Question:

Hello everybody,     I have just been prescribed a corticosteroid inhaler (Flovent) for mild asthma.  The pharmacist told me about thrush, and that I should be sure to rinse my mouth after I take my dose.  I later called the pharmacist back and asked if I got it, could I give it to someone else (through kissing) and the answer was yes.  So my question is, how common is it if you rinse, and how much of an inconvenience is it if you get it?  Has anyone ever given it to a boyfriend/girlfriend?  Is it easy to control with a fungal mouthwash?  I’m afraid to kiss my boyfriend before I find out more (I couldn’t find much on the web beyond the basic description, and the fact that you can get it even if you rinse well).  Of course I am going to put a call into my allergist, but he only has a clinic once a week or maybe less, so I don’t know when I will get a response.  PLEASE e-mail me about this if anyone has any input on the subject! Thanks!     Mary

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello everybody,     I have just been prescribed a corticosteroid inhaler (Flovent) for mild asthma.  The pharmacist told me about thrush, and that I should be sure to rinse my mouth after I take my dose.  I later called the pharmacist back and asked if I got it, could I give it to someone else (through kissing) and the answer was yes.  So my question is, how common is it if you rinse, and how much of an inconvenience is it if you get it?  Has anyone ever given it to a boyfriend/girlfriend?  Is it easy to control with a fungal mouthwash?  I’m afraid to kiss my boyfriend before I find out more (I couldn’t find much on the web beyond the basic description, and the fact that you can get it even if you rinse well).  Of course I am going to put a call into my allergist, but he only has a clinic once a week or maybe less, so I don’t know when I will get a response.  PLEASE e-mail me about this if anyone has any input on the subject! Thanks!     Mary

Mary, the germs that cause thrush are found in the normal flora of the mouth.  This means your bf already has them.  The reason that the inhalers can cause this problem is that they change the pH of the mouth.  If you rinse well [drink an entire 16 oz glass of water, and swish it around], you shouldn’t have a problem.  I have been using inhaled steroids for more than a decade, and have never gotten thrush. Chris Owens

Response:

Mary, I currently have Oral Thrush and have to fight it continuously.  I gargle very carefully and rinse after every use of Flovent, but still am prone to it.  I think it is very similar to women that are sensitive to vaginal yeast infections also.  One of the things I have found to really help is to eat yogurt everyday.  I also have a prescription for Mycelex lozenges that I can have filled whenever I need it, although I have found that if I rinse well and eat the yogurt I can usually keep the Thrush at bay without having to overuse the Mycelex. Chrystal – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Mary, the germs that cause thrush are found in the normal flora of the mouth.  This means your bf already has them.  The reason that the inhalers can cause this problem is that they change the pH of the mouth.  If you rinse well [drink an entire 16 oz glass of water, and swish it around], you shouldn’t have a problem.  I have been using inhaled steroids for more than a decade, and have never gotten thrush. Chris Owens

Response:

You may also want to try a spacer if you are not currently using one.  It is difficult to time inhalation of the drug with depressing or actuating the inhaler.  If you find you are hitting the back of your throat or tasting the medication when you use your inhaler you need to work on your technique.  A spacer helps you to get more of the medication to your airway instead of your mouth or throat. Don’t forget to shake the canister really well between each dose and wait 30sec to a minute between each puff. Hope this helps. Shane J. Varnum – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Mary, I currently have Oral Thrush and have to fight it continuously.  I gargle very carefully and rinse after every use of Flovent, but still am prone to it.  I think it is very similar to women that are sensitive to vaginal yeast infections also.  One of the things I have found to really help is to eat yogurt everyday

Response:

Mary:  regarding Flovent and thrush.  Generally speaking, thrush from Flovent and other inhaled corticosteriods is kind of hard to get.  Simple mouth care is all that is really necessary.  For example, if you take Flovent 2x/day, take it first thing in the a.m., eat breakfast, brush teeth … take it before bedtime and brush teeth before sleeping.  If you’re on the road, drink a few sips of water, soda, breath mints, etc.  Yes, thrush is transmittable, avoid kissing and wash eating utensils thoroughly afterwards.  To get thrush in the first place, you must be immunocompromised, or not eating/drinking for days (say an unconscious patient in ICU).  I take Azmacort (another corticosteroid) and honestly the aftertaste is so bad,  it’s not hard to remember to use mouthwash/drink/eat/brush teeth!! An asthmatic health professional

Response:

I take Flovent and the only problems I have with it is it makes your throat sore if I dont rinse well. As far as passing thrush on to a boyfriend, I have never heard of that..

Response:

The use of a spacer, can reduce the risk of getting thrush.  It is also a good idea to use a spacer, so the meds get in your lungs, not on on your tongue, roof of your mouth etc…

Response:

rinsing your mouth out, with just water, after each inhaler treatment, will greatly reduce the odds of getting thrush. btw, white oak bark tea works great on killing thrush.  i am not usually a proponent of alternative styles of medicine, but it worked for me.

Response:

You should always rinse out your mouth after using an inhaler.  Especially if you are using any type of steroid inhalers.

The use of a spacer, can reduce the risk of getting thrush.  It is also a good idea to use a spacer, so the meds get in your lungs, not on on your tongue, roof of your mouth etc…

Response:

Question:

Hello everyone its nice being able to post questions about anything that worries you.  I have been coming to this site for at least a month now and i love it. It  gives me so much information  and helpful hints. Everyone is so helpful. So now i need to know if you can buy medication when you port. I will be on the Elation in Dec. and i am cruiseing  the 7 day Mexican Rivera.  (Porta Vallarta-  Matzalan-  Carbos san Lucas) Do they sell medicine there and or do you need a prescription.  I was just thinking if i could pick some up and  will i get in trouble on the ship. Medicine here in Arizona and the states is so exspensive.  Any comments would be appreciated. Thanks to all who reply  Keep up the good advice everyone  i enjoy  coming here daily.

Response:

You do not make it very clear; but I presume you are wanting to ‘load up’ while in Mexico, to save money. I live near LA and many people drive to Tijuana for that purpose. In general there is no problem with the quality of the medicine . . . but one never knows. 99% of drugs (not sure about narcotics or pain medicines containing narcotics, such as more than over-the-counter amounts of codeine, etc.) need no Rx. Remember that most medications have generic equivalents or the generics are so close to what you are taking, it isn’t worth taking the chance. I wouldn’t, and don’t,  do it. The palest ink is better than the best memory.     –Chinese proverb There is no end to collecting books.    –Book of Ecclesiastes  To three possessions shalt thou look: Acquire a field, a friend, a book.    –Samuel haNagid, Vizier to the King of Granada

Response:

You can buy medication anywhere in the world, the question becomes is it legal, will you need a prescription, and how much can you legally bring back.  The customs department has a very good page on this, it’s at http://www.customs.gov/travel/med.htm Everything you want to know about bringing the stuff back is there.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello everyone its nice being able to post questions about anything that worries you.  I have been coming to this site for at least a month now and i love it. It  gives me so much information  and helpful hints. Everyone is so helpful. So now i need to know if you can buy medication when you port. I will be on the Elation in Dec. and i am cruiseing  the 7 day Mexican Rivera.  (Porta Vallarta-  Matzalan-  Carbos san Lucas) Do they sell medicine there and or do you need a prescription.  I was just thinking if i could pick some up and  will i get in trouble on the ship. Medicine here in Arizona and the states is so exspensive.  Any comments would be appreciated. Thanks to all who reply  Keep up the good advice everyone  i enjoy  coming here daily.

Response:

I’m all up for saving money.  But on medicine in a third world country?

I do it all the time.  According to my Doctor who worked for a pharmaceutical company before she went to med school… many of the medicines manufactured in other countries are done under license from US companies. You can also buy name brand meds at a much lower price.  In any case, I buy meds in Mexico with her blessing. My favorite place to buy meds is on Cozumel at http://gocozumel.com/pharmacy/ Many prescription meds are available in Mexico without a prescription… same exact medicines… at a much lower price.  There are also generic versions of medicines that are available in Mexico that are not available in the US.  Sometimes the prices on generic meds in Mexico are incredibly low compared to US prices. George in PA Countryside Travel www.countryside-travel.com

Response:

I purchase my meds in Canada. I fax them my prescription and they mail them. SUNNY<…….saves quite a large amount of money.

Response:

Just one word of advice if you’re planning to stock up — even if you can get your meds without a prescription, have your doctor give you ’scrip, just in case U.S. Customs should raise an eyebrow, which might be more likely if you’re bringing back meds in quantity.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello everyone its nice being able to post questions about anything that worries you.  I have been coming to this site for at least a month now and i love it. It  gives me so much information  and helpful hints. Everyone is so helpful. So now i need to know if you can buy medication when you port. I will be on the Elation in Dec. and i am cruiseing  the 7 day Mexican Rivera.  (Porta Vallarta-  Matzalan-  Carbos san Lucas) Do they sell medicine there and or do you need a prescription.  I was just thinking if i could pick some up and  will i get in trouble on the ship. Medicine here in Arizona and the states is so exspensive.  Any comments would be appreciated. Thanks to all who reply  Keep up the good advice everyone  i enjoy  coming here daily.

Response:

Wow, lots of information I didn’t know.  Thank’s for posting the URL for this informative site!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You can buy medication anywhere in the world, the question becomes is it legal, will you need a prescription, and how much can you legally bring back.  The customs department has a very good page on this, it’s at http://www.customs.gov/travel/med.htm Everything you want to know about bringing the stuff back is there. Hello everyone its nice being able to post questions about anything that worries you.  I have been coming to this site for at least a month now and i love it. It  gives me so much information  and helpful hints. Everyone is so helpful. So now i need to know if you can buy medication when you port. I will be on the Elation in Dec. and i am cruiseing  the 7 day Mexican Rivera.  (Porta Vallarta-  Matzalan-  Carbos san Lucas) Do they sell medicine there and or do you need a prescription.  I was just thinking if i could pick some up and  will i get in trouble on the ship. Medicine here in Arizona and the states is so exspensive.  Any comments would be appreciated. Thanks to all who reply  Keep up the good advice everyone  i enjoy  coming here daily.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m all up for saving money.  But on medicine in a third world country? I do it all the time.  According to my Doctor who worked for a pharmaceutical company before she went to med school… many of the medicines manufactured in other countries are done under license from US companies. You can also buy name brand meds at a much lower price.  In any case, I buy meds in Mexico with her blessing. My favorite place to buy meds is on Cozumel at http://gocozumel.com/pharmacy/ Many prescription meds are available in Mexico without a prescription… same exact medicines… at a much lower price.  There are also generic versions of medicines that are available in Mexico that are not available in the US.  Sometimes the prices on generic meds in Mexico are incredibly low compared to US prices. George in PA

I don’t find myself agreeing with George very often, but this time he got it right.  Drugs in Mexico are easily available, cheaper than in the USA and are the SAME EXACT drug (almost always from the SAME US based drug company). For the original poster, even if you don’t have a prescription for a drug you want, ask the Mexican pharmacist for a doctor.  He’s call a local physician who will either come to the store or send someone to pick you up.  For $20, he’ll give you a physical (generally, the ability to fish out the $20 bill) and will write you a LEGAL prescription from whichever drugs you want. Many class II drugs no longer available (or highly restricted) in the US can be had in Mexico.  Many drugs that are prescription in the US are OTC in Mexico. The major difference is how you’ll get them.  Where pills in the US come in a small bottle filled by a US pharmacist from a 500 or 1000 pill jar, in Mexico (and most other countries other than the US), they are shrink wrapped on a piece of cardboard or in a sealed container, generally in smaller quantities (20 pills per box v 60 from the local US pharmacist), but the cost will almost always be 1/2 or less for equal doses and amounts. Do some research before you leave, know what drugs you want (and what they cost here) and if you have US prescriptions, bring them along.   Know if there is a generic equivalent and what its name is (all the Mexican pharmacias have the physicians desk reference guide available).  Know the dosage you require. One last thing.  Many Mexican pharmacias take credit cards (that allows you a decent exchange rate) but some (usually the smaller ones) only take cash.  Know the exchange rate or have pesos handy. BTW, the major reason why drugs are cheaper outside the US is simple.   Scum sucking LAWYERS and lawsuits.  When was the last time you read of a multi million dollar lawsuit against a pharmaceutical company in Mexico? Chuck for a great deal on your next cruise, check out: www.cruisequick.com

Response:

Just one word of advice if you’re planning to stock up — even if you can get your meds without a prescription, have your doctor give you ’scrip, just in case U.S. Customs should raise an eyebrow, which might be more likely if you’re bringing back meds in quantity.

Absolutely correct.  As somebody mentioned, you can get a Mexican MD to write you a prescription and not risk having the drugs seized. Hello everyone its nice being able to post questions about anything that worries you.  I have been coming to this site for at least a month now and i love it. It  gives me so much information  and helpful hints. Everyone is so helpful. So now i need to know if you can buy medication when you port. I will be on the Elation in Dec. and i am cruiseing  the 7 day Mexican Rivera.  (Porta Vallarta-  Matzalan-  Carbos san Lucas) Do they sell medicine there and or do you need a prescription.  I was just thinking if i could pick some up and  will i get in trouble on the ship. Medicine here in Arizona and the states is so exspensive.  Any comments would be appreciated. Thanks to all who reply  Keep up the good advice everyone  i enjoy  coming here daily.

– Mason Barge "People who like this sort of thing will find this the sort of thing they like."         — Abraham Lincoln

Response:

Hi, Would you be willing to post the name/address/website of the pharmacy that you use in Canada? Thanks!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I purchase my meds in Canada. I fax them my prescription and they mail them. SUNNY<…….saves quite a large amount of money.

Response:

Do they sell medicine there and or do you need a prescription.  I was just thinking if i could pick some up and  will i get in trouble on the

You don`t need a prescription and you won`t get in trouble.

Response:

KJ  They do not have a web page but they do have an 800 #. If you want it e mail me. I shall be happy to give it to you. There are posters in this ng that I have given the # to. SUNNY<…..has saved many many dollars

Response:

Mazatlan has a terminal and there is a pharmacy in the terminal.  They will take your order and have it for you by the time you depart. You can NOT order controlled substances – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just one word of advice if you’re planning to stock up — even if you can get your meds without a prescription, have your doctor give you ’scrip, just in case U.S. Customs should raise an eyebrow, which might be more likely if you’re bringing back meds in quantity. Hello everyone its nice being able to post questions about anything that worries you.  I have been coming to this site for at least a month now and i love it. It  gives me so much information  and helpful hints. Everyone is so helpful. So now i need to know if you can buy medication when you port. I will be on the Elation in Dec. and i am cruiseing  the 7 day Mexican Rivera.  (Porta Vallarta-  Matzalan-  Carbos san Lucas) Do they sell medicine there and or do you need a prescription.  I was just thinking if i could pick some up and  will i get in trouble on the ship. Medicine here in Arizona and the states is so exspensive.  Any comments would be appreciated. Thanks to all who reply  Keep up the good advice everyone  i enjoy  coming here daily.

Response:

Mazatlan has a terminal and there is a pharmacy in the terminal.  They will take your order and have it for you by the time you depart. You can NOT order controlled substances

Interesting, as I just got a bottle of 100 Valium (generic diazepam) from the guy who runs that pharmacia the last time we were in Mazatlan.  Very nice guy.  Remembered us from a previous trip a year earlier.  He usually has the best price on Soma (an across the counter muscle relaxer). Class II’s are available.  You just have to know how to ask for them. Chuck for a great deal on your next cruise, check out: www.cruisequick.com

Response:

Interesting, as I just got a bottle of 100 Valium (generic diazepam)

— Charles

Response:

   You can purchase limited prescription drugs online at pharmacymex.com.    Have used them for years and have had no problems….they will ship anywhere in the U.S. in just days.

Bob & Amy

Response:

Not for me ; Got too good a health plan to have to actually PAY for drugs. Chuck for a great deal on your next cruise, check out: www.cruisequick.com

Response:

Hi Cathy, If is not a problem to buy medication in port, but realize the US Customs has an interesting perspective on this. If you are in possession of medication requiring a prescription but lack the prescription, they may react negatively. Their negativity can intensify if the quantities are substantial or the product is not declared. The ships themselves rarely react to such purchases because it is a common occurrence, but cooperate with government authorities.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello everyone its nice being able to post questions about anything that worries you.  I have been coming to this site for at least a month now and i love it. It  gives me so much information  and helpful hints. Everyone is so helpful. So now i need to know if you can buy medication when you port. I will be on the Elation in Dec. and i am cruiseing  the 7 day Mexican Rivera.  (Porta Vallarta-  Matzalan-  Carbos san Lucas) Do they sell medicine there and or do you need a prescription.  I was just thinking if i could pick some up and  will i get in trouble on the ship. Medicine here in Arizona and the states is so exspensive.  Any comments would be appreciated. Thanks to all who reply  Keep up the good advice everyone  i enjoy  coming here daily.

Response:

If is not a problem to buy medication in port, but realize the US Customs has an interesting perspective on this. If you are in possession of medication requiring a prescription but lack the prescription, they may react negatively.

Generally, you can bring a 3 month supply of any prescription med into the country and you don’t always need the prescription with you.    For the rules, look at http://www.customs.ustreas.gov/travel/med.htm The FDA policy is here: http://www.fda.gov/ora/compliance_ref/rpm_new2/ch9pers.html George in PA Countryside Travel www.countryside-travel.com

Response:

There is a pharmacy booth in the terminal building in Mazatlan.  They will not get you controlled substances, but anything else goes.  If for personal use, you place the medication in your luggage and that is the end of it.  Customs does NOT ask about it. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Hi Cathy, If is not a problem to buy medication in port, but realize the US Customs has an interesting perspective on this. If you are in possession of medication requiring a prescription but lack the prescription, they may react negatively. Their negativity can intensify if the quantities are substantial or the product is not declared. The ships themselves rarely react to such purchases because it is a common occurrence, but cooperate with government authorities. Hello everyone its nice being able to post questions about anything that worries you.  I have been coming to this site for at least a month now and i love it. It  gives me so much information  and helpful hints. Everyone is so helpful. So now i need to know if you can buy medication when you port. I will be on the Elation in Dec. and i am cruiseing  the 7 day Mexican Rivera.  (Porta Vallarta-  Matzalan-  Carbos san Lucas) Do they sell medicine there and or do you need a prescription.  I was just thinking if i could pick some up and  will i get in trouble on the ship. Medicine here in Arizona and the states is so exspensive.  Any comments would be appreciated. Thanks to all who reply  Keep up the good advice everyone  i enjoy  coming here daily.

Response:

Hello everyone its nice being able to post questions about anything that worries you.  I have been coming to this site for at least a month now and i love it. It  gives me so much information  and helpful hints. Everyone is so helpful. So now i need to know if you can buy medication when you port. I will be on the Elation in Dec. and i am cruiseing  the 7 day Mexican Rivera.  (Porta Vallarta-  Matzalan-  Carbos san Lucas) Do they sell medicine there and or do you need a prescription.  I was just thinking if i could pick some up and  will i get in trouble on the ship. Medicine here in Arizona and the states is so exspensive.  Any comments would be appreciated. Thanks to all who reply  Keep up the good advice everyone  i enjoy  coming here daily.

Response:

You do not make it very clear; but I presume you are wanting to ‘load up’ while in Mexico, to save money. I live near LA and many people drive to Tijuana for that purpose. In general there is no problem with the quality of the medicine . . . but one never knows. 99% of drugs (not sure about narcotics or pain medicines containing narcotics, such as more than over-the-counter amounts of codeine, etc.) need no Rx. Remember that most medications have generic equivalents or the generics are so close to what you are taking, it isn’t worth taking the chance. I wouldn’t, and don’t,  do it. The palest ink is better than the best memory.     –Chinese proverb There is no end to collecting books.    –Book of Ecclesiastes  To three possessions shalt thou look: Acquire a field, a friend, a book.    –Samuel haNagid, Vizier to the King of Granada

Response:

You can buy medication anywhere in the world, the question becomes is it legal, will you need a prescription, and how much can you legally bring back.  The customs department has a very good page on this, it’s at http://www.customs.gov/travel/med.htm Everything you want to know about bringing the stuff back is there.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello everyone its nice being able to post questions about anything that worries you.  I have been coming to this site for at least a month now and i love it. It  gives me so much information  and helpful hints. Everyone is so helpful. So now i need to know if you can buy medication when you port. I will be on the Elation in Dec. and i am cruiseing  the 7 day Mexican Rivera.  (Porta Vallarta-  Matzalan-  Carbos san Lucas) Do they sell medicine there and or do you need a prescription.  I was just thinking if i could pick some up and  will i get in trouble on the ship. Medicine here in Arizona and the states is so exspensive.  Any comments would be appreciated. Thanks to all who reply  Keep up the good advice everyone  i enjoy  coming here daily.

Response:

I’m all up for saving money.  But on medicine in a third world country?

I do it all the time.  According to my Doctor who worked for a pharmaceutical company before she went to med school… many of the medicines manufactured in other countries are done under license from US companies. You can also buy name brand meds at a much lower price.  In any case, I buy meds in Mexico with her blessing. My favorite place to buy meds is on Cozumel at http://gocozumel.com/pharmacy/ Many prescription meds are available in Mexico without a prescription… same exact medicines… at a much lower price.  There are also generic versions of medicines that are available in Mexico that are not available in the US.  Sometimes the prices on generic meds in Mexico are incredibly low compared to US prices. George in PA Countryside Travel www.countryside-travel.com

Response:

I purchase my meds in Canada. I fax them my prescription and they mail them. SUNNY<…….saves quite a large amount of money.

Response:

Just one word of advice if you’re planning to stock up — even if you can get your meds without a prescription, have your doctor give you ’scrip, just in case U.S. Customs should raise an eyebrow, which might be more likely if you’re bringing back meds in quantity.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello everyone its nice being able to post questions about anything that worries you.  I have been coming to this site for at least a month now and i love it. It  gives me so much information  and helpful hints. Everyone is so helpful. So now i need to know if you can buy medication when you port. I will be on the Elation in Dec. and i am cruiseing  the 7 day Mexican Rivera.  (Porta Vallarta-  Matzalan-  Carbos san Lucas) Do they sell medicine there and or do you need a prescription.  I was just thinking if i could pick some up and  will i get in trouble on the ship. Medicine here in Arizona and the states is so exspensive.  Any comments would be appreciated. Thanks to all who reply  Keep up the good advice everyone  i enjoy  coming here daily.

Response:

Wow, lots of information I didn’t know.  Thank’s for posting the URL for this informative site!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You can buy medication anywhere in the world, the question becomes is it legal, will you need a prescription, and how much can you legally bring back.  The customs department has a very good page on this, it’s at http://www.customs.gov/travel/med.htm Everything you want to know about bringing the stuff back is there. Hello everyone its nice being able to post questions about anything that worries you.  I have been coming to this site for at least a month now and i love it. It  gives me so much information  and helpful hints. Everyone is so helpful. So now i need to know if you can buy medication when you port. I will be on the Elation in Dec. and i am cruiseing  the 7 day Mexican Rivera.  (Porta Vallarta-  Matzalan-  Carbos san Lucas) Do they sell medicine there and or do you need a prescription.  I was just thinking if i could pick some up and  will i get in trouble on the ship. Medicine here in Arizona and the states is so exspensive.  Any comments would be appreciated. Thanks to all who reply  Keep up the good advice everyone  i enjoy  coming here daily.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m all up for saving money.  But on medicine in a third world country? I do it all the time.  According to my Doctor who worked for a pharmaceutical company before she went to med school… many of the medicines manufactured in other countries are done under license from US companies. You can also buy name brand meds at a much lower price.  In any case, I buy meds in Mexico with her blessing. My favorite place to buy meds is on Cozumel at http://gocozumel.com/pharmacy/ Many prescription meds are available in Mexico without a prescription… same exact medicines… at a much lower price.  There are also generic versions of medicines that are available in Mexico that are not available in the US.  Sometimes the prices on generic meds in Mexico are incredibly low compared to US prices. George in PA

I don’t find myself agreeing with George very often, but this time he got it right.  Drugs in Mexico are easily available, cheaper than in the USA and are the SAME EXACT drug (almost always from the SAME US based drug company). For the original poster, even if you don’t have a prescription for a drug you want, ask the Mexican pharmacist for a doctor.  He’s call a local physician who will either come to the store or send someone to pick you up.  For $20, he’ll give you a physical (generally, the ability to fish out the $20 bill) and will write you a LEGAL prescription from whichever drugs you want. Many class II drugs no longer available (or highly restricted) in the US can be had in Mexico.  Many drugs that are prescription in the US are OTC in Mexico. The major difference is how you’ll get them.  Where pills in the US come in a small bottle filled by a US pharmacist from a 500 or 1000 pill jar, in Mexico (and most other countries other than the US), they are shrink wrapped on a piece of cardboard or in a sealed container, generally in smaller quantities (20 pills per box v 60 from the local US pharmacist), but the cost will almost always be 1/2 or less for equal doses and amounts. Do some research before you leave, know what drugs you want (and what they cost here) and if you have US prescriptions, bring them along.   Know if there is a generic equivalent and what its name is (all the Mexican pharmacias have the physicians desk reference guide available).  Know the dosage you require. One last thing.  Many Mexican pharmacias take credit cards (that allows you a decent exchange rate) but some (usually the smaller ones) only take cash.  Know the exchange rate or have pesos handy. BTW, the major reason why drugs are cheaper outside the US is simple.   Scum sucking LAWYERS and lawsuits.  When was the last time you read of a multi million dollar lawsuit against a pharmaceutical company in Mexico? Chuck for a great deal on your next cruise, check out: www.cruisequick.com

Response:

Just one word of advice if you’re planning to stock up — even if you can get your meds without a prescription, have your doctor give you ’scrip, just in case U.S. Customs should raise an eyebrow, which might be more likely if you’re bringing back meds in quantity.

Absolutely correct.  As somebody mentioned, you can get a Mexican MD to write you a prescription and not risk having the drugs seized. Hello everyone its nice being able to post questions about anything that worries you.  I have been coming to this site for at least a month now and i love it. It  gives me so much information  and helpful hints. Everyone is so helpful. So now i need to know if you can buy medication when you port. I will be on the Elation in Dec. and i am cruiseing  the 7 day Mexican Rivera.  (Porta Vallarta-  Matzalan-  Carbos san Lucas) Do they sell medicine there and or do you need a prescription.  I was just thinking if i could pick some up and  will i get in trouble on the ship. Medicine here in Arizona and the states is so exspensive.  Any comments would be appreciated. Thanks to all who reply  Keep up the good advice everyone  i enjoy  coming here daily.

– Mason Barge "People who like this sort of thing will find this the sort of thing they like."         — Abraham Lincoln

Response:

Hi, Would you be willing to post the name/address/website of the pharmacy that you use in Canada? Thanks!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I purchase my meds in Canada. I fax them my prescription and they mail them. SUNNY<…….saves quite a large amount of money.

Response:

Do they sell medicine there and or do you need a prescription.  I was just thinking if i could pick some up and  will i get in trouble on the

You don`t need a prescription and you won`t get in trouble.

Response:

KJ  They do not have a web page but they do have an 800 #. If you want it e mail me. I shall be happy to give it to you. There are posters in this ng that I have given the # to. SUNNY<…..has saved many many dollars

Response:

Mazatlan has a terminal and there is a pharmacy in the terminal.  They will take your order and have it for you by the time you depart. You can NOT order controlled substances – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just one word of advice if you’re planning to stock up — even if you can get your meds without a prescription, have your doctor give you ’scrip, just in case U.S. Customs should raise an eyebrow, which might be more likely if you’re bringing back meds in quantity. Hello everyone its nice being able to post questions about anything that worries you.  I have been coming to this site for at least a month now and i love it. It  gives me so much information  and helpful hints. Everyone is so helpful. So now i need to know if you can buy medication when you port. I will be on the Elation in Dec. and i am cruiseing  the 7 day Mexican Rivera.  (Porta Vallarta-  Matzalan-  Carbos san Lucas) Do they sell medicine there and or do you need a prescription.  I was just thinking if i could pick some up and  will i get in trouble on the ship. Medicine here in Arizona and the states is so exspensive.  Any comments would be appreciated. Thanks to all who reply  Keep up the good advice everyone  i enjoy  coming here daily.

Response:

Mazatlan has a terminal and there is a pharmacy in the terminal.  They will take your order and have it for you by the time you depart. You can NOT order controlled substances

Interesting, as I just got a bottle of 100 Valium (generic diazepam) from the guy who runs that pharmacia the last time we were in Mazatlan.  Very nice guy.  Remembered us from a previous trip a year earlier.  He usually has the best price on Soma (an across the counter muscle relaxer). Class II’s are available.  You just have to know how to ask for them. Chuck for a great deal on your next cruise, check out: www.cruisequick.com

Response:

Interesting, as I just got a bottle of 100 Valium (generic diazepam)

— Charles

Response:

   You can purchase limited prescription drugs online at pharmacymex.com.    Have used them for years and have had no problems….they will ship anywhere in the U.S. in just days.

Bob & Amy

Response:

Not for me ; Got too good a health plan to have to actually PAY for drugs. Chuck for a great deal on your next cruise, check out: www.cruisequick.com

Response:

Hi Cathy, If is not a problem to buy medication in port, but realize the US Customs has an interesting perspective on this. If you are in possession of medication requiring a prescription but lack the prescription, they may react negatively. Their negativity can intensify if the quantities are substantial or the product is not declared. The ships themselves rarely react to such purchases because it is a common occurrence, but cooperate with government authorities.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello everyone its nice being able to post questions about anything that worries you.  I have been coming to this site for at least a month now and i love it. It  gives me so much information  and helpful hints. Everyone is so helpful. So now i need to know if you can buy medication when you port. I will be on the Elation in Dec. and i am cruiseing  the 7 day Mexican Rivera.  (Porta Vallarta-  Matzalan-  Carbos san Lucas) Do they sell medicine there and or do you need a prescription.  I was just thinking if i could pick some up and  will i get in trouble on the ship. Medicine here in Arizona and the states is so exspensive.  Any comments would be appreciated. Thanks to all who reply  Keep up the good advice everyone  i enjoy  coming here daily.

Response:

If is not a problem to buy medication in port, but realize the US Customs has an interesting perspective on this. If you are in possession of medication requiring a prescription but lack the prescription, they may react negatively.

Generally, you can bring a 3 month supply of any prescription med into the country and you don’t always need the prescription with you.    For the rules, look at http://www.customs.ustreas.gov/travel/med.htm The FDA policy is here: http://www.fda.gov/ora/compliance_ref/rpm_new2/ch9pers.html George in PA Countryside Travel www.countryside-travel.com

Response:

There is a pharmacy booth in the terminal building in Mazatlan.  They will not get you controlled substances, but anything else goes.  If for personal use, you place the medication in your luggage and that is the end of it.  Customs does NOT ask about it. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Hi Cathy, If is not a problem to buy medication in port, but realize the US Customs has an interesting perspective on this. If you are in possession of medication requiring a prescription but lack the prescription, they may react negatively. Their negativity can intensify if the quantities are substantial or the product is not declared. The ships themselves rarely react to such purchases because it is a common occurrence, but cooperate with government authorities. Hello everyone its nice being able to post questions about anything that worries you.  I have been coming to this site for at least a month now and i love it. It  gives me so much information  and helpful hints. Everyone is so helpful. So now i need to know if you can buy medication when you port. I will be on the Elation in Dec. and i am cruiseing  the 7 day Mexican Rivera.  (Porta Vallarta-  Matzalan-  Carbos san Lucas) Do they sell medicine there and or do you need a prescription.  I was just thinking if i could pick some up and  will i get in trouble on the ship. Medicine here in Arizona and the states is so exspensive.  Any comments would be appreciated. Thanks to all who reply  Keep up the good advice everyone  i enjoy  coming here daily.

Response:

Question:

    I’ve recently started taking Serevent and Flovent. In spite of rinsing my mouth after each use I have some rough, whitish, patches in my mouth. Can this be thrush? My Dr. prescribed antibiotics but it seems to be getting worse and now I’m wondering… If this is Thrush, isn’t it related to yeast infection? I know that antibiotics can cause yeast infections. I need to call the Dr. back this morning but I’m wondering if it’s time for a new Dr…. Debi

I’ve had Asthma for years and years.  The inhalers can cause thrush and I’ve had it a time or two. I’ve got a habit of taking the inhalers without actually getting out of bed in the middle of the night.  Once I took the pills that they give you for other yeast infections when it was fairly severe.  Usually There is a mouthwash that is prescribed that will kill off the yeast.  (Also when I’ve had thrush it’s been more in by thriat than in my mouth.)  Also, I’ve used the inhalers for 20+ years and have only had thrush maybe four times. Also, take it easy on your mouth.  A sip of water or swish is enough. Your mouth could be irritated from over brushing or from too harsh toothpaste and mouthwash ingredients.  The worst mouth problems I’ve had were caused by an anti-tartar mouthwash my former dentist pushed. My current dentist says lots of prople can’t tolerate them. Jo Before you buy.

Response:

No, it’s time to inform your Dr. about your symptoms.  If, upon examination, your Dr. determines you do indeed have Thrush there are various medicinal remedys available, as well as personal hygiene regimens you can adhere to for lessening the possiblity of future Thrush outbreaks.  Preventing Thrush outbreaks is much more your responsibility than your Dr.’s.

     Maybe you can help me. The insert that came with the medication said to rinse my mouth with water. I’ve been doing that and then brushing and flossing. What else should I be doing?     I’m still waiting for a call back from the Dr.’s office. Debi

Response:

(Debi) writes: No, it’s time to inform your Dr. about your symptoms.  If, upon examination, your Dr. determines you do indeed have Thrush there are various medicinal remedys available, as well as personal hygiene regimens you can adhere to for lessening the possiblity of future Thrush outbreaks.  Preventing Thrush outbreaks is much more your responsibility than your Dr.’s. Maybe you can help me. The insert that came with the medication said to rinse my mouth with water. I’ve been doing that and then brushing and flossing.

That may help in preventing a Thrush episode form occuring but will do nothing to control it once it’s begun. What else should I be doing?    I’m still waiting for a call back from the Dr.’s office.

You need to be seen by a medical professional as quickly as possible.  The longer a Thrush outbreak is left unattended the more difficult it is to place into remission.  If your regular health care professional can’t see you, recommend a covering physician or prescribe something over the phone, for whatever reason, then proceed to seek help elsewhere…. maybe your local hospital ER.  The white patches seen inside your mouth are not so problematic as those not so easily seen, those deeper down in your throat. Sheldon On a recent Night Court rerun, Judge Harry Stone had a wonderful line: "I try to keep an open mind, but not so open that my brains fall out."

Response:

    I’ve recently started taking Serevent and Flovent. In spite of rinsing my mouth after each use I have some rough, whitish, patches in my mouth. Can this be thrush? My Dr. prescribed antibiotics but it seems to be getting worse and now I’m wondering… If this is Thrush, isn’t it related to yeast infection? I know that antibiotics can cause yeast infections. I need to call the Dr. back this morning but I’m wondering if it’s time for a new Dr…. Debi

Response:

(Debi) writes:   I’ve recently started taking Serevent and Flovent. In spite of rinsing my mouth after each use I have some rough, whitish, patches in my mouth. Can this be thrush?

Probably so. My Dr. prescribed antibiotics but it seems to be getting worse and now I’m wondering… If this is Thrush, isn’t it related to yeast infection?

Thrush IS a yeast infection. I know that antibiotics can cause yeast infections. I need to call the Dr. back this morning but I’m wondering if it’s time for a new Dr…. Debi

No, it’s time to inform your Dr. about your symptoms.  If, upon examination, your Dr. determines you do indeed have Thrush there are various medicinal remedys available, as well as personal hygiene regimens you can adhere to for lessening the possiblity of future Thrush outbreaks.  Preventing Thrush outbreaks is much more your responsibility than your Dr.’s. Sheldon On a recent Night Court rerun, Judge Harry Stone had a wonderful line: "I try to keep an open mind, but not so open that my brains fall out."

Response:

Anyone here ever get oral thrush from using Albuterol? I have had a devil of a time.  Coated toungue and roof-of-mouth sores.  Also some kind of virus (feels like a cold) which has knocked me out. I have "exercise-induced" asthma (reactive airwaves) and take a few puffs of Albuterol before walking on treadmill, etc. This is the only thing I can think that could have caused the thrush (yes, I know I "should" have been rinsing my mouth out) and not rinsing after has been a hard lesson to learn. Doc gave me Nystain and Diflucan.  Seems to be clearing up, but I feel like crap.  Not sure if that is a result of the meds or the virus. Ugh.  Anybody have experience with this? — Sal Sessa / Events Photography Dallas, TX / USA

Response:

We started adding Acidophilus tablets to our daughters milk every morning. It’s a capsule so it can be opened and dumped.  I’m sure an adult can just take it like a regular pill. It adds the normal flora back to the body that can help prevent yeast infections.  It’s worked well to keep down the thrush in her mouth as well as the yeast infections in her privates. Ursula – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anyone here ever get oral thrush from using Albuterol? I have had a devil of a time.  Coated toungue and roof-of-mouth sores. Also some kind of virus (feels like a cold) which has knocked me out. I have "exercise-induced" asthma (reactive airwaves) and take a few puffs of Albuterol before walking on treadmill, etc. This is the only thing I can think that could have caused the thrush (yes, I know I "should" have been rinsing my mouth out) and not rinsing after has been a hard lesson to learn. Doc gave me Nystain and Diflucan.  Seems to be clearing up, but I feel like crap.  Not sure if that is a result of the meds or the virus. Ugh.  Anybody have experience with this? — Sal Sessa / Events Photography Dallas, TX / USA

Response:

We started adding Acidophilus tablets to our daughters milk every morning.

Thanks. I’m doing the same.  Also trying to avoid the little beasties favorite foods, e.g., sugars, milk, starches, etc. — Sal Sessa / Events Photography Dallas, TX / USA

Response:

Try using an AEROCHAMBER, they have been proven in multiple studies to reduce oropharyngeal deposition over and over again. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anyone here ever get oral thrush from using Albuterol? I have had a devil of a time.  Coated toungue and roof-of-mouth sores.  Also some kind of virus (feels like a cold) which has knocked me out. I have "exercise-induced" asthma (reactive airwaves) and take a few puffs of Albuterol before walking on treadmill, etc. This is the only thing I can think that could have caused the thrush (yes, I know I "should" have been rinsing my mouth out) and not rinsing after has been a hard lesson to learn. Doc gave me Nystain and Diflucan.  Seems to be clearing up, but I feel like crap.  Not sure if that is a result of the meds or the virus. Ugh.  Anybody have experience with this? — Sal Sessa / Events Photography Dallas, TX / USA

Response:

Albuterol does nothing to affect the oral flora and is not an immune modulator and thus cannot cause thrush. I don’ think that thrush makes one systemically ill but I am not certain of this. Other things can of course.

That’s what I thought also! I guess it must be a virus that I have, and what I think is thrush is actually just "cold sores," or something. Doctor said "thrush," though. Thanks. — Sal Sessa / Events Photography Dallas, TX / USA

Response:

Thrush does coat your tongue and throat with white areas.  I believe that we were told that Asthmacort and not Proventil can cause it…..the aerochamber works for our son. As well as washing his mouth out. — Suzie Politeness is the art of choosing among one’s real thoughts. —  Abel Stevens

Response:

Albuterol is not clinically shown to cause thrush. Are you taking any other medications?

Response:

Albuterol is not clinically shown to cause thrush. Are you taking any other medications?

Not really.  A little Flonase here and there, but lately almost "none" to speak of. I really don’t know how I got it (gone now, thanks to Nystatin & Diflucan.) Got a virus along with it that lasted about 10 days. Go figure. — Sal Sessa / Events Photography Dallas, TX / USA

Response:

If you have systemic Candida, the nystain and Diflucan would cause burn off which would make you feel like crap. check this web sit and you’ll learn about Candida – http://infoseek.go.com/?win=_search&sv=M6&lk=noframes&nh=10&ud9=IE5&q… da&oq=&url=http%3A//www.panix.com/%7Ecandida/&ti=The+Candida+Page&top= .  A friend of mine had the very same thing and he is going through Candid treatment.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anyone here ever get oral thrush from using Albuterol? I have had a devil of a time.  Coated toungue and roof-of-mouth sores. Also some kind of virus (feels like a cold) which has knocked me out. I have "exercise-induced" asthma (reactive airwaves) and take a few puffs of Albuterol before walking on treadmill, etc. This is the only thing I can think that could have caused the thrush (yes, I know I "should" have been rinsing my mouth out) and not rinsing after has been a hard lesson to learn. Doc gave me Nystain and Diflucan.  Seems to be clearing up, but I feel like crap.  Not sure if that is a result of the meds or the virus. Ugh.  Anybody have experience with this? — Sal Sessa / Events Photography Dallas, TX / USA

Response:

Oh another good product which I use is Yeast Defense.  You can get it in the nutrition part of your supermarket.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We started adding Acidophilus tablets to our daughters milk every morning. Thanks. I’m doing the same.  Also trying to avoid the little beasties favorite foods, e.g., sugars, milk, starches, etc. — Sal Sessa / Events Photography Dallas, TX / USA

Response:

Jackie, That’s really interesting and a new one for me.  I’m so glad there was something you could put together and that it did help. God Bless, Judy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks, Judy! I did finally speak with a nurse and she suggested a home solution to tide us over until I can get out to get it (DH got home too late to pick it up). Because this is the first prescription I’ve needed for the baby, the pharmacy needs my insurance card and of course the pharmacy (CVS) where the prescription was called in to doesn’t do deliveries ( For anybody else out there who might be interested in the home remedy, here it is: 1/4 tsp. of Baking Soda 1 to 2 drops of Ivory Liquid (YES, dish soap… almost any brand of the liquid dish soaps will do) 8 ounces of water Mix thoroughly and apply (with a soft face cloth) to affected areas. So far so good, almost immediately at his next feeding he was eating better and I am making sure that I rinse myself off after each nursing session so we don’t keep passing it back and forth! — Jackie M. SAHM to four wonderful kids: 9.5 (girl), 8 (girl), 21 months (boy), and 2 months (boy)!! Jackie, from my search, it appears you will have to use a prescription (Nystatin) from the doctor.  Many pharmacies deliver.  Are there any in your area that might deliver & save you from dragging all the munchkins out into the snow?  That way the doctor could just phone something in & you could have it sent out. Hugs, Judy It’s been about 8 years since I’ve had to deal with any baby having thrush — my eldest never had it, nor did my now 21 month old son. Now, apparently, at 2 months, I notice it on my son’s tongue — only his tongue. It’s not on the roof or sides of his mouth, but there is some whitish film on the insides of his lips. I’ve put a call into the pediatrician and am STILL waiting to hear back if they can call a prescription in, but I know there has to be something that can be done at home for this — right now it’s snowing at about 2 inches per hour and I am NOT really all that thrilled about popping all four kids into the car and going to the pharmacy in this weather! HELP! — Jackie M. SAHM to four wonderful kids: 9.5 (girl), 8 (girl), 21 months (boy), and 2 months (boy)!!

Response:

Thanks, Judy! I did finally speak with a nurse and she suggested a home solution to tide us over until I can get out to get it (DH got home too late to pick it up). Because this is the first prescription I’ve needed for the baby, the pharmacy needs my insurance card and of course the pharmacy (CVS) where the prescription was called in to doesn’t do deliveries ( For anybody else out there who might be interested in the home remedy, here it is: 1/4 tsp. of Baking Soda 1 to 2 drops of Ivory Liquid (YES, dish soap… almost any brand of the liquid dish soaps will do) 8 ounces of water Mix thoroughly and apply (with a soft face cloth) to affected areas. So far so good, almost immediately at his next feeding he was eating better and I am making sure that I rinse myself off after each nursing session so we don’t keep passing it back and forth! — Jackie M. SAHM to four wonderful kids: 9.5 (girl), 8 (girl), 21 months (boy), and 2 months (boy)!!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jackie, from my search, it appears you will have to use a prescription (Nystatin) from the doctor.  Many pharmacies deliver.  Are there any in your area that might deliver & save you from dragging all the munchkins out into the snow?  That way the doctor could just phone something in & you could have it sent out. Hugs, Judy It’s been about 8 years since I’ve had to deal with any baby having thrush — my eldest never had it, nor did my now 21 month old son. Now, apparently, at 2 months, I notice it on my son’s tongue — only his tongue. It’s not on the roof or sides of his mouth, but there is some whitish film on the insides of his lips. I’ve put a call into the pediatrician and am STILL waiting to hear back if they can call a prescription in, but I know there has to be something that can be done at home for this — right now it’s snowing at about 2 inches per hour and I am NOT really all that thrilled about popping all four kids into the car and going to the pharmacy in this weather! HELP! — Jackie M. SAHM to four wonderful kids: 9.5 (girl), 8 (girl), 21 months (boy), and 2 months (boy)!!

Response:

Jackie, from my search, it appears you will have to use a prescription (Nystatin) from the doctor.  Many pharmacies deliver.  Are there any in your area that might deliver & save you from dragging all the munchkins out into the snow?  That way the doctor could just phone something in & you could have it sent out. Hugs, Judy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It’s been about 8 years since I’ve had to deal with any baby having thrush — my eldest never had it, nor did my now 21 month old son. Now, apparently, at 2 months, I notice it on my son’s tongue — only his tongue. It’s not on the roof or sides of his mouth, but there is some whitish film on the insides of his lips. I’ve put a call into the pediatrician and am STILL waiting to hear back if they can call a prescription in, but I know there has to be something that can be done at home for this — right now it’s snowing at about 2 inches per hour and I am NOT really all that thrilled about popping all four kids into the car and going to the pharmacy in this weather! HELP! — Jackie M. SAHM to four wonderful kids: 9.5 (girl), 8 (girl), 21 months (boy), and 2 months (boy)!!

Response:

It’s been about 8 years since I’ve had to deal with any baby having thrush — my eldest never had it, nor did my now 21 month old son.  Now, apparently, at 2 months, I notice it on my son’s tongue — only his tongue. It’s not on the roof or sides of his mouth, but there is some whitish film on the insides of his lips. I’ve put a call into the pediatrician and am STILL waiting to hear back if they can call a prescription in, but I know there has to be something that can be done at home for this — right now it’s snowing at about 2 inches per hour and I am NOT really all that thrilled about popping all four kids into the car and going to the pharmacy in this weather! HELP! — Jackie M. SAHM to four wonderful kids: 9.5 (girl), 8 (girl), 21 months (boy), and 2 months (boy)!!

Response:

Question:

Here’s some stuff: http://www.umm.edu/patiented/articles/what_specific_drugs_used_preven… Leukotriene-Antagonists. Leukotriene-antagonists are anti-inflammatory agents that blocks leukotrienes, powerful immune system factors that are important in causing airway constriction. They include zileuton (Ziflo), zafirlukast (Accolate), montelukast (Singulair), and pranlukast (Ultair, Onon). These agents are being used in asthma and some physicians have observed a reduction in migraine frequency in asthmatic patients who also had these headaches. In one study that investigated their use for migraine prevention, more than half of patients experienced a reduction in frequency of severe attacks. They are not approved by the FDA for migraines, however, nor are they routinely used by physicians.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Has anybody hears about the use of Singulair tablets (normally used for hay fever and asthma) for the treatment of headaches.  From Google I got this Dr. Greene stuff http://www.drgreene.com/21_316.html and http://www.google.com/search?q=singulaire&sourceid=mozilla-search&sta…. Thanks!

Response:

I liked what it did for my allergies/sinus but after 3 wks of taking it i had problems with my gallbladder/liver.  I stopped taking it and everything went back to normal. tracey Here’s some stuff:

http://www.umm.edu/patiented/articles/what_specific_drugs_used_preven… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Leukotriene-Antagonists. Leukotriene-antagonists are anti-inflammatory agents that blocks leukotrienes, powerful immune system factors that are important in causing airway constriction. They include zileuton (Ziflo), zafirlukast (Accolate), montelukast (Singulair), and pranlukast (Ultair, Onon). These agents are being used in asthma and some physicians have observed a reduction in migraine frequency in asthmatic patients who also had these headaches. In one study that investigated their use for migraine prevention, more than half of patients experienced a reduction in frequency of severe attacks. They are not approved by the FDA for migraines, however, nor are they routinely used by physicians. Has anybody hears about the use of Singulair tablets (normally used for hay fever and asthma) for the treatment of headaches.  From Google I got this Dr. Greene stuff http://www.drgreene.com/21_316.html and

http://www.google.com/search?q=singulaire&sourceid=mozilla-search&sta…. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks!

Response:

Hey there Erik have you scraped her bottom of the barnacles and are going to ride her like a wild man this season?  The boat Erik the boat  ~grin~ Ronnie

Has anybody hears about the use of Singulair tablets (normally used for hay fever and asthma) for the treatment of headaches.  From Google I got this Dr. Greene stuff http://www.drgreene.com/21_316.html and

http://www.google.com/search?q=singulaire&sourceid=mozilla-search&sta… art=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was going to try it, but then my insurance wouldn’t fill it.  By then I found a different drug (seroquel) that worked great. Erik

Response:

I am starting to have some headaches, but since I’m on steroids, Advair, Albuterol, and God knows how many other drugs at this moment, it’s hard to say it’s actually the Singulair.  I can say it is the best allergy medication I’ve ever taken.  I’ve never had days like this where my nose wasn’t constantly dripping.  If I find it’s the Singulair giving me headaches, I’m going to try a 5 mg dose to see if that helps. Michelle

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I liked what it did for my allergies/sinus but after 3 wks of taking it i had problems with my gallbladder/liver.  I stopped taking it and everything went back to normal. tracey Here’s some stuff: http://www.umm.edu/patiented/articles/what_specific_drugs_used_preven… Leukotriene-Antagonists. Leukotriene-antagonists are anti-inflammatory agents that blocks leukotrienes, powerful immune system factors that are important in causing airway constriction. They include zileuton (Ziflo), zafirlukast (Accolate), montelukast (Singulair), and pranlukast (Ultair, Onon). These agents are being used in asthma and some physicians have observed a reduction in migraine frequency in asthmatic patients who also had these headaches. In one study that investigated their use for migraine prevention, more than half of patients experienced a reduction in frequency of severe attacks. They are not approved by the FDA for migraines, however, nor are they routinely used by physicians. Has anybody hears about the use of Singulair tablets (normally used for hay fever and asthma) for the treatment of headaches.  From Google I got this Dr. Greene stuff http://www.drgreene.com/21_316.html and http://www.google.com/search?q=singulaire&sourceid=mozilla-search&sta…. Thanks!

Response:

How did the doctor prescribe the Seroquel?  

What kind of doctor?  I’d recommend a psychiatrist that also suffers from migraines.  I’ve been very fortunate to find some very empathetic pdocs over the last few years.  It’s a whole different world and there is all sorts of drugs available to them that aren’t available to a neurologist. As for me, I showed up at a psychiatrist after persuing every other option.  According to him, I was suffering from classic anxiety attacks that were bathing my brain in adrenalin.  Beta blockers worked, but not very well.  Based on reports from another poster in the group, I asked for seroquel and he went along with it.  It proved to be a silver bullet for me. Ins companies have been starting to question seroquel because it’s being perscribed basically for sleep.  It’s a fairly expensive sleep medication, but if you’re suffering from daily migraines and it works, it’s well worth the cost. My pdoc had samples that I used for the first month.  I’d explain your ins situation and just ask for these.  If it works, you’ll know the fight is worth it. Keep in mind that seroquel is a powerful med.  Even at the lowest dose of 25mg, I’d recommend quartering the pill and working up.  I felt very groggy, tired, and light headed, but it was much better then a daily chronic migraine.   It’s usually perscribed for extremely agitated psychotics, so it may have profound effect effect on you.  For my first dose of 25mg, I slept for 16 hrs straight of badly needed sleep.  I worked up to 300mg, but I’ve weaned back down to 150mg.  Any lower and I go back to migraine hell. Also, keep in mind that because your ins company denies perscription, you can still purchase the medication yourself.  I know this can be a financial burden, but for me, it pales compared to the cost of not being able to work.  My perscription for 15 300mg (that I cut in half) runs me about $124/month before my ins pays half.  Money well spent. Erik

Response:

The boat Erik the boat  ~grin~

I was thinking boat and then I had to read it again to pick up the other meaning. Cat not on the beach yet.  It needs to repairs.  Maybe this weekend if it doesn’t rain. Erik

Response:

Erik, How did the doctor prescribe the Seroquel?  My neuro is trying to get this for me, but the insurance company says it’s an anti psychotic drug and using it for migraine prevention or insomnia is an off label use and therefore they will not cover it.  They’ve asked for him to cite two studies where Seroquel was used for insomnia before they will approve the prescription.  The doctor told me on Monday that he will look for the information, but I got a call today from his nurse saying that the prior authorization was denied. Maybe I should be looking for studies for allergies or migraine? Karen in San Diego – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Has anybody hears about the use of Singulair tablets (normally used for hay fever and asthma) for the treatment of headaches.  From Google I got this Dr. Greene stuff http://www.drgreene.com/21_316.html and http://www.google.com/search?q=singulaire&sourceid=mozilla-search&sta…. I was going to try it, but then my insurance wouldn’t fill it.  By then I found a different drug (seroquel) that worked great. Erik

Response:

I’ve never tried singulair,have tried Serquel {sp?} didnt help tho. I’ve tried benedril only helped allerigies,made go to sleep. MM – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I am starting to have some headaches, but since I’m on steroids, Advair, Albuterol, and God knows how many other drugs at this moment, it’s hard to say it’s actually the Singulair.  I can say it is the best allergy medication I’ve ever taken.  I’ve never had days like this where my nose wasn’t constantly dripping.  If I find it’s the Singulair giving me headaches, I’m going to try a 5 mg dose to see if that helps. Michelle I liked what it did for my allergies/sinus but after 3 wks of taking it i had problems with my gallbladder/liver.  I stopped taking it and everything went back to normal. tracey Here’s some stuff: http://www.umm.edu/patiented/articles/what_specific_drugs_used_preven… Leukotriene-Antagonists. Leukotriene-antagonists are anti-inflammatory agents that blocks leukotrienes, powerful immune system factors that are important in causing airway constriction. They include zileuton (Ziflo), zafirlukast (Accolate), montelukast (Singulair), and pranlukast (Ultair, Onon). These agents are being used in asthma and some physicians have observed a reduction in migraine frequency in asthmatic patients who also had these headaches. In one study that investigated their use for migraine prevention, more than half of patients experienced a reduction in frequency of severe attacks. They are not approved by the FDA for migraines, however, nor are they routinely used by physicians. Has anybody hears about the use of Singulair tablets (normally used for hay fever and asthma) for the treatment of headaches.  From Google I got this Dr. Greene stuff http://www.drgreene.com/21_316.html and http://www.google.com/search?q=singulaire&sourceid=mozilla-search&sta…. Thanks!

Response:

I’ll call around and see who has the Seroquel and for what price and since it would be without insurance I could fill it anywhere.

If 50mg worked for you, great!  Given that I was comatose for 16 hrs on my first dose, I was a little more cautious. Wow, that’s really good that it worked for you.  I’ve found the best prices at Sam’s and Walgreens.  It’s usually priced per dose, so you can buy fewer larger pills for a better deal.  I recommend a pill cutter. You could also get a pdoc to give you an exotic diagnosis that the ins company won’t challenge.  <hint  (Just consider life & health ins before you acquire such a label.) Erik

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve heard of people on here who have in combination with other medicatins…not sure which ones.  I’m taking it right now for my seasonal allergies and it works great for me.  We’ll see if it helps curb the migraines as well as I have chronic daily migraines. Michelle Has anybody hears about the use of Singulair tablets (normally used for hay fever and asthma) for the treatment of headaches.  From Google I got this Dr. Greene stuff http://www.drgreene.com/21_316.html and http://www.google.com/search?q=singulaire&sourceid=mozilla-search&sta…. Thanks!

I saw a post here some time ago from someone who was using it with, I think, Vioxx, a COX-2 inhibiter.  Vioxx is gone, but Celebrex is still available, and it might work with an ordinary NSAID, such as aspirin, ibuprofen, or naproxen.  I think I was able to find an article about Singulair alone on a MEDLINE search of montelukast (Singulair(R)) AND migraine.  Zaphirlukast (Accolate(R)) does about the same thing and a months worth is about 40% less expensive than Singulair, but is a twice-a-day dose schedule. The rationale presumably is that the combination blocks both parts of the chain from eicosenoic acid or arachidonic acid to two pro-inflammatory substances, leukotrienes or long-acting substance of anaphylaxis, an important intermediary in asthma, and prostaglandins.

Response:

Erik, Thanks for the info.  At first, I was given 20 25 mg pills as a sample and told to take one or two before bedtime.  I did this on a Friday night.  I woke up Saturday after eight glorious hours of sleep!  So, 50 mg should not have been my first dose, I should have titrated up, interesting, they didn’t tell me that. Second time, they only had four pill sample packs, so they gave me four pills.  I took two 25 mg pills the first night, then two again the second night.  The next night, sans seroquel, I took 30 mg of temazepam, but had break through awakenings throughout the night. Last night I took two 10 mg Ambien.  Surprise, got eight hours of sleep only interrupted once.  It seems like my brain gets used to a med, but after awhile I can go back to it for a short time.  Halcion did nothing, but Ambien is the same type of med.  What gives? I will pursue Seroquel through my insurance and if they still deny it after the doctor does his research, I may try a month or two of paying for it myself.  My neuro is a sleep specialist, you’d think they would trust him to prescribed off label without all the run around. I’ll call around and see who has the Seroquel and for what price and since it would be without insurance I could fill it anywhere. Thanks again. Karen – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How did the doctor prescribe the Seroquel?   What kind of doctor?  I’d recommend a psychiatrist that also suffers from migraines.  I’ve been very fortunate to find some very empathetic pdocs over the last few years.  It’s a whole different world and there is all sorts of drugs available to them that aren’t available to a neurologist. As for me, I showed up at a psychiatrist after persuing every other option.  According to him, I was suffering from classic anxiety attacks that were bathing my brain in adrenalin.  Beta blockers worked, but not very well.  Based on reports from another poster in the group, I asked for seroquel and he went along with it.  It proved to be a silver bullet for me. Ins companies have been starting to question seroquel because it’s being perscribed basically for sleep.  It’s a fairly expensive sleep medication, but if you’re suffering from daily migraines and it works, it’s well worth the cost. My pdoc had samples that I used for the first month.  I’d explain your ins situation and just ask for these.  If it works, you’ll know the fight is worth it. Keep in mind that seroquel is a powerful med.  Even at the lowest dose of 25mg, I’d recommend quartering the pill and working up.  I felt very groggy, tired, and light headed, but it was much better then a daily chronic migraine.   It’s usually perscribed for extremely agitated psychotics, so it may have profound effect effect on you.  For my first dose of 25mg, I slept for 16 hrs straight of badly needed sleep.  I worked up to 300mg, but I’ve weaned back down to 150mg.  Any lower and I go back to migraine hell. Also, keep in mind that because your ins company denies perscription, you can still purchase the medication yourself.  I know this can be a financial burden, but for me, it pales compared to the cost of not being able to work.  My perscription for 15 300mg (that I cut in half) runs me about $124/month before my ins pays half.  Money well spent. Erik

Response:

Has anybody hears about the use of Singulair tablets (normally used for hay fever and asthma) for the treatment of headaches.  From Google I got this Dr. Greene stuff http://www.drgreene.com/21_316.html and http://www.google.com/search?q=singulaire&sourceid=mozilla-search&sta…. Thanks!

Response:

I’ve heard of people on here who have in combination with other medicatins…not sure which ones.  I’m taking it right now for my seasonal allergies and it works great for me.  We’ll see if it helps curb the migraines as well as I have chronic daily migraines. Michelle

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Has anybody hears about the use of Singulair tablets (normally used for hay fever and asthma) for the treatment of headaches.  From Google I got this Dr. Greene stuff http://www.drgreene.com/21_316.html and http://www.google.com/search?q=singulaire&sourceid=mozilla-search&sta…. Thanks!

Response:

Has anybody hears about the use of Singulair tablets (normally used for hay fever and asthma) for the treatment of headaches.  From Google I got this Dr. Greene stuff http://www.drgreene.com/21_316.html and http://www.google.com/search?q=singulaire&sourceid=mozilla-search&sta….

I was going to try it, but then my insurance wouldn’t fill it.  By then I found a different drug (seroquel) that worked great. Erik

Response:

Clear DayHey Debbie, Watch all that jumping around – you might hit your head on the ceiling and…… "get a headache" Good for you. I am sure we are all happy for you. Go Girl Dan   I had my follow up visit to my neuro last week.  He finally decided that I needed preventative meds (originally he said that ONLY 3 headaches a month was not bad enough for them).  I had gotten to the point where I had almost daily headaches and had given up most days on treating them unless I couldn’t see to drive.  I have lived with these demons for 30+ years and some you live with and ignore.  ANYWAY, he had been to some drug rep meeting or something and had heard this news that people who had sinus problems and migraine were getting relief using Singulair daily.  Now, Singulair is actually an asthma prevention drug, so I don’t get the connection, but I have to tell you that for the first time in MONTHS I have not had a headache at all for almost an entire WEEK now!  HOORRAYYY!!  I know that my hormone headaches are only about a week or so away, and we will see how this treatment helps with those, but for now I am just so grateful that I have had some painfree days.  I am hoping also that the results from this will last for a while.  Most of the other treatments I have tried only lasted for a few months at best and then back to square one.   Anyone else heard about this?  My mom is getting it from her doc to try too.  I can actually jump up and down in joy and not be in pain.  It is wonderful…   —   Debby H

Response:

Clear DayI had my follow up visit to my neuro last week.  He finally decided that I needed preventative meds (originally he said that ONLY 3 headaches a month was not bad enough for them).  I had gotten to the point where I had almost daily headaches and had given up most days on treating them unless I couldn’t see to drive.  I have lived with these demons for 30+ years and some you live with and ignore.  ANYWAY, he had been to some drug rep meeting or something and had heard this news that people who had sinus problems and migraine were getting relief using Singulair daily.  Now, Singulair is actually an asthma prevention drug, so I don’t get the connection, but I have to tell you that for the first time in MONTHS I have not had a headache at all for almost an entire WEEK now!  HOORRAYYY!!  I know that my hormone headaches are only about a week or so away, and we will see how this treatment helps with those, but for now I am just so grateful that I have had some painfree days.  I am hoping also that the results from this will last for a while.  Most of the other treatments I have tried only lasted for a few months at best and then back to square one. Anyone else heard about this?  My mom is getting it from her doc to try too.  I can actually jump up and down in joy and not be in pain.  It is wonderful… — Debby H

Response:

Clear DayDebby, This all started when patients at the New England Center for Headache noticed that those who started taking Singulair for their asthma had a reduction in their migraines. They did a very small study there, and found that Singulair was an effective preventive for some of the participants in their small study. There are clinical trials being conducted now. — Teri Robert your About Guide to Headaches http://headaches.about.com visit our forum at: http://headaches.about.com/mpboards.htm

I had my follow up visit to my neuro last week.  He finally decided that I needed preventative meds (originally he said that ONLY 3 headaches a month was not bad enough for them).  I had gotten to the point where I had almost daily headaches and had given up most days on treating them unless I couldn’t see to drive.  I have lived with these demons for 30+ years and some you live with and ignore.  ANYWAY, he had been to some drug rep meeting or something and had heard this news that people who had sinus problems and migraine were getting relief using Singulair daily.  Now, Singulair is actually an asthma prevention drug, so I don’t get the connection, but I have to tell you that for the first time in MONTHS I have not had a headache at all for almost an entire WEEK now!  HOORRAYYY!!  I know that my hormone headaches are only about a week or so away, and we will see how this treatment helps with those, but for now I am just so grateful that I have had some painfree days.  I am hoping also that the results from this will last for a while.  Most of the other treatments I have tried only lasted for a few months at best and then back to square one. Anyone else heard about this?  My mom is getting it from her doc to try too. I can actually jump up and down in joy and not be in pain.  It is wonderful… — Debby H

Response:

Well, I am glad that they found it!  I know it might not last, most of the other treatments quit after a while, but I am just happy to (still) be under control.  I did get a doozy Monday morning after spending all day Sunday at the drag strip (had to cheer on my brother) in the sun with all that loud noise, but that was to be expected And it actually went away after only ONE dose of Maxalt. Still smiling…  the next test will be my hormone headache which is due in about a week, we will seeee… — Debby

Response:

BTDTDW (been there done that didn’t work) — but no side effects for me, which was in itself a wonder. –Julianne

Response:

Yes!  I tried it with no success, but my son tried it with wonderful results.  Didn’t completely get rid of his headaches,  but he had 80-90% improvement,and no side effects.  This is definitely worth trying. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anybody tried Singulair as a migraine preventive?

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Anybody tried Singulair as a migraine preventive?

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Question:

::Hi, Philip, ::No I didn’t know that.  Today I did NOT have a cig.  I hope to be smoke-free ::as of today… C*O*N*G*R*A*T*U*L*A*T*I*O*N*S!!!!! Wishing you continued success with being smoke-free. (((((Elise))))) Jackie ~*~When they discover the center of the universe, a lot of people will be disappointed to discover they are not it~*~           ~~ Bernard Bailey

That is SO WONDERFUL!!!  I am so proud of you! (((((((Elise))))))) Sally — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, Sally, My appt isn’t until Tuesday but at least I have that to look forward to. Same here with the leaves.  Then many seem to land right in front of my garage door. We keep the doors down so the leaves aren’t all in the garage. Any bites on the house? smiles, Elise I am SO GLAD you get to go to the doctor tomorrow.  You really need that appointment.  Isn’t this wind something else??  We have no trees in our yard, but thanks to the wind, I have about as many leaves as the rest of the neighbors.  Not only that, but the wind blew down my For Sale sign, and I had to put it back up, and the bird bath keeps filling up with leaves!!!!  Grab on to something and hold on so you don’t blow away!! ((((((((((((((((((u))))))))))))))))))))) Sally

Elise, I’ve got that exact same thing with my garage door. What’s up with that?  Why do all the leaves congregate right at the door?? No, so far we haven’t had an offers on the house.  I’m getting lookers about every other day now.  My aunt keeps telling me that all I need is just ONE buyer..so I’ve got my fingers crossed.  Thanks for asking. Sally — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Hi, Dawn, I wish I knew what to say to make it all better for you.  Not being an expert in anything psychological, I am not sure how suppressed feelings effect one’s well being, and if there is a benefit to getting them out.   Logic says yes, but that sure doesn’t help the way you are feeling.

***Right now I have mixed feelings over it.  I’ve wanted my emotional being back for a long time but now that it seems to be coming through I have some fears of how it will affect me.  I keep trying to remind myself that much of what I feel is natural and that’s it’s all been locked up in there for so long…  I need to remember to deep breath and do self-positive talk. I also wish I could help with the Wellbutrin. I have considered it myself to counterbalance my sedating (ha–not for me!) AD, but am not sure about the stimulating effect it is purported to have.   It does sound like it’s working for you to some degree. Weight loss is a good thing, right?  I’m with you there .

***Yes, weight loss has been an issue for me for a long time with the ADs. I really want to lose some weight before my daughter’s wedding.  I think I need to ask the phy asst what to expect from upping the med.  I really should be on 300 mgs by now but I took such a long time getting off the Zoloft hoping NOT to need an AD that I’m way behind where I should be.  Oh well, I’ll probably hear about that…ugh! I don’t know what else is happening in your life, but I hope that things get better and easier for you very soon.  If you posted about it, I apologize for missing it.  I miss a lot of posts.

***No, I haven’t posted about many of the issues going on in my life.  I always try to be the problem solver and not the person needing help.  Stupid me…at times. I hope things are going well for you, Dawn… smiles, Elise ((((((((((((Elise))))))))))))) Love, Dawn — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

– The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

::And yes there are many things going on in my life also now I am down to 1 ::cig a day (and have been for 2 weeks now). Dear Elise, It`s very important you tell your the NP on Tuesday that you have almost quit smoking. From a few of your posts today I get the feeling you are suffering from depression. Of course only your doctor can tell you that for sure. Smoking may have been a way of self-medicating your depression. I remember a famous NY baseball player in 97 that suffered a bad depression after he quit smoking. Just wanted to make sure you mention this to your doctor. (((((Elise)))))

I had the same thing happen but the other way around.  As soon as I started Nortriptyline, without trying or giving it any thought, I went from about 20 a day to 5 a day.  I wish I could just quit all together! Tono — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

::Hi, Philip, ::No I didn’t know that.  Today I did NOT have a cig.  I hope to be smoke-free ::as of today… C*O*N*G*R*A*T*U*L*A*T*I*O*N*S!!!!! Wishing you continued success with being smoke-free. (((((Elise))))) Jackie ~*~When they discover the center of the universe, a lot of people will be disappointed to discover they are not it~*~           ~~ Bernard Bailey — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <Gently snipped ::I am also taking Clonazepam 1mg twice daily and Inderal, as needed. ::Many different issues going on in my life right now – good things, stressful ::things and issues I have no control over. ::Any insight from anyone on Wellbutrin XL?  Or any thoughts from anyone…  I ::do have a doctor’s appointment scheduled for Tuesday if my daughter is able ::to take me since this is out of my safe driving zone. Dear Elise, I`m sorry you are feeling so out of sorts with yourself. You are one of the most beautiful people I know and it saddens me to think you feel so badly about yourself. <snip Jackie

Let me also say that I feel the same way as Jackie wrote. Tono — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Hi, Jackie, I did put the smoking on my list for the doctor’s appt.  I’m trying to do a short-term time line so I can have that to reference to during the appt. Thanks, Jackie. smiles, Elise

I take it that you’re aware of the fact that Wellbutrin is also marketed under the name of *Zyban* to help quit smoking? P. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Dear Elise, It`s very important you tell your the NP on Tuesday that you have almost quit smoking. From a few of your posts today I get the feeling you are suffering from depression. Of course only your doctor can tell you that for sure. Smoking may have been a way of self-medicating your depression. I remember a famous NY baseball player in 97 that suffered a bad depression after he quit smoking. Just wanted to make sure you mention this to your doctor. (((((Elise))))) Jackie ~*~When they discover the center of the universe, a lot of people will be disappointed to discover they are not it~*~          ~~ Bernard Bailey — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

– The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Hi, Philip, No I didn’t know that.  Today I did NOT have a cig.  I hope to be smoke-free as of today… smiles, Elise

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, Jackie, I did put the smoking on my list for the doctor’s appt.  I’m trying to do a short-term time line so I can have that to reference to during the appt. Thanks, Jackie. smiles, Elise I take it that you’re aware of the fact that Wellbutrin is also marketed under the name of *Zyban* to help quit smoking? P. Dear Elise, It`s very important you tell your the NP on Tuesday that you have almost quit smoking. From a few of your posts today I get the feeling you are suffering from depression. Of course only your doctor can tell you that for sure. Smoking may have been a way of self-medicating your depression. I remember a famous NY baseball player in 97 that suffered a bad depression after he quit smoking. Just wanted to make sure you mention this to your doctor. (((((Elise))))) Jackie ~*~When they discover the center of the universe, a lot of people will be disappointed to discover they are not it~*~          ~~ Bernard Bailey — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

– The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Hi, Chip, I do feel many of those behaviors are part of what I am going through. Suicidal no, but wishing it would all end at times has been running through my mind lately. I thought about going back on the Zoloft but I just don’t can’t take the weight gain.  I’m going to do a small time line of how things have come down lately so I have something that the phy asst can see and be able to question me from. smiles, Elise

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I`m wondering if you are depressed. With depression comes stinkin thinkin and low sense of self-worth. I think Elise is depressed. It seemed to start when she weaned off the Zoloft. She also felt a little better when she started the Wellbutrin. Which is also consistant with depression.  I weaned off Zoloft several years ago to see how I’d do without it, and got depressed, so I restarted the Zoloft and the depression resolved. Chip below are diagnostic criteria for Major Depressive Episode: Criteria for Major Depressive Episode A. Five (or more) of the following symptoms have been present during the same 2-week period and represent a change from previous functioning; at least one of the symptoms is either    (1) depressed mood or    (2) loss of interest or pleasure. Note: Do not include symptoms that are clearly due to a general medical condition, or mood-incongruent delusions or hallucinations. (1) depressed mood most of the day, nearly every day, as indicated by either subjective report (e.g., feels sad or empty) or observation made by others (e.g., appears tearful). Note: In children and adolescents, can be irritable mood. (2) markedly diminished interest or pleasure in all, or almost all, activities most of the day, nearly every day (as indicated by either subjective account or observation made by others) (3) significant weight loss when not dieting or weight gain (e.g., a change of more than 5% of body weight in a month), or decrease or increase in appetite nearly every day. Note: In children, consider failure to make expected weight gains. (4) Insomnia or Hypersomnia nearly every day (5) psychomotor agitation or retardation nearly every day (observable by others, not merely subjective feelings of restlessness or being slowed down) (6) fatigue or loss of energy nearly every day (7) feelings of worthlessness or excessive or inappropriate guilt (which may be delusional) nearly every day (not merely self-reproach or guilt about being sick) (8) diminished ability to think or concentrate, or indecisiveness, nearly every day (either by subjective account or as observed by others) (9) recurrent thoughts of death (not just fear of dying), recurrent suicidal ideation without a specific plan, or a suicide attempt or a specific plan for committing suicide B. The symptoms do not meet criteria for a Mixed Episode (of manic depression) C. The symptoms cause clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning. D. The symptoms are not due to the direct physiological effects of a substance (e.g., a drug of abuse, a medication) or a general medical condition (e.g., hypothyroidism). E. The symptoms are not better accounted for by Bereavement, i.e., after the loss of a loved one, the symptoms persist for longer than 2 months or are characterized by marked functional impairment, morbid preoccupation with worthlessness, suicidal ideation, psychotic symptoms, or psychomotor retardation. Reprinted without the permission from the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, fourth Edition. Copyright 1994 American Psychiatric Association — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

– The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Hi, Sally, My appt isn’t until Tuesday but at least I have that to look forward to. Same here with the leaves.  Then many seem to land right in front of my garage door. We keep the doors down so the leaves aren’t all in the garage. Any bites on the house? smiles, Elise – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am SO GLAD you get to go to the doctor tomorrow.  You really need that appointment.  Isn’t this wind something else??  We have no trees in our yard, but thanks to the wind, I have about as many leaves as the rest of the neighbors.  Not only that, but the wind blew down my For Sale sign, and I had to put it back up, and the bird bath keeps filling up with leaves!!!!  Grab on to something and hold on so you don’t blow away!! ((((((((((((((((((u))))))))))))))))))))) Sally — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

– The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Hi, Jackie, I did put the smoking on my list for the doctor’s appt.  I’m trying to do a short-term time line so I can have that to reference to during the appt. Thanks, Jackie. smiles, Elise – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dear Elise, It`s very important you tell your the NP on Tuesday that you have almost quit smoking. From a few of your posts today I get the feeling you are suffering from depression. Of course only your doctor can tell you that for sure. Smoking may have been a way of self-medicating your depression. I remember a famous NY baseball player in 97 that suffered a bad depression after he quit smoking. Just wanted to make sure you mention this to your doctor. (((((Elise))))) Jackie ~*~When they discover the center of the universe, a lot of people will be

disappointed to discover they are not it~*~           ~~ Bernard Bailey — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

– The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, Sally, Thank you for your caring reply.  Yeah, I know I do and have had a lot on my plate.  I agree with your pdoc about the meds not always being the problem but how much is in the equation.  Very wise.  I was thinking of that very same thing a while ago before I took a nap.  I always have to be my problem solver…<g My daughter is able to go with me so at least I now have that "hope" to live on for my appointment. I hope you aren’t getting blown away with the wind. smiles, Elise Hi, all, Well I feel like melting down is exactly what I am doing now.  I feel ugly about my inner self and the world around me.  I have nothing nice to say to anyone directly in my life and actually think of ugly things I could say to them.  Maybe I’ve suppressed my feelings for so long that everything is coming to a head. I did make the med change to Wellbutrin XL, finally, about the beginning of October.  Prior to that I was attempting to wean off the Zoloft and was down to such a minute amount and starting to feel this ugliness inside me and extremely short tempered.  This is when I went onto the Wellbutrin XL 150 mgs and started to feel a bit better.  I increased it again last week by 75 mgs.  The short temperedness has gone away. The only plus side is that I lost some weight about 3 weeks into the process of weaning off the Zoloft and going onto the Wellbutrin XL.  I am aware that I am finally experiencing some feelings which has been an issue for me for years due to them being blunted.  I feel like I’m in a catch 22 right now. Go back on a different AD then possibly weight goes on with that and my feelings get blunted or stay on the Wellbutrin XL and either I continue to feel this ugliness or maybe given time things will change since the short-temperedness did go away. I am also taking Clonazepam 1mg twice daily and Inderal, as needed. Many different issues going on in my life right now – good things, stressful things and issues I have no control over. Any insight from anyone on Wellbutrin XL?  Or any thoughts from anyone…  I do have a doctor’s appointment scheduled for Tuesday if my daughter is able to take me since this is out of my safe driving zone. smiles, Elise ((((((((Elise))))))))))) I was afraid of something like this.  Not because of the meds, but because of the situational stuff going on in your life.  A med change in the middle of all that just complicates matters. I can’t answer the med questions either, but I know there are people here who can.  Personally, I wouldn’t let weight gain even be a factor about whether to take a med or not.  I mean, we’re not talking about 30 pounds or anything.  Just a few, and you can up your excersize and work them off, so don’t let that even be a factor in what you decide on doing about your meds. Oh, I do hope you can make your appointment!  Tell your daughter it’s REAL important that you go.  You really need to talk to your pdoc about the symptoms you are having.  And also, I will say this.  When we found out my mother was dying I talked to my pdoc about whether we should do a med change or something to help me through it.  He was an older man. I liked him so much and he was so wise.  He just kind of looked at me and said "There’s no magic pill for situations like this." — Realize that you are under pressure from all sides of you, and factor that into the equation too.  It’s more than just the meds.  You have so much on your plate that it’s no wonder you’re melting down.  Even someone without anxiety issues would be doing the same thing. (((((((((((Elise))))))))))  you are always there for all of us.  I hope we can be there for you.  I hope some others here can give you advice about the meds, and you know, my inbox is always open to you if you need to vent. Love, Sally

Elise, I am SO GLAD you get to go to the doctor tomorrow.  You really need that appointment.  Isn’t this wind something else??  We have no trees in our yard, but thanks to the wind, I have about as many leaves as the rest of the neighbors.  Not only that, but the wind blew down my For Sale sign, and I had to put it back up, and the bird bath keeps filling up with leaves!!!!  Grab on to something and hold on so you don’t blow away!! ((((((((((((((((((u))))))))))))))))))))) Sally — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

I`m wondering if you are depressed. With depression comes stinkin thinkin and low sense of self-worth.

I think Elise is depressed. It seemed to start when she weaned off the Zoloft. She also felt a little better when she started the Wellbutrin. Which is also consistant with depression.  I weaned off Zoloft several years ago to see how I’d do without it, and got depressed, so I restarted the Zoloft and the depression resolved. Chip below are diagnostic criteria for Major Depressive Episode: Criteria for Major Depressive Episode A. Five (or more) of the following symptoms have been present during the same 2-week period and represent a change from previous functioning; at least one of the symptoms is either    (1) depressed mood or    (2) loss of interest or pleasure. Note: Do not include symptoms that are clearly due to a general medical condition, or mood-incongruent delusions or hallucinations. (1) depressed mood most of the day, nearly every day, as indicated by either subjective report (e.g., feels sad or empty) or observation made by others (e.g., appears tearful). Note: In children and adolescents, can be irritable mood. (2) markedly diminished interest or pleasure in all, or almost all, activities most of the day, nearly every day (as indicated by either subjective account or observation made by others) (3) significant weight loss when not dieting or weight gain (e.g., a change of more than 5% of body weight in a month), or decrease or increase in appetite nearly every day. Note: In children, consider failure to make expected weight gains. (4) Insomnia or Hypersomnia nearly every day (5) psychomotor agitation or retardation nearly every day (observable by others, not merely subjective feelings of restlessness or being slowed down) (6) fatigue or loss of energy nearly every day (7) feelings of worthlessness or excessive or inappropriate guilt (which may be delusional) nearly every day (not merely self-reproach or guilt about being sick) (8) diminished ability to think or concentrate, or indecisiveness, nearly every day (either by subjective account or as observed by others) (9) recurrent thoughts of death (not just fear of dying), recurrent suicidal ideation without a specific plan, or a suicide attempt or a specific plan for committing suicide B. The symptoms do not meet criteria for a Mixed Episode (of manic depression) C. The symptoms cause clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning. D. The symptoms are not due to the direct physiological effects of a substance (e.g., a drug of abuse, a medication) or a general medical condition (e.g., hypothyroidism). E. The symptoms are not better accounted for by Bereavement, i.e., after the loss of a loved one, the symptoms persist for longer than 2 months or are characterized by marked functional impairment, morbid preoccupation with worthlessness, suicidal ideation, psychotic symptoms, or psychomotor retardation. Reprinted without the permission from the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, fourth Edition. Copyright 1994 American Psychiatric Association — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

::And yes there are many things going on in my life also now I am down to 1 ::cig a day (and have been for 2 weeks now). Dear Elise, It`s very important you tell your the NP on Tuesday that you have almost quit smoking. From a few of your posts today I get the feeling you are suffering from depression. Of course only your doctor can tell you that for sure. Smoking may have been a way of self-medicating your depression. I remember a famous NY baseball player in 97 that suffered a bad depression after he quit smoking. Just wanted to make sure you mention this to your doctor. (((((Elise))))) Jackie ~*~When they discover the center of the universe, a lot of people will be disappointed to discover they are not it~*~           ~~ Bernard Bailey — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, all, Well I feel like melting down is exactly what I am doing now.  I feel ugly about my inner self and the world around me.  I have nothing nice to say to anyone directly in my life and actually think of ugly things I could say to them.  Maybe I’ve suppressed my feelings for so long that everything is coming to a head. I did make the med change to Wellbutrin XL, finally, about the beginning of October.  Prior to that I was attempting to wean off the Zoloft and was down to such a minute amount and starting to feel this ugliness inside me and extremely short tempered.  This is when I went onto the Wellbutrin XL 150 mgs and started to feel a bit better.  I increased it again last week by 75 mgs.  The short temperedness has gone away. The only plus side is that I lost some weight about 3 weeks into the process of weaning off the Zoloft and going onto the Wellbutrin XL.  I am aware that I am finally experiencing some feelings which has been an issue for me for years due to them being blunted.  I feel like I’m in a catch 22 right now. Go back on a different AD then possibly weight goes on with that and my feelings get blunted or stay on the Wellbutrin XL and either I continue to feel this ugliness or maybe given time things will change since the short-temperedness did go away. I am also taking Clonazepam 1mg twice daily and Inderal, as needed. Many different issues going on in my life right now – good things, stressful things and issues I have no control over. Any insight from anyone on Wellbutrin XL?  Or any thoughts from anyone…  I do have a doctor’s appointment scheduled for Tuesday if my daughter is able to take me since this is out of my safe driving zone. smiles, Elise

Dearest Elise, I wish I knew what to say to make it all better for you.  Not being an expert in anything psychological, I am not sure how suppressed feelings effect one’s well being, and if there is a benefit to getting them out.   Logic says yes, but that sure doesn’t help the way you are feeling. I also wish I could help with the Wellbutrin. I have considered it myself to counterbalance my sedating (ha–not for me!) AD, but am not sure about the stimulating effect it is purported to have.   It does sound like it’s working for you to some degree. Weight loss is a good thing, right?  I’m with you there . I don’t know what else is happening in your life, but I hope that things get better and easier for you very soon.  If you posted about it, I apologize for missing it.  I miss a lot of posts. ((((((((((((Elise))))))))))))) Love, Dawn — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Hi, Jackie, Thank you for your support.  I will be seeing a phy asst who works under the Psychiatrist I used to see.  He just is so difficult to get an appointment with that I have found it easier on myself to see the PA instead. For some odd reason many articles about depression came my way today.  I’ve read them all and will be asking the PA about them.  One I found very interesting was the Vitamin B Deficiency checklist.  Wow, I could relate to everything the article said and the checklist was me on the dot. I’ll see what the appointment brings and keep myself moving one step at a time until then. smiles, Elise

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <Gently snipped ::I am also taking Clonazepam 1mg twice daily and Inderal, as needed. ::Many different issues going on in my life right now – good things, stressful ::things and issues I have no control over. ::Any insight from anyone on Wellbutrin XL?  Or any thoughts from anyone…  I ::do have a doctor’s appointment scheduled for Tuesday if my daughter is able ::to take me since this is out of my safe driving zone. Dear Elise, I`m sorry you are feeling so out of sorts with yourself. You are one of the most beautiful people I know and it saddens me to think you feel so badly about yourself. What kind of doctor would you be seeing on Tuesday? I hope it is a psychiatrist. He would be the best person to determine what may be going on. It doesn`t appear to be an issue with wellbutrin being this started before you even started it. I`m wondering if you are depressed. With depression comes stinkin thinkin and low sense of self-worth. Another option would be to see a therapist every week for a few months. I think it would do you a lot of good to explore these thoughts and emotions you are having. Keep talking to us, we`ll do our best to help and support you. (((((Elise))))) Jackie ~*~When they discover the center of the universe, a lot of people will be

disappointed to discover they are not it~*~           ~~ Bernard Bailey — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

– The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Hi, Chip, Hi, all, Well I feel like melting down is exactly what I am doing now.  I feel ugly about my inner self and the world around me. Those are thoughts (cognitive), not feelings (emotions). Negative thoughts lead to negative feelings. I have had the same thoughts and consequent feelings when I’m under a lot of stress.

***True but I am finding myself crying a lot today and feeling off kilter. I have nothing nice to say to anyone directly in my life and actually

think of ugly things I could say to them.  Maybe I’ve suppressed my feelings for so long that everything is coming to a head. Could be. Or maybe you’re under a lot of stress right now which  leads to negative thoughts and feelings about oneself and the world.

***I hope it is the stress and I can find a ay to break it all down into smaller pieces and deal with it. I did make the med change to Wellbutrin XL, finally, about the beginning of October.  Prior to that I was attempting to wean off the Zoloft and was down to such a minute amount and starting to feel this ugliness inside me and extremely short tempered. Irritability could be due to Zoloft withdrawal or depression. Or anything that makes one feel uncomfortable. When I’m depressed I get irritable.

***TFortunately, the extreme irritability went away after I started on the Wellbutrin XL now I get these ugly thoughts about people maybe over something they done or said to me and I just want to throw it right back in their face.  This is truly not me.  I’ve always been one to take the higher road even when i was more tempting to take the lower road. This is when I went onto the Wellbutrin XL 150 mgs and started to feel a bit better. Better in what way?

***The irritability and agitation have gone away.  I increased it again last week by 75 mgs.  The short temperedness has gone away. The only plus side is that I lost some weight about 3 weeks into the process of weaning off the Zoloft and going onto the Wellbutrin XL.  I am aware that I am finally experiencing some feelings which has been an issue for me for years due to them being blunted. Do you mean blunted by meds?

***No.  I haven’t been able to cry, show true happiness or joy, even get really mad.  I’ve had the Zoloft there keeping me at such an even par that excitement or fury didn’t appeal or bother me. What feelings and emotions have you blunted?

***Happiness, sadness, joy, excitement, anger, etc… I feel like I’m in a catch 22 right now. Go back on a different AD then possibly weight goes on with that and my feelings get blunted or stay on the Wellbutrin XL and either I continue to feel this ugliness or maybe given time things will change since the short-temperedness did go away. Since you have several factors going on in your life right now, it’s difficult to speculate how changing just one (such as a med change) would effect how you think and feel.

***I have been on many of the different ADs and feel I have a sense of how I feel when on or off of them. And yes there are many things going on in my life also now I am down to 1 cig a day (and have been for 2 weeks now).  I don’t feel I have any desire or cravings for a cig outside of the one I have in the a.m.  I have wondered today about the nicotine though.  What if any role after almost 3 months of weaning off them (some mornings not even thinkuing about having a cig.) if this could be a problem also. What do you think has led to your irritablility?

***Good question?  Weaning off  Zoloft?  Going on the Wellbutrin XL? Quitting smoking?  A combination of everything… I am also taking Clonazepam 1mg twice daily and Inderal, as needed. Many different issues going on in my life right now – good things, stressful things and issues I have no control over. What don’t you have control over?

***Work especially.  It’s been a disappointment and lack of confidence in the executive dirctor for several years for the majority of the office. When it truly gets down to dealing with the situation which we did we have "The Good Old Boys" show up at a staff meeting and  basically tell US to be quiet, lay low, clean your houses, do your job…  So no support there which says she runs the show.  Very disappointing and sad for an agency to be run by such an inept person…ugh! (((Elise))), you have a lot of stresses occuring in your life right now. Both going on Wellbuitrin, and coming off Zoloft can be stressful. Plus your daughter’s shower and wedding are stresses. They need alot of planning. If anyone has enough stress on them, they can feel uncomfortable and irritable, and the whole world can start looking ugly. Below are a list of negative "core beliefs". They may be helpful to you. Maybe they apply to you at this time.

***Chip, from reading the list of "core beliefs", goodness I fit into so many right now.  I will forward these to work and read them off and on the next few days to give me the strength to get through.  I know in time I will make a turn around but it’s so difficult when you feel you are right in the middle of the storm and have to ride it out. Thanks, Chip. smiles, Elise – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Chip Core Beliefs Core beliefs are one’s most central ideas about the self. Aaron Beck theorizes that negative core beliefs fall into two broad categories (see below): those associated with helplessness and those associated with unlovability. Some patients have core beliefs that fall in one category; others have core beliefs in both categories. These core beliefs develop in childhood as the child interacts with significant others and encounters a series of situations. For most of their lives most people may maintain relatively positive core beliefs. Negative core beliefs may surface only during times of psychological distress. Negative core beliefs are usually global, overgeneralized and absolute. When a core belief is activated, the patient is easily able to process information that supports it, but often fails to recognize or distorts information that is contrary to it. The cognitive therapist attempts to identify and modify negative core beliefs. Helpless core beliefs: I am helpless I am powerless I am out of control I am weak I am vulnerable I am needy I am trapped I am inadequate I am ineffective I am incompetent I am a failure I am disrespected Unlovable core beliefs: I am unlovable I am unlikable I am undesirable I am unattractive I am unwanted I am uncared for I am bad I am unworthy I am different I am bound to be rejected I am bound to be abandoned I am bound to be alone — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

– The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, all, Well I feel like melting down is exactly what I am doing now.  I feel ugly about my inner self and the world around me.  I have nothing nice to say to anyone directly in my life and actually think of ugly things I could say to them.  Maybe I’ve suppressed my feelings for so long that everything is coming to a head. I did make the med change to Wellbutrin XL, finally, about the beginning of October.  Prior to that I was attempting to wean off the Zoloft and was down to such a minute amount and starting to feel this ugliness inside me and extremely short tempered.  This is when I went onto the Wellbutrin XL 150 mgs and started to feel a bit better.  I increased it again last week by 75 mgs.  The short temperedness has gone away. The only plus side is that I lost some weight about 3 weeks into the process of weaning off the Zoloft and going onto the Wellbutrin XL.  I am aware that I am finally experiencing some feelings which has been an issue for me for years due to them being blunted.  I feel like I’m in a catch 22 right now. Go back on a different AD then possibly weight goes on with that and my feelings get blunted or stay on the Wellbutrin XL and either I continue to feel this ugliness or maybe given time things will change since the short-temperedness did go away. I am also taking Clonazepam 1mg twice daily and Inderal, as needed. Many different issues going on in my life right now – good things, stressful things and issues I have no control over. Any insight from anyone on Wellbutrin XL?  Or any thoughts from anyone…  I do have a doctor’s appointment scheduled for Tuesday if my daughter is able to take me since this is out of my safe driving zone. smiles, Elise

((((((((Elise))))))))))) I was afraid of something like this.  Not because of the meds, but because of the situational stuff going on in your life.  A med change in the middle of all that just complicates matters. I can’t answer the med questions either, but I know there are people here who can.  Personally, I wouldn’t let weight gain even be a factor about whether to take a med or not.  I mean, we’re not talking about 30 pounds or anything.  Just a few, and you can up your excersize and work them off, so don’t let that even be a factor in what you decide on doing about your meds. Oh, I do hope you can make your appointment!  Tell your daughter it’s REAL important that you go.  You really need to talk to your pdoc about the symptoms you are having.  And also, I will say this.  When we found out my mother was dying I talked to my pdoc about whether we should do a med change or something to help me through it.  He was an older man. I liked him so much and he was so wise.  He just kind of looked at me and said "There’s no magic pill for situations like this." — Realize that you are under pressure from all sides of you, and factor that into the equation too.  It’s more than just the meds.  You have so much on your plate that it’s no wonder you’re melting down.  Even someone without anxiety issues would be doing the same thing. (((((((((((Elise))))))))))  you are always there for all of us.  I hope we can be there for you.  I hope some others here can give you advice about the meds, and you know, my inbox is always open to you if you need to vent. Love, Sally — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Hi, Sally, Thank you for your caring reply.  Yeah, I know I do and have had a lot on my plate.  I agree with your pdoc about the meds not always being the problem but how much is in the equation.  Very wise.  I was thinking of that very same thing a while ago before I took a nap.  I always have to be my problem solver…<g My daughter is able to go with me so at least I now have that "hope" to live on for my appointment. I hope you aren’t getting blown away with the wind. smiles, Elise

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, all, Well I feel like melting down is exactly what I am doing now.  I feel ugly about my inner self and the world around me.  I have nothing nice to say to anyone directly in my life and actually think of ugly things I could say to them.  Maybe I’ve suppressed my feelings for so long that everything is coming to a head. I did make the med change to Wellbutrin XL, finally, about the beginning of October.  Prior to that I was attempting to wean off the Zoloft and was down to such a minute amount and starting to feel this ugliness inside me and extremely short tempered.  This is when I went onto the Wellbutrin XL 150 mgs and started to feel a bit better.  I increased it again last week by 75 mgs.  The short temperedness has gone away. The only plus side is that I lost some weight about 3 weeks into the process of weaning off the Zoloft and going onto the Wellbutrin XL.  I am aware that I am finally experiencing some feelings which has been an issue for me for years due to them being blunted.  I feel like I’m in a catch 22 right now. Go back on a different AD then possibly weight goes on with that and my feelings get blunted or stay on the Wellbutrin XL and either I continue to feel this ugliness or maybe given time things will change since the short-temperedness did go away. I am also taking Clonazepam 1mg twice daily and Inderal, as needed. Many different issues going on in my life right now – good things, stressful things and issues I have no control over. Any insight from anyone on Wellbutrin XL?  Or any thoughts from anyone…  I do have a doctor’s appointment scheduled for Tuesday if my daughter is able to take me since this is out of my safe driving zone. smiles, Elise ((((((((Elise))))))))))) I was afraid of something like this.  Not because of the meds, but because of the situational stuff going on in your life.  A med change in the middle of all that just complicates matters. I can’t answer the med questions either, but I know there are people here who can.  Personally, I wouldn’t let weight gain even be a factor about whether to take a med or not.  I mean, we’re not talking about 30 pounds or anything.  Just a few, and you can up your excersize and work them off, so don’t let that even be a factor in what you decide on doing about your meds. Oh, I do hope you can make your appointment!  Tell your daughter it’s REAL important that you go.  You really need to talk to your pdoc about the symptoms you are having.  And also, I will say this.  When we found out my mother was dying I talked to my pdoc about whether we should do a med change or something to help me through it.  He was an older man. I liked him so much and he was so wise.  He just kind of looked at me and said "There’s no magic pill for situations like this." — Realize that you are under pressure from all sides of you, and factor that into the equation too.  It’s more than just the meds.  You have so much on your plate that it’s no wonder you’re melting down.  Even someone without anxiety issues would be doing the same thing. (((((((((((Elise))))))))))  you are always there for all of us.  I hope we can be there for you.  I hope some others here can give you advice about the meds, and you know, my inbox is always open to you if you need to vent. Love, Sally — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

– The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

<Gently snipped ::I am also taking Clonazepam 1mg twice daily and Inderal, as needed. ::Many different issues going on in my life right now – good things, stressful ::things and issues I have no control over. ::Any insight from anyone on Wellbutrin XL?  Or any thoughts from anyone…  I ::do have a doctor’s appointment scheduled for Tuesday if my daughter is able ::to take me since this is out of my safe driving zone. Dear Elise, I`m sorry you are feeling so out of sorts with yourself. You are one of the most beautiful people I know and it saddens me to think you feel so badly about yourself. What kind of doctor would you be seeing on Tuesday? I hope it is a psychiatrist. He would be the best person to determine what may be going on. It doesn`t appear to be an issue with wellbutrin being this started before you even started it. I`m wondering if you are depressed. With depression comes stinkin thinkin and low sense of self-worth. Another option would be to see a therapist every week for a few months. I think it would do you a lot of good to explore these thoughts and emotions you are having. Keep talking to us, we`ll do our best to help and support you. (((((Elise))))) Jackie ~*~When they discover the center of the universe, a lot of people will be disappointed to discover they are not it~*~           ~~ Bernard Bailey — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Hi, Tono, Thank you for your kind words.  I have also been on Clonazepam for a few years now so don’t think that’s my problem.  It’s odd how much depression material I came cross today and not even looking for it.  I will talk with the phy. asst. on Tuesday and discuss some things with her. smiles, Elise

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, all, Well I feel like melting down is exactly what I am doing now.  I feel ugly about my inner self and the world around me.  I have nothing nice to say to anyone directly in my life and actually think of ugly things I could say to them.  Maybe I’ve suppressed my feelings for so long that everything is coming to a head. I did make the med change to Wellbutrin XL, finally, about the beginning of October.  Prior to that I was attempting to wean off the Zoloft and was down to such a minute amount and starting to feel this ugliness inside me and extremely short tempered.  This is when I went onto the Wellbutrin XL 150 mgs and started to feel a bit better.  I increased it again last week by 75 mgs.  The short temperedness has gone away. The only plus side is that I lost some weight about 3 weeks into the process of weaning off the Zoloft and going onto the Wellbutrin XL.  I am aware that I am finally experiencing some feelings which has been an issue for me for years due to them being blunted.  I feel like I’m in a catch 22 right now. Go back on a different AD then possibly weight goes on with that and my feelings get blunted or stay on the Wellbutrin XL and either I continue to feel this ugliness or maybe given time things will change since the short-temperedness did go away. I am also taking Clonazepam 1mg twice daily and Inderal, as needed. Many different issues going on in my life right now – good things, stressful things and issues I have no control over. Any insight from anyone on Wellbutrin XL?  Or any thoughts from anyone…  I do have a doctor’s appointment scheduled for Tuesday if my daughter is able to take me since this is out of my safe driving zone. smiles, Elise Hi Elise, I wish so much that I could help in some way, but I don’t know anything about Zoloft or Wellbutrin.  Clonazepam is a different story, I’ve been on it for ? 4 or 5 years?  I completely lost track of when I started it.   Anyway, if you are just starting it, that can blunt your emotions a bit, but that goes away fairly fast.  I’m on 6mg’s/day. I just want to say that you have always been a great regular here and over the years you have helped me personally and on the group, and I’m very thankful you are a part of this great group of people. (((((Elise))))) Tono — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

– The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, all, Well I feel like melting down is exactly what I am doing now.  I feel ugly about my inner self and the world around me.  I have nothing nice to say to anyone directly in my life and actually think of ugly things I could say to them.  Maybe I’ve suppressed my feelings for so long that everything is coming to a head. I did make the med change to Wellbutrin XL, finally, about the beginning of October.  Prior to that I was attempting to wean off the Zoloft and was down to such a minute amount and starting to feel this ugliness inside me and extremely short tempered.  This is when I went onto the Wellbutrin XL 150 mgs and started to feel a bit better.  I increased it again last week by 75 mgs.  The short temperedness has gone away. The only plus side is that I lost some weight about 3 weeks into the process of weaning off the Zoloft and going onto the Wellbutrin XL.  I am aware that I am finally experiencing some feelings which has been an issue for me for years due to them being blunted.  I feel like I’m in a catch 22 right now. Go back on a different AD then possibly weight goes on with that and my feelings get blunted or stay on the Wellbutrin XL and either I continue to feel this ugliness or maybe given time things will change since the short-temperedness did go away. I am also taking Clonazepam 1mg twice daily and Inderal, as needed. Many different issues going on in my life right now – good things, stressful things and issues I have no control over. Any insight from anyone on Wellbutrin XL?  Or any thoughts from anyone…  I do have a doctor’s appointment scheduled for Tuesday if my daughter is able to take me since this is out of my safe driving zone. smiles, Elise

Hi Elise, I wish so much that I could help in some way, but I don’t know anything about Zoloft or Wellbutrin.  Clonazepam is a different story, I’ve been on it for ? 4 or 5 years?  I completely lost track of when I started it.   Anyway, if you are just starting it, that can blunt your emotions a bit, but that goes away fairly fast.  I’m on 6mg’s/day. I just want to say that you have always been a great regular here and over the years you have helped me personally and on the group, and I’m very thankful you are a part of this great group of people. (((((Elise))))) Tono — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Hi, all, Well I feel like melting down is exactly what I am doing now.  I feel ugly about my inner self and the world around me.

Those are thoughts (cognitive), not feelings (emotions). Negative thoughts lead to negative feelings. I have had the same thoughts and consequent feelings when I’m under a lot of stress. I have nothing nice to say to anyone directly in my life and actually think of ugly things I could say to them.  Maybe I’ve suppressed my feelings for so long that everything is coming to a head.

Could be. Or maybe you’re under a lot of stress right now which  leads to negative thoughts and feelings about oneself and the world. I did make the med change to Wellbutrin XL, finally, about the beginning of October.  Prior to that I was attempting to wean off the Zoloft and was down to such a minute amount and starting to feel this ugliness inside me and extremely short tempered.

Irritability could be due to Zoloft withdrawal or depression. Or anything that makes one feel uncomfortable. When I’m depressed I get irritable. This is when I went onto the Wellbutrin XL 150 mgs and started to feel a bit better.

Better in what way?  I increased it again last week by 75 mgs.  The short temperedness has gone away. The only plus side is that I lost some weight about 3 weeks into the process of weaning off the Zoloft and going onto the Wellbutrin XL.  I am aware

that I am finally experiencing some feelings which has been an issue for me for years due to them being blunted.

Do you mean blunted by meds? What feelings and emotions have you blunted? I feel like I’m in a catch 22 right now. Go back on a different AD then possibly weight goes on with that and my feelings get blunted or stay on the Wellbutrin XL and either I continue to feel this ugliness or maybe given time things will change since the short-temperedness did go away.

Since you have several factors going on in your life right now, it’s difficult to speculate how changing just one (such as a med change) would effect how you think and feel. What do you think has led to your irritablility? I am also taking Clonazepam 1mg twice daily and Inderal, as needed. Many different issues going on in my life right now – good things, stressful things and issues I have no control over.

What don’t you have control over? (((Elise))), you have a lot of stresses occuring in your life right now. Both going on Wellbuitrin, and coming off Zoloft can be stressful. Plus your daughter’s shower and wedding are stresses. They need alot of planning. If anyone has enough stress on them, they can feel uncomfortable and irritable, and the whole world can start looking ugly. Below are a list of negative "core beliefs". They may be helpful to you. Maybe they apply to you at this time. Chip Core Beliefs Core beliefs are one’s most central ideas about the self. Aaron Beck theorizes that negative core beliefs fall into two broad categories (see below): those associated with helplessness and those associated with unlovability. Some patients have core beliefs that fall in one category; others have core beliefs in both categories. These core beliefs develop in childhood as the child interacts with significant others and encounters a series of situations. For most of their lives most people may maintain relatively positive core beliefs. Negative core beliefs may surface only during times of psychological distress. Negative core beliefs are usually global, overgeneralized and absolute. When a core belief is activated, the patient is easily able to process information that supports it, but often fails to recognize or distorts information that is contrary to it. The cognitive therapist attempts to identify and modify negative core beliefs. Helpless core beliefs: I am helpless I am powerless I am out of control I am weak I am vulnerable I am needy I am trapped I am inadequate I am ineffective I am incompetent I am a failure I am disrespected Unlovable core beliefs: I am unlovable I am unlikable I am undesirable I am unattractive I am unwanted I am uncared for I am bad I am unworthy I am different I am bound to be rejected I am bound to be abandoned I am bound to be alone — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Hi, all, Well I feel like melting down is exactly what I am doing now.  I feel ugly about my inner self and the world around me.  I have nothing nice to say to anyone directly in my life and actually think of ugly things I could say to them.  Maybe I’ve suppressed my feelings for so long that everything is coming to a head. I did make the med change to Wellbutrin XL, finally, about the beginning of October.  Prior to that I was attempting to wean off the Zoloft and was down to such a minute amount and starting to feel this ugliness inside me and extremely short tempered.  This is when I went onto the Wellbutrin XL 150 mgs and started to feel a bit better.  I increased it again last week by 75 mgs.  The short temperedness has gone away. The only plus side is that I lost some weight about 3 weeks into the process of weaning off the Zoloft and going onto the Wellbutrin XL.  I am aware that I am finally experiencing some feelings which has been an issue for me for years due to them being blunted.  I feel like I’m in a catch 22 right now. Go back on a different AD then possibly weight goes on with that and my feelings get blunted or stay on the Wellbutrin XL and either I continue to feel this ugliness or maybe given time things will change since the short-temperedness did go away. I am also taking Clonazepam 1mg twice daily and Inderal, as needed. Many different issues going on in my life right now – good things, stressful things and issues I have no control over. Any insight from anyone on Wellbutrin XL?  Or any thoughts from anyone…  I do have a doctor’s appointment scheduled for Tuesday if my daughter is able to take me since this is out of my safe driving zone. smiles, Elise — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Question:

Hanging on by my nails.  Moved to Georgia.  My ex and Maria came too to try to keep family together for her.  I am assistant to a professor and go back out for teaching this season (next month) if can get energy up . . . could not handle effexor withdrawal so I put myself back on this weekend.  I need my zyprexa, but can’t have it.  Side effects put me in this damn wheel chair.  Not a single friend here.  I know Aware here, but not together enough to ask to meet yet.  Hard time doing my work — any work — really feel scared and hopeless and I am so aware that in the end the sick must have willpower or they can simply end up on a curb with dirty matted hair . . . very scared. Rosena  

Response:

Hanging on by my nails.  Moved to Georgia.  My ex and Maria came too to try to keep family together for her.  I am assistant to a professor and go back out for teaching this season (next month) if can get energy up . . . could not handle effexor withdrawal so I put myself back on this weekend.  I need my zyprexa, but can’t have it.  Side effects put me in this damn wheel chair.  Not a single friend here.  I know Aware here, but not together enough to ask to meet yet.  Hard time doing my work — any work — really feel scared and hopeless and I am so aware that in the end the sick must have willpower or they can simply end up on a curb with dirty matted hair . . . very scared. Rosena  

hi rosena.  i’m in sc.  met aware once,  she is nice.  mabey we could have an atlanta meet? dennis Death Be Not Proud by John Donne: Death be not proud, though some have called thee Mighty and dreadful, for, thou art not so,

Response:

Hanging on by my nails.  Moved to Georgia.  My ex and Maria came too to try to keep family together for her.  I am assistant to a professor and go back out for teaching this season (next month) if can get energy up . . . could not handle effexor withdrawal so I put myself back on this weekend.  I need my zyprexa, but can’t have it.  Side effects put me in this damn wheel chair. Not a single friend here.  I know Aware here, but not together enough to ask to meet yet.  Hard time doing my work — any work — really feel scared and hopeless and I am so aware that in the end the sick must have willpower or they can simply end up on a curb with dirty matted hair . . . very scared. Rosena  

Hello ) Sorry you’re having it so tough at the moment – but good luck with the new job! Whiskery Hugs {{{{{Rosena}}}}} — —  Whiskers

Response:

i am slowly going insane being invisible

But you’re NOT, you’re probably lonely. My therp reminds me all the time: "Social isolation is considered severe punishment in prison."

Response:

i am slowly going insane being invisible

Honey, I wasn’t even here yesterday.  But I am now, and you’re not invisible. ***** Melissa "The wood is tired, and the wood is old. But we’ll make it fine if the weather holds. But if the weather holds, then we’ll have missed the point. That’s where I need to go." –Indigo Girls

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i am slowly going insane being invisible

Response:

i am slowly going insane being invisible

I can see you. Mary Beth

Response:

Well met, Adam. Boy ARE you in the right place. Birds of a feather and all that. I hate the insomnia. It sucks the most because I know next comes the deep depression.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, i am new to this group, and from what i have read so far i will fit in just cosy. I have now been up for 47 hours, and although i am real tired as soon as my head hits the pillow i wake up again. The thought s in my head just dont stop.. You are useless, whats the point, nobody wants you… you cant even committ suicide without screwing up….so i sit here in front of my pc moping, waching the weekend drift by, not seeing anyone, not talking to any one. Occasionaly speaking on icq to an aquaintance, but then they rush off and do stuff constructive in their busy lives, and i sit and clean out my hard drive. Tomorrow is Monday, and i return to work. carry out the day and return to my pc….God I am so sad… what is the point??

Response:

Welcome to the jungle! Welcome to the jungle! It’s gonna bring you down. huh!     Guns and Roses Sorry just being dramatic.  :^) Gloria

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Well, i am new to this group, and from what i have read so far i will fit in just cosy. I have now been up for 47 hours, and although i am real tired as soon as my head hits the pillow i wake up again. The thought s in my head just dont stop.. You are useless, whats the point, nobody wants you… you cant even committ suicide without screwing up….so i sit here in front of my pc moping, waching the weekend drift by, not seeing anyone, not talking to any one. Occasionaly speaking on icq to an aquaintance, but then they rush off and do stuff constructive in their busy lives, and i sit and clean out my hard drive. Tomorrow is Monday, and i return to work. carry out the day and return to my pc….God I am so sad… what is the point??

Welcome to ASD. Sincerely Stewart — The Metaphor Man  *and*  The Great Defender of the Self (remove the SPAMBLOCK) Please send me an e-mail copy of your posted response.

Response:

Well, i am new to this group, and from what i have read so far i will fit in just cosy. I have now been up for 47 hours, and although i am real tired as soon as my head hits the pillow i wake up again. The thought s in my head just dont stop.. You are useless, whats the point, nobody wants you… you cant even committ suicide without screwing up….so i sit here in front of my pc moping, waching the weekend drift by, not seeing anyone, not talking to any one. Occasionaly speaking on icq to an aquaintance, but then they rush off and do stuff constructive in their busy lives, and i sit and clean out my hard drive. Tomorrow is Monday, and i return to work. carry out the day and return to my pc….God I am so sad… what is the point??

Response:

Welcome to ASD.  I am in the minority concerning sleep habits.  When I go into "the pit," I become hypersomniac.  A couple years ago, I went through a stretch in which I slept 14-15 hours per day.  Of course, the waking hours were living hell.  Plus, that much sleep (fitful sleep, I might add) is disorienting. It seems to have the end effect of no sleep at all.  Anyway, I hope you get some sleep.  Keep posting. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, i am new to this group, and from what i have read so far i will fit in just cosy. I have now been up for 47 hours, and although i am real tired as soon as my head hits the pillow i wake up again. The thought s in my head just dont stop.. You are useless, whats the point, nobody wants you… you cant even committ suicide without screwing up….so i sit here in front of my pc moping, waching the weekend drift by, not seeing anyone, not talking to any one. Occasionaly speaking on icq to an aquaintance, but then they rush off and do stuff constructive in their busy lives, and i sit and clean out my hard drive. Tomorrow is Monday, and i return to work. carry out the day and return to my pc….God I am so sad… what is the point??

Before you buy.

Response:

Thank you all for the greetings, i dozed off at the keyboard. Lillith I am there. I am alienating the friends i have, and i dont mean to

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well met, Adam. Boy ARE you in the right place. Birds of a feather and all that. I hate the insomnia. It sucks the most because I know next comes the deep depression.

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Question:

You seem to be missing my point.  If you are as desparate as you keep saying I don’t understand why you don’t just go have the treatment.  You say you are treatment resistant.  Are you really, or are you just resistant to treatment? You can’t shove it down someone else’s throat while avoiding it yourself. I am not dismissing your situation.  I really feel sorry for the shape you say you are in.  What does bother me is that you sit here and dismiss everyone elses problems like they don’t matter.  You can’t possibly know the situations that other people are in.  How about 30 years of semi-living?  How about attempted su*c*de and no one cared, didn’t even know?  How about throwing friends out the window because you are too tired and depressed to give them the time of day?  How about 30 years of excuses?  Maybe it isn’t major to you, but it sure can be hell on the ones suffering, not to mention the families they created.  I could go on and on, but I hope you can at least get the jest of what I am trying to say.  Who knows, maybe there was some major depression thrown in along the way. All I know is that it is just as hard on us as yours is on you.  You have to stop with all the assumptions, you don’t know.

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The odds of Tylenol actually killing you is low.

Eric!!  Arrgh. If you take a full bottle of extra-strength Tylenol and don’t go to the hospital for the next few days, the odds of Tylenol actually killing you are about 100%. Denise

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Eric!!  Arrgh. If you take a full bottle of extra-strength Tylenol and don’t go to the hospital for the next few days, the odds of Tylenol actually killing you are about 100%. Denise Awww come on now. How come that isnt in that book "Final Exit?" I think your full of crap. Eric

Okay… since you want to press it…  :-) I haven’t read Final Exit, but if it’s not in there, I imagine that’s because: 1) It’s a horrible way to die — very painful and slow, over a period of days or even a couple of weeks; 2) There is a good chance you’ll recover if someone finds you and gets you to the hospital within the first day for treatment (because there are chemical antidotes that can be administered); and 3) If you do survive, you might be left with permanent liver damage. So, I can see why someone writing a "how-to" book like Final Exit would not want to list Tylenol overdose as a recommended method.   Still, people use it frequently.  Some choose it because that’s what they have access to and they know it will work, and others because that’s what they have access to and they *don’t* realize it will work. It’s an especially big problem among teenagers — swallowing a bunch of Tylenol as a suicidal gesture, not realizing how lethal it can be. Also, because Tylenol is perceived to be safe, friends and family don’t always think to get it out of the home of somenoe who is suicidal. Some countries have even looked at limiting how many Tylenol can be bought at one time in order to curb its use in suicides. Anyway, just because you told me I’m full of crap (:-

Question:

get a Rx for Xanax ( generic name = alprazolam ) when this happens, take 2 mg right away give it 20 minutes to kick in I’m on 40 mg Paxil / day and it took a while to get going, but I would say 10 weeks is long enough.  Maybe you would do better on a different SSRI. There are a lot of them.  Ask your doctor about trying a different one. — Larry – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi! This is my first post so please be gentle! I’ve been on Seroxat(Paxil) (30mg/day) for about 10 weeks for panic attacks / depression… it seems to help (most of the time)… however there are still occasions where I lose control in a big way…. Over the last week, I’ve been experiencing a couple of times, what I can only describe as "electric shocks"… similar to a just before a panic attack but rather than lasting a second or two it lasts for hours… with "shocks" every 10-15 seconds. Last night was agony… I had an appointment … I couldn’t remember whether it was 6:15pm or 6:30pm… so walking there I stopped outside a newagents (to get a paper to read if I had to wait)… it was closed. I stopped… turned round waked away… stopped…  walked back… stopped… I felt an electric bolt on the inside of my left arm…. my heart starts to beat… I started to panic… I feel as if I’m about to have a panic attack… but it never quite gets there… the shock starts repeating regularly… by the time I got to my appointment… I was a reck… I walked in the room and broke down… couldn’t talk at all… after a few minutes I decided that I really couldn’t go through with it and I rush out. Finally got home… somewhere safe… but the shocks were still going … I wanted to phone someone… to calm me down and reassure me…  but I really don’t want to impose… 5 hours later I make the call… they are out…I leave a message hoping they might phone me back… by 3am the shock are still going…. and I finally fall asleep of exhuastion… I’ve never had anything like this before… has anyone else? Any ideas what it is or how to cope with it? I really don’t want to go through this again. Mark

Response:

Hi! This is my first post so please be gentle! I’ve been on Seroxat(Paxil) (30mg/day) for about 10 weeks for panic attacks / depression… it seems to help (most of the time)… however there are still occasions where I lose control in a big way…. Over the last week, I’ve been experiencing a couple of times, what I can only describe as "electric shocks"… similar to a just before a panic attack but rather than lasting a second or two it lasts for hours… with "shocks" every 10-15 seconds. Last night was agony… I had an appointment … I couldn’t remember whether it was 6:15pm or 6:30pm… so walking there I stopped outside a newagents (to get a paper to read if I had to wait)… it was closed. I stopped… turned round waked away… stopped…  walked back… stopped… I felt an electric bolt on the inside of my left arm…. my heart starts to beat… I started to panic… I feel as if I’m about to have a panic attack… but it never quite gets there… the shock starts repeating regularly… by the time I got to my appointment… I was a reck… I walked in the room and broke down… couldn’t talk at all… after a few minutes I decided that I really couldn’t go through with it and I rush out. Finally got home… somewhere safe… but the shocks were still going … I wanted to phone someone… to calm me down and reassure me…  but I really don’t want to impose… 5 hours later I make the call… they are out…I leave a message hoping they might phone me back… by 3am the shock are still going…. and I finally fall asleep of exhuastion… I’ve never had anything like this before… has anyone else? Any ideas what it is or how to cope with it? I really don’t want to go through this again. Mark

Response:

what youre describing is EXACTLY what i experienced during effexor withdrawal.  i would be worried about some sort of med reaction, and i would CALL MY SHRINK IMMEDIATELY, and tell him word for word what you posted here about symptoms, maybe even read it to him over the phone – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Over the last week, I’ve been experiencing a couple of times, what I can only describe as "electric shocks"… similar to a just before a panic attack but rather than lasting a second or two it lasts for hours… with "shocks" every 10-15 seconds. Last night was agony… I had an appointment … I couldn’t remember whether it was 6:15pm or 6:30pm… so walking there I stopped outside a newagents (to get a paper to read if I had to wait)… it was closed. I stopped… turned round waked away… stopped…  walked back… stopped… I felt an electric bolt on the inside of my left arm…. my heart starts to beat… I started to panic… I feel as if I’m about to have a panic attack… but it never quite gets there… the shock starts repeating regularly… by the time I got to my appointment… I was a reck… I walked in the room and broke down… couldn’t talk at all… after a few minutes I decided that I really couldn’t go through with it and I rush out. Finally got home… somewhere safe… but the shocks were still going … I wanted to phone someone… to calm me down and reassure me…  but I really don’t want to impose… 5 hours later I make the call… they are out…I leave a message hoping they might phone me back… by 3am the shock are still going…. and I finally fall asleep of exhuastion… I’ve never had anything like this before… has anyone else? Any ideas what it is or how to cope with it? I really don’t want to go through this again. Mark

Response:

I have had this also, still do. I never did figure out whether is was a symptom of my anxiety or the cause of it. Althought I had the anxiety first. It kept me from sleeping a lot of nights and I still have it at times. I had EEGs and MRI’s and they found nothing. All I can say is that it’s just another sucky thing that your anxiety can do to you and keep you from sleeping and making you miserable. Believe me, I feel for you. LonelyGirl – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi! This is my first post so please be gentle! I’ve been on Seroxat(Paxil) (30mg/day) for about 10 weeks for panic attacks / depression… it seems to help (most of the time)… however there are still occasions where I lose control in a big way…. Over the last week, I’ve been experiencing a couple of times, what I can only describe as "electric shocks"… similar to a just before a panic attack but rather than lasting a second or two it lasts for hours… with "shocks" every 10-15 seconds. Last night was agony… I had an appointment … I couldn’t remember whether it was 6:15pm or 6:30pm… so walking there I stopped outside a newagents (to get a paper to read if I had to wait)… it was closed. I stopped… turned round waked away… stopped…  walked back… stopped… I felt an electric bolt on the inside of my left arm…. my heart starts to beat… I started to panic… I feel as if I’m about to have a panic attack… but it never quite gets there… the shock starts repeating regularly… by the time I got to my appointment… I was a reck… I walked in the room and broke down… couldn’t talk at all… after a few minutes I decided that I really couldn’t go through with it and I rush out. Finally got home… somewhere safe… but the shocks were still going … I wanted to phone someone… to calm me down and reassure me…  but I really don’t want to impose… 5 hours later I make the call… they are out…I leave a message hoping they might phone me back… by 3am the shock are still going…. and I finally fall asleep of exhuastion… I’ve never had anything like this before… has anyone else? Any ideas what it is or how to cope with it? I really don’t want to go through this again. Mark

Response:

I’ve been on Seroxat(Paxil) (30mg/day) for about 10 weeks for panic attacks / depression… it seems to help (most of the time)… however there are still occasions where I lose control in a big way…. Over the last week, I’ve been experiencing a couple of times, what I can only describe as "electric shocks"… similar to a just before a panic attack but rather than lasting a second or two it lasts for hours… with "shocks" every 10-15 seconds.

Funny this sounds exactly like Paxil withdrawal symptoms which I experienced firsthand. Are you skipping doses? Are you taking it all in one dose (if so perhaps you should try to split it into 2)? Anyway you should definitely talk to your doctor about it. In the past doctors weren’t aware of the problems of Paxil, but hopefully all are informed now. Good luck.

Response:

Thanks for the advice… I’ve made an appointment with my doctor… have to see what he says. The only common factor I can think of is both times I’ve had a couple of glasses of wine… although the electric shocks don’t happen every time… I’ve decided to give up the alcohol… it’s not going to be easy tho =o) Mark

Response:

Question:

ENOUGH WITH THE DAMN ACCESS DEBATE THREADS! Living in the UK, I frequently unsubscribe from rec.boats.paddle because there’s too much which isn’t relevant to the UK paddler.   When I resubscribe (as I did last month), I’m always delighted when I find that Scott Weiser is still winding up paddlers, especially in the US. Best wishes

What a compliment.  Many thanks…. Regards, Scott Weiser ****** "I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend upon my friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" ****** http://www.dimensional.com/~weiser/ Copyright 1998 by Scott Weiser Under the UCC, by the act of transmitting any commercial e-mail advertisment to this address, you are expressly contracting with me in my professional capacity for a consultation on the ad’s effectiveness and you expressly agree to pay to me the sum of $250.00 for each such consultation within 10 days of my report to the original sending address.  You further expressly agree that all actions for recovery of fees owed shall be subject solely to the laws of the State of Colorado, which shall have sole jurisdiction.

Response:

ENOUGH WITH THE DAMN ACCESS DEBATE THREADS!

Living in the UK, I frequently unsubscribe from rec.boats.paddle because there’s too much which isn’t relevant to the UK paddler.   When I resubscribe (as I did last month), I’m always delighted when I find that Scott Weiser is still winding up paddlers, especially in the US. Best wishes Keith — |/| |_  |_) |_) /    /   canoeing instead of climbing when I |  | |__ | | /    __/  realised I could swim but not fly!"

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It’s all well and good to say that you, one individual boater, does no identifiable harm, but this ignores the impacts of scale, and when a hundred, or a thousand, or ten thousand boaters use the area, the cumulative impacts become significant.  Just look at the Grand Canyon. yes – and that’s why most public lands that incur use impacts are placed in management plans. These plans seek to find the right balance – though I’ll admit it can be arbitrary – especially when it comes to mulltiple-use determinations. It’s a delicate balance of the two, but remember that preserving to pass stewardship on does *not* necessarily mean passing it to the public who want to use the land for recreation. indeed. the ‘public’ is the government. All land public or private is regulation by Federal, State, and local laws that prevent land-owners from using their land when the impacts of such use affect the public. If you don’t believe this.. try something like a 1000 head feed-lot on your property… or placer mining… or eve condos… none of these will you do without a ‘permit’ and the government decides on behalf of the public if your proposal is ‘in the public interest’. Some folks of late consider these ‘takings’ but underlying ‘public interest’ concept is intact.

This is true, and I’ve never denied the validity of properly constructed land-use law, but *restricting* a property owner’s use to protect the health, welfare and safety of the public is substantially different from *appropriating* his property for the use of the public. But this is true ONLY IF the 100 cattle *do* damage the riverbank. Such impacts are not really comparative in nature.  Negative impacts cause by paddlers are not "better", or "less negative" impacts simply because they are caused by a paddler instead of a cow, they stand on their own, and when those impacts are unnecessary to begin with, they are that much more improper. hmmm.. they *are* comparative in terms of impacts… whether it is recreation, farming, mining.. all of these distill down to impacts that can be quantified in terms of water quality, habitat destruction, etc.  

Yes, but an unnecessary impact is an unnecessary impact, no matter how small it may be. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Cattle may cause negative impacts, which can be mitigated by proper management practices, but cattle are *necessary* impacts in most cases, because they are what pay the taxes and create the profits that are used to continue to preserve the area.   It’s all well and good to say "cattle-free in 2003" or whatever (though this mostly applies to federal lands) but the bills have to get paid somehow.     I suppose when paddlers fork over the thousands of dollars a year to pay the taxes and maintain the property, then I’ll consider allowing them to trespass.   Until then, their impacts, however slight, are *not necessary* to the preservation of the resource, and therefore they are justifiably banned. "can be mitigated by proper management practices" leaves it up to the landowner whoever that happens to be at a given time. this does not work when money is involved. Many landowners justify the destruction of the land they own for ‘economic benefits’. You are not unilaterally entitled to un-regulated economic activity just because you own the land. Your activity has to be compatible with the ‘public interest’ as there is hardly anything (economic)  you can do on your property that won’t ultimately affect the public. There are thousands and thousands of local, state, federal laws that restrict you every which way from Sunday. You may consider recreation not necessary – the public may think otherwise – the same goes for what you think is ‘necessary’. If you public disagrees with you then you may be restricted.

Absolutely correct, but the fact that the government may regulate my activities in the public interest has no nexus to my ability to regulate YOUR activities on my land.  As we have seen, even the government recognizes the impacts of recreationalists on public waters and has chosen to regulate them as well.  I’m not sure what your point is. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  I’am also amused by the ’scaring the wildlife’ argument – somewhat because there may be a ‘hint’ of truth for some species but how many species in the last few decades have been not only ’scared’ but just plain wiped-out because the habitat they lived on was used by the landowner for ‘other purposes’? Again, you are comparing apples and oranges.  The fact that species and habitat may have been impacted by landowners is a broad generalization and an irrelevant comparison.   In my case this is not the case, as is true in many other places, and you cannot claim that your impacts are legitimate merely because other impacts occur. Your impacts stand alone, on their own merits, and you are not excused by the bad behavior of others.   Using your logic, you should be able to toss beer cans on the bank, leave rubbish around and cut down trees for firewood just because somebody else does so somewhere else. That’s fallacious logic at best. I follow the consistency argument and agree but behavior is governed by law whether it occurs on private or public property – though different laws may apply depending on the behavior – for instance some usually can be arrested for ’speeding on your property’ because the law does not apply to private property.

I don’t understand.  You seem to be contradicting yourself. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If the ’scaring the wildlife’ arugment were true then most of the official ‘wild & scenic’ rivers in this nation – which are heavily travelled by recreation paddlers – would be completely devoid of wildlife. The reverse is true – once the land is dedicated by recreational use ONLY – the wildlife return and thrive.. and with the exception of certain ’shy’ species become confortable with humans – especially if they are not shooting them. It’s not the presence of the human itself that disturbs most animals – it is WHAT the human is doing and animals *know* that there is risk is hanging around. This is simply not true.  No one said that the riparian zone would become ‘devoid’ of life, and while wildlife may become habituated to some degree, the stresses of human intrusion *remain* to negatively affect populations and vigor.   And that wildlife you may see, which may be habituated, ignores those "shy" species, which are in the majority, which may indeed leave the area altogether, or may simply begin a gradual decline. Our federal lands are managed for *multiple* use with the recognition that humans *will* have impacts, and those impacts are balanced against the benefits which accrue to the public.  Factually, from a political point of view, it would be highly desireable to simply forbid human access to *most* wilderness areas in order to preserve the habitat, but it’s politically impossible to do so, so we instead try to mitigate the impacts we do have.  That’s why permit systems are cropping up on more and more rivers.  The impacts of scale have become clear and limitations are required to preserve the resource. Indeed – with respect to ‘wilderness designation’, it’s not the paddlers or recreation folks or environmentalists that are fighting it.. it’s the folks that want to build roads and use motors. Impacts from recreation are easily mitigated.. you employ a permit system and if an area has eagle nests.. then you close it off entirely. The right fringe/landowner rights movement is trying to strike down all of these laws.. they want it all wide open … so that power boats, ski doos, etc can you AND the impacts ARE comparative. 100 canoes CAN and ARE compared to 100 ski-doos. One single four-wheel drive can severly damage a trail… and it has become recognized that hikers can do but it’ll take a 1000 of them… so you permit the use.. no 4-wheel and only 10 hikers per day.. etc etc

True, but largely irrelevant.  You do prove my point however that mitigating and preventing impacts is a legitimate method of preserving the resource. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The ‘difficulty’ is that if Colorado actually did what you suggest – that there would be a firestorm and the arugment would be over with very quickly. You would lose big time. Very significant tourism and the public’s perception of being ‘welcome’ are involved. No sane public official would even consider it.. that’ why they’re content to let it be the way it is. Public officials don’t make the decisions, wrong… if the public doesn’t like the court decision they’ll change the law. The ‘law’ is determined by the legislature which consists of publically-elected officials. the Courts do.   No amount of feverish desire in pursuit of the almighty dollar can prevent me, or someone else from filing a suit in court claiming an improper taking of private property for public use without just compensation. That’s the purpose of the Constitution, to prevent the tyranny of the majority and the infringements of the rights of the individual by the public. yep…but even the constition can be ammended if the people want it.

True, and when you succeed in repealing the Fifth Amendment, get back to me. While you are technically correct, you must recognize that private property ownership and the prohibitions against the government exproprating property without compensation are one of the core beliefs of our nation, and it’s simply not credible that the vast majority of the public, *who are property owners*, will tear up the Constitution simply to suit a *small number* of boating recreationists who aren’t satisfied with the public … read more »

Response:

 It’s all well and good to say that you, one individual boater, does no identifiable harm, but this ignores the impacts of scale, and when a hundred, or a thousand, or ten thousand boaters use the area, the cumulative impacts become significant.  Just look at the Grand Canyon.

yes – and that’s why most public lands that incur use impacts are placed in management plans. These plans seek to find the right balance – though I’ll admit it can be arbitrary – especially when it comes to mulltiple-use determinations. It’s a delicate balance of the two, but remember that preserving to pass stewardship on does *not* necessarily mean passing it to the public who want to use the land for recreation.

indeed. the ‘public’ is the government. All land public or private is regulation by Federal, State, and local laws that prevent land-owners from using their land when the impacts of such use affect the public. If you don’t believe this.. try something like a 1000 head feed-lot on your property… or placer mining… or eve condos… none of these will you do without a ‘permit’ and the government decides on behalf of the public if your proposal is ‘in the public interest’. Some folks of late consider these ‘takings’ but underlying ‘public interest’ concept is intact. But this is true ONLY IF the 100 cattle *do* damage the riverbank. Such impacts are not really comparative in nature.  Negative impacts cause by paddlers are not "better", or "less negative" impacts simply because they are caused by a paddler instead of a cow, they stand on their own, and when those impacts are unnecessary to begin with, they are that much more improper.

 hmmm.. they *are* comparative in terms of impacts… whether it is recreation, farming, mining.. all of these distill down to impacts that can be quantified in terms of water quality, habitat destruction, etc.   Cattle may cause negative impacts, which can be mitigated by proper management practices, but cattle are *necessary* impacts in most cases, because they are what pay the taxes and create the profits that are used to continue to preserve the area.   It’s all well and good to say "cattle-free in 2003" or whatever (though this mostly applies to federal lands) but the bills have to get paid somehow.     I suppose when paddlers fork over the thousands of dollars a year to pay the taxes and maintain the property, then I’ll consider allowing them to trespass.   Until then, their impacts, however slight, are *not necessary* to the preservation of the resource, and therefore they are justifiably banned.

"can be mitigated by proper management practices" leaves it up to the landowner whoever that happens to be at a given time. this does not work when money is involved. Many landowners justify the destruction of the land they own for ‘economic benefits’. You are not unilaterally entitled to un-regulated economic activity just because you own the land. Your activity has to be compatible with the ‘public interest’ as there is hardly anything (economic)  you can do on your property that won’t ultimately affect the public. There are thousands and thousands of local, state, federal laws that restrict you every which way from Sunday. You may consider recreation not necessary – the public may think otherwise – the same goes for what you think is ‘necessary’. If you public disagrees with you then you may be restricted. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  I’am also amused by the ’scaring the wildlife’ argument – somewhat because there may be a ‘hint’ of truth for some species but how many species in the last few decades have been not only ’scared’ but just plain wiped-out because the habitat they lived on was used by the landowner for ‘other purposes’? Again, you are comparing apples and oranges.  The fact that species and habitat may have been impacted by landowners is a broad generalization and an irrelevant comparison.   In my case this is not the case, as is true in many other places, and you cannot claim that your impacts are legitimate merely because other impacts occur. Your impacts stand alone, on their own merits, and you are not excused by the bad behavior of others.   Using your logic, you should be able to toss beer cans on the bank, leave rubbish around and cut down trees for firewood just because somebody else does so somewhere else. That’s fallacious logic at best.

I follow the consistency argument and agree but behavior is governed by law whether it occurs on private or public property – though different laws may apply depending on the behavior – for instance some usually can be arrested for ’speeding on your property’ because the law does not apply to private property. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If the ’scaring the wildlife’ arugment were true then most of the official ‘wild & scenic’ rivers in this nation – which are heavily travelled by recreation paddlers – would be completely devoid of wildlife. The reverse is true – once the land is dedicated by recreational use ONLY – the wildlife return and thrive.. and with the exception of certain ’shy’ species become confortable with humans – especially if they are not shooting them. It’s not the presence of the human itself that disturbs most animals – it is WHAT the human is doing and animals *know* that there is risk is hanging around. This is simply not true.  No one said that the riparian zone would become ‘devoid’ of life, and while wildlife may become habituated to some degree, the stresses of human intrusion *remain* to negatively affect populations and vigor.   And that wildlife you may see, which may be habituated, ignores those "shy" species, which are in the majority, which may indeed leave the area altogether, or may simply begin a gradual decline. Our federal lands are managed for *multiple* use with the recognition that humans *will* have impacts, and those impacts are balanced against the benefits which accrue to the public.  Factually, from a political point of view, it would be highly desireable to simply forbid human access to *most* wilderness areas in order to preserve the habitat, but it’s politically impossible to do so, so we instead try to mitigate the impacts we do have.  That’s why permit systems are cropping up on more and more rivers.  The impacts of scale have become clear and limitations are required to preserve the resource.

Indeed – with respect to ‘wilderness designation’, it’s not the paddlers or recreation folks or environmentalists that are fighting it.. it’s the folks that want to build roads and use motors. Impacts from recreation are easily mitigated.. you employ a permit system and if an area has eagle nests.. then you close it off entirely. The right fringe/landowner rights movement is trying to strike down all of these laws.. they want it all wide open … so that power boats, ski doos, etc can you AND the impacts ARE comparative. 100 canoes CAN and ARE compared to 100 ski-doos. One single four-wheel drive can severly damage a trail… and it has become recognized that hikers can do but it’ll take a 1000 of them… so you permit the use.. no 4-wheel and only 10 hikers per day.. etc etc The ‘difficulty’ is that if Colorado actually did what you suggest – that there would be a firestorm and the arugment would be over with very quickly. You would lose big time. Very significant tourism and the public’s perception of being ‘welcome’ are involved. No sane public official would even consider it.. that’ why they’re content to let it be the way it is. Public officials don’t make the decisions,

wrong… if the public doesn’t like the court decision they’ll change the law. The ‘law’ is determined by the legislature which consists of publically-elected officials. the Courts do.   No amount of feverish desire in pursuit of the almighty dollar can prevent me, or someone else from filing a suit in court claiming an improper taking of private property for public use without just compensation. That’s the purpose of the Constitution, to prevent the tyranny of the majority and the infringements of the rights of the individual by the public.

 yep…but even the constition can be ammended if the people want it. If I were to do as I suggest, *something* would happen, either the trespassers would be arrested, or *I* would be arrested for "illegally" preventing them from trespassing, or they would file a suit, or I would.  And as soon as the matter comes to court, the LAW rules, and I am quite confident in the strength of my legal case.

Like I said… if the law in Colorado was rigidly enforced along the lines that you suggest… and paddlers were kicked off of the major streams.. you could expect the law to change – regardless of how the courts feel. When you have a law like they have in Colorado and it’s not enforced.. there is a message in it. Federal Laws can force changes in Colorado law also – and do all the time. In the end… in a democracy… "rights" are decided by the people. You have no "right" to economic activity or even landowner rights if the public that votes disagrees with you. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Regards, Scott Weiser ****** "I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend upon my friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" ****** http://www.dimensional.com/~weiser/ Copyright 1998 by Scott Weiser Under the UCC, by the act of transmitting any commercial e-mail advertisment to this address, you are expressly contracting with me in my professional capacity for a consultation on the ad’s effectiveness and you expressly agree to pay to me the sum of $250.00 for each such consultation within 10 days of my report to the original sending address.  You further expressly agree that all actions for recovery of fees owed shall be subject solely to the laws of the State of Colorado, which shall have sole

… read more »

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Correct, and the point is that *somebody* just might own such places, and you could lose the access in a heartbeat due to the malefactions of one or two individual paddlers. yep – actually this is more common that most folks either know or will admit. In Virginia – The Cowpasture River ( not great whitewater but a really beautify mountain river) is essentially off-limits. Others include Back Creek and the Jackson. Had a little old lady point a long-barreled 45 at our group on the Bullpasture. She wanted us off of "her damned land" NOW! People have been arrested in the past and many others are "warned" by local landowners before they even put in. Interestingly, we *used* to be able to get permission from the landowner group for a number of years and then suddenly we were refused. Not because we had done anything wrong – we ALWAYS sought permission and ALWAYS were polite –  but because 1 landowner out of dozens didn’t want ANYBODY and didn’t care whether they were polite or respectful or anything else. End of story. All of years of carefully trying to not step on anyones toes went for naught. Um….I think this qualifies as a "broad generalization" of the type which Richard was objecting to when applied to paddlers, so I guess I have to object to it when applied to "landowners".   After all, my purpose is not to develop or destroy the resource, it’s to protect it from the damage caused by public use. yep, i erred in the generalization. there is a link however. I don’t buy your ‘protection’ argument. I’ve paddled hundreds of rivers in 30 years of boating and damage, if any, is miniscule compared to cattle, 4 wheelers, local trash dumps, roadside dumps, fishermen – believe it of not!, logging, farming, and industry.

This may be true elsewhere, but the fact that others may cause more damage does not reduce the impacts which boaters cause, and since whatever those impacts are are unnecessary, it’s perfectly proper to prevent them. Actually, of late, many rivers have been saved from damage by pointing out that they are used significantly for recreation. also interesting is that once a River becomes officially protected and becomes a destination for paddlers – the localities reap economic benefit AND the river then becomes essentially off-limits to single-minded proposals that *would* damage it.

If economic benefits were the only criteria perhaps this would be valid.   You do make a valid point that public awareness of the particular value of a particular river can be helpful in protecting the resource, but far too often the negative impacts of public access do more harm than good.   It’s all well and good to say that you, one individual boater, does no identifiable harm, but this ignores the impacts of scale, and when a hundred, or a thousand, or ten thousand boaters use the area, the cumulative impacts become significant.  Just look at the Grand Canyon. It’s a delicate balance of the two, but remember that preserving to pass stewardship on does *not* necessarily mean passing it to the public who want to use the land for recreation. I don’t think it is a ‘delicate balance’ at all. In most cases, it is fairly clear what the landowners intentions are.. you can see it in the way they take care of ( or not ) the land. Recreation does not harm the land on near the same scale as say cattle. A hundred cattle can totally ruin a river bank and turn a clean stream into a mess. A 100 paddlers – even if they all urinated in unison wouldn’t even come close.

But this is true ONLY IF the 100 cattle *do* damage the riverbank. Such impacts are not really comparative in nature.  Negative impacts cause by paddlers are not "better", or "less negative" impacts simply because they are caused by a paddler instead of a cow, they stand on their own, and when those impacts are unnecessary to begin with, they are that much more improper.   Cattle may cause negative impacts, which can be mitigated by proper management practices, but cattle are *necessary* impacts in most cases, because they are what pay the taxes and create the profits that are used to continue to preserve the area.   It’s all well and good to say "cattle-free in 2003" or whatever (though this mostly applies to federal lands) but the bills have to get paid somehow.     I suppose when paddlers fork over the thousands of dollars a year to pay the taxes and maintain the property, then I’ll consider allowing them to trespass.   Until then, their impacts, however slight, are *not necessary* to the preservation of the resource, and therefore they are justifiably banned.  I’am also amused by the ’scaring the wildlife’ argument – somewhat because there may be a ‘hint’ of truth for some species but how many species in the last few decades have been not only ’scared’ but just plain wiped-out because the habitat they lived on was used by the landowner for ‘other purposes’?

Again, you are comparing apples and oranges.  The fact that species and habitat may have been impacted by landowners is a broad generalization and an irrelevant comparison.   In my case this is not the case, as is true in many other places, and you cannot claim that your impacts are legitimate merely because other impacts occur. Your impacts stand alone, on their own merits, and you are not excused by the bad behavior of others.   Using your logic, you should be able to toss beer cans on the bank, leave rubbish around and cut down trees for firewood just because somebody else does so somewhere else. That’s fallacious logic at best. If the ’scaring the wildlife’ arugment were true then most of the official ‘wild & scenic’ rivers in this nation – which are heavily travelled by recreation paddlers – would be completely devoid of wildlife. The reverse is true – once the land is dedicated by recreational use ONLY – the wildlife return and thrive.. and with the exception of certain ’shy’ species become confortable with humans – especially if they are not shooting them. It’s not the presence of the human itself that disturbs most animals – it is WHAT the human is doing and animals *know* that there is risk is hanging around.

This is simply not true.  No one said that the riparian zone would become ‘devoid’ of life, and while wildlife may become habituated to some degree, the stresses of human intrusion *remain* to negatively affect populations and vigor.   And that wildlife you may see, which may be habituated, ignores those "shy" species, which are in the majority, which may indeed leave the area altogether, or may simply begin a gradual decline. Our federal lands are managed for *multiple* use with the recognition that humans *will* have impacts, and those impacts are balanced against the benefits which accrue to the public.  Factually, from a political point of view, it would be highly desireable to simply forbid human access to *most* wilderness areas in order to preserve the habitat, but it’s politically impossible to do so, so we instead try to mitigate the impacts we do have.  That’s why permit systems are cropping up on more and more rivers.  The impacts of scale have become clear and limitations are required to preserve the resource. Those impacts are just as present on Boulder Creek, though to a lesser degree.   The difficulty is that many jurisdictions are relying upon the  *** snip legal rambling **** Pity I don’t own such a parcel…..I could bring this thing to a head quite quickly…. The ‘difficulty’ is that if Colorado actually did what you suggest – that there would be a firestorm and the arugment would be over with very quickly. You would lose big time. Very significant tourism and the public’s perception of being ‘welcome’ are involved. No sane public official would even consider it.. that’ why they’re content to let it be the way it is.

Public officials don’t make the decisions, the Courts do.   No amount of feverish desire in pursuit of the almighty dollar can prevent me, or someone else from filing a suit in court claiming an improper taking of private property for public use without just compensation. That’s the purpose of the Constitution, to prevent the tyranny of the majority and the infringements of the rights of the individual by the public. If I were to do as I suggest, *something* would happen, either the trespassers would be arrested, or *I* would be arrested for "illegally" preventing them from trespassing, or they would file a suit, or I would.  And as soon as the matter comes to court, the LAW rules, and I am quite confident in the strength of my legal case. Regards, Scott Weiser ****** "I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend upon my friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" ****** http://www.dimensional.com/~weiser/ Copyright 1998 by Scott Weiser Under the UCC, by the act of transmitting any commercial e-mail advertisment to this address, you are expressly contracting with me in my professional capacity for a consultation on the ad’s effectiveness and you expressly agree to pay to me the sum of $250.00 for each such consultation within 10 days of my report to the original sending address.  You further expressly agree that all actions for recovery of fees owed shall be subject solely to the laws of the State of Colorado, which shall have sole jurisdiction.

Response:

Correct, and the point is that *somebody* just might own such places, and you could lose the access in a heartbeat due to the malefactions of one or two individual paddlers.

 yep – actually this is more common that most folks either know or will admit. In Virginia – The Cowpasture River ( not great whitewater but a really beautify mountain river) is essentially off-limits. Others include Back Creek and the Jackson. Had a little old lady point a long-barreled 45 at our group on the Bullpasture. She wanted us off of "her damned land" NOW!  People have been arrested in the past and many others are "warned" by local landowners before they even put in. Interestingly, we *used* to be able to get permission from the landowner group for a number of years and then suddenly we were refused. Not because we had done anything wrong – we ALWAYS sought permission and ALWAYS were polite –  but because 1 landowner out of dozens didn’t want ANYBODY and didn’t care whether they were polite or respectful or anything else. End of story. All of years of carefully trying to not step on anyones toes went for naught. Um….I think this qualifies as a "broad generalization" of the type which Richard was objecting to when applied to paddlers, so I guess I have to object to it when applied to "landowners".   After all, my purpose is not to develop or destroy the resource, it’s to protect it from the damage caused by public use.

 yep, i erred in the generalization. there is a link however. I don’t buy your ‘protection’ argument. I’ve paddled hundreds of rivers in 30 years of boating and damage, if any, is miniscule compared to cattle, 4 wheelers, local trash dumps, roadside dumps, fishermen – believe it of not!, logging, farming, and industry. Actually, of late, many rivers have been saved from damage by pointing out that they are used significantly for recreation. also interesting is that once a River becomes officially protected and becomes a destination for paddlers – the localities reap economic benefit AND the river then becomes essentially off-limits to single-minded proposals that *would* damage it. It’s a delicate balance of the two, but remember that preserving to pass stewardship on does *not* necessarily mean passing it to the public who want to use the land for recreation.

I don’t think it is a ‘delicate balance’ at all. In most cases, it is fairly clear what the landowners intentions are.. you can see it in the way they take care of ( or not ) the land. Recreation does not harm the land on near the same scale as say cattle. A hundred cattle can totally ruin a river bank and turn a clean stream into a mess. A 100 paddlers – even if they all urinated in unison wouldn’t even come close.  I’am also amused by the ’scaring the wildlife’ argument – somewhat because there may be a ‘hint’ of truth for some species but how many species in the last few decades have been not only ’scared’ but just plain wiped-out because the habitat they lived on was used by the landowner for ‘other purposes’? If the ’scaring the wildlife’ arugment were true then most of the official ‘wild & scenic’ rivers in this nation – which are heavily travelled by recreation paddlers – would be completely devoid of wildlife. The reverse is true – once the land is dedicated by recreational use ONLY – the wildlife return and thrive.. and with the exception of certain ’shy’ species become confortable with humans – especially if they are not shooting them. It’s not the presence of the human itself that disturbs most animals – it is WHAT the human is doing and animals *know* that there is risk is hanging around. The difficulty is that many jurisdictions are relying upon the

  *** snip legal rambling **** Pity I don’t own such a parcel…..I could bring this thing to a head quite quickly….

 The ‘difficulty’ is that if Colorado actually did what you suggest – that there would be a firestorm and the arugment would be over with very quickly. You would lose big time. Very significant tourism and the public’s perception of being ‘welcome’ are involved. No sane public official would even consider it.. that’ why they’re content to let it be the way it is. Absolutely correct, and only by dialog between landowners and river users can such conflicts be peacefully and properly resolved with benefit to everyone.

I actually agree with the basic premise that no one is guanranteed access to private land because they are engaging in what they perceive as a ‘noble’ activity. Usually, it’s scumballs who cloak themselves with the ‘noble activity’ and then abuse the landowner. We’ve seen it with hunting and to some extent with boating. I’ve always subscribed to the idea that if someone owns the land that *I* need to *ask permission* and if they refuse – they refuse. It is their right. It burns my butt when 99 paddlers are polite and ask permission and then Mr asshole waltz’s in and screws it up for everybody. Folks from the ‘big’ cities are often the worst offenders. For some odd reason, I’ve never been able to understand they think they are ‘entitled’ to treaspass once in the rural landscape. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Regards, Scott Weiser ****** "I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend upon my friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" ****** http://www.dimensional.com/~weiser/ Copyright 1998 by Scott Weiser Under the UCC, by the act of transmitting any commercial e-mail advertisment to this address, you are expressly contracting with me in my professional capacity for a consultation on the ad’s effectiveness and you expressly agree to pay to me the sum of $250.00 for each such consultation within 10 days of my report to the original sending address.  You further expressly agree that all actions for recovery of fees owed shall be subject solely to the laws of the State of Colorado, which shall have sole jurisdiction.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am willing to conceed to Scott that there is a valid interest in these dicussions on this newsgroup, but I do wish I could make the "NOT weiser" boolean search request work on my newsreader client.  The problem I have with these posts is that Scott seems to be preoccupied with preaching legal findings and citing past relevant rulings to paddlers that are responding back with statements like "If I can paddle it, the river is navigable!" and "Just try to stop me!".  Reading these threads is like sitting in a nicely furnished living room watching an acclaimed vet scold his dog by using the following phrase…"Sparky, the reason you should not urinate on the carpet is because the acidic nature of your fluid excrement has an adverse effect on both the optical appearance of this synthetic-based floor covering and also tends to react unpleasantly with the olfactory processes of myself and my house guests. Please, Sparky, give me a reason why I should not confine you to your pre-designated travel container."  Whereas, the more intelligent vet, the person that learns through careful observation would say "Bad Dog, go to your box.", realizing that dogs do not make for good argument.

ROTFLMAO.   What a hoot….I had not thought to compare kayakers to untrainable dogs.   I sort of thought by presenting the evidence in (hopefully) a manner which the average adult could understand, that people would discover the logic involved themselves and make good decisions based upon that knowledge.   I’ve had quite a bit of evidence that this is indeed the case. While you may tire of repetition (as I do), there is a constant stream of people who *don’t* understand and might like to who deserve to be informed of the controversy and the facts surrounding it so that they, too, can make informed decisions. My suggestion is that those who know the material and have made the decision, one way or the other, simply skip the threads altogether and allow those who *are* interested debate the matter with me in peace and quiet.   Unfortunately, those who have seen the material cannot seem to control themselves and insist on insulting me and interrupting valid and interesting conversations among others.  It’s a lot like a high-school student running into a class full of 8th graders and shouting "Hey, teach, shut the **ck up! I’ve heard all this before and you annoy me!" Why can’t those who don’t like the nature of the discussion simply switch off and go for a paddle and leave those who wish to discuss alone? I suspect it’s because such people are violently opposed to my particular argument and see it as dangerous, and decide to do whatever they can to disrupt the flow of information.  It’s a lame attempt at censorship, nothing more, and I’ll tell you here and now it won’t work. I guess what I am trying to say here is that the best communicators are the ones that can tailor a response, argumentative or otherwise, to the intended audience.  Make your point and make it clear.  There is nothing wrong with being a highly intelligent, well versed, individual, but make no mistake…a highly- intelligent, well-versed idiot is still an idiot. Finally, Scott, if you feel the need to reply to this posting, I will assume that you deem me a colleague worth engaging with in meaningful debate.      If your words truly express your feelings about me…

I think you have made a trenchant statement of fact, and I appreciate your candor.  I hope that my reply is likewise informative.  We agree more  than we disagree, but I have a policy about "Shut the **ck UP!" threads, which is that I reply to them with whatever degree of politeness is called for until those posting to the thread….shut the **ck up. Then I return to the adult debates about access issues and the law with those who wish to discuss the issue.  When nobody cares to discuss it anymore, then the thread dies and I retreat to my place under the bridge for a time, until some event stimulates me to begin again, for a new crop of paddlers who may be in need of enlightenment. (Your Previous Posting) <CLIP If you don’t like the course of the conversation, then toddle off and start one of your own instead of sniping at the adults who are having an interesting discussion.   You sound like a three-year-old who’s whining and throwing a temper tantrum because Mommy is ignoring you. <CLIP …then why do you bother post a reply, I personally do not waste my time reasoning with someone that sounded like a spoiled three-year-old.

It’s not for *their* benefit, it’s for the benefit of others, and for my own amusement. If you do repond and I do not, please do not feel bad.  Sometimes I go out and paddle instead of talking about it in this newsgroup.

Good plan. BTW- I apologize for the YELLING in my first post, it was uncalled for.

No problem, I’m a very forgiving kind of guy. Regards, Scott Weiser ****** "I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend upon my friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" ****** http://www.dimensional.com/~weiser/ Copyright 1998 by Scott Weiser Under the UCC, by the act of transmitting any commercial e-mail advertisment to this address, you are expressly contracting with me in my professional capacity for a consultation on the ad’s effectiveness and you expressly agree to pay to me the sum of $250.00 for each such consultation within 10 days of my report to the original sending address.  You further expressly agree that all actions for recovery of fees owed shall be subject solely to the laws of the State of Colorado, which shall have sole jurisdiction.

Response:

Hey, hey. We should be counting our blessings. Suppose Mr. Weiser owned the put-in to the Ocoee or Chatooga?  

Correct, and the point is that *somebody* just might own such places, and you could lose the access in a heartbeat due to the malefactions of one or two individual paddlers. Paddlers need to know about folks like him AND how he thinks. Mr. Weiser is representative of many ‘landowner rights’ advocates some of whom also belong to the ‘Wise Use’ groups. They usually not only want to keep paddlers off the rivers but they want to develop their land in any way they please even if it destroys natural resources.

Um….I think this qualifies as a "broad generalization" of the type which Richard was objecting to when applied to paddlers, so I guess I have to object to it when applied to "landowners".   After all, my purpose is not to develop or destroy the resource, it’s to protect it from the damage caused by public use. Some folks think if they own land that it ‘ALL MINE’ and I can do with it what I want while others see themselves as temporary stewards responsible for passing the land on to others to also will practice stewardship.

It’s a delicate balance of the two, but remember that preserving to pass stewardship on does *not* necessarily mean passing it to the public who want to use the land for recreation. It is a significant movement and unless paddlers and others become involved and pay attention – you’ll see more and more rivers placed off-limits. I’m amazed that if Colorado Law is what Mr. Weiser sez it is that ANY rivers out there can be accessed legally. Something doesn’t fit. I wonder how popular rivers fare on the access issue in that state.

The difficulty is that many jurisdictions are relying upon the Attorney General’s opinion of the effects of changing the definition of "premises", including the state Department of Natural Resources, which leads to inconsistent enforcement of the law and a misunderstanding of the law itself.   The issue is still unresolved because no case has been brought to overturn the AG’s opinion and confirm the Emmert Court’s decision.   I hope it won’t come to that, because such a ruling would *shut down* public recreational use of most of the important recreational waters of the state, including the Number section of the Arkansas, which, while most of it is on BLM or Forest Service land, is criss-crossed by private "inholdings", any one of which could choose at any time to prohibit trespass and thereby destroy the ability to complete the float at all, since there’s no way to egress at the closed properties. This is why I propose a system which allows the state to, in this example, *condemn* a recreational easement if necessary to assure continued access to the entire run.  But the essential part is that the state must *pay for* the access.   After all, commercial whitewater recreation on the Arkansas is a multi-million dollar industry, which makes that easement quite valuable. I’ve suggested before the possibility that a landowner who owns a strip of land under the river somewhere in the middle of the popular section could simply take photos of every commercial raft which passes by in a season, identify the outfitter, count the number of heads and send them a bill at, say, $5.00 a head for a "trespass fee."    I imagine this would get the attention of the recreational community rather quickly. Pity I don’t own such a parcel…..I could bring this thing to a head quite quickly…. The thread has been excellent raising awareness  and I’ll bet more than a few now realize how important it is to contribute/join the AWA who works on behalf paddlers on access issues.

Absolutely correct, and only by dialog between landowners and river users can such conflicts be peacefully and properly resolved with benefit to everyone. Regards, Scott Weiser ****** "I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend upon my friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" ****** http://www.dimensional.com/~weiser/ Copyright 1998 by Scott Weiser Under the UCC, by the act of transmitting any commercial e-mail advertisment to this address, you are expressly contracting with me in my professional capacity for a consultation on the ad’s effectiveness and you expressly agree to pay to me the sum of $250.00 for each such consultation within 10 days of my report to the original sending address.  You further expressly agree that all actions for recovery of fees owed shall be subject solely to the laws of the State of Colorado, which shall have sole jurisdiction.

Response:

Shut Up, Shut up, Shut Up!!! For the love of God people please stop this nonesense. Like everyone else I give a damn but I’m F%#$ing tired of seeing all these lame Wesier posts. Dear lord have mercy on our souls!! T.J.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey, hey. We should be counting our blessings. Suppose Mr. Weiser owned the put-in to the Ocoee or Chatooga? Paddlers need to know about folks like him AND how he thinks. Mr. Weiser is representative of many ‘landowner rights’ advocates some of whom also belong to the ‘Wise Use’ groups. They usually not only want to keep paddlers off the rivers but they want to develop their land in any way they please even if it destroys natural resources. Some folks think if they own land that it ‘ALL MINE’ and I can do with it what I want while others see themselves as temporary stewards responsible for passing the land on to others to also will practice stewardship. It is a significant movement and unless paddlers and others become involved and pay attention – you’ll see more and more rivers placed off-limits. I’m amazed that if Colorado Law is what Mr. Weiser sez it is that ANY rivers out there can be accessed legally. Something doesn’t fit. I wonder how popular rivers fare on the access issue in that state. The thread has been excellent raising awareness  and I’ll bet more than a few now realize how important it is to contribute/join the AWA who works on behalf paddlers on access issues.

I will go against the spirit of my original post and add a few more coals to the fire. Larry, you make a good point here.  It is important that people reading this newsgroup realize the opinions of Scott and landowners like him.  I do admit that I skimmed over the legal content of your posting pretty lightly, because I myself (speaking only for myself) do not give much consideration to written law while paddling.  Not to say that I am a scofflaw, I just rely on simple common sense and judgement when leaving the city for a relaxing paddling trip.  In my opinion, many access laws are on the books for liability reasons.  There is a certain river here in the Southeast, that is officially banned from access.  I have been told by local law enforcement officials that they do not particularly mind paddlers on the river, nor do they bother them if the right attitude is excercised by the group.  The law was enacted to protect the state in the event of an unforseen accident.  When I paddle, I paddle until told not to.  If a local landowner expresses their concern in my paddling, I respect their wishes.  If I should get arrested and am legally "in the wrong", I pay my fine and do not visit that particular area again. This approach has not failed me yet. Mutual respect goes quite a long way here in the Southeast.  Maybe things are different in Colorado, I really do not know.  I am not saying we should feel that we have the right to paddle anywhere.  I am simply saying that 9 times out of ten, if you are not making a problem for anyone, people usually do not make problems for you.  If Mr. Weiser’s family property on Boulder Creek contains a fence to control livestock, and by Colorado law they have a right to maintain that fence, then I would say paddling that section does impose a problem on someone, so it shold be avoided.  It is quite possible that if there was no need for the fence, the Weisers may not care if their property is paddled across, who knows, it does not really matter.  If I am paddling down a "legal" creek and a trout fisherman has inadvertantly snagged his line across the river,  I wait, or help, or get out and walk around.  I do not care who is or is not supposed to be there. (enough rambling, I will try to make my point here.) I am willing to conceed to Scott that there is a valid interest in these dicussions on this newsgroup, but I do wish I could make the "NOT weiser" boolean search request work on my newsreader client.  The problem I have with these posts is that Scott seems to be preoccupied with preaching legal findings and citing past relevant rulings to paddlers that are responding back with statements like "If I can paddle it, the river is navigable!" and "Just try to stop me!".  Reading these threads is like sitting in a nicely furnished living room watching an acclaimed vet scold his dog by using the following phrase…"Sparky, the reason you should not urinate on the carpet is because the acidic nature of your fluid excrement has an adverse effect on both the optical appearance of this synthetic-based floor covering and also tends to react unpleasantly with the olfactory processes of myself and my house guests. Please, Sparky, give me a reason why I should not confine you to your pre-designated travel container."  Whereas, the more intelligent vet, the person that learns through careful observation would say "Bad Dog, go to your box.", realizing that dogs do not make for good argument. I guess what I am trying to say here is that the best communicators are the ones that can tailor a response, argumentative or otherwise, to the intended audience.  Make your point and make it clear.  There is nothing wrong with being a highly intelligent, well versed, individual, but make no mistake…a highly- intelligent, well-versed idiot is still an idiot. Finally, Scott, if you feel the need to reply to this posting, I will assume that you deem me a colleague worth engaging with in meaningful debate.  If your words truly express your feelings about me… (Your Previous Posting) <CLIP If you don’t like the course of the conversation, then toddle off and start one of your own instead of sniping at the adults who are having an interesting discussion.   You sound like a three-year-old who’s whining and throwing a temper tantrum because Mommy is ignoring you.

<CLIP …then why do you bother post a reply, I personally do not waste my time reasoning with someone that sounded like a spoiled three-year-old. If you do repond and I do not, please do not feel bad.  Sometimes I go out and paddle instead of talking about it in this newsgroup. BTW- I apologize for the YELLING in my first post, it was uncalled for. SYOTR (well maybe 99.9% of you) -Craig

Response:

From, Mick "Better to be paddlin’ hard than hardly paddlin’ "

Response:

I think it’s kind of funny. Near the beginning of the great return of Weiser, everyone was more or less agreeing with him. Now he’s isolated himself against the NG again by posting more to this newsgroup on a few days than I have since I’ve started looking at it.

Of course, the slingers of insults who *start* the threads have *nothing* to do with it…..not… If only the "vocal minority" were able to leave well enough alone, then perhaps these pyrotechnic offshoots wouldn’t happen, but of course, unable to audit their conduct, they just *have* to get a dig in there.   Well, poke me and I poke right back.  You want it to stop, you stop it. Regards, Scott Weiser ****** "I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend upon my friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" ****** http://www.dimensional.com/~weiser/ Copyright 1998 by Scott Weiser Under the UCC, by the act of transmitting any commercial e-mail advertisment to this address, you are expressly contracting with me in my professional capacity for a consultation on the ad’s effectiveness and you expressly agree to pay to me the sum of $250.00 for each such consultation within 10 days of my report to the original sending address.  You further expressly agree that all actions for recovery of fees owed shall be subject solely to the laws of the State of Colorado, which shall have sole jurisdiction.

Response:

Hey, hey. We should be counting our blessings. Suppose Mr. Weiser owned the put-in to the Ocoee or Chatooga?   Paddlers need to know about folks like him AND how he thinks. Mr. Weiser is representative of many ‘landowner rights’ advocates some of whom also belong to the ‘Wise Use’ groups. They usually not only want to keep paddlers off the rivers but they want to develop their land in any way they please even if it destroys natural resources. Some folks think if they own land that it ‘ALL MINE’ and I can do with it what I want while others see themselves as temporary stewards responsible for passing the land on to others to also will practice stewardship. It is a significant movement and unless paddlers and others become involved and pay attention – you’ll see more and more rivers placed off-limits. I’m amazed that if Colorado Law is what Mr. Weiser sez it is that ANY rivers out there can be accessed legally. Something doesn’t fit. I wonder how popular rivers fare on the access issue in that state. The thread has been excellent raising awareness  and I’ll bet more than a few now realize how important it is to contribute/join the AWA who works on behalf paddlers on access issues.

Response:

I apologize in advance, but there really is no diplomatic way to state this… ENOUGH WITH THE DAMN ACCESS DEBATE THREADS!

Thank you for that trenchant commentary. I am a kayaker.  I view and post to this newsgroup in order to keep abreast of new happenings in the sport I love.

And access debates have nothing to do with your sport?   Boy, are you deluded. And just what makes you think that anyone else is obliged to give a rodent’s fundamental orifice about why YOU choose to participate here or what YOU like or want? When I see three postings (or threads) involving a river access issue, I think "Good debate, there have been some valid issues presented here".  When I see thirty posts, mostly by one individual, I think "These (expletive’in) people have nothing better to do with their time."

Well, I do rather enjoy jousting with the fine folks here…and the Netwits too.  It’s my time to waste though, so what’s your beef? Remember, I only post in reply to a query or discussion from someone else who, axiomatically, *is* interested in the subject. Please, If you are absolutely hot-and-bothered to the point that you are treating this news group like your own personal chat-room, I understand…But keep it private, e-mail is really an ideal medium for this type of thing. Don’t clog this otherwise interesting group with twenty different post that are essentially the same in content.

Clog the group?   Have you ever heard of a concept called the "delete" key?  How about the "down arrow" key?  Both of them will allow you to completely bypass any discussion which might cause consternation and confusion in your tiny mind. There’s and even better one….it’s called the "OFF" switch.  Use it in good health, but USE it. If the posts are the same in content, it’s because others keep asking the same questions, and as long as they do, I’ll keep responding to them because it’s the polite thing to do. For the record, Yes, I do now know that Scott Weiser(sp?) is very familiar with private domain laws in Colorado and he would prefer that kayakers show a little more respect towards his family’s legal wishes.  I also know that there are a lot of disrespectful boaters out there that believe once the water droplet leaves the cloud, it is there God-given right to use it at their convenience.  Well folks, these are things I learned in the first few posts. I can see both sides of the argument, but really do not give a flying (expletive)!

And so you would impose your will on everyone else, some of whom might be interested, simply because you don’t have the wit to skip a thread. How very altruistic of you.  If you have any other opinions that you think I am interested in past that point, know that I am not.  If any of you involved in this thread think of any other gems that need to be discussed pertaining to this topic. Please, WRITE YOUR (EXPLETIVE’IN) CONGRESSMAN OR SHUT THE (EXPLETIVE) UP!

Let me see if I can put this delicately……No. If you don’t like the course of the conversation, then toddle off and start one of your own instead of sniping at the adults who are having an interesting discussion.   You sound like a three-year-old who’s whining and throwing a temper tantrum because Mommy is ignoring you. Grow up and act like an adult. Regards, Scott Weiser ****** "I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend upon my friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" ****** http://www.dimensional.com/~weiser/ Copyright 1998 by Scott Weiser Under the UCC, by the act of transmitting any commercial e-mail advertisment to this address, you are expressly contracting with me in my professional capacity for a consultation on the ad’s effectiveness and you expressly agree to pay to me the sum of $250.00 for each such consultation within 10 days of my report to the original sending address.  You further expressly agree that all actions for recovery of fees owed shall be subject solely to the laws of the State of Colorado, which shall have sole jurisdiction.

Response:

I think it’s kind of funny. Near the beginning of the great return of Weiser, everyone was more or less agreeing with him. Now he’s isolated himself against the NG again by posting more to this newsgroup on a few days than I have since I’ve started looking at it. "Regards," Sam Glover

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You know, I agree with just about everything Scott said in this post. Nobody forces you to read every article on the newsgroup.  Just skip over the threads you don’t like.  I know we’ve gone over this subject a zillion times, but apparently we keep getting new people in the group who are not aware of the differences in access laws from place to place.  Some of these people want argue with Scott, but it really won’t do them any good–they can’t change the laws of the state of Colorado. They do, however, learn from the exchanges.  And for every person who posts in the thread, there are at least ten who are reading it and learning from it.  If paddlers improve their behaviour wrt access, then maybe some irate landowners who have the power to block access to put-ins or even to the entire river may decide that paddlers aren’t so bad.  If these threads improve our collective behaviour enough that the closure of just one river is avoided, then it will be worthwhile.

Well said. I do take issue with one of Scott’s statements, though. Remember, I only post in reply to a query or discussion from someone else who, axiomatically, *is* interested in the subject. Scott, you were the first poster on this subject.  So one out of the dozens of your posts was NOT a repy.  (OK, I may be picking at straws there, but read on.)  Also, just the other day, you replied to a post that was completely unrelated (i.e. had nothing to do with access), and did so in a manner that seemed (to me) aimed at starting another big thread.  Hence, you do not ONLY post to reply to questions about access, although I would agree that the vast majority of your posts are valid replies.  If you had said that you "usually" or "generally only reply… then I would have no argument with your statement.

Well, you’ve got me there.  I admit to priming the pan from time to time, but you can hardly blame me when the flash occurs.   It’s possible for everyone to simply ignore my flashy lures, but it’s also highly unlikely, as I have discovered, and so I take advantage of that phenomenon to stimulate debate, and this has been another interesting and lively debate, and, as you so succintly said, some people learned something new.  Whether they like what they learned, or agree with it is unimportant, what’s important is that they have had their horizons expanded, which is *always* a good thing. Regards, Scott Weiser ****** "I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend upon my friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" ****** http://www.dimensional.com/~weiser/ Copyright 1998 by Scott Weiser Under the UCC, by the act of transmitting any commercial e-mail advertisment to this address, you are expressly contracting with me in my professional capacity for a consultation on the ad’s effectiveness and you expressly agree to pay to me the sum of $250.00 for each such consultation within 10 days of my report to the original sending address.  You further expressly agree that all actions for recovery of fees owed shall be subject solely to the laws of the State of Colorado, which shall have sole jurisdiction.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I apologize in advance, but there really is no diplomatic way to state this… ENOUGH WITH THE DAMN ACCESS DEBATE THREADS! I am a kayaker.  I view and post to this newsgroup in order to keep abreast of new happenings in the sport I love. When I see three postings (or threads) involving a river access issue, I think "Good debate, there have been some valid issues presented here".  When I see thirty posts, mostly by one individual, I think "These (expletive’in) people have nothing better to do with their time." Please, If you are absolutely hot-and-bothered to the point that you are treating this news group like your own personal chat-room, I understand…But keep it private, e-mail is really an ideal medium for this type of thing. Don’t clog this otherwise interesting group with twenty different post that are essentially the same in content. For the record, Yes, I do now know that Scott Weiser(sp?) is very familiar with private domain laws in Colorado and he would prefer that kayakers show a little more respect towards his family’s legal wishes.  I also know that there are a lot of disrespectful boaters out there that believe once the water droplet leaves the cloud, it is there God-given right to use it at their convenience.  Well folks, these are things I learned in the first few posts. I can see both sides of the argument, but really do not give a flying (expletive)!  If you have any other opinions that you think I am interested in past that point, know that I am not.  If any of you involved in this thread think of any other gems that need to be discussed pertaining to this topic. Please, WRITE YOUR (EXPLETIVE’IN) CONGRESSMAN OR SHUT THE (EXPLETIVE) UP! By the way, if any of you would like to paddle this weekend, let me know Let me out of this concrete jungle, -Craig "no playboat yet" Geist

You better watch out buddy … you started a new possible deadly feud here … you better know that Mr. Weiser is a very fast typist, commands the English language like no other, is an expert of all laws of the king’s land, he is a sharp shooter (he is also a gunsmithlike expert) and a land "king size" owner. You are doomed my friend! Scotty will beam your tired sorry paddling ass up! PS: I really felt sorry for the incident and for the two idiots that went after Mr. Weiser’s mother but this is to much! Fred Fred Mechini Visit my homepage  http://pluto.njcc.com/~fmec/Welcome.html A WEB PAGE DEDICATED TO OLYMPIC SPRINT KAYAK

Response:

You know, I agree with just about everything Scott said in this post. Nobody forces you to read every article on the newsgroup.  Just skip over the threads you don’t like.  I know we’ve gone over this subject a zillion times, but apparently we keep getting new people in the group who are not aware of the differences in access laws from place to place.  Some of these people want argue with Scott, but it really won’t do them any good–they can’t change the laws of the state of Colorado. They do, however, learn from the exchanges.  And for every person who posts in the thread, there are at least ten who are reading it and learning from it.  If paddlers improve their behaviour wrt access, then maybe some irate landowners who have the power to block access to put-ins or even to the entire river may decide that paddlers aren’t so bad.  If these threads improve our collective behaviour enough that the closure of just one river is avoided, then it will be worthwhile. I do take issue with one of Scott’s statements, though. Remember, I only post in reply to a query or discussion from someone else who, axiomatically, *is* interested in the subject.

Scott, you were the first poster on this subject.  So one out of the dozens of your posts was NOT a repy.  (OK, I may be picking at straws there, but read on.)  Also, just the other day, you replied to a post that was completely unrelated (i.e. had nothing to do with access), and did so in a manner that seemed (to me) aimed at starting another big thread.  Hence, you do not ONLY post to reply to questions about access, although I would agree that the vast majority of your posts are valid replies.  If you had said that you "usually" or "generally only reply… then I would have no argument with your statement. -Paul

Response:

I apologize in advance, but there really is no diplomatic way to state this… ENOUGH WITH THE DAMN ACCESS DEBATE THREADS! I am a kayaker.  I view and post to this newsgroup in order to keep abreast of new happenings in the sport I love. When I see three postings (or threads) involving a river access issue, I think "Good debate, there have been some valid issues presented here".  When I see thirty posts, mostly by one individual, I think "These (expletive’in) people have nothing better to do with their time." Please, If you are absolutely hot-and-bothered to the point that you are treating this news group like your own personal chat-room, I understand…But keep it private, e-mail is really an ideal medium for this type of thing. Don’t clog this otherwise interesting group with twenty different post that are essentially the same in content. For the record, Yes, I do now know that Scott Weiser(sp?) is very familiar with private domain laws in Colorado and he would prefer that kayakers show a little more respect towards his family’s legal wishes.  I also know that there are a lot of disrespectful boaters out there that believe once the water droplet leaves the cloud, it is there God-given right to use it at their convenience.  Well folks, these are things I learned in the first few posts. I can see both sides of the argument, but really do not give a flying (expletive)!  If you have any other opinions that you think I am interested in past that point, know that I am not.  If any of you involved in this thread think of any other gems that need to be discussed pertaining to this topic. Please, WRITE YOUR (EXPLETIVE’IN) CONGRESSMAN OR SHUT THE (EXPLETIVE) UP! By the way, if any of you would like to paddle this weekend, let me know Let me out of this concrete jungle, -Craig "no playboat yet" Geist

Response:

Question:

WebfootVA schreef: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – BTW, though you said you take it at night.  Do you eat dinner late or do you take it with a snack?  If I started to eat my dinner at 9pm I would not only have bad indigestion, I’d probably weigh about 10 pounds more than I do now! Hi Iris, I do both.  I used to eat late dinners when I worked until 9pm so I could eat with my husband in the past.  For me, this was never a big deal.  I either eat a very light dinner at 5pm with my kids and a big snack later on, or I just have a late dinner, but I always eat before the meds. I also work out 5-6 times a week in the mornings at the gym as I’ve tended to gain weight with any of the meds in the past and I didn’t want to go that route again.  It also helps a lot with the everyday stress and gives me exposure to the rapid heart rate….rapid breathing symptoms, which I’m hoping will eventually help me prevent relapse once this goes into remission again. take care, Lene Well, I’ll probably have to take it in the morning then, or at least with my dinner around 7pm.  If I eat much later, I feel queasy when I go to bed. I need to start working out again.  I don’t have a weight problem but I am noticing a growing flab problem!  Exercise was my salvation when I had PA’s 10 years ago, but now I’ve developed a bit of a phobia–also, I suspect tied to the rapid heart rate, sweating, etc. BTW, the doc wants me to start out on 25 mg for a week then increase to 50mg where I’ll stay if the drug is successful.  Is 25 mg a low enough dose to start? Should I ask him for a lower dose?  I only weigh about 112, although I have a friend who doesn’t even tip the scales at 100 lbs and she started at 50 mg with no problem. Ever more questions. Iris —

  Iris, I feel your doctor knows about your fear of meds (which I recognize completely) and therefore starts your medication on a very low dose indeed. You should have no problems taking this at any time of the day. And: the proof of the pudding is in the eating. Try it and do it asap because you’ve been torturing yourself for too long now. Just do it! You’ll survive. Just as I did, so many times now (and still fraking out over every new med but having learnt to take it. If I can do it, you certainly can! I wish you knew me better to discover how true this is… Philip Peters

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – WebfootVA schreef: BTW, though you said you take it at night.  Do you eat dinner late or do you take it with a snack?  If I started to eat my dinner at 9pm I would not only have bad indigestion, I’d probably weigh about 10 pounds more than I do now! Hi Iris, I do both.  I used to eat late dinners when I worked until 9pm so I could eat with my husband in the past.  For me, this was never a big deal.  I either eat a very light dinner at 5pm with my kids and a big snack later on, or I just have a late dinner, but I always eat before the meds. I also work out 5-6 times a week in the mornings at the gym as I’ve tended to gain weight with any of the meds in the past and I didn’t want to go that route again.  It also helps a lot with the everyday stress and gives me exposure to the rapid heart rate….rapid breathing symptoms, which I’m hoping will eventually help me prevent relapse once this goes into remission again. take care, Lene Well, I’ll probably have to take it in the morning then, or at least with my dinner around 7pm.  If I eat much later, I feel queasy when I go to bed. I need to start working out again.  I don’t have a weight problem but I am noticing a growing flab problem!  Exercise was my salvation when I had PA’s 10 years ago, but now I’ve developed a bit of a phobia–also, I suspect tied to the rapid heart rate, sweating, etc. BTW, the doc wants me to start out on 25 mg for a week then increase to 50mg where I’ll stay if the drug is successful.  Is 25 mg a low enough dose to start? Should I ask him for a lower dose?  I only weigh about 112, although I have a friend who doesn’t even tip the scales at 100 lbs and she started at 50 mg with no problem. Ever more questions. Iris —   Iris, I feel your doctor knows about your fear of meds (which I recognize completely) and therefore starts your medication on a very low dose indeed. You should have no problems taking this at any time of the day. And: the proof of the pudding is in the eating. Try it and do it asap because you’ve been torturing yourself for too long now. Just do it! You’ll survive. Just as I did, so many times now (and still fraking out over every new med but having learnt to take it. If I can do it, you certainly can! I wish you knew me better to discover how true this is… Philip Peters

Philip: What a nice reply!  I’m going to print it out and tape it to the mirror, ’cause I’ve decided I’m going to start tonight! Iris (hoping to be successful…) —

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – BTW, though you said you take it at night.  Do you eat dinner late or do you take it with a snack?  If I started to eat my dinner at 9pm I would not only have bad indigestion, I’d probably weigh about 10 pounds more than I do now! Hi Iris, I do both.  I used to eat late dinners when I worked until 9pm so I could eat with my husband in the past.  For me, this was never a big deal.  I either eat a very light dinner at 5pm with my kids and a big snack later on, or I just have a late dinner, but I always eat before the meds. I also work out 5-6 times a week in the mornings at the gym as I’ve tended to gain weight with any of the meds in the past and I didn’t want to go that route again.  It also helps a lot with the everyday stress and gives me exposure to the rapid heart rate….rapid breathing symptoms, which I’m hoping will eventually help me prevent relapse once this goes into remission again. take care, Lene

Well, I’ll probably have to take it in the morning then, or at least with my dinner around 7pm.  If I eat much later, I feel queasy when I go to bed. I need to start working out again.  I don’t have a weight problem but I am noticing a growing flab problem!  Exercise was my salvation when I had PA’s 10 years ago, but now I’ve developed a bit of a phobia–also, I suspect tied to the rapid heart rate, sweating, etc. BTW, the doc wants me to start out on 25 mg for a week then increase to 50mg where I’ll stay if the drug is successful.  Is 25 mg a low enough dose to start? Should I ask him for a lower dose?  I only weigh about 112, although I have a friend who doesn’t even tip the scales at 100 lbs and she started at 50 mg with no problem. Ever more questions. Iris —

Response:

BTW, though you said you take it at night.  Do you eat dinner late or do you take it with a snack?  If I started to eat my dinner at 9pm I would not only have bad indigestion, I’d probably weigh about 10 pounds more than I do now! Hi Iris,

I do both.  I used to eat late dinners when I worked until 9pm so I could eat with my husband in the past.  For me, this was never a big deal.  I either eat a very light dinner at 5pm with my kids and a big snack later on, or I just have a late dinner, but I always eat before the meds. I also work out 5-6 times a week in the mornings at the gym as I’ve tended to gain weight with any of the meds in the past and I didn’t want to go that route again.  It also helps a lot with the everyday stress and gives me exposure to the rapid heart rate….rapid breathing symptoms, which I’m hoping will eventually help me prevent relapse once this goes into remission again. take care, Lene – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

Okay, after taking Zoloft for the first time last night, I felt so wired up today. How long are the side effects going to take? Why do some people have more side effects at first than others? PS make sure you eat with it.  I noticed a BIG difference in severity of side effects depending on whether I had a full stomache or not.

Good advice Lene.  I’m still working on starting my Zoloft (sigh…) and the reason I was leaning toward taking it at breakfast was to lessen the side effect possibility.  I’ve had this reaction with several other drugs. If I take them with food (if it’s an option), I always tolerate them better.  I’m not a scientist, but I think food slows the absorbtion rate, so your body can better adjust. BTW, though you said you take it at night.  Do you eat dinner late or do you take it with a snack?  If I started to eat my dinner at 9pm I would not only have bad indigestion, I’d probably weigh about 10 pounds more than I do now! Iris —

Response:

Okay, after taking Zoloft for the first time last night, I felt so wired up today. How long are the side effects going to take?

<snipped for space I’m not a doctor but I do believe that, while there is a possibility that you are experiencing a reaction to Zoloft, it’s an infinitessimal one. Most likely you have hyped yourself up over it with anticipation. ISTM a little too early for any reaction at all, good or bad… Sad to say, we anxiety types do this all too easily — Gary Cooper

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Okay, after taking Zoloft for the first time last night, I felt so wired up today. How long are the side effects going to take? Why do some people have more side effects at first than others?

Side effects with zoloft at first are extremely common.  I’ve been on it for 10 weeks, My side effects lasted about four weeks.  However, my husband who is also on zoloft for chronic pain management had few side effects and none of the ones that I did.    I found that I had to work a bit with the time I took it, to manage the side effects better at first. Some people are just more sensitive to meds.  Myself included.  I usually have side effects to everything.  Try and keep in mind that that the side effects are a temporary situation and well worth getting through in order to give it a chance and see if this is the answer for you. PS make sure you eat with it.  I noticed a BIG difference in severity of side effects depending on whether I had a full stomache or not. take care Lene – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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Okay, after taking Zoloft for the first time last night, I felt so wired up today. How long are the side effects going to take? Why do some people have more side effects at first than others? Is it kind of a Riddlin effect.  Kids who take it and don’t need it tend to react to it differently and get hyped up.  and whereas kids who need the medication the most feel the effect immediately.    mmm.  in that case  is it true that if you’re feeling overanxious when initially using Zoloft   that you’re closer to healthy than you are sick?    just a hopeful thought

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