Question:

Thanks to all who replied to my question about Advair. We were very careful to keep the Flovent the same level (she used the Flovent inhaler in addition to the Advair to keep it equal) and she switched from a Serevent diskus, so all things should have been the same. However, I left the choice to her, and she decided to go back to the Serevent diskus and Flovent MDI. She hasn’t been having any problem since. I guess it’s a case of "different strokes for different folks." sue — Susan Hartman/Dirty Linen The Magazine of Folk and World Music http://www.dirtylinen.com

Response:

Does Advair have the same compounds as Pulmicort. Check with your doctor. Lane – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello. I’ve read lots of posts about Advair and seen that most people like it. But I’m still slightly concerned. My 13-y.o. daughter has severe asthma and takes Accolate, Serevent, Flovent, and Zyrtec. She’s been well controlled over the summer. In the past she has tried Pulmicort Turbohaler and had disastrous results. She couldn’t sleep at night, couldn’t wake in the morning, and had awful nightmares and almost "psychotic" dreams/nighttime episodes. This occured between 1-3 weeks after starting Pulmicort, and when we made the connection we put her back on Flovent and she was fine. (And this has happened twice, at 18-mo intervals). Well, she just started Advair about a week and a half ago and is starting to have trouble sleeping and waking. This morning she mentioned that she thinks it might be similar to the Pulmicort experience. But since it’s just the first couple of weeks of school, it’s hard to say whether it’s Advair-related or normal teen adjustment to a daytime schedule! Though she did also just yesterday have her first asthma flare in a long while – several weeks at least (used the neb for the first time since the beginning of summer). So my question is, has anyone had similar problems with Pulmicort Turbohaler, and what is the experience of those "sensitive" people to Advair? Is there something related to the delivery method? Or was the Pulmicort/Flovent difference related to the drug involved? I should also mention that’s she’s one of those unfortunate people who responds "over the top" to prednisone…every bad side effect known to woman! Munchies, water retention, screaming meanies, etc. Thanks for any light you can shed. Sue — Susan Hartman/Dirty Linen The Magazine of Folk and World Music http://www.dirtylinen.com

Response:

Her reaction to Advair shouldn’t be any different than her reaction to Flovent and Serevent since Advair is the combination of the 2 drugs in a more convenient form. What dose is she on? And did she increase her dose? For example if she was on Flovent 220 is her Advair 250/50? Or higher?

Response:

Well, she just started Advair about a week and a half ago and is starting to have trouble sleeping and waking. This morning she mentioned that she thinks it might be similar to the Pulmicort experience.

It may be an issue of dose. It is possible that her technique with the MDI is not optimal so what the doctor thinks is an equivalent dose of the dry powder inhalers is actually an increase. Advair comes in three different strengths so it may be possible to reduce her dose safely. — CBI, MD

Response:

I took Advair for about six weeks and finally decided to take a break inasmuch as my nasal passges have been very sore deuring that time.  I don’t know if there’s a connection, thus the break to see what happens.  If it clears up then reappears when I resume the Advair, then I’ve resolved the problem.  I did find that the NIH resume was most helpful … I don’t have it in front of me, but loss of sleep might’ve been one of the side effects. Hope this helps … Al Fisher

Response:

Hello. I’ve read lots of posts about Advair and seen that most people like it. But I’m still slightly concerned.

I loved Advair.  I was down to one puff a day, and was off my ventolin inhalers completely.  <I am one ofthose people who has cats, sleeps with them – and is allergic However, I also had a concern – I began having heart palpitaitons.  I checked the web for side effects, asked the doctor – and my concerns were dismissed.  I ended up in the hospital with Ventricular Tachycardia (VT). Normally a very healthy (other than the asthma) adult who hikes, bikes and climbs stairs, my energy level was dropping off the bottom. I have since read that the Advair guys had done some tests on VT and Advair, but I don’t know what the results were.  Why would they do the tests if there was no concern?  If you do develop VT from using Advair – does it disappear after you stop using it? Does anyone have any anecdotal evidence on this? Connie

Response:

I found on a switch from Aerobid to Flovent, that the switch itself caused me to be extremely sensitive for about 3 weeks. It wasn’t that the new drug didn’t work, I think it was that the old one quit before the new one built up. Time may help? LA – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello. I’ve read lots of posts about Advair and seen that most people like it. But I’m still slightly concerned. My 13-y.o. daughter has severe asthma and takes Accolate, Serevent, Flovent, and Zyrtec. She’s been well controlled over the summer. In the past she has tried Pulmicort Turbohaler and had disastrous results. She couldn’t sleep at night, couldn’t wake in the morning, and had awful nightmares and almost "psychotic" dreams/nighttime episodes. This occured between 1-3 weeks after starting Pulmicort, and when we made the connection we put her back on Flovent and she was fine. (And this has happened twice, at 18-mo intervals). Well, she just started Advair about a week and a half ago and is starting to have trouble sleeping and waking. This morning she mentioned that she thinks it might be similar to the Pulmicort experience. But since it’s just the first couple of weeks of school, it’s hard to say whether it’s Advair-related or normal teen adjustment to a daytime schedule! Though she did also just yesterday have her first asthma flare in a long while – several weeks at least (used the neb for the first time since the beginning of summer). So my question is, has anyone had similar problems with Pulmicort Turbohaler, and what is the experience of those "sensitive" people to Advair? Is there something related to the delivery method? Or was the Pulmicort/Flovent difference related to the drug involved? I should also mention that’s she’s one of those unfortunate people who responds "over the top" to prednisone…every bad side effect known to woman! Munchies, water retention, screaming meanies, etc. Thanks for any light you can shed. Sue — Susan Hartman/Dirty Linen The Magazine of Folk and World Music http://www.dirtylinen.com

Response:

Hello. I’ve read lots of posts about Advair and seen that most people like it. But I’m still slightly concerned. My 13-y.o. daughter has severe asthma and takes Accolate, Serevent, Flovent, and Zyrtec. She’s been well controlled over the summer. In the past she has tried Pulmicort Turbohaler and had disastrous results. She couldn’t sleep at night, couldn’t wake in the morning, and had awful nightmares and almost "psychotic" dreams/nighttime episodes. This occured between 1-3 weeks after starting Pulmicort, and when we made the connection we put her back on Flovent and she was fine. (And this has happened twice, at 18-mo intervals). Well, she just started Advair about a week and a half ago and is starting to have trouble sleeping and waking. This morning she mentioned that she thinks it might be similar to the Pulmicort experience. But since it’s just the first couple of weeks of school, it’s hard to say whether it’s Advair-related or normal teen adjustment to a daytime schedule! Though she did also just yesterday have her first asthma flare in a long while – several weeks at least (used the neb for the first time since the beginning of summer). So my question is, has anyone had similar problems with Pulmicort Turbohaler, and what is the experience of those "sensitive" people to Advair? Is there something related to the delivery method? Or was the Pulmicort/Flovent difference related to the drug involved? I should also mention that’s she’s one of those unfortunate people who responds "over the top" to prednisone…every bad side effect known to woman! Munchies, water retention, screaming meanies, etc. Thanks for any light you can shed. Sue — Susan Hartman/Dirty Linen The Magazine of Folk and World Music http://www.dirtylinen.com

Response:

Question:

Weel, the doctor’s second call yesterday was basically go see a doctor, whether it’s a normal doctor or an emergency room or whatever it takes.  So I went.  I got there about 7:45 pm, and left about 3:40 am.  That’s right, 8 hours.  One ambulance after another, and I kept getting bumped.  It’s kind of sad really,. I saw the triage number – I was a three.  A one is someone who is critical, 2, is less critical, 3 is moderate, 4 is cuts and bruises.  So I spent 45 minutes in a treatment room and 4 1/2 of those hours sitting on a gurney in the hallway, waiting for the doctor, or testing, or whatever.  Two breathing treatments, some blood tests, a chest x-ray, and a dose of pred. later, I finally went home.  I can actually breathe properly now, although my chest is still tight.  When I was in the ER, I was at that state where you can’t breathe with your diaphram, and you only breathe with your chest muscles.  I never realized how tiring that can be until last night. And now, I’m frustrated.  My pulmonologist said I had done everything right, and yet I still ended up in the ER.  If I had been home, it would have been an office visit, but still……I’m  on probably 3-5 times the medicine I was on last summer, and actually feel worse.  I was at the same peak flows last summer on 2 puffs of Vanceril twice a day.  Now I’m taking 2 puffs of Flovent 220 and 2-3 puffs of Serevent twice a day.  I have good relationships with both my pulmonologist and primary doctors, so when I tell them what’s going on we don’t have much discussion.  In fact, the ER doctor was thrilled to find out that I had my inhalers with me, had a prescription for prednisone, had a nebulizer, had a list of all my peak flows for the last year, and a written action plan.  When she started asking questions and I answered them all without too much effort, she said "you are probably the best thing to happen to me all night" – I knew what was going on, and that’s apparently a rare thing.  So what else is there? For someone who has it together, knows an adequate amount about their condition to be able to converse with a doctor about it, and knows what to do when, ending up getting sick over and over again is difficult to handle. janet

Response:

Weel, the doctor’s second call yesterday was basically go see a doctor, whether it’s a normal doctor or an emergency room or whatever it takes.  So I went.  I got there about 7:45 pm, and left about 3:40 am.  That’s right, 8 hours. One ambulance after another, and I kept getting bumped.  It’s kind of sad really,. I saw the triage number – I was a three.  A one is someone who is critical, 2, is less critical, 3 is moderate, 4 is cuts and bruises.  So I spent 45 minutes in a treatment room and 4 1/2 of those hours sitting on a gurney in the hallway, waiting for the doctor, or testing, or whatever.

I guess that it depends on what hospital you go to (and when).  When I last had to hit an ER I was literally disorentated by the speed which I was treated.  I had one nurse inserting an IV, another attaching the wires for the EKG, another checking my vitals (I knew I made the right decision when she reported: "Faint breath sounds left lung – no breath sounds right lung.") and the doctor hooking me up to oxygen.  (They also did a peakflow on me and I blew a 110 out of a personal best of 650). And now, I’m frustrated.  My pulmonologist said I had done everything right, and yet I still ended up in the ER.

It happens.  I caught a mild cold then was unexpecdly stuck outside on a cold windy day.  Sometimes we just get caught in a bad situation. rare thing.  So what else is there? For someone who has it together, knows an adequate amount about their condition to be able to converse with a doctor about it, and knows what to do when, ending up getting sick over and over again is difficult to handle.

We just do the best we can.  There are no easy answers and asthma can (and does) get better or worse for no easily discernable reason.

Response:

Question:

$240 for a "trial" package?  You guys gotta be kidding!  Is anybody who subscribes to this group stupid enough to send these assholes money? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, We are writing to announce that Johnny Powers has joined as a partner with William Lee, and we now have both the 20mg Lilly Icos original Cialis and the 20mg Chinese manufactured generic Cialis available. business. Lee did not save his emails offline, so he has no record of your order. However, as his partner, Johnny Powers will honor every commitment that William Lee made.  If you have an order of the generic 20mg Chinese Cialis pending, just write to us with the banking and the order details, and we will get the package mailed off to you. So, this is what we have now Real (Lilly Icos) 20mg Cialis Tablets Available for Sale in Quantity 1.)Small trial sample   $15 USD per pill.  16 pills for $15 each, that would be $240  for a 16 pill personal use supply.  (16 pills = 4 blister packs) 2.)Personal use supply   $10 USD per pill.  60 pills for $10 each, that would be $600  for a nice 60 pill personal use supply.  (60 pills = 15 blister packs) 3.)Large Lot sales    $5 USD per pill.  We are willing to really deeply discount to sell in large lots.  We are willing to sell 1,000 pill lots for $5 each, that would be $5,000 for a 1,000 pills.  (1,000 pills = 250 blister packs) Now, We Also Have Generic Chinese Cialis 20mg Pills Available at the following prices: 100 pills for $99-USD  (0.99 per pill) 200 pills for $180-USD  (0.90  per pill) 300 pills for $245-USD  (0.817 per pill) These prices for both the Generic and the Lilly Pharmaceuticals Cialis include shipping to any destination via parcel post.  We have had no problems with any countrys customs.  We place industry standard labeling and customs declarations on the package, and we have our doctors letter inside the package. Please write for ordering instructions Security Issues, we will not allow ourselves to be run out the business, the way that my friend William Lee was treated by Yahoo. Whenever we correspond, I will always send a bcc copy to my Hotmail Save that Hotmail address.  Email to us at Hotmail should hushmail ever fail. Should hushmail roll-over for the net nannies and shut down this account, we will still have your order information at hotmail, and saved offline on our laptops, and we will not loose or otherwise fail to honor any commitments that we make

Response:

There’s a sucker born every minute..

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – $240 for a "trial" package?  You guys gotta be kidding!  Is anybody who subscribes to this group stupid enough to send these assholes money? Hello, We are writing to announce that Johnny Powers has joined as a partner with William Lee, and we now have both the 20mg Lilly Icos original Cialis and the 20mg Chinese manufactured generic Cialis available. business. Lee did not save his emails offline, so he has no record of your order. However, as his partner, Johnny Powers will honor every commitment that William Lee made.  If you have an order of the generic 20mg Chinese Cialis pending, just write to us with the banking and the order details, and we will get the package mailed off to you. So, this is what we have now Real (Lilly Icos) 20mg Cialis Tablets Available for Sale in Quantity 1.)Small trial sample   $15 USD per pill.  16 pills for $15 each, that would be $240  for a 16 pill personal use supply.  (16 pills = 4 blister packs) 2.)Personal use supply   $10 USD per pill.  60 pills for $10 each, that would be $600  for a nice 60 pill personal use supply.  (60 pills = 15 blister packs) 3.)Large Lot sales    $5 USD per pill.  We are willing to really deeply discount to sell in large lots.  We are willing to sell 1,000 pill lots for $5 each, that would be $5,000 for a 1,000 pills.  (1,000 pills = 250 blister packs) Now, We Also Have Generic Chinese Cialis 20mg Pills Available at the following prices: 100 pills for $99-USD  (0.99 per pill) 200 pills for $180-USD  (0.90  per pill) 300 pills for $245-USD  (0.817 per pill) These prices for both the Generic and the Lilly Pharmaceuticals Cialis include shipping to any destination via parcel post.  We have had no problems with any countrys customs.  We place industry standard labeling and customs declarations on the package, and we have our doctors letter inside the package. Please write for ordering instructions Security Issues, we will not allow ourselves to be run out the business, the way that my friend William Lee was treated by Yahoo. Whenever we correspond, I will always send a bcc copy to my Hotmail Save that Hotmail address.  Email to us at Hotmail should hushmail ever fail. Should hushmail roll-over for the net nannies and shut down this account, we will still have your order information at hotmail, and saved offline on our laptops, and we will not loose or otherwise fail to honor any commitments that we make

Response:

Hello, We are writing to announce that Johnny Powers has joined as a partner with William Lee, and we now have both the 20mg Lilly Icos original Cialis and the 20mg Chinese manufactured generic Cialis available. business. Lee did not save his emails offline, so he has no record of your order. However, as his partner, Johnny Powers will honor every commitment that William Lee made.  If you have an order of the generic 20mg Chinese Cialis pending, just write to us with the banking and the order details, and we will get the package mailed off to you. So, this is what we have now Real (Lilly Icos) 20mg Cialis Tablets Available for Sale in Quantity 1.)Small trial sample   $15 USD per pill.  16 pills for $15 each, that would be $240  for a 16 pill personal use supply.  (16 pills = 4 blister packs) 2.)Personal use supply   $10 USD per pill.  60 pills for $10 each, that would be $600  for a nice 60 pill personal use supply.  (60 pills = 15 blister packs) 3.)Large Lot sales    $5 USD per pill.  We are willing to really deeply discount to sell in large lots.  We are willing to sell 1,000 pill lots for $5 each, that would be $5,000 for a 1,000 pills.  (1,000 pills = 250 blister packs) Now, We Also Have Generic Chinese Cialis 20mg Pills Available at the following prices: 100 pills for $99-USD  (0.99 per pill) 200 pills for $180-USD  (0.90  per pill) 300 pills for $245-USD  (0.817 per pill) These prices for both the Generic and the Lilly Pharmaceuticals Cialis include shipping to any destination via parcel post.  We have had no problems with any countrys customs.  We place industry standard labeling and customs declarations on the package, and we have our doctors letter inside the package. Please write for ordering instructions Security Issues, we will not allow ourselves to be run out the business, the way that my friend William Lee was treated by Yahoo. Whenever we correspond, I will always send a bcc copy to my Hotmail Save that Hotmail address.  Email to us at Hotmail should hushmail ever fail. Should hushmail roll-over for the net nannies and shut down this account, we will still have your order information at hotmail, and saved offline on our laptops, and we will not loose or otherwise fail to honor any commitments that we make

Response:

Question:

Hey Don, My running partner has asthma and routinely runs Ultra Marathons. If you write me I’ll forward your address with your permission to him. He might

Response:

        Some meds such as Ventolin or sodium chromolyn are often prescriobed to be taken before exercise.  When I do hard runs, I hit the puffer.  On easy days, I usually do not (preference on my part). – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Does anyone out there have advice for running with asthma.  I ran in highschool and my best times were around 16:30 for the 5K and 35 for the 10k and continued to run sporadically thru college . I got out of shape later in life and developed asthma, since then I have been running for a year and a half and can’t seem to get in shape or run faster than 7 minute pace, yet I’m only 33.  Mentally I know I’m capable of at least running close to those highschool times as I never really even did any speed work in hs and college, just went for long runs. Any advice please Frustrated runner

Response:

Don, I have asthma and had used Ventolin for years (and Cromolyn and epinephrine and bronkaid and Prednisone and Beclovent and Beclofort and side-stream at the hospital and … on and on and on), since I was 18 (I am now 45), up until last fall. I then consulted another lung specialist. He categorized me as "severely asthmatic" and put me on two new meds; Serevent (2 puffs x 2 daily) and Flovent (2 puffs x 2 daily). Since then, almost 1 year, I have used my Ventolin … once! I used it practically daily up until I started the new meds. I now "never" use Ventolin during my runs (I "always" used it before), my breathing is stronger, my lungs feel stronger and life, overall is that much better. I’ll stop sounding like a shill for pharmaceutical companies now and get on to the … ***SOLICITED ADVICE SECTION*** I’m not saying that these meds will do for you what they do for me … we are all different. What I’m saying is this; There is help out there for asthmatics that wasn’t available even 1 or 2 years ago. Do your homework, see a specialist, get a diagnosis … and get back to running. Geoff *18 days to Seattle Marathon!!* Nash – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Does anyone out there have advice for running with asthma

Response:

Does anyone out there have advice for running with asthma.  I ran in highschool and my best times were around 16:30 for the 5K and 35 for the 10k and continued to run sporadically thru college . I got out of shape later in life and developed asthma, since then I have been running for a year and a half and can’t seem to get in shape or run faster than 7 minute pace, yet I’m only 33.  Mentally I know I’m capable of at least running close to those highschool times as I never really even did any speed work in hs and college, just went for long runs. Any advice please Frustrated runner

Response:

Hey there.  There’s another thread here about this same topic, you should check it out.  You didn’t mention being on any medications; there’s some really good ones out there.  For example, there is Ventolin, which is good for stopping your wheezing once you’ve already started.  I can also use it just before easy runs; but it does increase your heart rate so it’s probably not a good idea for those days when you push yourself.  Another really great one is cromolyn, which prevents wheezing in the first place.  Unless it’s cold, what’s probably happening is that your lungs are hypersensitized to pollutants.  Cells in your lungs release nasty stuff that constricts your airways (in case you’re interested); cromolyn stops those cells from ever releasing that stuff. Ventolin opens your airways up afterwards.  Cold weather may be different; I don’t think anybody really knows how that works.  The cromolyn that I’m taking doesn’t really seem to help there.  Ozzie has mentioned breathing through your nose (thanks Ozzie!); I’ve also heard that wrapping a scarf around your mouth helps too. Either way, the air gets warmed before it hits your lungs. Just to be on the safe side, you may want to get your wheezing checked out, just in case it’s heart-related and not lung-related.  It’s much more likely to be asthma than anything else, but I’m quite the hypochrondriac! Good luck! Jo. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Does anyone out there have advice for running with asthma.  I ran in highschool and my best times were around 16:30 for the 5K and 35 for the 10k and continued to run sporadically thru college . I got out of shape later in life and developed asthma, since then I have been running for a year and a half and can’t seem to get in shape or run faster than 7 minute pace, yet I’m only 33.  Mentally I know I’m capable of at least running close to those highschool times as I never really even did any speed work in hs and college, just went for long runs. Any advice please Frustrated runner

Response:

Question:

Hi Tony, I am feeling much, much better. The increase in Effexor XR has helped as has being removed from the source of my stress, albeit temporarily. I am taking life very easy right now:) Thanks and love Meryl

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How are you feeling, ((((((Meryl)))) SSRIs cannot "erase" the ongoing problems in our lives, but increases may be necessary to function in everyday life. Saying a prayer that you find an answer to this depression. Take it easy on yourself, Tony — "Life is what happens to you while you’re busy making other plans"  ~ John Lennon — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

– The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Hi Tony, I am feeling much, much better. The increase in Effexor XR has helped as has being removed from the source of my stress, albeit temporarily. I am taking life very easy right now:) Thanks and love Meryl

This is very good news! It makes me feel good. Philip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How are you feeling, ((((((Meryl)))) SSRIs cannot "erase" the ongoing problems in our lives, but increases may be necessary to function in everyday life. Saying a prayer that you find an answer to this depression. Take it easy on yourself, Tony — "Life is what happens to you while you’re busy making other plans" ~ John Lennon — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

– The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Hi Tony, I am feeling much, much better. The increase in Effexor XR has helped as has being removed from the source of my stress, albeit temporarily. I am taking life very easy right now:) Thanks and love Meryl This is very good news! It makes me feel good. Philip

Thanks Philip, Just have to make it last. At least I know I am still here under all the anxiety and depression. love Meryl — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

So glad you upped your meds, dear Meryl.  Later, once your life quiets down, you can always lower it again. Take care, Liz I have just agreed to increase my Effexor dose as I have a recurrence of depression. I am now at 300 mg. Part of my initial concern was that I worried I might be at the maximum dose but my pdoc has told me this is incorrect. Actually his words were, "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing":) I know there are other posters taking Effexor. Would any mind sharing their prescribed dose? I have been taking Effexor for years and it does lift my mood. I took 75 mg for 2 years, then 150 for a year, then 225 and as of now 300 mg. All increases have occured when I was struggling with difficult RL events. love Meryl

– The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Hi Liz, I am noticing an improvement. Had my longest sleep in 6 weeks last night:) I think I have been caught out by the fact that sorting out RL stuff is taking much longer than I anticipated. This has meant prolonged anxiety and worry. It will end. love Meryl

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So glad you upped your meds, dear Meryl.  Later, once your life quiets down, you can always lower it again. Take care, Liz I have just agreed to increase my Effexor dose as I have a recurrence of depression. I am now at 300 mg. Part of my initial concern was that I worried I might be at the maximum dose but my pdoc has told me this is incorrect. Actually his words were, "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing":) I know there are other posters taking Effexor. Would any mind sharing their prescribed dose? I have been taking Effexor for years and it does lift my mood. I took 75 mg for 2 years, then 150 for a year, then 225 and as of now 300 mg. All increases have occured when I was struggling with difficult RL events. love Meryl — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

– The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Hi, Meryl, You are sounding better and very positive!!! smiles, Elise

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Liz, I am noticing an improvement. Had my longest sleep in 6 weeks last night:) I think I have been caught out by the fact that sorting out RL stuff is taking much longer than I anticipated. This has meant prolonged anxiety and worry. It will end. love Meryl So glad you upped your meds, dear Meryl.  Later, once your life quiets down, you can always lower it again. Take care, Liz I have just agreed to increase my Effexor dose as I have a recurrence of depression. I am now at 300 mg. Part of my initial concern was that I worried I might be at the maximum dose but my pdoc has told me this is incorrect. Actually his words were, "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing":) I know there are other posters taking Effexor. Would any mind sharing their prescribed dose? I have been taking Effexor for years and it does lift my mood. I took 75 mg for 2 years, then 150 for a year, then 225 and as of now 300 mg. All increases have occured when I was struggling with difficult RL events. love Meryl — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

– The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

love Meryl

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, Meryl, You are sounding better and very positive!!! smiles, Elise Hi Liz, I am noticing an improvement. Had my longest sleep in 6 weeks last night:) I think I have been caught out by the fact that sorting out RL stuff is taking much longer than I anticipated. This has meant prolonged anxiety and worry. It will end. love Meryl So glad you upped your meds, dear Meryl.  Later, once your life quiets down, you can always lower it again. Take care, Liz I have just agreed to increase my Effexor dose as I have a recurrence of depression. I am now at 300 mg. Part of my initial concern was that I worried I might be at the maximum dose but my pdoc has told me this is incorrect. Actually his words were, "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing":) I know there are other posters taking Effexor. Would any mind sharing their prescribed dose? I have been taking Effexor for years and it does lift my mood. I took 75 mg for 2 years, then 150 for a year, then 225 and as of now 300 mg. All increases have occured when I was struggling with difficult RL events. love Meryl — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

– The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Hi Liz, I am noticing an improvement. Had my longest sleep in 6 weeks last night:) I think I have been caught out by the fact that sorting out RL stuff is taking much longer than I anticipated. This has meant prolonged anxiety and worry. It will end. love Meryl

Glad you are feeling an improvement, Meryl.  This is good news.   Take care, Liz — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

How are you feeling, ((((((Meryl)))) SSRIs cannot "erase" the ongoing problems in our lives, but increases may be necessary to function in everyday life. Saying a prayer that you find an answer to this depression. Take it easy on yourself, Tony — "Life is what happens to you while you’re busy making other plans"  ~ John Lennon — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

It does help:) Thanks Bob, love Meryl

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Meryl, I am on 300mg. and so is my brother.  I am pretty sure I have been on 450, almost positive.  I *think* my doc told me at some point that there are new thoughts amongst psychopharmocologists on how much effexor is acceptable/helpful. hope this helps, bob I have just agreed to increase my Effexor dose as I have a recurrence of depression. I am now at 300 mg. Part of my initial concern was that I worried I might be at the maximum dose but my pdoc has told me this is incorrect. Actually his words were, "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing":) I know there are other posters taking Effexor. Would any mind sharing their prescribed dose? I have been taking Effexor for years and it does lift my mood. I took 75 mg for 2 years, then 150 for a year, then 225 and as of now 300 mg. All increases have occured when I was struggling with difficult RL events. love Meryl — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

– The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Meryl, I am on 300mg. and so is my brother.  I am pretty sure I have been on 450, almost positive.  I *think* my doc told me at some point that there are new thoughts amongst psychopharmocologists on how much effexor is acceptable/helpful. hope this helps, bob

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have just agreed to increase my Effexor dose as I have a recurrence of depression. I am now at 300 mg. Part of my initial concern was that I worried I might be at the maximum dose but my pdoc has told me this is incorrect. Actually his words were, "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing":) I know there are other posters taking Effexor. Would any mind sharing their prescribed dose? I have been taking Effexor for years and it does lift my mood. I took 75 mg for 2 years, then 150 for a year, then 225 and as of now 300 mg. All increases have occured when I was struggling with difficult RL events. love Meryl — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

– The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Hi Rita, Yes it is about *if*  :) I can and do increase my Xanax when necessary. The former levels worked each time. It just seems that I’m OK for 9- 12 months and then I start to get overwhelmed and the depression resurfaces. It is my hope that when the current stressors in my personal life diminish, my need for increased medication will do likewise. love Meryl

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Wow, what a memory!  Yeah, I can see your concern, but if, IF, that should ever happen, your doc may just add a bit of another AD along with the Effexor.  Or even increase your Xanax a little.   Who knows?   Maybe you should have been on this higher level all along.   I’ve been on the same level for three years.   We tried to go higher but just one little dose higher of Effexor made me climb the walls.  That’s when my p-doc knew I was on the right dose. xxoo Rita Thanks Rita but I remember your dose:) When having my script for 300 mg approved my psychiatrist stated my level of depression as major. I also take Xanax for my Panic Disorder. I have increased my dose. I believe it will help. My concern was more the fact that if I am near the upper level I may eventually need to find another AD, but I guess I am a bit ahead of myself. Thnks, love Meryl Hi Meryl…I was going to tell you what my dose level was because you asked, but I changed my mind.   The reason is my level of depression is most likely different than yours, plus I take Xanax along with it, so that also changes things. I agree with your doctor’s words about a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.  My way of thinking is that it doesn’t matter how high or how low a dose of Effexor someone else is taking….what matters is what works for you. If you trust your doctor and he’s done well for you, then I would go along with his advise on upping the dose.   He knows your case better than any of us do, plus we’re not doctors.   Nothing is written in stone…if the dose is too high for you, all you need do is wean down to the lower dose. Just my two cents worth…. Rita xxoo If you find it’s too high a dose, you can always wean down again. Nothing is written in stone. I have just agreed to increase my Effexor dose as I have a recurrence of depression. I am now at 300 mg. Part of my initial concern was that I worried I might be at the maximum dose but my pdoc has told me this is incorrect. Actually his words were, "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing":) I know there are other posters taking Effexor. Would any mind sharing their prescribed dose? I have been taking Effexor for years and it does lift my mood. I took 75 mg for 2 years, then 150 for a year, then 225 and as of now 300 mg. All increases have occured when I was struggling with difficult RL events. love Meryl — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

– The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – :I have just agreed to increase my Effexor dose as I have a recurrence of :depression. I am now at 300 mg. Part of my initial concern was that I :worried I might be at the maximum dose but my pdoc has told me this is :incorrect. Actually his words were, "A little knowledge is a dangerous :thing":) :I know there are other posters taking Effexor. Would any mind sharing their :prescribed dose? I have been taking Effexor for years and it does lift my :mood. I took 75 mg for 2 years, then 150 for a year, then 225 and as of now :300 mg. :All increases have occured when I was struggling with difficult RL events. Dear Meryl, Sorry you are struggling with depression. Good luck with the med increase…….I hope it helps. (((((Meryl))))) Jackie ~*~If I could wish for my life to be perfect, it would be tempting but I would have to decline, for life would no longer teach me anything~*~

Thanks Jackie, Increasing Effexor has helped in the past. I see no reason why it won’t this time. love Meryl — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

:I have just agreed to increase my Effexor dose as I have a recurrence of :depression. I am now at 300 mg. Part of my initial concern was that I :worried I might be at the maximum dose but my pdoc has told me this is :incorrect. Actually his words were, "A little knowledge is a dangerous :thing":) :I know there are other posters taking Effexor. Would any mind sharing their :prescribed dose? I have been taking Effexor for years and it does lift my :mood. I took 75 mg for 2 years, then 150 for a year, then 225 and as of now :300 mg. :All increases have occured when I was struggling with difficult RL events. Dear Meryl, Sorry you are struggling with depression. Good luck with the med increase…….I hope it helps. (((((Meryl))))) Jackie ~*~If I could wish for my life to be perfect, it would be tempting but I would have to decline, for life would no longer teach me anything~*~ — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Wow, what a memory!  Yeah, I can see your concern, but if, IF, that should ever happen, your doc may just add a bit of another AD along with the Effexor.  Or even increase your Xanax a little.   Who knows?   Maybe you should have been on this higher level all along.   I’ve been on the same level for three years.   We tried to go higher but just one little dose higher of Effexor made me climb the walls.  That’s when my p-doc knew I was on the right dose. xxoo Rita

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks Rita but I remember your dose:) When having my script for 300 mg approved my psychiatrist stated my level of depression as major. I also take Xanax for my Panic Disorder. I have increased my dose. I believe it will help. My concern was more the fact that if I am near the upper level I may eventually need to find another AD, but I guess I am a bit ahead of myself. Thnks, love Meryl Hi Meryl…I was going to tell you what my dose level was because you asked, but I changed my mind.   The reason is my level of depression is most likely different than yours, plus I take Xanax along with it, so that also changes things. I agree with your doctor’s words about a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.  My way of thinking is that it doesn’t matter how high or how low a dose of Effexor someone else is taking….what matters is what works for you. If you trust your doctor and he’s done well for you, then I would go along with his advise on upping the dose.   He knows your case better than any of us do, plus we’re not doctors.   Nothing is written in stone…if the dose is too high for you, all you need do is wean down to the lower dose. Just my two cents worth…. Rita xxoo If you find it’s too high a dose, you can always wean down again. Nothing is written in stone. I have just agreed to increase my Effexor dose as I have a recurrence of depression. I am now at 300 mg. Part of my initial concern was that I worried I might be at the maximum dose but my pdoc has told me this is incorrect. Actually his words were, "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing":) I know there are other posters taking Effexor. Would any mind sharing their prescribed dose? I have been taking Effexor for years and it does lift my mood. I took 75 mg for 2 years, then 150 for a year, then 225 and as of now 300 mg. All increases have occured when I was struggling with difficult RL events. love Meryl — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

– The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Thanks Rita but I remember your dose:) When having my script for 300 mg approved my psychiatrist stated my level of depression as major. I also take Xanax for my Panic Disorder. I have increased my dose. I believe it will help. My concern was more the fact that if I am near the upper level I may eventually need to find another AD, but I guess I am a bit ahead of myself. Thnks, love Meryl

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Meryl…I was going to tell you what my dose level was because you asked, but I changed my mind.   The reason is my level of depression is most likely different than yours, plus I take Xanax along with it, so that also changes things. I agree with your doctor’s words about a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.  My way of thinking is that it doesn’t matter how high or how low a dose of Effexor someone else is taking….what matters is what works for you. If you trust your doctor and he’s done well for you, then I would go along with his advise on upping the dose.   He knows your case better than any of us do, plus we’re not doctors.   Nothing is written in stone…if the dose is too high for you, all you need do is wean down to the lower dose. Just my two cents worth…. Rita xxoo If you find it’s too high a dose, you can always wean down again. Nothing is written in stone. I have just agreed to increase my Effexor dose as I have a recurrence of depression. I am now at 300 mg. Part of my initial concern was that I worried I might be at the maximum dose but my pdoc has told me this is incorrect. Actually his words were, "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing":) I know there are other posters taking Effexor. Would any mind sharing their prescribed dose? I have been taking Effexor for years and it does lift my mood. I took 75 mg for 2 years, then 150 for a year, then 225 and as of now 300 mg. All increases have occured when I was struggling with difficult RL events. love Meryl — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

– The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Hi Meryl…I was going to tell you what my dose level was because you asked, but I changed my mind.   The reason is my level of depression is most likely different than yours, plus I take Xanax along with it, so that also changes things. I agree with your doctor’s words about a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.  My way of thinking is that it doesn’t matter how high or how low a dose of Effexor someone else is taking….what matters is what works for you. If you trust your doctor and he’s done well for you, then I would go along with his advise on upping the dose.   He knows your case better than any of us do, plus we’re not doctors.   Nothing is written in stone…if the dose is too high for you, all you need do is wean down to the lower dose. Just my two cents worth…. Rita xxoo If you find it’s too high a dose, you can always wean down again.   Nothing is written in stone.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have just agreed to increase my Effexor dose as I have a recurrence of depression. I am now at 300 mg. Part of my initial concern was that I worried I might be at the maximum dose but my pdoc has told me this is incorrect. Actually his words were, "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing":) I know there are other posters taking Effexor. Would any mind sharing their prescribed dose? I have been taking Effexor for years and it does lift my mood. I took 75 mg for 2 years, then 150 for a year, then 225 and as of now 300 mg. All increases have occured when I was struggling with difficult RL events. love Meryl — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

– The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

I have just agreed to increase my Effexor dose as I have a recurrence of depression. I am now at 300 mg. Part of my initial concern was that I worried I might be at the maximum dose but my pdoc has told me this is incorrect. Actually his words were, "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing":) I know there are other posters taking Effexor. Would any mind sharing their prescribed dose? I have been taking Effexor for years and it does lift my mood. I took 75 mg for 2 years, then 150 for a year, then 225 and as of now 300 mg. All increases have occured when I was struggling with difficult RL events. love Meryl — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m a 30 year old male already suffering from hairloss. I was thinking of starting to take antidepressants, but I don’t want to take a drug that will accelerate my already natural hairloss. Has anyone experienced hairloss using the following drugs: 1. Fluvoxamine (Luvox) 2. Fluoxetine (Prozac) 3. Sertraline (Zoloft) 4. Paroxetine (Paxil) 5. Citalopram (Celexa) 6. Clomipramine (Anafranil) 7. Venlafaxine (Effexor) Try Wellbutrin. It causes a larger output of…er…you know. The intensity  will make you forget about hair loss. Do a google search on ASD-med  using words hair and Wellbutrin. Posters have repeatedly reported hair loss,  and or courser hair from WB. .

My hair is growing faster. I think everything is being produced faster. I just started Rispardol and it put a slight damper on everythiung feelings-wise. (.5 mg)

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m a 30 year old male already suffering from hairloss. I was thinking of starting to take antidepressants, but I don’t want to take a drug that will accelerate my already natural hairloss. Has anyone experienced hairloss using the following drugs: 1. Fluvoxamine (Luvox) 2. Fluoxetine (Prozac) 3. Sertraline (Zoloft) 4. Paroxetine (Paxil) 5. Citalopram (Celexa) 6. Clomipramine (Anafranil) 7. Venlafaxine (Effexor) Try Wellbutrin. It causes a larger output of…er…you know. The intensity  will make you forget about hair loss.

Do a google search on ASD-med  using words hair and Wellbutrin. Posters have repeatedly reported hair loss,  and or courser hair from WB. .

Response:

I’m a 30 year old male already suffering from hairloss. I was thinking of starting to take antidepressants, but I don’t want to take a drug that will accelerate my already natural hairloss. Has anyone experienced hairloss using the following drugs:

LOL. Don’t worry about the hairloss. I’ve never heard of SSRIs causing hairloss. Of the ones you listed I would pick fluoxetine because (I’m assuming you’re in the U.S.), it’s the cheapest – you can get generic fluoxetine now because Eli Lilly’s patent has run out. None of them are necessarily better than any other, but they have slightly different side-effect profiles. Zoloft was very friendly side-effects wise for me, so you may want to consider that. However because it has a short half-life, you may get withdrawals (I did). I don’t think anyone has got withdrawals from fluoxetine because of its very long half life. I would leave Effexor as a second option if the SSRI stops working, or doesn’t work at all. It has very bad withdrawals from what I’ve read. And it seems it’s extremely expensive over there (correct me if I’m wrong). — Regards, .

Response:

stimulants like wellbutrin will only make it worse in the long run and wellbutrin is even more likely to give you tardive dyskinesia than the ssris’s – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m a 30 year old male already suffering from hairloss. I was thinking of starting to take antidepressants, but I don’t want to take a drug that will accelerate my already natural hairloss. Has anyone experienced hairloss using the following drugs: 1. Fluvoxamine (Luvox) 2. Fluoxetine (Prozac) 3. Sertraline (Zoloft) 4. Paroxetine (Paxil) 5. Citalopram (Celexa) 6. Clomipramine (Anafranil) 7. Venlafaxine (Effexor) Try Wellbutrin. It causes a larger output of…er…you know. The intensity  will make you forget about hair loss.

– Steroids caused my depression, infertility, breast development and shrunken testicles …prednisone should be used conservatively Eric

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m a 30 year old male already suffering from hairloss. I was thinking of starting to take antidepressants, but I don’t want to take a drug that will accelerate my already natural hairloss. Has anyone experienced hairloss using the following drugs: 1. Fluvoxamine (Luvox) 2. Fluoxetine (Prozac) 3. Sertraline (Zoloft) 4. Paroxetine (Paxil) 5. Citalopram (Celexa) 6. Clomipramine (Anafranil) 7. Venlafaxine (Effexor)

Try Wellbutrin. It causes a larger output of…er…you know. The intensity  will make you forget about hair loss.

Response:

Why not try mirtazapine? I can’t believe how fast my hair has been growing since i started it. My barber has even commented on it.

Response:

Sorry, too depressed to care about hair loss. — Teilhard Knight The Extraterrestrial Who ate my sandwich? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m a 30 year old male already suffering from hairloss. I was thinking of starting to take antidepressants, but I don’t want to take a drug that will accelerate my already natural hairloss. Has anyone experienced hairloss using the following drugs: 1. Fluvoxamine (Luvox) 2. Fluoxetine (Prozac) 3. Sertraline (Zoloft) 4. Paroxetine (Paxil) 5. Citalopram (Celexa) 6. Clomipramine (Anafranil) 7. Venlafaxine (Effexor)

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m a 30 year old male already suffering from hairloss. I was thinking of starting to take antidepressants, but I don’t want to take a drug that will accelerate my already natural hairloss. Has anyone experienced hairloss using the following drugs: 1. Fluvoxamine (Luvox) 2. Fluoxetine (Prozac) 3. Sertraline (Zoloft) 4. Paroxetine (Paxil) 5. Citalopram (Celexa) 6. Clomipramine (Anafranil) 7. Venlafaxine (Effexor)

Shave your head. It’s the *in* thing to do anyway. Lots of girls are liking the "Mr. Clean" look nowadays.

Response:

I’m a 30 year old male already suffering from hairloss. I was thinking of starting to take antidepressants, but I don’t want to take a drug that will accelerate my already natural hairloss. Has anyone experienced hairloss using the following drugs: 3. Sertraline (Zoloft)

No 4. Paroxetine (Paxil)

No 7. Venlafaxine (Effexor)

No Don’t know about the others (yet) Monkeyboy ***risk all, go extreme***

Response:

I’m a 30 year old male already suffering from hairloss. I was thinking of starting to take antidepressants, but I don’t want to take a drug that will accelerate my already natural hairloss. Has anyone experienced hairloss using the following drugs: 1. Fluvoxamine (Luvox) 2. Fluoxetine (Prozac) 3. Sertraline (Zoloft) 4. Paroxetine (Paxil) 5. Citalopram (Celexa) 6. Clomipramine (Anafranil) 7. Venlafaxine (Effexor)

Response:

Question:

I read somewhere that the NPS considers invasive plants and animals to be a greater threat to the integrity of the park environments then the crush of human visitors.

This is one of the areas where full protection gets very hard to even define. For example, the Great Smokies area parks and some of the national forests nearby, are all either already allowing or considering unlimited fishing of rainbow trout. Why? Because the rainbow isn’t a native species, and they hope that eliminating it from some streams will preserve the native trout (which is technically a char anyway). Park service people are busily figuring out which streams have waterfalls high enough to keep rainbows from returning if fished out (as rainbows are mediocre jumpers compared to the native species), and which ones can’t be kept cleared. It may be ecologically sound overall, but it results in a crazy quilt pattern of fishing policies. I’m waiting for someone to suggest ‘improving’ a few waterfalls to make more streams ‘native species only’. Then there’s the asiatic brown trout, which is also non-native, but is unfortunately an excellent jumper…      Meanwhile, efforts continue to restore once native elk and wolves. Elk seem to be working, but keeping released red wolves alive when they stray out of the park area is highly doubtful, and if they can’t be established as a stable population, then the only way left to control the elk is to allow hunting. There’s also the question of whether red wolves count as a native species, since they all seem to have some domestic canine genes mixed in. Wolves may also help reduce the numbers of wild boar (again a non-native species). But nobody seriously thinks the wild boar can be eliminated by wolf predation…       The situation makes one thing clear. Once you let invasive plants and animals in, and hunt out a few native species, you have a seriously unstable ecosystem on your hands, and every step you take to restore a ‘normal’ ecology is a step into the unknown. All the likelyest scenarios involve other problems developing, and fixes for the fixes for the fixes being required. ‘Full protection’ becomes ‘full protection for native species’, with native usually meaning ‘before the white man came’. Planners don’t generally like to admit it, but they are not even trying to preserve the full diversity of the park’s wildlife, they are trying to set a higher threshold for the coming crash. They don’t expect to have a thousand species of wildflowers in the park in 30 years, but they think that proper management can cut diebacks to 20% or so, or in some areas 50%, and not taking these steps could leave us with 80 or 90% losses to some phyla. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yup and we also have to worry about plans to "localize" control of other areas of wilderness.  This is one of the few instances I can think of where National control of land is far better than state or local control.  Once local control is involved, local, economic concerns, logging, etc. takes over.  Then we all lose what we’ve been lucky enough as a nation to have had in the past. Jerry

Response:

 I still believe we have to recognize that National Parks are, by their very design, places where we have to balance the needs of recreation and protection. – Bob C.

snipped all sorts of agreeable stuff… Here’s the crux of the problem, not all people agree on what the "balance" should be. leads to healthy debate…too bad that’s about as far as it can go in this forum. — Paul Schnettler

Response:

     Don’t know if many have been following a previous post on protections for our National Parks but it seems by the responses that various animals and objects within our parks are not fully protected!  I was always under the assumption that our National Parks were these "Cathedrals" set aside, forever for the people and also for preservation. I think I agree with your sentiments in general, but disagree with the notion that National Parks should be set aside as "Cathedrals".

This was not a suggestion of mine——-simply an observation I had personally made and thought was true! This is more the purpose of other types of protected areas. A National Park is not the same thing as a wilderness area, although it may contain such areas. The mission of the NPS is stated as: "…to promote and regulate the use of the…national parks…which     purpose is to conserve the scenery and the natural and historic objects     and the wild life therein and to provide for the enjoyment of the same in     such manner and by such means as will leave them unimpaired for the     enjoyment of future generations."

Unimpaired for the enjoyment of future generations is a key phrase here. And as was stated in other posts, changing times, habitat loss and other factors may change the general "mission" of the park in future years. A key to the statement is the "enjoyment" aspect. Most of our parks have been created around scenic wonders of the landscape, scenic wonders which people naturally want to go see. (Everglades NP, designated in 1947, was the first park created purely because of the plant and animal life, with supporters admitting that many would consider the scenery to be "confused and monotonous" – having been there twice, however, I can tell you that the abundance of plants and animal life is itself a scenic wonder!). Personally, I think it makes sense to try to make the parks as accessible as possible (within the bounds of leaving them "unimpaired"). The reason I say this is that our National Parks are probably the best school room we have for educating people on the need for protecting our wilderness.

Exactly.  Even though I don’t like the idea of seeing animals in cages in zoos, I agree with the reasons——to educate, inform and enlighten the public on the issues of preservation.  Somewhere along the line, man may have to face the choice of either restricting events that may lead to the complete loss of a species, etc. or lose the species alltogether.  That’s a drastic statement and we as a nation are at this cross road with some species now but will we value our National Parks enough to restrict certain activities in a park that will cause negative affects by overuse? I read somewhere that the NPS considers invasive plants and animals to be a greater threat to the integrity of the park environments then the crush of human visitors.

I somewhat agree.  Vast numbers of visitors can be controlled, after all, you’re dealing with an "intelligent" being.  :-)  But mindless, foreign plants that may have no, local preditors but thrive in their new homes can choke out resident plants because these plants have to contend with the native insects, diseases, etc. I don’t know if this is true, but I can easily believe it given the the human visitation is mostly limited to very small areas of the park and is completely within our control. So bring as many people as possible to the park and give them that environmental education.

Yes.  The vast majority of visitors to the parks never see the "back country". Yes, we do have to be always wary of many of the privatization schemes and other ways in which those hostile to environmental concerns would like to "Disnify" our parks, but I still believe we have to recognize that National Parks are, by their very design, places where we have to balance the needs of recreation and protection.

Yup and we also have to worry about plans to "localize" control of other areas of wilderness.  This is one of the few instances I can think of where National control of land is far better than state or local control.  Once local control is involved, local, economic concerns, logging, etc. takes over.  Then we all lose what we’ve been lucky enough as a nation to have had in the past. Jerry

Response:

Jerry, I know where you’re going with your plea, and I respect that. But why attempt to turn something that was once and is no longer…wilderness, into what it cannot revert back to? It’s an oxymoron… congregating mass quantities of people into an area like Yellowstone renders it no longer a "wilderness" experience.

Well, the way I look at it is that the vast majority of visitors to the park don’t even get into the "back country"!  Many just drive the loops then stay in a motel for the night then head home.  So not that many people are spoiling the parks.  And the few who do make it back into the "wilderness" tend to take care of it.  It’s not a lost cause. Why not keep the truly unmolested areas as wilderness areas for all to see and experience, while leaving other areas not so pristine? Experiencing the wilderness is more of a mindset rather than an event. One (IMHO) cannot expect to funnel people in cars or any other form of mass transportation into an area and then proclaim it as a "wilderness past" experience. In almost every preserve…(I like that word better) type of area I’ve visited, it takes a day of hard paddling or strenuous hiking to get past the day trip mentality people, back to the areas where you really want to spend time exploring. In other words, you put the effort forth to find the "walden" that you seek, each seeker has his/her own expectations.

That’s exactly what I’m talking about. Again, IMHO the mere presence of people threatens the protections afforded the animals in the parks. Any man vs/ animal situation puts the animal at a disadvantage with regards to protections…it’s the human psyche that upsets the balance.

You’re right but just by having people present, doesn’t necessarily have to degrade the immediate environment for animals living there.  That’s where and why we have certain rules to follow to insure a quality experience in our parks.  Somethin’ worth fighting for. Jerry – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — Paul Schnettler

Response:

     Don’t know if many have been following a previous post on protections for our National Parks but it seems by the responses that various animals and objects within our parks are not fully protected!  I was always under the assumption that our National Parks were these "Cathedrals" set aside, forever for the people and also for preservation.  

I think I agree with your sentiments in general, but disagree with the notion that National Parks should be set aside as "Cathedrals". This is more the purpose of other types of protected areas. A National Park is not the same thing as a wilderness area, although it may contain such areas. The mission of the NPS is stated as: "…to promote and regulate the use of the…national parks…which     purpose is to conserve the scenery and the natural and historic objects     and the wild life therein and to provide for the enjoyment of the same in     such manner and by such means as will leave them unimpaired for the     enjoyment of future generations." A key to the statement is the "enjoyment" aspect. Most of our parks have been created around scenic wonders of the landscape, scenic wonders which people naturally want to go see. (Everglades NP, designated in 1947, was the first park created purely because of the plant and animal life, with supporters admitting that many would consider the scenery to be "confused and monotonous" – having been there twice, however, I can tell you that the abundance of plants and animal life is itself a scenic wonder!). Personally, I think it makes sense to try to make the parks as accessible as possible (within the bounds of leaving them "unimpaired"). The reason I say this is that our National Parks are probably the best school room we have for educating people on the need for protecting our wilderness. People who would dismiss me as a tree-hugger and not listen to anything I say will stop and take notice when they’re in a national park listening to a park ranger say the exact same thing. People of all political ideologies seem to have a great deal of respect for park rangers, and I don’t think I ever met a ranger who wasn’t a great deal concerned about protecting the environment. I read somewhere that the NPS considers invasive plants and animals to be a greater threat to the integrity of the park environments then the crush of human visitors. I don’t know if this is true, but I can easily believe it given the the human visitation is mostly limited to very small areas of the park and is completely within our control. So bring as many people as possible to the park and give them that environmental education. Yes, we do have to be always wary of many of the privatization schemes and other ways in which those hostile to environmental concerns would like to "Disnify" our parks, but I still believe we have to recognize that National Parks are, by their very design, places where we have to balance the needs of recreation and protection. – Bob C.

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     Don’t know if many have been following a previous post on protections for our National Parks but it seems by the responses that various animals and objects within our parks are not fully protected!  I was always under the assumption that our National Parks were these "Cathedrals" set aside, forever for the people and also for preservation.  Not so.  So, when you see lobbyists trying to further degrade the only public place that should be held in trust for preservation AND public use that does not degrade your park, speak up.  All Americans have the right to get a glimpse of what the American wilderness used to be.  And future generations should also have the same expectations.      There is plenty of public land outside our National Parks where people can use the land for something other than preservation.  Here’s a "timely" quote from John Muir that perfectly fits various "These temple-destroyers, devotees of ravaging commercialism, seem to have a perfect contempt for Nature, and instead of lifting their eyes to the God of the mountains, lift them to the Almighty Dollar". Jerry

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –      Don’t know if many have been following a previous post on protections for our National Parks but it seems by the responses that various animals and objects within our parks are not fully protected!  I was always under the assumption that our National Parks were these "Cathedrals" set aside, forever for the people and also for preservation.  Not so.  So, when you see lobbyists trying to further degrade the only public place that should be held in trust for preservation AND public use that does not degrade your park, speak up.  All Americans have the right to get a glimpse of what the American wilderness used to be.  And future generations should also have the same expectations.      There is plenty of public land outside our National Parks where people can use the land for something other than preservation.  Here’s a "timely" quote from John Muir that perfectly fits various "These temple-destroyers, devotees of ravaging commercialism, seem to have a perfect contempt for Nature, and instead of lifting their eyes to the God of the mountains, lift them to the Almighty Dollar". Jerry

Jerry, I know where you’re going with your plea, and I respect that. But why attempt to turn something that was once and is no longer…wilderness, into what it cannot revert back to? It’s an oxymoron… congregating mass quantities of people into an area like Yellowstone renders it no longer a "wilderness" experience. Why not keep the truly unmolested areas as wilderness areas for all to see and experience, while leaving other areas not so pristine? Experiencing the wilderness is more of a mindset rather than an event. One (IMHO) cannot expect to funnel people in cars or any other form of mass transportation into an area and then proclaim it as a "wilderness past" experience. In almost every preserve…(I like that word better) type of area I’ve visited, it takes a day of hard paddling or strenuous hiking to get past the day trip mentality people, back to the areas where you really want to spend time exploring. In other words, you put the effort forth to find the "walden" that you seek, each seeker has his/her own expectations. Again, IMHO the mere presence of people threatens the protections afforded the animals in the parks. Any man vs/ animal situation puts the animal at a disadvantage with regards to protections…it’s the human psyche that upsets the balance. — Paul Schnettler

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I wrote a previous post but have not seen it here yet.  I am going to post again. The autoimmune diseases are another class of diseases where the allopaths have no idea of what

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Boy did this one thing you asked ring a bell.I am tired of hearing a doctor or professional tell me , I couldn’t have felt the affects of the medication because its too early.What a bunch of bull.Too often the real truth is professionals and psychiaitry is practiced so unevenly its truly a sin!.Each time you ask someone else you get a different answer.I too have taken Buspar for a day and instantly felt more relaxed.But I don’t take it too often cause I believe its just a stronger version of valium.at least and at most too strong.You have to determine whats right for you.However incidentally I had a doctor tell me, to take it as needed , no need to take it for weeks.With prozac I didn’t need to take that stuff longer then a week (2 bloody noses) to know what I felt and didn’t need  anyone to tell me what I felt was real or not real. what hogwash.Still glad buspar is around but still waiting for better science. Tell daughter to try exercise, stop smoking and eat healthy .

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I do realize however that some meds do work after getting in blood stream , and some especially anti depressants and mood meds might take a few weeks.Every person is different but more importantly  listen to your body , and incidentally Buspar is not one of the drugs that HAVE to be in your system for weeks.

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My teenage daughter (17 years old)  is taking Buspar for sever anxiety and panic disorder. I was wondering if anyone can help me here. She has just been on this medication for nearly 3 weeks now. Her inital does was 5mg morn 5mg afternoon and 10mg beditime. That was the first 2 weeks. She did show some signs of improvement but not nearly enough. Her dosage has now been increased to 7.5mg morn 7.5mg afternoon and 15mg bedtime. Question here is i understand that it takes weeks for it to take full effectivness, but seems when she feels anxiety now and takes the medication within mins she feels somewhat better. Is this possible, or does it have to reach its full limits before it works? Hope you can understand this question. Thanks in advance!

Hi Dad! BuSpar will *not* block panic attacks. The meds of choice for panic disorder are those that *do* block panic attacks. And these include the benzos (e.g. Xanax, Klonopin, etc) and the SSRIs (e.g. Prozac, Zoloft, Paxil, Celexa, etc.). Sounds like your daughter saw a GP instead of a psychiatrist (who she should see for med advice on panic disorder). Feeling better within minutes of taking a  BuSpar pill is a *placebo* effect (i.e. you have "faith" it will help, and thus it does). Chip Before you buy.

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My teenage daughter (17 years old)  is taking Buspar for sever anxiety and panic disorder. I was wondering if anyone can help me here. She has just been on this medication for nearly 3 weeks now. Her inital does was 5mg morn 5mg afternoon and 10mg beditime. That was the first 2 weeks. She did show some signs of improvement but not nearly enough. Her dosage has now been increased to 7.5mg morn 7.5mg afternoon and 15mg bedtime. Question here is i understand that it takes weeks for it to take full effectivness, but seems when she feels anxiety now and takes the medication within mins she feels somewhat better. Is this possible, or does it have to reach its full limits before it works? Hope you can understand this question. Thanks in advance!

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I sympathize, Neal, and oh, Thank You for answering one of my questions! I took the 3 others, for panic/anxiety… Prozac, zoloft, and paxil, and felt worse within a week. When I was prescribed Buspar, I had no high hopes, but I swear within an hour, I felt a heaviness, rather than extreme panic. An almost calmness, maybe sleepy, and it made me feel better immediately. I was given 7.5 mg, in am and again at pm for a week, then 15 mg am and pm, since then, about 2 months now. It hasnt helped completely, but feel a difference. I’m sorry I can’t answer your question, but sometimes, just having someone share an experience helps, a bit. I have been told by therapist that I may need an increase, but I haven’t felt comfortable about it yet. (also, i had been told before that there are no side effects from paxil, zoloft or prozac, and i KNOW that there are!) so go with what feels right, and what seems to be working- even a little bit at a time.

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Hi, I was recently prescribed Buspar for genreral anxiety disorder and after researching it a bit, I find I’m very confused.  I have both depression and GAD, but it’s the anxiety that’s bothering me most at the moment. (It’s hard sometimes to separate these things into categories, btw).  My question is this (I’m a bit of a newbie poster but I’ve read a lot).  Buspar and and SSRI’s appear to do different things.  Anxiety is apparently caused by too much serotonin. According to the www.buspar.com home page (sponsored by Bristol/Myers/Squibb):          "Your symptoms of persistent anxiety may be due to an imbalance of          a chemical called "serotonin" in the brain. It is believed that          an excess of serotonin may be one of the causes of persistent          anxiety. Other anti-anxiety medications work on different          chemicals in the brain.          BuSpar works differently from other anti-anxiety medications –          BuSpar works on the "serotonin system" in the brain to bring          serotonin levels back to normal." But I thought depression was caused by not enough serotonin.  If this is true, how can a person have both GAD and depression? (a common complaint, judging from a.s.d and a.s.p-a).  The SSRI I took several years ago (zoloft) seemed to greatly allieviate both anxiety and depression and I thought the mechanism was by increasing the effectiveness of serotonin (by inhibiting reuptake and leaving it in the synapses longer). Effectively correcting a _deficiency_ of serotonin. I’m confused. Moreover, my pdoc (confirmed by postings here) says that Buspar is sometimes combined with an antidepressant (SSRI or other) to increase the effective relief — either of GAD, depression or both! They seem to be doing opposite things, wouldn’t they cancel each other out? I’m sure I’m confused because I’m oversimplifying things. A quick history – I’ve had depression and anxiety for as long as I can remember and the only medicinal success I’ve had was with Zoloft several years ago.  Zoloft helped tremendously, it seemed to knock out the anxiety and lifted my depression.  There were side effects (drowsiness, sexual dampening, some word finding trouble), but it worked.  I went off it after I decided I was feeling good enough to give it a try.  The depression and anxiety gradually returned. A year later I tried it again but it increased my anxiety so much (like drinking several pots of coffee!) that I was unable to tolerate it even at small doses and I gave up before it gave me any benefit. Right now I’ve been on Buspar for about a week (10mg/day – I’m sensitive to drugs).  I’m not feeling any better, in fact the main effects seem to be dizziness, drowsiness, headache and poor concentration, even worse than before.  And improving concentration is one of the things Buspar is supposed to help!  And as evidenced by this post, my chronic worry doesn’t seem to be getting any better either  :-)  I seem to be getting a bit of the bruxism/jaw clenching that I recall was a side effect of zoloft too. Can anyone out there, either fellow sufferer or pharmacist help me understand the mechanics of these drugs? Anyway, should I should I stick it out with Buspar for a while (it’s been one week) despite the side effects? How long until I know whether it’s doing anything for me? I do recall that I had similar side effects for a couple weeks with zoloft (even worse.. there  was nausea too) before they started to subside and my depression/anxiety started to improve.  This time around, I’m more skeptical (both from the posts here that say Buspar isn’t generally too effective and from my confusion about how this drug is supposed to work.) The doc says that we may try Buspar in combination with a small dose of an antidepressant if it seems to help at all.  Again, this sounds confusing, but I’ve heard people have had some sucess with this. Thanks in advance -Grisha

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(snip) But I thought depression was caused by not enough serotonin.  If this is true, how can a person have both GAD and depression? (a common complaint, judging from a.s.d and a.s.p-a).  The SSRI I took several years ago (zoloft) seemed to greatly allieviate both anxiety and depression and I thought the mechanism was by increasing the effectiveness of serotonin (by inhibiting reuptake and leaving it in the synapses longer). Effectively correcting a _deficiency_ of serotonin.

This is what I understood, too.  I’m on Zoloft. for GAD. I’m confused. Moreover, my pdoc (confirmed by postings here) says that Buspar is sometimes combined with an antidepressant (SSRI or other) to increase the effective relief — either of GAD, depression or both! They seem to be doing opposite things, wouldn’t they cancel each other out? I’m sure I’m confused because I’m oversimplifying things. A quick history – I’ve had depression and anxiety for as long as I can remember and the only medicinal success I’ve had was with Zoloft several years ago.  Zoloft helped tremendously, it seemed to knock out the anxiety and lifted my depression.  There were side effects (drowsiness, sexual dampening, some word finding trouble), but it worked.

Ah, I’ve ben wondering if my "word finding trouble" (<—good description!) is related to the Zoloft.  I guess maybe it is.   I went off it after I decided I was feeling good enough to give it a try.  The depression and anxiety gradually returned. A year later I tried it again but it increased my anxiety so much (like drinking several pots of coffee!) that I was unable to tolerate it even at small doses and I gave up before it gave me any benefit. Right now I’ve been on Buspar for about a week (10mg/day – I’m sensitive to drugs).  I’m not feeling any better, in fact the main effects seem to be dizziness, drowsiness, headache and poor concentration, even worse than before.

(snip) This probably won’t help you much, but I’ve been reading some of the posts from people on Buspar and wondering just how effective this drug is.  Four people I know were prescribed Buspar for anxiety/panic by their GP’s or OBGYN’s, and all 4 said it made them so much worse! They felt totally out of control on the Buspar, and did so much better on a different drug (Zoloft and maybe Prozac, IIRC).   Luckily, my psych. put me on Z from the get-go and I haven’t had any problems.   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Anyway, should I should I stick it out with Buspar for a while (it’s been one week) despite the side effects? How long until I know whether it’s doing anything for me? I do recall that I had similar side effects for a couple weeks with zoloft (even worse.. there  was nausea too) before they started to subside and my depression/anxiety started to improve.  This time around, I’m more skeptical (both from the posts here that say Buspar isn’t generally too effective and from my confusion about how this drug is supposed to work.) The doc says that we may try Buspar in combination with a small dose of an antidepressant if it seems to help at all.  Again, this sounds confusing, but I’ve heard people have had some sucess with this. Thanks in advance -Grisha

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Hi, I was recently prescribed Buspar for genreral anxiety disorder and after researching it a bit, I find I’m very confused.  I have both depression and GAD, but it’s the anxiety that’s bothering me most at the moment. (It’s hard sometimes to separate these things into categories, btw).  My question is this (I’m a bit of a newbie poster but I’ve read a lot).  Buspar and and SSRI’s appear to do different things.  Anxiety is apparently caused by too much serotonin. According to the www.buspar.com home page (sponsored by Bristol/Myers/Squibb):

Hi, Grisha, good to have you posting <some snipping Bristol/Myers/Squibb were, as one might expect, being a leetle selective with the facts there. As I understand it, no one really knows what causes anxiety disorders. Serotonin is one of the substances impilcated – but just one. It’s important to remember, for example, that a very fair proportion of people on this NG don’t use medications that affect serotonin at all and yet get very effective relief from what they do use – benzodiazepines. Arguably their problem concerns GABA, not serotonin. <more snipping But I thought depression was caused by not enough serotonin.  If this is true, how can a person have both GAD and depression? (a common complaint, judging from a.s.d and a.s.p-a).  The SSRI I took several years ago (zoloft) seemed to greatly allieviate both anxiety and depression and I thought the mechanism was by increasing the effectiveness of serotonin (by inhibiting reuptake and leaving it in the synapses longer). Effectively correcting a _deficiency_ of serotonin.

Exactly right, as I understand it, so possibly a clue why Buspar isn’t widely regarded as an effective medication by the majority of people who’ve posted here? I’m confused. Moreover, my pdoc (confirmed by postings here) says that Buspar is sometimes combined with an antidepressant (SSRI or other) to increase the effective relief — either of GAD, depression or both! They seem to be doing opposite things, wouldn’t they cancel each other out? I’m sure I’m confused because I’m oversimplifying things.

I simply don’t know the answer to this but perhaps one of the wetstuff techies can help us? <yet more snipping Anyway, should I should I stick it out with Buspar for a while (it’s been one week) despite the side effects? How long until I know whether it’s doing anything for me? I do recall that I had similar side effects for a couple weeks with zoloft (even worse.. there  was nausea too) before they started to subside and my depression/anxiety started to improve.  This time around, I’m more skeptical (both from the posts here that say Buspar isn’t generally too effective and from my confusion about how this drug is supposed to work.) The doc says that we may try Buspar in combination with a small dose of an antidepressant if it seems to help at all.  Again, this sounds confusing, but I’ve heard people have had some sucess with this.

Personally, I won’t tolerate side effects lasting more than about ten-14 days, but that’s just me. I worry about Buspar – not because I think it does people harm, but because I sense it is being prescribed as an alternative to benzodiazepines by doctors who have swallowed the myths and propaganda about "addiction" concerning the latter. It’s fair enough to try it, but to persist against the odds seems like bad practice to me. Have you tried the combination of an AD and a benzo? Judging by the posts here, that seems to be the most useful combination for those with coincident depression and I wonder if it might be worth discussing it with your doctor? Just a thought — Gary Cooper

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<snipped some good stuff : I just started takign BuSpar as an enhancer to the Effexor that I’m already taking.   In addition, I take klonopin.  The idea is to get me up to 15 mg/day. I have lots of problems with anxiety, but my main hope for BuSpar is that it will pick up the Effexor…. No longer searching for beauty or love, just some kind of life with the edges taken off. –Jarvis Cocker

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Bristol/Myers/Squibb were, as one might expect, being a leetle selective with the facts there. As I understand it, no one really knows what causes anxiety disorders. Serotonin is one of the substances impilcated – but just one. It’s important to remember, for example, that a very fair proportion of people on this NG don’t use medications that affect serotonin at all and yet get very effective relief from what they do use – benzodiazepines. Arguably their problem concerns GABA, not serotonin.

I’ve heard this theory several times before.  I take it that it is possible that people have a problem with levels of serotonin, and this is causing the anxiety, but the increase in the strength of binding of GABA (which is what the benzos do) has an effect that offsets the effects of the serotonin problem.  This might explain why people get relief from anxiety from both serotoninigic and GABA-related treatments.  (Or, maybe the reverse is the case, for that matter.) People like, e.g. Peter Kramer (and many other people I’ve run across in print) move from the fact that drug x increases y and drug x cures depression that depression is caused by (in part, at least) too little y. I just think that this is a bit quick.  It’s certainly one potential explanation, and perhaps the best one.  But it’s not the only one.  Again, it might be that the depression is caused by some other factor, z, whose effects are overridden by the effects of the increase in y. (Gary–not directed at you personally, and please don’t take me as being pedantic; I don’t mean to be.  Just a question I have about an inference that I see made all over.) <more snipping But I thought depression was caused by not enough serotonin.  If this is true, how can a person have both GAD and depression? (a common complaint, judging from a.s.d and a.s.p-a).  The SSRI I took several years ago (zoloft) seemed to greatly allieviate both anxiety and depression and I thought the mechanism was by increasing the effectiveness of serotonin (by inhibiting reuptake and leaving it in the synapses longer). Effectively correcting a _deficiency_ of serotonin.

Though BuSpar does work for some (just not many, it seems).  I think that this just shows that we’re a long way from understanding how these drugs cure depression and anxiety. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m confused. Moreover, my pdoc (confirmed by postings here) says that Buspar is sometimes combined with an antidepressant (SSRI or other) to increase the effective relief — either of GAD, depression or both! They seem to be doing opposite things, wouldn’t they cancel each other out? I’m sure I’m confused because I’m oversimplifying things. I simply don’t know the answer to this but perhaps one of the wetstuff techies can help us? Anyway, should I should I stick it out with Buspar for a while (it’s been one week) despite the side effects? How long until I know whether it’s doing anything for me? I do recall that I had similar side effects for a couple weeks with zoloft (even worse.. there  was nausea too) before they started to subside and my depression/anxiety started to improve.  This time around, I’m more skeptical (both from the posts here that say Buspar isn’t generally too effective and from my confusion about how this drug is supposed to work.) The doc says that we may try Buspar in combination with a small dose of an antidepressant if it seems to help at all.  Again, this sounds confusing, but I’ve heard people have had some sucess with this.

It depends on how bad the side effects are–BuSpar, like SSRIs, takes 2-4 weeks to really start working (if it does at all). snip  I worry about Buspar – not because I think it does people harm, but because I sense it is being prescribed as an alternative to benzodiazepines by doctors who have swallowed the myths and propaganda about "addiction" concerning the latter. It’s fair enough to try it, but to persist against the odds seems like bad practice to me.

I totally agree. Have you tried the combination of an AD and a benzo? Judging by the posts here, that seems to be the most useful combination for those with coincident depression and I wonder if it might be worth discussing it with your doctor? Just a thought

And, IMHO, the right thought.  I second the motion. Matt

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<some snipping for space People like, e.g. Peter Kramer (and many other people I’ve run across in print) move from the fact that drug x increases y and drug x cures depression that depression is caused by (in part, at least) too little y. I just think that this is a bit quick.  It’s certainly one potential explanation, and perhaps the best one.  But it’s not the only one.  Again, it might be that the depression is caused by some other factor, z, whose effects are overridden by the effects of the increase in y. (Gary–not directed at you personally, and please don’t take me as being pedantic; I don’t mean to be.  Just a question I have about an inference that I see made all over.)

<rest snipped Oh, I certainly don’t Matt. But, personally, I long ago realised that I hadn’t the dedication to go into the minuteae of the neuro-chemistry of this – particularly as it’s such a conjectural field anyway. To do so to any level that might satisfy me intellectually, I’d effectively have to take a DIY med. degree and even then I’d be banging heads with the experts, who seem hopelessly confused themselves – blown around the map of the brain like pre-chronometer navigators I almost hate admitting this to a philosopher but I trust my intuition and that tells me that Clarke’s Law applies here. Too many eminent pshrinks are talking about serotonin for that to possibly be the answer Maybe it is? Maybe it’s CCK? Maybe it’s dopamine? None of us knows so, for now, all we can be is engineers, rather than theoretical physicists. Sometimes I’m not sure that’s a bad thing, either — Gary Cooper

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <some snipping for space People like, e.g. Peter Kramer (and many other people I’ve run across in print) move from the fact that drug x increases y and drug x cures depression that depression is caused by (in part, at least) too little y. I just think that this is a bit quick.  It’s certainly one potential explanation, and perhaps the best one.  But it’s not the only one.  Again, it might be that the depression is caused by some other factor, z, whose effects are overridden by the effects of the increase in y. (Gary–not directed at you personally, and please don’t take me as being pedantic; I don’t mean to be.  Just a question I have about an inference that I see made all over.) <rest snipped

snip I almost hate admitting this to a philosopher but I trust my intuition and that tells me that Clarke’s Law applies here. Too many eminent pshrinks are talking about serotonin for that to possibly be the answer

Maybe it is? Maybe it’s CCK? Maybe it’s dopamine? None of us knows so, for now, all we can be is engineers, rather than theoretical physicists.

Yah, I’m certainly not claiming to know either –just looking at an inference Matt

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[...] But I thought depression was caused by not enough serotonin.  If this is true, how can a person have both GAD and depression?

There’s no conflict there. Psychiatric diagnoses are made on the basis of symptoms not pathophysiology. It’s not like having both diabetes and hypoglycemia. (a common complaint, judging from a.s.d and a.s.p-a).  The SSRI I took several years ago (zoloft) seemed to greatly allieviate both anxiety and depression and I thought the mechanism was by increasing the effectiveness of serotonin (by inhibiting reuptake and leaving it in the synapses longer). Effectively correcting a _deficiency_ of serotonin. I’m confused. Moreover, my pdoc (confirmed by postings here) says that Buspar is sometimes combined with an antidepressant (SSRI or other) to increase the effective relief — either of GAD, depression or both! They seem to be doing opposite things, wouldn’t they cancel each other out? I’m sure I’m confused because I’m oversimplifying things.

[...] _You’re_ confused? Think of the people doing the research. They’re making careers out of their confusion. If anything, you’re confused because you’re approaching the matter as though the antidepressant mechanism of SSRI’s were a settled question. (Come to think of it, this probably screws up the researchers’ heads too). Yes, SSRI’s increase synaptic serotonin — that’s known. What isn’t fully understood is what happens next and how it improves mood. Is it 5HT-receptor upregulation? How significant are the well-known ‘downstream’ effects on dopamine and norepinephrine? Three neurotransmitter systems have been implicated in the doings of buspirone. It is a high-affinity 5HT1A partial agonist. Already a pain in the ass, since it’s not always clear whether a partial agonist acts primarily as an agonist or an antagonist. It may be one or the other depending on many factors. So already you wonder: is the anxiolytic effect based on agonist or antagonist activity? Those who attribute the anxiolytic effect to 5HT activity seem to think of it as an agonist (shutting off of 5HT release), but if it is the other way ’round, antagonizing 5HT1A and preventing natural 5HT shutdown, is anything any less (or more) clear? Next, it appears to be a a2-adrenergic antagonist. Some researchers attribute the anxiolytic effect to this. But this also seems odd in light of the fact that the a2-adrenergic _agonist_ clonidine is famed for its ability to reduce anxiety, particularly in drug withdrawal. And a2-adrenergic antagonists promote norepinephrine production. A sympathomimetic anxiolytic? And then there’s its D2-antagonist activity. This has been dismissed as clinically insignificant, though it does appear prominently in the early research. It’s at least more consistent with what one would expect from a non-GABAergic anxiolytic. But it’s probably not the answer. There is no reason not to be confused. In fact, if you’re not confused, you are either delusional or a marketing executive at Bristol-Myers Squibb.

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  How does BuSpar work? It doesn’t.  BuSpar has no effect at all.

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… Exactly right, as I understand it, so possibly a clue why Buspar isn’t widely regarded as an effective medication by the majority of people who’ve posted here?

I have what might be a simpler clue…the doses commonly used (15-30mg/day) may not be high enough!  I think that if you can tolerate it (start low, go slow), it might be worthwhile to try going up to 90mg/day – especially if you have GAD and depression and no history of panic attacks (BuSpar really isn’t for panic).  30-90mg/day is the dose range for major depression (including melancholic depression).  (The original trials for schizophrenia used doses up to, get this, 2400mg/day, with an average dose around 1500mg/day.) -elizabeth

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, I was recently prescribed Buspar for genreral anxiety disorder and after researching it a bit, I find I’m very confused.  I have both depression and GAD, but it’s the anxiety that’s bothering me most at the moment. (It’s hard sometimes to separate these things into categories, btw).  My question is this (I’m a bit of a newbie poster but I’ve read a lot).  Buspar and and SSRI’s appear to do different things.  Anxiety is apparently caused by too much serotonin. According to the www.buspar.com home page (sponsored by Bristol/Myers/Squibb):          "Your symptoms of persistent anxiety may be due to an imbalance of          a chemical called "serotonin" in the brain. It is believed that          an excess of serotonin may be one of the causes of persistent          anxiety. Other anti-anxiety medications work on different          chemicals in the brain.          BuSpar works differently from other anti-anxiety medications –          BuSpar works on the "serotonin system" in the brain to bring          serotonin levels back to normal." But I thought depression was caused by not enough serotonin.  If this is true, how can a person have both GAD and depression? (a common complaint, judging from a.s.d and a.s.p-a).  The SSRI I took several years ago (zoloft) seemed to greatly allieviate both anxiety and depression and I thought the mechanism was by increasing the effectiveness of serotonin (by inhibiting reuptake and leaving it in the synapses longer). Effectively correcting a _deficiency_ of serotonin. I’m confused. Moreover, my pdoc (confirmed by postings here) says that Buspar is sometimes combined with an antidepressant (SSRI or other) to increase the effective relief — either of GAD, depression or both! They seem to be doing opposite things, wouldn’t they cancel each other out? I’m sure I’m confused because I’m oversimplifying things. A quick history – I’ve had depression and anxiety for as long as I can remember and the only medicinal success I’ve had was with Zoloft several years ago.  Zoloft helped tremendously, it seemed to knock out the anxiety and lifted my depression.  There were side effects (drowsiness, sexual dampening, some word finding trouble), but it worked.  I went off it after I decided I was feeling good enough to give it a try.  The depression and anxiety gradually returned. A year later I tried it again but it increased my anxiety so much (like drinking several pots of coffee!) that I was unable to tolerate it even at small doses and I gave up before it gave me any benefit. Right now I’ve been on Buspar for about a week (10mg/day – I’m sensitive to drugs).  I’m not feeling any better, in fact the main effects seem to be dizziness, drowsiness, headache and poor concentration, even worse than before.  And improving concentration is one of the things Buspar is supposed to help!  And as evidenced by this post, my chronic worry doesn’t seem to be getting any better either  :-)  I seem to be getting a bit of the bruxism/jaw clenching that I recall was a side effect of zoloft too. Can anyone out there, either fellow sufferer or pharmacist help me understand the mechanics of these drugs? Anyway, should I should I stick it out with Buspar for a while (it’s been one week) despite the side effects? How long until I know whether it’s doing anything for me? I do recall that I had similar side effects for a couple weeks with zoloft (even worse.. there  was nausea too) before they started to subside and my depression/anxiety started to improve.  This time around, I’m more skeptical (both from the posts here that say Buspar isn’t generally too effective and from my confusion about how this drug is supposed to work.) The doc says that we may try Buspar in combination with a small dose of an antidepressant if it seems to help at all.  Again, this sounds confusing, but I’ve heard people have had some sucess with this. Thanks in advance -Grisha

Grisha — That’s a long message!  I’ve posted on alt.support.anxiety.panic how SSRIs work to the best of my knowledge (someone already corrected me on a mistake I made).  But I’m not sure how Buspar works.  I don’t the the docs really know either.  Someone read it to me in a counseling book, and the authors weren’t too sure either. my advice:  If the shoe fits, wear it.  If it don’t, throw it out. — Geoff

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  How does BuSpar work? It doesn’t.  BuSpar has no effect at all.

Not exactly true.  Current thought is that BuSpar is ineffective for panic, although it may be better for GAD.  My doc refuses to prescribe it for panic.  However, I have recently spoken to a top anxiety specialist who uses it as a second-line med, and has had some positive results with panic disorder patients.  Not all, but some.  He admits he has been too lazy to write this up and get it into the literature So, while there are many meds that are more effective than BuSpar for panic, it is an option for those who have problems with other meds. YMMV hugely. Hirsch

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My pdoc seems to be down on benzos, he called them tranquilizers and seemed to regard them as masking rather than dealing with the problem.  He also said they’re addictive and sedating like alcohol (though this Buspar is having a sedating/groggy inducing effect)  This seems to be a common story. So I doubt I’ll have luck with him giving me the AD/benzo combination that you’ve recommended.  Shopping for another doctor seems just beyond me at this point. Obviously, I should probably be patient and see if the Buspar does anything for me besides side effects.  But if nothing (as seems likely from the consensus here) then what?  Find an AD I can tolerate, perhaps and see if I can suggest he prescribe a benzo?

If the BuSpar doesn’t work, I’d be firm with him.  It’s your body, after all.  Benzos are called "minor tranquilizers," though the connotations of that word probably are such that tehy shouldn’t be called that.  As to their addictiveness–this amounts to the fact that you need to taper off slowly if you’re going to stop taking them if you’ve taken them for a while.  They’re seldom abused by patients, and they almost never are such that you develop a tolerance to their anti-anxiety properties.  Plus, side effect-wise, they’re good drugs.  Most of the side effects go away after a few weeks (the grogginess, sleepiness, etc.) for most people.  Then the anti-anxiety properties remain. You also could go to your gp and talk to her about your situation.  Maybe she’ll be more rational about benzos. Good luck, Matt

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[...] But I thought depression was caused by not enough serotonin.  If this is true, how can a person have both GAD and depression? There’s no conflict there. Psychiatric diagnoses are made on the basis of symptoms not pathophysiology. It’s not like having both diabetes and hypoglycemia.

Thanks everyone for all the information.  You’re all great! I’m glad to know I’m not the only one confused here (I think I’m glad). The mechanism of buspar must be similar in some ways to zoloft, because my side effect profile is similar.  I’m getting jaw clenching and increased tension in my neck and shoulders (where I carry my stress anyway)  (is this norepinephrine?) similar to when I was starting on zoloft.  I’ve got a constant headache (listed as a common side effect) and am sweating like a pig.  Drowsy, dizzy no concentration, still anxious as ever.  No actual _beneficial_ effects yet (after one week) it seems.  It’s very frustrating to say the least because I’m told to be patient and wait for 2-4 weeks to notice anything.  Just my luck I’ll get the sexual side effects too (not that it matters at the moment . Some people have no side effects whatsoever to this drug (or to many of the others), so obviously this neurochemistry thing is extremely complex. I’ve never been on a benzo, so I have no idea what it would feel like to get immediate relief to this chronic worry, tension and anxiety.  I don’t have true Panic Attacks, I don’t think, where I’m paralyzed with panic and have chest pains and everything, but I do hyperventilate and get the tingly face and hands feeling, particularly in traffic, but sometimes for no apparent reason, it just seems like a slightly more intense version of the anxiety I feel all the time. It’s pretty clearly GAD with depression, now, I just need to find something that will take care of it. My pdoc seems to be down on benzos, he called them tranquilizers and seemed to regard them as masking rather than dealing with the problem.  He also said they’re addictive and sedating like alcohol (though this Buspar is having a sedating/groggy inducing effect)  This seems to be a common story. So I doubt I’ll have luck with him giving me the AD/benzo combination that you’ve recommended.  Shopping for another doctor seems just beyond me at this point. Obviously, I should probably be patient and see if the Buspar does anything for me besides side effects.  But if nothing (as seems likely from the consensus here) then what?  Find an AD I can tolerate, perhaps and see if I can suggest he prescribe a benzo? Thanks again everyone for your continued support and explanations (or approximations) of the chemistry behind these drugs. -Grisha

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Yeh Gary, I asked my Doc here in Australia about Buspar long ago – he laughed and said: "I don’t even prescribe that crap for *minor* anxiety, it’s basically useless for panic disorder. Benzodiazapine’s are safer and *much* more effective" He then wrote me a script for Xanax – and asked *me* to tell him how much worked – then asked that I ring his surgery for repeats as needed….

Blimey, Mike – that’s the second good reason I’ve seen for emigration to Oz in the past few weeks! I wish we had a few doctors like that, over here. — Gary Cooper

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<much interesting commentary snipped There is no reason not to be confused. In fact, if you’re not confused, you are either delusional or a marketing executive at Bristol-Myers Squibb.

And ain’t *that* the truth! — Gary Cooper

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<Good Stuff Snipped Exactly right, as I understand it, so possibly a clue why Buspar isn’t widely regarded as an effective medication by the majority of people who’ve posted here?

<More Good Stuff Snipped Yeh Gary, I asked my Doc here in Australia about Buspar long ago – he laughed and said: "I don’t even prescribe that crap for *minor* anxiety, it’s basically useless for panic disorder. Benzodiazapine’s are safer and *much* more effective" He then wrote me a script for Xanax – and asked *me* to tell him how much worked – then asked that I ring his surgery for repeats as needed…. Cheers, Mike from OZ

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Question:

PS……if you couldn’t tell by the X-File sig.

NIK!  You’re not Gizzie from the X-Files newsgroup, are you?!  I haven’t read that group for a long time, but I sure remember Giz! — Bunny

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NIK!  You’re not Gizzie from the X-Files newsgroup, are you?!  I haven’t read that group for a long time, but I sure remember Giz!

No hon…….haven’t really posted there (although I have lurked).  I just had changed from NikNik7 to MycatGiz cuz I was getting tired of 50 spam e-mails and 1 personal one. Plus I got paranoid that people might find me here and use it against me.  Of course, now that I have made it common knowledge and got over my little incident of paranoia I can say….. NIKNIK7 is also MYCATGIZ. Nik They say, "she’s crazy as anyone can be" That’s what they say, they say of me…….Sheryl Crow "On the Outside"

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Gee, can you say…….Frivolous Lawsuits. I’m not sure, let me try… Frivvawassa roosuts.

You’re singing backup for Baba Wawa these days? — Bunny

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Did I hear you say law suit?  Don’t just stand by and do nothing about it.  You know what it takes for evil to prosper … oh, give me a break!  I went thru it too but I hardly think it warrants a friggin lawsuit. Gee, can you say…….Frivolous Lawsuits. Nik

o.k., granted this *would* be a frivolous lawsuit, imho… but just barely.  i don’t know how bad your withdrawal was, but with mine had i had a steady job at the time (i was a student, and still am, actually) i would have missed about a week’s worth of work…and i like to think of myself as pretty hardy.   anyway, comisseration to any who have had to deal with coming off effexor. not anything i’d ever want to do again…i actually still have the occasional side effect (did something get permenantly fucked in my brain?) even though i’ve been off the stuff for over 2 years.  fun, fun, fun. -m.

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PS……if you couldn’t tell by the X-File sig. Hope it isn’t too long for you Mark…..I tried to keep it short just for you but am thinking of adding the entire lyrics to Stairway to Heaven and the 13 think? Nik They say, "she’s crazy as anyone can be" That’s what they say, they say of me…….Sheryl Crow "On the Outside"

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Hey, Nik, you’re not "niknik" of old, are you?

Nik They say, "she’s crazy as anyone can be" That’s what they say, they say of me…….Sheryl Crow "On the Outside"

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Did I hear you say law suit?  Don’t just stand by and do nothing about it.  You know what it takes for evil to prosper …

oh, give me a break!  I went thru it too but I hardly think it warrants a friggin lawsuit. Gee, can you say…….Frivolous Lawsuits. Nik They say, "she’s crazy as anyone can be" That’s what they say, they say of me…….Sheryl Crow "On the Outside"

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I could go on and on about the interesting and and accute withdrawal symptoms I have been experiencing, but if you are taking Effexor, or thinking about it you should try to search AltaVista for "effexor withrdrawal" and look at the nearly 200,000 hits that come up.  No you won’t find any warning listed with your prescription. Most of the doctors who prescibe this stuff don’t know about this side effect.   Did I hear you say law suit?  Don’t just stand by and do nothing about it.  You know what it takes for evil to prosper … These statements are my personal opinions, and should not be considered medical advice or a call for any illegal or improper actions.

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Don’t start taking this drug, you will be *sorry* when you stop.

It isn’t like that for most people that take the drug, for most it has very few side effects and withdrawal only has minor ones if any.  The three weeks of suffering you will go through are not worth it.

I had a lot more than three weeks. I had trouble all the while I took it and then coming off I had to go so slow that it took eight weeks just to get off it and some of the side effects persisted for six more weeks after that. Still though, for a lot of people Effexor is an effective drug with few side effects. I think that the difference in people’s reactions to it may indicate differing etiologies or pathologies or both for clinical depression. — bev . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . http://members.tripod.com/~Veb

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Don’t start taking this drug, you will be *sorry* when you stop.  The three weeks of suffering you will go through are not worth it.  Find and ask someone better informed that the doctor who gave you this idea.

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Don’t start taking this drug, you will be *sorry* when you stop.  The three weeks of suffering you will go through are not worth it.  Find and ask someone better informed that the doctor who gave you this idea.

I didn’t have any joy going thru the withdrawal of Effexor however I would hardly say I regret being on it for 2 1/2 years.  It *did* work and the only thing I told my pdoc was that I wished I had known how bad the withdrawal was….something he didn’t know of yet, either. If Effexor works for you or your doc thinks it might…don’t judge the medication just because of what it is like to go off of it.  Some people may be fortunate enough to find it works for them and even if for a couple years….isn’t that better than being depressed for a couple more years….even if it mean a couple months of being uncomfortable? Nik They say, "she’s crazy as anyone can be" That’s what they say, they say of me…….Sheryl Crow "On the Outside"

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Effexor is a mood elevator. When you go off this drug,

I got dangerous side effects while on the drug. Hell, we even increased the dose after they started; thought it had more to do with a situational problem than internal workings of the neural system. The side effects worsened during withdrawal but were present before withdrawal. — bev . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . http://members.tripod.com/~Veb

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Some questions: How much does Effexor cost in California if you have to buy it yourself?

I paid $80.95 for one months supply of Effxor ER  150 mG at a store called "The Medicine Shoppe" in California.  Prices vary, call around to different stores. Welcome to California, the land of fruits, nuts, and flakes. Charles

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I have very mixed feelings about Effexor…it was very helpful to me while on it, but insurance problems prevented me from continuing on the medication, and not having anything to fall back on I had to quit taking it. I did this in a phased withdrawl but it was still very difficult. I would only recomenned Effexor if a person knows that they will be covered by insurance and will always have access to it. Otherwise go with something that is cheaper (it’s VERY expensive) and you know you can get with no problem.

Oh dear. Effexor has been an absolute life-saver for me (literally).  In the UK, we pay the same whatever our medication, so that’s okay.  But I’m now moving to the US (getting married), and I’ve no idea what my insurance situation will be.  I can get 3 months worth of Effexor from my GP to take with me.  I am sure I can safely halve my dose and make that last for 6 months.  But I don’t know what I’ll do then. Some questions: How much does Effexor cost in California if you have to buy it yourself? Does anyone by any chance have an insurance company they can recommend, who will cover ADs? Has anyone mixed Effexor with any herbal ADs? Christine  Christine Daae on the Web   http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/~cdaae/

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                             Effexor withdrawal Hello there.  You guys talk a lot about effexor and withdrawal but provide few details, and I am CURIOUS… Could you please enlighten me? Thanks

Sorry…several of us have been through it and you forget there are others here whom are unfamiliar with the drug. Effexor is a mood elevator. When you go off this drug, and this is especially true if it happens suddenly (though in a phased withdrawl bad things can happen too), you can drop into some very frightening and VERY dangerous depression. If you have already had problems with suicidal thoughts they come back with a vengeance, and in my case I spent entire days either weeping or unable to do anything apart from lie in bed and feel terrorized. I have very mixed feelings about Effexor…it was very helpful to me while on it, but insurance problems prevented me from continuing on the medication, and not having anything to fall back on I had to quit taking it. I did this in a phased withdrawl but it was still very difficult. I would only recomenned Effexor if a person knows that they will be covered by insurance and will always have access to it. Otherwise go with something that is cheaper (it’s VERY expensive) and you know you can get with no problem. Jeff (Drop the x to e-mail)

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