Question:

If I have to take Theo-dur too late at night it keeps me awake.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was wondering if anyone has insomnia from their asthma medications.  I’m taking Flovent 2x a day 2 puffs. AJ

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I was wondering if anyone has insomnia from their asthma medications.  I’m taking Flovent 2x a day 2 puffs. AJ

Response:

I have experienced insomnia and I am on the same amount of Flovent. The doctor says that it would not cause it but I don’t know. I just wanted to let you know that you are not alone. *smile* Shannon

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was wondering if anyone has insomnia from their asthma medications.  I’m taking Flovent 2x a day 2 puffs. AJ

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Hello! Absolutely…I’ve not enjoyed more than 4 hours (undisturbed) sleep since I began taking Flovent and Serevent last year. Patrice – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was wondering if anyone has insomnia from their asthma medications.  I’m taking Flovent 2x a day 2 puffs. AJ

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Is Flovent a newer inhaled steroid?  Is it better than Flunisolide (brand name of Aerobid in US)?  Is it more effective than Aerobid?  I didn’t think inhaled steroids were that notorious for causing sleep problems, but I could be wrong. Is Serevent a Beta Antagonist (sp?)?  That could be very well be your problem.  Albuterol (Salbuterol), a Beta Antagonist, Theophylline, and the older family of bronchodilators (Metaproterenol Sulfate being one) are notorious for causing sleep problems. By the way, I’m curious to find out if anybody is still using Metaproterenol Sulfate (Metaprel) and/or Isoproterenol(Isoprel) as one their main medicines to control their asthma anymore and if so why?   I remember having really bad side effects from Metaprel, but that was once one of the main stay asthma medicines 20 years ago. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello! Absolutely…I’ve not enjoyed more than 4 hours (undisturbed) sleep since I began taking Flovent and Serevent last year. Patrice

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Does anyone have any ideas on trying to get some sleep when you can’t.  I’ve tried everything I can think of.  I don’t know if it’s my meds or what.  I just need sleep.  I’m too hyper to sleep, too sleepy to do a lot of things (hyper-running around house and playing w/ daughter , etc. I will do to some extent when supposed to be asleep).  I’ve ran out of ideas (literally).  please help.  I’m going on 2 hours sleep for the past 2 days combined and I have still 1 more 12 hour night shift left before I am off and need some sleep.

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what are you taking? jen * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

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Seroquel balances my sleep/wake schedule, otherwise I decline to a near annihilating dose of barbituates. Gabriel * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

I’ve been taking trazodone at bedtime for a few months, and it’s great. Fall right to sleep and stay that way all night. If you’re taking stimulating ADs like Wellbutrin, don’t take them near bedtime.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Does anyone have any ideas on trying to get some sleep when you can’t.  I’ve tried everything I can think of.  I don’t know if it’s my meds or what.  I just need sleep.  I’m too hyper to sleep, too sleepy to do a lot of things (hyper-running around house and playing w/ daughter , etc. I will do to some extent when supposed to be asleep).  I’ve ran out of ideas (literally).  please help.  I’m going on 2 hours sleep for the past 2 days combined and I have still 1 more 12 hour night shift left before I am off and need some sleep.

Response:

Put a fan or something in your room that makes a noise loud enough to drown out small noises. Focus your attention on your breathing…until it becomes regular…as you do let your awareness go to different parts of your body. Any where you find tension…try to relax the muscles in that area, continue to go around your body until you’ve completely relaxed it…and your breathing is deep and regular. If your mind is not still and that is keeping you awake,..try repeating a phrase. The one I use is "I will develope and use my positive potentials thus becomeing a fully actualized and intergrated self." This should work, ..antother thing that works for me is to pretend it’s 100 years in the future and that I’m dead…nothing matters…no thoughts…no tension….just eternity….sometimes that works…even in very tense situations. It’s like surrender. Drink some milk before bed, or take trytophan. Go to bed the same time each night. Don’t drink before bed. Don’t do anything physical for a few hours before bed. That being said, If your getting that little sleep, you might want to get some meds for it. Antihistimines that don’t have a decongestant can help if you don’t have anything else. Try ASH Alternatives to Suicide Homepage http://members.home.net/askash/index.html – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Does anyone have any ideas on trying to get some sleep when you can’t.  I’ve tried everything I can think of.  I don’t know if it’s my meds or what.  I just need sleep.  I’m too hyper to sleep, too sleepy to do a lot of things (hyper-running around house and playing w/ daughter , etc. I will do to some extent when supposed to be asleep).  I’ve ran out of ideas (literally).  please help.  I’m going on 2 hours sleep for the past 2 days combined and I have still 1 more 12 hour night shift left before I am off and need some sleep.

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I am currently taking 40 mg of Prozac (20/20 am/pm), 100 mg Luvox (between 5 & 10 pm), and 1 mg of Lorazapan (Ativan) every 4 – 8 hrs.  I have even tried taking my lorazapan, but I go into a light (very light) sleep, more of a rest than anything.  I sleep with a fan on.  I also sleep during the day and work all night. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – what are you taking? jen * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

go to bed with a good book and TRY to stay awake. a lot of us are what a pdoc of mine called contra-suggestible aka bloody-minded. Isabel

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Does anyone have any ideas on trying to get some sleep when you can’t.  I’ve tried everything I can think of.  I don’t know if it’s my meds or what.  I just need sleep.  I’m too hyper to sleep, too sleepy to do a lot of things (hyper-running around house and playing w/ daughter , etc. I will do to some extent when supposed to be asleep).  I’ve ran out of ideas (literally).  please help.  I’m going on 2 hours sleep for the past 2 days combined and I have still 1 more 12 hour night shift left before I am off and need some sleep.

Response:

Talk to your doctor about dropping the Prozac and starting on a mood stabilizer. Antidepressants are notorious for triggering mania in a bipolar person. Insomnia as you describe is a classic sign of mania. Also ask about Klonopin – it is a good med to take for bipolar insomnia. Before I was dx’ed I tried all the usual home remedies (warm milk, meditation, OTC sleeping pills) to no effect. My GP put me on Ambien (a prescrip sleeping med) but even at doses high enough to knock out a horse, I still couldn’t sleep. That’s what tipped him off that I might be bipolar. At one point in my treatment I was on nothing but Prozac (had dropped lithium in state of denial/rebellion), and it flipped me into the worst insomnia ever – went 9 days without a wink of sleep at one point. You need your sleep – please seek medical attention. jen * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

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I was wondering how many people have noted vision changes as a result of chronic seroquel use.   I was also wondering if seroquel increased the level of your creativity or your sense of being in touch with the afterlife or "grand scheme" of things in whatever sense you consider those things. Thumper – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Put a fan or something in your room that makes a noise loud enough to drown out small noises. Focus your attention on your breathing…until it becomes regular…as you do let your awareness go to different parts of your body. Any where you find tension…try to relax the muscles in that area, continue to go around your body until you’ve completely relaxed it…and your breathing is deep and regular. If your mind is not still and that is keeping you awake,..try repeating a phrase. The one I use is "I will develope and use my positive potentials thus becomeing a fully actualized and intergrated self." This should work, ..antother thing that works for me is to pretend it’s 100 years in the future and that I’m dead…nothing matters…no thoughts…no tension….just eternity….sometimes that works…even in very tense situations. It’s like surrender. Drink some milk before bed, or take trytophan. Go to bed the same time each night. Don’t drink before bed. Don’t do anything physical for a few hours before bed. That being said, If your getting that little sleep, you might want to get some meds for it. Antihistimines that don’t have a decongestant can help if you don’t have anything else. Try ASH Alternatives to Suicide Homepage http://members.home.net/askash/index.html Does anyone have any ideas on trying to get some sleep when you can’t.  I’ve tried everything I can think of.  I don’t know if it’s my meds or what.  I just need sleep.  I’m too hyper to sleep, too sleepy to do a lot of things (hyper-running around house and playing w/ daughter , etc. I will do to some extent when supposed to be asleep).  I’ve ran out of ideas (literally).  please help.  I’m going on 2 hours sleep for the past 2 days combined and I have still 1 more 12 hour night shift left before I am off and need some sleep.

Response:

Hi Tammy- You got some really good responses–so I’ll only add to them. Inositol–a b-vitamin will help–250 mg at bed time Instead of milk, try a carbohydrate.  Dry corn flakes was suggested–I tend to eat macaroons. LOL  it works! Calm’s Forte is available at GNC stores–and it is great–you can take it with any med–it is basically minerals. Isotonic minerals and calcium work wonders for me. Tryptohpan is a script.  So, try 5htp–its precursor and OTC.  But check any possible reactions with your meds.  You should not take 5htp or tryptophan if you are taking SSRIs. That should give you lots of things to try to see what works for you. Trazadone does not keep me asleep.  I take it at bedtime and when I wake up at around 4AM, I take another dose.   And finally, I’m ramping up on Neurontin–but so far it has definately helped me sleep better–but nothing esle yet–too low a dose. HTH, Nancy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Does anyone have any ideas on trying to get some sleep when you can’t.  I’ve tried everything I can think of.  I don’t know if it’s my meds or what.  I just need sleep.  I’m too hyper to sleep, too sleepy to do a lot of things (hyper-running around house and playing w/ daughter , etc. I will do to some extent when supposed to be asleep).  I’ve ran out of ideas (literally).  please help.  I’m going on 2 hours sleep for the past 2 days combined and I have still 1 more 12 hour night shift left before I am off and need some sleep.

Response:

Hi Tammy, Does anyone have any ideas on trying to get some sleep when you can’t.  I’ve tried everything I can think of.  I don’t know if it’s my meds or what.  I just need sleep.  I’m too hyper to sleep, too sleepy to do a lot of things (hyper-running around house and playing w/ daughter , etc. I will do to some extent when supposed to be asleep).  I’ve ran out of ideas (literally).  please help.  I’m going on 2 hours sleep for the past 2 days combined and I have still 1 more 12 hour night shift left before I am off and need some sleep.

What meds are you now taking? Is your doctor away of your lack of sleep? For me, the sleep disorder specialist prescribed Melatonin 3 mg daily.Also, nocaffeine has helped as well. I can empathazie with you as I only was getting 2-3 hours of sleep anight and then had to nap during the daytime. Peace, Lynda

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I was wondering how many people have noted vision changes as a result of chronic seroquel use.  

My doctor says that although the likelyhood is very low, there is a chance seroquel can cause cataracts. She wanted me to have my eyes checked after a month of being on a low dose of it and wrote me a referal to an eye doctor. I haven’t seen any changes in my vision, but if you’re experiencing any, I’d recommend a routine eye exam. Sincerely, Little Girl "Lead paint : Delicious, but deadly."

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Hi Thumper, What sort of vision changes? I don’t know anything about Seroquel, but I have had some weird vision problems coinciding with onset of bipolar symptoms. These are characterized mostly by double vision/blurring. It occurs on and off – i.e., fine for weeks then I’ll get a full week in which I just can’t seem to focus. It is bad enough that I will have trouble reading those big green signs of the freeway. I’ve also had halos and floaters, but not as often. All of this is in one eye only. Had my vision thoroughly checked out, nothing wrong there. Had a cursory neurological exam by my GP, nothing wrong there. Tried going off my lithium for awhile, but still had problems. Was finally told it must be related to my migraines – perhaps a prodomal type thing. But sometimes I’m not so sure…. I wonder if the blurred vision gets so bad, it gives me a headache? Oh well…. thought I’d jump in and whine a little. jen * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

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I have found that seroquel has made me more creative, or lucid; whereas other anti-psychotics tend to make me become zombee-like. As for ‘increased spirituality,’ . . . If this is a referance to myself, I wasn’t referring to the anti-psychotics as causing me to become more spiritual, and am not going to divulge my experience here so. . . Gabriel * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

Thank you to everyone who had written back or thought about it.  Received a lot of good feedback.  I did try a lot of them, including calling the Dr.  He has changed my meds around again.  I’m still taking everything, the only 2 exceptions are the I now take the Luvox in the morning before I go to bed and he cut my Prozac in 1/2 and take just 20 mg in the morning as well.  I immediately could see the difference in the fact I became more irritable, still insomniac to a point, still nauseated, and started back smoking again after quitting a couple of months ago.  I eat less now and am loding more weight.  I can handle everything but the irritability.  I am irritable at everyone around me without realizing it until later, then I feel guilty.  I try to not be irritable and apologize.  I don’t like this part of me and no one else does either and tell me.  I don’t like feeling like this at all.  Some times I hate myself because of it, even though I know it will be better.  My family asks me if I took my meds. when they begin to see me cycle through either being real irritable or real hyper.  They keep me in check some seeing my moods change, sometimes quickly.  I will call my doc Monday morning to tell him what is still going on.  I will be taking some copies of the suggestions with me at my next visit.  I’m sorry if I am writing on, I will try not to go this long next time, just had as lot on my mind. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Does anyone have any ideas on trying to get some sleep when you can’t.  I’ve tried everything I can think of.  I don’t know if it’s my meds or what.  I just need sleep.  I’m too hyper to sleep, too sleepy to do a lot of things (hyper-running around house and playing w/ daughter , etc. I will do to some extent when supposed to be asleep).  I’ve ran out of ideas (literally).  please help.  I’m going on 2 hours sleep for the past 2 days combined and I have still 1 more 12 hour night shift left before I am off and need some sleep.

Response:

Hi Tammy, – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thank you to everyone who had written back or thought about it.  Received a lot of good feedback.  I did try a lot of them, including calling the Dr.  He has changed my meds around again.  I’m still taking everything, the only 2 exceptions are the I now take the Luvox in the morning before I go to bed and he cut my Prozac in 1/2 and take just 20 mg in the morning as well.  I immediately could see the difference in the fact I became more irritable, still insomniac to a point, still nauseated, and started back smoking again after quitting a couple of months ago.  I eat less now and am loding more weight.  I can handle everything but the irritability.  I am irritable at everyone around me without realizing it until later, then I feel guilty.  I try to not be irritable and apologize.  I don’t like this part of me and no one else does either and tell me.  I don’t like feeling like this at all.  Some times I hate myself because of it, even though I know it will be better.  My family asks me if I took my meds. when they begin to see me cycle through either being real irritable or real hyper.  They keep me in check some seeing my moods change, sometimes quickly.  I will call my doc Monday morning to tell him what is still going on.  I will be taking some copies of the suggestions with me at my next visit.  I’m sorry if I am writing on, I will try not to go this long next time, just had as lot on my mind.

Are you taking a mood stabilizer Tammy? If not then the irritability could be dysphoria triggered by taking an AD without the coverage of a MS. If you are taking a MS then another look at the ADS may be in order as well as perhaps adding an adjunct MS to the med combo. I hope you feel better soon. Please keep us posted. Peace, Lynda

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Funny how you mentioned your family asking you if you have taken your meds. My wife has started the same regular line "have you taken you tablet today" since we both found out I was a manic depreccant sufferer. Interesting point you’ve made there. Opened my eyes. Darrell

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Tammy, Thank you to everyone who had written back or thought about it.  Received a lot of good feedback.  I did try a lot of them, including calling the Dr.  He has changed my meds around again.  I’m still taking everything, the only 2 exceptions are the I now take the Luvox in the morning before I go to bed and he cut my Prozac in 1/2 and take just 20 mg in the morning as well.  I immediately could see the difference in the fact I became more irritable, still insomniac to a point, still nauseated, and started back smoking again after quitting a couple of months ago.  I eat less now and am loding more weight.  I can handle everything but the irritability.  I am irritable at everyone around me without realizing it until later, then I feel guilty.  I try to not be irritable and apologize.  I don’t like this part of me and no one else does either and tell me.  I don’t like feeling like this at all.  Some times I hate myself because of it, even though I know it will be better.  My family asks me if I took my meds. when they begin to see me cycle through either being real irritable or real hyper.  They keep me in check some seeing my moods change, sometimes quickly.  I will call my doc Monday morning to tell him what is still going on.  I will be taking some copies of the suggestions with me at my next visit.  I’m sorry if I am writing on, I will try not to go this long next time, just had as lot on my mind. Are you taking a mood stabilizer Tammy? If not then the irritability could be dysphoria triggered by taking an AD without the coverage of a MS. If you are taking a MS then another look at the ADS may be in order as well as perhaps adding an adjunct MS to the med combo. I hope you feel better soon. Please keep us posted. Peace, Lynda

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi!  I’m looking for help from anyone out there who may have experienced symptoms similiar to mine. I have had a depression followed by a mild manic episode which has possibly caused 8 months of insomnia (ie early morning waking, and very light sleep). I have been told that I probably have manic depression but that the sleeping pattern I have  (ie extended insomnia) is unusual. I’m on trycyclic anti-depressants but they have been no help. Has anyone reading this had the same long-term sleeping problems? I would like to know what helped you! I’m using a friends e-mail at the moment, so , if you have any information for me would you be able to write to- Emma. C. Buninyong VIC  3357 Australia If you cannot rwrite you could reply by e-mail but please put EMMA as the subject. Thankyou! Emma, I haven’t been good and high in about 10 years, but in the past the most usual sign was insomnia, 3-5 days of it usually meant I was well on my way to a full blown episode. Lithium and wellbutrin (and time) have ended this pattern. -Doug    Hang in there, the sleep problems sound all to familiar.  I used klonopin at first but it is addictive, then Desyrl(sp?) which is a modern form of tricyclic that may have a serotonin effect as well and it helped tremendously….it will make some of us light headed and disoriented but it is a good sleep inducer.    I have found that sleep is the main area that changes regardless of whether i am high or low….it is tough.    i did try trcyclics at first and they helped.    we are all different i think, but there is a combination of meds that will kick in for you.    Ad you are not alone by a long shot, bpd, is simiply not publicized alot and when it is only he most extreme cases are mentioned.  those of us living a

‘normal’ Let’s start out setting the record straight.  Bipolar disorder, manic depression, uni-polor clinical depression on a good day or night for that fact, is a major pain in the ass!  The med merry-go-round gets so old; so very old.  I have started to feel like they’re I’m the brass ring everyone reaches for while reading the merry-go-rounds.  Sleep?  Who sleeps?  What is a normal sleep pattern?  Sometimes all I do is sleep 20 – 22 hours per day.  Others I sleep 2-3 hours and am wide awake for several days. I must add I am extremely cranky when going through this.  Will be glad to answer any other questions you may have. The Wild Woman (Claire)

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: Hi! :  I’m looking for help from anyone out there who may have experienced symptoms similiar : to mine. I have had a depression followed by a mild manic episode which has snip : I’m using a friends e-mail at the moment, so , if you have any : information for me would you be able to write to- : Emma. C. : Buninyong : VIC  3357 : Australia Emma, I am in Melbourne. I realise Buninyong isn’t very large but will "Emma C." be sufficient to find you at the P.O. there? I’ve got Bipolar disorder too, I’ve got a very good PsyDr at Royal Melbourne Hospital who my GP ("Dr Feelgood" from the radio show Pillowtalk – yep, shes a real GP!) referred me to. I’ll email an innocuous reply to your friend with subject line "emma" as instructed, look forward to hearing from you? — Graham. B’Doing!

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Sleep management has been number one in stabilizing my whole cycle. I targeted sleep as a major issue to get under control with meds. Ativan has consistently performed for me in this area. Some persons note a hangover with this med. I blooming well welcomed this, as reaching for a coffee in the morning had meaning again. It works for me in combination with Tegretol challenges as required

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi!  I’m looking for help from anyone out there who may have experienced symptoms similiar to mine. I have had a depression followed by a mild manic episode which has possibly caused 8 months of insomnia (ie early morning waking, and very light sleep). I have been told that I probably have manic depression but that the sleeping pattern I have  (ie extended insomnia) is unusual. I’m on trycyclic anti-depressants but they have been no help. Has anyone reading this had the same long-term sleeping problems? I would like to know what helped you! I’m using a friends e-mail at the moment, so , if you have any information for me would you be able to write to- Emma. C. Buninyong VIC  3357 Australia If you cannot rwrite you could reply by e-mail but please put EMMA as the subject. Thankyou! Emma, I haven’t been good and high in about 10 years, but in the past the most usual sign was insomnia, 3-5 days of it usually meant I was well on my way to a full blown episode. Lithium and wellbutrin (and time) have ended this pattern. -Doug

        Hang in there, the sleep problems sound all to familiar.  I used klonopin at first but it is addictive, then Desyrl(sp?) which is a modern form of tricyclic that may have a serotonin effect as well and it helped tremendously….it will make some of us light headed and disoriented but it is a good sleep inducer.         I have found that sleep is the main area that changes regardless of whether i am high or low….it is tough.         i did try trcyclics at first and they helped.         we are all different i think, but there is a combination of meds that will kick in for you.         Ad you are not alone by a long shot, bpd, is simiply not publicized alot and when it is only he most extreme cases are mentioned.  those of us living a ‘normal’ life with it are just a silent group i guess, busy dealing with it. regards Ernie ising

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Hi!   I’m looking for help from anyone out there who may have experienced symptoms similiar to mine. I have had a depression followed by a mild manic episode which has possibly caused 8 months of insomnia (ie early morning waking,  and very light sleep). I have been told that I probably have manic depression but that the sleeping pattern I have  (ie extended insomnia) is unusual. I’m on trycyclic anti-depressants but they have been no help. Has anyone reading this had the same long-term sleeping problems? I would like to know what helped you! I’m using a friends e-mail at the moment, so , if you have any information for me would you be able to write to- Emma. C. Buninyong VIC  3357 Australia If you cannot rwrite you could reply by e-mail but please put EMMA as the subject. Thankyou!

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi!  I’m looking for help from anyone out there who may have experienced symptoms similiar to mine. I have had a depression followed by a mild manic episode which has possibly caused 8 months of insomnia (ie early morning waking, and very light sleep). I have been told that I probably have manic depression but that the sleeping pattern I have  (ie extended insomnia) is unusual. I’m on trycyclic anti-depressants but they have been no help. Has anyone reading this had the same long-term sleeping problems? I would like to know what helped you! I’m using a friends e-mail at the moment, so , if you have any information for me would you be able to write to- Emma. C. Buninyong VIC  3357 Australia If you cannot rwrite you could reply by e-mail but please put EMMA as the subject. Thankyou!

Emma, I haven’t been good and high in about 10 years, but in the past the most usual sign was insomnia, 3-5 days of it usually meant I was well on my way to a full blown episode. Lithium and wellbutrin (and time) have ended this pattern. -Doug

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I have had insomnia for as long as I can remember.  I have taken trazadone, klonipin, ativan, xanax, restorial, and I usually always get perscribed Ambien because it works.  I am on Depakote, Topamax, Seroquel, and Effexor XR so you think that would make me fall asleep but it doesn’t. Betsy Ach – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – jack and lisa"  I have been annoyed by it for 3 years.  But, I now have a p doc who will give me prescrip. for Clonipin, telling me to only take 1/2 pill when possible, instead of whole one. Last year, I used to lay my head down for half hour at a time, never sleeping all night, finally get dressed at 5:30 AM, go to diner, to keep house quiet for husband, trying to sleep.He has no trouble sleeping, unless I am roaming around. the clonipin can give a side affect or 2, but when I need it, which is usually the case, I take it. GGOODD luck. Dot

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jack and lisa"  I have been annoyed by it for 3 years.  But, I now have a p doc who will give me prescrip. for Clonipin, telling me to only take 1/2 pill when possible, instead of whole one. Last year, I used to lay my head down for half hour at a time, never sleeping all night, finally get dressed at 5:30 AM, go to diner, to keep house quiet for husband, trying to sleep.He has no trouble sleeping, unless I am roaming around. the clonipin can give a side affect or 2, but when I need it, which is usually the case, I take it. GGOODD luck. Dot

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I have suffered from insomnia off and on all my life, well all my life that I can remember, even as a young girl like age 9 and upwords.. Tonight I am having insomnia and I know why..it is called alarm clock anxiety..When I have to wake up to an alarm clock I either can not sleep or I sleep restlessly.. So far I have not been able to fall asleep tonigh..it is almost 5:30am now and my alarm will go off at 11:30am..I have an appt to go to at 1:15pm.. In my early 20’s I was under a lot of stress because of bad relationships with my mother and my boyfriend so my anxiety would last for a week at a time..finally I had to go to the Dr. to get some Xanax..this knocked the shit out of me and I could sleep for days on that stuff.. I take 1mg of Klonopin twice a day but it doesn’t make me tired.. Now when I don’t have to get up to an alarm clock I usually fall asleep by 4:30am and sleep till about 3:30pm..I don’t work right now so that if why I have these crazy hours for sleeping..I am a night owl by nature..               MELISSA

HAPPY NEWYEAR–2000!!

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Melissa,     You sound alot like me, I’m a night owl too. I can remember not being able to sleep as young as 9 or 10 too. I usually try and go to bed before 2am, but not always successful. Getting to sleep isn’t usually that hard but staying asleep is my real problem. Waking up over and over and not being able to fall back asleep is really difficult to cope with. If I know that I’m going to have to get up via alarm clock I have a hard time sleeping too. It is almost unimaginable at the slightest things that can keep my brain awake and unable to drift off. It literally drives me nuts until one night I will finally just crash and sleep all night. Lisa – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have suffered from insomnia off and on all my life, well all my life that I can remember, even as a young girl like age 9 and upwords.. Tonight I am having insomnia and I know why..it is called alarm clock anxiety..When I have to wake up to an alarm clock I either can not sleep or I sleep restlessly.. So far I have not been able to fall asleep tonigh..it is almost 5:30am now and my alarm will go off at 11:30am..I have an appt to go to at 1:15pm.. In my early 20’s I was under a lot of stress because of bad relationships with my mother and my boyfriend so my anxiety would last for a week at a time..finally I had to go to the Dr. to get some Xanax..this knocked the shit out of me and I could sleep for days on that stuff.. I take 1mg of Klonopin twice a day but it doesn’t make me tired.. Now when I don’t have to get up to an alarm clock I usually fall asleep by 4:30am and sleep till about 3:30pm..I don’t work right now so that if why I have these crazy hours for sleeping..I am a night owl by nature..               MELISSA HAPPY NEW YEAR–2000!!

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I have had insomnia almost as long as I can remember back into my childhood. I’m Bipolar II and continue to be VERY annoyed by it. I was wondering how many bipolars out there have this constant insomnia thing too? So raise your hand and speak up! Lisa

Can I ever sympathize with that! My mom tells me that I was prescribed sleeping meds even as a toddler However I find that whatever I get now tends to work for about a week and then loses its effectiveness sharply after that.  My problem is falling asleep — sleeping in the morning wouldn’t be a problem, if it weren’t for that pesky job I have to go to Usually I end up sleeping about 5 hours a night, except when I get totally exhausted. Cheers, TAE

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20 years of insomnia.  Lamactil and trazodone for me did the trick so far. Too soon to tell for sure.  Tried it all before.  Good luck.  Not sleeping and bipolar are a bad mix.   TW – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –     I have had insomnia almost as long as I can remember back into my childhood. I’m Bipolar II and continue to be VERY annoyed by it. I was wondering how many bipolars out there have this constant insomnia thing too? So raise your hand and speak up! Lisa

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20 years of insomnia.  Lamactil and trazodone for me did the trick so far. Too soon to tell for sure.  Tried it all before.  Good luck.  Not sleeping and bipolar are a bad mix.   TW

My problem isn’t so much getting to sleep, but getting "good sleep". I usually wake up two or three times a night. Then even when I do sleep, I wake up the next day more tired than when I went to bed. My PDoc has siad it might be anxiety or maybe sleep apnea. My theory is that I am half asleep when I am awake, so I’m half awake when I am asleep.                       Ralph

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Hi Lisa,     I have had insomnia almost as long as I can remember back into my childhood. I’m Bipolar II and continue to be VERY annoyed by it. I was wondering how many bipolars out there have this constant insomnia thing too? So raise your hand and speak up!

I have aninterrupted sleep cycle and was evaluated at the sleep disorders lab at UNC here in Chapel Hill. I was told the following: 1. Go to bed the same time nightty…30 min. leeway here 2. Get up the same time daily even if I didn’t sleep 3. Go outside and saty there for about 3o min, to receive the morning light (which is the strongest) 4. Take 3 mg of Melatonin nightly to reset my circadian Rhythm  which can take weeks to months. 5. Stop taking any sleeping medication 6. NO caffeine 7. NO exercise at night So, perhaps a consultation with a sleep disorders specialist would be a prudent thing to do. I do not recommend that you take any OTC drugs including Melatonin without your doc’s approval. My sleep cycle has been awry for over 10 years but it is improving with the suggestions I was given. Best of luck to you. Peace, Lynda

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Hi Lisa: My hand is up.  I’m also BPII and have had insomnia most of my life.  I take 100 mg. of trazodone at bedtime and it normally keeps me asleep most of the night. Toni – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –     I have had insomnia almost as long as I can remember back into my childhood. I’m Bipolar II and continue to be VERY annoyed by it. I was wondering how many bipolars out there have this constant insomnia thing too? So raise your hand and speak up! Lisa

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    I have had insomnia almost as long as I can remember back into my childhood. I’m Bipolar II and continue to be VERY annoyed by it. I was wondering how many bipolars out there have this constant insomnia thing too? So raise your hand and speak up! Lisa

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   I have had insomnia almost as long as I can remember back into my childhood. I’m Bipolar II and continue to be VERY annoyed by it. I was wondering how many bipolars out there have this constant insomnia thing too? So raise your hand and speak up! Lisa

I’ve had insomnia problems all my life, its now under control through medications used to treat my bipolar disorder. I take risperdol, depakote, xanax, and remeron at bed time. Quite a lot of drugs, but my sleep pattern is much improved since I started taking this mix. Hammer on you doctor, tell him that you’ve had these troubles all your life. I complained about it over several appointments over a few months and finally he listened. Web Page at: http://www.robertpo.com

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My 24 year old girlfriend can’t get to sleep and stay asleep.  Often she gets only two hours of sleep a night.  Any suggestions?  Please reply direct to me.  Thanks. Randy

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My 24 year old girlfriend can’t get to sleep and stay asleep.  Often she gets only two hours of sleep a night.  Any suggestions?  Please reply direct to me.  Thanks. Randy

Your girlfriend should try Reishi.  I used to have insomnia but since I started taking Reishi daily over a year ago, I have no more sleeping problem.  Furthermore, I wake up fresh in the morning without relying on an alarm clock and can start working almost immediately. I know over 200 friends who are on Reishi daily.  They report the same experience with Reishi. Dosage is important.  We take 4 capsules of 370 mg each of a 100% pure mycelium extract of Ganoderma Lucidum before going to bed.  The concentration of polysaccharides is over 40%.   500-1,000mg of Vitamin C should also be taken daily (after meals) to help the absorption of Reishi polysaccharides. Good health! Gilbert Ng, Ph.D.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I occasionally have bouts of insomnia and had a couple of questions which may or may not have answers. 1)During a cycle of insomnia which may last several days or longer, why   will I wake up at amost the same time in the wee hours, say 3:45 a.m. every time? This is regardless of what time I went to bed, or got up the previous morning, whether I fell immediately asleep or not, what I did during the day, etc. 2)Why, when I wake up suddenly in the middle of the night will I be unable to return to sleep until perhaps 20 or 30 minutes before I have to get up, after laying awake for perhaps two hours or more?  Many people told me they have had the same experience.  When I do fall asleep in that short time before having to rise, it always seem to be a very deep sleep and when the alarm goes off, I usually feel even more exhausted than when I was lying awake trying to falling asleep. 3)Finally, are there any known natural remedies for insomnia?  I have never taken anything like Sominex or other over the counter (or prescription drugs) for insomnia?  I was once told these drugs don’t really cause you to sleep, but rather put you in a "drugged state" and rather than asleep you are rather more unconscious, and what you get is not really as restful and healthful as "real sleep." Thanks. Deborah

I recently started taking a product made by Twin Labs called GABA Plus to see if it would help with insomnia.  Each capsule contains 100 mg. GABA, 600 mg. inositol, and 200 mg. niacinamide.  I take 4-5 capsules at bedtime.  I have been sleeping much better and in deeper stages of sleep.  I have tried many natural products that are supposed to help sleep, but this seems to have helped me the most.   Hope you find benefit also.   Also, I have read that if one wakes up at 3:00 in the morning, it may indicate a lack of calcium and magnesium.  Try taking some before bed. Another thing I think is helping me is to engage in aerobic exercise 3-4 times a week (the kind where you get your heart rate in the correct zone for you and keep it there for 15-20 minutes).  Let me know how it goes. I know how frustrating it can be to have insomnia.  I’m with you–natural remedies are the best.–ms

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What you describe are known in homeopathy as modalities. Modalities are the things that make a particular health problem worse or better. As my doctor, Peter Hinderberger said, "Homeopathy lives in the modalities." They’re the most important clue to the selection of the proper remedy. The particular modalities you describe (wakes up at 3 AM, has trouble falling back asleep, and wakes up feeling wretched) are well known modalities of the homeopathic medicine Nux Vomica. While I can’t conclude on the basis of your post that Nux Vomica is the correct medicine for you, you may want to consult a homeopathic book on self-care such as "Everybody’s Guide to Homeopathic Medicine" for the proper use of homeopathic medicines against insomnia. — Bernie Simon          Confucius said, "It is after the coldest weather that

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my aunt is tryiong out a ayurvedic formula commercially available as "Trimax" and she sais it is helping her with uneasy sleep… maybe it’ll help with insomnia… an herb known as valerian puts me right out but i heard it shouldnt be used continually… tryptophan is supposed to be very effective but the us government outlawed it for who-knows-why… it is present in milk… used to be able to find a food supplement for horses that contained 20% tryptophan but now i cant even find that… itxs the war on medicine i guess… GABA is upposed to help with sleep also, i believe you can still get that… …x

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     Finally, are there any known natural remedies for insomnia?   A music teacher of mine from South India used to drink warm milk with saffron and honey before retiring. While I can’t vouch for it as a remedy for insomnia, I must say it certainly is delicious. JB.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I occasionally have bouts of insomnia and had a couple of questions which may or may not have answers. 1)During a cycle of insomnia which may last several days or longer, why   will I wake up at amost the same time in the wee hours, say 3:45 a.m. every time? This is regardless of what time I went to bed, or got up the previous morning, whether I fell immediately asleep or not, what I did during the day, etc. 2)Why, when I wake up suddenly in the middle of the night will I be unable to return to sleep until perhaps 20 or 30 minutes before I have to get up, after laying awake for perhaps two hours or more?  Many people told me they have had the same experience.  When I do fall asleep in that short time before having to rise, it always seem to be a very deep sleep and when the alarm goes off, I usually feel even more exhausted than when I was lying awake trying to falling asleep. 3)Finally, are there any known natural remedies for insomnia?  I have never taken anything like Sominex or other over the counter (or prescription drugs) for insomnia?  I was once told these drugs don’t really cause you to sleep, but rather put you in a "drugged state" and rather than asleep you are rather more unconscious, and what you get is not really as restful and healthful as "real sleep." Thanks. Deborah

There is a homeopathic remedy, Nux Vomica, that fits your symptoms pretty well.  A quote from Boericke’s Materica Medica:         Sleep–*Cannot sleep after 3 a.m. until early towards;         early morning; awakes feeling wretchedly*  Drowsy after         meals, and in early evening.  Dreams full of bustle and         hurry.  *Better after a short sleep,* unless aroused. Your symptoms don’t have to fit this description exactly, and if you fit just the emphasized portions you should definitely try it.  Nux is for people who suffer from mental strain due to overwork and seek relief from stimulants, tobacco, wine, sex, or over-indulging in food. It is the "hangover remedy" and will definitely help when you have a hangover, but you should use it only rarely for this.  I took Nux 200c for sleep problems (prescribed by my doctor), but maybe you should start with 30c and if it helps but the effect isn’t long lasting then try 200c.   BTW you should get a book on homeopathy if you decide to try this and read up on how to use homeopathic remedies safely. Karen Allen

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I occasionally have bouts of insomnia and had a couple of questions which may or may not have answers. 1)During a cycle of insomnia which may last several days or longer, why   will I wake up at amost the same time in the wee hours, say 3:45 a.m. every time? This is regardless of what time I went to bed, or got up the previous morning, whether I fell immediately asleep or not, what I did during the day, etc. 2)Why, when I wake up suddenly in the middle of the night will I be unable to return to sleep until perhaps 20 or 30 minutes before I have to get up, after laying awake for perhaps two hours or more?  Many people told me they have had the same experience.  When I do fall asleep in that short time before having to rise, it always seem to be a very deep sleep and when the alarm goes off, I usually feel even more exhausted than when I was lying awake trying to falling asleep. 3)Finally, are there any known natural remedies for insomnia?  I have never taken anything like Sominex or other over the counter (or prescription drugs) for insomnia?  I was once told these drugs don’t really cause you to sleep, but rather put you in a "drugged state" and rather than asleep you are rather more unconscious, and what you get is not really as restful and healthful as "real sleep." Thanks. Deborah

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Bill try it with hypnosis Guenther – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dear readers: My wife has serious problems with insomnia (she’s also deeply suspicious about the Internet which is why I’m writing.)  She’s tried valerian which gives her headaches and makes her dizzy; she’s tried chamomile which has no effect whatsoever.  Doctors have prescribed Dalmane (addictive), Xanax (addictive and effective only in large doses), Restoril (bad side effects.) I used to have troubles sleeping (I’d wake at 3am and be wide awake for 2 hours) until a friend asked me how much coffee I drank. I said 3 cups…two in the morning and one at 3pm. He told me to completely stop. Well, I love coffee so I decided to just stop at the 2 cups in the morning. The next night I slept clear through the night. Caffiene does really weird things to sleep patterns… Something else that really helps is a hot mug of Ovaltine before bed. The regular cocoa flavor, not the darker chocolate…too much sugar… Also, you ever notice how hard it is to stay awake when you’re tired and you’re trying to watch something like the news on TV? A radio station here used to play the old Suspense shows at 11pm. I’d get into bed and hit the sleep button on the clock radio so I could listen to it and the radio would shut off in an hour. I never made it through a show. Books on tape do the same thing! I hope these suggestions help. Nothing is worse than insomnia. Good Luck Bill

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Alcohol interferes with stage four sleep.  If you are using it for insomnia, you are just compounding the problem. As always, all opinions are purely those of the author, who accepts full responsibility for their ability to upset people. Michael P.Acord, MD

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I have had good experience with Nikken magnetic relaxation products. I was waking up in the night and having a hard time getting back to sleep. After four days with the mattress I now sleep completely through the night and wake up feeling more refreshed and withless stiffness. I would be happy to share this information. Clive Scullion Bodywork Central http://www.bodyworkcentral.com

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Steven, I have known quite a few people to have been helped by certain herbs and supplements.  I have some information if you would like some.  E-mail me your address and I will mail you off some information if you would like.

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Dear readers: My wife has serious problems with insomnia (she’s also deeply

 My recommendation is that she try massage therapy.  This is a great method for helping a person to relax.  There are techniques that can assist with insomnia.  Check your local yellow pages under massage therapy.  A therapist who is a member of the AMTA should be a good one.  Also, you can check out the NCTMB web page for more info on how to select a massage therapist. Sincerely, Ann

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I had the same problem all my life. Then someone recommended this to me & it really worked! Plus it has other benificial qualities, especially for women. Calcium!!!! It’s a natural calming agent. Try taking a supplement of 500mg’s one with breakfast one with dinner (this equals the RDA too). Get a supplement that also contains magnesium as this is needed for the body to absorbe calcium. [The body can only absorbe 500mg's of calcium at a time (hence the morning & nite dose).] It takes about 2 weeks to have effect. It has been bliss!!! If you do a search for calcium on the web, you can confirm these facts. Best. Love, Elizabeth Fiend         ‘;’;';’;';’;';’;';’;';’;';’;';’;';’;';’;';’;';’;';’;';’         ;    slide guitar player in the psycho-thrash band    ;         ; http://philae.sas.upenn.edu/music/rock/morefiends/  ;         ‘                    215-551-1945                     ‘                       ‘;’;';’;';’;';’;';’;';’;';’;';’;';’;';’;';’;';’;';’;';’

: Dear readers: : : My wife has serious problems with insomnia (she’s also deeply : suspicious about the Internet which is why I’m writing.)  She’s tried : valerian which gives her headaches and makes her dizzy; she’s tried : chamomile which has no effect whatsoever.  Doctors have prescribed : Dalmane (addictive), Xanax (addictive and effective only in large : doses), Restoril (bad side effects.)   : : The one remedy which really worked was L-tryptophane which the FDA : took off the market after a contaminated batch from Japan made various : people very sick, and now they refuse to allow it to be reintroduced : to the American market. : : Her symptoms include:  inability to get to sleep until 2-3 a.m.   : Irritability and anxiety if not rested.  Severe sleep : deprivation–which occurs usually without the intervention of one of : the above drugs–causes wild mood swings.  ANy help would be : appreciated. : I had the same problem. All the traditional herbal cures either did : not work or only worked for a short period. L-tryptophan worked on me : but I became a bit worried about taking it after all the adverse : publicity it got a few years ago. All the prescription drugs that I : have tried either stop working after a few weeks or they carry on : working until about half way through the following day. I have tried a : bit of diet "tuning" over the last few months and the best thing I : have found to get a good nights sleep is a generous glass of red wine : just before going to bed. The second best is a double Irish whiskey : with chilled water. So, it’s alcohol for me every night. : Steve : Stephen Wolstenholme: Author of Neural Network Shareware : web:    http://www.tropheus.demon.co.uk

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Dear readers: My wife has serious problems with insomnia (she’s also deeply suspicious about the Internet which is why I’m writing.)  She’s tried valerian which gives her headaches and makes her dizzy; she’s tried chamomile which has no effect whatsoever.  Doctors have prescribed Dalmane (addictive), Xanax (addictive and effective only in large doses), Restoril (bad side effects.)

I used to have troubles sleeping (I’d wake at 3am and be wide awake for 2 hours) until a friend asked me how much coffee I drank. I said 3 cups…two in the morning and one at 3pm. He told me to completely stop. Well, I love coffee so I decided to just stop at the 2 cups in the morning. The next night I slept clear through the night. Caffiene does really weird things to sleep patterns… Something else that really helps is a hot mug of Ovaltine before bed. The regular cocoa flavor, not the darker chocolate…too much sugar… Also, you ever notice how hard it is to stay awake when you’re tired and you’re trying to watch something like the news on TV? A radio station here used to play the old Suspense shows at 11pm. I’d get into bed and hit the sleep button on the clock radio so I could listen to it and the radio would shut off in an hour. I never made it through a show. Books on tape do the same thing! I hope these suggestions help. Nothing is worse than insomnia. Good Luck Bill

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dear readers: My wife has serious problems with insomnia (she’s also deeply suspicious about the Internet which is why I’m writing.)  She’s tried valerian which gives her headaches and makes her dizzy; she’s tried chamomile which has no effect whatsoever.  Doctors have prescribed Dalmane (addictive), Xanax (addictive and effective only in large doses), Restoril (bad side effects.)   The one remedy which really worked was L-tryptophane which the FDA took off the market after a contaminated batch from Japan made various people very sick, and now they refuse to allow it to be reintroduced to the American market. Her symptoms include:  inability to get to sleep until 2-3 a.m.   Irritability and anxiety if not rested.  Severe sleep deprivation–which occurs usually without the intervention of one of the above drugs–causes wild mood swings.  ANy help would be appreciated.

I had the same problem. All the traditional herbal cures either did not work or only worked for a short period. L-tryptophan worked on me but I became a bit worried about taking it after all the adverse publicity it got a few years ago. All the prescription drugs that I have tried either stop working after a few weeks or they carry on working until about half way through the following day. I have tried a bit of diet "tuning" over the last few months and the best thing I have found to get a good nights sleep is a generous glass of red wine just before going to bed. The second best is a double Irish whiskey with chilled water. So, it’s alcohol for me every night. Steve Stephen Wolstenholme: Author of Neural Network Shareware web:    http://www.tropheus.demon.co.uk

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Dear readers: My wife has serious problems with insomnia (she’s also deeply suspicious about the Internet which is why I’m writing.)  She’s tried valerian which gives her headaches and makes her dizzy; she’s tried chamomile which has no effect whatsoever.  Doctors have prescribed Dalmane (addictive), Xanax (addictive and effective only in large doses), Restoril (bad side effects.)   The one remedy which really worked was L-tryptophane which the FDA took off the market after a contaminated batch from Japan made various people very sick, and now they refuse to allow it to be reintroduced to the American market. Her symptoms include:  inability to get to sleep until 2-3 a.m.   Irritability and anxiety if not rested.  Severe sleep deprivation–which occurs usually without the intervention of one of the above drugs–causes wild mood swings.  ANy help would be appreciated.

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AMBIEN is the brand name for zolpidem which is a short acting drug used only for short term relief of insomnia. It is the best drug for sleep inducing for lupus patients and sleep is very important in the treatment of the syndrome. j.mills,dph

Hmmmm… Is that the same as Zopiclon. (Imovane)? If not, this stuff isn’t available in Norway… — Best regards,                 Visit my homepage: Med vennlig hilsen,          <URL:http://home.newmedia.no/flaker/ _Aase Marit_ ))))))

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Could you please tell me what the active ingredient in Ambien is? (Had to dig through claim forms…)  Sorry; my receipt just calls it "ambien".  My MD said it was new (this was Fall of ‘95) and the "base

How did Ambien get started in the Arthritis newsgroup? Just wondering… I work for the R&D department of the company that makes it… For more info, you may wish to check out www.searlehealthnet.com. I’m not sure what the active ingredient is (I’m a graphic artist) but I’m sure you can find out through the web site.

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How did Ambien get started in the Arthritis newsgroup? Just wondering… I

How did a graphic artist come to join an RA newsgroup? (G) work for the R&D department of the company that makes it… For more info, you may wish to check out www.searlehealthnet.com. I’m not sure what the active ingredient is (I’m a graphic artist) but I’m sure you can find out through the web site.

My DR prescribed Ambien for my sleeping problems resulting from my RA in my neck (and other locations). I’ve found that 5mg about 30 min before bedtime works great most of the time. On a few occasions, I’ve need to take another 5mg an hour or so later. The benefits of a rest-filled night of sleep, vis-a-vis my RA, cannot be overstated. I’m just sorry that I refused to take sleeping pills for so long. Jima Adams

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You have to have great insurance to take Ambien around $2 a pill.

Hmmm… more like $.33 each for me.  My receipt says 30 tabs for $9.99 at Fay’s Drugs.  Maybe I have great insurance. Beth

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        Ambien is zolpidem tartrate, a non benozodiazepine (hence not related to valium, ativan etc) hypnotic of the imiazopyridine class. It is an effective sleep inducing agent for some people; I use it in fibromyalgia a lot.  However, some people have no effect or feel quite drugged. Regards, Susan Hoch, M.D. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, Beth! Could you please tell me what the active ingredient in Ambien is? — Best regards,                 Visit my homepage: Med vennlig hilsen,          <URL:http://home.newmedia.no/flaker/ _Aase Marit_ )))))) I hope you can help me.  I’m at my wits end.  I have never been the best sleeper, but now I find I’m up all night – (snip) He says its the lesser of two evils – I suffer more if I don’t sleep, than if I get hooked. Any suggestions?  I hate to add more drugs to the list – You might want to ask your doctor about Ambien.  It is the best sleeping aid I have ever used.   (snip) I don’t know how it would interact with the Tylenol3.  Perhaps if you could sleep you wouldn’t need the Tylenol3? I want to heartily second the Ambien!  I am extremely sensitive to OTC sleep aids (take 1/2 dose and still fuzzy the next day) but I wasn’t getting my deep sleep.  My MD gave me the Ambien and it worked wonders! He told me there is no problem taking it with anything else I am on – which is Tylenol 3, anti-histamine/decongestant, a muscle relaxant, and Daypro (no, not all at once!  Each "as needed"). It truly is a "miracle drug" for me.  MD expressed a little concern about addiction to the Ambien though, and so he is rather stingy on prescribing it and I save it for "special occasions".  But as Laura/Sarah suggested, when I get the sleep I require, I don’t need so much in the line of pain meds. Good luck to you – Beth Floro

Susan Hoch                    

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He told me there is no problem taking it with anything else I am on – which is Tylenol 3, anti-histamine/decongestant, a muscle relaxant, and Daypro (no, not all at once!  Each "as needed").

You have to have great insurance to take Ambien around $2 a pill.   Kathi

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I take felxeril and it also doesn’t make me sleepy so much as it keeps in the deeper stges of sleep so I do not wake up every hour on the hour. Fortunatley, I have not had to take it much lately, but I had no problems with it when I was.  and at the time I was also on prenisone, relafin, and sulfasalizine.  Take Care. Nan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I hope you can help me.  I’m at my wits end.  I have never been the best sleeper, but now I find I’m up all night – (snip) He says its the lesser of two evils – I suffer more if I don’t sleep, than if I get hooked. Any suggestions?  I hate to add more drugs to the list –

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi all, I hope you can help me.  I’m at my wits end.  I have never been the best sleeper, but now I find I’m up all night – I finally doze from about six am to 9:30 or ten and thats it. My rd gave me 30 mgms of seraz (serax), but it only helped if I took 2 at a time.  Which is definately too many.  She gave up and sent me to my family doctor with this one.  He first gave me trypto something that didn’t help at all, and now he gives me immovane, which is only margianlly better, plus its addictive.  He says its the lesser of two evils – I suffer more if I don’t sleep, than if I ge hooked. Any suggestions?  I hate to add more drugs to the list – -methotrexate -cyclosporine -plaquenil tylenol #3 -paxil -immovane I feel like a toxic waste site. I’ve tried a couple of herbal remedies, but no luck at all there.  HELP PLEASE. Thanks, Aline

I tried some guaifenesin for fibromyalgia and low energy,   and found out that it helped me sleep better,   and dream a lot. I don’t take it AT bedtime,   just 400mg 2 or 3 times during the day. The only problem with this is you can’t take any salicylates,  that means no NSAIDS,  no aspirin,  etc. Guaifenesin is an OTC medicine,   $8.49 for 100 from a company on the ‘net. It is not a prescription drug.   — Shari Soza

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Hi, Beth! Could you please tell me what the active ingredient in Ambien is? — Best regards,                 Visit my homepage: Med vennlig hilsen,          <URL:http://home.newmedia.no/flaker/ _Aase Marit_ )))))) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I hope you can help me.  I’m at my wits end.  I have never been the best sleeper, but now I find I’m up all night – (snip) He says its the lesser of two evils – I suffer more if I don’t sleep, than if I get hooked. Any suggestions?  I hate to add more drugs to the list – You might want to ask your doctor about Ambien.  It is the best sleeping aid I have ever used.   (snip) I don’t know how it would interact with the Tylenol3.  Perhaps if you could sleep you wouldn’t need the Tylenol3? I want to heartily second the Ambien!  I am extremely sensitive to OTC sleep aids (take 1/2 dose and still fuzzy the next day) but I wasn’t getting my deep sleep.  My MD gave me the Ambien and it worked wonders! He told me there is no problem taking it with anything else I am on – which is Tylenol 3, anti-histamine/decongestant, a muscle relaxant, and Daypro (no, not all at once!  Each "as needed"). It truly is a "miracle drug" for me.  MD expressed a little concern about addiction to the Ambien though, and so he is rather stingy on prescribing it and I save it for "special occasions".  But as Laura/Sarah suggested, when I get the sleep I require, I don’t need so much in the line of pain meds. Good luck to you – Beth Floro

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Hi all, I hope you can help me.  I’m at my wits end.  I have never been the best sleeper, but now I find I’m up all night – I finally doze from about six am to 9:30 or ten and thats it. My rd gave me 30 mgms of seraz (serax), but it only helped if I took 2 at a time.  Which is definately too many.  She gave up and sent me to my family doctor with this one.  He first gave me trypto something that didn’t help at all, and now he gives me immovane, which is only margianlly better, plus its addictive.  He says its the lesser of two evils – I suffer more if I don’t sleep, than if I ge hooked. Any suggestions?  I hate to add more drugs to the list – -methotrexate -cyclosporine -plaquenil tylenol #3 -paxil -immovane I feel like a toxic waste site. I’ve tried a couple of herbal remedies, but no luck at all there.  HELP PLEASE. Thanks, Aline

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi all, I hope you can help me.  I’m at my wits end.  I have never been the best sleeper, but now I find I’m up all night – I finally doze from about six am to 9:30 or ten and thats it. My rd gave me 30 mgms of seraz (serax), but it only helped if I took 2 at a time.  Which is definately too many.  She gave up and sent me to my family doctor with this one.  He first gave me trypto something that didn’t help at all, and now he gives me immovane, which is only margianlly better, plus its addictive.  He says its the lesser of two evils – I suffer more if I don’t sleep, than if I ge hooked. Any suggestions?  I hate to add more drugs to the list – -methotrexate -cyclosporine -plaquenil tylenol #3 -paxil -immovane I feel like a toxic waste site. I’ve tried a couple of herbal remedies, but no luck at all there.  HELP PLEASE. Thanks, Aline

Aline, You might want to ask your doctor about Ambien.  It is the best sleeping aid I have ever used.  I think I may even be approaching a normal sleep schedule–something I’ve never had before–since I am now finding myself getting sleepy around 10 pm and able to nod off at least half the time without any medication at all. I don’t know how it would interact with the Tylenol3.  Perhaps if you could sleep you wouldn’t need the Tylenol3? Good luck getting some shut-eye. Laura

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi all, I hope you can help me.  I’m at my wits end.  I have never been the best sleeper, but now I find I’m up all night – Any suggestions?  I hate to add more drugs to the list – -methotrexate -cyclosporine -plaquenil tylenol #3 -paxil -immovane I feel like a toxic waste site. I’ve tried a couple of herbal remedies, but no luck at all there.  HELP PLEASE. Thanks, Aline

Aline- I take or have taken most of the medications you’re on and I can relate to the insomnia problem. I’m wondering if you noticed an increased problem with sleep after starting the Paxil.  I take Zoloft which is chemically related to Paxil and Prozac and even though I take it in the morning it causes sleep problems for me and for a lot of other people. My doctor ordered doxepin to take at bedtime which has helped alot.  My psychiatrist said that taking one of the more sedating tricyclic antidepressants at bedtime can help offset the insomnia of the Zoloft/Paxil/Prozac.(I’ve tried all 3). Unlike sleeping pills, the anti-depressants are not addicting.  Deb

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I hope you can help me.  I’m at my wits end.  I have never been the best sleeper, but now I find I’m up all night – (snip) He says its the lesser of two evils – I suffer more if I don’t sleep, than if I get hooked. Any suggestions?  I hate to add more drugs to the list – You might want to ask your doctor about Ambien.  It is the best sleeping aid I have ever used.   (snip) I don’t know how it would interact with the Tylenol3.  Perhaps if you could sleep you wouldn’t need the Tylenol3?

I want to heartily second the Ambien!  I am extremely sensitive to OTC sleep aids (take 1/2 dose and still fuzzy the next day) but I wasn’t getting my deep sleep.  My MD gave me the Ambien and it worked wonders! He told me there is no problem taking it with anything else I am on – which is Tylenol 3, anti-histamine/decongestant, a muscle relaxant, and Daypro (no, not all at once!  Each "as needed"). It truly is a "miracle drug" for me.  MD expressed a little concern about addiction to the Ambien though, and so he is rather stingy on prescribing it and I save it for "special occasions".  But as Laura/Sarah suggested, when I get the sleep I require, I don’t need so much in the line of pain meds. Good luck to you – Beth Floro

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My 24 year old girlfriend can’t get to sleep and stay asleep.  Often she gets only two hours of sleep a night.  Any suggestions?  Please reply direct to me.  Thanks. Randy

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My 24 year old girlfriend can’t get to sleep and stay asleep.  Often she gets only two hours of sleep a night.  Any suggestions?  Please reply direct to me.  Thanks. Randy

Your girlfriend should try Reishi.  I used to have insomnia but since I started taking Reishi daily over a year ago, I have no more sleeping problem.  Furthermore, I wake up fresh in the morning without relying on an alarm clock and can start working almost immediately. I know over 200 friends who are on Reishi daily.  They report the same experience with Reishi. Dosage is important.  We take 4 capsules of 370 mg each of a 100% pure mycelium extract of Ganoderma Lucidum before going to bed.  The concentration of polysaccharides is over 40%.   500-1,000mg of Vitamin C should also be taken daily (after meals) to help the absorption of Reishi polysaccharides. Good health! Gilbert Ng, Ph.D.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I occasionally have bouts of insomnia and had a couple of questions which may or may not have answers. 1)During a cycle of insomnia which may last several days or longer, why   will I wake up at amost the same time in the wee hours, say 3:45 a.m. every time? This is regardless of what time I went to bed, or got up the previous morning, whether I fell immediately asleep or not, what I did during the day, etc. 2)Why, when I wake up suddenly in the middle of the night will I be unable to return to sleep until perhaps 20 or 30 minutes before I have to get up, after laying awake for perhaps two hours or more?  Many people told me they have had the same experience.  When I do fall asleep in that short time before having to rise, it always seem to be a very deep sleep and when the alarm goes off, I usually feel even more exhausted than when I was lying awake trying to falling asleep. 3)Finally, are there any known natural remedies for insomnia?  I have never taken anything like Sominex or other over the counter (or prescription drugs) for insomnia?  I was once told these drugs don’t really cause you to sleep, but rather put you in a "drugged state" and rather than asleep you are rather more unconscious, and what you get is not really as restful and healthful as "real sleep." Thanks. Deborah

I recently started taking a product made by Twin Labs called GABA Plus to see if it would help with insomnia.  Each capsule contains 100 mg. GABA, 600 mg. inositol, and 200 mg. niacinamide.  I take 4-5 capsules at bedtime.  I have been sleeping much better and in deeper stages of sleep.  I have tried many natural products that are supposed to help sleep, but this seems to have helped me the most.   Hope you find benefit also.   Also, I have read that if one wakes up at 3:00 in the morning, it may indicate a lack of calcium and magnesium.  Try taking some before bed. Another thing I think is helping me is to engage in aerobic exercise 3-4 times a week (the kind where you get your heart rate in the correct zone for you and keep it there for 15-20 minutes).  Let me know how it goes. I know how frustrating it can be to have insomnia.  I’m with you–natural remedies are the best.–ms

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What you describe are known in homeopathy as modalities. Modalities are the things that make a particular health problem worse or better. As my doctor, Peter Hinderberger said, "Homeopathy lives in the modalities." They’re the most important clue to the selection of the proper remedy. The particular modalities you describe (wakes up at 3 AM, has trouble falling back asleep, and wakes up feeling wretched) are well known modalities of the homeopathic medicine Nux Vomica. While I can’t conclude on the basis of your post that Nux Vomica is the correct medicine for you, you may want to consult a homeopathic book on self-care such as "Everybody’s Guide to Homeopathic Medicine" for the proper use of homeopathic medicines against insomnia. — Bernie Simon          Confucius said, "It is after the coldest weather that

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my aunt is tryiong out a ayurvedic formula commercially available as "Trimax" and she sais it is helping her with uneasy sleep… maybe it’ll help with insomnia… an herb known as valerian puts me right out but i heard it shouldnt be used continually… tryptophan is supposed to be very effective but the us government outlawed it for who-knows-why… it is present in milk… used to be able to find a food supplement for horses that contained 20% tryptophan but now i cant even find that… itxs the war on medicine i guess… GABA is upposed to help with sleep also, i believe you can still get that… …x

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     Finally, are there any known natural remedies for insomnia?   A music teacher of mine from South India used to drink warm milk with saffron and honey before retiring. While I can’t vouch for it as a remedy for insomnia, I must say it certainly is delicious. JB.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I occasionally have bouts of insomnia and had a couple of questions which may or may not have answers. 1)During a cycle of insomnia which may last several days or longer, why   will I wake up at amost the same time in the wee hours, say 3:45 a.m. every time? This is regardless of what time I went to bed, or got up the previous morning, whether I fell immediately asleep or not, what I did during the day, etc. 2)Why, when I wake up suddenly in the middle of the night will I be unable to return to sleep until perhaps 20 or 30 minutes before I have to get up, after laying awake for perhaps two hours or more?  Many people told me they have had the same experience.  When I do fall asleep in that short time before having to rise, it always seem to be a very deep sleep and when the alarm goes off, I usually feel even more exhausted than when I was lying awake trying to falling asleep. 3)Finally, are there any known natural remedies for insomnia?  I have never taken anything like Sominex or other over the counter (or prescription drugs) for insomnia?  I was once told these drugs don’t really cause you to sleep, but rather put you in a "drugged state" and rather than asleep you are rather more unconscious, and what you get is not really as restful and healthful as "real sleep." Thanks. Deborah

There is a homeopathic remedy, Nux Vomica, that fits your symptoms pretty well.  A quote from Boericke’s Materica Medica:         Sleep–*Cannot sleep after 3 a.m. until early towards;         early morning; awakes feeling wretchedly*  Drowsy after         meals, and in early evening.  Dreams full of bustle and         hurry.  *Better after a short sleep,* unless aroused. Your symptoms don’t have to fit this description exactly, and if you fit just the emphasized portions you should definitely try it.  Nux is for people who suffer from mental strain due to overwork and seek relief from stimulants, tobacco, wine, sex, or over-indulging in food. It is the "hangover remedy" and will definitely help when you have a hangover, but you should use it only rarely for this.  I took Nux 200c for sleep problems (prescribed by my doctor), but maybe you should start with 30c and if it helps but the effect isn’t long lasting then try 200c.   BTW you should get a book on homeopathy if you decide to try this and read up on how to use homeopathic remedies safely. Karen Allen

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I occasionally have bouts of insomnia and had a couple of questions which may or may not have answers. 1)During a cycle of insomnia which may last several days or longer, why   will I wake up at amost the same time in the wee hours, say 3:45 a.m. every time? This is regardless of what time I went to bed, or got up the previous morning, whether I fell immediately asleep or not, what I did during the day, etc. 2)Why, when I wake up suddenly in the middle of the night will I be unable to return to sleep until perhaps 20 or 30 minutes before I have to get up, after laying awake for perhaps two hours or more?  Many people told me they have had the same experience.  When I do fall asleep in that short time before having to rise, it always seem to be a very deep sleep and when the alarm goes off, I usually feel even more exhausted than when I was lying awake trying to falling asleep. 3)Finally, are there any known natural remedies for insomnia?  I have never taken anything like Sominex or other over the counter (or prescription drugs) for insomnia?  I was once told these drugs don’t really cause you to sleep, but rather put you in a "drugged state" and rather than asleep you are rather more unconscious, and what you get is not really as restful and healthful as "real sleep." Thanks. Deborah

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Bill try it with hypnosis Guenther – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dear readers: My wife has serious problems with insomnia (she’s also deeply suspicious about the Internet which is why I’m writing.)  She’s tried valerian which gives her headaches and makes her dizzy; she’s tried chamomile which has no effect whatsoever.  Doctors have prescribed Dalmane (addictive), Xanax (addictive and effective only in large doses), Restoril (bad side effects.) I used to have troubles sleeping (I’d wake at 3am and be wide awake for 2 hours) until a friend asked me how much coffee I drank. I said 3 cups…two in the morning and one at 3pm. He told me to completely stop. Well, I love coffee so I decided to just stop at the 2 cups in the morning. The next night I slept clear through the night. Caffiene does really weird things to sleep patterns… Something else that really helps is a hot mug of Ovaltine before bed. The regular cocoa flavor, not the darker chocolate…too much sugar… Also, you ever notice how hard it is to stay awake when you’re tired and you’re trying to watch something like the news on TV? A radio station here used to play the old Suspense shows at 11pm. I’d get into bed and hit the sleep button on the clock radio so I could listen to it and the radio would shut off in an hour. I never made it through a show. Books on tape do the same thing! I hope these suggestions help. Nothing is worse than insomnia. Good Luck Bill

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Alcohol interferes with stage four sleep.  If you are using it for insomnia, you are just compounding the problem. As always, all opinions are purely those of the author, who accepts full responsibility for their ability to upset people. Michael P.Acord, MD

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I have had good experience with Nikken magnetic relaxation products. I was waking up in the night and having a hard time getting back to sleep. After four days with the mattress I now sleep completely through the night and wake up feeling more refreshed and withless stiffness. I would be happy to share this information. Clive Scullion Bodywork Central http://www.bodyworkcentral.com

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Steven, I have known quite a few people to have been helped by certain herbs and supplements.  I have some information if you would like some.  E-mail me your address and I will mail you off some information if you would like.

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Dear readers: My wife has serious problems with insomnia (she’s also deeply

 My recommendation is that she try massage therapy.  This is a great method for helping a person to relax.  There are techniques that can assist with insomnia.  Check your local yellow pages under massage therapy.  A therapist who is a member of the AMTA should be a good one.  Also, you can check out the NCTMB web page for more info on how to select a massage therapist. Sincerely, Ann

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I had the same problem all my life. Then someone recommended this to me & it really worked! Plus it has other benificial qualities, especially for women. Calcium!!!! It’s a natural calming agent. Try taking a supplement of 500mg’s one with breakfast one with dinner (this equals the RDA too). Get a supplement that also contains magnesium as this is needed for the body to absorbe calcium. [The body can only absorbe 500mg's of calcium at a time (hence the morning & nite dose).] It takes about 2 weeks to have effect. It has been bliss!!! If you do a search for calcium on the web, you can confirm these facts. Best. Love, Elizabeth Fiend         ‘;’;';’;';’;';’;';’;';’;';’;';’;';’;';’;';’;';’;';’;';’         ;    slide guitar player in the psycho-thrash band    ;         ; http://philae.sas.upenn.edu/music/rock/morefiends/  ;         ‘                    215-551-1945                     ‘                       ‘;’;';’;';’;';’;';’;';’;';’;';’;';’;';’;';’;';’;';’;';’

: Dear readers: : : My wife has serious problems with insomnia (she’s also deeply : suspicious about the Internet which is why I’m writing.)  She’s tried : valerian which gives her headaches and makes her dizzy; she’s tried : chamomile which has no effect whatsoever.  Doctors have prescribed : Dalmane (addictive), Xanax (addictive and effective only in large : doses), Restoril (bad side effects.)   : : The one remedy which really worked was L-tryptophane which the FDA : took off the market after a contaminated batch from Japan made various : people very sick, and now they refuse to allow it to be reintroduced : to the American market. : : Her symptoms include:  inability to get to sleep until 2-3 a.m.   : Irritability and anxiety if not rested.  Severe sleep : deprivation–which occurs usually without the intervention of one of : the above drugs–causes wild mood swings.  ANy help would be : appreciated. : I had the same problem. All the traditional herbal cures either did : not work or only worked for a short period. L-tryptophan worked on me : but I became a bit worried about taking it after all the adverse : publicity it got a few years ago. All the prescription drugs that I : have tried either stop working after a few weeks or they carry on : working until about half way through the following day. I have tried a : bit of diet "tuning" over the last few months and the best thing I : have found to get a good nights sleep is a generous glass of red wine : just before going to bed. The second best is a double Irish whiskey : with chilled water. So, it’s alcohol for me every night. : Steve : Stephen Wolstenholme: Author of Neural Network Shareware : web:    http://www.tropheus.demon.co.uk

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Dear readers: My wife has serious problems with insomnia (she’s also deeply suspicious about the Internet which is why I’m writing.)  She’s tried valerian which gives her headaches and makes her dizzy; she’s tried chamomile which has no effect whatsoever.  Doctors have prescribed Dalmane (addictive), Xanax (addictive and effective only in large doses), Restoril (bad side effects.)

I used to have troubles sleeping (I’d wake at 3am and be wide awake for 2 hours) until a friend asked me how much coffee I drank. I said 3 cups…two in the morning and one at 3pm. He told me to completely stop. Well, I love coffee so I decided to just stop at the 2 cups in the morning. The next night I slept clear through the night. Caffiene does really weird things to sleep patterns… Something else that really helps is a hot mug of Ovaltine before bed. The regular cocoa flavor, not the darker chocolate…too much sugar… Also, you ever notice how hard it is to stay awake when you’re tired and you’re trying to watch something like the news on TV? A radio station here used to play the old Suspense shows at 11pm. I’d get into bed and hit the sleep button on the clock radio so I could listen to it and the radio would shut off in an hour. I never made it through a show. Books on tape do the same thing! I hope these suggestions help. Nothing is worse than insomnia. Good Luck Bill

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dear readers: My wife has serious problems with insomnia (she’s also deeply suspicious about the Internet which is why I’m writing.)  She’s tried valerian which gives her headaches and makes her dizzy; she’s tried chamomile which has no effect whatsoever.  Doctors have prescribed Dalmane (addictive), Xanax (addictive and effective only in large doses), Restoril (bad side effects.)   The one remedy which really worked was L-tryptophane which the FDA took off the market after a contaminated batch from Japan made various people very sick, and now they refuse to allow it to be reintroduced to the American market. Her symptoms include:  inability to get to sleep until 2-3 a.m.   Irritability and anxiety if not rested.  Severe sleep deprivation–which occurs usually without the intervention of one of the above drugs–causes wild mood swings.  ANy help would be appreciated.

I had the same problem. All the traditional herbal cures either did not work or only worked for a short period. L-tryptophan worked on me but I became a bit worried about taking it after all the adverse publicity it got a few years ago. All the prescription drugs that I have tried either stop working after a few weeks or they carry on working until about half way through the following day. I have tried a bit of diet "tuning" over the last few months and the best thing I have found to get a good nights sleep is a generous glass of red wine just before going to bed. The second best is a double Irish whiskey with chilled water. So, it’s alcohol for me every night. Steve Stephen Wolstenholme: Author of Neural Network Shareware web:    http://www.tropheus.demon.co.uk

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Dear readers: My wife has serious problems with insomnia (she’s also deeply suspicious about the Internet which is why I’m writing.)  She’s tried valerian which gives her headaches and makes her dizzy; she’s tried chamomile which has no effect whatsoever.  Doctors have prescribed Dalmane (addictive), Xanax (addictive and effective only in large doses), Restoril (bad side effects.)   The one remedy which really worked was L-tryptophane which the FDA took off the market after a contaminated batch from Japan made various people very sick, and now they refuse to allow it to be reintroduced to the American market. Her symptoms include:  inability to get to sleep until 2-3 a.m.   Irritability and anxiety if not rested.  Severe sleep deprivation–which occurs usually without the intervention of one of the above drugs–causes wild mood swings.  ANy help would be appreciated.

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AMBIEN is the brand name for zolpidem which is a short acting drug used only for short term relief of insomnia. It is the best drug for sleep inducing for lupus patients and sleep is very important in the treatment of the syndrome. j.mills,dph

Hmmmm… Is that the same as Zopiclon. (Imovane)? If not, this stuff isn’t available in Norway… — Best regards,                 Visit my homepage: Med vennlig hilsen,          <URL:http://home.newmedia.no/flaker/ _Aase Marit_ ))))))

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Could you please tell me what the active ingredient in Ambien is? (Had to dig through claim forms…)  Sorry; my receipt just calls it "ambien".  My MD said it was new (this was Fall of ‘95) and the "base

How did Ambien get started in the Arthritis newsgroup? Just wondering… I work for the R&D department of the company that makes it… For more info, you may wish to check out www.searlehealthnet.com. I’m not sure what the active ingredient is (I’m a graphic artist) but I’m sure you can find out through the web site.

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How did Ambien get started in the Arthritis newsgroup? Just wondering… I

How did a graphic artist come to join an RA newsgroup? (G) work for the R&D department of the company that makes it… For more info, you may wish to check out www.searlehealthnet.com. I’m not sure what the active ingredient is (I’m a graphic artist) but I’m sure you can find out through the web site.

My DR prescribed Ambien for my sleeping problems resulting from my RA in my neck (and other locations). I’ve found that 5mg about 30 min before bedtime works great most of the time. On a few occasions, I’ve need to take another 5mg an hour or so later. The benefits of a rest-filled night of sleep, vis-a-vis my RA, cannot be overstated. I’m just sorry that I refused to take sleeping pills for so long. Jima Adams

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You have to have great insurance to take Ambien around $2 a pill.

Hmmm… more like $.33 each for me.  My receipt says 30 tabs for $9.99 at Fay’s Drugs.  Maybe I have great insurance. Beth

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        Ambien is zolpidem tartrate, a non benozodiazepine (hence not related to valium, ativan etc) hypnotic of the imiazopyridine class. It is an effective sleep inducing agent for some people; I use it in fibromyalgia a lot.  However, some people have no effect or feel quite drugged. Regards, Susan Hoch, M.D. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, Beth! Could you please tell me what the active ingredient in Ambien is? — Best regards,                 Visit my homepage: Med vennlig hilsen,          <URL:http://home.newmedia.no/flaker/ _Aase Marit_ )))))) I hope you can help me.  I’m at my wits end.  I have never been the best sleeper, but now I find I’m up all night – (snip) He says its the lesser of two evils – I suffer more if I don’t sleep, than if I get hooked. Any suggestions?  I hate to add more drugs to the list – You might want to ask your doctor about Ambien.  It is the best sleeping aid I have ever used.   (snip) I don’t know how it would interact with the Tylenol3.  Perhaps if you could sleep you wouldn’t need the Tylenol3? I want to heartily second the Ambien!  I am extremely sensitive to OTC sleep aids (take 1/2 dose and still fuzzy the next day) but I wasn’t getting my deep sleep.  My MD gave me the Ambien and it worked wonders! He told me there is no problem taking it with anything else I am on – which is Tylenol 3, anti-histamine/decongestant, a muscle relaxant, and Daypro (no, not all at once!  Each "as needed"). It truly is a "miracle drug" for me.  MD expressed a little concern about addiction to the Ambien though, and so he is rather stingy on prescribing it and I save it for "special occasions".  But as Laura/Sarah suggested, when I get the sleep I require, I don’t need so much in the line of pain meds. Good luck to you – Beth Floro

Susan Hoch                    

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He told me there is no problem taking it with anything else I am on – which is Tylenol 3, anti-histamine/decongestant, a muscle relaxant, and Daypro (no, not all at once!  Each "as needed").

You have to have great insurance to take Ambien around $2 a pill.   Kathi

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I take felxeril and it also doesn’t make me sleepy so much as it keeps in the deeper stges of sleep so I do not wake up every hour on the hour. Fortunatley, I have not had to take it much lately, but I had no problems with it when I was.  and at the time I was also on prenisone, relafin, and sulfasalizine.  Take Care. Nan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I hope you can help me.  I’m at my wits end.  I have never been the best sleeper, but now I find I’m up all night – (snip) He says its the lesser of two evils – I suffer more if I don’t sleep, than if I get hooked. Any suggestions?  I hate to add more drugs to the list –

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi all, I hope you can help me.  I’m at my wits end.  I have never been the best sleeper, but now I find I’m up all night – I finally doze from about six am to 9:30 or ten and thats it. My rd gave me 30 mgms of seraz (serax), but it only helped if I took 2 at a time.  Which is definately too many.  She gave up and sent me to my family doctor with this one.  He first gave me trypto something that didn’t help at all, and now he gives me immovane, which is only margianlly better, plus its addictive.  He says its the lesser of two evils – I suffer more if I don’t sleep, than if I ge hooked. Any suggestions?  I hate to add more drugs to the list – -methotrexate -cyclosporine -plaquenil tylenol #3 -paxil -immovane I feel like a toxic waste site. I’ve tried a couple of herbal remedies, but no luck at all there.  HELP PLEASE. Thanks, Aline

I tried some guaifenesin for fibromyalgia and low energy,   and found out that it helped me sleep better,   and dream a lot. I don’t take it AT bedtime,   just 400mg 2 or 3 times during the day. The only problem with this is you can’t take any salicylates,  that means no NSAIDS,  no aspirin,  etc. Guaifenesin is an OTC medicine,   $8.49 for 100 from a company on the ‘net. It is not a prescription drug.   — Shari Soza

Response:

Hi, Beth! Could you please tell me what the active ingredient in Ambien is? — Best regards,                 Visit my homepage: Med vennlig hilsen,          <URL:http://home.newmedia.no/flaker/ _Aase Marit_ )))))) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I hope you can help me.  I’m at my wits end.  I have never been the best sleeper, but now I find I’m up all night – (snip) He says its the lesser of two evils – I suffer more if I don’t sleep, than if I get hooked. Any suggestions?  I hate to add more drugs to the list – You might want to ask your doctor about Ambien.  It is the best sleeping aid I have ever used.   (snip) I don’t know how it would interact with the Tylenol3.  Perhaps if you could sleep you wouldn’t need the Tylenol3? I want to heartily second the Ambien!  I am extremely sensitive to OTC sleep aids (take 1/2 dose and still fuzzy the next day) but I wasn’t getting my deep sleep.  My MD gave me the Ambien and it worked wonders! He told me there is no problem taking it with anything else I am on – which is Tylenol 3, anti-histamine/decongestant, a muscle relaxant, and Daypro (no, not all at once!  Each "as needed"). It truly is a "miracle drug" for me.  MD expressed a little concern about addiction to the Ambien though, and so he is rather stingy on prescribing it and I save it for "special occasions".  But as Laura/Sarah suggested, when I get the sleep I require, I don’t need so much in the line of pain meds. Good luck to you – Beth Floro

Response:

Hi all, I hope you can help me.  I’m at my wits end.  I have never been the best sleeper, but now I find I’m up all night – I finally doze from about six am to 9:30 or ten and thats it. My rd gave me 30 mgms of seraz (serax), but it only helped if I took 2 at a time.  Which is definately too many.  She gave up and sent me to my family doctor with this one.  He first gave me trypto something that didn’t help at all, and now he gives me immovane, which is only margianlly better, plus its addictive.  He says its the lesser of two evils – I suffer more if I don’t sleep, than if I ge hooked. Any suggestions?  I hate to add more drugs to the list – -methotrexate -cyclosporine -plaquenil tylenol #3 -paxil -immovane I feel like a toxic waste site. I’ve tried a couple of herbal remedies, but no luck at all there.  HELP PLEASE. Thanks, Aline

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi all, I hope you can help me.  I’m at my wits end.  I have never been the best sleeper, but now I find I’m up all night – I finally doze from about six am to 9:30 or ten and thats it. My rd gave me 30 mgms of seraz (serax), but it only helped if I took 2 at a time.  Which is definately too many.  She gave up and sent me to my family doctor with this one.  He first gave me trypto something that didn’t help at all, and now he gives me immovane, which is only margianlly better, plus its addictive.  He says its the lesser of two evils – I suffer more if I don’t sleep, than if I ge hooked. Any suggestions?  I hate to add more drugs to the list – -methotrexate -cyclosporine -plaquenil tylenol #3 -paxil -immovane I feel like a toxic waste site. I’ve tried a couple of herbal remedies, but no luck at all there.  HELP PLEASE. Thanks, Aline

Aline, You might want to ask your doctor about Ambien.  It is the best sleeping aid I have ever used.  I think I may even be approaching a normal sleep schedule–something I’ve never had before–since I am now finding myself getting sleepy around 10 pm and able to nod off at least half the time without any medication at all. I don’t know how it would interact with the Tylenol3.  Perhaps if you could sleep you wouldn’t need the Tylenol3? Good luck getting some shut-eye. Laura

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi all, I hope you can help me.  I’m at my wits end.  I have never been the best sleeper, but now I find I’m up all night – Any suggestions?  I hate to add more drugs to the list – -methotrexate -cyclosporine -plaquenil tylenol #3 -paxil -immovane I feel like a toxic waste site. I’ve tried a couple of herbal remedies, but no luck at all there.  HELP PLEASE. Thanks, Aline

Aline- I take or have taken most of the medications you’re on and I can relate to the insomnia problem. I’m wondering if you noticed an increased problem with sleep after starting the Paxil.  I take Zoloft which is chemically related to Paxil and Prozac and even though I take it in the morning it causes sleep problems for me and for a lot of other people. My doctor ordered doxepin to take at bedtime which has helped alot.  My psychiatrist said that taking one of the more sedating tricyclic antidepressants at bedtime can help offset the insomnia of the Zoloft/Paxil/Prozac.(I’ve tried all 3). Unlike sleeping pills, the anti-depressants are not addicting.  Deb

Response:

I hope you can help me.  I’m at my wits end.  I have never been the best sleeper, but now I find I’m up all night – (snip) He says its the lesser of two evils – I suffer more if I don’t sleep, than if I get hooked. Any suggestions?  I hate to add more drugs to the list – You might want to ask your doctor about Ambien.  It is the best sleeping aid I have ever used.   (snip) I don’t know how it would interact with the Tylenol3.  Perhaps if you could sleep you wouldn’t need the Tylenol3?

I want to heartily second the Ambien!  I am extremely sensitive to OTC sleep aids (take 1/2 dose and still fuzzy the next day) but I wasn’t getting my deep sleep.  My MD gave me the Ambien and it worked wonders! He told me there is no problem taking it with anything else I am on – which is Tylenol 3, anti-histamine/decongestant, a muscle relaxant, and Daypro (no, not all at once!  Each "as needed"). It truly is a "miracle drug" for me.  MD expressed a little concern about addiction to the Ambien though, and so he is rather stingy on prescribing it and I save it for "special occasions".  But as Laura/Sarah suggested, when I get the sleep I require, I don’t need so much in the line of pain meds. Good luck to you – Beth Floro

Response:

Question:

Terri <terr…@vverizon.net

wrote in news:DoFZc.476$H26.74@trnddc07: For the OP: SAD doesn’t need the direct sunlight of midday. You could go for an hour long walk at 7 in the morning when the risk of sunburn is low to non-existent. That would provide you with a lot of light therapy and exercise without any risk no matter how fair your skin is. As winter approaches, you can walk later and later in the day without any risk to your skin. Given that you find the side effects of the anti-depressants unacceptable, it might be worth looking into this kind of non-drug treatment for SAD.

Very good advice, IMO. Chakolate — The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new discoveries, is not ‘Eureka!’ (I found it!) but ‘That’s funny …’   –Isaac Asimov

Response:

Absolutely. I was seen some years back for SAD. I timed this little break so I’d get a kind of ‘chemical rest’, no drugs for the summer and up until a couple weeks ago I was doing wonderfully well. Unfortunately, I am so fair skinned that I keep out of the sun and never tan. I always use sunblock. But I do try an get as much bright light as possible and have a special bright reading light. Thanks! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

You mention the days getting shorter… have you considered increasing your exposure to sunlight or bright light during the daytime hours? Might you have "seasonal affective disorder"? FurPaw — "Like the reason a dog Has so many friends He wags his tail Instead of his tongue" – Aerosmith To reply, unleash the dog

Response:

look into lamictal (lamictyl) not sure of the spelling. it’s been around for over 10 years. no side effects. "FEARLESS LEADER" <bkn…@comcast.net

wrote in message

news:-_KdnRQJBt4wEavcRVn-pg@comcast.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Is anyone having luck with antidepressants? I have taken a ‘vacation’ from Zoloft for a good 2 months and what a blessed relief! I sleep thru the night! (ok, unless it’s a super soaker night) I have occasional interest

in

sex! I can make it thru a day without diarrhea! But as the days are

getting

noticably shorter and the hormonal thing gets more intense, it’s obvious I need to start back again. But the side effects are unacceptable, just as they were on Prozac. Yes, I know we all respond differently. I’m just wondering if any of you have had success, have some words of wisdom. I’m expecting a call from my doctor in the morning regarding this and I

know

she won’t be pleased that I weaned myself off. If I must take something

and

hormoes are no longer an option then there’s got to be something with more tolerable side effects. Doesn’t there??? Thanks! kath

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Susan wrote:

x-no-archive: yes In article <GdGdnQP0pvnkB6vcRVn…@comcast.com, "FEARLESS LEADER" <bkn…@comcast.net writes: Unfortunately, I am so fair skinned that I keep out of the sun and never tan. I’ve had a lot of skin cancers, but I try to make sure to get at least a few minutes of sun exposure without protection or sunglasses each day. Staying out of the sun entirely is bad for your sleep, moods, bones and hormonal functioning in general. Susan

Yes, yes, yes. The general recommendation is 15 minutes a day without sunscreen sometime between 10:00 AM and 2 PM. For the OP: SAD doesn’t need the direct sunlight of midday. You could go for an hour long walk at 7 in the morning when the risk of sunburn is low to non-existent. That would provide you with a lot of light therapy and exercise without any risk no matter how fair your skin is. As winter approaches, you can walk later and later in the day without any risk to your skin. Given that you find the side effects of the anti-depressants unacceptable, it might be worth looking into this kind of non-drug treatment for SAD.

Response:

"FEARLESS LEADER" <bkn…@comcast.net

wrote in

news:-_KdnRQJBt4wEavcRVn-pg@comcast.com:

Is anyone having luck with antidepressants? I have taken a ‘vacation’ from Zoloft for a good 2 months and what a blessed relief! I sleep thru the night! (ok, unless it’s a super soaker night) I have occasional interest in sex! I can make it thru a day without diarrhea! But as the days are getting noticably shorter and the hormonal thing gets more intense, it’s obvious I need to start back again. But the side effects are unacceptable, just as they were on Prozac. Yes, I know we all respond differently. I’m just wondering if any of you have had success, have some words of wisdom. I’m expecting a call from my doctor in the morning regarding this and I know she won’t be pleased that I weaned myself off. If I must take something and hormoes are no longer an option then there’s got to be something with more tolerable side effects. Doesn’t there???

The only time I had a problem with Zoloft was when I had increased my dosage to 100 mg/day.  It made me too jumpy to sleep, although I didn’t notice the jumpiness during the daytime.  Did you take it in the morning?   Anyway, prozac and zoloft are very similar in their actions, so you might want to try one of the others, like wellbutrin (they claim ‘reduced risk of sexual side effects’).  Paxil works well for lots of people but you have to be careful to taper off when you stop. I know how annoying it can be to have to shop around for a med that works, but hang in there, when it works well it’s worth it.   Chakolate — The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new discoveries, is not ‘Eureka!’ (I found it!) but ‘That’s funny …’   –Isaac Asimov

Response:

Terri wrote:

Harriet wrote: look into lamictal (lamictyl) not sure of the spelling. it’s been around for over 10 years. no side effects.

I sent this at 4 in the morning. A Black Box warning is the strictest warning label a drug can have. It indicates potentially serious, life-threatening side effects. In addition to the black box warning re skin rashes which can be fatal, the side effects of this drug can be found at: http://www.rxlist.com/cgi/generic/lamotrigine_ad.htm It appears this drug jumped on the bandwagon created bt Pfizer for neurontin and tried to find it’s own little niche in off label uses for anti-epileptic drugs. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

The stuff has a black box warning on it for serious skin reactions. Here’s the warning: SERIOUS RASHES REQUIRING HOSPITALIZATION AND DISCONTINUATION OF TREATMENT HAVE BEEN REPORTED IN ASSOCIATION WITH THE USE OF LAMICTAL. THE INCIDENCE OF THESE RASHES, WHICH HAVE INCLUDED STEVENS-JOHNSON SYNDROME, IS APPROXIMATELY 0.8% (8 PER 1,000) IN PEDIATRIC PATIENTS (AGE <16 YEARS) RECEIVING LAMICTAL AS ADJUNCTIVE THERAPY FOR EPILEPSY AND 0.3% (3 PER 1,000) IN ADULTS ON ADJUNCTIVE THERAPY FOR EPILEPSY. IN CLINICAL TRIALS OF BIPOLAR AND OTHER MOOD DISORDERS, THE RATE OF SERIOUS RASH WAS 0.08% (0.8 PER 1,000) IN ADULT PATIENTS RECEIVING LAMICTAL AS INITIAL MONOTHERAPY AND 0.13% (1.3 PER 1,000) IN ADULT PATIENTS RECEIVING LAMICTAL AS ADJUNCTIVE THERAPY. IN A PROSPECTIVELY FOLLOWED COHORT OF 1,983 PEDIATRIC PATIENTS WITH EPILEPSY TAKING ADJUNCTIVE LAMICTAL, THERE WAS 1 RASH-RELATED DEATH. IN WORLDWIDE POSTMARKETING EXPERIENCE, RARE CASES OF TOXIC EPIDERMAL NECROLYSIS AND/OR RASH-RELATED DEATH HAVE BEEN REPORTED IN ADULT AND PEDIATRIC PATIENTS, BUT THEIR NUMBERS ARE TOO FEW TO PERMIT A PRECISE ESTIMATE OF THE RATE. BECAUSE THE RATE OF SERIOUS RASH IS GREATER IN PEDIATRIC PATIENTS THAN IN ADULTS, IT BEARS EMPHASIS THAT LAMICTAL IS APPROVED ONLY FOR USE IN PEDIATRIC PATIENTS BELOW THE AGE OF 16 YEARS WHO HAVE SEIZURES ASSOCIATED WITH THE LENNOX-GASTAUT SYNDROME OR IN PATIENTS WITH PARTIAL SEIZURES (SEE INDICATIONS). OTHER THAN AGE, THERE ARE AS YET NO FACTORS IDENTIFIED THAT ARE KNOWN TO PREDICT THE RISK OF OCCURRENCE OR THE SEVERITY OF RASH ASSOCIATED WITH LAMICTAL. THERE ARE SUGGESTIONS, YET TO BE PROVEN, THAT THE RISK OF RASH MAY ALSO BE INCREASED BY (1) COADMINISTRATION OF LAMICTAL WITH VALPROATE (INCLUDES VALPROIC ACID AND DIVALPROEX SODIUM), (2) EXCEEDING THE RECOMMENDED INITIAL DOSE OF LAMICTAL, OR (3) EXCEEDING THE RECOMMENDED DOSE ESCALATION FOR LAMICTAL. HOWEVER, CASES HAVE BEEN REPORTED IN THE ABSENCE OF THESE FACTORS. NEARLY ALL CASES OF LIFE-THREATENING RASHES ASSOCIATED WITH LAMICTAL HAVE OCCURRED WITHIN 2 TO 8 WEEKS OF TREATMENT INITIATION. HOWEVER, ISOLATED CASES HAVE BEEN REPORTED AFTER PROLONGED TREATMENT (E.G., 6 MONTHS). ACCORDINGLY, DURATION OF THERAPY CANNOT BE RELIED UPON AS A MEANS TO PREDICT THE POTENTIAL RISK HERALDED BY THE FIRST APPEARANCE OF A RASH. ALTHOUGH BENIGN RASHES ALSO OCCUR WITH LAMICTAL, IT IS NOT POSSIBLE TO PREDICT RELIABLY WHICH RASHES WILL PROVE TO BE SERIOUS OR LIFE THREATENING. ACCORDINGLY, LAMICTAL SHOULD ORDINARILY BE DISCONTINUED AT THE FIRST SIGN OF RASH, UNLESS THE RASH IS CLEARLY NOT DRUG RELATED. DISCONTINUATION OF TREATMENT MAY NOT PREVENT A RASH FROM BECOMING LIFE THREATENING OR PERMANENTLY DISABLING OR DISFIGURING. Never mind that this would be a totally unsanctioned off-label use for this drug. "FEARLESS LEADER" <bkn…@comcast.net wrote in message news:-_KdnRQJBt4wEavcRVn-pg@comcast.com… Is anyone having luck with antidepressants? I have taken a ‘vacation’ from Zoloft for a good 2 months and what a blessed relief! I sleep thru the night! (ok, unless it’s a super soaker night) I have occasional interest in sex! I can make it thru a day without diarrhea! But as the days are getting noticably shorter and the hormonal thing gets more intense, it’s obvious I need to start back again. But the side effects are unacceptable, just as they were on Prozac. Yes, I know we all respond differently. I’m just wondering if any of you have had success, have some words of wisdom. I’m expecting a call from my doctor in the morning regarding this and I know she won’t be pleased that I weaned myself off. If I must take something and hormoes are no longer an option then there’s got to be something with more tolerable side effects. Doesn’t there??? Thanks! kath

Response:

Harriet wrote:

look into lamictal (lamictyl) not sure of the spelling. it’s been around for over 10 years. no side effects.

The stuff has a black box warning on it for serious skin reactions. Here’s the warning: SERIOUS RASHES REQUIRING HOSPITALIZATION AND DISCONTINUATION OF TREATMENT HAVE BEEN REPORTED IN ASSOCIATION WITH THE USE OF LAMICTAL. THE INCIDENCE OF THESE RASHES, WHICH HAVE INCLUDED STEVENS-JOHNSON SYNDROME, IS APPROXIMATELY 0.8% (8 PER 1,000) IN PEDIATRIC PATIENTS (AGE <16 YEARS) RECEIVING LAMICTAL AS ADJUNCTIVE THERAPY FOR EPILEPSY AND 0.3% (3 PER 1,000) IN ADULTS ON ADJUNCTIVE THERAPY FOR EPILEPSY. IN CLINICAL TRIALS OF BIPOLAR AND OTHER MOOD DISORDERS, THE RATE OF SERIOUS RASH WAS 0.08% (0.8 PER 1,000) IN ADULT PATIENTS RECEIVING LAMICTAL AS INITIAL MONOTHERAPY AND 0.13% (1.3 PER 1,000) IN ADULT PATIENTS RECEIVING LAMICTAL AS ADJUNCTIVE THERAPY. IN A PROSPECTIVELY FOLLOWED COHORT OF 1,983 PEDIATRIC PATIENTS WITH EPILEPSY TAKING ADJUNCTIVE LAMICTAL, THERE WAS 1 RASH-RELATED DEATH. IN WORLDWIDE POSTMARKETING EXPERIENCE, RARE CASES OF TOXIC EPIDERMAL NECROLYSIS AND/OR RASH-RELATED DEATH HAVE BEEN REPORTED IN ADULT AND PEDIATRIC PATIENTS, BUT THEIR NUMBERS ARE TOO FEW TO PERMIT A PRECISE ESTIMATE OF THE RATE. BECAUSE THE RATE OF SERIOUS RASH IS GREATER IN PEDIATRIC PATIENTS THAN IN ADULTS, IT BEARS EMPHASIS THAT LAMICTAL IS APPROVED ONLY FOR USE IN PEDIATRIC PATIENTS BELOW THE AGE OF 16 YEARS WHO HAVE SEIZURES ASSOCIATED WITH THE LENNOX-GASTAUT SYNDROME OR IN PATIENTS WITH PARTIAL SEIZURES (SEE INDICATIONS). OTHER THAN AGE, THERE ARE AS YET NO FACTORS IDENTIFIED THAT ARE KNOWN TO PREDICT THE RISK OF OCCURRENCE OR THE SEVERITY OF RASH ASSOCIATED WITH LAMICTAL. THERE ARE SUGGESTIONS, YET TO BE PROVEN, THAT THE RISK OF RASH MAY ALSO BE INCREASED BY (1) COADMINISTRATION OF LAMICTAL WITH VALPROATE (INCLUDES VALPROIC ACID AND DIVALPROEX SODIUM), (2) EXCEEDING THE RECOMMENDED INITIAL DOSE OF LAMICTAL, OR (3) EXCEEDING THE RECOMMENDED DOSE ESCALATION FOR LAMICTAL. HOWEVER, CASES HAVE BEEN REPORTED IN THE ABSENCE OF THESE FACTORS. NEARLY ALL CASES OF LIFE-THREATENING RASHES ASSOCIATED WITH LAMICTAL HAVE OCCURRED WITHIN 2 TO 8 WEEKS OF TREATMENT INITIATION. HOWEVER, ISOLATED CASES HAVE BEEN REPORTED AFTER PROLONGED TREATMENT (E.G., 6 MONTHS). ACCORDINGLY, DURATION OF THERAPY CANNOT BE RELIED UPON AS A MEANS TO PREDICT THE POTENTIAL RISK HERALDED BY THE FIRST APPEARANCE OF A RASH. ALTHOUGH BENIGN RASHES ALSO OCCUR WITH LAMICTAL, IT IS NOT POSSIBLE TO PREDICT RELIABLY WHICH RASHES WILL PROVE TO BE SERIOUS OR LIFE THREATENING. ACCORDINGLY, LAMICTAL SHOULD ORDINARILY BE DISCONTINUED AT THE FIRST SIGN OF RASH, UNLESS THE RASH IS CLEARLY NOT DRUG RELATED. DISCONTINUATION OF TREATMENT MAY NOT PREVENT A RASH FROM BECOMING LIFE THREATENING OR PERMANENTLY DISABLING OR DISFIGURING. Never mind that this would be a totally unsanctioned off-label use for this drug. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

"FEARLESS LEADER" <bkn…@comcast.net wrote in message news:-_KdnRQJBt4wEavcRVn-pg@comcast.com… Is anyone having luck with antidepressants? I have taken a ‘vacation’ from Zoloft for a good 2 months and what a blessed relief! I sleep thru the night! (ok, unless it’s a super soaker night) I have occasional interest in sex! I can make it thru a day without diarrhea! But as the days are getting noticably shorter and the hormonal thing gets more intense, it’s obvious I need to start back again. But the side effects are unacceptable, just as they were on Prozac. Yes, I know we all respond differently. I’m just wondering if any of you have had success, have some words of wisdom. I’m expecting a call from my doctor in the morning regarding this and I know she won’t be pleased that I weaned myself off. If I must take something and hormoes are no longer an option then there’s got to be something with more tolerable side effects. Doesn’t there??? Thanks! kath

Response:

Is anyone having luck with antidepressants? I have taken a ‘vacation’ from Zoloft for a good 2 months and what a blessed relief! I sleep thru the night! (ok, unless it’s a super soaker night) I have occasional interest in sex! I can make it thru a day without diarrhea! But as the days are getting noticably shorter and the hormonal thing gets more intense, it’s obvious I need to start back again. But the side effects are unacceptable, just as they were on Prozac. Yes, I know we all respond differently. I’m just wondering if any of you have had success, have some words of wisdom. I’m expecting a call from my doctor in the morning regarding this and I know she won’t be pleased that I weaned myself off. If I must take something and hormoes are no longer an option then there’s got to be something with more tolerable side effects. Doesn’t there??? Thanks! kath

Response:

Subject: antidepressants, irritability, time for a change From: "FEARLESS LEADER" bkn…@comcast.net Date: 9/1/04 7:58 PM Pacific Daylight Time Message-id: <-_KdnRQJBt4wEavcRVn…@comcast.com Is anyone having luck with antidepressants?

In my case, an unqualified yes. I am on Effexor XR 150 MG daily. This was in conjunction with weekly therapy. I am now being monitored by my physician for any side effects. None have shown up. Well, it is the case that Effexor, like many other antidepressants, has the ability to reduce male libido. Fortunately, this is not a concern for me <G

.

A much more serious problem for some people (but not me) is that Effexor is made by the same Evil Conglomerate that makes (horrors!) Premarin. But in any case, the sense of hopelessness that the chronic depression caused me HAS been lifted. My therapist insisted over and over again that the purpose of the antidepressant was not so much to make me feel better, as to make me feel normal. Reply to HarryAndruschak AT aol DOT com Solitary Pagan, and Cat-Daddy to  ^..^ Czarina, Max, Fluffy, and Silver ^..^ Waiting at the Rainbow Bridge: Tyler, Pearly, and Conway <Because Nice Matters

.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -FEARLESS LEADER wrote:

Is anyone having luck with antidepressants? I have taken a ‘vacation’ from Zoloft for a good 2 months and what a blessed relief! I sleep thru the night! (ok, unless it’s a super soaker night) I have occasional interest in sex! I can make it thru a day without diarrhea! But as the days are getting noticably shorter and the hormonal thing gets more intense, it’s obvious I need to start back again. But the side effects are unacceptable, just as they were on Prozac. Yes, I know we all respond differently. I’m just wondering if any of you have had success, have some words of wisdom. I’m expecting a call from my doctor in the morning regarding this and I know she won’t be pleased that I weaned myself off. If I must take something and hormoes are no longer an option then there’s got to be something with more tolerable side effects. Doesn’t there??? Thanks! kath

You mention the days getting shorter… have you considered increasing your exposure to sunlight or bright light during the daytime hours? Might you have "seasonal affective disorder"? FurPaw — "Like the reason a dog Has so many friends He wags his tail Instead of his tongue" – Aerosmith To reply, unleash the dog

Response:

Question:

Well, I took Lexapro at 7 PM last night and I am feeling incapacitated with drowsiness right now. This is not good ! I am starting to lose my patience with this med.  It’s been a good 10 days of incapacitating drowsiness. Why bother taking a med at all if it’s going to incapacitate me ? I left a voice mail with my pdoc.  I’ll have to wait to see what he thinks. I’m ready to axe this med and either go back to Zoloft at 100 mg or try something else. Does anybody have a recommendation for an SSRI or AD that relieves anxiety and depression without turning me into a sleepwalker ? Thanks, Tony — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, I took Lexapro at 7 PM last night and I am feeling incapacitated with drowsiness right now. This is not good ! I am starting to lose my patience with this med.  It’s been a good 10 days of incapacitating drowsiness. Why bother taking a med at all if it’s going to incapacitate me ? I left a voice mail with my pdoc.  I’ll have to wait to see what he thinks. I’m ready to axe this med and either go back to Zoloft at 100 mg or try something else. Does anybody have a recommendation for an SSRI or AD that relieves anxiety and depression without turning me into a sleepwalker ? Thanks, Tony

Hello Tony,this med doesn’t seem fit for you. I think you will have to wait for your p-doc to call back. I don’t know enough to suggest any meds to you. I am really sorry you have to go through this Tony Hang in there ! Your frien Anna — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, I took Lexapro at 7 PM last night and I am feeling incapacitated with drowsiness right now. This is not good ! I am starting to lose my patience with this med.  It’s been a good 10 days of incapacitating drowsiness. Why bother taking a med at all if it’s going to incapacitate me ? I left a voice mail with my pdoc.  I’ll have to wait to see what he thinks. I’m ready to axe this med and either go back to Zoloft at 100 mg or try something else. Does anybody have a recommendation for an SSRI or AD that relieves anxiety and depression without turning me into a sleepwalker ? Thanks, Tony

Prozac, Effexor, Elavil. YMMV. Philip — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

This med is probably not the one for you.  Sounds like it is shutting down the wrong things and just making you drowsy.  (((Tony))) Take care, Liz – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, I took Lexapro at 7 PM last night and I am feeling incapacitated with drowsiness right now. This is not good ! I am starting to lose my patience with this med.  It’s been a good 10 days of incapacitating drowsiness. Why bother taking a med at all if it’s going to incapacitate me ? I left a voice mail with my pdoc.  I’ll have to wait to see what he thinks. I’m ready to axe this med and either go back to Zoloft at 100 mg or try something else. Does anybody have a recommendation for an SSRI or AD that relieves anxiety and depression without turning me into a sleepwalker ? Thanks, Tony

– The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Question:

Hello all, I am an OCD sufferer for two+ decades and have had mixed benefits with non SSRI meds and behavioral therapy.  My question to all of you is what SSRI meds have you tried as I am considering them. What has worked for the OCD and depression and what side effects have you experienced? I understand that SSRIs work differently for each person but I am trying for a general consensus. Please include any commentary on Luvox(Fluvoxamine), Prozac (Fluvoxatine), Paxil(paroxetine), Celexa(citalopram), Zoloft(sertraline) and/or any I have missed Thank you very much for your response!  If you wish to respond personally please e-mail loafofspam@(remove-this)aol.com Brett

Response:

Zoloft – ok I’ll do this in a sorta survey form style to make it easier for you. dosage – optimum dosage when ocd was at worst – 75mg, now it has subsided – 25mg is enough. effects – great, really relieved anxiety and I managed to beat my rituals and a lot of my thoughts permanently whilst on it. side effects – grinding teeth, sleepiness, bad dreams, sweating, weight loss and loss of appetite – but they all faded within a few months. additional problems – coming off it was hard – tremors and stuff but I got there eventually…took a quite a few weeks. Overall I think it’s been a great med for me! ~Am~ xxx Gentility <loafofs…@aol.com

wrote in message

news:u07jjodequ7cd7@corp.supernews.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Hello all, I am an OCD sufferer for two+ decades and have had mixed benefits with non SSRI meds and behavioral therapy.  My question to all of you is what SSRI meds have you tried as I am considering them. What has worked for the OCD and depression and what side effects have you experienced? I understand that SSRIs work differently for each person but I am trying

for

a general consensus. Please include any commentary on Luvox(Fluvoxamine), Prozac (Fluvoxatine), Paxil(paroxetine), Celexa(citalopram), Zoloft(sertraline) and/or any I

have

missed Thank you very much for your response!  If you wish to respond personally please e-mail loafofspam@(remove-this)aol.com Brett

Response:

On Tue, 27 Nov 2001 12:34:15 -0500, "Gentility" <loafofs…@aol.com

wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Hello all, I am an OCD sufferer for two+ decades and have had mixed benefits with non SSRI meds and behavioral therapy.  My question to all of you is what SSRI meds have you tried as I am considering them. What has worked for the OCD and depression and what side effects have you experienced? I understand that SSRIs work differently for each person but I am trying for a general consensus. Please include any commentary on Luvox(Fluvoxamine), Prozac (Fluvoxatine), Paxil(paroxetine), Celexa(citalopram), Zoloft(sertraline) and/or any I have missed Thank you very much for your response!  If you wish to respond personally please e-mail loafofspam@(remove-this)aol.com Brett

I’ve been dealing with my OCD for 32 years with mixed results. It’s waxed and waned over the years. A year and a half ago my Dr. put me on Paxil and it has worked wonderfully, both on the OCD and on my anxiety and depression. I seem to be doing well on 20 mg, so no change in dosage is anticipated. The effects of Paxil on the OCD may be somewhat less than on the anxiety and depression, but it makes handling the OCD far easier without them. I had the usual side effects for a couple of weeks – fatigue, shakiness, feeling really spacy – which disappeared after a few weeks. Now I just have a bit of fatigue, but an acceptable level. When I went off it once I weaned off it with only some minor discomfort. I’m back on it now, and glad to be. Idj (back to lurking)

Response:

Hello… Paxil has worked wonders for me, although it has made me gain some weight steadily over a couple of years. But the only side effect I really notice is sexual disfunction (lack of interest, etc.). Luvox was horrible for me, I slept 18+ hours a day, felt horrible, etc. But everything is different for everyone. I’d also recommend anti-psychotics, such as Risperdal or Zyprexa. Both worked great for my obsessive thoughts. Shana shaynuh…@aol.com Visit the web site created for alt.support.ocd! http://members.aol.com/shaynuh512/page1.html I’m so sick of this roller coaster ride…I want my ticket back!!!

Response:

Question:

Dave, I have never posted to a newsgroup before therefore don’t know how to add the relevant pieces of messages from previous posts but I feel I have very important information which will be helpful to some of your group. I live in the uk and I’m registered disabled due to (hereditary) deafness in both ears and wear hearing aids in both ears. I also have tinnitus although I don’t find it a major problem. My sister suffers from tinnitus and finds that there are certain noises which trigger an episode. She especially found it difficult when trying to get to sleep. Her doctor advised her of certain things to try. I  gave her the address of the (RNID) Royal National Institute for the Deaf which no-one else has ever mentioned to her (she’s not deaf and only hard of hearing if you ask her to PAY for something BUT she could hear a

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – x-no-archive: yes the pdoc decided not to hospitalize me, as the suicidal impulses have passed for now. instead, she increased my zoloft dose again, renewed my klonny prescription and added trazodone for sleep. hopefully this will help me get eight *consecutive* hours of sleep a night. and i have to go back and see her next week. she also got me set up with a counselor who specializes in self-esteem issues, and my first appointment is February 23rd. if the trazodone doesn’t work, she’ll refer me to the sleep disorder clinic, and i will be spending a few nights there in order for them to find out why i wake up after three hours. thanks, everyone who wished me well. i appreciate it more than i can say. SK SK, I’m on the exact same meds. Took up to three dosage increases to find the right combination for me. 200mg of Zoloft in the morning, along with .05 Klonny; another Klonny around 11:00AM, and a third one around 4:30.  Then, 100mg of Trazadone about an hour before I’m ready to go to sleep. Getting a full night’s sleep was never a problem after my original Traz dose of 50mg was increased to 100mg. Frank i could use a full night’s sleep myself.  what is the klonny like? diana

Diana, Well, the Trazadone is for sleep.  The Klonny is an anti-anxiety med. I find it takes the edge off things, if that makes any sense. I like it, myself. Doesn’t make me tired, or any other side effects; it helps make things tolerable that might otherwise get me frazzled. Frank

Response:

just a quick note on the sleepins meds trazadone always left me doped up the next day i’m on Sonata now, can be taken when you wake up in the middle of the night…just need 4 hrs to be able sleep afterwards i do know meds are very indivual, just thought i’d bring it up

Response:

i’m glad you’re safe, Sunkitty.   hugs, Timmy

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – x-no-archive: yes the pdoc decided not to hospitalize me, as the suicidal impulses have passed for now. instead, she increased my zoloft dose again, renewed my klonny prescription and added trazodone for sleep. hopefully this will help me get eight *consecutive* hours of sleep a night. and i have to go back and see her next week. she also got me set up with a counselor who specializes in self-esteem issues, and my first appointment is February 23rd. if the trazodone doesn’t work, she’ll refer me to the sleep disorder clinic, and i will be spending a few nights there in order for them to find out why i wake up after three hours. thanks, everyone who wished me well. i appreciate it more than i can say. SK SK, I’m on the exact same meds. Took up to three dosage increases to find the right combination for me. 200mg of Zoloft in the morning, along with .05 Klonny; another Klonny around 11:00AM, and a third one around 4:30.  Then, 100mg of Trazadone about an hour before I’m ready to go to sleep. Getting a full night’s sleep was never a problem after my original Traz dose of 50mg was increased to 100mg. Frank

i could use a full night’s sleep myself.  what is the klonny like? diana

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – x-no-archive: yes the pdoc decided not to hospitalize me, as the suicidal impulses have passed for now. instead, she increased my zoloft dose again, renewed my klonny prescription and added trazodone for sleep. hopefully this will help me get eight *consecutive* hours of sleep a night. and i have to go back and see her next week. she also got me set up with a counselor who specializes in self-esteem issues, and my first appointment is February 23rd. if the trazodone doesn’t work, she’ll refer me to the sleep disorder clinic, and i will be spending a few nights there in order for them to find out why i wake up after three hours. thanks, everyone who wished me well. i appreciate it more than i can say. SK

SK, I’m on the exact same meds. Took up to three dosage increases to find the right combination for me. 200mg of Zoloft in the morning, along with .05 Klonny; another Klonny around 11:00AM, and a third one around 4:30.  Then, 100mg of Trazadone about an hour before I’m ready to go to sleep. Getting a full night’s sleep was never a problem after my original Traz dose of 50mg was increased to 100mg. Frank

Response:

Fingers crossed for you!!!!!  =^..^=

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – x-no-archive: yes the pdoc decided not to hospitalize me, as the suicidal impulses have passed for now. instead, she increased my zoloft dose again, renewed my klonny prescription and added trazodone for sleep. hopefully this will help me get eight *consecutive* hours of sleep a night. and i have to go back and see her next week. she also got me set up with a counselor who specializes in self-esteem issues, and my first appointment is February 23rd. if the trazodone doesn’t work, she’ll refer me to the sleep disorder clinic, and i will be spending a few nights there in order for them to find out why i wake up after three hours. thanks, everyone who wished me well. i appreciate it more than i can say. SK x-no-archive is in headers; please respect it. thanks MSN: SunKitten — ICQ: 92790525

Response:

Question:

Since I’ve been reading this forum and posting and everyone else is re-introducing themselves, I thought I’d be a good sport and join in. 8+) Lorraine, mom, twelve year old son with learning disabilities, worked myself silly and to the point of exhaustion and had a mini-breakdown six months ago.  Until that point I hadn’t seen a doctor in ten years (scared of docs), at first diagnosed with asthma, treated for that, then when many things were not improving treated for depression and panic/anxiety. After taking a couple of months off work to get myself straightened out, my boss was nice enough to hire me back part-time during the day shift (I had previously worked graveyard shift) and we have slowly built up my hours working up to thirty per week.  Some of my more recent accomplishments…started driving on the interstate again this week and I went to an art gallery during a big crowded event. My current meds include Zoloft for anxiety/depression, Vanceril and Albuterol for asthma.  Well, I hope this explains myself a little bit, and I’ll try to come to this group when I have time and hopefully eventually I’ll have progressed enough to be as much as a help to other people as reading the posts in here has been for me. (How’s that for a run-on sentence LOL). ~Lorraine~ Before you buy.

Response:

(How’s that for a run-on sentence

stick around you haven’t seen real run on sentences yet. LM

Response:

Lorraine, LM isn’t kidding! Lorri "it’s not my fault, it’s yours" (How’s that for a run-on sentence stick around you haven’t seen real run on sentences yet. LM

Lorri http://hometown.aol.com/lorr1/myhomepage5indexhtlm.html http://hometown.aol.com/lorr1/myhomepage4index.html

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Since I’ve been reading this forum and posting and everyone else is re-introducing themselves, I thought I’d be a good sport and join in. 8+) Lorraine, mom, twelve year old son with learning disabilities, worked myself silly and to the point of exhaustion and had a mini-breakdown six months ago. Until that point I hadn’t seen a doctor in ten years (scared of docs), at first diagnosed with asthma, treated for that, then when many things were not improving treated for depression and panic/anxiety. After taking a couple of months off work to get myself straightened out, my boss was nice enough to hire me back part-time during the day shift (I had previously worked graveyard shift) and we have slowly built up my hours working up to thirty per week.  Some of my more recent accomplishments…started driving on the interstate again this week and I went to an art gallery during a big crowded event. My current meds include Zoloft for anxiety/depression, Vanceril and Albuterol for asthma.  Well, I hope this explains myself a little bit, and I’ll try to come to this group when I have time and hopefully eventually I’ll have progressed enough to be as much as a help to other people as reading the posts in here has been for me. (How’s that for a run-on sentence LOL). ~Lorraine~

Hi Lorraine! It sounds to me like you have made progress.  Good for you! Hugs, Di

Response:

Question:

ENOUGH WITH THE DAMN ACCESS DEBATE THREADS! Living in the UK, I frequently unsubscribe from rec.boats.paddle because there’s too much which isn’t relevant to the UK paddler.   When I resubscribe (as I did last month), I’m always delighted when I find that Scott Weiser is still winding up paddlers, especially in the US. Best wishes

What a compliment.  Many thanks…. Regards, Scott Weiser ****** "I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend upon my friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" ****** http://www.dimensional.com/~weiser/ Copyright 1998 by Scott Weiser Under the UCC, by the act of transmitting any commercial e-mail advertisment to this address, you are expressly contracting with me in my professional capacity for a consultation on the ad’s effectiveness and you expressly agree to pay to me the sum of $250.00 for each such consultation within 10 days of my report to the original sending address.  You further expressly agree that all actions for recovery of fees owed shall be subject solely to the laws of the State of Colorado, which shall have sole jurisdiction.

Response:

ENOUGH WITH THE DAMN ACCESS DEBATE THREADS!

Living in the UK, I frequently unsubscribe from rec.boats.paddle because there’s too much which isn’t relevant to the UK paddler.   When I resubscribe (as I did last month), I’m always delighted when I find that Scott Weiser is still winding up paddlers, especially in the US. Best wishes Keith — |/| |_  |_) |_) /    /   canoeing instead of climbing when I |  | |__ | | /    __/  realised I could swim but not fly!"

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It’s all well and good to say that you, one individual boater, does no identifiable harm, but this ignores the impacts of scale, and when a hundred, or a thousand, or ten thousand boaters use the area, the cumulative impacts become significant.  Just look at the Grand Canyon. yes – and that’s why most public lands that incur use impacts are placed in management plans. These plans seek to find the right balance – though I’ll admit it can be arbitrary – especially when it comes to mulltiple-use determinations. It’s a delicate balance of the two, but remember that preserving to pass stewardship on does *not* necessarily mean passing it to the public who want to use the land for recreation. indeed. the ‘public’ is the government. All land public or private is regulation by Federal, State, and local laws that prevent land-owners from using their land when the impacts of such use affect the public. If you don’t believe this.. try something like a 1000 head feed-lot on your property… or placer mining… or eve condos… none of these will you do without a ‘permit’ and the government decides on behalf of the public if your proposal is ‘in the public interest’. Some folks of late consider these ‘takings’ but underlying ‘public interest’ concept is intact.

This is true, and I’ve never denied the validity of properly constructed land-use law, but *restricting* a property owner’s use to protect the health, welfare and safety of the public is substantially different from *appropriating* his property for the use of the public. But this is true ONLY IF the 100 cattle *do* damage the riverbank. Such impacts are not really comparative in nature.  Negative impacts cause by paddlers are not "better", or "less negative" impacts simply because they are caused by a paddler instead of a cow, they stand on their own, and when those impacts are unnecessary to begin with, they are that much more improper. hmmm.. they *are* comparative in terms of impacts… whether it is recreation, farming, mining.. all of these distill down to impacts that can be quantified in terms of water quality, habitat destruction, etc.  

Yes, but an unnecessary impact is an unnecessary impact, no matter how small it may be. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Cattle may cause negative impacts, which can be mitigated by proper management practices, but cattle are *necessary* impacts in most cases, because they are what pay the taxes and create the profits that are used to continue to preserve the area.   It’s all well and good to say "cattle-free in 2003" or whatever (though this mostly applies to federal lands) but the bills have to get paid somehow.     I suppose when paddlers fork over the thousands of dollars a year to pay the taxes and maintain the property, then I’ll consider allowing them to trespass.   Until then, their impacts, however slight, are *not necessary* to the preservation of the resource, and therefore they are justifiably banned. "can be mitigated by proper management practices" leaves it up to the landowner whoever that happens to be at a given time. this does not work when money is involved. Many landowners justify the destruction of the land they own for ‘economic benefits’. You are not unilaterally entitled to un-regulated economic activity just because you own the land. Your activity has to be compatible with the ‘public interest’ as there is hardly anything (economic)  you can do on your property that won’t ultimately affect the public. There are thousands and thousands of local, state, federal laws that restrict you every which way from Sunday. You may consider recreation not necessary – the public may think otherwise – the same goes for what you think is ‘necessary’. If you public disagrees with you then you may be restricted.

Absolutely correct, but the fact that the government may regulate my activities in the public interest has no nexus to my ability to regulate YOUR activities on my land.  As we have seen, even the government recognizes the impacts of recreationalists on public waters and has chosen to regulate them as well.  I’m not sure what your point is. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  I’am also amused by the ’scaring the wildlife’ argument – somewhat because there may be a ‘hint’ of truth for some species but how many species in the last few decades have been not only ’scared’ but just plain wiped-out because the habitat they lived on was used by the landowner for ‘other purposes’? Again, you are comparing apples and oranges.  The fact that species and habitat may have been impacted by landowners is a broad generalization and an irrelevant comparison.   In my case this is not the case, as is true in many other places, and you cannot claim that your impacts are legitimate merely because other impacts occur. Your impacts stand alone, on their own merits, and you are not excused by the bad behavior of others.   Using your logic, you should be able to toss beer cans on the bank, leave rubbish around and cut down trees for firewood just because somebody else does so somewhere else. That’s fallacious logic at best. I follow the consistency argument and agree but behavior is governed by law whether it occurs on private or public property – though different laws may apply depending on the behavior – for instance some usually can be arrested for ’speeding on your property’ because the law does not apply to private property.

I don’t understand.  You seem to be contradicting yourself. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If the ’scaring the wildlife’ arugment were true then most of the official ‘wild & scenic’ rivers in this nation – which are heavily travelled by recreation paddlers – would be completely devoid of wildlife. The reverse is true – once the land is dedicated by recreational use ONLY – the wildlife return and thrive.. and with the exception of certain ’shy’ species become confortable with humans – especially if they are not shooting them. It’s not the presence of the human itself that disturbs most animals – it is WHAT the human is doing and animals *know* that there is risk is hanging around. This is simply not true.  No one said that the riparian zone would become ‘devoid’ of life, and while wildlife may become habituated to some degree, the stresses of human intrusion *remain* to negatively affect populations and vigor.   And that wildlife you may see, which may be habituated, ignores those "shy" species, which are in the majority, which may indeed leave the area altogether, or may simply begin a gradual decline. Our federal lands are managed for *multiple* use with the recognition that humans *will* have impacts, and those impacts are balanced against the benefits which accrue to the public.  Factually, from a political point of view, it would be highly desireable to simply forbid human access to *most* wilderness areas in order to preserve the habitat, but it’s politically impossible to do so, so we instead try to mitigate the impacts we do have.  That’s why permit systems are cropping up on more and more rivers.  The impacts of scale have become clear and limitations are required to preserve the resource. Indeed – with respect to ‘wilderness designation’, it’s not the paddlers or recreation folks or environmentalists that are fighting it.. it’s the folks that want to build roads and use motors. Impacts from recreation are easily mitigated.. you employ a permit system and if an area has eagle nests.. then you close it off entirely. The right fringe/landowner rights movement is trying to strike down all of these laws.. they want it all wide open … so that power boats, ski doos, etc can you AND the impacts ARE comparative. 100 canoes CAN and ARE compared to 100 ski-doos. One single four-wheel drive can severly damage a trail… and it has become recognized that hikers can do but it’ll take a 1000 of them… so you permit the use.. no 4-wheel and only 10 hikers per day.. etc etc

True, but largely irrelevant.  You do prove my point however that mitigating and preventing impacts is a legitimate method of preserving the resource. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The ‘difficulty’ is that if Colorado actually did what you suggest – that there would be a firestorm and the arugment would be over with very quickly. You would lose big time. Very significant tourism and the public’s perception of being ‘welcome’ are involved. No sane public official would even consider it.. that’ why they’re content to let it be the way it is. Public officials don’t make the decisions, wrong… if the public doesn’t like the court decision they’ll change the law. The ‘law’ is determined by the legislature which consists of publically-elected officials. the Courts do.   No amount of feverish desire in pursuit of the almighty dollar can prevent me, or someone else from filing a suit in court claiming an improper taking of private property for public use without just compensation. That’s the purpose of the Constitution, to prevent the tyranny of the majority and the infringements of the rights of the individual by the public. yep…but even the constition can be ammended if the people want it.

True, and when you succeed in repealing the Fifth Amendment, get back to me. While you are technically correct, you must recognize that private property ownership and the prohibitions against the government exproprating property without compensation are one of the core beliefs of our nation, and it’s simply not credible that the vast majority of the public, *who are property owners*, will tear up the Constitution simply to suit a *small number* of boating recreationists who aren’t satisfied with the public … read more »

Response:

 It’s all well and good to say that you, one individual boater, does no identifiable harm, but this ignores the impacts of scale, and when a hundred, or a thousand, or ten thousand boaters use the area, the cumulative impacts become significant.  Just look at the Grand Canyon.

yes – and that’s why most public lands that incur use impacts are placed in management plans. These plans seek to find the right balance – though I’ll admit it can be arbitrary – especially when it comes to mulltiple-use determinations. It’s a delicate balance of the two, but remember that preserving to pass stewardship on does *not* necessarily mean passing it to the public who want to use the land for recreation.

indeed. the ‘public’ is the government. All land public or private is regulation by Federal, State, and local laws that prevent land-owners from using their land when the impacts of such use affect the public. If you don’t believe this.. try something like a 1000 head feed-lot on your property… or placer mining… or eve condos… none of these will you do without a ‘permit’ and the government decides on behalf of the public if your proposal is ‘in the public interest’. Some folks of late consider these ‘takings’ but underlying ‘public interest’ concept is intact. But this is true ONLY IF the 100 cattle *do* damage the riverbank. Such impacts are not really comparative in nature.  Negative impacts cause by paddlers are not "better", or "less negative" impacts simply because they are caused by a paddler instead of a cow, they stand on their own, and when those impacts are unnecessary to begin with, they are that much more improper.

 hmmm.. they *are* comparative in terms of impacts… whether it is recreation, farming, mining.. all of these distill down to impacts that can be quantified in terms of water quality, habitat destruction, etc.   Cattle may cause negative impacts, which can be mitigated by proper management practices, but cattle are *necessary* impacts in most cases, because they are what pay the taxes and create the profits that are used to continue to preserve the area.   It’s all well and good to say "cattle-free in 2003" or whatever (though this mostly applies to federal lands) but the bills have to get paid somehow.     I suppose when paddlers fork over the thousands of dollars a year to pay the taxes and maintain the property, then I’ll consider allowing them to trespass.   Until then, their impacts, however slight, are *not necessary* to the preservation of the resource, and therefore they are justifiably banned.

"can be mitigated by proper management practices" leaves it up to the landowner whoever that happens to be at a given time. this does not work when money is involved. Many landowners justify the destruction of the land they own for ‘economic benefits’. You are not unilaterally entitled to un-regulated economic activity just because you own the land. Your activity has to be compatible with the ‘public interest’ as there is hardly anything (economic)  you can do on your property that won’t ultimately affect the public. There are thousands and thousands of local, state, federal laws that restrict you every which way from Sunday. You may consider recreation not necessary – the public may think otherwise – the same goes for what you think is ‘necessary’. If you public disagrees with you then you may be restricted. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  I’am also amused by the ’scaring the wildlife’ argument – somewhat because there may be a ‘hint’ of truth for some species but how many species in the last few decades have been not only ’scared’ but just plain wiped-out because the habitat they lived on was used by the landowner for ‘other purposes’? Again, you are comparing apples and oranges.  The fact that species and habitat may have been impacted by landowners is a broad generalization and an irrelevant comparison.   In my case this is not the case, as is true in many other places, and you cannot claim that your impacts are legitimate merely because other impacts occur. Your impacts stand alone, on their own merits, and you are not excused by the bad behavior of others.   Using your logic, you should be able to toss beer cans on the bank, leave rubbish around and cut down trees for firewood just because somebody else does so somewhere else. That’s fallacious logic at best.

I follow the consistency argument and agree but behavior is governed by law whether it occurs on private or public property – though different laws may apply depending on the behavior – for instance some usually can be arrested for ’speeding on your property’ because the law does not apply to private property. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If the ’scaring the wildlife’ arugment were true then most of the official ‘wild & scenic’ rivers in this nation – which are heavily travelled by recreation paddlers – would be completely devoid of wildlife. The reverse is true – once the land is dedicated by recreational use ONLY – the wildlife return and thrive.. and with the exception of certain ’shy’ species become confortable with humans – especially if they are not shooting them. It’s not the presence of the human itself that disturbs most animals – it is WHAT the human is doing and animals *know* that there is risk is hanging around. This is simply not true.  No one said that the riparian zone would become ‘devoid’ of life, and while wildlife may become habituated to some degree, the stresses of human intrusion *remain* to negatively affect populations and vigor.   And that wildlife you may see, which may be habituated, ignores those "shy" species, which are in the majority, which may indeed leave the area altogether, or may simply begin a gradual decline. Our federal lands are managed for *multiple* use with the recognition that humans *will* have impacts, and those impacts are balanced against the benefits which accrue to the public.  Factually, from a political point of view, it would be highly desireable to simply forbid human access to *most* wilderness areas in order to preserve the habitat, but it’s politically impossible to do so, so we instead try to mitigate the impacts we do have.  That’s why permit systems are cropping up on more and more rivers.  The impacts of scale have become clear and limitations are required to preserve the resource.

Indeed – with respect to ‘wilderness designation’, it’s not the paddlers or recreation folks or environmentalists that are fighting it.. it’s the folks that want to build roads and use motors. Impacts from recreation are easily mitigated.. you employ a permit system and if an area has eagle nests.. then you close it off entirely. The right fringe/landowner rights movement is trying to strike down all of these laws.. they want it all wide open … so that power boats, ski doos, etc can you AND the impacts ARE comparative. 100 canoes CAN and ARE compared to 100 ski-doos. One single four-wheel drive can severly damage a trail… and it has become recognized that hikers can do but it’ll take a 1000 of them… so you permit the use.. no 4-wheel and only 10 hikers per day.. etc etc The ‘difficulty’ is that if Colorado actually did what you suggest – that there would be a firestorm and the arugment would be over with very quickly. You would lose big time. Very significant tourism and the public’s perception of being ‘welcome’ are involved. No sane public official would even consider it.. that’ why they’re content to let it be the way it is. Public officials don’t make the decisions,

wrong… if the public doesn’t like the court decision they’ll change the law. The ‘law’ is determined by the legislature which consists of publically-elected officials. the Courts do.   No amount of feverish desire in pursuit of the almighty dollar can prevent me, or someone else from filing a suit in court claiming an improper taking of private property for public use without just compensation. That’s the purpose of the Constitution, to prevent the tyranny of the majority and the infringements of the rights of the individual by the public.

 yep…but even the constition can be ammended if the people want it. If I were to do as I suggest, *something* would happen, either the trespassers would be arrested, or *I* would be arrested for "illegally" preventing them from trespassing, or they would file a suit, or I would.  And as soon as the matter comes to court, the LAW rules, and I am quite confident in the strength of my legal case.

Like I said… if the law in Colorado was rigidly enforced along the lines that you suggest… and paddlers were kicked off of the major streams.. you could expect the law to change – regardless of how the courts feel. When you have a law like they have in Colorado and it’s not enforced.. there is a message in it. Federal Laws can force changes in Colorado law also – and do all the time. In the end… in a democracy… "rights" are decided by the people. You have no "right" to economic activity or even landowner rights if the public that votes disagrees with you. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Regards, Scott Weiser ****** "I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend upon my friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" ****** http://www.dimensional.com/~weiser/ Copyright 1998 by Scott Weiser Under the UCC, by the act of transmitting any commercial e-mail advertisment to this address, you are expressly contracting with me in my professional capacity for a consultation on the ad’s effectiveness and you expressly agree to pay to me the sum of $250.00 for each such consultation within 10 days of my report to the original sending address.  You further expressly agree that all actions for recovery of fees owed shall be subject solely to the laws of the State of Colorado, which shall have sole

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Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Correct, and the point is that *somebody* just might own such places, and you could lose the access in a heartbeat due to the malefactions of one or two individual paddlers. yep – actually this is more common that most folks either know or will admit. In Virginia – The Cowpasture River ( not great whitewater but a really beautify mountain river) is essentially off-limits. Others include Back Creek and the Jackson. Had a little old lady point a long-barreled 45 at our group on the Bullpasture. She wanted us off of "her damned land" NOW! People have been arrested in the past and many others are "warned" by local landowners before they even put in. Interestingly, we *used* to be able to get permission from the landowner group for a number of years and then suddenly we were refused. Not because we had done anything wrong – we ALWAYS sought permission and ALWAYS were polite –  but because 1 landowner out of dozens didn’t want ANYBODY and didn’t care whether they were polite or respectful or anything else. End of story. All of years of carefully trying to not step on anyones toes went for naught. Um….I think this qualifies as a "broad generalization" of the type which Richard was objecting to when applied to paddlers, so I guess I have to object to it when applied to "landowners".   After all, my purpose is not to develop or destroy the resource, it’s to protect it from the damage caused by public use. yep, i erred in the generalization. there is a link however. I don’t buy your ‘protection’ argument. I’ve paddled hundreds of rivers in 30 years of boating and damage, if any, is miniscule compared to cattle, 4 wheelers, local trash dumps, roadside dumps, fishermen – believe it of not!, logging, farming, and industry.

This may be true elsewhere, but the fact that others may cause more damage does not reduce the impacts which boaters cause, and since whatever those impacts are are unnecessary, it’s perfectly proper to prevent them. Actually, of late, many rivers have been saved from damage by pointing out that they are used significantly for recreation. also interesting is that once a River becomes officially protected and becomes a destination for paddlers – the localities reap economic benefit AND the river then becomes essentially off-limits to single-minded proposals that *would* damage it.

If economic benefits were the only criteria perhaps this would be valid.   You do make a valid point that public awareness of the particular value of a particular river can be helpful in protecting the resource, but far too often the negative impacts of public access do more harm than good.   It’s all well and good to say that you, one individual boater, does no identifiable harm, but this ignores the impacts of scale, and when a hundred, or a thousand, or ten thousand boaters use the area, the cumulative impacts become significant.  Just look at the Grand Canyon. It’s a delicate balance of the two, but remember that preserving to pass stewardship on does *not* necessarily mean passing it to the public who want to use the land for recreation. I don’t think it is a ‘delicate balance’ at all. In most cases, it is fairly clear what the landowners intentions are.. you can see it in the way they take care of ( or not ) the land. Recreation does not harm the land on near the same scale as say cattle. A hundred cattle can totally ruin a river bank and turn a clean stream into a mess. A 100 paddlers – even if they all urinated in unison wouldn’t even come close.

But this is true ONLY IF the 100 cattle *do* damage the riverbank. Such impacts are not really comparative in nature.  Negative impacts cause by paddlers are not "better", or "less negative" impacts simply because they are caused by a paddler instead of a cow, they stand on their own, and when those impacts are unnecessary to begin with, they are that much more improper.   Cattle may cause negative impacts, which can be mitigated by proper management practices, but cattle are *necessary* impacts in most cases, because they are what pay the taxes and create the profits that are used to continue to preserve the area.   It’s all well and good to say "cattle-free in 2003" or whatever (though this mostly applies to federal lands) but the bills have to get paid somehow.     I suppose when paddlers fork over the thousands of dollars a year to pay the taxes and maintain the property, then I’ll consider allowing them to trespass.   Until then, their impacts, however slight, are *not necessary* to the preservation of the resource, and therefore they are justifiably banned.  I’am also amused by the ’scaring the wildlife’ argument – somewhat because there may be a ‘hint’ of truth for some species but how many species in the last few decades have been not only ’scared’ but just plain wiped-out because the habitat they lived on was used by the landowner for ‘other purposes’?

Again, you are comparing apples and oranges.  The fact that species and habitat may have been impacted by landowners is a broad generalization and an irrelevant comparison.   In my case this is not the case, as is true in many other places, and you cannot claim that your impacts are legitimate merely because other impacts occur. Your impacts stand alone, on their own merits, and you are not excused by the bad behavior of others.   Using your logic, you should be able to toss beer cans on the bank, leave rubbish around and cut down trees for firewood just because somebody else does so somewhere else. That’s fallacious logic at best. If the ’scaring the wildlife’ arugment were true then most of the official ‘wild & scenic’ rivers in this nation – which are heavily travelled by recreation paddlers – would be completely devoid of wildlife. The reverse is true – once the land is dedicated by recreational use ONLY – the wildlife return and thrive.. and with the exception of certain ’shy’ species become confortable with humans – especially if they are not shooting them. It’s not the presence of the human itself that disturbs most animals – it is WHAT the human is doing and animals *know* that there is risk is hanging around.

This is simply not true.  No one said that the riparian zone would become ‘devoid’ of life, and while wildlife may become habituated to some degree, the stresses of human intrusion *remain* to negatively affect populations and vigor.   And that wildlife you may see, which may be habituated, ignores those "shy" species, which are in the majority, which may indeed leave the area altogether, or may simply begin a gradual decline. Our federal lands are managed for *multiple* use with the recognition that humans *will* have impacts, and those impacts are balanced against the benefits which accrue to the public.  Factually, from a political point of view, it would be highly desireable to simply forbid human access to *most* wilderness areas in order to preserve the habitat, but it’s politically impossible to do so, so we instead try to mitigate the impacts we do have.  That’s why permit systems are cropping up on more and more rivers.  The impacts of scale have become clear and limitations are required to preserve the resource. Those impacts are just as present on Boulder Creek, though to a lesser degree.   The difficulty is that many jurisdictions are relying upon the  *** snip legal rambling **** Pity I don’t own such a parcel…..I could bring this thing to a head quite quickly…. The ‘difficulty’ is that if Colorado actually did what you suggest – that there would be a firestorm and the arugment would be over with very quickly. You would lose big time. Very significant tourism and the public’s perception of being ‘welcome’ are involved. No sane public official would even consider it.. that’ why they’re content to let it be the way it is.

Public officials don’t make the decisions, the Courts do.   No amount of feverish desire in pursuit of the almighty dollar can prevent me, or someone else from filing a suit in court claiming an improper taking of private property for public use without just compensation. That’s the purpose of the Constitution, to prevent the tyranny of the majority and the infringements of the rights of the individual by the public. If I were to do as I suggest, *something* would happen, either the trespassers would be arrested, or *I* would be arrested for "illegally" preventing them from trespassing, or they would file a suit, or I would.  And as soon as the matter comes to court, the LAW rules, and I am quite confident in the strength of my legal case. Regards, Scott Weiser ****** "I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend upon my friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" ****** http://www.dimensional.com/~weiser/ Copyright 1998 by Scott Weiser Under the UCC, by the act of transmitting any commercial e-mail advertisment to this address, you are expressly contracting with me in my professional capacity for a consultation on the ad’s effectiveness and you expressly agree to pay to me the sum of $250.00 for each such consultation within 10 days of my report to the original sending address.  You further expressly agree that all actions for recovery of fees owed shall be subject solely to the laws of the State of Colorado, which shall have sole jurisdiction.

Response:

Correct, and the point is that *somebody* just might own such places, and you could lose the access in a heartbeat due to the malefactions of one or two individual paddlers.

 yep – actually this is more common that most folks either know or will admit. In Virginia – The Cowpasture River ( not great whitewater but a really beautify mountain river) is essentially off-limits. Others include Back Creek and the Jackson. Had a little old lady point a long-barreled 45 at our group on the Bullpasture. She wanted us off of "her damned land" NOW!  People have been arrested in the past and many others are "warned" by local landowners before they even put in. Interestingly, we *used* to be able to get permission from the landowner group for a number of years and then suddenly we were refused. Not because we had done anything wrong – we ALWAYS sought permission and ALWAYS were polite –  but because 1 landowner out of dozens didn’t want ANYBODY and didn’t care whether they were polite or respectful or anything else. End of story. All of years of carefully trying to not step on anyones toes went for naught. Um….I think this qualifies as a "broad generalization" of the type which Richard was objecting to when applied to paddlers, so I guess I have to object to it when applied to "landowners".   After all, my purpose is not to develop or destroy the resource, it’s to protect it from the damage caused by public use.

 yep, i erred in the generalization. there is a link however. I don’t buy your ‘protection’ argument. I’ve paddled hundreds of rivers in 30 years of boating and damage, if any, is miniscule compared to cattle, 4 wheelers, local trash dumps, roadside dumps, fishermen – believe it of not!, logging, farming, and industry. Actually, of late, many rivers have been saved from damage by pointing out that they are used significantly for recreation. also interesting is that once a River becomes officially protected and becomes a destination for paddlers – the localities reap economic benefit AND the river then becomes essentially off-limits to single-minded proposals that *would* damage it. It’s a delicate balance of the two, but remember that preserving to pass stewardship on does *not* necessarily mean passing it to the public who want to use the land for recreation.

I don’t think it is a ‘delicate balance’ at all. In most cases, it is fairly clear what the landowners intentions are.. you can see it in the way they take care of ( or not ) the land. Recreation does not harm the land on near the same scale as say cattle. A hundred cattle can totally ruin a river bank and turn a clean stream into a mess. A 100 paddlers – even if they all urinated in unison wouldn’t even come close.  I’am also amused by the ’scaring the wildlife’ argument – somewhat because there may be a ‘hint’ of truth for some species but how many species in the last few decades have been not only ’scared’ but just plain wiped-out because the habitat they lived on was used by the landowner for ‘other purposes’? If the ’scaring the wildlife’ arugment were true then most of the official ‘wild & scenic’ rivers in this nation – which are heavily travelled by recreation paddlers – would be completely devoid of wildlife. The reverse is true – once the land is dedicated by recreational use ONLY – the wildlife return and thrive.. and with the exception of certain ’shy’ species become confortable with humans – especially if they are not shooting them. It’s not the presence of the human itself that disturbs most animals – it is WHAT the human is doing and animals *know* that there is risk is hanging around. The difficulty is that many jurisdictions are relying upon the

  *** snip legal rambling **** Pity I don’t own such a parcel…..I could bring this thing to a head quite quickly….

 The ‘difficulty’ is that if Colorado actually did what you suggest – that there would be a firestorm and the arugment would be over with very quickly. You would lose big time. Very significant tourism and the public’s perception of being ‘welcome’ are involved. No sane public official would even consider it.. that’ why they’re content to let it be the way it is. Absolutely correct, and only by dialog between landowners and river users can such conflicts be peacefully and properly resolved with benefit to everyone.

I actually agree with the basic premise that no one is guanranteed access to private land because they are engaging in what they perceive as a ‘noble’ activity. Usually, it’s scumballs who cloak themselves with the ‘noble activity’ and then abuse the landowner. We’ve seen it with hunting and to some extent with boating. I’ve always subscribed to the idea that if someone owns the land that *I* need to *ask permission* and if they refuse – they refuse. It is their right. It burns my butt when 99 paddlers are polite and ask permission and then Mr asshole waltz’s in and screws it up for everybody. Folks from the ‘big’ cities are often the worst offenders. For some odd reason, I’ve never been able to understand they think they are ‘entitled’ to treaspass once in the rural landscape. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Regards, Scott Weiser ****** "I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend upon my friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" ****** http://www.dimensional.com/~weiser/ Copyright 1998 by Scott Weiser Under the UCC, by the act of transmitting any commercial e-mail advertisment to this address, you are expressly contracting with me in my professional capacity for a consultation on the ad’s effectiveness and you expressly agree to pay to me the sum of $250.00 for each such consultation within 10 days of my report to the original sending address.  You further expressly agree that all actions for recovery of fees owed shall be subject solely to the laws of the State of Colorado, which shall have sole jurisdiction.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am willing to conceed to Scott that there is a valid interest in these dicussions on this newsgroup, but I do wish I could make the "NOT weiser" boolean search request work on my newsreader client.  The problem I have with these posts is that Scott seems to be preoccupied with preaching legal findings and citing past relevant rulings to paddlers that are responding back with statements like "If I can paddle it, the river is navigable!" and "Just try to stop me!".  Reading these threads is like sitting in a nicely furnished living room watching an acclaimed vet scold his dog by using the following phrase…"Sparky, the reason you should not urinate on the carpet is because the acidic nature of your fluid excrement has an adverse effect on both the optical appearance of this synthetic-based floor covering and also tends to react unpleasantly with the olfactory processes of myself and my house guests. Please, Sparky, give me a reason why I should not confine you to your pre-designated travel container."  Whereas, the more intelligent vet, the person that learns through careful observation would say "Bad Dog, go to your box.", realizing that dogs do not make for good argument.

ROTFLMAO.   What a hoot….I had not thought to compare kayakers to untrainable dogs.   I sort of thought by presenting the evidence in (hopefully) a manner which the average adult could understand, that people would discover the logic involved themselves and make good decisions based upon that knowledge.   I’ve had quite a bit of evidence that this is indeed the case. While you may tire of repetition (as I do), there is a constant stream of people who *don’t* understand and might like to who deserve to be informed of the controversy and the facts surrounding it so that they, too, can make informed decisions. My suggestion is that those who know the material and have made the decision, one way or the other, simply skip the threads altogether and allow those who *are* interested debate the matter with me in peace and quiet.   Unfortunately, those who have seen the material cannot seem to control themselves and insist on insulting me and interrupting valid and interesting conversations among others.  It’s a lot like a high-school student running into a class full of 8th graders and shouting "Hey, teach, shut the **ck up! I’ve heard all this before and you annoy me!" Why can’t those who don’t like the nature of the discussion simply switch off and go for a paddle and leave those who wish to discuss alone? I suspect it’s because such people are violently opposed to my particular argument and see it as dangerous, and decide to do whatever they can to disrupt the flow of information.  It’s a lame attempt at censorship, nothing more, and I’ll tell you here and now it won’t work. I guess what I am trying to say here is that the best communicators are the ones that can tailor a response, argumentative or otherwise, to the intended audience.  Make your point and make it clear.  There is nothing wrong with being a highly intelligent, well versed, individual, but make no mistake…a highly- intelligent, well-versed idiot is still an idiot. Finally, Scott, if you feel the need to reply to this posting, I will assume that you deem me a colleague worth engaging with in meaningful debate.      If your words truly express your feelings about me…

I think you have made a trenchant statement of fact, and I appreciate your candor.  I hope that my reply is likewise informative.  We agree more  than we disagree, but I have a policy about "Shut the **ck UP!" threads, which is that I reply to them with whatever degree of politeness is called for until those posting to the thread….shut the **ck up. Then I return to the adult debates about access issues and the law with those who wish to discuss the issue.  When nobody cares to discuss it anymore, then the thread dies and I retreat to my place under the bridge for a time, until some event stimulates me to begin again, for a new crop of paddlers who may be in need of enlightenment. (Your Previous Posting) <CLIP If you don’t like the course of the conversation, then toddle off and start one of your own instead of sniping at the adults who are having an interesting discussion.   You sound like a three-year-old who’s whining and throwing a temper tantrum because Mommy is ignoring you. <CLIP …then why do you bother post a reply, I personally do not waste my time reasoning with someone that sounded like a spoiled three-year-old.

It’s not for *their* benefit, it’s for the benefit of others, and for my own amusement. If you do repond and I do not, please do not feel bad.  Sometimes I go out and paddle instead of talking about it in this newsgroup.

Good plan. BTW- I apologize for the YELLING in my first post, it was uncalled for.

No problem, I’m a very forgiving kind of guy. Regards, Scott Weiser ****** "I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend upon my friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" ****** http://www.dimensional.com/~weiser/ Copyright 1998 by Scott Weiser Under the UCC, by the act of transmitting any commercial e-mail advertisment to this address, you are expressly contracting with me in my professional capacity for a consultation on the ad’s effectiveness and you expressly agree to pay to me the sum of $250.00 for each such consultation within 10 days of my report to the original sending address.  You further expressly agree that all actions for recovery of fees owed shall be subject solely to the laws of the State of Colorado, which shall have sole jurisdiction.

Response:

Hey, hey. We should be counting our blessings. Suppose Mr. Weiser owned the put-in to the Ocoee or Chatooga?  

Correct, and the point is that *somebody* just might own such places, and you could lose the access in a heartbeat due to the malefactions of one or two individual paddlers. Paddlers need to know about folks like him AND how he thinks. Mr. Weiser is representative of many ‘landowner rights’ advocates some of whom also belong to the ‘Wise Use’ groups. They usually not only want to keep paddlers off the rivers but they want to develop their land in any way they please even if it destroys natural resources.

Um….I think this qualifies as a "broad generalization" of the type which Richard was objecting to when applied to paddlers, so I guess I have to object to it when applied to "landowners".   After all, my purpose is not to develop or destroy the resource, it’s to protect it from the damage caused by public use. Some folks think if they own land that it ‘ALL MINE’ and I can do with it what I want while others see themselves as temporary stewards responsible for passing the land on to others to also will practice stewardship.

It’s a delicate balance of the two, but remember that preserving to pass stewardship on does *not* necessarily mean passing it to the public who want to use the land for recreation. It is a significant movement and unless paddlers and others become involved and pay attention – you’ll see more and more rivers placed off-limits. I’m amazed that if Colorado Law is what Mr. Weiser sez it is that ANY rivers out there can be accessed legally. Something doesn’t fit. I wonder how popular rivers fare on the access issue in that state.

The difficulty is that many jurisdictions are relying upon the Attorney General’s opinion of the effects of changing the definition of "premises", including the state Department of Natural Resources, which leads to inconsistent enforcement of the law and a misunderstanding of the law itself.   The issue is still unresolved because no case has been brought to overturn the AG’s opinion and confirm the Emmert Court’s decision.   I hope it won’t come to that, because such a ruling would *shut down* public recreational use of most of the important recreational waters of the state, including the Number section of the Arkansas, which, while most of it is on BLM or Forest Service land, is criss-crossed by private "inholdings", any one of which could choose at any time to prohibit trespass and thereby destroy the ability to complete the float at all, since there’s no way to egress at the closed properties. This is why I propose a system which allows the state to, in this example, *condemn* a recreational easement if necessary to assure continued access to the entire run.  But the essential part is that the state must *pay for* the access.   After all, commercial whitewater recreation on the Arkansas is a multi-million dollar industry, which makes that easement quite valuable. I’ve suggested before the possibility that a landowner who owns a strip of land under the river somewhere in the middle of the popular section could simply take photos of every commercial raft which passes by in a season, identify the outfitter, count the number of heads and send them a bill at, say, $5.00 a head for a "trespass fee."    I imagine this would get the attention of the recreational community rather quickly. Pity I don’t own such a parcel…..I could bring this thing to a head quite quickly…. The thread has been excellent raising awareness  and I’ll bet more than a few now realize how important it is to contribute/join the AWA who works on behalf paddlers on access issues.

Absolutely correct, and only by dialog between landowners and river users can such conflicts be peacefully and properly resolved with benefit to everyone. Regards, Scott Weiser ****** "I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend upon my friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" ****** http://www.dimensional.com/~weiser/ Copyright 1998 by Scott Weiser Under the UCC, by the act of transmitting any commercial e-mail advertisment to this address, you are expressly contracting with me in my professional capacity for a consultation on the ad’s effectiveness and you expressly agree to pay to me the sum of $250.00 for each such consultation within 10 days of my report to the original sending address.  You further expressly agree that all actions for recovery of fees owed shall be subject solely to the laws of the State of Colorado, which shall have sole jurisdiction.

Response:

Shut Up, Shut up, Shut Up!!! For the love of God people please stop this nonesense. Like everyone else I give a damn but I’m F%#$ing tired of seeing all these lame Wesier posts. Dear lord have mercy on our souls!! T.J.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey, hey. We should be counting our blessings. Suppose Mr. Weiser owned the put-in to the Ocoee or Chatooga? Paddlers need to know about folks like him AND how he thinks. Mr. Weiser is representative of many ‘landowner rights’ advocates some of whom also belong to the ‘Wise Use’ groups. They usually not only want to keep paddlers off the rivers but they want to develop their land in any way they please even if it destroys natural resources. Some folks think if they own land that it ‘ALL MINE’ and I can do with it what I want while others see themselves as temporary stewards responsible for passing the land on to others to also will practice stewardship. It is a significant movement and unless paddlers and others become involved and pay attention – you’ll see more and more rivers placed off-limits. I’m amazed that if Colorado Law is what Mr. Weiser sez it is that ANY rivers out there can be accessed legally. Something doesn’t fit. I wonder how popular rivers fare on the access issue in that state. The thread has been excellent raising awareness  and I’ll bet more than a few now realize how important it is to contribute/join the AWA who works on behalf paddlers on access issues.

I will go against the spirit of my original post and add a few more coals to the fire. Larry, you make a good point here.  It is important that people reading this newsgroup realize the opinions of Scott and landowners like him.  I do admit that I skimmed over the legal content of your posting pretty lightly, because I myself (speaking only for myself) do not give much consideration to written law while paddling.  Not to say that I am a scofflaw, I just rely on simple common sense and judgement when leaving the city for a relaxing paddling trip.  In my opinion, many access laws are on the books for liability reasons.  There is a certain river here in the Southeast, that is officially banned from access.  I have been told by local law enforcement officials that they do not particularly mind paddlers on the river, nor do they bother them if the right attitude is excercised by the group.  The law was enacted to protect the state in the event of an unforseen accident.  When I paddle, I paddle until told not to.  If a local landowner expresses their concern in my paddling, I respect their wishes.  If I should get arrested and am legally "in the wrong", I pay my fine and do not visit that particular area again. This approach has not failed me yet. Mutual respect goes quite a long way here in the Southeast.  Maybe things are different in Colorado, I really do not know.  I am not saying we should feel that we have the right to paddle anywhere.  I am simply saying that 9 times out of ten, if you are not making a problem for anyone, people usually do not make problems for you.  If Mr. Weiser’s family property on Boulder Creek contains a fence to control livestock, and by Colorado law they have a right to maintain that fence, then I would say paddling that section does impose a problem on someone, so it shold be avoided.  It is quite possible that if there was no need for the fence, the Weisers may not care if their property is paddled across, who knows, it does not really matter.  If I am paddling down a "legal" creek and a trout fisherman has inadvertantly snagged his line across the river,  I wait, or help, or get out and walk around.  I do not care who is or is not supposed to be there. (enough rambling, I will try to make my point here.) I am willing to conceed to Scott that there is a valid interest in these dicussions on this newsgroup, but I do wish I could make the "NOT weiser" boolean search request work on my newsreader client.  The problem I have with these posts is that Scott seems to be preoccupied with preaching legal findings and citing past relevant rulings to paddlers that are responding back with statements like "If I can paddle it, the river is navigable!" and "Just try to stop me!".  Reading these threads is like sitting in a nicely furnished living room watching an acclaimed vet scold his dog by using the following phrase…"Sparky, the reason you should not urinate on the carpet is because the acidic nature of your fluid excrement has an adverse effect on both the optical appearance of this synthetic-based floor covering and also tends to react unpleasantly with the olfactory processes of myself and my house guests. Please, Sparky, give me a reason why I should not confine you to your pre-designated travel container."  Whereas, the more intelligent vet, the person that learns through careful observation would say "Bad Dog, go to your box.", realizing that dogs do not make for good argument. I guess what I am trying to say here is that the best communicators are the ones that can tailor a response, argumentative or otherwise, to the intended audience.  Make your point and make it clear.  There is nothing wrong with being a highly intelligent, well versed, individual, but make no mistake…a highly- intelligent, well-versed idiot is still an idiot. Finally, Scott, if you feel the need to reply to this posting, I will assume that you deem me a colleague worth engaging with in meaningful debate.  If your words truly express your feelings about me… (Your Previous Posting) <CLIP If you don’t like the course of the conversation, then toddle off and start one of your own instead of sniping at the adults who are having an interesting discussion.   You sound like a three-year-old who’s whining and throwing a temper tantrum because Mommy is ignoring you.

<CLIP …then why do you bother post a reply, I personally do not waste my time reasoning with someone that sounded like a spoiled three-year-old. If you do repond and I do not, please do not feel bad.  Sometimes I go out and paddle instead of talking about it in this newsgroup. BTW- I apologize for the YELLING in my first post, it was uncalled for. SYOTR (well maybe 99.9% of you) -Craig

Response:

From, Mick "Better to be paddlin’ hard than hardly paddlin’ "

Response:

I think it’s kind of funny. Near the beginning of the great return of Weiser, everyone was more or less agreeing with him. Now he’s isolated himself against the NG again by posting more to this newsgroup on a few days than I have since I’ve started looking at it.

Of course, the slingers of insults who *start* the threads have *nothing* to do with it…..not… If only the "vocal minority" were able to leave well enough alone, then perhaps these pyrotechnic offshoots wouldn’t happen, but of course, unable to audit their conduct, they just *have* to get a dig in there.   Well, poke me and I poke right back.  You want it to stop, you stop it. Regards, Scott Weiser ****** "I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend upon my friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" ****** http://www.dimensional.com/~weiser/ Copyright 1998 by Scott Weiser Under the UCC, by the act of transmitting any commercial e-mail advertisment to this address, you are expressly contracting with me in my professional capacity for a consultation on the ad’s effectiveness and you expressly agree to pay to me the sum of $250.00 for each such consultation within 10 days of my report to the original sending address.  You further expressly agree that all actions for recovery of fees owed shall be subject solely to the laws of the State of Colorado, which shall have sole jurisdiction.

Response:

Hey, hey. We should be counting our blessings. Suppose Mr. Weiser owned the put-in to the Ocoee or Chatooga?   Paddlers need to know about folks like him AND how he thinks. Mr. Weiser is representative of many ‘landowner rights’ advocates some of whom also belong to the ‘Wise Use’ groups. They usually not only want to keep paddlers off the rivers but they want to develop their land in any way they please even if it destroys natural resources. Some folks think if they own land that it ‘ALL MINE’ and I can do with it what I want while others see themselves as temporary stewards responsible for passing the land on to others to also will practice stewardship. It is a significant movement and unless paddlers and others become involved and pay attention – you’ll see more and more rivers placed off-limits. I’m amazed that if Colorado Law is what Mr. Weiser sez it is that ANY rivers out there can be accessed legally. Something doesn’t fit. I wonder how popular rivers fare on the access issue in that state. The thread has been excellent raising awareness  and I’ll bet more than a few now realize how important it is to contribute/join the AWA who works on behalf paddlers on access issues.

Response:

I apologize in advance, but there really is no diplomatic way to state this… ENOUGH WITH THE DAMN ACCESS DEBATE THREADS!

Thank you for that trenchant commentary. I am a kayaker.  I view and post to this newsgroup in order to keep abreast of new happenings in the sport I love.

And access debates have nothing to do with your sport?   Boy, are you deluded. And just what makes you think that anyone else is obliged to give a rodent’s fundamental orifice about why YOU choose to participate here or what YOU like or want? When I see three postings (or threads) involving a river access issue, I think "Good debate, there have been some valid issues presented here".  When I see thirty posts, mostly by one individual, I think "These (expletive’in) people have nothing better to do with their time."

Well, I do rather enjoy jousting with the fine folks here…and the Netwits too.  It’s my time to waste though, so what’s your beef? Remember, I only post in reply to a query or discussion from someone else who, axiomatically, *is* interested in the subject. Please, If you are absolutely hot-and-bothered to the point that you are treating this news group like your own personal chat-room, I understand…But keep it private, e-mail is really an ideal medium for this type of thing. Don’t clog this otherwise interesting group with twenty different post that are essentially the same in content.

Clog the group?   Have you ever heard of a concept called the "delete" key?  How about the "down arrow" key?  Both of them will allow you to completely bypass any discussion which might cause consternation and confusion in your tiny mind. There’s and even better one….it’s called the "OFF" switch.  Use it in good health, but USE it. If the posts are the same in content, it’s because others keep asking the same questions, and as long as they do, I’ll keep responding to them because it’s the polite thing to do. For the record, Yes, I do now know that Scott Weiser(sp?) is very familiar with private domain laws in Colorado and he would prefer that kayakers show a little more respect towards his family’s legal wishes.  I also know that there are a lot of disrespectful boaters out there that believe once the water droplet leaves the cloud, it is there God-given right to use it at their convenience.  Well folks, these are things I learned in the first few posts. I can see both sides of the argument, but really do not give a flying (expletive)!

And so you would impose your will on everyone else, some of whom might be interested, simply because you don’t have the wit to skip a thread. How very altruistic of you.  If you have any other opinions that you think I am interested in past that point, know that I am not.  If any of you involved in this thread think of any other gems that need to be discussed pertaining to this topic. Please, WRITE YOUR (EXPLETIVE’IN) CONGRESSMAN OR SHUT THE (EXPLETIVE) UP!

Let me see if I can put this delicately……No. If you don’t like the course of the conversation, then toddle off and start one of your own instead of sniping at the adults who are having an interesting discussion.   You sound like a three-year-old who’s whining and throwing a temper tantrum because Mommy is ignoring you. Grow up and act like an adult. Regards, Scott Weiser ****** "I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend upon my friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" ****** http://www.dimensional.com/~weiser/ Copyright 1998 by Scott Weiser Under the UCC, by the act of transmitting any commercial e-mail advertisment to this address, you are expressly contracting with me in my professional capacity for a consultation on the ad’s effectiveness and you expressly agree to pay to me the sum of $250.00 for each such consultation within 10 days of my report to the original sending address.  You further expressly agree that all actions for recovery of fees owed shall be subject solely to the laws of the State of Colorado, which shall have sole jurisdiction.

Response:

I think it’s kind of funny. Near the beginning of the great return of Weiser, everyone was more or less agreeing with him. Now he’s isolated himself against the NG again by posting more to this newsgroup on a few days than I have since I’ve started looking at it. "Regards," Sam Glover

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You know, I agree with just about everything Scott said in this post. Nobody forces you to read every article on the newsgroup.  Just skip over the threads you don’t like.  I know we’ve gone over this subject a zillion times, but apparently we keep getting new people in the group who are not aware of the differences in access laws from place to place.  Some of these people want argue with Scott, but it really won’t do them any good–they can’t change the laws of the state of Colorado. They do, however, learn from the exchanges.  And for every person who posts in the thread, there are at least ten who are reading it and learning from it.  If paddlers improve their behaviour wrt access, then maybe some irate landowners who have the power to block access to put-ins or even to the entire river may decide that paddlers aren’t so bad.  If these threads improve our collective behaviour enough that the closure of just one river is avoided, then it will be worthwhile.

Well said. I do take issue with one of Scott’s statements, though. Remember, I only post in reply to a query or discussion from someone else who, axiomatically, *is* interested in the subject. Scott, you were the first poster on this subject.  So one out of the dozens of your posts was NOT a repy.  (OK, I may be picking at straws there, but read on.)  Also, just the other day, you replied to a post that was completely unrelated (i.e. had nothing to do with access), and did so in a manner that seemed (to me) aimed at starting another big thread.  Hence, you do not ONLY post to reply to questions about access, although I would agree that the vast majority of your posts are valid replies.  If you had said that you "usually" or "generally only reply… then I would have no argument with your statement.

Well, you’ve got me there.  I admit to priming the pan from time to time, but you can hardly blame me when the flash occurs.   It’s possible for everyone to simply ignore my flashy lures, but it’s also highly unlikely, as I have discovered, and so I take advantage of that phenomenon to stimulate debate, and this has been another interesting and lively debate, and, as you so succintly said, some people learned something new.  Whether they like what they learned, or agree with it is unimportant, what’s important is that they have had their horizons expanded, which is *always* a good thing. Regards, Scott Weiser ****** "I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend upon my friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" ****** http://www.dimensional.com/~weiser/ Copyright 1998 by Scott Weiser Under the UCC, by the act of transmitting any commercial e-mail advertisment to this address, you are expressly contracting with me in my professional capacity for a consultation on the ad’s effectiveness and you expressly agree to pay to me the sum of $250.00 for each such consultation within 10 days of my report to the original sending address.  You further expressly agree that all actions for recovery of fees owed shall be subject solely to the laws of the State of Colorado, which shall have sole jurisdiction.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I apologize in advance, but there really is no diplomatic way to state this… ENOUGH WITH THE DAMN ACCESS DEBATE THREADS! I am a kayaker.  I view and post to this newsgroup in order to keep abreast of new happenings in the sport I love. When I see three postings (or threads) involving a river access issue, I think "Good debate, there have been some valid issues presented here".  When I see thirty posts, mostly by one individual, I think "These (expletive’in) people have nothing better to do with their time." Please, If you are absolutely hot-and-bothered to the point that you are treating this news group like your own personal chat-room, I understand…But keep it private, e-mail is really an ideal medium for this type of thing. Don’t clog this otherwise interesting group with twenty different post that are essentially the same in content. For the record, Yes, I do now know that Scott Weiser(sp?) is very familiar with private domain laws in Colorado and he would prefer that kayakers show a little more respect towards his family’s legal wishes.  I also know that there are a lot of disrespectful boaters out there that believe once the water droplet leaves the cloud, it is there God-given right to use it at their convenience.  Well folks, these are things I learned in the first few posts. I can see both sides of the argument, but really do not give a flying (expletive)!  If you have any other opinions that you think I am interested in past that point, know that I am not.  If any of you involved in this thread think of any other gems that need to be discussed pertaining to this topic. Please, WRITE YOUR (EXPLETIVE’IN) CONGRESSMAN OR SHUT THE (EXPLETIVE) UP! By the way, if any of you would like to paddle this weekend, let me know Let me out of this concrete jungle, -Craig "no playboat yet" Geist

You better watch out buddy … you started a new possible deadly feud here … you better know that Mr. Weiser is a very fast typist, commands the English language like no other, is an expert of all laws of the king’s land, he is a sharp shooter (he is also a gunsmithlike expert) and a land "king size" owner. You are doomed my friend! Scotty will beam your tired sorry paddling ass up! PS: I really felt sorry for the incident and for the two idiots that went after Mr. Weiser’s mother but this is to much! Fred Fred Mechini Visit my homepage  http://pluto.njcc.com/~fmec/Welcome.html A WEB PAGE DEDICATED TO OLYMPIC SPRINT KAYAK

Response:

You know, I agree with just about everything Scott said in this post. Nobody forces you to read every article on the newsgroup.  Just skip over the threads you don’t like.  I know we’ve gone over this subject a zillion times, but apparently we keep getting new people in the group who are not aware of the differences in access laws from place to place.  Some of these people want argue with Scott, but it really won’t do them any good–they can’t change the laws of the state of Colorado. They do, however, learn from the exchanges.  And for every person who posts in the thread, there are at least ten who are reading it and learning from it.  If paddlers improve their behaviour wrt access, then maybe some irate landowners who have the power to block access to put-ins or even to the entire river may decide that paddlers aren’t so bad.  If these threads improve our collective behaviour enough that the closure of just one river is avoided, then it will be worthwhile. I do take issue with one of Scott’s statements, though. Remember, I only post in reply to a query or discussion from someone else who, axiomatically, *is* interested in the subject.

Scott, you were the first poster on this subject.  So one out of the dozens of your posts was NOT a repy.  (OK, I may be picking at straws there, but read on.)  Also, just the other day, you replied to a post that was completely unrelated (i.e. had nothing to do with access), and did so in a manner that seemed (to me) aimed at starting another big thread.  Hence, you do not ONLY post to reply to questions about access, although I would agree that the vast majority of your posts are valid replies.  If you had said that you "usually" or "generally only reply… then I would have no argument with your statement. -Paul

Response:

I apologize in advance, but there really is no diplomatic way to state this… ENOUGH WITH THE DAMN ACCESS DEBATE THREADS! I am a kayaker.  I view and post to this newsgroup in order to keep abreast of new happenings in the sport I love. When I see three postings (or threads) involving a river access issue, I think "Good debate, there have been some valid issues presented here".  When I see thirty posts, mostly by one individual, I think "These (expletive’in) people have nothing better to do with their time." Please, If you are absolutely hot-and-bothered to the point that you are treating this news group like your own personal chat-room, I understand…But keep it private, e-mail is really an ideal medium for this type of thing. Don’t clog this otherwise interesting group with twenty different post that are essentially the same in content. For the record, Yes, I do now know that Scott Weiser(sp?) is very familiar with private domain laws in Colorado and he would prefer that kayakers show a little more respect towards his family’s legal wishes.  I also know that there are a lot of disrespectful boaters out there that believe once the water droplet leaves the cloud, it is there God-given right to use it at their convenience.  Well folks, these are things I learned in the first few posts. I can see both sides of the argument, but really do not give a flying (expletive)!  If you have any other opinions that you think I am interested in past that point, know that I am not.  If any of you involved in this thread think of any other gems that need to be discussed pertaining to this topic. Please, WRITE YOUR (EXPLETIVE’IN) CONGRESSMAN OR SHUT THE (EXPLETIVE) UP! By the way, if any of you would like to paddle this weekend, let me know Let me out of this concrete jungle, -Craig "no playboat yet" Geist

Response:

Question:

What’s the difference?  Is there anyone with experience with both?

Response:

What’s the difference?  Is there anyone with experience with both?

Big difference!  Prozac started it all and many other (paxil, zoloft, effexor, luvox) followed.  The basis is the same, but for more info I would suggest doing a search on any one in particular or investing in a drug book for lay people or checking out a PDR.  There are many here that have been on both, perhaps if you specify what it is you wantr to know…. Gwen

Response:

What’s the difference?  Is there anyone with experience with both?

  Years ago my pDoc was reluctant to put me on Prozac.  I was already on Imipramine with Ativan for GAD and Prozac was known to cause anxiety.  However since depression was also a major problem for me, he finally put me on Prozac.  Worked great for me for a couple of years.  It did make me more anxious, but greatly helped my depression and panic.  Eventually I switched to Paxil because the anxiety got to be too much.  Paxil did have less of an anxiety effect on me and also helped panic and depression.  Paxil has a shorter half-life and this can make withdrawl from it more difficult (it did for me).    A search of this NG (and alt.support.depression) should provide all sorts of experiences with both. Depends on your needs as to which is best and of course YMMV.    Of course the Web has lots of info too, like these: http://www.gold.net/users/ad88/sideedi.htm http://www.MedsiteNavigator.com/drugs/drugs.html    (Prozac=Fluoxetine,Paxil=Paroxetine) Cheers, Bill

Response:

:       What is a therapeutic dose of PAXIL. That depends on you and your doctor.  SmithKline makes 10 mg (new), 20 mg, and 30 mg tablets I believe. Some of

these have scores in the middle, some don’t.  I believe the 20 mg does. One possible advantage of Paxil is faster onset of action.  Prozac usually takes weeks, Paxil is faster.  It took me about 20 minutes.  I take 20 mg.  Initial side-effects that wore off: jitters, uneven feelings.   Prolonged side-effects: inability to sleep without klonopin or Excedrin PM, libido decreasing from little to almost zilch.  Frankly, I like that, as I am going through a divorce.  My wife doesn’t want me, and I don’t want anyone else.  I would take it for that reason alone.  It makes building a network of friends easier (no ulterior motives!).  I had previously had some panic/anxiety symptoms and have had none since I started, although I do have times when I am down.

Response:

<much really good stuff snipped In my opinion (panic disorder for 27 years), what is important is for each of us to have a doctor who understands that each of us is fighting a problem that has a biological core and many psychological side effects.  

I think you’ve really encapsulated it well there, Tom. It seems to me that the worst doctor one can have is the type who has *one* cure which s/he applies universally and if it doesn’t work, the patient is at fault. The testimonies on ASAP alone bear witness to just how many different solutions there are. — Gary Cooper

Response:

My doctor is moving me from prozac to paxil; she is under the impression that paxil has an advantage over prozac in handling anxiety. I am not good at search the literature; can anyone confirm or deny my doctor’s impression (for one thing, I dread the change-over period). Kristin —                     Kristin Rachael Hayward                 http://130.111.120.13/~hayward

Hello All!! Happy Holidays! My personal experience has been that Paxil is much more effective against panic disorder than Prozac.  I also know many others who have benefitted from Prozac re panic attacks. I tried Prozac for a short while, and it actually <<induced panic attacks, even though I started out with a gradual, upward tapering dosage.  I have friends who felt very shaky and energized while starting Paxil, but I never experiened that set of side effects either. I think the lesson to be learned is that each of us has his/her own biochemistry and (to quote Dr. George Sheehan) "each of us is an experiment of one".  We all respond differently and need to be treated as such.  For me, Paxil has been an excellent anti-panic med and Prozac was a dismal failure.  For the next person, however, the reverse could be true.  I believe that the SSRI’s and the benzos (and the tricyclics-imipramine, etc) all have a place in treating panic disorder. In my opinion (panic disorder for 27 years), what is important is for each of us to have a doctor who understands that each of us is fighting a problem that has a biological core and many psychological side effects.   I wish all of you the best in 1997 Regards, Tom — *****TRG Technologies*****                                       Tom Getts-Principal Consultant                             Web Pages                      Database Services (specialty: Oracle) General Internet Consulting    Scientific Consulting http://www.trg-tech.com                                                                    

Response:

:       What is a therapeutic dose of PAXIL. I believe the standard therapeutic dosage for Paxil is 40mg, but you may end up on a higher or lower dosage depending on what is effective with tollerable side effects. I’m pretty comfortable at 30mg right now and may not have to move up to 40mg.                                         Best Wishes,                                         Arthur

Arthur Thanks I had a feeling 10 and 20 were low Did you get any REAL benefit at 10 or 20 (rather what did you feel happening ????) ie… No regular anxiety or just no PA ???? thanks …. John

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : : Arthur : : Thanks I had a feeling 10 and 20 were low : : Did you get any REAL benefit at 10 or 20 (rather what did you feel : happening ????) ie… No regular anxiety or just no PA ???? Well, I still have some anxiety problems at 30mg, but the PAs have stopped (I’m still celebrating that one!!!). Basically, I experienced increasing relief from the biologically caused anxiety as my dosage increased, but you can’t just get rid of all your anxiety with increased dosage. It’s natural to have some residue of psychological anxiety after experiencing severe anxiety or panic attacks, and this is best adressed with some form of psychotherapy. And let’s not forget, some degree of anxiety is simply part of a healthy mental state. The medications are a very important tool, but some of the work we just have to do ourselves.                                         Best Wishes,                                         Arthur

Thanks         I’ll keep in touch and let you now how its going John

Response:

[snip Anyone have the address to Noodle's page?  I can never remember it. But, it has a lot of info about anxiety there! Good luck! JLS --

[snip] The URL is http://www.algy.com/anxiety/anxiety.html Best wishes, Hirsch address in header has been changed to avoid junk mail

Response:

: : Arthur : : Thanks I had a feeling 10 and 20 were low : : Did you get any REAL benefit at 10 or 20 (rather what did you feel : happening ????) ie… No regular anxiety or just no PA ???? Well, I still have some anxiety problems at 30mg, but the PAs have stopped (I’m still celebrating that one!!!). Basically, I experienced increasing relief from the biologically caused anxiety as my dosage increased, but you can’t just get rid of all your anxiety with increased dosage. It’s natural to have some residue of psychological anxiety after experiencing severe anxiety or panic attacks, and this is best adressed with some form of psychotherapy. And let’s not forget, some degree of anxiety is simply part of a healthy mental state. The medications are a very important tool, but some of the work we just have to do ourselves.                                         Best Wishes,                                         Arthur

Response:

:       What is a therapeutic dose of PAXIL. I believe the standard therapeutic dosage for Paxil is 40mg, but you may end up on a higher or lower dosage depending on what is effective with tollerable side effects. I’m pretty comfortable at 30mg right now and may not have to move up to 40mg.                                         Best Wishes,                                         Arthur

Response:

My doctor is moving me from prozac to paxil; she is under the impression that paxil has an advantage over prozac in handling anxiety. I am not good at search the literature; can anyone confirm or deny my doctor’s impression (for one thing, I dread the change-over period). Kristin —                     Kristin Rachael Hayward                 http://130.111.120.13/~hayward

Kristin, I am on Paxil for anxiety, because I get really wound up, and the Dr. said it would take the edge off and calm me down.  My SO, who is bi-polar, is on Prozac, because he needs to be boosted up (He could sleep for days).  I feel better on Paxil, but it was the first med I have been on in years.  YOu can check the Anxiety Web Page to get more info. Anyone have the address to Noodle’s page?  I can never remember it. But, it has a lot of info about anxiety there! Good luck! JLS — "I’ve been searching for the Daughter of the Devil Himself, I’ve been searching for an Angel in White, I’ve been looking for a woman who’s a little of both, and I can feel her, but she’s no where in sight…"       Funny, I thought I heard someone was calling my name… http://www.winternet.com/~zodiac

Response:

: My doctor is moving me from prozac to paxil; she is under the impression that : paxil has an advantage over prozac in handling anxiety. : : I am not good at search the literature; can anyone confirm or deny : my doctor’s impression (for one thing, I dread the change-over period). Hi Kristin, I think the most important question here is whether or not the prozac has significantly helped you? If you seem to be doing well on the prozac, then I don’t see much reason to change. However, if the prozac isn’t helping enough or if the prozac has unreliable affects, then paxil is certainly worth a try. I take paxil, but a close friend of mine takes prozac for anxiety. As long as the prozac works well for him, I wouldn’t encourage him to change. As far as I know, the only reason to prefer paxil over prozac is that, in general, people respond more reliably to paxil. Prozac may be harder to predict, but when it works for someone it seems to work as well as paxil.                                         Best Wishes,                                         Arthur

Response:

My doctor is moving me from prozac to paxil; she is under the impression that paxil has an advantage over prozac in handling anxiety. I am not good at search the literature; can anyone confirm or deny my doctor’s impression (for one thing, I dread the change-over period). Kristin —                    Kristin Rachael Hayward                http://130.111.120.13/~hayward

Technically, Paxil has been approved by the FDA for anxiety treatment, while Prozac has not. Practically, both are used, and the responses to meds vary greatly from person to person.  The question you need to ask about the Prozac is:  Is it working??  If the Prozac has relieved your anxiety, why change??  OTOH, if you are still having problems with anxiety even after giving Prozac a chance to work, then Paxil is a reasonable alternative.  There is no one right med for anxiety, and finding the one that works best for you often involves trial and error. Please bear in mind that any of the SRI meds  (which include Prozac and PAxil) will take several weeks before they will have any effect on anxiety.  Also, it is worth noting that one of the possible side effects of these meds is an _increase_  in anxiety in the early stages.  You can get around this, if it’s a problem, by starting at a very low dose, and then working up to the therapeutic dose.  Also, a short-term prescription for a benzodiazepine can also help reduce anxiety in starting an SRI. Hope this helps, Hirsch address in header has been changed to avoid junk mail

Response:

Please bear in mind that any of the SRI meds  (which include Prozac and PAxil) will take several weeks before they will have any effect on anxiety.  Also, it is worth noting that one of the possible side effects of these meds is an _increase_  in anxiety in the early stages.  You can get around this, if it’s a problem, by starting at a very low dose, and then working up to the therapeutic dose.  Also, a short-term prescription for a benzodiazepine can also help reduce anxiety in starting an SRI. Hope this helps, Hirsch address in header has been changed to avoid junk mail

PMJI,         What is a therapeutic dose of PAXIL.  I had a major PA ( had to get out of the car and calm down ) on a trip to new York one Sunday a month and a half ago and after that incident the next week was hell even had problems driving alone, then went to see a Psychiatrist he prescribed the PAXIL. after that could drive alone a little better.  I started at 10mg for a month and felt a only slightly better. On Sunday I moved up to 20mgs and then On Christmas eve I had to drive the family and our au-pare 45 mins away and although I had pins and needles in my hands and mild anxiesty i finished the trip up with no major problems,  once there no problemns and on the way home only  slight anxiety. ( better I think???) now I am wondering what to expect and what is the dose….. Thanks John A quiet sufferer for 15 years……

Response:

My doctor is moving me from prozac to paxil; she is under the impression that paxil has an advantage over prozac in handling anxiety. I am not good at search the literature; can anyone confirm or deny my doctor’s impression (for one thing, I dread the change-over period). Kristin —                     Kristin Rachael Hayward                 http://130.111.120.13/~hayward

Response:

My doctor is moving me from prozac to paxil; she is under the impression that paxil has an advantage over prozac in handling anxiety. I am not good at search the literature; can anyone confirm or deny my doctor’s impression (for one thing, I dread the change-over period).

If I recall, Paxil has US approval for anxiety problems – but I’m not sure whether that means it’s any better as such. As I understand it, it just means the manufacturer has bothered to get it approved for that purpose. Anecdotally, I have heard it claimed that it is better for this use than Prozac, but I’m not aware of any studies that prove that. If Prozac hasn’t been ‘doing the trick’, it’s a popular alternative though. Good luck with it! — Gary Cooper

Response:

Question:

Hi.  I’ve been on Prozac fort Attention Deficit Disorder for about two months now.  I recently started having problems with insomnia. My Psychiatrist started me on trazodone (Desyrel) in the evenings to help me sleep, but I seem to be getting some bad side effects from it (indigestion, trouble concentrating, and sexual problems). Here’s my question.  It seems like Psychiatrists have a reluctance (justified I’m sure) to prescribe hypnotics or other strong sleep medications to overcome the insomnia that is fairly common with Prozac.  Does anyone out there know what is used apart from the other anti-depressants (e.g., trazodone and amitriptyline)? Has anyone actually had their Psychiatrist prescribe them Halcion or something similar? Would over-the-counter sleep medications do any good? Since I am being treated for ADD, any drugs that take a long time to wash out, or leave my mind feeling "dull" are out of the question. As always, thanks for any and all help. — | Richard S. Smith  | PROGRESS(tm) 4GL Developer | Monrovia, California  |

Response:

: Hi.  I’ve been on Prozac fort Attention Deficit Disorder for about : two months now.  I recently started having problems with insomnia. : My Psychiatrist started me on trazodone (Desyrel) in the evenings to : help me sleep, but I seem to be getting some bad side effects from : it (indigestion, trouble concentrating, and sexual problems). : Here’s my question.  It seems like Psychiatrists have a reluctance : (justified I’m sure) to prescribe hypnotics or other strong sleep : medications to overcome the insomnia that is fairly common with : Prozac.  Does anyone out there know what is used apart from the : other anti-depressants (e.g., trazodone and amitriptyline)? : Has anyone actually had their Psychiatrist prescribe them Halcion : or something similar? : Would over-the-counter sleep medications do any good? : Since I am being treated for ADD, any drugs that take a long time to : wash out, or leave my mind feeling "dull" are out of the question. : As always, thanks for any and all help. : — : | Richard S. Smith  | PROGRESS(tm) 4GL Developer | Monrovia, California  | i’ve found a good drink helps the most. i can’t stand the feeling of sleeping pills after one night of them. drink in moderation

Response:

: Hi.  I’ve been on Prozac fort Attention Deficit Disorder for about : two months now.  I recently started having problems with insomnia. By the time insomnia kicks in with any of these drugs, chances are the good effects are diminishing too. I question the long term use period. Halcion would give you a double whammy. It might work one or two nights a week and set you up for some unexpected side effects. If you have no physical problems, consider exercise and walks and interventionist type psychologists. Avoid Freudians. —                                              And this is where                                              they spin gold into                                              straw.

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: By the time insomnia kicks in with any of these drugs, chances are the : good effects are diminishing too. I question the long term use period. What is long term use?  I was on Prozac for 2+ years before my body started getting used to it and I had to try another SRI.  The good effects started 1 1/2 days after starting it, and I never had what I would characterize as insomnia. : If you have no physical problems, consider exercise and walks and : interventionist type psychologists. Avoid Freudians. Too bad psychologists have never been proven to work.  The changes I had in 1 1/2 days could not have been wrought by psychologists in 20 years.

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Too bad psychologists have never been proven to work.  The changes I had in 1 1/2 days could not have been wrought by psychologists in 20 years.

Hehehee.  Thank you Jeanne, I enjoyed that.  No offense intended to any professional people out there (and it certainly took me more than 1 1/2 days to see effects from my first antidepressant), but I know exactly what you mean.  :) lilo

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               ….. The best drug yet for add. Hits all 3 brain                interactions. seriton, … Helps me concentrate without                the stimatues like dexadrine, ritalitin,….                 Effexor FAQ  Version 1.0  3 March 1994                                   Index. 1. What is Effexor 2. How does Effexor differ from other antidepressants? 3. What kinds of depression can be treated with Effexor? 4. What are the side-effects of Effexor? 5. Which side effects force people to stop taking Effexor? 6. Are there any special hazards for people with bipolar disorder? 7. Does Effexor interact with other medications? 8. Does Effexor interact with alcohol? 9  Is Effexor safe for a woman who is pregnant, about to become pregnant,    or nursing an infant? 10. How is treatment with Effexor initiated? 11. What is the usual final dose of Effexor? 12. Are there withdrawal effects if Effexor is suddenly discontinued? 13. Is Effexor toxic if an overdose is taken? 14. What will Effexor cost? 15. When will Effexor be available? 16. Additions and corrections. 1. What is Effexor         Effexor is a new antidepressant with a novel chemical structure.  The chemical structure of Effexor does not resemble those of any currently used antidepressants.  Effexor is not an MAO inhibitor 2. How does Effexor differ from other antidepressants?         Effexor seems to have the relative freedom from side-effects associated with the SSRIs [fluoxetine (Prozac), sertraline (Zoloft), paroxetine (Paxil), fluvoxamine (Luvox)] and the impact on both the serotonin and norepinephrine associated with the tricyclic antidepressants (amitriptyline (Elavil), inipramine (Tofranil) etc.).  It is hypothesized that the action of the Effexor molecule upon both serotonin and norepinephrine will cause Effexor to be a successful antidepressant for some people who have not responded to treatment with SSRIs. 3. What kinds of depression can be treated with Effexor?         While the pre-marketing studies were restricted to patients with a DSM-III-R diagnosis of Major Depressive Disorder (with or without melancholia), it is to be expected that Effexor will be prescribed for patients with Dysthymia, Major Depression, and Bipolar Disorder.         Although here have been no published studies on the use of Effexor for the treatment of children and adolescents with depression, it can be expected that the drug will be prescribed for depressed children and adolescents.         No special problems were encountered when Effexor was prescribed for elderly people with depression.         While Effexor was only studied for periods of administration of up to 6-weeks, it is to expected that patients with long-standing depressions will take the drug for longer periods of time. 4. What are the side-effects of Effexor?         The most common side-effects and the percentage of people reporting them during clinical trials are:                                 Nausea                  37%                                 Headache                25%                                 Sleepiness              23%                                 Dry mouth               22%                                 Dizziness               19%                                 Insomnia                18%                                 Constipation            15%                                 Nervousness             13%                                 Fatigue                 12%                                 Sweating                12%                                 Decreased appetite      11%                                 Male sexual dysfunction 12%                                 Female sexual                                           Dysfunction    2% 5. Which side effects force people to stop taking Effexor?         In the premarketing studies  19% (537 / 2897) of depressed patients taking Effexor discontinued the medication because of side-effects. The side effects and the percentages of total patients who dropped out for each are:                                 Nausea                  6%                                 Sleepiness              3%                                 Insomnia                3%                                 Dizziness               3%                                 Male sexual dysfunction 3% *                                 Headache                2%                                 Nervousness             2%                                 Anxiety                 2%                                 Dry mouth               2%                                 Fatigue                 2%                                 Sweating                2%                                            * % of men 6. Are there any special hazards for people with bipolar disorder?         As with other antidepressants, people with bipolar disorder who are not being treated with a mood regulator such as lithium, valproate (Depakote), or carbamazepine (Tegretol), may be pushed into a manic episode when treated with Effexor. 7. Does Effexor interact with other medications?         Lithium – No interaction         Diazepam (Valium) – No interaction         Cimetidine (Tagamet) – Slight increase in blood level of         Effexor’s active metabolite.  Not of clinical significance.         Fluoxetine (Prozac) – Significant increase in the concentration         of Effexor and its active metabolite.  Potential for increased side-         effects. 8. Does Effexor interact with alcohol?         Although Effexor has not been found to increase the impairment of cognitive or motor skills caused by alcohol, the manufacturer warns against drinking while taking Effexor. 9 Is Effexor safe for a woman who is pregnant, about to become pregnant,   or nursing an infant?         There is no data to establish the safety of Effexor for the fetus   or nursing infant. 9. How is treatment with Effexor initiated?         The usual starting dose of Effexor is 75 mg a day taken in two or three divided doses with food (to minimize nausea).  If higher doses are needed, the dose should not be increased more rapidly than 75 mg every 4 days. 10. What is the usual final dose of Effexor?         While doses up to 375 mg per day are approved by the FDA, some severely depressed patients have been treated with higher doses.  Most depressed people have been found to respond to doses under 300 mg per day. 11. Are there withdrawal effects if Effexor is suddenly discontinued?         Effexor should be discontinued gradually over at least 2-weeks.  If Effexor  suddenly discontinued, a withdrawal syndrome involving fatigue, nausea, dizziness, headache, insomnia, and nervousness, may develop. 12.  Is Effexor toxic if an overdose is taken?         Fourteen overdoses of Effexor have been reported.  In some cases Effexor was taken along with alcohol and/or other medications.  All individuals who took an overdose recovered without sequelae. 13. What will Effexor cost?         Effexor will be supplied in tablets ranging from 25 to 100 mg in strength.  The 25 mg tablets cost pharmacies nearly as much as the 100 mg tablets.  It is expected that all strengths of Effexor will be sold for between $1.00 and $1.50 per tablet. 14. When will Effexor be available?         A few psychiatrists have been given small supplies of Effexor. It is expected that Effexor will be widely available by the first week of April of 1994. 15. Additions and corrections.         This FAQ was prepared by Ivan K. Goldberg, MD.  Please address —                                                                 \\         ||                             Ivan Goldberg, MD                 ~        || ||    Voice Mail = 212-744-1846      ||      Fax = 212-737-0473           || || Snail Mail = NY Psychopharmacologic Inst. 1346 Lexington Ave NYC 10128 || : Hi.  I’ve been on Prozac fort Attention Deficit Disorder for about : two months now.  I recently started having problems with insomnia. : My Psychiatrist started me on trazodone (Desyrel) in the evenings to : help me sleep, but I seem to be getting some bad side effects from : it (indigestion, trouble concentrating, and sexual problems). : Here’s my question.  It seems like Psychiatrists have a reluctance : (justified I’m sure) to prescribe hypnotics or other strong sleep : medications to overcome the insomnia that is fairly common with : Prozac.  Does anyone out there know what is used apart from the : other anti-depressants (e.g., trazodone and amitriptyline)? : Has anyone actually had their Psychiatrist prescribe them Halcion : or something similar? : Would over-the-counter sleep medications do any good? : Since I am being treated for ADD, any drugs that take a long time to : wash out, or leave my mind feeling "dull" are out of the question. : As always, thanks for any and all help. : — : | Richard S. Smith  | PROGRESS(tm) 4GL Developer | Monrovia, California  | — Scott Onofrio                            LaserJet IHV Developer Group

… read more »

Response:

(Jeanne Guidry) writes:

I just started Prozac in conjuction with Cylert and have noticed no effects after a week; moreover, my psyc said that the clinical effects probably won’t be evident for at least a month, although I might see some changes, most notably side effects, earlier.  So far, so good–no headaches, insomnia, etc. But then again, my biochem is probably different as Ritalin had little clinical effect on me.

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