don’t know about "like choosing like" because most of the people I know are looking for people they can feel good around.  People they can let down the day to day mask with and just relax.  People who they can relate with and be understood by.   In here, people do the same. I gravitate towards people who I feel are moving in the same direction.  That doesn’t mean that I interact with everyone that I feel is moving in the same direction, nor does it mean that everyone I interact with is moving in the same direction.  And my lack of interaction with someone doesn’t mean that I don’t value/appreciate/enjoy/like them.   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -My shrink has this beautiful daugter, 16 years of age, and the most popular girl in school. But on mondays she has gym-class, and she gets notoriously picked last when teams are being formed, which is apparently a source of immense discomfort and social stress for her. But, being the princess that she is, it only lasts that one hour, until the next week. And I confronted my therp on this. I asked him, "Hey, if your beautiful daughter has to live through a tenth of what I have to experience each and all day for only a few minute moments a week, and really hates it, then why is it okay for her to do to me?" Whatever happened to: "Do unto others as you would like

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Response:

what you have described here my dear friend is the wonder of the net for me.  No one looks any particular way.  We are what our thoughts are and how we are able to express them is what we are. I never really thought too much about how people looked, I just accepted my world and who was in it.  When I got to the net, I would be surprised at first that someone would describe to me a life of isolation and loneliness because of disability.  Usually I would have talked with them a while before this revelation came forth. I would know their words and thoughts, the "them" that is important to me.   We live in an age now, where people can present themselves and their thoughts without any consideration given to physical aspects.  This has taught me a lot – that the people who I never paid that much attention to in my life or was put off because of their looks have soooo much wonderfulness inside of them.  But not for the net, I would have missed this lesson altogether because alas, I probably would have continued to never pay much attention to the people who I have come to enjoy the most. I find myself remembering a song by Bette Middler "Hello in There" now. I stop and visit with all kinds of people in elevators, doctor’s offices, waiting rooms and lines everywhere.  I know, really know, that what I see is definitely not even a hint of what I will get if I look further inside and simply say hello.   I don’t care what the fuck you look like Mark, you are Mark, my sweet and sensitive net friend, you will have a place in my brain and heart forever. You have taught me a lot here on the net and in the real world, because you and a few others have made me notice and not just walk by, but to stop and say hello and look inside. In a way I believe your therapist is right, what you cannot change you have a choice to deal with or not, you also have a choice on how to deal with it.  I would think it would be enormously hard to not be angry and yes that is a choice, but it seems to me that it is a choice you have to make over and over again each time someone bothers to not say hello, but to simply not notice or to stare. If change is made one person at a time, then you have started with this one person.  I notice, I don’t look past or stare, I speak, I look inside.  I promise you my friend, I will keep doing that.  Thank you for giving me this gift. Suzanne – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – e-mailed and posted Hi, Mark. I didn’t see what you saw in Blain’s post.  To me, the filling in the gap thing was more about day to day stuff…like, whether people have a pleasant exchange at the check out counter or whether they bitch about the wait in line, or whether they quietly and efficiently complete their business transaction, kind of thing.  (me, I almost always chat for a moment <g). Hi, Ruby First things first. I think it was a bit unfair of me to blame Blain individually for something that would never have bothered me if it were not a collective problem: the weary fate of the ugly. Although I am long since past triggered, and you showed a genuine interest far exceeding what my original post deserved, you certainly deserve a careful response in kind. *thinking*  I wonder if anyone here would ever _guess_ that about me. I doubt it.  Because I think I’m more of a listener.  I like to listen, and a lot of my communication skills are non-verbal.  (My therapist and I were talking about this earlier this week.) <snipped part of  Blain’s post and attributes on accident all that remains from Blain’s original post. I have been reading your post with a growing unease as I progressed to each next paragraph. Perhaps what discomforts me the most, is the manner in which you seem to invalidate the value of our collective net-relationships because of your own desilusions. Maybe, and probably more distinctly cause of my annoyance, is the utter empasis on physical appearance. While I feel angry for Marla, I realize that I am primarily projecting. Being a disabled person myself, I have seen that look of yours a thousand times before on a thousand faces: shameless rejection over looks. I read this and wondered if anyone has ever thought I gave them the look you’re describing. Then I started thinking…I grew up thinking that I was ugly…not just ugly but pathetically ugly.  I tended to see what I expected to see in people’s eyes.  Now, when asked how I perceive my physical appearance, I tend to say I’m plain, but the reality is, I haven’t a clue and rarely do I even think about it… Ay, there’s the rub: if you do not have to think about it, then you’re not ugly. I, on the other hand, cannot fool myself. I am beyond plain, I am ugly. Being disabled to the extent that I am, in short comprising of quite visible deformations on my arms and legs, there is no hiding what I am. There is not a street I can walk on, not a counter I can pay my groceries at, or people are staring, or desperately trying not to stare. Especially children, who I of course do not blame, but whose honesty is nonetheless all the more painful. I have had lengthy discussions with my therp about this. My therp says he cannot change the world, and that I am the one who will have to change. If the staring bothers me, if never having had a girl-friend bothers me, then I am still the one who has to graciously accept it. But why? Later, you ask me what is wrong about relationships based on sexuality. I turn on my TV, and I see this commercial: a man in a dry-cleaning shop, surrounded by a beautiful girl, an old fat man, and an obnoxious little kid, and the narrator asking: "Who would you most like to be with?" Obviously, he is hinting to the gorgeous girl. That is what I meant by: "Blatently heraulding the inferiority of people who do not meet your physical standards." What bothers me about that, it that nobody seems to be bothered by that. Everywhere I look, I see people agreeing to the inferiority of ugly people, and they do it without any remorse or shame. But when I bring that up to my therp, he vehemently defends the rights of people to choose whoever they want. The man even had the audacity to suggest that people take to their own kind, that beautiful people tend to choose beautiful people, and ugly people tend to "choose" ugly people (which is of course a total bull statistic, because the ugly people cannot get any better, and the beautiful people do not settle for less). My shrink has this beautiful daugter, 16 years of age, and the most popular girl in school. But on mondays she has gym-class, and she gets notoriously picked last when teams are being formed, which is apparently a source of immense discomfort and social stress for her. But, being the princess that she is, it only lasts that one hour, until the next week. And I confronted my therp on this. I asked him, "Hey, if your beautiful daughter has to live through a tenth of what I have to experience each and all day for only a few minute moments a week, and really hates it, then why is it okay for her to do to me?" Whatever happened to: "Do unto others as you would like them to do unto you."? But his rebuttal is always identical: "My beautiful daughter can choose whoever she wants." And it even sounds right, freedom of choice and all. But her choices are at my expense, and whatever thoughts of consequence may prance around in that pretty little head of hers, I am sure that, despite my therapist’s many protestations, the thought must have occured to her, that if she is hurting bad because of even the tiniest of negative physical feedbacks, it must be no picknick for me either. But his point is one of unrelenting sameness: it is not her problem, but yours, and you better get used to it. Of course, he puts it more smoothly, but his buttered tongue cannot cloak the venom underneath. Hominus homini lupus est, Man is man a wolf. Each man for himself. But, Ruby, I will never resign to this. I will accept it no more than a black person should accept his inferiority for not being white. The day I will accept it, is the day I should start worrying. I am okay with this, people like you exist. I am not oblivious to physical attractions myself, of course, but realizing carnality in a carnal world is one thing. Blatently heraulding the inferiority of people who do not meet your physical standards is an other. I don’t understand this.  And I’m concerned that if I ask questions, it’ll feel invasive to you. What I mean is, that I am not oblivious to physical attraction myself. When that narrator in the commercial asked, "Who would you most like to be with?" I knew he meant the beautiful girl, because that was my choice, too — "Mine eye well knows what with his gust is ‘greeing," Shakespeare wrote. But realizing I am not impervious to physical attractions, does not make it right to discriminate other people on it. No, Ruby, my real problem is as follows: nobody ever wants to take the blame for their choices: everybody seems free to choose, no matter how that hurts me. I have, so to speak, no "perp" I can blame. I can never externalize my fate, and it is always thrown back at me. I can get mad at Blain, but he pushes it off as a mere projection of mine, and the sad part is, he is not even altogether entirely wrong about it, either. Each man for himself. Having no obvious "perp" to blame, I can never find closure, either. I cannot conquer it, children will always keep staring, and people will always remain "instantly disappointed" in me for something I can never fix: my physical appearance. Perhaps

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Response:

Hi Buff oh bruddah. this THIS is = N O T <= real life. what it basically boils down to is a bunch of people typing their brains out, sometimes to good use sometimes not. it is N O T a safe haven, a sanctuary, a church, someone’s home, etc.

It seemed to me that the point of Blain’s post was history to reach pretty much the same conclusion that you have stated here.  May be wrong, but thats the way I read it. get over it. if you don’t like what you’re reading, just stop reading it. be a grownup. exercise your right to choose.

a lot of history snipped – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Stepping back from this process, and trying to form more realistic images of people is hard.  Recognizing the limitations of what we really know about folks around here, and keeping boundaries in place regarding what we expect and how much we invest emotionally in people around here are all difficult uncomfortable things.  It’s so much more comforting to feel like here is the place, finally, where you are safe, where everybody accepts you and loves you, and where you can be and do what you want to be after all this time.  I wish it could be this, but I don’t think it can be for anybody.   Reality is harsh stuff.  Sometimes it does bite, and sometimes it’s really cool.  It’s never as fun as fantasies, an never as terrible as fears.  But it always wins because it’s real.  I’m not nearly as good at staying in reality as I would want to — I have some readjusting to do myself.  But it occurs to me that maybe we can pull some of the nastiness and scorn out of the fighting around here if we simply pull our expectations of closeness back to a more reasonable level. Establishing more realistic boundaries of trust and keeping ourselves safer.  Stuff like that. Just a few thoughts.  I’m tired, and I’m hurting. Take care, Blain — Subject is considered armed and legged.  Persecutors will be violated. http://www.pacificrim.net/~blainn/            My hat says "It’s Irony"

Response:

e-mailed and posted Hi, Mark. I didn’t see what you saw in Blain’s post.  To me, the filling in the gap thing was more about day to day stuff…like, whether people have a pleasant exchange at the check out counter or whether they bitch about the wait in line, or whether they quietly and efficiently complete their business transaction, kind of thing.  (me, I almost always chat for a moment <g). *thinking*  I wonder if anyone here would ever _guess_ that about me. I doubt it.  Because I think I’m more of a listener.  I like to listen, and a lot of my communication skills are non-verbal.  (My therapist and I were talking about this earlier this week.)   <snipped part of  Blain’s post and attributes on accident all that remains from Blain’s original post.

I have been reading your post with a growing unease as I progressed to each next paragraph. Perhaps what discomforts me the most, is the manner in which you seem to invalidate the value of our collective net-relationships because of your own desilusions. Maybe, and probably more distinctly cause of my annoyance, is the utter empasis on physical appearance. While I feel angry for Marla, I realize that I am primarily projecting. Being a disabled person myself, I have seen that look of yours a thousand times before on a thousand faces: shameless rejection over looks.

I read this and wondered if anyone has ever thought I gave them the look you’re describing.   Then I started thinking…I grew up thinking that I was ugly…not just ugly but pathetically ugly.  I tended to see what I expected to see in people’s eyes.  Now, when asked how I perceive my physical appearance, I tend to say I’m plain, but the reality is, I haven’t a clue and rarely do I even think about it…although when I’m feeling particularly rotten, I think about it.  So, there is some thing in me, that equates unattractiveness with unhappiness.  To follow this line of thought briefly, if I had to absolutely define what I consider "unattractive", it would come down to "uncared for by oneself".   Do you consider yourself unattractive because you’re disabled?  (I have a very difficult time with the word "disabled" — my own shit– because imo, I haven’t found anyone who is fully functional.  I don’t know that I could even describe what "fully functional" might mean…sheesh, this could get really convoluted.)  I don’t doubt that there are people who would consider you to be unattractive because of their own reasons.  There have been plenty of people who have considered me unattractive for their own reasons.  Not thousands though.  I don’t get out that much, and I probably wouldn’t notice anyway. I am not trying to make light of whatever challenges you deal with that I don’t.  I am hoping that you’ll help me to understand where I’m not understanding.   I am okay with this, people like you exist. I am not oblivious to physical attractions myself, of course, but realizing carnality in a carnal world is one thing. Blatently heraulding the inferiority of people who do not meet your physical standards is an other.

I don’t understand this.  And I’m concerned that if I ask questions, it’ll feel invasive to you. That you are "instantly disappointed" in Marla because she was "a bit too average looking," attests to your shallowness, yes, but it is not what aggrevates me.

Aren’t 15 year olds typically shallow about physical attractiveness? Adolescense is a time of tremendous change physically, socially, emotionally and mentally.  In my mind it’s comparable to the changes that toddlers go through. But I take exception to where you try and invalidate net-relationships not based on this physical appearance. Your whole post seems to be gathered around one recurring theme: "we are left to fill in the rest of the blanks of what each other are like based on our own imaginations." If you feel that net-relationships lack substance because they lack a physical component, then you are free to express so, but I refuse to have my relationships dragged down by your overtly sexually oriented choices. Instead of invalidating my non-physical relationships, you might consider the possibility that other people value other things in humans.

Umm…I think net relationships _can_ lack substance because of the limited exposure.  Or perhaps more accurately, they lack substance for me because I rely heavily on non-verbal clues/cues for confirmation of what people are verbalizing.  And I think for people who are relating to me, my unease with using "emoticons" can be confusing. Mark, I don’t see anything wrong with being overtly sexual.  Nor do I see where Blain invalidated non-physical relationships or was making choices based on sexuality.  I value a lot of different aspects about being human.  Including sexual and non-sexual interactions.  I am quite wary and that’s something I’ve been actively changing…and I think this is what caught my attention with your post.  I feel like you’re responding to Blain from amidst your own struggle with something here.   I have met Panther on the net. A wonderful person, who, in your book, should prolly be running away from me screaming because I do not happen to fit your notions on what is supposed to be desirable.

I figured my husband should have run screaming from me…I got really pissed at his brother who suggested the same thing.  I also don’t let many people in because I’m afraid they’ll find me incompetent…and I struggle to not correct the errors I make in my posts (which is a bit of progress over they way I wouldn’t send them, or I’d correct them after sending them or I’d just sit mortified and hope that no one noticed.)  I don’t fit my own images of what desireable means for *me*.  I am getting better at judging myself based on the standards that I judge other people by.   What you call a miss, I call the ultimate in relationships: the absence of physicalities.

*sigh*  It does minimize a lot of the complications I run into.   I have taken little things, like feeling pleasure when my husband stroked my hand one day, and made an incredible big deal about it.  I do long for the day when I’ll really *want* to share a moment of tender touching.  A quiet, gentle moment of letting someone in to share my whole self with.  And perhaps, the vaccuum within my soul would see something new and different and wonderful.  Maybe I would even gain the courage to want without reservation, to hope with substance, to bask in the possible, rather than instinctively cowering and spending far too much time and energy into talking myself out of my corner.   In here people are thrown back on their bare essence; in here there is no veigning: you are reduced to what you are inside; in here you cannot wiggle your beautiful body to make you more popular, nor can alleged planeness "instantly disappoint" people.

I disagree.  I think the key is that here, the beauty is in the eyes of the beholder rings absolute.  The beholder being the person writing.  And people who are confident in their sensuality come across as sensual sometimes…(generally). What I found in Panther over the net, is not something my eye could even see; the sum and substance of what she is, has no blanks for me to fill in, is not subject to my imagination, and appears before my heart as clearly as my eyes’ inability to notice it.

I think Panther (who I hope doesn’t get offended by this) is one of the more obviously sensual people who post here.  She’s also (again, imo) a warm, intelligent and complex person who would probably be very easy to love.  I have a lot of respect for Panther, based on what I’ve seen in the ng.  I haven’t any idea whether she chats at the check out counter… It is perhaps good to recall what the fox said to the little prince, in "Le petit Prince": It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye. ("On ne voit bien qu’avec le coeur. L’essentiel est invisible pour les yeux." )

*smile*  My heart is a pro at decyphering non-verbal communication This makes it easy to glorify each other and make any of us the perfect friend, the sibling we always wished we had, the healthy parent we wished we had, or whatever.  This makes for a pretty huge expectation that we don’t state because we don’t even realize we’re doing it.  When someone fails to live up to that expectation, or fails to live in the mold we’ve tried to force them into, we feel betrayed. Why are you constantly talking in plural? Speak for yourself, please.

This was something that I struggled with when I first logged on to irc.  Still do on some level, actually.  That doesn’t negate your point of speaking on a personal level (and one that I’ve done more than a few times…probably done it here too, but I’m too tired to go back and look). I have never tried to force Panther to live in the a mold of serene outward beauty — this is all your own disappointments speaking, and I never tried to make her "the perfect friend". I just saw her for the wonderful woman she is, with all it took to see it: my heart, and I fell in love with her. If you feel betrayed because your net-relationships could not live up to your romantic fantasies, then I can certainly see your disappointments. But perhaps you have not been looking for the rights things then. That is of course not for me to determine, but nor is it your place to arbitrarily invalidate relationships of other people that are based on something else than sexual appeal as their primary foundation. – Mark

Take care, Ruby – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text — For more information about this posting service, contact:

… read more »

Response:

Hi Buff oh bruddah. this THIS is = N O T <= real life.

True.  And, yet, it is real.  The feelings are real.  The people are real.  The words are as real as any words ever are.   what it basically boils down to is a bunch of people typing their brains out, sometimes to good use sometimes not.

Yes. it is N O T a safe haven, a sanctuary, a church, someone’s home, etc.

True again. It seemed to me that the point of Blain’s post was history to reach pretty much the same conclusion that you have stated here.  May be wrong, but thats the way I read it.

These are parts of what I was talking about.   get over it.

Get over what? if you don’t like what you’re reading, just stop reading it. be a grownup. exercise your right to choose.

I do that, but what has that to do with what I wrote? Take care, Blain —                   http://www.pacificrim.net/~blainn/ In the time it takes you to read this sig, somebody somewhere will see a Make Money Fast post for the first time.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, when Marla and I saw each other for the first time, we were mutually instantly disappointed in each other — it was obvious probably to both of us.  I’ve never spoken with Marla about the experience (I think I saw her a handful of times after this and never spoke with her about much of anything), but my guess is that we both wanted the other to be really attractive and to fit some fantasy we had built up about each other, and the reality was that we were both a bit too average looking. I have been reading your post with a growing unease as I progressed to each next paragraph. Perhaps what discomforts me the most, is the manner in which you seem to invalidate the value of our collective net-relationships because of your own desilusions. Maybe, and probably more distinctly cause of my annoyance, is the utter empasis on physical appearance. While I feel angry for Marla, I realize that I am primarily projecting. Being a disabled person myself, I have seen that look of yours a thousand times before on a thousand faces: shameless rejection over looks. I am okay with this, people like you exist. I am not oblivious to physical attractions myself, of course, but realizing carnality in a carnal world is one thing. Blatently heraulding the inferiority of people who do not meet your physical standards is an other.

Okay, let’s straighten things out just slightly and I’ll let the rest of your comments stand — the disappointment was mutual, meaning she was every bit as disappointed in my appearance as I was in hers.  I didn’t, as it turns out, reject her over her appearance — she rejected me in favor of Bill.  Bill and I later were in an English class together, and seemed to get along okay — we weren’t close. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – That you are "instantly disappointed" in Marla because she was "a bit too average looking," attests to your shallowness, yes, but it is not what aggrevates me. But I take exception to where you try and invalidate net-relationships not based on this physical appearance. Your whole post seems to be gathered around one recurring theme: "we are left to fill in the rest of the blanks of what each other are like based on our own imaginations." If you feel that net-relationships lack substance because they lack a physical component, then you are free to express so, but I refuse to have my relationships dragged down by your overtly sexually oriented choices. Instead of invalidating my non-physical relationships, you might consider the possibility that other people value other things in humans.

Of course I was shallow — I was 17.  You expected more? We can distinguish between things that are known from face-to-face experiences and sexual experiences, can’t we?  My interest in Marla, Cindy and, ultimately, my wife, was not primarily sexual in nature.  If anything, it was more romantic in nature — wanting someone to be with, be safe with, belong with, and grow with.   I am saying that there are important pieces of information about a person that go well beyond sexual attractiveness which are readily apparent in in-person contact that are simply not available in strictly electronic relationships.  Different portions of personality which are available and presented.   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have met Panther on the net. A wonderful person, who, in your book, should prolly be running away from me screaming because I do not happen to fit your notions on what is supposed to be desirable. What you call a miss, I call the ultimate in relationships: the absence of physicalities. In here people are thrown back on their bare essence; in here there is no veigning: you are reduced to what you are inside; in here you cannot wiggle your beautiful body to make you more popular, nor can alleged planeness "instantly disappoint" people. What I found in Panther over the net, is not something my eye could even see; the sum and substance of what she is, has no blanks for me to fill in, is not subject to my imagination, and appears before my heart as clearly as my eyes’ inability to notice it. It is perhaps good to recall what the fox said to the little prince, in "Le petit Prince": It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye. ("On ne voit bien qu’avec le coeur. L’essentiel est invisible pour les yeux." )

I don’t suggest or expect Panther or anybody else to run from you screaming — that’s not what I’m talking about at all.   There is a different aspect to strictly electronic relationships that I didn’t address.  In addition to our ability (I would say need) to fill in the gaps of what we know about someone (at least in a general way) is the inability to present a complete picture of who we are simply through our fingers.  I agree that we present parts of ourselves through this medium that we would not present otherwise, so there is an extra intimacy to this that isn’t available in other places.  But there are parts of ourselves which we don’t present as easily here which are obvious in in-person communications.   I’m not saying that either in-person or electronic contacts present a perfect or superiour impression of who people are.  Rather, I’m pointing out the incompleteness of both with extra attention to the incompleteness of electronic contacts because that’s where we are. This makes it easy to glorify each other and make any of us the perfect friend, the sibling we always wished we had, the healthy parent we wished we had, or whatever.  This makes for a pretty huge expectation that we don’t state because we don’t even realize we’re doing it. When someone fails to live up to that expectation, or fails to live in the mold we’ve tried to force them into, we feel betrayed. Why are you constantly talking in plural? Speak for yourself, please.

Ah.  I’m the only person who has ever done any of these things ever? Thanks for the isolation attempt. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have never tried to force Panther to live in the a mold of serene outward beauty — this is all your own disappointments speaking, and I never tried to make her "the perfect friend". I just saw her for the wonderful woman she is, with all it took to see it: my heart, and I fell in love with her. If you feel betrayed because your net-relationships could not live up to your romantic fantasies, then I can certainly see your disappointments. But perhaps you have not been looking for the rights things then. That is of course not for me to determine, but nor is it your place to arbitrarily invalidate relationships of other people that are based on something else than sexual appeal as their primary foundation.

Well, thanks for pointing to this whole aspect of what I wrote that goes well beyond anything I even considered.  I’m not sure where the idea that I had the power to validate or invalidate anyone’s relationship came from, anymore than I have any idea where you got the idea that all I’m interested in is sexual appeal.  I have no opinion on the nature of your relationship with Panther — I know nothing about it and consider the matter to not be my business one way or the other. – Mark

Take care, Blain —                http://www.pacificrim.net/~blainn/abuse/

Response:

I hurt today. Yet again I am watching people I care about carefully slicing each other up with words calculated to hurt as much as possible.  And I bleed, a bit, too. And I’m left wondering what is it about this place that this happens over and over and over again.  And I think I see some of what’s going on.

Hello Blain. In my more humble opinion, and for whatever its worth, we come to this forum (AAR) with "baggage". Suitcases loaded down with all different sorts of items and emotions. Many of us have had trying times, both in the past and in the present. A desire to have our luggage lost while in transit, is a wish many of share. But back to Earth, we can’t just simply pack things up and put them neatly into the attic. We come here seeking… well, I don’t really know what we seek. But whatever it is, we rarely ever find it. During our quest for that invisible attic, we encounter others, others much like our own selves. Occasionally we hit it off very nicely, occassionally we rub up against others. Then, there are those we just plain aggrovate (vise-versa, too). Recognizing that we "all" will never always get along, is the first step towards harmony within any organization (or forum). We will argue together, cry together, and sometimes, love together. (I prefer the latter) We do all of these things in an attempt to pack away our bags and move foward into a better place. I hope to see you there when you arrive. Many years ago I met a girl on the telephone.

[Text removed only to conserve bandwidth] Just a few thoughts.  I’m tired, and I’m hurting.

I heard you thinking… rest now and I hope to take some of that pain away. Happy holidays Blain… everyone else, too! Dennis. Take care, Blain — Subject is considered armed and legged.  Persecutors will be violated. http://www.pacificrim.net/~blainn/            My hat says "It’s Irony"

– To respond to this post, simply replace NO_SPAM with nortel. Dennis (Bermy)

Response:

oh bruddah. this THIS is = N O T <= real life. what it basically boils down to is a bunch of people typing their brains out, sometimes to good use sometimes not. it is N O T a safe haven, a sanctuary, a church, someone’s home, etc. get over it. if you don’t like what you’re reading, just stop reading it. be a grownup. exercise your right to choose. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I hurt today.   Yet again I am watching people I care about carefully slicing each other up with words calculated to hurt as much as possible.  And I bleed, a bit, too. And I’m left wondering what is it about this place that this happens over and over and over again.  And I think I see some of what’s going on. Many years ago I met a girl on the telephone.  Marla was a friend of a friend named Wendi (and step-sister of another friend, as it turns out).  Since we met on the phone, neither of us could see each other, and we had no real knowledge of each other other than our voices and our words.   And we got along really really well.  I was almost 17, Marla was 15 or so.  She and Wendi lived in the next town down the road.  We were talking about going out and stuff like that.  And then she started talking about this other guy named Bill who lived in the same town I did.  Bill was a year or two younger than me, and we hadn’t met.  So we worked out a way that we could meet each other — Wendi had a huge crush on a friend of mine named Chris, and Chris and I rode bikes the 10-15 miles to the next town to see them. Well, when Marla and I saw each other for the first time, we were mutually instantly disappointed in each other — it was obvious probably to both of us.  I’ve never spoken with Marla about the experience (I think I saw her a handful of times after this and never spoke with her about much of anything), but my guess is that we both wanted the other to be really attractive and to fit some fantasy we had built up about each other, and the reality was that we were both a bit too average looking.  Bill and a friend of his came over, and he and Marla got along famously for a while, and, after a few hours of discomfort (during which time Wendi was doing her best to hang all over Chris), we pedalled our way back home.   A year or so later I met a girl in the line to a rock concert (Nik Kershaw, for those who care).  I was 18, and she was 15 or 16.  Cindi lived in Canada.  She had a friend named April.  James, who I was there with, and I discussed which of the girls we liked better.  We both were more interested in April, so I decided to get out of his way and talk to Cindi.  So Cindi and I began talking via phone calls (international LD calls, mind you).  Regularly.  And things were really going well — we got along really well and talked for hours and hours (shudder).  We saw each other two times after that.  I took her to a dance for one of those times — April came down and she and James sort of paired off a bit, but nothing much happened.  Some time after this, James went up and saw Cindi and they slept with each other.  A week or two after this, we split up, under the "let’s be friends" umbrella.  After a while, she began talking with another friend, and, on a trip down this way, I saw her while she was sort-of going out with the other friend — when she left, I wished her a nice life, which apparently really shook her up. The last I heard from her was when I was up in Canada for a dance that wasn’t too far from where Cindi lived, so I called her at home and talked with her.  She ended the conversation asking me not to call again — so much for being friends, huh? And then years went by and I got married and began using computers and calling BBSs and stuff.  And I had some on-line friend relationships with some people on a certain BBS.  One of them killed herself, and, in respect for her wishes, we came to a dance that the others were at and we danced to a certain song together in memory of her.  And we met most of the people from the board.  One of the people there was someone I had been having major disagreements with on the board (I know it’s hard to believe I would be having lengthy arguments with anybody, but it’s true nonetheless).  After meeting in-person, he started using my age (youth, really) against me in arguments, and shortly thereafter I left the board.   A couple years later, I started my own BBS and joined a network which had a tradition of Get Togethers.  The board’s been up five years now, and we’ve had GTs on a almost regular basis to the point that most of the people who used this BBS software in this area know each other, and I know a number of people from the Seattle area on the network, including the programming team. And then I got my internet account at school and discovered usenet and mail lists and that brings us to here and now. Through these experiences, I have found that electronic connections between people seem to bring with them a feeling of extra closeness — there are things I’ve spoken about in these types of forums that I haven’t spoken with with many people.  Heck, this is an example of that.  I think part of it comes from the fact that all we have to go on in learning about each other is words on the screen — even less than Marla and I had to go on with each other.  So we are left to fill in the rest of the blanks of what each other are like based on our own imaginations. This makes it easy to glorify each other and make any of us the perfect friend, the sibling we always wished we had, the healthy parent we wished we had, or whatever.  This makes for a pretty huge expectation that we don’t state because we don’t even realize we’re doing it.  When someone fails to live up to that expectation, or fails to live in the mold we’ve tried to force them into, we feel betrayed.   Now we can reform them in the image of the former friend, the nasty sibling or parent we really did have, the former abuser we really did have, and maybe even the abuser of our nightmares who was worse than anything that really happened.  Of course, we can also do this with anybody in the group who reminds us of those people anyway, and thus many people find themselves being blind-sided in this group because they’ve triggered someone else with no idea they’ve done it. Stepping back from this process, and trying to form more realistic images of people is hard.  Recognizing the limitations of what we really know about folks around here, and keeping boundaries in place regarding what we expect and how much we invest emotionally in people around here are all difficult uncomfortable things.  It’s so much more comforting to feel like here is the place, finally, where you are safe, where everybody accepts you and loves you, and where you can be and do what you want to be after all this time.  I wish it could be this, but I don’t think it can be for anybody.   Reality is harsh stuff.  Sometimes it does bite, and sometimes it’s really cool.  It’s never as fun as fantasies, an never as terrible as fears.  But it always wins because it’s real.  I’m not nearly as good at staying in reality as I would want to — I have some readjusting to do myself.  But it occurs to me that maybe we can pull some of the nastiness and scorn out of the fighting around here if we simply pull our expectations of closeness back to a more reasonable level. Establishing more realistic boundaries of trust and keeping ourselves safer.  Stuff like that. Just a few thoughts.  I’m tired, and I’m hurting. Take care, Blain — Subject is considered armed and legged.  Persecutors will be violated. http://www.pacificrim.net/~blainn/            My hat says "It’s Irony"

Response:

Blain this is a very thoughtful post with a lot of ideaas worth spending some time thinking about.  Thank you – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I hurt today.   Yet again I am watching people I care about carefully slicing each other up with words calculated to hurt as much as possible.  And I bleed, a bit, too. And I’m left wondering what is it about this place that this happens over and over and over again.  And I think I see some of what’s going on. Many years ago I met a girl on the telephone.  Marla was a friend of a friend named Wendi (and step-sister of another friend, as it turns out).  Since we met on the phone, neither of us could see each other, and we had no real knowledge of each other other than our voices and our words.   And we got along really really well.  I was almost 17, Marla was 15 or so.  She and Wendi lived in the next town down the road.  We were talking about going out and stuff like that.  And then she started talking about this other guy named Bill who lived in the same town I did.  Bill was a year or two younger than me, and we hadn’t met.  So we worked out a way that we could meet each other — Wendi had a huge crush on a friend of mine named Chris, and Chris and I rode bikes the 10-15 miles to the next town to see them. Well, when Marla and I saw each other for the first time, we were mutually instantly disappointed in each other — it was obvious probably to both of us.  I’ve never spoken with Marla about the experience (I think I saw her a handful of times after this and never spoke with her about much of anything), but my guess is that we both wanted the other to be really attractive and to fit some fantasy we had built up about each other, and the reality was that we were both a bit too average looking.  Bill and a friend of his came over, and he and Marla got along famously for a while, and, after a few hours of discomfort (during which time Wendi was doing her best to hang all over Chris), we pedalled our way back home.   A year or so later I met a girl in the line to a rock concert (Nik Kershaw, for those who care).  I was 18, and she was 15 or 16.  Cindi lived in Canada.  She had a friend named April.  James, who I was there with, and I discussed which of the girls we liked better.  We both were more interested in April, so I decided to get out of his way and talk to Cindi.  So Cindi and I began talking via phone calls (international LD calls, mind you).  Regularly.  And things were really going well — we got along really well and talked for hours and hours (shudder).  We saw each other two times after that.  I took her to a dance for one of those times — April came down and she and James sort of paired off a bit, but nothing much happened.  Some time after this, James went up and saw Cindi and they slept with each other.  A week or two after this, we split up, under the "let’s be friends" umbrella.  After a while, she began talking with another friend, and, on a trip down this way, I saw her while she was sort-of going out with the other friend — when she left, I wished her a nice life, which apparently really shook her up. The last I heard from her was when I was up in Canada for a dance that wasn’t too far from where Cindi lived, so I called her at home and talked with her.  She ended the conversation asking me not to call again — so much for being friends, huh? And then years went by and I got married and began using computers and calling BBSs and stuff.  And I had some on-line friend relationships with some people on a certain BBS.  One of them killed herself, and, in respect for her wishes, we came to a dance that the others were at and we danced to a certain song together in memory of her.  And we met most of the people from the board.  One of the people there was someone I had been having major disagreements with on the board (I know it’s hard to believe I would be having lengthy arguments with anybody, but it’s true nonetheless).  After meeting in-person, he started using my age (youth, really) against me in arguments, and shortly thereafter I left the board.   A couple years later, I started my own BBS and joined a network which had a tradition of Get Togethers.  The board’s been up five years now, and we’ve had GTs on a almost regular basis to the point that most of the people who used this BBS software in this area know each other, and I know a number of people from the Seattle area on the network, including the programming team. And then I got my internet account at school and discovered usenet and mail lists and that brings us to here and now. Through these experiences, I have found that electronic connections between people seem to bring with them a feeling of extra closeness — there are things I’ve spoken about in these types of forums that I haven’t spoken with with many people.  Heck, this is an example of that.  I think part of it comes from the fact that all we have to go on in learning about each other is words on the screen — even less than Marla and I had to go on with each other.  So we are left to fill in the rest of the blanks of what each other are like based on our own imaginations. This makes it easy to glorify each other and make any of us the perfect friend, the sibling we always wished we had, the healthy parent we wished we had, or whatever.  This makes for a pretty huge expectation that we don’t state because we don’t even realize we’re doing it.  When someone fails to live up to that expectation, or fails to live in the mold we’ve tried to force them into, we feel betrayed.   Now we can reform them in the image of the former friend, the nasty sibling or parent we really did have, the former abuser we really did have, and maybe even the abuser of our nightmares who was worse than anything that really happened.  Of course, we can also do this with anybody in the group who reminds us of those people anyway, and thus many people find themselves being blind-sided in this group because they’ve triggered someone else with no idea they’ve done it. Stepping back from this process, and trying to form more realistic images of people is hard.  Recognizing the limitations of what we really know about folks around here, and keeping boundaries in place regarding what we expect and how much we invest emotionally in people around here are all difficult uncomfortable things.  It’s so much more comforting to feel like here is the place, finally, where you are safe, where everybody accepts you and loves you, and where you can be and do what you want to be after all this time.  I wish it could be this, but I don’t think it can be for anybody.   Reality is harsh stuff.  Sometimes it does bite, and sometimes it’s really cool.  It’s never as fun as fantasies, an never as terrible as fears.  But it always wins because it’s real.  I’m not nearly as good at staying in reality as I would want to — I have some readjusting to do myself.  But it occurs to me that maybe we can pull some of the nastiness and scorn out of the fighting around here if we simply pull our expectations of closeness back to a more reasonable level. Establishing more realistic boundaries of trust and keeping ourselves safer.  Stuff like that. Just a few thoughts.  I’m tired, and I’m hurting. Take care, Blain — Subject is considered armed and legged.  Persecutors will be violated. http://www.pacificrim.net/~blainn/            My hat says "It’s Irony"

Response:

I hurt today.   Yet again I am watching people I care about carefully slicing each other up with words calculated to hurt as much as possible.  And I bleed, a bit, too. And I’m left wondering what is it about this place that this happens over and over and over again.  And I think I see some of what’s going on. Many years ago I met a girl on the telephone.  Marla was a friend of a friend named Wendi (and step-sister of another friend, as it turns out).  Since we met on the phone, neither of us could see each other, and we had no real knowledge of each other other than our voices and our words.   And we got along really really well.  I was almost 17, Marla was 15 or so.  She and Wendi lived in the next town down the road.  We were talking about going out and stuff like that.  And then she started talking about this other guy named Bill who lived in the same town I did.  Bill was a year or two younger than me, and we hadn’t met.  So we worked out a way that we could meet each other — Wendi had a huge crush on a friend of mine named Chris, and Chris and I rode bikes the 10-15 miles to the next town to see them. Well, when Marla and I saw each other for the first time, we were mutually instantly disappointed in each other — it was obvious probably to both of us.  I’ve never spoken with Marla about the experience (I think I saw her a handful of times after this and never spoke with her about much of anything), but my guess is that we both wanted the other to be really attractive and to fit some fantasy we had built up about each other, and the reality was that we were both a bit too average looking.  Bill and a friend of his came over, and he and Marla got along famously for a while, and, after a few hours of discomfort (during which time Wendi was doing her best to hang all over Chris), we pedalled our way back home.   A year or so later I met a girl in the line to a rock concert (Nik Kershaw, for those who care).  I was 18, and she was 15 or 16.  Cindi lived in Canada.  She had a friend named April.  James, who I was there with, and I discussed which of the girls we liked better.  We both were more interested in April, so I decided to get out of his way and talk to Cindi.  So Cindi and I began talking via phone calls (international LD calls, mind you).  Regularly.  And things were really going well — we got along really well and talked for hours and hours (shudder).  We saw each other two times after that.  I took her to a dance for one of those times — April came down and she and James sort of paired off a bit, but nothing much happened.  Some time after this, James went up and saw Cindi and they slept with each other.  A week or two after this, we split up, under the "let’s be friends" umbrella.  After a while, she began talking with another friend, and, on a trip down this way, I saw her while she was sort-of going out with the other friend — when she left, I wished her a nice life, which apparently really shook her up. The last I heard from her was when I was up in Canada for a dance that wasn’t too far from where Cindi lived, so I called her at home and talked with her.  She ended the conversation asking me not to call again — so much for being friends, huh? And then years went by and I got married and began using computers and calling BBSs and stuff.  And I had some on-line friend relationships with some people on a certain BBS.  One of them killed herself, and, in respect for her wishes, we came to a dance that the others were at and we danced to a certain song together in memory of her.  And we met most of the people from the board.  One of the people there was someone I had been having major disagreements with on the board (I know it’s hard to believe I would be having lengthy arguments with anybody, but it’s true nonetheless).  After meeting in-person, he started using my age (youth, really) against me in arguments, and shortly thereafter I left the board.   A couple years later, I started my own BBS and joined a network which had a tradition of Get Togethers.  The board’s been up five years now, and we’ve had GTs on a almost regular basis to the point that most of the people who used this BBS software in this area know each other, and I know a number of people from the Seattle area on the network, including the programming team. And then I got my internet account at school and discovered usenet and mail lists and that brings us to here and now. Through these experiences, I have found that electronic connections between people seem to bring with them a feeling of extra closeness — there are things I’ve spoken about in these types of forums that I haven’t spoken with with many people.  Heck, this is an example of that.  I think part of it comes from the fact that all we have to go on in learning about each other is words on the screen — even less than Marla and I had to go on with each other.  So we are left to fill in the rest of the blanks of what each other are like based on our own imaginations. This makes it easy to glorify each other and make any of us the perfect friend, the sibling we always wished we had, the healthy parent we wished we had, or whatever.  This makes for a pretty huge expectation that we don’t state because we don’t even realize we’re doing it.  When someone fails to live up to that expectation, or fails to live in the mold we’ve tried to force them into, we feel betrayed.   Now we can reform them in the image of the former friend, the nasty sibling or parent we really did have, the former abuser we really did have, and maybe even the abuser of our nightmares who was worse than anything that really happened.  Of course, we can also do this with anybody in the group who reminds us of those people anyway, and thus many people find themselves being blind-sided in this group because they’ve triggered someone else with no idea they’ve done it. Stepping back from this process, and trying to form more realistic images of people is hard.  Recognizing the limitations of what we really know about folks around here, and keeping boundaries in place regarding what we expect and how much we invest emotionally in people around here are all difficult uncomfortable things.  It’s so much more comforting to feel like here is the place, finally, where you are safe, where everybody accepts you and loves you, and where you can be and do what you want to be after all this time.  I wish it could be this, but I don’t think it can be for anybody.   Reality is harsh stuff.  Sometimes it does bite, and sometimes it’s really cool.  It’s never as fun as fantasies, an never as terrible as fears.  But it always wins because it’s real.  I’m not nearly as good at staying in reality as I would want to — I have some readjusting to do myself.  But it occurs to me that maybe we can pull some of the nastiness and scorn out of the fighting around here if we simply pull our expectations of closeness back to a more reasonable level. Establishing more realistic boundaries of trust and keeping ourselves safer.  Stuff like that. Just a few thoughts.  I’m tired, and I’m hurting. Take care, Blain — Subject is considered armed and legged.  Persecutors will be violated. http://www.pacificrim.net/~blainn/            My hat says "It’s Irony"

Response:

Question:

Frankly, you’d be nuts if you weren’t depressed by this state of affairs. Ask your doc about antidepressants. Mel Headcat (head…@headcat.com) wrote:

: Does anyone else experience "emotional" symptoms when their : allergies/sinusitis is acting up? I find that I get *extremely* : depressed (low-spirited, hopeless, negative, generally defeated-feeling) : when my allergies kick in. : : I was allergy-free until I turned 40, but after that I started to notice : stuffyness, sneezing, sore throat, etc. whenever I was outdoors for any : length of time. Each year it got a little worse and finally last summer : it seemed to really "blossom" – I had what seemed like a whopper cold : that lasted literally from April through September. I had hoped the : arrival of cold weather would clear things up, but instead it got worse : – the allergy stuffyness/sneezing/etc. eased seamlessly into what was : first diagnosed as bronchitis and later recognized as pneumonia; I spent : November and December in bed and am truly just starting to feel good : again. But the damn allergy stuff is starting all over again! I’ve : learned to stay indoors a lot and that helps, as do antihistamines, etc. : But I seem to notice that in addition to the standard stuff, I also feel : distinctly depressed whenever the allergy thing is in high gear. Has : anyone else noticed this in conjunction with allergies/sinusitis? Or am : I nuts as well as allergic? : : Any input from other allergy sufferers is most gratefully welcomed. This : stuff as me about at my wits end!! The doctors I saw for pneumonia said : the allergies wouldn’t have had anything to do with it, but I find that : hard to believe. Anyone else experienced anything similar? : : R.A. Butters : — Mel Billik in Michigan Remember: if you can keep your head about you when all around you are in a panic … perhaps you don’t totally understand the situation!

Response:

Headcat, Are you taking decongestants when your allergies act up? I find that decongestants of ANY kind make me depressed, and the longer I take them the worse it gets. Clare

Response:

I finally found a psychiatrist who diagnosed my depression and related it to an early start with chronic allergies and sinusitis.  I’m now 39 and have had 7 surgeries (maybe 6 – they all blend together).  I am also allergic to aspirin and have found that I can’t take Ibuprofen or ANYTHING except 650 mg. of tylenol/acetominophen. H

Response:

In article <338CAD05.7…@iname.com

, Clare <cl…@iname.com wrote: Headcat, Are you taking decongestants when your allergies act up? I find that decongestants of ANY kind make me depressed, and the longer I take them the worse it gets. Clare

I’d like to echo what Clare said…many decongestants even advise that they can cause negative symptoms…related to nervous irritation or anxiety. COnsistent or excessive use of thiese medications have made me feel "depressed" in the past. I’d sooner irrigate, take papaya, or use very limited amounts of a prescribed spray. (Livostin is my choice.)

Response:

Question:

If I understand you correctly, I tend to agree.  I am tired of hearing the opinions of people who simply cannot understand and appreciate what anxiety disorders can do to a person’s life and what medical treatments can do as coping mechanisms.  If those who oppose the medical treatment for anxiety (or anything else) could sway the medical community, THEIR day-to-day lives would remain largely unaffected, whereas OURS would become much more difficult.  And what would they care?

<snipped for space I doubt they would – they’d continue to bask in the happy glow of their neo-puritanism. I realise this thread is cross-posted to Hades and back, but I’m responding to it via alt.support.anxiety-panic and over here we have a steady stream of people breezing in with anti-medication rants. Some of them are so strange they defy comprehension, like the noted anti-benzodiazepine troller who posed as a doctor so as to slander a qualified psychiatrist who frequents the group. When unmasked and pilloried, he simply carried on under his own name, spreading the usual lies and distortions of this type of campaigner without skipping a beat. Sadly, here in the UK, the ‘tough it out’ school seems to have gained quite a sway in the medical profession too. Presumably, no one has stopped to count the suicides and wrecked lives caused by this. — Gary Cooper

Response:

I just want to start of by saying that I agree wholeheartedly with the person who stated that drug therapy is a crutch. I just can’t resist putting in my two cents worth.  I’ll tell you one thing, if I break my leg you can bet your a… I mean you can be sure that I will use a crutch…..Hmmm… of course, I just may also want to get my leg set somewhere along the way?  What do you think?  I told you it was just two cents worth

If I understand you correctly, I tend to agree.  I am tired of hearing the opinions of people who simply cannot understand and appreciate what anxiety disorders can do to a person’s life and what medical treatments can do as coping mechanisms.  If those who oppose the medical treatment for anxiety (or anything else) could sway the medical community, THEIR day-to-day lives would remain largely unaffected, whereas OURS would become much more difficult.  And what would they care? As you pointed out, even a crutch in the literal sense is a necessity — sometimes a temporary one, and unfortunately, sometimes a long-term one.  I’d dare say that there’s not a single one among us who wouldn’t like to free him/herself from anxiety and toss the pills out forever.  But we don’t always have that luxury. — Halifax, N.S.     (The "ra" has been added to preclude junk mail)

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –         I just want to start of by saying that I agree wholeheartedly with the person who stated that drug therapy is a crutch.         The notion that brings up for me is that crutches are for crippled people.  And therefore the appropriateness of said crutch would depend mightily on the view the individual took of themselves, whether they saw themselves as broken or not.         I don’t pass judgement on anyone’s self view – I simply do not, personally, see any people as broken.  Those of you who do think you are broken – this post is not for you. For the rest of you, here is a brief story about what works:         Friend of mine had multiple phobias.  Basically, she was raped many years ago, and had panic attacks following the rapes, and the panic got generalized to lots of various things – and all those things ended up acting as anchors – triggering phobic attacks.  Pretty messy stuff.

From what you describe, it would seem that your friend did not have phobias or SP, but rather was suffering from PTSD. G.M.

Response:

   I just want to start of by saying that I agree wholeheartedly with the person who stated that drug therapy is a crutch.  

Of course drugs are crutches. Such drugs as insulin act as a crutch for a lame pancreas (Ok, Else of Langerhands or some such…). Others seem to assist lame brains… In the latter category however there seems to be an attitude of the general popluation that ‘well I don’t need Prosac, or older Valium, or older yet some set of herbals, or perhaps their industrial strength distilates, such as Heroin, so why does anyone else?’. On the other hand, it seems to be in vogue in certain psychotherapy settings that the watchword is ‘Drugs not Hugs’, as ‘Hugs’ could be interpreted wrongly, whereas drugs have a pretty unequivical meaning, ‘I want you sedated, or at least managable, and this can in no way be interpreted as a sexual overture, so we can maintain our strictly contained positions as therapist and patient.’

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –        I just want to start of by saying that I agree wholeheartedly with the person who stated that drug therapy is a crutch.   Of course drugs are crutches. Such drugs as insulin act as a crutch for a lame pancreas (Ok, Else of Langerhands or some such…). Others seem to assist lame brains… In the latter category however there seems to be an attitude of the general popluation that ‘well I don’t need Prosac, or older Valium, or older yet some set of herbals, or perhaps their industrial strength distilates, such as Heroin, so why does anyone else?’. On the other hand, it seems to be in vogue in certain psychotherapy settings that the watchword is ‘Drugs not Hugs’, as ‘Hugs’ could be interpreted wrongly, whereas drugs have a pretty unequivical meaning, ‘I want you sedated, or at least managable, and this can in no way be interpreted as a sexual overture, so we can maintain our strictly contained positions as therapist and patient.’

I just can’t resist putting in my two cents worth.  I’ll tell you one thing, if I break my leg you can bet your a… I mean you can be sure that I will use a crutch…..Hmmm… of course, I just may also want to get my leg set somewhere along the way?  What do you think?  I told you it was just two cents worth wiz

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It should be noted that I have tried NLP with no luck (actually it was effective for about 30 mins and then I was back to normal), Just a thought if you are willing to listen. The first time you rode a bike did you succeed 100%??  Or did you try and then have to make another attempt before you rode successfully?? Maybe even several or dozens on attempts!!  Did all go to plan the very first or did you have to see what went right, what went wrong, assess, re-adjust and then take the good bits and try something slightly new to see it that worked better. My point is this.  Discover what is was about NLP that made it work for 30 minutes.  Take that knowledge and work on it….get some new info and try it to see if it works.  Keep building on that.  I’m sure, as much as you also know in yourself, that you will be riding that NLP bike fluently very soon and be over your anxiety.  If it worked to 30 minutes there is NOTHING stopping it working for 1 hour, or maybe 1 day, or maybe even a year.  Hey…here is an idea….why not the rest of your life.  Now isn’t that a possibility or moreso a reality. I would first like to point out that social phobia and agoraphobia are not like the usual ("specific") phobia, which is a strong fear response to a specific stimulus.  (For that matter, neither is fear of flying.)   The NLP phobia cure may not be completely successful with social phobia, if at all.  

        Which NLP phobia cure?  Far as I know, there are several.           Myself, I have used kinesthetic swishes very effectively with social phobia (after checking for ecological things, as I believe swishing kinesthetically can lead to problems if not done carefully).         I did the flying one with myself using a visual swish, did it with a client using a visual swish and some future-pacing stuff.         I can’t reclal using the "watching yourself watching yourself in a theatre" one very often – maybe once, with a spider phobia.  Mostly just to see if it worked, which it did.  I really prefer swishing myself – particularly cuz of the generative aspects. My personal opinion is that a very good NLP practitioner would probably be successful in curing social phobia, although it might take several sessions.  However, it’s important to realize that this is not a matter of using some standard technique such as the phobia cure, so the skill and experience of the practitioner will probably be very crucial.

        I would hope that it is NEVER a matter of simply using techniques. Techniques are like brushes and paints, they’re just the tools the artists uses in creating the art. Secondly, I have to say that, unlike for the case of specific phobias, my opinion is not backed by personal experience in dealing with social phobias or reports from other practitioners of successful experience. It’s simply based on the fact that I know that NLP is very good for a lot of other problems, so it ought to be good for this too.

        Try a few, Lee.  They’re not all that difficult.  It’s pretty c00l.         For me, I didn’t have any idea that any phobia was different from any other.  Maybe that’s why I just tried stuff and it worked.  It’s rare that the first thing I try always works, but if ya got an hour or two, that’s plenty of times to run through a few things till you find the one that does.         I’ve even done ‘em online – is amazing how folks will just let ya do therapy on them on the net.  I’ve posted previously both about a kid on a BBS who I lead through his panic attacks upon talking to girls, and also a heights phobia I did with a woman online on an adult BBS.   For this reason, although I would encourage the poster to remain open to the possibility that some day he may find someone who can use NLP to help him, I am reluctant to give him advice that may result in his going to practitioner after practitioner, spending lots of time and emotional energy without finding one who is competent to give him real help.  

        I see your point.  And I disagree.           I know darned well, have no doubt whatsoever, that *I* could fix this d00d’s problem.  I know a number of other folks I would recommend unhesitatingly.  One session most likely, at the most two.         And you, Lee, from what I have read of your posts and some in your archives – I wonder how someone as skilled as you have become can find a way to believe that he might not be able to do this too.  I find that it makes me curious.  Atlanta, GA                      http://www.instatek.com/nlp/

Response:

Standard disclaimers apply.  I’m not a physician, but I’ve been through this stuff and am basing my statements on my experience. Hi All,   Some time ago I was diagnosed as having anxiety, panic attacks and social phobias. Over the past year or so I have been on Clonazepam (1 tablet, twice a day) with some results but I don’t feel I’m cured. As a result, I have been looking into other options, one which has been recommended to me is Sertraline (Zoloft?). As a result, I am going off the Clonazepam (I’m down to half a tablet, once a day) and I am experiencing quite a bit of anxiety/panic, as much as if not more than I originally started with. I have a couple questions regarding the above: 1 – Is this return of anxiety normal?

Yes. 2 – Any chance that it’s just temporary?

Who knows?  Only time will tell.  I wouldn’t count on it, though. 3 – How successful is this Sertralinbe? 4 – Any known long term side effects of Sertraline?

It’s a completely different class of drug.  Clonazepam is a benzodiazepine, which is specifically an anxiolytic.  Zoloft is an antidepressant. Frankly, I found Zoloft completely useless, and I didn’t like the side-effects.  Prozac is much better for me, though I don’t take it now. I’m not sure whether Sertraline is Zoloft or Serzone, but it’s one of them, and I’ve tried both.  Serzone didn’t do anything for me either, but at least there were no side-effects. I’m bipolar, and as far as I can tell, Neurontin is the fruit of the gods.  It’s an anticonvulsant like Tegretol, and it hasn’t even been approved for psychiatric use yet, so I had to sign all these "I will not sue you" papers.  They tell you that it takes so-and-so-many weeks to work, but in my experience, it works fast enough that it could even be used PRN.  One tablet and 30 minutes can pull me out of a very dark depression. 5 – Is Sertraline addictive or can it cause dependancy?

It shouldn’t, but it’s relatively new, of course. 6 – Are there any other options I should consider?

There are lots of other benzos.  Ativan, I’ve found, is much more effective than Klonipin.  Sublingual Ativan is great.  Some people swear by Xanax, which is pretty strong stuff.  With the benzos, though, there’s the potential of getting addicted. Also, there’s a non-benzodiazepine anxiolytic called Buspar.  I took it for a couple of years.  I noticed significant anxiolytic effect for a while, but it wore off.  This is a much more benign drug than the benzos and has no addictive potential.  There’s some evidence that long-term use of Buspar can cause depression, which is why I stopped taking it. There’s also a blood-pressure medication called Enderol which can be very effective in panic for an unusual reason: it stops the physical symptoms. There seems to be a feedback loop involved where the physical symptoms make one even more anxious. It should be noted that I have tried NLP with no luck (actually it was effective for about 30 mins and then I was back to normal),

One thing I’ve found useful was to work myself up (I usually use hypnosis, because it seems to last for a couple of hours, but NLP should be fine) and then go do a challenge.  Once I did the challenge and reverted to normal, I’d celebrate and reward myself. — Eric Pepke Supercomputer Computations Research Institute Florida State University

Response:

Newsgroups: alt.support.anxiety-panic,sci.med.psychobiology,alt.support.depression,alt. support.social-phobia,alt.support.shyness,alt.psychology.nlp,sci.psychology .psychotherapy Followup-To: alt.support.anxiety-panic,sci.med.psychobiology,alt.support.depression,alt. support.social-phobia,alt.support.shyness,alt.psychology.nlp,sci.psychology .psychotherapy Organization: Netcom On-Line Services Distribution: hi Glen,

: Hi All, :   :   Some time ago I was diagnosed as having anxiety, panic attacks and social : phobias. Over the past year or so I have been on Clonazepam (1 tablet, : twice a day) with some results but I don’t feel I’m cured. As a result, I have : been looking into other options, one which has been recommended to me is : Sertraline (Zoloft?). As a result, I am going off the Clonazepam (I’m down to : half a tablet, once a day) and I am experiencing quite a bit of anxiety/panic, : as much as if not more than I originally started with. I have a couple : questions regarding the above: Your anti-anxiety med is working by increasing the sensitivity to some receptors in your brain that bind with GABA.  GABA is an inhibitory neurotransmitter, meaning its use is to inhibit the "firing" of neurons – neurons that have GABA receptors, that is.  Thus it is generally thought of as a "quieting" or "calming" neurotransmitter.  And benzodiazapines enhance those receptors, thereby augmenting the effects of that calming neurotransmitter. Zoloft, on the other hand, is a selective seretonin reuptake inhibitor (as you probably know) and it works by increasing the time that the neurotransmitter seretonin is active in the synapse, and thereby increasing the time that the post-synaptic neuron can be triggered by seretonin.  Seretonin is generally thought to be connected somehow with depression and happiness, and there are studies that show that very aggressive people have lower seretonin activity.  Animal studies show that increases in seretonin are found in the dominant male, and correspondingly that the dominance hierarchy can be changed by increasing the seretonin in an otherwise non-dominant male.  Seretonin increase is also associated with a decrease in REM sleep.  I personally would like more info on this particular feature; it’s my feeling that a decrease in REM will be harmful in the long run, but I also think that anti-depressants do not increase seretonin enough to cause a harmful decrease in REM.  I am not sure, and I’ve not done any literature search but a professor in psychobiology said that she thinks no studies have been done on REM sleep and how it’s affected in people taking an anti-depressant at the usual doses. So, ssri anti-depressants (as well as some tricyclics) are used for panic disorders, especially in children, since traditional anti-anxiety medications are not usually the first choice for kids, due to their psychological withdrawl symptoms (as you are experiencing now.)  I can give you two anecdotes, one about me and one about my daughter.  I had depression with anxiety, and had one panic attack.  I was not given Prozac but was given Zoloft instead, because it’s been said, based on anecdotal evidence, that Prozac can have an anxiety-increasing action in people already prone to anxiety.  I was fine on Zoloft; calm, not depressed, not anxious.  My daughter has panic disorder and post traumatic stress disorder; she’s done wonderfully on both a tricyclic and also on Paxil, another ssri like Prozac and Zoloft which is considered somewhat more calming than Prozac.  However, lately I’m debating whether or not this is the correct medication for her since she has become somewhat manic and is still experiencing anxiety.  She is not acting out as much and is not having any actual panic attacks, but she says she still "feels" anxious and that her "brain" still "talks too much about scary things."   Some people take an anti-depressant and an anti-anxiety at the same time; one suggestion is to add BuSpar for my daughter to hopefully help the anxiety.  BuSpar is in a class of medicines all by itself; it has anti-anxiety properties but it does not work like benzodiazapines.  In fact its exact method is unknown at present time, but that’s not unusual for a relatively new drug. : 1 – Is this return of anxiety normal? Unfortunately, yes.  I hope you are being taken off very slowly? : 2 – Any chance that it’s just temporary? Yes, sure.  As your body adjusts to not having the medicine anymore, you might return to a lower level of anxiety than prior to the start of the medication.  I’ve read that getting off those kinds of meds can be very, very bad and hard.   : 3 – How successful is this Sertralinbe? Ssri’s are considered very effective medicines for depression, and there are some docs that will use them for anything and will report success.  I think there’s no harm at all in giving it a try, to see how it works for you.  Keep in mind that ssri’s can take a very long time to have noticable effects.  I *think* it’s been reported to take, sometimes, a month or even two.  My daughter shaped right up on the 3rd day, but she might have been experiencing some placebo effect. : 4 – Any known long term side effects of Sertraline? The ssri’s are very safe.  They have some side effects that are just nuisances, but that are not dangerous.  As for taking a medication that increases the seretonin in your brain, there are some questions about that.  These questions apply to any anti-depressant, not just to Zoloft.   Your neurons that release seretonin also have receptors that can bind with seretonin; these autoreceptors are believed to function like a feedback loop, giving the neuron information on how much seretonin is needed based on how much it "sees" floating in the synapse.  It’s thought that the autoreceptor would sense the increased seretonin and thereby inform the neuron not to make any more, or at least not to make as much or not to make as much right now.  So basically, it’s not really known whether these anti-depressants are actually increasing seretonin overall or decreasing it.  You need to remember that the medicines only work to increase the time that the seretonin is active in the synapse; they don’t actually increase seretonin production.  So if your neurons aren’t making any, the medicine won’t be increasing the activity. : 5 – Is Sertraline addictive or can it cause dependancy? Well, lots of people have to increase their dose.  It can become ineffective after a while, probably due to what’s described in the above paragraph.  I wish there were studies that showed us how long this takes in the average person…   : 6 – Are there any other options I should consider? Well.  There’s BuSpar, although it’s been said to be less effective on people who’ve already been on another anti-anxiety med.  There’s also beta blockers.  Beta blockers work to block the action of some neurotransmitters, namely norepinephren, seretonin and dopamine.  Those are all "excitatory" neurotransmitters, so beta blockers block that excitment that they would cause.  I haven’t heard of beta blockers being prescribed for chronic anxiety all that much, although they are listed as an option in a few books I have for people who are not getting much relief from other methods.  They can be taken on an as-needed basis; that’s a big benefit if you have certain situations that really make you anxious.  Like, maybe before you need to do anything socially, you could pop a beta blocker?  *smile*  However, it sounds like you need something that works continuously, and I don’t know enough about beta blockers to know if they are ever prescribed in such a manner. You could also try a tricyclic anti-depressant.  Those are older and they work very well, for the most part.  Usually nowadays they are tried after an ssri fails, instead of before an ssri.  They do have slightly worse potential side effects though; they can have cardiac involvement and regular ECG’s are recommended to monitor your heart.  In my daughter’s case, the tricyclic imipramine completely cured her of all her anxiety/ptsd symptoms (I mean, it was like a miracle) but they aggravated a previously minor and insignificant heart problem she had and in fact made the heart problem quite troublesome for a while.  Quitting the medicine did reverse the problem, but I don’t know if all potential cardiac effects are reversable.  ??? : It should be noted that I have tried NLP with no luck (actually it was : effective for about 30 mins and then I was back to normal), group therapy has : not worked thus far (probably because I can’t get into the habit of following : the excercises and doing the homework) although another group has been offered : to me by the Clarke Institute of Psychiatry, and if I can avoid drugs I would : prefer to. That’s a noble standpoint, I think.  Have you tried any desensitization therapy?  I’ve heard that’s the latest thing with phobias and that some people are achieving great success.  The idea, I believe, is to expose yourself (with your therapist’s help and guidance) to increasingly longer involvement with your phobia.  I think it’s got some basis in cognitive work; if you can only re-train your brain to understand that these things that feel like they will kill you, really will not kill you, you supposedly can get some relief.  Maybe that type of work, with the help of a medication, would be possible for you?   One more consideration:  all the benzodiazapines have different characteristics and therefore slightly different experiences in an individual’s body, given the individual’s circumstances and whatnot.   Have you tried any other of the other medicines of this class? Well, just a … read more »

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Hi All,   Some time ago I was diagnosed as having anxiety, panic attacks and social phobias. Over the past year or so I have been on Clonazepam (1 tablet, twice a day) with some results but I don’t feel I’m cured. As a result, I have been looking into other options, one which has been recommended to me is Sertraline (Zoloft?). As a result, I am going off the Clonazepam (I’m down to half a tablet, once a day) and I am experiencing quite a bit of anxiety/panic, as much as if not more than I originally started with. I have a couple questions regarding the above: 1 – Is this return of anxiety normal? 2 – Any chance that it’s just temporary? 3 – How successful is this Sertralinbe? 4 – Any known long term side effects of Sertraline? 5 – Is Sertraline addictive or can it cause dependancy? 6 – Are there any other options I should consider? It should be noted that I have tried NLP with no luck (actually it was effective for about 30 mins and then I was back to normal), group therapy has not worked thus far (probably because I can’t get into the habit of following the excercises and doing the homework) although another group has been offered to me by the Clarke Institute of Psychiatry, and if I can avoid drugs I would prefer to. your time.

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        I just want to start of by saying that I agree wholeheartedly with the person who stated that drug therapy is a crutch.           The notion that brings up for me is that crutches are for crippled people.  And therefore the appropriateness of said crutch would depend mightily on the view the individual took of themselves, whether they saw themselves as broken or not.         I don’t pass judgement on anyone’s self view – I simply do not, personally, see any people as broken.  Those of you who do think you are broken – this post is not for you. For the rest of you, here is a brief story about what works:         Friend of mine had multiple phobias.  Basically, she was raped many years ago, and had panic attacks following the rapes, and the panic got generalized to lots of various things – and all those things ended up acting as anchors – triggering phobic attacks.  Pretty messy stuff.         She tried therapy a few times, but got rather annoyed at the therapists’s insistence on going back to her childhood.  I mean, she knew where the phobias came from, knew why she had them, she just couldn’t get rid of them.         Over time, because she’s a rather strong-willed and stubborn personality, she had gotten rid of a lot of them through a process of gradual desenstiziation that she worked with herself.  Still a lot remained.         So after about two years of me studying NLP and hypnosis, she asked me to work with her on them.  And we did – spent about 1 1/2 hours.         It was fun actually, rather interesting the stuff I learned about how her brain works.  We’d been very close friends for six years, but I hadn’t known what an interesting place her brain is.         She enjoyed it too – said it was completely different than any form of therapy she’d ever heard of, where the therapist’s seem rather determined to make you feel bad stuff from the past again.  She learned a lot about how her brain worked also – and since it’s a highly creative brain, the whole thing was just delightfully entertaining for both of us.         And the phobias… ummm, what phobias?   Oh yeah, there was something about massive phobic reactions being triggered by multiple anchors – I’d almost forgotten.  Well, that’s in the past.  Period.         THAT is what NLP does, when it’s done well, and elegantly, by a highly-skilled and exquisite practicioner.           Or at least, that’s been my experience.  And hers.

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I don’t know if anyone has addressed this yet, but I’ve had success with some of my supervised clientelle using a combination of in vivo desensitization to situational fear hierarchies and limited social skills training.  Of the five clients I have seen with this condition or a combination thereof (i.e., avoidant personality disorder, agoraphobia, etc.), only one was receiving psychopharmicotherapy in conjunction with treatment. David Barlow has an excellent treatment manual that may be useful (Managing Anxiety and Panic), and Zimbardo (1977) has a treatment mileau for the social skills training that I’ve found useful.  I should add that the social skills training is best conducted in a group format. Jeff Browndyke Jeffrey N. Browndyke Ph.D. Student in Medical/Clinical Psychology                     Department of Psychology        Fax: (504) 388-4125 236 Audubon Hall                URL: http://www.premier.net/~cogito   Baton Rouge, LA. 70803           *Neuropsychology Central  -  http://www.premier.net/~cogito/neuropsy.html *Psycresearch-Online – http://www.premier.net/~cogito/psycresearch-online/main.html  

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Some of you might want to check out the new website for individual herbal programs. It is designed for those who would rather go a natural route for their disorders and ailments. http://members.aol.com/doherbs/index.htm

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It should be noted that I have tried NLP with no luck (actually it was effective for about 30 mins and then I was back to normal), Just a thought if you are willing to listen. The first time you rode a bike did you succeed 100%??  Or did you try and then have to make another attempt before you rode successfully?? Maybe even several or dozens on attempts!!  Did all go to plan the very first or did you have to see what went right, what went wrong, assess, re-adjust and then take the good bits and try something slightly new to see it that worked better. My point is this.  Discover what is was about NLP that made it work for 30 minutes.  Take that knowledge and work on it….get some new info and try it to see if it works.  Keep building on that.  I’m sure, as much as you also know in yourself, that you will be riding that NLP bike fluently very soon and be over your anxiety.  If it worked to 30 minutes there is NOTHING stopping it working for 1 hour, or maybe 1 day, or maybe even a year.  Hey…here is an idea….why not the rest of your life.  Now isn’t that a possibility or moreso a reality. I would first like to point out that social phobia and agoraphobia are not like the usual ("specific") phobia, which is a strong fear response to a specific stimulus.  (For that matter, neither is fear of flying.)   The NLP phobia cure may not be completely successful with social phobia, if at all.   My personal opinion is that a very good NLP practitioner would probably be successful in curing social phobia, although it might take several sessions.  However, it’s important to realize that this is not a matter of using some standard technique such as the phobia cure, so the skill and experience of the practitioner will probably be very crucial. Secondly, I have to say that, unlike for the case of specific phobias, my opinion is not backed by personal experience in dealing with social phobias or reports from other practitioners of successful experience. It’s simply based on the fact that I know that NLP is very good for a lot of other problems, so it ought to be good for this too. For this reason, although I would encourage the poster to remain open to the possibility that some day he may find someone who can use NLP to help him, I am reluctant to give him advice that may result in his going to practitioner after practitioner, spending lots of time and emotional energy without finding one who is competent to give him real help.   — Only by riveting one’s attention on the past is it possible to prevent those occasional changes of perspective that would reveal that the present offers not only the potential for more unhappiness, but also of un-unhappiness, not to mention something entirely new.  –Paul Watzlawick

That is very interesting….thankyou.  I agree that NLP is not the do all and end all.  As NLP teaches you within itself…..variety and flexibility to new ideas and opinion are a healthy and productive way of living.  Gathering the best information and ideas from all around the world on any topic and study or even just the ear of a friendly person is a new approach that should always be considered.   With a smile, Dean Crabb         "The meeting of Preparation with Oppurtunity generates                      the offspring we call LUCK"

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In our society there is that immediate urge to take a pill and make everything better and, unfortunately, many people are quite disappointed when that doesn’t happen. On the other hand, there are also those who refuse any medication believing it to be nonsense. I used to be very anti-medication. That is, I wanted to be cured of anxiety and depression without any medication at all. Looking back, I see this was a misinformed and stupid attitude. The fact is that the right medication prescribed correctly can be invaluable in getting better. Certainly, one should not rely wholly on medication. Rather it should be a crutch. Jan

        I agree completely with your post. I am using meds (Klonopin & Zoloft, with occasional use of Xanax when immediate relief is necessary) and I also am working with a psychotherapist in individual and group therapy sessions. I think a balanced approach of meds and therapy is good, for me at least.         I was just commenting on the completely med oriented threads and the relative lack of attention to other therapies. I would like to hear more about NLP as I don’t know much about it. There is also EMDR which seems to work for some but is used mostly for PTSD.         I think anyone who has suffered for a significant length of time with panic/phobia, etc., has developed a variety of defence/coping mechanisms which do not disappear when symptoms are reduced with meds. People with SP, myself included, seem to have a difficult time picking up on social cues, with anxiety resulting from a feeling of not quite knowing what is going on. The tendency of SPs to "fill in the blanks" can result in some rather irrational thinking. G.M.

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I used to be very anti-medication. That is, I wanted to be cured of anxiety and depression without any medication at all. Looking back, I see this was a misinformed and stupid attitude. The fact is that the right medication prescribed correctly can be invaluable in getting better. Certainly, one should not rely wholly on medication. Rather it should be a crutch.

I completely agree with you, Jan. For the first year or so of this group’s existence I was scared *stiff* of using benzodiazepines and, as a consequence, was floundering with no treatment at all – neither antidepressants nor psychological treatments having helped me. I was even quite vocal in my concerns about some medications. Eventually, reading what people had to say here changed my mind and I started using Xanax prn. Since then, the change in my life has been little short of miraculous. As you say, meds. are only there to help but, without that help, no behavioural therapy in the world was having any effect at all. Now it is possible to use other therapies because the meds. have given them room to operate. — Gary Cooper

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In our society there is that immediate urge to take a pill and make everything better and, unfortunately, many people are quite disappointed when that doesn’t happen. On the other hand, there are also those who refuse any medication believing it to be nonsense. I used to be very anti-medication. That is, I wanted to be cured of anxiety and depression without any medication at all. Looking back, I see this was a misinformed and stupid attitude. The fact is that the right medication prescribed correctly can be invaluable in getting better. Certainly, one should not rely wholly on medication. Rather it should be a crutch. Jan

Hi Jan, I couldn’t agree with you more… I was anti-medication, big time!!  I spent months on this ng discussing the pros and cons of using meds to help me with my Panic Disorder.  All the time that I was discussing it, I was house bound, unable to do anything out side of my home, and having 4-5 panic attacks a day. I finally found a doctor that specializes in Panic Disorder who prescribed meds for me.  At first I resisted, and wanted to be "cured" without using "drugs."  What a lonely place it is to be so right that I wouldn’t even listen to an expert in the field of PD. I finally, after a few more months, ended up taking Paxil and Klonopin (Clonazepam); I feel like my old self again.  I’m out of the house, going to job interviews, hey, I even go to Wal-Mart  some times (shiver)!!   Taking medications have given me my life back.  I’m still waiting to hear from a therapist (behavioral therapy, I hope), waiting lists are very long in the public and private sector here in Maine.  But once I’ve got a therapist that knows what he/she is doing, and couple that with my meds, and I feel I’ve got half the battle won–the rest is up to me. — Chuck

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In our society there is that immediate urge to take a pill and make everything better and, unfortunately, many people are quite disappointed when that doesn’t happen.

On the other hand, there are also those who refuse any medication believing it to be nonsense. I used to be very anti-medication. That is, I wanted to be cured of anxiety and depression without any medication at all. Looking back, I see this was a misinformed and stupid attitude. The fact is that the right medication prescribed correctly can be invaluable in getting better. Certainly, one should not rely wholly on medication. Rather it should be a crutch. Jan

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It should be noted that I have tried NLP with no luck (actually it was effective for about 30 mins and then I was back to normal), Just a thought if you are willing to listen. The first time you rode a bike did you succeed 100%??  Or did you try and then have to make another attempt before you rode successfully?? Maybe even several or dozens on attempts!!  Did all go to plan the very first or did you have to see what went right, what went wrong, assess, re-adjust and then take the good bits and try something slightly new to see it that worked better. My point is this.  Discover what is was about NLP that made it work for 30 minutes.  Take that knowledge and work on it….get some new info and try it to see if it works.  Keep building on that.  I’m sure, as much as you also know in yourself, that you will be riding that NLP bike fluently very soon and be over your anxiety.  If it worked to 30 minutes there is NOTHING stopping it working for 1 hour, or maybe 1 day, or maybe even a year.  Hey…here is an idea….why not the rest of your life.  Now isn’t that a possibility or moreso a reality.

I would first like to point out that social phobia and agoraphobia are not like the usual ("specific") phobia, which is a strong fear response to a specific stimulus.  (For that matter, neither is fear of flying.)   The NLP phobia cure may not be completely successful with social phobia, if at all.   My personal opinion is that a very good NLP practitioner would probably be successful in curing social phobia, although it might take several sessions.  However, it’s important to realize that this is not a matter of using some standard technique such as the phobia cure, so the skill and experience of the practitioner will probably be very crucial. Secondly, I have to say that, unlike for the case of specific phobias, my opinion is not backed by personal experience in dealing with social phobias or reports from other practitioners of successful experience. It’s simply based on the fact that I know that NLP is very good for a lot of other problems, so it ought to be good for this too. For this reason, although I would encourage the poster to remain open to the possibility that some day he may find someone who can use NLP to help him, I am reluctant to give him advice that may result in his going to practitioner after practitioner, spending lots of time and emotional energy without finding one who is competent to give him real help.   — Only by riveting one’s attention on the past is it possible to prevent those occasional changes of perspective that would reveal that the present offers not only the potential for more unhappiness, but also of un-unhappiness, not to mention something entirely new.  –Paul Watzlawick

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It should be noted that I have tried NLP with no luck (actually it was effective for about 30 mins and then I was back to normal),

Just a thought if you are willing to listen. The first time you rode a bike did you succeed 100%??  Or did you try and then have to make another attempt before you rode successfully?? Maybe even several or dozens on attempts!!  Did all go to plan the very first or did you have to see what went right, what went wrong, assess, re-adjust and then take the good bits and try something slightly new to see it that worked better. My point is this.  Discover what is was about NLP that made it work for 30 minutes.  Take that knowledge and work on it….get some new info and try it to see if it works.  Keep building on that.  I’m sure, as much as you also know in yourself, that you will be riding that NLP bike fluently very soon and be over your anxiety.  If it worked to 30 minutes there is NOTHING stopping it working for 1 hour, or maybe 1 day, or maybe even a year.  Hey…here is an idea….why not the rest of your life.  Now isn’t that a possibility or moreso a reality. Tell me please…..do you have to even think about riding a bike now or does it just come naturally?? All the best….the journey down this road will be easier than you think.  Just get on that bike and start riding one hour at a time. The hours will become days, and the days will become weeks and the weeks will flow smoothly into years.  Start enjoying your new found happiness….now…. Warmest Regards, Dean Crabb           "The meeting of Preparation with Oppurtunity generates                      the offspring we call LUCK"

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Glen: What NLP techniques did you use? Nick – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi All,   Some time ago I was diagnosed as having anxiety, panic attacks and social phobias. Over the past year or so I have been on Clonazepam (1 tablet, twice a day) with some results but I don’t feel I’m cured. As a result, I have been looking into other options, one which has been recommended to me is Sertraline (Zoloft?). As a result, I am going off the Clonazepam (I’m down to half a tablet, once a day) and I am experiencing quite a bit of anxiety/panic, as much as if not more than I originally started with. I have a couple questions regarding the above: 1 – Is this return of anxiety normal? 2 – Any chance that it’s just temporary? 3 – How successful is this Sertralinbe? 4 – Any known long term side effects of Sertraline? 5 – Is Sertraline addictive or can it cause dependancy? 6 – Are there any other options I should consider? It should be noted that I have tried NLP with no luck (actually it was effective for about 30 mins and then I was back to normal), group therapy has not worked thus far (probably because I can’t get into the habit of following the excercises and doing the homework) although another group has been offered to me by the Clarke Institute of Psychiatry, and if I can avoid drugs I would prefer to. you for your time.

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It should be noted that I have tried NLP with no luck (actually it was effective for about 30 mins and then I was back to normal), Well, that’s a start, isn’t it? Just because this particular bit of NLP wasn’t permanent doesn’t mean that other attempts won’t be…

what’s nlp?

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It should be noted that I have tried NLP with no luck (actually it was effective for about 30 mins and then I was back to normal),

Well, that’s a start, isn’t it? Just because this particular bit of NLP wasn’t permanent doesn’t mean that other attempts won’t be…

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, just a disclaimer, I am certainly not a doctor nor a therapist; I’m just a 3rd year biological psychology major who’s also done a lot of reading, especially due to my daughter’s condition.  Please please please take everything I say with a healthy dose of skepticism and use it just as a jumping-off place for you to do your own research and/or to ask questions of your doc.  And for a sort of opposite-of-disclaimer, try to make sure your doc knows what she’s/he’s talking about.  I’ve found that the psychiatrists I’ve seen for myself or my daughter have all had somewhat deficient (in my opinion) knowledge about the latest research, including a lack of knowledge even of what’s being reported in the popular media.  Take care of yourself. Cindi

no need for a disclaimer, thank you for the informative post. Don’t forget the "talk therapy" angle on panic/phobia, etc. behavior. You mentioned desensitization, which works for a lot of people, but there are quite a range of psychotherapeutic approaches to the subject. In our society there is that immediate urge to take a pill and make everything better and, unfortunately, many people are quite disappointed when that doesn’t happen.         Again, thank you for the very informative post. G.M.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi All,   Some time ago I was diagnosed as having anxiety, panic attacks and social phobias. Over the past year or so I have been on Clonazepam (1 tablet, twice a day) with some results but I don’t feel I’m cured. As a result, I have been looking into other options, one which has been recommended to me is Sertraline (Zoloft?). As a result, I am going off the Clonazepam (I’m down to half a tablet, once a day) and I am experiencing quite a bit of anxiety/panic, as much as if not more than I originally started with. I have a couple questions regarding the above: 1 – Is this return of anxiety normal? 2 – Any chance that it’s just temporary? 3 – How successful is this Sertralinbe? 4 – Any known long term side effects of Sertraline? 5 – Is Sertraline addictive or can it cause dependancy? 6 – Are there any other options I should consider? It should be noted that I have tried NLP with no luck (actually it was effective for about 30 mins and then I was back to normal), group therapy has not worked thus far (probably because I can’t get into the habit of following the excercises and doing the homework) although another group has been offered to me by the Clarke Institute of Psychiatry, and if I can avoid drugs I would prefer to. your time.

I’ll try and answer your questions, as I take both Zoloft and Klonopin (clonazepam). you say you take 1 tablet twice a day but you don’t say what the strength of the tablet is. I take 0.5 mg. three times a day and 200 mg. Zoloft once a day. First let me say that your statement " I have been on clonazepam…with some results…but I don’t feel I’m cured" is odd. Was it promoted to you as a "cure"? I don’t know that there is any cure for social phobia, just medication and cognitive techniques for lessening the symptoms and learning to live with it. 1. yes, the return to an anxious state when reducing an anti-anxiety med is normal. BTW, go off clonazepam *slooowly*. There can be dangerous side-effects when terminating any benzodiazepine quickly. 2.temporary? if you really are socially phobic….not likely. 3. Zoloft? it has been a life-saver (literally) for me in the area of depression, which is what it is generally prescribed for. Some people say that Zoloft also has anti-anxiety properties. I have not found that to be so, though I imagine, some people have. It is quite common to be on an anti-depressant and an anti-anxiety med at the same time. I find that Zoloft increases my anxiety, though not as much as Prozac did. 4. side effects of Zoloft. You can check the PDR for the entire list. The only two I have noticed is lethargy (which has lessened over time) and a longer period of stimulation required to reach orgasm ( which also has lessened over time) Zoloft is a pretty benign drug (as drugs go…they all have side-effects and not everyone has the same ) 5. dependance? No. Not in the least. It is the benzodiazepines (Klonopin, though especially Xanax and Ativan) that are quite addictive. 6. Yes. Find a good Psychiatrist and trust him/her and follow the advice. Also, educate yourself about your condition. Take risks. (like group therapy) Be so interested in your condition that you know more about it than your M.D., be your own therapist, leave no stone unturned…..after all, it’s our lives we’re talking about here, and as far as I know, you only get one. Hope this helps G.M.

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Hi All,   Some time ago I was diagnosed as having anxiety, panic attacks and social phobias. Over the past year or so I have been on Clonazepam (1 tablet, twice a day) with some results but I don’t feel I’m cured. As a result, I have been looking into other options, one which has been recommended to me is Sertraline (Zoloft?). As a result, I am going off the Clonazepam (I’m down to half a tablet, once a day) and I am experiencing quite a bit of anxiety/panic, as much as if not more than I originally started with. I have a couple questions regarding the above: 1 – Is this return of anxiety normal?

It happens quite frequently in the folks I’ve worked with who are in your position. 2 – Any chance that it’s just temporary?

There’s a chance.  My sense is that they work by different mechanisms and that zoloft takes longer to kick in.  Could be that you will continue to experience some anxiety by the quality of the anxiety will be different. 3 – How successful is this Sertralinbe?

I’m not familliar with research using zoloft for these anxiety disorders (not to say there’s none there–just that I haven’t seen it).  I’ve seen it work for OCD which has anxiety as its base…. 4 – Any known long term side effects of Sertraline?

Some people claim that the serotonin receptors become either destroyed or desensitized to 5-HT and thus reducing the efficacy of the meds.  I don’t know if the sexual "problems" associated with prozac are also associated with the other SSRIs. 5 – Is Sertraline addictive or can it cause dependancy?

Probably not in the same way that a benzodiazapine is addictive. 6 – Are there any other options I should consider?

Have you read anything by David Barlow.  His book "Anxiety and its disorders" is a good starting point.  I have had very good luck using traditional behavioral techniques with an emphasis on exposure. Good Luck Mark – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It should be noted that I have tried NLP with no luck (actually it was effective for about 30 mins and then I was back to normal), group therapy has not worked thus far (probably because I can’t get into the habit of following the excercises and doing the homework) although another group has been offered to me by the Clarke Institute of Psychiatry, and if I can avoid drugs I would prefer to. your time.

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